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Stephanie:Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish, the podcast where we talk to cool people in the food space. We talk to a lot of cookbook authors, and today I'm excited to talk to Sally Ekus. She is a literary agent, which, if you've written books or you're trying to get a book published, you know how important the agent process is. She leads a boutique culinary and lifestyle division via @JVNLA and is the lead agent at the Ekus Group. Did I get it right?Follow Sally's Substack Newsletter Not So Secret Agent Sally Ekus:Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I lead the Ekus Group. So we're a culinary and lifestyle division within a broader agency.Stephanie:And the Ekus Group was started by your mom.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:A legend. Your mom has, like, one of the largest cookbook collections that I'm aware of.Sally Ekus:In fact, the largest, according to Guinness. Yes.Stephanie:A couple of months ago, I think maybe it was on your Instagram page, someone posted a picture of her library of her home that is literally looks like a library that you would see in New York city or Washington, D.C. or somewhere fancy with just walls and walls of books. It was so gorgeous.Sally Ekus:Yeah, It's a two store, all cherry wood, gorgeous library. She built the edition. It was a dream edition. It took a lifetime to build. And it is filled with cookbooks, almost exclusively cookbooks. Her fiction and children's books and other personal books are scattered elsewhere around the house. But the library is almost entirely culinary with over 6000 titles. It's really cool.Stephanie:It's amazing. And your mom's name is? Lisa. Please, can I ask you a question? I'm going to go all over the place here, but sure, please. I have a daughter and only one daughter and no sons. So my only child. And there are things that we have in common about cooking and about food, and I always think, like, oh, maybe she'll follow in my footsteps. But then she is quick to point out, like, no, I'm never doing that. But then she's sort of leaning sort of my way.Stephanie:How did that work with you and being in the publishing space?Sally Ekus:Yeah. So how old is your daughter now?Stephanie:26.Sally Ekus:Okay. Yeah. So growing up, my mom had this vibrant culinary business. At the time, it was a PR agency before we did agenting, and it was never supposed to be a family business. She never pressured me or said, you know, maybe one day. In fact, it was just like. If you had asked me before I started working with her, what does Lisa do for a living? I would have said something with books and something in food. So I was like, growing up in this.Sally Ekus:And I was immersed and sort of absorbing by osmosis. And, you know, in the, in my younger years, I would be like, collating press kits for PR campaigns and, you know, I was like earning a allowance, mailing catalogs and whatnot. But it wasn't, it wasn't something she was really like, whatever you want to do, follow your heart. I was on a different path. I went to school for counseling and I was about to go for a master's in social work. And I deferred. I broke up with a bad decision, moved home, started helping out at the agency and realized that I'd been informally training for this my whole life. I really fell in love with it.And I was very fortunate to step into the legacy of her reputation. And then also, once we decided this is something I wanted to do, talk about what the succession plan would look like and really carve out my own, you know, vibe and skill set and cultivate my own list, supporting her list. And so it was really a unintentional natural progression that then became quite intentional and, you know, quite effortful. So I think that's kind of why it worked out. And if, you know, but it's hard to say in hindsight.Stephanie:It's funny too. You talk about this like being in training of knowing this thing and you not even really realizing that until you've left and gone to do something else. And also, it does track that you were going to be a social worker.Sally Ekus:Absolutely.Stephanie:And now you're an agent.Sally Ekus:Yeah. I somewhat sarcastically but realistically acknowledge that I was trained in crisis counseling, active listening, and negotiation. So all of those things play a very big role in the work that I do as a literary agent working with books. But, you know, at the end of the day, it is a book. It is you know, not somebody's. Well, it is somebody's mental well being, but in a. In a different light. So I get to utilize those skills all the time.Sally Ekus:And it feels, it feels quite, quite lucky. And, you know, it's really the client management and author care and author advocacy that I love so much. And that has kept me, kept me in this, in this business for as long as it has.Stephanie:What is it about cookbooks in particular that makes you solely focus on that?Sally Ekus:Well, that I stepped into, you know, that was Lisa's area of expertise. She was one of the very first cookbook publicists. Publicist. She essentially created the category of culinary publicity before there were massive agencies handling, you know, influencers and brand campaigns. And so that was her area of expertise. So that's what I stepped into and was hyper mentored in. And I also equally just felt in love with it. I mean, there are many different things that bring people together, and at the end of the day, it feels like food is that one.Sally Ekus:Through line. Everyone has some relationship to food, recipes, cooking, memory, good, bad, complicated, probably somewhere in the middle. And so to have a little. To have a role in helping to bring that to fruition in published form is a tremendous honor.Stephanie:You are the publisher, or the agent, actually, of Entertaining 101 with Beth Lamana.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:We just talked with. With her last.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I listened to that. It was such a fun conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, she was pretty great. And the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I was at my radio partner's office, and we were talking about a project, and she had a stack of cookbooks, and I was like, oh, what are you working on? She's like, oh, I'm. I'm helping our friend from Muriel, Karen Tomlinson, put her proposal together.Sally Ekus:Oh, my gosh.Stephanie:Oh, that's interesting. And she goes, yeah, she's got a really great agent already. And I'm like, who's her agent? And it's you.Sally Ekus:Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm so excited to be working with her. Yep. Yeah.Stephanie:Her point of view on food and her storytelling of the purveyors that she works with and her just completely beautiful recipes. I'm so excited for you, and I'm so excited for that book.Sally Ekus:Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's a great example of really early development. You know, I often say that I work with people, not proposals. You know, we can get to the proposal. I help guide people through that process as an agent. And, you know, this is a great example where it's like, you know, I'm so captivated by the food and the media attention and the accolades and the intentionality of what is happening from the farm to the plate. And so, you know, sometimes chefs work with writers or collaborators to help bring that to the. To the printed page.Sally Ekus:And that's where we're at with that project. So it's in very early stages, which is super exciting.Stephanie:Yeah. You're going to not be disappointed. She is just a great person. She's a great storyteller, and that you had a really good eye to pick her up, because I think she's.Sally Ekus:Thank you.Stephanie:What other projects do you have on the docket right now that you're excited about? I see Potluck Desserts behind you.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah. Justin Burke, Potluck Desserts. Justin's book came out the same day as Beth's just a couple weeks ago. And I try to rotate in my background the books that are sort of newly rotating. So The Meathead Method over here, that is Meathead's second book. His first book called Meathead, came out almost 10 years ago. And it's all. Both books are all about the science and art and science of barbecue and grilling and outdoor cooking.Sally Ekus:I have books in a bunch of different levels of activity, so that's also fun because I have something that's like, you know, proposal and development and then things that are coming out. So it really, it really runs the gamut. I just saw Frankie Gaw, whose Instagram handle is @littlefatboyfrankie. He's up for a James Beard Media Award, and he just turned in the manuscript for his second book called Asian Americana. So I'm really excited about that. So it's really all levels of development over here.Stephanie:Once someone does their first book, is it easier to market them the second time around?Sally Ekus:Great question. I find that yes, because really, once that first book is to, you know, publishers need you to have or want you to have a big platform to warrant signing a book deal. And then the book helps sort of level up that platform, promotion, name recognition, certainly moving beyond like the core community of that author. It helps introduce new readers, new cooks, new fans to that person's work. And so I find that that second book, third book, fourth book, 10th book, really helps just keep that momentum going.Stephanie:You wrote something recently on your substack that people should follow you because you're a good follow that I really have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I'm probably going to get the name of the author wrong. So you may have to come.Sally Ekus:We can figure it out together. Yeah.Stephanie:The idea of it was is that a new cookbook writer launched a book tour in a way that was a little unconventional and in some ways maybe controversial because instead of the usual like going out to the booksellers and having a Q and A and talking, she hired her friend who is a comedian and really created more of like, I'll call it in air quotes, like a Real Housewives type in person cooking experience. That there was cooking demonstration, there was talking about the book. Do you know who I'm talking about?Sally Ekus:No, actually. Was it one of my clients or maybe a reshare?Stephanie:I think it's a reshare because she has been on the New York Times bestseller list now with her book for a couple weeks and it was the literary agencies kind of looked down on what she did a little bit because it was unconventional and maybe a little.Sally Ekus:I mean, I love unconventional.Stephanie:I kind of did too.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah.Stephanie:I wanted to ask you about that because I'm, you know, I'm getting ready to launch my own tour and thinking about, like, locations and. Yeah, it really blew my mind to think, like, for me in particular, and people that have really strong performing skills, like, you know, I am, I would say I'm more of a performer of cooking content than I am of necessarily creating recipes. I do recipe development, but it's more about the presentation of it. And I think that's so cool to think about that we're bringing books into this digital age in that way.Sally Ekus:Absolutely. So my overarching advice with every anything in publishing is it depends and you do you like, what fits for one person is not one size fits all for the other book or other campaigns. And so I love to share information, whether it's on my substack not so secret agent or on my social or just with my clients. Like, I like to share. Here's an example or here's five examples of what another author has done, what is helpful, what resonates with you, and like, move on from the rest. You know, how can you evolve this into your own campaign? And cooking is such a tactile experience. It's so experiential in and of itself. It's such a connector.Sally Ekus:It also can be so beautiful alone. Like, do what feels right for you, your book, and share in a way that feels true to you. Because that's what I think really attracts people to come out first and foremost and like, spend their free time and free re and any sort of additional resources they may have and make it fun and memorable. You know, I mean, I think more and more we see brands and individual authors and companies just evolving. You know the term like activation into experiences, into just moments that matter.Stephanie:You mentioned your substack not so secret agent, and I'm wondering if substack is changing or improving the landscape for cookbook authors.Sally Ekus:I think substack's changing all kinds of things. You know, it used to be that at least as a cookbook agent, we would sort of scout on Instagram or TikTok. And now substack is certainly a major player and there's a ton of food content and creators on substack. But even just a year ago when I got on, there's a lot less and I think there's still a lot more room because there's so many hyper focused areas of interest in foods that you have this opportunity. You know, maybe you can't land a publishing deal, but if you can build a community of the people that want your recipes, your voice, your food, whatever it is in that specific space, go for it. I mean, you can be so hyper focused and really build this, this beautiful community. And I love the Substack ecosystem. It's been incredibly generous to me and I try to give back as much as possible.Sally Ekus:Like the recommendations and resharing and discoverability aspect of Substack has been a really beautiful thing to experience.Stephanie:They've really democratized the idea of podcasting too. I've been podcasting for seven years. Actually longer than that, maybe even closer to like nine.Sally Ekus:Wow.Stephanie:Well, I was a broadcaster so it makes sense to go from radio to developing a podcast space and just the ease of ability of doing it now, you know, before you had to have special equipment and people to host it. And it's just gotten so much simpler. And we're also seeing that, I think with video that's making it so easy to go live. You don't necessarily need 10,000 watch hours on YouTube or 3,000 subscribers or whatever, you know.Sally Ekus:Yeah, most of my readers come like my email goes to their actual email inbox though people find me through substack and so it's been fun. I'm not by any means a seasoned or polished content creator, but I've been doing videos as one means of explaining other things about publishing and just kind of seeing how that resonates with people in their inbox versus other mediums. And it's been really fun. They are super lo fi and quite off the cuff. But most people that are not tuning in live to me on Substack, they'll find it in their inbox the next morning, which has been really fun too.Stephanie:I think the lo fi aspects too are almost what people are looking for.Sally Ekus:I hope so.Stephanie:I have not the TikTok algorithm and I are not friends, probably never will be friends. And I don't understand it at all because I can produce like something that looks great, tastes good, you. It's just mouthwatering to watch. And then I can post like a picture of my dog and that will be the thing that.Sally Ekus:Right. Well, I think animals will always outperform us on, on the socials as they should at this point.Stephanie:You know, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. A single subject book has popped into the zeitgeist that I'm really. I think it's a really great book. Sesame, it's called.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And it's like a single ingredient versus and they take that. She takes that single ingredient and uses it in many different ways throughout the book. You must see like single ingredient books, seasonal books, like, are there trends in what's hot right now?Sally Ekus:I love single ingredient books or single subject. Oftentimes it's a lower recipe count, somewhere between like the 50 to 75 range, as opposed to 75 to 100 or 125. It just feels like a little bit more giftable, a little bit more impulse buy. And it's really fun to see those. There's always single subject books cropping up. But I think particularly in the shift in the cookbook market, meaning there's a bigger gap between creator led books, big robust cookbooks and then sort of a place for everyone else. And sometimes that place where you can settle in for everyone else if you don't have this massive following is in a single subject book that could be your expertise or deep, deeply researched. I don't necessarily think that's so much a trend as it is something that like ebbs and flows.Sally Ekus:And we see a little bit more of on the cookbook shelf because they've always been there. But now people can nerd out on one thing and they'll go to the cookbook shelf because the food scene just in the zeitgeist has become so popular. There's strawberry earrings and I've got a sweater with cherries on it. So why not a book about just sesame? It's really a time to celebrate ingredients and food.Stephanie:When you are on like Instagram or TikTok and you're trying to relax, like you're not working. And I know that's really hard to even do.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Are you following like other creators and other spaces and thinking like, gee, how are they doing this or does that work for you?Sally Ekus:Well, I would, I would just clarify that I don't go on social to relax, but and also I'm almost always working. However, to answer your actual question, I have. Most of the people I follow outside of the food space are in the body inclusivity, body positivity space. I follow some fashion people that are highly inclusive, plus size fashion people that have completely changed my relationship to even the fact that I've said fashion on a podcast interview. I just never would have been that person a while ago. But it's offered me an opportunity to see like color and textures and textiles and just the lifestyle of how we have a relationship to our closet In a new way. Also the home and space, you know, I sometimes represent outside of the cookbook shelf. And so I like to say that I, I represent the home with a focus on the kitchen, but I also, you know, hang out in the living room and I have a tiny human, so I hang out with the kids space.Sally Ekus:And so it's just focusing on other rooms at the home at times has been really fun too. So that's kind of where I dabble on social as well.Stephanie:Speaking of kids, I don't know why this comes to mind, but I always get asked, you know, what are the cookbooks that you should be buying for kids and better homes or not. Betty Crocker's Boys and Girls is still like a best selling book, right?Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And then there's one other one that I'm going to not think of the name right off the top of my head, but there feels like there is kind of an empty space in Cooking with Kids and Cooking with Families.Sally Ekus:Yeah, there's a few. So I love the ATK books. I think it's a great brand. They've got great recipes for Cooking with Kids. Deanna Cook, who is a story publishing author, has a bunch of kids books that are awesome. And for me, I think sometimes it's not that there's like a lack of. It's just that there's still space for. And the tricky part about pitching and representing those books or selling them is it, is, is it a book for cooking with kids? Is it a book for kids to cook from? You know, and those are different age groups and those are different recipe styles.Sally Ekus:So much down to like the page and the format and the illustrations or the pictures or the how to steps. So there's just so many practical considerations and logistical ones that it's a slightly trickier category, but one that we've, we, we've dabbled in a little bit and there's some great books and I think a lot of space for, for others. The author of Indian Ish did a kids cookbook as well that I found really fun and just wonderful recipes. I forget the name of the book off the top of my head.Stephanie:That Indian Ish was a really cool cookbook.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:There's been some just beautiful, texturally colorful books written by people from more diverse backgrounds. And while it seems like we see a ton of that right now, and we are, it is fairly new in the last 10 years.Sally Ekus:It has become magnified and intensified though our agency. And kudos to Lisa for carving out her space as a Literary agent representing underrepresented voices from the get go. It's been a part of the ethos of our agency since day one. And so to see publishers in the past 10 years really prioritizing marginalized voices is amazing. And also a little about time, you know?Stephanie:Yeah.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Okay. Kind of a controversial question. Sometimes people in the media can be a little snooty about influencers and about social media in particular, because I think they feel maybe like people are treading on their. Their authority of space. Yeah, you get people that feel snarky sometimes about, like, oh, they're an influencer. It's another influencer cookbook and kind of eye rolling because there are some not so great cookbooks written by really good content creators, but maybe they're not great at putting it all in a book format or maybe the recipes aren't necessarily great. Once they get past that beautiful shot, do you think that there'll be, like, almost a backlash to this whole genre, as it were?Sally Ekus:I don't know that it would necessarily be a backlash in that a lot of the creator led books, both the great ones and the more challenging ones. I think the positive outcome of all of those books is that it has put this spotlight on food and the cookbook shelf. And I think the more people who are interested in what books are on the cookbook shelf, the better. What I do feel, and I've already started feeling this as an agent, is that the shift back to experts or an evolution to what is the next version of people that have really robust followings, capturing their audience in a meaningful way and delivering content that rings true to that audience and honors what the industry is looking for. I'm already hearing that shift from acquiring editors from publishers that I work really closely with and even in my own scouting. So I feel like we are moving towards the. Thank you very much for bringing a spotlight to the shelf. And where are we going and how can we all support the industry at large and.Stephanie:And the trend that we're talking about or hearing about is more expertise, you know, more of a microscope on something in more detail.Sally Ekus:Exactly, yeah. Which is so fun. I mean, more interest, more books, more. More food, more deep dives.Stephanie:And also, like, I mean, we just start scratching the surface about, like, my husband and I are working on books about place of food. So, like, we've written a fiction book about Croatia that has recipe as a component to it.Sally Ekus:I'm seeing a lot more crossover among different genres, even between fiction and nonfiction. I was just pitched a proposal, probably the first Maybe it's the second one that has sort of a fictional component to it. And I, you know, I don't represent fiction. That's for my colleagues at the agency and other agents in the industry. But it is fun to see how food has like penetrated every aspect of our lives and it's just delightful.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm super excited about that. In just my personal journey, it's keeping it fresh and interesting.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:You know, my husband is a writer as a fiction writer. And for us to like collaborate on a project together in a way that I know what my lane is and he knows what his lane is is pretty fun.Sally Ekus:Well, I think that's one of the many gifts that have come out of this like creator led book or just like the, the intensification of food in the zeitgeist is that people who are, who are an expert in a certain culinary topic could be a consultant on a novel or who knows, you know what I mean? And it's just, it's blowing the fridge doors wide open.Stephanie:I feel like it's sort of like the white lotus effect for books and cooking and food generally that put that lens on travel and exotic locales. And I just feel like that's the next thing and I'm gonna be there, I promise.Sally Ekus:Cool. Well, it is, it's so fun to just see our beloved culinary space be celebrated across, across genres and like just.Stephanie:To get back to as a little kid going into a bookstore or going into the library and just the joy of, you know, books have been under attack for the last 20 years as the Amazonification of the world has happened. But we're seeing in Minneapolis in particular, like lots of local bookstores are opening again and people are making them multi purpose. So they might be selling cooking things, but also they might have a coffee shop, they might do pastry.Sally Ekus:Yeah, my. One of my favorite recommendations for authors or aspiring authors or just dear friends is to go to your local independent bookstore and talk to the people that work there and ideally talk to the owner and the people who make the decisions about what books to bring in. It is a wildly fascinating conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, it's the best part about a book tour for me is actually like getting to talk to the people that recommend and sell the books and then.Sally Ekus:Also buy books there. Not. I think that's implied, but you never know.Stephanie:Yes. Sally, it's been a delight to talk to you. Thank you for joining the program today. I'll put links to your substack, also your information. If I don't know if anyone's listening is thinking about pitches, but if you are.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I have really comprehensive nonfiction book proposal guidelines that definitely pertain to those looking to write food books, but also are really applicable to anyone that's looking to learn about publishing. So that's a great link to share. And thank you so much for having me on.Stephanie:Yeah, it's great. And keep pitching me your authors. You have good authors. And the books. Beth was a joy.Sally Ekus:Oh, thanks.Stephanie:All right, we'll talk soon.Sally Ekus:Okay, bye.Stephanie:Okay, bye. Bye.Stephanie's Dish Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

Stephanie:Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish, the podcast where we talk to cool people in the food space. We talk to a lot of cookbook authors, and today I'm excited to talk to Sally Ekus. She is a literary agent, which, if you've written books or you're trying to get a book published, you know how important the agent process is. She leads a boutique culinary and lifestyle division via @JVNLA and is the lead agent at the Ekus Group. Did I get it right?Follow Sally's Substack Newsletter Not So Secret Agent Sally Ekus:Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I lead the Ekus Group. So we're a culinary and lifestyle division within a broader agency.Stephanie:And the Ekus Group was started by your mom.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:A legend. Your mom has, like, one of the largest cookbook collections that I'm aware of.Sally Ekus:In fact, the largest, according to Guinness. Yes.Stephanie:A couple of months ago, I think maybe it was on your Instagram page, someone posted a picture of her library of her home that is literally looks like a library that you would see in New York city or Washington, D.C. or somewhere fancy with just walls and walls of books. It was so gorgeous.Sally Ekus:Yeah, It's a two store, all cherry wood, gorgeous library. She built the edition. It was a dream edition. It took a lifetime to build. And it is filled with cookbooks, almost exclusively cookbooks. Her fiction and children's books and other personal books are scattered elsewhere around the house. But the library is almost entirely culinary with over 6000 titles. It's really cool.Stephanie:It's amazing. And your mom's name is? Lisa. Please, can I ask you a question? I'm going to go all over the place here, but sure, please. I have a daughter and only one daughter and no sons. So my only child. And there are things that we have in common about cooking and about food, and I always think, like, oh, maybe she'll follow in my footsteps. But then she is quick to point out, like, no, I'm never doing that. But then she's sort of leaning sort of my way.Stephanie:How did that work with you and being in the publishing space?Sally Ekus:Yeah. So how old is your daughter now?Stephanie:26.Sally Ekus:Okay. Yeah. So growing up, my mom had this vibrant culinary business. At the time, it was a PR agency before we did agenting, and it was never supposed to be a family business. She never pressured me or said, you know, maybe one day. In fact, it was just like. If you had asked me before I started working with her, what does Lisa do for a living? I would have said something with books and something in food. So I was like, growing up in this.Sally Ekus:And I was immersed and sort of absorbing by osmosis. And, you know, in the, in my younger years, I would be like, collating press kits for PR campaigns and, you know, I was like earning a allowance, mailing catalogs and whatnot. But it wasn't, it wasn't something she was really like, whatever you want to do, follow your heart. I was on a different path. I went to school for counseling and I was about to go for a master's in social work. And I deferred. I broke up with a bad decision, moved home, started helping out at the agency and realized that I'd been informally training for this my whole life. I really fell in love with it.And I was very fortunate to step into the legacy of her reputation. And then also, once we decided this is something I wanted to do, talk about what the succession plan would look like and really carve out my own, you know, vibe and skill set and cultivate my own list, supporting her list. And so it was really a unintentional natural progression that then became quite intentional and, you know, quite effortful. So I think that's kind of why it worked out. And if, you know, but it's hard to say in hindsight.Stephanie:It's funny too. You talk about this like being in training of knowing this thing and you not even really realizing that until you've left and gone to do something else. And also, it does track that you were going to be a social worker.Sally Ekus:Absolutely.Stephanie:And now you're an agent.Sally Ekus:Yeah. I somewhat sarcastically but realistically acknowledge that I was trained in crisis counseling, active listening, and negotiation. So all of those things play a very big role in the work that I do as a literary agent working with books. But, you know, at the end of the day, it is a book. It is you know, not somebody's. Well, it is somebody's mental well being, but in a. In a different light. So I get to utilize those skills all the time.Sally Ekus:And it feels, it feels quite, quite lucky. And, you know, it's really the client management and author care and author advocacy that I love so much. And that has kept me, kept me in this, in this business for as long as it has.Stephanie:What is it about cookbooks in particular that makes you solely focus on that?Sally Ekus:Well, that I stepped into, you know, that was Lisa's area of expertise. She was one of the very first cookbook publicists. Publicist. She essentially created the category of culinary publicity before there were massive agencies handling, you know, influencers and brand campaigns. And so that was her area of expertise. So that's what I stepped into and was hyper mentored in. And I also equally just felt in love with it. I mean, there are many different things that bring people together, and at the end of the day, it feels like food is that one.Sally Ekus:Through line. Everyone has some relationship to food, recipes, cooking, memory, good, bad, complicated, probably somewhere in the middle. And so to have a little. To have a role in helping to bring that to fruition in published form is a tremendous honor.Stephanie:You are the publisher, or the agent, actually, of Entertaining 101 with Beth Lamana.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:We just talked with. With her last.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I listened to that. It was such a fun conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, she was pretty great. And the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I was at my radio partner's office, and we were talking about a project, and she had a stack of cookbooks, and I was like, oh, what are you working on? She's like, oh, I'm. I'm helping our friend from Muriel, Karen Tomlinson, put her proposal together.Sally Ekus:Oh, my gosh.Stephanie:Oh, that's interesting. And she goes, yeah, she's got a really great agent already. And I'm like, who's her agent? And it's you.Sally Ekus:Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm so excited to be working with her. Yep. Yeah.Stephanie:Her point of view on food and her storytelling of the purveyors that she works with and her just completely beautiful recipes. I'm so excited for you, and I'm so excited for that book.Sally Ekus:Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's a great example of really early development. You know, I often say that I work with people, not proposals. You know, we can get to the proposal. I help guide people through that process as an agent. And, you know, this is a great example where it's like, you know, I'm so captivated by the food and the media attention and the accolades and the intentionality of what is happening from the farm to the plate. And so, you know, sometimes chefs work with writers or collaborators to help bring that to the. To the printed page.Sally Ekus:And that's where we're at with that project. So it's in very early stages, which is super exciting.Stephanie:Yeah. You're going to not be disappointed. She is just a great person. She's a great storyteller, and that you had a really good eye to pick her up, because I think she's.Sally Ekus:Thank you.Stephanie:What other projects do you have on the docket right now that you're excited about? I see Potluck Desserts behind you.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah. Justin Burke, Potluck Desserts. Justin's book came out the same day as Beth's just a couple weeks ago. And I try to rotate in my background the books that are sort of newly rotating. So The Meathead Method over here, that is Meathead's second book. His first book called Meathead, came out almost 10 years ago. And it's all. Both books are all about the science and art and science of barbecue and grilling and outdoor cooking.Sally Ekus:I have books in a bunch of different levels of activity, so that's also fun because I have something that's like, you know, proposal and development and then things that are coming out. So it really, it really runs the gamut. I just saw Frankie Gaw, whose Instagram handle is @littlefatboyfrankie. He's up for a James Beard Media Award, and he just turned in the manuscript for his second book called Asian Americana. So I'm really excited about that. So it's really all levels of development over here.Stephanie:Once someone does their first book, is it easier to market them the second time around?Sally Ekus:Great question. I find that yes, because really, once that first book is to, you know, publishers need you to have or want you to have a big platform to warrant signing a book deal. And then the book helps sort of level up that platform, promotion, name recognition, certainly moving beyond like the core community of that author. It helps introduce new readers, new cooks, new fans to that person's work. And so I find that that second book, third book, fourth book, 10th book, really helps just keep that momentum going.Stephanie:You wrote something recently on your substack that people should follow you because you're a good follow that I really have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I'm probably going to get the name of the author wrong. So you may have to come.Sally Ekus:We can figure it out together. Yeah.Stephanie:The idea of it was is that a new cookbook writer launched a book tour in a way that was a little unconventional and in some ways maybe controversial because instead of the usual like going out to the booksellers and having a Q and A and talking, she hired her friend who is a comedian and really created more of like, I'll call it in air quotes, like a Real Housewives type in person cooking experience. That there was cooking demonstration, there was talking about the book. Do you know who I'm talking about?Sally Ekus:No, actually. Was it one of my clients or maybe a reshare?Stephanie:I think it's a reshare because she has been on the New York Times bestseller list now with her book for a couple weeks and it was the literary agencies kind of looked down on what she did a little bit because it was unconventional and maybe a little.Sally Ekus:I mean, I love unconventional.Stephanie:I kind of did too.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah.Stephanie:I wanted to ask you about that because I'm, you know, I'm getting ready to launch my own tour and thinking about, like, locations and. Yeah, it really blew my mind to think, like, for me in particular, and people that have really strong performing skills, like, you know, I am, I would say I'm more of a performer of cooking content than I am of necessarily creating recipes. I do recipe development, but it's more about the presentation of it. And I think that's so cool to think about that we're bringing books into this digital age in that way.Sally Ekus:Absolutely. So my overarching advice with every anything in publishing is it depends and you do you like, what fits for one person is not one size fits all for the other book or other campaigns. And so I love to share information, whether it's on my substack not so secret agent or on my social or just with my clients. Like, I like to share. Here's an example or here's five examples of what another author has done, what is helpful, what resonates with you, and like, move on from the rest. You know, how can you evolve this into your own campaign? And cooking is such a tactile experience. It's so experiential in and of itself. It's such a connector.Sally Ekus:It also can be so beautiful alone. Like, do what feels right for you, your book, and share in a way that feels true to you. Because that's what I think really attracts people to come out first and foremost and like, spend their free time and free re and any sort of additional resources they may have and make it fun and memorable. You know, I mean, I think more and more we see brands and individual authors and companies just evolving. You know the term like activation into experiences, into just moments that matter.Stephanie:You mentioned your substack not so secret agent, and I'm wondering if substack is changing or improving the landscape for cookbook authors.Sally Ekus:I think substack's changing all kinds of things. You know, it used to be that at least as a cookbook agent, we would sort of scout on Instagram or TikTok. And now substack is certainly a major player and there's a ton of food content and creators on substack. But even just a year ago when I got on, there's a lot less and I think there's still a lot more room because there's so many hyper focused areas of interest in foods that you have this opportunity. You know, maybe you can't land a publishing deal, but if you can build a community of the people that want your recipes, your voice, your food, whatever it is in that specific space, go for it. I mean, you can be so hyper focused and really build this, this beautiful community. And I love the Substack ecosystem. It's been incredibly generous to me and I try to give back as much as possible.Sally Ekus:Like the recommendations and resharing and discoverability aspect of Substack has been a really beautiful thing to experience.Stephanie:They've really democratized the idea of podcasting too. I've been podcasting for seven years. Actually longer than that, maybe even closer to like nine.Sally Ekus:Wow.Stephanie:Well, I was a broadcaster so it makes sense to go from radio to developing a podcast space and just the ease of ability of doing it now, you know, before you had to have special equipment and people to host it. And it's just gotten so much simpler. And we're also seeing that, I think with video that's making it so easy to go live. You don't necessarily need 10,000 watch hours on YouTube or 3,000 subscribers or whatever, you know.Sally Ekus:Yeah, most of my readers come like my email goes to their actual email inbox though people find me through substack and so it's been fun. I'm not by any means a seasoned or polished content creator, but I've been doing videos as one means of explaining other things about publishing and just kind of seeing how that resonates with people in their inbox versus other mediums. And it's been really fun. They are super lo fi and quite off the cuff. But most people that are not tuning in live to me on Substack, they'll find it in their inbox the next morning, which has been really fun too.Stephanie:I think the lo fi aspects too are almost what people are looking for.Sally Ekus:I hope so.Stephanie:I have not the TikTok algorithm and I are not friends, probably never will be friends. And I don't understand it at all because I can produce like something that looks great, tastes good, you. It's just mouthwatering to watch. And then I can post like a picture of my dog and that will be the thing that.Sally Ekus:Right. Well, I think animals will always outperform us on, on the socials as they should at this point.Stephanie:You know, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. A single subject book has popped into the zeitgeist that I'm really. I think it's a really great book. Sesame, it's called.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And it's like a single ingredient versus and they take that. She takes that single ingredient and uses it in many different ways throughout the book. You must see like single ingredient books, seasonal books, like, are there trends in what's hot right now?Sally Ekus:I love single ingredient books or single subject. Oftentimes it's a lower recipe count, somewhere between like the 50 to 75 range, as opposed to 75 to 100 or 125. It just feels like a little bit more giftable, a little bit more impulse buy. And it's really fun to see those. There's always single subject books cropping up. But I think particularly in the shift in the cookbook market, meaning there's a bigger gap between creator led books, big robust cookbooks and then sort of a place for everyone else. And sometimes that place where you can settle in for everyone else if you don't have this massive following is in a single subject book that could be your expertise or deep, deeply researched. I don't necessarily think that's so much a trend as it is something that like ebbs and flows.Sally Ekus:And we see a little bit more of on the cookbook shelf because they've always been there. But now people can nerd out on one thing and they'll go to the cookbook shelf because the food scene just in the zeitgeist has become so popular. There's strawberry earrings and I've got a sweater with cherries on it. So why not a book about just sesame? It's really a time to celebrate ingredients and food.Stephanie:When you are on like Instagram or TikTok and you're trying to relax, like you're not working. And I know that's really hard to even do.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Are you following like other creators and other spaces and thinking like, gee, how are they doing this or does that work for you?Sally Ekus:Well, I would, I would just clarify that I don't go on social to relax, but and also I'm almost always working. However, to answer your actual question, I have. Most of the people I follow outside of the food space are in the body inclusivity, body positivity space. I follow some fashion people that are highly inclusive, plus size fashion people that have completely changed my relationship to even the fact that I've said fashion on a podcast interview. I just never would have been that person a while ago. But it's offered me an opportunity to see like color and textures and textiles and just the lifestyle of how we have a relationship to our closet In a new way. Also the home and space, you know, I sometimes represent outside of the cookbook shelf. And so I like to say that I, I represent the home with a focus on the kitchen, but I also, you know, hang out in the living room and I have a tiny human, so I hang out with the kids space.Sally Ekus:And so it's just focusing on other rooms at the home at times has been really fun too. So that's kind of where I dabble on social as well.Stephanie:Speaking of kids, I don't know why this comes to mind, but I always get asked, you know, what are the cookbooks that you should be buying for kids and better homes or not. Betty Crocker's Boys and Girls is still like a best selling book, right?Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And then there's one other one that I'm going to not think of the name right off the top of my head, but there feels like there is kind of an empty space in Cooking with Kids and Cooking with Families.Sally Ekus:Yeah, there's a few. So I love the ATK books. I think it's a great brand. They've got great recipes for Cooking with Kids. Deanna Cook, who is a story publishing author, has a bunch of kids books that are awesome. And for me, I think sometimes it's not that there's like a lack of. It's just that there's still space for. And the tricky part about pitching and representing those books or selling them is it, is, is it a book for cooking with kids? Is it a book for kids to cook from? You know, and those are different age groups and those are different recipe styles.Sally Ekus:So much down to like the page and the format and the illustrations or the pictures or the how to steps. So there's just so many practical considerations and logistical ones that it's a slightly trickier category, but one that we've, we, we've dabbled in a little bit and there's some great books and I think a lot of space for, for others. The author of Indian Ish did a kids cookbook as well that I found really fun and just wonderful recipes. I forget the name of the book off the top of my head.Stephanie:That Indian Ish was a really cool cookbook.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:There's been some just beautiful, texturally colorful books written by people from more diverse backgrounds. And while it seems like we see a ton of that right now, and we are, it is fairly new in the last 10 years.Sally Ekus:It has become magnified and intensified though our agency. And kudos to Lisa for carving out her space as a Literary agent representing underrepresented voices from the get go. It's been a part of the ethos of our agency since day one. And so to see publishers in the past 10 years really prioritizing marginalized voices is amazing. And also a little about time, you know?Stephanie:Yeah.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Okay. Kind of a controversial question. Sometimes people in the media can be a little snooty about influencers and about social media in particular, because I think they feel maybe like people are treading on their. Their authority of space. Yeah, you get people that feel snarky sometimes about, like, oh, they're an influencer. It's another influencer cookbook and kind of eye rolling because there are some not so great cookbooks written by really good content creators, but maybe they're not great at putting it all in a book format or maybe the recipes aren't necessarily great. Once they get past that beautiful shot, do you think that there'll be, like, almost a backlash to this whole genre, as it were?Sally Ekus:I don't know that it would necessarily be a backlash in that a lot of the creator led books, both the great ones and the more challenging ones. I think the positive outcome of all of those books is that it has put this spotlight on food and the cookbook shelf. And I think the more people who are interested in what books are on the cookbook shelf, the better. What I do feel, and I've already started feeling this as an agent, is that the shift back to experts or an evolution to what is the next version of people that have really robust followings, capturing their audience in a meaningful way and delivering content that rings true to that audience and honors what the industry is looking for. I'm already hearing that shift from acquiring editors from publishers that I work really closely with and even in my own scouting. So I feel like we are moving towards the. Thank you very much for bringing a spotlight to the shelf. And where are we going and how can we all support the industry at large and.Stephanie:And the trend that we're talking about or hearing about is more expertise, you know, more of a microscope on something in more detail.Sally Ekus:Exactly, yeah. Which is so fun. I mean, more interest, more books, more. More food, more deep dives.Stephanie:And also, like, I mean, we just start scratching the surface about, like, my husband and I are working on books about place of food. So, like, we've written a fiction book about Croatia that has recipe as a component to it.Sally Ekus:I'm seeing a lot more crossover among different genres, even between fiction and nonfiction. I was just pitched a proposal, probably the first Maybe it's the second one that has sort of a fictional component to it. And I, you know, I don't represent fiction. That's for my colleagues at the agency and other agents in the industry. But it is fun to see how food has like penetrated every aspect of our lives and it's just delightful.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm super excited about that. In just my personal journey, it's keeping it fresh and interesting.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:You know, my husband is a writer as a fiction writer. And for us to like collaborate on a project together in a way that I know what my lane is and he knows what his lane is is pretty fun.Sally Ekus:Well, I think that's one of the many gifts that have come out of this like creator led book or just like the, the intensification of food in the zeitgeist is that people who are, who are an expert in a certain culinary topic could be a consultant on a novel or who knows, you know what I mean? And it's just, it's blowing the fridge doors wide open.Stephanie:I feel like it's sort of like the white lotus effect for books and cooking and food generally that put that lens on travel and exotic locales. And I just feel like that's the next thing and I'm gonna be there, I promise.Sally Ekus:Cool. Well, it is, it's so fun to just see our beloved culinary space be celebrated across, across genres and like just.Stephanie:To get back to as a little kid going into a bookstore or going into the library and just the joy of, you know, books have been under attack for the last 20 years as the Amazonification of the world has happened. But we're seeing in Minneapolis in particular, like lots of local bookstores are opening again and people are making them multi purpose. So they might be selling cooking things, but also they might have a coffee shop, they might do pastry.Sally Ekus:Yeah, my. One of my favorite recommendations for authors or aspiring authors or just dear friends is to go to your local independent bookstore and talk to the people that work there and ideally talk to the owner and the people who make the decisions about what books to bring in. It is a wildly fascinating conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, it's the best part about a book tour for me is actually like getting to talk to the people that recommend and sell the books and then.Sally Ekus:Also buy books there. Not. I think that's implied, but you never know.Stephanie:Yes. Sally, it's been a delight to talk to you. Thank you for joining the program today. I'll put links to your substack, also your information. If I don't know if anyone's listening is thinking about pitches, but if you are.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I have really comprehensive nonfiction book proposal guidelines that definitely pertain to those looking to write food books, but also are really applicable to anyone that's looking to learn about publishing. So that's a great link to share. And thank you so much for having me on.Stephanie:Yeah, it's great. And keep pitching me your authors. You have good authors. And the books. Beth was a joy.Sally Ekus:Oh, thanks.Stephanie:All right, we'll talk soon.Sally Ekus:Okay, bye.Stephanie:Okay, bye. Bye.Stephanie's Dish Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

Do you ever find yourself spinning a million plates while trying to rock both motherhood and business?

Joël and Stephanie talk RailsConf! (https://railsconf.org/). Joël shares how he performed as a D&D character, Glittersense the gnome, to make his Turbo features talk entertaining and interactive. Stephanie's talk focused on addressing test pain by connecting it to code coupling, offering practical insights and solutions. They agree on the importance of continuous improvement as speakers and developers and trying new approaches in talks and code design, and recommend Jared Norman's RailsConf talk on design patterns, too! That One Thing: Reduce Coupling for More Scalable and Sustainable Software (https://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2222816) Connascence.io (https://connascence.io/) [Connascence as a vocabulary to discuss coupling](https://thoughtbot.com/blog/connascence-as-a-vocabulary-to-discuss-coupling](https://thoughtbot.com/blog/connascence-as-a-vocabulary-to-discuss-coupling) The value of specialized vocabulary (https://bikeshed.thoughtbot.com/356?t=0) Transcript: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue.  JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. STEPHANIE: And I'm Stephanie Minn. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So, I think I can speak for both of us and say what's new in our world is that you and I just came back from RailsConf in Detroit. JOËL: Yeah, we were there for, I guess, it's a three-day conference. Both of us were giving talks. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I don't think we've both spoken at a conference for at least a little over a year, so that was really fun kind of to catch up in person. And there was a whole crew of thoughtboters who were there. Yeah, I feel like we were hanging out, like, a lot [chuckles] all of last week, just seeing each other, talking about, you know, rehearsing our talks and spending time together on...there was, like, a hack day, and we were sitting at the table together. So, I feel like I'm totally caught up on everything that's new in your world, and that's it. That's the end of the show [laughs]. JOËL: On that note, shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: [laughs] That would not be very fair to our listeners. [laughter] JOËL: Yeah. So, how was the conference speaking experience for you? STEPHANIE: Ooh, it was really great this year. I have not spoken at a RailsConf before, so this was actually, I think, a bigger stage than I had experienced before, and I had a great time. I met Ruby friends, new and old, and, yeah, I left feeling very gooeyed, and very energized, and just so grateful for the Rails community [laughs]. Yeah, I had a very lovely time, kind of being a little bit outside my normal life for a few days. And I think my favorite part about these things is just like, anywhere you go, you can kind of just have a shared interest with someone, and you can start a conversation with them. JOËL: That's really interesting. Do you find yourself just reaching out to strangers at conferences like this? Or do you tend to just hang out with the people that you know? STEPHANIE: Oh, I think a little bit of both. I like to get meals with people I know. But if I'm just hanging out in, like, the lobby or if I happen to get a seat for a talk and I'm sitting next to someone that I don't know, I find it quite easy to just be like, "Hi, like, I'm Stephanie. Are you excited for this talk?" Or, like, "What good talks have you seen recently?" There's an aspect of, like, the social butterfly that comes out of me when I'm at these things. Because I just don't get to have, like, easy access to, I don't know, people with, like, that shared interest or people who are willing to just have a conversation with you normally, I think. JOËL: Yeah, would you describe yourself more as an introvert or an extrovert? STEPHANIE: I am an extroverted introvert [laughter]. I feel like maybe that might be interpreted as a non-answer, but I think I lean more on the introvert side. But you know when you're with a group of people, and there's not, like, a very clear extrovert in that conversation, and then you're like, oh, I have to do the heavy [chuckles] lifting of the social lubrication [laughs] in this conversation, I can step into that role, reluctantly [laughs]. JOËL: Okay. I like the label that you used, the extrovert introvert, in that I enjoy social situations. I do well in social situations. But they also consume a lot of energy for me. I don't necessarily get sort of recharged by doing social events. So, people will be surprised when they find out that I tend to talk about myself as an introvert because, like, "Oh, but you're, like, you know, you're not awkward. You engage very well in different group situations." STEPHANIE: You have a podcast [laughs]. JOËL: And the truth is I enjoy those things, right? I really like social interaction, but it does, after a while, wear me out. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that makes sense. I did want to spend a little bit of time talking about the talk you gave at RailsConf this year: "Dungeons & Dragons & Rails." JOËL: I got to have a lot of fun with the theme. The actual content was introducing people to Turbo by building an interactive Dungeons & Dragons character sheet using vanilla Rails and a little bit of Turbo. So, we're not even writing any JavaScript. We're just using the Turbo helpers, a little bit of Action Cable to mimic something a little bit like...people who are in the know might be familiar with the site D&D Beyond, which is kind of the official D&D online character sheet website. Of course, it wasn't anywhere near as fancy because it's a 30-minute talk and showcasing different features, but that's what we were aiming for. STEPHANIE: Yeah, you know, you've talked a bit about giving talks on the show before, but I wanted to get into what made this one different because I think it could be fun for our listeners. [laughter] JOËL: The way I structured this talk so it has a theme. It's about Dungeons & Dragons, and we're building a character sheet. The way I wrote the talk was it's broken up into chapters. Each chapter is teaching a new feature in Turbo that I want to show off. In order to motivate learning each of these features...because I don't like to just say, "Oh, here's a thing that technology can do. Oh, here's a thing that technology can do." That's boring. You need a reason to learn that. So, I needed a reason to say, "We need to add this to a character sheet." So, every sort of chapter of the talk opens up with a little narrative portion. We're following this character, Glittersense, the gnome, and he's on adventures. And at different points in the adventures, he's going to do different types of roles or need different stats and things. And so, when we reach the point in the adventure where we need that, we sort of freeze frame and then say, "Okay, let's add that as a feature to the character sheet." And then, oh no, it turns out that this feature is a little bit more complicated. We're going to have to learn a new Turbo feature to do that. Who would have guessed? And then, we learn a new Turbo feature together. And then, we go back to the narrative portion. The adventures of Glittersense continue. And then, oh no, we're going to need to add another feature to the character sheet. And that's sort of how the talk is structured. STEPHANIE: Yeah. And you did a really cool thing with the narrative portions, which was you basically performed as Glittersense, the gnome, voice and posture, and a lot of really great acting from you [laughs], in my opinion. JOËL: That is something that came out pretty late in the talk preparation. So, I knew I wanted this kind of alternating story and code structure. Then, like, the weekend before RailsConf, I'm running through my slide deck, and I realized, you know what? What if instead of narrating Glittersense's adventures, what if I went first person for those sections? Glittersense tells his own story. And then, from there, it wasn't a big jump to say, you know what? This is D&D. If I'm going first person and narrating, I really should do a voice. And this is a conversation I had with a couple of people at the speaker dinner. And, of course, everyone's like, "You should 100% do the voice." And I was really not feeling confident in my ability to pull it off. So, for the next two nights, because I was speaking on the third day, the next two nights at the conference, in the evenings, I'm in the hotel room in front of the mirror just practicing my gnome voice to try to get something that got the persona of Glitterense, the gnome, across to the audience. STEPHANIE: How would you describe the persona? JOËL: Very extra. STEPHANIE: [laughs] JOËL: Very high energy. STEPHANIE: Yes. The name Glittersense is very extra, after all. JOËL: [laughs]. I punctuated a lot of the things that he says with just high-pitched laughter. He's also...so, the framing device for all of this is that you're in a tavern listening to him tell his adventures. I wanted a little bit of the sense that Glittersense is maybe embellishing a little bit. I think it may be too much to say he's full of himself, but he's definitely making himself to be the hero of the story, and maybe making himself to be slightly cooler than he really was. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I definitely got, like, a little bit of eccentricity, too, from the persona. And you know when you just, I don't know, meet an older person who has, like, a lot of life experience, and they want to tell you about it [laughter], but you do kind of maybe have a little bit of suspicion around how much they're exaggerating [laughs]. But it was really fun. Everyone I talked to afterwards, like, loved it. And I got to share the little nugget that, like, oh yeah, and Joël only, like, started doing the voice, like, decided that he was going to do it two days ago. And they were just all really, like, blown away because it seemed so well practiced, and it was really fun. JOËL: I got to do something really fun, also, with physical space because Glittersense narrates his portion, sort of the story portions, but then the code portions where we're talking about Turbo, I'm talking in my own voice. And so, when I'm talking about Turbo, I'm standing at the lectern. And when I'm Glittersense, I'm kind of off to the side on the stage and doing the voice. And so, there's this almost, like, two worlds that are inhabited: one by Joël, the speaker, and one by Glittersense, the gnome. And it got to the point where I don't say or do anything. I only move from the lectern to the, like, portion of the stage where Glittersense lives. And the audience starts chuckling and, like, nothing has happened yet, like, no jokes have been told. No voice has happened. No slides have changed. But the anticipation, people know what's coming. STEPHANIE: Yeah. And I think the best part, what I really found just really fun and, I don't know, every time it happened, I just really enjoyed it, when you transitioned out of Glittersense, the gnome, and back to Joël because you were so nonchalant about it. You kind of, like, straighten up rather than having your little kind of crouchy gnome posture, and then just walk across back to the podium. And then, in your normal voice, go back to just, you know, sharing very...not necessarily dry, but just, like, straight to the point. "And this is, like, how you, you know, create a frame in [laughs] Turbo," as if nothing happened [laughs] when even just, like, you know, 20 seconds ago, you were just enthusing about, like, slaying the bandit, chieftain [laughter] known as Glittersense. JOËL: Uh-huh. I think, especially when I open, so I get introduced. I'm off stage. I walk onto the stage, and I'm immediately Glittersense. And I'm telling a story, and the intro goes on for, like, quite a while. It's a big story chunk. And then, at some point, I just walk over to the lectern, drop the voice, hit next slide, and it's my title slide. I'm just like, "Okay, now welcome to Dungeons & Dragons on Rails. We're going to build a character sheet together." STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's exactly the moment I'm thinking of. JOËL: The walking in as Glittersense and just immediately going to the voice caught everyone by surprise. And then, the, like, oh, he keeps going for this. Is the whole talk going to be like this? And then, the, like, just when you think, oh, he's really going for it, the, like, dropping it and going to the podium and title slide. It wasn't intended to be a funny moment, but I think the contrast and the fact that I just switched over was one of the biggest laughs I got. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I mean, I think that attests to how good the delivery of it was because that contrast was very felt. So, props to you. JOËL: I love the idea of, you know, the thought that you put into building a talk and, like, the narrative structure and the pedagogy of the stuff. And, I think, in this particular case, this is almost like a narrative approach called in media res, where you start kind of in the middle. You open your book, or your movie, or whatever in the middle of the story. And then, you kind of come back to the beginning at some point later. So, it starts with some kind of action scene that grabs your attention. So, in this case, my title slide is 10, 15 slides into the talk. We get immediately started with Glittersense and his adventures. And then, once we're sort of all bought into this world, then we move to the title slide and talk about, okay, we're here to build a character sheet and all that stuff. And I think that it wouldn't have had the same impact if I'd, like, opened with that and then gone into Glittersense's adventures. And that's something that was not the case at the beginning. I really reworked the talk to make it in that order. And I think that the talk had a lot more impact for doing that. STEPHANIE: Yeah, definitely. I guess I also just wanted to point out that this is very different from all your other talks. And I think it's really cool that, you know, you are a veteran speaker, but you still find ways to do something new and try something that you've never done before, and yeah, find ways, new ways to, like, speak and engage people and teach. I don't know, do you have just any thoughts about why or how you got into a position to be like, "Oh, you know, I'm going to do something super different this time around" [laughs]? JOËL: So, every talk I give, I try to do something new, something different, to push myself as a speaker to get better. That might be in the writing of the talk; that might be in the delivery. More recently, I've been trying to do more with dynamic presence on stage. So, when I spoke at RubyConf San Diego, I was trying to not just stand at the lectern but to learn to be able to give my talk while also, you know, walking around the stage, looking at the audience, making pauses where it's necessary, not to just be so into the delivery of the talk by just standing at the podium and, like, going through my deck, which is a small thing but I think is an area I wanted to improve in. This time, I was playing around with some more narrative framing and ended up, yeah, like, pushing it to an extreme. And it works with the theme because inhabiting a character and role-playing is the core part of D&D. Not everybody plays a D&D character by doing a voice. You are a little bit extra if you do that. But it's not uncommon for people to do a voice. And so, it kind of fit perfectly with my theme. I just needed to get the self-confidence to do it. So, thank you to everyone at the speaker dinner that was like, "No, you totally got this. You should do this," because I was feeling very unsure. STEPHANIE: It really paid off, so... JOËL: I'd like to circle back to your talk, though. So, you gave, basically, the first talk of the conference. You were the first session after the keynote. A theme that came up multiple times in your talk was this idea of coupling and how it affects different parts of our code and, particularly the way that we structure tests or the way that we feel test pain. How did you, when you were prepping this talk, discover that theme and decide to lift it up? Was that something that you knew ahead of time you wanted to talk about, or did it just sort of emerge as part of the talk preparation process? STEPHANIE: That's a really great question, and I'm glad you picked up on that. So, my talk was called: "So, Writing Tests Feels Painful. What Now?" Originally, when I came up with this idea, it actually started with coupling. I realized that I wanted to give a talk about coupling because it's just something that I was struggling with or, like, had seen other people struggle with and really wanting kind of a discrete resource, wanting to provide that. But as I was just thinking about it, I was like, oh, like, there are so many different ways that this could go. On one hand, it was a very like important topic to me, but also maybe too big of a topic. And so, I actually, like, kind of put that on the back burner. And it wasn't until later when I connected it to another...it wasn't necessarily different at all, but just, like, an extension of this idea is, oh, like, people are struggling with coupling in tests or, like, it manifests in tests. And so, I thought maybe that could be the angle that I took on this topic that kind of gave me a little bit more focus. And I didn't even end up saying like, "Yeah, this talk was, like, born out of just, you know, wrestling with coupling or anything like that." So, it's cool, to me, that you picked up on it as a theme because it was...I had, you know, ended up not being super explicit about it, but it was certainly, like, a thing that was driving the content from my perspective. JOËL: Interesting. So, it started as a coupling talk and then got sort of focused through the lens of testing. STEPHANIE: Yeah. And I think there was a part of me that was like, you know, I don't know if I could just teach the concept of coupling, like, by itself without the framing of testing for people who this is, like, a new concept for them. I realized that maybe it would be more effective to be like, "Hey, like, have you experienced test pain? You know, have you had to mock out a billion objects or changed, you know, made one change and then had to fix, like, a million tests subsequently? Then this talk is for you." And then weave in the idea of coupling in it to kind of start to help people feel familiar with it or just, like, identify it without as much, like, jargon as kind of I've seen when I've tried to figure out, like, how to manage it. JOËL: It's interesting because I think it gives you a, like, concrete, valuable thing to optimize for as opposed to, like, hey, let's lower coupling because then you're writing, you know, quote, unquote, "better code." And you get to feel better about yourself as a programmer because you're doing things the, quote, unquote, "right way." That's very kind of hand-wavy, and I think sometimes leads people down a bad path where they're optimizing things that they shouldn't be. But the tests give you this very concrete way to say, "Hey, we're not just trying to reach the, like, low score record for the app in terms of coupling. We're trying to reduce test pain. Tests are painful. And that pain is telling us something. It's telling us that we've crossed some sort of threshold for coupling. Let's find ways to reduce it, not so that we can feel good about ourselves, but so that our tests are actually manageable." STEPHANIE: Yeah, I am really glad you picked up on that, too, because I feel the exact same way when someone just tells me to decouple something or, like, makes a note that, like, oh, this feels really coupled. I don't know what that means necessarily. And it's not very convincing to just be like, "Oh, you should write loosely coupled code [laughs]," at least for me. What you said just now, it's like, it's not to feel good about ourselves, you know, to write code that way, but, actually, to just feel good about our code, period [laughs]. And, yeah, finding that validation through just, like, actually working with code that is easier to change that is the goal, not necessarily to, yeah, kind of pursue some totally subjective, like, metric. JOËL: So, one of the kinds of coupling that you called out, I think, was where you hardcode a class name of some other class in your object. And that feels, like, really sort of innocuous. Like, of course, my objects can talk to other objects. And maybe I want to, like, refer to a class somewhere. Why is that such a like tricky piece of coupling to work with? STEPHANIE: It's not necessarily intentional sometimes. Like, you just do it because you're like, well, I need access to this class somewhere, and I happen to already be in this file. So, why not just hard-code it here? I do think it's a little tricky because the file that you're writing might be, like, very far down in, like, your code flow or, like, your code path, like, very far from, like, a controller or any kind of entry point into your system, at least based on what I've seen in a lot of modern Rails apps. And so, I think that coupling gets really, really obscured. I have found that, like, if I have to kind of write a more, like, a higher level test, like, maybe a request spec or something, there are times when I'm, like, having to deal with a lot of classes just to set stuff up in a test like that that I didn't think I would have to [chuckles] when I first went about trying to just be like, oh, like, let's just figure out how to get a 200 response [laughs] from this request. So, you're really burying perhaps the things that are needed to set up, like, that full path of execution. And sometimes, it only comes out when you're writing a test for it. JOËL: And you mentioned briefly, in passing, the idea that oftentimes this sort of coupling manifests as a lot of extra test setup because your object that you're trying to test now also needs all these other things that are related in order to be tested. But sometimes even when you hard code a class, though, you can't even just say, "Oh, I want this particular user or something returned." So, you have to then do something like allow this class to receive class method and return, and now you're stubbing. And I don't know how you feel about stubs in RSpec. I always treat them a little bit like a code smell in the like classic sense of it's not necessarily bad, but maybe pause, take a look, and ask yourself, "Why is that there, and should I do things differently?" STEPHANIE: Yeah. I ended up having, like, a lot of examples of stubbing in my example because the code had just been set up where that was the only way that you could access those collaborators, essentially, to, like, make an assertion on them, or have them do something different because you actually needed to go into a different path, right? And I was like, yeah, this should feel weird. You should feel a little bad [laughs] or at least, you know, kind of just pay attention to that feeling, even if you can't really do anything about it in that particular instance. But on the flip side, you know, it's like, yes, it feels a bit strange, you know, but it's not all bad, right? Like, you're kind of learning like, oh, hey, like, I am coupled to this hard-coded class because I am needing to stub, like, a class method that returns it, or that constructs it. And at least you've exposed that, you know, for yourself. One thing that I was running into a lot in my example, too, was that those things, like, weren't obvious when you were just reading maybe, like, the public methods and trying to figure out what was happening in them because they were wrapped in private methods. I was a little bit conflicted about this because there were times when it was already just a single method call, but then it was just kind of wrapped in a private method that actually hid [laughs] the things, like all the dependencies that were passed as arguments. And I found that to be, sure, it looks kind of cleaner. But then all you need to do is scroll down [laughs], and then you're like, oh, actually, there's all these other things involved, but it was kind of hidden away for me. And I found that, actually, like, at least when I actually needed to change things, less helpful than I imagine what the, you know, code author intended. Do you have any thoughts about hiding details like that? JOËL: I'm kind of a big fan. STEPHANIE: Hmmm. JOËL: The general idea, I think, is called the single level of abstraction principle. Whatever sort of public method that you're calling is often implemented in terms of...let's say it does a few different things. It's implemented in terms of, like, these sort of high-level concepts. So, whoever is reading the public method doesn't need to like care about the details of how each step is implemented. So, maybe you're fetching something from an API, and then you're making a database call, and then you're doing some transformation and creating some new objects from it. Having all of the, like, HTTP calls and the ActiveRecord stuff and the, like, transformation all in the public method, yes, there's a lot of complexity happening there, and it makes that obvious. But it also makes it really hard to get a sense of what is happening. So, I like to say, "Hey, there are four steps. Let's wrap them all each in a private method then you can call all of those in the public method." The public method now sort of reads like a very simple sort of script. First, fetch data from the HTTP API, then fetch some data from the database, then apply this transformation, then create this object. And if I'm mostly caring about what this object does and not the how let's say I'm building some other objects that interact with this, that is the information I want to know. Where I care about the actual implementation of, oh, well, exactly how is the ActiveRecord stuff done when I'm doing internal changes to the object, that's when I care about those private methods. I think where it gets tricky, and I think that's the point that you were bringing up, is that if you write code in that way, it has to change the heuristics of how you read code to detect complexity. Because, oftentimes, I think a very classic heuristic for code complexity is just line length. If you have a 50-line method, probably there's a lot of complexity there. Maybe there's a lot of coupling. If it's a four-line method that is written at a high level of abstraction that just calls out to private methods, you scan over. You're like, oh, nice and clean. Nothing to see here. Move on. And so, that heuristic doesn't really hold up in a codebase where you're applying this single level of abstraction. Do you think that lines up with your experience? STEPHANIE: Hmm. As I was listening to you, I was like, yeah, like, that makes total sense to me. But then I also clearly disagreed a little bit [laughs] in my initial...kind of what I was saying initially. And I think it's because that single layer of abstraction was not very well defined. JOËL: Hmm. That's fair. STEPHANIE: Yeah. Where, in fact, it was actually misleading. Like, it wanted to be at that level of abstraction, but it really wasn't. Like, it was operating on things at, like, a lower level and wasn't designed with that kind of readability in mind. So, it was more, like, it was just hiding stuff a little bit, at least for me. And, I think, it certainly would have taken, like, more work to figure out what that code, like, really was meant to convey. It might have taken some refactoring to coalesce at that single level. And that was essentially kind of what I was showing in my talk as, like, how to get to saying, like, "Hey, we actually are operating in the lower level, but I don't think we need to." There was some amount of, like, looking at all of the how to figure out, like, oh, maybe these things we don't even need to expose in this class. And we kind of got to a place where those details weren't, like, needed in that class at all. So, it's one of those things where it's harder than it sounds [laughs]. JOËL: It's definitely an art. STEPHANIE: Yeah. JOËL: And I think what you're saying about some of the coupling being, like, scattered throughout the class, it's something that I see a lot with situations where you're coupled, not so much to, like, a single class, but to something side effectful. So, you're building some kind of integration with a third-party API, and you're going to have to make a lot of HTTP calls. And each of those might be individually simple, and they're all sort of maybe in different private methods or whatever, or they're interspersed among a larger chunk of logic. And that makes your tests really complicated. But there's no, like, one place you can point at and be like, ooh, that's the one place where there's a lot of complexity. What's happening here, though, is that your business object that's doing stuff is coupled to the network, and that coupling is going to force you to do some stubbing. It's going to force you to deal with a bunch of side effects that are non-deterministic in your code. And you used the word coalesce earlier that I really liked because I think that's often a situation where you do have to stand back and say, "Look, there's a lot of HTTP going on here. What if I coalesced it all into an object? Now I have two objects: one that's responsible for business logic, and one that's responsible for just the HTTP calls." And, all of a sudden, the tests just totally simplify. And we've removed some coupling, but that's not something that you would have seen just from reading the code. Because, as you were saying, it's sort of scattered in little bits and pieces throughout your file that don't necessarily catch your eye. STEPHANIE: Yeah. Which brings me to a blog post that I had found a lot of inspiration from in the talk that I'll link. It's called "That One Thing: Reduce Coupling for More Scalable and Sustainable Software." But it's actually about tests [laughs], even though it doesn't make an appearance in the title of the blog post at all. But this is where I kind of got the idea of necessary versus unnecessary coupling in test. Because I had never thought about how, yeah, like, when you write a test, you are very correctly coupling yourself to at least the method and class under test [laughs], if not also the arguments, right? Or anything else needed to construct what you're testing. And literally having that listed out for me in this blog post I think it's a...they use some examples in Java. And so, there's, like, a little bit more [laughs] setup involved. But I think they're like, yeah, these are six things that, like, it's mostly fine if you're coupled to these because that's kind of what needs to happen in a test. But, like, even having something to compare a test I wrote to just, like, okay, these are the things I know I need. And then, you can start to see when you've diverged from that list, when you are finding yourself coupled to some internals of your class. I really...that was actually, like, really helpful for me because, as we talked about earlier, like, it can be kind of communicated so abstractly. But here is, like, a very clear heuristic for when you should at least, like, start to pay attention or be like, oh, this is something that was needed to get the test to run but is now starting to feel a little unnecessary because it's not on this list. JOËL: That list reminds me, or the idea of a list of things to check out for when thinking about coupling, reminds me of the concept of connascence, which is a fancy word for almost a, like, categorization of different types of coupling because coupling comes in different flavors, some of which are tighter forms of coupling than others. And so, having that vocabulary has been really helpful for me when I'm looking at PRs and code review, or even when I'm refactoring my own code. Kind of like that list that you mentioned that you have, now I have some heuristics to look at that and say, "Oh, can I go from a connascence of position to a connascence of naming, and does that help me?" STEPHANIE: Yeah, I like that you mentioned the positional connascence because I also came across a really great metaphor for kind of things that need to change together, like, when that makes sense. And it was basically the idea of a dishwasher and a laundry machine [laughs]. I wish I could recall, like, what book this was from. But it was basically like, oh yeah, like, in theory, you're washing two things. So, maybe they are similar, but then you're like, no, actually, you want these to be a little bit separate because, you know, you don't want to wash your dishes and your clothes in the same machine. I don't know, maybe that exists [laughs], but I don't think it would do a very good job for either goal. And I think that was really helpful, for me, in imagining, like, the difference between kind of coupling and cohesion, like things that...even just imagining, like, kind of where I'm doing those things in the house, right? It's like, okay, that lives in a separate room. And, like, the kitchen is for the dishes, and that could be like, you know, a module if you will. And, like, laundry happens in the laundry room, and how to kind of just separate those things, even though they also do share some qualities, too. Like, they're both appliances, right? And so, that's the way that they are similar, but they're not the same. JOËL: You just mentioned the sort of keyword cohesion. And for our listeners who are not familiar with that term, it refers to an object sort of having one thing that it does well. Like, everything in that class sort of works towards the same goal, kind of similar to the idea of the single responsibility principle. So, in my earlier example, where we're sort of interspersing some business logic, a lot of HTTP requests, and pulling out an object that's focused on HTTP, like everything is based around that, now that object has higher cohesion because it's all doing one thing. So, if you read classic object-oriented literature, the recommendations that you'll typically see are that objects should have high cohesion and low coupling. STEPHANIE: Yeah. Think of a dishwasher and a washing machine next time [laughs] you come across something like that. Because I feel like those are really great, like, real-life examples of that separation. JOËL: Did you go to Jared Norman's talk on the third day: "Undervalued: The Most Useful Design Pattern"? STEPHANIE: No, I didn't. Can you tell me about it? JOËL: It felt like he was addressing a lot of the same themes as you were but from more of a code perspective than a test perspective. Talking a lot about, again, forms of coupling, dependencies, and then, specifically, one of the tools that he focused on to reduce the coupling that we see is value objects and factory methods to construct those. So, for any of our listeners who, when the talks come out, watch Stephanie's talk and are like, "Wow, I would love to learn more about this," a great follow-up, Jared Norman's talk: "Undervalued: The Most Useful Design Pattern." STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's neat because I can see that being a solution to the hard code did class names that we were talking about earlier. And I like how that is kind of, like, a progressive lesson in coupling a little bit. I'm really glad you shared that talk with me because now I'm excited to watch it when it comes out. And in general, I just love learning new vocabulary or finding new ways to speak about this topic with clarity. So, if any of our listeners have just additional mental models for coupling [laughs] different metaphors, different household appliances [laughs], or something like that, I would love to know. JOËL: You would like that, given that our first episode together was about "The Value Of Specialized Vocabulary." STEPHANIE: Yeah, it's clearly undervalued. JOËL: Haha, I see what you did there. STEPHANIE: Thank you. Thank you very much [laughs]. JOËL: On that terrible/wonderful pun, shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!! AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Stephanie shares an intriguing discovery about the origins of design patterns in software, tracing them back to architect Christopher Alexander's ideas in architecture. Joël is an official member of the Boston bike share system, and he loves it. He even got a notification on the app this week: "Congratulations. You have now visited 10% of all docking stations in the Boston metro area." #AchievementUnlocked, Joël! Joël and Stephanie transition into a broader discussion on data modeling within software systems, particularly how entities like companies, employees, and devices interconnect within a database. They debate the semantics of database relationships and the practical implications of various database design decisions, providing insights into the complexities of backend development. Christopher Alexander and Design Patterns (https://www.designsystems.com/christopher-alexander-the-father-of-pattern-language/) Rails guide to choosing between belongsto and hasone (https://edgeguides.rubyonrails.org/association_basics.html#choosing-between-belongs-to-and-has-one) Making impossible states impossible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcgmSRJHu_8) Transcript: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions, or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue. JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. STEPHANIE: And I'm Stephanie Minn. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So, I learned a very interesting tidbit. I don't know if it's historical; I don't know if I would label it that. But, I recently learned about where the idea of design patterns in software came from. Are you familiar with that at all? JOËL: I read an article about that a while back, and I forget exactly, but there is, like, a design patterns movement, I think, that predates the software world. STEPHANIE: Yeah, exactly. So, as far as I understand it, there is an architect named Christopher Alexander, and he's kind of the one who proposed this idea of a pattern language. And he developed these ideas from the lens of architecture and building spaces. And he wrote a book called A Pattern Language that compiles, like, all these time-tested solutions to how to create spaces that meet people's needs, essentially. And I just thought that was really neat that software design adopted that philosophy, kind of taking a lot of these interdisciplinary ideas and bringing them into something technical. But also, what I was really compelled by was that the point of these patterns is to make these spaces comfortable and enjoyable for humans. And I have that same feeling evoked when I'm in a codebase that's really well designed, and I am just, like, totally comfortable in it, and I can kind of understand what's going on and know how to navigate it. That's a very visceral feeling, I think. JOËL: I love the kind of human-centric approach that you're using and the language that you're using, right? A place that is comfortable for humans. We want that for our homes. It's kind of nice in our codebases, too. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I have really enjoyed this framing because instead of just saying like, "Oh, it's quote, unquote, "best practice" to follow these design patterns," it kind of gives me more of a reason. It's more of a compelling reason to me to say like, "Following these design patterns makes the codebase, like, easier to navigate, or easier to change, or easier to work with." And that I can get kind of on board with rather than just saying, "This way is, like, the better way, or the superior way, or the way to do things." JOËL: At the end of the day, design patterns are a means to an end. They're not an end in of itself. And I think that's where it's very easy to get into trouble is where you're just sort of, I don't know, trying to rack up engineering points, I guess, for using a lot of design patterns, and they're not necessarily in service to some broader goal. STEPHANIE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like the way you put that. When you said that, for some reason, I was thinking about catching Pokémon or something like filling your Pokédex [laughs] with all the different design patterns. And it's not just, you know, like you said, to check off those boxes, but for something that is maybe a little more meaningful than that. JOËL: You're just trying to, like, hit the completionist achievement on the design patterns. STEPHANIE: Yeah, if someone ever reaches that, you know, gets that achievement trophy, let me know [laughs]. JOËL: Can I get a badge on GitHub for having PRs that use every single Gang of Four pattern? STEPHANIE: Anyway, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: So, on the topic of completing things and getting badges for them, I am a part of the Boston bike share...project makes it sound like it's a, I don't know, an exclusive club. It's Boston's bike share system. I have a subscription with them, and I love it. It's so practical. You can go everywhere. You don't have to worry about, like, a bike getting stolen or something because, like, you drop it off at a docking station, and then it's not your responsibility anymore. Yeah, it's very convenient. I love it. I got a notification on the app this week that said, "Congratulations. You have now visited 10% of all docking stations in the Boston metro area." STEPHANIE: Whoa, that's actually a pretty cool accomplishment. JOËL: I didn't even know they tracked that, and it's kind of cool. And the achievement shows me, like, here are all the different stations you've visited. STEPHANIE: You know what I think would be really fun? Is kind of the equivalent of a Spotify Wrapped, but for your biking in a year kind of around the city. JOËL: [laughs] STEPHANIE: That would be really neat, I think, just to be like, oh yeah, like, I took this bike trip here. Like, I docked at this station to go meet up with a friend in this neighborhood. Yeah, I think that would be really fun [laughs]. JOËL: You definitely see some patterns come up, right? You're like, oh yeah, well, you know, this is my commute into work every day. Or this is that one friend where, you know, every Tuesday night, we go and do this thing. STEPHANIE: Yeah, it's almost like a travelogue by bike. JOËL: Yeah. I'll bet there's a lot of really interesting information that could surface from that. It might be a little bit disturbing to find out that a company has that data on you because you can, like, pick up so much. STEPHANIE: That's -- JOËL: But it's also kind of fun to look at it. And you mentioned Spotify Wrapped, right? STEPHANIE: Right. JOËL: I love Spotify Wrapped. I have so much fun looking at it every year. STEPHANIE: Yeah. It's always kind of funny, you know, when products kind of track that kind of stuff because it's like, oh, like, it feels like you're really seen [laughs] in terms of what insights it's able to come up with. But yeah, I do think it's cool that you have this little badge. I would be curious to know if there's anyone who's, you know, managed to hit a hundred percent of all the docking stations. They must be a Boston bike messenger or something [laughs]. JOËL: Now that I know that they track it, maybe I should go for completion. STEPHANIE: That would be a very cool flex, in my opinion. JOËL: [laughs] And, you know, of course, they're always expanding the network, which is a good thing. I'll bet it's the kind of thing where you get, like, 99%, and then it's just really hard to, like, keep up. STEPHANIE: Yeah, nice. JOËL: But I guess it's very appropriate, right? For a podcast titled The Bike Shed to be enthusiastic about a bike share program. STEPHANIE: That's true. So, for today's topic, I wanted to pick your brain a little bit on a data modeling question that I posed to some other developers at thoughtbot, specifically when it comes to associations and associations through other associations [laughs]. So, I'm just going to kind of try to share in words what this data model looks like and kind of see what you think about it. So, if you had a company that has many employees and then the employee can also have many devices and you wanted to be able to associate that device with the company, so some kind of method like device dot company, how do you think you would go about making that association happen so that convenience method is available to you in the code? JOËL: As a convenience for not doing device dot employee dot company. STEPHANIE: Yeah, exactly. JOËL: I think a classic is, at least the other way, is that it has many through. I forget if you can do a belongs to through or not. You could also write, effectively, a delegation method on the device to effectively do dot employee dot company. STEPHANIE: Yeah. So, I had that same inkling as you as well, where at first I tried to do a belongs to through, but it turns out that belongs to does not support the through option. And then, I kind of went down the next path of thinking about if I could do a has one, a device has one company through employee, right? But the more I thought about it, the kind of stranger it felt to me in terms of the semantics of saying that a device has a company as opposed to a company having a device. It made more sense in plain English to think about it in terms of a device belonging to a company. JOËL: That's interesting, right? Because those are ways of describing relationships in sort of ActiveRecord's language. And in sort of a richer situation, you might have all sorts of different adjectives to describe relationships. Instead of just belongs to has many, you have things like an employee owns a device, an employee works for a company, you know because an employee doesn't literally belong to a company in the literal sense. That's kind of messed up. So, I think what ActiveRecord's language is trying to use is less trying to, like, hit maybe, like, the English domain language of how these things relate to, and it's more about where the foreign keys are in the database. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I like that point where even though, you know, these are the things that are available to us, that doesn't actually necessarily, you know, capture what we want it to mean. And I had gone to see what Rails' recommendation was, not necessarily for the situation I shared. But they have a section for choosing between which model should have the belongs to, as opposed to, like, it has one association on it. And it says, like you mentioned, you know, the distinction is where you place the foreign key, but you should kind of think about the actual meaning of the data. And, you know, we've talked a lot about, I think, domain modeling [chuckles] on the show. But their kind of documentation says that...the has something relationship says that one of something is yours, that it can, like, point back to you. And in the example I shared, it still felt to me like, you know, really, the device wanted to point to the company that it is owned by. And if we think about it in real-world terms, too, if that device, like, is company property, for example, then that's a way that that does make sense. But the couple of paths forward that I saw in front of me were to rework that association, maybe add a new column onto the device, and go down that path of codifying it at the database level. Or kind of maybe something as, like, an in-between step is delegating the method to the employee. And that's what I ended up doing because I wasn't quite ready to do that data migration. JOËL: Adding more columns is interesting because then you can run into sort of data consistency issues. Let's say on the device you have a company ID to see who the device belongs to. Now, there are sort of two different independent paths. You can ask, "Which company does this device belong to?" You can either check the company ID and then look it up in the company table. Or you can join on the employee and join the employee back under company. And those might give you different answers and that can be a problem with data consistency if those two need to stay in sync. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that is a good point. JOËL: There could be scenarios where those two are allowed to diverge, right? You can imagine a scenario where maybe a company owns the device, but an employee of a potentially different company is using the device. And so, now it's okay to have sort of two different chains because the path through the employee is about what company is using our devices versus which company actually owns them. And those are, like, two different kinds of relationships. But if you're trying to get the same thing through two different paths of joining, then that can set you up for some data inconsistency issues. STEPHANIE: Wow. I really liked what you said there because I don't think enough thought goes into the emergent relationships between models after they've been introduced to a codebase. At least in my experience, I've seen a lot of thought go up front into how we might want to model an ActiveRecord, but then less thought into seeing what patterns kind of show up over time as we introduce more functionality to these models, and kind of understand how they should exist in our codebase. Is that something that you find yourself kind of noticing? Like, how do you kind of pick up on the cue that maybe there's some more thought that needs to happen when it comes to existing database tables? JOËL: I think it's something that definitely is a bit of a red flag, for me, is when there are multiple paths to connect to sort of establish a relationship. So, if I were to draw out some sort of, like, diagram of the models, boxes, and arrows or something like that, and then I could sort of overlay different paths through that diagram to connect two models and realize that those things need to be in sync, I think that's when I started thinking, ooh, that's a potential danger. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's a really great point because, you know, the example I shared was actually a kind of contrived one based on what I was seeing in a client codebase, not, you know, I'm not actually working with devices, companies, and employees [laughs]. But it was encoded as, essentially, a device having one company. And I ended up drawing it out because I just couldn't wrap my head around that idea. And I had, essentially, an arrow from device pointing to company when I could also see that you could go take the path of going through employee [laughs]. And I was just curious if that was intentional or was it just kind of a convenient way to have that direct method available? I don't currently have enough context to determine but would be something I want to pay attention to. Like you said, it does feel like, if not a red flag, at least an orange one. JOËL: And there's a whole kind of science to some of this called database normalization, where they're sort of, like, they all have rather arcane names. They're the first normal form, the second normal form, the third normal form, you know, it goes on. If you look at the definition, they're all also a little bit arcane, like every element in a relation must depend solely upon the primary key. And you're just like, well, what does that mean? And how do I know if my table is compliant with that? So, I think it's worth, if you're Googling for some of these, find an article that sort of explains these a little bit more in layman's terms, if you will. But the general idea is that there are sort of stricter and stricter levels of the amount of sort of duplicate sources of truth you can have. In a sense, it's almost like DRY but for databases, and for your database schema in particular. Because when you have multiple sources of truth, like who does this device belong to, and now you get two different answers, or three different answers, now you've got a data corruption issue. Unlike bugs in code where it's, you know, it can be a problem because the site is down, or users have incorrect behavior, but then you can fix it later, and then go to production, and disruption to your clients is the worst that happened, this sort of problem in data is sometimes unrecoverable. Like, it's just, hey, -- STEPHANIE: Whoa, that sounds scary. JOËL: Yeah, no, data problems scare me in a way that code problems don't. STEPHANIE: Whoa. Could you...I think I interrupted you. But where were you going to go about once you have corrupted data? Like, it's unrecoverable. What happens then? JOËL: Because, like, if I look at the database, do I know who the real owner of this...if I want to fix it, let's say I fix my schema, but now I've got all this data where I've got devices that have two different owners, and I don't know which one is the real one. And maybe the answer is, I just sort of pick one and say, "Oh, the one that was through this association is sort of the canonical one, and we can just sort of ignore the other one." Do I have confidence in that decision? Well, maybe depending on some of the other context maybe, I'm lucky that I can have that. The doomsday scenario is that it's a little bit of one, a little bit of the other because there were different code paths that would write to one way or another. And there's no real way of knowing. If there's not too many devices, maybe I do an audit. Maybe I have to, like, follow up with all of my customers and say, "Hey, can you tell me which ones are really your devices?" That's not going to scale. Like, real worst case scenario, you almost have to do, like, a bit of a bankruptcy, where you say, "Hey, all the data prior to this date there's a bit of a question mark on it. We're not a hundred percent sure about it." And that does not feel great. So, now you're talking about mitigation strategies. STEPHANIE: Oof. Wow. Yeah, you did make it sound [laughs] very scary. I think I've kind of been on the periphery of a situation like this before, where it's not just that we couldn't trust the code. It's that we couldn't trust the data in the database either to tell us how things work, you know, for our users and should work from a product perspective. And I was on a previous client project where they had to, yeah, like, hire a bunch of people to go through that data and kind of make those determinations, like you said, to kind of figure out it out for, you know, all of these customers to determine the source of truth there. And it did not sound like an easy feat at all, right? That's so much time and investment that you have to put into that once you get to that point. JOËL: And there's a little bit of, like, different problems at different layers. You know, at the database layer, generally, you want all of that data to be really in a sort of single source of truth. Sometimes that makes it annoying to query because you've got to do all these joins. And so, there are various denormalization strategies that you can use to make that. Or sometimes it's a risk you're going to take. You're going to say, "Look, this table is not going to be totally normalized. There's going to be some amount of duplication, and we're comfortable with the risk if that comes up." Sometimes you also build layers of abstractions on top, so you might have your data sort of at rest in database tables fully normalized and separated out, but it's really clunky to query. So, you build out a database view on top of that that returns data in sort of denormalized fashion. But that's okay because you can always get your correct answer by querying the underlying tables. STEPHANIE: Wow. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts about this because I feel like database normalization, and I guess denormalization now, are skills that I am certainly not an expert at. And so, when it comes to, like, your average developer, how much do you think that people need to be thinking about this? Or what strategies do you have for, you know, a typical Rails dev in terms of how deep they should go [laughs]? JOËL: So, the classic advice is you probably want to go to, like, third to fourth normal form, usually three. There's also like 3.5 for some reason. That's also, I think, sometimes called BNF. Anyway, sort of levels of how much you normalize. Some of these things are, like, really, really basic things that Rails just builds into its defaults with that convention over configuration, so things like every table should have a primary key. And that primary key should be something that's fixed and unique. So, don't use something like combination of first name, last name as your primary key because there could be multiple people with the same name. Also, people change their names, and that's not great. But it's great that people can change their names. It's not great to rely on that as a primary key. There are things like look for repeating columns. If you've got columns in your schema with a number prefix at the end, that's probably a sign that you want to extract a table. So, I don't know, you have a movie, and you want to list the actors for a movie. If your movie table has actor 1, actor 2, actor 3, actor 4, actor 5, you know, like, all the way up to actor 20, and you're just like, "Yeah, no, we fill, like, actor 1 through N, and if there's any space left over, we just put nulls in those columns," that's a pretty big sign that, hey, why don't you instead have a, like, actor's table, and then make a, like, has many association? So, a lot of the, like, really basic normalization things, I think, are either built into Rails or built into sort of best practices around Rails. I think something that's really useful for developers to get as a sense beyond learning the actual different normal forms is think about it like DRY for your schema. Be wary of sort of multiple sources of truth for your data, and that will get you most of the way there. When you're designing sort of models and tables, oftentimes, we think of DRY more in terms of code. Do you ever think about that a little bit in terms of your tables as well? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I would say so. I think a lot of the time rather than references to another table just starting to grow on a certain model, I would usually lean towards introducing a join table there, both because it kind of encapsulates this idea that there is a connection, and it makes the space for that idea to grow if it needs to in the future. I don't know if I have really been disciplined in thinking about like, oh, you know, there should really...every time I kind of am designing my database tables, thinking about, like, there should only be one source of truth. But I think that's a really good rule of thumb to follow. And in fact, I can actually think of an example right now where we are a little bit tempted to break that rule. And you're making me reconsider [laughter] if there's another way of doing so. One thing that I have been kind of appreciative of lately is on my current client project; there's just, like, a lot of data. It's a very data-intensive and sensitive application. And so, when we introduce migrations, those PRs get tagged for review by someone over from the DevOps side, just to kind of provide some guidance around, you know, making sure that we're setting up our models to scale well. One of the things that he's been asking me on my couple of code changes I introduced was, like, when I introduced an index, like, it happened to be, like, a composite index with a couple of different columns, and the particular order of those columns mattered. And he kind of prompted me to, like, share what my use cases for this index were, just to make sure that, like, some thought went into it, right? Like, it's not so much that the way that I had done it was wrong, but just that I had, like, thought about it. And I like that as a way of kind of thinking about things at the abstraction that I need to to do my dev work day to day and then kind of mapping that to, like you were saying, those best practices around keeping things kind of performant at the database level. JOËL: I think there's a bit of a parallel world that people could really benefit from dipping a toe in, and that's sort of the typed programming world, this idea of making impossible states impossible or making illegal states unrepresentable. That in the sort of now it's not schemas of database tables or schemas of types that you're creating but trying to prevent data coming into a state where someone could plausibly construct an instance of your object or your type that would be nonsensical in the context of your app, kind of trying to lock that down. And I think a lot of the ways that people in those communities think about...in a sense, it's kind of like database normalization for developers. So, if you're not wanting to, like, dip your toe in more of the sort of database-centric world and, like, read an article from a DBA, it might be worthwhile to look at some of those worlds as well. And I think a great starting point for that is a talk by Richard Feldman called Making Impossible States Impossible. It's for the Elm language. And there are equivalents, I think, in many others as well. STEPHANIE: That's really cool that you are making that connection. I know we've kind of briefly talked about workshops in the past on the show. But if there were a workshop for, you know, that kind of database normalization for developers, I would be the first to sign up [laughs]. JOËL: Hint, hint, RailsConf idea. There's something from your original question that I think is interesting to circle back to, and that's the fact that it was awkward to work through in Ruby to do the work that you wanted to do because the tables were laid out in a certain way. And sometimes, there's certain ways that you need the tables to be in order to be sort of safe to represent data, but they're not the optimal way that we would like to interact with them at the Ruby level. And I think it's okay for not everything in Ruby to be 100% reflective of the structure of the tables underneath. ActiveRecord gives us a great pattern, but everything is kind of one-to-one. And it's okay to layer on some things on top, add some extra methods to build some, like, connections in Ruby that rely on this normalized data underneath but that make life easier for you, or they better just represent or describe the relationships that you have. STEPHANIE: 100%. I was really compelled by your idea of introducing helpers that use more descriptive adjectives for what that relationship is like. We've talked about how Rails abstracted things from the database level, you know, for our convenience, but that should not stop us from, like, leaning on that further, right? And kind of introducing our own abstractions for those connections that we see in our domain. So, I feel really inspired. I might even kind of reconsider the way I handled the original example and see what I can make of it. JOËL: And I think your original solution of doing the delegation is a great example of this as well. You want the idea that a device belongs to a company or has an association called company, and you just don't want to go through that long chain, or at least you don't want that to be visible as an implementation detail. So, in this case, you delegate it through a chain of methods in Ruby. It could also be that you have a much longer chain of tables, and maybe they don't all have associations in Rails and all that. And I think it would be totally fine as well to define a method on an object where, I don't know, a device, I don't know, has many...let's call it technicians, which is everybody who's ever touched this device or, you know, is on a log somewhere for having done maintenance. And maybe that list of technicians is not a thing you can just get through regular Rails associations. Maybe there's a whole, like, custom query underlying that, and that's okay. STEPHANIE: Yeah, as you were saying that, I was thinking about that's actually kind of, like, active models are the great spot to put those methods and that logic. And I think you've made a really good case for that. JOËL: On that note, shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!! AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Joël shares his experience with the dry-rb suite of gems, focusing on how he's been using contracts to validate input data. Stephanie relates to Joël's insights with her preparation for RailsConf, discussing her methods for presenting code in slides and weighing the aesthetics and functionality of different tools like VS Code and Carbon.sh. She also encounters a CI test failure that prompts her to consider the implications of enforcing specific coding standards through CI processes. The conversation turns into a discussion on managing coding standards and tools effectively, ensuring that automated systems help rather than hinder development. Joël and Stephanie ponder the balance between enforcing strict coding standards through CI and allowing developers the flexibility to bypass specific rules when necessary, ensuring tools provide valuable feedback without becoming obstructions. Transcript: AD: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions, or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue. STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. JOËL: And I'm Joël Quenneville. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I've been working on a project that uses the dry-rb suite of gems. And one of the things we're doing there is we're validating inputs using this concept of a contract. So, you sort of describe the shape and requirements of this, like hash of attributes that you get, and it will then tell you whether it's valid or not, along with error messages. We then want to use those to eventually build some other sort of value object type things that we use in the app. And because there's, like, failure points at multiple places that you have to track, it gets a little bit clunky. And I got to thinking a little bit about, like, forget about the internal machinery. What is it that I would actually like to happen here? And really, what I want is to say, I've got this, like, bunch of attributes, which may or may not be correct. I want to pass them into a method, and then either get back a value object that I was hoping to construct or some kind of error. STEPHANIE: That sounds reasonable to me. JOËL: And then, thinking about it just a little bit longer, I was like, wait a minute, this idea of, like, unstructured input goes into a method, you get back something more structured or an error, that's kind of the broad definition of parsing. I think what I'm looking for is a parser object. And this really fits well with a style of processing popularized in the functional programming community called parse, don't validate the idea that you use a parser like this to sort of transform data from more loose to more strict values, values where you can have more assumptions. And so, I create an object, and I can take a contract. I can take a class and say, "Attempt to take the following attributes. If they're valid according to the construct, create this classroom." And it, you know, does a bunch of error handling and some...under the hood, dry-rb does all this monad stuff. So, I handled that all inside of the object, but it's actually really nice. STEPHANIE: Cool. Yeah, I had a feeling that was where you were going to go. A while back, we had talked about really impactful articles that we had read over the course of the year, and you had shared one called Parse, Don't Validate. And that heuristic has actually been stuck in my head a little bit. And that was really cool that you found an opportunity to use it in, you know, previously trying to make something work that, like, you weren't really sure kind of how you wanted to implement that. JOËL: I think I had a bit of a light bulb moment as I was trying to figure this out because, in my mind, there are sort of two broad approaches. There's the parse, don't validate where you have some inputs, and then you transform them into something stricter. Or there's more of that validation approach where you have inputs, you verify that they're correct, and then you pass them on to someone else. And you just say, "Trust me, I verified they're in the right shape." Dry-rb sort of contracts feel like they fit more under that validation approach rather than the parse, don't validate. Where I think the kind of the light bulb turned on for me is the idea that if you pair a validation step and an object construction step, you've effectively approximated the idea of parse, don't validate. So, if I create a parser object that says, in sort of one step, I'm going to validate some inputs and then immediately use them if they're valid to construct an object, then I've kind of done a parse don't validate, even though the individual building blocks don't follow that pattern. STEPHANIE: More like a parse and validate, if you will [laughs]. I have a question for you. Like, do you own those inputs kind of in your domain? JOËL: In this particular case, sort of. They're coming from a form, so yes. But it's user input, so never trust that. STEPHANIE: Gotcha. JOËL: I think you can take this idea and go a little bit broader as well. It doesn't have to be, like, the dry-rb-related stuff. You could do, for example, a JSON schema, right? You're dealing with the input from a third-party API, and you say, "Okay, well, I'm going to have a sort of validation JSON schema." It will just tell you, "Is this data valid or not?" and give you some errors. But what if you paired that with construction and you could create a little parser object, if you wanted to, that says, "Hey, I've got a payload coming in from a third-party API, validate it against this JSON schema, and attempt to construct this shopping cart object, and give me an error otherwise." And now you've sort of created a nice, little parse, don't validate pipeline which I find a really nice way to deal with data like that. STEPHANIE: From a user perspective, I'm curious: Does this also improve the user experience? I'm kind of wondering about that. It seems like it could. But have you explored that? JOËL: This is more about the developer experience. STEPHANIE: Got it. JOËL: The user experience, I think, would be either identical or, you know, you can play around with things to display better errors. But this is more about the ergonomics on the development side of things. It was a little bit clunky to sort of assemble all the parts together. And sometimes we didn't immediately do both steps together at the same time. So, you might sort of have parameters that we're like, oh, these are totally good, we promise. And we pass them on to someone else, who passes them on to someone else. And then, they might try to do something with them and hope that they've got the data in the right shape. And so, saying, let's co-locate these two things. Let's say the validation of the inputs and then the creation of some richer object happen immediately one after another. We're always going to bundle them together. And then, in this particular case, because we're using dry-rb, there's all this monad stuff that has to happen. That was a little bit clunky. We've sort of hidden that in one object, and then nobody else ever has to deal with that. So, it's easier for developers in terms of just, if you want to turn inputs into objects, now you're just passing them into one object, into one, like, parser, and it works. But it's a nicer developer experience, but also there's a little bit more safety in that because now you're sort of always working with these richer objects that have been validated. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that makes sense. It sounds very cohesive because you've determined that these are two things that should always happen together. The problems arise when they start to actually get separated, and you don't have what you need in terms of using your interfaces. And that's very nice that you were able to bundle that in an abstraction that makes sense. JOËL: A really interesting thing I think about abstractions is sometimes thinking of them as the combination of multiple other things. So, you could say that the combination of one thing and another thing, and all of a sudden, you have a new sort of combo thing that you have created. And, in this case, I think the combination of input validation and construction, and, you know, to a certain extent, error handling, so maybe it's a combination of three things gives you a thing you can call a parser. And knowing that that combination is a thing you can put a name on, I think, is really powerful, or at least it felt really powerful to me when that light bulb turned on. STEPHANIE: Yeah, it's kind of like the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. JOËL: Yeah. STEPHANIE: Cool. JOËL: And you and I did an episode on Specialized Vocabulary a while back. And that power of naming, saying that, oh, I don't just have a bunch of little atomic steps that do things. But the fact that the combination of three or four of them is a thing in and of itself that has a name that we can talk about has properties that we're familiar with, all of a sudden, that is a really powerful way to think about a system. STEPHANIE: Absolutely. That's very exciting. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So, I am plugging away at my RailsConf talk, and I reached the point where I'm starting to work on slides. And this talk will be the first one where I have a lot of code that I want to present on my slides. And so, I've been playing around with a couple of different tools to present code on slides or, I guess, you know, just being able to share code outside of an editor. And the two tools I'm trying are...VS Code actually has a copy with syntax functionality in its command palette. And so, that's cool because it basically, you know, just takes your editor styling and applies it wherever you paste that code snippet. JOËL: Is that a screenshot or that's, like, formatted text that you can paste in, like, a rich text editor? STEPHANIE: Yeah, it's the latter. JOËL: Okay. STEPHANIE: That was nice because if I needed to make changes in my slides once I had already put them there, I could do that. But then the other tool that I was giving a whirl is Carbon.sh. And that one, I think, is pretty popular because it looks very slick. It kind of looks like a little Mac window and is very minimal. But you can paste your code into their text editor, and then you can export PNGs of the code. So, those are just screenshots rather than editable text. And I [chuckles] was using that, exported a bunch of screenshots of all of my code in various stages, and then realized I had a typo [laughs]. JOËL: Oh no! STEPHANIE: Yeah, so I have not got around to fixing that yet. That was pretty frustrating because now I would have to go back and regenerate all of those exports. So, that's kind of where I'm at in terms of exploring sharing code. So, if anyone has any other tools that they would use and recommend, I am all ears. JOËL: How do you feel about balancing sort of the quantity of code that you put on a slide? Do you tend to go with, like, a larger code slide and then maybe, like, highlight certain sections? Do you try to explain ideas in general and then only show, like, a couple of lines? Do you show, like, maybe a class that's got ten lines, and that's fine? Where do you find that balance in terms of how much code to put on a slide? Because I feel like that's always the big dilemma for me. STEPHANIE: Yeah. Since this is my first time doing it, like, I really have no idea how it's going to turn out. But what I've been trying is focusing more on changes between each slide, so the progression of the code. And then, I can, hopefully, focus more on what has changed since the last snippet of code we were looking at. That has also required me to be more fiddly with the formatting because I don't want essentially, like, the window that's containing the code to be changing sizes [laughs] in between slide transitions. So, that was a little bit finicky. And then, there's also a few other parts where I am highlighting with, like, a border or something around certain texts that I will probably pause and talk about, but yeah, it's tough. I feel like I've seen it done well, but it's a lot harder to and a lot more effort to [laughs] do in practice, I'm finding. JOËL: When someone does it well, it looks effortless. And then, when somebody does it poorly, you're like, okay, I'm struggling to connect with this talk. STEPHANIE: Yep. Yep. I hear that. I don't know if you would agree with this, but I get the sense that people who are able to make that look effortless have, like, a really deep and thorough understanding of the code they're showing and what exactly they think is important for the audience to pay attention to and understand in that given moment in their talk. That's the part that I'm finding a lot more work [laughs] because just thinking about, you know, the code I'm showing from a different lens or perspective. JOËL: How do you sort of shrink it down to only what's essential for the point that you're trying to make? And then, more broadly, not just the point you're trying to make on this one slide, but how does this one slide fit into the broader narrative of the story you're trying to tell? STEPHANIE: Right. So, we'll see how it goes for me. I'm sure it's one of those things that takes practice and experience, and this will be my first time, and we'll learn something from it. JOËL: That's exciting. So, this is RailsConf in Detroit this year, I believe, May 7th through 9th. STEPHANIE: Yep. That's right. So, recently on my client work, I encountered a CI failure on a PR of mine that I was surprised by. And basically, I had introduced a new association on a model, and this CI failure was saying like, "Hey, like, we see that you introduced this association. You should consider adding this to the presenter for this model." And I hadn't even known that that presenter existed [laughs]. So, it was kind of interesting to get a CI failure nudging me to consider if I need to be, like, making a different, you know, this other change somewhere else. JOËL: That's a really fun use of CI. Do you think that was sort of helpful for you as a newer person on that codebase? Or was it more kind of annoying and, like, okay, this CI is over the top? STEPHANIE: You know, I'm not sure [laughs]. For what it's worth, this presenter was actually for their admin dashboard, essentially. And so, the goal of what this workflow was trying to do was help folks who are using the admin dashboard have, like, all of the capabilities they need to do that job. And it makes sense that as you add behavior to your app, sometimes those things could get missed in terms of supporting, you know, not just your customers but developers, support product, you know, the other users of your app. So, it was cool. And that was, you know, something that they cared enough to enforce. But yeah, I think there maybe is a bit of a slippery slope or at least some kind of line, or it might even be pretty blurry around what should our test failures really be doing. JOËL: And CI is interesting because it can be a lot more than just tests. You can run all sorts of things. You can run a linter that fails. You could run various code quality tools that are not things like unit tests. And I think those are all valid uses of the CI process. What's interesting here is that it sounds like there were two systems that needed to stay in sync. And this particular CI check was about making sure that we didn't accidentally introduce code that would sort of drift apart in those two places. Does that sound about right? STEPHANIE: Yeah, that does sound right. I think where it gets a little fuzzy, for me, is whether that kind of check was for code quality, was for a standard, or for a policy, right? It was kind of saying like, hey, like, this is the way that we've enforced developers to keep those two things from drifting. Whereas I think that could be also handled in different ways, right? JOËL: Yeah. I guess in terms of, like, keeping two things in sync, I like to do that at almost, like, a code level, if possible. I mean, maybe you need a single source of truth, and then it just sort of happens automatically. Otherwise, maybe doing it in a way that will yell at you. So, you know, maybe there's a base class somewhere that will raise an error, and that will get caught by CI, or, you know, when you're manually testing and like, oh yeah, I need to keep this thing in sync. Maybe you can derive some things or get fancy with metaprogramming. And the goal here is you don't have a situation where someone adds a new file in one place and then they accidentally break an admin dashboard because they weren't aware that you needed these two files to be one-to-one. If I can't do it just at a code level, I have done that before at, like, a unit test level, where maybe there's, like, a constant somewhere, and I just want to assert that every item in this constant array has a matching entry somewhere else or something like that, so that you don't end up effectively crashing the site for someone else because that is broken behavior. STEPHANIE: Yeah, in this particular case, it wasn't necessarily broken. It was asking you "Hey, should this be added to the admin presenter?" which I thought was interesting. But I also hear what you're saying. It actually does remind me of what we were talking about earlier when you've identified two things that should happen, like mostly together and whether the code gives you affordances to do that. JOËL: So, one of the things you said is really interesting, the idea that adding to the presenter might have been optional. Does that mean that CI failed for you but that you could merge anyway, or how does that work? STEPHANIE: Right. I should have been more clear. This was actually a test failure, you know, that happened to be caught by CI because I don't run [laughs] the whole test suite locally. JOËL: But it's an optional test failure, so you're allowed to let that test fail. STEPHANIE: Basically, it told me, like, if I want this to be shown in the presenter, add it to this method, or if not, add it to...it was kind of like an allow list basically. JOËL: I see. STEPHANIE: Or an ignore list, yeah. JOËL: I think that kind of makes sense because now you have sort of, like, a required consistency thing. So, you say, "Our system requires you...whenever you add a file in this directory, you must add it to either an allow list or an ignore list, which we have set up in this other file." And, you know, sometimes you might forget, or sometimes you're new, and it's your first time adding a file in this directory, and you didn't remember there's a different place where you have to effectively register it. That seems like a reasonable check to have in place if you're relying on these sort of allow lists for other parts of the system, and you need to keep them in sync. STEPHANIE: So, I think this is one of the few instances where I might disagree with you, Joël. What I'm thinking is that it feels a bit weird to me to enforce a decision that was so far away from the code change that I made. You know, you're right. On one hand, I am newer to this codebase, maybe have less of that context of different features, things that need to happen. It's a big app. But I almost think this test reinforces this weird coupling of things that are very far away from each other [laughs]. JOËL: So, it's maybe not the test itself you object to rather than the general architecture where these admin presenters are relying on these other objects. And by you introducing a file in a totally different part of the app, there's a chance that you might break the admin, and that feels weird to you. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that does feel weird to me. And then, also that this implementation is, like, codified in this test, I guess, as opposed to a different kind of, like, acceptance test, rather than specifying specifically like, oh, I noticed, you know, you didn't add this new association or attribute to either the allow list or the ignore list. Maybe there is a more, like, higher level test that could steer us in keeping the features consistent without necessarily dictating, like, that it needs to happen in these particular methods. JOËL: So, you're talking something like doing an integration test rather than a unit test? Or are you talking about something entirely different? STEPHANIE: I think it could be an integration test or a system test. I'm not sure exactly. But I am wondering what options, you know, are out there for helping keeping standards in place without necessarily, like, prescribing too much about, like, how it needs to be done. JOËL: So, you used the word standard here, which I tend to think about more in terms of, like, code style, things like that. What you're describing here feels a little bit less like a standard and more of what I would call a code invariant. STEPHANIE: Ooh. JOËL: It's sort of like in this architecture the way we've set up, there must always be sort of one-to-one matching between files in this directory and entries in this array. Now, that's annoying because they're sort of, like, two different places, and they can vary independently. So, locking those two in sync requires you to do some clunky things, but that's sort of the way the architecture has been designed. These two things must remain one-to-one. This is an invariant we want in the app. STEPHANIE: Can you define invariant for me [laughs], the way that you're using it here? JOËL: Yeah, so something that is required to be true of all elements in this class of things, sort of a rule or a law that you're applying to the way that these particular bits of code need to behave. So, in this case, the invariant is every file in this directory must have a matching entry in this array. There's a lot of ways to enforce that. The sort of traditional idea is sort of pushing a lot of that checking...they'll sometimes talk about pushing errors to the left. So, if you can handle this earlier in the sort of code execution pipeline, can you do it maybe with a type system if you're in a type language? Can you do it with some sort of input validation at runtime? Some languages have the concept of contracts, so maybe you enforce invariants using that. You could even do something really ad hoc in Ruby, where you might say, "Hey, at boot time, when we load this particular array for the admin, just load this directory. Make sure that the entries in the array match the entries in the directory, and if they don't, raise an error." And I guess you would catch that probably in CI just because you tried to run your test suite, and you'd immediately get this boot error because the entries don't match. So, I guess it kind of gets [inaudible 22:36] CI, but now it's not really a dedicated test anymore. It's more of, like, a property of the system. And so, in this case, I've sort of shifted the error checking or the checking of this invariant more into the architecture itself rather than in, like, things that exercise the architecture. But you can go the other way and say, "Well, let's shift it out of the architecture into tests," or maybe even beyond that, into, like, manual QA or, you know, other things that you can do to verify it. STEPHANIE: Hmm. That is very compelling to me. JOËL: So, we've been talking so far about the idea of invariants, but the thing about invariants is that they don't vary. They're always true. This is a sort of fundamental rule of how this system works. The class of problems that I often struggle with how to deal with in these sorts of situations are rules that you only sometimes want to apply. They're not consistent. Have you ever run into things like that? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I have. And I think that's what was compelling to me about what you were sharing about code invariance because I wasn't totally convinced this particular situation was a very clear and absolute rule that had been decided, you know, it seemed a little bit more ambiguous. When you're talking about, like, applying rules that sometimes you actually don't want to apply, I think of things like linters, where we want to disable, you know, certain rules because we just can't get around implementing the way we want to while following those standards. Or maybe, you know, sometimes you just have to do something that is not accessible [laughs], not that that's what I would recommend, but in the case where there aren't other levers to change, you maybe want to disable some kind of accessibility check. JOËL: That's always interesting, right? Because sometimes, you might want, like, the idea of something that has an escape hatch in it, but that immediately adds a lot of complexity to things as well. This is getting into more controversial territory. But I read a really compelling article by Jeroen Engels about how being able to, like, locally disable your linter for particular methods actually makes your code, but also the linter itself, a worse tool. And it really kind of made me rethink a little bit of how I approach linters as a tool. STEPHANIE: Ooh. JOËL: And what makes sense in a linter. STEPHANIE: What was the argument for the linter being a worse tool by doing that? JOËL: You know, it's funny that you ask because now I can't remember, and it's been a little while since I've read the article. STEPHANIE: I'll have to revisit it after the show [laughs]. JOËL: Apparently, I didn't do the homework for this episode, but we'll definitely link to that article in the show notes. STEPHANIE: So, how do you approach either introducing a new rule to something like a linter or maybe reconsidering an existing rule? Like, how would you go about finding, like, consensus on that from your team? JOËL: That varies a lot by organizational culture, right? Some places will do it top-down, some of them will have a broader conversation and come to a consensus. And sometimes you just straight up don't get a choice. You're pulling in a tool like standard rb, and you're saying, "Look, we don't want to have a discussion about every little style thing, so whatever, you know, the community has agreed on for the standard rb linter is the style we're using. There are no discussions. Do what the linter tells you." STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's true. I think I have to adapt to whatever, you know, client culture is like when I join new projects. You know, sometimes I do see people being like, "Hey, I think it's kind of weird that we have this," or, "Hey, I've noticed, for example, oh, we're merging focused RSpec tests. Like, let's introduce a rule to make sure that that doesn't happen." I also think that a different approach is for those things not to be enforced at all by automation, but we, you know, there are still guidelines. I think the thoughtbot guides are an example of pretty opinionated guidelines around style and syntax. But I don't think that those kinds of things would, you know, ever be, like, enforced in a way that would be blocking. JOËL: Those are kind of hard because they're not as consistent as you would think, so it's not a rule you can apply every time. It's more of a, here's some things to maybe keep in mind. Or if you're writing code in this way, think about some of the edge cases that might happen, or don't default to writing it in this way because things might go wrong. Make sure you know what you're doing. I love the phrase, "Must be able to justify this," or sometimes, "Must convince your pair that this is okay." So, default to writing in style A, avoid style B unless you can have a compelling reason to do so and can articulate that on your PR or, you know, convince your pair that that's the right way to go. STEPHANIE: Interesting. It's kind of like the honor system, then [laughs]. JOËL: And I think that's sort of the general way when you're working with developers, right? There's a lot of areas where there is ambiguity. There is no single best way to do it. And so, you rely on people's expertise to build systems that work well. There are some things where you say, look, having conversations about these things is not useful. We want to have some amount of standardization or uniformity about certain things. Maybe there's invariance you want to hold. Maybe there's certain things we're, like, this should never get to production. Whenever you've got these, like, broad sweeping statements about things should be always true or never true, that's a great time to introduce something like a linting rule. When it's more up to personal judgment, and you just want to nudge that judgment one way or another, then maybe it's better to have something like a guide. STEPHANIE: Yeah, what I'm hearing is there is a bit of a spectrum. JOËL: For sure. From things that are always true to things that are, like, sometimes true. I think I'm sort of curious about the idea of going a level beyond that, though, beyond things like just code style or maybe even, like, invariance you want to hold or something, being able to make suggestions to developers based off the code that is written. So, now you're applying more like heuristics, but instead of asking a human to apply those heuristics at code review time and leave some comments, maybe there's a way to get automated feedback from a tool. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I think we had mentioned code analysis tools earlier because some teams and organizations include those as part of their CI builds, right? And, you know, even Brakeman, right? Like, that's an analysis tool for security. But I can't recall if I've seen an organization use things like Flog metrics which measure code complexity in things like that. How would you feel if that were a check that was blocking your work? JOËL: So, I've seen things like that be used if you're using, like, the Code Climate plugin for GitHub. And Code Climate internally does effectively flog and other things that are fancier on your code quality. And so, you can set a threshold to say, hey, if complexity gets higher than a certain amount, fail the build. You can also...if you're doing things via GitHub, what's nice is that you can do effectively non-blocking comments. So, instead of failing CI to say, "Hey, this method looks really complex. You cannot merge until you have made this method less complex," maybe the sort of, like, next step up in ambiguity is to just leave a comment on a PR from a tool and say, "Hey, this method here is looking really complex. Consider breaking it up." STEPHANIE: Yeah, there is a tool that I've seen but not used called Danger, and its tagline is, Stop saying, "You forgot to..." in code review [laughs]. And it basically does that, what you were saying, of, like, leaving probably a suggestion. I can imagine it's blocking, but a suggestive comment that just automates that rather than it being a manual process that humans have to remember or notice. JOËL: And there's a lot of things that could be specific to your organization or your architecture. So, you say, "Hey, you introduced a file here. Would you consider also making an entry to this presenter file so that it's editable on the admin?" And maybe that's a better place to handle that. Just a comment. But you wouldn't necessarily want every code reviewer to have to think about that. STEPHANIE: So, I do think that I am sometimes not necessarily suspicious, but I have also seen tools like that end up just getting in the way, and it just becomes something you ignore. It's something you end up always using the escape hatch for, or people just find ways around it because they're harming more than they're helping. Do you have any thoughts about how to kind of keep those things in check and make sure that the tools we introduce genuinely are kind of helping the organization do the right thing rather than kind of being these perhaps arbitrary blockers? JOËL: I'm going to throw a fancy phrase at you. STEPHANIE: Ooh, I'm ready. JOËL: Signal-to-noise ratio. STEPHANIE: Whoa, uh-huh. JOËL: So, how often is the feedback from your tool actually helpful, and how often is it just noise that you have to dismiss, or manually override, or things like that? At some point, the ratio becomes so much that you lose the signal in all the noise. And so, maybe you even, like, because you're always just ignoring the feedback from this tool, you accidentally start overriding things that would be genuinely helpful. And, at that point, you've got the worst of both worlds. So, sort of keeping track on what that ratio is, and there's not, like, a magic number. I'm not going to tell you, "Oh, this is an 80/20 principle. You need to have, you know, 80% of the time it's useful and only 20% of the time it's not useful." I don't have a number to give you, but keeping track on maybe, you know, is it more often than not useful? Is your team getting to the point where they're just ignoring feedback from this tool? And thinking in terms of that signal versus that noise, I think is useful—to go back to that word again, heuristic for managing whether a tool is still helpful. STEPHANIE: Yeah. And I would even go on to say that, you know, I always appreciate when people in leadership roles keep an eye on these things. And they're like, "Oh, I've been hearing that people are just totally numb to this tool [laughs]" or, you know, "There's no engagement on this. People are just ignoring those signals." Any developer impacted by this, it is valid to bring it up if you're getting frustrated by it or just finding yourself, you know, having all of these obstacles getting in the way of your development process. JOËL: Sometimes, this can be a symptom that you're mixing too many classes of problems together in one tool. So, maybe there are things that are, like, really dangerous to your product to go live with them. Maybe it's, you know, something like Brakeman where you're doing security checks, and you really, ideally, would not go to production with a failing security check. And then, you've got some random other style things in there, and you're just like, oh yeah, whatever, it's this tool because it's mostly style things but occasionally gives you a security problem. And because you ignore it all the time, now you accidentally go to production with a security problem. So, splitting that out and say, "Look, we've got blocking and unblocking because we recognize these two classes of problems can be a helpful solution to this problem." STEPHANIE: Joël, did you just apply an object-oriented design principle to an organizational system? [laughter] JOËL: I may be too much of a developer. STEPHANIE: Cool. Well, I really appreciate your input on this because, you know, I was just kind of mulling over, like, how I felt about these kinds of things that I encounter as a developer. And I am glad that we got to kind of talk about it. And I think it gives me a more expanded vocabulary to, you know, analyze or reflect when I encounter these things on different client organizations. JOËL: And every organization is different, right? Like, you've got to learn the culture, learn the different elements of that software. What are the things that are invariant? What are the things that are dangerous that we don't want to ship without? What are the things that we're doing just for consistency? What are things which are, like, these are culturally things that we'd like to do? There's all these levels, and it's a lot to pick up. STEPHANIE: Yeah. At the end of the day, I think what I really liked about the last thing you said was being able to identify the problem, like the class of problem, and applying the right tool for the right job. It helps me take a step back and perhaps even think of different solutions that we might not have thought about earlier because we had just gotten so used to the one way of enforcing or checking things like that. JOËL: On that note, shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!! AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Joël discusses the challenges he encountered while optimizing slow SQL queries in a non-Rails application. Stephanie shares her experience with canary deploys in a Rails upgrade. Together, Stephanie and Joël address a listener's question about replacing the wkhtml2pdf tool, which is no longer maintained. The episode's main topic revolves around the concept of multidimensional numbers and their applications in software development. Joël introduces the idea of treating objects containing multiple numbers as single entities, using the example of 2D points in space to illustrate how custom classes can define mathematical operations like addition and subtraction for complex data types. They explore how this approach can simplify operations on data structures, such as inventories of T-shirt sizes, by treating them as mathematical objects. EXPLAIN ANALYZE visualizer (https://explain.dalibo.com/) Canary in a coal mine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_species#Canaries) Episode 413: Developer Tales of Package Management (https://bikeshed.thoughtbot.com/413) Docs for media-specific CSS (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media) Episode 386: Value Objects Revisited: The Tally Edition (https://bikeshed.thoughtbot.com/386) Money gem (https://github.com/RubyMoney/money) Transcript: STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. JOËL: And I'm Joël Quenneville. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I've recently been trying to do some performance enhancements to some very slow queries. This isn't a Rails app, so we're sort of combining together a bunch of different scopes. And the way they're composing together is turning out to be really slow. And I've reached for a tool that is just really fun. It's a visualizer for SQL query plans. You can put the SQL keywords in front of a query: 'EXPLAIN ANALYZE,' and it will then output a query plan, sort of how it's going to attempt to do the work. And that might be like, oh, we're going to use this index on this table to join on this other thing, and then we're going to...maybe this is a table that we think we're going to do a sequential scan through and, you know, it builds out a whole thing. It's a big block of text, and it's kind of intimidating to look at. So, there are a few websites out there that will do this. You just paste a query plan in, and they will build you a nice, little visualization, almost like a tree of, like, tasks to be done. Oftentimes, they'll also annotate it with metadata that they pulled from the query plan. So, oh, this particular node is the really expensive one because we're doing a sequential scan of this table that has 15 million rows in it. And so, it's really useful to then sort of pinpoint what are the areas that you could optimize. STEPHANIE: Nice. I have known that you could do that EXPLAIN ANALYZE on a SQL query, but I've never had to do it before. Is this your first time, or is it just your first time using the visualizer? JOËL: I've played around with EXPLAIN ANALYZE a little bit before. Pro tip: In Rails, if you've got a scope, you can just chain dot explain on the end, and instead of running the query, it will run the EXPLAIN version of it and return the query plan. So, you don't need to, like, turn into SQL then manually run it in your database system to get the EXPLAIN. You can just tack a dot explain on there to get the query plan. It's still kind of intimidating, especially if you've got a really complex query that's...this thing might be 50 lines long of EXPLAIN with all this indentation and other stuff. So, putting it into a sort of online visualizer was really helpful for the work that I was doing. So, it was my first time using an online visualizer. There are a few out there. I'll link to the one that I used in the show notes. But I would do that again, would recommend. STEPHANIE: Nice. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So, I actually just stepped away from being in the middle of doing a Rails upgrade [chuckles] and releasing it to production just a few minutes before getting on to record with you on this podcast. And the reason I was able to do that, you know, without feeling like I had to just monitor to see how it was going is because I'm on a project where the client is using canary deploys. And I was so pleasantly surprised by how easy it made this experience where we had decided to send the canary release earlier this morning. And the way that they have it set up is that the canary goes to 10% of traffic. 10% of the users were on Rails 7 for their sessions. And we saw a couple of errors in our error monitoring service. And we are like, "Okay, like, let's take a look at this, see what's going on." And it turns out it was not too big of a deal because it had to do with, like, a specific page. And, for the most part, if a user did encounter this error, they probably wouldn't again after refreshing because they had, like, a 90% chance [chuckles] of being directed to the previous version where everything is working. And we were kind of making that trade-off of like, oh, we could hotfix this right now on the canary release. But then, as we were starting to debug a little bit, it was a bit hairier than we expected originally. And so, you know, I said, "I have to hop on to go record The Bike Shed. So, why don't we just take this canary down just for the time being to take that time pressure off? And it's Friday, so we're heading into the weekend. And maybe we can revisit the issue with some fresh eyes." So, I'm feeling really good, actually. And I'm glad that we were able to do something that seems scary, but there were guardrails in place to make it a lot more chill. JOËL: Yay for the ability to roll back. You used the term canary release. That's not one that I'm familiar with. Can you explain what a canary release is? STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. Have you heard of the phrase 'Canary in the coal mine'? JOËL: I have. STEPHANIE: Okay. So, I believe it's the same idea where you are, in this case, releasing a potentially risky change, but you don't want to immediately make it available to, like, all of your users. And so, you send this change to, like, a small reach, I suppose, and give it a little bit of a test and see [chuckles] what comes back. And that can help inform you of any issues or risks that might happen before kind of committing to deploying a potentially risky change with a bigger impact. JOËL: Is this handled with something like a feature flag framework? Or is this, like, at an infrastructure level where you're just like, "Hey, we've got the canary image in, like, one container on one server, and then we'll redirect 10% of traffic to that to be served by that one and the other 90% to be served by the old container or something like that"? STEPHANIE: Yeah, in this case, it was at the infrastructure level. And I have also seen something similar at a feature flag level, too, where you're able to have some more granularity around what percent of users are seeing a feature. But I think with something like a Rails upgrade, it was nice to be able to have that at that infrastructure level. It's not necessarily, like, a particular page or feature to show or not show. JOËL: Yeah, I think you would probably want that at a higher level when you're changing over the entire app. Is this something that you had to custom-build yourself or something that just sort of came out of the box with some of the infrastructure tools you're using? STEPHANIE: It came out of the box, actually. I just joined this client project this week and was very delighted to see just some really great deployment infrastructure and getting to meet the DevOps engineers, too, who built it. And they're really proud of it. They kind of walked us through our first release earlier this week. And he was telling me, the DevOps engineer, that this was actually his favorite part of the job, is walking people through their first release and being their buddy while they do it. Because I think he gets to also see users interact with the tool that he built, and he had a lot of pride in that, so it was a very delightful experience. JOËL: That's so wonderful. I've been on so many projects where the sort of infrastructure side of things is not the team's strong point, and releasing can be really scary. And it's great to hear the opposite of that. We recently received a question for Stephanie based on an earlier episode. So, the question asks, "In episode 413, Stephanie discussed a recent issue she encountered with wkhtml2pdf. The episode turned into a deeper discussion about package management, but I don't think it ever cycled back to the conclusion. I'm curious: how did Stephanie solve this dilemma? We're facing the same issue on a project that my team maintains. It's an old codebase, and there are bits of old code that use wkhtml2pdf to generate print views of our data in our application. The situation is fairly dire. wkhtml2pdf is no longer maintained. In fact, it won't even be available to install from our operating system's package repositories in June. We're on FreeBSD, but I assume the same will be eventually true for other operating systems. And so, unless you want to maintain some build step to check out and compile the source code for an application that will no longer receive security updates, just living with it isn't really an option. There are three options we're considering. One, eliminate the dependency entirely. Based on user feedback, it sounds like our old developers were using this library to generate PDFs when what users really wanted was an easy way to print. So, instead of downloading a PDF, just ensure the screen has a good print style sheet and register an onload handler to call window dot print. We're thinking we could implement this as an A/B test to the feature to test this theory. Or two, replace wkhtml2pdf with a call to Headless Chrome and use that to generate the PDF. Or, three, replace wkhtml2pdf with a language-level package. For us, that might be the dompdf library available via Composer because we're a PHP shop." Yeah, a lot to unpack here. Any high-level thoughts, Stephanie? STEPHANIE: My first thought while I was listening to you read that question is that wkhtml2pdf is such a mouthful [laughs]. And I was impressed how you managed to say it at least, like, five times. JOËL: So, I try to say that five times fast. STEPHANIE: And then, my second high-level thought was, I'm so sorry to Brian, our listener who wrote in, because I did not really solve this dilemma [chuckles] for my project and team. I kind of kicked the can down the road, and that's because this was during a support and maintenance rotation that I've talked a little bit about before on the show. I was only working on this project for about a week. And what we thought was a small bug to figure out why PDFs were a little bit broken turned out, as you mentioned, to be this kind of big, dire dilemma where I did not feel like I had enough information to make a good call about what to do. So, I kind of just shared my findings that, like, hey, there is kind of a risk and hoping that someone else [laughs] would be able to make a better determination. But I really was struck by the options that you were considering because it was actually a bit of a similar situation to the bug I was sharing where the PDF that was being generated that was slightly broken. I don't think it was, like, super valuable to our users that it be in the form of a PDF. It really was just a way for them to print something to have on handy as a reference from, you know, some data that was generated from the app. So, yeah, based on what you're sharing, I feel really excited about the first one. Joël, I'm sure you have some opinions about this as well. JOËL: I love sort of the bigger picture thinking that Brian is doing here, sort of stepping back and being like, wait, why do we even need PDF here, and how are our customers using it? I think those are the really good questions to ask before sinking a ton of time into coming up with something that might be, like, a bit of a technical wonder. Like, hey, we managed to, like, do this PDF generation thing that we had to, like, cobble together so many other things. And it's so cool technically, but does it actually solve the underlying problem? So, shout out to Brian for thinking about it in those terms. I love that. Second cool thing that I wanted to shout out, because I think this is a feature of browsers that not many people are aware of; you can have multiple style sheets for your page, and you can tag them to be for different media. So, you can have a style sheet that only gets applied when you print versus when you display on screen. And there are a couple of others. I don't remember exactly what they are. I'll link to the docs in the show notes. But taking advantage of this, like, this is old technology but making that available and saying, "Yeah, we'll make it so that it's nice when you print, and we'll maybe even, you know, a link or a button with JavaScript so that you could just Command-P or Control-P to print. But we'll have a button in there as well that will allow you to print to PDF," and that solves your problem right there. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know that about being able to tag style sheets for different media types. That's really fascinating. And I like that, yeah, we're just eliminating this dependency on something, like, potentially really complex with a, hopefully, kind of elegant and modern solution, maybe. JOËL: And your browser is already able to do so many of these things. Why do we sort of try to recreate it? Printing is a thing browsers have been able to do for a long time. Printing to PDF is a thing that you can do for a long time. I will sometimes use that on sites where I need to, let's say I'm purchasing something, and I need some sort of receipt to expense, but they won't give me a download, a PDF download that I can send to the accounting team, so I will print to PDF the, like, HTML view. And that works just fine. It's kind of a workaround hack. Sometimes, it doesn't work well because the HTML page is just not well set up to, like, show up on a PDF page. You get some, like, weird, like, pagination issues or things like that. But, you know, just a little bit of thought for a print style sheet, especially for something you know that people are likely going to want to print or to save to PDF, that's a nice touch. STEPHANIE: Yeah. So, good luck, Brian, and let us know how this goes and any outcomes you find successful. So, for today's longer topic, I was excited because I saw, Joël, you dropped something in our topic backlog: Multidimensional Numbers. I'm curious what prompted this idea and what you wanted to say about it. JOËL: We did an episode a while back where we talked about value objects, wrapping numbers, wrapping collections. This is Episode 386, and we were talking about tallying, specifically working with collections of T-shirt sizes and doing math on these sort of objects that might contain multiple numbers. And a sort of sidebar from that that we didn't really get into is the idea that objects that contain sort of multiple numbers can be treated as a number themselves. And I think a great example of this is something like a point in two-dimensional space. It's got an x coordinate, a y coordinate. It's two numbers, but you can treat sort of the combination of the two of them together as a single number. There's a whole set of coordinate math that you can do to do things like add coordinates together, subtract them, find the distance between them. There's a whole field of vector math that we can do on those. And I think learning to recognize that numbers are not just instances of the integer or the float class but that there could be these more complex things that are also numbers is maybe an important realization and something that, as developers, if we think of these sort of more complex values as numbers, or at least mathematical objects, then that will help us write better code. STEPHANIE: Cool. Yeah. When you were first talking about 2D points, I was thinking about if I have experience working with that before or, like, having to build something really heavily based off of, like, a canvas or, you know, a coordinate system. And I couldn't think of any really good examples until I thought about, like, geographic locations. JOËL: Oh yeah, like a latitude, longitude. STEPHANIE: Yeah, exactly. Like, that is a lot more common, I think, for various types of just, like, production applications than 2D points if you're not working on, like, a video game or something like that, I think. JOËL: Right, right. I think you're much more likely to be working with 2D points on some more sort of front-end-heavy application. I was talking with someone this week about managing a seat map for concerts and events like that and sort of creating a seat map and have it be really interactive, and you can, like, click on seats and things like that. And depending on the level of libraries you're using to build that, you may have to do a lot of 2D math to make it all come together. STEPHANIE: Yeah. So, I would love to get into, you know, maybe we've realized, okay, we have some kind of compound number. What are some good reasons for using them differently than you would a primitive? JOËL: So, you mentioned primitives, and I think this is where maybe I'm developing a reputation about, like, always wanting value objects for everything. But it would be really easy, let's say, for an xy point to be just an array of two numbers or maybe even a hash with an x key and a y key. What's tricky about that is that then you don't have the ability to do math on them. Arrays do define the plus operator, but they don't do what you want them to do with points. It's the set union. So, adding two points would not at all do what you want, or subtracting two points. So, instead, if you have a custom 2D point class and you can define plus and minus on there to do the right thing, now they're not pairs of numbers, two values; they're a single value, and you can treat them as if they are just a single number. STEPHANIE: You mentioned that arrays don't do the right thing when you try to add them up. What is the right thing that you're thinking of then? JOËL: It probably depends a little bit on the type of object you're working with. So, with 2D points, you're probably trying to do vector addition where you're effectively saying almost, like, "Shift this point in 2D space by the amount of this other point." Or if you're doing a subtraction, you might even be asking, like, "What is the distance between these two points?" Euclidean distance, I think, is the technical term for this. There's also a couple of different ways you can multiply values. You can multiply a 2D point by just a sort of, not by another point, but by just an integer. That's called scaling. So, you're just like, oh, take this point in 2D space, but make it bigger, make it five times bigger or five times further from the origin. Or you can do some stuff with other points. But what you don't want to do is turn this into, if you're starting with arrays, you don't want to turn this into an array of four points. When you add two points in 2D space, you're not trying to create a point in 4D space. STEPHANIE: Whoa, I mean [laughs], maybe you're not. JOËL: You could but -- [laughter] STEPHANIE: Yeah. While you were saying that, I guess that is what is really cool about wrapping, encapsulating them in objects is that you get to decide what that means for you and your application, and -- JOËL: Yeah. Well, plus can mean different things, right? STEPHANIE: Yeah. JOËL: On arrays, plus means combining two arrays together. On integers, it means you do integer math. And on points, it might be vector addition. STEPHANIE: Are there any other arithmetic operators you can think of that would be useful to implement if you were trying to create some functionality on a point? JOËL: That's a good question because I think realizing the inverse of that is also a really powerful thing. Just because you create a sort of new mathematical object, a point in 2D space, doesn't mean that necessarily every arithmetic operator makes sense on it. Does it make sense to divide a point by another point? Maybe not. And so, instead of going with the mindset of, oh, a point is a mathematical object, I now need to implement all of arithmetic on this, instead, think in terms of your domain. What are the operations that make sense? What are the operations you need for this point? And, you know, maybe the answer is look up what are the common sort of vector math operations and implement those on your 2D point. Some of them will map to arithmetic operators like plus and minus, and then some of them might just be some sort of custom method where maybe you say, "Oh, I want the Euclidean distance between these two points." That's just a thing. Maybe it's just a named instance method on there. But yeah, don't feel like you need to implement all of the math operators because that's a mistake that I have made and then have ended up, like, implementing nonsensical things. STEPHANIE: [laughs] Creating your own math. JOËL: Yes, creating my own math. I've done this even on where I've done value objects to wrap single values. I was doing a class to represent currency, and I was like, well, clearly, you need, like, methods to, like, add or subtract your currency, and that's another thing. If you have, let's say, a plus method, now you can plug it into, let's say, reduce plus. And you can just sum a list of these currency objects and get back a new currency. It's not even going to give you back an integer. You just get a sort of new currency object that is the sum of all the other ones, and that's really nice. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's really cool. It reminds me of all the magic of enumerable that you had talked about in a previous conference talk, where, you know, you just get so much out of implementing those basic operators that, like, kind of scales in handiness. JOËL: Yes. Turns out Ruby is actually a pretty nice system. If you have objects that respond to some common methods and you plug them into enumerable, and it just all kind of works. STEPHANIE: So, one thing you had said earlier that I've felt kind of excited about and wanted to highlight was you mentioned all the different ways that you could represent a 2D point with more primitive data stores, so, you know, an array of two integers, a hash with xy keys. It got me thinking about how, yeah, like, maybe if your system has to talk to another system and you're importing data or exporting data, it might eventually need to take those forms. But what is cool about having an encapsulated object in your application is you can kind of control those boundaries a little bit and have more confidence in terms of the data types that you're using within your system by having various ways to construct that, like, domain object, even if the data coming in is in a different shape. JOËL: And I think that you're hitting on one of the real beauties of object-oriented programming, where the sort of users of your object don't need to know about the internal representation. Maybe you store an array internally. Maybe it's two separate instance variables. Maybe it's something else entirely. But all that the users of your, let's say, 2D point object really need to care about is, hey, the constructor wants values in this shape, and then I can call these domain methods on it, and then the rest just sort of happens. It's an implementation detail. It doesn't matter. And you alluded, I think, to the idea that you can sort of create multiple constructors. You called them constructors. I tend to call them that as well. But they're really just class methods that will kind of, like, add some sugar on top of the constructor. So, you might have, like, a from array pair or from hash or something like that that allows you to maybe do a little bit of massaging of the data before you pass it into your constructor that might want some underlying form. And I think that's a pattern that's really nice. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I agree. JOËL: Something that can be interesting there, too, is that mathematically, there are multiple ways you can think of a 2D point. An xy coordinate pair is a common one, but another sort of system for representing a point in 2D space is called the polar coordinate system. So, you have some sort of, like, origin point. You're 0,0. And then, instead of saying so many to the left and so many up from that origin point, you give an angle and a distance, and that's where your point is. So, an angle and distance point, I think, you know, theta and magnitude are the fancy terms for this. You could, instead of creating a separate, like, oh, I have a polar coordinate point and a Cartesian coordinate point, and those are separate things, you can say, no, I just have a point in 2D space. They can be constructed from either an xy coordinate pair or a magnitude angle pair. Internally, maybe you convert one to the other for internal representation because it makes the math easier or whatever. Your users never need to know that. They just pass in the values that they want, use the constructor that is most convenient for them, and it might be both. Maybe some parts of the app require polar coordinates; some require Cartesian coordinates. You could even construct one of each, and now you can do math with each other because they're just instances of the same class. STEPHANIE: Whoa. Yeah, I was trying to think about transforming between the two types as well. It's all possible [laughs]. JOËL: Yes. Because you could have reader-type methods on your object that say, oh, for this point, give me its x coordinate; give me its y coordinate. Give me its distance from the origin. Give me its angle from the origin. And those are all questions you can ask that object, and it can calculate them. And you don't need to care what its internal representation is to be able to get all four of those. So, we've been talking about a lot of these sort of composite numbers, not composite numbers, that's a separate mathematical thing, but numbers that are composed of sort of multiple sub-numbers. And what about situations where you have two things, and one of them is not a number? I'm thinking of all sorts of units of measure. So, I don't just have three. I have three, maybe...and we were talking about currency earlier, so maybe three U.S. dollars. Or I don't just have five; I have five, you know, let's say, meters of distance. Would you consider something like that to be one of these compound number things? STEPHANIE: Right. I think I was–when we were originally talking about this, conflating the two. But I realized that, you know, just because we're adding context to a number and potentially packaging it as a value object, it's still different from what we're talking about today where, you know, there's multiple components to the number that are integral or required for it to mean what we intended to mean, if that makes sense. JOËL: Yeah. STEPHANIE: So yeah, I guess we did want to kind of make a distinction between value objects that while the additional context is important and you can implement a lot of different functionality based on what it represents, at the end of the day, it only kind of has one magnitude or, like, one integer to kind of encapsulate it represented as a number. Does that sound right? JOËL: Yeah. You did throw out the words encapsulation and value object. So, in a situation maybe where I have three US dollars, would you create some kind of custom object to wrap that? Or is that a situation where you'd be more comfortable using some kind of primitive? Like, I don't know, maybe an array pair of three and the symbol USD or something like that. STEPHANIE: Oh, I would definitely not do that [laughter]. Yeah. Like I, you know, for the most part, I think I've seen that as a currency object, and that expands the world of what we can do with it, converting into a lot of different other currencies. And yeah, just making sure those things don't get divorced from each other because that context is what gives it meaning. But when it comes to our compound numbers, it's like, without all of the components, it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't even represent the same, like, numerical value that we were trying to convey. JOËL: Right. You need both, or, you know, it could be more than two. It could be three, four, or five numbers together to mean something. You mentioned conversions, which I think is something that's also interesting because a lot of units of measure have sort of multiple ways of measuring, and you often want to convert between them. And maybe that's another case where encapsulation is really nice where, you know, maybe you have a distance object. And you have five meters, and you put that into your distance object, but then somebody wants it in feet somewhere else or in centimeters, or something like that. And it can just do all the conversion math safely inside that object, and the user doesn't have to worry about it. STEPHANIE: Right. This is maybe a bit of a tangent, but as a Canadian living in the U.S., I don't know [laughs] if you have any opinions about converting meters and feet. JOËL: The one I actually do the most often is converting Celsius to Fahrenheit and vice versa. You know, I've been here, what, 11 years now? I don't have a great intuition for Fahrenheit temperatures. So, I'm converting in my head just [laughs] on a daily basis. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that makes sense. Conversions: they're important. They help out our friends who [laughs] are on different systems of measurement. JOËL: There's a classic story that I love about unit conversions. I think it's one of the NASA Mars missions. STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. JOËL: You've heard of this one. It was trying to land on Mars, and it burned up in the atmosphere because two different teams had been building different components and used different unit systems, both according to spec for their own module. But then, when the modules try to talk to each other, they're sending over numbers in meters instead of feet or something like that. And it just caused [laughs] this, like, multi-year, multi-billion dollar project to just burn up. STEPHANIE: That's right. So, lesson of the day is don't do that. I can think of another example where there might be a little bit of misconceptions in terms of how to represent it. And I'm thinking about time and when that has been represented in multiple parts, such as in hours and, minutes and seconds. Do you have any initial impressions about a piece of data like that? JOËL: So, that's really interesting, right? Because, at first glance, it looks like, oh, it's, like, a triplet of hour, minute, seconds. It's sort of another one of these sort of compound numbers, and I guess you could implement it that way. But in reality, you're tracking a single quantity, the amount of time elapsed, and that can be represented with a single number. So, if you're representing, let's say, time of day, what would show up on your clock? That could be, depending on the resolution, number of, let's say, seconds since midnight, and that's a single counter. And then, you can do some math on it to get hours, minutes, seconds for a particular moment. But really, it's a single quantity, and we can do that with time. We can't do that with a 2D point. Like, it has to have two components. STEPHANIE: So, do you have a recommendation for what unit of time time would best be stored? I'm just thinking of all the times that I've had to do that millisecond, you know, that conversion of, you know, however many thousands of milliseconds in my head into something that actually means [laughs] something to me as a human being who measures time in hours and minutes. JOËL: My recommendation is absolutely go for a single number that you store in your, let's say, time of day object. It makes the math so much easier. You don't have to worry about, like, overflowing from one number into another when you're doing math or anything like that. And then the number that you count should be at the whatever the smallest resolution you care at. So, is there ever any time where you want to distinguish between two different milliseconds in time? Or maybe you're like, you know what? These are, like, we're tracking time of day for appointments. We don't care about the difference between two milliseconds. We don't need to track them independently. We don't even care about seconds. The most granular we ever care about things is by the minute. And so, maybe then your internal number that you track is a counter of minutes since midnight. But if you need more precision, you can go down to seconds or milliseconds or nanoseconds. But yeah, find what is the sort of the least resolution you want to get away with and then make that the unit of measure for a single counter in your object. And then encapsulate that so that nobody else needs to care that, internally, your time of day object is doing milliseconds because nobody wants to do that math. Just give me a nice, like, hours and minutes method on your object, and I will use that. I don't need to know internally what it's using. Please don't just pass around integers; wrap it in an object, especially because integers, there's enough times where you're doing seconds versus milliseconds. And when I just have an integer, I never know if the person storing this integer means seconds or milliseconds. So, I'm just like, oh, I'm going to pass to this, like, user object, a, like, time integer. And unless there's a comment or a constant, you know, that's named something duration in milliseconds or something like that, you know, or sometimes even, like, one year in milliseconds, or there's no way of knowing. STEPHANIE: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. When you kind of choose a standard of a standard unit, it's, like, possible to make it easier [laughs]. JOËL: So, circling back to sort of the initial thing that sparked this conversation, the previous episode about T-shirt inventories, there we were dealing with what started off as, like, a hash of different T-shirt sizes and quantities of T-shirts that we had in that size, so small (five), medium (three), large (four). And then, we eventually turned that into a value object that represented...I think we called it a tally, but maybe we called it inventory. And this may be wrong, so tell me if I'm wrong here, I think we can kind of treat that as a number, as, like, one of these compound numbers. It's a sort of multidimensional number where you say, well, we have sort of three dimensions where we can have numbers that sort of increase and decrease independently. We can do math on these because we can take inventories or tallies and add and subtract them. And that's what we ended up having to do. We created a value object. We implemented plus and minus on it. There are rules for how the math works. I think this is a multidimensional number with the definition we're working on this show. Am I wrong here? STEPHANIE: I wouldn't say that you're wrong. I think I would have to think a little [laughs] more to say definitively that you're right. But I know that this example came from, you know, an application I was actually working on. And one of the main things that we had to do with these representations [laughs], I'm hesitant to call them a number, especially, but we had to compare these representations frequently because an inventory, for example, in a warehouse, wanting to make sure that it is equal to or there's enough of the inventory if someone was placing an order, which would also contain, like, a representation of T-shirt size inventory. And that was kind of where some of that math happened because, you know, maybe we don't want to let someone place an order if the inventory at the warehouse is smaller than their order, right? So, there is something really compelling about the comparison operations that we were doing that kind of is leaning me in the direction of, like, yeah, like, it makes sense to me to use this in a way that I would compare, like, quantities or numbers of something. JOËL: I think one thing that was really compelling to me, and that kind of blew my mind, was that we were trying to, like, figure out some things like, oh, we've got so many people with these size preferences, and we've got so many T-shirts across different warehouses. And we're summing them up and we're trying to say like, "How many do we need to purchase if there is a deficit?" And we can come up with effectively a formula for this. We're like, sum these numbers, when we're talking about just before we introduce sizes when it's just like, oh, people have T-shirts. They all get the count of people and a count of T-shirts in our warehouse, and we find, you know, the difference between that. And there's a few extra math operations we do. Then you introduce size, and you break it down by, oh, we've got so many of each. And now the whole thing gets really kind of messy and complicated. And you're doing these reduces and everything. When we start treating the tally of T-shirts as an object, and now it's a number that responds to plus and minus, all of a sudden, you can just plug those back into the original formula, and it all just works. The original formula doesn't care whether the numbers you're doing this formula on are simple integers or these sort of multidimensional numbers. And that blew my mind, and it was so cool. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that is really neat. And you get a lot of added benefits, too. I think the other important piece in the T-shirt size example was kind of tracking the state change, and that's so much easier when you have an object. There's just a lot more you can do with it. And even if, you know, you're not persisting every single version of the representation, you know, because sometimes you don't want to, sometimes you're really just kind of only holding it in memory to figure out if you need to, you know, do something else. But other times, you do want to persist it. And it just plugs in really well with, like, the rest of object-oriented programming [laughs] in terms of interacting with the rest of your business needs, I think, in your app. JOËL: Yeah, turns out objects, they're kind of nice. And you can do math with them. Who knew? Math is not just about integers. STEPHANIE: And on that note, shall we wrap up? JOËL: Let's wrap up. STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!! AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Enjoy this interview with Logan Crumrine, a Crohn's disease warrior of more than 30 years, advocate, and writer. Logan was first diagnosed in 1990. For years he fluctuated between states of flares, semi-remission, clinical trials and surgeries, and then went into complete remission for over 15 years! But remission came to an end in 2012 and he spent the next few years fighting for his life and eventually filed for disability. Today, he's now in his second year of remission and living life to the fullest.  Some of you will remember Logan as one of my repeat guests. He shared the first part of his story in episode 29 of this podcast in July 2019, and came back a year later in 2020 to talk about his experience and knowledge about going through the process of filing for disability.  Today, he's back to update us on his journey and share what it's like to now live in remission. From the show: Stephanie: What kind of tips do you have for other people who are finding themselves newly in remission and still afraid to let go of the habits that they've held onto for so many years as their safety net? Logan: I think the best advice would be that you've kind of got to do your own walk in that. You've got to kind of let go of those things as you feel comfortable. I still carry supplies in my backpack, but I don't carry as many. I don't carry an extra change of clothes, so my backpack has gotten down to just some undergarments in there and some stuff to clean up if I need to. It's a much smaller kit, but again, I'm still learning. It's still automatic for me to put all that stuff on when I'm going out. And I think it's just, you just kind of have to challenge yourself and push yourself. It helps too that I have Leah with me, who's an incredible partner who reminds me, ‘hey, you know, you made this trip a couple of times without anything. Why don't you try it again?' Or I'll be able to share with her that I didn't even get ready like I normally do for a trip. And then it's kind of an epiphany almost to say, ‘oh wow, we don't need that stuff all the time anymore.' Stephanie: You've shared on social media a few times about struggling with Crohn's and depression. Can you talk about how you've coped through some of the hardest times and how has remission affected your overall mental health? Logan: I think remission has helped my mental health and has benefited it. I still struggle with depression and sometimes, some days, it's absolutely debilitating. Right now, my depression seems to be presenting itself with insomnia. So I can be tired at seven o'clock and think, okay, I'm going to head to bed around nine and then I'm up till two. So it seems to be presenting that way. I think being in a place with more sunlight has helped. Seasonal depression affected me really bad in Washington because where I lived in Washington, from about October to March, it's very dark and very gray. It's nice to be able to look out the window and see blue skies and sun, I'm trying to get back to exercising because that's so vital to mental health. Stephanie: You have shared on social media about your fitness journey and just getting to a place of better overall health, what were some of the baby steps or the ways that you started to get back into that as you were feeling better? Logan: I think that, and for the record, my hiking and walking come and go, like any kind of fitness thing, I do really good for a while and kind of back off for a little while. I think that one thing that I had to do is realize that I have to start with what I can do, even if it's five minutes of getting outside and taking a walk. I started when I was starting to get my health back. I was just literally doing laps around the cul-de-sac. And that's all I could do, just walk around the cul-de-sac very slow with a cane. It was very difficult for me to even get out and do anything. And now, I mean, where I was at the height that's kind of dropped off since we moved, but I'm trying to get back into it. I think I was doing three or four miles a day walking. I was lifting regularly because again, medications that you get on Crohn's and colitis, steroids, sometimes those things play havoc on your bones. Links from the show: Social Media www.instagram.com/logancrumrine Studies on steroids and blood sugar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515447/pdf/WJD-6-1073.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8394226/ What if the Monsters are Afraid of Me (Book) https://a.co/d/elzLPAW Previous episodes with Logan: https://www.podbean.com/ * * * * * Support the podcast ❤️ at https://www.crohnsfitnessfood.com Get your copy of Crohn's Fitness Food and My Rocky Road to Health, Shop my favorite products, Read my favorite books, Subscribe to the podcast, Send a little love/coffee

