Podcasts about donald maass literary agency

Join me today as I welcome Emily Winslow, author of Time to Write, to Online for Authors where we discuss some of the key components of writing outlined in her book. Emily Winslow lives in Cambridge, England. She's the author of a Cambridge-set series of crime novels (The Whole World, The Start of Everything, The Red House, Look For Her) and the memoir Jane Doe January. Her books have been published by Random House, HarperCollins, Allison & Busby, and Shanghai Translation Publishing House. Emily trained as an actor at Carnegie Mellon University's prestigious drama conservatory and earned a master's degree in museum studies from Seton Hall University. For six years she wrote for Games magazine, creating increasingly elaborate and lavishly illustrated logic puzzles. She lives with her husband and two sons, and teaches at the University of Cambridge Institute of Continuing Education at beautiful Madingley Hall, where she is the Course Director for Cambridge's MSt degree in Crime & Thriller Writing. Emily is represented by Cameron McClure  at the Donald Maass Literary Agency. Time to Write by Emily Winslow is an awesome author craft book written by someone who is an author and professor teaching writing. Over the years, Emily taught many different classes and finally decided to put them all together into a book. What I loved about this craft book is that it is less about what you must do and more about things you should keep in mind when writing. She doesn't say "Write your book this way," but instead suggests you think about things like the difference between plot and structure, consider what tense you are using and why, and figure out how to find your writing tribe. What's more, this book is perfect for beginners or for authors who've written several books already. Regardless of where you are, you'll get something from her lessons. This is a must-read for anyone who writes or is considering it! Follow Emily on: Her website: www.emilywinslow.com Facebook: @emilywinslow.author Instagram: @emilycwinslow Email: ew@emilywinslow.com Teri M Brown, Author and Host: www.terimbrown.com  #emilywinslow #timetowrite #crimenovels #crimewriting #thrillerwriting #terimbrownauthor #authorpodcast #onlineforauthors #characterdriven #researchjunkie #awardwinningauthor #podcasthost #podcast #readerpodcast #bookpodcast #writerpodcast #bookpodcast

Hi there, Today I am so excited to be arts calling Suzan Palumbo! (suzanpalumbo.wordpress.com) About our Guest: Suzan Palumbo is a Nebula finalist, active member of the HWA, Co Administrator of the Ignyte Awards and a member of the Hugo nominated FIYAHCON team. She is also a former Associate Editor of “Shimmer” magazine. Her debut dark fantasy/horror short story collection “Skin Thief: Stories” will be published by Neon Hemlock in Fall 2023. Her novella “Countess” will be published by ECW Press in spring 2024. Her writing has been published or is forth coming in Lightspeed Magazine, Fantasy, The Deadlands, The Dark Magazine, PseudoPod, Fireside Fiction Quarterly, PodCastle, Anathema: Spec Fic from the Margins and other venues. She is officially represented by Michael Curry of the Donald Maass Literary Agency and tweets at @sillysyntax. When she isn't writing, she can be found sketching, listening to new wave or wandering her local misty forests. Skin Thief, Suzan's collection: now available for PRE-ORDER from Neon Hemlock! https://www.neonhemlock.com/books/skin-thief-suzan-palumbo Suzan on Twitter: @sillysyntax Special thanks to Dave at Neon Hemlock for making this conversation possible! Thanks for this wonderful conversation Suzan! All the best! “Write what you love, and don't be afraid to transform.” Arts Calling is produced by Jaime Alejandro (cruzfolio.com). If you like the show: leave a review, or share it with someone who's starting their creative journey! Your support truly makes a difference! Go make a dent: much love, j https://artscalling.com/welcome/

"If you don't know how to write characters that have problems and issues and you're actually not writing any human that's realistic, cause we're all at fault at some point, and you should always take that into consideration.” – Katie Shea Boutillier, Donald Maass Literary Agency Abigail K. Perry sits down with Katie Shea Boutillier to discuss her manuscript wishlist and other publishing insights, like: the importance of audio rights and how, as Rights Director, she sells them for clients, when a book works better as YA or Adult, why Katie loves imperfect characters and big hooks (with examples), and how an author can define and develop their voice. Katie especially loves coming-of-age fiction and contemporary realistic for adults and young adults. She shares several examples of books that model her tastes, all of which are linked below. About Katie: Katie Shea Boutillier has been a literary agent at the Donald Maass Literary Agency since 2011. In addition to advocating for her clients, she is the agency's Rights Director handling translation, audio and selected film/TV rights. Katie has a soft spot for coming-of-age fiction. She loves books that present big hooks, imperfect characters, and strong voices. Katie is committed to help achieve her clients' long-term career goals. She lives in the Jersey suburbs with her family. Katie was closed to queries from July 2021 to March 28, 2022—and she is now OPEN to queries! If you queried Katie during that time frame, it was deleted. Please make sure to re-query her! Katie's MSWL: Commercial Adult Fiction Young Adult Fiction Upmarket Women's Fiction Psychological Suspense Speculative Fiction Horror Special Interest In: Coming-of-age fiction with characters that have layers Contemporary Realistic Stories that make her cry at the end Modern stories with things happening today, with modern technology Big hooks, Imperfect characters, Distinct and strong voice Find us on/at: Twitter: @abigailkperry @AgentShea Instagram: @abigailkperry @ksboutillier Website: www.abigailkperry.com | http://maassagency.com/katie-shea/ Read the books discussed in this episode: RED, WHITE, AND ROYAL BLUE ROOM BEST DAY EVER I DON'T FORGIVE YOU THE ROUGHEST DRAFT WE ARE THE ANTS HORROR HOTEL HOWL ALL THE DIRTY SECRETS MONARCH RISING THE SECRETS OF CEDAR FARMS

We are so thrilled to talk with Monica Hall and her agent, Kat Kerr! We met Monica for the first time when, during one of our live events, she shared her agent news—and we had to meet her. From drafting legislation to writing a full manuscript, she's here to share everything she learned along the way. If you, personally, aren't affected by student loans, you definitely know someone who is. Monica is the hero trying to make their repayment terms a little fairer. We love this happy, fun, hopeful story. Tune in! Monica on Twitter: @Monica_M_Hall Kat on Twitter: @thekatsmews In 2009, Monica Hall decided to go back to college in order to further her nursing education. Instead of graduating with her registered nursing degree, she received an impromptu education on the ins and outs of drafting and passing legislation. Once the nursing program she was attending was closed, many unscrupulous practices were discovered by the Attorney General within the college she was attending as well as other for profit colleges throughout Kentucky. Once finding out that she wasn't the only one to have a horrible experience at a for profit college in her state, Monica rolled up her sleeves and worked tirelessly alongside lawmakers in Kentucky to find a better way to regulate the for profit college industry in the Commonwealth. Despite knowing she had $10 to her name while sitting in meetings with multi-millionaires, Monica always felt she was supposed to be there. As she made a place for herself at the table, she began to feel as though she was the voice for all people in the world like her-those without the privilege of power, platform, or money, who deserved to be heard. Monica Hall is a travel licensed practical nurse who is currently on assignment in the western part of the U.S. with her rockstar husband and their adorable fur baby, Bella. When she's not writing you can find her watching all things Golden State Warriors, binge watching Law and Order:Criminal Intent, jamming out to old-school hip-hop, or researching the next state to go sightseeing in. Kat Kerr joined Donald Maass Literary Agency in 2019. She graduated from Florida State University with a Bachelors in English in 2009 and is drawn to literary and commercial voices within the adult and YA markets, as well as adult nonfiction. Kat feels strongly about supporting programs like We Need Diverse Books and is passionate about creating space in this industry for those from historically marginalized communities. She is actively seeking to grow her client list and is particularly hungry for magical realism, literary leaning speculative and science fiction, women's fiction, YA works with a lot of heart, and narrative nonfiction with something to say.

Most speculative fiction takes place in a society that has a government of some kind. But what, exactly is a state? And how does it come to be? C.L. Polk joins us to discuss the making and breaking of nations within your fantasy worlds. From farmboy kings to scheming dukes with surprisingly benevolent control of their printing presses, from the trials and tribulations of parliaments to the somewhat horrifying implications of magical lobbyists, we hope that you'll find ideas in here to help you craft a government to your preferred level of wonkiness. Transcript for Episode 58 (with thanks to our lovely scribes!) Our Guest: C. L. Polk (they/them) is the author of the World Fantasy Award winning novel Witchmark, the first novel of the Kingston Cycle. Their newest novel, The Midnight Bargain, was a finalist in the CBC Canada Reads Competition, and was nominated for the Nebula, FIYAH Ignyte, and World Fantasy Awards. After leaving high school early, they have worked as a film extra, sold vegetables on the street, and identified exotic insect species for a vast collection of lepidoptera before settling down to write fantasy novels. Mx. Polk lives near the Bow River in the traditional territories of the Blackfoot Confederacy (Siksika, Kainai, Piikani), the Tsuut'ina, the Îyâxe Nakoda Nations, and the Métis Nation (Region 3). They keep all their stuff in a tiny apartment with too many books and a yarn stash that could last a decade. They ride a green bicycle with a basket on the front. They drink good coffee because life is too short. They spend too much time on twitter. You can subscribe to their free newsletter on TinyLetter, or subscribe to their Patreon for content writing nerds like. Mx. Polk is represented by Caitlin McDonald of the Donald Maass Literary Agency.

