We Make Books Podcast

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: My sister just finished reading the Grisha trilogy. And she was, of course, more of a fan of the Six of Crows after reading that. But one of the things she messaged me- she was like “yeah, the ending was kind of whatever, but it is very clear that this person was reading Harry Potter when they wrote this.” R: [laughs] K: And I said “Yeah, that definitely comes through.” She gave me this whole list of like, book two is basically just The Order of the Phoenix, and the end battle with all of the Grisha and the stand downs, all this stuff, and I was like “Yeah, I guess you're right.” To be honest with you, I kinda limped through the end of that book, I wasn't thinking about that too much. But anyways, it got me thinking about influences in writing and how writers are influenced and how in some cases that's something that we're like “Yes! You can tell that this writer was influenced by such-and-such, and they weave it so beautifully into their story.” And sometimes you get my sister calling me to complain about how she basically just read Harry Potter with Russian witches.  R: So was your sister accusing the author in any way of plagiarism? K [overlapping]: Not plagiarism. R [overlapping]: As a reader I'm curious, like how the reader perceives it when it's that clear when someone's been influenced.  K: I should've asked her before we started recording this - and this is something we'll get to in there - I couldn't tell if my sister was accusing the author of laziness or unoriginality.  R: Okay. K: That's one of the things I wanted to talk about today as we're talking about influence. What is influence, how are writers influenced? How's the best way to leverage and utilize that influence? And when does influence cross into the realm of the negative? When is it no longer praise worthy? When is it, for instance, lazy, contrived, unoriginal, or, in worst case scenario, bordering into plagiarism?  R: Yeah, because that's a tricky thing - if we always wrote a completely original story, you wouldn't have something like Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Because we wouldn't have a set format that a story would take. So when somebody accuses a fantasy book of being “Star Wars with elves,” well, Star Wars was a Greek epic in space.  K: Oh, I would've called it a Western. R: Okay fine. [overlapping] I mean, people have called it a Western. K: [overlapping] I mean, both work. Both work. [laughs] R: Yeah, but I'm just saying, The Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell is, he's studying the ancient literature, so that's why I decided to say Greek. But if we could always write something that was completely original, there would be no way to study literature with comparisons and contrasts. There are always going to be parallels between stories written in a similar culture by people who are writing in a similar society. Like, a hundred years apart, you would not necessarily detect the influence of Harry Potter in the Grishaverse. But they're not written a hundred years apart - it was maybe a decade, probably not. K: I'd be curious to go back and try to time out when these books were being written, and when that coincides with the release of the latter half of the Harry Potter books. But anyways, real quick, I'm big into definitions, so let's talk about definitions. Influence is the capacity of something - a person, a situation, a circumstance - to have an effect on another person, on the development of the situation, on the behavior of someone or something. Or, in some cases, even the effect itself. You'll notice there that influence is kind of framed as both proactive and reactive. You can influence something, or you can be influenced. We're talking today about being influenced.  R: And we're not talking about Instagram.  K: [laughs] Oh, God. You know what's funny? I went through this whole thing and I didn't even think about the concept of influencers, and now I'm depressed. R: Because you didn't or because now you are? K: [laughs] Because now I am. R: Okay. I'm sorry. I take it back, I didn't say anything.  K: [laughs] So, writers don't write in a void. It's sort of a reverse Heisenberg principle, which is “whatever you study will also change.” Whatever you read changes you, or whatever you consume changes you. So, writers don't write in a void. If you took a baby and raised them in a box with no interaction with the outside world whatsoever, well, to be honest I'm not sure they'd be capable of putting together an interesting story because they've had no influence.  R: You know what's funny, that's why I don't have kids. Because I thought about this kind of thing frequently in high school, like “what would happen if you raised a child in a padded room? And you never interacted with them, and they never saw another human?” So you're welcome, world, that I have not raised any children. Those children are welcome because I did not abuse them in such a manner.  K: [laughs]  R: But it's good to hear that someone else has had these thoughts. Although, Kaelyn and I did originally bond over the fact that we're terrified of the idea of raising children.  K: Pregnancy is just - R: And pregnancy. It's not for everybody. I recognize that for some people it's a beautiful process, but for Kaelyn and for me, it is body horror.  K: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's an entire nother skeleton in your skeleton. [laughs] R: Yes. And it's growing. [overlapping] It's getting larger.  K [overlapping]: It keeps getting bigger. R: And if you've never seen an MRI of a baby's skull, there's a lot of teeth in there.  K: Yeah, also they're squishy. R: Well, the MRI doesn't necessarily show that. It just shows all those chompers, waiting. Waiting.  K: Yeah. There's a lot of extra teeth in there.  R: Okay. [laughs] Where were we going? K [overlapping]: So for our writing- R [overlapping]: A child raised in a padded cell would probably write a different kind of story than somebody who's been exposed to Harry Potter.  K: Yeah, and if you take out every third word, it's their plan to destroy the world with their laser beams.  R: This reminds me of the book The Artist's Way. I think it's a month-long program designed to improve your creativity and I think maybe even to come up with… it's like NaNoWriMo but it's very classist and elitist.  K: [laughs] R: But the first thing it asks you to do is swear off all media for the month. K: Okay. R: And I put the book down right there. K: [laughs] R: Because I was like, that is literally impossible. I was in art school at the time, so I could not promise that I wasn't going to have to look at media. And also, this was written in 1992, before anybody was logging onto the internet daily.  K: Yeah, it was much easier to walk away from media for a month.  R: And I was trying to read it, I think, in 1999 or 2000, and it was even easier, at that point, to walk away from media than it would be now.  K: Yep. R: But, yes, it's called The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity by Julia Cameron. And I imagine that Julia Cameron has a very nice life and is able to unplug from media whenever it is convenient for her to do so. K: Well, in 1992 that meant “turn off the TV.” R: Right, it meant “don't pick up a newspaper” or, you know. K: Yeah. R: In 2016 they re-released a 25th anniversary edition, and I can't imagine they did much to it, but it really probably needed a lot of re-examining to - K: Yeah. It's -  R: - to even be relevant in 2016, I can't even imagine.  K: Now, was the purpose of this to do a detox of influence from your life? R: Yes. That is exactly what it was, to avoid influence for the month and find out what you write, not what the world around you influences you to write. But I think in her case, she was treating world influence and media and current events as a negative.  K: Mhm. R: And I would argue that if you are responding to the world around you, then the politics of your creativity is going to be more relevant and more well-informed. And I think that's a good thing.  K: Well, yeah. And this is something that we can certainly talk about with influence - current influence versus longevity. You'll see a lot of writers that go out of their way to not incorporate things that might later be considered an anachronism in their writing, so that they're not influenced by that.  R: Mhm. K: So that's another good example of influence. So, let's get the elephant in the room out of the way here: influence is not copying. As we were talking about, writers don't write in a void. You're absorbing everything that you interact with and consume every day, and, whether you know it or not, it's influencing and incorporating itself into even your way of thought.  R: You hear that? So if you were following an Instagram influencer, do not copy everything they do.  K: [laughs] Yes. Please don't. But, again, it's the reverse Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Whatever you're consuming changes you. There are entire PhD programs dedicated to studying and understanding the influence that certain parts of literature have had on larger parts of literature. Influence is not a bad thing. In many ways, it's a scholarly pursuit. Go to any Wikipedia page for any sort of well-known novel, and I guarantee you there's going to be a section in there that says “Influence.”  R: Oh yeah, yeah. K: And it's going to be a couple paragraphs talking about the history of the genre, or the subject material leading up to this. Influence is, apart from being an important part of writing, an academic pursuit. So all of that said, we are talking about influence in a very positive way here. We're saying it's great to read things, and to consume and internalize them so that this can help enrich your writing. Something that you really enjoyed, something you thought was maybe unique, or something that you were like, “Oh, what if I applied that to a character that I already have?” That's a good thing. I think it enriches your writing, I think it shows layers and growth, etcetera. K: That said, sometimes influence goes the opposite way. [laughs] Sometimes you've read something and you're like, “this is terrible,” or “this was such a ridiculous ending,” or “I hated that this happened.” And that might compel you to go through your manuscript and scrub absolutely everything having to do with that. The whole point is that whether you mean to or not, you are going to be influenced by external components in your writing. You could never read anything else, and you will still be influenced by things in the world just by existing in it. But we are talking more about influences in writing here, so we'll stick with that.  R: And we assume that you are being influenced by books because, as we say, if you want to be a writer you need to also be a reader. So we're telling you, go read widely in your genre, and part of that is that we expect you to absorb some of those elements and some of those styles. On a conscious level, we want you to look at the covers, we want you to look at the themes and the tropes and everything like that, but we also expect that on a subconscious level that's going to influence you and hopefully make you a better writer within your genre. K: And if you read a lot within your genre, you will start to notice trails of influence yourself. If you read a lot of - especially maybe a really niche kind of fantasy or science fiction genre, you're going to be able to chronologically put some things in order, like “Oh yes, I can see that book A came out at this time, and then three years later this book came out, and there are certainly elements from book A that I can see coming through in book B even though they were written by different authors.” K: So, I was telling Rekka before we started recording–I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this, because for reasons unbeknownst to me and possibly the influence of vampiric elements, I, for whatever reason, picked up my copy of Dracula off the shelf and I've just been flipping through random parts. And then we were talking about doing this, and I was like, vampires are a really really good example of influence through literature. They're something that has always been around - the Mayans actually had a god that was basically a vampire, even though they didn't acknowledge that, bat wings and all. And there's something that–I think you'd be hard pressed to find a significant culture of any sort of longevity from history that didn't have some sort of mythological being that displayed vampire-like qualities. K: In the late 1700s, early 1800s, though, there was the vampire craze in western Europe. There were a lot of short stories and things written about vampires, even though they've been codified as part of the mythos for a long time. But even then, they were sort of holding up the folklore and traditions of vampires–they were reanimated corpses, they were bloodsuckers that came out at night to drain people of their very lifeforce. In some cases, actively rotting bodies, hunched back and demonic looking, claw-fingered and fangs and scary eyes. A lot of this was the traditional folklore. Then we start getting into sexy vampires. [laughs] R: [laughs] I was just going to say. K: [laughs] And there were a couple specific novels that did this. In 1819, John Polidori published a short story called The Vampyre, and this was the first one where the vampire was more of a character rather than just a mindless bloodsucking dead creature. R: Right. This was a vampire worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes.  K: Oh, no one's worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes. [laughs] R: You know what I'm saying. K: I know, I'm teasing. So, it was very popular. So then, a lot of vampire short stories and short novels were coming out where the vampires were getting a little more sophisticated, and all of these were drawing influence from Polidori's short story. It was a very successful short story. So then, in 1872, an Irish author named Joseph Sheridan [with a mock-French accent] Le Fanu - I'm assuming it's French which is why I did that accent - published Carmilla, which was a fantastic novel. And this is, I would say, probably a turning point where vampires are unabashedly being associated with a sexual element at this point. It has a not-very-subtle vampiric lesbian... stalking, I guess, going on through this book. It's fantastic, it's not that long. If you ever get a chance to read it, it's great. K: And then of course, a couple decades later in 1897, we come to Bram Stoker's Dracula. I should, by the way, say that Bram Stoker and Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu were both Irish. Ireland had a shockingly strong folklore of vampires. In some cases they were fae, which is a whole different category of supernatural elements in Ireland, and in some cases they were just reanimated corpses. Anyways, then we get Bram Stoker, who of course gives us Dracula. And this is considered the preeminent vampire guideline bible, if you will. I think when most of us - granted, Rekka and I are older millennials, but - R: [laughs] How dare you? K: I think the first vampire we heard of was Dracula.  R: Mhm. K: I actually remember, growing up, that there was a kid in my neighborhood who just thought vampires were called Draculas.  R: Yeah. I think that was probably a… Not that I thought Dracula was a noun, but I never expected Dracula to look the same way twice.  K: Yeah. Yeah, Dracula was just like - Dracula, vampire. They were interchangeable.  R: Mhm. K: And that's how synonymous this became. Now, look at all the stuff that lead up to this in order for us to get the seminal vampire novel of the time. Stoker was absolutely influenced by all these novels that came before. Something else that's really interesting that Stoker was influenced by is the sexual component of vampires in this. Like I said, that came through hard and strong. Well, maybe I should say most popularly with Carmilla. Here's something else really interesting about Stoker: he was probably gay. It's difficult and inappropriate to go back and retroactively categorize people these ways, but there's a lot of very strong… I'm trying not to say “homoerotic,” I'm trying to say… There's a lot of very - R: Queerotic? [laughs] K: Yeah, there's a- R: There's not a queer person in the universe that will argue this point with you.  K: Yeah. R: I think the LGBTQIA+ are very, very ready to claim vampirism.  K: [laughs] Absolutely. And that's a great part of the influence of this. Some of Stoker's best friends were Oscar Wilde and Walt Whitman. Actually, I believe Stoker either started writing or finished writing Dracula right after Oscar Wilde was imprisoned, and they were exchanging letters while he was in prison.  R: Mhm. K: You have to keep in mind, this was the mid-Victorian period, there's very repressed sexuality, but there was also this burgeoning underground masculine sexual component to it, where everyone - R: See people, this is what happens when you don't let people reveal their ankles.  K: Yes. Yes, exactly. [laughs] So, one of the things through Dracula is this secretiveness, this sense of penetration. Not only the fangs in your throat, but a lot of them get into your head and screw with you that way. This was not something we saw in previous iterations of vampires, who were gross, for lack of a better term. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah.  K: So, this influence comes through in a lot of different ways. And as I'm talking more about Dracula I can say like, “Okay, well there's a lot of very… what we would now consider queer sexual elements that we see in Dracula, coming through with the relationship between Dracula and Johnathan Harker and Dracula and Mina.” But there's also the influence of other writers who were starting to make vampires actually people, rather than Nosferatu-style monsters.  R: Right. K: Dracula, I would argue, then in turn really helped influence the next generation of common horror. At that point we're getting into H.P. Lovecraft and existential horror. Lovecraft, who, by the way, wasn't quite a contemporary of Stoker's, but was very aware and actually wrote some reviews of his writing. He didn't really like a lot of it. [laughs] I would argue that that was probably part of what influenced Lovecraft: it was a hard turn from these very sterile, white-marble, gothic horror novels to a lot of raw, and ocean, and dark mold, steam spaces.  R: You can literally write the sentence “I can't describe this.” and people are like “Woo, that is scary.” K: Yeah exactly. So much of Lovecraft is like, “it's too horrible to describe!” but it's like “Yeah, but can you tell me anyway?” [laughs] R: You mentioned earlier that an influence can be “I don't want to do this.” K: Yes. R: So, here we are. This is Lovecraft saying  “Well, Stoker wasn't racist enough for me, so I'm gonna write my own thing.” K: [laughs] Oh, God, Lovecraft. It's so hard to read some of that stuff. [sighs] Psychologists would be better at trying to figure out Lovecraft's influence than me, I'm certainly not going to. To say the man had issues is an understatement. He was more of a collection of neuroses formed into a human. Anyways, this is just something I was thinking of as a pretty-easy-to-track set of influences. We go from vampires being very loosely defined and having inconsistent characteristics based on what region the stories are being told in, to some stories published that codify certain rules about them, to their evolution from “Eww, it's a rotting, blood-drinking corpse” to “Huh, maybe I'd like date that person.” R: [laughs] Maybe I would like those lips on my bare neck! K: Yes, exactly. Which is a pretty interesting leap that really did not take that long to get from point A to point B. But all of this was just building on influence and influence, after that.  R: Yeah, all you needed was for one author to pick it up and go, “What if vampires, but sexy?” K: [laughs] Yeah. You know what's funny, we have this sort of modern-day depiction of Dracula as a very suave, debonair… what's the word I'm looking for? High-society type person.  R: Sophisticated.  K: Sophisticated, yeah. In the novel, he is those things a little bit, but he is very off-putting and he is... weird to look at, I guess I should say. R: Yeah, there's that first scene where Johnathan is eating in front of him, and you definitely get a vibe that this dude is not right.  K: Like, he's talking about his hairy ears. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah. K: His weird skin, he looks ill, as if when he's making his way to the castle all of the peasantry crying and pressing crucifixes into his hands wasn't red-flag enough for him. R: No, no, no. It's just a quaint little village, this is the thing they do. There is the aspect of vampirism having the power of glamour, and I think this is probably the most effective display of it. The way that he's describing Dracula, there's nothing attractive about this man, and yet. K: He's very drawn to him. R: Mhm. K: And he wants to help him. R: As is Mina. [laughs] K: And Lucy, and all of them. So yeah, vampires. Great example of influence in literature over the course of a relatively short time, shaping something that we now consider to be commonplace.  R: Mhm. K: We've even narrowed it down farther. One of my favorite things about Dracula is, there's nothing that necessarily says he can't go in the sun in that book.  R: Right, right. [laughs] K: It's just that he has no powers after noon, I think, or he loses his powers at sunrise. So he can be outside, but he's just a regular guy at that point.  R: Mhm. K: So, obviously things continued to change and evolve there, the “no going out during the day” is held over from the much older vampire myths. Anyways. So, all of that said, how do we see influences in writing? When can we pick these out? One of the obvious is the story itself, the plot. Maybe some story arcs. R: I would argue that people tend to pick it up faster when it's a similar setting. When it's the worldbuilding, I think people notice it more. K: Okay. R: And I think, again, plot arcs and character arcs are things that we do have to recycle.  K: Absolutely. I think it's rare these days to see completely original, never-before-imagined setting. In terms of world-building, both the world itself, and in my notes here I put “world systems.” Anything from the way magic functions, or government functions, or society functions. There's only so many ways you can organize people, essentially. [laughs] So there may have been something that you came across and you're like “Oh, that's interesting. What if I did this instead?” The characters- anything from the archetypes and tropes of characters to their storylines and their redemption arcs, or even just the relationships, how they interact with each other. How the characters are broken out either into family groups or groups of friends or hierarchies within that. I think we see that a lot. With plot, we can kind of go back to what I said at the beginning of the episode: sometimes there are things in there where it's like, “this is clearly Order of the Phoenix.”  R: Mhm.  K: [laughs] We're just seeing it presented a different way. R: And again, an agent loves this, because you can say “this is my list of story comps.” And if they're successful books, the agent can use that to sell the story and then the publisher can use it to sell the book. K: Mhm. R: So even though sometimes it sounds like we are poo-pooing derivative work, if it comes across as fresh, nobody's going to poo-poo that you have a great list of comps to start with.  K: Definitely, yeah. R: And I would like to note that that is the first time we have said “poo-poo” on this podcast. I feel like that should be marked. K: That definitely needs to be denoted for posterity. R: And now it's been said three times. K: [laughs] Then there's two other areas of influence I'd like to talk about that are a little harder to quantify. One is style. And this comes more to writing style, and how you're presenting your story. For instance, being influenced by the way the author just writes in general, their style, I will harken back to one of our favorite examples here. If you've read Gideon the Ninth it is a very very unique writing style, not something I've ever come across before and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are currently in the process of attempting to imitate it; I don't know how successful they're going to be, but I bet they're trying. R: And then there are others who are influenced by it to say “Oh, I can let loose like that?” K: Yeah. Exactly. Or, “I can try something completely different that I didn't think anybody would be interested in, but if they're willing to do this then maybe they would.” Point of view or viewpoint in the book - if you've read the second book in the Locked Tomb series, Harrow the Ninth, a lot of that is written second person. The Broken Earth series, large portions of that are in second person. R: Well, the Broken Earth series, the amazing thing is it's written in all three. K: Yes, yeah. R: So if you haven't read that I can't go any further, I do not wanna spoil that, even though it's been out for years, the culmination of that book is so good that I refuse to ever spoil it. But go read it, if you haven't read it, for sure. It's a big one - K: It's a lot - R: But it is so worth it. I listen to it on audio, and I can recommend that too. K: Yeah. So both of those books have instances of strange, or - R: Disorienting? K: Disorienting's an excellent word. I remember reading Harrow the Ninth and texting Rekka and going like “Is this like this the entire time?” R: And my only response is “Did you get to the soup yet?” K: [laughs] And it was a mentality shift, and once I just was like “Okay, I fixed my brain to a point that it can accept and read this now.” But another style quality is dialogue. How you incorporate and how you use dialogue in your writing is something that I think is very easily influenced by how other people do that. This can also start feeding into the character influence there as well, how the characters talk and interact with each other is very influenced by dialogue. So then the last kind of nebulous part that I'd like to talk about, and this is a little bit different but it is worth bringing up, is historical influence. There are a lot of books and stories that are nominal retellings of either one or a series of historical events. I'll use Game of Thrones here as an example, and spoilers for anybody who hasn't read or watched - R: I don't care if we spoil Game of Thrones. [laughs] K: George R. R. Martin, well first the basis of a lot of this is the War of the Roses, which was the English Civil War. It was also called the Hundred Years' War; it was just a long, bloody, drawn-out battle of constantly changing kings and powerful families trying to get their person on the throne of England. R: And the interesting part is, it is a hundred years, so the people who started this have cast this war upon the generations to follow, and if that doesn't tell you something about where George R. R. Martin is going to be forced to take the end of the books, I don't know what will, because HBO managed to make the show take what, the war take five years or maybe ten years if that? Just the fact that it was ten seasons, right? Was it ten seasons or nine? K: It was eight seasons. R: Okay, so at most, because of the children aging on the show, it was a nine-year hundred-year war. So if George R. R. Martin is following intentionally the framework of the Hundred Years' war, none of the characters that you're rooting for are going to make it. Just in the nature of aging. K [overlapping]: And there's - you can go through and just read a brief history of the Hundred Years' War, and you'll be able to identify characters in there. Like Tyrion has some very clear Richard III vibes to him. But then there's other historical events and groups of people that he took and pulled into this. The Lannisters are such a clear parallel of the Borgia family that it's almost difficult to know that and read this and know what happened to the Borgias. The Red Wedding was based off of a famous event in Scotland where something very very similar happened to that. Some Scottish lords were invited to dinner by a Scottish lord with English leanings, and he killed all of them, to get in good with the English. R: After serving them bread. K: After serving them bread, exactly. But again, historical influence - the concept of guestright is very important in most cultures and especially in Scotland. So there's so many examples of people taking strong influence from either actual historical events or folklore and mythological events, like the Trojan War and things like that, and incorporating it into their writing. There are a lot of writers who decide “I'm gonna do a modern interpretation of such-and-such,” because maybe - for instance the Trojan War, they're very interested in classic Greek mythology and decide “Hey, that's a great story to tell; I'm gonna set it in a different place but still tell the story.” K: So that's some elements of influence, and before we wrap up here, let's address the thing we started to talk a little bit about but should definitely round out. When is influence just becoming copying, at a certain point? This is hard. Because it's really about finesse and originality. It's about taking something that you liked and putting your own spin on it, so to speak. If you're just re-creating the same story and sticking your characters into it, you're going to get called at best lazy, at worst a plagiarist. R: Yeah, there are plenty of books out there - and I have one to include in the list - that are retellings of a classic story. The problem is when you don't approach it as “how do I make this my story?” K: Yes. I'm gonna use young adult genres here because it's a little bit newer and easier to trace through this, and I'm not going to name books in this apart from the first series that I will name because that author is wildly successful. The Mortal Instruments trilogy - you could probably say series at this point, there's so many books in that world at this point - by Cassandra Clare, is one of the early and premiere urban fantasy young adult novels. This was copied so many times. Some of the authors were a little more original with where they were setting it, some of them were a little more original with where they were putting the characters or who the characters were, but the magical teeenagers who are part of a secret society that protects humanity was everywhere. ‘Cause these books were a runaway success. They were very original; no one had really seen something like this before. The Mortal Instruments created so many tropes that I can't and will not try to name them. R: And I think it's, part of that, somebody loves a book that they experienced so much that they want to hold onto that feeling forever, and one way to do that is to create something completely inspired by that same world. And this is where fanfic comes from, and fanfic is healthy, and it's a great way to express feelings of “I don't want to leave this book world.” But when you take it to a publisher and you say “This is going to sell really well because the other one that already did it sold really well,” as they say - don't follow trends in publishing, because you're five years behind. K: Conversely, a lot of people were able to get things like this published because the market wasn't inundated with this yet. R: Right, you had to be among the first to imitate a successful book, which is why they say don't follow the trends, because you won't be among the first. There are so many people out there writing that there are easily 500 people ahead of you in the queue for the publisher slush pile. K: Yeah and I wanna be clear, the first book of this entire - I'm not joking, I think there's over 20 books within this world at this point - the first one came out in 2007. So yes, the Internet was very alive and well at that point; it was not what it is now. Writing communities on the Internet were not what they are now. But all of this is to say that there were people who just straight up copied this genre, this book in some way. Either in terms of setting, in terms of characters, in terms of the magical elements of this, they just straight up copied this and I gotta be honest with you, a lot of them were not terribly successful. [laughs] Some of them were, though, and some of them made some money off of this. R: Well, for other readers who are not writers, when the same thing happens they come out of a book series and they have to wait for the next book, they want more. K: Exactly, they were looking for more. R: This is not unlike when the animation company puts out a very similar cheap animation to the latest Disney release. I worked at Blockbuster, and I saw this all the time. You'd have a big animated Disney release, and you'd have this tiny company out of who-knows-where that put together an animated copy, and they rely on parents and grandparents to grab the wrong one. This is not like trying to give the kids more of what they want, this is like “If we are gonna be next to this Disney movie on the shelf, someone will pick us up by accident and we will make money.” K: Well I always remember because a lot of Disney's classics, like the Disney renaissance movies, they were all like public domain stories. So they would just make that and they could get it out on VHS faster than Disney could - R: Yeah, they were made direct to video. K: Because Disney left it in - like everyone knew what the upcoming Disney movies were. So if you knew there was gonna be Aladdin, well, the story of Aladdin is public domain, you start making Aladdin right away. [Brief interlude of car noises] R: I literally believe that Mike's apartment is built on an overpass. K: No, just next to a road with a lot of people who drive like idiots. R: Well that was like a garbage truck, but anyway. K: That was a motorcycle. R: That was a motorcycle?? It sounded like it had at least 16 wheels. K: Yeah. R: Alright, sorry, so Aladdin - K: So everyone knew what movies Disney was making well in advance, and of course these would take years after they were announced to actually be finished and put in theatres. So if Disney says “we're making Aladdin” - R [overlapping]: Before it's in theatres! K: - well then, another small studio can also make Aladdin. The animation isn't gonna be great but then Aladdin's gonna be in the theatres and then a week later the imitation Aladdin are going to be on shelves, and grandparents are gonna go “Oh my grandchildren want to see -” R: Or “They've been talking about this movie and here it is on VHS,” and they don't know how theatre releases work and so they grab it and buy it, and they spend $18 or $15, seems like a really good deal on a Disney movie, and the animation studio makes their money back. So they do it again. K: So don't be that cheap animation studio. Don't be the person that's taking something that somebody put a lot of time, thought, and creativity into, and churning out the cheap, fast, easy-to-consume version of it. R: Yeah and I don't think, when it comes to writers - I mean I'm sure there are people out there who go “Okay this is the newest thing, I am going to behave like an algorithm and I am going to make another version of it and then release it, and I will make lots of bucks.” There are those writers that–they do that on purpose. So don't be them. But I don't think any of our audience are going to be them. And if you were thinking that that was a great way to make a successful book, let us correct you. But if you are inspired by Gideon the Ninth, or by Mortal Instruments, or anything like that - take the time to develop a story just like you would a completely inspired out of left field story, and take the time to put it together in a considerate and thoughtful and unique way, and then we approve. You get our approval. We're not promising to buy the manuscript, but we are approving a heartfelt influenced work, not an imitation that is intended to ride the wave of success of someone else. K: Exactly. R: Now when we're saying “copying,” are you talking about the publishing houses out there who literally lift the copy and try to sell it on Amazon, and just do it again and again and again as they get caught and cancelled? K: [laughs] No, no. Copying has, I think the way I'm defining it, more to do with not adding any creativity or original elements of your own, just saying “I liked what this person did, I'm going to do it too.” And listen - it's a fine line. One of the things that's really interesting about plagiarism is it's either very obvious - somebody had too many parts in a book, a novel, a poem, that are clearly just from another book - or, you've gotta go through a whole process of proving that somebody had access to something you were working on and directly lifted elements from that and put it into their book. Plagiarism is either very straightforward or very difficult. R: And, with plagiarism, they have plagiarism checkers on the Internet; I think a lot of teachers appreciate that because they can't read everything. So they can run an assignment from a student through a plagiarism checker, and that plagiarism checker can do its best with whatever it has access to in its database to catch - K: Plagiarism checkers are very good now, by the way. R: But we're talking word-for-word plagiarism. Sometimes what we refer to in the publishing world as plagiarism is actually trademark infringement. K: Yes. R: And that is difficult because if you write a story with Harry Potter in it, but you change his name and all the words are your original words, how do we run a plagiarism checker against that? K: Yes. So it's like I said, either very easy or very difficult to prove plagiarism; there's rarely a middle ground there. R: Although there are books that have been caught lifting a paragraph or two, from different books. So like the entire thing is plagiarized, but it's plagiarized from different sources. K: Yeah. You see instances of plagiarism tend to show up more in academic and scientific publishing than in fiction and genre-writing. It definitely does happen, though. R: Yup. Because, again, there are people out there who are confused about what is allowed and what is advisable in writing.  K: There are some really significant seminal works in American literature especially–I'm sure globally but I just happen to know the American ones–that are just plagiarized in certain places. And a lot of them were written in a time where it wasn't as easy to check this, so we- R: Find out much later, when it is easier, how much that was widespread. K: Yup. Exactly. R: There are nefarious people. I was referring, in my last statement, to the innocent, naive new writer, who just does not understand what is and isn't acceptable. Or, they didn't intend for it to go widespread, and they wrote a little thing for fun and end up finding out that they are not welcome and doors are being shut in their face because they crossed the line and it got noticed. K: Yeah, exactly.  R: That's the thing, a little baby writer learning about things the very hard way. It's a shame. That would be someone that you would hope would find a mentor who would guide them in the right direction before that kind of thing gets shot in their face. But with a pen name you can be reborn, as long as you reiterate yourself in better forms than the previous mistakes that you made. K: Yeah, and plagiarism should be very easy to avoid. R: Mhm. K: If you're looking at somebody else's work and saying “I wish this was mine, I'm going to make this mine,” don't do that. You should never be copying text from somebody else. Everything should be written on your own.  R: Yeah, don't go, “How did that person write it? I loved that so much.” Well yes, you did, but that's not your voice. So write it yourself. And I would say that if you close a book and you go, “Oh, I'm so inspired to write,” and you sit down and you start writing right away, don't publish that. [laughs] K: Yeah. R: There is a process to developing your own ideas even if it's mostly internal and you never grab a notebook and work out the story itself. The process of coming up with your own ideas is not “I just read this, I'm going to go write because I'm inspired and I'm going to finish that book before I do anything else.” [laughs] That's probably going to be a very derivative, if not plagiaristic, book. So don't do that. I always recommend you sit with your ideas for a while before you sit down and write it.  K: Absolutely. I mean, that's important in general. R: Carry it around like a baby, pretend you're some kind of marsupial and you have your twelve-day gestation period but you still carry that little joey around for a while before it's ready to enter the world. That's kind of the process that I recommend for a writer. K: [laughs] So there you go. Be a marsupial. R: Be a marsupial. The opossum tail has its own fingerprints which are unique to it, so there's that. Grow a prehensile tail and commit crimes with it so that you can be tail-printed later. Alright, I don't know where this story's going.  K: I like it, I like it. R: Yeah, I like it too, but it's not a good way to wrap up an episode because all we can do is just stop. [laughs] So, if you have any questions about plagiarism or inspiration, or you just want to share your inspirations and influences, you can @ us on Twitter or Instagram @WMBcast. You can find us on patreon.com/WMBcast, and we will have some more marsupial facts for you in two weeks. K: [laughs] R: [laughs] Thanks everybody for listening, and I hope this was a helpful discussion. Kaelyn and I have to go sit at a desk and figure out- have we fulfilled the promises that we made to you when we started this podcast? Because we feel like we've just kind of been indulging ourselves in what topics we bring up, so if you feel like, “Hey, you said you were going to cover this, and you never covered that,” definitely tell us that too, because we want to go back to our mission statement and make sure that every once in a while we give you an episode that's in line with that. So if you have input to that regard, please let us know. Otherwise, marsupial facts in two weeks! Thanks everyone!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 71 Transcription Kaelyn: Today we're talking about villains and antagonists, and why they're not actually the same thing, except in the cases that they are. Rekka: Yes, exactly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Perfect. I think that nails it. Sometimes they're not the same thing, sometimes they are. K: Yeah, and we'll kinda get to this but, most villains are antagonists - most, not all. Not all antagonists are villains. And in fact you will likely, in any given story, have multiple antagonists, not all of whom are the villain. I went through and really dug up all of this stuff; shockingly, the word ‘hero' is the one with the most definitions attached to it, and most different con - R: We're not talking about heroes today! We're not! K [overlapping]: Well we - but we have to, because we don't get villains without heroes, and we don't get antagonists without protagonists. Both villains and antagonists are defined and really only exist so that they can oppose or create conflict for the hero or protagonist. It kinda makes you wonder, if left to their own devices, maybe they're just a mad scientist in a lab somewhere. R: Maybe they're the hero of their own story. K: Yeah, and then suddenly someone shows up to fight them and now they're the bad guy. [laughing] R: “I was perfectly lawful and good until you showed up!” K: Exactly, yes. The basic difference between a villain and an antagonist is that an antagonist is somebody who is there to contend or oppose the main character, typically the protagonist of the story. They're there to create opposition. A villain is doing that, but they're evil. R: [laughs] K [laughing]: What they're doing is, the opposition that they're creating is either causing harm, causing suffering, will destroy the human race. It could be something more on a micro scale, where they've kidnapped the daughter of the main character; maybe they're trying to get their lemonade stand shut down so that they can sell lemonade that's gonna turn people into lizard people. An antagonist at the surface is just somebody who's doing things that's causing problems for the protagonist. They don't necessarily have to be evil. R: They could just be a rival. K: Yeah. Or any number of other things we're gonna get to here, but. And in fact as I mentioned, as you're reading a book, you're frequently gonna come across antagonists that are not actually evil. There's gonna be an antagonist who's the villain who may be evil at some point, not always, but there will be people that are antagonists. I will use an example that we love to use: Gideon the Ninth. Harrow definitely serves as an antagonist to Gideon through the book. But Harrow is not evil. R: Right. K: That's a great example of a villain operating without the audience knowing that the protagonist is coming into direct conflict with them because, we don't really find out who the villain of the story is until the very very end of it. Then we can look back and go like ‘Ah yes I see all of these things now.' The villain in the story, and spoilers if you haven't read Gideon the Ninth, but also if you listen to this podcast and you still haven't read it - R: You obviously are never going to read it at this point. K [laughing]: Yeah. The villain turns out to be Dulcinia, who is impersonating another character - and I stayed away, when writing notes for this and getting into the philosophical of what is evil and what is not - for these purposes we're gonna call her motives evil, in that she is trying to hunt down and destroy a lot of different people for her own reasons. The conflict that we come into there actually causes the antagonist and the protagonist in this, Gideon and Harrow, to sort of team up to oppose the actual villain, which by the way is a very common writing trope. Antagonists are a necessary component to any story even if they are not the source of central conflict. R: Yeah, because - and I know you're gonna lean into this example - but in Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy feels like he is central to everything in Harry's life, even though most of the time he just shows up to spew some awful thing he's overheard his parents say and then go away again. K: Draco is a good example of an antagonist who goes through a lot of different forms. Draco in the first few books of the series, he kinda shows up to make some comments and then leaves. He's not really doing much. Even in the second book when he's talking about the Chamber of Secrets and the heir of Slytherin and he actually is sitting around going ‘God I wish there was a way for me to help him' - well, okay, that's what minions do. Small antagonists. R: Most of the time everything that Draco Malfoy does or says is just to reinforce the fact that he's a jerk. K: Yeah, Draco just sorta pops up to remind all of us that there's Voldemort out there and his followers are terrible, because we don't see or interact directly with Voldemort for a lot of these books, so Draco's there to kind of remind us that he's out there. But then we finally get to book six, when Draco is given a very specific task to do: kill Dumbledore. And those listening at home, ‘okay well doesn't that make him a villain?' Well - does it? Because first of all he doesn't really actually wanna do this, but he has to. Second, he doesn't do it. At the end, he's not the one who carries this out. So again, everything's relative here. Because to Harry, he is just this thing that Harry feels he needs to track down and find out what's happening. You could go so far as to argue that Harry is creating his own conflict here, because if he just left Draco alone and went about his life trying to find these Horcruxes, things would've gone a lot smoother. R: [laughs] K: Dumbledore keeps telling Harry, ‘Hey. I got the Draco situation under control, don't worry about it.' Not in so many words and maybe if he had, again, things would've gone differently - R: You know what, communicating clearly is the antagonist of a plot. K: Okay. So that's interesting that you say that, because antagonists are not always people. R: Mhm. K: Antagonists can be certain external factors that the protagonist has to contend with. A good example of this is nature, in something like the movie Castaway. It's not evil - R [overlapping]: Okay. I was gonna say Deep Impact, like the meteor is not a villain, the meteor is an antagonist. K: Yeah. Exactly. It's not evil. The meteor or nature or something is not saying like, ‘Yes, I will destroy the world, and then also Tom Hanks.' [chuckles] R: If it can twirl its mustache, it might be a villain. K: It's just there, and it's something that the characters have to contend with. It can also be something supernatural; the thing I thought of off the top of my head was The Nothing in NeverEnding Story. It's operating unconsciously, if you will, in the sense that it doesn't seem to have nefarious purposes. It's just existing, and it's just growing. The characters are opposing it, they're trying to find a way to stop it, but it's not evil in and of itself. R: A hero trying to stop global warming is not fighting a villain. Unless - K: Ah, there's some villains in there. R: Yeah never mind, I take all that back. K: An antagonist can also be something like a society or an unjust system that the hero has to live and function in. The example that came to mind was Les Miserables. The main character, Jean Valjean, is sent to prison for stealing a loaf of bread because his sister and her children were starving. And we as the audience are meant to understand here that, while Javert - I believe is the name of the officer - is doing his duty by arresting him because he did commit theft, we understand that it is the dire circumstances of his society and his country that caused him to do this. His whole struggle and story is not only trying to lift himself up and overcome this system, but trying to one, make good on people he had hurt and things he had done in the process of this, but two, help other people that are also stuck in this system by hopefully coming up with a way to better it in the long run. I won't say overthrow it because he actively avoids that whole - R [overlapping]: Right. K: - part of the process in this story, but he is in his own way trying to get things to a better place. R: Yeah. K: I went through and just like, some ideas of antagonists who are not necessarily villains. We talked about Draco Malfoy - I will go to my grave saying that Draco is not a villain, he is first convenient exposition, and then an antagonist and an unwilling one at that. One of the ones I also thought of was Catra, from - R: Ah! K: - the first half of She-Ra, she kind of serves as sort of like a minion antagonist. R: Uh-huh. K: Her character evolves, and we'll talk about that as we continue to go through this. But she's an excellent example of just an antagonist. R: And again kind of like that rival thing - K: Yes. R: - like in anime or certain role playing video games, you always have the rival show up, and then by the end you are working with them to fight the actual villain. K: Another category is the conflict creators: people who are not evil, they don't have nefarious plots, but they're making the life of the main character unbearable. Mr. Darcy - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - from Pride and Prejudice is an excellent example of this. I threw the Lannisters on the list, and I'm sticking with the books - R: Right. K [laughing]: Not the TV show. R: So in this version, the Lannisters haven't managed to accomplish much yet. K: Yeah, exactly. Because, really, what are they doing? Are their motives evil? No, their motives are promoting and securing the prosperity and wellbeing of their family as much as possible. Now, they're doing things that again, evil being relative, we might look at this and go ‘oh they're evil.' I will choose the beheading of Ned Stark as a good example there. That's only evil to us because we like Ned Stark. R: Right. K: Because we look at him and see a good, just man who is being undone by his own kindness and mercy. The Lannisters look at him and go, ‘this guy's an idiot, and not only that he's a threat.' R: Mhm. K: ‘If we send him to the wall do you think his family is gonna go, ‘ah ok no problem, no harm no foul.'' Yeah, Joffrey's an impulsive little shit, who should not have done that and obviously messed up the plans of a lot of different third parties there, but from the perspective of the Lannisters he's right. R: Mhm. K: There was no reason to spare Ned Stark's life. R: It does start with the two incestuous Lannisters pushing a child out of a window though, so. K: Yes, and we can - that's a whole other episode about - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: Well, trust me, I could do a whole episode about the evolution in literature, writing, and various media of using sexually-based components of character's personalities to demonstrate that they're evil. R: Mhm. K: But yes, this isn't to say that Jamie and Cersei themselves aren't evil, but the Lannisters as a whole are conflict creators. R: Okay. K: And within there they're all opposing each other in certain ways, but they're all kind of presenting a united front. R: The Lannister corporate machine. K: Yeah exactly. Casterly Rock incorporated. They're all presenting a united front in the promotion and wellbeing of their own family. There's obviously a lot of stuff going on there that we the audience know about, but pretend you're an outside observer in Westeros. Apart from some slight patricide - R: [laughs] K: - but that's okay, because that was the member of the family who we just barely put up with and obviously there was something wrong with him and we probably should've thrown him down a well a long time ago. R: Are you talking about Tyrion or are you talking about Tywin - K: Both, but from the perspective of the Lannisters, Tyrion. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You can recover from that one, because of course there was something off about him, look at him. Never mind that he's the smartest and, actually, most caring member of their family, but y'know. That's not important, apparently. I made up an antagonist category that I'm calling “general pains in the ass.”  R: [laughing] K: [laughs] Where they are not necessarily doing anything, but their existence is just infuriating to the point that it's creating conflict for the protagonist. The one that I always love to point to is Gary from Pokémon. R: Mm. K: Who's just Ash's rival but it's a very hilariously one-sided rivalry.  R: Right, right. K: [laughs] The other one that I think is very good is actually: Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask in the anime. Because he is also trying to get the rainbow crystals.  R: Right. K: In a pain-in-the-ass antagonist - I would throw Rei in there. R: [laughs] Yeah, there you go. K: Again, the anime - the manga did not go into this, but they're constantly fighting over who's gonna be the better this-or-that, and who's doing the better job, and again, it creates conflict for Usagi because Rei is hyper-confident and very good at this, and Usagi is not, at all.  R: Right. It has more to do with Rei just constantly criticizing her and making her progression slower than anything else.  K: Yeah, you'll notice there's a lot of overlap here because apart from being a general pain in the ass in that scenario, Rei is also a conflict creator.  R: Yeah. K: The last one that gets a little philosophical is the protagonist themselves. Holden Caulfield is of course the standout example here, but I would take anybody that can't get out of their own way and put them on this list. One of the thoughts I came up with was Anakin Skywalker.  R: Okay. K: More with the Clone Wars TV show as a better example of that, but you certainly see it through the prequels as well. Has a set of morals and code that he lives by that is in direct conflict with what the Jedi are teaching him and telling him to do. R: Mhm. K: And that's an excellent case study into a descent into villany by having a singular goal and taking more and more extreme measures to meet it. R: Like Draco, there's somebody that is coaching him and trying to lead him in a direction that he wouldn't have chosen on his own almost at any point.  K: I'm not sure I agree with that, because what we see Anakin do over and over again, his singular motivation-- and this is, by the way, his antagonistic component-- is “protect my friends and loved ones.” R: Mhm. K: And so he's willing to take more and more extreme measures that in some cases are going to get him in trouble, he's going to have to go in front of the Jedi Council and go ‘I'm really sorry I did that, but I did save Obi-Wan, so I think it all works out in the end.' And you've got Yoda silently screaming in his head, going ‘This is not what Jedi are supposed to do, this is dangerous.' R: Yeah. K: But then also, it gets him to a point where his moral code is coming into conflict with what is important to him. So, yes I killed a bunch of people on a spaceship, but I saved all of the Senators and the Jedi on it. Well, now I've killed a bunch of children because I thought it was going to save my pregnant wife.  R: Mhm. K: And we're getting to a point where he can't differentiate those two things from one another because in the end you're still saving something or someone important.  R: Right. But I still think that - K [overlapping]: Oh, yes, having Palpatine - R [overlapping]: that progression -  K: - breathing in his ear for the whole time was not helping. [laughing] R: Yeah, that was an outside influence that encouraged that progression. K: Absolutely, yeah. So, that's another antagonistic force - that is an external factor, people attempting to influence the protagonist.  R: Mhm. K: So, we talked a lot about antagonists, and as we said, most villains - not all - most villains are antagonists but not all antagonists are villains. In order to be a villain, you gotta be evil. You have to be a quote-unquote “bad guy.” And you've gotta be doing something that is bad, something that's hurting either a people, or an entity, maybe nature, or a planet itself. Typically, you've got selfish motivations here. R: Mhm. K: Sometimes you have no motivations, and we'll get into that, because the pure evil villains are one of my favorite villains. But, villains are working to destroy a heroic purpose or protagonist. They may not know that that's what they're doing, but they're doing it. Some villains go their whole story without realizing that there's somebody working their way up to opposing them, because their protagonist is such a little miniscule blip on the scale of this evil plan here that they didn't even know someone was opposing them. Villains, they have to be bad. They don't exist in a vacuum. Y'know, we used the idea of the mad scientist who doesn't know he's the bad guy -  R: Mhm. K: - until someone shows up to fight him. If that guy's just left in his lab making some little itty bitty Frankenstein monsters to run around and help him with his experiments and things, then he never leaves and nothing bad ever happens, and the new Frankenstein monsters are happy with their existence, he's not a villain! [laughs] However, if he's oppressing those little Frankenstein monster guys, or maybe they're escaping out into the world and doing bad things to people that they encounter, that then starts to move him into the realm of villain.  R: Now, what if he's in his lab and his experiments are destroying the planet outside the lab, but he never leaves and he never realizes, and the Frankenstein [ed.: monster]s are happy?  K: Yeah, so this is where it gets weird, because what he's doing is evil but he's not doing it on purpose.  R: Mm. K: I'm trying to think what the classification for that would be. An unwilling villain, essentially. Maybe more of an antagonist at that point. I'm trying to come up with an example of something where somebody shows up and informs a scientist or creator doing something that what they're doing is having a negative impact on the world around it and they had no idea.  R: There is an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where they go to a planet where the people on the planet basically take some of the children off the Enterprise because they can't have children themselves, and the crew is able to convince them that it's their very powerful computer system that's causing radiation that's preventing them from being healthy, and that it would happen to the kids too if they stayed, and so on and so forth.  K: Yeah, I'm trying to - like, this one isn't necessarily as good an example, but in Ender's Game, at the very end we find out that the conflict, this whole giant conflict, kind of began almost on a misunderstanding that the human population encountered alien life in the form of bugs that were a hivemind.  R: Mhm. K: And the bugs killed all of the humans they encountered not understanding that there was a life form out there that wasn't a hivemind. Because from their perspective, it didn't matter if a few soldiers got killed, they were just essentially vessels for the larger collective consciousness. They didn't understand the - R [overlapping]: Right. Individuality. K: Yeah. So, that started them as an antagonist, but then this war escalates and escalates and, that one I don't know if we can come up with “villain” and whether sides are evil, at that point, but. With villains, they might not even need to know that they're directly opposing the main character. The biggest difference between the villain and the antagonist is that sometimes, but not always, the antagonist forms more of a plot role. It's somebody to be there to create conflict, to move the story along, or to motivate the protagonist. It's somebody who may provide opportunities for growth for the protagonist as well, again through opposition. K: Everything is opposition and conflict for antagonists. Antagonists, they can be friends or friendly rivals of the protagonist, but they are a plot role, they are helping to develop and move the character and the stories along. A villain is a character type. This is a potentially necessary component of the story, depending on the type of story that you're telling, and they have a role to serve within that. They have to be the central point of conflict for evil reasons, to give the character something moral and good and just to fight for and overcome. If this sounds contrived, or this sounds pedantic, I don't know what to tell you because this is literature. [laughs] R: [laughing] Yeah. K: This is - you will find this across all of human history in literature, the conflict between good and evil. That is the central focus of it. And listen, what we consider good and what we consider evil varies from culture to culture, time to time. Heroes don't fit a certain set of criteria across all cultures. If you go back and read any Greek myth, and what they consider to be heroes, most of these guys were assholes. Like, really bad people. But they did heroic things, and they lived in ways that were acceptable to the ancient Greeks.  R: Mhm. K: So therefore they were heroes. The Greeks are really interesting in that they did not write what was idealized, but what was true. So even though we know that the way they conducted their society, the way they lived and acted, is abhorrent to us, at the time it was acceptable. Not only acceptable, but encouraged.  R: Right. Perhaps even seen as heroic behavior.  K [overlapping]: To that end—yeah. To that end, evil is the same way.  R: Mhm. K: I'm gonna throw one last monkey wrench [laughs] into this - the villain, as we kept saying, most villains but not all are antagonists, because sometimes the villain's the protagonist. The villain is only the antagonist when they're not the main character of the story, when they're just serving as the sense of conflict. But sometimes in stories, the villain, who is evil and is doing evil things, is the protagonist, is the main character that we're following. Two of my favorite examples of this are Light from Death Note and Dexter from Dexter. Light is a teenager with a god complex who I wouldn't even say “starts off trying to do right in the world,” because if you watch the series really he's just experimenting using bad people until he gets the plan figured out. But, for those who are unfamiliar, Death Note is an outstanding anime that I highly recommend about a teenager who comes across a notebook that is stolen from a Japanese death god and learns that the names he writes in the notebook will die. And he gets more and more specific about specifying “will die at this time,” “will die in this way,” et cetera. And enters into this whole cat-and-mouse psychological thriller thing with himself and the police that are trying to stop this serial killer that they don't understand.  R: Right. K: The whole thing turns into this god complex of him establishing rules of what he thinks are right and wrong and threatening the entire world with what would basically be instantaneous death at his whim if they don't adhere to it. So let's be clear, Light is evil. He is killing people because they're not acting the way he wants them to. But he is the main character and the protagonist of the story, and if you watch it you find yourself cheering for him outwitting the police, outwitting this detective. One of the detectives, by the way, is his father. And you're still goin,g “Come on, Light, you can get yourself out of this one!” Dexter Morgan from Dexter is another good example. Dexter is a serial killer. Dexter has kill rooms where he duct tapes people to tables, ritualistically stabs them, chops the bodies up, and drops them in the water off the coast of Miami.  R: Mhm. K: Dexter also has a complex set of morality that he adheres to, and Dexter is a little bit different because he doesn't want to do these things, he wishes he wasn't like this, but he knows that he is and there's nothing he can do about it. The books are a little stranger about this than the TV show. So he's channeling his awfulness into only killing murderers.  R: Right, and the rules of morality that he follows are not actually his morals.  K: Yeah. R: They were given to him. K: Yes. As a way to hopefully help maintain and control him. But he's still killing people. And he's still operating outside the justice system. He's very careful about gathering all the evidence and knowing “yes, this person's definitely a murderer,” but he's still serving as judge, jury, and executioner without giving anyone the benefit of due process. In his mind it doesn't matter why you killed somebody. You killed somebody. And it's coming less from a place of morality than an opportunity to be an outlet for his own base urges. Villains can be protagonists. Just because somebody is the main character of the story doesn't necessarily mean that they're good.  R: In fact, I feel a little bit better about some books thinking about it that way. [laughs] K: Yeah, absolutely. And, look, there's a whole thing you can get into with the hero vs. the antihero, and what is considered heroic and what is considered acceptable; god, I think there's been entire books written about this, with Superman as a core component there. It is very nuanced to kind of sort these things out of where the line is between hero and villain, and even more so where the line is between antagonist and villain. At what point do you stop being just an inconvenience or a pain in the butt that someone's gotta deal with and become somebody who is an active threat to not just the protagonist but potentially those around them as well? R: I know a book can have antagonists and villains, we've established several that do. Can you have a book with more than one villain?  K: Absolutely!  R: How do they not just sort of shrink down to become antagonists, then, if there's more than one? Or is it just because of their behavior being evil? K: Let's go back to another favorite of ours, Avatar: the Last Airbender. I would make the argument that both Azula and Ozai are villains. I think there are definitely people who would take Azula and put her more in the antagonist category; I disagree, she's evil, she has evil motivations. She also wants to conquer and subjugate the entire world and is willing to burn it down to do it. Hers and her father's ideologies and motives line up pretty closely. The difference is that Ozai sits in this palace and we don't see him for most of the series, and Azula's out there running amuck. R: So one can be a subordinate of the other, and they can both still be villains. K: Absolutely, yeah. And villains can work together, we got the superhero team ups on villains all the time. Dunno if you ever watched Venture Bros. - R: Yeah. K: - but the Guild of Calamitous Intent is one of my favorites, not that they're all teaming up against the same protagonist there. But yeah you absolutely can have multiple villains; one who is working under or for the other. You could have minions that are villains, as long as their intentions are evil. To that end with Avatar I would say Ty Lee and Mai are antagonists, not villains. Because they're minions who are kinda just there to do what Azula says but like, they don't necessarily want to burn down and subjugate the rest of the world, they're just sort of along for the ride. I think with multiple villains, a lot of times when you see that you're kind of dealing with an ensemble cast, and everyone's gonna sort of have a little area they have to go break off into. But not always, look at Star Wars. Yeah, Darth Vader was redeemed at the end, but you had two evil villains one right after the other, and again we're kinda seeing the same power dynamic as Azula and Ozai. K: To kind of round all of this out, villains are evil. And they usually have to have some sort of evil motivation or plan or action to match this. They might be so evil that they aren't even aware that everyone knows they're evil and is trying to stop them. Villains do not necessarily have to come in immediate direct conflict with protagonists in order to be villains. They can just be out there doing their little villain evil plan thing and not even know that someone's coming to fight them to the death until that person shows up to do so. They don't have to be directly opposed to the protagonist. In some cases, they can be the protagonist. But they've gotta have bad intentions. R: For the thrill of having bad intentions. K: Some of it can be for the thrill. The pure villains, those are my favorite ones, the ones that we never quite find out why they're doing what they're doing, they're just doing it. I use the example of Maleficent, from the original Sleeping Beauty movie, not the Angelina Jolie with lots of backstory and sympathetic character origins. Maleficent shows up, she's mad that she didn't get invited to the party but we kind of all get the impression that there's a reason she wasn't, but nobody quite knows what it is or what's going on here. R: Because we knew she would make a scene! K [laughing]: I think it's because she showed up and cursed the princess. R: So they saw that coming, you're saying. K: Yeah maybe. R: Even though the exact way to prevent that, according to Maleficent, would've been to invite her. K: The logic gets a little circular there, to be sure. [laughs] But yeah so, the villain is a character type, it's not a plot role. The villain is not always necessarily there to advance the protagonist or the plot. They certainly can, but they're not doing it directly all the time. R: Mhm. K: This is, villains are one of those sometimes-but-not-always-except-for-this-and-then-that-happens kind of situation. Antagonists on the other hand, they're not necessarily evil, they can be actually just regular cool decent normal people who happen to have a conflicting agenda with the protagonist. They just want different things. Last week we did MacGuffins. The antagonist may just be running around after their own MacGuffin, and for some reason that's causing problems for the protagonist. Maybe they also want that MacGuffin for a completely different reason, one that is mutually exclusive of what the antagonist wants; they can't team up there. Or maybe they just also wanna have the top spot at the dojo, and so they're gonna be in conflict with the protagonist there. The thing that makes the antagonist an antagonist is that they are opposed to the protagonist, and they will cause conflicts with the story's main character. It's a plot role, and it doesn't necessarily speak to the character's personality or motivations. They are there to create and cause conflict for the main character to either resolve, oppose, or fall to. R: So when I proposed this topic to you, I kind of thought of antagonists as mini-bosses and the villain as the big boss, thinking of video games and the way that's usually structured. So, this is unexpected. K [laughing]: Listen, an antagonist can be a mini-boss. It's all about motivations. R: But they can also just be that person living their life that has always bugged you because they microwaved fish in the lunchroom that one time. K: That person might be a villain. R: [laughs] Just wanna contradict me at every turn. K: I dunno, somebody who microwaves fish, that seems like evil intentions to me. [laughing] R: Look, they live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their life. K: That's very very true. Anyway, so, Rekka any - R: Can an antagonist be the protagonist? K: No, those are mutually exclusive yeah. There's somebody who is not evil and they're the main character of the story, they're the protagonist. R: So they don't have a goatee or a mustache to twirl, and they're the main character, then they're the protagonist every time. K: Yes. The primary component for being the protagonist is that the story is about you, you're the principal character. If you are serving in an antagonistic role as the protagonist, you're still the protagonist, you're just a jerk. R: So when I get up and look in the mirror in the morning and I say, “Hey, butthead,” I'm still the protagonist of my life. K: You are both the protagonist and antagonist of your own life, yes. R: That feels accurate. K: [laughing] I think most of us are. R: Yeah. K: Well we said, a good example of an antagonist is the character themselves. R: Yep. Alright, I think I get it. K: We can always come back and talk more about it, because this one was fun to do some research on and get some thoughts together. R: So you would say that a book or a story plot requires an antagonist but doesn't necessarily require a villain. K: Yes, definitely. R: And the protagonist is completely optional. K: Yes, we're just gonna have a bunch of antagonists running around causing conflict for each other. Well, I think that's pretty much every murder mystery, so. R: So if it's a third person omniscient, and there is no main POV, we can have a book with no protagonist. Got it. K: I feel like you're trying to trick me into something but I don't know what. [laughing] R: I'm antagonizing you, I'm sorry. K: It's an important thing to do. R: As an editor you need to have your feathers ruffled every now and then. K: It creates conflict, and conflict creates growth. R: And plot. K: And plot. [laughing] But yeah thank you so much for listening everyone as always, hopefully this was helpful information, I know this was a lot of mincing of minute details, but - R: Yeah I mean maybe this was the episode you never knew you never wanted but - K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: - if there is an episode topic that you do know you want, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast, and you can also find us at patreon.com/WMBcast. And we'd love to hear your suggestions for topics or questions. If we have confused you in any way, then you can blame Kaelyn, and also let us know and we'll try to fix that. Thanks everyone! K: Thank you so much.