A weekly podcast for creative professionals looking to break down the internal and external barriers preventing them from doing the work they were born to do. If you’re anything like me you’ve struggled with comparing yourself to other artists, have had a lack of confidence, and even have gone as fa…
Vancouver, WA
As creative entrepreneurs, starting new businesses and projects are integral to your work. But how do you develop something new when your past business ventures have failed? Alicja Colon is a serial creative entrepreneur stepping into her fifth business, and she is back on the show to share how she is approaching it differently this time. From understanding her strengths to being more analytical and intentional in journaling what she is doing, Alicja shares several tasks we could all improve within our own businesses. We also talk about her podcast, The Fifth Try, the need to balance short-term needs and long-term growth, how she is moving from a scarcity to an abundance mindset, and her rubric for what she says yes to do.
If you were to write your story, where would you start? As an avid reader of biographies and memoirs, there is nothing more frustrating than starting a book about a remarkable life at the boring beginning. There may be moments at the beginning of our lives that are memorable, but what if our stories didn't start until much later? With a cultural fascination bordering on obsession with the youth, it can be hard to stomach that some people don't really start living their story until the twilight of their lives. Whether you are in your twenties, eighties, or beyond, your story can start today.
How do you respond when a publisher or audience rejects your creative project? How do you build your creative resilience, especially when your work is personal? These questions provide the foundation for my conversation with author Kate Nason. Her memoir, Everything is Perfect, is now available in print, and she shares the creative journey from 49 rejections to self-publishing. We also discuss the differences between audio and printed books, the role of grieving in our creative processes, and why we are more than just rational minds. Regardless of your medium, Kate's wisdom can help you work through the struggles that every artist faces in their creative journey.
Over the past several monologues of Getting Work To Work, I've been sharing chapters from my forthcoming book. After each episode, I had a similar reaction: I need to get this book in front of people to get notes to improve it. But I kept dragging my feet. Why? Why is it easier to get feedback on a professional project than on a personal one? Do I lack the ability to separate myself from my work? Do I trust people to give me feedback that will allow the book to be the best it can be? In today's monologue, I'm tackling these questions and sharing five tips for letting people into your personal project without losing your mind.
There is no silver bullet solution for every problem your business faces, from lead generation to revenue growth, just the fundamentals, and hard work. This statement is the foundation of my conversation with Steve Kahan, author of the new book, High-Velocity Digital Marketing: Silicon Valley Secrets to Create Breakthrough Revenue in Record Time. Throughout our conversation, he shares how talking with customers leads to creating content they need across the entire spectrum of the buyer's journey. He also talks about what he learned about digital marketing in his 1.4 billion dollar exit and what people often get wrong. Most importantly, he makes marketing accessible and understandable, one story, one tip at a time.
Before I started on the journey that is writing a book, I came up with the idea of The Curiosity Toolkit. Originally, it was going to be an online course. As the desire came and went to produce online courses as part of my business plan—I love teaching, but not in that medium—I archived the toolkit. As the structure and content of my book began to take shape, I realized the toolkit would fit nicely into the overall story structure. The Curiosity Toolkit is broken down into 14 chapters and uses our body, mind, and spirit as implements for our curiosity. I'll read two chapters from this section in today's episode: the introduction and soul.
If there's one thing I love about today's guest, it's that she knows who she is and makes zero apologies for filling the room with her awesomeness. Phyllis Williams-Strawder is the Ghetto Country Brandmother® and is a Certified Brand Strategist, business coach, and writer. In this conversation, she shares her love for business and helping people to become who they want to be. She talks about branding—what it is and is not, respecting your business, and not being embarrassed with who you are. Throughout the conversation, she shares stories and lessons learned along her journey from BBQ to branding.
How do you write about community when you feel like you're living in hiding? When you don't want to commit to another group of people because past wounds are still oozing and ugly? You accept where you are at and let the words flow. Could healing come from this moment? In today's episode of Getting Work To Work, I'll share a chapter about avoiding community from my forthcoming book, A Curious Journey: Learning to Co-exist in Solitude, Relationships, and Community. I've had my fair share of struggles with different communities over the past twenty years, but I'm not ready to be a hermit just yet.
