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"'Cause we got the beat We got the beat We got the beat, yeah" Grab your royal crown and your Go-Go's album because we're joined by Tom Alan Robbins and Alan Seales to talk about the criminally underrated musical "Head Over Heels" We chat about the show's development, the reviews, and the future! It's a great episode with two great guests! Donate to Black Lives Matter here Social Media: Our WEBSITE Musicals with Cheese on Twitter Musicals W/ Cheese on Instagram Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com Merch!! Jess Socials Jess on Twitter Jess on Instagram Andrew Socials Andrew on Instagram Andrew on Twitter Brianna Socials Brianna on Twitter Brianna on Instagram Use our Affiliate Link Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brandon & Lorin review TV Guide's annual ranking of the best 100 shows on TV right now. They champion their favorites that made the list and dive into the prestigious Top 10. Elsewhere they review a whopping slew of Headlines, several new trailers, and the latest episodes of David Makes Man and Reservation Dogs; both ranked 15 and 40, respectively on TV Guide's list. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/astreamablelife/message

This is Ordinary Time, Proper 16, in the Church Calendar. Our general order comes from the Book of Common Prayer (1979) Daily Office and Scripture readings from the Revised Common Lectionary. We'll sing “Met By Love” written by United Pursuit throughout today's time of prayer. We'll read Psalm 34:15-22 followed by the Gloria Patri. Our Lesson is John 6:56-69. We'll say the Apostles' Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Collect of the Day. We'll then have a time of prompted prayer. If you have a prayer request please submit it at http://benwardmusic.com/prayerrequest. If you'd like to be on the email list visit http://benwardmusic.com/email. Visit https://patreon.com/morningprayer to give and support Morning Prayer monthly. Go to https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=LUAEY98ADT8UG to give a one-time gift. Art by Phaedra Taylor https://www.instagram.com/p/CPQzmKJFIWW/ Met By Love Brandon Hampton | Brock Human | Michael Ketterer | Will Reagan There is none none like You Who can know my heart like You do For all creation sings Your song I will join with them declaring Your glory (oh) We can run straight into Your arms unafraid 'Cause ev'ry time we need You we're met by love And we can lift our hands to heaven full of faith 'Cause ev'ry time we worship we see Your face Prayer of Confession Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Psalm 34:15-22 15 The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, * and his ears are open to their cry. 16 The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, * to root out the remembrance of them from the earth. 17 The righteous cry, and the Lord hears them * and delivers them from all their troubles. 18 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted * and will save those whose spirits are crushed. 19 Many are the troubles of the righteous, * but the Lord will deliver him out of them all. 20 He will keep safe all his bones; * not one of them shall be broken. 21 Evil shall slay the wicked, * and those who hate the righteous will be punished. 22 The Lord ransoms the life of his servants, * and none will be punished who trust in him. John 6:56-69 (NRSV) Jesus said, “Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.” The Apostles' Creed I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The Lord's Prayer Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Collect of the Day Proper 16, Rite Two Grant, O merciful God, that your Church, being gathered together in unity by your Holy Spirit, may show forth your power among all peoples, to the glory of your Name; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

WE'RE BACK! SARAH JANE IS ALIVE! This week Emma tells the horrific story of the rape and murder of Rachel Kiely and the absolute failure that is our judicial system. We also talk about Sarah Jane's car crash :(  Send her some love P.S Sarah Jane and Emma had to record this episode without our usual set up so we apologise for the sound quality!

It's one thing to hear what your prospect is saying and understand it. It's another to know its underlying intentions and meaning. Today's Just the Tip features how you can be a better listener. The words that you hear from the other end of the phone is just the tip of the iceberg. So what can you do to hear those hidden whispers behind those being said by your prospects? Gather 'round, folks! 'Cause today's video teaches you how you can be a better listener and inch yourself closer to bagging the

Dr. Gary Habermas - Near Death Experiences. Proofs. To watch the entire speech visit- https://youtu.be/ac9pF32gRxU 192,914 views Tactical Faith Dr. Gary Habermas gives a Tactical Faith Lecture on the validity of near-death experiences as possible proof against naturalism. Lecture was given at Southeastern Bible College.   Oh My Soul. By Casting Crowns Lyrics Oh, my soul Oh, how you worry Oh, how you're weary from fearing You lost control This was the one thing You didn't see coming And no one would blame you though If you cried in private If you tried to hide it away So no one knows No one will see If you stop believing Oh, my soul You are not alone There's a place where fear Has to face the God you know One more day He will make a way Let Him show you how You can lay this down 'Cause you're not alone Here and now You can be honest I won't try to promise That someday it all works out 'Cause this is the valley And even now He is breathing on Your dry bones And there will be dancing There will be beauty where beauty was Ash and stone This much I know Oh, my soul You are not alone There's a place where fear Has to face the God you know One more day He will make a way Let Him show you how You can lay this down I'm not strong enough I can't take anymore You can lay it down You can lay it down And my shipwrecked faith Will never get me to shore You can lay it down You can lay it down Can he find me here? Can he keep me from going under? Oh, my soul You are not alone There's a place where fear Has to face the God you know One more day He will make a way Let Him show you how You can lay this down 'Cause you're not alone Oh, my soul You are not alone Source: Musixmatch Songwriters: Bernie Herms / Nichole Nordeman / John Mark Mark Hall Oh My Soul lyrics © G650 Music, Pure Note Music, Songs Of Universal Inc.   HELP ACU SPREAD THE WORD!  Please go to Apple Podcasts and give ACU a 5 star rating. Apple canceled us and now we are clawing our way back to the top. Don't let the Leftist win. Do it now! Thanks. Forward this show to friends. Ways to subscribe to the American Conservative University Podcast Click here to subscribe via Apple Podcasts Click here to subscribe via RSS You can also subscribe via Stitcher FM Player Podcast Addict Tune-in Podcasts Pandora Look us up on Amazon Prime …And Many Other Podcast Aggregators and sites   Please help ACU by submitting your Show ideas. Email us at americanconservativeuniversity@americanconservativeuniversity.com Please go to Apple Podcasts and give ACU a 5 star rating. Apple canceled us and now we are clawing our way back to the top. Don't let the Leftist win. Do it now! Thanks.  

Imagine being 13 years old, standing in front of a judge, accused of the "crime" of being fat. Imagine the incredible pain you would feel as the judge announces that in the interests of your 'health', you will be removed from your family. But there's no need to imagine. During the height of the UK COVID-19 pandemic, two children were removed from their loving home and put into foster care. The ONLY reason was that both kids were fat. This harrowing story raised the ire of the fabulous Fat Doctor UK, who advocated and pleaded and offered to help educate the social workers, judge, and anyone who would listen, but her valiant attempts have so far been ignored. Two kids have lost their families, thanks to fatphobia. Join me and the fabulous Fat Doctor UK as we get UTTERLY fired up about this travesty of justice. This is a tough listen so please make sure you have adequate spoons. Show Transcript 0:00:12.7 Louise: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal? Getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo, make you wanna spit spo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. 0:00:40.3 Louise: Hello, diet culture drop-outs. I'm so pleased to be with you again and very excited about today's episode. Okay, so first of all, I wanna say a massive thank you to all of the listeners who are so faithful and loving. And I love all your messages and emails, so keep them coming. And if you love the show, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the episodes as they pop out on a roughly monthly basis. And if you love us, give us five stars because the more five star reviews we get, particularly on Apple Podcasts, the louder the message is, the more listeners we get and the quicker we can topple diet culture. And that's the objective here. 0:01:24.7 Louise: If you're looking for some free stuff to help you with your anti-diet journey, gosh I hate that word. Let's call it an adventure. Anti-Diet Adventure, 'cause that's what it is. It's rocking and rolling. It's up and down. It's not predictable. But if you're looking for a resource where you might be going to medical visit, you might be trying to explain just what you're doing to friends and family, look no further than the free e-book; Everything You've Been Told About Weightloss Is Bullshit, written by me and the Anti-Diet Advanced doctor dietician, Dr Fiona Willer. In it we're busting the top 10 myths that float around diet culture like poo in a swimming pool, about the relationship between health and weight, and we're busting myths left, right and centre. 0:02:06.8 Louise: It's a really awesome resource. It's crammed full of science and facts and it will really help steel you and give you the armour that you need to push back against diet culture. So if you wanna grab a copy, it's absolutely free. Like I said, you can go to Instagram which is untrapped_ au and click on the link in the bio and grab a copy there. Or you can go to the website untrapped.com.au and a little pop-up will come and you will grab it there. More free stuff, if you are struggling with relationship with your body during the last couple of years in particular, Befriending Your Body is my free e-course. All about self-compassion, this amazing skill of being kind and befriending your body. And it's like a super power, self-compassion, because we're all taught from the moment we're born, practically, to disconnect and dislike and judge and body police ourselves. Not exactly a recipe for happiness and satisfaction. 0:03:05.9 Louise: So, this little e-course will help build the skill of self-compassion, which is absolutely awesome because if we can learn to connect with our imperfect bodies, we can learn to inhabit them, to look after them and to push back against the forces that are still trying to get us separate from them. You can find the Befriending Your Body e-course from Instagram. So, untrapped_au. Click on the link, Befriending Your Body, it's all free, it's beautiful. It's just so lovely to practice self-compassion meditations. Self-compassion is built for difficult times. And my friends, we're in a difficult time. So, get hold of that if you haven't already. 0:03:47.6 Louise: Big shout out and hello to all of the Untrapped community, the Master Class and online community, who we meet every week. We push back against diet culture together. We share our stories, we've been supporting each other through the various challenges of lockdown and it's just a wonderful community of awesome human beings. So, if you're struggling and you want to join a community, as well as learning all of the skills of how to do things like intuitive eating, returning to a relationship with moving your body that doesn't feel like hard work. Understanding weight stigma and weight prejudice, relationship with body, all of that kind of stuff is covered in this comprehensive course, Untrapped, which I co-created in 2017 with 11 other amazing anti-diet health professionals. 0:04:39.9 Louise: So if you wanna grab a hold of this program and join our online community, please do and now's the time. We're meeting weekly. So every Saturday, I meet with the whole community and we have an awesome chinwag about everything that's going on. You also get all of the material. And there's other things that happened throughout the year like events and retreats. Well, if they're not scuppered by COVID. [chuckle] In usual times, we are able to do that. Well, if that's not being scuppered by COVID, of course. But in ordinary times, we do extra stuff. So find out more about Untrapped on the website, untrapped.com.au. You can also find a link from Insta. So, I think that's a run through all of the preamble. 0:05:23.5 Louise: Now, we arrive at the exciting time. I am so excited to bring you today's episode. You would have heard of the Fat Doctor UK by now, because she burst onto the internet a few months ago. And it seems like she's everywhere and she is loud and she is angry and she's a GP. So, here we have a very fierce, fat-positive voice, straight out of the UK medical profession, which is sorely needed. And I've just got so much admiration for Natasha and everything that she's doing. And I was actually listening to the Mindful Dietician podcast when I first heard Natasha being interviewed by the wonderful, Fi Sutherland. And during that conversation, she mentioned an awful situation in the UK where two kids were removed from their family for being fat. 0:06:13.9 Louise: And I'd actually seen that story and was so horrified that I kind of shelved it a way. But hearing Natasha talk about it and what she decided to do about it herself, it just inspired me. I just knew I had to talk to her. So this episode is everything. It's a long one, and it's a bloody rollercoaster. We go a lot of places during this epic, fantastic conversation. So you are going to laugh, you are going to cry. You're gonna cry more than once, because I know I did. You're gonna be absolutely furious, because just what we're talking about is just so horrific. We are in the 21st century and kids are being removed from loving homes simply because of BMI and a failure to do the impossible, which is lose weight and keep it off via the epic fail of dieting. 0:07:06.8 Louise: So look, this is really a challenging episode to listen to. It's a horrible story but the conversation with The Fat Doctor, Natasha herself is nothing short of inspiring. This woman is on a crusade. She has got heaps of other people involved in changing the landscape in a meaningful way. She is a real champion in the UK and across the planet, and I know you're gonna enjoy this conversation, but have some tissues close by and keep your slow breathing going to help contain the rage 'cause it's real. So without further ado, I give you me and The Fat Doctor herself, Natasha Larmie. So Tash, thank you so much for coming on the show. 0:07:49.0 Natasha Larmie: Thank you so much for having me, I am so excited. Due to the time difference, it's past midnight now and I've never been this awake past midnight before, so I'm really looking forward to this talk. 0:07:58.8 Louise: Oh my god, I am so impressed with your fired up-ness. [laughter] [laughter] 0:08:04.6 Louise: Tell me what is firing you up. 0:08:07.3 NL: Just in general or specifically about this case? 'Cause obviously a lot of things are firing me up, but I mean, obviously... 0:08:11.7 Louise: Yes. 0:08:12.5 NL: We wanna talk about this particular case that's firing me up. 0:08:16.3 Louise: Yes, what is this case? 0:08:17.9 NL: Yeah, what's going on with this case. So I think it was back in September, October last year that it happened, but I became aware of it a few months later, where two young people, one was actually over the age of 16 and his sibling, his younger sibling is under the age of 16, had been removed from a very loving home, for all intents and purposes, a very loving, happy home and placed into foster care by a judge simply because they were fat, and there is really no other reason at all. There was no other signs of child abuse, neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, nothing. It's just because they were fat and they failed to lose weight, a judge removed them from a loving home and placed them in foster care, and the older sibling, I think he's 16, 17, didn't actually have to go in because he was too old and the younger girl, she's 13, and she was removed from her home. 0:09:11.5 NL: And when I read about it I think I was so disgusted, it sort of broke... One newspaper reports on it in the UK, and it was several weeks later I guess, because the court transcript had come out, and I read it, I read the article, and I just thought, "Well, this is just the press over-exaggerating." And then someone said... One friend of mine sent me a text message saying, "No, no, no, just read the court's transcript. Transcript, read it," and sent me a link to the court transcript. I read the whole thing and within an hour I think I read the whole thing, and I was in tears. I was so full of rage that I just felt like something had to be done and started a petition. Have tried really hard to get answers, to push people to look into this case but unfortunately, haven't got very far because we're dealing with people who have very much kind of shut us down and have said, "It's not your concern. This is a judge who made this decision and there's nothing you can do about it." 0:10:05.4 Louise: Really? 0:10:05.7 NL: So I'm pretty fired up. Yeah. 0:10:07.2 Louise: Oh, god. Oh, I mean, when you say it out loud, like my whole body is responding. When I read the court transcripts last night, I put it off because I knew that I just probably would have a massive reaction and I was crying too, because this transcript is literally fucking heartbreaking. 0:10:26.5 NL: Tears. 0:10:27.2 Louise: That they're all admitting that this is... No one wants to be split up, they love each other but there's this stupid idea, as if everybody is completely unaware of science and weight science and how fucked dieting is. 0:10:41.5 NL: Yeah. 0:10:42.2 Louise: And how it doesn't fucking work. 0:10:44.4 NL: No. 0:10:44.7 Louise: And it's in a pandemic. 0:10:46.0 NL: Yeah, yeah. 0:10:46.7 Louise: If I fail to lose weight in a lockdown, when the world was going mad... 0:10:51.6 NL: And I mean, actually, the story begins I think 10 years previously, the story begins when they were three and six. These were two children, a three-year-old and a six-year-old who were picked up most likely because... I don't know if it's the same in Australia, but in the UK we have a screening program, so in year one, which is between the age of five and six, you are weighed and measured by a school nurse, and they... 0:11:13.4 Louise: Really? 0:11:13.9 NL: Yeah. And do you not have that? No. 0:11:15.6 Louise: No. 0:11:15.7 NL: We have. This is the National Child Measurement Programme, there's a acronym, but I didn't bother to learn. 0:11:21.2 Louise: Oh my god. 0:11:21.6 NL: But it happens in year one, which is when you're between five and six, and again in year six, which is when you're between 10 and 11. 0:11:29.0 Louise: Oh Christ. 0:11:29.2 NL: Two of the worst times to weigh people... 0:11:30.0 Louise: Correct, yeah. 0:11:32.0 NL: If you're think about it, because of course, especially around the 10, 11 stage some people are heading towards puberty, pre-puberty, some people are not, and so those that are heading towards pre-puberty will often have gained quite a bit of weight because you know that always happens before you go through puberty, you kind of go out before you go up, and that's completely normal, but they get penalised. But anyway, so I imagine... I don't know, because that's not actually in the transcripts but I'm guessing that at six, the older sibling, the boy was shown to be grossly overweight or whatever they call it, morbidly obese. They probably just measured his BMI, even though he was six, they probably measured it, which is just ridiculous 'cause that's not what BMI is for, and rather than looking at growth charts, which is what we should be doing at that age, they will have just sent a letter home and the teachers would have got involved and somewhere along the line, social services would have been called just because of the weight, nothing else, just because of the weight, and social services... 0:12:25.8 Louise: Just because of the percentile of a BMI. 0:12:28.5 NL: That was all it was. It was just weight. There was literally no concerns of ever been raised about these kids apart from their weight. And at the age of three and six, social services got involved and started forcing these children to diet, and they will say that's not what they did, they tried to promote healthy eating, but when you take a three-year-old and a six-year-old and you tell them... You restrict what they eat, you force them to exercise, and you tell them there's something wrong with them, you are putting them on a diet at the age of three to six, and we know, for sure, with evidence, you know, I know, and everyone listening should know by now that when you put young children on a diet like that at such a young age and you make such a big deal out of their weight, they are going to develop disordered eating patterns, and they are going to... 0:13:06.8 Louise: Of course. 0:13:07.8 NL: Gain weight, so... 0:13:09.3 Louise: They're going to instead, that's a trauma process happening. 0:13:12.2 NL: That's true. Yeah, it's... 0:13:13.8 Louise: A trauma to get child protective services involved. 0:13:17.8 NL: Yeah, and live there for 10 years, and then... 0:13:21.4 Louise: Ten years? 0:13:22.5 NL: Got to the stage where they took the proceedings further and further, so that they kept getting more and more involved. And eventually, they decided to make this a child protection issue. Up until that point, child social services were involved, but then, about a year before the court proceedings, something like that, before the pandemic. What happened then was that they gave these children a set amount of time to lose weight, and they enforced it. They bought them Fitbits so that they could monitor how much exercise they were doing, they bought them gym subscriptions, they sent them to Weight Watchers. [chuckle] 0:13:55.9 Louise: Fantastic, 'cause we know that works. 0:13:58.4 NL: We know that works. And of course, as you said, it was during a lockdown. So, Corona hits and there was lockdown, there was schools were closed, and for us, it was really quite a difficult time. And in spite of all of that... 0:14:13.0 Louise: I can't believe it. 0:14:14.9 NL: When the children failed to lose weight, the judge decided that it was in their best interest to remove them from their loving parents. And dad, from what I can tell from the court transcripts. I don't know if you noticed this as well. I think mom was trying very hard to be as compliant as possible. 0:14:26.9 Louise: She was, and even she lost weight, the poor thing. 0:14:30.0 NL: Yes, but I think dad almost seems to be trying to protect them, saying, "This is ridiculous. You can't take my kids away just because of their weight," and I... 0:14:38.1 Louise: Seems like he was in denial, which I fully understand. 0:14:41.1 NL: I would be too, I would be outraged. And it sounds like this young girl... I don't know much about the boy, but from what I can see from the transcripts, this young girl really became quite sad and low and depressed, and obviously, shockingly enough, her self esteem has been completely ruined by this process. 0:14:58.7 Louise: I know, I know. I really saw that in the transcript. This poor little girl was so depressed and getting bullied. And in the transcript, the way that that is attributed to her size and not what abuse they're inflicting on this family. 0:15:13.3 NL: Right. Yeah, really quite shocking. And then of course, the other thing you probably noticed from the transcript is there is no expert testimony at this court proceeding. None whatsoever. There is no psychologist. 0:15:24.0 Louise: Actually, there was. 0:15:25.8 NL: There was... 0:15:26.6 Louise: Dr... What's her name? 0:15:29.4 NL: Yes. You're right, there was a psychologist, and you're absolutely right. She was not an eating disorder specialist or a... She was just a psychologist. 0:15:37.3 Louise: She's a clinical psychologist. Dr. Van Rooyen, and she's based in Kent, and she does court reports for child abuse. Yes, and I can see her weight stigma in there. She's on the one hand acknowledging that the kids don't wanna go, that the kids will suffer mentally from being removed, but you can also see her unexamined weight stigma. And that you're right, where the hell are the weight scientists saying, "Actually, it's biologically impossible to lose weight and maintain it"? Because in the transcripts, they do mention that the kids have lost weight, failed to keep it off. 0:16:16.5 NL: Exactly, exactly. And it's just shocking to me that there would be such a lack of understanding and no desire to actually establish the science or the facts behind this. If I was a judge... I'm not a judge, I'm not an expert, but if I was a judge and I was making a decision to remove a child from a home based purely on the child's inability to lose weight, I would want to find out if it was possible that this child simply couldn't lose weight on their own. I would want to consult experts. I would want to find out if there was a genetic condition. I'm not saying she has a genetic condition. You and I know that she doesn't need to have a genetic condition in order to struggle to lose weight, that actually, the psychology behind this explains it. But even if you've not got to that stage yet, there was no doctors, there was no dietitians, there was no... No one was consulted. It was a psychologist who had no understanding of these specific issues, who, as you said, was clearly biased. There was social workers who said, "We've done everything we can because we've given them a Fitbit and we've sent them to Weight Watchers and sent them to the gym, but they refuse to comply." 0:17:24.9 Louise: I know. It's shocking. 0:17:28.4 NL: Yeah, it strikes me that we live in a world where you just can get away with this. It's just universally accepted that being fat is bad, and it's also your fault, your responsibility. The blame lies solely on the individual, even if that individual is a three-year-old child, it is. And if it's not the child, then of course, it's the parent. The parent has done something wrong. 0:17:52.1 Louise: Specifically the mother, okay. 0:17:53.5 NL: The mother, yeah. 0:17:54.4 Louise: The one with the penis, okay, let's not talk about him, 'cause that was absent. It was the mom. And the only possibility that was examined in this is that it's mom's fault for not being compliant, like you said. That's the only thing. Nothing else like the whole method is a stink-fest of ineffective bullshit. 0:18:13.5 NL: And there's the one point in the transcript when they talk about the fact that she had ice cream or chips or something in the house. 0:18:19.7 Louise: That's Ms. Keeley, their social worker, who went in and judged them. And did you notice that she took different scales in during that last visit? That last visit that was gonna determine whether or not they'd be removed, she took different scales in and weighed them. And they say, "Look, we acknowledge that that could've screwed up the results, but we're just gonna push on with removal." 0:18:43.0 NL: It was their agenda. 0:18:45.0 Louise: It was. It's terrifying, and it's long-term foster care for this poor little girl who doesn't wanna leave her mom. I'm so fired up about this, because the impact of removing yourself from your home because of your body, how on earth is this poor kid gonna be okay? 0:19:05.7 NL: This is my worry. How is mom going to be okay? How is that boy going to be okay? And how is that young, impressionable girl... My oldest son is a little bit older, and my younger son is a little bit younger, she's literally in between the two, and I'm watching what the last two years or last year and a half has done to them in terms of their mental and emotional well-being. And to me, even without social services' involvement, my children's mental health has deteriorated massively. And I cannot even begin to comprehend what this poor girl is going through. I cannot imagine how traumatized she is, and I cannot see how is she ever going to get over this, because she's been going through it since she was three, and it's not at the hand of a parent, it's at the hand of a social worker, it is the social worker's negligence. And what's interesting is a lot of social workers and people who work in social services have reached out to me since I first talked about this case, and they have all said the same thing, the amount of weight stigma in social services in the UK is shocking. It is shocking. It is perfectly acceptable to call parents abusers just because their children are overweight. 0:20:21.8 Louise: Jesus. 0:20:22.2 NL: No other reason, just your child is over the limit, is on the 90th percentile or whatever it is, your child is overweight and therefore you as a mother, usually as you said, it's a mother, are an abusive mother, because you've brought your child up in a loving environment but they failed to look the way that you want them to look, that's it. 0:20:41.0 Louise: Okay. So, that's me, right. My eldest is in the 99th percentile, so I am an abuser, I'm a child abuser. 0:20:47.3 NL: Child abuser, I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. 0:20:49.3 Louise: I know. [laughter] 0:20:49.9 NL: I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. And you know, the irony, my son's been really poorly recently and he's been up in... I mean we've spent most of our life in the hospital the last few weeks, and... 0:20:58.1 Louise: Oh dear. 0:20:58.3 NL: Went to see a paediatrician and they did the height and weight, and he is on the 98th percentile, my son has a 28-inch waist. He is a skeleton at the moment because he's been really ill, but he is mixed race, and we all know that the BMI is not particularly... 0:21:12.9 Louise: It's racist. 0:21:13.2 NL: Useful anyway, but it's massively racist, so my children have always been, if you weigh them, a lot heavier than they look, because I mean he's... There isn't an ounce of fat on him. My point is that BMI is complete utter bullshit and it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact that we've been using up until now is shameful and as a doctor, I cannot accept that we use this as a measure of whether a person is healthy and certainly as a measure of whether a child is healthy, because until recently, we were told you don't do BMIs on anyone under the age of 16 but that's just gone out the window now, everyone... 0:21:48.5 Louise: I know. 0:21:48.6 NL: Gets a BMI, even a six-year-old. 0:21:50.1 Louise: You get a BMI, you get a BMI. [laughter] I think it's not supposed to be used for an individual anything, it's a population level statistic. 0:22:01.1 NL: And a pretty crappy one at that. 0:22:02.3 Louise: It's a shitty one. 0:22:02.6 NL: It is like you said. 0:22:04.2 Louise: Yes. 0:22:04.6 NL: It's based on what European men, it's not particularly useful for men, it's not particularly useful for any other race, it's just useful perhaps. Even when it came out, like even when... What's his face? I forget his name right now, Ancel Keys. When he did that study that first look, brought in the BMI into our medical world as it were, yeah, even he said at the time it was alright. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it will do. It's the best out of the bunch. I mean he didn't even have much enthusiasm at the time. He said specifically it's not meant to be used as an individual assessment. And even the guy who kind of didn't invent it, but he sort of invented it as a measure of "obesity" and yet... And even he didn't have much good stuff to say about it. If he was selling the latest iPhone, Apple would have a lot to say about that. [laughter] I just... This fact that we've become obsessed and we know why this is. We know this is because of the diet industry, we know this is because of people trying to make money out of us and succeeding, very successful at making money out of us. 0:23:02.9 Louise: It's actually terrifying how successful this is because when I read this transcript, I've been doing a lot of work against the Novo Nordisk impact and how our modern oh, narrative has been essentially created by the pharmaceutical company that's producing all of the weight loss drugs, they have 80% of the weight loss drugs market and they've shamelessly said in their marketing that this is their drive to increase... That it's to create a sense of urgency for the medical management of obesity. And here it is, this is where it bleeds, because they're telling us this bullshit that it's going to reduce stigma. No, it's going to create eugenics. This is hideous what's happening here and I can't believe that the world didn't stop and that the front page of newspapers aren't saying like get fucked, like get these kids back. There's no outrage. 0:24:04.2 NL: No, there is none whatsoever. We got just over 2,000 people supporting the petition and as grateful as I am for that, that's just what the fuck, that's 2,000 people who live in a country of 68 million and only 2,000 people had something to say about this and, we... That's how much we hate fat kids and how much we hate fat people. We just don't see them as worthy and nobody wants to defend this young girl, nobody sort of feels sorry for her and I just... I can't get my head around this whole thing. It's funny because I didn't really know about it, a year ago I was completely clueless. It's all happened rather quickly for me that I've begun to understand Haze and begun to understand who Novo Nordisk was and what they are doing and what Semaglutide actually is and how it's going to completely change the world as we know it. 0:24:56.5 NL: I think this particular drug is going to become part of popular culture in the same way that Viagra is, we use that word now in novels and in movies. It's so popular and so understood, nobody talks about... I don't know, give me a name of any drug, like some blood pressure medication, they don't talk about it in the same way they talk about Viagra. But Semaglutide is going to be that next drug because they have tapped into this incredibly large population of people who are desperate to lose weight and they've got this medication that was originally used to treat diabetes, just like Viagra was originally used to treat blood pressure and have said, "Wow, look at this amazing side effect. It makes people lose weight as long as you run it. Let's market this." And the FDA approved it. I mean, no... 0:25:45.1 Louise: I know. 0:25:45.8 NL: No thought as to whether or not this drug is gonna have a massive impact on people in their insulin resistance and whether they're gonna develop diabetes down the line. I don't think they care. I don't think anybody actually cares. I think it's just that everybody is happy, woo-hoo, another way to treat fat people and make a good deal of money out of it. 0:26:03.9 Louise: Right? So, Semaglutide is... It's the latest weight loss drug to be approved by the FDA from Novo Nordisk and it is like the Mark II. So, they were selling Saxenda, Saxenda's here in Australia, they're pushing it out and this Semaglutide is like the Mark II, like I think of Saxenda as like Jan Brady, and Semaglutide is like Marcia. [laughter] 0:26:29.3 Louise: 'Cause it's like, "Oh my God, look at Semaglutide. Look at this amazing one year trial." [laughter] Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, like oh my God, we can make so much weight loss happen from this intervention. Why? Why do we need all of this weight loss, all these percentages? And, "Oh, we can lose 15% and 20%," and we don't need to for health, but okay. 0:26:53.3 NL: Yeah. The other thing that we have to remember about it, I don't think it's actually that much better. I've used all of these drugs in treating diabetes. So many years, I used these drugs. The beauty of it, of course, is that it's a tablet, and Saxenda is an injection. I'm assuming you have the injectable form, yeah? 0:27:09.9 Louise: That's right. You have to inject, and it's very expensive. 0:27:14.0 NL: It's extremely expensive, as will... Marcia Brady will be more expensive, I'm sure. 0:27:18.6 Louise: So high maintenance. [chuckle] 0:27:20.2 NL: Absolutely, but she is easier to administer. A lot of people don't like the idea of injecting themselves, but taking a tablet is dead easy. So, that's what makes this special, as it were, because it's the only one of that whole family that is oral, as opposed to injectable. 0:27:37.6 Louise: Well, that's interesting, because the paper with all of the big, shiny weight loss was injectable, it wasn't tablet. 0:27:43.7 NL: Oh, really? Oh, but they're marketing it as the oral version, definitely. That's the one that's got approved. It's brand name is... 0:27:51.3 Louise: Wegovy. 0:27:52.2 NL: Oh no, well, I have a completely different brand name. Is it different, maybe, in Australia? 0:27:57.1 Louise: Well, this is in America. In Australia, they haven't cornered us yet. I'm sure that they're trying to do it, but it was the FDA approval for Wegovy, [0:28:05.4] ____. 0:28:05.9 NL: So, they obviously changed the name. That's not the same one we use in diabetes. Clearly, they've had to revamp it a bit. Irrespective of oral, injectable, whatever, I think that this is going to... Novo Nordisk is sitting on a gold mine, and they know it. And it's going to change our lives, I think, because bariatric surgery is quite a big thing, and it's something that often people will say, "I'm not keen on doing." And the uptake is quite low still, and so, in bariatric... 0:28:35.2 Louise: In the UK, not here. 0:28:36.2 NL: Yeah, [chuckle] yeah, but bariatric surgeons are probably very afraid right now, because there's drugs coming along and taking all of their business away from them. 0:28:43.5 Louise: Actually, you know what Novo were doing? They're partnering with the bariatric surgeons. 0:28:46.2 NL: Of course they are. 0:28:46.9 Louise: And they're saying to them, "Hey, let's use your power and kudos, and our drugs can help your patients when they start to regain." 0:28:56.4 NL: Oh my gosh. 0:28:58.0 Louise: It's literally gateway drug. Once you start using a drug to reduce your weight, you have medicalized your weight, and it's a small upsell from there. So, I think this is all part of a giant marketing genius that is Novo Nordisk. But I'm interested to hear your concerns, 'cause I'm concerned as well with the use of diabetes drugs as weight loss medications, and I read about it being that they're hoping that people will take this drug like we take statins. So, everyone will take it preventatively for the rest of their lives. What's the long-term impact, do you think, of taking a double dose of a diabetes drug when you don't have diabetes? 0:29:43.5 NL: Well, first of all, they don't know. Nobody knows, because they've only done a study for a year, and just how many diet drugs have we put out there into the universe since the 1970s, and then taken them back a few years later, 'cause we've gone, "Oh, this kills"? If you've got diabetes and you take this drug because you've got insulin resistance and this drug helps you to combat your insulin resistance in the way that it works, you've already got diabetes. And so, there is no risk of you developing diabetes, and this drug does work, and so, I have no issue with the GLP-1 analogs in their use in diabetes. I think all the diabetes drugs are important, and I'm not an expert. But you've really got to ask yourself, if you take a healthy body and you act on a system within the pancreas and within the body, in a healthy, essentially, healthy body, healthy pancreas, you've got to ask yourself if it's going to worsen insulin resistance over time. It's actually going to lead to increased cases of diabetes. Now, they say it won't, but... 0:30:47.4 Louise: How do they know that? 'Cause I've read a study by Novo, sponsored, in rats, that showed that it did lead to insulin resistance long-term. 0:30:57.6 NL: Right, I think common sense, because we understand that the way that the body works, just common sense. The way the body works suggests to me that over long periods of time, taking this medication in a healthy person is going to lead to increased insulin resistance, which in turn will lead to diabetes. That is what common sense dictates. But of course, as you said, we don't know. We don't have a study. Nobody has looked into this. And it makes me sad that we are using a drug to treat a condition that isn't a condition. 0:31:30.2 Louise: I know, yeah. [chuckle] 0:31:32.4 NL: And inadvertently, potentially giving people a whole... 0:31:36.0 Louise: Creating a condition. 0:31:36.6 NL: Creating an actual medical condition, which we all know to be life-threatening if untreated. And so, I cannot fathom why... Well, I can, I understand. It's for financial reasons only, but I can't understand why there are doctors out there that want to prescribe this. This is the issue that I have. I'm a doctor, and I can't speak on behalf of drug companies or politicians or anyone else, but I can speak to what doctors are supposed to be doing, and we have a very strong code of conduct that we have to abide by. We have ethical and moral principles and legal obligations to our patients. And so, doing no harm and doing what is in your patients' best interest, and practising fairly and without discrimination, and giving people... Allowing them to make an informed choice where they are aware of the risks and the side effects and all the different treatment options. 0:32:28.0 NL: When it comes to being fat, again, it seems to have gone out the window. None of these things are happening. We wouldn't dream of addressing other issues this way, it's just fatness, because it's just so commonly, widely accepted that fatness is bad and you've got to do whatever you can to get rid of it. I've had someone tell me today that they are pregnant with their first child and they had their first conversation with the anesthetist, who told them they had to do whatever they could to lose weight before they had their baby. This is a pregnant woman. 0:32:58.1 Louise: Whatever they had to do? 0:33:00.1 NL: Whatever they had to do, and she said, "What do you want me to do, buy drugs off the streets?" And the anesthetist said... Wait for it. The anesthetist said, "It would be safer for you to use a Class A drugs than it would for you to be fat in pregnancy". The anesthetist said that to this woman. She told me this and I just went "Please just... Can you just report him?" 0:33:21.7 Louise: Shut the front door, Jesus Christ! 0:33:24.6 NL: Can you imagine? First of all, that's not true. Second of all, he is saying that it is better to be a drug addict than to be a fat person. This is no judgment on drug addicts, but you do not encourage your patients to use Class A drugs to lose weight. That's stupid. Imagine if he'd said that about anything else, but in his... And it was a man, in his world, for whatever reason, his ethics just abandons them all in favor of fat shaming a woman. 0:33:52.4 Louise: This is where we're at with, it's self examined. It's like there's a massive black hole of stigma just operating unchallenged effortlessly and actually growing, thanks to this massive marketing department, Novo. It's terrify... That poor lady, I'm so glad she's found you and I hope she's not gonna go down the Class A drug route. [laughter] 0:34:19.3 NL: She's definitely not, but she was quite traumatized. She's on a Facebook group that I started and it's great because it's 500 people who are just so supportive of each other and it was within a few minutes 50 comments going "What a load of crap, I can't believe this," "You're great, this doctor is terrible". But it just stuck to me that one of my colleagues would dare, would have the audacity to do something as negligent as that. And I'm gonna call it what it is. That's negligence. But I'm seeing it all the time. I'm seeing it in healthcare, I'm seeing it in Social Services, I'm seeing it in schools, I'm seeing it in the workplace, I'm seeing it everywhere. You cannot escape it. And as a fat person, who was in the morbidly, super fat, super obese stage where she's just basically needs to just be put down like a... 0:35:16.3 Louise: Oh my gosh, it's awful. 0:35:18.5 NL: And as that person, I hear all of these things and I just think "I'm actually a fairly useful member of society, I've actually never been ill, never required any medication, managed to give birth to my children, actually to be fair, they had to come out my zip as opposed to through the tunnel." But that wasn't because I was fat, that was because they were awkward. But this anesthetist telling this woman that she's too fat to have a baby. I was just like "But I am the same weight. I am the same BMI as you". And I had three and I had no problems with my anesthetics. In fact after my third cesarean section, I walked out the hospital 24 hours later, happy as Larry, didn't have any problems. And I know people who were very, very thin that had a massive problems after their cesarean. So there's not even evidence to show how dangerous it is to have a BMI over 35 and still... And then caught when it comes to an anesthetic. This isn't even evidence-based, it's just superstition at this point. 0:36:12.8 Louise: It's a biased based and the guidelines here in Australia, so I think above 35 women are advised to have a cesarean because it's too dangerous. And women are not allowed to give birth in rural hospitals, they have to fly to major cities. So imagine all of... And don't even get me started on bias in medical care for women. It's everywhere, like you said, and it's unexamined and all of this discrimination in the name of, apparently, healthcare. It's scary. 0:36:43.9 NL: It really is. Gosh, you've got me fired up, it's almost 1:00 in the morning and I'm fired up. I'm never gonna get to sleep now. [laughter] 0:36:51.7 Louise: Okay, I don't wanna tell you this, but I will. 'Cause we're talking about how on earth is this possible, like why aren't there any medical experts involved to talk about this from a scientific basis, and I'm worried that even if they did have medical people in the court, they wouldn't have actually stuck up for the kid. I found this JAMA article from 2011. It's a commentary on whether or not large kids should be removed from their families, and it was supportive of that. 0:37:18.0 NL: Oh gosh. Of course it was. 0:37:22.0 Louise: And in response to that commentary, the medpage, which is a medical website, a newsletter kind of thing. They did a poll of health professionals asking should larger kids removed from their families, and 54% said yes. 0:37:40.7 NL: Of course. 0:37:41.3 Louise: I know. Isn't that dreadful? One comment on that said "It seems to me the children in a home where they have become morbidly obese might be suffering many other kinds of abuse as well, viewing in the size of a child. 'Cause we've all gotten bigger since the '80s. We're a larger population and viewing that as abuse and as a fault of parenting. Unbelievable. I also had a little dig around Australia, 'cause it's not isolated in the UK, there's so many more cases. 0:38:16.9 NL: They have. Yeah. 0:38:17.8 Louise: And I think actually in the UK, it might be a lot more common than in Australia. 0:38:22.1 NL: Yeah, I can believe that. 0:38:23.5 Louise: But it did happen here in 2012, there was some report of two children being removed from their families because of the size of the kids. And the media coverage was actually quite dreadful. I'll put in the show notes, this article, and the title is "Victorian authorities remove obese children, removed from their parents". So even the title is wrong, couldn't even get their semantics right. There's a picture, you can imagine what picture would accompany... 0:38:55.2 NL: Well of course it can't be of the actual children, because I think it leads to lawsuit. I'm assuming it's a belly. Is there a belly? Is there a fat person in it or a fat child eating a burger? 0:39:06.2 Louise: Yes. [laughter] 0:39:07.1 NL: Sorry, it's either the belly or the fat person eating the burger. So, a fat child eating the burger, sorry. 0:39:11.9 Louise: Helpfully, to help the visually impaired, the picture had caption and the caption reads "Overweight brother and sister sitting side by side on a sofa eating takeaway food and watching the TV." So not at all stereotyped, very sensitive, nuanced article this one. And then we hear from Professor John Dixon, who is a big part of obesity Inc here in Australia. He told the ABC that "Sometimes taking children away from their parents is the best option." In the same article, he also admits "There's no services available that can actually help kids lose weight", and he says that it's not the parents fault. Helpfully, this article also states that "Obesity is the leading cause of illness and death in Australia." [laughter] 0:39:58.7 NL: I love it when I hear that. How have they figured that out? What do they do to decide that? Where does this... 0:40:08.4 Louise: They don't have to provide any actual evidence. 0:40:10.5 NL: Right. They just say it. 0:40:12.1 Louise: Got it. 0:40:13.0 NL: Just say it. 0:40:14.4 Louise: Diet. And I checked just to make sure, 'cause in case I've missed anything. 0:40:18.4 NL: Yeah. 0:40:19.6 Louise: The top five causes of death in Australia in 2019; heart disease, number two dementia, number three stroke, number four malignant neoplasm of trachea bronchus and lung. 0:40:30.4 NL: Lung cancer. 0:40:30.9 Louise: Lung cancer. 0:40:31.5 NL: That's lung cancer. 0:40:32.3 Louise: And number five chronic lower respiratory disease. 0:40:38.4 NL: So translation. Heart attacks, dementia... In the UK it's actually dementia first, then heart attacks. So dementia, heart attacks, stroke, same thing in the UK, and then lung cancer and COPD. Both of those are smoking-related illnesses. And I can say quite safely that they are smoking-related illness because the chance of developing lung cancer or COPD if you haven't smoked is minuscule. So what the people are doing is they're saying, "Well, we can attribute all of these heart attacks and strokes and dementia to "obesity". And the way we can do that is we just look at all these people that have died, and if they are fat we'll just assume it's their fat that caused their heart disease. 0:41:20.0 NL: To make it very clear to everybody that is listening, if you have a BMI of 40, we can calculate your risk of developing a heart attack or a stroke over the next 10 years using a very sophisticated calculator actually, it's been around for some time. It's what we use in the UK. I'm assuming Australia has a similar one, don't know what it's called there. In the UK it's called a QRISK. So I've done this. I have calculated. I have found a woman, I called her Jane. I gave her a set of blood pressure and cholesterol, and I filled in a template. And then I gave her a BMI of 20. And then I gave her a BMI of 40. And I calculated the difference in her risk. I calculated the difference in her risk, and the difference in her risk was exactly 3%. The difference in her risk if she was a smoker was 50%. She was 50% more likely to have a heart attack if she was a smoker, but only 3% more likely to have a heart attack if she had a BMI of 40 instead of a BMI of 25. 0:42:15.0 NL: To put it into perspective, she was significantly more likely to have a heart attack if she was a migraine sufferer, if she had a mental health condition, if she had lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, if she was Asian, if she was a man, and all of those things dramatically increased her risk more than having a BMI of 40. So it's just very important that doctors will admit, 'cause it's about admitting to a simple fact, this calculator we use to predict people's risks. So if we know that weight only has a 3-4% impact on our cardiovascular risk as opposed to smoking which has a 50% impact, as opposed to aging which is why most people die because they get old and let's face it everybody dies some time. 0:43:04.0 NL: So what's happening is the... Whoever they are, are taking all these deaths from heart disease which was likely caused by the person aging, by the person being male or just being old and being over the age of 75, your risk of heart disease goes up massively irrespective of your weight. So instead of saying, "Well, it's just heart disease", they've gone, "Well, it's heart disease in a fat person and therefore it was the fatness that caused the heart disease." And that is offensive to me to the point that now, I have heard... And this is awful in this year, our patients that are dying of COVID, if they die of COVID in the UK, it's actually quite heart breaking, it's happened to someone that I was close to. If they die of COVID in the UK, and they happen to be fat, the doctor writes "obesity" on their death certificate... 0:43:51.8 Louise: No way. 0:43:52.4 NL: As a cause of death. They died of COVID. 0:43:55.2 Louise: What? 0:43:55.5 NL: They died of COVID. That's what they died of. They died of this terrible virus that is killing people in their droves but people are under the misguided impression that being fat predisposes you to death from COVID, which is not true. It's not true. That is a complete gross misrepresentation of the facts. But we've now got doctors placing that on a person's death certificate. Can you imagine how that family feels? Can you imagine what it feels like to get this death certificate saying, "Your family member is dead from COVID but it's their fault 'cause they were obese." And how can the doctor know? How could the doctor know that? 0:44:34.2 Louise: How can they do that? 0:44:35.6 NL: How can they do that? And this is my point, this doctor that's turning around and saying it's safer for children to be removed from their loving home. Obviously, this person has no idea of the psychological consequences of being removed from your family. But it's safer for that person to be removed from their home than to remain in their home and remain fat. What will you achieve? Is this person going to lose weight? No. I can tell you what this person is going to do. This person is going to develop... 0:44:58.9 Louise: They even say that. They even say that in the transcripts. We don't think that they'll get any more supervision. 0:45:03.1 NL: Yeah. In fact, we're gonna get less supervision because it's not a loving parent. You're going to develop, most likely an eating disorder. You're going to develop serious psychological scars. That trauma is going to lead to mental health problems down the line. And chances are you're just gonna get bigger. You're not gonna get smaller because we know that 95% of people who lose weight gain it all back again. We know that two-thirds of them end up heavier. We know that the more you diet, the heavier you're gonna get. And that actually, this has been shown to be like a dose-response thing in some studies. So the more diets you go on, the higher your weight is going to get. If you don't diet ever in your life, chances are you're not gonna have as many weight problems later on down the line. So, as you're saying, we are living in a society that's got fatter. And there's lots of reasons for that. It's got to do with the food that we're eating now. That we're all eating. That we're all consuming. 0:45:55.1 Louise: Food supply. Only some of us will express from there the epigenetic glory of becoming higher weight. 0:46:02.0 NL: Right. And that's the thing, isn't it? Genetics, hormones, trauma, medications. How many people do I know that are on psychiatric medications and have gained weight as a result, Clozapine or... It's just what's gonna happen. You name it. Being female, having babies, so many things will determine your weight. 0:46:21.0 Louise: Getting older. We're allowed to get... We're supposed to get bigger as we get older. 0:46:25.1 NL: And then you know that actually, there are so many studies nowadays, so many studies that we've labeled it now that show that actually being fat can be beneficial to you. There's studies that show that if you end up in ICU with sepsis, you're far more likely to survive if you're fat. If you've got a BMI over 30, you're more likely to survive. There's studies that show that if you have chronic kidney disease and you're on dialysis, the chances of you surviving more long-term are significantly higher if you're fat. Heart failure, kidney disease, ICU admissions, in fact, even after a heart attack, there's evidence to show that you're more likely to survive if you're fat. And they call this the obesity paradox. We have to call it a paradox because we cannot, for one moment, admit that actually there's a possibility that being fat isn't all that bad for you in the first place and we got it wrong. Rather than admit that we got it wrong, we've labeled a paradox because we have to be right here, we have to... 0:47:18.0 Louise: Yeah, it's like how totally bad and wrong, except in certain rare, weird conditions, as opposed to, "Let's just drop the judgment and look at all of this much less hysterically." 0:47:29.5 NL: Yeah. And studies have shown that putting children on a diet, talking about weight, weight-shaming them, weighing them, any of these things, have been linked to and have been demonstrated to cause disordered eating and be a serious risk for direct factor for weight gain. And that, in my opinion, is the important thing to remember in this particular case, because as I said, social services start in weight-shaming, judging, and talking about weight when these children were three and six, and they did that for 10 years. And in doing so, they are responsible for the fact that these children went on to gain weight, because that's what the evidence shows. And there's no question about this evidence, there's multiple papers to back it up. 0:48:14.1 NL: There's an article published in Germany in 2016, there was an article published last year by the University of Cambridge, and even the American Academy of Pediatrics agrees that talking about weight, putting children on a diet, in fact, even a parent going on a diet is enough to damage that child and increase their risk of developing disordered eating patterns and weight gain. 0:48:37.9 NL: And so, as far as I'm concerned, that to me, is evidence enough to say that it's actually social services that should be in front of a judge, not these children, but it's the social workers that should be held to account. And I have written... And this is something that is very important to say. I wrote to the council, the local authority, and I've written a very long letter, I've published it on my website. You can read it anytime, anyone can read it. And I wrote to them and I said, "This is the evidence. Here are all the links. As far as I'm concerned, you guys got it terribly wrong and you have demonstrated that there is a high degree of weight bias that is actually causing damage to children. I am prepared to come and train you for free and teach all of your social workers all about weight bias, weight stigma, and to basically dispel the myths that obviously are pervading your social work department." And they ignored me. I wrote to politicians in the area. They ignored me. I wrote to a counselor who's a member of my political party, who just claimed, "Yeah, I'll look into it for you." Never heard from her again. Yeah, nobody cares. 0:49:44.0 Louise: It's just such a lack of concern. 0:49:45.7 NL: I didn't even do it in a critical way. I had to do it in a kind of, "I will help you. Let me help you. I'm offering my services for free. I do charge, normally, but I'll do it for free for you guys." No one is interested. Nobody wants to know. And that makes me really sad, that they weren't even willing to hear me out. 0:50:03.0 Louise: I can't believe they didn't actually even answer you. 0:50:06.5 NL: Didn't answer me, didn't respond to any of my messages, none of the counselors, none of the... Nobody has responded, and I've tried repeatedly. 0:50:14.4 Louise: So, this is in West Sussex, yeah? 0:50:16.7 NL: That's right, West Sussex, that's right. 0:50:18.0 Louise: You know what's weird about that? I've actually attended a wedding at that council, that my ex-father-in-law got married there. And when I saw the picture there, I'm like, "Oh my God, I've actually been there." So, I had a poke, and I don't know if you know this, but hopefully, in the future, when those children, C and D, finally decide to sue the council, that they can use this as evidence. There is a report from a... It's called a commissioner's progress report on children services in West Sussex from October 2020, which details how awful the service has been for the past few years, and huge issues with how they're running things. And it says, "Quite fragile and unstable services in West Sussex." So, this family who've had their kids removed were being cared for by a service with massive problems, are being referred to programs that don't work, and that there's a massive miscarriage of justice. 0:51:17.3 NL: And I'm glad you're talking about it, and I'm glad we're talking about it. And I wish that we had the platform to talk about it more vocally. I'd want to be able to reach out to these... To see patients... They're not patients, child C and D. I want to be able to reach out to mum as well, and say... 0:51:36.3 Louise: I just wanna land in Sussex and just walk around the street saying, "Where are you? I wanna help." 0:51:40.2 NL: "Where are you? And let me hug you." And I'm very interest to know, I'd be very interested to know the ethnic origin of these young people. 0:51:48.9 Louise: And the socio-economic status of these people. 0:51:50.2 NL: Socio-economic status, 100%. I would very much like to know that. That would make a huge... I think that I can guess, I'm not going to speculate, but I had a very lovely young woman contact me from a... She was now an adult, but she had experienced this as a child. She had been removed from her home and was now an adult, and she had been in foster care, in social services, for a few years, and had obviously contact with her mum but hadn't been reunited with her mum ever. So it wasn't like it was for a time and then she went back. And we talked about this. She was in a London borough, I shall not name the borough, but I know for a fact that her race would've played a role in this, because she was half-Black, half-Turkish. 0:52:39.2 NL: And there're a few things in that court transcript that caught my attention. I don't know if you noticed there was a mention of the smell from the kitchen, and they didn't specifically said, you know, mould, or you know that there was mould in the kitchen, or there was something in the kitchen that was rotting, something like that, 'cause I think they would have specified. It was just a smell. And that made me wonder, is this to do with just the fact that maybe this family lived in poor housing or was it the type of food that they were cooking for their children? Is there a language issue, is there a cultural issue. What exactly is going on? 'cause we don't know that from the court transcript, so that's another thing that... Another piece of the puzzle that I would really be interested in. Is this a white wealthy family? Probably not. I don't think they are. 0:53:27.2 Louise: Yeah it didn't struck me that way either. Yeah, yeah this is potentially marginalization and racism happening that... 0:53:35.1 NL: Yeah. 0:53:35.9 Louise: And here in Australia, we've got an awful history of how we treated First Nations people and we removed indigenous kids from their families, on the basis of like we know better, and I just... Yeah honestly, elements of that here, like we know better. 0:53:51.5 NL: Yes. Right, this is it. We know better than you have to parent your child. I am have always been a big believer of not restricting my children's feed in any way. I was restricted, and I made the decision when we had the kids that there would just be no restriction at all. I have like been one of those parents that had just been like, that's the draw with all the sweet treats in it. They're not called treats, they're just sweets and chocolate and candy, there it is. It's within reachable distance. Help yourself whenever you want, ice pops in the freezer, there's no like you have to eat that to get your pudding. None of that. 0:54:27.6 NL: My kids have just been able to eat whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, I never restricted anything, I wanted them to be intuitive eaters. And of course they are, and what amazes me is now my teenage son, when we were on lockdown, and he was like homeschooled, he would come downstairs, make himself a breakfast, and there was like three portions of fruit and veg on his plate, and not because someone told him that he had to, but just because he knew it was good for him and he knew it was healthy, there was like a selection, his plate was always multi-colored, he was drinking plenty of water. He would go and cook it, he cooked himself lunch, he knew that he can eat sweets and crisps and chocolate whenever he wanted to, and he didn't, he just didn't. Like it was there, that drawn, it gets emptied out because it's become a bit... But no, they don't take it, and sometimes they do, 'cause they fancy it, but most of the times they don't. And that is my decision as a parent, I believe that I have done what is in their best interest, I believe that I will prove over time that this has had a much better impact on their health, not restricting them. 0:55:26.4 Louise: Absolutely, Yeah. 0:55:27.6 NL: But the point is they're my children, and it was my damn choice, and even if my child is on the 98th percentile, it's still my damn choice, nobody gets to tell me how to parent my child. That is my child, I know what's best for them. And I believe that my children are going to prove the fact that this is a great way of parenting, and I know that actually most of their friends who had, were not allowed to eat the food that they wanted to eat used to come over to our house and just kind of like wide eyed. And they binge, they binge, you know, to the point that I have to restrict them and say I actually I don't think mom would like that if I gave that to you. 0:56:00.0 Louise: We know that that's what we do when we put kids in food deserts, we breed binge eating and food insecurity, and trying to teach our kids to have a relaxed and enjoyable relationship with food is what intuitive eating is all about. And without a side salad of fat phobia, we're not doing this relationship with food stuff in order to make sure you're thin, we're doing this to make sure that you feel really safe and secure in the world, and you know health is sometimes controllable and sometimes not, and this kind of mad obsession we have with controlling our food and the ability it will give us like everlasting life is weird. 0:56:39.0 NL: Yeah. 0:56:39.7 Louise: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad you're parenting those kids in that way and I've noticed the same thing with my kids. Like my kids, we are a family of intuitive eaters and it's just really relaxed, and there's variety, and they go through these little love affairs with foods, and it's really cute. [chuckle] And they're developing their palettes, and their size is not up to me. 0:57:05.8 NL: Yeah. 0:57:06.4 Louise: Yeah. 0:57:07.4 NL: Right. 0:57:08.1 Louise: It's up to me to help them thrive. 0:57:10.7 NL: That's right. And when people talk about health, I often hear people talking about health, and whenever they ask me that question, you know, surely you can agree that being fat is not good for your health, well, I'll always kinda go, "Oh Really? Could you just do me a favor here and define health?" Because I spend my whole life trying to define health, and I'm not sure that I've got there yet, but I can tell you without a doubt that this for me, in my personal experience as a doctor... And I've been a doctor for a long time now, and I see patients all the time, and I'm telling you that in my experience, the most important thing for your health is your mental and emotional well-being, that if you are not mentally and emotionally well, it doesn't matter how good your cholesterol is, it doesn't matter whether or not you've got diabetes, that is irrelevant, because if you're not mental and emotional... I'm not saying that 'cause you won't enjoy life, I mean, it has an impact on your physical health. And I spend most of my day dealing with either people who are depressed or anxious, and that's what they've presented with, or they've presented with symptoms that are being made worse or exacerbated by their mental and emotional pull, mental and emotional well-being. 0:58:19.1 NL: So giving my children the best start in life has always been about giving them a good mental and emotional well, start. It's about giving... It's not just teaching them resilience, but teaching them to love themselves, to be happy with who they are, to not feel judged or to not feel that they are anything other than the brilliant human beings that they are. And I believe that that is what's going to stand them in the greatest... In the greatest... I've lost my words now, but that's what's gonna get them through life, and that's why they're going to be healthy. And how much sugar they eat actually is quite irrelevant compared to the fact that they love themselves and their bodies, and they are great self-esteem, we all know that happiness is... Happiness is the most important thing when it comes to quality of life and happiness is the most important thing when it comes to length of life and illness, all of it. Happiness trumps everything else. 0:59:07.0 Louise: And to you know what that comes from. Happiness comes from a sense of belonging, belonging in our bodies, belonging in ourselves, belonging in the community, and all of this othering that's happening with the message that everyone belongs unless they're fat. That sucks ass and that needs to stop. This poor little kid when, in the transcript it mentioned that they found a suicide note... 0:59:29.9 NL: Yes. 0:59:30.1 Louise: And some pills. And she's fucking like 13. 0:59:34.8 NL: Yeah, and they called it a cry for help. 0:59:36.0 Louise: They called it cry for help 'cause of her body. 0:59:38.1 NL: Yeah. 0:59:38.4 Louise: They didn't recognize it since they've been sniffing around threatening to take her off her mom, and because she's being bullied for her size at school. This is like a calamitous failure to see the impact of weight stigma. 0:59:52.9 NL: She's been told that it's her fault that she's been taken away from her mum. They had told her that because she didn't succeed in losing weight, that she doesn't get to live with her mother anymore. Can you imagine? 1:00:02.4 Louise: So her mom. I can't even wrap my head around that. I can't. 1:00:07.2 NL: Well, she feels suicidal, I think I would too. I felt suicidal at her age and for a lot less. It's terrible, it's terrible. And I hope she's hanging on and I hope that... 1:00:14.6 Louise: I wanna tell her that she is awesome. 1:00:17.4 NL: Yes. 1:00:17.9 Louise: If she ever gets to listen to this. But I know the impact. So like when I was 11, my mom left and I remember how much it tore out my heart. 1:00:26.4 NL: Yeah. 1:00:26.9 Louise: You're 11... 1:00:27.5 NL: Yeah. 1:00:28.3 Louise: 12, 13. This is not the time to do this to kids, and this whole idea... The judge said something like, "Oh, you know, gosh, this is gonna be bad... " But here it is, I will read it to you. This is... She actually wrote a letter to the kids. 1:00:42.5 NL: Oh, gosh. 1:00:43.7 Louise: "I know you will feel that in making this o

