Leadership Answer Man | For Leaders Managers Entrepreneurs & Influencers with Dr. Hans Finzel

This episode is going to serve as a bookend as I take a break from podcasting to regroup and reenergize.

In this episode we recap the Learn to Lead series including every letter in L-E-A-D-E-R.

In this episode I cover: Why should they follow you? What's more important in leadership: to make a mark, or leave a legacy? Why Should They Follow You? Of all the reasons why people should follow you, what means the most to you? They follow me because I am the boss. They follow me because they have to. They follow me because I pay them well. They follow me because they like where I am taking them. They follow me because they respect me and trust me.

In this episode I will cover: The mistake of focussing on your gifting The story of Richard and his fall from grace How Moses grew into a great leader in 3 stages

What we will cover today in this podcast: 1. God is watching me - and us 2. Six barriers to finishing well - no matter what your age or where you are in your career 3. What it means to have integrity

What I cover in this episode: 1. Why poor delegation is so damaging in leadership 2. Four questions every follower asks 3. Why a lot of leaders suck at delegation 4. Tips for excelling at great delegation - how to be hands off but not out of sight 5. Leave you with ten great action points related to delegation

Today’s Podcast is brought to you by the letter “S”. That is a letter that gets a lot of action! S is for “ Servant Spirit.”We are going to unpack the true nature of Servant Leadership - A topic I find is very confusing. I have shared about this important topic in past episodes, but I have some fresh new insights for you today.Today’s Podcast is brought to you by the letter “S”. That is a letter that gets a lot of action! S is for “ Servant Spirit.”We are going to unpack the true nature of Servant Leadership - A topic I find is very confusing. I have shared about this important topic in past episodes, but I have some fresh new insights for you today.

Resilience is very different than determination. In this episode I contrast difference. How flexible are you? Do you bend or do you break when things get difficult or when dramatic change occurs? One of the traits of an effective leader that every new leader has to master is becoming a resilient person. Resilience is being spongy, flexible and able to adapt. Don't make the mistake of having your methodology become your theology.

One of the most effective responsibilities of any leader is clear and effective communication. In this episode I will show you what that looks like.

Determination is a huge part of being a successful leader. Another word for this would per persistence or courageous leadership. I to start this podcast with a story of my own determination through a very tough time. We all face these times. If I asked you to name one of your top biggest times of discouragement, what would it be? I can think of a big one - when I was betrayed by a dear friend. My board chair turned on me. One reason this was such a difficult situation is I couldn't fix it. I had to endure it for a couple of years. I love to resolve conflict and fix things that are broken. But sometimes we have to live in the midst of a big discouragement. It reminds me of my son who's been in the job for about 18 months that is true.

Did you know that accessibility is absolutely essential for today’s’ leaders? No corner offices and executive floors! Welcome back to our series on Learn to Lead: Ten Essential Skills Every New Leader Must Master. We have covered L: Listen and Learn, and E: Emotional Intelligence. Today I want to talk about A: Accessibility, and along with it Vulnerability. Beware of the: Ivory tower syndrome Corner office syndrome I have devised a simple test to determine whether you are task or people oriented. When you are working at your desk, and someone comes up to talk to you just for conversation, do you stop work, smile, and chat until the conversation comes to its natural conclusion? Or do you grimace inside and do anything you can to get the conversation done as quickly as possible. If your answer is the latter than you are one of us: the ‘Type A’ personality who tends to measure success by getting our lists checked off.

Today we are going to cover the “E” in leadership. It stands for EQ, or Emotional Intelligence. It is also known by EI or EQ. I am going to use EQ. I had one of my listeners recently say this to me about my podcast. “It’s not really just about leadership, it’s about being a healthy person.” I loved that feedback. Really that’s what emotional intelligence is all about, it’s about being a healthy person as a healthy leader. Thank you Jordan in Lyle, IL. Emotional Intelligence counts for twice as much as IQ and technical skills combined. According to research, performance success is one-third IQ and two-thirds EQ.