Engineering manager at Vox Media and author Nicole Zhu joins Stephanie on today's episode to discuss her writing practice. nicoledonut is a biweekly newsletter about the writing process and sustaining a creative life that features creative resources, occasional interviews with creative folks, short essays on writing and creativity, farm-to-table memes and TikToks, and features on what Nicole is currently writing, reading, and watching. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Kieran Culkin on learning about billionaires filming Succession (https://www.tiktok.com/@esquire/video/7215641441597410603?_r=1&_t=8bPK4Ingkf5) The Home Depot skeleton (https://twitter.com/jenni_tabler/status/1566266554240888832) Nicole Zhu's newsletter (https://nicoledonut.com/) The Making of a Manager by Julie Zhuo (https://www.juliezhuo.com/book/manager.html) Saving Time by Jenny Odell (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/672377/saving-time-by-jenny-odell/) Transcript: STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. And today, I'm joined by my friend and special guest, Nicole Zhu. NICOLE: Hi, I'm so excited to be here. My name is Nicole, and I am an Engineering manager at Vox Media and a writer. STEPHANIE: Amazing, I'm so thrilled to have you here. So, Nicole, we usually kick off the show by sharing a little bit about what's new in our world. And I can take us away and let you know about my very exciting weekend activities of taking down our Halloween skeleton. And yes, I know that it's April, but I feel like I've been seeing the 12-foot Home Depot skeletons everywhere. And it's becoming a thing for people to leave up just their Halloween decorations and, just as the other holidays keep rolling on, changing it up so that their skeleton is wearing like bunny ears for Easter or a leprechaun hat for St. Patrick's Day. And we've been definitely on the weird skeleton in front of the house long past the Halloween train for a few years now. Our skeleton's name is Gary. And it's funny because he's like a science classroom skeleton, so not just plastic. He's actually quite heavy. NICOLE: He's got some meat to the bones. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Yeah, yeah, and physiologically correct. But we like to keep him out till spring because we got to put him away at some point so that people are excited again when he comes back out in October. And the kids on our block really love him. And yeah, that's what I did this weekend. [laughs] NICOLE: I love it. I would love to meet Gary one day. Sounds very exciting. [laughs] I do get why you'd want to dress up the skeleton, especially if it's 12 feet tall because it's a lot of work to put up and take down for just one month, but that's fascinating. For me, something new in my world is the return of "Succession," the TV show. STEPHANIE: Oh yes. NICOLE: I did not watch yesterday's episode, so I'm already spoiled, but that's okay. But I've been getting a lot of Succession TikToks, and I've been learning a lot about the making of the show and the lives of the uber-rich. And in this one interview with Kieran Culkin, the interviewer asked him, "What's something that you learned in shooting the show about the uber-rich about billionaires that's maybe weird or unexpected?" And Kieran Culkin says that the uber-rich don't have coats because they're just shuttled everywhere in private jets and cars. They're not running to the grocery store, taking the subway, so they don't really wear coats, which I thought was fascinating. It makes a lot of sense. And then there was this really interesting clip too that was talking about the cinematography of the show. And what is really interesting about it is that it resists the wealth porn kind of lens because it's filmed in this mockumentary style that doesn't linger or have sweeping gestures of how majestic these beautiful cities and buildings and apartments they're in. Everything just seems very matter of fact because that is just the backdrop to their lives, which I think is so interesting how, yeah, I don't know, where I was like, I didn't ever really notice it. And now I can't stop seeing it when I watch the show where it's about miserable, rich people. And so I like that the visual language of the show reflects it too. STEPHANIE: Wow, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The coat thing really gets me because I'm just imagining if I could be perfectly climate controlled all the time. [laughs] NICOLE: Right? Oh my gosh, especially you're based in Chicago [laughs], that is when you can retire the winter coat. That is always an important phase. STEPHANIE: Yeah, seriously. I also am thinking now about just like the montages of showing a place, just movies or shows filmed in New York City or whatever, and it's such...so you know it's like the big city, right? NICOLE: Mmm-hmm, mm-hmm. STEPHANIE: And all of that setup. And it's really interesting to hear that stylistically, that is also different for a show like this where they're trying to convey a certain message. NICOLE: Yeah, yeah, definitely. STEPHANIE: So I'm really excited to have you on The Bike Shed because I have known you for a few years. And you write this really amazing newsletter called "nicoledonut" about your writing practice. And it's a newsletter that I open every other week when you send out a dispatch. And last year at RubyConf, they had a conference track called Bringing Your Backgrounds With You. And there were talks that people gave about how the hobbies that they did outside of work or an identity that they held made them a better developer, like, affected how they showed up at work in a positive way. And as someone who has always been really impressed by the thoughtfulness that you apply to your writing practice, I was really curious about how that shows up for you as an engineering manager. NICOLE: Definitely a great question. And to provide a bit of context for listeners, I feel like I have to explain the newsletter title because it's odd. But there's a writer who I really love named Jenny Zhang, and her handle across the Internet is jennybagel. And so I was like, oh, that would be so funny. I should be nicoledonut. I do love donuts. My Neopets username was donutfiend, so it was -- STEPHANIE: Hell yeah. NICOLE: But anyway, so that was kind of...I was like, I need to come up with some fun title for this newsletter, and that is what I settled on. But yes, I've written personal essays and creative nonfiction. And my primary focus more recently these past few years has been fiction. And this newsletter was really kind of born out of a desire to learn in the open, provide resources, act as kind of a journal, and just process ideas about writing and what it means to kind of sustain a creative life. So it has definitely made me more reflective and proactively, like you said, kind of think about what that means in terms of how that transfers into my day job in engineering. I recently moved into management a little over a year ago, and before that, I was a senior full-stack engineer working on a lot of our audience experiences and websites and, previously, more of our editorial tools. So I think when it comes to obviously writing code and being more of an individual contributor, I think you had previously kind of touched on what does it mean to treat code as a craft? And I do think that there are a lot of similarities between those two things because I think there's creativity in engineering, of course. You have to think about going from something abstract to something concrete. In engineering, you're given generally, or you're defining kind of requirements and features and functionality. You may be make an engineering plan or something like that, an EDD, given those constraints. And then I think writing is very similar. You outline, and then you have to actually write the thing and then revise. I do think writing is not necessarily as collaborative as coding is, perhaps, but still similar overall in terms of an author having a vision, dealing with different constraints, if that's word count, if it's form or structure, if it's point of view, things like that. And that all determines what the outcome will be. You always learn something in the execution, the idea that planning can only take you so far. And at a certain point, you gather as much background knowledge and information and talk to as many people. Depending on the kinds of writing I do, I have or haven't done as much research. But at a certain point, the research becomes procrastination, and I know I need to actually just start writing. And similarly, with engineering, I think that's the piece is that once you actually start implementation, you start to uncover roadblocks. You uncover questions or complications or things like that. And so I think that's always the exciting part is you can't really always know the road ahead of you until you start the journey. And I also think that in order to benefit from mentorship and feedback...we can talk more about this. I know that that's something that is kind of a larger topic. And then another thing I think where the two are really similar is there's this endless learning that goes with each of them. I guess that's true of, I think, most crafts. Good practitioners of the craft, I think, take on that mindset. But I do think that obviously, in engineering, you have industry changes, new technologies emerging really frequently. But I do think that good writers think about that, too, in terms of what new novels are coming out. But also, how do you build a solid foundation? And I do think it's that contrast that applies in any craft is, you know, you want to have a good solid foundation and learn the basics but then keep up to date with new things as well. So I think there was this...there's this meme I actually did include in the newsletter that was...it's the meme of these two guys looking at different windows of a bus, and one looks really sad, and one looks really happy. But the two of them have the same caption, which is there's always more to learn. And so I think that is the two sides of the coin [laughs]. I think that is relevant in engineering and writing that I've kind of brought to both of those practices is trying to be optimistic [laughs] about the idea that there's always more to learn that that's kind of the thought of it. And then certainly, when it comes to management, I do think that writing has proven really valuable in that very obvious sense of kind of practical communication where I just write a lot more. I write a lot more things that are not code, I should say, as a manager. And communication is really at the forefront of my job, and so is demonstrating curiosity and building empathy, fostering relationships with people. And I do think that particularly writing fiction you have to be curious about people I think to be a writer. And I think that is true of managers as well. So I do think that has been a really interesting way that I didn't anticipate writing showing up in my day job but has been a really helpful thing and has made my work stronger and think about the people, the process, and kind of what we do and why a little differently. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. Wow, you got into a lot of different things I'm excited to keep discussing further. But one thing that I was thinking about as you were talking was, have you heard of the adage, I guess, that code is read many more times than it's written? NICOLE: Hmm, I think I have, yeah. STEPHANIE: I was thinking about that as you were talking because, in some ways, in most ways, actually, if you ascribe to that adage, I suppose, we write code for others to read. And I think there's an aspect of code telling a story that is really interesting. I've heard a lot of people advocate for writing, thoughtbot included, writing your tests like they're telling a story. And so when a future developer is trying to understand what's going on, they can read the tests, understand the setup, read what is being tested, and then read what the expected outcome is and have a complete picture of what's going on. The same goes for commit messages. You are writing little bits of documentation for people in the future. And I've also been thinking about how legacy code is just this artifact as well of all of the changes that an organization might have gone through. And so when you see something that you see a bit of code that is really weird or gets your spidey senses tingling, it's almost like, oh, I wonder what happened here that led to this piece left behind? NICOLE: Yeah, definitely. Now that you're talking about it, I also think of pull requests as a great way to employ storytelling. I remember there definitely have been times where myself or other engineers are working on a really thorny problem, and we always joke that the PR description is longer than the change. And it's like, but you got to read the PR description in order to understand what change you're making and why. And here's the backstory, the context to kind of center people in that. As a manager, I think about storytelling a lot in terms of defining purpose and providing clarity for teams. I was reading Julie Zhuo's "The Making of a Manager," and it was a really kind of foundational text for me when I first was exploring management. And she kind of boils it down to people, purpose, and process. And so I do think the purpose part of that is really tied to clear communication. And can you tell a story of what we're doing from really high-level vision and then more tactically strategy? And then making sure that people have bought into that, they understand, can kind of repeat that without you being there to remind them necessarily. Because you really want that message to carry through in the work and that they have that understanding. Vision is something I only recently have really started to realize how difficult it is to articulate. It's like you don't really understand the purpose of vision until you maybe don't have one, or you've been kind of just trying to keep your head afloat, and you don't have a Northstar to work towards. But I do think that is what plays into motivation, and team health, and, obviously, quality of the product. So yeah, that's kind of another dimension I've been thinking of. And also our foes actually. Sorry, another one. Our foes, I think, like outages and incidents. I think that's always a fun opportunity to talk about stories. There was a period of time where every time we had an incident, you had to present that incident and a recap of it in an engineering all-hands every month. And they ended up being really fun. We turned something that is ostensibly very stressful into something that was very entertaining that people could really get on board with and would learn something from. And we had the funniest one; I think was...we called it the Thanks Obama Outage because there was an outage that was caused by a photo of Barack Obama that had been uploaded in our content management system, as required no less, that had some malformed metadata or something that just broke everything. And so, again, it was a really difficult issue [laughs] and a long outage. And that was the result that I remember that presentation being really fun. And again, kind of like mythmaking in a way where that is something that we remember. We pay attention to that part of the codebase a lot now. It's taught us a lot. So yeah, I do think storytelling isn't always necessarily the super serious thing, but it can also just be team building, and morale, and culture as well. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. I think what you said about vision really resonates with me because if you don't have the vision, then you're also not making the best decisions you can be making even something as low-level as how you write the code. Because if you don't know are we going to be changing this feature a month from now, that might dictate how you go forth with implementation as opposed to if you know that it's not in the company's vision to really be doing anything else with this particular feature. And you then might feel a little more comfortable with a more rudimentary approach, right? NICOLE: Yeah, totally. Whether or not it's, we've over-optimized or not or kind of optimized for speed. Like, it's all about trade-offs. And I do think, again, like you said, having a vision that always you can check your decision-making against and inform the path ahead I think is very, very helpful. STEPHANIE: When you write, do you also keep that in mind? Like, do you write with that North Star? And is that really important to your process? NICOLE: I think it depends. I think that writing can be a little more at a slant, I suppose, is how I think of it because I don't always...just similar to work, I don't always come in with a fully-fledged fleshed-out vision of what I want a piece to be. The most recent piece I've been working on actually I did have kind of a pretty, I think, solid foundation. I've been working on this story about loneliness. And I knew that I wanted to base the structure on the UCLA...a UCLA clinic has this questionnaire that's 20 items long that is about measuring loneliness on a scale. And so I was like, okay, I knew that I wanted to examine dimensions of loneliness, and that would be the structure. It would be 20 questions, and it would be in that format. So that gave me a lot more to start with of, you know, here's where I want the piece to go. Here's what I want it to do. And then there have definitely been other cases where it's more that the conceit seems interesting; a character comes to mind. I overhear a conversation on the subway, and I think it's funny, and that becomes the first thing that is put on the page. So I definitely have different entry points, I think, into a draft. But I will definitely say that revision is the phase where that always gets clarified. And it has to, I think, because as much as I'm sometimes just writing for vibes, it's not always like that. And I do think that the purpose of revision is to clarify your goals so you can then really look at the piece and be like, is it doing what I want it to? Where is it lacking? Where's it really strong? Where's the pacing falling flat? And things like that. So I do think that sooner or later, that clarity comes, and that vision comes into focus. But it isn't always the first thing that happens, I think, because I do think the creative process is a little bit more mysterious, shall we say, than working on an engineering team. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Yeah. Well, you started off responding to my question with it depends, which is a very engineering answer, but I suppose -- NICOLE: That is true. That is true. You got me. [laughs] STEPHANIE: It applies to both. MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. 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NICOLE: When it comes to receiving feedback, I think I wrote a two-part series of my newsletter, one that was about providing feedback, one that was about receiving it. I think on the side of receiving feedback, first and foremost, I think it's important to know when you're ready to share your work and know that you can share multiple times. In writing, that can be I show a very early draft to my partner who is the person who kind of reads everything and anything at any stage. It's something less polished, and I'm really just testing ideas. But then obviously, if there's something that is more polished, that is something I would want to bring to a writing group, bring into a workshop, things like that. Similarly, as engineers, I think...thank God for GitHub drafts actually adopting literally the way in which I think of that, right? STEPHANIE: Yeah. NICOLE: You can share a branch or a GitHub PR in progress and just check the approach. I've done that so many times, and really that helped so much with my own learning and learning from mentors in my own organization was checking in early and trying to gut-check my work earlier as opposed to later. Because then you feel, I think, again, a bit more naturally receptive because you're already in that questioning phase. You're not like, oh, this is polished, and I've written all the tests, and the PR description is done. And now you want me to go back and change the whole approach from the ground up. That can feel tough. I get that. And so I think, hand in hand, what goes with that is whose feedback are you interested in? Is that a peer? Is it a mentor? I think obviously leaning on your own team, on senior engineers, I do think that is one of the primary, I think, expectations of a senior engineer is kind of multiplying the effectiveness of their peers and helping them learn and grow. So I do think that that's a really valuable skill to develop on that end, but also, again, just approaching people. And obviously, different teams have different processes for that, if it's daily stand-ups, if it's GitHub reminders, automated messages that get pulled up in your channel, things like that. But there are ways to build that into your day-to-day, which I think is really beneficial too. And then there's also the phase of priming yourself to receive the feedback. And I think there's actually a lot of emotional work that I don't think we talk about when it comes to that. Because receiving feedback can always be vulnerable, and it can bring up unexpected emotions. And I think learning how to regulate the emotional response to that is really valuable for us as people but obviously within the workplace too. So I've found it really helpful to reflect if I'm getting feedback that...well, first of all, it depends on the format. So I think some people prefer verbal feedback, some people will prefer written. I think getting it in the form of written feedback can be helpful because it provides you some distance. You don't have to respond in the moment. And so I've definitely had cases where I then kind of want to reflect on why certain suggestions might elicit certain reactions if I have a fight or flight response, if I'm feeling ashamed or frustrated, or indignant, all the range of emotions. Emotions are, to put the engineering hat on, are information. And so I think listening to that, not letting it rule you per se but letting it inform and help you figure out what is this telling me and how do I then respond, or what should I do next? Is really valuable. Because sometimes it's not, again, actually the feedback; maybe it's more about that, oh, it's a really radical idea. Maybe it's a really...it's an approach I didn't even consider, and it would take a lot of work. But again, maybe if I sit and think about it, it is the scalable approach. It's the cleaner approach, things like that. Or are they just touching on something that I maybe haven't thought as deeply about? And so I think there is that piece too. Is it the delivery? Is it something about your context or history with the person giving the feedback too? I think all of those, the relationship building, the trust on a team, all plays into feedback. And obviously, we can create better conditions for exchanging and receiving feedback. But I do think there's still that companion piece that is also just about, again, fostering team trust and culture overall because that is the thing that makes these conversations all the easier and less, I think, potentially fraught or high pressure. STEPHANIE: 100%. Listeners can't see, but I was nodding very aggressively [laughs] this entire time. NICOLE: Loved it. STEPHANIE: And I love that you bring up interpersonal relationships, team culture, and feelings. Listeners of the show will know that I love talking about feelings. But I wanted to ask you this exact question because I think code review can be so fraught. And I've seen it be a source of conflict and tension. And I personally have always wanted more tools for giving better feedback. Because when I do give feedback, it's for the person to feel supported to help push their work to be better and for us to do good work as a team. And I am really sensitive to the way that I give feedback because I know what it's like to receive feedback that doesn't land well. And when you were talking about investigating what kinds of feelings come up when you do receive a certain kind of comment on a code review or something, that was really interesting to me. Because I definitely know what it's like to have worked really, really hard on a pull request and for it to feel very precious to me and then to receive a lot of change requests or whatever. It can be really disappointing or really frustrating or whatever. And yeah, I wish that we, as an industry, could talk about this stuff more frequently. NICOLE: Yeah, for sure. And I do think that you know, I think the longer you work with someone, ideally, again, the stronger relationship you form. You find your own ways of communicating that work for you. I think actually what I've learned in management is, yes, I have a communication style, but I also am flexible with how I work with each of my reports, who, again, have very different working styles, communication styles, learning styles. I don't believe that the manager sets the standards. I think there is a balance there of meeting people where they are and giving them what they need while obviously maintaining your own values and practices. But yeah, certainly, again, I think that's why for perhaps more junior engineers, they might need more examples. They might not respond well to as terse a comment. But certainly, with engineers, senior engineers that I've worked with, when I was starting out, the more we developed a relationship, they could just get a little bit more terse. For example, they could be like, "Fix this, fix that," and I would not take it personally because we had already gone through the phase where they were providing maybe some more detailed feedback, links to other examples or gists, or things like that, and our communication styles evolved. And so I do think that's another thing to think about as well is that it doesn't have to be static. I think that's the value of a team, and having good team process, too, is ideally having arenas in which you can talk about how these kinds of things are going. Are we happy with the cadence? Are we happy with how people are treating each other and things like that? Are we getting timely feedback and things like that? That's a good opportunity for a retrospective and to talk about that in a kind of blameless context and approach that more holistically. So I do think that, yeah, feedback can be very fraught. And I think what can be difficult in the world of engineering is that it can be very easy to then just be like, well, this is just the best way for the work. And feelings are, like you said, not really kind of considered. And, again, software development and engineering is a team sport. And so I do think fostering the environment in which everyone can be doing great work is really the imperative. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I really like how you talked about the dynamic nature of relationships on a team and that the communication style can change there when you have built that trust and you understand where another person is coming from. I was also thinking about the question of whose feedback are you interested in? And I certainly can remember times where I requested a review from someone in particular because maybe they had more context about this particular thing I was working on, and I wanted to make sure that I didn't miss anything, or someone else who maybe I had something to learn from them. And that is one way of making feedback work for me and being set up to receive it well. Because as much as...like you said, it's really easy to fall back into the argument of like, oh, what's the best way for the work, or what is the cleanest code or whatever? I am still a person who wrote it. I produced a piece of work and have feelings about it. And so I have really enjoyed just learning more about how I react to feedback and trying to mitigate the stress that I feel in what is kind of inherently like a conflict-generating process. NICOLE: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Another thing that kind of popped into my head to one of the earlier questions we were talking about is in terms of similarities between writing and engineering, style and structure are both really, really important. And even though in engineering, like you said, sometimes it can be, I mean, there is a point with engineering where you're like, this line of code works, or it doesn't. There is a degree of correctness [laughs] that you do have to meet, obviously. But again, after that, it can be personal preference. It's why we have linters that have certain styles or things like that to try to eliminate some of these more divisive, shall we say, potentially discussions around, [laughs] God forbid, tabs or spaces, naming conventions, all this stuff. But certainly, yeah, when it comes to structuring code, the style, or whatever else, like you said, there's a human lens to that. And so I think making sure that we are accounting for that in the process is really important, and not just whether or not the work gets done but also how the work gets done is really important. Because it predicts what do future projects...what does future collaboration look like? And again, you're not just ever optimizing for one thing in one point of time. You're always...you're building teams. You're building products. So there's a long kind of lifecycle to think about. STEPHANIE: For sure. So after you get feedback and after you go through the revision process, I'm curious what you think about the idea of what is good enough in the context of your writing. And then also, if that has influenced when you think a feature is done or the code is as good as you want it to be. NICOLE: Yeah, definitely. I think when it comes to my writing, how I think about what is good enough I think there is the kind of sentiment common in the writer community that you can edit yourself to death. You can revise forever if you wanted to. It's also kind of why I don't like to go back and read things I've already published because I'm always going to find something, you know, an errant comma or like, oh, man, I wish I had rephrased this here. But I do think that, for me, I think about a couple of questions that help me get a sense of is this in a good place to, you know, for me generally, it's just to start submitting to places for publication. So one of those is, has someone else read it? That is always a really big question, whether it's a trusted reader, if I brought it to a workshop, or just my writing group, making sure I have a set of outside eyes, fresh eyes on the piece to give their reaction. And again, truly as a reader, sometimes just as a reader, not even as a fellow writer, because I do think different audiences will take different things and provide different types of feedback. Another one is what kinds of changes am I making at this point in time? Am I still making really big structural edits? Or am I just kind of pushing words and commas around, and it feels like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? They're not massive changes to the piece. And then the final question is always, if this were published in its current state right now, would I be happy with it? Would I be proud of it? And that's a very gut feeling that I think only an individual can kind of feel for themselves. And sometimes it's like, no, I don't like the way, like, I know it's 95% there, but I don't like the way this ends or something else. Again, those are all useful signals for me about whether a piece is complete or ready for submission or anything like that. I think when it comes to engineering, I think there's a little bit less of the gut feeling, to be honest, because we have standards. We have processes in place generally on teams where it's like, is the feature working? Have you written tests? Have you written a QA plan if it needs one? If it's something that needs more extensive documentation or code comments or something like that, is that something you've done? Has a bit more of a clear runway for me in terms of figuring out when something is ready to be shown to others. But certainly, as a manager, I've written a lot more types of documents I suppose, or types of communication where it's like organizational changes. I've written team announcements. I've written celebration posts. I've had to deliver bad news. Like, those are all things that you don't think about necessarily. But I've definitely had literally, you know, I have Google Docs of drafts of like, I need to draft the Slack message. And even though it's just a Slack message, I will spend time trying to make sure I've credited all the right people, or provided all the context, got all the right answers. I run it by my director, my peers, and things like that if it's relevant. And again, I think there is still that piece that comes in of drafting, getting feedback, revising, and then feeling like, okay, have I done my due diligence here, and is it ready? That cycle is applicable in many, many situations. But yeah, I certainly think for direct IC work, it's probably a little bit more well-defined than some of the other processes. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that makes sense. I really liked what you said about noticing the difference between making big structural changes and little word adjustments. I think you called it pushing commas around or something like that. NICOLE: [laughs] Yeah. STEPHANIE: I love that. Because I do think that with programming, there is definitely a big part of it that's just going on the journey and exploring different avenues. And so if you do suddenly think of, oh, I just thought of a completely different way to write this code, that is worth exploring even if you just end up going back to the original implementation. But at least you saw that thought through, and you're like, okay, this doesn't work because of X, Y, and Z, and I'm choosing to go this other route instead. And I think that, yeah, that is just a good practice to explore. NICOLE: Another example of storytelling, too, where it's like, you can tell the story in the PR description or whatever, in stand-up, to be like, I also did go down this path, XYZ reason. Here's why it didn't work out, and here's what we're optimizing for. And there you go. So I do think we talk...I guess product managers think more about buy-in, but I think that's true of engineers too. It's like, how do you build consensus and provide context? And so yeah, I think what you were saying, too, even if the path is circuitous or you're exploring other avenues, talking to other people, and just exploring what's out there, it all adds up to kind of the final decision and might provide, again, some useful information for other people to understand how you arrived there and get on board with it. STEPHANIE: 100%. I remember when I worked with someone who we were writing a PR description together because we had paired on some code. And we had tried three different things. And he wrote paragraphs for each thing that we tried. And I was like, wow, I don't know if I would have done that on my own. But I just learned the value of doing that to, like you said, prime yourself for feedback as well, being like, I did try this, and this is what I thought. And other people can disagree with you, but then at least they have the information, right? NICOLE: Definitely. STEPHANIE: So before we wrap up, the last thing that I wanted to talk about, because I think it's super cool, is just how you have a totally separate hobby and skill and practice that you invest time and energy into that's not programming. And it's so refreshing for me to see you do that because I think, obviously, there's this false idea that programmers just code all the time in their free time, in their spare time, whatever. And I'm really curious about how writing fits into your life as something separate from your day job. NICOLE: Yes, I've been thinking about this a ton. I think a lot of people, the last couple of years has forced a really big reckoning about work and life and how much we're giving to work, the boundaries that can be blurred, how capitalism butts its head into hobbies, and how we monetize them, or everything is a side hustle. And, oh, you should have a page running...oh, you should charge for a newsletter. And I think there's obviously the side of we should value our labor, but also, I don't want everything in my life to be labor. [laughs] So I do think that is interesting. Writing to me, I actually do not see it as a hobby. I see it as another career of mine. I feel like I have two careers, but I have one job, [laughs] if that makes sense. I certainly have hobbies. But for me, what distinguishes that from my writing is that with hobbies, there's no expectation that you want to get better. You approach it with just...it's just pure enjoyment. And certainly, writing has part of that for me, but I have aspirations to publish. I love it when my work can reach readers and things like that. But I do think that regardless having other interests, like you said, outside engineering, outside technology, it's a great break. And I do think also in technology, in particular, I notice...I think we're getting away from it, but certainly, there's an expectation, like you said, that you will have side projects that you code in your free time, that you're on Hacker News. I think there is a little bit of that vibe in the tech industry that I don't see in other industries. You don't expect a teacher to want to teach in their free time, [laughs] you know what I mean? But we have almost that kind of implicit expectation of engineers to always be staying up to date on those things. I think with writing and engineering; the two complement each other in some interesting ways. And they make me appreciate things about the other craft or practice that I may not previously have. And I think that with engineering, it is a team effort. It's really collaborative, and I really love working in that space. But on the flip side, too, with writing, I do love, you know, there's the ego part of it. You don't have individual authorship over code necessarily unless it's git blame level. But there's a reason why it's called git blame, [laughter] even the word is like git blame. I've literally had cases where I'm like, oh, this thing is broken. Who wrote this? And then I was like, oh, surprise, it was you six years ago. But I do think with writing; it's an opportunity for me to really just explore and ask questions, and things don't have to be solved. It can just be play. And it is a place where I feel like everything that I accomplish is...obviously, I have people in my life who really support me, but it is a much more individual activity. So it is kind of the right-left brain piece. But I've been reading this book called "Saving Time." It is what my microphone is currently propped on. But it's by Jenny Odell, who wrote: "How to Do Nothing." It's breaking my brain in a really, really, really good way. It talks a lot about the origin of productivity, how we think about time, and how it is so tied to colonialism, and racism, and capitalism, and neoliberalism, all these things. I think it has been really interesting. And so thinking about boundaries between work and writing has been really, really helpful because I really love my job; I'm not only my job. And so I think having that clarity and then being like, well, what does that mean in terms of how I divide my time, how I set examples for others at work in terms of taking time off or leaving the office on time? And trying to make sure that I have a good emotional headspace so that I can transition to writing after work; all those things. I think it is really interesting. And that also, ultimately, it's we're not just our productivity either. And I think writing can be very, again, inherently kind of unproductive. People joke that cleaning is writing, doing the dishes is writing, taking a walk is writing, showering is writing, but it is true. I think that the art doesn't talk about efficiency. You can't, I think, make art always more efficient in the same way you can do with engineering. We don't have those same kinds of conversations. And I really like having that kind of distinction. Not that I don't like problem-solving with constraints and trade-offs and things like that, but I also really like that meandering quality of art and writing. So yeah, I've been thinking a lot more about collective time management, I guess, and what that means in terms of work, writing, and then yeah, hobbies and personal life. There are never enough hours in the day. But as this book is teaching me, again, maybe it's more about paradigm shifting and also collective policies we can be putting in place to help make that feeling go away. STEPHANIE: For sure. Thank you for that distinction between hobby and career. I really liked that because it's a very generative mindset. It's like a both...and... rather than an either...or... And yeah, I completely agree with you wanting to make your life expansive, like, have all of the things. I'm also a big fan of Jenny Odell. I plugged "How to Do Nothing" on another episode. I am excited to read her second book as well. NICOLE: I think you'll like it a lot. It's really excellent. She does such interesting things talking about ecology and geology and geographic time skills, which is really interesting that I don't know; it's nice to be reminded that we are small. [laughter] It's a book that kind of reminds you of your mortality in a good way, if that makes sense. But much like Gary on your porch reminds you of mortality too [laughs] and that you have to put Gary away for a little bit so that his time can come in October. [laughs] STEPHANIE: Exactly, exactly. Cool. On that note, let's wrap up. Thank you so much for being on the show, Nicole. NICOLE: Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why Google's search results page is more important than your website homepage Why the most successful law firms are involved in their marketing, even when they hire an outside agency How a firm's intake process can make or break their SEO efforts Why content marketing today is about quality, not quantity Why consistent Google reviews are the key to ranking higher About Stephanie Chew: Stephanie Manor Chew is award-winning law firm analyst andDirector of Sales and Head of the Elite Sales Team at Digital Law Marketing. For the last 16 years, she has been helping clients build credibility and increase their visibility online through the full lifecycle of digital initiatives. From custom search engine marketing and social media positioning, to targeted content and online reputation management, she makes sure that DLM clients get what they need, when they need it. Additional Resources: Digital Law Marketing Website  Stephanie's LinkedIn Digital Law Marketing Facebook Transcript: Gone are the days when you could simply outsource everything to an SEO agency and expect results. To rank on Google today, law firms must take an active role in overseeing and executing their marketing plan. Stephanie Chew, Director of Sales at Digital Law Marketing, finds that the company's most successful clients collaborate with them to achieve the best possible outcome. She joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about why content is no longer king; why a firm's intake process is the most important part of lead generation; and how consistent Google reviews can boost your SEO efforts. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon:          Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Stephanie Chew. She is the Director of Sales at Digital Law Marketing, and she's speaking to us from Annapolis, Maryland. The company is headquartered in Nashville but is basically a virtual firm and works all over the country. Digital Law Marketing encompasses a wide range of digital aspects today, and no law firm can live without them. From SEO to PPC to social media, a law firm can make a case for each of them, especially when they work together. Today, Stephanie is going to educate us on what's new in digital law marketing, where we should start and what we can't live without. Stephanie, welcome to the program.   Stephanie:    Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.   Sharon:          Stephanie, tell us your background. How did you end up doing this? You didn't tell your mother this is what you wanted to do where you were little, I don't think.   Stephanie:    It's funny; I always wanted to be in advertising in some respects. I was just telling my daughter this the other night when we were watching the Super Bowl. Watching the Super Bowl with my father, I was always so fascinated by the ads, and I always knew I wanted to do something around advertising and marketing. After college, I started with Trader Publishing Company, which is now Dominion Enterprises. It has changed hands a couple of times, but it's basically selling advertising space to car dealers. Then it turned into apartment communities, like for-rent magazines, things of that nature, and then that led me over to the SEO world, the website world. Then I started working with law firms in 2009, and I've been here ever since.   Sharon:          That's a long time with law firms. I can relate. I wonder what would have happened if I had been in advertising when SEO started. I'm involved in SEO, but I thought advertising was my dream job and quickly found it wasn't. What would you say that lawyers have to do differently in digital marketing?   Stephanie:    They have to be a part of the partnership. In the first part of my career, we would come in and help firms and companies by putting ads in newspapers or books, and the firm or the business really didn't have to do much. Now the most successful firms out there are involved with their marketing, maybe not as much as we are, but they're a pretty big part of it. More than they ever have been. For instance, getting reviews is incredibly important now, so the firm has to work to get reviews. We can make a firm tell Google how amazing the firm is. We can create an amazing website with wonderful content, great SEO strategy, but if the firm isn't getting reviews, they're not going to get business. Now, more so than it's ever been, the firm has to be behind the digital focus and be a part of what their partners are doing to help them become successful online.   Sharon:          That's interesting, because when I read a review, the first thing I look at is, “Is this a legitimate review or is something the company wrote?” I hadn't thought about how involved lawyers have to be, how involved everybody has to be. It's not just something done in the back room.   Stephanie:    Right. The firms that are the most successful online, the lawyers are actually asking for those reviews directly themselves. We've seen firms where they've hired people to get reviews for them. They're never as successful as the actual attorney asking for that review themselves. So, asking for those reviews is one thing we always push our firms to do because, like you said, you look at those reviews to see if they're real or not. Most people look first at the newest reviews, the most recent review that was posted, and then they look at the lowest review. Those are the two categories that people care the most about. So, it's important for the firm to be involved just as much as the marketing company to make sure your reputation is good too.   Sharon:          Do you explain that from the very beginning, that they have to be involved?   Stephanie:    Yes, and we will only work with firms that will be involved. We're very lucky that we're exclusive, so we only work with one firm per practice area per geographic location. If a firm isn't a partner with us, there's only so much we can do for them. But having that partnership, we are the best in what do. We like working with the best firms. It creates the best partnership for everybody's success. But yes, it's very important that they're also a part of their own success up front.   Sharon:          When you say success, is that lead generation? Is it just what they're doing?   Stephanie:    Yes, lead generation. Our goal is to help firms become visible online organically. Our main focus is search engine optimization, which is organic placement on search engines. We do paid ads, and we're very good at doing paid ads as well, but it's that organic placement that you get the most return from. The more rankings these firms have on the search engines, the more phone calls they're going to get and then hopefully the more cases they get. It really does work that way. We can track a ranking on the search engines, and then we track their phone and work with them to hear how many cases they're getting, and it really does work in that direction.   Sharon:          Social media and the paid stuff aside, do you encourage lawyers to write articles? Does this help?   Stephanie:    With our clients, we handle all of the writing because there are couple of different ways you have to write. Number one, you have to write to make sure you're the voice of the firm and it makes sense. You're writing about cases you're looking to get, but you also have to make sure you're writing so the search engines can recognize you. For instance, a very popular search phrase right now is “near me,” like “car accident attorney near me,” “car accident lawyer near me,” “dentist near me,” “best optometrist near me.” It's making sure you get those “near me” keywords in your content, making sure your content includes questions and answers, because a lot of people are asking questions of the search engines.   We do have firms that like to write themselves. Attorneys are wonderful writers, but if they're not writing so the search engines can recognize what they're saying, it's not going to help them become more visible when it comes to these search phrases. It's a balance. We do all the writing for our clients with their approval, but if somebody does want to write here and there, we encourage that. We would just help with massaging the SEO and the content.   Sharon:          Would you massage the SEO or the stuff that makes them go higher in the rankings? If they have a website already, would you say, “It's wonderful, but we can go in and do some things”? What do you do?   Stephanie:    99% of the time, we rebuild and redesign and develop the website first. The reason we do that is because a lot of how your website is built is how you're going to perform on the search engines. For instance, if you have a very slow website, Google does not like that. Your site speed is a factor if you're going to rank or not. So, we like to go in and clean up the website so we have a good product to work with to then help with SEO. From there, we write content, build out the content, create site maps, really get to know the firm, their voice, and figure out the types of cases they're looking for. Then we write content around that to help them rank on the search engines.   Sharon:          Are you called in when they say, “We're about to embark on a rebuild of our website”? It seems to me they already have one when they call you in.   Stephanie:    Sometimes that happens, where we start working with a firm and they just rebuilt their website, and we have to give them the bad news of “I'm really sorry, but this website isn't going to perform.” We wouldn't take on that client because we want to set up the proper expectations of success for our clients. If you have a marketing company tell you, “Oh no, that's O.K. Your website's slow, but we could still work with it,” that would be a red flag because it won't work as well as it could if you redid the site. It happens sometimes.   Sharon:          Going back to the “near me,” I don't even enter that, but that comes up as a choice to click on.   Stephanie:    Yeah, that's usually right.   Sharon:          That's interesting. What do you mean by content writing? Is that what you mean when you're making sure the content—   Stephanie:    When it comes to content, you have the content pages on the website. Some of the most popular content pages on a law firm's website would be their practice area pages. You might have a page on wrongful death. You might have a page on car accidents. You might have a page on personal injury. Then each one of those pages includes content. The type of content on that page could be question and answer, could be including those words “near me.”   Google pulls from that content to determine how you're going to rank based on the way the person is searching. You'll see a lot of times where Google does an instant answer. If they're asking a question, “what is the statute of limitations in the state of California for a wrongful death case,” a law firm's content page could answer that question, so they'll bring it up as the first result.   There's also blogging. You want to make sure you're blogging on a regular basis. In the past, it was as much content as you could put on there. The phrase “content is king” is gone. That used to be the way we spoke when you would push content, push content, push content. Now, it's more about the quality of content versus the quantity of content. It's making sure it's good content that's enriched with the types of cases you're looking for, and written well so the search engines recognize you as an expert on that topic with experience and expertise in the discussion. Google will see that and help you rank better based on the content and what you're saying.   Sharon:          Is that per lawyer? Let's say on the home page of the website you have banners or badges that say, “We're the best.” Or is it in the bio?   Stephanie:    It would be in a practice area page. When somebody does a search for a car accident lawyer, let's say, Google wants to provide them with the most specific information they're looking for. So, they'll more likely pull up a car accident page from your website and show that over your home page. Your home page should be a summary of everything you do, and then the content pages are more specific on each practice area. When somebody does find you, they're going to find that practice page usually over your home page, but all of your content should include things that are easily identifiable for Google.   Sharon:          I always laugh when I see a bio that says they specialize in 20 different things, because how many can you specialize in? What would you do? Would you put everything the firm does? What would you do in order to come up?   Stephanie:    With a bio, you really want to focus on that attorney and what they've done and that's it. When it comes to the actual practice area pages, that's where you would focus on that practice area. Then maybe you could put in a little sentence or two about which attorney does that, if that makes sense. There are ways of doing it. It's not necessarily a right answer or a wrong answer. It depends on the firm, the market, the practice area. But there are ways you can incorporate that being specific to the attorney and what their expertise is versus what the whole firm does on the bio page, if that makes sense.   Sharon:          It does make sense. Should you put successes like, “We won a case that was really hard to win for $10,000 and John Smith did it”?   Stephanie:    Oh yeah, verdicts and settlements pages and verdicts and settlements in general are some of the most visited areas on the websites. People want to see numbers. There are some markets where they might not be allowed to put verdict and settlement numbers on their website, or the firm doesn't feel like it's appropriate to do that. But by the way, law firms that put their numbers on their websites get more attraction than the ones that don't.   Sharon:          The big question is do people choose a personal injury firm because they like the lawyer? It's a nice, touchy-feely firm versus one that's won all of these big numbers but they might not like as much. How do you choose? What's more important?   Stephanie:    That's a good question. Again, it comes back to the person choosing and what's important to them on why they're choosing, but if you don't have the big numbers, you definitely want to talk about what you've done. A lot of people want to feel that they can relate to that attorney. I always say talk as much as you can about things you've done to help other people. If I had a case that was specific and I read that that attorney has helped other people with the same thing I have, I'm more likely to work with them regardless of what the numbers are because I feel like they could help me. If you don't have those big numbers, you want to discuss what you've done because people will be able to relate to that.   We're also big believers in putting personal information into those bios. Talk about your hobbies, talk about your children, because people relate to things. There are so many situations where I've heard that this attorney got a case because somebody saw they had the same hobby, they went rafting or whatever it was, and their son had passed away, or that they were calling him because he had the same alma mater. Obviously that is a big one people gravitate toward. Outside of politics—I would stay away from writing anything related to politics—the more information you can humanize yourself with, it's going to help people connect with you better and they'll end up hiring you.   Sharon:          That's interesting. I've heard that both ways. I tend to relate to people, so I would like to know more about them. That's interesting that you should put it in your bio. Are you usually called in the beginning or are they already underway? Why are you called in? Tell us about your business. That's several questions, sorry.   Stephanie:    That's O.K. Usually we're called in when a firm is looking to take their law firm to that next step and they're looking for more cases. They're not showing up online. They're not getting phone calls. They're not getting cases online. A lot of times, we're called in to firms that have worked with referrals for pretty much their whole law career. They're always getting referrals, and they're tired of paying those referral fees to other attorneys. They'd like to generate cases themselves from the internet. Then we would be brought in to help them analyze what's going on in their market and what their current web presence is. Then we can put together a plan to get them to where they need to be to generate more calls that generate the cases they're looking for. It's usually somebody that wants to make more money off the internet in some way, like they're tired of paying referral fees and/or they're looking for more visibility and better-quality cases. We hear that a lot; that we help firms create better-quality cases over anything else.   Sharon:          Better quality meaning larger cases, bigger numbers?   Stephanie:    It could be anything. It could be that it's a firm that did a bunch of slip and fall cases and now they're getting bigger and better quality personal injury cases. It's medical malpractice firms that used to get a lot of junk calls and now they're getting quality calls, things like that. We're really good at SEO, and we're really good at creating more rankings for somebody organically. Usually when somebody finds a firm organically, they tend to be better qualified, quality leads.   Sharon:          Do you keep your eye on the changes in the Google algorithm?   Stephanie:    Yeah, we have a SEO specialist that works with digital marketing. We're all senior level, too. I always like to mention that because our SEO specialists are also very recognized in their SEO space. We have one Google Product Expert that works for us. She's one of 50 in the world. She's outstanding. We also have a Google Local Search expert who's been nationally recognized. They're the ones that keep up with the trends and how things are changing, and then we push that down to all of our firms. We're constantly moving in different directions with content and with SEO strategies based on the changes in the Google algorithm and changes in how we as human beings search. It is ever-changing. If you looked back 10 years ago from today, it's totally different to what we're doing. Even a year ago, it's a different strategy than what we were doing.   Sharon:          That sort of leads me to the next question. When I search, you have to skip like 10 sponsored ads. Is it possible to be high organically?   Stephanie:    Absolutely. It's interesting because Google has put a lot of emphasis on their paid ads. They have a newer ad called the Local Services Ad. It's been around for two years now, but those are the ones where there are pictures at the top of the page. They're considered Google screened, but they're driven by reviews and making sure that somebody answers the phone and other things in your budget. But the biggest driver of those is how frequently you're getting reviews, which is interesting that Google is doing that. So, there are different types of advertising they're doing, and they're pulling in an organic element with those reviews. Below that you have your pay-per-click, which is the paid advertising for Google Ad Words, and then you have your local. But yes, local SEO is still the sweet spot of getting calls. The firms we see, the majority of the calls come in through that local SEO space.   Sharon:          When you say you only take one practice area and one geographic area, do you have a map divided up? What do you call a geographic area?   Stephanie:    It depends on the marketplace, but a lot of it has to do with where the office is located. For instance, we have a state where the firm has 10 office locations throughout the state. Well, they're the only personal injury firm in that state because they have so many offices, so we're not going to work with anybody else. It comes down to who their competitors are. Our whole thing is we're not going to work with your competition. If it's too close for comfort, we go to our clients first and have them tell us if it's O.K. if we work with them, yes or no based on the competition, and we will or we won't. We do not cross that line at all. We are 100% exclusive, and that's why. We only have a handful of clients per state because it's all we want. We don't want to be the biggest SEO company out there. We want to be the best, and we feel that we are.   Sharon:          What do you do if you're in a room of lawyers, whether it's partners or not, and they say, “Reviews aren't a problem. Sally in marketing handles the reviews”? What do you do then?   Stephanie:    It depends. Maybe Sally in marketing really does do a great job and she is getting multiple reviews a week. That would be awesome. We wouldn't have a problem with that at all. But if Sally in marketing hasn't gotten a review for six months, we can see that. We can say, “Oh, that's great, but the best thing for firms is to get consistent reviews on a regular basis. Two to three reviews a week would be ideal.” We can show that they're responding to them, that they're engaging with that list, and we really push that.   We've had situations where we have gotten firms top ranked—I keep trying to say first page, but there are no pages anymore when it comes to Google. It's about rank. You can't even scroll. So, we could get somebody at the top of the rank of the search engine, but if their reviews aren't good, nobody's going to call them. We've done our job, but nobody's going to call you if your reviews aren't good. It's a two-way street. We coach our firms. We encourage them. We do a lot with intake. We can audit phone calls and help them figure out how people are handling their calls. It's a lot of coaching and encouraging and trying to do our best to get them to do their part, too.   Sharon:          I think you just preempted my next question. You can have wonderful numbers, but if they fill out the intake form and nobody sees it—   Stephanie:    Yeah, if they're not answering the phone. We see this a lot. We'll do audits with some of the most successful firms in lots of different situations. I'll never forget there was a catastrophic injury/medical malpractice firm, and a lady called very upset saying that her daughter was just diagnosed with cerebral palsy, and the woman's like, “I don't know if we do that. Hold on. Let me check. Yeah, we do that.” Now the confidence is shot. There's no way. These are not the people to hire.   Intake is such a big part of these firms. It's probably the most important part that our lawyers aren't paying attention to right now. Not all our firms, but in our industry in general. We're doing a lot with our clients to help them with that, but in our industry as a whole, I feel like intake is probably the area that can be improved the most.   Sharon:          People don't talk about that enough, I think. They talk about how much money everybody is spending on SEO and organic, but not about when the calls come in, where they were sent or what happens. Stephanie:    It's really a salesperson on that line if you think about it. As you said, firms are spending thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of dollars a month in marketing, but who's answering that phone? All your dollars are going out the window when you don't have the right person. They usually want to cut costs on those types of positions, when really it should be handled as a sales organization. Some of the more sophisticated PI firms, those large firms that are coming into different markets, are handling those as sales calls. It's changing. I've seen firms do a great job, but I do think that's one of the first things that is overlooked. Hopefully it's coming to light now. More firms are starting to do better at it, but you've got to take care of all the parts.   Sharon:          There are a lot of parts. I was laughing when you said content is king because that's what people used to say. There was a time, a long time ago, when you could tell somebody, “Just write a lot about what you do and you'll be O.K.,” but that's long gone.   Stephanie:    Yeah, it's gone now.   Sharon:          Would you say that a website is the hub of everything a person is doing when they're doing paid ads and SEO?   Stephanie:    I probably would have used to say that, but what I would say now is if you do a search for the firm's name on Google, that is the new homepage. Whatever you see that comes up there is what I would be more concerned about than even the homepage of your website. The reason I say that is because if you do a search—let's say you're a car accident lawyer and somebody finds you by doing a search for car accident lawyers. They are going to see your presence on Google pop up first. Sometimes they'll go directly to your website; sometimes they'll look at your reviews before even looking at your website; sometimes they'll look at where you are before doing that. There's a lot of information they can find out before even getting to your website.   If somebody does a Google search of your firm name, on the right-hand side of that search is usually where you'll see the Google information and Google reviews, but on the left-hand side is all those other directories out there, which could have bad reviews. That shows up before somebody even gets to your homepage. It used to be that your website is the hub of everything. It's still incredibly important, and maybe it still is the hub, but when it comes to your reputation, you really need to see what Google has on your firm. What is your brand telling people before they even get to your website? What are all these directories saying? What are all these reviews saying about you?   Sharon:          What are you seeing with all the sponsored ads? I just happened to look at your website, and there are about five sponsored ads before you even get to yours. What do you do? Is that part of it?   Stephanie:    If you were to google Digital Law Marketing, there are other law marketing companies that will bid on our name to show up ahead of us. That happens. Or somebody could be bidding on digital marketing or terms like that, but people can see that they're sponsored or paid ads. You can see that right there. Most people, if they're looking for the real website, will pass those and go directly to the organic.   Now, some people search differently. Some people would click on the first one they see, but users are becoming a lot more sophisticated than they ever have been, so they understand what an ad is. Sometimes ads are the best result. Google has also done a good job with the ad program so that sometimes the best information you're finding is in the ads. It depends, but it's hard to get away from those ads. One thing you could do as a business is bid on your name. For instance, we bid on Digital Law Marketing, so we're one of the first that pops up when somebody does type in our name. But you do want to make sure you're aware of what is on the internet about your brand.   Sharon:          It seems like the world has changed so much as a marketing person who's interested in everything you're talking about. For the firm to be at the top and on social media and everywhere, you need a bunch of experts. They need their own team. You can't be an expert in everything or just a lawyer who's interested in marketing.   Stephanie:    You're absolutely right. We touch on social media, but there's so much more you could be doing with social media. There are so many different avenues and elements of everything. You could have, like you said, a whole team. You hire a company like ours to manage the website, the SEO, the paid ads. Then you have somebody that does social media video, optimization and things of that nature. Then you get somebody that just does PR. PR companies and SEO companies work really well together because it creates good results when they do. There are so many different things. It's not just hiring one person and they can do everything.   Sharon:          But the marketing person or the lawyer who's interested should also be auditing calls or at least know what's happening.   Stephanie:    Yeah, and there are so many different tools now. We use something called dynamic call tracking where you can record every call. We're constantly spot checking and listening to our clients' calls to make sure the leads are being handled properly once we bring them to the law firm. If they don't, they're not going to see the success of their marketing dollars.   Sharon:          Have you ever had to make changes because of the dynamic call tracking?   Stephanie:    Yeah, we've had to. We've actually had to not renew agreements with clients. In almost 10 years with Digital Law Marketing, we've only lost a handful of clients, and two of those we actually let go ourselves. The reason we let them go is because they weren't helping themselves and they weren't helping to be a partner. At the end of the day, nobody would be successful. Lots of times we have these hard conversations with firms and say, “O.K., this what we found out. We did an audit and 40% of the calls aren't being answered.” The firms are very receptive to it, and they make changes quickly. That's why they hire us, because they know we'll help them with making those decisions. We've had lots of hard conversations with firms, but if firms aren't willing to help themselves, it's hard for us to help them.   Sharon:          I presume you've been in the position where you've come in to replace another SEO firm.   Stephanie:    Oh, yeah.   Sharon:          How long should a law firm wait to see results?   Stephanie:    Good question. We ask all of our clients at Digital Law Marketing to give us one year of SEO. After that, it's month to month. We don't renew clients because if you don't want to be with us after a year, then we're probably not the right fit. But we don't lose clients because we can show you within a year what we've been able to do for you. If it's not us, then try somebody else. I would definitely give it a year.   Just yesterday, I had a call from somebody who was frustrated because their marketing company had been working for three months and the results weren't showing up. I'm like, “You really need to give them longer than three months. Give them a good year. I'm not going to say you're going to be at the height of your performance in a year, not at all, but you will see progression.” We tell people all the time, “We'll be able to show you in the first 90 to 120 days how you're ranking better, how you're getting more phone calls.” We continually show that progression because it takes years to get really good visibility on search engines. You're telling Google who you are over a long, consecutive period of time of building your brand, but you will see progression quickly. You're just not going to see ultimate results for some time.   Sharon:          You must have lot of people say, “A whole year? You want me to wait a whole year before I start to evaluate?”   Stephanie:    People have figured it out now. It used to be more of a challenge five years ago, but people have figured it out. SEO takes a while. With paid ads you can see a return a little quicker, but it's still not as quick as it used to be. With paid advertising, we tell everybody to give it at least three to four months. There are so many people that are doing paid advertising, so it takes a little longer. It used to be that you were able to see results in a day, but it's different the way things are working now. It just takes time, but if you're consistent and you're doing the right thing over a consistent period of time, you will see the right results with the right company. You have to make sure you trust who you're working with, too.   Sharon:          That's probably a big factor. One of the last questions, if you can tell us, is about how people find you. Do they only find you because of a web search, or do they find you other ways? How do they find you?   Stephanie:    The law firm?   Sharon:          Yeah, how do your clients find you, so they call you versus another company?   Stephanie:    They could do a web search and find us that way. We are Diamond Sponsors of the American Association for Justice, the AAJ. It's a national organization. We're also sponsors of the National Trial Lawyers. We do travel a couple of times a year to conventions and meet new firms. A lot of our clients come from other clients because our clients tell our story a lot better than anybody else. On our website, we have a bunch of FAQs and testimonials from our clients, but they can look us up on Google, social media and through our website.   We have a form on there so we can do free SEO audits for firms. We'd love for them to fill that out and see if it's something we can help firms with. We are working with firms all over the country, but we do have markets available, so we'd love to hear from anybody that's interested in not having to hire a company again. A lot of times, people come to us and say, “I'm tired of switching companies every year or every two years.” Our clients don't have to do that anymore. So, come to us and you don't have to continually look further.   Sharon:          That's a big point of differentiation. For everybody listening, we'll make sure to have the website link and any other links. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it, Stephanie.   Stephanie:    Thank you for having me, Sharon. It was fun.   Sharon:          Thanks. Stephanie:    Take care.

“There are so many people that need my help. They just don't know about me yet,” shares Stephanie German, executive strategist and owner of German Business Consulting. In today's episode, Stephanie shares how career networking and implementing organizational processes can take your business from ugly to beautiful.   There are community groups for almost everything, you just have to look for them. Find a group where you belong and show up consistently. This will help you to build a referral network within your local community. Then, make sure that you have organizational processes in place to make it possible for you to delegate tasks to employees. Even if you are a solopreneur, you may end up wanting an assistant or social media manager eventually and having your processes written down will help make that transition smoother.   Whether you are a solopreneur or have a larger business, you can benefit from having organizational processes in place that capture leads and enable you to follow up more easily. By building a referral network, you will be able to give back to others and receive genuine leads in return. Tune in to learn more about how networking and organizational processes are the key to taking your business from ugly to beautiful.    Quotes “If I'm not modeling and doing what I'm telling clients to do, then I have no business telling them to do X, Y, and Z because I'm not doing it.” (14:57-15:08 | Stephanie)  “There are so many people that need my help. They just don't know about me yet.” (27:20-27:24 | Stephanie)  “You really have to find what works for you. What works for me and my personality and how I function isn't going to be the same for someone else.” (30:11-30:19 | Stephanie) “Create a system that captures leads and allows you to follow up.” (43:50-43:55 | Stephanie) Links:   Connect with Stephanie German: So Your Boss Can't Lead: https://www.stephaniegerman.com/so-your-boss-cant-lead/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegerman/ Website: https://www.stephaniegerman.com/ Amy & Denyse LOVE to network.  Follow us on Instagram @midlifeatthemailbox and personally @AmyLAlex28 and @DenyseRabbat.   Tag yourself listening to our episodes, make us laugh with your midlife moment or share your favorite episode of our show with your friends on Instagram and we will share it back to our community! #midlifemoment   Do you enjoy our podcast? We'd love your help in growing our community. Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Midlife at the Mailbox on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!   One last note, both Amy & Denyse offer coaching services. Are you ready to promote your business or yourself? What about just a heads up that we have dropped a new episode? Sign up to receive emails from Midlife at the Mailbox. https://view.flodesk.com/pages/630a92cd2812b898e99a8f06   Thanks for listening, see you at the Mailbox! Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Stephanie shares that she's been taking an intro to basket weaving class at a local art studio, and it's an interesting connection to computer science. Joël eats honeycomb live on air and shares a video that former Bike Shed host Steph Viccari found from Ian Anderson. It's a parody to the tune of "All I Want For Christmas Is You," but it's all about the Ruby 3.2 release. In this episode, Stephanie and Joël shift away from literature and lean into art. Writing code is technical work, but in many ways, it's also aesthetic work. It's a work of art. How do you feel about expressing yourself creatively through your code? This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Weaving, Computing, and the Jacquard Loom (https://www.scienceandindustrymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/jacquard-loom) Ian Anderson's Ruby Christmas song (https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmAxL_ZNMOa/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D) Dan McKinley's Boring Technology Club slides (https://boringtechnology.club/) Simple English Wikipedia (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) Geepaw Hill's Twitter thread about levels of thinking (https://twitter.com/GeePawHill/status/1565389543628480518) Julia Evans's debugging puzzles (https://mysteries.wizardzines.com/) Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin (https://bookshop.org/p/books/tomorrow-and-tomorrow-and-tomorrow-gabrielle-zevin/17502475) Transcript: AD: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program. We'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. STEPHANIE: And I'm Stephanie Minn. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: I'm really excited to share that I've been taking this intro to weaving class at a local art studio. I'm actually a few weeks in, and it's wrapping up soon. But one thing that I found really cool at the very first class was that the instructor mentioned that weaving was, in some ways, a predecessor or inspiration to modern computing. And he said that, and I got really excited because surely that meant that I would be good at this thing [laughs] and this craft, and then I promptly kind of forgot about it. But I was inspired the other night to look up this history to just learn more about weaving and its connection to computer science. And I learned that, in particular, the invention of something called the Jacquard loom really led to early computing machines because, basically, weaving involves threading horizontal and vertical fibers. And the way you do it if you thread the horizontal fiber, also called the weft, over or under the vertical fibers, called the warp, you get different patterns. And so with the Jacquard loom, this invention utilized punch cards as instructions for basically binary code, and that would tell the loom how to raise and lower those vertical threads, which would then lead to a beautiful pattern. And after that invention, this previously very laborious process became automated. And that also had a really big impact on the textile industry. And fabric became a lot more available at a much lower cost. So that was a really cool little history lesson for me. JOËL: That is really cool. So are you saying that punch cards, as we know them from early computing, were borrowed as a concept from the weaving industry? STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's at least what I've read. I can see now how complex weaving tapestries and patterns set the stage for more complex computations. And I don't know if I'm going to keep going down this weaving journey. I liked the intro class because it was very chill, and I got to use my hands. And I had a little bit of fun making, I don't know, like ten by 12-inch little tapestry. But yeah, I've definitely seen other more advanced weavers make really beautiful textiles and fiber arts. And it's really cool to see the application of that detail-oriented skill in different formats. JOËL: Are you going to try to make your own punch cards? STEPHANIE: That's an interesting evolution of this skill [laughs] for sure. I think what I really did like was the hands-on approach. And so the punch cards did make this process automated. But I personally enjoyed the switching of the threads and pulling them through and doing it with my hands instead of something that's kind of turned into automated machine work. Does that inspire you in some way? JOËL: I think sometimes it's interesting, right? As software people, we sort of have the two urges. We work in so much automation. When we see a process, we would love to try to automate it ourselves, even if it's been done before. So, oh, could I build a small, automatic mechanical loom using punch cards? That sounds like a fun automation challenge. At the same time, so much of my daily job is automation that sometimes it's nice to kind of remove automation entirely from the picture and, like you said, just work with your hands. STEPHANIE: That's a really interesting way to think about it. I do believe that people have different reactions to it, like you said, where they're like, "Wow, I can use my skills to do this really cool thing." On the other hand, you might also respond with, "Wow, I've done this automation code-writing work for eight hours. So now I really want to do something completely different." And I think that's the camp that I was in, at least when I first signed up for this class, just having space, like three hours a week, to sit and not look at a computer and deal with the physical realm. JOËL: So here's the other route that I think a lot of software people take, and that is, here's a fun mechanical process that can be automated. What if we simulated it virtually? So what if I create a program where you can sort of create your own punch card, like, decide where you want to punch the holes? And maybe these are just radio buttons or something or checkboxes in a grid on a webpage. And then, the program will output an SVG that is the thing that would have been woven if you'd used it in that pattern. And so now you can kind of play around with, like, huh, what if I punch here? What if I unpunch here? And you get all these patterns out, and you could just get to try it around. STEPHANIE: That's fascinating. I can't believe your brain went there. [laughter] But yeah, the idea that it's not actually about the pattern itself but the holes that you make, that part being the creative process and then what comes out of it then being a bit of a surprise or just something organic that's a really interesting take too. JOËL: Something that I find is really fun about software and things created from software is this sort of really short feedback loop in terms of trial and error. So if you were actually having a weaving machine and you made a physical punch card, and then you try something, and you realize it's not quite right, the machine weaved something you didn't quite like, now you've got to set it up again. You probably have to start from scratch with a new punch card because you can't really unpunch holes unless maybe you can put tape over it or something. That trial-and-error feedback loop is much shorter. Whereas with a program, you just pause the simulation, punch-unpunch some holes, restart, and then you just kind of keep trying. And there's something fun about that creative exploration when you've got that really tight feedback loop. STEPHANIE: That's fair. I think perhaps that actually might be why doing it manually, and by it, I mean weaving, gives you a little bit more room to [laughs] debug if you will, because you can see when something goes wrong. And this actually happened to me in class earlier this week where I didn't thread the fiber over instead of under. And I was like, oh, this doesn't look right. Like, that's not the look I'm going for. And then I could kind of quickly see, oh, I missed a thread over here and unravel and do it again. Whereas what you just described, if the punch card is wrong and then you create this big piece of fabric, at that point, I'm not really sure what happens then. If someone out there is a weaving expert and knows the answer; I would be very curious to know. JOËL: Now I kind of wish we'd had this conversation last month because, in early January, there was a game jam event that happened. It's a yearly or biyearly Historically Accurate Game Jam, and they select a theme, and then everybody has to submit a game, or a simulation, or something, an interactive program that fits with the theme. And this year's theme was the Industrial Revolution. And I feel like simulating an old automated loom with punch cards would be the perfect fit for something that's small enough that I could build it in a week without spending 10 hours a day working on it. It fits within the theme, and it's still kind of fun. STEPHANIE: Wow, that would have been a really great idea. If there was an award for best fitting the theme, I think that would have won because then you're also tackling the history of computing. I was talking about earlier the loom obviously being...or the automated loom also really playing a big role in the Industrial Revolution. And, I don't know, maybe this is our future club, Joël, and we're going to get into video game development. [laughs] What's new in your world, Joël? JOËL: There are two things. One is that today former Bike Shed host, Stephanie Viccari, shared a video with me from Ian Anderson. This was made last December to the tune of All I Want For Christmas Is You. But it's all about the, at that time, upcoming Ruby 3.2 release. It is amazing. The lyrics talk about the different features that are upcoming. It rhymes. It's set to meter. I am just blown away by this. And I'm just really hyped [laughs] about this video. STEPHANIE: You sent it to me and I gave it a watch before we sat down to record, and I also loved this video. It was so fun. And I think Ruby has a bit of a tradition of releasing new versions around Christmas time. So if this became a tradition, that would be very fun, and maybe instead of singing Christmas carols, we'll be singing new Ruby version carols around the holidays. JOËL: I feel like if Ian wants to do another one next Christmas, now that you have the precedent, it'd be a great space to try something to the tune of Last Christmas because now you can reference back last year's song. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I might as well just go all in and create a whole Christmas album of Ruby anticipation carols. [laughter] JOËL: Yeah, really excited about that. Kudos to Ian. And for all of our listeners, we'll link the video on the show notes of the podcast. Go and check it out; it is worth the two and a half-minutes of your life. STEPHANIE: Agreed. JOËL: The other cool thing, for the past few episodes, we've been talking a lot about hexagons and how they show up in nature, and bees, and how they build their honeycombs and whether that is sort of by design or sort of just happens by nature through sort of external forces. And so this week, I went out to the store, and I bought some real honeycomb. And I'm going to try it on air. STEPHANIE: [laughs] Oh my gosh, I didn't realize that's what was happening. [laughter] Okay, I'm ready. JOËL: All right, I'm going to take a slice. STEPHANIE: Wow. For research. JOËL: For science. STEPHANIE: Wow, that is a big bite. [laughs] JOËL: Hmmm, it's basically crunchy honey. STEPHANIE: So I've enjoyed honeycomb in that raw form on ice cream. I really like it on there and oatmeal and stuff like that. I think it's a little bit waxy. Like, once you get to chewing the bits at the end, that part is a bit of a less pleasant mouth-feel [laughs] in my opinion. What are you experiencing right now? JOËL: Yeah, so like you're saying, the honey kind of dissolves away in your mouth. You had this really fun mix of textures. But then, in the end, you do end up with a ball of [laughter] beeswax in your mouth. STEPHANIE: Oh no. JOËL: Which I understand is completely safe to eat, so... STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's true. JOËL: I'm just going to eat the whole thing. STEPHANIE: I think it's kind of like swallowing gum. [laughs] JOËL: Which apparently does not last for seven years in your digestive system; that's a myth. STEPHANIE: Wow, debunking myths, trying honeycomb. You're welcome, to all The Bike Shed listeners out there. Investigating the important things. JOËL: What is interesting is that we're talking about the structural power of hexagons. I can cut a pretty thin slice of the comb, and it doesn't fall apart. It still has a lot of strength to it, which is nice because it means that the honey doesn't just go splashing everywhere. I can cut up a fairly thin slice, pick it up, it still holds the honey, put it in my mouth, and it doesn't make a mess. STEPHANIE: The bees know what they're doing. [laughs] Cool. Would you eat raw honeycomb again? JOËL: Well, I got a whole block, and I had one tiny slice. So, yes, I will be eating the rest of this. STEPHANIE: [laughs] JOËL: I don't think this will be a regular thing in my weekly groceries. But I would bring this out again for a special occasion. Or I can see this fitting nicely, like you said, on maybe certain breakfasts, even on a charcuterie board or something. STEPHANIE: Oh yeah, that's a really good use for it. JOËL: In some ways, it's nice because it's a way to have honey without having to have it on something else or having to eat it with a spoon. It's honey that comes with its own carrying vessel. STEPHANIE: That's great. Yeah, like a bread bowl for soup. [laughs] JOËL: Exactly. Bees make their own bread bowls for honey. STEPHANIE: [laughs] MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers that can actually help cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? It has all of the information that web developers need to monitor their application - including error management, performance insights, and deploy tracking! 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You literally have nothing to lose. Head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! JOËL: So, for the last couple of weeks, we've been joking that this is turning into the Stephanie and Joël book club because we've been talking about a lot of articles and books. Today, I'd like to shift a little bit away from literature and lean into art. Writing code is a technical work, but in many ways, it's also an aesthetic work. It's a work of art. How do you feel about the idea of expressing yourself creatively through your code? STEPHANIE: So this is interesting to me because it's actually quite different from what we've been talking about in recent episodes around the idea of writing sustainable code, code for other people to read. Because if you are writing code purely for creative expression and just for yourself, that will look very different than what I think folks have kind of called boring technology, which is choosing the patterns, the tools, the frameworks that are tried and true, and just kind of sticking to the things that people have solved before. And so, in some ways, I don't know if I really get to express myself creatively in the code that I write, which I think is okay for me because I don't really consider myself someone who needs a creative outlet in my work. What about you? What thoughts do you have about this? JOËL: I think it's interesting the way you described it. I'm almost wondering if I'm making maybe a comparison to physical architecture; maybe you almost have a sort of brutalist perspective on the things you construct. STEPHANIE: [laughs] JOËL: So they're functional. They're minimal. They are not always the prettiest to look at, but they're solid. Does that metaphor sound about right to you? STEPHANIE: I feel like I have to make a pun about SOLID, the design patterns, and code. JOËL: Ooh. STEPHANIE: [laughs] But I think I like brutalist, I mean, the term itself. I don't know if I necessarily identify with it in terms of my work and output. But the idea that the code that I do is functional is, I think, particularly important to me as a developer. And I don't just mean, like, oh, the code works, so it's done, but functional for whatever need I'm solving and also for the people who are working with this code again in the future. I mentioned boring technology. There's a talk that I'm kind of referencing by Dan McKinley, and you can check out his slides at boringtechnology.club. And he talks about this idea of decision-making and how that relates to writing boring or creative code. And he also references Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And so, ideally, if you're working in an existing codebase, all the low-level decisions have been made for you. And then you can kind of traverse the hierarchy and focus your creativity on the high-level problems that you're trying to solve. So maybe you're not necessarily expressing your creativity in the syntax or whatever pattern you're using, again, because a lot of those things have been solved. But where the creativity comes from is the particular domain or business problem you have and the real-world constraints that you're faced with. And how do you figure out what to do given those constraints? JOËL: I think that lines up a lot with my own experience as well. I think as a newer developer, syntax is sort of the thing that's top of mind. And so, maybe trying to get clever with syntax is something that I would focus on more. Sometimes that's trying to get code really short and terse. Sometimes it's because I want to try. Can I do this thing with a particular piece of syntax, or even just does it look pretty? I think now, in my code, I am actually kind of boring with my syntax. I, probably when I write Ruby, mostly use a kind of slimmed-down set of syntax and don't use the full expressive power of the language for most of my day-to-day needs. So basic things with objects, and methods, and blocks, sort of the basic building blocks that we get from Ruby regular conditionals, if...else, and a few other nice things that the language gives us. But, in many ways, it almost feels like...I don't know if you've ever seen the simplified English Wikipedia. STEPHANIE: No, I haven't. What is that? JOËL: They're treating it, I think, like a separate language, but it is a version of Wikipedia in English with a more restricted vocabulary to try to make the content more accessible to those that might struggle with more standard English. So it's a sort of smaller subset of English. And, in many ways, I feel like a lot of the day-to-day Ruby code that I write is simplified, Ruby. STEPHANIE: Wow, that's really interesting. I think this also goes back to the specialized vocabulary episode we talked about. And is there value in keeping things accessible, and straightforward, and boring but at the cost of being able to express yourself with everything you have available to you? This is a bit of a tangent, I guess, but I grew up speaking Chinese with my parents, but since then, I have really lost a lot of that vocabulary. And, in some ways, I really struggle with communicating in Chinese because I feel like I'm not able to express myself exactly the way I want to in the way that I can in English. And when I'm talking to my parents, yeah, that's been a bit of a challenge for me because I do really value being able to say things the way that I mean, and I'm not able to have that with my limited vocabulary. So I can also see how people might not enjoy working within these confines of boring syntax and boring frameworks. JOËL: Sometimes it's nice to give yourself a sort of syntactical restriction, but they're very low-level when it comes to most of what we do for programming. And I think that's sort of what I've learned as my career has evolved is that programming is so much more than just learning syntax. So kind of like with art, maybe it's nice to restrict yourself to say, oh, can I do something with only a particular brushstroke technique, or restricting myself to a particular palette or a particular medium? And that can foster a lot of creativity. So, similarly, I think you could do some things like playing Code Golf, not on production code; please don't. STEPHANIE: [laughs] JOËL: But as an experiment in a side project or just almost as a piece of art, that can be a really interesting problem to solve and give you a deeper understanding of the language. And I'm sure there are plenty of other syntactical limitations you could put on yourself or maybe fancy things you would like to explore and say, "Well, this is over the top. We don't need to structure it in this way or use this syntax. But I want to sort of push the boundaries of what can be done with it. Let's see where I can take it." STEPHANIE: That's really fair. And I think it relates back to what I was saying earlier about perhaps creativity when writing software products comes from the constraints of the business of, in some ways, physical aspects of development. In the Dan McKinley talk, I mentioned about choosing boring technology. He generally recommends against bringing in a new language or framework because of the costs, the carrying cost of doing that, and the long-term maintenance to consider. But he instead suggests turning the question on its head and being like, how can we solve this problem with the current technology that we do have? And I think that relates to what you were saying about being able to push the boundaries of a particular medium or tool and in a way that you might not have considered before. JOËL: Exactly. And I think going back to the analogy with art; sometimes it is nice to restrict yourself to a particular brushstroke or something like that to try to foster creativity. But oftentimes, you want to explore creativity in much higher-level ways. So maybe you're not restricting things like brushstrokes and color, and, instead, you want to explore lighting. You want to explore maybe certain ways of mixing colors. There are all sorts of, I think, higher-level ways that you can be creative in art that's not just the mechanics of how you apply pigment to canvas. And we see the same thing like you were saying, in code where there's a lot of higher level business problems. Generally, how do we want to structure large chunks of the code? How do we want to build abstractions? Although that can also be a dangerous place to get too creative in. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. Do you consider yourself a creative person or need a creative outlet? And how does writing code or software development play a role in that for you? JOËL: I would say, yes, I consider myself a creative person. And I would consider coding, in general, to be a creative endeavor. I sometimes describe to people that writing code is like building something out of infinite legos. You're constrained only by the power of your imagination and the amount of time you're willing to put into constructing the thing that you're building. Of course, then you have all sorts of business constraints. And there are things you want to do on a work project that are probably not the same as what you would want to do on a client project or on a personal project. But there's still creativity, I think, at every level and sometimes even outside of the code itself. Just understanding and breaking down the business problem can require a ton of creativity before you even write a single line of code in your editor. I was reading a Twitter thread the other day by @GeePawHill that sort of proposes that there are sort of four steps in evolution of kind of the mindset that programmers go through over their career. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this evolution if you kind of agree with it or disagree with it if that maybe lines up with some of your experience. So this Twitter thread proposes four levels of thinking that we go through. I think we can kind of jump between these levels at various points in our work. So we might do all of these in a day, but to a certain extent, they also follow a little bit of a progression in our career. So the first level is thinking in terms of syntax; that's just knowing the characters to type in the editor. The second level is thinking in terms of code, that's, thinking a little bit more semantically. So now, instead of thinking, oh, do I need if then curly brace, then closed curly brace? Now we're thinking more in terms of, okay, I need a branch in the flow of control for my logic here. And at that level, maybe you don't even need to think about the syntax quite so much because you're so comfortable with. It kind of just fades away. Building beyond that, now you're thinking in terms of your paradigm. So Ruby is an object-oriented language, so you might be thinking in terms of what objects do I need to represent this problem and how do they need to talk to each other? And the sort of underlying semantics of, oh, do I need a conditional here or not? Those might start fading away because now you're thinking at a slightly higher level. And then, finally, thinking in terms of change sets. Now you're thinking less in terms of the language itself and more in terms of the business problems and how the current behavior of the software is different and needs to change to get to where we want the behavior to be. STEPHANIE: I think I disagree a little bit with the idea that it's a progression. And I'm thinking about how when you have a beginner's mind, anything is possible. And in some ways, if you are new to coding, before you have that understanding of what is and isn't possible, anything is possible. And so, in some ways, I've worked with people who are super new to coding, and the ideas that they come up with for how to make a change at that highest level that you were just describing, in some ways, make sense. You can be like, oh yeah, that actually is something we can do and an idea that you might eventually get to from someone more experienced, having followed those different levels of progression and reaching a place where you're like, I know exactly what tools or the details about how to do this. But when you have that beginner's mind, and you don't have the details of the how, I think you can still think about those problems at a higher level, and that is valuable, and maybe they'll need help implementing along the way. And I think that that could be a really interesting area of collaboration that perhaps we don't do enough in this industry because it's very mentorship-focused where it's like, okay, I have more experience, and so I'm going to teach you what I know. Whereas if you bring someone with a totally fresh perspective along, what ideas can you generate from there? JOËL: I think we definitely exist in all of these layers every day as developers. I think, looking back at myself as a newer developer, I tended to maybe work bottom-up when I tried to solve a problem. And I think that now I probably tend to work sort of in the reverse order, start by thinking in terms of changes and then work my way down. And so syntax, at that point, is the last thing that I'm thinking about. It's really an implementation detail. Whereas I think as a new coder, syntax was super important. Was your experience similar to that, or did you have a very different journey? STEPHANIE: It's funny that you mentioned it because I think when I was new to development, there were so many syntactic things that I didn't understand that I just kind of like blurted out of my brain when I was reading code and was then trying to latch on to the important pieces of information that I needed to know, which often meant class names or method names. Pieces that I could grab onto and be like, okay, I'm seeing that this method then calls this other method or whatever. And, yeah, what you were saying about implementation details falling away, I kind of did that at the beginning of my career a little bit, at least at that syntactic level. So, yeah, I think I'm with you where we all exist at different parts of this framework, I suppose. And that journey could look different for everyone. JOËL: So we're talking about ways to be creative at higher levels. And one way that I find has been really fun for me but also really useful has been bringing in dependency graphs as a tool for design. You knew I had to mention dependency graphs. STEPHANIE: We got there in the end. [laughter] Cool, go on. JOËL: I think it's been really good sometimes in terms of modeling change sets because dependency graphs can be a great tool for that, but also sometimes in terms of trying to understand what the underlying business problem is and how it might translate into code structures where things might be tightly coupled versus not. And so, drawing it out visually is a really powerful design tool. And because now I can look at it in two-dimensional space, I can realize, oh, I see something that feels like it's maybe an anti-pattern or might be a problem here. There's a cycle in my graph; maybe we should find a way to break that. Maybe we need to introduce some dependency inversion and break that cycle, and now our graph is acyclic. And so I think that's where there can be a lot of creativity that happens, even when you're not writing code at that point. You're just sort of talking about how different pieces of the project or even different subproblems...you're not even talking about if they're implemented in code, but just saying this subproblem is related to this subproblem, and maybe I would like to find a way for them to not have a connection to each other. STEPHANIE: I'm glad we got back to this dependency graph topic because I stumbled upon something that I'm curious to hear your opinion on. I have been following Julia Evans' work for a little bit now. And she recently released a new zine about debugging. And at the end of the zine, she includes a link to these choose-your-own adventure puzzles that she has created, specifically to teach you about debugging and how to do it. And so it's basically a little detective game, and you kind of follow along with this bug. And she gives you some different options about how would you like to find a little bit more information about this bug? And what approach would you take? And you make some different selections, and then as you go, you get more information about the bug. And that helps inform what next steps you might take. And, one, I think this is a great example of a creative project about software development, even though it's not necessarily your day-to-day work. But then she also uses a tool called Twine, which is for creating non-linear stories, or puzzles, or games. And it got me really thinking about the multi-step wizard we've been talking about and this idea of looking at a problem in different mediums. It also reminds me of if you have a designer on your team and they're doing prototyping, they usually have some kind of user interactivity that they have to codify. And they are making those decisions about okay, like, if you are at this step, then where do you go next? And those are all things that you've talked about doing as a developer, I think, at a later point in the future lifecycle. And I'm now just kind of thinking about how to integrate some of that into our workflow. Do you have any thoughts about that? JOËL: I had one of the coolest experiences in my career when I was doing a front-end project where we were building a typeahead component that was pulling data from a remote server and then populating a drop-down. And the designer and I sat down and just started to look through all the different states that you could be and how you could move from one to another. So it looked like maybe you start the typeahead is empty; it's just a text box. And then as you start typing, maybe there's a spinner that shows up. And then maybe you have some results, or maybe you don't have results. And those are two different entirely states that you could be in. And then, if you backspace, what happens? And what if something goes wrong on the server? Like, we just kept finding all these edge cases. And we built out a diagram of all the possible journeys that someone could take, starting from that empty text box, all the way to either some sort of error state or a final state where you've selected an item. But, of course, these are not necessarily terminal because in an error state, maybe you can just start typing again, and you sort of jump back into the beginning of the flow. So we did this whole diagram that ended up looking very much like a finite-state machine. We didn't use the term, but that's kind of what it ended up being. And I think we both learned a lot about the problem we were trying to solve and the user experience we were trying to create through that. There was just a lot of back and forth of, like, oh, did you think about what would happen if we get no results here? Have we thought about that state? Or it's like, okay, so now we're in an error state. What do we do? Is there a way to get out of it, or are we just kind of stuck? Oh, you can backspace. Okay, what happens then? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about creativity as a solitary process. But I think that that goes to show that when collaborating with other people, too, that process can also be very fun and creative and fulfill that need outside of the way the code is written. JOËL: In many ways, I think working with somebody else, and that gets made at the intersection of two or more people's work, is probably the most creative way to build software. STEPHANIE: That actually reminds me of a book I read last year called "Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow." And it's about these two friends and their journey creating video games together. And it kind of follows several decades of their life and their relationship, and their creative and collaborative process. And I really loved that book. It was very good, especially if you like video games. There are a lot of great references to that too. But I think what you were saying about that fulfillment that you can get with working with other people, and that book does a really good job examining that and getting into our need as humans for that type of collaboration. So that's my little book rec. It goes back to our conversation about designing a game. Again, maybe this is [laughs] what we'll do next. Who knows? The world's our oyster. On that note, shall we wrap up? JOËL: Let's wrap up. STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thank you so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

Joël has been thinking a lot recently about array indexing. Stephanie started volunteering at the Chicago Tooele Library, a non-profit community lending library for Chicagoans to borrow tools and equipment for DIY home projects! It's the end of the year and often a time of reflection: looking back on the year and thinking about the next. Stephanie and Joël ponder if open source is a critical way to advance careers as software developers. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Chicago Tool Library (https://www.chicagotoollibrary.org/our-organization) Circulate and Ruby For Good (https://github.com/rubyforgood/circulate) Glue Work (https://noidea.dog/glue) Being the DRI of your career (https://cate.blog/2021/09/20/being-the-dri-of-your-career/) The Manager's Path (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/the-managers-path/9781491973882/) Kingship (https://acoup.blog/2022/10/07/collections-teaching-paradox-crusader-kings-iii-part-iii-constructivisting-a-kingdom/) What technologies should I learn? (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/what-technologies-should-i-learn) Learning by Helping (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/learning-by-helping) "Comb-shaped" Careers (https://killalldefects.com/2020/02/22/specializing-vs-generalizing-careers/) Transcript: STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. JOËL: And I'm Joël Quenneville. And together, we are here to share a little bit of what we've learned along the way. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I've been thinking a lot recently about array indexing. I feel like this is one of the areas where you commonly get confused as a new programmer because most languages start array indexing at zero. And what we really have here are two counting systems, either an offset so how many spaces from the beginning of the array, or a counting system where you count 1,2,3,4. At first, it feels like why would computers ever go with the offset approach? It's so illogical. Counting 1,2,3,4 would feel natural. But then, the more I think about it, the more I've started seeing the zero-based pattern show up in everyday life. One example, because I enjoy reading history, is how we talk about centuries. You might talk about the 19th century is the Victorian age, roughly. But you might also refer to the 19th century as the 1800s. So we've kind of got these two names that are a little bit off by one. And that's because when you're counting the centuries, you count first century, second century, third century, fourth century, and so on. But when we actually go by the first two digits, you start with the zeros, then the 100s, then the 200s, 300s, and so on. And so we have a zero-based counting system and a one-based counting system, and we sort of have learned to navigate both simultaneously. So that was really interesting to me to make a connection between history and programming and the fact that sometimes we count from zero, and sometimes we count from one. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I will have to admit that I always get confused when we're talking about centuries and making the mental connection that 19th century is the 1800s. It always takes me a bit of an extra second to make sure I know what I'm hearing, and I'm attributing it to the right year. I think another example where I get a bit tripped up is the numbering of floors because, in the U.S., we are counting floors using the one-based counting system, whereas I think in Europe and places outside of North America, to my knowledge, the first floor will be considered the ground floor, and then the second floor will be the first floor and onward. So that is a zero-based counting system that I can recall. JOËL: I never noticed there was a pattern. I just thought every building was arbitrary in where it counted from. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I do think it's a cultural thing. I would be really curious to know more about the history of how those counting systems get adopted. JOËL: So that's a fun thing that I've been exploring recently. What's new in your world, Stephanie? STEPHANIE: I am really excited to talk about a new real-life update. I started volunteering at the Chicago Tooele Library, which is a non-profit community lending library in my city for Chicagoans to borrow tools and equipment for DIY home projects. What I really like about it is they use a pay-what-you-can model so everyone can have access to these resources. It reduces the need for people to buy new things all the time, especially for little one-off projects. And they also provide education to empower folks to learn how to do things themselves, which I thought was really cool. And another thing that I think might be a little relevant to this audience is that I actually first encountered the Tooele library through its open-source software, which is a Ruby for Good project called Circulate. So the Tooele Library had previously been using this software that was built by community members to do all of their lending. And I got to see it in action when I saw a librarian use it to rent out tools to community members. And then I also interfaced with it myself as a member of the Tooele Library. I've borrowed things like saws, cooking appliances like air fryers that they also had. And when I was first a guest on this show, I borrowed a microphone from them to do this podcast because I was just a guest at the time and didn't want to commit to buying a whole new microphone, so that was a really awesome way that I got to benefit from it. JOËL: It's a fantastic resource for the community. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I love it so much. If anyone is in Chicago and wants to check it out, I highly recommend it. And even if you're not in Chicago, if the idea of a lending library interests you, you can check out the software on Ruby for Good. And it's no longer being used by the Chicago Tooele Library, but it would be really cool to see it be picked up by other people who might want to start something similar in their own hometowns. JOËL: So you mentioned you're volunteering here. So this means you're going in person and helping people check out items from the library. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I did my first volunteer librarian shift about a month ago, and right now, they're in the middle of moving from one location to another, so they've had a lot of in-person workdays to get some of that done. But even before that, I had contributed a little bit to the open-source repo, which is just a pretty standard Rails project, so I felt super comfortable with getting my feet wet in it. And it was, I think, my first open-source contribution. I find that some of the other open-source software, especially developer tooling, is a little scary to get into. So this was a really accessible way for me to contribute to that community, just leveraging the skills that I have for my day-to-day work. JOËL: Would you recommend this project for our listeners who are looking to maybe get their own first contribution in open source? STEPHANIE: The Circulate project is actually on a bit of a hiatus right now. But I would definitely suggest people fork it and play around with it if they want to. I also know that Ruby for Good has a bunch of other projects that are Rails apps and have real users and are having an impact that way. So if anyone wants to get into open source in a way that feels accessible and they're building a product that people are using, I definitely recommend checking that out. MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers that can actually help cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? It has all of the information that web developers need to monitor their application - including error management, performance insights, and deploy tracking! 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You literally have nothing to lose. Head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! JOËL: So, as we're recording this, it's the end of the year. It's often a time of reflection and looking back on the year and maybe even thinking about the next year and progression. I'm curious since you said this was your introduction to the world of open source, do you think that working on open source is a critical way to advance our careers as software developers? STEPHANIE: That's a good question. Honestly, I think my answer would be, no, it's not critical. I think it's one avenue for people to explore and increase their impact on the community and increase their technical knowledge, especially if it's in an area that they are not quite working in in their day-to-day, but they're really interested in diving deeper in. But I do think there's sometimes a lot of pressure to feel like open source is this shining beacon of opportunity for you to dive into and that it'll bring a lot of meaning to the work that you do. And people, obviously, and for a good reason, talk about how special it is that open source is part of the industry that we work in, but I don't necessarily think it's critical. I do certainly feel inspired by people who create open-source tools or contribute to Ruby or Rails. But I don't necessarily think that it's something that should be a rule and that everyone needs to get into it or contribute to it. Because there are many ways that people can have an impact having influence on the community, and that way is one. But there's also a lot of value, even just focusing on the team that you're on and your company internally. JOËL: I appreciate the nuance there because I think like you said, we often view open source as the main thing that everyone should be doing to get ahead. And there are a lot of different ways to improve your skill and then to get ahead in your career, which are not always correlated. One kind of really basic way that I was shocked at how much it helped me was I was learning a new language, Elm. I joined their online Slack community and just hung out in the chat room and answered the most beginner questions because I barely knew the language at the time. And most of these could be found just by looking up the documentation or by opening up a REPL and experimenting with a thing and giving an answer, which are skills that, as a programmer who's got some experience, I take for granted but that not everyone has that as a reflex. Because Googling, searching documentation, crafting experiments in the REPL those are all skills that you have to learn to build over time. But answering those very basic questions over and over over the course of a few months actually taught me so much about the language, and I'm not doing anything fancy. STEPHANIE: That's awesome. I have a friend who, during a time when I think she was struggling with her confidence in her technical skill and was feeling a bit stuck at work, spent an afternoon answering Stack Overflow questions on basic Ruby and Rails, and that gave her a lot of joy. Because she recognized that she was the person Googling those questions and needing to find answers many years ago, and that was one way that she could pay it forward. And I think she had a lot of empathy, like I said, for those people who are needing a little help, and it felt really good for her to be able to provide it. JOËL: It's a way to have an impact on other people while also solidifying your own knowledge. STEPHANIE: Yeah, exactly. JOËL: So we've mentioned a couple of different ways where you can level up your skills, that might be through helping out other people online, that could be through open source. But I'd like to zoom out a little bit and look at not just improving your technical skills but thinking about career in general when you're looking out over the next 10, 20, 30 years. Do you have an approach that you like to take when you're thinking that broadly? STEPHANIE: For me, I have had trouble thinking about a five or 10-year plan because things often don't turn out the way that I envisioned them. And so I think I've come to realize that leaning into how I feel about things in any given moment is more valuable and oftentimes more accurate to what I really want. Because I can have an idea of what I want my career to look like, but the things that ring most true are what I'm feeling in the moment. And so you mentioned we're releasing this episode at the end of the year. I do tend to do a little bit of recap about how my year went if I spent it doing things that fulfilled me and made me feel good, if I grew in the ways that I wanted, even separate from any performance review. I know that this is a time of reflection for a lot of people. And I don't personally ascribe to New Year's resolutions, but I do like to think about themes or intentions. And those are things that ground me rather than setting particular goals that I may or may not achieve; I may realize I want to change. So yeah, I really recommend just sitting with yourself and spending time thinking about what you want, and that could mean a promotion, but that could also mean a more interesting project using new technology. It could mean more responsibility and decision-making power. It could mean a move into management. I think it's different for everyone. And so when people have asked me about advice or what they should do in terms of coming to a crossroads between jobs or between projects, I think that you really can't tell anyone else what is the right move for them; only they can decide. JOËL: And tech, it's such a broad field. There are so many different roles and paths you can take through it. Well, there's junior engineer, engineer one, engineer two, engineer three, that's just the same everywhere. And there's only one way forward; it's up or stagnation, and that's it. Like you really get to choose your own adventure in this industry, and that's exciting and maybe a little bit terrifying. STEPHANIE: Oh yeah, for sure. I like that you brought up the different levels and roles that you could have because I have found companies that provide a career ladder or engineering ladder that has been useful for me in the past in figuring out if the next step at the company that I'm at is what I want. And it's helpful. It's very clear to me, okay, these are the skills that I need to get promoted into this next level. But other times, that description describes something that I'm not interested in, and that is also really helpful information. JOËL: Was there ever a moment in your own career where you had to navigate some of these decisions to decide what path you wanted to take as opposed to just following a ladder up? STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. I was presented opportunities to start getting a feel for management or overseeing a team as a lead. And people had really great feedback for me that that was something that I had shown leadership in, and they thought I would do a great job in that role. But I actually decided to kind of hit the brakes a little bit on that particular route because what I realized I wanted at the time was to focus more on being an IC and deepening my technical knowledge. And that was really tough. I do also think that a lot of women are pushed into management because they end up doing a lot of the glue work that comes with unblocking people, supporting people, and project management and those are all skills that, like, quote, unquote, "lend themselves towards management." But just because we do that work doesn't necessarily mean that that's the direction that we want our careers to go in. And so that was a really tough thing that I had to do was to make it really clear that I wasn't quite ready for that yet. And I might be in the future, but in that moment, just standing my ground and being like, actually, I want to focus elsewhere instead. JOËL: That's really valuable, knowing yourself and knowing where you want to go, what the next step is. Are there any exercises you like to do to try to figure that out for yourself? Because I know something that I've struggled with sometimes is not being quite sure what I want. STEPHANIE: I journal a lot in my personal life and also about work. I think I tend to revisit that in my notes, especially about things I've learned or things that I felt excited about in terms of projects and what I've been unlearning, and just going through all of the things that I've collected over the year and synthesizing that information. I also really like to lean on my friends and peers. So I really enjoy a good one-on-one when we just talk about those types of things, you know, dreams, hopes, goals. I like to lean on my manager a lot, too, because oftentimes, they're able to see things about my work over the past year that maybe I was just too in the weeds to be able to have that higher level perspective about. As a third-party observer, they see a lot of things that you might not be able to, either on your current project or even opportunities for you to step into at a higher level in the company. So yeah, I think that, in some ways, it's a solitary activity, but it doesn't always have to be. JOËL: I remember having a really good conversation with my manager as well, at some point, talking about that decision of am I interested in maybe moving into the management track? Do I want to stay on the IC side of things? And that was a really good conversation to have. STEPHANIE: So after having those conversations and kind of figuring out what direction you wanted to go, were there times when you had to actively make that choice or advocate for yourself? JOËL: Yes. One of the things that I realized that I care about is investing in other people, and sort of the mentoring, supporting side of things which you might think is kind of a management activity. But management is a little bit different than that. I prefer the coaching aspect than the management aspect. And so what I wanted to do at some point once, I realized that that's what I wanted and that a management position would not fulfill that desire, I started looking to see is there a way to craft that role within the company? A common thing that happens, I think, in workplaces is that you are given roles or titles for things that you already do. Clearly, if there's something that I care about, I needed to be doing it already in my day-to-day work, and I needed to be doing it at a fairly high level. And so I focused efforts there, trying to say I want to get better at this. I want to do this in the opportunities that I do have in my current role. And then eventually, I did go to my manager and said, "Look, this is what I am looking for in the next step." Had a discussion about whether or not management could be a fit or if we could customize a management role for this, and eventually decided that an IC role would be a better fit for that. And among other things, we introduce at thoughtbot the role of principal developer, which is kind of the next step on our career ladder. It can be a little bit different emphasis for different people on the team who have that role, but, for me, a big part of that was putting more impact on the broader team as its focus. STEPHANIE: That's really cool. I really appreciate that you were able to come to the table with what you wanted and able to have a discussion about, okay, so management might not be the right fit. But how can we create this new role that not only benefited you but also benefited the rest of the company because that hadn't been an area that they had quite figured out yet. But by doing that, you essentially did exactly the kind of coaching and making an impact [chuckles] that you had also shared you had been wanting because you just opened this new door for others to also eventually work towards. And I think that's really awesome. That reminds me a lot of the idea of being directly responsible for yourself and your career. There's a really good blog post by a woman named Cate, who is an engineering director at DuckDuckGo. I'll link it to the show notes. But she writes a lot about how you have to own your own career and find opportunities to have that agency. And you can always ask. Like, you might not get everything that you want, but by asking and by bringing it up, you at least can start the conversation rather than expecting or just hoping that things will turn out the way that you want without having said anything. A couple of things that she says in the article that I also really like is the idea of expecting less from your job and more from your career. JOËL: Hmmm. STEPHANIE: At any given point, your job might not check all of the boxes, but maybe they check some, and that is worthwhile. And once you get to a point where maybe the job is not really doing anything towards the direction you want your overall career to go, that might be time to reevaluate. And then she also mentions learning from feedback and asking for feedback, and making sure that beyond the things that you're able to identify, learning from others areas that you can work on to have a better impact on your team is also really important in progressing your career quickly. JOËL: So how is this mindset of owning your career path maybe different than the default that a lot of people might assume in our industry? It sounds like it's a much more proactive approach. We talked already about doing the work to figure out what you want out of a career, what you care about, as opposed to just being told what you should care about by others. Are there other aspects that you have to sort of own as part of owning that career? STEPHANIE: I mean, I think it's just vital to having a work experience that is fulfilling and brings you joy and doesn't bog you down. I know we all have to work, but we also all have the capacity to exercise our agency there. I know we did talk a little about management earlier, and I wanted to also plug a book, "The Manager's Path" by Camille Fournier, which is about management. But she has a really excellent first chapter about how to be managed and what you can expect from having to be an employee with a manager but also what power you have in that dynamic. She says that while you can be given opportunities and have areas of growth pointed out to you, your manager can't read your mind, and they can't tell you what will make you happy. And so I have seen a lot of people spend time worrying about if they're doing the right things to get to the next level. But oftentimes, we just haven't really talked enough about how that next level is really totally different. And there are so many routes that that could take, whether that is becoming an open-source maintainer, or producing content like blog posts or podcasts even, or speaking at conferences, or management. Once I realized that there were so many different opportunities available to me, I did feel a bit liberated because it does seem like, oh, you're just supposed to level up your technical skills until you've become this superstar coder. But that's not what everyone wants, and I think that's okay. JOËL: And, like you said, there are so many different areas where you might choose to focus or invest time into, and you don't have to do them all. You don't have to be the super prolific open-source person, and also keynoting at conferences, and also publishing the book, and also, you know, whatever you want to add in there. So once you know your goals, how do you make those goals a reality? We've been talking a lot about know yourself and have some goals. But at some point, you have to translate those goals into actions that will take you one step at a time towards those goals, and sometimes that translation step is hard. STEPHANIE: It is hard. I think this is another place where I would work with my manager on, especially if I'm on a project where I'm not quite seeing those opportunities. Like I said, usually having another perspective or another set of eyes on what you're working on can make it clear, like, specific and concrete aspects that you can spend your energy on. So if it's wanting to get better at testing, it's like, okay, what does the current test suite look like, and what are some opportunities that you can provide new value to the test suite to make an impact on the team? Or what are some refactoring opportunities you can make if you are wanting to have more of that experience outside of the regular ticketed feature work that you have to do? JOËL: I think it's interesting that you mentioned impact on the team because not only do you want to level up some skills, but if nobody knows about it, your odds of getting that promotion or getting recognized for it are very low. So not only do you have to get good at technical systems, you have to get good at social systems as well. I was recently reading an article about the role of kingship in medieval Europe and how it's very much a role that needs to play out in public in order to build legitimacy so that people will do what you say. You need to be seen to do the things that everybody has in their mental kind of checklist are things that a good king does. And some of those are somewhat divorced from the reality of what actually is effective governance. It could be various public rituals that you do that people see and are like, oh yes, you're doing this parade every year. You're looking the part of a good king; therefore, I think of you as a good king. It could be military campaigns because there are a lot of those in the Middle Ages. And there's this interesting cycle where kings that have long and effective reigns then get to influence what the next generation of kings are going to have to do in order to look legitimate because people will point back at you and be like, well, Stephanie was an effective ruler, and she did X,Y,Z. And so, in order to look the part of an effective ruler, you should be doing those same things. STEPHANIE: That's fascinating. In some ways, I struggle with the idea that you have to prove that you're, you know, doing the kingly things and worthy of that title. But I do think that there is some degree of truth to that in your career as well, where you want to make sure that the work you're doing is visible. And you also just, in general, bring up a really good idea about the importance of leadership in career progression. And I think that in my experience, and from what I've observed, that is a vital way to progress your career is to just start demonstrating leadership qualities, and that could look like reaching out to new team members and helping them with onboarding. That could mean updating the documentation, just taking the initiative, and doing that. That could also mean starting to voice more of your opinions about risks or red flags about a certain technical implementation or a project because you have amassed the experience to be able to make those decisions and put in your two cents and then making sure that the choices that are made are the right ones. JOËL: Additionally, I think even when you're doing things that are a little bit more inward-focused, like learning something new, you can generally find some kind of artifact that you can take and share more broadly with a team. So maybe you experimented with something, and you wrote up a small code example to showcase the thing that you're trying out; make a Gist on GitHub and share it with your team. If you learn something new, maybe write a blog post about it. Maybe even just start a thread in Slack and start a conversation on something that you learned recently. These can be really low effort, but I always look for opportunities to take things that I have learned, things where I'm sort of working a little bit more inwardly on myself and see how can I share that with the rest of the team? Both because it benefits the team, they get to benefit from the impact of some of what you've done but also, it helps a little bit with making sure that your work is visible. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. JOËL: So we've been talking a lot about improving ourselves technically, but there's one question that we've danced around that we haven't actually addressed, and I'm curious about your thoughts here. For someone who's early career, do you think it's more valuable to be a specialist, someone who goes all in deep on one technology and becomes great at it? Or is it better to go more broad, become a generalist, and know a little bit about a lot of things? From the point of view of what will help move my career forward. STEPHANIE: I personally do think there is an aspect of being a generalist for a little while, a few years maybe, to get a taste of what is available to you. I think that is valuable before really committing to decide, okay, like, this is what I want to specialize in. Honestly, as a generalist myself, I still do feel a bit like I don't know what I want to dive deep into and commit myself a little bit to being like, okay, I'm going to have to sacrifice learning all of these other things to really focus on this one aspect. So I have found that being a generalist also kind of gives me the flexibility to work on different projects that might require learning a new language, or at least one that I am less familiar with. And I know that that's a skill in and of itself, being able to move on to different things and gather information and the skills you need to start contributing and working effectively quickly. So, honestly, I think I can really only speak to that experience, but it has served me well and is, for the most part, enjoyable to me at this present moment. What about you? Do you have any thoughts about generalist versus specialist? JOËL: I think, in a certain sense, there's no right answer. Like we said earlier, there are multiple paths to a career in tech, and you can go through both. I think something that I've seen be less effective, especially very early career folks, is trying to go too broad, jumping on every new language or framework every couple of weeks, every month, and just dipping your toe in it and then moving on to something else and never really learning deeply, or synthesizing, or building a mental model of things. And so you're kind of stuck in the shallow end forever, and it's hard to break through into that initial level of expertise. So I think, especially very early career people, I tend to recommend pick one language or technology and focus on getting good at that and then branch out. And, of course, you're never doing everything in a vacuum because there are a bajillion dev skills you need to learn beyond a language or framework. So I often categorize three areas to focus on that I like to recommend for people; one is pick a primary language or framework and get good at it. Two, learn some evergreen skills, these are things like version control, so Git, SQL, using the command line. And these are not things that you need to master on day one because you're going to use these your entire career. So learn a few things, move on, come back to them next month, learn a few more things, and just keep coming back there every now and then over the course of your entire career to deepen those skills, and that will serve you very well. And then, finally, some random thing you're interested in. I find that I learn so much faster and so much more deeply on topics that I'm interested in or passionate about. And that interest can be very random sometimes, and it can also be fleeting. It can be, oh, I was interested in a thing for a little bit, and I dug into it, and then I moved on to something else. If I have a career or learning plan, I like to leave that room for spontaneity to say there will be things that are maybe not strategically important as my next step, but I can learn them because I'm interested in them because they bring me joy. And then later on, maybe that will actually be the foundation of something important two years down the line where I can draw on that knowledge. STEPHANIE: You bring up a really interesting point. I do think my interpretation of generalist did line up more with the idea of those evergreen skills. So I think also about debugging and testing, and those are just part of the things that you're doing every day. And that might look different from project to project depending on what language or framework you're using and what testing philosophy people on your team abide by. But yeah, those are areas that I do think investing in will serve you well across projects and help put you in a position where you can jump into anything and be like, okay, I have these core foundational beliefs and skills about this work and now, okay, let me figure out how to apply them to the task at hand. JOËL: Are you familiar with the metaphor of the T-shaped developer? STEPHANIE: I don't think so. JOËL: So the idea is that you want to balance out a broad set of skills that you're a generalist at, that you know a little bit about them with a few things that you are a deep expert in. So you have that horizontal bar, but you also have a deep area of expertise which creates a kind of a T shape. In a sense, maybe that's just trying to say, like, do both. But I was recently reading an article that was advocating for not only a T-shaped developer as a sort of starting point but then also beyond that, over the course of a long career, you have plenty of opportunities to develop more than one specialization. And so now you start having a very broad base of general knowledge as well as multiple areas that you have spent significant time becoming an expert in. And this article referred to this idea as a comb-shaped developer, and that's something you work up to over the course of years or decades in tech. STEPHANIE: That's very cool. I love the idea that you might start out as a T-shaped but what you're doing is kind of like adding to your harness of skills and it being an additive process. You'd have more teeth in your comb [laughs] rather than it replacing something or a set of skills. On that note, shall we wrap up? JOËL: Let's wrap up. STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

"An advanced practice provider's scope of practice can vary drastically depending on where you practice; listen to the ASCO Education's third episode of the advanced practice providers series, and learn more from our co-hosts, Todd Pickard (MD Anderson Cancer Center) and Dr. Stephanie Williams, (Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine), along with guest speaker Heather Hylton (K Health) on what scope of practice is, who or what defines it, and why knowing this information is critical to your oncology care team success. If you liked this episode, please subscribe. Learn more at https://education.asco.org, or email us at education@asco.org   TRANSCRIPT Todd:  Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCO Education Podcast, and the third episode of the Advanced Practice Provider series. I'm Todd Pickard, your co-host for this series, along with Dr. Stephanie Williams. We'd also like to introduce you to our guest panelist today, Heather Hylton. Heather, why don't you share a bit about yourself, what you do, and where you're from. Heather: Sure. Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to join you in this podcast. My name is Heather Hylton. I'm a physician assistant based in New York. Most of my career has been in oncology, but I've been fortunate to have been able to serve in administrative and clinical roles in organizations in multiple states. So, I'm currently working in the remote care space, and I'm excited to bring this experience to our conversation. Todd:And Stephanie, why don't you remind our listeners today about your background, and why you have so much experience and really just have a really true appreciation for working with advanced practice providers. Stephanie: Thanks, Todd. I've worked in oncology for almost 40 years and I've had the opportunity to work with advanced practice providers, both physician assistants, and nurse practitioners for a couple of decades now. I've been in stem cell transplants and cellular therapy, and they're absolutely integral to our practice, both inpatient and outpatient in that particular field. Todd:  Well, in today's episode, we're going to be talking about advanced practice providers' scope of practice; what it is, what it means, who defines it, and why it is important for oncology APPs to know and understand what their scope of practice is. So, why don't we jump right in? So, I think it's important to define scope of practice first. So, I would like to just offer a little bit of a perspective around that language of scope of practice. Generally speaking, it is what is allowed by law at any particular state for an advanced practice provider to perform care on patients; what types of patients they can see, what kind of medications they can prescribe and write, what kind of activities they can be in, what kinds of relationships they have to have with other providers and delegating or collaborating physicians. So, generally speaking, a scope of practice can be very, very broad or it can be very, very narrow. And it really depends on the state and how the state defines it. So, I'm going to ask Heather to jump in here and can you provide an example or a story, or a case that comes to mind that helps illustrate scope of practice for an APP? Heather: Sure, I'd be happy to, you know, in terms of how I think about this, very simply stated is, what it is that I'm permitted to do as an advanced practice provider. And the boundaries, as you said around this, are really determined by a number of factors. So, education, training, experience, my competency, federal law in some cases, state laws, regulations. And this may also include, as you mentioned, specific physician collaboration requirements, facility policy, clinical privileges that are granted by that facility, sometimes payer policy factors in, and then of course, the needs of the patient. So, one very common question that comes up in the oncology space is, can APPs order or prescribe systemic therapy? And the answer of course, is really going to be determined by going through that checklist of the entities that determine if this is something that that APP can actually do. So, one example I have is a facility where the module that they utilized for ordering systemic therapy provided system rates only to physicians. And the facility that had been using that module before APPs were widely integrated. So, there were some innocent assumptions made that the absence of the APPs in the module meant it was “illegal” for APPs to order systemic therapy. So, in working with this group, we were able to go through this checklist. So, there were no federal or state restrictions on this particular clinical activity, but it needed to be written into the facility policy. So, criteria for establishing competency were devised. And then an education training plan was designed, implemented, and driving systemic therapy became part of that privileges requests from the APP, and then the systems' rights issues were also addressed. So, this was truly a success story in being able to safely expand the number of clinicians, who were able to prescribe systemic therapy in a busy and growing facility. Stephanie: Heather, what does it mean to you (this is a term that our administrators throw around a lot and our nurse managers throw around as well) to practice at the top of your license, whether you're a nurse, physician assistant, or an advanced practice nurse; what is the top of your license? Heather:  Well, this is a hot topic. And top-of-license practice really comes down to role optimization. It is just good business. It means that the patients and the caregiver's needs are being met by the professional with the appropriate training, experience and competency for each function or task that the professional performs. And from an engagement standpoint (which I know is not the topic of our conversation today, but it is important) we know that people want to engage in work that they find meaningful. While that definition certainly is individualized, a common thread is being able to leverage that education, training and experience you have to help others. And often, the reason why we really pursued our careers. Todd: I think this is such an important topic to talk about, is the top of license practice, because it really impacts all of us, Stephanie. You know, as physicians, you want to do what you've been trained to do, which is to assess a patient, have a differential diagnosis, do a diagnostic workup, arrive at a diagnosis, create a treatment plan, and have that treatment plan implemented so that you can care for the patient. And APPs are the same way. So, when you have folks, whoever they are, whether they are the nurse or the advanced practice provider or the physician or the social worker or the pharmacist, whoever it is; if they are utilized in a way that does not take into account all the skills and competencies that they have to deploy and provide for that patient, they're really working below the top of license. As an example, if you had an APP go from room to room to room with you seeing patients and the only thing that you had the APP doing was scribing, that APP is working well below their licensure. And in fact it's incredibly wasteful with limited resources in healthcare, to have folks who have lots of skills and competencies working at a level where you really should have a different member of the team providing that service. Like if you need a scribe, you should get a scribe. And so, I think that kind of illustration really makes it salient to folks to think about; we should all work to stretch the knowledge and skills and competencies that we spent so much time developing in all of our training and our certification. Because otherwise, it's just wasteful. And as Heather said, it's not very satisfying. Stephanie: Todd, I think that those are excellent points that you bring out and I think that's very important for people to realize that APPs aren't scribes, they aren't there to extend me. They're there to help me as a physician in my practice, to help the patients actually. And then we should work together as a team to give the best patient care that we can. But many times I see my colleagues, just as you said, going from room to room with their APP and expecting the APP, you know, “I'll pontificate and tell you do this, that, that and the other, and then you go out there.” I think also from a career and job satisfaction rating, it's really important to have that team around that can help each other out. And I think that really does help in terms of decreasing burnout and other things like that. Todd: So, Heather, can you give us some idea of how is scope of practice defined at a state or an institutional level? How do people arrive at those kinds of decisions or, you know, how does an institution decide what the scope of practice is? How does it work? Heather: Taking a step back and just, you know, kind of thinking about it through different lenses. So, you know, in contrast to physicians whose scope of practice has minimal variability from state to state, we know that there can be a bit more state to state variability for APPs. And the regulatory bodies or agencies can also be different. And there may be multiple agencies that weigh in on what that APP can do within a particular state. And so, it's certainly important to be familiar with the Practice Act for each state in which you are licensed. And I would also add onto this, in certain geographic areas, this may be particularly relevant to you if you are in a practice that has multiple locations in multiple states, but we'll come back to that a little bit later. But, you know, again, kind of going through your checklist, starting off, looking at what the Practice Act says, and these can all be written up in many different ways. Sometimes it comes across as what I would call like a laundry list, which when you first read it, seems pretty straightforward, but it can also kind of lead you into some issues because if it isn't on there, then what does that mean? Some Practice Acts are written up really more on the basis of what activities are excluded or things that you cannot do as an APP. And then some are just kept very broad, which sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but I would encourage you to not be uncomfortable with that because sometimes, they're written this way in order to give you more flexibility to set that scope of practice at facility level, which is ideally where you really want to be cited. You don't want to create something more limiting or more restrictive than what the state actually allows you to do. Todd: That is a critically important point and one that in my 24 years as an advanced practice provider who happens to be a PA, that has come up often and frequently is, “Well, it doesn't say this” or, “It doesn't specifically exclude that. And so, we're uncomfortable.” And my response is, “Well, that gives us an opportunity to create this space”, because, you know, many times, as you point out, Heather, these kind of ambiguities are written intentionally, so that local practice decisions can be made, so that physicians and advanced practice nurses and PAs can decide as a team, how do we work? You know, in my state, it was very specific that they wanted APPs and physicians to collaborate on ‘what does our practice look like?' And every local level, outside of those very large kind of rules about who can prescribe and who can pronounce a patient dead or write a restraining order — outside of those very large things, they really want us, they want the care team to figure it out and to do it in a way that's best for our patients. I think that is the best approach, is when we get to decide how we work. You know, the places, some of the states that have these laundry lists, you're right, Heather, it seems like, “Oh, that's easy,” but then you're like, “wait a minute, there's only 10 things on this list and we do, you know, 57, what does that mean?” And so, I think it can be very disadvantageous when you have those lists. And I do think it's important to think through these things, work with your legal colleagues to analyze these things, and then take an approach, stake out some territory, you know, once you've gotten informed and say, “This is what our scope looks like, we've all talked about it and this is how we're going to work as a team.” So, that's wonderful when you've got that level of flexibility. I think that's really great. Stephanie: Does insurance reimbursement play any role in terms of scope of practice, either locally or nationally? Heather:  It absolutely can. And it's important to know, for example, if you are in a practice, where you're seeing Medicare patients, to understand Medicare conditions of participation. If you are in a practice where you are taking care of patients with Medicaid or certainly private payers as well, like understanding what is actually in those contracts, so that you can make sure that you are either updating them if you need to, or making sure that what you need to be able to bill for is billable within those contracts. Todd: It's really interesting because I always have a sense of feeling like I need to cringe when somebody says we can't do this because of a reimbursement issue, and also, partially laugh. And the reason why I have both of those reactions is it's typically a misunderstanding, because saying that we won't reimburse for oxygen unless a physician's order is present to prescribe the oxygen does not equate to only a physician can do this. And so, you constantly have to kind of explore these issues and say, “Okay, so yes they use the word physician, but as an APP who has a collaborative delegatory relationship with a physician, and according to my state license and scope of practice, I write physician orders.” So, if you connect those dots, if I, as the APP, have written the physician order for the oxygen, it meets your criteria. It doesn't say a person who holds a medical license, it says physician order. And so, I think that's where you have to really constantly be on guard about these misconceptions, misunderstandings, and these ambiguities. And as Heather said, working with APPs, you just have to say, “Look, there's going to be ambiguities, we're going to work it out, we're going to figure it out. And, you know, reimbursement is important.” But you have to remind folks that reimbursement doesn't define practice, it defines how you get paid. Stephanie: Excellent point, Todd. Excellent. Heather: I'll add a story to that as well. When I first came to New York, I became aware of a situation where the narrative at a particular facility was that a major private payer would not reimburse for services provided by PAs. Now, I thought that was a little strange, but, you know, I was a new kid in town, but at that time — there are more now, but at that time there were 10,000 PAs in New York. That's a pretty big number. And so, I thought, you know, I probably would've heard something about this if this major payer would not reimburse for these services. So, to help with the situation, I started doing the research, you know, looking at specific information from the payer, checking with connections at other facilities to learn about any issues that they may have experienced with this payer, checking with our national organization and so forth. And really, nothing was coming up, suggested that the payer would not buy reimbursement for services provided by PAs. And ultimately, it came down to something very simple, which was the facility just didn't have this in their payer contract, they hadn't needed it up to that point. So, it made perfect sense and it was fixed once the issue was identified. So, this goes back to just being very vigilant about the research that you're doing. And sometimes, it takes a little time to get to the solution, but really that perseverance does pay off. Todd: Heather, I'm sitting here, I'm laughing because I just had a recent example of where the right and the left hand within a state had no idea what was happening. So, an employer who does ambulatory outpatient treatments at different retail locations (we'll just leave it at that) there was this concept that PAs as an example, were ineligible because of the state requirements that then were reflected in this company's policy. And what was so interesting is that a PA colleague of mine started investigating and I said, “Well, what does the state law say?” And she went and she looked and she said, “Oh, it was changed last year that this thing that was causing this policy in this employer was changed.” And I said, “Well, does the company know that the law was changed?” So, she reached out to the medical director who was a physician, whose daughter was happening to want to go to PA school. So, she had an in, she had an in right away, which serendipity does play a part here. And she said, “Did you know that the state law changed?” And they said, “No.” And so, she sent them the state law and then within a week, the medical director said, “Oh, just so you know, we're hiring PAs now, we've updated our internal policies to reflect state law.” So, sometimes it's just these small things that people forget the details, that when something changes, you have to reflect that in your policies of companies or institutions or your practice group. And that's the one thing that I think is so different for APPs from physicians. Physicians are kind of just granted this big broad authority and it rarely changes. It's very stoic and it's kind of fixed. But for APPs it is constantly in flux, constantly in flux. And that's just the nature of it. I don't know why it's been that way. We've organically developed this in the United States over the past 50 years, maybe 50 years from now, it'll be different, but right now, it's not. And so, I think that's the important thing is there's more space out there for advanced practice, scope of practice and top of licensure, than you think is possible. It just requires a little work. Heather: I will say that I 100% agree and, you know, when you take a step back from some of these, like these Practice Acts, they tell a story about the climate in the state and the history in the state. And it's quite fascinating if you like that. I'm not the most fun person at a party, but, you know, these things, they tell a story and it gives you a good sense of what's actually going on in the micro environment in that state. In the last year plus, I've spent a lot of time reviewing Practice Acts of most of the states of the union, and so, I have this ability to really compare. And I also know which states I really, really like and which ones are a little bit more challenging. But there are things like even legislation that's left over from the industrial revolution that's actually influenced how a particular pharmacy interprets, you know, whether or not they can accept a prescription without a counter signature from a physician. And so, some of these things, like when you start drawing some of these lines, it becomes very interesting and it definitely comes down to some interpretation as well. So, always being able to work with a good legal team or people who do understand Practice Act information and working with your state resources as well, as well as your national organizations can be very impactful. Todd:  I would also say step one is to pull up whatever Practice Act is influencing something and read it. They are in English, they're not in Latin or French, they're in English. And many times, you can find something very plainly said. Other times you do need your legal friends to help you understand, “Okay, now what does this mean? I read the words but it's not clear.” But sometimes it will say, you know, “An APP may prescribe a controlled substance.” Period. So, oh, well, there's an answer right there. Now, there may be a how-to section later, in another part of the regulatory or administrative code within a state, but for the most part is, don't be afraid to look, don't be afraid to phone a friend and explore and ask questions. Stephanie:  You're eligible though for controlled substance licenses nationally, right? A DEA number? Todd:  That's a hot topic. Stephanie:  Is it? Heather: There may be other things that you need to do within a state as well in order to prescribe. So, for example, in Massachusetts, even to prescribe legend drugs, you need a Mass Controlled Substance Registration, because any substance that's not a DEA scheduled substance is considered a category 6 substance in Massachusetts. So, if I'm going to write a prescription for Omeprazole, I need to have a Massachusetts Controlled Substance Registration, as any prescriber would in the state. So, again, some of these little nuances, making sure that you're very familiar with that and doing the research. Stephanie: So Heather, you're in New York, I'm sure you get patients from Massachusetts. So, you have to make certain that you can prescribe both in New York and Massachusetts and probably, Rhode Island and all the states around there? Heather: Well, you bring up a really good point, which is, you know,when you are in a practice that has locations in multiple states, and we can talk about telehealth a little bit later. But if you are in a medical group that has practice sites, say in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York, licensed in all three states, and you work at sites in all three states, say you're an APP who likes to float and you make these commutes each day. So, all three states may have significant differences in their Practice Acts or what you need to do in order to optimize your practice in that state. And that includes collaboration requirements. So, some states have the ability for nurse practitioners to have autonomous practice, but there may be other steps where you may need a particular license, in order to be able to do that within that state. So, again, being very aware of those steps that you need to take is really important. Stephanie: So, Heather, you mentioned telehealth, which is a big topic through COVID. I don't really have to tell people how big a topic that is. So, what are the changes or what is going to happen with that now that we're “getting to the other end of COVID”? Heather:  That's a big question mark, right? So, certainly, the advancement of telehealth was an important development during the pandemic. And many states have a separate set of laws, regulations that govern delivery of healthcare services through telehealth. So, if your practice is utilizing telehealth to deliver medical services, it's necessary to be fluent in this information. So, this can include important information such as how a patient provider relationship is established. And, you know, it may also include information on prescribing practices, what may or may not be permitted or the conditions under which a prescription can be provided and so forth. And so, some states relaxed telehealth-related rules under state of emergency declarations. And so, making sure that you are up-to-date on this as some of those rules have returned to the pre-pandemic state and some of those relaxations actually became permanent. And of course, if you're billing for these services, knowing the payer requirements and then the policies and procedures you need to follow, in order to bill for those services. And where the patient is physically located at the time that the service is being provided, is the state in which you need to be licensed in order to provide that service. So, if Todd is performing a telehealth service for a patient in Oklahoma and he's not licensed in Oklahoma, he won't be able to see that patient. Todd:  It's really strange because telehealth has brought a different layer of perspective around scope of practice and licensure that we hadn't really faced as much before, right? So, for example, I've been a PA for 24 years. I have been able to call across state lines and interact with patients and talk to them on the phone, get updates on their surgery, if they're having, you know, a postoperative infection, get them an antibiotic and do that kind of work forever. But as soon as you add that technology and that billing entity called a telehealth encounter or a virtual encounter, it becomes a different animal all of a sudden. And this really came to light during the pandemic. And we quickly realized all of these things made it impossible. And that's why all the states did all of these emergency declarations saying, “Just forget it, just take care of people.” But now that we're getting past that, we're kind of going backwards, not because anything bad happened, but because folks are saying, “Well, we want to go back to the older ways where, you know, every state could have differences in regulations and make folks pay those professional fees to get licensure.” So, it'll be interesting to see how this space develops, particularly since our patients are becoming more consumers. Really, they want to talk to who they want to talk to, when they want to talk to them, and they want service here and now. And I think we're going to have to continue to respond and adapt to that. And some places will lead and some places will lag. But those lagging places quickly are going to start having conversations within the state and our legislators will respond. I mean, politically, it will change over time. It just, you know, matters how quickly. So, it's really an interesting thing to watch unfold in real time. Stephanie: Heather, any final remarks, concerns, advice to those out there, both physicians and advanced practice providers, about how to handle questions about, my God, what is your scope of practice? Heather:  I'm so glad you asked Stephanie because I have a list I might be able to pass them along. So, here we go. Do take the time to review the state Practice Act information and laws and regulations and of course facility policy governing a practice where you are. And as the license holder, you are responsible for knowing what you are permitted to do. Please do not make any assumptions about others' knowledge of this. Unfortunately, I've seen people get caught up in that and always own it, yourself. Generally, recommend facility policy not be more restrictive than what is permitted under the Practice Act of the state. Fact check, challenge your assumptions, and if you haven't had the chance to already do so, do check out the ASCO Advanced Practice Provider Onboarding and Practice Guide for more resources. Stephanie: Well, I'd like to thank Heather for her excellent insight into this very complicated topic. Todd, as always, is always on top of everything. And sharing both your experiences and your ideas with us on APP scope of practice, which can vary quite drastically depending upon the state and also the type of institution you practice in. Stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, take care. Voiceover:  Thank you for listening to the ASCO Education Podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, please click subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the Comprehensive Education Center at education.asco.org. Voiceover: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy, should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