Imagine being 13 years old, standing in front of a judge, accused of the "crime" of being fat. Imagine the incredible pain you would feel as the judge announces that in the interests of your 'health', you will be removed from your family. But there's no need to imagine. During the height of the UK COVID-19 pandemic, two children were removed from their loving home and put into foster care. The ONLY reason was that both kids were fat. This harrowing story raised the ire of the fabulous Fat Doctor UK, who advocated and pleaded and offered to help educate the social workers, judge, and anyone who would listen, but her valiant attempts have so far been ignored. Two kids have lost their families, thanks to fatphobia. Join me and the fabulous Fat Doctor UK as we get UTTERLY fired up about this travesty of justice. This is a tough listen so please make sure you have adequate spoons. Show Transcript 0:00:12.7 Louise: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal? Getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo, make you wanna spit spo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. 0:00:40.3 Louise: Hello, diet culture drop-outs. I'm so pleased to be with you again and very excited about today's episode. Okay, so first of all, I wanna say a massive thank you to all of the listeners who are so faithful and loving. And I love all your messages and emails, so keep them coming. And if you love the show, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the episodes as they pop out on a roughly monthly basis. And if you love us, give us five stars because the more five star reviews we get, particularly on Apple Podcasts, the louder the message is, the more listeners we get and the quicker we can topple diet culture. And that's the objective here. 0:01:24.7 Louise: If you're looking for some free stuff to help you with your anti-diet journey, gosh I hate that word. Let's call it an adventure. Anti-Diet Adventure, 'cause that's what it is. It's rocking and rolling. It's up and down. It's not predictable. But if you're looking for a resource where you might be going to medical visit, you might be trying to explain just what you're doing to friends and family, look no further than the free e-book; Everything You've Been Told About Weightloss Is Bullshit, written by me and the Anti-Diet Advanced doctor dietician, Dr Fiona Willer. In it we're busting the top 10 myths that float around diet culture like poo in a swimming pool, about the relationship between health and weight, and we're busting myths left, right and centre. 0:02:06.8 Louise: It's a really awesome resource. It's crammed full of science and facts and it will really help steel you and give you the armour that you need to push back against diet culture. So if you wanna grab a copy, it's absolutely free. Like I said, you can go to Instagram which is untrapped_ au and click on the link in the bio and grab a copy there. Or you can go to the website untrapped.com.au and a little pop-up will come and you will grab it there. More free stuff, if you are struggling with relationship with your body during the last couple of years in particular, Befriending Your Body is my free e-course. All about self-compassion, this amazing skill of being kind and befriending your body. And it's like a super power, self-compassion, because we're all taught from the moment we're born, practically, to disconnect and dislike and judge and body police ourselves. Not exactly a recipe for happiness and satisfaction. 0:03:05.9 Louise: So, this little e-course will help build the skill of self-compassion, which is absolutely awesome because if we can learn to connect with our imperfect bodies, we can learn to inhabit them, to look after them and to push back against the forces that are still trying to get us separate from them. You can find the Befriending Your Body e-course from Instagram. So, untrapped_au. Click on the link, Befriending Your Body, it's all free, it's beautiful. It's just so lovely to practice self-compassion meditations. Self-compassion is built for difficult times. And my friends, we're in a difficult time. So, get hold of that if you haven't already. 0:03:47.6 Louise: Big shout out and hello to all of the Untrapped community, the Master Class and online community, who we meet every week. We push back against diet culture together. We share our stories, we've been supporting each other through the various challenges of lockdown and it's just a wonderful community of awesome human beings. So, if you're struggling and you want to join a community, as well as learning all of the skills of how to do things like intuitive eating, returning to a relationship with moving your body that doesn't feel like hard work. Understanding weight stigma and weight prejudice, relationship with body, all of that kind of stuff is covered in this comprehensive course, Untrapped, which I co-created in 2017 with 11 other amazing anti-diet health professionals. 0:04:39.9 Louise: So if you wanna grab a hold of this program and join our online community, please do and now's the time. We're meeting weekly. So every Saturday, I meet with the whole community and we have an awesome chinwag about everything that's going on. You also get all of the material. And there's other things that happened throughout the year like events and retreats. Well, if they're not scuppered by COVID. [chuckle] In usual times, we are able to do that. Well, if that's not being scuppered by COVID, of course. But in ordinary times, we do extra stuff. So find out more about Untrapped on the website, untrapped.com.au. You can also find a link from Insta. So, I think that's a run through all of the preamble. 0:05:23.5 Louise: Now, we arrive at the exciting time. I am so excited to bring you today's episode. You would have heard of the Fat Doctor UK by now, because she burst onto the internet a few months ago. And it seems like she's everywhere and she is loud and she is angry and she's a GP. So, here we have a very fierce, fat-positive voice, straight out of the UK medical profession, which is sorely needed. And I've just got so much admiration for Natasha and everything that she's doing. And I was actually listening to the Mindful Dietician podcast when I first heard Natasha being interviewed by the wonderful, Fi Sutherland. And during that conversation, she mentioned an awful situation in the UK where two kids were removed from their family for being fat. 0:06:13.9 Louise: And I'd actually seen that story and was so horrified that I kind of shelved it a way. But hearing Natasha talk about it and what she decided to do about it herself, it just inspired me. I just knew I had to talk to her. So this episode is everything. It's a long one, and it's a bloody rollercoaster. We go a lot of places during this epic, fantastic conversation. So you are going to laugh, you are going to cry. You're gonna cry more than once, because I know I did. You're gonna be absolutely furious, because just what we're talking about is just so horrific. We are in the 21st century and kids are being removed from loving homes simply because of BMI and a failure to do the impossible, which is lose weight and keep it off via the epic fail of dieting. 0:07:06.8 Louise: So look, this is really a challenging episode to listen to. It's a horrible story but the conversation with The Fat Doctor, Natasha herself is nothing short of inspiring. This woman is on a crusade. She has got heaps of other people involved in changing the landscape in a meaningful way. She is a real champion in the UK and across the planet, and I know you're gonna enjoy this conversation, but have some tissues close by and keep your slow breathing going to help contain the rage 'cause it's real. So without further ado, I give you me and The Fat Doctor herself, Natasha Larmie. So Tash, thank you so much for coming on the show. 0:07:49.0 Natasha Larmie: Thank you so much for having me, I am so excited. Due to the time difference, it's past midnight now and I've never been this awake past midnight before, so I'm really looking forward to this talk. 0:07:58.8 Louise: Oh my god, I am so impressed with your fired up-ness. [laughter] [laughter] 0:08:04.6 Louise: Tell me what is firing you up. 0:08:07.3 NL: Just in general or specifically about this case? 'Cause obviously a lot of things are firing me up, but I mean, obviously... 0:08:11.7 Louise: Yes. 0:08:12.5 NL: We wanna talk about this particular case that's firing me up. 0:08:16.3 Louise: Yes, what is this case? 0:08:17.9 NL: Yeah, what's going on with this case. So I think it was back in September, October last year that it happened, but I became aware of it a few months later, where two young people, one was actually over the age of 16 and his sibling, his younger sibling is under the age of 16, had been removed from a very loving home, for all intents and purposes, a very loving, happy home and placed into foster care by a judge simply because they were fat, and there is really no other reason at all. There was no other signs of child abuse, neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, nothing. It's just because they were fat and they failed to lose weight, a judge removed them from a loving home and placed them in foster care, and the older sibling, I think he's 16, 17, didn't actually have to go in because he was too old and the younger girl, she's 13, and she was removed from her home. 0:09:11.5 NL: And when I read about it I think I was so disgusted, it sort of broke... One newspaper reports on it in the UK, and it was several weeks later I guess, because the court transcript had come out, and I read it, I read the article, and I just thought, "Well, this is just the press over-exaggerating." And then someone said... One friend of mine sent me a text message saying, "No, no, no, just read the court's transcript. Transcript, read it," and sent me a link to the court transcript. I read the whole thing and within an hour I think I read the whole thing, and I was in tears. I was so full of rage that I just felt like something had to be done and started a petition. Have tried really hard to get answers, to push people to look into this case but unfortunately, haven't got very far because we're dealing with people who have very much kind of shut us down and have said, "It's not your concern. This is a judge who made this decision and there's nothing you can do about it." 0:10:05.4 Louise: Really? 0:10:05.7 NL: So I'm pretty fired up. Yeah. 0:10:07.2 Louise: Oh, god. Oh, I mean, when you say it out loud, like my whole body is responding. When I read the court transcripts last night, I put it off because I knew that I just probably would have a massive reaction and I was crying too, because this transcript is literally fucking heartbreaking. 0:10:26.5 NL: Tears. 0:10:27.2 Louise: That they're all admitting that this is... No one wants to be split up, they love each other but there's this stupid idea, as if everybody is completely unaware of science and weight science and how fucked dieting is. 0:10:41.5 NL: Yeah. 0:10:42.2 Louise: And how it doesn't fucking work. 0:10:44.4 NL: No. 0:10:44.7 Louise: And it's in a pandemic. 0:10:46.0 NL: Yeah, yeah. 0:10:46.7 Louise: If I fail to lose weight in a lockdown, when the world was going mad... 0:10:51.6 NL: And I mean, actually, the story begins I think 10 years previously, the story begins when they were three and six. These were two children, a three-year-old and a six-year-old who were picked up most likely because... I don't know if it's the same in Australia, but in the UK we have a screening program, so in year one, which is between the age of five and six, you are weighed and measured by a school nurse, and they... 0:11:13.4 Louise: Really? 0:11:13.9 NL: Yeah. And do you not have that? No. 0:11:15.6 Louise: No. 0:11:15.7 NL: We have. This is the National Child Measurement Programme, there's a acronym, but I didn't bother to learn. 0:11:21.2 Louise: Oh my god. 0:11:21.6 NL: But it happens in year one, which is when you're between five and six, and again in year six, which is when you're between 10 and 11. 0:11:29.0 Louise: Oh Christ. 0:11:29.2 NL: Two of the worst times to weigh people... 0:11:30.0 Louise: Correct, yeah. 0:11:32.0 NL: If you're think about it, because of course, especially around the 10, 11 stage some people are heading towards puberty, pre-puberty, some people are not, and so those that are heading towards pre-puberty will often have gained quite a bit of weight because you know that always happens before you go through puberty, you kind of go out before you go up, and that's completely normal, but they get penalised. But anyway, so I imagine... I don't know, because that's not actually in the transcripts but I'm guessing that at six, the older sibling, the boy was shown to be grossly overweight or whatever they call it, morbidly obese. They probably just measured his BMI, even though he was six, they probably measured it, which is just ridiculous 'cause that's not what BMI is for, and rather than looking at growth charts, which is what we should be doing at that age, they will have just sent a letter home and the teachers would have got involved and somewhere along the line, social services would have been called just because of the weight, nothing else, just because of the weight, and social services... 0:12:25.8 Louise: Just because of the percentile of a BMI. 0:12:28.5 NL: That was all it was. It was just weight. There was literally no concerns of ever been raised about these kids apart from their weight. And at the age of three and six, social services got involved and started forcing these children to diet, and they will say that's not what they did, they tried to promote healthy eating, but when you take a three-year-old and a six-year-old and you tell them... You restrict what they eat, you force them to exercise, and you tell them there's something wrong with them, you are putting them on a diet at the age of three to six, and we know, for sure, with evidence, you know, I know, and everyone listening should know by now that when you put young children on a diet like that at such a young age and you make such a big deal out of their weight, they are going to develop disordered eating patterns, and they are going to... 0:13:06.8 Louise: Of course. 0:13:07.8 NL: Gain weight, so... 0:13:09.3 Louise: They're going to instead, that's a trauma process happening. 0:13:12.2 NL: That's true. Yeah, it's... 0:13:13.8 Louise: A trauma to get child protective services involved. 0:13:17.8 NL: Yeah, and live there for 10 years, and then... 0:13:21.4 Louise: Ten years? 0:13:22.5 NL: Got to the stage where they took the proceedings further and further, so that they kept getting more and more involved. And eventually, they decided to make this a child protection issue. Up until that point, child social services were involved, but then, about a year before the court proceedings, something like that, before the pandemic. What happened then was that they gave these children a set amount of time to lose weight, and they enforced it. They bought them Fitbits so that they could monitor how much exercise they were doing, they bought them gym subscriptions, they sent them to Weight Watchers. [chuckle] 0:13:55.9 Louise: Fantastic, 'cause we know that works. 0:13:58.4 NL: We know that works. And of course, as you said, it was during a lockdown. So, Corona hits and there was lockdown, there was schools were closed, and for us, it was really quite a difficult time. And in spite of all of that... 0:14:13.0 Louise: I can't believe it. 0:14:14.9 NL: When the children failed to lose weight, the judge decided that it was in their best interest to remove them from their loving parents. And dad, from what I can tell from the court transcripts. I don't know if you noticed this as well. I think mom was trying very hard to be as compliant as possible. 0:14:26.9 Louise: She was, and even she lost weight, the poor thing. 0:14:30.0 NL: Yes, but I think dad almost seems to be trying to protect them, saying, "This is ridiculous. You can't take my kids away just because of their weight," and I... 0:14:38.1 Louise: Seems like he was in denial, which I fully understand. 0:14:41.1 NL: I would be too, I would be outraged. And it sounds like this young girl... I don't know much about the boy, but from what I can see from the transcripts, this young girl really became quite sad and low and depressed, and obviously, shockingly enough, her self esteem has been completely ruined by this process. 0:14:58.7 Louise: I know, I know. I really saw that in the transcript. This poor little girl was so depressed and getting bullied. And in the transcript, the way that that is attributed to her size and not what abuse they're inflicting on this family. 0:15:13.3 NL: Right. Yeah, really quite shocking. And then of course, the other thing you probably noticed from the transcript is there is no expert testimony at this court proceeding. None whatsoever. There is no psychologist. 0:15:24.0 Louise: Actually, there was. 0:15:25.8 NL: There was... 0:15:26.6 Louise: Dr... What's her name? 0:15:29.4 NL: Yes. You're right, there was a psychologist, and you're absolutely right. She was not an eating disorder specialist or a... She was just a psychologist. 0:15:37.3 Louise: She's a clinical psychologist. Dr. Van Rooyen, and she's based in Kent, and she does court reports for child abuse. Yes, and I can see her weight stigma in there. She's on the one hand acknowledging that the kids don't wanna go, that the kids will suffer mentally from being removed, but you can also see her unexamined weight stigma. And that you're right, where the hell are the weight scientists saying, "Actually, it's biologically impossible to lose weight and maintain it"? Because in the transcripts, they do mention that the kids have lost weight, failed to keep it off. 0:16:16.5 NL: Exactly, exactly. And it's just shocking to me that there would be such a lack of understanding and no desire to actually establish the science or the facts behind this. If I was a judge... I'm not a judge, I'm not an expert, but if I was a judge and I was making a decision to remove a child from a home based purely on the child's inability to lose weight, I would want to find out if it was possible that this child simply couldn't lose weight on their own. I would want to consult experts. I would want to find out if there was a genetic condition. I'm not saying she has a genetic condition. You and I know that she doesn't need to have a genetic condition in order to struggle to lose weight, that actually, the psychology behind this explains it. But even if you've not got to that stage yet, there was no doctors, there was no dietitians, there was no... No one was consulted. It was a psychologist who had no understanding of these specific issues, who, as you said, was clearly biased. There was social workers who said, "We've done everything we can because we've given them a Fitbit and we've sent them to Weight Watchers and sent them to the gym, but they refuse to comply." 0:17:24.9 Louise: I know. It's shocking. 0:17:28.4 NL: Yeah, it strikes me that we live in a world where you just can get away with this. It's just universally accepted that being fat is bad, and it's also your fault, your responsibility. The blame lies solely on the individual, even if that individual is a three-year-old child, it is. And if it's not the child, then of course, it's the parent. The parent has done something wrong. 0:17:52.1 Louise: Specifically the mother, okay. 0:17:53.5 NL: The mother, yeah. 0:17:54.4 Louise: The one with the penis, okay, let's not talk about him, 'cause that was absent. It was the mom. And the only possibility that was examined in this is that it's mom's fault for not being compliant, like you said. That's the only thing. Nothing else like the whole method is a stink-fest of ineffective bullshit. 0:18:13.5 NL: And there's the one point in the transcript when they talk about the fact that she had ice cream or chips or something in the house. 0:18:19.7 Louise: That's Ms. Keeley, their social worker, who went in and judged them. And did you notice that she took different scales in during that last visit? That last visit that was gonna determine whether or not they'd be removed, she took different scales in and weighed them. And they say, "Look, we acknowledge that that could've screwed up the results, but we're just gonna push on with removal." 0:18:43.0 NL: It was their agenda. 0:18:45.0 Louise: It was. It's terrifying, and it's long-term foster care for this poor little girl who doesn't wanna leave her mom. I'm so fired up about this, because the impact of removing yourself from your home because of your body, how on earth is this poor kid gonna be okay? 0:19:05.7 NL: This is my worry. How is mom going to be okay? How is that boy going to be okay? And how is that young, impressionable girl... My oldest son is a little bit older, and my younger son is a little bit younger, she's literally in between the two, and I'm watching what the last two years or last year and a half has done to them in terms of their mental and emotional well-being. And to me, even without social services' involvement, my children's mental health has deteriorated massively. And I cannot even begin to comprehend what this poor girl is going through. I cannot imagine how traumatized she is, and I cannot see how is she ever going to get over this, because she's been going through it since she was three, and it's not at the hand of a parent, it's at the hand of a social worker, it is the social worker's negligence. And what's interesting is a lot of social workers and people who work in social services have reached out to me since I first talked about this case, and they have all said the same thing, the amount of weight stigma in social services in the UK is shocking. It is shocking. It is perfectly acceptable to call parents abusers just because their children are overweight. 0:20:21.8 Louise: Jesus. 0:20:22.2 NL: No other reason, just your child is over the limit, is on the 90th percentile or whatever it is, your child is overweight and therefore you as a mother, usually as you said, it's a mother, are an abusive mother, because you've brought your child up in a loving environment but they failed to look the way that you want them to look, that's it. 0:20:41.0 Louise: Okay. So, that's me, right. My eldest is in the 99th percentile, so I am an abuser, I'm a child abuser. 0:20:47.3 NL: Child abuser, I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. 0:20:49.3 Louise: I know. [laughter] 0:20:49.9 NL: I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. And you know, the irony, my son's been really poorly recently and he's been up in... I mean we've spent most of our life in the hospital the last few weeks, and... 0:20:58.1 Louise: Oh dear. 0:20:58.3 NL: Went to see a paediatrician and they did the height and weight, and he is on the 98th percentile, my son has a 28-inch waist. He is a skeleton at the moment because he's been really ill, but he is mixed race, and we all know that the BMI is not particularly... 0:21:12.9 Louise: It's racist. 0:21:13.2 NL: Useful anyway, but it's massively racist, so my children have always been, if you weigh them, a lot heavier than they look, because I mean he's... There isn't an ounce of fat on him. My point is that BMI is complete utter bullshit and it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact that we've been using up until now is shameful and as a doctor, I cannot accept that we use this as a measure of whether a person is healthy and certainly as a measure of whether a child is healthy, because until recently, we were told you don't do BMIs on anyone under the age of 16 but that's just gone out the window now, everyone... 0:21:48.5 Louise: I know. 0:21:48.6 NL: Gets a BMI, even a six-year-old. 0:21:50.1 Louise: You get a BMI, you get a BMI. [laughter] I think it's not supposed to be used for an individual anything, it's a population level statistic. 0:22:01.1 NL: And a pretty crappy one at that. 0:22:02.3 Louise: It's a shitty one. 0:22:02.6 NL: It is like you said. 0:22:04.2 Louise: Yes. 0:22:04.6 NL: It's based on what European men, it's not particularly useful for men, it's not particularly useful for any other race, it's just useful perhaps. Even when it came out, like even when... What's his face? I forget his name right now, Ancel Keys. When he did that study that first look, brought in the BMI into our medical world as it were, yeah, even he said at the time it was alright. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it will do. It's the best out of the bunch. I mean he didn't even have much enthusiasm at the time. He said specifically it's not meant to be used as an individual assessment. And even the guy who kind of didn't invent it, but he sort of invented it as a measure of "obesity" and yet... And even he didn't have much good stuff to say about it. If he was selling the latest iPhone, Apple would have a lot to say about that. [laughter] I just... This fact that we've become obsessed and we know why this is. We know this is because of the diet industry, we know this is because of people trying to make money out of us and succeeding, very successful at making money out of us. 0:23:02.9 Louise: It's actually terrifying how successful this is because when I read this transcript, I've been doing a lot of work against the Novo Nordisk impact and how our modern oh, narrative has been essentially created by the pharmaceutical company that's producing all of the weight loss drugs, they have 80% of the weight loss drugs market and they've shamelessly said in their marketing that this is their drive to increase... That it's to create a sense of urgency for the medical management of obesity. And here it is, this is where it bleeds, because they're telling us this bullshit that it's going to reduce stigma. No, it's going to create eugenics. This is hideous what's happening here and I can't believe that the world didn't stop and that the front page of newspapers aren't saying like get fucked, like get these kids back. There's no outrage. 0:24:04.2 NL: No, there is none whatsoever. We got just over 2,000 people supporting the petition and as grateful as I am for that, that's just what the fuck, that's 2,000 people who live in a country of 68 million and only 2,000 people had something to say about this and, we... That's how much we hate fat kids and how much we hate fat people. We just don't see them as worthy and nobody wants to defend this young girl, nobody sort of feels sorry for her and I just... I can't get my head around this whole thing. It's funny because I didn't really know about it, a year ago I was completely clueless. It's all happened rather quickly for me that I've begun to understand Haze and begun to understand who Novo Nordisk was and what they are doing and what Semaglutide actually is and how it's going to completely change the world as we know it. 0:24:56.5 NL: I think this particular drug is going to become part of popular culture in the same way that Viagra is, we use that word now in novels and in movies. It's so popular and so understood, nobody talks about... I don't know, give me a name of any drug, like some blood pressure medication, they don't talk about it in the same way they talk about Viagra. But Semaglutide is going to be that next drug because they have tapped into this incredibly large population of people who are desperate to lose weight and they've got this medication that was originally used to treat diabetes, just like Viagra was originally used to treat blood pressure and have said, "Wow, look at this amazing side effect. It makes people lose weight as long as you run it. Let's market this." And the FDA approved it. I mean, no... 0:25:45.1 Louise: I know. 0:25:45.8 NL: No thought as to whether or not this drug is gonna have a massive impact on people in their insulin resistance and whether they're gonna develop diabetes down the line. I don't think they care. I don't think anybody actually cares. I think it's just that everybody is happy, woo-hoo, another way to treat fat people and make a good deal of money out of it. 0:26:03.9 Louise: Right? So, Semaglutide is... It's the latest weight loss drug to be approved by the FDA from Novo Nordisk and it is like the Mark II. So, they were selling Saxenda, Saxenda's here in Australia, they're pushing it out and this Semaglutide is like the Mark II, like I think of Saxenda as like Jan Brady, and Semaglutide is like Marcia. [laughter] 0:26:29.3 Louise: 'Cause it's like, "Oh my God, look at Semaglutide. Look at this amazing one year trial." [laughter] Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, like oh my God, we can make so much weight loss happen from this intervention. Why? Why do we need all of this weight loss, all these percentages? And, "Oh, we can lose 15% and 20%," and we don't need to for health, but okay. 0:26:53.3 NL: Yeah. The other thing that we have to remember about it, I don't think it's actually that much better. I've used all of these drugs in treating diabetes. So many years, I used these drugs. The beauty of it, of course, is that it's a tablet, and Saxenda is an injection. I'm assuming you have the injectable form, yeah? 0:27:09.9 Louise: That's right. You have to inject, and it's very expensive. 0:27:14.0 NL: It's extremely expensive, as will... Marcia Brady will be more expensive, I'm sure. 0:27:18.6 Louise: So high maintenance. [chuckle] 0:27:20.2 NL: Absolutely, but she is easier to administer. A lot of people don't like the idea of injecting themselves, but taking a tablet is dead easy. So, that's what makes this special, as it were, because it's the only one of that whole family that is oral, as opposed to injectable. 0:27:37.6 Louise: Well, that's interesting, because the paper with all of the big, shiny weight loss was injectable, it wasn't tablet. 0:27:43.7 NL: Oh, really? Oh, but they're marketing it as the oral version, definitely. That's the one that's got approved. It's brand name is... 0:27:51.3 Louise: Wegovy. 0:27:52.2 NL: Oh no, well, I have a completely different brand name. Is it different, maybe, in Australia? 0:27:57.1 Louise: Well, this is in America. In Australia, they haven't cornered us yet. I'm sure that they're trying to do it, but it was the FDA approval for Wegovy, [0:28:05.4] ____. 0:28:05.9 NL: So, they obviously changed the name. That's not the same one we use in diabetes. Clearly, they've had to revamp it a bit. Irrespective of oral, injectable, whatever, I think that this is going to... Novo Nordisk is sitting on a gold mine, and they know it. And it's going to change our lives, I think, because bariatric surgery is quite a big thing, and it's something that often people will say, "I'm not keen on doing." And the uptake is quite low still, and so, in bariatric... 0:28:35.2 Louise: In the UK, not here. 0:28:36.2 NL: Yeah, [chuckle] yeah, but bariatric surgeons are probably very afraid right now, because there's drugs coming along and taking all of their business away from them. 0:28:43.5 Louise: Actually, you know what Novo were doing? They're partnering with the bariatric surgeons. 0:28:46.2 NL: Of course they are. 0:28:46.9 Louise: And they're saying to them, "Hey, let's use your power and kudos, and our drugs can help your patients when they start to regain." 0:28:56.4 NL: Oh my gosh. 0:28:58.0 Louise: It's literally gateway drug. Once you start using a drug to reduce your weight, you have medicalized your weight, and it's a small upsell from there. So, I think this is all part of a giant marketing genius that is Novo Nordisk. But I'm interested to hear your concerns, 'cause I'm concerned as well with the use of diabetes drugs as weight loss medications, and I read about it being that they're hoping that people will take this drug like we take statins. So, everyone will take it preventatively for the rest of their lives. What's the long-term impact, do you think, of taking a double dose of a diabetes drug when you don't have diabetes? 0:29:43.5 NL: Well, first of all, they don't know. Nobody knows, because they've only done a study for a year, and just how many diet drugs have we put out there into the universe since the 1970s, and then taken them back a few years later, 'cause we've gone, "Oh, this kills"? If you've got diabetes and you take this drug because you've got insulin resistance and this drug helps you to combat your insulin resistance in the way that it works, you've already got diabetes. And so, there is no risk of you developing diabetes, and this drug does work, and so, I have no issue with the GLP-1 analogs in their use in diabetes. I think all the diabetes drugs are important, and I'm not an expert. But you've really got to ask yourself, if you take a healthy body and you act on a system within the pancreas and within the body, in a healthy, essentially, healthy body, healthy pancreas, you've got to ask yourself if it's going to worsen insulin resistance over time. It's actually going to lead to increased cases of diabetes. Now, they say it won't, but... 0:30:47.4 Louise: How do they know that? 'Cause I've read a study by Novo, sponsored, in rats, that showed that it did lead to insulin resistance long-term. 0:30:57.6 NL: Right, I think common sense, because we understand that the way that the body works, just common sense. The way the body works suggests to me that over long periods of time, taking this medication in a healthy person is going to lead to increased insulin resistance, which in turn will lead to diabetes. That is what common sense dictates. But of course, as you said, we don't know. We don't have a study. Nobody has looked into this. And it makes me sad that we are using a drug to treat a condition that isn't a condition. 0:31:30.2 Louise: I know, yeah. [chuckle] 0:31:32.4 NL: And inadvertently, potentially giving people a whole... 0:31:36.0 Louise: Creating a condition. 0:31:36.6 NL: Creating an actual medical condition, which we all know to be life-threatening if untreated. And so, I cannot fathom why... Well, I can, I understand. It's for financial reasons only, but I can't understand why there are doctors out there that want to prescribe this. This is the issue that I have. I'm a doctor, and I can't speak on behalf of drug companies or politicians or anyone else, but I can speak to what doctors are supposed to be doing, and we have a very strong code of conduct that we have to abide by. We have ethical and moral principles and legal obligations to our patients. And so, doing no harm and doing what is in your patients' best interest, and practising fairly and without discrimination, and giving people... Allowing them to make an informed choice where they are aware of the risks and the side effects and all the different treatment options. 0:32:28.0 NL: When it comes to being fat, again, it seems to have gone out the window. None of these things are happening. We wouldn't dream of addressing other issues this way, it's just fatness, because it's just so commonly, widely accepted that fatness is bad and you've got to do whatever you can to get rid of it. I've had someone tell me today that they are pregnant with their first child and they had their first conversation with the anesthetist, who told them they had to do whatever they could to lose weight before they had their baby. This is a pregnant woman. 0:32:58.1 Louise: Whatever they had to do? 0:33:00.1 NL: Whatever they had to do, and she said, "What do you want me to do, buy drugs off the streets?" And the anesthetist said... Wait for it. The anesthetist said, "It would be safer for you to use a Class A drugs than it would for you to be fat in pregnancy". The anesthetist said that to this woman. She told me this and I just went "Please just... Can you just report him?" 0:33:21.7 Louise: Shut the front door, Jesus Christ! 0:33:24.6 NL: Can you imagine? First of all, that's not true. Second of all, he is saying that it is better to be a drug addict than to be a fat person. This is no judgment on drug addicts, but you do not encourage your patients to use Class A drugs to lose weight. That's stupid. Imagine if he'd said that about anything else, but in his... And it was a man, in his world, for whatever reason, his ethics just abandons them all in favor of fat shaming a woman. 0:33:52.4 Louise: This is where we're at with, it's self examined. It's like there's a massive black hole of stigma just operating unchallenged effortlessly and actually growing, thanks to this massive marketing department, Novo. It's terrify... That poor lady, I'm so glad she's found you and I hope she's not gonna go down the Class A drug route. [laughter] 0:34:19.3 NL: She's definitely not, but she was quite traumatized. She's on a Facebook group that I started and it's great because it's 500 people who are just so supportive of each other and it was within a few minutes 50 comments going "What a load of crap, I can't believe this," "You're great, this doctor is terrible". But it just stuck to me that one of my colleagues would dare, would have the audacity to do something as negligent as that. And I'm gonna call it what it is. That's negligence. But I'm seeing it all the time. I'm seeing it in healthcare, I'm seeing it in Social Services, I'm seeing it in schools, I'm seeing it in the workplace, I'm seeing it everywhere. You cannot escape it. And as a fat person, who was in the morbidly, super fat, super obese stage where she's just basically needs to just be put down like a... 0:35:16.3 Louise: Oh my gosh, it's awful. 0:35:18.5 NL: And as that person, I hear all of these things and I just think "I'm actually a fairly useful member of society, I've actually never been ill, never required any medication, managed to give birth to my children, actually to be fair, they had to come out my zip as opposed to through the tunnel." But that wasn't because I was fat, that was because they were awkward. But this anesthetist telling this woman that she's too fat to have a baby. I was just like "But I am the same weight. I am the same BMI as you". And I had three and I had no problems with my anesthetics. In fact after my third cesarean section, I walked out the hospital 24 hours later, happy as Larry, didn't have any problems. And I know people who were very, very thin that had a massive problems after their cesarean. So there's not even evidence to show how dangerous it is to have a BMI over 35 and still... And then caught when it comes to an anesthetic. This isn't even evidence-based, it's just superstition at this point. 0:36:12.8 Louise: It's a biased based and the guidelines here in Australia, so I think above 35 women are advised to have a cesarean because it's too dangerous. And women are not allowed to give birth in rural hospitals, they have to fly to major cities. So imagine all of... And don't even get me started on bias in medical care for women. It's everywhere, like you said, and it's unexamined and all of this discrimination in the name of, apparently, healthcare. It's scary. 0:36:43.9 NL: It really is. Gosh, you've got me fired up, it's almost 1:00 in the morning and I'm fired up. I'm never gonna get to sleep now. [laughter] 0:36:51.7 Louise: Okay, I don't wanna tell you this, but I will. 'Cause we're talking about how on earth is this possible, like why aren't there any medical experts involved to talk about this from a scientific basis, and I'm worried that even if they did have medical people in the court, they wouldn't have actually stuck up for the kid. I found this JAMA article from 2011. It's a commentary on whether or not large kids should be removed from their families, and it was supportive of that. 0:37:18.0 NL: Oh gosh. Of course it was. 0:37:22.0 Louise: And in response to that commentary, the medpage, which is a medical website, a newsletter kind of thing. They did a poll of health professionals asking should larger kids removed from their families, and 54% said yes. 0:37:40.7 NL: Of course. 0:37:41.3 Louise: I know. Isn't that dreadful? One comment on that said "It seems to me the children in a home where they have become morbidly obese might be suffering many other kinds of abuse as well, viewing in the size of a child. 'Cause we've all gotten bigger since the '80s. We're a larger population and viewing that as abuse and as a fault of parenting. Unbelievable. I also had a little dig around Australia, 'cause it's not isolated in the UK, there's so many more cases. 0:38:16.9 NL: They have. Yeah. 0:38:17.8 Louise: And I think actually in the UK, it might be a lot more common than in Australia. 0:38:22.1 NL: Yeah, I can believe that. 0:38:23.5 Louise: But it did happen here in 2012, there was some report of two children being removed from their families because of the size of the kids. And the media coverage was actually quite dreadful. I'll put in the show notes, this article, and the title is "Victorian authorities remove obese children, removed from their parents". So even the title is wrong, couldn't even get their semantics right. There's a picture, you can imagine what picture would accompany... 0:38:55.2 NL: Well of course it can't be of the actual children, because I think it leads to lawsuit. I'm assuming it's a belly. Is there a belly? Is there a fat person in it or a fat child eating a burger? 0:39:06.2 Louise: Yes. [laughter] 0:39:07.1 NL: Sorry, it's either the belly or the fat person eating the burger. So, a fat child eating the burger, sorry. 0:39:11.9 Louise: Helpfully, to help the visually impaired, the picture had caption and the caption reads "Overweight brother and sister sitting side by side on a sofa eating takeaway food and watching the TV." So not at all stereotyped, very sensitive, nuanced article this one. And then we hear from Professor John Dixon, who is a big part of obesity Inc here in Australia. He told the ABC that "Sometimes taking children away from their parents is the best option." In the same article, he also admits "There's no services available that can actually help kids lose weight", and he says that it's not the parents fault. Helpfully, this article also states that "Obesity is the leading cause of illness and death in Australia." [laughter] 0:39:58.7 NL: I love it when I hear that. How have they figured that out? What do they do to decide that? Where does this... 0:40:08.4 Louise: They don't have to provide any actual evidence. 0:40:10.5 NL: Right. They just say it. 0:40:12.1 Louise: Got it. 0:40:13.0 NL: Just say it. 0:40:14.4 Louise: Diet. And I checked just to make sure, 'cause in case I've missed anything. 0:40:18.4 NL: Yeah. 0:40:19.6 Louise: The top five causes of death in Australia in 2019; heart disease, number two dementia, number three stroke, number four malignant neoplasm of trachea bronchus and lung. 0:40:30.4 NL: Lung cancer. 0:40:30.9 Louise: Lung cancer. 0:40:31.5 NL: That's lung cancer. 0:40:32.3 Louise: And number five chronic lower respiratory disease. 0:40:38.4 NL: So translation. Heart attacks, dementia... In the UK it's actually dementia first, then heart attacks. So dementia, heart attacks, stroke, same thing in the UK, and then lung cancer and COPD. Both of those are smoking-related illnesses. And I can say quite safely that they are smoking-related illness because the chance of developing lung cancer or COPD if you haven't smoked is minuscule. So what the people are doing is they're saying, "Well, we can attribute all of these heart attacks and strokes and dementia to "obesity". And the way we can do that is we just look at all these people that have died, and if they are fat we'll just assume it's their fat that caused their heart disease. 0:41:20.0 NL: To make it very clear to everybody that is listening, if you have a BMI of 40, we can calculate your risk of developing a heart attack or a stroke over the next 10 years using a very sophisticated calculator actually, it's been around for some time. It's what we use in the UK. I'm assuming Australia has a similar one, don't know what it's called there. In the UK it's called a QRISK. So I've done this. I have calculated. I have found a woman, I called her Jane. I gave her a set of blood pressure and cholesterol, and I filled in a template. And then I gave her a BMI of 20. And then I gave her a BMI of 40. And I calculated the difference in her risk. I calculated the difference in her risk, and the difference in her risk was exactly 3%. The difference in her risk if she was a smoker was 50%. She was 50% more likely to have a heart attack if she was a smoker, but only 3% more likely to have a heart attack if she had a BMI of 40 instead of a BMI of 25. 0:42:15.0 NL: To put it into perspective, she was significantly more likely to have a heart attack if she was a migraine sufferer, if she had a mental health condition, if she had lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, if she was Asian, if she was a man, and all of those things dramatically increased her risk more than having a BMI of 40. So it's just very important that doctors will admit, 'cause it's about admitting to a simple fact, this calculator we use to predict people's risks. So if we know that weight only has a 3-4% impact on our cardiovascular risk as opposed to smoking which has a 50% impact, as opposed to aging which is why most people die because they get old and let's face it everybody dies some time. 0:43:04.0 NL: So what's happening is the... Whoever they are, are taking all these deaths from heart disease which was likely caused by the person aging, by the person being male or just being old and being over the age of 75, your risk of heart disease goes up massively irrespective of your weight. So instead of saying, "Well, it's just heart disease", they've gone, "Well, it's heart disease in a fat person and therefore it was the fatness that caused the heart disease." And that is offensive to me to the point that now, I have heard... And this is awful in this year, our patients that are dying of COVID, if they die of COVID in the UK, it's actually quite heart breaking, it's happened to someone that I was close to. If they die of COVID in the UK, and they happen to be fat, the doctor writes "obesity" on their death certificate... 0:43:51.8 Louise: No way. 0:43:52.4 NL: As a cause of death. They died of COVID. 0:43:55.2 Louise: What? 0:43:55.5 NL: They died of COVID. That's what they died of. They died of this terrible virus that is killing people in their droves but people are under the misguided impression that being fat predisposes you to death from COVID, which is not true. It's not true. That is a complete gross misrepresentation of the facts. But we've now got doctors placing that on a person's death certificate. Can you imagine how that family feels? Can you imagine what it feels like to get this death certificate saying, "Your family member is dead from COVID but it's their fault 'cause they were obese." And how can the doctor know? How could the doctor know that? 0:44:34.2 Louise: How can they do that? 0:44:35.6 NL: How can they do that? And this is my point, this doctor that's turning around and saying it's safer for children to be removed from their loving home. Obviously, this person has no idea of the psychological consequences of being removed from your family. But it's safer for that person to be removed from their home than to remain in their home and remain fat. What will you achieve? Is this person going to lose weight? No. I can tell you what this person is going to do. This person is going to develop... 0:44:58.9 Louise: They even say that. They even say that in the transcripts. We don't think that they'll get any more supervision. 0:45:03.1 NL: Yeah. In fact, we're gonna get less supervision because it's not a loving parent. You're going to develop, most likely an eating disorder. You're going to develop serious psychological scars. That trauma is going to lead to mental health problems down the line. And chances are you're just gonna get bigger. You're not gonna get smaller because we know that 95% of people who lose weight gain it all back again. We know that two-thirds of them end up heavier. We know that the more you diet, the heavier you're gonna get. And that actually, this has been shown to be like a dose-response thing in some studies. So the more diets you go on, the higher your weight is going to get. If you don't diet ever in your life, chances are you're not gonna have as many weight problems later on down the line. So, as you're saying, we are living in a society that's got fatter. And there's lots of reasons for that. It's got to do with the food that we're eating now. That we're all eating. That we're all consuming. 0:45:55.1 Louise: Food supply. Only some of us will express from there the epigenetic glory of becoming higher weight. 0:46:02.0 NL: Right. And that's the thing, isn't it? Genetics, hormones, trauma, medications. How many people do I know that are on psychiatric medications and have gained weight as a result, Clozapine or... It's just what's gonna happen. You name it. Being female, having babies, so many things will determine your weight. 0:46:21.0 Louise: Getting older. We're allowed to get... We're supposed to get bigger as we get older. 0:46:25.1 NL: And then you know that actually, there are so many studies nowadays, so many studies that we've labeled it now that show that actually being fat can be beneficial to you. There's studies that show that if you end up in ICU with sepsis, you're far more likely to survive if you're fat. If you've got a BMI over 30, you're more likely to survive. There's studies that show that if you have chronic kidney disease and you're on dialysis, the chances of you surviving more long-term are significantly higher if you're fat. Heart failure, kidney disease, ICU admissions, in fact, even after a heart attack, there's evidence to show that you're more likely to survive if you're fat. And they call this the obesity paradox. We have to call it a paradox because we cannot, for one moment, admit that actually there's a possibility that being fat isn't all that bad for you in the first place and we got it wrong. Rather than admit that we got it wrong, we've labeled a paradox because we have to be right here, we have to... 0:47:18.0 Louise: Yeah, it's like how totally bad and wrong, except in certain rare, weird conditions, as opposed to, "Let's just drop the judgment and look at all of this much less hysterically." 0:47:29.5 NL: Yeah. And studies have shown that putting children on a diet, talking about weight, weight-shaming them, weighing them, any of these things, have been linked to and have been demonstrated to cause disordered eating and be a serious risk for direct factor for weight gain. And that, in my opinion, is the important thing to remember in this particular case, because as I said, social services start in weight-shaming, judging, and talking about weight when these children were three and six, and they did that for 10 years. And in doing so, they are responsible for the fact that these children went on to gain weight, because that's what the evidence shows. And there's no question about this evidence, there's multiple papers to back it up. 0:48:14.1 NL: There's an article published in Germany in 2016, there was an article published last year by the University of Cambridge, and even the American Academy of Pediatrics agrees that talking about weight, putting children on a diet, in fact, even a parent going on a diet is enough to damage that child and increase their risk of developing disordered eating patterns and weight gain. 0:48:37.9 NL: And so, as far as I'm concerned, that to me, is evidence enough to say that it's actually social services that should be in front of a judge, not these children, but it's the social workers that should be held to account. And I have written... And this is something that is very important to say. I wrote to the council, the local authority, and I've written a very long letter, I've published it on my website. You can read it anytime, anyone can read it. And I wrote to them and I said, "This is the evidence. Here are all the links. As far as I'm concerned, you guys got it terribly wrong and you have demonstrated that there is a high degree of weight bias that is actually causing damage to children. I am prepared to come and train you for free and teach all of your social workers all about weight bias, weight stigma, and to basically dispel the myths that obviously are pervading your social work department." And they ignored me. I wrote to politicians in the area. They ignored me. I wrote to a counselor who's a member of my political party, who just claimed, "Yeah, I'll look into it for you." Never heard from her again. Yeah, nobody cares. 0:49:44.0 Louise: It's just such a lack of concern. 0:49:45.7 NL: I didn't even do it in a critical way. I had to do it in a kind of, "I will help you. Let me help you. I'm offering my services for free. I do charge, normally, but I'll do it for free for you guys." No one is interested. Nobody wants to know. And that makes me really sad, that they weren't even willing to hear me out. 0:50:03.0 Louise: I can't believe they didn't actually even answer you. 0:50:06.5 NL: Didn't answer me, didn't respond to any of my messages, none of the counselors, none of the... Nobody has responded, and I've tried repeatedly. 0:50:14.4 Louise: So, this is in West Sussex, yeah? 0:50:16.7 NL: That's right, West Sussex, that's right. 0:50:18.0 Louise: You know what's weird about that? I've actually attended a wedding at that council, that my ex-father-in-law got married there. And when I saw the picture there, I'm like, "Oh my God, I've actually been there." So, I had a poke, and I don't know if you know this, but hopefully, in the future, when those children, C and D, finally decide to sue the council, that they can use this as evidence. There is a report from a... It's called a commissioner's progress report on children services in West Sussex from October 2020, which details how awful the service has been for the past few years, and huge issues with how they're running things. And it says, "Quite fragile and unstable services in West Sussex." So, this family who've had their kids removed were being cared for by a service with massive problems, are being referred to programs that don't work, and that there's a massive miscarriage of justice. 0:51:17.3 NL: And I'm glad you're talking about it, and I'm glad we're talking about it. And I wish that we had the platform to talk about it more vocally. I'd want to be able to reach out to these... To see patients... They're not patients, child C and D. I want to be able to reach out to mum as well, and say... 0:51:36.3 Louise: I just wanna land in Sussex and just walk around the street saying, "Where are you? I wanna help." 0:51:40.2 NL: "Where are you? And let me hug you." And I'm very interest to know, I'd be very interested to know the ethnic origin of these young people. 0:51:48.9 Louise: And the socio-economic status of these people. 0:51:50.2 NL: Socio-economic status, 100%. I would very much like to know that. That would make a huge... I think that I can guess, I'm not going to speculate, but I had a very lovely young woman contact me from a... She was now an adult, but she had experienced this as a child. She had been removed from her home and was now an adult, and she had been in foster care, in social services, for a few years, and had obviously contact with her mum but hadn't been reunited with her mum ever. So it wasn't like it was for a time and then she went back. And we talked about this. She was in a London borough, I shall not name the borough, but I know for a fact that her race would've played a role in this, because she was half-Black, half-Turkish. 0:52:39.2 NL: And there're a few things in that court transcript that caught my attention. I don't know if you noticed there was a mention of the smell from the kitchen, and they didn't specifically said, you know, mould, or you know that there was mould in the kitchen, or there was something in the kitchen that was rotting, something like that, 'cause I think they would have specified. It was just a smell. And that made me wonder, is this to do with just the fact that maybe this family lived in poor housing or was it the type of food that they were cooking for their children? Is there a language issue, is there a cultural issue. What exactly is going on? 'cause we don't know that from the court transcript, so that's another thing that... Another piece of the puzzle that I would really be interested in. Is this a white wealthy family? Probably not. I don't think they are. 0:53:27.2 Louise: Yeah it didn't struck me that way either. Yeah, yeah this is potentially marginalization and racism happening that... 0:53:35.1 NL: Yeah. 0:53:35.9 Louise: And here in Australia, we've got an awful history of how we treated First Nations people and we removed indigenous kids from their families, on the basis of like we know better, and I just... Yeah honestly, elements of that here, like we know better. 0:53:51.5 NL: Yes. Right, this is it. We know better than you have to parent your child. I am have always been a big believer of not restricting my children's feed in any way. I was restricted, and I made the decision when we had the kids that there would just be no restriction at all. I have like been one of those parents that had just been like, that's the draw with all the sweet treats in it. They're not called treats, they're just sweets and chocolate and candy, there it is. It's within reachable distance. Help yourself whenever you want, ice pops in the freezer, there's no like you have to eat that to get your pudding. None of that. 0:54:27.6 NL: My kids have just been able to eat whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, I never restricted anything, I wanted them to be intuitive eaters. And of course they are, and what amazes me is now my teenage son, when we were on lockdown, and he was like homeschooled, he would come downstairs, make himself a breakfast, and there was like three portions of fruit and veg on his plate, and not because someone told him that he had to, but just because he knew it was good for him and he knew it was healthy, there was like a selection, his plate was always multi-colored, he was drinking plenty of water. He would go and cook it, he cooked himself lunch, he knew that he can eat sweets and crisps and chocolate whenever he wanted to, and he didn't, he just didn't. Like it was there, that drawn, it gets emptied out because it's become a bit... But no, they don't take it, and sometimes they do, 'cause they fancy it, but most of the times they don't. And that is my decision as a parent, I believe that I have done what is in their best interest, I believe that I will prove over time that this has had a much better impact on their health, not restricting them. 0:55:26.4 Louise: Absolutely, Yeah. 0:55:27.6 NL: But the point is they're my children, and it was my damn choice, and even if my child is on the 98th percentile, it's still my damn choice, nobody gets to tell me how to parent my child. That is my child, I know what's best for them. And I believe that my children are going to prove the fact that this is a great way of parenting, and I know that actually most of their friends who had, were not allowed to eat the food that they wanted to eat used to come over to our house and just kind of like wide eyed. And they binge, they binge, you know, to the point that I have to restrict them and say I actually I don't think mom would like that if I gave that to you. 0:56:00.0 Louise: We know that that's what we do when we put kids in food deserts, we breed binge eating and food insecurity, and trying to teach our kids to have a relaxed and enjoyable relationship with food is what intuitive eating is all about. And without a side salad of fat phobia, we're not doing this relationship with food stuff in order to make sure you're thin, we're doing this to make sure that you feel really safe and secure in the world, and you know health is sometimes controllable and sometimes not, and this kind of mad obsession we have with controlling our food and the ability it will give us like everlasting life is weird. 0:56:39.0 NL: Yeah. 0:56:39.7 Louise: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad you're parenting those kids in that way and I've noticed the same thing with my kids. Like my kids, we are a family of intuitive eaters and it's just really relaxed, and there's variety, and they go through these little love affairs with foods, and it's really cute. [chuckle] And they're developing their palettes, and their size is not up to me. 0:57:05.8 NL: Yeah. 0:57:06.4 Louise: Yeah. 0:57:07.4 NL: Right. 0:57:08.1 Louise: It's up to me to help them thrive. 0:57:10.7 NL: That's right. And when people talk about health, I often hear people talking about health, and whenever they ask me that question, you know, surely you can agree that being fat is not good for your health, well, I'll always kinda go, "Oh Really? Could you just do me a favor here and define health?" Because I spend my whole life trying to define health, and I'm not sure that I've got there yet, but I can tell you without a doubt that this for me, in my personal experience as a doctor... And I've been a doctor for a long time now, and I see patients all the time, and I'm telling you that in my experience, the most important thing for your health is your mental and emotional well-being, that if you are not mentally and emotionally well, it doesn't matter how good your cholesterol is, it doesn't matter whether or not you've got diabetes, that is irrelevant, because if you're not mental and emotional... I'm not saying that 'cause you won't enjoy life, I mean, it has an impact on your physical health. And I spend most of my day dealing with either people who are depressed or anxious, and that's what they've presented with, or they've presented with symptoms that are being made worse or exacerbated by their mental and emotional pull, mental and emotional well-being. 0:58:19.1 NL: So giving my children the best start in life has always been about giving them a good mental and emotional well, start. It's about giving... It's not just teaching them resilience, but teaching them to love themselves, to be happy with who they are, to not feel judged or to not feel that they are anything other than the brilliant human beings that they are. And I believe that that is what's going to stand them in the greatest... In the greatest... I've lost my words now, but that's what's gonna get them through life, and that's why they're going to be healthy. And how much sugar they eat actually is quite irrelevant compared to the fact that they love themselves and their bodies, and they are great self-esteem, we all know that happiness is... Happiness is the most important thing when it comes to quality of life and happiness is the most important thing when it comes to length of life and illness, all of it. Happiness trumps everything else. 0:59:07.0 Louise: And to you know what that comes from. Happiness comes from a sense of belonging, belonging in our bodies, belonging in ourselves, belonging in the community, and all of this othering that's happening with the message that everyone belongs unless they're fat. That sucks ass and that needs to stop. This poor little kid when, in the transcript it mentioned that they found a suicide note... 0:59:29.9 NL: Yes. 0:59:30.1 Louise: And some pills. And she's fucking like 13. 0:59:34.8 NL: Yeah, and they called it a cry for help. 0:59:36.0 Louise: They called it cry for help 'cause of her body. 0:59:38.1 NL: Yeah. 0:59:38.4 Louise: They didn't recognize it since they've been sniffing around threatening to take her off her mom, and because she's being bullied for her size at school. This is like a calamitous failure to see the impact of weight stigma. 0:59:52.9 NL: She's been told that it's her fault that she's been taken away from her mum. They had told her that because she didn't succeed in losing weight, that she doesn't get to live with her mother anymore. Can you imagine? 1:00:02.4 Louise: So her mom. I can't even wrap my head around that. I can't. 1:00:07.2 NL: Well, she feels suicidal, I think I would too. I felt suicidal at her age and for a lot less. It's terrible, it's terrible. And I hope she's hanging on and I hope that... 1:00:14.6 Louise: I wanna tell her that she is awesome. 1:00:17.4 NL: Yes. 1:00:17.9 Louise: If she ever gets to listen to this. But I know the impact. So like when I was 11, my mom left and I remember how much it tore out my heart. 1:00:26.4 NL: Yeah. 1:00:26.9 Louise: You're 11... 1:00:27.5 NL: Yeah. 1:00:28.3 Louise: 12, 13. This is not the time to do this to kids, and this whole idea... The judge said something like, "Oh, you know, gosh, this is gonna be bad... " But here it is, I will read it to you. This is... She actually wrote a letter to the kids. 1:00:42.5 NL: Oh, gosh. 1:00:43.7 Louise: "I know you will feel that in making this o