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by Rekka) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: I love MacGuffins. R: Or weenies. I think we should start calling them "weenies" again. K: Go back to the original name. Yeah, it's funny because like, I think MacGuffin has like a negative connotation around it and I love it as a plot device where it's just like, there's this thing. And everyone wants it. In some cases we don't even really know what it does. There's like oh, the suitcase from pulp fiction. That's a great MacGuffin. R: That was going to be my example. K: In one of the Mission: Impossible movies, the one with Phillip Seymour Hoffman, you know, they're trying to get this, this thing from this guy. And Phillip Seymour Hoffman is this like the most terrifying crime lord in the world. And he can't get this thing. We literally never find out what it does, why they need to keep it out of his hands so badly and, and have it for themselves. But yeah we kinda conceived of this episode is talking about MacGuffin versus plot devices. So, let's be clear. All MacGuffins are plot devices, not all plot devices are MacGuffins. So as I always like to do a, you know, a little bit of history here, MacGuffin the terms often chalked up as being coined by, Alfred Hitchcock and his friend and screenwriter, MacPhail, but it actually goes back quite a bit before that there was an actress in the 1920s named of Pearl White, which I can only assume as a stage name. R: Her movies brought to you by Colgate. K: I genuinely hope that's a stage name. But she was in a lot of spy movies or action movies where everyone was chasing after something. And she was in so many of them that she started calling the items in question "weenies" because it didn't matter. And the, it was almost getting a little formulaic in her movies that it could have been, you know, like a roll of film, a document, a, a key that opens a certain, you know, safe or something. It really didn't matter what they were. It was just, you know, these suspense action inspired movies, everyone trying to chase down the same object. R: The reason that it doesn't matter is because no one actually ever really uses it. You just want to have it, right? K: Yeah. Yeah. It's frequently MacGuffin-related plots are resolved by "the real treasure was the friends we made along the way," which is one of the more infuriating endings. R: I like friends. K: Friends are great. Yeah. But like, okay. So I was going to get to this, to this later and the thing that, like one of my favorite examples of a MacGuffin that becomes un-MacGuffinned and is National Treasure That film is very rare in that they actually find and maintain hold of the treasure in the end of it, think of like, you know, like the Goonies or Pirates of the Caribbean, like Treasure Planet, they all find the treasure, but they don't really actually get to keep any of it. National Treasure really upended that by, by letting those characters not only find it, but then we find out how much money they got for it. R: And Disney's Atlantis. They did have the treasure at the end, too. K: That's true. R: They didn't tell anyone they had treasure. They just suddenly were all very wealthy. K: Yes, it was very good. So yeah, MacGuffins are by definition, it's a functionally meaningless interchangeable object whose only purpose is to drive the plot. The function of a MacGuffin is that there are characters or multiple groups of characters that want it, and they're all competing or outwitting or racing to get this object. R: The method by which it drives the plot. It creates the tension between different parties. K: Yes, exactly. Or it could be, you know, something like a treasure hunt where, you know, the MacGuffin is the treasure. So we know what its function is. It's going to make somebody rich, but it really is just there as an object to be desired. One of the fun things I learned while doing, you know, putting some notes together, researching this is it's generally accepted that one of the first MacGuffin in commonly accepted MacGuffin and literature was the holy grail, which is very common plot device for Arthurian legend. And then, you know, later tales where this is also treasure. Yes. It had religious significance, but therefore making it a worthwhile pursuit for these holy and sanctified nights. But yeah, it was functionally a MacGuffin because once you get the holy grail, what do you do with it? Well, it depends. If you're in an Indiana Jones movie or not, I know. The Arthurian knights were not not planning to make themselves immortal by that. They were planning to just get it and put it somewhere to look at it and go, it's the holy grail. Yay. So MacGuffins, like I said, it's got a negative connotation around it, I believe. And I do think that is that's very unfair. It's often treated like, well, it's just something that they had to put in there to get the characters, to act, to do something. And it's like, well, yeah, but that's a book. R: Yeah. You need a plot. K: That's how plot devices work. I think where MacGuffins get a bad rep so to speak is because they're meaningless and interchangeable. There are a lot of books, movies, TV shows where the MacGuffin is interchangeable. How many, you know, heist films have you watched where it's like, we need to get this thing in order to, you know, make this next step. And then it turns out that it's like, oh no, wait, things have changed. We need get this other thing. It doesn't have to be the same MacGuffin through the course of the story. They can change based on, you know, how the plot's moving or circumstances or the needs or wants of the characters. As I mentioned before, all MacGuffin are plot devices, not all plot devices are a MacGuffin. So that was kind of, you know, we wanted to talk a little bit about what a MacGuffin is and what it isn't thereby, what is a plot device and what its function is. K: Plot devices are basically a technique and narrative use to move the plot forward. It can be anything from, you know, characters and their actions to objects, to gifts of mysterious origins that we're not quite sure about. Now. It can be relationship, plot devices cover a lot of different things. One of them is MacGuffin. So, you know, saying like, well saying this object, it's just a plot device. Well, it might not be just a plot device. It might be a MacGuffin, but plot devices can be other things. Chekov's gun is of course a plot device. The Chekov's gun rule is if you're going to have a gun on the stage in the first act of a play, somebody needs to fire it in the third act of a play because otherwise it's just, you know, a decoration at that point. I don't like that. R: I don't think it's just that it's a decoration it's that your audience is going to wonder about it and that you don't want to distract or disappoint. K: If there's a play going on and there's a gun hanging on the wall and it's set in a hunting lodge that seems fairly normal. R: But for example, if I see somebody in a movie, pick a rifle out of their nightstand and tuck it into their belt, I know that, you know, something's going to escalate. K: Yeah, exactly. Or at least we're, we should be reading into that. Character is planning for there to be some kind of a conflict or a scenario in which they may need to defend themselves. Right. But let's talk a little bit about pot devices. As I mentioned, they're things that are intended to move the plot along. There's an endless list of things that are plot devices. And as I said, these can be anything from relationships. Like a love triangle is a frequently as plot device. Definitely one of my least favorites. First of all, they're very rarely actually triangles. They're more like two lines converging on a single point in order for there to be a triangle, all three people involved need to be having— R: So is the object of the other two's interest a MacGuffin? K: Could be, I've talked endlessly about what a ridiculous character Bella from Twilight is. And I mean, she's, she's borderline a MacGuffin. Like really, you know what, God, that's a really good thought experiment. I'm going to have to like find some kind of a summary now and go, go through this and see if like Bella is actually a MacGuffin. R: If the character themself doesn't have any agency, like the damsel in distress that you don't even see until you storm the castle in the third act. K: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we'll get to things that can be MacGuffin that you might not think would be a MacGuffin. So one of them that I actually stumbled across that I didn't think about as a plot device is the Deus ex Machina. So Deus ex Machina it's was a commonly used plot device, especially in Greek comedies and tragedies, primarily tragedies, I suppose where an improbable event is used to resolve everything and bring the story to a conclusion, usually a happy conclusion, fun fact about the Deus ex Machina, of course, you know, it's the Latin for "God in the machine." it was because that's because in a lot of great tragedies and plays, they'd have this mechanism by which an actor portraying a God was lowered into the stage, does god things, you know, changes whatever's happening, and then that's the end of the story. So God in the machine was what was coined for that. This one I will say generally is something that writers are encouraged to avoid. It's it's not great storytelling. Like if, you know, you're lining up for the big conflict and everyone's squared off and waiting to see what happens. And then an earthquake happens and kills everyone... R: Yeah. You know, the earthquake, wasn't something that had been foreshadowed or anything like that. It's kinda like the "Oh, and I woke up and it was all a dream." K: I always say like the T-Rex at the end of the first Jurassic Park movie. R: Just shows up and chomps. K: Just shows up and is like "Raptors! Mmm!" R: A lot of people were pretty satisfied by the T-Rex if, if it had been T-Rexes in the tragedies, we could've had a whole new view of the Deus ex Machina. K: Yeah. It was a, it was a very satisfying ending and it was certainly a "whoa, holy crap. Like, yeah, I forgot. There's also huge dinosaurs running around here. Right." R: And again, so like that was foreshadowed. It was Chekov's T-Rex for your T-Rex Machina. K: It is a little bit of an ex Machina because first of all, the last time we saw the T-Rex, it was very far from the visitor center. And also no one can explain to me how it got in there. So, but you know. It's fine. R: Hey, look. If you really want to nitpick Jurassic Park, let's just talk about how the Jeep fell into the T-Rex enclosure. They did not get to a fence. And yet there were brachiosaurs. Why were they in the T-Rex enclosure? K: I thought they were outside the T-Rex enclosure along a cliff. R: I didn't see a fence. K: The geography of this is, is definitely slightly slightly suspect. But also a plot device, the T-Rex in this is, you know, serving as, as a plot device, in that it is forcing the characters to act and make decisions really. We all know that if they just sat quietly in the cars, the movie would have been a lot different. R: But the MacGuffin of Jurassic Park would be the dinosaur DNA. K: Yes. in one aspect of the plot, definitely, the Nedry plot. I would argue that that is much more relevant to everything, but like, it is a weird little side plot where this chain of events gets kicked off because of yes, the dinosaur DNA, which is not meaningful for the story. Is it interchangeable? I don't know. I would say no on that, but it definitely, for that particular part of the plot serves as a MacGuffin. K: One of the examples I always use that, you know, people point to and say is a MacGuffin, but is absolutely not, is the one ring from Lord of the Rings. It's not an interchangeable object there, isn't another, you know, another thing that they could go take and throw into this volcano, the only reason they're going to throw in this ring into Mount Doom is because it has to be that specific ring. And it has to be thrown into Mount Doom. We lose the whole story of the one ring corrupting and torturing everybody that's holding it. You know, we lose the the character development that comes from the people who have to carry this ring and what it does to them. So that's one we're, you know, I see like people saying like, oh yeah, and the one ring, the MacGuffin. Like it's not, that is not a MacGuffin. It is a plot device, but it is not a MacGuffin. R: Right. It's an object that everybody wants, but it is a carefully crafted object in terms of the story that is the foundation of the story itself. K: Yeah. The one ring, I would say, even goes so far as to serve as a theme in that story, essentially. One of my favorite plot devices is a plot coupons. Rekka also loves these. R: Like you need the blue key card and then come back with the blue key card. And then, you know, you can open this blue locked door. The idea that you need this thing before the story can go any further and it has to be this thing. But that thing is not going to come around later. It's not like that key will open another door later. It will open this one door that we need to progress, but there's probably going to be another door later. K: And again, this is not a MacGuffin because it's not interchangeable. You need that specific key. The other way to sort of integrate plot coupons into your story is there's a certain number of objects you need to collect in order to get something else. My favorite one of these is Dragon Ball. You want to summon the dragon. I believe his name was Shen. You have to collect all seven dragon balls to do that. So the story is being driven by the quest to find all of these, some in the dragon and then summoning the dragon from there typically drives the plot forward even more. It's very rarely goes the way you want it to when you're collecting, collecting things for a larger thing. It's not like a carnival where you get enough tickets, you get the giant teddy bear and then you go home. That teddy bear might kill you. Yeah. Similarly to, to plot coupons is a plot voucher which is something that a character is given or, you know, picks up on a whim or just, you know, is particularly entranced by and goes, I'm going to take this object. And then it turns out to be incredibly useful or life-saving, or exactly the thing that they needed or didn't realize the value of it. Something like that. R: This is frequently a Star Trek: The Next Generation thing where Wesley is working on this school project and that school project saves the planet later when he connects it to the war coils. K: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. it's a very common thing in especially fantasy because you know, it's this there's a lot of concepts of hidden and mysterious objects where something that you have, you don't realize that's what it is the whole time you have it. And then suddenly it's magically revealed at the end. One of my favorites. I don't know if anyone listening to this or Rekka, I feel like you may have read like the, you know, the subsequent Wizard of Oz books. R: I have not read the sequels. K: Oh really? Okay. Yeah, and um R: I always meant to, but I just never got around to it. K: They're good. They're good. I got, I got really into them and I believe it's, is it in the second book? I can't remember. And one of them were Dorothy returns to Oz and they're trying to, you know, so Oz is now without a leader and she goes off on this whole quest with this boy that she finds who he's an orphan. And he doesn't have a lot of memories from when he was younger and they go in this whole thing and they're trying R: Well that sounds like a missing king. K: Better. It's a missing queen. Because they finally turn— their whole thing is they're trying to track down this witch who may know where the heir Ozma is. And they finally confront her and she tearfully breaks down and points to the boy and says, "I turned her into a boy." Dorothy's had the queen with her the whole time and didn't realize it. So yeah, that's a, you know, that's a good, I'm not sure that really fits the plot voucher, but I'm going to say that it does, because Dorothy does go out of her way to have this boy accompany her. I think the boy's name is Pip because of course it would be. You know, somebody who on a whim picks up like a bulletproof vest or has given a bullet professed and then get shot later. Or you know, there's always like the little meek character that they give like a knife or a gun to, and say here, hold this just in case. K: And then the main character is getting strangled to death and they use it. Those are plot vouchers. Another one— and then I promise I'll stop going through plot devices here, but I, I always enjoy this—is a good red herring. Very common in murder mysteries and thriller stories and even a spy novels. You know, this is trying to divert the audience of the reader's attention away from something and draw it to something else. You know, I mentioned murder mystery. So like this would be like, you know, the whole family's gathered for dinner and the grandmother suddenly dies. And the doctor of the family declare she's been poisoned, and who would have the motive for doing this? And while you, the reader trying to sort through all of this, there becomes a character who it's to you very clear has the best motives, the best opportunity and everything. But in the case of that, being a red herring, what it's doing is it's distracting you from something that's happening in the background, where there is actually a better candidate to be the murderer, but the author doesn't want you to know that yet. Red herrings are frequently used for another plot device, which is of course the plot twist, right? Very difficult to have a plot twist without a series of very well laid out red herrings. Yeah. R: And you have to be very balanced in how you use them. So you don't tip off that they are red herrings. Like they can't be so overtly obvious, although in certain genres they are tropes and people want the red herring and they want to be the smart one who figures out who the actual killer is before the detective realizes they are after the wrong person or whatever. K: Red herrings can actually be used within the book as well. Something that the you know, antagonist of the story does, to deliberately mislead our band of noble heroes and send them off on a wild goose chase so they can continue their nefarious plans undeterred, would be a red herring used within the context of the story. That's I hope kind of a good, "This is a plot device. This is a MacGuffin," but one thing I did want to touch on was things that can be MacGuffins, but don't seem like they would be MacGuffins. Because as we mentioned, MacGuffin is need to be, you know, functionally meaningless interchangeable and lacking agency. And these don't necessarily seem like things that would check off those boxes R: Just by their inherent nature. You're going to say people as your first one. So like you would see a character and you're going to think they're going to act with some agency. They're going to try to manipulate the world around them to get what they want. But sometimes... K: Sometimes they're just MacGuffins. You know, I mentioned, I am going to go back and try to figure this out. If Bella from Twilight is actually just a MacGuffin. My— I'm going to say in some books, yes. For staggeringly, large parts of the book. Baby Yoda is a MacGuffin for a really long time in the Mandalorian. Yes, it's a sentient functioning creature that in some cases does interact with and change the environment, but he really doesn't have a lot of agency. He's just sort of, kind of getting carted around by, by the Mandalorian. R: He wants to eat amphibians. K: He wants to eat amphibians and their eggs. And everybody wants him. Everyone is trying to get this child that—the viewer see some examples of his power early on, but most of the people trying to get him don't realize that. And even, you know, up to the very end, if not like at the, you know, the end of the story so far, he's suddenly become a very involved, interactive character, altering and changing the world around him. He's still, he's an object that's handed off. R: Right. Although technically by sending the Jedi signal homing signal, yes, he does get used. So therefore—. K: Yes, he becomes a plot device at that point. R: He is no longer a MacGuffin, but yeah, for most of the season, he is. K: He's kind of a Deus ex Machina there. R: Well, okay. Is he the Deus ex Machina or is Luke showing up to take him away the Deus ex Machina? K: Spoilers for Mandalorian season two, which— R: If you care, you already know. K: Yeah, Exactly. No, I would say he's the Deus ex Machina because by that point, Luke is a function of him. He only shows up for him. Okay. He's not a MacGuffin because he's not interchangeable if you know, Han Solo showed up that wouldn't have been very helpful for everyone. I mean, you know, extra gun, I guess, but Luke's the one we really needed in that situation, but yeah. And you see this you see this a lot in video games, like the escort quests, where, you know, you just have like some silly character that keeps trying to like run into dangerous situations and you have to prevent them from doing it. That's, they're serving as a MacGuffin at that point. You know, Rekka made the example of like the damsel in distress. People can be MacGuffins for a time and then change into plot devices or then even characters. R: Okay. But when you are looking over somebody or something from a story, how do you say here's where they change? And that changes them like before they weren't a plot device? K: Where, where is the crossover? R: Well, like when you're, when you're saying like, yes, that's a MacGuffin or yes, that's a plot device. Like if, as a plot device that meant that later they did something. So then were they ever a MacGuffin? K: Yes. MacGuffins do not have to stay MacGuffins. Hmm. You can graduate from MacGuffin to plot device and plot device to character. That's what typically is going to take a person from a MacGuffin to, you know, being part of the story, be it as a character or a plot device is them acting either on their own behalf or on the behalf of the people that were basically treating them as a MacGuffin at that point. Some of the common tropes with this is them suddenly gaining a power of some kind, you know, maybe this was like this you know, child princess that needed to be escorted across the galaxy. So she could go back and claim her throne. But basically we just had to keep her hidden and locked away and make sure, you know, people keep attacking the ship and trying to stop us from getting her home. K: But then she touches a crystal that she shouldn't have. And now she's going to get them all safely home she's then, you know, not a MacGuffin at that point, she is, you know, a character or maybe on some level, a plot device, usually in order for a person to be a true MacGuffin, they have to be completely helpless: babies, children that can't take care of themselves or, oh, here's a good one. Macguffins that will—like I mentioned with Ozma in, you know, the Wizard of Oz sequel books—MacGuffins that you didn't realize were with you the whole time. And they transform into something that transcends being a MacGuffin. You know, they were cursed to just be this rock. And for some reason, someone's got the rock with them the whole time and it's a MacGuffin, but then it's, you know, we broke the curse and it's actually a person. R: Or in science fiction, you might have somebody that's like in stasis, in cryo, and you don't know why you're transporting them or why everyone keeps attacking your ship to get them or something. K: Macguffins aren't static. They don't always have to stay MacGuffin. A good example of a MacGuffin that does not stay MacGuffin is an egg, anytime, you know, there's a, a precious egg or something similar that we have to, you know, be transporting and getting to wherever it needs to hatch or something. And then it hatches probably dragons are a really good example or trope here. And then it actually hatches and turns into a dragon. Well, that dragon is not a MacGuffin because it's a dragon. R: And at the very least it changes the plot by being a hungry, now-alive thing. K: Very much so, very much. So other things that can be MacGuffins. We talked about interchangeable objects a little bit, you know, the MacGuffin does not have to be the static standard object to the whole time. It can change. It can be, you know, it's whatever the character or characters desire or need at that moment. R: It could be a relay race of MacGuffins. K: Exactly. Really, honestly it could. It really could. And then the other one that I had made a note of here is a place. So, you know, we think of the MacGuffin as an object that you're trying to hold, but it can also be a place that you're trying to get to that is, you know, maybe not, we're not sure if it's real, if it's a fabled, you know, legendary location El Dorado is a good example of that. A lot of, a lot of treasure seeking-based stories have places that sort of serve as MacGuffins. And to the clear, the treasure being a MacGuffin and the place being a MacGuffin are two different things, because the treasure—like I'll go back to National Treasure—Um they very explicitly stayed in that, that it's been moved around a lot. So they're not trying to find a specific place. They are trying to find a specific thing. They just don't know where it is. R: And once they get it, they're going to remove it from that place. K: Yes. A MacGuffin that is a place is a specific spot that you've got to get to. Maybe it's a sacred temple where you could only perform this specific resurrection spell, or maybe it's a city made entirely of gold or like Treasure Planet was a good one because you had to get to that specific planet and that specific place on the planet in order to, you know, find and access all of this treasure. R: Or in the Mummy Returns, when they are trying to release the scorpion bracelet from their son's wrist, they have to go to this temple specifically to do that. K: Yeah. So places can be a little tricky. They, they verge a little bit more on, on plot devices, but there are definitely a place can serve as a MacGuffin, especially if it's like a legendary one that nobody can really prove exists. K: By the way, if there's a lot to read on a MacGuffin is out there and you know, why they're, they're really not actually a bad, a bad thing. But conflating them, you know, conflating all plot devices and saying it's a MacGuffin is not actually accurate. K: Because plot devices are a lot more dynamic than MacGuffins. And there's a lot of different types and how they can be replied. Plot devices are a writing technique. Macguffins are a component of the writing technique. So anyway, I like a good MacGuffin. I think they're a lot of fun. And I think plot devices can be really helpful for, for writing. Again, it's something that like, there are these things that I think like they just exist. They're things that we have and things we have to, you know, have in our stories, but we talk about them very dismissively for some reason. I'm never quite sure why that is. R: I think a lot of the dismissiveness comes from people who have more of a literary mind with regard to their storytelling. K: Possibly. R: So that either they are dismissive of genre fiction entirely, or they feel like it's their duty to elevate genre fiction by eliminating tropes, which would then eliminate the genre. K: Yeah. R: Um yeah, I think that that's the perception I get anyway from the discourse I see about these things, but yeah. I definitely got the impression as a, you know, emerging writer that MacGuffins, were a bad thing. But you know, as we pointed out, there's a lot of people's favorite movies, favorite stories, favorite movies, favorite plays that are just chock full of MacGuffins. K: All of the Indiana Jones, R: Pretty much, yeah. This belongs in a museum because it can just go behind glass and stay there. But in the meantime, let's fight over it. K: They Ark of the Covenant by the way, is one of my favorite MacGuffins: the Instakill MacGuffin. By the way, this is a trope is the MacGuffin that you get. And you're finally like, "Haha I have the thing." And then it kills everyone. R: The MacGuffin that you should not mess with. K: Yes. I like MacGuffins. R: Macguffins are good. And if the advice is, "I don't know what to do in the scene," "make something blow up." Like why not use a MacGuffin to keep your plot moving forward? K: Yeah. R: There's definitely a draw in like wanting an object. People can understand multiple people wanting the same object. This is the nature of humanity. So it's something we can identify quickly and relate to and understand without spending a whole bunch of time on it. K: If you just exist in your life, you're going to come across a lot of MacGuffins. My current MacGuffin is I really want a bagel. R: But it has to be a New York bagel. So it's not just a MacGuffin. K: It has to be the everything bagel with scallion cream cheese from the place around the corner from me. And the thing is, I don't have time to go get it right now, but I really want it. And for my life, it is functionally meaningless and interchangeable, because I could very easily just go get some toast out of the fridge and that will nourish and satiate me. But it's not the thing that I desire. R: But it's not. Yeah. It's not going to satisfy you. It's just going to feed you. K: Yes, exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, I think that's MacGuffins. Thank you so much, everyone for listening. R: And we'll be back with something else that we have opinions on in two weeks. K: We have a lot of opinions. R: Thanks, everyone.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Glitter + Ashes edited by dave ring Silk & Steel edited by Janine A. Southard  Grace's Links: Website ArtStation portfolio Twitter Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Today we are talking to Grace Fong about book art. Now we've had someone on in the past to talk about cover art and art-directing a commissioned cover. However, I think Colin would forgive me for saying that you do not want Colin to do the artwork. Kaelyn: He would, yes. R: Yes. [laughing] Would you like to introduce yourself? Grace: Hi, I'm Grace! My pronouns are she/her, I work on the narrative design team over at Wizards of the Coast for Magic: The Gathering. I am also a sometimes-writer, and for the past five years I've been doing illustration work for various speculative fiction magazines, such as Strange Horizons, and some anthologies like Silk & Steel and Glitter + Ashes. K: Rekka this is our first like, real artist. R: It is difficult to get an artist on a podcast. I have tried - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - for this podcast and the previous one and it is a tricky business. So Grace, you live up to your name in showing up. G [laughing]: We don't like talking to people, we just like sitting at our computers. R: I completely understand, but doesn't mean I'm gonna give up trying, so. We've finally done it. K: Awesome. So I have been involved in some cover art not as the primary person but as the editor, where I have to look at it and go ‘yeah okay that kinda tracks with what's happening here.' We have talked a lot on this podcast before about what to expect out of your cover art, and how involved the writers are going to be in it, and the answer is typically not very, at all. So, when you're doing this, who is it that you're primarily working with? G: When I do work for magazines and books I'm usually working with the editor of the publication, so for the anthology it's usually an anthology editor, or for a short fiction magazine it is usually the art director of the magazine or the editor of the magazine. K: Can you walk us through the process of how you get started on this? They're obviously not coming to you with a blank slate, they're coming to you with a series of stories that may or may not have a theme. How do you get started working with this editor? G: It really varies, depending on the type of publication. So for anthologies, because they cover a lot of different narrative ground, usually we try to come up with an image that encapsulates the theme of the anthology. Like for Silk & Steel, I was doing one of the promotional postcards for them. We knew we were doing femme-femme, high fantasy, sword-and-scorcery kind of stuff. So I knew that those characters would have to be reflective of the book's content. Sometimes editors will give me a particular story that they aim to showcase for the publication, in which case I'll usually read the story if it's under 6,000 words, and try and come up with a composition that fits it the best that I possibly can. This is how I work with Strange Horizons. K: At what point do you usually come into the process? Are you typically involved right from the get go, or do they kind of wait until they have most of the story material? G: Usually when editors are doing their selections, they will wait until they have the written content first, because the written content is gonna dictate which artist they're gonna go to, to look for. Whose style best captures the feeling of their product? It's actually similar to traditional publication as well. The art directors at major publishing houses usually have a manuscript or summary for new debut authors whose manuscripts are already completed, and then they find an artist based off the existing manuscript. Some covers are completed beforehand, if the publishing house knows the author, knows the brand of that author and knows the kind of proposal or piece they are in the middle of working. K: You're gonna be sitting down with the editor, they're gonna give you a story that they particularly wanna feature, they're gonna give you an overall feeling or theme or - how much creative license do you get? R: I wanna interrupt because you just skipped like a really huge part: the creative brief. K: Yes. R: So what you just said, they're gonna give you a mood, they're gonna give you a theme or whatever, this is a whole step. Don't smooth it over like that. And this is something that actually Grace's got a little bit of a reputation for her knowledge on. So Grace I know you in, I believe it's November, are doing the Clarion workshop about creating a brief for a cover artist, right? G: Yes. R: So let's give this the spotlight it deserves! [laughing] G [overlapping]: Okay. K: Yeah, I've written a couple, I shouldn't have skipped over that, so apologies. G: I mean it's a specialized skill not everyone has to do them, so yeah. R: Well I definitely want to highlight it a bit, ‘cause you helped me with one - G [laughing]: That's true! R: What goes into the creative brief? Kaelyn named a couple of things, and this sort of forms the silhouette around which Kaelyn's question pivots, which is how much creative control do you get as an artist? So what's in the brief that you consider sacred, and what's in the gaps that you get to play with? G: So, that - K: Well first, and I'm sorry to cut you off - I'm sorry - can we say what - [laughing] R [overlapping]: I'm gonna interrupt you back! K: That's fair, that's fair. Can we kind of say what a creative brief is? G: Oh yeah, sure. So essentially when you are starting to work with an artist, an artist does not have the time to read an entire manuscript of 400+ pages. Their pricing is usually based off of the time that they're gonna spend creating your artwork. So you need to provide them with what is known as a creative brief, or art brief. And these are small documents that are very instructional, no more than like a page or two long, that explains the kind of image and feel that you are going for, for this assignment. The assumption is that you would have done your research and sent this brief to an artist that you think would do a good job for the publication that you're sourcing art for. So you're not gonna go to someone who does only black and white work if you want to sell your book with a big, bright, neon, 80s kind of cover. G: ‘Brief' is kind of the keyword here. You're essentially writing instructions for an artist. Don't try to lead them in using prose writing, tell them what they're gonna be drawing. It's a bit like a recipe list. So if it's a story about vampires and you want your vampire main character on the cover, you would specify that that's what you're looking for. Or, let's say you're trying to sell more literary up-market fiction, which doesn't use as many figurative images. Then you would maybe make an explanation about like ‘oh this book is about a woman's time when she was living as a child in Philadelphia.' In which case you would sometimes kind of refine that into a visual or item metaphor that you would ask the artist to render in a specific way that captures the mood and feel of the book, and leverages the imagery that's common to that market, so that it can reach the correct audience. K: Gotcha. Okay. So then you're gonna get this brief, and presumably dig into it. Do you ever receive a section of text, if there's a scene in particular that they'd like illustrated? G: Specific scene commissions tend not to be used for covers, because they're not very good at selling a publication. Scene work tends to be done for interior illustration. So these the the images that go along in the story; you look at these images as you are reading these scenes. But for the front cover you're trying to provide one image that sells the entire mood of the story to a particular audience. So in general you want to avoid using specific scenes, unless that scene comes in very early, because you don't wanna spoil the ending of the book. You only have one picture to play with for a cover, meanwhile with interiors you tend to have a series. You can do like a chapter header, like in the original Harry Potter American versions. K: It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about how I remember when the Harry Potter books were coming out, and there were always the American and the British cover versions, and everyone would be over-analyzing and try to pick apart ‘okay what's in the background here, what's happening in this scene.' But yeah because those covers were all more or less specific scenes from the book. They were a little abstract. G: Exactly, but it's - the keyword as you just said it is that they were scenes but they were abstracted. Actually tapping into that same visual metaphor that I mentioned earlier, for literary up-market, it's just because they're cramming so many things - what they're actually doing is creating one image that forces you to look harder at it to find all of those metaphorical connections with the story inside. If it has the hippogriff on it and the Chamber of Secrets journal and the Goblet of Fire, these are all singular items that you don't actually see in those covers how they relate to the story, but you know that this is an important item in the story. Ergo, which Harry Potter volume this cover revolves around. K: Do you get scenarios where somebody says ‘I want you to draw exactly this and I want it to look like this,' or do you generally give them a few different ideas or rough sketches and then go from there? G: Generally the things that I like to have control over are color palette, camera angle, the stuff that would be considered very technical for an illustration. Perspective. Whether things are shot from above, shot from below, because these are all illustrator tools that help dictate the mood of a painting. And the mood is actually the thing that I usually ask my clientele for. Mood translates to ‘how are we supposed to feel when looking at this?' Because feeling is very closely tied to genre. G: So, what kind of book am I trying to sell? Is it a horror book? That dictates what kind of colors, what kind of camera angles that I'm going to use. But if somebody tells me ‘I want a top-down shot of something-something,' then that feels a bit invasive to me because I feel like if I am an artist then I can select the camera angle to best convey the drama that you're asking for. But the things that are really good for me are the object or character or focus, and if there is a character the kind of action that is being performed. A lot of times we get character description but no action, and the action is actually what tells us what the character is like, and separates it from the design. K: Yeah so you don't just have two characters just standing there looking straight forward at the camera - G [overlapping]: Yeah. K: - dressed the way they told you to dress them. G: Yes. [laughing] Because basically that would be really difficult to create an interesting illustration for. K: Absolutely yeah. [laughing] G: It's kind of like going to the mall and you see the clothes being sold on mannequins. Like it helps sell you the clothes but it doesn't tell you what the story is behind the people wearing the clothes. It helps to have stuff like props, backgrounds, and actions to help convey like, ‘oh yeah if this character is wearing a t-shirt and jeans, is this t-shirt and jeans part of an urban fantasy? Or is it a part of a YA contemporary romance?' K: How much back-and-forth do you generally have with the editors you're working with? Like what is the first thing you give back to them? G: This generally varies per artist, including the artists I work with. So usually what I do is between one to three thumbnails or sketches that I hand in to the editor and ask them ‘what do you think of these directions,' ‘which one of these thumbnails' - which I then proceed to refine - ‘do you think hits the target best?' Then if it's a very large piece of work I might work on a more refined sketch and pass it in, or like base colors and pass it in, and minimally it's usually the thumbnails plus the finished drawing. So that's two to five back-and-forths, depending on the size of the piece. R: How much do you let the art director or editor you're working with go back to the start? I know you probably don't let them past a certain point, like ok you approved the thumbnail so we're moving forward, we're not going back to thumbnails after that, but what if they don't like any of the initial thumbnails? G: Yeah so basically most artists I know have what are called revision fees, and these are generally written into the contracts that you sign upon working with them. Basically saying ‘you get this many thumbnails, you get to give comments this many times, and if you go over those times there'll be an additional fee.' Because artists are basically charging - it's a service-based industry, and your haircutter charges you per hour, and so does your artist. And generally if they aren't happy with the thumbnails, then I would then incur the revision fee, but also I ask for further information. G: So, if you as a writer or editor aren't happy with what your artist is turning back, you need to be able to explain what you're not happy with. So you can explain like ‘oh I don't think this color palette is appropriate for this target market. Here are some images of other books that have come out in the same area that we think would be good inspiration for you.' The only time that revision becomes really frustrating, outside of a timing frame, is when your client says ‘I don't know what I want but I'll know it when I see it.' R: I knew you were gonna say that. [giggling] As a graphic designer I also hate those words. G [laughing]: Yeah. K: It's like okay I guess I'll just keep throwing paint at the wall and see what happens. G: Like revisions aren't bad as long as the client is able to convey what needs to actually be changed. R: Not a series of no-thank-yous. K: Have you ever come across a scenario where you've kind of had to take a step back from the project and say ‘listen, I think maybe I'm not the right person to do this.' G: Usually I'm good enough at heading that off before a project even begins. K [laughing]: Okay! G: That is something you come to with experience, you understand your style, your way of working as an illustrator, and knowing like ‘hey this type of thing is going to be too out of my ballpark,' ‘this type of thing is not gonna pay enough,' ‘this type of thing is just too much work for what I'm capable of doing right now.' That is kind of like you're responsible, as most freelance artists are independent business owners essentially. They'll usually say so up front minus extenuating circumstances. Like at work we've had people drop out because they acquired COVID in the middle of an assignment, so - K [overlapping]: Oh god. G: - there's really nothing you can do about that. [laughing] K [laughing]: Yeah. Have you ever been presented with a commission, talked to the person, and thought to yourself ‘I don't think they have a good enough handle on what it is they're looking for here, and this may just end up being a headache'? G: Yes. That has definitely happened before, ‘cause I don't have much time. So if I feel like the client either lacks the direction and communication to give me what I need, or if they're simply asking for too much, then I will usually politely decline them, within the first couple of emails. K: Obviously you're not reading all of these books and you're working off the creative brief. Is there anything in particular that you get these, you're trying to make sure you're communicating in the feel of the book rather than an exact representation of what's going on there? G: Yeah. So I'm not trying to recreate a 1-to-1 specific moment from the book. I'm trying to generate a piece that, as you said, evokes a major theme. A lot of times I'm asked to do character work, mostly because that is something that I enjoy doing and specialize in; I love character and costume design. Like you've never seen a spaceship in my portfolio because I'm really bad at it. K: I looked through it, I didn't see one. [laughing] G: Yeah, don't put stuff in your portfolio that you are not good at painting and don't wanna paint. Like people come to me because they're like ‘oh this person does kind of anime-inspired fantasy characters,' and so that's kind of like a niche that you can reach other people who like anime-inspired fantasy characters. So things for me that I consider important is, I like to know a character's build and ethnicity. G: Stuff like ‘oh the character's mouth is a Cupid's bow' or like ‘they have eyebrows that are waxed to a certain angle,' that's a bit too specific. Or like ‘they wear ten rings.' Because if you mentioned that the character wears ten rings, it automatically makes those ten rings really important. And you have to wonder, are those ten rings really important to actually selling who this character is? Do those ten rings have a narrative function in the story? If so, do you wanna include the rest of the character, or do you wanna focus on that character's hands and the rings, as a way to say ‘hey this is what this story is about'? Because it's very hard to include such a small item and such a big item together on the same image. There's a lot of physical limitations to representational art; similar as it is, it's really challenging to get a photo with both your shortest friend and your tallest friend at the same time and not have a giant gap between them. [laughing] K [laughing]: Lot of negative space and awkward positions. G: Yeah. R: Well this is where your control over the perspective comes in, right? So that would be a shot from below. K: Or above! Really above. [laughing] G: Yeah. So one of the things that I like to ask for is no more than two or three key items, I would call them, that differentiate who this character is from all the other characters. Like you can say ‘yes, she is a Black woman' or ‘yes, he is a muscular man of European descent.' But Aragorn is defined by Andúril, his sword. Once you stick that sword on Aragorn, you know ‘hey this is a high-fantasy Tolkienesque property.' So I'm looking for a handful of items like that, to help show who this character is and how they differentiate and help sell the genre, setting, and time period. K: Covers are telling people things without explicitly telling them that. Like you mentioned you give Aragorn his sword or a similar character, you're stating ‘hey this is a high-fantasy book.' If there's a background in it and it's castles built into rolling mountains, that's also indicating things to somebody who might be potentially interested in reading it. Do you spend a lot of time or give a lot of attention to trying to signal to potential readers that this might be something they're interested in, or do you kind of let the cover do what it's gonna do? Like how much do you try to work elements into it that are telling you things about the book without telling you things about the book? G: I usually try to focus on having as I said up to three of those key items - K [overlapping] Okay. [laughing] G: - because, as you said, castles are really common in a lot of European-based high fantasy. So you can leverage that castle, change it up, be like oh is it a floating castle that implies that there's a certain kind of magic? Is it a castle that's built into a hillside that implies another sort of magic? And so when I'm doing that I'm not necessarily looking at other pieces that are within the same genre, because the same genre-ness comes from the castle itself. I'm trying not to make a cover that looks exactly like every other cover out there, because this writing is probably not like every other fantasy story out there. K: Mhm. G: I'm actually specifically looking for those key items that differentiate it within its own genre. K: Any good stories, or interesting things that've happened here, your favorite piece that you've worked on or something that was particularly challenging? Maybe not just cover art but any commissions in general? G: All of my really funny stories are actually just from when I was doing random stuff for anime cons. I've had to draw a woman making out with Loki, but the woman is not herself, the woman is Kate Beckinsale. Fandom's strange. R: So you drew Kate Beckinsale making out - K [overlapping]: Making out with Loki - [laughing] G: Yes. R: And let the woman believe it was her? G: There are certain things you simply cannot draw. You cannot draw the flow of time. If you have a single image, it is very difficult to have anything that goes from step one and step two. [chuckling] And convey two images in a single image. K: Those Animorphs covers used to do that. G: That's true. And they had the little flipbooks in the back. K [laughing]: Remember that? G: Yeah. K: What advice would you have for somebody who, like let's say they're going to self-publish, or maybe somebody who hasn't really done this before but is looking to commission a piece of art - what advice would you have for them? G: For prospective clients, I generally ask that they do their research beforehand, essentially. Like working with artists, we have our own system, our own language, essentially, for technical stuff, for our materials, our use of camera angles, our use of colors. And to kind of understand what is within and without our control. So don't expect an art piece to be able to capture your entire story, because your story has some form of linear time in it, which art inherently will not if it's a single image. And that usually requires a lot of trust on the part of new authors, because this is their baby, right, they spent a lot of time on it and they wanna give it nice clothes. K: I love that by the way - G [overlapping]: [laughing] K: - they wanna give it nice clothes, that's perfect. [laughing] G: And like, a lot of us really understand this, but it's really helpful for us if you are to distinguish things that are and are not concrete. If you have a story that's based on music and you want your cover to celebrate the fact that it revolves around song, artists cannot draw a song. Unless you have synesthesia, you're probably not gonna look at a piece of artwork and hear music. So you're gonna have to come up with concrete visuals to convey this. G: So that main character, how do they produce this music? Are they a violinist? In which case yes, a violin can be drawn, that's very clear, very easy. And so just coming up with those small as I say key items, that would probably be one of them. Coming prepared with those and trusting the artist to interpret that - you can always say ‘hey, my book is about song, that is why I'd like to include these items,' but don't throw them into the wind with ‘my book is about songs' and - K: ‘Draw me a song.' G: Yes. K: You had mentioned revision fees, now again a constant theme in this podcast is contracts and read your contract and check your contract. Typically if you're going to engage an artist they're going to sign a contract with you. By the way, if the artist is not interested in signing a contract with you, and this is a custom piece, maybe that's not the artist to work with. But you're going to have a fee schedule, you're going to say ‘okay up front this is how much I'm estimating this to be but there are additional fees and costs for revisions, for changes, for going back.' K: We've definitely had to, with artists we commissioned for covers, go back and say ‘hey listen, something came up and we need another version of this, can you tweak these things?' And that's fine, it's just an additional charge. Is there anything in particular you would say to the people who are looking to commission an artist to just be aware of and expect, so they're not 1) shocked or 2) completely overlook something, in terms of costs associated with this kind of thing. G: Art is skilled labor. K: Absolutely. G: It's gonna vary per artist. Some people work faster, some people work slower. The type of publication is also going to affect the cost. But do not be surprised if an artist asks for a living wage, in terms of hourly money, because this is what they do; it's generally not a side job. K: Art is a skilled work that needs to be paid accordingly. There's a reason you're having to go out and find somebody you need to do this, because it's not an easy thing to do. G: Yeah, you're gonna be looking at prices significantly over part-time retail, because this is full-time work. Artists pay taxes on top of their stuff, and they are in charge of maintaining their own tax books. The high prices also cover their cost of living, the materials, 30% of it automatically goes to taxes, so those rates are going to be relatively high. A lot higher than I think what people expect. I feel like sometimes when people are new to commissioning, they'll expect it to be something in the price range of like ‘hey, I'm asking someone to in their off-time help me out at home with this, etcetera, or babysit my cat.' R: They wanna pay you 20 bucks and an extra pizza. G: Yeah. K: Well they're looking at it in like hourly rates, not realizing that it's not just hourly. Like you said there's taxes, there's material, there's - you don't get something then immediately sit down and start drawing it, you have to read some things, you have to think about it, you have to process, there's a lot of invisible hours that go into this as well. G: Yeah. R: You might spend - random number - 12 hours working on a cover, but that skill that you developed to create that cover is not 12 hours worth of skill-development, that is the lifetime that you have put into being an artist. So if anybody is thinking that ‘well the cover for my book is just a box I need to check off on my way to publication' - G: Yeah and that high hourly rate encompasses the work of emailing back and forth and sending the revisions and all the administrative stuff that the artist has to do. Artists generally do not have assistant teams, and they are not big publishing houses. K: The phone call was two minutes, it took me five minutes to read this thing, and ten minutes to write a response, but all of the stuff in between is additional time. All of your back-and-forth with your artist, all of the discussion that you're gonna have, all of the time that you the artist have to sit and think about this and do some sketches and stop and walk away and collect your thoughts, all of that is your valuable time. R: We've been talking about hourly rates. But every time, in my personal experience, that I've commissioned a cover, I have been given a flat number and then the contract as we've discussed talks about how many revisions or whatever are included in that number. I assume this is the practice of this person doing covers so frequently that they have a general ballpark of what they need to earn to justify what a cover is. But that's still based on a living wage that they're creating for themselves. G: Correct. That's usually it. R: When somebody gives you a flat rate it's not that this is a flat rate and someone else is going to just give you like ‘$85 an hour please.' G: Yeah. K: Well are you calculating your flat rate based on how many hours you, in your experience, know this takes? G: Yes, that's exactly what most artists do. Because clients tend to not want to bill per hour, because it's a single gig, most artists will give a flat rate based off their previous experience of how long something is going to take, which is why when back-and-forth gets too much, we incur revision fees. Because usually the flat rate is based off of our average experience of a client who spends this much time talking with us, and this much is gonna have to go to taxes, etc. And because flat rate is generally easier for clients and billing as well. R: Yeah rather than an open-ended number where they have no idea, and there's probably some paranoia that if you don't know the person well you might just keep billing them for stuff. G: You're gonna find contracts that specify hourly rates for longer term stuff, like visual developments or several character designs, or if you have a world that you're trying to build out for a TTRPG or concept art for a new video game or something like that. But for single one-off jobs, it's usually the artist will give you a flat rate number based off of their estimation on how long the gig will take, which is why sometimes these flat rate numbers look gigantic. But remember, again, that's based off of an hourly rate. R: Now do you ever get an email from a potential client and you go ‘oh yeah I better double the number, based on the way this email is written'? G: Yes that has happened before; the asshole tax is a pretty common practice - K [overlapping]: [laughing] G: - among artists. We are factoring in how long something is going to take as well. K: And by the way along the flat rates and the contracts and Grace I don't know if this is how you typically handle this, but when we would do book covers it was usually half up front, of the flat rate, and half when the work is finished plus any additional revision fees, which for us was always just a like ‘hey here's the down payment if you will to show we're serious and to get started.' Artists put a lot of time into this, and if you say ‘well I'm gonna pay you when this is done' and then they go ‘I don't like it. Forget it. I don't want it anymore,' that's a lot of time and energy that the artist has now wasted for no return. G: Yup. Most artists will not start without half to full payment upfront. I'd say like 95% of them won't. ‘Cause everybody has been burned very early on in their career by somebody who asked for work and never paid for it. So you only let that happen once. [laughing] Yeah. Always be prepared to have the money ready, like half the money ready, before the artist will start working. If you have a relaxed deadline, a lot of artists are really chill about just letting things kind of be like ‘oh I have this email of somebody who's interested' but it doesn't become real and doesn't actually get scheduled until there's money down. K: Artists have schedules. And they have open time slots and things that they might not be able to fit you into. How much of a lead time would you say they need to leave, in order to have a fully completed piece of art ready to go? G: I'd say at the minimum one to two months. I know people that can turn stuff around in two weeks, but if you're looking to get something done in the one month range, you're probably looking at a rush fee. Artists usually keep one to two jobs forward, like they have something but they're working on something lined up, and they usually have maybe another one lined up. And so if you demand something immediately, then that means they have to rush the next two. K: Mhm. G: So usually they will include a rush fee for that. K: I mean essentially it's overtime - G: Yes. K: - at that point, like I'm having to work extra hours outside of my regular schedule so that I can get to your thing faster. G: Yeah. And the lead time will very specifically vary per artist, because if you're trying to get someone who's like super super popular, who has a large number of clients already, you may be waiting like a year or two. Like. [laughing] K: There're science fiction cover artists out there that, like two years, if you want anything from them. Some of those people have incredibly long lead times on these, and their schedules are just full like over a year. G: Yeah. Like for me, I tend to be booked out about four to five months in advance, personally. But I generally, I will do rush fees and I'll also do smaller client pieces here and there that I know I can fit into a weekend. But again it really is up to that individual artist. I know how fast it takes me to complete a piece, but when I have 50 things going on, yeah it might take 20 hours to do, but if I have ten things that all take 20 hours, then I have a lot of time management that I need to figure out. K [laughing]: Yeah absolutely. When you finish a commission, when you finish a piece, how are you getting it to the person who is actually going to use it then and turn it in for the publication? Because a lot of these pieces are, they're very high resolution, they're very large files, and what does this look like - First of all what kind of a file is it, what does it look like? And then 2) how are you getting it, and how do you set it up so that they can manipulate it the way they need? G: So usually for clients I send a flat image, unless a layered image is requested - R: And let the artist know that at the beginning. G: Yes. K: Yes. G: Yes, layered images will usually incur a higher charge, because it implies that you will be editing the image afterwards. And so basically you need to buy some rights, the editing rights, from your artist. So that'll be a higher charge up front, when you write your original contract. Usually because I do a lot of web work, I just deliver a high resolution JPEG, high resolution PNG, and that's fine for my clients. For other major work especially if you need a layered file, PSDs, Photoshop files, are generally the common way to do it. In which case you upload a massive, massive file to a file transfer service such as Dropbox, or a lot of companies often have an internal file transfer upload - you log onto their system and upload directly to their system. K: If you're getting, especially one of those huge high-res layered images, you need to have a program that can manipulate it. You might need something additional on your end to even work with the image then. But also like, these files are huge. Typically they can't just email it to you. There's actually file transfer services as Grace mentioned, where you drop these and it's just in there for like two days. And you've gotta go get the file within that two-day period. G: Yeah. I think for major transfers I generally lean on Dropbox and actually just sometimes Google Drive. They're not exactly super secure, but like - K: [laughing] G: - few very people are going around sneaking your self-pub cover, like. [laughing] They'll just delete it after you've got it. K [laughing]: Well, you never know, Grace. Maybe someday somebody will steal something that you've done and leak it to the public, and - G: That actually would be really bad. [laughing] I work for Wiz of the Coast, if it happens then it's bad. R: Secure FTPs from here on out. [laughing] K: Multi-factor authentication in order to get these files. G: Yeah. R: So Grace, I happen to know, because I am on the inside, that you are - at the time of this episode coming out - you are the guest art director on the next issue of The Deadlands. G: Yes! Yes I am. [laughing] R: So from the other side of the table, how do you go about picking artwork on behalf of who are essentially clients here for their magazine issue? G: Cool. So, for The Deadlands I worked with Cory, who is the main art director, and I looked through the existing repertoire of work that had already been selected for Deadlands publications. Cory was very helpful too in kind of summarizing up the visual style of the magazine, as stuff that's more dark, more photo-real, lots of use of textured work, and I could see it in all the previous selections that'd already gone through. So based off of that, I was using my knowledge of my time in the art community to find pieces that I thought would resonate with that style. G: I was also provided a showcase short story essentially, for that issue, that they thought like ‘hey it would be good if the cover resonated emotionally with this written piece.' So I was looking for stuff that leveraged the visuals within that story, visuals of growth and forestry in particular, goes with a nice visceral story. They gave me the rest of the stories to read too, but as just more background information. And so I went to the portfolios of some of the artists that I knew worked in that kind of emotional field, like artists that did a lot of dark work, artists that do a lot of work in monochrome spaces, and so I looked in their portfolios for work to license that fit the forest-y theme of the showcase story. G: And so I took a couple of pieces that I thought were good, showed them to Cory, Cory showed them to the editor, and we moved forward with one of them. I contacted that artist; they spoke English as a second language so that's another thing you have to watch out with artists, so you have to be very clear and direct in your emails to make sure that you can be understood when your email gets thrown into Google Translate. And then I put Cory in touch with the artist for final contracts and payment. R: This is coming out on September 14th; the new issue of The Deadlands should be out on the 19th, so make sure you check that out, because you will see the cover that Grace picked, and the art that fit into the style, and I happen to know from behind the scenes that everyone was really enthusiastic about your choices. So you made a small mention, but we should probably highlight just a little bit - this is licensed artwork, the artwork already exists, you didn't commission something new, this is a piece that the artist already created either on commission or just as part of their creative process on their own. And so the artwork is available for license, which means that in a limited capacity it can be used again. Can you explain a little bit more about licensing? G: Yeah. So licensing is essentially buying rights to print an image, whether it be like a t-shirt or whether it be like your book cover, and it kinda goes through a separate route than commissioning. So commissioning essentially you are paying for a service, you're paying for an artist's time to make custom work for you. For licensing, it's closer to buying rights, and you're saying ‘I want to pay you x amount for the right to use this image in my piece. And generally artists are pretty lenient about licensing, especially if you are doing a non-exclusive license. It's basically free money for us, like you're paying us for something that we've already created, there's no additional hourly time that we're gonna have to handle other than administrative fees, which are usually more than covered in the licensing. For that you just generally email them and ask them if they have a licensing fee already, or you can generally look for standard licensing fees for products of the same type as yours. G: Most magazines and such will print how much they pay for licensed covers, in part of their artistic submissions and generally you can offer this rate for similar products within the field. When you are commissioning, though, these rights and usages will actually be factored into the contract. For example, if you want to be the only person who can use this work, you want the artist never to sell this work to another licensee, then this will factor into the cost of your original contract. The flat rate that the artist gives you might be higher, because basically you're saying they can't make future money off of it by licensing it to somebody else. ‘Cause copyright-wise, the image I believe is retained with the artist, unless the rights are completely bought out in the contract. Like I believe most contracts are they pay for the work and they pay to license the work, so an exclusive license would be the license fee but higher. R: Kind of like the layered file, like you know that this person wants to own this image and do whatever they want with it, so you kind of charge extra. G: Yeah. I'll charge even higher if somebody is like ‘you can never show this in your portfolio,' like you can't even use this to get more work later. K: I don't understand why anyone would want that. R: Yeah. K: Ok. G: It really has to do with intellectual property NDA-type stuff, so if they're like ‘this is a super-secret project, this is too early on,' ‘cause usually it's like artists get to post in a portfolio once the thing has been released, but if they're worried a project is gonna be canceled and they wanna hold onto the image in case they wanna use it for another project, then that would bar them from putting it in a portfolio. This is more common practice among artists who work in video games and animation, where their projects are constantly like revolving, canceled, there's a lot more asset reuse, yeah. R: Alright so. There [laughing] is a lot of information on licensing, on contracts, on payment structures. Be nice to the artist, ‘cause look at everything they're already balancing. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So any final thoughts, Grace? Anything we haven't touched on that is a bugaboo for you, that you wanna make sure we warn people or - G: I feel like we've covered a lot. R: - invite people, it can be inviting too. G: I dunno, come to my class November 13th. It's a free business class on how to write effective art briefs. [laughs] R: Yes, that's through Clarion West. G: It'll be through the Clarion West, yes. R: Yeah, so we will put the link to that in the show notes. Hopefully the - is it unlimited spaces, or is it limited? G: There are one hundred spaces, I think like 40 of them are already taken. R: Okay! So by the time this comes out there'll be less than 60 available, so make sure that you go find that link in the show notes for that free workshop, because I think a brief is going to make you as compatible as possible with the person that you commission. Because you wanna make their job easy, so that they don't wanna charge you extra. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And also so that they still love your project by the time they get to the final artwork. K: Yeah, so they don't have some sort of visceral shudder reaction every time the name of that book or project comes up. [laughing] G: Things also go around. Artists talk to each other, so if you give one a terrible time, then a lot of them will not wanna work with you anymore. K: Yeah this is something not just in art and publishing, but I think most industries - people who work in the same field talk to each other. Artists do not exist in a bubble, they are not all hiding in some dark studio bent over an oil painting that they've been devoting their life to - G: I mean we are. K: Okay. G: But we all just have Discord open on the side. K [laughing]: The room has internet access, yes. Grace thanks so much, this was great. I think this was a lot of really good information that people kinda dipping their toe in the water here may not be aware of, or know how to find easily. But speaking of finding, where can people find you? G: Ah, you can find me on ArtStation, at artstation.com/fictograph. It's like pictograph but with an f instead of a p. That is the same on Twitter, where it's mostly cat photos. K: [laughing] R: Alright we will put those links in the show notes too, so you won't even have to spell anything. Just go find a link, and go find Grace because Grace has a lot of amazing artwork to look at, and also might be the perfect artist for a future project of yours!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Transcript (by Rekka) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Rekka: So today's episode is, uh, from a listener request, but I put it in the same batch of listener requests where I didn't write down the names to credit people. So you know who you are. Thank you for the idea. Kaelyn: If you were this listener, get us on Twitter and yell at us. Rekka: We'll add it in the show notes posthumously. Well, hopefully not posthumously. Kaelyn: I was gonna say, "What?!" Rekka: Posthumous to the episode. Kaelyn: All right. Rekka: So today we are talking about writing body language. Kaelyn: This is, I think one of the harder things to do. Rekka: How to be hyper-aware of where you put your hands. Kaelyn: I have, while editing books, actually acted it out and recorded myself. Rekka: Okay. So you have mentioned on the podcast before that you act these out, but you never mentioned that there was footage. Kaelyn: Oh, it's gone. Don't worry. No, it doesn't, it doesn't exist. Rekka: It's never really gone, Kaelyn. Kaelyn: You will not see it, um. Figuring out, you know, body language without slowing down the pace of, you know, the story or the dialogue is, is difficult. So, um, I'd recorded these and then kind of gone like, okay, well, what am I doing here? Does that match up with what I'm reading? So, yeah, it's, it's hard. It's I think one of the more challenging things to do. Rekka: I don't always think about it that way. So the reason that my characters will scratch their neck or, you know, look around the room or, um, fiddle with pages on their desk is frequently because I want to avoid using a dialogue tag because I had too many or, um, or that she said, or whatever messes with the rhythm of my, of my paragraph. So for me, I use body language as a way to use the name of the character that is saying the words without saying "character said." Kaelyn: Yeah. So let's, uh, let's backtrack here a little bit. Why you write body language and how it's useful. So obviously the why is because we kind of need to know what the characters are doing. Rekka: Yep. That's helpful. Kaelyn: Everyone isn't standing perfectly rod straight in a room, staring at each other and taking turns to talk. Body language is very helpful for conveying things that are happening with the characters without actually having to say what's happening. Cultures around the world... There are certain ways that people act there are certain things that they do that convey an emotion or a feeling, even just the situation that they're in. Something like a character wringing their hands is going to convey nervousness or maybe trying to piece their thoughts together. Body language is a non-verbal form of communication that you're giving the reader. You're trying to explain what they're thinking or what they're feeling without having to actually do it. This is a very "show me, don't tell me" tool for writing. Rekka: And that is how I find it most useful. Not because I'm worried about choreographing the perfect movements of my character across the room, but because it helps break up the inner kinda monologues, it helps break up the exposition. It helps break up the dialogue. It's like, this is the thing that's happening here in this moment. As you say, grounds the reader where if I'm trying to choreograph something, it's going to be very, it's like might be a whole paragraph of the character's movement versus it's like just a sentence and then moving on. Kaelyn: Yeah, exactly. So, um, what did, what do they say? Something like about half of human communication is nonverbal. Rekka: They say that. Yeah. Kaelyn: Um, granted in the age of the internet that may have, that may have changed a bit. Rekka: Yeah. Half of human communication is now text-based more Kaelyn: Than that. Probably body language, as Rekka said, um, it adds depth to dialogue. It does it doesn't make it. So you have a wall of Kaelyn said, let's look over there. Sure said Rekka, I'll follow you. Instead it's Rekka gave a thumbs up and followed after her. It also is very helpful to show characters' emotions. Somebody who is relaxed and having a good time with their friends is going to have very different body language than somebody who is getting ready to, you know, go fight a dragon. For the record. Nobody fight dragons. Dragons are meant to be pet and given snacks. Rekka: Admired. Kaelyn: Yeah, exactly. But that's where it can certainly get a little hard, I think is trying to figure out how the balance is between describing a character's body language and their actions and what they're doing versus keeping the pace of the story. There is no good answer to this. Kaelyn: This is something that you're only going to come up with through trial and error. And to be clear, I'm not talking about blocking. Blocking is very different from body language. If you're writing a fight scene and there's a lot of stuff going on all at once and you have to figure out, you know, who's where and how far apart they are from each other. And who's, you know, been stabbed and is lying on the ground. And are they in a position where someone's going to trip over them? That's not body language. That's. Rekka: action. Kaelyn: Yeah. Action. Rekka: I like to think of it as body language adds the context to the dialogue. It communicates what the character's reactions are to things or how they're trying to use their words to manipulate a situation. Kaelyn: Yeah. And conversely, um, body language can be a giveaway, you know, especially if you have like a first person limited POV in your book and you write that, you know, somebody that the audience is already feelin' a little iffy about has like a sadistic smirk on their face. Well, that's a good, you know, give away that they're probably up to no good. So that's another thing about body language is it's also the perception of whoever the POV is at that point. Rekka: Yeah. And how close you are to that POV character determines a lot of how much they notice. So for example, if you have a character that you want to be fooled by someone else for half the book, then they need to notice that they have a very charming lopsided smile, as opposed to a sadistic smirk. Kaelyn: Yes. This is another thing that you can use with unreliable narrators. Everything is open to the interpretation of the POV character. Are they wringing their hands because their nervous or are they wringing their hands because soon their laser will destroy Metropolis? Body language... So, not only to help add richness and depth to the scenes, it can also be used to manipulate and move a story in a certain direction. To make the reader think what you want them to think. Because even though all of this is nonverbal communication and we as humans are, you know, just in our daily lives are pretty good at perceiving that sometimes we're not always great at perceiving it, or sometimes we want to take it exactly the wrong way, because we've already made up our minds about something it's helping to sort of build a character and round them out a bit. Something that I really enjoy about body language is when you see a character doing the same thing over and over again, to the point where they don't, the author doesn't need to explain that's something they do when they're nervous or that's something they do when they're planning. It kind of helps your reader latch onto that character and make them feel like they know them. Rekka: Yeah. Or they sort of know what's going on anyway. Like, oh, you're doing that thing again that you always do when you lie. Kaelyn: Having other characters in the story recognize the repeat body language of different characters also is, I think, a good way to sort of build the story and build the characters. So actually writing it: you know, how do you, how do you know when you need to, you know, throw some body language in there? Rekka, I know you like to defer to that rather than using— Rekka: Dialogue tags. Yeah. I would rather have somebody grind their jaw. I'm hyper-aware of how will the sound read out loud, whether in a reading or as a narrated audio book. And the repetition of dialogue tags is something that kind of catches my ear a lot. So it's, it's something that I've got a bug about. So I will always try to use a descriptive action by the character who's speaking instead. And also I find it helps kind of move that scene's plot along as well. Now maybe "he said" would be two words, whereas, you know, "and then he dumped his coffee out in the sink and slammed the mug on the counter" is a lot more words, but it also, it connects it to that statement and keeps the whole thing moving forward. Like you feel like there's a tumble of real life action happening. Kaelyn: Yeah. And it's also communicating something about that character. Not only are they clearly frustrated, but depending on the context of this, maybe they got frustrated very easily or for no reason. Rekka: Maybe they just don't appreciate a cup of coffee. Kaelyn: It's very possible. I hear those people are out there in the world. Rekka: Yeah. They're around. That's why I use them. That's how I use them. And that's how I decide when to use them. Do you have editor advice? Kaelyn: I would say that when you should use them at minimum is if things are changing, if characters are moving around, if the intensity of a situation is being escalated, if somebody has picked something up and put it down, you know, and we need to know if they're doing that just because they, you know, it wasn't what they were looking for. And then they put it down in a, you know, angry way. I think when there's things that are happening, that is when it's important to show body language. This isn't to say that you need to overload your writing with this. You don't need tons of adverbs. She tossed the book at him angrily. Rekka: Right. And I think if you start falling on the adverbs and you're not really writing the body language. You are telling again. Kaelyn: Yes, exactly. My kind of metric for when you need to include body language is sort of action-based and update based. Did somebody do something? And if so, how? Yeah. What is it conveying about them? It was not conveying anything about them. If it's just that they went to get a cup of coffee because they like coffee, then, you know, you don't need to say, "they happily skipped towards the coffee machine humming while they—" I don't know. Actually, I feel like that's how I would write Rekka getting a cup of coffee. Rekka: Prolly not skipping. You already used an adverb in that sentence. So... Kaelyn: I did. Rekka: I would blend it with the dialogue. Like, "I'm going to need coffee. If we're going to continue talking about this" and then go to the coffee machine or grab the grinds from the canister or something like that. I agree with you. It should be relevant to what's going on, not just to replace dialogue tags. So if I find myself, like, I don't know what this character would be doing right here that I could use in place of a dialogue tag, then I'm probably overdoing it. And then I'll just use the damned dialogue tag. Kaelyn: I think actions and updates are a good way to use body language. Your character's doing something or something is changing. So for instance, if there's a discussion going on and it's starting to get heated body language is going to be a good indicator there. Rekka leaned forward in her chair and leveled her days at Kaelyn. Yeah. Rekka: And see no adverbs there. And I'm not saying Edwards are bad (and we'll probably do an episode on adverbs. I don't know... Eventually), but in this moment they're not serving the purpose that you're going for. You are trying to use that show-don't-tell to communicate what's going on and an adverb weakens your argument for all that. So when you say updates and changes and actions, sometimes adding a character action with body language, to a dialogue tag, I will suddenly realize that there's something else going on in the scene. And hopefully the other characters can participate in it too. So that by having them do their steps of whatever the process is, I can insert their attitude. Are they relaxed? Are they stressed? Are they terse? Are they unengaged? Is there a competition going on for somebody trying to do one thing while the other person is trying to get them to do something else? Like it can become a whole scene in itself that can communicate a lot about the characters. But yeah, if it's just like this person sitting in a chair and that person sitting in a chair, I don't want to have every paragraph, a character like scratches their nose, or, you know, crosses their legs or uncrossed their legs or anything like that. Kaelyn: I call those AI movements, things that we build into these robots and stuff to make them appear a little bit more human. And I think in most scenarios in books, we don't really need those because well, you know, the characters, they may be human, maybe something else. But unless there's a reason, like for instance, you know, people are just sitting talking and you don't need to have them crossing and uncrossing their legs, scratching their nose unless it's serving something. Like, are they fidgeting? Is the fidgeting showing nervousness? Or is this just somebody, you know, such a hyper ball of energy, they can't sit still, right? The body language should serve an action. It shouldn't be there just to communicate that these are dynamic real people, like we would build into a robot that we're trying to convince the rest of the world is as human as the last one. Rekka: Right. Which nobody believed in any way. Kaelyn: No, every time they come up with a new one of those, I'm just kind of like, why are we doing this? Kaelyn: So you can absolutely overuse body language. It doesn't need to happen, you know, every time somebody needs to show a function in which they're human. You don't need to tell us that they're constantly blinking, that they, you know, are clearing their throats. Unless again, they're clearing their throats to get attention or something. We don't need to hear about, you know, how their finger itches or— my finger riches right now, actually. So that's why I was thinking about that. Rekka: Kaelyn, we don't need to hear about it. Kaelyn: Exactly. No one needed to know that. But used correctly, body language is an excellent literary and storytelling device. Rekka: I would also caution that you would want to make the movements natural and not stereotyped. When we started talking about body language, the first thing I imagined was Ursula, the sea witch, telling Ariel not to forget about body language. Kaelyn: Never forget body language. Rekka: Then shakes her hips percussively. You might fall into a trap of thinking all women will move in a slinky manner or run their perfectly manicured fingertips against their collarbone and speak in a hushed whisper kind of thing. Kaelyn: If you want to see some good examples of how to not write body language, go on the subreddit "men writing women." Rekka: Yeah. That about covers it. Kaelyn: There's some gems in there. Rekka: And you know, um, sometimes men writing men, there's, you know, there's a muscle flex at every possible opportunity. It's just something that's not going to serve your story, unless you're telling a very specific kind of story. In 2021, if you're telling that kind of story, I hope it's a commentary. Kaelyn: Yeah. Commentary or meant to be so over the top that it's, it's humorous. In which case then yes, it is commentary. Rekka: Right. Exactly. Kaelyn: So just to kind of round out this discussion, this can be hard. It can be hard to not write the same action over and over again. And the reason for that is because as humans, we do the same thing over and over again. In the time that I've been recording this with Rekka, I must have crossed and uncrossed my legs about six times. Rekka: Right. I see her touching her nose. Kaelyn: Yes. Okay. Here's a good example. I'm having terrible allergy problems right now. My skin is just like, it's very itchy. So Rekka's been watching just, you know, scratch my cheeks and my eyebrows and my nose and my neck. Rekka: Which doesn't make the itching go away by the way. Kaelyn: It doesn't, no. Rekka: So if you write your character doing this, have them like working themselves up into a frustrated frenzy of itchiness as they're trying to survive this job interview or whatever the scene is. Kaelyn: Yeah. Because nobody needs to know about how my nose itches. Unfortunately, all of you do. And I'm sorry for that. Rekka: But in a scene, if you're trying to make a character uncomfortable, allergies is a way to do it. Kaelyn: Oh, definitely. Yes. That's a very good way to do it. Rekka: But choosing which body language and knowing where to put it, you were starting to say like, it can be difficult. Um, and I think that's part of the trick is we are told that our characters need to be doing something in a scene. And then we start inventing movements and yes, if you use the same one over and over and over again, it can be repetitive, but you can also use it as a tell for that character, as we said earlier, or tick that shows that they're anxious. Same thing. That's still a tell. Kaelyn: By the way, a very good literary device for hidden identities. That if you want somebody to go back and go, oh yes. Now I can see, you know, that's something that you see across, especially a lot of epic fantasies, you know, with like sprawling stories where— Rekka: The princess was allergic to strawberries and this one character keeps avoiding the strawberry patch that they have to cross through. Kaelyn: Yeah. Or, you know, something like that, but also just, um, you know, somebody who maybe has like a weird habit of like pulling on their, their ear. And then, you know, sometimes you see them doing it. And sometimes they don't and it turns out they were a twin all along. Or, um, characters that are two different characters encounter the same person, but don't identify them. But the reader can tell they're the same person because of body language or, you know, the way that they stand. This is something very commonly seen. Writers will use exactly the same sentence or the exact same words to describe what a character is doing because they want the reader to pick up on this is the same person. Rekka: Yeah. And you have to also have some repetition in order for that reader to pick up on things at all. Like if you want it to stand out, you do need to repeat things. Sometimes not just word for word, but multiple times, because a reader might skim over that at that particular moment. And then you miss it. Now, like you can't be responsible for a reader with poor attention on your book. That's, you know, hopefully something that doesn't happen because your plot moves and your stakes are important to the reader, but you don't want to repeat something that you did 400 pages ago and assume that the reader is going to remember what you said in passing 400 pages ago. Kaelyn: It's definitely a balancing act with that because, you know, conversely, you're also not responsible for, if you have hyper hyper aware readers, picking everything apart and going well, they said this person scratched their nose using their middle finger. And then somebody else also scratched their nose using the middle finger. And I know one of them is, you know, a 42 year-old woman then the other is a six year-old boy. But I think they're the same person secretly somehow. There's another far end that that could go to. Kaelyn: Body languages. You know, it's really helpful in a lot of different capacities in writing. It can be used as a storytelling device. It can be used to, you know, help grow and develop characters. It can be used to set a scene. It's something that I think you get better at. I think it's something that you get good at in revisions. I think a lot of times, you know, after your first draft of your manuscript's completed, you're going to go through and see a lot of dialogue tags in there. She said. He answered. They, you know, screamed. I think that body language is something you refine on subsequent passes. Rekka: I think that's fair, until it becomes natural. And then, you know, you'll just be refining it like you do the rest of your manuscript on your revision pass. But until you do feel comfortable doing it, you know, put it on a whiteboard somewhere as a thing that you are going to pay attention to as you go through. Kaelyn: This is something that if you're struggling with, I would recommend, frankly, just Googling. There's a lot of helpful information about do's and don'ts of body language, um, suggestions of how to incorporate it without, you know, weighing down your writing and your reader. Things to avoid versus things that are a little more descriptive with maybe less words and how to properly navigate adverbs. Rekka: So really you don't need this podcast at all. New Speaker: No. New Speaker: You just need us to show up every other week and tell you to Google it. Kaelyn: But normally I don't like to say, just get out there and punch it into Google and find stuff because you never know what you're going to come across. This is an area where there's a lot of good, "write this, not this." Some of them are just like charts and lists. Essentially. Rekka: The other thing you can do is read and pay attention to the books you're reading and how they're handling it. Especially a book where you're like, I don't remember any body language. You go back and read through the first chapter of that and I bet you'll find some. Kaelyn: Yeah, definitely. One of my go-to suggestions is always, if you're having trouble with writing: read more. It really helps internalize certain things. Rekka: Yeah. Go find somebody who's doing the thing that you like and see how they're doing it. Kaelyn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rekka: And on your manuscript, you can take a highlighter and go through on your revision pass and highlight body language and see how frequently you're using it versus highlighting, in a different color, the exposition or the internal monologue or the narrator's omniscient voice versus what's happening in that moment. And I think you'll start to see some patterns. And if you're not sure if you're doing it well, that might be the place to start. Kaelyn: If that sounds daunting, let me put it this way: It is. But editors and readers will absolutely notice these things. It's a subconscious thing that a lot of readers will do. It is a very conscious thing that a lot of editors will be looking for. Rekka: And... You know, again, practice and do it on all your books, make it part of your process and eventually it will become more natural and it won't be as much work because you won't have to think about it as hard. You won't find your first draft completely devoid of action sentences when you've practiced adding them, they will start to happen in your draft. Kaelyn: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a good little span about body language. Rekka: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to be a long conversation to be a podcast episode. Kaelyn: That's true. Rekka: It doesn't have to be a long sentence about the movement that a character is making in order to be body language tag. But we do have a listener comment, uh, this time, uh, we actually had it the past few times, but we were doing interviews, and then the last time it was just the two of us, I just plum forgot. Cortneylyn says, I love listening to this podcast. It feels like I'm still being productive on my work in progress, even when I can't work on it. Like when I'm driving great voices, great hosts, and helpful writing slash publishing insights. So thank you, cortneylyn. I hope everyone agrees. If you do agree, please go join cortneylyn in leaving a comment and rating because that really helps our podcast be discovered by other people who might find the information useful. And we like that. We'd like to be discovered. Kaelyn: We definitely do. Yes. Well, um, everyone, thank you so much for listening. You know, if you want to leave us a comment or a thought, or maybe you disagree with our assessment of body language, or maybe you want to describe what your body language is like as you've been listening to this. Rekka: I'm not sure I want that, but we do welcome comments and questions at @WMBcast on Instagram and Twitter or on Patreon, you can find us under the same moniker. You can DM us on Twitter if you have a question you want to keep to yourself and we will anonymize it, or maybe unintentionally anonymize it if we forget to write down who said it, but, uh, we are always open to answering your questions in future episodes. And one of those future episodes will be coming in two weeks and we will talk to you then.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Unfettered Hexes Kickstarter Infomocracy Redbubble Shop dave-ring.com neonhemlock.com neonapothecary.com dave is @slickhop on Twitter and Instagram Neon Hemlock Press is @neonhemlock on Twitter and Instagram VOIDMERCH Neon Hemlock's Threadless shop Riddle's Tea Shoppe Hailey Piper Glitter + Ashes anthology Matthew Spencer, illustrator This is How We Lose the Time War Tracy Townsend Dancing Star Press Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Let's see what happens if you drape the oracle cloth over top. dave: I have a thousand of those. R [laughing]: Yeah. Kaelyn: Speaking of SWAG. d: Does that help? R: Exhale. d: [wheezing] R: Yes. K: Yes! R: It's not just good for laying your cards out on. K: [laughing] d [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Okay! I'm gonna have to leave this in. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: dave, why don't you introduce yourself to start, and then we'll get going? d: My name's dave ring, I'm a writer and editor of speculative fiction. I'm also the managing editor and publisher over at Neon Hemlock Press. Which comes with a bevy of other, like graphic design layout, and - K: [laughing] d: - products, placements, whatever else I've come up with lately! K: Many, many other hats in different shapes and sizes. R: So the reason I wanted to have dave on the podcast was because it occurred to me that something that comes up pretty frequently, especially around conference season when we're meeting in person and around book launches as well, is that authors wanna know like ‘do I need a bookmark? How do I do a bookmark? What else can I do?' K: ‘Do I need swag?' R: Yeah, so swag. Swag - Kaelyn, I'm just gonna cut in to your definition and say that swag is an acronym for Stuff We All Get. So - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: To that point, this is not going to be all free swag. K: Yes. R: Swag implies that it is free, that you'll pick it up as you visit the author's signing table, or that you'll get it in the mail for preordering, or some little bonus bit like that. The person that we are speaking to today has taken book tie-in items and - what would you wanna call it? I don't wanna say paraphernalia, but I love that word, so there. You've taken it to a whole new level. And a lot of it has to do with Kickstarter, would you blame Kickstarter for this? d: Maybe some of it. And I like paraphernalia, the word that I am often drawn to is ‘ephemera,' but I like both. Depending on the particular object, maybe one is more appropriate than the other. But I blame Kickstarter for a lot of things in terms - R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: - of connecting with a lot of the people who are buying the books that Neon Hemlock's been putting out. R: So it's hard to say ‘blame' in that sense. d: To [unintelligible] - blame. K: [laughing] d: Yeah. But some of that's been driven from that, and some of it's been driven from just sort of nerdish excitement over different things. And then because I'm the one in charge, no one says no to me, so - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: I just keep having ideas and doing the thing! K: Let's talk about some of the different kinds of swag, of paraphernalia, of - oh I just lost the word now - ephemera! I didn't really know that book swag was a thing until I started going to conferences. Like obviously I've been to book signings and things, and there's like bookmarks and maybe a pencil or something that they give out. K: But then I'd get to these conferences and I was like ‘wow there's a lot of stuff that authors are handing out, or publishers' - like everything from those bookmarks, pins - enamel pins are a big thing. I've seen people that showed up with special printed editions of the book that they only had like 10 of them and they were just handing them out at the conferences and that was it. If you didn't get them there, you were never gonna get this. It's interesting that this is something that comes around books, because you think well the thing you get out of this is the book. Why does the book have accessories that come with it as well? But I think you kinda hit the nail on the head, this nerdy-dorkiness of like ‘I love this so much I want to be able to have it with me at all times, not just on my Kindle.' d: Book lovers are already in this spot where you can - maybe you've read the book on your Kindle, but you want to have the physical book as well. So there's already that feeling that people have, and then sometimes it sort of extends to further things. Like I remember Dancing Star has made a lot of beaded earrings that match the covers of their books and some other popular speculative books. Of course you don't need to wear a particular pair of earrings in order to enjoy a book, but there is something sort of satisfying about - R: When you really enjoy the book, and then suddenly you need the earrings. d: [chuckling] K: Look at anything from TV shows to movies to video games, like there's all sorts of things that we wear and little accoutrements that we have that's sort of like a signal nod-and-wink to somebody else that's like, ‘ah yes, I also like that thing.' I was wearing a pair of my Sailor Moon socks recently at a house party and I'd taken my shoes off, and somebody was like ‘is that Sailor Mercury on your socks?' I was like ‘it is, yes. Yes.' R: And that's how you know your people. K: Exactly. Yeah but it is this thing of like, that's one of the - it's a signal, it's a secret language of how we identify each other. R: And this is speaking from more like the fan side of why you would want to display these things, in whatever way they are meant to be displayed, whether they're earrings or whether they're a pin, whether they're a sticker, a patch, something. I know that when I first started thinking of swag, I was thinking of things I have to give away for free, that are going to keep me in mind in a potential reader who isn't ready to pick up the book or not in a position where they can buy the book. R: Like I meet someone in a coffee shop and we're waiting for our coffee and we end up talking and somehow it comes up that I'm a science fiction writer and they wanna know about it. If I carry bookmarks in my purse, it's a book-related item, and it can have the sales copy on the back of the bookmark, or a blurb from another author promoting the book. And then you have some of the cover art on the other side and the title and my name, and therefore they have everything they need to find me later. And, if nothing else, they've got a bookmark that maybe they'll hang on to, ‘cause the art's cool, and then later they find it and they go ‘oh yeah,' and it's kind of like putting my branding in front of them multiple times. Every time they come across it, it might be one step closer to them buying the book. R: So that's one thought I had and why I chose bookmarks, ‘cause 1) they're relatively cheap, paper is or at least was a relatively cheap material, and so if your swag is made of paper it's not a huge upfront investment. You can maybe get 500 bookmarks for $75 or something depending on your printer. Book swag seems to have really - K: Oh the game has been stepped up. R: Yeah. I remember Tracy Townsend giving out little plastic-covered notepads with a pen built in, neat little binder, and I still have it by my bed. So I can't imagine that that was anywhere near the price of a bookmark. There's gotta be a level at which we go ‘okay this cannot be free anymore.' And some of that is related to the publisher, like is the publisher funding some of this? R: This Is How We Lose the Time War had pins, and they were giving them away with proof of preorder, and you picked your side, red or blue, and you got the pin. But the publisher I believe, and I may be incorrect, it may have been self-funded, but - the impression I got was that the publisher was providing those. And so I'm curious, ‘cause dave, you charge for some things, and some things are thrown in the box when you send out something. So like between stickers, bookmarks, and whatever else, what's your thought process of where it becomes a merchandise item versus a promotional item? d: Hm. You're making me think I need to have a thought process. R: Sorry. [laughing] K: [laughing] d: No I mean anything that's more than a couple dollars to make usually is in the… either I bundle it with something else or it's charged for on its own. Maybe one thing that slightly is confusing is I have this thing called Club Serpentine, where folks sign up ahead of time for everything I published in a given year, and those folks I give all the swag to for free basically, so. But in other cases like these tarot altar cloth-slash-bandana, depending on your perspective, slash microphone dampener - K: [chuckling] d: - those, I'm gonna give those away to the authors in Unfettered Hexes but I'm gonna also sell them on the website. And then like, I made an oracle deck, which is similar to a tarot deck, for Unfettered Hexes, and we're using the interior illustrations from the anthology as part of that deck. So again I'm giving those away to the authors but everyone else is paying for them. And there's a, I'm calling it an oracle coin, but there's a coin that also goes inside that deck, that comes with the deck, but otherwise you can also buy it separately. d: So the writers or folks that are part of Club Serpentine are getting things for free as it were, but they've either written a story for me or they've invested. So it's not really for free, it's still being part of the project in some capacity. Whereas stickers for me maybe is where the line is drawn. Stickers, I just like making them, there's a website I pay attention to that every once in a while will list a 50-stickers-for-20-bucks, and so I just get those every time it comes up so that I can dish them out like candy. R: They are very much like candy, I have quite a few stickers from both Neon Hemlock and Neon Apothecary. d: We like stickers, yeah. [chuckling] Especially when they make the luminescent ones, we're like yeah we like that deal! We like those a lot. K: [laughing] d: Maybe Rekka's right and it's also like Kickstarter campaigns because with the most recent novella campaign, I was like ‘oh I wonder if I can incentivize folks to back us on the first day.' So I had what I was calling Launch Day Loot, which I commissioned this artist I work with a lot, Matt Spencer, to make a print of a character from each of the novellas, and so I'm sending that to everybody and I also used that print to make bookmarks as well, out of pretty paper. d: So I am slightly regretting this, because it means that I can't use my fulfillment center to do book shipment, it means I have to mail them all myself. So I'm surrounded by piles over here on my side. So those are the first time I actually thought, these are like swag in the traditional sense, like this is free stuff that I'm gonna give you if you buy it on a given day. Whereas the stickers nobody actually expects those, I just have been getting them and sending them to people. K: Nobody expects the book stickers. … Monty Python? No? Okay. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: It made me think of the ‘Nobody's gonna know.' ‘They're gonna know.' ‘No one's gonna know!' K [overlapping]: [laughing] ‘No they're totally gonna know!' So let me ask this then, this is a lot of work, this is a lot of effort. Why do you do it? Apart from [laughing] - R: That's a nice smile, dave. d: [laughing] K: Yeah for those listening at home, dave has a lovely smile on his face right now. Yeah it's - completely, for joy, for getting things out there that show people enjoy your books and what you publish, that I think is fantastic. I'm sure it's delightful to run into somebody who's got something, a sticker or a bookmark or something from one of your publications or something that you did a special run of, but - How do you think it benefits not just you as a publisher, but then also authors? There's like you, who you're gonna do it on behalf of what you're publishing, or authors, who might do it on their own behalf. Why would you recommend book swag? d: I don't know that I have a metric or anything that would say that they categorically increase sales by x percentile or anything like that. But there is a sort of impression that I have that, just folks get excited by stuff? And giving people something to be excited about feels nice. There's something especially about writing where it often doesn't have a physical form that often, so. Like yeah you have a cover you can point to sometimes. Short stories often don't have their own art. It's nice giving things physical shape. K: I agree. Yeah. d: Like I'm not making a fortune over here making bandanas, I haven't become a bandana empire quite yet - R: It'll happen. K: Give it time, give it time. d: Maybe next year. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So what was your progression? Did you start with stickers and then you just sort of said ‘oh I could also do this, and then I can also do this, and I can also do this,' and now you have oracle decks and bandanas and coins. d: Honestly, Unfettered Hexes, this anthology has really fed all of my most rabbithole impulses. Because it's all related to witchery, it's really - like the accessories are great - Any time I think of one it's hard to say no to. We went for an enamel pin, more than 40 illustrations in the book - These tarot cloth, the oracle deck, the coin, I think I stopped there. Well I made stickers, too. And then I made these mini prints from the cover, so. Part of it is I can't get out of my own way, and I just keep making things. And part of that too, maybe because I've got the interest both in the editing side and in the design side, there's no one here to tell me otherwise. I just keep making up - R: But you are working with artists for pretty much every little item that you come up with. d [overlapping]: Yeah. I do the design part but I don't do the illustrations. R: Right. d: Yeah. R: So the oracle cloth in front of you has some line art illustration, the coin itself I assume needed to be 3D - d: Oh the coin I made actually though. R: Okay. d: But I designed that with someone who then 3D-ified it. R: Yes. d: That's the technical term. R: It is. [chuckling] Yes. So you say you don't get out of your own way. I do wonder, do you go to any sort of ledger and say ‘Can I do this, with the budget I have?' d: Oh no. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: No. R: That gets in the way of the joy. d [laughing]: Yeah I only work with feelings, I don't work with numbers. R: [chuckling] d: No but two-thirds of these ideas are during an active Kickstarter, and I'm saying I'll do it if I reach this goal. So there was some math there. We just barely hit the oracle deck stretch goal. Because we hit $12,000, and then I said we wouldn't do the deck unless we had $18,000 and then we did, so. Whereas before I had lots of little stretch goals. R: Yeah the oracle deck is not a small project, as you said. Lots and lots of illustrations. Now if you hadn't gone with the oracle deck, were you still going to have the interior illustrations or were those the same item? d: Well, no they were different. So Matt Spencer, who did the illustrations for the oracle deck, he was on board to do some interior illustrations, but it was probably going to be like a chapter heading, maybe a couple of spot illustrations here or there, like we had a few things worked out. R: Mhm. d: And then once we hit the oracle it was like hey, what if instead, we just use every single one of these. R: [laughing] d: And you don't do the other illustrations. K: Since we've mentioned it a few times here, can you explain what the oracle deck is in relation to, and why you ended up making these cards? d: Sure, so an oracle deck is like a tarot deck. Rather than being a set number of suits and major and minor arcana, it has however many cards you decide. So we made this deck to go alongside the stories from an anthology called Unfettered Hexes: Queer Tales of Insatiable Darkness. K: A certain podcast co-host here may or may not have contributed to that. d: Yeah, and as my penultimate story in the anthology. R: I'm happy because I also love the world ‘penultimate.' K: [chuckling] d: I'm actually not 100% sure because after, you're technically the last story, but then there's a poem after you. So you're the penultimate… K: Entry? d: Entry? Mm, yeah… [thinking noises] R: Hmm… K: Contribution? d: But you have two illustrations, right? R: Yeah. d: You've got both your oracle card one and then a two page color illustration. R: Somebody's playing favorites here and I love it. K: [laughing] d: I - y'know, we could say that. But also, it's a really good story, and it perfectly hit one of the themes I really wanted from the book, which was basically friendship in space. [chuckling] K: [chuckling] d: It just nailed it perfectly, and so it was a perfect tie-in for the end of the anthology. So I couldn't resist making all these pictures of it. R: I appreciate your inability to resist your impulses. d: [laughing] R: It has served me well! d: [unintelligible] R: So the oracle cards, as you said there's - what is it, 23? 24 stories? d: Ah, don't make me say a number right now. I think we just totally made it up - R [overlapping]: Okay. I - d: We'll say 24. And then… yeah, 24 that are directly inspired by the stories themselves, two each for each of the story games that are in the book, four related to the characters on the cover, and then four related to different Neon Hemlock themes. I don't know if this is that interesting, sorry. K: It is! No, it is. d: [laughing] R: You broke my math brain, so I was trying to follow along and get the total. d: I told you, I don't do numbers. R [overlapping]: Yeah, okay - d: So if those don't add up to 40, just - R: 92! Got it! Okay. K: [laughing] d [laughing]: Just roll through it! R: Yeah. So you commissioned all this artwork. You had an artist create individual, unique pieces for you. You also have the cover, you also have two interior color illustrations. I have also seen chapter art designs, a textured placeholder page. I think you said this is like 200 pages longer? d: It's a beast, yeah. R: Compared to Glitter + Ashes - d [overlapping]: Glitter + Ashes, yeah. R: - it is. d: It's like 160 pages longer. K: Wow. R: But it really seems like a project that came out of great enthusiasm, which is delightful. d: Yeah, glee, even. It's just - [chuckling] So we'll see if - I don't even know if I can recreate this excitement with a future project, ‘cause it just has been really exciting. Although, my problem with making things is already going further with - I won't tell you the exact - K [overlapping]: Oh no. d: - nature of it. K: Oh no! [laughing] d: But the next one will involve 3D printed figures. K: Wow. R: Oh my gosh. d: So we're already going out to left field again. R: Yeah. K: Okay. R: You can't not outdo yourself. It's like every published book is a stamp in history, and you look back and you go ‘Pfft, that guy. [scoffing] I can beat that.' d: [chuckling] R: So given everything you've learned, having gone through these processes, for sourcing objects that are not typical - like, okay, a lot of authors could probably tell you where to go to find somebody who will make an enamel pin for you. But a bandana, for example, or oracle cards, a printed coin. You've obviously had to figure things out, do some research on your own, and get creative about things. d: I also had to marry a chandler. R: That's true! And we all appreciate that sacrifice. [chuckling] d: [laughing] R: I have a lot of Neon Apothecary candles around me just so you know. d: I just needed to make sure I could lock that down for future projects. K: [laughing] R: Yeah there are candles to coordinate with the stories in Glitter + Ashes, in the novella series that you put out. Aside from ‘there's no reason you can't do anything' - you can't use that as the answer - what advice do you have for somebody that's into all this left field kind of paraphernalia and ephemera, and wants to do something for a book? Either as a self-published author, an author that's promoting their work and it's all on them versus the publisher contributing to this, or to a small press, or even a Tor.com? What words of sage wisdom would you pull from your oracle cards to give them? d [laughing]: The new moon would tell us that - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: Well, I think it's about scale, right? So I've definitely looked up different projects and then realized that they weren't feasible for me based off of my maybe modest scale. Depending on the project I'm looking to make like 100, 300, or 1,000 units of something, right? Which is small beans for a lot of projects. But, it's also far too many for some others. So like one writer, Hailey Piper, she just put out a horror novella. And her press did a limited-edit, handbound version that you could preorder at not a cheap price. d: But they only made those for those preorders, and then they're not gonna make any more. And that's something that, I know a local press in Baltimore that's since folded, but they handbound all of their special editions too. And that's something that is pretty special, and when you have it you know that you're only one of 20 that has one, so something like that could be an option for people. I think handcrafted things in small batches can be pretty meaningful. K: I have some experience with that, and yes. [laughing] d: Maybe you have to do it via raffle or some other way, maybe it's not a mass-produced thing. With the bandanas I had to price four or five of them, and the first three were like ‘what is this question you're asking? ‘Cause you're not really asking this very well.' [chuckling] K: [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And eventually I figured it out, and then took the price from one and brought it to the more ethical company and asked them if they'd match it and things like that. If anyone ever wants to reach out to me and hear about how I made a particular product I'm happy to talk people through it. With enamel pins, Juli Riddle of Riddle's Tea Shoppe walked me through that at every step of the way. The candles, again, the husband, so I cheated that. R: [chuckling] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And the coins I can talk to people, it's all just sort of been shots in the dark. Reaching out to people and then either asking dumb questions or having someone who already asked them tell me the way to do it so I can get through them. R: It's a lot more communicating with people who have done something similar figuring out how you would do this thing, as opposed to like pick your merchandise and upload your graphic. d: That's what I meant about scale, too. Like the minimum number of coins I can make is a thousand, you know? R: Yeah. K: Yeah. d: So you can't do that on a whim, right. So there's different mediums that are harder. Although it's funny, I realized I'm wearing my fictional show t-shirt that's based off of fictional bands in a novella that I published. K and R: [laughing] d: And I have that available through Threadless, which is sort of like halfway between those swag sites and a custom thing, where it feels kinda nice but it is an image that I uploaded and put on there. K: I mean I remember when I did vests. Just to buy the vests is expensive, but we ordered just one, because I just wanted to make sure this was not gonna look like garbage before I ordered 200 of them. And I had to convince the manufacturer to just make one. He's like ‘you know it's gonna cost like $50 to make this one vest, then plus you need to buy the vest?' I'm like ‘yeah that's fine, I'd rather spend $70 now and have it not look right than spend 5,000 down the road and it's terrible.' d: A lot of places now will give you a cheaper deal for - I can't think of the right word, it's not prototype, it's similar. R: Like a proof? d: Proof, thank you. Yeahyeahyeah. Like with coins they charge you for the molds either way. So those start already at like 300 or 400 bucks, depending on the kind of thing. Whereas at least with bandanas, they didn't do a proof for me there, but they can do a really nice mockup ‘cause it's only one color. And they will sort of make sure that you know that bandanas are not perfect squares, and - R [overlapping]: Yes. d: - and your image will be slightly off, those little kinds of things to make sure that you understand. K: Have there ever been any pitfalls you've come across, anything where you're just like ‘oh my God, this is not at all what I should've done here,' and can you look at things now and go like ‘ah yes, I have come across this problem before, I should go down a different path'? d: I mean… yeah? But also, even when you think you've got something figured out completely, like I just had a miscommunication with my printer where they didn't get my proof approvals, and two of my books are like three weeks late. So… things will happen either way, I think it's more getting a sense of timelines and knowing that you don't need something ready two weeks beforehand, you need it ready like a month and a half beforehand at least, so that then you're building in a little bit more buffer. Always build in more buffer. K: Anything that you've ordered or tried to design or something and got it and gone like ‘this is not at all what I wanted this to look like, or what I expected it to look like,' or? You seem like you're pretty methodical and thorough along the way. d: Oh, oh no. No no no. K: [laughing] d: I have a box full of ruined prints where they - even though I proofed an image that was fully spread, they sent me one that was with four inches of white space on every side. And then you just have to email them and say ‘this isn't like my proof' and so, even when you think you've got things figured out they still can kinda get screwed up. R: So you mentioned scale, and there are, just to name the ones that come to mind are CafePress and Redbubble, that you have the option to create one-offs, or to create a store without putting in any overhead other than the time to set it up. So that is an option, but it doesn't create that immediacy of like ‘I'm going to send this to you as a special treat,' or ‘this is part of our relationship as author and reader or publisher and reader,' so it allows you to create things without having to go through printers, without having to go through all the proofing processes. I mean you might wanna order one for yourself anyway just to make sure, ‘cause some of those shirts, the printing quality on them is better or worse depending on the fabric, but - K: Some of the fabric is better or worse too. [laughing] R: I mean there are options for people who don't have the ability to invest a little bit up front, or a lot up front. d: Well that was how I started using Threadless artist shops, because I had like three or four shirts from Void Merch - I don't know if y'all know them - and then I was like wait, they're making these on Threadless artist shops. And I commissioned like a metal band version of my logo for Neon Hemlock, and I was like I want this on a shirt! And like at this point I feel like 60% of my wardrobe is Neon Hemlock tank tops, so. I'm not only a client, I'm also the president. K: [laughing] R: Yeah. d: Yeah. R: Yeah so I mean there are ways to do this from small to large, you can put up a CafePress shop. I have actually, I forget who I saw recently was putting up merchandise online through one of these print on demand shops, and people were getting excited - oh it was Malka! Malka Older. Dr. Malka Older. She had Infomocracy related t-shirts and coffee mugs and all that kind of stuff and people were like ‘what! Where's the link?!' and getting excited about it on Twitter. I'm sure that resulted in a few sales. R: And then there's printing or having your own SWAG made, and you take it to a conference and you hand it out as part of rubbing elbows with the readers and the book-signing group kind of thing. And then there's Kickstarter rewards where you kinda have to - I don't know who started the stretch goals, but you gotta love them but you also kinda wanna hunt them down and throttle them. Because now people go ‘well this is exciting! But they're out of stretch goals, so I guess they're happy now and they don't want any more money for their campaign.' d: I think that's like a fundamental misunderstanding with Kickstarter though. Like I've had plenty of people, like I've sent them a link to a Kickstarter and be like ‘oh well you made your goals, so you don't need me to pre-order.' And it's like ‘but I'd still really like it if you did!' K: We could use more money. [chuckling] R: If you support this now, you won't forget to buy it later when it comes out. d: Well it also means you have the money to print it beforehand - R [overlapping]: Yeah. d: - which is pretty critical. R: Yeah, exactly. ‘Cause dave's books are very well produced, they are not POD one cover texture, they are not the typical POD interior pages either, like the paper quality is - dave is hand-selecting these things, and proofing them, and showing them to his friends in the morning writing Slack. K: [laughing] d: We do a lot of show and tell. R: We had show and tell this morning, it was great. d: I keep trying to see if people can see like, can you tell it's embossed? R: [laughing] K: [laughing] R: So there's lots of stages. I don't want anyone to feel pressured to generate oracle coins right out of the gate. d: But I'd buy them. R: But dave's ready to buy them, along with your band t-shirts. [chuckling] And if you want inspiration, just check out the Kickstarter stretch goals for Neon Hemlock, the tie-in merchandise for the anthologies that he does. And it's always nice and cozy to think of a publisher that is enjoying the stories as much as the readers will, and feeling inspired by them to create stuff, and then having the authority for that to be official stuff is also really cool. But yeah, an author, a publisher, small press - K: It's very doable. It just depends on how much you wanna do. R: How much you feel comfortable doing what you're excited to do, and if you're not excited by a thing I would say don't do it. K: Yeah. Definitely. ‘Cause it's not gonna get better once you start. R: And it's not cheaper if you don't love it. d [chuckling]: And like I said, if anyone ever has questions about how to get started and wants to reach out, I'm happy to at least give you the initial walk-through. K: Well along those lines, dave, where can everyone find you? d: Neon Hemlock's at neonhemlock.com, and also just neonhemlock all one word at all the socials. And then my personal Twitter would be, it's SlickHop. S-l-i-c-k-h-o-p. Oh and I'm at dave-ring.com. R: So thank you dave so much for coming on! d: Thanks for having me. R: And all those links will be in the show notes in the transcript and everything. K: Check out dave's upcoming projects, ‘cause Rekka is in a couple of them. R: That's not the only reason to do it though. There's a lot of people - I am - d: [laughing] K: Absolutely not the only reason. R: I am thrilled to be on this table of contents. It's a very good table of contents. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And the oracle deck I cannot wait to hold in my hand, I cannot wait to spill it out over this bandana which is actually an altar cloth, and flip that coin, and all the good stuff. I am really looking forward to seeing all these things that you've teased on camera in person, and I can't wait to see how you're gonna top it for the next anthology! d: Aaaaaah! Pressure! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Well with the 3D figures that you've already - d: These are secrets! No one tell anyone, that's a secret. R: Okay we won't tell anyone, we promise. d: [laughing] K: Everyone who listens to this, you're not allowed to tell anyone. d: Shhhhh. R: Forget everything you heard. Except the good advice. K: Yes. R: Alright. d: And maybe my website. R: Yes. dave-ring.com, neonhemlock.com, and, hey! neonapothecary.com while you're out there. d: True. R: Give that chandler his due. d and K: [laughing] R: We will have a new episode in two weeks, and in the meantime you can find us at @WMBcast, you can find us at Patreon.com/WMBcast, and you can leave a rating and review on your podcast apps because we basically exist to breathe those in and smell the scents and not be creepy about it at all. K: That's a candle we need. R: Rate us highly please, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks everyone for listening!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: The Dancing Plague of 1518 MICE quotient The House of Untold Stories  storyenginedeck.com/demo deckofworlds.com Peter on Twitter and everywhere   Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Episode 66 Transcription Kaelyn: We're talking about tropes today, which is something that I think a lot of people hear spoken about in a negative context: falling back on using too many tropes, or stories following really common tropes. Rekka: And we don't appreciate that kind of shaming. K [laughs]: No, we certainly do not trope sh--see this is gonna be a problem because I was doing research for this and the word ‘trope' is difficult to say over and over again. R: Trope, trope, trope, trope, trope. K: It's, what do they call that, when a word becomes a sound? Semantic satiation. R: Yes. K: Yes. The word ‘trope' has become more of a sound to me and it's sort of lost meaning [laughing] at times but--So quick definitions, there's the actual word ‘trope' comes from Greek, because of course it does, it all does-- R: You mean it isn't a contraction of tightrope? K: It should be, that would be so much better. R: [laughs] K: A literary trope is using figurative language, like words, phrases, images, for artistic effect. So there's a bunch of different kinds of tropes that fall under literary tropes. Things like metaphors, irony, allegory, oxymorons; those are all considered tropes. Hyperbole is another good example of that, really over-exaggerating. The way this came about was, apparently, because it is Greek and it's from Greek theatre, of course, ‘to alter, to direct, to change, to turn'--all of these translations kinda line up with that, but they're considered an important element of classical rhetoric. Especially in Greek theatre where it was very dialogue-heavy, and so you had to sort of use all of these words and everything to paint a picture to explain to the audience what was going on. All of that said, we're not really here to talk about literary tropes today. They're an important story-telling device, though, and they're something that is considered, I would say, necessary to higher literature and writing and if you're panicking going ‘oh my God, I don't know all of this stuff'--well the thing is you're probably doing this anyway and not realizing. R: A lot of writers don't come from writing backgrounds and don't know the terms for the thing, don't stress too much about it. K: We're talking today primarily about story tropes. I think a lot of times you're gonna encounter this in a negative light. It's a frequent criticism I feel like that's leveraged especially against fiction, especially against fantasy and science fiction books and writing; in some areas of fiction it's actually celebrated. R: Right. K: You pick which trope you're gonna write. R: You cannot proceed without mentioning the other half of that, which is that some people are like ‘Okay, I pick my books based on the tropes I wanna read about.' K: Yes. R: Like, ‘Where's my time travel?' K [laughs]: Yeah. We wanted to talk about why that is. We wanted to talk about what story tropes are, and why they're not necessarily as bad and, in our humble opinions-- R: Not so humble. K: --not so humble opinions, as everyone thinks they are. So, definition: what is a story trope? It's a commonly used plot or character device, essentially. A story trope is something that shows up in literature and stories over and over again, to the point that it may actually be a subgenre within a broader genre. R: That's not to say it is an entire plot of a book that shows up over and over again, like the Hero's Journey is not necessarily a trope. K: No. R: The smaller pieces of plot or character might be the trope. Like the farmboy would be a trope. K: Yeah, the farmboy is a trope. The surprise hero is a trope. R: Prophesied one. K: Yeah, the prophesied one; time-travel to go back and reset the future, that could be a trope. The noble outlaw-- R [overlapping]: Right. K: --is a good trope, the secret relative, the-- All of these elements and story parts that are things you just see all the time in books. So if you're going ‘well, I like those'-- R: Right. K: Like yeah, of course you do! R [overlapping]: Yeah. K [laughing]: That's why they're popular! That's why these keep coming up. Anything from like, a secret legacy or an unknown lost child, unfound powers that suddenly appear at just the right time, or anyone being secretly special for some reason. R [overlapping]: [giggles] K: But these are part of what make stories fun. They're not the larger plot, they're the elements that make up the characters and the plot. R: And you can use them like spice in a recipe-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: --to come up with something that is entirely your own but tastes familiar and pleasing. K: Yeah. Now obviously, different genres are going to have different tropes that you see recurring in there. So before we get into why tropes are good, let's talk a little bit about why they're frequently seen as a negative. R: I have feelings about this. K: Okay. R: I think they're frequently seen as a negative because if you come to lean too heavily on tropes, they can make your story feel either derivative or predictable. K: I was gonna say contrived, yeah, but same. R: Don't you ever say that about one of my stories, Kaelyn. K: I would never say that about one of your stories. If you're leaning too heavily on tropes, if you're just pulling things that you know are popular or cool things you read in other books that you went like ‘oh wow that's awesome, I wanna write something like that,' you're almost not writing a story. You're putting together a sequence of events and characters that you liked from other things. R: Is that fanfiction, is that what you're implying? K: Ohhh, oh, there's a--God, I'm not ready to wade into that question! [laughs] R: But we should touch on the fact that tropes are major fanfiction fuel. Sometimes that's the entire point of the piece, is that ‘take this trope and apply it to this IP that I love.' K: Yeah. R: In that case, that can be the goal. To be, not that contrived but obviously, specifically derivative--not in the negative sense of the term, but like you're writing fanfiction, it is derivative of this IP, and you're applying this trope to it because you just think that would be fun. So people can have fun with it. K: Absolutely. R: And not for the right reasons, but it might feed into this impression that tropes are derivative or contrived. K: I think also it goes to storytelling abilities. If your entire book is just laden with secret Targaryens and lost bloodlines and magic powers nobody knew about, chosen ones and prophecies and it's just the entire story is that, it's probably not a great story, because it doesn't sound like there's a lot of room in there for character development and arcs and intricate and original plots. R: Having said that… K: Or, wait, other direction: it may be way too complicated. Because that's a lot of stuff to juggle. R: Well there's that, yeah. Having said that, I don't think you could say that there is a restrained amount of troping in something like Gideon the Ninth. K: No. No, absolutely not. R: So it can be done. K: Here's the thing. That story is set in such an original setting with such original characters, in original worldbuilding and magic system if you will, that I think it more than makes up for all of that. That's just my opinion, ‘cause you know Rekka and I can't get through an episode without referencing Gideon the Ninth and using that as an example of-- R [overlapping]: I think there's one or two. K: [laughing] R: But specifically when you talk about things that are trope-based, or fandom-based, I think you have to acknowledge that there is always an exception to this ‘be careful around fanfic,' or ‘be careful around tropes.' Like ‘don't put too many in'--or! Put them all in! K [laughs]: It's I think a matter of knowing how to use them. I don't think a lot of writers set out with the intention of ‘I am going to write to this trope,' it's just something that happens. R: Although I think a lot of tropes have inspired anthologies. ‘I want this kind of book, I want an anthology full of that kind of story.' K: Yeah. R: And it's one or two tropes smashed together, or it's a trope applied to a certain genre or character type. I think it's happening a lot, where people are looking for a way to find joy. And tropes really are like candy. K: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about why tropes are good, why these things that show up in every story show up in every story--it's because they're fun! R: It's also really good marketing. K: Yes. R: It's a lot easier to come up with comp titles when you're pitching a book if everybody's drawing from a fairly reasonably sized pool of tropes. K: Let's be clear here. These things can go in cycles. I remember a few years ago everyone was retelling or reinterpreting old fairy tales. I felt like that was just something I saw all the time. I will call that a trope, more or less, that is something that speaks to a specific reader and something that somebody's gonna wanna pick up, like ‘oh well I really liked when this person did it, I'm gonna try this book now as well.' R: So that speaks to what you said earlier about them becoming like a niche genre. K: Yeah, absolutely. Young adult fiction, especially within science fiction and fantasy, I think is constantly at the mercy of whatever trope is popular at the time. YA definitely fell to the fairy tale retelling trend at some point; YA books with a central character, usually a young woman or older teenage girl, who was not necessarily a prophesied champion but has to save everyone on her own even though she doesn't want to; science fiction, there's everything from time travel to artificial intelligence to very specific kinds of space battles and things, but! It speaks to a certain reader. K: There are these things that create these subgenres, and that's really helpful for readers, because I think what we're skirting around that nobody wants to say is, you don't want to put readers in a position where they're just reading the same story over and over, but I know a lot of people who just like to read the same story over and over. People who are very into romance novels. R: There're definitely a set of tropes that romance novels have to pick from, just like there are tropes that other genres have to pick from, and when you read a book that you really love, and romance often tickles a specific audience, they want more like that. Think of the first Thor movie where he tries coffee and he says “I like this beverage. Another!” and smashes it down on the floor-- K [overlapping]: Yes! [laughs] R: People will smash their books down on the floor and demand another because they read through it so quickly and it was exactly what they wanted, and they want to feel that feeling again. Just with new characters. K: I'm gonna qualify all this by saying none of this is a criticism of the romance genre. Romance writers a lot of times write to specific tropes: the marriage of convenience, or the marriage of ‘we didn't know each other beforehand but someone found this legal document that our families betrothed us'-- R: Or a fake marriage-- K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: --that turns into a real marriage. K: Co-workers to friends to lovers type thing. R: Only one bed. K: Yes, exactly, exactly. R: These are by the way coming into genre fiction, science fiction and fantasy-- K [overlapping]: Yup. R: Where romance is becoming more welcome in the books. K: Yes. R: Actual romance, as opposed to ‘you are a buxom babe who stowed away on my spaceship therefore we are a couple.' The depth of character is now allowing for these tropes to trickle in as characters get to know each other in a more interesting way, and less classic pairing-off. K: I'm sure most people listening to this know or probably even a family member that just obsessively consumes romance novels. I think back to my grandmother and my aunt having stacks of those mass market paperback ones that all have like, essentially the same cover just different backgrounds and clothes. R: Hey look, when we talk about your cover art, you need to look at what your industry in your genre is-- K [overlapping]: Yes, absolutely! R: --putting on the shelf and you want to communicate that you are making the same promise to the reader. So you have very similar covers in romance, ‘cause there's only so many ways to be austere while still posing two characters together. K [laughing]: I would say that the two genre groups of readers that will most vivaciously consume media are hard military SF and romance, who will just tear through these books and stories, which is fantastic. I have friends that will read at least one, possibly two, romance novels a week. A lot of them do the Kindle Unlimited. R: Yup. K: Because there's a lot of romance novels on Kindle unlimited. R: Well the two systems kinda fed each other. K: Exactly. But, they have their tropes that they like. Forced into a marriage of convenience, or stranded on an island somewhere. R: Those are the good ones. K: Yeah. [laughs] And Kindle will very helpfully keep recommending more and more of those to you, and I don't want anyone to leave thinking I'm putting down those readers for just wanting the same thing over and over again. Books are there to give you comfort and to spark joy and interest, and if that's what you wanna read, if that's what's making you happy, then that's what you should be reading. R: Right. And in that case, tropes are very very good. K: Tropes are incredibly helpful. R: And they're a marketing tool; the people producing the work, they know that their readers like this trope, so an entire world where that trope is kind of central to what's going on is going to delight people. K: Something that I see a lot now, and especially with submissions I was seeing this, was a really hard and concerted effort to avoid tropes. And it's hard to write like that sometimes. Don't get me wrong; there are books out there that are successfully doing it, that are coming up with really original stories. That said, I don't think it's possible to write a full-length novel without having at least a handful of tropes in there. R: Plus, if it's successful and it's original, then someone's going to mimic that. K: It will become a trope on its own, eventually. R [overlapping]: And it becomes a trope. I mean this is where tropes come from, they are not fully forged in the heart of a star. K: [laughs] R: Y'know, they're a process of people recognizing a thing they like in a book and making sure it's repeated. That's exactly what's going on, so you come up with a story that's completely original and you're so proud of it, well, maybe you get to claim being the first, but you're not going to get to claim being the only for very long. K: Tropes go back to basically the genesis of human writing. R: Mhm. K: I mean, we consider the Epic of Gilgamesh to be the oldest more or less complete epic story written down, at this point. It's very clear, if you've ever read it, that even though we don't have anything that came before that, there's elements of the story that were just commonplace storytelling devices of that time. There's other parts of it that then pop up in later epic tales that it's impossible to tell well, was this influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh, or was this influenced by common storytelling tropes of the time and the Epic of Gilgamesh just happens to be the one that lasted the longest that we still have? R: Right. K: If you ever look into the literary history of Robin Hood, Robin Hood as we know him today did not start off like that. R [overlapping]: Right. K: He was just like a straight up highwayman. R: Bandit, at some point yeah. K: Bandit, there we go. He regularly kinda killed people to get their money. But, the character evolved as storytelling tropes evolved. We went from Robin Hood being just a lawless bandit who's funny and laughing while he's doing all of this to, no no he's actually the son of an earl who went off on the Crusades and came back and he's stealing from the rich and giving to the needy. Yeah Robin Hood was just straight up stealing originally-- R [overlapping]: Wow. K: --in all of these. [laughs] R: Until suddenly he wasn't. K: Until suddenly he wasn't! R: And someday in the future, those tropes might change, and the story of Robin Hood would be told differently, and everyone would think that was the best version. K: There's actually a lot of what we would probably think of as ‘modern' tropes that show up in medieval European literature. The special chosen one is very tied to Arthurian legend, which again, if you ever wanna try to put that together, go and--good luck. R [laughing]: You figure that out, we're not doing it for you. K: No [laughs], no. That's another good example of the evolution of these tropes. And then there's actually like conflict and everyone was writing different versions of Arthur but because there was no printing press at the time, and there certainly wasn't any form of mass communication, there's all of these different versions of what virtues and what values they wanted to highlight in Arthur, based on what was common storytelling at that time. I think that there is this push to write something no one's ever written, and the thing is you're never gonna do that. R: And maybe it's not even something you wanna aspire to do. K: No, and it's okay for authors to write a story based on the story they wanna tell, not based on like, ‘I need to be the most original writer in the history of writing.' That said, there are definitely readers out there who are always looking for something they've never seen before. Maybe you can write one of those! But, it's still going to have tropes in it. R: Yeah. K: They are inescapable. They are inevitable. R: Yeah, the level of trope that you include might go up or down, depending on your story, but. Don't revise your draft and like strip out everything that was fun at the time, just because you've seen it before. K: Rekka and I are obviously coming from a place of primarily Western-fueled literature. R: Right. K: Y'know, if you get into different parts of the world, different storytelling traditions, they will also have their own tropes. [laughs] R: Yeah, they're not gonna be the same tropes, so if you wanna totally wow a Western audience just go borrow someone else's tropes. K: Prophecy and chosen one's just all over the historical literature, there's mythical places and people with secret lineages, I think that's something you're gonna come across no matter what, because uh. Almost like humanity just really enjoys those facets of storytelling. So. But yeah anyway, when I would get submissions sometimes that I could tell there was a writer that was just trying to be really really original, to just stay away from anything that may have been done before. One of the things I always thought was, “I don't know how I'm going to sell this to anyone.” R: Right, ‘cause what do you compare it to? K: Yeah, that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. But it does make things very difficult. Because if you're trying to describe something in the context of ‘well do you like this thing? You may also like this'-- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: --and you're not able to do that, it's hard to sell a book. R: Right. Exactly. And that's how the conversations always start, you got the elevator pitches, you've got the comp books. And those are the quickest way to get people's attention, and now you've cut yourself off from that. K: Yeah exactly. That said, nothing wrong with trying to be original. Just be aware it could be, depending on how original you're going, it could be a little bit of an uphill battle. Again, I will use Gideon the Ninth as a weird pitch-- R [overlapping]: [laughs] K [laughing]: --for that book, ‘lesbian necromancers in a broken down palace in space,' and don't get me wrong, that definitely piqued my interest, but you can see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea. R: And if it's the first original book to present this-- K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: --to a major publisher, they're going to say, “Who do we put this on the shelf next to? Where do we market this? We don't use these tropes.” K: Yep. R: “How do we do?” Y'know? K: [laughs] R: It takes a brave publisher to try something new, even if that new thing is built out of all these amazing fantastic fun tropes. K: Yeah, exactly. R: So you can be original, and still combine all these tropes, and just do it in a way that makes people go, “Sorry, what? Say that again?!” K: That's kind of one more thing that I would like to talk about. We skirted around Gideon the Ninth-- R: I don't think we skirted around it. K: Well--is just trope after trope and I said yeah, but it's very original in everything else. So if you have sort of what you'd think of as like ‘ugh is this story too cookie-cutter, is it too predictable and too tropey?' the thing you need to then consider is, alright but everything else I have in here, the worldbuilding, the characters, the technology or the magic system, is that original? You can make up for a lot by having a really original, engaging world that this is set in, and writing really great characters that we're cheering for and boy do we really want them to be the long-lost secret half-sister of the wizard-- R: Right. K: We're just cheering so hard for her, I want for her to have magic powers. So-- [laughs] R: Especially if you start to lead toward a trope, and you don't deliver on it, your readers are going to be pretty upset with you. K: Or maybe they'll go, ‘wow that's awesome. I wanna write something like that.' R: And then it becomes a trope again. K: Exactly. R: Alright, is there anything else tropey to discuss? K: They're an endless cycle. R: Get your innertube and just jump into the lazy river of tropes, and-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: And enjoy, just come around again and it'll be good. Just write your story. K: Yeah. R: If it's got tropes in it, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's cool. It will soon. K [laughing]: And they're not lazy, let's be clear! R: They're not! K: No, yeah-- R: But that's what they call it at a theme park when they jump in with the innertube-- K: No no I'm just, yeah. R: Okay! So, tropes are good. If anyone tells you otherwise just take your book somewhere else. Someone wants them. They want them very very badly. K: Also, being constantly rejected and not seeing the brilliance of a character is a good trope too. R: Yes. And, going for the tropes of podcasting, you can find us online @wmbcast on Twitter and Instagram, and also at Patreon. And if you would be so kind to leave a rating and review, we would love to read it on the air. You could also ask us questions at any of those social media-- K [overlapping]: We love questions. R: --accounts. That can feed a future tropey episode. Or maybe not tropey, I don't know! We'll find out when you ask us questions. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: The Dancing Plague of 1518 MICE quotient The House of Untold Stories  storyenginedeck.com/demo deckofworlds.com Peter on Twitter and everywhere   Transcript (by Rekka, uncaught mistakes by Temi)   [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books.   Rekka: Peter, I'm going to have you introduce yourself—because I completely failed to have you pronounce your name for me before we started recording—and tell us how you came to stories.   Peter: Yeah. so my name is Peter Chiykowski, or at least that's how I say it. And I write, I illustrate I do some graphic design. I've designed some creative tools for writers and artists and storytellers. And I do create content for tabletop RPGs. And I write songs as well—Um mostly like comedy styled songs. But I do, I do a bunch of things creatively. And I would say that story has been a very big link between them. And definitely one of my passion areas is looking at how different creative disciplines and different like creative techniques and skillsets can combine to create story in different ways or to tell stories in different ways. Or even if like you're not doing something multimedia and you're only working in your one medium, how learning from other mediums gives you more tools for telling stories.   Peter: And I always find that really exciting. But yeah, I think like my, before I was writing anything as a kid, I loved role-playing games. I remember there was this sort of very improvised six-sided die-based game that my friends and I would play in at recess in like grade three that was, there were no rules written down. I don't think it was based on anything, but I do think that we, one of our dads had played D&D and had somehow rubbed off the concept of like rolling dice to tell a story and telling a story collectively. And there was no table top because we were not at a table. We were like out on the playground at recess, but we would like bowl these dice across the entire playground and then run and see what the number was and the story would evolve from there.   Peter: And it was all kinds of silly fantasy adventure stuff. That's the first time that I remember like really getting hooked into telling the story and getting excited about collaborative storytelling. And then it's all been downhill from there. Once, once, once tabletop roleplay gets its hooks into you you, you get, yeah, you look for any avenue to tell stories. So I've done everything from like poetry to short fiction. I've written campaigns for tabletop RPGs, like Ember Wind. I wrote a bunch of poems for a video game. That's now unintended switch called Fracter. We were trying to tell story, but also give clues for solving puzzles in this like existential platform or game, called Fracter. And I've just kind of loved playing in the story space and finding different ways to tell stories. Yeah, and that's kind of the weird mixed bag of experiences that I, I come to story with, but it's such a, such a passion area for me.   Rekka: It does seem like you're absolutely perfect for the topic that we're going to talk about today. You're the perfect person to put this together, and that is the Story Engine, which is almost a role-playing game, almost a multiplayer game.   Kaelyn: I was trying to describe this to somebody recently and I couldn't. So maybe you can.   Rekka: Yeah, well, let's, you're the perfect person because you've probably seen all the marketing. If you didn't create it all yourself for the Story Engine, what is it? And how did you conceive of it? Like, did it come out of a need or did it come out of a like 10 minute space of time where you weren't actually doing something else? Cause it sounds like you're as busy as we are.   Peter: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely wear too many creative hats and I jump from project to project, but Story Engine was something that was definitely, it was definitely filling a need that I had. I write a lot of micro fiction. Like one of my more consistent projects I've worked on is called the shortest story and it's basically, I call them postcard stories. They're stories that fit on postcards. And I actually format them in like a, as like a four by six style postcard, but it's text over an image. And it's meant to be like a little pocket universe that you, you read something from, or like a, a story that's almost an alternate life or a path you never took in your own life. That's that your you get to read. So I called them like post "postcards from alternate worlds" or "postcards from impossible worlds" is kind of like the tagline for that project. And what I was finding, I used to write longer fiction. I used to write poetry and longer fiction and submit to journals. And when I was really getting into the grind of like trying to become a creative full-time and I was working a full-time job, and then also trying to do comics on the side and publishing there was just like, I, it was so hard to maintain enough energy and to find inspiration. And there was so much pressure on the rare pockets of creative time that I would find that I'd often block myself out from creating by feeling like I'd have to optimize this hour and a half I have before work. There's so much pressure cause like maybe I won't have time for another week and I would freak myself out by, by putting that pressure on it.   Peter: And it took a lot of joy out of the creative process. And I found that I was having less and less time to create longer projects as a result, like even long short fiction, like anything longer than a thousand words. So I started creating micro fiction. And this was amazing for me because it meant that I could like pick up a project or pick something up and put it down an hour and a half later and feel like I've created something that stands on its own. That's like a contained creative ecosystem. And that I feel good about it and I can share that with people. And what I found is that I was getting a lot of the ideas from, for stories, from a combination of looking up like publicly available free-for-use photography.   Peter: So I would, I would see an image and the image would start something in my head. And then sometimes it wouldn't be the image. It would be like, I'd have a sense of a conflict coming in as a story seed in my head that like, oh, I want to have a story about somebody who has to choose between like a friend and like a dream that matters to them. And that would be kind of the story seed or it would sometimes cement like the idea of a particular character. Like I'd love to do a story from the perspective of like an entomologist, like suddenly all of an entomologist in my head. So I was paying attention to what was inspiring a lot of these stories seeds in where a lot of the stories were coming from and trying to think like, well, how can I create a tool that would help other people find stories, seeds, or build their own stories, seeds from the parts that speak to them?   Peter: And that's when I started playing with the idea of a story prompting deck and, you know, it's not the first story prompting deck. There's, there's many of these tools out there and people create them in different ways. But I wanted to create something that was really open-ended because I find that with a lot of writing prompts, they're really interesting, but sometimes the prompt is so closed as a system, but it doesn't really give you room to create your own idea. It's just kind of there to see, like, what's your take on this? And that's great, but it's hard to generate a lot of, like, it's hard for those ideas to be reusable. If the card has a really closed system where like the only thing you can do with it is this. Then once you've gone through 60 cards, the deck is is not obsolete, but like you've tapped it out.   Peter: And that's like, great from a marketing perspective, because then you can sell someone the next deck, but I really wanted to create something that was like, you could just keep using it forever. And the creative force behind it was not the idea of putting the cards, but using the cards as a space for someone to create their own idea or bring their own idea to the spread. So from there, it was basically like mixing a bunch of different influences to create a tool that would do this. So like, it was a huge inspiration from tarot. You know, this is a system of cards it's been used for hundreds of years to understand and analyze patterns and have people tell their story or understand their lives in ways that make sense. And that are like interpretable and re interpretable that you can rotate to create new meanings.   Peter: And like all of that went into the deck. Some of it was borrowed consciously from tarot and some of it was like I realized afterwards, I, oh, that's basically what tarot does. Like the fact that you can combine the cards in different spreads and patterns is like, it was very consciously tarot inspired. And then the other like influence that I like to acknowledge it that I think was really big is basically this one sentence from a Canadian novelist who wrote a lot about story and what a story and Douglas Glover wrote in a book called the enamored night that a story consists of someone wanting something and having trouble getting it. And that's such a simple sentence and I don't, I don't generally like, like reductive definitions of this is what a story is, and this is under, this is what this counts as writing and this doesn't that's, those definitions are often very artificial, but I do think that's one really helpful tool for understanding the anatomy of story and how you can combine these parts and, and slot different things in for who the someone is and what they want and what the trouble is.   Peter: And if you look at the Story Engine deck, a lot of the w five card types map against the elements in those sentence and that sentence where like the, someone is the agent card, it's that your character and the wanting is the engine card. It's the thing that motivates them. The something that they want is the anchor, usually an anchor card or another agent card. And then the trouble is the conflict card. And then the aspect cards are there to, to layer more detailed or make the story feel like more like your own. So that was kinda the other influence that, that came together to make this tool. But it's, it's hard to explain what it is cause it's very, like, it is a story prompting system, but it's very, open-ended like, you can play it like it's an RPG. You can use it as inspiration for a solo RPG. You can use it to just create character ideas. You can use it to create art prompts. Like it's, it's hard to market a multi-tool because you kind of need to tell people like a simple story about what it's going to do for them.   Kaelyn: But you did a great job marketing it because this was on Kickstarter and oh boy, did you hit your goal there!   Peter: Yeah. This, this Kickstarter took off in a much bigger way than I had anticipated. I launched it in, I think September, 2019, and I was blown away by how fast it took off. And I had thought at the time that I was launching like a new collection of my stories and then also, "Hey, this cool tool that went into creating a lot of these stories and that might help you." And very quickly it became like, okay, there's a book there. That's just going to be an add on the main thing was like, people were really interested in the deck and what it could do.   Kaelyn: And do you have how many booster packs now at this point? 6?   Peter: Yeah. So the, the, the core deck that, that, that launched off that Kickstarter was one main deck, three expansions and six boosters. So that way people can like dabble with different genres and they can kind of almost make their own like genre cocktails by combining different elements from different genres. And then the latest Kickstarter for my world building deck, the Deck of Worlds that that's introducing three new expansions for the Story Engine and six new boosters for the Story Engine, so that's going to be 12 and six. And the main deck ended up a bunch of expansions for the world building deck. So there's a lot of cards.   Kaelyn: That is, yeah, that is a lot. Wow. That's awesome.   Peter: What I tried to do with both those systems is make them so that it's like, it's about how you layer the cards. Like I think the, just the main deck, that main Story Engine deck has 32 billion possible permutations, just, just including the main deck, just in the simple prompt format where you have the five, one of each card of the five cards laid out in a certain order. And so like the extra stuff there in case you want to bring in genre elements, or you want more to work with, but like, I tried to make a system where if you just want the core deck that's gonna like, that should do you for, for, for decades of story ideas, if you personally exhaust all of the possible combinations in your deck in your lifetime, you know, I, I will personally come and bring you an expansion.   Rekka: Challenge accepted. Well, I happen to have a base Story Engine deck with me, and I was looking through it and looking through the instruction booklet and you're right. Like, there are so many ways that you could do a story with this, lay them out. You were talking about like the tarot arrangements. It's very much like that. The direction that you read your cards in, the way that you layer them, the orientation of them, turning them so that they fit your story more. But I also really appreciate how much of the instruction booklet is, like "throw out whatever is holding you back." And they're also very broad. Like I realized like a science fiction writer and a romance writer could get the same spread and write two very different books. You know, and obviously that was your intention, but it really does open it up rather than close it down.   Rekka: Like, you know, you hear the story prompt, like, "oh, if you're stuck, make something explode." Well, it, explosion is a very specific thing, but yours might be something like, you know, a possessed assassin walks in kind of thing. Like, and that works in any genre. I mean, like, you know, there's no specificity to these cards, it's that our brains do all the work of figuring out what that means for the way we write, the way we write stories, or the specific story we're talking about. What was the process of narrowing down something that you felt confident enough in to print? Because that's a scary thing for me as a graphic designer also, like when it's time to actually print the thing, you're like, okay, that means no more revisions, you know. How'd you get to that point?   Peter: Yeah. So I eased myself into it a few ways and I definitely had had help and input. I I had a brain trust that I was emailing with questions usually with more specific focused questions around like like the name for the agent deck versus it could have been called the character deck or like "what are your thoughts and how these come together?" But there were a few people who I handed early prototypes to, and just like, didn't tell them what it was and asked them to just play with it and see what came out and then got their feedback. And then within the specific questions. And definitely I got some really, really helpful feedback, like the entire system of using... When I first conceived it. I only had in mind that basic spread the story seed. That's just like basically the first page of the the guide book now.   Peter: And it was my friend Cintain, who's done a lot of tarot reading. And who's also a writer who looked at it and said actually this was we were, at the time we were doing like a Skype call or a video call. So I had the deck and he would tell me what to do with it. And he said, "okay, I want you to tell me this card and then this card, and then this type of card and this, and then do the same thing backwards." And he created what is pretty close to now, the circle of fate format. And he's like, "I want to, like, when you give me those cards, I want to play, play with it and like create different spreads and directions." And this is like, you know, tarot, once you get to advanced tarot, creating different styles of spreads can be its own art.   Peter: And that really blew my mind. And that really opened up like a huge amount of functionality in the deck because it was both like getting to create these different pre-packaged spreads that people could use and then also just trying to teach people to treat the deck as a system where like once you've learned the spreads, what I've really done is kind of given you the basic building blocks for creating your own spreads and patterns. And that's helpful not only because it gets you more use out of the deck, but it also helps you realize that story itself is malleable. Story itself is modular. You can always out a character in switch in a different character and see how that changes the particular resonances of their struggle. Or you can transfer a character's motivation from one object or character to another, and that creates a change in the story or a shift in the story. How all of these elements are things you can play with and have fun. And I think that the reason that it really helps dismantle a lot of what I, you know, we all have theories about what writer's block is and if it's real, what it, whatever it is, it definitely there - people get stuck.   Kaelyn: It's, it's real. What it's a function of, I can't say, but it is real.   Peter: Yeah. And I think people come at writer's block for different reasons and, and can solve it in different ways. But I think that one of the things that helps about this tool is that A, it brings a sense of play back to writing and to story development. And B it helps you make choices that, you know, you can undo. Okay. Cause sometimes the hard part, the, the, where you get locked up is feeling like, well, there's so many directions I can go and I don't want to go down the wrong one. And then I see what the deck, so it lets you literally visualize, like here are the choices that I've made about what I'm including in the story and what the story is. And if this one starts to not work for me, I can just chuck that card and replace it or I can rotate the card because this meaning this particular interpretation isn't quite working for me.   Peter: But if I turn that card 90 degrees, now I have a new meaning that I'm tapping and that's one that I'm connecting with. And it also limits the choices that you're dealing with. You're not dealing with 32 billion story ideas at once. You're dealing with the two to four options per card and making those limited choices that you can always redo. And it, I think it helps people get to the starting line where like, they're just having fun with the story and pass those like really pressuring questions of like, is this good enough of an idea to write about? Or where am I going with this?   Kaelyn: It's very interesting because in my experience, in my encounters, you know, with writers over the years, I, the, again, I hate the binary. I hate, you know, it's this or this, but like, I will say like there's two dominant large groups that I come into contact with people who have a story in their heads already that they just really want to write and people who really want to write, but don't have a story. And they each are coming across like gonna come across their own problems, their own conflicts in that. But you know, the people who are like, like you and Rekka like writers and creatives and are, you know, constantly coming up and generating new ideas. What I really liked about this deck was like, I think every, I think like to the outside world, we hear like, oh, a writer, like, you know, will they just come up with a story and then they write it. It's like, that is not how this works. And what's really cool about this deck is kind of, you can take all of those elements, break them out into pieces that you can see, move and shift them around, modify them, tweak them to, you know, where you want it to go. And could you do this on a piece of paper? Sure. But one, it's not as fun to, it's not as organized and three, these are colorful.   Rekka: I also think there's a certain element and probably not for everyone, but like the hand of fate, you know, that you've been dealt these cards, you've drawn them. And then you feel like this is a challenge that I can rise to as opposed to like, well, that's my crummy idea. Something else would be better.   Kaelyn: And I think that's why anthologies are such a good thing for emerging or new writers because it gives you something—it's a challenge in some regards. So it's also very good for, you know, experienced writers—but it gives you something saying, I need this. And I think that's one of the things that's so scary about. Just write a novel is it's. So open-ended, it's just   Rekka: Also long. A long commitment to an open-ended idea that you came up with in silence. Yeah.   Kaelyn: And it's like, well, what do you want me to write? And so then there's this pressure to go, well, what's popular? What's everyone going to read? Well, by the time you get this written and published, that's not going to matter. So don't worry about that. Okay. Well, what do I like? Well, I like these things. I'm not sure I can write a whole book about that and I'm worried it will ruin that thing for me. So I, it is good to either have someone give you, or in the case of the Story Engine, give yourself direction in a way to organize your thoughts.   Rekka: And that was one thing that occurred to me was like very frequently when I start getting the seed of an idea, it's a concept; it's a sentence. It's like elements, ingredients, like you said, here are things I like, I want to combine them. Do I have a plot? No.   Kaelyn: Those aren't important.   Rekka: Well, eventually you're supposed to maybe have a plot. And what I like about the Story Engine deck is that in your instructions, you say like if you know an aspect or if you're writing in an existing world, there are parts of this. You can lock in place, you can go and dig and find the cartoon to read or write it, you know, yourself or whatever or you just know that it's locked in what you're looking for are the other elements, which create a plot. And that just, I knew the Story Engine deck was for creating ideas, but I didn't realize what it could do for the ideas I already have and getting them to the point where I'm ready to write something with them.   Rekka: Cause I'll let something percolate for a year or more and just write it, write what I know down so that I don't forget it, but it can take a long time before I figure out how that fits into point A to point B to point C and how many characters and what are their desires and all the things that could be decided for me, or at least inspired for me by drawing a random card and just getting an idea. And now, do I think that writing that story from the story engine would get me the same story that I would have come up with after a year or more of letting a story percolate? Probably not, but it's really interesting. The immediate sense of, "oh, I know what to do with that." When you get a suggestion, like Kaelyn was saying an anthology theme, all of a sudden you're like, "oh. Oh, I know what to do with that."   Rekka: And a story engine deck really reads to me in a similar way that like what I have put, you know, a, a series of things together, like the cards are going to come out in whatever orientation I choose? Almost absolutely not. You know, unless I'm really being finicky and like digging for the cards I want across the entire thing. And then maybe I'm just drawing out an idea. I didn't know I had, which is also useful. It's really flexible. And I really, I, I I'm really impressed by that. There's a lot, there's a lot of brain in this box.   Kaelyn: I think that one of the things that is very, as you know—that's exactly it, there's a lot of brain in this box, but really it's just, it's just kind of leeching onto your brain and like, you know, like some little like computer chip, that's going like, "ehhhh, it's a little bit of a mess in here. Let's, let's clean this up." but I think what is good about it is it gives writers a way to provide their own prompts, to, you know, just take things that maybe they wouldn't have considered, but, or it could be interesting, engaging, advancing elements to a story that's sort of half exists in their head already. You don't need to come to this with a blank slate.   Peter: Yeah. Yeah. You can come with as much of the story as you have formed and work with what you've already got, or you can come with nothing and just it'll lay out some track for you and you don't have to use all the elements of the track that you lay out. You can swap things out, you can ignore it. Like I ignore parts of the prompt all the time, because I just wanted to get started on. I wanted to find something to be excited enough about that I just start writing. And if that's this half of the prompt and not this half, then I'm going to pretend that the card I drew was actually this, cause this works better in my head, but the rest of it, I'm going to use the conflict and I'm going to use the aspect and the the descriptive part. And I'm going to use that the story is anchored in some way on a meal. A meal between two people or something. Cause that's what I drew. But yeah, like I said, like there's yeah, the reason that it works is because the brain, the brain is not in the box. I would, I would counter that and say like, the brain is 100%.   Rekka: No, I'm sorry. You can't come on our podcast and tell us we're wrong. I'm talking about like the brain that put this together neatly and you managed to get out of the way of the end user.   Peter: That was exactly. That's yeah. That's exactly the language that I use when I talk about it. It was getting out of the way of people and letting them bring their ideas to it. Like there were early drafts of this that were more focused on like... Like one thing I love about the writing prompts subreddit on Reddit is that there's some really interesting creative prompts that are just like, wow, I never would've thought of that in a million years. But the thing that I have trouble with is that they're always very closed. Like it's almost always like write your version of this highly specific high concept premise. And so there's less mileage to work with there. And I found that I was trying to do some of the, the, like, I want to create a really dazzling idea with the writing in some of the early drafts.   Peter: And the more I tried to make that work, the more that those ideas couldn't plug very easily into A, like what the reader wanted to do with it, or sorry, what the writer wanted to do with it. The creator wanted to do with it, the end user. The more it made it hard for them to read something into it or bring their own idea to it. The more I realized those ideas aren't working and then the more trouble that those ideas had plugging into other cards and connecting to other cards in an open-ended way that also ended up being what I discarded. So I ended up like scratching a bunch of material that I thought was extraordinarily clever. But that really wouldn't have served the end purpose and like the question that I asked myself now when I'm looking at prompts and deciding like, will this work is is it going to be useful for the writer, for the end user?   Peter: And is it going to leave enough room for them to bring their own gift basically? Like it's a little bit like button soup, the story button soup, where like someone starts off and like, "oh, I'm gonna make this special soup. The first thing I need is a button and then, oh, hold on. Do you have any carrots? Do you have any...?" And you know, the, the town brings ingredients. And it's very much that, like it's, it's the, the, the deck is a button that gets you started making a soup and it's just an excuse for soup and who doesn't, who doesn't want an excuse for soup? That's my new, that's my new marketing logline. "The Story Engine is an excuse for soup."   Rekka: Yeah. And the the cleverness is, has gotta be tempting, but the, the terms that you ended up using for example, I just drawing a random card. I have these are the agent cards, the four corners, or the four sides of this card are an introvert, a dreamer, a grump, a wanderer. Those are pretty dry and pretty basic terms. And even so, whatever genre you like to write in, whatever world is, you know, your brain is currently marinating in, you've already got an idea of who each of those four people are, and they're not the same as mine. And that's, that's really nice. And that can not be easy to create that openness, like you were saying.   Peter: It took a lot of, a lot of rebalancing the cards and the, the, what was going onto the cues. One thing that I found was really important was like some of the play tests that I did early on, some of them were with writers and creative people who could like get a simple prompt and spin out this fantastical universe and they could run with it. And then I would also show it to people who work in science and they would have like a very literal interpretation of what the cards would mean. So I realized quickly that like, while the primary target is writers, there's lots of different ways to use cards. And some people don't want the open ended things. Some people want literal prompts. So for the main deck, especially the prompts are designed to be... So like the agent cards are balanced in a particular way where there's a main, very open-ended prompt. That is the prompt that faces you when the card is in its like neutral position, basically. The cards are meant to not really read as being like this way is up or down, but there is kind of a neutral position. So that that's meant to be the most open-ended generic interpretation on that card. And then the other three around the edges are different facets of that concept. Either zoomed in on, in a more specific detail or blown up in a in a bigger, more exaggerated way.   Rekka: So the neutral way is the way that has like the little portrait.   Peter: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the healer is the generic sense. Whereas a therapist is a very specific expression of, of a healer. So if someone who was being very literal got that card and like, didn't really know what to imagine for a healer, it's too big, therapist gives them a very specific thing that they can work with. We all know roughly what a therapist does and, and that would give you a very literal way to start. And that's, I think for the other card that you drew, I think grump was the thing where like we all, literally we can understand what a grump is pretty literally. Yeah. whereas an introvert it's more generic that gives you a lot more room to operate. A wanderer is a bit more specific and active. So there was a, there was a lot of thought that went into how we balanced the levels of narrow prompt versus broad prompt, especially on the agents for the anchors bouncing those cards is more a function of making sure that every card has a setting, a prop something that's a little less non-literal and more interpretable and that all of those felt thematically linked.   Peter: So like a prison and a cage and a key are all thematically linked. And it's meant to keep things in a bit, a bit of a tight space so that people aren't, it doesn't feel like they're dealing with a huge scattershot of different ideas at the same time. Like they understand, okay, I'm thinking about introverts. And I'm thinking about what it means to withdraw from people and that's kind of a headspace you're in for the character, and they can choose different ways to express that same thing when the same balancing act went into the anchors. So yeah, again, a lot of the goal was to put my brain power and not into like making the individual cards impressive, but for removing as many barriers to the system, just working out of the box as possible by balancing things. And like the, it was interesting because for the, the world building deck, world building in some ways is a more specific and yet even more broad and open thing to do. Because there's so many ways to build what is a world and what differentiates one area from another, and what, what makes us having interesting, like there's so many different ways you can differentiate a setting and figuring out, figuring out how to balance those cards was its own...   Peter: Like I had to start again, like none of the lessons that I learned from Story Engine got to be carried over. Like I completely had to start from ground zero again. And and it took, it took a long time to get that one, right. Oh my gosh. I think like Story Engine came together fairly quickly, I think because I had a pretty intuitive model of how I wanted it to work between tarot and that sort of definition of story that has often informed my storytelling choices. But yeah, the world building one, I, that one took so many more iterations to get the balance on those cards. Right.   Kaelyn: So how did you have to tackle the world building deck versus, you know, the story and character building one? And I know it is more of the first, the first set is more of a story-building, but there's definitely some character elements to it as well. Are you going to do a character building one at some point?   Peter: I I've thought about that, but honestly, the, the Story Engine does so much character building stuff and it can be, you can, you can do informed choices with it to make so many different types of characters that I don't think there'd be a whole lot to add to it. Like, I, I, I'm not saying no to that, but I feel like the main thing does such a good job of it. And I don't like developing products just to have new products. Like I would really like to give people something that, that adds a ton of value to their creative process. And right now, I don't know how to add enough value to the character creation process that isn't already there in the Story Engine deck. So that's an idea that's like it's in my notebook, but unless I really have an aha moment where I'm like, oh, this is a way to really open this process up for people and I can justify their time and explaining why this is different from this thing I've already made. Then I'll definitely do that.   Rekka: They need a deck to help you create decks.   Peter: Oh, now that would, I would get, I would, that would be perfect. I could retire, I could retire young and and just let that work. So the, the, the concept that I'm kicking around right now in my head is an open-ended solo RPG that you play by writing. And so it's meant to be like a, almost a campaign where at the end of it, you have 50 new pieces of writing, inspired by different things. And that might actually use draws from the Story Engine deck to generate the content that you're playing in. But the goal is that you write the scene. So it's like a solo thing. But that is basically as far as I've gotten on developing it is that would be really fun and cool. And how the heck would that work? And I have not I've yet to answer even a single part of that question, but it's kicking around in my head cause the other decks have everything you need to generate the content.   Peter: And then the goal is to just give you more reasons to write. And also the thing that I think I'm really after with this idea is like the things that make us love RPGs, the things that like, that make us feel like we're advancing and we're developing a character and we're part of a story and we're... You know, also the cool stuff. Like I got cool equipment and I leveled up like all those things that, that make games easy to say yes to would be amazing if we could turn those things toward generating, you know, our, toward pursuing our creative goals. So being able to like hijack some of those, those dopamine button pushes that we get from from games and make that something that benefits the creative process, I think would be really cool. So that's, that's the that was my, my latest dog walk idea that I've been obsessing over, but not letting myself get too deep into because I have I still have a lot to of like just card rebalancing and design exports have to do with Decker worlds. And I, I like to land one plane before I take off with another one. So that's, that's on the back burner, but it's not quite a deck for making decks, but it is a deck for using decks for making ideas. Yeah. Yeah. So that'd be, that'd be interesting to see how that plays it. Yeah.   Rekka: I haven't seen the world building deck. Is it as broad as the Story Engine in that, like, it would work for somebody writing a contemporary story on Earth and they just needed the situation and that like the community level, as much as it would be for someone like me who likes to write stories where they've never even heard of earth and also I throw physics out the window? So does it work on that broad scale like the Story Engine does and how much of a challenge was it to decide and then cater to ?   Peter: What the world building deck does is create lore. And as long as you're comfortable with like your lore set in the real world being invented lower, which a lot of us are then that's totally, it works for that. It's not what I designed it for, but it definitely works for that. So it runs on, on six types of cards rather than five for the story engine. Two of those cards are almost for like assembling map pieces. So there's like a drone photography style image of different types of terrain and landscapes for the region deck, which kind of sets up like you're dealing with forest land or river land or wetland or canyons or mountains or beach, like it sets a kind of a train type up for you. And then there's a landmark deck, which gives you specific points of interest.   Peter: Some of which are I say human-made and human, here's a short form for whoever made it doesn't have to be humans, but are constructed things. And some of which are naturally occurring things. Like when you have like a, a giant rock or an interesting tree or a waterfall. So you can definitely create these interesting dynamic settings using those. And all of the cards in the main deck are things that exist normally in our reality on Earth. And then there's a namesake deck, which basically you, you pair that with either a landmark or a region. And it gives a specific nickname to that area. I find that this is one of my favorite decks because it immediately creates a sense of lore. So you might end up with you draw like a, a creation that really got sunk into my head.   Peter: Recently when I was playing around with it, it was I think I drew the card arena for landmark or an arena. And then I drew of chimes for the namesake card. So it was the arena of chimes. And for some reason I started thinking about this like a gladiatorial arena where the bones of the dead are hung as like wind chimes, after they fall. And that, I just imagined these rafters all, like, you have this pit in the middle and you have these rafters all around where every time the wind blows through it, and it was set in like a barren area without much wind cover. You just hear that gentle clinking and like the dead are speaking around you and warning you of what could come.   Kaelyn: Real quick Rekka, because I'm sure when you heard that you came up with something mentally. Cause I did too. And it was completely different from yours. I was, I was thinking more of same thing, kind of like a fighting arena, but full of like strange metal poles and like, you know, the chaos of the like bouncing off of that and like making like the screaming and the clanking of swords, you know, everything with that.   Peter: Yeah. So the chimes are those active combat sounds. Yeah.   Kaelyn: Yeah. Well, like also just, you know, like just pieces of metal will be the, you know, naturally occurring or put there sticking up like round sticking up of the ground. So yeah.   Peter: You could do so much cool choreography with that too. Right. Like the swinging on the poles and like gymnastics.   Kaelyn: Yeah. Like, you know, and then like of course like picturing like Roman gladiators, where they used to like put, you know, animals and like captured peoples in there and like have them like hunted. I've got like some weird Hunger Games stuff going on in my head now. So yeah. So, no, it's very funny because like you said that, and you went one direction, I went a completely different direction, but they still, you know, are kind of functionally doing the same thing a little bit.   Rekka: But from the same prompt yes. Which is the perfect example of how flexible this is.   Peter: Yeah. So that's those, those are three of the decks and those, those kind of create your almost like map pieces and you can assemble different shapes out of these cards by tucking them in different patterns. And you can assemble what I call micro setting clusters, and you assemble the clusters into a world map and you can actually apply a scale to it. You can explore it. And then you can use the Story Engine to furnish that world with your characters, with conflicts, with artifacts and other places of interest. But the other three card types, this was the really hard part because I didn't want to do more than six card types. Cause if you've done more than six card types, you've made something that's just too complicated to use out of the box. And there's so many different aspects of what makes a world interesting.   Peter: And it was also, it's very different how you furnish a an, uncolonized setting, like a, just a natural setting versus a space that has been either colonized or urbanized in some way. And we're using the impact of, of civilization. So like how, how do you acknowledge all the different ways that land can be used and that people can co-exist and there's tons of them. So what I ended up doing for my mental categories was coming up with an origin deck, which gives you a fixed point in the past which either is how this place was created or a significant event that shaped it or previous use that it had or some function that's, that's an anchor point in its past for the origin deck. And then there's an attributes deck, which is the current day status quo, how the space is used or what it's known for, or what lives there.   Peter: And then a advent deck, which are current changes that are happening right now that could impact the future of this place. And that category basically past present future is what I think really finally unlocked the worldly aspects because it let me cover so much more material on the cards themselves that way, rather than trying to do like a deck, that's just the politics and a deck that's just the ecosystem at a deck that's just fashion and a deck like that... That's too many decks. What this does is it lets you sprinkle out different types of world, building detail and starting points for prompts. Like it's known for a particular style of textile or it's known for its scholars, or it has an anarchic government system or they worship nature. Like there's so many different things you can bring into that.   Peter: And those all went into the attributes deck, but it lets you still create kind of a larger sense of narrative for the place that you have. And it sets up your setting as a space for story to happen because it gives you here's where they were in the past. Here's where they are now. And here's what's happening that could change the future. And that advent deck that is that change for the future is such a great entry point for telling stories because it's usually the former of a crisis or a change. And it's something where like a Dungeons and Dragons party could get involved and insert themselves into the conflict and try and do something involving it or where your main characters could. This is their inciting incident, is that there's a new tax being levied on like a staple food. That's a really interesting point for like maybe that's where your character starts to to, to become radicalized and then resisting the government, or it's what inspires them to, okay, well, I'm going to grow my own food or like, you know, there's so many different ways that you can use that as a launching point for story.   Peter: But getting to that point where I realized that like there are too many different categories of like how to differentiate an area. So to break the categories out, do that as looking at a space across time, and then it lets you cover so many different phases within the deck that took a long time to get there, like so many different iterations.   Kaelyn: It sounds like it. Yeah, but it sounds awesome. Yeah. I love that. As you know, looking at this, not establishing like a static place and people and culture, but rather like, you know, looking at this, like, what was it, what is it now? What is it going to be?   Peter: Yeah, yeah.   Rekka: Kaelyn Is a student of history. So this is really tickling all the right spots for her in that like nothing is fixed when you're talking about a timeline.   Kaelyn: I was on the train coming back from Long Island right before this. And I've been reading a lot of books about the hundred years of war in England and like the very tail end of it and all of this, these little decisions and machinations that were going into everything and where we ended up that all of this eventually culminates in Henry the Eighth.   Peter: And that magnificent portrait of him, just....   Kaelyn: It was funny because I was looking at that portrait. And at some point I'm going to print that out and I'm going to draw in where I think his arms should be and see if it actually lines up. Because I can't tell if the, the idea is like, cause you can't really see the hook of his elbow much. And it kind of looks like his arm is coming out of his rib cage, but at the same time, I'm realizing it could be the angle he's staring at and he's got this giant drapey, like half-cloak thing over him. So maybe it's it was a Hans Holbein the Younger painted that portrait and he was, he was noted for anatomical accuracy. So I don't, I don't think it was just a weird, like, you know, those medieval paintings and sketches in the books where like, you know, a guy seems to have like a leg coming out of his stomach, but   Peter: Yeah. Or like no neck.   Kaelyn: Exactly.   Rekka: Or was riding a snail. I mean, accuracy was their favorite.   Kaelyn: I, I just love that. It's one of my, you know, speaking of like culture and history and how this factors in one of my favorite things to know is that there were these monks living in, you know, giant abbeys on top of and hills, cloistered from society toiling all day transcribing these things. And they still took time to draw the occasional dick picture in the in the manuscript or, you know, doodle a cute dog that they saw on the side of it. It just, you know, it makes me go like, oh yes, those were people.   Peter: I one of the expansions for the new world building deck is the lore fragments expansion. And so it's for creating bits of in world lore. It's a very specific deck of here are different types of media that might be created in the process of like just a town existing or a world existing. And then there's a deck of flourish cards, which are additional stylistic challenges that you can add to really inform the thing you're creating, but yeah, marginalia, I love medieval marginalia. I did my masters in medieval literature. And yeah, and I it's like a combination of that and folklore and, and I love this stuff, so definitely there's a card in the deck that's entirely just about like, and it has some weird marginalia in it as one of the flourishes. Cause I just, I I love that concept. Yeah.   Rekka: Okay. So with the time we have left, I wondered if we could do a little exercise. Like I said, I have my deck lead me through and we'll just, and we'll just do the simple spread because wow. Some of these could get, you know, convoluted. Lead me through creating just a story. I've got, I've got no ideas in my head. What would you have me do with these cards laid out in front of me? And I'll take a picture and we'll post it.   Peter: Oh, that sounds like fun. Yeah. So I think what I'd do just to set the person up before they get started is to say like, we are going to assemble an idea for a story using different elements that are common to a lot of like interesting stories that have all, all the right stuff in it. And we're going to do that one card at a time. And as we each choose each card, we're going to make a choice about what we want that card to mean and how it might fit into the story. But none of those choices are permanent. We can always hit the undo key and change the cards. And then at the end of this, we'll see what we've got and see how we want to interpret it. Okay. Ubut to start, we're going to find out who our main character is, or who the story might be about. And we're going to draw an agent card with the gold border. And,uwe are going to lay that down face up and we're going to read the four cues along the outside of the card.   Rekka: Okay. So I'm shuffling that particular deck real quick before I draw anything. Okay. So I pulled one and in neutral position, we are looking at a misfit, which is perfect for me.   Peter: I love misfit stories. What else do we have   Rekka: From the same card, those you want me to read the other edges? We have a demon, a monster, and a genius.   Peter: Do any of those speak to you as like, oh, I'd like to write about that kind of character?   Rekka: I think I like the more generic misfit, honestly.   Peter: Misfit. Yeah. Okay. Well then you keep that that cue so that it's facing you and that's going to be our character for now. You can always rotate that card later if you want to change it. But let's find what is motivating this misfit. And let's draw an engine card with the little cog icon and the purple border. And we are going to figure out what might be motivating this character.   Rekka: I have "wants to let go of" or "wants to hold onto."   Peter: Do you want to do a story about someone who's trying to move past something like, oh, something or a story about someone who is like something's being taken away and they're holding onto it?   Rekka: I say the latter. So they want to hold on to.   Peter: Yeah. So we'll rotate that cue into position. And then we're going to find out what they're holding on to. Now here's a choice that you can make. Usually for the default version, you would draw an anchor card here, which is a, it's going to be like an object or a non sentient thing in the story. If you want, though, you could make it about holding onto another character or letting go of another character in that and then make it a relationship thing instead, and you could draw another agent card. We have that power.   Rekka: Let's do that. That sounds good. All right.   Peter: We're going to modify. Like we're already switching up the script a little bit.   Kaelyn: Yeah. I was gonna say, I, I feel like we're like cheating a little bit where we're getting the brains behind the operation here, walking us through this.   Rekka: For those of you following along with the MCU right now, we have just deviated from the timeline. So my new agent card is an artist who might be a musician, a writer, or a dancer. I'm going to say dancer through a misfit dancer. A misfit wants to hold on to a dancer.   Kaelyn: Do they want to hold on to dancing or do they want to hold on to a dancer?   Peter: You can choose to reinterpret the cards any way you like. I always think— I'm definitely imagining a relationship here, but that's me. It'd be really interesting to have someone who's holding up the dance cause that's important to them and why they're losing access to dance as a thing would be really interesting because it could be about physical changes. It could be about hobby time. There's like, there's a, it could be like a particular version of dance, like a dance troupe that they used to be part of.   Rekka: Competing for that position in the dance troupe kind of thing.   Peter: Oh yeah, yeah.   Kaelyn: Maybe they live in the town from Footloose.   Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a, so, you know, the as a historian that, that the whole dancing plague in Strasbourg? I think it was Strasbourg?   Kaelyn: Yup. Well, it started there, it went other places afterwards.   Peter: I want to pitch you a, a new movie called "Footless" where I it's this hyper religious town, Kevin Bacon is dispatched to try and ban dancing from the town and end the plague. And it's a reverse "Footloose" and I just think—   Rekka: And this is what happens when you turn your cards around.   Peter: Yes, exactly.   Kaelyn: So maybe they are losing dancing because there was too much dancing and people are literally dying from dancing.   Peter: Yeah. There's there's there's we have, we have a lot of, a lot of directions we can take it, and everyone can go their own direction with it, which is a lot of fun. I, one of my favorite activities for the multiplayer uses of the deck is that you co-create a prompt and then you write whatever you want out of it, or come up, write down your story, pitch out of it. And just to see like how different the directions can go, or where the areas of overlap are. But let's draw a conflict card next. And this is going to create the, either a challenge to holding on to this. Or it's going to give us a consequence if they do hold onto it, what might happen that's bad. The price to pay.   Rekka: Okay. Shuffling. Okay. And top card after the shuffle is, "but they will likely lose their life" or, "but they will lose their life's work."   Kaelyn: It sounds like a dancing plague to me. Lose their life, I mean, come on.   Rekka: Life's work for sure. Okay.   Peter: And then just to texture the story out a little bit more, we're going to draw an aspect card, and this is just basically an adjective that we can slap on any of the other cards to give it a bit more texture or definition.   Rekka: We have harsh shadowy, seductive, or determined. Seems like determined as the dancer.   Peter: Yeah. Yeah. We could definitely do determined dancer. That's gonna, what I find is that when you draw a an aspect cards, it feels like an obvious choice. That can be good sometimes because it lets you sort of focus in and narrow things down and, and, and lock your idea in, or sometimes what I'll do, if I find like there's a first choice that happens that way, I'll reconsider and see, like, is there something that's more surprising? And that creates something that sticks out a little bit more, and that gives me either a new thing to work with, or I can always like, kind of go back to the thing and be more focused. But yeah, I, every now and then when I get the obvious choice thing I almost always end up sticking with it, but I like to give myself a moment to play with what if I did something that's like harder to work with?   Rekka: What if you didn't. Uh yeah. I don't know what a harsh dancer would be like or someone who doesn't have time for their misfit because dance is all they care about. Okay. A harsh dancer would be hard to hold on to, I suppose. Okay. So would I draw another aspect card then for the misfit?   Peter: If you want to, you can the base prompt usually is usually just one of each card or in this case we substituted an agent for an anchor, but I like to encourage people to like, it's kinda like you taste your food as you make it and season it to taste. If you're like, I want, I want to know more about who the other, the dancer, the dancer, I want to know more about this or that. You can definitely go ahead and draw another aspect card and see where you might fit it. And if you end up not with like, not finding a place for it, you can just chuck it. Yeah. Let's do another one.   Rekka: I'm looking at this one. And I'm saying, what if I switched it? Because you said I can break all the rules. So what if a dancer and we'll say, and we'll go back to determined just for ease of my sentence here. ...Is Trying to let go of the misfit ...but they will likely lose their life implying that like the misfit holds some key, that's going to save them, but they don't want the association with this person.   Peter: Oh, interesting. Yeah.   Rekka: And this could be read both directions where the misfit is trying to hold onto the dancer. Yeah. But we'll lose their life's work if they get caught up in this, you know, honest life or something like that.   Peter: Yeah. Yeah. I like that.   Rekka: And that's something I noticed is that like a lot of these, you could rearrange it and read it in both directions. And then, you know, since you said you come up with your own spreads, what I thought of since going through the instruction book and, and looking through a few of the cards was like, if you have a heist plot, like, you know you want a heist plot, so you take what you would that be the anchor card? And you have that as the center of a cross, and you have four different parties that are moving toward that object. And then you can put their stories in context, and then you have a nice, big, thick, juicy heist plot of four people in competition with each other to get to the thing. But also what's, what's the thing, holding them back or pushing them forward. It's really neat how all of this is creating stories in my head that are probably going to stick with me even after I like remove the cards from my table. So let me, before I forget, I'm going to take photos of these and then, oh, did you say we, I was allowed to draw another aspect card?   Peter: Yeah, Let's do another aspect. If you're looking for more, more seasoning let's, let's go for it.   Rekka: I love seasoning. Ah okay. We have misunderstood, gilded, traumatic, or revolutionary.   Peter: I'm I'm liking revolutionary for the missed it, because it gives her a reason for it to be hard to hold onto them. Like maybe they are a liability, maybe they're involved in like in creating change. That's like in a good way, but in a way that's disruptive.   Kaelyn: Maybe they're Kevin Bacon there to stop the dancing?   Peter: Yes! Yeah. That is, that is, yeah. That's Kevin Bacon right there. Rekka: All right. This is, this is a functioning story right here. Like there's no doubt that you could take this and turn it into something.   Kaelyn: Yeah. And by the way what have we been doing with this for like, I mean, you know, if we hadn't been going off on tangents and interjecting here, this would have been what, about five minutes? So, you know.   Rekka: Very, very short time, but I think the the, the time you spend thinking about like, which edge of this do I want to show is very valuable. You know, you hear advice sometimes like, "write down your first 12 ideas and cross out the first 11 or, you know, enter whatever number you've heard. And this one, these aren't even initially your ideas, you know what I mean? These, I mean, they're prompts and the ideas you come up with are your own, but it's still like, you skip all the obvious stuff because you don't have the option of the obvious stuff. And like maybe the aspect card is the most obvious thing that you might choose. It's impressive. I like this.   Peter: One of the things that I really like about using the deck is that it forces me to avoid the choices that I usually make for what fuels the story.   Rekka: I still got to write a misfit story. You know, like I still have my space pirates, but I never would have incorporated a dancer. You know?   Peter: Yeah. I have, I definitely have a bag of tricks that I've reached for a little too often as a writer. And so it's nice to have something that forces you to reach into a different bag. I know one of my favorite sort of sentences about breaking creative patterns is when Tom Waits described that like between albums, he would break his fingers because they would always, he'd always end up playing the same sorts of chords or the same progressions. So like one, like he would actually, technically what he would do is like pick up a new instrument and learning that instrument would change the way that he played. But that idea of like breaking your fingers and like trying to make sure that you don't always reach the same way or go for the same things.   Rekka: To be clear listeners, we do not encourage you to break your fingers.   Kaelyn: Please don't break your fingers. It makes it very difficult to type.   Rekka: I think in this case, what would it be changing keyboard layouts, like go from QWERTY to Dvorak or something like that. That would be a way to break your habits of easily using the same words over and over.   Kaelyn: Pick a genre that you previously had not been as involved in and submerge yourself in it for a, you know, a month or   Rekka: Whatever the agent who was cringing about us just recommending that their author switch genres, but you just mean reading?   Kaelyn: Yeah, just, you know, a different style, some different, you know, story elements and things you, you know, so you're not reading and ingesting or watching even. I dunno if you're maybe primarily like a fantasy writer, go binge, watch the entire MCU and, you know, see if you come away with some different ideas after that.   Rekka: Yup. Or, you know, Leverage now we get an ending. So go binge leverage. There's I would say like, if you tend toward the high literary, like go slum it with some escapist fiction for awhile or something like that. Basically change it up. I love this I'm, I'm, I know Tom Waits is not about to break his fingers, but I'm still very concerned for him. And I feel like I need to call him after we're off this recording.   Kaelyn: Well, so that was, that was a great idea of Rekka. That was a lot of fun.   Rekka: It was just a simple layout. Yeah. There are, you could go to town on this and something made me think of the MICE quotient, which I think we've covered here before about milieu, idea, character, and darnit, I've forgotten the E [ed. E is for event], But you, the more of each that you add, the bigger your story is going to get. And so if you wanted to write flash fiction, you could start with four cards, like, you know, one aspect or, you know, keep it really simple. If you wanted to plan out a series, you could really go to town, like laying out an entire, you know, 20-card kind of layout to give you the seed for a much bigger world, and then go get the world building set, and then come back and build something even bigger around that. I was hesitant to use it when I got it, because I'm like, "but I have ideas."   Rekka: And now I see how even like on a scene by scene level, like what if I, you know, I lock in my character card cause I know who my agent is going to be, but I don't know what the scene needs, you know, I can play around and all this could just be my scene, just like it could just be a flash piece. It really is way more flexible than I thought it was. For some reason, I thought either it was too broad or too specific and I was intimidated by it, but just doing this and, you know, reading through the guidebook to kind of see the possibilities I have a feeling I'm going to be using this a lot more than I expected to, and I'm going to go get that world buildin