We get to talk to Nebula-award-nominated author of fantasy and science fiction Jose Pablo Iriarte about his writing process, flash fiction and more. Let's learn more about him.José Pablo Iriarte is a Cuban-American writer and teacher who lives in Central Florida. José’s fiction can be found in magazines such as Lightspeed, Strange Horizons, Fireside Fiction, and others, and has been featured in best-of lists compiled by Tangent Online, Featured Futures, iO9, and Quick Sip Reviews, and on the SFWA Nebula Award Recommended Reading List. Jose’s novelette, “The Substance of My Lives, the Accidents of Our Births,” was a Nebula Award Finalist and was long-listed for the James Tiptree, Jr. Literary Award. Learn more at www.labyrinthrat.com, or follow José on Twitter @labyrinthrat. stories have been published in Lightspeed Magazine, Strange Horizons, Fireside Fiction, and many other venues. His novel-length fiction is represented by Cameron McClure of the Donald Maass Literary Agency.You can find, follow  and contact him on:joe@labyrinthrat.comFB: facebook.com/labyrinthratTwitter: @labyrinthratInstagram: @josepabloiriarteInterested in Podcasting?Follow the link https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=815467  it let's Buzzsprout know we sent you, gets you a $20 Amazon gift card if you sign up for a paid plan, and helps support our show.Buzzsprout gets your show listed in every major podcast platform.You’ll get a great looking podcast website, audio players that you can drop into other websites, detailed analytics to see how people are listening, tools to promote your episodes, and more.Join over a hundred thousand podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world.Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/LegionofWritersPod )

Donald Maass founded the Donald Maass Literary Agency in New York in 1980. He is the author of Writing 21st Century Fiction and The Emotional Craft of Fiction, as well as many other books about the craft of writing. He's an author, a literary agent, past president of the Association of Authors’ Representatives, Inc., and all-around industry veteran who supports writers to hone and to embrace their craft. For more about Don and his agency, visit: http://maassagency.com.

Hey Everyone! We know there's a lot going on in the world this week, and we hope you're doing well. We're doing our best to create a kind, cozy community for you, so have support going into these winter months. Here's what's happening this month: Tuesday, November 10, we have a live queries and pages panel with agent Kiana Nguyen at the Donald Maass Literary Agency. If you haven't met her, she's delightful, and has wonderful insights into your pages. You can learn more at https://manuscriptacademy.com/kiana-nguyen-panel. We're also creating a number of events in our new member lounge, which is pretty much what happens if you take your favorite creative coffeeshop, add a bunch of talented writers from all over the world, and work together with special guests to get the most out of your writing time. https://manuscriptacademy.com/member-lounge This means small events in a cozy, no-pressure setting. Here are the member lounge events for this month: November 17 is a new experiment for us—a sort of Dr. Phil-esque event where you can send us your “What do I do now?” publishing questions and, together, we find your best submission strategy. November 19, we have a live podcast recording and Q&A with agent Larissa Melo Pienkowski. We just did one of these last month, and it felt like a living room party Q&A. It's a great way to have a real, interactive conversation and get your questions answered. And November 12, 18 and 30, you can join us for our Write Together events, where you can work alongside other writers for support and positive peer pressure, and then meet for small-group networking. And last but certainly not least, coming up on the podcast we have interviews with Serendipity Literary agent Kelly Thomas, HarperCollins editor Rebecca Raskin, and Activist, musician, playwright, and Penguin author Amyra León. As always, you can see our full calendar of events at https://manuscriptacademy.com/calendar, and learn more about our member lounge at https://manuscriptacademy.com/member-lounge. Again, take good care of yourselves.

Kiana Nguyen and I have a blast discussing our mutual love for THE LAST OF US PART II. Eventually, we get around to her role as a literary agent for Donald Maass Literary Agency as well as a park ranger. We talk about “standard” coming out stories and “girl-saves-the-world” stories and why both are better avoided. We also chat about evaluating queries and manuscripts, agent/client communication styles, quarantine for Covid 19, the future of publishing, the emotional inner lives of characters, a for-real ghost story, and so much more. Kiana Nguyen joined Donald Maass Literary Agency in 2016, where she assisted several agents, and is now building her own client list. She is seeking YA fiction across genres, particularly those with POC and queer voices. She is also interested in Adult romance and domestic suspense thrillers.

Ever wish you could carry around a writing class in your pocket? One with special agent and editor guests, a rad* theme, and way too much coffee?  Now you can. Our Write-In Workshop from last week (you can still see the full replay here, if you'd like the video too: https://manuscriptacademy.com/back-to-school-write-in) features all the ways thinking about your character in school--plus the resulting conflicts, social hierarchies, friends and crushes--can give you a deeper understanding of that person on the page.  We've left in pauses so you can follow along. Grab your favorite school supplies, maybe your earbuds or your Bluetooth speaker**, and write with 300 of your new best friends. We'll read some clips of your examples, and think you, too, will be impressed with the strength and talent of this community. Special shout-out to Kiana Nguyen, agent at Donald Maass Literary Agency, and Molly Cusick, editor at Sourcebooks, for being our surprise guests.  Hope this finds you well and enjoying everything the season has to offer.  All best, Jessica and Julie *Bet that word choice made more sense when you learned the theme, amirite? **Jessica really likes this one, because it's sand-resistant, and no, we promise we are not sponsored by VicTsing, we just like it for a more immersive podcast experience that can fall in the sink a few times when you're doing dishes and it's all good: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MYYCGKW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00MYYCGKW&pd_rd_w=kugpu&pf_rd_p=45a72588-80f7-4414-9851-786f6c16d42b&pd_rd_wg=GO2mc&pf_rd_r=04MTQCD63BHTFFT1QBQ3&pd_rd_r=8c2763d0-8380-48d9-a8e7-7aca86dbde0c&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFJTlhEQ1IxRllKNEwmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzNzc3MDMxSDY4U0VKMFpGMjVJJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODQ5MTczSDRVM0pTWkJMODg1JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

One of our newest faculty members, agent Caitlin McDonald, was kind enough to give us a guided tour of her query inbox. Like #TenQueries on Twitter, this is an honest look at what agents actually receive, what works, what doesn't, and why. Caitlin McDonald is an agent at Donald Maass Literary Agency, where she represents adult and young adult fantasy and science fiction as well as select nonfiction titles. She has worked with numerous award-winning and bestselling authors, created high-profile nonfiction proposals, and been a contracts manager. Caitlin seeks to elevate diverse voices and is always looking for new ways to help aspiring authors. You can meet with Caitlin and book a critique with her here: https://manuscriptacademy.com/caitlin-mcdonald