Hey everybody, Five years ago I made a bad decision. Today, I had the opportunity to correct course and make restitution. "I know some things we could avoid to save embarrassment But everything that breaks you down can also build your character 'Cause people love to see you fail, just be aware of it" ~ NF Thank you, Brian

If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review! Even a sentence can help. Please go to ratethispodcast.com/openloopsFor more Open Loops antics, follow Greg on Instagram @thegregbornsteinGreg wished upon so many stars to make this episode happen. Check out today's guest: Saul Blinkoff is a Hollywood filmmaker who has worked for many high profile clients including; THE WALT DISNEY STUDIOS, NETFLIX and AMAZON. He started his animation career on the DISNEY films Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mulan and Tarzan. Currently, Saul is a Supervising Producer at DREAMWORKS on the new Award Winning series, MADAGASCAR: A LITTLE WILD, and lives in Los Angeles with his wife and four children. Saul also hosts the weekly inspirational podcast, "Life of AWESOME!"Greg wished for a two-hour geek-out session with a Disney insider about the magic behind the commercialism. What makes a great piece of storytelling in animation? What was Walt thinking when he came up with Main Street USA? Why did they get rid of the Back to the Future ride at Universal? They even talk about the "controversial" things animators hid in your favorite childhood classics, as well as what it really takes to live a sustainably AWESOME life. Saul lives one. Dreams do come true. 'Cause after this guest, you'll know how to live an awesome life, too. Saul's Links: saulblinkoff.comLife of Awesome podcast is available on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher. Follow Saul's podcast, write a 5 star review if it inspires you, and follow @Saul.Blinkoff on Instagram for more LIFE OF AWESOME motivation. 

August 3, 2021 - In the wake of the city of Albany adopting strict eviction protections, the progressive advocacy group Citizen Action of New York, which successfully lobbied for the measure, talks about why their campaign worked and how it could be exported to other upstate cities or the state legislature.

The silicon chip inside her head Gets switched to overload And nobody's gonna go to school today She's going to make them stay at home And daddy doesn't understand it He always said she was as good as gold And he can see no reason 'Cause there are no reasons What reason do you need to be sure  The Grover Cleveland Elementary School shooting took place on January 29, 1979, at a public elementary school in San Diego, California, United States. The principal and a custodian were killed; eight children and police officer Robert Robb were injured. A 16-year-old girl, Brenda Spencer, who lived in a house across the street from the school, was convicted of the shootings. Charged as an adult, she pleaded guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon, and was sentenced to life in prison with a chance of parole after 25 years. As of July 2021, she remains in prison. She will be eligible for parole in September 2021. A reporter reached Spencer by phone while she was still in the house after the shooting, and asked her why she had done it. She reportedly answered: "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day," which inspired Bob Geldof and Johnnie Fingers to write the Boomtown Rats song "I Don't Like Mondays". --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/art-mcdermott/support

A dive into the song That's The Way That It Is (Bliss Band Cover) by Uriah Heep   New BMG Boxed Set – Every Day Rocks: https://uriahheep.lnk.to/EveryDayRocksPC   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 14-6 Song: That's The Way That It Is (Bliss Band Cover) Air date: 8-2-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: Peter Goalby Guitar, Vocals: Mick Box Bass, Vocals: Bob Daisley Drums, Vocals: Lee Kerslake Keyboards, Vocals: John Sinclair   Lyrics: I've been thinking about What you said last night And for all your fine words You still don't have it right   'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change You can scream at me But the powers that be Won't ever hear your voice   'Cause they're lost in their own importance No, they'll never hear your voice   'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it   I've heard all your stories Of how the few can be strong And how you'll fight to the end Just to prove me wrong   'Cause that's the way that you are And you won't ever change it But don't come cryin' to me If your fanciful schemes Don't turn out like you planned   'Cause you're chasin' after something That keeps slippin' through your hand   'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it   That's the way that it is And you won't change it   'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is And you won't ever change it 'Cause that's the way that it is     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

On this weeks episode I sit down with Davey from Debt Cemetary, a punk band from Toronto. We talk about starting out as a solo project and forming the quintet that they have now. We also talk about the journey from the first EP to now, their latest single, and Canadian Rock Wrestling. We also talk about Davey's time at Fest and Pouzza Fest, which for people that don't know are the prime punk-esk fest in North America. Lastly we round out the episode with some great stories from Davey's time in music. This episode features the songs "Kindasortamaybe (Ft. Josh Riley)" and "Daved And Confused" You can find Debt Cemetary on all streaming sites and here: debtcemetary.bandcamp.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/beers-with-bands/message

Penn's favorite sound, a review of Shadow Kingdom, & whom among us is responsible for the deaths of the most birds. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“Don't worry about a thing, 'Cause every little thing gonna be all right” ~ Bob Marley

Opening Song:  Brokenness Aside by All Sons and Daughters Lyrics: Will Your grace run out If I let You down 'Cause all I know Is how to run   'Cause I am a sinner If it's not one thing it's another Caught up in words Tangled in lies   But You are a Savior And You take brokenness aside And make it beautiful Beautiful   Will You call me child When I tell you lies 'Cause all I know Is how to cry   'Cause I am a sinner If it's not one thing it's another Caught up in words Tangled in lies But You are a Savior And You take brokenness aside And make it beautiful Beautiful Passage:  1   In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel. And they ravaged the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem.   2 It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking on the roof of the king's house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. 3 And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, “Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” 4 So David sent messengers and took her, and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she had been purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, “I am pregnant.”   6 So David sent word to Joab, “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent Uriah to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked how Joab was doing and how the people were doing and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” And Uriah went out of the king's house, and there followed him a present from the king. 9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king's house with all the servants of his lord, and did not go down to his house. 10 When they told David, “Uriah did not go down to his house,” David said to Uriah, “Have you not come from a journey? Why did you not go down to your house?” 11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah dwell in booths, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are camping in the open field. Shall I then go to my house, to eat and to drink and to lie with my wife? As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing.” 12 Then David said to Uriah, “Remain here today also, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 And David invited him, and he ate in his presence and drank, so that he made him drunk. And in the evening he went out to lie on his couch with the servants of his lord, but he did not go down to his house.   14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 In the letter he wrote, “Set Uriah in the forefront of the hardest fighting, and then draw back from him, that he may be struck down, and die.” (2 Samuel 11:1–15 ESV) Musical Reflection: Prelude No. 1 in E Minor (Andantino expressivo) by Heitor Villa-Lobos, played by John Williams (0:00-0:49 fade out)  Reflection Notes:  The slow, sad melody of the guitar in this prelude floats over chords that press on in haste, as if to avoid the tragic harmonies it is creating.  Prayer: This is another day, O Lord. I know not what it will bring forth, but make me ready, Lord, for whatever it may be. If I am to stand up, help me to stand bravely. If I am to sit still, help me to sit quietly. If I am to lie low, help me to do it patiently. And if I am to do nothing, let me do it gallantly. Make these words more than words, and give me the Spirit of Jesus. Amen.

Also featured: Near fatal accident because of a finger in the butt! 99 Cent Advice! Spikeball in the Olympics! Olympians banging on their cardboard beds! Doing the Wim Hof! Dad finally getting his new old car! Bezos's space flight with the youngest and oldest person in space! Setting up classrooms! Getting a tattoo of someone 1 week after dating them! E-mail us your questions & any advice topics you want us to tackle on "The Boys' Room!" - Drummanddrummerpodcast@gmail.com Check us out at: Instagram - @drummpodcast Tiktok - @drummpodcast

Everybody get up it's time to slam now We got a real jam goin' down Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance do your dance at the Space Jam Alright Come on and slam and welcome to the jam Come on and slam if you want to jam Party people in the house lets go It's your boy "Jayski" a'ight so Pass that thing and watch me flex Behind my back, you know what's next To the jam, all in your face Wassup, just feel the bass Drop it, rock it, down the room Shake it, quake it, space KABOOM Just work that body, work that body Make sure you don't hurt nobody Get wild and lose your mind Take this thing into over-time Hey DJ, TURN IT UP QCD, goin' burn it up C'mon y'all get on the floor So hey, let's go a'ight Everybody get up it's time to slam now We got a real jam goin' down Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance do your dance at the Space Jam Alright Wave your hands in the air if you feel fine We're gonna take it into overtime Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance, do your dance at the Space Jam Alright C'mon it's time to get hyped say hoop there it is C'mon all the fellas say hoop there it is C'mon one time for the ladies say hoop there it is Now all the fellas say hoop there it is C'mon and run, baby run C'mon, c'mon, do it, run baby run Yeah, you want a hoop so shoot, baby shoot C'mon and slam, and welcome to the jam C'mon and slam, if you want to jam C'mon and slam, and welcome to the jam C'mon and slam, if you want to jam Slam, Bam, Thank you ma'am Get on the floor and jam It's the QCD on the microphone Girl you got me in the zone C'mon, c'mon and start the game Break it down, tell me your name We the team, I'm the coach Let's dance all night from coast to coast Just slide, from left to right Just slide, yourself the night QCD, drop the base 3-point-1 all in your face Jam on it, let's have some fun Jam on it, One on One You run the hole and I run the "D" So c'mon baby just jam for me Everybody get up it's time to slam now We got a real jam goin' down Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance do your dance at the Space Jam Alright Wave your hands in the air if you feel fine We're gonna take it into overtime Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance, do your dance at the Space Jam Alright Hey ladies "Yah" Y'all ready stop "NO!" Y'all want to know why "Why?" 'Cause it's a Slam Jam Fellas "Yah" Y'all ready to stop "No!" Y'all want to know why? "Why?" It's time to slam now Everybody get up it's time to slam now We got a real jam goin' down Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance do your dance at the Space Jam Alright Wave your hands in the air if you feel fine We're gonna take it into overtime Welcome to the Space Jam Here's your chance, do your dance at the Space Jam Alright C'mon, everybody say, nah nah nah nah nah C'mon, C'mon let me hear you say, hey ey ey o C'mon, C'mon everybody, nah nah nah nah nah Just take the time to say hey ey ey o Check it out, check it out, y'all ready for this? You know it Nah, y'all ain't ready, y'all ready for this? You know it C'mon check it out, y'all ready to jam? You know it Nah, I, I don't think so, y'all ready to jam? You know it C'mon   2nd Anniversary of TwoFold Podcast (1:00) It's Time To Slam Jam (3:08) Phil's Space Jam Experience (15:41) Tim's Journey Through The Jam (24:4) The Space Jam Soundtrack (31:45) Comparing A New Legacy to Original (40:49) Bugs Finds His Friends? (47:01) Secret Space Jam Wars (50:56) The Final Game Progression (1:01:28) What Did We Learn Today? (1:12:02)   Phil's "Epic" Space Jam Poster he saw and Traced  The Back of the German Cereal Box

In today's episode, I welcome Bryan Colley! Bryan is a playwright and director, and is premiering his latest work about the 19th amendment, "On Account of Sex," at this year's Kansas City Fringe Festival, running July 18th through August 1st. Learn about his unique approach to naming his theater companies, his writing process, and how he keeps his productions lean and impactful. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is a cut-out version of his Fringe show's promotional image.)   Watch Bryan Colley's KC Fringe Festival Show, "On Account of Sex": https://kcfringe.org/2021-shows/on-account-of-sex/  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 61 - Bryan Colley Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Bryan Colley. He is a playwright and producer, and I actually had the opportunity to get to know him just, just a little bit, but through Kansas City Fringe Festival. That's  sort of where we initially got connected. And I am just so delighted. Bryan has such a rich background, and has been involved in the Fringe Festival and as a playwright for years and years, and just brings so much just interesting experience to the table today. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, Bryan. [00:02:54] Bryan Colley: Hello. Thank you for having me. [00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in art in general, writing specifically and, and take it from there, if you don't mind. [00:03:09]Bryan Colley: Okay. I'm not sure how far you want to go back. But I think I've wanted to be a writer since I was a teenager or at least to do something creative. I do art as well. I went to The Art Institute for a year. My college years were kind of scattered, trying to figure out where I wanted to be, because I didn't know if I wanted to do art or if I wanted to make movies. And somehow I ended up doing theater and didn't think I wanted to write plays until I wrote my first play. And it was such a good experience that I said, "Hey, this is something I can do." So after college, I started writing plays and also spent a long time writing screenplays. I'm one of the founding members of the Kansas City Screenwriters that's still meeting. I think we started in 1992 and we're still meeting today, just a very small group of people who wanna write screenplays. And I haven't really written a screenplay in a long time, but I did spend a long time writing them before Fringe came along, and then I kind of committed myself to writing plays after that, just at, at the very minimum, at least doing one show a year. Every year for Fringe was a goal, which I have done every year since 2008. [00:04:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so I know that Fringe probably helped narrow down your trajectory, but I-- it seems like you, how should we say ,you got "volunteered" into a broader role with Fringe. And so, your role kind of has expanded from not only being on the producing side, but then also being on the whole administrative/ marketing genius side. Is that correct? [00:04:57] Bryan Colley: That is correct. My wife, Tara, and I went to Fringe its first year and went and saw the shows there and came away from it thinking, "Hey, we can do this." And so the next year we wrote our first show for the Fringe, which was called "Jesus Christ, King of Comedy." And it was supposed to be a sketch show basically around a theme of, of basically Jesus is an entertainer and it's actually more about showbiz life than it is about the Bible or anything. But it was supposed to be like a group show. We had invited a whole bunch of people we knew to write a sketch and a one guy wrote a sketch about Jesus's birthday, where Joseph is there trying to have a happy birthday with, with a young Jesus, and then God shows up and kind of steals all the thunder, as gods will do. And, and then, so that gave us the idea to make the show about Joseph, as this put-upon father, who's raising this kid that isn't his and kind of life the life of Joseph, which we never get to see. [00:06:06] So we took all these different sketches and kind of built a story out of it. And that was our very first Fringe show. But I'm also a graphic designer and had been doing graphic graphic design work. And I was friends with Cheryl Kimmi who runs the Fringe and, I guess I was complaining a lot about their printed program, which was basically just an Excel Sheet dumped onto a piece of paper for people to try to figure out what show they wanted to go see. And so I offered to help the next year after that, to do their program for them and have been doing it ever since. I've been at it every year, honing it down and trying to get better and better programs so that people can find the shows they want to go. And so, and that led to other administrative roles with Fringe. I basically volunteer and help out what they need to do and work behind the scenes that way. [00:06:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And every fringe producer who comes through Kansas City is super grateful  to have Bryan because Bryan, you are very good at articulating exactly what helps to capture someone's attention. If you're not familiar with the Fringe Festival, anyone who's listening, there are hundreds of shows to choose from every year traditionally. And so Bryan is always really good at helping producers who might not have the graphic design or writing background to sort of say, "Hey, here are some best practices to get people's attention and, you know, do this, don't do this." So anyway, we're all super thankful to have Bryan on board, to say that as a blanket statement, because it is true. So thank you for taking a spreadsheet and making it beautiful. That's such a great story. Go ahead. [00:07:49]Bryan Colley: What happens is Tara and I-- usually most of the shows we've done at Fringe Tara and I write together, and so after the playwriting is done, she will, she directs all the plays. So she would go off with the actors and she will direct a play. So I'm, as a playwright, I've got nothing left to do. So I put a lot of my attention to marketing. So I apply my graphic design skills and I do the marketing. And I guess I had a few successful shows, so Fringe thought I was some kind of a marketing guru. So they kind of have me work with marketing for Fringe as well and help all the other producers market their show. And I help as much as I can, so. [00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes and we appreciate it. So definitely. And yeah, I love the story especially of your first show and how that came together. And that sounds so fascinating to come from a perspective that, like you said, we don't get to hear. So I like the imagination behind that. And so that was 2008? Or is that when you first saw the Fringe. [00:08:54] Bryan Colley: No, that was 2008 was our first show. [00:08:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then after that, you've literally produced at least one per year. Do you ever run out of ideas? I mean, obviously you don't, but how does that writing process work for you? [00:09:06]Bryan Colley: It varies, of course, with each show. Sometimes we plan way ahead and have ideas going in to the show. We usually don't start talking about the next year's Fringe until after, you know, until that that show is done. And then we start talking about, what are we going to do next year? And so it usually takes about a year to write a show. Sometimes we'll have an idea in advance, but usually not. So it's just kind of looking for that thing that we have not done before, is basically looking for an idea or a concept or a style or something that we haven't done yet, because it's really easy to just... Well, well, you might notice is most theater companies are a company and they have a name and they produce shows and there's some at Fringe, theater companies that come back every year and produce shows [00:09:54]But you'll notice with our shows practically every year, it's a different theater company name that we use on the idea that once you established a theater company as a name, you're pretty much locking yourself into doing a certain kind of show. So this theater company will do this kind of show and you know what to expect from them. And we didn't want that. We didn't want to be a theater company and we didn't want to be locked down into saying, this is what we do. We wanted to... actually people not know what's going to come next and not know what to expect. And so we changed. We make up a theater company every year and this theater company we make up would produce that kind of show. [00:10:35]But it's been interesting because sometimes we will go back and reuse the theater company name, like for our show this year. Our second show we did at Fringe was called The Lingerie Shop, which was sort of like this kind of feminist fantasy kind of thing, comedy, and the theater company we, we used was called the Fourth Wave Theater, which is like a feminist reference and, and that was all well and good, but now we're doing a new show that also has this kind of feminist theme. So we're using the Fourth Wave Theater Company has come back and is producing their second show. So that's kind of how it was. And then on years where we don't know or where, what we're planning to do falls through, and we have to do something else, then we call it Plan B Production. [00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Perfect. [00:11:28] Bryan Colley: And it's happened twice, I think. Yeah. It's twice that we've had to fall back on the Plan B Productions. [00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's brilliant. [00:11:36] Bryan Colley: Sometimes things don't work out. [00:11:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed, especially in the art world, especially with live theater. Yup. Well, that's awesome. I, I don't think I realized that, but that makes more sense, 'cause I'll, you know-- once you start participating in Fringe shows or the festivals long enough, then you know, you sort of start to get to know each other. And it's really fun. There's like a lot of comradery with Fringe and, and it makes so much more sense that you're under a different title every time. 'Cause there would be times where I'd be like, "Yeah, which one is his this year?" And that makes sense. It's because you use different theater companies. That's funny. I love it. And that's smart! 'Cause like you said, it doesn't tie you down to anyone genre or topic or style. Like I just, yeah. Interesting. I like that approach. [00:12:26] Bryan Colley: I mean the most common thing we have in our shows is that we wrote, wrote them, but there've been two shows that we didn't write that we've done. So even that doesn't hold true, and I guess you could say Tara directs them all, except the one we did last year where she was the star. So we had other directors. [00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. She has a background obviously in directing and acting as well. Did you guys meet through theater or through different means? [00:12:54]Bryan Colley: Yeah. After college I started working with the Gorilla Theater, and basically I got out of college. I was looking for stuff to do. One of my other college friends was doing Gorilla Theater and invited me in and I just started doing it, whatever they needed to be done. A lot of it was sound design or running the sound, soundboard. They didn't have anyone to do that. And eventually it was like, well, we need to market our shows better. So I started doing marketing. I eventually ended up on the Board of Directors and doing like the financial stuff and writing a grant. And basically it was just, this is what they need. So I'll step in and help out. But anyway, one of the last Gorilla Theater shows I did was directed by Tara. And, and we'd met on a Gorilla Theater show right before, or maybe it wasn't Gorilla. [00:13:42] We met. She'd done some Gorilla shows. She did some other shows. We met back in the nineties doing theater. And then we, but she was just an actress then, and I kind of pushed her into her directing in going into Fringe as a director. And partly because she wasn't happy with how theater was done where she wants more of a process kind of thing, where she wants to work with the actors more. And she never got that as an actor. It was always just kind of like, "here's your blocking, you know, your lines, let's do a show" kind of thing, and there's not really a process to it. So she brings that process when she does the Fringe shows. I suppose we probably have more rehearsals than normal, but, but we always give actors a lot of input into the final process. [00:14:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's nice. I think it's nice 'cause it sounds like it's much more up her alley, much more her style of interacting and producing these plays. So that's, that's great. I mean, that's such the, the nice benefit about being able to have your own productions that you produce and, you know, she's working with you as the writer. So, you know, if there are any differences in interpretation, y'all can work that out. And I mean, that sounds like a pretty good, good partnership right there. [00:15:00]Bryan Colley: Yeah. That's what I mean. I'm, I'm more open probably than anyone to changing the script and improving it and doing whatever. And because she's a co-writer, she feels complete freedom to just change whatever she wants to change. She doesn't have to even ask me if it's a good idea. So, yeah, it helps that way if you want to do a process, if you want to have more of a process in developing a show. Like that it helps to have the playwright there and to be able to just change whatever you want. [00:15:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. Well, and then, so I know that you guys have a show that you're obviously producing for this year's Fringe Festival, how are you at the filming stage of it yet? Or are you guys still kind of rehearsing and getting, getting it up to where it's ready to film? Where are you in that whole process? And maybe just a little bit about your show-- a little teaser. [00:15:56] Bryan Colley: A little teaser... it's already recorded. It's actually the show we wrote for last year's Fringe before COVID happened. And we were all ready to produce it. It's called "On Account of Sex" and it's about the, the long process to get, to pass the 19th amendment, where the women won the right to vote, and in 1920. And of course, 2020 was the hundred year anniversary of the amendment. And so that's kind of why we plan to do the show for 2020. And it's the only time we've ever written a show that was timely in any way. And so of course, all of our plans went awry with COVID and we weren't able to produce the show. We were just getting to the point of starting rehearsals when, when COVID happened and we decided we didn't want to do the show in any kind of virtual way, any kind of like a Zoom kind of thing. So we just said, "Well, we'll do it next year." [00:16:56] And now here we are a year later, and we're still not having a live Fringe, so we still aren't able to do the show. But back in August on the anniversary of the 19th amendment, we did a, like a reading of the play using Zoom. And so we just had a one night only, this is the anniversary, so we're going to do and we put together a reading of the show. And so we still have that recording and we're going to use that for our show for Fringe next year, or this year. And then hopefully next year we can actually produce the show. [00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely miss in-person theater. I'm so grateful that there are ways to adapt to the times, but yes, I, I miss I miss in-person theater. Well, that shows sounds fantastic. I can't wait to watch it. I'm obviously super interested in that subject. And I just think that it's such a great thing that you're addressing and talking about. So that's, that's awesome. Thank you for doing that. And typically find out ticket links and things like that what, early July? I'm trying to remember. [00:18:04] Bryan Colley: I think tickets go on sale July 1st. [00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay, perfect. So yes. So Brian, if there's people who want to watch the show and, and/ or connect with you, is there a good way for them to be on the lookout for that? [00:18:17]Bryan Colley: They should just go to kcfringe.org and they can sign up for the mailing list and be informed of everything that's going on. [00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. And then your theater company this year, plus the title just one more time. So we're, we're squared away, ready to watch it. [00:18:34] Bryan Colley: Right. Our show is called "On Account of Sex" and the theater company is Fourth Wave Theater. [00:18:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes, we'll definitely be on the lookout for that. Thankfully with the virtual format, now it's so accessible, so you don't even have to be local to Kansas City anymore. You can literally watch this from the comfort of your home anywhere. So yeah, definitely be able to look out for that. Bryan, I'm curious, you know, you've kind of led a very artistic life with your different ventures. And I'm, I'm curious if you have any advice for someone who might be interested in doing something maybe a little bit on the side. I mean, you have your graphic design as well, but maybe for somebody who is thinking about producing a show at some point, but just hesitant. What advice would you have for somebody like you? [00:19:21]Bryan Colley: I would say you just have to go there. Don't don't hesitate to go and make a fool of yourself. When we did the Jesus Christ, our motto was "forgive us for, we know not what we do." So and that model still applies to everything we do, because we always try to do, we try to do stuff that we don't know what we're doing. We, we try to do something we haven't done before. So almost every show is like, "Well, I don't, I don't know what we're doing this time, but we're doing it." And whether, you know, 'cause we have done musicals, we have done an opera, we have done a variety of different shows. We did a show in a planetarium. So every time it's, it's a new experience for us. So we're learning every time and it's, and it's basically like doing it all over for the first time. [00:20:07]Fringe is great for that. I mean, that's the best thing about Fringe is anybody can just go in and do something and, and not only is it a welcome environment for that, the, the audience is welcoming to that too. They're not, they're not paying $50, $60 tickets and expecting a big professional show. They know what they're getting into. They're very forgiving of mistakes. They know the format, they know what Fringe is and, and they know it's experimental and a lot of people doing it for the first time. So it's just kind of, that's it just a place to go and do something, do whatever, whatever, whatever you fancy and, and, and the, that it's, it's wide open to whatever you want to do. It's like any, any crazy idea will, will fly there. So. [00:21:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yes. Love it. Yep. Just go do it. I like it. And I, I do agree. I think Fringe is one of the the best outlets that I've found. And it's, it's not very cost-prohibitive to produce a show through Fringe too. And I know a lot of times that's a concern when you're first starting out. So yeah. Fringe is a great connection. There are Fringes literally all across the world, so definitely try to find whatever's local to you and see what the process is like, because I think you'll find it a lot-- I mean, it's a lot of work-- but it's a lot more accessible than you think it is. So. [00:21:36] Bryan Colley: And the hardest part, I think, for people doing new-- for people just getting out there for the first time, especially if you're producing something for the first time, the hardest part is finding an audience and finding people to come see your show, because nobody knows who you are and you don't have this loyal following. So that's another thing Fringe is great for because there's already an audience there. There's people going to shows and looking for something to go see. So it's a lot easier just to find an audience and get people to see your show. [00:22:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are moments that stand out to you, either witnessing someone watch your art, or you participating in someone else's art, but that just sort of stand out as this moment that mattered. And I'm just curious what that might look like for you if you have any examples that come to mind. [00:22:27]Bryan Colley: Oh, well, there's probably a lot of those moments. I mean, I've, I've seen a lot of shows that have blown me away and just really impressed me. And they're not always the biggest, the best. In fact, they're very rarely the big, biggest, and best show. It's usually the little scrappy productions and kind of stuff you have to seek out that have really impressed me. It was just creativity and, and theatricality and kind of stuff because they don't have, you know, a full staff and a full shop and can build sets and do all the traditional stagecraft. They have to be creative and come up with different ways to do things. So there's been a lot of stuff over the years that's really blown me away and I try to incorporate. You know, as a playwright, you, you typically think of the playwright is like, well, they have these words and they write the dialogue. And, but as a playwright, you have a lot more tools available to you to do that because you can say, "I want this character to dance. I want this, I want there to be music here. I want, you know, this should be poetry." [00:23:36] You have all the theatrical tools at your disposal that you can pull in and use in your play. So, so I try to be aware of that. If I want to use mime, if I want to use masks, if I want to do this or that you, you want to be aware of what's out there and be able to use, utilize all of that and make something that's theatrical. You don't need a huge budget to produce theater. You just need to be creative about how you approach it so that you can, you can tack tackle big subjects. You know, I keep telling myself someday, I'm going to write a play that requires a set. And it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, you just, you find other ways to do things when you're, when you're-- and, and audiences, I think audiences like that. I think, I think there have been people that reacted to our shows and it just like, they, they liked the creative approach and, and I know some of the shows, a few of the shows I think have reached a higher level, what you typically expect from a Fringe. So I wouldn't say all of them do, but I think a couple of them have. [00:24:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I like what you're saying about the sets. And I think that that is such a, an interesting dynamic of, you know, like, you'll go and see a Broadway production or like a Cirque du Soleil show or something like that. And the sets are integral to the choreography and, and all of it, and it's amazing. Like, it, it blows you away just because you think, "Oh my gosh, the creativity in that." But then, like you said, you'll go this local theater company or a dance company or whatever, and it's kind of art speaking for itself and doesn't have all the glitz behind it. And sometimes that's really impactful just that way. 'Cause you're, you're not necessarily distracted by the sets or the props or things like that. You're really kind of more focused on the art itself and that's where some of that brilliance can shine through. So I actually like your, you know, your challenge for yourself of "how do I create this and not use sets? How can I be creative and think about this in a different way? And what would that look like if I do that?" So kudos to you. That's awesome. [00:25:46]Bryan Colley: Well, yeah. I mean, it's partly because, I mean, my plays are not getting produced by big theaters, so I don't have that experience, you know, to draw from. But, you know, I always, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how could this, how can this be produced as cheaply as possible? I'm not writing something that requires a huge budget, you know? [00:26:09]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Yep, absolutely. [00:26:13]Bryan Colley: My probably worst sin is, is-- it's hard. I find it hard to write anything with fewer than five actors. So it always seems to end up at about five actors or so, five or more. So, you know, if you really want to write cheap theater, you can't have that many actors, you know, and especially if you're doing Fringe shows and there's artists out there who are professional, and this is all they do is Fringe and they travel around the country or around the world and do, do their Fringe shows. And usually these shows are one or two people, you know, because they have to be able to travel and travel cheaply, you know, and be able to produce it as cheaply as possible. So, so people have always told us we should take our shows to other Fringe festivals, but logistically it's just really hard when you have five actors who all have their own schedules and trying to pack a show up and, yeah, it's just makes it really tough. [00:27:12]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, I can, I can relate to that. It's, it is challenging when you have a little bit of a bigger group of people and you're like, "Yes, we're going to travel." And then you think about all the logistics and you're like, "Well, maybe not, maybe not right now." But yeah, no, that is that's really cool. I really like learning more about your process. It was so interesting to hear about, you know, the fact that you use different theater companies and why, and you know, your stance on all of the different things. So thank you for sharing all of that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. [00:27:48] Bryan Colley: Okay. Three questions. [00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Three questions. Okay. So the first is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:27:58]Bryan Colley: Okay, well, I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else. [00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:29:37]Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person. [00:30:23]So but you know, it's, you go through life learning things, you get an education, you read books, you, you know, I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, well, I've learned all this for what reason? It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world. [00:31:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's title, show notes, the inspiration, just something to give the viewer a little bit of context as to what was going on in the artist's mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide the context. And so it's left solely to the viewer to decide what they will. [00:31:47]Bryan Colley: Well, I think it depends on the art, I think, but I generally think exclusive. I think art should stand on its own and speak for itself and not require context. But as I just said, everyone has a different experience. So if you don't provide context, somebody may not understand it or may not be interested, but that's fine because you're, you know, art's, art's not for everyone. It's for those who need it and what you're offering somebody out there might need and might react to. And that's what you're going for. But so, but I think the art should stand on its own, but I see no problem with providing context, if you want. And some things are better with context and some, some the context doesn't matter, but if you provide the context, it's only for those people who are really wanting that context, or really want to know more. I don't think it should be a prerequisite. I think people should experience the art and say, "Wow, that's really interesting. I want to know more." And then go after the context. I mean, that's how I approach it anyway. It's just like, I find something that interests me and then I want to know more about it and do the research. But, but if I do the research first, it just kind of... [00:33:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it impacts the way you view it, for sure, no matter what. I mean, it couldn't not, there's your double negative for the day. Yeah. And I, yeah, that makes complete sense to me, the way that you were talking about it. I'm curious, when you produce your plays, do you guys provide any sort of program or is it, or, or if it's a program, is that just sort of like, Lisa was played by so-and-so and Daniel was played-- you know what I mean? Is it, do you provide context when you do stuff or not? [00:33:32] Bryan Colley: We always do a program, of course, ' cause actors love to have their bios and like to think and sometimes the program is more fun than others. I wouldn't say they really provide context. And I know when we did the opera, we provided the libretto so people could read what was being sung because, you know, it can be hard to follow. Not that they could read during the show, cause it was dark in the theater anyway, but at least they can go out afterwards and read what they were singing if they want to. So yeah, it depends on the show, what, what we think the show needs. Sometimes it needs more. I know Tara has a real disdain for director's notes. So we don't really do that. We might provide just some background, but mostly we just put the actors' bios in and maybe add some fun stuff if we can think of it. So. [00:34:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's totally great. And, and like you said, it's, it's completely up to each individual artist. So again, no wrong answer. It's just really interesting to me to hear different people's approaches and their reasoning behind it 'cause I think, you know, it's, it is subjective to the artist. It's subjective to the art itself. And so I just, I'm always just fascinated by, by what people say about that. So great answer. I loved it. Yeah. Well, thank you again, so very much for being here today, Bryan. I really, really appreciate it. And I do highly encourage anyone who is interested in Bryan's work to definitely check out this year's Fringe Festival. Again, tickets are supposed to go live in-- we'll just say early July, just in case anything, but just keep your eyes open for that kcfringe.org. And then yeah, definitely take a look at that.  Well, thanks again, Brian, that was so much fun to chat with you today. I'm looking forward to seeing this production, of course. And I appreciate you. Thanks. [00:35:23] Bryan Colley: I guess we should mention that the Fringe Festival itself will be July 18th through August 1st. Those are the actual dates you can actually watch the show. [00:35:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you for that. Yes. Yes, exactly. So that will give you your timeline for how long you can watch it. So you'll, you'll have plenty of opportunities to grab those tickets and watch the production. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:35:53]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:36:03]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Opening Song:  “Promises” by Antoine Bradford  Lyrics: [Verse 1] Darker the days and darker the nights Is where Your love shines And in my lowest place, in the highest of heights With You, I'll abide   [Pre-Chorus] Where all of my cares don't seem to worry me anymore And all of Your grace will, grace will carry me in Your arms   [Chorus] And I can't help but sing Sing with all my heart Of Your promises No, I can't help but sing Sing with all my heart Of Your promise Your promises to me   [Verse 2] And neither life nor death, joy or depression Can sway Your affections 'Cause at Calvary You permanently declared Your love for me Passage:  1   Now when the king lived in his house and the LORD had given him rest from all his surrounding enemies, 2 the king said to Nathan the prophet, “See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells in a tent.” 3 And Nathan said to the king, “Go, do all that is in your heart, for the LORD is with you.” 4 But that same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, 5 “Go and tell my servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD: Would you build me a house to dwell in? 6 I have not lived in a house since the day I brought up the people of Israel from Egypt to this day, but I have been moving about in a tent for my dwelling. 7 In all places where I have moved with all the people of Israel, did I speak a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, saying, “Why have you not built me a house of cedar?”' 8 Now, therefore, thus you shall say to my servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel. 9 And I have been with you wherever you went and have cut off all your enemies from before you. And I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth. 10 And I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them, so that they may dwell in their own place and be disturbed no more. And violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly, 11 from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the LORD declares to you that the LORD will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, (2 Samuel 7:1–14 ESV) Musical Reflection:  Après un rêve by Gabriel Faure (0:00-0:27 fade out)  Reflection Notes:  The piano's gentle and steady accompaniment allows the cello to be featured and sing with vocal qualities in Faure's song, originally written for voice. The melody reflects ambiguous tonality, but the rhythmic consistency of the piano part provides a grounding foundation.  Prayer:  This is another day, O Lord. I know not what it will bring forth, but make me ready, Lord, for whatever it may be. If I am to stand up, help me to stand bravely. If I am to sit still, help me to sit quietly. If I am to lie low, help me to do it patiently. And if I am to do nothing, let me do it gallantly. Make these words more than words, and give me the Spirit of Jesus. Amen.