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Premee Mohamed's website @premeesaurus on Twitter Premee on Curious Fictions Beneath the Rising (Book One of Two!no!Three!) A Broken Darkness (Book Two of Two!no!Three!) The Void Ascendant (Book Three of Two????) These Lifeless Things – 5 Feb 21, Solaris Books (Satellites) The Annual Migration of Clouds – 28 Sept 21, ECW Press And What Can We Offer You Tonight – July 21, Neon Hemlock Press  The Broken Earth Trilogy by N. K. Jemisin   Transcript for this episode (by @Betty_Bett_) Rekka: In episode 58, Kaelyn and I talked about writing book two in a series of three or more. In Episode 59, we capped that conversation off by talking about book two in a duology. And what more do you need to know because that's it. Well, that's the only kind of book two you would write, of course. So, also of course, we are here today with Premee Mohamed, and we are going to talk about writing book three in a duology. So, Premee, you are here because you are now the new expert on this. [laughs] Premee: I think I would like to become an expert on this. It fell on me like a meteorite. Rekka: So, why don't we start by having you introduce yourself and talk about books one and two in this duology? Premee: Let's talk about that. Sure. So yeah, I'm Premee Mohamed. I'm based in Edmonton, Alberta, which is in Canada. And I'm a scientist, and I write short stories and novellas and novels. My debut novel came out in 2020, that was called Beneath the Rising. My second came out this March and was called A Broken Darkness. And I also have three other books out this year. In February, there was These Lifeless Things which was a novella that came out with Rebellion's new novella imprint which is called Satellites. And in July, we're looking at And What Can We Offer You Tonight from Neon Hemlock Press, another novella. And in September, ECW Press is publishing The Annual Migration of Clouds which is a cli-fi novella. So I'm excited about all that. Kaelyn: So you've been busy? Premee: I have been busy. It also sounds like I'm a lot busier than I am, but Clouds was written in 2019 and just got published this year. And Lifeless was written in 2017 and had a home, and then it was kicked out of its home and went wandering around for a little while, and then got rehomed. So it's not like everything's been written and published immediately. Publishing is like transit, like sometimes four buses show up at once. [laughing] Rekka: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. Premee: Yeah, the first book, I wrote actually when I was an undergrad, my first degree. So when I was writing it, I was actually sort of a peer with Nick the narrator. So it starts when he's about 18. And I was about 18 when I started it. And I finished it the year I graduated, and I was 20. And I set it aside because that's what I did with everything I wrote because writing was—is—still my hobby. If I played golf with my friends, I wouldn't go out and tell everybody to come watch me play golf or pay me to play golf or try to get into the PGA or whatever. It was just something I did because I like to do it. And it was a good number of years before there was any evidence at all that I might be good enough to make money off my hobby. So when that became clear, I started trying to publish short stories. And then my friends were nudging me or bugging me, "We know that you've got a trunk full of books. Why don't you try to publish some of them, you could make more money than a short story?" And I was like, "More money than a short story, you say?" Well, everyone has their price—mine is low. So I dug Beneath the Rising out of the trunk and gave it a light polish. And for something that was written when I was 20, it wasn't terrible, I thought. And it was also done; most of my stuff was not done. It just went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and never finished. And it just lost the plot. And this one had the words “The End” at the end. And I was like, "Congratulations, you have been chosen." Kaelyn: That definitely makes a huge selling point for the book. This one is done. The other ones are in various states of actualization; this one is finished. [laughing] Premee: Yes, I'm sorry book, you didn't get picked because of your merit. [laughing] You got picked on other grounds. But I thought maybe if an agent likes this, I could interest the agent in something else, something that was good. So I queried with that because it was done. And yeah, got literary representation and got a book deal. And what happened was—so this is why I'm in this situation now—I wrote it as a standalone because I wrote everything as a standalone. I never wrote sequels to anything, especially because nothing ever ended. But I had never written anything that came after a thing. I didn't know how you did it. I'd read a lot of sequels, because fantasy and sci-fi is lousy with series. And I thought it was very nice that other people could do that. And my agent was like, "Well, publishers really like series. So, why don't we pitch this as a trilogy?" I was like, "You know what my dude, you know the business, so pitch it however you want." So, written as a standalone, pitched as a trilogy, the publisher bought two books. So I was like, "Okay, well, that's manageable. I can write one more book. And I know the deadline for that book." So after the first book came out, I wrote and handed in the second book. And a couple of months before the second book was published, so when it had—and this is crucial—when it was already done all edits and was galloping down the road to publication, my editor emailed me and was like, "Sup. So let's talk about a third book." And I sat there like, "Let's talk about a third, sorry, let's talk about a third book? The time to talk about a third book was when the second book was in edits! Because you bought two books, and I wrote you two books. And the ending of the second book is an ending that makes the third book a little tricky along certain axes.” Kaelyn: Were you shocked by this call? Premee: I was genuinely shocked. Kaelyn: Okay. Premee: It was an email and it was cc'd to my agent. The agent found out at the same time that I did. It didn't come with a contract or anything. It was just a friendly, "Hey, what's up? So, third book, huh? Pretty excited?" I was like, "What third book?" I think this was a case where it's like he was having a conversation in his head and also I was talking along in his head, but we didn't actually have the conversation. Kaelyn: Look, we're all guilty of that. I frequently do that with my co-workers and friends. Rekka: It wasn't because it was pitched as a trilogy, and he thought there was a third book planned that you just had? Was that maybe...? Premee: I think that was the case because otherwise, I am 99% sure that he would have asked me to change the ending of the second book. Rekka: Right. So he was like, "Hey, Premee knows where this is going." Premee: Yeah, I don't know. Again, there were some doors shut at the end of the second book. I genuinely think if, during edits, he had been like, "Hey, let's make this a trilogy." He would have said something, to me, during the editing process because we went back and forth twice or whatever for developmental edits and then for the copy edit and line edit. And also we talked on Twitter and stuff all the time. The third book really seemed to just fall out of a clear blue sky. And while I was delighted to have the offer, I didn't really have a third book planned. So I had about a week to basically come up with a plot and then send that back to my editor, with my agent's blessing because he was like, "You don't have to do this if you don't want, genuinely." So we negotiated out a contract with that and for another unrelated book. So I worked out some kind of a plot, I wrote some kind of synopsis, I just barfed it all out into the page and cleaned it up a little bit and sent it back so that my editor could take it to acquisitions. And came back and was like, "Yeah, here's your new deadline, have fun." I was like "Have fun? Okey dokey." Kaelyn: That's a lot to unpack there. It sounds like when you wrote all of this and by the way, just for people who are listening, if you haven't read these yet, we are not going to be spoiling anything about these two books, so please feel free to— Rekka: Except the only spoiler is you will regret it forever if you don't read these books. Kaelyn: Warning or spoiler? Rekka: Spoiler, I will come and get you if you don't. Kaelyn: Advice. Advice! Rekka: All right, now it's a threat, it's advice, whatever. Read these books. So I read my books in bed at night, it's dark. This was the first book that made me go, "Ah, creepy!" for a really long time. Kaelyn: Rekka actually texted me and specifically said, "Okay, you need to read Beneath the Rising because I'm genuinely freaked out by it." It takes quite a lot to freak Rekka out, so congrats? Premee: Good job team, because I never really thought that I wrote horror because I don't read a lot of horror. It's very scary. And I don't really watch a lot of horror movies or TV or anything like that because they're scary. I wanted the characters to be scared. I didn't think people reading it would be scared. Kaelyn: Scared for them, I was very scared for them. Rekka: Well, it's very easy to transpose what's happening to a character to yourself when you're reading in the dark at night and you're slightly sleepy. And if you look around the room, there are monsters in your shadows anyway. Kaelyn: I mean, that's where they live. Rekka: But I haven't had that feeling at night of that like, "Ooh, I don't want to stick my head above the covers." I haven't had that feeling at night in a very long time. So, good work. Premee: Thank you. Rekka: I will say the creepy factor, it was most intense toward the beginning, before you really know what the characters are dealing with. Then of course, as you learn things, things get less scary for some reason like that's how brains work. Premee: Yeah, cause I think it goes from a horror because they don't know what's happening to more of an adventure story where they're thrust into problem solving mode. And the things that they're solving problems against are scary, but they're also not the biggest problem. I mean, like, for instance, a plane crash is a problem. And I think we should all be discussing how dangerous a plane crash could be. Kaelyn: Generally, those are considered problems, yes. Premee: Yeah. Kaelyn: Okay, so they said, we're going to pitch this as a trilogy, they came back and gave you a two-book contract. So you're going into this going, "All right, this is going to be a duology. I can do a duology. No problem." Premee: I can do a duology. Yeah. Rekka: You wrote the first book as a standalone. So, did you change anything about it knowing it was going to be a duology as you were editing? Premee: Not really, no. Rekka: Okay. So you wrote a standalone, then you had to write a second one to cap off that duology, and now you have to write a third one to cap off that duology as another almost standalone. Premee: That was also an issue because A Broken Darkness was the first sequel I had ever written for anything. And I sat there for a month afterwards going, "How do write se..quel? Hang on, maybe I will google.” And when you google it, it basically goes, "Well, you have to plan the entire series starting from the first book. And I was like, "I hate the Google." Okay, what if you get a sequel sprung on you after you didn't expect to write a sequel? So, I outlined something and then I sat there. And I was like, "Actually, this is identical to the first book and has the same conflict and problems." And tossed that outline out. And I think where I eventually ended up going back was studying the first book a little bit. I actually re-read the first book, which was great cause it let me find all the mistakes that I left in it. And trying to pick out not so much like an overarching structure that I could work with, but like some threads that I could grab and pull on hard enough that they would come into the second book. And I think I had left enough at the ends that there was something to pull on. Again, without getting too specific, at the end of the first book, the world has changed quite a bit. Governments have different attitudes, the attitude towards scientific research has changed, the public attitude towards Johnny Chambers and her businesses has changed. Nick and Johnny's friendship has changed, his relationship with his family is damaged, there's a lot of trust issues, there's a lot of opportunity for something to be quite quite different from the first book. Again, that's where I started on the outline for the third book, is, “okay, did I leave enough threads to pull on?” Because I would have liked to have some overarching structure or goal. And when I think of that, what I think of actually is N.K. Jemisin's the Broken Earth trilogy, which really feels solidly planned and like a trilogy. You can feel that it's almost like a suspension bridge, there's the big structure and then there's things hanging off the structure. And each of those holds up something in that book itself, and also in the next book. And I don't feel like I have that. I just have the hangy things, but I'm working as hard as I can with the hangy things, trust me. Kaelyn: I have this habit of if I find an author that I really enjoy what they've written, I start stalking them. So of course, I've thoroughly gone through your website. And I very much enjoy all of your posts, but you actually did one about writing the second book. Premee: Yeah, because that was the hardest book I've ever written in my life. [laughing] Kaelyn: It's interesting because you're very aware of this. And I think that makes it so much harder because since you are so aware of this, you wrote a finite ending for the second book, that was the end of the story. Premee: That was the end, yeah. When I think of stories, I do think architecturally, and I think of novels as several things, but a house is pretty common. And I really think that a lot of doors were shut at the end of the story, the house is pretty well locked up with whatever it has inside it and whatever is left outside of it. And I kind of threw the keys into a storm drain. [laughing] Again, without getting too specific. Kaelyn: It turns out there was a monster in that storm drain. Premee: It does turn out there was a monster in the storm drain. “I just got—what? Plink! What was that noise? Oh, it was an email from my editor.” [laughing] Rekka: The monster in the storm drain was the email from your editor all along. Premee: It was actually, yeah. Analogies are hard. [laughing] Rekka: No, this is perfect. This is exactly our style of analogy. So as Kaelyn and I have discussed before, when you're writing book two after you've written book one and you think you have a trilogy, you have a nice book one which could be standalone. Kaelyn: Yeah. Rekka: And then you take that arc and make it bigger and write that over the next two books, which you would have liked to have known it was time to do. Premee: Yes. Kaelyn: It's very common with publishing contracts to get one book with an option for two more. And, yeah, so that a lot of times writers will write it as this could be a standalone, but there is absolutely doors and windows and maybe a missing wall left open so that we can continue to work on and expand the house. Premee: Yeah, see, I didn't know any of that. And also, after I announced the third book, I had friends pop into my DMs with like, "Congratulations. FYI, same thing happened to me. They bought two books and now they're asking for a third book, but because I knew this was going to happen, I had the third book ready to go." And I'm like, "Congratulations." [laughing] Kaelyn: “Oh, isn't that so great for you?” Premee: I'm glad you can't hear a tone in Twitter. Mneh-neh. I'm just going to be under my desk drinking rum. Yeah. Kaelyn: Okay, so what are you going to do? Did you have more stories set in this universe with these characters in your head or had you just completely written them out of your mind? Premee: They were actually all in the first book. I had to reach back 18 years or whatever it was to write the second. Because I was like, "Okay, book all done. Have a nice life, you guys." [laughing] Rekka: Moving on to something new, something shiny. Premee: Yeah. Turns out that you can go right back to it if people give you money. But we finished the paperwork to absolutely confirm that, yes, you, Premee Mohamed, will be writing a third book for absolute sure in I think February. So the first thing I did was panic for a week and not write. Kaelyn: That's fair. Premee: I hid under my desk a little bit with the blankets, which didn't help, but... Rekka: You have to honor the feelings. Premee: I had to honor my feelings and just let them run around a bit. And then I crawled back up and looked at what I had sent David [Moore, editor at Rebellion Publishing]. And what that was had been based on the three or four-sentence long pitch that was in the original pitch that we sent to the publisher, which was, "Oh, here's the book that we are pitching to you at this moment. If it's a trilogy that you want, here's a paragraph about the second book." And that completely turned out to not be what the second book was whatsoever. And here's a paragraph about the third book. And that had about one sentence in common. And I was like, "Go past me." So I went back to the pitch and broke it apart into its components, and sorted it into two piles like, "Okay, this pile is stuff that I wrote out of panic and expectation, let's just push that aside. This pile has potential to be part of a novel, let's move those over here." And from that, I just tried to build out on everything that I thought was interesting in the second pile. Rekka: Okay. Premee: So, where could this happen? What are the issues? Who can I involve? Who's the bad guy for this component? Who's the good guy for this component? Later on, do they switch places? What's difficult or interesting or what feels impossible about this component? What about this component could be reversed as opposed to how it goes in the start of the book? Maybe it can go backwards later. What's the tone that I want for all of these? What's the vibe that I want for this book? Because the first one I felt had a Indiana-Jones-but-kids vibe. And the second one, Nick is trying really hard for it to be a spy novel vibe. And it's not, it's a bit more post-apocalyptic almost because the apocalypse is happening slowly around them. And people are like, "Oh, yeah, this is weird. I'mma go home and make supper. I don't know that there's anything I can do about this.” I wanted to combine that second pile and the expansion on it which ended up being something like three to five pages or around there, with what I wanted to pull out of the first book and the second book, and make sure that I included in there in some way. And when I was done, I had sort of the mental equivalent of a deck of cards that I could shuffle and try to put together. And from that, I printed that out and marked it up and put some stickers on it and did some drawings, then wrote what I thought was a pretty workable outline for a third book. This heavily on the difficulties in the last quarter of the second book, really heavily from that. So that's how that went. And that is in the process of being written now, not entirely in order, but I know about the 40k mark, somewhere around there. And it's due in September. So hopefully, we can do this. And the nice thing, I guess, about this random third book is that at least I'm working with an editor that I know who edited the first two books. And so if I'm making certain choices or putting people in certain places or opting to have something happen a X time instead of Y time, I think at this point he understands pretty well why I chose to do that and isn't going to put a comment in there like, "Oh, why did this happen?" Because he's like, "Okay, I know why this happened. And now I'm braced in about 75 pages for that to go terribly, terribly wrong." [laughing] Rekka: It definitely helps that you're not also shuffled between editors for this process. Premee: It does, yeah. Rekka: Now, when you wrote that plot outline for book three, did you work on it with your agent at all before you sent it to the editor or you're working directly with the editor at this point? Premee: Oh, yeah, yeah. My agent was like, "Oh, this is good. I would read this." And I'm like, "Bless you. You say that about a lot of things. Thank you." And she forwarded it to my editor. He's like, "Oh, this looks good. I would read this." And I'm like, "Thank you." Again, you're trying to make money off this so just tell me what I need to fix. And he's like, "No, it's fine. I'm going to go take it to the acquisitions committee, and I'm going to act it out." I'm like, "Oh god!" Kaelyn: Yeah, can you please record that? I would love to see it. [laughing] Premee: I think my actual reaction was something like, "Please don't." Kaelyn: “I don't know if I'm going to be able to look you in the eye again after knowing you acted this out.” [laughing] Premee: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But turns out, it worked out and they were like, "We want that third book and we also want dibs on a next book." And I was like, "Well, I haven't got a next book." They're like, "Well, if we give you money, will you write another book?" [laughing] So it turns out that's how publishing works. At some point, you don't have to give them the finished book. They just ask you for a book and they give you money upfront. Rekka: Once you're inside the secret bunker. Premee: Once you're inside the secret bunker, I had no idea, yeah. I don't even have a plot for that one, that was just called “untitled fantasy novel.” Rekka: Now, did you put it in your contract that they cannot ask you for a fourth book in this series? Premee: I did not. Kaelyn: Are you sure that this is the last book? Premee: No, I'm not. They keep referring to it as a trilogy now though. Rekka: Okay. Kaelyn: All right. Okay, all right. Premee: On their announcement, they were like, "Hey, we got the final book in the Beneath the Rising trilogy." And I'm like, "There are 10 things wrong with that sentence." [laughing] First of all, you published the first two books, thirdly, you're making me write the third one. You phrased this entirely wrong. Oh, “we get to publish.” No, you asked for it. You literally... Okay, anyways, have fun. It's a nice cover. I'm going to get back to writing now and drinking heavily. [laughing] Kaelyn: My favorite word in that sentence was “the final book” because it's like, "Well, funny story, I already wrote the final book." Premee: I wrote the final book. Kaelyn: And then you decided that wasn't the final book anymore. So now we have a new final book. So, is this the final final book or is there going to be a final final final book? Premee: If they ask for a fourth book, I'm going to quit publishing and go live in a tree. I literally have a plan, yeah. Kaelyn: It's a good thing you have a plan. You should go south though a little bit to one of the big redwood trees. If you're going to live in a tree, make it, yeah. Premee: I'm planning the coast but not quite the coast because they're expecting, you know, the big one and the tsunamis and stuff and I don't really want to get washed out to sea. Kaelyn: But you'll be in a tree, you'll be fine. Premee: Yeah, but I figured, yeah, if I'm a little bit further inland, me and my tree will survive. Rekka: I love this. However, you have already confessed on this podcast that if they offer you enough money, you will write the book. Premee: Yeah, at this point, it would have to be more money than they offered for the third book. And I mean a decent amount more money, not like $6 and a coupon for half-off a frogurt if I buy a large. Kaelyn: Oh, now I want frozen yoghurt. Premee: Me too, actually. It's supposed to be really hot here by the end of the week, apparently. I'm a little nervous about that because I'm pretty far north—we're at Latitude 53—our houses are really built to keep in the heat because it gets down to -40 in the winter. We're not really prepared for it to get up to +40. Rekka: If you don't open the door, will that thermos house also keep out the heat? Is it like a double-walled drink cooler, where... Premee: It would be if I weren't in a crappy condo with a giant gap under the door but anyways, we'll see how it goes. I may come to the local ceremonies wearing a dress made out of ice packs. Rekka: That would be fashion. Premee: I think it would be fashion. Kaelyn: Yeah, that's definitely fashion. Premee: I am cosplaying somebody from a Disney movie. She is… frozen. They'll be like, "Which one are you?" I'm like, "I don't know their names. [laughing] I am the one who is… frozen. I'm her." Rekka: The one who has to run to the freezer to get more ice. Premee: Yeah, exactly. [laughing] Rekka: Okay. So, writing three standalones and faking a trilogy, you started it thinking, “standalone book, cool, I'll write this and then I'll move on with my life. And maybe in 18 years or so I'll come back and write a second book or someone will pay me enough to write a second book. And then maybe, after I finished writing that and it's edited and it's gone gold, as they say in video games, then maybe I'll consider writing another one.” Do you have any tips for just wrapping your mind around it? Or I mean, hiding under a blanket for a week is an excellent advice but... Premee: Yeah, I think that was going to be my first tip. My second tip is that rum is not as helpful as one would think. Because it does actually erase the memory of knowing that you have to write a third book. But afterwards, when you check your email, you actually still do have to write the book. Rekka: You can't just make it go away, huh? Premee: You cannot just make it go away. You can damage your few remaining brain cells, but the book still has to get written. I guess in terms of tips, yeah, the big one was do a reread. And that also helps forestall some of the panic, I think, or at least it did for me. Do a reread; there is so much that we put into novels that I think people think is local color or throwaway detail or “well, gee, that was a fun little anecdote.” But again, it's a novel, things are in it on purpose, they have a purpose for that story. But they can have a double purpose for later books. And again, that's something that I find myself doing very much with this third book, is reaching in and finding things that didn't have significance and lending them some significance on purpose. Which isn't to say that every goofy childhood story is now going to be hugely explained. But a novel is not like a short story, a novel has room for things to sit in there apparently without purpose until they're needed. And if I did end up having to write a fourth book, now that I've done the process of having two surprise sequels fall through the roof and hit me on my head, I think that's something I would do. Even with this third book, the doors that I shut and locked and went, "Hahaha, that's closed!" word to the wise, past me, no door is ever shut forever. And because we're writers, we can always think around a problem that seems unsolvable. I mean, how many times have we, in a short story or a novel, written ourselves into a corner and said, "Oh my god, I outsmarted myself. I have set up a situation that these characters cannot get out of," let sit for a couple days and take some walks and have a bath, and the solution just shows up. And I think even with the ending of the second book, which again was supposed to be the ending of lots of things, it's maybe not as final as it looked at first glance. So I guess the big tip is look at everything in more detail and see how you can tweak it or twist it or stretch it. Rekka: So if you were writing a trilogy and you wanted to go back and make sure that it was very connected, you would take things that happened in the third book and go back and foreshadow them as you edit when you have the chance to edit all of them at once. And then you would foreshadow all the way forward so that you look very clever, by the end of it, to your reader, and they think, "How did you think of all these little things to add?" This is how I always thought mystery writers wrote was linearly like I do. And then I realized, "Oh, no, you get to edit before anyone sees it." But you had the reverse, where you had to go find the foreshadowing you didn't know you were foreshadowing. Premee: Yep, exactly. I had to declare that it was foreshadow. I was like, "Well, yeah, this is a detail. Now I gotta make something out of that detail." It's like finding a bunch of random stuff in your fridge and being like, "I'm putting that on a pizza." It is no longer a random thing. Now, it is a pizza topping. Yes. [laughing] Kaelyn: There's always stuff that you already wrote that can help with this. It can be an offhanded comment, it can be something that we understand about the character, the setting, the world building, something along those lines. I don't believe in the “writing yourself into a corner.” Unless you have published a book and then write something in the second book that directly contradicts a very specific plot-related thing that happened in the first book, and now you have to somehow correct it in the third. Well, that's what time travel is for. [laughing] Rekka: Time travel, unreliable narrators, yeah. Premee: Unreliable narrators, people who show up with helpful macguffins at exactly the right moment, you're like, "Hey." Kaelyn: Look, sometimes you get handed an ex machina. It's just how things work. Premee: I know there's a rule—and I don't like writing rules, but I know a lot of them now. Now that I have five books that are going to be out in the world, I should probably teach myself how to write at some point. I don't have a writing background, I don't have any writing education. I have spent about the last two years reading a lot of craft books and doing classes and going to panels and reading everything so I can literally learn how to write. But I have heard this rule that you can use coincidences to get your characters into trouble, but you can't use them to get your characters out of trouble. And I don't believe that. I believe that the definition of “coincidence” is being misused. And that if circumstances are set up so that something can happen and then it does happen, it's not a coincidence. And if it does manage to get the characters out of trouble, and they're like, "Oh, woah, that was lucky," I think you're allowed to do that once per book. [laughing] Rekka: If you rely on it for maybe too much, people are going to start quoting writing rules at you. But I think a lot of people break a lot of writing rules and are celebrated for it. Kaelyn: In real life, we all do occasionally get lucky. It's just a thing that happens. Premee: And in real life, coincidences do get us out of trouble pretty frequently, even things that people don't even think about, like, "Oh hoho, that was bad." And then it turns out that your email program actually didn't send the email, and you're like, "Oh, dodged that bullet. Now, I will rewrite it. I'll delete that one, I'll rewrite it, and then I'll send it to my boss," that kind of thing. Kaelyn: I always go, well, there's this thing called the theory of quantum immortality, which is that every decision you make the ones you're dying, you just stop existing in those realities. So you just keep paring yourself down and paring yourself down until eventually, you get to a point where you have no other possible alternatives. But I just always enjoy that one. So your existence just keeps getting pared down to eventually, they'll only be the one left and it ends. Premee: Well, and what that also made me think of, too, was the other idea that coincidence can't get your characters out of trouble. Well, okay. I'm going to use a coincidence here because I set it up previously, I'm allowing this to happen, the structure of the book and the setting allows this to happen, so it happens. Then what I'm going to do is let them get into a different type of trouble because of the coincidence. Kaelyn: So there are consequences. Premee: There are consequences, so it's kind of you know, like the improv. And I was talking about this with someone on their Twitch stream a little while ago, and she taught me the phrase that I haven't seen in a lot of writing books, which is, "Yeah, in improv you go, ‘No but' or ‘Yes and,'" so if your improv character succeeds, there's also something tacked on to it that is going to be in some way a pain in the ass. If they don't succeed, maybe they get something that's a little bonus or sends them off sideways rather than forward, so the same thing. She was like, "I see that you do this in your books all the time." It's like, "Hooray, we have solved the pro— We have another problem." [laughing] Kaelyn: “This one has three heads, and it's dripping acid from its teeth.” [laughing] Premee: Yeah, exactly. It's like, "This one is touching my ankle." [laughing] Rekka: We talked about the improv ‘yes and' a lot, in fact, in the most recent episode. I hadn't heard the ‘no but' part, which is interesting, because what I was always told was like, "The ‘no' stops the whole process from going forward and you killed the game by saying ‘no.'" But if you say ‘no but,' I like that. What it does is it propels you forward and almost speeds things up again. It says, "Your reaction, you have to think about it for a second. But as soon as you start saying ‘and' or ‘but,' words start tumbling forward and things just start happening." If you're Premee, it's more trouble. I like that. Premee: Yeah, that's what I like about the ‘no but.' A success is fantastic, but we all know that in fiction a string of successes gets pretty dull. We want things to go wrong so that these characters that we've started to care about, or in some cases want to throw into the river, can show who they are and how they react to things. And they should have a lot of ‘no' on their journey towards the end of the book, which of course they don't know is the end of the book. They should have a lot of ‘no,' but what I like about ‘no but' is that, exactly like you said, the ‘no' stops you dead, it stops the plot dead, too. The ‘no but' is, “okay, what you wanted you can't have right now. You could want something else, and maybe that's something you should go for.” And they're like, "We could and if that's our only option at the moment, we'll go for the ‘but,' and we'll come back to what we wanted the original ‘yes' for later on if we can. Maybe the ‘no but' sets of circumstances for a later ‘yes and.'" Rekka: Exactly, your characters are motivated to try and get to their specific goal and they might do some of this negotiating along the way, or just trying to move forward so that they can keep moving at all. Like our plots have to do. [laughing] Kaelyn: The other thing that I will say that can stop as dead and this is a very funny conversation I had to have with my father recently was ‘perfect!' My sisters and I have a habit of saying, "Okay, perfect." And my dad finally was like, "What is this?" We're like, "Because it's good, because there's nothing else to add, it's perfect. That's great, we're going to keep going forward just with that." So yeah, apart from ‘yes and,' the ‘yes and' can't be ‘yes and perfect.' There's got to be something else happening there. [laughing] Premee: Yeah. Rekka: You've got to have more of a ‘yes, that is okay….' Kaelyn: ‘Yes, and...' Premee: Or it's like “yes and what's the catch?” Oh, there's a catch. The catch is chapter seven. “Okay, everybody, let's head into chapter seven. I can't believe this happened to us after we just achieved our goal.” I'm like, "That wasn't your goal. That was a mini goal, you didn't know that." They're like, "Do you hear something? Sometimes we're in a tough spot, do you hear somebody talking?" Maybe you guys could try the other thing. “What?” Kaelyn: “The door, there's a door behind you, move the tapestry.” [laughing] Rekka: So, I'm going to redirect this a little bit with the time we have left. Kaelyn, as an editor... Kaelyn: Oh God, okay, yeah? Rekka: This is my ‘yes and.' What advice would you have given Premee, before this got going? Or while Premee is trying to write it, at 40k, and still has the rest of the book? Premee: Give advice, thank you. Kaelyn: I would have apologized to you profusely just to start out. So I would have been like, "Listen, I know you've worked really hard on this. The thing is that it shows and we really like that. We were maybe hoping that you would want to do another one of these." Premee: That would have been a much nicer email to get. Kaelyn: That would have been on the phone, because then, after you stop screaming at me, I'd be like, "Okay, so, is it a yes?" No, I think it's gratifying to hear how you're doing this because that is what I would suggest. You think you've written yourself into a corner. I have dealt with and edited books where authors are like, "I have no idea how this is going to happen because we changed these other things and we still have to get to this point." It's like, "Okay, well, one thing: we can always add words." That's a great thing about a book. Adding words changes how the story goes. In your case though, yeah, there's things that were established, things that were laid down as law so to speak and where finite decisions and doors closed, but I would go back to well written characters, well written storylines, and excellent world building always have to put as you said, threads you can pull on. I will tell you, I would be bothering you more than it sounds like your editor is, just going, "So… how's everything going?" And I guess it's funny because I'm a planner. You gotta tell me everything. If we end up in a situation like this, I know where we started, I know where we're going, I know how we're getting there and can brainstorm accordingly. Yes, but I'm a nurturer of storylines. I like to see them grow into complex, sometimes terrible and frightening, but wondrous nonetheless things. Rekka: Nurtured but terrifying. Premee: Like a scary plant. Kaelyn: Yeah. Rekka: Or like a horror book you didn't realize you were writing a horror story. Premee: I'm scared of horror, I don't read a lot of horror. [laughing] Kaelyn: When I told my boyfriend I was like, "Oh, yeah, we have an interview tonight." And he's always like, "Oh, what are you talking about?" And I said, "Oh my god, get this. It's this author who she wrote this duology for two books and they finished, and then they were like ‘give us a third.'" Now, my boyfriend is a huge horror movie fan. He loves all of the '70s, '80s slasher flicks and stuff, and he goes, "Well, that's no problem. Do you know how many times they brought Jason back to life?" [laughing] He's like, "Yeah, there's always ways to write around that. Like, he ended up in space at one point." Premee: I was about to say, I'm like, "He went to space, man!” I'm pretty sure they killed him in the movie before that, but then he wasn't dead. And he was also in space. Kaelyn: Yeah, so anyway, he has nothing but the utmost confidence in your ability to do this. [laughing] Premee: Oh, tell him thank you. Yeah. Kaelyn: Because if the people writing those movies can do it, you certainly can. Premee: Well, honestly, when you talk about the timelines and stuff, that was something I thought... So the second book, Darkness, was set about 14 months, or something 15 months, after the first book. And for the third one, I was like—with my rum—"Oh, yeah?! Well, how about I just set it 25,000 years in the future and solve all my problems." And then I put the rum down, and I was like, "Wait, no, focus." Kaelyn: How do you like that editor? Premee: They're asking for a third book that has the same gist as the first two books because I guess they sold some copies. And I guess the fans want something sorta like that and not something set 25,000 years later with a cast of 30 different interesting aliens, one of whom is a cloud of nitrogen gas. Rekka: Okay, but I hope that's the extra book that's in your contracts, cause now I want to read that. Premee: Well, if they want a book four, it's obviously going to have the main character be a cloud of nitrogen gas, yeah. Rekka: Excellent. Kaelyn: Outstanding. Perfect. [laughing] Yeah, but hearing what you said honestly, that's exactly what I would be doing. If I was writing this myself, I don't write, but if someone put a sword to my neck and said write something, and then I had to write more of it when I'd finished, that's what I would do. [laughing] Rekka: It's a nice, neat episode. Like, Premee is doing it, right. Aside from the pa... I even think you're doing the panic right. Kaelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Premee: I think I did the panic right. Rekka: Yeah. Premee: I didn't go outside and run around or anything; there's a plague. I panicked safely and quietly in my house. And I texted a whole bunch of friends. And depending on whether they were in publishing or not, they had some very encouraging messages to send back to me. It's like at the end you have to build in the time to let the manuscript sit and marinate in its own juices for a while, you got to build in like a little bit at the start to panic before you start writing the book. Rekka: Oh, absolutely. Yes. And it sounds like your editors have every reason to have the confidence to just let you go for it. Premee: I hope so. Well, and I think my editor knows, too, that the novel that I queried with was like my 10th or 11th novel, somewhere around there. I've written like 20 books. I think he knows I can write books. So I think he's just okay to have it just like trebuched over the Atlantic Ocean when I'm done, which is what I did with the last one. And then I ate a cupcake. Kaelyn: It's a well-deserved cupcake to be sure. Rekka: Well, I'm going to make myself a cupcake and finish book two when we get off this call because I'm very excited now. I was not reading it fast because I bought it in print and I read faster and e-book but I couldn't not have... There they are. Premee: I can see them, oh my gosh. [laughing] Rekka: Yes, I couldn't not have them next to each other on the shelf. So, cupcakes for everyone, and empanadas for Kaelyn because Kaelyn wants empanadas. Premee: I would like an empanada. Rekka: Okay, empanadas for everyone, cupcakes for everyone. Kaelyn: I'll take a cupcake too, I mean, they're not mutually exclusive. [laughing] Rekka: And good luck to you for the remaining what, 50,000 words or so of the book? Premee: Yeah, 50k, 55k, something like that, yeah. Rekka: Yeah. So you're aiming for around 90k to 100k? Premee: Yeah, well, the first one was 109k and the second one was 111k. So if this one is in kinda in that range or a little bit shorter, it might get bumped up in edit because that happened last time as well. So, yeah. Rekka: Like we say, we have to add words to fix problems. So there you go. So, well, I'm extremely excited that you are writing a third book in the story even if you are going through some pains to do it. And I appreciate that, personally, that you're doing that for me. Kaelyn: Just Rekka, Rekka specifically, no one else. Premee: Just you, my favorite fan. [laughing] Rekka: And I'm sure our audience appreciates the advice because there is always the chance that okay, you start a book and you finish it and you print it. And then okay, well, I want to go back to that. Either that or the editor shoves you back to that, and then maybe it happens again. So I think you can end up in that moment of panic and still make the book happen. And it's just words. Premee: It's just words. Rekka: You can just keep spewing words. Kaelyn: No big deal at all. Rekka: And then you can have cupcakes. So Premee, many cupcakes to you. And thank you so much for coming on and talking about this. I hope it was a little cathartic, too. Premee: It was, and thank you so so much for inviting me. This was something I don't think I've been thinking very clearly about and it was nice to get my thoughts organized about writing the third book in a duology. Rekka: Well, I couldn't resist the subject matter. [laughing] Kaelyn: I mean, where can everyone find you? Definitely check out Premee's website. There's some really awesome, very well thought out essays and writing on there. Some really good advice in those, I think. Premee: Thank you. Rekka: Premee, you are now an expert. Premee: Yeah, again, I really need to learn how to write, though. Where can people find me? I am on Twitter a lot at @premeesaurus, which I'm sure will be in the show notes. Yeah, and on my website at premeemohamed.com, where I try to keep up with podcasts and appearances and classes that I'm teaching and whatnot, and also my curious fictions page. And today, I put up a blog post about my guest editor stint at Apparition Lit and how we chose those stories. So if people would like to check those three things out, that is where you can find me. Rekka: And the links will be below as ever. And Premee, thank you again. Kaelyn: Yeah, this was fantastic. Rekka: I'm looking forward to reading everything that you do, all your many books that are coming out this year, or have already. Kaelyn: Rekka is going to be standing outside your door doing the creepy scratchy thing going, "Is it done?" [laughing] Premee: I'll be like, "Here's a book. If I give you a book, will you go away?" [laughing] “Yes.” “Gosh, that was easy.” Rekka: For a little while. [laughing] Premee: Just sitting outside on my balcony reading, I'm like, "Oh god, you're still there?" [laughing] Kaelyn: People will be coming over going, "What?" "It's Rekka, it's fine, it's fine. Long story, just no sudden movements." Premee: It's a long story. Hang on, I'll give her a snack. Here's a short story. Rekka: Well, luckily, I tend to get sleepy when I read, so a book lasts me a lot longer than you might expect so... [laughing] Well, thank you again. Premee: Yeah, I hope you enjoy the second one. Rekka: I know that I will. So thank you again. Premee: And thank you so so much for inviting me. Rekka: We were so happy to have you. And everyone, we will be back in two weeks. And I'm sure we will not top this episode, ever, but we'll try. Thanks everyone.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett A Ship With No Parrot by R J Theodore (MetaStellar) Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: We're talking today about writing with a friend. Hopefully a friend. If not a friend, then a partner. Rekka: Hopefully a friend for longer than it takes to write the project. K: Hopefully a friend after you're done. [laughing] R: Yes, before and after. Hey, even after is probably more important than before. Let's be clear that you don't wanna destroy a relationship, but you can make a new friend. K: Yes, absolutely. Let's talk first about, why would you do this? R: [giggles] K: Why would you want to - and, okay so maybe a little context first. I will admit I have never worked on a project that a single story had been written or contributed to by two different people. R: As an editor, you mean? K: Yes. R: Ok. K: So why would you do this? It seems like a difficult thing to do. And for context, Rekka has done this a couple times. So Rekka, why would you do this? R: Because writing is lonely, and the idea that someone else will work on a project with you is just like the biggest longest most creative sleepover ever. K: Okay! R: It's a good reason. K: That is certainly a good reason, writing is lonely. I think a lot of writers, their editor when they get one is the first time they're really having somebody to collaborate with, and to talk to. R: To go back and forth. K: Yeah, but the editor is not writing the book. R: I know! Which is unfair, honestly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I wanna know who I talk to about this. K: Yeah but you know what you're right, writing is a lonely process. There's a lot of time spent sitting by yourself just having to think. R: And having feelings. K: Yeah. If you're writing with someone, you get to share those with someone else. R: And shout about things. K: Absolutely. Shouting is a necessary component to that 100% — R: It's actually kinda how it gets started, there's a lot of enthusiastic shouting about an idea. K: [laughing] R: But you know what stinks? Is that you still have to write alone. K: Well and that's exactly what I was gonna ask you. So okay, let's go through this. You've decided I'm tired of being alone here, I want to also inflict this upon somebody else. So what do you do? R: [deep sigh] How do you find someone else to inflict things upon? So the first person that I sat down to write a project with was a friend, and we said like hey we should try this out! And we were both writers to begin with, writing in fairly different genres but still genre fiction. And we decided we were going to do a project and we said hey, it will be this, like we outlined it together. We - or we didn't so much outline it together but we concepted it out together. K: Okay. R: And then we each created a POV character as part of that concept. And then we wrote our chapters back and forth, so that the tone, the voice, for that POV character is consistent. K: Mhm. R: And so that you can have a character that's slightly unreliable, just because like you couldn't catch all the continuity errors, that you and your partner - K [overlapping]: Mhm. Yup. R: - created. It also lets you kind of reshuffle the scenes if you need to later, uh move things around a little bit easier, extract things if you need to without losing too many threads. But my other experience in doing it we did not, we had one POV. So, it doesn't have to be done that way. K: Tell us about the time you wrote one POV. R: I sort of went through my text file that I keep on my phone that's just like the little random lines and concepts, phrases that occur to me. And so the writing partner latched onto one and said, “That's interesting, let's work with that.” And then that was it, we just kind of went. I wrote something and sent it to him, and then I think we gave a week or two weeks max for each turnaround, so that one person wasn't waiting on the other forever. So it kinda bounced back and forth, and it would twist a little, like I'd get back and reread what the new words were and I'd be like oh okay, that's where that's going now. K: [chuckles] R: So it felt a little bit like improv, where somebody tosses you something, and y - the guide for improv is don't say “no,” say “yes, and...” So I think I had more of that spirit in the second project than I did in the first time attempting it, where um. As a kid I used to play with my friends and we'd get the toys all out and I'd immediately have a plot. And my friends would never adhere to it - K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: Because of course they didn't know it. They would have whatever toy they were holding do a thing and I'd be like “No no no not that, have it do this.” So I can't imagine I was much fun to play with. Nor was it probably much fun to try and write with me on the project where I didn't have the spirit of “yes, and...” I had more like “mmm. That's interesting, how's that gonna fit back into where I'm taking this?” K: Well and that's a very good point, is I think if you're going to write with somebody it has to be a genuinely collaborative effort, rather than someone coming in with a story and having someone else tell it. R: Yeah and like I said, both times it was starting from a concept that, it wasn't like, “Oh I wanna write this book, do you wanna write it with me?” K: Mhm. R: So it was two people coming together each time saying “let's work together on a thing, what should we work on, do you have any ideas, yeah sure how ‘bout this concept, okay that's interesting what can we do with that? And then how do you wanna do this? Like okay I'll write some and then you write some and then I'll write some and then you write some. K: So like just examples off the top of my head, did you read This Is How You Lose the Time War? R: Yes. K: Yeah, so that was, so that's a novella actually written by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. And I remember going like huh, I'm curious to see how they did this, and I went back and I think I read an interview or something with them, and sure enough what they did was they outlined a plot, and then they took turns writing the letters in it, and - R: But not only that, interesting point that maybe you want to cut me off and say we'll get to that in a second - K: No, no prob. [laughing] R: But they wrote it at the same table, part of it at least. K: Yes. If you haven't read This Is How You Lose the Time War, read it, it's very good and it's a quick read. R: It won awards for a reason. K: I - yeah, it won a lot of awards. [chuckles] But the entire story is told through letters being sent back and forth between Agent Red and Agent Blue, both of whom work for separate agencies that go back in time and change things to make history fit what they want it to be. So I remember reading in this that sometimes they were, like they were writing the letters and then mailing them to each other essentially, and letting the other person correspond and reply, it was almost a bit of role-playing. But yes they did write some of it sitting across from each other. But then another good example that's the opposite: Good Omens was written by Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett and they both - R [overlapping]: [laughing] I was thinking of The Omen, and I'm like, I didn't know - wait what?! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: They wrote that? Okay, I've caught up, continue. K: Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett, one of them wrote a lot of the main story, and then the other one fleshed out a lot of it. There's a main plot that but there's a lot of other stuff going on, and there's a lot of ancillary characters that turn out to be important to the plot but they never really gave a clear answer if it was like an assignment list so to speak, if there was like a breakdown of who was doing what. It sounds like they are just very good friends who were both very talented writers and were able to do this. I do see a lot of times when there's two authors involved, it's two different POVs, and - which is a perfectly intriguing way to do it. R: The way I always imagine it is that it starts with some sort of conference call or in-person visit, and the bones of the story are shaped out there. And then, at least far enough ahead that people can get to work writing. Because okay we're back to writing being lonely, you do have to go back to your own desk - K: [giggles] R: - and work on the project from your side, by yourself. I have heard of people writing in Google Docs so they can see the other people's words appear at - that just seems like chaos mode. K: I will say that's how I take notes at work when I'm on a call with multiple people from my side and like, I won't say it's easy, it's not terrible. R: It's very distracting. K: [chuckles] R: So I mean that would be a tremendously interesting way to do it, I would love to try that sometime. But coordinating that puts you back into the whole like ‘we have to be at the same place at the same time' aspect, which is probably not one of the benefits that most people would list of co-writing, is that you write your part of it without having to wait for the other person until like your check-in, and then you see what's come up with the other person's side of things and then you go back. And I will say again, the first time I tried to do this, we were writing in a shared Scrivener file. K: Okay. R: This was before Scrivener had real integration with Dropbox. K: The dark ages, yeah. R: Well no but - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I don't think it would work now, because back then two people could open the same Scrivener document. Now Scrivener will tell you sorry, you can't. It would have to go back to Google Docs or something, if we wanted to do it that way where we could see all the bones of the project coming together. The second time, we were just emailing a Word document back and forth that was updated and trying to keep them straight and not work in an old version. Which didn't happen, it was short enough that I don't think either of us were confused. K: How important is it to set down rules, so to speak? Of like, “Okay. This is how this is going to happen. Then we're going to, you know, everything must be tracked here, or you have to let the other person know if you're changing something to this.” I imagine it would depend on, are you both writing in the same document or are you each writing from a separate POV and then they're gonna be combined. How did you manage that? R: So it's interesting you ask that, because the first time, my partner and I actually wrote up a contract. K: I almost asked you, and I was like you know what, that seems like something maybe you wouldn't do right at the start of this, but - R: No, I think it's important. It's a good idea to have a contract that outlines who's responsible for what, how quickly people are expected to get things back - K: Mhm. R: How royalties are going to be split. K [overlapping]: Okay. R: Like if somebody's only responsible for the outline, in terms of word count they haven't contributed the same as the other person, but is it possible that you're splitting it 50/50? Either way, put it in writing, because that protects your estate later on from trying to come after somebody in arguing how much should or shouldn't be shared. It also can say like alright, this project is dissolved if the person takes more than two months to come back with their paragraph contribution for the week. K: Yeah. R: You know, all the questions that you just outlined can be described in there, including things like how are we going to edit this? Are we going to finish this project by taking it to a professional editor, like all the nitty gritty details can go, if not in a contract, in a project outline that can be referenced in a contract. K: All of the things we've been saying in the 60-something episodes of this podcast, now imagine you have to okay them with somebody else. R: Yeah. K [laughing]: Like - R: It depends on the personalities involved. One person might be like, ‘I'm going to leave all these decisions to you.' K: Mhm. ‘I'm just here to write,' yeah. R: Well ‘I just wanna write' or ‘I am - my faith in you and your ability to do these things is greater than my willingness to try and learn them,' and then the other person saying like ‘Yes, I agree to also take on all those tasks.' K: Mhm. R: So yeah. The first project, we drew up a contract and we said what the project was, who was going to - that we were splitting it, not necessarily like even chapters but that we were going to have two POVs and the POVs would each be the responsibility of a different person. K: Did you have an expected word count? R: Yeah. I think it was a little bit like a query letter, in terms of the way that the project was described. (I was looking for it but I couldn't find it.) In the way that the project was described and then in the way that we talked about the production timeline after, it was a little bit more like a marketing plan even. Including distribution: how were we going to release this? Was it going to be Kindle Unlimited or was it going to be distributed wide through all the retailers? K: You do need something like that, because let's say you start writing with somebody and you get pretty far down the path and it turns out you fundamentally disagree on what to do with the book. Well each of you have the files now presumably, [laughing] so - R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: What are you gonna do? R: You have to trust that the other person's not going to run off with it. Also, that's what the contract is, to ensure that they don't. K: Did you sit down and kind of come up with some agreed upon stylistic choices? R: In the sense of what? Like, comp title kind of things? K: Not just comp title, but stylistic in terms of writing. Granted if you're writing two different POVs you can attribute these things to a character, but like did you decide ‘Okay this is going to be descriptive, we're going to really emphasize the natural beauty of the setting,' or ‘we're going to make sure the characters always take note of a certain thing so that we can note it to the reader.' How'd you handle worldbuilding? How did you come to terms with all of the things that an author typically has to decide on their own? R: We did not, I think in either case really, get into that. K: Okay. R: We knew enough of each other's writing to sort of know what we were getting into. K: Yeah, and that's a very good point by the way; probably don't try to collaborate on a writing project with somebody whose writing you've never read before. R: Yeah. At the very least read some before you finalize all your contracts. K: Yes. I'd say that's important and, I'm not saying this to be mean or flippant, the last thing you want is to get started on a project and find out the person's not actually a very good writer. R: Or that your styles just don't make for good story together. You are not going to find a writer who writes exactly like you; don't assume that you aren't going to come up against like ‘Oh, I don't actually enjoy reading this from you.' K: Yeah. R: You want to challenge yourself and see how you can make your two styles fit together. Because if you're not growing as you work on anything then why bother? But you also don't want it to be such a challenge that you cannot enjoy the process. K: So what do you do when you have disagreements about something? R: Well hopefully the answer is something that you've already figured out in the contract, like if you're - K: Okay. R: It's kinda like when a company goes back to their mission statement to figure out how to proceed with something. K: What about if it's a story-related thing that's not necessarily outlined in the contract? R: Give me an example. K: Alright so, let's say in the end of the fifth season of Buffy there was like a fight in the writers' room about - uh, spoiler for a show that's been off the air for about 15 years, everyone - ‘we think Buffy maybe needs to die,' ‘no there's no reason she has to die,' and then… there's a fight! [chuckles] R: Hopefully your contract has a walking clause. Something that says like alright, if at some point the parties can't decide on where the story should go, they can walk away, and at that point maybe they decide, or maybe in your contract it should say, that you need to pick who gets to take the story with them - K [overlapping]: Mhm, yeah. R: - if somebody still wants to write it. ‘Cause that's something that wasn't in the contract for my first one, and part of me - like I wouldn't write the same story -  K: Mhm. R: We never finished it. I wouldn't write the same story but there are elements I'd like to take, but they're elements that would be recognizable enough. K: Mhm. R: So, how should we have proceeded? Probably one of us should - well at this point I could write to the person and say, “Hey, I wanna write this story, do you mind if I write this story on my own, not giving you any credit?” K [chuckles]: Yeah. Or if you do, how do I compensate you accordingly? R: Or just an acknowledgement, like I'll acknowledge that the story started, and then y'know life happened, we didn't finish it. K: Well that's a form of compensation. R: Yeah. Acknowledgement is like credit in a certain way, without - but again, in that email you say, “Okay cool.” And they write back and they're like, “Fine,” and I say, “Great. Here's something I'd like you to sign, just to say that like you are aware that I am writing this, and that I'm writing it all on my own -” K [overlapping]: Yup. R: “Using new material. And that, the only thing you expect is to get a nod in the acknowledgements.” That's something that you can do if you get to the point where you disagree on something and there's no - it's like if you're to the point of fisticuffs you should probably walk away, or take a break. Are you so stressed about either the project or whatever that you're just lashing out, or is this actually a problem, this relationship that you're working in? K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: So, you know, be an adult. K: And listen, by the way. I have writers that get, I mean, so defensive, about just - no one that I've worked with on a published book, but people I've talked to, people who've asked for advice and different things. And they're so defensive about the story to an editor. Imagine, again, trying to write this with another person. R: That's the thing is you really have to gauge how well you're going to work together with this person. K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: Do you just wanna do stuff because you're friends and you like spending time with them? That might not be enough to go on for the amount of, like think of the anguish that you put into a novel project in the first place. You would think that co-authoring means you share that anguish, but you actually just each have your own anguish - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - which might make you less compatible than you are at the start. K: My grandmother always says to never marry somebody before you've taken a three-day bus trip across country with them. I kind of feel like with writers it's like alright, I wanna see you two cook dinner together in the same kitchen, making the same dish. Like you, you have to collectively present me with one dish. And let's see how that goes. [laughing] R: Are you following a recipe or are you creating a recipe? K: You have to decide. R: Hm. K: But you actually, you kinda touched on something interesting there, which is the other form of collaborative writing that I've seen in query letters a lot, you said “Is this just your friend that you wanna hang out with and spend time with?” And where I get a lot of those from is roleplaying games. R: Mhm. K: There's a lot of thought and worldbuilding and character development and everything that goes into those. The, I hesitate to even call them players, by that point they're basically writers, put a lot of time and effort into developing these characters and these worlds and things and then they interact with other people who help them contribute and grow, and that is a way that I've seen some collaborative writing come to fruition is, start out as a game. R: You have to be a very caring person to be a good gamemaster, in that you have to care about the experience of the people that you are essentially having a collaborative worldbuilding experience with. You have to want them to have fun, or they're not going to have fun. K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: You have to have set up different paths that they can choose to take so that they have some agency in the experience as well, and you have to be willing to say ‘yes and' rather than ‘no.' And you have to be willing to accept that sort of spontaneity. The best path forward may not always be the one you expect, but if you care about working with someone in a way that 1) doesn't negate their contribution - K: Mhm. R: - and make it seem like ugh, well that almost matches what I would've done; like it's not about anybody looking for permission from somebody else, it's unwinding this coil of like where is this going, and unwinding it together. So we mentioned before that there are experiences where somebody writes the outline and somebody else writes the story to the outline, and I think that's another balancing act because as somebody writes to an outline that they've made for themselves, they feel free to deviate from it. And I imagine that also happens when they write to an outline that somebody else has written. But also, writing an outline doesn't quite transmit everything that goes into a story. It's very hard to imagine what a person intended for an entire scene based on a single sentence or a couple of sentences. So there's gotta be a lot of letting go; if one person is handling one creative step and another person is handling another creative step, again that contract but also your expectations have to be that like that first person is going to be letting go of a lot of control of the story if they're not going to participate in the writing of it. K: It certainly is an exercise in having to give up and trust somebody with something that you created and love. R: It's interpersonal relationships on a scale that usually you can separate from your personal creative self, and you would expect to put this much work into a business project or a marriage or opening a business with somebody - and again like, have a contract. Yeah you are putting that much effort into this. K: You're opening a business with someone in a respect; you're creating a product. R: Yeah we're creating a product here that can be sold and resold and rights have to be licensed and - K: Mhm. R: You have to envision the success of this to really get a grip on all the things you have to consider. You can't just ‘oh haha this'll be fun' if you are going to publish it, because you never know where it's gonna go. K: Look at some of the greatest duos of what-have-you that fell apart because of differences in ideas. R: Mhm. I mean here are the advice like, never work for friends, watch out, you'll ruin your relationship if you try to do this, I mean that's kind of true of this if you don't go into it with the right mindframe. K: So now that we've scared the hell out of everybody and never gonna wanna write a collaborative project together. What were some of the fun things about it? R: The brainstorming at the beginning was definitely really fun. Sit down with somebody that you like and you talk about what ideas might come out of something, depending on your level of prepwork, you might've had a really long conversation or you have lots of these little visual pieces that you're gonna see how you're gonna string together. Or you might have just kinda said ‘well let's just see where it goes.' K: Mhm. R: Which I think was my experience the second time, once we picked that concept out of my Word doc of random ideas that I've had. K [laughing]: By the way, if you're listening to this and you wanna be a writer and you don't have a Word document of random ideas you've had please start one immediately. R: Hopefully if you're called to be a writer and you go ‘oh, you mean I should've been writing all those down,' as opposed to like ‘oh I've gotta start coming up with ideas' - like I think if you're at the point where you don't even have ideas - K: I'm saying for ideas you've already had. R: Okay. K: You need to have a good place to keep them. R: Jot them down. But yeah, so we picked something out of my book of ideas. If it's a collaborative effort between friends, it might've even been something like that started as a Twitter conversation and now you're writing it. So wherever you get your idea from, it usually starts with social connection, friendship, enthusiasm, and hopefully it's all mutual. And then you go to the, ‘okay, are we really doing this?' K: [giggles] R: ‘Let's start the contract.' If the person's not comfortable entering into a contract with you, then that's a red flag right there, that one of you is uncomfortable with what it's gonna take to finish this project out. Because the contract is the thing that's gonna see you through it all, so if you stop and you refuse to move forward at that point, that saves everybody some trouble. But the fun things about it are that starting moment, where the excitement is just zapping back and forth between the two of you, whether online or in person. K: Mhm. R: And then seeing what the other person wrote every week and getting to respond to it in like kind. It's a little bit like writing fanfiction, in real time, with an author. K: [laughing] R: And then the other person can feel the exact same way, that they are the one writing the fanfic in real time with the author. And hopefully it is a surprise every time that you open the document to see what's new. And then you pick someone whose writing you like, whose writing you enjoy, and then honestly it kinda carries you through the submissions process. ‘Cause you're like okay well it can't be that bad because I respect this person's writing - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - so if they liked it, then there's just a little like ‘no, this isn't bad,' that you can hold in your heart when you get a rejection from a magazine or something. K: Aww. R: Because like, you have faith that the other person knows what they're doing, and they have faith that you know what you're doing, and together you have this piece that you both believe in, even if you are believing in only half of it. [chuckles] And not the half that, you know, you worked on. So it's just really nice, yeah. K [overlapping]: In the end you're coming together to all believe together. R: Yeah I mean, we kinda, like in the second case it was a short story, and we did finish it. So, going back and forth, one person writing a few thousand words or like kinda getting to the end of a scene, like that break moment kinda thing where like - K: Yup. R: Fade to black, commercial break, whatever you wanna call it, and then going ‘ok! I just feel good about that writing session; I'm sending this back to you.' We did that a few times back and forth. One of us sent the first 500 words in November. By the time we had finished it, it was February of the following year. And, so that's pretty quick - K: Yeah that's really quick. R: We were both on top of it; we only sent it back like a couple of times. I think our total word count is 4100 words, so, at most that was like eight back and forth of - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - 500 words each, or I think some of them were a little bit longer. I think once we sorta started to see where it was going some of us were - some of us - [chuckles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Half of us - one of us would write more of that, and the other person would write more of the other. K: Okay. R: So, and then after that, we started talking about like okay what do you wanna do now, ‘let's sit on it for a month' was the response, and then we picked some markets to target and one of us was just in charge of submitting them. K: So you, you had a system, you had a plan. R: Yeah. We didn't have a contract on that one, maybe we should. The nice thing is when you say you're co-authoring, the magazine tends to send two separate payments. K: Okay, nice. R: Or at least in my experience so far, of selling this once. K: [laughing] So overall, a good experience? R: Yeah! Yeah, that one was a lot of fun. Like I said, having a totally different attitude toward where it was going and who was in charge - which was neither of us or both of us? - it was a very different experience than the first time. My first experience was with someone, we were trying to write a whole novel, and I think our intent was it might be a series. So this was like long-haul planning, and it wasn't long before I realized like I don't think our styles really mesh. And he also wrote really really fast, and kind of expected me to write really really fast, so I would turn around something after working on it for like a week or so, and then the next day he'd be like ‘okay, your turn.' And I'd be like ‘oh, see, um, this isn't the only thing I wanna work on.' [laughing] K: Yeah. [chuckles] R: And so it was also, I think, in the middle of the final phases of getting Flotsam out, so it probably felt like a disruption, and the fact that he was turning things around so fast was like, frustrating to me. Whereas like I would work on something for awhile and then think like ‘okay, there, done, check it off my list' - K [chuckles]: Deep breath, yeah. R: And the next day it'd be on my list again. K: That can get a little stressful, certainly. R: Yeah. K: I guess the takeaway from all of this then is whether or not you have a good experience with this, a lot of it comes down to you. R: And planning and expectation yeah. K: Yeah. R: You could go to the Happiest Place On Earth and be a total stick in the mud about it, so - K: Yes. R: Like, that's true of everything. K: Yeah. Yeah but there's certain things you can do to make sure that it doesn't become a miserable experience, certainly. R: Yeah. Or, that you have a way out if it does. K: Yes, yes, there you go. So yeah I think that's - any, Rekka, any parting thoughts, any final suggestions or advice? R: If it's something that you've wanted to do, I definitely recommend doing it. Try it out and see. Hopefully, it doesn't break a friendship - [giggles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Y'know, the first time you try it. Having that contract will go a long way to having a mutual not-fun-anymore clause. If neither party is interested in going forward, then that's it. That's all that has to be said, and the project is dissolved. And if the other person is loving where it was going and wants to keep going with it, then you just have that release agreement, where like “I don't expect any royalties or anything from this, you go ahead and have fun with it.” You hate to think that you need a contract to go do something that you and a friend both love doing, but ahh, I really think it's a good idea. K: It's probably, yeah. R: At worst, it doesn't hurt, and at best, it protects you and it gives you something to fall back on if things aren't going well. But, hopefully things go very very well and you end up with a story and you sell it, like I did! K: There you go. Rekka, what's the story you sold? R: [giggles] K: You knew I was gonna ask you about - R: Maurice Broaddus and I wrote a story called The Archivist, and it sold to Lightspeed magazine and should come out sometime within the next nine months or so. One day I imagine I will wake up and have been tagged on Twitter. K: It's just gonna be on there, yeah. R: And I will be able to share it then. My recent story on MetaStellar I was told the date, and then a few days ahead of time I was told what the URL would be and when it would go live, so I was able to prepare, which was nice. K: Very nice! As always, we hope we left you with some food for thought. R: It's worth doing, if only to find out whether you enjoy it or not, but also keep in mind that it takes the right pair of minds to do it. So if you don't enjoy the first time, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun again. But I hope you love it, ‘cause I did enjoy it, and I really am proud of the story that came out of it. I would not have written that story on my own. K: Oh, okay, well great! R: Which is another point, like I shouldn't leave off without saying that, but like we created a story that neither of us would've written if it was just working alone. K: Greater than the sum of their parts. R: Or at least greater than the sum of half the parts. [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Alright, well that is probably enough. If you want more, or you want to be notified when the story goes live, you can send us a message on Twitter or Instagram, we are @WMBcast. You can also find us on WMBcast.com with all our old episodes. If you are listening from the future, I might come back and add the link to that story when it does go live, to the show notes. If you are listening from a very very profitable future - K [overlapping]: [giggles] R: - you might consider going to Patreon.com/WMBcast to support us financially, but we don't need that! What we would really really love are some ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast aggregator, whichever you're listening to right now. That would be so, so helpful; it helps people find us. We had someone shouting on Twitter the other day saying like ‘why are more of you not listening to this podcast?' I guarantee it's because it's hard to find podcasts, unless they have really good ratings and reviews. So please, drop us some five stars and some glowing words, they don't have to be expansive. Just like ‘this podcast rocks!' I mean, that's what I think, that's what I would write. You can use that though. I'm not gonna hold you on a contract or anything. K: [laughing] R: Alright, two weeks from now we'll be talking about something entirely different, but probably just as goofy.