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and we’re on part two of Agents Week!  For this episode we got to talk to three agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  Tyler Hayes, Sam Hawke, and Caitlin Starling were all kind enough to tell us their stories, share their experiences, and even offer some insight and wisdom.  You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and well, never mind about the football-related stress relief suggestions, Daniel Jones it is. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! Tyler Hayes- 00:01:28 - 00:15:34   Represented by Lisa Abellera of Kimberley Cameron & Associates http://www.kimberleycameron.com/lisa-abellera.php   https://tyler-hayes.com/ https://twitter.com/the_real_tyler   The Imaginary Corpse https://www.angryrobotbooks.com/shop/fantasy/the-imaginary-corpse/     ====   Sam Hawke- 00:15:35 - 00:25:42   Represented by Julie Crisp of Julie Crisp Literary Agency http://www.juliecrisp.co.uk/   https://samhawkewrites.com/ https://twitter.com/samhawkewrites   City of Lies: https://samhawkewrites.com/books/buy-sams-books/   ===     Caitlin Starling- 00:25:43 - 00:40:36   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.caitlinstarling.com/ https://twitter.com/see_starling   The Luminous Dead https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062846907/the-luminous-dead/   Rekka:00:01   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I am Rekka and I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:10   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:14   So today is the first of our two episodes where we talk to authors about their experience with their agents, getting their agent and working with them. Kaelyn:00:23   Yeah. And our previous episode we talked to Caitlin McDonald who is an agent, but we wanted to talk to some authors that have agents because hearing an agent is one thing. Hearing an author who has done this is another. Rekka:00:37   So we got a bunch of them. Kaelyn:00:39   Yeah. And um, you're, you'll hear in this, uh, this episode, these three authors all kind of have different paths to this. There really isn't like the standard story of how you got there. Um, we talked to Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes and Caitlin Starling. Rekka:00:54   Cause they're individual interviews, this episode goes a tiny bit long. Kaelyn:00:57   A bit long. Rekka:00:57   So we'll, we'll make room for the other episodes you've gotta listen to this week and we hope that this week on agents is serving you well and getting you excited. Kaelyn:01:07   So thanks everyone. Enjoy the episode. Speaker 2:       01:13   [music] Tyler:   01:28   My name is Tyler Hayes. Uh, I've been, I've been writing for about 25 years and writing for money for 16 of that. Um, and my, my debut novel, the Imaginary Corpse is coming out from Angry Robot on September 10th. So I'm repped by Lisa Avalara at Kimberly Cameron and Associates. They're up here in northern California near me. So my story is a little bit backwards from typical, um, in that I actually had the offer on the book before I had an agent. Um, I had been following the kind of normal path of query, partial request, full request, reject, reject, reject, reject. Um, so I was piling up rejections, uh, on this book and they were all those like, you're almost there. Types of rejections. Like it was a lot of, I loved this, but I don't know where I'd put it. And so I don't want to offer to represent it when I'm not confident to where I'd place it. Kaelyn:02:27   Okay. As far as rejections go better than others. Tyler:   02:32   Yes, indeed. And I got of course a few, I formed out a few places, but the, the ones that were personalized, we're all like, God, I wish I knew where to put this, but I'm sorry. Kaelyn:02:42   Yeah. Tyler:   02:43   Um, so midway through that, uh, I got the notice for through my writing community, um, that Angry Robot books was doing their open door period, which they do once a year. Um, and I thought, well, worst case I'll be exactly where I am now if they say no, so I'll go ahead and send it and then I'll keep doing what I'm doing. And I just sent it and like made a note, you know, that it had happened and kind of set the, the drop dead date on it just so I knew when to not bother talking to them if something happened. And uh, just kept going and uh, I kept piling up the rejections. I got more and more discouraged. I had a real heart to heart with some of my critique partners and we actually agreed we were going to temporarily trunk the Imaginary Corpse. Um, not because it was bad, but because we're like, probably the problem. Kaelyn:03:33   Wait, Tyler, trunk? You missed a perfectly good myster pun there. Bury! Come on. Tyler:   03:41   Right. You know, we'll see. This is why I take multiple drafts. Um, so, um, so we're talking about, I'm talking about, uh, just burying this thing out in the desert and pulling it out later, basically saying it's good, but probably this will be a better second or third book. This will be an easier book to sell when you have a name to market it on. And um, and I said, you know, I think you've got a point. As much as I love this book, it's probably time to say goodbye. I'll let this set of queries kind of peter out and if none of them end in an offer, uh, I'll say goodbye and we'll move onto the next thing. And literally I made that decision and then came into my office job the next morning and I had an email waiting for me from Angry Robot books saying, we love this and we want to publish it next year. Uh, this was in summer 2018 after I finished biting down on my hand, so I didn't scream in the middle of my office. I, uh, you know, I finished screaming internally, told all the people who you typically tell, oh my God, I've got an offer. And they were, who reminded me do not pass go, get an agent. So I followed up with via three agents at the time, had my query and had not said anything. Tyler:   04:53   Um, oh, that's not true. One hit it asked for a partial. Okay. Um, so I emailed those three, uh, and also one who also told me like, she took like a full request to decide I can't sell this. So I emailed her too, cause why not? And basically I got to, I've got two people who said, no. Uh, I still don't think, I don't feel strongly enough about the project to feel good taking you on. Um, and then I got to, who actually did the infamous agent call? Uh, one of them was Lisa. Um, and, uh, after a, some thought, you know, I did the normal thing. I took the calls, told them both give me a few days. Um, and I went with Lisa basically because of her enthusiasm, um, was a lot of it. Uh, I got on the phone with her and she was enthusiastic. Tyler:   05:39   She was warm and she was kind, and she also took very seriously that I wanted to be a full time writer. Um, and she, and, but she also made sure I knew what kind of work goes into that. She was not like, Oh yeah, we can absolutely get you there. She said, well, okay, we can try, but here's the path that you are going on at that point. Here's when I think it makes sense for you to tell your day job: See Ya. Um, and so that also really won me over. I was like, oh good. She takes me seriously. But she's not, uh, you know, she's not trying to sugar coat it either. She's just saying like, we'll, we'll work to that, but we will work to get there. So, um, so yeah, so that's, that's my story. She gave me an offer, I accepted the offer and we wound up negotiating with angry robot. And here we are. Kaelyn:06:29   That's, I mean, that's fantastic. That, you know, could not have gone more smoothly aside from, you know, all of the other rejections previous to that. Tyler:   06:36   Yeah, absolutely. There, there were a few crying jags, but you know, that's, that's the business. Kaelyn:06:41   It's a rite of passage, you know, if - Tyler:   06:42   Right. Kaelyn:06:43   Um, so because you had that really interesting, you know, sort of path to this, I think people listening to this might hear that and say, why do I then need to, I want to in who I'm going to have to give another percentage of my money to? So obviously you're very excited to have your agent and happy with them. So why were they worth it? That seems like a no brainer. Tyler:   07:07   Okay. So they were worth it because I was not confident in my own negotiation power. Um, I knew that I was not coming from a place of strength in negotiating with a publisher. Um, and I knew I wasn't coming from a place of experience. Um, whereas Lisa, uh, when she spoke to me was immediately like, you know, she, uh, she immediately went, ah, you know, I know what, uh, probably the boiler plate contract looks like, and I know that I can get you something a little bit better in negotiations. I mean, Kaelyn:07:38   Which you'd like to hear. Tyler:   07:40   Yeah, absolutely. Um, and she was not um, just to be clear, I can say of my publisher here that she was not critical Angry Robot. She was just like, I know that this is an opening offer and I can, you know, if I can get you a little bit more in a negotiation, um, and just the relief of no, somebody who knows what they're doing with the business side, we'll be going to bat for that for my rights, for my advance rather than me with my, you know, I know a little something about something, but I'm not an a, I'm not a professional negotiator, you know, rather than me just going, well, I'd like a little bit more please. Kaelyn:08:19   Yeah. Maybe extra money? Yeah, no, it's okay. You know what? I don't need the money. You guys should have it. Yeah. I think that's a good point that you brought up though that um, there's a lot of people don't consider with the agent and everything they're thinking is, you know, advanced royalties, money. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into these, like rights is a huge part of it. What are the agents know these things that, like you said, shoot, I know the boiler plate here. I know what they're going to send you already because I'm sure she's dealt with them. Tyler:   08:47   Yeah. That was the other thing was that I found really helpful was that she was able to also, uh, reassure me about, she was able to explain my contract to me in language that I understood because of course it's written in legal-ese, which exists for a reason, but is hard for a lay person to interpret. And she was able to get on the phone with me and say, so this clause means this, that clause means that. Kaelyn:09:10   Yup. Tyler:   09:10   I understand the wording here is alarming. But actually what they're saying is, um, and, and she was also able to tell me what wasn't, wasn't unusual, you know, she was able to say like, so this clause here, literally every publisher will put this clause in the contract. This clause here is news to me, but possibly it's because they're British, not American. Let me look into that. Kaelyn:09:35   Yeah. Tyler:   09:35   And that was the other thing is she was like, I'll, I'll check with the other people I know who've worked with Angry Robot or other British publishers, make sure that I'm not raising an eyebrow at something that just has to do with UK copyright law, et Cetera. Kaelyn:09:47   Yeah. I, I, well see, it's funny because I'm very involved with the contracts at Parvus. Tyler:   09:51   Right. Kaelyn:09:52   And I'm even sometimes having to go like, wait a second. Okay. Right. Yes. That thing, I remember that now. So yeah, having someone who can walk in and that is so tremendously helpful and important so that you know what you're signing. Tyler:   10:04   Yes. Kaelyn:10:05   So you signed the agreement and then, you know, what came next? Tyler:   10:10   Of course we had the negotiation until we signed. Uh, and then it's been follow up on the negotiation. Um, you know, checking in about stuff like publicity, um, you know, like making sure that I'm aware of what expected next steps are, which Angry Robot, of course, it also has a publicity manager. A shout out to Jenna who is amazing. Um, but, uh, you know, but both of them, both her and Lisa are working with me to say, okay, these are the things we're going to expect you to do. This is the sort of stuff we recommend in Lisa states, ss going: So my authors at a similar level to you, I've had a lot of success doing this and that, so let's try to make sure that's on the schedule. Um, and then kind of the other stuff has been follow up, uh, getting ready for the next project and kind of making sure we're both on the same page about what we're doing next and where we want to go up is of course the answer. Kaelyn:11:03   Yeah. What we're kind of finishing with everyone it advice that you have or something that surprised you about this process. Tyler:   11:11   As far as what surprised me, I think I was, this is going to sound cynical at first, so give me a minute to explain it. I was surprised by how little really matters in a query packet, by which I mean, you know, I, I've mentored several people I've worked with folks. I'm kind of coming up behind me trying to get their debut together and I thought the same things they did. I thought I should in my bio list, everything that was even vaguely tangentially related to writing. Um, I that I should, you know, mention any scholarship I got that might apply to creative writing that I should talk about how much people loved my short stories in high school, that sort of thing. Um, when really what they want in a query is they want a query letter that pops in whatever way they want you to follow their darn directions and they want to see a good book. Kaelyn:12:08   And if you've got something else that's great, but it's gravy. As, as for advice, I guess my biggest advice would be for finding an agent. Um, do your research. Like really look for someone who seems like a good fit. Who, uh, I can, I can highly recommend Query Tracker. I highly recommend manuscriptwishlist.com. Tyler:   12:28   That's a great website. Kaelyn:12:30   Yes. I, uh, I also recommend looking at, uh, like writers conferences and pitch parties and stuff that are happening to find out who's going, not necessarily to go yourself though if you, if that's your bag, fantastic. But I'm not really into the like speed pitching type thing. Um, but that was actually how I found Lisa was I found out she was doing a writer's conference in near me and I went, oh, she's out there. She's actively growing her client list. You know, she is seeking out new people to represent. Tyler:   13:00   This is the type of agent I want to talk to as opposed to just cold emailing agents and going, I think you're looking for someone new. You're not listed as closed. So, um, but also, uh, my biggest thing once you're talking to them, but once you are actually corresponding with agents, whether it's the legendary agent call or just emails, um, look for someone who is a good fit, who feels right to you. And I know that sounds very vague and kind of crystal vibration-y, um, but seriously, look for someone who you talk to and you feel this is a good fit. This is a personality fit because they are your business partner. When it comes down to it. Kaelyn:13:41   You said something very telling when you were talking about why you decided to go with Lisa was that she was excited and enthusiastic. Tyler:   13:49   Yes. Kaelyn:13:50   Working ... do this is, this is a business partner. This is someone that is going to help you be the most successful that you possibly can. And if they're not excited, that's not gonna, probably not going to work out great in the long run. Tyler:   14:05   Yeah, I I knew so related story, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but down the road from the book was at the book was, was finally edited. It was going to proofs. I didn't, they have to touch it anymore. And so Lisa and I had to call about, okay, what's next? And I told her my idea for my next book that I was in the process of writing at the time. And she actually gaspedout loud on the phone. She was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And I was like, see, now I know for sure. I've done the right thing. Kaelyn:14:34   What a gratifying feeling that must have been. Tyler:   14:34   That's what you want. You want that agent - Exactly right. I was like, oh my gosh, you know. Oh good. I really did pick the right person. Like I hadn't, no doubt, but it was that beautiful reaction of like no, good! This, this is a partnership where I know she wants to sell this work because she wants to read it. So the Imaginary Corpse is a weird fantasy about a plush dinosaur and ex-imaginary friend investigating the first serial killer of the imagination. Uh, it is out from Angry Robot books. Uh, you can pick it up from your friendly local bookstore or directly from Angry Robot's website or from the usual online book vendors. Kaelyn:15:07   Okay. Awesome. So yeah, check that out. How can people find you online? Tyler:   15:10   The easiest places to find me are Twitter at, @the_real_Tyler,underscores, between the words. So the underscore real underscore Tyler. Um, or an Instagram @TylerHayesbooks. All one word also on my website, Tyler-Hayes.com. Kaelyn:15:25   Congratulations on the book, I know we're recording in the future, so I will wish you good luck with the book launch and uh, so that sounds fantastic. Tyler:   15:32   Thank you. Rekka:15:34   [sound effect] Sam:    15:35   I'm Sam Book. I'm going to scifi and fantasy writer. My first book City of Lies, came out last year in July and I'm currently working on the sequel. Rekka:15:43   The City of Lies, which I happened to have read is a, uh, an award winning book. I notice you're, you're a little too humble to say, so I'll say it for you. Quadrupl now? Was it four awards now for that one? Sam:    15:56   It has won a few. Yeah. Rekka:15:58   Fantastic. Well, congratulations. So could you tell us who your agent is and how you chose them? Sam:    16:05   Oh, well my agent is Julie Crisp, in London. Um, applied to a whole bunch of agents when I was query and um, ended up having conversations with um, a few different agents in the UK and in the US um, all of whom were really lovely. And, um, all of whom were enthusiastic about my work and um, I got along really well with all of them on the call. I think ultimately I chose Julie, uh, because of her editing background, uh, in particular because I was a very isolated writer. And I really didn't, um, we hadn't really worked with anyone who'd ever edited me before. I've, well