What do you do when you are endlessly curious about how people get the most out of their lives and maximize their professional efficacy? You find a way to deliver context-dependent content—what you need when you need it. Mark Herschberg is an author and creator of the Brain Bump app and is back on Getting Work To Work to share about the changing world of content. Yes, an endless supply of information is available to us 24x7, but what is shifting is how we consume and retain information. In this conversation, Mark shares the stories behind Brain Bump, how it works, and the iterative process he went through making the app. He also mixes in various shareable moments on topics such as our careers and niches, laziness as a design principle, brand awareness, and the creative process.
Last week on Getting Work To Work, I shared about the book I've been writing and read from a chapter about silence. I received a positive response, which encouraged me to continue sharing. So this week, I'm moving to the next section of the book, which is about close relationships. The chapter I'll be sharing is about human evolution, the changes we go through, and our expectations of others to never change. But before I do that, I want to let anyone listening know this: your art, your words, and your lives are important, so never stop sharing them with your loved ones.
What would you discover about yourself if you reexamined a significant portion of your career? Today's guest on Getting Work To Work recently collected and edited 25 years of essays into a collection called Who Hears Here?: On Black Music, Pasts and Present. Guthrie P. Ramsey, Jr. has many talents and interests: a musiqologist, professor, writer, pianist, composer, producer, podcaster, and filmmaker. In our conversation, he shares lessons learned from examining his past and how he continually weaves between interests and ideas. Guthrie talks a lot about collaboration and being open to others, the cycle of dream-plan-execute in creating new things, and how he is in constant dialogue between what he's collected and what he's experiencing now.
On November 1st, 2021, I embarked on the journey of writing my first book. My process was simple: I wrote every day by hand in a notebook. Little by little, I captured my thoughts until I completed the first draft over a month later, on December 5th, 2021. I then started transcribing the words into Scrivener, and over the next month, the book started taking shape. Another month went by—a little bit of editing happened—but I slowed down. Then eventually, I stopped. Why was I so willing to write ferociously in the beginning? Why was I not afraid of the blank page but frightened of finishing? I got in my head. I let fear stop my progress. And I became yet another person to start a book and never finish it until a friend challenged me.
How do you embrace change, not only for yourself but also for your team and your clients? Today's guest not only thrives with change but believes it is essential for the long-term success of life and business. Patti Julber is the owner of Complements Home Interiors in Bend, OR, not to mention a designer, contractor, coach, and board member of BendFilm. In this conversation, we talk a lot about change, learning new things, and the role of failure in business. She also shares what she learns from others as a coach and the value of nurturing a creative community. If you are struggling with change, I think you'll find a way forward in this conversation with Patti.
You ever have one of those moments when you knew you made the right decision, but then the outcome didn't reveal itself when you wanted it to? Did I make the right decision? Is the presence of doubt a sign that I should make changes to my plan? Should I have stayed? When doubt takes over, managing all the questions in your mind and conversations with trusted advisors can be exhausting. Today on Getting Work To Work, I'm getting curious about doubt and its relationship to impatience, fear, and the creative process. We all feel it, sometimes change our minds because of it, and mostly view doubt as a negative experience. But what if doubt is actually a positive indicator of something else? That you are right where you need to be on your creative journey.
What amends do you need to make for your past creative sins? How can you forgive yourself for the past creative mistakes you've made? Two deep questions from my conversation with Gary Rogowski—furniture maker, podcaster, author, and teacher. In this conversation, Gary shares stories that inspire his latest podcast project, Creativity: Hustlers, Fakers, and Thieves. Additionally, we discuss the creative process from different angles: forgiveness and humility. It was an enriching conversation to have and to return to in the editing process. I hope you'll learn much from it as you continue your creative journey.
Not too many people can draw out my silly side like gough of BeernutsProductions.com can. Back for his 15th appearance on the show to promote his 27th film, gough shares several behind-the-scenes stories about his latest film Couples Therapy. From buying provocative costumes and respecting actors to on-set hilarity and shenanigans, gough, as always, brings his wisdom as an independent filmmaker to the show. He even takes a few moments to be serious as he talks about maintaining confidence as an artist, taking risks, handling criticism, and how to live a creative life.