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 62 Transcription After intro: [00:26] Kaelyn: We're talking today about reader tension and tense situations and managing these things. And you know getting the, kinda grabbing everyone and wanting to be like ‘this is important and there's peril and stakes here, and you should pay attention to this.' Rekka: This was another topic that was suggested to us by an uncredited listener, because I failed to write down all the people who suggested a very long list of topics that we will be going through. So I apologize, feel free to @ us on Twitter and take credit for the topic. But the original question posed was how to manage reader stress, and I assume they mean the tension and anxiety that our reader feels as they go through your plot. Because, as Kaelyn pointed out, you don't want to get so anxious and wound up over a plot that you can't finish the story and you need to protect yourself for self care reasons and back away. K: We're interpreting this question as not managing the external stress of readers. There's generally not a lot a book or an author can do about that, so please don't try. R: Although! A good book can really help you escape. K: Absolutely, yes. Maybe a book that's just full of pictures of puppies. R: Also good! K: Yeah. R: Yeah. So, the anxiety and tension that we're talking about is being cast upon the reader intentionally to draw them into your story. But how do you make sure you don't go too far, and how do you ramp up tension where you want it so that they aren't just kinda reading it and being like ‘I don't care about any of this.' K: Building tension is, it's difficult. For two reasons: one, it's a hard thing to do in writing, but then two, it's also very difficult to place it in a story. Let's qualify here depending on your genre, if you're writing a suspense thriller that's just going to be a tense situation [laughing] throughout the book. Most books, I would argue the majority of books, have some sort of conflict in them. There's going to be a point at which things come to a head. It could be physical, it could be mental, it could be, you know, strictly verbal confrontation. It could be characters that never actually meet but you know were seeing each other's perspectives as they, I dunno interact over the computer, they're both trying to hack the same database at the same time.  K:I have a friend who trains people in various business ventures, and one of the things she always says is “conflict is crucible.” And what she's kinda saying there is that when you're trying to solve a problem you have to resign yourself to some conflict, because conflict helps you get information, it helps you understand what you're looking at, it helps you understand the stakes. And I think that applies well to writing, because the conflict, first of all, builds richer characters, it builds a better storyline, it helps us understand motivations and actions better. But it's also really engaging. That's kinda what we're here for. R: Yeah, I would say that a story without conflict is going to be a very milquetoast kind of story. It doesn't matter what scale the conflict happens on, but - K: Mhm. R: - you want some kind of ‘what's going to happen' to linger, right up until the end of your story, you just want to kind of change like ‘ooh! Now that happened, what's going to happen now?' You know, it kind of elevates in stages. So every story is going to have conflict that's on a - that is proportional to the scale of the story being told. So, it doesn't always have to be end of the world scenarios; it can be ‘this person needs to sort their life out, and will they get that job they want, and will their roommate discover that they're actually a sorcerer?' K: I mean I hope so. R: Right? Those kinds of conflicts can be big or small; it's the stakes of the story. And you want your reader invested in the stakes of the story, so you want them to feel a little bit of anxiety about how the story's going to go. If they don't, then they can drift away from the book at any point and forget to pick it up ever again. K: I look back at things that I read as an adult, and things that I read as a kid, and the like really intense parts where you're like trying to keep yourself from skipping ahead on the page - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - and you know reading as fast as possible - R: Kaelyn that is cheating. K: I know! But like I - tell my brain. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You know but where you're like ‘oh my god I gotta know what happens, I gotta know what happens!' And then sometimes - R: Just so everyone knows, as an editor Kaelyn wants to know the end - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: Like as soon as the author knows it. So don't feel like she just skips to the end in books she picks up at the bookstore, no she wants the spoilers all the time. K: I need to know the end to a story. I'm not one of those people who waits ‘til a series comes out to read the books, because I can't wait that long - R [overlapping]: Mhm! K: - to be [???], I need a fix in there somewhere. But this is why I'm like weirdly into unsolved mystery kinda things, because I just need to know what happened, like [laughing] I always say if I could have a superpower, it's not that I want to time travel. I don't wanna like go back and interact and change things. R: Or go forward and get lottery numbers. K: Yeah I just wanna be able to like astral project or something so I can just, I just wanna see what happened. I just wanna know what actually happened, you know, who shot JFK? What'd they do with the aliens at Rosland? Did we land on the moon? I mean - R: Roswell. K: Roswell, yes. Why did I say Rosland? R: Maybe you know something we don't because you went back in time. K: It's possible. It's very possible. But yeah, I am someone who like feeds off of that tension. And I love intrigue, I love building the story, and by the way I just touched on another way you build tension here, which is not always necessarily conflict; sometimes it's mystery. Sometimes the stakes are trying to find something, or figure something out, or solve a puzzle, or learn someone's true identity. There was definitely a heyday for this sort of thing in the 90s and 2000s, especially with young adult literature, where a lot of the tension that was building in the book was people trying to get answers about a mysterious prophecy or an object or find a lost relic. R: Ohhh, I love a good lost relic. K: Ah, the best. Romantic tension is also a thing. R: You would have to imagine it is, because in the romance novels like that is - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: - the main plot of the book. So a will-they-won't-they is a ‘what's going to happen next?' K: Yeah, a will-they-won't-they, or how will they get through this, will they ever find each other again. So I think when we say like tension in the book we're picturing like a big Lord of the Rings style - R: Oh I'm imagining the boulder in Indiana Jones just hovering over everybody. K: Okay! Or that, you know we're thinking of like direct action and conflict. But tension can be built a lot of different ways. It's not always ‘I'm going to fight this knight now to free the dragon,' and yes in my scenario we free dragons, we don't slay them. R: Absolutely! K: Dragons are people too. R: Yeah. K: Creating tension for readers is part of what's compelling about a book. Now, sometimes these get a little out of hand. I'm gonna qualify that again, genre matters a lot here. If we're talking about like a spy thriller, if we're talking about a murder mystery, a suspense thriller, something like that. Yeah, you should go in expecting a lot of tension, you should know what you're getting out of that genre. Rekka, can you think of any books offhand that you had to like put down and walk away from? R: Because there was too much tension? K: Because the situation, the intensity of the situation was making you uncomfortable. R: Hmm. K: I can think of a couple. I'm not gonna say what they are, but I've definitely had that happen. R: So you're asking if that's happened? K: Yes. Has that ever happened to you? R: No. I've never put down a book because I was uncomfortable with high levels of tension; I've put down books because there was little tension and I wasn't grabbed. K: I've got a really thick skin when it comes to this stuff, there isn't a lot that bothers me. There's been two books that, one where it was just like the violence and the tension was just getting gratuitous. With that case it wasn't that it was making me uncomfortable. It was almost like coming full circle and getting pedantic. This is so ridiculous it's almost erased the tension, I'm no longer able to suspend my disbelief. R: Okay. So, what does that say about the author's ability to manage the tension? K: Not doing a great job. R: What was broken, if you wanna use that word, in that case? K: I think in this case, there was too much trying to shock people. Trying to shock the readers reading it. R: Okay, is that tension though? K: The scenario of the book was a group of people going through some kind of a building, I don't even remember what it was, and they're getting picked off by monsters and booby traps the whole time. It started out well, because it's dark, there's a lot of sounds and things and nobody's quite sure what's like, is that us, is it something else, is something following us, we know this place is full of danger okay we just have to get through here, and then what was happening was characters were dying. They were dying in horrible ways, and they were being very - described in great detail. And again, I have a really thick skin for this. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me. But what was happening was it was actually getting to the point that it was breaking the tension a little bit, because they were losing me there.  K: So I think the author's intention was to really up the scale and the stakes, because it wasn't just like ‘and a hole opened, and Jonathan fell through and we heard screams and then nothing.' Like first of all it was breaking the tension of the story stopping to describe all of this stuff. But beyond that, it was - I don't know. It was a very strange reaction, a very strange feeling, where it was kind of like I can't tell if this is making me nauseous or if I'm bored. R: Okay. This is making me think of the movie Thirteen Ghosts. K: Yes. R: Does this, is this ringing true for you? K: That is definitely ringing true for me. I had a similar experience with that movie. On the flip side, the other one that I had to put down and walk away had to do with sex. The tension that they were building with this couple that wasn't really a couple, and the dichotomy and the power struggles here, and the clear anxiety of one character vs not the other that I think was supposed to be building romantic tension, and ooh they're so into each other, it didn't at all. R: Okay. K: It was actually, I can't read this. As I've been talking through both of these you sort of pointed something out: was it the tension or was it things that writers were trying to use to create tension that weren't actually tension-building devices? R: Right. It sounds like people are trying to use some visuals and elements that are, let's say, flashes in the pan - K: Mhm. R: - in terms of the effect they have on the reader, versus something that's actually building a landscape over which the story is traveling. And it's the landscape I would argue that you want, because jumpscares are great for a horror movie, but once you've calmed down, that's all there is. Versus actually building, in that case, dread or fear. So things that have an intense effect but the effect is not lasting I don't think are going to be what you want to use when you're trying to control how the reader paces themself to get to the end of your book. K: I think in the example I used with the violence one, you know you have these characters, they're trying to get from point A to point B, and they're getting picked off or killed horribly one by one. And on some level I understand what the author was trying to do there. Instead of simply saying ‘and this person's dead now,' they're upping the intensity of the situation by showing that they're not dead, they're dying horribly. So you're getting the collective fear and horror built into the group of the remaining survivors so you're empathizing with them more. In that scenario, I see what they were doing. They were trying to use this gore and this violence to instill an intensity in you, but it got to the point that it was too much. R: So it wasn't flash in the pan, it was just overreaching? K: Overkill, if I can make that pun? [overlapping] A little bit, please? R [overlapping]: You cannot. I've checked with our producer and - K: [grunts] R: - they're shaking their head. K: Alright, fair. [chuckling] There can be times that you just take the device you're using too far, and it jumps the shark a little bit and becomes ridiculous. R: In the case of something getting to the point of ridiculosity, are they even employing the tools that would work and just overdoing it, are they overutilizing the tools, leaning on them too heavily, abusing them, or are they in the wrong toolbox entirely? K: Exactly, yeah. R: No, I'm asking you. [laughing] K: Oh. [laughing] Um no I was going to say those are all things to consider. I think that's something you have to work with an editor on, and I think that's something that you have to have readers give you feedback about, because this for a lot of writers becomes a can't see the trees for the forest scenario. You're so deep into this, you're not reading this for the first time like most readers will be, you wrote this. Rekka you tell me, when you're rereading things that you wrote, either for fun or doing revisions, does your heart beat a little faster when you get to these scenarios? R: If it's been long enough that I forget where I'm going with them. [laughing] K: Exactly, yeah. R: Because you know what you're trying to build to, and when you're trying to write it sometimes you can feel like you're being sooo hamfisted about it. K: Yeah. Writers need help for contextualizing this, I think. Because first of all you know what's gonna happen, hopefully. [laughing] Second, you've been through it so many times it doesn't have the same punch, the same meaning that it did. R: That's one of the frustrating things about being a writer, trying to know whether you're being effective. You burn through beta readers because you need somebody who hasn't read it before to tell you whether it's working. K: Yeah so circling back to is it too much, are you leaning into it, are you in the wrong toolbox entirely, that can be a really hard thing for writers to understand. I've definitely read books where I've felt like after a few revision paths, every time the author was going through and trying to up the scare factor or the intensity factor in everything, I think that's something where you need an editor or a very good friend to help you there. R: [laughing] K: It's a balancing act. You have to maintain believability. There is a difficult-to-track issue of understanding when a situation is intense and when it's not tense enough or too intense. I've definitely read books where important things have happened, and I didn't realize that was an important thing because the writing and the way the characters were behaving didn't indicate to me that that was a significant event. And if you're going ‘oh well, what does that have to do with it?', that's building intensity. R: I recently gave someone feedback that said like ‘hey, I think this moment needs to slow down for a second, and I know there's a lot of other stuff going on, but like if you don't linger on this, it's not going to have the impact you want. K: You don't wanna have to be in a position where you gotta insert a character in the story jumping up and down screaming at the reader that something that's happening is important, but if you can't signal to them in some way that it is, that's not great. R: You have to figure out how to signal it without really putting a wavy-armed balloon man in front of it. K [laughing]: Yes. Exactly. It's difficult, and there's a reason that authors that can do this well are very successful in writing, you know, murder mysteries and spy thrillers and suspense novels and stuff. Because there're people that eat that up. That's like what they live for. I can take it or leave it. But then there are people who avoid it like the plague. R: Like you said, genre has a lot to do with it. We're getting to a point which I think is good where people are starting to put content notes on books just like you would get at the beginning of a TV show. So you know this has depictions of graphic violence, sexuality - um, there's a difference between sexuality and nudity - endangerment of a child, trauma, stuff like that. And that helps people dial in, like ‘do I wanna read this book, is this the kind of intensity I'm looking for or not?' K: Now, and that said, there may be things that happen in the book that it never would've occurred to you to put a content warning about. R: And hopefully maybe your beta readers can highlight a couple things too. K: What I'm getting at is there's going to be things that happen - in books, in movies, in TV shows - that are upsetting for a specific person for a specific reason. R: Mhm. K: There's no way to predict all of these - R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: And try to compensate and notify for that. It sounds terrible to say stick to the obvious and take in the advice of others, but that is what I would say. And I'm not saying don't write these things. Be aware of what you're writing. R: Be aware of what you're writing and then be willing to take the responsibility for the people who are going to be upset by that and say like ‘yes, this is something I felt was necessary to the plot, but I promise you I gave it thought and hopefully the people who'd be extra upset by it will be warned by friends or somebody before they pick it up.' K: For anyone who's sitting at home going - and to be honest I don't think many of our listeners think this, but maybe who knows - ‘why do I have to bend over backwards to accommodate this?' You know what, honestly, you don't. R: It's a choice you make, yeah. [chuckles] K: But it's really shitty not to when it's so easy to do. And believe me, people who suffer from particular anxieties or trauma and everything, they're ultra-aware of this stuff. They're typically not going to go into a store, pick up a random book, and say ‘I'll just read this now' because, exactly for that reason: they don't wanna put themselves in a position where the intensity of the book is going to induce an anxiety spiral. And if you think that doesn't happen, I don't know what to tell you at this point because you're wrong. [laughing] So! R: And it's also not necessarily the intensity of the book, but the specific situations and the intensity of that person's personal experience laid over top of that. K: Yeah. Exactly. So, for readers who are saying “how do I keep myself safe from this kind of thing” so to speak, read content warnings. Read reviews online. Here's a thing: read the bad reviews, read the people who didn't like the book, because the ones who are complaining about things are gonna give you a little bit more insight probably, into areas that you might find distressing. R: And you can always just post a question on Twitter, like “hey - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: “ - here's something that really bothers me in books; I'm thinking of picking up this one, anything you wanna warn me about, I'd appreciate.” K [overlapping]: Yeah. You know, I'm not saying this to put all of the onus upon the reader who's concerned about this, but, I mean do your research. If you know this is something that's important to you and something you need to manage and minimize as best you can, the best judge of character for that's gonna be you. R: For the writer, you know, sensitivity reads are not a bad idea. Like we said, we can't cover everything with a single sensitivity reader but they might be able to give you more insight. If your intensity of your plot is overlaid with a certain kind of life experience, I guarantee you can find a sensitivity reader for it. And if you don't, ask around and someone else will be able to help you. K: Yeah but I mean beyond that, content warnings do a lot. R: You can't cover everything and everyone, like - K [overlapping]: No. R: - Kaelyn was saying, you can give it a fair attempt. K: Listen, if your fair attempt is something along the lines of ‘contains violence, gore, and depictions of furries,' like, that's that's giving everyone at least a heads-up of what's in here. R: And a Venn diagram of figuring out where they fall in that. [chuckles] K: I will defend the writers a little bit here in saying that there's only so much you can do, to a certain point. [laughing] R: In order to indicate everything that happens in your book, you literally have already done that, you've written the book. You can be broad and you can welcome people to send you a note and ask you if they have a specific concern they're afraid of running into. K: I would call it a good faith gesture to do that. And, I think if there's parts in there where you're going ‘I wonder if I should explain this,' the answer is, maybe decide what it is and then just mention that that's a thing that's gonna happen in there. R: Okay, so this is managing the readers' stress literally, and kind of the external forces as we said we weren't going to cover. K: Well I mean I was joking about just like daily life stress. [laughing] R: Right, but I mean this is kind of tied to their personal experience. So, going back to considering it now a positive to build stress and anxiety, what would you say to an author who brought you their story, and it reads as a little flat. What would you tell them, how to increase anxiety in the reader, by which I mean tension in the story? K: I'm gonna flip that and ask has that ever happened to you? I know the answer to that is no because I read your writing [laughing], so! R: You know, I am really surprised by how many people have told me that my books are really tense. K: Yeah my blood pressure's definitely spiked a few times over the course of events. [laughing] R: Is it just because of Hankirk? Like is it just because he's infuriating? K: It's a lot of things, um - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: And actually you've touched on something that I think is very interesting that you do in your writing - and this is another kind of tension that I think we don't really appreciate as a different kind of tension to build - is hopelessness. And despair. R: Aw, now I'm mad. I didn't mean to be hopeless! K: No, you weren't, but this sense of like ‘what are we going to do?' R: Mm. K: And things just like um, a sense of despair and despondency, and I'm not necessarily talking about - R [overlapping]: Look, my characters have to come back from like their lowest low, like I'm gonna make that low real fuckin' low. [laughing] K: Yeah, exactly, but that's a kind of intensity too. So yeah, you definitely do not suffer from not having well-built intensity. R: You're avoiding my question. You turned it back around on me, as though we needed to analyze me, but we've just clarified we don't need to analyze me - K [overlapping]: No, no. R: What do you say to an author who is not me, who needs a little dose of, I guess some me-ness? K: I'm very much into helping writers solve their own problems. R: Yeah you do that. K: Yeah. I find that authors frequently know there's a problem and at least have the inkling of an idea of how to fix it. I would write them back and ask them, first do you have an outline of your story? If you don't, well, depending on our timeline here, write one; if we don't have time for that, I want you to highlight for me what you think the most important points of the story are for the plot. And depending on what was going on, I might tell them I'm gonna do the same. And let's see if we match up. I like to do that one a lot. R: Yeah you do. K: I want them to highlight the most important parts of the plot, and then I'd want them to pull out some areas where maybe it's more introductory, more worldbuilding, more establishing, and compare how those are written versus the important plot points. And look at your language, look at the way you're communicating with this, because this is - and I won't go too far into the weeds on this because it's slightly off topic, but it is worth mentioning - your language changes when writing intense situations.  K: The way you describe things, the way characters communicate with each other, the way they take in their scenery, a lot of times you'll notice writers that do this well have short-clipped sentences that match the franticness of the situation. Minimal description, because they don't have time to stop and look and describe something. So I would say that you know look at this and if these very important points of the story, these parts where it should be intense where the reader should be concerned and involved and engaged, and you're writing it with the same tone and cadence that you do with the part where they're walking through a meadow - R [chuckles]: The meadow is full of velociraptors. K: Ugh. You're describing heaven. R [muffled]: Stay out of the long grass! K [laughing]: I'm just picturing them with flower crowns now. R: Ohhh, they're so happy. K: [laughing] R: Beautiful queens!  K: [with accent] “Don't go into the long grass!”  R: We really just need to admit that this is a Jurassic Park fancast. K: Yeah we do talk about it a lot. So, I would say that that's a good place to start. And in terms of like exercises you can do, read it out loud. Act it out! I stood in a room with a manuscript and like held in front of me and like done both parts of the characters and imitated how they would be yelling at each other or what have you, just to make sure that like it sounds okay and it's coming across the right way. Because if I'm doing this by like kinda like staging a play here,  then hopefully you're getting that across to the reader. I think also developing your characters and having a good idea of how they would react in intense situations. If they're acting the same across the book no matter what, well, I don't know, maybe they've got a really good valium prescription. R: [laughing] K: You should see changes in not just their actions but their body language, their speech. If Rekka and I were trying to diffuse a bomb right now, I wouldn't be telling “okay, so um cut the green wire, um,” okay and then like imitating the scene from Jurassic Park where John Hammond's giving Ellie instructions over the radio and he's like talking so calm and everything - but that's a good example because even though he's talking very calm and walking her through everything, his voice is very intense. R: And he's having an argument behind the scenes. [laughing] K [overlapping]: Yes. He's having an argument with Ian, but like his voice is very intense. And now granted, movies get to use music to help with this kind of thing. R: Yeah they cheat. K: Yeah but if I were having a conversation with Rekka and it was a genuinely tense situation where I'm trying to give her instructions on how to diffuse a bomb - now granted– Okay so we're getting a little sidetracked here but I just wanna point out Rekka says he's having a funny argument with Ian, part of the reason for that was the shock value of the next scene. R: Right. K: You're luring the reader into a false sense of security of going like, oh look it's fine, John and Ian are arguing, Ellie's got this, and I think - “Mr. Hammond I think we're back in business!” And then an arm falls on her. Oh no, wait first the raptor attacks her, then the arm falls on her. That's a good instance of diffusing a situation only to re-intensify it immediately. If I were talking to Rekka and I was talking even in the same tone that like we talk in this podcast, like ‘well you know I guess if you wanted, like, so think about the green wire, think about why the green wire is important to this bomb. And if you take the green wire out what's going to happen?' Like that, you know, that's not a good way to write that scene. R: Yeah ‘cause meanwhile Mr. Arnold's arm has fallen on my shoulder and I am flipping out. [chuckles] K: I always wondered why the velociraptor didn't eat that, or how that happened. Like - R: I assume it like got bit off and then went flying and got caught in that little corner - K: I guess, but like it seems - R: Look, they needed it to fall on Ellie's shoulder. K: I know, but like it seems like it was in like wires, and it's like how did that get there? Did the raptor go back and - R [overlapping]: This is, this is going back to the believability of the situation and is it going to suck your reader out of the moment and go, ‘wait, how?' K: I remember being 10 years old and watching that and going, ‘how did that get there?' R: I also had that thought but I didn't linger on it, because - K [overlapping]: Ah, no. R: Ellie was being chased by a raptor, dragging a big flashlight, and I was worried like the flashlight was gonna get stuck on something and she wouldn't be able to keep going. K: But yeah it's, that would be kind of where I would start. And if the problems are still persisting, if we still can't get to a place where I feel like okay I understand that something important is happening, I understand that there's peril here, I understand that these two characters have left very angry at each other, that sort of thing, then that's a different conversation. That's a conversation about writing style and technique. And, that's harder to fix. R: You can't just add six more raptors and fix it. K: Six more raptors fixes everything, Rekka. R: Okay. Back up. You can just add - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - six more raptors; there's your fix for everything. K: Yes. R: But you do have to exercise it with extreme care. K: More raptors! R: - because people will pick up if you just do it every time. K: Yeah. If your solution to everything is add more raptors - R: Get your own solution - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - my solution to everything is add more raptors. K: Yeah that's, that's fine. R: Yeah, I thought so. K: It solves multiple problems, not just intensity of the situation problems, so. R: Mhm! K [chuckles]: I think that's it. If it's something you're struggling with, I hate to say this, but like this is something you just kinda have to work on. It's one of those style and technique things that, I won't say can't be taught because absolutely you can take writing classes that would help you with this, but I think it's something that also just comes from practice and learning. R: And I would suggest doing it with short fiction, because that's a really great way to learn how to control the pedal. K: Absolutely. R: To adjust your pressure on your reader. And also to build it quickly, because in a short story you don't have a lot of room, so it's a boiled-down condensed version. And also being shorter you get more practice, ‘cause you get to write more of them. K: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's my final thoughts on managing intensity in books is: it's not easy. There's a reason people who do it well make a lot of money off of it. R: It's not like if you aren't making a ton of money off of it that you're no good at it. To that point, pick up a book and see how someone else is doing it. K: One of the best ways to get good at writing is reading a lot. R: Yep. And steal everyone else's tricks. Except mine; the raptors are mine. K: Only Rekka's raptors. Ahh, that's what we need, a book series called Rekka's Raptors! R: Vick's Vultures but - K: I know. R: But it's dinosaurs. K: I'm already unfolding it in my head, trust me. R: Oh yeah. K: [laughing] R: Send me the outline. [giggles] K: See this is the problem is, I have all of these ideas of books that I would love to exist in the world and I need someone to write them for me. [laughing] R: That's what I said, send me an outline, I work really well off an outline! K: Yeah. So I think that's, that's the end of the episode. Hopefully it wasn't too much for you. R: Even if it's not the end of the episode, we're done. [laughing] K: Yeah. I think that - R [overlapping]: The raptors got us. We're in the long grass. K [laughing]: Does he say ‘the long grass' or ‘the elephant grass?' R: You know what? I recently read an article about how we all remember lines differently - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - because of the different aspects we're focused on. So let's just assume that anybody quoting Jurassic Park to the point where you get the quote, has said it right. K: Okay. That's fair. R: I think that's like a way to be kinder to other people. K: Tension! It's good. R: The right amount is good. The wrong amount is bad. K: Yes. I can't even say in moderation because sometimes it's not moderation that makes it a - R: Sometimes the whole point is not moderating it. Except moderating the effect that you want in terms of, ‘hey, I the author have control and am moderating how much I want,' there. That's - K: Yep. R: That's the moderation that we're talking about. [laughing] K: Exactly. R: We should stop. K: [laughing] R: This episode isn't going to have a nice end, it's just going to - K: Ooh, maybe it just cuts to black mid sentence. [laughing] R: Well that's not a great pressure valve on your tension. Yeah no, let us know how this episode needs to end. You can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, you can find us and all our old episodes at wmbcast.com. Please remember to subscribe, please remember especially to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and if you somehow just really wanna support my love of velociraptors, you can go to Patreon.com/wmbcast and send us some financial support, and I promise I will spend it on dinosaur plushies. K: Oh, I was gonna say velociraptor food. R: Well, I am the velociraptor food. K: Which now that I'm saying it I think is just goats, so. [laughing] R: No that's T. rexes, and it didn't work anyway. K: Yeah, they dropped the cow in the velociraptor. R: Yeah that's true - oh wait am I a velociraptor? Because I've been eating cow this week. K: You have, yeah. R: Hmm. K: Hmmmm. R: We'll have to investigate this in a future episode. K: Hey, because the mystery is building tension. R: Yeeeah, that's it. K [laughing]: Alright everyone, thanks very much for listening. R: For your indulgence. K: [laughing] R: Take care everyone!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: So it’s funny you picked this when I was still studying history, that was something we always had to consider. Is this group, is this person part of determining where they fit into historical context as determining do they have agency? Can they act on their own behalf? Structure is what keeps someone in place; agency is what allows them to act freely. Rekka: Where would you put Odysseus, in this context? K: I would make Odysseus a failed attempt at agency. R: [laughing] K: Well, maybe failed agency isn’t the right--because he is displaying agency. He’s trying to do something, and he’s having to frequently overcome obstacles. That said, those obstacles are things that keep happening to him, rather than him directly engaging. R: Right. K: So it’s a little bit of a, uh. R: Weird example. K: No it was a good one, I liked it. R: No it’s a good example but it’s not a good role model for agency in your novels. K: Odysseus isn’t a good role model for a lot of reasons. R [laughing]: That’s just one of them. K: [laughing] R: Be the person who ties yourself to the mast, rather than give in to the sirens. Actually fuck it, give in to the sirens. It’s 2021, let’s just go for it. K [laughing]: That’s a very bad--I feel like 2020 was the year to give into the sirens. [laughing] R: Yeah, but what is 2021 but 2020 persevering? K: No, we’re slowly defeating it. We’re claiming some agency for ourselves. R: I am still in this room. K: [laughing] R: I have always been in this room. How are we defeating anything? K: I think I was born in this room. R: Kaelyn, have you and I met for smoked meats in a restaurant? K: We haven’t. R: Right. So, nothing has changed. K: Yeah. R: Have we hung out in a library with random strangers at the same table? K: No. Some of whom are handwriting books. R: Yeah, no. This is not happening. So today I called you here to talk about agency. K: So in that scenario do I have agency? Because I made the decision to join you. But-- R: But--are you allowing this topic to happen? Or are you actively engaging in the expression of our ideas? K: Oh both. R: [laughing] K: Definitely. R: Once you get past some of the other, like, identify your theme, and helpful advice for writing like that-- K: Strengthen this character arc, you know, the really nice vague feedback. R: The really helpful, helpful specific feedback. You might also end up hearing that your character needs more agency in a scene, or in the story overall. And as with the others, this can be really helpful advice. If you know what it means. K: Yeah um, it I think falls into the category of frustratingly vague advice that is absolutely rooted in important context. R: But it’s also really true. K: Yes, yeah. R: Which is just the worst part. There’s nothing worse than vague advice that is also correct. K: It is vague advice, but I think when you’re dealing with things like ‘work on your character’s agency,’ ‘strengthen this arc,’ ‘identify the themes in your story,’ those are big picture things. So. Definition—as always love to start off with that—uh, agency in general, the definition is “an action or intervention, especially as to produce a particular event.” Acting, essentially. Taking action. Doing something. Trying to influence the outcome. R: Not just action but pro-action. K: Yes. For characters in books, agency is basically when a character can make choices and act on their own behalf. R: What is it about agency that gets turned into a secret agency that acts against aliens, or whatever--I’m just playing around with etymology here-- K: [laughing] R: But how’s that word get turned into that meaning? K: The way I always took that was that an agency is meant to act on behalf of a group of people or towards a certain end. So, if we wanna take S.H.I.E.L.D. - R: Okay. K: So agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Their job, their directive, is to protect Earth from large-scale global threats. Everything they do, every action they take, is to further that outcome. Real world example: the CIA, Counter-Intelligence Agency. They have a very specific job. It’s to try and out-maneuver, out-intelligence if you will, foreign and domestic hostile powers. R: Okay so the word is not trans-mutated in any way, in the way that it’s applied to an organization. It still means taking proactive action toward a goal. K: Yeah, so I did look up the definition of agency in that regard: “a business or organization established to provide a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties.” R: So like, a literary agent. K: There you go. Here’s a good example, the Environmental Protection Agency. R: Mhm. K: Their directive, their job is to protect the environment. What do they do? They organize, they create scenarios, be they either laws or policies or transactions even, that further their goal of protecting the environment. R: This is a group of people that are acting for one goal. In our writing, when we talk about agency, we’re generally referring to character agency. As in we have a main character, they are serving as our POV - point of view - and think of that term as the window through which you experience the story. Your viewpoint into this story and this world. So, everything that this character chooses to do is how you experience the story. So by acting on a desire, they create tension as to whether there will be an obstacle that they can overcome, whether they make a decision to do something that frightens them a lot, or whatever - you get to experience that tension. So if this character goes with the flow - K: [laughing] R: - how much tension do you get to experience? K: Yeah so what this means when you get this feedback, ‘I need you to work on your character’s agency here,’ is that it means the character is being very passive. They’re being more reactive than proactive. Oh I’ve got a good example: Twilight. R: Bella is a classic example and often referenced example of a character who doesn’t actually do much. And this is part of that Mary Sue criticism that gets used in the wrong places a lot, but in this case what we’re talking about is Bella is a bodysuit for you to crawl into, and see this world. K: Well Bella is almost worse than that. In some cases Bella is an object. She is sort of a MacGuffin that furthers this story. Something I always like to trot out is, if this character weren’t here, would things go that differently? R: [laughing] K: Now, in Twilight yes they would. Because a lot of conflict, a lot of the story, whatever, does center around Bella, but it is more just the fact that she exists than anything else. If she were a particularly tasty cow that all of the vampires also wanted to eat, well - that’d be a different story too. [laughing] R: Yeah, that’s a weird one. K: No, but if she were something like a magic ring that lets the vampires turn back into humans or something, you could possibly just sub her in with a magic ring. And a lot of those story elements could still happen. R: So is your character interchangeable with an inanimate object? K [laughing]: My favorite one, ever, that I promise I’ll stop on this side note - Indiana Jones. R: Mhm. K: - is completely irrelevant to the first movie. If he weren’t there, everything would go exactly the same way. That said, Indiana Jones has agency. R: He is trying. K: He’s trying. He’s not doing the best job, but he’s trying. Um so, you can have a character that maybe if they weren’t there things would progress as normal. My whole point is Indiana Jones, regardless of whether or not he not only shows up, exists, the storyline with Marion and getting the Ark of the Covenant, we still end up with the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant on a remote island. R: Just turns out it was a bad idea. [chuckles] K [laughing]: Just turns out you shouldn’t go poking around in these things. R: Yes. And that had more to do with Belloq being his agency to, as he put it, take whatever Indiana Jones had, and possess it himself. K [overlapping]: Yes. R: And then him not being able to resist looking in the Arc. Now, had the Arc made it to Hitler, would Hitler have known how to use it? I mean, he studied all this stuff. It’s very possible that he might’ve put it to more diabolical use, rather than just frying himself as Belloq did. K [overlapping]: Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, in Twilight, the character that has agency there is not Bella, it’s Edward. R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: He’s the one who’s making all the decisions, he’s the one who’s making the choices. He chose to stay and pursue Bella. He chose to let her know that he was a vampire. He chose to eventually make her a vampire. R: Mhm. K: Bella is a thing that all of this is happening to. R: The prize to be won. K: Yeah. Bella’s a very passive character, and there’s points in the story where she does make decisions, but the choices then are even things that are forced upon her. R: Here’s an example of not, apparently, including much agency in your character, and still having an incredibly successful book series. K: And movies. R: So as with all advice- K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - feel free to break the rules and have a smashing success and good on you. K: There is an exception to every rule to be sure. But, as you kinda said right at the get-go, one of the biggest criticisms of Bella is that she is an empty skin suit for the reader to crawl into and make themselves feel as though they are the star of the story. People who have agency don’t feel like that. It’s part of character development. If Bella were making a lot of choices and decisions and stuff, you’d have readers going “Well that’s not what I’d do, why would she do that, that’s so ridiculous.” And then you distance yourself from that character because you’re establishing them as a fully realized person. R: Right. K: Rather than the empty skin suit slash object. R: Right. Now, Big Lebowski. K [laughing]: Oh God, that’s a good one, okay! Um, God I haven’t watched that movie in forever, I love that movie. R: So he starts out, he gets up, he goes to the grocery store, he gets the ingredients for his White Russian, he drinks half of it there, he goes home. K: “Where is the money Lebowski?” [laughing] R: This has happened to him so far. Somebody mistakes him because he shares a surname with a very rich person, and they walk into this very shabby home and somehow think that they’ve found the right place. Now he isn’t gonna do anything about it. K: Yeah. R: He goes on with his life. He just is kind of sad about it, but his friends convince him - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - that he needs to do something about it. K: Except the guy pees on the carpet. And that carpet really tied the room together. R: It really tied the room together! But he is not going to act until he’s convinced by his friends to act. K: This is another thing with agency. It’s okay for characters to be sort of passive and have things happen to them. That’s what starts the story- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: - going. You don’t, don’t get me wrong. There’s plenty of stories out there with someone going “I woke up this morning and decided to do this thing.” R: Mhm. K: Or they start out with a quest, or they come up with something on their own. [overlapping] R [overlapping]: You’re in media res, so you’ve already gotten to the point where they want something. K: Yeah. But typically even if we pick up within that point something had to happen to them a lot of times beforehand, for them to want to go get the magic ring that lets you turn back into a human. R: Yeah and often you find that the character starts off trying to do a thing that isn’t the thing they decide they need to do in the end. I mean that’s kind of part of the whole character arc, is deciding what it is they really want. The Dude really wants a nice comfy life with his White Russians - K: And his bathrobe. [laughing] R: And the rug that ties the room together. K: Yeah. R: So it bothers him enough to complain about it, but not enough to act on it. Then he is cajoled into acting upon it. And he goes and finds himself embroiled in a large plot, where things kind of continue to happen to him. K: With movies you can watch a series of strange events unfold, because there’s the visual component that - often these are comedies. It’s almost slapstick. We’re just watching this person who all he wants is to go bowling with his buddies, sit in his bathrobe, and drink White Russians. And he ends up getting pulled into this bizarre situation. R: Being sent to have a physical ‘cause turns out he’s gonna father a child, and also toes get cut off - K: You want a toe? I’ll get you a toe next week. [laughing] Lebowski is a rather passive character. He doesn’t have a ton of agency. That said, once he gets involved in this he does make decisions even if they’re just ‘I want to get out of this alive.’ R: Yes. And he observes clues and he starts to put things together that probably they expected him not to do. They really thought that he would just kinda take the fall for things, or just go along, get paid, go home, and return to his life. K: Yeah. By the time he gets to the end of the story, his motivation is something between ‘I need to figure this out’ and ‘I’m not letting this random guy who got me tied into all of this get away with it.’ Does the Dude have agency? Sometimes, a little bit, if he can get the energy and motivation together to feel like it, which is by the way very in line with his character. R: Yeah. K: It is very typical with books to start out with characters just living their life. People by nature are passive. But you ever notice that when someone says “I’ve decided to do this thing,” it’s usually an announcement. It’s usually like “I’ve decided to change jobs.” “I’ve decided to buy a house.” “I’ve decided to ask this person to marry me.” It’s a decision you make to take action. Whereas most of our lives are just kind of us living our life, yeah after I’m done here I’m gonna have some soup I made, I’m very excited about that. I’m deciding to have soup. Is that agency? I don’t think so. You know in your day-to-day lives, agency are things that you’re trying to act for your benefit. I’ve decided to buy this house, because I worked very hard and I think this is a good investment and I think I’ll be happy and comfortable here, and this will improve my life a measurable amount that I want it to. R: Mhm. K: When characters act with agency, you know a lot of times they’re in situations that are not normal day-to-day things. There aren’t a lot of books out there about someone’s decision to work really hard, save money, and buy a house. R: Well that’s the first 25% of a book, that 25%, that storyline is gonna go away, or be severely altered. K: That house is haunted as hell. [laughing] R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: For a character to have agency, they have to do three things. They have to be able to act in their environment, which means that if you said a character, let’s say a human being, and you put them on an alien planet where literally everything is made of gas, that character’s not gonna have any agency because they can’t do anything. R: Right. K: But not only is everything made of gas, but the lifeforms that live there physically cannot communicate with the human, or have no interest in doing so. R: Right. K: So that person can’t interact with their environment; they’re not gonna have any agency, they have to just sit there and wait for something to happen. R: Unless the plot of that story is ‘how do I get to the point where I can talk to these aliens?’ There have been many Star Trek episodes like this, where you can’t communicate with the other aliens and the plot is ‘how do we find common ground?’ So, the decision to do so is agency, but the human who says “Well, all these molecules are just too far apart, I guess I’ll just sit here.” K: [laughing] R: That character has no agency. K: So the second thing is a character has to be able to make meaningful decisions. So, in the case of our character sitting on the gas planet, they’ve gotta make the decision of ‘I’m gonna find a way to gather all of this gas and condense it into something solid that I can use to my benefit.’ R: Right. K: They have to have a way to work towards their own benefit. Even if it’s not working towards their own benefit they have to be presented with situations in which they can make a decision. Even if it’s ‘the army’s invading, there’s two sides of this city, we’re only gonna be able to fend them off from one, we have to evacuate the other.’ The character making the decision of ‘okay, we’re gonna evacuate the east end, move everybody into the west end, and here are the reasons that we’re doing this and that’s why it’ll give us a better advantage.’ That’s displaying agency. The third thing is the character’s ability to affect the story. And this is different from making decisions. This is where Indiana Jones fails. R: Right, right. K: Because he doesn’t actually affect the story really. Sure, he’s got some wacky hijinks, he shoots a guy who just wanted to have a nice sword fight - R: Cracks a whip. K: Cracks a whip, somehow hitches a ride on a submarine, you know, things happen. R: If it wasn’t for Sallah he wouldn’t have even made it halfway through the movie. K: Exactly. Is he entertaining? Absolutely. It’s a delight. But he doesn’t do anything that changes the outcome of what’s happening. So, this is different than making a decision. Because a character needs to have an impact on the story. If you erase them from the story and nothing changes, that’s not a good character. R: You have some characters who maybe aren’t the decision makers, but if they’re the person with the special skill, or you know they’re the person with the strength or the fortitude to go ahead with the story that the other character doesn’t have, and you end up with a nice balanced team-up of brains and brawn. Obviously if you take the brawn out of that story, it is going to affect the story. Now, take Indiana Jones out, and you definitely have a very different movie. K: Absolutely, yes. R: Sometimes the character is required for the tone. K: Like a swashbuckling adventurer. R: Think of Jack Burton in Big Trouble in Little China. K: Okay. R: He’s not actually the hero of the movie. At one point a big fight scene starts, and he shoots his gun in the air and ends up knocking himself out when the ceiling falls on him. And for the greater portion of this fight scene he is prone on the ground. He’s almost like the story’s style, but he’s not the story’s main active character. K: Yeah. R: You know there’s parts where yes, they need him because he’s tough and he can fight, but so can the other characters. There’s a lot of characters doing a lot of stuff in that movie, and Jack Burton - you would notice, if you saw it and they removed him and then you watched it again, you would definitely notice his absence. But does his absence change the story? Would his friend have not gone to rescue his girlfriend? He definitely would have. And he definitely would’ve done it without Jack, but he talked Jack into helping. It’s interesting how many stories we enjoy end up with characters who draw a lot of attention to themselves, like Indiana Jones, like Jack Burton, without actually making a huge difference in the plot of the film. Or, I’m saying film ‘cause we like to use movies as shortcuts. But um - K: [laughing] R: How does this work in a book? Let’s go back to our favorite, Gideon the Ninth. Gideon kinda doesn’t have a clue what’s going on! K: Gideon is a little bit of a passive character. R: Yeah! But it’s delightful [laughing], just like Indiana Jones and Jack Burton. K: She gets dragged along on this adventure, which we find out is basically one giant series of death traps. She doesn’t know why she’s there. She’s there to serve as a lens of the story for the reader, because the other main character that we’re introduced to here is of course Harrowhark. R: Harrowhark has a lot of agency, and it’s all off the page. K: Because Harrowhark can’t be bothered to tell anybody about it. And, if she did, if she was the point-of-view character in that first book, we would have no idea what was happening. We need all of this to be told to us through the lens of Gideon, who is more like us than, like, Harrowhark. R: Yeah. Right. K: Of course by the end of the book you know this changes; we’ve learned some things, we’ve solved some mysteries. But Gideon is sort of a passive observer. Yes, she’s poking around, she’s talking to people, she’s gathering information, but really she can’t do anything with it until Harrow tells her what’s going on. R: And she’s only there because Harrow has made her promise to go along on this venture and then she’ll get the thing she wanted in the beginning, which she was pretty close to succeeding except Harrow was the obstacle. So Harrow said, “Do this thing with me, and then I’ll give you what you want.” And so Gideon goes along specifically for that purpose, and how much more passive can you be than just being like ‘if I just tap my foot throughout this book, I’ll get to the thing I want.’ K: Yeah. She literally just wants me to sit in a room and do nothing. R: Harrowhark has even said “do not speak to anyone.” K: Yeah. Don’t talk to anyone, don’t do anything, stay in this room, be here when I get back. R: So of course, the plot happens because Gideon’s like uhh you don’t tell me what to do. K [laughing]: Yeah it’s not agency so much as annoyance. R: Two people who can’t stand each other so why would one do what the other one wants. K: Yeah. Exactly. R: That is kind of the plot of Gideon the Ninth, but in the most delightful way that I just made sound as flat as possible. K: You’re right, because Gideon serves the purpose of one: as I said providing the reader with context and perspective, but two: also, she’s awesome! R: Yeah. K: And we like watching her swing this giant sword around, and be muscle-y - R [overlapping]: Yeah, flex for the other people in the book. K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: And also like look at people and go “There’s something wrong with you” [laughing], you know? K: Yes. Yes. Um, be the perspective of ‘This is all really weird, how am I the only person who sees that this is all really weird?’ R: Mhm. K: So. Um, yeah, so that’s a good example of characters who are passive but are compelling. So if you’re thinking to yourself ‘well, if that’s a thing that’s allowed, why do I need to strengthen my character’s agency?’ Because it depends on the story you’re telling. And it depends on what you’re trying to do here. If you have a character who is supposed to be your main character, your protagonist, they’re supposed to be leading the charge, and what they’re doing is they’re tripping from event to happening back to other event, just sort of letting stuff happen to them rather than doing things themselves, that can get really boring to read.  K: The second and third book in the Ember in the Ashes series, there’s a character in there named Helene. And - I won’t ruin too much for anybody who hasn’t read these, and full disclosure I’m still finishing the fourth one - in the second and third books especially, Helene is running around putting out fires. She is desperately trying to manage an unmanageable situation. At the same time though, she’s trying to figure out ‘how do I solve this bigger problem that I’m trying to face? How do I mitigate these circumstances?’ I was so excited whenever it was one of her chapters, because that was the thing that I thought was most interesting, was watching her just get things heaped on her. Every time she turns around something else bad is happening, that is just one more thing she’s gotta deal with. So was she displaying agency? In the second book I would say not as much, by the third book we’re certainly getting there. But, it’s still compelling because the way she is acting on her own behalf is not necessarily for herself maybe, but for other people. R: Okay. K: Watching someone deal with and try to mitigate overwhelming circumstances, I would say, is a form of agency. Even if they are just running around putting out fires. R: Trying to survive - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - this moment, as opposed to having a plan for the next two weeks to six months - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - toppling the empire, etc. It’s okay if they’re just trying to get back to normal. K: Yes. Or, just trying in the case of Helene, just trying to make sure her family’s safe. Let’s start there. That’s small step number one, I’ve gotta work on that. Okay small step number two, now I’ve got a deal with the residents of this city. Now I’ve gotta figure out how I’m gonna deal with this other maniac, and there’s all of these forces and factors that she can’t really do much about. But she can make decisions. R: Right, so in an earthquake, a character obviously isn’t going to defeat the earthquake. K: I defeated an earthquake last week, Rekka, I don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughing] R: Okay. In a typhoon, Kaelyn’s not gonna go punch a typhoon. K: No no, earthquakes are far more punchable than typhoons. R: Right. So you can trust that Kaelyn’s gonna go check on friends and family, uh, Kaelyn’s going to act in ways that clearly are important and have great meaning to her personally, even if they’re not going to fix the fact that there’s a typhoon, or the fact that you know FEMA’s gonna have to come in and that sort of thing. So what about characters with examples of great agency? Like the Quest plot. Is that agency or is that ‘this wizard told me I need to go do this thing’? K: Well okay so I will, we can talk about the Quest plot and then I’ll give you what I think is a good example of someone who has agency and, I’m going to put them into the same story, which I know we’ve been talking about this series a lot, Shadow and Bone and the Six of Crows. For those who haven’t read or watched it, hopefully you know that one is a trilogy, the other is a duology, they’re separate storylines but the Netflix series collapsed them both into one. R: So go read the books anyway, because Netflix made some choices. K: So the first trilogy Shadow and Bone, Alina Starkov is a very, a little bit of, especially for the first book, a passive character. You know she discovers she has this power, and she is tasked with solving this big problem because she has this power. She does start to display agency in the story but if things had just progressed along that sort of Quest storyline - you could argue that it even does a little bit because ultimately there is a problem that she is the only one that can solve. R: Mhm. K: So, is that agency? Well, the way she goes about handling it in the story, breaking away from the wizard character and trying to decide to do this her own way is certainly displaying agency. R: Right. K: Conversely, in the Six of Crows, we have the character Kaz, who is sort of your underworld rogue-type but not in a charming way. I would actually say he’s quite the opposite of charming. He’s very stoic, very serious, very no-nonsense. But Kaz makes a lot of decisions to try to accomplish goals and to better the lives of him and his friends. There’s some revenge scenarios here, but in the revenge scenarios it’s reclaiming things that were taken from him. R: Right. K: There’s friends to liberate, there’s people to try to help and better their lives, there’s people they encounter along the way that get into bad situations. He is a character with a lot of strong agency. Even before we meet him, we can see everything he’s done, everything he’s worked towards to build himself up to a point where one day he can maybe do this one thing he’s trying to get to. I would say he’s a great example of somebody with a lot of agency. R: Right from the start. K: Yeah. R: So he’s got a plan, and this plan is the focus of the story. K: Yes. Of course, wrenches get thrown into it, because - R: Just in terms of Luke Skywalker just wants to escape the farm life, that’s his desire at the start. But what he ends -- I mean he does get that, but it turns into a much bigger story. K: Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games. Does she have agency? She is mostly reactive. She only volunteers because her sister got picked as tribute. R: But she’s volunteering to protect her family, which you might say is proactive decision. K: At the same time though, if Katniss had not volunteered, would any of the subsequent events in the story have happened? No. Her decisions are impacting the story. That said, she is very manipulated a lot through this entire story. R [overlapping]: Oh yeah. And I think that’s just the way that as a character, we express that just ‘cause you’re a hero doesn’t mean you can’t be fooled, you can’t be misguided, you can’t be manipulated as you said. I thought that was incredibly different from anything I’d read of an adventurer-hero story, because you realize a hero doesn’t always make the right decisions. K: Yeah. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that book series as we’ve discussed in this - R: I’m not saying I’m happy with the way it ended, but that definitely opened my eyes, and I think influenced me. As a result, my characters definitely made decisions that they thought were sound, or they thought were motivated correctly, or were the right thing to do or whatever, that end up making more of a mess. K: Yeah. Now that said, with Katniss one of the things I will say bothered me a lot in this, and this is I think a product of trying to shoehorn motivations into areas where it doesn’t already exist, Katniss is -- there’s a scene, it’s much more pronounced in the movie but it is in the book -- where they’re at District 13. And they’re all sitting in this bunker and it’s ‘let’s talk about a time Katniss has inspired you, she’s this symbol. She is the Mockingjay.’ I don’t know if this was on purpose, I don’t know if this was the intent, but I couldn’t come up with a better way to just be like this character is almost inconsequential to what they’re doing. They just need her to stand heroically in front of people. I really think that a 16-17 year old girl was probably not the sole motivation for overthrowing an entire super-oppressive government, but. [laughing] R: Again, I am not going to jump in front of a train for this book series - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: But I could see the development of a character who stands up to the government on TV that the government requires everybody to watch. K: Yes. R: Like this is a program that the government is putting in front of people’s faces because they want people to know that people will pay for their past transgressions, until they deem that they’re done. And Katniss says, “No. It’s not gonna be one survivor, I’m not going to kill the person that I grew up with because I need to survive; we’re both going to survive” and that turns into a big moment- K [overlapping]: Yes, it did. R: Also she honors the person from the other district with whom she’s supposed to be competing, but they all see her treat Rue like a human being, which is not something that you get from this government. K: There’s these tiny acts of rebellion. But I would say that it’s all undone by the fact that she doesn’t actually want any part of this. She wants to go back to her life and be done. Now that’s, I would argue, not agency, because what she’s having to deal with is the fallout of decisions that she made for survival, rather than because she wanted to make a statement. R: No I understand that, but I’m saying again with the hero doesn’t always make the right decisions, also, person who makes a couple decisions where other people can see them suddenly find themself turned into this bigger than life character - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: I felt like that was part of the character arc, coming to terms with being this person everybody now expected her to be, and sometimes needed her to be, in order for them to go on. K: I found book Katniss a very grating character, I didn’t - R: You are not the only one, I have heard this plenty of times. K: I didn’t like her much but one thing I appreciated about her was how much she just wanted to be left alone. [laughing] R: Yeah! I mean, we can all relate to that. K [laughing]: We can all relate to that. It’s just like, I get it. I don’t really like you that much but I totally get it. She’s capable, as you said, she’s a fast thinker, but she’s not a leader. In fact in the second book they have a whole plot going on behind the scenes that she doesn’t know about until the very end, because everybody looked at her and went ‘I don’t think she’s gonna be helpful here.’ [laughing] R: Yeah. K: We would be better off just doing this on our own. R: Yeah. K: And I really appreciate the writer’s acknowledgment of that. [laughing] But again, in the second book she is reverted back to a very passive role, this stuff is just happening to her. Even more so than in the first one. R: And then it continues in the third book, where they take her on this SWAT team adventure, and she’s just like ‘what the fuck’s going on?’ K: Yeah ‘cause they’re gonna go shoot all of this war footage of her. But then, she does make the decision ‘I’m going with this because I wanna get us into the Capitol, so that I can go kill the president.’ R: Right, right. K: So there we do have Katniss with agency, with a plan. R: Mhm. K: How important do you think plans are to characters having agency? R: This is a really good question. We’ve just described a lot of main characters who don’t really have a plan. K: No, no. R: And who are all highly successful IPs. Sometimes I think figuring out the plan can be the character’s arc. They know they want something. They try and fail and try and fail, and it’s because they don’t know how to go about it, or there’s something that they need to let go of or gain in order to figure out the best way. You know like a heist movie. K: I swear I was just thinking of a heist movie. [laughing] R: The plan is happening all along. K: Yeah. R: And it’s the reader watching it, and being misled about things going wrong that it turns out were part of the plan anyway because there’s always that aspect of the heist that you don’t hear about ‘til the end, and you get to watch it again and go ‘Oh now I see!’ K: ‘Yeah that guy was in the background the whole time.’ R: Yeah so obviously in that case the plan is not the plot. The reveal is the plot. The red herrings are the adventure, I don’t know. Sometimes a character figuring out what they want is the plot. K: Mhm. R: The idea I think is that the character starts with a sense of the way things are right now are not good. K: I think there’s a lot of this in anime. I’m thinking of Inuyasha right now, did you watch that? R: No. You’re gonna have to talk Sailor Moon if you’re gonna keep me on your level. K: Okay, let’s talk Sailor Moon. Let’s talk the original anime run, where they really fleshed out a lot of the episodes, and remember at one point they’re trying to track down the seven rainbow crystals. You know Sailor Moon becomes Sailor Moon not by choice, she just is. R [overlapping]: Yup. K: And she’s got a talking cat that tells her to fight demons. R: And yells at her for not doing her homework. K: And at the same time, she’s not only gotta find these other sailor scouts, and identify them and get them to accept their fates and roles but because this is anime everyone’s like ‘Ah yes! This is what I was meant for the whole time!’ In the first season of the anime they’re tracking down these seven rainbow crystals. So they don’t necessarily know why they’re tracking them, and at one point Tuxedo Mask has one and they’re like that’s fine, he can just hang on to it. R: [laughing] K: They’re just like well we don’t want the bad guys to get these. We don’t know why. But then we find out, oh no wait, it turns out we actually need all of them. R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: Why? Well we’re not sure yet. Okay now we know why we need all of them. And, oh crap, there’s the princess! And why do we need the princess? Because the princess can wield this power that’s going to defeat Queen Beryl. The agency there I think is - well first of all accepting and embracing ‘hey this is something I have to do.’ But also then incremental goals. And sometimes your plan changes. Sometimes it turns out that Sailor Venus is not the princess. R [overlapping]: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. K: It’s actually Sailor Moon. [laughing] R: Yeah, well, certainly couldn’t be her. Look at her. K: No, no, I mean she looks nothing like that other princess that she looked exactly like. [laughing] R: With the same hairstyle and everything. K [laughing]: Yes. R: The importance of grace in a person’s identity is apparently paramount. But yeah, the idea of a plan changing with new information I think is overlooked, because we like our stories in small parcels. K: Yes. R: But something like, for example a manga that’s gonna go on in theory indefinitely - K: [coughing]Naruto.[/coughing] Sorry. R: You’re going to have to introduce new information that’s going to change the course of the plot, and make the characters do something that maybe they wouldn’t have done before, or something they hadn’t considered, or just go off in a different direction because they need a new costume. K: And by the way this is why a lot of not just manga, but comic book series and even ongoing long-running television shows, have story arcs. R: Yeah. K: Manga especially you will see broken out into the such-and-such arc. R: Mhm. K: The this arc, they actually title them and they’re considered collections. R: Yeah. The introduction of new information can help pivot the story in a way that, like the characters might not have made that decision based on the way that they were starting out or proceeding at any given point in it. Having a plan is good, but maybe it doesn’t matter what it is. [laughing] K: But I think having a plan is a baseline that gives characters agency because they can make decisions to try to achieve the end results of that plan. R: Trying to stay on the track. K: Yeah. Again I’ll refer to the character of Kaz in Six of Crows. What’s so compelling about his character is he is a planner. He’s one of those guys who’s thinking of every possible contingency. He’s trying to stay two steps ahead of rivals and archnemesises - nemesii - R: Nemeses. K [overlapping]: Nemeses. I like nemesii. And that’s why we see him act so clearly with so much agency because then on top of that, we also learn that he is a person who’s very knowledgeable and very in control of things. You need a guy who can do this? He knows the guy who can do that who owes him a favor. He runs a casino, so all he’s doing is collecting information and favors and stuff to be traded in later. R: Okay. What about competence porn? K: Competency porn in general - if you’re not getting it from just saying, this is: somebody who’s always on top of things and always two steps ahead, and then it’s like all is lost, haha, no it’s not! See, I took the magic human ring from their pocket a long time ago, and now we can all - R [overlapping]: Going back to the heist kind of plot we described, like Danny Ocean - K: Yeah. R: - was an extremely competent person who was never out of control at any point. K: And even when we were left to think that he was out of control, that he was gonna derail this whole thing because of Tess, it turns out no, she was part of the plan the whole time. R: Yeah. K: So how do you have a character that has a lot of agency, can show forward thinking, without making them insufferable? R: We’ll start with casting George Clooney. K: Yes, yeah. All things are forgiven if it’s George Clooney. R: [laughing] K: Once you realize you can’t get George Clooney, what do you do? You have to make the character a person. Everyone works with somebody who, a situation will pop up and you know that no matter what you do, they are going to act irrationally because of something that happened prior. Everyone has a family member that won’t eat a certain thing, no matter how you prepare it, and the reasons that they won’t eat it are completely irrational. Everyone has the friend that just is constantly late, or changing plans last minute. These are X factors, these are things that make us human. And building a well-developed character who’s, even if they are hyper competent and they have planned everything out, still has to deal with base urges and moments of irrationality that are going to make them act in a way that maybe isn’t furthering the plan. But, they’re still showing agency when they do it. So for instance, you know the character standing at the thing and it’s like ‘okay I’m supposed to be following this guy who’s got the thing, but holy crap, there’s the guy who killed my brother! He’s walking that way, but I need to follow the guy who has the MacGuffin, because we need the MacGuffin, but this might be my only chance. He’s getting on a plane, I might never find this guy again.’ And decides to leave and go - it’s still agency, he’s still making a decision to his benefit, but at the cost of something else. R: Unless he figures out how to do both. So, as an editor, obviously you can’t name names - K: [laughing] R: - but what has been your experience with writers being told that they need to add agency to a story? K: Frequently confusion. R: Confusion because they don’t know what the heck that advice means, so they needed this episode. K: The thing is that if you have a completed book, a lot of times I think that you think your character is doing the best that your character can. I haven’t had to have that conversation a lot, but the times that I have weren’t the story as a whole, it was isolated to individual areas of the story. And a lot of times I framed it as ‘character So-and-so needs to make a decision. They need to do something. They need to stand up for themself. Or they have this thing that they know, they need to act on that, or they need to tell someone about it so that person can act on it. When I find areas where I’m like, I need this character to display a little more agency, is typically when - I’ll be honest with you, a lot of times it’s when the story stalled out a little bit. R: But is that a result of the character not behaving with agency? K: Well frequently when we get the character to act a little bit more on their behalf or make some decisions, it takes the storyline back up. R: Yeah. K: Weird, huh? [laughing] R: Funny how that happens. K: This all goes back to what we’re talking about here of going ‘why is it a big deal if my character’s passive?’ Because that can get boring. R: Yeah. And part of this is that we need the energy as a reader from that character’s desire to get from point A to point B, whether that’s an action or a target or an emotional state or whatever. That carries us along through the book and that makes the pages turn, versus the character just milling about with their hands in their pockets. K: I’ll leave us with this thought. I find a lot of times that characters who lack agency are typically not well-developed characters. And I’m not talking about in a certain scene, I’m not talking about the weird spot where the story’s stalling out a little bit, I’m talking about pervasive through the entirety of the story. A lack of agency is frequently coupled with a character that maybe isn’t that well-developed and whose arc, yes I’m tying in other vague advice to this, but whose character arc maybe isn’t that well fleshed out. Because if you have a well-developed character, you should know in your head what they would do in certain situations. You should know how they would act. If the character’s personality or development is ‘I will sit in this place, watch everything happen, and wait for it to be over,’ well, maybe that’s not a character you should be writing an entire book about. [laughing] All of this ties to everything else. All of this has to do with the other major things about books: themes, character arcs, plot, and place. Because characters who are well-developed shouldn’t need a lot of nudging to help themselves. R: Right, so if you have a character that knows what they want, sometimes this meandering comes out of the writer not quite sure how to get to the next thing, and might I suggest you just cut the scene and go to the next thing that is actually sometimes exactly what it needs. K: You brought up a very good point. I think a lot of times when, especially if it’s not pervasive if we’re dealing with an individual scene, it’s more a product of the writer struggling in that area. Either not knowing how to get us to the next place we need to be, be it physical or otherwise, or not having a good understanding of what’s gonna continue to happen in the story and either not wanting to write themselves into a corner, or not having a good way to continue. R: Yeah. And so then they get stuck in that character-introspective moment where they’re staring out the kitchen window, thinking about lots of stuff without acting in any way. K: It’s okay to have quote-unquote “downtime” for characters. It’s okay to give them some time where they need to think and regroup. I would say that is even displaying agency, that’s a planning portion. I’m not saying that every character at all times in your book must be active and must be doing things to further themselves to a goal. What I am saying, however, is that if they’re not doing anything through the course of the book, or if there are big chunks of it where we’re kinda going ‘whaaat’s going on here?’, that’s a larger problem. And one is easier to fix than the other. [laughing] Anyway, so, that’s agency, and that’s kinda what I have to say about it. That’s all I have to say about that. R: I doubt that very much. K: Well, that’s all I’ll say for now then. R: Yes, ‘cause we are over time. For me, if I get the feedback that my character’s lacking agency, I take a good look at what’s happening. And as Kaelyn said, if my character’s not a force that is causing things to happen in this story, or if there’s unnecessary downtime, or if there just isn’t a character arc, ‘cause sometimes I get this feedback for short stories. K: Mhm. R: And so that’s a good easy way to figure out like ‘oh, right, I don’t have a character arc. This character goes and observes a thing, and I’m trying to make commentary on the thing but I’m not actually having the character affect any change on the thing.’ Then it’s not really agency, it is the character observing the world around them and having an opinion about it, which isn’t the same as having a character arc. K: Yeah. R: If that happens in a novel, it’s more excruciating because it’s a lot more words that you’ve put time into. I rewrote SALVAGE, the first 60% that I rewrote, the first time I rewrote the first 60%, was because of an agency issue. K: Mhm. R: My characters start out the book; they’re stuck on the island, and all I did to change it was change the way they were planning their stuck-ness. K: [laughing] R: They’d been there the same amount of time, they were the same amount of frustrated, they were in the same amount of danger and having to make sure that nobody noticed them that shouldn’t notice them. But, in the second version, there’s a heist. Versus the first version where there’s a lot of watching the clock. And which one would you rather read? K: Exactly, yeah. There’s certainly an argument to make -- I think, a strong argument that I would say is borderline law -- that watching characters act with agency is far more engaging than watching them as passive observers. R: Yep. K: Unless it’s Twilight, and then you’re just gonna sell a billion copies of basically a weird choose-your-own-adventure, but not really. R: Yes. Well, not all our characters are as beautiful and attractive and wonderful and captivating as Bella, so we’re just gonna have to give them agency. K: She doesn’t know how beautiful - R [overlapping]: Right no of course not - K [overlapping]: No of course not, no - R: The plot is her finding out that people find her attractive. K: And she smells really good. [Both laughing] R: A fine vintage. Okay. K: Twilight is one of those things that like, I wonder if 150 years from now when we’re all dead, and they look back at this and go like ‘God, people in the earlier 2000s were weird.’ R: I mean, you could say that about most ages I think. K: That’s true. Yeah. R: There’s plenty of evidence throughout history of humans being just freakin’ weird. K: Context is everything, but. R: Yep. K: Yeah, so anyway, that’s agency. R: It is. Go get some, and give it to your characters. K: And always agency on your own behalf, you as a real life person always get to have. R: Yeah! I mean, especially when you’ve been locked inside for a year and a half. It’s about time to get some agency. K: Yup. R: So if you have questions or comments, or you still don’t know what agency is or what to do with it when someone tells you you need more, then you can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, or you can go back to some of the other episodes we talked about; they are all at wmbcast.com. We would love if you would leave a rating and review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. And also we are super grateful to all our patrons at Patreon.com/wmbcast who support the costs involved in making these episodes for you. So if they are helpful, and you have the cash and the agency - K: [laughing] R: Please head on over there. K: I see what you did there. R: Oh yeah, you like that? Thanks. K: I did, I did. So thanks everyone, we’ll see you in two weeks!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Links for this episode: Worldbuilding for Masochists Podcast Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 60 Transcription   After intro: [00:26]   Rekka: She was tuuckered out yesterday. I was tuckered out yesterday. [laughing] The trainer had us running around a field and it was the first time I had done any real, like, quick movements, certainly out in the sun on an 80 degree day, when I had forgotten water for both me and Evie, and the trainer only said “oh I have some in the car,” she only gave it to Evie, she didn’t give me any. But she’s like “jump around! Be active! Be real animated!” And I’m like ohh my goodness, do you not realize, that this is me animated.   [both laughing]   Rekka: So I was like, how about I lay down and pretend to be a dead squirrel, dogs love dead squirrels. [laughing]   Kaelyn: [laughing] Aww.   R: So we were all tired yesterday. So today, we are talking about worldbuilding.   K: We are.   R: We are. We are talking about mostly not overdoing your worldbuilding.   K: And because it’s me, we’re certainly going to be talking about some of the elements of worldbuilding as well. Worldbuilding is the process of creating, constructing, and coming up with the rules for an imaginary world, or sometimes an entire fictional universe. There’s a lot of elements that go into this - interesting fact that I found while doing some research for this: the first time “worldbuilding” was used was actually in 1820.   R: The term, or..?   K: The term “worldbuilding” was first used in 1820 in the Edinburgh Review.   R: Okay.    K: Fiction has existed in one form or another all through the course of humanity, obviously, you know, as we got into more recent centuries, literature became a little more organized? I guess? For lack of a better term.   R: So that’s the first time it appeared in print as far as we know, in English, and presumably someone would have said it aloud and said “hey that sounds pretty good.” K: Yeah, you know what, I have to - I’ll try to dig up the article because I am curious but, the Edinburgh Review was, of course, just reviewing published stories and literature and reviews of different things. So the term really gained a lot of traction in the early 1900s when we saw a lot of science fiction and fantasy writing. A really good example, actually of thorough worldbuilding based off of existing history, would probably be Huxley’s Brave New World, and I think that was 1932, I believe.    K: Regardless of where your story is set, what time it’s set, how much you’re using and building off existing human history, or if this takes place in a galaxy far, far away, there’s certain elements you have to have in worldbuilding. One of the good places to start is geography. If it’s Earth: you’re done. No problem. [laughing] You have established that the world is Earth.   R: But do you? Do you even say [laughing] that you are writing a story on Earth, if you are on Earth?    K: You name a place that the reader would presumably have context for. If, you know, the story is set in Delhi, India then yes we’re on Earth. Tokyo, places we’ve heard of.   R: So in fair Verona, on planet Earth where we lay our scene.   K [laughing]: On planet Earth, yes, Shakespeare did always make sure to specify that.   R: That’s what I was kinda saying is that -   K: Yeah.   R: - because of context, because of cultural understanding, some books, current for the audience they were intended for, are going to need less explanation of the setting than others.   K: Yeah, now the other component of geography then, especially if you’re writing a fantasy or a science fiction story, there’s probably some hidden world elements in there. It may not be a hidden world story, but there’s probably some things that regular people don’t see, or some locations that you have to create. So that’s part of establishing your geography.   R: Hidden or invented?   K: Well, invented and hidden.   R: I’m just making you define your definitions.   K [laughing]: Okay.   R: When you say hidden, do you mean literally, like underground caverns? Or do you just -   K: Could be! R: - mean secret societies -   K: It could be any of those. For secret society, we’d be talking about the place that the secret society meets. In some cases, this could be established places that you’re repurposing for your story, but you still need to establish the geography of what these are and where these are.   R: The Mall of America.   K: Exactly.   R: Where my cabal meets every Sunday.   K: Wait, that’s where I’m hiding my Deathstar.   R: It’s a big mall.   K: It is a big mall. Yeah.   R [overlapping]: You could do both things.   K: So [laughing] geography is just a good way to get yourself grounded of where things are especially in relation to each other and that’s very important if your story is set on the road. Because otherwise we start ending up with some Game of Thrones style jetpack -   R: You mean like fast travel? [laughing]   K: Yeah, there were some characters that the running joke was like, for them to have gotten from place A to place B in that amount of time they must have some secret Game of Thrones jetpack that they’re [laughing] doing this with.   R: Well, then you need fossil fuels.   K: Yeah, or dragons.   R: This really - well, yeah, how about you just hop on a dragon! Turns out, everybody was riding dragons in these books -   K [laughing]: Yeah.   R: - it’s just that some people made a bigger fuss about it than others.   K: [laughing]   R: We all ride dragons! All the time! You’re not that cool.   K: So geography is a good way to get your story grounded, so to speak. Now if you’re building one from the ground up—a world, that is—you may not know exactly where everything is when you start writing, and that’s okay. But having a rough idea is very helpful, especially - as I said - if your characters are going to be traveling from place to place because knowing how long it should take them to get from place to place is critical to the story.   R: Yeah, I was just gonna say this is a very story critical element, not just -   K: Yeah.   R: - the setting, some stories could happen almost anywhere, and the setting is not 100% ingrained in the story.    K: Yes, and geography then also plays into one of the other major elements of worldbuilding, which is culture. So where your characters live and what their setting and environment looks like, is really going to affect what type of people they are. But if you have an entire village set on a rocky island in a stormy area in the middle of nowhere isolated from the rest of the people of this kingdom, and those people aren’t good with boats, that’s probably a problem.   [Both laughing]   R: Well, it depends how rough the water is, maybe the water is an actual obstacle.   K: Well, see? And there you go.   R: [laughing]   K: Because the geography there comes into play, because maybe this is an isolated group that never gets off this island because the water is too rough.   R: Maybe the water’s frozen!   K: Maybe the water’s frozen!   R: [giggles]   K: This is going to feed into their culture and what these people are like. This isn’t just culture based on their surroundings though, you have to establish everything about culture which is: their past, their current social structure, religious elements, what do they eat, what do people do there for a living, are they part of a greater entity and if so, what is their contribution to this greater entity.   R: I feel like now would be a good time to make a nod to the podcast Worldbuilding for Masochists.   K: Yes! Yes. [laughing]   R: Which, if you haven’t heard it, goes episode by episode just taking one aspect, and for a while there the hosts were actually building a world with no intention of writing for it, just literally like “okay what’s another thing to consider about this world?” and each host was handling a certain element or a certain region and it’s good evidence of how you can worldbuild and never ever ever get to your story. Because as Kaelyn’s outlining, there’s a lot to go into a finely detailed world for your narrative story, so this way trouble lies -   K: [laughing]   R: - if you are on deadline, for example. [laughing]   K: And there’s a good example of this: Tolkien.   R: Mhm.   K: Tolkien wrote a lot of his books because he was a linguist and he came up with all of these languages and then created history around the languages - because languages are intrinsically linked to history - and then developed this very rich, millenia-long history of Middle Earth, and then he wrote a story set well after he’d actually established all of these things. So he spent a lot of time creating a world and this history to not tell stories that were necessarily set in that, but to tell stories that were a product of everything that he had created.    R: But for this later world that he writes his setting into, the history he created is their history and you can tell.   K [overlapping]: It’s very important to the story as well, yes. If you’ve ever read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you will know that there is an exhaustive amount of time spent with characters having conversations in different languages, and that’s because this is what Tolkien was all about.   R: That's what he really wanted to write. [chuckles]   K: Yeah, he was very into creating languages. And that, by the way, is why people can learn Elvish, because it’s an actual language with an alphabet - so to speak, if you want to call it that - grammatical rules, syntax, all of the things that need to be there to create a language.   K: But anyway, so culture elements are important because, especially if you are creating a brand new world, if you’re fabricating or you’re building from nothing, you have to have a world that these people live in. You can’t just take a group of people, plop them down, and say: “and then one day a dragon came!” Because we have no context then for: is this a good thing? are they happy the dragon’s there, or did the dragon come to eat them? Is this a frequent problem, are dragons kind of like rats, do they just pop up every now and then and you’ve gotta deal with it? Do they have methods for this? If the dragon eats all of them, is that the end of the story, or what happens to the dragons? [laughing]   R: Was the dragon prophesied? Have they been anticipating their arrival or -   K: Exactly.   R: - was it a surprise? [laughing] like surprise dragons.   K [laughing]: A surprise dragon! The best kind of dragon.   [both laughing]   K: So, establishing the culture, apart from being good for worldbuilding, helps a writer figure out how characters would react or act based on certain events. Leading in from culture, next I would say is cosmology. And I’m gonna put this in two different perspectives here: the science fiction and the fantasy. For science fiction, you gotta establish what’s up there.   R: [giggles]   K: Stars and planets and who lives on what and how fast can you get to them, what's the gravity like, what’s the air situation like, are they all just the planet Venus which is incredibly toxic, or are they all just Saturn and we don’t really know what they’re made up of? [laughing] For worldbuilding and science fiction, that’s very important especially if your story is set in space. And you still, by the way, can absolutely have science fiction set on Earth, in which case the cosmology is ours. And that’s fine, just establish that. But anytime you’re involving space marines, aliens, wormhole travel, you gotta establish, not just Earth, but everything else that we’re interacting with.   K: So then on the fantasy side, it’s a little bit more metaphysical. This kind of leads into the culture aspect. We need to know you know, on this planet - or setting or town or wherever it is - how do these people think about their place in the universe?   R: Is it the center of the universe? Do they have awareness of other life sustaining planets? Do they understand that there are planets or is it just sparkly things in the sky?   K: Are they the dominant species? Is there another one that’s equivalent to them? But also how do they see themselves in the world? Are they a chosen people of a deity that put them there? Are they the rejected children of an angry god? Did they just accept that they evolved from whatever was swimming around in the primordial ooze and now that’s -    [both laughing]   K: - that’s where they are? A lot of times in fantasy, there’s beings of varying degrees of power and there’s frequently like a hierarchy of these and now, granted, some of them - they may be all the same species and some of them are just more powerful than others.   R: Mhm.   K: But typically when you involve magic there’s an otherworldliness to it; the magic is coming from somewhere, so that’s something that needs to be addressed in the cosmological metaphysical scale, if you will.   R: Okay.   K: So then that bleeds into the fourth one, which is physics.   R: You know what, just throw physics out the window, it’s very optional.   K: Well, ‘cause you gotta decide: are you sticking to real world physics? If so, what are you gonna do when you need to invent things, are you gonna try to apply the rules that we theoretically would apply to these things? Or are you just gonna kind of make up like, “yes and we’ve invented a way to take dark matter and make it into energy.” Don’t do that unless you can really back that up. [laughing]   R: Hey, lots of people try. The other thing is, if you can find out the largest argument against doing that, like if other people have tried it in their books and real world physicists have offered their criticism of the method, then you have a scene where one character says: “how did you solve the such and such quandary?”   K: Yes.   R: And you invent a method, give it a name but do not explain it, and just hand wave the heck out of it.   K: Yeah, so how much are you gonna stick to real world physics, and how much is gonna be magic? And obviously magic tends to dabble more into the fantasy side, but you can still apply physics to this. You still have Newton’s primary laws involved there, you know an object in motion tends to stay in motion, okay so a spell that’s already cast tends to continue to be cast -   [both laughing]   K: Maybe you get a little more into a Fullmetal Alchemist with the equal exchange principal, which by the way, is also rooted in physics: matter cannot be created or destroyed.   R: Right.   K: That, though, ties into cosmology frequently which is: where is the magic coming from?   R: Mhm.   K: All of these things that I’ve talked about here, these are how you are going to establish your “rules” of this world. Be they geography, travel, physics, magic, society and culture - this is how you have to set these up in order to place your characters in a setting that makes sense.   R: Okay. Would you say that concludes the definition?   K: Well I would say those are my four elements that I would highlight.   R: Okay.   K: There’s definitely more, and like, subelements within those but I think those are always a good place to start.   R: Okay. So this episode topic was proposed to us as: how do you create worldbuilding that doesn't trap you in both rules and details? So now that you’ve just told people to invent everything -   K [overlapping]: [laughing]   R: - from the Big Bang to the point of your story, how do you make sure you don't?   K: I’m assuming in this scenario we’re talking about multiple books or short stories set in the same world.   R: Why does it have to be multiple?   K: Because, if you are building a world and worried about trapping yourself, you would be able to write your way out of it if it was one book.   R: You think.   K: I think, yes.   R: My answer to this is don’t put all the details in the book.   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: Understand your rules and understand your basic principles, but don’t reference them in the book because that does then therefore hold you accountable when you get readers who are so enthusiastic about the world you’ve created that they start to write these things down.   K: Writing yourself into a corner with world building - I’m not saying this to be critical of anyone’s writing style, but this is why planning is important. There are certain things that you kind of just need to know are gonna happen in the story in order to construct the world properly. If you get too far into it, you keep adding too much backstory, too much history of the characters, you’re gonna start to run into situations where - like Rekka was saying - there’s contradictions. When you really start to have problems with writing yourself into a corner is when your stories and characters get large enough that they have to keep expanding, that you’ve gone on and on and on in this world for a while.    K: George R.R. Martin has fans who are sort of archivists for him, that he will send them the books or novellas or even like preview chapters, to check against what he’s already written to make sure he’s not contradicting himself in any way. He let them write The World of Ice and Fire book, that was written by just fans of the series that were documenting all of this stuff, so they worked in conjunction with Martin on this, and even with that, he still - things still slip in those books. The scale and sprawl of the world in A Song of Ice and Fire is gigantic; I would argue it’s the biggest problem in getting these books released now -   R: Mhm.   K: - because you’ve flung all of these characters to such far corners and come up against these problems of how do we get this person to here to interact with this person but then get them back over to where I need them to be at the end of this story.   R: A dragon with a jetpack.   K: Yes. Yes. Oh, so the dragons have jetpacks now?   R: I mean it makes more sense; they’re the fireproof ones.   K: That’s a good point, yeah. So in terms of not writing yourself into a corner. This isn’t maybe the most encouraging answer, but I’m going to say that if your world keeps growing and you have to keep adding history and new characters, it’s going to happen.   R: It’s absolutely going to happen. This is a problem that, on the one hand is frustrating, but on the other hand can be good to have. You end up writing more about your worldbuilding and more about your details than writing out your story.   K: This, again, falls into a lot of early epic fantasy where it felt more like there were characters that we were just watching interact with a world so that we could learn more about the world. And the story itself [giggling] wasn’t as important. There’s definitely a balance, but the thing about worldbuilding - about good worldbuilding - is that once you establish it, your reader shouldn’t need a lot of context for it. They should kind of understand: this is the world that this story and these characters are set in, and be able to apply that to the rest of the book as they’re reading it.   K: I wanna distinguish here between setting and worldbuilding, because worldbuilding is not necessarily describing a specific place -   R [overlapping]: Mhm.   K: - it’s describing all of the places and giving the reader context for them. A setting is “places that the characters are.”   R: Right, but if you are showing off your worldbuilding -   K: Yes.   R: - by describing your setting -   K: They certainly can cross, yes, but they -   R [overlapping]: - how do you stop yourself from doing that? Just get a really good friend to smack your hand and tell you “no you’ve gone too far here?”   K: You mean when you’ve gone too far in the world building and we’re getting into like, an exposition dump?   R: Yeah!   K: Yeah, that’s editorial to be honest with you. That’s something that you revisit in drafts, that’s something that you get feedback on. If you have a really richly built and developed world with history and culture and all of these interesting things that you’ve spent time and effort thinking about, there’s gonna be this inclination to just dump all of it at once, to just do a lot of: “these such and such people lived here, and they had spent a lot of generations at war with this and that people who were allies of the third people.” There’s ways to do this and it’s a skill you have to develop, it takes a certain amount of finessing.   R: Usually, some allow more for it than others.   K: Yeah absolutely, and there’s a lot of clever ways to squeeze this in there, and by the way, this isn’t to say that there’s something wrong with a character giving the reader information - either through an internal monologue or explaining something to someone. There’s all sorts of great articles - and, I would imagine, Youtube videos, subreddits - about worldbuilding tips and tricks. So there are ways of incorporating that into your story without having to give a long, tiresome, and confusing explanation. Dropping a lot of information on the reader, they’re not going to retain that.   R: Mhm.   K: Whenever I’m reading a book where I have to keep track of certain places or groups of people or what different types of magical abilities do and mean, I need to re read that a couple times. When there’s a page that has information on I usually bookmark it so that when later -   R [overlapping]: [laughing]   K: - I see it referenced, I can go back and be like okay, yes, those are the people that control fire, you know? [laughing]   R: Kaelyn doesn’t read with bookmarks, she reads with post it notes. [giggles]   K: I - yes. I do still read physical books and sometimes it is bookmarks and post it notes. [laughing]    R: So that brings to mind the idea of how much a reader has to remember what you write in your exposition. If you’re just describing a setting, can you get away with more than laying out the way things work?   K: My experience tends to be that readers will remember descriptions well, because when they’re reading through something and you’re describing, you know, vast mountains capped with snow and trees stopping at a certain point because of the -   R: So that’s imagery.   K: Yes, because you’re giving them something to picture in their mind. What is kind to do for readers, especially if these are things you’ve made up - let’s pretend in Avatar, waterbenders were called something specific. [laughing] You remind them, Katara was a whatever the word is, she controlled water. There are ways to drop those reminders in there so that readers don’t get frustrated by like “I don’t even know who this person is or where they’re from at this point.”   R: But that is a good point. When you’re naming things -   K [overlapping]: Mhm.   R: - consider being a little bit more explicit in the name than to come up with secondary world terms.   K: Yes but, if you do decide to do that - this is where I’m gonna, not derail us a little bit, but talk about another element in the book that can be helpful here which is maps and glossaries.   R: Mhm.   K: We did a whole episode about maps and why they’re so useful and helpful, one of the great reasons is worldbuilding. It’s really nice to open a book and, assuming you can do it without spoilers, see a map there to give the readers some context of where the world is and what’s going on there. I always, whenever I get a map, I like to take a look at it and look at some of the names of places and get an idea of like “okay so I guess we’re going here eventually, we’re probably going there eventually.”   R: Mhm.   K: Glossaries are good for that too, especially when you have to create a lot of stuff, it’s good for the reader to be able to flip back to one of those terms to go like “oh yes, okay, that’s this kind of magic.”   R: Right, and this is a spot where unfortunately, digital and audio do not help us.   K [overlapping]: No.   R: Like if you’re reading a paperback of something you can flip to these things, you can keep your finger in it as you go through, as opposed to - you can put a post it in it! - whereas it is really difficult on, say, a digital reader. It’s still not as natural an experience -   K [overlapping]: Yeah.   R: - as flipping to either the start or the finish. All of my Peridot books have glossaries in them and I feel bad every time I think of anyone reading it in audio.   [both laughing]   R: Because it’s not there, and while yes you can download the files to pair with the audio, you’re generally doing something while you’re listening to an audiobook.   K: Yeah.   R: But I agree with you about the map. The worldbuilding that you get out of a map is pretty impactful in terms of the distance between things, as you started off saying, like how many jetpack refuels does your dragon need -   K: [laughing]   R: - to get from point a to point b in your story.   K: I’ve also seen a lot of books now, especially where there’s a large caste of characters and certain groups or family units, in the beginning of the book they’ll just have a list of them or maybe a family tree.   R: Speaking of Romeo and Juliet again like you have the dramatis personae -   K: Yes, exactly.   R: - a real quick rundown of how they relate to other characters and stuff, again not helpful in audio. Again, this is front matter back matter -  if you had the clout, you could print a separate book of your world bible.   K: And by the way, if you have a glossary, a map, a dramatis personae in this, that is not an excuse to not do the worldbuilding.   R [overlapping]: Right, that’s what I was gonna come back to was like, okay so you’re sticking it outside the actual story, but I would argue that it’s important to be able to read the story and understand everything without supplemental reading material.   K: Yeah, that should be there either for prestory context - reader, I’m gonna throw a lot of people at you, I know it’s gonna be a little tricky to keep track of it have this helpful guide to who these people are -   R: Mhm.   K: - or it’s just a “hey heads up here’s everyone in here,” but that still means you need to do the actual worldbuilding and do the work in the book.   R: Right. So using a prime example, a recent example is the Gideon the Ninth -   K [overlapping]: Ah, yes, one of our favorites [garbled through laughter]   R: [overlapping]: - The Locked Tomb Trilogy. I would much rather talk about Gideon all day than A Song of Ice and Fire, let’s be real.   K: [laughing]   R: So, it begins with names from each of the houses. Not only that but it sets a little bit of tone  -   K: Yeah.   R: - for each of the houses without saying “these houses are like this.” So it begins with, in order of House appearance: “The Ninth House, keepers of the Locked Tomb, house of the Sewn Tongue, the Black Vestals.” And that in itself is worth like six paragraphs of explanation that -   K: Absolutely.   R: - this is just what goes with that name. And then you have the multiple names of the characters that you’re going to encounter from this House, and no explanation as to what they’re like or anything like that. So you’ve gotten a tone for the setting, the Ninth House, you get that like, the names all sort of have a structure to them, and that’s what you get from that pre reading list. And then you get in and then you get the characterization, just like you would if you were not going to have forty characters dumped on you in the course of this book.   K: Yeah, and by the way, because this author is diabolical, by the time we get to the second book, the dramatis personae in the beginning is doing an extra level of work here because they had to do it without spoiling things. So it’s actually creating this air of mystery - which absolutely contributes to worldbuilding by the way. There’s something weird going on here because there’s some contradictions in this, or some people that you can tell are deliberately left out, and then you have to start wondering why.   R: And Kaelyn was very aware of this -   K [overlapping]: I -   R: - jumped right on those little details after reading it the first time, before the second book was out; the second book came out, Kaelyn read it and was texting me like “I have questions!”    K: [laughing]   R: But yeah in the first book you’re introduced to twenty-eight people in three pages, and their alliances that they’re gonna start the book out with, and then you get to meet them. So a dramatis personae is not all the details, it’s not the hair color, it’s not attitude, it’s not history, it’s just “here are the names so you can keep them straight, who was that again, okay that was this person” and maybe then you remember that they had a pinched little mouth.   K: There’s a [laughing] a lot of ways to do this, it just depends the amount of effort and detail you wanna put into it.   R: And some genre expectations too.   K [overlapping]: And some genre expectations, to be sure, absolutely.   R: Always.   K: This can get as straightforward as set in Denver in the present day, and it's primarily just regular human beings and -   R: At a grocery store.   K: At a grocery store, yeah. You still need to establish that so you’re still building your world there -   R: Mhm.   K: - or you can take this as far as something like -   R: New Denver Colony!   K [laughing]: Yeah, exactly, something like Lord of the Rings or Star Trek where there’s just layers and layers of history and characters and different races and species and it’s so expansive that you can just keep adding and adding to it. So what’s the right way to make sure you don’t write yourself into a corner? Well the thing is, if you’re gonna keep developing your worldbuilding, you’re going to [write yourself into a corner] eventually.   R: Yeah. The fun part of being a writer is figuring out how to get yourself out of that corner without being able to change the stuff that’s already been published. I’ve done it! [giggles]   K: Yeah! Leaving yourself some backdoors, if you will, is not a bad idea.   R: Although that requires that you -   K: Plan them.   R: - predict a little bit of the trouble you might run into.   K: Which is a very possible thing to do.   R: If you have a magic system that has a bunch of rules, you could always say “but then there’s Chaos Magic.” And then Chaos Magic can just be a little bit of the antirule that you need later on.   K: Yeah, making something forbidden or the lost art, something that no one has access to, just to have in your back pocket -   R: But just know your readers are gonna wanna hear about it.   K: Yes, absolutely.   R: You might have to write a novella outside your main storyline just to satisfy some readers about that lost locked tomb art of chaos magic.   K [overlapping]: Yeah, Chekov’s Chaos Magic. But again, Rekka’s right then, if you bring something like that up and you’re like yeah, well, that’s forbidden, nobody practices that anymore, you don't have to say, but you have to indicate why. Was it because they destroyed the world, was it because whoever used it died horribly -   R: [giggles]   K: - was it because they just forgot how to do it? There’s historical instances of that, Greek fire is a real thing that existed that we lost the recipe for and nobody can make. There’s theories as to what it was but [laughing] no one can recreate it.   R: And maybe we should leave it that way.    K: Yeah probably but -   R: But what kind of book would it be if we did?   K [laughing]: Exactly.   R: And that’s the other part of it, it’s not just making it explained ‘cause you don’t wanna be like “there’s this forbidden art which we don’t do ‘cause it killed people,” like okay yeah fine, but that forbidden art is gonna be in this book. You say forbidden as a storyteller and I expect somebody to crack that nut.   K: Yeah, the readers will start salivating at that point.   R: Mhm.   K: I’ve read books where there were things that were mentioned that never were discussed again and it's infuriating.    R: Yeah, what happened to the fireworks factory?   K [laughing]: Yeah that’s exactly -   R: That’s a Simpsons reference, yeah.   K: Got too close to the Greek fire.   [both laughing]   R: Yeah, well, there ya go.   K: So how to not write yourself into a corner, the best advice I can give is try to leave yourself a backdoor. And this means that you have done a really good job of worldbuilding, because as Rekka said, you’re anticipating where you could run into problems. And that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t go down that road, it just means that you also need to have another road that you can diverge onto -   R: [laughing]   K: - in order to circumvent this problem and come up behind it, attack it, defeat it, be victorious over your own book.   R: I mean that’s the goal every time.   K: Yeah. Yeah, you really are just sort of in the act of defeating something.   R: Take your project and beat it into submission.   [both laughing]   R: That’s actually writing.   K: [laughing] Will be defeated into the ground.   R: Hey, I am learning right now with puppy training that what you wanna do is be more interesting than the problem -   K: Yep.   R: - so that you can distract and be fun, and reward. So I feel like that’s a good way to - can we apply that to writing, can we just distract the reader from the flaws -   K: No.   R: - in our logic, and the rules -   K: Nope.   R: - that we backed ourselves into?   K: Nope. [laughing]   R: But it works - what if there are liver treats?   K: [laughing] I don’t want any of those.   R [overlapping]: Squeak toys?   K [laughing]: Okay, I’ll take a squeaky toy.   R [laughing]: Okay.   K: But you know, the thing is Rekka, eventually I’m gonna chew the squeaky toy apart and then I’m gonna be like hey, wait, hang on, you promised me forbidden chaos magic.   R: Well, too bad, I have to take you to the vet because you swallowed the valve and now we have to have [laughing] your stomach operated on.   K: [laughing] Yeah, so you can keep trying to distract the reader but eventually you’re gonna have to answer for these things.   R: Okay what if your story is so interesting that the forbidden magic is actually the least interesting thing that you’re talking about in your plot?   K: Alright, I’ll give you a pass there.   R: Alright! I win!   K: [laughing]   K: I’m curious what you’re gonna come up with that’s more interesting than [laughing] forbidden chaos magic.   R [overlapping]: I didn’t say I was gonna write this. I’m not gonna write this.   K: Now I need it, I need to know what you’re gonna come up with that’s more interesting than forbidden chaos magic.   R [groaning]: Fiiiine.   K: [laughing]   R: Fine, I’ll work this into my next project.   K: Excellent. So yeah, I think that’s some of the fundamentals on worldbuilding. I’m sure we'll talk more about this in the future. Oh, you know what, one last thing. If you’re having trouble with worldbuilding and you just really do not know where to start, go get the Dungeons & Dragons official manual, because it actually has a guide for worldbuilding in there.   R: Hm.   K: It’s not perfect, it’s not the end all be all, but if you’re just really at a loss, not a bad place to start to help get some of your thoughts organized. And there are things online that are similar to this, they’ll give you steps to take like, “okay think about this, now think about this.”   R: Yeah I would say that Wonderbook by Jeff VanderMeer et al is about writing but it’s also - there’s a lot of worldbuilding in there and could get your brain really juiced about different things to consider.   K: By the way, if you’re having trouble with worldbuilding, if you’re going, well I need to create this whole alien society and culture and religious system and everything and you’re really having trouble coming up with it, maybe that’s a good time to take a step back and go: maybe that’s not the kind of book I should be writing right now. Can the story be set on Earth and with people and maybe the aliens are just on Earth so that’s minimized your worldbuilding requirements.   R: It’s about the size and shape of the story you enjoy writing. Because you could enjoy watching a movie where it’s all way deep space, but do you enjoy writing it as much as you enjoy when other people do that work.   K: Yeah, exactly.   R: You have a choice.   K: Got a few of them. [laughing]   R: Unless you were hired to ghostwrite this story and you’re stuck.   K: No, then that’s your problem.   R: If you’ve gotten to the point where you’re being hired to write other peoples’ stories, it probably means you already know what to do here.   K [laughing]: Yeah.   R: So write in and tell us.   K: And Rekka, if they wanna write in -   R: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter and at WMBcast.com for all our old episodes and if you are loving the commentary [laughing] along with the puppy barks and actual useful advice from Kaelyn, then you can support us at Patreon.com/WMBcast.   K: Hopefully as always, this was at least educational and entertaining.   R: Or at least useful.   K: At least a little bit useful, yeah, if nothing else, you go to hear some puppy sounds in the back.    R: Yes. [laughing]   K: That’s always a bonus.   R: Let’s see how many I can edit out.   [both laughing]   R: This might just be Evie’s episode, co-host Evie.   K: So thanks everyone and we’ll see you in two weeks!   R: Talk to you next time.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by Tori P) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: Did you get your second shot yet?   Rekka: We get it on Saturday.   K [mumbling]: Okay.   R: ‘Cause cool people get the vaccination.   K: You hear that kids? Be cool, get vaccinated.   R: Be Extremely cool. Be cool like me. [laughing] I don't know if that’s selling it but-   K: [laughing]    R: -that’s what i’m gonna go with.   K: I get mine May second. I got the moderna one so I had to wait four weeks and -   R: Mhm. Yeah, I get two weeks between mine [loudly] it depends on your publisher.   K: [laughing]    K: Speaking of things that come in part two-   R: Yep, speaking of duologies-   K: The covid duology, oh there we go.   R [overlapping]: Yes, well the vaccine duology, not the covid itself-   K [overlapping]: Yeah.   R: Because you don't wanna get covid and then long covid, that’s one duology. The duology I’m all about is the mRNA duology, let’s do that one.   K: We’ve got shots part two coming up here.   R: Mhm.   K: And you know, in many ways the vaccine is kind of similar to a duology. The first one’s the build up, the first one’s to get you a little bit of a taste there, get your immune system going like “hey, what is this? What's going on? What's happening?” and then the second one, that’s BAM, you know? like-   R: That’s when it all happens   K: - fully immune. Yeah and that’s [laughing] that’s why everyone’s getting sick from the second one.   R: Ugh yeah, I don’t think this metaphor’s gonna last us too much longer. But, we are talking today about duologies.   K: As promised.   R: Yes, we are following through on the promise, the commitment we made, to follow last episode’s trilogy discussion with a discussion of duologies, and why they are harder than the thing we made sound really hard.   K: Yeah, so. You know, last episode we talked about trilogies, and how trilogies can be really challenging, and one of the things we touched on was: if you’re really having a hard time with this, maybe you don’t have a trilogy. Maybe you have a duology. So, a duology, obviously, is a series of two books rather than a trilogy being three, although quadrilogies are becoming a thing now. Four books is getting super common. So, just to clarify some things here. If you’re going “I did not hear the word duology ever, until about a year ago, or so,” you’re right, you didn’t. [laughing] This wasn’t really a very common thing.    R: This wasn’t a thing, there was a book and a sequel but there wasn't a thing called a duology.   K: Yeah and by the way, let’s clarify this real quickly here, the difference between a book and a sequel, and a duology. A duology is a story split up into two books. A book and a sequel is, presumably, one complete story and then another complete story.   R: In the same world, usually featuring the same characters, spun off somehow.   K: Yes.   K: Contractual finite book series are kind of a relatively recent thing. You know, for those of you who have been reading science fiction and fantasy for a long time - especially, you know, when it first started, you know, the trade paperbacks and the pulp and everything was really popular - will know that series, especially genre series - and not just science fiction and fantasy: mystery, murder, thrillers, spy novels, war novels -   R: Mhm.   K: - they tended to go on infinitely. Each book would be a standalone story, sometimes encompassing a bigger arc. Fantasy, this was very common, I mean, look at the Wheel of Time -   R: You could start a series, see success, and the publisher would just keep printing it because they felt like they were printing money.   K: Yeah, and a lot of times what they would do is: you’d get a book published, and you’d establish a, typically a main character or a world, or - maybe something like an overarching story plot -   R : or a concept at least. K: Yeah, in fantasy that was a lot more common in this sort of epic quest that was just gonna keep going and going. Lord of the Rings is actually kind of unique, in that it was a specific trilogy published at that time. That wasn’t very common.   R: Right.   K: You know, these epic fantasies tended to just, they just kept writing and writing, and that's why so many of them have such complicated character family histories, a lot of world building, a lot of different races and imagined and created history in them. But anyway. Then you have some of these other series that, each book was its own individual story, and they just keep going.   R: Mhm.   K: That is not a trilogy or even a duology, even if it ended up being only two books. Trilogies and duologies have an overarching story that it’s gonna take three, two, four, however many books to tell. But with a duology - there’s a reason there aren’t a lot of these: they’re really hard to write. A lot of times when you have a duology on your hands, you’re deciding either: do I have a standalone, single book, or do I have a duology, OR, do I have this whole trilogy, or do I have a duology.   R: How much of this ends up being up to the author, and how much of it ends up being a way to market the story? Like, trilogy in general, I would imagine that an author comes in thinking: okay, I have this story and then I can see where it’s going from there and I can wrap it up in three, versus I have this story, is it too big for a book?   K: You kind of hit on something interesting there and something we talked about in the trilogies episodes, is: I have this story, is it three books? Remember what we said in the trilogies episodes, a lot of them - a lot of contracts are: “we’re buying the first book of your trilogy, and then the next two are contingent on sales.”    R: Mhm.   K: So the first book, typically, is somewhat a self contained story. It’s enticing you to the second and third books, but if that’s it, it's a satisfactory ending.   R: Mhm.   K: That does not happen with a duology. Duology -   R: You will not have a satisfying ending, got it. [giggles]   K: You are not gonna have a satisfying ending in the middle of a duology. There is an appeal in marketing for duologyies. Some people don’t want to commit years to waiting for the next book to come out. They just want two books to be done and come out and, by the way, that tends to happen with duologies. Because it’s one big story, you probably get it out faster. Duologies, when someone sits down to write them, you tend to write the entire thing, or at least do really good draft work on the entire story, because at some point you gotta decide where to stop the first book.    R: Can’t you just, like, divide the page number in half?   K: What I would do usually is drop it on the floor, pick up one page, and that was the end of the first book. [pause] Sometimes it was the fifth page into the book, it was really awkward. [laughing] but you know-   R [overlapping]: I was gonna say like, if I just picked up a stack of papers of a printed manuscript and dropped it on the floor, I think the cover page would be the first one I pick up.   K: Well, you have to throw it down the stairs so that it gets a nice -   R: Oh, you have to be specific about your method -   K: Yeah, yeah I’m sorry, you’re right.   R: - we’re supposed to be providing usable advice.   K: Stand at the top of the stairs, face backwards with the stair behind you. You take the unbound pages, throw them over your head, walk halfway down the stairs and pick up a page from the middle stair. And then that’s the end of the first book.   R: What if nothing settles on the middle stair?   K: You gotta get all the pages and do it again.   [both laughing]   R: But you have to put them back in order first- K [laughing]: Yeah, exactly.   R: - because otherwise it’s not authentic. Okay but joking aside, I think you were about to give us very good advice on how you do choose that moment.   K: Okay so, this goes to why duologies are so difficult to write because stories, traditionally, have a beginning, middle, and end. Anything that you’re telling somebody, be it what you ordered for lunch, or your epic road trip doing the Cannonball Run, is going to have a beginning, middle, and end. Granted, in one of them you end up in Los Angeles, exhausted and smelling funny, and in the other, maybe you have a disappointing sandwich from Subway.   K: But there is - so, in a duology, you’re not breaking this up into three pieces, you're taking something that is three segments and doing it in two. This is why they’re hard to write, because  where does the “middle” of the story go? There’s some different schools of thought on this. One of the less popular, if you will, is that the first book of a duology is actually setting up the main story of the second. I don’t buy this. [chuckles] I don’t go along with that because -   R: Yeah, ‘cause that’s what you were sort of saying the trilogy does.   K: Exactly, yes. But also because it’s only two books, you've gotta get going here a little bit. You can’t make the reader think that they just read however many hundred pages of world building. The middle of a duology, in my estimation, should be at the of the first book. This is where everything should really pick up, and the plot and the stakes should be clear. If you finish the first book in a duology and do not have clear, compelling stakes, motivation, and reasoning behind the characters and what they were doing, that’s probably not a good place to end the duology. And if you’re going “well I don't get to that until this point,” maybe you don’t have a duology. Maybe you have a single book and it’s really long and you’ve gotta trim some stuff down.   R [laughing]: I thought you were gonna say “maybe you have a trilogy” and I was like wait a minute!   K [laughing]: No, no.   R: I feel like I’m stuck in an infinite loop!   K: No, but at that point, you may have a single book. And this is hard to - it’s hard to make that distinction of: “Is this a standalone single book or is this a duology?” So, what might make something a duology, why might you want to write a duology rather than a single book?   R: This is sort of what you're describing to me is that I’ve got like a 225,000 word story -   K: Mhm.   R: - and there are, as you described, as a failpoint in choosing where to split them, that there’s a lot of world building.   K: Yes.   R: So what you seem to be describing to me is a book where the author really takes their time developing a world and developing concepts and digging deep into whatever the story elements are.   K: Yes, nailed it.   R: So where I break that is, I assume, where a smaller plot point that maybe had some big stakes is resolved but the overall story is not resolved.   K: I’ll give you the opposite of that, what about a point at which it’s escalated?   R: Well, of course by solving a thing, you’ve fucked up and made it worse.   K: [laughing]   K: Of course, of course.   R: Of course, so that’s - that’s the solve point, is that you didn't solve anything by completing the action you thought was going to solve things. K: Yeah, so duologies have this weird balancing act where you can't backload the end of the first book and you can't front load the beginning of the second. The way these kind of work, and you have to remember that coming at this from the perspective of a reader, there are absolutely very successful books that the next in a series picks up and it’s just chaos and you get thrown right back into it. But frequently you've gotta build the story up again, you’ve gotta ease the reader back into what was going on, remind them of what was happening here, and then, typically reassess and recenter your story and characters. Because at the end of the first book, something should have happened that’s gonna require that they do that.   K: So, duologies are really great for when authors wanna take their time and give a lot of attention and detail to characters, to worldbuilding, to story arcs, to history. It’s taking a long story and breaking it up into two. And so if you’re wondering: well how come there's like 700 page books in the world, why -   R [chuckling]: Right.    K: Yeah, “why isn’t everything just one really long book?” There’s a few answers for that. One is that some publishers are going: “No one is going to just pick up your 700 page book and read this. We need to break this up into two books.” But the other is that in some cases, those giant 700 page books, they’re really just one story. And even though I keep saying a duology is one story, you’re telling it in two parts. So they each have to have their own story elements to them.   R: So there’s an intermission, the curtain drops, you feel like that could have been a mini play but it’s not over yet, you know, let’s come back to see where that cliffhanger leads us.   K: An intermission’s actually a really good way to describe it. You know, think of most plays that you’ve seen or even old movies like Gone With the Wind where there was an intermission. The intermissions are not typically dead smack in the middle of the story.   R: No, when you come back the story has changed -   K: Yes.   R: - something has shifted. I think an example of this that everyone is probably fairly familiar with, at least from Spotify, is Act I vs. Act II of Hamilton.   K: Yes.   R: Very very different experiences. Act I is energy, it’s building up, it’s all this hope, and then Act II is all this grief, and all this loss, and all this settling, and rediscovering hope. It’s very -   K [overlapping]: I was gonna say the Phantom of the Opera.   R: Yeah.   K: Act I is very mysterious and almost enchanting and like wow, you know, look at this.   R: Mhm.   K: Act II of Phantom of the Opera, you come back and you’re like, oh this Phantom is dangerous.   R: Yeah.   K: The tone of everything has shifted to this sort of fanciful “oh yes haha the opera ghost, oh this is such a funny, silly little inconvenience” to “this guy’s gonna kill all of us.”   R: Yeah.   K: So there’s renewed sense of urgency, the stakes are much more clear -   R: Mhm.   K: - and there’s - R: There’s an immediate action that needs to happen in order to save someone’s life.   K [overlapping]: Yes. Exactly, yes, that’s what I was trying to articulate there.   [both laughing]   K: So that is another good component of a duology is, by the second part of the story, something should have shifted.   R: And you gotta act right away, there’s no time to open up your world and introduce characters and all that kind of stuff, you have to get going.   K: The best duologies I’ve read have such a distinct difference between the first and second book, with what I think of the characters and how they’re behaving. If you Google “duology” right now, the first thing that’s gonna come up is The Six of Crows.    R: Mhm.   K: Part of the reason for that is because the Netflix series Shadow and Bone is being released two days after we’re recording this, and they’re incorporating elements from the duology into the trilogy. So, search engine algorithms being what they are... but I read the books; I thoroughly enjoyed them. The first one is very much a heist book. The second one is as well, but the stakes of it have been escalated to the point that it’s “oh, it’s not just that we’re stealing this thing that we want, we are now having to get stuff to save, not only ourselves, but a lot of other people from suffering a terrible fate.”   R: Yeah. You said it was hard though, but then you said it was just “picking a good spot in your book to split it,” so why is that specifically hard?   K: I think, where that becomes hard, is if you don’t know what you have on your hands. If you have -   R [overlapping]: So it’s more in the determination of whether you should split it, or -   K: Yes.   R: - extend it or just publish as is.   K: Well, so there’s two components of this. First is identifying: do I have a duology vs a standalone book or a trilogy.    R: Mhm.   K: If you have a standalone book, and you’re like “well this is just gonna be long and that’s just how it’s gonna go,” then you write the book and that’s what it is. If you’re looking at this and going “I have a duology,” there’s something in there that is indicating to you that this is a duology rather than a standalone book. A lot of times that is that breaking point, so, sometimes finding the part where the first story should stop and the second should start isn’t that hard, but then actually digging down into it and making sure that you’re telling a compelling, engaging story in both parts, can be very difficult. Because you may say “oh this is the perfect part, the door has burst open, everybody’s gasped and we’re cutting it off there.” Is that the best place to end your story? Or do you go to the Pirates of the Caribbean route and reveal that it’s Captain Barbossa coming down the stairs at the end.   R: Mhm.   K: And intrigue the heck out of everybody else.   R: I feel like we could do a whole episode on reveals, so maybe we’ll -   K [laughing]: Yeah, maybe we will.   R: - just put a pin in that one ‘cause I wanna talk about that but let’s do that in another episode. Okay, so is that a matter of how much satisfaction you are willing to give your reader at the end of book one, versus just lopping it off where it is the most convenient between what is essentially the midpoint of an arc that can feel like a partial arc or a semi completed arc.   K: So I think with duologies, there’s a lot more leeway to, I don't wanna say mess with, but to play with -   R: [giggles] Be honest, we are messing with our readers. We are always messing with our readers.   K: [giggles] - to play with reader expectation because people who are reading a duology presumably understand that what they’re reading is part one of a story that’s gonna be told in two parts.    R: Do we know when we have a duology though? Is it made very clear when the first book is released? ‘Cause I don't feel like it is.   K: I think that’s a matter of advertising and publishing. Most duologies that I’ve come across, and by the way, this is very common now in publishing because they plan much farther ahead than they used to. The series are finite, you’re contracted for this much, so typically, before a trilogy or duology is actually released, the series already has a name, the books might say, you know, definitely in their description and Amazon and Barnes and Noble, if not on the book itself, book one of however many in the series or book one of the such and such duology, book two of the such and such trilogy.   R: I would say that there are as many new books on my shelf that do not indicate how big the series is going to be as there are that do.   K: Mmkay. But in Amazon -   R: In fact - well maybe in Amazon but you can only create series on Amazon when you have more than one book in it. You know what I mean?   K [overlapping]: Yes, yes.   R: So -   K: But in the description a lot of times it will say that, the cover copy could say that. Publishers sort of expect at this point that anybody who really enjoys a book or even things that they’re thinking of reading, they’re gonna go research it, and, if nothing else, the publisher will likely have something on their website or some description about how long the series is going to be.   R: You give the reader a lot of credit for researching a book.   K: When you go to pick up a book, and it’s clear that it’s a series, you don’t go and see how many books it’s gonna -   R: [overlapping] You think it’s clear that it’s a series, that’s the part I’m debating. I cannot tell you how many books I’ve picked up only to find out - I’ve got one right around here somewhere - I picked up this book -   K: [speech garbled through laughter]   R: Endgame by Anne Aguirre.   K: Yep.   R: “A Sirantha Jax novel” is all it said on the cover. To me, that did not indicate that this was the last book in a six book series. I read the last book first.    K: [laughing]   R: And I read it anyway even though I figured out within a few chapters that it was the last book in a series. But I have done this my entire life. You’d think that, after a few, I would learn. So what is it that does not indicate anywhere on here, that this is a long running series, this is book six in a series? I picked it up because of the cover art. That is always what I do.   K: [laughing]   R: And there was nothing on this to indicate it was book six out of six. That - it was called Endgame and I did not understand that it was endgame of the series.   K [laughing, overlapping]: Yeah, I’m starting - I’m starting to think that -   R: So you may be doubting me, but I’m just saying, I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, I would like to think.   K: [laughing]   R: But on a bookstore shelf, this was the only one there, the bookstore didn’t put out the other books next to it, you know? So why was I supposed to know that this was from a series? There’s literally nothing on here that says “by the way, you picked up a book that’s part of a series, you might wanna go check out book one.”    K: Well, I will say that’s bad marketing and bad work on the publisher’s part.   R: But I wasn’t exposed to the marketing, other than the cover. I was not exposed to the marketing, this was before I started writing and publishing. So -   K: But the cover is marketing.   R: No, I understand that. The cover is product design and marketing, just like the box for a microwave would be. So yes, this was supposed to be marked as book six. If I had seen “book six,” I might have looked for book one. But Ace Science Fiction, an imprint of Penguin, did not deign to make any sort of indication on the outside, presumably because they thought it was pretty clear because of course you’ve heard of Anne Aguirre and of course you have heard of the Sirantha Jax novels by then. But I hadn’t, so I picked up book six in a series and I read it without any backstory, and I really did feel rather dumped into a world that other people knew about.   K: How was it?   R: Um. It was fine.   K: So, here’s what -   R [overlapping]: Some things were not my mode but that’s okay.   K: [laughing]   R: It’s still in my shelf so it can’t be that bad.   K [laughing]: Okay, fair. Yeah, listen, the - how do you know that something is a duology, a trilogy, a what have you?   R: And is your publisher making the conscious choice to not indicate that?   K [overlapping]: That’s very possible-   R: - do they think they are indicating that, you might wanna run it by your grandma or -   K: Rekka.   R: - somebody who hasn’t -   K: [laughing]   R: picked up a book off a shelf apparently without ever failing to pick up the third book in a series.   K: You did tend to to do that quite a lot.   R: I did it a lot as a kid, I think - I picked up The Babysitter’s Club at book number twenty-four and I guarantee you that bookstore had all of them.   K: Wasn’t that all like, standalone stories, kind of, though?   R: Well they were procedural in that every book started with the main character’s POV introducing all of the babysitters in the club, and giving them some tidbit to characterize them that was also a little bit of backstory from one of the other episodes, and - I mean they really were episodes, they were not so much sequels as episodes - and then you’d go into the meat of the story, and everything would return to normal, there might be small developments and like, there was continuity through the books but the characters got older, they added new babysitters to the club, some left, you know, stuff happened and then it didn’t unhappen at the end of the book.  