I am starting my new series on the top ten skills every leader must master in order to be effective. This new series is based on input from my listeners and my own journey of leadership. I am not going to tell you ahead of time what all the letters stand for..that is up to you to gather as you listen! Today we are going to cover the “L” in leadership. It actually stands for two words….. L – Listen and Learn! The two most important words in a leader’s vocabulary. Keep Listening! Listening. “Listen” is the most important word in a leader’s language. Just because we are the leaders does not mean we are the only ones with a voice. The L in leader stands for listening. I hear from so many followers and stuck employees, “My boss just won’t listen to our input.” How do you feel if you are not listened to? Unimportant Marginalized Waste of time trying I am invisible My opinions are not respected I am not respected I have nothing to contribute Leaders often love to talk. They enjoy listening to their own great pearls of wisdom and insight. Sometimes they even begin to believe their own press reports. And as they gain more authority, they have less reason to listen to subordinates. Have you ever noticed that there is much more horizontal communication in an organization than vertical? Coworkers are always talking about everything, but the communication between those coworkers and their superiors is much less frequent and much more formal. Leaders must figure out ways to tap into that underground flow of information. They must keep current on the undercurrents.

This week I have a great interview for you with Dr. Mick Ukleja! Dr. Ukleja is a Consultant, Teacher, and Writer who studies and teaches leadership and works extensively with Millennials as they are the future of the workforce. Top Leadership Lessons that Dr. Mick Has Learned “Leadership is synonymous with becoming yourself. It is precisely that simple, and that difficult.” Warren Bennis. This means if you can’t lead yourself, you can’t lead others. Passion is a responsibility that we need to work on everyday. It includes mastering our moods. Life is about motion or movement. We have to get in the habit of acting before feeling, which prevents procrastination. Affirmation is a key to mastering moods and controlling our self talk. Our fears and doubts can be our allies, as it is God’s way of pointing out where we do not trust him. Fighting the ImposterSyndrome: this is a form of self talk that says: “if people really found out the truth about you they would not think you are as smart or successful as you think you are.” Concentration is something you need to be brutal about. “Simplify to amplify.” Do whatever you can to eliminate clutter in your world to minimize distraction: make your bed, clear your desk, get rid of stuff you don’t need. The Ability to Self-Differentiate: knowing where you end and others begin. This is the concept of togetherness and separateness. Too much separation causes us to miss out on be connected to others and be “in the loop.” If we are too close to others we get enmeshed in other people and leads to mob psychology and not thinking on their own.

How do you survive the rough and tumble of change warfare? Is it by developing a thick skin? DO YOU REALLY NEED A THICK SKIN? No. In fact, developing a coarse emotional hide is the worst thing you could possibly do. Making yourself impervious to pain means shutting yourself off from most of the nuances and intricacies of life — and business. I’ve seen leaders become thick-hided and insulated before, and it only led to their demise. Before long, they became so well-insulated that they could not hear the whispers of common sense, interpersonal resentments, or even approaching trouble. For a leader whose greatest responsibility is to sense how the proverbial wind is blowing, that is the kiss of death. Rather than a thick hide, the thing to develop is a resilient one. One that can absorb the blow, not deflect it. Instead of trying to develop ways of never feeling the attack, work on ways of processing it more painlessly and efficiently.

Welcome to episode 60! I am so excited to have been podcasting for 2 years, and have 60 episodes out there for you. I hope you are enjoying these shows and learning and growing in your leadership. “Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with great talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination alone are omnipotent.” (Bennis and Nanus, Leaders–The Strategies for Taking Charge, Page 45) This week I want to discuss courageous leadership. I want to start with a letter from a friend of mine who is head of a seminary, that is embarking on major change in his life and how he is doing so with courageous leadership.

We are continuing the series from my book Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make with the second half of Chapter 7: Communication Chaos, Singing from the Same Page in the Hymnal. I hope you are enjoying it.

This is a continuation of my series on my book Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make. In this chapter we are discussing the communication in our organizations, some best practices, and how it evolves over time. In this episode I cover: Never assume that anyone knows anything. The bigger the group, the more attention must be given to communication. When left in the dark, people tend to dream up wild rumors. Communication must be the passionate obsession of effective leadership. 

This is the third in our series on my new book Launch Your Encore, written with my good friend Rick Hicks. In this episode we cover: 1. The Old Man and the Sea 2. Four Areas where Choices are Looming 3. Old Dogs Can Learn New Tricks 4. Gandalf - yes there are great lessons to be learned from the wizard!