I can probably use it. Um, so Julie was the, um, acquisitions editor at UK Tor before she switched to agenting. So she has a really strong editing background. Um, and she has some really strong ideas for changes to the book. Um, so ultimately that was, that was probably the key. Rekka:16:58   Okay, cool. So you, you kind of knew what you wanted out of an agent in addition to your representation and someone who would submit to publishers that might be out of reach. Otherwise, you also like had a strong sense that you needed somebody who was going to be involved in the editorial process with you before that even happened. Sam:    17:17   Yeah, I think that's, that's right. Because as I said, I really hadn't worked that much on my writing with anybody. I'd been very solitary. Rekka:17:25   What was the experience, I assume you, um, made a revision or two on City of Lies before it went out to some. Sam:    17:33   Yeah, so we actually did some pretty enormous revisions on it um, in that time. So we probably took out from when I signed to when we actually went out on sub, it was probably eight or nine months. Rekka:17:45   Okay. New Speaker:  17:45   Cause I do kind of a massive structural change in the where Julie had suggested that I balance the, the two point of view characters differently. So I essentially had to kind of pull the book completely apart, work out what scenes needed to be in what perspective and kind of rebalance, rebalance it and put it all back together again. Which um, is a very, um, look, it was a difficult - Rekka:18:13   Yes. New Speaker:  18:13   process, bit totally worth it in the end. It definitely made it a better book. Rekka:18:17   Um, POV shifts and like tiny adjustments to POVs can make such a rippling effect on a revision pass. New Speaker:  18:25   Oh my God, so much you think it wouldn't be that hard to switch from one to the other, you know singles? It was, it was so hard and so different because the two characters, even though they're quite similar in terms of, um, they'll rise in the same way and they have a kind of similar perspective, um, they still, they still react to situations differently and they differently notice things, different things about a scenario. So, um, changing from one to the other, even it's just not defined. Rekka:18:51   It was not a find and replace of the name. Yeah, New Speaker:  18:52   Not the same thing. Yeah. Rekka:18:54   Yeah. Awesome. Well, okay, so what other kinds of interactions do you have with Julie? Um, in terms of, um, like copy editing or line editing, um, and then the submissions process and, um, what, what do you rely on her for in your author career? New Speaker:  19:14   Well, she kind of, um, pulls me back from the edge when I'm being in giant baby. Rekka:19:19   So emotional support. New Speaker:  19:21   Emotional support, you know that, um, there's a Gif of a little boy holding onto a rope and wailing and crying in what looks like fast running water. And then his guardian comes over and standing up and he's actually sort of standing at thigh high water and it's not dangerous at all. Rekka:19:38   Right. New Speaker:  19:39   That's how I feel about me, me, me sort of panicky about things and her talking me down. Um, yeah. So no, I use it very much. It's, I'm a person who's kind of always my advocate and on my team and helping me, um, get through this sometimes quite challenging business so that in addition to the support she gives me in terms of editing and she still works really, she worked really extensively on the book. Even after we'd signed with a publisher and know a lot of agents would kind of step back at the point of which they've sold the book and say, you know, that's the publisher's job now. I've kind of done my part and Julie very much doesn't do that. Rekka:20:15   And she was involved all the way through the copy editing stage and, and um, basically just anything that I need, she always makes herself available. Um, which has just been really, really invaluable to me. New Speaker:  20:29   Yeah. To know that there's always somebody who's got your back and will reinforce your decisions and stuff like that. Rekka:20:35   Exactly. New Speaker:  20:36   Awesome. Um, so how often do you check in with her? Is this like a weekly or a biweekly or monthly? Rekka:20:45   Uh, it, it depends what's going on. So when there's a lot of stuff going on, we could talk every couple of days when it's just sort of like right now where I'm just drafting a new material. They may, it might be less frequent, but yeah, if you've, when you're on submission, I was checking in quite regularly and when there's a lot of things happening anywhere around the kind of releases, the first book last year was a very busy time and I was harassing her constantly. She's very good about it. Rekka:21:13   And when you were putting the book out in submission, had you worked on the pitches for the publishers together or did you, uh, you know, throw up your hands after you queried agents and say, okay, no, you can do it please. Sam:    21:27   She handled that, that um but entirely. Um, I mean, I think to some extent she used some material that I developed in terms of pitching agents. Um, she, she kind of used some of that in her pitches to publishes, I think. But one of the good things about having an agent, um, is they're kind of preexisting relationships with, with people in the industry and they know what particular editors are looking for and they're kind of in a much better place than I am to know what we'll work on a particular person. So I left that entirely in her. Rekka:22:00   Yeah, I can, I can understand, um, being relieved that you don't have to be part of that process. Um, I'm a micromanager, so I don't know, Sam:    22:10   I'm bad at talking about, about, about what my book is about. Yeah. Rekka:22:12   Yeah. I think every author is guilty of that for sure. So if you were talking to a new author or an unrepresented author who was looking for an agent, what tips would you give them about, um, seeking someone to represent them? Sam:    22:27   I will, I would say there's so much information available now about how to do a good job of pitching and approaching agents, um, that there's really, as long as you're well prepared, there's really no excuse for making dumb mistakes that are gonna get you eliminated before you even get a chance. So take your time and do your research, um, approach the, the, the query letter or whatever you're using to, to approach the person as a business proposal. So you're looking to, to strike up a business relationship with somebody. So you want to sound like a person that they want to do business with. So, you know, don't be a dick. Rekka:23:04   Fair enough. I mean, there it is. Okay. Awesome. So, no, I think that's a great tip. It's like there is, like you said, so much guidance out there, there are tons of blog posts about how to write a query letter. There are, uh, editors and agents who post query letters they've received, you know, that have been scrubbed for identity, but they kind of pick them apart and say like, here's why this isn't working or here's why this is a good example. And then there are plenty of people, um, you know, within anyone's, uh, general, uh, community that could offer advice or can even, you know, um, send people in the direction of a, of an agent that they might be interested in. Yeah. Sam:    23:45   Yeah, I think that's right. The information is there. Um, so don't, you know, don't rush it. But on the other hand you can also over research forever. I probably [laughs] I'm an over preparer. Rekka:23:56   Oh yeah. Sam:    23:56   You don't need like the 11 spreadsheets in one. All the colors probably. Rekka:23:59   Oh, come on. New Speaker:  24:00   I had that. Unless you really love spreadsheets like I do that. Sam:    24:04   Yeah. New Speaker:  24:04   In which case it's a delight. Rekka:24:06   Well, it, they can be calming, right? Like they can be reassuring. Like, look, I have facts. There are cells. Um, why don't you, uh, plug City of Lies again, the award winning City of Lies. Um, so our, our listeners know, um, like basically give us your elevator pitch. Sam:    24:21   Uh, City of Lies is uh basically a closed room murder mystery set, you know, a besieged city. So it's about a couple of siblings whose family are poisoned tasters for their, the ruling family of the city. Um, there at the beginning of the book, their uncle, uh, the current poison taster and the chancellor of the city are both killed by an unknown poison. And then the city falls under the sage, seemingly from its own people and our main characters, the brother and sister have to try to figure out who, who killed their uncle and the chancellor, um, prevent that person from doing the same to the new chancellor and figure out what's happening with the rebellion, um, before that whole city falls, I guess. Rekka:25:05   Yeah. You know, it's funny you say it's a closed roommurder mystery and you're totally right. Even though it's like in an open world city. Um, they are definitely, um, for most of the book confined to a small area and also by their, um, like their class standing. They're expected to stay in certain places. So that's a really interesting way of putting that. New Speaker:  25:22   Yeah, I picked fantasy it's my, my jam, but my other great love is closed door mystery. So this is like my collage to the, the two genres that I love the best. Rekka:25:34   I really appreciate your time and um, thank you so much for coming on and I know everyone's going to go check out that book because they should. Sam:    25:40   No worries. Thanks for having me. Speaker 6:       25:42   [sound effect] Caitlin:25:44   My name is Caitlin Starling. I'm the author of the Luminous Dead, which came out, um, this past April from Harper Voyager. And I also worked as the narrative designer on this strange little show in New York last fall called A Human. Kaelyn:25:57   Interesting. I didn't know that actually. That's very cool. Caitlin:26:00   Yeah, I got to design body parts for money. It was very exciting. Kaelyn:26:03   That is very cool. Caitlin:26:05   So I am repped by Caitlin McDonald, who is over at the Donald Maass Literary Agency. Kaelyn:26:10   Caitlin McDonald is the agent that we interviewed for the previous, uh, yes, the first episode that came out this week. Caitlin:26:16   I may have thrown her. I may have thrown for your way. There's a bunch of Kaitlin's in my emails at all times. It gets very exciting on calls. We actually have to refer to each other as Agent Caitlin and Author Caitlin. So before anything happens, everyone else knows which one that's talking in, which one is referring. Kaelyn:26:31   So, um, that's been really fun. But, um, so I signed with her back in April of 2017 and I had been querying at that point for a little bit over a year and Caitlin McDonald was actually the first agent I ever queried. Um, but it took awhile to get to a full request and then also for her to get to the manuscript after that. So she also ended up being the first one to offer even though I in the meantime queried about 40 other agents. Um, which of course kicked off the following up with everybody else. I ended up getting one other offer, um, and a couple of their near, near misses, but it was between two agents and Caitlin Macdonald was newer and um, had fewer sales under her belt, but we clicked more on several levels, including for me what's really important is, um, being extremely detail oriented and comfortable talking about logistics and practicalities like contracts. Caitlin:27:31   Um, Caitlin McDonald, I'm sure she told you, uh, used to work in contracts. Kaelyn:27:36   Yes. Caitlin:27:37   Pretty much exclusively for a while. So, and I used to work for a lawyer, so it was really nice to basically say, what's your termination clause like? And for her to just send over the boilerplate agency agreement. And we were able to just talk about contracts. Now, I know that's not for everybody because a lot of people see contracts and start screaming internally. Um, but for me, that was a really big determining factor of why I felt so comfortable with going forward. Kaelyn:28:00   Well, and that's actually very interesting to hear because I'm, one of the questions we got or things people ask is, do I just take the first offer that I get? And I've heard other people say, well, you might only get one offer. You had two and you actually had to make a choice. Caitlin:28:15   I did. Yes. Kaelyn:28:15   So that's very interesting to hear - Caitlin:28:17   Which is very difficult. Kaelyn:28:18   Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a big deal in, it's a commitment. It's a potentially very long relationship. So - Caitlin:28:25   Yeah, it was, it was a really hard decision. Um, the other agent who offered, like I alluded to, you had a lot, a lot more years behind her and a lot more sales behind her. Um, and in some ways I clicked with her personally right off the bat faster than I did with Caitlin McDonald. But after talking, having several conversations with both and, um, in particular, Caitlin McDonald's boss, Donna Moss actually was willing to talk to me about what sort of support she had behind her as a new agent. Um, because it's really important for new agents to have, you know, you'd be able to use the connections that their agency has to be able to go to other agents to say, okay, have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? Um, and that made me confident that even though she was newer at the time, that she had the clout behind her to basically put her on an even footing with the other agent and then I could focus on other details. Caitlin:29:15   Um, and then also, I mean, what, I didn't really think about it at the time, but what does become really clear to me that I'm really, um, was really a good move on my part: Caitlin McDonald is queer. I'm queer, I write queer fiction. It's really nice having her in my corner and fully understanding where I'm coming from as opposed to, um, you know, being supportive but not having that same lived experience when I like want to self edit or pull back or go, oh no, is is the reason why we got a rejection because it's too gay. She'll be like, I will, I will fight for you. I will fight anybody who says it's, and it's just really nice to have that. Um, you know, and I hadn't really anticipated needing that, but it's become one of the most, you know, not one of the most, because obviously like business negotiation things are kind of really important because at least I'm getting paid, but it's really important. It's really important on an emotional and a creative level to know that I have that support.   Kaelyn:30:11   You know, I think we like to go like, oh well the personal stuff really shouldn't matter. But like it does sometimes and if it's just like, you know, one more thing that makes you more comfortable working with someone that's really important. Caitlin:30:24   Yeah. Especially if you write fiction that is very emotionally based. Kaelyn:30:28   Yes. Caitlin:30:29   Your personal life is gonna be very important to your art. So then you need someone who also understands your personal life so they can see what you're trying to do with your art. Kaelyn:30:36   Yeah. It sounds like you guys have like a fantastic relationship. So what are your, what are your interactions like what do you, how often do you talk and how often do you get in touch for like, I have this problem or I'm worried about this because a lot of authors and agency, agents, excuse me, have different styles of communication. So do you find you're more comfortable being in constant touch or do you just go by what works best for both of you? Caitlin:31:04   I probably bother her more than I technically need to. We actually, we have, um, the way we have the arrangement we've come to is that if I'm asking a question that is substantial that we may need to be able to find the answer to later, it goes by email because email is searchable and sortable. But we also text and that's usually for really quick questions. Um, or just touching basis friends or, you know, we're, I, I wouldn't say that we're friend, friend friends, but we are friendly enough that we check in on each other about personal stuff as well as business stuff. Um, and we try and keep the two streams separate. Um, and like on Instagram, I don't ask her business questions. I just get very excited about the cool pictures that she posts. And so we try and keep some, some pretty formal divisions. Caitlin:31:54   Like I don't want to be, um, impinging on her very scarce personal time if I don't have to. Um, but I also am a bit of an anxious person and so sometimes I will spiral out. I'll need to be like, can you please talk me off the ledge? Because I'm clearly having a problem and I know that it's stupid, but I can't get out of it on my own. And she is very good about stepping in and being like, it's fine and this is why it's fine and it's going to be OK. Um, and, and, and so there's parts where even over two years in, we're still learning. I'm definitely still learning about what is good to bring to her versus what I should probably take care of on my own. And there's times where it goes the other way where I decided that, oh, this is something that I shouldn't bother her with. And it turns out that it's something that she really would have liked to know about two or three weeks ago by the time she ends up finding out. Kaelyn:32:48   Um, I always wonder with agents, and you know, I, I edit books for Parvus as well and um, a lot of our authors don't have agents, so I'm kind of like their point person on a lot of things and it's like there should be a manual that's like, okay, besides all of this, there's gonna be a lot of emotional support involved and - Caitlin:33:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:07   How you feel about people texting you, having panic attacks over things that are not a big deal. Can you manage that? Caitlin:33:15   Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I've, I've apologized to her on many occasions and usually what she does, what she tells me is basically this is part of the job. Like this is a thing that happens. It's a very, it's a very stressful business and there's a lot that's out of your direct control and a lot of it's outside of what you can even see going on at any given time. And so it's really easy to tell yourself stories that