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A conversation with Dr Anton Howes about The Royal Society of Arts, cultural factors that drive innovation, and many aspects of historical innovation. Anton is a historian of innovation whose work is expansive, but focuses especially on England in the 18th and 19th centuries as a hotbed of technological creativity. He recently released an excellent book that details the history of the Royal Society of Arts called “Arts and Minds: How the Royal Society of Arts Changed a Nation” and he publishes an excellent newsletter at Age of Invention. Notes Aton on Twitter: @AntonHowes Arts and Minds: How the Royal Society of Arts Changed a Nation - Anton's Book Age of Invention - Anton's Newsletter The referenced post about Dungeons and Dragons We don't dig too much into the content of the book because Anton talked about it on other podcasts. He gives a good overview in this one. How much did a steam engine cost in today's dollars, these sources suggest it was roughly $100k , but as anton noted - it's complicated. Transcript (Rough+Experimental)  Ben: the place that I I'd love to start is the,society of arts did something that I feel like people don't discuss very much, which is focused on,  inventions that have positive externalities. So you, you talk a lot about how they, they would promote,Inventions that maybe people,couldn't make a lot of money off of they weren't going to patent. , and it's one of the few examples I've seen in history of like non-government forces really promoting,inventions with positive externalities. And so I was wondering , if you see that.  how could we get more of that today? And like, if there were other [00:02:00] things doing similar work at the time and maybe how that theme has like moved forward in time. Anton: Yeah. That's really interesting question. I'm trying to off the top of my head, think of any examples of other non-governmental ones. I suspect there's quite a few from that period, though, just for the simple reason that. I mean the context in which the society of arts and emerges right, is at a time when you have a very capable state, but a state that doesn't do very much. Right? So one of the, one of the things you see throughout it is actually the society kind of creating what you might call the sorts of institutions that States now take upon themselves all the time, voting positive externalities as you, as you, which is a very good way of putting it. , you know, Trying to identify inventions that the market itself wouldn't ordinarily provide. , later on in the night in the mid 19th century, trying to proper state into providing things [00:03:00] like public examinations or, you know, providing those things privately before you have a state education system. But I think one of the main reasons for that is that you don't really have that kind of role being taken up by the central state. Right. I mean, the other thing to bear in mind here of course, is that a lot of governance actually happens at the local level. And so when we talk about the government, we really mean the central government, but actually a lot of stuff would be, is happening, you know, amongst the, kind of the towns and cities. It seems with that written privileges, the various borrowers with their own often quite bizarre privileges and like the way they were structured,local authorities for want of a better word, although they kind of. Take all sorts of different forms. And I think you do see quite a lot of it. It's just, it wasn't all done by a single organization at the time. So I think that's kind of the main underlying context there. Ben: Yeah. And so I guess sort of riffing on that. , one thing that I was wondering, as I, as I read through the book was like, why don't we see [00:04:00] more of that sort of like non central, central state,Positive externality promoting work done. Now, like you think of philanthropy and it doesn't quite have that same flavor anymore. And I wonder like do, like, my bias would be, would be to think that sort of,there's almost like a crowding out by the centralized state now that people sort of expect that. , and I was wondering like, do you. W w how do you think of it, perhaps there's some crowding out. I mean, the interesting thing, right, is that Britain has actually kind of interesting in that it has quite a lot of these bottom up institutions. Whereas across the rest of Europe, you actually see quite a few top-down ones. Right? So I discussed in the book that there is actually not one, but two French societies of arts, sociology. Those are there's even a third one, which still exists, which is a kind of a later much later one from, I think the late 1938, early 19th, late [00:05:00] 18th, early 19th centuries. , part of the, kind of catch up with Britain project that Napoleon and others start pursuing,But yeah, you have a lot of these princely institutions, ones that depend on particular figures to be their patrons,to promote them,to, you know, provide a meeting space for them to provide them with funds, to provide up, to, to fund anyone who's doing fellowship of that, of that kind. Whereas in Britain, you seem to get basically those stuff that doesn't get funded by the particular patrons, even when they're promised that funding like the Royal society, which they always hoped we'd get some kind of government or, you know, some funds from Charles the second or something never does. , it obviously gets support that, you know, he gives them a Royal base that they can have on the table in front of them when they have that discussions. But that's about it. And the society of arts I guess, is, has to be set up because you have that lack of. , you have that lab because of state support. , I mean, what's interesting is I guess in certain [00:06:00] complex contexts, you do get state funding of these sorts of institutions. The Dublin society becomes the Royal Dublin society, but that one actually does get state funding as part of the kind of compact try and get Ireland to catch up with, with, with Britain in terms of its economy, same with Scotland, the society Scottish society of improvers does eventually get. I guess morphed into what becomes the Scottish board of trustees for fisheries and manufacturers, probably full title one. , so organizations like that, I guess become state ones. I mean, the idea that there, the fact that they're quite uncommon though, is, is interesting. And I wonder if Britain was just a bit better sometimes that they're organizing these things and keeping them going. , the Dublin society is. An outlier. So there's the society of arts. You see lots of these patriotic societies set up to emulate the society of arts across Europe, but very, [00:07:00] very few of them,assisted I think by the 1850s, the only one, like they're pretty much, refounded a bunch of them as kind of discussion clubs. And then since then, I think the only real one to keep going was it's the one on Malta for summary, bizarre reason. , I've kind of forgotten the original question now I've kind of gone. So, so the original question was just around,like why almost like why aren't there more,nongovernmental organizations sort of devoted to promoting,these positive externalities. Like that's, that's sort of the big question I have. So I guess my answer there is partially that. It seems as though if you did have crowding out it was happening just as much then, or at least had that potential. Right? Cause you have these Nobles who could be the patrons. You have the King, who could be the patron. , although potentially you're right in that, because British Monex worth giving their patronage. You end up with these actually ironically more robust institutions because they're [00:08:00] much more broad based and bottom up. Yeah. Being formed and then surviving. So perhaps it's the case that because we just expect the government to do it and the government's extremely rich and actually does give lots of money for lots of different things. We just say, well, it's easier to, just to kind of persuade a politician, to get some money set aside for a new agency in much the same way that you know, today Britain is trying to set up an ARPA. , I think just announced a few weeks ago. , because once the idea gets,enough currency, as long as you can persuade the panels that be the, maybe it's actually quite straightforward to do it. The reason I ask is actually based on something that, that Jomo cure has pointed out, which is how,Kind of like the federalisation of innovation makes it much more robust. , I'm sure you've seen the, the,sort of like the contrast between like the Chinese state. , and then how, like, in, in Europe, comer, [00:09:00] Copernicus could like go, go between Patriot to patron until they found someone who would actually support him. , and so I always wonder about like having multiple sources of innovation and like how to have that happen. , so that was that's, that's sort of something that, that I'm, I'm always thinking about. , I guess you could say that that's, that's present right on the European level. Certainly the big question then is why is it that you don't get it happening in other fractured States? , I think a very neglected part of the case thesis, right? Is that yes, fractured States is one thing, but the other half of that, of the, of the puzzle there is also having a kind of common culture. Yeah. Even if that's. Completely kind of invented right with Swedes who presumably is descended from whatever bar area, really fat calling themselves, you know, Albertus Magnus or, or, or whatever, you know, people who are certainly not Latin from, you know, in [00:10:00] any kind of. I guess ethics sense claiming a Latin heritage or Greek or Latin heritage for themselves. , I guess bricks as well. Right? , many of whom are probably Anglo, Anglo, Saxon, Germanic Anglo-Saxons or, or, or pre Roman council something. , you know, John D is actually referring to himself as the artist know. But, but that, that, that common language, you know, having a lingua franca, French of Latin then of French, and then I guess more, more recently of English having that common set of assumptions, you know, the Republic of letters. Wasn't just about the fact that you could, as a stop gap or safety valve move somewhere, that could be a bit more promising. , I think it's also very much, it very much requires that extra step, whether or not you have had in other places is, is debatable. Right. I think kit mentions, you know? Yes. Career in Japan and next to China, but they don't [00:11:00] quite have the common culture. So even though some Chinese intellectuals will move to Japan there, they get kind of forgotten neglected. It's a really good point. And I had, I appreciate you. You. Bringing up that neglected part. And so it's like then,actually this is a great segue into another thing I wanted to ask you about. , it's like, so we're, we're in the middle of the coronavirus and you've done a lot of work on sort of like the virality of,of innovation itself,and the ideas like that. And,and so. In contrast, it feels like there's a contrast between,sort of the, the industrial revolution where it seemed like people really would,see someone innovating on something and then take it on themselves to start doing something similar. , and then today you see something like Elon Musk doing something awesome, but then you don't see that many people. Replicating that. , and [00:12:00] do you have a sense of the what's what's different or whether I'm,basically that on like some false assumptions that makes sense, like, like, or just generally, how could we,have more of that innovation vitality? I mean, I think a lot of people probably are inspired by people like Musk. , the way in which they're inspired, I guess is debatable. , you do, I think it's important to have. Invention figureheads. If you like people who you can aspire to copy when it comes to improvement, when it comes to tinkering, when it comes to invention, I guess one of the problems with a figure like Musk is that he seems unaware, reachable or unobtainable, right? There's a kind of level of connectedness and wealth. That seems almost like a starting point before you can even. Get us starting the sorts of projects that [00:13:00] he does or involved himself with. And I think that's potentially harmful. And that it kind of, it's some idea I keep coming back to actually, which is that there's the, the myth of the genius inventor is on the one hand. Good. Because people aspire to be like them. But on the other hand, it can be quite damaging if it seems as though. You have to be born with that a couple lucky enough to just be, be a genius of that. , and that I think is very problematic,because that's not a tall, what we see, I think in the 18th century. And it's certainly not what we see in the 19th century, which is this idea. I articulated that you could be anybody in any past station of life. Right? The Samuel smiles self-help mantra is you can be dirt poor. And, you know, a minor or something in, in, in, in,in the Northeast, someone like George Stevenson and yet through the sheer force of [00:14:00] self-education and. Adopting that improving mindset, you can do great things. Yeah. , and so one of the reasons I quite like improvement as an idea, versus like, as something broader like innovation or invention, is that it has that kind of sense of marginality, that sense of tinkering, that sense of, you know, just doing a little bit to make things a bit better. Which can often have very outsized effects. So a problem with a figurehead, like Musk, I think is that it's like, Oh my God. Yeah. Where do you even start? If I said, if I say it, whereas I think if you can construct a narrative false or not, I think that's actually relevant here. Right. But if you construct a narrative where. It's simply through hard work, a bit of, a bit of hard work and just tinkering around the edges and then keeping on optimizing until you get something really great. That's much more accessible. And I think it also [00:15:00] happens to be true. Right. I think, I think that happens to be true that occasionally certain bundles of improvements with these huge outsize effects can make people extremely rich, extremely famous, and then it kind of spirals from there for certain people. But I think focusing on those initial stories is one of the reasons why, you know, I think, I think the Victorian narratives ended up being so effective, perhaps even had an actual impact on inspiring more people to go in and do that, that sort of thing. And that's actually something that,I've, I've comfortably been thinking about, which is the sorts of things that can be tinkered with and improved now feel different than the sorts of things that could be tinkered and improved in the 19th century. Right. So it's like you look at. , like you could actually like tinker with what was sort of the cutting edge technology, right? Like you could tinker with, [00:16:00] , like railroad brakes or you could tinker with,like sailing apparatus, but it's now harder. It's like, you can't really go like tinker with,like a fusion reactor in the same way. , and. Do you think there's something to that? Or like, like that, that, that contrast, I think perhaps there is something in the mid 19th century. You've got this focus, I guess, on. I'm trying to make some of these instruments, more accessible things like a sort of study of arts gets involved with things like having cheap microscopes that you can send out to working men's colleges, mechanics, institutions, all over the country so that people can then use these things and then make new discoveries, or at least know how they work. , you know, the closest thing we have to that now, I guess it's like something like the raspberry PI, you know, these very simple things that you can start tinkering away around [00:17:00] with. , and I guess, you know, maybe in certain respects you want as much as possible to make. Not, not even necessarily knowledge, but to make invention more accessible, you need the materials to become more and more accessible. Having said that if you think of something like the rust free pipe, that is a very complicated piece of machinery that is now available to school kids,that would be like, you know, in the 18th century taking, you know, a watch or something, something extremely complicated and being like, yeah, how the go, you know, like take this apart and do what you will. , you know, these are things,they certainly come down in price so the time, but they're still. They're not cheap to tinker with. I mean, you mentioned, you mentioned shipping, you know, doing any kind of tinkering with a ship is actually extremely expensive. I mean, it's in the 18th century, that's very much on par with trying to tinker with a jet fighter today in terms of the relative cost of it, you know? So, well, let me, let me push back against that a little bit, which is that. It at least like I've, I've never,like actually like built a [00:18:00] ship, but it seems like it's a little bit more modular, right? Like, like you could say, like tinker with the steering wheel of the ship without,necessarily affecting like the whole, whereas. There's, it's not really possible to like the jet fighter is so integrated that I'm not sure how much you could tinker with like, maybe that the instrument panel, but I'm like, that's it. Or it's like, you could, you could tinker with a sale, a sale design. , but you can't really tinker with the engine of a jet fighter. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I guess something like the steam engine is kind of similar there where most of the time, most of the improvements you make probably involve redesigning the whole. And there are a few, obviously exceptions to that, but you know, something like in reaching the separate condense that [00:19:00] does require actually changing the way it works, the same with Marine engines, you know, the kind of much lighter, smaller engines that you can use on boats, because they're trying to make these things as small as possible light as possible, at least the same with high pressure engines. , I guess, yeah, those, those do require a big upfront cost. And yet what's astonishing now, I guess it's still that you have a lot of people. From all sorts of backgrounds, still, somehow managing to, to make their improvements to it. Model scale, perhaps not at full scale, but then using a model to show the principles and then getting it built at a much larger, much larger way. Actually, I'm not sure if you know this off the top of your head, but like, do you have a sense of how much a steam engine. Costs in term, in, in the 19th century. But in terms of today's money, not off the top of my head, that'd be real. I'd be just like interested in like, [00:20:00] even like order of magnitude, right? Like, would it be like, like 10,000 pounds or a hundred thousand or a million, right. Like. I mean, it depends how you measure these things a lot of the time as well. But if I have the figure to hand, it it'd be a bit easier, but yeah. Cause you can make it to things later. I'll look it up. Yeah. Stick it in the link. Yeah. But there's different ways of measuring it as well. Right. So just the real cost doesn't actually tell you very much because the basket of goods changes so dramatically over time, the labor cost maybe tells you a bit, but then it's probably it's relative to the average. Wage, which is like the labor is wage very often and not, you know, if you're, if you're a middle class in the 18th century, you were actually pretty damn rich. If you're upper class, you'll extremely rate unimaginably wealthy. , and if you're not, then you're extremely, then you're very, very poor. , like the levels of inequality at the time seeing was unfathomable today, I think,Even when we talk about Nicole T increasing, it's really the comparison. Not that bad [00:21:00] people forget that. The very, yeah, it's difficult to appreciate, I think how, how things change qualitatively as well as typically, but then you've also got measures, like, you know, what is the cost of it relative to the size of the economy, which can also be an interesting way of looking at that. , so, and then you've got different ways of, of, of comparing those measures. So it's very difficult to compare the money over time. I mean, certainly these are expensive machines. , making a model even is extremely expensive, requires quite a lot of careful work. , but I wonder how much of that to scale tinkering happens. It's possible that, you know, in. In the process of making machinery with interchange parts and making it as kind of custom built. It's not really custom built, but. As integrated, as you say, as possible, we've made it actually harder to make changes. Perhaps we should be putting more in the way of tweak ability into our [00:22:00] design. Yeah. I mean, like that's, that's a, that's a huge thing. , it's like you see that with,you know, it's like, you can't take the,battery out of most Mac laptops anymore. , most cars you can't tinker with the engine. Anymore. , because you, you do get sort of like re efficiency returns by making things unconquerable. , so, so I, I, I definitely agree with, with you,I really appreciate you bringing in the nuance of comparing,the, the prices now to prices in the past. And,So think that I also wanted to ask is what do you think, like you're, I feel like one of the real historians who engages the most with sort of like the, the technology,world, what do you think that I would guess, I would say like, technology, people get wrong when they're thinking. Historically, like what, what sort of like, almost like cognitive [00:23:00] errors do you use, you see people making that just like make you want it, tear your hair out? What an interesting question. Couple. This is where I offend people. I think this is, I think, I think like, like you gotta, you gotta be okay with that as long as, as long as you like really believe it. Hmm. That's an interesting one. I mean, certainly you occasionally see a sort of simplified oversimplification of certain trends. Right. , but I, I don't know if that's common to technology people particularly, or if that's just general humans, a general human thing,which you probably see quite a lot. But, you know, I have to think about that one. Yeah, we can, we can circle back on it. I'm just, I guess it's just my, my bias is that I think a sort of historical thinking is under [00:24:00] done. , like, like lots of people talk about history, but they don't approach it like historians. And so I would love to just like inject a little bit more of the way that you think into the world. So I try to the general thing, I guess it would be that very occasionally I'll see the kinds of. Historical work, where you're effectively see people reading the Wikipedia page and kind of coming up with this very straightforward, almost linear narrative of this invention and led to this invention, which led to this invention or this understanding led to this invention. And I think what's often missing there is, is the extent to which. A lot of fan is just tinkering a lot of thought that there are so many more steps along the way that go into this and dead ends and you know, ways in which things either, either failed from a scientific point of view or a technical point of view [00:25:00] or. Just kind of, there's a lack of understanding at the time. We'll just from a business point of view where I think dead ends happen very easily in the history of technology. And there are a lot of them and they're probably somewhat unexplored, but on the converse, the other thing I notice a lot is that people often have a bias, I think, towards very technical explanations. , so a good example of this was, so I wrote this,Sub stack this newsletter, this newsletter blog post about the invention of Dungeons and dragons. Yes. I bought that one. I don't think it was quite as, it was probably my most popular one so far, even though, you know, bizarrely that thing, this is the one I spent the least time writing. Mmm. And the most common reaction. So that the overall argument for listeners who may not be aware of it, or probably won't be aware of it was that you have a lot of inventions that are behind that time, [00:26:00] which is the phrase, Alex, tap rock economist users. I quite like it essentially very, very low hanging fruit things that could have been done very, very early. And for some reason just worked. , and I think the reason I was just very few people in the past tinkered. Yeah. , and even fewer, perhaps, you know, of those who did tink or even made things public. So sometimes you get things invented and they actually failed to reveal it, to discover by the way, which is, you know, the word discover is uncover it's to kind of, not just that you found the things that you actually bother to tell someone about the thing and through the transmission of that knowledge, you know, that, that technology as a whole, as a, as a society advances,so yeah, some idea that it is is that you have a lot of these ideas that are, or inventions that could have been done any point within the past. And my main example of this or the one that I discussed that was doughnuts of records, right? This is literally for those who haven't played, literally, you need. Nothing except the people, right? It's it's you just [00:27:00] basically tell a story and then I guess you need dice. But I actually noticed the other day that they had,the 20 sided dice in each, in Egypt, something thousand, something BC, whatever, they found, very intricately inscribed. So you've got all of the raw materials and then all you do is you have the structured plate and the pushback from this was overwhelmingly. No, but there must be other factors, right? That there has to be some kind of constraint. I think the way that, and this is, this is the economist thing like this,cause they're trained to, and I think a lot of people in, I guess the, the technology sector thing like this as well, that there must be some kind of constraint that needs to be overcome. So a lot of people were saying, well, you did have some things like a Creek spiel. , which is this Prussian army game, which was kind of similar. Going back to the 19th century. There were potentially a few, I think it's the Bronte sisters may have come up with a similar form of structured play. , so there was the [00:28:00] questioning from that level, but then the other one was what cable you needed. I don't know the American suburb so that kids are like the invention of Childs so that kids would have, and yes, I get that those things may have contributed towards the specific form that D and D took. But. It still could have been invented earlier, right? These are, these are weak constraints. , and I think a lot of people, they, they tried very, they try very hard to find hard constraints, the same with the famous example,of the. , the suitcase with wheels, you know, people were just like, well, you know, first of all, you need to have, you know, good enough floors in the airport. You need to have a lot of people going to the airport, you know, an international flight because otherwise, what are you gonna use? This thing you need good enough roads for the wheels to work. You need good enough rubber. You probably need the, the ball bearings or something or something rather for this to be technically possible. But the reality is there are, there are absolutely loads inventions that just didn't require, you [00:29:00] know, maybe that's just a bad example. , but there are actually loads and loads of other ones as well. , another one I mentioned. Yeah. And that post, which not many people picked up on was Semafore systems, you know, signaling between ships or from ship to shore. Like you need a flag. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the early, when they, when they discovered it well, when they create invent the one that kind of becomes modern Semifore, you know, people are literally just doing with like a white handkerchief. Yeah, they wrapping around their arms. , the holograph by leftenant James Spratt is the one where they just kind of wrap it around their arms. It almost has a picture of Vitruvian man. , with the, you know, the, the kind of arms different positions all at once holding these handkerchiefs,very long kind of white cloth,or wrapping it around their arm. , the only example I can really think of,you know, The warning system that they used in Elizabethan times for when someone was invading England, which [00:30:00] is a bit like the lighting of the beacons and all the rings, you know, where they just set up a fire, it's like attack, you know, there's no, there's no signaling going on there. And another one I noticed just the other day was from the early 17th century was some kind of signaling system when they were fishing off the coast of Cornwall. But it's actually say what, how. How intricate that system was. So these are inventions though, that, you know, given it probably did exist in Cornwall in the 17th century. Why isn't it used while the Royal Navy until the late night, the late 18th, early 19th century, or even the kind of physical infrastructure that you see in France beforehand, they have these towers with signaling systems. Where they kind of have almost like they look a bit like windmills, except they don't turn around. They just kind of have these shutters that kind of go up and down in different arms of the shutters go up and down for different letters. Why do they only set that up in the seventies and eighties? This would have been useful, you know, underneath. 200, 300, 500,000 years. Exactly. I would say like the Greeks, like why didn't the Greeks [00:31:00] a signal between ships with,and I think a, you know, something when people say, Oh, it was invented earlier. Well then the question is, well, why wasn't it more widely adopted, right? Yeah. Invention does happen all the time. You do get things reinvented all the time. , but there are actually very few hard constraints on, on those inventions. I think that's just as true today. , I mean, one of the really interesting things about, I think a lot of people in today's technology, the sphere, the industry, and I guess the kind of intellectual sphere. Is that if you look at how a lot of them actually make their money, it is often from exploiting, extremely simple things that could have been done quite a bit earlier, which has worked well. They were, but they failed for whatever, either unrelated reason or the conditions weren't quite right. Or they just a bit unlucky. Yeah. Yeah. That's , Man. Okay. So there's, there's a couple of places that I'd love to go from this. I think one that I really want to get your take on is, and I think you're [00:32:00] really sort of touching it here is,if you look there, there are two really big schools of. Thought around history, right? Like, so you have the great man people, and then you have sort of like the evolutionary,sort of, so like, almost like I was, I was looking into this and there's no like single, like anti great man. It's theory, but like, it's, it's sort of like, is it just like, do things come about because like, like singular people really push things through, or is it a much more like, like it would have happened anyway process,and. I, I completely realized that it's not a binary thing, but what I'd love to do is just hear like your mental model of like, how like those, those two poles and where like, how things actually work. I think you, you probably need a bit of both. Right? So in a lot of my own work, I, I guess I'm [00:33:00] methodologically individualist, right? I like looking at what it is that individuals deed and said, and then from what they did and said, try to work out what they also thought or what motivated them, which isn't necessarily the same thing, but, you know, but you can, you can get at it a bit. Yeah. , At the same time, I think it's worth taking it's it's worth taking stuff off the kinds of forces that are pulling the strings, so to speak of those individuals and maybe affecting all of them all at once. So I think you need a bit of both. You have to be aware of the kind of overall macro level arguments. Yeah. Was it just, the prices were right in general, which is, you know, such a kind of broad sweep of coordination of millions, potentially people. Resulting in this single figure, right. , it's kind of spontaneously generated or created a thing. The emergent thing. , but at the same time, you do need to be aware that, you know, people I think do have agency,yes, their context [00:34:00] matters as to how they are mine, their agency. But I think one of the things I've learned is yeah, great, man theory may not exist. Great person theory may or may not be quite right. But so I think bad to throw the baby out with the, of water and say, well, yes, we've just, you know, in the kind of Marxist. Reading of things just at the mercy of these, these suffer national global forces around which we have no say whatsoever. I mean, the reality is that, you know, I think the industry relations is a great example of this because you have this broad acceleration. Imagine with some of these inventions, having these global scale effects on the rest of the world, you know, things like the steam boat. Okay. It's a collective endeavor that leads to that point where you have steam boats, but once steam boats effectively shrink the world, I mean, that completely changes the game when it comes to. Trade patterns, right? Suddenly the whole world can be globally integrated. You can see price convergence across the entire [00:35:00] globe. You see this kind of distinction between this growing distinction, as they, as people put it in the forties and fifties, you know, the periphery and the S and the core, an industrialized series of. The nation's sucking in raw materials from the rest of the world, because those raw materials were profitable. Those countries start specializing in those things alone. And, you know, perhaps they get the industrialized or whatever, you know, those forces are still ultimately caused by the actions of a few individuals. So I guess the way to think of it is that, you know, we should take the individual actions seriously in their context and not necessarily think of them as heroic individuals. You know, changing the course of the river, but they can definitely change the rate of the flow, the, the direction that it, that it flows in. , they can, you know, eat away at the banks a bit more or a bit less. Okay. I think, I think that there's room for change [00:36:00] there. , especially when it comes to network effects and that very much relies on individual initiative. Right. I think we take for granted that, Oh, you know, okay. Let's say a place like Vienna in the early in the year 19th century. It's just, yeah. You know, there's something magic in the air or in the water and people come together. No, you require individuals to be these kinds of. Social butterflies and bring together particular groups. And through those interactions almost create new ideologies potentially right? Where the convergence of different ideas and interest leads to a sort of synthesis. , you know, the Royal society in England in the 1660s is often cited as being a kind of outgrowth of  the circle around Samuel Hartlieb   he draws together all of these different people and they become, essentially a,an invisible college . Yeah, even though he's not really that involved himself in what then happens, the Hartlieb [00:37:00] circle kind of manifests itself as the Royal society later on, even though a lot of the Hotlips circle, you know, you could say we're very associated with the Cromwell Rasheem, you know, during the English civil war, you know, the Royal is sympathizers amongst the mobile we're adjacent to that ended up forming their own society. , so I think you need those sorts of fingers. People like hot flip or someone like Benjamin Franklin, right. Is he's as much a connector as he is an actor. Yeah. Bringing together particular people, sometimes that's just through writing, but often it's through correspondence is through active meeting. It's through setting things up or what the society of arts, which I wrote my book about, right. Would not have happened. Had it not been for the ship assistance of the guy like William Shipley, a lot of people have this ideal of an organization like that, but to actually make it happen, you need to actually do the organizing. So two things that makes me think of a first, actually going back to your point about soft [00:38:00] constraints. , what would you say to the argument that the softer, the constraints, the more important the individual is? So if it's something where it's like the world, just like wasn't ready for it. Like a hard constraint changed and then the world could have it then maybe it's like, okay. It just happened to be someone who made the thing, but then you look at such as the dragons,the inventor, Gary Gygax,maybe he was actually very important,because he was the one to really crystallize the whole thing. In my understanding of that particular example is there are quite a few people hovering around what, what would it, what he kind of hit it hit upon in his kind of unique way. , which strikes me as suggesting that, you know, perhaps there were a bunch of soft constraints that get lifted,in that particular case, or at least maybe not constraints, but things that led to that kind of particular. Form that it took.   I mean, it's definitely a [00:39:00] plausible mechanism, right? That sounds like it probably works. I'm just trying to think through an example of how, of whether or not that that's the case. I guess, I guess the right comparison would be, are there cases where I get or how, how quickly do old ideas that had very solid, hard constraints then get adopted? The moment those hard constraints get lifted. Yeah. Is perhaps the way to think about that. That'd be an interesting. Just like actually like going through those case studies. And I suspect there's quite a few from the 20th century. I mean, I'm trying to think of something like the steam engine, but the problem of the steam engine is that actually the hard constraint of simply not understanding how air works. And then once that gets once, once we do have an understanding of the air, it's actually pretty rapid from there. No, it's a matter of decades. I would say [00:40:00] once they, once they hit upon that, and once they, they realize they can do it with steam, it moves very, very quickly because I've seen, I mean, just today I was apparently there's a Spanish claimants to the adventure of the steam engine from 1606. I've got very worried. So I looked into it because it would have been validated my last blog post. , but I was safe. It turns out,because you know, that the steam mentioned is, as we know it doing the kind of work did from the 18th century onwards very much realized that understanding the weight of the air and then using atmospheric pressure through the steam condensing that you get the, the work being done. Whereas this much early one it's very much just. Basically using the steam itself to push water up. So you kind of get, put the, put the water that you're trying to drain into a tank yeah. Which is lower than the altar itself. And then you kind of push the [00:41:00] steam from the boiler through that up. So it kind of spouts out the top through a pipe, which is not the tool, same thing. Right. The amount of work you can do with that kind of dimension is completely different. , Yeah, I guess the things to look at would be actually, I can't, I can't think of an example. There are certain forms of engine, which I think are only, I think it's the Sterling engine, which are now being looked at again, because at the time that they were come up with in the 1820s, if I remember rightly,The Sterling engine just didn't really have the materials to make it work. Yeah. But now that we can do it, it seems as though they're starting to be a bit of movement around it, but they are, the problem is perhaps half dependence that we've, we've invented all these very good engines that do things pretty well. And to shift to a different path will only be worth it. If it becomes extremely, extremely expensive to, to work or to continue producing or. Well using the [00:42:00] existing laws that we have. Yeah. It's a sort of enhanced two question, I guess, is the sort of case where once you have those sorts of developments, it does start to rely a lot on relative prices in terms of the kind of investment that goes into certain things or the effort that goes into certain things, or when something is invented. You know whether or not it succeeds in the market, it definitely relies on those overall historical forces beyond our control, like prices and costs. Yeah, no, it's just,It's fascinating to think about it. And I appreciate you,actually thinking about it. Like, I feel like everybody has their, so, so many people have their narrative about like, this is the way it works. Like it's all evolution or it's all great people. , and, and so like actually like digging in and thinking about like, okay, like when, when is it, which,I really appreciate,I want to switch a little bit and talk about risk. , So a lot of the things that, that you discussed,blow up when they [00:43:00] fail. And yeah. So I'm, I'm wondering, like, if there's some like, and I feel like people today would not use something, if it would blow up when it failed. Right. So, so,and so, so,I'm wondering, like if there's something. In like, like you need a societal risk tolerance, like of, of like physical danger in order to be able to do this tinkering with,Sort of intense technology, right? Like, so like steamships, they, they blow up when they fail. And like you see all these pictures of,like steam engines that have, have exploded and they, they kill people. , and so it's like, do you think that there's, there's a difference in our level of, of risk tolerance between now and,the, the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe I'm not, I don't think so though. Okay. I'm trying, I'm just thinking of all of the sorts of things that just [00:44:00] from recent memory, you know, things like washing machines used to explode and fridges explode pretty easily, and it has that risk associated with them. , it's not until certain regulations come into force as the ways they have to be produced to kind of conform to certain standards. I mean, that's only a few decades ago. , And we certainly seeing a lot of inventions with the rocketry going on. Right. Which have a very, very real risk of exploding with absolutely no chance of survival. It's true. But you don't see that many, like, like, ah, I would say like sort of like civilians or, or customers getting on them right now, perhaps. I mean, certainly when it comes down to the wire, people are willing to take the risk for things like, you know, Testing a vaccine for the coronavirus. Right? What I've noticed is actually a lot of people are very bravely putting themselves forward for that sort of thing. I think I read the other day that the children of one of the, one of the [00:45:00] scientists working on it, an Oxford where, you know, very willing Guinea pigs for their moms,work in terms of there's vaccine and, you know, things go wrong with the vaccine. Things can do very, very wrong. Yeah, life-changing Lee or like Killingly I guess,even if they don't kill you, it could, it could affect the rest of your field days. So it seems as though, I mean, usually of course, you've got all sorts of regulation about the stages in which you test things out, and that's definitely different to what happens in the 18th century where, you know, it would gener. Gets his Gardener's son and gives him, you know, he purposely gives him cow pox and then smallpox to see if he gets it. And he's fine. Thank God. You know, or, you know, in the 17th century, the early experiments with track blood transfusions, they get pretty widespread and ultimately it just requires a doctor to kind of persuading their [00:46:00] patient on the, the procedure. , So, I suppose in some ways were more cautious about risk. , and again, even in these early cases, you know, they would often, when it comes to the first small pox inoculations, when they're trying to test them, they choose people who are going to be hanged as they're, you know, so they're, they're not, they're not always choosing people who are volunteering without any other constraints around that. Well, without any other possibilities, that's actually, that's very reassuring. I think it's like a, like there's I have this narrative in my head where we're like super risk averse and like, that's why we can't do anything, but,be very happy. That's actually wrong. I mean, certainly if you look at the number of people who become entrepreneurs and. In terms of just financial risk, basically give everything up and go bankrupt freeze. I mean, I don't see, I don't sense any change there. [00:47:00] Yeah. If anything, probably because the money available given how cheap capital is, it's just like everywhere for whatever idea, no matter how crazy, you know,in a way that in the past, just wasn't available. So. You know, even if society as a whole is becoming more risk averse in terms of regulation and trying to prevent loss of life, the ability to take financial risks as much, you know, we're were able to take as much. Much more risks, I think, than the net before, you know, society is now enabling the risk takers in that kind of stuff. As, as long as you will, could possibly make the money, I think is one of my concerns, I guess. So, but even then, I mean the business cases, aren't exactly what we solid. So that very kind of what's the classic, you know, do this question, Mark. Make some money. Yeah. I will speak to him. I'll also, also,Sell you a hundred dollars for $99 get [00:48:00] all the users. Yeah. , so,another thing that,I wanted to ask you about is like, sort of like in terms of the cultures of innovation is something that I've been struggling with is like almost by definition to really innovate on something. You need to break a spoken or unspoken rule. And,So, like, have you seen anything in the relationship between,like cultures and rule breaking and innovation? Do you know what this actually, maybe also answers your earlier question about something that people mentioned a lot, which is that the. As though it's a kind of us for you, them. I had a narrative where we must take on the entrenched interest and they're going to block us at every turn. Luddites are everywhere. Yeah. That's the classic Silicon Valley. Yeah. And maybe in some ways it's a [00:49:00] useful, even if it's a myth in the sense that, you know, if you're going to troll people together, what better way than to create an enemy for them to fight or to help do. Right. , So maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing and can be quite motivating in a way that isn't necessarily that harmful. Right. Cause it's more about out competing someone,than it is about destroying them necessarily. , no, it's okay. Competition as a word could perhaps be a bad thing cause it, it, it, it. Implies a contest or not really a contest, but maybe combat. Whereas what's really meant is something more like a sports where whoever whoever's first wins, the race versus boxing or something where whoever knocks the other one out is the one, the one who wins, so I think this, this narrative is very common. And I'm so skeptical of it nearly all the time, right? Is that you do have that kind of opposition to invention, but it's always been there. And I don't think, I think it's, I think that kind of opposition is very rarely to innovate invention per [00:50:00] se. I think it's much more commonly in opposition to particular ways in which those inventions affect existing interests. , So the Luddites, for example, a smashing particular kinds of machinery that are, that they feel are framing their jobs, the suite, the captain swing rights, again, affecting particular kinds of machinery. , I mean to, to, to go beyond machinery, think of the kind of anti enclosure movements where, you know, this is an economic change that is potentially improving the, the rental yields of the land in the sense that it's a more efficient use of it. , but it's certainly. Yeah, depending on the kinds of enclosure, it could be kicking labor is off. So the replacing fields with, with sheep,which is, you know, competing like 40, 40 laborers suddenly replaced with one shepherd,So these are things that I think affects particularly interest in the same way that, you know, Uber opposition to Uber, isn't Israel, Haley about kind of general opposition to that kind of [00:51:00] technology. It's usually a kind of just opposition by taxi drivers. Having invested a lot of money in getting these rents and being like, you know, what the hell I've, I've invested all that money. And you're telling me this was for nothing. And I could have just gone and use this app. , Which is understandable, right? It's, it's something that you see throughout. And so I think, you know, a lot of the time when I see this and you see this throughout history as well, I often see something being like, so, and so inventor was rejected by the emperor of China, the emperor of Turkey, or. The queen list with the first. And so they went abroad and took their invention elsewhere. And the moment you actually start to dig into the details of those, they're either completely apocryphal or they're much more about the specifics of the invention and not about inventors in general. , I very rarely come across cases where people are just anti novelty. Because if you're [00:52:00] anti novelty in one direction, you might actually be very pro novelty and other ones, right? The kinds of people who might be very unhappy about things, look, call center to call an employment, probably perfectly happy to have new designs for the silks they're going to wear. You know, there's novelty as a whole is Jen is I think it's we over overanalyze it, we over kind of label it, like creating this kind of fake. We in the same way that I disliked discussions before the scientific revolution or, you know, big, broad terms that cover these huge sweeping things or individualism. Right. I find these very difficult concepts to get my head around because when I actually. Think okay. How would I use this myself? I kind of can put the Gates a bit of a problem now, even industrial revolution to even define it. You require an essay. So, yeah, so, so the upshot is, is it's actually like much more nuanced and complicated. , [00:53:00] Man, I, this is like, this is like the historian's buzzkill. Right? Which is like, you've covered this great theory. I'm sorry. Well, I think it's something that happens a lot and weirdly I think I'm off historians, actually, a lot more willing to entertain the broad sweeping theories. Cause I think, you know, they, they do, I mean, certainly have a certain sort of historian, right? Those who are brought up in the economic history or the Marxist and various other traditions or the long duration kind of traditions, they certainly have these, these broad sweeping theories and they like to tinker with those. , but there's also a lot of historians who are much more specific. And I think you do need a bit of both that, that. But you've got, when you do use it, who's you or your boss killing bit by saying actually it's more complicated than that. , I think that's best when put in relation to the theory as a whole. Yeah. So it should be telling us about our general mental models of how the world works. So yeah, for me, that my [00:54:00] problem with a lot of these Luddite things is they, they kind of give me this instinctual kind of, I don't know if it's such a big. Battle,in that particular way, I mean, actually to give you an example that I've just been writing about right now, just before we started the podcast, I've been reading the work of Daniel Defoe, so famous for Robinson Crusoe,and to foe is both pro improvement and yet seemingly very anti particular forms of technology. Right. The whole book that I've been reading, which is a tour through the islands of great Britain. Is him just going all around Britain and commenting on the recent things that have happened, the economic growth, the improvements, the land, you know, the, the, the change, the changes to manufacture, how many more people are now being employed. And they were formally, you know, how much more trade is going on in these sports. And he's excited about this stuff. He thinks that improvement as a whole is a good thing. He's pro I would say he's a [00:55:00] pro improvement technology. Awesome. Yeah. And yet when you come to specifics, like. The stocking frame. He is lamenting the fact that it's made certain whole villages completely unemployed. Yeah. Cause the, the, the, the economy, that's all the kind of where the growth is, has shifted to other places where those frames were being applied earlier. I mean, he's even talking, you know, very in favor of bands or imported. Silks and important cottons because it affects the wool, the fine wool industry and East Anglia. , and so this isn't his, it's not like he's anti openness or anti, I mean, he's a pro-trade person. I mean, he's someone who is extremely pro-immigration,who was trying to create these settlements almost like charter cities for religious written political refugees in the early 18th century. And yet. When it comes to those specific things, he can still [00:56:00] think that's a bad thing. It's not inconsistent for that. So I guess that's what I mean, there is that we, we should be careful about labeling people as Luddites or anti-technology I guess, where that's interesting though, is that you do at the same time, have certain people who I guess from an ideological perspective will be quite panty. Those things, but they're rarely workers. They're rarely people who are directly affected. I mean, I guess like to a lot of your listeners, it's going to be the kind of. The, I guess, increasing email, traditional feeling between journalists who cover technology and technologists, right. That you see a lot of the kinds of critiques. And I've noticed on Twitter that have that all of this kind of a growing vehemence like that. And that's, that's, that's interesting, right? , and I don't know if that's ideological or, or if it's just the journalists, I find good stories and good stories are usually negative or they involve, I have [00:57:00] people. So if you're put in charge of technology, you're going to be looking for bad people,in particular sectors. And so that might color your whole view. Of the sector, or if you're, if you're asked to come up with the kind of general op-ed about what the state of what's going on, you're probably going to come up with like the bad things that happen, the things to be careful. So, yeah, again, I don't think that's necessarily like anti technologist and I mean, to a certain extent, those people are probably pro a lot of the kinds of technologies that are coming up. They're certainly using them often as well. I think, I think the problem with. Having so much nuance is that it really involves like sitting down and like talking to people and like really trying to understand them and people,often don't want to spend the time doing that. the last question I always like to ask people is,what is something that people you think should be thinking about that they're not thinking enough about. [00:58:00] In a historical way in this is, this is your  or just anything like this. This is your, I think of this as sort of like the, the open, open podium. , no pressure, no pressure at all. It's an interesting one. I guess that changes day by day for me as to what I think people should be thinking more about. Yeah. Well, what about today? Today. I mean, the, the main general one is that, and this, I guess isn't probably as targeted as your usual audience, but as a more general thing is it would be nice if people appreciated technology a bit more and they thought about its evolution a bit more,Or even just the people who were involved in making those things possible. I mean, if you just look around the room that you're in right now, or the space that you're in right now, like the, the nearly everything in it [00:59:00] regarding whether it's actually manufacturer even natural as involved someone doing a bit of tinkering. I mean, I'm looking at a house plot right now and thinking to myself, okay, what even allowed this plant to be here. That's always, certainly not native to England. It's you know, so it probably involves perhaps, you know, greenhouse technology, it involved all sorts of glass, making that in involved people learning how to cultivate it, spreading that knowledge of cultivation probably involves fertilizer improvements. You know, the, the, the, the capacity of improvement is almost infinite. , I guess, I guess this is a kind of other general thing that maybe you'll usual listeners will also be kind of more interested in, which is that, you know, a lot of what we can improve. Isn't just about efficiency. It isn't just about making things cheaper or work faster or work better. , it can, or even simplifying things, which I imagine a lot of people do. It's also about [01:00:00] aesthetics. It's also about beauty. It's also about. Capacity of things to provoke, meaning I guess, or interpretations of a particular kind. , which sounds a bit fluffy. , but I don't think it is. I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of improvement that takes place happens along these kind of unexpected. Lines,where it's, you know, maybe just something like increasing the variety of plants in your garden, you know, in the 17th century, unexpectedly leads to dramatic improvements in agricultural productivity a hundred years later because of the sorts of things that you had to problem solve to do that. I mean, just today I was reading or yesterday I was reading about the first orange trees in England and how. When those were introduced, you know, during the winter they created a sort of shed that would have been put up all of the trees to protect them from the frost. And that actually, you know, does have an impact later on in the kinds of multicultural development that you get later on as well. So yeah, I [01:01:00] guess that's a kind of be open to those artists affected. I wish people were more open to those unexpected avenues for invention.

Michelle Oates: A promise tomorrow is worth a lot less than trying today. I am Michelle Oates and I'm a Tri-Cities influencer. Paul Casey: But really this is the core philosophy of what I teach in time management, and that is manage your time around your values and vision. This is your foundation for everything else in time management. Speaker 3: Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington in Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the TCI podcast where local leadership and self-leadership expert, Paul Casey interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and nonprofit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams, so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey: Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Cari McGee. Cari is a realtor with Keller Williams and I asked for a fun fact about her. She has very vivid dreams that she still remembers, but Cari, you're going to have to tell the story. Cari McGee: Okay. Well, a lot of grownups forget their dreams or they think of childhood is when you really have your dreams. But here I am as an adult having pretty vivid dreams. The other day I had a dream that I was married to my accountant, and that's kind of funny, but what's really funny is that I wasn't married to my accountant. Instead of being married to my husband, I was married to my accountant in addition to being married to my husband, and he just liked being married to me. He traveled a lot, I understood in the dream. And he said that when he was home, he just liked to be married to me. Cari McGee: In the dream, I'm thinking, I'm like, "Okay, this is pretty serious. And if I get caught, how am I going to explain this?" Like, sometimes if somebody gets caught in a crime syndicate or whatever, they can say, "Oh, I was brainwashed or this..." Nothing like that happened. Like, why was I married to two people at once? I have no idea. So thankfully I woke up. Paul Casey: Thankfully I woke up. Cari McGee: And that was not my reality. Paul Casey: That's a good T-shirt message as well. Thankfully, I woke up. Cari McGee: Yes, totally love that. Paul Casey: Especially in these trying times that we're in, maybe we're all going to get to put that on our shirts. Cari McGee: Oh, right, right. That's a good message. Paul Casey: Well, we're going to dive in after checking in with our Tri-City Influencer sponsor. Preston House : Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, vice president and commercial lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House : When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I've been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old. So when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate, employment and retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community like Preston, with all the information and support they need all under one roof. Preston House : It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call, no automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business, serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information, how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track. Visit wwwcommunity1st.com. That's www community one st.com. Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the Tri-Cities. So, Cari, I think we met years ago, our children are the same age, both kids, same age, both a male and a female child, same grade, Wiley Elementary, Enterprise Middle School. Cari McGee: Yes. Hanford High. Paul Casey: Hanford High, right? Cari McGee: Yes. And our daughters are these amazing graduating kids. Paul Casey: Yes. Yes. 2020 kids, which is sad that they don't get the fanfare or some of those rituals that all the other seniors get. Cari McGee: I know. Paul Casey: Man, but we're making the best of it. Cari McGee: Absolutely. Same here. Paul Casey: So help our Tri-City influencer listeners get to know you. Tell us through a couple of your career highlights that led you to where you are today. Cari McGee: Okay. I began in real estate in 2004. And funny story, I decided to get into real estate. I had been in retail for years, but then I decided to get into real estate because there was somebody else that we knew that was in real estate. He was very successful, but I didn't understand why he was very successful. So I thought if this person is successful, I can probably be more successful. Cari McGee: So I borrowed a computer because in those days everything was not online yet, but you had to run a computer program to do your coursework. So I borrowed a PC because we only had Macs and it took me hours and I got it finished. And then I've been selling real estate full-time since 2004. Paul Casey: Wow. Why do you love what you do? Cari McGee: Oh, my gosh. It is a different job every day, number one. Number two, it's such a privilege to be a part of that particular aspect of a person's life because where you live obviously is hugely impactful to whether you move into a particular house as a kid or as a grownup, you're living there. Right? And I know if I had not been a Christian before this, I would be a Christian now because I've seen the way God works and orchestrates things like the money will come in at the last minute. Right? Or a house will be delayed closing because somebody else is supposed to move to town because they're the real owners. It's weird, and it's such a privilege to be a part of plans for people and what's going on for them. It's really, really cool. Paul Casey: That is really rewarding. So throughout that journey, you've hit obstacles to success. I'm sure. Cari McGee: Yes. Paul Casey: What is one of the biggest hurdles you've overcome in your career? Cari McGee: I would say that sometimes there have been people that either they see what I'm capable of and are scared by it or threatened by it and try to kind of rein me in or they don't see it and I haven't seen it either. And so I have not progressed or done as much as I could have/should have because of those other things happening. Does that make sense? Paul Casey: Yeah. What kind of people try to rein you in? Cari McGee: Well, there's a book called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent by Gary Keller, famous book, awesome book. And in 2004 or five, I think, my husband gave it to me as a Christmas present and I read it and I was so excited. I went into my broker at the time and I said, "Oh my gosh, I just read this book, and it's amazing. And I'll implement these programs and plans and I'll make a million dollars and it'll be great." My broker at the time said, "Cari, you're a wife and a mom. You really should just focus on that." Paul Casey: Ooh, wow, ouch. Cari McGee: Yeah, I was like, "Ooh." Well, I'm kind of mad at myself though, too, for... I mean, I didn't say you're right, but I didn't say you're wrong, either. Paul Casey: But it's something well up inside of you like, "I'm going to show everybody." Cari McGee: A little bit. There's all this... Yeah. Paul Casey: You have that competitive juice in you. Cari McGee: Oh, I totally do. I'm super competitive. Super competitive. Paul Casey: Well, leadership is difficult. Being an entrepreneur is difficult. What's one of your biggest ongoing challenges of being a realtor, and what really stretches you to the limit sometimes? Cari McGee: Change used to be my big thing, but now I've learned to embrace it. So, yay change! Paul Casey: Yay. Cari McGee: But I think that understanding that not everyone always looks at things the way you do, right? Everyone comes from a different perspective and a different background. So if I am like, "This is the way it gets done," and sometimes I'll be so far down the path and I'm like, "Where are you? Why are you not here with me?" And they're like, "Well, I still need to understand step four when you're at step eight." I'm like, "Oh, okay." That's hard for me is to not understand that everybody is where I am in the thought process. Paul Casey: They're at a different place in the thought process. Cari McGee: Exactly. Paul Casey: Well, you said you're better with change now. Was there a time where... Tell us about that. Cari McGee: Well, for years, any sort of change, I would just be like, "Oh, this is awful. This is ick." I want everything to stay the same as it was, and let's embrace the status quo and let's not change things. But three years ago, I needed to make a pretty significant change. And I kind of looked around when the dust settled and I was like, "Oh, this is better. This is better than where I was." So change can be good if you stop fighting against it, and instead say, "Let's see where this takes you." Paul Casey: So, that was your mental shift that you had to make, and it sounds like it stayed with you, too. Cari McGee: Oh, 100%. Paul Casey: That it can be way better even though it's going to be painful for a season. Cari McGee: Yeah. 100%. Paul Casey: Awesome. Awesome. Well, if you had a philosophy that you would put front and center on a bulletin board in your office or on the back sticker of your car for everyone to see, what would some of those messages say? Cari McGee: One of my favorite quotes ever is from Paradise Lost by John Milton. "The mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." I always think about that because if somebody is... I'm a big believer in mindset. You know, you govern everything that happens to you by how you interpret it and what happens in your brain. If I encounter someone who's like, "Oh, this is bad." And they're gloomy Gus or whatever, it's really hard to not almost shake them and say, "Listen, you're creating this in your brain because literally you can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven. It's just all how you perceive it." Paul Casey: So your thoughts are everything. Cari McGee: Yeah. 100%. Paul Casey: Yeah, yeah. There's a life coach, famous one out there named Brooke Castillo. She puts out this formula of CTFAR, which is circumstance happens to you, and then you have a thought. Usually that thought is somewhat automatic. If we can be careful about that thought, which is what you're saying, because it immediately is going to turn into a feeling. And the feeling could bring you down this downward spiral, which is ugly, or it could be a very empowering feeling that like you said would change. Like, what's going to be better if I just go on this journey? Paul Casey: Well, as soon as you do attach the feeling to it, now an action starts to manifest. That could be your body puts out signals that make people go, "Are you okay, Cari?" Or "It seemed like you're offended. Are you angry?" Or whatever that is. You may not like the signals that your body is putting out, or they could really inspire someone. And then the R is the result. And that's what the effect has on everyone around you. So circumstance, thought, feeling, action, and then result. Cari McGee: Makes sense. Paul Casey: So it sounds like that you definitely have that. The John Milton quote really talks about mindset. Anything else that you'd put on the sticker of your car? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. I'm really blessed because I've always been an optimist. Paul Casey: I know this about you. Cari McGee: You know? Paul Casey: Yeah. Cari McGee: I'm always positive. And so I guess that it would be that just like, "Look on the bright side." There's always a bright side. Find it. Paul Casey: Some of that is natural for you and your personality style, but you have to choose it every day. So if you're talking to these Tri-City influencers, why would you say choose optimism? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. If you're not choosing optimism, you're choosing pessimism or you're choosing a negative side of realism, and I mean, that just drags you down. It doesn't move you forward. You don't grow where it's dark. You grow where there's light and you move forward where there's light. Think of sunflowers, right? They follow the sun because that's what makes them... You know, that's doing their job. They're optimized, I guess, would be the best word for that. Paul Casey: Things grow where there's light. There's the bumper sticker. We found it. Cari McGee: There you go. Okay. Paul Casey: I love it. I love it. Well, most influencers I know have a bit of a visionary inside of them or that like, "We've got to take the next deal. I got these ideas." So for you, where do you take time to dream about the future or new ideas? Where do you play with that kind of stuff? What does that look like? Cari McGee: Oh, a couple of places. I'm in my car a lot as a real estate agent and so a lot of stuff... I'll be listening to podcasts and something will be said and it'll make me think, and I'll pause the podcast and I'll start to think and dream. One other thing, and this is funny, my husband used to be in broadcasting. So this is where this question comes from, but my whole life, I've interviewed myself. Like, "Well, Cari, tell us about this time." Right? To help me kind of walk through or figure out a problem. I was telling my husband that once, and he said, "Do you ever ask yourself a question you can't answer?" I said, "What?" He said, "Well, that's the mark of a good interview." Okay. The point is not though to be- Paul Casey: To stop. Cari McGee: Right. I'm talking to me. Right? I'm not going to ask myself something that I don't know. But anyway, I'll use that time in the car to do that, and then oftentimes too just out sitting on the patio in the evening, watching the sunset and thinking of the future. Paul Casey: Little patio time. Cari McGee: Yes. Paul Casey: Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. Interview yourself. So Matt McGee, was he sports? What was he? Cari McGee: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. Paul Casey: Yeah, he was sports. What years were that? Cari McGee: Oh gosh, '94 through '97 I think he was at KEPR. Paul Casey: Okay. Okay. But asking yourself questions. And I do, I find that, too, like... Because you're on social media a lot. Right? Which platforms do you enjoy the most by the way? Cari McGee: Facebook is my milieu. I love it. Paul Casey: Okay. Okay. So, of course, you have to be self-promoting, which is hard. Cari McGee: Correct yes. Paul Casey: Which is hard, and sometimes when you just try to come up with a message on your own, it's difficult. But if you think about the interview, like if I just have somebody ask me a question, for some reason, it makes it easier. Have you found that? Cari McGee: Oh, 100%. Yes. Yes. Paul Casey: I don't know if it just brings out our authenticity or you don't feel quite as plastic to put it out to the world, but if you can get someone else to ask you a question, I think that's just easier. Cari McGee: Well, I mean, I did something at the beginning of when the stay at home order was released. I did a thing for 30 days on Facebook. Every day I asked a new question and it really helped people because the purpose of it was to remind them that we were in this situation, and to think about times in the past when we were not, and times in the future when we won't be. Paul Casey: Oh, I like it. Cari McGee: So that was the purpose of it and it was a different question every day. It was things like, What's your favorite color? Or do you have a middle name? Do you wish it was a different middle name? What would your last name be if you could change it? I mean, so things like that. You're right. It's when you ask questions, people just are... They jump on it. They get so excited. Paul Casey: So a good strategy on social media for engagement, because you've got a lot of engagement from that, too. Right? Cari McGee: I did. I did. Paul Casey: Yeah. So asking a good question. Really the power of a good question is really essential to leadership and of course, to entrepreneurship. That curiosity really brings out the best in people it seems. Well, before we head into our next question on how Cari starts her day, let's shout out to our sponsor. Preston House : Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, vice president and commercial lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House : When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I'd been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old. So when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate employment, retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community like Preston with all the information and support they need all under one roof. Preston House : It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call, no automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business, serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information, how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track, visit wwwcommunity1st.com. That's www community one st.com. Paul Casey: So Cari, what's your typical morning routine look like before work and once you hit the ground running at work, and if you have any rituals that help you start your day strong? Cari McGee: I actually do. I don't know if you've ever read The Miracle Morning. Paul Casey: I've heard of it. Cari McGee: Okay. It's really, really good, and it talks about having, it can be as few as 10 minutes, or it can be as much as an hour of SAVERS, S-A-V-E-R-S. Paul Casey: Oh, yes. Is it Hal Elrod? Cari McGee: Yes, yes. Paul Casey: Yes. Okay. Cari McGee: S is silence, moment of silence, meditation, prayer, whatever. And then A is affirmations. V is visualization. E is exercise. R is reading and S is scribing or journaling. I started that. It was so funny. I started it three years ago, I think. What I love about it is that it centers me because I wake up and I don't look at my phone first thing. I don't look at my emails. Cari McGee: The problem with that is you immediately, you're in reactive mode when you do that and that's so bad for you, and the hormones of your body when you're waking up and everything. So if you start the day really centering and being grateful and then also dreaming, you're affirming the visualization. Probably it ties into the dream thing. I mean, I have a really active imagination. Visualizing is not a problem for me at all. And so I love that part of it. And then I've always loved to read and then journaling, too. I love to write. And so all of that is what I generally do probably about five days a week. Paul Casey: That's great. So take us through SAVERS again, so our listeners don't have to rewind. Cari McGee: Sure. S is silence. So silence, meaning a moment of silence in prayer or meditation. A is affirmations. V is visualization. E is exercise. R is reading and S is scribing, which is the old-fashioned way of saying journaling. Paul Casey: Yeah. Yeah. I heard Brendon Burchard, he's another podcast guy I listen to. Cari McGee: Oh, I like him. Paul Casey: He said, "We need to take our MEDS every day and MEDS is meditation, exercise- Cari McGee: Yeah. Meditation, exercise, diet, and- Paul Casey: Sleep. Cari McGee: Sleep. Yeah. Paul Casey: Yeah. So SAVERS incorporates that, but even takes it to that next level with the journaling. What does journaling do for you? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, Paul, I've always been a writer. I write stories. I write everything. So for me, it's helpful because I will read back over old entries and remember where I was at any given time. And if it was a bad time, then I'm like, "Oh, look at me. I got past this bad time because this is not my reality anymore." Now I'm over here, that happened. It helps me remember and realize that I've gotten through bad times before. Paul Casey: You grew. Cari McGee: Right. I've gotten through bad times and here I am on the other side of it. Maybe sometimes in there, I'll talk about how I did it, but mostly it's just recording how I feel at any given time. Then I'm like, "Oh, I remember that place. I didn't like that place. I'm glad I'm here now." Paul Casey: Yeah, I've heard journal is a place to protest. Cari McGee: Oh, sure. Paul Casey: You know, it's like when you write an email to someone you're mad at and then you don't send it, but it's just getting it done and then you're going to delete it. Cari McGee: Right, exactly. Paul Casey: A journal can also be that place where you're just talking about your feelings to the world, but to no one. And then you don't have to show it to anyone else. It's your own private place is doing this journaling. Cari McGee: I like that. Paul Casey: That's why that's a good one, too. And sleep, well, it's so important, especially during this COVID crisis. A lot of Zoom meetings where you're talking with people on the phone or, and they just... The research says you need eight hours of sleep. I don't know if you're an eight-hour person. Cari McGee: Oh, no. I totally am. I'm a huge sleep believer. It bothers me when people are all like, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." Okay, well, you're going to die sooner. Paul Casey: It's going to catch up to you. Yeah. Cari McGee: So why don't you sleep now? Right? That's my thing. Paul Casey: It's going to catch up to you. So if you're getting by in five, six or seven normally, you need the eight now because boy, you just... Sleep puts your life in perspective, I think, if you have enough adequate rest. And when you're on burnout, you lose your perspective and that's a scary place. You ever been in a place of burnout before where it's just- Cari McGee: Oh, gosh yeah. Yes. Paul Casey: Now what does that feel like for you? Cari McGee: Oh, I get snappy. I get really, really snappy with everyone I love. I'll do a lot of screaming in the car. You know, "Move your 'beep.'" Do you not? My mom always used to do this thing where she would drive and we'd be at the intersection and she'd say, "Beep, beep." And then they would move. And she'd say, "See, Cari, they heard me." I was like, "What?" But I will be like, "Move." You know, and it doesn't work for me. Anyway, I snap. I get pissy. Oh, I get snotty. I have attitude. It's awful. Paul Casey: Any other tips you'd give to listeners about avoiding burnout? Because it's a grind. Running your own business is a grind, but even for those that are in a regular work job, a day job, a burnout is always a threat. Cari McGee: Yep. 100%. Sleep is important. Like we just talked about, you've got to get enough sleep. Otherwise, your last nerve gets reached really fast. But also, one thing that I'm not really good at doing, but would help if I did is take time to notice the things you have done well and where you are now, like you did land that big client or you were able to accomplish this task that you didn't think you could. And then you're like, "Okay, you know what? I really am further along than I thought I'd be." Paul Casey: Yeah. Take time to celebrate, I think is what you're saying. Cari McGee: Yeah. Paul Casey: On my whiteboard, it's my scorecard or whatever I call it, and at the end of every week... I'll do it. I'll do it tomorrow. It's my weekly review, and it's all the things I did get done this week. Of course, I'm just a party of one as a solopreneur. And I just went, "Yes, I got that done, that done, that done." Nobody else sees it, but me, but it makes me feel good like this was another good week. Cari McGee: See, and that's really good. I need to do that. I don't do them enough. Paul Casey: Yeah. When I ask my coaching clients, the very first question I usually ask of them, the icebreaker question is what wins can we celebrate? What did you get crossed off your list? What did you make progress on? Because most people at least can feel like, "Well, I moved the ball forward in these areas." It's not done-done, but it's better than it was last week. So I really love that as a burnout avoidance technique or else you just feel like, again, not anything done. This is a- Cari McGee: Same crap, different day unless you take a minute to say, "Wait, this was a very different day because I accomplished X." Paul Casey: Yes, yes. We're trying to avoid Groundhog Day. Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: That is a great way to do it. I love it. Now, family is a big deal to most people. How do you prioritize your family time whether it's with your husband, with your kids and yet still be a high performer at work, right? It's this constant tension. Cari McGee: It is, it is. Well, this is a slightly different thing for women, I think, as opposed to men, especially in my job anyway. I heard a long time ago and I have always lived by this. Say, for example, if I'm going to take my daughter to a dance class or I'm going to do something, right? If I tell a client that that's what I'm doing, then I'm a mom primarily who also happens to work in real estate. Paul Casey: Oh, okay. Cari McGee: Right? But if a dad says, "Hey, I can't show you this house, because I'm going to take my daughter." "Oh my gosh, you're the best dad in the world. Oh, my gosh, you're really taking time for your family. Oh, my gosh, absolutely." Right? So I have always said, even if I am doing something with my kids, nobody knows that. I'm like, "Okay, you know what? I have a lunch appointment." Paul Casey: I'm just unavailable right now. Yep. Cari McGee: Right. Exactly. "I have a lunch appointment. Blah, blah, blah." So I draw those really clear boundaries around stuff. They don't necessarily know what those boundaries are around, but I mean, that's why when I need to do something with kid one or kid two, I'm there when I said I'd be there because that's super important especially when they're littler. My daughter, it's funny. She hasn't been in daycare for... I don't know. She's 18 now. So like, I don't know, 10 years or more, probably 15 years. And she remembers the one time we were late. Cari McGee: Every time we passed her daycare, "Remember when we were late, when you were late to get me?" It's like, "Stop kid." Right? I mean, it's a testament to the fact that her dad and I worked so hard to get them on time that she remembers the one time we were late. Do you know what I mean? As opposed to it being a constant thing. Paul Casey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, it's our brains who remember those traumatic times- Cari McGee: Oh, my gosh right. Paul Casey: ... more than all the times you're on time and all the gifts you gave them. Cari McGee: Exactly. Paul Casey: Do you have date times with your husband? How do you carve? Do you carve that out or as a realtor, do you have to move blocks of time all over the place? Cari McGee: No. Sometimes... I mean, he'll say, "This Marvel movie is coming out on Saturday and I got tickets for us already" or whatever. And then I'm like, "Okay, that's perfect." Because if I know in advance, then I'll schedule around it, so that's fine. Paul Casey: Okay. So that's blocked out in advance probably through good communication, because there's probably times where you just got to show house and that has to be moved around. Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: And of course, Matt is the biggest U2 fan on the planet. Right? Right? Cari McGee: Well, usually. Actually, he's no longer a U2 fan. Paul Casey: No longer? Cari McGee: No. Paul Casey: Oh wow. Okay. Cari McGee: There's a new band called Gang of Youths that he loves. They're from Australia, and they're amazing. Paul Casey: Okay. All right. I was going to say, did that impact your marriage? Cari McGee: Actually, this is funny. I was really worried because I thought... Because they predate me and I thought, "Oh, if he could lose interest in them, my days are numbered." My daughter was like, "Mom, please." I was like, "Oh." Paul Casey: Funny, funny. Okay. So as an influencer, we know you're not a know-it-all. You're a learner, right? Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: So where do you go for the wisest advice? These can be live people. Well, they probably all have been live people. Cari McGee: And once live. Paul Casey: I mean, people around us in the Tri-Cities or they're authors, motivators. You've mentioned one already. You've talked a little bit about podcasts. There's probably some industry professionals because what I know about Keller Williams is it's like the best training company, because I get the magazine. I get Trainer Magazine. I know I'm sort of a nerd, but Keller Williams always wins the awards in there. So tell me about your influencers you go to. Cari McGee: Well, one of the number one real estate coaching companies in the world is Tom Ferry coaching. I've had a Tom Ferry coach for four years. Paul Casey: Nice. Cari McGee: I was a Tom Ferry coach for a period of time. I have a new coach now outside that Tom Ferry organization. She's amazing. So ever since I realized how important coaching is, that's really... I mean, holy cow, my business doubled. It was amazing. Paul Casey: Really? Wow. Bam. Cari McGee: Yes. It was really remarkable. So coaches for sure. And then part of that reading of the SAVERS is reading books like Principles by Ray Dalio. Paul Casey: I'm reading that one right now. Yes. Cari McGee: Okay. It's so good. Right? So there's so much to learn, Paul, from everybody. Oh, my gosh, I'm just always reading, and like I said, always podcasting, listening to podcasts with great interviews with people, so that I have to learn more. Paul Casey: Do you have a few favorite books or podcasts that you could recommend so that generally entrepreneurs or leaders would enjoy? Cari McGee: Sure. One is not actually about anything entrepreneurial, but it's called 99% Invisible and it is just stinking great, fascinating trivial information, really good stories. It's been going on for 10 years and I discovered it a year ago, and over successive hikes at Badger, I've made my way through 10 years of that catalog and stuff. It's so good. Paul Casey: Yes. 99% Invisible? Cari McGee: Yes. So good. And then Matt does a walk through or does a podcast called The Walkthrough and it's about real estate stuff, and so that's fantastic. And then also, gosh, I would say Tom Ferry's podcast is really good, too. Paul Casey: Okay. These are good ones. Cari McGee: Oh, sorry. And Gary Keller does one and I can't remember what it's called, but it's really, really good. Paul Casey: I have listened to Gary Keller's before. Yes, it is good. So finally, Cari, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing or gaining more influence? Cari McGee: Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I mean, it's really scary, but you are a better person on the other side of whatever it is and your whole life will be better on the other side of whatever you're scared about. Paul Casey: Yeah. I think I've actually heard that as a quote. Cari McGee: Yeah. That's better on the side other of fear. Paul Casey: Everything you want is on the other side of fear. Yeah, yeah. That's great meme. And has that been true for your life? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, as I said earlier, I used to hate change. It was really in the last three years that I've changed a lot of stuff and became less resistant to change, and that's really when the growth started to happen. I'm in a place now where I didn't know I could be where things are fantastic and only getting better. Paul Casey: So if someone would say, "But Cari, I'm just scared. I see this obstacle in front of me," what would be a baby step that would get them? Either what's their self-talk need to be or what would you say to hit the go button for them? Cari McGee: One thing I heard a long time ago, which was really, really good was that as babies, we all learn to walk and what if the first time we learned to walk and we fell down, we just said to ourselves, "All right, well, I guess I'm not a walker." Right? Paul Casey: Yeah. Cari McGee: No, none of us does that because when we're babies, we don't understand that there are points where you get scared. Babies don't have fear like that. They're just like, "Okay, this is where I have to go." And you have to tap into that primal part of you that's just like, "All right, here we go. Let's go. Let's do it. I'm a baby and I'm moving forward." Paul Casey: Love it, love it. So how can our listeners best connect with you? Cari McGee: Call me, text me, email me. Phone is (509) 430-5342. Email is cari@carimcgee.com. So first, then first and last. Paul Casey: Fantastic. Well, thanks again for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great optimistic place and keep leading well. Cari McGee: Awesome. Thanks, Paul, so much. Paul Casey: Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. It's from The Wiseman Group. What's interesting is there's a term called an Accidental Diminisher so you can actually take a little test to see if you inadvertently are becoming an accidental diminisher of the people that you lead. Even though your heart's in the right place and you have good intentions, there are some things that we can do to actually diminish the people around us. Of course, the author is trying to get you to be a multiplier instead of a diminisher. So you can check that out at The Wiseman Group. Paul Casey: Again, this is Paul Casey, and I want to thank my guest, Cari McGee from Keller Williams for being here today on the Tri-City Influencer Podcast. We also want to thank our TCI sponsors and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible, so we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. It's Anthony D'Angelo. And he says, "Become addicted to constant and never ending self-improvement." So until next time, KGF, keep growing forward. Speaker 3: Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical tools and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their key desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Speaker 3: Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done everyday by offering you his free control my calendar checklist. Go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message to 72000 and type the word "growing." Paul Casey: The Tri-Cities Influencer podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe Strategies.