I always love conversations where I can throw away my list of questions and listen deeply. Lydia Lee is a Work Reinvention Strategist who is curious about how work can work for you. In this conversation, she shares her journey from breakdown to breakthrough and how she created a life that she is proud of and impactful for others. She talks about the role of disruption in her schedule, why moving to another country forced her out of her comfort zone, why you need the right people in your life to tell your dreams to, and why you don't need to make massive moves but can make change a project. Grab your notebook because Lydia brings all her wisdom to Getting Work To Work.
Today on the podcast, I want to talk about something important to every business: metrics. Specifically, the metrics, numbers, data, whatever you call it, that you chart to give you a glimpse of your business reality. When you work for a giant corporation, there is a wealth of data and statistics at your disposal. When you are a business of one, you still have a lot of metrics available to you, but which ones really matter? It can be hard to say—and depending on who you listen to—you might just pick the wrong one. In today's episode of Getting Work To Work, I'm exploring a new way to approach metrics as I rebuild my business.
What do you see when you stop and examine your life and career? Do you recognize a need to shift and actually change? Or do you stay for a myriad of reasons? Jennie Blumenthal is the author, speaker, and executive coach of Corporate Rehab and helps people detox from hustle culture to find purposeful work. In this conversation, Jennie shares her story of leaving a 20-year career in corporate America during The Great Resignation. She talks about her REHAB framework, what keeps people from moving forward and changing, how to pay attention to significant wake-up calls, and leading at a higher level without losing yourself. Whether you work at a corporate job or for yourself, there is a lot to learn in this conversation about bringing purposeful work into focus.
Building upon the success of two books of interviews and a podcast, J. Blake Fichera is bringing his passion for horror film music to a new medium: a feature-length documentary called Scored To Death: The Dark Art of Scary Movie Music. In this conversation, Blake shares how the project is a natural progression of experiences and relationships. With the first five interviews recorded, he is now putting together a crowdfunding campaign to raise money for the film and a brand new cover album of horror themes. In addition to learning more about this project, Blake talks about a variety of things pertinent to all creative professionals working on projects: intentional decision-making, influences, the importance of relationships, and the value of asking.
Tom Hubler is a family business consultant who helps family businesses discover generational success by creating a shared family vision, building emotional equity, and developing a plan for the business and the family. In this conversation, Tom shares his wisdom regarding the emotional side of business. He also explains the four plans family businesses need, the last challenge of entrepreneurship, and why having a new dream is essential. Whether you have a family business or not, Tom has a lot to offer you as you contribute daily to the common good.
There always seems to be another excuse for "why not." Why I can't learn a new skill, explore a new technique, or start a new project? In the land of 1,000 excuses, the excuses keep me safe and secure from harm and change. But what happens when you leave the land of 1,000 excuses? That's what briefly happened when I worked a retail job for five months. Not only was I learning new things, but I was actually surprised by what I was able to do. I rewrote old stories about my capabilities day by day. In today's reflection, I'll share how I left the land of 1,000 excuses and how it is not a one-time deal but a daily practice.
How would you describe your relationship with health and fitness? Perhaps you're like me and you make extreme changes when your health gets worse than you want it to be. Or maybe you're like today's guest and you have a firm personal fitness identity built upon foundational lifestyle habits. Luke DePron is an online weight loss coach for busy entrepreneurs and the founder of the Live Great Lifestyle. In this conversation, he shares his passion for health first and fitness second. He tackles a wide range of topics from sleeps impact on productivity to mistakes entrepreneurs make with their health. Luke is a firm advocate for making decisions that will impact your life. I hope you'll find something in this conversation that will improve your own relationship with your health.
For the next month on Getting Work To Work, I will share several impactful experiences from working in a retail environment. Spending eight hours a day walking on concrete floors, helping customers, and making sure shelves are full, one tends to witness a multitude of experiences, both positive and negative. In today's monologue, I'm unpacking one of my most valuable learning opportunities: shutting out the world and getting to work. I wouldn't say I lacked focus before, but I was easily distracted by text messages, email, and social media, not to mention internal worries and concerns. I got a lot done by learning how to shut out the world and focus on the tasks at hand. Now, how to bring that back to my daily work where the temptations are all around?
Skye Rapson is an academic and ADHD coach who works with many employees and managers with ADHD. Her neurodiverse-run ADHD support service, Unconventional Organisation, combines researched articles and coaching to help people reduce overwhelm in their daily work lives. In this conversation, Skye shares how her ADHD diagnosis at the start of her doctoral program took her on a journey from academic tutor to entrepreneur. She talks about the different ways neurodiversity shows up in the workplace and how understanding ourselves and those around us is crucial. She also explains how the get-in-focus routine helps those with ADHD to get started on their work. Whether you have ADHD or not, there is a lot to learn about yourself and others in this conversation.