are completely wrong and not realize that they're wrong because you can't fact check them. Kaelyn:33:43   Well, I always tell, you know, if I have authors or someone getting in touch with me and they're worried about something and they go, oh, sorry, this is so silly. It's like, no, if you're worked up about it and you're concerned, it's not silly. So we'll figure it out. Caitlin:33:56   I mean, best case scenario is there is a simple answer and you're like, oh, and now it's resolved and now you don't feel that way anymore. Kaelyn:34:02   I feel better Caitlin:34:02   Right. And you feel silly at that point. But also at the same time, look, it was an easy problem to resolve and it's not actually something you need to continue being afraid of. So that's great. Yeah. Kaelyn:34:10   So, um, we're asking everyone, what tips do you have or suggestions or misconceptions about looking for an agent in getting an agent? What do you wish people knew? Caitlin:34:19   This is, it's a big question. Um, but a couple of things that come to mind. The first is to be really thoughtful about who you're querying about if you'd actually want to work with them. Um, and it's because it obviously you feel when you're querying and it's a very real feeling that you are putting everything on the line. And if this doesn't work out, you're setback another year or another two years, whatever else. So it's very scary and it's very like there's, there's a scarcity of options. So you want to maximize the potential for someone saying yes, but at the same time, you really do want someone who wants to represent your work in the way you want it to be represented. Um, and so for instance, when I was querying the Luminous Dead, uh, I had actually reworked it at one point in its revisions as YA because a very good friend of mine said that the themes are there. Caitlin:35:15   Even though I wrote it, I had written it as an adult novel originally and it ended up being published as an adult novel. There was a period where she was like, you know, the themes are there, you could make it, YA has more opportunities for sales, there are more editors and there's more money involved. So consider it. And as a friend who, who writes both YA and adult, so I worked, reworked it as YA and I was querying it as YA, but I didn't really want it to be YA. I just thought I should do that as a business move. And it turns out I got a lot of rejections and probably because I was casting it as YA, because I think that comes through the, you know, if you're, if you're trying to sell a book as something that it's not or that you don't want it to be, you're going to run into some problems. Caitlin:35:55   Um, I was very lucky that when Caitlin and I were originally talking, I said, so how would you feel if we made it an adult and terrified that she would say no because she had, she had taken me on as a YA author and she was like, Oh yeah, it could work either way. What do you want to do here? Or here are the actual considerations on both ends. But in the end it's what you want the piece to be, which was great. Um, but I think I wasted a lot of time and energy querying YA agents who pr- who are fantastic agents, but who would have ever been a good fit for my work in the end. And then I got rejections that were upsetting that I didn't need to get. So definitely like really cultivating that list, even though it makes it feel like you're, you're giving up options and chances is a really great place, is a really good skill to learn? Caitlin:36:43   And it won't be easy and it will be comfortable, but it's, it's worth it. And the other thing that comes to mind is actually more about the query letter itself and a lot of people treat it as just a hurdle that you have to do in order to get past this phase. Kaelyn:36:56   We talk about the same thing where it's like everyone thinks about it as, oh, I just have to, it's just something I've got to do. Caitlin:37:04   It's busy work. It's like it's like a homework assignment, but it turns out you're going to use it, that skill a lot. Kaelyn:37:09   Yes. Caitlin:37:09   That skill set is going to be very important for writing your base pitches. I have found that actually if I write a fake query letter at about the halfway point of a first draft, I can usually find the problems in the first draft by trying to articulate it as a query letter. So I use it as a diagnostic tool almost - Kaelyn:37:24   And that's fantastic. Caitlin:37:25   - and it's a really tricky skill to learn. It's, it will not come naturally, especially if you're writing the query letter after you've done like five rounds of revisions and you know your book forwards and back because you're gonna want to show all the work that you did. But if you can learn how to distill it down like that, it ends up becoming a skill. Like writing a good query letter isn't just to get an agent's attention so they'll read the full. That is part of what it does, but it also teaches them that you can do some of the preliminary work for pitching the book to editors, which makes their lives a little bit easier. And it also proves to you, I'll come with me with a good pitch. Yes, it proves that you know how at least a little bit of how to market your own work, which is always great because you're going to be in situations where you're talking to people you know, maybe face to face where your agent is not there. Caitlin:38:10   For the record, Luminous Dead, so the back cover copy is not my query that got my agent, but it is the query that I wrote for funsies. After we'd done some major revisions and I went, Huh, I wonder if I could write a better query letter now I wrote it, we got the back cover copy from the editor, which was based off of my original query letter, which then became part of my agent's pitch, which became part of the back cover copy. And I went, you know, we can do better. Hey I have this thing right here for you. And now the back cover copy, it's not 100% that obviously because I am not a marketing person and there are certain things that I missed or that I put in the didn't matter. But it is substantially influenced by that. So you know, if you've ever read this, and I'm sure there are lots of publishers who really don't care what the author wants to put on the back cover, but if you've ever like read a back cover copy and gone, hmm, that's not how I would've written it. Guess what? You can learn that skill. Caitlin:39:01   And it will help you in getting an agent in fixing your own work at times and in working with your editor. Kaelyn:39:08   Well thanks so much for talking to us. Tell people where they can find you. Caitlin:39:12   Yeah, so um, I am mainly on Twitter @see_starling. It's a pun, it's a very silly pun. And um, my website is CaitlinStarling.com that has filings that has a couple of sneak peeks of things that I am working on that I will hopefully one day find a home for. It also has those pictures from the body parts design project over in New York. Kaelyn:39:34   Yeah, that's very cool. All right, well thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us. Caitlin:39:39   Absolutely. Rekka:39:40   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and oh boy did we really run with it this time!  This week we are bringing you not one, not two, but three episodes and they’re all about those mysterious creatures known Literary Agents.  Who are they?  What do they do?  How do you summon one?  For this episode, we sat down with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald to discuss all this and more.  We loved talking with Caitlin and hope that our discussion might remove a bit of the fear and mystery from proccess of querying agents.  Caitlin is with the Donald Maass Literary Agency and you can (and should!) check her out her and her work at: Website: http://maassagency.com/caitlin-mcdonald/ Twitter: @literallycait - https://twitter.com/literallycait/status/1154917792619139073 Tumbler: https://literallycait.tumblr.com/   And be sure to check out new and upcoming releases from some of her clients!   The Resurrectionist of Caligo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KDWLM3P The Library of the Unwritten: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/ In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any stress relief suggestions for Kaelyn while she deals with the Giants’ will-they-won’t-they Eli Manning and Daniel Jones situation. Seriously guys, she can’t do a whole season of this. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (K): Hey everyone, welcome, another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (R): And I'm Rekka and I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore. K: So Week Three, Submissions September. And this week's a doozy. R: We've got a lot of episodes for you this week. K: Yeah, so, what we ended up doing instead of just one episode about agents, we.. you're actually getting three this week. The first one is going to be an interview with an actual literary agent. Caitlin McDonald took some time to talk to us, she was lovely, we had such a great conversation and that's what you're going to be listening to today. Then, we have two more episodes that we're going to be putting out Wednesday and Thursday. R: Yeah, we're just going back to back with this. K: And we talked to six different authors about their process getting an agent... R: They're experience working with them. K: Yeah, cause I think there's... what we're learning, talking to people, there's a lot of mystery around this. R: Yeah. Mmm-hmm. K: Everyone is very uncertain about what agents do, and how you get one. R: And how you're allowed to use them. K: Yes. Yeah, so we had a really great time talking to Caitlin who gave us some really interesting insight and... Yeah, Week Three: Agents. We… Three episodes, because it turns out there's a lot to say about that. R: You know, this is a big part of it for a lot of people. K: Yeah, it's the check mark. It's a huge check mark for a lot of people in this process is: “Get agent." So take a listen, we had a great time talking to Caitlin and hopefully you enjoy the episode. [music] 02:01  Caitlin (C): I’m Caitlin McDonald. I'm a literary agent at Donald Maass literary agency. I represent primarily Science Fiction and Fantasy for adult and young adult, as well as a little bit of nonfiction. I've been in the business for... I think, eight or nine years no? I lost track, but around there. R: So over eight or nine years you've seen it change a little bit, with going, you know, so heavy on digital all of a sudden, and the opportunities for print on demand, opening up smaller publishers… C: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, at my first agency I was involved in a lot of reworking backlist contracts that had no language for digital to kind of, you know, deal with that change that was really becoming a huge deal. That was 2011, so... there was a lot. It was, obviously 2008 was kind of when digital really hit the market—  K: Yeah. R: Right. C: —started to become... um, but like, 2011 was when people really said, "Okay, this isn't going away. This is serious." [Kaelyn and Caitlin talking over each other and laughing.] K: Oh, people will read things off screens! They don't always need the physical book in their hand. C: And it's not going to kill paper! K: No, no not it's not. C: It's a supplement. K: Yeah. So, Caitlin, could you maybe tell us a little about what a literary agent does? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, like, "Oh, as soon as I get an agent, that's it, then my book's gonna get signed," or, "I'm never gonna do this unless I get a literary agent." Um, I think a lot of authors who are looking for agents maybe don't always know what the agent will do for them. What their job is, after you sign with them. C: Sure, so there are some things that kind of differ from agent to agent, particularly, there's also differences between if you have an agent who focuses on Non Fiction or, versus Fiction. So, it's always worth having a conversation with an agent and asking this question of them directly if they're offering representation because their answer may vary from what I'm about to describe here. But, at the, you know, the basic level, typically, in addition to most of us these days do editorial. So, I will do at least two rounds on a manuscript before I send it out on submission even after I've acquired it, there's always gonna be at least one round of line editing but usually even before that, I'm doing at least one round of structural edits, areas where I'm saying, "I love this character but strengthen their character arc, you know, make their motivations clearer.” “X Y Z isn't working, let's find a way to fix that.” So, I always make sure that I'm doing editorial before we go out on submission. Obviously, submission is the Big Thing™, that's what everyone gets an agent for, but even after we have that deal in place for you, part of our job is to negotiate it so that it's the best deal it could be, both in terms of the offers but also the contract language. So sometimes there are elements that, you know, authors don't necessarily know or that don't come up in the offer point, so it's not a deal point of how much money you're getting, what sub-rights you're contracting out, but really nitty gritty language in the contract that might be boilerplate between the agency and the publishing house but maybe the publisher recently revised their standard contract, so we have to make sure that the language is still what we agreed to. You know, really little things, we're here to make sure that everything is the best it could possibly be for our authors. And then, also staying on top of everything afterwards as well. Os I don't just well, “Here's your editor, the book deal is signed, it's their problem." I'm still there to make sure that you know, everyone is on target for deadline, that the publisher is delivering on publicity and marketing that they agreed to. That, if there are any concerns coming up, a copyeditor who's making changes that the author doesn't like—I've had that problem before. Anything that, you know, any concerns my author has, any discrepancies, any time issues, all of that, I'm here to kind of be a mediator between my author and the publisher. If an author has a problem with anything, if they have a question they're afraid to ask the editor directly, I'm here to kind of be the difficult person so that the author can maintain their good relationship with the editor. The author should never have to ask a hard question or demand something that is going to seem pushy, because that's my job. I'm the one who gets to be pushy and maybe be the person that the publisher goes, "Ugh, them again." But they'll get to have a good relationship with their author. K: I always really enjoy going through the agent because authors, you know, don't wanna be pushy and they're a little, "Oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here," and with the agent it's like, "Okay, let's just figure this out." C: Exactly. We also know what's standard. What's a reasonable request where we can come in and say, "Okay, the publisher's not going to be able to do that but here's a compromise that we can suggest." So we can help mediate a lot of those elements where an author may want something but not know whether it's standard, whether it's something that they should ask for or can ask for, not knowing what is normal. K: Yeah I mean for a lot of authors this is kinda their first foray into publishing and it's overwhelming and it's things that they think they should know already and they really don't. And there's no reason that they should. So, yeah, having and agent, someone that's in your court and able to help you navigate that is so valuable. A lot of people who're going to be listening to this probably do not have an agent already, and they want one. When you're evaluating potential clients to take on. What are you looking for? Obviously a good book is the first major component. But beyond that, is there anything you kind of take into consideration when making decisions on these things? C: Certainly there's an element of understanding how to pitch, clear market identity, knowing that they clearly understand and read within their genre. So, they may... I don't expect them to, you know, know every, have read every book and be as on top of the industry and what's coming out in the next, you know, year, as someone who's in the industry, but I do expect that they read within their genre, that they have comp titles that are relevant, that they show an understanding of what readers are looking for in the sense that they themselves are a reader. So sometimes I'll see queries that come in and describe.. some.. they say, "Oh, this pitch is something that's never been done before," and clearly it has. Then I'm going, "Okay. You definitely don't read this genre at all, and this is probably not a good fit." You need to really make sure you're reading in your genre and demonstrate some understanding of it, because otherwise we will be able to tell. Uh, the other thing that is really helpful is a little bit of that personalization when you're pitching to an agent can just be really helpful. It's not necessary, per se, but I do find it incredibly helpful to show that you know, you've done a little bit of research and it gets me more excited about a project if you know things that I'm specifically looking for. Not just my genre but specific details of things I'm interested in things that I'm looking for that you can cite and say, "Yes, my work has this and I know you want that." Then that can really get me excited about it before I even get to the sample pages and that's a really good way of grabbing an agent's attention. K: You hear that, listeners? Slapping the same thing together and sending it out over and over again is not the best way to get someone's attention, actually doing some research and putting some time into —because that's something we talk about a lot, is this is not an easy process, so if it seems easy to you you're probably not doing it the right way.  R: So one place that folks can find your particular manuscript interests would be on your submissions page? Your submissions guidelines, generally. Um, lightly browse (do not stalk) your twitter, and if the agent is listed on Manuscript Wishlist, which is a website that like, puts together a lot of agents. They can fill out profiles and keep it updated themselves of what they're looking for. That's a couple of places where you can find out, is this agent interested in something I'm writing, and also a lot of agents will have the headers on their social media include the books they've worked on. So if you look at that header photo, it's like a real quick double-check. Is anything.. do I write like anything on here. One, if you haven't read anything on there, stop what you're doing if you're really interested in that agent, and read something that they've worked on. But, it's a quick check, just like, "None of this is anything like what I write, maybe I should look for a different agent, and not waste their time." K: Yeah. Along those lines, one of the questions we had sent along was, "Agents, when they open for queries, this has to do with the alignment of the stars, correct?" C: Absolutely. K: "And the tidal forces of the moon and..." R: "Magic. Lots of magic." K: "And various other natural phenomenon." But when those things happen, what makes you decide like, "Okay, I'm ready to be open for queries again. I'm ready to take on new clients"?