How do you build a successful eCommerce business that has attracted nearly 5 million visitors in a month? For Jerry Hum, it took a few failures and a couple of stumbles out of the gate with his cofounders before finding the winning combination of users, demand, and products all in one. Jerry is a co-founder and the Executive Chairman of Touch of Modern, a members-only e-commerce website and app focused on selling lifestyle products, fashion, and accessories to men. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jerry takes us through his early struggles and how he found the secret sauce to making his eCommerce platform one of the most popular among male shoppers. Plus he explains what metrics other eCommerce pros should be looking at, and gives some advice to other entrepreneurs. Key Takeaways: For a multi-brand company, customer retention and lifetime value is the critical metric to look at Build the primary platform where your primary customer prefers to buy Combine marketing engagement and transactional data to prevent high engagement high cost marketing yielding low sales volume --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible eCommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. This is Stephanie, your host of Up Next In Commerce. Today we have Jerry Hum. The co-founder and executive chairman of Touch Of Modern. Jerry, how's it going? Jerry: Pretty good. How are you? Thanks for- Stephanie: [crosstalk] good. Yeah, how's it going? So you're in a loft right now, right? In SF, living the quarantine life. Jerry: Yeah, in San Francisco. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: Yep. Stephanie: How- Jerry: [crosstalk] for a little longer than most other folks. Stephanie: Yeah. So what's your day look like with being sheltered in place and... I think San Francisco is even stricter than Palo Alto where you guys [inaudible] allowed to do even more than we are. Jerry: Yeah. Well, we actually started preparing for it a little bit earlier actually, just as it was making news headlines and most companies were still up and running. We were planning kind of contingencies and all that planning and seeing how work from home would be like if we had to do it. Luckily we came up with a plan just in time. We actually went into it before even California started making statements about it. So I think we are kind of in a pretty decent groove in terms of keeping the business running smoothly and all that. In terms of a day to day, I'm actually surprised as to maybe how engaged people have remained. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Being that we have to do it all through technology. I actually started thinking about it, why is it that work from home is almost a little bit easier now than it was in the past. And I think it's because when it's the only option then you just do it. Right? Stephanie: You have to make it work. Jerry: Yeah. It's not like if half the office is doing one thing and then... Or not like half the office. If most of the office is at work and a few people are work from home then it's actually more difficult because the people in the office are like, "Oh, I'll just wait for that person to get in or something." But if this is the only way that every one is communicating then it's actually fairly smooth. Obviously everything takes a little bit more time and all that. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: [inaudible] day is actually longer than usual. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: All things considered, I think it's working pretty well. Stephanie: Good. Yeah. Hopefully it will all come to a close soon. How have you all handled... I mean has there been any struggles, I'm imagining taking photos of your products and things like that? That's probably a very in-person type of thing that [inaudible] people have perspectives on and all want to help. How are you handling things like that with your business that seem pretty hard to do virtually? Jerry: Yeah. So luckily, some of our folks have set-ups at home. Stephanie: Good. Jerry: Yeah. Because usually, photographers, this is not just a job. It's also a passion and a hobby. Right. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So we've been able to make due... Obviously at a reduced capacity. Yeah. Stephanie: Yeah. Well, good. So maybe that's a good point to dive into what is Touch of Modern. If you were to explain it to the listeners and give us some background. Jerry: Touch of Modern is the only shopping destination that men visit daily. And we offer a [inaudible] mix of remarkable products across all categories and that you can use everyday.This could be anything from a flame thrower you can strap to your wrist, or the newest exercise gadget, or anything in between. Stephanie: Are women allowed? Because I was on there and I was like, "I want to buy some of this stuff." I would buy... Maybe not a flame thrower but there was some good stuff on there that I'm like, "I want this." Jerry: Of course, women are allowed. It's just kind of more... A little bit more of our differentiator. Because most E-commerce sights out there are catered toward women. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: [inaudible] we're not the only one but one of a few that really cater to men. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. It looks awesome. A lot of the products. I was afraid to hit buys right away. How did you come to create the idea of Touch of Modern? And I think I read it was the third... The third times a charm. That you had done three other things, or two other things before that until you got to Touch of Modern. What was that like? What was that journey like? Jerry: Yeah. I'll give you the long story here, maybe. Stephanie: Good. Jerry: [Four] founders, guys from New York. The business actually was a peer-to-peer experienced market place. And this is kind of similar to what Airbnb has now. Obviously they built that on top of their existing business but we were trying to start from scratch at the time. That was extremely difficult because you're telling folks to change their lifestyle. Right? If you need to suddenly offer a cooking class, that's not a easy thing to do if you don't have the customers for it. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Or the time for it. And then we're telling customers to come on this platform and book stuff. But if you don't have the activities, what is there to book? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So it becomes this chicken and egg problem. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: It came out of our own need because we were guys from New York, you're kind of looking for interesting things to do all the time, just in the city. Right? The second business was called Raven. Well, the first one was called [Scarra 00:05:24]. I don't know if I mentioned that. Second one was called Raven. That was a slight variation on the first. And that was we took out half of the equation because we realized, double sided marketplace, super hard. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: We started offering activities that already existed. This could be like hang gliding. This could be sky diving. This could also be day at the spa. Right. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We also layered on a recommendation algorithm where you could like stuff. And based on your activity, we would offer you a daily feed of different activities and things that were new to discover in your area. We got a lot of engagement out of that. People found really cool things. If you look at my feed versus somebody else's, it would be really different based on what we like. When we looked at it, it was like, oh this is a pretty accurate description of things I'm interested in and my hobbies and such. Right? Jerry: And that was difficult because people would then discover stuff but they wouldn't actually book it with us. They would just call directly [crosstalk 00:06:29]. Stephanie: Wow. Jerry: What we learned from that was, well, we need reason for people to transact. Right? And we need maybe something to make us relevant for right now. So the second generation of that business was actually arranging events where we built a mobile app as the early days of... Not the iPhone but when apps started getting the more complicated... Better than just the kind of beer pouring app. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Those simple things. Right? So we used Geofencing to create this thing where if you went within a certain perimeter of something going on, we would tell you about it. We'll alert you and be like, "Hey, like... Street fair over here or something over there." And that was really cool because there wasn't another app like that. At least that we know of... That we knew of at the time that was doing that. Also at the time, a lot of folks were moving to San Francisco. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Probably even more so than they are today. A ton of messages from people saying, "Wow, you're really helping me discover the city. Every weekend we pull this out and, you know, see what's going on." Especially because San Francisco is the type of city that always has something going on. Stephanie: Yeah. Like on the side streets, you're like, "There's a whole festival going on right now." Jerry: Yeah. So that was really cool but again, a lot of these things were free. So it wasn't there wasn't a real business model there. There's just a ton of engagement. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It seems like you guys are kind of ahead of your time with that. Because even when I'm hearing about that now, I'm like, oh, if you would have kept going with that one, Airbnb probably would have acquired you. Jerry: Yeah. Right. Stephanie: Oh, if you kept going with the Geofencing thing, Google would acquired you because I worked for Google Maps before this. Jerry: Oh, yeah. Stephanie: They're still trying to figure out how to show you where the festivals are, where the farmers markets are based on your location. So maybe you guys are just ahead of your time with everything. Jerry: Maybe. That would be the positive view of it. So I think the lesson we learned from that was... Incredibly hard to scale location based things. because you could sell out all the tickets to this one show or a certain percentage of it but there's unlimited margin and you're constricted by the location and therefore we couldn't justify the kind of business mechanics that were necessary to actually make that sustainable. I mean, it raised a ton of money. Right? And so this isn't going to get like... Where it wasn't like, hey, we're going to get to a billion people and then it's going to work. It's not like that. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So we were like, what were we good at and what were we not good at? We were really good at getting people engaged. Really good at discovery aspect of things. We just needed something more scalable to be the thing that we featured. And realized that, hey, products... You get scale with products. Right? Mass distribution and all that. There's real margin there because that's kind of built into the modal that [inaudible] already exists. Jerry: We had always kind of liked products, just as the people that we were. But we didn't want to touch it because we didn't want to deal with real world problems of moving things around, shipping, [crosstalk 00:09:46]- Stephanie: Yeah. Logistics. Jerry: Yeah. Logistics. Right? After going through the struggles of the first two business, we realized that things are not really... It's not rocket science. Right? This has been done. We started thinking about what kind of unique angle we could take at it. I remember we were in the living room and we're talking about speakers for some reason and who made the best speakers. Dennis had his idea. Jon had his idea. And then Steven, who's real audio files, was like, no, these are the best speakers. He knew all these brands that we didn't even know about. We knew the mass market brands but not the kind of stuff that he was into. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: He had all this knowledge. Okay, you win that debate. Right? And we realized that we have this thing that we geek out on. Right? Jon was really into cooking and he had these really expensive knives that he would keep in this [inaudible] that he would have to take out and show us. Dennis was really into outdoor activities and all the gear that's associated with that. I use to be an architect when I was in New York so I spent way too much money on furniture. So that was my thing. Right? And so everyone had our own thing. No one out there was catering to this desire or whatever it was that ties all these things together. Right? Jerry: So we just started sourcing things that we thought were cool. Hey, if we think it's cool, other people are going to think it's cool too. Right? It wasn't like a men thing. It wasn't even necessarily a discovery thing. It was just these were the things that we thought were cool. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Through that process, right away it kind of hit in a way that the other two businesses did not hit at all in two years. Right? Where day one we started getting real transactions and kind of buying activity. Right? Stephanie: How? How did you get buying on day one? How did people even find your website or know where to go? Jerry: We did not even have a website on the very first day. We actually... What happened was Dennis, who ran marketing, would just start running ads and would go to a landing- Stephanie: Okay. Facebook? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Or what kind of ads? Okay. Jerry: Facebook. Earlier in the days of Facebook too. I think a lot of what we did, now, can't be exactly replicated but there's probably some learnings to take from it. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So we basically just collected emails and say, "Hey, there's this thing that's coming soon." Right? I think [inaudible] probably remember years ago there was tons of these types of things that are just coming soon and you're like wow [crosstalk 00:12:39]. Stephanie: Yeah. That was the strategy back then of just like just put up a landing page and see if people want that fake product that you could create. I remember books where they would suggest that and I'm like, that's a good idea. Jerry: [crosstalk] that is more less of a pit. I mean, we were creating it. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: I'm not talking about like, let's just run ads and see if people like it. We were just building it at the time, that same time we were running ads against it. And basically we had an idea of what that metrics needed to look like in order for a business to work. Right? We just made assumptions down the whole funnel. Right? If we acquire an email for this much, and if this percent of folks convert, and assume a certain order value, and certain repeat rate then this is what our business would look like. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: And no data for anything outside of what it would cost to acquire an email. Basically, we knew the cost of that. Then we started sourcing products and building the website behind it. Then we just went down the funnel and firmed our assumptions. Sometimes they were better and sometimes they were just different. We kind of just proved it out from the top down. Stephanie: Got it. That's really cool. Has it always been a member's only platform? Has there ever been a time where people could just go to the website, the app, and just see the products without inputting their email? Jerry: Yeah. So, we require folks to input the email for the upfront reason that we are talking to... And this is also maybe one of our differentiators, is that we are not a clearance channel per se. We talk to vendors who have products that are new to market. Right? So they may have endeavors to go to traditional retail or something else, and they may not want their prices shown necessarily to everybody. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So that's one [inaudible] been the case. Stephanie: Got it. Okay. Cool. So when I was looking at your catalog and just seeing everything that you have, how do you go about curating something like that? I mean, it sounds easy in the early days of, oh, so and so likes knives so he pulled in his favorite knives. But I saw how many products you have on that page. Maybe it's like... How many a day do you release? Jerry: It's about 300 a day. It's quite a bit. Stephanie: How do you find 300, even a month, cool products that are so unique like that and keep up the level of quality that's on there? Jerry: We have a team of about 30 or so folks on the sources and buying team and they're out just looking for what's cool and unique. And obviously we have our standards and things that we look for and they just go out and try to find things that meet those standards. And they also try to find things that are... that we've just never seen or heard of before. Right? Then we bring it back, it goes through an approval process, and then we put it up and run it. It's fairly simple. Stephanie: Does it still go through you to approve of every single product? Jerry: Not every single product. Stephanie: No. Jerry: In the early days it was and now we have a team of folks that can do it. Stephanie: Got it. And you also have an app that people can buy from. Is it the same functionality? Does the website mimic the app or how did you think about expanding to mobile? Jerry: It's mostly the same functionality. We expanded to mobile fairly early on. Like I said, our previous companies were... We were already experimenting with mobile back then. I don't think we had one on Scarra but Raven, we definitely did. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: That was a core part of it. So we went to mobile pretty early on and I don't think we knew this per se, but it was interesting because men tend to be more comfortable buying on mobile too. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: And maybe that influenced part of our strategy or vice versa. It seems to actually be the more popular platform for us. Both in terms of actual use engagement and revenue as well. Stephanie: Okay. And do you see different customer profiles when it comes to the mobile user versus the website users? And do you cater to them differently based on that? Or personalize things different? Jerry: No. The experiences are pretty congruent on both sides. The mobile users tend to have a little bit of a higher value. But that could also be because you kind of have to self select into mobile. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: You go on to the website and then you're all, hey, we're really into it. And then you go on the app. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: It's kind of hard to say what's [inaudible 00:17:21]. Stephanie: Go it. Very cool. So in the early days you were doing Facebook ads. And I think I read that you were doing TV ads as well at a certain point. How has your marketing strategy evolved over... since you started? Jerry: Yeah. So in the early days of Facebook it was like a wild, wild west. Right. Big brands weren't really on it. So it was a great time for companies like us. And this is why I say a lot of it can't really be replicated today exactly the same way we did it back then. So when a lot of competition started moving in, in order to compete, we kept broadening our category just... I mean, just becoming a stronger business. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So it would be a lot harder to start with just a handful of products the same way we did. When we started, I think we launched with 12 products and that was it. It was like 12 individual products, not twelve vendors, just 12 [inaudible] things you could buy. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: That was enough to make it work. Probably impossible now to do that. As the business grew we could support more channels. We went into Google and then eventually got to the size where we can actually start experimenting with TV. I think also, TV has evolved over time as well because of visual advertising. Because so many brands see the benefits of digital advertising. You can track things and kind of go after a more specific audiences. That TV now kind of has changed to have some of those properties as well. So we use them both kind of together and they enhance each other. You can tell when, if you're spending too much on TV and not enough on digital, then TV starts to suffer. If you spend too much on digital and not enough on TV then the opposite happens. Stephanie: Got it. How do you find that ROI of the campaigns? Then decide, okay let's scale back on TV and increase mobile ads or something. What metrics are you looking for? Jerry: We actually have the exact same metrics on TV as we do on digital. Right? And this is just... cost acquired customer and lifetime value and all that. The way we track it is now you can know exactly when your spot airs and basically we have a baseline of traffic that we know that, hey, if nothing is airing, this is what are organic traffic looks like. Right. So when we air a spot, we can see that spike. We do a [inaudible] analysis to say this much of the traffic following that airing is probably through the TV. Stephanie: Got it. Okay. Very cool. So when it comes to metrics, when you think about E-commerce, what metrics do you think are most important to keep track of? Or how do you define success when it comes to E-commerce? Jerry: Yeah. There's a ton of stuff. I mean, it really depends... It depends a lot on what kind of product you're selling. Right? I'll give you two extremes. One extreme is like us, and for us we are a multi-brand retailer. Right? You can buy a number of things and also we change our selection everyday. So you can keep coming back to keep buying different things. Right? Jerry: So what's important to us is lifetime value and retention. Right? How fast do you break even on the cost to acquire a customer? At the end of the day, that's kind of like the most basic thing for any kind of company in our space. But the products that you're selling may influence how you look at it. Right? If you're selling cars or mattresses or something that you just don't buy very often, then you may think about it very differently because it's just not feasible to thing that the retention rate is going to be nearly what ours is. Right. Or at least not be frequent enough for you to be able to plan your marketing spin around. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Go it. How do you keep your customers... How do you retain them and keep them coming back? Versus acquiring new customers. How do you think about that mix? Jerry: I mean, you always have to acquire new customers. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: I think [inaudible] is just like a natural part of business. You can't deny that it's there. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: [inaudible] you can be great but there's going to be some folks that it's not for. Right? It's not like 100 percent of your folks are going to stay with you forever. Even the folks that do eventually they may change taste or things like that may happen. So in terms of splits, I think that also varies on performance for us. For us we care about kind of a payback on the spend that we're doing and pending on where we see better performances kind of where we'll weight it. And also kind of seasonally because I would say for retail there's holiday season and all that, you may want to do one thing versus another. But that's going to be really specific to the kind of company that you're running. Stephanie: Yeah. So when it comes to changes in spending pattern, what have you seen with everything from COVID-19 going on? Like what kind of differences? I saw you have a... I think a stay-at-home section or something similar like that. Shelter in place, on your website. How have you seen things change since that started? Jerry: People's priorities definitely change very quickly. Luckily for us because we can change our assortment everyday, we were actually able to adapt really quickly. We got that store up from... From when we said we were going to do it to when it was up was a matter of... Like the morning to that afternoon. Stephanie: That's impressive. How did you line up all the vendors? I mean, to me that's like a long process of picking the vendors and picking out the product and making sure they can ship enough, depending on demand. How did you get all that lined up so quickly? Jerry: The thing is... I mean, when this first started happening especially. And we need to agree now still, it seemed as if time had just sped up suddenly. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: Things that would take an entire quarter could happen now in like a day. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. It has to. Jerry: Everyone was wondering what would be different? All of our vendors, suddenly their retail channels dried up. Right? And they had to move things around. So we just called them up and said, "Hey, this is what we're doing." Obviously most of the folks that were on there, day one, were folks we've worked with already in the past. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Or coincidentally we were talking to and hey, this fits, kind of thing. Right? It was tapping existing relationships. And parallel, the design and engineering teams were building up the store. We were using some existing infrastructure that we could repurpose and re-skin for the store. It was an amazing feeling. I didn't think we were going to do it in a day but it happened. Stephanie: Yeah. And are you changing that catalog? Like each day or week or... Jerry: [crosstalk] as well. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: Got it. Does it... How do you think now your company is going to change based on now you know how quick things can move if it has to? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Do you think that your internal policies and all that stuff could change going forward based on how quickly you can see thing go through? And maybe seeing things aren't a priority or approval for certain things might not be as high priority as you thought they were or... What's your view on that? Jerry: Yeah. I mean, in terms of policies first... I think in more so than anything it was like validation of a lot of policies that we had in place. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: It was confirmation that we could move quickly. Because we always thought we could. I think that's always been our thing. One of the questions people always ask is how does a company that sells premium products, how does that respond in a recession? Right? This isn't a recession but it's a time when people's priorities are going to shift maybe away from things that were... seems more frivolous to things that are now more essential. Right? For us, we always said, well you know, we can respond quickly but it's never been proven. And now it's been proven to an extent that we can respond quickly. And we can move to things that are more essential. It's still essential with a twist. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: It's still within our brand. And it's going to bring a bit of uniqueness and delight into people's lives that are staying at home. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: I think it's validation that the modal can move quickly. The way we thought. And that our brand can extend to the different categories. And address people's needs as they change. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think these buying behaviors are going to last for a while? And if so, are you shifting maybe your thoughts on what Touch of Modern looks like in 2025, 2030? Is it kind of having you re-think things a bit? Jerry: I think that people's buying behaviors will change because I don't think it's going to go back to exactly the way it was. You know. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I agree. Jerry: Yeah. People are going to be much more... And I hope they're going to be much more health conscience. I hope that this introduces some good habits. Right? I think people take a bit of time to reflect and think about things like self improvement. Maybe they didn't have the time to do before because I think some people staying home are going to realize like, "Hey, there's this new hobby that I've always been wanting to do that I can do now." Or, "Maybe I should drink less." Whatever it is that they discover when they change their lifestyle, that there's actually parts of this that are good, that they can take away and keep with them. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Except for the drinking lessening. I think that one's going the wrong way. Jerry: Wait. I don't know. I don't know how some people are- Stephanie: Happy hour time keeps getting earlier and earlier. I'm like, I need to set up rules around this house. Oh my gosh. It's only like two o'clock, what am I doing? Jerry: Well, I mean, another silver lining here is that I think people now have actually seen how quickly the environment can actually improve just with... And in a short period of time. Right? Because in the past I think it always seemed like this insurmountable thing to certain folks where it's like, "Yeah, you know, we can recycle and do this, but we've been doing that for a long time and nothing has really changed. It's actually been getting worse." Right? Jerry: And then suddenly you take a step back and it's like, hey, things change quickly. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So maybe it's not as impossible as we thought. We just have to be deliberate about habits that we have and maybe where we spend our energy. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes a little shake up like that can be good for people and the economy. And good things could come from it. Even though there's a lot of bad going on as well. I think, yeah, it depends where you're looking, I guess. So when... Oh, go ahead. Jerry: Yeah, I mean, [inaudible] other wise it's just all bad. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. No, everything can't be all bad. There has to be something good out there. That's what I'm hoping for anyways. So when it comes to outside of Touch of Modern, and more of the E-commerce industry as a whole, what destructions do you see are coming? Especially with COVID-19 now. We're seeing some of that already happening. But what are you betting on in the future... Yeah, coming? Jerry: Well, I'm going to bet probably more on E-commerce. Right? I think people are going to build habits from shopping at home that are not going to go away. Right? I think certain things that maybe people use to only buy in person are like, hey, I can buy this at home. It's actually a pretty decent experience, probably going to keep that habit even after this. And I think people are going to maybe focus a little more on preparedness for things than they have in the past. I think human nature is that you never think that these kind of outlier type of situations can happen, but they do. Be that once... Once in a century, I'd never think about it. But a person lives a long time. Right? Jerry: You may see a once in a century thing in your life. That's probably going to happen for a lot of people. Right? And this is that thing for us. Stephanie: Yeah. Agree. It seems like there's going to be a lot of new people coming online who never were online before. And it brings me to a point I saw on your website that I liked a lot is kind of meeting a consumer where they're at. There's two things I saw on your website that I thought would be perfect for a new consumer who doesn't normally buy online. The first one was you have a toggle button on your homepage that says, "View as." And you're about to actually change how you view products on the page, depending on what you prefer. Stephanie: So I thought that was genius. Any insight behind that? Or any thoughts when you were creating that? Because I haven't seen many websites allow you to toggle that view to what you prefer. Jerry: Yeah. It's just like a preference thing. Right? Our experience on the landing page is we just drop you right into our offering. Right? It's not like a landing page where you then click in and search and do all this other stuff. Mostly E-commerce is catered to search. Right? You just go on the page and automatically thing is you type in what you're looking for. Right? That's not really our experience. It's there but it's kind of secondary. It's mostly a browse and kind of meander your way through our offering. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We let people maybe pick the way they want to meander. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). How do people meander through 300 hundred things? Because I was going through and I wanted to look at all of them but after a little I'm like, oh, this is too many. And I kind of wished maybe like... What did I see? There was this screen that extended your screen. So you have your MacBook or something and you plug in a little cord and you have an extension of your screen, which is awesome. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: I'm like, that should have been shown to me first because I want to buy that right now. Whereas, what was the second thing? It was showing maybe like an expensive bottle of wine, which I'm like, oh, push that down some because I'm not fancy like that. How do you think about helping people get through these products each day? Jerry: Well, I think your first time experience is going to ne a little bit different than your second and your third time. About almost half of our users, and I'm not talking about customers but just people that visit, will actually come back at least once a week. And so- Stephanie: Wow. Jerry: Yeah. And so if you're doing that and then our most frequent visitors are coming back every single day, then it's not as hard to browse through everything. Because then you can browse through it and then you'll hit a point where, okay, now I'm looking at yesterday's stuff. Right? And so, if you keep up with it everyday then it's not actually a ton of stuff. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: But for your first time, you're looking at all the days that have accumulated in the past five days. And certain events will also extend beyond that. I think the first time experience is like, wow, this is a ton of stuff. And also because you probably want to click through every single thing. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: But after awhile you're probably just looking for the things that catch your eyes. Or you're just going to scan and be like, okay, that's really cool. That's really cool. But you're not necessarily going to check out every single thing. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. [inaudible] Jerry: Also, on the mobile app, the scrolling screen is just much slicker and smoother too. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: I think you might just browse there. A lot of folks also will tell us that it's just something that they peruse through when they're waiting for something or commercial break or something like that. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The second thing I saw that I really liked, which I also haven't seen... Maybe I'm just not on enough websites. I don't know. But I was looking through... It was an about shipping section. And it showed a visual of what does your shipping status mean. Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: And it just... It showed everything from like, we place our PO, and than it goes to the supplier, and here's what it means if you see... I don't know the whole... I can't remember the whole layout. But I thought that was genius showing it in a visual format. And I'm sure that probably brings down a lot of customer support emails. But tell me how you all are thinking about giving that transparency to the customer. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: And hopefully prevent a million a emails of, hey, where's my product. Jerry: This is another product of our business modal. Or kind of what differentiates us a bit. We sell across all categories. Right? Meaning that we have to be able to accommodate all the categories. So it's not like, a company that just sells furniture ships one way. A company that just sells clothing ships another way. Right? And so their customers go there expecting a certain experience. A company that sells everything needs to ship all the different ways. Right? So a customer might not know exactly what this shipping process is going to look like when you buy something because they may not realize... I mean it's obvious now when I talk about it but if your company goes on a site, you're going to expect shipping experience to be generally consistent. But for us it's like, we're going to ship furniture differently, then we're going to ship clothing differently, and then we're going to ship, you know, this cup, right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: And so for us it's just more like informing the customer, this is what's going to happen. This is what it's going to look like. And this is what the different steps mean. For us, we found that more so than anything, they just want to know what's going on. That it's moving and... like internal. Yeah.   Stephanie: How about when it comes to relaying the value of the product? How do you convince someone that something is really good? Because I don't think I saw reviews on the website. Unless I missed them.   How do you... That's usually the first thing I look for. Is it five stars? You know, I want to see if someone has the same kind of experience that I'm looking for. How do you tell someone something's valuable without that? Jerry: Yeah. I mean, a lot of what we do is educating the customer. Right? Because a lot of these things they never heard of, they didn't know it exist. I wish we could say we do an awesome job at it and we provide all these reviewed stuff but... And we vet the product. We'll go and look at the reviews and we'll test the product and all that. But it does take a leap of faith in the first purchase and maybe you get a learned trust after some time, that like we've done the research. Jerry: Because if you go and research these products you're going to find that they're pretty highly regarded. Stephanie: Yep. Which I think actually might be the modal that it's headed is just show me one or two people at your company that I trust to review product, and I trust them. Because a lot of reviews, I mean, at least on other places... Marketplaces and things like that. They're paid reviews. And so you go through and you're like, well, I can't trust 90 percent of these anyways. So I think it is kind of shifting towards just give me the one person that I can trust. Or the one company that I can trust to curate something for me. And I know if it's coming from them, it's going to be quality and good. Stephanie: Are there any big transformations that are going to be on your plate after the environment kind calms down? Or any big projects that you plan on starting or changing within your strategy? Jerry: Yeah. We're working on shipping things a lot quicker. The reason being that a lot of our products do take a little bit longer because we have these various modals that we work with. And we found that when we can ship things more quickly people are generally way more happy and more likely to come back and purchase. Stephanie: Got it. How can you speed up the shipping for... when it's a bunch of different, I'm guessing, retailers who all their own different practices? How can you kind of know that you can speed that up and make it all pretty uniform? Jerry: Consign the product. Right? So they will house it in our warehouse and we essentially act as their distribution center. Stephanie: Oh. Okay, cool. Tell me a little bit about that. Do you have to buy warehouses in different parts of California? Or how is that modal set up? Jerry: Right now our warehouse actually has a good amount of space. And we've actually developed our distribution system to fit with our model, right, which is that we run things in these short spurts. Right? And what's cool about that is that things come in and they go out really quickly so we're not sitting on mountains of inventory. I mean, we're nearly inventory-less. We're very inventory light. We don't actually require that much space to run a lot of products. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So right now, for the foreseeable future, it's to keep it within our distribution center. It's a long winded way of saying... Stephanie: Okay. Got it. How did you learn to do that? When I even think about shipping products to a warehouse and making sure everything goes well, how did you learn best practices around... Yeah, around all that? Jerry: Yeah. This is interesting because when we first started we were shipping our own products from day one. And so- Stephanie: From your house? Or from where? Jerry: From the house. [inaudible 00:41:45]. Stephanie: That's awesome. Jerry: ... of just tons of boxes in the living room. And then when the FedEx guy came we would... The first day we just piled it in the lobby and our neighbors got really pissed at us for doing that. Stephanie: I can imagine. Jerry: So the second day, we knew when the person was coming and we just did like bucket brigade style where we just passed packages from our living room down to the... Basically we had our four founders there. And we would just pass it down, bucket brigade style, down the stairs as quickly as the guy could load it into the truck. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Jerry: And then the first day we finally opened the office, we set aside half of it for fulfillment. And the reason why we did that was because we realized our model is just very different than a traditional pick and pack modal, which is what most 3PLs... What's called a third party logistics provider. At least back then, they were mostly doing pick and pack type operations. And it didn't really fit our modal and we realized that at a certain scale we'd have to bring it in house. It's better to learn it now than to try to take it in when it's already at scale and have huge disruptions in customer experience. So basically, we just started doing it at a really small scale and built our operations all custom to that. So our, kind of, back office technology is all custom. Right? So everything ties together and it suits us in a way that... If you went with a just a third party provider, it probably wouldn't work as well. Stephanie: Very cool. Well, definitely have to get that picture from you so you can post it somewhere to show people because that's... Yeah, a really fun story of starting out. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: What do you see for new people starting out, building their stores and all that? What is some advise that you give them? Or best practices or things that you did that you're like, don't do that, that actually worked out really bad. Jerry: So this probably goes back to your first question about the two businesses that we had before. We made some classic mistakes. Right? Which is, I think the big one is you build the whole thing and you spend like a year building it and then you think that one day you're going to open and people are just going to come in. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Then you start thinking, hey, maybe we just keep tweaking the product and eventually people will come. Right? Really all you're doing is staying busy. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Because if the demand is not there, it's not going to suddenly show up, almost like the world changes, right? And you would be at the right place at the right time. So it's prove out the demand first. And then when the demand is there, you can take your time with the product. Right? It's like, you don't want to be in a place where you're convincing yourself that the reason you're not succeeding is because the product is not quite right. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: If there's a real need for it you can come out with something that's pretty minimal and just addresses the core need. And it doesn't even have to run perfectly and be totally ironed out. And that will give you enough signal that there's something there that people want. And then you can find it down the road and keep expanding your market to... [inaudible] but this is now more mass market. And so on and so forth. Right? Because the early folks, they want your service, whatever it is, so much that they're going to put up a little bit with you in the early days of like not having it all totally together. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk] Jerry: And so... Yeah. Yeah. You got to prove out the demand first before you totally refine the product. Stephanie: Cool. And what about when it comes to technology? How do you think about... It sounds like you guys did a lot of just in-house... everything. In-house logistics. In-house website stuff. What would you tell someone right now? Should they try and build things in-house? Or... Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Jerry: It's easier now to build anything in-house than it use to be. Right? Back then it was actually a little more difficult because a lot of the frameworks that are being used today were really fresh back then. Right? So people weren't learning it in school. They had to teach themselves. There weren't the coding bootcamps back then either. So engineers were still a little bit hard to come by. Now, resources are there and everything. Jerry: We were lucky because we did our own coding in the first versions of the site. It was me and Steven, our CTO. More him than me but we built the early versions of that and didn't hire engineers for a long time. Maybe longer than... we probably should have hired engineers a little bit earlier than we did. But we got by with just two folks building stuff. Right? But you also learn a lot. You are kind of like more intimate with the product, even today, just because we have that history with it. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: And I think one of the things that's really important to us early on was the data ownership. Right? We don't want to have all these different things talking to each other and not have a clear picture of what's going on. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We don't want any black boxes. There's things that if we don't have access to all the data then we're just going to cut that service and we're going to build it ourselves. Stephanie: Got it. Very cool. Yeah. Great advice. So with a couple minutes left, we're going to move on to... it's called the lightning round. Brought to you by [Sales Force Commerce Cloud 00:47:37]. Sales Force Commerce Cloud. This is when I shoot a question over your way and you have a minute or less to say the first answer that comes to mind. Jerry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: Are you ready? Jerry: Okay. Stephanie: Dun, dun, dun, dun. We'll start with the easy ones first and then we'll end with the harder one. Sound good? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: All right. What's up next for dinner? Jerry: Left-over Chinese food. Some more. Stephanie: Yep. What's up next that you're buying from Touch of Modern? Jerry: What am I buying next? Well, I'll have to see what comes up next. It changes everyday so I don't know yet. Stephanie: All right. Well, what did you just buy recently? Or what's your most recent purchase? Jerry: My most recent purchase was, funny enough, it is a cast-iron rice pot from [Le Creuset 00:48:22]. Stephanie: Okay. Have you tried it out yet? Jerry: No, it hasn't gotten here yet. It was very recent. This was probably... couple days ago. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next on Netflix or Hulu queue? Jerry: I actually don't have either. I don't even own [inaudible] TV. I don't watch a whole lot of stuff, actually. Stephanie: Okay. Hey, that's an answer. What's up next in your travel destinations after the environment calms down a bit? Jerry: I think an easy one from California would be Hawaii. I like to go there to relax and it's a relatively short trip. So I like to go there [inaudible 00:49:05]. Yeah. Stephanie: What's your favorite island there? Have you been? Jerry: Yeah. I go to Oahu fairly frequently. I really like Kauai, I've been there once to do a hike. Stephanie: Yeah. That's my favorite island with all the waterfalls there and the crazy hikes that- Jerry: [crosstalk] been to the weeping walls? Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Yep. Oh, yeah. I want to go back though. We were only there for a couple days and I feel like there's so many different hikes and waterfalls and just things to see there. I mean, it's... Yeah, like a jungle. It's awesome. On to the hard question. What's up next for E-commerce pros? Jerry: E-commerce pros. Hmm. Man. What's next for the pros? I think, I mean, it's going to be adapting to the changes in customer behavior that are coming out of this. Whatever that is. I don't have a crystal ball for that one. Stephanie: Got it. Hey, that's an answer. All right, Jerry. Well, this has been a fun interview. For everyone who hasn't gone and checked out Touch of Modern, you should. It has really fun products on there. And yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Jerry: Thanks for having me.    

Atrium Health doctor Mark Vanderwel answers questions on the minds of many parents these days. We will be adding a transcription later today. Quick turn around on this episode! If you saw the original Facebook live, skip ahead 17 minutes - it dropped out after some audio issues but Stacey & Mark picked it back up again, off of FB. You can watch the full interview here Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods real food you feel good about eating by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:19 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:24 Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the show. So glad to have you here. I hope these episodes are helping. Today we are talking with a pediatric endocrinologist starting off by talking about Covid 19, of course, and things that people with diabetes specifically type one needs to keep in mind but then going down the line of listener questions things that my local Facebook group chimed in with things that the diabetes connections group chimed in with. Because if you're not seeing your endocrinologist for longer than expected, which is the case for a lot of us kids and adults, what should you You'll be doing and that's a lot of what we talked about what to do in between how to make sure that you are taking care of what you need to take care of some things you might not have thought about. And just a great chat with Dr. Mark Vanderwel, this was originally done as a Facebook Live Alright, that's only half the truth. This was originally done as a stream yard which is a an audio and video hosting system hosted Facebook Live, which crapped out halfway through and then mark and I jumped onto zoom and record it that way. So the whole video I kind of stitched it together. The whole video is up on YouTube, on diabetes connections there. It is also on our Facebook page. And here is the audio. That's what we're running is the audio of the initial Facebook Live and then everything that you didn't hear. So if you watch the Facebook Live already, the new stuff is about 17 minutes in from the beginning of the interview. If you want to skip ahead, I'm not coming back at the end of the interview. I do want to say, though, that I appreciate all of the messages I'm getting about, you know, putting out episodes. Look, we're all looking for things to do at our homes. We're all looking for good, reliable information. I am hoping to do more episodes like this more zoom Facebook stuff. So let me know what you'd like to hear. I've also been collecting audio from you from people in the audience. And I'm going to be releasing that episode and kind of figuring out how to use that great audio people just keep me posted on what's happening in their homes and what's on their minds. So I'm not really sticking to a schedule. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry, if you were expecting every episode on Tuesday, and sometimes on Thursdays like we normally do, but I don't know about you. I've already lost all track of days of the week. So we're just gonna put out episodes when they're ready to go. And if you want to still listen on Tuesdays, that's awesome. If you want to let me know that that is or isn't working for you. That's great, too. I just think we all need to be here for each other in these wild times. Thank you so much. All right, so here is my talk with atrium health Dr. Mark Vanderwel, welcome to everybody who is watching. I'm so glad to have you with me for this little bit of an unusual circumstances bear with us. This is the first time I've done something like this. I am Stacey Simms, the host of diabetes connections and with me is Dr. Mark Vanderwel, a pediatric endocrinologist here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area with atrium Health. Dr. Vanderwel. Thanks for joining me,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:26 Stacey. It's an honor as always,   Stacey Simms  3:29 well, we should say before we get going, we do have some disclaimers. But the very first thing in full disclosure that people need to know is that this is my son's endocrinologist and I've known Dr. V, as I've called him many times on the show and in my book for more than 13 years now. So we've never done an interview.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:48 Yeah. At least recorded interview for for diabetes connections. We did some back in your radio days. Oh, that's right.   Stacey Simms  3:56 Yeah, I thought you were implying that I like interviewed you when I All right.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:02 So it has been a long time since we've communicated it never on this platform.   Stacey Simms  4:05 Well, I really appreciate you jumping in because as you know, people have a lot of questions nervous times right now. So the The first thing we need to do is is do some disclaimers, obviously, while Dr. Vanderwel is our pediatric endocrinologist, he is not yours. So please, any comments questions that you may have addressed them to your own physician as well? Nothing I will put words in your mouth here, nothing that Dr. Vanderwel says today should be taken as your own personal medical advice. We're here to get general answers to general questions. And that's really about it. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, I think. But as you listen and watch at home, just you know, let's use some common sense here.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:43 Yes, I'm not speaking for the pediatric endocrinology community in general. I'm speaking for myself and different physicians have different perspectives on how they take care of kids with diabetes. Different physicians will have different perspectives on Covid 19. And what I am saying is my perspective And it will not even apply universally to all of the patients I take care of because we know you are all different. Similarly, I am not a pediatric infectious disease specialist. I'm not I am not an epidemiologist, and I'm not a fortune teller. And I think we're all worried and we do not know what's going to happen in the future. And a lot of what we're talking about is just predictive, then we don't know.   Stacey Simms  5:21 All right, so good things to keep in mind. Also, this is first being broadcast live on Facebook. If for some reason as you're watching it, just bonks out or something crazy happens. We're recording the audio, this will be rebroadcast as a podcast, it may be broadcast in video in some other forms. If you have questions or comments. We're using technology called stream yard, and I can see your comments on Facebook, but we're not actually on Facebook. So there's a big delay, most likely, so bear with us. And I do have a lot of questions that I took in advance. So if we don't get to your question today, I promise it may not be with Dr. Vanderwel schedules permitting, but we are going to be addressing Senior questions going forward. And you know, we're just here to see what we can do. So we want to just jump right in. Sure. Let's go. All right. So my first question is really just about what you're hearing these days because I'm talking to you at home, you're not in the office offices is closed, but are you still getting close? Okay, so what are people asking?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  6:16 Yeah, so, you know, I think the the primary things are, will we still have appointments? And the answer is we will eventually have virtual appointments. Although a lot of people will also need to be rescheduled, we don't only take care of kids with diabetes, and there are some conditions that we do need to see face to face. In general though, I think most of our kids with Type One Diabetes will be able to seen by a virtual visit, and we'll talk a little bit about that in just a minute. We do still have nurses answering phone calls in our office, I'm not sure what other offices are doing. So we have nurses answering phone calls. We have a physician that's on call 24 seven for hospital based medicine. And so we will we are creating a schedule. That's why our office is closed. We're working on developing virtual visits. And we've never done this before the platform that atrium uses was originally designed for perhaps five, six pediatricians to use to handle only general pediatric calls. And now this platform is being spread out to be used by pediatric specialists, as well as general pediatricians. And I think more than 100 physicians and, uh, and other providers are going to be on this platform. So we're still learning how to do it. And that's why we canceled appointments for a few weeks, but we will have virtual visits up and running hopefully, by next week, Tuesday,   Stacey Simms  7:34 because we're going to be in that soup, right? Yeah.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:38 Your name on my schedule when I was telling everyone that exactly.   Stacey Simms  7:43 Alright, well, I won't call your office and ask what you're doing with me. I will let them reach out to us. When you're talking about virtual and again, this is kind of specific to your office. I don't even know yet. Do we on the other side have to do anything yet or you'll read? Yeah, we'll watch. No,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:58 we we Will for our type one diabetes patients will likely have a medical assistant call you first maybe on the day of the appointment maybe beforehand to review any changes in medications, any new allergies, the types of things they usually ask you while they were checking you back in. And then in preparation for the phone call with a physician, we are going to ask you to gather diabetes data for us whether it's a pump, download a CGM, download a meter download, and that'll be the main thing that we as physicians will review. So we'll tell you more. We'll try to talk through a little bit more about how to do that. Although hopefully you all know how to do that. The physician will also will hopefully again, this is all new. We'll have all that information online.   Stacey Simms  8:42 If you're watching, you kind of saw me roll my eyes there. Dr. Vanderwel knows this but it's a little embarrassing to admit, I never upload anything in advance. I tell them please don't be mad at me. I think the only time I ever logged into T Connect is to upgrade the pump. So   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  8:57 well you know, I think the thing is, we We'll be able to get that data without, without advanced uploading, I don't want to come that 100%. But I think if your data is there, we should be able to access it. But we're gonna learn that over the next three to five days.   Stacey Simms  9:12 That's what we're all be learning it, I am sure. Um, in terms of questions that people have in between these appointments, you know, one that came to mind this morning was, you know, if I, if I need refills, if I'm worried about supplies, are you here? I know most people just call their physician pharmacies are open, but are you hearing anything about issues, shortages, that sort of thing with supplies   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  9:35 whatsoever, and I hope we don't, um, you know, Covid 19 is going to affect people in every sector. And I hope we don't get to a stage where there's problems with pharmaceutical production at this point, there is no anticipated problem with production of insulin production of test strips production with any other diabetes related spies. And so No, I do not foresee that as a problem. I know there's the temptation to stockpile And that's one of the things that we've seen in the general public, obviously, with toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc. And there's that desire Should I stockpile my insulin? Well, we can't commit insurance fraud. And so as physicians, I cannot write a prescription to your pharmacy saying suddenly that a child who used to use 20 units of insulin a day is all of a sudden requiring 200 units of insulin per day, so that your insurance will cover additional insulin, I can't do that. That's illegal. And so we will be honest with the pharmacies. I'm not sure how you can get extra insulin just in case that might be something better to work with your pharmacy in terms of what they will cover or what they will allow your insurance to cover. But I do not foresee a deficiency in any diabetes related supplies.   Stacey Simms  10:45 Let's jump in and talk about Covid 19 best that we can. One of the questions that seems to be coming up over and over again is you know, we've all seen in the early days of this at least, the charts that came in from China and Italy saying they're the comorbidities and diabetes Sure, can you do you know what that means? Because one of the questions was, is it all type two is it you know, work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  11:06 Right so earlier this morning I saw some data recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine related to the children 10 and under. And the only fatality in the Chinese data that was published was a 10 month old, who had had intussusception, which is basically when your intestines telescope on each other. And so the child was already previously ill because of that, and there were no other fatalities in that population under age 10. I do not have the data for other age groups stratified out but that was what I saw on the New England Journal of Medicine earlier today. When the word diabetes is used, obviously, that is a big word and often refers to both type one and type two diabetes. And so as far as I can tell from all the Chinese data, when it says diabetes is referring to the big group of both and everyone's worried at greater risk, because I have type one diabetes, or let's face it type two diabetes? And the answer is, we do not think that people with type one or type two diabetes are at any greater risk of contracting Covid 19 than the general population. So there's no increased risk of picking up this virus as far as we know. Now data changes every day. That's the caveat here. We are still learning but at this point, there's no reason to think that people with diabetes type one or two are more likely to get Covid 19. Just like any virus, whether it's the flu, whether it's the cold, being sick, when you have diabetes makes taking care of diabetes more difficult, and we see that frequently during flu season, that when people are feeling sick, and they may not be eating or drinking quite as well, they have the predisposition to go into diabetic ketoacidosis. And so my answer to how do people with type one diabetes are people who have children who have type one diabetes, better take care of their children, either if They have been exposed to the virus or if they are already showing symptoms of a viral infection. And the answer is us you're sick. And by Sick Day protocol, I mean check for ketones. Even if your child's blood sugar is 124, you can still get ketones if they are not eating or drinking very well. So remember, ketones are what happened, or what happens when your muscles become desperate for energy. And usually with people with diabetes that happens when you don't have enough insulin in your system to help your body take the sugar out of the bloodstream and get it into the muscle cell to be used for energy. But sometimes ketones can happen if you're just not eating or drinking very well. And so ketones can happen even with a blood sugar 124 if your child has been sick, or if she is vomiting or if he is not eating very well because he feels sick. ketones also can be happening more often in the presence of fever. So although as far as we know right now, nausea and vomiting are not necessarily symptoms of Covid 19 like they are the flu. For example, fever is When you develop fever, that can also cause greater metabolic need, your muscles become more desperate for energy that can lead to the production of ketones and cause an increased risk of diabetic ketoacidosis. So my summary is related to kovat, 19 and diabetes, your child is not at greater risk, their immune system should still work just fine to fight off the virus However, they are at greater risk for developing diabetic ketoacidosis in the context of a viral illness.   Stacey Simms  14:29 A couple of follow up questions on that with keep checking for ketones. Do you recommend a keto blood meter? Are you comfortable with sticks and easily?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  14:40 Yeah, I mean, most people check urine for ketones a blood ketone meter can give you more up to date information, for example, that tells you what's in your blood sugar level. That's what's in your blood right now. Whereas your urine is often saying, well, we made this urine an hour ago and it's been sitting in the bladder for an hour so it's not as up to date as before. glucometer as a blood ketone meter is, but still I think you can get the information you need from, from urine, ketosis, I don't feel you have to rush out and get a blood ketone checker just because of our current situation. I mean,   Stacey Simms  15:13 I'll be honest with you, and I don't know if this is true confessions time, we've never we've never purchased a blood ketones. This was the time I thought maybe, you know, the back of my head was like, should I get on Amazon? And then I got on Amazon, and there were so many and I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna buy a terrible one. So, um, stick with what we know maybe for me?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:31 Yeah, I mean, there are many other things to worry about. And if you felt comfortable checking your child's urine for ketones, there's no need to suddenly change to use a blood glucose blood ketone meter.   Stacey Simms  15:42 Well, he's 15. So maybe,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:43   Stacey Simms  15:46 I'm sorry, this if you're just joining us, we did have a bunch of disclaimers that this is not medical advice you should be taking personally, but this is my son's pediatric endocrinologist. So I might sneak in some personal questions. We'll see. But the follow up question. fever. And then I'm going to ask you that question about repro fantasy. Before I even get to that one, do you recommend? I've heard that sometimes it's better to let the fever go, you know, not to 104 but to 101, things like that.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  16:17 That is a great question Stacy and I am no longer a general I should say this. I am board certified in general pediatrics, but I have not practiced general pediatrics for 15 years. However, that all being said, fevers makes you uncomfortable. When your temperature is high, you don't feel good, but many people are excessively afraid of fever as something that can hurt you, either in the short term or the long term and in general fever just makes you uncomfortable. So when we're sick, and we have a fever, we often for other illnesses have taken an antibiotic whether it's acetaminophen, whether it's ibuprofen, and what some, some French suggested Scientists have suggested is that ibuprofen and other anti inflammatories may blunt your immune response as of right now that information what's the exact word I had it pulled up is still up for debate. It is not necessarily something that is. That is a stocking answer that we say you must not use ibuprofen in the case of a fever related to Covid 19 unproven was the word I was looking for unproven so let's let's get the elephant out of the bag. What is killing people with Covid 19 is not fever. What is killing people with Covid 19 is respiratory distress is the inability to get breath in and children with diabetes are at no greater risk for developing that than children who don't have diabetes when it comes terms in terms of managing fever. Yes, ibuprofen is a anti inflammatory, ibuprofen at this point. We don't know if it's safe or not. My recommendation, though, is is to say, you know, we want to make sure you're drinking. We want to make sure you can keep fluids down. And if you are so uncomfortable that you can't drink or keep fluids down because of the high fever, then yes, we probably should treat the fever and at first maybe you treat with IV or with acetaminophen. But if all you have is ibuprofen, and you're you're miserable, at this point, it's still unproven that ibuprofen will make Covid 19 worse or prevent you to impair your ability to fight it off.   Stacey Simms  18:27 Well, and will continue to follow that obviously,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:29 just new information.   Stacey Simms  18:31 It's unproven, but I mean, I can't lie. I still you know, I take ibuprofen here and there I immediately was like, No, because it's it's scary.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:39 Sure. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  18:41 I went and checked everything in the house. How much acetaminophen do we have? What What else? Oh, because acetaminophen isn't so many cold medicines, sir. Let me ask you that people with type one and type two people with diabetes. Let's just say that who use CGM know that with Tylenol acetaminophen come warnings with death. calm. Now my understanding is Dexcom je six you can take 1000 milligrams of Tylenol safely by safely means it's not going to burn out your sensor you can is nothing to do with them anything beyond the sensor we're talking about here is that what you were understanding?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:15 My understanding and just for clarification even in previous versions of Dexcom if you're using g five if you're using g four acetaminophen does not prevent it from working. It just may mean the readings it gives you are not as accurate as they might be without acetaminophen in your system. But that's also my understanding for the for the Dexcom g six,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:35 just think or stick. Agreed?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:37 Yeah, if you feel your ducks comm isn't accurate whether you have acetaminophen on board or whether you don't have acetaminophen on board, poke your finger.   Stacey Simms  19:46 Right? Which means that a lot of people need to make sure that not only do we have a meter and test strips, but that we have the batteries or that our stuff is plugged in because um I know A lot of us are very reliant on CGM. Let's just put it that way. And I'm looking at my phone, not to be rude, but to look at the next few questions. So as you're watching,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:10 I know you go Okay, fair enough.   Stacey Simms  20:15 That was more for these guys. But seriously, um, I'm curious too, with, with not knowing when many of us will see our children's, endo next, or if we're adults are watching. Are there things that we should be doing? To check in between? I mean, I know that I'll give you an example. You always check penny for you know, scar tissue.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:40 Right? Like lipohypertrophy. Exactly. Okay,   Stacey Simms  20:42 so go for it. Tell us what we do. Yeah,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:43 so, so lipohypertrophy is when you will put your infusion side in the same place too often, or you give yourself insulin injections in the same place too often. And the downside of that is not only does it look funny, but it can prevent the insulin that you give yourself from getting into The bloodstream, and then it doesn't get from the bloodstream to the eventual target tissues of liver and muscle. So if you are thinking you're giving yourself a bolus, but you're giving it giving it into an area of life or hypertrophy, then perhaps the insulin isn't doing what it needs to do. And that can obviously be dangerous and increase your risk of decay. So, yes, I do think that parents should be checking your child for life or hypertrophy in the same way that their endocrinologist probably does regularly. And the thing that I would probably say is, the easiest way to do is just make sure it doesn't feel like a tricep, you know, flex your tricep right here. And you can feel a little bit of muscle tissue right there. And light by hypertrophy feels a lot like that. It feels kind of clumpy. It doesn't hurt the child, but it feels it like oh, it seems like there's a big clump of subcutaneous tissue here. You can even see like oh hypertrophy a lot of times and I might wind up doing that when I'm doing virtual visits is just have the kid in the room and say, Show me where you Put your palm but just look to make sure it's not looking clumpy now, I'm not going to do anything. Like make them show me their family or anything like that. But you know, their arms, their belly, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I might do that at the opposite.   