It's always a treat for me to spend an hour with gough from Beernuts Productions. In today's interview, he shares all that went into his latest film, The Kidnapping, including the inspiration for the film, where he bought some of the film's props, how he approached the script, and the importance of rehearsals. He gives many valuable tips for creatives on developing a repeatable process and asks one of the best creative questions: "Where can I take this next?" We also talk about his podcast and how he develops connections with fascinating people from all walks of life.
A funny thing happens when I talk to people: I hear amazing stories. I'm not sure where this ability comes from, but I can trace it back to a young age when I would listen to my parents and sisters talk about what they were going through. This ability to listen is excellent, but I've also learned to listen within for the question I really want to ask. And that's when the stories start pouring out. In this episode of Getting Work To Work, I'll share a few ways to listen and five questions I love to ask that draw out stories from anyone. By the end of this episode, you will have the tools necessary to hear unbelievable stories of love, loss, success, and failure. You'll never know how it will impact your creative future.
It's been an interesting time of decline and I'm honestly enjoying it. I'm not talking about society, culture, or my business, but my artistic ambitions and connection with others. It all started when I read this phrase in a book by Eric Barker: "the right amount of weirdness." I'm a weird person, I'll admit it, but I've learned to hide it, so I could be accepted by as many people as possible. I've even shoved my weirdness aside when it demanded to be shared with others. What did I get for my conformity? Burnout and boredom with my creative pursuits. Fortunately, the way forward is clear to me: embrace the void so in obscurity my weirdness can thrive once again.
The first time I heard it, I took great offense. But I started to hear it more and more. From an older generation who remembers life as it once was and no longer is, of a singular expert worker who knew the answer to every question and the solution to any problem—even if no one said it aloud. "I guess this is what we get nowadays" is not an ideal way to start any engagement, but the perfect statement to reflect upon in today's episode of Getting Work To Work. Yes, technology and convenience have changed the world of work, but they have also changed our expectations as customers. How are we to respond as workers?
Living a creative life isn't always glamorous and Instagrammable. Sure, there are perks: a level of autonomy and creative freedom that doesn't exist in other organizations. But what do you do when you are chasing a vision that you wholeheartedly believe in and have moments where you can no longer see your way forward (or even backward)? When the path is missing, do you keep flailing around looking for salvation or stop and wait for a change in perspective? So many questions as I stop and recognize that my own path has disappeared for the moment. I know where I want to go, but I think I need to continue groping around in the dark for a bit longer.
Why do you buy new gear? Is it to achieve your creative vision? To compete against other creatives in the marketplace? To be cool? To realize unknown ideas? There are a million reasons to buy new gear and many valid counterpoints for using what you have. Regardless of where you sit on the continuum between new equipment and using what you've got, injecting the occasional purchase of something new into your rig can be inspiring and spark new ideas. But how do you do that if you are short on cash or don't know what would be the best use of your funds? I'm going to share a few ideas on today's episode of Getting Work To Work.
Are you a team player or a lone wolf? For most of my career, I have worn the badge of the lone wolf. I wanted to show my strength and capability without needing anyone else. I would take offense when wise elders told me I needed to build a team around me: "I'll show you!" Because of this mentality, I would take jobs I knew I could do alone. And even in moments working for larger companies, I was still a loner. I didn't fully engage in the team around me, and eventually, I returned to what worked in the past. But what if the work that I needed to do was let go of old stories and accept what my future self is becoming?
How often do you fear what other people will think and say to you and about you? For as long as I can remember, I've always been afraid of the anonymous collective of imaginary haters waiting to pounce on me the second I put something out into the world. Because of that, I don't like to ask others for feedback, and I often keep my voice silent on issues and topics important to me. Fortunately, I'm slowly learning how to respond to the actual voices of others — in front and around me. The more I do that, the stronger my connection to my creative soul, and my fear of "the others" loosens its grip on me.