C: I man, I'm sure it's different for every agent. For me, specifically, it really has to do with how much time that I have. How I'm doing with current client manuscripts. Whether I've caught up on all of the queries already in my inbox. That's often something I have to make a really concentrated push, after I close to queries, to then get through all of the ones that are still need to be responded to. Then give myself a little bit of time to get through some manuscripts. I wish I could say that I only open to queries when I've responded to all of the fulls that I've already requested, but that's not the case because then I'd probably never open to queries." K: as an acquisitions editor, I can say the same thing, that I always have a few that I'm still working through but it's like, "But I also need more for the future, so we're gonna open for submissions again." It's hard to balance that. C: Yeah, yeah it is and the work-life balance as well, there's so many elements. Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that most agents aren't reading queries during work hours. They're reading them during their own personal time. Our work hours are dedicated to our clients, editing manuscripts, possibly reading fulls, but for the most part, it is working on our clients and editing the existing manuscripts, going out on submission, making sure everything is up to date. All of the work that is involved with being an agent for our existing clients is pretty much a full time job and finding new clients to add to our list is an important part of our job but it also usually happens outside of the parameters of our forty-fifty hour work week whatever you .. however you define that. I'm often sending queries at ten o'clock at night and that's just how it is. When you have the time for it. K; Yeah. Same thing. I get responses from people that are like, "Uh, were you up this late?" I'm like, "I'm up that late every night. That's when I get my work done!" We talked about this a little you know, when you said what does a literary agent do, but: relationships with authors. Obviously, like, one of your big things is, you're in that person's court. You are their advocate, you are there, making sure that they get the best possible publishing deal, making sure everyone's happy, handling difficult situations for them. But beyond that, your relationship with a writer, what is that like? What do they expect from you? Obviously, it will change depending on how things are happening in their career, but what's your relationship like leading up to a release and then, for example, afterwards? C: This is such a good question because it' actually really important for an author to know what they need about themselves before, if they can. Which is hard to know if you've never had an agent, but if you can try to figure out 'what's important to me?' beforehand, then having that conversation helps you know whether the agent is going to be a good fit for you. Because it really varies for all of my clients. Some of them, you know, I'm in almost constant touch with. Some of them I only head from them when they have a manuscript ready and they send it and it's already revised and they feel like they just... "here it is!" and others are going, "Here are my next... here are one-sentence pitches for my next eight ideas, which one should I do?" "Here's a partial draft." so it really really varies. I've got some authors where I'm working with them on all sorts of different levels of early stages of manuscripts and others that don't come to me until they've got something nearly complete, or at least a full first draft, or a full synopsis, you know, it really really varies. and then the level of contact that they want also varies from author to author there are some who I'm here as you know an emotional support as well as all of the other tasks that my job entails. And then others who are very happy to sort of sit back and only reach out when they actually have a specific publishing question or concern that needs to be addresses. So it really really varies, wildly and it's important to kind of know "how much do I want my agent to be in touch?""Am I more comfortable with email of phone?" "Am I going to be someone who wants to be able to text my agent?" These are the kind of questions that it helps to be able to look a little bit inside and say, "this is.. these are the kinds of communication limits that I want with an agent," and to talk to them about it beforehand and make sure that that's what you're going to be getting from the agent you're looking for. K: Well now, you, I'm sure, in a lot of situations, have to set some boundaries. C: That is true, um, but it.. there often, I find, it's something that is done not necessarily explicitly. I kind of set what I'm comfortable with and if that means I'm not responding to emails that aren't super important on the weekend, then that's just something isn't necessarily discussed beforehand, per se? I know this sounds a little bit contradictory to what I just said, but like R: No but by your responses, you're setting their expectations. C: Exactly. Exactly. K: I know some people that, when they first signed with their agent they're like, "I have this question," and I'm like, "Well go ask your agent then." C: Yes. Exactly. K: "That's what they're there for." "I don't wanna bother them." "That.. I.. you are not bothering them. Other.. you know, you're not calling them at one in the morning having a breakdown about something." That's bothering. Don't do that. C:  Yes, exactly. We're here as a resource so you should always feel comfortable reaching out to your agent about anything that is publishing and work related. That, at least, you should always feel comfortable doing. They might set the parameters of how to do that. Is it okay to just call them ay any time, or do they prefer email? Do they give you their number so you can text them? Depends. I mean, I know many agents prefer not to do that which I think is absolutely a good idea but I'm sure that there are some that are perfectly comfortable with it. So you know, having that conversation beforehand and finding what their preferred system is so that you know whether it's compatible with your preferred system, that's really the key. K: Gotcha. So, we had kind of also talked about this briefly, but one of the other questions we wanted to talk about is, and I'm gonna kinda combine two things here: what catches your eye in query letters, in authors that are querying you, and at the same time, what are some red flags? C: So, what catches my eye, I think'd be a little like what I talked about before, something that really speaks to me personally and actually addresses things that I have specifically said that I'm looking for. Anything that is particularly really unique, like actually finds a way to give me an unexpected twist within the pitch itself. I'm also.. I do really appreciate comp titles that kind of combine, you know, taking two very very disparate comps and combining them to say "here are two things that are nothing alike but if you combined them, that's my book." Then you can get a sense of, "Oh, here is something really new and unique." I once got a query that said it's Jane Austin's Emma meets Dexter. And then.. K: Oh! C: Yeah, and then the plots came out, like, Yes, that makes sense! But getting that, those kind of comp titles, I went, "That is very interesting and I want to learn more." So, you know, it's.. comp titles don't have to be like that but they can be a very interesting way to condense a unique aspect of your book into one creative, short pithy pitch. In terms of red flags, I think it's often a, like I said before, very clear not understanding of their genre or the type of book I'm looking for if they very clearly have misunderstood, not just the genre per se, but something say, comes in and is pretty heavily misogynistic in a certain way or something that just, like, if you check my social media, I'm very clearly not interested in works that are, you know, a certain way, even if they are science fiction or fantasy. And then, also I would say another huge red flag is authors who feel the need to attack other authors or existing books for a genre in their query letter. K: Oh really?
C: that is never good. don't be that person. K: No. C: Yes, I've definitely those books that come in say, "Well, this book was terrible," or "Nothing in YA is good anymore," or, "Twilight was terrible!" K: Oh my god. C: Don't be that person. That's... you know, don't attack other authors in your query. It's not a good look. K: I'm making this face right now because I have read so many query letters and I have never seen that.  C: Really? K: That's like. now see, watch.. cause we're open for submissions now so I'm gonna get like ten of those. Now that I've said that but like, oh my god, wow. I thought I'd seen everything. That's a new one. Okay. R: Actually that comes up on Twitter a lot. I see a lot of agents saying "Please don't do this. You know, don't insult J K Rowling because you think that will make your book sound more intelligent. It doesn't." K: It doesn't and I mean, you know. Come on, Harry Potter. R:  Regardless of whether you like it, it was very successful. An agent wouldn't mind a Harry Potter. C: And it sets yu up as a person who is going to be not someone who plays ball with the industry if you're going to be someone like that then that doesn't send a good message about the type of person you're going to be in terms of how you interact with other authors and publishers. and the fact is other authors: those are your peers, those are your support network. you need other authors because their success is your success. And their blurbs are how you get found and you all have to support each other and so if you're not going to be interested in doing that then you're probably not going to succeed in the book industry. K: I've done a couple things over the years and a question I get a lot is well you guys are like, you know a small independent press, and "yes, we are, it's a lot of fun," "So what about competition from this what about..." It's not like... it's not competition. People, I think. It's not the same as cheering for a sports team. You don't love one team and therefor their failure is other teams' success. People who love and read these genres of books are just going to keep looking for more things to read. So everyone succeeding you know especially in similar veins that you're working in, that's great for you as an author because that means more people might come across your book as a result of that. C: Exactly. K: But it is very interesting when you look at these and you're evaluating if you think you can work with this person. Can I help no only them but like, I need to be successful here. Your author's success is the agent's success but you still have to work within the industry and you still have to be able to put together and sell a book at the end of the day and if you're presenting yourself in a way that's gonna make your agent think "I'm not sure I can do this with this person" that's gonna drive them away.  R: We talk a lot about querying an agent for the first time, creating a new relationship with them, but frequently, especially in genre fiction, book deals are for more than one book. So once you have entered into like the second in a series or the second book that's been optioned as part of the same contract, does your relationship change with the author at all? C: Um, yes, so it's very much, I think, it depends from agent to agent but for me, I'm very much willing to work with authors as early as they have pitch ideas. So they will come to me with, you know, ideas, with early drafts, and I'll be definitely working on things much earlier than I would be than a query. So, obviously, when you query your manuscript should be as close to final as you can possibly make it. You should have already had some beta readers, you should have already done editing, and so at that point the hope is that it will only take a few more rounds with an agent before it's ready to go on submission. Obviously for your second or third book, and books after that, that's necessarily not the case. So yes, I am seeing much earlier drafts. I have worked on books that are completely rewritten from scratch multiple times before going to the publisher ad also part of it is deciding what the next book should be sometimes. So I've had clients where we look at their first book and where it fit in the market place, and their other book ideas, some of which might be very different from the first book, and others might be in between and we say, "okay, how do you want to be positioned in the marketplace as your career? Do you want to be a YA author or do you want to be an adult author? Do you want to be a horror author or do you want to be a fantasy author? If you want to be both that's fine, but if you really feel strongly about one of these things, and you just happen to have one book idea that falls outside that parameter, then maybe we don't so that as the second book, maybe that's the third or fourth. Maybe that's an outlier book." So, figuring out how the author wants to be positioned in the marketplace and making sure that we are following a trajectory that will achieve that is part of what I help them do. K: That's something that I think a lot of people don't realize a lot of agents do is, basically helping the author come up with an identity. And how they're gonna fit into the marketplace, what they want to be known for. Yeah that's really interesting to think about as well. Anything that you wish people knew about literary agents? Any giant misconceptions you frequently come across? You know, obviously the stuff about the bloodletting is all ~true, but the rest of it? C: I think that the big thing I would  just... I really wish to share with people is that I promise we're not scary. It's... We're just people like you. We just love books, like you. I.. when I got to conferences there are so many people who are so scared and I just want to hug them and say, "No, it's okay, I promise.. there's nothing to be scared of." K: Wait, quick qualification. If you run into Caitlin at a conference do not walk up to her and hug her immediately. Ask first. C: Thank you. Fair. Thank you. Yeah, but I also there's just a I feel like there's a I don't wanna say a culture of self-rejection but there is.. I see a lot of self-rejection— K: Oh, yeah, absolutely. C: —on the internet and on social media and people will ask me, "Can I query you?" and I'm going, "Why are you asking me? Just do it. Just do it!" You know, alway always give it a shot and you know, we're just here because we love books and we want to help you succeed. Like we want authors to succeed. We want books to succeed. We're not out here saying no to books because we're up in a castle laughing at all of you. We really really want these books to succeed. We want to see more books that we love. And most of the time, when we reject something, it's with a heavy heart. It's, "I love this pitch but the writing just wasn't quite there yet, but man, I hope they come back to me with another project in a couple of years when they've really honed their skill and improved their writing." You know that's really where we're coming from is, "Not this one, but keep working at it. We're waiting for you to come back next time and really nail it." K: to everyone I hope hearing that is encouraging. I'm encouraged just listening to it and I'm not even querying an agent. Thank you so much for talking to us. This was really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. C: Of course, well thank you for having me, it's been great.  K: So, where can people find you on the socials? C: I'm on most social media @literallycait that's c-a-i-t short for Caitlin, and on the Donald Maass website which is MaassAgency.com. R: Alright so is there anything else that you wanna tease for people, books coming out or anything like that? C: Sure I've got a couple really exciting books coming out over the next month or two. We've got The Resurrectionist of Caligo by Wendy Trimboli and Alicia Zaloga, which is very very exciting. Kind of dark Victorian-esque fantasy, which would be great for anyone who's a fan of the podcast Sawbones. If you're into that you'll definitely like this book. And I've also got The Library of the Unwritten, by A J Hackwith, which is K: Yes C: Fabulous Hell based fntasy about books that are unwritten escaping their library and going on walkabout and the librarion having to chase them down it's very fun and if you love books it really explores the concepts of narrative and character and what it means to have those elements and give them agency so it's a really it's a love letter to the concept of writing. It's fabulous. K: That one's on my list, I'm very excited for that one. C: Oh good. K: Okay, so. The take away here: Agents; they're people just like the rest of us. R: At least one is. K: One of them anyway. The rest are in the castle. R: Okay, thank you so much Caitlin, we really appreciate your time. C: Thank you. 31:34 [Music]
R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general remember you can find us on twitter @WMBcast, same for instagram, or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course you can always retweet our episodes on twitter.  Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

