Podcast appearances and mentions of robert why

You may only know Kellogg’s as the company that makes your favorite cereal. But there is so much more to the company than just delicious treats. Robert Birse is the Head of Global B2B Ecommerce at Kellogg’s, and he has been leading the charge to position Kellogg’s as one of the leaders in creating scalable B2B Ecommerce strategies. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Robert explains all the ways that Kellogg’s is upending traditional Ecommerce strategies in order to help customers find greater success. Using technology like A.I. and machine learning, and by developing a platform that all of their customers and partners can use, Kellogg’s has been pushing the ball forward on bringing small and large businesses into the world of Ecommerce and helping them get the most out of their Ecommerce strategies.  3 Takeaways: A brand like Kellogg’s has the power to up-end the typical Ecommerce strategy. Instead of asking how to get customers to buy more, they ask how they can help their customers sell more. In doing so, their customers and partners become more successful, and it’s a win-win for all parties Change management is important because many of the small businesses Kellogg’s works with have to fundamentally change the way they think about doing business.hey have to rely much more on technology than ever before. But the appetite is there because A.I. and predictive analytics are proving to be critical tools in helping businesses determine what to stock and how to look at consumer behavior B2B Ecommerce is still in its infancy, but there is an appetite for innovation across the board from brands to retailers to distributors. They’re eager to test, iterate and experiment with new technologies in order to create better one-to-one engagement at scale For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Stephanie: Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, your host from Mission.org. Today I'm very excited, we have Robert Birse on the show, the head of Global B2B & B2B2C E-commerce at Kellogg. Rob, how's it going? Robert: It's going great. Thank you very much, from captivity. Stephanie: Yes, yes. How is life in captivity? Robert: Well, I'm thinking about calling Amnesty International, see if they can get me out of here. Stephanie: Well, we were just talking about what life looks like right now, just us eating lots of Cheese-Its on our bed at home, calling into Zoom calls, or maybe that's just me. Maybe that's not you. Robert: No, I think that's a typical picture across the world right now. Stephanie: Yeah, which is okay. Temporarily, it's okay. So, I saw you have a very long history in E-commerce. I think I saw dating back to even early 2000s, right? Robert: I'm afraid it was in the '90s. Stephanie: Oh nice, okay perfect. Well, I would love to hear a bit about your background and what led you into E-commerce. Robert: Sure. Well, I was working for a catalog distributor, so not a distributor of catalog. We use the catalog as our medium to communicate with our customers who were predominantly engineers in factories across Europe. The business that I was responsible for at the time was a small specialist distributor, and we were struggling a little bit to find our position as E-commerce was starting to take more of a role in the consumer engagement or the customer engagement in our case. So we were on the tube and this was the late '90s, and we took a digital transformation, even though digital still wasn't really a bonafide strategy because it was only emerging. The first task we undertook was to create a digital asset library from all the bromides and things that we'd cumulated to support the catalog production. Robert: So we partnered with a startup in London, a bunch of basically college graduates who were trying to create the first digital content management system. And that was more than 20 years ago. So we did that and we started to work to create a digital presence online, starting with static content and then moving into transactional capabilities. It helped transform that little business into something that had a much greater future. So that was my first introduction to digital and then never looked back since to be honest. Stephanie: Oh, that's great. What kind of transformations has your career seen since the starting point in the '90s to now? And what does your role look like now at Kellogg? Robert: Yeah, I mean, I've used digital disruption and innovation in all the roles I've had since that position in the UK to varying degrees of impact. When I joined Allied, and I moved to Texas, we transformed that business collectively from a couple of hundred million to 600 million in a very short period of time. Just really ensuring that we unified the sales channels with the digital channel. In the early '90s, or early 2000s was very popular to Ring-fence E-com as a separate channel, and I felt that was wrong. So when we moved to the US I tried to ensure that the unification happens, so it was the best one to punch we could possibly give our customers, we're always on capability with the human interaction. I have used that principle throughout my career to build success. Robert: Ultimately all the way to Kelloggs where now, I'm using technology to create value for our customers, changing the paradigm that was always traditional in sales engagement of how do I get my customers to buy more? Now the principle behind our E-commerce strategy from a B2B perspective, is how do we enable our customers to sell more? And then we will be the recipients of the downstream benefit in due course, and that's a big change in the approach. Stephanie: So what did your first, maybe like 90 days look like? When you came to Kellogg's and you saw the lay of the land, what were some of the initial things that you were like, we have to do this, or have to shift this? What did you do? Robert: Well, the train was leaving the station when I joined Kellogg and I decided to embark on a pilot, a B2B pilot, in Brazil of all markets, one of the hardest B2B markets in the world. So it was an interesting challenge to ramp up very quickly. Now, thankfully that we're using Salesforce Commerce Cloud as the technology platform, which I was very familiar with. So that was okay, but getting familiar with our business model in Brazil, which was a direct store delivery model was a different beast for me. And then obviously with Portuguese language challenges, it was an interesting 90 days, but it was certainly a massive. You know the saying, jump in the deep end and [inaudible] and that's where I found myself. Stephanie: Thankfully you're still swimming today, which we all are glad about. So what does your day to day look like now? And how would I think about B2B when it comes to Kellogg's? Because from a consumer perspective, I don't really think about what goes on behind the scenes. I just go to my local whole foods. I find my cereals and my RXbars, and I don't think about how it gets there or how maybe it gets to a smaller Mom-and-pop stops. So how do I think about Kellogg's B2B experience and B2B2C experience? Robert: Well, I hope the consumer will start to see how B2B is impacting the shopper experience, not directly but indirectly. So as part of our mission, we're trying to use technology B2B platforms to create a conduit where we can influence, educate, and inform and enable our retail, especially our independent small retailers. Not a frequency store or space in particular, to be better store owners and to create a better in store experience. As well as use some of the modern engagement tactics, such as social media engagement to bring more food traffic to their store from within their community. Therefore, strengthen their business and providing a jumping off point for them to become more successful in the future. Robert: So the consumer should recognize that when they go to the store, the store has always got the product they're expecting to find in the store, and if that product is displayed in a fashion that's compelling and it's positioned next to other products, they well, that would be the perfect combination. Then B2B commerce, modern B2B commerce is starting to have an impact on the buying experience. So that's what goes on behind the scenes, and that's what our vision is built around. Stephanie: Yeah. That is something I never think about, is this product positioned next to another one to make a better, maybe make me buy more. How do you figure out what products should be next to each other? And how do you work with the store owners to ensure that they abide by those rules? To make sure that, maybe not rules, but it'll also help them sell more as well. So how do you work with the store owners to creating a partnership? Robert: Well, in the past, it was always through traditional sales engagement. The Lucas success has always been a principle behind how we've engaged our retailers in using planograms and driving compliance around these planograms and the science behind them has been well understood, and the discipline has been in place for a long time. However, the cost of serving and maintain that relationship at a cadence that we need to continue has become ever more challenging. So digital is helping to change that paradigm and allowing us to go back to the long tail and really start to help our smaller retailers to really become stronger and more effective in their day to day life. So we see things like AI driving the intelligence around product recommendations for a store type, for instance. Robert: So if you are an independent store owner and you are in a rural environment where you are a 1,000 square feet and two the cash registers, that we would like to be able to cluster you with other retailers just like you, do the analysis and determine what you must stock, what you could stock and what you shouldn't stock. And then ensure that we're talking to the owner operator on a cadence that would allow us to then do more of that and offer and recommend as consumers trends change. So we're always ahead of demand, not buying demand in the long tail. Stephanie: How do you stay ahead of demand? What kind of tools and technologies are you using to ensure that you're able to quickly react to consumer buying behaviors or inventory levels for the store owner? How do you stay ahead of those things? Robert: Well, you're giving me way too much credit to say that we're actually ahead of those things, we're aiming to be ahead of these things. So let's make sure that's completely clear and we're being transparent, there's a lot of work to do here. So what we see is the ability to take all that historic purchasing information, and then combine it with social listening to see what consumers are talking about, then plugging in triggers like weather and other influences on buying patterns and then continue to feed machine learning and AI logic to build a picture that is constantly dynamic and changing so that we can then say to the customer, the retailer, "Hey, this product is starting to decline its popularity so we're recommending you start to reduce the inventory you carry. And by the way, this product is gaining popularity and we're going to drive a marketing campaign in your market to promote it. So now it'll become a hot commodity, please accept this recommendation and capitalize on that demand and it will happen in the coming weeks." That's what we're aiming for. Stephanie: Do you see the partners being ready to accept that and wanting to stock the products that you're recommending? Are they trusting your guidance or has it been an uphill battle when it comes to those recommendations? Robert: Well, first of all, the primary segment we're focused on is that high frequency store, independent retailer, a C-store, a convenience store that kind of customer segment, and they've been incredibly underserved for many years now. So any insight that we've given them so far, and the questions we've asked them about would it just be of interest, they've all unanimously said, this is what we've been asking for years, please help me grow my business. So I think the appetite is definitely there. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. How do you set up platforms and systems for these different businesses? Because I could see each one needing something a little bit different. So how do you scale that model to provide the data to each company in a different way, or each, like you said, store in a different way? Robert: Right. It has to be done without human intervention to start with, we cannot be responsible for building an army to support such endeavor. So at Kellogg we're really focused on a single global platform, one ecosystem of applications that will scale globally across markets and channels and the customer segments within these channels, with a lower cost of ownership as we scale it out. So that's the first guiding principle. The second end is, if a machine can do it, we probably shouldn't do it. So everything is going to be machine driven. And then by rewarding the owner operators to complete their profiles, that allows us to capture information like, is your store rural, suburban, or urban, gives us another great data point to then create more effective costuming. Robert: And then in these clusters, the analytics can be very powerful and the machine can then start to communicate through marketing automation on a cadence that we could never possibly imagine before, and then touch them with relevant content that is absolutely pertinent to their business. So I would make a recommendation to you and your store that you're missing these two products, you should this and if you do stock these, we predict that you will make X number of dollars incrementally every year thereafter. And that's very powerful for comparison. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's great. Are there any pitfalls or learnings when going about this partnership model and helping the retail stores that you saw along the way that you would find maybe other companies or brands will need to do this, where you're like, "Hey, we ran into this problem along the way, or this was a big hiccup that other people could probably avoid if you listen to this podcast." Any advice around that? Robert: Well, I think it's going to be the same answer that everybody gives, and that's really focused on education, change management. You're asking people to change their habits. So in emerging markets like Brazil, for us high growth markets, there's a full service that the reps provide to date. And so the store owners are accustomed to doing a particular style of business with us, we're asking them to change that and be more responsive from a digital perspective. Now corporate, for all the bad and sadness that's come with corporate, it has been the catalyst for changing the perspective of many retailers to how they should interact with their brands. So that's been that the silver lining of corporate is it's elevated the position of why B2B could be a very important tool in their growth strategy going forward. And that's changed the perspective of consumers considerably. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a good silver lining. So I saw that you also created a mobile app to reach some of the smaller retail clients. Can you tell me a bit about what problem you were facing and why you thought mobile was the best way to solve that problem? Robert: Well, that's a really easy one is the business tool of choice for small business owners. The internet and the mobile device and companies like Kellogg's are now developing solutions, online solutions that years ago would have been financially out of reach. Now they have all these tools that they can run their business, and that's why mobile is so important to us. Stephanie: Got it. Do you ever feel like you're encumbered by trying to meet your partner obligations or that the experiences maybe can't be what you want them to be because of certain obligations you have with partners? Robert: No, I feel more enabled to be honest, because it's a difficult market. The times are always challenging. So anything that might add value to a relationship, I think it goes a long way to creating a winning business scenario. So don't feel there's any barriers, maybe some adoption challenges that those would have been there regardless. So I feel that there's such a large opportunity to use Ecommerce to change our engagement model, that there're enough partners that have put their hand up and will put their hand up to say, "Yeah, I would love to be part of that because I can see that could create competitive advantage for me and alone I can't do it but in partnership with you, I feel that you could guide us and help us aspire to our own digital endeavors going forward." Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. How do these retail partners keep track of all their other brands? So I'm thinking, if Kellogg's has their website that you would log into and you would look at the recommendations and get your orders and your inventory and all that kind of stuff. How would a retailer keep track of everything else they have in their store too? Is there like a single source that they can rely on or how do they think about that? Robert: So that's a great question, and it's greatly misunderstood. There is no real lifespan for a single application to serve a single brand in a retail environment. Who in their right mind would manage 50 different applications from different brands? So for two different models, I foresee. So in a mature, disciplined distribution based market, such as North America where most of our distribution wholesale partners have a web presence to date with E-commerce capabilities, we will be looking to integrate into that, to improve the experience in that environment. So think about a store within a store concept, and that would be where I would see brands like Kellogg's and others prospering and allowing the retailer to buy across a broad selection of products available from the distributor, but also to technically punch out to reach my Kellogg experience, where they can see their performance plus with their peer group to get the recommendations that we're offering, being informed about trends and product demand and so forth. Robert: And then if they're inclined to confer upon a recommendation we've given them that product order will go back into the distributor environment to be processed in a normal fashion, thereby allowing them to continue to go about buying other products for the store. Now in markets where distribution isn't as well evolved from a digital perspective, then marketplaces become the answer to ensuring that a retailer can go to a marketplace designed for their customer segment, with brands that represent at least 40% of their shelf. So that there's enough for them to do in one execution to not create administration, but to reduce administration in the procurement of product. Stephanie: I got it, that makes sense. How do you think about working with different platforms? You just mentioned marketplaces and I saw when you go on Kellogg's website, you direct people to go on platforms like Amazon and then also CVS and Target. How do you balance working with bigger stores and retail partners, and then also platforms like Amazon within your Kellogg strategy for E-commerce? Robert: Well, there's a lot of room for improvement on both ends, so in the end you're referring to where the large platforms are in play, there's a ton of up side to improve content, to improved recommendations, to really get deeper integration, that we can take all that learning and insight and present it as a more refined offer list dynamic. Obviously the price part architecture element of ensuring that what we're presenting is something that's scalable and profitable for us, as well is a key factor in these relationships at both ends, of course. I would say that they're not mutually exclusive in the sense that, we can operate in two spectrums here. So in the large platform, but also taking that technology and applying it to enable the long tail to prosper. Robert: Monetizing the long tail is actually, a very worthy prize worth unlocking for every CPG company in the world. And I think that's where the glue on your food is to be honest, we do a great job in most cases with our Walmart's, and our Target's and our Amazon's. We don't do a tremendous job today with a smaller, high-frequency stores as an example. Stephanie: Yeah. That long tail does seem really important. How would you advise other CPG brands to engage with those? Like you said, the long tail? Robert: Do you know, I think partnerships are key. The synergistic product from more than one brand that you could curate into a collective offer, there is a lot of power in that. So strengthen in numbers has always been the case. So I think we could really team up better in the industry to make a more powerful proposition to our retailers, that creates greater value, greater economies of scale, and it's easier to adopt. And I think that's what's missing today because everybody is a little nervous about working together, trade secrets and what if the competition find out. But honestly in my entire career, I've always had a hard time just getting our innovation execution done, nevermind, stealing somebody else's in time. So in reality, it will never happen, but there's an insecurity, that's common to human nature, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, I see the same thing in startup world where people don't want to share their ideas and you're like, "Trust me, I've got my own stuff to work on, I'm not trying to steal your idea and build a whole nother startup on top of the stuff that I'm working on. Don't worry." Robert: So true. Stephanie: Have you seen any successes when it comes to those partnerships that you would advise others to think about it this way, when it comes to letting people lower down their guards and allowing them to see this could have benefit for everyone, any successful case studies there? Robert: No, nothing is mature as a case study yet. We're still very much in the embryonic stage of developing this strategy. You can see it though in play from time to time when we do joint ventures with other brands targeting the consumer, to be honest. We did last year, we did a very exciting campaign with cheeses and house wine, that was the box wine company. Stephanie: Oh, tell me more about that? Robert: Well, this one is very interesting and very simple, it was a box wine. The box had to be extended to contain cheeses. Cheese and wine, as you know, is a perfect combination. I personally was just eager to get my hands on a box and, yeah, that morning it went live at nine o'clock and we sold everything in about 40 seconds, I believe. So none of us got any, so the power- Stephanie: You're still on the wait list. Robert: It's never coming back, I don't think. Stephanie: Oh, no. Robert: We have to recover from the demand. Yeah, cheeses doesn't need much help [inaudible] as I said, we can't make enough to meet consumer demand. That's a great example of when you can join forces and just make the proposition more compelling. So I see that playing out in the B2B space as well, as I said before, together we're stronger. Stephanie: Yeah. How do you think about what partnerships are advantageous to have? It seems like it'd be hard, and I could see a lot of brands maybe partnering randomly, and you're like, "Ah, that's not really even helpful to the consumer." So how would you think about striking up new partnerships in a way that's mutually beneficial to both brands and is good for a longer term strategy? Robert: Well, it depends what your ambition is, of course. So there'll be different solutions for different approaches. I mean, obviously, we wouldn't partner with a Benjamin Moore Paint brand, there's no correlation. So within the food industry taking snacks as an example, the beverage industry is the perfect partner, beer, wine, alcohol, Cheez-It and Pringles, it's a perfect combination. So the same as for cereal, milk and yogurt, it's a perfect combination. So there's definitely groupings of product where you can see which brands aspire to the same vision, it would be critically important as well. So just because the product has synergy doesn't mean that the strategy is there, you can't force a round peg into a square hole. Robert: So my first checkbox criteria would be, is the digital ambition the same? Do both companies, or do three or four companies aspire to own breakfast across all hospitality in the world? Well, if we do, then we've got a common objective. Now, how do we go about it together is the next step. Stephanie: That's great. It seems like the larger brands too, might have to give a little bit more, or provide a little bit more help to the smaller brands, if they're picking someone like ... If you were partnering with a smaller wine company or something, it seems like you might have to be ready to do maybe the 80% of the heavy lifting, because maybe they don't have the resources or the budget. Is that kind of how you're seeing things play out when you pick partners, that sometimes Kellogg's has to do the heavier lifting to create a partnership? Robert: Yeah. Even with partners with some of the bigger brands we're actually willing to do the heavy lifting. We made a decision with our leadership to own our destiny in this space. So it's from top to bottom, and I do see that small startups in an incubator fashion, we would be a great big brother to get products launched. And we have our own startup business within Kellogg's where we're giving grants to products like Leaf Jerky and so forth, which is a different plant-based product that challenges the status quo of what we felt like Jerky was in the past. So yeah, I could see that there could be a market verticals that we would go after, there might be health club awaited before we joined the Kohler, we were talking about RXbars and examples. Robert: So predominantly through health clubs and so forth, why not probiotic yogurts? Why not non-alcohol based beer? So why not the combination? All plays well to the health industry, so there might be some small companies in there that are pioneering excellent alternatives that we would be, I think, more than delighted to partner with them. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's great. So Kellogg's is over, they've been around for over a 100 years, right? Since 1906, is that correct? Robert: Yeah, it's correct. Stephanie: Okay. Oh, good memory, Stephanie. So with a company that's been around for that long, how do you think about making sure that the company continues to innovate? Like you said, you have a startup within Kellogg's, what do you see within that startup? What kind of products do you see coming out of that? And would you advise a lot of other large companies to also put on their startup hat to compete with these B2C companies that are all popping up everywhere? Robert: Well, change has become the new norm. I mean, taking COVID aside, people want to taste new things, that is my impression, anyway. I think, there's an appetite for new and more challenging flavors and so forth. So in the food industry, I can see that the innovation around our product offers is actually critical for success. But the innovation doesn't stop there though, we have to be more innovative in how we present these products, how we ensure these products create value other than just in flavor, but in health and wellbeing as well. So Kellogg has always been a very health driven business right from its inception, that continues to be an underpinning philosophy of our company. I see a great deal of passion in our business and investment for innovation. It's not just digital, it's all down to food, not innovation kitchens and the chefs we have, they're inspired to really go find new products. Robert: We do a great job of creating an incubator within our business by constantly searching for ideas within our employee base around what we could do with Kellogg products. So I think you look inwards and outwards there's no stone not worth turning over to find out an idea about a new product. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. When you mentioned marketing earlier, it seems like you would have to market to two different audiences. You have to market to your retail partners and then also to the consumers, how do you go about, maybe within your platform where you're selling to retailers, do you market differently than how you do to consumers? Or how do you think about that? Robert: Well, so now you bring up an interesting subject in the sense that direct to consumer, which could in sense be side by side be B2B, does provide you with an awesome channel to test the appeal of new product, and affordable cost if you engineered it appropriately so that you've got something you can stand up and tear it down quite quickly without major investment. So I don't know if you would really want to continually be knocking on the door of your retailers with new products without having some good market data behind it, to say that this will sell. And so testing that product in market that becomes a critical part of the evolution of the go to market strategy. So I see traffic consumer testing being interesting proposition for companies like Kellogg's going forward. Stephanie: Got it. So you test the product with a market first, and then you go to your partners and say, "Hey, a lot of people like this, you should also put this in your store?" Robert: Absolutely, because that's where we get the scale, and then we can then turn on all of our abilities to cross sale and use some of the capabilities we talked to earlier about in the B2B platform, ensuring that our retailers know how to create success with new product. There's another interesting aspect of that too, so if you'd go back to the conversation around the long tail of retail, these companies, these business owners don't have sophisticated inventory management tool. So one of the biggest challenges we're solving for is ensuring that new products, our products we've recommended for that retail when they're placed that they stay. Because we see a lot of occasions where a new product is being placed or our product from the portfolio that they should be adopting, has been taken. Robert: And then a week later has been sold and never replaced because somebody in the evening has just redistributed product on the shelf to complete the look and that position be lost. And so making sure that these products are reordered and reordered again, until they become habitual, their presence is habitual on the shelf is a massive opportunity so it's not about just new product and innovation, it's also about ensuring the stickiness of product they are placing on a shelf. Stephanie: What ways do you engage with your partners to make sure that they, like you say, keep reordering, have you seen any best practices to stay top of mind with these people even if they do excellent and lose a spot in the shelf. They're like, "Oh, hey, this product actually belongs there." How do you go about building those patterns? Robert: Well, there's also technology becoming available from scanning to just constant recognition. So there are solutions coming, they're not particularly affordable today for the segment we've been addressing, which is the high frequency stores segment. So the challenge has been resolved by manpower up until now, and of course, that's not very affordable. It's interesting when you go to markets like India, if you don't show up something else will steal your space. Stephanie: [inaudible 00:32:09]. Robert: I know, so there's a whole bunch of, I must run ... Making sure that you hold onto the shelf space that you've worked so hard to attain. So we're looking at tools like, asking our retailers to take shelfies using the robot cameras and uploading- Stephanie: Shelfie? Tell me more about a shelfie. Robert: So a shelfie is just, the shelf equivalent of your selfie, in the sense that, we're to set challenges for our retailers and say, "Listen, take a shelf of your cereal display." And then we'll match that image to the planet ground that the AI has in its memory, and then give them a score, and that score will then be translated into points, Kellogg points that they can use for purchasing everything from a discount to cleaning services, say for instance, in the future. So one thing happens in this process, is we ask them to do a challenge, before the actually did their pictures there is a pretty good chance they're going to address any gaps on their shelf. So we see it being a little self serving and helping us get a better position in the store, but also then just educating the retail around best practice and reinforcing that practice. So the look of success is getting closer and closer in the package stores within their reach. So that's just one example, I guess. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's a really fun example. Have you seen the rewards program that you have actually really incentivize these retailers to, like you said, take these shelfies and engage with your brand more? Robert: No, again, you gave far too much justice. I talk with authority, but we're still very much in the theory and the testing, the technology is still catching up, but we see rewards and we have a rewards engine built into our platform to date. We haven't really turned it on to its full force yet, but it will be a cornerstone of our strategy. We're looking at gamification rewards and recognition as being a key driver of behavior going forward, and creating the path to best practice. So it will be a constant in our engagement strategy, so at eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, we'll be connecting with an owner operator of a store through WhatsApp or email or text to say, listen, we have a challenge for you, and this challenge is worth a 1,000 Kellogg points. If you go and take that shelfie or if you can tell us, answer this question about the new product you recently stocked, did it sell out, did customers come back and repurchase? Did you get any feedback in any shape or fashion about the flavor? What did they think, and reward them for that first party data insight. Robert: Now, all of a sudden you've got this incredible ability to harvest information that could be invaluable to your R and D teams. At the same time, you've got the opportunity to influence best practice and take the customer on a journey, the customer being the retail owner operator on a journey to become better at their craft, which is super exciting to us. Stephanie: No, that's really awesome. It seems like there'd be room to build a community among these store owners, to all do the challenges together and to talk about best practices. Have you all explored that? Robert: We're exploring it. We're definitely exploring it. So it came from, when we looked at one of our customer's segments being a K through 12 schools starting here in North America, there's a lot of schools that are rural. They're isolated, they don't have large school communities to support them, and there's so many challenges that they face from allergies and health and nutrition, taking food and making education subject matter. All of these things we're looking into to say, okay, so our community together would be again stronger. So connect schools that are similar together and then connect schools that are not similar and let them use our product as a teaching aid. So we aspire, this is long away from happening. Robert: So please don't take this as something that's been executed today, but we can see that sometime in the future, we'll create a syllabus around corn and our cornflakes and how it changes the flavor of patterns in Japan compared to Idaho, and then to schools when their kids are having their breakfast, they can share the differences in the sweetness and so forth because the [inaudible 00:36:46], the climate is different so that the plant takes on a different flavor. So that's a subject that you could turn into a syllabus and education and bring kids together. Yeah, it is a very exciting proposition for us and different from anything we've ever done before. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. And I did not know that flavors around the world would be different. So you definitely taught me something brand new here. Robert: Yeah. We've done a few things at Kellogg's in the office in Chicago where they've taken five or six or seven different sources of cornflakes and put them all in independent bowls unmarked, and then tasted them and people were convinced that sugar had been applied and so forth. And it actually hadn't, it was just that the different produce, produce different flavors and it was quite an epiphany for many of the folks tasting them. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. So when it comes to your B2B platform, what are some of the best capabilities that you're using today that maybe you weren't using a year or two ago? Robert: Again, cornerstone of what I'm trying to do with the B2B platform is create efficiency, and so to create efficiency, the first thing I'm trying to tackle is preventing any waste of time as it pertains to identifying a product. So we are integrating scan into the mobile device, using the mobile device camera, quickly scan that barcode it will take you straight to the product in our platform. So no need to key in, no need to type in the barcode or any keywords that are associated, just quick scan within less than a second you're on the product detail page, and you got a path to purchase with one click. You've got a path to understand your performance versus your peer group with one click. And you've got a path to understand how to sell more by accessing the tools that give you the toolkits that will help you do that. So that's, that's one aspect. Robert: The second aspect is to create value around ensuring that big data is conferred into some form of exportable logic that says that, hey, you are not creating the optimal product assortment. Companies, businesses, stores, like you sell these products successfully, and you're missing revenue as a result of not taking them. So here's a recommendation for these products. Here's the stocking quantity that we believe you should take. And here's a revenue projection based on MSRP from the class that you belong to that. That to me is transformational in so many ways. Stephanie: So are you using AI behind the scenes to create a lot of these recommendations? And do you think a lot of brands are also doing this or is there a lot of room for them to adopt to this technology? Robert: Yeah. AI is the key to success. So we've talked about AI for several years now, and it has really not delivered what it says in the box as of yet, but I am a 100% confident we're getting closer and closer all the time. Anybody that's been getting with AI knows that a lot of teaching into the logic that supports the output, but we're definitely getting closer to being able to use it at scale. What I see in the next year to 24 months will be the ability to then turn on that dynamic, self-sustaining logic that continues to morph as it reads more data and continue to present very tailored recommendations to all of our retailers worldwide, simultaneously because the computing power, obviously, continues to scale at an exponential rate. So it doesn't do necessarily what it needs to do today, but the path is now clear, and I think it's just around the corner, to be honest. Stephanie: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Are you all training your own models for AI? Are you relying on a platform to help you with that? How would you recommend another brand or a larger or smaller brands to start adopting this technology or start experimenting with it? Robert: Well, there's a lot of data scientists that they're all better actor than I am for sure. Stephanie: Sure? Robert: Yeah, I'm absolutely positive. So we've been looking outward to smaller businesses, as well as some of our larger partners to use their experience. Because clearly they see the opportunity too, so I would continue to just make sure that you're using a blend of traditional partnerships and innovative new businesses that come up with some left-field idea about how to resolve one of the challenges. Constantly looking for new ideas from the marketplace, from the periphery where there's new startups starting and looking for an agent, they might have a great concept that we can use. I often equate it to something you might see in a Paris fashion show where coming in the the runway is a presentation that could be quite outrageous, but some form of it we'll get to the high street that will be very popular with the consumer. So a really wild idea can really translate and be boiled down to something that can be a game changer in reality. So never assume that it has to be something that's already in place, but to be open to suggestion and I try and work on a daily basis to be that way. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that's a really good lesson too, to look at tangental markets and industries that could also help influence not only new products, but also E-commerce strategies and just like keeping tabs on what other people are doing, especially startups who are moving quickly and experimenting quickly. How do you keep tabs on companies like that stay up to date with what other people are trying? Robert: Well in prior lives, working for brands that were less recognized, it was on me to continue to search and find, and encourage my team to continue to look for these innovations. Working for a brand like Kellogg's, there's a lot of people come calling. So I'm obviously in a fortunate position to be exposed to a lot of these ideas on a day by day basis from various entrepreneurs. I feel that Kellogg's could prosper from taking on the idea so that role has changed. So I'm very fortunate in that regard to be exposed to great ideas across the industry and not just from within the food and beverage industry as an example but from sending an upturn to, you name it aerospace, there's a lot of innovation going on. Stephanie: What is definition of success for E-commerce? What kind of metrics do you look at? What do you think is successful? Robert: Yes. Okay, so none of the traditional metrics are really going to be of any interest. So for me, the success has moved upstream. So when I think about what does success look like from a digital perspective in B2B, it's very much around ensuring that the retailer is selling more products more effectively and more efficiently, and putting more money in their pocket. So if I can look back and say that all the retailers that we supply our products are prospering as a result of our E-commerce engagement, because we're delivering not just the fundamentals of E-commerce, which is about auto management and everything else that comes with it. That's just table stakes, whatever else comes with it, where we create the value through AI recommendations, access to toolkits, marketing campaigns, guidance on how to create the perfect store. If that's translating into more dollars at the point of sale, then that's what success looks like to B2B commerce going forward, in my opinion. Stephanie: Yeah. It seems like that partnership and education is really important in B2B, have you guys seen success with doing that? Robert: Well, again, I wish I had something much more tangible to give you in terms of the successful metrics. This is still ground zero, we're still very much in day one of our B2B engagement. I think you will find that modern B2B is still in day one globally across both industries. So there's still a lot of learning, a lot of testing, a lot of refinement to do, but the appetite is there. When I talk to other brands, they feel the same way about how we can harness technology to create value. The retailers I've talked to they are hungry, and so is our distributor and wholesaler partners too, to participate in this new era of one-on-one engagement at a scale that's affordable and on a cadence that has never been achievable before. Just that combination of menu items is really driving the hunger to get to that point quicker. Robert: I wish I had to go quicker, we're definitely trying to get there quicker, but it just takes time to build. And so ask me again in six or 12 months, and I'll be in a far stronger position to give you a better answer. Stephanie: Oh, you've just invited yourself around two. So with things changing so quickly, are there any new or emerging digital channels that you all are focused on or trying out? Robert: Again, comes back to just watching and keeping an eye on how things are changing, an example would be, for instance, say WhatsApp for instance. So WhatsApp starts life as a messaging tool, becomes incredibly popular worldwide, supplanting email, phone, texting everything. Now WhatsApp is developing your online ordering capability that will potentially change the trajectory of B2B commerce. So we're watching it very, very carefully, but there's a caveat, there's so much low hanging fruit in just doing what we already know, we can do better in B2B commerce. The WhatsApp example would be a very shiny object while we still need to continue to look to shop opportunities, we need to temper our enthusiasm to be distracted, it can be a distraction. We know that there's enough revenue potential just executing our primary mission without chasing rabbits down holes. Robert: I don't want to be the anti-innovator, but there's got to be a balance. So I use three words to caution myself, stop, better and clever. Stop doing things that create no value. Identify what you do well, but do it better. And say Friday afternoon is for the clever things. So Friday afternoons are dedicated to it, but don't let it become all consuming and that's how I approach this. Stephanie: That's great. That's a really good lesson, Friday afternoons with a beer maybe then you're even more creative, right? Robert: Why not? Yeah, certainly, my wine consumption during COVID is gone up tremendously. Stephanie: I think everyone else. So are there any B2B commerce trends that you're excited about that are coming down over the next couple, well, maybe even in the next year? Robert: Well, I just think the fact that the chatter around B2B has climbed exponentially in the last three or four months, is exciting. I'm super excited about what machine learning can do for scale in just enabling us to do the value added services that we've aspire to do, but couldn't execute because of the cost. So these two elements that B2B is becoming a cornerstone of business strategy, and it's not seeming to be as a poor cousin of B2C, B2B can be sexy. We're taking all of the goodness from the user experience and applying it, but then with this logic, that's data driven it's hard to turn down when we recommend products to a particular owner operator that I've got a revenue projection associated with them, that's a hard proposition. Plus we're giving them an award for accepting the recommendation. If that recommendation comes and was close to our prediction, then I think conversion could be a 100% going forward. Robert: Now in digital, we usually have 2% conversion and an action was great, a 100% conversion, wow, that's perfect execution. What does that do to the industry? Truly transformational. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. So when it comes to implementing technology and stuff, because I think, like you said, a lot of people and a lot of platforms are focusing on B2B now, it is a new player to look at where B2C was maybe the sexier area before. How would you advise other companies to think about onboarding new tech technologies and tools in a way that sets them up for longterm success? Robert: Well, first of all, think scrappy. You can't innovate with the mindset of perfection. Large companies, I think suffer more than small companies, of course, there's a procedure and there's an ROI calculation, and there's a certain set of expectations. Especially when you're dealing with technology that can't quite deliver on the initial promise, but you have a fairly competent perspective on it, we'll get there. So you have to be a little ashamed of what you take into market, because quite frankly, in my experience, you see the flaws, whereas the target audience does not. They see something different, something value added, they know it's a work in progress, and they can see it resolves a pain point. It removes all of the inadequacies of what you didn't do as a result of getting to market quicker and testing a reaction. So that would be my recommendation. Feel a little ashamed, to be a little ashamed about what you go to market with initially. Stephanie: So is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to cover before we move on to the lightning round? Robert: Oh, no, I didn't know there was going to be a lightning round. Stephanie: Yes. There's a lightening round. Robert: That's a little scary. Stephanie: Yeah, anything high level, E-commerce trends, the industry that you're like, "Man, I really wish Stephanie asked this question and she just didn't." Robert: No, I don't think so. I think we've covered off the fact that, I think the biggest thing that's missing in the industry is that more collaboration. I think collaboration is going to be a game changer in terms of driving success. So that's what I'm seeking to build through networking and working with other brands to try and find some common ground we can explore in. So if anybody is interested, please reach out to me and I'll be happy to partner. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's great. All right. So the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a question and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Rob? Robert: No. Okay, I am. Stephanie: All right. You're ready. What's up next in your cereal bowl? Robert: Oh my God. No, Scott's, it should be porridge, but it isn't. I like porridge, I'm a diehard Frosties guy. I don't know, there's not a bad time in a day to consume Frosties, so that's what's always in my cereal bowl. Stephanie: I agree. It's a delicious choice. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Robert: Netflix, I just finished watching Altered Carbon and it was a book that I'd read, three books I'd read many, many years ago. And it was actually a really good rendition of the novel. So I thought it's Sci-fi is very forward looking, it's probably what you'd expect me to watch, but I thought I enjoyed that series. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds great. What's up next on your podcast list or audible? Robert: Yeah, so podcast, during COVID, I mean, I listen to a lot of podcasts, especially at nighttime and I've started to rediscover Vinyl. So I've become a bit of a pseudo audio file or want to be, at least I fought the big stuff, but I'm working my way into. So I started to listen to Vinyl's audio file podcasts, which have been fantastically interesting, but suddenly they're talking about technology I can't afford or justify. My wife keeps a very close eye on me, so sorry- Stephanie: Oh, man, so rude of her. Robert: I know terrible, isn't? But logical, she saves me from myself. Stephanie: That's good. Yeah, that's really fun. Well, if you were to have a guest on a podcast of your own, so if you were to have The Robert's podcast and you want to bring on your first guest, who would you bring and why? Robert: Oh, that's easy. That's easy. I am a big soccer fan from the UK. And one of my idols is Alex Ferguson. I would love him to be my first case on a podcast. He has such great insight into leadership, management, the stories he has. He would be, there's an entire encyclopedia of subjects we could discuss, and he's an idol of mine. Stephanie: That'd be a fun one. I would listen to your podcast. All right. The last hard question. What one thing will have the biggest impact on E-commerce in the next year? Robert: One thing, I think, changing the culture within companies to really embrace innovation, not to necessarily wipe the investment and make a net positive operating gain in the short term but to be more risk orientated. I see a lot of challenges around investment strategies and payback periods and so forth, and it really does slow down our ability to go to market. So if we can get to a point where there's an acceptable investment tolerance, and that will obviously vary by company size and profitability, then I'd like to see more about an entrepreneurial approach to taking that startup fund internally, and going to market with it, improving success or a failure. In Kellogg's we've done a tremendous job recently of celebrating failures. Robert: We've even have an award, for the peace of the award for failure. So it's a transformation that's underway, but we still have to get more comfortable with capital investment that can be used to experiment rather than the business case that supports it longterm, which will come, that will come when we determine what the metrics are or what the levers that work that can be expanded upon and so forth. So that's what I'm looking for. Stephanie: I love it. You are a lightning round expert, so nice job. Well, it's been a blast having you on the show, where can people learn more about you and Kellogg's? Robert: Well, they can see my profile on LinkedIn, obviously, I'm not a big social media user today. So reach out to me through LinkedIn and I'll be happy to engage. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show, Rob, it's been a blast and we will have to bring you back since we have an invitation now for round two, we'll have to bring you back in the future. Robert: That was a mistake, wasn't it? Stephanie: No mistake, we'll have even more fun then. Robert: I look forward to it. Thank you very much for having me on. It's a great pleasure. Stephanie: Thanks.

Men and Women. How different are men and women from one another? What about the research on the differences between men's and women's brains? How does this play out in behavior?What you need to know first!You'll hear fascinating perspectives from today's guest, so I've opened this episode with some actual, researched facts about the differences in the brains of men and women. You might be surprised what this high-level, long-term research from Stanford University.When you look at all the information on the differences between the brains of men and women, you'll see everything from "there is no difference" to "there are huge differences." I decided to look to well-regarded studies to bring you a whole lot of well-documented differences in my introduction to the show.GUEST: Robert Manni. Host of Guy's Guy Radio, Novelist, Former CEO My guest today, Robert Manni, is the host of Guy's Guy Radio, and author of The Guys' Guy's Guide to Love, praised as the "men's successor to Sex and the City." That book has been developed into two feature-length adapted screenplays, a scripted television series, and a series of non-scripted Guy's Guy show concepts.I ask Robert "Why now? What makes a Guy's Guy?" He said:"There's never been a better time for men to be whoever they want to be. Yet, it's also never been less clear who men really are. The Guy's Guy platform redefines and re-imagines modern men with a fresh approach of timely content across media platforms.Whether it's navigating modern dating and relationships, bonding, male friendships, or men's wellness and spirituality, Robert makes it a point to share his insights and possibilities for the modern man's emancipation and success through his "Guy's Guy" lens.Robert's varied background includes writing for and advertising campaigns for many of the world's leading brands, and also being an energy worker with master certifications in Reiki and hypnosis.So, I've asked Robert as many questions as I could that I thought you would want answers to. Look at these highlights...HIGHLIGHTS OF TODAY'S EPISODE:Why is the best time for a man to be whomever he wants to be?Why is a "guy's guy?"How do you think roles are defined in today's world between men and women?Is there a growing chasm between men and women?What about men and emotional IQ?CONNECT WITH ROBERT MANNI:Website: RobertManni.comTwitter: @RobertManniFacebook: Facebook.com/ManniLinkedIn: LinkedIn.comInstagram: Instagram.com/RobertManniCONNECT WITH DR. RHOBERTA SHALER:Website: ForRelationshipHelp.comFacebook: RelationshipHelpDoctorTwitter: Twitter.com/RhobertaShalerLinkedIn: LinkedIn.com/in/RhobertaShalerInstagram: Instagram.com/DrRhobertaShalerWANT TO ASK ME QUESTIONS AND HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO ME IN MY SECRET (Off Facebook) GROUPS?You can. Join my Optimize Circles! CLICK HERE And, get my 21 Steps to Empowered Emotional Savvy via email FREE!Free Passive-Aggressive ChecklistFree Relationship ChecklistSubscribe to Dr. Shaler's newsletter, Tips for RelationshipsFREE ebook: How to Spot a Hijackal®If you have not worked with Dr. Shaler before, you can have your first one-hour session for only $97.