How often do you get ads for proven systems that help you create more content faster? For me, it seems almost daily. A year ago, I would have loved a plan to help me do even more than I was attempting to do. But today, not so much. I want to do less, at a slower rate, so I can do the work that truly matters. In today's episode of Getting Work To Work, I'm going to explore seven bundles of questions that will help you examine a downshift from fast to slow. It's not going to be easy, but much like driving the speed limit, you usually get to the same place at the same time as those weaving in and out of traffic.
As I've been sharing recently on Getting Work To Work, I've been putting myself in situations that reveal how much I don't know. I have to learn as fast and as safely as possible. Most importantly, I have to recover from mistakes quickly. Some days it just feels like my best isn't good enough. Sometimes people get upset, which in turn makes me feel awful. And that perhaps presents the most valuable skill anyone can learn: how to bounce back quickly after a setback, conflict, or mistake. If you are a chronic people-pleaser like myself and want to find a way to be okay with giving your best, even when it isn't enough, this episode is for you.
How do you learn new things? Are you like me and read books and other sources of information until you feel confident enough to try? Perhaps you're like others and love watching videos or listening to podcasts to get the same hit of information acquisition, but in a quicker way. As life-long learners, it seems like there is a never-ending source of learning opportunities until one day you wake up and ask yourself a powerful question: how do you learn new things? I grapple with this question and more in today's episode of Getting Work To Work.
As I look back over the past twenty-plus years of working, I can see a clear pattern of behavior that I'm not proud of: an attitude of irreplaceability. I said yes to every task and increased my level of responsibility, not as a way of helping out and making an impact, but to prove that I belonged. To show that my work was great, even if it wasn't that good. And to hold others for psychological ransom about how hard it would be to replace me. What a horrible attitude! Fortunately, as I get older, I not only learn how replaceable I am but how the attitude of impact can actually get me what I always wanted.
What problems are you interested in solving? How would you tackle them in unique ways? Claire Schmidt, CEO and Founder of AllVoices, combined a passion for finding the root causes of massive problems with her interest in using technology to develop solutions. In this conversation, Claire talks about how she took her experiences in large companies, start-ups, and non-profits to learn about the issues that affect workers and create a company that provides communication tools for employees and leadership. She shares the importance of asking questions, networking, and building healthy cultures from the bottom-up. Whether you work for yourself or at a large company, there is a lot you can learn from Claire.
I was feeling it, massive burnout. Creativity seemed to take every ounce of my energy. My curiosity was absent. I was finishing significant projects, but other things were falling through the cracks. Bills were piling up, and I just couldn't breathe. I couldn't wrap my mind around the work I needed to do to move forward. I was tired of delaying the big decisions I needed to make to begin the healing process. I've been in this place before, and I didn't want to make the same mistakes I did in the past. I wasn't looking for salvation this time, just change. I didn't want to close my business; I just needed some relief. So I did something completely different. And found a new road to creative recovery.
Have you ever felt the desire to write a book, started writing, only to give up for some reason? Chances are, you are like most people. Fortunately, there is a way to get a book out of your head and into the world. Chandler Bolt of Self-Publishing School is today's guest on Getting Work To Work and he is here to share a few of the methods he uses to write books and create business revenue with them. In this conversation, he introduces the MORE Writing Method, why writing is a short-term sacrifice to develop a long-term asset, and why you don't need to worry about imposter syndrome. He also explains how he prioritizes his work to get a lot done.
As creatives, there is always something new to learn, and occasionally learning opportunities can be found in unexpected places. Michael e. Stern is a commercial photographer, educator, and fine art photographer who is here to share a recent experience engaging with an email scammer. There is so much to learn about clear communication, negotiation strategy, and paying attention to the fine details from this exchange between Michael and the scammer. We also talk about his transition from commercial photography to fine art photography, including websites, identity, and mindset.
Today's guest on Getting Work To Work is Tim Tortora, an ex-movie-producer and outsource CFO for producers in Hollywood who has poured his wisdom of a 30-year career into a book, How To Make It In Hollywood: What Writers, Directors, Actors, Producers, and Crew Need To Do To Break In. In this conversation, Tim explains what goes into the production process and how it's like catching lightning in a bottle. He also shares how to make a career in Hollywood, avoiding "The Hollywood Con Men," and how technology is changing the industry. Whether you want to land your dream job in Hollywood or run a thriving creative business closer to home, you need to hear what Tim says.