Stacey Simms  22:13 That makes a lot of sense, though. You know. And another thing I was looking at my list of questions when we were talking about supplies, one of the interesting things is people seem to be posting quite a bit about not being able to get those little alcohol wipes. Yeah, we haven't used those in a very   religiously for years. Sure, sure. Is that something people need to be concerned about? Should I be getting out the rubbing alcohol and checking to make sure as a pediatric   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  22:36 endocrinologist I should say the standard line Yes, the proper protocol for either giving an insulin injection or putting a new infusion site in or putting a new Dexcom in or poking a finger is to wipe that area with alcohol first. That being said, You are probably not the only family. I take care of Stacy where your child does not use rubbing out Color an alcohol swab every time. So yes, we want clean skin. We know that giving an injection or anything that punctures the skin. without alcohol, there is a slightly increased risk of getting an infected site. There's bacteria everywhere. Obviously there are viruses everywhere. But when we're thinking about using alcohol swabs, we're thinking about killing the bacteria on the skin or removing the bacteria from the skin so that you can give a cleaner injection, or a cleaner infusion site or a cleaning Dexcom or cleaner Dexcom site etc. So if you can't get alcohol swabs, you still need to give your child insulin and you still need to figure out what her blood sugar is. So all in all, what's better to give a shot with alcohol to give a shot without alcohol swabs or to give no shot at all. They go in that order best is with second best is without third best is no insulin at all in that's not best. That's bad news. So   Stacey Simms  24:00 So, you know, another thing, that I have a whole bunch of questions here that I'm trying to get to the right order to go in,   when, when we're talking about these in between visits for a long time, and again, I know that you may be limited as what you can say, because we are talking in official capacity. So some of this is on, you know, I don't say on the record off the record, but you'll understand. So there are a lot of people who are very comfortable adjusting pump settings. Sure. There are a lot of people who aren't, you know, what's your advice for a family? And this was a question that came up in our group. I'll say, Michelle asked this, how do you advise or empower, newer diagnose parents on taking pump settings into their own hands? You know, are there ways to tell when something is a basal issue or a QRP? Sure.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  24:46 Yeah, so first of all, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there. I feel comfortable with my patients adjusting insulin settings without my permission, you do not need my permission to adjust your pump settings or your insulin dose. Is, however other pediatric endocrinologist may feel differently. I'm not speaking for all of us. In general, if your basal rate needs adjustment, that means that your child has been going a long time without eating. And her blood sugar either goes up, or her blood sugar goes down in the absence of all other factors. Best time is overnight. So if your kids waking up with a high blood sugar in the morning or higher than it was when he went to bed, that probably means he needs more basal. If he's waking up with a lower blood sugar than it was when he went to bed in the absence of the correction dose at nighttime, then chances are he needs less basal insulin. And kind of the same thing goes for carb coverage, if you notice every time after a meal, and I'm not talking about just that postprandial spike on a Dexcom because that is related not to the insulin quantity but to the timing of the insulin absorption. But let's say two hours, three hours, three and a half hours after every meal. If your kids blood sugar is going up that means That she needs a stronger carbohydrate factor. And remember, Stacy, I know you've written about this in your book, the factor is the denominator, right. So of insulin to carb ratio of one to 10 is stronger than insulin to carb ratio of one to 15. It's the denominator of the fraction. Similarly, for the instant correction factor, if you're giving a dose of insulin through the pump, or through the sliding scale that you've written down, and your child's blood sugar doesn't come far enough, universally, don't make adjustments based on just one thing, let her wait for a pattern to develop. But if you're noticing that you're that your child's blood sugar never comes down far enough after you give them a correction dose. That means let's make the correction factor stronger. And by that I mean maybe change it from 60 to 50, or from 50 to 40 or from 40 to 35, etc. Vice versa, if you are scared to to give a correction dose because your child's blood sugar because it doesn't come in or comes down too far after for extra dose that make it a little weaker. And by doing that I've seen baby move it from 50 to 60 From 60 to 75, or 75 to 90, etc.   Stacey Simms  27:04 So if you're watching this, and I covered my face and kind of made a joke, the reason is because in the book, I do talk about this, but I have definitely made the mistake of thinking that a smaller number meant less insulin.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  27:18 So it is confusing. It is it, just think about it in terms of the denominator of the fraction, a half a pizza is bigger than a quarter of a pizza, even though two is smaller than four.   Stacey Simms  27:30 You know, and that brings, I know this, this interview is getting a little bit away from Covid 19. But we've got plenty of time to talk about that. The just a follow up on the calling your physician and you know, there are a lot of wonderful presenters like yourself, who will take a call every day for a month from a nervous mom of a newly diagnosed kid. But there are a lot of parents who worry that they're bothering the doctor for things like that. Obviously, it never bothered me. But all kidding aside, can you assure people that if they're calling for instance adjustments that   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  28:00 it's okay. Yeah, it is absolutely. Okay. Like I said, I want you to feel empowered to do that on your own. But if you need help, we are there to help. And my office still has CDs answering the phone during daytime hours, you can take blood sugars and help make adjustments. The physician on call over the night or weekend can also do that, although it's probably easier to do that during office hours while we have CDs answering the phone because they can pull up the child's chart whereas if you call me on a Saturday afternoon, I'm not going to have your child's chart at my fingertips to make those adjustments. So yes, but please don't feel you are on your own. And please don't feel you are bothering us. Yes, when we take call. We also are seeing patients in the hospital and we are usually seeing patients in the office although now we may be doing more virtual visits. We are doing other things. It's not like all we do is just feel phone calls. We are doing other things and so we appreciate that one. If it's not an emergency, if it can wait until morning. That'd be great to wait until more But there are emergencies. And we also understand that when people have a child with diabetes, they worry at three o'clock in the morning, and if they're worried enough, please call us. Yes, that's what we're there for. But remember, we also are not general pediatricians. And so when it comes to Covid 19, if you are worried that potentially your child may have been 19, that is a better question for your primary care provider rather than us. We are not your general pediatricians. However, if you're feeling like your child was getting sick, and you're having trouble managing their blood sugar's because they're sick. That's a question for us.   Stacey Simms  29:32 Well, and that was what I was just going to ask if someone says, Oh my gosh, I think my child has Covid 19 and they have type one diabetes, what would you advise them to do?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  29:43 I think we're still learning more and more, you know, testing is not really readily available and everything that I've heard about testing to this point, it's been difficult to get a test now hopefully, that'll change soon. Um, and However, our primary care providers are at the frontline of giving of getting people coded testing. figuring out who needs to be tested? So I would defer that question to your primary care office because they will have the most up to date answers about whether you should simply, well, we should all be quarantined ourselves, right, we should all be practicing social isolation, but especially if you have any suspicion that you or your child has Covid 19 you need to stay in your house. And you do not need to expose any other people to this. So in that situation, though, whether do you bring your kid for a Covid 19 test? Or do you just try to isolate them and pray that they get better and again, they should I mean, kids with type one diabetes are not at greater risk for developing Covid 19 or having the respiratory complications, it just makes them more likely to get ketones. So anyway, um, if your kids healthy enough to just stay at home and continue that quarantine. Right now, that's probably what we're recommending, although things may change anytime,   Stacey Simms  30:57 and I guess you've answered this, but I'm going to ask them Again, just in a different way, to be perfectly clear the evidence as we're speaking right now, would say that if a child comes down with Covid 19 has type one diabetes, there is nothing different   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  31:11 to ground at home. Just Just differently from a diabetes management perspective perspective, make sure they're hydrated check for ketones if they're actually acting sick, even if their blood sugar seems fine. Um, follow your sick day protocol. But yes, nothing different compared to your other children who might not have type one diabetes.   Stacey Simms  31:32 Um, something else I wanted to ask. Gosh, I should have closed the blinds. Whoo. It's getting hot in here. One of the things I meant to ask when you talked about the time in between visits because I had a lot of questions on this in our Facebook group. People are saying like me, Benny's appointment was supposed to be in two weeks, we'll do a virtual visit, but I assume we're not going to get that a one. See that? We usually get quarterly.   Do you? Look we have a CGM so I can see what it probably is. But do you ever recommend a homemade one T tests.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  32:01 Okay, you and I, about a one says yes, yes. So again, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there, but people definitely overrate the importance of A1C, and so many people come into my office on pins and needles because they're so nervous about what that number is going to be in. As we've said before, you've heard me say it. And I think that's one of the reasons you and I get along so well is because we have a similar perspective, and everyone has different perspectives. But my perspective is, the ANC is just a number. And it's right now the best number we can get in a six minute turnaround test, tell us to summarize blood sugars, but it's just that it's just a number. And as we have more CGM data available, I think we're going to learn that time and range, maybe an even better predictor of avoidance of long term complications, because that's what we're talking about, right? We're talking about not necessarily trying to get your kids A1C to be less than x. We We are talking about trying to help your child be as healthy as she can be when she is 85 or 90 years old, right? And so it's not about the agency, there are plenty of kids I take care of where I'm worried. This kids having way too many low blood sugars, it's affecting their lifestyle. And I'd be much happier if they're a once you jumped up a half point or a full point if they had fewer low blood sugars. So my perspective on it once you may be different than many of my colleagues, I don't think it's worth it for you to check anyone see in the middle of between office visits, especially if you have the capability of looking at a continuous glucose monitoring system that can tell you time and rich.   Stacey Simms  33:38 Is it homey? Once the test even accurate? I've always wondered about   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  33:41 Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I have not seen I'm sure there are studies out there comparing the home a woman c test to a serum drawn that means coming from your arm type of A1C test versus a finger poke A1C test, which we do in our office. Um, I honestly have not looked at those studies, so I can't answer your question. But my guess is yes, it's probably pretty close. Okay, so   Stacey Simms  34:04 I have another one. You know, all these people in my group know you very well. And the question, I've lost the question, Where did I put it? Ah, here it is. Okay. So it's a two parter. The first part is all about technology. Have you mentioned time and range? You mentioned CGM advice for parents. This is a question who says, Are we overly reliant on technology? Or is that a thing? Does she need to worry about being isolated? If something doesn't work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  34:35 Yeah, I mean, you use what you have. I mean, we didn't have dex comes when Benny was first diagnosed. We didn't have insulin pumps, when I was, you know, or there were they were out there, but they were not commonly used when I was a resident. Um, when my senior partner Dr. Parker was doing his medical school, they didn't even have finger stick blood sugars, right. And so diabetes management is changing and we not relying on technology, but the technology has been good. And it's helped make diabetes easier, not a cure, but a little easier unless you become a slave to that technology. And you can definitely overreact to the readings on a Dexcom. I know plenty of people who will not put their phone away because they always want to know what every second what their child's blood sugar is. And that's not healthy either.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:22 I know what you're talking about.   Stacey Simms  35:26 I'm only half kidding. But yeah, nothing really can be a problem. I think the bottom line for that too, is if as you're listening, you think, gosh, I don't even know where our meter is. Or do I have test strips? You know, that's the kind of thing that you'll definitely want   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:40 to check but you do need to have a beat. You need to have a meter even when your child wears a Dexcom or a Libra or Medtronic CGM. You will need a backup way to check blood sugar. So yes, please have a meter and strips and lancets that's the finger poker available.   Stacey Simms  35:55 lancets we all have 5000 of those.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:57 Yes.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:59 Last question was Do bow ties help you in your practice?   Stacey Simms  36:03 choice only.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  36:04 So, my grandfather always wear bow ties, you actually might be able to see him right over here at Grand Prix right over there over my shoulder. Always wear bow ties. Um, and so I got that from him. Um, and someone said, I looked smarter when I bought a bow tie. And I was like, you know, great. I like looking smart, even though I so, but to be honest, yes, um, especially in this age of viral transmission, you're probably not going to see me wear a tie when we do a virtual visit. And you may not see me wear a tie as much in the office in the near future. The reason that many of the pediatricians through Boston Children's Hospital other of the older pediatricians wear bow ties rather than long straight ties is because there's less germs from this than there are from something dangling and so I will for virtual visits, I probably will not I almost certainly will not have a bow tie on and for the for visiting the office, I probably won't either just to have one less thing on mice around me that can collect your   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:06 which is your grandfather in the medical field or, you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:09 know, furniture industry.   Stacey Simms  37:13 All right. So before I let you go, because this is the first time I've ever had you on the podcast, hopefully not the last. But you know, it was in the interest of kind of feeling a little strange about, you know, that kind of relationship, my son's endocrinologist and that sort of thing. But now, I this has been great.   I'm curious, you know, you've been in practice for us at 15 years. I finished   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:34 my fellowship in 2005. So this is this will be my 15th. year as of July one or the end of my 15th year.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:42 Yeah, we caught you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:44 right at the beginning. Right, exactly. You were one of my may not my very first but one of my first patients now, I shouldn't say that. But yeah,   Stacey Simms  37:51 I mean, in the first couple of years,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:52 right, exactly in the first few years. Exactly. So   Stacey Simms  37:54 I'm curious, you know, it's hard to sum up in just a few minutes, but from then to now. already mentioned the technology have things. It's kind of a pet question. I was gonna say, Have you seen things change, but I really want to know, like, how is it to be a pediatric endocrinologist from then to now? I mean, it's got to be difficult with insurance things and all that sort of stuff. But are you still happy? This is a field you chose?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  38:20 Yes. I love my job. I love taking care of kids with diabetes. I kids with diabetes are only about 30 to 35% of my patient volume. And so I take care of 60% of other kids that I also love taking care of. It's the dream job. And yeah, I did not grow up thinking I wanted to be a pediatric endocrinology. I didn't know I really wanted to be a doctor. When I was in high school. I mean, there are some people that say they knew it from age two for me, that was not the case. But every step along the way, I've kind of thought yeah, maybe I do want to be a doctor. And then I go to medical school and yeah, maybe I do want to be a pediatrician and then I do my pediatric rescue. See and yeah maybe I do want to become a pediatric specialist etc so each step has kind of led me along the way and it's been a great choice I love taking care of your own as well as the all the other kids that I take care of. It's a dream job except for the paperwork.   Stacey Simms  39:15 Alright, so I'll check in with you again if I can during this time who knows how long we're going to be at home you guys doing? Okay, you can have your own everybody   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  39:22 do everyone's healthy. You know? I mean I I'm worried I mean, not about my kids not necessarily about my health I mean when one of those middle age brackets right but I'm worried about my parents, my grandparents who are still alive, you know, I'm, I am worried about I'm worried about the economy of not only our country, but the world I'm worried about, about the financial well being of my patients, even though I'm you can kind of get the sense I'm not really all that worried about the health of my patients with Covid 19 as long as they Following Sick Day protocols and but that doesn't mean go out and get exposed because obviously we need to contain this virus. I am worried about our world. But I'm not necessarily worried about the children that I take care of related to cope with it and I just don't want them spreading this terms to their grandparents.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:17 I think you're absolutely right on that. Well, we will leave it there. And hopefully we can check back in and I will see you for a virtual visit. I'm sure we'll be hearing from   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:28 that.   Stacey Simms  40:31 But I do appreciate it. Thank you so much.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:33 Yes, thanks for getting the word out states you remember, wash your hands stay inside socially distinct yourselves.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:41 But don't forget to call your parents all the people you love.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All Rights Reserved or wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

All right. Welcome back to mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. And today I have begged, pleaded, convinced, guilt, tripped and otherwise, and probably now responsible for dinners and drinks for the rest of my life. Uh, but our guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, Jordan harbinger, and more, more myth, I think. I know. Don't beat yourself up. That's not allowed. Uh, you've done an exceptional job. I love listening to your show. Believe it or not, not everybody knows who you are, which is unfortunate. I've run across people all the time and I'm like, Hey, I finally convinced Jordan to come on the show. And they're like, who? And I know that's hard to believe...it's easy for me to believe, man. My, I have an infant son who doesn't give a crap who I am. Right? And he never will. I think. Isn't that how it is with kids?No, I, I don't know. Cause here's the funny thing with even with a little man this morning, right? So just turned two in November and we were getting ready to go for a walk, do whatever. And I turned around and I cross my arms, he looked right at me and just crossed his arms. Exactly. It's a big grin on his face. So that'll start, it'll start to come eventually.I gotta tell you this, uh, I've got, I interview a lot of people for the Jordan harbinger show as you know, cause you, you do listen to the show and thank you for that. And I've got, you know, acquaintances, I should say buddies, whatever that are like well known household names across at least America. And they're like, yeah, you know, I thought when I have kids I'm gonna finally be the cool dad because you know, super famous, super rich person that everyone, you know, cow toes to walk into a restaurant, never wait for a table, never pay for stuff half the time. And he's like, no, my kids are still like, can you drop me off at the corner? I don't want people to see that I'm with you. And like, and some of it's for different reasons. Like, you know, most of us, we're just going to be too nerdy to hang out with the kids.And for him, maybe it's like half nerdy half. They don't want their friends asking questions for their dads or something like that. Like you're dead if during that one time or that one movie. But still, it's kind of like no matter how cool like you can be on, we literally had this conversation on their yachts and they're like, yeah, well, and I'm like, I'm on your yacht watching the NBA playoffs on a big screen TV that comes up from like the mahogany whatever. And your kids are like, dude sucks. You know, like it's you just, you can't,no, never, ever. You can't man. I mean it's, you know, I've got the spectrums. Like we were talking about 15 and a half. She splits a year with me. So I spent my 45th birthday standing in line at the DMV to get her learner's permit. I'm excited though. So I mean, and you know it, it's coming back around. That's what I'm watching. They kind of, especially with the girls, you know, my oldest now coming closer to 16, we have a whole different relationship and it's very cool to kind of see that come around. Like she's excited to do stuff with me. Um, so it does, it ebbs and flows, but yeah, dude, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be the coolest cat on the face of the planet. Your kids going to still be like, alright, leave me alone. I think that's the way it goes.Yup. Exactly. So I, he's five months old. I got a few more years.A bit of time, man. You got a little bit yeah, that that first, uh, that first year and a half. You're just like you are, I have no idea who I am.Right? Yeah. I would say common. Common advice I've been given is the first 10 years they'll think I'm cool and then the next 10 years they won't. And then like in their twenties, it's kind of 50, 50, and then after age 30, again, they realize I'm not a total dumb ass and I actually have something to say. I put my own experience with my own parents, like my parents are awesome. My parents don't know anything. Oh, turns out all that stuff that I thought I knew better than I was only half. Right. Okay, fine. I was 10% right, but I'm still going to count it because I can never let them have this one. And now that I'm 40, I'm like, Oh, time is limited, you know, just enjoy it. But I don't want to waste your listeners time with reminiscing orI think it's, you know, it's all relevant and it's all things that we, uh, deal with. You know, it's like when I had Phil McKernan on and, uh, even Sherry walling and some people, you know, uh, you know, we talked about the family issue several times, especially in our community. It's like, how do I go from being fireman, a cop, you know, quote unquote hero, which I hate that term. Um, you know, but, and then step in and be a dad and be like a normal dad or a normal mom, you know? Uh, it's tough.Why do you hate that term? I think a lot of people your position, they hate that. I mean I, my dad loves his hobby is like paying for policemen's meals at restaurants, which by the way I think is not allowed in most places, but indeed in Detroit they're like, thanks. Yeah, they're hot dog, but out here in California they're like, I cannot do that. Please do not do that. I have to fill out paperwork when you do that. So, but he loves it. And, and uh, it's funny cause I think a lot of people look at servicemen, firemen, cops, et cetera as heroes. But yeah, I guess I guess it's probably uncomfortable hearing it to your face. I would, I don't know how I'd feel. It's hard to say thatit's caused a lot of conflict. It's interesting because Phil Phillip has asked me to give my one last talk in February here in Boulder. Um, and it's brought up a lot of stuff. And some of that is what you know, we're dealing with now is like, really now you've done this, you've done a lot of work on yourself, you've done a lot of different, you know, aspects. But I think for me it's like I don't, that's not, it's not why I did what I did. It's, I, I didn't do it for any of that and I'm not, you know, I think part of the thing, it's like I laid in bed and like, I want your house to burn down because I want something to go do. I want to like, I want war and conflict because I want to fulfill my destiny, my job. How does that, you know, mentally conflict with and emotionally conflict with you? Saying thank for, thank you for my service or you know, Hey, I think you're a hero. No, dude, I'm actually not because it's not how it works inside. Uh,that's, that's funny if, yeah, I think if people knew that firemen got accepted, wow, look at this big ass house burning down, man, there's, this one was really expensive. This is going to be a fun one. Then probably public perception change.Well, I mean, in, it's in for me, you know, old school, you got to think, you know, I started back in the early nineties and then when I, it's like when I came back from Kosovo in 99 nobody knew what the hell was going on. Nobody knew the services invaded and committed mass atrocities in this country and the things that we dealt with, you know, it was just, it was a blank. Right? I mean, it was, it's interesting to me pre nine 11 post nine 11 you know, when nobody gives a shit that I was a fireman. The only people that cared that I was a firefighter was the, you know, seven year old kids coming in to check out the fire truck. Nobody, you know, you didn't walk down the street. Rarely did anybody offer to buy your meal for ya on occasion. But it was super limited and nobody was walking around saying, Hey, thank you for your service. You know, pre nine 11 it just wasn't existing. And now it's in your face always. You know, and, and I, I, I get it, you know, Mike Brown and I talked about this the other day. It's, he's got a buddy that always responds with thank you for your support when they say that and then they get a little awkward because it's like, wait a minute, did I, do I support the war? Do I, do I agree with that? So it kind of is a throwback to them, uh, in a kind way, if you will.Yeah. And, and, uh, look, I think people now more than ever appreciate it just because it is in the media a lot, but I understand how the, to bring this back to value for your listeners, I understand how your self image doing whatever you do might not match what the public sees and that can actually cause some discomfort and have that not because I do anything particularly heroic, let's be clear. But people will say things like, Oh, I'll get a video from a friend. And they're like, I met the mall and the person in line in front of me at this restaurant is listening to your show. So I started talking to them and they were like amazed that I knew you. And so I'm sending a video with this random like Chinese woman in line for dumplings. She is really excited and sort of getting all like, you know, Oh my gosh, she's Jordan harbinger.I'm all excited and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I don't enjoy it. I think it's awesome. And I think most kids up til age, whatever 30 I probably like if only that would ever happen to me, just one time in my life. But when it actually happens it can be highly uncomfortable because people get so excited and there's a part of me that's like I can never live up to that. Like I can never live up to that. And we see our own blooper reel in our head because we, they got like tripped over his own foot last night cause he stepped on a Lego and like yelled at his kid and then felt bad about it and then like got work late because he spilled coffee all over his crotch and didn't want to get laughed at. So he had to turn around and go home and change his pants.Like what? That's our self image. And then when other people are like, wow, you're so awesome. It's like thank you. But also the, you have cognitive dissonance that comes into play, doesn't feel comfortable. And so if you're in a service position and you feel uncomfortable when people give you those kinds of accolades, then congratulations. You're a normal human being and you're not a narcissist or just somebody who's maybe not done a ton of work accepting that kind of praise, which makes you a normal human being. So I want people to feel comfortable with that and not feel like, Oh yeah, I don't like that. And that makes, that makes me even more weird for not liking praise. Something's wrong with me. That's not the case. It's always almost always the case that when you feel awkward about somebody giving you high praise, it just means you probably have a healthy self image. Maybe you skew a little bit more towards negative, but that's okay because I think we're as humans kind of designed to do that. We have a negativity bias. And it's completely healthy,man. I, you know, that's exactly, so this is perfect conversation because you know, the way I look at one, why I wanted to bring you on the show, it's like you're the encyclopedia of knowledge now, right? You've been interviewed just a massive amount of people and you've gotten a chance to really one, learn a lot, but, but contribute a lot out there and you know, for today, the problem that I wanted to kind of have the conversation with you around that, that I feel like we all deal with is, especially in the services we have, this need to be everything to everyone all the time.I understand that, right? So let me, let me disassemble that a little. You mean that if you're, let's say you're a policeman, you mean you've got to be a cop both when you're at home, but also when you're out with your friends, but also when you're at work naturally, but also even on your lunch hour when you're just trying to house a steak hoagie and not get any on your uniform or cheese steak and not get any on your uniform, you can't really turn it off cause it's part of your identity. Right?Which component of that there? It's a 24 hour gig.Sure. So in every occupation has that, but you guys, and I say you guys meaning just fire, police, military, whatever. Hopefully that's clear. You guys have it more because yes, I'm a or interview or radio host or whatever you want to call it all the time. But nobody's like, Oh my God, is anybody a radio host? This man's having a heart attack, right? Like that will never happen. Interview his wife and see how she's feeling right now. Like that's never going to happen to me and no sane world will that happen. But if you're hanging out with your family on your one day off, cause you've been working a bunch of overtime, putting out fires in California and you finally got to go to your kid's party for like three hours and somebody passes out, you can't be like, look man, I have been working a lot. And that's all you, you can't do that, right? You're, you're on. And if you're a police officer and your daughter brings home a sketchy looking guy, you're not like, you know, I'm just going to pack these in guy.Yeah, this is okay. I know I recognize the gang tattoos, but look man, I am not on the clock. Have fun honey. Like that's not going to happen either. Not only because you're a dad, but because you're like, I know what that symbol means and that's, there's no way you're leaving the house with that guy. Right. And I'm sure that that happens all the time. And so in a way it's like with VR, it's, it's one of those with great power comes great responsibility. But sometimes it's like, well fine, but I want to turn the responsibility off. So I can play Xbox, dammit.Yeah, man. There's, yes. And there's this place where it's like, I mean, I, years ago all confess, long time ago I, you know, when I first started the fire service, I had firefighter plates, you know, tagline, license plates. I eventually took them off. I was like, you know what, cause I don't want to stop at the accident anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to be this. If I'm not in it on it, I want to be just average person. I want to be okay to just be, you know, Jeff, not fireman, not, you know, military guy, not agency guy and anything else. I just want to hang out. Uh, you know, I think that's a big problem.I can imagine because you can't, it's like never taking a day off, which I think we all know what that feels like as well. Just owning my own business. I know what it's like to be like. I mean, I'll sit down to a nice relaxing meal on Thanksgiving and Christmas and I'm like, I should be answering fan mail, zeroing out my inbox, reading this book for doing some prep for this show. What do I have to do? I mean, I will literally be, I try not to do this one. I'm holding my kid, but even sometimes it happens and I'll go, Oh man, in five minutes I got to put him down because I really have to get back to work. And I'm like, no, I don't. It's Sunday at 1:00 PM what I need to do is put him in bed and go watch Netflix.You know? That's, that's what I need to do. But I can't really turn it off. And I think for people who are in positions, like what your audience and what you, the position that you're in, it's even more dangerous because if I say, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if I don't finish this book today? The answer is, well, I guess I could do it tomorrow. I just have to get up a little bit earlier and maybe listen while I'm at the gym. But if somebody says, what's the worst thing that happens if I don't stop at this accident? You start catastrophizing because you either start saying, Oh my gosh, well this could happen, this can happen. You start catastrophizing or you just start thinking nothing. Who cares? I got to get on with my life. But then you probably have a crisis of conscience that's like, yeah, I shouldn't think that way.What kind of horrible person drives past an accident when they have the training to stop it. So you're compelled to, nothing's really compelling me to bust out my Kindle. Right. Like a little bit of guilt that I can turn off cause I realize it's a little irrational. Your guilt is maybe that person's child is in hell a and you don't stop because you're halfway to whole foods and your kid's crying. You know like w what, what? It's a different game and I don't think, I don't think a, what do you call us? Civilians? Like I don't think us, right. Joe's like understand that fully. Because if you're a teacher in somebody who doesn't understand their math homework and they can't get ahold of you, Oh well you'll, you'll help them out on Monday. But if somebody passed out on the sidewalk, you have almost like a moral obligation and it's hard to turn that off and realize that you need your own sanity.So I think a lot of people in your position, you put yourselves last more so than most parents do, more so than most teachers, more so than most, I don't know, public servants in another position, like the mayor of most towns is not sitting at home on the weekend and worrying about what's in the office. Um, it may be a big city, but most, most of them are hanging out with their family and having Turkey, you're the one that has to be awake at 3:00 AM for the call. And that, that level of stress is not good for you longterm. And then of course they say take a vacation and you're like, I wish I freaking good. You know, I'm on vacation thinking, hope nothing bad happens to my friends. Even if you can put society out of your mind, you got your buddies out there.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, it's interesting because like we do, we, we leave ourselves last in line and there's a level of expectation I think even in relationship and friendships and et cetera. Like there's this normal like why can't you just turn it off? Why can't you just be home right now? Why can't you, you know, you're not at work, why can't you just leave that at work? And so that's kind of this be everything to everybody all the time that shows up. It's like, okay, so I've got this side of me that I can't turn off. It's a 24 seven deal that I have this moral, ethical and you know, emotional response of ness to right. That I just am always tuned into what's happening. And then, you know, my wife wants me to be freed up and easygoing and have fun and not care, right. And, and not have this thing. And so it's like there's this ebb and flow, constant conflict. And I know, cause I've listened to some of your shows that have been radically helpful for me and a lot of ways, uh, you know, the people that you've had on and just kind of beginning to dissect how I begin to create transition points or points of recovery or understand kind of how I flow from one ideal person to another ideal person in a way, right. Without then the guilt and shame and crap that goes with it.Yeah, I think there's a lot of cognitive, well we've mentioned cognitive dissonance, but there's brain science that goes into to this like catastrophizing, what's the worst thing happened? And you start going down the if trail and the stakes are higher for what you guys are doing, guys and gals, let's be clear now, there's a lot of women out there now and I, I like, um, and you know, you're in this weird position where society will look at everything. Well, police especially now, um, firemen, I dunno if are, if you're immune to this, but, uh, I can't, nothing comes to mind. But with police man, now it's like you're under fire and all of you under fire. Whenever there's any kind of negativity. And I, I would imagine any cop out there now, in fact, I wonder this, I'm so curious if, if police now feel like they're looked at differently by a lot of folks just because of what's been in the news and that really, it really sucks to hear that because I mean, when I was little, the police would come in your house and you'd say, Hey, do you want some coffee?And they'd be like, sure, thank you. Now I feel like that would just never happen. Um, because there's just this more arms length distance, at least in bigger cities, especially, um, with where the police stand. When I grew up, I didn't grow up in a small town, but they would come in and they didn't take their shoes off because, you know, that's, that's a little bit too much. But they would have, you can make them tea or coffee and they would be like, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. Now I don't think that's allowed. And I remember recently, I live in San Jose, California. We had a package stolen and the cop came in and sat down at our kitchen Island and open up his laptop and did the report. And I was like, wow, this is such a different experience than I've experienced anywhere else.And even just the, the times that I've dealt with the police in other big cities, even in New York, when they come in, it's just like, you almost feel like you're at the police station. And I'm like, I didn't commit any crime. I called you guys, you know? And I remember just like feeling really intimidated and I realized, Oh yeah, they have half or one, some percentage of the time these guys walk into a house and someone tries to stab them or something, you know, like, so I gotta just sort of keep that in mind, but you can't live your whole life that way. And that's just really easy for me to say as a fricking podcast or it radio guy and you guys can't turn it off. And that takes its toll. There is science behind this. When you are in fight or flight mode or when you are at least an elevated stress for a long period of time, you don't, uh, you wreck havoc on parts of your brain. Um, you age faster, your heart, uh, is obviously not as healthy as it should be. And if you're always eating on the go, those two risk factors combined are just not good lifestyle. Um, I don't want to say choices because it's, it's hard to say that it's a choice, but they're not good lifestyle factors I should say. And that's, that's really bad for everyone around you too. And so you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. I hadone too. Yah. Which is not only all those core factors to it, but then, and it's finally cool because that's why I think we're doing well with the podcast and we're growing significantly in this community because we can now have these conversations and five years ago, 10 years ago, like this just, it wouldn't even be accepted. The kind of, the idea of looking, of looking at what's going on of, you know, emotional safety and the things that we deal with. Like when I grew up that, that, those were not conversations that were had at all ever around, you know, we live in a world of suck it up, shove it down, slam it down, deal with it, and do your job. And that's how a lot of us, especially kind of in our upper thirties and forties, you know, that's how we grew up. That was the environment.And it's cool for me to at least to see that today we're able to have these conversations and they're listening, right? And people are more curious about how do I deal with this? How do I transition emotionally? How do I understand all these core factors? Right? They're just kind of the task and purpose factors and then the internal factors that are in play. I mean, I, I remember flying the episode you did with, uh, Gabriel as Rocky when you guys were talking about self-development, uh, and kind of go and add it, right? I can't remember what the tile they upset was right off hand. Uh, but I was texting you all the way through it. Like this is, you were spot on with it. Uh, I,I always remember Gabe and I do a lot of stuff together because he's a frigging genius with his research. Go ahead.Yeah, like in that [inaudible] that, that particular episode, I'm going to find it, tag it and put it into the show notes because that particular episode, you know, you went through and you talked about all the kinds of the bullshit that's out there, the reality of things, you know, he did a phenomenal job and kind of breaking down a look at self-development in a way that I believe made sense to our, would make sense to our community rather than kind of this hoopla, hippy dippy hang out kind of stuff. You know, you were talking about some of the programs you've gone to where you just felt like totally violated in it. Like, get me outta here. Uh, and you know, and you were sharing some of those stories along the way that I think really resonated with me. And resonates with our world because it's like I don't, I it, there's a fear that if I become soft or soften myself, I won't be capable of doing my job as well.Yeah. And there may be some truth to that, but it becomes, it becomes problematic because of course you wouldn't parent the same way that you police. Right? Like, well, I, in theory you should probably not do that. Yeah. I mean, what, who am I to tell anybody how to police? But that's the idea behind it and it's really, really tricky to make recommendations like that because I'm sure people out there see therapists and things like that and it's like, okay, great. Have you ever been to Iraq, Afghanistan? No. Have you ever put out a fire I've ever seen burned a child, you know, and you're there and the parents' reaction, have you ever had someone pull a knife on you? Uh, you know, while you're in a closed space and your partner is taking a leak? I don't know. You know, like all of these things are, it's hard to relate to and it's, it's hard to have somebody be like, you just need to relax more.It's like F you, right? Like, what do you tell? Sure. Tell me that while you have another sip of your latte over there buddy. Like, sure. I just need to ask some more. And then it's like try yoga and like what planet? It just feels like the people giving advice to first responders and military. It's just, they're on another planet. They're from a different planet. It's completely nonsensical in a lot of ways. And so it's not, it's not relatable, which makes it worse because it's like hearing some quack tell you to do something and it's like you just don't even understand my reality at all. And it makes you feel more isolated of cool because then you think, Oh, the help that's available is some Yodel with a four year degree who's never even left, you know, our city or state and has certainly never held, uh, held a position like mine in a F in a dirt lot like Iraq or Afghanistan.And now I'm sitting here like listening to him tell me what I need to do. It's just gotta be really isolating and frustrating and that I think is just part of the problem. And of course you've talked to other people with the same problems. It's a good support group, but you're mostly just venting as opposed to getting actionable strategies and that. That makes me kind of sad to hear because I think it's no surprise we rely on you to do your jobs to have a functioning society where I can sit here and sip my latte and Dole out unqualified advice. Right? Yeah.I mean I used to have this statement where it's like if I went to see somebody went down to sit with a psycho or whatever, I'm like, listen, if I am actually honest with you, if I actually share with you what you want me to share with you, you're going to have PTSD by the time we're done. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to be fucked up, like, like, and, and then I'm going to end, the problem is like we live in a world or the way our brains work, it says, so there's this whole world for me now kind of uncovering, which is this understanding of how to bring calm to chaos. All right, so we're back and you know, here's where we kind of left off and we were talking, you were, you were, were kind of exploring this understanding from the law enforcement aspect where you know, you're Sharon, you know, cops used to be able to come in and sit down, have a cup of coffee, you know, actually converse with you where today it's like 24, seven always on edge.And it's this, you know, it was interesting as we're going, because I've been looking at this quite a bit, it's like this collapse of, of stress between the public and the providers, if you will. Right? So it's like this, there's this vicious circle that's happening. I think now that's been happening over the last several years where you know the police are a little bit more under fire being watched being you know, putting them on edge, the public's on edge about the police. It's like this high state of conflict where somebody has got a run in the middle and be like, okay can everybody just settled down for a second and take a breath and kinda hit the reset button. I do see that happening significantly.Yeah, I can imagine that there's not a whole lot of resources out there. I mean it's like there are and there aren't and everyone complains about things like the VA. I don't really know much about that, but I do know that no matter how many resources are out there, it can be really tough. When you go home and your friends and neighbors are kind of oblivious, you almost maybe feel like you're living a secret life. Maybe you are living a secret life.Yeah, which my neighbor, my neighbor in Florida for years, it's like, dude, what do you do? Cause you're like disappear for several weeks and then you just play golf when you're home and your work in your garage. Like I don't understand what you do. Yeah, man. I mean I think the, I, you know, it's been an interesting conversation so far because we've kind of explored where for us there's not all the, the resources are limited and in the way that people understand or give us, and I'll say us from the community, the opportunity to express ourselves fully and actually deal with some of the struggles that we face and have an open, honest conversation or dialogue without freaking people out. I was, you know what you're talking about. If I said, if I sat out with a psych, it'd be like, you know, you'd have PTSD by the time we're done. The problem is if I lay out what I actually feel inside, I'm going to hit all the trigger words. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, you know, well I gotta call somebody, I gotta, we gotta fix this. This guy's, you know, suicidal or this guy's, you know, homicidal or whatever. It's like, no, this is just my life. This is just the way I operate.Yeah. I think that there's probably a bit of, what would you even call this, like a protective shell that everyone's in your position is able to put on, but I don't, is that healthy? That's the question, right? Is that something that is healthy and I'm not totally sure that it is. I think maybe it serves a purpose, but I think that it's also probably, there's probably a problem that I don't think most people can switch it on and switch it off. I think that's the biggest issue. That's the biggest problem is it's hard to turn it off. Then when you're at your daughter's graduation, it's just still there. And so yes, it sort of protects you, but is that something that you actually, is that healthy for you mentally?Yeah, it does. It actually work for you longterm? I mean it is, it's like we've, you know, I, I re relate it back to when I was a kid when I was three or four or five now my mom would always laugh at me because there's two things I played growing up. Fireman and army. Like that was it. And I had to put on blue corduroys to play fireman and then go change into Brown corduroys if I wanted to play army, like I had to be in context, if you will. Right? Even as a kid, and I think I've looked at that skill right now. If I take that as a skillset, how do I pull it on when I put on my uniform or when I put something on, it's like, okay, here's where I am. This is who I am for this period in time. And when I take it off, I'm no longer that right now I am transitioning into husband, wife, mom, dad, son, brother, friend, hanging out or whatever it might be.Yeah. That's got to be tricky and also mentally taxing, and I think that's very problematic because I don't think a lot, I don't think a lot of people really know that, including the people that are doing this, you know, that are in your position, know that there is such a cognitive cost, a psychological cause to making that switch. It's not just leave it at home. If you're shoving it down, it's like eating Brussels sprouts. If you don't like those, right, you're, you're cramming it in there and it wants to pop back out and it's all you're devoting cognitive bandwidth, brain power to keeping it from popping out, and that's unhealthy because it's stressful for you. It's taxing for you.It's wearing, it's wearing. I mean, I think that's where I look now at 45 exhausted most times. Right. If you actually, if I'm honest with myself and with people around me, it's like I'm just worn out.Yeah, I can imagine. And you're not going to rest well if you're consistently working on made to, I don't want to, I'm trying not to talk last here. If you just keep on pushing something down, you're not going to have, let's say you spend 10% of your cognitive bandwidth trying to push it down. 90% of you is there. So being present is tough. Um, focusing on self care is like last priority cause you're just trying not to screw up the family party by being a weirdo or whatever. Right? There's all kinds of stuff that that happens as a result of that, that that is invisible and that's, that's the problem. That's what's unhealthy. It's invisible. It's, that's what makes it insidious. That's the word I'm looking for. It's insidious. You don't see it coming because you think everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then you're just like, why the hell am I tired constantly?How come I can't relax? And then it just, they throw a label on it like, Oh it's part of your PTSD or it's like residual trauma. And it's like, yeah, but the real truth is that you, you can't relax, you're not focused, you're constantly monitoring your surroundings even though you're in your own living room. Like that's super unhealthy. And I don't, I don't think maybe it doesn't affect everybody, but certainly people that have seen combat or conflict or people that are on this street every day, you know, like that type of stuff that doesn't just go away. And you even see it when, when a police officers and military or retired, there's, it just doesn't go away. And I think because as an evolutionary strategy, the people that survived to, to reproduce were the people that didn't shut that stuff down so easily or forget it. So. Right. They were constantly vigilant. I don't think some Roman soldier really necessarily retired and lived out the rest of his years. They probably were, I don't know, back then, dead at 30 max at or no.Well, yeah, you lose all value. I mean, in a sense a truck goes away, you lose all value. And that's where I've really looked at it to say, and you know, you brought up an interesting point where there are a lot of labels that go with us, right? It's, Oh, that's just PTSD, or Oh, you must have done something or you must have seen something. It's like, no, it's just this, this constant inability to transition effectively to kind of settle myself and to turn it off. Right. To bring the volume switch down a little bit. Um, you know, that's been the interesting exploration for me. Now, understanding kind of the biological factors that go into play, uh, deep inside in the way we are trained and developed. And then of course, you know, childhood trauma and everything else that comes into play for us. We just aren't given the tool to ebb and flow in this life that we've chosen.And yeah, it's more, it's more exhaustion. It's more, you know, self-driven stuff than it is any incident or seeing something or participating in something cause a greater population. You know, you've got chose to put on a uniform. I chose to go to combat or I chose to run in that burning building or I choose to save lives. I choose to do these things and going back to kind of where we started, it's like when you, when you call me a hero or when you elevate me, it almost dismisses what I do in a way. Does that make sense to you? I mean, what do you think about that?Um, can you clarify that a little? I need to make sure I know what you're, yeah,so, so for instance, you know, we talked about this internal struggle between like not wanting to be called a hero or not wanting to be acknowledged so much. You know, cause for me, I'm laying in bed hoping your house burns down or you know, I want to go to the next thing I want to call out on my SWAT team. I want to do these things. I want violence to occur out there in the world. And when you then call me a hero or you elevate me because of what I've chosen to do, that creates that separation right. Internally from kind of the external view of who I am. But in doing that, also, what I'm trying to struggle and balance with is like the acceptance of myself and myself in the, my place in society. It's, I feel like there's this unspoken expectation that says, you know, if we're a firefighter or a cop, you know, we're committed to service.We're committed to the people around us, you know? Yeah, we're there to save you. Yeah, we're heroes. But internally, I don't think any of us feel that way at all and we don't know how to express stuff very well. I mean, we're, I had one of the guys on the show not too long ago that literally like at 16 you know, he started riding firetrucks 16 and they ran a house fire people inside trapped and burned up and the chief sat him down in the car, pulled out a six pack of beer and says, okay, this is how you're going to solve it. You know, and no wonder he's an alcoholic later in life. Right? Yeah. Dude, that's the world, man. That's the world we live in.Yeah, that's a, that's problematic. If people are, and I'm sure that's the exception and not the rule, I hope it is. But if those are the tools that sort of the tools of the trade that you learn when you start the job or yeah, just hit the gym extra hard tomorrow, you know, like, okay, but that's a bandaid on a bullet hole. And that's very problematic because what happened, not just that it doesn't work, but then people think, man, you know, I am having a drink with the guys and burning off some steam. I am hitting the gym, I am going for a run, but I still feel kind of shitty. Something is wrong with me. And that's the dangerous part. Not like, Hey, this tool is not working. I gotta find something else. Because you know, this isn't working for everyone. Maybe we should research this. It's, this isn't working for me, but I serve shit. Don't want to be the guy that walks in and is like, I feel bad. Right. Maybe that's not the culture.It's absolutely not the culture. I mean that's, and that's where I think we're finally, you know, we're just, I mean we are, you know, this is partly why it's interesting to have you on the show because in this, in the entrepreneur space, right? I mean it's like you and I hanging out at MMT in park city, just kind of taking a break, sitting out on the balcony, bullshitting, right? In this, in this flip side of the world, there's a lot of advancement, a lot of development, a lot of openness around self discovery and what's happening and emotion and freedom around that. And, and that's, that's becoming very much more mainstream than it used to be. But our audience, I mean, we're still antiquated. I mean, we're still in the dark ages when it comes to that stuff. Like we are just on the cusp of these conversations flowing out across the, across these communities. Cause it is, it's, it is, shut it down, shove it down, deal with it. Um, suck it up, buttercup. I mean, those are the, that's the, that's the training. That's the conversation. And I've said for years, you know, the only acceptable emotion in these worlds is anger, right? You can't be too happy. You can't cause then you're fucking off. You can't be sad because then you're weak. But you can be as angry as you want to be. And I think that perpetuates. It's like it's a self perpetuating cycle we're dealing with constantly.Yeah. Th the anger is an issue. And I think a lot of guys just men in general have this as a default because we're not necessarily taught good emotional communication. And a lot of us are less wired for that in a way. And then lean on that and go, wow, where a guy, you know, and so I, I don't know about you, but my dad, his diff, he's a great guy by the way, just to clarify. But he's his default communication when he's frustrated a little bit sad, feeling a little bit stressed, feeling a little bit rushed, feeling like he is a little silly because he forgot something. He just goes and gets angry because he doesn't have the other channels. Right? Like he doesn't have the other modes. It's like he's got red and, and you're like, Hey, color this in blue. And he's like, uh, red. Right. He just can't do it. So there's fun dad. And then there's like angry dad and then there's normal dad, but there's not like sort of down today dad, there's just really short temper and shorter temper and that's no, that's sort of normal for him. His dad was the same way. All the guys in our family are the same way and I'm fighting that all the time.Man. You just described me to a T really the majority of the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's been difficult. I mean, I did the work with Elliot road kind of release the anger stuff, which really helps significant crazy, you know, the, on the hypnotherapy side. But it's, it's difficult. And for me, what I've noticed is it's really driven by this sense of anxiety and anxiety around not being good enough for everybody around me. Yeah, that's, that's problematic. But it's also thanks normal as well, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, and that's, and that is, and that's kind of right. That's the purpose behind some of this show is to kind of normalize this, this conversation that says, okay, that's, yes, it's a problem. Yes. You know, it's an issue that needs attention and you're not abnormal. Right? You're not the only one feeling that way. And, and I like that you said that it's, it is, uh, there's a big man issue there around it cause it is, I mean we weren't really, we're taught to be, to create physical safety really well. We're not taught to create kind of emotional safety for the people around us at all. And a lot of waysit's a good point. And additionally, I mean even in addition to that, not only are you not taught to create psychological safety, it's not even prioritized. You know, you're not even doing it for yourself, let alone for other people. It would be different if we were also self if we were centered and grounded and you know, felt good about ourselves and that it was just, Oh, we're just sort of selfish as guys. It's like, no, we're not even creating that for ourselves, let alone for other people. And you can't really create it for other people until you create it in yourself. You know, we, we think we're fooling everyone and our kids raising these kids and we're like, yeah, I just want my daughter to be confident. Yeah. I just want my son to be [inaudible] when they see your example and you think, Oh, I'm putting on a brave face.Okay fine. But after like age seven, they can tell. Right. And then he spent 20 years being like, I'm faking it. It's like, no, your kids are like, yeah, my dad, you know, he doesn't really take care of himself. You know, he's always stressed out. We think we're putting on a brave face and it's just so obvious cause you know, the cracks show, especially when they're sitting around at the dinner table and you blow up because they mentioned they didn't finish their project and before they finish their sentence telling you that they got an extra week for it, you start talking about how they didn't get their work done, dammit. You know, and like they're just hold up dad, we got an extension. Oh, you know, it's like that kind of thing. The cracks start to show, or when we massively overreact to something that they've done and they realize that that isn't normal.Or they see other people acting normal or they're just like, why is this the case with my dad? Oh, you know, mom says it's something from work. Like kids are smart. It's, there's, someone told me, uh, you have to be really careful when you have guns in the house, right? Because kids will get their hands on it and the retort is always, no, I have a gun safe. And it's, did you know the combination to any of your parents' stuff when you were a kid and the answers yeah. By age 11, 13, 15 years old. So the key isn't, don't let the kids have the combination that against safe. It's, by the time they're obviously going to have figured out what that is. They know how to use a gun safely. Right. That's the, that's how you keep them safe. Not, not by telling them, not by diluting yourself that they have no idea how to get in there. Cause you the same fricking safe code as you do on your iPhone. So when they candy crush, you're telling them the code, right? Like they, they're onto you buddy. You know,I knew all my dad's stuff was, I'm, yeah. At a very young age. Let me ask you a question. What have been a couple of your favorite episodes this year that you've done? I mean there's, we're closing out 2019 kind of related to any of this stuff. What do you, what have you taken away from your experiences this year in all the shows that you've done?Yeah, I've done some really interesting ones in the past year especially. There's one with Jack Barsky who was a undercover KGB spy who came to America at posing as an American and he later decided that he loved America so much he was just going to stay here. And he, he ended up never getting caught up until recently actually, well after the Soviet union had fallen. And so that's a really interesting story. It just kind of shows that if you ever feel like, Oh man, this country has gone to hell in a hand basket. You know, it's nice to see somebody from the outside who's essentially one of our sworn enemies, you know, coming in and going, actually this place is great for all these different reasons that I think a lot of people don't think about every day. Um, we had Admiral James DaVita's come on and talk about character that's a, he's an interesting guy because of course he's that, he was the NATO Supreme allied commander.So that's kind of a big deal to have somebody come on and talk about that sort of stuff from straight from the horse's mouth, you know, had a lot of opportunity to do bad things and, and didn't, and uh, man, we had a guy from catch me if you can, uh, the inspiration from cashmere, if you can, that movie with Leonardo DiCaprio. We had a Frank Abignail come on and discuss the psychology behind some of the, the cons and the imposter stuff that he was doing. And so the shows run a wide gamut. Even recently we had general Robert Spalding about how China is essentially looking to overtake America with technology, but also the spy, where that's going in some of the, and how the Chinese communist party really does have it out for us. And it's very well documented. It's not a secret. We're kind of the only ones that are sleeping on.So we've done a lot of really great shows that show that both things are both going in the right direction but also need to be maintained, right? Like we need to pay attention to the direction that we take our society and our country and ourselves. Because all of those things are integral to maintaining democracy. Like we can't just work on self-development, but we also can't just be paranoid about everything around it. It's like we really have to work on the whole picture. That's really, really crucial to do. So, eh, don't we risk our, our whole, our whole way of being.Yeah, I'm mad and I think that's what I really enjoy about your show. You know? And again, part of the, my mission, I feel like bring people into my world. You know, they may not, they may not listen to Jordan harbinger. They may not know you exist. Uh, cause it's kinda not in their bandwidth being able to bring resources and tools to the table for the men and women out there that are doing their jobs every day. You know, you've got some phenomenal stuff out there that I know would make a difference in their life.Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'd love that people are listening to podcasts more now and if they're interested in this and maybe they'll be interested in the Jordan harbinger show and I'm on social media at Jordan harbinger on Twitter, Instagram, et cetera. So I'd love to hear from everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate the opportunity. It's a lot of fun and talking with you is always fun.Hey man. Yeah, we just need to hang out more often and clearly now. I owe you a nice dinner and I'm going to try to be in San Diego again while you're there, but, and I'll make sure that all the links are up on the show notes. Uh, that, uh, all the links to your a one year podcast, but then, uh, Jordan harbinger.com, uh, your links to Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all the good stuff. Uh, and I know that you're, uh, I think sometimes we feel like people are untouchable or unreachable in the world. You know what I mean? And I want my listeners to know that I know you're a pretty responsive guy and you know, you offer a lot and you're really committed to, uh, bring in a conversation to the table in a variety of ways that helps solve problems everyday for people, you know, kind of the every day. That's what I really appreciate about what you do.Well, thank you very much man. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to everybody and like I said, it's always fun to chat, so don't be a stranger.Hey brother, I really appreciate you joining us today. All right,that wraps up our show and matter of fact, the last show of 2019, happy new year again, Jordan harbinger. Brother. Thank you for giving us your time coming on this show. Uh, educating me and us giving us your thoughts and your insights and really a summary of everything that you've been able to accomplish over this last year. I appreciate it so, so much. I hope everybody had a great 2019 or at least you're still here. You asked me 20 that year. 15 was a pretty much a shit show in a lot of ways, but a lot of great things came out of it and I'm looking forward to an entire new year to really blow this thing up. So a couple of little things. One, we're going to continue with the Tuesday, Thursday podcast episodes starting in 2020 for the month of January. We're going to be dealing with the operational pillar.Number two, mental acuity has some great guests lined up throughout the month. Really some phenomenal episodes, some great tools and lessons and things to learn and practical application. Please do me a favor, keep sending me your notes, your feedback, your thoughts on what we're doing and how we're doing it and if it's working for you or not. The last big thing is I need your support and keeping this show up and running, keeping things moving and giving back to you. A lot of you have asked for more, for more depth, for training, for etc. And we've got to figure out how to do that. So I put together your a hundred day operational challenge. It's available at mindsetradio.com or you can go to mindsetradio.com/opyourlife. That's Opie your life. It's a go nation basis because this podcast is a part of the operation mindset foundation. So there's some options to do that. And if for right now, for some reason you want to take on the program and you just can't swing that donation, send me an email and we'll talk about it.I'm really looking forward to bringing people into that program. We're going to begin January 15th as a group and after that you'll be able to sign up any point in time and it'll run for you and not a problem. So that'll be up in live starting January 15th make sure you get in, register early so that we can know who's coming in. Get some things set up. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a freaking ball Buster, but I promise you at the end of the a hundred days there is gold at the end of that rainbow. So I look forward to you joining me. Thanks for listening. As always, do me a favor, share this podcast out. Share it with those your work, those you love, those you like and hell. Even though she can't stand, maybe they'll shift some contacts for them.So thanks for giving me a great year, your time, your attention, your listening and your feedback. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks to all the sponsors and stepped out this year and really supported us. Roofers, Elliot Rose at the prime mind app, chief Miller apparel and all the others that just showed support across the board. I greatly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having the conversation in the new year with you. Bring us some new guests, new tools, new techniques, and some real practical application routes from stop again, don't forget to swing by out mindset.com check out the foundation in 2020 we're going to be out on the road quite a bit, teaching a lot of the programming that's out there. So if you want to bring something to your department, pop in, fill out the grant app, and let's get this. I already started, so it's all there and available for you. Let's really elevate the conversation of how we perform at the top of our game, mentally, physically, and emotionally in all aspects of our life for 2020 that's the mission. I hope you'll join me for it. That's it. Have a great safe new year and we will talk to you soon. 