Wulf Moon is a Pacific Northwest writer. Moon wrote his first science fiction story when he was fifteen. It won the Scholastic Art & Writing Awards--the same contest that first discovered Stephen King, Truman Capote, Joyce Carol Oates and many other iconic names in the arts. This story became his first professional sale when it sold to Science World.   His Borg love story won Pocket Books' Star Trek: Strange New Worlds contest. Moon also won a contest by bestselling author Nora Roberts, writing the conclusion to "Riley Slade's Return."   Moon's story “Beast of the Month” earned honors from every judge in the history of Writers of the Future, and finally sold to the Strange Beasties anthology from Third Flatiron Publishing. They recently published his story, "War Dog." Both are also featured podcasts on their website, www.thirdflatiron.com, and they hired Moon to narrate them. “War Dog” is currently ranked #1 in the Critters Readers’ Poll for Best Science Fiction and Fantasy Short Story published in 2018.   Moon has narrated numerous podcast episodes for Gallery of Curiosities and Third Flatiron.He is podcast director for Future Science Fiction Digest.   Donald Maass of the Donald Maass Literary Agency has represented Moon on one novel, and has requested the epic fantasy he's currently completing, Driftweave.  

Donald Maass is the CEO of the Donald Maass Literary Agency, which sells over 200 books a year for its authors to major publishers. He is also the author of many books about writing, including The Fire in Fiction and The Emotional Craft of Writing.