#mentoday #communicationwithmen #Phonesinrelationships #RobertKandell #relationshipadvice #TipsForRelationships #Hijackals #toxicpeople #RhobertaShaler #narcissists #borderlines #antisocial #difficultpeople #emotionalabuse #verbalabuse #stoptoleratingabuse #toxicrelationships #manipulation #walkingoneggshells #mentalhealth #emotionalhealth #abuse #narcissisticabuse #boundaries #personalitydisorder #emotionalintimacy #mensbrains #womensbrains #robertmann #guysguyradio #KCOR See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Men and Women. How different are men and women from one another? What about the research on the differences between men's and women's brains? How does this play out in behavior?What you need to know first!You'll hear fascinating perspectives from today's guest, so I've opened this episode with some actual, researched facts about the differences in the brains of men and women. You might be surprised what this high-level, long-term research from Stanford University.When you look at all the information on the differences between the brains of men and women, you'll see everything from "there is no difference" to "there are huge differences." I decided to look to well-regarded studies to bring you a whole lot of well-documented differences in my introduction to the show.GUEST: Robert Manni. Host of Guy's Guy Radio, Novelist, Former CEO My guest today, Robert Manni, is the host of Guy's Guy Radio, and author of The Guys' Guy's Guide to Love, praised as the "men's successor to Sex and the City." That book has been developed into two feature-length adapted screenplays, a scripted television series, and a series of non-scripted Guy's Guy show concepts.I ask Robert "Why now? What makes a Guy's Guy?" He said:"There's never been a better time for men to be whoever they want to be. Yet, it's also never been less clear who men really are. The Guy's Guy platform redefines and re-imagines modern men with a fresh approach of timely content across media platforms.Whether it's navigating modern dating and relationships, bonding, male friendships, or men's wellness and spirituality, Robert makes it a point to share his insights and possibilities for the modern man's emancipation and success through his "Guy's Guy" lens.Robert's varied background includes writing for and advertising campaigns for many of the world's leading brands, and also being an energy worker with master certifications in Reiki and hypnosis.So, I've asked Robert as many questions as I could that I thought you would want answers to. Look at these highlights...HIGHLIGHTS OF TODAY'S EPISODE:Why is the best time for a man to be whomever he wants to be?Why is a "guy's guy?"How do you think roles are defined in today's world between men and women?Is there a growing chasm between men and women?What about men and emotional IQ?CONNECT WITH ROBERT MANNI:Website: RobertManni.comTwitter: @RobertManniFacebook: Facebook.com/ManniLinkedIn: LinkedIn.comInstagram: Instagram.com/RobertManniCONNECT WITH DR. RHOBERTA SHALER:Website: ForRelationshipHelp.comFacebook: RelationshipHelpDoctorTwitter: Twitter.com/RhobertaShalerLinkedIn: LinkedIn.com/in/RhobertaShalerInstagram: Instagram.com/DrRhobertaShalerWANT TO ASK ME QUESTIONS AND HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO ME IN MY SECRET (Off Facebook) GROUPS?You can. Join my Optimize Circles! CLICK HERE And, get my 21 Steps to Empowered Emotional Savvy via email FREE!Free Passive-Aggressive ChecklistFree Relationship ChecklistSubscribe to Dr. Shaler's newsletter, Tips for RelationshipsFREE ebook: How to Spot a Hijackal®If you have not worked with Dr. Shaler before, you can have your first one-hour session for only $97.#mentoday #communicationwithmen #Phonesinrelationships #RobertKandell #relationshipadvice #TipsForRelationships #Hijackals #toxicpeople #RhobertaShaler #narcissists #borderlines #antisocial #difficultpeople #emotionalabuse #verbalabuse #stoptoleratingabuse #toxicrelationships #manipulation #walkingoneggshells #mentalhealth #emotionalhealth #abuse #narcissisticabuse #boundaries #personalitydisorder #emotionalintimacy #mensbrains #womensbrains #robertmann #guysguyradio #KCOR See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Part 2 of Stage Door Players with Robert Egizio Topics include... Musicals and probably better for my ADD- Robert says A$$ twice on air- A little more conversation about the Dunwoody Village Overlay Code- Williams-Burg-Town- Tijuana Flats is the proposed new tenant for 5419 Chamblee Dunwoody Road?- Shout out for Dunwoody California Pizza Kitchen- Please don't mention other real estate agents on my show Robert- Why they are a community theater- We need those free tickets now- Musicals run 4 performances a week- The Jetsons move to Dunwoody- What's Up for the future of Stage Door Once Upon a Ballet plug- The Odd Couple was Robert's real favorite- Theater sounds terrifying for a podcast host- Robert likes Actors Express, Alliance Theater, Georgia Ensemble, and Aurora Theatre- Local theaters have each other's backs- Robert is going to "Publisize the HELL out of this show"- Our placement in this years Dunwoody 4th of July Parade was dead last- We need a Corvette for next year's parade- Rickshaws are fun- We don't have many podcast viewers... or listeners- Matt Woellner's first What's Up Dunwoody shoutout- Does anyone else listen to their own podcasts at x2 speed?- Stephanie Freeman with the Perimeter Chamber coming soon-  About the show: A weekly Dunwoody podcast from Matthew Weber, REALTOR (and part-time Clubhouse Manager at Dunwoody North Driving Club) and Justin Dike, app/web developer (and part-time social director at the Georgetown Recreation Club). Just 2 regular guys talking about Dunwoody. Topics include restaurants, events, police blotter, and anything covered on our What’s Up Dunwoody Facebook Page and conversations borrowed from our Dunwoody Area Restaurant Review Facebook Group.   #DunwoodyRoofTopBar #DunwoodyTrailway #DunwoodyVillageOverhaul   SUBSCRIBE TO THE SHOW iPhone Users click here - https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/whats-up-dunwoody/id1353882818?mt=2 Android Users click here - https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/matthew-weber/whats-up-dunwoody RSS Feed - http://matthewweber.podbean.com/feed   Selling or buying a home in the Atlanta area? Contact Matt the REALTOR and the Dogwood Team at matthewweber@kw.com Looking to take your neighborhood pool to the next level. Check out www.pooldues.com To contact both Matt and Justin, email contact@whatsupdunwoody.com

  Welcome to MR, the podcast for beginners and insiders about the ideas, people and movements who have shaped rhetorical history. I’m Mary Hedengren and a big thanks to the Humanities Media Project at the University of Texas for support for this show. Also thanks to Jacob in the booth. Today, All Hallow’s Eve is upon us and it’s been a long time since I attempted some terrible British accents, which means it’s time for the Mere Rhetoric HALLOWEEN SPECIAL [thunder sounds? Screeching cat? What have you.] But first, some background.   When you’re asked to give a description of what rhetoric is, as we did in our very first episode, What is Rhetoric?, you might say something like, “It’s the use of words to persuade someone,” and you would imagine someone in a toga standing around on a rostom shout-talking at people, but that’s not exactly all rhetoric is. Remember Kenneth Burke’s definition of rhetoric: that we can “influence each other's thinking and behavior through the strategic use of symbols.” Even Aristotle says that rhetoric is about discovering the available means of persuasion. Verbal or alphabetic rhetoric is only one of those available means of persuasion. Visual rhetoric is another.   As you might suspect, visual rhetoric focuses on other kinds of symbols than just words. Visual rhetoricians might interrogate the influence on other people of war posters, cartoons, even the layout of airport security. But visual rhetoric isn’t just about the object of study.   Sonja Foss puts it this way:   Visual rhetoric refers not only to the visual object as a communicative artifact but also to a perspective scholars take on visual imagery or visual data. In this meaning of the term, visual rhetoric constitutes a theoretical perspective that involves the analysis of the symbolic or communicative aspects of visual artifacts. It is a critical-analytical tool or a way of approaching and analyzing visual data that highlights the communicative dimensions of images or objects (305-306)   As you might imagine, visual rhetoric opens up a lot of possiblities for scholars. And those scholars will need more theories of how to approach that those artifacts. Foss herself suggests that critics look first at the elements of the object, then   Kostelnick and Roberts create canons of visual rhetoric [what do you think? The cannon sound again?] Really? As I was saying, these canons of visual rehtoric  parallel the classical canons of rhetoric. these canons can be remembered by the British-inspired acronym CACE-TE, but you have to be creative with your spelling the first C stand for Clarity, or ease of understanding for the reader. A stands for arrangement, how the visual elements are laid out; the second C (I told you that you had to be creative in how you spell CACE) is for concision with nothing extraneous; the E is for emphasis. TE is also spelled poorly: T for tone--sarcastic or sincere, loving or rageful and E for ethos--demonstrating good will for the reader. Clarity, Arrangement, Concision, Emphasis Tone, Ethos: Cake and tea. Do you know what else is british? M. R. James ghost stories. And this year’s story demonstrates the dark side of looking too deeply into visual artifacts. And so, without futher aido, M. R. James’ 1904 story, “The Mezzotint.” Some time ago I believe I had the pleasure of telling you the story of an adventure which happened to a friend of mine by the name of Dennistoun, during his pursuit of objects of art for the museum at Cambridge.   He did not publish his experiences very widely upon his return to England; but they could not fail to become known to a good many of his friends, and among others to the gentleman who at that time presided over an art museum at another University. It was to be expected that the story should make a considerable impression on the mind of a man whose vocation lay in lines similar to Dennistoun’s, and that he should be eager to catch at any explanation of the matter which tended to make it seem improbable that he should ever be called upon to deal with so agitating an emergency. It was, indeed, somewhat consoling to him to reflect that he was not expected to acquire ancient MSS. for his institution; that was the business of the Shelburnian Library. The authorities of that institution might, if they pleased, ransack obscure corners of the Continent for such matters. He was glad to be obliged at the moment to confine his attention to enlarging the already unsurpassed collection of English topographical drawings and engravings possessed by his museum. Yet, as it turned out, even a department so homely and familiar as this may have its dark corners, and to one of these Mr Williams was unexpectedly introduced.   Those who have taken even the most limited interest in the acquisition of topographical pictures are aware that there is one London dealer whose aid is indispensable to their researches. Mr J. W. Britnell publishes at short intervals very admirable catalogues of a large and constantly changing stock of engravings, plans, and old sketches of mansions, churches, and towns in England and Wales. These catalogues were, of course, the ABC of his subject to Mr Williams: but as his museum already contained an enormous accumulation of topographical pictures, he was a regular, rather than a copious, buyer; and he rather looked to Mr Britnell to fill up gaps in the rank and file of his collection than to supply him with rarities.   