This is the second in our series on my latest book Launch Your Encore, which I co-wrote with Dr. Rick Hicks. While the first episode covered some of the basic ground work on this topic, in this episode Rick and I are going to unpack the idea of having a vibrant life after your traditional career ends in greater detail. Life Stage Development Dr. Rick Hicks studied life stage development under Peter Drucker, which mirrors society. Whereas at the beginning of the last century Dr. G. Stanley Hall recognized the stage of adolescence between childhood and adulthood, today we are seeing a stage emerge that is after adulthood but really before old age when people are retiring from their traditional jobs to enter a new stage of mentoring, which we are calling “Elderlesence.”

This episode is part one of a three part interview with my co-author Rick Hicks on our new book Launch Your Encore: Finding Adventure and Purpose Later in Your Life. You can get more information on the book at it’s website: Launch Your Encore.com. Rick and I met about 20 years ago at a conference for leaders of missions organizations. After several discussions on Baby Boomers and what to do when you get to the end of your career, we began outlining and creating the book.

This is a continuation of my series on my book: The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make. Today I am covering Chapter Six: Dirty Delegation. In this episode I cover: Over-managing is one of the great cardinal sins of poor leadership. Nothing frustrates those who work for you more than sloppy delegation with too many strings attached. Delegation should match each worker’s follow-through ability.

In response to asking my listeners to share their pain points with me, I share in this episode some of the biggest that I received. Thank you for doing that! I have collected a lot of great material – sorry for your pain! Today I am starting to talk about those points and how I would suggest dealing with them. I NEVER mention any names. Your sharing is always safe with me.

This episode is based on Chapter 5 of my book “The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make.” In this episode I cover the nature of dictators and why they are so terrible to work with and work for. Dictators deny the value of individuals. The major players in any organization are like its stock- holders: They should have a say in its direction. The one who does the job should decide how it is done. “Flat” organizations are the model of the future.

This episode is based on chapter 4 of my book, The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make. In this episode I cover what a maverick is, how to identify them and why they are so crucial for the future. Mavericks can save us from the slide toward institutionalism. Large organizations usually kill off mavericks before they can take root. Mavericks make messes by their very nature—the good messes institutions need. Learn to recognize truly useful mavericks.

This is the last in a series of shows on Passion in leadership, based on my new book The Power of Passion in Leadership. These episodes stand on their own but if you would like to “catch up” you can checkout episodes 46-49 for the related content. In this episode I cover: If your heart has been robbed of it’s passion, you have 2 options: get your groove back or move on. This episode is on the second option. Sometimes you need to cut your losses and take the plunge.

his is a continuation of my series on the Power of Passion in Leadership, which is the title of my new book, due to on Amazon January 7th! In this episode I cover: A Pain point about being scared to confront problems on your team, including problem team members Getting Your Groove Back An extensive list of ideas for how to get your groove back Some great resources to help you I have a friend whose name is John. We have known each other since high school. John’s family has a very successful company in Alabama. His grandfather started the company, and then turned it over to John’s dad, who turned it over to him. It has just kept growing and prospering through the decades. They are very good at what they do. When John’s dad turned the reins over to him, he tried to run the company but did not enjoy it at all. He was not wired to be a CEO or a COO. He loves computers and the nuts and bolts that a company needs behind the scenes. He finally sat his father down and said, “Dad, I love our company and I will always work here, but I cannot run it. I can’t and I don’t want to. It is not good for the company or for me to even try.” So John became the chairman of the board and loves his work for the family business, but the family hired a very competent person to run the place. That is healthy convergence. John got his groove back after being in a place that held no passion for him.

This is a continuation of my series on my new book, The Power of Passion in Leadership,January. In this podcast you will learn about all the piranhas out to steal the passion from your heart. In this episode I cover: Piranhas that can rob you of your passion Both professional ministers and “ministering professionals” can burn out and become a part of the “walking dead.” I was speaking at a conference the other day and had a pastor come up to me after I spoke. My talk was titled, “How to know when it’s time to go.” I could tell immediately that he was flat emotionally. “Hans,” he said, “I am totally bored in my job but have no passion to do anything else.” Honestly, my first thought was that I felt sorry for his congregation. I asked him how long he felt this way and what was going on in his life. He shared with me that he had been through intense counseling to get some answers. The professionals told him he was depressed and burned out. This man is truly among the walking dead that I will explore in just a moment. I wanted so much to give him a silver bullet of hope—some easy fix for his heart. Trust me, his situation is not easy to fix.