In the fall of 2019 a series of fortunate events led Technically Religious contributor Leon Adato to take a journey of a lifetime. He transformed an unexpected convention trip to Barcelona into a mission to bring a Torah back to the US from Israel. Like the movie that this episode is named for, along the way he experienced unexpected challenges and met larger-than-life characters who helped him on his way. Listen now, or read the transcript below. Kate:                                     00:00                     Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experience we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion or lack thereof. We're here to explore ways we make our career. Is IT professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious. Josh:                                      00:24                     In the fall of 2019 a series of fortunate events led Technically Religious contributor, Leon Adato, to take a journey of a lifetime. He transformed an unexpected convention trip to Barcelona into a mission to bring a Torah back to the U S from Israel. Like the movie that this episode is named for, along the way, he experienced unexpected challenges and met larger than life characters who helped him on his way. I'm Josh Biggley and the other voices you're going to hear on this episode are my partner in crime, Leon, Adato. Leon:                                     00:57                     Hello. Josh:                                      00:59                     Alright, Leon. You know how this goes, time for some shameless self promotion. So tell us who you are and where we can find you. Leon:                                     01:06                     Fantastic. I am Leon Adato, as we've said, probably three times already. I am a Head Geek at SolarWinds. Uh, you can find me on the twitters @leonadato and you can also read my pontificating about monitoring and other things at adatosystems.com and I identify religiously as an Orthodox Jew. Josh:                                      01:26                     Wonderful! And I'm Josh Biggley. Uh, this is the first time I think we've officially announced that I am a TechOps Strategy Consultant with New Relic. Uh, super excited about that. Started two weeks ago and I feel like I'm living the dream. Leon:                                     01:40                     Mazal Tov, mazel tov! Josh:                                      01:41                     Mazal Tov indeed. Uh, you can find me on the Twitters, uh, @Jbiggley. Uh, I've actually shut down all of my, all of my um, non-work related discussions maybe I'm just tired of social media. I don't know. Um, but I do identify as post-Mormon. Um, so Leon, you, you had a trip. Leon:                                     02:02                     I did. I did. And, but before we dive into the particulars of the trip, which is sort of the central part of this episode, I want to talk about something that I think is near and dear to a lot of it practitioners, which is travel hacking. Josh:                                      02:16                     Oh yes, yes, please. Leon:                                     02:18                     Because a lot of the, a lot of the parts of the trip that I took were predicated on or were built on my ability to, um, travel both comfortably and also efficiently. Um, you know, not being independently wealthy as I think all of our listeners are. And if you are a listener and you're independently wealthy, please consider taking a sponsorship. Um, we would love to, we'd love to have your support. Um, in any case, uh, I wanted to take a minute and talk about some things that I've learned over the last five and a half, almost six years as a head geek doing a lot of traveling. And Josh, I know that you have stuff to contribute. Josh:                                      02:57                     I'm actually going to do a lot of listening here because, uh, as part and parcel of my new job, I'm going to be doing a fair bit of traveling. So, uh, I mean I'm going to take some notes. Uh, wait, no, hold on. We're going to put the details in the show notes. I'm not taking notes. Leon:                                     03:11                     Very good. Okay, good. I, you know, and we forgot to mention that earlier, so that was a nice way to slide it in there. The first point, especially when we're talking about non US/Canada travel is all you need to do is get to Europe. Everything else is cheap. Once you do that, just get to Europe. I think a lot of Americans, and I'm assuming also Canadians, um, think, well, I'm going to go from, you know, France to Italy to this and they feel like they have to book it all out from the American perspective and you can, it's going to cost a lot of money. The reality is that just land anywhere in Europe, it doesn't have to be your final destination. It doesn't even have to be on your itinerary. Wherever it's cheapest to land get there because once you're on the continent at that point, getting around is ridiculously cheap. You live, for example, uh, you can get a one week pass on the train system for about a hundred dollars US and that allows you to get on and off the train as much as you want. So you can go from city to city and if you get someplace and it's like, wow, I didn't even expect to be here and it's beautiful here and I want to spend more time, fine, stay here and get on the train tomorrow or the day after or whatever. Also, there's a lot of cheap airlines, um, easy jets, one of them, but there's others. So again, just get into the region and from there you can build your trip off of that. Another thing is airline travel points are your friend and therefore, um, you want to work those points. And just to give you an example, a round trip ticket from the U S to Israel on United. I happened to be a United flyer. That's my airline of choice a is 80,000 points. Round trip from Barcelona is 30,000 points. You know, I was already, as we'll get into, I was already going to be in Barcelona, so I was able to build off of that to go do something else. Credit cards are a great tool for travel if they make sense for you. I'm not insisting that people get involved in credit cards. You get into credit card debt. I know that it's a slippery slope for a lot of folks, but the reality is that there are a lot of cards you can get that come with a signing bonus and you get 50, 60, 100,000 points. That's a European trip right there. Just that, you know, especially if it's a credit card that you know you're not going to use after that and you've got the, the willpower to do it. Josh:                                      05:25                     I liked that actually. I did. I didn't use that piece of advice. Um, when I started my new job, I, I, I am an Air Canada flyer because I'm in Canada and there's really two airlines, so yay. Star Alliance partner. Um, right. Got out, went out and got myself a credit card. They gave me, uh, a bonus for signing up and then a bonus if I spent more than X number of dollars, which wasn't a problem because it's also their credit card, I used to reimburse all my expenses. Leon:                                     05:50                     So as an IT pro, as long as your company doesn't have a thing against it, use that credit card. First of all, you get all of your perks if you use that card rather than the corporate card. And yeah, you get, even if even if the dollars are going to be reimbursed, you get the points for the miles. And to your point, especially if you know you're going to do a lot of travel, take a look at, you know, a lot of credit cards and a lot of airlines have a card that gives you club access. It costs. For example, the..., I have the chase United card. It is I think $400 a year for a fee. Now, $200 of that are refunded to me if they're travel related. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about taking a taxi or an Uber or Lyft or a hotel room or an extra bag that I'm checking in or whatever, whatever it is, those $200 get reimbursed right off the top second. If I need to get something like nexus or global entry or TSA pre that's covered, you're automatically covered with that, but on top of it, it gets you automatic access to the airline club and the reason why you want that there's, there's the living, the high life aspect, right? You walk in there, they treat you nice, you free drinks, there's food, there's even showers and stuff like that. That's nice. However, that's not the perk. The perk is that there's a different category of travel agent who works inside the club and I really believe that those agents are exclusively graduates of Hogwarts, school of witchcraft and wizardry because they will make things happen that can't happen anywhere else. I have gotten can't, you know, flights canceled, bumped off my flight, missed my flight, whatever. And I walk into the club and I tell them, Hey, this happened and type, type, type, type, type, Mr Adato, I've got you on the very next flight. There wasn't a very next flight. There is now. Oh wow. I mean like they literally conjure a new airplane. I don't know. They're magic people. That is worth the price of the card right there is having that, that fallback. So that's another thing. You had something about your status. Josh:                                      07:57                     I mean, I don't do a lot of traveling, but I am, I got silver status, um, uh, on Air Canada this year and I am five segments away from getting to gold status when traveling first, getting on the plane before, um, you know, zones three, four and five is pretty awesome because everyone wants to take their non-checked bags with them. So everyone's trying to cram their carry-ons. So you get in early, you always are gonna find some carry on space second, um, you, you're going to get your pick of seats. I mean, not first class. Sometimes you get a first class upgrade, but you're going to get that premium economy. Um, so you actually have leg room. Um, and I mean third, you just want the ability to access some of the perks that come along with it. Like, Hey, if you rent at the Marriott hotels, you automatically get, um, 250 or 500 points. Little things like that. And I think that's another hack. Let's make sure we're stacking our, um, our rewards. You know, if Air Canada and Marriott have a, an agreement which they do, um, Hey, um, fly air Canada and stay at a Marriott hotel. Fortunately without even planning it, I always fly Air Canada, uh, or star Alliance partner. And I also, um, usually stay at a Marriott hotel, uh, when it makes sense, uh, only because it was really close to, um, you know, our, our previous employer, um, and made just perfect sense and there was, it was a great rate. So yeah, I mean, find those, find those synergies and uh, and work them. Leon:                                     09:33                     I will also say don't get sort of psychologically locked in. Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you can't fly your preferred airline, you can't do that. But you know, have an eye for that. And then the last thing, and this is something I think as Americans were less, I don't know, less comfortable with, is the whole cell phone thing. You know, because America is so just geographically big and the carriers cover such a large range. I think once we get into the European theater, uh, the idea of what do we do with my cell phone comes up now, I will tell you I solved this this year by moving to Google Fi which rides on top of networks in almost every country. And so I didn't have to think about it. I landed and literally got a message. "Hey, good to know that you're in Switzerland right now and we've got you covered." Like literally a pop up on my phone came up and said, but as a non-American, you know, what advice do you have? Josh:                                      10:27                     The advice that I've always been given and that I know that a few friends of mine who travel extensively always say is, um, don't roam Europe. Yes. All the cell phone companies. And including, you know, bell who I'm now with so that I can call the U S without unlimited calling. Um, they will tell you that you can roam for like $12 or $15 a day. The reality is don't roam. If you're going to be in Europe for any period of time, buy a SIM card. Um, I mean there's, they're like $25 for unlimited calling, uh, uh, a very generous helping of data. Uh, if you're going to use all of that, you should probably get out and see the sites a little more. Leon:                                     11:09                     So my son, this is going to factor into the longer story, but my son is, uh, in Israel in a hundred gig data SIM card is effectively $12. Leon:                                     11:19                     Oh, come on! Leon:                                     11:19                     If you're going to be there for a week or two or whatever it is, and you're going to use a hundred gig of cell data yet, like you said, you're doing your traveling wrong. Josh:                                      11:28                     You are definitely travel or you're, or you're traveling all sorts of, right. I don't know. Maybe you're live streaming. Leon:                                     11:34                     Yeah, maybe a live streaming. Sure. Okay. Josh:                                      11:36                     Streaming your entire trip. I mean, not, maybe that's a thing. Leon:                                     11:38                     Okay. So that's, that's, you know, part one, travel hacking, just general travel hacking ideas. And some of that will factor into the story. But I, I think we want to pivot now into the story of me bringing back the Torah. Um, again, the Frisco kid for those people who aren't familiar is a wonderful movie with Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford story of a sort of a naive rabbi from Poland who travels across America to deliver a Torah to, uh, San Francisco. Uh, I felt very much like that along the way. Where it started was that I was set up to go to VMworld Europe this year, which is in Barcelona. And when I realized that that was a thing, I immediately decided I was going to take a cheap flight to Israel to visit my son who's there at Yeshiva. Josh:                                      12:22                     No, wait, hold on, Leon. Yeah. Um, I think last time we talked your son was struggling with Yeshiva. Leon:                                     12:29                     Yeah, he was. And in fact, um, when we talked about it, he was coming home. Like that night there was a flurry of activity. There were some correct course corrections made and some assurances made. And in fact he was able to feel comfortable staying with 15 minutes to spare. Josh:                                      12:46                     Wow. Fantastic. Leon:                                     12:47                     Yeah. So he was there and you know, he's doing, he is doing much better and growing and learning and doing the things that you want to do. But I was going to be there and I thought this is a wonderful chance for me to check up on him and see what he gets to see. And so I did that. And like I said before, the flight from Barcelona to Israel is significantly cheaper than the flight from the U S so it made a lot of sense. You know, I found the cheapest code partners that I could find and I got those flights booked. And so I mentioned to my, to my rabbi, just in passing, I said, Hey, I'm going to visit my son and he's, you know, in Israel. And he said, Oh, if you're going to be in Israel while you're there, can you bring a Torah back with you? And I said, well, yeah, sure, I guess. Sure. And he immediately, his entire tone changed. Like he was surprised like, well you mean it like will you ask me to, sure. Is that, are you sure? He must have asked me if I was sure five times until finally I said, what are you not telling me about this? You know, because I thought I'm bringing a Torah back. Is there something else I should know? Is there some major risks that I'm unaware of? What's what's going on Josh:                                      13:47                     Now, to be clear, we are talking about the first five books of the old Testament. Right? Leon:                                     13:53                     Right. So, so in this context, when I say bringing back a Torah, it is the scroll and we'll have pictures of it in the show notes, but it's just, it is, it is a, you know, scroll of parchment may, it can range in size from let's say, you know, two feet long and you know, kind of like, you know, eight inches wide and maybe 10 pounds and it can get, they can be larger than that, but, Josh:                                      14:14                     okay. Well I just wanted to make sure that Torah wasn't code for, I don't know. An alligator. But apparently you can't bring on the airlines. I, I, Leon:                                     14:24                     They really don't allow emotional support alligators anymore. Josh:                                      14:28                     Oh, weird. Leon:                                     14:29                     I know. I know. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a fairly specific object and, and non-dangerous it doesn't bite or anything like that from an it perspective because we want to talk about the technically part as well as the religiously parked. I was immediately struck by what happens when you volunteer for a project that nobody expects you to say yes to. My rabbi had made a comment sort of as a, and I took it seriously and all of a sudden he was sort of stuck like, what do well, but nobody would say yes to that. And, um, you know, we, I think many of us have been in that situation with projects where it's like, Hey, who wants to do X? You know, who wants to write that ebook? Or who wants to, yes, please. May I? And I was like, no, you don't. You don't really want to do that. I'm like, Oh yeah, I totally wanted to. Josh:                                      15:16                     Uh, I think we all definitely need a Leon Adato on our teams to, uh, write all the documentation, uh, in fun ebook style. Leon:                                     15:24                     Yes, absolutely. Um, I think that, you know, for any tech writers who are here, you can men, you can talk in the comments to this post on TechnicallyReligious.com and say I'm available and I will volunteer to write eBooks also, you know, uh, volunteer meaning pay me. But, um, so I think from an it perspective though, there's some lessons that we can pull from this just even at this point in the story, you know, volunteering for things that other people consider to be a hard job is a really good career idea. Josh:                                      15:53                     Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Over the last five and a half years. Um, well, I mean, let's bring up the story, right? Hey Josh, it'd be really awesome if, you know, you joined, you know, Cardinal Health and you know, came to work for Leon Adato and then four days later someone quit on me. Leon:                                     16:15                     Okay. It was to become head gig and SolarWinds. Like, I couldn't not take that opportunity, but yes, I, Josh:                                      16:22                     Yeah, but yeah, it's saying yes to opportunities even when they're hard, like, Hey, will you fill Leon shoes? I'll try it. It works out really well. And that really set me up for, for my entire career at a, at Cardinal Health, right. I as a non-cloud engineer, I was the co lead of the cloud community of practice as a just an engineer, uh, air quote, just an engineer, not a senior engineer. Um, I was the enterprise monitoring representative on the smash committee. It's not a whole idea of always be learning and you don't know that you can or cannot do something until you volunteer to do it and Hey, why not do it in a, what should be a safe space, um, of work. Yes. It means putting yourself out there. Yes. It means being risky. Yes. It means you have to trust your colleagues, but Oh my goodness. If you're going to try something, try it with the tactical support of a really strong team. Leon:                                     17:19                     I also want to say that, you know, I got a lot of pushback from, from my Rabbi. Are you sure? Are you really sure? Do you mean it? Sometimes that's a warning sign. Sometimes when people say, you know, when nobody else is volunteering and the person in charge is, is really looking for that confirmation, it's a clue that this is not, you might've missed something. So ask questions. Not just the people in charge, but ask other folks, you know? But at a certain point, you also recognize that what appears to impossible or odious or frustrating kind of work that may not be how you see it. And that means that that's your superpower. So again, I love writing. I really do. And so while we're, a lot of other people in it will say, you know, write something. Are you joking? I'd rather take a fork through the eyeball. I'm like, I really wish I had more time to do this. That just happens to be the thing that I like. Recognize when that's the case and run with it. Josh:                                      18:19                     My super power is apparently financial models. Right? Which is totally weird. Since I failed math in ninth grade. So Zack Mutchler and I who were colleagues up until two weeks ago, despises financial models. He never wants to do that. And I'm like, Oh my goodness, please. Yes, let me, it's, it's my grounding place. If I can figure out how it works financially, then I'll go and figure out how the technology works. So, um, yeah, I, I will volunteer to do financial models any day of the week. Yeah. Leon:                                     18:50                     And that's something I would never do. Right. Okay. All right. So, so fast forward, um, you know, VMworld Barcelona is wonderful and I wrote some blog posts about it and then I, you know, went from there to Israel and had a great week with my son and had a great time. And I even got a chance to speak at cloud native day in Israel. Um, so I had called a friend of mine, Sharone Zitzman and said, "Hey, I'm..." She has kids. and she's Israeli, "...so I'm going to be there with myself. What's really fun things to do?" And she said, "Oh, you're going to be there. I'm running a convention. Can you speak?" Like Sharon, that's not why I, that's not what I called you for is to do another convention talk. But here I am. So I did that. Now, what's interesting about this, and this is relevant to this story, is that, um, the morning of the convention, it happens to be a Tuesday, uh, Israel executed an airstrike that killed, uh, uh, Palestinian Islamic jihad commander. And, uh, I know that it gets political. It gets into, you know, the whole middle East politics and things. So a trigger warning up front about that for people who feel strongly about it. But there was a, uh, an airstrike that killed this Islamic jihad commander and that triggered a retaliatory strike of 160 rockets that were fired from Gaza into Israel. And six of those reached Tel Aviv, which meant that the talk I was giving in Tel Aviv, you know, might not happen. And we were on our way from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and I was getting emails that, you know, despite the fact that businesses and schools had been ordered to shut down, the convention was permitted to continue. Um, and then I got a call from the organizer who said, "You know, if you don't want to come in, if you're not comfortable, if it makes you nervous, I completely understand." Nope, we're on our way. It's fine. You know, 160 rockets, just another day in Israel. Here we go. So I went in and, and gave the talk and that was fine. So the next day, Wednesday I'm set to fly home. It's me, my luggage and the Torah. Um, so I need to describe in a little bit more detailed what this is. So the Torah is a scroll, it's on two wooden dowels. And um, like I said, it can be anywhere from say a foot and a half to three feet tall or long and you know, six, eight inches a foot wide when you roll it up and everything. So that's wrapped up, you know, packed up nice and tight and bubble wrap and wrapped in plastic and put into a a duffle bag that I can take with me. Then there's a box that goes in because, uh, some Torahs are just the scroll, but some come in their own sort of self contained container and this is called an Aron. So when I use that word from now on in the Aron is the box that comes in and this is a circular box. It's about two and a half, three feet high, about a foot in diameter. It's usually made out of plywood and covered in silver and has all sorts of literally bells hanging off of it. Uh, so that's, that's also there. Now the, the Torah itself cannot be checked as luggage. You treat it with respect and you know, I wouldn't check my grandmother is luggage. I'm not going to check the Torah, his luggage either. Um, so that has to come with me on the plane. Uh, you don't have to buy it its own seat, but you do have to bring it with you on the plane. It can't be checked as luggage. The Aron, the box can be checked as luggage. So that was all packed up. Also, it was wrapped nice and tight and foam and bubble wrap. And you know, a layer of plastic just to keep it all self contained. And that was in another duffle bag. And the Torah itself, uh, it turns out was about 25-30 pounds and the, our own was probably closer to 40 pounds. Josh:                                      22:24                     Oh wow. Okay. Leon:                                     22:25                     Along with my overloaded suitcase cause it had all the convention crap I had collected and a couple of things my son wanted to send home with me and a pita maker that I bought while I was in Israel for my wife, like one does. Right, right. All right. I just need to remind you at this point in the story that I had booked my flight, uh, my flights back and forth before I knew I was bringing the Torah. And it was also predicated on this convention trip. So my flights were Barcelona, Israel, and then Israel, Barcelona and work was paying for the Cleveland, Barcelona, Barcelona, Cleveland leg. So I had these two separate trips that, that dovetailed, that I booked before I knew I was bringing a Torah. And the second thing I wanna remind you is that there were 160 rockets fired from, you know, Gaza into Israel the day before I flew. And the reason I mentioned this is because of the flight home was on Turkish airlines. Josh:                                      23:13                     I mean... what??? Leon:                                     23:13                     It was on Turkish airlines. Yeah. Josh:                                      23:16                     So a Jewish dude. Leon:                                     23:18                     Yeah. Orthodox Jewish dude flying on Turkish airlines. Okay, I'm going to give this spoiler Turkish airlines rocks. They are amazing people. Uh, they, everybody was delightful and lovely. So I'm just going to, I'm going to put that out up front. Okay. However, I didn't know what to expect. I also want to point out that, um, it, Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv, the, the airport in Israel, all of the check areas, uh, are on the same level when you walk in the door, except for Turkish airlines, which is two floors down and off to the right in its own little section. And that section is predominantly a Palestinian Arabic travelers going back and forth. So I'm traveling as, as incognito as I possibly can. For those people who've seen me. I have little fringy things hanging out of my, uh, you know, out of my shirt, the tzitzit, those were tucked in a, I wear a kippah, but I was wearing a ball cap over it. I just wanted to be like as nonchalantly American as I possibly could be. Just again, didn't want to be in people's face, especially given what was happening, you know, that day and the day before. I get up to the checkout counter and delightful, a Palestinian young lady is checking me in and I give her the our own first because if there's gonna be a problem with my tickets, because I have three, I have three bags. I was only supposed to be traveling with one, they're overweight. There's a lot of extra charges on me. I want to make sure the, our own gets on before, you know, before anything else happens. So she asked me "Mah zeh?", what is that? My Hebrew is very, very bad. So in English I, I said "it's, um, it's a box that a Torah goes in?" I'm not sure if any of these words are going to have any meaning to anybody. And she looks at the duffle hanging off my shoulder and she says, "Zeh sefer Torah?" that bag over there, that's a safer tour. That's a, that's a Holy Torah? "Ken". I said, yes. "Ah, very good." She puts a fragile sticker on the bag that has the our own on it and she says, please take this off. We will use special handling for this. And then she takes my other bag, which is overweight and she puts a heavy sticker on it and off it goes. And then she takes my other bag and off it goes and I have my credit card out. I said, "I know this is going to cost." And she says, "There is no charge." Josh:                                      25:34                     Waaaaaat??? Leon:                                     25:34                     I know. I literally said, "no, no, I just gave you three bags like I have to pay for these " She says "No, no, no, it is all good." Okay. And then she hands me a card, she says, this is a pass for the VIP lounge. Please enjoy. Josh:                                      25:49                     Wow. Leon:                                     25:50                     Okay. So now I have to take the Aron to special handling. So I take it around the corner to the special handling air. It's where it just right there and these two Palestinian guys are, you know, you know Israeli Palestinian, Israeli guys are there and uh, they open the bag and it's of course wrapped in bubble wrap, wrapped in plastic wrap and whatever, and they put it through the x-ray. Now I just want to remind you, it is a, a wooden box wrapped in silver wrapped in bubble wrap, et cetera. What's that gonna look like on the X Ray? It's gonna look like a big metal tube. So these guys, these guys like we're going to have to open this up. It had been so carefully, professionally packed and look, you're going to do what you're going to do, right? You've got to do it. So they open it up and they're like, yup, that's exactly what we thought we were gonna say there. And then immediately pull out their own roll of bubble wrap and they wrap it up just as good as it had been before. Just boom, boom, boom, wrap it up, put it back in the bag and off it goes. Like no problem. No. You can also say that, you know, tourists coming back from Israel is something that is seen a lot at Ben Gurion airport. That's a pretty normal thing. So, okay, so I get through the rest of security. I get to the lounge, I have a delightful time in the lounge. Um, get on my plane. My flight is going on Turkish airlines from Tel Aviv to Istanbul. Of course, that's the, the, you know, hub for that. Change. planes, go from Istanbul to Barcelona and that's where I have to change flights again. So I'm stay overnight in Barcelona, get up the next morning, come back to Barcelona airport, and I'm basically doing the same thing all over again. I get into check in this time it's United and, uh, this time everything's going to happen except it's going to happen in Spanish. Now my Spanish is better than my Hebrew. Uh, it's not great, but it's better than than that. And so I get to the line and uh, you know, get through the line and I get up to the guy at the counter and he once again, you know, I hand him the Aron and I put it up on the conveyor and he says, "well, what's that?" All right, I'm talking to you in a predominantly Christian country. How am I gonna explain this? "Uh, it's a box that, that a Torah scroll, a Holy scroll goes into," I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to say this. And he spoke English, but I'm still, and he says, "Oh," like recognition dawned and his face, he hands me a sticker that's his fragile, he says, would you like to put that on here? Okay, fine. So I put the sticker on, he says, "okay, please take it off and we'll special handle it in the moment." And he takes my bag, the overweight one, and he takes the other bag and I pull up my credit card cause I'm going to pay. And he's like, "no charge." Like what is this? No, no, no charge. And again, he hands me a pass. He says, "here's a pass to the VIP lounge, please enjoy." Josh:                                      28:32                     Oh my goodness. Leon:                                     28:33                     Okay. He gets up. Now there's a line of people behind me. He says, please follow me. So I follow him. There's, there's other people, you know, it's not like he left the line waiting, but you know, I follow him around to where the special handling area is. And he says, please "put this up on the conveyor." Like he's standing, he's standing right there, but please put on me. So I put on the conveyor and I put it, apparently the wrong direction, "would you please turn it?" And I realized at that moment, he's not touching this thing. So I turn it and it goes and it goes on and he comes down and as we're walking back, he says, "We see this sometimes Shalom." Josh:                                      29:06                     Oh my goodness, I've got chills. Leon chills. Leon:                                     29:09                     So I go through Barcelona airport security and, and here I get stuck again because the Torah again is wrapped in bubble wrap, whatever. It's just this big blob on the x-ray. "Que es esto?"Kay the guy says, uh, "Halbas Ingles?". No. Okay. Here we go. There's, there's a phrase that you have that I try to say it's really bad. So for those native Spanish speakers, please feel free to mock me. "Una objeto religioso" it's a religious object. "Yo no comprendo." "Una scrol de Bible?" Like now I'm running out of words here to describe what a Torah is to the security dude in Barcelona airport. And so he calls the supervisor over and they have a quick conversation and she looks at me and she says a word, which if you're ever in Spain is the most important word you can possibly know in Spain. It's Vale. Vale means okay. In the same way that we would use it, it's a question. It's an answer. It's a statement. It's everything. Vale. So I say "Vale??" and she says, "Tu puedas va. Vale", You can go. Okay. So I go, I go to the, I go to the lounge, have another delightful time. I get on, uh, the airplane. I should mention one of the other things, one of the other issues. Remember I said the Torah can't be checked as baggage. So each time I'm getting on the plane, I'm worried that they're going to gate check this extra piece of luggage, this Torah, because it can't go. Never happened. Each time I would go to the flight attendants say, "I'm really sorry. I know this is sort of oversized. It's, it's a few inches larger than normal carry on, you know, but it's, it's a religious object." Again, I'm, I'm describing it in, in non-Jewish terms and it really, and they're like, "no problem. Put it right up there. It's fine." Like it was not a problem at all. Um, but back to your point about being able to check on early, it really helped to know that I was one of the first people boarding, so there was going to be overhead space. It made a difference in this case. So we're flying in and uh, you know, Barcelona, New Jersey, I land in New Jersey at Newark airport and that's when I realize I have this incredibly valuable object. How do you claim a Torah at immigration? Like how do you, Josh:                                      31:21                     how do you claim?... Leon:                                     31:23                     ...What is it worth? So I'm real quick texting a bunch of people like people do this, how do you do whatever they say? It's not worth anything to anybody else. Yes, you're right. We would pay a lot of money for it, but it's not actually on the street worth anything, so just don't claim it. It turns out however that something else happened. I have global entry. Back to the travel hacking. I have TSA pre. I also have global entry, which means that I can go through the really fast lane when I come in through the country, but I also on my phone have the TSA app, which allows you to do the claim form on the plane four hours ahead of landing and put everything in there and then the record's already in there. However, don't do both. It turns out that if you do both, it creates a conflicting record in immigration systems that if you're, if you have Global Entry, you simply use global entry, use the paper form and go through. I didn't know that, so I did both. So I get through personal immigration and they say, Oh yeah, if you're going to do, you know, so I scan my phone app and I show them my Global Entry and they're like, the Global Entry doesn't count because you did the phone app, it's going to create a conflict. Don't do that. So okay, fine. So then when I'm pick up my bags and I'm going to go through the check, I go through global entry and the guy sees the phone app and he spends a good solid like two minutes. "Why did you do that? You already have Global Entry. Why did you do the TSA App?" "I didn't know it was going to create a problem." This is... "Just please next time don't do that." And he waves me through an off I go. He didn't ever look at the fact that I had four pieces of luggage, you know, I'm a single guy going through, didn't even pay attention to that. He was more concerned about the fact that I had made an IT error. Josh:                                      33:06                     Lovely, yes, you had done the steps out of order. Incorrect. The problem exists between the keyboard and the chair, obviously. Leon:                                     33:17                     Right? So, right. PEBKAC rules. I am clearly the ID10T error of the day. That was the problem, not the toy, the ancient Torah scroll and the silver case and that, that wasn't okay. So I get through and uh, I get home and uh, one of the lessons to, to spin this back around again to the more technical is that I had, I knew the entire flight plan. I knew each of the steps along the way. I knew that I was gonna have personal security at these places and I was gonna have luggage security at these places. I knew I was going to have all these things. I had my steps in a row, but I, I took each step as it came. I didn't take a hiccup or an issue at one moment as a sign of things to come. Good or bad. I really, and I think that as IT professionals, we also need to think about that. That, you know, we have a project, we know what the project plan is. Things are going to work, other things aren't going to work. That doesn't mean it's a sign of how the whole project is going to go. That each moment is its own moment and doesn't necessarily have bearing on the next moment to come. Josh:                                      34:28                     Yeah. I, when we think about how, how do you build a resilient system, there are two things that you factor in. One is a system that is resistant to failure and a system that can quickly recover from failure because there is no such thing as no downtime. It does not exist. There will always be failures, right? And as IT professionals, we need to figure that out, not just in the technology but also in the way that we execute projects in the way that we execute our careers. I mean, it's all about that personal, professional resilience. Failure is going to happen. Roll with the punches Leon:                                     35:12                     And you know, don't, yeah, don't imagine the punches aren't going to come, but just because one step along the way knocked you down doesn't mean every step is going to knock you down. It's not. Um, so we got it back to America. Um, in the show notes, I will link to the live tweeting I did of the entire process and a picture of the Torah itself so you can see it in its, in its new home. But after I, I got back, I went over to the rabbi's house and the rabbi's wife and I were, and she said something very interesting and I have to give you a little bit of history. So as I mentioned before, um, the kind of Jewish we are or the culture that we come from is the Spanish Jewish culture. So that means that, uh, after the expulsion of the Jews from Israel in 72 CE, after the second destruction, they settled in Spain and they lived in Spain until about 1492 during, you know, the Inquisition. And then our family, my Rabbi's family and my family settled from Spain into Istanbul and they lived in Istanbul, in a little town outside of his temple until about 1920. And that's when they came to America. So when I got everything back and I was sitting at the house and I was talking to her, she said, you know that Torah stopped every place our family lived. And I got chills. It went from Israel to Istanbul to Spain to America. And if I had said to you, Hey Josh, you know, I just want bring a Torah back but I want to do this really, really cool thing. I'm going to stop every place or a, you would tell me, Leon, you are way overthinking this and just bring the thing back and be done with it. But it just happened. It just, you know, it just worked out that way. Leon:                                     36:49                     And again, from an it perspective, I think it speaks to that serendipity of life, whether that's religious or it or otherwise. Sometimes you know and have this in caps, you know, things happen for a reason. Trademark, copyright, all rights reserved. Things do happen for a reason. And it's okay to know that that happens. And sometimes you say, I'm just going to see how this works out. I'm going to let things happen. I'm not going to try to control the outcome. I'm not gonna try to make it be something, I'm going to let things go and, and just let it be. I didn't intend for that to be, my travel path, but it did. And, and the experience was that much richer because of it. Josh:                                      37:33                     You know, I, I had an interesting, uh, moment over the past month or so going through the interview process with new Relic and talking to a number of my current team members who were on that interview panel and explaining the journey that I had toward being someone who is, uh, an enterprise monitoring practitioner. And I realized in recounting the journey over the past 20 years that my very first job than IT laid the, the framework for me becoming a, a monitoring practitioner. I worked for a small company, uh, in Michigan that focused on call center software and they designed software that would connect to your PBX, uh, for your call center and would allow you to monitor the phone status of all of your agents and then would correlate all of that data up onto a big screen. That would allow you to run reports. It did call center monitoring my very first job and then my next job had an HP OpenView workstation and then my next job had an HP OpenView work station that I replaced with SolarWinds. It's a wonderful journey. Uh, I, that's, it's, it's weird. I think like you and your Torah story, uh, your Torah journey, you didn't realize the importance of that journey until you paused for a moment to reflect on the journey that you took. And I, I think we have to do IT as well. Sometimes we're so focused on where we want to get to that we forget where we've come from and the power that comes to us. I think that's important, right? Right. What we value in our IT lives. We have to take time to look back what we value in our personal lives and our religious lives. Yeah. You know, I think I'd like to end Leon with a quote from, uh, Ralph Waldo Emerson. So he, you know, prolific writer, um, wrote a series of essays and a second series and an essay entitled experience. He said "To finish the moment, to find the journey's end and every step of the road to live. The greatest number of good hours is wisdom." Destiny:                               39:46                     Thanks for making time for us this week. To hear more of technically religious visit our website, technically religious.com where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect to us on social media. Josh:                                      40:00                     So you brought a Torah back from Israel? Leon:                                     40:03                     And all I got was this t-shirt...I mean, this podcast story.  

Press B to Cancel... evolution! After 8 episodes we get all poetic about our earliest Pokemon memories, and discuss the inspiration for our podcast name. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Wulff 0:00 This week on presby to cancel, we discussed the evolution of Pokemon Gotta catch them all. AgainWulff 0:29 Hello everybody and welcome to presby to cancel I figured eight episodes deep might be time to jump into a topic reflecting the podcasts namesake presby to cancel so, with that in mind, we're going to be talking about Pokemon today to cancel that evolution. Wait what?Palsh 0:48 Sorry, I just had to do that I was trying to think somethingWulff 0:50 witty, Ching goo Jayco magic keys make you feel all better?Palsh 0:55 We ran. Okay, so here's our intro You may continueJake 1:03 or be very proud of. SoWulff 1:06 today's episode, I know I normally do things a little bit more structured, but today I'm going in a little bit more freewheeling. So we're going to discuss things a little differently. But I'd like to start with Pokemon beginning in the West. So I remember seeing I had kind of gotten into import games and stuff like that shortly before Pokemon released in the West. And so I remember seeing Pocket Monsters merge at import stores and stuff there was a place I used to go called game cave in Southern California. I don't think it's around anymore, but I I'd go there once every month or two and I just see all this pocket monsters crap wall scrolls, stickers, cards, you name it was there and I was like, What the heck is this and they tried to explain it to me and I just didn't get it. Bought a year or two later, it finally released in the West. And I remember seeing a new story on TV about Topeka, Kansas, changing its name for a day to Topeka to Kansas. Nintendo, I'm guessing threw a big sack of money at Topeka, Kansas and said, Hey, we want to change the name just for a day have a big event there. Kick off the Pokemon North American events in Topeka and they were like, Yes, please. So they have people I'm pretty sure they had pretty sure they had people dressed in Pikachu outfits and they had the, the fleet of 10 Volkswagen beetles done up like Pikachu that said, gotta catch them all on the side. And from there, they just started sending those beetles out to everywhere in North America to do the events. Do any of you recall that at all?Jake 2:55 No, but I just find out where they didn't do. Topeka, Kansas because took a piece of Cute little Pokemon.Wulff 3:02 But I think topi was generation toJake 3:05 shows you the extent of my knowledge.GP 3:08 Actually, I do remember this as somebody who lives about two hours south from I love that we're saying Topeka. Sorry, everybody in Kansas says just tipica like it's to a PK, but it's, it's spelt Topeka, but it's like Quebec or Quebec. It's to be here. But I love that you say, it's like saying Comanche instead of Comanche. Anyway, doesn't matter. Gotcha. No, I remember this and trying to figure out why the heck I should care about it. Because it got, you know, like you said, national coverage and all this stuff. It's a big deal. And I just remember, how do you wanna say it looked and seemed so bizarre? Yeah, it seemed like not just the people my age were getting into it. But it was these adults, you know, wondering are not wandering around but stomping around and, and these these thematic and brightly colored anime type shirts. And to that point, all I'd ever really seen of like anime and then that kind of stuff was Dragon Ball. So I'm like, why are we not having a Dragon Ball Z day? What the hell this picture? But yeah, so I remember the event from Topeka, but I just remember being, like, bewildered and confused.Wulff 4:20 Yeah, I was just I was not into it at all when I had first heard about it and then I saw this new story. And I was like, and I lived in Vegas at the time, so it got that far at least. I was like, What the hell is Pokemon like, why is this such a big deal? And then I think I had Nintendo a Nintendo Power subscription at the time. So when my Nintendo Power came in, they started like really hamming it up with Pokemon and everything. And I was like, Hmm, okay, I can see. And then I got a little curious and I think because of the craze, my parents decided to get a copy for both me and my Brother interestingly enough, they got us both blue.Palsh 5:04 I was about to ask do they get the same color each? Because that would be justWulff 5:08 yeah. So we yeah we had a we had a house without a few Pokemon but I remember I was so into that game at the time I played the crap out I was playing it on Super Gameboy mostly because I I lived in Vegas I had lived there for a short while didn't really have any friends so I wasn't wasn't playing it at school. I just played it at home so I didn't care. I got super into it. I I'm pretty sure I beat it. Within a couple weeks, like caught new to everything. Or maybe I missed my chance to catch me too. I think I wasted my master ball is what happened. Now what was I talking about?GP 5:51 You had missed your chance to get to you? Oh, yes,Wulff 5:54 I I had missed my chance to catch me too because I blew my master ball and I think zapped or something. And so I was kind of disappointed and I ended up starting my file over and played through the game a second time over the next few weeks to finally catch me to it. That's how into it I was I do need the master ball to collect to catch him. I don't think you needed it but I think it was such a slim chance to catch him without it that it was just a pain in the butt.Palsh 6:23 Okay, that's fair.Wulff 6:25 I probably tried 2530 times and failed every time as I now I'm done. Yeah,Palsh 6:32 piece ofJake 6:33 you every time I looked it up the guides always said just save your master ball from YouTube. You want themWulff 6:37 But see, they'd sold me on the birds being the legendary Pokemon. I kind of thought I needed the master ball for that.Palsh 6:43 You know, I would have probably done the same. I wasWulff 6:45 tricked. Anyway, moving on from that. That was my experience with Gen one. How about you guys?Jake 6:52 So my Express Pokemon will see I was a pretty cool kid in high school. I know. I know. Hard to believe but all the cool kids used to play Magic the Gathering during recess and lunch. So all my friends play matches the game we played for years. And then I used to do the occasional tournament. He's one of those guys went to the local comic book store the coolest place on Earth, everybody knows. Anyway, after a while, I realized that a lot of adults stop playing magic and start playing this new game with colorful, weird, bizarre characters. And I didn't quite understand it. And one of the mentioned to me was Pokemon. And then pretty soon within a month, they stopped doing Magic the Gathering tournaments. They stopped doing Star Wars tournaments. They didn't do Star Trek anymore. They didn't do miniatures, all the all the grown men were playing Pokemon the card game, it sweeps my area. Like I've never seen anything. be such a fad before. for single lonely middle aged men in conference stores. I can't believe it.Palsh 7:50 I just like to say that pokeyman is how Canadians say it just like how we say merio not Mario.Jake 7:56 Exactly. It's the Pokemons so my experience was was here about the franchise from that. And then a friend of mine showed me an episode the cartoon and kind of went from there. And after the cartoon I've watched a few episodes cartoon, which we can talk about later. But from there I tried the video game and actually I quite hooked on the game, but I didn't play Pokemon until a couple years after the fad kind of hit. And I was probably considered too old for the franchise. I was not a kid but I played the first game. But for an RPG I've always been a fan of RPG and despite the you know, the aiming at a lower younger audience, the game is quite good. This is very solid game challenging and parts collectible hit all right, you know the edges for you. And it's great fun.Palsh 8:37 See, I I'm like from nowhere in the middle of nowhere. So we were always late when it came to getting games like that. So I remember reading it and magazines Of course. And the show Actually, I caught first before I actually played the game and I was like, Okay, I'm not a big anime fan, but this one caught my attention. I was probably in grade eight going to grade nine. Maybe I was in grade nine, something like that. So just just catch my attention. I was like, this is kind of cool. And, of course, when I watched the show made no sense because it was never aired in order. So I remember seeing probably the end of the season first and then like, then I see ash start off, you know, so I get really confusing. But I remember one guy had the game and he had both of them. You had one game boy, he had two of the games, and he had the transfer cable, but he didn't have another game book. So he gave me I think, read the play. And so that was my first experience. And I was like, Okay, let's try it. And I was like, okay, where do I get Pikachu? You don't have pika choo. I was like, Oh, you know, and so you know, I chose Squirtle because I was like the water Pokemon Pokemons over the fire ones. And I just remember, it was really fun, and I wasn't expecting it to be. So I don't know what the word is like. So straightforward. Like it felt almost like a beginners RPG I thought my head at first, but then it had, like, very simple strategies and stuff, but it was easy for me to catch on to and it was just kind of addicting. Right, right from the get go. And it's just, I remember playing it, I don't know how far I got because I didn't own it. And then, you know, my friends like deleted my game so he could play it and I was like, but I just remember seeing a meme about 10 years later, and I'll it shows the intro screen like when you first start a new game. And it says, no matter what you do, you'll never be able to experience this the same as your first time. It was like rip from like, you know, it's supposed to be like your first time with a significant other, but they basically didn't, and they dressed it up to make it look like a Pokemon game and I thought that was hilarious and ever since then, like the intro to the very first game. I was thought was really cool because of that. It's just like a very Personal feel to it. And I'm not even that huge, a Pokemon fan, so I just thought that was really nice. I thought they had, they couldn't have nailed it better.GP 11:10 I growing up had been into like tabletop type games like hero quest and like x men Mutant Chronicles and all those kind of ones. And I had itGP 11:22 here, right.GP 11:24 I was just slaying Poon, left and right. No, sorry, I shouldn't say that. I was 12. But I had a friend who had just a ton of Pokemon cards. And it's time I was living in Missouri. And he tried to show me the game and explain it to me. And I'd stayed the night over at his house one night, and I loved it. Not enough to go out and buy him. I didn't really see the need because my friend Adam. I loved you know, doing like the deck And you know it's back when you played with like the marbles or the bubbles or whatever they're called you know and not just all these things that I have is completely new and and awesome. And then he of course went out and he just had all the Pokemon stuff so he ended up getting the first two Gameboy games Forgive me for not remembering exactly which colors they were and I played one or both of them. I don't exactly remember which, but I loved them and then all of the generation to stuff started happening and I immediately lost interest. It was almost like Mega Man seven came out all over again. And I just to me, it was already this big well thought out thing. And now I've got more that I have to learn and I just, I honestly hardcore fell off after generation two and it was kind of the same with pokemon go if we end up talking about that later, Pogo came out and I loved it until like Gentoo came out. And then I'm like, Well, that's it for me. But I that's my memory of it. I loved it.Palsh 13:06 Yeah, I gotta say I'm the same way. When I played the first one, I was like, I'm the kind of guy that wanted to go for all all of them. And I knew I couldn't because you know, there's multiple playthroughs I knew I'd have to do it all myself because there was nobody to trade with. I was like, I just couldn't do it. And then I found out you can do it all over again with the next next game. I'm like, No, no, no, sorry.Jake 13:28 You mean I gotta walk bore man.Wulff 13:32 See, I was I was actually excited about golden silver. When I when I first learned about it, I was I was on board. But then a friend of mine got both of them. And he played through one of them. And then while he was playing through one, he was like, you can borrow the other one for a while, if you will. And I was like, all right, so I bought it for about a week or two. I tried playing it for a little while, and I got so annoyed with the fact that not only was it across different versions, but now The Pokemon only spawned at certain times of day. And under certain weather conditions, I guess the game had weather. I don't remember if that's if that was implemented in that one yet. But even just the morning, daytime and nighttime, completely threw me I was like, dude, I have other things to do throughout the day, I can't be expected to play Pokemon to try and catch a specific one at a certain time. I'm not going to fire the game up at three different times in the day to try and catch a certain thing or see if something different appears like it was just outside of the realm of reality for me, being a high schooler. It's like Okay, first off, morning and afternoon. They're just not going to happen.Jake 14:46 Yeah, I used to work night shifts. So try and catch Pokemon the daytime muscles be sleeping. No, thank you.Palsh 14:51 I think that's one of those things that would be really good in theory more than execution. Like if they had like an end game clock. MaybeWulff 15:01 Yeah, I thought it was a great idea. But it was not practicalGP 15:05 but right. And the reason they would never do that, like with an in game clock, and we've kind of talked about this before Simon's quest, and so I'll leave that there.Palsh 15:16 Now all of a sudden, we need Pokemon Gold and Silver redacted.GP 15:19 Oh, yes, that'll play.Jake 15:21 Well, okay, I got a question then. So if Pokemon were available during night and day time, Pokemon, generally is targeted children. Kids have to sleep at night. So does that kind of skew the game to either keeping kids out of bed or kind of doing a non to adult surveillance series? It's kinda interesting.Wulff 15:41 I think Yeah, I'm not sure I believe the timing on it was from something like 5am to 11am was considered morning. And then 11 to six or seven was day and then after that was night Okay, wasPalsh 16:00 this like based on your console's timezone? Like, how does it work onWulff 16:04 your cartridge actually had an internal battery that maintained the time of day? Okay?GP 16:10 Which one? Which game was the dinnertime Pokemon? Cuz that one would be okay.Palsh 16:17 I just send it to my friends on the West Coast Hey, hook me up.Wulff 16:21 So I I did get into the card game quite a bit as Jake touched on earlier, I had some friends who played magic but I didn't have any magic cards. And I had some other friends who liked magic, but they also didn't have magic cards. And we all kind of felt like well, it's a little late to jump on the magic train at this point. Everybody's got these badass decks, we can't really keep up. So let's try Pokemon. It's got one set out right now there's 150 cards won't be that hard to start getting into Fred right off the bat. So we did that. And I do believe at one point I actually collected the entire first set and then Pretty much the moment I did it, I was like all right, well now I don't want to have all of these anymore I'm going to start trading them to get the best deck I can make. So away my charas are away with my Venus or I started making other decks and I actually created a deck that was really overpowered that was just water type it was basically blast toys and gear it was to just own everything. We ended up spending so much time playing Pokemon and we had friends who wanted to join in to start playing with us that we altered the rule set at it at a point in time to where we figured out analogues for everything to where it could be played like magic.Palsh 17:42 Oh, nice.Wulff 17:46 That's That's how similar they were is that we figured out a way to wear anything like if the rule said one thing in Pokemon. You change it to match another rule in Magic the Gathering and you're set. See wipe off the zero On the HP and you've got it covered.Palsh 18:02 I like that because I didn't touch the card game so I could have just went straight into that and played.Wulff 18:07 Yeah, it was it was pretty wild that we did that. Some of our friends were like, Well why are you doing that? Or like, I don't know, we just we played so much Pokemon. Now we want to try it as magic.Jake 18:17 You could just by magic, you know?Wulff 18:21 Evil we already had the Pokemon cards.Jake 18:23 damn kidsPalsh 18:26 get off my lawn.Wulff 18:27 Plus that friend and I had art class together and we never did the actual assignments in that class. SoPalsh 18:35 we just blew all that time playing Pokemon or turning it into magic. Were you the kids that were making your own magic cards and Pokemon cards?Wulff 18:43 No, no, no, that was another friend of mine.Palsh 18:46 Oh man. I've never tried to no good with Photoshop now so I can't even do that to this day.Wulff 18:51 Oh, no, no, he drew them.Palsh 18:53 Oh, wow. Okay.Wulff 18:56 Anyway, um, so yeah, from the Gen one that's kind of where that stood for me. I don't think I touched so I don't think I touched the franchise again until it hit GPA. And even then it wasn't the first generation that hit GPA was when they remade red and blue as Leaf Green and fire red. I was like I haven't been into it for a while I haven't been able to but since this is a remake, maybe it'll be able to recapture that that I have been missing with the previous games. And I jumped into it. It helped me for a while I think about 3540 hours and then it lost me again. I never beat it.Palsh 19:35 That's good. That's the intro to like an Elder Scrolls game right there.Wulff 19:39 All right. 3540 hours is nothing to sneeze at for holding you But yeah, pretty sure. I mean, I played through 80 hours of the original blue the first time and then probably another 40 hours to get to the everything the second time soPalsh 19:53 respect, I played the Sapphire one on Gameboy Advance because my friend I'll never forget Get this this is what got me into it again because I didn't touch it again like after like after you said, you know just kind of dropped off like with GP you know, you got to do this all over again now. So I'm minding my own business working. I was working at a gas station I was probably 18 maybe 19 my friend came down just to visit me at work and like I'm working in the shack like it's literally smaller than a sheet of plywood is the shack that I was working in. And my friend came in so there's barely enough room for both of us stand up and he takes his pocket takes his thing and it was pocket and I thought it was like a makeup kit and I was like you bought makeup. He's like Nah, man. scam boy. I was like what so he had the Gameboy Advance SP and I never even heard of it. And what is it he goes game is the advanced is the Gameboy Advance SP. I was like, okay, and he opens up his I got Pokemon. I goes really? And he goes, Yeah, they made new one. So he had Ruby in there and he let me play it. He basically brought it down and immediately gave it to me and let me play And just like pick up and I was just collecting stuff for him and I was playing it for like 40 minutes at work, you know, I take a stop to run out and serve a customer and come back and I was playing the game. And I instantly was like, This is amazing. This is amazing. So, but I didn't have an sp right I just had the old school Gameboy that you need to be under a fluorescent light to play. And so he said, You know what, how about I get, I get the original one and you can get one and we'll play I was like, okay, cool, because you know, we could play together that way. And so we ended up ordering red for him because he had Ruby and I got blue. We're both playing it That was really mad because I had to play out in the basement in my house under fluorescent light while he was in my room, in like hanging down like in the couch that I had in my room. And so the first thing I did after I went on, I went to go to school, I went to Walmart bought an sp bought a carrying case, but Sapphire and started playing incessantly until Christmas. And then I came back and absolutely wrecked him because he stopped playing a month after I left. Wow. So I felt like a king and I still do to this day. So if you're listening thanks for we have an up buddy.Wulff 22:13 So Jake and JP Did either of you touch anything else from Gameboy or gameboy advance?GP 22:20 No, not so much I. Honestly, my exposure after that really has been from Twitch and from watching other streamers who have that deep rooted devotion to the franchise, which I do admire. But it's one of those franchises for me now, where I get a little bit of nostalgia for the old stuff. I enjoy watching the new stuff, but I don't know that I'll pick it up again.Wulff 22:49 Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about some of that. I don't think I touched it again until Diamond and Pearl for the DS. And that one held me even less than Leaf Green and fire red. So I kind of learned Lesson and I haven't bought another one since now, when go released Of course, it was free to play. I had a smartphone. My wife had a smartphone so we were like sure let's give it a shot. So we downloaded it and played the crap out of it for about two weeks. Were like our phones were just never ending we plugged inPalsh 23:24 yeah I invested in those cigarette lighter chargers two weeks from now I'm a millionaire because of that.Wulff 23:34 Oh invested it No we bought some that's what I mean by invested in chargers we we just bought itJake 23:41 I can retire on us cables and car chargers. I'd be rich by now. But for me, I I also work I worship the Gameboy Advance SP I love that system. It's one of my all time favorite system especially very handheld. I think it's King and what kind of sold me When I first saw the commercial and advertisements for fire read, and just that wave install Joe, you know, I had read, I put the hell into that game. Sure. And then you know when the game starts up, and you see ash first leaving town and that hero rock soundtrack kicks in. It just nails me it just hooks me right in. I love the hell it if I read, but then after that after I and I played that, I mean dozens if not hundreds of hours. But after that generation, I kind of fell off and I didn't touch it for years. And it really wasn't until which McCall it was new Gameboy called Gameboy 3dsPalsh 24:36 the 3ds watch mycologist chocolate,Jake 24:39 right, it's not a Gameboy. Hopefully, if you pretended really hard with the power of imagination, it could be the 3ds I end up getting 3ds and that of course every system has Pokemon games and I played Sun and Moon. I think I played the moon version. And I enjoyed it. I love how they took the game into 3d, a little bit of the models. They kind of I mean, they always alter the formula from generation to generation. But for sun and moon that kind of moved away from the idea of going to various gyms to battling Gym Leaders instead of this kind of weird Pacific Island you know quest fighting looking for these let these special Pokemon to learn from them. It was kind of a weird take on it. I didn't quite get into it. So I actually don't ever finish moon I got a couple hours into it and kind of give up.GP 25:24 And at this point, it's not that it's saturated. But he really you guys talk about like, Pearl and Sapphire and, and I just, I don't know what the differences are anymore. I think I would be tempted if I ever got like a super Gameboy. I think I would be tempted to find the the original two and replan. But aside from that and Pokemon Go like you know werewolf was talking about earlier a bit night we put in so many miles with the kiddos just wandering around Wichita, and we even we would go and take over Jim's Like actually we had one in Topeka to bring things full circle there for a little while Topeka and so I really did love polka when it first came out and again it's just the the de generation to drop down like man do I hope they do what they did with wow classic World of Warcraft. Just bring back g one everything and I'll be happy I'll go back through it.Jake 26:24 Well the fire fire red is is the perfect way to experience the first generation Pokemon again it's the same game just remastered it just looks better sounds better, but it's the same gameplay same story if you're into that there was there a storyWulff 26:39 Yeah, I think it added an island that had Pokemon from other generations like selected Pokemon, butGP 26:47 well that I can do pretty much itPalsh 26:48 Yeah, I would check that out. Like I said, I love the game when it first came out on Gameboy but one thing now going back to it and watching somebody else play it or playing it myself is the audio and it's just because mainly because Because of the sound is you know, so limited on Gameboy but the low health warning. I remember one time it gave me a headache to the point where I got a migraine. So now I just cringe when I hear. So I if I ever play it again, I'm just going to go for five red or Leaf Green.Wulff 27:17 Yeah, it's that sound kidding. Great. A. That is one thing video games have from any era, when they have that you're almost gonna die beep it just starts to get on your nerves. I don't know why that's a thing. Like I get it. If the game is really in your face with a lot of action and stuff. And it's like beeps delay, you know, Zelda is not that fast paced game. And they just throw those beeps at you until you get enough hearts. Pokemon is the same way you're in a turn based combat you all that's on screen is your Pokemon and health bars. You know you're dying.Jake 28:00 The top 10 worst sounds and video games i'd agree that the Pokemon death sound is probably up there linked to the past is probably number one but Pokemon death is up there.Palsh 28:10 I'll put it that number one it seriously it like wearable says it greats and it's just I think it's just because it's ingrained in my head now at this point where I had that one one experience I'm just like, oh no.Jake 28:23 What about the Pokemon sound effects themselves? Do you find those charming or just annoying? I thoughtPalsh 28:29 actually it was pretty impressive to go from watching the show, you know where they all basically say their own name was how the hell they make noises. But then when you actually play the Gameboy game, the original ones and you know Jigglypuff makes the same music that Do you know, it? They they kept true to that and I think even with the limited audio hardware they had, it was really impressive.Wulff 28:58 At least with some Pokemon it didn't Seemed like the they were trying to make it almost sound like they they were at least inflecting their Japanese names because a lot of them didn't have the same name in the US like bigger two and right you pretty much it least from Gen one a lot of them had very different names aside from that.Palsh 29:17 Anything noteworthy thisWulff 29:21 I think Squirtle was zinna Gamay oh wow yeah rolls off the tongue.GP 29:25 Yeah, I'm not hearing the difference my brotherWulff 29:27 had a my brother had a toy that he picked up at some toy store in Florida at one point I guess it was an important because all he said was like he hit the button and he goes and Danny You know, he was saying his Japanese name he wasn't saying the western name.Jake 29:44 My favorite Pokemon is trash bag. He balls to the trash fire.Wulff 29:51 Some Pokemon are just horrifying, like drif Loon. I don't know if you guys know of drift or not. I don't remember what generation It came from but it's a Pokemon that looks like a balloon. And what it does is it hangs out near children to try and coax them into grabbing this like going and chasing it down because oh boy, cute, pretty balloon. I must have a balloon. I'm a small child, and it'll grab their arm and steal them away.Palsh 30:20 Wow, that's like,Wulff 30:21 it just takes the children away. It's like Billy's balloon from what is that guy's name? Don Hertzfeld with all the little balloons taking the kids up into the sky and dropping them.GP 30:37 horror movies are you guys? Well, I'm sitting here thinking about penny. Well,Wulff 30:40 dude, this is a cartoon. Okay. Little tangent here. If you guys remember the Pop Tarts commercials with the really weird people, like the weird looking handwriting people were they were like chasing the Pop Tarts duranium. Those were done Hertzfeld animations for pop tarts. So Billy's balloon was an independent piece he did years before that, where it didn't have to be market friendly. It just exists.Palsh 31:11 Just exists.GP 31:13 Well, I have to chime in real quick for two things. One because I just remembered, and two is a callback to a conversation a moment ago. I completely forgot about this until just now. Pokemon Snap. I love that game. Still love that game. That game is rad. You guys can find me. I don't know if that game is popular or if everybody hates it, but I fucking love it. That's a great game. Okay. Wait, what?Wulff 31:37 It's think snap is pretty well received.GP 31:40 Okay, cool. And the other one. The other comment I have to get in here was about the most hated beeping noise in video games. And I would like to point out the soundtrack to 1942 because that doesn't just be Pichu when you're about to die. That's just the soundtrack.Jake 32:00 You know the real speed runs 1942 you have to blur the soundtrack otherwise cheatingWulff 32:04 oh my god have real speed run is to beat it in 1941GP 32:09 that is some some Marty McFly stuff that I'm not prepared for. That's okay, so yeah, that was my two cents. Pokemon Snap THUMBS UP 1942 shit soundtrackJake 32:23 when you guys mentioned like badly named Pokemon like Drake foon the one that stands out for me and ash, he's a favorite of mine in Pokemon moon. It's me muku. And it's let me just read the descriptions from Sun and Moon just so you have an appreciation for why like this one. Its actual appearance is unknown. A scholar who saw what was under its reg was overwhelmed by terror and died from the shock.Palsh 32:46 WhatJake 32:46 after going through all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad. Wow. It's literally a Pikachu. It's a rag on a stick With a crudely drawn Pikachu face in ears it's hilarious Pokemon as you can tell if it's a description What is this thing called? Me Miku it's just it's just hilarious I it's sad and disturbed but I love the Pokemon origin stories are terrible like they're frightening for kids game.Wulff 33:15 One Which one? The mimic you? Okay, my firstJake 33:19 sudden moon by a Maven in an earlier game.Wulff 33:22 Yeah That thing is nightmare fuel.Jake 33:25 I love it though, because it can take a free hit and then it's disguised goes away, and it's basically invisible to ghost Pokemon, but it gets that free hit no matter what. So it's a fantastic Pokemon. It's my favorite.GP 33:35 It looks like one of those yarn doll versions of a Pokemon from like little big world or whatever it was. Oh, sackboy Yeah, yeah.Wulff 33:45 Little Big, Little Big Planet. Thank you. sackboy was the main character.GP 33:49 Okay, I thought maybe it was a translation difference between the lower 48 in Canada.Palsh 33:58 There's a metric equivalent in there somewhere. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.GP 34:02 Yeah, so I at some point, I do feel like it's not that they haven't kept trying when it comes to the naming and designs of some of the late Gen Pokemons. But they have kind of become Forgive me for this the equivalent of like, Stephen King novel plots. It's like are you really trying right now? Is This Really? Is this really part of what you're What were you just joking? Like that's how that's where it's at. for me. It's like how, how many Pokemon are there as of September 2019. Something like 800 I'm sorry, I had a stroke. How manyGP 34:40 800 807GP 34:45 I can barely keep up with 151 that's all I'm saying.Palsh 34:49 Yeah, sameJake 34:50 Okay, Pokemon wrap. Let's go 123 anybody?Wulff 34:56 Okay, man, Pokemon GOGP 34:59 ninja. Ninja rap. Yeah, I thinkWulff 35:05 I just couldn't remember the Pokemon rap. So that's where I went.Palsh 35:08 Slow po YouTube dedeker route aerodactyl. That'sGP 35:13 right. We got we're going to have to pay some money. No polish.Palsh 35:17 Yeah. Okay. Let's go make instead let's go make a toe mimic you instead of Topeka, choo. Oh,Wulff 35:27 speaking of Topeka to you. They they actually did it again. Last year and 28th anniversary.Jake 35:37 Oh God, they did it again. Same city.Wulff 35:39 Yes. Same city for the 20 year anniversary of it. They did it again for a day. Okay. thought that was interesting, butGP 35:48 that speaks a lot to the mentality of Kansas. Here's what I mean by that. Topeka has to be come to peek at you. There's a place here that is called Hutchinson better now. North of where I live, and that is widely considered as Smallville what Smallville from the Superman mythos would be if it were real. And so where I'm going with this is the idea the ideology for Kansas tourism is, Hey, come here and we'll pretend it's somewhere else.Jake 36:22 It's like trying to bring back the rim sunglasses. They're terrible idea and tacky in the 80s to bring him back now in 2019 is just pathetic.Jake 36:32 Is that a thing? I've seen some people were in I'm in my city. Every every 10 years yeah,Palsh 36:37 that they Yes. You see a trend. Come back.GP 36:40 You say that. But the matrix is coming back. So that's cool. So it's hit or miss.Palsh 36:45 But yeah, never went away.GP 36:47 Yeah, that's if you come into Kansas ever. The state line sign says, Welcome to Kansas. We're sorry.Palsh 36:57 It's the Canada of the United States.Wulff 37:01 So, moving back on to the Pokemon I did actually get to try let's go recently Oh yeah, my kid got it a while back my brother actually got him the, the the poker ball plus. So we started playing that a while back and he he loves it he has a blast with it because he gets to pretend he's a Pokemon trainer throwing the ball and catching the Pokemon. It's a blast, right? And when we fired it up, it said that there was a gift inside the poker ball. And when it told us that the poker ball made one of the sounds that you know one of the Gameboy Pokemon sounds from way back when and I didn't know what Pokemon It was. It was like I spent ages I don't know, I don't even think I knew which Pokemon made what sound back was back then. You know. So we played far enough to see about opening up this gift and seeing what was in it and then we opened it and it was a freaking newJake 38:00 Wow that's pretty awesomeWulff 38:01 he's not even at the first gym yet and now he's got a mew is randomized or does everyone I don't know if everybody gets a mew or if it's kind of random for rare Pokemon in general and we just got really lucky or oneJake 38:17 of us part of it didn't look into the only way you can get them you in that game is if you pay the 6070 bucks for the Pokeball accessory oh wow like in the original game that I think they gave me away there's usually had some kind of like public event and they let you get access Yeah,Wulff 38:31 they did mall events all over the place. And you had to go wait in line and have your Gameboy and your cartridge just fired up trade get your meJake 38:44 wants to do that again recently with sun and moon or pokemon go one of the two there's a new one that is literally a bolt like a nut like a metal and steel not that's a Pokemon now I think his name is meltin and I want to say done locket. You had to go What was events?Wulff 39:01 But I do have to say I kind of enjoy how let's go plays it feels less tedious since encounters with wild Pokemon or just throw balls at it and catch it move on. There's no beating it up to try and catch it there's just smashing the A button over and over to get it over with because every interaction if it's not a trainer battle, it's over in like 15 seconds. If that is you try using enjoy. So that was actually kind of nice. Um, no, we haven't played it with the joy con yet. He's just been playing with the poker ball playJake 39:33 with the joy con because you can play with two players kind of in that game. I play with my kids and we don't have the pokemon ball. But joy cons are hot garbage with it. And you spend 10 balls trying to hit a goddamn Pokemon. But it's all trade.Wulff 39:46 Oh, he catches it every frickin time with the poker ball. Plus, it's ridiculous. The little tiny circle. He's getting excellent, amazing. Yeah, I don't know what it is. But he's also playing like five feet from a 42 inch TV. That At his eye level soJake 40:02 well clearly he's destiny a Pokemon master he just said him outside world with a baseball hat and a backpack and said Good luck.Wulff 40:09 Yeah, well he's not 10 yet he's only five he's halfway there.Palsh 40:13 Hell I'm 35 and I'm not ready for thatWulff 40:18 Alright, so let's let's let's touch on the anime and the movies a little more. I'm going to openly admit and open myself up for mockery here. I saw a Pokemon the first movie Pokemon 2000 and Pokemon I don't know what it was called Pokemon three. I don't know if that's what it was called. Something else the one with MJ. I saw all three of those in theaters. I never saw a single one of them to be honest.GP 40:43 I'm sorry. What was it? Hint hint? A No You saidWulff 40:48 I it was some big orange dog thing that looked kind of like a growl either andGP 40:54 it was bigger googling hint a right now and it's it's not popping up anything like what you're talking about?Wulff 41:01 That's that was the last one I saw that I was kind of like and now my phone crashed but but when I when I saw the first one in theaters, I legit teared up. I don't know if you guys have seen that movie, but toward the end,GP 41:17 I think the only one I saw was Pokemon 2000 and that was at a drive in theater. That was also showing Casper Do you guys remember that with Christina Ricci? That was like the double feature, and I think that's the only time I saw Pokemon 2000Wulff 41:37 pretty sure that movie came well before Pokemon 2000GP 41:40 Oh yeah, I'm not saying it was topical. I'm just saying that's what was playing.Jake 41:44 It was a classic. For me it was the less the movies and more the cartoon the first season and Pokemon the anime that's like a guilty pleasure for me. I watched it with my kids not too long ago and every time Pikachu I know it's me fine. I know his will never die ever. But anytime he's in mortal peril and he's just beaten up, and he gives that little cry and clutches them tightly like a baby. I should have single tier every time. I don't care who hates mePalsh 42:14 hates you. Everybody relates to you now.GP 42:17 Yeah. Who would show hate? Like how dare you have feelings toward this cartoon? Yeah,Wulff 42:22 it's it's funny how much more prevalent Pokemon is these days than it was when you know generation one released but with Gen one they had what two or three musical albums that released with the anime and it was ridiculous and I don't know what they they do that stuff anymore. I'm pretty sure it's just the games and plushies mostly at this point.Jake 42:44 In terms of merchandise. Oh, there's all kinds of merchandise. Yeah.Wulff 42:48 My my brother had one of the CDs that to be a master album. Attract microphone master. Turn offPalsh 42:55 the tape right the ghetto blasterUnknown Speaker 42:58 Exactly.Palsh 43:00 That's That's some 41Jake 43:01 but I went over overseas to Tokyo there. We actually went to other Pokemon centers, but we didn't even we didn't need to go to that store. There's Pokemon everywhere in Tokyo I guess that goes up saying but from cookies to juice, the vending machine to underwear, literally everything. And I still see a lot of that over here too. I still I still see the occasional Pokemon figurines and toys and stuff.Wulff 43:21 We went to the mall a couple weeks ago here and I saw a little like one of those stands and it wasn't really a kiosk but it was like a standalone vending machine kind of thing. But it was called a Pokemon Center and it had a vending machine on one side with a bunch of Pokemon merge in it, and then it had a poker decks on another side where you could like look at the different Pokemon and it was kind of wild.Jake 43:45 Well, I was just actually just at the CME in Toronto. It's basically a big fair exhibition in the UK carnival games, that kind of thing. And some of the prizes are obviously knockoff Pokemon merchandise, right? And I saw a family like with three kids and strollers One of the kids was clutching a I mean a gigantic Pikachu. Like it was probably two three feet long. It's huge. And this pair of guys and I mean, buff, gym looking dudes, six and a half, seven feet tall, just the toughest guys walking down the street or the the avenue and they see the kid with the giant Pikachu and they walk up, hands on hips like yo yo, would you get that Pikachu and the basketball game? Oh, thanks so much and then they just ran ran for the carnival game but the games to get their own tickets you know just to show you that the generation who love Gen one are all like you know 30 plus now for the most part and have that just love a peek into stuff.Wulff 44:45 Oh yeah, Pikachu. I mean, they knew that was a gold mine from the get go. It they were in Topeka you there was friggin Pokemon Yellow. I think to this day, they still brand pretty much Every console with a Pikachu to some extent, even if it's a limited release, ridiculous. But yeah, I gotta say I'm I do like the older cartoons. There's probably only one line I still remember from the original movie. Or maybe it was the second movie I don't know is from one of the movies, there was a really bad line that I choose, you know? No, no, no nothing. And I'm pretty sure it was the second movie because it was a bunch of people on a yacht. I don't know, it might have been the first movie I really don't remember, but there's a bunch of people on a boat and you overhear them talking like there's people at different tables eating and talking and it passes by one table and you hear a guy go, and I said, No, I just had crab bees and everybody burst into laughter. I was like, Oh my god, that is not a kid friendly joke.Jake 45:56 Even crabs is a Pokemon.Jake 45:59 Gotta catch mallGP 46:05 Okay, here's a question. Because I legit don't know, in the Pokemon universe, are there what we would consider normal animals? Like is there like a like a dog just a regular canine? Or is every single animal in that universe of Pokemon?Wulff 46:27 I feel like generation one the way we were introduced to Pokemon made it sound like there were other animals that were not Pokemon. But the further we get into the franchise, if you like, the less, that seems to be the case. Right? Which is really bizarre because I'm pretty sure oak said that all the Pokemon shared a lot of common genes. Okay, and so that means they're like, all these Pokemon are just weird mutants and we're just living on their planet.GP 47:00 Just how uneventful and underwhelming and potentially scary would it be to be like a dog? Or like a regular domestic house cat in the Pokemon world be horrifying, and you'd be let down to everybodyJake 47:17 with your account Oh, you're sure the cow will eat you will grind you into burgers but you know mu tanks or whatever the cow pokeyman is? Yeah milk bankWulff 47:27 andJake 47:28 Toro him. He's a Pokemon special. Eat that goddamn cow, rightGP 47:38 Okay, thereWulff 47:40 we go question can you carve up a milk and eat some of it leave it alive take it to a Pokemon Center and heal itJake 47:49 the question doesn't want you to think aboutUnknown Speaker 47:52 right yeah.Wulff 47:53 With the with the hard questions will be getting that cease and desist very soon.GP 47:59 There's always He's that kid at school who runs up and you're like, oh, man, check it out. You know, I got this cool new thing that everybody has. And it's the offering thing that you know, you had to get from the dollar store that that was me growing up so I can make this year. But that kid shows up with a pokey ball. He's like, Can I just check it out? I got like a Meowth. And he opens it and it's just like a cat. Like, damn it, Randall. You know, go back to the corner. That's horrible. That's how bullying starts. And it's not funny.Jake 48:34 Robots aren't real transformers. Back to eat and paste. I'm just picturing now somebody's taking a cat into Pokemon battle. just pulling in a cat carrier like the opponent's like charges are going from smokey ball. And then some guy with a cat carrier. Smell with go nuts.Palsh 48:53 And it's like I said house can literally a house. Yeah. And it's like way more feral than the He hasGP 49:00 a Pokemon delivers takes down the gear dose, and it gets disqualified but like kindaPalsh 49:07 like Karate Kid, you know wins with that illegal kick to the head.GP 49:12 Yeah, but at that point everybody had already stormed the man. I'm sorry. Effective.Palsh 49:20 Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, the press beat cancel. This is how we normally talk. Yeah, I apologize. SoWulff 49:28 I think it's almost time to hit be so let's go ahead and go around and see what everybody's favorite point in the series was. I think for me, it's pretty safe to say it was just Pokemon blue period. I that's I played the crap out of it. I played through it two or three times. I traded for every single Pokemon And that my friends and I figured out how to do the missing no nonsense and all that. It's blue holds a special place in my heart that no other entry in the game has in the French has been able to replicate.GP 50:02 Cool, cool. I think for me, my favorite moments, or era of Pokemon is the day after I was introduced to Pokemon, because I got the idea of what it was. And my mind was like being expanded to see what the rules were for the card game and then gradually introduced to all this other stuff. And it was just this amazingly fun idea. And so to be at the front door, of all the stuff that you know, you're about to learn, it's going to be awesome. That was that was magic. That was absolute magic. So for me, that was my favorite part.Jake 50:43 You know, for me, it's Pokemon. It's when's the spin off? That's the stuff I enjoy the most and actually quite like what they're doing today or nowadays with it. Detective Pikachu is probably good. Good spin on I believe there was a game on the 3ds for that. And I just love how to peek at you with a little character, and he's in he's in this combat situation or you think he's going to be with his friend there who has tried to peek at you. And he's like Pikachu use Thunderbolt. And detective Pikachu just looks at this guy and says use Thunderbolt. And to me, that's just like, the funniest thing in the planet, right? Like, humans order around animals do battle, and the animal turning to you and say, What the hell are you talking about? I love to pick at you that the recent movie, the CGI movie, I thought was actually really great. And I hope to do more crazy stuff like that. Like the mainline games are fun at all. But when they take Pokemon and put it into different situations that spin off, I love that kind of stuff.Palsh 51:39 Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I like that. And I haven't even seen the movie yet. So now I really want to see it. But for me, it's definitely I want to say Sapphire because I was playing it so much like it was probably from like August to December. I didn't really play anything else. I'd be watching the movie gravity. We're watching a movie and I playing the game. But I think it's just that introduction to Sapphire, by playing Ruby is probably my fondest memory of the entire franchise just because my friend came down out of the blue. And it's just one of those things like we were both at a high school and I just remember that it was just is a memory that I'll always cherish and I don't know. It was just cool. It's It was like a new era of video games for me, soWulff 52:27 I think that's fair. Alright, so I think we can go ahead and wrap upPalsh 52:34 this list of her favorite Pokemon real quick,GP 52:37 Ryan Reynolds.Wulff 52:38 Oh, I see. I can't talk today. debido Danny DeVitoWulff 52:47 could youGP 52:50 honestly, if I could have like a real life Pokemon. I'd want it to be a growl if they're so cool looking. Yeah, they are pretty cool. And I feel safe and cuddly? You can't cuddle a gear a doseWulff 53:04 I'm not even a cat person but I liked Persian don't know whyGP 53:10 I think that silence is a little bitWulff 53:13 it was a cat that could literally create money out of nothing soPalsh 53:18 yeahGP 53:18 yeah that's a great option only keptWulff 53:19 the least if you evolved it from mouth and Persian was way cooler than me out soPalsh 53:24 that's true that's good solid logic I'll agree with you for there Matt that it's not gonna be my favorite but it's respectable. Jake What do you just like the one you actuallyJake 53:35 I like them we're actually gonna go with Ryan rattle on that goes right right I love rock Canadian Ryan Reynolds is a fantastic Pokemon But no, I like the one I don't even know his name. But it's basically a steel ring with keys attached and that's a Pokemon. I love that one. I'm not I'm not even kidding. I don't notice they marryWulff 53:53 you coming up with the jinglingJake 53:54 key Pokemon is the best of all.GP 53:58 The okay real quick, just to Bring this whole thing home. Sick Jay, did you play with Gobots I think somebody who's played a trick on youJake 54:08 know Gobots I had one Optimus Prime and I had my toy that was itPalsh 54:13 turns out he's kept attacking YuGiOh or, or digium on all this time.Wulff 54:19 This is Pocket Monsters not digital monsters.GP 54:24 Also, I think if if you have a life that you know, you want to escape your life than the me the the Mewtwo sorry, is the Pokemon that you want. Because then if he's cool, he can just get in your mind and you can live whatever life you want. Yes,Wulff 54:41 that's true,GP 54:43 too, and introduce people like, Hey, this is my Pokemon. It's kind of a dick. Or you'd be like, Hey, I don't feel like doing anything today. Can you get in my head and making things that I'm on Jupiter.Wulff 54:53 So you're wanting you to be your own personal Total Recall.GP 54:58 That is exactly what I'm saying. That was perfectly stated where I was going to say he wanted a pet Dr. ManhattanPalsh 55:03 but okay.Jake 55:06 A pet What? Whoa, wait a minute 12 his penis and a Pokemon sounds good to me.Wulff 55:11 I got that reference.GP 55:17 Okay, first off, I have to point out stick Jake uses metric. I don't think he knows what bobbins means. Man I think Sorry guys, I'm sorry. I've loved this this episode, but I'm sorry that I've been the main reason we've gotten off track. I'm so sorry.Palsh 55:44 I think it's fine. minds fit my favorite Squirtle By the way, dicks.Wulff 55:52 Oh, yeah, there's a good question. What was your starters from Jen one Squirtle realPalsh 55:57 quick. I always go with the Pokemon if given a chance,Wulff 56:02 mine was CharmanderPalsh 56:03 sucka.Wulff 56:05 Being original I named him Bernie.Jake 56:08 I use I always wanted the fire type or the ones that look like a cat. I was a cat person and like half this team, and I usually named them stupid things like dog food, frozen peas, creamed corn, stuff like that. Don't ask me why, dude. My dude, no.GP 56:26 Actually, I was watertight to I went with with Squirtle. And I kind of want to change my answer to my favorite being cubone because of how heartbreaking The story is that yes,Palsh 56:36 I love the cubone Yeah, let's not bring it up here because I don't want to cry. But, uh, anybody who's listening, if you don't know the story of a cubone, you should check it out. Because it's Yeah, it is actually worth looking up. SoGP 56:49 just yeah, here's all you have to Google is whose skull is cubone wearing And if that's not the most emotion you've ever heard Yeah, I love it. Also, I mean but yeah, the key chain one is nice to J it's fineJake 57:05 I have look his name upWulff 57:09 anyway this has been presby to cancel I was your host this week thank you for having me for a second week now.Palsh 57:14 Who are you aWulff 57:17 werewolf? You can find me on Twitch and TwitterPalsh 57:21 w ar EWL ffWulff 57:25 I was going to leave it to the imagination this time but thank youPalsh 57:28 all right Polish take it away Hi my name is sick Jake you can find me on Twitter as well as a weight not I'm post one on you find me on Twitch at pulse 109 pls HWulff 57:41 and GPGP 57:43 know go for it. Go for it Jay.Jake 57:47 Thanks GP. For the record. His name is Cliff key cholesky the key chain Pokemon it resembles a key ring with four keys aspherical head and a small pink oval on his forehead anyway That's that's his life story. That's pretty much it. It's also dark and jiggli My name is sick Jake you can find me sick Jake on Twitter or on Twitch. I'm a part time by annual never streamerWulff 58:10 and then our resident derailer Gp.GP 58:14 Yeah, this is GP. Typical spelling. Sorry. And you can find me on the retro therapy, which is of course on Twitch. We're also on Twitter and Instagram, as the retro therapy.Wulff 58:29 Alright, thank you everybody for tuning in. band EQ pqPalsh 58:36 certain music here. Wait, that's not how the song goes.Jake 58:45 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last ancient on YouTube. The more episodes please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anything. Where else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows? As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 59:06 a do againSpecial thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Read to the bottom for FREE access to Linda's Workshop, "Mary and Martha Decide to Homeschool". Yvette recently had the privilege of sitting down with Linda Lacour Hobar, author of The Mystery of History, for an interview for The Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast. In this discussion they explore how you can determine if you are a “Mary” or a “Martha” personality type, and how that will affect your homeschooling, parenting, and marriage.  Through homeschooling her children, and service as a missionary, Linda discovered a genuine love for world history where famous and not-so-famous people have shaped time itself by the mighty hand of God. Watch the video of this full interview for free on the Schoolhouse Rocked Backstage Pass website. In the year 2000, Linda sensed a clear call to write The Mystery of History series for her children, grandchildren, and generations to come. Since then, this “Chronological, Christian, Complete” program has become a hit with readers of all ages. While fact-filled and thought provoking, Linda’s writing style is warm and personable. The Mystery of History has been awarded “Best Homeschool History Resource” in 2012; Cathy Duffy’s “100 Top Picks”; Mary Pride’s “Practical Homeschooling Reader Award”; and The Old Schoolhouse “Excellence Award.” Backstage Pass members get access to an exclusive, 25-minute bonus video, in which Linda Lacour Hobar gives "10 Tips for Homeschooling as a 'Mary'". Not a Backstage Pass Member yet? Save 10% on any paid membership when you use the coupon code "PODCAST10". Backstage Pass memberships go directly to support production on Schoolhouse Rocked: The Homeschool Revolution. More from Linda Lacour Hobar: Get your copy of The Mystery of History Check out The Mystery of History Video Lecture Series online! Get Linda's Mary and Martha workshop for FREE! Use the coupon code ruMaryorMartha to download of Linda's "Mary and Martha Decide to Homeschool" workshop today. (Coupon expires 12/30/2019) Let’s pretend that Mary and Martha decide to homeschool. Following their character, Martha would probably have all her plans in place (and be frustrated), and Mary would probably be at the feet of Jesus (and way behind schedule.) We all have a little of Mary and Martha is us, but this workshop is designed to encourage Marys – who love the Lord and their children, but need help and structure to successfully homeschool. The presenter of this workshop is a self-proclaimed Mary (Linda Lacour Hobar, author of The Mystery of History) who managed to homeschool for 17 years, and still likes to talk about it. Download your free workshop here, when you use the coupon code ruMaryorMartha.     Transcript (automatically generated - spelling and grammar errors are guaranteed!) Yvette Hampton:           Hey everyone, this is Yvette Hampton and I am so glad to have you back with me for the podcast and I have an amazing guest on today who I actually have had on the podcast once before. So you are a return guest, which is really fun. Linda Lacour Hobar is the author of The Mystery of History. I'm sure many of you use it, but If you don't, you definitely want to check it out. Our family uses it. We use the audio version and we have the book version as well, which we absolutely love.                         As a matter of fact, I remember when we first started homeschooling and we were looking for a history curriculum that was taught from a Biblical perspective. And that was really important to us. And we've talked a lot about this on the podcast that we wanted something that was going to direct our girls’ hearts towards Scripture. And so many, many people said, well you need to get The Mystery of History. And I was like, it has a really cool name, so it must be great. And now I am sitting in the dining room of Linda and it is so much fun to get to sit here. We for those of you who have been tracking with us over the past year, my actually past couple of years, you know that we travel a lot and we've been traveling for filming the movie. And so this summer we have traveled a lot.                         We have been on the road the entire summer and we were coming through Memphis and you had mentioned to me awhile back that you lived in the Memphis, Tennessee area. And so I called you up and I said, Hey, can we come and see you? And so here we are sleeping in hers. I'm an empty nester and have three guest rooms. I'm like, absolutely. You come on, you are. And, and it's been fun. Talk about that a little bit about your family. Cause you were a homeschool mom for many years. Actually, through your whole, your children's childhood, right? So you've got three kids. Tell us about your kids really quickly. Yes. So we homeschooled for 17 years and my children are very much grown up now. They're 34 30 and 26 which means that I was homeschooling back in the late eighties and nineties right before there was.com can you even imagine there was no internet, there was no cell phones. Linda:               So, I'm a true veteran. Yeah. I wish sometimes that we were back in those days because it seems like things would have been simpler in a way where they probably yes and no. There was fewer opportunities which actually left us home more and at home we got things done. So there is that beauty because homeschool does work best at home. Right. I would say one of today's homeschool moms challenges is that there is so much opportunity that you have to kind of be careful because you could wind up, you're away from the house and then you're not homeschooling your everywhere else but home. So it's right. Sometimes there's simpler days really. There's some legitimate to that. Yes, yes. And we always are having to find a balance between having our kids socialized, of course, because that was always the big thing for so many years is you know, homeschool kids are cooped up in their houses all day, every day of the week and they need to get out and explore the world and socialize with people. Yvette:             And so, it was, I think the tides have shifted, but somehow, they've shifted almost to the extreme, right? Being away from the home so much. So we do have to find an important balance. And you've been in the homeschool community for a really long time because, I don't know, when did you first write The Mystery of History? Linda:               Volume one: 2000. I was having a midlife crisis of sorts. I was turning 40. It was the year 2000 and now y'all all know how old I am. And I was praying for about a year. The Lord was stirring it in my heart, but it was in the year 2000 that I started writing. Yvette:             Wow. God has used you in an amazing way to write this curriculum that still, you know, 19 years later God is still using it and you've gotten your revisions coming out.                         You have a new revision that just came out for volume one and it's beautiful. You guys, I got to see it today and it's colorful and it's vibrant and it a, you've just done an amazing job in, it's not just the colorful pictures in it, but the content that is in it and we, our family lives The Mystery of History. It's, it's what we use for history. So take God be the glory. That's right. And as I'm hearing, you know, I've really gotten to hear your heart for families and homeschool moms and really what God has put on you to help moms like myself who really are not history buffs like you are. And so you've been able to help me to teach history, but you go to homeschool conventions and you get to speak to families all over the country, which is amazing. And I remember meeting you back in, I think it was March, we were at Teach Them Diligently in Nashville and we were talking about some of your workshops and you said you did one on Mary and Martha. Linda:               “Mary and Martha Decide to Homeschool.” Yvette:             That's right. And I was so intrigued by it and I was like, wow, I really want to know more about this. And so that's why we're doing a podcast with you today. Cause I want to talk more about this whole Mary and Martha idea cause I'm not sure yet where I fall in line with. Am I a Mary? Am I a Martha? So, so let's talk about this. Explain to me this workshop that you do on and Martha. Well, in order to do this subject, any justice, we really do need to go to the Scripture first and find there's four stories about married Martha in the new Testament. And for those who may not know, these sisters, there's Mary Martin, their brother Lazarus, and their stories really are fabulous. It still amazes me that we actually have this insight into these new Testament lives. I mean just how precious they are. So, without being too much of a Bible teacher, I am going to just follow the Scripture so that we start there because really, we're only deriving and gleaning things that we think we could know about them. I mean, I've not met these ladies, but based on some of their responses to Jesus, this is what picking up. So Linda:               Then that all applies to homeschool moms and we're going to get there. So if I may, I'll start with Luke tin has the classic story that most people know. That's the one you might be familiar with. You hear pastors preach on it. And this is the story where basically Jesus comes to visit Mary and Martha and Lazarus in their home. And Martha is a bit perturbed with her sister because Martha feels like she's doing all the work in the kitchen. And she were literally fusses and kind of wags her finger and like, Jesus, will you not rebuke my sister who's just sitting around listening to you? And so that's the famous story. And the end of that story is that Jesus does not rebuke Mary. He's actually like, no, Martha, you're missing it. She's doing the better thing because Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus sitting, wanting to eat clean wisdom from him and learn from him listening.                         And of course, all my Martha friends will say, somebody had to put the food on the table, and I know that and we're going to get to that. And she has a servant's heart. Martha does. But Jesus does push back on that. He's like, you're missing it. You're missing the heart. You know, don't be so consumed. But another story in the new Testament that's much longer, but we can get a lot of the two gals out of it is the S the passages that come out of John 11. And so this is the story. So we've already had the story in John of them just serving Jesus. But this is another story now where Lazarus, their brother is actually dying. And so Mary and Martha, a call out to Jesus like, please come because our brother is so sick, he's dying. Well, interesting. The passage says in John 11:5five, “Now, Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.”                         So right there to clear the air. He doesn't favor one sister over the air. He never does. He loves them all. And then it goes on to say, so when he heard that he was sick as in Jesus, when he heard Lazarus was sick, he stayed two more days in the place where he was. So Jesus purposefully delayed his visit to let something horrible happen. The man's just sick. Jesus doesn't go right away. And it's not because he doesn't care. It's because he has a plan. So I think it's very interesting that we see that Jesus just allowed something to happen. So Lazarus does die. And then what happens next is that we get a picture of Martha's response first to Jesus once he finally shows up and she's peeved. And then we have a picture of Mary when Jesus shows up. So let me glean a little out of this just with you.                         It says now Martha, as soon as she heard Jesus was coming when and met him, but Mary was sitting in the house, so can't you just picture Martha? She kind of marches over there like Jesus and she says, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever you ask of God, God will give you. Now, what is critical in this is that Jesus has such a relationship with Martha. He must respect her, right? Because what he does to respond to her is give her a theology lesson, one that he won't give Mary, but they don't give to Martha. This is an incredibly faithful woman. I mean, I do love Martha. And he goes on to say to her, I am the resurrection and the life like boom. I mean he just lays it on her and you know, keep in mind this little new Testament family, they haven't yet known Jesus to die and be risen from the dead yet they don't know and they don't know that I don't even know what the hell are you referring to.                         So that's like, okay, but Martha says, and we have the record of her faith and testimony. Martha says, yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the son of God who has come into the world. Whoa. I mean this is an amazing woman, right? And again, she has not yet seen Jesus die and come back to life. But she is like convinced. So she has great faith. But anyway, the story goes on and Martha sins word and says, Jesus is so many of you. But, but she tells her in secret. I don't know why Martha feels like she has to tell that to Mary in secret, except that maybe she's afraid Mary's going to cause a scene. This is just my guess is like I know when I go to a restaurant with my family and they're always like, mom, you know, don't call the scene if you don't like me to bring them birthday presents at restaurants because I want to call it a scene.                         So, I just picked her. Mary is much more demonstrative or feelings or something. So Martha's like just in secret, like Jesus is summoning you, which again, Martha has to meet him on the road. But Jesus summons Mary. So he is tuned in her broken heart. The brother's dead, right. So what's interesting is, so then it says also Mary has a little support group. So she's there with her friends as it says, you know, the Jews are with her in the house or comforting her. So Larry has a support group. Martha doesn't, she's self-sufficient, right? But Mary has a little group of people in any way. It says Mary then went to Jesus and saw him and she fell down at his feet and said, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. The exact same words Martha said, but in a different posture, right?                         And in a different manner. Martha's kind of busted and a Mary's broken and at his feet. And I think the picture, I get a Mary over and over that she up, very broken woman. We don't know her whole story, but I see a lot of brokenness on her. She's very distraught a lot. So she's more weeping. And then when Jesus sees her weeping, do you know what he did? Is it's the shortest verse in the Bible. You know the one come to Jesus. What? Jesus wept. Jesus isn't weeping because Lazarus is dead. He's weeping because he loves his people and he sees their pain. He's weeping at Mary's broken heart. He's not so prized, and he's not surprised. And of course, the next part of the story is that he does in fact raise Lazarus from the dead. We don't hear peep out of the sisters.                         Again, I'm on that particular thing. But Lazarus is raised from the dead. What an incredible, just foreshadowing of what price is going to do. So any way to beat him. But here's something neat. There's another story of them. Okay, so I've given you, there's the classic stories. Then there's the raising of Lazarus, but there's one more. John 12 get this as a six days before the Passover came to Bethany where Lazarus was, who had been dead, who he raised from the dead and there they made him a supper, get this and Martha serve. It's like, and she had learned a thing. She's still serving because Martha is Martha, right? So Jesus get her, she's an toner and Mary's doing a better thing, but she's still serving because somebody still has to put the dinner on the table and it's Martha. Yeah, this woman is faithful, so I still love her, but this is what is happening.                         In contrast then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, wiped his feet with her hair and the houseless filled with the fragrance of the oil. How many of you guys lose, you know, use essential oils, right? Can't you just imagine the fragrance we're talking about a year's worth of wages is what this oil costs. This is an extravagant act of worship. Now picture this too. She's wiping his feet with her hair. Well, I know that that was a certain tenderness and all, but I also, there's a part of me thinking this was a spontaneous act of worship. Was she unprepared? Did she not like bring a cloth? Right? And like knowing in speech, she's like, I'll just use my hair like she is. So this is so just, she's probably really not thinking ahead because again, they could have used this money maybe differently, but we know in her spirit, she's anointed him as the savior.                         He is, she wants to serve. And it's again a foreshadowing up because the, these oils, this is like burial, ceremonial preparation and all this. And I don't even know if she knows that, but she's just doing this. Now what's so neat is that of course the disciples bus, Oh, you know, this could have been used and given to the poor. Jesus says, let her alone. She has kept us for the day. My burial, they still don't even know he's going to die. Right. And so let her alone and then it goes on and there's this bonus in Mark that just, this is what gets to me, Mark, another gospel writer will say this is Jesus speaking. And he says, assuredly, I say to you, where ever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a Memorial to her, Oh wait a minute, the Bible over and over spotlights Jesus.                         But in this one instance, Jesus is going back to what Mary had done again. I'm picturing a broken woman. She's not getting the dinner on the table. People are fussing at her. She's got a support group. She cries a lot. She's kind of a mess. She had broken this oil, puts it on his feet and everything and Jesus says that that act would be remembered where ever the gospel is preached. Well, that's a message for eternity and I just am kind of like still a little taken back that of all the little heroes of the faith, he could have pointed out, he points a little light at Mary just a minute. Like it's okay with him that she's on meth. Yes. Like he really is okay. K with that and loves her despite her. Like maybe he just loves it. She so needs him because this is what I'm picturing is and needy woman.                         I'm thinking of homeschool moms all over the country right now. Right. That's the context of this talk is you got to know these sisters. Yes. Yes. So, okay, so the workshop that you do is titled Mary and Martha decided to homeschool. Right? Which, which I love this cause as you're talking about Mary, I'm thinking of we're, we're probably split down the middle between homeschool moms. You know, the mom said, I talked to you, many of them are married, many of them are Martha. And there are so many aspects and personality traits from each one of them. So can we talk a little bit more about that? Because I want to figure out like, yeah, who, who personalities, who am I? I want you to tell me today who I am. We have a crave coming to know me a little bit. So you might already have an idea.                         I think I am and, and I'm a giveaway to probably by the way, I'm already speaking, but let's, let's hold that thought. Okay, let's go to the personalities. Just kind of dissect them. And I got a little professional help with this one because there was a man named Anthony who writes about these learning styles. And so based on some of his, I've applied his findings to married Marco. So he didn't do the Mary Martha part. That was just for me. But he would say, let me back up a minute. That people by personality typically are either concrete or they're abstract. So let's pause concrete meaning some people really thrive and bloom and grow on very tangible things. Black and white, right or wrong a B, I mean they're just concrete and so they manage things well. Then the abstract person is all over the place.                         The abstract is really a gross in the intangibles. The non-measurables. So they're inspired by beauty, love, peace, things you can't touch and hold. But that means something. Okay. So you have two very different, so people typically are concrete or abstract, but on top of that there's a way that people process those things and they process some typically either sequentially, which is in order or randomly, which is absolutely no order. So let's go back to those definitions. The obviously the sequential person finds natural order logical. There's an a, there's a B, there's a C, there's a one, there's a two, there's a three. And in fact of violate that is rock in the universe. You know what I mean? This person is tight ship. Yup. The random person is actually so confined by that. The random person doesn't operate well because a random person, they're just, they're just all over the place and it's like they're going to go with what feels right next.                         Not what's logical at all. So it's a collision of views and handling. So what I have in my, what I've derived with Mary and Martha from the new Testament is that I think that if you put a concrete sequential together, those are all the thinkers of this world. I think that's Martha. I just think that's her. And they would be very task oriented. And then if you were to put together the abstract as well as the random, well you got a hot mess and that's pretty much married. All right. Those are just what I derived from these sisters from what we can get. And you know, I haven't met them, but I can't wait to get to him and to meet him. But I think that that's what they are. And so again, Anthony Grigorik has defined those four and now some people, there's a few random people that crisscross on the seventh those.                         But I'd say most people, if they're concrete, they're also sequential. And most people, if they're abstract, they're also reading them. So really talking left brain, right brain, you're talking about free spirits versus, right. The non, which we need both in the world. Oh, absolution. Yeah, in a nutshell, we'll just call them thinkers and feelers. That's an easier way to look at it. And everybody thinks everybody feels but to different degrees. So let's just generalize thinkers, feelers. So now that I've said all that, let's go back to Martha. Okay. As a thinker, that means she's very task oriented and Oh my goodness, I know this Martha. Well, this is my story of Martin. I know this. Martha will because my mother is a Martha extraordinary, my sisters and Martha, my first born is a Martha. My husband has marked the qualities in that. There's a lot of things that are very precise.                         So, let me give it away now I am so not that, okay, I'm going to be a Mary, let me give to us now. I'm a Mary all the way through. So that means my entire life I have been surrounded by Martha's and in comparison, they're the efficient people. They're the logical people, they're the people that you want to get a job done, you give it to them kind of people. And you know, I can't measure up. I mean at least that's kind of how I feel. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, like I've been, you know, like, so that's been my problem. I've been like kind of surrounded by that. And some other examples of that is I'm like, let's go back to my mother again. She was a great mother and how she like took care of us because she liked to clean, she liked to cook and she's well organized in the pantry with Stockton.                         But it meant that if it was time for dinner, it's time for dinner. It doesn't matter how pretty it is outside, if you want to ride bikes no sooner now kind of a person. And she wanted things done a certain way. So all of say I was very cared for, loved by what my mother did for us as her gift is, she is a servant through and through, never complaining. Right. Okay. So that's all like beautiful. But I'm not any of those things. So let me ask you a quick question that about her. Did she, you said she was a servant through and through. Did she have more of a servant, hospitable heart or did she do those things because it was the, the thing that needed to be done? Both. Both. Okay. Both. I would say both. Yeah. Because it was with joy.                         She did those things. So she had met Mary and her two. Oh yeah. Because, sure. Yeah. Strongly loved us and all that, but it was going to express itself through Martha and Scott. You know what I'm saying? Okay. That's just the right thing to do. Okay. So let me now transition to the Mary yes. Definition and the Mary personality by what I've just described. I think Mary's on the opposite end of this spectrum. I think she's abstract and random. And so what that looks like is that she's very driven by feelings to a fault. They are the higher calling and C, Martha, the higher calling is getting the job done. She's a thinker for Mary. The higher calling is really paying attention to her heart. It just is. It's the higher calling. And so Mary can put feelings above a task. That doesn't mean she's a loser.                         He's not lazy, but she can rank things differently. Sure. She's a free spirit and she's all over the place. She runs late. Forget a planner. I mean, I'm notoriously late. Truthfully, she's really not the most responsible woman. She's not the person you want to pile on too much responsibility cause it really just may not get done right. But it's really like okay with her, which is what Martha can never understand. Like mothers just doesn't understand that, you know? So in contrast how I said my mother very much love just by what she did for us. And that's just true. I really don't have a servant heart. I hate to admit it now. I love people. I'm a people person, but like I don't love people by what I do for them. I love people by the experience I'm going to have with them. Okay. It's just a little bit different because in my mind, I guess I'm like, well, you can get the ketchup.                         I mean, I just don't write about my chair where my mother would because I don't know what that's like an act of love for her. And I'm like, but, but because I'm, there's so much abstract as in so much feeling, everything's in tangible, but my values are love, joy, beauty, peace. That means what I'm going to do is I'm going to pray with you. I'm going to invest time with you. I may counsel you, I write, I'm going to journal, I'm going to ride bikes at sunset. And let dinner get cold. I mean I'm going to be spontaneous. Yep. It goes on and on, whereas, you know, like spontaneity and my mom like those just whatever, which by the way, I haven't permission to completely give her as an example because she's so smart that ever. And we have done one of these sessions together and the little quiz I have coming is all based on my mom and she totally loved this.                         So, I'm not picking on my mom because she knows absolutely how much I love her. And let me say those too. We've both grown a little as we've aged, I probably become more of a Mart than she's probably become more of a mirror in that sweet. I mean, you know, cause we all have, we all have some of this, but anyway I guess so being a Mary and eventually we'll get to homeschool with it, but it meant clearly I'm a softy mom who's going to struggle with boundaries. I'm going to struggle with, you know discipline. I'm going to struggle with rules because inside I don't like any of that. Right. routine and schedule actually just SAPs the life out of me. It stifles me. I want freedom. I want creativity. I want, yeah, I'm, I'm all that. And so, where Mark, that's going to get the job done.                         So, can you just imagine them in homeschool, right? I mean, you've got two very different homes. So anyway, I think you need to go to your little sponsor thing. Yes. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. So let's bring it back to homeschooling. And how does, how does being a Mary or a Martha relate to us as homeschool moms? Okay. Now again, I know I'm generalizing a little bit here. Give me some grace on that, but I could give you just four little snapshots. I think of what this means. A Martha looks like as a homeschool mom. All right, so you're ready? So I would say number one, this is the gal with lesson plans. Premade. Okay. And advanced. She's the pantry. Field trips. She can handle them. She's the co-op leader. And she should be like, this is the woman again.                         She's going to get it done. Yep. I would also say she might follow the classical model of education because we all know it's the hardest, takes a lot of preparation. I would say she again can run that homeschool co-op very well. And in my imagination, because I don't know, I'm not one, but I would imagine her homeschool is lined with filing cabinets and there's a place for everything. Yes. So we're at a timeline on her wall. Oh yeah. Yeah. It actually on the wall. Now in contrast, if we dropped Mary in to a homeschool world, and maybe this is just me, but she doesn't handle the lesson plans. She runs late for the field trips when you're as a field trip coordinator. And it was a mistake because it's like I had to make all the phone calls and didn't go very well.                         I liked them because I liked the adventure and spontaneity, but I need somebody else to organize it. Right. I would also say she's more inclined to follow an unschooling or eclectic approach because for one, she buys everything. She's feelings oriented. Right. So she can't make a decision. Right. You can't just pick one. Right. And she's all over the place. Let's see. I would also say you really don't want her in charge of your homeschool co-op, but you want her there on the committee to welcome the new people. Yeah, she's going to pray and counsel and share and love on them. That will come very natural to her. But you know, running the meetings, I don't know. And then last I would say her classroom is lined with artwork that she intends to frame one day, but you know, it's never going to happen.                         You know how hard it is to frame those little things, the momentum that you think you're going to frame. So I just have a little tip, Mary low. So if you're hanging up with one piece of scotch tape, you know what happens in time is those tops curl and then that little piece of artwork is curly. So just give up the idea that you're going to hang it in a frame because you're not, neither are you going to scrap bark, but hang it with two pieces of tape and don't last a lot longer. [inaudible] You're great. And then one day they all, yeah, to put the day that was, that was free Yvette:             So, okay, so in regards to actually homeschooling and figuring out who we are, you have a quiz? Linda:               Actually, why don't I give you the quiz. Okay. And let's see. I haven't heard these questions yet. I know I'm springing them on you. Just raw. I have to write this down. You do? Okay. So for your listeners, all of explain what I'm doing, I basically, I have 20 questions. Okay. So I'll try to go through them fast. Okay. 20 questions and really you either give yourself a minus one or a plus one depending on what I dropped down one through 20 [inaudible] cast right now. Yes. That might good. Helpful paper. Yeah, in Mary. Okay. Paper. You've got to go find paper and you're going to need to double space this. Just a quick one through 20 and if you're with a friend named Martha, she has a pen and paper for you. Now, you know, Mary actually didn't make it on time to the podcast even, you know she's not here.                         She's getting the, yeah, she's watching it later. Okay. Listening later, one through 20 I'll, I'll run through these quick and you're going to go minus one or plus one and then we're going to add them up at the end. And then we will, I have a scale that'll show you like where you lean. Okay. And by the way, this one are plus one minus ones or plus one. So you either get negatives or positives. Okay? By the way, if you wind up with a zero, you're like the perfect person. You're right in between the [inaudible] enjoying math. Am I going to have to add these at the end? You will. I use my calculator if you need to, but you know. Okay, so number one, okay. If more often than not, your library books are overdue. Give your cell phone minus one. Because what that means is that you probably am married.                         So, see Mary gets got minus ones. Okay? So that's it. Now. By the way, I'm notorious for being late at the library books. It doesn't matter how many times I write it down on the calendar, I just can't do it. And of course as homeschools, we take them by the basket, right? And so I always, I just, one's going to get lost under the couch. I just decided it was a handling fee and just paid them some. Okay. Number two, if you have ever menu planned for a month or have several meals in the freezer, give yourself a plus one because that's a Martha. So do I get it for myself? A zero self-esteem never happened. Yeah. If you have never menu plan for a month and you don't have meals in the freezer, if you don't, just put a zero. But if you have that, give yourself a plus.                         No one, Nope, never done that. Okay. Number three, if your family assumes you'll run late or you relate to this workshop, cause I usually do this in a workshop, give yourself a minus one the family just knows you'll be like minus one always late. Okay? Number four. If your shirts or shoes are organized by color, give yourself a plus one. See, I'm describing my mom. Everything's color coded in her closet. There's no way that's happening in my closet. Okay. Number. Let's see. Number five, if you're a curriculum junkie, because it's so hard to sell the old stuff, you get a minus one. So your curriculum junkie, you can't part with it cause you know how hard it is to sell curriculum on the internet. Oh my gosh. You have to [inaudible] numbers. That's a minus one. You can't do it. I got ya. Yeah. Number six, if you're in extreme coupon or, or at least close to it, you get a plus one.                         That's the thing with those coupons. I have time for that. I've decided coupons. I mean, why did they want to pay me for cutting out little pieces of paper? I just really don't understand that. I just go with, there's a tag and it's yellow, then it costs less and I buy three coupons. I throw them away. I can't do it. I like your logic. I can't do it. It's can I? Oh I know. Yeah. And I know some gals who beat me up for that. But you're good at it. They're gifted and they should do it, but like I'm not cause they're Martha's given it up. Right. Number seven if you're to do list is on the, on the back of your hand or on an envelope or on a receipt, you get a minus. Wow. Okay. Confession. Friends. I had to really work hard to give her this piece of paper.                         She's at my house and I had a hard time finding it. Aren't you glad I didn't give you an envelope writing this on my arm? I'd have to, by the way, I don't know where many Martha's who write on the back of their hands, but this is a Mary thing and I sometimes wish Sharpie. I put an important note right there. Oh yeah. No, I don't. You know, I'm pretty certain I'm a Mary, but I do not write on my hands. Okay. I don't like my hands to be dirty. Oh, okay. Well that's, that's bothersome to me. That's funny. All right. Number nine, if you scribe [inaudible] as one, we're on eight. Oh, don't listen to my numbers cause I've moved some things around. Okay. Okay. Next. If you cry spontaneously to love songs on the radio or to hymns at church, give yourself a minus one. Yvette:             Oh no, I don't. That's why you don't cry. I am not a crier. Oh my goodness. Linda:               Okay. Number 10 if you buy in bulk, but you work out of labeled containers that are just the right size for your cabinets or cupboards, you get a plus one. Oh. So if you're that lady, you know, you go to Costco, you buy in bulk, and then you have a place for it at home and smaller individual, not me. Okay. But that's my mom numb. Next. If you often start school in your pajamas and you do family read-alouds from your bed, which is unmade, well you get a minus one. There's just nothing like Charlotte's Web in the sheets. Right, right from the sheets.                         I love read-alouds in the bed yet unmade. And that was the, that was [inaudible] doesn't mind this one because I time everything. Got it. Next, if you organize small parties or meetings on an Excel spreadsheet, you get a plus one. I think that Martha and Excel go well together. Huh? Here's the next one. If you save the baby teeth of your children, give yourself a minus. What does a pregnancy test count? Because the [inaudible] I have saved my pregnancy. Is that disgusting? I shouldn't admit that on kids baby teeth. It's over time break apart, but I have them. I can tell you where they are in these little containers in my bedroom. Here's, here's my theory. I feel like, listen, those baby teeth are like metals of honor because you know how hard it was for them to get those towels. That's how you feel about the pregnancy test.                         11 stinking years! It took me to get as and or pregnancy tests. Why you can't, I had many, many negative ones, so yeah, after that many years to get a positive one, you keep it still in a Ziploc. At least put it in a Ziploc. It's fine. She washed them off. But yeah, these babies, he's like, we should make jewelry or something. [inaudible] That baby in the middle of the night. We were cutting those tapes together, making back lists out of my pregnancy test, I promise. Okay. That would be gross. Oh wait, where were we? Is that the minus one? And you're getting one for having a pregnancy test or I'll have to change my desk. Okay. Okay. we just got a few more. If you had a shopping list for a homeschool convention before you went [inaudible], you get a plus one, or maybe you just know what you're going to, you know, next year. Linda:               If you pray often for God's mercy because of mistakes that you've made, you get a minus one. Say again, I think, by the way, let me answer it. This little thing about Mary, you know, sometimes I think when pastors talk about Mary and Martha and they talk about Mary at the feet of Jesus, I think they make her out to be this very saintly, Holy woman. And I'm like, you know, Martha was the faithful one who's not going to break the rules and get into Mischief. But Mary, I don't think she was at Jesus's feet cause she was so wholly, my personal theory is I think she was a very broken woman with a lot of sin in her life who was at his feet out of pure worship and need, and so again, if you're the woman praying for God's mercy a lot, because you really, you know, you don't, you don't keep healthy boundaries easily.                         You, you do make mistakes. Big ones. I think that's a Mary thing. Okay. Anyway, I just think that's a misunderstanding of her. It is speed. It's not good. She likes this flow. Right, right, right. It's more like, Oh yeah, she needs Jesus. She needs Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Next, on a much lighter note, if you set up the coffee pot or tea before you go to bed at night, you get up plus one. When I go home to see my mother, this always happens. She'll be like, Hey honey, so do you want to set the coffee up tonight? I'm like, why would I do today what I can do tomorrow? She though would set her teapot up at night before she goes to bed. So then in the morning she just has turned it on, like just got a little cups go, we'll take it.                         And I never, I don't do that. No I don't do that. My oldest daughter who I told you is a Martha really? And that's because she started making her own lesson plans in fifth grade. That's when I figured that out. Why we're making them. She started making her own. I'm like, Oh you need more structure. Yeah. So anyway, she told me to like a week ago, I kid you not. She's like, Oh by the way, cause he just got this new workout routine and she's like, I'm just making the coffee like at night, but not turning it on. But I have it already and I just bust it out loud. I'm like, you are a Martha, like as you're doing it at night before you go to bed, which a great idea, but I'm just not in my universe. It's not going to happen. Okay. Sorry I do today.                         What you could put off till tomorrow. That's kind of, and I think this is, Oh no. Okay, hold on. Almost there. If you unpack the same day that you get home from a trip, I think you get a plus one because the end of a trip, no, I'm going to unpack my hair products. Right. My toothbrush and that was about it. The rest is going to sit for a couple of days. Just beat. I can't do that now. But Martha is in the, it is sorted. It is, yeah. My husband impacts the day he gets home. I mean it's put away if one lunch this week was a happy and granola bar that you found in the bottom of your purse, you'd get a minus one because he, again, Mary's, I'm thinking of time. Time is a tangible thing and she's into intangibles. That's why she runs late. She doesn't manage time well.                         So, she forgot she was leaving to run an errand right near noon when she should be hungry or you know, it's not on her radar. Right. So lunch is the granola bar. Yeah, bottom of the purse. If you offer your house, gets a hot breakfast, you get a plus one. I think that's kind of a Mark the thing now friends, she spent the night with me last night and she got boiled eggs this morning. But I don't know if that counts. You didn't get like paying the whole [inaudible]. I think it counts. They were delicious. But I gave you like a buffet. Yes it was fantastic. But Martha could do more than that. It was pretty, it wasn't, you know what? And by the way, some people listen to me giving this and they just kind of assume like maybe I'm just a disaster like around my house and stuff because they know claiming to be like a Mary who's a little bit, all this storehouse is very [inaudible] and comfortable.                         Well, I'll tell you why I figured that out. Mary is inspired by beauty to the point that she might keep it kind of tidy. Well, don't go look in my drawers event, right? Because there'll be real messy on the inside. But on the outside is kept kind of pretty because that does motivate me. I need that. So my space is, you know, kind of together. Yes. But that's different from, you know, they're different. So anyway. Okay. We're getting closer. Spontaneous field trips that count for school. You get a minus one, right. Can I go on field trip 10 on that one? You know, like, Hey look, there's a Caterpillar Digger next door. Yes. Dig it up, whatever. Let's count that. We travel full time almost. I mean right now full time, the other day we were driving through Texas and we came across Cadillac ranch, which I had never heard of before.                         And it's this random place in the middle of the desert where this artist, he, he buried a bunch of Cadillacs in the ground. Like they're like standing halfway up like Stonehenge kind of. Yes. Kind of get a storm. I got a point. Yes. And then it gets better because people take spray paint cans out there and you can spray paint on the Cadillacs. They've been there for like 40 something years. I'm from Texas and I don't know about Cadillac. One part of Texas. Where is this? Oh, I don't know. Panhandle. Oh no, but I don't know. Okay. Texas is huge. It is huge. So it's, I could have missed it somewhere in Texas. That's a great, it's on route 66 I can tell you that much. I couldn't tell you the town. But it's fascinating. And so there, I mean it does. Are we doing here that tourist field trips, spontaneous, spontaneous field trips and so we drove by it and we both were like stop the car. We have to go to Cadillac ranch and start. It's an, and it was amazing and our girls had a great time cause they got to spray paint cars cause who gets to do that? And that's fun. That's neat. Anyway, continue on. I'm sorry, we've got one more. Can you tell you got two Mary's here. So I tried. Okay. And you said I had one more. Okay. You're carrying a planner right now. Give yourself plus one cause you're sitting right here at my kitchen table. But normally I'm often Yvette:             Doing this at a convention and so if they have a planner on them, they get a point. So, okay, let's does a phone count as a planner? Well you've got a phone nearby. I always have my phone. You all near me and I always have my planner on my phone. I can't tell if your planner is on your phone then. Okay, so this is a plus one. You got a plus one plus one. Okay. Yes. Oh my. Okay. So now I need to yes, you add that up too quick and I'm going to give you a scale. We'll find out what you are, our listeners, I hope you'll be doing the same. And then based on your results, we have a couple of closing remarks. Okay.                         So, I have negative four. Oh, okay. Oh, you said Oh you want to meet. Okay. So here's how it goes with the points. So if you are M minus 10 to a minus four. Okay. Really are a married, I am married [inaudible] but you're a low scoring married. Okay. Which means I hear a little bit of Martha too, right? Yeah, yeah. Or it's balanced cause like a minus 10 is the, so you're saying I balanced is what you're really saying. Well, hold on. I want to show you, see if you're a minus three, two a plus three Oh really? A Mary Martha mix. Okay. Very healthy. So you're real close to that. Okay. Yeah. So you have some tendencies. Okay, you're close, but you, you are. Okay. Now if you scored a plus forward to a plus 10 I think you really are a Martha. Oh no.                         Yeah. And that's not what you scored. So like I literally would score minus 10 on this. Okay. Oh and my mother was four plus 10 wow. Okay. Like we are the very opposites. Every everybody saying is a true story here on my little, which is incredible because when we look at our children and how we educate our kids, and I love that you said with your daughter you realized and for fifth grade that she was a Martha. It's very helpful to understand our children's personalities, especially if they differ from our own. And, and that helps us to educate them better at home because if we don't understand them and how they think and how they respond to life, if you have a, if you're a Mary and you have a Martha for each child and you're trying to homeschool them and a Merry world, it will frustrate them.                         But, and also the flippy disciple. And if you, if you're a Martha and you're trying to educate your Mary child, you're making a cry, you're going to make them cry and you're going to fight with them and battle with them. And it's going to be a constant, the battle between the two of you. So what's the answer? How and a new way to celebrate this in what I would say is, first of all, I encourage, if you're a Martha, embrace that and always be a Martha. God has given you gifts and talents. Go change the world and use them. And if you're a Mary, do the same. Embrace your Mary cause God gave you, and maybe you're an impasse, maybe you're feelings driven. And maybe that means life isn't always pristine and it can get messy. Sometimes it does and a lot of drama can follow Mary. Sure. However, if that's how you're designed, embrace Linda:               It and think about who Jesus said would be remembered in eternity at the same time that gospel would be preached. He was referring to Mary's extravagant act of worship. The woman who is again appears to be a broken woman who truly loves him out of the deep need. And so it's like if that's you, then just wear it and love it and let Jesus just be worshiped. Mean. She wiped his feet with her tears and yes, I could cry about right now thinking about that because that moves me so much like I'm trying to imagine if I could see Jesus and how I would so want to fall before he sure did he ever saved me. I mean, I am a broken woman. I am. I have made a lot of mistakes in my life and I've been redeemed. The gospel is good news. It is good news that Jesus saves.                         And so, like Mary just hold onto that and take a ride with that. And you're not going to get this homeschooling all done well, right? You're just not farmed out what you can. As a matter of fact, I have 10 tips for all marries who are listening and we can do that as a bonus time. Okay. But just in closing, for those who you know, need to cut it whichever you are, embrace it. Because Jesus loved Mary and Martha and Lazarus and what great plans he had even in their crisis. Yes. And isn't that assuring that there's always plans, there's God's plans, you be a Lazarus dies and they're still a good plan that Jesus has out of that. So anyway, I just wanted to say that, but homeschooling, I think it's a Martha world. It's heavy and Nat [inaudible] sufficient. And so I had felt over the years, you know, like some that I just didn't measure up.                         I mean, I didn't go to bed feeling very successful all the time. And as a homeschool mom and I had to adjust to my kids to get back to them. My kids were all far more structured than me. Yeah. I was the most free spirit of the family, so I had to step up. I needed to adapt and sometimes I just had to step up and that's what I will share as a couple of quick tips I have for Mary for the married life, and I love that about you because now your children are all grown, they're all married, you've got grandkids, and so I love that. I can look at women like you who have been there especially who have been Ameri and you felt like you were messing it up because we talk about that a lot. We talked about that in the movie.                         We talk about that on the podcast. I just had dinner with a couple of friends the other night and we all were talking about how we just feel like we're just messing it all up. I said, you know, it's so funny because oftentimes people will come to me and asked me questions about homeschooling and I can give them every reason why they should homeschool, but don't ask me how to homeschool because I feel I'm, I'm a Mary and I definitely always feel inadequate. I always feel like I'm messing it up and, and God continues to show me over and over again that he's doing it. Now he's using me and I still, like you said, I still have to be diligent. I can't just throw up my hands and say, Oh well God's going to do everything to be done. But at the same time, God's to fill in the gaps Yvette:             And there are always going to be gaps. But it's so encouraging to me to talk to a mom like you who's been there and now we can see the results of what your children have, have turned out to, you know, they are productive adults who love Jesus and that's what it's all about. Yeah. I still think we could call ourselves a successful homeschool family. And I have one last word. Some people may be listening going, and she's the one that wrote The Mystery of History. And in case that shakes your confidence in me because like you're writing behind the scenes that I'm not an altogether woman. Well, that's because God, to God be the glory. Amen. I ever authored the minister of history, but you know what ins, what drove those words? It was my feelings. SOC like I didn't pick a Martha to write and he picked a Mary.                         That's wrong. Because I think that history handled through some emotion and feeling we better see his hand in it. So anyway, that's where the passion comes from. And so, but it was hard and you can see that and how hard it was for me to do this. God, were you sure? Yes. He was like, I got this. You know, because for what? It's about him, right? I didn't invent these stories. They're nice stories and say any way he was able to use something that the world might call weak, right? Oh, to shine on him. But he has used you in an amazing way. And we were just talking about this at dinner tonight. And I was saying the thing I love most about the ministry of history is that it's easy for me as a homeschool mom to be able to use that curriculum because really I feel like I'm just kind of talking through it and having a conversation with my kids about it instead of it being so rigid textbook because I'm a Mary, I am not a rigid textbook kind of girl.                         Drives me nuts. And for some, you know, for the Martha's out there, they love that. And that works for them though the ministry of history is shine it. Yes, there's plenty of structure in it and there are, I mean, you can take it in several different directions as far as how deep you want to go with it. But for me it's great because I can see your emotion in it. I can see you didn't just take the facts and write them on a page. You, you brought meaning and feeling into it. Yes. And I love that about it. So, and it's all from a Biblical perspective, which that's what it's all about for us. So really quickly let me ask you, you've got the quiz is this, we do of course show notes that people can refer to on the podcast. Do you have that quiz handy that I can, we can send to people?                         Well, the best way probably did get that. It would be if your listeners wanted to get hold of the workshop, I had this workshop recorded in full and then they can get a little bit more and the quizzes are part of that and they can stop and start and take that. So yes, we can make sure that you're listing okay. To special coupon code. We'll put that in the notes. Okay. Okay. So we'll put a coupon code in the notes and give them access to that and then you can give them the final results of whether they're married or Martha or a Mary Martha. Yes. That scale will be a part of that is great. We are going to stop with the podcast, but for our backstage pass members, we're going to continue on. And you're going to talk about 10 tips. 10 quick tips for those of us who are married Mary homeschool mom doesn't need to hear this because she already knows what she's doing. She's a pretty natural at this. This is the struggle in Mary and there just a few little things I did. I mean these aren't like, this isn't rocket science. You just a few little [inaudible].                         Okay, so we'll continue on with that for backstage pass members. If you're not a backstage pass member yet, definitely go on the schoolhouse rock website, go to backstage pass member and then you can learn more about what that is, and you have access to all kinds of amazing videos and content and stuff. Linda:               And please subscribe to my website too - TheMysteryofHistory.com. Yvette:             And send Linda really kind emails and tell her how wonderful she has because I know that “Marys” need to hear those things. “Marys” have feelings and sometimes I think people I know we're way over time, but that's okay. I know sometimes people, they'll see your name on a book. You know, this lady Linda Lacour Hobar wrote The Mystery of History and, and you become a, almost a character to them instead of a real person.                         And it's been so neat to just get to know you over the last couple of days and though we've met before, but being in someone's home is completely different. And so, you know, we've, we've lived with you for the last couple of days. I've gotten to know your girls and that's a life changer for me because it's all about those. They are, when I get to meet the kids, that's the best class I write for them. Yep. Your girls are precious. Well and they love you and they were excited to hear your voice and attach me to the life. Yes, yes. Cause we listened to your audio. But thank you for what you are doing for the homeschool community and for all that God is doing through you. It's all for his glory. So thank you backstage. Mass members continue on with the video. It will be available in backstage past and we'll talk about 10 tips for us marries. And in the meantime, you guys have a great week. Thank you for listening today and we will see you back here next week. Bye.  