“If you can create better boundaries to just slow down a little bit, it is crazy how everything else will feel so much more amazing,” shares Stephanie Fusnik, nutrition coach. Stephanie saw through her medical schooling and career that there were large gaps in the way the healthcare system approaches physical rehabilitation, chronic disease, and weight loss. In particular, her older female clients were struggling to lose weight or improve their health based on their doctor's recommendations that were not taking into consideration the impact of hormones on metabolism. Stephanie soon realized that by teaching perimenopausal and menopausal women about the role of hormones like cortisol in their bodies, her clients finally saw noticeable results not only in weight loss, but also overall quality of life.   Once perimenopause and menopause begin, women's bodies no longer can handle stress in the same way that they were able to before. Cortisol levels increase and stay high rather than returning to normal, because there is a lack of hormonal buffers like estrogen and progesterone that would typically help with controlling them. When cortisol levels are high, women experience increased brain fog, weight gain, digestive problems, and trouble sleeping. Learning to implement and uphold boundaries in order to reserve time and energy for yourself to not get overly stressed is pivotal for helping lower cortisol levels. With proper boundaries and an understanding of how hormones impact overall health and metabolism, it is possible to repair your relationship with your newly changed body.    Perimenopause and menopause cause large changes in the way women's bodies work. The shifts in hormones cause increased cortisol, slower metabolism, and in turn an increase in a variety of other health issues. Tune into this week's episode of The Catalyst to learn more about the impact of menopause on the body, why boundaries are so important for overall health, and how nutrition plays a role in managing hormones.    Quotes • “There's not enough information on this out there because lots of studies are done on men, and the whole fasting thing, and not eating your carbs, and eating low calorie, and those things don't work anymore.” (5:04-5:13 | Stephanie) • “To dismiss someone's health concerns is one of the most disrespectful things you could ever do.” (7:25-7:29 | Stephanie) • “Stress is stress. And you get the same response whether it's good or bad, your body doesn't give a shit. So then we go through these hormonal changes. And typically before, we can handle it okay, because we have hormonal buffers like estrogen, progesterone, they all help us deal with that kind of stuff. As soon as we go through peri-menopause, and menopause, and those things drop, our body cannot handle that stress anymore.” (10:13-10:34 | Stephanie) • “If you can create better boundaries to just slow down a little bit, it is crazy how everything else will feel so much more amazing.” (15:56-16:04 | Stephanie) • “You're supposed to be selfish in certain aspects of your life. If you're not taking care of yourself, or doing things that you love, and you're not happy, that will bleed into all your relationships.” (17:15-17:24 | Stephanie)  • “Just because you're not scheduled for something doesn't mean you're available.” (19:53-19:57 | Stephanie)   Links Connect with Stephanie Fusnik: Website: www.vitalityosteopathicandexercisetherapy.com Tiktok: vitalityoet.stephanie FB: Stephanie Fusnik FB Group: Metabolism and Menopause by Vitality - Secrets for Fat Loss Instagram: vitalityoet.stephanie   Connect with Lara:  Website: https://drlarasalyer.com Instagram: @drlarasalyer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drlarasalyer Linked-In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlarasalyer/ YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/DrLaraSalyer TikTok: @Creativity.Doctor   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

In this episode, I have the opportunity to talk with a self made entrepreneur who's followed the footsteps of her amazing dad, and in the journey has discovered what the tips are that the wealthy use to invest to change your life. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So I have been trying to track down this person multiple times and admitted it was my fault. I could not get my calendar right to meet with Stephanie Walter. So glad to have her here with me today. I'm fascinated with her background, what she's done in terms of growing wealth. But before I go any further, Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.  Grant Yes, this is fun to have you here. Your journey is a fascinating one to me, because it's this journey as I reviewed it, of gathering some financial capabilities, but then not resting on that, but rather using it to leverage for future wealth. So I don't want to give that away because I want I want our listeners to hear this cool journey that you've gone on. But let's rewind. Okay, let's uh, we won't go back to where you were raised as a kid. But let's go back to you get out of school, and you're thinking I'm gonna go do some work. And that led you down a certain path? Would you talk about that? Yeah, I did what like most people do, I got it. I just got a regular job with a corporation. Stephanie I had some interest in insurance. So I became a claims adjuster. And, and I sort of moved up the ranks pretty pretty quickly to where I was working kind of as a liaison between the attorneys in that represented the insurance companies and, and the insurance company. So that was, that was really interesting, but just, you know, working in a corporate setting, I remember that, you know, my pivotal point was I was getting a 2% Raise after my superiors had said, what a fantastic job I was. You're welcome all 2% Did you get to keep all that 2%? Or did you know you got to keep?  Grant That's impressive. Yeah. Stephanie And I went home to my Dad, I just bought a house and was like, Dad, I just, you know, look at how much gets taken out. But with taxes, it was a big learning experience. I mean, well, as you know, I did put, you know, seven years into it, but just realize that, you know, if I'm making these 2% races for the rest of my life, you know, what is that going to look like? And my dad was an entrepreneur, actually, he's a second generation entrepreneur. And he's like, Well, you know, what you're gonna get if you stay in this, but if you go out on your own, you know, really what you build will be up to you. And it's your choice to do what you want to do. And I gave my my two week notice probably the next day, did you really? Oh, wow. That's okay. Wow, a woman a decision and action. That's awesome. Grant So, all right, so you gave you gave the two week notice you left, and then you didn't go to the pool? That's for sure. What did you go though? Stephanie Well, I have a I have a lot of relatives and insurance. And that's kind of how I started in doing in claims to begin with. And so I just knew, you know, the company I was really familiar with, went and signed up with them, took all the classes to become an agent and and just, you know, started started working, you know, right off the bat, state and insurance agent for about 16 years.  See, I started that I'm trying to think of like timeframes, I think it was 2004. And then right around that same time, I kind of decided, you know, with the when the bottom fell out to buy some real estate, single family homes, right in an area in Denver, I'm a native, as I mentioned, where I felt like if there would be growth, from Denver that, you know, over time, these would probably be good, good investments to have. And that was in the Sloan's Lake area if people are familiar. And so I became, you know, a untrained landlord, as well as a business owner at the same time, all in one shot. So quick question. So when you did this transition out of the corporate world, into the entrepreneur going to do myself. Grant How many entrepreneur books did you read before you got started? Stephanie You know, I? I didn't read that many.  Grant Yeah, that's like I could tell you just jumped in and went after it. Right? You got going on. Stephanie I think also my my step up in that area was I'd see my dad growing up who had never, who had always had businesses and so to I never saw him work a nine to five job, you know, have a two week vacation or anything like that. So I had a very good example of what an entrepreneur looks like. And so that's probably why I didn't need to read books. I have since read a lot of books.  Grant But yeah, yeah. But you had a role model, you had a mentor to follow after. Alright, so you go through this journey, you run your real, or excuse me, your insurance agency for 16 years. What happened? Stephanie I mean, as time went on, there was you know, also some distaff dissatisfaction. Because you, you know, you really like your clients, and they're doing business because of you. But then there's this big, you know, corporation behind you, mine was Farmers Insurance, who, you know, ultimately makes the decisions based on, you know, the claims and the the rate changes and things like that. So that became kind of frustrating. But then also, you know, again, my dad was, you know, pretty. He passed away, actually, shortly after I started my agency, but I'm sorry, yeah, thank you. But I had, I remembered a lot of things as time went on. I was like, Oh, I remember when Dad said that. And one of the things he always said was, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And that was for me, that meant just, you know, don't continue, farmers was very big on, take a loan out, to keep running your visit business, make it bigger, make it better, all these things, where I just sort of directed my money in my growth into real estate, because I felt like it wasn't so attached to to the business. And I loved real estate. I didn't know much about it. I certainly wasn't very educated about it. Oh, I think it was 2016 I had gotten an invitation to a boot camp and about buying apartments, which I had always been curious about, oh, cool. Went into there. And that's where I first heard the term syndication. And I was I was just blown away, I'd never heard that I loved the idea of a group of people buying something that no one could do on their own. And I from that point on, I was all in there. I did about three years thing me maybe it was only No, I think it was only two years of education, which, you know, was an investment, but you come out of that bait being able to be very knowledgeable about commercial real estate, which is very different than residential real estate residential.  Grant So if I hear you, right, I think you said that this transition to real estate, it was a diversification strategy for you following your dad's counsel, right not to have all your eggs in one basket. You still had the insurance company at least for a while, right? And then then you started investing in the real estate, is that right?  Stephanie Yeah. i And well, I had all I had invested, you know, in the single family homes and they're, you know, through the last crash and then wanted to do the apartments and then in 2016, that really was probably, I mean, I kept running my agency obviously, until actually last year when I Um, my investing had my income from investing had exceeded my, my business income. So I was able to retire, or in my case, just do do a different career for a while. Grant I love that when I saw that in your profile, I thought that was the ultimate, which was to sort of break away. It's that, hey, I'm no longer just going to be a business sort of operator, right? I'm actually going to step aside and let let your income or your assets generate that income for you, right. It's the money's working for you. And I saw that in your notes too, which was a, you said some interesting about the way the wealthy do it, which is the wealthy have their money working for them? Was that always at the forefront of your mind? Or did you sort of discover that along the way?  Stephanie No, that's a that's a big, I think it was big, the aha moment for me. And how I describe it is that I believe most people, and I was one of those most people believed in an accumulation model of money, which meant for most people is I'm going to accumulate the money in my 401k. I never really, you know, went down that path from owning my own business, I wanted to accumulate my money in real estate. But yet my idea was the same, which is I'm going to buy this property and manage it for 30 years until the loan is paid off. And then I will live off of the rents or whatever at that time. But when I started raising money for the syndications, I started becoming friends and, you know, meeting really, very interesting, you know, wealthy people, and just notice that they were doing stuff differently than than I was, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But after a while of working with them, I realized that they look at their money as a good word is utilization. They're always using their money. They're using their money to give them cash flow. And there was kind of the light bulb that came on for me. Later on. You know, I started doing syndications in 2018, and I think it was the end of 2019 that I started to sell my properties one by one, and invest them in syndications. Because I realized I had these this great big chunk just sitting in and it's really not doing much as far as you know, cash flow, helping me out at all. Whereas, you know, if I just shifted my focus and where I put my money, the returns as far as cash flow, were really significant. Yeah, Major.  Grant Have you ever played that game called cashflow there? I've heard about the Robert Kiyosaki Robert Kiyosaki game. Yeah, I've never played it, you shouldn't play I have a feeling you do really well with it.  Stephanie Yeah.  Grant Excellent with cash flow is king, as you're as you're pointing out, and the ability to get that cash flow lined up and consistently look at money as a tool to deliver the cash flow is critical. So that 401k experience, I've had that same journey where I was putting money I was putting money in in a 401k. And then the first time the market in my career, you know, did this massive dive down, right, and I'm sitting there thinking, I know that there's someone on Wall Street's buying puts against my investment making a ton of money while I'm losing a ton, wait, who came up with this strategy, right? You know, also you could keep your you know, 2% Raise, it is it is a disservice to the working class for sure. So, did you did you ever get involved in the 401k strategy? Or, or did you ultimately just leave it wouldn't? What happened there?  Stephanie Eight, actually, I have my series six, when to be a n 63. So for the audience, that just means that I was registered to sell products, you know, mutual funds and things like that to my database of clients. I never really like to that I never really, I felt the variability and that the training that I was given never seemed to give me a lot of anxiety. And so I never really did much with that. And inevitably let those those licenses go. But though the 401k Actually, I'm in the process of writing a book and there's going to be there's one chapter that's dedicated to the 401k, which I do a great deal, you know of research on and you you pit. You know some really good points on on that. And but it's just letting people question it because there are so many things about the 401 K that are, you know, you're giving you're giving your money to someone else to watch. And they're not doing it for free. And financial institutions want to hold on to your money for as long as they can and give it back, as you know, little as they can. And so you're you're using your money to subsidize things that you probably don't even know your money's doing. And I know, these are hard things to come to in this day and age when it's just like, can I just give my money to this person and have him manage it? Or have the 401k make those decisions? Why do I have to be involved with everything, it really is a significant amount of money that you pay to these financial institutions. And you can do much better on your own. But I won't go into that. That's a whole nother discussion.  Grant That but that's your journey, though. I think your journey is you figured out Wait a minute, I can do something differently with this. And you took control of it right? You did the education you put in the work, you discovered cash flows. The secret to this, let my money work on just building even small incremental cash flow growth and how critical that is in the strategy. Stephanie One other point just quickly is I was watching something on TV last night, and there was several commercials that came on. And they were women. They were geared to women and there they were talking about, you know, women and finances are bad with finances. And the whole message in this commercial was save your money for retirement or whatever. And I was like, I want to just get out the message that it's not saving your money. It's investing your money and learn how to be a good investor, because those are the things that are going to allow you to retire early or retire in not a poverty situation. But in you know, invest and learn how to invest because it isn't as hard as people think it is, you know?  Grant Yeah, absolutely. I love that and are good. I understand. You're right. Did you say the messaging in that TV ad was that women are bad with finances? Is that what you say?  Stephanie Yeah, I think well, they were trying to you know, women were kind of trying to empower themselves by saying, I'm not bad with finances, even though you know, I've been told that women are bad with finances, but it seemed like the solution for them in that commercial was save. Save your money. You say? Like, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, good. Good. Debt should produce cashflow. Right. That's, that's actually that's actually the message right there. One of the things I noticed as I was looking at your background, and the things you've done, as you had made a comment if I if I've got this right. Grant Money myths, you talked about money myths, and I think you just touched on one of those. What other money myths? Have you learned that we hold on to that? Are these incorrect notions that actually hurt us financially? What have you found?  Stephanie There's one very significant one, which is people will say, well, the wealthy people, you know, I've talked to people and they'll be like, Oh, but the reason the people you work with have so much money is because they're willing to take these crazy risks with their money, and stuff like that high risks. That's that's why they got where they are, they are and I say actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of wealthy people invest in extremely conservative things. They, the other myth is, you know, put put your money into the stock market. Many people can't tell you in their mutual funds, what they're invested in, what even one company is that they're invested in, let alone who's who are the team members on that, you know, on board or who's the CEO of the company, they can't tell you anything. Whereas wealthy people they tend to invest if they do invest in businesses, they invest directly in a business, either for themselves or they understand the dynamics of the business and the business plan and they invest that way. If they invest in real estate, they largely do the syndications and they get to know the team that's running, running the syndication. They know what kind of experience they have, what kind of past returns they've done. They do their homework in that sense. But then once they've invested in the team, they tend to invest again and again. And these are very conservative things that they're investing in things that are tangible in value. That's another. That's right. Three things I'm hitting is wealthy people tend to invest in things that have tangible value, which means, you know, an apartment complex Well, let's say, for some reason, it's terribly mismanaged and it goes out of nobody wants to be in it anymore. Well, you still have the building and the land in which you can sell. So there's, there's tangible value there. Grant Okay, so the tangible piece, that's interesting, too, especially in today's world, where digital assets are becoming more and more of a thing, right. In fact, I saw recently, someone talking about digital real estate on one of the online ads, you know, doesn't feel tangible, right. Are all the NFT stuff going on? Right are the crypto so many intangibles today as well? It Do you have any position or thoughts when they do that?  Stephanie I don't because I guess I always take the line if I if I don't understand it, or if it's not something that I want, you know, I guess it comes down to really understanding it. I've had a lot of people explain it to me, but I still don't, you know, the ups and downs, you know, lately, it's been a pretty big crash, you know, people are saying that's a good thing. Okay, I still don't really understand it. And I know that they're planning on, you know, digitizing, then that's, that's probably, you know, not too far away in real estate, you know, 10, I would hope it's going to be 1015 years in the future. I don't know what that looks like. But that's definitely something in the future. I don't think that is wrong. And when I say that the wealthy people invest in, they probably do have some investments in cryptocurrency, but that's probably less than 5% of their portfolio. Great majority of what they're invested in, probably 30% Every year. If you go on to the name of this group is called Tiger 21. And it's, it's for wealthy, wealthy people, I think they have to show a net worth of at least five or $10 million to get in the group. But every year, by agreeing to be in this group, they agreed to release as a group, kind of a asset allocation of all of their investments, and every year, there doesn't change that much. And over 30% is in real estate.  Grant Really. Okay. All right. That's interesting. That's fascinating. One of the things that I noticed as I looked at it now Now the name your company, you're gonna have to help me because is it Erbe Wealth? This Erbe?  Stephanie Well, Erbe Wealth, okay, everybody. Well, thank you Erbe Wealth.  Grant Well, so I'm on your site, I was on your site. And I was checking out. This is really cool. erbewealth.com. And I went to the about page and told my listeners, you should check this out. Stephanie's got this thing called the 15% Plus community. Can you talk about that?  Stephanie Yeah, well, I mean, my partner and I started working together in 2018. And we both realized, as many successful pairings go is that he had some skills in in this in the certain areas, and I had skills in certain areas. And together, we have really done very well together, and we just closed on our 12th deal about two weeks ago. And every single deal that we put together has returned over 15%. But truthfully, every every one that we've done up to this point has returned over 20%. So the person designing my website said, I don't know you might want to just put that down to 15%. But every deal that we have done has had an annualized rate of return of over 20%. So if you're we, our goal is when we hold the money for three to four years, then we'll double your investment in that time. And we have we've done that successfully, and we have a system and we're will we're continuing with it.  Grant That's amazing and that's that's leveraging the syndicated real estate strategy.  Stephanie Yep, that's we buy apartment complexes and a very specific market in the country, we have a very specific buying strategy that allows us to get in and make money when we purchase it, purchase the property. And then we just find areas where there's there's been a lot of growth, and there's been a lot of rent growth and population growth. And I think if anyone's been listening to the news is we know that there's a housing shortage. So we buy in areas where, you know, there's a great deal of population growth and not enough housing,  Grant What is your what is your perfect client look like? What's their profile? Like? Stephanie I mean, I would like it to be more broad than than it is, it's usually, you know, well, to invest in our deals, you need to be accredited, which, you know, that means you need to have a net worth of a million, or you have a $200,000 salary. And so I love working with business owners, that's kind of my thought to I tend to attract a lot our business owners, because, well, one is, they're so busy trying to make their business work, and I'm talking more like smaller business owners, you know, and, you know, trying to manage their company, which they're very passionate about, but business owners tend to not really plan that well for their retirement, because they're just, you know, they're thinking all about this. Yeah. Run on the business constantly, right? Yep. Right. So those are, you know, those are the people I love to work with, just to you know, get them some cash flow, that that is nice, but as well as just having, you know, great returns that they don't have to manage, you know, at all.  Grant So, okay, very good. While you've been very generous with your time, can you give our listeners a place to go to to learn more about you? Yeah, to your website?  Stephanie Yep. That's my website, which is erbewealth.com. There's, I have I think, right now, it's not a lot, but it's about 15 articles that I've written, that just I try to really educate the newer investor that isn't familiar with this type of investing. And then there's a track record of of all of our Not, not cherry cherry pick deals closer, every single deal that we've done together, up until this point, and then you can join, you know, the list the email list to get notifications, I like to really educate my investors, as well as then they get the first, you know, chance of getting the new investment when it comes out. But air Bay, actually is the German word for legacy. And my dad was a second generation, my grandfather came over on the boat right from Germany. And he became an entrepreneur after he paid his dues and did everything he needed to do to become a citizen. And then my dad, you know, followed in his footsteps and was an entrepreneur.  Grant So I was gonna ask you about the backstory on that name. I was trying to figure out Erbe. What is that? Yes, that's awesome. I appreciate that.  Stephanie Yeah, not to my dad, who never you know, saw any of this, but definitely, it's because of him that this has happened. I can tell you have an awesome dad. Really cool.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, any final comments that you want to share? Stephanie No, no, but I'd say you know, just just check on my website. I'm trying to, like I said, working on a book and that that'll be my next. I'm hoping to have it done by the end of summer. So when when it's available, it will be available on my website as well.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, thank you so much for taking the time with us today, everyone.  Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out erbewealth.com.  

In this episode, I have the opportunity to talk with a self made entrepreneur who's followed the footsteps of her amazing dad, and in the journey has discovered what the tips are that the wealthy use to invest to change your life. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So I have been trying to track down this person multiple times and admitted it was my fault. I could not get my calendar right to meet with Stephanie Walter. So glad to have her here with me today. I'm fascinated with her background, what she's done in terms of growing wealth. But before I go any further, Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.  Grant Yes, this is fun to have you here. Your journey is a fascinating one to me, because it's this journey as I reviewed it, of gathering some financial capabilities, but then not resting on that, but rather using it to leverage for future wealth. So I don't want to give that away because I want I want our listeners to hear this cool journey that you've gone on. But let's rewind. Okay, let's uh, we won't go back to where you were raised as a kid. But let's go back to you get out of school, and you're thinking I'm gonna go do some work. And that led you down a certain path? Would you talk about that? Yeah, I did what like most people do, I got it. I just got a regular job with a corporation. Stephanie I had some interest in insurance. So I became a claims adjuster. And, and I sort of moved up the ranks pretty pretty quickly to where I was working kind of as a liaison between the attorneys in that represented the insurance companies and, and the insurance company. So that was, that was really interesting, but just, you know, working in a corporate setting, I remember that, you know, my pivotal point was I was getting a 2% Raise after my superiors had said, what a fantastic job I was. You're welcome all 2% Did you get to keep all that 2%? Or did you know you got to keep?  Grant That's impressive. Yeah. Stephanie And I went home to my Dad, I just bought a house and was like, Dad, I just, you know, look at how much gets taken out. But with taxes, it was a big learning experience. I mean, well, as you know, I did put, you know, seven years into it, but just realize that, you know, if I'm making these 2% races for the rest of my life, you know, what is that going to look like? And my dad was an entrepreneur, actually, he's a second generation entrepreneur. And he's like, Well, you know, what you're gonna get if you stay in this, but if you go out on your own, you know, really what you build will be up to you. And it's your choice to do what you want to do. And I gave my my two week notice probably the next day, did you really? Oh, wow. That's okay. Wow, a woman a decision and action. That's awesome. Grant So, all right, so you gave you gave the two week notice you left, and then you didn't go to the pool? That's for sure. What did you go though? Stephanie Well, I have a I have a lot of relatives and insurance. And that's kind of how I started in doing in claims to begin with. And so I just knew, you know, the company I was really familiar with, went and signed up with them, took all the classes to become an agent and and just, you know, started started working, you know, right off the bat, state and insurance agent for about 16 years.  See, I started that I'm trying to think of like timeframes, I think it was 2004. And then right around that same time, I kind of decided, you know, with the when the bottom fell out to buy some real estate, single family homes, right in an area in Denver, I'm a native, as I mentioned, where I felt like if there would be growth, from Denver that, you know, over time, these would probably be good, good investments to have. And that was in the Sloan's Lake area if people are familiar. And so I became, you know, a untrained landlord, as well as a business owner at the same time, all in one shot. So quick question. So when you did this transition out of the corporate world, into the entrepreneur going to do myself. Grant How many entrepreneur books did you read before you got started? Stephanie You know, I? I didn't read that many.  Grant Yeah, that's like I could tell you just jumped in and went after it. Right? You got going on. Stephanie I think also my my step up in that area was I'd see my dad growing up who had never, who had always had businesses and so to I never saw him work a nine to five job, you know, have a two week vacation or anything like that. So I had a very good example of what an entrepreneur looks like. And so that's probably why I didn't need to read books. I have since read a lot of books.  Grant But yeah, yeah. But you had a role model, you had a mentor to follow after. Alright, so you go through this journey, you run your real, or excuse me, your insurance agency for 16 years. What happened? Stephanie I mean, as time went on, there was you know, also some distaff dissatisfaction. Because you, you know, you really like your clients, and they're doing business because of you. But then there's this big, you know, corporation behind you, mine was Farmers Insurance, who, you know, ultimately makes the decisions based on, you know, the claims and the the rate changes and things like that. So that became kind of frustrating. But then also, you know, again, my dad was, you know, pretty. He passed away, actually, shortly after I started my agency, but I'm sorry, yeah, thank you. But I had, I remembered a lot of things as time went on. I was like, Oh, I remember when Dad said that. And one of the things he always said was, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And that was for me, that meant just, you know, don't continue, farmers was very big on, take a loan out, to keep running your visit business, make it bigger, make it better, all these things, where I just sort of directed my money in my growth into real estate, because I felt like it wasn't so attached to to the business. And I loved real estate. I didn't know much about it. I certainly wasn't very educated about it. Oh, I think it was 2016 I had gotten an invitation to a boot camp and about buying apartments, which I had always been curious about, oh, cool. Went into there. And that's where I first heard the term syndication. And I was I was just blown away, I'd never heard that I loved the idea of a group of people buying something that no one could do on their own. And I from that point on, I was all in there. I did about three years thing me maybe it was only No, I think it was only two years of education, which, you know, was an investment, but you come out of that bait being able to be very knowledgeable about commercial real estate, which is very different than residential real estate residential.  Grant So if I hear you, right, I think you said that this transition to real estate, it was a diversification strategy for you following your dad's counsel, right not to have all your eggs in one basket. You still had the insurance company at least for a while, right? And then then you started investing in the real estate, is that right?  Stephanie Yeah. i And well, I had all I had invested, you know, in the single family homes and they're, you know, through the last crash and then wanted to do the apartments and then in 2016, that really was probably, I mean, I kept running my agency obviously, until actually last year when I Um, my investing had my income from investing had exceeded my, my business income. So I was able to retire, or in my case, just do do a different career for a while. Grant I love that when I saw that in your profile, I thought that was the ultimate, which was to sort of break away. It's that, hey, I'm no longer just going to be a business sort of operator, right? I'm actually going to step aside and let let your income or your assets generate that income for you, right. It's the money's working for you. And I saw that in your notes too, which was a, you said some interesting about the way the wealthy do it, which is the wealthy have their money working for them? Was that always at the forefront of your mind? Or did you sort of discover that along the way?  Stephanie No, that's a that's a big, I think it was big, the aha moment for me. And how I describe it is that I believe most people, and I was one of those most people believed in an accumulation model of money, which meant for most people is I'm going to accumulate the money in my 401k. I never really, you know, went down that path from owning my own business, I wanted to accumulate my money in real estate. But yet my idea was the same, which is I'm going to buy this property and manage it for 30 years until the loan is paid off. And then I will live off of the rents or whatever at that time. But when I started raising money for the syndications, I started becoming friends and, you know, meeting really, very interesting, you know, wealthy people, and just notice that they were doing stuff differently than than I was, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But after a while of working with them, I realized that they look at their money as a good word is utilization. They're always using their money. They're using their money to give them cash flow. And there was kind of the light bulb that came on for me. Later on. You know, I started doing syndications in 2018, and I think it was the end of 2019 that I started to sell my properties one by one, and invest them in syndications. Because I realized I had these this great big chunk just sitting in and it's really not doing much as far as you know, cash flow, helping me out at all. Whereas, you know, if I just shifted my focus and where I put my money, the returns as far as cash flow, were really significant. Yeah, Major.  Grant Have you ever played that game called cashflow there? I've heard about the Robert Kiyosaki Robert Kiyosaki game. Yeah, I've never played it, you shouldn't play I have a feeling you do really well with it.  Stephanie Yeah.  Grant Excellent with cash flow is king, as you're as you're pointing out, and the ability to get that cash flow lined up and consistently look at money as a tool to deliver the cash flow is critical. So that 401k experience, I've had that same journey where I was putting money I was putting money in in a 401k. And then the first time the market in my career, you know, did this massive dive down, right, and I'm sitting there thinking, I know that there's someone on Wall Street's buying puts against my investment making a ton of money while I'm losing a ton, wait, who came up with this strategy, right? You know, also you could keep your you know, 2% Raise, it is it is a disservice to the working class for sure. So, did you did you ever get involved in the 401k strategy? Or, or did you ultimately just leave it wouldn't? What happened there?  Stephanie Eight, actually, I have my series six, when to be a n 63. So for the audience, that just means that I was registered to sell products, you know, mutual funds and things like that to my database of clients. I never really like to that I never really, I felt the variability and that the training that I was given never seemed to give me a lot of anxiety. And so I never really did much with that. And inevitably let those those licenses go. But though the 401k Actually, I'm in the process of writing a book and there's going to be there's one chapter that's dedicated to the 401k, which I do a great deal, you know of research on and you you pit. You know some really good points on on that. And but it's just letting people question it because there are so many things about the 401 K that are, you know, you're giving you're giving your money to someone else to watch. And they're not doing it for free. And financial institutions want to hold on to your money for as long as they can and give it back, as you know, little as they can. And so you're you're using your money to subsidize things that you probably don't even know your money's doing. And I know, these are hard things to come to in this day and age when it's just like, can I just give my money to this person and have him manage it? Or have the 401k make those decisions? Why do I have to be involved with everything, it really is a significant amount of money that you pay to these financial institutions. And you can do much better on your own. But I won't go into that. That's a whole nother discussion.  Grant That but that's your journey, though. I think your journey is you figured out Wait a minute, I can do something differently with this. And you took control of it right? You did the education you put in the work, you discovered cash flows. The secret to this, let my money work on just building even small incremental cash flow growth and how critical that is in the strategy. Stephanie One other point just quickly is I was watching something on TV last night, and there was several commercials that came on. And they were women. They were geared to women and there they were talking about, you know, women and finances are bad with finances. And the whole message in this commercial was save your money for retirement or whatever. And I was like, I want to just get out the message that it's not saving your money. It's investing your money and learn how to be a good investor, because those are the things that are going to allow you to retire early or retire in not a poverty situation. But in you know, invest and learn how to invest because it isn't as hard as people think it is, you know?  Grant Yeah, absolutely. I love that and are good. I understand. You're right. Did you say the messaging in that TV ad was that women are bad with finances? Is that what you say?  Stephanie Yeah, I think well, they were trying to you know, women were kind of trying to empower themselves by saying, I'm not bad with finances, even though you know, I've been told that women are bad with finances, but it seemed like the solution for them in that commercial was save. Save your money. You say? Like, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, good. Good. Debt should produce cashflow. Right. That's, that's actually that's actually the message right there. One of the things I noticed as I was looking at your background, and the things you've done, as you had made a comment if I if I've got this right. Grant Money myths, you talked about money myths, and I think you just touched on one of those. What other money myths? Have you learned that we hold on to that? Are these incorrect notions that actually hurt us financially? What have you found?  Stephanie There's one very significant one, which is people will say, well, the wealthy people, you know, I've talked to people and they'll be like, Oh, but the reason the people you work with have so much money is because they're willing to take these crazy risks with their money, and stuff like that high risks. That's that's why they got where they are, they are and I say actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of wealthy people invest in extremely conservative things. They, the other myth is, you know, put put your money into the stock market. Many people can't tell you in their mutual funds, what they're invested in, what even one company is that they're invested in, let alone who's who are the team members on that, you know, on board or who's the CEO of the company, they can't tell you anything. Whereas wealthy people they tend to invest if they do invest in businesses, they invest directly in a business, either for themselves or they understand the dynamics of the business and the business plan and they invest that way. If they invest in real estate, they largely do the syndications and they get to know the team that's running, running the syndication. They know what kind of experience they have, what kind of past returns they've done. They do their homework in that sense. But then once they've invested in the team, they tend to invest again and again. And these are very conservative things that they're investing in things that are tangible in value. That's another. That's right. Three things I'm hitting is wealthy people tend to invest in things that have tangible value, which means, you know, an apartment complex Well, let's say, for some reason, it's terribly mismanaged and it goes out of nobody wants to be in it anymore. Well, you still have the building and the land in which you can sell. So there's, there's tangible value there. Grant Okay, so the tangible piece, that's interesting, too, especially in today's world, where digital assets are becoming more and more of a thing, right. In fact, I saw recently, someone talking about digital real estate on one of the online ads, you know, doesn't feel tangible, right. Are all the NFT stuff going on? Right are the crypto so many intangibles today as well? It Do you have any position or thoughts when they do that?  Stephanie I don't because I guess I always take the line if I if I don't understand it, or if it's not something that I want, you know, I guess it comes down to really understanding it. I've had a lot of people explain it to me, but I still don't, you know, the ups and downs, you know, lately, it's been a pretty big crash, you know, people are saying that's a good thing. Okay, I still don't really understand it. And I know that they're planning on, you know, digitizing, then that's, that's probably, you know, not too far away in real estate, you know, 10, I would hope it's going to be 1015 years in the future. I don't know what that looks like. But that's definitely something in the future. I don't think that is wrong. And when I say that the wealthy people invest in, they probably do have some investments in cryptocurrency, but that's probably less than 5% of their portfolio. Great majority of what they're invested in, probably 30% Every year. If you go on to the name of this group is called Tiger 21. And it's, it's for wealthy, wealthy people, I think they have to show a net worth of at least five or $10 million to get in the group. But every year, by agreeing to be in this group, they agreed to release as a group, kind of a asset allocation of all of their investments, and every year, there doesn't change that much. And over 30% is in real estate.  Grant Really. Okay. All right. That's interesting. That's fascinating. One of the things that I noticed as I looked at it now Now the name your company, you're gonna have to help me because is it Erbe Wealth? This Erbe?  Stephanie Well, Erbe Wealth, okay, everybody. Well, thank you Erbe Wealth.  Grant Well, so I'm on your site, I was on your site. And I was checking out. This is really cool. erbewealth.com. And I went to the about page and told my listeners, you should check this out. Stephanie's got this thing called the 15% Plus community. Can you talk about that?  Stephanie Yeah, well, I mean, my partner and I started working together in 2018. And we both realized, as many successful pairings go is that he had some skills in in this in the certain areas, and I had skills in certain areas. And together, we have really done very well together, and we just closed on our 12th deal about two weeks ago. And every single deal that we put together has returned over 15%. But truthfully, every every one that we've done up to this point has returned over 20%. So the person designing my website said, I don't know you might want to just put that down to 15%. But every deal that we have done has had an annualized rate of return of over 20%. So if you're we, our goal is when we hold the money for three to four years, then we'll double your investment in that time. And we have we've done that successfully, and we have a system and we're will we're continuing with it.  Grant That's amazing and that's that's leveraging the syndicated real estate strategy.  Stephanie Yep, that's we buy apartment complexes and a very specific market in the country, we have a very specific buying strategy that allows us to get in and make money when we purchase it, purchase the property. And then we just find areas where there's there's been a lot of growth, and there's been a lot of rent growth and population growth. And I think if anyone's been listening to the news is we know that there's a housing shortage. So we buy in areas where, you know, there's a great deal of population growth and not enough housing,  Grant What is your what is your perfect client look like? What's their profile? Like? Stephanie I mean, I would like it to be more broad than than it is, it's usually, you know, well, to invest in our deals, you need to be accredited, which, you know, that means you need to have a net worth of a million, or you have a $200,000 salary. And so I love working with business owners, that's kind of my thought to I tend to attract a lot our business owners, because, well, one is, they're so busy trying to make their business work, and I'm talking more like smaller business owners, you know, and, you know, trying to manage their company, which they're very passionate about, but business owners tend to not really plan that well for their retirement, because they're just, you know, they're thinking all about this. Yeah. Run on the business constantly, right? Yep. Right. So those are, you know, those are the people I love to work with, just to you know, get them some cash flow, that that is nice, but as well as just having, you know, great returns that they don't have to manage, you know, at all.  Grant So, okay, very good. While you've been very generous with your time, can you give our listeners a place to go to to learn more about you? Yeah, to your website?  Stephanie Yep. That's my website, which is erbewealth.com. There's, I have I think, right now, it's not a lot, but it's about 15 articles that I've written, that just I try to really educate the newer investor that isn't familiar with this type of investing. And then there's a track record of of all of our Not, not cherry cherry pick deals closer, every single deal that we've done together, up until this point, and then you can join, you know, the list the email list to get notifications, I like to really educate my investors, as well as then they get the first, you know, chance of getting the new investment when it comes out. But air Bay, actually is the German word for legacy. And my dad was a second generation, my grandfather came over on the boat right from Germany. And he became an entrepreneur after he paid his dues and did everything he needed to do to become a citizen. And then my dad, you know, followed in his footsteps and was an entrepreneur.  Grant So I was gonna ask you about the backstory on that name. I was trying to figure out Erbe. What is that? Yes, that's awesome. I appreciate that.  Stephanie Yeah, not to my dad, who never you know, saw any of this, but definitely, it's because of him that this has happened. I can tell you have an awesome dad. Really cool.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, any final comments that you want to share? Stephanie No, no, but I'd say you know, just just check on my website. I'm trying to, like I said, working on a book and that that'll be my next. I'm hoping to have it done by the end of summer. So when when it's available, it will be available on my website as well.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, thank you so much for taking the time with us today, everyone.  Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out erbewealth.com.  

What's hot today might be out of the zeitgeist tomorrow. Are people still doing goat yoga? Are skinny jeans really the new mom jeans? There are so many trends to keep track of and so many “next big things,” it's impossible to know what's real and what's just a passing fad. For a business, it's important to understand the distinction, and it's even more important to have products that will thrive regardless of the different cycles your industry will run through. Lopa van der Mersch says she has that kind of product with her company, Rasa, which makes a coffee alternative with adaptogen blends. Lopa has a fascinating story, including inadvertently entering into a cult, navigating tricky co-founder relationships, and building up a business to more than $2M in revenue all from her garage.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Lopa explains why she believes that her product will be a game-changer regardless of societal trends, and she breaks down how to spot something phony or bad for you, whether it's in a product or even in a partner or personal relationship. Enjoy this episode! Main Takeaways:Finding the Right Match: When partnering with a co-founder, especially one who is a close friend, some things you should consider are their skills and their ability to resolve conflicts. Ask yourself would you hire this person to do this job if they were not your friend? And think back to how you have handled conflicts with each other in the past. If you are comfortable with the answers to those questions, you can feel more confident in that person as a partner.Culture Shock: Growth in any industry is related to what is happening in common culture. When something is trending, a corresponding industry will rise. Today's society is focused on health and wellness more than in the past, so companies that deal with products in that space are on the rise. But to stay solvent even when the trends change, companies need to ensure that they have products that are worth something and add to a person's life regardless of whether it's trendy or not.Let It Come, But Also Go After It: Striking the right balance between organic growth and focusing energy and money into specific channels is difficult. The key is to make sure that you are diversifying your efforts wherever you choose to try to gain attention. Play with the levers of what's working in one area, but continue to invest elsewhere so that when one thing begins to fail, you have other options. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Lopa van der Mersch who currently serves as the founder and CEO of Rasa. Lopa, welcome.Lopa:Hi, great to be here. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you on. So your history as we talked about before the show started is very intriguing and I think our guests would love to kind of start there and hear a bit about your background, childhood, all of the things about Lopa.Lopa:All right. Well, let's see how long we have. So it's all a question of where do I start, right? I mean where do we plug in? But I will say I think a good place to plug is around when I was 16, I first heard the word enlightenment, I don't even remember in what context and I was like, that. I want that, whatever that is. And I started reading spiritual books on Taoism and Buddhism and I went from being this incredibly miserable teenager, like the most, like special. I know like everybody's miserable as a teenager, but I was extra. I'm extra about everything. And then I kind of went through this awakening process as I discovered this other dimension to life and I was just hungry and I was positive and I saw beauty everywhere and it was great.Lopa:I started getting into yoga and I kept on finding myself wanting a deeper and deeper relationship with a teacher. And then I did find a guru, like a real guru from a lineage in India and studied with him for a long time and learned a tremendous amount. Spirituality was a huge focus of my life. I've probably done six months of retreats over the years. And for a while three to four hours of meditation practice a day and I was hardcore. And at some point in there, I started to sort of question the navel gazing nature of it all and was like, what else can I give to the world? And what else can I bring to the world? And through serendipity in many ways, I found a job in the bio char industry.Lopa:And for those who aren't familiar, bio char is short for biological charcoal. It's charcoal that you add to soil to both sequester carbon and improve soil quality. And I helped co-found two businesses there. I worked for Richard Branson's Carbon War Room while I was there. I spoke at TEDx. It was like I was in the right place at the right time in an industry that was really growing specifically for its focus on being a potential solution for climate change. And then after, I don't know, five years of eating, breathing, sleeping, sweating bio char, and then practicing and doing retreats when I could and all of that, I left that context and went on and around the world trip with my now husband and just at the very end of that trip, we inadvertently as always happens, got into a cult. And no one knows you're getting into a cult when you're getting into a cult. Nobody's like-Stephanie:Okay, how do I even know if I'm not in one right now then?Lopa:It's a great question. So there's sort of two distinctions of cults. We are all in a certain cult in terms of modern society, in terms of our involvement with media and the way that it shapes the way that we think. All of that could be considered a cult. And depending on how you look or who you talk to, that could be seen as a benign cult or a destructive cult. Many religions are benign cults. But in this context we were in what could be considered a destructive cult or another framing that they use in cult academia is high demand group. And so one of the ways that you can assess if am I in a cult kind of situation, how much demand is there for your time, for your attention, for your devotion, for your money? And in this context, we were pretty much 100% of our time was focused on this cult. My husband was working at the time and found it incredibly hard to maintain his job and all of his duties in the cult context.Stephanie:How did you inadvertently get into it? Did you meet one person and they're like there's this cool thing, it kind of sounds like this, and it's just like a community of just like besties. And then you get in there and it just turns into more and more and more work, or what does that look like?Lopa:Yeah. Yeah, it's always gradations. So we met somebody and she was talking about her experiences with this woman. And often people don't think of women as having that, but it usually there's some kind of narcissistic component to any cult dynamic. Not necessarily though. And I will also say too, just because I think it's important to understand, you can be in a cult of two and another way to look at that is an abusive relationship. So that would be considered like the smallest size of a cult and then bigger ones are what we normally think of when we think of cults. So if you're in a relationship and you're like am I in a cult of two, look at how much demand is on your time and how much are they trying to limit the world around you?Lopa:So yeah, we met this woman, she was telling me about her experiences and they were amazing and mystical and psychedelic in many ways. And I was like, all right, this sounds like what I want. Yeah. I want that magic. I want that other worldliness. And so we went to go see her and she's a very powerful, very charismatic woman and there's real great spiritual teachings in there too. Nobody joins a cult just because they're like, oh, I want to get abused. That sounds great. There's something that draws them in. And usually it's a trauma bond that keeps people in because there's like, oh, today it's a little bit of love and tomorrow I'm going to humiliate you and today, you're the best thing ever. And tomorrow I'm going to question every aspect of your sense of self.Lopa:So it started as this charismatic, interesting, powerful woman who had a lot of energy. I did have psychedelic experiences around her. Cool. That's fun. Without any drugs and it's the context there. And there are some things that I probably should have been like um, she gravels and hisses and speaks in tongues and stuff.Stephanie:A little off putting.Lopa:Yeah, yeah. But I was like, well, everybody around her kind of did it. And so that normalized it and was like, oh, well maybe I just don't get it. And maybe okay, if I start doing that, then I'll be more spiritual too. And all that kind of stuff. And with almost any cult or context, it gets more and more insane literally. It's like an onion. The outer layers and people who just come to a class here and there, they might be like, she's amazing. What are you even talking about? This is not a cult.Lopa:And then as you get deeper and deeper in and closer into that kind of inner circle, that's where things like some of her like... Sorry, I'll go back and say for the first six months or so, it was like bliss. It was amazing. It was just awesome. And I felt so seen and so loved and all of that. And then after some time is when, and in spiritual contexts, you're trying in some way to break your ego down. And so the eco breaking down a scene in this context of like, well, I need this and so I'm being humbled.Stephanie:Yeah, you need that abuse and ripping apart every piece of need because I [inaudible] and I need to be separate from that.Lopa:Exactly. Exactly. So this is part of the growth and I just have to sustain it and all of that, and it can be tricky to assess if that is real, is it really actually good? And you do need to be cut down in some ways or we all have times in our lives where somebody gives us a reflection that we really don't like but we really fricking need. And that can really hurt to let it in. I think a prime present tense example is people beginning to see the embedded racism in their system for white people and I think that's a reflection that none of us really want to hold, but we have to. It's important to hold and that's a big ego, like we have to let the knife go in on that one, for example.Lopa:But then in these more kind of abusive context, it's like you have to look very closely at what is this person's motive? Do they really feel like it's coming from I am actually trying to help you in some way. And she always said that she was and this was all for us and all for love and all of that. And when it came down to it, some of the things that really kind of set us off towards the end was just realizing how incredibly unhumble she was and how unwilling to receive feedback or any kind of bi-directional. She gives a lot of feedback in our direction. And then we're like, are you kind of sitting on a pedestal and then freaks out. And so those were some of our cues. And sometimes it is, you find just this tiny little cue, and then that's the thread that lets it all kind of break down and then you realize, whoa, wait a second, what are we doing? Where are we? Why are we prioritizing every minute of our lives around this person?Stephanie:Wow. Can you get out? Because I always hear when you're in-Lopa:It's hard.Stephanie:It's hard to get out. So what does it look like you trying to get out of that?Lopa:Yeah. I mean, it's different for every person. For us, it was an outside reflection from somebody who was a relative stranger who brought up. He was like, I'm sure she's a really beautiful person, but I see some red flags and I'm just a little bit concerned and then gave some examples of other teachers who were very humble. And I don't know if he specifically chose these teachers because they're very humble or what, but it was a strange experience. My husband and I were both on the phone with him at the time. When we got off the phone, it literally felt like a bubble popped.Stephanie:Wow.Lopa:We were, wow. Okay, something changed. And we felt kind of naked and exposed. And then we were like oh, we just need to give her some feedback. She's kind of lost her humility and she's like, I am that, I am everything. And so we just need to sort of remind her of her humanity a little bit, right, because we're all humans. And there was a process of, we gave that piece of feedback and then over the next three weeks, there were 3000 emails sent between the group. I went back and looked at my gmail and it was like 3006 or something, crazy. 3006 or something absurd. I'm trying to [inaudible] language out of my vocabulary. And my husband really saw it quickly and was out and for me, it took a little bit more time where I was kind of questioning myself, oh, maybe she is the real deal and I just can't take it and all of that.Lopa:And therapy was a really big part of the healing and the reconciliation and finding my core sense of self again, which got adjusted over the course of this whole time. It was like, somebody questions your motive once and you're like, oh no, that's not where I'm coming from. And then they do it again and you're like, what do you mean? And then they keep doing it and keep doing it. And you move a little bit off of your center over and over because you start to question yourself, well, maybe I am this kind of showy person and you start to believe that. And that's gaslighting and that's how that happens. So for me, it was a process of kind of reexamining all of my beliefs and all of the dogmas that I'd picked up in the course of my life and all of these different things to get back to kind of what feels like a core solid sense of self and a lot of therapy.Stephanie:Wow. That's intense. Okay. So you get out of this cult and then what happens after that?Lopa:Yes. Well that year was a doozy. I now call it my own personal 2020. Now that we've had 2020, I'm like, oh, that was my 2015 because yeah, I left the cult, 3000 emails, I had an emergency back surgery while I was pregnant, I moved across the country a week later, lost a family member, had an emergency cesarean birth that was traumatic, I had a huge falling out with my family. I was fried. And so Rasa actually really came out of necessity. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was fried and I was like, I need something to help me keep going because now I had a baby waking me up, really precious little munchkin. And I tried coffee. I've never been a big coffee drinker because it's a little too much for my system. I tried coffee and was like, whoa, okay, irritability, jitters, panic attacks, sleep is even more messed up. No. This is a hard no.Lopa:And so I looked at all the coffee alternatives out there and tried them all. And I was like, really? This is it? Come on, we can do better, right? And I've been a big herb person, just an enthusiast. I love herbs. I've always had lots of jars of herbs in my kitchen and stuff like that. And I was like, can't we just put a bunch of really good herbs in there? And then I started to really think about here, looking at coffee in this coffee cup that people just don't even really question, this ritual of drinking coffee, it's even built into so many aspects of our culture in terms of don't talk to me until I've had my second cup of coffee kind of stuff.Stephanie:Community stuff like let's meet up for coffee.Lopa:Yes, totally, totally. People talking about how coffee is their personality. And I started being like, wow, this is something that people often actually used to override their body signals. So like their body's like, I'm tired. The answer is not rest or downshift a little bit or maybe I need a little time in nature or anything like that. The answer is often coffee.Stephanie:Yeah.Lopa:Coffee is the tool of a society that does not give two shits about anything except for your productivity in a way. And we buy into that and we do that. And I say this also in the context of not saying that I'm sure a lot of people listening, entrepreneurs, people out there in the world are like, no, you do not blah, blah, blah, my cup of coffee. I understand that. I really get it. It's not that coffee is bad or coffee is the devil. It's about how you're relating to it. Just like how you're relating to anything. Like a glass of wine with dinner is not a bad thing. It's a beverage, but if you have a real dependency on that, and that is something that you really need and you have two or three or four, it's all about right relationship fundamentally. So yeah, I started looking at that and I was like, wow, everybody's just drinking coffee, coffee jacks up your central nervous system. It causes a cortisol flood from your adrenals.Lopa:So it's literally triggering a stress response which is part of why you feel so amazing. And because the cortisol is there to help you be able to beat the tiger or run away from the tiger or whatever. And I was like, wow, that doesn't necessarily put us into our best selves. When I am revved up, I'm not necessarily kind of grounded in my best decision-making, my cognitive executive function is not operating from that wide spacious perspective. And so I was like, all right, what if we, and then there was this other kind of aha about coffee is also one of the few accepted bitter tastes in our culture.Lopa:We don't tend to love bitter in our society, but coffee is super bitter. And so as chocolate is the other one. And I was like, so there's a bunch of amazing herbs out there. Some of them taste kind of like crap, but if you stick them into this like rich, robust cup and with other things that are kind of masking the taste, you can actually get people to drink something that's going to be incredibly healthy for them every single day and is actually going to help them regulate their stress response.Lopa:And so that's where at that point, I started working with a herbalist. I love herbs and there's a bit of a trend out there of people just being like, oh, there's all these trendy things out there, let's just go ahead and throw them into a bag and sell them. And herbalism is a very, very long standing tradition. That's the original medicine, the people's medicine and there's a lot of science in there too. And so I think it's really important. It's very different to have a herbalist formulated product versus trendy things in a bag products. And so I worked with a herbalist and they actually did the formula. And so that was five years ago. We were kind of in beta for roughly two years. And then we hard launched in April of 2018 and now I am founder and CEO of a 20-person business and things are going great.Stephanie:Wow. That's amazing. So when thinking about formulating the product, did you go into it already knowing I want to have for sure these things in it, or did you really just relinquish control and just say, you tell me, here's maybe the benefits that I want to see or I want it to taste maybe a little bit bitter or not at all? How did that relationship go about?Lopa:With that original relationships, so that was my original co-founder, who was a very, very dear friend and now has a royalty on her formula and we bought her out. We didn't bring out the best in each other in a business context. So that's really good, if you're going to start a business with a close friend, you really want to look at them from the angle of would I hire this person to do these things? And have I ever gotten into significant conflict with this person and how did we do? And because as soon as you're dealing with money, it becomes almost like a marriage, it's way intense. And just our friction didn't quite work, but so she had these herbs that she was already working with. Lopa:And I made suggestions, I was like, I think we should add this. And I think none of them ended up in the final formula, but I was like, it needs to taste good. It needs to be really functional. It needs to have an energy component. It doesn't have to match coffee because coffee, I think is an unsustainable energy spike. But it does need to give people some kind of lift and I wanted it to be gluten-free, have no natural flavors, anything like that. So it's just herbs. And she went to town, we now have a herbalist on staff who is a clinical herbalist and he has reformulated that same formulation probably 40 times or something. And some of that is we've done some major reformulations to just continue to improve the taste and continue to improve the functionality. And then sometimes there's like, oh, this herb has a sustainability consideration and so we're going to swap that out and, oh, we're going to change it to a different source.Lopa:And then that source has a different taste. And now we have to adjust everything. But we actually taste every single batch of herbs and reformulate every single time based on the strength of the harvest of the herbs because you're always adjusting for climate and things that are totally out of our control and we want to have a consistent taste.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. So the one thing I want to talk about too, and understand more is the industry as a whole around adaptogens because I feel like that word now it seems like it's on every product. And sometimes I'm like, well, how do I know what an adaptogen is? Is it real? Is it not? Because it seems like a trendy thing. And how did you think about that when entering into this industry?Lopa:Yes. Oh man, don't get me started. So first, how do you know what an adaptogen is? And is it real? So these are herbs that have been used for thousands of years in traditional context, in [inaudible], in Chinese medicine. And then in the 1940s, a Russian scientist named Nicola Lazaroff, there we go, thank you. He was basically tasked with giving Russian super soldiers and athletes an edge without a crash. And so he went to work studying all sorts of substances, including herbs and fell on these types of herbs, and he was like, oh, wait a second. This does give them the edge. They can go longer, harder, faster, more, and then they don't have a crash after the fact which is what happens with stimulants. And that's the issue with coffee is you get that crash in the afternoon because it's a kind of an unsustainable lift.Lopa:And so he initially started working with eleuthero which was the original adaptogen. And there are over 3000 studies on eleuthero, it's one of the most studied herbs and all through his research. And that term was coined, I believe, in the early 1950s. And so in order to be called an adaptogen, a herb needs to, we call it the four Ns, it needs to have a normalizing effect on the body. So it helps balance, helps you find homeostasis against environmental, physical, emotional, mental factors, all kinds of stress. It needs to be non-toxic in normal therapeutic doses. So it has to be basically safe. It's not going to, basically safe for most people. It needs to be nonspecific in terms of, there are many herbs where this herb is very good for the liver or this herb is very good for the blood.Lopa:These are herbs that work systemically and holistically in the whole body. And then that relates specifically to number four which is neuro-endocrine. It needs to have an impact on your neuroendocrine system which is your nervous system and your endocrine system coming together. And both of those, I want to go a little bit into the science, but so you have two main pathways that your body uses to communicate that you're under stress which is your hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis and your sympathoadrenal system, hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis is HPA. And the HPA axis is how your hormones tell your adrenals that there's a stress issue. And then your SAS is neuro-transmitters. And these herbs strengthened those two systems, literally like exercise. So they say that it mimics stress. But it's actually in a good way.Lopa:It's a eustressor. So it's actually like exercise is stressful for our bodies but it's in a good way, because we're getting stronger, we're getting more resilience, all of that, we're getting more flexible. And so adaptogens are literally doing that to your body's stress response system. So they have to have that neuro-endocrine impact as well. And this is also really interesting, just seeing adaptogens trending so much, many companies out there, I think, do not understand that there is a scientific criteria. It's not a marketing term. And there's actually a pretty small class of herbs that are scientifically substantiated as being adaptogens.Stephanie:Yeah, I was going to ask like how many are out there that have that claim against them?Lopa:Yeah. So it depends on who you talk to and who you look at. And we're actually working on coming out with a whole here is the definitive adaptogen guide. Here's what actually has the scientific backing. Here's why we chose these particular herbs based on these scientists and based on what we know and here's the list and here's what gets adaptogen washed. And this is a term that we've coined adaptogen washing where somebody calls something an adaptogens and it's not. So there's about, I think it's 39. And that number is changing based on the science. Sometimes they'll do a few more research studies and be like, oh, actually this one drops off the list or they do a few more research and they're like, okay, this one's definitely on the list. But depending on which scientist you talk to, there's either nine or 12 definitive adaptogens and then roughly 20 to 25 other probable adaptogens or secondary adaptogens.Lopa:And to be generous to the industry, we call anything that is probable, possible, secondary or primary an adaptogen. But many things that we see get mislabeled as adaptogens out there are Chaga is not an adaptogen, lion's mane, all the functional mushrooms, people are like, functional mushrooms are adaptogens. Nope, there's just two. And that is cordyceps and Lingzhi.Stephanie:I love Lingzhi.Lopa:Yeah, turmeric is not an adaptogen. Actually there is one other mushroom that's very little known called [inaudible], I think. But yeah, Chaga is not an adaptogen, lion's mane, turmeric. I've heard Matcha be called an adaptogen, [inaudible]. People just kind of throw it on anything. And this is an interesting case of an industry growing because we're overstressed as a culture. And this was going back to one of your questions about did we know what we wanted to put in that cup? And were we aware of that? We want to put the best stuff ever in a cup and adaptogens are the best stuff ever especially as a superior way to stimulate yourself that's more sustainable. And I believe that they're trending because people need them. That's what's happening right now. And there's a pretty uneducated consumer base.Lopa:And so there's a lot of knowledge to understand. And adaptogens tend to grow in really extreme environments which is why they're expensive. They grow on the tops of mountains, in desert, in these kinds of contexts. And it can be hard to actually get a full harvest out of them in the same way as like you could for other herbs.Stephanie:There's definitely a lot of education needed around this space. And it seems like so many new things are popping up. I mean, I was just at brunch the other day where my friends were talking about Ayurvedic diets and oils to use. And I mean, it was so much, I probably was like oh my gosh, I don't even know how to consume all the things you're telling me because it feels like everything I'm doing, I just never knew about any of this. Well, the same thing with adaptogens and understanding what that is. And there's a whole revolution, I think, of this new kind of nutrition and dieting and way of thinking that is going to take some time to educate the consumers on what that actually is and who's a phony and who's real and what's an actual real product or not.Lopa:Yeah. And what's actually going to have an impact. It wouldn't be such a problem, I think to have adaptogen washing if it didn't like also devalue the herb itself. And to another point, if I gave you something and was like, this has CBD and it doesn't have CBD, you'd be like, what the heck? And some people do call CBD an adaptogen, it's not, and that doesn't make those herbs any less amazing. Just don't mislabel them.Stephanie:Yeah, just use the right words.Lopa:Yeah.Stephanie:So yeah. I completely agree. So when you're starting this company, a lot of founders start out and they're really excited. And then sometimes they're kind of like how's this going? Is this my thing? Get a little distracted, and I want to kind of hear how your journey went with getting really excited about this, knowing you had a solution to something, what did that look like after you had landed on, I want to start this company? Was there any hesitation ever or wondering is this even my thing?Lopa:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty normal. I hope to normalize that for people like, I've definitely had entrepreneurs come to me and be like, I'm not sure if I want to do this anymore and I'm like, that's okay. You'll have those days. It's really hard to create something. And yeah, I mean, my trajectory, let's see, that first two years there was a lot, well, the co-founder conflict really kind of clouded, yeah, my situation for a little bit. And so I was like, well, maybe I should do something else. And maybe I should focus on other things. And I just kind of kept coming back to this and I just kept being like, this is a good idea and I feel like it needs to happen. And I couldn't believe that there wasn't something like this out there. And then, I mean, it's been stressful.Lopa:It is a lot of work and learning how to run a business while running a business is hard. If I were to do this all again, I'd be like, oh, wow, this is going to be a lot easier going forward. I've been the co-founder in a few businesses, but it's very, very different to be actually at the helm. And the buck stops at you kind of thing. And yeah, work-life balance has been tricky. I have two kids now. I actually hard launched Rasa when my second son was four weeks old. Tough planning. It didn't quite go to plan as I'd hoped. And there's definitely a sense of the business would take as much energy as I would possibly give it. My kids would take as much energy as I would possibly give them. And so there's this feeling of, it's never quite enough.Stephanie:The mom guilt. The mom guilt is so real. I feel that [inaudible], yeah, I'm in the house recording. My three kids are usually on the other side of the door and I'll just be like should I be out there with them and having to be like, no, boundaries. Most people, well, not now, but used to go to an office and be away and that's okay. You got work to do. And yeah, work-life balance is definitely a struggle especially working at home now in the same presence as kids and family members and pets and all of that.Lopa:Yeah. We actually originally made the Rasa headquarters out of our garage so that I could be closer to my kids. I just wanted to be able to breastfeed for a bit, put the baby down to a nap, come back. And so we were in my garage until last September. It worked great for that time. And I was like, well, we're running a $2 million business out of my garage. This is solid, it's a small garage. It's not like a big old thing. But it was my garage. We had a storage unit in the back. We had a shipping container in our driveway. We had a shed, it was in all of our basements, pretty much every room had something Rasa-related. And so I was like, all right, we got to get out of here.Stephanie:Yeah. Your neighbors are like, what's this girl doing over there?Lopa:I know. They were like, this zoning. It was not up to code, but we're out now. So forgiveness rather than permission.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah, I agree. So I want to talk a bit about Amazon too because I saw that you were part of the Launchpad program, what do you call it? And I haven't had anyone on the show at least that I know of who's been a part of that. So I want to hear about your experience being on that and spreading the word about Rasa and getting in front of new customers and just being on Amazon in general.Lopa:Yeah. I mean, Amazon in general, Amazon has been a really solid channel for us, which is part of why we went with the Launchpad program. It's been just very consistent. The growth has been pretty steady and predictable. The customers there have been great too. We have some really consistent customer retention on Amazon which I think is not what we really expected. We have a lot of subscribers there. And so we were on the Launchpad program for about a year. We actually are just in the process of pulling out of it. They do take a 5% cut and basically, I think if you have somebody on the team who's really managing it closely and is really taking advantage of every single opportunity that they have, I think it's probably a really good program. We did not have that.Stephanie:What are the opportunities that they provide within that program?Lopa:Yeah, there's a lot of promotional potential. Some of those come with additional revenue cut. Some of those just require additional marketing planning and that sort of thing. And I'll say we have tended to... We actually for about the last year have really under indexed on Amazon. I think we could have autopiloted it. And we were like, oh, well Launchpad will be good and blah, blah, blah. So we may actually go back to the Launchpad program once we have our Amazon growth strategy a little bit more, but a lot of promotional opportunities, get on the front page. You get chances to do extra deals. They have the lightning deals and I don't manage the Amazon super closely. So our Amazon guy could tell you a little bit more, but yeah, a lot of emails came through where I was like, huh, we should probably do that, but we don't really have time. We don't really have the marketing bandwidth.Lopa:And I think now I look back and we're like, well, we want that 5% margin back. We can put that into ad spend. And I think that that's going to be a better use of that capital at this time. And if we had actually been taking advantage of all those emails that came through, you can get a dedicated account manager who will help audit your ad spend and all that stuff. If we were doing that, I think it would have been a great program for us. And it was positive, we've seen growth, but not quite enough to warrant 5% on every bag.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. That's quite a hefty margin to take out. For them to do-Lopa:On top of their original 30%, yeah.Stephanie:Ooh, that's a lot. So you pulled back to focus more on ad spend. I mean, what kind of channels were you relying on to get the word out? Because even though it is a big trend around this industry, I still feel like it's pretty niche to get in front of the right people who understand it and are ready to buy around this. I think it might be a little harder of a sell to get in front of someone who has to do the research like me to be like, well, what is an adaptogen? Is a good for me? And how did you go about finding the right people in the platform that'll work for you?Lopa:Yeah, well, we're really going after the coffee market and adaptogens are the way that we're doing that. So adaptogens right now, it's a $25 billion industry, but most of that's in Asia and because they have a cultural context around using these herbs in daily life that we just don't have. And so we are actually bringing a cultural context for these herbs through the coffee ritual and coffees is a $465 billion market. So we like that TAM a lot better. So that said, most of our customers are actually coming to us for a coffee alternative and then they're like, oh, it actually supplies all these benefits as well. And I think that's one of the things that we've been kind of working on and finding our positioning and our messaging in terms of yes, it's a beverage and it's delicious and it's intended to replace entirely or replace partially your coffee ritual.Lopa:But then it also has all these ancillary benefits, not ancillary. I mean, we get incredible customer reviews that say that it's just life changing. And so I think there's a way, and I think that's part of why we get an amazing long tail retention on our customers because we're delivering on more than they expected in terms of the impact. But most of our customers, we've been pretty heavily focused on Facebook. That's been our major scaling channel and that's a really interesting context right now because the iOS 14 change. And I think also with the pandemic ending, the buying patterns ending we hope, the buying patterns are shifting a bit as well. And so people are going back to their third spaces. They're going back out in the world a bit more.Lopa:And CACs are only going up. They're not coming down ever. So we sort of had a little... Facebook's been amazing for us. And I have had this little bug in the back of my head for like two years where I've been like we can't put all our eggs in this basket. We had one ad that, I mean, I think this one particular ad had done a million dollars in revenue for us or something. And it was based on something, it was a relevancy score. So in Facebook, they were categorizing by relevancy and it had a 10 out of 10 relevancy and we were like we could just dump money into it and it would just keep returning money. And it was amazing. And then they dropped the relevancy score as a factor all in their algorithm. And it was like our cash cow has died. It just suddenly, because the way the algorithm was prioritizing, it just didn't deliver in the same way. And we were like, wow, we're at the helm or we're at the whim of something that we have very little control over.Lopa:And so we're starting a little bit of a channel diversification strategy just to have a little bit more health in terms of what we're doing in the business.Stephanie:So many companies start out that way that I can think of and I think it's perfectly okay to rely on one channel. I mean, I've talked to a couple where they're like in chat within Instagram DMs, or Facebook chat, that's where our company's at. And I mean, we kind of went through that at mission too. We were very reliant on media and we became the top on there. That was where our business model was headed until one day they made a few changes and we're like, whoa, that just disrupted our entire business. Why are we relying on someone else's platform? We need to get off here and diversify. What kind of channels are you trying out now? And how did that make you rethink, relying on any platform in general?Lopa:Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. If you're diversified, then you have a little bit of a hedge. And so if something changes, you're like, cool, we're going to just flex the lever a little bit more over here. So we've been very under-indexed on B2B wholesale in general. We've never had a salesperson and we just considered it part of customer care. And if somebody came to us and was like, we'd like to order for our store, we'd be great. And that was kind of it. And so now just knowing that you can really scale a business that way, too. We're going to be investing in that a bit more. So we're in like, I don't know something like 600 retail stores at this point and-Lopa:So yeah, wholesale, actually investing in growth on Amazon, PR is something that we've also done almost none of. So actually working to in-house PR, I have come to kind of think of PR agencies as black holes where money goes to die. So I'm really keen on in-housing it. And influencers is also something that we've been very under-indexed on, just haven't put anything towards and it's all been organic, which is great. And we've had a lot of organic movement in all these things, but there's a difference between letting it come to you versus like, okay, now we're going to really focus on this. And then we have some international opportunities opening up as well.Stephanie:Cool. That's amazing. All right. So I know we're getting short on time and I do want to talk about crowdfunding and I know you mentioned you were very excited about that. So I want to dive into why are you guys crowdfunding? Why do you choose that approach? And you also mentioned innovative marketing ideas around that so. I want to hear all the things.Lopa:Yes. Yes. So DTC has allowed this new level of customer relationships and we have a lot of intimacy all across our communications and people always tell us they feel like they're talking to a friend instead of a company. And we love that and incredible brand love as well. And we feel like the logical next step of that is becoming crowdfunded or community-owned. And we've had lots of investors come and knock on our door and be very interested in what we've done and what we've been able to build, bootstrapped especially for a CPG business. And the thing that just kind of keeps coming up and especially for VCs, VCs are very extractive capital. And we actually talk about it internally. Like VCs are the coffee of money.Lopa:Coffee is an extractive energy source for your body. VCs are an energy extractive source of money for your business. And we do a lot of things differently. In our business, our culture is, I think pretty remarkable. We're doing a lot around sustainability. There's a lot of things where we're prioritizing a triple bottom line instead of a bottom line, just the bottom line. And we get nervous about the idea of getting into a relationship with somebody who's like, well, yeah, you can't treat your employees that way and you can't do this and that.Stephanie:You've got to return the fund to be worth it to me.Lopa:Exactly. Exactly. And we know that our customers love the way that we do things and want us to be more and more that way. So we're very excited about that and they just changed the regulations so that you can raise 5 million via crowdfunding instead of just one per year. And so we're very excited about, we're going to be hopefully one of the first to actually close a $5 million round crowdfunding. And some of it, we've just realized like damn, these businesses can be real capital intensive. And we're trying to do this with capital constraints which means people constraints and bandwidth constraints. And then we're trying to do a very high integrity product with a lot of value in the product and compostable packaging and just fair trade as much as we can all across the business and treating our employees really well.Lopa:And all of these different things that just does cost money, cost more. And then we're like, well, we want to grow as well. We want to invest in growth. So we've been basically break even except for investment in growth for a while. And we were like, if we had more capital to invest in growth, we know that the business is financially sustainable and really solid. And so if we just can get that growth capital and so that's basically why we're doing it. And when you're building a brand that people love, going into some of our marketing strategies around this, when you're building a brand that people really love, and then they're also becoming owners of that brand, I think there's a big question about what's secret, and what's not secret.Lopa:And there's a lot of secrecy in the CPG world and in business in general. And we are seeing that the more transparent we are, the more our customers just eat it up. And they love the behind the scenes about the business. And they love just knowing about why we made a certain change in our packaging and stuff like that. That's where we get the most responses. It's kind of crazy. And so we are shifting towards being more and more open about margins, our run rate and including people in these details allows them to be included in this incredible journey of launching this product. And so we're going to be doing a lot more around this. We're kind of working on building the internal content engine to be able to just be a more and more transparent and share more and more about what it takes to do this and the hard decisions and the hard moments where I'm like, oh my God, my kids and this and the business and all that stuff.Lopa:But our customer reviews are incredible, so incredible. We have to be editing them for the FDA. We've had people say that they had a Rasa baby, it's made them more patient with their partners and their kids and all that. And that's why we got into plant medicine. We knew the power of these things. And so I think crowdfunding is a way of getting people invested in the business and having the business actually be like herbs were originally the medicine for the people and now it's going to be a business about herbs for the people as well. And so it just feels like it's really perfectly aligned.Stephanie:I love that. I mean, I think the idea too around transparency, not only does that give your customers things to look at and engage with you, but I think it also invites help too. If someone sees oh, your margins are around this. Let me come in and help you because I think maybe in the CPG industry, maybe they should be around here. I've got this idea around logistics that might help you enhance that. So I think the more you share, the more other people might come in and be able to actually help and want to lift everyone up in the process.Lopa:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think in the industry, that is really valuable. Sometimes there's always a question of how much feedback you get from where. And sometimes you're like, wow, that's a lot of people that want to help and I don't really know what they're doing.Lopa:But I mean, that said, we listen to every piece of feedback too. And I think going back to the cult conversation a little bit, when you get feedback that you don't like, you have to look at it and say like, okay, if 1% of this is true, what part would be true? And then look at that. And that's one of the nice things too about DTC is that we have been able to actually iterate our products very quickly based on customer feedback. And I think having more transparency also means that we're going to be able to crowdsource product ideas and reformulate things to match people's needs more and stuff like that which we're really excited about.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Super exciting. All right. Let's do a quick lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Lopa:Yes.Stephanie:All right. What's your favorite Rasa drink to enjoy in the morning?Lopa:Super Happy Sunshine.Stephanie:Okay. Awesome. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Lopa:It would be about cultivating energy intelligence, emotional intelligence but energy intelligence. Yeah. And my first guest is a great question. I have not even thought about that. I mean, if I could just wave a magic wand, I would actually have Brené Brown because we don't think of the way that we hold ourselves in our vulnerability as being actually kinks on our energy. And I think that her work around vulnerability and shame is actually very energy liberating.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I love her. What's up next on your reading list or your podcasts list?Lopa:Oh man. I have such a long list. I'm in the middle of The hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz. And I'm also reading a book about the ancient Indian martial arts that I practice called [inaudible] and I'm in the middle of like five books right now. Another great one, oh, just Hunt, Gather, Parent.Stephanie:Oh, I'm reading that now.Lopa:It's so good.Stephanie:So good. Yeah.Lopa:Oh my God, so good.Stephanie:It makes you-Lopa:And it's working.Stephanie:[inaudible] parenting in general like oh, why are we basing our parenting advice off? What does she say? The past 100 years or something when there's time-tested things that work for thousands of years that we can tap into and around the stress of the parenting right now is only on essentially the mom or mom and dad where we're doing the same work that used to be 15 people, grandparents, cousins, aunts, and uncles. And I'm like, there's going to be a shift though. I think it's going to start heading in that direction again.Lopa:Yeah, I think so too. And on the podcast, Fred, I'll say, I actually was looking at your list of podcasts and I was like, oh my God, I need to be listening to all of these. So well done. I love business-Stephanie:[inaudible] podcast, hey. I love that. Yeah, check them out. They're good ones. Launching new ones all the time too. And the last one, what is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? It can be business, personal or from the cult, whatever comes to mind.Lopa:Best piece of advice I've ever gotten. Lopa:What comes up is that purpose is a red herring and that so many of us, I think in this, it may be a little bit less for your audience. But I think that this quest for what am I supposed to do and what is my purpose? And I can only really do something once I have my purpose. The advice was stop wallowing and trying to find your purpose and do something. And you will find your purpose in the process of acting. You will find the things that don't feel aligned and then you'll adjust. And so it's about help someone and help something and you'll find purpose in the process of doing.Stephanie:That's amazing advice. And that's actually perfect for our audience right now. I mean, people trying to start businesses and I mean, you probably went through this too. I know I have of, is this my thing? Am I passionate about this? Do I want to do this for the next 100 years? And I love that. Just start doing it and you will figure it out.Lopa:Yeah.Stephanie:That's perfect. All right, Lopa, well, I've loved having you on. It's been such an engaging conversation. It's really fun to hear about your life and Rasa. Where can people find out more about you and your company?Lopa:We are at wearerasa.com and we actually have a discount code for you guys. If you use the code upnext, you'll get 20% off your order. And we're also on Amazon and we're on Instagram and Facebook at We Are Rasa.Stephanie:Amazing. I'm definitely using that code. I cannot wait to try it. So thank you so much for joining us. We'll have to have you back for round two to hear how the company is going because this is such a pleasure.Lopa:I would love that. Thank you.

Most people probably know Cuisinart because of the company's kitchen appliances like the food processor, air fryer, or coffee maker. Cuisinart's products are everywhere — in kitchens around the world, in retail stores, and yes, online. In the last year or so, Cuisinart has put a much greater emphasis on the DTC part of the business -- walking the tightrope of being there for retail partners, while still making sure that there is enough inventory to meet the demand coming from online. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Mary Rodgers, the Director of Marketing Communications for Cuisinart, explains the steps the company took to make the pivot to DTC without leaving retail partners in the lurch. Mary also talked about how the marketing and online pushes for products went from being planned out months in advance to changing from one day to the next. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:From Months To Weeks To Days: Sometimes, the world moves so fast that planning in months-long cycles places you at a disadvantage. When demand, retailer needs, and inventory is shifting at a rapid pace, you need to come up with a plan that allows you to stay ahead of the curve, even if that means changing strategies from one day to the next.Eyes On Your Own Paper: Some brands will look to their competitors to see what influencers they are working with or how they are running their campaigns, and then they will try to copy that approach. While this is tactical, it is not strategic because you are placing blind trust in another brand's team and vision without even knowing if what they did paid off. You have to do your own homework and think about your customers' needs and build a strategy around that rather than just trying to keep up with the Joneses.More Than Just A Product: Brands have to think beyond the products they sell and understand how the customers will be using those products. Often, especially in housewares, consumers will be using one product in concert with another or as part of a recipe. By understanding the life of the consumer beyond purchase and coming up with content to connect with consumers after the fact, brands can create a more fruitful and loyal relationship with their customers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Mary Rodgers who currently serves as the director of marketing communications at Cuisinart. Mary, welcome.Mary:Hi, I'm so glad to be here today and join you. I'm really excited about talking all things marketing.Stephanie:Yes. I can not wait. So I'd love to kind of, before we get into Cuisinart and your role there, I want to hear a bit about your background and how you even entered the world of housewares and cookware and all of that.Mary:So back in the day, I actually worked for a retailer and they worked in the housewares department and I went up through the ranks there getting to the level of assistant DM. And so that wasn't my favorite thing is, was involving a lot of scheduling people and logistics. And that was kind of my foray into the home goods' area. And then I also did work for publisher for short period of time because my background was basically literature and journalism up to that point when I was studying in college. And then I transitioned into marketing at that point in the publishing world.Stephanie:Okay, cool. And when did you get introduced to the role at Cuisinart?Mary:So I worked for a company who is much more of a legacy company. I work for a company called Farberware. They were really well known. They had a manufacturing facility in the Bronx. And they basically did everything there. We did product development, engineering. It was a really great learning experience. And my previous boss, I worked for another company called Dansk, who is now owned by Food52, they just bought them recently.Stephanie:Cool.Mary:And my boss there went to Farberware and he asked me to join him there. And then that got sold and dismantled in '96. And I had always had Cuisinart on my radar. I thought it was a really great up and coming young, kind of small organization that I felt had a lot of growth potential, which turned out to be true. And so I actually reached out to them. And I didn't know it at the time, but they were looking to fill a marketing communications position for quite a long time. Their previous person in the job had left. So I was the only candidate. But they loved my background and obviously my experience in housewares and also the fact that I had pretty deep product development experience. That wasn't the direction I wanted to go in permanently. I mean, I'm glad I know that process and I've done it, but my real expertise is marketing communications.Mary:So it's really interesting because when I joined in '96, as you can imagine was very, they really hadn't done any real marketing, not much advertising. They just really were just scrappy entrepreneurs. I think of ourselves, is that still today, but for different reasons. And it was like, the media channels then were like five channels unlike today. So obviously, as you can imagine over time, things have changed dramatically compared to when I first started, when we were so focused on things print advertising. And we matured into things like understanding the value of TV advertising. I actually built a model for the company to show them the impact of TV advertising on sales and trajectory that you can get from that.Mary:And so we forayed into that and really started building out, strengthen multiple channels and not just one. And so, today obviously it's like a whole new world. And I also like to say I consider myself a modern day marketer because there's so many things you have to be, not just aware of, but understand, now that you didn't then. It's kind of like, back in the day, you knew what the impact was on business, but now you really know what it is because you have hard data, where in the past you would rely on your retailers or sell through retailers. And so things are much, much more sophisticated now. And you also have many different avenues to test and learn too.Stephanie:Yeah. Seems like too, over the past couple of years, I mean, especially the past year, I'm sure everything's had to be rethought, replanned and planning cycles kind of go out the window. Annual plans turn into quarterly, turned into daily. And how did you guys adapt to that, the changing consumer preferences of all of a sudden people are at home, they're cooking, they need all the things to make the recipes? And I'm sure a lot of things had to change on your side as well to going to keep up with that.Mary:Yeah. One of the biggest challenges we had in the last, basically year and a half, the challenges are similar now, but for different reasons. So basically, we keep our eye very closely on trends. And when I get up in the morning, I'm reading all kinds of articles and information and just everything changes on a dime now. So you have to be on top of it all the time, but we also started to hear things from our retailers, like they were looking for goods that they maybe weren't looking for before, like bread makers, waffle makers, more coffee makers, coffee grinders because people during the time when lots of places were closed, they still wanted a great cup of coffee. They had to make it for themselves basically.Mary:So what happened for us was, and I'm really very proud of our team on this because it took a lot more effort because in the past we didn't have to worry about like, "We're out of inventory of this, we're out of inventory that. We sold out every last ice cream maker we had." In the past, we always knew we had stock and buffer stock and we never had to drill down. If we knew something was out of stock, it wasn't like 10 or 12 items, might be one-offs or something. So we ended up going from an annual planning phase to quarterly, to monthly, to weekly, to daily. And we spent a lot more time and effort on operational issues, just moving inventory to our D2C business, which became a whole hoo-ha.Mary:And then also just making sure that we had inventory. We at least had certain amount of retailers that had inventory of an item. And with every marketing program we did, we did that. So it took a lot of juggling. We had to push things out. We had to keep our eye on incoming inventory when it was going to be available, when retailers were going to have it. And so it became very tactical to be completely honest with you. Like something that you think is your strategic, but it doesn't matter, at the end of the day, you're going to have all the strategy you want if you don't have the goods, right?Stephanie:Yeah.Mary:And we also, I personally noticed this with some of our retail partners, because a lot of the retail partners in the very beginning went into complete shut down. They shut the stores down. But they can't easily turn things off. And so they were running campaigns for things they had no product, which is the one thing that makes me crazy is to know people are spending time, money, effort, and resources marketing something that you can't sell because you're not going to convert if you don't have it. So whatever data you do get is not going to be very valuable at all. And then it becomes no history. Right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mary:So you look back at that program, and you're like, "Well, it didn't do well." And then you have to remember all the things around it that happened. The reason why it didn't do well. And then you just wasted a lot of effort for no-Stephanie:No return.Mary:... benefit.Stephanie:Yeah. So when thinking about a daily planning process, what were some of the key lessons when you look back, you're like, "Oh, this would have helped make it easier," and are you still doing that today right now? Because that sounds insane, looking every day at the trends and hearing from the market and being like, "Oh, people want this, and now it's shifting here and we need a marketing campaign around this." And also getting all the backend right and making sure that you've got the inventory and it's all tied together. How would you set it up today? And would you still advise on daily planning processes?Mary:Yeah. So I would say to you, it's not the way we like to do things. But it was just, we just didn't want to be spending time, money, and effort on something that wasn't going to produce for us. So we felt it was necessary. And I would still do it today because we were, I mean, we are nimble. So the fact that we could say, "Hey, bread makers are doing really well right now. Let's make sure we're making people aware that we have bread makers and we're selling them." And I mean, that was not that big of a challenge for us, but when we ran out of bread makers, I had to say to our team, I'm like, "Well, you know what? Even though you don't have a bread maker, you can still mix dough in a food processor or you can use one of our stand mixers." And so change the storyline basically and look at it from a different direction.Mary:Or the other thing we did is when there was a yeast shortage start giving people ideas on other things that you can make that don't have yeast without having to go into the whole sourdough trend which would have been, not exactly making bread today. Right?Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. That's like, making do with what you got and just shifting the storyline. I mean, because I think the amount of searches I've always put in to be the replacement for soy sauce, the replacement for eggs, and really leaning into that trend of being like, "We can't help you here, however, you don't even need that thing. And now maybe you do need it." How do you get your team thinking in that kind of mindset? Because I'm imagining when you come to daily planning processes, you really have to decentralize the entire team structure to let them make these quick moves and throwing campaigns and setting them free to do what they know is best.Mary:Yeah. So I mean, my style, my leadership style, I'm not a micromanager. I don't believe in micromanagement. My personal belief is that when you empower your team to own their business, they're more committed to it. And so that's the approach I take, but I'm definitely involved in all aspects of the business and guiding them in those ways. Trying to help them think a little bit differently about their approach. But at the end of the day, they're the ones coming up with the alternative content based on those comments. I'm not the one doing that. I'm definitely letting them own all of that themselves. And we work with a lot of external agency partners. So we work really, really closely with them and they are also working with each other.Mary:So it's not a siloed system, basically. All our agency partners know each other. We are really good at making sure that we're having constant lines of communication open based on whatever's happening in our business. And also down to any aspect of marketing that we're using to promote product. And then the only thing I would other say is that you had asked me earlier about what's changed compared to last year? So I'm sure you've heard that the marketplace, the supply chain marketplace is still highly disrupted, but for different reasons now. So the reasons now are basically raw material shortages, huge increases in the price of containers, cost of containers.Mary:And most people in the durable goods category, they are bringing goods into the country. And then a lot of people are spending time trying to diversify their supply chain in order that they're not heavily reliant on one point of reference for their goods. But that's also something that can't happen overnight. That's something that has to be, it's long-term. That's a longterm position. But we're already hearing in the marketplace that some competitors are basically not going to have inventory of certain items. It's not going to happen. So we also then look at those opportunities and try to capitalize on those opportunities because if we do have supply of similar product in the same category, we are going to try to help out our retailers and make sure that we get them supply to fill those holes for them. And so our team, we have a decent-sized planning team that work really closely with the division heads to make sure that they're focusing on the items that have the greatest need.Stephanie:So how do you create a open conversation with retailers or other partners to figure out what they're missing? Because it seems like in a way, once you would structure a partnership where they're like, "Oh, you always give me bread makers. That's what I know you for." I would think that they wouldn't think like, "Oh, I should share that I also need this isn't this," because they're so tunnel vision on like, "My partner does this with me." So how do you even go about developing that relationship? Or they will say, "Here's some gaps right now in inventory that we just can't get, can you help us?"Mary:Yeah. I mean, that happened last year. So those conversations were had over the last year and a half. And our sales team works very closely with their retail partners. And so they're having those conversations on an ongoing basis. And it also helps out our retailers and it also instills us as making sure that we're helping them protect their business too, because I'm sure you realize this, if you went around six months ago and you went into some of the retail establishments you would see empty shelves and you would see big places in the home goods' area, where there was not a lot to purchase in person.Mary:And so those are ongoing for us because we also work really close with them planning ahead because encouraging them to make sure that they get their forecasting done months in advance so that we can buy against that forecast and protect their orders so that they have good supplies, especially as we go into the back half of this year, which for us, my team calls it our Super Bowl because that's our peak season basically. And so we want to make sure that all the stars align. And our marketing is pushing the items that we can focus on, but we also make sure that, like I said, inventory is essential for us.Stephanie:Well, if that's so, is there anything, any big bets that you guys have made, or that you're implementing right now, especially around supply chain or something that's just totally different than how you used to do things, and you're not really sure about the outcome, but you think you're ahead of the game? Because I've heard a lot of people come on the show and talk about this as a big issue and there's room for disruption in the whole logistics and supply chain and warehousing and all of that, but I haven't heard many people be like, "We're doing it this way now and it's working." Or, "We're going to explore it this way. And we think there might be opportunity around adjusting these things."Mary:Yeah. I mean, I have those conversations all the time. It's like, "Okay, we need to get our fall marketing plan locked down," because, and you know this, it's not something you turn on in a day. It has to be those big campaigns, tent-pole type things are planned months in advance. And so I was already having those conversations a month ago, basically like, "These are the items I think we should focus on, but I also need to have confidence that we can have product." So we honed in on the items that we're pretty sure that we can generate demand, but also have appropriate supply of goods. And we're also making sure that we are doing some other things which involve our retailers, like aligning our retailers so that they are working in the same playbook we are because it's, I call it compounding interest. That's kind of how I look at it.Mary:I tell our sales team, "Look, if you were smart, you would take advantage of this. This is what we're working on. And we were very transparent about it with our retail partners and our sales team, because the more we're all pushing in the same direction, we are going to be more successful." And we're also doing a lot of other things like digital audits and making sure that our digital shelf, not just for ourselves, but for our retail partners are clean and tidy and neat and organized the right way and they have the right data specs and content and all of the things that they need to make sure that they're successful on their side. So it's not just about the marketing that we're doing, but it's the support that we provide to the sales team and the retail partners that extend basically.Mary:And like I said, I call it compounding because for every one of those partners I can get in line, the more powerful the campaigns are across the board.Stephanie:Yup. I mean, I definitely understand that. It's like, "Why wouldn't you all be kind of rowing towards the same end point? If you guys are having a big campaign push why wouldn't they also invest in the same thing instead of having diverse efforts?" What are some of the biggest gaps that you see on retailer websites when you're saying you want to make sure it's clean and tidy, they have all the right information. What are some big missing pieces that when you go in and you do your digital audits, you're like, "Ah, once again, you're missing this or you're doing it this way. And we know that it's best to do it this way." Because I'm sure you're not the only one who is struggling or finds those kind of things on the retailers websites.Mary:Yeah. So basically our focus has been along naming conventions and search. Those are the two things that we've put a lot of effort into. So on-site search for retailers, every retailer could be using a different partner for search or self-developed search, or however doing it, it's just that, it could be different for every retailer. So that has been a big focus for us. And then the other thing too is making sure that any content that we're developing much more. So in the lifestyle area, that we are making that content available for all of our retailers and sharing out because that's become a big, I don't want to say burden, but it's been, every retailer has different specifications. Like, "I want seven lifestyle images and I want this and I only take this size and only take that size." And just the whole logistics end of it because as retailers are not developing content for every product that they sell on their digital shelf. They're not doing that. They're repurposing content.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, how do you know, first if they're using it, using it in the correct way? And also, do you see them putting their own spin on it? Because there's been a few times when I've seen, maybe I go to Cuisinart and I'm like, "Oh, that was an epic video product placement." I just associate it with you guys potentially. And then maybe I go to, I don't know, HomeGoods and same content. And I go to Macy's, same content. And then you start being like, "Wait, who started this content?" I've seen that happen a few times with brands where they're all reusing the same stuff. Are you encouraging your partners to repurpose it, put your own spin on it, put your own voice on it, use it how you see best fit, or are you just like, "Here's the box that you need to work within?"Mary:Yeah. So how we protect ourselves against that is we develop our own custom content for ourselves. So that's how we set ourselves apart.Stephanie:You're the original. You like [crosstalk]?Mary:Yeah, instead of... I mean, sure, you realize this is duplication of that, it doesn't necessarily help with SEO related things. But retailers have so many products and they're so big. When you think about, what one retailer, or how many SKUs they have online versus an in-store environment, they're heavily reliant on brands to use that content there. They're just not going to develop that themselves. The sheer amount of resources that they need to do that is, it's not going to happen basically. And obviously we've put more emphasis on it ourselves because not only, do they need the content, but we need more content ourselves because we're not just using the content on our website, we're developing it for social, for digital, for every avenue, for work that we do through our PR agency. It's used in every channel.Mary:But like I said, the way that we differentiate in that area is that we are also developing custom content for ourselves. And we do also have retailers that they will change up their hero copy and this and that. I mean, when we do those audits, we also make sure that the information is correct and they don't go off the deep end. Stephanie:Yup. Yup. I can imagine there being a lot of value in what they're seeing on their side around the kinds of content that's working. Maybe they're getting some kinds of content from you in one way, and then different styles from another brand. Is there any data sharing there where they give feedback of like, "Oh, we see this toothbrush brand doing this and it's working really well. Our customers like this." Do they ever share that feedback and then help you rethink the content that you all are headed or going to create?Mary:Yeah, interesting that has never happened, but what we have done ourselves is that we obviously keep our eye on what content performs best and then we produce more of that type of content. So like most brands, user-generated content tends to perform much better. We work with a lot of influencers who obviously built custom content for us. And that's the stuff that performs much better than... I'm not saying our stuff doesn't perform, but in comparison, that material. It's also, somebody, it's brand appropriate, it has the proper brand essence to it, but consumers like to see other people's material and they gravitate towards it. And they're more engaged in it. And so we put more of a focus.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any big bets that you all are making in marketing campaigns or content that you're like, "This might not pay off or this could be taken the wrong way, but we're going for it?"Mary:I mean, not really in that sense, but in the sense of social shopping, we're putting more of a focus on social shopping and being able to track that. And we also just launched a campaign and we had positive ROI on it. So that's where everything's going. It's like making sure you have a positive ROI that you are testing and learning and being able to quantify. It's the benefit of the digital world. You can actually see the results of your efforts and what they produce.Stephanie:So earlier you mentioned influencers. And that's something on the show that I've heard a lot of mixed reviews around of what's an influencer? Who actually classifies as that? When does it deliver results? And how are you guys going about finding the right influencers and partnering the way that you get a long-term ROI?Mary:Yeah. So we've been working in this area for quite a long time. We don't focus on celebrity influencers. That's not our thing. We are most interested in aesthetic and brand alignment and also the fact that our consumers are very oriented around food and food is a big part of their life and they're very interested in recipe ideas and things like that. So we have a whole, we've developed an entire set of guidelines for influencers and also for any work that we're doing in social media for ourselves and for our licensed partners.Mary:And we have also over time found a few influencers that we've had ongoing partnerships with instead of one-offs. I'm sure a lot of people that you talk to talk about where this is going, where the influencer marketing field is going, because obviously there's a lot more brands using it in comparison to even one or two years ago. It also, when you get into that situation, you can be driving a pricing and a few other things. And those are all obviously concerns for everybody. And then also the fact that you also want to have separation with competitive brands which is a big concern. And we stay on top of all of that.Mary:We're not currently using a platform to vet influencers. We don't do that. We work with our PR agency Magrino, and they are basically doing the research and handpicking appropriate influencers. I mean, they know our guidelines and they know what we're looking for. And we also work with the influencer and also get their stats from them and making sure that they're in line. We also get contacted by a lot of people directly through our social channels, or even just through email wanting to partner with us and we explore all those opportunities, but at the end of the day, it also has to align with our needs and our guidelines and also the needs of our consumer.Stephanie:Yeah. We've heard quite a few brands saying, "Anyone can be an influencer essentially, and it's not the big celebrities of the world anymore. It's anyone who has even a couple of thousand followers, if those followers are engaged and ready to buy." Are you seeing those more, the micro influencers working better than just, like you said, you don't even go for celebrities? So what do you look for when you're trying to find someone who's going to be a good fit for the brand and also deliver good results?Mary:Yeah. I mean, our biggest thing is engagement. That's what we are interested in. We're interested in engagement. We also have a certain level of followers that we're interested in, not in the small thousands per se, but those are all key vetting points for us. And then also we check their handle, make sure that the work that they're doing is aligned with what our consumers want to see also. We don't want to see overly promotional. We want to see some separation. We also want to see, like I said, engagement is a key factor for us too.Stephanie:Yeah. And it seems like that's where the world as a whole is headed around organic content, authentic UGC, not the way that it used to be even just a couple of years ago around, you see a channel, wherever it was and being like, "Oh, obviously their whole goal here is just to sell, sell, sell." I rarely see that working anymore. And if you see people doing that, they quickly start falling down the ranks of, "Why am I even here if you're just selling this one haircare product the entire time, and there's no other content. I don't feel connected with that." So it seems like everything's kind of shifting in that direction.Mary:Yeah, it definitely is. And people want to be inspired. That's why they're on these channels. They want to be inspired, they want to educate themselves a lot of times. People are very visually inspired and they want to... I mean, I even know myself the types of things that I use social media for, it's education too. It's about, I happen to study Italian, so I'm very oriented. I follow a lot of people in Italy and cookbook authors and things like that. And I'm there to learn. I'm there to be inspired by their knowledge and the recipe ideas. And it doesn't matter, it just matters what the consumer's passionate about. And that's what you have to deliver to them. They don't want to be hammered over the head every day with, "Buy my blah, blah." I mean, that's not why they're there. And then, as you said, what happens is over time they tune out.Stephanie:Yup. Are there any, what maybe some would call competitors that you'd be open to being shown up against, because I see that being a world where you're like, "Oh, I really want this influencer. They're really big in the food scene, but they also use a semi-competitor products." Are you all okay with that? Or are you like, "Oh, it has to be semi-exclusive," or, "You can't feature other competitors on your channel as well."Mary:Yeah. We wouldn't do that.Stephanie:You wouldn't do that? That's hard no.Mary:We're too competitive.Stephanie:Yep. Hey, I like it. That's great.Mary:Yeah. I mean, we even go to the point where we, "When you're taking photos, we don't want to see competitive product in the photo." I mean, and I assume people over time also do the same thing. But yeah, we're very competitive. We want to see separation. We don't want to work with somebody who is like, been all over every competitor known to man. And hey, I know for a fact that people probably go on our channel and see who we're working with and use us as a free game for not having to find their own influencers for all I know, and we don't do that. We don't do that at all. I would not encourage that. That's kind of the lazy man's way out. But yeah, we don't do that.Stephanie:That's not a long game [crosstalk].Mary:No, it's a short game. And the thing is, it's like, if you're in this for the long haul, you're going to do it from a strategic perspective and not a tactical perspective. And to me, that's tactical because you're assuming whatever I'm doing is going to work for you. And your brand's, different brand. Your consumers have different needs and wants. That's what you need to focus on.Stephanie:Yeah. And it's putting way too much trust in another team that you don't even know what they're talking about. Why they're doing that. You don't even know what they're partnering with that person.Mary:And the other thing is, you don't even know what the stats are, how it produced, how it performed. I mean, now at the end of the day, you really don't. So we don't do that. It's not even in my mindset to be completely honest with you, but I'm not saying that other people don't take that tactic.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Earlier you were talking about creating these shoppable experiences. And before the show, I mentioned also headless commerce and you're like, "Oh, I mean, is that even a term anymore? We've been doing that forever." I want to hear what you guys are seeing around what some would still say is a trend. And we've had some people be like, "That's not even a thing," or, "It's here to stay." And I'd love to hear your perspective since you guys are the maybe OGs in this. You've already been doing it.Mary:And it was one of those things where we did it for a different reason. Well, it was similar reason, but different. So this is like years ago, our shopping cart aspect of our website is completely separate from the web property and the reason it was done like that was that we were working with a fulfillment company. We've been selling direct-to-consumer for years and years. It's just that we use a fulfillment company. Consumer have this shopping experience on our website, but the orders were sent to a fulfillment organization. They fulfilled them. And we kept the consumer in our ecosystem because I wanted it to be able to own the data.Mary:So this was like more forward-thinking. Now, this is like all the trend. People are like, first-party data, first-party data, but that's how I protected my first-party data years ago. And so in a way, thank God I did it because when we wanted to bring the D2C business back in-house in late 2018, I didn't have to restructure my entire website. I basically just had to plug in a shopping cart basically at that point. And then last year in the middle of the year, we transitioned our entire web property to Episerver, it's a DXP, and still kept the shopping cart separate. And what we ended up doing, it was you made as much of the site [CMSable] as possible so that the marketing team can virtually do any day-to-day operation that we need to change a price, add a new product, build a landing page. We just finished building out blocks so that we can build custom landing pages. We can literally do anything ourselves.Mary:And so the idea was we wanted to be a masters of our own domain basically, because in our previous situation we used one web development company and they did everything for us. And unfortunately, over time as the brand became more mature, it didn't make sense for us anymore because we really needed experts. We needed experts in SEM, SEO. We needed experts in web development, in the latest best platform to use. And we also wanted to be more in control of our business. So we didn't have to open a ticket with IT. And the SDP emails me, is like, "Hey, I think we changed the price on blah, blah, blah, can you fix it on the website?" I'm like, "On the fly." Kids do it in 10 seconds, and not even... So this way we're in control of our destiny, basically. We're not heavily reliant on any one thing or any one agency. And this way also, if we decide to change agencies, we're not stuck.Mary:And that's one of the things that is really important for us and for our business. And not having to get in line at the deli stand. No seriously, I say I'm a point A to point B person. I don't want to have to go through five people to do something. I want to be able to control my destiny and the destiny of the company and the brand. And that's how I look at it. And that's how, it's more work for us because now instead of dealing with one agency, we're dealing with multiple agencies, but that's what's best for the company. And that's what's best for the brand because when you get to a certain level, you need to be reliant on experts in the field.Mary:And this is where vertical integration is not necessarily the best thing for your business. And so it depends. I know some people are all up for vertical integration, but what happens over time is when you're not continually developing those people and making sure they stay best in class and they only have one client, you get denigration over time, basically, in my opinion.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, there's no incentives to keep doing better and better if you're getting paid the same amount to, essentially, if you can make it less work. And I mean, and they're not going out to the market and shopping it and doing our piece. They're like, "This is what we got right here. I'm doing a flat line thing for anyone." Obviously it's like, "Would have stepped in with our hand." But I mean, I also think about it's the company, the age of the company and where they're at in that life cycle. And it seems like it always starts with, you've got the founders and then it's very dispersed and you're hiring all these agencies and, "I need social, I need this, I need that." And it's all over the place. And then you start to bundle it back up again and bring things in-house.Stephanie:At what point do you think that companies should start considering pulling things back in-house, controlling their own destiny a bit more and not relying on just one or two agencies to control what's happening and where they have to wait in line at the deli stand, as you'd say?Mary:Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on your business because for where we are and where the brand is now, it's more important for us to be working with what I call best in class. And the thing is, unless your organization is continually investing in talent and adding head count and all those things that companies are not necessarily looking to do. The sheer amount of people you need to keep that train running is probably unreasonable. And so for me, I can't even imagine us bundling this all back and bringing it in-house. I just think our needs are greater than that at this point. But I'm not saying it'll never happen. Things change every day, but at the end of the day in my experience, when you have some of these in-house organizations, it slows down your business. It's slow. It's like, "Okay, here's a common service area. There's nine divisions. And we all have to use the same point, the entry and get in line."Mary:And it's like, things never happened. It's like the slow boat. It's not easy. And the other thing too, is what ends up happening sometimes with organizations is, "Let's have so-and-so do it." And they have no expertise, they have no experience, they have no knowledge. And so that person's not really the right one to be there, but they're handed the thing and it's not necessarily the best outcome. So for me right now, I'm not intending on rebundling and bringing anything back. And first of all, the sheer lift on that would be insane. And you're also talking-Stephanie:And you also let the team go and hire too, which I love. I mean, the team be on a find a cool vendor and find a cool agency to work with it, and maybe executives would have never had time to even stumble on. I mean, that's how we even got our start with Salesforce, was one team within Salesforce betting on us and being like, "Let's try this company. It's small, but they want to make a podcast. Let's go for it and partner with them." And just getting that one opportunity to then spread within the company and do a good job and prove yourself. I think that's how a lot of innovation can happen by just letting the teams go and source those cool opportunities or companies to partner with.Mary:And the other thing too, is you have to remember when you're working with agency partners, they have other clients that you learn from. They are bringing you ideas that they've seen possibly be successful with other clients in completely different industries. And so there's a lot of built-in advantage there. There's built in knowledge, there's built in advantage. I also think that they understand our business. We're teaching them over time, our business. And so they're invested in it. They're invested in making sure that we're successful and we're doing the same. I think sometimes when you vertically integrate, the motivations may be different. And there's maybe not necessarily that hunger over time. And so depending on what that situation is like internally depends on how successful that is.Stephanie:Yep. I totally agree. Love it. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Mary?Mary:I'm ready.Stephanie:Awesome. All right. So pull out your crystal ball, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Mary:I think social selling.Stephanie:Yeah? Tell a bit more. What are you thinking?Mary:Well, because it's a new channel. It's getting to the point where we have ways to prove it out. I believe that it's definitely a new area. When I look at statistics in social selling, it's like the last year, I think it's like 57% of the consumers bought something off social office, social channel. I mean, that's a big opportunity as far as I'm concerned.Stephanie:Yeah. That's where I source a lot of everything, by Instagram, TikTok, I'm like, "Oh, cute shirt, cute outfit. That makeup set, you said, that's good? Okay. I trust you." Yeah. I definitely agree on that. What is your favorite Cuisinart product outside of the air fryer? And me, I was like, "I know she's going to say that again."Mary:That is by far my favorite product, but I have several. So we have a product called the griddler which we've had in the line for a really long time. We have a couple of new versions of it. And so that's, now I'm going to go into the pitch, but-Stephanie:Do it. Do [crosstalk].Mary:It's an indoor grill. It has, basically, can take you from breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It has reversible plates. You can make a panini. And the great thing about it as the plates go right in the dishwasher. So you make a meal in minutes and there's little cleanup. So that's another one of my favorite products. And I couldn't start my day without my Cuisinart single-serve coffee maker. We have multiple coffee makers in this house, but don't judge me, I happen to work for a company that makes a lot of great ones, but we use the single-serve one when we're in hurry, but we also use a grind and brew when we want to linger over a pot. So definitely coffee would be, can't start my day without it.Stephanie:Wow. So many products you need to invest in. I don't even know where to start. Great. What is one brand that you watch that helps you stay creative or innovative, or you keep an eye on what they're doing? And it does not have to be in the cookware industry of course, it can be very different.Mary:Keep my eye on a lot of companies. So it's hard to distill down. And I would say, a lot of them are not in, I mean, not that I don't keep track of my competitors, believe me, I do, but they're several. I would say Peloton is one of them just because of, I mean, they've been in the news a lot lately, but that's not my reasons. The community aspect of it, I think that's what the product is really about. It's not really about the physical products. So I think that's really cool. Obviously, Apple, who doesn't keep their eye on Apple. I would also Amazon because they're into everything. There's every day I open the news and I'm like, "What don't they do basically."Mary:So let's say that's a few of them. Then I also keep my eye on a lot of startups, small startups, especially in the food industry right now. I really love what's going on in plant-based food and there're so many food startups out there. I really am very intrigued by the work that they're doing.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. We just did a whole episode too on why your best ideas can come from looking outside your industry and how that's a lot of innovations happen, especially when you have a similar problem that maybe has already been solved. If you're thinking like, "Oh, I have something around employees in this and how to set it up. And I'm in the food industry. Let me go look at the, I don't know, space industry and see how they think about this or even military or something. How do they do team structures?" And yeah, it was very interesting to think about how other industries can influence creativity and solving problems.Mary:Yeah. The other thing too, what I think about is, there's so much work going on in the plant-based food business. There's so many competitors. The same thing with meal kits. At some point consolidation has to happen. But the other reason I keep my eye on that is, we have to be as people who make appliances, we have to be helping our consumers understand how to actually prepare those foods when they get at home and they're using our equipment and all those types of things. I mean, if you just look at conventional meats versus grass-fed versus organic, they all cook differently. So there's some work that has to be done there to educating the consumer.Mary:So that's another reason why I keep my eye on the food industry. And just food in general, it's changing so fast. And also people have much more, such interest in ethnic foods and discovering new foods. And there's an entire process of what happens to consumers when they travel somewhere and taste something new and try to recreate it at home. So I keep my eye on all those types of things.Stephanie:Yep. That just made me think about something that needs reinvention that maybe you guys can tap into, the microwave. Why does it still have presets that just say potato, popcorn. I'm like, "I don't use any of those. And this is 2021. People make many different things, not just baked potatoes and meat or whatever it has on there." So if you also helps with that.Mary:It's funny because, I'll tell you something about myself. So we have multiple air fryers, there's digital ones, which have a zillion options. I have the, this is going to make me sound analog instead of digital completely, but I actually like the dials because I like to decide myself how it should be cooked. But yeah, so I agree with you though, like, "How many cups of coffee do we need to reheat before we know that's what it is?"Stephanie:Yup. Yup. Man.Mary:Baked potato popcorn.Stephanie:Yep. [crosstalk].Mary:But they're also the most used functions, which is, kind of drives why they're there.Stephanie:Wow. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'm just not their typical user.Mary:Maybe you're not making enough baked potatoes.Stephanie:I know. I guess, I need to get on that. What am I doing with my life? All right. And the last question, what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Mary:Oh, Bitcoin, please.Stephanie:Yeah. I've had so many people say that on the show.Mary:Cryptocurrency, I don't get it in. And after watching Elon Musk on Saturday Night Live, I still don't know anything.Stephanie:Man, I think this is just going to push me to start a crypto podcast because so many e-commerce guests have said that and trying figure it out and how it's going to impact their work or their point of sale systems or payments or any of that, or even supply chain, which I think it's going to have a huge impact on.Mary:Yeah. It's interesting. Because I think I'm smarter than the average doc and I just cannot follow that at all. It's not that I haven't tried, but I definitely need an education there and I'd appreciate if you help me with that.Stephanie:All right. I will find a sponsor. Anyone come on in and sponsor the show, I'll get it going and Mary is going to be my first guest to ask all the questions.Mary:I'm there.Stephanie:Well, all right, Mary. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting. Where can people find out more about you and Cuisinart?Mary:So you can find out more about Cuisinart at cuisinart.com. So follow us on all the social channels under Cuisinart, except for on TikTok, it's cuisinart_official, which we're just starting that right now. So we're testing the waters as they say.Stephanie:It's going to be air frying all the things on there I bet. That'll do.Mary:Exactly.Stephanie:That'll be hot on that channel.Mary:Just started. So we're just getting our feet wet. And then you can follow me on LinkedIn, it's Mary Rodgers. Easy to find.Stephanie:Perfect. Thank you so much.Mary:Thank you. It's great being with you today. It was a lot of fun.Stephanie:Same, and I agree.

In-store sales. Ordering for delivery. Buy online, pick-up in store. With so many buying options accessible to consumers, companies are now facing many different kinds of orders to manage and get right. In the restaurant industry specifically, there has been a huge upswing in the number of people ordering online, especially through apps such as Uber Eats, Grubhub, and Doordash. And that's nothing compared to the number of point of sale systems that are being used. Moving orders from an app or online system into a physical point of sale is a process that's prone to human error, but for so long that's been the only way to do it. Zhong Xu and Deliverect want to change that. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Zhong explains how an integrated, cloud-based platform is taking the pain out of managing multiple ordering and POS systems. Plus he discusses how the real world and virtual world will start to blend together more and more as brands invest in digital-focused capabilities. Enjoy this episode.    Main Takeaways:404 Error No More: There are thousands of point of sale systems and all of them require humans to re-enter online orders perfectly into them before they can be made and delivered. This leads to errors and dissatisfied customers. Integrating the POS and ecommerce systems is one of the most effective ways to reduce those errors. The Real And Virtual World: As restaurants reopen dine-in services post pandemic, they are still keeping an eye on the ecommerce space. The rise of the digital consumer has made it so that restaurants are now looking to create virtual brands with specific functions and offerings for their virtual audience. And sometimes that means creating or investing in a physical space that is only used to fulfill online orders.Addition Without Subtraction: Even though there has been an uptick in delivery and curbside pick-up orders, restaurants are still seeing strong in-store dining numbers. This means that restaurants can invest in delivery and ecommerce tools to improve the customer experience without worrying that doing so will cannibalize in-house dining.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, we have Zhong Xu, the co-founder and CEO of Deliverect. Zhong welcome.Zhong:Hey, welcome. Thank you. Nice to be on your podcast.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you on. So before we dive into Deliverect, I was hoping we could start a little farther back in history, when you were building your first company at age 17. I think that'd be a fun starting point to hear what were you thinking back then? So, then we can see how you got to Deliverect.Zhong:Yeah, exactly. I think Deliverect today is quite a big company, as we serve customers in over 30 market. Especially the last year, we just processed over a billion dollar in sales. I think that's quite exceptional for a company that young. That being said, the reason we can so quick is due to our couple of decades almost experience in the hospitality space. So, I was pretty much born in this space, as a very young [inaudible]. I started helping restaurants to go online, right? So, making their first website and so on and that's almost, I think 20 years ago. So, I'm very early on the internet timeframe and the reason why I got in that space is actually because my father has a point of sale company for Asian restaurants. So, especially if you're Asian, a lot of people know your father will always say, "Hey, you can work, right? You're young, you should get out there, earn some money, do your part." So, that's how I enrolled into hospitality business and that was my first business.Stephanie:Very cool. So, you were building websites for restaurants and then, did you start seeing issues they were having and is that what led you to building Deliverect to where it is today?Zhong:Well, it's actually quite a funny story, because of that, I never wanted to take over my father's business. So, I said, "Hey, maybe I need to study IT." So, I went to study software engineering, right? Before I went into the restaurant space again, I said, "Hey, there's something out there for mobile applications." So, I created mobile websites and mobile apps prior to the iPhone. So, I feel [crosstalk] and so, when the iPhone and the first iPad came out, I felt it was perfect timing to disrupt that side of business, especially when point of sale was very hard to use. It was a legacy system, not cloud-based. So, actually in 2010, 11, I co-created the first iPad point of sale in Europe, one of the first 3000 apps on the app store back then.Zhong:So, you can imagine how that grew and just in a couple years I grew that company quite quickly. It was called POS iOS. That name you wouldn't know, but I merged POS iOS in 2014 with now a public company called Lightspeed, right? So, we pretty much ran the global hospitality division of Lightspeed, prior to their IPO. So, we were well entrenched in scaling this and one of the things there, of course we are always in contact with restaurants around the world. At the same time, the same thing happens. The first time I did this was really solving the pain of cloud-based and tablets and old hardware, but in 2016, 17, we saw that restaurants were struggling actually managing their online sales, right?Zhong:And it was quite funny, because most restaurants had said back then to me, "This is never going to happen, the offline to online transition. Yeah, yeah. You have this in retail, but that's clothing and that's shoes. We're creative people. It's about warm food, about service, never going to happen." Well, suddenly you have these companies like Uber Eats and DoorDash, GrubHub and hundreds of others popping up, where you quickly saw that transition happening. So, early on, these customers of us said, "Hey Zhong, you need to help us. This wave of offline to online is apparently unstoppable, but we need a partner that can help us to make that transition." And Deliverect.Stephanie:Got it, got it. So, essentially we have all these restaurant ordering apps, like you said, Uber Eats and all the others that exist. And they were all coming at the restaurants a mile a minute and they were trying to manage them individually and you essentially consolidated that into one point of sale system, so that the restaurants could just interact with one portal that would then talk to all of the delivery companies, did I get that right?Zhong:You nailed it. It's really a game of whack-a-mole, as you can imagine, if you're running a restaurant. It's all very dense during your service, right? Where you have hundreds of orders coming in on all these tablets. If they all start to light up, you need to accept them. You need to take the order, re-key in your point of sale, send it to the kitchen, but even when the order is done, you need to go to any of these tablets and you need to find out what order it was, to dispatch the rider.Zhong:So, the complexity of this is enormous and I think as we go, the number of online channels or restaurant need or we'll have, is only increasing. Because it's not even about these delivery companies these days. You need to have an app for curbside pickup. You need to have a QR code at the dine-in app. You need to be on Google, Facebook and so on and so on. So, it's enormous.Stephanie:What are some of the issues you're seeing with restaurants, when you're coming in there and showing them, "Here's how to come online. Here's how to make this process work"? What are some of the hurdles for them to even implement this software? Where's the hold up sometimes?Zhong:Well, most of the times they can't believe what we do, because it's almost magical. When you're used to all these systems and suddenly you removed all these tablets and it just works, right? So, it's quite magical. I think the hurdle is, one side connecting with all these online players, but as well, very seamless with every point of sale they will tap. And the reason why is, in the hospitality space, you could say, "Hey, the online channels is fragmented." So, you have a lot of delivery companies, but actually the number of point of sale is way more fragmented than online players. There's literally not thousands but 10 thousands of point of sales out there and it's still what runs the restaurant. So, we connect that seamlessly through APIs, but also it's not just getting the order in your kitchen, but as well, working with them to do menu management, having automatic stock management, controlling the flows.Zhong:For example, when it's really busy, we will be able to slow down certain online channels to cover the kitchen time and the result of this is quite astonishing and it's threefold, right? One side, we can on average... Pre-COVID, because with the pandemic, it was a accelerated. We saw that the average restaurant was increasing 25 to 30% of their top line revenue alone, implementing us. During COVID, it was double, triple and quadruple, but no one knows why. And the other two things where it's important is, we reduce the error rate for the end customers, right? Maybe you have experienced it, but if you order some food, once in a while... Actually, it's between five to 8%. So, one out of 10, we get us a mistake. Someone didn't deliver what you wanted. You wanted the vegan food and you got something with meat and so on, right? So, we can reduce these errors by 80%. So, that's massive. Finally, with all these automations, it saves a lot of labor costs as well.Stephanie:Got it and how are you reducing the errors? What does that look like? Is it something that they're keying in the wrong way? Is that something the customer is doing or the kitchen's doing? What does that look like, to reduce the amount of errors, because I've definitely I've had that happen. And then, I've just been like, "Oh, this didn't arrive." And then, Uber Eats just refunds me and I'm like, "Hmm. Did you know it didn't arrive? How do you trust me? I don't know if I would even want to trust me saying that." And it's definitely very vague behind the scenes, of how they even view that?Zhong:Yeah. There's a lot of details, but it actually started with the beginning. Often, once a restaurant are not using us, the online menu that they have, they have one called Uber and other players they have inputted. It's not up-to-date right. So, imagine they don't have certain products or ingredients. Though they can snooze, but they cannot change the menu, the content of it. So, the menu on its own is [inaudible]. Second, when it's busy, they can't follow the flow of that stock. So, if it's not automated, you probably are ordering stuff that they are already sold out in restaurants, right? Because online, you have a lot more people ordering and then, with the in restaurant sales, they are always going to provide the customers in front of them the food that you online. So, that's the second thing.Zhong:A third thing that affect massively these error rate is, once you don't have it integrated, it comes on these tablets. You accept. There's an extra ticket printed by Uber Eats, DoorDash, GrubHub. They need to take that and re-key that in their point of sale perfectly, right? And that's where a lot of error happens. Sometimes the top line items, but even worse, when you put a note in there where you say, "Hey, I'm allergic to this and that. I want this and that," it causes a lot of trouble to re-key that correctly. So, if you take only these three things, it's quite massive, right? Imagine hundreds of orders. Even if you would do it, you would make a lot of mistakes.Stephanie:I can definitely see how human interaction always causes mistakes, of course. And I'm assuming it also integrates with the point of sale system to also run the restaurant, right? The one that the servers can use outside of the delivery, or are those two separate?Zhong:No. So, it integrates them directly with our current system, right? Because if you have a restaurant, you have kitchens, there's a lot of printers, kitchen screens. You want to make sure the workflow is seamless, because actually what's funny is, the throughput of a restaurant it's never boggled down by the kitchen. The kitchen can make a lot of food most of the time. It's really the front of house where, if you have customers standing in front of you and in the meantime, you have seven tablets pinging all the way, it's impossible to manage. So, we reduce all of that hassle.Stephanie:That's great. Yeah, I used to work in a restaurant. Starting in 14, I was working at Outback Steakhouse and worked in restaurants the entire time and can definitely say that's very true. The front of the house can get crazy, when the back's waiting on you to put in the order, help the customer, bring it out and get it out of their window, whatever it may be. So, I'm sure you see a lot of trends behind the scenes with working with so many restaurants and I've heard quite a few things. COVID hits, of course less people going in restaurants, more people ordering, but then also more people cooking at home. So, a lot of things kind of shifting. What are you seeing today, now that we obviously went through the big spike of everyone who wants to order online and order from restaurants probably has tried it by now and some of them are falling off. Maybe some new people are entering, but what are you seeing are general trends in the industry?Zhong:Well, I see it's actually picking up. One of the things you mentioned, everyone has tried. For example, during COVID a food status pre COVID, if you look at age group of 55 years and above, less than 10% has ever tried delivery, right? And now, that number is over 35%. So, it shows you that my father, grandfather, grandparents, everyone is using it.Zhong:So, the adoption rate is quite high and what you see is that, during pandemic, a lot of restaurants focus only on delivery, but now with the reopening, you see some restaurant doubling down, because they want to handle their in-dine customers. But at the same time, you see a lot of more restaurants opening multi-brands, right? One physical restaurant saying, "Hey, why don't I create virtual brand, that I only sell on these online platforms, but it's cooked in my kitchen? As well, the exponential growth of dark kitchens, these kitchens with multi-brands everywhere. Especially, as if I look at our numbers, I think the delivery space is only accelerating and what's good for this space is, it's on top of the dine-in. So, it's one is not cannibalizing anymore, the other sales, right? So, it's really on top of it.Stephanie:Got it. How do you view these dark kitchens, because we talked about this in a previous episode with Shake Shack, I believe and she kind of mentioned that she thought this was... I think she said a quick trend that might work for a little bit, but then people are going to want to stick with brand love of a certain company. They know it's cooked a certain way. You're only going to be able to use that model for so long. How are you viewing that right now?Zhong:I think that's still going on quite strong, right? There is a difference of... I would stay pure tech want to be thinking, "Hey, this is a fun idea. Me as a startup mindset, I'm going to implement a kitchen." It's just pure number game. That, I'm a lesser believer of, because what you see as the successful dark kitchens, are ones that are really restaurant operators that create amazing brand, amazing experience and at the end of the day great food, right? Sometimes people in that space forget it. It's like, "Hey, it's numbers.Zhong:I can make it work." So, people that do that well can expand quite rapidly, right? Because the cost of setting up or reaching these customers are way lower. If you want to do a restaurant that's maybe [inaudible] a half a million dollars, if you started a dark kitchen, it's one fifth of that. So, what you would see is that even established restaurants are having a dual model, where they say, "Hey, in the cities, I'm going to have my flagship restaurants, right? A couple of them, where you have the full experience. In the meantime, around that restaurant itself, I'm going to open a lot of these dark kitchens, so that you are at home wherever you are, can still order food." So, that hybrid model is really working well.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I wonder if they can eventually share kitchens in space and then, turn it on when you need it. And then in the meantime, let another brand have it. I'm even thinking about two brands, fast food chain. It's like Popeye's and MacDonald's in the same building. And in one way, I'm a little suspicious of that, because I'm like, "How do you all know how to make the same thing in the same building?" But it's also an interesting model. I think about it, like why rent an entire space if you only need it when you have peak order times. And then, anytime outside of that, it's just a commercial kitchen that anyone else can enter into.Zhong:Well, you actually have that. There's quite some of these concepts, almost a we-work of kitchens, right?Stephanie:Okay.Zhong:I think in these cases it would be, you rent the space because you don't want to open and set up your own kitchens, but then you would still put your own chefs in these places, right? I think there's also models where these kitchens provide you A to Z. I think that works well, if you're established brands, with real procedures about how to cook food. If you're experimenting, that's a bit harder. But that being said, we see a lot of success in the US. For example, in New York, we run Mealco. That's a very dark kitchen brand. They have a lot of brands. In LA, you have [inaudible] brands. Established restaurant chains like SPIN right, where you play normally ping-pong, but they run it at the same time in these kitchens, 8, 9, 10 brands, right? Because it's really complimentary and allows them when it's even not busy, to sell their food.Stephanie:Yeah. What kind of trends do you see overseas that are different than in the US, or vice versa?Zhong:I think it's quite a global trend. Even in Europe, Asia, Latin, as well US, you see the same trend popping up. What I do see it's interesting is, there's a lot of models, especially in the dark kitchen. People are trying. So, renting kitchens seems to be hard. Franchising their brand seems to sometimes work, where you say, "Hey, I have my brand. Any unutilized kitchen space or restaurant can take my brands and just sell." That seems to work. But as well, people that own the full stack, right? I think it's a bit too early to see what of the multiple models really will win, but that being said, I think each of them has massive traction. And that's why, if you look at market sizing, the size of dark kitchens is a trillion dollar business, depending on who you ask, right? So, it's a massive opportunity.Zhong:I think a second trend what's very interesting is the growth. As well, you see in the US, as well in Europe, of groceries, FNCG and CPG. So, for example, wherever in the world, you can order a Ben & Jerry's ice cream, right? You take your phone, you order Ben & Jerry's ice cream at 11:00 PM when you come back from a date and you just need ice cream and it gets delivered within 10 minutes. And you can do that in every city in the world. That being said, you will never find a Ben & Jerry's store so close by. So, even the rise of dark pop-up locations or delivery locations or dark fridges exists, right? For example, we power all the [inaudible]. So, as you go, you're going to see that perishable foods in general, is going to be very available and it's all about the convenience of it. Whatever you want, you click and you're going to get it.Stephanie:Yeah. I do see, it probably depends on where you're at in the country in the world, but there are definitely a lot more consumers now, who do care about the brand, the ingredients, where is it being sourced from? How are you going about growing those materials? It seems like a new trend. That's what sometimes makes me wonder about the dark kitchen trend, because I think a lot of people want convenience and being able to get it quick and easy and cheaper, then it seems like a larger proportion of people now are like, "I want to actually understand who's behind this food and how was it grown?" And all the details that maybe a lot of people didn't think about a decade ago.Zhong:Exactly and that's why one of the things I mentioned is, I think if you want to be successful, you need to be that restaurant operator. You need to be able to convey the complete story and say, "Hey, that's where we source the food. That's how we cook it. That's how we define quality." So, that side of it will work. If you're just there to produce mass produced food and want to have a quick buck and to earn, I think that's quite hard, right? Especially, because it's a very low margin business restaurant, so you better do it well.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. So, when it comes to point of sale systems in general, it seems like this is great obviously for restaurants, but there's a lot of other applications, because I can even think about a lot of delivery apps being like, "Oh, you need this for maybe Home Depot and you need this from Costco," and offering to pick up from many places. How are you viewing the general landscape of point of sale systems and where it's headed?Zhong:Well, so that's why we are a bridge above the point of sales, because that's really fragmented. So, for a point of sale, especially a lot of these older point of sale that are not cloud-based, it's very hard for them to process online orders. And that's where we come in. But on the other end as well, we have a dispatching product that allows any restaurant or any business actually to deliver their food or drinks or whatever perishable thing they have, within 10 minutes, because we connect with all kinds of third-party delivery companies like DoorDash Drive, Uber Direct as well, all the local ones.Zhong:So, the convenience side of it is going to be crucial for these restaurant, right? It's going to be the future is going to be really decoupling ordering from delivery. You will not per se care how you ordered it and you don't care who is bringing it, as long as you get it right? So, you can imagine you have a Google Home or Alexa and you say, "Hey, bring me some salad from that restaurant." And it gets processed and 10 minutes later, someone rings you up at the door and gives you that salad. So, we can really power that transmission of that world.Stephanie:Yeah. So, essentially it doesn't matter if it's restaurants or anyone else, first step is everyone needs to be cloud-based, so that then you can plug into them and help control the top level experience. So, then the consumer doesn't even know and doesn't have to know what's going on behind the scenes? That's usually how most technology evolves anyways, but you can essentially go anywhere, that's what you're saying?Zhong:Yeah. What we are doing is really creating that backbone of on-demand foods, right? So, creating that [inaudible] restaurant and the reason why I was adamant to start Deliverect, is to my personal experience, right? My father's system, the old point of sale still exists, right? Even after I created one of the most advanced iPad point of sale, I think I converted the three of his customers to that system. So, what that tells me especially in the point of sale space, there's a lot of servicing fragmentation and people have a low tendency of changing systems. That's why in enterprise restaurants, all of them you still see these Microsoft RES 3700 of 30 year old, right? So, that's why we are building that layer, so that any online player can have access to a physical restaurant. In the benefits, it's really benefiting the restaurants, because they don't need to change the system, but still process and grow online.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). What did the switching costs look like for some of these restaurants, if they go through and upgrade everything, I'm guessing there's employee training? What does the cost look like and then, I'm sure you know the ROI numbers too of employee efficiency and helping out with inventory and all that, what did some of those numbers look like?Zhong:For example, utilizing Deliverect, there's no switching cost, right? So whatever point of sale you have... So, we are integrated over 150 point of sales at the moment and we're adding a lot per month. [Crosstalk]-Stephanie:What if its an old one, that's cloud-based? I'm thinking of some of the restaurants I worked in, I know they weren't cloud-based they were from the nineties.Zhong:So, that makes us unique. We actually, you know, for example, Microsoft RES 3,700. We create tunneling. We set up the software to make that cloud-based, right? So, making [crosstalk] online, is something that we also do. So, that allows you to save really that investment. If you are a small, medium business, one or two restaurants, you probably can switch because you want to have ease of use and the investment buying an iPad is not too hard. But honestly, if you're a restaurant chain, that's a massive move. You're talking about millions to replace and there's also a lot of risk involved, right? So, instead of doing that, if you just deploy Deliverect, you have a full system that allows you to sell online or offline channels and you're fully cloud-based.Zhong:And like I mentioned, the ROI is huge, right? So, whatever top line revenue, we grow at 25, 30%. That's a minimum, right? All of our customers are doing more than that. Second, like I said wastage, but to quantify it, an app or a restaurant that does normal delivery are doing a month, a thousand orders. If you have 8% error rates and per order that's 80 orders, right? If the average is $50 that's a lot of money that you could save so that's one side. And then, finally labor costs. We can reduce that significantly. You can almost save one out of four of your staff, right? So, they can do something else, right? So, that's important.Stephanie:Very cool. Are there any technologies right now that you're watching to integrate into Deliverect? The one thing that comes to mind is crypto and I know even back in 2018, a lot of people were talking about crypto and point of sale systems and how to think about that. Not only accepting payments, but also the back of how it even functions. Is there anything that you guys have on your radar that you're kind of watching right now?Zhong:Well, crypto is interesting, right? I think de-centralization of payments would be interesting. Especially, I think in restaurants, it's a quite high processing fee they pay, especially if they're selling online, right? There's transaction fees. Honestly, I do not think today the technology... The technology is there, but maybe the solution is not there yet to do mass payments, as it's quite heavy to mine these coins. If you want to do like us, where it's millions and millions of transactions on a month, I think that's quite a heavy to do, but we're watching that space.Zhong:I think more interesting for us is, as we have a lot of info about a lot of sales channels is providing or a CRM or a really a customer relation management tool for our restaurants, so that they can manage wherever you're ordering, right? So, maybe you ordered today on Uber Eats and tomorrow on DoorDash and the next day on their own websites. Well, they can say, "Hey Stephanie, thanks for ordering on our website. We're going to give you a promotion or a extra dish." Right? So, these are the things I think, where it's going to really help these restaurants to increase their margins.Stephanie:Yeah. It's like going into an omnichannel world with these delivery systems, so they actually understand where you're coming from and where you've been? And it also seems like there's a lot that they can do around sensors, around inventory and stock. You mentioned that you can connect that with your company product, but also just thinking, how do you do automatically where instead of someone saying, "Oh, we're out of this item or we don't have this product today," it's automatic, because it sees the ingredients getting low. And it's like, "There's nothing coming on the trucks today, so we just have to say green beans aren't on the menu today. So, sorry." And then, it just updates automatically. That's the world I think is coming.Zhong:Well, in the ice cream example, we actually do that. So, once that shop is running low on strawberry. So, first of all, we ask the local vendor to ship more strawberry ice creams, but second of all, we can automatically snooze that product for an hour. We're saying, "Hey, it's out of stock." Right? So, providing all these restaurants operation tools is something that we also care about, because that's how we're going to help these restaurant owners as well.Stephanie:Yeah, I love it. All right. And then the last thing, where do you see Deliverect heading? What are you excited about over the next couple of years?Zhong:Although Deliverect only exists for a two to three years, I think we are only on day one of this offline to online transition. The motto of Deliverect is not even conquer the world, it is conquer the galaxy, right? So, one day we'll be the first that delivers a burger to the moon. That's our motto.Stephanie:You're going to be on Mars [crosstalk]-Zhong:To speed up his colonies. But all jokes aside, I think that's where our ambition is. I think you really need a player like us that stands with the restaurants, power them and allows them to really be successful and thriving online without a different agenda. So, as we go, we want to expand regionally in all sorts of countries and continents and add as many channels as we can, as well point of sale for these restaurants, so that they can thrive online.Stephanie:Very cool. All right. Well Zhong, thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us a little behind the scenes about what Deliverect is all about. Where can people find out more about you and your company?Zhong:Well, you can find a lot of info on website deliverect.com or a link me up on LinkedIn. I'm [inaudible] users. So, no worries if you want to send me a message there.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Zhong:Thank you for your time.