Now, in February of last year there appeared upon Mr Williams’s desk at the museum a catalogue from Mr Britnell’s emporium, and accompanying it was a typewritten communication from the dealer himself. This latter ran as follows:   Dear Sir,   We beg to call your attention to No. 978 in our accompanying catalogue, which we shall be glad to send on approval.   Yours faithfully,   W. Britnell.   To turn to No. 978 in the accompanying catalogue was with Mr. Williams (as he observed to himself) the work of a moment, and in the place indicated he found the following entry:   978.— Unknown. Interesting mezzotint: View of a manor-house, early part of the century. 15 by 10 inches; black frame. £2 2s.   It was not specially exciting, and the price seemed high. However, as Mr Britnell, who knew his business and his customer, seemed to set store by it, Mr Williams wrote a postcard asking for the article to be sent on approval, along with some other engravings and sketches which appeared in the same catalogue. And so he passed without much excitement of anticipation to the ordinary labours of the day.   A parcel of any kind always arrives a day later than you expect it, and that of Mr Britnell proved, as I believe the right phrase goes, no exception to the rule. It was delivered at the museum by the afternoon post of Saturday, after Mr Williams had left his work, and it was accordingly brought round to his rooms in college by the attendant, in order that he might not have to wait over Sunday before looking through it and returning such of the contents as he did not propose to keep. And here he found it when he came in to tea, with a friend.   The only item with which I am concerned was the rather large, black-framed mezzotint of which I have already quoted the short description given in Mr Britnell’s catalogue. Some more details of it will have to be given, though I cannot hope to put before you the look of the picture as clearly as it is present to my own eye. Very nearly the exact duplicate of it may be seen in a good many old inn parlours, or in the passages of undisturbed country mansions at the present moment. It was a rather indifferent mezzotint, and an indifferent mezzotint is, perhaps, the worst form of engraving known. It presented a full-face view of a not very large manor-house of the last century, with three rows of plain sashed windows with rusticated masonry about them, a parapet with balls or vases at the angles, and a small portico in the centre. On either side were trees, and in front a considerable expanse of lawn. The legend A. W. F. sculpsit was engraved on the narrow margin; and there was no further inscription. The whole thing gave the impression that it was the work of an amateur. What in the world Mr Britnell could mean by affixing the price of £2 2s. to such an object was more than Mr Williams could imagine. He turned it over with a good deal of contempt; upon the back was a paper label, the left-hand half of which had been torn off. All that remained were the ends of two lines of writing; the first had the letters — ngley Hall ; the second,— ssex .   It would, perhaps, be just worth while to identify the place represented, which he could easily do with the help of a gazetteer, and then he would send it back to Mr Britnell, with some remarks reflecting upon the judgement of that gentleman.   He lighted the candles, for it was now dark, made the tea, and supplied the friend with whom he had been playing golf (for I believe the authorities of the University I write of indulge in that pursuit by way of relaxation); and tea was taken to the accompaniment of a discussion which golfing persons can imagine for themselves, but which the conscientious writer has no right to inflict upon any non-golfing persons.   The conclusion arrived at was that certain strokes might have been better, and that in certain emergencies neither player had experienced that amount of luck which a human being has a right to expect. It was now that the friend — let us call him Professor Binks — took up the framed engraving and said:   ‘What’s this place, Williams?’   ‘Just what I am going to try to find out,’ said Williams, going to the shelf for a gazetteer. ‘Look at the back. Somethingley Hall, either in Sussex or Essex. Half the name’s gone, you see. You don’t happen to know it, I suppose?’   ‘It’s from that man Britnell, I suppose, isn’t it?’ said Binks. ‘Is it for the museum?’   ‘Well, I think I should buy it if the price was five shillings,’ said Williams; ‘but for some unearthly reason he wants two guineas for it. I can’t conceive why. It’s a wretched engraving, and there aren’t even any figures to give it life.’   ‘It’s not worth two guineas, I should think,’ said Binks; ‘but I don’t think it’s so badly done. The moonlight seems rather good to me; and I should have thought there were figures, or at least a figure, just on the edge in front.’   ‘Let’s look,’ said Williams. ‘Well, it’s true the light is rather cleverly given. Where’s your figure? Oh, yes! Just the head, in the very front of the picture.’   And indeed there was — hardly more than a black blot on the extreme edge of the engraving — the head of a man or woman, a good deal muffled up, the back turned to the spectator, and looking towards the house.   Williams had not noticed it before.   ‘Still,’ he said, ‘though it’s a cleverer thing than I thought, I can’t spend two guineas of museum money on a picture of a place I don’t know.’   Professor Binks had his work to do, and soon went; and very nearly up to Hall time Williams was engaged in a vain attempt to identify the subject of his picture. ‘If the vowel before the ng had only been left, it would have been easy enough,’ he thought; ‘but as it is, the name may be anything from Guestingley to Langley, and there are many more names ending like this than I thought; and this rotten book has no index of terminations.’   Hall in Mr Williams’s college was at seven. It need not be dwelt upon; the less so as he met there colleagues who had been playing golf during the afternoon, and words with which we have no concern were freely bandied across the table — merely golfing words, I would hasten to explain.   I suppose an hour or more to have been spent in what is called common-room after dinner. Later in the evening some few retired to Williams’s rooms, and I have little doubt that whist was played and tobacco smoked. During a lull in these operations Williams picked up the mezzotint from the table without looking at it, and handed it to a person mildly interested in art, telling him where it had come from, and the other particulars which we already know.   The gentleman took it carelessly, looked at it, then said, in a tone of some interest:   ‘It’s really a very good piece of work, Williams; it has quite a feeling of the romantic period. The light is admirably managed, it seems to me, and the figure, though it’s rather too grotesque, is somehow very impressive.’   ‘Yes, isn’t it?’ said Williams, who was just then busy giving whisky and soda to others of the company, and was unable to come across the room to look at the view again.   It was by this time rather late in the evening, and the visitors were on the move. After they went Williams was obliged to write a letter or two and clear up some odd bits of work. At last, some time past midnight, he was disposed to turn in, and he put out his lamp after lighting his bedroom candle. The picture lay face upwards on the table where the last man who looked at it had put it, and it caught his eye as he turned the lamp down. What he saw made him very nearly drop the candle on the floor, and he declares now if he had been left in the dark at that moment he would have had a fit. But, as that did not happen, he was able to put down the light on the table and take a good look at the picture. It was indubitable — rankly impossible, no doubt, but absolutely certain. In the middle of the lawn in front of the unknown house there was a figure where no figure had been at five o’clock that afternoon. It was crawling on all fours towards the house, and it was muffled in a strange black garment with a white cross on the back.   I do not know what is the ideal course to pursue in a situation of this kind, I can only tell you what Mr Williams did. He took the picture by one corner and carried it across the passage to a second set of rooms which he possessed. There he locked it up in a drawer, sported the doors of both sets of rooms, and retired to bed; but first he wrote out and signed an account of the extraordinary change which the picture had undergone since it had come into his possession.   Sleep visited him rather late; but it was consoling to reflect that the behaviour of the picture did not depend upon his own unsupported testimony. Evidently the man who had looked at it the night before had seen something of the same kind as he had, otherwise he might have been tempted to think that something gravely wrong was happening either to his eyes or his mind. This possibility being fortunately precluded, two matters awaited him on the morrow. He must take stock of the picture very carefully, and call in a witness for the purpose, and he must make a determined effort to ascertain what house it was that was represented. He would therefore ask his neighbour Nisbet to breakfast with him, and he would subsequently spend a morning over the gazetteer.   Nisbet was disengaged, and arrived about 9.20. His host was not quite dressed, I am sorry to say, even at this late hour. During breakfast nothing was said about the mezzotint by Williams, save that he had a picture on which he wished for Nisbet’s opinion. But those who are familiar with University life can picture for themselves the wide and delightful range of subjects over which the conversation of two Fellows of Canterbury College is likely to extend during a Sunday morning breakfast. Hardly a topic was left unchallenged, from golf to lawn-tennis. Yet I am bound to say that Williams was rather distraught; for his interest naturally centred in that very strange picture which was now reposing, face downwards, in the drawer in the room opposite.   The morning pipe was at last lighted, and the moment had arrived for which he looked. With very considerable — almost tremulous — excitement he ran across, unlocked the drawer, and, extracting the picture — still face downwards — ran back, and put it into Nisbet’s hands.   ‘Now,’ he said, ‘Nisbet, I want you to tell me exactly what you see in that picture. Describe it, if you don’t mind, rather minutely. I’ll tell you why afterwards.’   ‘Well,’ said Nisbet, ‘I have here a view of a country-house — English, I presume — by moonlight.’   ‘Moonlight? You’re sure of that?’   ‘Certainly. The moon appears to be on the wane, if you wish for details, and there are clouds in the sky.’   ‘All right. Go on. I’ll swear,’ added Williams in an aside, ‘there was no moon when I saw it first.’   ‘Well, there’s not much more to be said,’ Nisbet continued. ‘The house has one — two — three rows of windows, five in each row, except at the bottom, where there’s a porch instead of the middle one, and —’   ‘But what about figures?’ said Williams, with marked interest.   ‘There aren’t any,’ said Nisbet; ‘but —’   ‘What! No figure on the grass in front?’   ‘Not a thing.’   ‘You’ll swear to that?’   ‘Certainly I will. But there’s just one other thing.’   ‘What?’   ‘Why, one of the windows on the ground-floor — left of the door — is open.’   ‘Is it really so? My goodness! he must have got in,’ said Williams, with great excitement; and he hurried to the back of the sofa on which Nisbet was sitting, and, catching the picture from him, verified the matter for himself.   It was quite true. There was no figure, and there was the open window. Williams, after a moment of speechless surprise, went to the writing-table and scribbled for a short time. Then he brought two papers to Nisbet, and asked him first to sign one — it was his own description of the picture, which you have just heard — and then to read the other which was Williams’s statement written the night before.   ‘What can it all mean?’ said Nisbet.   ‘Exactly,’ said Williams. ‘Well, one thing I must do — or three things, now I think of it. I must find out from Garwood’— this was his last night’s visitor —‘what he saw, and then I must get the thing photographed before it goes further, and then I must find out what the place is.’   ‘I can do the photographing myself,’ said Nisbet, ‘and I will. But, you know, it looks very much as if we were assisting at the working out of a tragedy somewhere. The question is, has it happened already, or is it going to come off? You must find out what the place is. Yes,’ he said, looking at the picture again, ‘I expect you’re right: he has got in. And if I don’t mistake, there’ll be the devil to pay in one of the rooms upstairs.’   ‘I’ll tell you what,’ said Williams: ‘I’ll take the picture across to old Green’ (this was the senior Fellow of the College, who had been Bursar for many years). ‘It’s quite likely he’ll know it. We have property in Essex and Sussex, and he must have been over the two counties a lot in his time.’   ‘Quite likely he will,’ said Nisbet; ‘but just let me take my photograph first. But look here, I rather think Green isn’t up today. He wasn’t in Hall last night, and I think I heard him say he was going down for the Sunday.’   ‘That’s true, too,’ said Williams; ‘I know he’s gone to Brighton. Well, if you’ll photograph it now, I’ll go across to Garwood and get his statement, and you keep an eye on it while I’m gone. I’m beginning to think two guineas is not a very exorbitant price for it now.’   In a short time he had returned, and brought Mr Garwood with him. Garwood’s statement was to the effect that the figure, when he had seen it, was clear of the edge of the picture, but had not got far across the lawn. He remembered a white mark on the back of its drapery, but could not have been sure it was a cross. A document to this effect was then drawn up and signed, and Nisbet proceeded to photograph the picture.   ‘Now what do you mean to do?’ he said. ‘Are you going to sit and watch it all day?’   ‘Well, no, I think not,’ said Williams. ‘I rather imagine we’re meant to see the whole thing. You see, between the time I saw it last night and this morning there was time for lots of things to happen, but the creature only got into the house. It could easily have got through its business in the time and gone to its own place again; but the fact of the window being open, I think, must mean that it’s in there now. So I feel quite easy about leaving it. And besides, I have a kind of idea that it wouldn’t change much, if at all, in the daytime. We might go out for a walk this afternoon, and come in to tea, or whenever it gets dark. I shall leave it out on the table here, and sport the door. My skip can get in, but no one else.’   The three agreed that this would be a good plan; and, further, that if they spent the afternoon together they would be less likely to talk about the business to other people; for any rumour of such a transaction as was going on would bring the whole of the Phasmatological Society about their ears.   We may give them a respite until five o’clock.   At or near that hour the three were entering Williams’s staircase. They were at first slightly annoyed to see that the door of his rooms was unsported; but in a moment it was remembered that on Sunday the skips came for orders an hour or so earlier than on weekdays. However, a surprise was awaiting them. The first thing they saw was the picture leaning up against a pile of books on the table, as it had been left, and the next thing was Williams’s skip, seated on a chair opposite, gazing at it with undisguised horror. How was this? Mr Filcher (the name is not my own invention) was a servant of considerable standing, and set the standard of etiquette to all his own college and to several neighbouring ones, and nothing could be more alien to his practice than to be found sitting on his master’s chair, or appearing to take any particular notice of his master’s furniture or pictures. Indeed, he seemed to feel this himself. He started violently when the three men were in the room, and got up with a marked effort. Then he said:   ‘I ask your pardon, sir, for taking such a freedom as to set down.’   ‘Not at all, Robert,’ interposed Mr Williams. ‘I was meaning to ask you some time what you thought of that picture.’   ‘Well, sir, of course I don’t set up my opinion against yours, but it ain’t the pictur I should ‘ang where my little girl could see it, sir.’   ‘Wouldn’t you, Robert? Why not?’   ‘No, sir. Why, the pore child, I recollect once she see a Door Bible, with pictures not ‘alf what that is, and we ‘ad to set up with her three or four nights afterwards, if you’ll believe me; and if she was to ketch a sight of this skelinton here, or whatever it is, carrying off the pore baby, she would be in a taking. You know ‘ow it is with children; ‘ow nervish they git with a little thing and all. But what I should say, it don’t seem a right pictur to be laying about, sir, not where anyone that’s liable to be startled could come on it. Should you be wanting anything this evening, sir? Thank you, sir.’   With these words the excellent man went to continue the round of his masters, and you may be sure the gentlemen whom he left lost no time in gathering round the engraving. There was the house, as before under the waning moon and the drifting clouds. The window that had been open was shut, and the figure was once more on the lawn: but not this time crawling cautiously on hands and knees. Now it was erect and stepping swiftly, with long strides, towards the front of the picture. The moon was behind it, and the black drapery hung down over its face so that only hints of that could be seen, and what was visible made the spectators profoundly thankful that they could see no more than a white dome-like forehead and a few straggling hairs. The head was bent down, and the arms were tightly clasped over an object which could be dimly seen and identified as a child, whether dead or living it was not possible to say. The legs of the appearance alone could be plainly discerned, and they were horribly thin.   From five to seven the three companions sat and watched the picture by turns. But it never changed. They agreed at last that it would be safe to leave it, and that they would return after Hall and await further developments.   When they assembled again, at the earliest possible moment, the engraving was there, but the figure was gone, and the house was quiet under the moonbeams. There was nothing for it but to spend the evening over gazetteers and guide-books. Williams was the lucky one at last, and perhaps he deserved it. At 11.30 p.m. he read from Murray’s Guide to Essex the following lines:   16–1/2 miles, Anningley . The church has been an interesting building of Norman date, but was extensively classicized in the last century. It contains the tomb of the family of Francis, whose mansion, Anningley Hall, a solid Queen Anne house, stands immediately beyond the churchyard in a park of about 80 acres. The family is now extinct, the last heir having disappeared mysteriously in infancy in the year 1802. The father, Mr Arthur Francis, was locally known as a talented amateur engraver in mezzotint. After his son’s disappearance he lived in complete retirement at the Hall, and was found dead in his studio on the third anniversary of the disaster, having just completed an engraving of the house, impressions of which are of considerable rarity.   This looked like business, and, indeed, Mr Green on his return at once identified the house as Anningley Hall.   ‘Is there any kind of explanation of the figure, Green?’ was the question which Williams naturally asked.   ‘I don’t know, I’m sure, Williams. What used to be said in the place when I first knew it, which was before I came up here, was just this: old Francis was always very much down on these poaching fellows, and whenever he got a chance he used to get a man whom he suspected of it turned off the estate, and by degrees he got rid of them all but one. Squires could do a lot of things then that they daren’t think of now. Well, this man that was left was what you find pretty often in that country — the last remains of a very old family. I believe they were Lords of the Manor at one time. I recollect just the same thing in my own parish.’   ‘What, like the man in Tess o’ the Durbervilles ?’ Williams put in.   ‘Yes, I dare say; it’s not a book I could ever read myself. But this fellow could show a row of tombs in the church there that belonged to his ancestors, and all that went to sour him a bit; but Francis, they said, could never get at him — he always kept just on the right side of the law — until one night the keepers found him at it in a wood right at the end of the estate. I could show you the place now; it marches with some land that used to belong to an uncle of mine. And you can imagine there was a row; and this man Gawdy (that was the name, to be sure — Gawdy; I thought I should get it — Gawdy), he was unlucky enough, poor chap! to shoot a keeper. Well, that was what Francis wanted, and grand juries — you know what they would have been then — and poor Gawdy was strung up in double-quick time; and I’ve been shown the place he was buried in, on the north side of the church — you know the way in that part of the world: anyone that’s been hanged or made away with themselves, they bury them that side. And the idea was that some friend of Gawdy’s — not a relation, because he had none, poor devil! he was the last of his line: kind of spes ultima gentis — must have planned to get hold of Francis’s boy and put an end to his line, too. I don’t know — it’s rather an out-of-the-way thing for an Essex poacher to think of — but, you know, I should say now it looks more as if old Gawdy had managed the job himself. Booh! I hate to think of it! have some whisky, Williams!’   The facts were communicated by Williams to Dennistoun, and by him to a mixed company, of which I was one, and the Sadducean Professor of Ophiology another. I am sorry to say that the latter when asked what he thought of it, only remarked: ‘Oh, those Bridgeford people will say anything’— a sentiment which met with the reception it deserved.   I have only to add that the picture is now in the Ashleian Museum; that it has been treated with a view to discovering whether sympathetic ink has been used in it, but without effect; that Mr Britnell knew nothing of it save that he was sure it was uncommon; and that, though carefully watched, it has never been known to change again.    

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