  Let's Talk about Having a Healthier Life... We end our series on self-help & motivation this week with our final episode of the month of July. This week we are blessed to have Dr. Donna Hamilton on the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. Dr. Donna is a 4-time best-selling author, speaker, workplace well-being strategist and CEO of Manifest Excellence, LLC, a health promotion company that helps CEOs create happy, healthy, productive workplaces where that make it easier for people to do the job they're hired to do. Dr. Donna took the time out to teach us how to create a happier & healthier lifestyle. She starts by teaching us what it really means to be healthy, talked about some of her personal struggles with health and what were 5 key areas that seem to keep a lot of people down in the pursuit of optimal health. This is another episode where you are going to be learning a lot about yourself & hopefully will know what tools you have been missing. If you haven't already check out episode 118 to learn how Dr. Brad helps us eliminate all excuses & face the fear of failure head-on. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the episode with a friend or family member. Listen on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, iHeartRadio, Spotify Sponsors: Lunch and Learn Community Online Store (code Empower10) Pierre Medical Consulting (If you are looking to expand your social reach and make your process automated then Pierre Medical Consulting is for you) Dr. Pierre's Resources - These are some of the tools I use to become successful using social media My Amazon Store - Check out all of the book recommendations you heard in the episode Links/Resources: Complimentary self-care guide www.WellnessYourWayBook.com www.manifestexcellence.com Social Links: Join the lunch and learn community – https://www.drberrypierre.com/joinlunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on Facebook – http://www.facebook.com/lunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on twitter – http://www.twitter.com/lunchlearnpod – use the hashtag #LunchLearnPod if you have any questions, comments or requests for the podcast For More Episodes of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry Podcasts https://www.drberrypierre.com/lunchlearnpodcast/ If you are looking to help the show out Leave a Five Star Review on Apple Podcast because your ratings and reviews are what is going to make this show so much better Share a screenshot of the podcast episode on all of your favorite social media outlets & tag me or add the hashtag.#lunchlearnpod Download Episode 113 Transcript Episode 119 Transcript... Introduction Dr. Berry: And welcome to another episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. I'm your host, Dr. Berry Pierre, your favorite Board Certified Internist. Founder of Drberrypierre.com as well as a CEO of Pierre Medical Consulting. Helping you Empower Yourself For Better HealthTM, with the number one podcast for patient advocacy, education and empowerment. Today we bring you another amazing episode with Dr. Donna Hamilton, who is going to be getting us right in the mindset of health and how to stay healthy and really how to get healthy. And this is really purely, truly, especially from a mindset standpoint because if you've been following along, we've talked about, we've had a series of episodes this month where we really wanted to focus on how our mindset plays such a huge factor in keeping us healthy. I started them off with the self-reflection. Then we had Dr. Michelle Clay talked to us about stress and stress relief. Then we had Dr. Brad pretty much kinda knock it out the park talking to us about how we don't have any more excuses and how we need to reach in actually attain our goals and get failure out the way. So that was definitely one of the highlights of this month. And we're going to end it with Dr. Donna Hamilton. And of course like always I would like to, you know, do a little quick little bio. So y'all know all these amazing people I have on here. She's a four time bestselling author, speaker. She's a workplace wellbeing strategist and CEO of Manifest Excellence, which is a health promotion company to help CEOs create happy, healthy, productive workplaces that make easier for people to actually do the jobs that they're hired to do. Right? Which makes sense. She offers services to help driven professionals get unstuck and become unstoppable. Her consulting courses, coaching, trainings and books use holistic and trauma-informed strategy to help their clients decrease stress, improve mindset, strengthen resilience, and increase productivity. So again, that makes sense. Right? It makes sense that I would kind of end this series with someone who kind of wraps everything we talked about for the month, in like a boat. Right? And for everyone who has been following along. Who’s been given such amazing support, thank you for all you doing. You know, kind of keeping up with me. Like I said, this is National Minority Health Month, right? But again, when we talk about Minority Health Month, this is something that I want you to be talking about it in August and November, back in June. I want this to be a 24/7 or deal, making sure where our mindset is correct. Because again, your blood pressure isn't gonna go down if your mindset isn't there or a cholesterol isn't going to go down, your weight isn't going to go down. All of these things: your stress, your anxiety, all these things aren't gonna work unless we include the mindset aspect of it. So definitely thankful for having Dr. Donna on to kind of help educate us on just really staying healthy in general. And then you guys are in for amazing treat like always. If you have not had a chance, go ahead, subscribe to the podcast,l leave a five star review and tell a friend to tell a friend. Like that's the most amazing thing about you guys is that you actually are doing that, right? So we're getting more and more of viewership. More and more listeners to the show as we move on from week to week. So definitely thankful for all you guys support. You guys have a great and blessed day. Episode Dr. Berry: Alright, Lunch and Learn community. You heard another amazing introduction to personal friend of mine. But a person who I've been following along for about three plus years now. Some give or take and all we've been talking about, self-care, self-reflection, getting in the right mental mindset to get healthy. I figured, there was no way to really end this month without having this special guests on, right? So Dr. Donna please, first of all, thank you for joining the Lunch and Learn community today. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Thank you so much for having me and thank you for having this topic. It's one of my favorite topics. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Dr. Berry: So Dr. Donna unfortunately I got a lot of folks in my Lunch and Learn community who loved to like skip my intro. I don't know why they like skipping the intro. I guess they don't like hearing the music and that's okay. Right? Because I always give my guests another opportunity to kind of say like who they are. Maybe something that you know is not necessarily in the bio but just so a person who's just listening maybe for the first time and say well, who is Dr. Donna and why does Dr. Pierre love her so much. Dr. Donna Hamilton: I get it because truth be told, I'm one of those people who tends to skip. I'm like, let's get it and at the same time context is everything. So hi! Lunch and Learn community and listeners. I am Dr. Donna. I started my career as a board certified community pediatrician and I transitioned into a workplace well-being strategist. So now I do two things. With my company Manifest Excellence, we help CEOs create happy, healthy, productive work families and make it easier for people to do the job that they've been hired to do. We offer courses, coaching and consulting. We also have services direct to individuals. So some people say that's great, but I need to do something outside of work. I also help super achievers who usually are kind of able to push through everything. We help them when they hit the wall. And so we helped them create their own personal plans that they can give back in their group and start to function at their best in mind, body, spirit in life. Dr. Berry: Perfect. And you know that again, I think that's definitely an amazing segue, right? Especially when we talk about the topic of health. And this is how I think I have to ask just a basic question. Right? And again, it almost sounds silly, but understanding, I'm a physician, right? So they may come second nature, but to someone else who is really trying to turn that corner and whatever that health goal is, right? Trying to obtain that. Why is being healthy really so important? Why is that such a big thing for us? Dr. Donna Hamilton: Yeah, that's a great question. I agree. Some people may say it's simple or silly, but it's not, because we have to start at the beginning. And you and I were both our primary care doc. So we tend to think like, let's get the basics. And we know that we don't, not everyone focuses on health. The word health is a lot more than not to being sick. And sometimes when people say or hear the word health, what they really are thinking, at least for adults, remember my background is in pediatrics and so that is, I translate a lot of those sensibilities into adults now. A lot of people say healthy, what they really mean is not sick. The word health literally means whole. W. H. O. L. E. That's the root of the word. So I guess way back whenever we created the English language and someone chose the word, what they were describing was someone who was whole, W. H. O. L. E. They were functioning at their best in their entirety. That's what being healthy literally means. And that's why it's really important because you cannot be sick but still not be functioning well. Not feeling well physically, mentally or emotionally. Dr. Berry: I think it's extremely important, especially when you touch on the different aspects of it. Because I love that you did that because I think a lot of times the common knowledge is for, especially from a physician to really maybe focus on one aspect, right? Maybe just from a physical standpoint you look healthy but maybe we're not going to address those other aspects of it. How important do you feel making sure that not only the physical, the emotional, the mental, the well like all of that plays a factor in making sure we are completely healthy, which is obviously the whole? Dr. Donna Hamilton: That it's crucial. The way I described it to adults is, in pediatrics or if you were dealing with a child, whether it's your child or a family member or someone in the community. Intuitively we know this. So we wouldn't look at a child who is physically doing well and thriving, but they had behavior problems or they were depressed or they were acting up and acting out. We wouldn't say that child was well or healthy. We know that there was more to deal with it. If they were homeless, if they had social issues. We would know that something needed to be addressed. But for some reason, and I don't know what the age is so to speak. Somewhere expectations get lowered for adults. People say, well, you know what, I'm not overweight and I don't have any scary diagnoses and they ignore everything else and that doesn't ignore it, doesn't hit their radar. I'm still somewhat amazed when I have these discussions with people and I walk them through. Being healthy is really functioning at your best in mind, body, spirit and enlightening and they're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. So that's the essence of wellbeing. That's another, that's one of the reasons that you will see that. I still talk about health, but for my understanding, the way I'd use, I use health, wellness and wellbeing interchangeable because they all are trying to describe the same theme. Unfortunately the way we tend to be in our society, people like to try to streamline it. So people first started using the word wellness because folks stop using health to mean like in its entirety. So people start saying, I'm going to talk about wellness then. So people understand, I mean function at your best in every way. And then people started to use the word wellness to mean like nutrition and maybe fitness. But again, it’s part of wellness, but they kind of just, again, they got away from the sense of it means functioning in your best in every aspect. So now you'll see that a lot of people are talking about wellbeing and I'm hoping we get to it at wellbeing. You know what I mean, like we get it that people stop trying to streamline away this concept of functioning at your best in its entirety. Because like I said, we'd know what we wanted for our children. I don't know why for some reason for adults, people stop wanting it for themselves or for each other. Dr. Berry: Oh, that's a whole, okay. Alright. I love it. I love that point. Question. And of course I asked this as an internist who takes care of the 18 and up, how would you rate really our ability to even teach that message to others as far as just being overall healthy in the whole fear of it? Dr. Donna Hamilton: You know that depends on a lot of different paths. I think it depends on your specialty. I think it depends on your, you know, so whether it's pediatrics, whether it's Med, Peds, whether it's family medicine, whether it's internal medicine and you train thinking, I'm going to be a sub specialist or you did internal medicine thinking you're going to go into geriatrics. So I think it really depends on how you were trained, what you were trained in and in general what you bring to your job, which is like any other specialties like any other profession, it's what you bring to it. I would say in general, and it might be a little bias but also can be correct. I think in general, pediatricians are the best range because and I laugh but it's true, but it is part of how we are training, especially for General Ped and community pediatric, which is how I was trained, so we are truly trained in the bio psycho social model, like to really take a good history to make sure that we're assessing developmental. I mean if you think about it, part of the pediatric paradigm is medical home. That's become part of the adult medicine paradigm. But it literally was started in pediatrics in the 60s the idea that your doctor is your team leader and we're going to make sure that we're keeping touch. I'm keeping track of everything that you need in order to be healthy, but there's like you said, a lot of family medicine people, a lot of internists who do take care of adolescents and young adults, they tend to be focused in into more that what a wellness and preventive aspect. I'm hoping that as a society, understanding the importance of prevention. That more doctors will get better and have time connect the other piece you can be trained because we actually all are trained. Let's be honest, we all are trained in this. Then you get the specifics and the logistics of your job where depending on where you're employed and how, who's in charge of your schedule, you don't have time to practice good medicine. I mean, we know we got plenty of phenomenal of what they do and people don't give get enough time to take care of their patients. And I used to, when I retired my clinical practice. And that was one of the reasons it was very challenging to practice what I knew was best for my patients. And I used to talk at the administrators and the scheduling people and say a little tongue in cheek, but seriously, you know, patients don't know they're only supposed to have a 10 minute problem. Yeah. Patients gonna come in. Whether you schedule me for five minutes, 10 minutes, or the 30 minutes that I need to adequately address this issue, that's how much time it takes to look, to take care of the patient. Dr. Berry: I love it and it's very definitely interesting point that I didn't even know about as far as the medical centered home starting with children, which makes sense. But, and you're right, like in a primary care setting, that's definitely been this new model that's come around where they really are trying to encapture a patient's health care even when they leave the office, which sounds like why weren't you doing it before? But like that's definitely the movement that's happening. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Absolutely. And it's what we need. It's a win-win for everyone. Patients need that. Especially when we're not feeling well. When you're not feeling well or you have a family members not feeling well that you don't even have enough as much energy to coordinate and organize everything. You don't even know what you're supposed to do most of the time. I mean, you and I, we're fortunate we're physicians. We have friends who are physicians. Yeah, so we have a basic understanding of what's supposed to happen. But again, you know, you're not a pediatrician. I'm not an internist. So if I'm dealing with an adult medicine cardiac issue, I still maybe don't know all the things that are supposed to happen and what all the balls that need to be juggled so to speak. That's where your family home, your medical home comes in and most doctors who care about their patients, which is most of us, especially in primary care. (Shout out to primary care). By the way, to all the listeners out there, it's really important for you to have a primary care doctor, and I say this because you and I know a lot of people don't, especially people who tend to have more medical issues. Let's say it's a cardiac issue or it's a renal issues, kidney issues. They don't see that specialist a lot and they'll keep going there. Even women who are healthy, they'll tend to go to their gynecologist. I have a doctor who is gynecologist. Shout out to all the gynecologists we love you. They'll be the first to tell you that they are not primary care doctors. Their focus is on women's reproductive health. And so you need, and I really use the word need, but in this case I'm going to, well it's highly, highly recommended. Dr. Berry: Highly, highly recommend. Dr. Donna has stamped it here on the Lunch and Learn community. Go ahead. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Highly recommended, your medical and your self-care team. You have someone who is your primary care doctor who's not a specialist. So for adults that would be an internist or an internal medicine doctor or someone who is family medicine doctor. And for children that is a pediatrician. Yeah. They're also family medicine doctors who do take care of children. So it would be a pediatrician or family medicine doctor who takes care of infants, children and adolescence. I know you love track, but this is all important. Dr. Berry: All important. No, no, that's okay. That's the Lunch and Learn community is here to learn and listen. So they going to take everything we give them. (There you go). Now question. And when we talk about being healthy, right? And at the time we're recording this, I'm in an issue where I'm struggling with quote unquote being healthy. I actually, for those who followed me on Instagram, you know that I suffered an injury chasing after my son. Right? And now I am in the rehab process of a surgery that I recently had got done. And I see the mental changes that have happened just based off that. When we talk about just some of the struggles that are associated with just being healthy. What are some issues that you kind of run across, you seen in some of your patients on the time of time basis? I said like, wow. It seems like everybody seems to be dealing with the same related issues. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Oh, that's a lot. You know, I would, I'm gonna go to a core, something you touched on. Mindset is a really big piece. That's kind of a trendy word right now. The way I teach, we talk about mental, the mental arena, which is your thoughts, your beliefs, your expectations. So that mindset piece is a really big one. And that can shift if you're having a physical health challenge. And the mind and body are in constant communication, right? So you might actually be feeling good and tend to be more positive and with your expectations about life and your health. And then you ended up with a physical health challenge and then your mind starts to awfulize, right? And you're like, oh my gosh, what can happen, to cover or you just don't feel as good. So that's one of the common, common themes where people who are dealing with any type of health issue, it's that mindset piece and the, it really the expectation that they're going to be healthy, especially as they get older. And notice I didn't say old, it's older. So people in their twenties who start getting into this belief. You know that they're old, they're starting to fall apart and anything, anytime something goes wrong it's like, oh I'm getting older. And I look at was like on so many levels we have to stop that. First, because sometimes you're like half my age. But also there is a big connection between our expectations and our biology of belief. Which we can have a separate discussion about that. But a lot of times we start to focus on the negative and we still, we look for the negative instead of focusing on the expectation of being healthy or recovering or getting better. So those are some of the common pieces that I see. Again, it's a focus on illness instead of wellness and what we can do to feel better to get better. So whether instead of focusing on, okay, so how can I recover quickly so I can get back and do whatever. People are wondering, how long am I going sick? How long is this going to hurt? It's spoken on the negative instead of the positive expectancy. Does that make sense? Dr. Berry: It makes total sense and I love it because we had a recent guest, Dr Brad on here who kind of talked about how a lot of times we focus on the failure aspect instead of focusing on the goal and the win. So that makes complete sense, right? If we get sick and all they're doing, we're focusing on the sickness aspect of it and not the aspect of getting better, then it's going to take a long time to get better. I had decided that makes total sense. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Our brain and for people who are listening, I don't want you to beat up on yourself that this is your tendency. We're wired this from a neurologic perspective. We have what's called a negativity bias and there's a lot of reasons for that. The very short version, it's helped us survive. So if you are walking out in the street and I'm making it up, you want into a bear, I live in the Poconos so this actually can happen. You want to remember every aspect of what you know puts you in danger so that you don't do that. So that's our mind is wired to focus on these things. And so it does take some energy and effort to shift to start to focus on the positive. But it's a payoff because you might be improving and not even notice it. A good example is pain. When I was practicing and kids were a little bit different. Fortunately I didn't have any too many children who had chronic pain. But I did have some older adolescents who had some chronic illness. We would teach them to focus. If we gave them some pain medication. Instead of saying, well, how much does it hurt beforehand and how much that just hurt now? We would ask them to focus on the pain relief because it made them start to say focus. Although this is better because if not, people are still focusing on how much it hurts instead of is it feeling better. How much is it feeling better now? And you train yourself to focus on feeling better, getting better, you know? So in your case, for someone who's having a mobility issue, if you hurt on your leg or your foot, instead of focusing, I still can't fill in. I still can't walk without a limp. I still can't go up a flight of stairs. It's like, oh no, what? I walked across the room today before it started hurting. And the shifts start to help us focus on being better and being healthier and looking forward. Because our energy goes where our attention flows. So we see and we attract what it is we focus on. So let's focus on what we want instead of what we don't. Dr. Berry: Oh I love that. I love it. Dr. Donna, you've talked about a key arenas really affecting our health. What would you say they are? Like some of the key arenas really affecting our everyday health. Whether you're an adult and I know you deal with children but working with adults now. Dr. Donna Hamilton: So whether you're an adult or child, the key arenas are the same. There are five and I don't get caught up on the number because depending on who you listen to, they'll define them in different ways and they'll give them different needs. But the concept is that we are talking about every aspect of affecting your health and wellness. So for this conversation, I teach the people, I've worked with five arenas. The first is the physical. So that's what you would think. It's the body. It's what you put in your body, on your body, and anything that affects anything that's tangible. Those are all aspects of the physical arena in your life and your health. There's the mental arena, which we touched on earlier. Those are your thoughts and your beliefs, your inner voice. So you can see that for a lot of people, they may look good physically and their mental arena is off. And we're not talking about mentally ill. We're talking about people who are chronically critical of themselves and others beating up on themselves. They awfulize, you know, if you say can be done, they're the first to tell you 500 reasons why there's no way, why they're definitely gonna die. So that would not be a healthy mental. The next is the emotional arena. Those are your feelings, which is different than the mental arena. That's a very important distinction. The mental arena. It's about thoughts. Your thoughts and beliefs are not the same as your feelings. And many, many people don't like to play in the realm of feelings. So that emotions - happy, sad, fear. So that's the emotional area and you can see why many people like to avoid that because some of those feelings are uncomfortable. But that's an important part of being healthy, addressing your emotional arena. The next is the social arena and this is a big one and many people overlook it. Your social arena is what gives life variety and spice. So those are your habits, your hobbies, your money, your relationship, your job. So in medicine, for any positions who are listening, we talk about the bio psycho social. When we take a social history. For other listeners who aren't in medicine, that's why when you go to your primary care doctor, especially for first visit, they'll ask you what do you do? What do you do for a living? Are you married? Are you single? It's not just being nice and establishing a relationship though that's important too. This gives us a picture of all the aspects affecting your life. Because your job, your money, your, your habits. Whether you smoke, whether you text and drive. All of these affect your overall health and wellbeing. Your sleeping habits, all of these come under the social aspect of the social media. And the lesser arena is the spiritual arena. And that's not religion, but religion does fall under this. The spiritual arena is around on your purpose, your mission, what gives your life meaning and how you make sense of it. That's also very, very important. Not only from quality of life because you can have everything looking good in those other boxes. So you're physically healthy mentally, emotionally. You got a job that you love and healthy relationships, with money. And you're still feeling like your life has no meaning or purpose. And so remember we said being healthy, as functioning in your best in every aspect. If you're walking around feeling like your life has no meaning or purpose, you're not really living your best life. You're not functioning at your best. That's why that spiritual arena is really important. It also becomes very important if you end up getting physically ill. Because if you're unconscious or unspoken belief is, nah, doesn't really matter and your doctor is saying come on, you've got to get your blood pressure under control. I don't know what's going on. If you don't get this under control, you're going to have a stroke. You could die. And if you're really trying to like, oh well and you're not depressed. I'm making a distinction to people are depressed. But people will really kind of have this existential. Oh well if I live, live and I don't, that's fine. You're not going to be motivated to take stuff better. So all the arenas are connected. And so with my coaching clients, many times I will tell people, if you're stuck trying to make progress in one area, you would benefit from starting with another arena. So for a health thing, if you have tried six ways from Sunday to lose weight and it's not working, many times we find success when we start in another arena and start addressing that arena first. Dr. Berry: Oh I love it. And Lunch and Learn community, I tell you every time, I think I say it's a week now, every week. I selfishly learn just as much from the guests as you guys may be learning as you're listening to this right now. So I'm definitely intrigued and remember, we do show notes so you don't have to like write anything down. You will get a chance to kind of have everything kind of written in a nice little pdf format so you can get those five key arenas. And I think Dr. Donna touched on it very well that you could be doing great in three of them, right? But those other two could be the reason why you can't lose weight. The other two could be the reason why your blood pressure isn't going down. The reason why, you know, you're not having good communication in your relationship. But also so I definitely love the fact that, you know, they really are together and again, we're not trying to prioritize one or the other. We're just trying to say, yeah, you got five that really can affect it one way. Thank you Dr. Donna for that aspect. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Yeah, they're all related. And like I tell people because we do workplace wellbeing, I see that a lot. So here's another way that's common. When you ask what are some things that we see are common, very, very common. So people will be stressed at their job for fill in the blank reasons. Not enough money, too much demand. Bully boss. They’re stressed out at work. They go home. They can't turn it off or they're still stressed out. So one, it might end up affecting their relationship, their arguing with their significant other, or they're kind of snippy with their kids or they're feeling guilty because they're not spending time with their kids. If that doesn't happen, then they're wondering why. Maybe they can't sleep well, they just, they're having sleep problems because the stress from work. And I'm not saying this is always the case, but here's a common scenario. So the stress from work is disturbing your sleep and then they're wondering why they're gaining weight. Because sleep disturbances can affect your weight or they're wondering why they're having trouble controlling your blood sugar. Because if you're not getting enough sleep, that can be a factor. So this is a scenario where sometimes the key to affecting change is dealing with work stress. It might be getting another job. It might mean having a fierce conversation with your manager. But the issue might not be getting more disciplined and not what you're eating. It may be, in this case we got to do something about that stress job because that's the one that is wreaking havoc on your physical wellbeing. Dr. Berry: I love it. And I think, and I especially think this segues perfectly to kind of our next point. Because obviously someone's not going to be able to Google how to get healthier. Because it's different for everybody. What do you think about the importance of having really individualized plans and goals for each individual person in their pursuit to become healthier? Dr. Donna Hamilton: I’m a huge fan. So much so that I've wrote a book entitled Wellness Your Way. It's literally about making it your way because one size doesn't fit all when it comes to health. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't common themes and patterns. I mean that is the case. But depending on what your underlying issue is, depending on your age, where you live. There's so many different variables that you may have to have a customized plan. You will get better benefits if you have a customized approach to that. And what works for your friend may not work for you. I mean, we tell patients that all the time. If nothing else with prescription meds, right? I mean, we have many times, well my aunt had so and so and she had this, so I'm gonna take that thing and we'd like, don't do that. That's an extreme example, but it happens, right? It's all things. The other piece that's very important. What worked for you 10 years ago, five years ago, might not work for you now. So it's not just customized from person to person. It's customized for point of life for you. You know, you may have had a health issue that a new diagnosis. You may have had a baby. I mean there's so many different variables that's going on. You may have a different job now, so you know, you can't take certain medications because they'll make you sleepy and you can't do that yet. There are just so many different variables. That's why it's so important to have a customized approach for you now. And the best way to do that, again, going full circle, that's my I having their primary care doctor who you know and trust and who knows you. That's why it's so important because they can help customize what you need now. Dr. Berry: Oh, I love it. And of course they can pick up your book. The book was called again, I'm sorry? Dr. Donna Hamilton: Wellness Your Way. Dr. Berry: Wellness Your Way. And remember Lunch and Learn listeners, the link will be in the show notes as well too so you can pick that up and we'll make sure we support Dr. Donna and especially helping enlighten this community. Again, I'm enlightened. Like I said I'm, I've got the five keys like ready to make sure like I'm maximizing my approaches in every single one of them. So again definitely appreciate that aspect of the education today. Before we let you go, because I know your time is busy but couple of things I want to talk about. Because we talk about mindset being a very a buzz wordy type terminology these days, right? But what do you think about health, being healthy in self-care? Is that one in the same way? What do you think the relationship is with those things? Dr. Donna Hamilton: I'm a big fan of distinctions in words and so health and self-care are different though they are interconnected. Self-care is what it sounds like. It's the way you take care of yourself or it's part of how you become healthy or how you maintain your health or how you become healthy. And so self-care helps you achieve your health goals. Likewise if you're healthy or not, your degree of health and wellbeing. That can affect your ability to take care of yourself. A very basic level, if you are feeling so ill physically warned him that you can't get out of bed, it's more challenging. You take care of yourself. You’re either not feeling well. Mentally, not up to it or physically you can't get up and go take a walk. So that's the one. So they are different but they are intimately related. Dr. Berry: And do you find any common misconceptions or issues that kind of prevent people from making sure that their self-care is where it needs to be? Dr. Donna Hamilton: Oh absolutely. The biggest misconception is that self-care is a luxury and it involves luxury items. Yeah, I love a mani, in spa day as much as the next person, I'd love it. But there's more to self-care than massages and mani and even meditation. Those are some of the common things people they gotta take care of myself and you're spotting. You take care of myself at the learn how to meditate. These are all examples of self but self-care is, it's broader than that. And we have to encourage people to look at self-care in different categories. Self-care. It doesn't have to be this separate thing that you make time for. You can have small spurts of self-care that are quick and easy. You can have longer spurts of self-care like a nice vacation but you can also have self-care but you do in the moment at work and also self-care isn't always the juicy fun stuff. Self-care is going in for your annual exam. Self-care is making sure you get your cholesterol level under control. You know self-care is going to the dentist and having your eyes checked right. Those are acts of self-care too. Self-care cannot be having a plan to manage stress at work. It can be making sure once an hour you get up and you walk around if you have a desk job. So there's lots of different ways that we can create self-care that are not these luxury things that you have to add to your schedule. Dr. Berry: I love it. And first of all Lunch and Learn community. You know I love that Dr. Donna. She has told you to get your regular annual visit like three times today and I'm loving every single time she says it because I am 100% here for it. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Yes, thank you. We have to start with the basic and Dr. Berry knows I'm a big fan of acknowledging and then be real. I'm not saying that it's easy or necessarily pleasant to do. That does not change that it's important to do. So it's important. That's why you listen to this podcast. Actually listening to this podcast can count as self-care depending on your intention and the spirit with which you listened to it. And I'm sure most of you are listening to it with the intention of learning information about your health. That's taking care of your mental arena. You're filling in your mind with healthy beliefs, accurate information from trusted, valued physicians in healthcare providers. Because Dr. Berry, he's not just going to bring you anyone. He's going to bring people know what they're talking about. So that self-care. Because it can be confusing these days to have good, reliable, trustworthy health information. You know doctor Google, we love it. But that isn't the best way to get reliable health information. And by not the best way I would say don't do it. Unless it is taking you to a trusted website, of a trusted physician you know. So this counts as self-care, especially if you put the information that you learned into action. Take one step, like one step. And that is counts self-care. Dr. Berry: I love it. And before we let you go and the last question I always employ to my guests, how is what you're doing? How can what you do to help empower others to take better control of their health? Dr. Donna Hamilton: What we teach literally is around knowing what you need and then advocating and taking appropriate actions. That is a core of what we teach at my company. A core of my approach when I work with coaching clients, it's around giving people the information that they need and then inspiring them forward. That is, people say, don't tell your secret sauce, but I'm going to share that with them. That's part of my secret sauce. And Dr. Berry knows I'm big on inspiration and motivation and that's not a Pollyanna sort of way. You know, because doctors, we tell people what to do and we tell them how to do it right. So think about a prescription, take two pills. That's what to do. Take it, you know, at bedtime, a little bit of food. That's how to do it. The Art of medicine is inspiring people to do it and that's a big piece of what we have to do. And that's why you'll find, and people who talk to me and follow me, we'll find that I focus on what's to do, not instead of what not to do. We talked a lot about that. I will share a lot of inspiration and uplifting information because people need that now more than ever. It's easier to take action, take care of yourself when you feel like there's a purpose. So that is a big piece of it. When you start to think about your five arenas, you start to think about, well how am I doing in each of these areas? What's working? What needs some work if feels so much more manageable for starting to feel more manageable than, oh my goodness, what's going wrong? What my doctor said, all these numbers of bad, blah, blah, blah, and I'm afraid I'm getting old. And all that negative self-talk that can actually put you into. It can shut you down. Part of a stress is a freeze response. So people talk about fight or flight, which a lot of your listeners may have heard of. There's a third part that people don't recognize, which is freeze response. It is a physiologic response. So we get overwhelmed. We shut down because we think like our mind and our bodies are programmed so that it kind of, it feels like it's keeping us safe. It doesn't always, but so we keep people inspired and motivated with information and to know that they're doing what's best for them. To understand how to get advocates and how to get good healthcare to support them. Because you don't need to be a doc. That's the other thing I tell people. I mean, we want you to have a medical literacy. We want you to understand what you need. But we train a long time to learn all this information. You don't have to take on all that responsibility. And I say this, everyone who the recovering control freaks out. Raise if you’re listening, tell the truth. I'm raising my hand to, you like to have control because then they'll say. That's a lot of responsibility to put on yourself. Also not realistic. So get someone who can help you. Take care of yourself. And that's that empowered piece. So you know how to talk to about. You know questions asked. You know how to advocate for yourself. But then also you can trust them to help you achieve your goals and that's how this all comes together. So it makes it easy. You have to help your doctor help you and that's how we help you. You keep you up lifted and educated so you know what to do and what to ask for. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love and Dr. Donna thank you for definitely knocking out, knock in that question out of the park. Absolutely an amazing, and again, Lunch and Learn community knock down is when someone that we've been friends for going on three plus years now and every time I see Dr. Donna is, and again this is not just fluff like she is really inspiring. She is really being positive. She's really making sure that you are in a right mindset to be able to move forward. So Dr. Donna, thank you for joining the Lunch and Learn podcast and really help educating us and getting us together. But before I let you go. And again, I keep saying that, but this is a timeframe that I like to show off my guest. I'm very fortunate enough to know some amazing people doing some absolutely amazing things. Dr. Donna hinted at a little bit when she talked about her book on this your way. Dr. Donna I want you to kinda take the floor, let people know what you're doing, what you got for them, books, courses, whatever that is, please let them know now, because I don't know if Lunch and Learn community realizes there's like no, like this is actually like a big dog right here talking to you. That's why I always give the opportunities like, no, just let these folks know like who you are. And they said, ok. Yeah, yeah. That's Dr. Donna Hamilton. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Thank you Dr. Berry. Yes. So as we talked about in the beginning, for those of you who skipped, right, and I am a four time bestselling author. I'm an international speaker. I have been featured on ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So my information is out there and not that we need to have it validated by others, but I'm doing something that other people find valuable. So that's Dr. Berry mentioned you can get my book Wellness Your Way. He's going to have a link to the site where you can go to get an autographed copy for me and it's on Amazon. We are in the process of shifting over some logistics. So if you run there and its listing is not right there right now, don't worry, it's getting up there. What apart through our company manifest excellence, as we mentioned, we do work site wellbeing consulting. One of the pieces of we're very, very excited about as we're rolling out new trainings and courses for managers and CEOs around trauma informed leadership. We're really excited about this. But people may not realize it, but about two thirds of every adult has survived at least one childhood trauma or what we call in pediatrics adverse childhood event. And then if you add, when they get to be adults, you add so-called regular traumas like car accidents and having surgery or so by having a fire. That's a lot of the workforce that is walking around having survived a trauma and so a certain subset of that has may have post-traumatic stress or they're just, they interface a little differently. And we are teaching employers how to have a trauma informed workplace. So we can talk about that a separate podcast. We're teaching people how to be trauma informed with each other so that we all have workplaces that help us get our job done instead of causing us to shut down and be more stressed and less healthy. So we're really very excited about that. I also have a gift. I want to make sure that your listeners have. If they go to manifestexcellence.com/chooseyou. We have a checklist. This is not about trauma informed. I should've mentioned this earlier. This is for what we're talking about today. It's a self-care checklist. There's so much out there around how to be healthy. Even after listening to all this information, you still say, but where do I start? So we've put together a nice short sweet document that goes over some of the key healthy habits. They'll give you the most bang for your buck. So whether there's certain habits that whether you're trying to be healthy, address diabetes or weight control or whatever, is there certain habits that will give you health benefits across all the different arenas. So we have that list and it's combined with a nice checklist and you can write your notes down and you know what to talk to your doctor about. Dr. Berry I said I'm really big on that. And a lot of times we have all these wonderful ideas and then we go to the doctor's office and the patient doesn't remember anything they want to talk about, like not one thing. And so we have it all in one document. We've got prompting questionnaires. Some of my health goals are blank. I want to talk to my doctor about blank. Doctor can help me with, you know, so please do that for yourself. Again, we want you to be empowered, but we don't want you to be burdened. So we are giving you the tools so that you can help your doctor help you. Dr. Berry: I love it. Absolutely. Oh, okay. Say it again. That's why I love to have amazing guests who bring us stuff. Right? So we're going to actually leave with stuff to be able to kind of get onto the next level because Dr. Donna said correctly. We can tell you all we need to tell you, but you still have to take that action, right? So I want to make sure you download this checklist that take action, get healthy, get to your doctor, get that wellness appointment done and over with, right? So you don't have to have Dr. Donna come after you because you have not done it yet. Dr. Donna Hamilton: It would be to encourage and love you for. That sounds healthy and like fluffy and all of that. But I always do. I tell people, most people do a good enough job beating up on themselves. They don't need me or their doctor beating up on them. So we are going to come behind you and courage you forward and say what's going on? If I did imitations better, I imitate, a nice loving, caring grandmother voice or something like that to inspire people forward. Because most of us know, especially if you're listening to this podcast, you are learning what it is to do. So we just have to help you get out of overwhelm so that you can do it. And that's part of my expertise. Helping people move from the stuck to unstoppable. Dr. Berry: I love it. And what's your website again so people know where they can find you? Dr. Donna Hamilton: Go to manifestexcellence.com and that's where we'll have all the workplace wellbeing information. There's lots of blog posts you can go and we have, I want to say about seven years worth of blog articles about self-care. How to be healthy at work. There's safety. There's a lot of information there. If you are a CEO or manager and you want to bring us in to help with your, to do lunch and learns at your office or to do checkups for your employee wellbeing program, you can contact us there. Or if you are an employee who wants simply some information about how to be healthy, you can contact us through there and they'll get the information to us. And for the guests and for the gift, it's manifestexcellence.com/chooseyou. That C. H. O. O. S. E. Y. O. U. Dr. Berry: I love it, Dr. Donna. Again, I can't thank you enough for not only such an amazing discussion today on health, but really accumulating an amazing month of podcasts that really focus on, we're not just talking about blood pressure. We go, trust me, I've got plenty of podcasts that talk about that, right? But like we want to make sure that we're hitting home the fact that you're like, no, your mindset, I got to get right. If you want to get healthy, we’re halfway, we're already on the other side of halfway towards 2019 and depending on when you're listening to this. So you can start today if you didn't start the first six months. And Dr. Donna you had been such an amazing job and definitely thank you again for joining the Lunch and Learn community. Educating us. Getting us together. Like I said, even though I thought I was a little bit healthy, I'm going to make sure I take myself to the next level. Dr. Donna Hamilton: That's right. We need to aim high, be healthy. Function at your best, in mind, body, spirit, and life. Aim high. Dr. Berry: Thank you Dr. Donna. Dr. Donna Hamilton: Thanks Dr. Berry. Download the MP3 Audio file, listen to the episode however you like.

[00:00] Hi, I'm Connie Sokol, a national speaker, bestselling author, program founder and Mother of seven and loving it. I'm reaching and teaching 1 million listeners to live a purposeful, organized, and joyful life. You can too. So let's go. [00:16] Welcome back to Balance Redefined. It's Connie Sokol and today I have a major vulnerability and live rant to share. Okay, I don't usually share these kinds of experiences, but today this one is literally one of those for the books that I just think how in the world that that happened to me. 'kay. So let me explain what happened. So I have a dear friend who we kind of touch base now and then and I love what she does. She's always helping women and she's just so upbeat and so wonderful and just kind of in a lower limelight way, she doesn't like, you know, parade it around and stuff, but she's got a very active blog and she's just wonderful. [00:55] Anyway she's just a great lady. And I happened to see on this, um, it was either a post was that post or newsletter thing. Anyway, I click to it, but it said, hey, I was featured in this magazine. I couldn't even believe it and or this online article, and it was about spotlighting women who really crushed it in 2018 and I was like, yes, she is finally getting her Kudos. Not that she needed them, not that she was looking for them, but I was so happy and I wanted to read more about it and I was so excited for her, but thinking maybe we should go do lunch and I can like take her lunch. Okay, so little side note here before I share what happened next. You know, if you know anything about me and you've listened to any of my podcasts, you know that I love good women, I love them, they do amazing things and I am, my whole life's work is helping women and families, helping them to find their purpose and fulfill it. [01:43] Helping them to get those organization systems in their life so they can actually spend more time doing the things they want to do. Getting that joy woven in and through and around their lives while they're doing it. Being the one that's, you know, massaging their shoulders and telling them you're doing awesome and you got this and you're amazing. And helping them to hold up a beautiful mirror and say, can you see the good that you are doing? Okay, this is me. Okay. Like I've actually been told I am a woman's cheerleader. Okay. Breathless proving. I just want you to know like this is the thing, it's clearly official with even like a pseudo title that I love to celebrate fabulous women. Have I established that clearly enough? Okay, so this does not diminish me at all when I am celebrating such said women. Okay, so back to this little online articles. [02:25] So I start reading this article and I'm smiling, I'm filled with joy and buttercups and then it hits me. It is by woman number five to have like 20 women they're spotlighting by woman. Number five, I start feeling this wave of Yuck, like I was in fact a total complete loser. Like not just your usual. Wow, they're amazing. And I'm not, not that, but it was this overwhelming your're so in caps lame. You don't know what you're doing. You don't even know tech at all. And by the way, what did you do in 2018 like these thoughts, I cannot express to you how strongly, how clearly they were playing in my mind and they felt so real. You know those moments where like in one instant you went from feeling healthy and disciplined and spiritually in tune and loving and wow, let's rock this day. Let's rock this year to suddenly like, where's my ritter chocolate bar? [03:22] Were, did I stash those Christmas cookies? You know what I'm saying? Like really it was night and day and I started going to this, well who needs a workout? And Yeah, you know, I could be sleeping this year, so who needs this? Oh, it was terrible. I cannot even express the reality of this feeling. It was so strong and yeah. Okay. So I have these kinds of feelings, not to this depth, but I have these kinds of feelings, you know about every three months when we're rolling out a new project, like we're rolling out a new program and I'm all like, you know, hyperventilating, all the different details that have to be taken care of him. He could sure this is just so, and it was, you know, it's all those, those feelings of the potential. What if people don't really think it's worth it and it's worthwhile. [04:02] Even though I have all the stats to prove and the Beta testing and all that, you know that idiosyncrasy kind of low self esteem thing that you kind of go through in this little cyclical process, man, say that five times fast. But you know how you can go through those kind of cycles and, and you kind of, it's expected and you go, okay, I know what this is. It's like that neighborhood stray dog that annoys the tar out of you, but it comes around every couple of weeks and you're like, ah. And then you go, you know what, okay, I'm just going to give them a little bone thing and then he'll go and he'll go off to the next neighbors, make the rounds and he'll be back in three weeks. Okay, it's fine. So with kind of like that, but no, this time it was really, really strong. [04:38] So I just want you to know it was, it was one of those crazy moments that I'm just like, I don't even know what I can do with this. I don't know what to do with it. And I was only just becoming aware that I was feeling this and that wasn't real because then the next thought that came, thankfully this next thought kind of came through and pierced that dark cloud and it gave me this thought of, "yes, let us look at what you did this last year, shall we?" And it was the soft, sweet kind of thought and then like a ticker tape going right through my mind. I start seeing super fast, all the things that I had done in this last year. Okay, let me just give you, this is not like, Whoa, listen to me. I'm telling you for a point, so stay with me. [05:19] Okay, so while raising four children at home, 'kay in three different schools, mind you and getting another one ready for other things, for future endeavors, right? Keeping my focus on family first, which is a huge job right there. 'kay. In the business side, I rebranded my entire business new website pictures. Do you know the choreography for trying to do pictures alone and do them in just one hour? Yeah. Do new systems and set up. I created an Interfaith Women's Conference with, they said it wouldn't even work and we had 600 attendees. Then we even did a mini conference followup version, so it was more intimate and that sold out and created a nonprofit organization from it because it was unbelievably wonderful and then an incredible board of amazing women, diverse, successful, incredible women from our community and then created a lifelong dream of my 12 week online program. [06:10] Started a new podcast and hired a new amazing core team for my business and company. Okay. That's just on the business side. [06:17] Okay, so let's see about the personal side, shall we? Yeah, Hashtag who you call him a loser. Okay. So successfully helped my children flourish through post divorce with some coping skills that were incredible and useful with beautiful experiences doing their homework and life help and the Mama, I'm right here for you love and keeping it together personally during all of this. Okay. Most days. And then helped my daughter graduate from high school with honors. 'Kay. Honestly, she did most of the work, but I was there for those tiers and moments. Okay. I'm just saying secure scholarships and then get college acceptance to her top three schools. Right. Helped her create and then fulfill this Nanning experience in France, which was incredible. And then helped her prepare for a church mission call, which she wanted to do and she received at to France Leone. [07:05] Okay. Can have to go pick her up afterwards yet did I mentioned that, but did I mention during all of these things? I also put meals on a table four nights a week, maybe five 'kay because there's the weekend we have to do Costa Vida, sorry, and no salesy thing. Through endless errands, dance competitions, reading in the classroom at all. Do I make my point? And in the midst of this successfully dealt with being evacuated from our home for the number one fire in the nation and handled it all without chocolate or binge watching anything. Okay. People, there has to be some kind of an award for this. All right? And then wrapping it all up, took my children to serve at a child's hope orphanage in Mexico. Even driving there and back as a single mom, 10 to 15 hours each way and working all things to make it a beautiful life changing experience despite occasional complaints. [07:57] Okay, I ask you, does that sound like I did nothing in 2018 hmm? Now this is not about, oh, who can top who and how much can I do in a year? I'm talking about this little voice that we allow in our heads as women. I want to remind you that I share this for one reason and one reason only. That in that soul debilitating moment of loser feeling, I literally believed I had done nothing of value this past year. What the, hey, how is it possible that especially that I teach women coping skills for this stuff, that I could let this happen. I got sucked in people. I got sucked into the less than Vortex Oh, how did I let that happen? And guess what? It took less than five minutes. Yeah. After all that I did in 2018 all that goes behind those sentences. You know what I'm talking about? [08:56] I still let that happen to me in less than five minutes. What? Ooh, did I come back like a fighting Xena warrior. I'm telling you once I realized it, and you know when you get that moment where you're like, oh no, you did not. You didn't. Not Today, because I was like, that's it. I am not going to go into that whole vortex of, oh, she's so much better than me and I don't do anything. Oh, my life is is nothing. And where's the chips? Right? Which is what we end up doing. So my point today is ladies not, oh, just don't go into the vortex. No, no, no. My point is be prepared for it because it will come, it will come. And that was my downfall is that I thought in my pride, I thought, Hey, I've been teaching this for 20 years and I have my moments. [09:46] I have my little soft moment and I have those really downtimes now and then, but you know, I get back up and I know what's coming, uh, did not even see this blindsided. So I want you to know that even if you're the most amazing woman on the planet, which you likely are, you are going to have those sneaky unsuspecting moments that hit you like a ton of chocolate bricks. And you will feel less than a loser. Like, why bother? What I do doesn't matter. Everyone else has it together kind of feeling right? And it's going to seem so real. So do not get sucked in. How? Ma of course you know what's going to come. I'm going to give you some tips. That's right because I had to use them myself so they worked and so I'm going to share them because that's my go to motto. [10:28] If I do something and it works, I'm going to share it because I want to see what worked for you because I'm gonna sure try it one of these days cause mine's not going to work next time maybe. All right, so try some of these. [10:37] Number one, stop doing what you're doing. Do whatever it is. I was on the social media thing. I was on the online magazine that I was reading. Just stop it. Then say shout, stomp out loud. I am a daughter of God. Now if you have other divine influence or the universe or other divine feeling as you know, I always say just insert it. I am loved and I am of infinite worth. And then if it feels real good, you can add so back off. Right. Cause that helps too. That's number one. Does do that. Number one. And what that does is tell that little voice and whatever influence is trying to bother you, it just tells it ach ach ach not today. [11:15] No, I'm aware. I know what's going on and know the number two go back to truth, go back to truth. What you know to be true. Pray from your gut to God or whoever it is that you feel is that divine influence. Read scriptures, talk with a wise friend, do whatever it takes for you to get to a truthful place and see that feeling, that feeling of going back to truth will already start giving you that happy, peaceful place. That not that competitive feeling, not that discouragement any of those competitiveness, discouragement, doubt. And I'm in competitiveness in a, in a way that makes you feel like I'm going to rip their eyes off because I better than are I am totally a winner and they're a loser. When that kind of competitive, no, that is not what we want. So go back to truth. [12:00] Number three. List what you have done and who you have become. This is not about proving your value. Do not mistake what I am doing here. This is not listing it off and checking in and saying, Oh look, I did 10 beautiful things this last year so I have value and worth. No, this is to do what is one of the most frequent commandments in scripture, which is, you know, this one, remember there's ask and then there's remember, remember, why does he ask us to remember? Because we forget and in that five minutes, I forgot a whole 12 months worth. Okay. As a mother of seven, that's not too hard to believe, but I did. I forgot. Can you imagine? Yeah, you probably can, right? You're done there. If you've had children's especially, but we're to remember, we're to remember who we are and what we've experienced and what we are yet to do to fulfill our personal purpose, to help others that fill their personal purpose. [12:55] So as we remember, we get back to that truth. We remember that truth. We'd soak in that truth. We, it's delicious too. As we chew on that truth and it becomes a part of us because we know that that is the truth. When I was able to list those things out, I could feel in my soul and no, this is actually what is true, not the first voice that was in my head. Okay. [13:16] Number four, express gratitude. Okay. You're probably going, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. If I read one more thing and listen on one more thing that says gratitude. Yeah, but guess what? It works. Yeah. It's here to stay. Just start. No rhyme or reason or you've got to have some cool little thing or app or you got to have something that's, you know, I do three or things are 22 things in one minute or whatever. [13:36] No, just express gratitude for the people or the experiences or things. Things are wonderful. Hilarides, mundanity of life, whatever it is that comes to your mind kind of stuff. It doesn't matter. This makes all the difference. And I did that too. I did that and I was able to start doing gratitude. And you know what? And the beautiful thing, and you'll see this when you go through these moments and you use these tips and tactics, you fight back. Then you start putting it into your life all the time and it's like, Ooh, this is a twofer. This is a bonus. Okay, I'm so glad this happened because now I remembered how important it was for me to do my gratitude minutes, not just every day, but throughout the day. So now I'm doing in the morning, I'm doing the afternoon, I'm doing the evening. So now I'm not just waiting till night for me to do my gratitude journal. [14:22] I am having a focus, concentrated moments of gratitude throughout the day and I got to tell you, it is fabulous and not inconsequentially. I have not had one more of those moments of the voices in my head attacking me since I've been doing that. So I gotta tell ya it works. [14:40] And number five, do a really, really long podcast or her really long ranty kind of post and you will feel much better. All right? Hopefully you will be able to feel and know from I shared that you can handle when this happens. You can go to the edge of that Vortex, but you don't have to get sucked in. You might be there before you realize it, but you don't have to get sucked in. And I think it's fantastic that we can do something about it. So I want you to know that. Now I want to leave you with one final thought to rule them all because this is so important. [15:11] As I was sitting there and thinking of these things, these other thoughts led up to this one final thought, but the thoughts that started coming to me where, oh my gosh, you know what? All women are doing so amazingly. Really, even when we go, oh, you know, she's not doing great, or I wasn't doing great last year, but I'm doing better now even when we don't think we're doing great. We are. We get up, we breathe and we keep our kids alive, right? I mean there's an award for that somewhere, I'm sure too. So I just want you to know you are doing what matters most and you are valued. You are a woman of incredible divine, an infinite worth. You must remember this, every single bit of drool of diapers of dishes and that drama that you deal with matters and it makes your family and this world a better place. [16:00] I promise you never ever doubt that. And just because society or a family member or neighbor makes you feel that your family and this world doesn't really do anything or that you're not very helpful or that you're not amazing as you should be, or you don't get a thousand likes, you don't get a million subscribers or that you, you don't do things that are of value, do not get sucked in because you can with your wisdom and your steadiness and your focus on truth. You can move forward each day and with love, with laughter and with light. You can do this with those focuses and those drivers and you can ignore the rest. So all of these thoughts were coming to me and then it culminated in one thought, one big Mama thought. That's right. One thought to rule them all and it was this; Do Good. [16:54] That's it. Go about doing good and whatever the outcome is. And that's different for everyone. Rejoice in it, delight in it. And if one day that involves creating a new program and the next day it involves taking a nap with a preschooler, then rejoice, have joy. It means that you have discovered the thing that matters most. And just because it may mean one day you discovered the meaning of life and the next day you've just discovered the missing shoe. It doesn't matter. It means that you still know what matters most and you're experiencing it today. You know that whatever you do really, truly, honestly does matter. And I want you to keep that in your soul so that the next time that sneaky other little influence comes prowling around to make you miserable, you stand like that Xena warrior, and you know for yourself what is true and what is not, and make it known that you know. [17:47] Okay, so just as recap, Do Good. Don't get sucked in. Focus on truth. Share your experience and stand like a Xena warrior. All right? [17:58] People back to life as we know it with a joyful vengeance. And remember, if you want more of this good juicy stuff, please click on another podcast or take one of my free masterclasses, they're free. Just hop on there and get more of these juicy life hacks. I want to see you even happier and more organized and feeling that joy and that purpose. Even if you're the most stellar, organized and purposeful - PURPOSEFUL person on the planet. I just want you to know I've got even more for you to enjoy because that is my joy. So I hope you got something great out today. If you did, please comment below something that's a takeaway for you. I would love to hear it and know it and then if you have something you want to share, the others could learn from, please post it below. [18:42] If you want more information on Masterclass, #yes or just go to conniesokil.com and you can find it out there and if you want, you can always go on social media. I've got lots of posts, I've got lots of resources and articles and things and insights and wonderful people just to share with and discussed up. And it's just so great. So go on any major social media, Connie Sokol and you will find me. I would love, love, love to connect with you. And as I mentioned, if you want more great stuff than just click on another podcast and get more Balance Redefined. [19:14] Hi, I'm Connie Sokol and thanks for listening today to balance redefined. Don't forget to rate and subscribe and if you liked it, get even more life shifting. Learning with my best selling books on Amazon from humorous to core content, seasonal to spiritual life hacking nonfiction to fun romance fiction. I have a book for just what you need. So go to Amazon, search Connie Sokol, and check out the show notes for the direct link to guide you there.

Delve into an insightful and revealing conversation on gender, identity, and false equivalencies in today’s society and political environment with the host of The en(gender)ed podcast, Teri Yuan - as Mike Domitrz asks questions he hears as he travels the world on these topics.   * You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**   OR SCROLL DOWN TO READ THE TRANSCRIPTION   BIO of Teri Yuan: Teri Yuan is the host of the weekly podcast, en(gender)ed, which explores the systems, practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it, and uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm, so as to better recognize and confront it in the public sphere. Teri's journey as an intersectional feminist began in college, where she studied feminist film criticism, post-colonial pedagogy and cultural criticism. Along the way, she has added to her identity--survivor and advocate. She believes that by developing a cultural literacy around power and abuse of power, we can reclaim how we define liberty in relationships and in civic life and solve many of our most urgent social (justice) challenges.   Links to Teri and Teri’s work: https://engendered.us/ https://twitter.com/engenderedpod https://www.facebook.com/engenderedpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/engenderedpodcast/ https://medium.com/@engendered https://www.linkedin.com/company/engenderedpodcast/ A special link Teri shared discussing “What Do All These Letters Mean” https://www.socialworkhelper.com/2013/07/25/alphabet-soup-the-story-of-lgbtqia/ The article discussing the research Teri referenced is: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-effect-new-study-connects-white-american-intolerance-support-authoritarianism-ncna877886 Book Recommendations: Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks Love and War by Tom Digby You're More Powerful Thank you Think by Eric Liu  READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf): **IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages: Mike Domitrz: (music) Mike Domitrz: Welcome to the RESPECT Podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from Mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show so let's get started. Mike Domitrz: Welcome to this week's episode of the RESPECT podcast, I want to get right into it so we can meet our guests and get into this conversation. Our guest this weeks is Teri Yuan, Theresa Yuan. Do you prefer Teri or Theresa? Teri Yuan: Teri. Mike Domitrz: Teri, I noticed that when we were communicating back and forth, it was Teri. So but yes, Teri Yuan is the host of the Engendered Podcast, a weekly show that explores the systems, practices, and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it. And uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm. Mike Domitrz: So as the better recognizing it in the public sphere. So, Teri, thank you so much for joining us. Teri Yuan: Thank you for having me. Mike Domitrz: Oh, our pleasure. What do you think is the place respect has in our current political environment and how does civility play a role in this? Teri Yuan: I think one of the underlying causes of oppression and abusive power is the fact that there is no common definition of what respect and civility and the role of both of those should be in civil society. There's no recognition of the humanity of other people and there's no common definition of what equality and freedom means. Mike Domitrz: So that's a great point. So how do you define equality and freedom? Teri Yuan: Equality is where everybody has access, regardless of your gender, race, class, physical ability, etcetera, to all of the rights and privileges and opportunities that should be afforded to all human beings. And then respect, I think, is recognizing and treating other people with understanding, kindness and compassion. And seeing them as whole human beings. Mike Domitrz: And do you think that part of the conflict that occurs out there is that in your definition of equality, that you said that all people deserve, do you think that's where the conflict occurs? That some people think, "No, not all people, we don't deserve this treatment. Like you earn respect." Now I don't believe that statement, I talk about it a lot on the show. Talk about it when I'm working with corporations and organizations. Mike Domitrz: You don't make somebody earn respect, that is a level of arrogance to think, "You have to earn my ability to treat you with respect." But so how do you explain that to people when they say, "Well nobody deserves anything except the basic right to be alive and breathe?" Teri Yuan: I think that it's innate in us to actually treat each other with respect when we're young, when we're babies. Babies have been known in experiments to really show compassion to other living animals, to living beings, whether it's animals or other people that have been hurt. And so I think what happens is over a time, society sends us messages that create a hierarchy of who deserves more respect or less respect. Or no respect. And those messages then become ingrained in us and reinforced and even if we may not innately believe it, we might not have started out believing it, over time we are rewarded for reinforcing those messages based on who we are. Mike Domitrz: Can you give us an example, Teri, of where that happens in society? Teri Yuan: So I think in my most recent podcast for example, I talk about the construction of gender. I think it's a myth for people to think that feminism is only for women and that it's not for men. And people don't recognize that feminism is about equality of all genders, right? And men think that feminism is something that's a threat to their place in society but the issue is because when we're young we're taught that being a boy means being strong and being powerful and exerting our strength, potentially through violence. Through domination. Those are aspects of our being that may not be natural and yet we are going to be rewarded or punished for not being able to adhere to those norms. Teri Yuan: And so people, boys, young boys who might be not interested in sports or not watch, whatever, the NFL. Might be interested in music, you know, the stereotypes of being interested in drama or creative arts. Those are stigmas that we create for our young boys for not really expressing themselves and exploring their creativity and their passions in a different way than what and how society deems is worthy. Teri Yuan: And so what happens is over time those boys potentially could be targets of bullying. They could not be encouraged by their parents or other members of society to really explore those innate aspects of who they are and what they're interested in. And then as they start repressing those aspects of themselves, it creates an imbalance that may lead to potential health risks, they might seek coping mechanisms that are unhealthy that might lead to addiction. Or maybe exerting their frustration in an unhealthy way in their relationships. Teri Yuan: And so that's an example where equality and feminism actually benefits all of us. Women as well as men. And if we can see that and how the system of male supremacy is actually there to control all of us, then I think that's something that can actually garner more desire and the ability to learn how to communicate with each other respectfully. Mike Domitrz: Yeah there was a video recently of, if I remember it was four or five people, most were actors or performers in Hollywood. One was not, Tony Porter and they're around a dinner table having a conversation, and it was released around the world, and it went viral. People could look it up, I don't remember the exact name of it. But Tony Porter's in it, if they want to look that up. Mike Domitrz: And it's men talking about all the different aspects of sexual violence, society and how we treat respect. But they also talk about the pressures they felt as men growing up. That speak 100 percent to what you're saying right there. That this masculinity that I was supposed to be whether it fit me or not. And how dangerous that can be. And so you do the Engendered Podcast, you're the host of that. You facilitate that conversation. Mike Domitrz: When it comes to gender specifically, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding that's out there? Teri Yuan: The biggest misunderstanding is that identity in general of all aspects is a binary. That gender is a binary. And that is has to be either or, you're either male or a female. And there are traits that are specific to being, the same trait can exist in both genders, and it could be perceived in different ways. Usually positively, like being assertive can be positive for men. And if you're assertive as a woman, then you could be seen as dominating. You know, as a supervisor, as a manager. Teri Yuan: And so there's a value laid in dichotomy, you know, binary that cuts it in two. And it's really a continuum so I think that's the biggest myth. That gender is a continuum, race is a continuum. Mike Domitrz: So I want to pause there because a lot of people push back on this part of the conversation which is, how is it a continuum if, and I'm not asking as myself, I'm saying this is what we have as the pushback. You know, you hear what I'm about to say all the time. Teri Yuan: Sure. Mike Domitrz: "If somebody is born biologically with a penis and this person over here is born biologically with a vagina, how is there a continuum." "The penis is the male, the vagina's the female" is what we often hear as pushback. Teri Yuan: Well first of all, biology itself or how it's expressed and its possibilities, aren't necessarily binary as well. So for example, the question of just genitalia, you know lots of babies are born without the full expressed genitalia that we attribute to being a boy or a girl. Or the hormonal corresponding, hormones. Teri Yuan: And as you grow older, for example as a woman, if you were to get a hysterectomy, taking away your reproductive organs, does that make you no longer a woman? I mean obvioulsy culturally, society actually deems that's the case. And attaches certain value to women who can no longer bear children. Teri Yuan: But what if you were like, you were born that way? From the beginning. Does that make you less of a woman? Because it's not the vagina or the, that's not the reproductive organ. It's really everything else, the uterus and the fallopian tubes, etcetera. Right? Mike Domitrz: Well let's say somebody makes that argument then. "Okay, if the body has the reproductive possibilities, that's' a female. If the body does not have the reproductive capabilities, that's a male." Let's say somebody makes that argument, now what's the discussion? Teri Yuan: People don't necessarily identify with their reproductive capabilities. You know, there could be women who don't want to have children, does that make them less of a woman? You know because does that make them not a woman because they choose not to express the full potential of their reproductive organs? Teri Yuan: And similarly a man may have the desire to give birth but that doesn't mean that he can and does it make him a woman? And so biology is also different from sexual desire and your identity. So one can identify male or female right? And be born in a different body. Which is what transgender is. Teri Yuan: But then you can also have different sexual desires so regardless of whether you're a male or female embodied, you may have an attraction to male or female traits or people. And so there's so many layers of gender identity that I think the whole thing is a continuum. Even if people who are biologically expressed very much one or the other, it doesn't mean that they have fully those traits that we have identified as belonging to those genders. Mike Domitrz: I think we [inaudible 00:10:53] so brilliant in that. Why do we think that genitalia is the marker? Or why do we think that reproductive parts are the, actual biological body parts are the marker? What if the marker is the brain? And this is where people can get confused, and they go, "Well wait, if you're born with this body, but your brain's saying this, then you need to convert to your body." Mike Domitrz: As if the brain's not as important, like they choose the judgment of which is happening here. The chemical, what they'll say, "imbalance," right. The chemical imbalance versus the just a different chemistry than they have. Mike Domitrz: But so they say the body, the physical being must be what you convert to which is interesting to go, "Well what about the heart, the soul, and the brain. We have to ignore all those and make them something they don't fit in." Is what you're saying, correct? Teri Yuan: Exactly. Yeah and ultimately it does have to do with the brain. And so if our brain is the organ that controls all of these things and the expression of all of them, our brain is not gendered. And so what does it really matter? You know. And I think the main issue is not trying to reinforce these sort of myths of identity in gender but to really go beyond it and to come to a place of acceptance and back to your show, respect. That people can choose to express themselves and define themselves any way they'd like. Teri Yuan: And it's not just gender, it's with race or whatever, you know. National identity, citizenship, you know, etcetera. So that's obvioulsy one of the common challenges that we have in our day politically, right? Mike Domitrz: Right, absolutely. And when it comes to gender, some people who may be listening, going, "Are you implying there's more than two genders?" Is a question and I've had that in audiences when I say, "Hey, inclusive means all genders." And people go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. All? You mean there's more than two?" Mike Domitrz: So can you explain that? Are there more than two? Are they defined or because there's a spectrum when we say all, we're leaving the possibility open? Teri Yuan: I am not an expert on being able to sort of, I'm not an LGBTQIA expert, so I also want to say that beyond male and female, there's also intersex and obvioulsy asexual. And so how you express your gender, it's the performance of the basically. Teri Yuan: It could be the the physical performance in terms of how you dress, it could be gestures, it could be the things that you like in your sort of day to day activities, that you enjoy doing and how those are associated to particular genders. But ultimately the combination of those three things really determines what your gender identity is. And that's why so many people, even who are heterosexual, they might now consider using the "they/them" pronoun because they're tired of being pushed in this box and trying to fit in. Mike Domitrz: So let's go there because for some people listening, they'll go, "What, did you just say the "they/them" pronoun?" Now for those of us who work in the field, if you work in college campuses, you're aware of what we're discussing right now. Or you may be aware of what we're discussing. Which is when somebody meets someone, they may say, "By what pronoun do you go by?" Or, "I go by this pronoun." And that way people will sit there and go, you know you get the stereotypical, "Is it a "he" or "she?" Mike Domitrz: Which is horrible statement because it's an "it." Right? Versus our "they." Do they identify as a "he" or "she" or "they?" They might identify as they. And people say, "Well why is this?" It allows somebody to be respected in the way they see themselves, it the way that they know themselves to be true of. Mike Domitrz: So this is not uncommon that somebody says, "Well how do you identify?" So for my case, it would be a "he/him" because that's how I identify. But somebody else could be a "her," could be a "they," could be all different possibilities but it's just saying, "How do I see myself." Mike Domitrz: It allows people to be treated right from the start within their identity, is that correct? Teri Yuan: Yes. And I think it's similar to when the Ms. Phrase came out, was it in the 70s? I can't even remember, right, when Ms. Magazine came out, and it was a response to, it was basically Mr. or Mrs. You could only be those two. Or Miss, I guess. So you had Mrs. or Miss. And you were either married or unmarried. And there was nothing in between, and I think- Mike Domitrz: And yet Mr. was always consistent. And that was the argument that, "Hey how come the person that identifies as the male can always be treated the same with Mr. Mike Domitrz: But the woman has to be identified by marriage or not," right. Teri Yuan: Right, right. And then based on whether you're a Miss or a Mrs and it actually helps people calibrate their treatment of you. Right? Which why should that be the case, it should be uniform regardless of your marital status. Teri Yuan: And similarly with they/them, I think what it represents to me is the plurality of identity. You don't want to be boxed into, again, a "she" or "he." And for me especially as someone with, who's Asian American, who's a woman, who has all these other identities that I'm not going to share with you right now. But those other identities aren't necessarily visible and being able to be called they or them, it elevates those other identities in a way that one word and gender would not. Mike Domitrz: Do you think we're moving to the place or do you think it would be more ideal if we move to the place where we're removing gender from the conversation? Teri Yuan: Well I mean I think the goal of equality itself is eventually to make it irrelevant, what you're fighting for, once you get there, right? I definitely don't think we're there at all. We're at the beginning stages of opening up the conversation, and I think we can both recognize from the national climate and how polarized we are that it's going to be a struggle. But I think one of the benefits of having your podcast and this conversation is hopefully to bring other people, regardless of their political affiliations, you know, where they grew up and all the elements that make up their identity that come and see that there are different ideas and opportunities for personal growth. Teri Yuan: And recognizing why people feel certain words are offensive or not, or more offensive or less offensive. And the historical implications of it is something that can really open up dialogue for getting to know each other and hopefully being more compassionate and understanding. Mike Domitrz: Yeah I think it's a really important discussion for people to have. If somebody's listening right now and let's say you're pushing back going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're going against genetics." And actually what we're saying is we're incorporating more genetics. We're taking the genetics of the brain, the chemistry, everything not just the pure physical genetics that people tend to refer to. But if somebody's pushing back right now, I just want to ask you to pause and think, "Why do you need them in the box? Why do you need each of us to fit into a drawer?" Mike Domitrz: Because I know that history will tell you, "Because I can then know where my world is. This is where I learned my world is, and you're saying my world is different. And we don't like change. So let me just put people back in the box." Mike Domitrz: But what value is there in putting people in a box, what value is there in straight categorization of people. It actually places some value higher than others when we do that. It's just a matter of fact. The moment you categorize, that means certain categories are different than others. And therefore we tend to treat differently. Mike Domitrz: So I just throw that out to someone listening right now going, if you're struggling with this, just think why does it matter to you that Jordan identifies this way. Or that Chris identifies this way. And yes, I'm being intentional about the names I chose because then people want to go, "Which are you talking about?" That's the point. Why does that matter if Chris or Jordan are brilliant, if Chris or Jordan bring value to this world, why do you need to know what category they have to fit in in this one area? Mike Domitrz: That's sort of what we're saying here, correct? Teri Yuan: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, it's too long for our discussion, for us to get into now. But I think historically our country was built on basically a colonialist mentality that hasn't really been addressed. And so all of the historical repercussions of white washing and erasing that part of our historical identity has in some ways both rendered it invisible to all of us. Whether it's whatever race or gender we are, we are unaware of our full history. Teri Yuan: And yet at the same time because it's rendered it invisible, we've also had no place to have a discussion for it. And so what it's done is it's created a system where people are trying to connect with one another based on superficial identity constructs, rather than on more deep meaningful values. And the reason people try to put other people in a box is because they crave connection, they crave community. They want to find their tribe. Teri Yuan: And they think that their tribe is based on these things of, "Oh we like to," I'm going to use the sports analogy again, right? "We like to watch the Super Bowl together and have a tailgate," you know, or whatever. But that's just an activity, why do you like that activity? You like it because there's community, there's over time you've built a set of rituals that people engage in, so it's predictive. Teri Yuan: You know that every, I don't know football so well, but every year there's a football season that you can rely on that you could always be able to connect with other people and see. Similarly, people go to church but if we can like look at all of these cultural institutions. And see them as just that, you know, they're just cultural institutions, and peel away the onion to get to who we are as core people, then we don't need to have those sort of artifices to connect with one another. Teri Yuan: We can connect with one another on a deeper level. You know, I care about getting to know you because you and I share the value of treating people with respect and with equality. And that matters to me more than what you do on your weekend or after work, right? And there's a commonality there. Mike Domitrz: Yeah and that's what I always find intriguing. Every now and then I'll meet someone who says, "Mike, hey, one of your best friends is so polar opposite you politically, I don't get that." And I think that's because they're only seeing the political aspect not all the other aspects I see in that person. Mike Domitrz: And that that person brings to this world. And that's true on so many levels. Whether it be gender, sexual orientation, racial, cultural. That when we actually drop the "I identify this way," and walk out as an, "I always have to be connecting with my same identity," I don't have the chance to learn about other people. Mike Domitrz: I don't have the chance to connect on the multiple layers that we are as human beings. And so the more that we're able to drop the, as you said, the institutions, the cultural institutions and just be able to connect on a sincere one on one level. Like, "Hey, what drives you? What inspires you? What angers you?" And be able to have those conversations where real connection happens. It's so powerful. Teri Yuan: Yeah. How do you want to see the world? Mike Domitrz: Yeah. And identifying that way. Right? Like identifying yourself as a loving person. Well see, because if you say, "Well I'm a loving person but those people don't belong," that doesn't sound loving. So are you identifying yourself as a loving person because do your actions then back that up. Now that doesn't mean that I'm not going to be loving to those people who say they don't, they aren't loving because I believe I'm a loving person, I have to be loving to all people. Mike Domitrz: I'm just going to be aware of what energy I let into my life. What I intentionally spend time with energy wise. Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think one of the challenges that we have today that obvioulsy the 2016 election has really exposed, is that people are more willing to remain in their tribe and remain in their community even at the expense of what the values of those communities espouse. Or purportedly espouse. Teri Yuan: And to me, that's very disappointing because there's so much more that they're missing out on. And it's kind of like holding on so dearly, there's also research and I'm sure you've seen these articles recently around how, I don't know if it was just white Americans. But I think it was white Americans who really seek community and sort of defending their white privilege. You know, they're more willing to accept authoritarian rule and they're more willing to give up democratic principles and benefits in their society. Teri Yuan: And that could mean access to facts and access to true values of kindness and empathy and compassion and treating people with equality even though all their lives, they have been engaging in at least in rhetoric, in promoting those values. But now they're willing to give it up because their white privilege is at risk. Teri Yuan: So that's, I think, something that we need to really talk about. Mike Domitrz: Personally I don't know that specific research. That's interesting because you do see it on all, and we do see it on all sides. We see grouping occurring on all sides that say, "Lockdown over here. I'm going to go this way and you're over there and now we're against each other." And neither make sense. Because neither are about love, respect, it's all about my way or the highway which is dangerous when extremes do that. Mike Domitrz: And so, I do not want to imply in any way that one side here is less culpable for their actions than they are. So that's really important but I think it's important for all of us to step back and go, "Where am I potentially lacking living with respect by this choice I'm making?" Mike Domitrz: I think that's an important question. Teri Yuan: Well Mike, I do want to address that point because I think that two often that one of my complaints about the media, mainstream media, is that they're constantly putting forth a false equivalence. Mike Domitrz: Right. Teri Yuan: And I do feel that in some ways, that analogy may be so. Because when someone is doing something, this happens within gender based violence, that community, the violence against women community. Like people, when someone does something wrong, if someone is abusive to their partner and their partner is acting in self defense and happens to use violence in self defense as a response, they are not equally culpable. You know? Teri Yuan: So when you are resisting and trying to defend yourself, that is not the same as the person who actually initiated it and what the intention of that person was. And in the eyes of the law, they both may be treated equally because they both engaged in, based on statutes of assault, they may be actually treated the same way. And so I think similarly when people are trying to sort of erase or minimize our democratic ideals of freedom and equality and the value of fact, and you know, all of our first amendment rights. And others are responding in defense of those, which are the founding principles of our country. Teri Yuan: They are not the same thing. Mike Domitrz: No I'm so glad you brought this up because that's what I was trying to reference. You did it much better than I did. Which is that false equivalency discussion. Which is, yeah that's what we have to be careful of. Not doing that. And I think it's so important. I think we need to have both conversations. Mike Domitrz: Be able to say there's problems on both sides politically right now. In grouping and how people are behaving in groups at times. Especially extreme sides. But at the same time that also means, I should say and at the same time, that does not mean that's okay to use false equivalencies. And that's why I think it's brilliant, the example you gave. Mike Domitrz: That defense from the person in power is different than the person in power causing, starting the harm in the first place. There is a huge difference there. Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think also what happens is, I mean you see these in memes on Twitter all the time with regard to responses to the administration. The best example that I give is someone causes a problem, let's just say the migrant crisis and then they try to minimally address it but not really fix it. And then all of a sudden they get credit for it. Teri Yuan: So it's basically like giving an arsonist credit for trying to put out the fire but not successfully but out the fire that they started. So why are we giving that person credit for something that they actually created but then never fixed. Teri Yuan: And so that's kind of the situation that happens again and again, that I see. And I think it's important to be able to distinguish the person who's trying to put it out because they didn't start it and they're trying to put it out and save that house. Versus the person who's trying to put it out because they realize that people are upset at them for starting that fire and they want to get into everybody's good graces again. Mike Domitrz: That's brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that. You have three books you recommend. One's Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks. Another one is Love and War by Tom Digby. And the last one is You're More Powerful than You Think by Eric Liu. Mike Domitrz: We're going to have all of those links for our listeners and viewers to be able to find at respectpodcast.com. We'll also have that obvioulsy in the show notes if you're listening on iTunes. We'll have that available for everybody. Mike Domitrz: Teri, I want to thank you so much for sharing your insights, and your brilliance today. Teri Yuan: Thank you so much Mike for having me. Mike Domitrz: Absolutely. For everyone listening remember you can join the conversation on Facebook in our Facebook discussion group which is the RESPECT Podcast Discussion Group. Mike Domitrz: Look that up on Facebook, join the conversations, after each episode I typically throw a question out so we can all keep the conversation going. And of course, you'll also on our show, respectpodcast.com, learn all about Teri, find out how to connect with Teri and all of the links. Mike Domitrz: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the RESPECT Podcast. Which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.  