From starting a hedge fund to owning the DTC beauty market in China is a career path you don't hear too often. But that's the winding road that Julian Reis has traveled and along the way he's picked up some critical intel about the ecommerce world and Chinese trends that he shared with me on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.There are a bevy of factors to take into account when entering the Chinese market. From the vast differences in the way consumers shop in China to the sheer volume of consumers that can make a huge boom in sales in a matter of moments, there is a lot to contend with. And how does a brand even get in front of a consumer without traditional ads or email marketing? And what about social media? Or regulations? Julian explains how to take all that information into account and build an ecommerce strategy that lets you win abroad. Plus, he dives into how his company, SuperOrdinary is working with top skincare brands to enter the Chinese market, and some of the experiences that can be expected when embarking on this new path. What a fascinating discussion that was so different than any interviews I have had so far, enjoy!Main Takeaways:It's All Chinese To Me: Brands might want to expand to the Chinese market and believe that there is a huge opportunity there, but rushing into the market without doing the proper research could be a huge mistake. Despite the fact that a lot of information is censored in Chinese, consumers there still find ways to access the content that is important to them. Brands need to get more social awareness, learn about what Chinese consumers are interested in and let their actions reveal whether or not you have a product-market fit before trying to make a splash in that market.Platforms vs. Pages: There has been a bifurcation of ecommerce between platforms and webpages. The debate about where to invest more is coming down to how you see your customers acting. SuperOrdinary's theory of the case is that platforms are the way of the future because at the end of the day, customers spend more time on Amazon and Tmall than on a company's website. Therefore, more focus should be on creating content that drives engagement on those platforms. Boom and Bust: In China, the volume of consumers is so much higher and there is so much more emphasis on influencers and celebrities, that if something goes viral, a brand could do millions of sales in a matter of seconds. Being prepared for that kind of boom is very different from working in the U.S., where you prepare for steady growth over a longer period of time.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Julian Reis, the CEO and Founder of SuperOrdinary. Julian, welcome.Julian:Thank you, Stephanie. Lovely to meet you.Stephanie:I'm happy you're here. I'm glad you're not in Hong Kong. I was a little bit worried at first. Like, it's got to be 2:00 AM for this guy, talking on the show. I mean, I would have also appreciated that, but that's okay. Before we dive in to SuperOrdinary, I want to hear about your background because you have a very fascinating background, and I want to hear what led you to the beauty industry.Julian:Great. Thank you for having me. Well, first of all my background, I'm half Australia, half Chinese Portuguese. I was born in Australia, and at the tender age of five I moved to Singapore, where I followed my parents. My dad was working for Pizza Hut. And my twin brother, who's identical, we grew up in Singapore and we kind of were brought into this world to experience all these different cultures, and really thank my parents for giving us such an international upbringing. We all went to these international schools in Singapore, and then Hong Kong, and really got a flavor for all the different Southeast Asian countries growing up. I went to study in the UK to confuse myself even more, and studied economics at University of Nottingham. And Justin, my brother, was in London at the London School of Economics. And we kind of had these parallel paths where we didn't know what we wanted to do after university. And I was always intrigued by the financial markets when I was at university. I always thought that ... This was at the time when we still had analog Internet, dial-ups. I was always curious to see how people were thinking about this global economy.Julian:I applied to probably 150 jobs after university, and got very disheartened that I couldn't move to Tokyo, which I had this dream to always live in Japan. And I found myself finding a job eventually in New York, at J.P. Morgan. I was one of 3,000 applicants to the markets training program, which was a rotation through JP Morgan training program. And I still don't know how I got it, but I was so thankful. I went to New York without even an interview, and basically phoned from downstairs and told the graduate recruitment officer that, "Hey, I'm downstairs. You might as well see me." And suddenly, I got the job. I feel very, very lucky for that.Julian:Went from there to, as a trader, I was trading derivatives in fixed income, which is straight derivatives. And that really started to shape my career, about thinking about the macro markets and how you need to think about the world. And after three years, I moved back to Asia and found myself working at Deutsche Bank and building my career as a proprietary trader.Julian:And then I realized that I would love to try and build my own business. And in finance, you either work at the lease investment banks as a trader ... Because the idea of a hedge fund was still very new. And when I was 27, I decided to go alone and start my own hedge fund. And tried to rustle up as much money from my friends and family, and realized I didn't have that many friends and family. And started my first hedge fund, which was called Pagoda Capital, which was one of the first macro funds in Singapore. I got acquired by Tudor Capital a year later and became CEO of their Asian business, building out their macro strategies in Singapore and Australia.Stephanie:How did they want to acquire you after a year? What were you doing? You must have been doing something amazing.Julian:You know, it was kind of interesting at the time because we were one of the only funds in Asia doing what we were doing. And there clearly was ... And this actually dovetails into what we're doing now because we saw this opportunity to build a business around the Asian markets, and many of these big, large, successful brands or hedge funds in US wanted to get exposure to this market. And the way they did that was find like-minded individuals who were trading, and eventually we came together and built this business. And Paul Tudor Jones is still, to this day, one of the guys I idolize the most in the world. And that gave me my introduction to the financial markets.Stephanie:Very cool. Okay, so your hedge fund gets acquired. You're working there for a bit. And then what?Julian:And then what? I moved to the UK again, working at a new hedge fund which I founded. And I realized that the common thread to all of this was that I really enjoyed building businesses. And I really felt like from zero to one when you're building a business, it's all about hiring the right people and building successful partnerships. And after a couple of years of working in the hedge fund industry, we entered 2008, which was obviously the financial crisis. And what became really apparent and important to me was that this was not sustainable, and that it was really exciting to see what other opportunities there were for me in my life. And at the time, was a very difficult time because to change out of a career or something that you'd been trained in to move to a completely different industry was very scary. And I thought long and hard about making that decision.Julian:And I met this lady who was starting a Groupon startup, and I said, "Listen, if you decide to do something in beauty, come back to me because I think there's a really big opportunity." And I started to see that the Asian population or the communities were really interested in foreign brands. And I was a founding investor of a company called Luxola, which was the ecommerce 1.0, distributing brands in Southeast Asia. And after two years, was acquired by LVMH to become Sephora's digital presence in Southeast Asia. So, really got an understanding about learning, about building and investing in the beauty side.Julian:And then I thought, well, why not try my hand at building my own brand? So, moved to the US to start a brand called Skin Laundry, which is a skincare brand focused on disrupting services. And really proud of what Skin Laundry has become today. It's now in five countries around the world, in the Middle East, London, Hong Kong and all throughout the US.Stephanie:Did you sell that?Julian:No, I didn't. The brand is still operational. I still remain one of the largest shareholders in the business. But really brought a management team in to really accelerate the brand. I think it's a very unique concept, and continues to be a loved brand by the customers. And I think by working and building a brand on that side, really started to, when I was back in Hong Kong and I noticed in China many of the brands that we were exposed to whilst we were in the US were not available in China. And that's where SuperOrdinary was born.Julian:I moved to Shanghai three and a half, almost four years ago now. And kind of just wanted to study how brands are being bought and sold in China. And then the light bulb went off and said to me, "This is an incredible opportunity. All these digital native brands that we see in the aisle of Sephora and Ulta and Mecca, why aren't they available?" So, I started the company and started hiring my first-year employees in a country that I had very little experience in. And I didn't speak the local language. I could only speak pidgin Mandarin. And I said, "Well, this seems like a big enough challenge. Let's go."Stephanie:That's a niche, [inaudible] opportunity. All these brands should be in China but they weren't. I mean, what are some of the top reasons why brands maybe don't even think about bringing their products to China? Because from the outside, it does feel scary, and regulations. And does the customer there even want what we love here? Seems like very different things that they love versus maybe what I might like. What are some of the reasons that you hear brands are like, "I've never thought about that before"?Julian:Well, I think the first thing which you kind of touched upon is the regulation. First of all, animal testing is obviously something that many of the brands, or most of the brands in our portfolio, goes against the DNA of what they believe in terms of cruelty-free. Luckily on May the 1st, animal testing regulations now be announced to have gone away, which is incredible because it just opens up this huge, untapped, physical market domestically.Julian:I think because of that restriction, it was very difficult for brands to enter China, and so everyone hears of these stories about Chinese tourists coming overseas and bringing back suitcases of products in the suitcases, and reselling them locally. And I think what happened was that the government obviously realized that this was happening and said, "Rather than smuggling products into the country, let's create a channel for these products to enter the country on a legitimate basis, and let's make sure that they're real products, authenticated, they're registered, and then they can be sold."Julian:But in order to do this, this channel which we call the cross-border channel, only limits the amount of products that you can sell to an individual consumer in China on a given month or a given year. There's a quota in terms of absolute R&D value. Whilst it's an exciting channel and it continues to grow, represents close to 20% of the ecommerce market, obviously there are restrictions for that. We started our business as a cross-border business which allows us to work with brands anywhere from Farmacy to The Ordinary, to Drunk Elephant, Supergoop!, and we really have an incredible partner portfolio. And to be able to build their presence in China by creating a profile for them on social media in all the different channels, on Tmall, and really build a brand from zero and continue to grow them there across multiple channels. That's how we started.Julian:Now, we currently have globally close to 300 employees in the company now, most of which are based in China. And I think what we do as a business is really provide that one-stop-shop service where we really build your brand. Where we call ourselves not a distributor. I would almost call ourselves the general manager of your brand in China, because we do everything that you would do as a brand owner by operating your brand in a foreign market.Stephanie:Yeah. What are some of the tests that you do to figure out what the market here even wants this? Because that seems like a big thing. If a brand comes to you and they're like, "I'm selling this," and you're like, "That might not even go well here." What are some things that you think about if a brand should even try to enter China.Julian:Yeah. I think, I mean that's the million dollar question. And I think what we do, we've gotten a lot better at it because I think the consumer there is very discerning, even though a lot of the information about that brand is not readily available on Chinese social media. There are ways to get it, and people do find out about it. What we typically do for any brand that wants to work with us is really have initially a conversation to really understand what the point of difference of the brand is. And really just see if there's a product market fit. We do a lot of desktop research around the brand, not only in its home market but in China to see how big that opportunity is. If someone comes to us and says, "Oh, we want to launch blonde hair dye in Shanghai and we think it's a big market because it's big in the UK," we have to question is there a demand for people to dye their hair blonde.Julian:And I think that's what we do, and we've gotten better at, is we test a lot of the products within our team. We have experts in each of the categories that we manage who really are our first port of call in terms of trying to see if there's an understanding or a demand for this product. Remember, all these brands have zero social awareness, and as the market's got more and more expensive to launch a brand, it's really important for us to make sure that if we get behind it, we're going to be able to spend the marketing dollars to get the brand to where it needs to be for it to make sense financially.Julian:After two weeks of very deep due diligence on the brand, we'll go back to the brand founder and say, "Listen, we think your hero product in America is this, but you know what? Actually in China, we think it's A, B and C." That helps us have this conversation and once we get to that point where we think that there's an alignment, we then start working on financial terms on how we would work together.Stephanie:What's interesting is that your background in the hedge fund world seems like it would be so helpful when coming and analyzing brands, and looking for opportunity.Julian:That's right.Stephanie:And looking at competitors and stuff. I mean, it seems like a perfect fit of how you came about even into this world, which is really fascinating.Julian:I think the hedge fund world really gave me an appreciation of data, and really thinking about data in a different way than I would normally do. For us to, whether it's analyzing the influences that we work with, or analyzing the livestreaming broadcast that we'll do tonight with Austin Li, or analyzing LTV and CAC on the brands that we manage, it's really become you're heavily reliant on it because if you don't rely on it, then you start to not make better decisions.Julian:And what we've done at SuperOrdinary is using that data that we give our brands, our partners, visibility into the consumer in China. And that gives us informed decisions on what products to make next. And I think that's really exciting for our brand partners, to know that this product, this moisturizer, may be too viscous on the skin. Or, this tint doesn't blend well with this lipstick shade. It's too bright. All of this information helps guide their product development. And for us to be successful, they have to be successful in their product development. So, data has become a really big part of our business model.Stephanie:Is there a different way they have to go about collecting the data there? Versus in the US, maybe you would do surveys, you would just directly ask, you would do your email marketing stuff. How would you go about collecting that data in a way that keeps you safe?Julian:Well, I think everything you learnt about business in the US market, you leave at the door when you walk through Shanghai Airport. And I think that's where you have to really come in with eyes wide open to say, "How is the consumer interacting?" First of all, there's no websites in China, so you're working through these platforms. And we have a market in the US where you have a very large amount of websites in the US market, whereas in China you have zero websites. But you have all these platforms. The world's bifurcated between platforms and D2C websites.Julian:And our view at SuperOrdinary is that platform is where the markets head to. The websites are where you discover your brands, you learn more about the content, you go to Instagram, you go to Sephora. But at the end of the day, where do you gravitate to? Well, where you're buying your products, on Amazon, on Tmall, on Lazada. And this is where I think we really try to create this vision of where SuperOrdinary is headed. And it's very important that our brands believe in this strategy too, because this is the direction we think beauty is headed.Julian:In China, I think to your question collecting data, the data that we get is readily available. You can see what people's revenues are by looking at Tmall data. But I think what's interesting is that we have a lot of other platforms, like the equivalent of Reddit and Quora that allow us to see what people are asking about brands. They're looking up ingredients. They're looking up what squalane means. They're asking what hyaluronic acid does to your skin. And that kind of data there is really important.Stephanie:I mean, how would a brand even think about getting in front ... I know you're talking about platforms and different ways to think about it. So any brands here are used to paid media and email marketing and Instagram and all that, so I know you have to just completely turn off all those ideas and start from scratch. How should a brand think about entering a new market? Even trying to get their product there is one thing, but then trying to get the word out, especially if they aren't working with a firm like those. How would they even go about that?Julian:Well, I think that historically, when a brand has entered the market it had a number of choices. One is to go through a multi-brand website that sells products and posts it into China. The problem with that is that your product may or may not get to the end consumer, so there's a lot of risk. That channel is obviously a very small one.Julian:Two is to go in it alone. Go to China, hire a team, spend 10 million dollars. Really go nuts. And after five years, you'll have lots of learnings. Pretty much what I've done, and figure out oh my gosh, there must have been a better way to do this. I'm not only spending a lot of money, but I'm losing time.Julian:Really, the way we approach our playbook ... And it is a playbook, because it is after many years of learnings, is making sure that you focus on the brand and what it stands for, making sure that the messaging behind the brand is consistent. You don't want 16 different platforms saying 16 different things about your brand. And also, the other thing is there's no such thing as seeding. You can't just send out 100 packages and expect to receive 100 posts. So, it opens a pay-per-play environment. And that's because the cultures are very different, too. Understanding the culture is very important to know where is your consumer spending most of the time? I think it would shock most people that 88% of the beauty market is Gen Z and Gen Y, Millennials. And more than 50% are purchasing products on their mobile phone. And they're looking to spend more and more on skincare and color.Julian:I think understanding that just helps you frame how do you, again, those consumers. Where are they spending their time? They're spending their time on TikTok, or Douyin in China. They're spending their time on Little Red Book to discover ... And so we at SuperOrdinary have a very large team now that speaks to over 40,000 influencers or KOLs, directly or through agencies. And I think because SuperOrdinary has a very exciting portfolio of brands, we're able to authenticate the types of brands we work with. So, we're able to work with the very best livestreamers in China. We're probably one of the most active in the livestreaming area. And that creates a lot of awareness around the brand.Julian:Building a brand from zero to one is the hardest part. It's the most expensive part of the curve. And then year two, year three should be easier. Getting it right is very important, so providing a very concise go-to-market strategy, making sure that the messaging, whilst it's in local language and it feels local to the consumer, is not different to what it is in the US. We don't want to be talking about a brand and not be in line with the brand guidelines, but making sure that the emojis, the hashtags, the cute names around the products really make sense to the local consumer. There's a lot of hard work that goes in before we even launch a brand. It's not just putting it on Tmall and then putting a price, which is traditionally what a lot of the local TPs have done. We really feel like you have to take a much stronger brand view about building that channel.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, totally agree. What are some of the biggest surprises, maybe, that brands have? When you're going through and you're working with them and maybe you say, "Okay, but we need to do it this way," or, "This is what they're expecting," or, "Influencers are the way here. It's not just a nice to have like it is here. It's like, this is the way to go." What are some of the surprising things that brands maybe aren't expecting when you work with them?Julian:I think volume. Volumes can get big very, very, quickly. It's not uncommon that you will enter a livestreaming event and will do 3 million in sales in 20 seconds. The market is that much bigger. But at the same time, in the US we're used to growth, very steady, 10, 20% every year. And that's achievable. And in China, something could happen where a very big celebrity will go to London and find your product and talk about it, and then boom. It's all gone in China. You cannot find it. And it's just because the absolute size of the market is that much bigger than the US, and that when the community is all on their phones buying and following these influencers, it's very much an influencer-led market and celebrity-led market. I think that shocks a lot of brands. Why doesn't it have some steady growth?Julian:I think they also realize, the shock, the difference is that it's how text-heavy the interaction with media is. While here in the West we're very visual, in the East it's very much about information. Before you even get to the ingredients, there will probably be seven pages of text telling you about the product, the storyline. And then at the end, there will be some more information about the product itself. It's really important to realize that's how they shop. I think that's another one.Julian:I think yeah, I think also the market there moves very quickly. It's very saturated as well, because everyone sees China as almost like the Holy Grail during the COVID environment. I can't tell you the number of times people have asked me, "Oh yeah, this is a must have." Also, I think on the downside is just measuring people's expectations lower. Just because it's a big market, doesn't mean your first year you're going to do 10 million in sales. It's really about it takes time to build a brand. Five years, minimum, in the global market, so why should it be any different in China? My advice is really be patient with your brand. If you give it the love and tender, loving care over the next five years to make sure that it's there in five years. You don't want something doing this and doing this.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, that's what I was kind of thinking when you said okay, you could do 3 million in sales in a matter of seconds. How could a brand think about setting up maybe a longer-term strategy there? Because when I'm putting on my US-centric view, I'm like okay, you've got SEO stuff, you're getting to the top and you start ranking, and then people see you more because you've proved that you're best long term, and Amazon do the same thing. And there, it feels like if it's so based on maybe influencers and celebrities, because you can have these blips of when you can get in front of people. How do you maintain a brand there long term, where it's not just crazy sales and then to until you have your next celebrity or influencer talking about you again? How do you think about that?Julian:I do think that's a billion dollar question. Really believe.Stephanie:I do those in my head, billion dollar questions.Julian:Because I feel like China has gotten to a cycle or a rhythm of doing shopping festival after shopping festival, whether it's 11.11, 12.12, 618, Secretary Day. These events become so gravitational for the consumer because they know they're going to get the best offers on those days. Naturally brands, if you don't participate in them, you miss the traffic which helps get you more and more awareness.Julian:I think channel dispersion is important because you don't want to be so focused on one channel versus the other. But I think with the opening up of the market with the removal of animal testing it's going to allow us to become a much more measured approach. And what I mean by that is just imagine if you could only sell your brand through Target. And you live and die by Target's traffic. Of course you're going to play along the rules that Target might have given you to go and say, "Oh, here you go and sell that."Julian:If you can imagine that you can leave Target now and open up in all these different retailers in the US, now you have a lot more control about your brand. Just like that in China, I think we're going to have this opportunity to build brands in a much more succinct manner, and open the doors that we think best represent the brand and not have to scattergun it through all these different social channels.Julian:And also, it's fair to say that the consumer now will get to touch the brand and the product for the first time in these physical stores. And it's not just Sephora. There's seven to 10 other competitors in China which have got insane new retail experience, so I think the market there is 10 to 15 years ahead of the US in many ways. And that's another shock to most brands, is like, "Oh my God. This really, truly exists?"Stephanie:Yeah. What are some of these experiences that are so far ahead that maybe we should be looking into?Julian:Yeah. I think the consumer, when they go to a retail store in China, traditionally you go to a Sephora which is really much about it's glossy black, it's got music, you've got these beauty assistants that will come in and they would really sell you the product. China has also gone the other way, where they've removed all the beauty assistants and you go in there and it almost feels like a ghost town. But you get to try all these product and sample sizes. There are examples of that. And there's a shop called Harmay, H-A-R-M-A-Y, you can Google it, have a look. It looks like a museum. And they're 10,000 square feet, and it's very Instagram-able. That's a word. But it's one of these things that I think has really changed the way that people are interacting, because people want to drive traffic towards the door, there has to be a reason. Especially when you can buy everything online.Julian:I think that's really exciting. And I think I always get asked the question of, why is livestreaming working in China versus US?Stephanie:Yeah. That's a big one. Whenever people have come on here and talked about ... We had one guest who taught Harvard, and they brought a livestreamer from China over to show how many Harvard t-shirts they could sell, or hats or something. And it was insane. But then also it was like, I don't know if that would work here. I don't know. I just doesn't feel like a similar market around how it was happening. I don't know, it just didn't feel very familiar.Julian:Yeah. I think culturally, in the US and the West we don't like to be sold to. And that's why Instagram is very much a place where you build relationships with the other person. I think that's fundamentally where the big difference is. And remember, livestreaming in China is a business. These livestreamers are starting work at 6:00 PM and clocking off at 2:00 AM, and they do that 365 days a year because it's a business. And they have tens of people underneath them that are helping them bring in product to talk about. I think when you think about this is your starting block, and when you think about in the West, I don't think people will approach livestreaming in the same manner.Julian:I think at the end of the day, the winner in livestreaming in my view is that it will be the platform. I would make a bet that Amazon would probably be the leader eventually, because they're the ones that are going to be able to fulfill and deliver multiple brands and multiple products to the consumer in a very fast fashion. However, it's exciting to watch all these new platforms come about into the space.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any other trends that you see happening in China right now that you're like, this could work in the US? Or, this should definitely be brought back because people would love that here?Julian:I think China's done a really incredible job of cross-collaborations with really interesting partners, like very nonsensical to the West. I don't know. In the West, you'd see a clothing brand pair up with a skincare brand. But in China, they'll go KFC will do something with a perfume brand. Or, a bubble tea will work with Fenty Beauty. Really, they like to think out of the box in the market, and I think that's really exciting.Julian:I do like the idea of sampling. I think sampling is something that the US has always been involved with, these boxes that get delivered to the customer and these subscription boxes, whether it's Birchbox or BoxyCharm and all these different ones. In China, I see that there's this interest to go and try sample size products at stores. I think that could eventually translate over here, and I think that would be well received.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, I think about Costco. I wonder how much business they've lost because people like samples.Julian:They do, yeah.Stephanie:I mean, yeah. It seems like there is the stores that are okay with letting you try everything. And I know COVID mixed that up a bit and made it harder to do that, but I wonder if it will lean heavier into that because they think that's such a great way to sell. But it seems like some brands are kind of stingier, like I don't want to give this away for free. And it'd be interesting to have a case study of like well, when you get a sample, here's the ROI and the LTV just based off that one, little, teeny sample that you did give away consistently. Not just once a week when you send someone in to be an ambassador.Julian:Yeah. No, I think that's really exciting. I do love the idea that I think the US is incredible at creating these ideas. [inaudible] has done a great job and really given the consumer a more accessible way to try products. But we have to always ask ourselves the question, what's going to drive the end plus one customer to go to the next multi-brand beauty store? And I don't know about you, but how many times do I get ... I'm buying my groceries online because I don't to go and queue up. I mean, this is the trend and it's accelerating faster and faster.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah, I agree. The one thing I'm thinking about now too is that it feels like in some ways, the US and Chinese buyers are the same, and in other ways very different. Thinking about the sale aspect where it's like, that's big in China. And actually, it's kind of like going away here. Why are we doing these Black Friday events? There's no point. And that's once difference.Stephanie:And the other one I'm thinking about is all these new D2C companies popping up where you see consumers here kind of falling in love with the brand, which is very different than maybe even five years ago. And maybe you didn't always know who the brand was behind the product. Are the buyers in China similar, or are they not really open to new brands? Or do they not really want to hear about the story? What are the differences there?Julian:I think for example when we started SuperOrdinary, we saw this opportunity to bring clean beauty into China. Which at the time, there was no social listing around clean beauty. If you checked out clean beauty packaging, clean ingredients, there was really nothing there. And that was very important. I think the US, where they're ahead of China in this respect, is the brand story, the mission behind it. What does the brand stand for? What's the why? I think those types of ideas are becoming more and more important in China. We're starting to see brands really care about the environment, the packaging, what they do. The say/do ratio, we call it. Julian:But I think one of the learnings we had, and it's why I think SuperOrdinary, we moved to the US to really build out the Amazon business. Because we saw the opportunity of what we were doing in China and reapplying that to beauty on Amazon. Everyone knows the story that there are rogue sellers on Amazon. There's plenty of opportunity. And over one third of all beauty purchases are now on Amazon. And it's like this dirty, little secret we all know. We're all purchasing our toilet paper, our mineral water on Amazon, so why don't we buy our skincare?Julian:We set up a team. We have a team just under 25 people here in the US focusing on building brands, the story, making sure their D2C websites look exactly like they do on Amazon. And it's just been really exciting, because in five years' time from now, I think if you ask yourself the question, "I want to buy a product today and I want it on my doorstep in 30 minutes, who's the player that's going to be able to do that?" And it's not your own D2C website. It's really the part that can actually have the tentacles everywhere that's going to be able to do that.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be huge. All right, well with a couple of minutes left let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I ask a question, and you have a minute or less to answer.Julian:Oh, wow.Stephanie:Are you ready, Julian?Julian:Let's go.Stephanie:All right. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Julian:I would invite Anthony Bourdain. I just think he's the coolest guy, and I really enjoyed his international aspect on traveling and eating. I love eating.Stephanie:Yeah? He'd be your perfect guy?Julian:Yeah.Stephanie:So, a show all about eating and food, then. I like that.Julian:Yeah, exactly. Definitely nothing to do with ecommerce.Stephanie:Yeah. That's good. Well, when you want to stay on top of new trends that are popping up, how do you stay on top of that? Where do you go? What are you looking at? Yeah, how do you know what's hot?Julian:I'm lucky enough to have three boys, who are 16, 14 and 12.Stephanie:Oh, so they know.Julian:Who keep me on my toes, yeah. I actually ask them, and they find everything on Twitch. I usually ask them, and then they frown at me like, "Dad, what are you doing in makeup?"Stephanie:You can ask makeup stuff on Twitch? Wow. That might be a new-Julian:Yeah, it is. It's true.Stephanie:What do they ask?Julian:Well, they just find out ... They know everything from men's grooming, and they get targeted. And it's so funny, because the young one, he said, "Dad, what's manscaping?" I'm like, "Where did you learn that from?"Stephanie:We'll talk about that later.Julian:I'm learning about new projects and new things all the time.Stephanie:Oh my gosh. That's awesome. That could be a whole, new trend there. Go on Twitch. Ask the people. They'll let you know what all the trends are.Julian:That's right.Stephanie:What was an idea that you thought was brilliant but ended up failing?Julian:Oh, I've got so many of those. I'm trying to think of the one that's the least embarrassing.Stephanie:You have embarrassing?Julian:During COVID, I was like, wow. I was thinking about everyone is staying at home. Everyone is on these Zoom class, why doesn't people create comfortable clothes? Maybe I should start a pajama company. And I quickly had a handbrake on that. So, I didn't do that. But I've also done other things. What else did I do? I invested in a pool cleaning company back in the day, and that was my first, real investment. And I had a very big learning from that because I gave them all the money upfront. And the second day, he never showed up for work. I'm like, "Huh. That was a bad trade."Stephanie:Never saw that dude again? Oh my gosh.Stephanie:All right, what's up next on your reading list?Julian:On my reading list. I guess I'm a creature of habit. I think one of the books I wish I read 20 years ago, it was available, was Ray Dalio's Principles.Stephanie:Yes. So good.Julian:I think he gives you this honest look at yourself. It's very introspective. And tells you how to build teams. I recommend everyone in the world to read that book over and over and over again.Stephanie:Yeah. He's such an interesting person. All his philosophies, and I think yeah, he came and spoke at Google when I was there. And just how he thinks about rating his employees, have you read about this?Julian:Oh yeah, of course.Stephanie:You get a rating.Julian:I know.Stephanie:And if you're this level, you actually just probably shouldn't speak up until you get to this level, but everyone gets access to everything.Julian:I know. The scorecard is like a baseball card. I mean, but it gives you a very different perspective about radical transparency. And also, teaching you how to take constructive criticism in a positive way, knowing that collectively the information in the room will allow you to make better decisions.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Love that book. Well, awesome. Well, Julian, I've loved having you on the show. If people are trying to get into China and they're looking for help, where can people find out more about you and SuperOrdinary?Julian:Yeah. We have a website, SuperOrdinary.co. Not .com. Thank you, whoever took that website away from us. We'll find you. Or, reach me on JulianReis, R-E-I-S, @SuperOrdinary.co. Really, thank you so much, Stephanie. You're wonderful. It's so nice to speak to you.Stephanie:Thanks so much. It's been awesome.

The future of commerce is being built all around us, and while so much of the industry changes on a daily basis, there are still some fundamental truths that anchor brands and allow them to find success in the digital and retail worlds. On this roundtable episode of Up Next in Commerce, I got to dig into exactly what those foundational elements are with Mike Black, the CMO of Profitero, and Diana Haussling, the VP and General Manager of Digital Commerce at Colgate-Palmolive.This was such a great discussion that touched on so many different topics that brands big and small should be paying attention to. For example, what are the three key levers that influence ecommerce sales? How should you be developing KPIs that will actually mean something and lead to more profitability and growth? Why is omnichannel the way of the future and what channels should companies be investing in? Mike and Diana have the answers, which they have gathered through long and impressive histories in the ecommerce world — Mike worked at Staples and Nielsen, and Diana has held roles at places like Campbell's, General Mills, and Hersheys. These two really know their stuff and they were so much fun to talk to. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!  Main Takeaways:Pulling the Right Levers: There are three basic levers that influence ecommerce sales: availability, findability, and conversion tactics. If you can't ensure that you reliably have products to offer people, that those people have an easy way to find the products, and that they are given reasons to actually make a purchase, you won't be able to grow or increase profits. You Reap What You Sow: Being a first-mover on any platform is one of the investments that has the highest potential payoffs. Companies that took Amazon and Instacart seriously from the get-go have created a huge advantage for themselves in the ecommerce space. By having a head start in one place, you also free yourself up to explore elsewhere while your competition tries to keep up in the first spot you've already dominated.You Want Them to Want You: As a brand, you have to firmly establish a value proposition to present to customers, especially when you are trying to extract information or gather data about them. Give customers concrete reasons to want to engage with your brand and earn their trust so that they are more likely to keep coming back. Then use the data they give you to provide even better experiences and products over and over.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, everyone. And welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today, we are back with an awesome round table with some amazing folks. First up, we have Diana Haussling, who currently serves as the VP and General Manager of Digital Commerce at Colgate-Palmolive. Welcome.Diana:Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation.Stephanie:Me too. And next we have Mike Black, who's the CMO of Profitero. Mike, welcome to the show.Mike:Thank you very much. Also, very excited.Stephanie:Yeah. This is going to be a good one. I can just feel it. I can see the energy between you guys. I can see you got a lot to say. So, it's going to be a good one. So, I would love to start as I always do with a bit of background so people know who we're chatting with. So, Diana, maybe if you could start with… I see you have a long history in the world of CPG work for… I mean the most well-known brands that I can think of, and I was hoping if you can kind of go through that journey a bit?Diana:Yeah. So, I've been lucky enough to work at four major CPG organizations. I cut my teeth with Hershey in sales and really was able to understand, not only retail, but direct customer selling. Moved over to General Mills where I stiffed my toe in the water in marketing. Loved working on those brands and getting a taste of a larger organization. And then I shifted to Campbell's where I spent the bulk of my time. Campbell's will always have a special place in my heart.Diana:I spent a lot of times there, ping-pong back and forth between marketing and sales. I created a couple of roles for myself. One of which was the lead of e-commerce, where I established the e-commerce organization there before leaving and coming to my new love, Colgate-Palmolive. Super excited to be part of the Colgate family. I lead a digital commerce team called the Hive. It had that name before I got there. But I'm attributing it to the Beyonce now that I'm there.Stephanie:I love that.Diana:I'm so super excited to be at Colgate. There's just a ton of energy and growth around e-commerce and our primary focus is on digital transformation which is a perfect segue for this conversation.Stephanie:Yes. I can't wait to get into that. All right, Mike, a bit about you.Mike:Yeah. So, I started my career in retail. I started my first real job was at Staples, the office products company. And I was responsible for public relations there. Opening new stores in different markets, and really got a firsthand look at how retailers, traditional retailers were being disrupted by e-commerce. The time that I was at Staples was right at the time that Amazon started to make its ways. And I could see the impact of that just in the way that Staples was going to market, and they started to really dial up their own e-commerce efforts to combat.Mike:So, it was really interesting to see that pivotal moment inside from a retailer, classic brick and mortar retailer go through that transformation. So, I started my career there, then I started working in startups. And I eventually found my way to Nielsen. So, I worked in the part of Nielsen where we tested new product innovations for CPGs and worked in their measurement and analytics. And while I was at Nielsen, that's my first exposure to e-commerce and first exposure to this new emerging space of analytics.Mike:And I knew this was the place I wanted to be. It was in the e-commerce space, the intersection of e-commerce and data analytics, and that led me to Profitero where I am now. And we're getting to work with smart people like Diana who is someone I listen to her speak, and then I take notes. And then I sort of borrow some of her wisdom, and she's someone I'm always learning a lot from.Diana:Right back at you, Mike. And if you don't follow him on LinkedIn, you should, because he leads all social for Profitero, which isn't in his CMO title.Stephanie:Wow. I like this. Diana's like your hype woman. So, this is a good match we have here.Mike:The feeling is mutual.Stephanie:Yeah. That's awesome. So, Diana, I mean I'm thinking about you starting an e-commerce team at Campbell's. And then coming to Colgate where they already kind of have one set up, and I'd love to hear a bit about what is it like now versus then? Because I can just imagine you being like, “This is important everyone and I need some budget for it and this is going to be a thing.” Whereas now, it's like obvious. Like, “Yeah. Jump in. Let's go deep and spread the word.”Diana:Yeah. I think, and I'm sure this will ring true to a lot of my fellow CPGers and the struggle on the e-commerce business. If you're at an organization, and this is a completely new space, but you have leadership that definitely sees the potential and the opportunity, it really becomes on you to not only operationalize, but really help leaders understand how to translate e-commerce, how to translate digital to a P&L, to growth projectors, to a strat plan. All those things CPG people are really comfortable with.Diana:And then also to really think about not only what your org needs to be like to get things off the ground, but where it needs to go in the next three years. And typically, you're not in the position where the organization truly understands how to make that work. So, there is a kind of this hybrid role that digital commerce folks have to play in emerging organizations where they're really helping folks navigate, what IT support do I need? What supply chain support do I need? Where should everything sit?Diana:And you can do it on your own, but you can also partner. So, there's a number of groups you can partner with. I happen to know that Profitero has done a lot in this space, and they have, basically, a journey for organizations that you can leverage. But it really is like starting from scratch and building a case for growth. I think the biggest question that you get when it comes to just starting up in an organization is how is this incremental to the business?Diana:And my pushback to that always is, it's not about incrementality. Incrementality is a bonus. It really is all about protecting your base business, going where consumers are going, and ensuring that you future proof your organization for the reality of what our new world is, which is omni. It's slightly different when you come into an organization like Colgate who already has a established e-commerce team or Center of Excellence.Diana:I definitely feel like I came to the land of the willing. Everyone, from the top down, is really excited and energized by the space. And that it's energizing, but it also means you have to redirect all of those good intentions and positive energy to the right focus and the right goal. So, some of the work when you're in a more established organization is really, how do I harness all of those resources when they are abundant? And make sure they're spent in the right places and they deliver. Because there's going to come a time where leadership is going to look back on that cash that they threw in e-commerce, and they're going to say, "What did I get for it?" And you better have delivered on it.Diana:I think the other piece is making sure you understand how to integrate across the organization. It's important to have a strong center, but it's even more important to make sure everybody understands the role that they play in digital, in e-commerce regardless of if they're on the badass teams like the Hives of the world.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean the one thing I hear a lot of brands struggling with though are around metrics. I mean from working at bigger companies in the past, I've seen people kind of come up with KPIs in a way that, it's kind of made up. Stephanie:So, when thinking about big and small brands thinking through like KPIs and metrics, feels like kind of a messy world where when you get to the bigger organizations, some of them can start to feel like they're just kind of being forced. Like, "Oh, see, we have it. And if you look in three years, maybe it's like not even relevant. And then the smaller companies are like, "Well, how do we even start?"Stephanie:And so, I'm wondering, how do you go about even thinking about developing KPIs, thinking about brand building, thinking about conversions. Is there some kind of allocation you had going into it of like, "Here's what should be spent on just holding down the fort, and here's what should be spent on acquiring new customers and thinking through the LTV and everything."Diana:For me, that's a marriage between two points. It's the external data and viewpoint. So, where do you have an actual right to win? Where are the white space opportunities? And where are their growth that you're not getting your fair share of? Really understanding that industry landscape is really critical to forming your strategy.Diana:What you want to avoid is just forming a strategy that's based off of internal goals and objectives, because you may not be able to deliver against that. It's a marriage between the two. Then, it's getting really clear internally on what winning looks like. There is a high cost to acquisition, but there also is a huge penalty if you don't ride the momentum and the wave of growth while it's happening.Diana:I use Skype and Zoom during the pandemic as an example of that. Skype had a foothold on the industry. Zoom came in out of nowhere and won the pandemic. You don't want to be Skype. So, how do you ensure that you position yourself and your brands, so you not only understand what the CEO and the board wants you to deliver, but also you're pushing on what are the right levers in order to get there? Because your brick and mortar business is not going to mirror your e-commerce business. It's going to be slightly different.Diana:And then you have to understand those points where there's intersection. So, right now, we're seeing growth across all modalities or modes of shopping. So, there is this real digital impact on the physical brick and mortar footprint. And the onus is on the digital commerce team to make sure they understand what that impact can do, and they're not only influencing the KPIs that drive e-commerce, but they're helping the brick and mortar business understand the KPIs they need to maintain competitive edge. But also to hold their shelf space, their promo space, and their capacity within the total retailer environment.Mike:Yeah. Just to build on what Diana said. I've noticed a shift just in vocabulary and positioning in the last probably three months with e-commerce leaders. They used to really talk about e-commerce as e-commerce, and it was really about winning in that channel. And I've noticed this language shift towards now repositioning around this idea of digitally influenced sale, and taking credit for all the work that you do online that drive sales.Mike:And you think about it, most, and it's true. Most shopping experiences are happening much… Even if you go in a store, you're researching online, you're looking at content. You're doing a search to see if it's even available at your local Target. And what comes up in that digital experience is going to dictate whether you go to that store or not. So, it's just so much more impact that I think goes into your e-commerce that I don't think e-commerce leaders were really fairly taken credit for. But I noticed this, Diana, you probably… And it sounds like you're starting to speak this languages.Mike:It's like almost every sale is digitally influenced now. And so, that investment, I think it breaks down the barriers between the brick and mortar teams when they start to realize that their success isn't independent. It isn't just e-commerce and I don't have to care about it. Actually, will have a full cycle, and you see some retailers, really, I believe the sticking point comes when you have a retailer like Walmart who starts to say, "Hey, you have to talk to me in the language of omnichannel."Mike:And now, when they set that tone and being as influential as you are, I see them starting to drive this different consensus. So, I think the metrics have changed in some ways, the language has changed and I think we're starting to reframe that it isn't just e-commerce, but just commerce now. And I think that's going a long way.Stephanie:Yeah. That is why we label the podcast, Up Next in Commerce, because we knew, we saw the writing on the wall, so just several notes, we were first. So, how are you going about even thinking about that tracking? I mean if you're saying a sale is digitally influenced, in my head I'm like, "How? How would you even know that?" So, what are some ways, either Mike that you see brands kind of attacking that problem or Diana, how's Colgate thinking about that?Diana:Mike, you got this one. This is your [crosstalk].Mike:Yeah. I'd say like basically, I mean the way that we think about your metrics really goes down to the levers, right? The levers that influence your sales in e-commerce, really comes down to like three basics. And there's some, the one is the first lever. Most important is that you're available. So, that your product is even listed and it's not out of stock. That was a major issue last year, and a lot of brands are still feeling that repercussion, and that has a lot of impact.Mike:So, if you go to Amazon, and you're looking for a particular product, it's not there. You better believe consumers are going to switch, and we saw that switching, and that switching is very painful online, because the loyalty can go, and then you don't have that repeat. So, first and foremost you think about, "Okay, we got to be available." It's just like being in store. You got to have the product there on the shelf.Mike:Then, the next big lever is being findable. And that's what's really interesting, when you're in a traditional store, you walk into a store, you knew that your product, you sold it in at the beginning of the year, the planogram. That, yeah, your product was going to be on the shelf, and they're just going to replace it. But in the digital store that changes every day, and we've done like 24-hour video views of search results on Amazon, and the products are just changing constantly shifting.Mike:And so, findability is really being keen to what terms your customers going to search for, and then being there all the time in the top of the results, and we have seen that if you're not on page one, and sometimes not even in page, in the first five spots, you might as well not even be there, because you're not findable. So, that's like your second lever.Mike:And then your third is really about your conversion levers. Having that content and having those reviews, and that's probably one of the most transferable things between the online and the offline experience, because there's so much discovery and learning and research is being done, and that's one of the things that Amazon has done a great job and recognized, they've given consumers so much real estate, so much space. Places for videos, place for content.Mike:And I think most of us, if we're going to look for a new product, we're going to start on Amazon. We're going to soak in that information and make informed decisions. So, if you look at it, it's all right. Well, my end game has got to be available. I got to be findable, showing them a search. I have to have good content. And then if those things are true, you start to gather metrics, and that's actually what Profitero is doing is we're able to help brands understand across all the sites you're selling. Are they available? Are they findable? Are they converting? And ultimately what we know is if you pull those levers, and you optimize those levers, your sales are going to grow, and you're going to outpace the competition.Mike:And to Diana's point, the very, very important thing that grounds all this is having a sense of your competitive growth, because you need to be able to define, like Diana said, not define success in your own terms. But you have to be able to see how your competitors are growing in that category, and if you look at 2020, everybody grew, pat yourself on the back. But if you knew that your competitor grew at like 2x or 3x, that's a wake-up call, there's something you're not doing that they're doing. And so, it's really important that you balance those tactical levers of the shelf with just this overall having sales metrics and not just looking at your own. And these are all data points that are now available through technology and Diana can speak about how they're actioned.Diana:Yeah. I would say the digital commerce starter kit is definitely, first and foremost, digital shelf health and discipline. That's a game changer. If you're not winning there, and you're not going to win, we spend so much time as marketers really focusing on our packaging and understanding the importance and the value of packaging.Diana:Well, in this new world, the digital shelf is your new packaging. It's your new end cap. It's your new aisle. So, how do you think about digital shelf and the discipline there really is going to translate into your competitive set, because now consumers can define what that competitor set is. It's going to really define your conversion rates. Does your content help consumers really understand how to use your product?Diana:And it's also going to impact your ratings and reviews. Does your content enable your consumers to have the experience that they're expecting when they see you online? So, it really does fuel all of the potential for your growth. And I said once you have that starter kit up and running, then you really have to take a step back, and think about, what are the other KPIs? We tend to really focus on marketing and sales when it comes to digital commerce. But this game is won and lost with supply chain, IT, and finance.Diana:So, starting back with supply chain, IT, and finance and setting yourself up to be profitable, to be deliverable, and to be flexible is really how you can break away from the pack.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. What are some surprises? And maybe Mike this is a question for you. What are some surprising platforms or channels when you're talking about, everyone did well, but some brands maybe did double or triple compared to other ones? What are some surprises there that you're seeing or things that are happening right now, you're like, "This platform's kind of popping up or people are pulling off of this one?"Mike:Yeah. Well, just specifically in terms of platforms, I think, well, in terms of like retail platforms, I think part of it is I think last year was really about the relevance of certain platforms jumped up. So, I think most brands that took e-commerce seriously, took Amazon very seriously from the get-go, I think last year Instacart became the platform that everyone's, especially in CPG space said, "Okay, this is serious now." People were going there first and foremost, it was a lifeline in terms of getting delivery.Mike:And suddenly now, what that creates is an opportunity to be first in market. And I think there's an advantage with any platform to be the first mover, and there's reasons why. Amazon's a good example of a platform that favors brands that have good sales history. So, if you excelled, really, if you were like the first let's say pet brand a couple years ago to rock Amazon, what happened is that you were excelling at all your execution, your sales are going up, and you start to organically just get higher placement, because Amazon favors brands that are relevant.Mike:And so, if you're really selling, they're going to give you that top space. And you see that same dynamic in Instacart, and in grocery too, because what happens is on a grocery site, people usually buy groceries off a list. And so, the first time they place orders on an Instacart or grocery, they're building their list. And then the next time it's a reordered list. So, there's a huge advantage to be a first mover on a platform and to build that purchase history, because it drives your repeat rates.Mike:And so, what we saw last year was just a lot of brands stepping up, and saying, "You know what? We're going to capitalize this. We're going to be early. We're going to invest in ads. You were going to get it, get that top of mind share." And I think they're going to reap the rewards now for the rest of year. So, you can look at it from a platform perspective, sometimes being first to market on these platforms, taking e-commerce seriously can give you a long-term sustainable advantage.Stephanie:I wonder if consumers are changing because of this past year or two, it seems like consumers are looking for the newer thing, the D2C company that's kind of like just saw it on Instagram. I feel like even myself, I go to Amazon, I see a lot of brands that I know. I'm kind of like, "Ah, keep scrolling." I've known of these brands for 10 years. Of course, they're number one. They've been around a long time. Let me find this deodorant that just popped up. Oh, cool. It's natural. It has all the things that I want, but it might be pretty far down or I'm even getting to a place where I'm kind of skeptical that Amazon might not even have it. And I might just need to go to the website or maybe go to, I don't know, Target and browse through and try and find it. What are you guys thinking around that?Diana:I love everything that you're saying there, but the insights background in me is super excited around the fact that we all went through a life change at the same time. So, if you think about that, typically, when you have a baby, your consideration set changes, your lifestyle changes, which are open too. New households with second babies tend to buy a washing machine within that first week that they bring that baby home, because they're like, "Crap, I'm not dealing with all this laundry on my own."Diana:But we all went through that change, collectively had a baby at once and changed how we operate, how we think, what we're open to, what our consideration set is. So, insights teams out there should be real hype right now, because it's an opportunity for them to really take a deep dive in and rethink brand positioning and audiences. So, exactly what you're talking about, people are more open or more exposed or they realize how connected they are to certain brands, and then they were willing to go direct to that brand to purchase those items to ensure that they were getting, and they're going to sign up for subscription because they're not going to be out of that brand like they were, toilet paper, those first few weeks of the pandemic.Diana:So, I think it's a huge opportunity for brands to really think through, really around who your audience is, your target audience is? Are you capturing them? So, this is your defense strategy. Am I getting them? They're switching from platform to platform. I was getting them when they were going in the brick and mortar store, am I getting them when they're going into Instacart? Is my item showing up? So, making sure you're getting that first basket because the first basket is everything.Diana:Then, there should be a real acquisition strategy. Who do I have the right to go after because now they're open to me, they're open to my brand or they're open to new things and ideas? And that's where brands can really leverage their suite of their portfolio to really drive that cross shop. So, I think this is a huge opportunity if brands jump on it to really connect with consumers. I never used to work out before the pandemic, but then when I was stuck at home, in the same room that I sleep in, and then working in. I was like, "Well, I need to do something."Diana:Peloton got me. I don't like working out. I like the community. I like the gamification. I want to pretend that I'm one of their instructors with the jewelry on and super cool. And I'm not, so they totally got me. And now I'm working out three days a week. That's a whole habit that I never had before, and so it's just ripe for opportunities for brands to not only grow within their traditional channels, but to acquire new consumers in new channels.Stephanie:Yeah.Mike:Yeah. Just to build on that. There's no single consumer anymore, and there's no single retailer. I think there's, me personally in my own house, takes… We shop at eight different retailers to stock our house now online. There's certain things that Target does well, there's certain things Amazon does well. There's certain missions, when I'm in discovery mode like you described, yeah. When I want to go find something and be inspired, I might look at Amazon.Mike:When I have a mission where I just need to stock up, I might go to Walmart. I might go to BJ's or Costco. So, what's really interesting and what's really challenging is you can't just… The brands that are going to win are the ones that can do this well at scale effectively. They recognize that their consumer is everywhere, that they're shopping for different, in different occasions. Convenience, different factors, and they realize like you have to be everywhere, you want to be available and you want to show up.Mike:And I think that's the next play, and that's what makes omnichannel really exciting is you have those brands that maybe nailed Amazon, and they're comfortable, but the next level of this game is, all right, now we have to operationalize this at scale across all our retailers teams, and those brands that are on top of that in making those driving that change, internally to be there everywhere. Those are going to be the ones are going to pick up that market share in the next year, and next two years.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean how do you think about for brands needing to be everywhere? I mean I'm thinking about like you said, the shopper, when I'm at Costco, I'm in a different mindset. And I might want to see a slightly different version of a product whereas when I'm on Amazon or when I'm in Target which feels higher end maybe than a Walmart. How would you think about a brand should handle that now that they have to be everywhere, but also have very different consumers everywhere in a different mindset depending on where they're shopping?Diana:I mean that's where portfolio roles and retailers segmentations really come into play. It's not the sexy work, but it's the work that has to be done. And it can't just be done at a very high level anymore, it really has to be done at the SKU level, because there are some multi-packs they're going to pop in certain modalities at certain retailers, there's some SKUs that just have a better fit. The brand teams that are able to really get that portfolio role and customer segmentation right are going to be able to invest to win, because as retail media costs grow, the cost of service grow, dollars, that bucket of dollars hasn't gotten any bigger. So, it's about being smarter about how and where you invest and really thinking thoroughly through how what you're expecting to get from that dollar.Diana:So, sometimes it's going to be a ROAS, sometimes it's going to be data, sometimes it's going to be something else. But really having clear business objectives for every dollar that's spent.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. Mike, anything to add?Mike:Yeah. No. I think, Diana, like portfolio strategy is it's funny like there's been this like sea change I think when early stages of e-commerce or at least my observation, there's so much excitement that you get the marketing teams are just spending dollars, right? It's about growth. We're just going to buy some ads. And then all of a sudden, you see this diminishing returns. All of a sudden the things you were spending ads on, oh, they're always out of stock or they're getting de-listed.Mike:And that's a symptom and really it's like this idea, and you mentioned Diana, it's like marketing and supply chain are the best friends in the e-commerce. It's a weird thing because I'm a marketer, and you think, but it has to be because unless… You almost have to flip the funnel. And I thought it's like you got traffic, you get conversion. And then you get to like profitability. You have to flip it. And I think that's the flip now is thinking about your portfolio from consumer dimension, profitability dimension across your retailers. If you don't set those clear lines up, you don't set that definition up, this has a downstream effect.Mike:And you see this a lot on retailers where it's like, "Okay. Well, I have the same products everywhere, so what happens?" Well, if Walmart drops the price, Amazon drops prices and suddenly that thing that you're spending ad dollars on, you can't even, it's not even there. So, I think this is like the next generation is like almost like, "All right, let's break it back. Let's work backwards now. Let's start fresh, and let's build that from the portfolio."Mike:And then, once we make that clean, we're just going to see this uplift and our cost to serve, our cost of marketing is going to be super-efficient versus just throwing dollars at it without a strategy.Diana:That's not just for the manufacturers. I also feel really strongly that that benefits the retailers. They don't want to comp prices back and forth. They want a unique value proposition for their consumers. So, how can you help the retailers achieve their objectives? If Kroger's going after young households, and young families, what's your solution to help them go after them? If Target's going after the black consumer, how are you helping them capture as many black guests as possible? How are you really thinking about not only the strategy, so it benefits you, so it also really does align with your retailer strategy?Diana:That's how you create a win-win scenario, and you avoid the competitive pricing pressures that we're all experiencing right now.Stephanie:Yeah. How do you find a good partnership with these retailers? Because I'm sure when they have so many brands they're working with and everyone probably wants to talk with them a little bit differently, and they have different ways that they want to help them or work with them, how do you think a successful partnership looks like or what does that structure look like?Diana:I think this is why the digital commerce space has to exist in this kind of hybrid world, because I feel like marketers take a really consumer human first mindset. Sales people tend to be very like sales for sales focus. In the middle you have to be this hybrid. I do take a customer first approach to an extent because you have to understand your customer strategies. Target's earnings call just came out this week or last week, and they talked about how 90% of all their sale is digital or physical are coming from stores.Diana:That's an insight for me to strategy. So, if I want to win at Target, I've got to understand how they tick, how they operate, and how I can help support their strategies, and their executions. So, it's really that intersection between, what our brand teams are trying to accomplish? Our sales teams targets, and our retailer strategies, and where we can actually play.Diana:From a Colgate-Palmolive perspective, I'm not going to be able to help them win in every single element of their strategy. But there are areas that I am going to be able to help them lead or give them a perspective that can influence other sections. And I think the more and more we play those roles, the more valuable that you show up to a retailer, the more inclined they are to partner with you.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean I feel like that's a life principle. You just did your research on the brand, the company, you looked at their investor reports, you look into the background of the people, and instantly they're like, "Oh, you kind of already know that I don't have to bring you up to here, you're already here." So, now we can get going, which is awesome.Diana:Basically all can be boiled down to the same dynamics of the dating relationship. Sometimes you go to the sporting event because your significant other likes it, and then sometimes they go to the thing that you want because you like it. And then if you have a mixture of alcohol and sports, you got me. So, there you go.Stephanie:I love that. I love that. Cool. Well, the one thing I want to kind of touch on too is around the world of marketing right now. So, I've talked with some brands that have had to kind of always work in a scrappy mindset. One of them was Anheuser-Busch where they're like, "Yeah. We can't ever have this one-to-one relationship. We always have to do other things to be able to reach our customers because we actually can't directly talk to them."Stephanie:And it makes me think brands like that might be pretty far ahead with all these changes to ads and privacy and retargeting and all that. What are you guys thinking is kind of like what are brands missing right now? What should they be doing to continue to have a close relationship with their customers and not lose out when they lose access to a big ad pull that maybe they're not going to have anymore?Diana:For me, I think it's a balance. I think you have to think about your consumer touch points across the board. Everyone's talking about the cookieless environment that's looming. We're all hoarding data. But I don't know how actionable everyone's making it. So, I think it's really around taking a step back and what's your learning agenda.Diana:You want to connect with consumers, but what's the value proposition for them? What's the benefit? And I think brands really have to think about and understand, if I'm connecting with consumers, what value am I providing them? And why should they give me their information? Why should they want to connect and engage with me? And if you haven't established that, then you haven't earned the right to have their information or their contact, because it really is all around creating a delightful experience for them.Diana:I think understanding all of the data inputs that you have and really thinking hard around, how do you leverage them to feed strategies, not with just within the silos of the space? But how do you integrate them so you're feeding your traditional media strategy with your D2 insights? You're feeding your supply chain strategy with some of the ratings and reviews that you found, even your R&D innovation.Diana:So, it's really around being mindful and thoughtful about all the touch points that you have and being able to action against them. But I think for most retailers and manufacturers, if you don't have a strategy to think about how you're going to leverage your data, and you haven't, you're going to miss the boat, because everybody's gearing up, and it's what's happening now if you want to stay ahead going forward.Mike:Yeah. And just to build on that. I think totally it depends on the consumer and what's relevant. But I mean generally, I think what I'm seeing from some brands a little bit of higher level thinking in terms of how they're engaging with consumers, even on social media. I noticed there was a time period where I would go on Instagram and I saw these ads. They're very tactical. There's just like these product ads like, "Okay, buy this widget, buy this thing."Mike:And you still see these display ads, but then I've seen a lot more ads are just more, they're helpful, their content. I'm a pet owner and I wasn't going through my feed and I saw those, it was an ad, but it was from a pet company, and it was really supposed to be like how do you, what are the attributes of a healthy pet? It was kind of an interesting, intrigued me. I have an aging pet, so I just think there's a lot more creativity, you can't… I think it's easy in e-commerce to get very operational, but you can't underestimate the power of creative and how important creative is.Mike:And I think there's a lot of brands that I've seen challenger brands that are leveraging humorous videos. They're really doing things viral on YouTube, they're building a personality around their brand. They're getting up on TikTok. They're leveraging every touch point they can at the top of the funnel to build, to be creative, to stand out. And now what that's doing for them is now they're training consumers to go to Amazon and type their branded, not type a general category keyword.Mike:So, I think what's happening is the mediums are changing, maybe it's not television maybe it's not that, but there's so many more tools for marketers and very agile to still tell stories. And so, I think storytelling is going to be, has always been important. And I think that brands that are going to invest in that and make sure that they're using all these other new platforms these video platforms are going to really be well positioned for the long term.Diana:Yeah. And I think what I heard from you too is this authenticity. And what consumers are really looking for because I feel like now especially within Instagram, people want to be sold to, to an extent, but they want to be sold to for me. I want you to understand who I am, what I want to see and deliver it to me the way that I want to." But I think people are also really looking for real content. So, a lot of the slick and shiny campaigns that work on TV, are not going to work in social. So, really understanding who your consumer is and how to speak to them in an authentic way. But also be able to convert them in three seconds or less.Diana:So, how do you make that from something content, how do you really think about making it real? Especially if you're talking to Gen Z, how do you talk to them so it feels like they're talking to their peer group in a very authentic way? Is really critical. And then, how do you make it every single touch point the opportunity for consumers to buy? Because the funnel as we know it, has really collapsed in a lot of places and consumers are coming in and out as they choose, and if you're not able to make your social shoppable. Then, you're really going to miss a lot of opportunities to drive conversion and acquire new audiences.Stephanie:Yeah. And I love the idea around storytelling. I mean that's kind of what our whole company's been built around is like this is what humans look for. And I think there's this really big opportunity in companies that have been around for a long time, like Colgate-Palmolive. I think since 1806, the story behind that maybe has not really been around of like, how was it founded?Stephanie:I mean we had on UPS the other day, and we were kind of going through the history of UPS. I'm like, "Whoa. They need to talk about this more." I mean founded by like a 19-year-old guy, and here's how like it even started with this bike delivery. They were on their bikes delivering things, and what it is today and all the pivots they've had to go through. And I think kind of getting back to those storytelling routes, especially for the more historical brands not only will kind of… I mean people want to hear those stories. I just don't think big brands tell it enough in a way that connects with people now.Mike:Colgate was the original startup.Stephanie:See?Mike:Right?Stephanie:This is what I want. This is the connection I need.Mike:1800 startup brand, right? That's a challenging brand.Diana:Well, you talk about purpose driven brands. I do think a lot of these more established CPTs don't really know how to tell that story. I think there was a time period and several years ago when like it was just something you didn't do, and if I look back on all the organizations I worked at that do a lot of good for the communities in which they serve, that wasn't the story that you told. It wasn't like the thing. But now people are expecting brands to have a purpose, and they are using their dollars to determine if that purpose is worthy or not.Diana:So, if you're not talking about it, then you're not going to get those dollars. And Gen Z is not having it at all. They expect you to stand up and not just talk the talk, they want to see you walk the walk and they also want to see what your executive leadership team looks like.Diana:And I think consumers are also expecting the role of big corporations has shifted. How are you making this world better? How are you involved in social justice? What is your role? I'm super proud of Colgate for launching a recyclable toothpaste tube that then they gave the technology to everybody in the industry, so now everyone can do it. Those are the type of we're here for the good of the planet, we're here for the good of society, and we're going to be good corporate citizens and contribute to that. That's what the consumers want, and those are the stories that larger CPGs have to start telling.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. So, when thinking about, earlier we're mentioning like you kind of have to be everywhere. And one thing that I also wanted to get into was all around agencies. We've had on amazing companies, one, was this company avocados from Mexico, and they talked about we've been like the number two or three commercial in the Super Bowl, and we have all these crazy things that we do that really drive, not only conversions, but awareness of our brand and they're selling avocados.Stephanie:They said our agencies are the ones that really, we vet them. They're amazing. They helped us get here, and I'd love to hear your take on, in a world where you have to be everywhere, how do you find agencies to work with that'll help get you there?Diana:For me, I've worked with so many great agencies along the way. And what I found is for me agencies are always an extension of my team. I'm expecting them to push us to make us better. I also really want to empower them to bring us awesome, creative, and make us feel really uncomfortable, because that's when you know you're onto something, especially when your boardroom feels really uncomfortable. That's when you know you're really onto something.Diana:But I think in this new digital commerce age, it's important to have an integrated agency model, because there are different agencies that are good and serve a purpose for different things. You do need those major creative campaigns, and yes, the Super Bowl is still important to some brands, but there's kind of the day-to-day operations, and also the ability to really think about digital commerce and the integration with shopper marketing and understanding how different retailer dynamics works, and how to leverage the data that's critical.Diana:So, agencies that not only know media, but know performance marketing but also understand retailers are really going to rise to the top right now, especially as more and more media dollars are shifting to retail media. Now those agencies that can work together, so from the big campaign to the Super Bowl ad and bring it all the way back to the Kroger, the Walmart, or the Target. Now that is just perfect.Mike:Yeah. I mean agencies from my point of view are, they are an extension and what they're often doing is they're acting on the data and insights that maybe a e-commerce team isn't equipped to act on yet. And so, I think the best agencies are the ones that make data their differentiation. So, for example, you could have a handful of agencies are all really good at spending your ad dollars. But there will be a select few agencies that know how to get that extra edge from some data, maybe it's incorporating some out of stock data or competitive search data, and you want to find those agencies are always pushing the boundary for you.Mike:They're not just managing on the basic models of ROAS, but they're actually looking at, what are these new things we could do? A test and learn, how do we advanced your ROI? Actually show that the ads are growing market share. How can they use data? And I think that's going to be a big differentiator, especially since digital shelf data, e-commerce data, it's still new for a lot. But I think you're going to see the separation where you find these agencies that are data-led, data centric, and I think there's a huge opportunity. To Diana's point, where first wave of digital agencies were very Amazon focused. There's such a huge gap in skill set right now in like the traditional shopper marketing for digital commerce that I think agency are perfect position to start becoming your extension of your Walmart, your Walmart digital operators, your Target.Mike:I think that's where you're going to see a lot of agencies flourish is where the maturity to actually pull those levers still isn't there. They can come in and be leaders. So, I look at agency on two dimensions who is really driving digital data driven decisions, who are ones that I can really scale with beyond just the Amazons but into that next tier flywheel that I want to go. Who's going to lead me there, lead my thinking, and help me be the market share leader on that next platform?Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. Are there any tests that you do when hiring agencies that you're like, "This will let me know if you're what I need, if you're well-rounded, if you can kind of plug in with other agencies and cover everything?"Mike:Well, we work with a lot of agencies. We don't hire them but we partner with them. So, one of the things that we do when we… We've tried to build an ecosystem at Profitero of like-minded agencies that are data-led. And one of the things that we're trying to do is make our data accessible to all these agencies to be able to do things. So, what I've seen is agencies that are really going to, that show the most promise is the ability to be willing to do some test and learn stuff, to pick up some data points from the digital shelf and say, "Hey, we're going to try this."Mike:We're going to say instead of just putting our ad dollars across every product spread it evenly on Amazon, we're going to actually shift and we're going to stop spending on the products that aren't converting well, and we're going to shift it to these products that are converting well. We're just going to shift it up and we're going to try to see what happens. So, for me, for my perspective the agencies that we've been vetting and really partnering with and saying that these are best of class are the ones that are showing that competency and that ability just to try some different things and experiment and find a model that they can repeat.Diana:Yeah. I would say when I think about it from a digital commerce perspective, especially from retail media. I'm really looking for an agency that not only understands media, but they also understand the impact on sales. So, if you think about Amazon and getting the flywheel going, if you're pushing ROAS, if you're pushing certain levers that impacts your profitability, it impacts a lot of your negotiation power with Amazon. So, you need to be able to keep your ROAS to where it needs to be in your other traditional media KPIs while keeping top line going, which can be expensive.Diana:So, that's very critical. So, having somebody that understands that. Also, someone that understands the nuances and the inner workings of Walmart from a media perspective but also that my sales team then needs to go to a buyer or a DMM and sell this program in, to not only get more, whether it's more displays or get them engaged and excited about it. But it's not just a pure media place. So, an agency that understands that from a digital commerce perspective is really critical.Diana:Then, when it comes to more of our traditional content and execution, I like to do what I call media to shelf. So, regardless of who the partner is and most agencies can do this. It's how you can integrate and work with other agencies. So, the idea can come from either side, either the traditional creative agency, the digital commerce agency, the shopper agency. But how do you take the lane that you play in and make the concept work across all? So, how do you take that idea and make it so much bigger? Because our funding models are not changing, our buckets are not getting any bigger. So, we have to make every dollar work harder.Diana:So, I need a traditional media plan that not only drives awareness, but also can pull through to the digital or physical shelf. And I would say a measure of good traditional agency, for me, it's make or break by the creative director. They really do enable the work to either deliver on the brief or exceed our expectations and deliver on our business objective.Stephanie:Yeah. Love that. All really good points. All right, with a couple minutes left, I want to shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I have a question, and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready? And I'll just kind of go back. Both have to answer the same question, so.Diana:Oh, boy.Stephanie:All right. Diana, you first. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Diana:I don't understand why sales and marketing are so separate. I wish I could understand why each side didn't understand the other, but hopefully one day, we will be able to create, take the healthy tension and build a stronger digital commerce organization as a result.Stephanie:I love that. You and a lot of other companies, so. All right, Mike.Mike:Bitcoin.Stephanie:All right. You haven't even looked into it yet? I feel like now's the time to get in.Mike:I've tried and I get so confused, but I just have this fear. I have this waving fear of missing out, but then I realized that people are losing a lot of money too. I just don't understand how it works.Diana:I want to do over.Stephanie:I liked yours. What? You want to do over, Diana?Diana:I want a do over. You know what I don't understand? Why can't we have side parts anymore? I don't understand that. I like the side part. It fits my face frame. Why is that not cool anymore?Stephanie:Man, I feel like we can have more. Let's just stay on this question, so many things. All right. Next one. Something wise my elders taught me. Mike, you first.Mike:Something wise my elders taught me. Man, sorry. I totally blanked on that one. So, can you ask that question again?Stephanie:Yeah. Something wise my elders taught me.Mike:Yeah. I'd say that really it was hard work. That just sounds kind of lame. But I learned pretty early that no one's going to give you anything in this world, and you have to work really hard, and my dad was one of the hardest working people I know. He was an auto body worker and put in a lot of hours and really kind of like taught me this blue collar approach that I try to bring to my work. I love working. I've always learned to work hard and I try to always ground myself in that work ethic whatever I do. So, that's something that my elders taught me.Stephanie:I love that. All right. Diana, you're up.Diana:So, for me, I'm a black woman in America and a first generation from Caribbean parents, so it's really about using my voice and my power to have the courage to make space for people who look like me or people who don't have their voices heard. So, I'm really grateful for having parents, but also ancestors that taught me and showed me how to do that. YStephanie:Yeah. I love that. All right. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Diana, you're up.Diana:Oh, shoes.Stephanie:A podcast on shoes?Diana:Yeah. My podcast would be on shoes and it would be Sarah Jessica Parker.Stephanie:My space right-Diana:It would really just be for me and a way to get new shoes.Stephanie:I'm so confused.Diana:Literally the whole angle of the podcast would be to get free shoes.Stephanie:Just need shoes. [crosstalk]. Okay. Who would your first guest be?Diana:Sarah Jessica Parker.Stephanie:Okay. I love it. All right. Mike, you can't top that one, but if you want to try, what would your podcast be about and who would your first guest be?Mike:Cannabis.Stephanie:Okay.Mike:And it would be probably, I don't know, Willie Nelson.Stephanie:What would you guys be talking about or would you [crosstalk]-Mike:I'm fascinated by the business of cannabis. So, it's something that I've studied for a while. I started to do a little bit of research on it back in Nielsen, and this was like way ahead. But I'm fascinated by how an industry can just go so mainstream. How can one part be so regulated, then all of a sudden go mainstream? And I'm fascinated by brand building in that space and how brands are building, and even like huge bevel companies are getting in this space now. So, we're like fascinated about the entrepreneurs in that space, the ecosystem of that space, and if I had a separate podcast that was totally unrelated to anything I did, it would be about that, because I think that's like, that and Bitcoin, those are two booming things right now.Stephanie:You could just blend them all together.Mike:Yeah. Right.Stephanie:I thought you would say you would be in it for the free weed. Yeah. Give me free weed.Mike:Samples, yeah.Stephanie:Diana's shoes.Diana:Yeah.Stephanie:Lobby sitting pretty.Mike:Right.Stephanie:So, I'll send you Bitcoin for the first time, and then you'll have to go deep into the wormhole.Mike:Yeah. I'm really opening my heart on this podcast.Stephanie:That is why you're here. That's why you're here. All right. And then, the last one. I want to know how you guys stay on top of your industry. So, maybe, Mike, you first. What are you reading? Newsletters? Is it books, podcasts? What do you do?Mike:LinkedIn. I basically follow a set of people. On LinkedIn there's a group of about 15 to 20 people that I just trust that curate. They curate on a regular basis all the breaking news that I could just go to LinkedIn and I know that at any given moment, I'm going to find something that's really interesting on a different perspective. Yeah. That's my go-to. I wake up in the morning and look at LinkedIn. And then I think about, "Okay, what could I do to add value to LinkedIn that day?"Mike:And LinkedIn has become one of these like platforms that I managed my life around. I never thought it would be like that. But it's become like a valuable news source for me.Stephanie:That's awesome. All right. Diana, how about you? How do you stay on top of everything?Diana:For me, I'm fueled by curiosity. So, similar to Mike, I'm on LinkedIn. He's in my top 20 list of people that I follow that I get content from. I listen to a ton of podcasts, this one also. I am an avid reader of papers and research. So, whether it's from Kantar, Profitero, [inaudible], Edge, you name it, you've got to stay on top of it.Diana:And then it's really about networking. So, I have this mantra like I'll say yes. So, if somebody invites me to a round table, I'm going to go. If it's a bad experience I don't go back. But like I found this small community of e-commerce and digital commerce folks that I can just call or text or get information from. And a really cool thing that a bunch of women in e-com started is basically women of e-commerce, and it's a group of 25 of us, and we connect on a regular basis. But we also bought, each brought in a mentee. So, it's just ripe for learning, and Sarah Hofstetter, the president of Profitero is one of the members as well. But it's just such a great place to feed my curiosity.Stephanie:I love that. I see only more of that happening, these micro groups popping up. I know that that was something that I started experiencing here which is like women all being part of like a group text, which I was like, "Is this going to be too much?" And now, I'm like, "This is the best text thread I've ever been in." And it probably wouldn't have happened prior to this past year or two. That's amazing.Stephanie:Well, Mike, Diana, this has been such a fun round table. We'll definitely have to have you back for round two, because I'm sure a lot will change quick in a matter of months. But where can people find out more about you? Mike, maybe let's start with you.Mike:LinkedIn.Stephanie:Of course. And then, you just go to Diana [crosstalk]Mike:Yes. If you want to find me, you want to talk to me, that's the place to go. I'll be pretty responsive.Stephanie:Yes. All right. Diana.Diana:You can find me on LinkedIn as well.Stephanie:Cool. All right. Well, thank you guys so much for joining. It's been a pleasure having you.Diana:Thank you so much for having me.Mike:Thank you.

The relationship between a brand and an influencer is a two-way street. And even though that sounds obvious, even the most successful brands and influencers are struggling to see ROI from their content.Tessa Barton, AKA Tezza, has experiences on both sides of that spectrum. She is an influencer-turned-entrepreneur, whose company — also called Tezza — has seen its ups and downs in the five years she's been working on it. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Tezza explains how she went from cold reach outs to Urban Outfitters to leveraging a following of more than a million people to building a company all on her own. She discusses how both brands and influencers should be thinking about putting their best foot — and content — forward and what kind of creative and distribution process has had the most success. Plus, she talks about the lessons she learned when she launched her very first product expecting immediate success and then being able to count her orders on one hand. She turned things around, though, and you'll learn how she did that and more on this episode!Main Takeaways:Show Em What They're Working With: In a world where everyone wants to be an influencer, brands need to know that whoever they invest in will be worth it. With brands being more scrupulous, the smart content creators and influencers are being more proactive and showing exactly what kind of content a company will get when it partners with them.Only One DM Away: Thanks to the myriad of platforms and channels companies operate in, there has never been a better time to get in touch with them on a one-to-one level. This connectedness is a mutually beneficial scenario because customers, potential partners and brands are all only one message away from forming a lasting relationship.Talk Their Ears Off: Even the biggest influencers in the world can't just come out with a product and expect to sell out in the blink of an eye. Selling is a constant action, and whether you are a brand or an influencer, you need to constantly be putting your products in front of people, talking to potential buyers, gathering feedback and data, and pivoting as necessary. Then you have to do that all again.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, I'm your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Tezza Barton, the CEO of Tezza and the Tezza app. Tezza, welcome.Tezza:Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. I think this interview, I'm just going to be saying your name a bunch of times, should be very interesting. You'll be like, "Stop it."Tezza:It's very confusing, I'm sorry.Stephanie:I like it and I actually think its branding is on point. I want to hear a bit about your background, because I was looking through your social presence and the things that you're doing. You obviously have a very big following, I think on Instagram definitely over a million, right?Tezza:Luckily, yes.Stephanie:You've got a lot of fans, a lot of fans of Tezza. So I wanted to hear about how you got here and what was that journey like.Tezza:Totally. Where to begin? I grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah, so I loved just living in the outdoors, being really close to nature. My entire family is full of just artists and creative people, so that was just always something that I was lucky enough to be in front of and around and welcomed by. I think as I got older, I didn't really realize how special that was and how impactful that would be on my life, and how a lot of other people just were turned away from that. This was a really beautiful experience, both my parents were entrepreneurs and started their own businesses, so that was just like what life was to me.Tezza:So I was super lucky, and I remember when I was 16 I had this just, I was like, "I'm going to be a fashion designer." I really was so obsessed with fashion design and creating and selling all my own looks and things like that. Then I picked up a camera to shoot the looks I was creating and I was like, light bulbs went off, "This is amazing, I can actually capture so much more than just the clothes, but the storytelling and all that stuff." Which really got me excited, and from there it was like an explosion in evolution of just figuring out who I was as an artist and creator. I did go to school for fine art and photography, where I really dug in and learned more about just ... I guess honing in on my skills.Tezza:That was right about when the whole Facebook, Instagram boom came about. So for me, I was blogging since I was 16, I was always on I guess social media in some way trying to create, just to get my work out there. I honestly was using it as a portfolio, a way to get clients, a way to just be seen. I think I was super lucky, I remember feeling like, "Gosh, I don't even have to have a website, as a 16 year old, I can just post it on Facebook and people see it and people want to interact." So that just became the way I worked, and in college, Instagram came out and really my dream was to work with all these amazing brands. So I was like, "How can I help them create content?" No one knew how to create that much content.Tezza:So I would just message local brands and I was like, "How can I be your just main photographer? I'm going to help you create 60 different pictures that all look different that you can have this awesome Instagram feed." So that became my side career while being in college and playing in a band and all of this stuff. So I used that as just a way to build also a following in the community, and people often would talk about my page as like a TV channel. They're like, "This is like a series. I can't wait to get the next series that comes out." So I used it as a professional and just a personal platform, and not necessarily using it as monetizing to work with brands, but more as just a photographer.Tezza:Then I remember I was like, "I'm just going to move to New York." My husband and I were like, "Let's just go, we have no reason to go, but we need to go. I don't even think at that time the word influencer, it wasn't a thing, but that's really where I just saw like, "Oh, wow. I can actually work with these brands. I can get them to hire me as an individual." I really just loved the storytelling, that's what I wanted to focus on, so I leaned in and decided I was going to use this and try and monetize my Instagram, if you will.Tezza:That was the beginning of where we are now. So it's just been an evolution since then, but I can get into I guess, why and how we started the businesses from there. But that's the gist of the story.Stephanie:I love it. So in those early days, how did you convince brands to work with you? I imagine you being in New York and just going to a brand and being like, "I have a great Instagram, I've got some good followers, pay me." What did that process look like and how did you catch the big fish in the early days?Tezza:Totally. I remember, and I still do this to this day, I'm not going to lie, but I remember the first big client I really wanted to get was Urban Outfitters, this was back in the day. I was like, "I just know I can create the kind of content that will not only sell their products, but my audience would just love and be attracted to." So I would basically buy their products and I would create, I would go so hard and create amazing content that I knew they would want to see, and I would email it to them, I would tag them, I would DM them. Finally, after months of doing it, they were like, "Oh, my gosh, yes." Then all of a sudden they were hiring me every single month to create for them.Tezza:So that always has been a part of my strategy, even with high end brands like Michael Kors or whatever. I think just as an individual or creator showing what you can offer a brand, what you can provide and why you'd be a valuable asset to them, whether it's amazing imagery or you can drive sales or you're just the biggest fan in the world of the brand. Those are all tactics that I think brands actually use and look for when hiring creators and influencers.Stephanie:Yeah. I like that, show value up front. So with this much content that you're creating, especially thinking about sending samples of what you can do, what does your creative process look like when coming up with these campaign ideas? You were talking about banging out six feet of photos, that all look different but have a similar theme and really sell the product. What does that story-boarding and creative process look like to be able to come up with something that connects with people and also keeps the brand's image at the forefront?Tezza:Totally. I think, look, I'm somebody that likes to consume products and most of the time it's because an image captures me and I'm like, "I want to look like that. I want to feel like that." So when I'm about to create any kind of content, I take a step back and I'm like, "What story am I telling? Who's this girl? Where is she going? How is she feeling?" Whether it's a personal project or I'm creative directing a campaign for another brand, because I think those can be a little bit different.Tezza:But I think if you can take something, just even a little bit of the extra mile and do a little more storytelling than just standing on a blank wall, which also that can drive sales too ...Stephanie:That can be so vogue. I have no idea, do not ask me.Tezza:That was a great line. It really can. I think there are so many ways, but I think the one thing I notice and the reason I ever started to really even become, have any sort of traction or growth, is because I definitely lean into just the storytelling aspect and making a piece of content that lasted a little bit longer than just that five seconds of scrolling on a feed, but somebody might want to repost it, somebody might want to recreate a picture like that because it made them feel something. It lives on Pinterest, that's how I focus and think about my content.Stephanie:Were you also focused on distribution? You can make these great pieces of content, but how did you get it in front of the people that they wanted to? Was it just focused on your following, or were you trying to find new ways? Like Pinterest, maybe you weren't there before, you're like, "I'm going to go here, I'm going to try YouTube." What did that look like to really get that content out into the world in a way that could potentially go viral or scale?Tezza:Totally. I think if you can be on as many platforms as possible, you should. It's definitely difficult, I even struggle with it myself, but I use my blog and Pinterest were a huge, huge way of existing and growing my audience outside of just Instagram. Because so many people would be like, "Wow, I discovered you on Pinterest. I didn't know that was your photo, I've been seeing your blog over here." So I think having the conversation, TikTok is an amazing way now, YouTube is an amazing way now. On top of that, I think another amazing thing you can do is collaborate with other creators and influencers. That is huge for just combining audiences and being able to share each other's audiences and messages and build your own brand.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. I love that. So when thinking about these big brands partnering with you, I always ask the brands, "How do you think about ROI with influencers? Do you think it's worth it? How do you find an influencer is good for your brand?" What's nice about this conversation is it's on the other side of the table. So I want to ask you, how do you think about working with a brand, what's a good partnership look like and how would you advise them on thinking about is this going to be a good fit, will you get the ROI that you want?Tezza:Right. I think ROI, that's always the hot topic, the hot conversation, but there are so many different ways to think about using an influencer. It's like when Doritos does a commercial on the Superbowl, obviously there are so many things that does. Vibe, culture, conversation, visual, you don't know how many people are going to go buy Doritos after you watched that commercial. But I think the benefits of using an influencer is that you're hitting personal, usually an influencer's community is pretty personal, they've stuck around for hopefully many years, they trust that person.Tezza:So I think you're hitting those trust points, and I think personally the most success and the best success in conversations I've had with brands as an influencer is when, even if I'm the biggest fan of a brand and they just send me an email and they're like, "We just want you to post, here's how much it's going to be, here's the brief, done." I'm like, "Okay, cool." But if a brand sits down with me or has a phone call and they're like, "This is why I love my brand and this is why I think you're going to be a good fit, and this is why I'm passionate about this project and this new thing that we're launching." I'm so hyped, I feel so much more connected to that brand, I'm going to spend 10 more hours on that piece of content than I am if it's just too quick and there's no heart in it.Tezza:So I think just as a brand, if you can find influencers that not only love your product and want to talk about it, but actually connecting with that person, that partnership is going to ... It will just go longer and they'll talk about you even more after than when you just pay them, because they're excited about it too.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. That's such a good idea. How do you pull in whoever you're working with so that they have heart in it? It's not always just about the contract and the hours, all that. People will probably go the extra mile if they've personally committed to it. I know when I was talking to someone from Anheuser-Busch on this show and they were talking about a partnership with Travis Scott and they were like, "He's not just an influencer, he's shaping the product. He's shaping the creative and he has a very vested interest in this entire campaign. It's not just him posting once on Instagram and then walking away." It's a whole thing, and that to me is what you want. I don't know if enough brands think of it that way and think of the longer term benefit and have actually pulled in the people that you're trying to help spread the word in a way that's meaningful to them.Tezza:Totally. I think another example of that, and this is a brand that I've worked with for many, many years and we built just honestly the trust, kind of to what you're saying, I think it's actually using an influencer as a creative and a creative director. I worked with TRESemme for so long and my content always performed really well, they loved the direction I took things, the amount of time I spent on things, and so after a few years, they started to hire me as a creative director and photographer for the brand and I got to shoot other influencers for their campaign. That became a bigger part of the story, they helped tell that story.Tezza:So I think, think outside the box. Use these creative people to your advantage, because we're sitting here. That's more exciting than just a quick post, and I think everyone's just craving just personal touchpoints right now, so anything you can do like that is going to be just a level up from just a post.Stephanie:Yeah. What did that look like behind the scenes with TRESemme when you were acting as a creative director and you were behind the camera, instead of making your own posts for them? What did that look like?Tezza:So much fun, not going to lie. It was a blast.Stephanie:Sounds fun.Tezza:Yeah. I think we had six different girls and I got to help choose the influencers and really come up with different imagery that would bring to life not only the TRESemme content, but the influencers' content. So I think because it was coming from also the influencer side and not just the brand side, there was so much more value in thinking about it that way and really trying to bring to life two different brands. Influencers basically have their own brands, so I think finding that storytelling is really where beautiful things start to happen.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Which brands to wish to work with in the future? Are you hoping to one day partner with?Tezza:Oh, gosh. Way too many, so many brands.Stephanie:We've got to put it out there so the universe answers your question.Tezza:Yes. No, totally. I think personally, I would love to work with ... I did a small campaign a couple years ago with Canon and I'm a Canon fanatic. I love cameras obviously and I used their products for years. So when I got that campaign and I got to use a new camera coming out and I got to create content that was going to be in a photo gallery and all this stuff, it was such like, "Wow, this is my dream collaboration." So I think working with not only just camera brands that I love, I would love to work with Fuji or anything like that, but also working with just artists.Tezza:I would love to work with, I don't know, like a musician. I think it would be so fun to be like, "Okay, I'm going to come up with your next music video and Instagram strategy and let's get into it and get creative." I just love that kind of stuff, so anything like that would be a dream. But real, real talk, my dream would be like Gucci, okay?Stephanie:All right, it's out there.Tezza:It's out there.Stephanie:... Will be next, now you've put it out into the universe.Tezza:Yes.Stephanie:Let's jump over to Tezza now, I want to hear about your company, I think it's super interesting hearing how you built up this following, you have a lot of people who like your work, they love your creative direction. Then you go and you create an ecommerce shop and then you create an app and I want to hear what was that process like going from building a community and focusing on that to them being like, "And now I'm going to build a full-on ecommerce business and app."Tezza:Totally, yes. So many mistakes, I'm like, "How do I even get into the beginning of it?" I think for me, I wasn't setting out to be an influencer or just even an entrepreneur, but I always just loved ... I had this motto, which was the art of life, that was like, "This is my goal in life." Because I grew up in this family of creatives and people that always were supporting my art and helping me fuel my art, I felt like, "Gosh, not everyone has this opportunity and I want to do that for other people."Tezza:So I want to inspire everyone to find their inner artist, because I feel like everyone is creative, everyone has the ability to create art, but they don't always know that. So that was like my mission, and so then everything that came after that was to support that idea. I was fortunate that every product we've started has been from actual interesting questions that we were getting, it wasn't like I was like, "I have this random idea and I want to make a thing, so let's just figure it out." For example, our first product we ever launched was our collage kitsTezza:That idea, when we started, it was not there, it didn't exist. But so many people, we had so many images on our walls and they were like, "How did you do this? Where do you get these cool pictures?" I was like, "Wow. I take all these pictures, I could create this kit." So that was my first physical product ever and wow, we had no idea what we were doing. We just called a printing shop in Wisconsin, we were just trying to figure it out, we did it all out of our studio apartment in New York. The interest was there, when we announced what we were launching, people were like, "Oh, my gosh. This is genius."Tezza:I was like, "Yes, we're going to make a lot of money. This is going to be amazing." Then we put it up on the site and we got like two sales. We were like, "Okay, so this is a horrible idea." It really was a lesson that just taught me so much that I implemented ... It was just like, "Wow, you do have to talk about something so many times." It doesn't matter, even if you're an influencer, even if the interest is there, you just have to talk about it. You have to get it into the right hands. You have to constantly be presenting the idea. Especially now, I think we're inundated with so ... We're seeing so many products all the time, so how are you making it personal? How are you telling the story? What is the product? Why does somebody want it? Why is it going to benefit their life?Tezza:So that really, after doing it for two years in our apartment and making all those mistakes, we finally found crazy success with that, after grinding away at two years.Stephanie:What did you do? How did you go from having two sales and you're like, "Wah-wah," to then finding success with it? Because I can tell now just by looking at them like, "There's no way you're not selling a bunch of these." Collages are so on trend right now, everyone is trying to collage walls with the pictures and then trying to organize it. I tried to do it, it literally took me a week and I was this close to giving up. So what did you do to hit success with that?Tezza:I think like I was saying, just talking about it way more than we thought we had to. I didn't know how it worked, I never have run ... I didn't know you should be doing email campaigns or I should be ... That every person that is interested in DM-ing, I need to be DM-ing back. Really supporting the community of it and helping people, just making it an easier part of conversation, and then also just getting it into the right hands and having those people love it so much that they want to talk about it, that's always been influencer marketing.Tezza:An influencer, I say that, I think everybody's an influencer. You could have 10 followers, and heck, you might be influencing those 10 people major. So all of a sudden [inaudible], but I think how can you have those organic conversations and find people that are actually interested? The second we did, it circulated and circulated, and circulated, and we never really had to ... We don't overthink it now, but I think that was a really interesting learning process. On the flip side of that, we launched the app, it's been I guess a little over two and a half years now, so two and a half years ago, and that was a similar product where we launched that out of just interest.Tezza:I was a photographer, I really had a super specific aesthetic and so many people were like, "How can I do this? How can I be a better photographer?" So I was like, "I want to be able to help everybody do this. How can I?" I could sell my lightroom presets, which I was doing, and I had great success with that, but it was so limited to people that I could reach and I was super lucky that my husband was a developer. So we were like, "Let's just sit down and see if we can build an app." We were two kids in a studio apartment, who knows what we were doing? But after a year and a half at midnight grinding away trying to figure out how to build a photo and video editing app, we finally got it up to work and it was so raw at the beginning.Tezza:I remember when we launched, it had so many problems. It's such a different product than an actual physical good, but equally you have bugs and you have just a million types of phones that it has to work on and all of these things. So it was a very humbling process, but I think we've benefited, because we knew who our consumers were and what they wanted and I had built such an honest and real relationship with that initial community that wanted the app, and so they were willing to work with me and we worked through the bugs, and that's still how the app works today and we were really able to grow it because of those initial core people that just wanted it and thought it was amazing and were willing to get through the mistakes with us.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. That's nice and it's good to have a community that is willing to chip in like that.Tezza:Yeah.Stephanie:You get the Tezza app, which is a photography editing app, and you've got Tezza which is an ecommerce shop, how do you think about uniting both of those and sending traffic both ways potentially, or not at all? Do you keep them as complete separate companies and use cases? How do you view the branding on everything you're doing?Tezza:Totally. Just to be honest with you, it's been I feel like a quick five years where I'm like, "Wow, we just did so much." We didn't have time to think, we were just building and doing stuff that we wanted to make. All of a sudden, last year was a very important year for us and in a way grateful for everything slowing down, because we were able to take a step back and be like, "Okay, what are the brands that we're building and how do they work?" So now, we are really passionate and excited about combining those two brands together and really focusing on having art in the physical and digital space, and really just helping and inspiring creators, whether it's making your home a more inviting amazing space, or you're able to create really amazing artwork and be an amazing creator by using the app.Tezza:Then on top of that, we're doing so many different collaborations this year, once again in the physical and digital space, by working with other artists and bringing to life their work through art prints and things like that, and then also within the app. So it's a really exciting year, I feel like we're finally understanding the brand that we're building and I now finally see where we're headed. So that's an honest answer, I think we're still growing and figuring it out and we're such a small team, it's me and my husband and our assistant. So we're growing, we're trying to get bigger and better, but it's been a good year for sure.Stephanie:Well, that's impressive how much you all are doing with just the three of you. Yeah. That's a lot of work. What are you thinking about the NFT trend right now, especially hearing about how you're doing digital art? I'm just imagining, are you going to put it into an NFT, put it on the blockchain, do something like that? Sell it that way? Is that something that you guys have even talked about? Because it seems like you have a good opportunity, especially since you're one of the creators who is making some of this amazing art. People are willing to buy your collages with just your photos. Have you thought about creating scarcity around that potentially and having it in a digital format that people can own?Tezza:Totally. I think it's a hot topic right now and something that we're dipping our toes in and actually trying to figure out an interesting way to go about it. I'm not exactly sure if that will evolve to be the way, I think we're going to see a lot of different things pop up like that. So I don't know. Honestly, I feel like a newb, is that, I don't even know, a word to use on that space?Stephanie:Yeah.Tezza:But I think I am excited to see stuff like that, I think there's a lot of value. I like the idea that an artist can get, as a piece of art goes on and on and gets passed on, an artist actually would still get the commission from something like that. I think that's a beautiful thing and I think it's similar to music. I think music is going to change and evolve a lot over the next little bit, and so I'm excited to see where it's all going. I think all these worlds are about to come crashing together.Stephanie:Yeah. I was just going to bring up music, because I know you were in that world for a bit, to me it just seems like a no-brainer. Why wouldn't you put your music somewhere that can get properly valued and bought and respected in a way that it hasn't been previous? I just so many use cases where I do feel like there was obviously a very big fad, it got a little crazy, you can't just be like, "NFT solves the world's problems, it just needs to do everything and I'm going to put my pen on it, I'm going to digitize this." It's definitely gotten a little out of hand, but I can see a place where there are really good use cases around ownership and giving artists what they deserve, which is really cool.Tezza:Totally. I think just more artists are becoming independent, even with TikTok, the things that has done for small musicians that could never get the viral reach or anything without a label or all these people behind them, I think there's so many cool ways that are coming up and Instagram alone I think has been just an amazing place for independence and artists to be able to sell their art or find a community. I think about the people I've connected with. My favorite thing to say is just, because it blows my mind, because it still happens to me all the time, is like you're one DM away from a CEO of something amazing that you're super interested in.Tezza:So if there's a brand, a person, a musician, whatever it is that you are like, "I just have a question." Probably just send it, because you might get a response and it might be from the actual person that you want to get in touch with. So I feel like there's so many quick touchpoints that are coming more and more accessible. I think we're in an exciting time. I know it's also like there's a lot of negative things people could say about it, but I think that's the positive side of it.Stephanie:Yeah. I like to focus on the positive side as well. I love that, you're one DM away from whatever you want. How do you think about collaborations? I know earlier you were talking about collaborations with brands, it seems like that could also get tricky and a little sticky, depending on who you're working with. So how do you view having a collaboration and a brand that's going to work well and not get to a place where you're both rubbing heads and trying to figure out who is doing what, what's a good collaboration?Tezza:Right. I think we touched on this earlier a little bit, but actually having just a real conversation about the goals of not only just the brand, but as an influencer, what works and what performs well for you. So having that laid out almost before you get into what the collaboration's going to be about is important. Then when a brand sends me a brief it's like, "You have to say these exact 45 things." So this is an infomercial and even if I love the product, my community is going to swipe away. So I think really as a brand, if you can try, I know it's hard because trust me I run a brand too and sometimes you're like, "But we need to hit these talking points," which I understand, but just taking that extra step and making sure it is coming from a personal place and voice is the special sauce.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. What kind of platforms are you most excited about right now? What are you dipping your toes in that maybe other people aren't even thinking a bout exploring? Or where are you seeing a bigger following than you even would have expected happening quicker than maybe other platforms? What are you bullish on right now?Tezza:I know everyone's saying TikTok, but it really is like the early days of Instagram where there still is that discoverability. I don't think it's going to last too much longer, so that's why if anyone isn't dipping their toes in that, I would say just jump in for a year and try everything. Don't try what you're seeing, just try something new and different. I think people are craving just something that's super different, so that's one area.Tezza:I think also, this is a vaguer area, but this is where I find a lot of success in the platform is more like combining, collaborating with other artists. So I think everybody has such a strong community these days, whether it's a brand, an influencer, an artist, whatever it is, so how can you marry those two, that relationship to really actually combine your followers or your community and the ideas that you share as brands? I think that's almost what I'm excited about in just commerce in general, because we're doing this on a personal level and with brands and things like that, but I think massive, massive brands are doing that. Street style brands are doing it with random cool artists that live in LA that want to be discovered, and I think that brings so much more heart, like I said, into everything that you're doing. So I think that's almost like a new, not platform, but way of collaborating and trying to grow, if that makes sense.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah, that completely does. I love that. All right, well let's jump over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Tezza:Oh, boy. I'm nervous, okay.Stephanie:You'll do great. All right, first one. What's up next on your reading list?Tezza:The Adventures of Calvin and Clay, is that what it's called? Wait, Kavalier and Clay. The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay. I don't know, but my husband's read it like four times and he's like, "It's just beautiful, it takes you into this world." It's on my list just because I hear him talk about it so much.Stephanie:Wow. It's like 1900 almost five-star ratings on Amazon. It looks like a comic book, but I would be down with that.Tezza:It's an escape, not necessarily, I'm not going to learn, it's not a business book.Stephanie:All right. Hey, if it's good enough for someone to read a couple times, I'm down. That's cool. So when you want to get into your creative head space, what do you do to do that?Tezza:I love to watch old movies or look at vintage magazines. I get inspired by old things. I think we can feel ... I get overwhelmed almost by how much new stuff is going on, but sometimes I like to look back and be inspired by things that were done before and see where new inspirations have come from. So I just love old movies and books and magazines and things like that.Stephanie:Yeah, me too. I think it's always a good fun way to get brought back to where things were and then incorporate that into certain things that maybe people forgot about, which is always a fun feeling. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would be your first guest?Tezza:Great question. I think it would be about art and I've always wanted to have a podcast called either the art of life or starving artists or something like that to break down the walls of just what being an artist actually is and showcasing just ... My husband, for example, he's a developer, I always made fun of him for not being the creative one, but he's so creative and developing is creative. I was being a critic, I was judging him and now I take it back. So I feel like there's so many things like that, that I would love to talk about and so many cool people I'd love to interview.Tezza:But my first guest? This is going to be so lame and cheesy, but I would love for it to be my mom, because she's the most fascinating woman. I haven't even sat down and asked her all the questions I want to ask her about. She has five kids, she started an amazing interior design business from the second I was born, and never seems to be stressed out or not have enough time for everybody. I don't understand. She's just on another level. So I would love to interview her first.Stephanie:That's a good one. I would listen to that one as well, so let me know when that's up.Tezza:We'll see, stay tuned.Stephanie:Stay tuned, everyone. Who is your either favorite artist you're watching or fellow influencer?Tezza:I'm going to say this for people that are out there looking to become influencers, because I think she is doing a really great job at growing platforms, which is really hard to do right now, so I look up to her for this. But Brittany Xavier, she is an amazing influencer and I've just watched her change her brand over the years, and really go after the brands she wants to work with and also grown literally everything from TikTok to YouTube to millions of followers in short periods of time. She just does such a focused approach, and I think for somebody that's trying to become an influencer or wanting to really grow and find the community, she's just an interesting person to observe.Stephanie:That's a good one. All right, what is one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Tezza:How to scale a business. I feel like, I wish I went to business school sometimes. But sometimes there's benefit and I know.Stephanie:You're in it right now.Tezza:I know. I'm in the business school, but sometimes I'm just like, "Wow. I don't even know what to do, where to go." But it's fun, I don't know, figuring it out.Stephanie:You will learn so much more by just doing. Well, if I have to circle back in like a year and you'll be like, "Look at all the progress, look what's happened."Tezza:Exactly, exactly. Can't wait for that day.Stephanie:All right, then the last question, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Tezza:I think we're in a time where everybody has to take a step back and look at what they're doing, what they're giving as a brand, whether that's anything from sustainability to actually being of importance. So I think, though we're having these massive brands like Amazon and Walmart who run so much of ecommerce, I think there are going to be so many small brands that are coming up that have so much more meaning and thought behind them. I think we're just barely tapping into this new generation of young YouTubers that have insane amount of impact and following and community that I don't even understand. So I think they're going to be leaders in ecommerce and products and I'm just excited and curious to see where that goes.Stephanie:Yeah. Awesome. All right, Tezza, it's been really fun having you on the show. Where can people find out more about you and all the cool things that you're working on?Tezza:Thanks so much for having me. Yes, you can go to ShopTezza.com or LelloTheLabel.com, that's my sunglasses brand. Then also in the App Store, if you type in Tezza you will find our photo and video editing app, and on Instagram, Tezza, T-E-Z-Z-A.Stephanie:Good handle. All right, well thanks so much.Tezza:Thanks for having me.

Traditional retailers are facing different levels of competition from all these new ecommerce brands that have popped up recently, and are now being held to new customer expectations that many predicted wouldn't occur for years. Because of the acceleration of digital platforms and online shopping over the last 18 months, brick and mortar stores are in a scramble to catch up or risk being  kicked to the curb. Helping retailers take charge of their digital transformation journey and get in on all of the online action is Sensormatic, which serves retailers with IoT technology to help them with things such as inventory intelligence and accuracy, gathering shopper insights, converting foot traffic, and more. Subramanian Kunchithapatham (KS) is the Vice President of Engineering at Sensormatic and he's been up close and personal with the brands as they implement the new technology that will allow them to compete in a digital world. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, KS tells us what he's been seeing in the world of retail and how he anticipates the industry changing in the coming months and years. For example, he gives us the scoop on how Sensormatic partnered with Intel to turn already-installed store cameras into an A.I.-powered Smart Hub — basically an intelligent store that can provide insights into occupancy, foot traffic, track inventory, and even provide a personalized experience for customers if they have opted in. Hear all about that solution and others on this episode!Main Takeaways:So Trendy: Retailers have a number of new trends to keep up with if they want to compete with ecommerce. Thanks to the rise of online shopping, consumers are experimenting with and discovering new brands more than ever before, which means the customer loyalty traditional retailers have enjoyed is crumbling. Additionally, when consumers do show in-store, they want to do more than just shop, they want an experience. Retailers have to adapt to meet these new expectations by offering new omnichannel and cross-platform shopping experiences to meet customers where they are.Train, Train, Train: To digitally transform any organization means that there has to be an investment of not just money, but time. Employees need to be trained on new technology and strategies for using the data you gather, and the A.I. or machine learning systems you put in place also need time to be trained on the types of data and information they should be gathering and presenting to create the most value.A Future Full of Livestreams: Recently, retailers have been experimenting with the concept of livestream shopping — a brand will livestream an event and promote items, and those watching the livestream can buy the items right from that screen. This type of interactive and streaming shopping experience is going to become more popular as technology continues to advance and as the younger generation pushes that expectation forward.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey there and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, your number one show for all things commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org.Stephanie:Today on the show, I have the pleasure of chatting with KS, who's the VP of Engineering for Sensormatic Solutions, part of Johnson Controls. KS, welcome.KS:Nice to meet you, Stephanie. How are you?Stephanie:Good. How are you?KS:Good.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on the show. I was looking through our doc and I'm like, "There's so much stuff that I want to talk to," because I haven't had too many people on the show, with a focus on retail, so let's dive right in. I want to hear, what is Sensormatic Solutions and what does your role look like, there?KS:Yeah. Sensormatic Solutions is a technology company serving retailers globally. We provide IoT technology for retailers. Right from the edge to the cloud, we have several solutions focused on retailers, on the loss prevention side. How to prevent theft in the store, and the inventory intelligence focused on inventory accuracy. Then shopper insights which is focused on what is the foot traffic and how are we converting the foot traffic?KS:The top of all those things, we recently launched a new retail platform called Sensormatic IQ. It's a connected intelligent operating platform that unifies several systems that we put out for retailers. In addition to that, it helps you to connect third-party systems as well as retailer systems.KS:That's the digital journey that Sensormatic has done, and that's what Sensormatic does for global retailers. My role is for product development. A lot of technology transformation within the company has been driven by me.Stephanie:Over these past couple of years, what does the transformation look like? Especially when it comes to retailers, now probably welcoming technology into their locations, where maybe a couple of years ago they're like, "Oh, do I even need this? You really have to convince me," where I feel like, now they have to transform really quickly. Stay up with all these new E-commerce brands. Figure out how to get access to the same kind of data that these B2C companies can get instantly. What does that transformation look like?KS:Yeah, if you really look at the retail industry per se, it's the most digitally disrupted industry, right? There are lot of digital transformation that was happening in retail, much before the pandemic actually. Almost every retailer was looking at digital transformation.KS:The primary reason is, more and more online sales happen. When you look at brick and mortar stores, how do you stay relevant in the brick and mortar space? Because of that there was digital transformation that was ongoing with most of the retailers.KS:The pandemic, what it has done is it has accelerated the digital transformation. Now if you really look at, because of the pandemic, you see more need for unified commerce and more need for self-checkout. They like to see that the store is more healthy and safe. Those kind of needs are driving now. Sensormatic as a company, we have operated for over 50 years and we have a very rich heritage of delivering innovative solutions to solve a retailer's best business problems.KS:Even now, as we are going through the pandemic, we are working on new, innovative solutions, right from sensors to systems to software and AI-based offerings. Looking at, how do we help the retailers handle that disruption that has cast in the industry, and come up with new offerings so that they can proceed with their digital transformation journey?KS:If you really look at shoppers today, what the pandemic has done is, most of the people who have never shopped online, they're forced to shop online. Now, once you start shopping online, you get used to shopping online.KS:Now when you start shopping online, now that is one thing, where the online shopping has increased. Second thing is, when you start shopping online, what you realize is, you may be loyal to your particular brand. Now suddenly you have many more choices. Because you're not going into the particular store and you're shopping online, you have many more choices.KS:Now people want to experiment. Because they want to experiment and it is easy for them to experiment, there is a shift in loyalty that's happening, actually. That's causing troubles for some of the retailers, when people want to shift from their brand to another brand.KS:The other trend that you see among the shoppers is, no longer, shoppers want to really come to store and then only shop. They expect retailers to meet, wherever they want to shop, however they want to shop. Whatever time they want to shop, you need to meet them at their convenience, and not a shopper coming into the store and making.KS:Some of these trends, what happens is, for you to address some of these trends, then every retailer needs to adopt technology at a faster pace. If you have to shop anywhere you want and then, any time you want and then, any place you want. Then you want that item to be delivered to you, or you wanted to come and pick it up from the store, we call it as buy online and pick in store.KS:If you have to enable that, the retailers need to embrace the technology. If they don't have the technology embraced then they cannot deliver that kind of a customer experience. When you don't deliver the customer experience, then the shoppers are going to shift loyalty and go to whichever retailer who can provide that experience.Stephanie:How do you make sure retailers aren't, maybe scrambling to keep up, because I'm thinking, a lot of times if a brand or a big company's lacking or falling behind, and then they start just grasping for everything. "Whatever technology's out there, I'm just going to do it all."Stephanie:Often times, maybe some of those are just fads. How do you guide retailers on, "This is something you're going to need for the next 10 years. This is the way of the future versus this, maybe you don't need virtual reality for everything right now. Maybe that's a fad and it's only for certain brands"? How do you guide them around what's important?KS:Yeah. Actually you can divide it into two parts. One is on the shopper's side, if you really look at it. If I'm a shopper and I want to shop anywhere and everywhere I want, now increasingly, you see that retailers are adopting a messaging app-based shop.KS:If I'm on the Snapchat and messaging to you, by the way, on the side, I'll be able to shop. Even on the messaging app-based shopping, there are one of the retailers, Levi's who recently launched a Bitmojis. All the emojis, they call it as Bitmojis.KS:They dress up the Bitmojis based on the Levi's collection. As you are in the messaging app, you can pick something and then shop. That's on the shopping side where they're looking at, "How do I leverage technology to go shop?"KS:When it comes to back end, once I shop, then whatever item I shop, and if I say that I'm going to come to this store near my home and pick it up from that store, that item should be there in that store. You don't want to have your inventory accuracy. If you don't have all the right information correctly available, the shopper, when he or she comes to the store, they're not going to find the item.KS:We call this as a precision retail. Sensormatic side, having all the technology that will enable the shopper to get the best experience when they go do the shopping, either in online. If they can do the shopping online, and come to the store and pick it up, or you go to the store and order it, and it gets delivered to the home.KS:The retailers need inventory information, accurately for them to deliver the best experience for the shopper. The technology that enables that, we call it as precision retail, because if you don't have very precise information in the retail operations today, you'll not be able to enable a better customer experience.Stephanie:What are some of the things that you think are pretty basic, that all retailers should have? Inventory management seems like a no-brainer. Also, seems like something a lot of retail locations struggle with. What are some of the other things that's, you need to have these five things to succeed?KS:Yeah. I would say that, definitely accurate inventory is a must. You cannot survive without having accurate inventory. Also, a easier way of meeting the customer wherever they are. If you have to meet the customer wherever we are, you need to provide multiple channels for me to shop with you.KS:I should be able to shop from my mobile app, or I should be able to shop from my desktop, or I should be able to come to the store and shop. I should be able to experience. If it is an experiential items, people would like to come to the store, have a very good experience of the item, then make the purchase process easy. Some of those technologies will become important.KS:The next one would be self-checkout and mobile checkout. It has become more prominent now because customers do not want to touch, they do not want to interact with the people. They would like to come in, look at the item, and then purchase and have a frictionless checkout. Frictionless checkout becomes an important technology implementation for retailers to learn.KS:If you take it little bit as part of an experiential store, you need the higher technology in terms of, you need to have much better bandwidth in the store, for you to have a good, digital experience. 5G technology will play a bigger role.KS:Also, experiential stores will have to provide more appropriate content and more appropriate digital experience and digital engagement in the stores. Digital engagement technology is going to be more important.KS:I forgot to touch upon, when I said inventory accuracy, you cannot get to a better inventory accuracy without having an RFID-based solution, at least in apparel retail and some of the other retail categories as well. RFID plays a important role in getting to a higher level of inventory accuracy. RFID technology will play a big role.KS:If you go further, there are going to be other technologies in the supply chain, and back of the store operations. You'll see that robots are playing a role. Not every store and not every category of the retailer will be able to leverage, but there are certain categories, robots will play a bigger role.KS:Then the technology that will enable ease of last mile delivery and then confirmation to the customer. For customer who are ordering online, they're getting delivered with one stroke. Again, that becomes very important.Stephanie:Awesome. What are some of the things that hold retailers back from doing this, because I know when I was talking with Joe from Intel, he was saying, "RFID can solve a lot of problems. Also, retailers, it's hard to get them to do that. There's so many solutions all around, but it's hard to get them to actually implement the technologies, to track the inventory, to track traffic, whatever it may be." What's the pushback?KS:Yeah. I would not call it as a pushback. I would say that most of the retailers, if you're a brick and mortar stored-based retail, and today, you have lot of business processes, well-defined in the store. How do you operate?KS:Now when you implement a RFID-based technology for getting a better inventory accuracy and better tracking of merchandise movement in the supply chain as well, now they need to change a whole lot of business processes on the retail side.KS:When they have to change business process, that means it's a change management in the organization. They need to manage that change more carefully and they need to retrain their employees with the new changed approach on how they are operate.KS:All those things takes lot of effort, and it costs money to get the employees trained as well as, and it also takes time to implement the technology. They need more tech-savvy associates also, in the store. All those things will require effort and money.KS:Whichever retailer has gone forward, and we make life easier for many of the retailers who wants to pursue RFID-based inventory implementation. I would say that you got a retail industry experts in our organization who can help the retailers to navigate this process very less painfully. Then we can help in, how do you transform the business process? How do you go about implementing it? What are the best ways to do it?KS:We bring in lot of best practices in the industry, to help with the retailer, and that's how we solve. We do have many customers whom we have really helped go through this transformation, and then migrated them to RFID-based inventory.Stephanie:What are you most excited about? When it comes to all the things you just listed, what are you really passionate about, that when you talk to a retailer you're like, "This is the way forward"? What excites you most?KS:Yeah. I would say that, it's really, look at AI technology today, it has disrupted every industry, not just the retail. I'm really fascinated about how it is getting adopted within retail.KS:If you really look at it, in the past, almost all the retail stores, retailers have implemented loss prevention security cameras. These are IP cameras for security surveillance. That's what it was used for.KS:Now suddenly with the advancement of AI technology, now you can leverage the existing IP cameras in the store, and then put in ... They call it as a Smart Hub. We partnered with Intel and developed an AI edge IoT box, an appliance. We call it as Smart Hub. That box, you put it in the store, connect all the camera streams to that store. Now suddenly the store becomes the most intelligent store.KS:You can do whole lot of use cases and whole lot of pain points which you can solve for the retailer. For example, given the pandemic time, we looked at, during the pandemic we partnered with Intel. We have been partnering with Intel for almost two years, and we accelerated this development with Intel and started developing occupancy tracking solution.KS:People wanted to have reduced number of shoppers in the store. They wanted to have mask compliance. People should be wearing mask. Then all of the shoppers should be maintaining social distance. All these things are new mandates, and the retailers wanted to maintain the health and safety of the store.KS:We quickly accelerated our AI partnership with Intel and developed this occupancy, social distance and mask detection solution in that while. Not only that, now that we have our Smart Hub, the Intel-powered Smart Hub, that Smart Hub enables you to develop lot more use cases.KS:Now if you are a loyal shopper to the retailer, and if you've opted in and if you're a loyal customer for that retail store, now since you've opted in, the moment you enter the store, I know that, "Hey, Stephanie is walking into the store. She is the most VIP customer. I need to handle her better. I need to address her needs better."KS:We can go and alert an associate to go address to Stephanie because she's a VIP customer. That's one option, one example, I'm saying. This opens up lot more newer use cases and newer ways of engaging the shoppers in the store, just leveraging the existing security cameras.KS:If you really look at other AI technology, all these stores have whole lot of sensors, and these sensors generate data. We put whole lot of sensors from Sensormatic. We generate lot of data. We generate data from inventory. We generate data about strength. We generate data about foot traffic, plus we have lot of camera-based, vision-based data.KS:Now, combining all this data, again we can apply artificial intelligence on the top, machine learning models on the top and deliver very, very prescriptive insights to the retailer. That's the direction we are headed now.Stephanie:I'm imagining a dashboard where you plug in a lot of your cameras. You're getting these insights. What would that dashboard look like for a retail worker who could just go up and look. It's like, "Okay, you need to close the door. You're at capacity, or you need to go and restock this one thing right now"? What does that look like, behind the scenes?KS:Yeah. Actually, take the example of an occupancy. If the retailer can specify, what are the allowed occupancy you want to permit in the store, and then configure that in the system. Then the cameras of the entry and the exit can keep counting how many people are walking in. We can also put a display at the entrance. It can show a red or a green indication.KS:Green means, the shopper can go in, and the red means, shopper cannot enter until it turns green. That's a simple indication. What happens is, there's whole lot of dashboard. Once you have all these data, you can create a whole lot of dashboard and provide.KS:More and more if we look at retail, they don't have enough resources to take care of the store efficiently. The pandemic has put lot more demand on their associates, to do more work, because they need to ensure the health and safety. They need to take care of several other things in addition to their job, which they used to do before.KS:Now nobody has so much time to look at dashboard and come to a decision. We saw this need, much ahead and that's where we have put together a strategy and executed our strategy to launch the Sensormatic IQ platform.KS:Now what happens is, as part of our platform journey we can take all this data. We can apply artificial intelligence, machine learning models and predict what is going to happen. Then once you predict what's going to happen, then we can prescribe an action. That prescriptive action, we can deliver it in the retailer's handheld device or any form, where we can push it to the device saying that, "Hey, now your back door is open, or your fire entrance is locked," or something like that.KS:If you see that in this particular hour ... Let's say I have the historical data of this street. From the historical data I can tell you that in this particular hour, there is a possible organized retail crime can come and hit this store at this point in time.KS:I can send an alert to this retail as a protection manager saying that, "Hey, you're likely to get hit with an ORC crime today. You may want to take a preventive action, and these are the possible preventive actions you can take." You can prescribe exactly, where the retailers need not look at the dashboard and deduce that information and come to that conclusion.Stephanie:Well, that's good. It seems like it would be so difficult to come up with prescriptive outcomes for retailers. I'm thinking about these models that you built in the background, and you've got one that has seasonality. You have another one's being hit by the pandemic in a bad way. The other one's in a good way.Stephanie:How do you think about training these models in the back end, so it works for everyone and gives outcomes that's not just being trained on false data that's, maybe a little blip?KS:It's a very good question actually. Now what happens is, there can't be two differences. Not every retailer will have the same model. The nature of AI itself is like that. You need to retrain the model based on the context.KS:It's not a long time. You take two to three weeks of training in that environment. Collect data and retrain the model for that outlet. That is one. That's bound to happen, when you deploy it. The other thing is, other interesting thing you'll see is, take the example saying that, for retailer A, I say that, "This particular hour, you're likely to get a ORC, crime event happening."KS:Retailer A and retailer B, both are likely to get hit with an ORC at a particular time, but retailer A might respond to that differently. They may want to respond to that differently, whereas retailer B might be want to respond to the same prediction differently.KS:One might say, "Hey, I want to shut down that entrance for an hour." I'm just telling hypothetically. Another might say, "I want to push all the high-value items that are closer to that entrance, to the back of the store." You can take two different actions for the same prediction.KS:That's why any prescriptive action we work on, we need to work closely with a retailer to understand what is their context. For that context, how do you have to respond, and then put that prescription into the implementation for them. It has to be a joint coworking with a customer to make it happen, actually. To make it successful.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. It seems like every retailer needs an in-house data scientist who can plug in a few inputs of, "Okay, we're running a local ad campaign this week. It's going to be very different. There's a parade coming on by. Everyone's going to want my Matcha tea."Stephanie:Being able to add their own little inputs that, maybe a model cannot pick up on. You always need human input into any kind of model.KS:Yeah. That's true.Stephanie:Yeah, but the training part seems tricky, when it comes to thinking about, how do you implement retail workers and make sure they're thinking in this data-oriented way? How do you train them? Seems like a hard problem for retailers.KS:Correct. That is where technology companies like ours can play a major role, I would say, that you have to take the complexity out of the retailer. Try to understand the context and then make it easier for them to embrace some of these new technology solutions. That's where we have to do all the heavy lifting, and support our customers.Stephanie:Cool. I want to talk a bit about ... I was reading an article about how you guys, and you were shifting the company from this hardware model, to moving to a more SaaS model with your products, but also Outcome as a Service model.Stephanie:I want you to touch on that a bit because I though it was super interesting. You hear the world where everyone wants to be a SaaS company, of course, right now. That's the way of the future, but the way you explained it, I thought was really unique and interesting about how it's outcome-oriented. I was hoping you can touch on that, a bit.KS:Yeah. Definitely, as I said, Sensormatic has been transforming our portfolio across the board, right from sensors to systems to software to cloud. We did do most of our hardware portfolio. We can ensure that, now, even if you have bought it in the past, we can go back to the customers, some of our old hardware.KS:We have a mechanism to connect our old hardware, IP-enable them and connect to the cloud. We have invested quite heavily in terms of, how do you IP-enable all the hardware and take the data to the cloud? That's done.KS:Now we do get the data for our loss prevention portfolio. We get the data for inventory, and traffic portfolio. Almost all of them have a SaaS offering, and we actively sell all our SaaS offerings in the market.KS:Now, we also built a data lake on the top of all our SaaS offerings. Now, we get loss prevention inventory and traffic data coming into the common data lake. Now that I have the data, which I can correlate between traffic to inventory or traffic to loss prevention. All those correlations, you can do and come up with predictions and then prescriptions as well.KS:There's still, all the SaaS offerings, like any other Software as a Service, we deliver that. When you talk about predictive prescriptive offerings, now what we can do is, the example, previously I gave. You don't want the retail associate to spend time analyzing the data and trying to keep the business context in mind. Then try to solve whatever is the business problem that he has to solve.KS:The only way the retail associate is going to solve the business problem is by taking an action. That action is an outcome, and it's for a business outcome. We will be able to go, analyze the data on behalf of our customers. Based on their context, by taking their contextual input and then come up with a predictions and prescriptions that are specific to that particular customer.KS:When they act on those prescriptions, they're going to get a business outcome. So you can ensure that whatever business outcome they are trying to solve, you can enable that using our technology.Stephanie:Got it. Very cool.KS:When you're able to do that, you call that as an Outcome as a Service, where you say that, "Okay. Now I'm not talking about technology. I'm not talking about SaaS. I'm just going to deliver a set of outcomes, and then that's what you're buying from us. For us to deliver that outcome, we have to use several sensors, systems, software, AI model, everything, to get to that outcome."Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. I think of so many different consumer SaaS companies where it's like, you buy it, you get into this subscription. I'm locked into a year. Then it's like, you don't really use it. Sometimes you don't even know how to.Stephanie:I think of some of these big BI tools where you get in there and you're like, "I don't ..." Then you're locked in. It's so nice, entering into a mindset of, "I'm going to actually have something that shows me a solution right away, how to act on it. I don't have to put on my data hat and start analyzing it and figuring out correlations. I'm going to have something at least guiding me on where to even start thinking about that," which is awesome.Stephanie:Do you see any new shifts or things popping up right now, in the world of retail that, maybe you weren't even expecting a month or two ago?Stephanie:You're like, "These are some new requests that are coming in from clients, where they're trying to understand X, Y or Z, or they're trying to understand this new omnichannel world." Is there anything new that, now you're like, "We need to build this. We need to get on this right now"?KS:Yeah. I would not say as it's directly coming from the client, and I will just tie it back to the shopper behaving trends that we are seeing. How that's going to be the norm in future, and then how it'll shape the retailer.KS:If you really look at it, everybody is looking for a unified experience. I should be able to buy online, and then pick it up in store, or curbside pickup.KS:Now, BOPIS and curbside pickup, we see that many shoppers, for the first time, they experimented with buying online and picking it up from store or curbside pickup. We have seen some surveys, one from Sensormatic, one from NRF and another from McKinsey. All these surveys indicate that more and more shoppers will go for BOPIS or curbside pickup-based fulfillment.KS:This is going to be a norm. You'll have to support it. not everybody is implementing it today, but you'll see that more and more retailers are going to go and implement that way. The other thing, other interesting trend we have seen during the pandemic is livestream-based shopping, where you do a livestream of an event. Then as part of the event, you wear all the fashion clothes that you want to promote. Then people who are watching the livestream can click on the items and then they can make a purchase.KS:Okay, now we saw Walmart do in partnership with TikTok. We saw also, Nordstrom do an event like that. More and more retailers are experimenting with the livestream. I believe that in future, more and more retailers will try to embrace this livestream-based shopping, more than what you see today. I can only dole out some examples now, but one or two years down the line, you're going to see more and more happening in that side.KS:The other area, also catching up is, there are retailers who had big format stores. They are shrinking the format to the smaller format, or experience-only stores. You don't see many doing that, but you see few retailers doing that.KS:The experience-only stores, you have items you'll not be able to buy. You'll not be able to pick the item from the store. You can go to the store, you can experience the item, touch and feel. There will be lot of digital experience to augment that.KS:Then at the end of that experience, if you decide you want to buy it, you place the order. The item will get delivered to your home. That's an experience-only store. That's another concept that's just picking up.Stephanie:Yeah, but the shipping has to be good on that, because to me, I feel like so many shoppers are like me, where they need it quick. If I'm going shopping somewhere, I'm like, I probably want it that day. I love the idea of, the inventory's there for you to try on and see what fits, and get the experience, but I also want it that day, if possible. One-day shipping. Is that so much to ask?KS:I get it. Yeah, I think there are some who'd like to experience, and then they're okay to get it delivered to home. On the same day, if it gets delivered, that's again, that's why we call it a precision industry. They have all the inventory. If they have everything readily available in that area, they may be able to deliver few on the same day. Right-Stephanie:Yeah.KS:... if they go down this path. Smaller format is like, again, bring in more digital experience. Don't consume too much space, and provide a more digital experience. Then stock and operate with a smaller format. That's another trend that's happening.Stephanie:Yeah, which is nice because it feels like there's a lot more opportunity to beta test and see what could work at a much smaller scale than, maybe a couple of years ago, where these retailers are like, "Go hard. Open up a big shop. Have all this inventory." Then they're like, "Darn, didn't really predict that well. This might not be the perfect location for it, or there's not as much foot traffic as I might have thought, because Blue Bottle just went out of business," or whatever it might be.Stephanie:It's nice to be able to have a little testing ground, and then pivot if needed. Consumers are actually okay with that model, I would think, where, maybe back in the day, they weren't.KS:Yeah, yeah. Also, you see another interesting trend that's happening is, now for retailers who are embracing the omnichannel experience where their shoppers can buy online. They're converting some of the stores into a fulfillment store. That's what led to BOPIS.KS:Another trend you'll see is dark stores, where they're converting some of the stores to be, completely a fulfillment center.Stephanie:Yeah.KS:There is no store experience there. You only go to that store to pick the item that you've ordered and then walk out, actually. That's another trend that's happening actually, to support the unified commerce experience.Stephanie:Yeah. What kind of industries do you think are fit to pull that kind of model, because I feel like there are some stores where ... Is there ever a good experience when you go on to certain stores you're like, "It's probably a hard no for this kind of store. I just need to get what I need to get"?Stephanie:What kind of industries do you think, it would work well to just have your store as a fulfillment center versus the Urban Outfitters of the world, you need the full on experience?KS:I think if you really look at, Whole Foods converted one of their stores into a dark stores.Stephanie:Wow. Whole Foods is an experience though. How could you do that?KS:The problem is, it depends upon what you are comfortable purchasing online, without experiencing. Then if you have that, then you can go and pick it up. You know all your standard items, what you normally buy, and you have experienced it already.KS:Now you don't want to waste time going into the store. You just order it. I don't want to waste time and go pick it up, and walk out.Stephanie:Got you.KS:There are items that are very standard. There's nothing much to experience, go down this path. There are items that you have experienced once. Now you like it and you don't want to change anything. You're certain about it. Go order and just pick it up. Those are the areas where it'll pick it up.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Do you think live streaming is actually going to penetrate the U.S., because I still just don't ... I feel like, actually, people here are getting burned out from live stuff. Clubhouse was big, everyone liked it. Now everyone's like, "Oh, so much work. I have to be on the entire time. I have to think hard and really jump on that deal, if it is live."Stephanie:It just feels like we all got in this stressful rat race of everything live. Now it seems like people are pulling back to the more, at least TikTok. Little bit more preplanned, Instagram, Pinterest, of really think about and be more mindful about their purchases.KS:Correct.Stephanie:Do you think that's coming here?KS:It is coming here. I feel that the Gen Z, even today, it is ... If I go to my son who is 18 years old, I can never take him to a retail store. They still prefer to shop everything online. They would like to see it online.KS:For a certain segment of shoppers, there may be a segment of shoppers who'll still be interested in shopping through livestream or shopping through the app. There will be certain shoppers who still feel comfortable, because we all grew up in an age of going to the store, and experiencing it and buying it.KS:We are more in need for a socially, going out and interacting and getting it. Such shoppers will continue to go to the stores, but there will be a segment of shoppers who'll continue to buy through livestream. Even if everything becomes normal, 100% of stores are open worldwide, there may be a segment of shoppers who'll shop, I feel.Stephanie:Okay. Yeah, that'll be interesting to watchStephanie:All right, well, let's shift over to the lightning round, if we can. The lightning round's brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud.Stephanie:This is where I ask you a question, and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready? Yeah.Stephanie:Okay. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?KS:Oh. Anybody who helps me. I grew up in a world of gratitude. Anybody who does any remote help, I feel nice about it. Even small things, I feel very nice about it actually. It may not be a bigger thing.Stephanie:Okay.KS:There are a lot, actually, if you really ask me.Stephanie:All right.KS:I would say, I'm blessed. Every day, I get so many gifts in terms of people helping me.Stephanie:I love that. What's one thing your kids have taught you, that made you shift your idea on E-commerce or retail? You talked about live streaming, but what else have they taught you recently, that you're like, "Whoa, mind-blowing. Never would have thought about it that way, but you're 18, so you know everything"?KS:Yeah. If you ask me, I cannot buy a shirt or a pant without getting a feel for the cloth or fitting. Without getting a feel for the apparel. My kids will not even blink their eye in terms of ordering it. By looking it online, and ordering it online.KS:Even after they receive it, and if it's not good, they don't mind quickly returning it as well, actually. I find that as a hassle, but I learned from my kids that, it's a way of life. The first time I could sense that E-commerce is going to get adopted in a big way was from my kids, I would say.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. What's one thing, or piece of technology that you don't understand today, that you wish you did?KS:The technology of 5G as well as, currently, people are talking about 6G. I used to work in a telecom industry. I used to play close attention to these two technologies. The pace in which 5G took, caught me by surprise. Then I had to go catch up.KS:Now I'm getting tuned to all the 6G news which people are pushing. Now I'll pay more attention so that I don't do the same mistake I did with 5G.Stephanie:How do you stay on top of all of the E-commerce trends? What do you read? What do you listen to? What do you do each day, to stay on top of that?KS:Yeah. I subscribe to a lot of ... Now today, gathering information is not a problem at all. I subscribe to all kinds of thing. You get McKinsey, Deloitte, Sears-based retail and so many other retail subscriptions and technology subscriptions.KS:Best time for me to catch up on that is mostly in the weekends. I spend couple of hours looking at all the things. That's how I catch with the technology and the trends.Stephanie:Well, KS, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Sensormatic Solutions?KS:Thank you. Thank you, Stephanie. It's a pleasure talking to you. Hope to talk to you again.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. Tell me where people can find you though? Where should people look up Sensormatic Solutions?KS:People can find me in LinkedIn, and the company, Sensormatic Solutions' webpage as well, they can find me.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.