I've been so low Felt the wind blow Like I was a screen door In a thunderstorm Yeah, I've been down I've been laid out But you always were What I came here for Waiting all day Just for my say For a bell to ring For the first sting Yeah, I been blue That ain't nothing new It's you my friend You're why I get up again I've make mistakes And I've been hard hit I say so what So what if I did I'm the clear eyed I'm the comeback kid It's been a rough year Been some tough tears I've lost so fast All that I had But when it's time to I'll fight for you 'Cause you know you are Why I've come so far I've make mistakes And I've been hard hit I say so what So what if I did I'm the clear eyed I'm the comeback kid

A dive into the song Out On The Street by Uriah Heep   New BMG Boxed Set – Every Day Rocks: https://uriahheep.lnk.to/EveryDayRocksPC   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 13-7 Song: Out on The Street Air date: 7-12-2021   Performers: Lead & Backing Vocals, Piano, Percussion: John Sloman Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar, Backing Vocals: Trevor Boulder Stacatto Drums, Percussion: Chris Slade Obx, Vocoder Organ, Piano, Guitar, Backing Vocals: Ken Hensley Timpani: Gerry Bron   Lyrics: Out on the street, dead on my feet At the mercy of the stone-cold night It's hard to compete In a dead-end street With frustration in your line of sight   Do you ever stop to think Do you ever stop at all Do you have the time to feel And if you do Do you know the feeling's real   Followed a sign that pointed the way And I found myself Right back at that start I like to feel good I've tried feeling sad But I can't stand a broken heart   Don't wanna wait till my dyin' day To realise I guess I'm lucky in A strange kinda way 'Cause it's clear before my eyes   A grey cloud they say, hides a surprise But it rained until I lost my belief Just close your eyes We'll show you the way But I believe I've lost my faith   One man speaks and one man does While another soul wields the sword I hear you all, but I still can't see Just who it is Who speaks the chosen word     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

A dive into the song Won't Have To Wait Too Long by Uriah Heep   New BMG Boxed Set – Every Day Rocks: https://uriahheep.lnk.to/EveryDayRocksPC   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 13-6 Song: Won't Have To Wait Too Long Air date: 7-9-2021   Performers: Lead & Backing Vocals, Piano, Percussion: John Sloman Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar, Backing Vocals: Trevor Boulder Stacatto Drums, Percussion: Chris Slade Obx, Vocoder Organ, Piano, Guitar, Backing Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: It's a quarter to seven On a Saturday morning I open my eyes After the Friday night I don't worry about The rain upon my window 'Cause where I'm going I know the sun will always shine   So now I'm heading away Down to Rio de Janeiro I'll be leaving all my Lonely times behind And if I'm looking for love in Rio de Janeiro There'll be someone there I know who'll find the time   In this golden place There's a smiling face I've got to find And I won't have to wait too long Before she's mine   My friends are telling me I'm chasing rainbows Or searching for the Gold beneath the sea But rainbows only shine When it's been raining And gold will never Keep you company   So now I'm wonderin' What to say in conversation To the lady of my dreams That I should meet If I speak to her The language of all nations Then I'm sure that she'd be Knocked right off her feet   And I know she will Then I'll love her Till the end of time And I won't have to wait too long Before she's mine   Well I've been happy enough in Rio de Janeiro I've got a woman here That I can call my own It doesn't matter if I'm living here or there 'Cause she used to live Next door to me back home   So if you're thinking that I've settled down forever I'll be telling you You've made a big mistake 'Cause I'll be heading away Down to Denver, Colorado There's a woman there I've got to try and make   She can fill the hole In my heart and soul For a long, long time And I won't have to wait Too long before she's mine   I won't have to wait too long I won't have to wait too long I won't have to wait too long I won't have to wait too long     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

#249 Join the Facebook Group for Men: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheGreatManWithin  Inquire about the Great Man Masterminds: Hello@DominickQ.com ----------- In the words of Bruno Mars: “Today I don't feel like doing anything I just wanna lay in my bed Don't feel like picking up my phone, so leave a message at the tone 'Cause today I swear I'm not doing anything.” - Bruno Mars, The Lazy Song   There's 7% of me that's a lazy, unmotivated slob.   I used to be ashamed of this part of me (the part I call Lazy Dom.)   I was afraid Lazy Dom was actually who I was…and if I slowed down or didn't go turbo 120% of the time…I would descend into a slothenly abyss of nothingness.   All that did was me leading to a constant cycle of BOOM and BURST.   Today, I embrace the 7% of me that's a lazy unmotivated slob.   Because he actually carries some wisdom about what I need to be healthy and balanced long term.   In today's episode, I make a case that the “lazy” part of you deserves a seat at your table.   -DQ

Yo listen up, here's the podcast About a little friends that lives in a pod world And all day and all night And everything he sees is just podcast Like them, inside and outside podcast his house with a blue little podcast And a blue podcast And everything is pod for them And themselves and everybody around 'Cause we ain't got nobody to listen (to listen, to listen, to listen)

A dive into the song Feelings by Uriah Heep     New BMG Boxed Set – Every Day Rocks: https://uriahheep.lnk.to/EveryDayRocksPC     Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 13-3 Song: Feelings Air date: 7-5-2021   Performers: Lead & Backing Vocals, Piano, Percussion: John Sloman Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar, Backing Vocals: Trevor Boulder Stacatto Drums, Percussion: Chris Slade Obx, Vocoder Organ, Piano, Guitar, Backing Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: John Sloman album version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   I remember those magic nights Those nights when it all seemed right But I knew that by mornin' you'd be gone And though you tell me that it's not for long It ain't easy here holdin' on You gotta tell me where I stand   'Cause either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know it must come to an end   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   You'd better know that I've made up my mind I gotta high of a different kind And it's gonna take me where I wanna be Sure I'll miss ya but I gotta choose You can't believe that I came here to lose And you ain't a winner, that's easy to see   So I'll see you around or I'll write And I'll send you some love 'Cause where I wanna go There ain't nothing to do but move   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'     John Sloman single version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   I remember those magic nights Those nights when it all seemed right But I knew that by mornin' you'd be gone And though you tell me that it's not for long It ain't easy here holdin' on You gotta tell me where I stand   'Cause either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know it must come to an end   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'     John Lawton version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'   When we meet Every night in the bar If I'm feelin' alright We'll get high in your car Then come morning And you will be gone You're my five-minute friend And you've gotta move on   And you don't stop me Thinkin' my feelings And I'm hidin' the hurtin' inside And I know how you Set my heart reelin' As I see it and swallow my pride   Well, either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know It must come to an end   And I've got those feelings Empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

Do you believe in aliens? Some mystery objects still defy explanation, and we wonder if aliens would actually care about what we're doing on Earth. Has anyone in the International Olympic Committee ever smoked weed? 'Cause if they had, they'd know cannabis is not a performance enhancing drug... Is Steven Spielberg a hypocrite, or has he had an evolution of thought? After creating a public perception of trying to shut streaming content out of the Oscars, Spielberg's Amblin Entertainment has signed a deal with Netflix. Some black creators are on strike over at TikTok, a reminder that credit for many creators is due. We have an update on the criminal charges filed against the Trump Organization. Will they get Trump? Probably not. Will we ever stop hearing about Trump? Also probably not. LA's City Counsel is cracking down on homeless encampments in a "compassionate approach" get people off the streets. What do we make of the move? BAE Supporter Tiara joins us to talk fashion, women's sizing, and promoting size inclusivity. Check her out on TikTok and Instagram! We've got plenty of recs this week to keep you busy: Silk's Oat Yeah! oat milk (Andrew), NPR Throughline's series on Capitalism (Laura), Dissect: Key Notes (Pam), and Fuller Figure Fuller Bust on Instagram (Tiara). And in this week's installment of After Dark, available on Patreon: What would you do if you won $1 million in one of the vaccination giveaways happening in the U.S.? Is it fair to say most millennials' dream is basic stability? Why property values are making the panel nervous.

In today's episode, I welcome Sharon Glassman! Sharon is the creator, designer, and singer/songwriter of Smile Cards, and has a rich career history as a journalist, voiceover artist, podcast host, storyteller, and author. Her belief in serendipity, where "preparation meets opportunity," has led her along an amazing creative journey. Hear her share about the highs and lows of her life, and how she brings joy to the world through her homemade cards now. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Sharon's cards!)   Get in touch with Sharon Glassman: www.smilesongs.com/vip | www.instagram.com/smile_songs  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 59 - Sharon Glassman Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11]Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sharon Glassman. She is a multimedia artist and she is also the designer and songwriter of smiles, songs, cards, and gifts that sing, which I am just so excited about. So excited to hear her stories. So thank you so much for being here today. [00:02:41] Sharon Glassman: Thanks so much for chatting with me, Lindsey, I'm really excited to chat with you. [00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, I would love it if you would share just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started. And I know you have had such a very cool career, so many different unique opportunities. So I just can't wait to dive in and hear all about them. [00:03:00] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Well, the first image that comes to mind that I feel like started me on the path here, creating cards and gifts that are designed to make folks really feel loved and seen and appreciated and happy, is sitting at my parents' kitchen table around the age of 10 and doing an illustrated book of an original poem. And I was cutting up pieces of paper and covering some of them in tinfoil to make this sort of like multi-layered 3D illustration thing. And I think that was the first step to getting here was sort of breaking the rules. But finding ways to make things combining different things, kind of like peanut butter and chocolate in an arty way to make folks feel good. [00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. And then I know you've done a vast number of things and I can't wait to hear about them, but do you want to speak more to what you're doing right now to start? [00:03:53] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So right now, I have a line of greeting cards for just because reasons about reaching out to a friend, plus the usual stuff like birthdays. I'm working on a new baby card right now. I'm super excited, holiday stuff, moms', dads' day, that kind of stuff. And the way that they sing is that I design a QR code and I link it back to an original song that I write to amplify the colors and the design and the message, because you know, when you're out in the world and something makes you feel happy, it usually doesn't just touch one of your senses with art. It usually engages several of them. So if you see a sunny day and there's a blue sky, and then the breeze blows and you smell a flower, that's a whole bunch of senses combining. And my challenge and a commitment has been, how do I create that feeling for folks? [00:04:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Neat! And I love the idea of including multiple senses in this experience, because I think, oh, that just makes it so much richer. Oh, neat. What a unique idea. Okay. How did you come up with that? [00:05:04]Sharon Glassman: It was an invitation. It was a creative challenge. Very briefly, because my career is a little non-linear, I started out being a terrified style writer in New York City. I'm an introvert by nature. So I function well when I'm listening, when I'm observing, and I really do want the answers to questions, but at that point in my life, I was just way too scared to go to a fashion designer and say, "Hey, let's talk." I was so scared about asking the wrong question. And that led me to hack my career for the first time. And what I began to do was tell stories on stage. I would ask people about their love life. I would ask people their love stories. I would ask questions, but I somehow wasn't scared when it wasn't journalism. [00:05:49] And then I would go share them to make people again, feel loved and appreciated for who they were. I traveled around the country doing this, and that led me to move to Colorado where I became a performing songwriter. And at that point, what had happened was folks in the audience, a lot of them introverts and kindhearted, highly sensitive people would say to me, "That song makes me feel really like you're talking to me and telling me about my best self. If only I could take you home and put you on my wall or have you around, because what I'm seeing when I hear you is so inspiring too." And I thought, "Yeah, let me think about that for a second, because I think I can make that dream come true." [00:06:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. How cool. Well, and I, I'm so intrigued. Okay. So you went from just feeling like you said, kind of fearful and introverted, and so, so was that kind of a discovery of that maybe journalism isn't for you? Or do you still dabble in that at all? Or what kind of happened with that component? [00:07:00] Sharon Glassman: Well, I think it's continued in a number of different ways. I feel like the words that I'm using on my card are a form of journalism because they come from really hearing what folks hear about and need. It's a little bit of copywriting too, which is something else I've done. But what happened for me was the minute that I found my comfort zone, which is an introverted comfort zone, I do things differently. I would never be the kind of journalist that you could send out to cover a five alarm fire or that kind of thing. But I am still a journalist who, on occasion, will do a feature about somebody. I just was doing a column in our local paper called "Ask the Introvert," where I was exploring lifestyle issues for introverts. It comes and goes-- the journalism part-- but really what I think it did was to train me to be observant, to take notes, to recognize a soundbite when I hear one, which again, leads to the lyrics in my songs and the messages on the audio. [00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. So it just has continued to impact you. And of course, those skills that you developed have obviously been useful throughout, you know, your career, even now. And that's, I think really cool how sometimes, you know, a path that we discover isn't for us can still-- those skills and those, those learning experiences that you had can be brought forward into something else. And I think that that's such a magical thing about recognizing that maybe the circumstance wasn't ideal, but this is still pretty cool what you get to do as a result, you know. Yeah, that's just special. All right. I have so many things to ask you about. Okay, so I know that you've also been a voiceover artists for cable TV. Can you share a little bit about that? How cool. [00:08:51]Sharon Glassman:  Sure. And that was a case of serendipity-- What is it? Preparation meeting opportunity. I had gone from being a journalist. I was a copywriter for a cable, big cable TV company. And again, it wasn't my happy place. There were moments that were really exciting that again, would train me about graphic design that I would use later, but I was pretty unhappy and I decided to get some training doing voiceover work and I'd put together my demo tape, my little cassette at that time. And I was down in the subway and I bumped into a guy from the cable company I worked for and he said, "You don't happen to do voiceover, do you? 'Cause I've got this thing that I think would be great for you." And I said, "As a matter of fact, here's my brand new demo tape." And he said, "Okay!" And he called me back and he said, "You're hired for this job." And at the same time, I went to a meet and greet opportunity and got signed by an agent. So I had an agent and a job and that let me transition away from my last corporate job and start sort of creating a career. That's a bit of a mosaic. So there are things that I focus on or I'm doing more at one time. And then there are kind of the backup singers of my career that then let me do things like voiceover, or maybe write an article while I focus on, you know, the business that I'm working on. [00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, so cool. I love those stories of just that sort of serendipity, you know, things coming together, but it's not just random chance you had to do the work too, you know, like you had this demo tape, but that was something that you wanted to pursue and then opportunity intersected. And it was just cool. I love those stories. Awesome. And then I also know that you have been a podcaster yourself or co-host of a podcast and have a pretty cool connection there. Do you want to chat about that too? [00:10:45] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So after I moved to Colorado-- again, something that looked like a door closing or possibly burning down happened-- I was living out kind of in the suberbs. And there was a fire in the house next door that convinced me it was time to move. And I ended up moving up into the Hills to house sit and when I was doing that, somebody said, "Oh, you know, one of your neighbors is a writer for the "Golden Girls."" And I said, "I didn't know that," but I actually announced the Golden Girls on lifetime television back in New York on cable.  It's kind of like that one degree of separation. So they introduced us and we were talking. Yeah. And, he said, "Yeah, I'm going to be working on this podcast for an insurance company. It's branded, branded content as they call it in the business for baby boomers. Would you have any interest in helping me?" and I was like, "That would be awesome." And before you knew it, I was co-hosting it. And we ran for a year on terrestrial radio, both in LA and Colorado. And then of course, as you know, with podcasts, around the globe and perhaps beyond into the universe, that was pretty cool. [00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That is super cool. Yeah. And, oh my goodness. Yes. I just love all these different, cool little things that you've gotten to do. And I know you've been an author as well. And you know, obviously as a journalist-- that, I mean, is obviously a form of writing-- but have you written your own book or what kind of authoring have you done? [00:12:13] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Again, the, the, the winding road that is my career led to some pretty nifty things. And I think we had talked just a little bit earlier that after I left journalism, I sort of hacked it and began telling reported stories on stage. And one story that really caught my attention --we're back in New York now-- was something at the time called Operation Santa Claus that had an amazing history. In New York City, there's a very large central post office. And it's a very dramatic building. It's a stunningly beautiful Beaux Arts building. And what I found out was that every year around Christmas time, they would take letters to Santa written by kids and families who needed help with gifts for themselves or gifts for each other, and they would make them available to the general public to answer. And this had been going on since the Great Depression. It started when people at that time needed help and postal workers would actually fulfill those letters. And then over the years, it grew into something just spectacular. And my joke about it was that the person who would just steal your cab a second earlier was stealing it to get to the post office to answer a letter. So it kind of brought out the best in New Yorkers. [00:13:22] And there were more letters than there were Santa's Secret Santas at that time. And I thought that that was-- I could help. So it's a combination of reporting on the story, but then also I had had an experience that I-- I tend to like to use my personal experiences, to show my foibles in a way to invite people, to not be scared of making a mistake, but to get involved and to help. I had gone to the post office and I come from a Jewish family, not a religious family, but a culturally Jewish family. So we weren't allowed to have Christmas. It was like the great forbidden guest. And this was a way for me to sneak in and be an anonymous Santa and get my Christmas fix at the same time. [00:14:01] And so I answered three letters and I made a ginormous mistake. I was just old enough to not know what the kids were wanting. And one of my letters asked for something, asked me for a First Down jacket. And I got very emotional. I was like, "This child has never had a down jacket. They want their first down jacket." I'm going to go get this the puffiest, warmest, dorkiest, you know, jacket that I can find. And the story that I would tell to invite other people to participate would be after running around town and getting this really-- as I said-- big puffy jacket, I managed to get it into the deadline and get it to the post office, mail it just in time, only to walk outside and see a really cool- looking little kid wearing a very thin down jacket with a big label on it that said First Down. [00:14:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh! Oh, no. So it was a brand. It wasn't a style. [00:14:55] Sharon Glassman: Right, right. [00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, jeez Louise. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. [00:14:59] Sharon Glassman: Right? And it took me back to a Christmas experience I had had as a kid when we, you know, when I was still a believer in Santa, when I wanted a Easy-Bake Oven. And Santa brought me a Suzy Homemaker Oven, and I was like, "What's wrong with Santa? Why doesn't Santa get that there's an enormous difference? One of these things is really cool and one of them is super dorky. I'll never be like that when I grow up." Oh yes, you will. [00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. I love that story. And what a cool organization. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. Is that in more cities than just New York or, you know, is that like more of a-- because it should be a national thing. That's really cool. [00:15:35] Sharon Glassman: It should be. Well, and I traveled around the country, I, that was the book that I published. It was called "Love, Santa." I got a book deal with Warner Books, which is now I think Grand Central Publishing. And we turned it into kind of a holiday gift book with a how-to at the end. So you can have your own "Love, Santa" party. I traveled around to companies and you know, how folks in companies would be like, "Oh, it's Secret Santa time. Great. I'm going to get you a soap and you'll get me a lip balm. And we'll both be like, what else? "But this, instead I would come in and say, "Let's maybe not do that.  You can answer letters to kids and families together and buy food and clothing and beds." And so that was remarkable. And I traveled around the country with those letters from New York, but I believe that there must be, or were other programs like that throughout the country. It's just people are so good at heart, and this was a great way for everyone to come together and make a difference. And it was, it was a pretty great experience. [00:16:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so good. And I'm totally gonna read that book because I just, I was so inspired by that story and yeah, that, that is cool. I, I hope that it is something that I can participate too locally or start or something I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this is just fantastic." Well, yeah, I'm sure that you have, you know,  obviously such an amazing career and, and all of that. And where do you see yourself kind of going from here? Obviously you're building your business, which is fantastic and a huge time-taking endeavor, but are there other things that you're continuing to kind of dabble in on the side, or things like in the future you want to kind of pursue too? [00:17:11] Sharon Glassman: Well, I have a musical duo with the man I call my fiddle beau, which is a little bit of a pun, the  B E A U . I am a nerd. I'm a nerdy punster. And we're called the Jamison's Duo and we play jazz-inspired or jazz-influenced bluegrass. He comes from Kentucky, he comes from the bluegrass state. So we continue to do that. And that's fun on the side. Yeah. And right now I'm moving into wholesaling for my business. And so it's interesting because, because I'm writing music as well as designing products. I've learned how to record at home. And so I'm working on the next set of songs for the next set of designs for the next, you know, working on Christmas 2021 right now, and looking ahead to 2022. So I'm really in a learning phase as I expand from retail into wholesale. And that is really where my time and focus is now. But you know, there's always the creative pursuits of like baking stuff and cooking stuff, 'cause you got to eat while you do all this art stuff. [00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so true. And if you make it fun, you know, by being creative, then it's, it's a lot more enjoyable of a process and doesn't feel like a chore. [00:18:21]Sharon Glassman: Yeah, and I think that these things inspire each other too. I just, I just did a new greeting card that I'm really excited about and it says, "Season your life with love." And it has a bowl with hearts in it, and you know, the salt shaker putting love into your food, which then puts love into your life. And I think all these things are really tied together. It's that sensory, cross sensory concept again. [00:18:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. And so I'm curious --I'm sure that you've had so many moments during your career so far, during your life so far, that kind of stand out, but I'm, I'm wondering if there are specific ones that stand out in your memory either when you witnessed somebody experience your own art, or when you experienced somebody else's art, where it was just sort of this like moment that mattered. I need to file this away and remember. [00:19:10]Sharon Glassman: Wow. Such a great question. There are a couple, I have a couple of both, I guess. There was a moment-- there was a stage storyteller whose name was Spalding Gray, and he really defined the genre of standing up on a stage and telling a story, his were usually from his life, as opposed to reported usually, but he was just a master of that genre and seeing him definitely changed my life, both creatively and just inspired me. And I had a big art crush on him and actually got to almost meet him after a show. He performed at someone's home in Philadelphia, but introvert was too scared to talk to him, which then of course became a story about not talking about the person that you're talking to, the person that you want to talk to you.  Seeing him was life-changing. Hearing a lot of the music that I hear here in Colorado, we're very close to a town that I call the Nashville of Colorado and the musicians around here that we just get to hear and play with on a daily basis-- that's been a life-changing experience. Yeah. I mean, and seeing them like in the grocery store, I mean, you're like, "Oh, hello, music person." And now with pandemic zooming, we're able to see shows coming in from Nashville on a weekly basis. So we have our little Chinese food/ Nashville, bluegrass situation going on in our house on Friday nights, where we bring in Chinese food and then sit on the side of the table that faces the TV, down in the TV room, and dial up insanely talented, like world-class musicians and it's kind of like we have a front row to these concerts, so that's pretty exciting. [00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is super exciting. And it's so fun too, because you know, okay. So obviously the pandemic has been very challenging for many, many, many people. And there, there are a lot of difficult things as a result, but at the same time, to hear from artists who've kind of learned to adapt and pivot and, and now like the world opened up, you know, and we have these super cool opportunities to see a concert that we might not have been able to before, or would have been very challenging to try to get there or something. And so it's, you know, on one hand, it's maybe not the way that we would have wished that it came about, but it's pretty cool what we get to do and who we get to see and experience that maybe otherwise we wouldn't have. [00:21:49]Sharon Glassman: I do think the digital aspect of the arts right now was probably trending to this place but was definitely jump-started by the situation that we find ourselves in. I think more and more, and especially as an introvert, again, getting back to this, so things that other people find fun, for me personally, it can be just exhausting. I need to go to bed for a day afterwards, just because I've had all the feels, and all the feels like kind of exhausted all the energies. The digital world for me is a very comfortable place. And again, going back to the QR codes that make my card sing, finding that digital piece. And before that, I had done a podcast that I published on bottles of wine with a local winery here, again, using QR codes. [00:22:37] And so I had an entire cast of local people who are actors and non-actors performing this novel that I wrote with, which I wrote songs for ,and the way that we were able to deliver it was-- and I'll do a little parenthetical-- I think being in the same place at the same time increasingly is not a thing that's viable for lots of people at lots of situations. So where you used to try and get the largest live audience you could to see what you were doing, and that meant that you, it was working. I think now we're kind of pixelated and each of us has a desire to see something when we want to see it or here to experience it. And that may be where art is going is more of a one-on-one albeit digital connection. [00:23:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Well, and I think there's value to that too, because it makes it feel more personal and yeah, just a little bit more of an accessible, sort of intimate way of experiencing art, and that is special. Yeah. And you're right, because, you know-- so I'm a dancer and I have a professional dance company and we would define success on some level, just on a practical level, I would say-- but yeah, the number of tickets that we sold to our shows-- and it's interesting because, you know, on a more fundamental level, our whole goal is to bring joy and inspiration to people. And so that can happen in a lot of different ways, even more so now with us, you know, kind of pivoting even our own direction and filming and doing that kind of thing. And it doesn't, yeah, the  reach is, is different, but it, it's exciting. [00:24:20]Sharon Glassman: Well, I can't wait to watch you guys dance online. You have to send me a link. So this is really exciting to me because now I love watching dance and yeah, I would love to see that now. And I know you, and now I'm like super excited. Like I can't wait to see you. But this is, this is how this happens through a podcast, which is a digital medium. And if it didn't exist, we might not have connected. 'Cause I don't know the next time I'm going-- I've never been to Kansas City and I don't know that you've been to Longmont, Colorado-- but we're connected and now I can see your stuff and you can hear my stuff. And who knows, maybe there's a collaboration down the road that comes from that or some other things. So I think that is a really exciting 21st century arts creation and progress that has so many ramifications. I don't think we know them all yet, but we are exploring them, which is pretty cool. [00:25:07] Lindsey Dinneen: It is. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I'm so excited about yes, all of these artistic collisions. I'll put it, put it that way. And, the opportunities that can kind of come from a more open world, in a sense, and it's, it's exciting, good things are coming. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you and, you know, support and follow your work. Is there a way for them to do that? [00:25:34]Sharon Glassman: Absolutely. In terms of social media, I tend to be more of an Instagram person, and on Instagram I am smile underscore songs, but yeah, you can always get to me and find the Insta link and all that good stuff on my website, which is just smilesongs.com. And for your listeners, if they would like a little discount on cards and gifts that sing, you can sign up at smilesongs.com/vip, and then you'll get my news and find out what's going on and get the 20% off coupon and all that groovy stuff. So I think those are probably the two places and you can always reach me. There's a contact button there. So you can say hi, or ask me a question. I'm always excited to hear from people and find out maybe what they want. Like maybe there's a, a card or a message that they need in their life. And I'm always excited to hear about that. [00:26:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's super cool. Well, yeah. Thank you also for being so generous. I am so excited that you shared that with us and we can go and support your work. So thank you for that. I love it. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that. [00:26:55] Sharon Glassman: Oh, yes. [00:26:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:27:04] Sharon Glassman: Wowza! That's sounds like one of those great, like questions of all time, like, you know, what is the meaning of life kind of thing? How do you define art? Wow. I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion. [00:27:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Love it. Excellent. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:27:46]Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real. [00:28:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit. Is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration versus an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's exclusive in the sense that it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to see what they will. [00:28:43] Sharon Glassman: Wow. That's really interesting. Okay. I think both of those things. I'm going to go for both of, both of the, all of the above, because I can imagine-- I'm just picturing an art gallery. For some reason, I can picture walking in an art gallery and actually the exhibit being a series of paintings that have no title cards whatsoever, followed by a room where we see the same paintings with the title cards. And that experience would be super cool. Somebody do that and then let us know where it is so we can go. 'Cause that would be really cool. 'Cause you would be looking at the art and making up your own story and then you would be going into the other room and seeing either a curated version of that or the artist version of that. [00:29:27] But you know, so many paintings are called "Untitled." And I know that that gives us some information about like, you kind of go, "Oh, that's super cool. That person called their thing "Untitled." They're really pretty. Let me look at that. Well, it's a white, all white canvas called "Untitled." Dude, that's so deep." It's interesting. I think they're both interesting experiences, so I'm yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to stick with my, all of the above. [00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. Love it. Okay. Well, Sharon, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate it. And I loved hearing your stories, career, your, your life has been so interesting. And I just love hearing how all the different things have sort of intersected and collided a little bit into what you're doing right now, and how it's all kind of, you know, the writing, the singing, the storytelling, just all of those things are sort of woven into what you're doing now, and I just think that's really cool and special. So thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think it, I know it matters. I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I, I know that I just appreciate that you do that. So thank you. And thank you again for being here today. This has been so fun. [00:30:36] Sharon Glassman: Lindsey, it's been delightful chatting with you, and I cannot wait to see you dance. This is really exciting. New friends, new friends, new art, or like I'm excited. It's going to make my day happier. I love this idea of spreading the joy through art and conversation. [00:30:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yay. Yes, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

A dive into the song Feelings by Uriah Heep     New BMG Boxed Set – Every Day Rocks: https://uriahheep.lnk.to/EveryDayRocksPC     Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 13-3 Song: Feelings Air date: 7-5-2021   Performers: Lead & Backing Vocals, Piano, Percussion: John Sloman Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar, Backing Vocals: Trevor Boulder Stacatto Drums, Percussion: Chris Slade Obx, Vocoder Organ, Piano, Guitar, Backing Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: John Sloman album version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   I remember those magic nights Those nights when it all seemed right But I knew that by mornin' you'd be gone And though you tell me that it's not for long It ain't easy here holdin' on You gotta tell me where I stand   'Cause either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know it must come to an end   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   You'd better know that I've made up my mind I gotta high of a different kind And it's gonna take me where I wanna be Sure I'll miss ya but I gotta choose You can't believe that I came here to lose And you ain't a winner, that's easy to see   So I'll see you around or I'll write And I'll send you some love 'Cause where I wanna go There ain't nothing to do but move   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'     John Sloman single version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   I remember those magic nights Those nights when it all seemed right But I knew that by mornin' you'd be gone And though you tell me that it's not for long It ain't easy here holdin' on You gotta tell me where I stand   'Cause either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know it must come to an end   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', you're leavin'     John Lawton version   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'   When we meet Every night in the bar If I'm feelin' alright We'll get high in your car Then come morning And you will be gone You're my five-minute friend And you've gotta move on   And you don't stop me Thinkin' my feelings And I'm hidin' the hurtin' inside And I know how you Set my heart reelin' As I see it and swallow my pride   Well, either you don't give a damn Or you don't even care to pretend Or you won't spare a thought Though you know It must come to an end   And I've got those feelings Empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'   Feelings, empty feelings Prayin', hopin', needin' Just when I wanted to hold you You're leavin', you're leavin' Leavin', leavin'     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