Do you have a life-first business, or do you let your business rule your life? Ashley Gartland is a business coach obsessed with time freedom and space for the things that matter most—for herself and her clients. In this conversation, we explore her subtractive, life-first approach to business, how to do less but better, and the role of experimentation in making changes. We dive deep into permission, beliefs, assumptions, and the stories we tell ourselves. If you are a business owner struggling with burnout or needing to find a better way to run your business, Ashley's wisdom can help you find a path forward toward success and enough.
Back on the show to talk about his latest production with BeernutsProductions.com is a long-time friend of the show, gough, from Australia. In this conversation, gough shares stories about all the vignettes, insights, and stereotypes that went into making The Education System. In typical gough fashion, he provides numerous lessons in marketing, brand naming conventions, and handling criticism. Not to mention how to pay better attention during interviews. For filmmakers, he also illuminates deeper insights into his writing style and how he manages his film productions.
I love routines. I used to get up early, read for several hours, write and gather my thoughts for years. Then two weeks ago, my established and well-worn routine crumbled to pieces as my wife and I welcomed a new member into our family: Cosmo, The Wonder Pug. He doesn't care about my need to read and write. He wants to eat, poop, play, and sleep. Quickly we learned that puppies need structure. As we planned his days, I realized just how much my routine required a reset. It had become a disgusting pile of day-old poutine leftovers.
Last week, several friends got together to talk about success and career development. I was invited to participate but couldn't attend due to an appointment, but I've been thinking about the question, "What is success to me?" since then. I didn't feel I had much to offer at the moment. Perhaps it's because I don't have traditional notions of success anymore. Maybe it's just that I don't feel successful or even deserve success. But I think it's more that I have outdated definitions of success. In today's monologue episode of Getting Work To Work, I'm going to share a few thoughts, stories, and ideas about what success is to me today versus 25 years ago when I was starting my career.
What does leadership mean to you? Today's guest on Getting Work To Work answers that question by focusing our attention on the intensely personal journey of leadership instead of gimmicks, tricks, and mimicking our heroes. Edward Tyson is the CEO of PerSynergy Consulting and author of From Expert to Executive: Mastering the SOPs of Leading. In this conversation, Ed shares the story behind the LeadershipSOPs: the "Standard Operating Procedures for Structuring, Operating, and Perfecting your Communities of Effort." He also talks about his love of patterns and people puzzles, where insights for leadership come from, and what it means to run people-centered businesses.
Not a day goes by lately where I'm not thinking about reinventing myself and the work I do. I find myself working more with my hands, which lead me to reach out to Gary Rogowski and invite him back on the show for another conversation about craft, failure, practice, process, and constant improvement. Gary is a furniture maker, writer, and teacher. In this conversation, he shares how he reinvented his work over the past year, along with his curiosity for geometry, storytelling, and bird watching. He also has a lot to say about problem-solving, the secret to focusing, finding success with the small things, and how teaching truly impacts a craftsperson.
What comes to mind when you hear the word happiness? Would you be surprised to learn that there are 31 types of happiness? Pamela Gail Johnson is today's guest on Getting Work To Work and shares her passion for all things happiness. From her early days of wondering where all the happy people were and forming the Society of Happy People to the four principles she writes about in Practical Happiness, Pamela's work will hopefully broaden your understanding of what being happy means to you. She also describes what happiness zappers are, the impact of happiness in the workplace, and the three happiness holidays recognized worldwide.
It's been a week full of reminders of past loves. At times, I was reliving distant memories from the pre-pandemic days, and other times, seeing the echoes of dreams lost in the passage of time. From travel, chasing down photo opportunities in the desert of Arizona, and meeting my brother, to listening to everyday people telling stories about their lives and impacting the community through their service, I felt the rekindling fire of what I once loved to do. And it felt refreshing as I continue my creative journey into the future. What are the forgotten and forsaken loves you've left behind in your creative journey?
Have you ever asked yourself, "How do I use my time more effectively?" What about, "How can I be more efficient?" Paul Minors is a productivity consultant who helps his customers answers these questions and better understand the tools and systems that ultimately deliver more value to customers. In this conversation, he shares his tools of choice—Asana, Pipedrive, and Zapier—and much of his philosophy around automation and productivity. He also illuminates some fundamental concepts, including the source of truth, making time to work on your business, being his own client, and time blocking.