My agent, Paul Stevens, comes on the show to discuss queries, manuscripts, and my weird quirks.Paul worked as an editor at Tor Books for nearly 15 years and is now an agent with the Donald Maass Literary Agency. You can check out their website at www.maassagency.com

In this special Do Some Damage episode, Jay Stringer chats with Chuch Wendig.Here's who Chuck Wendig claims he is:Chuck writes because he can do nothing else.Chuck is a 30-something freelance penmonkey.He is a novelist:His novel, Blackbirds, is repped by Stacia Decker, super-agent of the Donald Maass Literary Agency.He is a screenwriter:He mentored with Stephen Susco (The Grudge, Grudge 2, Red). He’s written a handful of spec screenplays both alone and with writing partner Lance Weiler. Their most recent film effort, HiM, won the Arte France Cinema Award at CineMart and was recently selected for the Sundance Screenwriters Lab in January 2010. Together, Weiler and Wendig are also helping to develop an as-yet-unannounced television property.He is a short story writer:He’s had a number of short stories published across a small array of journals and zines (Not One of Us, 69 Flavors of Paranoia, Whispers from the Shatterered Forum, The Town Drunk, etc.).He is a game designer:He’s been working in the pen-and-paper RPG industry for a third of his life (over a decade), and has contributed to over 85 game books during this time, serving as writer, developer, or both. He developed, for instance, the entire Hunter: The Vigil game line for White Wolf Game Studios. He’s done some work on video game properties, which at present he cannot mention. He’s contributed script work for web content, which at present he cannot identify. Don’t even ask him about the Android app.He is all over the map:Chuck is considering branching out into comic books, take-out menus, religious pamphlets, or witty doormats. Give him a wide berth, as he might be drunk and untrustworthy.He is on the East Coast:Wendig currently lives in the wilds of Pennsyltucky with a wonderful wife and two very cute-but-stupid dogs. PS: You can get the podcast by:1. Right-clicking on the title up there at the top (or, if you have one of those Apple computers, whatever you people do)2. Visiting the iTunes music storeor3. Visiting the Feedburner page.