Do you know that there are wrong and right reasons for leading? You probably know some of the right reasons – calling, gifting, wanting to make a difference, stepping into a leadership vacuum, clearing up confusion, wanting to help everyone succeed. But do you know that there are deadly wrong motives that keep a lot of people in leadership too long? And those kind of leaders are tough to follow! This is a continuation of my series on the power of passion in leadership. In the last podcast episode I laid the ground work for this subject, this week I want to delve deeper, discussing finding your passion at work.

The power of passion in leadership is something I have spoken about before, but over the next few podcasts I want to delve deeper into the issue. This is also the subject of my next book which was released in January of 2015: The Power of Passion in Leadership. In this episode I cover: A Pain Point from a woman in leadership who feels like she is not heard in her organization. Information from chapters one and two of my upcoming book “The Power of Passion in Leadership.” “Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do the work you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Don’t settle.” – Steve Jobs

Today I want to talk with a millennial about millennials in leadership. I get a big kick out of listeners in that age group. After all, they are going to take over the world so we should be pouring our wisdom into them and listening to them as well. Among the answers I received regarding pain points in leadership, I received this great question: If you please, would you consider sharing a podcast with some leadership advice for millennial striving to demonstrate the value they have to offer and coaching on how to best work through conflict in the workplace? I see so many individuals who are uncomfortable when dealing with conflict and think that with a little help and guidance, we can overcome that which makes us uncomfortable and move forward to positive solutions. Thank you for your willingness to share your experiences and grooming those who are itching to influence the world around them!

Leaders make things happen. People try to stop us. That is the reality of the way the world works. In order to be a leader, you must enact change. That is the only way things get better, no matter how much people don’t like it. We take people to the future by moving them from the comfortable to the uncomfortable. People try to resist us…but resistance is futile! In this episode I cover: Go through the list of reasons for change in this episode and ask yourself, “Are we experiencing any of these?” Describe them. Build your rationale list for why you as a group really need some changes. “For any student of history, change is a law of life. Any attempt to contain it guarantees an explosion down the road; the more rigid the adherence to the status quo, the more violent the ultimate outcome will be.” Henry Kissinger

This episode is based on Chapter 14 of my book Change is Like a Slinky. In this episode I cover: The five different types of people on the change curve How each of these groups thinks How you should approach each group, and how to get them on board with your idea for change. Whenever someone has a great idea and pitches it to others, the idea can either be received well, or shot down as it comes out of your moth. It is quite likely that you have been a person with an idea that was killed right away, as well as one that has killed an idea before it was off the ground.

Emotional Intelligence is known as one of the “soft skills” of work and leadership, which include things like being able to connect with people, to look them in the eye when speaking, or to be able to walk into a crowded room and connect with others without shying away into the corner. Traditionally when being evaluated for a job managers tend to look for hard skills such as experience performing a task, where you went to school, etc. Henry recently worked on a project with his team, trying to increase their emotional intelligence. They started by reading 2 books on emotional intelligence (see the list at the bottom), took the Mayer-Salovey-Caruso Emotional Intelligence Test (MSCEIT), talked about the process, and then looked at the changes in themselves at the end of the three month period.

This episode continues my periodic series on the chapters of my book “The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make.” I am so excited that the audiobook version is coming out soon. A lot of people have asked for this so they can listen to the book while they are driving, or working out, or making dinner. In this episode I cover: Everyone thrives on affirmation and praise. We wildly underestimate the power of the tiniest personal touch of kindness. Learn to read the varying levels of affirmation your people need. Everyone needs praise, in fact we thrive on it. Human beings are not like the Energizer bunny that just keeps going and going, we need to have our tanks replenished, with praise and positive affirmation.