David Smith is a full-time independent app developer. Since 2006, David has owned and operated a small company focusing on creating applications for the iPhone and Apple Watch.David has built many successful apps over the years. His most recent app, Widgetsmith, went viral and hit #1 on the App Store. It has over 50 million downloads. David's other successful apps include Watchsmith, Pedometer++, and Sleep++.David also co-hosts a weekly podcast called Under the Radar, where he and his co-host Mario Arment discuss Apple-related topics.In this episode, you'll learn: How to transition from a hobbyist to a full-time app developer Two big mistakes to avoid when starting out as an app developer How customers find new apps in 2021 The biggest waste of time and money for an app developer Links & Resources The LibriVox project Mirror app Launch Center Pro app David Smith's Links David's Website Audiobooks app Widgetsmith app Watchsmith app Pedometer++ app Sleep++ app Under the Radar podcast David's Twitter: @_DavidSmith iOS Version Stats Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.Episode TranscriptDavid Smith: 00:00:00I've launched, I think it's 56 or 57 apps at this point, and all but about six of them have completely failed. I say that mostly because I've launched more failures probably than anyone in the App Store in some ways, and that's the way that you can end up with success, I've just kept trying, and it got me that little baseline of income that it was like, okay, I'm not just wasting my time here.David: 00:00:19Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I'm your host, David Barnard, and with me as always Jacob Eiting. Hello Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:43Hi David Number one, How are you?David: 00:00:46I'm good. Our guest today, maybe number two, is David Smith, long time indie developer and podcaster. Starting with Audiobooks in 2009, David has built many successful apps over the years, including Widgetsmith. Pedometer. His most recent app, Widgetsmith went viral on TikTok, and hit number one in the App Store.Welcome David.David Smith: 00:01:10Thank you, It's great to be here.David: 00:01:11Yeah, it's great to chat. We've chatted in person a few times, and bumped into each other at WWDC over the years. You've been doing this pretty much since the very beginning, right? Audiobooks came out in 2009, when did you actually start working on that?David Smith: 00:01:27So, It wasn't even my first first app. I think my first app that never went anywhere, it was launched in 2008. So, I mean, I was within a couple of months of the App Store launching. So I've been doing it essentially as long as you could, and I think I started working on, oh yeah. Audiobooks, the end of 2008.And it's just kind of grown from there. So it's about 13 years in the App Store.David: 00:01:46Like me and Jacob, actually, we both had apps...Jacob: 00:01:50In the on days of paid up front, and only 200 apps on the App Store, and all that. It is a good time. Were you a developer, like a Mac developer before that? Or how did you trip into iOS?David Smith: 00:02:06Sure. I was a web developer before I did this, and so, I mean, honestly, I started writing apps before I even actually owned an iPhone. I just, it seemed like a good opportunity and I wasn't particularly happy where I was at work and it was just something that I thought would be interesting opportunity.And I started learning and didn't know what I was doing for a long time, but just kept at it. And so it's just one of those things I got into mostly because it seemed like a good opportunity at the time. And so, you know, I just, eventually I initially was doing some web consulting as well as my iOS work.And eventually they just, the web consulting disappeared and it became iOS full-time, and that's sort of been the story for more than a, you know, like 10 years now probably.Jacob: 00:02:47Yeah, no, I was, Kind of similar, like I just saw it coming and it was like, Hmm, maybe I should. And I went and picked up the Macco OS, the the Hillegass book and learned Mac OS programming, like, yeah, because there wasn't the iOS book, right. There was no iOS, it was iPhone iOS. But yeah, it was a different time, fewer apps way, smaller community.So, yeah. Interesting decade.David: 00:03:15I do want to start by digging into the story of Audiobooks, and, I think one of the, one of the interesting things to me, because it happened to me as well, is how having this kind of foundation app that, that started in 2009, that did well enough. And, and I'm, I kind of jumping ahead here a little bit, but I, I think if I know your story correctly, Audiobooks is kind of what helped you make the leap to be full-time indie. And then once you become full-time indie, you started to have the time to experiment with all these other apps, and a similar thing with me, like I've had a couple of key apps over the years that kind of provided that like foundation of income that let me keep going.And then, that allowed me to experiment with all these different apps, like launching a pro ended up coming out of, of already having income to be able to take this big bet. and then mirror came along where it was doing really well, and I was able to take other bets. And so it seems like that's somewhat the story of Audiobooks.So, so let's, let's dig into that. So it was 2008, you had had a failure and then you, you start working on Audiobooks in late 2008. what was the, what was the inspiration and, and, and, and how did how did you kick off that?David Smith: 00:04:31Audiobooks was an app that it's essentially, it's a, it's a wrapper and a player for a free public domain Audiobooks. that was all it was, and it was essentially just coming into the market because. at the time, I mean, there were there, wasn't an easy way to listen to any Audiobooks, on the iPhone at that point.And there wasn't an audible app there wasn't, apple didn't have anything and it was just, you could, I guess you could listen to Audiobooks, I think in the music app potentially, but it was...Jacob: 00:04:57Yeah, you can buy them on iTunes. Right. And they were like, 20 bucks a pop.David Smith: 00:05:02Yeah. And So that's where the idea for the the app came from, and it became, and it's just sort of, it, it just, it took off in a way that I wasn't really expecting and it was successful.And because it was an app that had a very broad appeal, it was something that I think, as you say, it's sort of like built a platform for me to. Then continue to experiment and try things. And, I mean that, that app has gone through originally, it was paid up front and then it went free with ads. And then I tried selling my own ads for awhile.I sort of went through lots of different models over it over the years, but, it was certainly the app that I think was my first thing that was commercially viable, where I don't think. On its income. Initially I would have been able to go into, but it was the kind of thing where it became a client for me when I was doing consulting work.And I would say like, you know, it would buy my time because it would start generating enough income. And at first it was like, maybe it would buy me 10 hours a week that I could work on my kind of like independent stuff and then make the event, it would do better. And, and now could buy 20 hours a week of my time and eventually it bought all of my time.And I think that model worked really well for me to have that initial success that I could then keep trying things. And I mean, I've. Launched. I think it's up to, I think it's 56 or 57 apps at this point. and all of it, about six of them have completely failed. Jacob: 00:06:18That's incredible.David Smith: 00:06:20And I say that mostly because it's like, it is so easy.It's like I've launched. So I've launched more failures probably than anyone in the App Store in some ways. And they're like, that's the way that you can end up with success though, is, is that it's just like, I've just kept trying. And I think Audiobooks was a useful one because it got me that a little baseline of income that it was like, okay, this is not just, I'm not just wasting my time here.But it allowed me to then just keep trying and lots of things that, you know, lots of ideas and lots, lots of things went different places. Some of them had their moment in the sun and then like failed off. Like there was a period in the App Store where you, the classic model is you had a paid up front app and you'd make, you know, a reasonable amount of money in the first two weeks.And then it would make almost no money ever again. And that was just the way it was. And like that's a model that. isn't very sustainable, but you know, it's like if you had something that had a bit more, you know, regular income as a baseline, you, you could make work.Jacob:00:07:13And that's how you incentivize a developer to make 60 some apps it's still like,David Smith: 00:07:17Exactly.Jacob:00:07:18And I just said it like a curiosity. Did the Audiobooks in Audiobooks, what was the source for those are those like prerecorded public domain or.David Smith: 00:07:27Yeah, exactly. So there's a thing called the LibriVox project where people volunteer to read, classic Audiobooks, such as, you know, essentially, you know, Dickens or Jane Austin or things like this that are out of, out of copyright. And so people volunteer to read them. And then, those are just available on the internet.And this, essentially my app was just a wrapper for that. It was just a way to, get into that. And the people who act, who run the liberal box project were actually very happy with it. Like they, they cause for them. There was no easy way to get their audio onto an iPhone. And so they were delighted that there, you know, this app is just creating a venue for their project to get a lot more visibility and interest.Jacob:00:08:06And he got an incredible like App Store parked name, just Audiobooks. That's a great one.David:00:08:12That's exactly what I was going to dive into. Like how did, did, did that, was that just kind of a happy accident or in 2008, did you already start to notice? Cause it took me like. Three or four years, I'm a little slow on the uptake to, to realize that these like naming a keyword instead of trying to create a brand was actually a fairly successful strategy for a lot of apps.So did you just stumble into that or was it somewhat intentional?David Smith: 00:08:37No. I mean, I think it was largely just a result of, I didn't have a name. I didn't have a better name and because the content of it was so generic, it wasn't like there was a natural branding that I was doing this and it's like, yeah, it's the related to the App Store. So you could just pick a proper noun and it would be available because there only a few hundred.Grow a few thousand apps in the App Store. And so I picked it, I tried it and it certainly has turned out well in that regard that it still has reasonably good, you know, search, search, search optimization and things. Cause if you want an audio book and you go into the App Store and search Audiobooks, it's an exact name match.So, you know, audible likely, still ranks higher because it's has more traffic, but, it's going to be in one of the top, couple of hits. and that's just a natural thing. And I wouldn't say it was intentional. Like this is part of some grand plan, but, it is certainly something that. I found useful. I mean, many of my other apps, like I have an app called pedometer plus plus, and sleep plus plus, which, the plus plus when the App Store is doing its algorithm for searching, typically just sort of drops off.And so they start, they rank very well for those terms for sleeper pedometer. and then, but I learned though that it's important to have something be somewhat trademarkable just for, legal reasons and copycats and those kinds of things. And so. Having something additional to it, was helpful that I could trademark those terms and go after people who are, are being, you know, sort of trying to, trying to get that benefit from the, any sort of success I've had on it.But I think in those tricks, they're always a bit tricky cause like they, they are useful at the time, but they're not really long lived and you can't rely on them. Like. It's something. If apple just tweaks their algorithm slightly, then it goes away. So it's not worth chasing necessarily, but it certainly in this case, worked out well for me and was useful, but know less and less of a factor now.Jacob:00:10:24If you, if you made Audiobooks today, it would be Audiobooks, degree sign, tiny cross, probably.David:00:10:31That's I was going to ask though about, you know, algorithm changes over the years and things like that. Did you, have you seen a, cause you took it free in like 2010 or something, right? Like pretty early you switched to the in-app purchase model. so like, what I saw with my mirror app was that once I switched it to, it was like mirror by app heavy or something.And that switched it to mirror with like a little, Unicode symbol that looks like a mirror. And so then it was the exact match for a mirror. And then it just really took off and it was, it it's been the number. And I ended up selling that app in 2017, but it's still the number one, one hit for mirror on the App Store.And, I got to, I think around 2015, there was kind of a peak of like five, 6,000 organic downloads every single day. And then even though, even though like the ASO didn't change, like it still ranked for all of these keywords and everything else, it did slowly kind of start to dip. And, and I kind of wonder if that was, if that somewhat follows the kind of people going to the App Store searching generic keywords, it was like the iPhone more and more people were buying them more and more people were coming like first time into the app.So you can either confirm or debunk my, thesis here that, that. There was kind of a wave and then a, a, a crest and a, a fall of the, of these, organic searches on the, on the App Store.David Smith: 00:12:06I couldn't speak with authority about it, but that seems consistent with my experience where I think they're in the early days of the App Store, there is definitely a higher sense of just curiosity that people would open the App Store and just be browsing and just not necessarily looking for anything in particular.'Cause they didn't know what their phone could do. They hadn't like that they have a phone and they knew it was going to be good for, you know, texting an email, but, oh, there's an App Store. Let's see what it does. And I think that phase is certainly behind us that I think people know what they know. They know what they're to know.They know what they want to use their phone for. And very often they're going for a particular thing, not just like browsing. And I th and I think if you were. and similarly, I imagine if you're just one looking for a generic term, you may not start in the App Store, even if that's where you gonna get the app, you may start in, in Google or YouTube or somewhere else.Yeah. Like you're, you're, you're, that's because there's a mature enough ecosystem there. That there's a better way. Find that even though the App Store is a great place, but it's, I think that's some, those kind of just generic, organic downloads are much harder to sort of define at this point. And I think that that's just the reality.David:00:13:15Similar kind of build and crest and fall as far as like. Since, since Audiobooks is so heavily rely on organic installs you don't. I mean, from my understanding, you don't do any paid advertising for it. did it kind of pressed around that 20 14, 20 15 and then, or have, have organic downloads been pretty stable?David Smith: 00:13:35Yeah. I mean, I think I know, I couldn't tell you a date. I don't know if it, I actually look at the numbers, but it certainly isn't that way that there is that I think there have been a couple of phases of the App Store and there was the early first, maybe four or five years. you had that much sort of just higher interest and it was easier to be, be seen.And I would say sort of in the last five years, the ACQUITY user acquisition. Reality of being in the App Store is very different. That it, it is, there's a lot more either like, or just organic, organic is more and more challenging. And, I D don't do very much paid, but I think if that would be the only way that I've actually wanted to affect change, to my downloads beyond kind of just word of mouth and natural, sort of, I think at this point, a lot of my downloads are coming from.Sort of the word of mouth version of organic, rather than the someone coming to the App Store with a need and then trying to find it. and so that's just, that's just a guess, but I think there certainly is those, there, there, the App Store has changed dramatically in 13 years. I think there's, there's certainly no doubt about it.Jacob:00:14:31User base too. I mean, I think about the way that, that what we were talking about as I was thinking about like my usage patterns pre and kind of post that era. And I think one thing that has changed is kind of, I kind of found all the apps I needed by 2015, you know, I kinda got, I got my podcast app, I got my, this app, I got my, that app.I don't really go in there just doing that, that way. You're talking about, the, the like, oh, what can I find for my phone anymore? Right. It's just not something I do. I still occasionally get a recommendation or I find something organically or whatever, but, you know, and yeah, like. In 2021. This is very few people's first smartphone, right?This is like somebody's fifth iPhone plus. And so it's just like, there's less curiosity, I think, but I guess that's exactly what we're arguing here. Okay.David:00:15:18So you mentioned you you've probably failed more than any developer ever on the App Store, which is really cool. I mean, I, in some ways feel the same way. I mean, I'm, I'm not nearly as prolific as you, but I mean, I've had gosh, like 26 apps and maybe four or five have been reasonably successful. But so I'm going to put you on the spot here.Are there any, any things that really stick out of like, you know, and I can think of one app, cause I'm still working in this space w your weather app, but are there any apps that you can point to and say, you know, I learned a very specific lesson from this, in those failures. Cause I think a lot of people who've only ever had one app and that one app was super successful.There's kind of a confirmation bias. Like I'm awesome. I did everything right. But it's like, they don't even know what they do. Don't know, they don't know what they did wrong. They just happened to like hit some level of product market fit. So any, any specific apps and lessons you learned from these failures?David Smith: 00:16:18Failure is obviously a complicated thing because I think I learned something from all of them. And so in some ways they were, they were useful. But I think from a financial perspective, it's mostly what I'm talking about when they're sort of a failure on that. And I think the two areas that the biggest mistakes that I've learned is one is under.To try to really understand and having an honest evaluation of the size of the market you're addressing. and some of the things that I've launched are very focused. were very niche and. That kind of a thing. It it is possible to make it work, but the economics are incredibly difficult and you're dealing with a very uphill battle.If you're dealing with something that, there is only ever going to be useful to 10,000 people then great. That for that 10,000 people it might be really cool, but it's very unlikely. You're going to make a sustainable living on an app at that unless your economics can be so high, that each one of those people is giving you a substantial amount of money on an ongoing basis.I think some of my failures were things where I was like, Ooh, this is really cool. And it's an app that does something, very specific and it doesn't really end up working out. I think the other thing that I found too is just having that sense of. that apps understanding what are the ongoing costs of related to an app going to be, and making sure that the economics of that can balance out.So, in your example of my weather app, ultimately like the app was successful. It had, a reasonably good user base, but at that, this was, it existed in a time before, subscriptions were a thing. Like they just did it didn't exist in the App Store. And so. The economics of trying to make it so that people could continuously, you know, pay for the weather data that I had to buy for.It just wasn't there. And at a certain point, it became, it's like a change from being a business to a charity because I was spending more money on the backend. than I was, you know, getting people on an ongoing basis. And that was something that I don't think I really it's easy when I'm building something to just ignore that because the costs, especially early on are so low when you look at these things and especially with, with, with most, if you're some kind of data service or some kind of hosting provider you often will have a free tier or something that like the E and if in some ways, success can be your own failing because you haven't taken into account that, oh, if this, you know, if I get any amount of volume, then suddenly I'm going to be spending thousands of dollars a month.Supporting this app. And if the economics aren't balanced for that, then it can, you have to essentially shut it down and deal with that. And I think those are two things for that. It's usually when an app has failed it's because either I didn't fully understand what the ongoing constantly going to be, or I didn't sort of real it.Wasn't realistic about how big of a market it is.Jacob:00:18:54Yeah, the unit economics are tricky because at the beginning, it's, it's hard to get good to data because everything's so small. It's like, oh, I can't really tell. I don't really know what my CAC is or what my cost to service cogs are. So you're just like, whatever. And then by the time it matters, it's too late.Right. And in some cases,David Smith: 00:19:12The two that you just used several terms that I have no idea what they mean. and I think this is another failing on my part that like, you know, Kat Mike hack and my Sasser service caught, like, I dunno, like it's it's, this is fun. That was just fine. I think. But that's...Jacob:00:19:24An educational moment. Cost of user acquisition. And what's the cogs cost of goods sold. Sorry. Yeah, those were like, those are the things I didn't learn until I had a SAS company though, to be honest. Right. Like it's, it's interesting. Like, yeah, the different. Which, which, which, I mean, just highlights kind of the world we're in now.Right. Which is where most app developers are running a SAS business. Right. would you, would you wear with the weather app, you just didn't kind of think about it in those terms. It was like an app with an API, but really it was a SAS business. and, and, that's why we're here@subclub.com to educate people.Actually, it's not.David Smith: 00:19:58Yeah, well, but I think there's definitely that teachable moment in that insofar as it's just it's that's another aspect of that failing is I think it's so easy coming at it from an engineering background that I can get too excited about the engineering aspects of what I'm doing that. I think that, oh, there's this cool, cool new API.There's this fun new feature. There's this cool problem I'm solving. And I can go down, you know, spend a month of my time building this app. And then in the end, I haven't. Really thought about the marketing side or the economic realities or all of those things. And in some ways it's like, that's fine because part of what I'm like, what I'm good at is the engineering.And if anything, I've been able to just engineer my way out of this problem by keeping I can just keep building. And eventually I've had enough things that just kind of naturally hit. and it isn't necessarily the most efficient way to do it or the way I'd recommend it. But I think that is an aspect of my failing, where it is.You know, and it's, it's also the reality of being an independent, independent developer where. Like, I don't have a staff. I don't have anyone else in that regard. And so it's not like I have a business, a business, a business team, or someone doing user acquisition or any of those things, which on the one hand is great because it means my costs are really low that, you know, my, my revenue is divided by one and I get to see, you know, and I keep it.So if I was a team of five people and I'm dividing my revenue by five, it's quite a hard thing to, you know, Have five times to five X the revenue. And so it's like a trade-off that you, in some ways it'd be great if I had both have both, but I'm not sure if it's actually reasonable or practical too.Jacob:00:21:29I mean, really though, that's, it's a good algorithm for finding a new, new API APIs are the apps or version of the market shifting, right. It's when something gets created, right? There's a new opportunity. So exploring those and understanding those and finding out how you can remix those with existing ideas that might, that, you know, as a, as a team of one where one is an engineer, that's kind of your strategic advantage, right?It's might not, might not be ASO. It might not be acquisition and all these other things. it might be like, Hey, what can I do? Cool stuff with computers. And I think historically that's been a pretty good, ROI for, for a lot of companies. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily call that a weakness. though it's both right, but yeah.David:00:22:12Yeah. And that, that specifically has been part of your strategy, right? So like you, you know, I mean, Widgetsmith, which we'll, we'll get to in a little bit, but even, watch plus plus, but domino plus plus, or Widgetmith's sorry. yeah. Tell us about your thinking around using these new API APIs to get attention.Doing something that's never been done before as marketing, which, which is, is, is a great way to do it.David Smith: 00:22:42Yeah, well, anything. So this is certainly something I've done time of day. And again, that like predominant or plus plus, which is, after Bridget Smith, the most successful thing I ever made was the first pedometer app in the App Store. And it was, you know, when the iPhone 5s launched apple introduced to put a step counting ship into it.And it was the first app that took care of it. And it's like for a few weeks, even it was the only one. And it was. Probably one of my strategic advantages is the fact that I'm just one guy who really likes to program and is pretty good at doing things quickly. And that means that I can be there on day one.And I think that's beneficial in sort of two main ways that being out there early is something that often gets Apple's attention and. It's ebbed and flowed in terms of whether that's important for apple featuring you or not, but it's never a bad thing for a, for apple to feature you or to get on their radar.And, you know, as an independent developer, that's one of the few things that I have that I can kind of pull on that apple gets excited about where on day one, here's this app that takes care of this new thing that they're trying to sell their new phone withJacob:00:23:44Yeah. And that speed, that speed. Even like a one person team compared to like a three or five person team. There's a real advantage. If it's just one person like no communication overhead, no, nothing. Like you can just do it all in your brain. And like, it's really hard to be. I mean, now I'm saying this is watching, I haven't watched our company grow so much.It's like, wow. The just like getting all these folks coordinated at the same time really is a different world than when it's. Just yourself, like trying to put things together quickly.David Smith: 00:24:09Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, that's just such a, the other aspect of this, just so much. It's so, so often I can do something faster than anyone else. Not necessarily because there's something magic about me, but it's just, I don't have it. There's no, it's not like it does that. Oh, there's a designer who will, you know, do a bunch of specs and then that's going into it.We'll have it, then we'll have a sprint planning meeting and we'll break up the features. And it's this whole thing that like, that's not my process. I just open up X code and start working. And so it's an, you know, maybe it means that, I, you know, it's like, and I ended up with as long as I have a good idea in my mind, I can just be driving towards it.I don't need to go through a lot of infrastructure to get that. Like, I don't have. You know, a roadmap with tasks, with, you know, sort of issues that I'm working through and burning down my, like, whatever, all those software things that you need to do, if you have a big team and are valuable, but I just don't exist for me.And so there's that extra multiplier. And I think being there early. Is just, it gets, it gets attention and it creates opportunity that there's a vacuum. It's, it's a short-lived thing. You know, the, if I, if I had launched Widgetsmith a few, a few weeks later, I don't think it would've mattered. It would have been complete.Like it is this very ephemeral, like thing. It wasn't, you know, once a year, there's this giant opportunity for me and I've done sort of dove in and taken advantage of it several times. And sometimes it's worked and sometimes it hasn't, you know, like my message App Store apps didn't go anywhere, but. That turned out that was a market that didn't exist, but I spent my summer making sure that I was there and if they hadn't, if they hadn't been really important and was super cool.Cool. And apple cared about it a lot, then I would have been there and yeah. Or know that ahead of time, unfortunately, but that's, I think just something that a small team can benefit dramatically from is like taking advantage of that and being okay with too of not shipping things that are as robust and complicated as fair enough.If I was. A five person team. It could do more or have more capabilities or, you know, be localized into more, more languages or also launch on Android or whatever those things that, that you would imagine would be beneficial. I don't have those, but like, it's just a trade offJacob:00:26:09Yeah. Search your marketing channel primary. Right? It makes a lot of sense. We did this at, when I was at elevate. This was a constant strategy for us was what does apple interested in? Even, even for us, we were a team of 10 or 20 at that stage, but like, yeah. Adding APIs. Oh yeah, sure. It kind of makes sense.Okay. Yeah, we can add that. Like it's not on our product roadmap, not really something, but like yeah, the, the benefits were tangible, but as you kinda mentioned, it has gotten at some point, I think for a team of that size, the benefits of being in the, like what's new, I forget what the, they used to always have a feature like what's new in iOS, whatever.And you would get Nat and it would be a pretty good feature, but that has gone down over time. So now it's like, It's exclusively the, to the benefit of really small developer teams, right. That they can take advantage of.David Smith: 00:26:53Yeah, well, and it's just, I think that the impact of being fee, because to your earlier point about, I think fewer people are searching for apps. so being in a featured list in the App Store is not as the, is not the thing that it used to be. That I remember the first time I got featured in the App Store and it was.I just rev. It was completely, mind-bending where I would go from like, yeah, you lasted a week. And I went from, you know, maybe having like in the tens of downloads a day to suddenly I'm having like tens of thousands of downloads a day and it was just like completely mind-bending, but that's not the reality anymore.Like that, that multiplier isn't there in, the same way. Like, it's It's lovely to be featured, but it also is very muted now because it's not for a week. It's kind of on this random algorithmically driven basis, where if you're the app of the day, you're actually the app of the day, only for one person necessarily.Like it's not like everyone in the world got it that day. Um it's and so those, those things lessen the impact of it. and Their benefit becomes more in aggregate rather than kind of in an acute way.David:00:27:52One of the things you mentioned kind of in passing there was, not having to wait on a designer and that's something I actually wanted to talk about. I, you know, as much as it's like the apple ethos to be pixel perfect, and to like, have these like amazing, you know, leather stitched icons back in the day or whatever.I regret spending as much as I did and kind of letting design in some ways, overly drive the process. because as an independent developer, where every penny I spend is, is money. That's not going into my pocket. I spent tens of thousands probably over well, over a hundred thousand dollars on design over the last 13 years.And from what I understand, you've spent very little, so, so I mean, it sounds like that's intentionally part of your strategies. Like you, don't one you were saying, you know, you're not a team of five, so you keep your expenses down, but two you're, you're also not waiting on them. So yeah, it was at, have you spent much on, on design over the years or have you done it all yourself and then has that been a very intentional for, for speed and cost?David Smith: 00:29:07Yeah. I mean, I think I've certainly tried spending money on design and it over the 13 years, like I it's, it's not that I've never done it, but it's, it, it, I, it was never, it never paid off for me enough that it would. For it to be something I continued doing. And I don't think I've done it in five, six years now.And at this point, the only design that I typically will ever pay for is, icon design. because that's just something that I can't do very well myself, but even like recently, like Widgetsmith, the icon I made myself, cause it's just a blue round direct, like I could handle that.Jacob:00:29:41That's a good icon.David Smith: 00:29:43Which has been it's fine.Jacob:00:29:44And it's number...David Smith: 00:29:45Think, yeah, like.Jacob:00:29:47Icon designer actually.David:00:29:48Yeah.David Smith: 00:29:49And I think, but it's to the point of like, I think eight. It's easy enough to like, if you try to learn basic design and get competent at the basics, you can go, that can take you a very long way. And I think really elegant, new fancy design that's doing really like groundbreaking or cool things with fancy animations and all that stuff.Like I love it. And we're using an app that does that, but that kind of design, like that takes a tremendous toll on your development process. And I think. A M like a, if you're a thoughtful to the developer who wants, is willing to put in the work to just kind of like study what the basics of design are, you know, you can get good enough that you can do a lot of it yourself.And I think that's something that has worked really well for me. and I think it's also been to my benefit that it isn't necessarily that I'm not waiting on a designer. It is that I'm able to, I'm a better developer because I understood, I took the time to. Study what makes a good design for an app.And so I'm w that informs my development, and then it allows me to build things that'll be easy that are structured, such that the design will naturally flow from it. And those types of differences that if I just was being hand handed a list of like, here's a, you know, a handful of mock-ups go and build it.And I don't really understand why things are structured the way they are. Then I would often find myself in kind of, I'd pay myself into technical corners that, if, if you, if you are responsible for both the design and the development, you're that the two are blending together really well. And so I think it's something that I certainly recommend.And I think like, I mean, some of the best apps I think have come out of the one developer, one designer teams, like I think that is a can, we can be a useful model, but. For me, it's just something that I think, you know, in the same way that often I've, you know, I've known many designers who learn just enough coding to be able to sort of, to make the basics of the key, to the same thing and go the other way that, a developer who puts in a little bit of time and is a student of what, like, if you're using something and you start paying attention to why is this good?And you don't try and overreach and. Like try and do things that are beyond your capability. Like, I can make a really nice clean UI. I can't make a, you know, something that is, is clever and fancy and that's it. That's fine. And I'll just, if I scale my scale, my applications to fit, what I can do, then I'm fine.Jacob:00:32:13Yeah, I, I'll share it. Not like we're revenue count. We didn't have a, it, I mean, we have a full-time, product designer now that helps with like dashboard work and stuff like that, but we didn't have, I was the only person doing design for the first two years and very similar, like I, I knew going into it.It was my weak spot. So I spent a few weeks, one summer just like taking. I took an online color theory class. And then I just like learned, did some like basic tutorials got really good at sketch and like made some mock-ups. And, you know, I had worked with a lot of great designers and kind of had knew what the process was like.But yeah, again, it's like, what's your advantage? And in your case, it's the API APIs and being first to market and all that stuff. And so you're not likely to get a lot of like, Yeah, leverage or whatever out of having really great design, you just needed to be functional. You needed it to be good enough something.That's not going to turn people off right. When they see the app on and that's, and that's kind of the bar and yeah, I agree with you. I think it's actually pretty easy to achieve, at, you know, with a, with a minimal investment.David Smith: 00:33:14Yeah. And I think you also, it's, I'm very, I very much like a model where the initial upfront costs are as low as possible. And if I need to double down on something and like, it becomes a situation where, oh, now I need design resources or I need something more graphically oriented or like things arise.Like. I'm delighted to spend money on an app. That's making money.Jacob:00:33:36Yeah, exactly.David Smith: 00:33:37it, rather than spending the money on something before it's even proven itselfJacob:00:33:41Yeah. We've spent a lot on design since like revenue cat's hit like our stride, but in the early days it was like, not like this API is like the design of the Jason is more important than the website.David Smith: 00:33:53Exactly.David:00:33:53Yeah, and it does force this kind of function over form approach. And I think that's where your apps have really succeeded. Is that there is it, you focus on them doing things well, Like serving a specific purpose and serving that specific purpose very effectively. And that's where I think a lot of the kind of form over function design either within apple.I think apple still makes this mistake a lot of, of focusing too much on, on how things are going to look and how things are gonna, come across versus like, well, how, how is it actually going to be used by people? And, I, you know, that's where I think I've fallen down a lot, as well as like spending so much time on these pretty graphics.And then, and then everything then like the user you can't like iterate quickly on a user interface based on feedback when it's all so polished and pixel perfect. Like it's so much harder to do iterative design. To enhance the usability of an app when, when there's so many barriers and then so much already kind of like set in stone because it was designed this way and you can't, step back out of that as easily.So, yeah, I think, I think it's great the way you've, you've done that.Jacob:00:35:12The one thing that resonated with me that you said David was, just how a designer, if they don't fully. And I love designers, all of my designer, friends are gonna hate me for talking bad about designers, but I think one, one universal experience of developers when you get handed something that. It's it looks great and like functional on paper, but like, there's just like, because there isn't like internal knowledge of UI kit.Right. And just like this thing that looks like, yeah, I know it's just pixels and it should be really simple, but like, it's actually going to add hours and days to my, to my, and, and you know, if you're not an assertive developer, that's going to be like, no, I'm just not going to do it. You can do that on your business.Right. But like, Because you own it, but, but if it, you know, if you work on a team or whatever, sometimes there's a lot of loss there where a developer will feel. And also like, I feel like it's a challenge, right? Like, oh yeah, I can do that. Right. And they ended up over investing in these ornate, user experiences or use user interface elements.It just like you talk about like ROI and whatever, like just not there, you know? so I think it's a very like prudent approach.David:00:36:22So I did want to touch on real quick and. I want to get to Widgetsmith and talk more about that. But, I wanted to touch on the, your iOS version stats. So, it's something I've really appreciated over the years. There's a flurry has, has published stats here and there that your site has been like my go-to place to say, you know, how's I was 14 adoption going, how are so you published publicly?The, the version stats of your Audiobooks app, which is a fairly broad market app. It's not perfectly representative probably of the entire market. but yeah. Tell me about why you publish that and then do you actually run a customer analytics to power that, or, or do you have a third party analytics provided that you just pull the stats in front from.David Smith: 00:37:09So, I mean, that came from, I think there were certainly, I mean, I'm running it for years and years, because in the early days of the App Store, there just wasn't good data on this kind of thing. And it was so I, I remember finding that it was just so frustrating. Right. I, I couldn't get. Basic sense of like the different device distributions and, iOS adoption rates and things.And so I just wrote something, myself to do this, and I sort of shared it because it was really helpful. I thought, I, I, I, if it's helpful for me, it's going to be helpful for someone else. and Audiobooks was the best app. I had to make the public version of this for, because it was my broadest kind of user base, that it wasn't as like pedometer is great, but it's.Dealing with people who are fitness oriented. And so like my, at some of my adoption numbers are like th there's a skew to it and it's a bit less mass market. but it's all built in custom. I I've used analytics packages and things before, but, in the, in, especially with apple being. I think it's a sort of like the privacy consciousness and things.It became something that I just didn't want to have. I want to have it the minimum amount of third party code in my apps as I could. And something like the, the kind of analytics I'm collecting is very easy to do as just a little, sort of custom thing that I wrote. That's just, you know, it's just a little website.That's collecting some very basic stats and being thoughtful about making sure that it doesn't log essentially anything except for very anonymized. aggregated things just so I don't collect any user level information whatsoever. It's all just being collected, at, at, at an aggregate level. And it's just something that I wrote and it's, it's a basic thing.And I think it's a useful tool because this is sort of to the same thing of a question about philosophy. It's like, you can't know when you can drop all the old devices or which device to optimize for. And this, you actually collect that data and you actually look at it. and so like right now, for example, send that, I re like I always try and optimize my apps for the iPhone 10 R because in all of my apps, it is by far that screen size.So the it's the F1 10 or the iPhone 11. those are by far the most popular phones in the world right now. And so like, that's my primary testing device. That's where I start, but I wouldn't know that if I wasn't collecting that kind of data and. You know, sort of, I wouldn't have guessed that necessarily.And especially because I live in the like apple tech ecosystem and I wouldn't, you know, in my mind, oh, it's probably just like the pro size, you know, like the, the, the 11 pro is probably the most popular phone because that's what all my friends have. But, that's actually not the case. That's, you know, that is a popular phone, but it's by no means the most popular.And so. Having that kind of data to back up my choices and making sure that, you know, like, I, I, I, if am doing a design, I'll optimize it for that and then adjust it for the other ones rather than going the other way around. Or if I'm doing screenshots for the App Store, I make sure that my screenshots.Are perfect for that one. And even if, sometimes I'll do you know, for the, my, the more minor phones, I might just say, like use the scale down the assets for something else, but that's a size that I've we'll for sure. Use. I think also it's speaks to, there is, I think there's still some of this, but maybe a bit less, but in the earlier days of the App Store, there was a, I felt like there was a group of.People who were kind of, we felt like we were in this together. And, like, especially among kind of indie small developers, we tend to try and like help each other out. And so like I made that public, it was an internal dashboard. And then I just like, well, let me just publish this to a different URL. because if you had to kind of just help out.And I think that was a nice thing that I think there's just, there are fewer Indies than there used to be. but it's certainly an aspect of the community that I think is still nice when there are, there are some aspects of it that still exists.Jacob:00:40:52It's also really nice to have. usually I would caution people to roll against rolling their own. Right. but I think there is this like somewhat unserved niche of some of these tools get really expensive, even like an amplitude or a Mixpanel or whatever. They're, they're more. There, the pricing often is more favorable towards a B2B and like smaller headcount kind of, or smaller like user based size apps.And you can lose this, this like kind of information. I, and I gathered not an App Store connector. It's probably crappy if it is. David Smith: 00:41:24Like some of it's in there, but not really in a way that like abstract connect sometimes has some of the stuff, but I like, I like just having it myself and there's also, it means that I can do additional beyond just, demographic collection. There are a few things that I will do in here where I can add in a hook and say, Oh, like, do, does anybody ever open this page of the app?And I can do a little basic, like those kinds of basic analytics things that you can't do on that, do an App Store connect. and so I can put, you know, put this into my system and do those kinds of basic collections, which a more sophisticated analytics packages, just like, that's just a basic feature of it.But, it's a, it gives you that kind of middle ground and it's, it's just, it's a tricky reality of, you know, apple once, you know, I have to put in my privacy things, all the, you know, all the things that I do. And so. I start using a third party thing. I have to be completely on board with everything they're using my data for.And so sometimes it's easier to just roll it. Have it be basic and simple. I mean, the actual, these apps are not complicated or I think the initial version of this was actually, I just based it on the error log of a, engine X server, where I just ran it and they would make, they would make the record.They would just. Yeah, they would just make the request and they would actually just all 4 0 4, like the trend analytics requests were just 4 0 4 and I would just parse the error log and add it to a SQL file. And it's like that, that was super straightforward and easy to build. And it's just a script and it's...Jacob:00:42:47Mixed panel, basically like in...David Smith: 00:42:49Like, You know, and like that's where I think mostly just to say is it doesn't have to be like super sophisticated and fancy.This is a backend utility tool. So you can very easily, like you could go crazy making it fancy, or you can just, you know, write a little scripts to process a log file and it'll get just as much data out of it.David:00:43:09Yeah, that's great. I did want to touch on, on witness Smith. You you've talked about it at length, so, There's a great episode with you and Marco. I think what came out like two weeks after we just hit number one. And so that's a really fun episode. People can kind of go get the history, but it's a cool kind of, culmination of this story of launching 56 different apps, trying all these different things.And then you, you go after these brand new features with the widgets in iOS 14 and. somebody picks the app up on Tik TOK. It goes viral. It hits number one in the App Store. It's just such a cool story as an indie developer to hit number one. And, and, and again, you've told a lot of that story. other places I don't want to just rehash the whole story.But there were a couple of things that I wanted to go over and I don't know if you've talked about it, since so one of the things that I think would be to follow up on is just how the, Durability has been. So like you hit number one, it stayed there for like, gosh, like weeks, right. Or almost a month.And then, yeah. So how has it, how has that gone since, and like, you're still like number five you're you're in the top 10 of productivity regularly. how has the app been durable? download wise and revenue wise, like how, how has it gone after hitting number one? Like.David Smith: 00:44:37I mean, I think it is, it certainly continues to be my most successful app. And I think it probably, it seems like it will be for, for, for quite some time. And obviously the first couple of weeks were insane and completely. Like mind bending and, you know, I think I exceeded my luck like to date App Store downloads.You know, of all my apps over the last 13 years were in a few hours of it when it kind of hit that crazy moment.Jacob:00:45:03We've seen a couple on revenue casts, a couple of viral events like that, and I am blown away every single time. It's it's more like it outpaces the App Store featuring like by 10 or a hundred X. It's insane. David Smith: 00:45:15And I think that, and let me say that it was really cool and fun and exciting and a little bit like scary and like terrifying. But I think it's, what's, I didn't know where it would have, where it would settle down to. And it's like, where is that? Come see the nature of. Something being a flavor of the moment is that like, that moment ends and it just vanishes like the, the driver behind that, you know, it's not like it's being featured in Tik TOK videos anymore, at least not in the same way.And so the durability, I believe now is largely just coming from the fact that that initial spike generates enough kind of ongoing word of mouth advertising, that the nature of. Especially the nature of what it does is it puts something cool on your home screen. And it has that natural. If someone sees your home screen or you show them something or you share a screenshot and it has the name of the app in it, and it's like, it, it has that natural, oh, I want to do that to witness to it.And that seems to be where the durability has come from because, I've. Tried sort of like the, the sort of like the paid marketing things to try and keep something going. And for me, it's a model that gets very, it's very hard to not just like, lose your shirt on it because you can.Jacob:00:46:22Yeah.David Smith: 00:46:22Spent a way out, spend what you're getting back or not have.Jacob:00:46:26Someone else's money to blow.David Smith: 00:46:27Yeah. And so like for me, it's just, it never makes sense. And so, like, I w I wonder if something's going to be something that I keep working on, it needs to be sustainable kind of on its own. And for it, it's still, you know, it still continues to do really well on a, on a, on a download basis. And it's also, it's, you know, it has, it's monetized both with advertising and with subscriptions.And so. You know, th the two together create a really nice, sustainable, revenue for me that it's based mostly on usage rather than, needing necessarily to have big spikes in downloads to keep it going. It's like as long as people keep using the app, that they're opening, it they'll see ads, or if they're, you know, power users who really want like the pro features of it and they'd pay for a subscription, if it's continuing to provide value to them that they'll continue subscribing.And so it's, that durability has been there. I think largely it certainly is easy to be durable when you have. This wild spike at the beginning to kind of kickstart that, effort. but it's, it seems like the there's enough ongoing utility of it, that it keeps people keep using it. And, that has a natural sort of knock on effect of people just telling their friends about it.And I mean, it's kind of a cool thing that, even after. You know, many millions of downloads, it continues to find new art, find it, find a new market and people will continue to sign up for the subscription. And it's, it's that's happening sort of on its own without me having to necessarily do anything other than just keep adding, you know, features and improvements to it.I don't need to worry necessarily on that side of things as much.David:00:47:56Yeah. One of the things that I was, initially taken aback by, but now see the, the maybe accidental brilliance of how permissive you were with the feature. So, and I mean, I made a mistake with launch center pro. I was actually trying to kind of ride your coattails with my app and. I was much more aggressive with the paywall.So I pay walled one of the like more prominent features instead of, instead of paywall and some of the lesser features. And then to your point earlier about like user acquisition, you know, part of how you make user acquisition work, is it, you forced, you can't pay $5 for a download. If you know, one out of 200 people are paying you.But we just Smith going viral. It went viral in part, because you were so permissive with the features. So like, how did you decide where to draw the line in the paywall? yeah. How did, how did you make those decisions?David Smith: 00:49:01Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of this comes from a place of my goal is to, I want a business that lets me keep developing, like what I love and what I enjoy is programming. That's that's, that's, I'm gifted in it. I enjoy it. I love it. And I will just keep doing it. Like if it wasn't my job, I'd probably still be making apps.But, and so I don't, I'm not chasing some kind of like wild exit or something dramatic. And so I think, I, I feel like I want to make things that people will like using, and that will won't be annoying or irritating. And, that I can feel proud of at the end of the day, like that. I'm not, you know, like the people who are paying for my subscription.Or paying it out of a genuine desire to support the app, to do the really advanced, like these are my super fans who really care about it. and there are the people who I'm sort of sort of going after for that. And so I don't didn't feel necessarily compelled to make the paywall up all in your face and be limiting features and kind of doing those types of things.And in this case, it worked out really well because it, it created a. it created its own marketing machine as a result. And like what I gave up potentially in having a less permissive market, pay paywall strategy I made up for in essentially free marketing for, because the app is used by so many more people.And I think that trade off is something that's easy. It's like I don't have, or I don't necessarily want to spend the capital. To acquire those people, but in some ways I'm spending that capital by just making my paywall more permissive and making it have a natural, more virality to it. and that, for me, I think works well for everybody that like more people are getting more out of the app and, I, I benefit from it.It's sort of coming along and I don't think it was, it's not like that this grant. Strategy that I had for it. It was just in general, if someone's going to pay me something I want for what they're paying to be something that is super clear is super straightforward and is compelling. That is something that I feel like I would pay for that.It isn't an arbitrary restriction or something that feels kind of. mean-spirited, that's sometimes a lot of paywalls can ha you can run into these limitations that feel completely contrived, that there isn't a reason for it. Like most of what I'm people paying me for in Widgetsmith are things like my weather data, the tie data, and some graphical assets, things that I have to pay for that there are, they are ongoing and tangible costs that I have to pay.So I can't make those free because then I go out of business because millions of people are requesting weather data. Like that doesn't work for me. And so, yeah. Making it paid feels good to me. And if anything, it works well, but I think that's definitely something that you can get. If you're too stingy with you, with what you offer, you're kind of like shooting yourself in the foot because you're ma you know, you want to make that first run experience feel so good that people want to keep coming back.And if you get too uptight, that the first thing, the first thing the app does when you open the app is ask for money. Like if I open that app, I'm just closing that up and deleting it. Like, I don't want to, I don't want that, that, thatJacob:00:52:05I mean, that's, that's...David Smith: 00:52:06Be them asking.Jacob:00:52:08That's an app that's for distribution basically is what you can tell. And if you're not then like, I mean, I think this is not a comment on an uncommon strategy, but, but, but, you know, optimizing for distribution early, Becoming not a monopoly because there's other apps like we just missed, but becoming a dominant player or like the best app, you get data, you get usage, you get word of mouth, you get a brand.And then in the future, if it becomes an operational requirement that you make more money per download or whatever, like, oh, you have a lot of levers there and you can go about it more thoughtfully than if you try to like, Try to shoot blindfolded, like from, from the start, there's just no way you can, you're going to be able to get, I talked to a lot of people getting ready to make their subscription apps and whatever.And they're like, ah, they're going back and forth. I go, what should I put on my paywall? What should I, whatever. I'm just like, just don't think about it too much. Just don't do something stupid. Like just see something reasonable and normal and don't try to be too clever. And then, you know, be prepared to iterate and change like over time.Cause inevitably, well...David Smith: 00:53:06That's good advice. David:00:53:07This is such a fascinating time. I wish we could talk another hour just on, on, on paywall strategies and, and freemium. I think a lot of developers do make the mistake in the subscription space of because they're spending so much on user acquisition, they have to be more aggressive with the paywall, but then in the long run, you're, you're, you're paying for users that you immediately ostracize.You know, if you're, if you're only getting, you know, 10% to start your free trial, and then only 50% of those convert. It's like, you're paying for all these people who ultimately have a bad experience in your house. And so it works cause that's their model, but, but they're leaving a lot on the table long run by not having a more, permissive freemium strategy where you can get people in using the app, finding value and then over time bringing them along.And it seems like that's part of what Smith has done well with, like, you didn't start with ads. Ads came later, right. And then. The paying for assets, I think came later as well. so like exactly to Jacob's point it's like you just got out there with a great product, you know, found that product market fit.It went viral. I mean, you know, it probably wouldn't be the success it is today without that, but, but then you've kind of layered on some additional moneymaking over time. And so that's great. but anyhow, we're, we're at the top of the hour and need to, to wrap up, in the show notes, we'll have links to your, Twitter underscore Smith, underscore David Smith, Jacob:00:54:35Oh, my God. I never realized that pun Widgetsmith, Dave. Oh my God. I'm so slow.David Smith: 00:54:43Yeah.Jacob:00:54:44The brand is just so it's perfect, but we're on your lap. It's so great.David Smith: 00:54:49That was a, as soon as it was one of those names where once I, once the name came to me, it's like, yep. That's theJacob:00:54:53Oh, it's even, it's a good name on its own. Right.David Smith: 00:54:55Yeah.Jacob:00:54:56I just love when things are like tidy and tied up like that. It's so perfect. Sorry.David:00:55:02Anyways, anything else? anything else you wanted to share or, anything else you want to mention as we wrap up?David Smith: 00:55:08Yeah, no, I mean, I think we covered some good things and I think it is, I, I always like sharing my story as an independent developer, because I feel like in this industry, they're like, there's a, there's an aspect of it. I know this is something, you know, I've listened to this podcast before. Like there there's a, there is an industry in a branch of this.That is very data oriented. And if you're built almost like you're building a machine to try it, like a business machine to try and like spin off money. And it's all about how you're getting your conversion rate value to this, and then you can put it into this and the eights. There's a very like, and I respect that and understand that, that, that is a very viable business.But I think what I, I was like sort of to share the other side of the story where it's also possible to just make cool things and have them have just have enough, enough of a business in them that it makes a good living for you, but you don't need all of that infrastructure and all of that other things.And I think to our point, we've made many times is if you have something that you take the approach of simplicity and straightforwardness, and Craftsmanship early, you can shift and pivot and change as you go. And if you start to numbers driven and you start to like kind of cold in that way, I think you can lose just as many opportunities, as, as, as you could.And I personally, I enjoy this way. I think this is fine. I, you know, I'm very excited about WWDC next week, because it's the, the time that I get to just discover what I'm going to launch this year. Kind of thing. And so I'm very excited to become about that. I think that excitement is something that I wouldn't have if I was building something that I didn't enjoy doing in quite the same way.David:00:56:52Well, thanks, David so much for your time.Jacob:00:56:56Good luck next week. 

Brannon Braga wants you to know that this episode was written before and aired before Groundhog Day! The Enterprise crew find themselves stuck in a time loop and must slowly unravel a solution so they can meet Space Frasier and Not-Saavik.We review TNG 5x18 'Cause and Effect' to give you our Strange New Takes! Get bonus content on Patreon See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This one sucks, but we laugh a lot.

A dive into the song Love Or Nothing by Uriah Heep   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 12-8 Song: Love Or Nothing Air date: 6-21-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: John Lawton Electric and Acoustic Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar: Trevor Boulder Drums, Syn-Drums, back-up Vocals: Lee Kerslake Keyboards, Synthesizer, Slide and Acoustic Guitar, Back-up Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: You gotta make up your mind 'Cause you're running out of time You know it's your game And the winner takes all It's time for you to realise There's gonna be no compromise It's gotta be love or nothing at all   It's gotta be love or nothing It's gotta be love or nothing at all   I've thought about a new beginning But you know your heart's not in it There's something inside That ain't hearing my call And each new misty morning Brings a constant warning It's gotta be love or nothing at all   It's gotta be love It's gotta be love or nothing You give me your love Or nothing at all You give me your love   It's no good climbing In the back seat In the name of love Or tryin' to be somebody That you know you're not Sneakin' out the back door At the dead of night 'Cause you're never gonna find out What it's really like   It's gotta be love or nothing at all It's gotta be love It's gotta be love or nothing It's gotta be love or nothing at all It's gotta be love or nothing     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

How does piss and cum come out da same hole?!?!? Relly makes u think. Lyrics I'm just trying to be a father Raise a daughter and a son Be a lover to their mother Everything to everyone Up and at 'em bright and early I'm all business in my suit Yeah, I'm dressed up for success From my head down to my boots I don't do it for the money There's bills that I can't pay I don't do it for the glory I just do it anyway Providing for our future's my responsibility Yeah, I'm real good under pressure Being all that I can be And I can't call in sick on Mondays When the weekends been too strong I just work straight through the holidays And sometimes all night long You can bet that I stand ready When the wolf growls at the door Hey, I'm solid, hey I'm steady Hey I'm true down to the core And I will always do my duty No matter what the price I've counted up the cost I know the sacrifice Oh, and I don't want to die for you But if dyin's asked of me I'll bear that cross with honor 'Cause freedom don't come free I'm an American soldier, an American Beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand When liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right I'm out here on the front lines sleep in peace tonight American soldier, I'm an American soldier yeah, an American soldier, an American Beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand When liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right I'm out here on the front lines so sleep in peace tonight American soldier, I'm an American an American an American soldier Patrons Scout Doherty Twitter - Twitter.com/wormzoneinc Youtube - www.youtube.com/channel/UCL5YXcfqqBXy9gTJth4C4Lw Patreon - www.patreon.com/wormzone Discord - discord.gg/qGtcqdEGs5 The American Soldiers Nathan - twitter.com/Nihpyang Garrett - twitter.com/thebunglinghost

Vice President Kamala Harris has been widely criticized for her performance telling the people of Central America how to solve the “root causes” of their nations' problems. Maybe we're missing something. True, there's no evidence the Veep actually understands the conditions in Guatemala, El Salvador or Mexico – let alone that she's addressing them effectively. But, in fairness, it is indisputable that Kamala Harris and her running mate, Joe Biden, are in fact doing a lot to address the root cause of illegal immigration -- in our country. Specifically, they are making America much less attractive to people who yearn for freedom and opportunity by trying to turn the U.S. into just another oppressive political system and economic basket-case. Unfortunately, taking down America probably won't keep people from coming here. But it sure will ruin America for those privileged to call her home. This is Frank Gaffney.