That first online sale plus the first time a retailer agrees to carry your product are always exciting. But when you can't meet the demand of your online customer base or your design process is slowed and shipments are delayed, that's when the headaches come twofold. But when your mission, and your product, is something you truly believe in and think can leave a lasting impact, you take all the good with the bad and keep on pushing forward. For Stojo, a company that produces collapsible, leak-proof cups and containers, there have been wins and losses of every kind, and CEO Jurrien Swarts has been riding the waves as his company tries to get a piece of a $22 billion industry. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jurrien takes us through what it has been like to design, launch, and distribute Stojo's game-changing product. Plus, he guides us through how difficult it is to scale and market a business, and what it takes to make hard choices like laying off and rebuilding a staff. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Digging the Design: When it comes to delivering a product out to the market, it has to work in a number of different ways. The internal team needs to be invested in the design and believe in that product, but you also have to be willing and able to take outside feedback from customers in order to iterate and expand. Find stakeholders who can contribute in meaningful ways and trust them to keep making the product better.Punch Above Your Weight: Sometimes you have to get scrappy and find ways to compete without the help of big budgets or a ton of staff. In these instances, there are avenues to explore that offer high returns for very little investment as long as you can find the right partners. Influencer marketing is one of those areas and, when small companies make the right connections, they can compete at or above the level of any big brand.Sharing is Caring: In the past, it was uncommon and even frowned upon to share information, best practices, financials, or anything else that could be seen as a competitive advantage. The younger generations, though, value transparency and many DTOC and DTC brands that are run by millennials and Gen Z are embracing the idea of information sharing in order to help themselves become more data-driven.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today, I'm chatting with Jurrien Swarts, the co-founder and CEO of Stojo. Jurrien, welcome.Jurrien:Hey. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on. I was looking through Stojo a bit and your background. What was very interesting to me... You can tell me if this is wrong, but I saw a quote where it's like you and your co-founders were reading 4-Hour Workweek and that's how this came about, which to me was wild because everyone's read 4-Hour Workweek, but I've never actually heard of someone creating a company based off that model. I wanted to hear a bit about what was going on back then. Tell me the whole story.Jurrien:It's kind of wild. I was at Credit Suisse and had a colleague. He was actually my manager. We got into this habit of going for runs every day during our lunch hour and we had this two-guy reading book club going. One of the books that we eventually got to was Tim Ferriss' 4-Hour Workweek.Jurrien:If you read it, you could either create something because you're a creative, which today I'll call myself a creative but at the time, I was like, "I'm not a creative. I can't sing. I can't write. I can't..." They were like, "But you can also make something, preferably in China," I think was the guidance. I said, "Well, I speak Chinese. I've always had a thing for product and design. Just personal interest. Why don't we see if we can come up with one of those?"Jurrien:So we started to brainstorm and a few weeks after having read the book, or even maybe a month, Alex comes in and he goes, "I got the perfect idea. How about a collapsible coffee cup that goes in your pocket so it's easy to take with you on your commute and travel?" I was like, "That's not a great idea." I didn't really like it. I was just like, "Whatever."Jurrien:Another couple weeks pass by and I was actually in the shower, where I have a lot of aha moments. What's funny is the more I talked to other founders and other people, a lot of people have a place where they have their aha moments. For me, it's driving on the interstate long-haul between home to whatever or in the shower.Jurrien:I had a vision of my grandmother's daycare setup where she used to have the dishwashing rack. She'd always have the baby bottles lined up, taken apart. If you're familiar with those, they have a plastic reservoir, a plastic collar and a silicone nipple. It creates a leakproof type of seal with the screw on. I realized that if I took a collapsible dog bowl or [inaudible] type cup and put a lid on it like that, we actually could create this leakproof coffee lid that would actually help make this thing work.Jurrien:When I had that discovery, did some sketches and figured out that "Hey, we're on to something here." That's how it all started. That was 2011.Stephanie:So let's get back to your aha moment in the shower. You're like, "I know how to create a collapsible cup that won't leak." What did the process look like after that?Jurrien:Again, dating it 2011, '12. Rapid prototyping was just becoming a thing. They had things like the first 3D printers, et cetera. When you're making a durable good, you have the industrial design thing, you have the CAD files that have to get developed. When we went and priced that out, we were getting quotes of $30,000 to get to a prototype and maybe one or two iterations, way beyond the budget of what are significant others were going to allow us to spend. My co-founder, Alex Abrams, was the guy that I worked with at Credit Suisse. When we got that price tag, we knew there was no chance that our wives were going to sign off on that. We were just like, "Okay, this is done."Jurrien:A month later, Alex is at a Halloween party with his kids and he runs into Ben Melinger, who he was a fraternity brother at UPenn with. Ben had been a consultant and quit that job to work on a concept he had for a water bottle. He self-taught himself how to do CAD drawings.Jurrien:We said, "Ben, how's that water bottle going?" He's like, "I don't really know how to get it launched," et cetera. "Well, we have a project for you if you're interested." He said, "Sure," and so we made him an even partner. He did the CAD for the free, and then we started prototyping. That's how we took it to the next level.Jurrien:I guess for anybody who wants to do a product design thing, if you don't have the money for a designer and industrial engineer and you could expect to spend anywhere from 20 to $50,000 just to get that design work and prototyping done, find a co-founder who can industrial design and bring them in. It's the best way to do it because there's going to be countless iterations. You want somebody who's really vested in the product to make sure that what you come up with is really exceptional, and it's not just somebody who's doing it as a consulting gig and just wants to check it off their list and move on to the next project.Stephanie:I was going to ask, then, about how do you view... Especially maybe back in 2011, it's definitely probably newer but now, it seems like everyone is doing that, launching [inaudible], getting prototypes quickly. Do you feel like it's in a different place now, where you can maybe just go on an Upwork and hire someone to create 20 different designs for you? Do you think the world is different now where you might not actually need to find a co-founder?Jurrien:Yeah, I definitely think that. I mean, I think the power of Upwork and 99designs, things like that, is that it's open to folks who are living in areas of the world that are much cheaper to live in, and so you can actually get incredibly work out of Eastern Europe, out of parts of Southeast Asia, Asia. I've definitely gotten lots of help there.Jurrien:It comes down to your aesthetic and your attention to detail and your ability to curate and manage that process. But for anybody starting out, I'd say go for it. What do you got to lose other than some time and money? Usually, you get really good learnings from that stuff. I think that's totally a viable place to go. The other one is if you're college age or recent graduate and you had an engineering school in your school, you might have people that you can find that way as well who'd like to do it just for portfolio building, or just maybe you want to start a company together.Stephanie:Love that. What was your first sale like? Do you remember getting that first sale?Jurrien:Well, yeah. We had two first sales, if you will. We're an omni-channel business. We have our website and we do Amazon, and then we sell to brick and mortar retailers.Jurrien:The first sale was when we launched our Kickstarter in June of 2014, when we got that first backer and then the euphoria around that, having created a product, done a video, put together a campaign and then pressed Go was... It was really, really incredible.Jurrien:And then what was the fun thing about that was we went from zero dollars and passed our goal of 10,000 prior to midnight that same day. That was really great. Ultimately, we did... I think it was $128,000 on Kickstarter, so 12, 13 times what we'd set out to raise, which was... We needed the 10K to cover the tooling. That was really exciting.Jurrien:And then when we actually went commercial... So I left my job at Credit Suisse in the summer of 2015. The coolest thing was when the MoMA Design Store buyer came and found us somehow—probably through Kickstarter—and asked for samples. And then they actually bought our cup, and so we were being sold in the MoMA Design Store. It's like our first retail relationship. That was really special, as somebody who cares about art and design.Stephanie:That's awesome. So then after you were there, is that how other stores... You're in Anthropologie, I think Whole Foods. Is that how they found you, by just having that first retail customer, or did-Jurrien:No.Stephanie:... you get those partnerships in other ways?Jurrien:I mean, that was a slog. 2015 until May of 2018, I was a one-man band. My co-founders kept their day jobs and were involved in various ways, but for all intents and purposes, I was the one that I was all in. I had to learn and teach myself every aspect of the business.Jurrien:Frankly, I wasn't very good at the sales part of it. We got a little stop-start with Bed Bath, but our packaging wasn't quite right. We had supply chain issues just because of cash flow. We didn't have the right merchandising.Jurrien:It took bringing on a professional consultant, who's actually still with us today, is great, who really knew the retail category and specifically hydration and coffee tumblers. It's a pretty big category in the US. It's like a 22 billion-dollar segment.Stephanie:Wow.Jurrien:If you think about it, every major retailer, gas station, dollar store, every store is selling hydration. Getting somebody who really knew how that worked and then just slogging it out for a bunch of years, going to the trade shows, getting press where you can, evolving our product... We started with a 12-ounce cup, which was great for New York City-based commuter who goes to the corner deli and gets the 10 or 12-ounce cup of coffee that's the standard coffee in New York City. It also really works out really good for the UK, Australia, countries where they drink smaller beverages. But guess what? In the US, most people drink 16 or 20 or 24-ounce coffees. Our cup actually wasn't really optimized for scaling in the United States.Jurrien:It took until 2018 until we introduced what we call the biggie, the 16-ounce cup, and we added a straw because southern part of the country actually drinks a lot of sweet tea, iced tea, iced coffee for most of the year. Moving away from a hot-only, small, single-serve cup of coffee to something that's more common to the US market, that really helped propel us.Jurrien:And then we also moved away from... We started with some really primary colors. When I decided I was going to start a brand and really grow Stojo into something, I really liked how S'well approached the market. The way that I saw that play was they went hard after a very certain demographic, the [inaudible], female, millennial, Gen Z consumers. I saw that we could probably do something like that.Jurrien:Being in New York City, Brooklyn, I thought that's a pretty natural fit for me to target that demographic and try to have my sustainable product be almost like a fashion accessory. When we did that, that's when I think we started to appeal to the Anthros, the Madewells, the Food52s, the Whole Foods, et cetera.Stephanie:How did you go about that? Because I look at companies like S'well and a lot of the brands that are in Anthropologie and I'm like, "How they got there is so much through marketing." I mean, you can walk in maybe a TJ Maxx and see tons of S'well style [inaudible], stuff like that, where oh, looks pretty similar but the way they did it, like you said, attracted a certain kind of customer where it's like, "I'm a fan. I'm not going to [inaudible]."Stephanie:How did you go about it to become like that as well? What did you start implementing? What kind of marketing were you doing? What did that look like?Jurrien:A lot of it was, I think, just intuitive in the sense that since a very young age, I was always a consumer of brand. I liked brand. I would buy products based on their aesthetic, their utility, but also what the company's doing and saying.Jurrien:One of my favorite brands of all time was United Colors of Benetton. What appealed to me growing up in a really small northeastern mill town which was predominantly white, almost 99.9%, was seeing this just calico quilt of different representations of human beings and bright colors. Everybody in the photo shoots always looked like they were having a great time. I was just like, "Yeah, man. That's what I want in life. I want to be around beautiful, different people," et cetera. Jurrien:I think that always stuck with me. When it came time for me to helm my own brand, what I wanted to do... And I was also watching things like TOMS, Honest Company, looking at the Acumen Fund and their activities. I came from Credit Suisse where I was tangentially involved in a lot of socially-responsible investment activities for clients. I said, "You know what? I want to build a brand that does this, that's mission and purpose-driven."Jurrien:On the one hand, I have my sustainability message, and then I have control over the storytelling and the imagery that I want to put out there. What I want to do is appeal to people who want to support brands that they think are conducting themselves in society in the right way because it's the right thing to do and not because they have to do it or because it's the most expedient or the most profitable thing to do. I think that's the stand that I took, and then the rest was more... Because we're bootstrapped, I got a little bit more sophisticated in terms of the look and the feel of Stojo every year as I was able to hire people and bring on professionals. When we were shooting our own photography and I was doing my own graphic layout in PowerPoint, it's a very different look than when you start actually hiring designers and paying for photo shoots and then leveraging influencers, et cetera. There was an evolution.Stephanie:It seems like to build a brand like that, you have to rely pretty heavily on influencers. When I think about some of the brands that have really shot up recently, it does seem like that's one of the most strategic angles, to partner with someone who has your values and ideals and also the audience you want to reach. Is that a big part to your marketing playbook, or just a small part of it?Jurrien:It's huge. But interestingly, we've only really started intentionally and systematically, strategically, tactically flexing into that since, I'd say, August of last year. What happened was the height of the pandemic, we had to let go of half of our staff. We were about 20 people. We cut back to 10, to the most necessary. Really hard to do.Jurrien:But when we did that, one of the things that came from that was that we let go of our CMO, who was very high salary, recruited from a big place. The remit that he had was to help us scale this really quickly. We thought we were going to scale a lot faster than we ultimately did.Jurrien:When that all fell away, I just partnered up, actually, with my romantic partner, my life partner, Megan. She joined the team as a fractional CMO brand creative lead and she started implementing all these things.Jurrien:We were like, "What are we going to do with no budget? How can we do this? We got to get really scrappy. We don't have any money to spend. We have to be breakeven or profitable every month we can."Jurrien:The influencer strategy is one of those things that if your brand has the right market acceptance and fit and you can relate to the right individuals, it's a really, really interesting way to go. We've had a bunch of success there, but we're really still only getting started. But there's definitely a ton of brands that are those challenger brands that have done a lot of incredible work utilizing that. We're always watching what other people are doing and learning from it.Jurrien:Frankly, there's a lot of us who are starting to talk behind the scenes, management teams and making intros and talking to each other at roundtables and just sharing a lot of data and information. It's making us a lot more scrappy, successful. We're starting to punch above our weight, I think. A lot of DTOC brands are doing that.Stephanie:Yeah, because I was going to say it feels like the DTOC world is much more eager to share best practices and talk behind the scenes versus... I mean, we have podcasts covering basically all the C-suite and I hadn't really heard of a bunch of CMOs getting together and talking about best practices or the first 90 days, or CIOs. It seems like it's harder to do there, then all these new DTOC brands are like, "Let's all work together."Stephanie:How are you finding that community? Why do you think everyone's so eager to work together and share successes and failures?Jurrien:Well, I think it's structural and it's generational. If you got a big incumbent brand, they are recruiting from a very well-known set of folks in the C-suite. They've been doing what they're doing and it's working. They're sophisticated and they know their stuff.Jurrien:It works for them, given their size and scale. When you have billions of dollars in revenue and you're like, "My marketing budget is 10% of revenue," you know what you've got month to month, quarter to quarter. When you're a millennial or Gen Z-run brand, a lot of us just started doing it out of hey, happenstance from necessity.Jurrien:There's a lot of studies out there that if you're reading the blogs in Medium and LinkedIn and stuff like that that talk about... Even the New York Times, Wall Street Journal talk about how millennials are way more willing to share and talk about their personal finances, their negotiating tactics, how much they're making per salary, how much they paid for their house, their car.Jurrien:I think there's a lot of us understand that being transparent... And we kind of chatted about it a little bit about my personal approach to it before the show. When you share information with other people, if you're doing it to brag or whatever, that's one thing, and I think the older generation always thought that sharing is distasteful. You don't do it. It's not done.Jurrien:But I always ask, "Well, I don't know these things. You know these things. I'm asking because I'm trying to gather information and make data-driven decisions." DTOC brands and really good startups are all taking in data and tracking KPIs. They're making data-driven decisions. Not to say everything's data-driven, but there's a lot more of it.Jurrien:In our industry, everything's pretty opaque. I don't have the money to spend $10,000 for research on this one little thing, but I can certainly hop on a call, have a beer, share a coffee with somebody and just pick their brain.Jurrien:I think a lot of us are starting to do that. When you lead with vulnerability, transparency, authenticity—which these are all values we share and aspire to in our team, and it's part of what Stojo's about—and you say to somebody, "Hey. I don't know everything. I'm here to share anything you might need or want to ask but today, you have some information that I need. Would you be willing to share it? This is how I'm going to use it." 90% of the time, people are super thrilled to just be connecting on a real level and finding somebody that "Oh my God, this person respects me. They're a peer. I can help them and they can help me."Jurrien:It's a beautiful thing and it's really a metaphor for where we need to go as a society, is instead of thinking about everything as zero-sum games, just talking about how do we all get to happiness and balance and Shangri-La or whatever... I'm overstating a little bit, but this idea of just because I'm winning doesn't mean you have to lose. We can all win. We're going to be around for a long time. Who knows? Maybe one day, we'll collaborate together on something, et cetera.Jurrien:I try to foster that as much as I can. I really encourage people who are on the fence about hey, will this make me look weak or naïve or whatever, don't let that get in the way. Just think about what you have to gain, which is information that you didn't have before you asked the question and took that chance. What do you have to lose? Somebody that you don't really know is going to, I don't know, talk about you or-Stephanie:Not respond?Jurrien:Yeah, exactly. Or say no. I think training yourself to do that is part and parcel with becoming an entrepreneur and a leader.Jurrien:We shared our parenthood. The cool stuff about a lot of what happens in a startup environment and especially in me as a CEO, it's very similar to being a parent. You're kind of the CEO of the household. A lot of the stuff you're strong at or weak at extends to both areas of your life. You can actually get a lot of learnings and personal growth through comparing and contrasting methodologies and approaches at home and at work.Stephanie:I think there's not much of a separation between those two, especially now. The other day, I did this human design reading and test. Have you done this before?Jurrien:No, no.Stephanie:You might like it.Jurrien:Sounds awesome. Tell me more.Stephanie:Essentially, it tells you, "This is the design of who you are and how you might operate." I'll send it to you afterwards, actually.Jurrien:Oh, please do.Stephanie:You would really dig it. You need to have someone who understands how to read it, but it was very applicable to life and with kids and your partner, and then also thinking about business. It was saying certain things to me that I think I never had words, of like I felt a certain way, but then when she went through and was like, "Oh, Stephanie, you are an unconscious alpha. You need to lead in this kind of way, but you don't feel like you should be an alpha." I mean, it sounds a little woo-woo, but everything she has gone through I was-Jurrien:No, it doesn't sound woo-woo at all.Stephanie:I was digging it. It made me rethink how I even thought about myself when it came to work and life and just how it's all one and how to approach it in a completely different way than five years ago where it's like keep it separate. Don't try and mingle them together. That's when it gets messy. It was great.Stephanie:I think that's where the world's headed. Certain people are trying to just adjust to that new way of thinking now and is this even okay. It's okay.Jurrien:I love that. Please share. When say that, it's interesting. There's a lot of dogma that we are raised with as children that worked for the prior generation, or maybe it didn't, and we're stress testing everything nowadays.Jurrien:The one good thing about all the information sharing and the putting everything out there is that you get to try and think about and discard things a lot faster. You don't have to be pretty about it. I think this rapid prototyping and hacks approach that started with startups is now spilling over into dieting... Or not dieting, just the way you eat, the way you live, the way you sleep, the way you relate to your family and friends. I think it's going to bring about some really rapid shifts in human consciousness for the better.Stephanie:I mean, the whole world is changing that way. I think that's where any bubbling up around... Even the US right now is having issues because people are starting to... They're meeting people 3,000 miles away. They're finding their community in different ways. It's not all just based off like, "I live here" anymore and we're the same within this one city. I mean, now people are thinking very different and finding their communities and having more of a voice by coming together more than we've ever had before.Stephanie:The whole world's changing so rapidly and people are trying to figure out, "How do I keep up with this? Do I stick with our roots of how my parents' parents' parents have always done it this way, or can I expand and do something different and live like a nomad and go where I want and find my people and have an impact on the world in a different way?"Stephanie:So tell me a bit about was there an inflection point with the sales at your company where it's like you were a solo person for a while, your other co-founders were working full-time, you were trying to build these partnerships and you're like, "I need a consultant that can help me with retail." When was there an inflection point where you're like, "Whoa. Now, we're off to the races. I need to hire. I need help"? And how many [inaudible]? What was that level when you're like, "Now, we're about to go fast and I need to hire [inaudible]"?Jurrien:Let me give everybody just a really high-level overview on what happened from 2014 to today. We raised capital on Republic, the crowdfunding site, so a lot of that information is public to the extent it's appropriate and stuff.Jurrien:So we were bootstrapped. I started with 125K from my family and a friend, just a small little check to get started, plus the 128K that we did on Kickstarter. Before that, I think we each chipped in 10K. I think we had 20K and then we did the 128 capital raise. We did another failed, but 20K Indiegogo in 2016. Raised 125 in capital, then did a small bridge round before I raised my first round. I'll just lay that out because I think it's instructive and informative for people who don't come from the typical equity-raising background.Jurrien:In 2015, I had a half year of commerce. That was internet and online. We did about 200K in sales. The next year, we did 340,000. The next year, we did 405,000 or something like... I can't remember the exact numbers. This is all me by myself, so 2015, '16, '17.Jurrien:In 2018, we came back from some trade shows. The houseware show happens in the spring in Chicago and in Frankfurt. I actually got some international distributors. Suddenly, the orders started coming in from them because Asia and Europe were actually ahead of the curve over the US in terms of buying into sustainable, reusable products. We actually started getting distribution in foreign countries.Jurrien:The orders started coming in and there were too many. I'd just had my second child, who was not even a year. I wasn't getting sleep and I was just overworked, just dogging it. I had to hire a person.Jurrien:I hired Jake, our COO. He's still with us today. He came from MALIN + GOETZ. I brought him in. I interviewed him on a Friday and I had him at work on a Monday. I was like-Stephanie:Wow. When you know, you know.Jurrien:... "Dude, I need your help." Yeah. I just was like, "This is the guy. I want him in here." He started on Monday and he took over all these purchase orders that had come in.Jurrien:We thought we were going to do a million dollars in 2018. We ended up doing 2.7 million dollars in revenue.Stephanie:Wow, wow.Jurrien:That's when I was like, "Okay, I have a growth trajectory here that will look good enough to investors to try and raise a small C round." I did a pitch night at WeWork, where I was using their offices. We ended up getting I think second place in this pitch. They made a 75,000-dollar investment. With that, I was able to raise basically about 700K, which brought my lifetime capital raise to a million bucks.Jurrien:From there, we hired the team in 2019. I got somebody focused on sales and marketing. I got customer service. I got a designer. And then we ended up, at the tail end of the year, bringing on after we did not get picked to go on Shark Tank... Because we were holding for that to see if we got an investment. They passed on us, and so I decided, "Okay, I'm going to plow ahead and then beginning of 2020, I'm going to raise another round."Jurrien:We were able to get to 6.5 million in revenue, 6.5 or 6.7 in revenue in 2019, and had a team of 10. And then the plan was to raise our mini A or our next seed B or whatever you'd call it. We didn't really fit in a good category, but we're going to try and raise two to four million dollars at the next level evaluation.Jurrien:So I started hiring the team out. That's how from January to April 1st, we hired and we were at 20 people. We'd extended the last two offers right before the pandemic hit, and they were set to start on April 1. I think we gave them their offers the week before the pandemic hit. They were going to start two weeks later. We're up to 20 people and we're on a trajectory where we thought we were going to double revenue again. What in fact happened was we were unable to grow year over year in 2020.Jurrien:We'd hired a team that was supposed to preside over a 14 or 15 million-revenue company and we were going to be a six million-dollar revenue company again. We had to cut the staff. It was really, really difficult to manage through that. I'd never done that before.Jurrien:That's where we're at now. We're at the 10 people range. We're starting to hire again. We're pretty confident that we're going to have a doubling of revenue again this year. It's looking like a really strong year. We have some amazing launches coming up, et cetera. We're starting to build.Jurrien:What was kind of a blessing in disguise was that when we cut back the staff last year, we realized that what we really needed to be much more scrappy was a different kind of a team than I had envisioned. A year ago, I was one person. I'd never scaled before, never managed that many people, all these things.Jurrien:Today, where we are today is we know much more what we need, and we have agencies to fill the gaps where we don't have justification for a full-time head. Now, our forward-looking hiring plan is much more based on profitability, certain KPIs that we have and then just very real needs that we've already established because we have agencies and we're paying them X. We know when that expenditure gets to this, then we can justify a full-time head. There's a lot of great learnings from going through that, even though it wasn't easy.Stephanie:Sometimes I think those forced adjustments end up being the best learning... I mean, we had to go through the same thing at my company had to lay off half the team not due to COVID. It was back in 2019. At the time, it felt like the worse thing that could ever happen, crying on the phone. Most of these employees were my friends.Stephanie:But now, looking back and being like, "So many good lessons in that." [inaudible] how to hire, like you said. Do you actually need a full-time employee? How do you justify an FTE versus an agency versus having a one-off contractor? It ends up being a hard lesson but longterm, sometimes companies that go through this blitz are able to come out on the other side stronger than before.Jurrien:Very much agreed and actually, I'll call something out again, I think, for the benefit of any listeners who are those entrepreneurial-minded, startup type people shooting for the sky because I'm one of them. That's why I'm sitting where I sit. If you talk to investors, a lot of times investors are not those people. They're actually the pragmatists and the realists. They've literally seen thousands of businesses like yours do either one of two things. They're usually much more disciplined and pragmatic. I think a lot of times, COOs, CFOs, those type of people also tend to have those personalities.Jurrien:What ends up happening is as an entrepreneur who's like, "I just need to make sure that we don't stall. We got to get it done. I have to make a decision now so I can go on and do the other 50 things on my plate," a lot of times there's a lot of inefficiency in that decision-making process. It's just guessing. What has to happen over time is the company needs to be run less on the seat of the pants and less on intuition and much more on discipline and just time-tested tactics of sound business principles.Jurrien:That's what, at a very high level, happened to you in 2019 and what happened to me. As a founder going through that injects you with a sense of realism and it matures you.Jurrien:It gives you wisdom, I think, that prior to that, because everything was on the up, you didn't really have that. You didn't have time for naysayers. You were defying all odds. Now, it's like no, it's not just about my vision and me anymore. It's actually a company and I have a responsibility to all these people. Accounting principles are going to define whether or not I'm still a business a year from now. I have to listen to those.Jurrien:I think that's the shift that can happen. It's really powerful when you go through that lesson. Your company doesn't implode. You come out through the other side of it. Those are learnings you're never going to unlearn.Stephanie:Yep, yep. I also think the emotions lead the scene where it's like during the time, you're just like, "Horrible," crying, the worst. Thinking about it now, it's how I would even operate, it's like you just... It is a cut-and-dried thing. You've got good margins or you don't. You're profitable or you're don't. Here's your [inaudible]. If it's not there, it's not there. There's no amount of friendships and feel-good anything that's going to fix that-Jurrien:Exactly.Stephanie:... I think, was one of the one of the top lessons for me.Jurrien:That actually ties back to that point that I made: if you don't take care of yourself first, you can't take care of others. If the company isn't sound and it can't pay its bills and keep the lights on, you can't employ all these lovely people who of course depend on you and trust in you and rely on you. But you have to make decisions as the leader in ways that will keep the boat afloat or keep the greater good going. Sometimes, you unfortunately have to make decisions that aren't popular, you don't like, you feel terrible about. But it's not about that.Stephanie:Thousand percent agree with all of that. I know we are running out of time, but I want to do the lightning round with you because I think you're going to have some epic answers.Jurrien:Oh, geez. No pressure.Stephanie:Uh-oh. Lightning round's brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Jurrien:I think so.Stephanie:All right, first one. I'm secretly curious about what?Jurrien:What the profitability metrics are of the top 20 DTOC brands.Jurrien:The real deal on the numbers.Stephanie:That's a good one, I thought, though. Something wise my elders taught me was...Jurrien:To always make eye contact and listen to what the person's saying and give it a moment before you respond.Stephanie:That's a good one. You're very good at that. You made eye contact the whole time. Good job. What's up next on your reading list or on your podcast list? What are you diving into these days?Jurrien:Jesse Pujji did a podcast, Invest with the Best, I think it is, where he was talking about his approach to performance marketing. I've listened to it twice and I want to hear it again because it's so thick. That's one.Jurrien:Then there's this other podcast that I can share. I'm terrible with names and remembering things like that, but it was two of the original folks, the early hires at Amazon. They talked about the Amazon memo and narrative and the PR/FAQ approach. We're actually employing that at Stojo right now. Again, very incredible paradigm shift in the way of managing and sharing and presenting information and coming to decisions. So two things I'd highly recommend to people.Stephanie:Cool. I'll have to look that one up and drop it in our show notes. What do you when you want to feel more joy?Jurrien:I like a little bit of cannabis as a night cap and I really like to run.Stephanie:Nice. All right, and the last one. This may be a little bit different than cannabis, but same same. What's one thing that will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Jurrien:Oh, that's funny. I think the battle of Facebook-Apple. I'm really interested to see what happens there, how we figure out how to continue with attribution and respect people's rights to privacy.Jurrien:My gut, if you think about the right thing, is we should attribute a commercial value to everybody's data. I as a individual should have the right to monetize and share that data. People should pay for it. Because I'm okay with people having my data because I think it leads to better decision-making and better functionality of the whole machine, but I want to know who's got it and how they're using it. I think there should be value for it for anybody.Stephanie:I agree. All right, Jurrien. Well, it's been such a fun interview. Thank you for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Stojo?Jurrien:God. Look me up on LinkedIn. Check Stojo's Instagram and our website, obviously, and then give this podcast a listen.Stephanie:Yes. Do it. All right, well thanks so much for coming on. It's a blast. Been a blast.Jurrien:Thanks so much for having me, Stephanie. And Hilary, thanks for your work on the back end there. Really appreciate it.

It’s not easy to keep a digital audience engaged. And it’s especially hard when the product you’re trying to engage them with is … produce. And yet, Avocados From Mexico has set a gold standard for what it means to build a funnel and engage an online audience and it has somehow found the secret recipe for success (and also guacamole).On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I was excited to talk to Ivonne Kinser, the Head of Digital Marketing and Ecommerce for Avocados From Mexico, and learn her many tales about how the company has used out-of-the-box ideas to take something that rarely gets marketing love — produce — and turn it into must-engage-with content. She took us behind the scenes of creating one of the top digital campaigns for multiple Super Bowls, and she dove into what the future of digital marketing looks like, including why Avocados From Mexico has been ahead of the trends when it comes to things like NFTs and blockchain. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Impressions Matter: Impressions are a metric that often is hard to really judge the importance of. But when you can correlate impressions to search activity, it becomes clear that building an awareness of the brand through impressions and exposure can drive conversations on social media. This in turn leads to more Google searches and native activity on a brand’s page.Eternal Iteration: You have to iterate constantly in order to adapt to changing consumer behavior. Constantly changing your platform is not a signal that your platform is failing or wrong, in fact it’s a sign that you are staying on the cutting edge and trying to meet consumer expectations at every turn.The Powers That Be: When setting a path for the future, it’s important to differentiate between trends and fads that will come and go and the forces that will actually drive companies and consumers toward a new way of operating long-term. For example, rather than get caught up in the hot new social network or gaming platform, think about investing in the technology that powers that network (A.I., ML, 5G, AR/VR, etc).For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey there. And welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Ivonne Kinser who currently serves as the head of digital marketing and ecommerce for Avocados From Mexico. Ivonne, welcome to the show.Ivonne:Hi. Thank you for the invite.Stephanie:Yes. So happy to have you on. I think I just spent an hour going through your guys' website and then I got hungry and I realized it's probably not best to have avocados and salsa right before an interview. So let's see how it goes, I was willing to take the risk.Ivonne:Maybe it's a good thing because you can always get... Go for an avocado.Stephanie:Yes. Yeah, I agree. So before we dive into Avocados From Mexico, I was hoping you could touch on your background a bit. I saw that you moved from Venezuela to Dallas in 2001 and I thought that would be a fun point to jump off on hearing a bit about what inspired that move and what brought you here.Ivonne:Yeah. I mean, if you think about it now, that was a long, long time ago. I came and my first job here actually in Dallas, I have been here for over 20 years or 20 years this year actually. And I oversaw over 20 countries, the campaign of or the advertising for American Airlines across 20 countries in Latin America. And I was there for a long time, I think relatively I was there for about five years before I went to the resource group in Dallas and then I started going from agency to brands and brands to agency.Ivonne:I like both sides of the business until a point where I made a decision and I really liked to stay on the brand side. So I stayed there and right now I have been with Avocados From Mexico for seven years now.Stephanie:Wow.Ivonne:And counting. Yeah.Stephanie:That's amazing. So what pulled you to Avocados From Mexico? Because when you look at your background and what you just went through, it seems like such an interesting jump and what was the draw there?Ivonne:It is interesting. That's a great story. My career is full of stories but this one is one of my favorite ones because I have... I was also on the brand side with American Airlines after managing their account on the agency side, I went to the brand then Haggar company, Haggar Clothing then for a while I even go on my... I went on my own. I was very curious about entrepreneurship and just implementing my own ideas. It went great. It was on the fashion side, it went great, but I really missed the security and the stability of the corporate world and is when I went back then and went to Haggar Clothing and then Avocados From Mexico. But to your question my point is that fresh produce was nowhere in my experience or in my career.Ivonne:I was in transportation, telecommunications, fashion, apparel, retail, never even like the minimal experience in the fresh produce category and then the recruiter of Avocados From Mexico contacted me because they were studying the company actually, which is the marketing arm of two organizations, the growers and exporters of Avocados From Mexico in Mexico and the importers and the Packers and distributors of Avocados From Mexico... Hass avocado in the United States, they came together and created a marketing arm to market their products, avocados coming from Mexico. So at that point they appointed the president who is my boss, Alvaro Luque and he has been there from the beginning 2014, 13, and the recruiter contacted me and asked me if I was interested in going and speaking with them, with Alvaro and I was like, "What? What am I going to do with avocados?"Ivonne:I mean, I have... And that was before the first Super Bowl so I didn't even know that brand existed or anything. And she said, "Just go and talk to him and if you're not interested then fine, but I think that you would like it because it's a very entrepreneurial organization, is a very forward thinking and he is looking to really make an impact in the marketing industry." So that got me curious and I went and talked to him and yes I was fascinated with his vision. He told me the magic words. He say, "I want someone who... I'm looking for someone to build the digital marketing department from the ground up." And when I told him like, "Why me? I don't have any experience in the category."Ivonne:He told me that he was not looking for someone with the experience but he was looking for someone with very good solid expertise in the digital marketing side of the business who was very creative and who would be able to do what nobody else has done. And those are my magic words. I'm very creative. I love creative freedom and do exactly that, what nobody else has done. And besides is one of the very, very few cases in marketing where the marketing budget increases year over year because it's proportional to the sales volume and the sales volume of avocados have been growing year after year... Year over year since 2007 and especially since 2013. So I was sold.Stephanie:That's great. Yeah. I mean, such a good story and it's so interesting too when I think about other produce items in a grocery store, you would never even think like, "This avocado bag has a whole content strategy behind it." And they do Super Bowl commercials and like the stuff that you guys are doing to me seems so innovative. You're taking all the risks, you're trying things but what did it look like before you joined? How were they marketing and selling avocados? What was the landscape before maybe they entered the digital world?Ivonne:So when I started there, that was 2014, there was no digital marketing department per se. I mean, we were doing... We had a social media and we had a Facebook page and we have a few bloggers creating content, but I think that was about it. And then I started in September and my first assignment was okay now you have to build up Super Bowl digital campaign. And I was[crosstalk 00:08:43] okay. Yeah, whatever that means, right? But what has been very exciting about it is that we were talking offline before there was no preconceived notion of how a marketing practice should be. And that was... I think that is what has allowed us to do everything that we have done because nobody has ever say, "No, that's not the way we do things here." There was nothing.Ivonne:So we start creating, at least I can speak for my department that I started creating the marketing department that I thought and I think right now that is the right for these time. And one of the things that a lot of companies do is to become complacent and keep doing things the way they have been doing it for years without even realizing they are doing them. In our case, there was nothing. So it was a blank slate for us to build whatever our imagination can see. And like I was saying, my first assignment was... Was in September, I started in September, right? Super Bowl is next February and building a campaign, you can not build a campaign in just two weeks. So what's literally my first assignment is now you have to build a Super Bowl campaign. And it was the first time we went to the Super Bowl with a TV spot.Ivonne:So I did what I thought that it was best and not knowing or having an experience of what even means to be a winning Super Bowl campaign, right? I just did... Put a lot of love and passion into that but the best I could. And then I remembered that the very next day after the Super Bowl I had a call from one of my agencies and says, "Congratulation for the digital campaign." And I said, "Why? What for? What happened?" They say, "It was number two after Procter & Gamble."Stephanie:Wow.Ivonne:I said, "What does that mean?" And then it was in terms of the most social interactions, the campaign with the bigger bus after Procter & Gamble, imagine that. And that was the first year. After that we launched six more and every single year we were either the top one digital campaign or top two digital campaign. Of course now I knew, "Okay, somebody is measuring this. We're very competitive." So and then we purposefully look for that first and second place but the first year happened just spontaneously. We didn't even try.Stephanie:I mean, I want to dive more into that because I just watched your Super Bowl commercial from 2020 and it was so funny about what your avocado needs. It needs a helmet, it needs a baby carrier for it so it gets more skin to skin contact. I mean, it was really good, writing and super funny, which I feel like sometimes I don't always laugh at things. It actually was giving me a good belly laugh and I want to hear how you go about developing content in a way that you did especially with your Super Bowl commercials that are winning awards and coming in number two, how do you guys even start creating that campaign from scratch to make it connect with a lot of people?Ivonne:Yeah. You know that... I will say the most challenging thing about the Super Bowl is connecting that content across the different departments and disciplines because the concept of the TV spot comes from the brand team and the brand agency. So and I have my team and different agencies. We're like I mentioned before, we're very entrepreneurial organization. So pretty much every lead of every department gets to choose their advertising partners, whomever you feel more comfortable working with for whatever reason based on expertise or closeness or whatever it is. So then we have to... When the brand team define what is going to be our theme and they go to market to test three or four options and then they decide this is the commercial we're going out with. Then they give that to the digital team, to my team and I share it with my agency and we start concepting the digital campaign. And the digital campaign have to be able to stand alone and live on its own, stand up on its own but it has to have some connecting tissue with the TV spot. It has to look like the same story.Ivonne:But that is a huge challenge because how can you bring a story that in TV is 30 seconds and transform that in an experience that it has to keep users engaged for three weeks, because that's the time when we launch the digital campaign until the game day is about two, three weeks. So it's a big challenge. And we have... We develop all the experiences in digital with that connecting tissue in mind but created for digital audience is not only for them to watch, but for them to experience, to play with it, to interact with it, et cetera.Stephanie:Yes. How do you think about building out a call to action that gets people to go back to your website? Because oftentimes I watched these Super Bowl commercials and I definitely have more brand love towards the brands that make really good engaging or funny content. But I don't know if I've always felt drawn to go right over to the website. How do you think about making it a funnel that's actually going to convert and pull people into your avocado community?Ivonne:Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to tell you the story, I tell you I have many stories about the Super Bowl but let me tell you one that will illustrate a great, great example. Years ago, we also had a float in the Thanksgiving Macy's Parade and it was the same dynamic. The brand team who also manages PR has this project or this idea to go do the Thanksgiving Macy's Parade with a float. So we had a float then the CEO comes to my team and say, "Hey, we're doing this in brand so what you guys have to do is to create a digital campaign to go with this float in Macy's Thanksgiving Day, but it's going to launch three weeks before then we start concepting." So what we did is how we can do so users keep coming back after three weeks, every day, right?Ivonne:Because you want them to go come every day and participate every day and interact every day. So what we did is that we develop an interactive map and the story was that we're bringing the float from Michoacan, Mexico from where our avocados come from all the way to New York and you will see how... Stopping in key cities across the United States from Mexico all the way to New York city. So in each city we have videos, we had what are we doing in that video, in that city, et cetera, et cetera. But the key was that the only way the float can move is when users tweet or hashtag. So the more they tweet the faster the float goes to New York and we know that we have to be in New York by a certain day.Stephanie:Wow.Ivonne:So that was so exciting. I mean, users were so excited about it that the day of the parade, when we were monitoring the conversation online and you could see the excitement and users saying, "That's my float." And that was the most rewarding feeling because they felt that was their float because they brought it from Mexico. And just to wrap up the story, we deliver more impressions of, or campaign than the Macy's Parade hashtag, imagine that and-Stephanie:That's impressive and crazy.Ivonne:Yeah. I mean, we're just... Have the power of engaging the audiences, they work on your behalf and because we don't have the dollars that the multi-billion dollar brands have to compete in this type of competition if you call it, like the Super Bowl, for example. But we still have been top one and top two in terms of the most talked about brands and it's because we engage the users and they do it for us.Stephanie:I mean, that's why when I was digging into this Avocados From Mexico company, it was so exciting because at first I'm like, "It's a company about avocados." And I started seeing all these things you're doing I'm like, "They are really pushing the limits when it comes to marketing and being super creative of how to pull people into these funnels and get them engaging." And, yeah, it's super impressive. How do you think about the ROI around a Super Bowl commercial versus a float in the parade? What should the ROI look like or what should companies be going after when thinking about these really big moonshot level marketing campaigns.Ivonne:So every company is different and every company has different goals, right? But we don't manage or sales, we're a marketing organization but our job as a marketing organization we have two objectives that which is, build the brand Avocados From Mexico in the US and increase the demand of Avocados From Mexico in the US. So when we create these campaigns that has an enormous boss what we want to do is to put avocados top of mind. When you have, and I give you the examples of Super Bowl campaigns, when you have, for example 7 billion impressions that was a Super Bowl this year, 7 billion potential impressions on social media. Yes. I mean, you can tell the consumer heard about Avocados From Mexico a whole lot. So when they go to the grocery store, you're top of mind and and our conversation of course is very strategic.Ivonne:So we wrap our conversation around a fun story but really in the core of it, there's recipes, there's conversations about how to consume the avocado. In Super Bowl, for example, we say guacamole, we talk a lot about guacamole and Super Bowl. There's a research company called YouGov, the previous two years they did a survey one month after the Super Bowl and they publish their results and they say the winning brands one month after the Super Bowl. And Avocados From Mexico also is among the top one or top two in terms of purchasing tension increase even a month after the Super Bowl. So, and another thing is when you go and see... We're talking about billions of impressions in social media, right? And then you may think, "So what is even an impression? Who cares?"Ivonne:But it is important because that huge conversation that happen in social media is just a reflection of users engage talking about it. And when we go to, for example, and check the Google trends, how the searches for Avocados From Mexico, the brand, the brand name, the search for the brand name the peaks overlap. When our conversation on social media is very, very high, you also see those peaks of Avocados From Mexico, the brand name search is very, very high at the same time. So, yes, I mean, all this huge conversation that we create with campaigns like Super Bowl, Cinco de Mayo and Thanksgiving Macy's Parade, it really impacts the interest for the brand. So going back to our objectives which is build the Avocados From Mexico brand in the US check and increasing the demand of Avocados From Mexico in the US check, because we have seen also how these YouGov for example, is one of the companies that have shown the increase in purchase intention.Stephanie:Yes. Yeah. That's amazing. So, I mean, thinking about all these marketing campaigns that you've done, what is one of the more risky ones that you've done that actually ended up working where maybe people on your team were like, "It's not going to pay off."Ivonne:Yeah. One thing that I always start thinking even a year before the next Super Bowl is what kind of technology I'm going to integrate in the activation. I think that we live in a world that is dominated and I say this in a very positive way, I believe in technology as a positive force to move the industry forward. So, and there's new technologies every year and I see the technology not as a shiny object, at least not all of them but as a... Like I says, is what is moving the world forward and the marketing industry forward. So I start thinking about what technology I'm going to bring the next year. So last year and it was actually that campaign that you referred at the beginning, I wanted to bring the Vatoms that actually right now are super, super popular right now.Stephanie:What are they?Ivonne:NFT or they call it also NFT. Have you heard about NFT?Stephanie:I mean, I've heard of NFT is in the non-fungible tokens-Ivonne:Yes[crosstalk 00:24:25]Stephanie:Okay. Okay.Ivonne:Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.Stephanie:Al right.Ivonne:So then those are super, super popular right now in 2020. 2020, the other name is Vatoms.Stephanie:Okay.Ivonne:In 2020, we actually were the first... One of the first brands that use that as a marketing tactic and we were the first brand to put one of four advertising assets in the blockchain and that was even before everybody[inaudible 00:24:59]Stephanie:Wow. That's so early. You guys are ahead of every trend, basically.Ivonne:Yeah. I mean-Stephanie:Have you done AR already. I was thinking you have to probably have an Augmented Reality experience with your avocado. You guys have done everything.Ivonne:We did, actually was part of that same strategy. So what happened is last year I say, "Well, I want to do something with NFT, let's call it NFT even though we call it Vatoms last year, but NFT and we did, but what it makes so challenging to be early adopter or a trail blazer that you're bringing something that it hasn't been done before is that it's really, really hard to explain and sell the idea within the organization is like we're putting money towards these, we're allocating budget toward these and it's something nobody has done before is that going to work. And honestly, the answer is, I don't know. I mean, how can you know? You don't know if it's going to work but what we do is when we experiment with that kind of things, we experiment cheap as much as we can and we are really well prepared to pivot if we need it.Ivonne:So my agencies, and when I select my agency partners, it has to be someone that is extremely fast moving that or adaptable and can choose with a call cheap directions because if not, it wouldn't work for the type of approaches that we take. And when you can move that fast and when you have partners that can move that fast, the risk is minimal because we're in... I mean, in the digital space you can course correct in real time and you're going to be fine. The problem is when you don't have the right partner that can move that fast and you know that the campaign is failing or there's room for improvement or it needs to be optimized and you cannot react quickly. But it was a big success in terms of the, it created a lot of buzz and a lot of... Media talk about it and a lot of consumers came and visited our site and participate in our games too because of that.Stephanie:Yeah. That's amazing. So tell me a bit more about the NFT strategy. I mean, I understand the concept of them putting on the blockchain a scarcity thing, limited quantity but what were you actually putting on the blockchain? And are you going to do it again in 2021 now that more people understand the concept of it because of the NBA top shot stuff that really put it on the radar of a lot of people who maybe wouldn't have known about it before?Ivonne:Yeah. So what we did is a mix between Augmented Reality, actually it started... The idea started with Augmented Reality so users will sign up to get at the UTA wallet and then they will go to Google Walmart, for example, and then they will find avocados, digital avocados all over and they will capture the digital avocados with their mentor reality and save them to their data wallet-Stephanie:Like a Pokemon Go kind of game.Ivonne:Kind of. Yes.Stephanie:Okay.Ivonne:Exactly. Exactly like that. So they will call it the avocados and then exchange it for every avocado that they collect is a point. So it was part of a big game. So, but when one of those was a crown that you also saw in the TV spot and that crown also, we place it in the... To develop these kinds of objects, it requires special coding so we coded and somebody... And then users will participate to win it and the winner, we will send them the instructions and it was an object that could be placed in the blockchain and they could then sell it or collect it or save it for later or whatever they wanted to do. So it was like testing the waters without going all in but we want to do one. I think that's one of our goals as a company is just, if anything is going to be tested out there in marketing, in the fresh produce industry, we want to lead that.Ivonne:And of course we saw this is coming at some point. In fact, it came a year later but we know this is coming, this is common in marketing so we have to do this. So we did that the previous year, just to name another technology, we built an experience with IBM Watson, the artificial intelligence and that's another great story because it was such a creative implementation of Watson that even IBM contacted me and to her, "How do you guys do this? Tell me the story," and whatever. And then they send an email to all their subscribers using our campaign as a case story like, look how creative Avocados From Mexico is using Watson in a marketing campaign, because it was a totally unexpected application of what so now artificial intelligence tool.Stephanie:Wow. I mean, you're basically giving you a peek into the future, just thinking I want to know what you're thinking at all times, because you probably are thinking two or three years ahead of what other brands when it comes to a marketing and technology perspective are even thinking about right now. So what are you focused on over the next year or two? What are you guys betting on that maybe other people would look at, you'd be like, "Ivonne, that's definitely not going to play out. No one's interested in that." What are you guys shooting for right now or focused on building from a marketing campaign perspective.Ivonne:Yeah. So two things I want to say about that. First, let me tell you, we're in the middle of planning 2020, 2022 planning our fiscal year ends in June and it starts in July, so we're right now are planning processes in full swing. So any ordering process is six months. So in one of the first meeting, the opening meeting where I get to talk to my team before they start even thinking about what are we going to do for next year? I wanted to make very clear where has to be our focus and I told them and something that is... I think is served as a guide, when we look at the future, we need to see what are those forces moving us toward the future. Instead of looking at what is trending because I wanted them to differentiate what are the trends and what are the forces. The trends are now and they may fade, but the forces are what is going to build the future. In this case right now where we are, I will say the forces are definitely artificial intelligence, machine learning, data, 5G is going to change the way we consume content and the way we consume video.Ivonne:The trends, for example, on the other side are I will put gaming in that side is trending right now. I will put in home fitness, I will put... It's a trend, it may be permanent but it's not something so transformational as it is artificial intelligence, data and machine learning. So what are we focusing in the future? We choose to launch a platform called Avocado Nation, is an intelligent platform with artificial intelligence and machine learning engine at the core of it. We call it the next fix of avocados because it has the same intelligence power, obviously much smaller than Netflix but it was... The inspiration was the way Netflix deliver personalized content to their consumers. And as most of the content production companies, they have like 30% success rates in the shows that they put out there. I believe that the last number that I saw for Netflix is like 70% and it's because they really, really relied on that intelligence.Ivonne:So inspired with that, we say we want to create the Netflix of avocados and that's just one of the portions of this intelligent platform. And we have right now over 100 videos our goal is to get 2,000 videos eventually. And it's videos like any format, short videos, long videos, funny, serious of videos that it could be... It could go from a dating show to a recipe show, all kinds of videos to give the consumers a variety of content for them to interact with and in the meantime, the machine is learning from those interactions and helping us to make predictions in the future about what is the content that our first party data is more engaged with.Stephanie:Yes. Yes. I was just going to say the first party data access is probably... Is that big driving force behind creating an entire platform like this.Ivonne:Big driving. Actually, that was the purpose because with all third party cookies going away and all that, we have been working on that for several years now. And right now we have over 100 million users on our consumer data platform and we have a costume audience, that's our core audience, about 30 million consumers. So we already have... Again, we have been preparing for this since 2015 talking about looking toward the future and when all this happened and a lot of brands are scrambling to get ready quickly, we already have our audience. You never complete with... I'm the one building my audience. That's something that the machine keeps learning, the algorithm keeps learning but we're in a very, very good shape in terms of first party data.Stephanie:Yes. I think it's interesting too that you approach the platform in a way like an AI first focused way where I talk to and hear from a lot of brands and many of them are very focused on content, creating their own series and figuring out how to make that work for the company. But it's very interesting hearing that you're essentially approaching it like a Netflix style model and even thinking back to... I don't know if you remember the earlier Netflix days where when they started coming out with their own originals and people were like, "They're not good." It's like the whole time they were just using that as training data, they were learning what we like. They were learning what makes for a good series, what kind of format are people looking for? And I love how you guys are approaching your platform with that as a focus first instead of trying to figure it out afterwards and figure out, "Why aren't people interacting? Why aren't they loving this series?" Super smart.Ivonne:Yeah, exactly. And you know what? I have my agency, I have several agency partners but I have one that is over all the development and optimization of the website, et cetera. And I told them, "This is an ongoing project, is going to be always an ongoing project because... And I want to iterate every single week because the algorithms are learning. And as we learned about how users are interacting, there's always going to be something to optimize and change and improve the user experience and the user journey. So it's a mind shift because you are iterating and calling it changing, tweaking, it doesn't mean that the platform need is broken, it means that there's always, always, always the consumer behavior is changing and if you forget about that and just launch something and leave it, is going to be outdated next month. So you have to change as your consumer expectations and preferences change all the time, it never stops.Stephanie:Yes. How do you want... I mean, when thinking about your employee base, it sounds like they're working on a ton. You can be working on Super Bowl commercials, you can be working on day to day, like traffic generation. You can be working on an entire content platform where maybe you're trying to bring on new musicians and getting new series created. How do you instill a sense of creativity and an entrepreneurial spirit in them so that they're willing to jump around and work on all these things?Ivonne:It's just a lot of fun. I mean, I think that is... I work with seven agency partners because I think we do so much and every one of them has a specialization in one of the digital... The areas of digital and all of them I think say that Avocados From Mexico is their most fun account. And is one, because it's a fun brand but also because also they have a lot of creative freedom. I really value creative idea that is also strategic. We're very, very strategic. And as long as it ties to the strategy, the sky is the limit, their imagination is their limit. And then we really have fun bringing these crazy ideas. And we do so much that is impossible for one person to bring all the good idea. So everybody has the opportunity to participate and to lead and manage their own projects and they work also very collaborated between all of them and all the agencies, it feels like one big agency working together but it's really different partners.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Ivonne:And it's all about ownership, when people feel the ownership of a project it's amazing what they can do.Stephanie:Yeah. That's awesome. So do you have any advice around working with agencies? Because we've heard from quite a few people that a lot of them have worked with agencies, they didn't have good experiences they ended up the creative and the branding and marketing campaigns back in house. And so how do you go about making sure that you're setting up a great partnership and finding these agencies like these that you speak so highly of?Ivonne:I believe that the agency choice is such a personal choice. Let me explain, the person that is... Or the company culture, the culture of the team, this agency is going to work with internally, the decision maker within the organization has to be a perfect match with the agency. And with that, I want to say, there's not a perfect agency for every... There's not a one pit soul. And I'm not talking about, there's great, great agencies that may not be a good fit for certain people or certain companies. In my case and in the case of Avocados From Mexico, just because we have the freedom to slate the partners we want to work with, they are a perfect match. And I think that makes a difference.Ivonne:So what is my criteria, is that they have to be a very, very creative agency, which of course, any agency should be, but it's a different kind of creativity. They have to move fast, they have to be nimble, they have to be a non-conformance. They have to be... There's so many things that it wouldn't work for us if it wouldn't be that way. And I think that every... That freedom that we have to select our partners should be... Any company should have it because it's like selecting a life partner or selecting a business partner is someone you really, really have to compliment each other and fit perfectly.Stephanie:Yeah. Really, really good advice. All right. Let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready to Ivonne?Ivonne:Yes. Stephanie:All right. Hard one first, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Ivonne:Data.Stephanie:All right. Tell me a bit more, what are you thinking around data?Ivonne:Well, data, and I think that companies... Any company, any technology company that has anything to do in that feel of ecommerce is really, really fast right now creating the new best solution. There are things they are working on right now that are going to come out next week or in a month or two months that doesn't exist now. And they are building all that based on data they are capturing now as we speak. So I think that data is going to be the big driver for technology capabilities, for how the technology is and users are going to interact with each other. And there's so much data out there that we are learning right now how to organize it and how to activate it. And that knowledge is what is going to be used to build the next generation of ecommerce tools.Stephanie:Yes. Love it. When you want to get into the creative mindset, what do you do to get into that-Ivonne:I walk.Stephanie:You walk?Ivonne:I walk in nature. It's very unfortunate what happened to the world in this last year. A lot of people... So really sad consequences but I can tell you in my case I think professionally speaking, it was my best year ever. It was my most creative year, my most productive year because I realized that the way I create is by being close to nature and being with my own thoughts and using that reflecting on things that I talk with people in the industry, things that I read but then going back and retrieve and reflect on those things. And I think definitely, I think that everybody should have that space to let their creative power to work on[inaudible 00:46:44]Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. I feel that I also... Yeah, I get very inspired when I'm just out walking and hiking and yeah, I think that's definitely a way to jumpstart that.Ivonne:Yeah. And I like to, I go on a bike, right now that it's getting warmer here in Texas is biking time again and I think my best ideas come when I'm on the bike or when I'm walking, because you don't have interruptions, you don't have a phone ringing, you don't have texts, you don't have anything. So it's you and your thoughts and the brain is an amazing machine that is processing everything that came in at some point and organizing it and making sense of it and coming up with new outputs.Stephanie:Yes. Yeah. You just have to bike on down to Austin, when you get here, we can go on a hike and we'll be super creative and you'll be really in shape so...Ivonne:Awesome.Stephanie:It'd be great.Ivonne:Love to.Stephanie:If you had a podcast what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Ivonne:That's a hard one. I think it will be definitely something related with technology. It will about disruptive technology and new shield solutions. I don't know exactly it doesn't come to my mind what will be my first guest but I think that I would love to interview a woman in technology. I think it's a field where women are being very successful but it was not until recently that they really had a place on the table in that industry. So it would be very interesting to learn how that has been and how it feels to be one of these top technology companies, preferably if she is a founder of a technology company and see how she leaves and interacts in an industry that only until recently became recognizing female as leader.Stephanie:Yes. That sounds like a good one. I would for sure listen to that. Well, Ivonne, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been really fun to get a peek into some of your marketing and digital strategies and yeah, it was just really fun feeling like I had a chance to glimpse into the future with you. Where can people find out more about you and Avocados From Mexico?Ivonne:So we, Avocados From Mexico on Twitter is Avos From Mexico and about me, I have the same in Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn is all Ivonne Kinser, I-V-O-N-N-E K-I-N-E-R.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Ivonne.Ivonne:Thank you.

The online buying experience is always evolving, so it’s table stakes for companies to be on their toes and ready to adjust when the market tells them to. Especially when the company we are chatting about today was founded in 1948! But being prepared to adjust and actually making it happen are two different things. At DICK’S Sporting Goods, its customers, who are referred to as “athletes” are truly running the show, and Scott Casciato, who serves as the VP of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S, is the man who takes their needs and delivers a seamless experience to them via DICK’S ecommerce platform and throughout their 700 retail locations. And with their ecommerce sales increasing by 100% in 2020, Scott and his team have had to rethink many things like: how to scale up operations during peak seasons, why testing every iteration on the website is key, how to perfect the buy online pick up in-store experience, and determine how to take their athlete's feedback and transform it into a funnel for change. This episode brought back a lot of nostalgia for me, thinking about the days of wandering the aisles of Dick’s in my high school days looking for a new lacrosse stick or soccer shoes. So it was fun to hear about how much has changed, and  what investments the company has been making lately in creating the best customer experience possible for its athletes. Also, tune in to the end to hear Scott discuss the importance of great vendor relationships, how to future proof logistics, and the new in-store experiences that Dick’s is betting big on. Enjoy! Main Takeaways:The House Don’t Fall When the Bones are Good: Having a strong foundation is the most impactful thing a company can do to prepare for surges in traffic that might come during peak seasons or after highly-successful campaigns. You have to do the work, go through the load tests and constantly be improving the technology stack because there are no shortcuts when you are creating a scalable platform that can withstand anything you throw at it. With last year being a perfect case study to reflect on, dive into the data and pivot if needed so you’re ready for the surge!Bet On It … Then Test It: Building out an online experience that works requires constant testing. You can plan for outcomes and bet on how you think people will react, but until you test it, you can’t ever be certain. As Scott mentioned, following the path the data reveals can be surprising and sometimes opposite of what your intuition is telling you.Experiences For The Future: The shopping experience is going to continue to change, and the strongest companies are planning for the future by paying attention to trends and then creating experiences — both in-person and online — that will drive engagement with consumers and build trust and confidence in the company’s authority in the space. By investing early into an experience or a specific market, you set yourself up as the expert in that specialized vertical and become the retailer of choice for consumers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is your host, Stephanie Postles, ceo@mission.org. Today on the show we have Scott Casciato, vice president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods. Scott, welcome.Scott:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you. So I have this deep love of DICK'S Sporting Goods because there was a location in my hometown, eastern shore of Maryland, which I feel no one even knows where that is on a map. But back in high school, I would go almost every week and just kind of peruse through the aisles and look for new lacrosse sticks and shoes. And I didn't really have much money, but I remember just loving the experience and being there probably for three hours with friends, just kind of hanging out. So I was so excited when I saw you guys on the lineup where I was, "Yes, something I know well."Scott:Was that your sport growing up, lacrosse?Stephanie:Lacrosse and soccer.Scott:Nice, nice. That's great.Stephanie:Deep love there. So I'd love to hear a bit about how you got into this industry, because you had a funny quote where you said, "I don't know how I really ended up here," and I'd love to start there, how did you become the vice-president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods?Scott:It goes back... I spent the early part of my career in software, supply chain software, and kind of even on the sales side, then moved into the operational side and then got into management consulting and did a tour duty in the management consulting ranks. And I got introduced to the founder and co-founder of a company called ModCloth that I was with previously. And they were looking for somebody to run fulfillment and customer service. And I just said, I don't know anything about, I mean, I know supply chain, but I don't really know anything about direct consumer fulfillment at the time. And the founder of that business was, "Yeah, I know, but you're smart enough to figure it out." Right?Scott:So and I have a bent for really high growth, high speed businesses, and it just kind of the way I grew up in my career and that was a really great opportunity. So I did that and I spent five years there scaling that business really significantly, hyper growth phase and it was awesome. I learned a ton about fulfillment and service. And then about five years in, I had this great opportunity to come to DICK'S. And the thing that was really interesting to me is, the question was how can we build a great service organization for DICK'S Sporting Goods? I'm like, "Wow, if I could do it at a much smaller company, what would it be like to come to such a great brand and try to do it here?" And and we did, right?Scott:And so we spent a lot of time building that for the first four years of my time at DICK'S and then had an opportunity to take fulfillment on. So it's interesting that I have some of the aspects of that, that previous role that I had only, a scale that is much larger and just been very, very fortunate to be with such a great business. And it's been awesome to work with the team at DICK'S.Stephanie:Okay. So you are leaving ModCloth, I mean, that's like strictly ecommerce and then you're coming to this, I would say very omni-channel company. I mean, you have over 700 locations across the US, quickly moving to digital, at least over the past couple of years. Tell me a bit about what that transition was like?Scott:I mean, and at the same time we were really building... We were just starting our transformation to building our own technology. So it was a massive... It was basically rebuilding what we had already had from an ecommerce business perspective. And I think fundamentally a lot of the things that I came in and the tools that I had were relevant, right? How you scale a business. I mean, that stuff is somewhat the same. I think one of the biggest changes was or a few of them were one, just having more teammates that knew a lot of stuff that could really help and drive the initiatives and the progress forward, whereas in a much smaller company, right? It's you're wearing so many different hats and you're doing so many different things here.Scott:It was a shock to me to say, oh, there's somebody that can help with reporting or data analytics and help us with these answers. So that was awesome. And then I just think we were all learning, right? So we were learning what we needed. We were learning what we wanted to be in customer service, we were learning what we wanted to have in terms of digital capabilities. We were learning how to run that business as we were deploying new technology, right? So how do you do pricing online appropriately? I remember a lot of conversation. How do you display things? What's the right... How do you check? What's the right checkout flow? And then we had, as all businesses do, you have to make a lot of trade-offs because it may not be the most elegant thing right at the beginning, but we just got to get it up and running, right?Scott:And so having those conversations can be tough, right? Everybody, and especially our business, we just have this DNA where we just relentlessly improve, right? And so it's tough to launch something and know that it's not the perfect solution, right, and then making sure that you go back and you iterate and you keep going, right? We just did that for a long time. But it was a lot of fun and it's really tiring, but it was a lot of fun.Stephanie:So that's amazing. What was one of the maybe projects or things that you felt most strongly about that you got maybe the most pushback on that people are like, nope, that's not a good idea?Scott:I would say, well, we had a lot of conversation about how we were going to set up, for example, in my world, we were going to set up customer service. And we continue to evolve that. I think it wasn't that people were saying it's not how we want to do it, I think it was really more what I was saying about, we want to own more of that customer service experience, right? So we had always been outsourced. And as we moved, as we did the transition, and our previous outsourcer did a great job. And as we move to the next wave of that evolution, we decided we really need to keep an outsourced view in some form or fashion of customer service, but we really wanted to try to start to build our own, right, because we were, "Wonder what we could do on our own?"Scott:So this conversation about, [inaudible] how do you scale for the hockey stick effect that we have at holiday, right, while maintaining the great experience that we have? And we want to in source, but then we want to scale a holiday. We just had a lot of spirited debate about that. So that was part of that conversation.Stephanie:Very cool. And so are you guys kind of now balanced approach when it comes to customer service, depending on what's incoming and how to route it?Scott:Exactly. Right. So we have a team of internal service people that take various types of contacts, and then we have a few outsourced partners that we work extremely closely with. And we balanced the volume across there. And then at holiday time, we scale up across all. And so it's turned out to be... And we're measuring that experience relentlessly. So it's been a great symbiotic relationship, I think, across all three of those.Stephanie:Well, now that you've touched on holiday, I do kind of want to go into peak season and maybe talking about, I mean, you mentioned that you went through this big technology evolution and implementing new things to try and get to where you are now, what did that look like, especially when it comes to preparing for big surges? I mean, I saw your ecommerce I think went up 100% in 2020 or something, so you guys have had massive growth. What did it look like behind the scenes to prepare for that plus peak demand?Scott:I think it's been this... We're very happy that we started when we did, right? when you think about what happened over the past 12 months and what has happened in the ecommerce world and the growth that everybody has seen, we're fortunate that we started four years ago down this path. Because the foundation that we built really allowed us to scale this year really quickly. We've been through all the load tests dynamics that you go through at holiday, we've built the technology stack that can support the traffic that we knew that we were going to get. We've been through the trials and tribulations of how to test, what to test, where to find the failure modes, and we've got really talented people that work on that stuff every day. We've built controls internally to manage where things might not be working appropriately and to be able to balance that.Scott:And as you think about what happened last year, specifically with curbside, it is the example of, it took us four years to become an overnight success type of situation where [inaudible].Stephanie:[inaudible].Scott:Right.Stephanie:[inaudible]. Who knew?Scott:Totally. So I think it was scaling for holiday. We scale every year for holiday. I think last year was one that we didn't quite know, nobody knew what was really going to happen. But I think we over-prepared, and we executed an extremely successful holiday because we just had every... It was so great to see everybody so engaged in solving that challenge and really thinking through every aspect of what might happen in holiday from fulfillment through the web traffic through customer service. And we really came together as a team and figured out all the ways that things could go right and wrong and covered it all. And we had a great holiday season because of it.Stephanie:That's great. So what areas do you think businesses are maybe under-prepared? Is it in the fulfillment piece? Is it in customer service? What are some of the top pillars that you guys covered down on that maybe some people might not be fully prepared for?Scott:I think that we do a great job in measuring and really paying attention to the athlete experience across all measures, right? I think we've pivoted from, I think historically in most businesses have been in a place where you manage internally, right? You're managing things like conversion or traffic or speed to athlete and things like that, and to be the customer, traditional service levels and customer service. I think those are all important, but I think if you take the outside in view, right, and you're looking at things like how are we measuring the experience, what's happening to that customer when they're out there and they're buying from us? But are they buying from us again, right, as an articulation of their commitment to the brand?Scott:And then how do we influence that purchase behavior? And how do you think expansively about that in terms of not only the shopping experience online that they have, but the post-purchase, the delivery experience, the customer service experience, how are you really measuring that data and getting good information and causal information to figure out how you can drive really great lifetime value? And I think we do that and we're really starting to do that really well across our business. And we've gotten so much support for that outside in view, across our leadership team as well that it's become a real engine of thinking across our teams.Stephanie:I mean, it seems like that holistic view is really hard for a lot of companies to get to though. I mean, I hear about a lot of companies trying to consolidate their tech stack, marketing stack, put it all in one area that things actually are connected and you can have attribution and you can see the LTV. How do you guys think about having that view that allows you to make decisions?Scott:I mean, I think that it's philosophical at some level and don't get me wrong, it's hard because I think when you look at the business on a day-to-day basis, all retailers, right, especially those that are public are driving towards hard goals. We take a much longer term view of things generally across the business, which is really refreshing and great. And so it allows us to really make good decisions. When you think about what we're measuring, how we're investing, we're not investing, I mean, obviously we care about the quarter and we care about the year, right? Don't get me wrong, but I think we're making investments that are in the long-term interest of this brand and our customers. I think, we're a really large small business in that regard. And I think we've been able to energize our teammates to deliver that experience on the front line, but also make the investments on the back end of the house that allow us to do that.Stephanie:And I see you guys have been making some big tech investments. I saw, I think Commerce Hub, you did a multi-year deal with them. And I saw something about the vendor partner program that you have. We can kind of plug and play into a bunch of vendors and have an endless aisle. And I was, wow, that could be game changing to be able to pivot quickly and offer, get to the consumer, right, wherever they are, whatever they need, especially in times right now where it's very uncertain. So it seems tech is a big piece of that, towards that investment philosophy right now.Scott:It is.Stephanie:How are you figuring out what you need and how to put the proper pieces in place?Scott:I think we have over 500 vendors in our drop-ship program. And connecting to it has them, and understanding what the inventory is, and getting them to send us the right inventory, and then order information back and forth in real time is incredibly important, which is why we made the investment in Commerce Hub, it has been a great partner for us for a few years now. And it's easy to use. So I think that's that was great for that aspect of our business. I think our vendor relationships are super strong and we're fortunate that we have them because it allows us to be really creative in the way that we go to market. Scott:And I think we're also continuing to build great brands internally, right? And so if you think about, we just recently launched our first brand and it's been a great success so far. It's great stuff. We had got our [inaudible], if you haven't tried it, you should.Stephanie:I haven't. [inaudible].Scott:That's awesome. It's a partnership that we did with Carrie Underwood about six years ago, and it's quickly become our number two selling women's line.Stephanie:Wow. That's awesome.Scott:And then we launched our DSG brand a few years ago, or a year and a half ago, which is really a value-driven brand and with very high quality, right? So when you think about the continuum of our brands, we have very specific and different strategies and they're complex depending on what we're trying to achieve within a given brand or category within that brand. But I think we're fortunate that we've built such great lasting relationships, because again, I think it gets back to, we take a longer term view of things and we really, I think we treat our vendors as partners.Stephanie:Yep. So key, especially in this industry where so much is happening, so much is changing quick and people can get burned really quickly too.Scott:Right, right, right.Stephanie:It also seems being able to plug into a vendor system like that is important, especially around... It seems a lot of companies are doing private label type of things and launching their own brands. I mean, it's not fully reliant now on the big brands and being able to have that flexibility to pull people into your ecosystem that maybe could have never sold at a DICK'S Sporting Goods before, that seems amazing and really allows access in a way that wasn't here maybe five years ago.Scott:It really does. We're always looking for those bets to make with new and upcoming brands. And our vendor director job channel is a great way to sort of test some of these things. So that's definitely, you hit the nail on the head for us. It's a strategy that we actively have and it's nice because my team who manages that part of our business we'll work with our merchants to say, "What could our strategy be with the supplier or partner X?" Right? Some of these folks are small businesses that can't handle our volumes. So if we buy a little bit more, we can test some of them or we can test it in the vendor direct channel. So it's been a real tool for us.Stephanie:Testing's interesting too. I could see kind of doing AB test quickly and see if people like this product and if they like this one more, okay, here's what we're going to go. Maybe we'll circle back with you next year in a much less risky way to bring people in.Scott:We've gotten really good at testing and specifically on the site with how we're thinking about the experience online. And we test almost everything these days, right? I mean, there's some stuff that I think is just go do things, some go do things that we do. But I think generally speaking, we've really developed a muscle around building an experience and testing it and iterating on it to figure out what's really resonating with the athlete most. So everything from shopping experiences on our site all the way down through the conversion funnel to fulfillment, right? And speed and how we're communicating with our athletes.Scott:So I think we've learned so much, and I'm like constantly reminded when we get these, we all kind of make bets, right, when we launched these tests like what do think's going to happen? And I think I'm wrong so often, it's so important to test.Stephanie:Yep.Scott:Good. Because what you think the consumer is going to do they just don't. And even when you think about surveys, I think there's this everybody lies concept, right? And it's true...Stephanie:And depends on what state they're in or where they're at in the day.Scott:Right, right. So I think it's just so invaluable to us.Stephanie:And we do surveys on the show sometimes just to see who do you want on, and how am I doing? And it's, well, it's depends on probably where that person is, if they're happy, if they're sad, it could be different depending on the place that they're in.Scott:For sure.Stephanie:So what's an example of a test that you ran where you were so sure, you're like this one's going to win, everyone was kind of on board with one scenario winning and then the results come back and everyone's wrong?Scott:That's a good question. We just ran one recently that I did win on, which is the one that was top of mind for me coming into this. Let me talk about that one for a second. So the one we launched on same-day, we're trying to figure out what are our athletes appetite is for same-day services. And we did definitely get a lot of engagement on the test. I kind of thought it was going to be more than it was, but it was still interesting, right? So I think that's something that we're going to continue to have conversation on.Stephanie:They wanted it, the majority of the [inaudible]?Scott:I think they did. It wasn't as much as I would've thought, really.Stephanie:Because that's an interesting one that some people on the show said, people just want to know when it's getting there, they're okay if it's not same day, versus if it's more of a commodity product, you better get it to them the same day. And to kind of seems it depends what it is and how much delayed gratification someone can have on it, it depends, it seems.Scott:Yeah. Some of the tests that I think that we've run that have been less intuitive, I just think how products are set up on the site and how people search, right, and find products like you would think that sometimes when you put the best or most visible sort of notable product of the top search results, that's going to create a better conversion and sometimes it just doesn't, right? So it's really people come in I think with a lot of intent around how they're shopping and sometimes what you think is going to happen just doesn't because I think there's so many different ways that people shop.Stephanie:Yep. How do you think about shifting the website either, from what you learned from last year or when you're approaching peak season, are there certain key elements that you adjust knowing that maybe the consumer's are in a very different mindset than they were at any other time in history probably?Scott:Yeah. I think I can speak more to the way that we think about fulfillment in this regard. I always, I historically had thought, that's another example of what I thought was going to happen. I historically thought that during, for example, Black Friday weekend speed was really important, right? I need it, I want to get it fast. And it turns out that weekend in particular speed is not the most important, getting what you want is the most important, right? So getting the deal is the most important. I think it makes sense because most people are thinking, I've got three or four weeks that this thing can get to me. I'm not super concerned to get it next week, just to make sure that I get it, right?Scott:So that's one that we adjust in terms of making sure that we're really being honest with how we're going to fulfill. Thankfully we've got an extraordinarily resilient fulfillment network and we do really well in speed and but historically had been surprised as we've really measured that one over Black Friday weekend. It's really about getting the deal, not the speed.Stephanie:Versus Christmas when everyone's probably last minute shopping, it's probably opposite.Scott:Very different.Stephanie:Okay.Scott:Very different. And as you get into December and you get through towards the ground cutoffs and you get, depending on what's happening, the speed becomes a real issue. Last year was was nuts. I mean, FedEx was running commercials, right? They talked about the speed or buy early. And we definitely saw a little bit of a shift in terms of how people were thinking about buying.Stephanie:So how are you building up that resilience fulfillment network that you mentioned to be able to basically say I can offer anyone the endless aisle, we have unlimited of these, in one moment and then be, okay, now next month got to go, got to be there in three days or less type of scenario?Scott:I think you mentioned it when we kicked off the show, it was we've got over 700 fulfillment locations when you think about our store network, which is a blessing for us because it allows us to really, not only be closer to our athlete and get things there faster, but also allows for a lot of flexibility when... It's just load balancing, right? When you think about a business that has a couple of three, in my past one fulfillment center, when that thing gets backed up, or you have a labor problem or you have whatever the case, would be trucks that don't show up on the receiving dock or the outgoing dock, you're kind of backed up, right?.Scott:And so while that definitely happens across everybody's network, including ours, having all of these different nodes that are moving product out each and every really helps mitigate the risk. And so it also helps us, at peak time, it helps us staff up and get stuff out. And we have we've built a really sophisticated way to manage the way that orders are routing. So we're able to identify where we might have congestion points, for example, and try to proactively avoid those as we see those things happening, right? So we can move orders to one node or another, or block a node if we've got a weather issue or something, or we've got, in the fall when you have hurricanes in Florida, right, or in the Southeast, we're able to really change the way that our orders route to get product out of different places that aren't having those issues.Stephanie:And is that kind of done in the background where it's looking at all these different inputs and then kind of making decisions that you can come in and adjust if you need to, but it's already routing it for you in the background?Scott:Yeah. So part of it's automated part of it's people, right? And it's still a lot of people, right, washing the switches each day. But we've got a great team of people that are communicating, we're communicating out of our stores to my team and fulfillment. We're communicating from my team into stores and we're using the technology that we've built to really manage the capacity and the inventory across the entire network.Stephanie:It seems that is so important too you when you essentially have two business units when it comes to fulfillment, you've got your store locations with one set of data, inventory is probably very hard to track because it's always getting grabbed, it's always getting shipped out, and then you have just maybe a fulfilment center that's a whole different beast probably. How do you get to that consolidate view? Is that part of the backend tech that's kind of looking at it at a higher level, treating it all as one?Scott:It is and it's definitely complex for the reasons that you noted. And it creates, sometimes it can compromise how close we can get to the athlete if we think we've got a unit in Austin, Texas and we actually don't. The fortunate part is instead of canceling that order on you or that unit on you, it's going to go to maybe it'll go to a Dallas store, right? And we can still stay pretty close to you and get it to you. And we're also trying to look at things like, how do we keep packages together? Of course, anybody that's listening to this that manages freight will say, yep, really important from a cost perspective. And frankly, even from, as I mentioned earlier, that athlete experience, people want to get one box, right? I don't want to order three or four different things and get three or four different boxes. And sometimes that's unavoidable, but we're trying everything we can to not let that happen.Stephanie:Oh, blessing.Scott:Totally, right?Stephanie:I get, one company I'm not going to mention their name, they will send a can of soup, anything a bone broth. I mean, it's in these little bags and they just come one at a time. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I just would have rather just gone to the store and picked it up myself than getting random of one item at a time."Scott:It's so wonderful when the customer experience need and the business need align, right? So when you think about, nobody wants to ship more packages to you, right? We want to get it to you, we want to get to you fast and we want to get it to you in one package. And that's also a great experience for you. It's the same thing we talk about with customer service, which is a traditional metric that people manage as average handle time, right? How long are [inaudible]? And I'm so careful, we collectively are so careful with this metric because it can be so disastrous to the teammate that's on the other end of the phone if they think they're being managed to a handle time, right? I don't want to just get you off the phone, however, and you need to use it for all kinds of different scheduling and making sure you have enough people on the team.Scott:But what's really aligned is generally people want to get to an answer pretty quickly also, right? I want to have an efficient, valuable use of my time. I want to get to an answer and then I want to move on with my day. So that's another example of where if we can do it right and align those desires, we're going to create an awesome experience.Stephanie:The unintended consequences, pizzas is such a tricky thing with thinking about designing roles and KPIs. I mean, I'm doing it right now. I'm thinking about sales and building a sales team and being like, oh wait, this might incentivize bad behavior.Scott:You got to really think about it, right?Stephanie:You just think really strategically about it.Scott:The outcome or the impact is very different than the intent in some cases.Stephanie:Yep. Are there any external inputs right now that you think companies aren't preparing for? I'm thinking about the algorithms that are kind of running everything behind the scenes when it comes to your fulfillment and things like that. Is there anything that you guys are watching now that maybe you weren't watching a couple of years ago and letting it help influence how things are routed or how things are kind of being redirected, anything like that?Scott:I mean, I think we're constantly trying to get to be more precise, and we're very fortunate that if everything goes right, we can get you an order really, really quickly. So we're really trying to pay attention to, where are things not going perfectly and we've called this thing the perfect order, what's our perfect order, right? And how do we get more of those? So we're spending a lot of time thinking about how we can perfect our fulfillment network. And I mean, it is, as you can imagine, just an infinite number of variables that dictate how this thing goes. But we're working a lot on that. I do not think that...Stephanie:[inaudible] like local stuff, because that's something that kind of came to mind. You're paying attention to weather and higher level things are you down in the weeds of, okay, well there's a festival this week here so that means... Is it that [inaudible].Scott:It can be. I mean, for example, when we're doing a hot market event, so Super Bowl, NCAA Tournament, they're national events, but their inventories largely local, right? So we're really paying attention to what the traffic is doing and the inventory is doing it at those local levels for sure.Stephanie:I'd love to talk about events a bit because I know that's a focus is the athlete experience online and in person as well. And I saw that you guys are opening more retail locations. You're opening, I think I saw a golf center, I soccer center, I mean, these full on experiences. And I'd love to hear how you guys are thinking about that.Scott:I'm glad you mentioned that we're really proud. We just opened recently the House of Sport up in Victor, New York, which is an expression of what we think the future can be for DICK'S Sporting Goods. And it's really an experiential retail location. So you can go in there, obviously we've got golf simulators and we've got fitting in there. We've got rock walls to climb. We've got an outdoor fitness field where we're doing things and we're engaging the community in different ways. So we're running clinics and figuring out how we can get local teams into their... Engaging in the community in this way has been a part of our brand since 1948, right? So I think, if you read the story of DICK'S and how we were involved in the Binghamton New York community, when the business was founded, it'll give you a sense for why this is important to us.Scott:And we just believe that, we say it all the time, we believe that sports makes people better. So how do we think about engaging in the community where we're at? We've done this forever in community marketing, and you see how we donate equipment to local teams and so forth. This is kind of another evolution of that, where we think we can make a big impact, we can change the way that people think about retail. And I think it'll quickly get to how do we merge the online and the brick and mortar or traditional retail experience? So I think that's a place that is really exciting to us right now.Stephanie:I was just thinking about, how do you create, you have a view where you know this person came in to this event and they were using the golf simulator, and they really liked this club. And then they either bought in store or maybe four weeks later they ended up online and bought the one that they were using? Do you feel you're moving in a direction where you're going to have that viewpoint? And it's not a hard time to get there.Scott:Yeah, I think we're getting there. I think we're really focused on data and analytics, right? And so I think our ability to stitch together these experiences, we're building that muscle. I don't think that we're totally there yet, but we've got really smart people that are thinking about this. And I think we're moving in that direction because that's the key. We're not really worried about what channel you buy in, right? I think it's more about, are we the retailer of choice for you, right? And however that experience, the experience that we can build for that, it's important to measure it because then I think it unlocks the investment in the targeted areas that are going to drive more of that for our athletes. So I think that's where we're really focused.Stephanie:Have you thought about creating essentially kind of a guide shop, but you have the soccer experience or something, and then just a small shop where maybe you can look at a few other things, but then essentially you're going back online to order whatever you played with and got to experiment with, or are you doing full on retail location as always, and then often this area we're doing our experience center?Scott:We haven't done really pop up experiences, guide shop experiences like that. We're moving more towards, how do we create a more scaled experiential experience in store and then how do we measure that in terms of who might go online to buy.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love that. I'm excited to see... I need to visit one of those stores, especially the soccer one. I mean, I don't know what it's going to be happening there, but I want to be there.Stephanie:I want to hear, which I feel you'll have a great answer for is what are you all most excited about right now over the next one to two years? What are you most passionate about?Scott:We're excited about a lot of things. And as usual, we have a very full plate. So I think things that we've already deployed that we'll continue to refine, things like our curbside program or a buy and pickup in store program for online, we're really excited about that. That's got a long runway of improvement, enhancement, and creativity that's going to be placed into that program. We are really excited about this merger of... I'm really excited about the merger of stores and online specifically around becoming a trusted advisor to our athletes. So if you think about the breadth of the teammates that we have, and when you walk into our stores or you talk to our people online, everybody's got a passion, right? Your passion is lacrosse and soccer.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:How do we think about unlocking that potential, right, in terms of then being able to help our customer, whether that customer is buying first player pair of soccer cleats for their son, to getting ready to play club soccer, to getting ready to go off and play soccer at a D1 level or beyond, right? So how do we look at that continuum of expertise and really become that trusted advisor, both online and in our stores? And I think that is incredibly exciting venture. And we do it well today. I think there's an opportunity to do it even better. So we're really excited about that. We're really excited about the assortment, right, that we're going to continue to launch online. I think it's going to be differentiated. I think it's going to keep our position in the market really strong.Scott:So I think the product that we put in there, the expertise that we put in there is going to be differentiated in the market, right? And that I think is probably more incremental and more incremental expression to the core business. And then we're going to continue to press. Game Changer has been a great business for us for years. And that team is great. And they continue to build a technology that service the baseball market. But we're always looking for different ways that we can expand or innovate across the industry.Stephanie:I love that, you know what? We need like, what do you do after college? I always think about that and I'm like, I loved playing sports. But then you start working, and then you have kids, and then you're, I still want to play, but how do I get back into it? And something is missing there, Scott. [inaudible].Scott:No, but I love... So that's who we want. That's another sort of persona that we really want to love to serve in our stores. Because I'm one of them.Stephanie:I'm your person.Scott:Right.Stephanie:We're the people.Scott:We're the people. And I think what we want to be able to do, I love talking about this. I think in our stores and online, our ability to listen and inspire, right, how do we help you meet that goal, right? "Hey, I'm doing a couch to 5k first time. I'm starting to get active." Or, for me, the 5'8 guy that always had a dream of the NBA that never came to fruition because my vertical is about that high. I still play. I want to make sure that I can get all the gear that I need to be competitive, right, or to achieve my personal best.Scott:So I love the fact that we can really positively impact people's lives in that way. And I think we want to make... I would love to make sure personally that anybody that walks into our store and knows that we're not just a sporting goods retailer, right? I think we want to make sure that we're helping, we want to facilitate you achieving your dreams. And then we talk a lot about that internally. So if we can translate or transmit that feeling to our athletes, I think that's really powerful.Stephanie:And also makes me think about creating custom leagues too, where it's, this is a different kind of league. It's not the traditional school. It's not even people creating their own volleyball leagues. It's we are a part of this. We're making sure that this can happen for people who struggle to even find those networks. I mean, I know back when I was in DC, I looked for where's some other women who play lacrosse? I don't really want to play with guys who are going to be checking me and I count find it, super hard to find. I mean, it's easy to find some sports in a community setting, but it's very hard to find people in certain other sports settings.Scott:You're right. There's a social, I don't want to, careful to say social network, but there is this idea of how do I plug into people that are me within a certain geographical area, right? That would be interesting. That's really interesting. Thanks for that one. Let me...Stephanie:Take it back to leadership. We just need a parenting kit. It's, here's everything you need so that we can go play our sports and then your kids are entertained. They get many lacrosse sticks. You go there and then I'll go off on my own so I can actually play, give me the kid.Scott:I love that idea.Stephanie:I want to think like such parents. Anyone who's not a parent is probably, "What are y'all talking about right now?"Scott:What are you talking about? Yep.Stephanie:Yep. All right. So let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Scott:I think so.Stephanie:Okay. So I'm sad, I haven't asked this yet and don't know this, but what is your favorite sport?Scott:Basketball.Stephanie:Oh, nice.Stephanie:And who's your favorite sports team?Scott:It's always been the Chicago Bulls since back in the day, which is probably blasted me because I live in Pittsburgh. So to not say football and the Pittsburgh Steelers is a problem.Stephanie:You'd probably get egged.Scott:Probably. But they're close second.Stephanie:That's good. What is the nicest thing anyone's done for you?Scott:Oh, wow. I'm going to struggle. I'm going to go to my kids. I think my kids being, this is going to sound so cheesy, but it's so serious. The way that my kids treat other people with respect and kindness, I think is the thing that comes to mind for me first. And I know that's probably not the answer that you would normally get.Stephanie:Nope, I like it.Scott:To me that's pretty important. So I'm really proud of them. And I think that's probably the best thing that somebody could do for me.Stephanie:I love that. There's so much you can learn from kids. I think about that all the time. So I'm the person who is here for those cheesy kind of kid answers. You're in the right space. What's one thing you don't know that you wish you understood better?Scott:American history comes to mind?Stephanie:That's a good one.Scott:I don't think that's on topic, but that's the first one that comes to mind.Stephanie:When you want to feel more joy, what do you do?Scott:It's going to sound crazy. I tell people, thank you.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:Right. So I just believe that there's a lot... I get a lot of energy from being grateful, right? And so that's what I do. If I'm really feeling a little down or if I'm really stressed or some of the times the way that I work out and I get the endorphins mode going, that's one way to do it, and the other way is to be grateful for things. So I feel that's the way I get a lot of energy.Stephanie:I love that. All right. And then the last one, I mean, it seems you guys are very much ahead on a lot of things within the ecosystem. What do you do to stay on top of the trends? Are you watching other companies? Are you reading things, what are you doing to stay on top?Scott:I think it's a combination of experiencing and reading. I don't read nearly enough, it's hard, right? There's so much the content that comes out and not enough time. So I'm trying to just experience things out in the wild right? I'm talking to a lot of people, whether it's parents at a game or if it's just my own experiences online, and I'm trying to translate that to what's happening and why companies would do things a certain way. And then my team is doing the same thing. So I think we're trying to stay close. We're trying to stay close that way and certainly reading and engaging in conversations like this also kind of help.Stephanie:Good. That's awesome. Well, cool. Well, Scott, thank you so much for joining us. It was really fun to hear all about what you guys are up to. Where can people find more about DICK'S Sporting Goods and find you?Scott:I think www.dickssportinggoods.com. For the story of Public Lands and Golf Galaxy, and you can find me at LinkedIn, on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thank you so much.Scott:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great time.

Taking a company from $1 million to $100 million is no easy feat — especially when you have competition and copy cats coming at you from all angles. But Peak Design has fought off all those knock-offs — including a pretty blatant rip-off from AmazonBasics — and it has done it with humor and panache, which has only endeared the company more to its loyal customer base. Those customers are what took Peak Design from a simple camera utility bag company and turned it into a popular everyday bag and accessories outfitter for photography enthusiasts. Peak Design leaned into the idea of having a close relationship with its customers from the very beginning, by letting their customers have a say in their product line by way of crowdfunding and Kickstarter campaigns. And that, according to Elish Patel, the VP of Growth and Digital at Peak Design, has made all the difference. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Elish explains how building that loyal customer base has helped the company stave off the blatant and more subtle competitors. And Elish talks about how Peak Design is using unique marketing and content strategies to take people from browsing to buying. Enjoy this episode! Main Takeaways:It Speaks For Itself: Although Peak Design went toe-to-toe with Amazon after it knocked off a Peak Design product, more often than not, Peak Design lets its products speak for themselves against the competition. If your products are truly superior in quality and the value they offer, consumers will recognize that and make the investment. And when they buy the better product and see its superiority, they become more loyal to that brand long-term.Products Over People?: Hiring good talent is important, but you don’t want to prioritize growing your headcount over maintaining a laser focus on creating a good product. When you scale up your headcount, it’s easy to be distracted by the new focus on managing a large team and therefore your product design and development process can suffer. By relying on third parties and vendors or partners to do work you could otherwise hire internally, you are left with a core team who can focus on the part of your business that is truly important.More Than An Impression: With your marketing and content, the goal should be to achieve more than an impression or a like. Especially with a smaller or niche brand, being a part of the conversation your consumers are having on places like Reddit and TikTok is worth more than getting an influencer to post a picture with one of your products.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome everyone to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Elish, Patel who currently serves as the VP of Digital and Growth Strategy at Peak Design. Elish, welcome.Elish:Thank you. Nice to be here.Stephanie:Yeah. I'm really excited to catch you before you journey into the redwoods to get some content for your company. I was hoping we can just dive right into Peak Design because your story is super fascinating. Right before this, you were talking about how when you came in, it was a sub $1 million company. Now it's at almost 100 million?Elish:We definitely had a positive in that we did somewhere around 70 last year and we're hoping to grow to that the hundred soon. So yeah, we're coming right up against it.Stephanie:Okay. I mean, that's an amazing story. That's why I was like, "We need to start there. I don't want to run out of time." Can you tell me a bit about what is Peak Design and how long have you been there, and a little bit about that journey?Elish:Yeah. I've been with Peak Design for about six and a half years. I met Peter Dering, our founder and CEO in a bar in Berkeley after a concert. We just sort of hit it off. So it was one of those-Stephanie:What concert?Elish:It was an Alt-J concert at the Berkeley Greek. It was one of those classic Silicon Valley chance meetings. I was doing marketing consulting in the Bay Area at the time and he needed a little bit of help on the digital side. A little bit about Peak design. Peter Dering had this idea of a camera accessory basically to hold your camera on the outside of your body, usually on a backpack shop or your belt while you're doing some more strenuous activities, whether you're hiking, biking, stuff like that, so you could get to your camera easily instead of it being tucked inside your bag and you would miss that shot, as we say.Elish:He got lucky, if you will, the universe aligned in that was the early days in 2010 of Kickstarter. He was just going to find someone to make it and try to get it into stores. But someone was like, "Hey, why don't you do a Kickstarter?" Put it on Kickstarter. Some people found it, wrote a story on it. I think it was in Gadget or something like that, and it blew up. He did 300-something thousand dollars on Kickstarter that year. It was something the third biggest Kickstarter. Again, early days of Kickstarter. There's now crazy ones.Elish:That was the birth of Peak Design. From there, it deepened into the Kickstarter and photography product world. We became one of the first companies to do a second Kickstarter. That's how we started just launching products on Kickstarter. What we found with that is Kickstarter just has this base who became our evangelists. We created this really one-on-one relationship with our customers and do have a say in the design of our products. They feel invested in our brand. We continue to do that. In fact, we've done 10 Kickstarters to this point. We've raised over $37 million on the platform, fully crowdfunded, which means we've never taken investors, and we get to make decisions like being a part of 1% for the Planet. We founded a climate neutral nonprofit to help companies to offset their carbon. We basically chart our own path and that allows us also to make the best things. We don't cut corners on any of our products.Stephanie:Yeah, that's amazing. We haven't had too many companies on the show that went the Kickstarter route. I think I can only think of one or two. What were some of the lessons maybe when you launched the first time to the second to the 20th time, that maybe things that you started adjusting over time?Elish:Some of the biggest things we adjusted were... they came with just the changes in the world of marketing, with the rise of social media in the last few campaigns, the influencer became so much more part of our campaign, especially the last two YouTube. There was Facebook, then there was Instagram and then YouTube has been around for a long time. But then we layered on YouTube specific influencers and that's it's whole other own community, especially in the photography world. And then relearning that YouTube in and of itself is a great search engine place where you can put evergreen content. There's one piece of influencer content that I have up on YouTube that I placed two years ago that still brings in five grand a month.Stephanie:Wow. Okay. What's this content?Elish:Well, we sponsored a video for basically someone who... and we were pretty adamant to make sure that if you're going to review our product, then you want to leave a positive review. We're not just forcing you to do that. We give them the product. They love it. They're like, "I love this. I want to talk about it." Usually for the bigger influencers, they're like, "Oh, I love this product. I want to put it up." It usually costs 30 grand. We did that and it got up on YouTube. I don't want to say the name just to blow up his spot or not. But put up there, did a great review of it, talked about the pluses and minuses, linked to the campaign below in the comment. That video, which because it did so well, they keep on their page and still draws traffic when you're... especially the campaign was for our Peak Design tripod, our travel tripod.Elish:When you type into YouTube "tripod" especially who people who are searching for like "how to use a tripod, this and that," it's one of the top things that comes up. People will go watch that video and like, "Oh, this is a cool tripod." They'll click the link and it still brings in a lot of traffic and a lot of revenue.Stephanie:That's really cool. Are you still using Kickstarter today?Elish:We just did our last Kickstarter in December. We did it for our new mobile line of products. We went from photography thinking that this iPhone is literally the best camera that everyone carries around on a daily basis. So we wanted to create a line of products for that. We did that in December and that was our last one. Are we going to continue to do Kickstarters? Probably, but we've done 10 of them and it's got to end someday, maybe. I don't know. We'll see.Stephanie:Why? That's what I'm wondering. I'm like, "Man, it sounds like it's going so well." I haven't heard of enough brands probably utilizing that, but it does feel like maybe that market is pretty saturated and it just seems like there's a lot on there when you go in and start looking through products that are launching and what you can find. It just feels like a lot more than maybe when you guys started out.Elish:Well, it's also, we were a part of this cohort that proved the model and then now it's easier than ever to go and make and design a product in China, Vietnam, wherever you're producing. In fact, there's full factory cities where you show up with an idea and they'll help you make it. That also feeds into the system. It's a problem with knockoffs in our brand as well. People are copying our stuff. You can just go there and that's the other part that saturated Kickstarter and Indiegogo, are these half thought out brandless products. It's easy to get lost in the fray there as well.Stephanie:Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about knockoff that you just mentioned, because right before the interview, I was watching a very fun video that you guys put together because of Amazon knocking off your bag, and I was hoping you can touch on the inspiration behind that and how you think to approach companies who are knocking off your products.Elish:Yeah. It's a funny story, obviously. The backstory is that we make this bag called the Everyday Sling. Literally that's the name. We have a TM on the term everyday sling, and we do sell on Amazon. Before the pandemic, we had a large amount of our direct revenue on Amazon. And the rumors are true that Amazon will see a successful product on their platform and say, "Oh, we can make some money on that and create an Amazon basic version of it." What they did in this case was copy our bags, stitch for stitch, it looks exactly the same, even down to the point a design element is just this little hyper lawn patch where we put our logo. They kept that patch the exact same shape and the exact same location on the bag and wrote Amazon instead of Peak Design on it.Elish:We've seen knockoffs before, but we were like, "This is egregious, this is crazy." I guess internally I'm lucky enough, we've never been a brand that does the patent trolling thing or anything like that. We build our own moat as far as around our design process. It actually is extremely expensive to make our products because of how functional and quality they are. And that's part of our own moat as well, built into the brand. But because this looks so much like it, we were like, "This is insane." It's actually far cheaper, low quality product. Our bag one for $100, they put it on there for $20. And they called it the Amazon Basic's Everyday Sling. They didn't even change the name, which was insane. They called it [crosstalk].Stephanie:[crosstalk] already good name, might as well just [inaudible] that too.Elish:Exactly. I work with our marketing team, we're all jokes here. Adam Saraceno, our head of marketing has gotten really adept at writing our scripts or videos. He wrote the script for this video and just came up with the idea and we've got an in house video team and we were recording it and we had this plan, we're going to make that video, put it on YouTube, we'll send it on email. We put it up, we sent it out and it caught fire on some forums. It started making its rounds. Before we knew it, we had something like a half a million views. And then that took off even more. I think the video has over 4 million views at this point. But the idea was like, "Are we going to sue Amazon? We're a fly to them. What can we do? We can trust that our customers can laugh at this along with us, and we can poke a little fun at them. That's all we can do."Elish:That's what we did and point out. If you watched the video, we sort of point out that you have a choice when you buy stuff. You can buy our stuff where we're blue sign verified. We're now fair trade. We pay our factories workers far above the local wages in their local... we produce in Vietnam. We're very honest about that. We offset all of our carbon and we lifetime warranty everything. It's going to last you forever, if it doesn't, we'll replace it. Amazon, you get what you pay for. But that's our message. It's easy to get frustrated, but I think it's probably better for your brand just looking at the long-term. Just stick to your guns, trust your brand, trust your product.Stephanie:Yeah. I think that's what I loved about the video, because it was so masterfully done and it's always a good reminder of why, like you said, frustration, anger probably won't connect with many people because sometimes... I mean, I think anyways, people want to see funny stuff, happy stuff. And the video was perfect where it's like, "Oh, if you don't care about all the bells and whistles, all the stuff you just named [crosstalk]." It was just so well done, especially when they were drawing it out, drawing out the product and being like, "Oh, do we want something that's actually good quality, now take that out and take that out." It was just really well done, and I'm not surprised it took off. What else helps get it in front of people to really help spread it?Elish:I mean, it was mostly word of mouth. We definitely put a few advertising dollars behind it. When it took off, we amplified it, just cause it was resonating with so many people, and I think that's important. Especially in digital marketing, you're testing content all the time, you're like, "Is this working? Is that working?" This was obviously working. I didn't need to test it against anything else. Yeah, we put some ad dollars behind it on Facebook to get it out there as well. But after we had about a half a million views on it.Stephanie:I also saw you tagging Jeff Bezos and Amazon support team and all these other people. I'm like, "Oh, that's good." But also, once again, the way you were doing it was just funny. I can't remember the Twitter copy of what you guys were saying, but it was very funny.Elish:That was Joe Callander on our team and he was like... I remember him messaging Adam and I going like, "Hey, I'm writing these tweets back to these people. I'm putting this. It's a little edgy. Is that okay?" We're just like, "Dude, gloves off, man. Go for it." He really went for it and I think it turned out really well. I like a lot of the YouTube comments because there are definitely some people in there... YouTube has got the worst trolls, I think. YouTube, there's definitely a few people like, "Why am I going to spend 100. I'll just get this $20 one." And he would just write something like, "We'd love that for you."Stephanie:Oh, that's great.Elish:"Go for it."Stephanie:It kind of reminds me of morning Brew. I don't know if you've ever seen them respond to people. Or Wendy's Twitter channel where they reply to people and have it out with them. I'm like, "I love it because they stay so close to their brand and their voice and keep it funny." Hats off to your team for knowing how to keep it on brand and keep it engaging for people. When Amazon came out with the knockoff product, and I think you said you've had other companies as well knock off your product, what kind of result did you see on sale? Did you see a direct impact when they came out of like, "Oh shoot, our daily revenue just went down in half and now we need to figure out how to claw our way back in front of our customers."Elish:Luckily, the Amazon thing made buy our bag more. I'm sure it lifted their sales as well because we just got so much hoopla, and it got a lot of press attention. Pete, our CEO was doing the rounds on a bunch of the media channels. On the other ones, we really didn't notice. If anything, it riled up our customer base because they would see it and be like, "This is just like my Peak Design bag and this is just like this." Their claws would come out and they'd go after it. That's definitely... I attribute that to our Kickstarter base and how we formed as a company of like we created this place where people thought they were part of the brand, and so they'll step out the defend it as well.Stephanie:Oftentimes I don't see brands maybe highlighting all their differences. That's why I loved your video when you're like, "Here's the five or six things that we do that you'll never find with an Amazon Basic." Did you guys maybe change your strategy or how you were messaging that? Because maybe before you weren't as upfront about like, "Here's why you should buy with us."Elish:I'm glad you brought that up. We definitely started steering away from it because early on in our brand, we certainly did that. When we started making camera straps, we were like, "This is how the other people work. This is how ours works." Then we were just like, "Maybe the product can just stand on its own." And it did because the functionality of our product was so different for so long. But again, that was a unique scenario where our product was absolutely different than the competitors. Now the competitor is copying our product. So now we're forced to be like, "They copied it, but not very well." It's almost like we need to inform our consumer of the pitfalls of trying to buy something that's similar to ours, but probably fails on quality and functionality. They're getting duped by getting these cheaper made knockoffs.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely important to come back to the roots of... you have to defend your ground and you might lose sight of that for a bit, but it's interesting to hear how it comes full circle with like, "Okay, lean back into our differences."Stephanie:The one thing I wanted to circle back to was going through what it looked like when you joined the company, when it was sub 1 million and then where it's at now, close to 100, and talking about... I know we were just talking about earlier, how you're going to go into the redwood forest, you're going to be creating your own content and thinking through your marketing tech stack, and I want to hear what that evolution has looked like, because I think you mentioned the team didn't scale up with that revenue as much as maybe other companies would have done. I just want to hear it behind the scenes of what that looked like.Elish:Yeah. Credit to Pete, our CEO, and he's been extremely protective of our company culture. We're a pretty tight knit group of people, we're close, I think 38, maybe close to 40 people. When I joined, we were 10 people and it was just me and one other marketing person. As I mentioned, a lot of that was to keep culture tight, but also, we try to prioritize what we need to do and not do too much more than that. One of our mission value statements is to prioritize happiness over growth. When you start adding too many people, sometimes you end up literally looking for work for them to do, and then you're managing all those people. Then the business becomes about managing people, which is a part of a brand, but more or less so than the product.Elish:We are definitely a product focused company and it's about letting the marketing stand on the quality of the product. What we've done to enable that is rely on creating a really good network of third parties. Our shipping is third party, our warehouses are third party. We have some in-house customer service, but we have a little bit of outsourced customer service as well. For marketing, we really rely both on my strategy and executional knowledge, but we amplify that with an external digital agency. What that allows us to do is remain really nimble. During the pandemic, we didn't have to lay off anybody. We didn't make any pay cuts. We've been profitable since day one because we haven't had to push scaling because of not having investors as well that say, "We need you to make this much profit in the next five years."Elish:That's been really stressful for sure, in some instances of hyper growth because we have been growing really quickly, but again, what it came down to, it was like, "What's important in this moment? Okay, we're launching this new product, let's put all eyes there, let's make the right content, get it in the right place." I think we're going through another little phase of growing pains where we now have a very large assortment of skews and we're feeling the pinch of trying to maintain the attention on them across the board and then also making sure that we're supporting our retail and wholesale accounts. Half our business is from places like BNH and REI and we're distributed around the world. They need tons of content as well. They need our help on making sure the brand is represented correctly.Elish:It's becoming a lot of work. We've been scaling on our design and creative side, but there's starting to be a pinch on the more technical stuff. We're trying to think through, does that mean a bigger agency? Do I need to start hiring more internal people? I think it's going to be a combination of the both. I think it's going to be a skeleton crew internally that is really good at handling or wearing a lot of different hats, but then managing some external help as well to make sure that it amplifies our abilities.Stephanie:Yeah. What's the best way to structure it when you're working with agencies to make sure that you can scale yourself? Like you said, you're one of the people who are... "here's the vision and go." How do you make sure that it scales in a way that is not totally going off course?Elish:Oh man. That's a really good question. And I can't honestly say I've figured it out. I'm really not sure. I got to be honest about that. I'm going through it right now, and I think... to be quite honest, I think I haven't been able to... there's only so many hours in a day [inaudible] that require attention and it's really hard to separate or to combine strategy, deep thinking and execution. You have to turn one off to do the other. I think that's been a hard lesson that I've learned over the last year and a half, which is I do need time to just sit and write and think while I'm not executing. I'm really thinking about making sure I separate those roles for sure.Stephanie:It's definitely a hard question and a good thing to figure out, but you have time, there's no rush.Elish:Yeah.Stephanie:What does new customer acquisition look like? How are you guys approaching finding new customers and maybe keeping your current ones?Elish:There's the classics, which we definitely continue to double down on, which is... it's funny PR is an age old thing, but it's still so important and making sure that you stay just in the conversation. For me, when I'm thinking about going for... we've been so getting into the gear reviews and top 10 lists, and I'll never trust the best 10 lists ever again after being in there initially, because it's not like-Stephanie:It's how much did you pay to get that spot.Elish:Oh, yeah. Or who do you know exactly. It's not like someone went looking for the best stuff and like, 'This is what I found." No, all that stuff was definitely put in there. But to me, it's about the conversations you're starting around your brand and industry as well. When it comes to our mobile product or trying to stir up the conversation of like, "What else do you do with your phone? How do you use it in your daily life? Is having just the skin on it that doesn't do anything useful?" Because we are using it elsewhere, in our car, on our desktop, we've made a function on our bike and how it works. Do you have to jus pound people with your product or can you talk to them about it and start the conversation?Elish:There's the whole... We started digital marketing in paper, Facebook, social media advertising, Instagram. TikTok obviously, Reddit, but man, that whole industry, I think, is going through an upheaval currently, obviously with the change in privacy data that Facebook and Google and everybody is facing, and is making everybody rethink about how they're stacking that in their marketing funnel. I think it's a good thing. I think people are starting to think about the intentions and nature of their message in their advertising again, as opposed to, "Oh, if we change this button to red instead of blue, that's going to..." what intention... is that excepted to drive conversion?Elish:I think people have been overthinking the data part for a really long time instead of trusting your marketing instincts/knowing that, or just not really paying attention to the marginal benefit of spending a week trying to figure out what color button needs to be... what else could you have done with that?Stephanie:What are you guys doing? Because, I mean, I think it's such a scary world for a lot of brands who have relied on that pixel tracking, and everything they've been used to, it feels you have to move quick, make decisions in an unknown world where you're like, "I don't really know how they should operate." How are you guys thinking about it moving forward?Elish:Well, you can still track the classics, which are engagement. Then layering in other strategies of making sure you're getting first party data: your email capture and the campaigns you're doing with that. Before we could track everything, we were still trusting things like how many people were seeing it impressions and the quality of someone's audience and so on, on an influencer campaign. But also again, being a part of the conversation in places like Reddit, TikTok and making sure that that is a constant stream of content as opposed to these big advertising things where people are just blind to them now. I don't remember the last ad... I definitely learn about people or a brand, and I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting," but it's pretty rare that I click, and we've seen that on Facebook's ROI and every number across the board has tanked over the last few years. You used to put an ad, it could have anything in it and you'd get a 10 X ROI. Now we struggle to get three.Stephanie:What channels and platforms are you trying out now? Because to me, TikTok sounds like the perfect area. I get so many photography tips on there. I don't know if you've seen all those videos.Elish:Absolutely.Stephanie:That seems like a perfect channel. If you can keep that content going though. But what are you guys betting on?Elish:Yeah. We're exploring TikTok. I don't know if we're betting big there, because our demographic is a little bit older. I do have a theory that there's a very active demographic in... we're in the 25 to 40 range. I think people 25 to 40 are still actually really active on TikTok. They're just not-Stephanie:I am. I'm flapped out in the middle. I'm on it.Elish:But they're consumers, they're not posters, they're not commenters, which is fine. I think that is going to be somewhere we'll probably spend a lot of energy. We're definitely doubling down on content pieces on YouTube and places again, where we can talk directly to the population. Email's still a really big thing in customizing that consumer journey on how we reach them on that. So when they reach our website, where are they seeing? Where are they looking? Where are we sending them? Those are big. Then I'm obviously looking at Reddit. Reddit has had a pretty big limelight over the last few months, just with the game stuff. But otherwise I'm open to suggestions. So send them my way.Stephanie:I mean, I haven't heard too many people talk about Reddit. Are you just thinking about going after Reddit influencers in a way who are talking about what kind of bags to use, or how are you thinking about that?Elish:Yeah, I think we're going to look at it from the social media manager perspective. Someone who's going to go in there and just start conversing. We do have... especially with the gear focused product line, people are like, "Oh, what do you use for your Canon camera? What do you use for your Nikon camera?" Then just inserting ourselves on an organic level there. I don't know about Reddit influencers yet, but certainly something to consider. But I want to keep that as organic as possible to start out withStephanie:Yeah. It always seems hard to scale those efforts when you want to go about it in an organic way, but then thinking, "Okay, one person can only comment and keep up with so many threads and then if they also have to do Facebook and Instagram and everywhere else, it seems hard unless you continually to hire more people."Elish:Yeah. The scaling part is hard. I'll be interested to see if there's ever a good agency that can figure out how to represent your brand Well.Stephanie:Let me know, because we have not found it and we've tried many. I keep trying and trying, I'm like, "One day we're going to find something perfect."Elish:Same.Stephanie:I also think there's something to the frictionless way of shopping on a lot of these platforms. I even think about TikTok. I'm the quiet consumer who's looking through all the stuff, enjoying it, but then I will go and open up a Chrome browser to find that product. I'm the worst kind of consumer. You have no attribution on me. You don't even know where I came from. But I think there's something there where because that platform still feels like there's a little bit of friction from that video. Sometimes it flips so quickly, you don't have time to click. Is there even something to click? It seems like there's a lot of room for growth around making it easy for the customer to buy.Elish:There's been a movement to do the specific app to app based experience. Allbirds did a really good job of it. I just downloaded the Nike app, just being like, "Oh, I need a new pair of shoes," and I saw on their website. I was on my phone and then they were like, "Get the Nike app." I downloaded it and I was... this at the airport, and I bought a pair of sneakers right there because I was like, "Those are cool because they..." I mean, this definitely works with someone with a much larger skew count, but they served me a product that they thought I would like. I don't know how they figured that out. But they figured it out somehow. Maybe they just have really good products. I was like, "That's cool." They had everything built in Apple Pay, all that stuff, made it super easy. It was kind of scary, it was one of those situations where I hit buy, and before I knew it, it was paid for and was shipping to... I was like, "Wait, did I mean to do that?" And I-Stephanie:"My finger just went there and it just happened, and now I have shoes coming."Elish:Exactly. I thought that was a really cool and something... We've done a lot of work on our mobile experience, but we have a lot of work to do. I think people have... most websites they go to have a big thing to figure out for the mobile experience.Stephanie:That's something I've thought about for a while now, because previously at SaaS I worked before, many people talked about going to an app free world, and apps were a thing of the past. I even noticed that in my own history, it's like, you get a phone early on, you get a billion apps, you run out of storage, you chill out a bit and you're like, "I don't need all these apps anymore. I don't want to try everything." Then storage gets easier. So then you're like, "Well, maybe I'll try a few more." But now I'm back in the stage where I'm like, "I'm good with just a couple of things. I don't want everything there." How do you see it? I mean, I think you mentioned Allbirds did this too. What do you see that future looking like and how should brands maybe try it out there?Elish:I think, to your point, we're trying to figure it out again. I liked that app experience for a couple of reasons, which was, when you become a fanatic or just really into a brand, you're okay having that because what Nike and Allbirds are also doing well is serving up really good content on those apps. I'm inclined to go into the Nike app because they've got something cool to send me, put me in, even if I'm not buying something, I'll go look and read about it. That's a big play. Earlier as the experiences on the other platforms. Shopping in feed on Instagram and stuff, which is becoming a much better utilized thing. I think we probably need to utilize a bit better as well.Elish:There's features in there, especially in influencer campaigns when you're able to link your account to other people's Instagram accounts so that they can tag your product feed. That's interesting to me and disseminating it in that way.Stephanie:Yeah, that's definitely an interesting world to think about. I also think if you bring in your tribe and a community and create an experience that you can't get elsewhere, then maybe I would open up the app. If it wasn't just product focused, like you said, if there's content there, if there's something that's going to draw me in and keep me engaged. But it does feel hard sometimes to keep me engaged on an app, unless I get that dopamine hit, open it up and get something new. That's a high bar to have, having something new every time.Elish:Definitely a high bar to have. Then I think Casper, I don't think they have an app, but I've been in the market for a mattress. Man, I sound like a real materialistic consumer these days, but-Stephanie:Probably get so many ads coming your way. They're going to hear you. They got the voice recognition and they're going to be [inaudible] you.Elish:I'm in the middle of trying to buy a mattress and they executed on the text game really well. We do text marketing and it works really well in getting people past the last decision point. They're like, "I don't know if I want this size or that size." I don't know if you've talked to a lot of people, but text is great. People are like, "I don't think people want to receive text messages." Surprise, surprise. They actually do. They don't care.Stephanie:If [inaudible] something they want. That's what I've heard, is texts can be great if you're not just pushing products all day. If it turns into a conversation and maybe giving them some kind of value, instead of just like, "10% off, 10% off, it's a sale happening." It needs to feel personal and give value.Elish:It does. But it's a balance. If you give them enough value and then when you need it, you can send that 10% off text. It still works and that's worked really swimmingly for us. But I think the stakes are the same, if not lower, maybe they're about the same of sending an email. Just like with anything, don't overdo any piece of marketing, you annoy people. But I don't think it's any less or more annoying than any other piece of marketing I get from people as long as it's not overdone. In Casper, if you go to their website, they just really did the text acquisition, the opt-in process really well. The 10% off if you sign up for the email and they figured out a good way to do it for text as well, "Oh, you want to get this coupon straight away?" Let us text you." I thought that was cool, a way of just activating someone very quickly.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any other brands that you watch where you pulled some tricks from, and you're like, "I love watching Nike. I love watching Casper, and then actually trying that out within our own company?"Elish:Good question. I think I've listed the ones that I've noticed recently, and definitely Allbirds did a good job. I had a good post-purchase experience recently. I'll just give you the outline of what that was, where I needed to return something. Well, first of all, obviously, there's the way of tracking and making sure that you get in contact with what you bought and where it's coming and when it's coming. There's lots of good apps for that. We use one called Shipup. And then I needed to return something and, I'm forgetting the name of the service, but now they've set up places, you can just return something. Instead of shipping it back, you just drop off at the local location. It's usually a business. It's a win-win. You bring someone into your business, you can return it there. It was seamless. I remember in the store, the person... I think I was just in some random boutique dress store and I was returning a blender for Amazon.Stephanie:Oh, that's cool.Elish:I'm making those things up, but it was that sort of distinct, that sort of contrast of what I was doing. I remember then scanning the product and then I got a notification of my refund directly on my phone in that second. I was like, "That's awesome. Now I know when I buy from this person and I need to return, it's going to be seamless. I'm not going to worry about where my money is, where the product's going." It made me want to buy from them again. It was great.Stephanie:That's a good experience. I think that's such an important reminder too, about lifetime value of a customer. It's not always about those quick hits. Like you said, if I were to have an experience like that, I would buy many more things much more quickly, if I'm like, "Oh yeah, I can just go right next door and this boutique will take any of my returns for all my blenders that I buy."Elish:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:That's awesome. What experimental things do you plan on doing over this next year or two that you're most excited about, but you don't know if it's going to work, or maybe that your team's even telling you like, "No, Elish, this is a bad idea."Elish:Really good question. I'd have to go into my notes. I ideate on this stuff for a while. But we tried some podcast stuff last year when money was a little bit more free flowing for us. We are a travel bag brand, so that's definitely taken a hit for us. And that was exciting at the time. We had a piece on Conan O'Brien show and I was like, "Oh, Brian said Peak Design. That was pretty cool." As far as I can tell, CPMs for podcasts are still relatively low compared to other things. I think that's great. I think there are some expansion in still are our email practices on how we're collecting emails and moving outside of that. What you mentioned just now, what we talked about, the being able to shop our product in social posts that aren't even our own, there are some technologies, video technologies out there where you're shopping in video when it's placed on someone else's website. I think that's really cool.Elish:Then partnering with our distributors more on how they're representing our brand and getting that more up-to-date message out quicker with them. Reddit, we mentioned. Forums.Stephanie:Well, I think it'll be interesting with all the pent up demand of people wanting to travel and get there.Elish:I hope so.Stephanie:It'll be fun to probably see a very different peak than maybe what you've seen over the past year or so, and you all just have to be ready for it, I guess.Elish:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:Cool. All right. Well, let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer.Elish:Okay.Stephanie:Are you read?Elish:I'm ready.Stephanie:You're adjusting your seat like, "Ooh, I got to get ready for this."Elish:Yeah. Ready.Stephanie:All right. First up, a few people know that I like to...Elish:Few people know that I like to play poker.Stephanie:Are you good at it?Elish:I was a professional for a year. Right after grad school, I was looking for a job and I played live poker for a year.Stephanie:Awesome. What one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Elish:Oh, man. So many things. Probably... sorry, I have a minute or less. Is that right?Stephanie:Yeah.Elish:Give me a bell if I... Just topic of the times right now is definitely the Bitcoin market and different types and where, give me a glass ball of where that's going because I want in. Every time I think I've figured it out, I learn something new and I don't. Yeah, I'd love to understand the future of the economics of how that's going to work.Stephanie:If you were in the Austin area, I would tell you to come to our little crypto dinner that we do, where we go deep into futures and investing in that. It's a very interesting space. It's around here.Elish:Okay. I'll come visit it sometime, for sure.Stephanie:Yeah, that sounds good. A time when I made a powerful choice was when what?Elish:Oh man. I've quit a lot of jobs and taking that chance on myself. I did that when my last corporate job, if you will, I worked for American Express and I said, "I'm just going to go figure it out," and I've never looked back. I know that's a common story, especially in our worlds, but that was the most freeing choice I've ever made, is just I will never work for a large corporation where I can't be in control of my destiny.Stephanie:I love that and I agree. I think it's still always a good reminder though, because it's easy to get pulled in. A good reminder to be able to have that freedom to do what you want. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Elish:I think it would be something about just the hilarity of the world, how it intersects... just how we all take ourselves so seriously, but then trying to basically pull back the layers of the onion on that, and then looking at how it's affected us as people when it comes to our depression, our nutrition, and how we live our lives. It's basically all of the loose things that you could think about for the millennial generation and make fun of it, but in a serious enough way to be like, "It's going to be okay, man." I think we all get so caught up in like, "How am I changing the world? What are we doing?" I think the message I'd like to tell most people is like, "This is..." the message of the movie Soul. Did you see Soul?Stephanie:Yeah. So good.Elish:It's like, "Oh man, I'm trying to do something big." "Actually you're doing the big thing. This is it."Stephanie:I like that. Who would your guests be then?Elish:I would get a combination of some... I think, going back to Conan O'Brien, I love Conan. He is one of the funniest people out there. I think he went through this crazy arc where he was supposed to take Jay Leno's spot and then they took it away from him. He got pretty angry about it and now he's still doing his own thing, and I'd love to talk to him about... people have talked to him about that, but where he thought he saw yourself going and now where he is now and if he's okay with it, and just what perspective that it gives him.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, I love that. That's a good one. All right. And the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Elish:The climate and how we think about people and consumption. Fast fashion is going out of fashion. Absolutely. I hope anyway. But I actually don't know that because I don't know if I'm just in a bubble or I'm just in a bubble of people that care.Stephanie:No, I think I agree with that. There's such a big shift now to sustainability and how companies are creating things and paying their employees and all that. Yeah, I agree. That was a good forcing function this past year, too, to think differently about all that. Elish, it's been such a fun interview. Thanks for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Peak Design.Elish:Peakdesign.com. I just had a contact button up, but you can go to elishpatel.com and email me if you have any questions.Stephanie:Amazing. Well, thanks so much for joining us. It's been a blast.Elish:Thank you.