This is part 2 on how to be a great delegator! This is such an important topic that I just had to stretch it into 2 episodes so I could make sure I really cover it well. Delegation is really an issue of respect, and how much we respect those that are “under” us on our team. With responsibility comes the authority to do a job. If you respect people, you will give them authority with responsibility. Even if you have difficulty respecting the people you work with, you can still set a good example for them by being respectful, and allowing their responses that do not come from a place of respect show their true colors.

This podcast is based on my book “Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make,” specifically Chapter 6: Dirty Delegation, Refusing to Relax and Let Go.” The important concepts to take from this chapter: Overmanaging is one of the great cardinal sins of poor leadership. Nothing frustrates those who work for you more than sloppy delegation with too many strings attached. Delegation should match each worker’s follow-through ability. A perfect example of “Dirty Delegation” comes from my own career. I asked my Communications Director Ted to put together a print ad campaign for our ministry. At the same time I met with a brand consultant, who said that print ads were their specialty. After Ted and his team did weeks of research and work developing a campaign, I had to tell him that we were going with the concept of the consultant. I never bothered to tell him he was competing, I just gave him the project, then took it right back from him. You can only imagine how Ted felt. “I’d rather get ten men to do the job than to do the job of ten men.” —D. L. Moody

Are you “people oriented” or “task oriented”? This week I am going to address this topic as it appears in my book “The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make.” We all fight the battle of paperwork, especially today with all the different ways that people can reachus via phone, text, E-mail, instant message, and more, and all right on our smart phones that are with us wherever we go. The problem is that leadership is about “people work”which I am going to address from Chapter 2 of my book. What I cover in this episode: The greater the leadership role, the less time there seems to be for people. The greater the leadership role, the more important “peoplework” is. People are opportunities, not interruptions. Only through association is there transformation.

This is the second in a series on how to lead change effectively. If you have not listened to the first in this series that is okay because these episodes stand on their own as individual lessons that build on the theme of orchestrating change. Without Consensus, change is Dead on Arrival In order to orchestrate big change in your organization, you must first start with your inner circle of leaders and stake holders. If you don’t you risk catching them by surprise and alienating them because they were not at least consulted and told what was going on, what you are planning to do. “Move to maestro from macho in the way we are thinking.” Warren Bennis

This is the second episode with guest blogger and amazing leader, Kathrine Lee. Today she shares, "Women in leadership. I am asked about this topic quite a bit. I am not writing this from a political perspective, a position of hierarchy, and certainly not from a religious one. I am simply responding from my experience, my respect for men and love of women. To discuss this topic, we first have to ask a question, “What is a leader?” The definition includes words & phrases like: a person who guides or directs a group; authoritativeness, influence, command, effectiveness; sway, clout; one who goes before or with to show the way; to guide in direction, course, action or opinion..."

A Guest Blog with Kathrine Lee, The Ultimate Source A few years ago when Oprah launched her new network, OWN, she ran a contest for anyone whose dream was to have their own TV show. The grand prize was a contract with her network. Because I had the privilege of being on her show a couple of times, I was encouraged to audition. At first, I was excited and it made sense. If I was a leader and wanted to create change in the world around me, what better platform than having your own TV show connected to Oprah? But something was unsettled in me. I couldn’t figure out why I had such great hesitation and deep conviction that this was not the direction to go. Then it hit me. I don’t want to be famous, I want to have influence. Now, I know you can be famous and have influence too but, for me, there was a distinct difference in the way I wanted to go about making an impact on the world around me. Let me share the definitions to each word. In them the distinction becomes clear.

Change is great when you are in charge of it, but not so much when it is thrust upon us. In this episode I want to discuss how leaders manage a major change initiative, get others to see the vision, and recruit them to help you lead the change into fruition. “A Change imposed is a change opposed.”-Spencer Johnson from Who Moved my Cheese? Today we are talking about urgency for change and the human nature of making this happen. Change often seems difficult, but not changing can be even riskier. We need to change so we can improve. You have to watch out for the condition that I like to call “The hardening of the Categories” that prevents us from staying lean, flexible, pliable, and open to change.