A dive into the song Woman Of The Night & Street Lady by Uriah Heep   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 12-1 Song: Woman Of The Night Air date: 6-8-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: John Lawton Electric and Acoustic Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar: Trevor Boulder Drums, Syn-Drums, back-up Vocals: Lee Kerslake Keyboards, Synthesizer, Slide and Acoustic Guitar, Back-up Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: Ride along lady woman of the night Looking for a place to go Dancing on storm clouds Hiding from the light Looking for an easy Joe   You just wanna play around Searching for a higher ground   Walking every side street Kicking up the leaves Running from the pouring rain Standing on the corners Shaking from the cold Only got yourself to blame   You just wanna play around Searching for a higher ground   Someone who could Make you happy Someone who would care You've broken your life Beyond repair You're reaching for every rainbow You're wondering why Don't reach out for love 'Cause it's a lie   You've got your number on the wall Of some deserted station hall Is this your only claim to fame Will you just play your waiting game But you won't stop the things you do Some night the evil get to you   Someone who could Make you happy Someone who would care You've broken your life Beyond repair You're reaching for every rainbow You're wondering why Don't reach out for love 'Cause it's a lie   Someone who could Make you happy Someone who would care You've broken your life Beyond repair You're reaching for every rainbow You're wondering why Don't reach out for love 'Cause it's a lie     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

Having helped to bring big data to genomics through the lab techniques he invented, such as RNA-Seq, the Stanford molecular biologist Michael Snyder is focused today on how to use data from devices to increase the human healthspan. Some cars have as many as 400 sensors, Snyder notes. "And you can't imagine driving your car around without a dashboard...Yet here we are as people, which are more important than cars, and we're all running around without any sensors on us, except for internal ones." To Snyder, smart watches and other wearable devices should become those sensors, feeding information to our smartphones, which can then be "the health dashboard for humans and just let us know how our health is doing."  (You can sign up to participate in the Snyder lab's study of wearables and COVID-19 at https://innovations.stanford.edu/wearables.)Snyder has been chair of Stanford's Department of Genetics since 2009 and is director of the Stanford Center for Genomics and Personalized Medicine. He has a BA in chemistry and biology from the University of Rochester (1977) and a PhD from Caltech (1982), where he studied with the molecular biologist Norman Davidson. He did a postdoc at Stanford from 1982 to 1986 and then went to teach at Yale in the Department of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology from 1986 to 2009, when he moved back to Stanford. At Yale, Snyder and his lab helped to develop many of the tools undergirding functional genomics, including RNA-Seq, one of the two pillars of transcriptomics (alongside microarrays). Snyder is also known in the world of personalized medicine for having discovered through genomic analysis of his own blood that he was at high risk for Type 2 diabetes, which he later did develop, but controlled through exercise and diet. That work to create an “integrated personal omics profile” (iPOP) was later described in a 2012 Cell article. Eric Topol of the Scripps Research Institute called it “a landmark for personalized medicine” and an “unprecedented look at one person's biology, showing what can be accomplished in the future.”Snyder is the author of a 2016 book from Oxford University Press called Personalized Medicine: What Everyone Needs to Know. And he has founded or co-founded numerous life sciences companies, including:Personalis (precision oncology through liquid biopsies of tumors)SensOmics (genomics + machine learning to screen for childhood conditions such as autism)Qbio (membership-based access to “BioVault” platform gathering numerous biomarkers to predict health risks and recommend healthy habits)January Therapeutics (albumin-encapsulated nanoparticles to deliver drug molecules to tumors)Filtricine (cancer management through “Tality,” a line of foods that cuts off amino acids needed for tumor growth)Mirvie (formerly Akna – blood tests to predict pregnancy risks such as preeclampsia, preterm birth, gestational diabetes)Protometrix (maker of protein microarrays, acquired by Thermo Fisher)Affomix (maker of technology for high-throughput screening of antibodies against human proteins; acquired by Illumina)Please rate and review MoneyBall Medicine on Apple Podcasts! 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You can tap them to leave a rating if you haven't already.• In the Title field, type a summary for your review.• In the Review field, type your review.• When you're finished, click Send.• That's it, you're done. Thanks!Full TranscriptHarry Glorikian: I'm Harry Glorikian, and this is MoneyBall Medicine, the interview podcast where we meet researchers, entrepreneurs, and physicians who are using the power of data to improve patient health and make healthcare delivery more efficient. You can think of each episode as a new chapter in the never-ending audio version of my 2017 book, “MoneyBall Medicine: Thriving in the New Data-Driven Healthcare Market.” If you like the show, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review at Apple Podcasts.Harry Glorikian: Michael Snyder says his life is all about using big data to understand things.He's a molecular biologist, genomics expert, and life sciences entrepreneur based at Stanford University. It's partly thanks to Snyder's work that genomics is a field defined today by big data. In an earlier phase of his career, when he was at Yale, he and his lab members invented some of the fundamental technologies behind functional genomics, that is, the study of gene transcription and regulation, and also transcriptomics, which focuses on the RNA transcripts genes produce.At Stanford he's focused on using big data to transform the healthcare industry, so that it focuses less on reacting to illness and more on proactively lengthening people's healthy lifespans.Snyder is like me in that he's convinced that smartwatches and other wearable devices are going to be an important source of health data. If everyone had one, we could probably detect health problems a lot earlier and make better lifestyle decisions. In fact, about halfway through the interview you'll hear Snyder explain how his own wearable devices have gotten him out of some personal health scrapes. In the middle of one flight to Norway, Snyder says his heart rate went up and his blood oxygen went down. Before his flight even landed, he'd correctly diagnosed himself with Lyme disease and was able to get an antibiotic that quickly cleared out the infection.Later, during the height of the covid pandemic in the U.S., Snyder's lab proved that about three-quarters of the time, they could predict which FitBit users would develop covid symptoms based solely on heart rate data from their devices.The medical establishment hasn't always been receptive to this kind of science. And the era of data-driven collaboration between patients and their doctors has been a long time coming. But thanks to better technology and the impact of the pandemic, Snyder thinks it's finally arriving now.Harry Glorikian: Dr. Snyder, welcome to the show. Michael Snyder: Thanks for having me. Harry Glorikian: It was funny cause I was reading your background and I was like, wow. I mean, so many different aspects of your background, both, you know, from a scientist and an entrepreneur from, you know, helping start, like, I was going through the list of the companies. It was longer than, than I remember. Like, I know quite a few of them, but not all of them. And so I just thought like from a high level, like, how do you explain to someone what you do and why you do it? Michael Snyder: Okay. Well, we're all about big data. We like to use big data to understand things. And these days we want to use big data to transform health. And really that's what my career has kind of been built around. So over the years, we've invented technologies for collecting big data and then we've implemented them. For a long time, when I started out, it was really to try and understand biological systems. People use to study genes one at a time, for example, and proteins, one at a time, we came up with a way of studying them all at once. And that hadn't been done before. And then try and understand them in a systems context so that you weren't really just looking at, you know, if you have a jigsaw puzzle, look at one or a few pieces of the time, we wanted to see the whole puzzle at once as best we could. And so that's really been the philosophy. As I say, it was first choosing to study basic cell biological problems. And then I moved to Stanford now about 12 years ago. And the goal there really was to bring it to medicine see if we can understand medicine, you know, at a holistic level, not just, you know, if you've got high sugar that, you know, you're diabetic. Sure. But are there other things going on as well? Like other metabolic conditions? And that's really the philosophy. Let's look at the whole system, better understand what's going on, and see if we can come up with solutions. Now, the thing, I think that's been a big shtick of ours and at least in the recent years has been focused on keeping people healthy, extending the healthspan as opposed to just doing sick care, which is where medicine is today. So we really want to transform medicine. Harry Glorikian: Yeah. It seems that, you know, health span has become the, the big shift.  And if you look at where we're going from the Affordable Care Act and everything, it's better to, it's more profitable actually to keep someone healthy than just treat them when they're sick. So I like that shift because it brings technology more into the forefront. Michael Snyder: Totally. Yeah, no. And it's going to require a lot of changes and a lot of levels, the whole payment level in the United States is broken. People often only get paid when sick people go in to see them like hospitals, you only get paid to show up when you're ill. We don't put enough emphasis on keeping people healthy because people have said, well, you know, show me it saves money, show me it does it. But until you run those studies, it's hard to do that. So I think the incentive systems are changing. That's slow, but it's also getting  you know, physicians and others used to this concept of bringing in big data to better understand people's health. And maybe to elaborate a little more on this. You know, if you walk into a doctor's office today, it looks pretty similar to the doctor's office of 40 years ago, you know, a few gadgets are updated, but otherwise the same. And guess what the number one user fax machines is in the U.S.? It's the healthcare system. My daughters don't even know what a fax machine is.Harry Glorikian: Yes, yes. It's true. Somebody did ask me the other day, like, can you fax it to me? I'm like, yeah. I think my scanner might, but I don't think I've got a jack that I can actually plug it into to actually send it. ‘Cause I don't do that anymore. Michael Snyder: Nobody does that except for the medical system pretty much. Yeah.Harry Glorikian: So, you know, you've had you, you mentioned it, you had a hand in, in, you know, developing these foundational ideas and technologies in functional genomics, such as, you know, high throughput protein sequencing techniques, you know, known as RNA-seq and then making transcriptomics possible. Like, can you talk about what it's been like to sort of, you know, develop those technologies and then, you know, be at the forefront of trying to answer these big molecular biology questions and, and what in your mind, what came first? Was it, I gotta answer this molecular biology question so I'm actually, I'm going to develop this instrument and then be able to answer that question. Does that make sense?Michael Snyder: Yeah, it's a little of both to be honest. Often we develop technologies out of need or out of observations. We have, so for example, in RNA-seq, we were trying to map where all the transcribed regions were, where all the genes were in yeast, which was the organism we were studying at the time. And we tried this one now very outdated method that just work miserably and we just stepped back a minute, said there's gotta be a better way. And so that's how we came up with, we thought about it, came up with a way and then implemented it and, and showed it worked. And then of course if it works, it takes off quickly, very much like CRISPR. And that's been true for other things. In some cases as we'll make an observation like when we first  invented a way to map the targets of key regulatory proteins called transcription factors there, we saw that these things were, were giving these dots in what's called the nucleus of the cell. And we said, well, where are those dots located? And so we came up with a method for figuring out where are all the, where all the binding sites for our, for these key regulatory proteins. So it's, it's been a variety of ways. And then when it's come to medicine, we, once we invent the technology, so well, people will say, well, well, how can we use these now in other ways that would be beneficial. And I'm not sure what you know, but I was at Yale for a long time, and I had a great time, it was fantastic place, but I was more on the main campus and it was just harder to implement them into medicine. And then about 12 years ago, I moved to Stanford and I'm right in the heart of the medical school where there's all these clinicians and very eager, beavers around, trying to figure out how to better, you know, do medicine these days. And so it's just been easier as we've implemented technologies to roll them out and see how they might work in the clinic. And so I think one of the biggest projects we launched when it came to Stanford was we call it personal 'omics profiling. The idea, you collect a lot of deep data around a person and you do it longitudinally. So we'll, we'll sequence their genome we'll look at all the molecules we can in their blood and urine, meaning their RNA and their proteins and their metabolites. We, we do deep questionnaires and clinical tests on people. And then, and then, yeah, about eight years ago, we sort of got into wearables back when they were just fitness trackers, realizing they would be powerful. So the idea was to collect data on people—while they're healthy, by the way, not while they were sick, while they were healthy—and do it longitudinally, do it every three months and see how they change. And if they got ill, then we collected more sample. And that was the idea. That's turned out to be a really flagship project, I think, for just how we might better implement health. And you raise the issue about starting companies. So a little of my philosophy is I think academics are great at discovery. They're great at proof of principle, but they're not good at scaling. They think they are, but they're not. And this is what companies are just fantastic about. So we've spun off, we think some, what I hope will be powerful companies. One was a DNA sequencing company called Personalis. They've done very, very well.Then we've spun off Qbio, which is doing sort of a, you know, a more commercial version of this personal 'omics profiling, as I mentioned, but they added on whole-body MRI and have some other things that are pretty powerful. So they've, they've got a medical version of, a more actionable version, again, our academic lab is doing this research for us and trying to figure this out, but the company can do it, implement it.And then we have another company, January AI, it's doing continuous glucose monitoring for trying to better control diabetes. So again, we figured out some things in the lab and then it made sense to commercialize it. So, so it all goes kind of hand in hand to me. It all makes sense. And it's very satisfying by the way to do stuff in the lab that, that we think is impactful and then try and get it out there to a broader group. We think that's how you scale. I don't think academics are capable of scaling. Certainly not very well, whereas companies are. Harry Glorikian: Well, yeah, I mean, I, you know, quite some time ago being a product manager, I mean, you, you, you had to like your biggest accomplishment was getting that thing from the bench right out into somebody in the field and, oh my God, it actually, yeah, it did something. Right. And that was the exciting part. Stopping at the research, I would have been like, “That's it? Like, all I got was all I got was a paper out of it?” Like, no, no. I want to, you know, I know that that's always the beginning. Michael Snyder: Yeah, we got excited about the papers, absolutely. But we're very also, it's just fun to see it get out further. Totally. And again, so that's literally all the companies, maybe with one exception have spun off of the things we were doing in the lab said, all right, we get it. Now it's time to scale this out and develop it into something people would be interested in. And it is very satisfying, as you say.Harry Glorikian: So, so, you know, I mean the genome has come down in cost. I mean, a lot of other analytic technologies have come down in cost. I mean, I know the latest thing that Illumina has said is they want to get the genome down to like $60 to do the functional work. Not necessarily the analytics or analyzing part of it. How do you see that changing what you're doing and the impact? I mean, you've got a lot of data, so I feel like you can almost. paint a picture of the evolution of a person.  If you could sort of see the initial traces, how do you see this playing a role in what you're doing and the impact that it's going to have on where it's going next?Michael Snyder: Yeah. I think getting the cost down is a big deal because when we set this up as research, it was very, very expensive. And so  getting it out there will help, especially when you're talking about keeping people healthy because people don't want to dump a lot of money into a healthy person. 'Cause they don't know that—here's a problem with our healthcare system. Most people will shift every 18 months, that's the average time people stay with their provider and then they'll shift to a new one. And that may be because their company's shifted. Not necessarily they did, but their company may have done it. And sometimes they change their job, they shift. So  that's whyIt's a barrier then for, for providers, healthcare providers put a lot of money into you, when 18 months later you're going to be with somebody else. But if the costs are pretty cheap, like the genome sequences, let's say, but the interpretation is $200. It's worth it to you because then it's a lot easier to execute preventative medicine, get your genome sequenced, predict what you're at risk for, and with a fairly low cost. But if they're going to dump $2,000 and you're going to be with somebody else, there's a lot more balking, if you know what I mean.So I think, I think keeping the costs down is a big deal. Qbio, for their exam, they charge $3,500, and on one hand that's a lot of money and we, we like people to do it two months. You get a whole-body MRI and other things. On the other hand, we would argue for it. It should save and already has. We found like early prostate cancer, early ovarian cancer, early   pancreatic cancer, which is a big deal and some heart things and stuff like this is from the first a hundred people that we did. And it's more now. So, so we show it has utility. And of course, if you're one of those people, it's a big, big deal. So, and, but by getting the cost down, it just gets the whole barrier away. Right now you have to pay out of pocket because there is no reimbursement. So the cost gets down and I think people would reimburse because there'll be willing to run trials to show it does work and saves money. So I, I think the whole thing will go together as costs drop, and we can expand this out and show utility. Harry Glorikian: Well, and you know, if you think about the implementation of technology, like if you could carry it around on your iPhone, when you go to your next physician, and you've got it with you right at that also brings the cost down rather than have to do everything all over again.Michael Snyder: Totally. Yeah. In the future. And I think physicians are just warming up those. There's an education side of this from the physicians, you know. When we first got involved in the wearable space, they would tell us how inaccurate it was. And they didn't like the idea that your iPhone would be so powerful. Possibly more powerful than they are. There was a threatening aspect of the whole thing. And I think they're now reassured that, first of all, they're very important. They're not going away. There's these technologies to augment what they're already doing. And, and it's, there's an education side. I remember when genome sequencing first came out, even at an enlightened place like Stanford, I would talk to some of my colleagues and they'd say, well, nobody shows that really worked, you know, and it's got a lot of errors. They just think about the negative. The instant reaction is, you know  we don't really know how to do it. You might tell people something they're not going to get. That's harmful and, and try to tell them, well, look, you have just educate people and educate the physicians. And now, when we first started actually, you know, cancer, even people were pushing back  and cancer is a no brainer. You need genetic tests or sequencing. But for elderly people, it was a strong pushback, right? Everybody's telling you, Mike, what you're doing is really harmful to people. You're going to get people to turn them into hypochondriacs when you sequence their DNA. And now there's some, some people feel that way, but most people have kind of warmed up or at least maybe it's 50-50 are receptive to the idea. Maybe it is a good idea to get a, to find these risks. From our standpoint, just from the first 70 people we sequenced the genome, we found someone's BRCA mutation. And now that person out of mutation suggests they might have certain kinds of cancer. They did a whole-body MRI that early thyroid cancer, we caught that had it removed, saved their thyroid, the rest of their thyroid. That is, you know, very, very useful. Another person, a very young person had a mutation in a heart gene and would have been at risk for cardiomyopathy. It turns out his father died young of a heart attack. And so he had this mutation, we saw this thing and sure enough, he had a heart defect. Didn't even know it. He's on drugs now. So, so these technologies can be very, very useful, very, very powerful. But you have to show physicians that, and then they sort of go, “Oh yeah. Now I get it. We kind of get it.” They may say, well, show us the evidence. And so that's what we're trying to do. Harry Glorikian: Yeah. I mean, I just. I've got a book coming out in the fall and I just interviewed somebody who had done participated in BabySeq. Robert Greene's thing, right? And identified an issue  that had a profound effect actually on the decisions of the mother, not the baby.  And so it's an interesting story when she went through it, I was like, wow, that is super impactful. You know, it adds a lot of, you know, it is funny. She said, you know, we did this and I was not expecting this. Right. So it was an eye opener, but it's affected her decision-making going forward.  And it's along the lines of BRCA, what she was informed of, but  I'm sort of saving it for the book. So when it comes out in the fall. Harry Glorikian: But you know, you wrote a book back in 2016, that introduces non-experts to personalized medicine. You know, you covered everything from how DNA works to the applications in genomics, in cancer. So. I almost think like that might need a refresh or at least the publisher might want to put it out again, because I think people are more interested now. But if you were writing that book from scratch today, you know, five years later  would you write it at all? Would you, the field is, I feel like it's exploded in the last five years on the one hand. On the other hand, I still feel like I talk to people that still don't understand the impact of it. So I feel like I'm talking to both sides sometimes, but. How do you think the field has changed in the last five years? And where do you see it going next? Michael Snyder: Yeah. Great question. So when we wrote the book, you know, people really didn't like this area. They didn't like it, sequencing genomes and things. They thought it was harmful.  And the same idea where, I mean, we literally collect millions of data points. Every time we sample someone, then people still bring it up. And so it was really, the goal there was to educate people about what the technologies are, what they're capable of, and this sort of thing. So I think we have come a long ways since then, where the field was mostly against. I asked people to raise their hand. How many of you want to get their genome sequenced? Usually there's a small fraction, even in an educated group. Now it's probably the majority. If they haven't even done it already—they may have already done it. So  I think the world has changed. I think what I would do is update the power of the new technologies. New technologies have come out, even since we first put that book out.So I'd add more. Expand the wearable space. I just think we can put a smartwatch on every person on the planet. If we wanted to a very inexpensive one that would be a health monitor for people. And, and there would be a no better time for that than this pandemic that's going on now, because we actually can show, we can tell when people are getting ill prior tosymptoms from a smartwatch, from covid and other infections. So we can talk about that more if you like, but it's a pretty cool study. We can show again, 70% of the time, we can tell when you're getting ill, because your heart rate jumped up, and we pick it up with a smartwatch. So imagine putting that on everyone in the planet and just letting them know, “Look, we can tell when you're getting ill.” You know, even if it's not perfect, a bunch of the time that we think would be very useful. They don't send their kids who are sick to school, affecting everyone, or it shows up in a nursing home and, you know, you flag it right away. And that would be, we think very, very powerful.I view it as analogous to, you know, a car. A car usually has several sensors. Some have as many as 400 sensors on them. And you can't imagine driving your car around without a dashboard, the gas gauge or, you know, a speedometer or an engine light or all these things on we've gotten so used to this is what you do when you drive a car.Yet here we are as people, which are more important than cars, and we're all running around without any sensors on us, except for internal ones. They're okay. But they're kind of slow. And I just, to me, it's just totally logical. We should all have our own, you know, sensors on us. It's the car health dashboard. Our smartphone will be the health dashboard for humans and just let us know how our health is doing. And it doesn't mean when you see a light go off that for sure something is wrong, but it gives you a heads up. And it has, you know, in, in some cases our profiling has really had life-saving consequences.Harry Glorikian: Yeah. And I'm, well, I mean, it's funny cause I think about these things and I look at a lot of these technologies and. You know, it's always a single biomarker of some sort, right? That that's, you know, a heartbeat or temperature or something. And then I think about, well, the next level has got to be a combination of them, which makes the predictive power that much better. Michael Snyder: That's right. Yeah. We call that multivariate, yeah, where you bring in several features. So you start seeing it enlarge something or a thing on an image, and then you see that those biomarkers of those. That's how we discovered someone with an early lymphoma in our study that had an enlarged spleen, and then we saw certain markers are up in their blood and said, something's not right here. And then they did follow up and sure enough had early lymphoma, no symptoms yet. So again, caught it early, a lot easier to manage just much better off. We have a number of examples like that. So the combination tells you. And the other thing that's very under appreciated is the longitudinal profiling.  People don't realize that if you go in and get tested now, and they rarely look at your old measurements. And so they just see if you're in the normal range and you can be at the high end of the normal range, but you're still “No, all right, you're fine. Don't worry about it.” But if you look at your trajectory, you know, maybe you've been running kind of normally in the low normal range and suddenly this one jumped up, you know 50%. You can still be in the normal range, up 50% and something's headed in the wrong direction and you would be ignored for that. Whereas if we just had very simple algorithms that can flag that sort of stuff. “Look, you're not only up in this marker, but you're up in that one too, which is related, you know, maybe something's going on early.” Let's see what's going on there a little better and catch things earlier again when you can manage it better. So, so I think we ought to bring in longitudinal information again, to me, that's why the wearables are so powerful because they measure it 24/7. Harry Glorikian: Well, I do that with my, my physician. I walk in, I'm like, okay, here's my data for the last, you know, X amount of time. And it's funny because even I've noticed, like during covid, cause I was much more sedentary, like certain things were going in the wrong direction. And I was like, oh no, no, no, no. I got to get those, those back in line. If I didn't have the ability to look at it over time. And I was only looking at that one point, you know, how am I going to see where it's going? Michael Snyder: Out of context. Yeah. Here's another thing that's wrong with medicine today. It's all population-based, so they will make every decision about your health based on population averages and hence that normal range. But again, you may not at all be like normal population levels. And so you've been told, and here's my favorite example, you've been told since day zero that your oral temperature, when you put it thermometer in your mouth is 98.6, but it turns out, first of all, that number is wrong. Yeah. Average temperature is 97.5. But more importantly, there's a spread. So the what's called the 25th quartile is 94.6. So four degrees below and the 75th quartile, 99.1.So in today's world, if your normal baseline temperature is 94.6, that's your healthy temperature, and you walk into a physician's office at 98.6, they'll tell you, “You're healthy. Everything's great. What are you doing? Go home.” But you're at four degrees Fahrenheit over your baseline. I guarantee you're ill.  This is just, it's not healthy. So you got to know your baseline. And for me, by the way, mine is 97.3 and it's been dropping a little bit over the last 10 years. Which is, there's some studies suggesting that is the case actually, so that people do drop a little bit as they get older. But the point is that, you know, my baseline is not 98.6, if I am at 98.6, I am ill. [music interlude]Harry Glorikian:I want to pause the conversation with Michael Snyder for a minute to make a quick request. If you're a fan of MoneyBall Medicine, you know that we've made more than 60 episodes of the show. And you can listen to all of them for free at Apple Podcasts, or at my website glorikian.com, or wherever you get your podcasts.There's one small thing you could do in return, and that's to leave a rating and a review of the show on Apple Podcasts. It's one of the best ways to make sure that other listeners will find and follow the show.If you've never posted a review or a rating, it's easy. All you have to do is open the Apple Podcasts app on your smartphone, search for MoneyBall Medicine, and scroll down to the Ratings & Reviews section. Tap the stars to rate the show, and then tap the link that says Write a Review to leave your comments. It'll only take a minute, but it'll be a huge boost for the show.Thank you! And now back to the interview.[music interlude]Harry Glorikian: You know, just talking about the wearables, because I noticed like earlier you had at least four devices and I think an Oura ring, or maybe… Michael Snyder: I lost it recently, but yes, I normally wear, I normally wear eight of these devices. An Oura ring and four smart watches. I have a continuous glucose monitor and environmental sensors. I've got all kinds of gadgets. Harry Glorikian: Oh Jesus. Okay. Well, so tell us where you see the overlap of these digital devices and the personalized medicine sort of coming together, because I feel like one is much earlier warning system or could be an earlier warning system of what may come in the future. And one is a current monitoring system, of how the machine is working. Michael Snyder: Yeah. I mean, I do think they're an integral part of personalized medicine.   Only now I think people are realizing the power. The pandemic, I hate to say it, helped with that because remote monitoring is now become popular and the concept that you can start managing people.So, a little background, we started on this about eight years ago, when the Fitbit was out there. And people are using these fitness trackers. We thought, well, gosh, these are pretty powerful health monitors because they're measuring your heart rate and they measured 24/7. In fact  you know, the first device we used doesn't exist anymore, a Base watch, it takes 250,000 measurements a day. Now some of them will take 2.5 million measurements. They really follow you in a deep way and they'll measure heart rate, variability, skin temperature. Those can all be pretty accurate, by the way. It depends on the device. Some will measure blood oxygen and even blood pressure. Those are less accurate, but their deltas are pretty good, meaning the changes. And then there's other things out there too, something called galvanic stress response. So they can measure all kinds of things. They're always following you. So we think that's super powerful. Now when we first started, again, physicians pushed back and said, well, you know, everybody knows they're not accurate and we actually want paper coming out. Very soon [they started] saying, well, actually they're more accurate for some measurements, like heart rate than what you measure in a physician's office. My heartbeat can vary by as much as 40 beats per minute, depending whether I drove their biked there. Even if I rest at 15 minutes, it's still different and whatever's going on in my life.And, but if I pull my resting heart rate off in the morning, first thing it's pretty constant, unless I'm either stressed or ill. So you actually have better measurements from some, for certain kinds of measurements from these devices. So that's the first thing you have to show, show them they are accurate and things. So we think we've done that in some cases for some kinds of things. So I think we now just need to get physicians to start thinking about that more and get them as an integral part of your healthcare. That when they show up, they don't have to take your heart rate anymore. They'll just read it from, it'll already be pumped into the system. You can already have it there, and they can follow your trajectory. Since the last time they saw it last, whatever month, six months, two years, what have you, and see what's going on much, much better than these static measurements that they take every few years when you're healthy.So I just think they're going to be super powerful for following your healthy physiology. And then when you get ill, it's all about the delta, the shift from your personal baseline. And what's powerful is because we all have different baselines, different heart rate, different blood oxygen, just what have you. When you shift up, you can figure it out. And the way we got in the most was from our first work, we actually showed a, I actually figured out my Lyme disease. I picked it up from my smartwatch. I suddenly got a pulse-ox, a blood oxygen. And it was because my, my heart rate went up. I was flying to Norway, of all things, and my heart rate went up much harder than normal. And my blood oxygen dropped much lower than normal. And I saw it on the airplane and it didn't return to normal after I landed. And I knew something wasn't right. I thought it was Lyme disease, because two weeks earlier, I was in a Lyme-infested area helping my brother put a fence in in Massachusetts. Most places are Lyme-infested in Massachusetts.And then I saw this and I, I warned a doctor there. It might be, that's a classic case, I warned him, it might be Lyme because of the timing. And later got, by the way, I didn't have symptoms. That was a key. I saw these things before symptoms. I later had symptoms, went to a doctor in Norway. He pulled blood said, yep. My immune cells are up. I've got a bacterial infection. And he wanted me to take penicillin. I said, no, I should take doxycycline. The classic case of, you know, you have to take charge of your own health. He pushed back, but he did give in, in the end  And, and it turns out it cleared it up. I took it for two weeks and when I got back, I got measured. Sure enough, I was Lyme positive, by a sero test and I give him blood right before I left I was negative, so I seroconverted, a very well controlled experiment. The point of all of this aside is, I can figure out my Lyme disease from a simple smartwatch and a pulse-ox. And so that showed the power of these smartwatches for doing this sort of thing. And then that's how we got, we looked into the data and saw every time I got ill from respiratory viral infection, including asymptomatic time, I could see the jump up in heart rate. So we knew it would work for infectious disease. And then when the covid pandemic came, as you might imagine, we just ramped up or really scaled out that study.We are device agnostic. So we rolled out the study in a two part manner. So meaning we first wanted to show that our algorithms and perfect algorithms for detecting covid-19. So we partnered with Fitbit  but also talk to other groups as well, pulled in data. We started with Fitbit, we could, right away, we got 32 people who had been covid-infected  with their Fitbit watch still running. Some people let them burn out.  But we, we, and we had a diagnosis date and a symptom date. And so we could actually show, we initially showed that for 26 of 32, we could see a jump up in resting heart rate from a simple smartwatch, in this case a Fitbit. And we had several different algorithms, both steps and a resting heart rate. We, we showed the algorithms work and then we built what we call it a real time alerting algorithm, actually two of them, we tested them out and they seem to work. So then in December—and we love all of you listening to this to enroll in our study at innovations.stanford.edu/wearables—anyway, what we did in December is showed, we rolled out a real time alerting system that will actually send off a red alert when your heart rate jumps up. It works about  73% of the time. We have 60 people have gotten ill, a little over 60, and we can see those red alert will go out before at the time of symptoms in 73% of cases. And we even now caught two asymptomatic cases where their heart rate went up. They had no symptoms but they happened to get tested and they were positive. So we can show that this thing really does work.  And so now we're trying as the say we are building an infrastructure to roll this out for millions and millions of people.Harry Glorikian: That's good because I was just thinking it would be great if these things would proactively ping you and tell you there's a problem rather than you have to look at them all the time and see where you are compared to baseline.Michael Snyder: Yeah. The one minus is you have to open your app and sync it, and we're trying to do exactly what you just said, set it up so you don't even have to open the app. You probably have to leave it open, but we want to be able to ping you. We have to get IRB approval. That's our review board approval, but we want to do exactly what you just said. So right now you just have to check it out every day. You open your app and you'll see, oh, do I have an alert or not, when you wake up. Do it first thing in the morning. And if you have an alert. We're not allowed to give a medical recommendation but we could say, look, you have a jump up a resting heart rate and I'll let you figure out how to interpret it. But ultimately the plan would be to say, you know, Gosh, maybe you don't want to go to that party tonight or go to work and maybe you want to go get tested for that. Something could be up. That's ultimately where we want to get to with this alerting system. So, and I don't think it will be too far away where we're showing it, where it's going to pull in more kinds of data. So we can get that 73% up to 95%. That's our goal. Harry Glorikian: Yeah, it's interesting. Cause I was talking to just the other night to a friend of mine who's a primary care physician and she was saying, “Well, you know, these things are not very accurate and you know, people are going to come in for problems.” I'm like, okay, hold on. They're, they're actually pretty accurate. They take a lot of data over a long period of time. So, you know, those blips, I can sort of, you know, wipe them out if it's a truly a blip and I can see a lot of information. And it's more accurate than me coming in that one time you'll see me. But the other thing I said to her was, you know, you realize like this is just going to get better. Like the more and more data we have, the better and better these things get. And at some point it is going to be like the standard of how things are done. And it's, I think it's difficult for people to understand that more data, better algorithms. You know, better equipment, all of them coming together. You just end up at a place where you're going to, this is going to be the standard.Michael Snyder: A hundred percent agree. A good case is, imagine if we told people you can't own a thermometer. They're medical devices, nobody should have a thermometer. That means that, you know, nobody would be taking their kid's temperature. By the way, a thermometer is a terrible way to tell if you're getting ill. It's an okay way, I should say. Your resting heart rate is way better. When you show that, that it's kind of funny. A thermometer is a 300-year-old technology, very ingrained in our medical system, and it has some value. Don't get me wrong. But it's not as good as any of these other technologies. We can pull off a smartwatch like resting heart rate and other signals and soon respiration rate, all that stuff you can pull off and you'll have a much better signal for when you're getting ill than a simple, stick a thermometer in your mouth.And it's going to go way beyond infectious disease. One thing we can show, we can get a signal for something called a hematocrit and hemoglobin from a smartwatch, and we can, and that actually can be an early sign that following those levels can give you a clue as to whether you're getting anemia.We have another signal coming from a smartwatch about diabetes, something called insulin resistance with diabetes. So we can get, they're not clinically diagnostic tests. So that, and they're just, they're kind of hints if you know what I mean, but very valuable hints. We think, oh, you see this and you see this change, maybe you should go to a physician and follow up on this. And there's some measurements from a wearable that there isn't even a clinical correlate for. There's something called galvanic stress response, which is conductance on your skin that you know, there is no medical, typical medical correlate for that yet that's a valuable measure. If you're stressed, you will sweat more. If your diabetic you'll have drier skin, it'll give you a signal towards diabetes.So these measurements we think are going to be very, very powerful. No one measurement, it comes back to what you were saying earlier. Multiple measurements together will help give you a better idea of what's going on and clues that something may be up that alert you while you're still in this, you know, fairly healthy state, we hope and can then take the right course, the right intervention course Harry Glorikian: You almost wish there was a spider graph that had your normal, and then show deviation from normal on these multivariates. So you could evaluate it over time. I mean, I find myself having to go, I have to go to that one and I have to go to that one. Then I have to go to that one and it would be a whole lot easier if it was in one format or one graph that could show me where things are. Let  me ask you a question…   Michael Snyder: By the way I think those integrated systems will happen. Yeah. And your car dashboard is a good example, right? There's aren't usually single or single sensors that are triggering. Sometimes they're integrating multiple sensors to set up a signal and that'll be true for your health. And just the way the data is organized again, in our antiquated healthcare system, it comes back because to these individual measurements, whereas instead, you want this as well here, here's your cardiovascular panel, you know, with the five measurements all together and these other panels around systems to tie and even some broader panels besides that, so that you can see things in this more holistic fashion. And another analogy might be, you know, when a pathologist reads images, they write up a report which they give to your physician. Hour physician can't read a pathology image slide to see if you have cancer not, but they can read the report that pathologists get. And so I think that's how we need to integrate these data. To put it in a usable fashion. To be honest, it's not just for the physician, but for the consumer, because they're the ones who can act on it most quickly. They're the ones who are going to have the most time to think about the information. Again, another flaw, and it's, it's no negativity to the physician, but they only have 15 minutes to spend with you. At least in the U S you know, you get a half hour appointment, the physician's only there 15 minutes, they glance at your chart. They do a few things. They make a quick assessment and they're off to the next patient. Then they have to write it up manually. Ironically.  And then  you know, you have a lot more time to spend thinking about what's going on. So if you have this information accessible to you, something doesn't look right. I think it's a better chance for you to take control. It's like me and my Lyme disease, you know, if I wasn't watching what was going on, I don't know what would have happened. It was very valuable for me to have that information. Harry Glorikian: No, no. I mean, I, you know, it's funny because I was, you know, we're using these machines all the time and  you know I try to be as deep in the space as I can be. But if there was an algorithm or a series of algorithms, looking at different data streams that are coming off of me and can sort of be like  my friend, right? Whether it's weight or heartbeat or blood ox or something else that could sort of highlight it for me and then put it into a format that is easy for me to digest. Either graphically or, or a few words. I mean, it would be a lot easier for me to manage myself. Michael Snyder: Yeah, it's coming. I think it will hit, but you're right. I mean, again, medicine's conservative. If you do belong to, you know, Fitbit, or there are certain programs. Or Apple. They'll ping you, you know, here was your weight this week, you get these, but we're just at the trivial stage of what can come. Obviously I think what you're saying, where you would integrate different data types and then see these, and again, in this paper we'll have coming  out soon weshow that you can actually follow people's trajectories and set up AI systems, artificial intelligence systems, follow people's trajectories to look for these deviations. It's still very, very at the early phases. I think they're going to be super powerful for managing chronic diseases like diabetes, obesity. There's something called chronic fatigue syndrome that a lot of folks have, and they have crash days and good days. And to be able to tell all these things are associated with your crash days, watch out for those trying to avoid those. These are your good days, do more of those. It's very, very true in the glucose monitoring space, diabetes. People don't realize it's the next endemic, if you don't realize that. 9% of the us population is diabetic 33% are pre-diabetic. And 70% of those are going to become diabetic. By 2050, they estimate half the population can be diabetic if we keep going the way we're going. So  we need new intervention plans while people are healthy. Don't wait until they're already diabetic and have problems.And this is where the continuous glucose monitoring technology I think is going to be really powerful. Figure out what spikes you. It's very personalized. What spikes you is very different from what spikes me. Right. And be able to see that. I don't know if you've ever worn one, but they're just very, very powerful. And so it's, again, one reason why we formed a company called January AI to help help with that. Harry Glorikian: Well, it's funny because my wife was asking me, she goes, you know, I'm wanting, I'm thinking I want to wear one of these so that I can see what I eat, sort of how it affects me, but it's all by physician prescription. Go and convince your physician, you know, Hey, by the way, I need a script for this. Michael Snyder: Yeah. So  two comments there. One is in Europe there is no prescription, you can get over the counter. So there's less regulation. So they're ahead of us on that. I think it'll happen in the U.S. Right now you do need a physician, but there are studies, there are groups rolling out. So again, I mention ours, but there are others as well. But with January AI, their case. They'd take it even further and you get this continuous glucose monitor for, for 28 days and do the program longer. But you can, it not only shows you what spikes you, but they also train you a little bit, meaning you eat, you know, your favorite food or it could be rice, what have you. Rice, by the way spikes almost everybody. And then the next day you did the same thing. You do it for breakfast, you do the same thing and take a 15 minute walk and it shows how it suppresses your spike. So it's a, it's a behavior intervention program as well. So it teaches you. And we think that's kind of powerful as well. You not only want to get the data in and have people learn from it. And this thing does food recommendations as well.  You want to be able to teach people how to live better, healthier lives as well, doing an intervention, as they say, Harry Glorikian: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, some seeing it so that the data convinces me and then understanding what I need to do to fix it is also very useful. Right. So. Do you think we're ever going to get to? You know, I know that we have data-driven healthcare. Everybody always likes to say we are data-driven, but I mean, truly, like I don't make decisions on businesses without really understanding their profit and loss where their costs are, what their spent. I mean, very detailed analysis. Do you think that we're going to get to this point of [going] beyond hunch-driven medical decision-making? What was that show, oh my God, where the doctor would sort of put all these pieces together and then come out, with a famous actor, I forgot the name of it, but—House yes, yes. House. That was it. I mean, do you think are going to get to more data-driven. I feel like we should be there already in some way. Michael Snyder: Yeah. So, you know, I'm very Pollyannaish. I believe the answer is going to be yes.  I'm like you, I feel like we should be a lot further along and I just think that's the conservative nature of medicine. People think, you know, do no harm. And so they do nothing. And I would argue that doing nothing is harmful.  So I do think we need to get these, the, you know, this data integrated better. I think the best way is to roll out studies like the ones we're doing and others that can show it has power has impact. And that's how you convince people.I'd love to come up with a way to accelerate it. I think programs like this are a really great way to do it. A lot of this stuff is going to be consumer driven. I mean, people are now wearing smartwatches not just for fitness tracking, but for health devices, which is itself now the new concept.So it's coming. And luckily they're fairly inexpensive. I think that's the way it'll happen at, you know, when a lot of new technologies roll out, they are pretty expensive and then only the wealthy can have access to it. But the hope is that as the wealthy uses these and shows it has utility, then the price drops and they get out to everyone. Certainly that's how genome sequencing started. And I think it will be true for a lot of these other technologies. Luckily, smartwatches are pretty cheap to begin with. So even a hundred-dollar smartwatch is a pretty powerful health device, I would argue. Harry Glorikian: Yeah. I mean, you know, if, if Illumina achieves its $60, right, for the function—I've been looking at an analytics approach that will bring down whole genome sequencing to $60. So if it's $60 to do the actual work, the wet chemistry, and then $60 to do the analysis, I don't think there's many barriers in the way anymore. Michael Snyder: Yeah,totally, and we're not so far away where people will they'll get their genome sequenced, but now there are technologies to look for early cancer by sequencing DNA in blood, and you knowHarry Glorikian: Liquid biopsy.Michael Snyder: So GRAIL and Gaurdant are leaders there. My company, Personalis is, I think, doing all right. So anyway, that's a, those are areas that we think are going to be powerful and soon they'll become routine tasks, once you show utility. But no company pays for it right now until you show that gee, you do this on healthy people and it doesn't cost the company $5 billion to find three cases, which I won't  yeah, that then it'll roll out.So right now, and the way this works too, for the liquid biopsies, it's looking for, they use it for cancer recurrence, if you've had cancer, you try and see if it'll appear again. And that's very logical. They'll demonstrate utility there. They already are. And then soon it'll be early detection and that'll go to the high-risk families. And it always comes down to who pays and insurers won't pay unless you're at high risk generally. And then soon if it's cheap enough, comes back to your point, if it's cheap enough. It'll be there for everybody. Harry Glorikian: Yeah. I have this vision that you're going to go into your CVS or your Walgreens and you, you know, once a year or whatever, and we're going to see things so early that, I'm hoping one day in my lifetime that people will be like “Cancer. What, what, what, what happened?” Like you were able to get so far ahead of it, that it stops becoming an issue. Michael Snyder: “What do you mean you detected cancer only when you saw this giant lump what's that all about?” Harry Glorikian: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Michael Snyder: Yeah. I'm a hundred percent with you. Yeah. Harry Glorikian: So let's say we start, I mean, implementing this at a much larger scale, and broader than what we have now, because I think you and I are probably way ahead of a lot of others on these things. But do you see that effecting a longer life, or do you see it—like, I'm trying to weigh healthspan and lifespan, right?Michael Snyder: Well, it's all about healthspan, yeah. It's all about healthspan. You want to extend the healthy life.  You don't want people hanging on in miserable fashion for years. I think anyway, that's, that's my own view and I think it'll definitely extend healthspan because you'll catch things while people are healthy, not once they're ill, and then you take corrective action and keep them healthy. I think it'll totally extend the healthspan. And the goal is to do that. You know, you want have people that have held a healthy life and then just die. That's how it should go. Harry Glorikian: That's yes. My, my grandmother used to say that when I was younger and I thought it was morbid. And then now as I've gotten older, I'm like, Nope, Nope. That's, that's a good way to go. Like if you're just going to go go, Michael Snyder: Yeah, I think so too. We all know cases where people say, well, at least they died quickly. And we all know cases where somebody is hung on for three years and a lot of pain and very miserable fashion. And I don't, again, at least my own personal view is that that's just certainly not what I want. And those probably should be personal decisions, but minimally, regardless, everything we've been talking about should extend the healthspan, catch things while people are healthy, see these trajectories heading in a bad direction and then take corrective action. And that will have the desired impact. Harry Glorikian: So, one, one final question, before we go. Who do you think  is going to drive that? Is it going to be the healthcare life sciences world, or is it going to be the technology world? That's quickly encroaching. Cause it's, it's not Pfizer that's making this device on my wrist, right? It's, you know, all the other companies you can name. Michael Snyder: Yeah, no, I think it's kind of, ideally it would involve everybody partnering together, but you're right. Technology is having a big impact because consumers are eager for this information, as they often are. And especially as the word gets out and people like you and me start, you know, espousing the wonders and the power of those, these technologies.So I think there's that part. I do think we've got to get all the shareholders aligned, meaning I think employers as well should be big incentivizers of this. Meaning it pays for them to have their employees healthy. And that could be a plan I offer. If you're a big employer, maybe you have your folks enroll in one of these, you know, preventative plans, a hundred bucks a month, keep them healthy. You save a lot of money. I do think it helps to incentivize the users as well. I think people are often lazy. But they're, they're all concerned about their pocketbook and their loved ones.So I think the two ways to incentivize people are give them, you know, discounts on their insurance if they walk their 10,000 steps and you got to come up with ways for them not to cheat  or, or do various things. But  I, I do think that will help. Or you relay their family members who like egg them on a bit. It's because sometimes that's very incentivizing. So I think we need, we need to have good incentive ways to do that.I think financial incentives are one of the better ones. And again, that can relay back to the employer. The employer can offer these plans and then give people bonuses if they do, they're supposed to, you know, if you, if you are overweight and lose weight you know, maybe that would, well, you don't want to be able to get overweight and then lose weight, but you want to incentivize people to lose weight.Anyway, you come up with the right models for incentivizing folks. So, so we need to get the financial models in place. We need to show the stuff works and the technology is going to keep improving, getting cheaper, et cetera. So it's all going to go together, I think, in parallel. And then people like you and me will be out there saying, man, this is amazing. Everybody should be doing this sort of stuff. Harry Glorikian: I say it now. It's just tough to get everybody on board. Michael Snyder: Yeah. People are still scared. Yeah. But that'll go away. Harry Glorikian: I hope so. I hope that physicians get less scared. That's my biggest hope. Michael Snyder: Yeah. We've got to educate them. And those folks, you have to show that it works, that it has power. But they do have these refresher classes, they call them continuing medical education, and a lot of physicians do that. And I think it's a great way. I give a lot of talks at those, as a way to try to, I think, at least show the potential of what we're trying to do. And I think some of them buy it and some of them don't. Harry Glorikian: Yeah. And, and, you know, I think it needs to be integrated into their technological solutions to make it easier for them to sort of absorb it. And the current systems suck. Michael Snyder: That's true. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. They say, well, how do I have time to learn this and know if it's working, I'm too busy taking care of my patients. Yeah. Your point's well taken. Harry Glorikian: So great to speak to you. I look forward to continuing to read all the stuff that you produce and all these amazing, you know, technologies that you're constantly prolifically seem to be putting out there. And I'll let you know when the, when the, when my book is out, Michael Snyder: I definitely want to see it. Thank you. Harry Glorikian: Take care. Bye-bye.