The RailsConf Scholarship Program (https://railsconf.org/scholarships) 03:12 - Tram’s Superpower: Getting 8 Hours of Sleep Per Night! 04:08 - Leah’s Superpower: Being a Companion to Long-Distance Runners 04:55 - Stefanni’s Superpower: Doing Things She’s Terrified of Doing 05:34 - Being Afraid and Grappling with Self-Doubt * Asking Questions and Being Vulnerable * Call-Out Bad Behavior 12:34 - Team Psychological Safety 17:20 - Education & Learning Environments; Tech Journeys * Ada Developers Academy (https://adadevelopersacademy.org/) * The Turing School (https://turing.edu/) 27:52 - Making & Noticing Progress; Comparing Yourself to Others * The Confidence Code: The Science and Art of Self-Assurance---What Women Should Know (https://www.amazon.com/Confidence-Code-Science-Self-Assurance-What-Should/dp/006223062X) Reflections: John: Finding new ways to be of service to other people. Leah: What can we proactively do to make our space safer and more conducive to diverse thought? Mando: It’s okay to make mistakes and not be perfect. Steffani: How common it is to openly talk about these things in the Rails Community ❤️ Tram: Representation matters! Humanization and inclusivity. Calling people out. Lending Privilege -- Anjuan Simmons (https://anjuansimmons.com/talks/lending-privilege/) Transcript: JOHN: Hello and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 235. I’m John Sawers and I’m here with Mando Escamilla. MANDO: Thanks, John. And I'm here with three RailsConf scholars who are going to be joining us today, which I'll like to take turns introducing yourself, maybe starting with Leah? LEAH: My name is Leah Miller and I’m a Platform Engineer at Highwing, which is an insurtech startup based out of Denver. Before making over the switch to tech, I spent almost a decade in the insurance industry primarily working as a production underwriter. In my spare time, I enjoy running and craft beer and frequently, the careful combination of the two. I’m also a new dog mom to a rescue pup named Orla. MANDO: Great. Tram, you want to go next, please? TRAM: Yeah. So hi, everyone. I'm Tram Bui. I’m currently attending Ada Developers Academy, which is a tuition-free coding program for women and gender-diverse folks in Seattle. The program includes an internship match with a Seattle tech company. So currently, for my internship, I work as a Developer Relations engineer and what this means is that I try to make it easier for Rails developers to deploy their apps to the cloud. Outside of coding, I try to maintain it and improve my high school tennis skills. I also like to read books and also, thinking about my next great public transportation adventure and volunteering for local nonprofits. And then Stephanie, I can pass it on to you. STEPHANIE: Hi, I'm happy to be here. I'm Stephanie and I've been working with Rails for the past 4 years, but now I'm trying to transition from dev full-time to having my own projects. And besides software, I also like to talk about plant-based diet, financial independence, and mental health. Also, if you have noticed my accent, I'm from Brazil, but I live in Vancouver, BC and yeah, I'm really happy to be here. JOHN: Awesome. Welcome to the show, everyone. So this is just a little setup here. Not every year at RailsConf, but most years at RailsConf, we do have a special episode where sometimes, we've got many of the panelists are together and so, we can record in the same room, which is obviously very novel for us. This year of course, it's all online. One of the things we’ve also done is bringing in some of the people who are part of the RailsConf Scholar Program, which is the program to expand access to tech conferences to people that are underrepresented and to give them some guidance on how to make the most of their experience at the conference. We always think it's great to get the opinions of people that are brand new to this industry and see what their perspective is on everything. So we're going to start off with our usual question which is what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? We can go really in any order. Who would like to go first? TRAM: I can go first. So my superpower would be the ability to get 8 hours of sleep a night [chuckles] and I think I acquired this power – I think I was very just like, I loved nap time as a kid and I grew up knowing the importance of a good night's rest. I think for me to be my best self, that’s one of the big things that I need to have. I think growing up and going to college, it was very like, “Oh, sleep is not important,” but I always had noticed the importance of sleep and I think it does hustle economy, too. People are very fast to just cast aside and was like, “You can sleep when you're dead,” but I'm like, “No, if you don't sleep, you will die faster.” So I'm going to take every opportunity that I can do at least get a full night's rest. LEAH: I am so jealous of that superpower. [laughs] I think mine feeds into a little bit of the opposite of that, but my superpower is the ability to keep people company when they're running through the night during a 100-mile races, or ultra-marathons. So people running it 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM, getting really down, needing someone to lift them up, I can run alongside them and sing, or just be a companion to keep them motivated. I think I acquired this skill from being a middle child. I spent a lot of time just entertaining myself and being pretty independent and if you can entertain yourself, it's pretty easy to extrapolate that to others, keep people going, so. [chuckles] STEPHANIE: I would say that my superpower currently is a work in progress actually, but it's doing things even if I'm terrified of the way I always struggled a little bit with self-confidence. How I acquired that, I actually had to go to therapy first to build the foundation, but now I think I've been getting pretty good at it and the feeling of doing the things that you're scared at the end is a really good feeling. You feel like a superwoman. [chuckles] JOHN: Oh, those are all such great answers. I want to dive into each of them, I think oh, my thoughts are jumbling up because I want to ask questions to all of you. Well, I think I'll start with Stephanie. That's an amazing superpower and it's definitely going to serve you well. It's something that I've had to learn as I develop my speaking career at the same time. Even just thinking that it was possible for me to get up on stage and do that, that took a while to get there and then actually doing it also took a lot of practice. So certainly, that's going to be awesome. MANDO: Yeah. It's so easy to just keep doing the things that you're good at and try to ignore, or maybe push off the things that you're not so good at, or you don't have that confidence in, Stephanie, like you were saying. It's funny, I keep relearning this lesson over and over again, there's this project at work that I've been putting off and pushing the JIRA ticket over just because I kept telling myself that it wasn't important and that I could do – other things were higher priority. It's just because I was kind of scared, but I wasn't going to be able to do it as well as I could do the other things. I just had to sit down and do it and then I pushed up the PR and it got ripped to shreds by the other wonderful, [laughs] amazing engineers that I work with. But it's good. I didn't die. [laughs] So it’s funny how we have to keep learning these lessons over and over again sometimes, I think. JOHN: Yeah, that reminds me that there's a related skill in there also, which is realizing when you were afraid of something. Sometimes you think, “Oh, it's just not important that happened right now.” MANDO: Yeah. JOHN: As an excuse, but once you realize, “Oh, I'm actually afraid of how this is going to go.” It allows you to approach it differently. You can be like, “Oh, okay, well that's what this is. All right, then now I know how to like face it, head on rather than pretending it's some other reasons.” So I think that that's really important as well. MANDO: Absolutely. Yeah, and it took me a couple of days to [laughs] realize that that's what I was doing and it wasn't until that was the last thing I had to work on for the sprint after I had reshuffled and moved everything over and then looked at my other teammates, JIRA boards to see if they had any stuff that I could help out with [laughs] that finally I was like, “Well, okay, I guess I'll just do this one.” TRAM: Yeah. I think sometimes for me, the anticipation, or the thought of it is even scarier than actually doing the task itself. I've had this happen to me so many different times. For instance, with the podcast, I'm like, “Yeah, this is something that I want to do because I like listening to podcasts,” but I was like, the nervousness and the scariness of putting myself out there and just thinking about it leading up to this moment, it's so much scarier than actually being in the moment and talking with y'all. So yeah. LEAH: I think part of it, too is recognizing that your feelings are not existing in a vacuum. There's other people that experience the same insecurities, or just going through what you're going through. We were interviewing someone a couple weeks ago at my company and just talking about the stressors of being from a bootcamp and being hired into an engineering organization as either a junior developer, or a mid-level developer, or whatever level, but just knowing that your background isn't a CS degree, or it's just a little bit different than what other people have. And then having that insecurity of I'm pushing up a PR and then are 20 people going to make comments on this and then that gets pushed to Slack and everyone sees all 20 comments. Am I going to be laughed at, or looked at as less than? So it's just nice to express that to someone else and have them regurgitate the same feelings, or just reflect back to you that you're not the only one who's having self-doubt in that way. MANDO: Yeah, and it's tough for me at least to remember sometimes that I come from a very different place privilege wise than other folks on the team. So it can be a lot easier for me to do stuff like, just push this PR up and ask for comments because my experience may be very different than someone who doesn't have my same background, or the amount of experience that I have, or the kinds of relationships that I may have with other folks on the team. I strive to help create spaces whether at work, or wherever where people can feel comfortable asking questions and not worrying about people coming in and being overly critical, or negative, or whatever. But my lived experience is very different than others. That's something that I need to keep in mind that you can't always just assume good faith that everyone's going to treat you the way that you would maybe treat them and I have to actively work and actively communicate to people that this is that kind of place. JOHN: Do you find that there are specific things that you do to communicate that, or at least to make that ambiently knowledgeable to the other people in the team? MANDO: That's a good question. I think the easiest thing you can do is make sure that you're modeling both sides of that behavior like, asking a lot of questions, putting yourself in vulnerable situations, and then also, making sure that you always jump in and respond positively when others do that so that you can help set a baseline. I think of what the behavior should be and what behavior is expected, and then the second thing is always making sure to call out behavior that doesn't hit the bar. I can't remember where I first heard this, but my buddy, Jerry, he's the one who always drops the phrase to remind me, he says, “It's as simple as saying, ‘We don't do that here.’” It doesn't have to be a big deal. It doesn't have to be a huge problem, or anything. Just when there's behavior that you don't do here, you say, “We don't do that – [laughs] we don't do that here.” It's as simple as that. LEAH: I love that. MANDO: Yeah, Jerry's awesome. JOHN: I think this is a really interesting topic because I'm always looking for examples of ways to make that easily communicated in a team environment. So have any of you had experiences where maybe someone else on the team was able to communicate some thoughts of psychological safety, or things that made you more comfortable being who you were on the team? LEAH: So I can speak to the team where I work. We're a startup. We have about 15, I think maybe officially 16 people now and we have, I think just hired our fifth female to join the team, or a fifth non-male to join the team. We have created just a private channel for all non-males on the team in Slack where we can communicate with each other and we've set up a happy hour once a month where we can meet. You don't have to drink alcohol. You can just sit and chat and we just have an hour set aside where no conversation topic is off limits. It's just really helpful to just set aside that time where there's no outside influence and it's just the five, or six of us, or however many there are right now [chuckles] who can join and just chat through what's a win for the week, or what's a struggle for the week. I think part of it is giving each other the space to express what's going well and also, express what's going wrong, and then see if others of us on the team can be a champion for the other person and just offer support where possible, or step in when something's happening that we need to maybe put a stop to. Our private channel is lovingly called The Thundercats, [laughs] which I'm pretty fond of. MANDO: [laughs] That's fantastic. You make it almost sound like a union kind of [laughs] where y'all can have this place where you have this ability to do collective action, if necessary. I think that's just fantastic. That's amazing. LEAH: And I should say that the men on our team are fantastic. So this is not like a – [laughs] [overtalk] MANDO: Of course, yeah. LEAH: Escape hatch like, we're all upset about stuff, but it's just nice. Regardless of how wonderful the men on the team are, it's nice to have a space for not men. [chuckles] STEPHANIE: Yeah. I think that for me, from my experience, the one that I was more comfortable with was at my first Rails job. It was still in Brazil and the team was totally remote and they did lots of peer programming. They did a great job in onboarding people, but peer programming was way more than onboarding. It was a common practice and I was just like, “Wow, this is so cool.” You could learn so much more beyond just a code and besides that, I felt really comfortable in seeing that no one was scared of doing anything wrong like, there was a really good communication. So I think that the main thing that needs to be worked at, when you're working in a team, is to make sure that everyone feels safe to do their stuff and they don't feel like, “Oh, I'm going to be judged,” or “I don't want to try this because I don't want to have to handle with anything from management,” or whatever. So maybe having that feeling, “Oh, we make mistakes here. We are humans, but we try to make the best to learn from them.” That's a good way to improve this team behavior, I guess. [chuckles] JOHN: So you were able to see the other people on the team, that you were paired with, making mistakes and being okay with it and just that became obvious to you that that was the thing that happened all the time and it was fine. Right? STEPHANIE: Yeah, and especially because I was also self-taught. I actually went for computer science for one year, but I dropped out. I always had this idea that people with more experience, they know everything. [laughs] That was like a mindset that I changed and it made me feel way more human, more than anything at first, and that's when I started seeing how much it's important to think of your team and how much that affects everyone and in your company as well. MANDO: First of all, shout out to comp sci dropouts. I made it just a little bit farther than you, but I know exactly where you're coming from. I had that same thing in my head for a very long time that these folks with their degrees obviously must know so much more than me and I have no idea what I'm doing. That's one of the things that I've always loved about the programs, like the RailsConf Scholars, is that for me, one of the things that helps combat that imposter syndrome thinking is working with folks directly who are earlier in their careers, or have less experience. So not only do you get to help them, guide them, and show them things and stuff, but it really does help serve as a reminder of all the stuff that you do know. There's nothing better than talking about something with someone, being able to explain it to them and help them, and then you walk away and you're like, “Oh yeah, I do know some things, that's kind of nice.” TRAM: I think in talking about dropping out of a major, or switching majors, my experience and my journey into tech. In college, I was quite afraid. I had a requirement to take a CS class, but hearing all these horror stories from other people made me delay taking it. I actually took my first CS class, my junior year of college and while it was really challenging, I definitely enjoyed it way more than I thought I would. But since I took it too late in my college career, I couldn't switch my major, or couldn’t minor, or major in it and that really stuck with me because, I think going and finding the ADA Developers Academy, which is a coding program, it’s like it was my second chance at doing something that I wanted to do, but didn’t have the time, or didn't have the confidence to do in college. One thing that is nice, that I keep thinking about, is that even if I did do a CS major in college, that environment instilled with the competition of it and instilled with, I guess, people who may think that they know more than you may have not been conducive for my education. But what I really enjoy about the current coding program that I'm in is that it's all women, or gender diverse folks and we all come from all different walks of life. But one thing that we have in common is being really empathetic to each other and that environment, I think made all the difference in my ability to learn and to see that there is a community that would champion me and that would also try to uplift other people. JOHN: Yeah. I think that highlights the importance of that initial learning environment. If your first exposure to tech is a weed-out course when you’re trying taking CS in college, you're probably never coming back to it. But having an environment that's specifically designed to actually be supportive and actually get you through learning things can make all the difference, really. MANDO: Yeah. My oldest son is going through a computer science course, or computer science curriculum at UT Dallas here in Texas and his experience is a little bit different, I think because of the pandemic and he doesn't have that in-person structure. Everything's different. He's not having in-person classes. So it's forcing it to be a little more collaborative in nature and a little less kind of what you were saying, John, like waking up at 8 o'clock in the morning to go to some 300-person weed-out class. I think it has served him a little bit better having things be a little weird in that regard, but it is funny to see how little the curriculum and set up around getting a computer science college degree has changed in the 20 years since I took it. That's a shame and I think that that's why the places like ADA Developers Academy and other folks who are showing people and especially employers, that there's different ways for people to get these skills and get this knowledge as opposed to a strictly regimented 4-year, whatever you want to call it, degree program. Leah, you came into technology, you were saying, through a different path other than your traditional computer science degree? LEAH: Yeah. So I majored in math in college and wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do with that and when I graduated, it was 2009, to age myself. [chuckles] It was 2009 and the economy was not doing very well and a lot of my peers were really struggling to find jobs. I went for a leadership program at an insurance company and ended up staying there and moving to Cincinnati, Ohio, which I had no desire ever to go there, [laughs] but it worked out fine. I ended up in this insurance company for almost 10 years. Met some really wonderful people and I got to do a lot of really great things, but just kept having that question in my mind of if it hadn't been a poor economy and if it hadn't been whatever factors, could there have been another path for me? I just kept thinking about what I enjoy doing at my job had nothing to do with the insurance side of things. I found that I got really into writing Excel formulas, [chuckles] those were the days that I was having the most fun and I was working remotely, living in Charleston, South Carolina at the time. After chatting with a few friends, I found the Turing School of Software & Design out in Denver. So I quit my job and moved out to Denver and two days after I moved there, I started the bootcamp program. After an entire week of school, I still hadn't unpacked my bag of socks and several other things from my car. So it was just kind of a whirlwind, but I picked Turing because they had an emphasis on social justice and that was really important to me and I think it served me very well as far as being able to meet a lot of people who are like-minded—who also picked Turing for similar reasons—just wanting to better the community and be a force for good with technology. So yeah, that was my rambling answer. [laughs] MANDO: I know that I struggle a lot with knowing the “good programs” and the not-so-great bootcamp style programs. Like anything else, when stuff becomes something that's popular, it attracts folks who are speculators and usurious, I guess, for lack of a better word. [chuckles] So you hear these horror stories about people who go through and spend all this money on bootcamp programs and then can't find a job, don't really feel like they learned the things that they were supposed to learn, or were told they were going to learn. It's nice to hear good stories around those and some good shoutouts to solid programs. LEAH: It was definitely stressful and we had a hallway that we deemed “the crying hallway.” [laughs] But I think it did serve me well and has served many people well in the several iterations that Turing has had over the years. MANDO: Yeah. Just because it's a solid program, or a positive program doesn't mean that it's easy by any stretch. LEAH: Totally. MANDO: I remember one time I was talking with an old coworker and she was telling me about her experience going through the CS program at Carnegie Mellon. This woman, Andrea, she's easily one of the smartest people that I've ever met in my life and she's fantastic at everything that I've ever seen her do. So to hear her talk about going through this program and finding stairwells to cry in and stuff as she was a student really shook me and made me realize that the stuff's not easy and it's hard for everybody. Just because you see them years later being really, really fantastic at what they do doesn't mean that they spent years trying to build those skills through blood, sweat, and tears. LEAH: Yeah, I think one of the things that was hard, too is you have no idea what playing field everyone is starting from. It's easy to really get down on yourself when you're like, “This other person is getting this so much faster than I am,” and come to find out they've had internships, or have been working on random online courses teaching themselves for years, and then finally made the decision to go to a school versus other people who haven't had that same amount of experience. It's another lesson and [chuckles] just level setting yourself and running your own race and not worrying about what other people are doing. TRAM: I totally agree with that, Leah. I feel like sometimes I compare my starting point to someone's finish line and I'm like, “Oh, how did they finish already? I'm just starting.” It can be really hard to think about that comparison and not get down on yourself. But I think it's also really good to keep in mind that we only know our journey and our race and it's so hard to have all of the other information on other people, how they got there. So it's just like, I try to remind myself that and it's like, I think the only one that I'm trying to compare myself with is me a month ago, or me a year ago instead of someone else's journey. LEAH: Totally. JOHN: Yeah, that's actually something I'm trying to build into a conference talk because it's so hard to see your own progress unless someone points it out to you. Especially as you're grinding through a curriculum like that, where it's like you're always faced with something new and you're always looking ahead to all the things you don't know. Like, when am I going to learn that, when am I going to get to that, when am I getting to know all these things like everybody else? It takes extra work to stop and turn around and look at, like you said, where you were a month ago, where you were three months ago and be like, “Oh my God, I used to struggle with this every day and now it just flows out of my fingers when I need to do a git commit,” or whatever it is. Being able to notice that progress is so important to feeling like you're not completely swamped and struggling the whole time; that you're always looking to the things you don't yet know and never looking at the things you do know, because you don't have to struggle with those anymore. They don't take up any space in your mind. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I can relate to that as well. Something that I've been doing that it's working a lot is okay, I look to others, but I try to see what they did that I can try to look forward. Like, “Oh okay, so they did this and this looks like something that I want to do,” but I only compare myself to my past self because it can be really – I don't think it does a lot of good to anyone, in fact, when you compare yourself to others, just for the sake of comparing. But if you do see that as an inspiration, “Oh, look, this person is showing me that what I want to do is possible and that's great because I have now more proof that I'm going the right path.” It definitely takes some time to change this little key in your head, but once you do, it gets so much easier and so much lighter. You see even people in a different way because you start asking, “I wonder if this person is struggling with this as well because it's not easy.” [laughs] So this is something that it's helping me. MANDO: Yeah, that's something that I'm struggling with right now with my daughter. She plays high school softball. She's fantastic, she's an amazing athlete, and she's really, really good, but she's a freshman on the varsity team at the highest-level high school team. So she continually compares herself against these other girls who are like 2, 3, 4 years older than her and have a lot more playing time and playing experience and they're bigger and they're stronger. I keep trying to look for a way to help her understand that, like you said, Stephanie, she can compare herself to herself yesterday and she can look to these other players as inspiration as to what's possible. But what she can't do is get down on herself for not being there yet. That's just not fair at all and she may never get there. There are a lot of other factors, outside of how hard she works and what she does, that will contribute to how she's going to finally be. That's another thing that I have to [laughs] work on just me personally is that we all have our own built-in limitations and we all make choices that set us down only so far down a path. I choose to not keep my house completely spotless because there's only so many hours in a day and I would rather go watch my daughter's softball game than deep clean a bathroom. I'll eventually clean the bathroom, but today, [laughs] it's not going to be cleaned because that's the choice. But yet for some reason, I still get down on myself when I come home after the game and I'm like, “Ugh, why is this house so dirty?” STEPHANIE: Yeah. I think now that you mentioned that you have a daughter, I remember this chapter from this book called The Confidence Code. It’s a really, really good book and it talks about all the reasons women are the ones that more self-confidence and how we can put ourselves to compete. There is a chapter for parents and how you can help your daughters to not go through the normal route because it will happen. Not that much anymore, but we are still, in terms of society, expected to behave differently and the book brings you really good tips for parents. I think you would be nice for you. It looks like you want to learn more about that? MANDO: Yeah, for sure. Thank you, Stephanie so much. I'll take a look at that and we'll include a link in the show notes for that and some of the other stuff. Any and all help [chuckles] is very much appreciated. JOHN: We've come to the time on the show where we go into what we call reflections, which are just the takeaways, or the new thoughts, or the things we're going to be thinking about that we've talked about on this episode that really struck us. So for me, it's a couple of different things. First Leah, you were talking about being a companion to long distance runners, which is something I had never thought about being a thing, but of course, the moment you say it, I'm like, “Oh yeah, if you're running a 100 miles, it'd be nice to have someone keep you a company.” That sounds great and it's something you need to be suited to. You need to be able to run and talk and so, finding new ways to be of service to other people, I think is really interesting part of that. I think the other thing that struck me is we're discussing different ways of increasing psychological safety on the team and the ways that you can communicate that to the people that are there. Those are the things I'm always keeping an eye out for because I always want to be able to provide those to my team and so, hearing your examples is just always good for me just to have even more different ways of doing it in the back of my head. LEAH: Well, thanks, John. Yeah, I think the big takeaway for me is just what can we proactively do to make our space safer, or just more conducive to diverse thought? I think, Mando, maybe you asked the question of what we were explicitly doing at our companies, or if anyone had ever done something explicit to make us feel safer, or invite us to participate fully in the community of developers? I think there is a lot more that can be done to help people feel as though they're a part, or that their opinion matters, or their belief matters and their contribution will only make the team better and stronger. MANDO: Yeah. I think that was John who asked that and then I rambled on for about 20 minutes afterward, so. [laughter] LEAH: Sorry. MANDO: But that reminds me, or that that leads into my reflection. Stephanie was talking about the one of the things that helps reinforce that psychological safety for her was seeing people make mistakes and having it be okay, and having that general attitude that we're going to make mistakes and bad things are going to happen and that’s okay. It's something that Leah, like you, I work at a really, really small startup. There's five people at the company total. So the pressure to make sure that everything is done right the first time is pretty high, the pressure that I put on myself, and it can easily spiral out of control when I start thinking about how long I've been doing this and then the should start to come out. “You should know this,” “You should be able to do this,” You should get this stuff done quickly, or faster,” or “It should be perfect.” I need to keep reminding myself that it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to not have it be perfect the first time, it's okay to not be perfect. So thank you for that reminder, Stephanie. STEPHANIE: You're welcome. I have to remind myself every day as well. [chuckles] It is a daily practice, but I can guarantee you that it's so much better, things like life in general is so much better, so it is worth it. I think that my takeaway here, not only from this talk with everyone, but also from the RailsConf in general and the Rails community is how common it is to talk about these things at our community. Like, yesterday at the keynote, I saw the diversity numbers and I was like, “Whoa, wait a second. I think this is the first time that I go to a conference and someone is talking about this openly.” I think that's one of the reasons why the Rails community is so important to me and I want to continue the legacy. I think that talking about these names is what makes our community unique and I'm really grateful to be part of the community. TRAM: Yeah, I think my main takeaway is what I've been reflecting on the past few days and this conversation is one thing following the psychological safety theme of how can we have more inclusive and safe environments and like Leah said about representation matters. The people you see around you and the environments that you are in can help you to feel a certain way and when there's such a monolith of people in a certain company, that can make me feel very scared and open up to what I think, or my thoughts are. So I think the diversification of type is very, very important, but also just humanizing people and that's one thing that we can do today is highlight, be open about our mistakes, but also have an environment that is inclusive enough where people can speak up about their mistake and that inclusivity begets inclusivity. You're not going to just say that you're inclusive and don't have actions to back it up. Also, I think what Mando said about calling someone out. Sometimes being a newcomer to a company, I don't feel like I have the power to do that and sometimes, it's uncomfortable for me to do that. So having someone who is in upper management, or someone who has a little bit more power showcase that that's something that they have the power to do, but something that I can do also is really helpful. So that's something that I would try to reflect more on and act upon because it's been a really wholesome conversation and I'm glad to be a part of it. JOHN: Wonderful. Yeah, and to your point, Tram, there's a talk that was actually at RailsConf a couple of years ago by Anjuan Simmons called Lending Privilege. One of his points is that those of us who have the higher levels of privilege, we can wield it for good and we can do things like putting ourselves out there to say, “No, that's not okay on this team,” or to lift someone else up and say, “Hey, you just talked over, what's her name.” Like, “Please Stephanie, say what it was you were going to say,” or like, “Stephanie mentioned that idea tenured 10 minutes ago and we ignored it.” So using that privilege, or the position on the team. I've been at my company for 10 years so I have a lot of social capital; I can use that for a lot of good. I'll post a link to that talk as well in the show notes because I think it's really important concept. All right. Well, we've come to the end of our show. Thank you so much to all of our scholars who were able to join today, Leah, Stephanie, and Tram and thank you, Mando for being here. This was a wonderful conversation. MANDO: Yeah, thanks everyone. LEAH: Thank you. MANDO: It was fantastic. STEPHANIE: Thank you! TRAM: Thanks, ya’ll. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Special Guests: Leah Miller, Stefanni Brasil, and Tram Bui.

Mini malls, shopping centers, and large department stores all still exist and remain popular despite their digital counterparts But online marketplaces are where more and more brands are gathering to not just sell goods, but to get a better 360 view of their customers, and gain access to sell products from other big name brands that fit their marketplace niche. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I explored that idea a bit more with Jason Wyatt, the Executive Chairman at Marketplacer, a business dedicated to creating marketplaces. We dove into the various ways that Jason has seen marketplaces evolve, especially in recent years. Plus, Jason talked about some of the incredible innovation that he’s seen take place  thanks to marketplaces — including the birth of Providoor, an Australian marketplace for restaurants that was built as a reaction to COVID-19 and reached a $100 million run rate within 12 weeks. We talked about how the marketplace connections made that possible, and also how the B2B landscape can be revolutionized thanks to marketplaces. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Getting The Bigger Picture: By creating a marketplace, businesses can get a much deeper picture into the attributes of their customers, while also gaining access to inventory and products to sell from big name brands. The key to success? Curation.We Have A Connection: One of the greatest advantages of a marketplace are the connections that can be formed within them. Especially from a B2B perspective, because for so long those buyers have been left out of the ecommerce equation. They desire the same level of connection and ease that those in B2C have come to expect though, and marketplaces have provided a way to create community and engagement that has made B2B selling and buying much easier.Long Live Loyalty: Big brands have long tapped into loyalty programs as a way to earn customer trust and keep them coming back. By expanding point systems to usage within a marketplace, brands are now becoming even more trustworthy and respected in the eyes of consumers, who can all of a sudden get more bang for their buck. Additionally, the rise of wide-ranging marketplace loyalty strategies will likely become a new way for retailers to attract customers to newer marketplaces.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, I'm Stephanie Postles CEO at mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have Jason Wyatt, who currently serves as the executive chairman of Marketplacer. Jason, welcome.Jason:Hi Stephanie, thanks so much for having me on the show today.Stephanie:Thanks for hopping on at 7:00 am. I think you're one of the earliest guests I've talked to over in Australia, so I appreciate you coming on and joining me for a fun chat.Jason:No worries at all. It's just a pleasure to be on the show and talk to your community.Stephanie:I was hoping we could start back in your... way back in the early days when you were 13, because I saw a fun story about what you were doing back then and a little entrepreneurial spirit that was going on, and I was hoping you can kind of share what you're doing back then so people can get to know you a bit before we dive into Marketplacer. This is all around a loan that you got from your dad if you know what I'm talking about.Jason:Well, I might, I was actually... I was a mad sports fan, as the majority of Australians are in this country. And I was playing tennis at the time, if I'm on the right track with this story. And we used to play a lot and pretty competitive. But my brother was a lot better than me, but I used to sort of grab onto his heels, but we constantly used to break racket strings. And we didn't come from this massive affluent family. We come from a family of just, the harder you work, the luckier you get. But dad, what he did do is he loaned us the money to buy our own stringing racket. He just said, "If you keep breaking these strings, well you got to fix them yourself."Jason:My brother and I took advantage of that situation. We figured we had an unfair advantage versus the other tennis players within the group. And then what we actually did is we turned that into a little tennis racket stringing business. So at the age of sort of 13 or 14, we were making a hundred bucks a racket, stringing out sort of four rackets a night and we had a little good business going on. I suppose the entrepreneurial spirit sort of started at a very, very young age where we had a problem to solve and then we solved it for other people.Stephanie:I love that. It definitely rang close to home because I was out in my neighbor's yard, raking, weeding doing anything I could just to earn $5 here and there. And I love hearing about how other people had that itch early on too, and seeing what it turned into later on in life.Stephanie:I'd love to jump into Marketplacer a bit and hear what is it? When did you create it? And what are you guys up to today?Jason:Marketplacer is probably the most fascinating business that I've ever been associated with, because it enabled so much global connection and enables people and businesses all over the world to sell things they don't own and to really supercharge commerce. And the story started back when my co-founder and I, Sam Salter, we just had a simple idea 13 years ago to make it easier for people to buy and sell bicycles. And we created a business called BikeExchange. Think of cars.com for bikes. You're buying a new bike and you want to see everything in one single destination or you're selling your bike and you want to sell it to a community that's a trusted community, has a sense of belonging behind it. And we created BikeExchange. But in doing that we had some really, really big, tough entrepreneurial problems to solve.Jason:We had to come up with a sales and marketing plan. We had to come up with a customer success program, but most importantly, the technology never existed. So, we not only have to be great salespeople, not only a great customer focused, but we had to become technologists at the same time. And we just thought, in everything, in creating a business, in creating a marketplace on a global scale it's a problem that we could help other entrepreneurs or other businesses now actually start to use a platform to enable them to be able to create it. So the story was born out of solving our own problem, out of eating our own dog food in a technology term. But now we help people all over the world in 10 countries solve that marketplace journey, of really just making it easy to connect a customer and community to make it easier for them to sell things they don't own and to supercharge commerce. And I'm sure we're going to unpick what that means in a lot more depth over the next hour or so.Stephanie:That's awesome. What's wild to me is that building a marketplace is notoriously like the hardest thing you can do in commerce. Everyone struggles with supply side, demand side, how to build which one first, and you're not only doing it once. You're replicating it, using your software and doing it with multiple industries. How do you even go about approaching it, especially if it's a new marketplace?Stephanie:You had your bike one, I know earlier you were talking about meal delivery from restaurants, how do you even think about building a new marketplace and solving for both sides of the market?Jason:It's a really good question because we always identify what we consider to be an unfair advantage when we help our clients and customers really figure out whether it's a worthwhile strategic project for them. Because it's a strategic project to go through, that marketplace journey. And the unfair advantage has really been always anchored around two core elements. The first being an existing community or audience or customer base that you know they want to buy more things from you. Or you know you can connect them up in a single destination to improve that customer experience. And the second is more often not the ability to have an in-depth knowledge of the supply base, a connectivity into that supply base and product base. You can actually really exploit the now and explore the future around connecting those two sides of those marketplace journeys.Jason:The evolution and the story of a marketplace has really evolved over time too, from the humble beginnings of a BikeExchange when we first started. It's now in 10 countries, and now we're out around the world and listed on the Australian stock exchange in January of this year.Jason:Thank you, awesome team effort by the team. To really large retailers and brands and, and all types of traditional types of business saying, "Hey, I've actually got one or probably two of those unfair advantages and how can I make it easier for me to grow and drive growth within my existing customer base, without the limits of capital and without the limits of actually producing all of the products, but enhancing my customer experience along the way?"Stephanie:How do you figure out, I mean, how I'm envisioning is that you would probably have like a lead brand who's for the bike one or for the meal delivery one you'd have to have kind a lead person who's owning that marketplace and then they're onboarding other brands as well. And other customers, is that how I'm thinking about it? Because I can't imagine having 20 BikeExchanges where every bike company is, "Well, I want my own marketplace. And I want mine." It seems once you have one, it's probably good enough and you have to be a part of that one.Jason:It's a really, really good question.Jason:There's different types of marketplaces, but the evolution that is really happening at the moment is, take SurfStitch for example. SurfStitch is actually a commerce cloud customer. They're a pure play surf wear brand. They sell hard goods, soft goods and clothing and bus fashion around it. But they've got this community, this tribal community of surfers and they're really a successful business, great growth really, really well leveraged on the commerce cloud stack. But when they looked at their business and they looked at their strategic path, they're constrained by warehouses, they're constrained by the capital, but they had in the back of their mind that they thought that, if we could have the full range of surfboards, instead of only taking 20% of the range of surfboards in all sizes, by connecting up to the wholesaler warehouses.Jason:And then to unpick that to the next layer, when you think about it, a surfer is quite a soulful person. They love the outdoors and are they only surfing? Or are they going hiking on the weekend? Are they exploring the outdoors as well? But I don't want to put a hiking gear in my warehouse. That's too risky, but I could go and connect up to Patagonia to take a full range extension from Patagonia without owning the inventory. So by taking a marketplace strategy or really a growth strategy, what they were really able to do is make it easy for them to connect that to a supplier base, to improve their customer experience and really enhance that 360 view of what that customer is trying to do. Not only from a data perspective, but a product and an experience perspective.Stephanie:Got it. That makes a lot more sense now. And it also just seems the role of curation is so important and whoever's curating the best products and not just throwing a thousand things into one marketplace, really thinking, like you said of, okay, you might be hiking, but you're probably not cooking too. Like I'm not going to put cookware in my marketplace with Patagonia stuff and surf boards. It seems like curation is huge when it comes to that. And also knowing what's trending and what their customers will like is a big part.Jason:Yeah, but it also enables this strategy, the ability to fail fast within there as well. If you put it a camping stove on there or a shower after you go for a surf, to clean yourself off, you haven't bought it. You've had a go at growing in there. It didn't work customers didn't like it. So just turn it off.Jason:With Marketplacer what we really focus on as well, is a really strong vetting engine for the sales force customer and any of our customer community so that they... it's just not a free for all, for all of the products flowing through. It's that ease of connectivity into the supplier base. And then it's the strict controls and measures that you can put in place to enable your customer experience within the marketplace strategy, not just "the everything for everyone" experience. If that makes sense?Stephanie:Yeah, it makes sense. I was going to ask when it comes to marketplaces, how do you guys think about marketplace or versus the Amazons and the eBays and Etsy's of the world that seem like they are kind of creating custom curated collections in a way too. But not as much of a niche level where I would say "Okay, we're going to be doing bikes and here's your community and your people." How do you think about the landscape of marketplaces right now?Jason:It's a very interesting landscape, because it's kind of a bit of a cross matrix at the moment, Stephanie. In that there's B to B, B to C and B to B to C plays within what we're trying to do. And then if you take the types of marketplaces the other way, so all three of those really go across all three gamuts. And then if you take the types of marketplaces, you've got the niche and the tribal based marketplaces, and we put media organizations into that bucket. If you imagine all of the great magazines, like we power lots of magazine marketplaces, where Time+Tide is a good example of a watch marketplace, where they have the beautiful content, they have the trust within the industry. They had a community of people looking to buy watches, but they didn't have that connectivity into the supply. But now they've got it. Another really great example is FishBrain, which is the world's largest fishing marketplace.Stephanie:Didn't know that existed. That's awesome.Jason:I'm not a big fishing person, but think of Strava fishing. Think of a really, really large... I think they've got over 13 million users within the United States now. They wanted that into a commerce play, but they didn't want to own inventory. They didn't have a buyership, they didn't have product developers. It was too difficult to do it. So what they did is they partnered and they connected into the world's best fishing suppliers to create a marketplace. Now that has over 60,000 products to sell that you can just buy.Stephanie:Is there ever a chance of them getting lost. When I hear 60,000 products within a fishing marketplace, how do you get found in that big marketplace?Jason:That's an interesting one. So fishing is probably the best industry to do it because what I have learned about fishing is there's lots of micro products for the local areas. So there's lots of little lures and lots of little different tackles setups, the different communities and different areas. There's lots of niche products within the niche. That one makes a ton of sense to have a really big, broad breadth of inventory within that.Jason:So if you think of the tribe, the addressable market behind people trying to take that convergence of content into commerce and contextual commerce, that space is born for a marketplace. Isn't it? It's an affiliate 4.0 where it can connect into the supply banks. Then you look at brands and retailers and franchise groups and cooperatives. If you actually look at the structure of all of those businesses... Co-operatives and franchise by default are marketplaces. They're a masthead brand their third-party inventory is owned by their franchisees groups. What we're finding in this space is we're just increasing the offering that they can have.Jason:We connect up their franchisees group into a single destination. For example, actually within Australia, we run the largest tire business called Bob Jane T-Marts and Bob Jane T-Marts are a really large franchise group. They're a $600 million business. And tires are a complicated product. They seem simple, but they're incredibly complicated because you've got to match every tire to every car to every wheel ever made, ever sold.Jason:But by creating a marketplace strategy within that, they're really famous for solving one problem. We connected up all the franchise groups via our marketplace technology. But if you think about it, what they really have is car data and car ownership data. What else could they sell a person at the BMW, other than tires and wheels that could enhance their car driving experience? You'll start to see lots of these franchise groups, not only connected in unifying their customer experience, but actually starting to think about how can they enhance their customer experience without the cost of capital burden placed that amongst their franchisees group or cooperative structures and buying groups are in the same bucket.Jason:Then if you just think of traditional retailers, whether they're a pure play or a bricks and mortar or a blend of both. Which the world has a blend of both now, right? There's no real, just pure play or bricks and mortar retailers anymore. So the problem they're trying to solve is exactly that problem we talked through with SurfStitch. How do they enhance their customer experience in store or online. Where they can range extend or category extend, to supercharge their commerce journey within that.Jason:And that last sort of bucket within that is that brand or wholesaler journey. And the brand and wholesaler journey is a really interesting one because it does really touch on those three sort of core verticals that I said at the start being B2C, B2B and B2B2C within that.Jason:The first one's pretty obvious from a B2C perspective, if you're a brand and you can see a perfectly complimentary product, why would you want them to leave your platform to buy it from another platform? Why wouldn't you just connect it up to enhance your customer experience?Jason:If you sell shoes for example, I'm going to dumb it down, but if you sold shoes, how could you connect up with a sock company that had the best brand to associate the shoes with socks without actually owning all of those imagery behind it? And we've seen lots of great examples of that. We actually power the Nokia marketplace. If you're thinking of buying the phone, what other connected product and you put in within that connected ecosystem and Google are a partner of Nokia phones globally now, and all of the Google products is going to be available on the Nokia marketplace.Jason:You can start to see this connectivity piece really, really drive home within that. And then from a B2B2C perspective is how do you not cut out your stockists? How do you find a way as a brand or a distributor in a modern world not to cut them out. Whether it's a marketplace, a unified experience, but what our marketplace platform can do is connect it all up. You can cut your retailer into these third party product sales, but without, without actually going against your traditional business model. And we're seeing a fair bit of that momentum behind it as well. Then the growth space and it's going to be really interesting, because I think that the world is saying how, from a B2B perspective, from a traditional brand, when you're selling to retailers when you're consolidating in a B2B industry, how does a marketplace make sense?Jason:There's Alibaba and then there's not much. The interesting play within there is the unfair advantages to businesses is pretty similar then than it is to a B2C perspective. Their unfair advantage is really anchored around their existing stockists or retailer base that they sell into. They've got a great community of sales representatives or sellers on the floor, who are going around and servicing them. How can they then connect up to other suppliers in other industries that could actually self to that community and we make it easier to do that. And there's a really sort of large demand at the moment behind B2B marketplaces as well. It's an interesting thing to call these things marketplaces. They're not all marketplaces, but what we're doing is we're connecting the world to enable supercharged commerce.Stephanie:I love that. I want to hear a little bit about the revenue numbers. When brands embark on this marketplace journey, what are some stories when a new company starts revising your guys' tech?Jason:It's a really interesting story and journey behind it. I'll give you one example during, during COVID, the world's a different place and we all know that, and there's not much point in delving into what's next after COVID. I think everybody's thinking about what's next after COVID but what we fundamentally know today. It's just a different world. It's a different world than it was in the past. And the power of connection during COVID in a digital sense, drove some of the greatest innovation stories that I've seen for some time. And I'll share the story of Providoor. In Australia, this is a case study we rolled out.Jason:It's nearly exactly this week, last year to the day and a great friend of mine, but a celebrity chef Shane Delia. He owns some of the best restaurants in Melbourne and he's got cooking shows on TV and big personality, vibrant, enthusiastic. Had 150 staff behind his restaurant business at four restaurants, one at the airport. The institution restaurants you know, think of Mamasita in New York. These are like famous restaurants within this country. And he emailed me and he just said, "Jason, I'm stuffed. I've got all of these people, I've got food, I'm just throwing into the bin. I've got leases that I've got to pay, but I've got this one glimmer of hope."Jason:"I've just done a trial where yeah, I'm doing ready, sort of made precut food where the customer just has to finish it off at home. So it's like they're getting the magic of a restaurant quality experience in their home."Jason:And he said, "I've done it for a couple of weeks and I'm selling like $5 to 6,000 a day." And I said, "Well, talk me through the problems that you've sold." And he said, "Well we've solved this packaging, we've figured out how to I get it to the customers with the boxes." He did this in a week, like extraordinary innovation. He's, he's sourced the products, the lined boxes, he's got the dry ice, he's fixed the packaging for this. So the tumor is sort of doing, you know, that those types of volumes in a small way. And I said, "How are you delivering them?"Jason:He said, "Well I've got no choice. My chefs are preparing it, My chef's are driving at 35K around Melbourne, to drop it off at people's doorsteps at 4:00 am in the morning." And I said, "Well, you've probably got to solve your logistics problem in a real quick way. But there's something in this, because there's a demand." You're not doing any marketing, your unfair advantage is you're... I call him a B grade celebrity, he probably thinks he's an A grader. But he's got this celebrity audience that he can tap into. He's got trust within the community. The other chefs will trust him. He's never gonna do anything wrong by that industry or community and customers just loved it. If we could solve a couple of problems, i.e, how do we make it easy for all restaurants to sell in the same way and create a marketplace around it.Jason:And then how can we make it easy for people to get the delivery experience behind it? I think you've got the bones of a really good business. Shane's a pretty good hustler. And five weeks later, we'd pulled every string in the world to get Providoor live. Where the best restaurants within the Melbourne CBD was selling to a 35 kilometer radius of the Melbourne CBD, get it delivered in two delivery slots AM and PM. They would cross stock. The trucks would drive around Melbourne pick up every box. Cross stock it into a single parcel. So you would only get a single parcel. You could order from all the restaurants in one. If you were entertaining in your home or just wanted to release from COVID, or you had a birthday party, or mum and dad couldn't get to the restaurant, then you could actually experience it. And after a 12 week period he was on a $100 million rate. Solving those capital problems.Stephanie:And this was from other restaurants as well that he onboarded onto essentially the marketplace that he created. It started with his restaurant. He brought on others as well. What does the cut look like for him versus the restaurants that are also selling on the marketplace that he essentially established?Jason:Yeah, it was again, really interesting. Shane took, I think it was a 15% slice of the pie. So he actually...Stephanie:Who decides, or you decide when you create the marketplace how much you...?Jason:Yeah.Stephanie:Nice, okay.Jason:It's part of the marketplace platform, when you create a marketplace. We solve all of those commission calculations and you choose, as running that marketplace, what each seller gets, and you can change it by product or category. Now you can do really complex commission calculations, but we also manage all of the seller payouts. You imagine that volume in that period of time, if you're cutting checks, so you're doing individual payments it's un-scalable. So that's why he had to... besides the fact that's why you needed a marketplace platform to, to scale at that rate, but it just shows you if you can leverage those couple of unfair advantages and pull it together in a really neat way and solve a problem, how big you can get quickly.Stephanie:That's crazy. It sounds like you kind of want to make sure you have an audience first or partner with someone who does already have, like you said, that tribe, who's kind of waiting that you can tap into that. How do you go about even convincing customers to come and buy on a marketplace? Are you doing anything around exclusivity where it's if you're selling your bikes or your box meals or whatever on Marketplacer, you can't also sell, I don't know, on DoorDash, do you have DoorDash in Australia? Or something similar.Stephanie:How do you think about creating that moat around the market places that are building up?Jason:I think any business, whether it's a marketplace or not a market place, you create moat. And if you could get the number one selling product of the world and get it exclusive to your business, whether you own it and send it yourself, or whether it comes direct from the supplier. I would a hundred percent recommend that every single day of the week.Jason:In Shane's situation and in Providoor's situation he solved some pretty big problems. No one else in the world, in my opinion, in a five week period could have created this marketplace. And then secondly he partnered exclusively with the logistics company that was an under utilized fruit. You imagined it was a fruit delivery business where they were delivering to corporates, their fruit boxes. And they went from a hundred percent capacity to 0% capacity, but then Shane took them back to a hundred percent capacity. So you've got to, you have to find very innovatively, underutilized, cold, refrigerated delivery network in a really short space of time. He created a couple of really, really solid moats that enabled it, nearly impossible for somebody else to do it in that period. But they were just extraordinary. But the short answer to your question, I'd always promote a moat.Stephanie:So try and make things exclusive, if possible. How do you bring... what are some of these brands methods of bringing their customers onto a new platform? Because that does kind of feel like it could be an experience that might cause a bit of friction of like, "Oh, I'm always used to either just buying directly from your website or just buying from Amazon." What kind of tactics should a brand use if they're trying to convince someone to come and buy on a new platform that maybe they haven't heard of before.Jason:You're talking from the end consumer experience when they're buying from you. It's all around trust in the process. It's in that front end customer experience or any communication around it, it's about building trust and rapport around building a marketplace community. And there's many techniques you can use around that.Jason:Some companies choose not to even say who the seller is on the marketplace. They take a really hard supplier agreement and they say, here's your SLA supplies. If you don't supply under these terms and conditions in these ways, then we're going to exclude you from our community, moving forward. Other marketplaces take the opinion of, "I'll let you rate my supply. I'll let you rate your seller." So it's going to be a customer led trust build up around it.Jason:Other marketplaces over time have put their own sort of ratings and experience... the one thing I'll say around the customer journey when you don't physically own the product is you've got to be really clever and your communicative style. The items might not appear in one parcel, items maybe sent at different times. And if you can bring your customer and community along that journey, they're very attuned to it in this world that you don't get one single parcel from one single vendor every single time and boxes can appear on different days, just as long as the communication strategy around when they're turning up. I mean, the timelines as a customer's experience is really well handled. I think it's a problem that's that's well solved in market.Stephanie:Always good to make sure you're doing it in a trustworthy way where your customers are like, of course I'll go where something's being sold and there's good curated products there. What are some best practices around developing that community and keeping your community engaged and making them want to come to your marketplace that you built up. What kind of tactics do you see happening behind the scenes that are working?Jason:We're seeing at a little bit of scale at the moment, the loyalty programs being attached back into the marketplace strategy. And I think it's a space that's going to be really interesting moving forward, whether it's loyalty or membership economies or subscription economies around it, it's something that's definitely an interesting space.Jason:Take Myer's another example within our region, but Myer's a really large department store. It's the Macy's of Australia. It's the number one department store. They've had some really challenging times, pre COVID and obviously during COVID. Big box department stores, lots of inventory, really expensive leases. And they've kind of been kicked off from every corner. Right. But what they did have is they had an incredibly loyal customer base that actually had a brand affiliation with Meyer, but most importantly had a really strong brand affiliation with the Meyer loyalty program, because it was such a good rewards program.Jason:When they launched their marketplace, they actually gave the customer base the same points that they would earn on Meyer across all third party marketplace products. And you could use your points to buy from all of the third party products.Stephanie:That's imposing.Jason:Exactly. And we won a, I can't say who, but we've won a major global airline at the moment where instead of just being able to book airfares using your airline points, now you can buy 40,000 products using your points, promote burn perspective from your airline miles. So I think what you're going to find is this community of traditional loyalty programs or earn and burn points systems, being able to tap into really broaden their range to become really big, meaningful marketplace strategy, loyalty program.Stephanie:That's super smart. The one thing that's coming to mind is thinking about data privacy and how does the sharing work, especially if you're onboarding other brands onto your platform, I'm guessing I would want access to that customer data. I'd want to be able to talk to them, especially if I'm shipping something to them, or even someone's viewing me as a person that's shipping it to them, even if I'm not really in the backend. What does the sharing of the, maybe customer information look like, in a way that's probably protected and keeps everyone safe.Jason:Say for example, we're talking to the commerce cloud community. If you're a commerce cloud customer, you're the merchant of record in that instance, aren't you? You're always controlling the customer record. You're controlling, you're receiving the funds yourself. But you do have to share the customer address and you do have to share some details of that customer because they've got to receive the items. You've really got to make sure your supplier agreements are quite stringent around data privacy. And then within the marketplace platform, there's a couple of configuration points where you can mask email address and not mask email address. So there's configuration around customer privacy settings that gets forwarded through to that end seller within there as well. But what we actually find is that the broader supplier or seller community is unbelievably respectful of the end customer because they're attuned to selling in this methodology now, and they know if they break or breach those privacy laws or those privacy policies that you set up as a marketplace operator, is that they're going to be cut off and, and they're going to lose that whole channel.Jason:We've had basically no problems of that over the journey of Marketplacer. It's something that's a very small, minimal risk.Stephanie:Amazing. Let's talk a little bit about ads. And I'm thinking about you're this big marketplace. Maybe if you're the fishing one, you've got 60,000 products, I could see you guys having an entire ad unit or the person who maybe is owning the marketplace, starting to create a demand side platform when it comes to delivering ads. And how are you guys approaching that right now with all the brands that you're onboarding?Jason:The world of relevant display and sponsored contents and contextual commerce, back in to market places is a real interesting space. Because if you can not only just send your products to a third party marketplace, but then you can buy specific media around it and launch products within it. It's super exciting. We're actually integrated into Google DMP, and all of those great ad serving systems within that. And what you'll find especially as the world moves into a headless commerce situation, is that the brands can put whatever DMP they want into the commerce cloud headless stack. They can be really quite innovative around, not only just creating traditional revenue streams for the product they own. Not only creating modern revenue streams in the fact that they can sell things they don't own, but now they can actually turn their traditional retail businesses into a media business as well, which obviously comes at a much higher gross margin than physically owning the inventory.Stephanie:Any innovative stories that you see happening around the advertising space within Marketplacer? That brands are maybe trying just new and different things because of the operating model of this new business they didn't have access to before?Jason:The obvious one that just comes to mind is actually BikeExchange. BikeExchange does exactly that every single day of the week. It connects live into all of the retailers. As part of the Marketplacer platform... because some of the problem in the marketplace scenario is how do you make it easy for your sellers to connect? How do you make sure that the inventory is accurate and live? How do you make it so that when a retailer of stock list receives the order, that they can just seamlessly process it, without having, necessarily a billion spreadsheets rolling every direction for everything they sell. We sold that in a really nice, elegant way where if you're on... and if you've got an existing POS system, so point of sale system or an existing e-commerce engine, we built pre-built connectors for the majority of them in the world.Jason:If you're a bike seller selling on BikeExchange and you're on Lightspeed and you wanna send your inventory into the BikeExchange marketplace, it takes minutes. What would typically take hours? Why is this important from a media perspective? It's because then the brands on BikeExchange or Specialized or Trek, or any of the big brands when they're launching a new product, they can actually drive the leads into stores that have stock available today. You can get very clever around your display and media allocation and where you drive the sales to. And a physical stockists level within that marketplace strategy, which is pretty cool.Stephanie:That's huge. I think about the times I try and order stuff Home Depot. And it takes me 15 minutes trying to find what store you can go to pick it up. I'm like, why is this so hard? Just don't show it to me if it's not within 20 miles of where I'm at.Jason:Exactly. And that sort of relevance posts, zip code, allocation and inventory allocation is something that comes out of that marketplace assistant, but it's all structured around live connectivity back into the source seller system. Obviously if a seller wants to connect manually and they've got a few products or they've got a CSV uploader, or they've got a great API, but it's this pre-built connector platform that's enabling our marketplace at the scale at a rapid rate.Stephanie:That's awesome, so where do you all want to be in the next two to three years? What are you planning and prepping for and building for right now, other than scaling and IPO'ing and doing all the fun, things like that.Jason:I think what really drives us at Marketplacer is we just want our customers to grow and to grow in a really sustainable way. Where they can, they can enhance their customer experience. So we've really launched hard within the United States today. We've announced that Salesforce ventures has actually bought a stake in Marketplacer and that enables us... yeah, we're so humbled by it. It's such a great experience to deal with that Salesforce community, but what that enables is any commerce cloud customer globally to now really look at Marketplacer as the way to significantly grow your business and grow your customer experience within that.Jason:It gives us deep access to the Salesforce product team. Gives us deep access to the implementation partner community. It gives us deep access to the actual Salesforce customer success team. What that really enables us to do is to help that Salesforce commerce cloud community grow and connect up to all of these great suppliers, make it easy for you to supercharge that business. And it's a core focus of ours over the next sort of 12 to 18 months, for sure.Stephanie:That's awesome. After hearing all this I'm like, why wouldn't you try this out? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of a marketplace, start a marketplace, so many opportunities and easy ways to scale that maybe it would be hard for single brands to do on their own. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's huge.Jason:No thank you so much and it's a big shout out to how the commerce cloud Salesforce, commerce cloud leadership are thinking at the moment. They're really putting that customer lens first and, and you're trying to grab those trends and you build it back within their community as well.Jason:It takes a little while for you to get your head around it. But when you dumb it down, we make it easy for you to sell products that you don't own. So you can supercharge commerce and grow. That sort of one line, and that sentence can start to really resonate with you. And maybe out of today you're not thinking this is my path, but it might just get those thought bubbles going to say, Hey, what about this supplier? What about this supplier? And if I only had those products, I'd love to try that one, but I don't want to buy it. It starts to connect it all up.Stephanie:Really good way to explain it. All right let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is of course, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce commerce cloud, which they got many shout outs well-deserved throughout this interview. So that is great. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Jason?Jason:I'm ready.Stephanie:We'll do the hard one first. What, one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Jason:I'd like to say the evolution of Marketplacer.Stephanie:That's okay. You do you. You can say whatever you want.Stephanie:What's one thing from 2020 that you hope sticks around throughout 2021?Jason:The ability to put the customer first and solve problems from a customer lens, when there was no other way to do it. And I think that transformative thinking of traditional businesses in that lens is going to put them in a really good light moving forward. We saw the acceleration of five or six years of thinking and thought, and decision-making in the space of six weeks. And just, don't let that go. Don't let that go. Let that stick with you forever. Because I think it's a unique opportunity.Stephanie:What's one thing you don't understand today, that you wish you did?Jason:French. No, I actually don't personally know how to program. I've never been a programmer and it's been to my advantage because I've never got sucked into it, but one day in life, I'd love to actually learn how it all stitches together and works.Stephanie:There you go. Well, that's a good skill to have these days. Let me know if it's hard, I'm guessing it is. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Jason:It would probably be about surfing to be honest. And it would have to be Kelly Slater.Stephanie:There you go. That's a good one. And then the last one what's up next on your reading list?Jason:It's actually interesting, because I bought it yesterday. I'm actually reading about gut health at the moment and the benefits of gut health. So I bought the CSIRO gut health book to understand how that can have benefits right throughout your life, from sleeping patterns to energy, to that holistic sort of view that the power of food and what it can do for you or, or can't do for you.Stephanie:Good, you can send me a TLDR of what I should be doing and I'll just listen to you.Jason:It doesn't mean I'm going to do it though Stephanie, this is the problem with reading. You don't always do what you should.Stephanie:We will do it. We will manifest it into our life. We will do it. All right Jason, this interview has been so fun, really a good time hearing about Marketplacer and where you guys are headed. Thank you for coming on, where can people find out more about you and Marketplacer?Jason:Traditional channels marketplacer.com and Jason White on LinkedIn and Marketplacer on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Jason:Thanks so much Stephanie, appreciate your time.

Lindsay McCormick knows a thing or two about pivoting. After all, she went from planning to live in a van and travel around the country selling her sustainable toothpaste bits to launching a transformative and still-growing company that has taken the internet by storm and has left the big brands shaking in their boots. Bite Toothpaste Bits was the company Lindsay never meant to start, but a viral video helped launch her full-time into the world of ecommerce after she went from 6,000-lifetime sales to 200,000 in a single week. Needless to say she could no longer manufacture everything from her living room, and instead was thrown into the deep end trying to find production and shipping partners that could not only make her very specific products, but do so in a sustainable way that stayed true to Bite’s ultimate mission. There were challenges around every corner, but Lindsay navigated through them all, and on today’s episode, she shares that rollercoaster ride of a story . Plus, she explained why she thinks it’s so important to keep content creation in-house, the reason she’s always testing new channels and leaning into video content — I mean, it is what launched her company — and she reveals why she’s not scared at all about the big-name manufacturers making copy-cat products, in fact, she’s excited about it. Hear all that and more on this episode!Main Takeaways:Don’t Fight The Fog: Breaking into new channels means divorcing yourself from KPIs and metrics and walking into foggy and unknown territory. Embrace that journey because not only will you eventually be able to measure success, the opportunity cost of not taking the risk is too costly not to try.Pay It Forward: Going viral comes with its pros and cons. While the huge boost in sales is a dream come true, fulfilling orders becomes a major problem that has to be solved quickly or you risk losing all of your new customers. As a sustainable business and a small business at that, Bite fought many battles to find manufacturers and fulfillment centers to partner with that met all their needs and price points. As Bite has gotten bigger and found the right partners, the company has also outfitted those partners with some of the tools that they can use to help support and grow other small businesses.Teach Me Your Ways: Educating consumers is one of the most important things an ecommerce site needs to do, especially when the product offered is something that requires a change in habit and/or expectations. Customers who take the time to learn will be more likely to repeat orders, and they will also be more likely to be understanding of things like extended shipping times.Make Em Sweat: It can be intimidating to go up against giants in an industry, but showing even a little bit of success in grabbing market share is something that will leave those big guys feeling pressure to make a change. Not only should that be encouraging to you as a disruptor, but in the world of sustainability, when the big guys start making changes, the small impact of a disruptor grows exponentially.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, Co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Lindsay McCormick, CEO and Founder of Bite Toothpaste Bits. Lindsay, welcome to the show.Lindsay:Thanks for having me, Steph. I'm excited.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm super excited to have you on here. I was looking through your background and it looks very interesting because I've never had someone on the show who had a background in production, working on HGTV shows, like all my favorite things. I was hoping we could start there where you tell me a little bit about how did you get into the world of TV and YouTube and what was that like? Then we'll talk about your company afterwards.Lindsay:Yeah, for sure. I didn't actually mean to start a company, which we can definitely get into, but I was working as a TV producer on the show House Hunters, and I was traveling all around the country filming. Whenever you're filming that show, you'd only be somewhere for a few days. So before I got into TV, actually, because I wanted to make nature documentaries and documentaries before even getting into TV, I was a surf instructor and snowboard instructor. On the off season, I would travel and make YouTube, little YouTube videos. That was like, oh my gosh, back in 2011, 2012. It was like at the beginning of YouTube and the beginning of all of these putting stuff online, and it was really fun.Lindsay:But through working as a surf instructor and snowboard instructor, I was seeing the plastic washing up on my surfboard and the climate change impacting our mountains. I wanted to get into media. I had been really, really influenced by a lot of documentaries. At the time back, it was like Blackfish where about really mammals [inaudible]. I was like, "You know what, I think media is this amazing way to tell important stories and I want to learn how to do that." I started at the bottom, I was an assistant and I was making nothing, working insane hours, but I loved it. I worked my way up over the years and then actually got to be producing. I went from shows on Travel Channel to then HGTV. That's what I was doing before Bite.Stephanie:That's amazing. What did the day-to-day look like as a producer for things like that? Because I watched House Hunters, I watched all those shows. What were you actually doing? I saw that you even did branded integration, which to me is very interesting and I want to hear what did that look like?Lindsay:Yeah, I loved it. It was so fun. For branded integration, that was different. I had previously been what was called a show producer on House Hunters. All the shows are they're all different because they need different things. But, basically, you're in a producing team and your team is responsible for an episode, and you basically like there'll be certain amount of teams and you just volley around the episodes. Like your episode one, then another team's episode two, episode three, episode four, and then you come back and you're episode six. You're like one, six, 12. Basically, you're responsible with your team from start to finish to make the episode.Lindsay:It's that would be for show producing I was helping, basically, it's funny because it's actually really similar to running a company because you're just trying to make sure everything happens, get everything together, deal with all the fires that they pop up. I had great bosses, the best bosses, I learned a lot from them. Then for integration, so that's something that I saw a huge opportunity in, and it was basically so now that people are fast forwarding through commercials or in that team going, "Oh my God, what am I in the '90s?" [crosstalk]. Yeah.Lindsay:It's commercials are important, but they started doing something, it was basically like a new work for product placement. That, actually, helped me a lot too now, like that I have a company, because it's understanding how to organically integrate a brand with an episode. So that was my job where basically there would be brands that were paying the network an enormous amount of money to be integrated into the shows that I was working on. I would be the ping pong ball going between the brand and the network and our production company, and actually being on the field and making sure it all happened. And being able to take these abstract concepts that we had figured out and make sure we hit all of the marks to get every shot that they wanted, and then deliver it to them so that it gets placed into the episode.Lindsay:That was something that is really helpful because now we're making videos for our company and I'm like, "Well, we need this, we need that. This is how we're going to experiment and this is how we know if something's working or not." Branding integration, and now it's like content in general. When I was working on that a few years ago, that was like a separate thing, but now it's everything is branded integration. I feel like there's brands are integrating into all this content because they have to, it's so fragmented. Yeah, that's the whole long thing.Stephanie:I love that.Lindsay:[crosstalk] background, but then somehow all came together.Stephanie:Oh my god, I love the background. That's why I was really excited for the show today. When I'm thinking about branded integration, I always think there's still so much untapped potential when it comes to content. We've had a couple people in the show who are essentially creating their own shows and movies and all of that. It's maybe 80% about the story and then they, of course, have their products in there as well and really cool stuff. How do you think about success when it comes to that? When you're talking about now working on that for your own company, how do you know what could be successful, what works? How do you go about approaching that?Lindsay:It's so important. It's so important, and we started from a video. I had selling Bite online. We had a little bit of traction with some vegan and zero waste bloggers. We had a video just go insanely viral on Facebook, and that's really what launched the company. It was like I already knew video was important and now it's literally the whole reason that company exists type thing. For us, we take content and video very seriously. It's not something we outsource. We're an incredibly small team and we still do all of our creative in-house. It's all either being done like the story and everything. Because it's, for me, it's about being able to take sustainable... Like sustainability is an incredibly nuanced topic that has so many details that you have to dig into. But you have to be able to communicate it in a very easy way.Lindsay:I think that it takes a lot of thought to be able to do it in an entertaining, but also truthful and authentic way. I think that's where my background comes in of being able to be like, "How do we take this and basically distill it down into the most digestible way?" We put a lot of time, and I think any brand that's growing right now have all of the things that you outsource. I see it a lot, I'm in a lot of entrepreneurial groups on Facebook and everything, and everybody wants to outsource their creative because it takes so much freaking time. But it's like the last thing you should be outsourcing because it's literally your brand, it's your brand, and it's your vision and it's your voice. I give major props to the brands who are still doing it in-house.Stephanie:Yeah, you're fully leaning into that. You've got your YouTube studio that you're creating. I feel like you're living by that truth, which is great. Let's dive in a bit into Bite Toothpaste Bits, tell me what is the company? I also would love to get into how you started the company? Because I think it's such an interesting story about buying a van and being ready to go all around the country and just having this toothpaste idea and selling on Etsy. I want you to dive into all of that because I think it's really fun.Lindsay:Yeah, and I love, you have done more research than any, I love it, everything in advance. Because I was traveling and I couldn't find an alternative, and it was from that, it was from throwing out those little toothpaste tubes where I was like, "Hey, wait a minute, I have..." When I traveled for my shoots, I had a little go kit. I had my shampoo, my conditioner, my face wash, my body lotion all in a reusable thing. Because I didn't want to use the hotel stuff. I knew that, that was wasteful. But then I was throwing out my toothpaste tube every other week, and I was just like, "This is like a thick plastic. This is not cool." I started looking into alternatives and that's when I learned about all of the harsh chemicals that are in there where it was Sodium laureth sulfate, PEG, artificial dyes and flavors that I don't even use in my body care.Lindsay:I was like, "I'm using this in my mouth. What the heck?" Plus I'm vegan, and I found out that a lot of the stuff, a lot of commercials do these tests on animals and I was like, "Did not know that." So that was the, "Whoa, I want to make sure that this is something that I'm doing everyday twice a day. How can I do this better?" I couldn't find anything that checked all my boxes, and so I started... I think in typical producer fashion, it's like you find one little thing and then you just get obsessed with it and then expand. Originally, I didn't want it to be a tablet, I really wanted it to be like I was trying anything besides a tablet because I didn't want to have to buy a tableting machine.Lindsay:They were even $1,000 and this was supposed to be a hobby, and that seemed pretty obsessive. I was just like, "Lindsay, you have to calm down. You're not going to spend $1,000 on a hobby." I ended up taking online chemistry classes and then talking to dentists and dental hygienists like on Facebook, whoever I graduated high school and college with.Stephanie:I thought you were on Reddit threads trying to figure out the chemistry of toothpaste?Lindsay:Yeah, and I was on Reddit threads trying to figure out how to make drugs because once I realized that I had to make a tablet, I was like, "Shoot, how am I going to make a tablet?" Everything that I was finding online was big industrial like $100,000 machines. No one was giving instructions on how to use the little machine, so I was like, "Who is using these little machines? Who does this?" I was like, "Oh, yeah, drug-Stephanie:Drug dealers.Lindsay:... people who make drugs." I was on Reddit being like, "How do you make ecstasy?" But I'm sure I'm on numerous-Stephanie:Watch list.Lindsay:... FBI watch list, for sure. Well, and even when I bought my machines, I actually had to register with the DEA because the machine that you get, the little TDP-0 and the TDP-5 is so used in these things that they want to track them, which I think is great. But I was just like, "This is crazy. What world am I in?" That was the beginning of that, then figuring out how to make tablets and toothpastes, and it was like, "This was for me." I figured my parents are very supportive, they would use it, and then my friends who also care about the environment, they would. It also needed to be effective. I'm not going to be giving this all to people that I love and then ruining their teeth. It was really there were a lot that was high stakes for me to make sure that it was good. That's how it all started, just in the living room, like bottling everything myself to working this machine.Stephanie:Then you want to go and you buy a van. You want to be going and traveling the country in your van, and I guess the plan was just to sell on Etsy and your friends and things like that. Then what happened?Lindsay:I was fully anticipating, I have a photo of me holding cases of this Vegan Ramen. Because I was like, "I'm going to be so broke. I'm going to start my own business and I'm going to quit my job in TV, where I was making good money and my boyfriend and I are literally going to live in a van." We bought a van, we signed, it was the biggest purchase I'd ever made. We bought this on... It was, what is it? 4/4, no, 8/4, so August 4th we signed the paperwork for this van and started ripping it apart because we were going to turn it into a tiny home. I was in, then I was going to quit my job and we were going to start selling. Then August 8th, Bite went viral, and all of a sudden-Stephanie:Wow, what happened?Lindsay:... it was like the video on Facebook.Stephanie:It was a video?Lindsay:Yeah, so at that was that point, we had the vegan community talking about us and the zero waste community talking about us and women's health had reached out and was like, "Hey, we're featuring women businesses trying to do really cool things. Could you shoot some stuff on your iPhone and tell us about your story and we'll put a video together and we'll probably put it on our Facebook." I was like, "Yeah, no problem." Literally, shot it at 6:00 in the morning before shoot. If you look at it, my hair was terrible, I was barely wearing any makeup. I was on my way to LAX. It was in the bathroom before I went to LAX. Then I didn't hear from them for like a month and a half, nothing.Lindsay:Then on the 8th, my phone started going so crazy with ching, ching, ching, I thought we had gotten hacked or there was an error or something. But it was basically what had happened is that the video had gone up on Facebook a few hours before and just went full steam viral. We went from I had done $6,000 in sales the whole year prior to over 200,000 within a week and a half. It had two million views within the first eight days. Then what happened is that ripple, so then it was like Business Insider wants to make a video and everybody now is calling and I'm just like, "Okay, we're going to make the video, yes."Lindsay:We're just pushing out and then, basically, then what happened too is that the women's health video happened and then it did so well, it got syndicated through Hearst outlets, online outlets. Then it was like Cosmo, Oprah Magazine, all of these started playing it. Then that's, basically, that was the company. That's when we started, and then [crosstalk]-Stephanie:Like that is my van life plan.Lindsay:Well, yeah and I was just like, "Oh my god, we literally moved in with my parents." Because we had already put 30 days in on our house. We had moved and everything and it's just like, "Okay, this is crazy." Yeah, it was definitely, the van, we still have the van. It's beautiful and it's sitting in Pasadena not used.Stephanie:Wow, that's such a fun story. I was getting goosebumps thinking about all these orders coming in. So what was the content in your video? Why did it resonate with people so much? What were you talking about?Lindsay:I think what the was, was just talking about these toothpaste tablets and the problem with toothpaste tubes. I think that was something and it was very much like it showed me in my living room with the machine and it just explained what was in the tablets. There was really nothing special about the video and we've seen other brands in our space try to make it almost frame for frame and it doesn't have the same steam at all. But I think it was just the right video at the right time with the right message. Then I think also is that once that happened, nothing about that video was big. Every single thing is like you go to our website and we've listed out, we're incredibly transparent.Lindsay:Now we're finally getting all of our certifications but we've been doing it even before. It's like palm oil free and all these different things. I think that what it was, is it really just spoke to those people who wanted to be able to make a change and just didn't have an easy way to do it. I think, I guess we didn't even really talk about our product, but it's a dry toothpaste tablet and it comes in a glass jar and then compostable refill pouches. Now that's actually like the refill system is super everyone's doing it in a different way, but we were, definitely, we were the first ones to do it for toothpaste tablets, and one of the first to really get that mainstream in personal care.Lindsay:I think that it was just people were like, "Oh, wait, this makes so much sense." We see comments all the time on it being like, "Why didn't I think of this?" You're like, "Yeah, I know because it's so obvious." But we didn't, no one thought about it, so yeah.Stephanie:That's so fun. Also just your energy and your vibe and that's probably why the video did well. They just see you and they're like, "Obviously, Lindsay is the best." And act surprised.Lindsay:I think maybe I come off very unintimidating and I think people like that. Because it's just I think, and that's something too, and I say this, if I can figure this out, literally, we all can, we all can.Stephanie:Okay, so you have that small scale operation with your tablet maker and then you start getting all these orders. What did the backend look like to keep up with, I think, you said 200,000 in orders in a week or something? What did you do when the prior year you only had 6,000 in sales?Lindsay:It was literally the most stressful point in my entire life. I had, had one panic attack in my life before that and they became a bi-weekly thing and I was just like, "What have I done?"Lindsay:It was insane. Luckily, my boyfriend, who is now my co-founder, we've been together for six years and he has a business background. He was actually running a startup at the time, which we didn't even get into. His startup had to get shut, like they shut down the week that we went viral. Totally unrelated, and so he had a venture backed startup and that was his jam. Then it just sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There's some time it didn't work, and so he shut it down the same week that we went viral. Luckily, he had to-Stephanie:Good timing.Lindsay:He had time on his hands and he knew how to do this, and so basically he started running the war room. I'm sitting there making the tablets still and he was just like, "Stop making the tablets. You will never be able to make these tablets." He's like, "We need to find a manufacturer. We need to do all of these different things." That's what we had to do. We were back-ordered for two months I was sending out these pleading emails to our customers just trying to explain what had happened. We found a manufacturer, we had to find a fulfillment center. I was still shipping these out of my house. Then we also had to get business insurance. We had to basically set up a company immediately, and we did.Lindsay:It was really stressful, really crazy. My mom actually flew in from Virginia to help. Because, at that point, we had, had to leave our place in West Hollywood because we were going to live in the van. Then we moved in with Asher's aunt and uncle, and then my mom flew out to help, and then we moved in with my parents because we were like, "What family can we live with?" Because we had totally screwed this up. When I look back at those times, it was just it was so unexpected and amazing. It felt like I had this, all up until then, I had this baby bird of a company that before it went viral, I'm trying to keep this thing alive and feed it and nurture it and love it.Lindsay:I feel like as soon as we went viral, it was that baby bird was actually a Pterodactyl or something, and it grew and immediately was trying to eat me. We were just like, "How do we make this work?" Now I definitely feel like we're working with the Pterodactyl. We all understand each other, and it's definitely working way better.Stephanie:That's so fun. Did you keep that, like the growth that you had from that first week where you were like, "Whoa, 200,000," and that week, did you continue that growth and where are you guys at today and how big is your team?Lindsay:Yeah, so when that happened, then the next question is how do we sustain this? Because there are so many companies that have the blip and then go off forever. We were like, "We do not want that to happen." Luckily, we had a Facebook pixel set up. We had all of our tracking set up, so we could do retargeting, which is so important. We were able to just keep the momentum. From that, we were able to do Shark Tank, from that we had way more press opportunities happen, and so we were able to just keep feeding this cycle. We ended up having now this, which is a new site. We were the most cared about video in 2019. Those kinds of things just keep on going, going, going.Lindsay:Then in 2020, I was one of Fast Company's Most Creative People in Business, which also then gave us, for the first time, like street cred, real cred in business. It all just fed into each other. We were, in 2019, there were two of us full-time, and by the end of 2020, there was five of us full-time. By now, in 2021, we're nine and we'll probably be 11 by the end of the year. We're keeping it small, but growing.Stephanie:Yeah, very cool. You got an offer from Mark Cuban on Shark Tank, but you turned it down. What was the thought process behind that and what was that experience like?Lindsay:He's so amazing. I can't believe I turned it down for Mark Cuban, an actual billionaire. When we went on Shark Tank, we had our like what we were going to do and what we were going to negotiate. I, basically, was I knew it was going to be a whirlwind and emotional. My background's TV, it's a high pressure situation and I knew that. I was like the only thing that I can do is... Asher and I had decided what our negotiation was before that, and if we went, we couldn't go over. We were like, "If it goes over, we have to say no," and we couldn't get to where we needed to be, and so we had to say no. But it was also we went on there. The name of the game on Shark Tank now, looking back, is definitely negotiate.Lindsay:We went in being like, "We want a partner, so we don't really want to negotiate." We just want to be like, "Hey, this is what we think is fair." But I think that's not really how the Shark Tank thing goes. But it was such a fun experience.Stephanie:Yeah, that's really, really cool. Now where you guys are at, how do you go about advertising and marketing? How do you get in front of new audiences and keep finding... I mean retaining your current customers, but also finding new people? It sounds like Facebook, you guys are there, you're doing re-targeting. What other channels are you exploring and finding success with now?Lindsay:Yeah, that's the game. It's always finding the new ones, and so I actually put a lot of my time into that. We were on TikTok before many brands were taking it seriously. We're on Clubhouse literally all the time. It's so fun, and we're constantly testing out things while optimizing our bread and butter channels. I think that that's something that is really, really important to do. No matter how big or small you are is to just constantly be trying to have the pioneering spirit on the new stuff, and know that you're not going to win all the time. We are constantly learning like, "That didn't work, that didn't work." But it's like you're looking for the things that do work because it really helps, and if you're the one looking for that and you find it for anybody else, it's really good.Stephanie:Yeah, it seems like it'd be hard to vet if a channel... You think about like Clubhouse, TikTok probably has more metrics now. But how do you think about evaluating if that channel is working? Especially, when you're coming from a background in TV and branded content, and I'm sure all the brands were like, "We need metrics," and you had to really tie to different KPIs. How do you think about that now when it comes to, especially, exploring new things?Lindsay:Yeah, for us, it's we try not to let early channels get dictated by that. Because, and that's exactly what you just, if you're tied to making sure that you immediately see the ROI and having the KPIs, you're not going to be able to find those new channels because it's going to be really obscured at first. But it's understanding, for Clubhouse, it's like this is a way that I like to talk to people. It's a very authentic way. Even though there's no way for us to really track anything, I know that it's really important. Because it's important, we're going to be there. Eventually, we'll find a way to track it. Eventually, we'll be able to see that. That's also why it's put in a different bucket.Lindsay:For us, it's not put in with the same Facebook, Instagram, where it's like, "No, we know what that's going to look like." These things, it's we know they're going to be weird and we're going to let them be weird and just explore and have fun. I think that's really important too is like have fun. Not going into it and being like, "This needs to work." Going into it and being like, "How can we make connections? How can we get the word out? How can we learn and teach?" I think that's been really good for us.Stephanie:Yeah, are you finding areas to do product placements in shows? So I'm thinking your packaging is so beautiful and different and I'm just imagining it being in different TV shows or movies, or just places where you're like, "Whoa, what is that?" Especially, with your background, I'm sure you always see opportunities of like, "We should be there."Lindsay:Yeah, well, it's funny too because a lot of my friends, and we were still in LA, so I'm in a team producing in this world, so it's like, or I was. All my friends are on all those shows, so I'm like, "Well, here's some bite for your shoot. Here's this for..." Trying to get just because that's they need it. I know because I was that, and so it's constantly we at least had it behind the scenes, which is super good and important. Because it's the same people on all the different things. But when it comes to, yeah, getting it on camera, we want to, and there's a few companies that actually do that. But we have not explored that yet, but I love the idea. I love the idea of it. I feel like we haven't really, which is pretty ironic considering my background, we haven't touched TV. We've done everything outside of it, but not yet TV.Stephanie:Oh, wow, I'm excited to see you eventually get in there. I was thinking earlier you were mentioning how you had to find manufacturers quickly. How did you find the perfect partner who also had the focus on sustainability and using the ingredients that you wanted? Because I could see, especially, for, to me, the toothpaste industry, I feel like has just started coming around where people are like, "Oh, maybe you shouldn't have fluoride in there. Maybe you shouldn't have all these other chemicals and ingredients and whatnot." Then if you add on the sustainability piece, it feels like a lot to bring to a manufacturer who's maybe like, "I just do Colgate stuff. That's what I do." How did you go about exploring that and finding people who would fit within your company mission?Lindsay:Especially, at the beginning, everyone said no. It was impossible. It was literally me begging people and getting ghosted all the time. Just being like, "Please, I have like..." At that point, we had a lot of money coming in from orders that we couldn't fulfill. I was like, "I have all of this money, can you please just make my product?" No one wanted to do it, exactly. I was just like, "This is I don't know what I'm going to do." Because not only, as a client, especially when we were small, we were a huge pain. We were asking for, and exactly what you said, they had to be using these very specific ingredients that I had bought from Whole Foods and they [inaudible]. We couldn't go to toothpaste manufacturers, we were going to vitamin supplement anchors. Because we're like, "Who the heck makes tablets?"Lindsay:They had never worked with so many agents, they've never worked with really like any of this stuff. Then when I tried to go palm oil free, oh my god, it was like the end of the world. It was like such, and then we were like, "Oh, by the way, not only do we have this incredibly complicated tablet that we want you to make, and it has to taste good, and it has to break apart perfectly, and it has to also be able to withstand being shipped across the country." So it's like this whole thing, "It also needs to be in glass."Stephanie:Yeah, I was going to say the final piece of glass.Lindsay:Oh my god, and that's not something that they do. This is when you go to these manufacturers, it's like a huge, basically, it's a tumbler. They throw all of the plastic bottles into it and it shoots it out onto the line. That's basically how, I mean, you throw like thousands of plastic bottles. Into this big, it's called the scrambler, into a huge barrel basically. The barrel shoots out the plastic and then the pills get put into the plastic on the line and then it gets whatever. Not only did we have a glass, so it needs to be put on, like hand put on. But then we had these aluminum lids that kept denting because, typically, it's like these plastic lids.Lindsay:When they put them on and the machine, basically, goes through these two pieces of foam, that screws the lid on. When it's plastic, it's fine, nothing happens. But when it's aluminum, it scratches and crushes. Now we have to have people hand tightening our breaking thing. We were like, "And by the way, it needs to cost this." We were like it was so hard. Everyone said no. We finally found one that said yes. Then it's now it's like, "And we like working with small businesses." But then we're like overwhelming them with orders because if we just keep on getting orders. It was hard. It's like people are like, "Oh, they're good problems to have." You're like, "Hey, yeah, but they're actual problems still. We still think it's a real problem."Lindsay:I think that, and even our fulfillment company is it was incredibly hard to find a fulfillment company that will commit to not using plastic tape, so hard. When we finally found one who would even... They didn't even commit, they were just like, "We'll try to use paper tape." We're like, "Okay, that's fine." We were with them until we were big enough, and then [inaudible] companies wanted us. So then it was like, "Oh, hey, we know your plastic free. We bought a paper tape dispenser just for you guys." We were like, "Oh, we'll come to you." That's really cool because now it's there's other brands that are smaller than us that can work with that fulfillment center, and they don't have to have the same battle that we did. It was definitely hard, and the bigger you get, the easier it is.Stephanie:How big? What's that tipping point when manufacturers started reaching out to you all?Lindsay:That's a good question. The thing is, is that we're in a good spot now where it's like, but then what happens is that you then start, you still, then start outgrowing where you are. Because we were working with small, now we're at medium, and it's like, "How does that feel?" I think what we're doing this time, and we're learning as we go, instead of going to a bigger manufacturer, we're actually in the process of setting up other manufacturers around the US. Right now, we're literally made right up the street in LA. But we're going to also have one on the East Coast and then possibly one in the Midwest, and that would be the way that we would do it instead as opposed to going through a bigger. We like working with small businesses. We like supporting that, and so I think that's how we're going to go.Stephanie:Yeah, which I think is probably more helpful when it comes to logistics and shipping and being able to route orders and [crosstalk]-Lindsay:Exactly.Stephanie:... orders from your East Coast facility and, yeah.Lindsay:Right, and we don't offer a rush shipping either because that's the highest carbon footprint essentially. So being able to have a... we have our warehouse here in LA, now we have a warehouse in Chicago, so we can still get orders to our customers much faster without having the rush thing, just fricking sweet.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. What issues do you encounter with people who come to your ecommerce website and they're trying to learn about it? What things did you have to solve on there that maybe you weren't expecting? Whether it's around like education or how to use this, or what is this and what things are you working on around the customer journey?Lindsay:Yeah, it's a huge education puzzle because it's something that we brush our teeth twice a day, every day, since we're like four years old, three years old. Asking a customer or asking someone to break that whole concept and use a tablet is a really big deal. Especially, we're all on autopilot when we brush our teeth. It's like who's thinking about that. I think that for us, it's trying to explain, it's not only explaining the problem, like the billing toothpaste tubes and the plastic problem, in general, which thank goodness is getting way more attention now than it was previously, which I think is just so important. It's like not only do we have that education thing, but then we have the actual using of the tablets.Lindsay:So you need to pop it in your mouth, you need to bite down, you want to use a wet toothbrush. Then if people aren't getting the foam that they want, it's explaining like bite down a little bit more. This whole thing, very, very hands-on. Then the final piece of the puzzle is the fact that we're subscription, and the fact that we don't use rush shipping. In the world of Amazon where everyone's expecting their thing to end up the next day, ours takes like a week to get there. But it's we're carbon neutral, we offset the carbon. We purposely choose slower routes because it has the least footprint. It's like there's an education piece every step of the way. But, luckily, we have really curious customers who that's important to them.Lindsay:Instead of being penalized for our stuff getting there slow, typically, they're like, "Oh my gosh," as soon as they realize why, they're like, "We get it and thanks for doing that." I think it's definitely a totally different way and way more work the way that we're doing things. But, in the end, it's the most important thing.Stephanie:Yep, and it sounds like you made a conscious decision to not be on Amazon. What was the thought behind that? Was it the sustainability aspect of it, or you just wanted to keep your customers in a place that you can fully educate and bring them on board, or how did you think about that?Lindsay:Yeah, it's funny because I get this question a lot, and I guess, just for all of the reasons why you would assume for an eco-friendly brand not to be on Amazon, is true. At the beginning, I had to make that choice and I did, and then I just haven't changed it. It's not something that we would like... I'm not saying we would never ever do, I don't see us doing it. But if there was one of the criticisms we get a lot is accessibility because we are only available on our own site. We're not in retail and we're not on Amazon. I've done that for a lot of reasons, control is one of them. I know when it comes out of my site, it's not packaged in plastic, it's not I know exactly where it is. If there's a problem with the order, we can look it up.Lindsay:It's this whole it's I like that hands-on approach, but it's not... You do compromise on accessibility, and so that is something that one of the things that we get is you guys are really trying to do the most good, then why wouldn't you make it accessible to everybody by being on Amazon or being in Target? For me it's like, "Well, I'm not ready to think about that yet. Maybe you're right, I'm not even thinking if that's right or wrong yet, but I'm not ready to even look under that thing." But so as of now, no.Stephanie:Cool. Makes sense. Let's talk about product development because I know you have a new whitening gel product coming out, and I want to hear what that process looked like when you were so focused on your toothpaste bits. Is that how... Yeah.Lindsay:Yes.Stephanie:Then shifting over to starting to create new things and listening to maybe customers and what the market wants. How do you think about developing new products and the logistics behind it and all of that?Lindsay:Yeah, new products are so fun. We listen to our customers, I think, obsessively. I'm constantly going through our DMs, I'm constantly going through Instagram. We have places on the site where we're asking for their feedback. It's so important to me to have that really tight relationship with them, and so that's how we knew. We have our 2K servers that we came out with mouthwash and we came up with mouthwash as a direct response to what they've been asking for. We have our toothpaste, it's really minty, but it's not like pow in your face like commercial minty. We do that specifically because there's a lot of people who we want it to be natural mints. You can really only get it so minty, honestly.Lindsay:But also we want it to be just a lighter mint, but what people are asking for is a really pow in your face solution. We were like, "Okay, let's do mouthwash." That's what our mouthwash tablets were or are, and you basically just pop one into in your mouth, you bite down and they're made with nano-hydroxyapatite, just like our toothpaste tablets, so it's good. Not only does that help to strengthen your enamel, but it also helps, basically, it coats your teeth and it makes them look whiter and brighter. Like not only that, it makes your teeth look nice and shiny. It's like minty, it is like in your face.Stephanie:It turns into a mouthwash from a tablet?Lindsay:Yeah, and that was something that was super fun to make. It has similar ingredients, but then we've also used like... We basically put other things in there that just immediately dissolve in water. When you put it in there and you take a sip of water, it just dissolves super fast and gets all over your mouth. Basically, it turns into mouthwash. That was super fun and that was our customers asked for something like that, and so that's what we made. Then we have our bamboo toothbrush, which has castor bean bristles, which is actually really rare. Most bamboo toothbrushes are made with nylon or polyester bristles. So we did castor bean because it will compost down to plant food essentially.Lindsay:Then same with our floss, it's made of PLA, polylactic acid, which gets a bad rep sometimes because it's one of those industrial compostable things, but it's so thin that it's not like the same as when you get like a cup of this made of PLA. But the reason we get that is the only other option is silk and we're a vegan company, and were like, "We're not going to do that." Also soap, but soap floss broke too easily for me. I use all of our products, so I'm like, "If it's not working for me, it's not going to work for our customer." Then our most recent one is our whitening gel, and so that was something that, again, our customer had been asking about because it's whitening, especially, whether it's the lights or the the trays. Those syringes, like the plastic syringes, not like [inaudible], those syringes and the whitening strips are not recyclable.Lindsay:It's like those are going in a landfill and our customer and like me too, you're doing what's best for the planet, but you also you want to be able to whiten your teeth and you want to be able to wear makeup and do these things. We were like, Okay, how are we going to make this solution?" It was actually way harder than you would think because whitening gel, it expands and contracts because of the peroxide in it. When you put it in glass, it's way less friendly than plastic, which will expand with the gel. It was actually quite a hard nut to crack, but it was really fun and we're the first and only ones to ever do it. We launched it last week and it's just sales have been amazing.Lindsay:That was one of the things too that we're constantly trying to figure out, "How much do we order? How is this going to do?" We're like, "We don't have any data and no one's done this before. How are you supposed to know?" There's a lot of gut thinking that goes into what we do as well.Stephanie:I was just going to ask about how you plan for the order management and how much to even make, and how do you think about that when you haven't created a product like that before?Lindsay:I stress our ops guy out all the time.Stephanie:You're like, "You got it."Lindsay:Yeah, I'm like, "We don't know." We, literally, get on the phone and we're like, "Okay, what do we think it's going to be?" Then try to figure out like what's our lead time and how fast? It's always coming up with plan A and then plan B, and then what's the ripped cord plan? What's the perish shoot of like, "We've sold through this in three days. What do we do?" Type situation. Yeah, we're always coming up with those kinds of things.Stephanie:That's cool. Yeah, I'm excited to try the whitening gel. I want to try this mouthwash. Now, I'm like, "I'm just going to spend the whole day just working on my teeth, trying all the things."Lindsay:You and me both.Stephanie:Where do you want to be in a couple of years? What are your goals? What are you guys focused on right now?Lindsay:That's a good question. I really like where we are now in terms of I want to be doing what we're doing, but just bigger. I think that we've seen some really positive things since we've started this journey. I love basically being the thorn in the side of these big companies. I think one of the things that has happened really recently that people think is scary or bad, but I think is actually incredibly exciting is we've seen the big guys, like big pace, like get into our space. They're starting to come out with their own toothpaste tablets. They're starting to launch these things specifically going after our customer. For me, that's the most exciting thing ever because we, as a small brand, can do a lot but we can't do it all.Lindsay:The plastic problem and the reason we're in this to begin with is because the big guys have made unsustainable choices and have been caught in this race to the bottom, and they've been doing these things. For them to see us basically improving out the market, being like, "Hey guys, this works, hey guys, this works." Then them feeling pressured to have to then be like, "Oh, we're losing part of our market share to this little company. This is super annoying. Okay, fine, we'll release a two-face tablet." Even if they're not doing it for genuine reasons, they're doing it, and that's keeping plastic out of landfills. It's showing that people care about these things and it's going to ultimately help the movement.Lindsay:If we're the ones that are there, it's like, "Cool, you guys released toothpaste tablets." We already have like other products that we're releasing that's going to do the same thing in other spaces. It's like, for me, it's I love that position. If we can just still be there on the fringe and still pushing these big guys and showing out that there's a market, that's exactly where I want to be. I just I hope we're doing this but more.Stephanie:Oh, that's cool. I definitely could see these companies coming and trying to acquire you. Then a lot of those brands, I think, need to garner more trust. Like you said, whether it's genuine reasons that they're doing it or not, if they were to take a company like yours and triumph pulled into their own, it'd be great if they could take your best practices and level them all the way up to the top of the company. Might be hard doing that. I'm trying to even think about like what that integration process would look like, and trying to maintain the clarity behind the message and the brand and the mission and everything. But I feel like they're going to come and just try and scoop you up.Lindsay:I don't know. Well, and the whole point is to get... If we can show that customers want this and then the big guys start doing it, that's when like accessibility no longer because as long as they do it right. If they don't do it right, I will be tweeting about the store [inaudible]. Yeah, as long as like they're... and it doesn't, and that's the thing too is for sustainability it's like, "Yes, I would love that we all want to save the planet and we all want to do this." But also if your company's behaving in a legitimately sustainable way, just because you see that there's a market opportunity, that's the same to me. Because the at the baseline, it's still helping the cause. I think that's where we're really trying to push. I really want that.Stephanie:That's cool. Amazing perspective. I love that. All right, well, let's hop over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, our basic sponsors. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Lindsay?Lindsay:I'm ready.Stephanie:Okay. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Lindsay:Oh my gosh, that's a really hard question.Stephanie:You can take time to think about it though.Lindsay:Yeah, I got a minute. I got one minute.Stephanie:While I drink my water.Lindsay:I guess the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. With that, is that I'm thinking of so many different things. I'm not like, "Oh, I can't think of one thing." I'm like, "I'm thankful for so many different things." I guess the first thing, though, and I think it's because we were just telling the story. This is going to sound so cheesy. I really think the amount of for [inaudible], like first customers gave us at the very beginning when I was sending these emails being like, "I'm so sorry that I have your money and I can't deliver your product for two months." They were like, "It's cool." Like that literally would bring me to tears.Lindsay:I would get those emails and I would be crying on my bed, and Asher would be like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "This customer said it's okay." Because that was a really stressful time. I'm sure there's like way more meaningful things, but that's the first one that came to mind.Stephanie:I love that, yeah, not cheesy at all and that's awesome. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Lindsay:One thing that I don't understand today that I wish I did? I guess like investing or something. The first thing that he said, I was like Bitcoin.Stephanie:We've had people say that.Lindsay:[inaudible] let's bring them down. Just putting too much time on Clubhouse, okay.Stephanie:Yeah. Hey, there's Bitcoin clubs, you can just hop in.Lindsay:Yeah, I know, but I don't think that would help me understand it.Stephanie:You can get up on stage, just ask all your questions and you'll be good.Lindsay:Yeah, I think that was like maybe if I did one understand that actually I should probably think of more meaningful things. But, yeah, I'll say that. I'll say that for now.Stephanie:Okay, cool. Another question, I feed my creativity by doing?Lindsay:Going on a run.Stephanie:Going on a run?Lindsay:Yeah, random, but that I know off of that [inaudible].Stephanie:If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Lindsay:Oh, I love that. I would love to do like sustainable journey type one where it's a... but it would need to be done in a non-boring way, which is why I haven't done this yet. But I would love to have, honestly, I would just love any excuse to talk to Jane Goodall. I would literally start podcasts to just talk to Jane Goodall. Yeah, I would just basically orchestrate a way to have a podcast to talk to her.Stephanie:I love that. We are working on potentially putting together a sustainability podcast and looking for a sponsor right now. Anyone out there you can get in, and Lindsay is ready to hop in and talk to Jane. We already have everything set up.Lindsay:Yeah, any time. Any time.Stephanie:The last question, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Lindsay:What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year? I'm thinking, this is important. I would have said the iOS thing, but we've already been through that and that didn't really do all that much. I would say the incredible amount of brands that are starting up and the competition in the way that that's going and brands'' abilities to adapt and what we were talking about, pioneering those new acquisition channels. I think that will be the biggest make or break moment for a lot of the brands that have popped up over the last two years. I hope that continues to go up and stuff.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a good answer. I do sit there and wonder like how is this going to play out with all these new D2C companies popping up so much competition? How do you stand out? It'll be interesting watching.Lindsay:Yeah, it reminds me of what happened with TV in a way where it was there used to only be those channels, like certain channels. Then, all of a sudden, the internet came and then it was really fragmented. Then there were so many and you're like, "Where are all the eyeballs? How do we get eyeballs?" It's like the same thing, but with brands. It's cool. It's a good thing for the customer, that's for sure.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. Well, Lindsay, this interview has been so fun. You're a blast, of course. We'll have to have you back for round two, hopefully, in the future. Where can people find out more about you and Bite Toothpaste Bits?Lindsay:Yeah, on our website, so it's either bitetoothpastebits or bitetoothpastebits.com. They can come to us, and then on social media is just @bite, so B-I-T-E.Stephanie:Amazing. Can't wait to try everything out and thanks for joining us.Lindsay:Thanks.

One of the hardest things to do in ecommerce is creating an online experience that truly showcases every aspect of a product. This is especially true in the world of luxury goods, where allowing customers to touch, feel and admire the craftsmanship of a product. And at the same time they are expecting an indulgent in-store experience which is tantamount to the story of the brand. Just the in-store experience can serve as the main selling point and create word of mouth like no other.  Throughout his career at places like Brunello Cucinelli and Boggi Milano, Fedele Sforza has had to meet that challenge head-on and figure out a way to create a luxury ecommerce experience that matches and works in tandem with the luxury in-store experience. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Fedele tells us exactly how he’s been able to do just that, and he explains why ecommerce leaders have to be evangelists within a traditionally retail-based environment. Plus, he details how to use data and technology as a window into the needs of your different customers, which you can then leverage to create personalized shopping experiences across channels. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Showcasing Luxury: The in-store experience is a much easier place to showcase luxury items and create a one-of-a-kind, high-end shopping experience. Online, there are fewer ways to showcase craftsmanship or cater to a consumer. But it’s not impossible, and it should be a priority to create a personalized and extravagant experience online that can match or work in tandem with what happens in-store.Friends, Not Enemies: When a company begins to prioritize and invest in ecommerce, often the retail side of the business sees that as a threat. An ecommerce leader’s job is to be an evangelist and show the ways that both retail and ecommerce can work together, share data, and create experiences that cater to customers in a more personalized way. If that collaboration happens, not only will customers have a better experience, but the business will see a boost on the bottom line because sales are being optimized across all channels.Curating Connections: Rather than making a list of channels in which you have to market, start to think about finding ways to form connections and create experiences with customers in the places where they want them. Not everyone is in the headspace to buy something when they are scrolling through Instagram, but they might be interested in purchasing something when they are at an event with friends. You have to find ways to connect with people in all places and in unique ways so that you are top of mind whenever they are actually ready to purchase.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey there, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, your number one stop for all things commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Joining us today is Fedele Sforza, who's currently working as an ecommerce and omnichannel consultant, working for large and small companies. Fedele, welcome.Fedele:Thank you. I appreciate your introduction.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on. I was actually about to namedrop all of the companies you've worked on ecommerce back in the day, but then I was like, "I should just let you do it, because I don't want to botch that." So, could you walk through the places you've been and how you've got to where you are now?Fedele:Yes. Since we started, I've worked for fashion companies in Italy where, as well, we have a lot of them. I started at the company which was in the denim, it's called Dondup. Fedele:Then, I worked for Brunello Cucinelli, which is a big company already known all around the world for its craftsmanship. It's a luxury brand. There, I worked, in terms of creating digitalization in the company, not just ecommerce, not just the website, but also creating a sort of experience of luxury, which is the most difficult thing usually.Fedele:When you have the possibility to create an upper-level experience, you are doing well. It's always difficult to communicate a product like that, with that price point. With all the technologies that we had, we did quite good, trying also to personalize in an artisanal way, which is something a little bit different from a lot of companies now. I did the rollout, also, of the entire ecommerce worldwide, using Salesforce Commerce in that case. We connected also the part of the service and the Marketing Cloud for the automations. There, we had also the part of omnichannel, which means, in that case, return in store, pick up in store, and all these kinds of activities.Fedele:I worked for Aspesi, which is a small company, medium. Core business was the outerwear, female luxury outerwear. So, the company was starting to adapt themselves to the commerce, selling on line, ecommerce. In that case, I had the opportunity to create a sort of alignment with, also, all the marketplaces, like, for example, Farfetch and also some other retailer online, which is the most difficult thing, when you would like to find a balance between your buyer to consumer sell, and the other kind of selling, like from marketplaces and direct to consumer retail as well.Fedele:And then I went to Boggi Milano. For me, it was a good opportunity to experience very well the omnichannel part, Boggi to run this store around the world. The great thing was trying to connect a single view of the customer in order to give the same experience everywhere.Fedele:I think the possibility to use all the digital platform was very good for me. I think that was a great experience in order to understand how to create a loop in the journey of the customer, and that's Boggi Milano. Then, I decided again to jump from the place. I take the opportunity to move by myself after a while, because I had a lot of requests from companies to help them to create a sort of next-level image online and giving them the possibility to create their business online; which is something especially for a startup that seems difficult, but actually, after a while, a startup is sometimes better also than working in a complex ecosystem. It's starting from scratch. And now, here I am.Stephanie:That's awesome. I mean, obviously you've had a ton of experience. I want to hear a little bit about what the landscape looks like in Italy when it comes to ecommerce. Because a lot of these companies you've worked for ... I mean, Boggi Milano, I think, has been in business since 1939. You're tackling companies that have been around for a long time, probably have certain things set a certain way. What does the ecommerce landscape look like in Italy, where maybe it's different kind of challenges than what we would see in the US?Fedele:I think that Italy is now getting faster on the road of innovation. I think pushed from this situation probably. What I saw is that usually you arrive in companies, especially in the clothing companies, where there already some systems that you should try to adapt in a sort of, let's say, your way to work with that kind of processes. Fedele:In this way, I think that people understood the importance of the ecommerce and not just like a window, because that's something very old, but like something that it's a sort of place where you see all the results of the work of the entire company. I think it's not just a part of the brand image, but also of the strategy of a brand, the positioning, etc.Fedele:Usually, especially in the companies where you find a lot of craftsmanship, you need to adapt the experience that you have online. Especially in companies that are in the luxury, you need to show to the customers that part of the experience. Especially in the image online, sometimes you are struggling. In this case, you try to find the way to adapt the model that, for example, store managers are using into the stores, for example, which is something that is trying to do storytelling. And that's something that you bring also online, not just to put in some contents into the online store or the website, but also understanding that maybe if you can try to personalize each kind of content for each kind of customer.Fedele:For example, I had the opportunity to, especially in the last year, use content specific for [cross-saling]. When you know already that the customer is more into, let's say, trousers, it's better if you stop communicate them shirts, for example. Maybe they already have a shirt, no? In that case, you can use the marketing automation to figure some email directly to them. Maybe you understand, for example, that they don't like to receive emails. Maybe you use another channel, like it could be ... Another channel in advertising, or it could be ...Stephanie:Texting.Fedele:... For example, texting. Or, maybe, I think the next level will be something that is more direct. Because especially in the luxury stores, usually each store manager [inaudible] of a customer. And the same way, if you imagined ecommerce like someone that is an ecommerce manager, like someone that is managing customers in terms of information, and maybe helping them directly find something they really want. Not pushing them with email. We receive already tons of email, no? It's better to find a personalized way.Fedele:For example, in this case an idea could be live shopping, personal shopping, which is something very interesting that probably everybody will adopt in the future.Stephanie:Yep. The one thing I want to circle back to is around selling luxury goods, because we haven't talked too much about that on the show and I want to hear how you approach that from an ecommerce perspective and how you actually showcase luxury. What are you doing when it comes to the ecommerce presence and maybe what things are you pulling from retail to support that, or lessons that you're pulling into ecommerce to show that this is a high-value item, it's worth the money, here's why?Fedele:The first thing that ... I know that could be obvious, but it's the first thing to do usually, is to create digital assets that are really powerful. For example, in one case in Brunello Cucinelli, if you go to the website, you can see that images on the product are very well-done. They are not just normal images like, for example, could be in a normal platform that you find online everywhere. They are trying to give the projection of the product, the quality of the product, for example. Especially for a product that is maybe more than 1000 euro, it's important to understand the feeling.Fedele:Another thing that is related the image of the brand, in this case, is also the lifestyle. You are not just selling, for example, a shirt, a sweater, or knitwear, whatever: you are selling an outfit, you are selling a part of the experience of touching that kind of item. Usually, with this part of the image, you help the customer following them through the services that you have the possibility to contact them. For example, understanding what kind of item they like more and maybe during the session of purchasing, following them, through a chat, for example, that could be interesting. Understanding the pages that they are maybe not browsing and maybe skipping and understanding better when they talk.Fedele:I think one part of this could be the conversational part, also, if we want to resume it. This would be something that will be stronger and stronger, probably, in the future. This is something that usually helps a lot, like storytelling directly, which is live. And not just that, because I think that also the possibility to give the emotional [inaudible], someone that is talking to you, it's something also important. We see mainly, in the websites that you can browse actually, people that maybe they are going around without maybe purchasing, just browsing, browsing, browsing.Fedele:The most effective thing that I used usually was putting conversational chat, could be, for example, that maybe as [inaudible]. It means that, for example, understand that you are in the product page that you would like to buy and maybe in that case there would enter an agent that could be not just a service agent, but a personal shopper, which is something that knows the product, for example, and could tell you something more. Not just giving you information about shipping or returns: something more that is related the product, specifically.Stephanie:I was just going to ask about that. I could see, for a luxury brand, you can't just put bots and conversational bots on the website: people going there are probably looking for that in-person, curated experience that they would experience when going into a retail location of maybe a Boggi Milano. How do you think about having customer service on the website that kind of replicates it, to something that they would experience when they go into the store as well?Fedele:Probably will be a sort of mix of the two things. One of the things in the future that we will see is that probably people in the stores will help the selling online. Let's imagine how it in a technic way could be a chat that is popping up and when this figuration knows that probably there is a person that is a hot lead, in that case maybe there will be someone in the store that knows that this is the customer, maybe logged in. And in that case, there will be ... Or one person that in the store is using, I don't know, an iPad or maybe a smartphone or whatever, understanding the customer and giving him all the information that he needs about the product, for example. So, there will be a sort of, also, optimization of the sale agent or people that are standing into the stores, for example, merging all the information about the product and information about the customer in this case. Fedele:But regarding this typing of selling was called before show- rooming, was something like that. I think that more and more it will be applied to all the kind of customer. The most difficult thing is also approaching, for example, to a kind of customer that is not digitalized. In that case, no ... In this case, maybe the best thing is trying to contact the customer, helping them maybe to book an appointment and giving the possibility to going to the store and maybe after that trying to give them the possibility to try the selling online.Fedele:One of the things that probably we will see in the future is also the part that stores should not be anymore warehouses, just warehouses, but will a sort of experience point. In this case, you will merge probably what you have online with the offline.Stephanie:How are you advising brands to do that now, especially when maybe things are starting to open back up? I know you're talking about having these pop-up shops and maybe a guide shop you can go in and try stuff on, but what are you advising around how to think about it over the next year or two, of what's going to work?Fedele:Talking about this part and what I was saying, for example, one of the struggling points is the warehouses should be all around. You cannot have just one store with this item. Probably, in the future warehouses will be hybrid, let's say fluid, where all the customers could see online what they had; probably, also, into the store. For example, one thing that could be, and I experience that is very helpful into the store, is having an iPad with the entire catalog, let's say a replication of the ecommerce, somehow. In this way, selling what you have not in the store, but selling what you have into the online warehouse. Online means everywhere, probably.Fedele:I think that the best thing is not having a stock that is stopped in one store, but a stock that is moving from one to the other store, in order to have the largest possible SKU numbers in terms of stock options. I think that another thing is the training of people into the stores, for example. Giving them the possibility to understand that behind the digitalization there is not the cannibalization of the store. There is something that could be another way to sell something that you probably don't have in the store. It's another way to, let's say, something that would become a sale agent 3.0 or 4.0; I don't know how many numbers we are having now. Helping them to become more tech-advanced.Fedele:Especially in Italy, when you go in the store, maybe you see people too much connected with the store, with what they have into the store. But they are not thinking that maybe they could understand if a customer is a loyal customer, what kind of item he bought, what kind of size preferences he has. It's something that is happening already probably into some online stores, but not yet in everywhere.Fedele:One thing that I will see, next trend will be ... Sorry, if I say the name is [digitalization]. When the store becomes digital. Especially in Italy, I saw a couple of stores that are starting to become more and more like that. It's like Adidas and Nike, for example. They are using a lot of part of NFT, virtual reality, and all these kinds of aspects that will be helpful for each person that is going into the store. There are a lot of possibilities now; I think that our role is to help brands to start to approve these kinds of digital assets and putting in the store to give you an extra experience.Stephanie:Yeah, I was just going to say that it seems like especially for luxury brands, figuring out what kind of experience your customer wants and what's going to draw them in ... I'm even thinking, back in my California days, there was this one little strip that was like a street and all the shops opened up, and they all had wine, so of course I'm going to be there, and appetizers. And I remember the different kind of events: some of them have bands, and it was all very unique depending on what the items were and what they were selling, but it left a really good impression. And every year I'm like, "Oh, I need to go back there." I forget what it's called, whatever the name is. But I would go back there because of that experience and then have really good brand awareness. "Oh, that was the one that had the really good cheese board and wine, and had the band playing." Or whatever it was.Stephanie:How do you think about luxury brands creating events like that and experiences that match what their customers want? Or maybe creating partnerships that they weren't doing before this?Fedele:I think that one part of this kind of asset that we're still exploring is the content personalization. Actually, I didn't see yet, for example, a website that is adapting to what you really would like to see. When you have your experience, for example, it's like, for me, I like wine, too. When I go into wine stores, they know that I like strong wine, something [inaudible] with a full body. And the sales assistant knows already that probably I don't like some other kind of wines.Fedele:This is something that probably in the retail is working, and the retail will having extra information with the data, through the iPad or whatever. Already there are in place these kind of things. The good opportunity for the stores online is the fact that they have data probably and they maybe just need to convince a little bit more to have the navigation logged, for example. But they are not yet adapting the experience of browsing into the store with the content personalized for each one.Fedele:I think that the next big thing is this one. Not just the content that are, let's say, set with some rules, already preset, but something that works with artificial intelligence. There are already in place some tools and platforms that are working in this way. I talk about Salesforce, because it was one of my experience. Salesforce ...Stephanie:Tell me more about that.Fedele:... As Einstein and the next best option, for example. Well, already has data, already has data about the navigation, already has data about the content that the customer would like to see and the content that they skipped. Already has data regarding the purchasing. Already has all the information. What you need to adapt is the system [inaudible] and front-end and back-end as well that create this kind of experience that is unique for you, removing all the other information and images, whatever that probably that customer doesn't want in general.Fedele:This is also very powerful, because think about conversion rate optimization. What is the higher way to create better conversions? Removing all the friction, removing all the aspects that the customer doesn't want. All this information already exists. I think we are still missing the real personalization of the contents. There are still people, probably, that they don't like, they want just to browse. There are stores that are full of these non-personalization possibilities. There is place for everyone, probably.Stephanie:Yeah. I don't know much ... I know Salesforce. Commerce Cloud has Einstein, but tell me about when you were thinking about implementing AI, especially for a company with maybe quite a few products. What did that look like? What were you trying to solve and then what did the process look like to actually get that going? And then what kind of results did you see? Kind of like a mini case study.Fedele:I think that the ... For example, in case of Salesforce, let's think about one possibility, which is [inaudible] of the product, of prediction of the, "You may like this." Usually when you go on the website and you see, "You may like this," usually is not something that you like.Stephanie:Yeah, like, "No, I'm good, actually. I don't need a toothbrush along with my t-shirt."Fedele:Yeah! I think that two parts of the possibility of content personalization are these, in specific way in the products: you have all the data that helps you, for example, to understanding what kind of item would like this person. In that case, you can really give personalized content that you could like. But not just that, because it's not just into the website. Also, connecting, for example, the marketing information, let's say Marketing Cloud in this case, could give you the possibility to send email, which is the channel that we all use, sometimes we abuse, but more personalized. Not just putting any item. No, you find the new collection. Oh, okay.Fedele:Could be better to say, "In the new collection are the items that you always looked for. It's this." And maybe, "Wow, you understand it is this." Okay. Not enough. You can connect those to the automation to, for example, advertising with the personalized content. I had the opportunity to see some tools like, for example, I don't want to say the name. But there are some tools that are working very well already with the banner personalized into the content. They personalize the image and also the tone of voice and also the copywriting in the banner.Stephanie:Wow, that's cool.Fedele:Yeah, it means that you can see really ... For example, I saw some luxury brand that they used an impersonal form to talk with people. Maybe sometimes they could understand that a personal form in [A/B] testing could be better. In this way, maybe they could perform this kind of A/B testing using personalized content, like, for example, in the banner and whatever.Fedele:There are already these kinds of aspects and it could be very good. Another point that we saw before, for example, could be that maybe this person is browsing every day, because at the moment stores are closed. He's browsing every day and probably is really interested in one item. Could be maybe if you try to push one of the sale agents to talk with him, if he knows him, and understand in some way if he needs help buying online, for example. Or maybe convincing that you could buy; maybe you can also return. Or maybe, "You take it and when we reopen the store and you try the other size, whatever."Fedele:There are already these touchpoints. They're important for each company to put all together these touchpoints. Sometimes, in my experience, I found a universe when you arrive. Data everywhere.Stephanie:I was just going to say. A lot of companies we've talked to, it does feel like things aren't very connected. I mean, how you're saying you take Salesforce Commerce Cloud, then you plug in their Einstein, then you plug in Marketing Cloud, and you've got this whole suite where the data's all talking to each other, informing ad campaigns and marketing campaigns, and it all comes together. A lot of companies we've talked to, like you said, it's a universe and marketing team's not talking to the tech team, who's doing the ecommerce implementation, who's not talking to the ads team. It definitely seems like there's a lot of room over the next year or two to bring everything together and maybe reduce the tech stack so it's more uniform and connected than trying out all these one-off tools here and there that create individual databases that are hard to tap into.Fedele:Yes, I think that, as I told you before, our role sometimes is to be an evangelist into the company. Really, sometimes is also the more human part of being mediator in all the roles. One of the difficulties that I found in my previous experience is also, for example, talking with the production department or talking with the retail departments. Sometimes, especially for the ecommerce, we were seeing we are against the retail. Now that they understood that we are servicing them, because we are the biggest window, if we think about a website. They are understanding that we could also collaborate somehow.Fedele:For example, some data that we are collecting, they could be helpful also for the production team. Sometimes they come to us and they tell us how many views has this product, to understand, how many returns we had with this item. "We had too many." Okay, maybe next season we don't do this. And this will adapt, also, the model of a production system, which is something very powerful, actually. So, we are a sort of mediator sometimes, because we are in this ...Fedele:And when I talked about a digital mindset is something that would be really helpful. Also, for the human resources, starting to find people that are really mediators, but also they are innovators somehow. Also, in a little part, a little digital specialist or whatever. But at least they know what they are doing. This is something that is happening now: we are forced to stay at home and we use a lot of technologies devices. Maybe my father now is more evolved than me, probably, somehow, when he was condemning me about staying a lot on the computer, but now is working more than me. He's using digital more than me sometimes.Stephanie:A fast-changing world. A lot of people are jumping on that maybe wouldn't have otherwise. The one thing that I have started to think about is, because things are moving so quick and we're all at home and behind screens, I think there's an area where we can lose touch with the human experience and what people are seeking when they go to a retail store. I'm even thinking about when you were saying about how someone's browsing every day on the website and maybe a customer service person should reach out.Stephanie:But imagine if you take it a step further and you come back the next day and it's the same one. Like, "Oh, Stephanie's here again." "Hey, welcome back. Any new questions today? I know we talked about this yesterday." But thinking about why do you go into retail? Sometimes it's fun to see the same person, where they have context with you, where they know what you maybe already bought in a more personal way. Same coffee shop person, where it's like, "That's my girl! She always knows how to make my coffee." But thinking about how to bring those kind of experiences online, I think, is something that's maybe been missed because we've all behind screens and not as much in-person interactions, where we're kind of forgetting, "What do we seek when we go in person and want to go into a store and meet someone, and talk to them?"Fedele:I think that I did the thesis of my master's degree that was regarding social media in this case, social media relationships that matter. I think that the point is really knowing the customer. Think about back in the years, we started to talk about not anymore the brand at the center, but the customer at the center. I think we like to put the customer at the center, but at the same time we like to put, especially in the fashion sometimes, the brand image of the brand at the center and then the customer. I think this way we need to put again the customer at the center, understanding whatever he likes and creating this better relationship with them.Fedele:What you told is something that is really important, especially considering what is happening in the stores. I think probably the other point is not creating a service theme, but a personalized system theme, so people that they ... Like is happening in the stores, a portfolio of customers where they really study the customers. Also, in my experience, especially in the startup, I start really looking at each order that is coming from each person that is coming to understand what they do, what they like. This is good for me because it helps me to understand where I should improve something and how, maybe, I could talk with them. What is the tone of voice? What kind of aspects I should touch when I talk with them?Fedele:This is something that is not just a segmentation, but this is something that is more related fluidify the relationship that you have. In the past, I think we had too many [inaudible] behind one cluster, another cluster, etc. Now, I think that with the artificial intelligence, we have more possibility to predict some kind of aspects regarding the customer and doing some actions that are really being connected with him. I see one thing that could be strange in one of my previous companies, for example, we used to try to do some kind of upselling writing after looking at the order, understanding that we, for example, sending an email with the followup. "We are preparing your order. We see that you bought this and this. We would like to thank you, blah blah blah, and we would like to suggest this kind of matching." And there's also written, handwritten sometimes, whatever it is. And giving him, also, the possibility to, for example, see the outfit preview through the email, whatever it is.Fedele:Usually it happened that the customer starts to understand that you really are focused on him. He didn't not just buy online an item; he bought something that is an experience personalized.Stephanie:Oh, I like that. I don't think I've ever had an email ... At least from where I buy. Maybe I don't buy enough luxury things; I definitely don't. But maybe that's why I haven't seen that, where it's like, "Oh, you bought this shirt, here's a pair of pants that go well with it, and shoes." I've never seen that level of personalization, which I actually think would be helpful, instead of just, "Oh, hey, Stephanie. I'm going to personalize your name and what you bought." Going that extra level to be like, "Here's how to complete the outfit," or, "Here's how to actually wear it," or what to do with it. I don't know. That's way different.Fedele:It's a sort of personal shopping. It means that you have people that really knows the product, knows the collection, knows everything of that. You need also a sort of human touch, and also for who you can do that or not.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). And not making it just be the stock image that was on the website. Like, there was already an outfit; I don't want to see that one. I want to see something that feels like it's custom to me and not just what the model was wearing. Because if I wanted that, I would've bought it at the time.Fedele:Yes. Also, this was personalized in one case. For example, taking a picture from the showroom, we had the possibility to stay in the showroom where we had all the items of the collection that we are putting online, and matching directly and taking a picture and sending through the email. Then, in the followup, you can also write, manually sometimes is also nice, especially when we complete the order, we were putting something had written. And this is more personalized, I think.Fedele:Well, I think that this part of personalization that is transmitting something that is not just technology is very important for the luxury and especially for the fashion, etc.Stephanie:Yep. We had on a company called called Handwrytten, spelled with a Y instead of an I. It was interesting hearing about the level of increased conversions with handwritten notes coming from the brand. It's, I think, especially important for luxury. But then I also wonder, is everyone going to start getting handwritten notes because now it's easier to get those digitized and look handwritten, and maybe it's not going to be something that people want anymore? I don't know. It feels like if you abuse something too much, people get used to, "Okay, now everyone can get handwritten letters." And it looks like writing, now maybe it's saturated the market in a way that customers don't want that anymore.Stephanie:It feels like a really quickly evolving area, but maybe still an opportunity there.Fedele:Yeah, sure. And think about also the reduction, for example, spamming, which is something that is a part in this case. You increase the conversion rate, but you decrease also the losing time in doing things that probably are not working. We have a KPI, so we know already that there are some people that really don't care about emails anymore. So, it's something that maybe we should understand if there is another channel. Maybe this channel could be also sometimes a postcard.Stephanie:Yep. Are you experimenting with any new channels right now at some of the startups and larger companies that you're advising?Fedele:Not yet. I would like to, for example, in one kind of brands I'm working with, which is wine, it's a winery.Stephanie:Perfect.Fedele:I would like to give the possibility to have an extra assistant, which is, for example, a sommelier [aporte], which is someone that is giving you really a possibility to choose the right wine for you, for the right moment. Maybe connecting the loop, because they offer also the part of wine-tasting in the winery. But maybe at this point, you cannot do. I think that giving the possibility to, for example, give an experience that could be live, the first step, it's important, but also with this kind of ... The video, of talking directly with the person could be helpful.Fedele:And then, in the next touchpoint, maybe also creating a sort of relationship between the two. And that's a part that I'm working with. Well, I think that especially in the items that I'm working now, I work with another company which is a small startup, but is innovating a lot. We are doing spirits, uncommon, totally uncommon, which is made by Selvatiq plants, for example, botanicals. It's very difficult to communicate to the customer the differences between a gin that is industrial and a gin that is more artisanal, for example. Or a soda that is more artisanal.Fedele:Especially when you ... I felt, when I talk with people and I explain sometimes, when I had the opportunity to give the possibility to try them live, I saw that they really experienced more and more, and they buy directly. Also, some friends, that they say, "Okay, they would never buy." No, when they experience, they understand that there is something good behind and the storytelling helps a lot in this case, so it's something that helps.Stephanie:I like that. I had a really good wine experience last night, now that we're on the wine topic. Have you ever heard of this wine called 19 Crimes?Fedele:19 Crimes? No. I will check it.Stephanie:Everyone on the show always talks about, you can't just put technology on something. You don't want to just apply the newest and greatest things. "Why do you need VR and AR right now?" And everyone always says that. But last night, I got these two wine bottles, 19 Crimes. I bought it because it had Snoop Dogg on the label. I didn't know why, I was just like, one had Snoop Dogg on it and one had some very old timey figure on it. I was like, great, apparently these were criminals, that's why they're on this wine called 19 Crimes.Stephanie:And this wine company has an AR app, an augmented reality app, and you hold your phone over top of the wine label and then the figure jumps onto your table and starts making this whole scene about why this guy is a criminal, what he did, and it's just this whole world on your table and he gets pushed into the wine bottle. It was amazing, it was such a cool experience. Such a conversation starter, even people in my house who don't drink wine, like my mother-in-law wanted to come, look at it, see what was happening; she wanted to see Snoop Dogg talking, which I'm like, "Do you even know who he is? I don't know what he's about to say; you might want to cover your ears. But it was a really, really cool experience.Stephanie:It kind of made me think a little bit differently about where technology can be applied to create an experience like that that you're going to talk about. Now I want to go back and buy all the wine bottles that this brand, 19 Crimes, has because I'm like, "I want to see all the stories," what kind of AR experience they've built around this. It was awesome. Everyone should go check it out.Fedele:Well, I think that this is important for the future, especially in the everywhere world, not in terms of ... You were experiencing something that was online at your home. But could be in the store, could be everywhere. Most important part now that we need to understand that people are really everywhere and they don't want to talk about anymore channels, for example. But you need to understand where they would like to have that kind of experience, could be virtual reality or whatever. But it's something that is connecting in the same moment where they really would like to buy something, for example, or maybe know something, which is super important for me.Stephanie:Oh, I like that. Not all about the channels; you have to think about where your customer's enjoying it. Like you said, I don't want to be on social media, I don't want to be posting pictures on social media. It's like if you're having wine with your family or friends or whatever, you kind of want to be present there and only take out your phone if it's for maybe something that you can share together and not just be staring down at your phone and being a hermit. Sometimes I do that too, but ...Fedele:Yeah, also this point of the digital detox, let's say something like that. That could be something that is not just one person that is looking at his phone, because probably we did in this last year, will be important in the future. What you told is nice, because you shared something that you saw. It's not someone that is by himself watching something, but sharing. And this is also a way to network the product, for example, in this case watching on the side of the bottle, sorry if I go back, also on that.Fedele:I think that we are starting to find these kind of new elements, but it will be something that we will approach in the immediate future.Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. All right, we have a couple minutes left and I want to make sure we don't miss the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less, one minute or less, to answer. Are you ready?Fedele:I'm not ready.Stephanie:You're not ready? Okay, take a few deep breaths, shake it out of it. All right, we'll do the hardest one first and then it'll be fun ones after. Okay. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Fedele:I think that in the future there will be more and more personalization. We need to understand where are we and where we could go with our product, and stopping pushing people with just emails or whatever and understanding really what is behind each customer and adapting each content to each customer on the channel that is wherever it is. Everywhere channel, I would like to talk about. I think that data and blockchain also will be also the next big thing, especially in a loyalty process will be something that could be really interesting to be early adopter, probably.Stephanie:Oh, that's good one. I need to bring on a blockchain expert for retail and ecommerce.Fedele:Sure.Stephanie:That'd be a good one. Let me know if you have-Fedele:I'm working with one of the companies on something regarding the blockchain and I'm experiencing something that could be really interesting, especially ... For example, we talked about the wine [online] loyal system that is with a blockchain model adapted to it. It's super interesting. I think that somehow there's still someone that is not pushing, probably that is the economic model that we are touching. We need gloves to touch it, but I think that will be the next big thing as well.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. I'm a big blockchain advocate. So, you advise all these companies, you've worked with a ton of companies over the past decade or more: how do you stay on top of ecommerce? What are you reading? What you newsletters are you subscribed to? How do you stay on top of the industry?Fedele:I like to browse in general. I like a lot when I see content written by people that are experts in the topic. For example, I have many possibilities to look around online. [inaudible], for example, is one of the platforms that I like, because usually I find some genuine content. Also, well-written, for me. In fashion, there are many others. I always liked, for example, Business of Fashion, which is a website, super powerful. They do an annual report with all the information and I like also to understand what is the next trend, for example in this case, on fashion, technology, whatever.Fedele:Well, now I'm focusing more on the sustainability, to be honest. Not just for greenwashing, because it's not at all. I think these are mainly the ways that I find out. I experience also somehow with, in my case, I use a lot Spotify. I like podcasts through Spotify to listening maybe when I'm doing something else. I like to understand. And one way that I use also is students in my courses at university, because they are really somehow asking you something that is the next thing what is, you know? Sometimes I use the dialogue with them. So, also, networking directly with people will be also one good thing.Stephanie:Oh, I like all this. That brings me to my next question, then. You're a professor, like you just mentioned: what is your favorite lesson that you're teaching your students?Fedele:Usually, in my case, they like to understand more about the online experience in general, understanding more, like you asked before, how you sell luxury online, for example. And how you can transmit the artisanal projection of an item online. For me, these are the parts. Now, usually they are really focused on the digital, because I usually teach in a university that is in poly design, which is a design university, and they are really focused on understanding what will be the store of the future, for example. So, giving all the dots to connect, it's a good thing.Stephanie:Awesome. Well, Fedele, it's been awesome having you on. I've loved learning about the world of luxury and omnichannel and everything else. Where can people find out more about you and your work?Fedele:Thank you very much. For me, it was really nice to talk with you, especially crossing the idea between US and Italy, and giving the next big trend the possibility to go up.Stephanie:Yep, yeah. I've loved having you on. It's been a blast.Fedele:Thank you very much.Stephanie:Thanks. And then, Fedele, I would just say, "You can find me here." Wherever you want people to find you and we'll splice it back in to the audio. But if you want to say, "You can find me on LinkedIn or Twitter," just say that real quick and Hillary will put it back into the audio.Fedele:Sure. You can find me in LinkedIn and Instagram, if you like pictures, because I like to take photos. And, well, you can find the brands I'm working with, which is, for example, Selvatiq and there are many others. Well, I'm online, so you find me with my name and surname, usually, Fedele Sforza.