Good News! After many requests, we are working on producing my best selling book “Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make” into an audio book, which should be out sometime later this year. To celebrate, I will be reading from some of the chapters of the book here on the podcast. In fact for this episode, I will be reading from Chapter One. What I cover in the podcast this week: A reading of the first chapter of “Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make” which deals with the most common leadership style, the top-down attitude. Why this leadership style is so prevalent, and why it is so ineffective. The development of new, more effective styles of leadership over the last 40 years. An explanation of Servant Leadership, which is what I teach my students, along with the greatest example of this style in Jesus Christ.

OK, I am so confused. I love parts of my job but there are some that I just hate. Some weeks I am ready to hang in there, but more weeks I am ready to move on. I feel beat down. I have lost hope most weeks. I just don’t know whether to hang in there or start looking for work somewhere else. What I cover in the podcast this week: A common question, “How do I know when it is time to move on?” (Many people struggle with this every time there are setbacks and discouragement’s). The Grass is greener syndrome. Ten Signs that It is Time to Go. Necessary Endings. “An unfulfilled vocation drains the color from a man’s entire existence.” Honore de Balzac

Thoughts from Henry Deneen: In determining fitness for hiring, or incompetency once hired, many employers focus on the so-called hard skills, including indicators such as aggressiveness, follow-through, speed, being fast and persistent. While these are important issues in hiring, training, and equipping employees, they are by no means the only or even the most important factors. Incorporation of so-called soft skills may be of equal importance in determining the types of people to seek to represent an organization. These skills are defined as creativity, listening skills, team skills, being open to criticism, and being team players as well as areas of “Personal Competence” (self-awareness, self-management) and “Social Competence” (Social Awareness, Relationship Management) and constitute an individual’s emotional intelligence (EI). It is possible that “people can improve their EI and make lasting gains that have a profoundly positive impact upon their lives.

I had a board member of my organization that told me a couple of years ago, “Hans we don’t need to think outside the box, we need brand new boxes!” So how many of us are really comfortable with thinking that way? For most people, change is hard. But leaders have to change and they have to embrace dreamers. This podcast is about learning to take risks, think outside the box and dream a new dream. I hope you will listen. Peter Drucker says this about living with risk-takers in our organizations: Every organization needs risk-takers, to discover… 1. Risks you can afford to take. 2. Risks you cannot afford to take. 3. Risks you cannot afford not to take.

This podcast: Seven failures in my leadership and what I learned from each. What can we learn from our mistakes? I highly suggest you do a couple of things. First of all, listen to the podcast! 1) Make a list of your greatest mistakes that YOU have done and what you learned from them. Reflection is a powerful tool for learning. 2) Listen carefully to what I am sharing with you today – try to avoid this common mistakes.

Thanks to all of you who wrote me tough leadership questions. I am going to tackle them today on my podcast. I am not going to mention the names of who wrote these questions because it could get you in to trouble with your supervisor or your direct reports! But thank you for sending them to me!

Listen, guys . . . you’ll never get to the bottom of the complex nature of the female heart. But try as best you can to learn all you can. It’s worth it. This is the challenge put to husbands as Hans and Donna Finzel humorously and poignantly engage a hard but true principle: If you don’t understand how you do it wrong, you’ll never know how to do it right. But the Finzels are quick to add, this book is not a put-down on men. It is a fresh glimpse into how most women are wired and how their men can run with, not against those currents. Drawing from their surveys of dozens of married couples all over the world, as well as from their own 25 years of marriage, Hans and Donna explore how to turn the top ten notorious marital faux pas into doable acts that say louder than words, “I do love you.”

Mentor is “an experienced and trusted adviser.” This episode I share about all the people that have helped me along the way in my journey of life. Have you ever taken the time to list these people in your life?

Listen to this interview with Rick as we discuss our new book, and why Boomers will reinvent retirement in the coming years. A lot of boomers we are asking the post career question, What’s next?” Our book is the answer to their question. Boomers must learn to be intentional about finding meaning and purpose in their sixties, seventies, and eighties (the 60-80 window). With the average U.S. life expectancy reaching eighty, the authors’ purpose is to help readers recognize that they are entering a new life stage, identify the positive changing landscape of late life development, and discover how they have the potential to maximize their new role as elders in this culture. No longer retiring at 65 and dying soon there after, people are ending up with a whole lot of life left after their main careers.+