What's going on everybody, hey I want to welcome you to another episode of learning from the experts and I am super stoked about this one today. I actually have an expert on here with me... So here's the deal. I know how frustrating it is as an entrepreneur to waste countless hours sifting through wanna-be experts who never actually helped me in the end. Then to learn years later that there was an expert who really could help me 100 times faster than learning on my own. I have created this podcast to save you time and money while taking you on a journey with me as I learned from an interview real experts who can actually help you grow your business. My name is Coulton Woods and you're listening to Learning From The Experts. Let's go ahead and get started. I want to introduce you to Marie Larson. I've known Marie for almost a year now. It's kind of crazy times flying. Marie Larson is a podcasting expert. She has her own agency. She knows the stuff. If you want to publish, if you need to get your name out there, if you need to blow up your podcast, this is the girl that you need to talk to you. And obviously she's related to Steve Larson, so you know she's a killer and she makes stuff happen for you. She was actually behind Steve's podcast, for quite a while from the beginning stages until it was just massive. And then he had all these other people that do more niche down stuff, anyway, but she was behind it and helped him blow up that podcast. So if you guys need your podcast blown up. She's the woman. So obviously Marie, my listeners don't really know who you are. So I'm going to tell us a little bit about yourself. How'd you get started in this? What's your story? What's up everyone. My name is Marie Larsen. Funny story, as Coulton was saying, I met him about a year ago at funnel hacking live and when I showed up to funnel hacking live this past year in 2018, I was like the poorest of poor kids, right? I had no money to my name. In fact, I left funnel hacking live with $78 to my name. With that being said, I also had a coaching program that was $22,000 that I had to pay off in a year. I had school to pay for and of course the day to day living circumstances as well, so I was pretty much in a pickle, and I had to figure out really quickly what I was supposed to be doing. Now my brother Steven, he's a Rockstar. If you guys have not heard of or know who Steve Larsen is, be sure to check him out. Kids a Rockstar. I'm not just saying that because I'm biased, but he really is super good at what he does. So Stephen reached out to me when I had gotten home from serving a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints. And when I got home, I wanted to be a dentist my whole life Coulton. Here's the funny thing. I wanted to be a dentist, really, really bad. But I got home and I realized that my mom had sat down and she pulled out a list. She was like, here are the people you're gonna have to talk to you. Here's the stuff that you're going to have to do. Here's the date you're going to go into a huge list of stuff. Right? And I freaked out and I looked at that list and I was like, holy crap. I have no desire to go through and actually do that and to go and do the same thing every single day for the rest of my life. Now I love my dentist, thank you to my dentist. But I realized it was not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. As I was sitting there talking to my brother Steven and my dad, they looked at me and said, Marie, we don't want to tell you how to live your life, but you should look into business. And I was like, business? That's so stupid. Like, who does business that's so dumb. And they both kind of chuckled. Both my dad and Steven are pretty known within their industries. Anyway, I started studying it out and as Stephen was walking away one day, he was like, oh, by the way, while you were gone for those that past year and a half, there's this thing called clickfunnels that happened, and you should check it out. So I was like, all right man, whatever, if you want me to sell kitchenware, I guess I'll do that, you know, he was like, it's not kitchen where it's a software. And I was like whatever. Right. So I had started studying out business. I went to funnel hacking live. I had no money, coaching that I had to pay for essentially, really, really quickly with not a lot of money to my name and I promised myself that I would not pull out or go into debt over this at all. That was a big deal for me. So I really buckled down hard and started going into podcasts even more. Now I had done Stephen's podcast for a really, really long time and it was really fun. We had thought of ideas and strategies and things that we could do together and stuff like that. But it was just Kinda my side Gig, you know, a little hustle. It really wasn't helping me too much. It was helping me get by with groceries pretty much. That was exactly what I was doing. And I realized that I wanted to figure out how I can make more money off of this. I realized that there was a very profitable way to go about it. As I was doing this with Stephen, I realize that you can make a ton of money off of a podcast if you actually went about it the right way. But the biggest thing is that Stephen and I realized that as we were doing the podcast that he was getting a lot of face right, that people are starting to see him on Facebook, on Instagram, on twitter, on Spotify, on YouTube. And it was going all over the place. It was all over and his face was getting all over the place and people in his audience started to grow and it was slow and steady and it kept growing and it kept growing and we we're freaking out. I remember when we hit our first year, I don't know, I was like our first 20,000 downloads and we were freaking out. We're like, holy crap we did it. We're in the clear and now he's done hundreds of thousands of downloads for his stuff. But the first time that that happened, it was a big deal for us. So push come to shove, I realized that there was a lot that I could be doing with podcasting in order to grow these influencers in an authentic way where people can go through and find their value and use it within their own businesses. So finding out those, those influencers, those people who are just born to do that, they were there, they're crucial to find and there are a lot of them that don't know that they have this voice inside of them that is ready to explode out. But publishing consistently and really getting your voice out there a lot. So in a long sentence, Coulton, to answer your question like seven minutes ago, I started doing podcasting. I'm out of a mode of survival for sure. That's actually really interesting. Something that I've realized or noticed about entrepreneurs. First off, whenever we get into the corporate world or the nine to five, our soul just kind of gets eaten away. It just sucks the soul out of us. I was in the corporate world for a little bit and I remember every day I felt like I was dying more and more. That's just the way it is. So for us entrepreneurs, it's like we have a message or something that we have to take out to the world and we just have to get it out there. That's awesome that you're helping them get it out there as much as possible. One thing you said is Steve is everywhere now. How is that possible for Steve to be everywhere yet be working a job at click funnels? That was not just a nine to five job. He was working quite a bit there. How is it possible that he was even doing that? Steve’s not a normal kid. We'll just put that out there and if he listens to this, he'll just laugh at that, but I'm going to say Stephen was not working a nine to five. He was working nine to five by waking up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, doing as much as he could beforehand due to his nine to five. Then come home with his family for an hour or two and then work until like 1:00 in the morning. And that was his grind. That was his hustle. So he was pretty much working to nine to five jobs, just not directly 9 to 5. Totally. I know Steven's, well obviously you work with them, that dude, he can work. He's the man. So it makes sense. So I wrote down a question, how do you get people's value out of them? How do you get their voice when you do a podcast? What's the most important part of doing a podcast? Like how do you, how do you make them so that they can be relatable? So people want to listen to them. People want to follow them. Is that something that we can talk about? I will tell you first things first guys do not be the individual that tries to get into podcasting or a YouTube, channel or a Facebook group or start building out something that does it for a month, see that there's not that many results and then give up. The key is being consistent. Steven, we didn't see a ton of results until probably this past six months or so with his podcast as it was like a year and a half of consistent publishing before it exploded to the point where Steven's doing super well. But that means, I mean as we were publishing for him two to three times a week, sometimes four. It just really depended. But the more that we could push out the content and overdeliver and show people that he wasn't going anywhere, that it wasn't just on a whim decision, that he was going to do it, that he was going to be consistent, that he was going to do it, and that people could know that if they wanted the information or content from him, that he was the person to go to. Right. That if they wanted information about funnels, he would be the one that they would go to first. For sure. Now a lot of people will get really upset because they'll get three episodes in and say, 30 downloads. That stinks. And I'll just kind of laugh and say, no, that's normal. That's incredible actually, and you get that. That's awesome. I'm so happy for you. If you are a nobody with no following or anything like that, then you probably have your mom and your sister listening to your podcast and that's it. Right? But you need to go through and really push out and over deliver a ton. A lot of people, as I said before, get really frustrated after a couple episodes, then they'll get to episode 13 or so. Don't give up. If you guys have ever heard Mark Stern or anyone like that within the funnel industry, he always raves about the rule of 30, right? And I have this rule that when you get to episode 30, that's when your downloads actually start to double down. And the reason for that being is that if you can go through and consistently published at least twice a week for and get up to 30 episodes, then people see that you're not going anywhere. And I'll give you an example. Um, economics, right? If you’re the type that’s into podcasts, on your podcasting app on iTunes or whatever, apple podcasts on your phone, and type in the word “economics”, there are going to be hundreds of different podcasts that show up there. So many that will show, but the first one you'll see is one called freakenomics. And then the other ones you'll see are one’s that's done two episodes, one that's done six episodes when that's done, maybe like 15. And then you'll see freakonomics, which has done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes. Now, from my perspective as a person who's jumping on and really does not know that much about economics, I will jump on and I will look and say, oh great. This one show called freakonomics has hundreds of episodes. This other one that's called economics for people who have no idea what economics even means, has two episodes on it. Which one am I going to listen to you more? Right? Which one am I actually going to listen to? I’ll listen to that one has hundreds and hundreds of episodes on it because I know that I will be creating a relationship with those speakers that I don't want to listen to someone that only has two episodes down. I'm not going to waste my time to go through and actually publish or listened to those two episodes as much unless I know the people. I'm not going to go through and establish a relationship with those individuals because they're not worth my time. Because I know that they're not going to be consistent with me, so why should I be consistent with them? So that's a huge thing that I see, especially within the podcasting industry that people give up so quick. If you look at Alex Charfen, Russell Brunson, Steve Larsen, you look at all these people who have hundreds and hundreds of episodes that are high quality, that are good, that have amazing content and value. Of course I'm going to go through and listen to their stuff. Of course those people I'm going to choose over, you know, some kid in his basement that has two episodes on his podcast. I'm not going to go establish a relationship with that person when I know that there is someone over here who is actually trying to provide content and value for me. Hopefully that makes sense. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for that. I think that totally makes sense. Lots of people, and I've noticed this too, they do start out, they get something going and then it's like I'm not really seeing any return on investment on it and then they give up. But what I think is so awesome about podcasting too is you do it once and it's out there and you don't have to re-record it all the time. Russell Brunson, Alex Charfen, those guys have hundreds of episodes and people can listen to them whenever they want. They're always there. I love that part about it. Also to add in there, is that Russell often says, and it's one of my big things, is that “stories sell, facts tell”. Right? When he says that, guys, if you go listen to any of the best podcasters out there, you know the top ten and you'll go through and you'll start looking through them and you'll listen to them and it was in the first little bit. You'll realize that they go through a pretty common structure, right? I was like that weird kid that really loved English and would rather write a 20 page paper then go through and take a test. Right. And so I really understand that structure is really, really important and so when I would go through it and research and figure out these podcasts, I was realizing that their structure was pretty common and similar and with that being said, what happened is that they will go through and they would establish two principles, right? On average they have at least two principles within a podcast or they hit one to two principals or topics and then after that then they have an average of two to three stories per topic. Right? And so each story is there to sell the topic more than just the topic itself. Right. And I'll give you an example of that as well. In my origin story, right? I was going through and telling you, well I wanted to be a dentist, but actually I realized I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. There were so many of you that were probably like, man, I realized there was a time that I was trying to do something that I didn't want to do and Coulton himself even jumped on this podcast and said I was in corporate for a little bit and that killed me. There are so many people that are related to that and instantly because of that one topic, we all relate to it and our different aspects. Now, of course, our stories are not all the same, but the stories are relatable enough where it's going to sell even more. It's going to sell the topic more. This topic of, oh my gosh, I can't do nine to five. Yeah. There's this one time that Coulton did nine to five and it sucks. There's this time that Steven did nine to five and it sucked. There was this time that Maria did nine to five and it sucks, and it's like, well, by the time you build out all these cases for this one point, we're going to sell that way faster than if someone just said don't do Nine to five it sucks. Yeah. I guess there's no nine to five psych because Coulton has experienced it, Maria's experienced it, Steven has experienced so many of these people who have experiences with it. That's what's going to sell the actual topic, not just the topic itself. Man, that is awesome guys. That is gold right there. If you were listening to that, you need to go back and re-listen to it because that is gold right there. You'll notice a lot of interviews, even I started out asking about your story, like you were just saying, a lot of interviews are that way because that is how everybody starts relating to you. And then you keep listening. And then they want it. They're like, oh, I relate so well to this person. I'm going to have to keep listening. It's funny because Steve Talks about starting your podcast and how you have to have your origin story as your first podcast. So I did it on mine. Hopefully it was good, but that's totally what I did on mine. And just so I can help my listeners understand who I am and build a little bit of a credibility with them. That's cool you help people do that with podcasts as well. I've actually had a few podcasts just before this about changing customer's beliefs and I don’t know about you, but I think podcasts are such a great way for you to change the beliefs of your customers or to help them understand that maybe the beliefs that they currently have may not be meeting their needs completely. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like, about helping people just kill it on their podcasts and blown them up that way? Yep. So as far as going on that, excuse me, sorry, Just so you guys know, Marie did like four or five interviews yesterday. So she's um, I'm kind of pushing her a little bit more today to give me one more interview. So she's has to throw in a cough drop real quick. I can't even imagine. Things that I've seen with customers and how a podcast can affect that guy's beliefs are a great way to do customer research and I know that sounds really funny, but what I love about podcasting is there are so many reasons, but you can go through and take that content and push it out like crazy, right? And repurpose it and take it and get transcriptions and then go through and build out blog posts and then we go on Facebook and Instagram posts and all these different things. Um, and then by going through your stats, if you have any sort of social media stats, you can see what's converting really well. I will tell you as well. Some little trick and tip that I use is that I go through and within the industries that I'm researching for, whether it's mine or for a client or something like that. Topics that are converting really well already. Go through and talk about those. Right? And so I'll go and I'll jump into other industries and I'll see what blog posts for them are converting really well. I'll go see what topics are converting really well, what podcasts are converting really well, which episodes are doing super, super well. As soon as you can figure that out and see what people are already looking for and go do podcast episodes about that, that's going to spike like crazy. That's going to help your downloads like crazy because people are already researched it for those. That's awesome that you do that for your customers. I'm sure that is huge. They probably just love you for that. Now you mentioned that it went to different platforms. Can I just ask a quick question? How many platforms do you usually push to for a podcast episode? Like how many can you even push to? I think it was for one of my clients in the past but we got him up to 27 different platforms. There was a lot that. I was using everything for it, from WordPress to Spotify to iHeart radio. Google play too, you name it, we had it on that platform. And so even now there are times where I'll go through and I'll hear someone say, yeah, there's this new platform coming out and it's called this or that. I'll be like, I can get that out, get a podcast on that platform right now, no matter what it is, I'm always trying to figure out how to get stuff onto platforms. And the reason for that being is that people are really, really concise and I guess consistent I should say with their social media platforms, right? Like I'm an Instagram and Facebook user or like I hate twitter, I hate LinkedIn, I like all those things, but I go through and I push Publish to them because it's not about what I like, it’s what my customers like. It's what people are going to listen to, you know, their desired platform. Right. So that being said, you need to make sure that you are publishing to as many different platforms as humanly possible. If you can go through and push them out to all these different platforms, you’ll boost up the seo to all of them. Right? Then all of a sudden you are going through it and you were creating opportunity for people to find you, to share your stuff, to comment on your stuff, to go through and really hype it up for you rather than you go through and publish to one place. Right. iTunes to this day is the number one podcasting platform, right, and it will be, but there are people who choose to listen on anchor and other people would choose to listen on Libsyn and other people will choose to listen on Spotify and so that being said, you have to have your stuff on all these different platforms. You can find customers that way. It will be your most loyal people, whatever it is, but they're not going to go try and find you. You have to provide the opportunity where they can find it easily. Right? Yeah, totally. Thank you so much for sharing that. I wanted to point that out because I don't think people realize the power that comes behind that and how you can click a button and all of these platforms instantly have your podcast or your episode, your content. I think that's so powerful. The whole thing with marketing and with a good business in general is that you make it as painless of a process as humanly possible. Right? Like you can't have it be this big thing where if you go through and you know, do this and this and then jumped through hoops this way or that way, people are gonna give up by the time you asked them to move their right finger. Right. And so they're not going to go jump through hoops to find your stuff. I myself have gone through the process of where I wanted to go and purchase something and just because it was a hard process I gave up and went and bought it somewhere else. And so I have to make my processes, my availability, as easy as possible for people so they can find me and that I'm easy to find and people can purchase from me easily. That is huge. That is so huge. Thank you so much Marie. I just want to say I've actually learned a lot from you myself, even with the podcast and stuff. I follow you on your Facebook group. I follow your podcast as well, which if you guys aren't following her, you should jump on and start listening to her. And I really wanted to get you on here because I wanted to help business owners, entrepreneurs, to know the power of podcasting and what it can do for them. And what's so cool is you take it like they can literally just record their voice, their episode, give it to you and you just make it happen and make it go everywhere. That's so cool. I like that. Sorry, did you have a comment on that? No, it's way fun. I love it. I love being able to get their stuff ang go through edit and make sure that it sounds good. And then add intro’s and outros and all these little things and then after that I want it to be on as many different platforms as we possibly can find that podcast can be on. Yeah. So she is the expert at this. She can tell you what you need to do with the best equipment, like the mic’s, everything. She knows where it's happening. So if you guys are looking at getting any kind of content out there, podcasting, I would 100% suggest you talk to Marie because she can make it happen for you. Mad respect for you and what I think is really cool too about you is you pushed through and made this happen. I love your story. I was there at funnel hacking live with you and I remember you going and signing up for the coaching program and you were like, I don't know how I'm gonna make this happen. Look at you now. This is awesome. I think that just goes to show what it can do for you if you push through and you make things happen. You don't give up. Not without a lot of temptation to give up, that's for sure. There were many times where I reached out to my brother Stephen or Steve or whatever people call him and I said, man, I think I'm done. Like I don't want to do this anymore. This is really hard. And he looked at me and said, well Marie, what else are you going to do? You know, like lean in and you know, if you weren't going to do this, what else would you do? And I said, I don't know. And he was like, you go back to a nine to five, that's what you do. And I was like, crap, you're right. Dang it, I'm not going to do that. And he's like, alright, well then lean in and make it work, Marie. And so I am a 22 year old college kid who has thousands of dollars of coaching under her belt. So cool. Not from school as well, but you know, I have learned so much in this last little bit. It's been life changing. Extremely hard, you know, I'm trying to balance everything from homework to client work and there comes moments where I'm like, shoot, I have a 20 page paper due tonight, or I have client work that's due tonight. Which one do I do? The client of course. But I have figured out little hacks to go through and do my homework. And if I get kicked out for this, I'm sorry, but pretty much what I do is that I'll go through and I'll take my microphone, my podcasting mic. I'll go through and read a few topics that I have to talk about in my paper and I'll go through and I'll record for 30 minutes straight and then I will get a transcription of it and then I will take that transcription and turn it in my paper. Something that takes people two and a half weeks to write. It takes me two and a half hours. So yeah, not probably the best thing, but you know, I'm just trying to be smart about it. No. Yeah. You know what's funny is I was actually telling my wife the other day, I was like, holy cow, I just did a 4,000 word podcast in like 30 minutes and that would have taken me forever in school. Right. I'm not the best writer. I hated writing. I was not an English guy. I was totally not good at that stuff, but I just did like a 4,500 word podcast that ended up turning into a transcription. I totally could have done that for like papers back in college. Oh yeah. I wish I would've known that hack back then, but that's so cool. I just, I am amazed at your story and I think it's super cool. I think back about my college days and not having any money. I had to figure out something to do and that's when I started my repair business. I don't know if you even knew that, but that got me through school. It's funny, like if you look through a lot of entreprenuers they find something they enjoy, they do it and then they become an expert in it and then they started selling their services in that area for being an expert and then they are just killing it. And then becoming an expert for the people. Yes, exactly. And defining the problem as well as you can. Yeah. Well, awesome Marie, that was awesome. Thank you so much for that. Are there any other, as Steve Larsen likes to say it, “truth nukes” that you want to drop for us today? Um, one last truth nuke, I will put out there for listeners, if you guys are looking to start a podcast, there are several things that you need to get started, one being a good graphic, right? And I can refer you to my graphic designer or to someone else that you might have. That's fine too. So that's really important. You need a hosting service, you're going to also need an intro and outro. Now there are podcasts out there that don't have intro’s and Outro’s and that's fine. However, on the ones that convert really well, I actually have a call to action placed within them, right? And so your intro should have steps that go through and explain who you are and, and kind of like your credibility stance on everything and then you should go through and make sure that you have established some sort of curiosity, some sort of question, right? As you have established a goal and said, hey, join me as I established a seven figure business or something like that. And people are gonna be like, Oh wow. Well, how's she going to do accomplish that? And people are wondering how is she going to do it, right? Literally to ask the question for them because people are going to jump on and they're going to say, who is this person? Why am I listening to them? Should I turn them off? Should I keep listening to them? That happens within the first couple of seconds? So if you answer all those questions for them, then they'll keep listening to you, right? Because they're intrigued on how the heck you're building or how you're going out and building out a business, how you're going about building it, you know, different aspects of your industry and then make sure as well in your outro that you go through and you ask people to rate and subscribe. And if you don't ask your people, they're not going to do it. So ask your people, rate and subscribe. And then the other thing is to have some sort of call to action. You want me to speak in your mastermind? Go to example.com. Do you want a free tee shirt? Go to examplecom. Do you have another question for the podcast? Go to the Facebook group. Did it end up right and go there and really make sure that you have places where you can direct people. If you're not directing your people then you just have a nice podcast, but if you can go and have a place where you're actually providing an opportunity for people to go somewhere, then you actually just might make some money off of it. So yeah, that's pretty awesome. Well, speaking to that, you guys, I'm going to have her on LearningFromTheExperts.com She will be one of the experts that will be listed there so you can go and kind of find out a little bit more about her services, but other than that Marie, where can people find you? What's the best place? Yeah. The best place to find me is probably my Facebook group, which is called profitable podcasting strategies for entrepreneurs. I know it's a mouthful, but definitely getting those SEO words in there but check me out there or Facebook in general or Instagram as well and I can shoot those over to you guys. I'm sure Coulton has a place to put all of that. Yeah. And that'd be awesome. And what's your podcast name again? Is it the Audio Expert? Entrepreneur? The audio entrepreneur? I mean the industry of Russell Brunson, everything is experts. So I just assumed it was the audio expert, you know what I mean? Yep. The audio entrepreneur. That's right. Awesome. Thank you so much Marie for being on here and look forward to people getting to know you a little bit more and just killing it with their podcast, through your service. So thank you so much for being on. Thank you so much Coulton. It was a real pleasure. I really appreciate it. Are you looking to jumpstart your business by learning or getting help from the real experts? Go to LearningFromTheExperts.com to find pre-approved experts that I've hand picked for you. Please don't forget to let me know how I'm doing by subscribing, rating, and leaving feedback.  

Why Dave Decided to talk to Marcos Moura: Marcos Moura is one of the founders of Amada Senior Care. A franchise that specializes in providing home health care for seniors. An 8-figure click funnel award winner, Marcos has franchised over 120 locations and is anticipating putting another 200 locations on the map in the near future. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Teaching entrepreneurs how to start a senior care business? (5:52) How to take your offer and put it in front of the right people? (11:00) Providing a business in a box to the entrepreneur: (17:00) Quotable Moments: "We provide a business in a box to the entrepreneur. They are never going to have to go find some other way to do it. All the marketing pieces, all the flyers, everything." "I hope marketers really see themselves as not just marketers, but as revolutionaries." "You don't have to start that low. I love that you start at $48,000. Totally extreme. It's like, no, we know what we are. And because of that, you're able to really get super, super dialed in on exactly who you're and you're marketing to." Other Tidbits: Marcos discusses his journey building Amada and how he helps entrepreneurs start businesses tailored specifically for the audience they are trying to attract. He discusses how to manage a high-ticket funnel, building a franchise and how to market effectively. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here is your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody welcome back. You guys have Speaker 2:     00:19         of your life today. I am so excited. I've. I've known this guy for a long time and I want to make sure you guys understand. I bring on a lot of people onto the show here who've got everyone thinks, oh, I can use clickfunnels for information products or maybe for for lead Gen, for a retail shop or something like that. I want to introduce you guys to Marcus Mora, who is the founder of Amata senior care and it's the coolest thing ever because they actually are using click funnels for franchises, but as cool as that is, marcus is the guy. Nicest guy you'll ever meet in the entire world. The funnel hacking live. We were in San Diego, the botnet. It's kind of a joke now, but we appreciate it. The time is bringing the jot down the loudest. Take the team out on the yacht and everything else is the Harvard, but without any further ado, let's welcome to the show. Speaker 2:     01:05         Hey, thank you dave. I really appreciate you having me on. This is a huge honor. I've been waiting my whole life for this interview. Oof. Well now your life is over. So yeah, it's what a homer Simpson tells. Bart. Bart says this is the worst day of my life, Dad. And homer says your worst day so far, but this is like, this is the pinnacle man. It's so cool to be on this call with you. Thank you so much. Well, hopefully this is the best day of your life so far. So anyways, I wanted to kind of for those, you guys don't know what you do. Help people understand how in the world a franchise, especially in the senior care industry would be ended up using clickfunnels. Yeah. So this happened and I think so many people go through this, right? So, um, I think this is so click funnels launched. Speaker 2:     01:55         What are your Dave? Two thousand 14. So yeah. So, so let's go to 2014 and we're doing what everybody else does out there. You, you need a new landing page because you're trying to attract, uh, I don't know, whatever you're trying to attract, right? Uh, I wanna I want to attract a somebody who is male over the age of 30, who makes this much money that wants this product, right? Or I want to sell this. And what you had to do is whenever I want it to make that page or make a change to that page, I had to either go to an agency, right? The outsourced agency. And we'd say, here's what we want. It's okay. They'll take three weeks, right? Or four weeks or whatever it is. Or we have to go to our, our, uh, our it team, right? And it was the same thing. Speaker 2:     02:41         It was like, okay, that will take three weeks and you're like, are you kidding me? Three weeks for you to change a title here, do that. And so I remember I was googling, um, uh, I know the, I don't even know if I called it a landing page. I seriously guys, I have no tech skills, I'm a sales guy, right? All I needed as I, I needed content on a page, that's it, right. And I knew what I wanted to say and I knew my audience really well, which is something we can talk about if he is kind of an interesting topic, but I knew that but I, but I had no idea and I think I found one of your competitors first because I think it took me like two or three different page makers into click funnels and so we were testing out and I will set something like all three of them, right? Speaker 2:     03:25         I went to that stage where I think a lot of, a lot of people go through this where they have like four different landing page creators. Right? And, and, and you're testing all of them and click funnels. Is it it? It was. It's what we use to be able to be nimble. So what, here's what we know is, is a lot of times we start with a message and the message is not quite right. And so we have to tweak it. We have to change it and we have to make the message too that your click through rates improve and so that's how we started using clickfunnels back when you guys, man first launched and we have used it ever since, you know, that's, that's what we use to drive a tremendous amount of traffic to our company. I love it. Well, the cool thing is I know last year on stage or one of our first eight figure award winners. Speaker 2:     04:13         Ring isn't, I shouldn't say little. It was a decent ring. I hope so. Yeah, bring it back and all the amazing things. You guys are doing tens of millions of dollars a year and I want to make sure people understand. One thing that you just made mention that is of really knowing your audience and how could you guys use linkedin a ton, which is a topic we don't cover that much. So tell people as far as how. First of all, what is your audience? How did you find them and what do you do with them? Yeah. Okay. Now I'll go back. So the ring that I got from you guys on stage, so my partner top of Jefferson played for the Chicago bears. He was a Lineman for the Chicago bears. He played for, played for two years and he got injured. So I no longer have that ring, like softwares. Speaker 2:     05:01         That top of that is, that's a super bowl ring you never got. So I seriously don't tell Russell this, but I don't know where the ring is anymore because to my office, like what is this? Is that is the wing that we got to click on? It goes. I am taken as he put it on his finger. Actually I got it a little too big and he's a massive dude. He's six foot six, half black, half Samoan, just a massive guy, right? So he's got the ring. I hope that's okay. But that was, that was a cool, a cool achievement for us. So, um, so knowing your audience, uh, we, we, um, we started advertising this franchise opportunity, which, so if you guys think about a franchise, it's anything out there, right? It could be blaze pizza, a franchise that's really growing like crazy right now, right where you make your own pizza, right? Speaker 2:     05:52         That's a franchise. And a basically an entrepreneur was thinking, what the heck do I do with my life? And uh, they stumbled onto blaze pizza or onto subway or you stumbled onto any of these franchises and ours just happens to be a franchise where we. So instead of making sandwiches, you're caring for seniors in their homes, which is really cool, right? It's a service that, that seniors need a, it, it changes people's lives. So that's what our franchise is, right? So I know that, that Dave, that I don't know how many of your audiences in Franchisee, but, and it's probably pretty different from everybody listening to this, right? Absolutely. Now, uh, so that's, that's who we are. We, we help entrepreneurs start businesses in the senior care space. And if you think about it, and if you go to what you guys always talk about, really what we're selling is a high ticket funnel, right? Speaker 2:     06:46         Is it, it's a high ticket sale because our franchise fee is $48,000. So think about that. For those of you guys who are selling courses, you're selling a, you know, an information product. Here's what we do. We say, Hey, give me $48,000 and I will show you how to start a business that takes care of seniors. So you can say, well wait, is there like a recipe? No, there's no recipe. Is there like a build out of what the stores? No, nothing like that. Like we're going to coach you on how to become a senior care company, right? For $48,000. So, um, that's, I mean, so think about that. This is what we sell. That's, that's the product, right? So, um, what we knew is we knew something really important that we didn't want to sell the product to just anybody that had the money. Speaker 2:     07:36         Uh, and in the world of franchising and maybe in the world of, of courses, maybe in the world of selling informational products, you may want to just sell the product to whoever has the money. But for us as little bit different, you've got to think about, we're teaching somebody how to go and take care of seniors in their homes. This has to be somebody that is a good person who's going to be a good entrepreneur, who's going to do a good job and not only that, in our business, we make a royalty for the rest of their lives. So they pay us $48,000 and then we make five percent of all of their revenues forever. So we don't want just anybody to be our Franchisee, right? We don't want to go to war with just anybody. We want to have the marine, we want to have the green baret that's going to go and build this business, right? Speaker 2:     08:23         And become successful. So it became incredibly important to us that we needed to really know our audience. And I think that people say that they know their audience a lot of times and they really don't write. Like sometimes people say, well, I want to attract, uh, people, okay, that's not an audience. Well, I want to attract people who love energy drinks. Well, that's still not an audience, right? So you have to really drill down into an audience of one, and in fact, I wish I take credit for this, but so much of this is what Russell talks about. Uh, we, you know, all of us, we read his first book like crazy and so much of this we learned from you guys when you're talking, when you're, when you're attracting people, this idea that you're speaking to one person, right? And who is that person? Speaker 2:     09:14         Um, and so, so, uh, you know, that that's a lot of the work that we did when we first started the company is who is that one person we would want to sell the franchise to. Um, and that I think made us really, really successful. So who is that one for you? Could you, I know you guys got this dialed in really super tight. Yeah. So this is something we also stumbled onto. So, uh, so one of my partners played in the nfl and he's never had a job in his life. The other partner, his name is Chad, and he was a pfizer pharmaceutical rep, so he had been in healthcare for 10 years and then he quit his job and we started a modest senior care and shadow was this amazing salesperson, right? He, he had been trained by some of the best companies out there. Speaker 2:     10:00         He'd been trained by Pfizer. Uh, he worked for Baxter for a little bit. So these, like amazing sales organizations. So we're sitting down and uh, we start to get these, these leads, right? We start to get these leads of people that want to open a modest senior cares and they're all crap, right? They're just terrible leads. And uh, and by the way people with money, like we had people would have said, take my $48,000. And we're saying, no thank you. Can you imagine like, come, especially as your first that's like, whoa. Yeah, exactly. Right now we're just starting out. And so we're saying no to people and so we're sitting down, it was a late night dinner. We're thinking we've really got to find who it is we want to advertise to. And we said, well, what about Chad? Chad is a pfizer pharmaceutical rep. what if we could advertise this opportunity and say, Hey, those of you in America, if you sell pharmaceuticals, if you sell medical devices, if you're a basically in healthcare sales, this could be the franchise for you. Speaker 2:     11:00         And we and we all got really excited about. And then we, and then we thought, how the heck do we do that? How do we actually take our offer and put it in front of. And we started like drawing the person male over the age of 40. He is married, he has kids, he has worked for some of the best pharmaceutical companies in the world. Um, he makes about $150,000 a year and he is now to the point where he feels like all he'll ever be is a salesperson. All he'll ever be is somebody who goes and tells doctors to prescribe Viagra, right? Like they get to the point where they want more of life. And, and this is somebody though that makes $150,000 a year, which is not nothing that's a good salary. But they have this pain and so we, we, we, we did all that. Speaker 2:     11:52         We had a picture, we had a picture of, we got a mind, you're like, this is what it looks like. We pinned it to the wall and we wrote down all these things about this person and then it came, you know, how the heck do we find them? And uh, and then we, we, we were thinking about a different, different job boards and different places. And then linkedin came as maybe the opportunity because on Linkedin, what you can do is if you know exactly who you're looking for, you can then send in an advertisement or an inmail or an ad or something to that one person. So I have an ad for example, and you know, you guys can steal this if you want a funnel hacking, right? So, um, but we have an ad that goes on linkedin that says life after Pfizer and, and it has a picture of a person and that ad only shows up to males over the age of 40 who are salespeople for Pfizer. Speaker 2:     12:57         And, and so when that ad shows up to that person, you know, they're on their computer, they're on linkedin or they're on their phone right in there, they're looking at it and all of a sudden this ad comes across as life after Pfizer. I'm like, holy crap, I mean, I work at Pfizer. What isn't. So our clicksor rates started going through the roof, right? Because you're taking a message that is so incredibly targeted to one person. And once we started doing that and then came the magic of clickfunnels, because once they clicked on Linkedin to an ad that said life after Pfizer or a pharmaceutical layoffs, you know, we would, we would, we have this messaging that was really a punch in the face, right? I mean, you have to punch him in the face if they're going to listen. And then he'd go to a clickfunnels page and on the click funnels page I think is what a lot of people don't do. Speaker 2:     13:49         And Dave, if I'm talking too much, you gotta, you gotTa shut me up. Okay, I will. You keep going. You're doing awesome. So, um, so what happens is once you click on the linkedin ad and they go to, they go to the clickfunnels page, we, we kept the conversation going. So I think what a lot of people do is once you've grabbed them, you're throwing them on some website and all the website does is talk about how handsome you are, how nice you are, how amazing you are, and what your product is and how amazing your product is. And you've lost this communication. You've lost the opportunity to tell your audience why this is good for them, how we can change your life. And so our landing page would say, again, life after Pfizer, find out why you, the pharmaceutical rep are ideal to become an entrepreneur, to take care of seniors, what you know is so valuable. Speaker 2:     14:39         And we would talk about them, we wouldn't talk about us, we talk about them. And so then that conversion, that landing page and click funnels converted better than anything we had ever done. Um, and uh, and that's, and that's what we did. And so, uh, we are one of the only franchise in the world that we were trying to like get this, uh, to be, uh, like, I don't know Guinness Book of Records or something, but we're like the only franchise in the world where almost all of our franchisees are either medical device sales people who left medical devices or pharmaceutical people who left pharmaceuticals. And that's something we're super, super proud of that, that it really did work that if you go out there and you really can service one person and change your life, um, that I believe you, you can be successful. I love it. Speaker 2:     15:29         I think that's probably one of the main reason I wanted to have you on the show is you're so good at being able to identify exactly that Avatar. I mean literally down to the picture on your wall and exactly what he looks like. And I think that's the problem with so many people when they first get started is they think, oh, I'm going to start off on a $7 tripwire thing. I'm to send it out to the world. And whoever clicks on it, that's where my audience is going to be. I'm like, stop. You don't have to start that low. I love that you start at $48,000. Totally extreme. It's like, no, we know what we are. And because of that, you're able to really get super, super dialed in on exactly who you're, who you're who you're marketing to. And again, you guys are amazing the market. Speaker 2:     16:08         I know you. You're the brains behind all this marketing stuff there, Marcos. And so it's really cool to see how you've made, been able to build this in. And you guys built a huge, huge company out of this. So help me understand though. Now person spends $48,000 and they get this coaching. Where does it take them? What, what are you getting five percent of? How does it, I mean usually other franchise, they've got a physical building and the seats and everything else. So how you guys, are you guys doing that? Well, you know, I think the, the big part of this is uh, what we, what we really provide to them as the system that, uh, that they would need in order to go out and market their business to hospitals, skinner's facilities into the families, right? So you need to contracts, you need crm, you need a point of sales system to do billing and all that stuff, right? Speaker 2:     17:01         So we provide a business in a box to the entrepreneur. They're never going to have to go find some other way to do it. All the marketing pieces, all the flyers, a, everything. Seriously, everything they would need is his business in a box for them to go out there. Right? Um, I'm going to cut you off there real quick and I think a lot of people miss is people will pay for done for you. And I think you guys, what do you call it? Business box or whatever you want to name it. I mean, the reality is you've literally done absolutely everything for him. So it's plug and play. They don't have to think beyond just following your exact business model, which I think for, for a lot of people are listening to this realize there's a lot of people who are in that same situation. Speaker 2:     17:43         Maybe they are in their thirties, forties, fifties. As people continue to age, they're like, I'm not done working. I still want to be able to provide value to people and your service provides is massive, massive value. So I think that's killer. Yeah. You know, and in talking about that, what I think is interesting is people with whatever offer they have, you think about a $48,000 offer to somebody and there's lots of ways for you to, to show that offer, right? And you think about, if you think about what we're doing is just saying, give me $48,000 and I'll show you how to take care of seniors, which is not a glamorous thing, right? This is changed guys. It's changing diapers. It's, um, you know, moving people into the shower giving baths. Right now the entrepreneur is in doing that work. It's the caregivers who are doing it, but in no way are we selling something that is glamorous. Speaker 2:     18:36         I'm now and I think that sometimes people don't realize this, that the $48,000 franchise fee, the reason somebody who's really paying you that, the reason their pain is that is there's a pain point. There is something that they want in their lives that they cannot get and what they come to believe. And what your, what your. I think your job as a marketer, a with authenticity at least is to give that audience the idea that, hey, this vehicle that I have for you could be the solution to the pain that you're having and yeah, it's $48,000, but it will, it will get you to where you want to, where you want to be, right? It doesn't matter that it's home care. It doesn't matter that a senior care, it's the vehicle that's going to allow them to become somebody different that's going to allow them to achieve something, be be with their families, uh, have control, not have a boss anymore. Speaker 2:     19:32         Whatever that those things are right. And I do believe people would pay, I truly believe actually, that if we raise our franchise fee to $75,000 today, we would still have people join our franchise because of the, the amazing value we're providing to them, uh, even after they buy the franchise. And also the fact that we're solving such a, such incredible pain that people have in corporate America. Right? Which is our audience. I love it. Oh man marks. I can talk to you for hours on end about this kind of stuff as we get close to kind of wrap things up though. Any other parting words, things you want to make sure people know or learn from you. Um, Gosh, you know what, I, I think with this, for the topic of today that the, what I've learned so much from click funnels that I learned from you, Dave, alert from you, from, from Russell, is really, really understand your audience. Speaker 2:     20:23         None of us have unlimited dollars. So let me tell you guys, you know, if you, if you study the Egyptian revolution, this is kinda weird, but stick with me on this. What? Gibbins resolution. Yeah. So did jeff, were like, this sucks, we hate our dictator, the dictator is bad, what do we do about it? And it's all these college kids that are pissed off, right? And like, what do we do now? College kids, they have no money, right? Um, and if, if, if the authorities figure out what they're trying to do, there'll be killed. So think about that marketing. So if you're doing marketing, think about that's what you're trying to market is a revolution to topple the dictator and you're going to go take to facebook and you're going to do all that. So what's crazy about the Egyptian revolution is they were able to identify exactly who their audience was, why they were so upset about their dictator, and they were able to rally people in the millions to join the revolution and they actually toppled their dictator. Speaker 2:     21:26         If you, it's really cool, you see there's an image where, uh, in Egypt and they're in this town square and there's really millions of people on the street and it started with these college kids going, we've got to build a revolution. And, and again, all they did is they knew who the audience was, they knew the pain points were, and if you do that, it doesn't matter if you have a dollar in your pocket, if you have a million dollars, you can actually build a revolution. And I think you guys did that with click funnels as well, you know, we're aspiring to do. And that's what I had hoped that, that marketers really see themselves as not just marketers, but as revolutionaries. That's what you're really doing. I love it when Marcus, thanks so much. If people want to reach out to you, what's easiest way for me to reach out to you? I don't know, linkedin, anywhere. You guys feel free to reach out to me. I love this click funnels community. Uh, people reach out all the time. So just reach out to me on, on facebook or Linkedin or however you call me, whatever. Anyway, you guys can reach out. Happy to, uh, to get that reach. I love it. Marcus, thanks so much for your time, bud. We'll talk to you real soon. You got it. Speaker 3:     22:34         Hey everybody, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get the next few 100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people. At the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if you'd like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or what I can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Show Links The Day They Invented Offices Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Hi, I'm Todd Werth, the CEO and one of the founders of Infinite Red, and I'm located in a very sunny Las Vegas, Nevada. KEN MILLER: I'm Ken Miller, I'm CTO of Infinite Red, and I am based in the east bay, the bay area. JAMON HOLMGREN: I'm Jamon Holmgren, and I am just north of Portland, Oregon in Washington state in Vancouver, Washington, and I am the Chief Operating Officer here at Infinite Red. CHRIS MARTIN: Excellent, so let's start with just defining from each of your perspectives what remote work is. JAMON: For me, a lot of people think remote work is like working in your spare bedroom, or something like that. Which it often is, it can be. But remote work is really more about the ability to be able to do your work at full capacity kind of in a place other than one centralized office. A lot of companies are built around having an office in an office building. I had a company like that before, where everybody is in physical proximity. But remote work is about being elsewhere, and distributed. TODD: Remote work is not, as Jamon said, working from home. Although, I work from my studio here in my house in Las Vegas. Really remote work is working on whatever you're particularly working on at this time in the most efficient place that is efficient for you. For example, some of our team members work in co-location places, because they enjoy being around other people. They work maybe in coffee shop, or that kind of stuff. Personally, I need pretty quiet environment. KEN: I would actually shift the rhetorical frame around this slightly, and say that for us, work needs to happen someplace where you have the resources you need. And what we're calling remote work is just an acknowledgement that for certain kinds of work, a growing segment that I would say is kind of centered around the tech industry, where being next to the people you're working with physically just doesn't matter. Not that it can't be helpful, but that it's no longer required. To the point that we have started referring to non-remote work as commute work. JAMON: Yeah, I love that term. KEN: Meaning instead of saying well there's this normal kind of work where you drive into an office, which we've come to accept as normal. And recognizing that that's actually a phenomenon that's less than 100 years old. It's saying that like there is this thing that developed when you have a car, and before that, the train, where you could live some place that's relatively far away from where you work. Move yourself physically into that office during the day, and then move yourself physically back. And we're saying let's move the office out to where the people are, instead of moving the people to where the office is. That's really the core for me, right? That it's more to do with do you have the resources you need? Meaning do you have a good internet connection, do you have someplace quiet to work that is conducive to the way that you think? And less about where your body is. JAMON: Ken's exactly right. And what we found is that people sort of gravitate to where they work best. One of the things that's a little challenging is this perception that people just kind of slack off, and things like that. But really, people want to work efficiently. They want to find a place where they feel comfortable, like Todd said before, it's quiet. It's not a lot of interruptions. CHRIS:So when Infinite Red started out, was it a remote company to a certain degree? TODD: Yes. JAMON: No. TODD: Yes. KEN: It depends on where you start counting. It depends on which of us you're asking- TODD: Yeah, because- KEN: Because we were two companies before we started. TODD: Yes, there was Jamon's company, which he ran for 10 years. They were not remote. Infinite Red, the previous Infinite Red before the merge, and we became the new Infinite Red, we started out as 100% remote company on purpose, and our intention was to remain that way for the life of the company. JAMON: Yeah, and it was kind of an interesting transition for us. Because we were not remote for sure, and we were all working in an office here in Vancouver, Washington. It was right about the time that I met Todd, and I don't remember exactly to be honest, whether it was influence from Infinite Red that kind of moved us toward remote, or whether we were ... I know that I had some employees asking about it already, so that was certainly a factor. But the other Infinite Red, the original Infinite Red being a model was really helpful to us, for ClearSight, because Todd and I shared a lot of information, and he would tell me about things that he was passionate about, and one of them was obviously remote work. And we were able to start transitioning that way, and by the time the merger happened, we were pretty much all remote, except for me. Because I was building a home, and living with my in-laws. So I didn't really have a great spot to work, so I ended up staying in the office for another year. TODD: Yep. Ken and I originally discussed, I've worked throughout my 20 years of being a software engineer, I've worked in the office full-time. I've worked partially remote, and I've worked 100% remote. I personally feel that in the office full-time, or 100% remote are the two superior options. I don't like the hybrid view for many reasons. So we were very specifically going to be 100% not 99, not 98%, but 100% remote for everyone for all time. KEN: I feel like I should mention something ironic, which actually proves the point a little bit, which is that as we speak, I am in the same room as Todd, which is in his house, and we are here because it's my daughter's spring break, and we just decided to come and visit. But as far as the team is concerned, there's zero difference. They don't care, it doesn't matter, the only hassle is that we had to set up fancy microphones set up in order to make this work. Right? Which kind of proves the point, right? Which is that when everybody's in their own room, there's actually a lot of things are much simpler. Yes. We don't discount the benefits that can come from being in the same room sometimes, it's just we don't value it so highly that we're willing to sacrifice everything else on that altar, which is what tends to end up happening in commute-oriented companies. JAMON: Ken wrote a really great article on our blog, The Day They Invented Offices. It's a hypothetical conversation between a real estate developer, and a knowledge worker, like an engineer. KEN: It's satire. JAMON: And it talks about a world where basically if offices were not invented, people worked remotely by default. But the real estate developer's trying to convince the knowledge worker that they need to change to a commute company. And all of the benefits that that would entail, and all of the costs as well. TODD: Yeah, it's interesting, because when you do that thought experiment, you realize how ridiculous it would be to go from default remote working situation into a commute working situation, because you'd have to build trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure to make it work. So it was fascinating. I do want to say one thing, Ken mentioned that he was sitting in my office, which he is. I feel him breathing down my neck at the moment. Even if, and we actually have a physical office in Vancouver, Washington, which is in the Portland area. Very few people go there. KEN: It's a mailbox with a couple chairs attached. TODD: But sometimes people will go there and work, and anyone on the team is welcome to do that. Or Ken is in a situation. But we have a basic rule where even if you're physically next to someone, we still work the same way. Meaning we don't have a meeting where Ken and I are talking to each other in person, and everyone ... All the remote people are second class citizens where they're not seeing our conversation. We're looking at each other, and we're making body motion, that kind of stuff. So we still work as if we're remote, even if we're physically in the same location. CHRIS: That's really interesting too, I mean what kind of discipline goes into keeping things where everyone can be a part of it, not just defaulting to that person to person conversation when you're in the same room? TODD: I'm in charge of discipline. We tried writing things on the chalkboard many times, it did not work. Detention seemed a little juvenile. So we went to the old classic of cat of nine tails. KEN: Keelhauling. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Yeah. As an escalation. TODD: To answer your question seriously, which I have difficulty doing, there are a lot of difficulties. Fundamentally, they come from the fact that a lot of people have not only never experienced remote work, have never seen it. We're too many generations removed from the 1800's, when almost everyone worked at their house, basically, and their house was downtown. Your parents didn't work that way, your grandparents didn't work ... they've never seen it in existence. So they really don't know how it works. Not only they don't know how it works, their family definitely doesn't know how it works. And probably the number one problem we have is family, and friends, local family and friends not respecting that the person's actually working. One of the tricks I tell people, and it works pretty well, is just tell your family member that your boss is getting mad at you, or your boss wants you to do something. Because even if you're remote, everyone understands the boss. And just throw me under the bus, it's totally fine, and that seems to work. But that's part of the biggest challenge, is family not respecting your space. JAMON: I think Todd touched on something really important, and that's that this is actually not that new. That was the default way to work. People didn't commute to work. They worked on a farm. KEN: Maybe they walked down the street, but in most cases, not. JAMON: This idea that we have gigantic super highways, and huge transit systems and stuff, just to move people from one location that they could work to another location that they could work for no apparent other reason, it's a little bit mind boggling. Now I understand, I understand why it came to be. Remote tools, which we're not going to talk about much in this episode, but remote tools have not historically been that great, and the experience has been pretty bad. But that's changing, it very much is changing. TODD: The industrial revolution when people started working at factories, and started commuting, and the transportation revolution that facilitated a lot of that. Most of human history, work was not separated from life. Their work life didn't make sense, because you're either relaxing and drinking lemonade, or you're making dinner, or you're sweeping your house, or you're pulling out the potatoes in your backyard, if you're a farmer. The reason we have work life balance now, is because work can be fairly distressing, and you need a break from it. But typically back then, let's say you're a blacksmith, your shop would be on main street, and your house would be behind your shop, or above your shop. So your children would live within feet of where you worked, and where your spouse worked. Whether your spouse worked in the home, or did other things. So your children would eat all your meals with you, they would go to school, school is probably pretty close if they were older. If they were younger, they would eat your meals with you. They'd be around your work, they would see work going on all the time. It just wouldn't be work, it would just be normal, for instance, if you're done with your particular task today, and there's a customer coming in who wants something built for their wagon at two, you might hang out with your children, do some housework, or just play games, or whatever. And then when your customer comes in, you go into the shop, and you service that customer. The industrial revolution made it where adults had to start to pretend to work so they didn't get in trouble. JAMON: So my six year old daughter had an assignment at school, and one of the questions was where does your parent or guardian go to work? And she wrote, "The gym." Because to her, that's when I left the house, was to go work out at the gym. TODD: That's so awesome. KEN: The phenomenon that you're talking about Todd, where the industrial revolution began this process where people started working out of the home, there was a really good reason for that, which is that it was the beginning of humans having to collaborate in a large scale way on bigger problems than they had had in the past, right? Before that, the only place where you would see really large scale collaboration like that would have been I suppose- JAMON: Warfare? KEN: What? JAMON: Warfare? KEN: Warfare, yeah. That's the place where people would leave the house, and collaborate in large numbers, that was really it. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Maybe large farms, I don't know, you could kind of consider that. But culminating in the 20th century, where that was the norm for people to go and collaborate in relatively large numbers some place away from their home. It enabled them to solve problems that you couldn't solve without involving that many people. And of course, we don't want to give that up, and so that's what the modern remote telecommuting company does, is it creates this new kind of collaboration layer, and we've been very deliberate about how we construct that. And I think that's one of the places where companies that kind of dabble with remote tend to fall down, which is that they have all these inherited ways of collaborating that you do when you're in an office together, and some of them don't work anymore. You can't just tap your coworker on the shoulder, you can't just go and like sit next to their screen. You can't all pile into an office on an impromptu basis. So you have to reconstruct habits, technologies, whatever, that can replace those things, and augment them. And we think that, overall, you end up with a better result having gone through that effort of being deliberate about that. And that in a generation, no one will think about these things anymore, because they will simply be the inherited defaults that people who work in an office together enjoy today. And we sometimes meet in person, right? Once a year we get the whole team together, the executive team comes together more often than that. It's not that we don't value that, but we think of it is as a luxury. TODD: Well, it's not necessarily a luxury perhaps, it's important socialization. So Ken and I actually discussed, we went over a pros and cons, like what's good about working in an office? Or in a cubicle, or in hell? What's good about that? Well, you're around other people, and every answer we came up with that was good was all social. It had nothing to do with actually producing any kind of work product. And I basically tell people I commute to socialize, as opposed to commuting to work. So instead of commuting to work five days a week, and socializing one of those days in the office at an office party or something, I work remotely, and I commute to the office party once a week. Not our office, but just local friends, and that kind of stuff. JAMON: It's kind of a funny thing, but yeah, you want to hang out with your friends, not necessarily just with your coworkers. And that may sound kind of weird, and the environment we are now, where often you do make friends with coworkers, and that's all great. But your social life can be something that is a little more deliberate outside of work. KEN: It's not like we discount the social value of people working together in an office, like I enjoyed that when I did it. But I think you're seeing with the rise of WeWork, and similar places, like just in the last five years I've seen the number of co-working facilities explode. And I think that that's part of the same trend, which is that you can have that experience without having to drive for an hour each way, every day. TODD: Yeah. One of our team members, Darin Wilson, he works every day out of a co-location place, and he walks for 10 minutes to the co-location area. That for him is the most efficient, he enjoys that, and that works out well. It's a great example of what works for one person doesn't work for others. I would not like that personally. I also don't like listening to music when I work, other people do. When you remote work, if you like to listen to death metal at extremely high volumes, well have at it. It's great, it's wonderful. KEN: Just turn it off before you get on Zoom please. TODD: Yes. So one of the things I think we shouldn't overlook is some of the great benefits of working say in a cubicle. I would probably estimate 99% of all the funny videos, cool things you find on the internet, were created by extremely bored people sitting in a gray cube. I call them employee fattening pins. So the zombies will appreciate this lifestyle. Not that I dislike commute working, I hope I haven't given off that vibe. JAMON: Not at all. CHRIS: How does remote work make a more engaged worker? JAMON: You know, you have to work at it. There isn't just this appearance of working, right? The only thing that really surfaces is what you actually do, not what it looks like you're doing in your cubicle, right? And because of that, the only way to tell that you are working is to actually work. TODD: Well to actually produce work product, to be more specific. KEN: Yes. JAMON: Actually produce work product, exactly. And we go to great lengths to try to not tie work specifically to time. Because while an eight hour work day is pretty normal, and generally okay, if there are ways to accomplish your work more efficiently, you should be rewarded for that, and not penalized for that by having to sit in your seat for another two hours. It's more about stripping away the appearance of work, and turning to the actual product. TODD: One of our team members moved from Reno, Nevada, to San Diego, California. She moved over a weekend, Friday she worked, and Monday she worked. From the team's perspective, absolutely nothing had changed. Although, she moved I don't know how many miles that is. Hundreds, tens of miles. So that kind of stuff is uber cool. One of our new team members said, "I'm going to New York for a week, can I still work?" And I said, "I assume you can still work in New York. I haven't been there in a few years, but I imagine they still allow that." Turns out they do. Strangely. So I'll tell you a personal story of mine. After I eat at lunch, I don't know if it's my digestive system, or whatever, it sucks the energy out of me so bad. When I worked in a smaller place where people trusted me, I would just kind of take a little nap in my chair. When I worked for bigger companies where such things were frowned upon, I would sit there for two hours from say 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock, trying my best to keep my eyes open pretending to work, and sort of reading Facebook. It's just stupid, and I did that when I was 34 years old. It's just stupid to have adults behave in this way, it really is. JAMON: Yeah, we don't look at that as some sort of a weakness. TODD: Nowadays, I did made a little bit of fun, that's fine. I really enjoy the siesta. I'll go take literally an hour nap after I eat, and then I come back refreshed, and I get lots of work done. And I tell people, I'm going to take siesta, there's no shame in that whatsoever. JAMON: And I think that's important, when the CEO's doing it, it kind of gives people permission to work in the way that is most efficient for them. TODD: Exactly. I personally believe it's super important to have 100% of people remote. The CEO on down. A lot of companies out there that claim to be remote, they're partially remote, and that's fine. I'm glad it works for them. But when you're CEO, and your other executive team have to use all the same tools, remote tools and everything that everyone does, it's not fair, but it's true. Those tools get a lot better. It's true. So if you have the CO sitting in an office, and they don't have to experience the horribleness that is a poly comm conference call, then it's never going to improve. CHRIS: What are some of the common misconceptions of remote work that you often have to explain, or even defend? TODD: Oh, there's lots. One, you're not really working. That's the biggest thing. Two is that you're probably doing your laundry, playing video games, and other such things that people imagine. Those are the kinds of- KEN: Sometimes you are, I'll get to that. TODD: Well sure, sometimes you are and that's fine. But the biggest one if you're at home, people can bother you. Like my mother, which I love very much, she's funny. She comes to visit, and I've worked remote off and on for a long time, so she should understand this by now. But she'll be like, she'll come in and talk to me. And she'll say, "Oh I know you're working," and I have a separate office, so it's very apparent that you're walking into my office. And she goes, "I know you're working so that's fine. Finish your work up, and then we'll talk in an hour or so." And I'm like, "Mom, remember," my mom's retired. I go, "Remember when you worked? You had to go there for eight hours? It was like from 9 AM to 5 PM? It's the same for me, it's not exactly the hours, but it's not like one hour." And so bless her heart, she's going to give me an hour to get my work done, and then we can talk about whatever she wants to talk about. KEN: I think one of the misconceptions that's not a misconception is that it can tend to blur your work time and your personal time. Then one of the things that people say that they like about having a commute and an office to go is that their work time is over there, and their personal time is over here. And I wish I could say that that's not an issue with remote work. It is kind of an issue for the reasons that Todd mentions. Right, it takes a certain amount of discipline to set that boundary. I'm going to make the case that that's not a problem. It is a problem if you hate your work. If you need to like recover from the boiler room that is your work, or the boredom room, or whatever it is that makes your work uncomfortable. That is a problem. I think of this as a feature of remote work, and it echoes what Todd said about it needing to be the CEO on down. Because if it is the CEO on down, the CEO is going to have the same problems that you are. Right? The three of us have the same pressure about when does work begin and end? Are we kind of always working, are we never working? What is that boundary? And it forces the company to either become a good enough place to work that people want to work, and they're not bothered by the fact that it kind of mixes in with their personal life, or die. Like as the evolutionary pressure on the remote work niche, is that you have to be good communicators. You have to be respectful, and you have more ways that you can be respectful, because you're not having to share as much space with people. You don't have fights over what people put in the damn refrigerator. You don't have fights over who's playing what music, and who put up what offensive poster, or all of these things that come when you're forced into this little box together. TODD: The one I really miss is when someone leaves the company, and everyone kind of looks at each other and says, "Is two minutes too soon to go raid everything out of their office?" KEN: Yeah. TODD: And you see these 50 year old people scrambling around like the hunger games, trying to get the better stapler. KEN: The chair, it's always the chairs and monitors. Those are the real prizes. TODD: Yes, and I've worked for places, like I like a very nice monitor. And I always bring my own, because companies never provide that, typically. I've been told, "Oh, we can't have that because if you have a big monitor, other people will be jealous, and so you can't have that." And I'm like, "Well, okay, I'm going to have it. So either this conversation's escalating, or you have a wonderful lunch." JAMON: I think that's something really insightful about this that we'll probably touch on a lot in our podcast, but that is that we're purposely putting these constraints on ourselves that require that we become a better company. That we become a better, we continue to work on culture. We don't have the easy outs that many companies do. And people will look at that and say, "Well, but you can't do that easy out thing that we all do." And we say, "Exactly, we have to do it differently, we have to do it better. We have to work on it." Remote tools are terrible, exactly. We have to go find better remote tools, we have to work on that. Those constraints are good. They're very good. They're healthy. There's something that forces us to continue to innovate, and to self reflect, and look at how we work. I mean the blurring of the lines between personal and work as Ken said, I totally agree. It's about loving your work. And it brings up some positives too, I mean I just spent two weeks in California. We're not at the stage right now where I necessarily want to take two weeks completely offline. I still want to be somewhat available for Todd and Ken. But I was able to be on Slack on my phone at various times. Let's say waiting in line at Disneyland, or something like that. And that may sound terrible to some people, but it wasn't a big deal to me. It was totally fine, and I loved that I could actually take two weeks for my family to be away, and enjoying the sun, which we don't get a lot of here. KEN: In a way, it also makes your vacations more enjoyable, if you know that you're not coming back to two weeks of email. JAMON: Exactly. KEN: Or things that have fallen apart, or who knows, right, where ... yeah. TODD: I love that spin, that's fantastic. JAMON: I don't see it as spin- KEN: Not for me, anyway. I think some people might not feel that way. JAMON: I understand that. KEN: Yeah. JAMON: A lot of people don't, and I am speaking personally here. This is not for everybody, some people totally on the uninstall Slack when they go on vacation, that's fine. For me though, I was on the plane, and I was basically archiving a bunch of emails, and I get into work this morning, and I could hit the ground running, and I'm good to go. What is the real cost of totally disconnecting? The real cost would have been I couldn't take two weeks. I couldn't be away that long. That's what it would have been. I was able to benefit from that, you may only see the downsides, but there's positives there. KEN: And to be clear, this is how it is for us as founders. Right? When it comes to our employees, we pretty much encourage them to mute, or uninstall Slack while they're away. JAMON: That's right, that's right. KEN: They don't have as much need to be sort of always on that we do. Yeah, but for us, it's actually ... I mean from my point of view, it's a benefit. JAMON: But even that, we have some employees that want to travel, and they want to be gone for a couple months. Three months, even. Taking a three month vacation, that's pretty tough, that's pretty tough to do. So with some of them, they may work in the early mornings, or they may work in the late evenings to coincide with their time zone, and then they can be out on a trip for three months. So they are able to continue to be productive during that time. KEN: And that's a perk that Google cannot match, period. That is just something that you cannot do if you work for Google. TODD: Yeah, screw you Google. KEN: Or whomever, right? Any of these companies that expect a physical presence. TODD: We're coming for you, Google. KEN: The point is, so we have one person who doesn't have a permanent home. Right? He moves around pursuing his hobbies, and makes it work. We have other employees who have done exactly what Jamon has said, and they've gone on extended workcations, right? Where they're able to get their work done, and they have the experience of frankly, actually living in another country, as opposed to just being a tourist. And we have high standards for how they get their work done while they're doing that, but because we've had to develop standards that really measure people's impact rather than their face time, it works. TODD: Copyright Apple. KEN: There was a space, you couldn't really hear it when I said it- TODD: Space? JAMON: Face. TODD: Face. KEN: So there was a face, space time. Yeah, right, anyway. TODD: Yeah, we talked about people who want to take longer physical trips around, whether it's around the US, around the world, what not, the benefits. But there's a benefit for another set of people, and I would probably consider myself in that group, as well as some of our other team members, and that's people who choose to live rurally. JAMON: Yes. TODD: We have one person who lives really rurally, and he has a lot of land and stuff, and he can have the lifestyle that he enjoys, and still have a very productive and successful career. Myself, I do live in Las Vegas, but I live in rural Las Vegas. I have a little bit of land. It allows me to live in this way, when I used to have to live in San Francisco, which I enjoyed for a long time, but as I got older I wanted to go back to living on the land and stuff. So for people who want to live rurally, or not just the typical urban or suburban lifestyle, it's fantastic. CHRIS: So when it comes to the client experience of working with a 100% remote company, how do they respond to this way of work? TODD: That's a great question, Chris. Various ways depending on the client. Some clients, that's the way they work, and they love it. Like they see us kindred spirits, that's the way they like to work. Other clients especially if maybe they're more enterprise city type clients and stuff, maybe aren't as familiar with it. We kind of insist on it to be honest, even if the client's local to some or many of our employees, our team. And we just explain it, and we are very articulate in the way we describe how we work. And sometimes they have to have a little faith in us, but after they work through our process, they probably never seen a remote company that works well. I think our company works as well as I've seen. We work with a few companies who are both I think do a good job like we do. A lot of them do not, and I'm very proud to say that quite a few customers who maybe have part-time remote work started opting our procedures, which is a fantastic compliment, and it makes me proud. Because we do spend a huge amount of time thinking about this stuff, and working on it. JAMON: That's actually more common than you think, that we influence our clients in the way that they work. TODD: Can you expand on that Jamon? JAMON: When clients come in, and they experience the Infinite Red way of working, and they see the thought and care that we put into it, and how we're all kind of bought into it, and how we also iterate on it, because it's an ongoing process. We don't have it perfect yet, we're continuing to work on it. They see that things get done, that it can be done well, and that they have the flexibility that remote work affords. It's a pretty neat thing to see them working the way that we love to work. TODD: I don't want to digress, but we use Slack quite a bit for chat communication, that sort of thing. We use email next to nothing. But we have a channel we call rollcall, and the channel is very simple. It's just kind of describe where you are, and if you're working or not. It's analogous to walking in the office and saying, "Good morning everyone, gosh my back hurts, I've been at the gym." And it works really, really well, because it's not forced on people, and people really enjoy the back and forth. So let me just go through this morning's rollcall. One of our team members signed on at 3 AM, and then she went out for breakfast at 6 o'clock. Other people started signing in, one person signed in. It said they laptop issues that they fixed, they explained why. People gave some reactions. Other people just signed in, I said, "Good morning." One person said, "Short break," this is at 9 AM, "Picking up the car from the mechanic." We won't have exactly specific times people have to be working, or available, we want people to be so many hours a day where they can coordinate with other people, have meetings, have work sessions, that kind of stuff. But it's not uncommon people say, "My daughter's having a recital, I'm going to leave after lunch, I'll be back and probably work some this evening." No client meetings, no one's being impacted by that, great, we all give him thumbs up, we say, "Hope it goes well." No one asked if they can do that, no one says, "Hey Todd, can I go to that?" And then around lunchtime, everyone says they're lunching. They might talk about what they ate, some sort of friendly conversation, and you just kind of get a feeling of your team going about their day. And I will finish this long story up by saying it's kind of fascinating. So one of the people I work a lot with is Gant Laborde, who lives in New Orleans. And we work a lot during the day. And when he comes and visits me physically, or I go to New Orleans and visit him, it doesn't feel like I'm visiting a friend I haven't seen in a while. There isn't a lot of chat about how things have been going, it's nice to see you again. Because I've seen him every day for hours, and I just saw him this morning. And by see him, I mean interacted with him either in a video call, or on Slack, or whatever. It doesn't feel like I'm just finally meeting him, it's like we're just continuing what we were doing this morning, it's just we happen to physically be in the same space. It's very interesting phenomena. JAMON: I find it kind of flabbergasting in a way that companies would care about someone taking a break, or going to pickup their daughter, or having to go pickup the car from the mechanic. TODD: Lazy leadership. JAMON: That's exactly right. TODD: I recommend if you're a lazy ... for the lazy leaders out there, or the bad leaders, yeah, don't do remote work. Stick with cubicles, make the cubicles as comfortable as possible to get the worst employees so the rest come to us. KEN: It's probably worth talking about people for whom it wouldn't be a good fit. Obviously there's still plenty of jobs out there where physical presence is implicitly required. Anybody who works in retail, anybody who works with their hands, has to actually physically manipulate things. I think our point has always been that there's just not as many of those as people think. And to be honest, I suspect that over the next 20, 30 years, as robotics and telepresence, and that sort of thing start to really come into their own, that even those sorts of jobs will start to diminish. You already have that even with like medical, the medical field, legal field, things that used to be sort of a high, high physical presence will become more low physical presence. TODD: Surgeons right now are doing surgery with a DaVinci system, both physically, and I think they can do it remotely now. Like they're standing next to it typically, but I think they can do it remotely at the moment. JAMON: What's kind of funny about that is my dad owned an excavation company, and he was one of the first people to get a cell phone, because for him, everything was remote. Like he had to be remote, because he was driving his dump truck to the job site, he had to be there working, and he had to do his office work, because he was like the only guy. He didn't have an office, he didn't have someone handling the paperwork, he had to create invoices on the fly and stuff. So in some ways, some of those blue collar jobs had some of these things figured out way before we did. TODD: That's actually a super interesting point. Logistic companies, or shipping, truck drivers and stuff. They've had to deal with this, I don't know how old you all are out there in listening land, but if you remember Nextel phones, with the automatic walkie talkie feature- JAMON: Totally. TODD: They're useful, very useful. Kind of like an analog Slack, really. So yeah, it's fascinating. A lot of the so called blue collar work has had to deal with this for a very long time. KEN: And it's worth mentioning that even for the core of jobs that will always be physical in person, if you took every office out there that didn't need to be an office, and you converted that to a remote job where people can live anywhere, the reduction in pressure on the real estate market, on the transportation system that would ensue, would make life better for everybody. TODD: Right. KEN: Right? The people who have to commute can commute, because I mean you have this phenomenon as cities grow, where they'll build a new highway, and for five, 10 years if you're lucky, things are great. Because there's all this extra capacity, but what happens in the meantime, is that further down that highway, developers start cramming new houses in, because suddenly it's a doable commute. And then within that five, 10, maybe 20 years, it's back to the way it was, maybe worse than it was, because now there's even more people trying to cram into this road. But if you just snap your fingers, and moved all of those offices out so that that knowledge workers, the people who are working with their brains, and with words, and with digital images, and that sort of thing. And they all scatter to the winds, and live where they want to live, and not in Fremont, or wherever it is that they're living to commute to San Francisco. I feel like, right, maybe like I don't think I've ever seen a study like this, but it seems like it would stand to reason at least that the pressure on transportation would reduce to the point that everybody's quality of life would improve. I don't know, we'll see I guess. JAMON: Yeah, even when you look at something like a dentist office, which is probably extremely resistant to this sort of thing, there's just the robotics are not there yet. And maybe even if they were the trust isn't there yet, with the general public. But how many other people are in that office that don't need to be drilling on teeth? They could be elsewhere. And you're exactly right, the infrastructure, and it's actually kind of happening in some ways. You look at some of the high rises in downtown Portland and stuff, people are coming and living in the city because they want to live in the city, and not because it's next to their office. And a lot of these offices are now being converted into apartments and condos, and being kind of near offices, where you can work from your house. And what would cities look like if every job that could be remote was remote? KEN: I mean yeah, can you imagine a world where the city center is the bedroom community, right? JAMON: Right. TODD: That would be awesome. KEN: Where people live because they want to be next to the cultural opportunities in the city. And the minority of people who actually have to physically work at some job in the city, can live next to their work, because there's just more housing, because like much less of the city is taken over by the kind of white collar workplaces that have been traditional for city centers. TODD: That's actually really interesting to think about. KEN: Yeah. TODD: I imagine somewhere in hell, there is an eight hour bumper to bumper commute, and you're not in a car, but you're literally in a cubicle with a steering wheel. CHRIS: One of the things that I want to go back and touch on is this idea of leadership, and how remote work isn't for the lazy leader. So let me ask the question of the three of you, how has being 100% remote made you a better leader? JAMON: Well, I can speak to my experience going from ClearSight not being remote to being remote. I'm kind of in some ways a forceful personality. I'm kind of a person who likes to move fast, and bring everybody along with him. And in an office, there's actually a sort of almost like a physical component to that. Like the leader's right there, and he's enthusiastic about something. He's moving fast, and he's doing his thing, and he's talking about it where everybody can hear. When I look back at it now, that was sort of lazy leadership. It was. It wasn't necessarily the type of leadership that was people coming along because they were enthusiastic about it, it was more that they were just kind of following the force of nature that was moving that direction. Now that I'm remote, I don't have those physical cues, verbal cues, things like that, to bring everybody along. And it requires a lot more thought and planning around how to get people on board with concepts, and how to get people moving in the right direction. It's a really interesting thing, and it's not something I've totally figured out yet, but it's something I'm moving toward. KEN: I would say that it has forced me to be more explicit about expectations, since you don't have this inherited set of defaults. You have to say, "This is what we expect from you." It's not, "We expect you to come in the office at nine," it's, "You need to be available to clients during an agreed upon window," for example. Or as we had mentioned before, "Here's our productivity benchmark, and this is what we're looking at." You might have to develop some of those in any kind of company, and you should. But our setup, it exposes any fault lines in your expectations, and you have to address them. As Todd said, like if you want to be a lazy leader, don't do it. TODD: I would pile on what Ken said, you have to be able to measure what people, their work output, their work product. That is not easy, even in industries where it's obvious what their work product is. Say they paint paintings, you can see that they painted a painting. That is probably the most challenging thing, and then there's the emotional part. Where if you can't measure their work product, and you can't see them sitting in a seat, you're just going to have to have faith in them, and get over yourself worrying about it. But it is challenging to make sure that you have a semi-accurate view of who's actually being efficient, and who's not. And just not 100% thing. JAMON: That's more on the management side of things. Leadership side of things too is difficult, because getting people to see a vision is much easier when you can just say, "Okay," kind of the Michael Scott thing. "Everybody in the conference room in five minutes." That's a very different thing than what we do. TODD: I think it's challenging, but to be honest, I'm not staying awake at night worrying about those challenges. I find them fairly straightforward, you just have to put effort into it. Keep on walking down that road, and I think it works out really well to be honest. It's not a big deal to me. JAMON: You just have to strike the right balance. TODD: There was a tweet last week where basically it said, "During any meeting, you don't have to listen, just at one point you have to comment and say, 'I think the solution to this problem is just striking the right balance', and then everyone in the meeting nods, and you were involved." KEN: Because it's always true. JAMON: It's always true. TODD: Yes, so that's a running joke here at Infinite Red, where in the meeting at some point someone says, "We just need to strike the right balance." We all laugh. CHRIS: Looking into the future, do you see more and more companies adopting remote work? TODD: It's one of our missions, our side missions as a company, to make it more. It's probably other than software engineering, and software design, which is obviously our main focus of our company. Other than that, probably the number one thing that we're interested in promoting in the world is remote work. So I hope the answer is, it's more I don't know, I'm sure Ken and Jamon have some good insight in what they predict. JAMON: I think that one of the factors that will influence this is I look at my kids, like generation Z. And they don't know what it's like not to be connected, and they don't know what it's like not to be able to just talk to their cousin via FaceTime, no space, and who lives in South Carolina. This is normal to them, this is a normal thing to them, this is a normal way to live and to work. Well, they don't really work, but just to do things. KEN: We'll fix that. JAMON: Obviously for my kids, they're around remote work all the time. But it is a way of life, and I think that you'll also see other things like there are more ways to learn online, versus going to a university and sitting in a classroom. There are plenty of other opportunities for them to get used to this way of doing life. And I think that will have an impact. It may not be moving as quickly as we would like, we would like to see a lot more industries move into being remote work for a variety of reasons. But I think that that is a factor. KEN: I will echo that and say that both my wife and I work from home. And my daughter makes the same face when you say that some people have to like drive to a special place, as when you say that you used to have to come to the TV at a particular time to watch your show. Right? But even before the generational shift, I think it is happening more and more. Ironically, Silicon Valley, which should be at the vanguard of this, is one of the most resistant to the idea. I think that's partly because they've had so much money flowing through, that they've been able to afford the enormous luxury of moving everybody to this expensive place, and then putting them in an expensive office. And to be honest, for a company that is chasing a multi billion dollar idea, and trying to beat their competitors over the next six months, there's a case to be made for doing that. But I think way, way more of those companies think that they are doing that than actually are. JAMON: I actually have a question for you Ken, do you think that this will ... you know you said Silicon Valley is resistant to this, and that's a very location based geo fence there. Do you think that the revolution of remote work will happen irrespective of where people are located, but maybe in a different cohort? A different type of people will bring remote work to the forefront more so than a specific place. Let's say for example Detroit, or something, decided it all of a sudden is all remote. That's probably less likely to happen then- KEN: I think that that's one of the key pieces of this, is like it's like it's creating it's own virtual location. That there's a set of people who don't have the same relationship with place, and that sounds really pretentious kind of. But like they just don't think about physical locations in the same way. The cost aspect of it has caused it to grow in more cost sensitive industries than venture backed startups. And it's not that they don't have those, but I think it's also a certain amount of bias on the part of the venture capitalists themselves, and the kind of people that appeal to them. This is my guess, they will crack eventually. TODD: Having worked in Silicon Valley for 20 years, I do love Silicon Valley, and love San Francisco for sure. But when it comes to remote work, they have an inherent bias against it, because when you endure the heavy cost of relocating to Silicon Valley, and you've got your foot into that door, and you're part of that community, anything that would diminish the rewards from that suffering diminishes you. In other words, it's wonderful being there as an engineer. Everyone you meet is engineers, they're all working on interesting projects. There's a real benefit, I think there's other cities too. Especially some secondary cities like Portland, Oregon, or- KEN: Seattle. TODD: Seattle yeah, and Texas. KEN: Austin. TODD: Thank you. Austin, Texas. I think these are up and coming and stuff. And there's still benefits socially to it, but I think a lot of times they resist it because it diminishes their specialness in many ways. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: And really when we started Infinite Red, and we decided that this will be a remote company forever, and that this is my third and hopefully last company I build, it allowed me to move back to my home state of Nevada without worrying about my career, and that is an incredibly powerful thing.