Meet Amanda Abella! She is a business boss babe and marketing strategist for female coaches and course creators. She's been featured in multiple publications for helping clients go from hating sales and marketing to achieving 90% close rates and closing multiple five-figure deals. Tune in to hear about her journey and how she's taking the entrepreneurial world by storm! Show Notes: Check out Amanda's Podcast: Make Money Your Honey Join her free Facebook Group Connect with Amanda on Instagram: @AmandaAbella Partial Transcript (Read the Full Transcript HERE): Kimberly Olson: All right. Welcome back to another episode of The Goal Digger Girl. I am so excited because I have a rock star sales woman here who is going to teach y'all how to make more sales and really feel confident in the process. So welcome on Amanda. Is it Abella? Is that how to say your last name? Amanda Abella: It's Abella. Kimberly Olson: Ooh, I like it. Abella. All right, girl. Well welcome on. We're so excited to have you. Amanda Abella: 00:24 I am so excited to be here. I'm thrilled. I think there's a great synergy between the audiences. 'Cause you talk about visibility and I talk about sales and I'm like, well! I mean if you have all these eyeballs on you, how do you convert them into money? So I think this is great. I'm super excited to talk about this. Kimberly Olson: This is so great. It's the perfect marriage. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like we do a lot with audience building and then they go, "but how do I actually close people?" And I teach funnel people to your Facebook group, love on them, nurture them, but there's still a gap between that and actually closing sales. So if you're new to anyone in my audience, can you share with everyone a little bit about you, your background? What got you into it? Amanda Abella: Yeah. So I am the CEO and founder of Make Money or Honey, which is a marketing and sales training company for creatives, coaches, and consultants. Women coaches, creatives, and consultants, I should say. And basically we help people with their system, influence and sales. So we'll help them build their intellectual property. We'll help them grow their influence. And then we actually teach you everything sales. Like I joke that our main program, sales is literally like half the program. And the reason I got here is because I've been in sales since I was 20, but nobody told me. So I was doing fundraising, I was a recruiter. That's what I was doing at my previous employment. I gave tours for my college, which was all about like sales presentation and getting donors and all that kind of stuff. And then I started my first business in 2010. I was actually a freelance writer. So I actually did marketing and freelance writing for financial companies, and financial brands, and financial websites for eight years. Kimberly Olson: Whoa. Amanda Abella: Yeah, that's what, that was my first business. And I started running into a problem around year six or seven where I was like, "Oh, I can't scale this". Kimberly Olson: And I'm so tired of writing. Amanda Abella: And I was so tired of writing and I was like- Kimberly Olson: I used to blog. Amanda Abella: Oh really? And a couple of editors kind of started turning into bosses and I have authority issues.

It's those lovable American rugby dopes talking about that leather oblong ball we adore. In this episode we talk about a couple of unfortunate retiring players due to injuries and the slight difference between the two situations. We of course dive into the action from down under including the not so funny business D-Mack was up to. We bring it north to discuss a couple refereeing styles that we saw this weekend and why neither is necessarily right, but one is more tolerable. Yes we dive into the Premier 15s Final between the Quins and Sarries, that Mum you never mess with and that interview we all were finding the tears about. All this, the whip around for all 3 leagues including MLR and more. Crack a couple frosty ones and tune in! Don't forget, we are putting together a 2nd Tier of Champi-Yanks League! You've heard us babble about it and if it sounds like fun to you, please hit us up via email or twitter. Also, ask us questions via Twitter: Jarrod- jdyke8man & Ben- admrablsnackbar. Send us your thoughts for the show and questions for upcoming shows via e-mail fantasyrugbypodcast@gmail.com. Of course we welcome feedback via e-mail, twitter or by rating/reviewing the pod on Apple Podcast.

What do you do when you wake up some morning and realize that you have run way too far down the wrong road? Life isn't working. You feel absolutely lost. I used to hear Billy Graham say that Christ is the answer, and that's true enough; but I couldn't help wondering what a man with a terrible hangover, who knew that his life was coming apart, would think that meant. Johnny Cash's recording of Sunday Mornin' Comin' Down haunts my mind to this day. Kris Kristofferson wrote the song; but Johnny Cash, being a man who found some kind of redemption in his life, sang the song with a special feeling—the feeling of a man who had come to realize that everyone else in the world had a reason to be alive that Sunday morning, but he couldn't find one for himself. In the park I saw a daddy with a laughing little girl that he was swinging. And I stopped beside a Sunday school and listened to the songs they were singing. Then I headed down the street, and somewhere far away a lonely bell was ringing, and it echoed through the canyon like the disappearing dreams of yesterday. On a Sunday morning sidewalk, I'm wishing, Lord, that I was stoned. 'Cause there's something in a Sunday that makes a body feel alone. And there's nothing short a' dying that's half as lonesome as the sound of the sleeping city sidewalk and Sunday morning coming down. Johnny Cash said a lot in that song about the aloneness that can come on a man, a woman, when everyone else is at home or at church, when the streets are empty and there is nothing to distract him from the simple truth that he is lost. And I can't help but wonder: Why didn't the man in the song just go on in where they were singing those songs? But, I think I understand; so let's talk about it... Referenced Works: Sunday Morning Coming Down - Johhny Cash

Tuesday, June 1st marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary, so Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen share about lessons learned and behind-the-scenes stories from one year of podcasting, the most recent dance-for-film production that they produced, and the exciting news for VidaDance Company's first live performance since 2019! (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is VidaDance's KC Fringe promo image for our filmed production, "When.")   Get the latest news from VidaDance Company: www.vidadancecompany.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 55 – Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited about today because this is a pretty special episode. Tomorrow, June 1st, marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary. And so today I invited my husband, Kevin, to come back to the show. Thank you for being here today, Kevin. [00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you for having me. [00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I thought we would just talk about, you know, one year of Artfully Told and sort of maybe what we've been up to art wise over the last year, or what's coming up just to celebrate all things art. Yeah. So Yeah. So, gosh, do you have any questions for me right off the bat? Because I feel like this is... [00:01:17] Kevin Dinneen: yeah, I do. So, so one year in how many, how many episodes is that? How many interviews? [00:01:23] Lindsey Dinneen: So I have, at this point, this will be my 55th episode published because I did start with a few at the launch. [00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So in those 55 episodes, what is something that you've learned? Sort of, is there a general sense of something that you've learned or something that you've kind of appreciated in general that you didn't expect, or? [00:01:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I think a lot of interesting things have emerged from the process. Of course, you know, this is my first time hosting a podcast and being part of it from start to finish. So I've, I've learned a lot about the process of actually producing a podcast and what all goes into that... [00:02:07] Kevin Dinneen: The technical aspects. [00:02:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. [00:02:10]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so you learned all the technical aspects of it. [00:02:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And then the, I think one of the most interesting prevailing themes-- that was a little surprising to me only because I hadn't thought about it this way was-- you know, I asked my guests the same three questions every time. And one of them is, "what do you think is the most important role of an artist?" And I've gotten a lot of amazing answers, but one of the most commonly expressed answers is a form of, "to be true to yourself" or "to be honest," or, you know, those kinds of answers. And what's interesting to me about that is, you know, as a, as an artist, who's always taken on a different persona, like as a character or, you know, I'm portraying a certain emotion or something like that, it's not necessarily-- it's not like I'm being dishonest in the portrayal-- but my version of art... [00:03:07] Like to me, it was interesting because for somebody who is just, is maybe a visual artist expressing themselves through painting or something like that, then to be true to themselves or honest is like them taking their truth and putting it onto like a canvas or something like that. Well, it was interesting about being an artist who takes on somebody else's persona, is that I want to do that character justice for that. At the same time, it's not me being myself honest, if that makes sense? And so that was always kind of an interesting answer that I've really enjoyed kind of delving into in a different way, because my answer to that question is different, but it's only because of the way that my art has come out so far, if that makes any sense. [00:03:55]Kevin Dinneen: Could you say that, that you're being true to your character? [00:03:58]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. [00:03:59] Kevin Dinneen: For portrayal? [00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, I would always want to do that, but I think, I think I just hadn't, I hadn't labeled it as the most important thing for an artist because of the kind of work that I do. So I just really liked that perspective and thinking about how important that is to so many artists. [00:04:20] Kevin Dinneen: So is there anything, can you think of a particular moment or two that surprised you? [00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen:  I have definitely had some guests, you know, with varied backgrounds where... well, I think, you know what, okay. Here's one thing that has been really important for me to learn and understand would be, especially people who've had different experiences with art based on, you know, their race or gender or whatever else . And, and it's so specific because the way that artists are treated, just, I guess like every human being-- unfortunately or fortunately-- has been treated, is different in the arts world. And so I think what has been interesting to me is learning the, the stories about people overcoming challenges that were kind of put in their way because of these different aspects of who they are, where it should, I think, just be about, you know, the right person for the right role or, you know, you're, you're a talented artist, regardless of what you look like or who you are. Everyone's experience is so different based on kind of who they are, what they look like, and stuff like that. So that's been really important for me, I think, to, to listen to these stories and to share them, because it provides a different perspective than maybe I would have had myself, and that's what I love about the podcast too. [00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: You get to maybe not experience what they experienced, but you get an idea of that experience. [00:05:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:05:55] Kevin Dinneen: It broadens your own kind of vision of art. [00:05:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. It broadens the vision. And I don't force this conversation but it does open up conversations that might otherwise be difficult to have, or wouldn't come up necessarily, 'cause they're not always fun to talk about per se, but when you create a space where you can share about the good, the bad and the ugly, I think that that's been one of the most wonderful things is having people share honestly about their experiences. [00:06:26]Kevin Dinneen: Looking forward, for the next year, the next 55 podcasts, is there-- or episodes I should say. [00:06:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Woo. [00:06:35] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. I have big dreams for you. [00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh boy. I won't be sleeping ever. [00:06:41]Kevin Dinneen: So in the next 55 episodes, is there something that you would like to be intentional about and, and kind of focus on or? I know this year has just kind of been... [00:06:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Exploration? [00:06:55] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. You know, you've been kind of learning and experiencing. And, and are there any changes you'd like to make or in your, in your approach or anything like that? [00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I really like the conversations that have emerged naturally through these episodes. And I would like to keep it that sort of organic, like it's just the two of us having a conversation about art. So it doesn't feel as... [00:07:20] Kevin Dinneen: That's the only agenda. [00:07:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Talk about art. [00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Talk about art and, and there's, that can go in so many different directions, but as long as we kind of keep the central theme of art and, and, and the stories that connect us. I think that that's really important to me. I particularly love hearing about certain moments that really stand out to people. So I think emphasizing that, yes, it's important to share about our creative processes and things like that. And I think that's very interesting, especially if like, I'm not a writer. So listening to a writer talk about their process is really cool to me, but I also really love the moments when people say, "You know, I went to this art gallery and I saw this one painting, and this one painting for whatever reason, spoke to me that day. And it changed my perspective on my relationship with my dad." Or something like that, where, you know, those moments are so cool and they happen. [00:08:15] And I think we just need to talk about them more. So I think I'm looking forward to hearing more and more stories about the power of, of art. And then I think the other thing that I'm gonna mix up and play with a little bit is, now you've all had the opportunity to hear from a lot of different people about their perspectives on my final three questions. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be mixing those up. I'm kind of excited about that. I don't have them in stone yet. [00:08:43] Kevin Dinneen: That was my next, my next question. Do we get a preview of what any of those questions are? [00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I'll give you one, 'cause it's a good one to probably ponder before coming on the show, although maybe, you know, again-- sometimes the spur of the moment answers are, are particularly delightful too. But I think one of the questions I want to ask is something along the lines of what you asked me at one of our episodes of,  you know, "Say this is your last day to live and you only get to experience one thing of art-- one show, one piece, one book, whatever-- one last time, what would that be and why?" And I just think that's such an interesting question to ask, because I think it'll, it'll tell us a lot about the individuals and sort of what means the most, you know, thinking about those last few moments. I think that will be really cool. [00:09:33] Kevin Dinneen: Are you going to keep any of the others or completely switch it up? [00:09:36] Lindsey Dinneen: I don't know. I don't know. I think probably that new question will become the new third question. I do like, I like all the questions. This is the problem, but I also think it's maybe time to do some new ones, so I don't know. TBD. [00:09:53] Kevin Dinneen: All right. So outside of the, the podcast, anything interesting in this past year related to art that stands out for you? [00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think this has been a really wonky season for a lot of artists, but so there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much creative art stuff that I got to do last year. But as we're starting to kind of see things open back up, I'm really excited. Actually, yesterday we just finished wrapping up filming for  my professional company's very first dance for film production. We're fondly referring to it as your term, which is a dancical. In fact, you want to talk about why we're calling it a dancicle. [00:10:40] Kevin Dinneen: So this year was so unique. And you know, we had the opportunity for your, your company to perform, but not live. We could perform on a stage and film it. [00:10:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:10:56]Kevin Dinneen: But you know, that, that really poses an interesting challenge because it's not very immersive. [00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:11:03]Kevin Dinneen: You're just sitting there watching a video of something that happened live. And you know, I think that's one thing that "Hamilton" did well. It was, it was well-produced when they did it on stage very much and showed it in video. [00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yep. [00:11:20]Kevin Dinneen: But I think it's really hard to do well, and we have a little bit smaller of a budget. [00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: A hundred or two bucks maybe. Right. [00:11:34]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so we had to be creative and, and had the idea to film a dance, but movie style, on locations. And so basically it's like a musical because it is a video, a movie, but there's no dialogue, it's all, it's dance. But it is, you know, in, on set and in locations and things like that with a soundtrack. So, so not all of it is dancing. So that's why it's a dancical. Just like in a musical, it's not all singing. So that's where, that's where the term dancical came from. [00:12:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, exactly. I love it. Yeah. I'm super excited for so many reasons, but I think that that particular adventure is going to be really cool to see it come together. I mean, it was such an interesting process because, you know, I've never-- obviously we've had things filmed before, but it, it's kind of like what Kevin was saying in the sense of like, we do this stage production. There's this one, maybe two camera angles, but it's, it's mostly just to have like a memory of it. And so to then go and work with a filmmaker-- and we have the great privilege of working with Alden Miller, who was actually a previous guest on Artfully Told. So definitely go check out his episode. He has a lot of great insight and wisdom to share and, but, yeah. So we've been working with him and, you know, he's fantastic. He's an award winning documentary filmmaker. So he knows exactly what he's doing. And he was so gracious to work with a company that is super enthusiastic, but doesn't know the ropes behind creating a film, right? So, you know, from the get go, it was a collaborative process. Kevin was the person who came up with the storyline. I was frankly, not feeling very inspired. I, I had these ideas. I just didn't feel like any of them would work. And then one day, Kevin had this-- well, I'll let you tell this part of the story if you're okay with it. [00:13:36]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, so I, I was, I dunno what you would say, fulfilling a challenge. The challenge was to memorize something and I had a week to memorize something, some sort of text, and I chose Rudyard Kipling's poem, "If," and it was a poem that he wrote for his son. And I was pretty inspired by it because it, it talks about being a man, but you know, really it's just about being a legitimate, good person and basically how to act. And I was inspired by it and felt like we could come up with a story that embodies, and, you know, makes it into a visual source to tell this story. So that was, that was my inspiration. So then you read it and you're like," Yeah. That's okay." And... [00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I loved the poem. I just also couldn't picture, right.... [00:14:38] Kevin Dinneen: I mean, like that's an okay inspiration for a thing, but it didn't quite... [00:14:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Where could this lead to in a dance production kind of thing. [00:14:45] Kevin Dinneen: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So then we kind of hashed it out, what it might look like, some storyline ideas. And then, yeah, it was at one point, probably one of my prouder moments when you're like, "Okay, this could probably work." [00:14:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what's cool about the poem and maybe we can post a copy or at least a link to, to view it. We'll do that in our show notes, but it's, it's a fantastic poem. It's really inspiring. And, it's kind of just sort of naturally broken into four sections. And so Kevin took the four sections and put a storyline. So there's sort of four storylines that follow, you know, in our case, women, mostly. But, but follow women through their individual storylines, but what's kind of cool about the way that it's turned out, is they're interwoven in interesting ways. So you, you sort of see the characters woven into the different scenes, and I think that's going to be a really cool aspect of it. [00:15:40] Like, you know, you'll see, for example, the lead characters from the first scene, you'll see them visiting the restaurant in the second scene, you know, and, and so sort of it kind of weaves through. So I think it's actually going to turn out really cool. But yeah, and so once, once Kevin had sort of narrowed it down, we had sort of hashed it out a little bit, we then met with Alden and really kind of had like a brainstorming, "here's what we're thinking." But he's essentially a professional storyteller, so like, this is his area. So like, "What do you see in and how can we make this all work together?" And so once that process got done, then it was a matter of, well, I think you had already picked out music by that time too. [00:16:20]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, we had had all the music ready. And what's interesting about that is when we're coming up with our storyline and he's saying, "Okay, where, where is this going to be?" Oh, I don't know. You know, we're just used to always having a stage. That's where it's going to be. So that was another interesting element and, and sort of challenge is finding locations to shoot and getting permission and jumping through all the hoops and, there's all sorts of things that we had to do. All sorts of things that we're not used to doing that it was a learning process. [00:16:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and honestly, I'll just-- to be totally frank, you know, normally when we're doing this process, I'm very used to the process of coordinating people with rehearsal time, and we usually have one space that we're rehearsing in. So it's, it's a very easy process in the sense of, yeah, we're trying to figure out overlapping schedules of availability, but it's that compared to time slots and what we need? It's not that bad, and I've done it a lot, so I'm very comfortable with it. But this was this whole other layer of not only are we coordinating people's availability, but we're also coordinating Alden's availability with that, and on top of that venue availability, and on top of that weather conditions. So frankly it was one of the most stressful periods of my life, probably since awhile, because there was just so much to coordinate and I just wasn't, I also wasn't aware of the length of time it takes to coordinate things like that. 'Cause you know, I'm kind of used to-- all right, this studio is available then. Perfect. So this is how we'll fit it in, versus, you know, like filming at a college. There's this entire process that you have to go through of getting approved and where exactly are you going to film and then filling out all the paperwork and stuff like that. And so the lead time is so much longer. [00:18:16] Kevin Dinneen: And then finding a time where students and teachers aren't going to be interrupted with the filming and. [00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:18:23] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. All sorts of things. [00:18:24] Lindsey Dinneen: All sorts of things. So yeah, it was just a totally different process. But then, so there was that learning curve, but then there was a learning curve of actually like being in the process of the actual filming taking place and not realizing certain things, which has been really cool, actually. Like, you know, when you're filming a movie, for instance, you're going to have the characters change costumes, change clothes between different days or different scenes. That makes complete sense to me. But as a dancer who usually sticks with, you know, dance kind of choreography, usually if you're establishing a character, you keep their costume the same throughout, 'cause that way it's easy to identify as an audience like, "Oh, you know, Jane always wears her blue gingham dress. "So you know that's Jane, if that makes sense, partly because we don't have the advantage of getting to see people's faces all that close. And so it is important to kind of establish, but now it was like, "Oh right, we should change hairstyles. We should change maybe even a little bit different makeup. We need to change the clothes from day to day." So it looks like not just one long one day, you know, but different days. And this is a progressive storyline. That was funny, but you know, not something I would have thought of. [00:19:45] Kevin Dinneen: And the thing that stood out for me that was probably the most different that I noticed was for dance, you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then boom, you have one shot and you get it perfect. And then in this, rehearsing is almost worthless because if you go to a space that is not the film set and rehearse, it's not going to be the same. And so then when you get on to set, you have, you have different things that get in the way or it's carpet and you didn't rehearse on carpet. So this turn is not gonna work. So you just get there and you do a bunch of takes. [00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: You're absolutely right. And certain things too, you know, there were, there were certain spaces that we didn't even have access to before the day of the filming. Well, I guess all of them where we had kind of, we had an idea of the space and what, what we could use of it, but it's still different, you know? 'Cause you take away the certain image and you kind of say, "Okay, this is, I think, choreography that's gonna fit in right here." But then you get there and you realize that either things have moved or they actually don't want you to touch this one thing that you thought it would be okay if, you know, you use the counter as like a barre or, you know, stuff like that, where it-- that's all fine, well, and good. It's just, it was really interesting 'cause it was like, okay, set the choreography. Try to be as prepared as you can be. And then the day of is like completely flexible and things changed like that, you know? And it was, I'm so grateful. I work with such amazing dancers who are totally fine with that. There were no complaints, there were no issues whatsoever. They were like, "Sure. Okay. Yeah." And then, you know, you're doing your fourth, fifth take of the exact same moment. And we're just not used to that, but you know, everyone was like, "This is fun," you know? [00:21:42] Kevin Dinneen: And the feedback from the dancers, they're like, "Oh, would it work if I did this, or maybe I could do this?" just like on film day. [00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:21:51] Kevin Dinneen: That doesn't happen in productions. [00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. "Let's change this!". [00:21:55] Kevin Dinneen: You're not rehearsing for month, and then like, "You know, I was thinking!" [00:21:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Let's do it this way instead. [00:22:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:22:02] Kevin Dinneen: And so that was fun. [00:22:03] Lindsey Dinneen: It was fun. [00:22:03] Kevin Dinneen: It was fun. And, and worked really well. [00:22:08] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.  And I think, you know, and it seems so obvious when I think about it in context, but without having someone to say, "You know, you're going to have to be loose with your musical interpretation of some of these movements so that it can be adopted for film." It just, it wasn't something that I had really thought about. So I think the learning curve has been a lot of fun too. There would be moments when, you know, Alden would say, "Okay, so from my perspective as a filmmaker, I'm seeing this. Now I know this is different than a normal dance production."  And so, you know, funny things like that, where all of a sudden be like, "Oh, okay, actually, can you start from the other side and do your thing the reverse way?" And, and, you know, just things I just didn't think about. It was great. [00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And now, it's kind of out of your hands... [00:22:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is! [00:22:55] Kevin Dinneen: It's up to Alden and his superpower... [00:22:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Magical genius... [00:23:00] Kevin Dinneen: Of editing. [00:23:03] Lindsey Dinneen: So we'll see, but we're really excited. It's going to premiere at the Kansas City Fringe Festival in July. We will definitely be talking about that closer to the time, but keep your eyes open on our company website, which is www.vidadancecompany.com and also www.kcfringe.org, because that's where you'll be able to take advantage of seeing us dance and seeing this brand new production. [00:23:33] Kevin Dinneen: And I think, I don't know of another movie like this. I think this might be pretty close to the first of its kind. There's probably very few people that have tried this. [00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, 'cause it's, it's not like you see a lot of really good like dance movies or dance inspired movies where it's about a group of dancers, but there's always dialogue. [00:24:01]Kevin Dinneen: And it's about dance. It's not using dance as the medium. [00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of the way... [00:24:07] Kevin Dinneen: To tell the story. [00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:10] Kevin Dinneen: 'Cause this isn't about dance. [00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's using... [00:24:13] Kevin Dinneen: It is dance. [00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It is dance. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I like it. And I think that's why dancical is so appropriate, because it's a good way of describing it. So yeah. So our production is called "When," so, you know the idea behind that was, Kipling's poem, "If," and then we sort of interpreted that to be, when you are these things, then this is what/ who you can become or who you can be and how you can navigate life. So it's really exciting. [00:24:40] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So that was the latest project that we were working on. [00:24:48]Kevin Dinneen: So you got some good news yesterday, I think it was, and it's art related. [00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is art-related. So we booked the theater at Union Station in Kansas City for a reprise of our unique Nutcracker called "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker." And on top of that, we got word from the aerial dance company, Kansas City Aerial Arts, that we have partnered with in the past. And they are going to be joining us for this production again, which is so exciting. I'm so thrilled because they're wonderful people, just so great to work with and bring such a cool, unique element. So that's going to be the first weekend of December and I am so excited. Live performances are going to be back! [00:25:44] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Yeah. Cool. Well,. I do want to say congratulations on the one year anniversary you made it a year. [00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I did! Successfully. We're still going! [00:25:59] Kevin Dinneen: And, and learned everything from scratch. Taught yourself. You've got your setup. It's a one-woman show. You've, you've rocked it, and people love it. So, good job. Congratulations. [00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. Well, so I'm just curious since I'm now experimenting with different questions. Do you have any different questions that you would like to ask me? We can test them out in real time. [00:26:23] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. [00:26:23] Lindsey Dinneen: This is off the cuff, guys. [00:26:24] Kevin Dinneen: Well, this whole episode is. We didn't talk about this. [00:26:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, this is very true. [00:26:28] Kevin Dinneen: Gosh. Is there something that stands out to you as, as something that is art related that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt a little intimidated, and that just kind of held you back? Or "I've never even, I wouldn't know where to start?" Or is there something like that that you would love to do? It's just kind of been outside your wheelhouse, but you would love to try. [00:26:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I have two pipe dreams. One is to act. I really think I would enjoy acting. I, I love that element that I get to do in dance productions. So I actually think that having a speaking role in like a play or something else would be really cool, but it's so intimidating to me. I can memorize choreography. I'm sure I could figure out how to memorize lines, but it feels different. I'll put it that way. And a different kind of vulnerable.  I've kind of gotten used to the way dance is vulnerable, but that would be like a whole 'nother level. So that's, that's one pipe dream. And the other one would be singing. I love singing, but I don't have any formal training, and I would absolutely need it if I ever try to pursue anything, I don't think anyone would be super thrilled to hear me without it. But yeah,  those are the two things that are kind of hanging out there that I'd love to do at some point. [00:27:51] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. So, so in the world of art, just in general, which is the whole world, right? [00:27:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. The world is art. [00:28:00]Kevin Dinneen: So let's, let's see. Maybe we can narrow that down. What, what would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art or making it available to people, what change would you like to see  in how art works basically? In general, what's, what's a change you'd like to see? [00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a great question. I really like it. I think, I think one change I would really like to see is more of an exposure to arts from a young age, more of a chance to participate in arts from a young age.  It's difficult because arts tend to be the first thing that get cut in a school's budget, right? And, you know, study after study has proven that kiddos who are involved in arts usually do better academically and socially and things like that, build really good life skills, but it is, you know, I also can understand how from just a fiscal responsibility perspective, people would cut that, because there are other things that are important too. But when that happens, there's just such a gap in a child's education and even a way of positively expressing themselves and learning that  there's a lot of emotion that doesn't necessarily need to be expressed in words, or in behavioral changes. You could take that emotion and whatever is coming up and put it onto a canvas or into a dance or into a song. And I think that if we could do that at a younger age to nurture this art appreciation, I think that that would actually have a really positive impact on the world, because there'd be so many more people able to express themselves.  And like I said, it doesn't have to be words. It could be. Maybe that's the way you choose to, but it could be these grand masterpieces that we would never get otherwise, because a child was one time told, "Oh, that's a silly drawing" or something like that. So I think if we could encourage the arts and participation in the arts from a younger age, that would be my dream. [00:30:08] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So it's no surprise then that you teach young students. [00:30:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I suppose so! [00:30:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. And, and that's been important to you, so that makes sense. [00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:30:19]Kevin Dinneen: So do I have to come up with a third one? [00:30:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't think so. I think those are two really good ones. Yeah. [00:30:25] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. I'll do a third one in another episode. [00:30:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, that's fair! Alright. Well, thank you, Kevin, for being my guest host today and asking good questions and then, you know, helping me tell our stories. I appreciate it. And I, I really have to say this has been such a cool opportunity for me. I have loved getting to talk to people who are doing just amazing things with their lives. And, you know, art plays a big role in that for these people, but just who they are and how they're contributing is so cool. And the power of the arts, and just being able to have these honest conversations about the good, the bad and the ugly in the art world, I think has been outstanding for me personally. Every time I get to record an episode, it just sort of fills my soul back up and, and, you know, it reminds me that there is a lot of good in the world and people are doing really good things. And I think that's so important to remember. [00:31:29]So, so I guess I have a twofold thanks. One part of that thanks is to everyone who's been a guest so far on Artfully Told and has been willing to be honest and transparent and willing for me to ask you questions that might kind of throw you for a second, but that you're willing to dive a little deeper into some of the concepts, and I really appreciate that. And so thank you to everyone who's been a guest, but also a huge thank you to everyone who has been a supporter by listening to the episodes and whether you let me know you're listening or not, I just appreciate each and every one of you because you are what keeps us going. So thank you. Happy one year! This is really exciting. I'm super stoked. I don't ever say the word stoked, but here we are. I'm just that excited and I can't wait to share art with the world. And I hope you're feeling inspired. I hope you share this episode, or one of the many that are available and many more to come, with a friend and we will catch you next time. [00:32:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

SORRY TO THAT MAN...'Cause he didn't wake up Black. But if you did, come along with the KO Chick and have a celebration of some of the things that encompass Black Excellence! Sounds so beautiful. Don't you agree?