Let’s be real, talking about sex makes people uncomfortable. But it shouldn’t! And that’s one of the driving principles behind Maude, a modern sexual wellness brand that is disrupting a taboo industry and making sexual health more a part of the overall health and wellness conversation. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I chatted with the founder of Maude, Éva Goicochea about how she built her company with a combination of excellent content, a growing and vibrant community, and a go-to-market strategy with patience and empathy top-of-mind. Éva also gave us some insight into the lessons she’s learned from bringing Maude into the retail market, and how she goes about assessing customer acquisition and community engagement. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Getting To Market: Ideate quickly, go to market strategically. Get to know who your customers are, what they want, and what problems they need solved before pushing a product to market. Not only do you need to take into account what your customers want, you also need to consider the associated logistics and cost that product will have to your business. You have to decide if your company is the one that should be creating it and whether the market size is big enough to jump through whatever hoops there are to actually bring that product to life.Content is King: Obviously, businesses want to sell goods on their websites. But it may actually be a better strategy to build a site that is less transactional and more content-driven and educational. In doing so, you can attract a casual audience, who are more likely to turn into buyers when they are already on your site.Bidding Wars: When wholesaling or working with retailers, a unique problem arises if those retailers try to outbid your brand for keywords and search terms in order to win more customers. Whether or not to fight to win those bidding wars comes down to assessing the value of the customer acquisition method. Is the customer more valuable as a native buyer or do you get the same or more value by having your wholesale partner see success selling your product?For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, we have Eva Goicochea, the CEO and founder of maude.Éva:Hey, it's nice to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on. I feel like this is gonna be a very intimate fun conversation, the first of its kind, no puns intended. I would love that before we dive into maude and what it is, I always like to start with the beginning stories. Tell me a bit about what you did before founding maude.Éva:I'm going to try to tell the short version because I think it all connects.Stephanie:Perfect.Éva:I studied advertising in New York in the early 2000s, very analog time. I went back to California, became a legislative aide in healthcare, and then moved to LA and went back into marketing, and worked with a lot of brands, but then I was one of the early employees at Everlane. I think that those two experiences really shaped how I got to maude, and so I started working on maude in 2015 after leaving Everlane in 2013, and here we are.Stephanie:Awesome. What did the early days of maude feel like? Where did the inspiration come from? What is maude? Tell me about how the early days were back then.Éva:Maude was born out of this conversation I had with some friends of mine, who were also founders in a business with me called Tinker Watches. We started talking about sexual wellness and like, "What is the industry that has just never been changed?" This is one of them at least for the modern consumer. It's changed many times, but I think to the modern consumer. I was like, "This is the idea I've been waiting for between the healthcare background and what I thought I would pursue, which was a master's in public health and consumer brands. This is what I want to work on."Éva:Everyone's like... I can't tell my grandma that I sell condoms. I'm like, "I'm going to do this," and so I started working on it. The early days were very similar to COVID for most people, which was heads down at my house working on this idea, not ever feeling super connected to the outside world, and then here we are many years later. It's something that's just grown a lot.Stephanie:That's amazing. What kind of products do you offer now?Éva:We launched in 2018. We had condoms, lubricants, a vibe. Then later on that year, we had a massage candle. Now, the business is about 75% sex essentials, and 25% back and body products which are meant to be used with a partner or alone. That's the profile of the business now, but we launched with these four products saying, "Customers should be able to go to one place and find them," and that really resonated.Stephanie:That's amazing. I mean, how do you even view the landscape now? Has it changed since you've got into it, or is it till the same? What does that look like now?Éva:So much. I mean, on one hand, you see copycat brands, and that's always a little frustrating. But at the same time, I think it's indicative of what is happening in the space. I think it's indicative of what's happening in the space, which is that people are starting to ask for sexual wellness to be considered a part of personal care and reframe that way. They want to see products positioned in that way so that they can shop with the same comfort you can when you're dealing with something like beauty. That's what you're seeing.Éva:We're a brand that fits right there, because we have these products that are bath and body and then also sex. It's really interesting. I think you're going to start to see the products. I mean, I know you are because I know where we're going in terms of retail, but you're going to start to see the products in places that maybe you wouldn't expect.Stephanie:I mean, I'm thinking about even a couple years ago, it's like if you're going to get something, you're going to the back aisles of a CVS, and you're like, "Is anyone looking?" Ka pow. Grab it real quick, run, and check out. They'll look away while they're paying for it. There is this stigma around any items in the sexual wellness industry, but I like how you guys are changing that, especially around your content for the company.Éva:Thank you.Stephanie:You have these amazing products, and you have... It's nice because you don't have a ton of products. You can either have this, this, this, which I think is important especially in the early days of changing this industry. But how do you approach it from a content perspective that brings in new people like I was just describing who maybe would be like, "Well, I'm not going to buy this stuff online?"Éva:I think it was... It was really this choice that we made early on. We had the blog, which is called The Modern from day one. The idea was can you build a world around the product, because we knew we weren't going to have many products. We didn't want to be an over sorted brand, and people were reading it. They just kept consuming it. Then we started to get feedback, and then that turned into seeing what was working and what wasn't. Now, it's been built out into these three verticals. One's called the essentials, which is for an 18 to 25-year-old audience. The modernist is 25 to 45, and then the golden is 45 and up.Éva:It's grown so much. I think we get more traffic on the modern on the product side of the site to be quite honest with you. That's probably because we produce so much content, but it's been great. I think it really positions the brand in the right way, and we're showing content that we want to see in the world.Stephanie:How do you create content that resonates with people? How do you approach that and get in front of new people and know what's going to attract them to the blog to then eventually, hopefully, sell some of your products?Éva:I think, obviously, there's a bit of a science, right? You're looking at the search. What's happening in search, and what are people looking for? But then there's also, I guess, the pattern of behavior around what they've been looking at for the past three years, and what really resonates there and then asking them. That's where the art comes in, because you're really trying to be as empathetic as possible, and as you start to really decide and see who your audience is, then you think about all the things that they need. We try to think of it with both lenses, which I think is the only way to create content.Stephanie:What are your top performing content? What articles you got going on, where you're like, "These bring in the most traffic, or people really love this article?"Éva:It's funny, because for a very long time, it was sex in the wild west, which was one of our-Stephanie:The what? Like Oregon trail type of sex?Éva:Yes. It was sex in the wild west. I mean, it was the shortest piece of content ever, because when we first started, it was more like a Tumblr than it was a full blog. For a long time, that was one of the biggest traffic drivers. It was so funny.Stephanie:People are searching for that? I won't even know the keywords to type in to even think like, "What did they do back there?"Éva:I know. I don't know if it's because there's not many resources for this we were just getting, and it was making it easier for it to float to the top of the search. I'm not sure, but that works really well. We don't dig into it too much, but astrology and sex works really well. There are all of these funny topics where I think people are thinking. It's just these... I would say they're more cultural moments than they are just the WebMD version of content that resonates with our customer.Stephanie:That's pretty fun hearing about the kind of content that works. Now with COVID and everything, what have you seen with this market? I'm guessing, like we mentioned before, that you've had a crazy demand. People are all at home trying to have fun. What new trends are you seeing pop up this past year or two that maybe you weren't seeing before that?Éva:I definitely think that one of the biggest trends that we've seen which makes complete sense is when people are on the site. We used to see it more when it was a nine to five world at night on the weekends, and we still see that, but there is more of a consistent traffic on the site for the whole day, which is interesting. I think we're also just seeing a lot more. There's a lot more press around it being a part of your life and your holistic health, which I think is the right approach. That's how we should think about this.Éva:I like the fact that people are thinking about it, and they're more health related and psychologically. It's psychologically tied to your happiness too, so I think that's important, but we see that a lot. I feel like before, people talked about sex in this compartmentalized way, and now they're talking much more about intimacy. That's always the way that we've approached it anyway, so we were in the right place at the right time in terms of messaging.Stephanie:That's cool. The other thing I was reading about with your brand was that, I mean, you not only lead into content as a big part of even starting the company and less about paid ads maybe in the beginning, but you also focused on PR, and you partnered with a celebrity. I want to hear about how you... Who is it? How did you get that partnership, and how did all of that accelerate growth in the beginning?Éva:The PR was interesting because I was actually just looking at our first piece of press today for some reason, and that was in the beginning-Stephanie:Like ever.Éva:Like ever. That was in the beginning of 2017, which was interesting. The first thing that I did because my background in brand building is also in design, and so I threw up this website in 2015 for maude, even though we weren't anywhere close to being ready to go to market. We started getting inquiries about press, so I knew then that it was a topic people were going to want to talk about. Okay, cut to 2017, we actually had a real landing page, and we got our first piece of press. We use basically our renderings of our products, but that was an important piece in getting maude off the ground because the brand awareness happened so far in advance of launching that by the time it got there, we had built in community.Éva:We had captured those emails, and people were excited and ready. I think that that's a really interesting approach for people to take. I don't know that I would give your brand a year [inaudible] too long, but for us, that was about the amount of time was and then... The celebrity partnership, which is with Dakota Johnson, came about... Her team approached us and said that she was really interested in the brand. At first, I was very hesitant to take on any celebrity investment, because I'm not really interested in putting a name to the brand in that way.Éva:When we partnered with her, it's very much about being behind the scenes, so she's been working with us as a team behind the scenes, and that's been great.Éva:We'll work on products. We talked through what does the next year look like? Anything that we work on hasn't really come to market yet, because it takes a while for any of these things to happen, but it's a lot of just behind the scenes working on really what is the creative direction of the company.Stephanie:Okay, cool. I want to dive a bit into product development, because this is such an interesting area to me like, how do you go about creating products knowing what your customers want? What does that lifecycle look like, great sexual wellness company?Éva:I think for us, I mean, we started working on the product in 2017, which is why we knew what it was going to look like, and so we had about a year. Every product that we make essentially has a six month to a year cycle before it gets to market. We do that for a number of reasons. We don't just take products to market quickly. We definitely work with our customer. We survey them and ask them questions and look at feedback, and then we also look at really what's happening in the market.Éva:Are there products that we can make in a better way? Are there things that we should be... Are there problems we should be solving with our brand? It's this collaborative process with the team to look in this 360 view and say what's really happening, and should maude even be making it? Because I think there are brands-Stephanie:How do you decide? What parts should you be involved in, and which things have you said no to?Éva:I think it's mostly, "Could it be used..." All of our products are meant to be used by yourself or with a partner. How can we be the most inclusive whatever your status is, whatever your adult age is, whatever your gender? That's one way to look at it. I think the other way to look at it is does it make sense with the other products? Is it additive, or is it random?Éva:There's a lot of hurdles to get a product to market. Condoms are class two medical devices. Our lubricants are the same thing. When customers are like, "You're inclusive. You should make all of these things," we say, "There's a couple things. One, is there a regulatory hurdle, and then two, is there a minimum order quantity that we just can't as a small brand get to?" Then the third would be like, "If we could do both of those things, is there a market for it?" That's just real brass tax. Do you take a product to market?Stephanie:Interesting. The other thing I'm thinking about is your ecommerce strategy with your products. I mean, I think a lot of consumers are used to, like I said, buying things in a certain way not really thinking too much about it, definitely not probably standing in the aisle and be like, "Hmm, which one do I want? Let me read the back of everything and see the description." How do you think about developing that ecommerce strategy in a way that people know what it is, know the benefits and do want to hang out and look at it, but also understand it afterwards, especially for someone new coming in and being like, "I'm not from this world?"Éva:I think it's interesting that you asked this because I would say that we could do better in the ecomm strategy given the fact that all of our bottles are brown, so we-Stephanie:Wait. All your bottles are brown.Éva:We have two lubricants. They both look the same, so we've had the same challenges. Our thought was that we create these products that look great in your bathroom or on your bedside table that you wouldn't be embarrassed to have out. But I think in some ways, it's also like, "Okay, but do you know what they are?" What we found in terms of ecomm is to be really clear about how you're shopping for them. Our site is merchandised in a way that's pretty clear and that you can find things in a couple ways.Éva:One is by usage, so if it's before, during and after sex, or just buy the actual type of product. That seems to have been helpful, but I still think we have work to do on that front, because I do think you're right. People come to the site, and they might be uncomfortable, or they might not know what goes together. We're actively trying to make sure they don't just see a sea of brown bottles.Stephanie:That's interesting, trying to put two things together to be like, "This could be a package," and like... Do you have something that shows up on the side of your website that is like, "Here's something that pairs with it?" What kind of maybe tests have you done where you're like, "This one converts well. They add more things to the cart," versus, "When we had it this way, it didn't work out?" Any little findings there?Éva:I mean, there are some products that people just like adding to their cart. One of them is the massage candle, because I think it's something... Universally speaking, I don't know that everyone knows what a massage candle is, per se, but a candle is very easy to understand, so that works as an upsell. I think that if you're pairing a product, if you're getting the vibe, for instance, and you get suggested the lubricant to use, I think that makes sense to people. If it's a bath product, there are other bath products that go well with it like the wash, which is our body wash goes really well with the massage oil.Éva:There's ways for us to basically guide you through the journey, but I still think it's probably one of our biggest challenges is to make sure that people know what else we have.Stephanie:Do you study other brands to see how they're doing things, or are you like, "We're such a different unicorn that there's really no one else that we can look at when it comes to recommendations and trying to figure out who needs what it at what point?" How do you figure out good practices that you want to try and implement?Éva:Well, so it's a bit of a conundrum in a couple of ways. I think the first way is that if you look at a let's call it a skincare site, usually, those things are maybe it's shopping by system. Let's say that they just have one cream or one face wash. That's easy to understand. If it's by say problem, it's distinctively called out, so it's for oily skin or dry skin. We don't have... That's not how you shop the site. In one way, some of the products are a system, but they're not based on a problem.Éva:It's still something for us that we have to, I think, solve for. One of the things that we're really.... I wouldn't call us precious about it, but I do think that we try to be very kind and empathetic about is making the customer feel comfortable, so we don't want to scream anything on the site. I think there are times though that were to tone down. This is a good question.Stephanie:What about quizzes and things like that? If someone comes and they're not really informed on what you guys are selling, have you tried out any quizzes that guides people to what they might want and in a way where they're like, "I didn't get there myself. You told me to get there?"Éva:It's funny because originally, the site was just a quiz. When we first launched, it was like it walked you through, and you ended up with seven different kits basically. There was a couple things, learnings, all things that anyone listening should know. We named the kits one through seven. That's not really helpful. You don't know like... You're like, "I can't remember what number I am." I think also, we didn't have enough options. The only real difference between the kits was how many products were in them, and then if it was shine organic or shine silicone lubricant.Éva:We're still figuring out the best way to bundle. I think that customers... What's interesting, and I think it will happen and improve over time, is that people are starting to see it more as, like I said, something between sexual wellness and beauty, and so they browse the site. There's actually a pretty high conversion on the site. They're browsing the site because I don't think they feel uncomfortable, which was [inaudible].Stephanie:Cool. The one thing that we've talked about in previous episodes is around UGC. That's the best way to get people to buy things if it looks organic, and my friends would use it. I feel like that'd be really hard for your brand to get [inaudible]. I mean, you might get flagged on Instagram.Éva:We do get flagged on Instagram. I think for us, it's just been that's where the bath and body products come into play. We've started to introduce more UGC because we've been seating out more bath and body products for people to try, but it's a really interesting line to tow between messaging around like, "Here's this really soothing body care, and how does it relate to intimacy," but we can't be explicit on Instagram and Facebook, so navigating this category has been really interesting, challenging at times.Stephanie:Did you consciously develop something that you could use on Instagram to then try and get that traffic back? Were you thinking about that before you even developed the body wash type products?Éva:Yeah. It's interesting because the condoms and the lubricant technically can be sold. The ads can be posted on Facebook and Instagram, but the language starts to get tricky. The reality is that there are real people looking at your Facebook ads, making the decision if they should be shut down, which always gets into really funny territory. When we launched the burn massage candle, we're able to start really ramping up ads, but it's really amazing what's allowed on Instagram and what's not allowed.Stephanie:Yes. I mean, I could go down the entire wormhole of certain people who've been banned and other people where it's like, "That is definitely a very bad site, and there's a lot of bad things happening there. How are they still on here?" It's an interesting world. What kind of ads are you creating? I think a lot of times about humor can always be fun around certain topics, and get people in. Do you guys approach it that way, or are you strictly content, educational? How do you think about your ads?Éva:They're just really beautiful straightforward ads. I would say that, again, they always lean more towards beauty. The funny part is that we... I mean, not to use the word funny, because I'm about to say maude has a sense of humor. It's just typically in the captions or in the writing or in the quippy parts of the content, so that could be brought out more. The ads are generally just like how to use the product, and they're beautiful.Stephanie:That's cool. We were talking a bit before the show about retail and how you were thinking about it. Tell me a bit about what your plans look like when it comes to entering into retail.Éva:We are actually... Our business is about 20% retail. We're in a lot of-Stephanie:Oh, you're already there.Éva:We're already there, and it's growing. We're launching in a bunch of new retailers this year. The retail angle has been interesting. We first started out... I can't remember who our first retailer was, but back in 2018, we were definitely in a lot of smaller boutiques. We were in hotels, which makes sense, and started going into bigger retailers. What was happening and what we still see happen is that the merchandising teams would be fighting over where we should be in store.Éva:Now, it seems like the beauty teams are winning. We're seeing maude. It's going to get positioned in a lot of the beauty categories in retail, in these doors not just online. I'm very curious to see what it looks like there.Stephanie:How do you think about connecting the story and the brand and approaching that omni channel experience? What kind of things are you trying out and learning through all of that?Éva:The kinds of things that we're working on is really sticking to the script for the brand, because we see a lot of crossover audience that comes to us via Instagram, and then finds us out in the world in retail. Whereas I've definitely worked in brands that try to cater to each retail audience, and they've test a lot. We try to just really be very distinctively on brand all the time so that people remember us. I think when you're really a new brand or a younger brand, it's important for you to be memorable and top of mind.Stephanie:How do you stay memorable? What do you do especially now that you say there's people popping up like competitors or copycats? How do you differentiate yourself to make sure that you're not blending in with someone else who enters into a Urban Outfitters?Éva:I think it's more about what's the product assortment and then what's our creative strategy, which hasn't been copied quite yet. The other thing is... I've said this on other podcasts. I don't want to completely sound like a broken record, but I think there are really two types of companies. One is product, and one is mission-based companies, very appropriate to what you do.Stephanie:Perfect.Éva:I think that our company is a mission-based company, which means you can't expedite the process of growing community and brand equity. I think that that's what makes maude really ahead of other brands that are trying to do it. It's like they'll have to build their own communities and their own look and feel, and customers will either get it or resonate with it or not.Stephanie:I mean, do you find that you have the ability to stay connected with your customer afterwards? How do you keep the conversation going to then increase the lifetime value of that person and bring them back and stay within your community? What kind of things are you doing behind the scenes to ensure that happens?Éva:Our biggest KPI internally has always been NPS and customer reviews and satisfaction. We have really, really high NPS, and we focus on making sure that they are engaging with our emails, and whether or not they're coming back to buy from us is more a matter of do they need it? What do their sex lives look like? Can we even control that? We can't do any of that work for them, but we can be there. It's staying top of mind through the content, and then making sure that they're happy. We check on them often, and then try to listen when they're not happy.Stephanie:How do you encourage reviews for your product? I could see, like what we were saying earlier, people being hesitant to review something where their name's on there, and someone identifies them. How do you get people to come in and drop some valuable insights into your review system?Éva:They'll get a notification to review the products so many days after purchase, which people are pretty open to doing. Actually, that's all we do. We don't encourage. We don't give discounts for reviews. We're really purist in a lot of ways in terms of how we gather data and what we ask our customer only because we're really respectful of this category and what it means for them to be disclosing this kind of information, and so we want to be as thoughtful as possible. The reviews that we get are amazing, and they're amazing a number of ways.Éva:They're heartwarming and funny and maybe too raunchy. You're like, "Okay, thank you. I didn't need to know any of this," but I think getting people to feel like they can safely write that is what we're trying to do. We're a pretty respectful brand.Éva:I mean, there are other ones that I think are like... a lot of reviews where people will say like, "I lost my spouse, and I just didn't know if I can navigate this alone, and this has made me feel like I'm a person again or lovable," and these things you will just be crying in the office. It runs the range. There's lots of reviews.Stephanie:I mean, I feel like that authenticity is key, though, when people are especially exploring a market that they've maybe never looked into before. Reading reviews like that is, I think, what sells the product by itself, because there's probably many other people who've comment and like, "That's me. I'm in that position right now. I feel sad like that." Trying to get customers to speak like that, I think, is game changing if you can get them to do that, which is why I'm so impressed that you get reviews like that because to me, I can see a lot of people holding back and not wanting their name on something and just being nervous about that whole thing.Éva:I know. I'm like, "I wouldn't write a review like this," but you should read the reviews.Stephanie:No.Éva:After, you guys need to read the reviews because they're very funny. I do have one other funny review that I'll bring up. Somebody used the burn massage candle, which has this great scent. It's really an amazing scent. It took us a while to develop, but she was like, "It made me feel like I was going at it in the redwood forest instead of my dinky no ho apartment." I'm like, "Oh my God."Stephanie:These people are good copywriters. Can I hire them?Éva:One woman wrote about the vibe. She was a powerhouse, a workhorse, an icon. That got turned into an email.Stephanie:That could be the tagline of the product.Éva:I know.Stephanie:Your customers should be the ones putting in their ideas, and then you just take their names and their tagline.Éva:I know.Stephanie:Man, that's good.Éva:That was good.Stephanie:Where do you see maude heading over the next maybe one to three years? What are you guys excited for, planning for?Éva:We're planning to go into one or two other categories. I think we're really deepening the product categories we have, and then venturing into a couple others all around intimacy. If it can be in the before, during or after category, we'll make it. I'm really excited about that, because I envision this maude. We have one in the office, so I guess it's easy for me to do. But I envision a maude shelf, and I'm like, "Okay, what does that complete experience look like?" I'm so excited to build that and then to see it come to life on these end caps and then these retailers is just...Éva:It's incredible. Then to go back to the reviews for a second like how much these products have impacted people's life, I think that that's where I'm really excited to help continue to solve for their needs, and also create products they really like and that have made their lives better in a small or sometimes big way.Stephanie:When thinking about retail, I know I keep getting back to this. I'm just so impressed that you guys are going this route and having success in it. What kind of lessons did you learn when exploring the retail path? What would you do differently maybe if you were to do it over again?Éva:I would say that the biggest thing I would do differently is probably not have launched in a category or in a corner of a store that wasn't really where we should be placed. An example of this is within Urban Outfitters, which again, Urban Outfitters as a brand has been really a good partner to us. It's not our age demographic, but I think in terms of... They've always been good about building out beauty. At first, they wanted to put the vibe in tech and the other products in beauty. I'm like, "The problem with this is that it creates this sense of novelty," and we actually have something launching this week around why we don't call devices toys.Éva:It relates back to why this should not be a novelty in the electronics section of your store. That'd be one.Stephanie:I mean, that'd be weird if it's next to some key chain, cellphone cover, and there's a vibrator.Éva:There's a vibrator. Honestly, I don't know that anybody even bats an eyelash at that sort of positioning because they have been called toys, and they've been made to be these novelty items for so long, but our whole ethos is that we're a brand for all genders, but in particular women, cis women have not... The vibrator has been treated like it's this thing that's an add-on, and for many of them, it's not an add-on. Why can't it just be with the rest of the products?Stephanie:Did you have pushback when you told them like, "We want to have our products together?" Are you even able to tell them where you want your product to be?Éva:We can ask it and guide them. I think over time, they were like, "These products should be here," and then they built out sexual wellness as a part of their beauty both online and in store. Then it was an easy solve.Stephanie:Cool. That's a good tip. Any other lessons or experiences from getting into retail that were insightful?Éva:I mean, we've had conversations with retailers where we go down this long journey of they need certain testing or they need certain things, and we have all of these quality controls, and we have all of this testing on our own, but some retailers are so specific, and then you get to the PO. They're like, "And we want 10 units." You're like, "We've just gone through seven weeks of your editor testing, and you're 10 weeks of this, and you want 10 products." I think that's an interesting lesson is who's really the volume driver, and then who's really...Éva:It's about brand positioning, and what are the risks you should be taking for each.Stephanie:Now, do you go into it with a minimum quantity from the start of like, "We're not going to mess around with 10 units if you're going to make us spend six weeks doing this?" Could someone new do that? Can you only do that now because you've been doing this for a while? Could a newer brand come in with those expectations of like, "Tell me how many units you guys plan on ordering before I do the work," or you just have to go through that phase in the early days?Éva:I don't know that they would have told us. I do think that there are trade offs around. For instance, what we've learned now with retailers is a lot of them online will outbid you for your Google search terms. If you've made all of this effort, they've only bought 10 items, and guess what? They're putting a lot of search dollars behind it. Is it worth it? I'm not sure. Is it worth it to Sam in the xyz.com, whatever? I don't think it always is. It's just a trade off around how are you acquiring a customer? Where are they finding you, and does it really matter if you're in... I won't name names, but...Stephanie:I mean, that seems like a very important point that I actually not heard anyone bring up yet about the retailers outbidding you on your own keywords. It seems like there should be something in the contract that says, "These are my set of keywords I go after. You can't touch them if we're a partner."Éva:We're only learning that we can even push that now. I think there's a lot of things as a smaller company where you're just like, "Okay, sure. I'm so excited to be in blah, blah, blah," and then lessons learned.Stephanie:Oh man, that's a good lesson. I'm glad I'm pushing this. I feel like a lot of people could actually learn from the stuff and go into it with different expectations than... It is easy probably to be like, "I've got Urban Outfitters. I've got whoever," and then to be like, "Oh, maybe I should have asked for more upfront." Ask for what you actually think is fair.Éva:I think you're also like... We didn't put a stockist on our page, because, one, we couldn't keep up with where we were, especially when we were in these independent retailers. If you think about stockist, it's really for the benefit of the customer, right? At the same time, it's like, "Well, then why are we in some of these places, because we know they only ordered 10 products?" This is all up to you as a brand, but think about these things and really what is the value.Stephanie:That's great. Good tips. I love it. All right, well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question, and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Éva:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Éva:This is interesting. I think probably to your point, it's content. It's building out a site that is less transactional and it's more about building a memorable brand, because I don't know about you, but I track brands. I'm like, "There are so many brands coming out." If I can't see a deeper story, or if I can't connect with something that I'm going to remember, it's just really hard for me to think about them.Stephanie:What do you think the world's going to look like in a couple years? Because like you said, it does feel like there's so many new DTC companies popping up, and it actually seems like it's hard to trust who's saying what and if that's their mission, and if they're doing what they're saying they're going to do, because now, anyone can launch really quickly, and then also go away really quickly if they need to. Where do you think the world's headed because of all that?Éva:I think it's in examining all of their channels, finding where they really are speaking to their community. When I mean content, you don't have to go to the site and find a blog per se. But if you can find a community, whether that's on Instagram or Tiktok or some channel where you can see evidence of them having a connection with their customer, I think that's really important, because I have been to a lot of sites where then I go check out their social channels, and they've been around for long enough, and there's just like no engagement. It's really interesting.Stephanie:That's working out really great. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Éva:Oh, this is a good one. I actually just started a podcast.Stephanie:Nice. What's it about, and who was your first guest?Éva:Well, so we haven't booked the first guest yet, but I will tell you who I want the first guest to be. The podcast is called The Una. It's about the first and the few females in a particular industry. It could be any industry, whether that's politics or finance or the spirit's industry. We want our first guest, although I think it's going to be much harder to land now, to be Deb Haaland. If you didn't know, she's now the first Native American Secretary of the Interior. She is from New Mexico, which is my home state, but I think because she's now the secretary of the Interior that it's going to be a little harder to land her, so wish me luck.Stephanie:Come on, Deb. Get on the show.Éva:I know.Stephanie:That's awesome. It sounds like a very cool show. I'll definitely be listening. When is it going to launch?Éva:Well, so we're starting to do the outreach because we did the trailer finally. If you go to theunapodcast.com, you can see or listen to the trailer.Stephanie:Very cool. What's Up next on your reading list?Éva:I just watched the Dieter Rams documentary, and I've been reading the book which is the 10 Principles of Good Design only because I think it's the way to bring me back to why we have maude, why we do what we do at maude. By the time this actually airs, the team will know, but I'm taking them to a screening of the Rams documentary, and we'll then talk through the book. That's what's up. I'm getting through the book.Stephanie:Very cool. What's one thing that you don't understand today that you wish you did?Éva:I mean, I don't know if I wish I did, but I really don't understand the allure of clubhouse. I'm like, "I don't understand. I don't get it."Stephanie:We've had a couple people say that, so you're not alone. Don't worry.Éva:I don't. I think that it's a pandemic phase, but I could be wrong.Stephanie:Well, we'll have to do a check back in six months or a year and be like, "Was Eva right or?"Éva:Although I have heard people like... They listen to this... For instance, our director of product listens to people talking about Sci Fi. I think that's a great use of clubhouse. Otherwise, when it's just talking heads about the same things, I don't know.Stephanie:I agree. All right. Then the last one, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Éva:Oh, well, I mean, this is going to sound cliche, but my husband is actually a mechanical engineer. He's the one that's designed... He designed the vibe. He designed our second product drop.Stephanie:Wow.Éva:He doesn't work for maude full time. He really builds the business with me when needed as if he were a part of it. I think that's the nicest thing that anyone has done for me.Stephanie:That's pretty amazing and awesome. Go him for stepping in and helping like that. Was he unsure if he wanted to design sexual wellness [crosstalk]? Did you have to be like, "Come on?"Éva:No. His take on design and the usefulness of design, which I would actually joke goes back this Rams documentary is like, "These products are really everyday items, and they shouldn't be made to be used that way." I think he liked the fact that maude was turning it into an everyday object instead of making it phallic and loud and all these other things. I think he was just like, "Great. Let's make this product better."Stephanie:Oh, that's awesome. That's amazing. Well, Eva, this has been so fun having you on the show, such a different interview, which loved, and it's fun hearing about maude and the industry and all that. Where can people find out more about you and maude?Éva:Well, with me, it's if they follow me on Instagram. It's evagoicochea.com, which is really long, but I'm sure if you type in E-V-A-G-O-I, you probably will be able to find me. Then maude is getmaude.com, M-A-U-D-E, because we could not just get maude.com.Stephanie:Amazing. All right, everyone, go check it out. Thanks so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to have you.Éva:Thank you so much for having me.

The Beatles told us that All You Need Is Love. Howard Tiersky says the same thing — but he’s talking about brands, not the whole of human existence. Howard is the CEO of FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency, which has helped brands such as Mattel, Barnes & Noble Education, Mall of America, NBC, Avis-Budget, and more transform to compete and win in a new digital world — and they succeed by getting customers to love the brands and everything they offer. Whether you’re a shiny new ecommerce start-up or a legacy brand with decades of history behind you, getting a consumer to actually love you is a multi-step process that is getting harder and harder as the digital landscape evolves. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we dig into what the pyramid of brand love looks like and how companies should be working to climb their way to the top. Plus, he reveals the biggest mistake he sees companies making that causes potential customers to shop elsewhere, and he gives some strategies to rectify that situation and improve your bottom line. Enjoy!Main Takeaways:The Switching Cost is Zero: On the internet, it’s easy for a customer to move from one brand to another and it costs them nothing to do so. That means a brand’s first duty is to explain very quickly and clearly that it can and will solve a consumer’s problem. This is the area where most brands fail because they don’t have clear, simple messaging or content that tells their story and delivers their value prop instantly.Keep It Simple: Doing customer research is the best and easiest way to find the kinks in your website and processes. Setting up a simple focus group to watch how customers are using your site to see where their pain points are or where they are getting stuck can reveal the most basic and easy-to-solve problems that could increase your bottom line.Pyramid of Love: Creating a brand that people truly love is a challenge that has to be tackled in stages. There are specific levels of customer affection that you need to build up and that eventually culminates in love. But reaching those levels takes work and requires a brand to take specific actions. What are the levels and how do you reach them? Tune in to find out.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, I'm chatting with Howard Tiersky, the CEO of FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency and the author of The Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Winning Digital Customers, The Antidote to Irrelevance. Did I do that justice Howard?Howard:Perfect. Stephanie, thank you so much. And thanks for having me.Stephanie:Thanks for coming on the show. So I wanted to start with something that we were chatting with a little bit before this, that your whole company is about reverse engineering love, which I actually really liked that saying. And I think I'm going to start using it in my personal life now, but I want to kind of start there to describe what is FROM and why do you say that?Howard:Sure. Well, what FROM is, is a kind of a combination between a consulting firm and a digital agency. We work with large brands like Avis, AAA, NBC Universal, Airbus, and our mission is to help them create a better customer experience that ultimately generates more customer love. Because in our experience, the companies that have customers that feel passionately about them, that feel appreciated by them, and appreciate those brands, those are the brands that do the best in the marketplace by all the most common measures of business success, revenue growth, profitability, and share price.Stephanie:Awesome. And a lot of the brands that you're working with they've been around for a long time. I mean, I was looking at, let's see, some of them. You said Airbus, Barnes and Noble, Facebook, Verizon, Spotify, Amazon. And I think I even saw it was like American Girl, which I used to have back in the day. And it seems like you catered towards the brands that have been here for a while and are now kind of seeking help on like how to get to that next level, how to find new customers.Howard:Well, that's exactly right. I mean, we have worked with some, what you might call sort of pure digital brands like Amazon and Spotify and different things. But the majority of what we do is really working with great classic brands that are faced with a real challenge because they need to transform to be relevant in a new age. And particularly when a company is large and has been around for a long time, that's not an easy thing to do. And so this is really our area of expertise, is how do you... Everything from the vision and the design concept of a future customer journey to dealing with the politics and resistance to change that you find in most large organizations.Stephanie:Yep. So when you're initially approaching some of these brands, I mean, how do you even go about finding out what the issues are? Because especially with the company size, it seems hard to go in and be, there's probably a thousand things going wrong, or everything feels like a fire in a larger company. How you start pinpointing, here's some of the things that are maybe not up to par right now, and that we need to start evolving and here's the game plan going forward?Howard:Sure. Well, the good news is most companies ultimately want the same things. They want more customers, they want more revenue, they want increased profitability, they want increased share price. So at the very top level, it's usually not too hard to figure out what the company's after. And one of my fundamental philosophies of everything I've done in business for 25 years is this idea that most business value is derived by influencing human behavior. If you can get people, people like customers, employees, shareholders, if you can get them to do what you want them to do, you're going to have a great business. And if you aren't able to get, for example, your customers to do what you want them to do, then you're probably going to be in big trouble, no matter what ERP system you've implemented or what other kinds of things you may be doing.Howard:So the first question is, all right, you want more customers, you want more revenue and profitability? Great. What behaviors do you need by customers, employees, et cetera, in order to get that business outcome? And in my book, I talk about many of the most common behaviors, but you can imagine what they are getting customers to buy more, to buy more frequently, to upsell to more expensive products, to refer you to their friends. And also there's some behaviors that are sort of value destroying behaviors. For example, customers calling you on the phone every day and spending hours with your support desk getting help, right? And so getting clear on, okay, well, if we can drive these behaviors, then that equates to business success.Howard:And then from there, the question is, all right, well, what drives behavior? I mean, how do you get people to do what you want them to do? And the answer is their thoughts and feelings. People behave in a certain way because of their thoughts and feelings. And then lastly, the question is, all right, well, how do we control people's thoughts and feelings? Where do those come from? And the answer is from their experiences, your thoughts and feelings come from experiences. So our job is to help conceive what would be the next generation set of experiences, a customer journey, that will drive the thoughts and feelings that will drive the behavior that equate to business results. So a very often it's research, doing a lot of ethnography, task analysis, different types of interviews, surveys, looking at existing data, for example, funnels on sites, things like that to understand well, to what degree are these things happening today? Because of course, no doubt, there is some degree of success in almost any business. We don't do often a great deal of success. And what's holding back the increase in that? For every customer that buys, there's a bunch that don't buy. Why not? For every customer that buys at level A and never comes back, why don't they come back, et cetera?Howard:So once we understand those things, well, then it's just a question of figuring out well, okay, how do you start to remove those barriers? Are we confusing them? Are we frustrating them? Are we annoying them? Are we just not offering a compelling enough value proposition, et cetera, et cetera?Stephanie:Yep. Are there any themes when it comes to the barriers within all these brands, were you have seen this come up time and time again, because maybe they have not thought digitally first because there are similar theme around customer barriers to buying?Howard:There are a number of very common themes. That's really a great question, actually. I would say one common theme is being failing to make it really clear, really fast, exactly what you can do for somebody. Anytime a customer is coming to you, they probably don't care much about you, that's just the way it is. Maybe they do if you've already inspired customer love. People really care about Apple. They really care about The 49ers, they really care about, I don't know, Aeropostale, or some fashion brand. Maybe they care about Rolex. But those are a very small percentage of brands that have inspired customer love. But before you get to that point, most of the customers that come to you, they really only care about themselves. What is it that they're trying? They're there to solve some kind of problem, right? Their kid is having a birthday party and they need to find an entertainer. Or their car is broken down and they need to get it fixed or whatever.Howard:And so how quickly do you make it really clear what you offer them? And it's fascinating to me how often brands don't do that clearly. They have different messages, they make it too hard for someone to really answer the question, can you help me solve my problem right now? And because the internet in this environment where it's so easy to just go back to Google, go to another website, it's like when you walk into a store, if you don't get clarity within the first 10 seconds that they're going to have what you need, the switching costs of getting in your car and driving to another store is at least a little bit high. But when you're on the internet, the switching cost is zero or so close to zero might as well be. So that means you've got to make sure someone understands right away they have a high probability of you being a solution to what it is that they need.Howard:So I think that's one thing. And if I were to just mention one more, it's just making it easy for people to transact. Sometimes I like to think of ecommerce as being basically about two things, persuasion and transaction. First, you got to get them to decide yes, on whatever it is you want them to do, and then you've got to get from there to the point that you have their money in your Stripe account or whatever, and that screwed up along the way. And how many times, Stephanie, how many times have you gone on a website and gone, I want to buy this thing and then started the process of checking out, but for one reason or another, you never wind up buying it?Stephanie:Or you go back to your cart, a day late and you're like, why is my stuff's not in there anymore? Why don't you just save that for a little bit. I'm ready to buy but now I give up. I give up easily though, that kind of stuff.Howard:And there's so many things that can confuse somebody about the checkout process, about the sales tax calculation, about the terms and conditions, about, I mean, it's about the promo code, why didn't the promo code work? So just really getting compulsive about asking what is everything that holds people back? How can I make sure that in addition to doing my very best to persuade people that they should say yes to whatever I'm offering, that I lose none of them between their intention and the completion of the transaction. So we do a lot of analysis and research to try to understand how many people are you really losing in that process. And of course, most people do that, right? They study abandoned shopping carts, things like that. So most people have a fairly high percentage of people, but of course not every abandoned shopping cart was somebody who had an intention to buy, some aren't right? There's various reasons people might be putting things in their shopping carts.Howard:But what percentage of those people are you losing? And then again, it goes back to a simple, what's holding them back? What is happening to stop them from completing what was their intention? And, I mean, I'll give you one tiny example. My company is from digital. Our domain is from.digital. My email address is ends in an at from.digital. It's a little bit of an uncommon first level domain, right? Many more dresses and in .com. And I would say a good 25% of ecommerce sites, when I check out, if I have to enter my email address, tell me that my email is invalid. It's not. Now, and I have a solution to that. I don't always abandoned because I have some other Gmail address, I'll give him something else. But these little problems along the way can very often add up.Howard:And the analogy I like to use sometimes is it's like if I had taped an extension cord across a hallway, let's say I was setting up a Christmas tree and I just had to run an extension cord across the hallway and I duct taped it down, so hopefully no one would trip on it, 50 people might just walk by and step over that duct tape, just fine. And 60 people and 70 people, but eventually, maybe it's the hundredth person, they trip on that tape down duct tape cord, and then another 50, 100 people and another person trips. It's a very small percentage of people. The vast majority of people deal with it just fine. But if you're running a billion dollar ecommerce site, and 1% of your customers are getting caught up by something like that and not purchasing, how do you feel about giving up 1% of your revenue? And for some of our clients, the answer is that 1% is a lot of money. And then if you have six, eight, 12, 15 things along these lines that don't affect everybody, but affect a few people and you start to remove those obstacles, all of a sudden you unlock a whole bunch more sales.Howard:And that's the optimization side of, if you will, digital transformation. And then of course, there's more of a envisioning, a dramatically different journey. But I think so often, and I guess this is my long answer to your question about what are the common themes, one of the common themes I see is the lack of what I call hygiene in ecommerce experiences. And by hygiene, I mean, most digital experiences are being constantly adjusted, tweaked changed. And of course, browsers are changing and iOS, operating systems are changing. And unless you're continuously looking through that saying, have I unintentionally planted a confusion bomb somewhere? Have I added a new feature, but it has a label or has a button that distracts from my main button or whatever? I've just added a cool new feature, but it pushed down something on the page, and now my checkout button is below the fold or whatever it might be, unless you're continuously looking for those problems, they'll creep in like weeds and they'll pull down your conversion. And that hygiene process is something that I find as a common theme, many of the largest brands in the world fail to do often enough.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. So, I mean, how do you go about identifying, I guess more like behavioral issues or how people are actually thinking? I mean, it's one thing to solve the tech and the UI aspect of it and make it easy to check out, but what about trying to figure out going deeper with the customer to really understand why didn't you check out, why didn't you follow through if everything else is there tech wise?Howard:Well, one of the things that I go into in some depth in my book is how to do customer research. And actually because at a certain point we had to start taking stuff out of the book because it was so crazy long, we were afraid of someone would drop it on their toe, they would injure themselves and we have a lawsuit on our hands for publishing such a long book. So we started to put stuff on the supplemental website. So I actually published for people to buy the book and additional PDF and a bunch of videos and all kinds of stuff. And the reason I mentioned all that is because research in customers to really understand them is foundational to being able to do all the things I'm talking about. You can't guess, and you probably can't figure it out even by looking at the site. I mean, you can look at a site and sometimes see some things that are probably problematic, and I do that all the time.Howard:But to really know, you use various types of customer research, such as bringing customers into an office or a lab or on Zoom and giving them tasks and saying, okay, great, go on my ecommerce site, here's the story. Your aunt's birthday's coming up. She's 62 years old. You need to find her present or birthday's in two days, you need to make sure you can get it to her in time. And and then you observe how that person uses that website. And as they do, you can ask them questions or we like to ask people to actually speak out loud, kind of verbalize their stream of conscious thoughts. And of course you record it, and you're studying and understanding, okay, well, what's easy, what's problematic, what's confusing, what's frustrating? And you can learn so much.Howard:And you do that for a few dozen customers and you start to see patterns and you start to see themes. And depending on how many different customer segments, a given website targets, you might do even more than that. But even still, it doesn't take that long, a week, two weeks. And in that time alone, you can learn what many of those issues are. You're observing people and then you're having the option to ask questions. If all of a sudden someone's using a page and all of a sudden they get that look on their face, they're fused or whatever you say, "Oh, what are you thinking right now?" They can say, "I'm thinking I can't figure out what the next step is." "Well, what were you expecting to see?" "Well, I figured there'd be like a next button, but I don't see one." Okay, well, and of course there might be a next button right there in front of their nose, but maybe it doesn't say next, maybe it says continue, right? And for whatever reason, that's not what they're looking for.Howard:So, and if a bunch of people are saying that maybe you should relabel the button. And as simple and obvious as something like that is it's shocking how often we find problems that are that simple. Then of course not all problems are that simple to solve, but very often that kind of low-hanging fruit. Can you imagine rewording a button and getting an extra $600,000 a week in sales? I mean, we've seen things like that repeatedly, of course, assuming the site has very, very high volume. So it's really, customer research just is many companies do some forms of customer research, of course, but my experience it's way, way under utilized. And then it's also about how you do the research. And so we've tried to be very detailed in the book and in the supplemental materials, suggesting some of the key things to do to make sure you're getting, you're really getting the insight and you're getting the most accurate. If you take a customer and say, "Hey, take a look at this website and tell me how you think we should improve it," you're not going to get a good information. You have to approach it in the right way.Stephanie:So what things didn't make it into the book that you wish made it in? What's not in the supplemental material is not in the book and you're like, man, knowing what I know now in 2021, I wish we would've had this in there.Howard:One is, I've done since then analysis on this idea of customer love and shown a bunch of examples. We have actually a scale of customer love from love down, sort of like what's the range from? It starts with love then it goes down to resonant, then it goes down to relevant, then it goes down to relevant and ultimately non-existent. And so this idea that companies exist in terms of the mind of any one customer at any time along this continuum. In subsequent to that, we talked about some case studies that show let's look at Apple, let's look at Disney, but let's look at some companies at each level, let's look at companies that are resonant, like Verizon, for example, great brand. A lot of people like them. They love them? No, probably not quite. Exactly.Howard:And then you go down from one from there, maybe now you're at Citibank and then you go down another one and maybe you're at Radio Shack. I don't know. So looking at them and then looking at their financial performance and really being able to show how this correlates. And then the other thing that isn't in the book that probably should have been, is answering the questions, how do you know what level you're at? And we actually have different tools we use, but one of them is a very simple test. We ask one simple question. And based on the answer to that question, we're able to say whether it's a brand that you love, or that's only resonant, or that's relevant, or that's irrelevant or non-existence. And the question is very simple, if this brand disappeared tomorrow, how would you feel? How would you feel Stephanie if Apple disappeared tomorrow?Stephanie:Oh, that's a good question. I'd be super sad because I own Apple everything.Howard:So if you'd be super sad, if you'd be distraught, if you'd be ah, really emotional, then that's a brand you love, that's a brand you love. That's the sign of love. But if you say, well, I be kind of bummed. I'd be like darn.Stephanie:[inaudible].Howard:Exactly. Well then that's a brand that's resonant for you. It's you care about it. I mean, you don't care about it like that much, but like, you'd be like, oh, rats. That's a disappointment. And then the next level down, if you're, well, I need to know that. I've no emotional response, but thank you for telling me that that brand is gone because gosh, I usually get my gas from Chevron. And I guess if they're gone, I'm going to have to go to British Petroleum. So thank you mental note. At least it mattered to you, it affected you, but not in a way that you're emotional about it. That's what we call a relevant brand. It matters, but you don't have an emotional connection. And then below that, if it's like, you're like, who's gone. Who are they? I didn't even know they were still around. Well then now you're down in this sort of irrelevant type range.Howard:And we do surveys like that all the time to try to understand which other brands that really people do love because a key question is, well, what are those brands doing? How are they inspiring love? And one thing that is in the book then is we showed the pyramid of how do you inspire love? What are the three things you need to do to get your customers to have that feeling of love? And that's in the book.Stephanie:And so what are the things to do? Because I'm thinking about a brand like car insurance, whoever's cheapest, don't care Travelers, Geico, whatever it takes, I'll just go with whoever. I don't feel myself ever feeling loving towards those kinds of brands. It doesn't really matter what they do. So how would a brand like that go about inspiring love when you're compared to someone like Apple?Howard:Right, right. So I'll answer your question and it's really not just for car rental, sorry car insurance, but for all brands. And I'll tell you the formula, which is a pretty straight formula. But before that, I want to tell you this, I've worked with a number of auto insurance companies over the years, including Allstate, Farmers, Mercury, a little bit with State Farm, CNA, so a lot. And I've done a lot of research over the years with customers of car insurance. And I will tell you this, there are without doubt people who love their car insurance companies.Stephanie:Oh, this is not me.Howard:I realize it's not you. And I'll be honest. This is not me, it's not me either. But I have been in customer research sessions and I have interviewed people who they are with the same car insurance company that their parents used, and they will never switch no matter what.Stephanie:Why?Howard:They are applying for life.Stephanie:Why are they so committed?Howard:Right, exactly. Why? So let's talk about why, but let me talk about it in the context of the recipe. So how do you get someone, how do you get a customer, how do you inspire a customer to love a brand? Three, just sort of show up in the book, a diagram of the pyramid, three levels. The bottom of the pyramid is to consistently meet their needs. And that is not enough to inspire love, but it is required. Whatever your area of, whether you're delivering pizza or whether you're a place that they buy power tools, or you're hotel or whatever it is, what are their needs, you are consistently meeting those needs. That's your base.Howard:Then the next level up is to periodically delight the customer, to do something above and beyond what you have to do and what you're expected. And then the top level, and that will get you farther up that continuum, but probably not to love. In order to love a brand you have to feel that they stand for something, they have kind of a value system that you reflect, that you see in yourself, a value system that you resonate with. In fact, to that last point, that's why we see some brands now that have taken a strong political stand, and by the way, a value doesn't have to be political. But like when Nike did the thing with Colin Kaepernick and demonstrated their support for Black Lives Matter, that had a massively positive impact on their standing in the market and their share price, and then their sales, because they were taking a stand for something that a lot of people believed in.Howard:And even though that also meant that they were taking a stand that some people believe the opposite and said, I'll never buy another Nike shoe in my life. And that did happen. And there are some people who won't buy Nike shoes because of that, the net impact was enormously positive because the love that they inspired meant so much more business than the people that turned away from them. And you can say the same, see the same thing on the opposite end of the political spectrum. There's a Chick-fil-A not too far from my house. And Chick-fil-A of course has taken strong stands on extremely conservative right wing social values. And I got to tell you there's police at that Chick-fil-A every day to manage the drive through lane, because there are so many people who want to buy Chick-fil-A sandwiches.Howard:And I have been told, I think I might've had one like years and years ago, but I'm not going to Chick-fil-A for the same kind of reasons, but I don't think there's anything that's special about what Chick-fil-A sells. And I think part of the reason of their popularity is because people... Like what they stand for. And you could say the same thing on the right of someone like a Hobby Lobby or other. And by the way, I'll just close this answer with one thought, which is why, why, why do these three things together create such an emotional reaction? And the answer is because they push the three levers, the three emotional levers that really inspire love.Howard:And what are they? When you demonstrate, when you consistently meet someone's needs, you're demonstrating to them that you understand them because you can't meet the needs if you don't understand. So that when someone's always there for me, I'm like, "They get me, they understand what I need, or they understand, I want that coffee hot when I get it, or they understand that I need whatever it is." When you delight someone, when you go above and beyond periodically, but you demonstrate another emotional thing, you demonstrate they care about me. They didn't have to do this extra thing, right. I was going to give them my money anyway. And they went and they did this extra thing. And that demonstrates that they care about me. So many brands they're constantly saying to their customers, "Thank you for your business." And all that kind of stuff.Howard:And man, that just goes right past people, right? How often do you believe when you get a bill from your utility company at the bottom, it says, "We appreciate you as a customer."Stephanie:You are like, "[inaudible 00:25:09]. You're welcome."Howard:Yeah, that's printed on the form, right? Come on, how stupid are we? We might as well not bother. I mean, it doesn't hurt or anything, but come on, people are very cynical. But when you make a genuine gesture that they knew took money, took effort that demonstrates. When someone at Zappos shoes goes out of their way to help you with something, or I was at an Avis Rental Car yesterday, and I observed somebody helping someone on the phone because they had a problem with the car for like 15 or 20 minutes and they were clearly doing everything they could. Way above and beyond what you would expect. When you get that, that demonstrates to someone that not by telling, but by showing that you care about them.Howard:And then the third level, when you express values that they resonate with, that makes someone feel that they are like me. There's a humanity there, not just a business. And that they share something about my belief or my values about the world. And when you combine those things together, and by the way, many companies don't do this. Many people, if we said, what does Ben & Jerry stand for? What does Whole Foods stand for? What does Apple stand for? I think most people would say something that is sort of [inaudible]. But if someone said, what was the auto insurance company that you were talking about?Stephanie:Travelers. Yeah [inaudible].Howard:Travelers. What is Travelers stand for? What does GEICO stand... You could say, well, GEICO stands for saving your 15%. But that's not a value, right? I mean, it might be a value in the sense of a discount, but it's not a human value, right? There's nothing wrong with saving people 15%, but it's not the kind of value that Nike stands for, or the kind of value that Apple stands for. We believe in you, we believe in unlocking your personal creative freedom and capabilities. What is Citibank stand for? There's so many brands. What is United Airlines stand for? And that's a great example. And by the way, I like United Airlines. I fly them all the time. fly the friendly skies, does anyone believe that United Airlines is the friendly skies? It's just words.Stephanie:I believe it. But I mean, I think that just shows that I don't think brands are able to tell their stories very well in a way that connects. I mean, like a political stance, I think that's an easy thing to jump on because it's like newsjacking. Something's going on. I'm going to take a stance on it. I think that's easy. But to actually tell your story without an event going on, to try and get news around it, I mean, that is still think is hard for large brands. I was just reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letter. I don't know if you also read that for fun like me.Howard:No, I don't.Stephanie:Maybe now you're like, "Nah."Howard:I probably should.Stephanie:It's great. I mean, he was going through the companies that they acquired and why he's going to bet big on America and he'll never bet against it again. And he went through the backstory of these companies that he acquired. I think Ikea was one of them. And it was just very interesting to see how he could storytell better for these very, very large companies. And going through why he even was interested in investing in them in the first place. I'm like, "That is what needs to be told." That startup story, yes, a huge brand now, but how did they get there and how you instill that message around your company without just having to newsjack or jump on politics.Howard:Right. Well, and actually it's funny because you asked about things that weren't in the book and one of the other things that's not in the book, but I did a live cast on Subsequent is the answer to that very question. How do you figure out? Well, actually there's sort of two questions. One is how do you figure out what your brand really stands for? Because some brands were birthed standing for something. Toms Shoes or something like that. And so the people that were attracted to that brand, both as customers, but also as employees, they understood what the brand was about. So you wind up with a bunch of people at that brand who believe in that mission, because that's what it was when they came. But when you start with a company that doesn't have that, then the question becomes, okay, so how do you achieve it?Howard:How do you come up with what it is? How do you figure that out? That's a challenge. And then also, and I did a live cast on that, but then also, and to your question, then how do you express that? How do you get the world? Newsjacking is one way or taking a stand on a political issue. But so anyway, so I did another one on what I call the seven Ps, which are just seven different ways. And you don't have to do all seven, but you probably want to do more than one of how you take the value that you're about, whether it's wholesome food, like Whole Foods, or whether it's personal, creative tools that unleash your creative potential. What have you like Apple and how do you actually get that to be something real in the world that people believe in and really see that you are standing for those values.Howard:And one of those Ps is positioning, which means basically telling people, right, which is what a lot of brands do. This is what we stand for. But if you only do that... What I always say is positioning serves only one purpose, which is to create cynicism, to create doubt, which is good. It's good to do that. Because if you tell people what you stand for, they're going to not believe you. And then they're going to look for evidence. And if you have the other Ps or some of the other Ps, and the evidence is there, and then they start to look for the evidence, then they'll start to see that it's true. Brands that are really strong at standing for something don't even need positioning necessarily because people experience it and they know what it is. But if you position, you better make sure that you've got some of the other things, because you're going to create doubt from your positioning.Howard:People are going to, if they're interested, test your positioning, to see whether it's really true in their experience. And if it is, then you're great. Then you've used the positioning as a lens to get them to evaluate whether it's really true, or if it's BS. But of course, if it's not really true, you've accomplished the negative thing, which is you've lied to them and you've allowed them to spend their time and energy proving that you've lied to them. And now, of course, no doubt, unless your positioning is that you're a lying company. It's harmful rather than helpful.Stephanie:Yep. That makes sense. So this kind of takes it way back to earlier in the interview, but a lot of brands right now, I see focusing on here's my mission and the company's starting around the social impact or causes or things like that. And a question that I've talked with quite a few companies about is, how do you balance the mission behind the company, but then also the product value? I mean, you mentioned that, so one of the big themes was that customers would come to a company's website and not know if it could help them right away. And it feels that's a newer thing where every new DTC company right now has some kind of mission, and I do see some of them struggling with, do you put it on your front page, do you sell with your mission, do you sell with your product, how do you think about that? So what are your thoughts on having a good balance there while not making the customer journey get harder?Howard:I think it depends who you're selling to. I think it goes back to what I said about understanding your customer. I know especially with millennials and younger we definitely see something that we generally don't see with older customers, which is a willingness to actually make a choice and spend money for a social reason, because of some sort of charitable connection or something like that. Usually with older consumers, they like it, we'll do tests like this. We'll say, this brand gives 10% of the money to the American Red Cross and this brand doesn't how do you feel about the fact that this brand gives them money? And people say, "Oh, I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful that they do that." And we say, "Okay, great. This brand's product costs $12, and this other brand that doesn't give them money, their product costs $11. Which one are you going to buy?" And very often they're like, "I think the $11 one."Howard:It's like they like it, but they're not really willing to spend more for it. Whereas with younger consumers, we find increasingly they say, "Oh no, I spend another dollar for the company that gives the money to the cause that I believe in." So I think part of it's understanding who you're communicating to, but also I think part of it's understanding that building a relationship is about a number of different thing. And you don't start a relationship usually by focusing on your values. Usually the first thing, I mean, if I said, "Hey, there's this restaurant that gives 50% of all the money to Greenpeace. Do you want to have dinner there?"Stephanie:And that's it?Howard:Do you want to have dinner there? What's that?Stephanie:If it's good food.Howard:Well, right. And you might want to know what kind of food is it? Is it Chinese? It's not enough, right?Stephanie:Yes.Howard:You kind of want to start with, well, what's the value proposition for me? It's like what I said earlier, people care first and foremost about themselves. So I think there may be exceptions to this rule, but I think by and large, you have to do a good job first of being crystal clear about... It's like that pyramid I talked about, right? You can't jump to the top of the pyramid. You got to start by consistently meeting their needs and demonstrate that you understand them, and that at a very basic level, you can deliver what it is that they need. And then you can go to delighting and then you can focus on values. And so I think the answer is it's probably not your first message, and it's probably not the thing that's going to attract them to you, but what's going to happen is they're going to be attracted initially by what's in it for them.Howard:And then you can start to build a relationship and help them understand, most people didn't buy their first car in a Ben and Jerry's because they were protecting grassland in Vermont or whatever environmental stuff. They looked good. They heard all Chunky Monkey, that's good stuff, and let's try and diet. But then they might've fallen in love with the brand over time because they realized that not only is that bottom of the pyramid, not only are they consistently meeting my needs really well, but that they're also doing things that resonate with my values. And then that keeps me coming back again and again, it makes me more loyal and less likely to jump to the next brand of ice cream that has something that sounds appealing.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I completely agree. So get them in the door with good products, showcase your value, and then you could probably upsell in a way, once someone knows this is a good product, and now maybe I am willing to spend that extra dollar now that I've already had a good experience with them versus trying to do it the other way around.Howard:Yeah. Or be less likely to switch or be willing to try new products from that same brand, et cetera.Stephanie:Cool. So the last thing I want to of touch on was content strategy. I saw you working with Aéropostale and American Girl around getting these brands to start creating content, making it more organic, getting customers to create their own viral content. How do you think about brand should be approaching their content strategy right now?Howard:Well, in this day and age, everybody's a content creator. And as you look at the ages of your customers, I mean, I'm a content creator and I'm over 50, but as you go down in age, it becomes everybody, my kids are all creating all kinds of content all the time on obviously Tik ToK and Instagram and everywhere. And so I think first of all, it's easier than ever. And I think that one of the best ways to inspire people to create content is to give them a platform. Because what every content creator cares most about is what, likes, whatever it is on the given platform, right? Subscribers, followers, likes all this kind of stuff.Stephanie:There you go, it's wrong.Howard:So I mean, there are many strategies of course, to inspire people to create UGC around your brand. But I think that the number one strategy to say, okay, how can I give someone a sense that if you create something you're going to get my platform, obviously if you're a brand, you want to make sure you have a good sized platform, which means simply how many people you can reach, how many followers, et cetera you have. And then if you can help someone see that by creating content around your brand, that's going to get that content more exposure than if they just create content and post it on their own personal Instagram account or whatnot. Then that's valuable. And then of course...Stephanie:What's in it for me? That's the same thing that we've kind of talked about this whole time, the whole time.Howard:Understanding your customer, 100%. And in this case, the customer is they may be your customer in the traditional sense, they may be buying your product, but they may not even buy your product, but it's, again, it's like what I said about human behavior, you want to influence people to create content about you online. Great. You have to make sure you understand those people and understand what drives them. And there are going to be some different personas, right? To get my daughter to create content is takes one thing, to get someone who's already a YouTuber with 15 million followers, now it's something different. It's called probably going to an influencer platform and writing them a cheque. And that can be a very viable and smart strategy to do as well if you do it correctly and you pick the right influencers and you make sure that it's organically integrated into their content and not feeling like something they just slapped on, like an ad. But that can be a very powerful marketing tool as well.Howard:So that's what they want. My daughter, they don't need your platform because they have an even bigger platform probably depending on, I mean, if your platform is big enough, if you're Coca-Cola, maybe you even have a bigger platform than them. In which case maybe the influencer is willing to do it for less or for free. But anyway, but it all comes down to that. Anytime you want to motivate someone to do anything, you want to make sure you understand, what do they care about, what are they trying to accomplish? That's right.Stephanie:Cool. Well, let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have 30 seconds or less to answer.Howard:Okay.Stephanie:Are you ready?Howard:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. First one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Howard:The elimination of a third party cookies.Stephanie:Okay. Expand a little bit more on, because I've had another guest say it doesn't matter and we have solved that and it's nothing to worry about.Howard:Okay. Well, I'll have to watch that episode because I would love that to be true. But essentially what's happening is between things that Apple is doing and things that Google are doing, Google is doing and frankly, things that may also happen from a legislation perspective, the ability to cookie somebody on one site and display ads to them on a different site is being no longer permitted or they're rolling out changes, which will mean that, if you're familiar with going on overstock and looking at a sofa, and then that's sofa is on every site you see around the whole internet, they're not going to be able to do that anymore. And it has the biggest impact on smaller or medium-sized ecommerce players, because that's a key strategy. So I think that's going to have a huge impact and require everyone to come up with different ways of attracting buyers. I think it's going to have a huge impact.Stephanie:Yep. When does that go into place? [inaudible]Howard:Well, some of it is already in place, certain browsers are already blocking third party cookies and other bots, but I think we're already in the middle of a transition.Stephanie:Okay. Got it. Onto a happier subject then, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Howard:My Netflix queue? Well, I think I want to watch this show about [inaudible], I think just started. Is that? I think it's Netflix or if not, it's one of the other services.Stephanie:On of them.Howard:All about how this [inaudible] thing got started and how so many people were hypnotized into being crazy.Stephanie:Interesting. Tell me how it is. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Howard:Women, and why they do what they do.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Howard:I've got two teenage daughters and a wife and man, I don't understand a single thing about why they do what they do.Stephanie:Oh, that's great. I mean, I don't even understand myself sometimes. So that's a valid answer. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Howard:Well, I guess I have my children, I've got five children. That could be [inaudible].Stephanie:Five. Wow. That's great. That's a good answer. What's the last ecommerce purchase you made that you maybe would not have made pre-COVID?Howard:Well, that I would not have made pre-COVID? I have been buying more gear for at home, stuff we're doing now because I used to do that all at our offices in Manhattan, where we had more of a studio. So I don't know the very last one, but a lot more lights and microphone stands and all this kind of a side monitor, an extra small minor like I've got over here to show me these slides, if I'm talking about things. So I've been buying a lot more Gadgets & Gizmos, did I say that? Gadgets & Gizmos.Stephanie:Whatever you say works for me.Howard:To make it easier to turn my office into a kind of a studio for all the content that we produce.Stephanie:Very cool. And the last one, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Howard:Well, I do have a podcast.Stephanie:Oh, well, what is it about?Howard:It's called Winning Digital Customers. And it is about how you most effectively win as a brand in an age where so many of your customers are living with digital at the center of their lifestyle. And the first guest on my podcast was a great friend and client of mine, Michelle McKenna, who's the SVP and chief information officer of the National Football.Stephanie:Oh, nice. I saw she wrote... Didn't sh write a foreword in your book?Howard:She did. She also wrote that. Well, that's kind of why we kicked off the podcast, which kind of connects to the book, same name. And she also was kind enough to to do that. And she's awesome and has driven a lot of innovation and transformation at the NFL, everything from the new way they do instant replays to stuff that supports player health and safety, to drones at Superbowls and sensors on players shoulder pads and helmets and the ball, so they can track with motion capture everything that happens in the game. So many cool things. And so she's always got great things to talk about and also a lot of stuff she can't talk about.Stephanie:We need to bring her on our IT visionaries podcast, which Hillary also produces. So we get her on there Hillary. Awesome.Howard:He is definitely an IT visionary.Stephanie:Yeah, we'll have to bring her on. Cool. Howard, thanks so much for joining the show. It was a pleasure chatting. Where can people find out more about you and your new book?Howard:Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me. If they want to learn about the book, there's a website for the book, which is winningdigitalcustomers.com, just like all one word. And in fact, if you go there, you can also download the first chapter of the book for free as a PDF if you want to just get started on it. Obviously it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kindle, Apple books, all those types of places, and in bookstores, possibly near you if you go to bookstores. And as well, if you want to learn more about me, I'm on social media. I publish a lot on LinkedIn and other places. You can find me by my name, Howard Tiersky and my company is FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency and we are at from.digital.Stephanie:Amazing. Thank you so much, Howard.Howard:Thank you for having me, it's been a blast.

Word of mouth is still the best marketing tool, even in today’s digital world. And in this time of the ecommerce boom, brands are constantly working to build buzz for their products. Whether that’s through ratings, reviews, social posts, or unique ad campaigns. But there’s one highly coveted strategy that’s been bubbling to the top of the stack, and every ecommerce leader knows it is the way of the future. User generated content. And a company called Yotpo is here to help with that. Yotpo is one of the top platforms that companies such as IKEA, 1-800-FLOWERS, Chubbies and more lean on to help them build communities, generate UGC, and create loyalty programs that yield the kind of engagement most brands only dream of. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I asked the co-founder and CEO of Yotpo, Tomer Tagrin to give us an inside look at how Yotpo is generating 5X more engagement and content creation than is typical. Plus, we also dove into the future of loyalty programs and personalization. My one-sentence takeaway: definitely start leaning heavily into loyalty and maybe let off the gas a bit on personalization. Why? Tune in to find out! Main Takeaways:Do What You Know: Success in ecommerce is becoming more about the community you can build to support you. So the question founders are asking themselves — and Yotpo — is how do you build that community? The answer is pretty simple actually, you just have to follow your own interests. A founder starts a company for a reason, and they typically personify the exact target customer their company is going after. So dig into that link and create content and strategies that would resonate with you, the founder.  Long Live Loyalty Programs: Every brand should have a loyalty program, otherwise there are opportunities and dollars being left on the table. The only way to access those opportunities and cash, though, is through a very brand-specific program. There are no one-size-fits-all loyalty programs. Brands need to understand what they want to incentivize for in their loyalty programs, who they want to target, and how they will reward the behavior they are trying to generate through the loyalty program.  Partial Personalization: By deploying personalization tools, you can sometimes open Pandora’s box of never-ending adjustments and adaptations in order to create individualized experiences. At a certain point, the return on that investment starts to diminish. Customers are all different, but they don’t all need to be treated as unicorns. Create segments of customer types, and personalize the experience to those subsets.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to up next in commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Joining us today is Tomer Tagrin. The co-founder and CEO of Yotpo. Tomer, welcome.Tomer:Hey, thank you for having me.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. You might not know this, but a couple of guests who've come on the show actually have mentioned you guys. We had the CEO of Live Tinted come on, and a couple more. They said your company-Tomer:In a good way or in a bad way?Stephanie:In an amazing way. They said it was game changing.Tomer:Thank you, thank you.Stephanie:Yeah. When I saw you coming on, I told our producer Hilary, I'm like, "This is awesome. So serendipitous." But in your words, I'd like to hear what is Yotpo, and why did you start Yotpo?Tomer:Yeah. You want the short version or the long version?Stephanie:Long if it has a lot of little interesting tangents.-Tomer:You got it, you got it. I'll give you maybe the opening gambit about your points, then I'll tell you maybe the story in a more detailed way.Stephanie:Yeah.Tomer:The best way to think about Yotpo if in retail, it was about location, location, location, online, it's about consumer attention. In a world where every brand is an ecommerce brand, right from Miss Stephanie in Tomer t-shirtcompany.com, up to PNG, everyone is fighting over consumer attention. That's what we do. We help ecommerce brand win over consumer attention by consolidating the marketing stack and really enable them to build great experiences for consumers, because that's the only way to win over consumer attention. We actually started as a reviews company, and we started from a very ... 10 years ago from a personal story that we had a friend in my group of friends that each year made fun of us, that we didn't buy him anything for his birthday.Tomer:11 years ago we decided to do something, and he was big on photography back then, so we bought him photography [inaudible] and because I'm the geek, I [inaudible] online and I find him a fancy SLR camera. We bought him that, he was super happy. But what happened is that the teacher, after the second lesson told him that we bought him the crappiest camera we could have bought him. And all of my friends made fun of me. Then I went back and we saw that my decision was based on reviewers name like Stephanie 123, and I don't know anything about it. That is okay. Let's do that. Very, very good, and basically find authenticity of reviews. So, we built our entire technology based on that, and making sure that whoever writes reviews is a real person that actually bought a product.Tomer:If she or he are an expert in the field, we'll also let you know. We really ... wherever to disrupt let's call it the reviews in ecommerce, especially on the SME, it was also a great time. We were much luckier than small. It was a great time to enter ecommerce, or ecommerce marketing. We grew with a lot of the Shopify, the B commerce. We were very focused on the lower end at the beginning, and now we have Ikea and PNG and 1-800-Flowers, but we were for years focused just on the lower end. I think five years ago, we understood that the bigger problem for ecommerce brands is that they're super busy, they're very small and nimble, and they have just too many point solutions to deal with, so we need to consolidate everything because the consumer experience actually flow through each one of them. I'll give you one example.Tomer:I remember one of our customers telling me a few years ago, he said, "Look, Tomer, when someone gives me a one star review, I still ask for a referral, and that's the dumbest thing I can do as a brand." Right? Of course, but they just weren't able to connect those dots together before [inaudible]. We completely re-architecture. We went through a lot of different things to make sure that it's one platform to really help you win over consumer attention. It was something very, very important. That's our mission in life today. Since then, we built two more products, we acquired two more companies, we completely re-architecture the platform itself. We changed the go-to market, we've been through a lot. Now we're in the face of adding a new product every let's say 18 months.Stephanie:Wow. That's a lot of new products, because yeah, I was looking through everything you did. I'm like, okay, you do reviews, you do referral programs, you do smart loyalty programs, and everything seems every time I talk to a commerce brand, I do always think, wow, you guys have so many tools and technologies you have to plug into. How do you keep track of it all? What does the marketing tech stack look for someone when they come to you? What things are they, "Hey, can you help us consolidate all these crazy processes?"Tomer:Yeah. Usually customers don't come with us to consolidate, it happens, but not a lot. We actually build the company that we commonly just ... we can have five different products in the market, use the general reviews, what we call VMS. It's a Visual Marketing Suite, a referral product, a loyalty product, and an SMS marketing product. Walking on two malls, one of them is going to be launched let's say in two quarters, another one in four quarters, and sorry. Basically you start with the ones that you can start with just loyalty, or actually SMS now is our fastest growing part of the business. Then we show you that through the synergies in the product, it actually makes sense for you too ... I'll give you an example. If you launch a loyalty program, the best way to communicate with your most loyal customer is through SMS.Tomer:We make it very easy for you. If you want to send a loyalty campaign for customers that are likely to buy in the next 90 days, and gave you a five star review, and referred a friend, to send them an SMS with a new loyalty offer, we make it very, very easy for you. Where in the other architecture, it literally use [inaudible] taking weeks to orchestrate all of that. For us, you can start with whatever product you want, it doesn't matter for us. That's how we build everything because we don't want to force the customer to consolidate. Once you start seeing the synergies and it makes sense, that's where the exponential value starts. Actually, in our high touch customers, we see now that more than 60% of the customers actually use buying and using two plus product, so they are multi product customers, and that's something super, super important for us. From time to time, customers come to us to consolidate, but not always.Stephanie:Yeah, awesome. Just to give a little context too, tell me about some of the recent news around funding that maybe you guys just went through. How big are you, and who are some of your clients. Name drop some people if you can. So our audience knows you all are legit, you're on the unicorn status. I'll call you that. You might be like, "Don't call me that." I just did.Tomer:I actually have a joke in the fundraising that we did. We just closed a $210 million round at a $1.4 billion valuation, from great investors and definitely on our path for the next stage to become a public company. I always had a slide actually in the fundraising deck that said that despite of the valuation, we are not a unicorn, we are Flamingo. We are building a Flamingo. Why is that? Because Flamingo is a real animal and we are building a real business to provide real value to customers over time. It's a very unique animal.n It's actually part of our culture. It's a joke, but it's actually something very, very ... that we take very seriously.Stephanie:I love that.Tomer:Some of our customers, Ikea, Unilever, 1-800-Flowers, we also have 30,000 paying customers. A lot of the cool brands, the Chubbies, the away, the movement, all of the poster Childs of D to C are as well usually choosing Yotpo, but also some of the largest brands in the world. I think they come to us usually because our products are really ... we like to call it easy to start, easier to scale, and really trying to think about merchant, and really trying not to use buzz words, not to use fancy things, just really helping those brands grow faster in a very direct way. We are 500 people, or a little bit less, and I don't know any other group of people that are so focused on helping brands win over consumer attention. That's literally what we think of every day.Tomer:Also, I think that ecommerce is one of the largest changes of our generation, and we believe that we have a real shot to become one of the most important companies in the history of commerce. I always tell the company telling me that ... I have two young boys, and one of the things that for me I want them to think about Yotpo is they were a huge driver forward for that something that called digitization of retail, or the shift to e-comm, or whatever you want to call it. Very much we are super, super passionate about helping those brands.Stephanie:That's amazing. Congratulations. That's awesome funding-Tomer:Thank you.Stephanie:...awesome investors. You're really cool. I love that Flamingo reference. I want to use that just for myself now.Tomer:We call it be a Flamingo in a flock of pigeons. That's our phrase internally.Stephanie:That's good. It seems like the perfect time right now too, because customer acquisition is getting really expensive. Everything I've heard on the show is that, organic, natural, UGC, that's what's working now. Tell me a bit about how you think about the customer acquisition world, and why organic natural content or reviews, helps more than anything else right now.Tomer:It's a great question. First of all, I'll maybe share a funny story. Let's say six months before COVID started, we actually had a customer advisory board. We meet customers and we ask them questions. One of the phrases I add that stuck with me is that one of our customers said that buying a Facebook ad is more expensive than a fifth Avenue store. Definitely you know Instagram, Facebook, Google are extremely, extremely expensive, and I don't think it's going to slow down. They want to be like a lot of other consumer fronts, at least in the near term horizon. When you add on top of that, Amazon, so the question is how do you win? You win by building a community. You win by giving your customers a great experience.Tomer:Part of that means social proof, part of it means making sure that you are very transparent, part of it means that you need to focus on customer lifetime value, because it's so hard to bring, and you need to make sure they're coming back. Loyalty, I can tell you it's really top of mind. Then for us, we entered loyalty in 2018, we are now the fastest growing loyalty platform for ecommerce brands, and we power some of the most sophisticated loyalty programs out there, and it's just amazing to see that even in the election, there were brands that giving points for customer to show that they voted, and there are customers that hate the point system because it's they lose their brand and they just have a VIP tier experience, which is super awesome. There's so much to do with that, which is fascinating to see how much brands are able to innovate.Tomer:I think we definitely live in a world to your question, I'll circle back that whatever walks, you cannot win just by being great in paid anymore. It doesn't scale. It can scale to a certain number but it won't forever. Now the question, how do you build your brand? You build your brand by your community. That's what we are very, very focused on as a company.Stephanie:What are the ways that you advise your brands to build that community? Especially if you come and you're like, I don't have a community. Where do I even start with that? I would think you need to acquire customers first, but then that's pricey. Then you're not even thinking about retention yet because you don't have anyone to retain. What are the maybe building blocks even get to that next level?Tomer:Yeah. I'll share a story. Are you familiar with Chubbies, the brand?Stephanie:Yeah.Tomer:Chubbies they have a great story on how they started. It started from an email that they used to send. I don't know if you ever saw one of those emails. Super straightforward, so targeted to the buyer persona because they will, the buyer persona. It's a really great group of founders that were just able to provide great content, and their customers actually want to buy Chubbies because they feel that this is the brand for them. You have movement that were very, very early on, very, very good on Instagram ads. I think today it probably means that you need to do everything well, there is not a hack, so you got to at least experiment with paid, you got to experiment with content, with organic. You have to invest, but in general, when you look at mission-driven brands, the founders are usually, they are the buyer persona, or they know the buyer persona very, very well.Tomer:Then it just become easy. Do stuff that are interesting for you. Do stuff that you would like to buy from. I think that's where we see the brands that are growing the fastest at the moment. I think there was also probably a year, a year and a half ago, there was a huge trend in drop shippers that's now actually declining, which is a good thing. I think it's easier for brands now to stand out. I think that the bad news is that you need to do good in multiple fronts, but the good news is there's so much demand at the moment for great brands that you just need to focus on your buyer persona.Stephanie:Yeah, that makes sense. Another interesting thing that I was reading about was how ads that have reviews in them are the highest converting ones. Which makes sense. I even think about, if I see someone's picture with a review on it, an organic picture, I don't want just the product picture, or even if that came on and she'll be five stars, check it out. I would go there all day versus a normal ad.Tomer:It's actually something we built a few years ago, and the hypothesis was, it was also based on our customer feedback that they think that social ads with social proof will work great on social media. That makes sense. Then what we did is we made it super easy and we work with Facebook and Instagram to make it easy to incorporate your user generated content, and then we started to experiment with that. We learned that, the studio photos that you have actually work like walls then real authentic and customers' photos, so, we really build a lot of technology to encourage customers, and how do you get more photos, and then make it just very, very easy for you to use it on your social ads. It works phenomenally well. I think in general, one of the key learnings that we learn as a company that we're established to establish trust between brands and consumers. That's what we founded the company.Tomer:I think that, especially if you're a newer brand and you're just now starting, you have to focus on how do you create trust? The best way to create trust is by what real people are saying. I can share with you endless amount of data showing you that products that just have five star reviews convert much worse than like 3.8. Which is insane, but it makes sense, because nobody believes everything is perfect. Authenticity, transparency are so key in a world where again, customer acquisition cost is super expensive because if you were able to bring a customer and she or he had a bad experience, it's bad unit economics. You cannot scale that business.Stephanie:Yeah. I think the interesting thing too, about organic reviews, even if they have a 3.8, is that you can oftentimes go in there and find, oh, this person's talking about something that I really don't care about. I'm even thinking about this and maybe Tomer you're in the same place where it's looking at daycare's, preschools, and all this. Some of them have a four-star and people are complaining about the wait list. I didn't want to pay a wait list fee, and you're, 'Okay." That shouldn't have brought it down, but that's real, and now I trust it a bit more, and now I'm interested in exploring it, and not just looking at a high level review. What I wonder is, how do you get people to review? How do you get them to submit photos? I don't have the time a lot of times, even though I love products, I just don't have time for it. How are you incentivizing customers to do that?Tomer:Yeah. I'll share a few stories that I think you'll find they're funny.Stephanie:We all have funny stories.Tomer:When we started, we didn't know a lot on the reviews industry. So what we did, Amazon, Amazon has a page called Amazon top reviewers. These are people that wrote, I don't even know how many reviews. We looked at their names or handlers, and we searched those people on Skype and Twitter, and we bombed them, and wanted to interview them. We spent hours and hours interviewing Amazon top reviewers, and I think it was eBay top reviewers, just trying to understand why people write reviews, what incentivize them to write reviews, and why other people are not writing reviews, and that's how we formed the new approach and the reviews industry. I think definitely we make it easy for you. You talked about, you don't have time. We build a technology called email review that you can leave the review inside the email.Tomer:It's one step, it's really easy to do. That's super, super important. The second thing that's really, really important is knowing when to ask for reviews. For example, when you buy a mattress, you need to experience with the product a little bit more before you will be willing to give a review versus a t-shirt. I think those are important. The last thing that I can tell you, which is really, really interesting, and this is why user generated content is so connected to loyalty, is once you identify who are customers that are likely to be loyal, those customers are much more likely to generate content for you, photos, video. After someone upload a photo, I can tell you now, if you're not a Yotpo customer, ask them to join your loyalty club. There's five X more chance that will happen. How do you take one interaction of the consumer with your brand, and translate it to the next step, and how do you take them in the customer journey step by step by step.Tomer:That's why we are big believers you need to consolidate the marketing stack because it is one customer, one journey, and it's not silo. I think it's a frictionless experience, is knowing when to ask, and knowing who to ask. It's super, super important. I think when we started Yotpo, we always heard the phrase of 1% of people write content, 9% of people reply to that comment, and 90% are just reading that content. Today we are more closer to five to 6% are generating content almost, which is a five X or six X improvements when we started. A lot of it is that consumer behavior, a lot of it is our technology, and a lot of it, I think is just brands are evolving and understanding the importance of that. But it's just fascinating when we ask about photos for example. There are brands that you would never imagine, never in your life, that people will ... I remember I was scrolling through one of our website, and they will say they are selling metals. Literally blocks of metals. That's what they said.Tomer:They have thousands of reviews, thousands of reviews. People write reviews and super passionate reviews. We also have an NLP engine, a natural language processing that can give us and the merchant, positive sentiment, negative sentiment, and show you the score. People are super passionate about it, and apparently people are passionate for ... Different people are passionate for different things. You just need to find those people that are passionate about what you build. That's what I always find super, super inspiring.Stephanie:That is a really interesting take though around how you just need to have that passionate audience and finding them. But what also is interesting is how you guys are ingesting the data in ways that, I think I've been there for a while, but you keep saying consolidating it. I've always thought okay, you get all these good reviews, but oftentimes, I might not want to see their review for 99% of the products that I'm not looking at. If I'm looking at stocks at a company that has a hundred skews, I really just want to be able to zoom in on the reviews of those stocks and not see everything else.Tomer:Even more than that, what we did now, if you go to Yotpo customers, is we build an NLP engine, Natural Language Processing that can pull up topics from the content. Let's say if you ... I don't want to take your pre-school example. If you want to just read about the waiting list, you can click waiting list and read just all the content talking about that. You want to read about the teacher, about the food, about whatever you want, you can. Especially on mobile, I can tell you that really, really increases conversion because who has the time to scroll through 300 reviews? No one. Once you have the relevant topic and a search bar, and the topics are actually accurate, then you start to really improve the quality of content that you are able to read, and you as a consumer really are able to get the information that you need in order to make a buying decision.Stephanie:Yeah. What do you think about curating reviews from other platforms? Do you guys also incorporate Amazon and walmart.com? How do you show in a holistic way? Or I also think a lot of those consumers are very different people who shop at Walmart, are different than Amazon versus on your website.Tomer:Yeah. In general, we are big believers that we need to authenticate. I mentioned how we started that these are real people that actually bought your product, so we just do it from the content we generated. I can tell you in our photos, we curate from Instagram or Pinterest, because we think that makes sense actually from specific hashtag, or specific accounts of the brand. I can tell you ... I'll give you another example that's been explosive for us. Let's say if you are a brand that want to increase your review count. Let's say you sell a lot on Amazon, you sell a lot direct, but you want to increase your review count on your direct SMS, the best example. Our integration, when you can send review quiz through SMS, amazing. Just amazing results.Tomer:I highly recommend it for anyone that wants to increase their social proof, is to leverage SMS and SMS marketing. This is why when for us it's you use our SMS marketing product and reviews under the same data platform. That's what we work. Our platform theme works on is to make that experiences literally a click of a button. Send review request, and that's it. I think in general, we are not a big believer from curation of content. It's more about generating that content and giving you more tools to generate authentic content that we can authenticate.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I think just thinking about making things frictionless for the end user. That's going to change everything. Especially with reviews, I'm thinking if you send me a text, an SMS, that just said, just review it and you don't pop me around a million other places-Tomer:Exactly.Stephanie:-I'll hit the start count. If I don't feel adding in words right now, I won't, but making it easy to where I'll actually interact quickly, I think is the way of the future. Even earlier on Amazon, it was asking me to review something on my homepage. I tried to click five stars then it shot me over to another page and wanted me to write stuff, and then I just exed out. I'm like, "No. It's too much work. I have two minutes before this interview." I was just trying to say, “I liked my pair of shorts I bought."Tomer:I can tell you it's the same thing in loyalty by the way. We see that loyalty, because loyalty you also see that in brand. But loyalty is a very complex problem. In order for a brand now to launch a loyalty program, they need to give it some thought. It's not a cookie cutter, because every brand has their own thing. On the flip side, if the experience won't be dead easy for the consumer, or frictionless for the consumer, consumers won't engage with the loyalty program. This is why we really focused on building an experience that it's going to be really easy for your consumers to understand what's in it for me, and how to engage with your loyalty program. Because if not, if it's like you said, a link to another page and then I need to ... it's not going to happen. They're not going to join your loyalty club. In general, in every product that we have, we are very, very focused on a very frictionless consumer experience, because we learned so many times, it won't work if it's complicated. It just won't.Stephanie:Yeah. How do you think about building up a good loyalty program? I'm sure a lot of your clients ask, what are some pitfalls that you've seen before, and how do I make it frictionless, and fun, and engaging? How would you advise them on creating one from scratch?Tomer:Yeah, there's a lot actually and it's a complex topic that we are super passionate about. But, if I need to summarize it, I'll say that one, like I mentioned complex problem, but it has to be an easy consumer experience. Second it's not one size fits all. You really need to understand, okay, why do you want to incentivize for? Let's take Chubbies, another example that we started. Chubbies has a great loyalty program across categories. Let's say if you buy shorts, they want you to buy a t-shirt, they will incentivize you with points to do that. That's super, super important. For Chubbies the point system it's basically a mechanism to incentivize certain behavior that you want, that works extremely well. You need to figure out what behaviors do you want to encourage. Another example is ThirdLove. I don't know if you're familiar with that brand.Stephanie:Yeah, I do know them.Tomer:They also use our loyalty program. For them it was all about the brand, meaning they didn't want to use a point system, they actually wanted to use a VIP tier system. You do a certain action or you spend a certain amount, and then you get certain VIP tiers level that you can get different parts from free shipping products, discounts, whatever you want. That's been working phenomenally well for them. I think early on just in 2021, you have to have a loyalty program. I think we are past the days that, yeah, I'm not sure. You are losing a lot of money, you're leaving a lot of money on the table, but you need to first figure out what do you want to incentivize for? What is the behavior you want to encourage?Tomer:That's super important. Then, what are you willing to give, and how do you make it easy for consumers to engage onsite? You can send different emails, you can run different social campaigns, or social contests. There's a bunch of things, but eventually it's all about how do you build a relationship with your most important customers? With the customer that you care the most on? It's a very emotional experience on one end, on the other end, it's that simple. You need to see ROI. It's all about customer lifetime value. The analytic needs to be if you're not sure if your loyalty program is not working or not, it's probably, it doesn't work, because it's very easy to understand that it's working, and it's about increasing customer lifetime value.Stephanie:I think that's a good point too, about knowing your customer and what they're going to want to see. For something like a ThirdLove, I can see why they want to be seen as it's more premium, you're part of the club. We're so much more higher end than a Victoria's Secret or whoever else they're competing with, versus the Chubbies, their client probably doesn't need to see that to feel like they're part of the club. They just want the product.Tomer:Exactly. It's such a strong brand that if you buy Chubbies you're already part of the club. It's one of the best ways definitely. I'll give you another example. Maybe I can give you also to share some light about the connectivity. Let's take another one of our customer that you probably know, Steve Madden. Let's say you are a junkie of sneakers, that's your thing in life, Stephanie. You are the number one in their VIP tier program. Literally number one. Then you get sneakers and you give them a negative review because the shoelace was off or whatever. They want to know about it.Stephanie:Sounds like me.Tomer:They want to know about it and they want to treat you a little bit differently. Taking that loyalty data, or the review data and injecting it back to loyalty and help desk, and doing all of that, is so, so important in order to provide a great consumer experience. That's the only way to do so. We see that time and time again, you can not live with silo. That's one of the biggest tips that I can give is that whenever if you're a Yotpo customer, you're not a Yotpo customer, it matters less. It's about the connected experience.Stephanie:Yeah. Personalizing it is huge, and having a customer not feel they're talking into a black box. If I say, “Hey, I'm not happy with something," and then like you said, they're like, "Here's some points to just buy some more of it," or something, that's probably-Tomer:I'll tell you another joke that we use internally. Personalization, I hate it when product managers come to me and talk about personalization because I won't call it the graveyard of ecommerce, but I think the problem with personalization, it's an endless problem. There is always something to improve, but eventually for the consumer, there is a diminishing value in keep on personally up until the point. For us, it's more about look at sub segments of your customers and how you treat them differently, and how do you help the marketer really test and try certain things, but trying to personalize it. You can do that all day long and it won't move the needle necessarily. It's just about understanding from that specific customer, what sub segment they belong to, and then how do you treat that sub segment differently?Stephanie:That's really interesting. I like that. It's not like everyone is a unique snowflake. However, they probably do fit in some buckets, and you can treat those segments pretty similar, and now we have methods for them. I liked that.Tomer:Exactly.Stephanie:I'm thinking about all this data that you guys are getting, and the way that you're reacting to it and making new products and helping these brands, what data is out there that I guess you could call it dark data, that you feel could be tapped into, but you're like, we just haven't gotten there yet, but there’s always data that's out there that you feel you're still not fully utilizing. What are brands usually have access to, but they're just not fully capitalizing on it?Tomer:From the brand or from Yotpo perspective?Stephanie:I say brand perspective.Tomer:Brand perspective, I think the most interesting thing is actually analyzing the content itself of the reviews. I can give you two examples. One of the best examples which I love. Are you familiar with [inaudible].Stephanie:No.Tomer:From these scores they're actually doing phenomenally well. A phenomenal brand. For them, we actually were able to analyze the content. We have a engine called insights from the natural language processing, and we learned something really interesting. That a lot of the content was written "I'm so happy. My boyfriend bought me that and that." "I'm so happy. My husband did..." We actually told them, "You know what? We think you should launch a couples line, because a lot of your buyer persona, it's not the sheets He buying for his girlfriend, for his wife, it doesn't matter." It's one of the most successful launches they ever had. Or we have another furniture brand that I won't mentioned their name, that we showed them that the number one reason for returns of the product is actually the smell of the sofa, and they need to fix that, because they have a real problem in that.Tomer:Actually looking at reviews as a let's call it [inaudible] and that your ability to analyze on scale, and have a really smart again NLP engine that can show you what customers are saying in slice and dice, it's fair. All the volumes per a customer behavior, per location, per segment is so, so important. You can get so much in product teams, marketing teams, service teams for sure. You can get to learn so much from it. I think that's a dataset that a lot of brands are not spending enough time looking at.Stephanie:Yeah. It makes me think gone are the days where you would have people come into a room, and they try out your product and you hear feedback. It's why. Now you can just get thousands of data points, use NLP, digest the data and figure out how to change your product going forward.Tomer:Exactly that.Stephanie:Makes it funny thinking about that. What about from a Yotpo perspective? What data do you want to get access to, to inform either your current products or new ones?Tomer:Something that we think about a lot is it's very clear that commerce is going to be like Omni channel. Or is. Some of it will be marketplaces. Most of it will be direct to consumers. Some of it, maybe it will be on social, some of it maybe will be on Google, who knows. Everyone is trying that transaction will happen now at Instagram, on Google shopping, or whatever. For us, it's how do you give more value when you sell on Amazon? How do we give more verdict? We just launched a partnership with Walmart that you can syndicate all your content with a click of a button. If you sell also on Walmart, all of your content will be there as well, so you'll sell more on watermark. For us, it's really about how do we take more data? We're now working with Facebook and Google on a bunch of really, really interesting stuff, and how do we just help you to be a better Omni channel brand? I think.Stephanie:What data then are you looking at to be a better omni-channel brand? What things are you tapping into that maybe you weren't able to a couple of years ago?Tomer:For us, with every new product that we add, there was a huge data injection. Just think about, let's take SMS and loyalty. It's so valuable that you have the two products under the same data platform that you can really for the first time send new SMS'es for just your loyal customers. Just your highest VIP tier, you want to send them an SMS because you know that SMS will convert the best because they are your most loyal customer. You can do that. I can tell you sending an SMS just saying, thank you, thank you, after someone referred a friend. You would be surprised how much that increased customer lifetime value. I always give our product team our ideal experience is let's say Stephanie, one store will start opening up again. Think about you going, buying at the store that you are one of the most loyal customers, buying a ThirdLove offline store once they'll have one, and then the second you walk out the door, you get an SMS, "Thank you for buying with us again. We really appreciate that."Tomer:How awesome is that? Who doesn't want to build that brand? I think from a data standpoint, the more products that we have, we really understand better the different segments of your customers, and make it easy for you to launch different campaigns. For us, SMS, for example, was a huge vision. That's something that we didn't have, a new execution layer. Loyalty was a huge addition. I think every product that we keep adding, we are learning much more on the brand. We're learning much more on the customers of the brand.Stephanie:I like that. It definitely seems there's a lot of room, especially for in-person retail experiences to complete that journey and to also be helpful as you walk into a store. But to a point where it doesn't get creepy where it's "I see you in the makeup aisle right now, and I would go with this one over that one," that's probably is taking it a little too far, but it still seems there's room for brands to interact more because I don't get many messages right now, and the ones that I do are very generic and not helpful. I sometimes wonder, why don't my, a customer service rep, take a picture and send it to me and be, Hope your day is going well." I think I would like something personal and funny like that, more than just come in and get 20% off today.Tomer:I can tell you what we're hearing now from brands is that they are sending so many generic SMS that they actually... an SMS is ... it's not a cheap channel. It's not like email. You need to actually pay for the message for the carrier. You really need to think carefully, “Okay, maybe for customers that gave me one star review, I need to ask a different SMS and send them, 'Hey, how can I change the experience? I'm sorry, what can we do?' versus customers that raved about the price, and maybe send them an SMS talking about a discount of customers that talk about the service, say send a picture of the customer service that helps them. That connectivity is I think what's really, really important.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. Where do you see the world of UGC in general transforming to over the next couple of years?Tomer:I think UGC will definitely move towards a place that how do you take the content you're able to create, and leverage that in multiple places in your email marketing, in your SMS marketing, on your social ads, on Walmart, on Amazon, on Etsy, wherever you are as a brand, how you interact with consumers, that's where you need UGC to be at. I think that's super, super important. The second thing is that, what do you understand from that UGC? That's something that I feel that as a company, we are just at the tip of the iceberg. There's so much to be done there because these are the most important signals from your customers. That's something that we are very, very excited about. The question is, will there be a new form of UGC? Stories, voice.Tomer:There's a lot of things that we play around with in our hackathons to really trying to help pave the way of what's next in UGC. I can tell you it's very early, like videos actually for now for us now is a new format that's also been growing really, really quickly. Will there be a new format? That's also really, really interesting.Stephanie:How do you view influencers versus UGC? Because the way the market's headed right now, I wonder if the whole influencer scene will start to die off, because people will keep wanting more authentic interactions and relationships, and they want to buy from people that feel more like them. How do you see influencers playing out all that?Tomer:The influencer is another really interesting field. First of all, I think it depends. Again, it's not a one size fits all. It really depends on, what do you want to achieve with influencers? I think people understand today that just giving the Kardashian your product doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to increase sale. They can really, really help, and you can see Kylie cosmetic. But the top influencer was actually building their own brands because they understand that's where the vast majority of revenue is, and that's something we see a lot in. Now you see micro influencers. I think you probably need to do both, and different purposes. I think a UGC is more let's say the basics. You need to have social proof. For me, influencer it's more about another channel like paid.Tomer:Like a Google ads, you now have influencer ads, if you want to influence attacks, and it works, and you need to do it very, very well, but it's actually not related to UGC. UGC it's the foundation of your brand. You cannot do Google ads, you cannot do influencer ads without it. I think in general influencer is really interesting, but I also think that brands and influencer today, they see that in order for it to work, they need to be authentic. Stephanie:I completely agree. All right. The last question before we jump into the lightning round, do you integrate with awesome platforms like our sponsor, Salesforce Commerce Cloud?Tomer:Yes, definitely. We are a big partner of Salesforce Commerce Cloud. We're actually I think one of the fastest growing solution on Salesforce Commerce Cloud at the moment, and they've been great partners of ours. We have really amazing brands. We started with reviews, now with loyalty, SMS is coming in just a few weeks I think. Yes, definitely. I think it's one of the best platform for the enterprises that we see in the market.Stephanie:I completely agree with that. With that, let's jump into the lightning round, which is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question, and you have 30 seconds or less to answer. Are you ready Tomer?Tomer:Of course. I was born ready.Stephanie:If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Tomer:What a great question. I think if I need to do a podcast, it will be just some great ecommerce stories, and I think just like one of the best people I know from the industry, his name is Scott Perry. He's now the leading everything related to ecommerce in Jerome, before that he was involved with furniture, he's just freaking awesome. He's just really, really awesome. The other one that I really, really love is actually Lauren from Shopify. He's another really awesome person to spend time. He basically found the Shopify plus.Stephanie:I like that. It might be a little competitive with our podcast. However, competition is healthy, so I'll accept it.Tomer:No, I think what you're doing by the way is super, super cool. It's really, really interesting, and anyone in ecommerce should ... these are exactly the type of content that people should be listened to, if you care about ecommerce.Stephanie:Thank you. I love that. Man, it's good thing I brought you on. What is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Tomer:The nicest thing that anyone ever done to me. I think definitely I'll say my wife. We have two young boys. She saw me in some really, really tough nights, and she was there to really help me pass through those tough nights. I would definitely give it to my wife.Stephanie:Shout out to your wife. I hope she listens to this. That's great.Tomer:Of course she will.Stephanie:Yeah, she will. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Tomer:I don't know. How do you get a crying baby to stop crying?Stephanie:I, after three boys, I still don't fully know that one. That's just a question that can't be answered.Stephanie:All right. The last one, what is the last ecommerce purchase you made that you're most excited about?Tomer:I'm actually super excited. I don't know if you can see my background, but I bought from a society six. It's one of our customers, and it's actually a great story to end with. I think I can share about the Yotpo culture. When we founded Yotpo, you know that how every startup is saying that they started at a basement and yada yada. Our office was a real basement, meaning it was an apartment building, you would go down, turn left. There was no lights, no nothing. Even for people that were willing to interview for two people start startup, we got some feedback that their office is too hardcore. We didn't have money for furniture, and we didn't know what to do. I stole for a different time. I had a bunch of Sesame street puppets at my apartment. So I brought them to the office and that started to be our vibes.Tomer:Then when we moved to a real office, we took them with us, and then when we started opening offices across the globe, people thought that they need to bring Sesame street stuff with them. Then when we moved to the home office in COVID, I said, "Okay, we need to bring Sesame street stuff." I bought from society six. We never forget where we coming from, where we came from. Sorry. I think that's maybe one of the things I'm most excited about, and I just bought ... Actually there's another one. Because I keep buying from our customers. That's my thing in life. I buy just from our customers. There's an Oura ring that helps you sleep better and analyze your sleep. I don't know if you're familiar with that.Stephanie:No. What's it called?Tomer:Oura ring. It's really, really ... I don't know if people can see, but it's-Stephanie:You can explain it to anyone who [inaudible].Tomer:It's a ring that basically tracks, with an app tracks, how you sleep, how you need to give you let's say guidance on how to better sleep. I'm super excited to test it. It just arrived today, and I'm going to test it. Excited about that.Stephanie:What things do you think it'll tell you? To sleep better, quarantine your kids off in a room where you can't hear them, or?Tomer:I wish. I wish someone would tell us that, yes, yes.Stephanie:You got that. Tell me how that works. That sounds awesome. Well, Tomer, thanks so much for joining the show. It's been a pleasure. Where can people find out more about you and Yotpo?Tomer:First of all, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure, and I think we in Yotpo are big fans of the podcast, by the way. We have a few episodes that we mentioned, it's actually a thing. You can just go to Yotpo if you want to meet personally. It's tomer@yotpo.com. It's nothing too special, and feel free to reach out.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Tomer:Thank you for having me.

Interacting with customers requires a level of finesse and talent that is beautiful when done well, and a tough sight when done poorly. There is give and take, and you have to flow through various movements and ups and downs to reach a satisfying end result. It’s like a dance. A tango if you will. At least, that’s how the folks over at LivePerson see it. Alex Spinelli is the CTO and EVP of product, technology, and operations at LivePerson, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he broke down what that dance should look like, and how A.I. is taking the lead.  As Alex explains, LivePerson is a set of tools, technologies and platforms that enable businesses to have conversations with customers through messaging channels, and to detect where customers may be getting stuck or frustrated. Then, with a small immediate intervention, LivePerson’s A.I. routes that customer to a human who can make the buying process easier. It is a way to get to a better end result more often, and it works. Businesses using LivePerson have seen double-digit-percentage-point improvement in conversions and higher NPS scores than ever. But the power of A.I. doesn’t end there, and Alex dives deep into where we are headed with A.I. as a tool in retail, including the blended in-person and virtual experiences that seem to be overlapping more than ever before. And Alex gets into the nitty-gritty of the ethics behind A.I. and how everyone will have to be more involved going forward when it comes to defining their limits, wants, and needs. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Joining Forces: The future of A.I. in the ecommerce space is in the way brands can join together an A.I. experience with a human-based one. The way brands should be looking at A.I. is as a conversation-starter and a tool that can solve transactional problems, but when a deeper conversation is needed, it should be able to usher customers through a seamless transition to a real person who can build a relationship, form trust, solve problems, and ensure that the customer experience is a good one the has a positive end result.Let’s Get Ethical!: With any new technology, there are ethical questions that have to be addressed. This is especially true when dealing with A.I. Not only do you have to take into account the repercussions that A.I. will have on the labor force, but you also have to consider how A.I. is being trained, what kind of biases are being programmed into the model, and how and when to start and stop collecting data to build bigger and better A.I. models.  Blend It Up: As we move further into the fourth industrial revolution, we are beginning to see more blending of virtual, digital, and physical experiences. Conversational technology will begin to follow us into physical stores and A.I., along with more targeting-types of technology, will be used in and out of stores.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today we have Alex Spinelli joining the show. He's the CTO at LivePerson. Alex, welcome.Alex:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. So I was looking through your background. And I was hoping we could kind of start with your days at Alexa, because I feel like there's probably a lot of good juicy stories there and I want to hear a bit about what was your role there? What did you do there? And then we can jump into the big topic around AI and your current product?Alex:Sure, sure. I led what we call the Alexa OS. And what that was, or is today, is really the core software platform that powers the Alexa experience, the brain. It included things like personalization, speaker recognition, so Alexa knows who's talking to her. And then all of the APIs and technologies, dialogue management, they really power the whole experience and allowed both internal developers at Amazon and skill builders, so skills are like apps for Alexa, to go and build those experiences. So it was really the cloud operating system for Alexa.Stephanie:So what drew you to that field and industry?Alex:Yeah, so I've always been pretty connected to AI, natural language, even going back to, I have a lot of roots in news, something I was pretty passionate about, in news technology. So at Thomson Reuters, for example, where I lead technology for news, both for real time news, algorithmic trading, and then also all the Reuters news properties and journalists, the tools that journalists use, I spent a lot of time trying to understand how do people consume information, how they read information, and how can digital and computers really help us find the most important things, gain insight from information, gain insight from data.Alex:So then I kind of took a little bit of a hiatus from news, and when I joined Amazon, I was leading search. So the whole experience for browsing and discovering the right product for you, and trying to optimize that, make it easier. And one of the things that was really interesting is, I started to see the limitations of these very flat experiences, search pages, web pages and apps. And people started to try to have a conversation with Amazon search. So they'd ask questions in search, is this product compatible with this one? What's the best gift for my daughter who's graduating high school? And all these interesting questions, and the experience often fell down. So we actually started looking at what we called query understanding and natural search and all these interesting things where we wanted to help people get answers to their questions and have a dialogue with the search experience.Alex:And I thought it was pretty hard. In the sort of traditional, I put in a query, I get a set of results, that interface just didn't work really well. Alexa at the time was just kind of quirky little device that was just launching at Amazon very early days, I actually had one, I was part of the early beta testing. And I said, "God, I want to be part of that. That actually is starting to recreate the way we're going to interact with our digital lives and we're going to use natural language. And I guess the rest is history. I think when I joined there was 20 or 30 people in the team. And again, it was this quirky little device that people were like, "What the hell is this thing? Is this going to be big?" And yeah, in six months, we sold millions of devices, and I was growing a team, and we were adding all kinds of new features and capabilities. And it was pretty much a rocket ship, which was pretty fun.Stephanie:That's awesome. I have Alexas throughout the house. I've always wondered though, how to get past that hurdle of, like when you're talking with someone, you are very free flowing and you'll ask any kind of questions. And I feel like oftentimes, with Alexa or any speaker that you would talk into, you're like, "Ah, ah, what can I ask? I don't know what to say. I don't know how to phrase it." And it feels like there's still a bit of a hurdle with a lot of conversational speakers to get past the getting you help kind of with anything, and being able to query things in a million different ways, so that you're not like me, where you're just like, "And I'm stumped and now I'm just going to open up the app on my phone and resort to the old way of doing things."Alex:Yes. So it's interesting, because that same challenge is what actually led me to LivePerson. So when I met my current boss, he was explaining what LivePerson was doing, which was really a messaging platform for customer service and sales. And he said, "Listen, we're really interested in taking things to the next level with AI." And my first response was, "I'm good. I'm at the hottest product on the planet." And Rob and I had known each other for years from New York and we had conversations earlier. I said, "I'm good."Alex:He said, "Well listen, there's an opportunity to take what you're doing at Amazon, creating these natural experiences, but actually democratize it and do it for companies all around the world, large and small, and really help consumers interact in a new way." And it kind of stuck with me. And I started, we had more and more conversations, and I ended up joining. And I think the key differentiation that you're seeing is, I think the smart speakers in that whole space, they aren very transactional, right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:They've kind of started to center around entertainment, home entertainment, smart home. And they are still fundamentally very, very, I ask for something, I get the result, I ask for something, I get the result. And what we're trying to do here, because we're working for all different businesses and companies, is allow you to have a full-fledged conversation to build a relationship with the things that are important to you in your life, your bank, your healthcare company, your insurance company — Industries that tech and AI have tended to ignore, like, "Those are big, boring, you can't change them." And I think the problem is we've kind of leaned into these proxies of relationship building, apps, well, you can't build a... You and I are having a conversation. I didn't send you the A.L.E.X. app and say, "Here, you can get any answer to any question, you can click and browse and tap and search, and you'll get..."Alex:You didn't send me your app. We're having a dialogue and a conversation. What's crazy is businesses have put the app, they've actually done that crazy thing. They've said, "Oh, no, don't talk to us. Don't have a conversation with us here, use our app, use our website." And what we want to do is actually do exactly what you described, have that fluid conversation, build a real relationship. And the key for us, and this is where I think the smart speakers fall down, is humans have to be involved as well. So you can't get stuck. The AI is not going to be able to solve every dialogue.Alex:So the way we look at the world is the AI as a kind of concierge in many ways, and begins and initiates the dialogue and conversation for simple things like play music, do this, do that, AI can do it. But then when you really need to have a more meaningful conversation, we want to connect you with the right person. And Alexa can't do that, because just the scale wouldn't work. It's just for Amazon, where I think when you start thinking about democratizing AI, we can actually start to do that and make it a useful tool, not just for the consumer, but also for the employees of the business.Stephanie:Yep. I mean, now it seems like it's the perfect time too, because I think through the past five years or so, and it seems like we've kind of gone through a period where everything had to be optimized, you don't want to have support centers, you've got bots everywhere, you can do drop shipping now, you don't need brands, you don't need... Just white label products, we went through this phase, and now we're kind of coming out on the other side where people are like, "I don't really want to talk just to a bot, I want to talk to a person. If I instantly want to call, I want to be able to have someone there. And it seems like now consumers' expectations have changed where it's like we're a little bit there, we were getting used to just, "Okay, I'll just talk to the chat and see if it fixes it." And now it seems like expectations are so much higher than they even were just a couple years ago.Alex:I think part of that is this digital was growing due to convenience, right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:We were buying large bulk things. We were buying simple things. We were buying more toothpaste, more batteries, more this, more that. And as we started to need to use digital, and now in the pandemic, obviously, need to, have to, no other way, for all the things in our life. Yeah, we want to actually connect those things to values, our values, right? So the brands matter. The business matters, what does that brand stand for? What are the values that they stand behind? So I do think you're right, I think the need for developing a real relationship is important.Alex:And if you look at, actually it's interesting, banks, telcos, all these kind of big, stodgy, old businesses, or at least we used to think of them that way, or kind of were perceived that way, they kind of lost their differentiation, right? A banking app is a banking app is a banking app, they all look the same, feel the same, act the same. But not all banks are the same, they have different values, they have different missions.Alex:And without being able to talk and have a conversation, you don't get to connect your values to where you're putting your money. So I think that's the shift. I think people now care. They're spending all their dollars in the digital world, by and large. Even the restaurants, who's delivering? Is it Postmates? Is it Uber? Is it Grubhub? It matters. We want to support the right business who has the values that we share. So yeah, I think it's really important. A connection is super important.Stephanie:Yep. I also think a lot about retail. A lot of people probably do miss those experiences of going in stores and having someone there to ask questions to, and now that just needs to be mimicked more in the digital space where people are like, "Well, I can't," or maybe they can start to now, but for a while there, you couldn't go in and have your normal conversations and ask where things were. I mean, I go all the time, and I'll be like, "What kind of wine do you like? Just tell me what you like. I'll buy whatever you tell me because I don't know." And I miss that. And I was looking for that. But oftentimes it was lacking in the digital world. So-Alex:Yeah, so I think developing the tools to allow the... Brands are made of people, and enabling people to actually come through the digital world and connect is exactly what you're saying. Yeah, we thrive that human experience. I mean, we desire that human experience.Stephanie:Yeah. So tell me a little bit deeper about what is LivePerson? Because I'm hearing it is like it's essentially conversational AI for any industry, it's not just focused on commerce, it can be banking, it can be anywhere, is that the right way to think about it? Or maybe I'll let you describe it better.Alex:Yeah, so at our core, at our roots, it's a set of tools, technologies, platforms, that enable you as a business to actually have conversations with your customers through messaging channels. So this is the way we've all started to interact with one another. My daughter and I don't talk on the phone as much, it's all messaging, but I can talk to her all day long, right? Because it's asynchronous, it's on my time, it's on her time, she can be in class, I can be in this meeting, we can start a conversation and continue it. So the core offering is letting businesses do that. So giving those interactions back to the consumer on their schedule. And then we start to layer on a lot of intelligence.Alex:So a lot of those conversations can be led by an AI to gather information, to do the simple things, to actually help you with, what's your name, what's your account number, what's your size, reset my password, pay my bill, lots of things that really become kind of very rote. And then you start to really get more and more advanced in enabling you to shop, enabling you to buy, enabling you to transact. And the whole platform lets you never get stuck. So you can have a conversation, it can be part of an automation, you can be looking at a product, you can be asking questions to a bot about the size, color, compatibility, etc. And then when you get stuck, we can actually detect that and route you immediately to a person, a real human being that can help you. And we call that the tango. So it's this-Stephanie:I like that.Alex:... beautiful dance that allows us to go back and forth. And that's really, I think, where we excel. And then just from a technical perspective, we wrap all of that with a set of analytics and tools that even if you're a small business, you can use to look at the health of those conversations, how's it going? Is it making you money? Is it costing you more? How's your customer satisfaction? And those kinds of things. So it's a pretty full suite of tools to build a new kind of customer experience.Stephanie:That's awesome. So what kind of results do you see? Especially around commerce, when it comes to, like you said, you're doing the tango, you're sending them over to a customer service person. What would you see, otherwise? I'm sure losing that customer and not converting to a sale, are there any metrics that you guys have that you can share?Alex:Yeah, so it definitely is industry dependent and customer dependent. And we tend not to share direct customer numbers. But this is why I joined, the results are crazy. And so when Rob and I were talking about me joining LivePerson, he said that, "We're kind of onto something where we see costs go down, customer satisfaction go up, NPS go up, conversion rates go up, and agent turnover, or sales agent turnover go down." And I said, "There's no way all those metrics can be moving in the positive direction." Usually, there's trade offs. But right now, that's what we're seeing.Alex:So we do see conversion rates for conversations to be often double digit percentages better than experiences that didn't have. So if you were interacting in an app or a website, and we detect that you might be stuck, you might be jumping back and forth between pages, we'll actually offer like, "Hey, it looks like you might be having... Do you have a question? Do you have a problem?" And then we'll have that dialogue and that conversation.Alex:And that might be a tangoed conversation mixed and matched between an AI and a human. And we see conversion rates of those dialogues, again, double digit percent. There's a large big box retailer whose conversion rates typically exceed over 15% when a conversation is initiated. And a typical conversion rate on web shopping is single digits, mid to 5%, 6%. So significant increases when you actually connect and have a dialogue are pretty common for us.Stephanie:Wow, that's cool. So if I'm a brand-Alex:Yeah, it's pretty powerful.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, it sounds amazing. It sounds like, why wouldn't someone use something like this? If I'm a brand, and I'm thinking about setting this up, would you be tapping into my customer support people who are trained my way and then you're like, you train the AI, you got the questions in there, the answers, you kind of map all that out, you've got your database, and then you're constantly learning, I'm assuming, from what people are saying and what's actually helpful. And then, when you go into the tango mode, it goes over to your customer service people, or how does that work?Alex:So our tooling, mostly, is used directly by the brand. So you're a brand, our technology sits inside, I mean it's SaaS base technology, but it sits inside your contact center. Actually, the way we typically will train AI, it's actually pretty cool, you have human conversations first, and you don't need many. So you actually start to have human to human conversations. And then just in a few weeks, we can actually collect enough data to go and build the best intents. So intent is, as you're having a natural language discussion and an AI is detecting what you need. So an intent is the thing that you want, I want to pay a bill, I want to buy that product. Is this product compatible? Does this come with batteries? Whatever have you. Those are all intents.Alex:So those intents are basically derived from your real customer conversations. So the accuracy ends up being very high. And we've actually built the whole series of proprietary data models that are very industry specific. So in retail, in airlines, in banking, in insurance, we can actually have some really high accurate recognition. And again, those intents can be recognized for human conversations, so that we can tell the agent exactly what's going on and what this person needs. And then they're also used to go and build those AI driven experiences.Alex:And the goal is, can we take all the mundane repeatable stuff away from the agents? So the agents are really closing the sale, they're really helping tough problems. And this is why you see agent satisfaction go up, because they're not doing the rote, same, same, same, same conversations, all that's done by the AI. And then the agents actually having a kind of much more high bandwidth interaction.Stephanie:Like doing the creative work, where they can think and solve- [crosstalk]Alex:Exactly.Stephanie:... problems. And I mean, I think it comes back to, for a while there, everyone's like, "AI is going to take our jobs." It's like, "No, it's augmenting your jobs. And it's doing the things that you probably don't want to do anyways. But now you just get to work on higher level things," I would think.Alex:We do see that. And it's interesting, we see the wait times... So rather than waiting for 30 minutes, you actually wait for very little time. And then that agent can actually spend the time and energy to have a, just like you said, a much more creative high bandwidth conversation. So we don't see this, "Yeah, take..." It's changing jobs, it's augmenting jobs, it does require some new training, for sure. But at least right now, it's not this job killer, it actually opens up the world for new jobs. We actually are converting agents to data annotators.Alex:So agents in real time can actually go and label conversations and data to improve the AI. So it's actually advancing their roles in some ways. Again, I'm not going to be naïve, there will come a time where automation and those kinds of things do impact jobs at scale. I think we as responsible business people need to think about what's the next thing, right? And what's the next set of opportunities. So I'm hopeful in general, we are pretty hopeful and positive on where we can get to, but I think we have to kind of wade in very open eyed and make sure we do the right thing as we go forward.Stephanie:Yeah, so when thinking about doing the right thing, I think it'd be good to get a little lay of the land of the AI field in general, because I feel like it's had a pretty bumpy couple of years, just I mean, so many headlines were made around unintended consequences of using AI models, labeling things incorrectly. There's just been a lot out there. So what does it look like now? And especially in the world of commerce, how do we think about, where is AI even being utilized properly, or misused? And where could it be in a couple years? Or where should it be?Alex:The biggest challenge with AI is bias. And I'll explain what that means. So some of the bias is deliberate, some is not deliberate, or intentional and unintentional. So AI is only as good as the data. So what AI is, at the end of the day, it's a tool that allows you to look at lots and lots of data, examples. And then you build a model, mathematical model, statistical model, that makes certain assumptions based on the examples. And so if you were trying to make an AI service that would recognize oranges, this is when I used to meet people in person at South by Southwest to give a talk, I put this big, gnarly looking orange on the screen. It was not orange, it was mostly white and moldy and green. And I'd asked the audience, "Who knows what this is?" And 95% of people would raise their hand, I'd say, "What is it?"Alex:And everyone knew it was an orange. No one saw an orange [inaudible] anything like that. Unless you went on vacation and left an orange on your counter for like three weeks, then you maybe have seen an orange like that. But everyone instantly recognized it, right? So really what's happening is very similar to AI, you've seen thousands of oranges in your life. So there's a bunch of features of an orange, little dimples, the skin, the [inaudible] possible colors, it's round. And your brain immediately matched that image to this archetype of an orange, even though you've never seen an orange that looks like that. That's really what AI is doing. So if you have a bad data set, if you showed a young kid, many, many different images of things that weren't oranges, but you told them it was an orange, right?Alex:When that image would pop, they might not recognize it, they might not be able to tell what it was, or they might misrecognize something else and call it an orange. So the data under AI can inherently have bias by where we collect it from. So if we're trying to collect data to recognize a certain type of person, or a certain type of behavior, or a certain type of language, if we don't have a representative data set from the right populations, the AI is going to be biased, it's going to be biased based on that data set. Or if humans label that data, and those humans come from a certain one kind of homogenous background, they might label the data with their own biases. Again, that could be unintentional, but everyone brings their own unconscious biases with them.Alex:Or lastly, engineers, when they build AI models have their own biases, too. They think certain things are important and other things are unimportant. Simple kind of innocuous examples, if you're building a trading system, and you thought the weather really had an importance on stock prices, so that engineer would build weather as being a heavily weighted variable, that's a bias. So the key actually is recognizing all the ways that biases can creep in and creating some standards, and then really having the tools and process in your company to actually recognize those, and ask the question, and make sure that you're doing all the things that you need to do to eliminate that. That bias is what we've seen in some of these horror stories around AI.Alex:And it was kind of rushing headlong into it and not really thinking deeply about it. So there's actually some great organizations that... We actually took the EqualAI pledge as a company. So there's a nonprofit called EqualAI, that is working with industries to try to eliminate bias in AI. Or I should probably rephrase, not eliminate, but really try to mitigate. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fully mitigate-Stephanie:Or eliminate.Alex:Eliminate, sorry, yep. It's just super important, and it's actually the right thing. It's good for your business. It's good for your employees, it's just something we have to do, ethical use of any new powerful tool, no matter what it is, you have to actually consider those things. So I think that's the key challenge right now. And I think we're still in the early, early days of really grappling with it.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, it seems like too, right now, a lot of models will have to be thrown away because they were all trained on a set of consumers that are still there, but now there's all these new consumers who's come on the market that were never shopping online before, never doing their grocery shopping online. And we had a really good guest from Stitch Fix, she was the VP of data science there. And she was like, the way that the older generation, who's now trying out Stitch Fix, wants to talk with us is very different than how we were talking with millennials. And so you have to start rethinking about, do I keep my model and adjust it? Do I just throw it out and start over? And it seems like a tricky point now, because you just had this big inflow of new consumers that you never really were talking with before last year.Alex:Yeah, I have a 14-year old. And it's been an interesting journey as most of his communication has really moved online, and the words and terminology and no cap and sus and all these funny terms. They need to be built in to model. So your VP at Stitch Fix is 100% correct. And we need to go and deal with that. And I don't know if it's about throwing away, I think it's more about augmenting and building on top of. The good news is the influx is a big number of people coming, and those large numbers can actually improve the models pretty quickly, if the number that you're starting with was smaller. But it's something we actually, because we live and breathe natural language, we actually have to stay on top of really, really regularly. And yeah, this is going to be the perennial challenge. This is where actually that, remember I talked about I'm transforming agent roles?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:So one of the things that we've looked at and we've just actually released this, it's pretty cool, is the agents, as they're having conversations, can label the intents and they can actually improve intents, and they can actually retag intents and all this kind of stuff. And so we believe, and this is where I think we are changing roles, not eliminating, the agents know your products, they know your language, they know the markets you're operating in, they talk to your customers every day, and they're the ones that are going to be best positioned to kind of add and augment those models, so it's actually really important to have them as part of that process.Stephanie:Oh, that's really interesting, that they can do that now. And I could see it being really helpful too, because I have heard that oftentimes, models can also, like you said, train themselves and turn into a black box where it's like they keep ingesting the wrong data, wrong data, and then you build up maybe algorithms that, I remember at certain companies I used to work at, you kind of didn't know what was in there, at a certain point, you're like, "I don't know how it's working. I don't know why it's working this way." How much data do you need? Is there ever a point where you're like, "That's enough, let's stop. Only collect it this many times." Because right now, it feels like we're in a world of like, just get as much as you can and ingest as much as you can. Which seems like it could maybe have unintended consequences.Alex:Agreed. But explainability is still a big problem with AI. So there's a startup for folks out there listening, create some technology that offers introspection and explainability to large machine learn models. It's not a solved problem. And I don't have a good answer, actually, when do you have enough, when don't you have enough? I think you need to constantly benchmark, constantly look at your accuracy, and have all the protections in place that you are looking for that bias, you are looking for those negative consequences. And that's hard work. That's not like putting some technology gaps in place and a threshold, that's really having a dialogue internally, asking the questions, turning over rocks, what could be the negative consequences here? It's kind of active management right now, and it really needs to be baked into your kind of culture, that it's something that you focus on.Stephanie:Yeah, definitely agree there. So what kind of opportunities do you see? Where do you think conversational commerce should be in the next one to three years? Or what do you think is going to start happening?Alex:So I think the big opportunity right now is actually the topic of our chat is more commerce, like real shopping, real purchasing, real buying, I think conversational commerce, primarily over the last number of years, has been sort of sat in that care, support, follow up space. And now because digital is a necessity, not a convenience, we're starting to see, like I said before, all the little breakage and the flat experiences. So I think the big opportunities are around how can we really help people discover?Alex:So discovery is really hard. With Alexa, for example, you don't know what Alexa can do and can't do, and those kinds of [inaudible]. Discovery is that still a big challenge. Huge opportunity there. It's how do you stitch conversations together with discovery? And to me, that's all about actually modeling the behaviors that we would have in real life. So we're going to go back to stores, we're going to go back to malls, they're going to be changed up, they're going to be very different. I think we're going to see conversations in the digital world follow us in and try to fill in the gaps and start to really help us in a much more kind of blended way. So there's something called the Fourth Industrial Revolution, if you really want to geek out. It's this-Stephanie:Oh, yeah, we've talked about this before-Alex:Oh, cool. Yeah.Stephanie:... on a lot of our other podcasts.Alex:It's this blending of the virtual and physical. Yeah. So I think the big opportunities are in real commerce, and how do we start to blend the physical and the virtual? So we see, for example, especially during COVID, blending conversations with curbside pickup, I'm ready, I'm here, are you here? I want to add this, can you get me... So really trying to fill in all those gaps in those interactions and exchanges. So I think that's where a lot of the kind of next stage plays, is we're going to see conversations start to power a lot more of our transactions and commercial activities, and starting to blend together that physical and virtual, that's where we're spending a lot of our time.Stephanie:That's cool. I mean, so what kind of tech advancements are needed, because I'm even thinking about that Fourth Industrial Revolution and blending that, and okay, if you're walking to a store, I mean, I know there was a while there where store owners were hesitant to even install the beacons so that you would know who's coming in your store. And there was a lot of hangups when it came to retail that didn't allow the digital world to interact with them, because you had to have hardware infrastructure changes, there was a lot needed there. So what kind of things are needed for that advancement to take place?Alex:Yeah, well, a bunch of things. I mean, these things have basically become supercomputers, right? These are more powerful than even the biggest machines 10, 15 years ago. So they're going to take on more and more of the processing. I think image recognition, big space. And then I think a lot of that starts to wrap together the privacy concerns, so giving control back to the consumer about what data I share and when based on my needs and what I want to do. So that's where I think you're going to see a lot of technology advancement is, yes, beacons. Yes, image recognition. Yes, the kind of blending of conversations and in person and then live and all these kinds of things and trying to, like I said, stitch that experience together.Alex:But if I were, again, entrepreneurs out there and technology companies, I would look at those for sure, but I think we also have this kind of renewed interest in privacy and what targeting is. And we can do a whole soapbox, if you want, on the evils of free social media and the hyper targeting, I think there needs to be legislation to almost eliminate some of that, because what we've allowed companies to do is extreme content and extreme information can find audiences now, because the audience is basically free, they just [inaudible]. So I think trying to really understand who I share my data with, why I share my data with, and I'm sharing it only for the purpose that I want, is another whole area of technology that we need to focus on. These are the things at least we're working on, that we feel pretty passionate about.Alex:And then in terms of very specific technologies, I think the combination of conversations with location and image recognition, are going to start to be really interesting, right? Because I'm going to be looking at something, I want to verify something, I want to validate something with a conversation and a dialogue. And a lot of it's going to be dependent about where I am. So we're trying to figure out how those intersect in the right way.Stephanie:Yeah. How do you approach it in a way that garners trust from the consumer? Because I feel like there's been a lot of times, even me personally, if I know I'm talking to a computer, I'm like, "Nope, I'm good." Because I've had so many bad experiences, or I've mentioned it a couple times, you call in to like Verizon, it's like... Pretending to type, like... And you're like, "This is so fake, and I don't like this." And then they can't even help me either. So how do you go about it in a way that informs the person that you're not really talking to a person right now, but still keeps them incentivized to want to try and work that method, if they've kind of been burned in the past?Alex:I think there's two topics there. One, both of them, we have pretty strong opinions about. First, an AI should always identify itself as AI and not try to pretend it's a human. I actually think we'll see legislation on that. Because I think it's bad. And I think a couple of things, even their practical issues with it too, you speak differently than you do to human than you do to an AI or a bot. And it's better if you know for everybody, it's actually better even for the AI builder to know that you know because the model is going to be different, interestingly. So there's actually a real practical reason. But I think there's a lot of ethical reasons, is I should know who I'm speaking to, and what I'm speaking to. That's one.Alex:Two, I think that the gatekeepers, the Facebooks of the world, that want to kind of screen everyone and operate as these Uber, Uber marketplaces that they control the traffic flow, I think we as consumers are going to start to have very negative... I mean, we've started in terms of perception. But I think there's going to be a continued backlash on that. And I think you want to know that if you're into dealing with Verizon, you want to deal with Verizon, you want to deal with this company, you want to deal directly with that company. So, again, we feel really strongly about that, we don't sell data, we work on behalf of the brand, there's no targeting, there's no selling data, there's no advertising.Alex:So I think we're going to see a return to kind of truer commercial relationships. Now, we've benefited, we've gotten all this free stuff by selling our behaviors, we don't sell our data, by the way, we sell our behaviors, right? We sell behavioral changes to Facebooks and Googles of the world. And I think we're going to stop doing that. And I think we have to stop, we have to pay for the things that would give us value, and then we know what we're paying for and we understand how our data is going to be used. And I think that's really, really important. And I think we're going to see a shift over the next year or two, for sure. For sure, in terms of what people want.Stephanie:Yeah, so a lot of brands are probably hearing this and are nervous because of all the changes that are happening with Facebook and privacy rules. And many of them have been very reliant on search ads and Facebook. So what do you see customer acquisition looking like if you kind of can't rely or maybe shouldn't rely on those channels, and now people are maybe opting out of sharing all their data, even though it's still pretty hard to opt out. It's like, you either accept it or [crosstalk] look at a website. Like, "Okay, I guess I'll just accept." But how do you see it working for brands where it's like, "Well, most of my traffic was coming from Facebook. And now that's not really the world we're going to be living in." Is that kind of targeting and traffic and customer acquisition?Alex:Yeah, I mean, there's still going to be these aggregate places, I think they're not going to be eliminated. So our view is moving from a stream and target the stuff at me to enabling people to express their desires, their intents. And then businesses honestly, basically, applying for, "Hey, here's something that based on what you've asked for, we may have." And so I think the user acquisition, I don't have the answer to, if I did, I'd probably start that company, or we would be doing it here at LivePerson, but I think that there will be kind of a flipping the model on its head a bit, right?Alex:So rather than this idea of, I can have some type of content, because I think the ills that we've seen have come from this model, I can have some kind of content, I want to get 50,000 people for a very, very, very low cost, I can go and target those 50,000 people, who don't know about me and who I think have a proclivity to me, and I can go get them. So that was good for small business in some ways, right?Stephanie:Yeah.Alex:You can actually build businesses online. It's bad for lots of other reasons. It's also as a consumer, that you're being introduced to something that... Like the whole serendipity introduction is neat when you're on Etsy, because you know what it is [inaudible], it's not neat when it could be anything. So I think we're going to start to ask consumers to express their needs, and like, what do you want? What are you looking for? Can you define kind of your ecosystem of things that you like and appreciate? And then we're going to ask your permission to actually bring others too. And you're going to set standards, like, "I really only want to hear from companies that have certain social stances, or I only want to hear from companies that have certain environmental stances."Alex:So I think it's really all about empowering the consumer to kind of define, it's a little more work, and I think that's the thing that's going to be interesting to see. Because I think we as consumers have gotten very lazy, it's just like, "I want to scroll and you're going to send me stuff." I think we're going to have to be asking consumers for a little bit more work to define those things and tell us more, so that we can give them things that are much more open, honest and transparent.n again, I don't know what the format it's going to look like, right now-Stephanie:I'm thinking of a whole new browser right now. Just need a whole new browser that operates in that way, because right now it's like, where do you get all those ads and everything? It's from your own Chrome, you're on Safari. But it seems like you need a whole new world for it to operate in that way.Alex:So we're actually experimenting with, call it a messenger, but I wouldn't kind of categorize it that way, that it is intent driven. So you define, I'm looking for X, Y and Z, almost think of the kind of anti Alexa in some ways where it's not just this transactional thing, I want to play this music and turn this thing on, it's much more, I'm looking for this, I need this. And you understand the ecosystem of services and providers that actually can come together, all permission based, all about transparency. Early days, kind of experimenting and thinking it through, and talking to a lot of partners and companies also, because I don't think we're alone. I think many, many folks think there needs to be a change here, and we need to figure it out together.Stephanie:Yep. So we've had a debate on the show a couple of times about this whole trend of shopping on the edge, which to me seems like kind of where you guys are headed up, like being able to have conversations kind of wherever you are. How are you thinking about where people are shopping now? Do you see it moving to being on Instagram, being within Facebook Messenger, being on Tik Tok and being able to have those conversations there from the brand and selling on those platforms, and less about driving directly to one single website, or just on Amazon?Alex:So I do think this idea of the destination starts to fade. I do think that brands will be able to speak to you wherever you are, right? Again, I think it needs to be permission based. I think it needs to be based on your intent. But I do think brand... It's funny. I mean, the idea that you don't have a website sounds insane, right? If you're a company, but what was a website 20 years ago? Nobody had a website really. The brand found you where you were, you saw the store, you looked in different magazines, you saw them on different television channels advertise. It was a much more organic process.Alex:And these gatekeepers have become very, very dominant. And again, I think if that changes where we're not willing to give away our behaviors anymore, or sell our behaviors anymore, then I do think you'll start to see brands engage in ways across all the places you live and breathe. Again, should be permission based, for sure. So I do think this shopping on the edge is kind of funny because isn't that where we all did years ago?Stephanie:Yeah, but now we're back. In the digital world though.Alex:Exactly. But that's where we're going to... The Fourth Industrial Revolution kind of back again is like, I think all these things start to blend together and we don't want, we don't want these kind of singular locations and gatekeepers, I think we're going to start to see different properties have different purposes based on what we're in the mood for, what we need. It's interesting, I think the biggest thing that I would leave you with, and leave listeners to, is digital was convenient. It is now a necessity. There's not more meaningful things that can shape change in terms of the format of an experience and the business models. And I don't think we're going to go back, I don't think we're going to go back to what was before, there's going to be something new, and that [inaudible] is what's really going to drive a lot of it. So I think you're going to have to as a brand be where people are.Stephanie:Yeah, which sounds chaotic for me.Alex:And this idea that people are... It sounds chaotic, but I actually think it democratizes things, I actually think it means that we can eliminate some of these gatekeepers who make billions and billions of dollars on our behaviors, which I think would be a good thing in the world.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have 30 seconds or less to answer. Are you ready, Alex?Alex:Sure.Stephanie:All right. First one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Alex:So I'm sorry to repeat, but the fact that digital is now a necessity, I think is going to have one of the biggest impacts, for sure.Stephanie:That's all right. You're allowed to repeat on this show. You can do whatever you want. Let's see, what is something that you believe that many people don't agree with you on?Alex:I'm hopeful. I do a lot of these podcasts, I get a lot of scary questions. I don't go there, you're not going to get me there. I think-Stephanie:[crosstalk]Alex:No. No, you didn't. You didn't. This has been fun and positive, which is great. I really enjoyed it. I'm hopeful about the future, I actually think AI is going to be a powerful tool of change, positive change. I don't think it's going to kill everyone's jobs. I actually think we're going to find new ways to make it augment and enhance us in ways we don't even expect. So I guess in the AI space, in Big Tech space, I spend a lot of time talking, I hear a lot of fear and the sky is falling. And I guess I don't think that way. I think I'm pretty uplifted and positive about what the future is to come.Stephanie:I love that. I'm on the same page. Normally-Alex:Good, yeah, I can get that.Stephanie:... [crosstalk] all that stuff. Yeah, you can get us on a space. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Alex:I don't understand, and I think about it all the time and debate it all the time, and I'm not going to go all political on you, I don't understand the device of this right now, that we can't find ways to communicate and talk and debate real issues to find solutions. We like to divide. And I'm kind of confused by it, to be honest.Stephanie:Do you ever just look back at your news and media days and be like, "That's the stem of it, a lot of it." Like the targeting and the way articles are written. Oh, man.Alex:Yeah, I don't know. I think it's easy to go blame the media. I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know. I don't know. Are we at peak Western civilization and there's always a crest in your fall? Maybe, that could be it. And I'm part of that problem, probably. I don't know. But I'm confused by it. It's something- [crosstalk]Stephanie:I'd like to see that change. That would be nice to see, [inaudible] everyone just come together in love, like the yellow debate, in a friendly manner. That would be nice.Alex:Yeah. And I think we'll get through it. So I am still positive about the future, I think. But I'm confused by the current state of it.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Same. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? And who would your first guest be?Alex:If I were to have a podcast, it would probably be a little bit far from tech. It would be about how we bring magic back into our lives.Stephanie:Oh, I like that.Alex:Yes.Stephanie:You need the Alex Spinelli show.Alex:A little journey I'm on. Yeah, the little journey I'm on. I started going to Burning Man a number of years ago, and there's just an infectiousness of [inaudible] in wonder and magic and art, and dancing in the desert, into your life. And I think more people need to dance in the desert at sunrise.Stephanie:I love that. That's great. All right. And then the last thing, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Alex:The nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. I have a pretty amazing group of friends and family, so I got a lot of nice things done for me.Stephanie:You're a lucky dude.Alex:I am lucky. I really do appreciate it. I think my wife marrying me is probably the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. It changed my life and it's been wonderful.Stephanie:Go her.Alex:She's amazing.Stephanie:We've had a couple of guys say that on the show, which is so sweet. I'm always like, "I hope your wife listens to this then."Alex:I'm lucky. She's amazing.Stephanie:That's awesome. Well, Alex, it's been such a pleasure having you on. Yeah, I love the conversation. Where can people find out more about you and LivePerson?Alex:Yeah, I think you start on liveperson.com. And there's plenty on me on LinkedIn and our various social media. So I look forward to it.Stephanie:That sounds great. Thanks so much.Alex:Yeah. You got it. Thank you.