  I get asked a lot, "Steve, how do I choose what market to sell into?" Well, here's some of the basic criteria I put an audience through to see if I should sell to them... Hey. What's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen, and you're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. I've spent the last four years learning from the most brilliant marketers today, and now I've left my 9 to 5 to take the plunge and build my million-dollar business. The real question is how will I do it without VC funding or debt, completely from scratch? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me and follow along as I learn, apply and share marketing strategies to grow my online business using only today's best internet sales funnels. My name is Steve Larsen, and welcome to Sales Funnel Radio. What's up guys? Hey. I'm super excited for this. I know I'm publishing a lot right now. It's because I have a lot of thoughts, especially after Funnel Hacking Live. That is like throwing gas on the fire for my brain, and I love it. Hey. I am very, very excited for what I want to share with you. I sat back a while ago, and I was sitting down. I was thinking through how many businesses I had tried before ever actually getting one that really started going off the ground. As I looked back and I started realizing it's like, I don't know, 14, 15, 16, 17. I mean, it's a lot. I was going through and I was numbering all the products I had created. I was like, wow, okay, I kind of first started with this one. Then I went to this one. I was like, wow, it's really fascinating. To look back. I encourage you all to do this. I seriously, seriously doubt, and almost bet on my life that I am not the only one who's tried a billion different products, lots of different businesses and failed at a ton of them, meaning of this audience who listens to this. I encourage you to go sit down and start writing those down. It's kind of a neat thing to look back and realize, like why did that fail? Why did that fail? Why did that fail? One of the lessons that I've learned was tossed back into my head. I've had a few people asking me a few questions lately, especially with the recent program, Two-Comma Club X Coaching, that I'm one of the coaches for and that ClickFunnel has just released. A lot of people have been coming to me saying, "Hey, Steven, is this a good idea? Is this a good market? Is this a good product?" Well, first off, I'm not going to know your industry like you are, okay, but I do know the models and patterns that show if it is something typically good to go into usually. Okay, okay. When it comes down to it, like we can teach the models, we can teach the patterns and then after awhile it's guessing. You know, you just have to launch it after awhile and just see if it actually sticks. There's a lot of patterns and stuff that we can walk through to help shave off bad ideas. Anyway, I was recently talking with someone and I had this memory come to my head. Back before I started using ClickFunnels and I was building funnels inside of GetResponse, literally, like the email provider, right, GetResponse autoresponder. They have a landing page software, and I was building essentially funnels on their landing page software. It was terrible. It was so jenky. Anyway, I would like sneeze and half of it would get scrambled. It was the weirdest thing. Anyway, but it's all I had, so I was trying to do that. It's very much part of my character that as soon as I start selling something or as soon as I've learned something and I know it can help other people, I want to go tell them about it. Say, did you know you can do this? Oh my gosh! Check it out? Right? Which is why I think I podcast the way I do. Anyway, one of the people that I wanted to go present this to was a door-to-door company, okay, a door-to-door selling company. I had already done one summer of door-to-door sales at that time, and Vivint, like Vivint Home Security. They had a huge office near the place where I was living at the time. This was six years ago. It was quite a while ago. Five years ago, six years ago, something like that. Anyway, so I walked on in to Vivint and I sat down with some of the owners. It wasn't the "owners" of Vivint, but it was before their massive buyout. They got bought for like $2.4 billion or something for only like 75% of their company. They still maintained 25%, which is crazy. Crazy! Oh my gosh! Can you imagine that? Anyways, it very well may have been some of the top guys because that buyout had not happened yet at the time. Anyway, so I was chatting with them and I was telling them, hey, did you know, you've got these sales agents that are out there doing this and that, right, these reps that are going around. Think about the cost of supporting a rep. Think about this. I could build you this thing that I'm doing called a funnel and we could like totally ... and I started giving them my ideas of basically and front-end funnel, super awesome. I ended up buying like doortodoorsellingsecrets.com or something like that and a whole bunch of other tons of URLs for that. I really like the door-to-door sales game. I think sales is one of the most prestigious, I don't know, careers ever. Call me bias, but I think it's true... Anyway, so I was sitting there and I was telling them about it, and I was like, hey! To be completely honest, I know it would work. I know it would work. Right? It fits all the models. It fits all the patterns. I was like, think about that. This is like having tons of sales agents in lots of cities that you don't have to pay to support. It's all on a website. They were like, "Whoa. That's crazy." It turned out that like they just didn't want it. They just did not want it. Okay. I was like, okay. I was a little bit frustrated. I spent like a couple hours in there teaching them, pitching them, helping them realize. They were like, "Wow, that's amazing. Okay. Let us work this up the chain a little bit and we'll get back to you on that." If you guys have ever done any sales that basically means no. I was like, crap. I walked out and I was like, why didn't they see it? How come they didn't get the value? Right? I guarantee every one of us has had that experience before in some fashion. Okay? You're looking at a customer. You're looking at somebody you know you could help. You can't help them for free because that negates progress rules and laws, okay, right, for the most part. You couldn't do it for free. Anyway, you could not, however, sell them on the fact that this was something that they need, right, that it would drastically improve their life or their business. That's a frustrating thing to sit back and go through. I've been through that tons of times, tons of times, and you guys probably have as well. I recently had someone reach out and ask the question, hey, I've been trying to sell in this area to these people and I just can't sell to them. I don't get it. Why isn't this happening? I had all those memories rush back into my head. You know, I've had the unique experience over the last year and a half-ish, over a year, to coach. I was putting the numbers together. It's almost 900 people that I've had the honor to coach in this process, 900. Okay. You know how many offers I've gotten a chance to see, how many funnels, how many industries? It's crazy. It's crazy. Okay. Before we ever launched Two-Comma Club X Coaching, I was the main coach. I was the only coach, okay, for well over 700 people, and then there's a ton of other people on my own as well. I was thinking through all the lessons and I was looking at the patterns and I was like, man, this is really fascinating. It is a unique perspective to be in. How can I share some of these lessons? Like I said, someone reached out and they asked, like, how come people aren't buying this? I immediately in my head was, this came to my mind, well, you did not choose a money market. That's exactly what popped in my head. You did not choose a money market. They don't want what you're trying to sell. You know they need it, but they don't want it. Right? What I wanted to do is I wanted to walk through real quick some of the criteria, the major foundational criteria that I go through before I ever start putting together an offer, before I ever start putting together a sales message. You guys know, like in the past little bit here I've gone over the core of what a funnel actually is, right, but before I even get to that stuff, man, you have got to turn around and you have got to figure out if the people you're selling to even want your stuff. Let's go through a few of these items. Sound good? Okay, that's what this episode specifically is about, is I want to help you understand, like I'm not telling you that you can't make money if you don't fit these criteria. I am telling you it is a lot easier and faster to choose a market industry, a money market. That's what I meant. Money market, not market industry. Choose a money market, okay. Oh my gosh, it helps so much. I was drawing out and I was doodling this stuff out and I was like, yeah, these are the lessons and you have to have this here and like this part over here. We're talking about speed because you can make money in a lot of different ways and places where people don't want your stuff. I want to tell you from my own perspective, from my own experience, selling my own stuff, helping other people sell a lot of their stuff, helping the people get in the Two-Comma Club. What I have seen these patterns be as to the speed aspect to this, when we talk about the only two numbers we care about in a funnel is average cart value and cost to acquire, but cost to acquire is not just about money. It's also about time. If your cost to acquire, time wise, is huge, I'm not saying that you can't make a whole bunch of money. I am saying that your cost to acquire is gigantic. It's huge. This episode specifically, I've spent quite a bit of time, more than I usually do, brainstorming out this topic and fleshing it out and trying to distill down for us all more of these elements that help drastically decrease your cost to acquire, time wise. Okay, speed, to get the speed up. Are you sufficiently pre framed? Okay, cool. Let's go on. Number one, when we talk about health, wealth and relationships, the reason why, again, that we go back to those health, wealth and relationships, those three markets, are there other markets I'm sure, but those are the three no-duh buying markets. Just like we've talked about before, a no-duh product, a no-duh, like an obvious thing you would go purchase. There's not a salesman next to a gas station. You're going to buy gas. Right? There's not a salesman next to eggs or bread or milk in the grocery store, right? There's not. It's a no-duh buying experience. People are just going to go buy it. They're going to. They expect to buy it. There's not a salesman for your utility bills. They expect to purchase there. Does that make sense? The reason why health, wealth and relationships are such powerful things is because they are areas where people expect to spend money. They expect it, right. I expect to spend money going to the gym for health. I expect to spend money. Everyone says, like, it takes money to make money, which is total crap, meaning it's an expectation, though, right? Relationships. People are willing. They expect to spend cash if they were ever going to go to a therapist or spend money going to a conference or even a date, right? It's going to take some money, typically, right? Those three areas, that's why. Like I've said in the past, while your product itself does not need to naturally fit inside those, your sales message must, okay, but it is way easier if you choose one of those three money markets. Health, wealth and relationships are three money markets. That's the first filter. Does my product fit in health, wealth and relationships? If it does not, can I make the offer. If it does not I at least, at bare minimum, have got to make this sales message fit in one of those three. That's the first criteria. Choose a freakin' money market. It's so much easier. All right. One of the next things. Was Vivint able to spend money to hire me to build a suite funnel for them? I was not nearly as experienced six years ago. I think that was six years ago. If not, it was at least five. Anyway, are they able? Oh, yeah. They've got cash. Oh, yeah. Are they willing? No, or they weren't at the time. Maybe someone hears this, they'll come back to me and hire me. I'd love that, by the way, if someone wants to reach out. That would be a lot of fun. I've got some sweet ideas for you guys. Anyway, there's a ton of people that are able to spend money. They're just not willing. You've got to find this magic combination of the two. If you find people who are able to spend money, meaning they have it, but they're not willing, it means you're selling a need, not a want. If you're selling a need and not a want you automatically are getting inside of an improvement-based offer. In your head you're at least categorized that way, okay, in their head, even if you really are in a new opportunity. Anyway, if I'm talking like straight techno babble here guys, go read Expert Secrets again, okay, and Innovator's Dilemma and Dot Com Secrets and Growth Hacking by Ryan Holiday. In fact, it's funny. As I started doodling all this stuff out and I was like, oh, yeah, Growth Hacker, and I went and picked it up and it literally says, Step Number One. I was like, oh, Ryan and I need to hang out. He says "Step number one, it begins with a product market fit," okay. Paul Graham says, "Make something people want." That was the first thing in the whole book and I was like, yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Stop selling freakin' needs and the way that you sell them is by selling the people that are both willing and able by choosing a money market and selling, which is the third thing here, to irrational buyers. They have to be irrational about it. They have to be like the psycho people, the people that go and they hang out in front of The Apple Store before the new iPhone comes out, when they very well could go purchase one the very next week without spending the night in a tent in front of the store, right? You've got to find the irrational purchasers, and if you are not selling to a category that is irrational about what they are doing, right, a cult, basically, if you're not selling to those, it's very hard. You start selling more into the need category. Needs, needs. Improvement-based offer. If I'm going to go sell a need, that's an improvement-based offer, and what's happening is by default you must start selling by competing on price. Since they don't necessarily want it, they at least don't want to feel like they're getting taken, so they start nickling and diming you down. I don't know if it's worth this much. Bleed for me more. Bleed. Right? No, no. Sacrifice for me more. You end up getting clients and you end up getting customers and you end up getting a following that is not ... They're there because they feel like, yeah, okay, yeah, because of all these logical reasons I do need it rather than, I've to have this! Oh, my gosh, get out of my way. You've got to find people. Anyway, so, number one, choose a money market. Number two, sell to people that are both willing and able and then, number three, sell to people who are irrational. They are ridiculous about the thing you're actually selling. What's cool about this is one of the other categories that I start looking at is, now that like, you guys know that I sell in the MLM space a lot, right. Right now, that's what I'm doing. I love it, and the reason I chose it is because, number one, it's in a money market, wealth. They believe they'll get wealth through the vehicle of MLM, right. Number two, they're willing. A lot of people are not able, though. Stereotypically, a lot of MLMers don't have a lot of money, stereotypically, right. A lot of them, it's the first thing they ever get into. Don't lie to me. You've probably been in a few MLMs yourself. We all have, right. The category of person that I'm selling to inside of that market definitely is willing and able. And then, number three, they are definitely irrational purchasers, okay. Those are some of the categories that I went to to choose that market specifically. Okay. The next thing I go through, and I do this all the time, I look through and you don't necessarily need this part, but it makes it way easier if you can get this part, I like to choose a market, a customer base, that expects to pay higher ticket, right, right. You could be in the business of selling, eggs, bread and milk. Is that high ticket? No. The volume is going to be insane that you have to sell in order to make a lot of cash, right? I like to sell in areas where it's expected to spend a lot of money, right. You don't go to a car shop, even a used car shop, without the expectation of spending at least several grand if it's a bad used car shop, right, but like if it's a nice or even like, let's say, house, right, it's expected that a lot of money flows in those areas. I like to choose where they expect, yes, you know what, I will be spending a whole bunch of cash in this. If you're like in eCommerce or you're in retail ... I was speaking once in Vegas. It was definitely over a year ago now, I think, and I was speaking at an event. I was speaking and Anton Crowley, if you guys know who he is, he's the man who runs a company called Drop Ship Lifestyle that he put together. He spoke right before I did, and what was cool is he got up and he said that he drop ships, but he only drop ships things that are like at least a grand for this exact principal, that because people expect to pay a lot of cash in it, there's a lot of margin in there left over after he pays business costs and product costs and things like that. It's the same kind of thing. Again, it's not that you have to. Okay. It's not that you have to. I'm talking about the core of your business. I don't expect to charge $5,000 for a free plus shipping book offer, right. It's free. You just pay $5,000 for shipping. Right? That's not what I'm talking about all. I'm talking about the core of the business, the middle of the area, the actual thing that keeps our doors open, that slightly more mid to higher ticket area, around $1,000, $500, $2,500, $3,000 around that area, selling stuff like that. If I know that it's already an expectation, oh my gosh, it's so much easier because I don't need to go break that belief. The reason it's this value is because X, Y and Z, right. Then I've got to go start selling logical and I've got to tell even more stories, break even more false beliefs. It's not that you can't. It's just, I'm talking about the low-cost proposition time wise, right. Time wise, it's going to be a lot faster for me to actually go sell when they already expect to pay higher dollar. Anyways, I think I talked about that one maybe too much... I like to ask the question, also, how easy does this sell, not how good is the product or how good is the offer? That's good. The offer's got to be amazing as I've talked about many times, but if I could ask the question, how easy is this for them to purchase. This fits back into the category. It's almost like the question you ask if you, the kind of checks, is it one of the three money markets, is it irrational buyers, are they willing and able? If it sells easily, right. Once you show the house, the actual sale part of it doesn't take, I mean, sometimes it can take a while to close, but you know what I mean. Like, emotionally on their side there's not tons of stuff that has to go. They expect to spend a lot of money. It sells slightly quickly. It's an expectation that it's a lot of cash they're going to have to put out. Does that make sense? Anyway. Here's one other thing I wanted to bring up with this is that I think I was at a FAT event. One of the things that I started noticing was some people would show up to the FAT event and they'd sit in the back and they were trying to figure out what they wanted to do still. I completely get that, and I'm actually going through that a little bit right now. I'm trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. Okay. What's the contribution to the world that I'm going to try to make, not just the marketing world, but the world in general. Russell is starting to ask those questions. He's doing Operation Underground Railroad stuff. Does that make sense? Okay. He's in that phase. The first thing that he did, if you look at anybody who's really been quite successful, even 2017 Funnel Hacking Live, Jim Edwards talked about this. Okay. He talked about this. He said, "Look. The first funnel that you build is the funnel that gets you your bills paid." Right. It's just the one that matches the amount of money you were making at your job. It helps buy back some of your time. The second funnel that you're billing is really the one like, hey, man, you pay off all of your debts. You get the house that you really wanted to. You go get the toys that you want to. And then the third, I can't remember them. He had categories for them and names for them... The third funnel you really go build typically expect that one to be the one where like you don't need the money, but it's like the ludicrous money that frees you for the rest of your life where you go change the world and stuff like that. I think one of the things that people get stuck up on, and Simon Sinek talks about this a lot with Millennials. I'm namedropping like crazy in this episode. Simon Sinek, if you've never heard his stuff, go look him up on YouTube. He's awesome. He talks about this with millennials a lot that one of the things that they'll get stumbled up on is this idea that you must have impact immediately. Yes, it's great if you can, but it's not the thing to get stuck on. Rather than focusing on changing the world first, focus on changing your world first. Does that makes sense? I'm going and it was like a year and a half ago, two years ago, I launched this funnel and it totally changed my world meaning we were able to start chomping away student debt. We were able to ... I mean, it's more cash than we'd ever had. Does that make sense? It did a lot of stuff for our own finances to free us so that now I'm able to do more change-the-world style projects. I think sometimes people will step back and they'll go, and this is a pattern I see, you know, almost 900 people coming through coaching with me now, like the thing that I'll see them doing is they're like, I need to change the world! Ahhh! Then, they've got this complex over it, and yes, that's great, but don't do that first. You know what I mean? If you can, more power to you, but if you can't don't stumble on it. Don't make that as a reason to not get going, to get your butt off the ground and doing stuff. I feel like it's one of the areas that people will step back and be like, I'm not having an impact yet. I'm not changing the world. It's like, you're still working 9 to 5. Focus on getting your funnel out of the ground that actually gets you out of that first, right, that empowers you, that buys back your time so that you can later on, your second funnel, your third funnel, whatever, then you can go do the crazy massive personal freedom funnel, the massive change-the-world project. Anyway, maybe I should have put that in a different episode. That could be a whole episode of itself, but it's already been a long one. I can't believe it. Anyways, I just wanted to bring that up. When I'm choosing a, especially if this is your first one out of the gate and you like haven't totally like blown something up yet, that's fine to not have this massive impact thing. First, funnel hack. See what's out there, right. Follow that yellow brick road as far as you can. Number two, then you're going out and you're adding onto where the road stopped. Right? You're in a new opportunity... Then, when you're actually making the cash, then you're able to be more nimble anyways because you're not so concerned about getting a sale. I'm not going to eat if I don't make this sale. You're not in that area. You can actually step back and make decisions that will change the world rather than, I want to change the world, but, man, I've got to eat. Anyway, I feel like I blended two topics in this episode, but the way I choose a market, right, market, not product, not offer, not even sales message, is I need to find an audience first. This is how I choose an audience. Maybe I'll call this episode that. This is how I choose an audience. Number one, do they fit naturally inside one of the three money markets, health, wealth and relationships. Number two, are they both willing and able? Do they freakin' want it, or are you selling a need? If not, that's fine. Rinse and repeat. Don't be afraid. Money loves speed, right. Be fast. If you realize, oh my gosh. There's just no way I'm going to get enough volume to really make it. I'm selling something you'll need. I know it's a legitimate problem that I'm solving. Yes. Congrats. That's awesome. If they don't want it, you're already, that's rough. Anyway, number three, are they irrational about the way that they purchase? Are they fanatics? Usually, it has to do with having a lot of culture around the market that you're selling into. Do they expect more high-ticket stuff and is it easy to sell? When it comes to you personally, that's how to choose more and more of the audience, but then you personally, as far as expectations in it, make sure the person understands that you may not be in like the massive-level impact-the-world stuff. Maybe you're just changing and impacting your own life, finances and stuff like that in your own family. That's great. That's fine. I find a lot of people lately have like almost a complex about that. I'm not having an impact. It's like, wait a second. You just changed your world and your family's world. That's a huge impact. Are you kidding? Don't focus yet. Anyway. All right. Hey, guys, hopefully it's helpful. Those are some of the base criteria that I run things through and then I go out and I start choosing the sales message, then I go out and I start creating the offer and then building the funnel and then rinse and repeat and going back forth. Anyway, I hope that that helped. I hope that that clarified some stuff. My real hope is that when it comes down to your expectations on this is that you give yourself a license to just change your own world first before you try to change "the world." It'll do a lot for you emotionally as you do that. Anyway. Hey, guys. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Hopefully you guys enjoy this episode. I would love it. I love going, I don't know, call it ego, call it motivation for me to keep doing this. I probably will anyway, but I love, love seeing the reviews. If you guys wouldn't mind I would love to have you guys go over and leave a review for me in iTunes. It means the world to me to see that. IT helps like crazy. We're getting about 500 downloads a day right now. It's been a ton of fun. Thank you guys so much. Thanks for being a listener, and I'll talk with you later. Hey. Thanks for listening. The most common question I get is, Steve, will you look at my funnel. Of course. Whether you want me to coach you, give some handholding and guidance during your funnel build or simply review the one you have, head over to coachmesteve.com and book your session now.

Visit www.BrianMarc.com/blog for full transcript, videos and quotes related to this episode. Hi, welcome everyone. It's Brian Marc Zimberg, number one best-selling author of “Stop Smile Breathe Be” and creator of “Access Points - The Modern-Life Meditation Plan”. In today's video, I want to take a look at a spiritual concept that is often misunderstood and gets in our way to our real personal transformation and spiritual evolution and that's this idea of our Higher Self. So often our Higher Self is what people think of is something that's our better self, our soul self and the issue with that is I really think it's time for us to reframe that and take a look at what is our True-OneSelf. In this video I want you to have a palpable shift in this understanding. Often our misconceptions and our ideas of our Higher Self get in the way of our own growth. So, the idea your Higher Self is this separation right away, you see, it's this idea of higher and lower. Right? There's this Higher Self that is the better you and there's this Lower Self which is the not good you, or that more human you, and there's the Higher Self which is the so you. So, what that does right away is it says that there's this better you over here and lesser you over here. This idea of higher and lower automatically has this existing and focused our intention stuck in this world of separation. Now, if you listen to some of my other stuff you know that when we are in our mind we're automatically in separation. When we're existing in separation, we are in the fear of survival. When we're separate, we are something that can be destroyed.  So existing in separation with this idea of Higher Self is already putting ourselves into an identified fearful representation of who we are as supposed to being in alignment with our True-OneSelf.  Now, what is our True One-self? Our True-OneSelf is that which is already whole. That which is One with everything. You've had that experience out in nature. Remember a moment in nature, we looked out at some beautiful Vista, some an inspiring scene, some beautiful sunset or sunrise. For me, it’s coming around that PCH highway and you see this awe. You know, just these moments we have and in that moment you're one with everything. You're there. You're not there. Everything's okay. Everything's whole. That moment of Oneness is here right now. It's actually here in every moment. And the only reason we think that nature can only be experienced out in nature is because we identify that experience as something outside of ourselves. Or, if we're on a spiritual journey maybe you have epiphanies or realizations and in those moments you have glimpses into that Oneness and that experience. The truth is that moment is here right now. So we need to learn how can we align ourselves with our True-OneSelf, that which is already whole. The truth is you are already One. You are already whole. You're already connected with everything in this moment. And there's only our tension stuck in our minds, in our individual perspective, in the world of separation, that keeps us in a struggle. That keeps us suffering. That doesn't allow us to be at peace. When we align with our True-OneSelf we start to have clarity. And that clarity, the choices that we make in life, every little moment we're making these choices, and when they're made in alignment with Oneness…Right? Oneness first. God first. Oneness first. Our attention is with Oneness first, not in the world of separation, but in the beautiful endless soul that you are, that is one now. When our attention is there, our choices and our alignment rise from there.  And in that, we start to live life in a fluid flow, or incongruent with what is already whole and at peace. When we're in this idea of Higher Self, we have this judgment mind, you see. Again, Higher Self is based on this idea better. So, my Higher Self is more godlike, my Higher-self really takes on the role of our self-conscious which is like our parent voice and the teacher's voice and what those society and world has told you is right and wrong. So now you're existing in this voice which has an endless way of beating the heck out of you. Right? There's a voice inside of you that knows how to get you and put you down. And tell you what you're doing is wrong. And tell you what you should be doing is better. And that voice is endlessly on top of You. It's intelligent for you to assume that this voice that can beat you up will never go away. And what I'm saying to you is - when we tie into this idea of Higher Self, although it can be a good idea for kind of walking on the line of looking how we are doing in life, we're constantly judging ourselves. And when we live in the world of judgment, we're beating ourselves up.  So what happens when we free ourselves to live in the world of acceptance and awareness? Instead of being in the judgment and the critiquing mind, which is often what our Higher Self is, we shift to a perspective of Oneness.  And from that Oneness, we shift to just simple sense of Awareness. An Awareness that is acceptance, is that which already is whole and accepts everything as it is now.  That's the great allowing of life. That's a great opening and the Openness opens your heart to the moment. Instead of you trying to be good and live in the moment - you allow, you let go. And you end up living open to the moment, receiving the moment. And there's space then for good to come and bad to come arising and falling in your True-OneSelf. So, how do we connect to our True-OneSelf? Well, one of the greatest questions we begin to ask ourselves is “Who am I?”. You see, it's a question that we can always ask and never really get an answer to if we don't land on a thought or a concept. See, who you are, you are not your thoughts. You're not your body. You're not your emotions. You're not your feelings. Take that in for a moment.  If it comes and it goes, thoughts come and go, then it's not really the core you, it's not your True-OneSelf.  Your True-OneSelf is always present. It doesn't come and go.  It includes that which comes and goes, but it's always here and present. Therefore, it's always reliable. So I want to leave you in this video with that which is completely reliable and trustworthy. If at your core you find yourself to already be whole, then you're already there. You're already whole and complete. You're already fulfilled. You see, it's the simplicity and the beauty of simply being and allowing. From the space, we flower into a greater transformation of consciousness. You're not your thoughts. You're not your body. You're not your feelings. Those are part of you,  but they come and go. And the truth of who you are – you are CoreSelf. When we exist in the space of allowing, we come from our Core True-OneSelf. That was just, IS the baseline, the absolute and is already whole. We don't come from this idea of better any longer, or more, or right and wrong. The minute we step out of the whole world of separation…You see, I often teach it. Meditation, which is really enlightenment, is really our attention stuck in our mind. Right? Which creates separation, which equals suffering. So the moment you're willing to allow your thoughts to come and go - you're willing to allow your emotions to come and go, you're willing to recognize that your body is temporary in its way it is and even how it looks throughout your life. And you recognize this space that holds everything, then you recognize your True-OneSelf is always here. Your True-OneSelf is always present. Oneness is already here and whole. Instead of trying to be better and judge ourselves for the Higher Self and LowerSelf and being caught in the world of judgment, we start to exist in simply allowing and awareness. So I want to share with you two ways to start focusing on how you can kind of just enter that space that you're already in. See that's the joke. You can't really enter the space that you're already in because you're already there and what we'll be doing throughout the show is looking all the ways in which keep pretending that we're not our True-OneSelf.  So, for now, I want to talk about the witness. The witness is this perspective that is seeing you. Let's say there's a camera over there and it's watching us, okay? You're watching me right now and you can notice this third perspective that's watching you watching me. You get that? Pretend like there's a camera videoing you watching me right now. You're listening to this or you're in your car. Pretend there's a camera as you're driving that car or doing whatever you're doing and that camera is shooting you from over there. Right? So, it's an angle over here. So that witness perspective, I want you for a moment to move your attention to that witness perspective. It seemed difficult and all that, but I promise you it's not, you just go ahead. So for a moment just notice this perspective that's easy from here. It's crazy, but you'll notice it takes nothing for you to notice this perspective. Why? Because that's what is the perspective of Awareness itself. And who you are at your core is Awareness.  Notice this witness that just sees what is, without a problem, without judgment, just sees what is always present, always here. Throughout the day start to just notice that perspective. It's like stepping out of your mind and all this chaos and all the noise, for a moment just noticing this. Without changing anything or without getting rid of anything, just noticing this perspective.So by noticing this witness perspective we just start noticing Awareness itself. An Awareness has no separation. Awareness is your True-OneSelf. See this is the beauty - simply Being.  Another way to recognize our OneSelf in any moment is that you just notice “I am”. Believe, I talked about this in one of our earlier videos, but today three times notice the witness and also today three times just notice that You Are. The simple sense that you are. Thoughts come and go, so not labels about “I am”, not feelings about how you're feeling. That's okay, I don't care how you’re feeling. Of course, I care how you're feeling, I want you to feel great, but you know what?  Sometimes we feel good, sometimes we feel bad, sometimes we feel healthy, sometimes we feel sick. I want you to know peace at the core, your True-OneSelf.  Regardless of what is rising and falling, regardless of circumstances, regardless of emotion or thoughts. You'll notice that who you are is already free, that you're already whole. You're already beautiful, my friends. You are already at peace and we can't get to peace. This idea that we have to get somewhere, to do something, to be something, to finally be at happiness and peace is a lie. So today just notice “Am I?”. Just notice that You Are three times. Excellent. “I Am”. In that, you'll start to feel the energy in the beauty of just being. And then that you'll notice that right now you're already One with whole. So let's drop for a little while, you know? Just give up on this idea and the concept of your Higher Self for a little while. You may have read some great books about it, it may have served you to some degree, but here I'm saying – “Hey, drop this notion for a little bit, it kind of exists a lot in this idea of higher and lower in separation and try on just recognizing the simple sense that You Are. Recognize this witness perspective and know that your True-OneSelf is that which is already whole and one with everything, it is who you really are in your core. Who am I? I Am. Notice –“I Am”.  It's been great, I'm here to serve you. If you have any questions and anything to do with spirituality, awakening, meditation, please leave some comments below, we'll be getting back to you. Pleasure always to serve you.  Until next time here's to living an awake life from your True-Oneself and into The Greatest Expression of You!   [Music]     Hey everyone, it’s Brian Marc. Did you like that episode? If you did, you can do three things right now to continue your journey. First, you can subscribe right here to my channel, which I hope you will,  so I can keep sending you videos on a weekly basis to help transform your life. Second, you can go to my website BrianMarc.com and sign up for my newsletter, so that I can send you free offers, free products, free programs, updates on my events, podcasts and basically everything that we don't do on my channel. Here you can find the link to BrianMarc.com in the description below. Third, if you want to go deeper on living inner peace and freedom, then register to attend my latest seminar for free by clicking on the link right here.  I look forward to seeing you in the next video. Be sure to hit subscribe for weekly videos and click on the button to register for the free seminar. Now, here's to living awake life from your True-OneSelf and into The Greatest Expression of You!

Ken Singer, managing director of the Center for Entrepreneurship and Technology at UC Berkeley, discusses his role in Skydeck, the start-up accelerator, and his own background as an entrepreneur in part two of this two part series on entrpreneurshipTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness of biweekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley celebrating bay area innovator. Good afternoon. This is your host, Vanessa ing. Two weeks ago we learned about skydeck and the Berkeley method of entrepreneurship from Equinox. Did you founding director of the Center for Entrepreneurship and technology at UC Berkeley, otherwise known as the CET. [00:00:30] Joining us today is Ken Singer, Managing Director of the CET. Today we'll learn more about how skydeck helps to develop Berkeley's entrepreneurial culture. Thank you for joining us, Ken. So just in case some of our listeners weren't able to tune in two weeks ago. What is skydeck? Speaker 2:Yes. A skydeck is a joint venture between three big groups on campus. The College of Engineering, which is the, the school that I work for and [00:01:00] the business school, Haas business school, and the vice chancellor of research and few years ago the deans and the vice chancellor got together and realized we had a missed opportunity in entrepreneurship, that we should have a a coordinated effort in facilitating and developing startups that are popping up all over campus. You know, we all have different skillsets and different kinds of strengths that we can contribute to the growth of [00:01:30] small companies. And, um, while we were seeing Stanford and several other universities make inroads by having, um, it seemed to be a more collective effort that it only made sense for us to do the same thing and pulled together a brand that was Berkeley wide, right. Berkeley campus wide rather than just in everyone's different colleges. Speaker 1:Could you tell us more about your relation to skydeck? Speaker 2:So I s I started, um, I started working [00:02:00] at, at Berkeley about eight years ago as an instructor for the mobile applications course. It was the first class that they did taught in that and I was running a startup at the time and two years ago the startup was sold and I got, was pretty exhausted. It was five years of just 24, seven working. And I thought, well, what if I go back to the university, maybe teach a little bit more and just kind of take a breather. And, uh, in talking to ECLAC, he said, hey, actually we're looking for someone [00:02:30] who might be people to head up the CET, uh, because I'm moving into developing more programs. And so he brought me in and we became co-directors of the CET two years ago and they had just started skydeck around that. And that was the first, I think, cohort of teams that had gone into skydeck. Speaker 2:And, um, and so I was there kind of at the beginning to help form some of the programmatic elements of how teams might be selected. We at CET were, were [00:03:00] we're, we're, we're partners with skydeck in many ways, one of which is we share resources, we share mentors. But what we also do is we feed teams up to skydeck. So a lot of our teams from CET, which were part of the engineering school. So most of our teams are our heavy engineering based. So some, uh, some devices, some, uh, research based, uh, algorithm stuff, you know, some applications. But [00:03:30] a lot of it is heavy, heavy research based and the teams that have come up with those concepts or those products need a little bit more help before they are ready for skydeck. Right. So a lot of the business school students, they already know how a terms sheet should look like. Speaker 2:They already know what negotiations should sound like. The, they've had some of that training. In fact, most business school students have had business experience. They're back at school, right? But most of our engineers that [00:04:00] their undergrads of course have oftentimes never worked before. And if they're graduate students, they've gone through the whole track where they've never really been an industry. So they, they, they themselves have not had much industry experience. So what we do is we put them through a, what we call an incubator, which is venture lab and venture lab is Kinda like Kinda like your, um, what does that first five kind of head start program for [00:04:30] engineering-based startups where we help you learn how to hire and fire people on your team. Cause many of these people haven't even been hired before, right? Because they've never been in an industry. We help them talk to investors, how to find them, how to talk to them. Speaker 2:We also help them find first customers or how to even talk to a customer, how to even look at a customer. Cause they'll, they'll use the name, hey we want to sell to apple. They don't realize there are multiple groups at apple, [00:05:00] different people who have different agendas that you need to find the right person who will be an advocate. So they don't even fundamentally understand the, the, the challenges ahead of them in some of the things that they absolutely have to master. So what we do is in venture lab and they stay for anywhere between three to six months. We help them through those elements, get used to those, those activities before the ones that are ready, we graduate them up to Skydeck and they perform much better [00:05:30] when they get get up to skydeck cause they're ready for what Skydeck, which we consider a skydeck and accelerator. Speaker 2:And what that means is that a team is pretty well formed. So they know who, what everyone is doing on the co in the company, there's no real hole in the company. It's a strong fundable team. They have a product, they know what their product market fit is, they know who the customers are. They have probably a dozen or so customers and [00:06:00] they know how their customers purchased product and they're there really to fundraise and, and grow. And so what you'll see with a lot of teams up there, they've got really strong presentations, really sharp pitches. They know how to sell their product. They also know their market extremely well and now they're trying to find the right mechanism of for growth. And that could be the right partner that can fund their growth or the right venture capital firm that can fund their [00:06:30] expansion. So it's really for more mature teams that have gone through, you know, they've gone through the ropes either through venture lab or through other means, but they, they tend to be well positioned to get funding and, and grow from there. Speaker 1:Could you tell us how skydeck is different from all the other um, hubs and accelerators in the bay area? If I am an entrepreneur, how would I know which tech space I should use? Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's been, there's [00:07:00] been this incredible explosion of incubators and accelerators and programs and, and, and whatnot. And, and I'm actually part of several international ones to bring companies from other countries here to be incubated or to get injected with some of the silicon valley culture as they say. And I think they have a list of several thousand of these programs around the world. And just in Berkeley I heard there's something like six or seven and sometimes they're topical, sometimes [00:07:30] they are just physical space and other times they're really programmatic. And um, I would say the difference between them and that will actually, let me tell you what I think they are. Incubators are really, they provide a few things. One is obviously space. Many of them provide space and either at a discount or free. They also by virtue of giving you space, they give you a community of other startups and entrepreneurs [00:08:00] who you, by virtue of being next to them, you'll find ways to collaborate and share information and be able to really fast track your, your path to success by learning from each other. Speaker 2:It's a pure driven educational model, right, where you're learning from each other and that actually I would say from being an entrepreneur myself as the way that I learned a lot is that you build a community of, [00:08:30] of likeminded folks who are dealing with same issues and frankly actually what you end up talking about is not much. It's not really the, the technical parts or the vcs. Even you don't. You do share some information about that, but the vast majority of stuff that you share is around, I am dealing with some serious stress right now. I've got a guy who's about to leave or have IP issues or I'm running out of money and it's not really, can you solve this problem for me? It's just can you listen [00:09:00] to me, have a freak out so that I don't freak out in front of my team? Speaker 2:Right? And maybe you can commiserate with me for a little bit and then I can sound totally with it when I'm talking to, to my team. Because being an entrepreneur, being a founder of a company is by far the loneliest experience you will ever have. Because you cannot share a lot of information with a lot of people, especially the people you're closest to your team. You can't tell them you're running out of money, you can't tell them. You might have some concerns about the IP, [00:09:30] you can't tell them you might be getting sued by apple or by Google or whomever, right? And these things happen, right? And so you end up having to hold back enormous amounts of information because that's the nature of the game. And you have to be careful about what you hold back. But there's certain things that will randomize your team or your effort. Speaker 2:And what drives a startup is momentum. It's this belief that you're, you're going to be doing something great. And so it becomes a very lonely road for, for that founder. So if you have a community [00:10:00] of people who, who get together because they share space, you have that valve, it's a safety valve that just blows steam, you know, and, and keeps you saying it's a really important element of all of that. And if you talk to people who have successfully exited out of these incubators, you'll hear a very common theme about, you know, it was really important that we are, we were in that environment with all these other entrepreneurs, right? And this is why the good incubator's and accelerators like skydeck are extremely careful about [00:10:30] who they select because you, you don't want to introduce a wrong element in there that can cause people to stop sharing with each other across the different companies. Speaker 2:The other thing that, that incubators and accelerators do is that they leveraged the extended network of the people involved in the incubator. So you see these independent incubators pop up in San Francisco and throughout the country. And the person who started it usually has a huge Rolodex of people that they know [00:11:00] from investors to partners, to vendors, to all these folks, lawyers, consultants, all these people who can help your business and they become the connector. Right. What's that? The, the huge advantage that skydeck has is its association with UC Berkeley and UC Berkeley has something like 475,000 alumni that who are currently alive and that can be resources for [00:11:30] companies that are starting up and that's where I think Stanford's done a great job. Where we can do a better job here is that they've engaged their alumni network of course are alumni network tends to be very, very technical as well as well because there's so many that stayed in the bay area. Speaker 2:Um, so that network is what drives the growth of these startups. The more people that you meet who might have relevant connection to your business is equivalent to maybe 15 connections because they can introduce [00:12:00] you to so many more people. So you know skydeck because of its connection with Berkeley is probably these potentially the strongest network that you can have. Because it's not just Jeff Burton who runs Skydeck, who's network you're going to be tapping. And by the way, he's a Stanford Grad, right? And he's such a huge advocate for this program at Berkeley. But you're also tapping the networks of all of the deans, all of the executives, the professors, [00:12:30] all the people who want to give back to Berkeley. And we have tons of people who come back who want to help smart, small companies. Those people become your resource that you can't buy. You just can't buy access like that. That's something that you have to be a part of in order to get access to. Speaker 1:It does seem like Berkeley has a very strong alumni network, but a lot of the national press seems to focus on Stanford and its ability to produce entrepreneurs [00:13:00] with great commercial innovations. Why do you think this is the case? Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, I can take you back as I was, I was a history major. So I like looking at this in a chronological and historical way. And actually it's both historical and geographic. So if you look at Berkeley, Berkeley abuts a hill. And so growth potential for Berkeley for companies that might sprout up around the campus are fairly limited. And that happened [00:13:30] actually fairly early because after World War II, the East Bay exploded, you know, um, and during World War Two, so, uh, there wasn't much room for growth, you know, for, for cheap space. And if you look at Stanford, it, there is a reason why they call it the farm is that there's a lot of, there was a lot of space, not so much anymore, but back then it was a strawberry fields. So geography had something to be to play into it over the course of the last 50 years. Speaker 2:Right. Because companies could find inexpensive places to, to build their businesses. [00:14:00] But also there was a strategic decision that was made back during World War II. Right? Um, during World War II, the government enlisted several universities to help them develop a weaponry, right? So MIT did a lot of work, um, and so did so did Berkeley, you know, with our role in, in discoveries around nuclear technology. And so Berkeley saddled up with government and got a lot of research grants and a lot of research money. And when you start that, it [00:14:30] just becomes easier to get government money. And Stanford went the other direction. They partnered up with the private industry. And so if you look at who set up shop, literally on their campus, you had HP built literally on their campus, you have Xerox Park, you have now SAP. So you have some of the very largest companies literally on their location. Speaker 2:And that strategy has proven out to be probably the better one. Um, and when you are a [00:15:00] private university, you get to make a lot of decisions faster. And I think you're also allowed to make some more mistakes because you know, you're afforded that luxury of, of changing course and, and try new things. So, um, you know, with those two things, Stanford was able to grow very quickly with these, you know, other companies that were built around their campus with their professors, with their students, and it was [00:15:30] also in the company's best interest to promote themselves. And if you think about government research, it's really not in the government's research agenda to promote, you know, on the scale that small, large companies do. Um, what they've been successful at, especially if some things have military application, they don't really want to let people know. So that, that's kind of what I think has created that disconnect between what Stanford now represents and what Berkeley, the, the, [00:16:00] the lack of a PR engine that Berkeley has had. Speaker 2:And you know, with, with the way that these communities work, you can't just be the only one talking about how great you are. You need to have other people talk about you. And when you have thousands of companies down, you know, Google and Yahoo have that all and Cisco and, and sun that spun out of, of the Stanford campus. And of course Berkeley has a role in Sun as well, but you know, when it came out of, out of Stanford, they talk about [00:16:30] that and they end up promoting a, that campus by virtue of, of, of them promoting themselves. Speaker 1:You're listening to method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley. Joining us today is Ken Singer, Managing Director of the Center for Entrepreneurship and technology at UC Berkeley. You mentioned earlier that Stanford's strategy of partnering with Industry ultimately proved to be the better method. What do you mean by that? [00:17:00] Are The CET and skydeck part of an effort to emulate Stanford's entrepreneurial direction? Speaker 2:Yeah, so I, I would, I would correct my previous statement. I do, I wouldn't say that it's better. I think it was more effective in achieving some of the goals that, that I'm sure Stanford had, which was to become the nexus of, of startups and innovation. And, and Berkeley, I would say is on par. If you were to look at just the kinds of innovation that comes off of the Berkeley, uh, Lawrence Berkeley [00:17:30] labs and within our own campus here, but we don't have the same kind of marketing machine or the, or the kind of, um, push towards promoting it. So it's, um, it's, it's different. And this is, if you look at the reputations, and in fact I just have recently talked to some students are trying to figure out whether they should go to Berkeley or to Stanford. And the pitch that they get from Stanford is very much around, hey, we have an entrepreneurial community here. Speaker 2:Everyone's [00:18:00] doing a startup. And you know, you'll, you'll love that cause this is what, uh, what real researchers do. And, and you know, Berkeley is great academically, it's great, but that they produce professors and researchers. And I heard, I've heard that a couple of times now from students who have gotten that, that pitch and to some degree they're, they're right, right? They're right. That Berkeley does produce professors and researchers, but they are world-class that turn around and create companies like Marvell and cadence and, and [00:18:30] companies that you might not be familiar with, but there are multibillion dollar businesses that power every, virtually every machine that you use, right. If you use up in the bay area. Okay. Yeah. Right. So if you use anything with a chip in it, um, other than a potato chip, you're, you're dealing with something that was designed by Kate on Caden software. Speaker 2:Right. We don't know that because many people don't know that because Berkeley oftentimes does the kind of research and the kind of of applications [00:19:00] that aren't necessarily sexy, but they're foundational and so everyone touches them. You just don't necessarily know. You do. So earlier you mentioned that you, uh, had been a history major. I was wondering if you could speak a little about that and then tell us more about your background and how you got here. Yeah. So I, uh, so I grew up in, in the Seattle area and um, had always wanted to be a, a microbiologist. I always wanted to do some research where I could some somehow have an impact. And [00:19:30] My mother was an English teacher, so I ended up coming to Berkeley as a dual major between English and microbiology. And I quickly lost the love of microbiology cause in my classes it was mostly premed students who didn't necessarily like the material, but they're there to, to get good grades. Speaker 2:And I wanted to be around people who I could have interesting conversations with. Right. And where I could find that was in my history courses that I took and I, I took a few too many actually, [00:20:00] and realized in order for me to graduate on time, I would end up having to be a history major. And um, yeah, that's, that's poor planning. But, uh, it was felicitous because I learned an enormous amount. Yeah. And every, it's funny because I always get the first day of class, I teach several classes every year in the engineering school and, and it's a multidisciplinary course. So I have students from, from Haas, I have students from the humanities, but half of them are engineers of some flavor. And I [00:20:30] always get that question from someone who has pulled up their iPad or their their computer and Google searched my bio and there's one hand that goes up and says, um, so I noticed that you were a history major at, at Berkeley. Speaker 2:Uh, can you tell us more about that? Or the braver ones will say, hey, can you tell us how that applies to entrepreneurship? Which would they really mean is how are you qualified to teach me today? Right? Which is a classic Berkeley, you know, it's a classic [00:21:00] Berkeley thing for students to do that. I, I'm used to it. And so what I tell my students is that history is not what you might think it is, which most students, because of AP tests and because of the way we teach thinks, think that it's a string of, of facts and string of dates and people to memorize and wars and all of these things that are just something that you have to, to memorize and get tested for. And what I tell them is if [00:21:30] you take a really good history course, you find out very quickly that history is not about these things. Speaker 2:History is about decisions. History doesn't exist in a vacuum. It actually can only exist when there's human beings involved. That is actually the definition of history. Every day as an entrepreneur, you do maybe 50 to 60 decisions of which three or four are so consequential. If you make the wrong one, your company might die. Right? And so if you've spent years [00:22:00] studying what goes into a decision, what are the consequences, what are the unintended consequences? What are the things that you might not even know might be exogenous things that affect a decision. If you spent years analyzing that stuff, you become very comfortable making calculated decisions that hopefully will be good ones and you're comfortable with that. And so I tell my students, if they haven't studied history, they haven't studied decision making and they're going to [00:22:30] be pretty far behind when they need to make a couple of really key ones in their startup that usually shuts them up. Speaker 2:Could you tell us a little bit about your background in entrepreneurship? So I came to Berkeley as, as I mentioned before, completely planning to do something different. And in 1999, the Internet bubble was still quite, quite huge. It Ha it was still expanding. And I sat down with a couple of friends [00:23:00] and we just started kicking around some ideas and it just kind of rolled down the hill and we started a company, raised a bunch of money. And before I knew it, I turned around and realized I was doing a startup and I'd quit school and, and, and headed down this career path that, that I look back now and go, that's insane. I was 1920. I couldn't even run a car in Germany as I was, as I found out, as I was trying to go to a meeting that was not possible. So, uh, [00:23:30] you know, it just kind of happened I think by the luck of the draw of being the right in the right place at the right time. Speaker 2:You know, you're in the bay area, you're around other people who are innovative and, and, and interested in starting something. And also my father was an entrepreneur. He had started his own company, his of consulting business for, for, for banks. But uh, so it wasn't really foreign in my, in my family to do something like this. And actually they are fairly supportive of me doing that. They were one of the investors in [00:24:00] that first company, which, uh, didn't make money. We ended up selling the remnants of that company to, to a company in Singapore, but learned an enormous amount during that process. And once you've gone through it, it's really difficult to do something else. You know, I'm one of those people who is curious about everything and if you're curious about everything, there's kind of two paths for you. Either you become a museum curator or a professor, which I didn't have the, uh, the patients for that path. Speaker 2:[00:24:30] But, uh, the other thing is to be a consummate tinker and be an entrepreneur because as an entrepreneur, you don't just do technology stuff. If you're tech entrepreneur, it's not just building product. But it's also working with customers. It's also working with finance, it's working with legal, it's working with patents and and conferences and marketing and all the elements that go into making a company fire up all the different [00:25:00] parts of your brain. And it's all interesting. It's all interesting to see how they're all connected. And if you're a systems thinker like I am I, it's just really fascinating how, you know, you pull a string over here and marketing and suddenly product changes, right? You change a little bit on the product and suddenly customers change the type of customers who come to you. And it's just kind of this game of, I was just trying to describe this to someone. Speaker 2:It's like a game of Kerplunk, right? You've got a bunch of marbles on top of this things and you pull different things and suddenly for whatever reason, that last thing that you pulled out and made [00:25:30] everything collapsed. But why was it just that last one? Right? So it's really fascinating to me to seal all those kinds of things. And so I was driven to entrepreneurship and startups. Part of it was because of time and place, but I think I'm well suited for it because of this natural curiosity that I had. Could you tell us about some notable startups that skydeck has helped accelerate? Yeah, so we've had a few that have recently got funded, uh, you know, small, small amounts that pre series a, [00:26:00] we have one company called Lilly and they were two guys who are in my mobile class a few years ago were actually my big data class. Speaker 2:They created a, an indicis outside of of the course. They created a drone company, so that's a bit scary. But what they did was they put a camera on it and a sensor so that it follows you while you're doing extreme sports. So you know you've got the, the GoPro, but it's your, it's very solid cystic, right? It's from your [00:26:30] standpoint, it's where you're jumping off of something. This thing is actually watching you as if you're having an out of body experience. So you can watch yourself do this stuff as if you're an observer. And a, they recently got some and they didn't know each other until my class. One was a business student and the other one was an engineer. And in our, in our class they, they met and now they're best friends and they've created a company together. And I would say that if there was ever a legacy that I would like to leave behind [00:27:00] is that I created an environment in which people who wouldn't have typically met or collaborated found a venue to do that and some really cool, amazing things happen there that, uh, had an impact. Speaker 2:Right. That that would be for me, what I would love to leave behind at Berkeley, we've got a couple others that are earlier stage that we're really proud of. If they're successful, it will be a huge deal. We have one in cancer research and [00:27:30] these guys are, one is a researcher, the other one is a business major. They're called XL bio. And what they discovered was that metastasizing cancer cells are very difficult to replicate out of the lab. Other cells you can replicate outside the outside of the body, right? And um, and metastasizing cancer cells, if you're familiar with it, spread very quickly. And you might have a few attempts at chemo before you know, it ravages your body. [00:28:00] So you gotta get that Chemo right? But you know, chemo is very individual, right? It's, it might work for one person and it might not work for another. Speaker 2:And so what doctors typically do is they find that the chemo that they think would work on you, and that's just based on the population, it works on the highest percentage of people, they'll try that on you. That's the logic they gave go through to figure out what chemo to use. So what these guys have found was they could get metastasizing cancer to replicate outside [00:28:30] the body. They discovered a way to do that and now you can test chemo, all the different types of chemo on the cells outside the body to figure out which one will work for you to tailor the chemo to your body, which is amazing because you know, this has an, this has the potential of saving lives. But it also has the potential of making life a little more pleasant for those who don't have a chemo that will work for them. Speaker 2:They don't have to spend their last year destroying their body and feeling [00:29:00] horrible. They just can have, you know, enjoy the last, last year. So if you think about the human impact of some of this research that's going on, it only happens if someone finds a way to commercialize it. And that's the role that we play is to take these amazing things that are happening up on the hill that's happening on campus and helping those researchers and those innovators turn that discovery into something that can impact all of us. That doesn't just [00:29:30] reside in a paper, but that can have a human impact on us. So that's how I think, you know, if I were to look at what we do as a center, I can't tell people that I'm, I'm curing cancer, but I can certainly say that I'm helping people who are trying to cure cancer. Right. And that that's, it's an [inaudible]. Speaker 2:It's good to say it's, it's a good thing to be able to look at your job and say, hey, we're, we're doing something that has that kind of impact. Thanks so much for joining us today. [00:30:00] If people want to get in touch with you, how can they do so? Yes, so there's a couple of ways you can email me. I have an open door policy. It's at 10 dot singer@berkeley.edu so k e n Dot s, I n g e r@berkeley.edu. You can also go to our website, [inaudible] dot berkeley.edu and you can get more information about our programs. Thanks again for joining us today, Ken. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. It was great. Speaker 1:[00:30:30] If you have questions or comments about this show, go to the k a l x website and find method to the madness. Drop us an email. Tune in again, two weeks from now at this same time. Have a wonderful weekend. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.