The Season 1 FINALE will finally solve the mystery of what caused the apocalyptic fireball and who's responsible! Will Ms. Dogood find herself in jail or will it all be pinned on Devil Brown??  One thing is certain; Deputy Allen has it all figured out and is about to reveal all. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on the show political consultant Heather Weiner joins Crystal to talk about former Attorney General Rob McKenna suing to stop Washington's new capital gains tax, elections heating up as we reach the final deadline for filing to run for office, and the release of letters condemning Mayor Durkan's intentional disregard and degradation of Black staff members. As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at officialhacksandwonks.com. Find the host, Crystal Fincher on Twitter at @finchfrii and find today's co-host, Heather Weiner, at @hlweiner. More info is available at officialhacksandwonks.com.   Resources “Former Attorney General Rob McKenna joins lawsuit seeking to invalidate Washington state's capital gains tax” by Jim Brunner: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/former-attorney-general-rob-mckenna-joins-lawsuit-seeking-to-invalidate-capital-gains-tax/ Who has filed to run for office:  King County: https://info.kingcounty.gov/kcelections/Vote/contests/who-has-filed.aspx?eid=26 Pierce County: https://voter.votewa.gov/CandidateList.aspx?e=870&c=27 Snohomish County: https://voter.votewa.gov/CandidateList.aspx?e=870&c=34 “An early win in a crowded race, González grabs MLK Labor endorsement, talks workers rights in mayor's office, buses on city streets” by Jake Goldstein-Street: https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2021/05/an-early-win-in-a-crowded-race-gonzalez-grabs-mlk-labor-endorsement-talks-workers-rights-in-mayors-office-buses-on-city-streets/ The full letters detailing how Durkan's office has been a barrier for Black Brilliance Project and harmful to Black women: Letter 1: https://council.seattle.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/IDT-Letter-1.pdf Letter 2: https://council.seattle.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Ubax-Bo-Break-letter.pdf   Transcript Crystal Fincher: [00:00:00] Welcome to Hacks and Wonks. I'm your host, Crystal Fincher. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on politics in our state. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes. Feel free to leave us a review on iTunes if you're enjoying the show, or any other place where you're getting the podcast.  Today, we're continuing our Friday almost-live shows where we review the news of the week with a cohost. Welcome back to the program friend of the show and today's co-host: excellent political consultant and urban farmer, Heather Weiner.  Heather Weiner: [00:00:54] Hi, Crystal. So excited to be here. Good morning, afternoon -  Crystal Fincher: [00:00:58] So excited to have you here. Yeah, we're in the morning- this is an almost-live show, so people hear this just a few hours after we get done recording. We gotta, you know, transcribe the show and do all that kind of stuff, but we get it out super fast. So we're talking about the news of the day - there are several things that have happened this week. A couple highlights - it is filing week, where everyone is filing for office - lots of different races. Mayor's race in Seattle is hot and heating up, we've had some forums this week, one big one with the King County Labor Council and a big endorsement there. There's a lawsuit filed against capital gains tax, and the exemption for car dealerships. And also, there were two letters shared that had previously been covered - just excerpts of them - in media, but that really detail challenges that people within the City, particularly Black women, have had with Jenny Durkan in her office in reference to the Black Brilliance Project and participatory budgeting. So why don't we just dive into it - starting, I guess, with the capital gains tax. Let's dive into that. You are intimately familiar with this. What is going on?  Heather Weiner: [00:02:12] So, our fantastic legislature and governor passed - the first of its kind in the state - a modest capital gains tax on just really the top 1%. These are people who make profits when they sell their stocks, and it gives a modest tax on profits greater than a quarter of a million dollars on the sale of a stock or a bond. So, it sounds like it wouldn't be very much, but we have so many billionaires in the state, and almost billionaires, that it would actually raise half a billion dollars a year for childcare, education, schools - helping our kids and helping parents.  And yet, you would think that that is very popular, which it is. It gets somewhere between 60% and 80% approval ratings from the Washington public and Washington voters, according to polls. And yet, some people don't like it. They want to sue. So we have two lawsuits that have now been filed against this in court, which I imagine will go right to the - through the process - to the state Supreme Court. And I'm not going to talk about the merits of the lawsuits. Blahbity blahbidy blahbity - they don't like it. They're gonna say it's unconstitutional, they're going to make a whole bunch of arguments - specious arguments - against it. It's really a delay tactic. They're just trying to delay it. It's going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees from the taxpayers, and capital gains is still going to be law at the end of the day.  Now, I want to talk about who's filing this. So Rob McKenna - remember him? Crystal Fincher: [00:03:53] Remember him well - yes, Republican Rob McKenna, branded as your friendly non-threatening moderate neighborhood Republican. And it really was just a sheep in wolf's clothing - or a wolf in sheep's clothing - situation. Just a hot mess - and then I think he was working for Big Oil for a while and yeah -  Heather Weiner: [00:04:17] Oh yeah - no. He's -. Crystal Fincher: [00:04:18] - just turned out to be just run-of-the-mill - just defend major billionaires, major corporations to pollute, to run roughshod over residents, and to just reap corporate profits with no responsibility attached to it.  Heather Weiner: [00:04:34] Oh, yeah, that Rob McKenna. Anyway, so Rob McKenna is now doing a media tour this week, talking about this lawsuit and how bad this is. So the corporate interests and these big millionaire interests are using as their front people - farmers, small business owners - but none of them would really be impacted by this unless they're making enormous profits from the sales of stocks and bonds. So they're using them as front people, but really it's this top 1% who are going to be impacted by this - who are funding all this. So they've just filed a lawsuit - it's making big headlines.  And at the same time, Jim Brunner from the Seattle Times just came out with an article this morning - talking about how auto dealerships got a special exemption in the capital gain - from the capital gains tax. Which I thought was fascinating - I was intimately involved with what was going on with the capital gains negotiations - and I didn't even know about this. So that just shows how much I don't know - that was a secret. Crystal Fincher: [00:05:39] Well, there's so much to talk about when it comes to our legislative process. And the process of lawmaking is opaque in many ways. And just to be familiar with it takes a lot of experience - you have to know all the intricacies of the process. It is not logical. It is not reasonable. It's just this weird, non-sensical non-linear thing - writing legislation - and it is really easy to slip in lots of provisions that you find out about after the thing has been signed. It is just really something, so I'm not shocked that that has happened, but it is a problem.  Heather Weiner: [00:06:21] Yeah. Yeah. Well, look - this is part of the deal making. So as you remember, as you might remember, this bill was passed with just a one vote margin in the state Senate. And I think that this - there's some deal making going back and forth. And it's really funny to watch some of the other business interests, like the Retail Federation, saying, "Well, gosh, I guess they had a good lobbyist." And that lobbyist is going to get a lot of business next year, I bet, from everybody who wants their special carve-outs.  But look, the big news here though, is that - these are incredibly rich people around the state who have been, are hoarding their wealth. They make money passively when they sell. Note that these are not retirement accounts. Retirement accounts are exempted. This is not your property. Property is exempted. I am talking about people who passively take their massive income, put it into the stock market, that then makes more income by them doing literally nothing. They then cash that stock out and only the profits greater than a quarter of a million dollars are what's taxed. So - Crystal, let's just imagine that you and I just sold some stock for 300 - we made $300,000 in profit. In profit. Right? Only $50,000 of that would actually be taxed. And we would end up paying about $3,000-3,500 in taxes on it. That's nothing for $300,000 profit. Anyway - Crystal Fincher: [00:07:50] Look, it will prevent someone from buying a couch cushion on their yacht - Heather, let's be serious. That's what we're talking about. I mean, well, and this lawsuit, it's important to understand just what is being alleged and how it's been. This isn't a surprise that this lawsuit is being raised - they've basically said this the whole time. Republicans, especially, have been saying, "This is just an income tax. And well, if we let this through, it'll let everything else through." There've been so many opinions saying that this is not an income tax - it's separate, it's a capital gains tax. But they are challenging it - saying that it's an income tax, which we cannot enact currently in Washington. And so, this capital gains tax - again, you explained it beautifully - it is very different than an income tax that applies to regular income for everyone. So we'll see how this plays out. This is not a surprise. This was passed with the full intention that it would then be defended in court. It's a step that we need to take to reform tax policy in the state. So here we go.  Heather Weiner: [00:08:57] Here we go. Here we go. And again, for those of you who - I mean, nobody who listens to this podcast thinks that their vote doesn't count - but for those of you who have friends who think that their vote doesn't count. Your vote absolutely makes huge difference because we would not have this, but for the new leadership that we have in the state House and the state Senate, and the new people who are there. So this is just a really remarkable, remarkable year for us in the state legislature. Crystal Fincher: [00:09:28] This is one those where it only got through because there were changes in the previous election. So they absolutely matter - and that brings us to filing week. This is the week where - for this year in 2021 - last year, we had the legislative races, Congressional, federal races - that kind of stuff. In odd years, we have municipal races, the really local races. So School Boards, King County and County Council races, Port Commissions - all of that stuff are on your ballot.  Heather Weiner: [00:10:06] Fire districts!  Crystal Fincher: [00:10:07] Yes!  Heather Weiner: [00:10:07] I'm saying some sexy words to you right now. School board, fire, public utility districts. Oh yes. I love it. I mean, look - this is, let me put it in terms that other people can understand. This is like NFL draft day.  Crystal Fincher: [00:10:19] It is.  Heather Weiner: [00:10:19] This is it, baby. I'm so excited to see who's running, and who's out there, and who's ready. Okay. All right. Let's talk about filing week. All right, Crystal, what are you excited - what are you excited to see?  Crystal Fincher: [00:10:33] I am excited about - obviously, these City of Seattle races - I don't know if excited is the word that I have for them, but they're certainly notable and interesting. But beyond that, we have so many races here throughout the state. But focusing on others in King County, looking at the King County Executive race - Dow Constantine, long-time incumbent, who has been comfortably elected and not really challenged this entire time. He's a 12-year incumbent and being challenged by Senator Joe Nguyen who has been quite active in passing policy, who is - established himself as someone known as a progressive voice passing progressive policy - and is challenging Dow Constantine. And that could be a really interesting race.  Heather Weiner: [00:11:29] And so it's notable that he's being challenged from the left, by Senator Nguyen. What do you think about a challenge from the right? Crystal Fincher: [00:11:38] You know, it's interesting - that would certainly complicate things for Dow Constantine. I'm sure he's hoping he doesn't get a more credible challenger from the right. Right now, Bill Hirt has also filed in the race, so he's there. There's also Goodspaceguy and Johnathon Crines. We're all familiar - well, people who pay attention to politics familiar - it's not really a race until Goodspaceguy has filed. So here we are and it's official. And then Johnathon Crines, who I'm actually not familiar with, but I'm sure I will be getting more familiar with him in the months to come. But we'll see if there is a - another more well-known, more established challenger to Dow from his right. If so, that makes a primary really interesting - and where are each other's bases? It certainly makes splitting the progressive vote against someone who can consolidate a more conservative vote risky for Dow. Heather Weiner: [00:12:40] Yeah, it is very interesting. I think I've seen labor really rally behind Dow during this, which is interesting to me - because labor, of course, really loves Joe at the same time. And I'm also seeing Dow being more out there than usual - making big announcements, like a big hotel opened for people who don't have homes right now. So, you know, I know that it's super annoying to the Democratic establishment when people from the left challenge some of these long-time incumbents. But I also - to me, as just a regular voter - I think it's good. I think it's good. I think it makes the incumbents work a little bit harder and pay a little bit more attention when they might've gotten a little complacent. Not saying Dow has gotten complacent - just saying it's really, it's really interesting. And I think it's healthy for the system.  Crystal Fincher: [00:13:36] I also think it's healthy. It's a system of accountability. No one is entitled to a seat - that is not Dow's seat. It's the people's seat - and the people are often better served when they have choices for who can best represent them. And when - just watching Joe force Dow to be more out there, communicating with the public more, and more in tune with how he's serving the people - we can't, people elected should never take that for granted. And so it's always healthy to see a competitive race. I say this as someone who has someone closely related to me as an incumbent with a competitive race. This is what democracy is about. Here we are. Heather Weiner: [00:14:18] Yeah. Yeah, here we are. So there's a couple of other council races too, where we're seeing that - we see Shukri, who is challenging Dave Upthegrove.  Crystal Fincher: [00:14:26] Yeah - Shukri. Shukri Olow.  Heather Weiner: [00:14:26] Shukri. I'm sorry. Thank you for that. And I'm also really excited to see that Ubax Gardheere is challenging Reagan Dunn. So let's talk about that race for a second in Council District 9. And what region is Council District 9? Remind me - Crystal Fincher: [00:14:47] So that is east - that's, if you think about like 47th Legislative District - Maple Valley, it kind of wraps up around there - so you're like east King County - Heather Weiner: [00:15:01] Got it.  Crystal Fincher: [00:15:04] Central King County.  Heather Weiner: [00:15:04] So Ubax is an amazing activist and organizer in social justice and economic justice. She's a mom. She is an immigrant from Somalia. She worked for the Durkan administration for a little while, and then actually took a really courageous step and called out the Durkan administration. And we'll get to this in a little bit - for not, for being hostile to people of color, essentially. So, she is now out there challenging long-time Republican incumbent and son of our old Congresswoman Jennifer Dunn, Reagan Dunn. And Reagan Dunn is kind of - I've always wanted to see a serious challenge to him. Sometimes he's rumored to want to run for Governor or King County Council. I think he's a little bit of a punk. I mean, the guy doesn't get very much done. He talks off the cuff. He's got - I dunno - I just feel like he's kind of a, you know, he's just kind of the heir. He thinks he's the heir to a seat because of his mom. I'm sure he's going to sue me for all this that I'm saying right now. So, I'm really excited to see her challenge him and I'm actually going to contribute to her right after this call. Crystal Fincher: [00:16:20] Yeah. And that is actually a race with a crowded primary full of - there are a couple other progressives in that race - both Chris Franco and Kim-Khanh Van. So, kind of stacked with great candidates. It's really interesting to see how that plays out, and I think people have been wanting a choice there. And the demographic change over the past 10 years has been interesting in that district - it's still very purple, if not red-leaning. But that doesn't mean that, especially in a crowded primary, that a variety of things could happen. And there certainly are a number of issues that people could take with the incumbent's record. So I'm really interested to see how that plays out. That's going to be something - as well as the challenge to Pete von Reichbauer.  Heather Weiner: [00:17:17] Mmm hmm - tell me a little bit about that. Crystal Fincher: [00:17:18] So Lydia Assefa-Dawson, who is a Federal Way City Council member, along with Dominique Torgerson and Saudia Abdullah, are challenging Pete von Reichbauer. There are, frankly, rumors that Pete was going to see whether he had a strong or not challenge, go through this, and maybe not serve his full next term. It's interesting - I'm in Federal Way frequently and there is Pete von Reichbauer, like Drive - there's a Drive - where usually you don't drive on streets from currently elected officials. There is one there.  Heather Weiner: [00:17:55] Or living ones. Crystal Fincher: [00:17:56] Yes, but there's one in Federal Way. But that's going to be really interesting - really looking at where that district is today. A lot different than where it was 10-15 years ago - both in terms of demographics, in terms of politics - looking at the votes that they've taken, the legislative delegation that they have now. All points away from Pete von Reichbauer. So that's going to be really interesting to see if those candidates can connect with the public - but certainly a lot of people see a big opportunity there. Heather Weiner: [00:18:30] All right. Can we talk about the mayor's race though - come on, come on, come on. Crystal Fincher: [00:18:32] Okay. One, I also - I just real quick - in other notable races. Port of Seattle.  Heather Weiner: [00:18:38] Oh yeah. Crystal Fincher: [00:18:38] Port of Seattle - big deal. Port is slept on just in terms of its impact, significance, its size. It's one of the biggest districts in the state. It's basically King County. The Port controls so much. Lots of times people just think of the airport. It is so much, so much further beyond that.  Heather Weiner: [00:18:59] So much more. So the Port of Seattle - I know way too much about the Port of Seattle, and it's unfortunate for you. Talk about a policy wonk. Oh my gosh. I worked on a campaign many years ago to clean up the air pollution that comes - the diesel air pollution that comes from the massive amounts of diesel trucks that move cargo containers around the region from the Port of Seattle. They're driven by basically Uber drivers - gig workers. They have no health insurance. They pay out of their pockets. It's kind of an entry job for a lot of immigrants. And so they're very much exploited by these massively, massively rich international shipping companies.  Okay. So who has control over that? The Port of Seattle commission. And the Port of Seattle commission is generally, you're right - sleeper. Nobody pays attention to it. People tend to vote for the candidate whose name maybe they recognize, or the picture they like. This year we have a chance to elect two amazing reformers - two amazing women - to the Port of Seattle. Toshiko and Hamdi. And they, I think will bring up - first of all, they'd be the first women of color elected to the Port of Seattle commission.  Secondly, they would bring a new energy and new accountability to the Port, which I have long said, I think is the most corrupt agency in the state. Because there is so - yeah, I know that's really - look, if you gave me a million dollars today, Crystal, you know what I would do with it? Well, first of all, I would plant more plants. But the second thing I would do is I would create a Port of Seattle watchdog group. Because there is so much money and so many jobs that are being impacted by what happens at the airport, and the port, and by the land that the Port of Seattle controls, even as far out as Bellevue. Crystal Fincher: [00:20:52] So much land.  Heather Weiner: [00:20:53] So much land that they control and they have - they can have such great impact on our communities and help our communities - and they just do not do anything except provide a vehicle for the shipping companies and these massive airlines to make more money off of us. So -  Crystal Fincher: [00:21:11] I would say - certainly the Port had that reputation. I think there have been some members who have done some good work and are working on pushing in a new direction, but that they need allies on the Port. And I think Toshiko and Hamdi would be excellent allies. And also another major thing - there is currently no South King County representation on the Port -  Heather Weiner: [00:21:36] None. None, even though the airport is in South King County. Crystal Fincher: [00:21:41] Where are the impacts of the airport being felt in terms of workers, pollution, land management, coordination with immigration authorities and just law enforcement authorities. That's all South King County. And we currently have no one from South King County on there. Hamdi would be the first person - the only person on the Port from South King County. And then Toshiko - I think she's in Skyway? You know, there's lots of debate on whether Skyway is - I've had this conversation with multiple people. To me - if you don't have two bus transfers to get into Seattle, you really can't qualify yourself as South King County, but we'll see. But you know, and I don't know how much - certainly her father, Senator Hasegawa from the 11th Legislative District, is in South King County. So, there's certainly a familiarity there, but there is an opportunity to move in a different direction, and to give some of the people who are pushing in the right direction some allies to really make sure that we're serving all of the residents in King County with the Port Commission  Heather Weiner: [00:22:58] Well, let me just say one more thing about the Port Commission. One of their most important jobs is to hire, review, and hold accountable the Port Executive, the Port CEO. And we currently have a Port CEO that has done a good job of remaining below the radar screen. But prior to that, we had three extremely controversial CEOs. We had Mic Dinsmore, who ended up having to resign after some financial - some huge financial issues that were going on. We had the next one whose name - the next two, whose names I've all of a sudden blanked out on. Crystal Fincher: [00:23:33] Tay wasn't one of them? Wasn't he one of them?  Heather Weiner: [00:23:35] Oh, Yoshitani. Yeah. Tay Yoshitani - who. Yeah. Wow. I'm really impressed with you. Oh yeah. Who also sat on the board of the very companies - sat on one - on the boards of the very shippers who he was getting good lease agreements for. I mean, there was all kinds of improprieties going on there. We then had another one who came from the trucking industry, and ended up he had to leave. So the fact that we currently have a Port CEO that I don't even know the name of is probably - you're right. Probably progress.  Crystal Fincher: [00:24:07] Progress. Yeah, yeah - absolutely.  Heather Weiner: [00:24:09] Can we talk about the mayor's race, Crystal, now? Crystal Fincher: [00:24:12] Let's talk about the mayor's race. And actually there was a forum that the MLK Labor Council held earlier this week that was really interesting - that had the top six candidates on there. Hosted, moderated by Erica Barnett. That was really interesting. A big labor endorsement. And you know, you - every time you're on here, we do a full disclosure where - who you are working with.  Heather Weiner: [00:24:37] I am working with my friend, Lorena González. I do a little bit of work with her on this campaign, but as you know, and as I've said, even if I wasn't officially working with her, I would be volunteering my butt off for her because she is the champion for working people. And that is why she got the MLK Labor Council full endorsement. She won the vote - 80% to 20%, which is just amazing. It's usually very controversial within the labor council, and she - Crystal Fincher: [00:25:09] That was surprising. That was really - that was surprising to me. I was expecting it to be a lot closer than that.  Heather Weiner: [00:25:15] Well, she's pulling in endorsements from the full spectrum of the labor community here. So, you know, her first endorsements were from Unite Here and UFCW 21, which are considered to be kind of more the left wing of the labor movement. Then she got an endorsement from the Teamsters Joint Council. Teamsters Joint Council actually represents garbage truck drivers, construction drivers, cement truck drivers, as well as City employees, too. So that was pretty - I would say moderate group. And then she got the Laborers, LIUNA. So she's really pulling them in. She's got some more big labor announcements coming, I hear. It's very exciting. She got this big labor endorsement after kicking it at the forum. She did an amazing job. Sorry. Crystal Fincher: [00:26:01] And I want to talk about that forum for a little bit. I found it interesting - and we have not had many opportunities yet, to see everyone together. We're just at the beginning of this forum season. And so I thought a number of the questions were interesting. From the conversation about defunding - and I think Andrew Grant Houston was the only one who, there was a question asked, do you support 50% defunding? He said yes. But most everybody said that they definitely prefer some significant changes, structural changes within SPD. So it seems like no matter who's onboard almost, that we can expect to see changes. And it was also interesting - well, I think that's too broad of a statement. Several of the major candidates - we can expect to see changes. I think that hearing directly from Colleen Echohawk was interesting and she acquitted herself well. I think Bruce Harrell explained some of his prior gaffes pretty well, and clarifying some statements and - there were some statements from before where you where, "Hey, I'm going to have everyone sign a, basically a pledge, saying that they won't beat people," which we need to do. But he was like, "Well, if they can't do that, then like we can't even begin with them. And we have to know that they're starting from there to be able to work with them from now on." He seemed to not be quite comfortable with - there was a question, "Do you favor sweeps?" And everyone said No, with the exception of, well - Bruce Harrell said No, but he seemed very uncomfortable with saying No and asking if he could clarify his comments, whatever. And he stuck with No, but man, that seemed like a No that was not really a No, that he didn't want to be a No, but he felt like he had to say No.  And then, Casey Sixkiller said that he did favor sweeps of encampments of the unhoused. Everyone else was a firm No. That was comforting. So that was - there were certainly some interesting moments and beginning to see some contrast. I think certainly it's fair to say that Deputy Mayor Sixkiller, and former City Council member and former briefly Interim Mayor Bruce Harrell are competing for a lot of the same base. And so it was really interesting to see how they were positioning each other, and positioning against each other. And so we'll see how that plays out. What were your takeaways?  Heather Weiner: [00:28:59] My takeaways were - well, first, you know, Lorena had just had a family tragedy. Her own house is uninhabitable for the next 6-8 months. And so, she and her husband are currently couch surfing until they find a place to live with their baby. And her mother-in-law was killed in the fire. So despite that she still is showing up to these forums and that shows a remarkable amount of personal strength and commitment. So I was very impressed with that, of course. Again, disclaimer.  I thought that Casey Sixkiller - I expected him to do better than he did. Here's a guy who is a DC guy, has had a ton of experience in DC, despite the fact that he's calling himself an outsider.  Crystal Fincher: [00:29:50] Yeah, I don't know -  Heather Weiner: [00:29:51] After being a deputy mayor. Yeah, that was a little odd. So I expected him to do a lot better. And boy, is Colleen Echohawk likable. I just think she is obviously a very smart person. Very likable, and really easy to connect with. And she had to answer some really tough questions about not hiring union workers on a lot of the projects that she is overseeing, building housing. And - so she had to answer some tough questions there. So yeah, I thought it was fascinating. I thought it was a great forum.  We've got a couple of big LD, Democratic Legislative District endorsements coming up in the next week. Tomorrow is my home district, the 11th LD, where there's - I mean, how long is that meeting gonna be, Crystal? 'Cause there's so many municipal races there. Crystal Fincher: [00:30:37] I mean, I have been at 11th LD meetings that have gone past 11:00 PM.  Heather Weiner: [00:30:42] It starts at 10:00 AM. Oh my gosh -  Crystal Fincher: [00:30:46] Oh, tomorrow's Saturday. Saturday. I'm thinking of regular weekday LD meetings, but that would be like on the order of 5-6 hours.  Heather Weiner: [00:30:54] Oh my gosh. I'm just -  Crystal Fincher: [00:30:55] I hope it's not that long. There's a lot to get through, but yeah, those meetings can last. Let's, let's hope it's three.  Heather Weiner: [00:31:02] How important are the Democratic LDs really to candidates? Crystal Fincher: [00:31:09] Having this conversation with someone yesterday. So I would say - endorsements - there's the inside game and there's the outside game, right? And a lot of the inside game establishes early momentum, helps with early fundraising - there's a saying - EMILY's List is - EMILY stands for Early Money Is Like Yeast. And that's really the thing. So, does the public - I think, now more than ever, quite frankly, I think that the public does not rely on endorsements. But I think that early on - when people are looking to their close contacts, people who are their allies, people who pay attention to politics all the time, and this is what they do - before normal people pay attention in July and August for a primary. That they're trying to establish who is credible, and that they're trying to fundraise also from those same people. So they count in terms of resources for campaigns.  Do they automatically bring - if an LD endorses, does that mean all of the LD members are going to vote for someone? No. If a union endorses, does that mean all of that union's members are going to vote for that person? No. Can people take it as a sign? If they see two people who they don't know at all, then they can then say, "Okay, well maybe - this person is endorsed by all the groups that I support. I don't know a thing about them, but I know that someone I like likes them." And in the absence of other information, that can be helpful. But if you can define yourself in addition to that, then endorsements become less impactful for the general public when they're making their voting decisions. But it certainly helps with resources to communicate with the general public because that costs money. And so, I guess my shorthand is - it matters in the inside game, but ultimately voters make decisions based on what they think of the candidate and not what other people do. If they don't know anything about the candidate, then other factors come into play.  Heather Weiner: [00:33:18] I think there's also an expectation that some LDs do have a really good volunteer base. PCOs who will go out there - and I'm a PCO in the 11th District, so I would go out if I agreed with their endorsements, and knock on doors, and tell people about it. But some LDs, some Democratic districts are not yet there - don't quite have their volunteer bases up. You did an amazing job last year, helping the King County Democrats start recruiting PCOs. Thank you for that. You recruited me. So I think that really helps and that'll actually make these endorsements a lot more important to candidates over the years as that volunteer base keeps growing. Crystal Fincher: [00:33:59] Well, and that's a big thing. And I think that a number of organizations have realized that endorsements were losing some of their credibility, or some of their punch. Because candidates are going, "Well, what am I actually getting for this endorsement?" Because a lot of it is the resources - and those boots on the ground, as people call them - labor is notorious for when they do endorse - for having people show up for volunteer doorbelling, doorbell blitzes. But other organizations weren't. And so I know that there is a definitely concerted effort by the King County Democrats to say, "You know what? We want our endorsements to matter. We're going to show up for candidates who we endorse. We're going to make sure that we make a difference in those races where we do endorse." so I think people are  realizing we can do more and we can do better. And there are certainly some organizations like those.  And then King County Democrats attempting to help their LDs to be more impactful in their local elections, especially in these municipal years, where these municipal races are mostly nonpartisan. It's not like legislative ones where you have a D and an R by the name. And if you don't know anyone, people just look to the D & R and generally make a decision off of that. They're just names. And people are trying to figure out who they are. And so that can really make some endorsements more impactful in the off-years, and volunteers more powerful to get word out to voters who just - they don't know anything about the candidates.  Heather Weiner: [00:35:27] Yeah, that's a great point. I think we're almost up with time and I want to make sure that we get to these letters from Tammy Morales. Crystal Fincher: [00:35:35] Well, yeah, and we'll be talking about them more in an upcoming show, but we're going to link them in the show notes. But these letters were - almost briefly referenced and excerpted very briefly - before in coverage. And I think people have heard the line from a letter from Ubax and from Bo Zhang saying, "We're done working for a dictator posturing as mayor. We're done feeling increasingly out of touch with communities of color. And we're done being women of color bearing a disproportionate emotional labor in our civilization's collective reckoning with our midlife (or is it our end of life?) crisis."  But they go in and talking about the toll - literally a quote - "For years, the two of us have witnessed firsthand the toll it takes inside City Hall when a Mayor is elected for - more for their conviction than for their curiosity. We might call this 'trickle-down politics': this mindset that if we just get a leader who believes what a majority of voters believe, the institution can do great things." But it takes more than that. It does more than that. So we'll link these letters, but they are certainly a lot to digest - making it very clear. There also is a letter talking about - an open letter to the people of Seattle from the participatory budgeting, Interdepartmental Team, or IDT. This is the team from within the City of Seattle that was working on this participatory budgeting process. Now we've heard a lot about - why is this delayed, what's going on? And, and the Council has been saying, the mayor is a problem here. And the mayor has been saying, I don't know, everything is fine. I don't know what the Council is talking about. It's probably their problem.  Meanwhile, turns out the mayor was prohibiting anyone else, from inside the City, including this team doing this work, from speaking to anyone except the mayor's office. And then what happened was the mayor's office - what they're saying - lied on the work that they did, misrepresented the work that they did, made it seem like they weren't doing much work. And it seemed like they were trying to torpedo the work of participatory budgeting. Obviously, we've heard about the role that the mayor's office has taken in trying to investigate the Black Brilliance Project - oddly, out of all the contracts in the City. But they said clearly - "As the employee of these departments, we're writing this letter for three reasons. One - to clarify that the contents of that letter - meaning the letter that the mayor's office sent - do not represent or reflect the work of the staff. Two - to call attention to the ways in which this process has harmed BIPOC and particularly the Black community and staff. And three - set forth terms in which we will be willing to continue supporting the participatory budgeting work so that it upholds race and social justice principles and begins to correct the harm that this process has caused." So it is really an indictment of the mayor's office, of the process that they've taken with this, of what seems like, you know, certainly misleading representation of the work that these teams have done - while publicly trying to act, trying to take credit for a process to bring more equity into budgeting and in the City and trying to harm past wrongs. So I hope people read these and understand these - and that there is accountability for this. Because, man, we take the word of other people really easily. Hey, if someone who we're used to seeing in power says, no, no, everything's fine. People generally parrot - hey, everything's fine. But you know, we have professionals whose job it is to do this work, who know what this is. Black women saying, this is a problem. We're coming together and risking ourselves to say this is a problem. And elsewhere there - it was reported that they were afraid of retaliation for their jobs. And certainly what looks like retaliation in the mayor's office right now for the whistleblowers who blew the whistle on the possible felonies committed in withholding the texts from being disclosed, and the deletion of texts from the mayor's office - that seems like a legitimate concern. So we'll include this. I hope people include them. I also thank you, everyone, for joining us in Hacks and Wonks today. I am just so thankful to Heather Weiner for joining us and being here.  Heather Weiner: [00:40:14] Thank you, Crystal, for including me. I love, love chatting with you. I wish we could do it for hours. And I just want to give a big shout out to City Councilwoman, Tammy Morales, for advocating on behalf of participatory budgeting. As she has said to me recently, this is about ceding power that has been hoarded within the top parts of government. And it's about ceding that power back to the community and letting the community decide where their own taxpayer money should go. And so participa - that is what participatory budgeting really means. Boy, that's hard to say  Crystal Fincher: [00:40:50] Yeah, it's a mouthful.  Heather Weiner: [00:40:52] Patici - pati - participatory.  Crystal Fincher: [00:40:55] Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks on this Friday, May 21, 2021. The producer of Hacks and Wonks is Lisl Stadler, and our wonderful co-host today was Seattle political consultant and urban farmer, Heather Weiner. You can find Heather on Twitter @hlweiner. You can find me on Twitter @finchfrii [spelled f-i-n-c-h-f-r-i-i] and now you can follow Hacks and Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts, just type “Hacks and Wonks” into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to get our Friday almost-live shows and our mid-week show delivered to your podcast feed. While you're there, leave a review! It really helps us out. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com, and in the podcast episode notes. Thanks for tuning in - talk to you soon. 

A dive into the song Flyin' High by Uriah Heep   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 11-2 Song: Flyin' High Air date: 5-21-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: John Lawton Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar: Trevor Boulder Drums, Vocals: Lee “The Bear” Kerslake Keyboards, Guitar, Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: I'm flyin' high And I know the reason why 'Cause the wind of change Has blown my way And you love me As much today as I love you Honey, as I love you   I used to think That love was all so strange There was something That I used to ease the pain Though at times It seems it hurts to touch It's never gonna hurt As much as no love at all Honey, as no love at all   Flyin' high, it's a crazy feeling Flyin' high 'Cause I've learnt the meaning of love Flyin' high it's a crazy feeling Flyin' high 'cause I believe in love   Flyin' high, it's a crazy feeling Flyin' high 'Cause I've learnt the meaning of love Flyin' high it's a crazy feeling Flyin' high 'cause I believe in love   I'm flyin' high And I guess I know the reason why 'Cause the wind of change Has blown my way And you love me As much today as I love you Honey, as I love you   I'm flyin high I'm flyin', flyin', flyin' I'm flyin high And I know the reason     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

A dive into the song Keep On Ridin' by Uriah Heep   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 11-1 Song: Keep On Ridin' Air date: 5-20-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: John Lawton Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar: Trevor Boulder Drums, Vocals: Lee “The Bear” Kerslake Keyboards, Guitar, Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: Keep on ridin' ...   By tomorrow morning At the early dawn I gotta hit the road So long lady Till another day, right now I gotta be movin' on There's another town and The singer needs a song   I know you're on your own I'll be back before too long I gotta do what I gotta do And you know how My heart loves to run, I gotta ride   Keep on ridin' Keep on ridin' now Keep on ridin   There's a city waiting And a railroad station Where my face is known And an old hotel That I know so well It's a little bit like home It's a situation Not of my own choosing And though a gamblin' man Would say that I was losing I started out to win   And I'll do it again I'm never givin' in 'Cause if it comes down To my heart, or to my pride I'm gonna ride   Keep on ridin', keep on ridin' Keep on ridin', yeah Keep on ridin', keep on ridin'   And I know you say I'm driftin', driftin' on a dream You'd better watch your step boy It may not be what it seems I just can't shake This feeling here inside This heart of mine Keeps tellin' me to ride, ride, ride   Keep on ridin' Keep on ridin' now Keep on ridin Keep on ridin' yeah Keep on ridin ...     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!       My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

A dive into the song Dance, Dance, Dance by Uriah Heep   Show website (http://www.scotthaskin.com/uriah_heep_podcast/)   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/UriahHeepPodcast   Twitter: @HeepPodcast   Instagram: @UriahHeepPodcast   Email: UriahHeepPodcast@gmail.com   Episode: 10-12 Song: Dance, Dance, Dance Air date: 5-18-2021   Performers: Lead Vocals: John Lawton Guitar: Mick Box Bass Guitar: Trevor Boulder Drums, Vocals: Lee “The Bear” Kerslake Keyboards, Guitar, Vocals: Ken Hensley   Lyrics: Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on dancing   Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on   Really ??? you're bad news I don't think I can hear it any more Mister please don't play me No more blues If you will I'll walk Right out the door   It's from the first touch Of morning light My feet can't wait to hit the floor 'Cause all I wanna do is Dance dance dance   Sure there's times when I've been feeling down But the blues are never here to stay Just by putting an my movie shoes I dance my troubles right away   I warned you so, right or wrong Anything to keep my heart alive 'Cause all I wanna do is Dance dance dance   Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on   Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on   It's a jumping jive My way around the world And you'll always see A smile upon my face The rhymin' times I don't think they'll matter I can make my home almost any place   I warned you so, right or wrong Anything to keep my heart alive 'Cause all I wanna do is Dance dance dance   Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on dancing Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on dancing Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on dancing Dance dance dance You've gotta keep on dancing     Thanks to: My Graphic Artist Scott Ladzinski www.Audionamix.com – I will not do a podcast without Instant Dialog Cleaner!   My friends in the #DeepDivePodcastNetwork: Nate and John at the Deep Purple Podcast (http://deeppurplepodcast.com/) The Simple Man at Skynnred Reconsydrd Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/skynyrd-reconsydyrd-podcast/id1448425288?mt=2) Terry T-Bone Mathley at TBone's Prime Cuts (https://www.tbpcpodcast.com/) Rhy at the Sabbath Bloody Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/sabbath-bloody-podcast/id1344032555?ign-mpt=uo%3D4&mt=2) Paul, Joe and David at the At The Lap of the Pods (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-lap-of-the-pods-queen-podcast/id1517814055)   Also, check out https://gottahearemall.com/ for well researched information on Deep Purple and Emmerson, Lake and Palmer/Powell   Check out Ace The Music Man on Stitcher here (https://www.stitcher.com/show/ace-the-music-man) Or YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszH87xfnXp-MfZNsUSFjtg)   #UriahHeep #UriahHeepTheBand #MickBox #KenHensley #DavidByron #LeeKerslake #PaulNewton #GaryThain #MarkClarke #LeeKerslake #KenHensley #AlexNapier #JohnLawton #JohnWetton #TrevorBoulder #PeterGoalby #BobDaisley #RussellGilbrook #DaveyRimmer #PhilLanzon #BernieShaw #LivingTheDream #HardRock #RockandRoll #TheWizard #LadyInBlack #EasyLivin #Stealin #DeepDivePodcastNetwork #DemonsandWizards #TheMagiciansBirthday

This week Erica C. Barnett joins Crystal to review further revelations in the mishandling of public records requests by Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan's office and the psychology of offering vaccination incentives. As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at officialhacksandwonks.com. Find the host, Crystal Fincher on Twitter at @finchfrii and find today's guest, Erica Barnett, at @ericacbarnett. More info is available at officialhacksandwonks.com. Resources: “Public records requests mishandled after Seattle mayor's texts went missing, commission finds” by Daniel Beekman: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/public-records-requests-were-mishandled-after-seattle-mayors-texts-went-missing-whistleblower-investigation-finds/ “Not just the mayor: Text messages of Seattle police and fire chiefs from June 2020 also missing” by Daniel Beekman and Lewis Kamb: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/not-just-the-mayor-text-messages-of-seattle-police-and-fire-chiefs-from-june-2020-also-missing/ “Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan had phone set to keep texts only 30 days, her office says” by Lewis Kamb and Daniel Beekman: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-mayor-jenny-durkan-had-phone-set-to-delete-texts-older-than-30-days/ “We asked for Mayor Jenny Durkan's text messages, and this is what we got” by Ashley Hiruko: https://www.kuow.org/stories/we-asked-for-jenny-durkan-s-text-messages-and-this-is-what-they-gave-us “Durkan Destroys 10 Months of Text Messages in Apparent Coverup” by Doug Trumm: https://www.theurbanist.org/2021/05/13/durkan-destroys-10-months-of-text-messages-in-apparent-coverup/ “Should Mayor Jenny Durkan Resign Over Those Missing Texts?” by Nathalie Graham: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2021/05/13/57321148/should-mayor-jenny-durkan-resign-over-those-missing-texts “Black researchers say Seattle Mayor's Office has undermined their work to help reimagine public safety” by Liz Brazile: https://www.kuow.org/stories/black-researchers-say-seattle-mayor-s-office-has-undermined-their-work-to-help-reimagine-public-safety “Seattle partners with businesses to offer COVID-19 vaccine incentives” by Christine Pae: https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/seattle-free-incentives-for-people-who-get-covid-19-vaccine/281-b2dce03d-f083-4f6a-9b24-1f1f176f5234   Transcript: Crystal Fincher: [00:00:00] Welcome to Hacks and Wonks. I'm your host, Crystal Fincher. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on politics in our state. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes. And if you like the show, please throw in a great review. We really appreciate that and it helps the show. Today, we're continuing our Friday almost-live shows where we review the news of the week. Welcome back to the program friend of the show and today's co-host: Seattle political reporter, editor of PubliCola and author of Quitter: A Memoir of Drinking, Relapse, and Recovery, Erica Barnett. Erica Barnett: [00:00:53] Thanks, Crystal. Great to be here. Crystal Fincher: [00:00:55] Great to have you back. So we've had a little bit of news this week. When we talked last Friday with you folks - when I was talking with Marcus Harrison Green - news about a whistleblower complaint that had been filed had just broke about 12 hours before. And we were just beginning to learn about the details of the news of, evidently, missing texts from the mayor's office and intentionally not being responsive to public records requests. We've since learned a lot more about the details behind those missing texts. And it looks like this was an intentional action and very problematic. What have we learned about this? Erica Barnett: [00:01:40] Well, a couple things since last week and one thing that was reported by the Seattle Times, I believe, just yesterday. Both of the records request officers who filed this whistleblower complaint initially are no longer working for the mayor's office. One stepped down and the other was put on administrative leave in an action that many are interpreting as retaliatory. Sure looks that way to me. And, I mean, the basics are that 10 months of texts from, to and from - the mayor herself, Mayor Durkan herself, the Fire Chief Harold Scoggins, and then Police Chief Carman Best - disappeared. And the mayor's office is saying that it was because of some sort of technical glitch. Those 10 months, of course, included the period of protest, the period when the East Precinct was abandoned by the Seattle Police Department, and just probably the biggest, you know, news weeks of last year. There are no texts available from any of those really relevant and involved public officials for that period. Crystal Fincher: [00:02:50] Well, and this is just mind-boggling. One, the length of time that this covers. And two, this actually looks like it's an intentional action. It is hard to see how this wasn't an intentional hiding or destruction of records. Jenny Durkan's a former US Attorney. She's intimately familiar with the law and with requirements for preserving communications and evidence. This is not someone who's a novice and had also been in a - I don't know how to characterize it - a warning action in relation to another issue that her office had - even had to take a refresher course on disclosures. What in the world! She knows how to maintain this. And it came out that she had changed a setting, or setting on her city-issued phone was set to destroy texts after one month. And that's not the default setting. You have to change that setting. Erica Barnett: [00:03:52] I don't even know how to do that, to be honest. I mean, I have texts going back to, you know, 2016 on my phone, which I probably got in 2016. So I - yeah, that is something that takes some doing. Crystal Fincher: [00:04:05] Yeah. So someone who should be more knowledgeable than just about anyone else from her profession and certainly touted her skills and qualifications when running for office - now wants us to believe that she doesn't know that she somehow accidentally, very coincidentally, somehow changed the setting on the phone to destroy texts after a month that she knew needed to be maintained. And now we're just supposed to not question, and deal with the aftermath, and let her seemingly retaliate against employees who brought this to light - that this is actually potentially a crime. Erica Barnett: [00:04:47] Yeah, it's potentially a felony to destroy this information and what's also - I mean, first of all, the issue of not destroying communications has been around for a very long time. I covered it in 2003 with emails from the City Council and that was addressed at the time. There is ample training at the City. I mean, the lowest level city employee knows you don't just go around deleting your text messages and deleting your emails. But what's really kind of frustrating about this for, from a media perspective, is the Seattle Times can probably sue for these records if they want to because they have, compared to everybody else, fairly infinite resources - they've got lawyers. But if they don't do that, we're just - I certainly can't sue for all the texts that I was denied over the years, because it costs money and because I don't have any standing to demand them at this point. And that is true of any member of the public, who sought messages during that time period too, which I'm sure there are many, because there was tons of speculation about who shut down the East Precinct, who gave orders to do various things - tear gas, blast balls - was this coming directly from the top? And all that information is, as it pertains to the mayor's phone, is gone. And the only way to really get it is a subpoena in a lawsuit at this point, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, unless they were retained somewhere at the City level, and unless the mayor's office decides to release them right now. So the problem - our records law is very strong, but it's also very fragile, because it depends on, to a certain extent, the goodwill of people who are obliged to follow it. And if they decide not to follow it, it takes some doing to force them to do so. Crystal Fincher: [00:06:46] It does. And you bring up, with this issue of accountability - okay, there is a law, there is potentially a felony that's been committed. Do we care to look into it? Is there a method for that? We have to rely on a private entity to bring a lawsuit, as you said it appears at this time, in order to do that. Or we have to rely on other people within the system to hold them accountable. Now, whistleblowers certainly did their part. We appreciate them standing up for a process and the rule of law and saying, Hey, we're aware of something that is potentially illegal and wrong, and we want to do this. We hope they are protected against retaliation. It is very concerning that one of them has been placed on administrative leave. And that certainly is consistent with other reports that we've heard from employees, including one covered in a KUOW report this past week about the participatory budgeting process, where other employees have raised an alarm saying, Hey, we feel pressure to go along with a program and processes and dictates from the mayor's office that we feel are misrepresenting our work or that are not completely forthright and honest. And if we don't go along, we are afraid of retaliation. We've heard that theme, we've seen people leave. You even covered some of that - I was reading one of your Twitter threads talking about how some people feel like they don't have the freedom or ability to do their jobs in communications roles. And they feel like there's no longer a place for them, because they are not able to, in good conscience, or to do their jobs. Erica Barnett: [00:08:34] Well, yeah, and they - I mean, the thing with the communications folks is everything from the very beginning - everything has had to be micromanaged by this mayor's office. And so just the Twitter thread you're referring to - just getting the absolute most basic or technical information from departments has required this long process where everything has to go through several staffers at the mayor's office, several kind of comms people - who pretty it up and doctor it up and make it tell a positive story, no matter what it is. I mean, even just the most mundane stuff that I asked for. And so you get these emails back that are in like five different fonts, 'cause they've gone through five different people. Well, it's like, well, can I just have the answer to my question? 'Cause all I actually wanted to know is - what is the length of this bike lane or whatever it may be. And yeah, it's been - I mean, it would almost be comical, except that it's frustrating because a lot of times you don't actually get the answer that you were originally asking for 'cause everything has to be processed through so many layers of people. Crystal Fincher: [00:09:43] Yeah, and I think it's important for people to know, who may not be familiar with the process of getting information from government, that that is not normal. That is not usual. And that is not just a result of, Oh, this is just a different administration and people are unhappy with the policies, so they're finding things to nitpick about. This was not the case with Murray or with McGinn or with - Erica Barnett: [00:10:08] Or even Nickels. Yeah, even though Nickels had a very tight shop - you could call the deputy mayor and the deputy mayor would call you back. That is not the case for me. I mean, I'm sure it's certainly the case for the Seattle Times, which has given, frankly, over the years, quite a lot of flattering coverage to the mayor. They're doing great work as well, but there's a question of access. And that access just simply does not exist for the likes of me, or for adversarial media in general. Crystal Fincher: [00:10:40] Right. And just the control of information from departments where - before you could call up SDOT and ask a question, a fairly basic question, "Hey, why are we doing this change on this street?" and get an answer. Where now, all of that kind of communication is routed through the mayor's office. They have been told not to answer. That that answer - that that question needs to go to the mayor's office and only they can answer. And who they choose to answer and how they choose to answer has been completely inconsistent. And the answers that they give have not always been the truth. And now, as we are uncovering more, seems like they were hiding a lot of information and it's certainly concerning. Then also concerning is - so what happens now? And so we have seen some candidates - one in particular, Jessyn Farrell, came out with a statement, "Hey, you know what, this basically, this - we need to elect a mayor who will follow the rules. And so, we need to elect someone like me, who will just follow the rules." And that was met with a lot of people saying, "Hey, with all due respect, it is great. We definitely want to elect someone who will follow the rules, but we want people, we want the policy and the rules to actually mean something. So if someone breaks them, the answer isn't just to say, 'Aw, man, that's really sad. I guess we have to go with someone else.' It's to hold that person accountable. So what are we going to do with Durkan? Are you calling for her resignation or not? What is the role of accountability?" And then even from the Council perspective, I believe, Council President Lorena González has talked about creating a new office or system to handle disclosures and to wrap more - I say bureaucracy and sometimes that has a negative connotation - but to stand up an administrative authority to more independently handle disclosures. Which may turn out to be great - I am not intimately familiar with those details yet. I'm sure we'll have more, but a lot of people said, "That's well and fine, but what are we doing with Durkan? Are you calling for her resignation? How are we holding Durkan accountable for breaking these rules?" And it just seemed like people skipped over that fact. And like we just really haven't talked about - a felony was potentially committed in the mayor's office. This actually is not a partisan issue at all, aside from the fact that most people in Seattle identify as Democrats. This is just a really simple process. Anyone who has worked in government, been adjacent to government, understands how overt the disclosure process and awareness is. Some people who may be further away from this, they're like, "Big deal. I delete texts all the time. Like how - why is someone going to save a text that's years old? I have deleted mine." When the culture of government is the preservation of records and being hyper-aware that everything that is going on is potentially disclosable to the public. And frankly, people are very careful about what they say in emails and texts because of that. Because they're so aware of that. So to act like that's not a big deal - she may not have known, changed a setting accidentally - just flies in the face of logic and reason, and is not believable at all. And it's really concerning - we were making national news daily during that time - for decisions that were made and not having questions and orders given to SPD, that were then seemingly ignored, and asked, "Hey, why - if you said don't use tear gas and then they're using tear gas. And you're just like, 'I don't know. Are they - are they using tear - I don't know what's happening.'" We have to be able to hold our leaders accountable for how they govern. This is a major element of how we make that possible. And to intentionally subvert that - I really do think there needs to be real questions. Is this something that other people who are candidates or who were on the City Council - do they feel like this is worthy of holding someone accountable? Do we not? I think - Erica Barnett: [00:14:52] Yeah. Crystal Fincher: [00:14:52] - we just saw Trump and the problem with not holding people accountable. Erica Barnett: [00:14:55] Well, and what is so bad about this - the mayor is not running for reelection. I think there is - it's debatable whether this is a resignation-level offense. That's pretty - if indeed a felony was committed and all of that. But beyond that - first of all, accountability means owning up to what you did. And, personally, I'll just say - my personal opinion is, I'm not calling, just personally, for the mayor to resign. I think she should say what happened and be honest about it, instead of sort of giving all these defensive responses, frankly, about how they didn't do anything wrong and it was all an accident, because that is not believable. But in a long-term sense, it really speaks to public trust of institutions and of government, and of city government in particular, when you just have no idea if the government is being honest with you. And I am one of those people - I just somewhat naively believed that public disclosure officers - well actually, this part I don't think is naive - public disclosure officers generally are very interested in providing you the information. And as we've seen with these whistleblowers, they were dogged about it in a lot of cases, but ultimately elected officials and department heads and people in departments have the ability to hide stuff from the public. I mean, they just do. And so we can't go down that road where they feel empowered to do that. And we also can't go down the road where - even if this is a one-mayor kind of situation, the public just doesn't trust the City anymore to tell them the truth about things. And I think that is the long-term risk here - is once Durkan's out of office in a few months, that the public simply doesn't believe that the mayor and City Council are accountable and are telling them the truth about what's going on at the City. Crystal Fincher: [00:17:02] Yeah, I would agree with that. And whether or not Durkan resigns or people call for that, I think that there is much more of a responsibility and obligation that the City has to get to these texts, to exhaust every option, and to have or hire an independent entity who is capable of getting at this, and not to force a private entity to sue - the Times could do it, a number of the TV stations could probably do it, or consortium of them. If it comes down to that, I hope that would be the case and people would pursue that action. It seems like there is - that's a very worthy effort and there's a lot of newsworthy information and a lot of questions that would be answered by getting access to those texts. But I do think that the city has an obligation to get to the bottom of this, and we can't skip over that and start working on a new bureaucracy without first saying, How do we actually address this problem? How do we look at how existing policies are contributing to this problem or not? Maybe the issue is that there just is not enough of an incentive or disincentive to not hide information. And people just don't feel like there's any penalty for that. So why not do it? Let's make it painful if someone's going to do that - politically, policy-wise sanctioned painful, not physically painful. These days I always feel the need to clarify that. But certainly we'll be continuing to pay attention to this - quite the issue, quite the conundrum that the City finds itself in. And I just hope we can get to these texts and get the answers to these big questions that we've been asking for a year now and still don't have an answer to. Another issue in the City and that we're facing overall, I guess, is two questions. One, reopening the state. And then, the status of vaccine and vaccine incentives. And we're at the point now where vaccine supply is appearing to exceed demand, but that doesn't mean that there is no demand. And that doesn't mean that everyone is still vaccinated. There are lots of people who are not fully vaccinated, still looking for shots. We're just on the front end of having drop-in and pop-up clinics, which a lot of people need - who can't schedule around a job, or need childcare, and need more flexibility in when they can make it to get vaccinated - that certainly has been a barrier for people I know. So we're still making our way through this, but there's also a significant portion of the population who is hesitant to get a vaccine for one reason or another. And the use of incentives, whether it's a free Krispy Kreme donut, or a free beer, or some free tickets, has become popular, has been in some people's view effective. A lot of people are like, "Hey, whatever it takes to get someone to take a vaccine, let's do it." You have looked at this and thought about this and it's like, are we - is this the most productive way to go about this? How have you viewed this? Erica Barnett: [00:20:23] Well, look. I certainly agree. I mean, if the difference between somebody not getting a vaccine and getting a vaccine is a beer for a dollar, which I think is about the best that breweries can offer because of some obscure liquor law or other, I mean, okay. But to me - is that a rational - first of all, is that a rational response to a public health emergency, but also, Yeah, my reaction to it, just kind of emotionally and as a person and as a citizen of a society, is like, Dude, you don't have to get a cookie when you go to the dentist's office. You don't have to - you don't demand free tickets to a Mariners game for getting your annual checkup. And this is like, this is literally just basic healthcare. It's getting your vaccine the same way you get your flu shot hopefully every year. And it's also benefiting all the people around you. So I personally traveled, drove down to Federal Way - I'm very fortunate 'cause I work my own hours and I could afford to spend the time - drove down to Federal Way, got my first shot 'cause it was hard to get shots at the time. It got a little easier by the time I got my second one. But I don't think we should encourage, in general, a culture where we have to pat people on the head and call them a good boy to do the most basic - to brush their teeth essentially. I mean, that said, sure, if ice cream gets you out - great. I think that the fact that we live in a society, and the fact that you don't want to die, and you don't want your grandmother to die, and you don't want strangers to die, and maybe strangers who can't get the vaccine for various health reasons - that should be incentive enough. And the idea - it's a minor thing, ultimately. Because it's fine - if Husky Deli wants to give away ice cream, go for it. But I find it kind of silly and disheartening that that's apparently what it takes for people to do their basic civic duty. Crystal Fincher: [00:22:35] Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at this and ideally, absolutely. But what should be and what is are two very, very different things, in the same way that, you know, it's like, Hey, just like you go to the dentist. I think you might be surprised by how many people don't go to the dentist for a variety of reasons. Erica Barnett: [00:22:54] Sure. Crystal Fincher: [00:22:54] Some of it is just, Uh, I just haven't gotten around to it. Some of it is cost and access. Some of it is they had very painful experience. Like there's a lot that goes into how people interact, specifically with the healthcare system. And for a lot of things, there are a lot of - it seems like civic duty in one area, absolutely. And I'm fully vaccinated. I participated in a vaccine trial that I'm still in. And so clearly I would hope that people would do that. But I also understand that some people have not - a significant percentage of the population has not. And given that this is a public health issue, and we are relying on most people to do it, and our safety is in numbers, and that we're having trouble with those numbers, that we are at the point where anything helps because that is actually making the rest of us safer. And I also want to acknowledge, we look a lot at individual actions. And as a society, I think we are conditioned to look at an individual and how their actions impact others. But I think that we are - we cannot overlook how poorly as a public health administration and bureaucracy overall, most things about this pandemic - the vaccine, masking, you name it - have been communicated. Erica Barnett: [00:24:21] For sure. Crystal Fincher: [00:24:22] They've done a poor job overall. And we know that impacts how people perceive this. We know that, Hey, this is with the mRNA vaccine - it's been touted in news coverage as, Hey, this is brand new and this is the fastest ever, which if that is not messaged consistently and carefully, and people are not consistently educated, and messaging is very consistent and strong - that people are going to think, Oh, this is a brand new vaccine that, you know, just was rushed out. Why should I take this? Erica Barnett: [00:24:51] But here's the thing. I feel like - what I would really love to do is just have an exit interview at all of these places where you go to a brewery where people are getting vaccinated, then sitting around for a couple of hours and drinking a beer, and ask them why they didn't want to get vaccinated before. And my guess - this is just a hypothesis that I would love to test - is that they would not say it's because I am low-income and I didn't have, or I have a job that didn't grant me access to, during regular working hours, I couldn't get out to get the vaccine. Or like I had a problem with an mRNA vaccine, and then I got this beer and decided it was okay. I mean, I just wonder, and I really wanna know - who it is that is responding to an incentive that is worth a few dollars. And who is still not getting vaccinated for all these other reasons that you mentioned that are, that I totally get. But I just think if you're going to drive out of your way in the middle of the day to go get an ice cream, and wait in the line, and sit and eat the ice cream, like, I don't know. I would be curious to know if all of the sort of disadvantage-related demographic issues and whatever apply in that case. Or is it a bunch of guys who don't like to get a shot because they've never kind of been forced to do things like that in their life. I don't know. I don't know. It's just my hypothesis is that it is not, by and large, people who lack access or information. Crystal Fincher: [00:26:33] Yeah.... Erica Barnett: [00:26:34] I could be totally wrong. Crystal Fincher: [00:26:35] I - you know, I don't know that it's access, especially now that we are providing wider access. I think that there certainly are - have been issues around people's work, and childcare, and just being able to get there at times that certainly appointments were a hindrance to. And there has been some data collected on that elsewhere. I think the biggest issue that we have is vaccine hesitancy and people are trying to add an incentive to say, Okay, some people are hesitant because they're just - they just are unsure that this is safe for whatever reason. I think that there is a lot of information that people can access to be clear, to have confidence for that. The groups that have been tested - it is widely and broadly looked at as safe, certainly in comparison to getting COVID - that taking the vaccine seems like a much safer route to go than getting COVID. But I also think that there's a number of people and there has been, at least covered in some study of this, and particularly talking about among healthcare workers who were hesitant initially to get the vaccine - that after seeing a number of people get it, you know, now people usually have friends and family members who they've seen get it. They haven't keeled over. And, you know, like we aren't all turning into 5G robots and tauntauns - that people are okay. So now it's just like an extra kick and incentive to get it out. Is that getting most people over the hump? I don't know. I always think it's useful to do exit interviews and to collect data, so I hope that's happening everywhere regardless. I also understand that resources are an issue in that. And so who has the ability to stand that up and collect that in a reliable way is always a question of funding and capacity, but I don't have a problem with it. If we're throwing that on, just trying to do anything it takes to get more people vaccinated - particularly after the news that we just got from the CDC yesterday, that not only are they saying, Eh, you don't need masks anymore in public in outdoor spaces if you are vaccinated. But hey, indoor spaces - if you've been vaccinated, most indoor spaces were also fine. And guidance rapidly changing for that also. And what that means in terms of the potential for the spread of the virus now, especially since we still have variants going around. We are still in a pandemic, we're making our way out of it, but we're still in one. So it'll be interesting to see how this proceeds. I think you bring up some good points and like - it is a shame that we are here. Erica Barnett: [00:29:15] Yeah, and I just very quickly, I think this also might be a bit of a hangover from all the sort of stories about, Well, why do people vote for Trump? I don't know. Let's go interview 900 more people in the Midwest. And it's like, well, ultimately, I mean, we have an answer. We have answers to this question. We don't need to keep asking it. And we know why some people don't get the vaccine and it's because they believe in 5G and because they think it's - I mean, my parents will not get the vaccine because they think it's doing something to their DNA. And so I know people who are not, in fact most of my family, is not getting vaccinated for various reasons. And it's - so this is very close to home for me, but it's also the case that I don't ask them about it anymore. There's no incentive that's going to get a certain percentage of the population to vaccinate. And so I, so I feel like it's a little bit like asking Trump voters why they voted for Trump. I mean, we know why most people voted for Trump and there's people on the margins that we can convince otherwise and we can get to get vaccinated. And I agree with you. I mean, ultimately any incentive is fine. I just, I just personally find it a little bit silly. Crystal Fincher: [00:30:24] I got it. And I appreciate the conversation and your perspective. I thank all of you for listening to Hacks and Wonks on this Friday, May 14th, 2021. The producer of Hacks and Wonks is Lisl Stadler and our wonderful co-host today was Seattle political reporter and founder of PubliCola,. Erica Barnett. You can find Erica on Twitter @ericacbarnett, that's Erica with a C and on publicola.com. You can buy her book Quitter: A Memoir of Drinking, Relapse, and Recovery. You can find me on Twitter @finchfrii, spelled f-i-n-c-h-f-r-i-i. And now you can follow Hacks and Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar, be sure to subscribe to get our Friday almost-live shows and our mid-week show delivered to your podcast feed. While you're there, leave a review, it really helps us out. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com and in the podcast episode notes. Thanks for tuning in and we'll talk to you next time.

Ep 39. This was a silly one. I talked to my friend Pow for an experimental (hopefully recurring?) segment called "Thicc Wisconsin Accent," where we analyze how comedy hits different coming from different corners of the US. We watched John Mulaney's 2018 Netflix special, John Mulaney: Kid Gorgeous at Radio City. DSitF is hosted by James Hillmer (IG: @jdhillmer). Music by: @chrishellking and cover art by @memorybloomstudio 1. Always punch up 2. Keep swinging