By now we’ve all heard about the thousands of businesses that pivoted to ecommerce in the wake of the pandemic last year. What we haven’t heard as much are the lessons both companies and consumers have learned in the process.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I was excited to dive into those lessons and more with Israel “Iz” Moreira, the co-CEO of Doughp, a company that sells edible (and delicious) cookie dough. Prior to 2020, Doughp relied heavily on its brick-and-mortar stores and the foot traffic they delivered. But Iz saw potential in expanding the company through ecommerce channels, and, luckily, laid the groundwork for the infrastructure for that pivot even before COVID-19 forced Doughp to shutter its retail doors. With a now fully-online company, Doughp has started to centralize and increase its shipping capabilities and has seen success, but it wasn’t a cake (or should I say, cookie dough) walk. Iz explains some of the hardships Doughp faced on its journey to ecommerce success, including how little information-sharing there still is in the business world when it comes to cold shipping. Plus he dives into the recent revelations he’s discovered about whether free shipping actually matters as much as you think it does. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Secrets Are No Fun: Multiple players in the ecommerce space have reported struggles in optimizing the logistics of cold shipping. Some have figured it out on their own, while others have known the answers all along and have been keeping them close to the vest. Competitive advantages are still alive and well in the business world, so the level of information sharing when it comes to cold storage is still quite low in order for places like grocery stores and meal preppers to maintain their edge.Lead With Mission: Depending on your industry, you should be thinking about how to best reach customers in a differentiated way. Testing is required to find the right strategy, so don’t be afraid to experiment with personalization and messaging. And if you are in a more commoditized industry, finding that one thing that separates you from the rest of the pack is going to be the difference between a customer choosing you or not.Does Free Shipping Matter?: While 2020 was a struggle for most, there were some bright sides, including the education of consumers on the world of shipping and logistics. As more consumers became educated on the hardships businesses face when it comes to shipping and handling, the customers have become more willing to pay for shipping.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, your number one spot for all things ecommerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today, I'm chatting with Israel Moreira AKA Is. Welcome to the show.Israel:Hey, thank you for having me, Stephanie. Nice to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on here. I'm excited to have a company on here called Doughp, which I've said now multiple times, "Why was I not innovative enough to create a company called Doughp?"Israel:Yeah, I have to give full credit to Kelsey though. She was the marketing brain behind this brand. So, it's really interesting. Coming from Brazil, Doughp was not part of my English skill. So, when I first heard it, I was like, "Wait, what is this?" And then it makes sense.Stephanie:So, maybe let's start there before we dive into what Doughp is and your role there. Tell me a bit about coming from Brazil. When did you come over to the US? Why? What was that process like?Israel:Yeah, for sure. So, I have a civil engineering background. I went to school for civil engineering, started working in construction in about 2010, 2011, some time ago, and eventually became a project manager for a construction firm in Brazil. I loved working in construction per se, because of all the changes and all the new stuff going on around. Being a project manager is really relevant in any industry. You can just transfer that skill set across multiple industries. So, I love doing that, but living in Brazil was not something that fulfill me per se. I would say, safety in Brazil, public education, public health, everything you hear in the news here about third world countries, most of it is true.Israel:So, being raised there, my parents always told me like, "Oh, if you ever have an opportunity to leave and study abroad, just go do it. All the other countries out there, they're way better for you to have a better career." So, I had that mindset built into me in my upbringing. Israel:So, in 2015, I decided to make the change. I did a backpacking trip to the United States and Canada, because I wanted to be in an English speaking country. English was always my second language. So, I was like, "Well, I've got to go during the winter and find out if I can withstand the winter and the place that I'm going," because the summer is fine, right? I was born and raised under the sun. So, I did this backpacking trip of 30 days going across the US and Canada, which was awesome, but it led me to find out that I wanted to be in Berkeley in California. So, I applied to a course there, an international student course that gave me the ability to stay here studying business management and marketing, which were not my strong suits.Israel:I was always a project manager. So, I wanted to know how to manage a business. The marketing side, because I'm so focused on operations and finances, was never my strong suit. So, I wanted to be a little better in that regard. And then after studying here, I was able to secure a job in San Francisco, which my head was just blown away by that. Yeah, eventually just stay here, working in SF, and then the love story begins between me and Kelsey. But after working for Product School, which was a company I was working for in SF, I joined Kelsey at Doughp.Stephanie:Yup. So, Kelsey founded Doughp, which is a raw cookie dough bar, but it doesn't have raw eggs in there, right? Is that the right way to explain it, or maybe you can do it better justice?Israel:No, that's correct. I like it. It does not have any raw eggs. We use heat-treated flour. So, it's super safe for consumption. So, the whole idea of this is to bring nostalgia by the scoop. So, you just probably grew up here trying to eat the cookie dough that your mom or somebody in your family was baking. Everybody was saying, "No, you can't eat it, because of the eggs and you're going to get salmonella and whatever." So, Kelsey did found Doughp in 2017 to solve that problem. It's an interesting story as well, because in 2015, she became sober. She was struggling with alcohol, working for Intel for 10 years. In becoming sober, she rediscovered her passion for baking.Israel:So, she just launched Doughp in 2017. In 2018, she started the Pier 39 store that she used to have in San Francisco. It was a rocket ship, I got to say. She then launched in Oracle Park in a kiosk. And then in 2019, Doughp opened the store at the Las Vegas Strip. So, in 2019, Doughp have basically three brick-and-mortar operating stores.Stephanie:That's awesome. So, everything was brick-and-mortar at that point. When did you enter into the company? What year was it? What does your role look like as Co-CEO versus what Kelsey works on?Israel:Right. So, let me start with the second question, the Co-CEO role. Kelsey and I have very different skill sets. She is a marketing guru and a business development wizard, I got to say. She's great at that. I'm great in operations and finances. So, we have very defined responsibilities, if that makes sense. So, whenever she comes to the problem, obviously, I'll be the sounding board, but she's the one that's the expert in marketing, for example.Israel:So, if there's anything coming up in a marketing campaign, then she's the one who's going to say, go or no go, the final word. Vice versa, in operations and finances. So, it's a really fortunate situation, I got to say, because it makes it easier, right? Especially having a relationship as well. Right now, I'm speaking from the office. We try to keep all Doughp matters in the office. So, the relationship also happens, but it's a challenge. But anyway, I think we have a very fortunate situation in this skill set.Israel:As far as your first question, when did we transition into the ecommerce? When did I join the company?Stephanie:Yeah. When did you join the company? Because that's where I want to get into the path to Shark Tank and all that. So, what year was it that you joined?Israel:Right. She went to Shark Tank before I joined the company. So, she went to Shark Tank in 2019. So, right after she opened the store here in Las Vegas, she went to Shark Tank. I joined the company late 2019. So, it was about six months after the Shark Tank episode aired.Stephanie:You are in the midst of the growth then, because I was listening to an interview with some stats around... I think it was in November 2019. You guys were maybe shipping 30 boxes a month. And then by April 2020, you were shipping 3,000 boxes per week, which is crazy growth. So, I want to hear. I mean, it sounds like you were right in the midst of that, of entering into... She was on Shark Tank. She didn't get a deal. But then she started opening more retail locations, grew like crazy, and then COVID hit. Tell me a bit about that.Israel:Right, exactly that. So, you just summarized everything. I joined the company in November of 2019, which was exactly when we were doing the small amount of boxes a month. When I joined, one of the first things I did with her was to have a big brainstorming session about all the operations that she was doing, right? So, at the time, she was doing catering events. She was doing a little bit of wholesale, a little bit of ecommerce. She also had the stores. So, it was a very wide breadth of operations and not having a lot of success in any of them per se, right?Israel:So, the stores were still the bread and butter of the company, but none of the stores were growing astronomically. We were already seeing some foot traffic decreases. Happening so much so that as soon as I joined the company, I was like, "We got to make sure that the unit economics of these stores are a little better," right? So, we were paying way more in rent than we should be paying based on foot traffic. So, renegotiations started happening back then. So, out of that brainstorming session, we used a very rudimentary framework, I would say, but it was super helpful to understand what type of work was being done in each distribution channel to serve customers versus what type of return that was giving to the company.Israel:So, the outcome of that situation was, "Okay, brick-and-mortar is still the bread and butter of the company. We are not going to change that, but we need to find one other channel, not five, six, seven, whatever she was doing back then, that will be the 20% revenue, right? We're going to keep the brick-and-mortar 80%. We're going to have one of these as 20%." Ecommerce was the one we decided just because of the "infinite possibilities" of having foot traffic not being limited by foot... It's not actually foot traffic. It's actually eyeballs. So, we decided to go into ecommerce in November of 2019 together. That's when we started shifting all of our resources into growing our website and our paid acquisition channels and our social media strategy.Israel:When the pandemic hit, thankfully, we were ready. So, although it was awful for the brick-and-mortar stores, it was great for the ecommerce because people were at home. They were not very happy being at home. They were trying to find novelties to fill the time, right? They're just not happy at home. Being an impulse buy, a nostalgia buy, we just skyrocketed. That's why 3,000 boxes a week happened.Stephanie:What kind of things did you have to adjust on the back end when it came to logistics? I mean, I'm thinking about shipping perishables. It's one thing to ship it to a retail location. You've got it all set. You're planning for your orders on average every week. How do you prepare for shipping all over the country or world? How did you set things up to prepare for that?Israel:That was a big learning experience, I got to say. There's a lot that co-chain shipping entails. Back in 2019, we knew almost nothing about it. So, there was a lot of talking to people that are already in the space and flying and driving to fulfillment centers and co-packers and seeing how they work, really learning how they work. But at the same time, we didn't have all the resources to go into a co-packer and a national last mile distribution contract. So, we have to be scrappy as well. So, we had to use all the resources that we had.Israel:In March, when the pandemic hit, I had staff of the store and I had the space. I had no customers to serve. So, that helped us in that I started using those resources to fulfill the ecommerce orders, right? So, January, February, we were already having some growth, not astronomical, but still some growth. I was already using that labor to fulfill the orders. And then in March, when the pandemic hit and ecommerce just went through the roof, I was able to use our staff to help there. But as far as the logistical implications, we have a lot of limitations, because of cold shipping, but now I thankfully can say we know what we're doing.Stephanie:That's a plus.Israel:Yeah. When we first started, finding coolants and insulation that will be able to keep our product refrigerated through the time in transit. Also, making sure that you find that sweet spot between the winter and the summer, because in the summer, we'll need more coolant, but you also can't forget about the coolants in the winter. It was a big challenge, but now we got it dialed in.Stephanie:I mean, it seems like this area of cold chain shipping and logistics has a lot of room to grow, because we've had a couple people on the show who... We had Yasso on. It's like frozen yogurt bars. Everyone talks about building their packing materials from scratch, depending on what you need, which seems insane to me. It seems like there should be some shipping materials. If you need something under this temperature for five days, here's the box to go with. Why do you think this industry is lagging behind like that when it seems like this is the way forward? I mean, everyone's going to be doing grocery delivery and online orders much more frequently now. It's the way we're moving, but it seems like that area has definitely lagged behind.Israel:That's a great question. I do think there's a wide or a vast lack of information around there. There's a little amount of players that know a lot, right? So, if you talk to some specialist companies in packaging and box design and coolant design, then yeah, they will know everything, but it's proprietary information, because it's their product. So, they don't want to be sharing this with many people. So, you don't find a lot of that information online consolidated in a how-to book. That's the first problem.Israel:The second problem is we had grocery stores operating before all this happen. Now, obviously that trend of going into ecommerce was already happening. But when the pandemic hit, it just accelerated exponentially. So, the speed with which the information is shared was not equal to the speed with which people needed that information. So, we have this major gap right now in which some players know what they're doing and some players are still trying to figure it out.Stephanie:Also, it seems like as a middle ground if you don't have the resources to invest in your own shipping materials, you could do the middle ground of working with grocery stores and letting them take care of it, ship it to the grocery store. They can do the online orders, the in-store pickups, and all that stuff. You don't have to figure out the logistics from end to end in the beginning.Israel:Right, right. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I think that's why most brands did not adventure into the ecommerce space, I think. Now, we're just seeing so many brands going into ecommerce, because people are at home and they're not buying from grocery stores as often, which is a whole different conversation, right? Are they ever going to go back to whatever normal is, or are they going to continue buying from ecommerce? My take on that is that they will continue to buy from ecommerce not as much as now, but definitely, they're not going back to what that rate was before. So, yeah.Israel:So, having this central player is also another reason why the information was centralized, right? They have this competitive edge, and they don't want to give it away to their competitors. So, if you're talking about Whole Foods, they have their own distribution chain. So, they have their own ways to make their profit at the end of the day. So, they don't want other competitors to find out what they're doing, I bet.Stephanie:Yup, yeah. It makes sense. So, when you were going through these transitions of going from mostly retail to ecommerce, what were some of the areas of the business that needed the most adjustments? When you're focused on retail, you're thinking about foot traffic. What neighbors do you have moving in? What other stores are nearby? You're mentioning unit economics. It seems very different when you're shifting almost completely to online sales. What things that you have to adjust or completely cut out from the business? The whole way of thinking, what do you have to change?Israel:Well, the unit economics of the two channels are very different, right? So, if you're thinking about a brick-and-mortar store, you have to consider labor as one of your biggest costs, along with ingredients and packaging. And then as you go into ecommerce, ingredients and packaging are still there. They're not going to go away. So, the major difference is shipping, handling and shipping. So, these are the major differences. Some people consider shipping within the cost of goods sold universe. Some people say it's out. But then after shipping, it's a contribution margin. Whatever you may say, shipping is a major cost to serve your customers on ecommerce channel. So, that is the biggest change, I think, we've seen.Israel:Ingredients and packaging as we're selling the same product do not change. Operating expenses and SG&A, we'll have a whole different conversation as well. Because as you go into ecommerce, you're acquiring customers in a very different way as you mentioned. You're not dependent on foot traffic. You're not dependent on a shopping mall management, what happens with the world, flights. Especially in the Las Vegas Strip, it's a very tourist-based area. So, going away from that gives us a lot more independence, but at the same time, because everybody got into that space last year, it got very competitive. So, although the cost structure is different, that competition makes it hard.Stephanie:Yeah. Did you have a customer base that you could tap into from your retail locations, where you've got these loyal customers coming back? Maybe they're getting points. Did you already have that baseline to tap into and be like, "We're moving to retail. We'll see you there"? Or did you have to start from scratch?Israel:So, it's a 50/50 response here. Yes, we did. It was great, right? We had a lot of customers through the Pier 39 store and the Las Vegas Strip store. They were indeed activated for the ecommerce. Whenever we were ready to ship, we sent a blast saying, "Hey, guys, here we are. We can ship to your house now." This was January, pre-pandemic. So, that part was great, but at the same time, we just grew so much in March and April, that I would say most of our customers right now did not go through our stores before. So, although we did tap into that, that's not the majority of our customer base.Stephanie:So, then how are you thinking about customer acquisition now? Because once again, it seems like such a different hat you have to wear of how to attract customers in the online world versus I could do a billboard. I could go out and give out samples of the cookie dough. What are your top performing channels right now that you guys are leaning into?Israel:See, our top performing channels are paid advertising and social media organic. I think we have a very different scenario here than most brands that you see in the grocery stores. It's because we lead with our mission and our giving back, right? We have a mission. We talk about mental health and stigmas around mental health. We also give 1% back to the community. That's just not something that other brands out there do. So, if you associate that with a kick ass product, which is what we have, then you have the winning formula. I think this is the way that we lead with our brand messaging. This is what's made us so successful so far.Stephanie:How do you think about balancing that? Because we've had a couple brands on the show who also have missions. We've had Bombas on. We had BLK & Bol‪d Coffee. But they also talked about the unique balance between thinking, "Do you sell with the mission, or do you sell with the product and then showcase the mission afterwards?" Because it depends on who you're getting in front of or who you're trying to reach. How do you guys think about that balance of we have an epic product. and we have a great mission without muddying up the website. Israel:That's a very interesting question. I think you said the answer in the question.Stephanie:I just answered my own questions.Israel:I actually agree with your answer. I think it depends on who you're trying to sell. It depends on what your product is. I think there's many ways for you to do this. In our particular case, we tried to lead with the mission. I think as you go into a commoditized industry, leading with the mission is more important. If you're not in a commoditized industry, then your product has major differences against its competition.Israel:So, it makes sense for you to lead with more of your product and how it is and why is it better than a competition. Although we have differences from our competition, it is a more commoditized product, right? If you go to a grocery store right now, you're going to find Pillsbury, Nestle, and other big brands right there. So, leading with the mission in this case, I think, is more relevant.Stephanie:I like that point. That is a good way to think about it. Depending on the industry, you should think about how to reach your customers. I also think you could maybe segment the customers depending on what they're searching for, what they're interested in, if they're past customers. We've talked a lot about loyalty on the show and how you should be giving different messages depending on who the customer is and how they've engaged with your product. Do you guys think about doing a more personalized approach depending on how your customers are interacting?Israel:Yeah. That also talks very closely to our landing page strategy, right? We have different offerings for different customers. So, it makes sense for you to segment your customer base and say, "Okay, I got to potentially have a loss leader to have this customer in the door. And then I'll make sure that this customer loves the product enough that they will come back because of the mission." So that's one potential strategy, but again, it depends on what customer you're trying to sell to and what your product is. In our case, we have many different customer personas. We try many different approaches to each of them every single day. So, there's a lot that goes into A/B testing and understanding what performs better to each audience. So, that's a lot of our time.Stephanie:Yeah. What are some of your favorite experiments that you've run or results where you're like, "I wasn't expecting that, but now we're leaning into that strategy after deploying that"? Any good stories around that?Israel:Yeah, shipping.Stephanie:Let's hear it.Israel:Shipping is very interesting. We've run many, many tests around shipping. It seems to be a seasonal thing or it has something to do with a pandemic. We're not quite sure about the reasoning behind it, but it seems like in the very beginning of the pandemic, people are more sensitive to the free shipping messaging, right? You were testing free shipping against the $2.95 shipping. Free shipping would convert like crazy versus the 295. Whereas now, it seems like people are more understanding of the world situation and how shipping works and how expensive it is for brands to ship.Israel:So, right now, the latest test that we ran about shipping, we didn't have a very significant variance in conversion between... I think it was a $9.95 shipping versus a $7.95 shipping. So, giving discounts on shipping right now is not as relevant as before, which to me just blows my mind because what you think in shipping, you consider Amazon, right? Customers are getting spoiled with Amazon, "spoiled."Stephanie:I'm spoiled.Israel:Exactly, you just go on Amazon. I literally went on Amazon last week on Friday to get some vitamins and I got the vitamins on Saturday morning.Stephanie:Yeah, I got a leaf blower in one day.Israel:Wow.Stephanie:That's a whole different level of being spoiled, but I mean, I'm all for it.Israel:Exactly. That talks closely to how expansive their distribution network is, how many warehouses they have, and how much inventory they hold in each of the warehouses to be able to do that, because as you centralize, it's easier for you to keep control of what you're doing and keep your processes consistent and whatnot. That's what we do.Israel:But as you want to reduce the time in transit, you have to do that. And then you need more labor, more headcount to make sure that everything happens, and more inventory. There's more cash tied up into that inventory. It just goes crazy. But most people that don't know what goes behind running a business just think, "Oh, well, this brand doesn't know what they're doing, because Amazon is doing it in a day." So, there's a lot of educating consumers about shipping and logistics for them to understand why Amazon is able to do this. Whereas the small brand that you're trying to support cannot do that. It doesn't make sense on their unit economics.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, I think that's the silver lining of 2020 is that a lot of people did experiment with new DTC companies. They went places they would have probably never shopped before then and were buying things directly from brands. So, I think they probably became more accustomed to paying for shipping to where going forward, that might be a more normalized thing, or going forward, people will just be like, "You need to just include that in the cost." Because oftentimes, I do think if you were just to increase the cost by a couple of dollars and tell me I have free shipping, I probably would be happier and just not care where it went. You can charge me for it, but just don't show me that extra line at checkout.Israel:Right, right. That's exactly how we did that first test. We just did exactly the same total cost for the customer. One had the shipping as a separate line item, and the other one had the shipping baked into it. Again, the free shipping converted way more. But now the last time we ran it, it didn't. So, yeah. Who knows what's going to happen now?Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, that's definitely a good test to run. So, what's next? What are you guys preparing for right now? Are you going to re-enter retail? Are you going to start working with wholesalers? What are you guys planning for over the next one to two years?Israel:That's a great question. It involves a little bit of forecasting in times of uncertainty. To the best of our ability, we forecast that potentially until late this year or probably mid-next year, we're going to be back to whatever normal is. So, there's many other channels that will come back to normal aside from ecommerce, right? Ecommerce is now our bread and butter. We're heavily focused there, but we foresee some opportunities, for example, in grocery stores and wholesale that we might pursue as well. So, that depends a lot on where the market is. I think by now, we know exactly how to pivot and persevere whenever needed. We learned that lesson during the ecommerce and pandemic shift.Stephanie:Would you re-enter retail with... Would you do anything different now, where you've had a year plus to think about it and think through the strategies that you were using before? Would you go about it a different way?Israel:Retail as in to brick-and-mortar stores?Stephanie:Yeah, brick-and-mortar.Israel:No, no, that's definitely not in our intention for the future. I think retail can work in some ways, but that's not something we want to do anymore, just because right now, we have this brand awareness. We have this momentum that the brand generated with the ecommerce shift and everything that's going on around us that we just think limiting your product to one single store that depends on the foot traffic around that store is not where we want to be. So, on the brick-and-mortar side, no, I don't think we would do anything different. On the ecommerce side, perhaps we would have started earlier.Stephanie:You can't have that kind of hindsight, but yes, I'm sure everyone's like, "Why didn't we do this a couple of years ago?"Israel:Yeah, definitely.Stephanie:What about samples? So, that's always my thing with everyone who's come on the show who is in the CPG area and foods and snacks and all this stuff. I mean, I always think about Costco, which I love so much. I miss their samples a lot. I think about a product like yours, especially with buying it online, it's like, "Well, I don't know how it'll taste. It'd be nice to be able to try it out in a small amount first." That's why I think retail is so great. So, how do you guys think about introducing it to customers like me, who would be maybe harder to sell to online without really knowing if I would even like it?Israel:Right. Well, I think you touched a very important point in the wholesale/grocery store channel, which is they do their own experiential marketing. Some of them do. Some of them have fairs and other types of experiential marketing. That's one thing that we'll definitely tap into. Organizing our own events is something we thought about, but not depending on real estate that's under a lease agreement, if that makes sense, right? Because an event, you're going to generate all that buzz and bring potential customers to your event.Israel:Maybe you can even do brand partnerships to generate even more buzz. Those people will come and try your cookie dough or whatever product you're selling, and then potentially buy from you at the grocery store or the ecommerce side. Whereas if you have one space, you're going to have to conduct business as usual. You're going to have to hire staff and keep staff and train staff, keep the lease. There's a lot of difficulties that encompass operating a retail store. I think for what you're saying, acquisition of customers, I think there's other ways to find that.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that. I think there's going to be so much pent up demand around people wanting to, like you said, getting into these experiences and experience brands but in a different unique way, whether it's events where you try something out or meetups or whatever it may be. I do think a lot of people who are changing quickly with the times will see it how you do around, "We don't need just one location. We can tap into the Walmart's and the Whole Foods, and then go to these events and just not be so reliant on one channel or one retail location."Israel:Yeah. I think that brings us to a very important point that's happening because of the pandemic, which is the decentralization of population density, right? If you look at population density of San Francisco, LA, New York, Chicago, all the big cities in the US, there's many people that just left.Stephanie:Got out of there. I'm one of them, peace. Bye, California.Israel:So, do we. Now, we're in Nevada. There's a lot of people that just don't need to be in a physical space. They just work remotely. There's no sense in keeping all the lease or whatever mortgage you have for nothing. So, that creates a very interesting moment for the industry, because there's a lot of other cities that otherwise would not have had so much foot traffic or population that now do, right? Las Vegas now has a big boom. There's a lot of people moving to Las Vegas. So, initially, you would have thought, "Well, I'm only going to launch events in New York, LA, SF, Chicago, Dallas, because these are the biggest cities." But now, it makes sense for you to go a little scrappier and do smaller events in cities that were not that big.Stephanie:Yeah, I was just thinking that too of exploring micro events that seems like it'll be a lot more logistically, because to actually tap into that same maybe amount of people that you would have before 2019 or before 2020, you really have to do a different approach, which seems like a lot of new and different kinds of work that many brands probably weren't and maybe still aren't prepared for.Israel:Totally agree. I believe the brands that are the most prepared in the ecommerce world are the ones that are going to succeed in the experiential events side of things, because they're going to have to ship cold product and make sure that the consistency and quality is kept throughout the time in transit. The companies that are doing the best in ecommerce are the ones that are going to succeed there.Stephanie:So, when thinking about experiences and focusing more on maybe the longer tail, like you said, the big cities, how do you think about leveraging influencers? Because to me, that could have a big impact too if you have events going on and you get an influencer from some city in Alabama, probably will have way better results than pulling in a Kardashian. How do you think about utilizing them over the next couple years?Israel:Well, that's a great question. That's a great question. Definitely, something I did not think about, but now, I think-Stephanie:I got the wheel spinning.Israel:Yeah, no, I think you got the wheel spinning. I think if we're starting the events in these smaller cities, I think the local influencer is going to have a better result as you said, right? Instead of spending millions in a Kardashian, for example, we could spend way less than that but distribute it across 20, 30 influencers in 20 or 30 different cities and bring more people to the event for sure.Israel:I think for the acquisition side of things, that will help because people will try our product, but at the same time, we have to make sure that the people that come to the event don't come only because of the influencer. They have a very good experience there as well provided by us, right? So, leading with the messaging and the 1% giving back. We're not here just for you to see this influencer and just for you to try this cookie dough. We're also here to foster raw conversation about mental health and addiction recovery.Stephanie:Yup. Yeah, that's cool. Also, maybe brings up a point of having volunteer events and smaller micro activities like that to bring people in for the mission. And then you've got the cookie dough, and you're making this well-rounded experience that people walk away with. They're like, "That brand had a really cool thing that I wouldn't have known about unless they hosted it."Israel:Yeah, love it. That's a great idea.Stephanie:You're welcome, man.Israel:I'm taking note of this.Stephanie:But I am thinking now about attribution piece too, which I think is going to be a big thing that brands have to think through over the next couple of years of, "How do you know if your efforts are paying off?" The world's changing so quickly. If you're moving to these more smaller locations to focus on things that are becoming more distributed, it seems like there's going to be a lot of work to do around, "What's actually working and what's not?"Israel:Yes, yes, you just find a situation there, right? Attribution in marketing is the hardest part, because some marketing pieces are going to be for brand awareness. How do you quantify that? It's super hard. So, a good approach for that is to just put everything in the same bucket and say, "Okay, revenue this month versus spend in marketing this month and just have that metric follow you through times for you to see whatever changed this month is doing okay or is not doing okay."Israel:So, obviously, it's a very simplified metric. There's way more refined metrics, I would say, for you to use in each and every channel, but that is a quick indicator of, "Okay, you're messing something up," or "Okay, well, something's going on that's doing well here." So as attribution goes harder and you mentioned it quite well, when you said, "When we start spending in these events and other stuff, how do you know that that person actually purchased from your website because of the event or because they saw an ad on Facebook or because they watched Kelsey on a podcast or me on a podcast?" There's limited ways for you to find that. So, I think that's a good way for you to gauge your results.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a tricky world going forward. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have 30 seconds or less to answer. Are you ready? I just saw your eyebrows though.Israel:I'm ready.Stephanie:That's your game face, I guess. All right. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Israel:Experience, customer experience. I think when you receive a box from a brand, if you're the brand, you got to make sure that that box is the best you can do for that customer to have a great experience, because the convenience factor is there. Yes. But if you tell them or if you send them an experience that's underwhelming, you're not going to keep that customer. So, I think that's the most important thing in ecommerce.Stephanie:What's your favorite thing you did to your unboxing experience that you're like, "I'm real proud of that"?Israel:Is that still under the 30-second limit, or can I expand that?Stephanie:This is a new one. Yeah, this is your next 30-second question. I just added on.Israel:I think as of now, the coolest thing that we do is to send a note card for each and every one of our customers talking about our mission and what to do with the product. If there's anything that's wrong with the product, please contact us. I think some brands don't take the care of telling their customers how to reach out to them in case anything goes wrong. I mean, let's consider I'm the customer now, right?Israel:I'm paying whatever I'm paying for a cookie dough to receive cookie dough in my house. Something happens and I'm not happy with the product. I'm going to go after it. I'm going to go ask the brand, "Hey, I just paid this amount of money for cookie dough. I could have paid way less in the supermarket. Can you please make it better?" If you're not ready for that, then you're not going to succeed in ecommerce. You've got to be ready to make sure that the customers have the best experience. So, sending that card and making sure that they know what to do and how to reach out to us has been a great victory for us.Stephanie:Yup, yeah. I love that. I think gone are the days of, "There's our chat bot. You can talk to them. Try and solve it through them." Nope, people are over that. That was something that maybe worked in 2019 for a little bit, and everyone was headed in that direction of tech can solve everything. It can take out your whole customer service team. It can solve all your problems, but I think now people are looking for that experience. They're looking for the brand to actually solve their problems and help them.Israel:Totally agree.Stephanie:All right. Next question, if you had a podcast, what would it be about? Who would your first guest be?Israel:Wow, you got to tell me that these things are coming now. The wheels are spinning here.Stephanie:Sorry, I can't. It's the lightning round.Israel:What an interesting question. If I had my podcast, I think it would be about hustling. There's so many people that do so much cool stuff. We never hear about it. there's people that are intrapreneurs. They're entrepreneurs inside their own organizations. They're still in their job, but they're doing very cool stuff within their companies. There's a lot of glamor around just entrepreneurship and whatnot. So, the hustling side would be interesting for me to hear. Who would my first guess be? That's a great question. Does it have to be a person that's alive?Stephanie:Nope, they can be whoever you want.Israel:Okay. I would probably interview Steve Jobs.Stephanie:That sounds good. I would listen to that.Israel:Oh, cool. I think he must have had very cool stories about hustling. There is some controversial information about his managerial skills, but I do believe he was a hustler. Apple is what Apple is very much because of what he's done to it. So, that would be a very interesting conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, I think that'd be really cool. I mean, yeah, there are so many people within companies. You see new product launches. You see new features. I think people just associate it with, "Oh, that's the brand." That's Google. That's Facebook. That's whatever. But there's people inside there who maybe had that idea and actually brought to fruition. I want to hear from this people. That's a good one.Israel:Exactly. Yeah, there's so much PR around the people that are on top of the company, but little is said about the people who actually bring those ideas into life.Stephanie:That's a good one. All right. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Israel:Oh, wow. Interesting question. Israel:Well, the wholesale world has a lot of question marks to me right now, just because we're not in it very deep, I would say. So, I would love to learn more about the wholesale and direct grocery store channel. I will probably know a lot more in a year. We can redo this.Stephanie:I know.Israel:My answer will be-Stephanie:We'll do a round two. When you guys start exploring wholesale, you come back with that. And then the last question, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Israel:Wow.Stephanie:We go deep here.Israel:Yeah, I love it. I love it. Israel:Okay. So, when I was doing this backpacking trip in 2015, I think it was in Vancouver, Canada. I had just missed my flight going to Toronto. It was the first flight I've ever missed in my life. I was very upset, very upset. So, I just went into this Starbucks shop. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to have this coffee. I'm going to just de stress. I don't want to think about this." I was alone. There was this gentleman sitting on a table right next to me. We ended up striking up a conversation. I was a little stressed because of the flight, but still, whatever. I'm just here to make friends and see what it's like to live here.Israel:And then this guy, I just told him everything about my life, but I lead with what I was doing in Brazil, right? I was like, "Well, I'm a civil engineer from Brazil, yada, yada." And then in the middle of the conversation, he's like, "Oh, so who are you, Israel?" I'm like, "What's going on here? I think this guy is a little odd. He didn't hear what I said." And then I'm like, "Whatever. I'm just going to say it again." And then I started saying, Well, I'm a civil engineer from Brazil, yada, yada." And then he stopped me in the middle. And then he said, "You are not defined by your job. You are defined by your passion. What's your passion?"Israel:And then it made me think like, "Oh, my God. I describe myself by my job today. I'm literally here trying to find a new city for me to live in. I'm trying to lead with my job." So, I think that was really kind of him to do. It was an interesting thing. I don't know that he thought it was going to be so impactful for me. By the way, if you're listening to this, I don't remember your name, but you're really cool, dude.Stephanie:You're the best.Israel:Yeah. So, as I went through my backpacking trip, I just kept that question in my mind over and over again. I was like, "I got to find my passion. What is the passion that I'm trying to solve here or trying to pursue in moving to the United States?" That eventually got me into a very deep reflection. Civil engineering was not my passion, basically. That's the bottom line of that reflection. My passion is education. I want to do something around education. I think education is the key to change the world.Israel:One of the things I want to do whenever I do have some more time... Right now, I don't. But one of the things I want to do is to found a nonprofit in Brazil to help with education in underserved areas. I think that's the key to go. I'm so grateful for the education that I had in Brazil all in all, because that's why I'm here, right? If I had not had that education, then I wouldn't be here. So, that's a long winded response.Stephanie:That's a good one. I think that is awesome of that person to give those thoughts. I've had that same reflection when I was living in the East Coast. People were very much into, "What do you do? What's your degree?" Always starting off with that. And then when I moved to California, it was very much not that. And then moving to Austin now, it's like, "What do you like to do? Do you like to hike? Do you like to paddle board?" That's a different conversation, but it makes you think very differently about, "What do I like to do? Who am I?" So, I love that. That's a turn for the philosophical and I am all about it.Israel:Love it.Stephanie:Thanks so much for joining the show. If people want to try out some Doughp, where can they get it from? I'm going to keep saying it like that, Doughp.Israel:www.doughp.com. It's D-O-U-G-H-P.com. You can also follow us on social media. Most of our handles are @Doughp.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much for coming on. It was a blast.Israel:Thank you for having me. I had a blast.

What happens when you can’t own the direct relationship with your customer? In the ecommerce world, you would think that’s pretty rare, but companies in big and highly-regulated industries deal with this problem daily. Anheuser-Busch is one of those companies and its team has had to be innovative in the ways they gather insights and create relationships with customers. Arabella Watters leads Category Development and Insights for ecommerce at Anheuser-Busch, and she is helping bring creative solutions to understand exactly who AB’s customers are, how they shop, and what they’ll want in the future. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Arabella dives into the roundabout ways that AB has had to gather data, and she explains how important it is to have a two-way relationship with retailers in order to share data that is useful to both parties. Plus, she explains why we can all learn a little bit from our international peers and what sorts of innovative approaches ecommerce brands can implement on their own right here in the U.S. Oh, and Arabella teases some exciting influencer content coming up soon that AB put together with Travis Scott that you’ll definitely want to check out. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:It’s a Two-Way Street: With retail partners, sharing data goes both ways. Whether it’s out-of-stock data, landing page placement, or general consumer insights, there’s information that both sides need to have access to. Establishing a reciprocal relationship of data-sharing will not only take the partnership further but transform how you can serve consumers.Digging For Data: Accumulating and then analyzing consumer data is the only way to get a 360 view of who your customers are and how they shop. But in industries that are heavily regulated, such as alcohol, having a traditional ecommerce experience is not quite possible, which means you have to get creative. Put on your creative hat and listen in to hear the many tactics you can use to get intel on your customers in a fun and unique way.Take What You Can: Although China is far ahead of the U.S. when it comes to ecommerce adoption, and how it has permeated through just about every industry — alcohol included — there are still points of inspiration and innovation that can be brought to the American market. Creating full omnichannel experiences and engaging with customers at every touchpoint on the customer journey are just two examples.Premiere Partnerships: Influencers are a dime a dozen these days, and it’s easy for a brand to pay for someone with a big following to promote a product. But the ROI from that is negligible. What works better is a more authentic strategy in which a brand forms a true partnership with an influencer or celebrity who is truly connected to the product and the campaign in a personal way. That authenticity resonates with audiences better than most other marketing activities.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today, we're chatting with Arabella Watters, the Head of ecommerce for Category and Insights at Anheuser-Busch. Arabella, welcome.Arabella:Thank you. Happy to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on here. Is it too early for a beverage? Or ...Arabella:Yeah, it's only 10:30, otherwise, I'd definitely would be having a seltzer next to me, for sure.Stephanie:Yeah. So speaking of seltzer, I was think that you're the perfect person to talk about all things D to C alcohol, not just because you're working at Anheuser-Busch, but because of a company that you actually started out of college that I saw you were taking an entrepreneurship class, and you actually took your project and ran with it, and I want to kind of start there because I thought that was really cool, and I was like that's impressive. Probably no one does that that I know of unless maybe you're at Stanford that's a little bit more normal, so tell me a little bit about that.Arabella:Yeah, definitely. I think it's a good segue into how I got to AB for sure. So I founded that company, Mojo, with my partner, exactly like you said, during college. So we were taking an entrepreneurship class, had this idea, and just decided to run with it because it felt like a really kind of rich and impactful idea that could actually go somewhere. I'd say it's super interesting when I think about how it kind of came to be and came to fruition. My partner and I at the time had both been studying abroad during our junior year. We actually were in South Africa, and had just a lot more exposure to kind of the alcohol and drinking culture in a less regulated place, which sounds really interesting and funny, but in South Africa, you can buy wine whenever, the drinking age is a little more relaxed and people are getting a bottle of wine, having a picnic, going for a hike, all of that.Arabella:Kind of more casual, outdoor, daytime drinking behavior. And we found it very, very, one, fun, and two just interesting and kind of something that was missing from the alcohol market in the US. So I've always liked wine. I grew up in California so it was something I was familiar with, but we kind of had the realization that wine in the US was very much so kind of stogy, a lot of different options without a lot of different differentiation, and the majority of the time it's very heavy red wines that make you fall asleep, and hard to drink.Arabella:So the insight that I kind of had was that there really was this growing opportunity for more easy to drink, lighter, social beverages that could be portable, you could take them on an adventure, you could drink during the day or during a more active activity. And I'd say so that was really kind of the thought that led to Mojo, which was basically a wine spritzer based off of this drink in Spain that was wine and Coca Cola. I think it actually was such an amazing experience to have and to dig into those insights and build that brand because now that was five years ago, but we're seeing that same trend of easily more portable, lighter, more sessionable drinks like seltzers or canned cocktails are really growing at such a huge speed. So I do feel validated that one, that was an insight that was definitely something that was a real trend that was growing, and two it really kind of exposed me to the alcohol biz early on.Stephanie:You were just ahead of your time. You're just a futurist.Arabella:I like to think of that too. It's funny though, now looking back when we were pitching it, it was kind of just this counter culture idea of oh you want to put wine and make it sparkling and you think people are going to drink wine outside during the day? And now people are chugging seltzers left and right during the day, so it's pretty much the same thing. So it's nice to feel validated now for sure.Stephanie:I'm sure that was a really good experience. So what ended up happening with that?Arabella:So I think the other less fun and more kind of realistic part of the experience was getting exposure to A, the legal landscape of alcohol in the US, so super challenging, a lot of barriers to entry whether it's getting permits, getting the ability to be registered as a wholesaler and selling to retailers and all of that stuff. So I'd say that in itself was challenging. We got through it, but the bigger challenge was just in order to really have the scale to get a beverage company off the ground, you need to have a lot of capital, and like you said we were pretty close out of college, had done a couple entrepreneurship pitch contests to get some funding and had gotten some funding through crowdfunding sites, but didn't have a huge amount of money at our disposal.Arabella:So I think what kind of is full circle for me is while we had to make the hard decision to not continue pushing on with it since it was so expensive to be getting a proof of concept, now I get to be at AB where it's such a huge scale operation where those things aren't a problem. So I like to think I can take some of those learnings and apply it to my job now.Stephanie:Yeah. I was actually just going to say you were in this kind of D to C world if you would have been fully launching and everything, and I'm sure Anheuser-Busch saw that and they're like that's exactly what we need, someone who was ready to start talking one to one to a consumer, like have the idea to do that. How was it when you transitioned to Anheuser-Busch and you're working on ecommerce for category and insights and all of the sudden you're like oh I actually can't talk to my consumer directly, it's like a roundabout three tiered system that I don't even know who I'm selling to really.Arabella:Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. It's definitely adjustment, it's definitely different. I think when I was thinking of joining the team, what I was really drawn to was exactly what you were saying, that there kind of was this gap in understand of who the ecommerce alcohol shopper was, and I love insights, that's definitely my passion point of my job. I love the whole job, but understanding the shopper really is what kind of gets me up and going in the morning. So yes I was drawn to this new channel that it was a new way people were shopping, that there really wasn't a huge amount of information available.Arabella:I think now being actually faced with it and not having access to direct sales data and to actual onsite metrics because we're working through the three tiered system with retailers definitely has been a challenge. Although I do think it's really kind of forced me to think creatively and think about how we can structure our research and our insights approach, and take directional insights that we have from in-store and take them to online and say what is similar here, what's different? It's pushed me to kind of go above and beyond to think about how to approach the problem of who the shopper is and that in itself has just been incredibly valuable.Stephanie:Yeah. I was thinking that too, you really have to get creative to get data in your industry, and I thought what AB is doing around merchandise and shops and all that is really interesting. I saw a quote where someone at your company said, yeah, we essentially launched these stores and we consolidated them so that we could get shopper data, because we really can't get that easily anywhere else on ecommerce. So tell me a bit about that approach and do you think the people buying merchandise are the same ones probably buying the alcohol in store?Arabella:Yeah. I mean it's super interesting to think of that. I don't know if it's the exact same shopper always, but what I do know is that anyone who's probably buying merchandise from us is definitely a brand loyalist, because you're not going to want to wear a Bud Light sweatshirt if you don't really love Bud Light and feel really strongly about the brand.Stephanie:But I saw a crop top in your store and I'm like that's cute. I don't know if I ever would have worn like a Busch branded T-shirt, but that crop top, it's something. I like it.Arabella:Yeah. You know what, the Bud Light merch is actually really fun. I have a beanie that I wear sometimes and I get endless teasing from my friends but I love it. So yeah, I mean I think it's definitely brand loyalists, or to your point, people who feel, each of the brands that are within AB have such strong brand voices and such legacy and such power pretty much in the market, and so I think the merchandise, while it doesn't directly relate to us selling beer, it does do I think some great work in furthering the brand awareness and people feeling like they're connected to the brand and want it to be something that's part of their day to day, and I think the ability for us to, I think where I'd love to do a little bit more work with the merch business is thinking about how we can kind of create more of a one stop shop experience, so how can we partner with retailers to get that Bud Light crop top paired with a Bud Light six pack and get it bundled together so we can merchandise and sell that in one fell swoop, because I think that sort of would be the ultimate goal that we can get the shopper having the actual product and also that brand loyalty experience.Arabella:But I know that's a huge, huge priority, because to your point, we can't capture the data, but I know with the merch biz, that's a big focus for our next year in 2021.Stephanie:Yeah. So what other creative ways are you all going about to find customer data so then you can personalize that experience in one way or another, like what are the things that you're trying out that you're having success with right now?Arabella:So we pretty simply just work as an insights-driven org to be bringing as much data that's specific to the retailers as we can. Stephanie:Yep. And how do you think about out of stock issues? So we just had a guest on from Intel where they were saying they're trying to work with all these retailers, he was from the internet of things group, and he was saying there's so much opportunity with retailers where they oftentimes don't understand their inventory, things can remain out of stock for an entire day and they'll say that they're on it but they actually had no idea, how do you handle that from a tracking perspective to make sure that your retailers are keeping your stuff in stock and it's being tracked properly?Arabella:Yeah. So that definitely has been one of my big goals for this year is to really get more of a data specific perspective on out of stocks, on how we're doing on the shelf online, everything that you're saying. So we actually just partnered with a digital shelf tracking company, Profitero, I feel like you guys maybe have heard the name before. So our big plan with them in the next year is basically to take on all those things you're saying and give it more of a data lens so we can be reporting out weekly and tracking what products are out of stock and what we should be communicating to the wholesalers to be getting them updated and fixed, because we know that from an ecommerce perspective, out of stocks are a huge, huge issue because in store, you're out of one pack of Bud Light, well the shelf is stocked in a way that Bud Light is a brand that has multiple SKUs, you could easily just grab the other one that's there and go on your way.Arabella:Online, when something is out of stock, a lot of retailers will simply remove it from the site so you don't even see it, so that recognition that we get with our brands is completely gone if the product doesn't even show up on the site, and then you see them moving to a different competitor or substituting in a different way. So I think that really it's a huge, huge piece, and it's especially huge with our pure play partners, so those who are only online retailers, because we're able to have a little bit more of a direct connection to them as well and work through those things.Stephanie:Got it. Cool. So the one thing I'm thinking about too is attribution around marketing campaigns and things like that. How do you think about seeing if something that you're doing out in the world is actually impacting sales, if once again you have to be like let's look at our retail partners and see what's happening, or how do you think about attribution in your industry?Arabella:Yeah. I mean it's definitely a challenge.Stephanie:[inaudible].Arabella:It's a challenge, it's a constant challenge. It's something that I'm always working on to try to, again, thinking creatively and outside of the box, I think one way that we are working on thinking about how our campaigns are performing is we track our placement on the shelf on retailers, so what percentage of the first page we have, what percentage of the first five spots we have, and the way that a lot of algorithms work with the retailers is that they're based on sales and conversions. So what you could do is sort of back into how a campaign or product is doing by looking at the change in where you're placed up on the site, and that's something that's like of course, it's definitely there's room for error there, but I think from a directional standpoint we're able to see, okay we ran a campaign on Michelob Ultra Seltzer all of January and it started at the bottom and now it's at the top. That means that if we were driving to that retailer, it worked. Right?Arabella:So it's a little bit more binary in that we're not able to get so, so granular, but that's one way I think from the category and the retailer perspective we're able to either check or not that something is working. Stephanie:Man, you're in a tough industry.Arabella:Yeah.Stephanie:I haven't had to ask questions like this on any of my episodes, but it makes me wonder, oh actually except for Haus, when I was talking to the Haus founder.Arabella:I listened to that one.Stephanie:Okay yeah, that was where I learned about the three tier-system, but it makes me wonder is a three tier system going to go away? Because it seems like there's companies right now who are kind of just working to get around that system, and once that starts happening it's like maybe that system's just broke, and with the move to D to C, why would it still be there then if everything else can have access to the consumer, it seems like this industry should too, with the proper protections. Stephanie:Yeah, that just feels so odd to me. Especially the world that we're in today, and just thinking that you can make something and then not be able to sell it on your own just feels very archaic in that you have to go through a retail location or whatever it may be.Arabella:Yeah.Stephanie:It just feels not very business friendly, but that's [crosstalk].Arabella:It's super interesting also to think about as marijuana is going to eventually I'd imagine be legal on a federal level, then how are they going to regulate that as well, because it's sort of a mirror industry to us, is that going to be something you also have to go through a wholesalerArabella:But I think that's another probably will give us another opportunity to have the bigger conversation because it's sort of like if THC and marijuana is able to have this direct to consumer business relationship then why can't alcohol as well?Stephanie:Yeah. It sometimes seems like older industries are punished from the older times, where as you're new and up and coming, you move so quickly where it's like you can get much further ahead where it's hard to pull you back in when you're already like well now I'm out delivering everywhere in California.Arabella:No, it's so interesting. I think that's such a great point when you think about the Ubers or AirBnBs or the share economy of the world where they just absolutely turned old industries on their heads and didn't really think about the regulations, and then they're so big now that it's harder to go backwards.Stephanie:Yeah.Arabella:Exactly. And overturn those things.Stephanie:I think it's good sometimes. It's good to push the regulations forward and bring them up to the times.Arabella:Yeah, I agree.Stephanie:So the one space that a lot of guests have talked about is what's happening in China. And what was interesting is I saw that AB was looking at China now as kind of the market that they use to bring a lot of learnings from ecommerce back to the US. So what are you guys seeing there and what kind of learnings have you actually been able to bring back to the US and apply versus what have you been like whoa that's just such a different market, it's very different there and we kind of keep it siloed when it comes to what we're doing there versus in the US or in Brazil or all around the world?Arabella:I'll start off by saying that while I work on the North America business, we do have a global e-retail center of excellence where we meet frequently to talk about best practices and get inspiration, just like you're saying, from markets where while it may not be cookie cutter to our market, we're able to see what they're able to do and how it performs and think about how we could apply it to what we do. So China is definitely an amazing example. I'm always thinking about what they do kind of as the best case scenario for ecom, I think we have to always take it with a grain of salt just because there are legalities, to the convo we were just having, they can sell directly to shoppers at any point I believe in the shopper journey.Arabella:So that's amazing. And we've really been able to I think one of the things that struck me the most, we had the China team present to us last year on double 11, the singles day, and what they have been able to do with our brands there like Budweiser being one of the huge ones, and kind of just creating this huge omnichannel event where we're taking over every single possible touchpoint for the shopper, whether it's a vending machine, or the apps on their phone, or the actual grocery store, doing activations where there is a concert and then you can click the video and get your Budweiser delivered. Things that sort of feel to me like this crazy world of digital, physical connection that I think in the US we just don't have yet in general, and we definitely don't have for alcohol because it's so regulated. But I think that's something that we try to take inspiration from and think about okay, while we can't have a Budweiser delivered in three minutes from someone's cellphone, we can think about how important it is to take over from a branded perspective like multiple touch points from the shopper journey, and communicate with them not just during the shop on the retailer, but with a more interactive experience before.Arabella:I know our D to C team has done some awesome things like international beer fest which was I think in August, and then a New Years Eve concert festival series, those kinds of things, where we're getting shoppers on, they're interacting not only from a transaction point of view, but from just feeling close to the brands, having an experience in a time when we need them even more so, and those have been hugely successful. So I'd say that China is an amazing example. I would love to go over there and work, I think I would learn so much. It's kind of the pinnacle of not having to be regulated versus we're much more in that regulated space.Stephanie:Yeah. I was just chatting with a guest, Andrea, yesterday, where she said they brought an influencer from China to Harvard so the Harvard students could see it in live and action, so they pulled her screen up so they could see what was on her phone or something, and then she was selling Harvard shirts and sold like thousands of them in minutes. She's like that's when I realized that's crazy. And I don't know if that is the same thing that would happen here. You definitely see influencers driving sales, but I don't know if it's to that degree of and I have a pen, and now 10,000 of them just sold because I said I had a pen. I don't know if it's to that degree, but it's very interesting to watch.Arabella:Yeah. That's a great question. I know that influencers, they've been trying to make all the social platforms so much more shopable this year, and I feel like I don't have stats from Instagram, but I feel like it's not quite there yet to the point of what you're saying where an influencer can just be selling things and have this huge, huge power to be creating transactions. But I think another interesting thing about the whole China piece with that is that so much of their tech is just integrated in whether it's the social media, it's with your payment system, it's with the equivalent of Amazon, and so it's just a lot more seamless. But yeah, the power of, we certainly have people in the US who can sell things. Actually an amazing example would be we're doing a seltzer with Travis Scott that's launching in the next month or so, Cacti. I'm super, super excited for it, and I think that's a great example of he partnered with us to create it and he has such star power, so I think it will be incredibly fascinating to see how that does.Stephanie:That'd be cool to bring you back and hear how that campaign went, because I think a lot of people have been debating around do big names, of course they will drive sales, but at what point is it authentic versus not authentic? How do you structure the campaigns to make it, sometimes you'll see certain people being like oh I always use this teeth whitener, or I sure love this whatever it is, and you're like do you though? That's very inauthentic. So it'd be interesting to see how you guys create a campaign in a way that's a partnership instead of just a one off, like okay go put this ad on your Instagram and see what happens.Arabella:Yeah. It's a great point. I think there's so much influencer marketing that can be so disingenuous, exactly. It's like I love this product. Cool, that's great. It doesn't have any emotional resonance with me. I think with Travis Scott, what the team did was really, exactly what you're saying, partner with him. So he was so in lock step with the creative process and the brand building and the actual liquid itself, that when it came time to, we announced it about a month ago, when that was kind of coming to fruition, he was incredibly invested in having it be successful, and it feels really authentic to actually who he is, like the whole Cacti, Cactus Jack thing, and I think that definitely is part of the hopeful success of it, and yeah I'd love to give you guys an update when it launches in March. I think it's just going to be super, I know the initial stats that we've seen like on social media, it's already the top alcohol following of any brand that's out there.Arabella:It's really an amazing testament to how, to your point, how powerful people can be and what is it about Travis Scott that's so resonant with so many people. Is it he's incredibly creative? Is it the whole kind of eclectic side of his brand? Is it because he's Stormi's dad-Stephanie:Probably.Arabella:And Kylie's baby daddy. Arabella:But neither here nor there. He's incredibly powerful, and I think it will just be a good whether it is a smash hit or not, it's a good test to what you're saying about can a person really be the driving force behind a brand?Stephanie:Yeah. I would also like to see the lifetime value of that person, is it a one hit like I'm going to try this out? You obviously have to have a great product behind it, which it sounds like you invested heavily to make sure it was good in partnership with him, but how do you keep those people around after maybe the excitement is kind of dying down, how do you make that an everlasting brand and something that people actually come back to? Arabella:That really is, exactly, that's the special sauce, that's what's going to make people feel connected to it, and also that the liquid is filling some need for them that they actually like and want to continue drinking. Because there's only, I feel like with consumables, what's always kind of driven me to be interested in food and bev and alcohol is that while there is the branding and the specific need that it's filling, it's also there's a piece of it, you're eating it, you're drinking it, it has to be good, versus I think with a lot of the disruption with D to C brands across kind of industries, there's a lot of copycatting going on and things that are not product driven and really brand driven which is not always a bad thing, but there's not really room for us to do that because if it tastes bad nobody's going to re buy it.Stephanie:Yeah. Yep. Love that. So how are you thinking about maybe the next couple years in your industry? You guys had to shift really quickly, I'm especially imagining how big the company is, how maybe certain processes were maybe a little outdated, how did you shift really quickly to focus on ecommerce and where do you want to head over these next couple years?Arabella:Yeah. So I think we're in a really strong position because AB has felt like ecommerce has been something that's important for I believe the team started five or so years ago, so really when building the foundation for this channel for a while, but totally to your point, this year has completely transformed the way that we do business, just because the sheer volume of interest from players wanting to get online, the amount of people who are entering into the category online, so it's double the amount of households in the US of people who are buying alcohol online, and just the sheer simplicity of that and the size of the way the industry has grown, our category in the channel has grown, has definitely been a big change.Arabella:So I think we were set up for success going into it and it kind of was more of an accelerating and scaling everything that we were doing, so making sure we were supporting more regional partners versus just the Walmarts and the Amazons and the Instacarts of the world. Thinking about how to optimize what we were doing in a really fast way, so just like what we were talking about before, trying to track campaigns and get a green light or a red light on whether it is actually doing well. I think one thing that we worked on during COVID that was a big pivot and I'm very proud of is we created a site called buy beer online, and it is designed, basically during COVID huge boom but not everyone knew exactly where to go to find their alcohol online. We found that a lot of people were searching in Google beer delivery, how do I get beer delivered, buying beer online.Arabella:So we created this site that is designed to be bridging that gap and so it has all of our brands on it, and it also links to an ecommerce product locator. So you come on, you can find craft brand that you like, click it, and it will tell you where you can order it for delivery or pick up near you.Stephanie:That's smart, so you're optimizing on a new search trend which I know myself personally has been like how to get wine delivered, and being like where do I even start, and I have to download this app or this one, and this one's going to take four hours, that's too long for me.Arabella:Yeah. Oh totally. Exactly. We actually should have it where it's like 30 minutes or less.Stephanie:Yeah. Important. Sometimes you need it right when you need it.Arabella:It's true. I just actually saw a piece of research where it was like a quarter of people are immediately consuming right after, which makes sense. Sometimes, exactly, you need it. But yeah. So that was I'd say something we created like within a couple months during the beginning of COVID to make sure that we had a tool like that to be helping shoppers, and I'd say it's been really strong for paid search like we're saying, and then also for a lot of our craft brands that really relied on regionality and that on premise bar experience, brewery experience. During COVID it was sort of a big issue where shoppers didn't know where to get the craft brands that they loved, so we were able to in a way make our craft website, so a Goose Island, or a Karbach, we live in Austin, make those sites shoppable by linking out to buy beer online so you could get the shopper to an actual place where they could find the beer.Arabella:So that's been really impactful and very cool for us to be doing during COVID and I think the more we can do things like that where we're owning the full experience because to your point, we also capture all the data that comes through too. So it's like win-win on both sides.Stephanie:Yeah. I just love those stories because it really does highlight the creativity and innovative thinking at AB that maybe you wouldn't have done if you would have had it easier. Like if you would have had that easy one to one consumer relationship you wouldn't have had to think about what are other creative search terms we can go after and content we can create and ways to reach our consumer that a lot of brands don't really have to think like that, so it's really cool.Arabella:Yeah. It is really cool, and I think that's one reason I love AB is it's very creative and innovative place. Which I don't know if everyone knows that, but it really is. And I feel like if it was direct to consumer, there's also you can really kind of get caught up in the tactical pieces of things. So to your point, I would just be obsessed with the open rates on my marketing emails and how I'm converting people, which those things are amazing and important but I think we're forced to, like you said, think outside the box and figure out more about our shopper in a way that's kind of a little bit unorthodox.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. So the last piece I wanted to touch on before our lightning round is how does AB think about their tech stack for, because it's B to B to C, how did you guys have to adjust, if at all, to all the sudden be able to let all these retailers maybe order online in a fashion that was not happening before, like pre COVID, did you have to adjust your back end to make it simple for people to come on and order and make that an easy relationship or what did that look like?Arabella:Yeah. So luckily because we have the three-tiered system, we're not actively funneling any sales through our own tech side or back end. Actually what we try to do though is as a lot of retailers have come on in the last year or so is leveraging our knowledge and our partnerships to offer them the best connections. So whether it's connecting a grocery store with the best on demand delivery app, GrubHub or Drizly or whatever it is, and creating those relationships so that they can get on board I think is really what we look to do. I know that that's not a techy answer, but it's definitely what we try to optimize. And then also helping them with the payment platforms too, so helping them onboard with a Stripe, or an Apple Pay, or just at least giving them the tools and the information, it's something that they have to do on their side as the retailers, but we like to try to optimize and help them get to the strongest place to launch as possible.Stephanie:Yeah. Very cool. All right, let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Sales Force Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Arabella:I'm ready. Scared.Stephanie:Yeah. Dun-dun-dun. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Arabella:You know what I actually feel very strongly about is the presence basically, the fact that retailers and D to C companies are moving towards creating not just the shopping experience on their sites, but more of a content hub. And what I mean by content hub, not just to say buzzwords, is a place where not only are shoppers coming to buy your products, but maybe they're looking at recipes, maybe they're doing mixology, if it's retail, maybe you're giving them styling options or more information about your products. Really, I've seen more and more companies do this this year as I think it's a two fold thing. It's become the status quo is people know that shoppers love content and social media has been so big in the last few years. And then secondly, as people are more and more at home, more on their phones than ever before, and that's not a COVID answer, it's just true, that if you can capture someone's attention to actually get them engaged and interacting and making everything on your site shopable, I think that's really going to be kind of the bread and butter that can really change your experience or not. And I know that for us, for ecommerce with alcohol, that's especially huge because we're not quite there yet and I really want to get there.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. All right, next question, what was your favorite virtual event that you did at AB in 2020 and how do you think about success for these virtual events that you're saying performed really well?Arabella:What a good question. Yeah, I think that the international beer fest that we did in August, so I wasn't leading that, but our general direct to consumer team was, and I think that was incredibly successful because it came at a time when people were A, really starved for that interaction and the feeling of connecting with people and doing something and having something to look forward to. And B it worked in a really strong way where it connected with our brands. So international beer fest had, there was music happening, a few artists who were sponsored by our brands, I think Post Malone did a thing, sang, so there was that element where it was a little more passive, it's encouraging you to crack open a beer and watch the concert. Super strong, but then also just other things, like I believe we had a cooking tutorial and a mixology thing, and trying to create something that is for everyone without stretching yourself too thin and also being true to the brand is super key, and what I know was also a great add to it is we were able to leverage buy beer online to also direct you during the event so that people could find places to shop for the products.Stephanie:What did the traffic look like going to the buy beer online during that event or afterwards, what kind of conversions did you see going to that?Arabella:Yeah, so I believe we actually saw a lot more conversion coming up to the event versus actually during it. Which is interesting for sure. I think we're in much more of a place where shoppers are still shopping for a little bit in advance, like planning ahead, like I saw this ad for this thing, I'm going to buy beer for this weekend to watch it, versus looking and saying I'm going to get drinks late in 20 minutes to get delivered. So we saw a lot of traffic leading up to it definitely and then a lot of live interaction during it, but not as much I think quick conversion onto those on demand platforms, which I think just speaks to the fact that click and collect and pickup is just a little bit stronger right now than the delivery aspect, but I think we'll probably see that grow as Uber just bought Drizly literally yesterday, so that's going to be a big game changer for scale.Stephanie:Yeah, everyone's trying to figure out last mile delivery and how to make it work. There's been quite a few interesting articles about why some of those companies like the DoorDashes need to expand. Very cool. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Arabella:Oh. What a good question. I am currently making my way through Grey's Anatomy. I've been watching it for so long, since it started, so it's kind of my comfort watch and after a long day with a little Zoom fatigue and talking on the phone all day it's nice to just relax to something that I know is reliably dramatic and juicy.Stephanie:That's great. If you were to have a podcast what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Arabella:Good question. I think, you know what, I'm kind of a fitness buff a little bit, and I've gotten really into it during COVID just as like a distraction and a thing to keep me sane. I love Pilates a whole lot. I find it very, very, it focuses my brain, it's challenging, I don't have to jump around. I don't love HIIT, it's not my fave. So I would love to do a podcast that kind of explores the relationship between human psychology and exercise and how those things are so entwined because I really believe they are. And I think as my first guest, I'd love to bring on someone, I actually just read a great book about endurance running and ultra marathons where they run like 200 miles-Stephanie:Wild.Arabella:I don't run [crosstalk]-Stephanie:Two miles sounds like, whew.Arabella:Yeah, exactly. I'm like one mile. I find it so, so fascinating how you really can push yourself. So I don't know a specific name but I'd like to bring on someone who's an endurance athlete to kind of pick their brain.Stephanie:Yeah. Very cool. Aright Arabella, it's been awesome having you on the show, such a fun conversation. Where can people find out more about you and Anheuser-Busch?Arabella:Yeah, definitely. So you can check out my LinkedIn I'd say if you want to find more info about me. And if you're curious, please check out buy beer online, we have a lot of info about the biz and all of our brands on there as well. And you can feel free, if you'd like to reach out to me, I don't know we can maybe put my email address somewhere, I'm happy-Stephanie:[inaudible].Arabella:Yeah, that say it's being risky, but I'm always happy to chat with people and connect. I think that's really kind of what is the bones of business and makes the world stronger. So shoot me an email.Stephanie:Amazing. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show.Arabella:Of course. Thank you.

What if we told you that you may be approaching Amazon in all the wrong ways? Many brands, especially more established ones who started out in brick and mortar, have been playing a game of catch up while trying to quickly figure out how to sell on Amazon and win. But it may feel like a confusing place to win. Especially if a brand is trying to apply a brick and mortar sales approach, like winning a category, to online platforms like Amazon, Target, or Walmart.But we all love a good underdog story, which is why we invited Andrea Leigh to the show to share her secrets. Andrea is the VP of Strategy & Insights at Ideoclick, a full-service ecommerce optimization platform. Before Ideoclick, she spent nearly a decade working for Amazon, so she is coming to the table with a true insider’s view and strategies in her back pocket that she’s seen work on Amazon and other marketplaces.In this interview, which was one of my favorites I’ve ever done so far this year, Andrea and I discuss why brands need to accept the death of the category and start thinking about how to stand out against an entire competitive set. Doing that means repositioning your brand and winning the share of search, it means optimizing for SEO, and it also means going back to the basics of differentiation so that you’re not just another option in a sea of products that look exactly the same. Plus, we talk about selling across multiple ecommerce platforms, and how to think about Amazon releasing “white label” product lines. I hope you enjoy this discussion as much as we did!Main Takeaways:Category Chaos: Brick-and-mortar shopping lends itself to categorization, but in the world of ecommerce, particularly on Amazon, categories are not something brands should focus on. Customers shopping online are fed suggestions based on their entire history of shopping, so when they search for something like peanut butter, they don’t just see Jif and Skippy, they see that and then anything peanut butter adjacent that might resonate with them even a tiny bit. With this in mind, brands need to figure out how to compete in entire segments, rather than specific categories.One Metric To Rule Them All: Share of search is one of the best metrics an ecommerce brand can look at to measure everything from how customers are finding them, to what the customer experience is when they search for something, to who the competition is in their set.  Mining For Gold: One of the places that Amazon has excelled is aggregating consumer complaints, and then coming out with an Amazon Basics product that addresses all of them, which then becomes a top-seller. CPG brands large and small should be employing a similar approach. And, they should be highlighting the bells and whistles of their product that separates them from the white-label product that any marketplace offers because that is what differentiates you from the mass amount of search results a consumer will be combing through.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone. And welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Andrea Leigh, the VP of strategy and insights at Ideoclick. Andrea, welcome.Andrea:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on too. I was looking through your bio and I saw that you were at Amazon for almost a decade, and I'm sure you have some good juicy stories from that those 10 years.Andrea:I do. It was a wild, wild ride. I think when I started, I was employee 4,012 or something like that, and then when I left, 99.9% of the company had started working there after me, so I was literally a dinosaur. Yeah.Stephanie:Oh my gosh. That's amazing. So what were, high level, some of the things that you did at Amazon and are any of those things still relevant today?Andrea:Yeah, I think they're super relevant. I spent my entire career there working on their ecommerce business, and everything from the early days of helping launch their price matching software, the software they use to price-match other retailers. I worked on Harry Potter book launches back when print books were the only way to read books. We also had some things that we did with Oprah's Book Club. I worked on the launch of the grocery category on Amazon.com, and the Fulfilled by Amazon program there, helped launch the baby registry and built the baby category after Amazon severed ties with Babies R Us.Andrea:I was general manager for Amazon Fresh for a little while. At my last three years there, probably the most exciting, I moved onto our Canada business and I launched 15 product categories for Amazon Canada. I ran the Prime program up there, and then I also managed our transportation network. And that was probably my most exciting role because it was certainly cross functional. But I think the common thread is, and probably why I liked Canada so much in the later years was just, I really, really enjoy working with the manufacturer community.Andrea:I think that the process that they go through to really understand the customer, to build products, to address customer needs, and then to figure out how to connect consumers to the values that they've built in their products, I think is just really exciting, and figuring out how to do that online is even more exciting. Certainly, in the early years of Amazon, we spent a lot of time working with brand manufacturers and partnering with them because we weren't very big back then and we were really trying to get these categories built and to get customers shopping online for things besides books.Andrea:And I found that to be really enjoyable because every manufacturer has a unique set of challenges. It's like a puzzle to be and to collaborate on. And that's still what I get a chance to do today at Ideoclick and really, really enjoy that process of helping manufacturers solve those puzzles. And we certainly don't have all the answers, but I think it's a similar process to go through with each manufacturer to identify where they are on their ecommerce journey, and then help them figure out how they're going to build a sustainable business.Stephanie:That's awesome. So tell me a bit about Ideoclick. How did you think about creating Ideoclick? And what is it? What does it do? How does it help companies?Andrea:Yeah. We're an ecommerce optimization platform, and we're a hybrid of a software solution and a services organization. And my husband actually started Ideoclick about 13 years ago. We were both working at Amazon together at the time, he left and started Ideoclick and I stayed at Amazon for 10 more years. And I joined up with him about, it was probably like four or five years ago now, to help him run Ideoclick. And really, it came from the same place that I was talking about earlier, really wanting to work more closely with the manufacturers, help them figure out how to navigate Amazon.Andrea:As Amazon became bigger and bigger, not only did it become more important to the manufacturers' business, but it started to become a little unwieldily in terms of how to be successful, how to make sure your products stand out, and how to negotiate and operate. With such a big player, that's so unique and looks so different from brick and mortar, which is what most manufacturers have been really accustomed to for so many years. And so Ideoclick was really born out of that to help manufacturers navigate these waters. And we are a full service, white glove providers.Andrea:So we do everything from setting up the items in the digital catalog, writing content, running all of the automated advertising on Amazon, Walmart, Target and Instacart, and also going back and assisting with operations, managing the chargebacks and fees that the retailers often slap on the manufacturers and recovering some of those fees. So we're a full service agency, we're in a category called managed services.Stephanie:Got it. So what are some of the biggest maybe missteps that manufacturers or sellers are making on the platform where you're like, "I've got all these secrets from an exec at Amazon that I know how to prevent that or why you shouldn't be doing that." What kind of things are you preventing from happening when you're working with them?Andrea:Yeah. I think my answer would have been really different a couple of years ago, especially COVID impact on ecommerce. Amazon's not the only game in town anymore, and these other platforms, more specifically Walmart and Target, but if you look category by category, they're a becoming a really big player in each space, whether it's Wayfair for furniture, or Sephora and ULTA for beauty, or Chewy for pets, there's a player there that's starting to represent a sizeable portion of the business. So a couple of years ago, I would've said getting these Amazon foundational things right is the most important and it's the biggest misstep.Andrea:But I think now we would say not having a strategy across all of these eCom players is a real big misstep, and shooting from the hip, because I think we're in a world where these retailers are in fierce competition with one another, they're price-matching each other, they're very closely watching what one another is doing. And you don't want the customer to suffer as a result of that. And so having a strategy that does things like differentiating assortment or helps you figure out how you're going to allocate your ad budgets, now that all these platforms have ad platforms associated with them as well.Andrea:I think that shooting from the hip is probably the most common misstep that we see. But I think some of the same things still hold true from several years ago, which is just getting those foundational elements right. There's certainly little tricks you can do and little black hat tactics that will get you some more reviews real quick or help you get to the top of search. We don't focus on that stuff, it's not sustainable, most of it's against Amazon's policies. So it's really about making sure your products are in stock, making sure you have the correct information on your product pages, making sure that you've got resources internally within your organization to support ecommerce and to drive it, making sure that you have good SEO and you're making use of the ad platform in appropriate ways.Stephanie:So now that you just mentioned SEO, I do want to talk a bit about categories. I know that you've been on, maybe a brand or whatever it may be for a while around like, categories aren't the way forward anymore, and that you really need to optimize for search, just like you would anywhere else. So tell me a little bit about how ecommerce owners should think about that going forward. Why is Amazon not as focused on categories anymore? Or maybe the buyer's not focused there?Andrea:Yeah, I think it really starts with the customer, and the customer not being as focused on categories. I can tell a little story that might help illustrate it. We had a manufacturer come to us and say, "I'm like the number two or three bottled water brand in the world, and so I should be number two in my category on Amazon." And there are a number of reasons why that thinking is a little bit out of date or flawed. When a customer goes to Amazon and searches for bottled water, they don't just see bottled water, they see tea and electrolyte water and powdered electrolytes for water and ice, flavored water, and all kinds of things that are category adjacent. But they may also see things that are out of category.Andrea:Peanut butter is another great example. If you search peanut butter on Amazon, you're going to get some peanut butter, you're going to get peanut butter crackers, you're going to get peanut butter bars. And it's not because like Amazon is not thoughtful about deciding what to return in those search results, for example, they're returning those products because those are the products customers are buying. Their algorithms are very, very smart. And even from an advertising perspective, you can't win those ad slots unless there's a history of customers making that search and buying your product.Andrea:And so the concept of a brick and mortar category totally makes sense if a customer is going to a store, they're going down an aisle, they're presented with bottled water, they choose from what's available to them, and then they move on to shop at a different category. But eCom customers don't shop that way, the category is dynamic, it's continually evolving, shaped around that customer. And what they've specifically looked at when retailers are using automation and personalization. And so you can't really apply that same mental model to ecommerce. You have to really think about that entire competitive set.Andrea:And so that manufacturer who thought he should be number two or number three bottled water brand his competitors on Amazon, aren't just bottled water, as we stated, they're tea and they're electrolyte water and all kinds of other things. So his competitive set is different, but also because ecommerce platforms and more specifically, Amazon, has frictionless entry, so any manufacturer can sell on Amazon, the competitive set is going to look a lot different than in a brick and mortar store where you have like a buyer making assortment decisions.Andrea:So, whereas there might be five or 10 nationally recognized brands in a brick and mortar store and maybe a couple of local players and private label, on Amazon, there is a huge long tail of brands that are not nationally distributed, maybe only sell on Amazon so that competitive set looks entirely different. And I think that's a big misstep that manufacturers make, is applying that same mental model, trying to look at like market share and category and ranking category, versus moving their thinking to the ecommerce world where there's really no such thing as a category.Stephanie:Yeah. The only time I can see categories being helpful is if you're in the browsing mood where you're like, I'm going to be having a baby, and I just want to see, what do you buy for babies? So like if you're in that browsing mood, which maybe isn't always high intent to buy, more just kind of looking around and maybe you buy, or if it's a curated category, like here's the guest for Father's Day. I have found those helpful where I'm like, I don't know what to get my dad, and on the homepage, it's like, "Here's a whole... " Maybe it's not a category, but the whole curated collection, pick one and go.Andrea:And that's where I think some of these category specific players win over Amazon. They do encourage more browsing because they are curated assortment, because their browse and data are really clean, and it's a more enjoyable experience. But if yo did try to shop by category on Amazon, the data shows that more than 90% of customers just go and start searching, you would maybe not like what you found. It's an overwhelming experience, it's not curated in any way. And then the categorization data is bad because Amazon doesn't use it. They're building a search platform more than they are building a browse platform. And I do think these other eCom players, this is where they can win over Amazon, is they make the shopping experience more enjoyable, they encourage browse, and they curate the assortment.Stephanie:Yeah. We just had on a company called The Fascination. It was about discovering new D2C companies and being able to browse around. But once again, that's highly curated versus just going to a category and being like, "Whoa, let's see what's here today. Oh, there's like 1,000 things. No, thanks." So if we're in a search world now, where you need to optimize for that instead of just worrying about being the number two water bottle, showing up in the category, how should a brand be thinking about that? How do you optimize for search? Are you bidding on keywords? Do you have to use just Amazon platform? Or is it more of like a holistic approach of like, you got to have a good product, you have to have good reviews, and all encompassing?Andrea:Well, certainly it's a whole package deal. There's not like one thing that drives all of the success. But I do think that really understanding that customer and the process we go through at Ideoclick and manufacturers could go through a similar process on their own is we identify these customer search groups. Identify the customer that you're going after and the product that meets their needs. And then from there, what are all of the search terms that customer might search when they're looking for that product? And then bouncing that against if there's any search philosophy. Amazon publishes that data, so it's knowable to know if a search actually has any volume associated with it. And then that's your customer search group. And then we're able to measure progress on achieving placement in search on that customer search group relative to the competition. So the way that we're doing that is, in a brick and mortar world, this would be like market share.Andrea:Like you'd say, "What are my sales over the entire category sales?" And in ecommerce what we do is share of search search. So we say, "What are all of my positions within those first 20, 30 search results relative to the entire set?" And obviously, there's some weighting associated with that, because like if you're up on top, that's more valuable, drives more sales than if you're like down at the bottom or the customer has to scroll a lot on their phones. So measuring that share of search for your customer search group relative to the competition.Andrea:And it does a couple of things that I think are a lot better than a brick and mortar market share model. The first is it very quickly identifies who your competitors are. So if you didn't know which... Most manufacturers don't know who their Amazon competitors are, and that's because manufacturers, when they're checking on their products on Amazon, tend to search for their brand name. So of course you're going to get your products. But if you take a step back and instead of searching for your branded facial moisturizer, you search for face moisturizer, you're going to see an entirely different picture of who's turning up.Andrea:And so this allows you to really measure your percentage of that customer experience, essentially, going back to the customer. And in addition, it gives you more of an upstream look at what's about to happen. So market share is, it already happened, your sales occurred and now you're measuring as a percentage of a total. This allows you to affect what's going to happen in the future, so it's an upstream, maybe an input metric versus an output metric. And then lastly, the share of search is measuring like a finite amount of the first or second page, which is really, as far as the customer is typically going on like a basic search...Andrea:And that looks a lot different in terms of number of brands than what you might see in like a finite category on a brick and mortar shelf. So there may be more brands, more types of categories represented, and measuring that as the percentage of a customer experience really allows you to develop some advanced strategies against those competitors.Stephanie:Is Amazon providing the tools so you can see your share of search, or are you doing this for your customers? Or if I was by myself trying to be like, "Who are my competitors?" Would I be going through the first three pages and being like, "Here they are? How do I figure out that share of search?Andrea:Yeah, it's really tricky. So we have software that does it for us, and share a search is our proprietary offering that we provide to our clients. But it wouldn't be hard to do a very simplistic view of this, which is identify like five terms that you think matter for your product, run a search and count how many of the first page you have. It's not a difficult activity. To get more nuanced about it and track it over time and track all the competitors and all of that, obviously you need some software, but you can do a really simplistic look. And this is often what we do for a manufacturer who is considering working with us, we'll take a look, we'll do a quick share of search audit and do exactly that exercise.Andrea:What are the five terms that we think matter? How much of the page they have, and who else is showing up? And you can really quickly see how you fair relative to those competitors, not just in the position of search, but like how many reviews do you have versus the competition? What's your star rating? What's your price point look like? What is your packaging look like? It's a very fast view of how you compare in this marketplace. And there are some really aggressive brands out there. We have clients that come to us and they say, "I'm private equity backed, I am a new go-to-market brand," no one has ever heard of them, "I have no distribution, and I want to get distribution in Costco next year, in a year. What is your plan for me?"Andrea:And we have a program for that. It involves a really, really large marketing investment. But but that's what these traditional manufacturers are up against, are these really upstart brands that are doing pure play Amazon and really trying to make a presence for themselves. And while they feel like ankle biters when you're just looking at the Amazon search results, next year when they are in Costco, they're no longer ankle biters.Stephanie:Yeah. Which is what's great about it. How do you think about when someone comes to you and says they want to be in Costco... I mean, I've read amazing articles about how Costco will make sure that your product... Like their product always has to be slightly better, but they'll also still work with you to make sure that your yours is selling as well. So one example was like Starbucks. They made sure that their coffee, Costco brand, Kirkland brand was a little bit better than Starbucks based off whatever criteria, but then they also made sure that Starbucks was also being sold, or whatever the brand name was, in a way that it wasn't cannibalizing.Stephanie:But Amazon feels a little bit different when they come out with white label versions of things. You see that, and you're like, "Oh crap. There goes my products."Andrea:Look out.Stephanie:Yeah. That's the one thing that I think sellers are scared of now, is Amazon just copying you? How do you deal with them?Andrea:Well, I think you touched on a couple of things. The first is the beauty of a value-added retailer like Costco for a manufacturer. In that model, in the value-added retailer model, the retailer takes responsibility for the inventory, for the promotion, for making sure it sells, for the profitability, for curation, deciding what the product should be. All of that happens on the retailer side. And that's true across traditional retail, whether you're talking about an ULTA or a Nordstrom or whomever, they own that responsibility. In marketplaces, the responsibility is all shifted back to the manufacturer, so they decide what assortment they're going to carry, they decide how they're going to price it, they have to promote it and market it. And it's a really different model.Andrea:So I think that's one interesting thing about what you were talking about, is that Costco does that. And when retailers complain about Amazon or say how much of their business Amazon's stealing, I think it's important to remember they're there to lean into their strengths, which is providing this value add for these manufacturers and reducing a lot of that burden, and usually, producing a higher profit margin for that manufacturer because they don't have to take on all of that work themselves. On the private label front, it's really interesting what Amazon's doing there. Some of the categories like consumables are getting up to about 10% of the sales being Amazon private label, which is really... And fashion, I think, was maybe even higher than that.Andrea:As a part of Amazon's antitrust hearings, they had to release that data and you have to dig around to find it, but it shares the percentage of each category sales that are driven by Amazon private label. It's really interesting. And manufacturers will often come to us and they'll say, "Oh my gosh, my life is over. Amazon just launched a private label in my category." But I think really, it's an opportunity for the manufacturer to really be more on their toes. And a great example of that is, if you take a look at Amazon Basics, they have a luggage spinner. And if you search luggage spinner, suitcase, or whatever, you see Amazon Basics and you see Samsonite and a bunch of others.Andrea:And the Basics, it's like a third of the price and it looks just the same. And I think what's really interesting here is that Samsonite has an opportunity. If you actually click through to the product pages, you still can't really see a difference. But as a part of an article I was writing, I then went to the Samsonite manufacturer site and actually specked out what's really different about it, and there were enormous differences. It was like a TSA compatible lock, it had all of these extra features that weren't even coming through on the product page, that certainly weren't coming through in the title and the search results and the hero image.Andrea:And so I think Amazon is going to usually come in at this lower price point and this more value driven offering. And for these manufacturers who have better bells and whistles on their products, talk about them. I mean, it's classic differentiation stuff, just the way you differentiate looks a lot different in an ecommerce marketplace. Like you have to do it through the images and you have to make sure that the bullet points really display that, you have to have a title that calls out something about the feature that's really unique. I do think Amazon's seeing a lot of success with their private label because they are able to leverage their own platform and they know it best.Andrea:But through share of search, we've also identified enormous holes in their strategy from a marketing perspective, like entire categories of keywords they aren't bidding on, and then you can get really granular and really go after those holes that Amazon's left wide open. And I think it's because I think the reason Amazon has those holes is they're using an algorithm to drive their private label. It's not people back there saying, "Okay, we got to bid on these five keywords. These are the ones that matter, and here are the features that everyone cares about." And then I think if you don't have a point of differentiation against Amazon's private label, it's time to take a real hard look at your product, because if it's that copyable, it's not just Amazon private label that can copy it.Andrea:But also, if you often look at the differences between the top selling product in the category... Soup's a great example, you can search chicken noodle soup on Amazon, and Amazon has totally innovated the packaging and the format of the product to address all of the customer complaints. Canned soup is terrible online, it dents. No one really likes to eat anything out of a can anyway. So Campbell Soup showing the can traditional format, you look at Amazon's chicken noodle soup, it comes in a reclosable box, which is one of the top complaints in the reviews about the Campbell Soup, which is like, "I can only eat half of it. And then what do I do with it?"Andrea:It ships in its own container, so they're all nicely tightly packaged into a box so it doesn't dent or get damaged in the shipping. It's way more profitable for both the retailer and the manufacturer. So I think there are some areas where Amazon's really innovated on the behalf of the customer and it should be keeping manufacturers on their toes.Stephanie:Yeah. That's such a great point. So many things to unravel there, thinking about, you need to be different and leaning into your differences. And the whole point of having a product is to have a great story and showcase your features and don't get complacent. I love that. I could see even being able to look through the data and find opportunities, just like Amazon is, of like going through reviews and seeing what is someone complaining about? Oh, so many people keep talking about this, creating a whole spin off product, I guess Amazon could do the same, but it seems like there's a lot of opportunity in the data that's already there too.Andrea:There is. And I think this is one area that large established CPGs really struggle, and it's because they have so many brands and they carry so many products. If you're a nutrition bar and you only have 20 items on Amazon and you're growing really fast, it's really easy for you to look through the reviews on your 20 items and come to develop some insights and say, "Okay five people are complaining that they think it's a little bit too sweet, or 10 don't like the sugar content," or whatever. And you can re adjust your product in your next product development cycle. But if you're a large established CPG working across so many brands, so many different categories, I did my air quotes there.Andrea:But if you're a large established consumer brand, maybe you've got 1,500, 2,500, 5,000 items, there's no scalable way to do that right now. And I think that's an excellent business opportunity for someone to get into, which is like really analyzing some of that consumer feedback. I actually just had an MBA student from Northwestern reach out to me through a connection wanting to talk about like that very business idea. She's like, "What about all the customer reviews? Who's got data, that's mining that?" And I'm like, "No one." There are some players out there like Reviewbox and I think Profitero, and maybe even Salsify to some degree that allow you to access them, because Amazon doesn't even provide them, you have to just look at them, and develop some basic insights and maybe some word clouds and things like that.Andrea:But there's so much more to be gained from those reviews that would really help inform product development.Stephanie:We've even heard from so many of our guests talking about the long tail reviews or where the insights are. I think we had someone from HP and then Stitch Fix, of course, talking about like, that's the ones that you need to dive into to see... If someone's providing paragraphs of data to tell you how to make your product better, you better be looking at that and seeing, are enough people saying that? To pivot whatever product you're working on.Andrea:Yeah. You really need some natural language processing technology to really make the most of those reviews. But either Amazon has it or they're just really good at it, because if you look at... I could give so many examples of this, but if you search short-sleeve wrap dress, they have an Amazon Basics, it's a top seller, I even have it. It's a great dress.Stephanie:How did they stick that one up?Andrea:And relative to like the top three other results, I mean, you go through the negatives on the other top three results, and it's like, "It's too short, so it's not work appropriate. It doesn't wrap enough to be able to sit down in it well enough at work. It doesn't come and extended sizes." Those were the top three complaints. And Amazons comes out with an offering that's more conservative, slightly longer, comes in extended size. It immediately just addressed all of the things, all of the negative reviews about the other top three sellers. They've either got something that's helping them do that, or they're just really good at it.Stephanie:Yeah. But I think that also just plays to the point of needing to be diversified and beyond all the platforms. I look at Walmart right now and so many influencers are showing me stuff from Walmart, I'm just even thinking... I've bought rugs in the past month, I bought an egg chair from Walmart, all because these influencers are talking about stuff at Walmart, which also I think has increased quality a lot, and they are becoming a larger player. Maybe their tech and backend still needs a little bit of work and out of stock issues and all that, but I do see them coming up strong. Target also. How do you advise the companies you work with to think about all the platforms and be on all of them and optimize for each one in a unique way?Andrea:Yeah. And I think that's really the million-dollar question, because up until a couple of years ago, those other eCom platforms didn't really matter as much, up until last year, they didn't even have ad platforms. The world is moving and changing so quickly. I actually was just giving an internal speech right before this to our employee base and I was like, "Retail, if you really go back, is meant to be a really simple business. It's, a manufacturer has a product, they sell it to the retailer, and the retailer resells it." And the people who grew up with that model, it's relatively uncomplex or simple process. But if you just look at what's happened over the last five years, even five years ago, you had to be advertising on Amazon and search engines like Google and maybe even Facebook at that time.Andrea:Now, there's social live streaming, there's social media networks, and you have retailer ad platforms. The level of complexity that these manufacturers are faced with right now, and if you think about the ones who lived through all of this, they weren't attracted to this field because it was a technology field, they were attracted to this field because it was really based in sales and product. And so the level of complexity that they are faced with is an enormous. And I was in a share group the other day where a manufacturer called the...Andrea:In our space, we're like the service providers, it's super fragmented, it's a ton of point solutions that help these manufacturers be successful across all these different platforms. He called it a Frankenstein, and this company that was presenting at the share group was working with 35 different service providers from data and analytics to execution, to strategy and execution and strategies, where we set to operations and EDI and inventory management, and how do you allocate inventory across all these platforms. So there's certainly no perfect answer to how do you think across the different eCom platforms, but I do think it's important to really think about, where's your customer?Andrea:Is your customer shopping on Walmart, Target and Amazon? And most of them are because most of them are cross shopping. Where else is your customer shopping? What category specific players should be really important to you? And then where are you most profitable? And where can you get a good ROI? And what platform do you use for what? For Target, it's a little bit more about that curated assortment being on trend with merchandise and being associated with, Target gives your brand a little bit of a boost.Andrea:Walmart stands more for value, Amazon is about assortment, and obviously, price and all of that, but I think really aligning yourself with the marketplaces that are core to your brand's identity feels really important. So the customer, what's consistent with your brand, and then in terms of the investments to make across them. A lot of the fundamentals are pretty similar, so that's good, you have to have those, you have to be retail ready. And the ad platforms are similar, but different in very important ways. And so I think when you think about how to allocate those investments, then it really comes down to profit and what you're trying to accomplish, if it's awareness, if it's maintaining your position in the market, whatever it is.Stephanie:Yeah. I always think about the opportunity that exists for manufacturers of creating a piece of tech that allows them to plug in all the inputs that they have to deal with, even when I'm having companies come on and say, "Oh, we feature D2C companies on our website and they have a backend place to log on." And like, okay, that's one place. Then they're on Amazon and then they're on Walmart, and they're trying to figure out their own inventory stuff. There's so much stuff for them to keep track of that it feels like there's no unifying source right now for them to be able to get a holistic picture of their company as a whole.Andrea:In fact, I got this urgent call yesterday from this guy, this colleague of mine that I've worked with in the past, and he's teaching a course at Harvard right now called The Future Of Work in one of the courses. And he called me yesterday, he's like, "Okay, I'm preparing for this thing, I'm making a deck, I'm showing this crazy environment that we're in with all these providers and all these different things that these manufacturers have to keep track of." He's like, "Who are the service providers who can help them unify it?" And I was like, "There aren't any. It's not because you didn't look hard enough, it doesn't exist."Stephanie:I always think like, "Who is out there?" I even asked an exec, I'm like, "What do you do?" And they're like, "Oh, it's just hard." I'm like, "Someone needs to solve this."Andrea:Someone needs to solve it. It would be a really big job, but even just take like logistics like 3PLs. So you can outsource your warehousing and your purchase order fulfillment either direct to customer or to retailers to a three PL. I just did this as a part of an industry trends report. There are tons of 3PLs 70 some percent of them have fewer than five customers each. So it is a super fragmented industry. It's so fragmented in fact that the new trend is a 4PL. And a 4PL is a broker that helps you manage all your 3PLs.Stephanie:I have not heard about that yet.Andrea:Isn't that crazy? That's like a new cottage industry, is 4PLs, and that's the broker that helps you manage across the other PLs, I guess the other 3PLs. And that's just in logistics. So it's a really challenging space and I think what ends up happening, the ones that end up suffering... Right now, I think the manufacturers are suffering because all of this complexity deteriorates their profit margins. And then they also have to advertise on the reseller platforms now too, which is new, and pay and pay for that. But I think in the future, eventually, if no one figures this out, the customer's going to have to pay for it because the prices are going to go up.Andrea:The manufacturers can't shift from 5% of their business online to 50% of their business online, which is a much lower margin business for them and not raise their product costs. I just don't see how that happens. So hopefully, someone will figure it out.Stephanie:Yeah. Do you see any manufacturers doing it well right now where you're like, "Oh, I just talk with someone and they are doing it this way," that seems like it's streamlining at least a piece of the process. It might not be all of it, but any stories there that highlight someone doing something really good?Andrea:I think there are a few folks who are doing a really nice job designing for online. So that's first and foremost, make the packaging and products such that it's low weight and it ships economically, because that's number one. If you can't do that, if you're trying to still try to sell dry bags of conventional dog food or cat litter online, you have no future in that. And so we've certainly seen like Clorox do some really interesting things in the litter space, Purina36:10 they're doing lightweight litter. There's some great examples of companies designing for online.Andrea:So, how do you build a sustainably ecommerce business? Well, make sure that it can ship well or the retailers aren't going to want it, and you don't have a future in it. So I think there's some good examples of that. Clorox is also doing, they did a green works product a while back that instead of selling three bottles of spray cleaner, there's one bottle with two tiny concentrate refills, so it's less water, it's less waste, it's more sustainable packaging. I'm certainly seeing some really cool stuff from some upstart brands. There's one called Ethique, which does shampoo and conditioner bars.Andrea:That's, again, less weight, ships really well, online store as well, it doesn't leak. And then we're certainly seeing a lot with Liquid I.V. and all of the electrolyte powder drinks. So moving from selling it as a bottle that has water in it that you can't ship to powder. So some interesting stuff on designing for online. I think there are some companies who do a really nice job like aligning their org structures to support ecommerce. I think some good examples of that would probably be, L'Oreal does a really nice job there, P&G has a pretty solid and smart eCom department.Andrea:There are a few CPGs who do a really good job there. And then I think the one that everyone seems to struggle with those logistics, especially the larger CPGs, they're built to scale products and ship truckloads and not necessarily fill direct customer orders or ship like super small quantities to all these little Amazon warehouses. So I think logistics is really been hard on the CPG industry, ecommerce logistics.Stephanie:Yeah. I only see it getting harder and worse. I'm thinking about my interview with Domm from Fast, and him talking about one click checkout where they'll batch the orders on the backend for you buy, buy, buy all in separate transactions, but that's still also encouraging one-off orders that maybe you wouldn't have had otherwise that maybe brands aren't used to, someone just coming in and buying one shampoo or something because normally they have limits. So I only see it getting more difficult as technology gets better and they figure out how to make things easier to buy, it just makes it harder logistically.Andrea:Yeah. And I'm starting to see, I just feel like ecommerce retailers have gone I've really come a long way on this in the last couple of years probably to compete with Amazon, but I can't remember which retailer said, he was Wayfair, I was shopping on the other day. And they suggest that, they're like, "Batch my orders, you can select it. It's like defaults to batch my orders, so they all show up on one day or you can check the other boxes, no ship them each as they become available. And Amazon has been also doing that because in ecommerce, at least on the Amazon, the average order's one.Stephanie:Yeah. And I think that's what Domm said that Amazon's been doing this for a long time, it's that most ecommerce companies aren't doing that. So that's why on Amazon, you can always go and hit, buy now, buy now, buy now, and you don't even think.Andrea:And they'll try and batch it.Stephanie:They'll try and figure it out, but you don't even have to worry about a cart anymore. And that seems to be the way of the future, but I'm just thinking about these smaller brands who are trying to, up and coming, trying to get their foothold and then be like, "Oh my gosh, customers are expecting to be able to just hit, click buy for one thing, and I wasn't prepared for that."Andrea:I think we're going to continue to see... We'll certainly continue to see Amazon grow, they had an amazing quarter, but also I think we'll continue to see customers really being less loyal. And I think that because these other retailers are really upping their game. And if you look at, there was a study that came out that showed the top reseller app downloads in 2020, Walmart was right there under Amazon. And granted Amazon is a huge in-store base, so we need to take it with a grain of salt. Wayfair was on there, Wish, all these other retailers.Andrea:And so I think the pandemic has forced us all to shop more online, but also due to product availability, shop more across retailers. And as a result, we have discovered that the shopping experiences on some of these other retailers sites are more favorable to the types of products we're looking for. Maybe even more fun or more curated or whatever it is that you're looking for, and I think the retailers are starting to figure out how to be more efficient with batching orders or, remember when you used to have to go get your credit card every time you placed an order online?Andrea:They're all saving it now, I mean, stuff that we take for granted because Amazon set a really high bar. Stephanie:Yep. I love that. I know we don't have a ton of time, so I want a quick touch on Bezos. I know he just recently stepped down as CEO from Amazon, so I want to hear your hot take on what does that look like for Amazon of the future? How do you see that changing things?Andrea:Yeah. Well, first I should probably say, I don't know, Jeff personally, and I don't have any inside information. I've been gone from Amazon for five or six years now, but I do think if I were him and knowing what I know about him as the fearless leader, he's an inventor, that's what he's really good at, he's really good at inventing and disrupting industries and inventing on behalf of the customer experience. And when I look at what he has really had to focus his energy on the last couple of years, even pre-COVID, you had the antitrust investigation, they were under intense scrutiny for their treatment of their warehouse workers, counterfeits on the site and fake reviews, labor unionization efforts, here in Seattle, they've been under just a ton of intense pressure for contributing significantly to local elections.Andrea:Our local government put in place a headcount tax just to stick it to Amazon. And it's been really intense here, and also a lot of discussion about their role in increasing housing prices and driving the Seattle's homelessness epidemic. The stuff that he's had to deal with, a super public divorce, all of that stuff. And then you layer in COVID and all of the operational complexity of that that he had to deal with, nothing in there is inventing. And if I were him, I would not only be exhausted because I think the best way to exhaust an inventor is to tax them with a bunch of drama.Andrea:And so if I were him, I would be exhausted, and I'd be really bored, there's no inventing in there anywhere. They've made some really interesting inventions, I guess, disruptions more, I think of them less as inventions, more of disruptions as it relates to transportation. And in the earnings call yesterday, they said half of their packages now are being delivered by their own fleet. Incredible. They are a huge transportation company now, and they'll probably license that out and just walk out, but there's not a lot of inventing happening now, it's all about scaling, managing under scrutiny and really going head to head against some super fierce competition for ad dollars and for customers.Andrea:And so if I were Jeff, I'd be looking at the future and I would just be like, "Not interested, if I were an inventor and I was Jeff. So I think that speaks to why he would step down, I think timing it with going out on the high note with the Q4 earnings being just astoundingly positive probably makes sense. It's interesting, I don't know a lot about Jassy, but I think he was the CEO of AWS for a very long time and he's really good at scaling a business and scaling a business against adversity or fierce competition. If you look at what they are up against with Microsoft, and I think they even like filed a lawsuit against for an RFP that they didn't feel like was handled correctly, he really has gone head to head.Andrea:And I think that that's maybe signaling that Amazon's going to be a bit more about scaling and more about competing and a little bit less about inventing going forward, which maybe that's the stage that they're in.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, with a couple of minutes left, we have a quick lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question, but this time, you only have 30 seconds or less. Usually I get people a minute, but you're so quick, I'm like, you can't have a minute. You get 30 seconds.Andrea:I'll do my best.Stephanie:All right. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Andrea:I'm going to go logistics. I think the ability for other retailers and D2C to prevail against Amazon or compete effectively with Amazon, is going to be their ability to ship fast and for us to see some consolidation and maturity in that industry.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. If you were to have a podcast, which you're about to, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Andrea:Our podcast that we're going to have is Melissa Burdick of Pacvue, who is a competing agency for us in the ecommerce advertising space, and myself. And we're going to be doing a hot take on ecommerce current events. And my job as VP of strategy is all about staying current on ecommerce trends and news. And it's even hard for me to keep up, there's so much happening right now. And so we wanted to really try to provide a value to the manufacturer community of helping keep them current and tell them what they need to know. And then more importantly, tell them what we think it means for them.Stephanie:I love that. I can't wait to listen. What's up next on your reading list?Andrea:On my reading list, oh gosh. Well, I guess on my reading list is a lot of research because I'm trying to write a book about eCom.Stephanie:You're a busy lady.Andrea:I'm a busy lady. I'm trying to write a book about ecommerce and really transitioning our thinking beyond that physical aisle, kind of some of the things that we talked about today. So a lot of my research right now is reading some other pieces of thought leadership around that. And in fact, on my immediate reading list is I need to read a case about Unilever for my class with Harvard on Friday morning, and it's all about Unilever and how they have successfully transitioned to an ecommerce framework and mindset.Stephanie:Oh, I could come to your class too, that sounds good. Awesome. And then the last one, one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Andrea:I don't understand, well, I think a couple of areas, one is that as a manufacturer thinking about when is the right time to invest in the most forward-thinking ecommerce technology, which in my mind right now is live streaming. And I don't know a lot about live streaming, I'm learning more about it, I'm certainly watching some of it and trying to participate in it. So nascent here in the United States, but in China, it is incredibly powerful. And in this Harvard class, they had a woman who's a super influencer in China comes to the class and she live-streamed in the class and she was selling Harvard t-shirts, and I think she sold, I don't want to say like hundreds or thousands in a minute.Andrea:It was insane. And then they projected what was on her phone to the screen and we got to see it. And it really blew my mind that we're in such a different place as it relates to ecommerce. So I don't understand it super well, and I want to understand more of it so we can do a better job of helping our brands transition.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a really good one. Definitely one I don't fully understand either, but I know it's very different market there, so maybe people shop differently, but any insights, bring in my way, because I don't get it either. Cool. Well, Andrea, it's been a blast having you on, I hope we can bring you back for round two in the future because I feel like I could probably keep going on for an extra hour if I didn't have a meeting in a couple of minutes, but where can people find out more about you and Ideoclick?Andrea:You can follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter, you can visit my website at Andreakleighconsulting.com. I write and speak and post very frequently about ecommerce. And you can find Ideoclick at Ideoclick.com.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us. It was a blast.Andrea:Thank you. Thanks for having me.

In 2008, the economy had tanked and John McDonald was left at a crossroads. Rather than withdraw into comfort, he took the opportunity to do something a bit crazy. John was a woodworker who spent time at trade shows, and someone once suggested that he make cabinet doors that fit with IKEA cabinets. With nothing to lose, John launched Semihandmade to do just that. Now, a decade later, Semihandmade has seen consistent double-digit growth year over year and has been featured in countless blogs, interior design social posts, on the feeds of influencers worldwide, and in the homes of tens of thousands of people. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, John tells the story from start to finish, including how he built a successful ecommerce custom cabinet model on the backs of the IKEA brand, and how he’s now launching into the DTC space with the first US-made custom cabinet DTC offering, BOXI. From finding the right partners, to building an omnichannel approach that doesn’t handcuff your resources, to challenging yourself to strive for more, you’ll learn something from John and his story that just might help you level up your ecommerce business, too.  Main Takeaways:Perfect Partners: For ecommerce brands taking on an omnichannel approach, there is no reason to tie up a lot of your resources into retail spaces and showrooms. Instead, exploring partnership opportunities with other brands in a similar category might be a mutually beneficial way to expand your brand, the brand you partner with, and offer an in-store experience to customers who seek one.Meeting the Moment: The world of home furnishings and interior design is changing rapidly, especially as A.I. and VR technology enter the marketplace. With that tech, users are gaining more flexibility to design their own spaces without leaving home, which means there is an opening for DTC companies that are tech-first. Step Up or Step Out: You can’t let competition scare you, let it inspire you to raise your game. By surrounding yourself with the best and forcing yourself to compete against them, you have to level up to simply survive, and succeed expectations to grow your business in a meaningful way.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, Cofounder at Mission.org. Today, I had the pleasure of chatting with John McDonald, the Founder and CEO at Semihandmade and also Boxi. John, welcome.John:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on. Before we get started, I was hoping you could give me a little background, and for anyone who doesn't know what Semihandmade is and also Boxi, how did you start it? What is it? How do I think about it?John:Sure. Semihandmade is a company that's been around, I guess, just over 10 years now. We're based in Southern California. We make doors that fit IKEA cabinets. What that means is, if you want to buy a kitchen, bathroom, closet media system, IKEA, for the most part, gives you the amazing flexibility of not buying their doors. For a kitchen, you'd buy the cabinets, you'd buy the interior components. Then we have over 40 different options from entry level doors to some really high-end, one-of-a-kind offerings.Stephanie:I love that. Do I think of it like white labeling? You take IKEA's [inaudible] and then you can add like rose gold fixtures on it, yeah?John:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The credit, obviously, goes back to IKEA. This is an ever expanding ecosystem that's been around probably for 15 years now. People that make amazing slipcovers that you can put on their sofas. People that make furniture legs, companies like us that make fantastic cabinet doors. It's a way to get a really high-end look for a really mid-level price.Stephanie:Cool.John:I'm even fortunate to grow quite a bit with that.Stephanie:That's great. How did you come to this idea?John:I'm always honest and clear that this was ... It's a spectacular idea that somebody gave to me.Stephanie:Who gave it to you?John:I think his name is David Stewart. I think he's a photographer. Look, I'm 53. I don't know if I'm older than a lot of the people you talk to.Stephanie:A little.John:I came to things a little bit later. I had moved to California from the East Coast when I was 21. Well, wanted to get rich and famous, work in the film business, didn't really have any kind of plan, bounced around with that, was writing, not making any money like everybody else I knew waiting tables. Then I woke up in my early 30s and said, I got to do something with my life. It was post 9/11, which is a wake-up call for a lot of people. I tried a bunch of different things. Then I somehow landed in woodworking and furniture making at first and cabinetry. I got good at it.John:Through the late '90s and early 2000s, that's what I was doing, Southern California based custom furniture and cabinetry company called Handmade. I worked hard. I approached it like a business into my late 30s, which was different than a lot of other people I knew, the craftspeople, spectacular artists, but just no head for business, no interest in business. I always looked at it like as a business like any other. That's what I was doing through, again, the early 2000s. I was networking and blogs just started to happen. I was doing a lot of woodworking shows but also design shows. At one of those design shows in 2008, I think somebody came up to me, this guy randomly and said, "Have you ever thought about making doors for IKEA cabinets?"Stephanie:Was that something that others were doing? Why did he have that idea? Then was like, I'm going to tell John to do that.John:It's interesting. Again, I always want to give credit where credit is due. On top of him, there was a company called Scherr's based in North Dakota that has been making doors for IKEA cabinets just a little bit prior to that. People are always making their own doors as well. It is because IKEA lets you not buy doors when you buy their kitchens. I don't know why he mentioned it. I think part of it was because when I did those shows, it was a show called Whelan Design, which is a great show in Southern California at the time and back when Dwell magazine was really in its heyday and just an iconic brand.John:I was always like the one off independent company. It was me and all the big brands. It would be like Kohler and Caesarstone and Sub-Zero. I was there alongside them with my little custom furniture setup. I don't know if he took a liking to me, but we just spent that day, the Friday and then the following day just talking about it. I had no idea what he was talking about at first.Stephanie:That's awesome. Then for people listening, I know when I first heard of your brand and was looking through it. I'm like, oh, it's just like a small thing, a big thing. Then I was looking through some of the stats and you've been named like the fastest growing private company every year by Inc. magazine [inaudible].John:Well, yeah, one of. Yeah, one of many. Inc. 500 originally, we've been on that list, I think, six or seven years now.Stephanie:You've had double digit growth for almost a decade, year every year.John:Yeah. It's exciting. It's, again, one of many things. I try to be candid and clear, but I never expected this. I never thought in a million years I'd be doing this. Every year that we were fortunate to grow, even my ambition or dreams, it got bigger. It's like get to a million, get to two million, get to five million. It's been exciting. Believe me, I don't take it for granted. That's why I enjoy doing things like this, because I always ... At 40, I was newly divorced. I didn't have any kids at the time. I have a son now. He was nine. I lived in my shop for a year, because I got divorced.John:I didn't have anywhere to live. I had options, but I wanted to hide. I lived in my woodworking shop. I lived on my sofa with my dog. I just said, I got to do something else. It was a huge wakeup call. Then that's when the conversation I had, I think, six to nine months prior. It was like, maybe I should try this. Again, in terms of the second acts in life, whatever, I was 40 and had no clue. 10 years later, more than 10 years later, it's different.Stephanie:Yeah, that's very inspirational. Cool to hear about and cool to see where you can start and where it can grow to. How did you grow the company? From starting out where you're woodworking, you're building stuff, and then you're like, okay, I'm going to buy IKEA stuff and make it better. How did you get in front of people and be found in general?John:Like anything, Stephanie, it's like you look back on it and as much as it was, a long journey at times were so challenging, whatever. You get through it, and you gloss over it. It's only when conversations like this that I do get an opportunity to look back. The reality was, again, I had a nice custom furniture cabinetry business. I had some really good clients. I work with some good architects and designers. Then in 2008, the market tanked. Everybody went in the dumpster. I had to do something else. Things had slowed down.John:I started saying to a couple designers and architects, "What if we try to do integrate some IKEA cabinetry into the custom project." Because at the end of the day, a box is a box, and you're just going to see the outside of the beautiful panels and the doors. There were a few people that took a chance on that. That's how it ... It's like anything. I was 100% custom in 2009. Then it's like, okay, you can start mixing it in and starting to organically ... I don't even know what kind of ... I wasn't doing advertising. Blogs had just taken off.John:Apartment therapy had seen see me at a design show and written about me, which was amazing. That was a really big deal. L.A. Times did a story on me, which is incredible. Yet it was always organic. Through 2010 and 2011, it became, okay, now we're doing half custom, half IKEA. Then every year, it's a little bit more headed towards full IKEA. The truth is, I don't know when it was, maybe 2013, when it was fully just making doors for IKEA. It was fun. It was always a steady progression, always growing every year.Stephanie:Yeah, sustainably growing, which is a lot different than a lot of the brand.John:Yeah, profitable every year. Beginning, doubling every year, which, again, was not what I expected. Part of that, what's funny too is I have a lot of incredibly supportive family, but also friends, guys that I grew up with. When I was in California at 21, or 22, or 29, or whatever, they were amazing. They love me. They were supportive, but they probably had no clue where I was headed. I didn't either. Now, it's fun. I gave them a hard time constantly about the fact that they probably gave up on me.John:Not in a bad way, but it's just ... I mean, I do think that there is a time to cash in your chips. It's great to have dreams. There was an interesting like Scott Galloway kind of thing recently about if you should follow your dream. His overly simplistic thing is definitely do not follow your dream. Because unless you're willing to pay your bills to start because following just exclusively your dream can be incredibly impractical. The people that you admire, suddenly, the people that I admire weren't these head up in the clouds kind of people. They worked really hard. I geek out on founder stories, things, podcasts like this. I'm fascinated by that. It's never an overnight thing, or at least it's rarely. Again, I'm 53 now. This is all house money.Stephanie:Wow, that's awesome. When you started, getting more money, you're doubling growth, more revenue, obviously. Where did you invest? How did you think about investing that? Because I'm sure you're like, woo-hoo! I'm going to go have fun now.John:No.Stephanie:No?John:It was never like that, no. It's interesting. I would say I like nice things like some people do. I'm pretty frugal. In terms of the business, everything lives inside the business. I had a partner at that point. Up until three years ago, we made everything in-house. I was the original guy making the doors and packing them up and then shipping them in New York or different places. Then my partner at the time, Ivan, came on board. He was the guy cutting the doors. Now, we were fortunate to grow.John:Eventually, we had close to 35, I think 35 or 40 people that were working in production. Up until three years ago, we topped out at 75 people and half of them were making products. Now I'm proud to say we don't make anything in-house. Everything, it's made around the US, some at the top manufacturers in the country. That was a huge shift. To answer your question, everything is in the business. That's why you see revenue numbers are different than other things.Stephanie:Yeah. What were some mistakes maybe that you remember where you're like, ooh, I would have avoided this if I were to do it again, or especially in the more maybe the past five years or something. Not early on when you're just ...John:Right. If we're going to say 10 years ago, the mistakes that I made were unavoidable in the sense that I was creating this out of thin air. Ivan and I were just making stuff up as we went along. We were two guys. He's a little bit younger than me. He came out from Boston. I came out from Philadelphia to be writers. In some ways, no business starting this kind of business. In the last five years, it's probably the mistakes that I've made are ... I don't know, maybe waiting too long to really build up the team, which is not to say that we didn't have good people, we did.John:Part of my job now is just looking at the next 12 months and 18 months and say, hopefully, where are we going to be? Where do we think we're going to be? What are we going to need then? As someone who is ... Again, I think pretty honest about their limitations or whatever, we only thrive with people that are smarter, better, or more experienced than me. That's one of the biggest changes in the last at least six months, where we really just hit the gas and brought in some really amazing complementary pieces.Stephanie:Yeah, cool. How do you think about building on top of another company? What if IKEA changes their cabinet line or does something different, did that ever worry you, building a business that's ... I mean, a lot of businesses are built on another businesses, obviously. How did you think about that?John:We've always been after market. With IKEA, it's pretty well documented. We've gone up and down with them. I think in most ways, they appreciate what we do. Certainly, it's undeniable that we sell kitchens that people wouldn't normally buy if we weren't available. They also, I think, hate a little bit that we're there. I don't know this is arrogant or anything to say. They're not going to change their model because of us. They're never going to not sell doors. Even if they did, I would say to people like, "Then just buy the doors that literally cost $2."John:Then we'll pay for them and recycle. Their model is that a la carte wide range of pricing. We've always been respectful. Again, I have immense respect for them and what they built. It's extraordinary. Even when my fiancé and I moved into a new house and it's like going there, buying the basics for the house, it's just nobody can beat it [inaudible].Stephanie:Yup. I'm doing that now as well. I think, like you said, you're opening up a market that they probably wouldn't have access, otherwise. When I'm about finishing this house now, I honestly would not have thought to go to IKEA to get cabinets. I don't know. Then when I saw you guys, I'm like, oh, well then you can have the finishings and the colors and the things that I actually want. I don't actually care what a cabinet is like inside or behind the scenes, but I care about how it looks. A lot of the IKEA stuff does look like you know sometimes.John:Yeah, it's understandable. Because at that scale, you can't get that fancy and creative. This is the part where I drop names, just in the sense that what I do love is we work with some really cool people that do make IKEA more accessible. It is people like Karlie Kloss and Coco Rocha and all kinds of celebrities and high end designers and influencers. They, more so than us, have normalized IKEA. That's good for everybody. If design is supposed to be democratic and accessible to everybody, there's nothing more accessible than IKEA. Obviously, Amazon, Wayfair, and things like that.Stephanie:Walmart? Walmart is coming back. I have bought rugs now, a little egg wicker chair. It's from following influencers. I'm like, Walmart is coming back.John:You're right. It's funny, because the same thing with my fiancé, Stephanie. Yesterday, she was looking at different coffee tables. She said, "This is ... " She showed me a thing. I was like, "That's awesome." She said, "Oh, it's like the Kelly Clarkson line." I was like, "This is great." It's true. Look, certainly, you can make the argument that some of that stuff is more disposable and it's going to go into a landfill and less sustainable. I understand that. The reality is, not everyone has the same access to disposable. If you can get cool stuff, it's reasonably priced and it lasts for a few years. I don't know. It's hard to turn that down.Stephanie:You mentioned that you partner with influencers and celebrities. How does that relationship work?John:Yeah. I think that's always been a huge differentiator for us, one of several things. From the start, I always felt no self-consciousness about reaching out to people. Whether it was blogs, I would say, "This is what we're doing. Here are some photos. I'd love for you to write about us." Or even influencers. The biggest one and the one that we worked with the most is Sarah Sherman Samuel. We've had a door line with Sarah for three years. That's a situation where, god, I think 2014 or 2015, she reached out and said, "Hey, I bought a bungalow in Venice. I love IKEA cabinets.John:I wonder if we could partner on some doors." We did a small collaboration, gave her a tiny discount. She painted the doors. She styled everything. She took photography. The kitchen went completely viral. It's one of those kitchens that is everywhere. I think a really cool Farrow & Ball paints, brass and mixture of this light green and white. That just opened the door to all these other relationships. People saw that and started reaching out to us. It's been an amazing thing. The truth is, we've gotten to a point where we've had to pull back on that because it's just a different way to market the brand. It can be expensive. It's definitely grown us, there's no doubt about it.Stephanie:Have you thought about Netflix series? I'm just thinking, wow, they should be on a home remodel type of show. How perfect is that? People always trying to do amazing things on a budget on like the HGTV [inaudible].John:Yeah. We've talked about that stuff in the past. I like that stuff. Again, I don't know. I do think it's interesting our growth. That's how I always look at things, behind the scenes of how businesses grow, especially within that. I do like someone we haven't worked with in a while, the Studio McGee, the Netflix series, which is great. That's really interesting, especially after listening to another podcast like our friends at Business of Home, where ... I left the podcast with so much more respect.John:Because my interaction with them was a long time ago, and then I just see the photos and the beautiful stuff. Just the growth that they've had and the behind the scenes, and again, hearing their story is really extraordinary. I enjoy watching that stuff. I don't know if I want to watch this. I get sick of hearing myself talk. Maybe if it's everybody else, that might work.Stephanie:Yeah. I was just thinking like, wow, that'd be a really good partnership strategy. I always bring up the Container Store partnership that they had on the Netflix series and just how much Container Store sales went up after that series.John:[inaudible]Stephanie:I can see why, same thing with cabinets and stuff.John:Yeah, it's interesting. Because even that, again, I'm a lot older than you, but in the early '90s, whenever Trading Spaces came on and that was huge like ...Stephanie:I watch Trading Spaces, just to be clear.John:I mean, even in the '80s, the godfather of that is like Bob Vila in this old house. That's definitely before your time. That was restoring amazing New England homes and stuff. It was master carpenter, Norm. I think Norm Abram is absolute craftsman. That was the start. Then you had Trading Spaces. Even now, you would have thought, after 10 years, that goes away, and it hasn't. That's the thing. Is it the ladies like Home Edit and stuff like that? I don't know. It hasn't evaded, it just only grown. Obviously, Chip and Joanna Gaines and the dynasty that they have built. It doesn't show any sign of stopping.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like the world is now just moving to a more curated collections like I'm going to look for someone who knows my style, so I don't have to waste time looking at everything. Whereas before, it's like, oh, I'm going to go to Target to get this, and then I'm going to go to Dollar Tree to get this. I make it up. I think, 10 years ago is very much about DIY, but all over the place. Now, it's like, okay, I'm going to follow Chip and Joanna Gaines, their line at Target, whatever that is, and follow the people that I know are my style and be ready to immerge myself in that brand.John:Yeah. The interesting, whether it's the 180 to that is the amount of growth that Restoration Hardware has had, where it's just almost like meteoric, being a complete luxury brand and selling the whole experience. It is like the Ralph Lauren of today, and now as they move towards hospitality restaurants and sounds like hotels. Part of your brain thinks, man, you can't sustain that. How do you keep growing? There is a market for that. Even when you watch the Studio McGee, their services are not expensive. Amber Interiors, who we work with, people like that, incredibly talented, at the really high end of the market. They keep growing.Stephanie:Yup. Tell me a bit about your omnichannel approach. I saw that you had showrooms around the country. Then you're, obviously, online as well. Now you're moving into DTC. How do you think about keeping a cohesive story of your brand but also expanding and reaching a lot of people on different channels?John:I guess the biggest challenge, if it is the biggest, it's just the fact that what we're selling comes at a higher price point than the average online purchase. We sell certainly, if you're doing a GODMORGON bathroom vanity, that then may cost $150, $300, $400. We're selling cabinet doors and panels and complementary trim and things like that that can cost $3,000, $5,000, $20,000. Again, it's not buying a pair of Warby's or an Olay bag for a couple hundred bucks. There's a lot to it, a lot of back and forth. Excuse me.John:Showrooms we're always a part of we've got to show people our product, especially when we're asking them to spend that much. The benefit of IKEA is, even though they're still a privately held company, there are only, I think, less than 60 around the US. What I could say to people to say to you, Stephanie, or wherever, like you're in New York, go to one of the five local IKEAs. Then come into our mini ... I never want to call it a showroom, because it could be 200 square feet. It's got some cabinetry in it. It's got door samples, things like that. There would be a whole experience.John:I would always say, if you want to see a kitchen, go to IKEA and you can see 15 kitchens or see 20 kitchens. Want to see the doors? Come see us. We've had that in New York, in Brooklyn, in Chicago, obviously, in LA, Minneapolis, a bunch of different places. Again, trying to be reasonable about that. I don't want the overhead of signing leases if I don't have to. What we've typically done and we will continue to do even more so is partner with other great brands. It is like a multi-brand approach.John:With our lighting friends, with hardware companies like Rejuvenation, Fireclay Tile, upcoming collaboration with Caesarstone, it's partnering with Cambria in the past. It's just saying, let's do this collectively. Because the kitchen is, as someone said to me, "The base purchase, if you're fortunate to have him as a house, there's a car, and then maybe there's your kitchen." We're trying to grow the company that way. We started what I think is an amazing ... I got to [inaudible] blog anymore. It's that. [inaudible] stories that launched last summer.John:That was the idea that I wanted to bring together all these great writers, great content to help promote the brand, of course, but also expand us, again, to make that cliché to becoming a lifestyle brand. On the one hand, it would be enough to have a really successful cabinet door company. I just think we have the opportunity to do so much more. That's what something else we can talk about, is this brand Boxi, which is going to launch at the beginning of March. That really is direct to consumer. That's our own product, no IKEA. That's a whole different thing for us.Stephanie:Alright. Let's move there next after my one thought. I've many ideas when talking to you now.John:Awesome.Stephanie:What about having like partnering with IKEA on their AR app or developing your own AR app, instead of having to have a showroom, being going to IKEA, pull up your phone, and then you can swipe through the designs of ours, and you can see exactly what that trim would look like, what that doorknob or whatever, so then you eliminate showroom.John:It is interesting. Look, the thing with IKEA, they have partnered with people in the past. Obviously, places like Target have done an amazing job of that completely. As you said, Walmart too.. It always seem like the natural fit with us. If you were going to do it with anybody, it would be us. In terms of AI, yeah. IKEA has been slow and is put a huge push in the last couple years of their online presence and their economy. They have an app they launched last month. What we are doing with the new brand is working with a 3D AI company called Skip. It's going to launch in the next few months. That lets you basically not go in showrooms.John:There are ways to order this new line of cabinets, and one of them is to make an appointment and someone comes to your house and 3D scans your room. Then you design remotely. With 80 hours of AI and machine learning and everything else, it's compressing that and then presenting you with design options.Stephanie:That's cool.John:That's where we're headed. All has changed dramatically in the last year. COVID or not, it was headed towards that. The new iPhones have the camera technology where you can almost do that. Maybe in 12 to 15 months, you don't even need a guy to come to your house. You can do it with your iPhone. They're already pretty close.Stephanie:Yeah, I think it's fair. I have a little tape measure app on my phone and it says, okay, scan the whole room. You do that and then you can measure everything. The placeholders all around the room for you and [inaudible].John:Yeah, it's fascinating. Even brands like Primer that launched last year, which do the work with other brand partners, and you want to click on like the Hygge and West Wallpaper, you can hold it up to your wall. They'll show you different swatches and things like that. It's interesting. For us, yeah, that is part of what we think is a differentiator. IKEA is always going to have massive brick and mortar. Even though they move in some cities towards smaller footprints, it's still footprints that are 20,000 to 150,000, as opposed to 300,000. There's another cabinet line that's launching.John:It just launched, it's got a 30,000 square foot showroom on the East Coast and 100 kitchens. You go in and wear the AR or the VR goggles. That's completely different because you're looking at some space that has nothing to do with yours. It's kind of what you're saying. The point is, things are changing so fast. With Boxi, it is saying, can you make this as DTC as possible? The caveat being, it could cost $10,000 to $15,000, to $20,000. It's not like ...Stephanie:Okay. Tell me what is Boxi then since we [crosstalk].John:Boxi is the first American direct to consumer cabinet brand. It's a cabinet system for the entire home. It's basically taking the last 10, 11 years of everything we've learned from IKEA and saying, let's try and offer something. I don't know, if it's ... I don't want to say better than IKEA. Because again, I've huge respect for them. It's a more complete package. Certainly, the quality is there. The accessibility is there. One of many things that we're going to improve on is the fact that Semihandmade customers have to go to IKEA first.John:It's a two-part process where you've got to go to IKEA. You've got to order the cabinets and hardware. Then you've got to order the doors from us. Thank God that they do, but especially in the last year, IKEA, like a lot of people, has suffered horribly with supply chain issues. We have customers now, unfortunately, it's January, they're hearing, cabinet boxes might not be available for three, four, or five months because ...Stephanie:I ordered a couch from Pottery Barn and four months out. [crosstalk] order, I just didn't look, I guess.John:As a business, on a personal level, that annoys me because I want ... That's a whole thing. We have such ridiculous expectations because they're easily met or they have been up until now. Not to blame Amazon because that's too easy. I'm a hypocrite about Amazon too. With Boxi, we're saying, no big box stores. Somebody can come to you, things ship, leave the factory in a week. Part of what we're doing, you're from Palo Alto, I don't know if you're born there, but it's almost like an In-N-Out Burger West Coast approach. Meaning we're going to do a limited number of items, and we're going to do it great. If you want ...John:What they do is they're great. What's interesting about that is they ... I think just little background on burgers. I think the founder was best friends with Carl Karcher who started Carl's Jr., another big West Coast place. In the '50s, they open hamburger stands right next to each other. The In-N-Out guy's thing was always, I'm not worried about competition. You're welcome to open across the street from me, next door, or whatever, because I'm just going to bury you. I'll just be that much better. Not like in an obnoxious, overly competitive way. Just like, this is going to raise our game. With us, with Boxi, yeah, limited selection, fast turnaround ships in a week, never need to go to a big box store. It's built in the US at a really competitive price point. That's the idea.Stephanie:I love that it's built in the US. I think that a lot of companies right now are bringing things back into the US and some are struggling seeing how expensive things can be and what was happening overseas and maybe how it's just different here. What did you guys learn from IKEA that you're taking with you? Then what are you discarding where you're like, we're going to do this different though?John:Again, in some ways, I learned everything from IKEA. Look, I learned a couple things. One of them is you can't compete with them in terms of pricing. That's the most basic thing. I always say like, with Amazon, the same thing, you can't ... I mean, then the turnaround lead time. Up until recently, with COVID, you could buy a kitchen today and bring it home today. Nobody else could do that at a crazy price. Best of all, really high quality. IKEA, to their credit, pretty much every year, as long as I can remember, the last 10 years, is right at the top of like J.D. Power customer satisfaction in terms of quality, customer service, things like that.John:You could complain about certain products from IKEA and their quality, but their kitchens, I think, are inarguable. As much as I'm not affiliated with them directly, I always get defensive when people would slag them. Because it's also understanding that the product that they offer, and this blows some Americans minds, but it's a particleboard core with a melamine skin, a three-quarter melamine box. That standard in the entire world for kitchen cabinets. The most expensive cabinet brands in the world are constructed the same way.John:In the US, that's less the case because 70% of the market wants a frame around their cabinet. It's literally a face frame cabinet. The European style that IKEA is called frameless 32 millimeter. Again, I've learned everything. We're deeply indebted to them.Stephanie:Well, is there anything that you're changing though now that you are exploring DTC that's [crosstalk]?John:Yeah. We'll always have the ability. With Semihandmade, one of the differentiators were ... You'll always have this when you're smaller, we're microscopic compared to them. It's just being able to be nimble, to be able to get more custom, to be able to offer certain versatility that they could never do. Limited run doors, ability to do appliance panels for really anything. The Semihandmade, we could always do that. We can do upgrades with matching ... We used to do open cabinets that match your doors and things like that. We do less of that now.John:With Boxi, what will be interesting is because the hope is anybody to scale and to have short lead times, quick turnaround, we're not going to offer as much customization. We've learned like what ... In terms of people's taste. We have eight doors, which are basically the biggest sellers for Semihandmade. It's basic white, gray, black, and some wood tones. It's not saying like we have at Semihandmade of 45 choices. That's fun to me. Because if anything, you can have too many options and that is paralyzing.Stephanie:Yup. Just going to say that I appreciate when things are curated or you showed me something cute and I'm just like, "I'll have that." Whatever that is, the white, the gold, and the brown, perfect. That's what I want. Not choose every single piece of it. Which I think is for a lot of ecommerce, that's what I've heard throughout many interviews, is don't give so many choices, show people what you think or know that they're going to want based off of preferences or how they're interacting with your site or whatever it may be.John:That's part of if there'd been multiple challenges with getting Boxi off the ground understandably. I think the biggest one is like you said, with even a call today, there was seven of us on the screen and I said, "If the seven of us were the typical technology guys or girls that knew nothing about socks, but we're launching a socks brand, we wouldn't bring all this baggage to it about what we thought we knew." With Semihandmade, we have all this great knowledge, but some of it can get in the way with the new brand.John:Because the new brand, for it to really work, you can't do all the customization. There are certain things that Semihandmade where we'll make exceptions and we'll do things. Of course, you always want to service the customer, first and foremost. It's just recognizing that if the goal is for this really to take off and grow, which I think it will, we have to be a little stricter, a little more brand fidelity, like say, this is who we are, this is how we get to where we want to go, and then stick to that.Stephanie:Yeah, that seems tricky. Having two different hats where you and your team are like, we know what works, this is what works, we build a company that does this. Then having a slow creep where you turn the other brand into the same thing. Like you said, you have to really be strict about creating a whole new company with a new vision and making sure everyone's on board and not just let the old company creep in and [crosstalk].John:I think in some ways too, whether in a good way or a bad way, the fact that we've been fortunate to have growth and success for Semihandmade, it's either made it easier or harder to get the new venture off. Because it buys you certain time. If we were a startup, we raised funding. We've got 18 months to runway all these different things that will be different. Probably, things have taken longer. On the other hand, we wouldn't have been able to do it. When this launches, what we leverage is, yeah, it's 10 years of Semihandmade. It's 25,000 projects. It's incredible.John:We have 2,000 semipro designers around the country that are champing at the bit to offer this. It's relationships we've got with Rejuvination and Kaff appliances and Caesarstone that are going to be partners. I continue to remind people and even myself like if we were a startup, we'd never have this stuff. We wouldn't have five, six amazing influencer projects that you're going to roll out in the next six weeks with the new launch. You'd be launching and then keeping your fingers crossed.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Alright, so let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have one minute or less, prepare, get your water, [inaudible], shake it out, do what you got to do. Alright, are you ready, John?John:Yup.Stephanie:Alright. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?John:That's great question. Do I have a minute for this?Stephanie:Yeah, a minute.John:I think it depends. I'm cynical about the fact that in some ways, yeah, a lot of companies have taken off, Instacart and things like that, but even like Wayfair. I was reading Bed Bath & Beyond today. I think the question is whether or not that'll be sustained. When life comes back to normal, which hopefully, inevitably will, certainly, people will be more inclined to shop online. There's no doubt about that. The world is changing. It's not going to go back. There are companies that have gotten a little frothier or whatever that I think that artificial is going to wear off. It's normalized.John:It's great. There's stuff I would have never done. Even with not ecomm, but with Zoom, we hired a new president, Beth and Molly, who runs marketing and stuff. I hired three of our highest people remotely. They're based in New York. I would have never done that. I would never trusted people or trusted myself. Now, it's normal.Stephanie:Yeah. I was slow with grocery delivery and curbside pickup. It forced me to do that because I was the one who always want to go to the grocery store, look around with my friends, whatever it maybe. Now, I'm like, oh, I don't really want to go there anymore. There's no point. I'll save my time and do other things.John:It is amazing. To me, it's more interesting to see how those people make money. That's the part where it's one thing to do great revenue. Obviously, profitability is a thing, unless it's not your money, unless you have a thing too. When it is your money, it's much more of a focus.Stephanie:Yeah. We just had someone from Intel on who was saying that they work with a hardware store and they're struggling because contractors were coming in and placing 40, 50 item orders for curbside pickup.John:All of it?Stephanie:Because they're like, why would I send in my contractor and paid him to be there for two to three hours when I could just have you all do it. They're struggling with trying to figure out the program because they weren't really expecting them.John:Yeah, that's interesting.Stephanie:I'm like, that's scary. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?John:Business wise or otherwise?Stephanie:Anything, whatever comes to mind.John:I guess the biggest cliché was my son's mom having my son. That's probably ...Stephanie:That's a good one. Having three kids, I appreciate that answer.John:I mean that from heart.Stephanie:Yeah, that's a good one. What's up next on your reading list?John:I constantly have five or six books I'm reading. That's interesting too, whether it's because I pursued writing for a long time. I haven't made the jump to eBooks. There are few writers that I correspond with on Twitter. Twitter is another thing that I didn't use that much before this. I've asked them like, "Well, what's the feeling on eBooks? Is it like cheating or whatever?" Of course, these guys and girls want to sell books. They're not considered cheating if you buy their eBook. The response I got from a bunch of them was, it's best in some ways for nonfiction.John:I read tons of nonfiction. I'm reading Say Nothing, which is a story about the troubles in Ireland. I'm finishing a great book on ecommerce called the Billion Dollar Brands book, something like that. That's spectacular. I've got so many. I'm reading a book on Chinatown, the making of the movie. I love a lot of different things. It is mainly. It's less fiction now. It is more nonfiction.Stephanie:Very cool. What is your favorite cabinet design? What's in your house?John:My house, it's interesting. Because in my house that I share with my son who I split custody with, we have a more contemporary kitchen. It's walnut. It's unique. We sell a fair amount of walnut and it is one of a kind. Every kitchen is different. That's a little more contemporary, even though it's wood. It's contemporary. In the house with my fiancé, where she lives, that's a more traditional. It's a shaker kitchen. It's got some really pretty hardware. I guess I'm very particular about what I like. In general, even when we she and I have arguments about furniture, I just say like, "Buy something quality and it'll fit with everything else." I know it's a copout, but that's where I'm landed. I love eclectic as long as it's nice quality.Stephanie:Yeah, cool. Alright and then the last one, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? Who would your first guest be?John:That's a great question. I like a lot of probably IKEA. I like a lot of different things. Even podcasts, same thing. I didn't listen to before, frankly, a year ago. I listened to one the other day. Marc Maron was really talented, funny guy who've been doing podcast for about 10 years. He had this guy, Daniel Lanois, who's a big time record producer, did U2 and all kinds of amazing people. I was amazed at the depth of Maron's knowledge of music. I don't have that. I don't know. I like diverse things. I don't know if I could do it.John:Because I like to think I'm a good listener, but I'm probably not because I'm always ready to say something. Obviously, like in your spot or whatever, to do it well, you should be listening to people. Again, I love screenwriting podcasts. I like anything. I like news, podcasts.Stephanie:Okay, so it'd be a little bit of everything. I like that. That's cool.John:I could do this kind of thing. If we're talking about remodeling, if anything, would always have an edge to it. If I were going to do a show, that's the thing. I gravitate less, maybe not towards Gordon Ramsay, but like Anthony Bourdain. There would be an edge to it. It wouldn't be ... Even when I was inside people's houses, I don't know if I was combative. I had very strong opinions about with architects and designers and homeowners and what I thought they should want. The one thing I don't like is when it's all sweet and sacristy and artificial. Totally with an edge.Stephanie:I like that. That sounds good. Alright, John, well, this has been a pleasure having you on. Where can people find out more about you and your work?John:Sure. Semihandmade, we can do semihandmade.com. Then Boxi, which launches March 1st, is at boxiliving, B-O-X-I-L-I-V-I-N-G.com.Stephanie:Okay, thanks.John:I appreciate the time. This has been great.Stephanie:Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. It was fun.John:Thanks for having me, Stephanie.