But even though, yes, any book would have been an entry point in the series, I guarantee you I just picked up a book from the middle of the long, very uniform looking line of Babysitter’s Club books, and this one was about a cat, so -   K: Aw, kitty. [giggles]   R: - I got that one. ‘cause Tigger ran away and was missing -   K: Aw :(   R: - so that was the first book I read out of that series! And then I read them a lot, this was my first experience with sequels, so it’s no wonder that I have no problem imagining that you would stick with a world forever and ever and ever and never write anything else. But I also read the rest out of order.   K: Yeah.   R: Like I had no respect for the concept of “oh! I should go back to the beginning and read forward,” that - I read number ten and then I’d read number eighteen, then I’d read number two; I just didn’t care. So it’s interesting to me, like, yes that was me at age twelve -   K: Well, also -   R: - that was very different from an adult reader, but as an adult reader obviously I have continued this. The Chanur saga, I think I read book two before I read book one, I didn’t care. Plus, if the book’s written well enough, you get introduced to it and you don’t lose anything for not reading the first one first in a series, an intentional series, but here we come back to the idea of duology; if you pick up book two in a duology, you have missed some shit.    K: Yeah, and I completely disagree with you, and this may just be -   R: [laughing] Of course you do.   K:  No, this may be just a compulsive thing on my end: I can’t not read a series from the beginning.   R: No, see, I am completely all about my organizational tics, but for whatever reason, growing up, reading books in order was not a big deal to me. And I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was not aware that if I asked the bookseller to get me book one because I was picking up book two and I wanted to start from the beginning, that I would have it pretty soon. Like, in my head, that would be -   K: Yeah.   R: - weeks and weeks and weeks of waiting. Plus, in my head, it probably cost more. Like I thought I would have to pay for shipping, I thought I would have to pay for a book that would, like he’d charge me twice as much just because I wanted it.   K: And see that’s just -   R: And also I would have to speak to a human and ask for something which I was very much not all in for, so.   K: And this just goes to show how funny and different we were as kids, because I remember there were book series that, I would go to the library and I would - this is, I’m about to demonstrate something about myself that I have kept secret - I’ve read all of the Wizard of Oz books.   R: Oh, cool! I always meant to.   K: And - they’re interesting. [chuckles] and my library didn’t have book seven, out of, like I think there’s like ten or twelve of them in the series, and I had to get it from my county’s huge central library, and my mom was like “well, just get book eight!” and I was like I can’t, I can’t do that, I will wait two weeks for that book to get here -   [both laughing]   K: But something like - okay, well, getting back on track [chuckles] here, something like The Babysitter’s Club, as you said, each book - the reason the POV character is introducing everyone is there’s a lot of books in this series. The Boxcar Children was like that; the first one is about a group of relatively young children running away from some abusive family member and deciding to live in an abandoned boxcar in the forest, and then eventually their wealthy grandfather finds them, and then every other book is about them solving mysteries [laughing].   R: Oh! Okay.   K: The first book is like a weird survivalist book and then every other one is just them [through laughter] travelling with their grandfather and solving mysteries.   R: At least the continuity is intact.   K: But with duologies, we’re gonna assume that this is a known duology - and I couldn't find any example of this, I swear I did look - a duology that started out intentionally a duology but then became a trilogy after book one was published. I couldn’t find any examples of it, I’m sure it’s happened but, in theory, especially in publishing and especially with contracts being what they are now, you’re going to have - especially for a duology - a contractual set of the books that are going to be in it, the two books. You may even have some specifics in there about book one: this stuff has to happen, book two: this stuff has to happen. Publishers are a lot more hands on with these kinda things now, because before it was just like “cool, you got another one? cool, you got another one? Alright, let’s get the next tale of the otherworldly alien investigator who came to Earth to find the stolen gem of her people but solves mysteries along the way.”    K: So, with a duology, and with where the middle of this is, and what you can play with with reader expectations. I would say you absolutely have a little more leeway. “What if they don’t know it’s a duology?” Well, that's on the reader. I don’t - there’s no good answer -   R: Or is it on the publisher and their marketing department? [laughing]   K: Or that. The thing is that you could stick right on the cover: Book One of the, you know, We Make Books Duology. Maybe someone doesn’t read it, there’s no way to make everyone understand what this series is going to look like. I never buy a book before I know, you know - is it a trilogy that I’m getting myself into here, is it a duology, is this just gonna keep going on and on forever? I understand not everyone’s like that, most people are far less - what’s the word I’m looking for here - less fussy than I am. [laughter] Some people are just pure chaos like Rekka, who walk into bookstores, pull something off the shelf, and just go “look’s good!” [laughter]   R: I’m here for a good time!   [both laughing]   R: Look, I’ve found a lot of books I liked that way.   K: Yeah! No, that’s great.   R: Mhm.   K: But I remember going to Barnes and Noble back when I was in high school and college and we used to hang out there, and they would always have the table of the $5 books -   R: Mhm.   K: If they didn’t have books one and two and this was just book three, I wasn’t gonna pick it up and read it because I needed to know how it got there [laughing]. I think with duologies, you definitely have a little bit more room to play with that because the understanding is that this is more like a first and second act. And the reader should understand that: “you’re being presented half of a story, the second half is coming.” And there’s a difference between having halves of a story versus having to present a whole coherent story like you have to when you get into trilogy mode. Because if you’re breaking up a story into three parts, the first part is going to be really dry if you’re just telling one long, giant story.    R: Yeah ‘cause that’s set up still, that’s just pure set up.   K: Yeah. Find a 700 page book. Go to page - what would it be? - 233 and, in that area, decide if you think that’s about a good place to end a first book that seems like a good story has been told. Now conversely, I would say that picking up a 700 page book and going in the middle could go either way. Depending how the story’s structured, maybe that is an interesting middle-halfway-stopping point. There’s a good chance that it’s not because standalone stories tend to be backloaded.   R: Right.   K: Most of the action, adventure, and intrigue, happens in the last third of the book.   R: I would even say -   K: Last quarter?   R: Last quarter of the book, yeah.   K: How do you know if you have a duology vs a trilogy vs a standalone book?   R: Someone tells you.   K: [laughing] You know what? Honestly, that might be the answer.   [both laughing]   K: That really might be the answer.   R: Please, someone tell me!   K: [laughing]   K: An agent, a publisher, a good friend who reads your stuff might say: “This isn’t a standalone story, this is two books.” You know, with a trilogy it’s a little easier. Are you having trouble filling the middle book? Are you having trouble figuring out what’s gonna happen in book two, and are you just coming up with stuff because you need to create -   R: A third book, yeah.   K: - about 300 pages of content so that you can get to the third book? That’s a good indication that maybe you don’t have a trilogy, maybe you have a duology. For a standalone book, it gets a little harder. One is length. There aren’t a lot of 700 page books published anymore and, depending on the genre you’re writing in, there might be none of them. Fantasy tends to have a little bit more tolerance for that kind of length -   R: We wouldn’t have the phrase “doorstopper” in our current lingo if they weren’t really happening anymore. I think they are still happening. Like you have Jenn Lyons.   K: Yep.   R: Jenn Lyons writes some big books and there’s like, five of them [giggles] in a single series.   K: But you brought up a very interesting point: why we have those doorstopper books. Because, for a publisher - first of all, a duology however many years ago, even a decade ago, that was not a very common thing.   R: Mhm.   K: But if you had a long story, and especially if the publisher was uncertain about it, it was cheaper and less of a risk for them to just do a giant run of one big book, rather than two smaller or three smaller ones.   R: Okay. Because you lose readers as you go further down the series.   K: Well you lose readers, but there’s also overhead.   R: Right.   K: It’s cheaper to publish one giant book than it is to publish two smaller ones.   R: Right because you need cover artists, you pay the printer for each one of those sets, you print a minimum quantity for each of those, yeah. No, I’m not arguing that with you, I’m just saying like -   K: Yeah.   R: - one of the considerations is also to be: how will you be able to earn that back if you lose 20% of the readers each sequel down the line.   K: Yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of factors in why publishers might say, “nope, this is just gonna be one giant book.”   R: No, there’s one factor: it’s money.   [both laughing]   K: There’s a lot of factors that go into the money factor. [laughing]   R: The accountant is taking many things into consideration.   K: Yeah [laughing]. Touché, Rekka.   R: Mhm.   K: But, if you’re writing this story and there is a lot of stuff happening in the first half of the book that is then still not resolved when you’re getting towards the end, you might have a duology on your hands. Now granted, you may be like: “Oh well it’s only 180,000 words.” Well, yeah, maybe you gotta write a little more and flesh this out a bit. The times that I see books where I tell myself this should have been a duology - or authors that I’ve spoken to - are when I'm having trouble keeping track of everything that’s going on because you’re packing too much into this. The best case for a duology is when the reader is feeling like they’re being bombarded with information without proper time to absorb it and apply it to the story.   R: So are you squeezing everything into one side or the other of the fold which is the tear that becomes the intermission in your duology.   [both laughing]   K: Yes, exactly.   R: That’s the official term for it.   K: Yeah, and look, there’s - thankfully in publishing, there’s no standards, there’s no ‘we always do it this way’, ‘if you have this then it’s this,’ no one is going to go: “Sorry Random House, you’re not allowed to publish a 700 page book.” They can publish whatever they want, so if they - R: I mean there is a point at which the book is structurally unsound because it’s more spine than cover.   K: [laughing] Yes, alright, fair, fair.   K: You have leeway, and publishers have leeway for this, and really, there is no correct answer except: what serves the story best? How is this best told? How are you best engaging the reader? In some cases - I’ll use The Six of Crows as an example. I don't think that book works if you take the two halves of that, smoosh it together, do a little creative bridging in the middle, and just present it as one giant book. It doesn’t work. The tone shift between the two is so important that there’s intermission and that you come back and you’re like: “Oh boy, what’s gonna happen now?”   R: Okay, so is that - do you think that’s a critical part of it? Do you have to do that, or you think it just happens naturally because you’re taking a break from one story and coming back with the second piece?   K: I think it tends to happen naturally but, at the same time, this is kind of going into what we were talking about last episode with book two of a trilogy which is: you can’t tell the same story all over again. So presumably at the end of book one, enough has happened to the characters and the story arc where things have changed. So, by virtue of that alone, book two is going to be different.   R: Right.   K: I’ll make the argument, in a trilogy the same thing’s gonna happen. The tones of the books as the progress should be getting more urgent or darker or more mysterious, hopeful, whatever you’re building towards -   R [overlapping]: Sort of like an adventurous story to a, like the fate of the world  -   K: Yeah.   R: - literally the fate of the souls of the world are at stake.   K: The stakes should be being escalated, the characters should be very clear in their motivations. The plot should be very clear cut at that point and there should be a clear point to which the characters, the objects, the McGuffins, the story is moving towards at that point. The end of book one, the reader should have a very good idea of what the objectives are of book two. Now if they work out that way or not, that’s up to the reader, you know, maybe throw a twist or a loop in there or something, and the plan never goes according to plan because plans shouldn’t go according to plans in books -   R: Right. Right.   K: But the reader should have an idea of what they’re in store for in book two. Even if it’s not how that ends up going, the characters should be telling them: “Okay, we've gotta do this.”   R: Mhm. Aaaaaand cut.   [both laughing]   R: “We’ve gotta do this, and we’ll see ya in a year.”   K: Well, you know, duologies tend to come out a little closer together because, as I mentioned, the overall story is frequently written at the same time. And then maybe - okay you’ve done a lot of work on the first book to get it published and now it’s time to do that, but a lot of times it’s written already, it exists -   R: Whereas they really throw writers out and to the wolves for their trilogy like, yeah, we’ve signed you up for a trilogy, how’s that coming? “Uhhh, I don’t really know how it’s gonna end? But it’s great?”   K: You also get all of these contradicting things of: don’t tell them you’ve written all three books already; no, tell them so they know that they’re done; okay, but we just really want book one to have a nice conclusive ending, so I’m gonna need you to rewrite the end of that and then retool the beginning of the first two and figure how that’s gonna fit into the third.   R: And you better hope that the first two sell well, or you don't get to see the third.   K: Writing’s hard.   R: Yeah, so that’s a big part of it though, I never considered that when you sign a duology, you might have already talked to the publisher about where the pair of books is going to go.   K: Yeah, nobody writes a duology with the understanding of: “You need to have a nice neat ending for book one. [laughing] We’ll see how that -” I shouldn't say no one, I’m sure it’s happened. But I would argue in that case that that’s not really a true duology; that’s more of a couple standalone books.   R: So a short sequel run -   K: Yes.   R: - of a single world.    K: Yeah, exactly.   R: So, going back to your definitions then.   [happy go lucky ukelele music]  Rekka: [sing-song] Definitions!    Rekka: And listeners, Kaelyn doesn’t know what I did with that, so don’t tell her. So I think we need to reset our definition because you were defining it earlier in the episode and, to a degree, it felt like you were defining it as a single story divided in two pieces, and then later you said it was not a duology if it’s not a single story, but then, kind of maybe it is? I’m a little confused, so start over.   Kaelyn: SO definitions of duologies and trilogies. The actual definition of them is: “however many stories - two, three, four - of related work in a group.” So this might be the same story, the same world, the same characters. What they typically do is they say: “If you’ve written three books, they’re all about an alien investigator but they’re all individual stories” - Alien Investigator Trilogy. Duology, same thing. Technically any three books or any two books or four books, or whatever you wanna call it, is a “that.” Now, at a certain point - and I don’t know where this point is - I think you stop applying the duo- tri- quad- etc. to it and it just becomes a series. Now, from my side, what really defines a duology or a trilogy is the intent of the overarching story plot. That you didn’t just write three books because you had three stories in you so it ended up being a trilogy. You didn’t just come up with two stories and now it’s a duology.   K: There’s some - I won’t say argument about this, but I think it’s something that we see more in publishing now, that if you're contracted for a trilogy, the presumption is going to be that the trilogy is three books explaining a single story. It’s a single story arc. It may take a long time to get there, but -   R: Mhm.   K: - if they’re signing you up for three books that’s in the same world but not in the same story arc, that’s a three book contract, that’s not a trilogy contract. R: Okay, fair.   K: So that’s the distinction I would make. That said, by broad definition, duologies - trilogies, we’re just obsessed with the number three?   R: It’s a nice balanced number, you know?   K: Yeah. Three and seven. But I think this goes back to the ease of the beginning, middle and end. And that’s where I think trilogies and duologies really shine through is this intentional story of : It’s gonna take me this long to do it versus just writing books and however many you end up with, adding that number label to it. I would say, something like a duology contract vs a two book contract, and I don’t know that I’ve ever really heard of two book contracts unless [laughing] it’s a duology.   R: But I have seen a lot of contract announcements, book sale announcements lately that said:  “So-and-So’s Title plus an unnamed future book.”   K: Yes, but those would likely be standalone books.   R: Right, but it’s still a two book contract.   K: Okay, fair.   R: As opposed to just saying future works -   K: Yes. [laughing]   R: You know what I mean?   K: Yeah. And so by the way, what we’re talking about here - and I know we’ve touched on this in previous episodes, specifically the contract ones - a lot of times if you sign on with, sometimes an agent, usually a publishing house and they really like what you have and think you have the potential to grow a fanbase, they’re gonna try to lock you down. So they’re gonna say: “Cool, you’re gonna write a trilogy and three books to be named later.” It’s like signing athletes to multi-year contracts, a lot of times you have to take a chance on somebody after college or, sometimes in the NBA, right out of high school. You don’t know how they’re gonna perform, they’re gonna need training, they’re gonna need help. So you have to put the time and investment into them and you wanna make sure that if they turn out to be really good they’re not just gonna go “Hey thanks but I’m gonna go to New York because they’re gonna pay me twice as much as you did.”    R: Right, right, now that you’ve proven yourself. Now it’s good if you get a multi book contract from a single publisher and maybe your debut launch isn’t as strong as you hoped, and it takes two books to kinda gain some traction. That’s good for the author but -   K: Yep.   R: Like we said, if the other team would have paid you twice as much, now you’re stuck selling your book for debut prices. Which, okay yes, we’ve all heard about the debut windfalls, but debut authors don’t typically make a whole lot of money.   K: [overlapping] Yeah, there’s a reason you hear about them, it’s because they’re a big deal.   R: Yeah, it’s ‘cause they’re outliers -    K: [laughing]   R: - much like all things we make a big fuss over, ‘cause we love a rags to riches story.   K: Yeah, so that’s why my clunky - and this is personal, sort of clunky definition of this - but I would say that that is certainly the trend of where you’re seeing these definitions in publishing is: if  you’re signed on for a trilogy, the understanding is that it’s going to be a three book story arc, if it’s a duology, it’s gonna be two.    K: When Rekka and I are finished here, I’m going to go sit down, pour myself a glass of wine, and finally try to finish the fourth book of The Ember and the Ashes quadrilogy. That’s one that I really thought was a trilogy, and I don’t know what happened there, I don’t know if it changed and they were like -   R: Aha!   K:  - “ah we’ve got more story to tell here” -   R: They got you, too. [giggles]   K: Yeah, they did get me on that one and I had to wait for quite a while for that book to come out and I just, I need to sit down and get into it, you know? [laughing]   R: Alright, well let’s wrap it up. What the heck are we talking about when we say it’s harder? Did we give concrete advice on how to tell? And you can say, like, yes, I feel like I did.   K: I feel like I did and I think I didn’t because sometimes, as you mentioned, someone else is gonna have to tell you. I think it’s easier to tell if you’re working on a trilogy that, maybe it’s a duology. Because I think when you’re hitting a wall with the trilogy, trying to come up with ways to fill the middle, that’s a good indication that you actually have a duology.    R: And now that’s gonna be harder to write because you said so.   K: [laughing] Yes.   R: Congratulations, you just leveled up.   [both laughing]   R: You had a hard time filling a middle book, now you’re gonna somehow make it worse by trying to fit everything across the divide of an intermission between two books.   K: [laughing] Yeah and, to go back to what I said -   R: So you’re welcome.   [both laughing]   K: To go back to what I said about the standalone, I think a good indication there that you may have a duology on your hands, is if you feel like you’re sprinting through information, and you’re feeling like you’re having to take things out to stay within whatever you consider to be a reasonable word count. If you feel like there’s more story there - and writers, I know you always feel like there’s more story there - if you feel like you can’t tell the story and that it’s going to be confusing, or that it’s going to lack context or information or character development or anything, that’s a good indication that you might have a duology. Because what that’s indicating is that you have a lot to show the reader, and duologies give you great room to do that.   R: So here's a thought I just had.    K: Uh oh.   R: You mentioned word count.   K: Yeah.   R: So if you’re drafting, you don't know how many words you’re gonna end up with necessarily. Is this a decision you make during revisions?   K: Listen, there’s no definitive “this is a duology” time.   R: [giggles]   K: No one’s gonna bring you into a room, put the Sorting Hat on you and go: “Duology!” [laughing]   R: So it’s not going to suddenly smack you in the head.   K: Some people absolutely set out to write duologies. They say: “I have a story that I am gonna tell in two parts.” Some people draft the whole story and go: “This is too long for a single story, or this is too short for a trilogy, maybe I have a duology.” I feel like with duologies, unless you set out to intentionally write one, you're going to have to figure it out organically somewhere along the writing process.    R: Here’s another thought.   K: You’re just full of these today.   R: Yeah, sorry about that. I will stop, next time I won't have a single one, I promise. We’ve been mentioning word count a lot as the moment where you realize you might have too much or too little, but could it also be story elements?   K: Absolutely.   R: In that, I could wrap up some of these plot elements in one book, but not the whole thing, and that there’s an equal, if not mathematically equal, number of plot elements that could wrap up if I kept going in a second book. I mean, basically, it’s all magic, right?   K: Yeah, absolutely. There’s no definitive answers here unfortunately, like so much of this. I hope if you’ve been listening to this podcast this whole time and you have come here for somebody telling you: this is how it always is, you figured out a while ago that you’re in the wrong spot.   [both laughing]   R: Or that you still have to trust our word. Just grab a big glass of wine and go read a book. It may or may not be the last in the series, we don’t know. Nobody knows!   K: We don’t know, nobody - what is even time by now? [laughing]   R: Alright, so duologies are hard, trilogies are also hard, standalone books are hard. Have I covered it?   K: Everything’s hard.    R: [overlapping] Got it. Okay, cool. We did it.   K: But they’re all hard for different reasons. [laughing]   R: Oh, now I get it. Okay.   K: Yeah. Yeah.   R: Now I get it, alright. So the point is: you write the story. Hopefully, either you know how many books you’re supposed to end up with and you can calculate out from there how you’re gonna write the story. Or you write the story and you break it up into the number of books it demands that it should be.   K: Exactly.   R: Or that your publisher demands that it should be. [chuckling]   K: My advice to people always is: write the story. Just write it. Then take a step back and see what you have.   R: [overlapping] Then do the math.    K: There’s no formula for this, there’s no ‘this must happen at this time.’ If I had astounding amount of money to just throw away at whatever, I swear I think I would hire people to select books from different genres and map out common elements of them and put them into some sort of excel spreadsheet where I could make a nice pivot table, and see where these common element points occur, and I guarantee you almost none of them would line up.   R: Okay, I know there’re people who would disagree, but we’ll have to have a debate episode sometime.   K: [laughing] Excellent, excellent.   R: So, wrapping it up, write a damn story. It’s gonna be hard enough to get it published anyway, don’t worry about it.   K: It’s gonna be hard enough just to write the thing!   [both laughing]   K: So just write it and then work from there!   R: [overlapping] Okay-   K: Tell the story you want to tell.   R: - so with that sage advice, I probably shouldn’t tell you that you can find us on twitter and Instagram @WMBCast and on Patreon.com/wmbcast, which you are definitely not gonna want to support after listening to this one.   K: [laughing]   R: But it would be helpful if you could leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and remember to subscribe using whatever podcast app you like. And we will see you in two weeks with another poorly formed episode discussion. Thanks everyone.   K [laughing]: Thanks everyone.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript  Coming Soon (probably late morning on Tuesday 4/13). If you stream through an app, you may need to check wmbcast.com to see the transcript once it is posted.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Titles referenced in this episode: Ken Follet  https://ken-follett.com/books/ WMB Episode 43 with Antoine Bandele The Martian by Andy Weir Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer Writing The Other Workshops and Resources Episode Transcript: Rekka (00:00): Welcome back to another episode of, we make books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. I am Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:11): I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And today... So today we're talking about the phrase, "write what you know," and how I dislike it. Rekka (00:22): Quite a bit. As it turns out. Kaelyn (00:24): I feel like it can be, without context as Rekka points out in this, a little bit of a cop out. A little bit of a, like, I don't know what to do here. Well, write what you know. Um, as a writing exercise, I think that's fantastic. But as a problem solving technique, I think it's lacking. Now, granted, as we point out, Rekka and I are coming from a genre fiction background, so we don't actually know a ton about aliens yet; we're working on it. So, yeah, I, um, I don't know. I'm not a big fan of the phrase, but, uh, we, you know, get into all different aspects of this. And then we spend a lot of time talking about, okay, well, how do you write what you don't know? And how do you know what you don't know? And if you don't know what you don't know, what do you do about that? Rekka (01:12): And do— and what if you don't know that you don't know anything, are you allowed to write? Kaelyn (01:16): Certainly hasn't stopped people. New Speaker (01:19): That's a, we didn't get into that. So, uh, here comes the music and we'll keep going on this. On the other side. New Speaker (01:40): I'm running out of cappuccino. Kaelyn (01:43): Sorry to hear that. Rekka (01:44): I'm getting very low. Kaelyn (01:45): So what happens when you've run out of cappuccino? New Speaker (01:48): I switch to water. Kaelyn (01:49): But how do you feel? Rekka (01:52): Um, let me tell you about it... In prose form? Were you trying to make that a segue? Kaelyn (02:00): Yes, I was. Rekka (02:00): I was not on the, uh, the wavelength of how that was exactly going to transition. Kaelyn (02:05): Well, that's because you're running out of cappuccino and you're caffeine deprived and your brain is not working at the, uh, super caffeinated level that you would like it to be. Rekka (02:13): Gotcha. Kaelyn (02:14): So if you were writing a character that was in desperate need of coffee... Rekka (02:18): I would know exactly what to write. Kaelyn (02:20): Yeah. So today, um, we're talking about the, uh, pervasive and very strange phrase, write what you know. And I say very strange, because everybody seems to have different opinions about what this means. And Rekka and I even have different opinions about what this means. Rekka (02:38): Well, the people who've said it to me have had different opinions about what it means. Um, sometimes it's somebody saying literally dig into your own life, and that's the only place where your inspiration or subject matter can come from. That kind of precludes the entire genre of science fiction and fantasy. Kaelyn (03:00): I don't like when people say that, because I think what ends up happening is you have a character or multiple characters that's experiences are limited to your own experiences. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to read a book that's just about me. I'm not interesting enough for that. Rekka (03:18): Writers already have to struggle to vary their characters enough so that you can identify them by their dialogue alone, for example. don't then tell that writer to rein it in and make the characters more alike by making them all like the author. Kaelyn (03:34): I think it's a little bit of a trap and a trick to tell people, write what you know. Rekka (03:40): Well, I know Star Wars. Can I write Star Wars? Kaelyn (03:43): Absolutely. Rekka (03:44): Okay, cool. All right. I'm happy with that answer. I think we can end it there. Kaelyn (03:49): All right. Problem solved. End of episode. Excellent. Rekka (03:51): Everybody write Star Wars or your favorite thing. Kaelyn (03:54): Quick clarification. We're obviously talking about fiction here, because if this is a nonfiction book, then you're doing research essentially. Um, or you're telling a narrative story that happened, presumably there's documentation to back up. Um, obviously Rekka and I work in genre fiction. You know, we tend to lean a little more towards the science fiction and fantasy side of things here, but I think this applies to characters and stories across the board. Although we will get a little, as we get, dig a little more into this, we'll get a little into things that are unique to science fiction and fantasy. And in this regard, I think though, that saying write what you know, and limiting yourself to your own experiences— I mean, I don't have that exciting a life ... if I'm limit— If I'm writing a book, and we limit it to my own experiences, it's going to be a lot of pizza. Beer, Mets games, pizza, hockey, a lot of documentaries. Rekka (04:56): Makeup styling? Kaelyn (04:58): Yeah. A lot of makeup. So, I mean, do you want to read 80,000 words about that? Cause I don't. Rekka (05:04): So you don't like the minutiae of write what you know. Kaelyn (05:09): No. Rekka (05:12): So allow me to talk about the minutia for a minute. This is the knowledge you have that sinks the reader more deeply into the character at any given time, even though it is what you know about a situation, it's what you know about being deep in that situation as a human being in that space. And even though sometimes we write aliens, we still occasionally need to feel like humans in a space, uh, to connect with our readers who are, in theory, human. So in the case of the cappuccino, because one example is probably as good as another. If you know what it's like to be busy and reach for your cappuccino and realize you drank the whole thing without appreciating it, because you were so distracted by whatever you were focused on. Or, you know the feeling of looking into the bottom of your cup and seeing just that little bit that sinks into the depression formed by the curve of the bottom. And you still have a headache and you still need coffee, except it was a cappuccino and you just spent $5 on your coffee instead of a proper $2. And now you can't go get another one. Um, the feeling of realizing that it's time to switch to water and you didn't really want to drink water because it's cold and you wanted to be cozy and you're in a bad mood and you just wanted your favorite cozy drink. Um, these are all little details that you can apply to a scene that doesn't have to be cappuccino. Uh, you know, if you're relating your cappuccino experience to your science fiction character's favorite beverage that they drink in the morning could be raktajino, could be caff. The characters who can't live without it. Uh, there's also the characters who can't live without their coffee, but only on a chemical level. They actually don't like the flavor and they drink it as fast as they can. These are different kinds of relationships that people can have with something. And so you are writing what you know, and you know it, but it may not be universal. And these are very micro, visceral things that people can generally relate to. Because even if people don't like coffee, they might love tea and they know what it feels like to not have their tea in the morning. Um, or they just know what it's like to not have that piece of their routine, or for the piece of their routine that they hold sacred to be forgotten because something else is going on. So these are all things that can draw your reader in because they create a more relatable experience. And you don't need to have a degree in coffee roasting to understand how this works. You don't need to look, on the internet, what other people say about drinking coffee? Um, if it's not coffee, you know, you don't want to talk about coffee? Talk about your favorite pillow. Talk about your favorite sweater, your slippers. Write about these little things that matter. Um, write about what it's like to be sad, and then have the weather does change and the sky opens up on you, and now you're sad and soaking wet. Like these are all things that readers can relate to, even if they can't relate to your science fiction scenario or your fantasy world. And that's how you write what you know on a micro level. Kaelyn (09:01): It's useful. You're writing something and the character's exhausted, and they've just run out of cappuccino. Rekka (09:06): I literally did. Just so you know, I literally just ran out of cappuccino Kaelyn (09:11): And boy, do you know what that feels like. Rekka (09:13): I do. Kaelyn (09:14): That said I'd like to get a little bit more to a macro level. Do you have any other, any other thoughts? Rekka (09:21): Um, I'm trying not to cry. I'm in that moment where the cappuccino is gone. So continue go to your macro level. Cause I'm, I'm still here in the micro and I'm suffering. So pull me out of it. Take me with you. Kaelyn (09:33): So on the macro level, this is what I kind of call the research area. Now, people who are like true, write what you know people: if you're not a doctor, you have no business writing, anything that has to do with being a doctor. If you are not an astrophysicist, you should not be writing anything that takes place in space. This is nonsense. There are not a lot of astrophysicists in the world, so we don't get to have all of the astrophysicists writing perfectly correct science fiction. Limiting people to writing only what they know is going to produce a very limited amount of books that could end up being very dry. Kaelyn (10:14): This kind of then branches into, okay, well, you have to do research on the things that you don't know about. Let's start with research and how much of it you do and where you get it from. And then we're going to move into how you apply this to your writing and the worlds that you're creating and the characters that are living there. The research all depends on what you're researching. You know, if you're writing historical fiction, you better be really well-versed in what was going on in history at that location at that time. You better have some primary sources from people who were there. Uh, you'd better be really clear about, you know, the, um, you know, the location, the political environment of the time, the class of the—you know, let's say it's about a family—their social class, and you'd better know what the important things that you need to identify with them are like, for instance, if you're writing about somebody, um, living in reformation era England, you'd better know what was going on between the Protestants and Catholics. And you'd better say which one this person is. Rekka (11:23): That's why I write secondary world fantasy. Kaelyn (11:26): Yes. Exactly. So in some cases like that, you know, like if you're writing fiction that is set, you know, in, in our world at a different time period or, um, a different place, you need to do research to, to find out what that time or that place or that people are like. And you need to do it, not only just to build a compelling character, but to be accurate. Because if this is an area where, if you're setting something, you know, in our quote-unquote reality, you gotta be accurate there otherwise... Well, one, I don't think anyone's really gonna publish it, but two, it's not going to go over well when it's published, it's not something that a lot of readers and reviewers in the community have. Rekka (12:15): patience for. Kaelyn (12:16): Yeah, exactly. The example I always use is Ken Follet books. Uh, Ken Follet writes these thousand page tomes of meticulously researched stories. One of his series is about a specific family through various generations. And then the other is about a town in, uh, the high middle ages in England. And my God, the research this guy did into—I think it was like 12th century—English stone masonry techniques. And then, uh, the wool industry open— it, you know, like, uh, how they died and all of this stuff. And you know what, no one can poke holes in that guy's research cause, Oh my God, did he do his research! But he still wrote really compelling characters. And you know what? He didn't write what he knows, because he's not a 12th century peasant from England. He has no context for the series. Rekka (13:14): At least no one has found his time machine yet. Kaelyn (13:16): Yes. Yes. So there are certain scenarios in which, you know, you can't write what you know, you just have to do the research. Rekka (13:26): But there's also, you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes you're just going to get it wrong. Kaelyn (13:33): Yes, definitely. There are some instances of, "we don't really know, so I'm going to speculate or I'm going to make something up here" and you know, then sometimes, maybe a decade later there's a new archeological discovery and that thing that you made up, wow. That was exactly wrong. New Speaker (13:48): Yeah. Or exactly right. New Speaker (13:50): I was going to say, it'd be weirder if it was right. Then, you know, you have the Dan Browns of the world who take some theories and present them as fact and just really run with it. And sure, it makes for compelling reading and an interesting story and everything, but it's not correct. Rekka (14:08): And not going to hold up to much scrutiny. Kaelyn (14:10): Yeah. Rekka (14:10): Look, you're not there because you think you can take a college course in this. Kaelyn (14:15): Yeah. Rekka (14:15): I hope. Kaelyn (14:17): So. You know, historical fiction, obviously you really need to have all your ducks in a row, but we're talking about some different kinds of fiction here. So let's just talk about, you know, maybe not people set in earth. Rekka (14:29): Okay. Kaelyn (14:30): I live in New York city. There are a lot of books and movies and stuff set in New York city. One of my favorite things about when I'm watching something set in New York and there's a chase scene through Manhattan and I'm watching the famous locations that they're running by and none of these are close together. This person ran a mile and a half uptown, to turn around, run two miles the opposite direction, and now is somehow in New Jersey. Kaelyn (14:59): And so if you're, you know, even if you're just writing a, you know, a fiction story that is like, again, I'll use New York as an example, set in New York city and you say, "Oh yes, my, um, character lives all the way out in, um, you know, Flushings Queens in a giant 200 story, you know, whatever building," okay, well, that's not a thing that exists. If they're going to, you know, have certain places and settings and expectations of stuff that they should be doing based on that character, you need to be familiar with and you need to research these things. Rekka (15:36): Yeah. Your New York character is not going to hop in the car and go to the grocery store. Kaelyn (15:41): And this is ridiculous, but also like, just get out of map and look up the subway stations. If you're going to make it, like, if you're going to be specific, like, Oh, they got on the 1 Train and went to Queens. No, they'd didn't. The 1 Train doesn't go to Queens. If you're not sure, just say they got on the subway. Rekka (15:58): They definitely have maps of New York that you can reference. Kaelyn (16:04): Yes. Rekka (16:04): I think there's a danger of writing what you looked up, as opposed to writing what you know and understand. Kaelyn (16:14): If you remember, uh, you know, quite a few episodes back, we talked to Antoine Bandele was a, an episode about creating maps for your book. And I mentioned to him that I live in Astoria, Queens and he said, "Oh my God, I was just there. Uh, I needed to come and do research." And I said, "what do you need to do research on in Astoria?" He said, "I'm writing something set in New York. And one of the characters is Brazilian." And I said, "ah, and there is a small microcosm of Brazilian people in Astoria." And I mean, it's not even, you know, like, uh, Chinatown kind of concentration, but there is a small concentration of, uh, Brazilian shops and stores and restaurants and stuff. And he came out and had a look around because sometimes you just got to get out there and see it. Rekka (16:58): I mean, like, you will never understand, from a Wikipedia page, what it's like to walk through a place. And things are getting a little bit better with uh, Street View. Kaelyn (17:09): Uh, Google Maps can be a big help with. All of this is to say, "Oh, so what you're telling me, I should just write about my, you know, town that I grew up in, in Pennsylvania and nothing else?" No, absolutely not. I mean, but you also don't have to travel anywhere, but just be aware of, and try to do as much research on everything as you can, to get a level of authenticity there. Um, in this case, you know, you may not be capable of writing what you know, because you don't know what it's like to be in a particular place. Rekka (17:41): Yeah. Like don't write about rural Pennsylvania, if you are from Nebraska and you've never been to Pennsylvania and you don't feel like anything up about it. Kaelyn (17:50): Especially if you live in rural Nebraska, because then you could just write it there. Rekka (17:55): If you're writing a small town, why not pick the small town that you know, or at least a stand-in that's based on the town you know. Because then you're less likely to get the details wrong. So if you're writing about Grant's Pass, Oregon, but you've never been there and you're from New Jersey, do you honestly know what it feels like to be in Grant's Pass, Oregon, maybe write about your small town in New Jersey or, you know, put a little effort into it until you do know it and then you can write it. Kaelyn (18:27): Yeah. So, and this is, you know, we're still right now in the realm of things that actually exist in the world. They are, that's a lot easier to decide what you do and do not know. Um, once we get into the realm, Rekka and I operate in, science fiction and fantasy, where you're having to invent things, I think people get the, "well, it doesn't matter what the research is. I'm just going to make up whatever, whatever I want." Yes. However, your world and your characters still need to abide by rules. And unless you want to create an entire new set of rules from everything from biology to have gravity works, then presumably you're going to be carrying over some of our real life applications of this into the book. Rekka (19:17): What do you say to me, who does write science fiction on planets that, you know, from which the characters have never heard of Earth? Like, do I get to break every rule? Kaelyn (19:30): No, of course not. Rekka (19:32): Which rules do I get to break? Please, I'm asking. Kaelyn (19:37): You get to break whatever rules you want, Rekka. You know that. Just you though, not everyone else. Just you. Rekka (19:43): Give the qualifier because people are going to be confused. Kaelyn (19:45): Yeah. The genuine answer is it depends. Because it also depends on how much work you want to be put into the book of explaining why this rule doesn't exist in this world. And genre is going to matter a lot here, hard military SciFi, the expectation there is that we're adhering to the basic tenants of physics as we understand them on earth right now. Fantasy, I think a lot of times, doesn't get too bogged down in this, unless it has a reason to. Everywhere you go, the gravity is the same. The air is presumably breathable, unless it's not for a specific reason. Um, science fiction has a little bit more to make up for there, you know, because we're setting it in like, yeah, it's, it's fake in terms of, you know, in, in the sense that the author has made something up. But you know, what if something's set on Alpha Centauri? Like, we do know that Alpha Centauri is a real place. And while we don't know the exact conditions there or what, you know, for certain is orbiting it, we can make some speculations. Now you can, you know, of course, write in "everything we knew was completely wrong!" So I think the way you've got to sort of approach this and we're going to, we're going to talk large scale and then we're gonna narrow down from here. Okay. What are you keeping? What are you getting rid of? Kaelyn (21:08): Always start from a position of everything that is true on earth and physics as we understand them on Earth, I can apply across the board here. Your reader is going to start from that understanding unless you tell them otherwise. Rekka (21:24): Their default is everything they think they know. Kaelyn (21:26): Yes. New Speaker (21:26): Which you can't control if they're wrong. But whatever they think they know, that's what they're going to apply as the default understanding. So if you're going to break a rule, redefine it as early as you possibly can to avoid confusion. Kaelyn (21:43): Yes. So if you're getting to the point where you have to start explaining things that, you know, we're, we're beyond what I think the average reader is going to understand, you've got to decide, "am I going to make something up or am I going to do the research and explain this within the context of what we understand in terms of, you know, physics and biology now?" So all this research I'm talking about, how do you do this? Well, there's no good answer to that. And sometimes the best way is to hope, you know somebody who knows a lot about this stuff. Rekka (22:20): Sometimes, um, I would say, wait until you learn something that excites you, and use that as the opportunity to dig deeper into that subject and research. And you don't know what you don't know. It's hard to even research something that you're completely unfamiliar with because you don't know the right keywords to even type in. Kaelyn (22:44): So a really good example of this is Andy Weir's book, The Martian. Andy Weir is very lucky because he is the son of a particle physicist and an electrical engineer. There's all of these physics components that come in. So we've got mechanical and electrical engineering, biology, physics, computer science, all wrapped up in this. Andy Weir is not a, not proficient in every single one of those things. He had to do a lot of research and talk to a lot of people. And he wrote in a scenario that technically doesn't exist. Because we don't know how all of this would really go on Mars, but we can speculate. Rekka (23:24): Yeah. And he studied orbital mechanics, astronomy, and like the history of space flight in order to make this as well-founded a story as he could. Kaelyn (23:35): So that's an excellent example of science fiction grounded in reality, even when these things don't actually exist and we're still going, "well, maybe on Mars, this is what it would be like." But it goes to show you what comes with this kind of hard work. Anyway, The Martian is an excellent movie, excellent book. Um, and it is an excellent example of how far good research can get you. Whether, you know, it's The Martian or Harry Potter or Ender's Game or something. All of these things have fantastical elements to them, but there's ways to rationalize them and to make it seem like something that could be feasible because you've established that's what this is. But you're not writing what you know. Rekka (24:20): Yeah. Kaelyn (24:21): You're learning. Rekka (24:21): Yeah. You're learning in order to better write a more convincing scenario. Kaelyn (24:26): Yes. In some cases the, you know, write what you know is you've got to come up with something and teach it to yourself. Rekka (24:35): Yeah. And sometimes you have to seek out other people who can tell you what you need to know that you don't know. Kaelyn (24:39): Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit. Let's say, um, you're writing something where there's a lot of biology involved for whatever reason. Human, alien, or otherwise. So what are you going to do here? Well, there's so much information on the internet and, you know, first of all, establishing what reputable sources are is very important, but you know, the American College of Physicians, uh, the Mayo Clinic, a lot of, you know, hospitals and research facilities, they have a lot of information online about these things. Um, the other really interesting thing is, uh, YouTube, there is a lot of interesting videos out there about "here's how this functions" and they're made by, you know, doctors, scientists, and reputable people. There's a lot of really good how-to videos out there. There's so much information out there. I think two of the biggest areas that, um, you know, where it's like writing what you don't know and not doing a great job of it, is probably, um, law related things and medical related things. Rekka (25:50): Yeah. And there are doctors who have written books to help you because they're sick of seeing you do it wrong. Kaelyn (25:54): Yeah. I remember a panel I went to at the, uh, Nebula Conference about death building. One of the panelists is an emergency room doctor. And you know, they're talking about there's tolerances that the human body is allowed to sustain in writing that in actuality would never happen. One of the examples he gave was like, Sean Bean's character in the first Lord Of The Rings movie, who's got like a thousand arrows sticking out of him, but he's still standing up and swinging a sword. Rekka (26:21): To be fair. He does die eventually. Kaelyn (26:24): He does. But as this doctor pointed out, he was like, "yeah, one arrow to the stomach is enough to make most people not be able to stand up." Rekka (26:32): But also he's Sean Bean. So that's what killed him. Not all those arrows. Kaelyn (26:37): That's very true. You know? So there's, there's a certain degree we're willing to accept there just because it's know it's stakes, it's intensity, it's, you know, trying to, you know, scare the reader a little bit. Um, if everybody in fantasy books and science fiction, really, any books got, uh, incapacitated the way they should from, you know, a basic— Rekka (27:02): "The way they should." Sorry, I'm getting punchy. We're super fragile. Who made us so brittle? So, so delicate. Kaelyn (27:12): Blow to the right, you know, area. Like I always laugh when I'm watching and there are these sword fights and like the people are whack at each other in the legs. And I'm like, "that's a shredded ACL." "That's that meniscus is gone." "That person doesn't have a knee anymore." Anyway, there's a level of tolerance we're allowed to have there, but that said, if somebody is getting cut in half and they survive, they'd better be living in a world where getting cut in half is part of the reproductive cycle or something, you know, they just become two smaller versions of, of that person. Although I will say in the same panel, I was listening to the, the doctors presenting, uh, give us an example of a guy who came into his ER in two different ambulances and survived. So... Rekka (27:59): On that note! Kaelyn (28:00): On that note, Rekka (28:02): What do you know, anyway? What does anybody really know? Kaelyn (28:06): You know, look, we've, we've all heard the stories of the fantastical and the extraordinary. But to kind of, you know, circle back to our original thoughts here, you know, of writing what you know, and writing what you don't know: research is very important. Um, limiting yourself to writing what you know—unless, you know, I dunno, maybe you've had a really interesting life. Maybe you've had a lot of things happen to you. You've done a lot of stuff. Um, then that's great. But you know, the other end of it is if you haven't, you're, and you want to write an interesting, compelling story, especially if it involves like fairies and leprechauns. I'm kidding. Those are real obviously. Rekka (28:48): Obviously. Kaelyn (28:49): You're going to have to do some research and you're going to have to come up with your world rules and parameters. And in the course of the research, identify what you decide you're going to keep versus what you're going to change. And then you have to explain that you're changing it. Rekka (29:07): I always come back to: the more detail you feel like you have to include to justify the things you're doing, possibly the more research you need to do so that you truly understand it. Kaelyn (29:20): I'll give you another really good example of this. And this is actually a nonfiction book that falls really interestingly into the write what you know category. John Krakauer's book Into Thin Air. It's about the 1996 Everest disaster. He got, according to his account, talked into coming on this Everest expedition. And it just so happened that while he was there, and this was in the May climbing season, this massive blizzard storm or what have you, struck the people as they were all trying to come back down the mountain and eight people died. This story, it's harrowing, it's terrifying, it's heartbreaking. And it makes you never want to go anywhere near Mount Everest. Rekka (30:11): I don't even want to read the book. Kaelyn (30:15): But the reason he went on this expedition was he was going to write an article about it for the magazine he worked for. And now he's writing a book about this terrible disaster that took place. So he's coming from a place where he's actually very knowledgeable about, mountaineering and know, you know, knew all of these people and knew how everything was supposed to go. And now he's got to do a bunch of research and collect information and accounts from different groups and stuff about why what happened happened. And he puts together a really interesting case and story about all different aspects of the, uh, culture surrounding, like, people trying to summit Mount Everest and, you know, the situation of like people who really don't have any business trying to climb Mount Everest and just paying a lot of money to guides to get them up there. There's all of this speculation that, um, one of the things that happened that made this so terrible apart from, you know, a blizzard on Mount Everest, was some kind of a pressure system came through and dropped the oxygen to nothing. So that's a nonfiction book where, you know, this guy was writing what—he set out to write what he knew, and then ended up having to incorporate a whole bunch of stuff he didn't know as well. Rekka (31:26): That is a very literal write what you know. We've already covered the micro writing, what, you know, in a very personal, um, tangible, you know, physical and mental sensation sort of way, to add realism to a scene. And that can create tension and, and, um, drama, uh, especially in like a, um, you know, third person limited perspective or first person perspective. But, uh, we've also covered researching to learn what you don't know so then you can write it. And we've covered writing what you don't know, because nobody knows it. Kaelyn (32:15): One thing I'd like to just point out quickly before we wrap up here, there is a difference between writing what you know, writing what you don't know, and writing something that isn't yours to tell. Rekka (32:28): Yeah. And we didn't go into that this time on purpose because that's a whole topic. Kaelyn (32:33): You know, saying that there's ways to degree search and gain experience is not the same as saying, "I am a straight white cis person. I am going to write about a gay black trans person, and I will just do a lot of research and that makes it okay." It doesn't. Don't do that. That is not your story to tell. Rekka (32:52): That is... Writing... Don't write what you think you know. Don't write what you think is hot, and just assuming you know enough about it. And when I say hot, I mean, popular, uh, will attract attention. Kaelyn (33:10): There's always ways to include diverse characters into your writing. But anytime, you know, you're really going like, "wow, I don't know anything about the type of character, this person, that I'm writing here." That's probably a good point to take a step back and say, "is this something I should be writing?" Rekka (33:33): If this person is nothing like me? Kaelyn (33:35): Yes. Rekka (33:36): In what ways are they not like me? And are those ways that I should not be attempting to explain to other people? Kaelyn (33:43): You know, like I said, this is a whole other episode. We're not going to, you know, go into this, but it was worth making the statement that it's one thing to research places, locations, history, physics, medical sciences, researching people, outside of historic context, to use as a character is probably a place where you should take a step back and decide whether or not that's something you should be writing. Rekka (34:12): Um, if you are looking for a resource on knowing when it's okay, you know, cause casual representation in books is good. So look for a series of lectures and of courses called Writing The Other. That's a fantastic resource. They cover all sorts of different marginalized identities. And, um, the courses are paid and they should be because this is someone's time and effort to educate you. Uh, so that would be the best resource I could think of. And if we were ever going to cover that topic, I would be bringing someone on from the Writing The Other courses in order to talk about it. So honestly, I'm just going to refer you to them. Kaelyn (34:53): For all of this, you know, saying like there's nothing stopping you from doing research and trying to learn and build here. There is a line where research does not matter anymore at that point. Rekka (35:04): Right. It's just not appropriate. Kaelyn (35:06): This will not ever be a situation in which you're writing what you know. Rekka (35:10): Yeah, exactly. Kaelyn (35:11): So, um, you know, on that note, that's, it, it turned into a little bit, I would call this writing what you know versus researching what you don't. Rekka (35:19): Right. Versus keeping your hands off what someone else knows. Kaelyn (35:23): Yeah, exactly. Um, look, you know, I have definitely, um, you know, in the course of my life, like when I was in grad school, I had people, you know, who would say like, "Hey, I, can you tell me about this historic thing? I need it as a point of reference for something," um, a lot of people who in specialized, you know, areas, professions, or educations or stuff are frequently very happy to talk to you about them. You know, this isn't to say that you can just inflict yourself on anyone and say, "tell me all about the human nervous system. I need to know about every ending." Rekka (35:57): Ideally you have something to offer them. Whether it's money or your own experience in a way that will help them. Kaelyn (36:04): Yeah. Or just let me take out to dinner. And if I can just bounce a few things off of you, if this is a friend of yours or something like that. Um, when we're able to go out to dinner again, don't take anyone out to dinner, right now. Rekka (36:14): Yeah. No, that's bad. Be a good person. Keep people protected. Kaelyn (36:18): Yes. So, you know, don't be afraid to try to reach out to actual human resources that are experts or have more knowledge about these things than you do. It never ceases to amaze me the hobbies that my friends have that mean they know all of this stuff that I can't believe they know a lot about. But yeah. I think, uh, I think that's a good place to end. Rekka (36:45): Okay, well, if we haven't hit all the marks or you still have questions, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @WMBcast, you can find us on Patreon at Patreon.com/WMBcast. Or you can even leave your question in a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. We would love if you would do that over there, because we want more reviews so that more people can find us and ask us more questions. So hopefully that answered some of your questions about this nebulous, strange advice that you hear so often. Kaelyn (37:17): It's just the worst advice. Rekka (37:20): I don't think that it's completely without merit. It's just not good without explanation. So, um, with context, it's, uh, a fun thing to consider and something to keep in mind. All right, we're done. I swear. We're done talking about it. We will talk to you in two weeks, hope you all have a lovely time. Stay safe, wear a mask, avoid other humans.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Tools Referenced in this episode: Grammarly ProWritingAid   Episode Transcript   Rekka (00:01): Welcome back to another episode of, we make books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R J Theodore. Kaelyn (00:10): I'm Kaelyn Considine. I'm the acquisition editor for Pu... Pu... Wait, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And we can edit that out. Rekka (00:20): Yeah. Is that a line edit? Kaelyn (00:24): Oh God. You know what? That's a good question. That, uh, I think that would be a line edit. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So today we're talking about editing. Um, I know it's something we've talked about before. I think we, we really were very focused on developmental edits. Rekka (00:40): Well, sure. Because that's your favorite, right? Kaelyn (00:43): Yeah. You know, there's, there's different components and different people you're going to encounter through the process of editing a book and they'll all want different things from you and be asking you to change different aspects of the book. So— Rekka (00:56): Oh, one thing we didn't say: that you are the author and your name goes on the cover. So all of these edits come from people who are hired because this is their specialty. However, this is your story. So it is up to you to stand by these edits. And if you don't feel comfortable standing by the edits, then you should not accept them. Kaelyn (01:22): Qualifier. I will have there: check your contract. Your book may have been accepted conditionally pending you making certain changes. So there's uh, there's contractual obligations for edits. But you know, as Rekka said, at the end of the day here, his name is on this. We talk a little bit at the end of the episode, about how, you know, people are, might yell at you online about things that you had absolutely no control over. So control the stuff that you can. Rekka (01:47): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So anyway, um, there are lots of kinds of edits and they are variably painful each in their own way. Kaelyn (01:56): Some are far more excruciating than others. Rekka (02:00): And on the other side of this lovely ditty, we will tell you about them. Kaelyn (02:17): ...that landing devices on Mars is becoming as routine as something like that can be, is, is very, is very cool. So yeah. Rekka (02:27): Yeah. Speaking of routine. How's that? Kaelyn (02:33): You've probably heard us say things like developmental edits, copy edits, line edits. And if you're going okay, well, what the heck is all of this art? Don't I just edit the book. No, you don't. Rekka (02:46): Sometimes you edit the book. Sometimes someone else edits the book, sometimes a third person edits the book. And sometimes you get a stack of pages and you hope that someone edited the book real well. Kaelyn (03:02): Yes. There's three main kinds of edits. You're going to come across while working on a book and then a fourth step in this order: developmental edits line edits and copy edit. Then after copy, edit, typically comes a proofreading. We're going to go through these step-by-step and instead of giving you definitions upfront, explain what they are as we're walking through them. So Rekka, as somebody who's gone through this process, what would you say your favorite part of all of these edits are? if you had to pick one of the three, what's your favorite? Rekka (03:36): Page proofs. Kaelyn (03:39): Really? Even as a writer? Rekka (03:40): Yeah. No, I mean, cause you're almost there. This is the point where you are just making sure that nothing weird happened in the process of getting this into a layout and you get to reread the book. You're in theory, looking at an immutable copy. So you can't keep fiddling with it. And all you're doing is checking to make sure that there's not like a weird space before a period, or something strange like suddenly you've got smart quotes and—. Kaelyn (04:17): Let's save that for when we get there. Rekka (04:19): That was the wrong answer, folks. Apparently I wasn't supposed to say that. I was supposed to say the dev edit is my favorite. Kaelyn (04:24): And that's because that's everybody's favorite because the dev edit— Rekka (04:28): No the dev edit means you have to tear out your heart and write it all over again. Kaelyn (04:33): The developmental edit though, is the part where you're still writing. Rekka (04:37): I'm not in this to write. I'm in this to have written. Kaelyn (04:43): Fair. Um, yeah. So the first thing you're going to hear about, you know, with the first one you're gonna encounter is developmental edits. Developmental edits are where it is what it sounds like you're still developing the story. Um, this is what's going to happen generally um, at any stage of this before your book is finalized, pretty much. So anytime you're getting feedback from anyone, be it a writing group, um, a friend, an agent and editor, uh, some random guy that you started talking to and told the story. Rekka (05:16): No, don't start talking to those guys. Kaelyn (05:19): That is, that's a developmental edit. There's obviously different levels of intricacy and sophistication to this. Um, if you're working with an agent, they'll probably give you some high level stuff, especially for the beginning of the book. If you're working with an editor, however, they're gonna be much tougher on you. This is the part where they're going to say, "okay, I like all of this. Here's the thing. Your magic system doesn't make any sense." Or "it seems to have some rules and then it's breaking them" or "the world-building is inconsistent" or "there's a plot hole here." Um, a lot of times you're going to start big, you know, like, all right, let's like, I've had authors where I'm like, ""I need you to send me a document of how magic works here. Or "I need you to send me a timeline of the events before this story because there's characters referencing things and they're contradicting each other. And I don't think it's a case of an unreliable narrator." Rekka (06:16): Unreliable author. Kaelyn (06:20): There's a lot of those. So your developmental edits are where you're finishing the big parts of the story where you're narrowing— you're nailing down, um, the rules of the world, the world, building the characters, addressing any plot holes. In some cases you may be making massive changes to the book. Sometimes it's not "this sentence contradicts something another person said," sometimes it's, "Hey, um, I don't think you need this character. They're really not doing much. Get rid of them." Rekka (06:54): Right. And in which case, all the threads of the story that have to change as a result. Kaelyn (07:01): Developmental edits can be, you know, for as much as they are probably the most fun, I guess, of the book, writing process. Rekka (07:10): That's a big question mark in your voice, there. Kaelyn (07:14): Well, they're the most fun for me certainly, but, um, you know, I think, uh, I would hope that people writing enjoy working on their books and look, it can, developmental edits can be like, they can be brutal. Um, a developmental edit can result in a significant overhaul of what you were writing. Now, this isn't to scare anyone because the thing is, if you're working with an editor at this point, they wouldn't have bought your book if they didn't like it and think there was something good in there. Rekka (07:46): Right. Kaelyn (07:47): So remember your editor just wants what's best for your book. You maybe not as much. Rekka (07:55): Well, what about for people who are self publishing? Kaelyn (07:58): So for people who are self publishing, you know, it depends on how you're doing this. Did you hire an editor? Maybe that's the person who's, uh, who's doing this. But if you're doing this on your own, hopefully your developmental edits have been more of the process of writing and refining your book, getting feedback, incorporating it into there. But that's where this is all coming from because somebody reading it and saying, "yeah, I like this" is different from somebody going, "okay, well you have this character, Laura. And she went into the bathroom and then we never heard from her again." Rekka (08:37): Look, this happens sometimes. Kaelyn (08:39): Sometimes people go into bathrooms and never come back out. Um, but that's, I mean, developmental edits is so broad compared to the rest of these because it's all of the work that gets your book to a point where it is quote-unquote done in terms of developing the story. You've stopped developing the story, everything after this now is grammar and syntax and prose and making sure the story is coherent and flows well. Um, Rekka, as someone who has gone through some pretty significant, uh, developmental edit overhauls... Rekka (09:21): Yeees? Kaelyn (09:21): How'd that feel? Rekka (09:23): Is 60% significant? Kaelyn (09:27): Oh, that's nothing. Rekka (09:27): What about when you do it twice? Kaelyn (09:29): Well, that's 120%. Rekka (09:31): Okay. So I've rewritten 120% of SALVAGE. Um, yeah, it's— look, it's funny because it's a lot of work, and I'm the type of person who will grind myself into the earth to get work done on a deadline, regardless of what that deadline's reasonable level is. Kaelyn (09:55): Well, now let me ask you this, because your books specifically, you know, especially as you got farther into the Peridot Shift series with various POVs and everything, when you change something, the, I imagine it's a bit of a butterfly effect. Rekka (10:12): Well. Kaelyn (10:14): Okay, let me rephrase that. I know it's a little bit of a butterfly effect. Rekka (10:16): No, but it even goes beyond that because the first revision was to add all the POVs. Kaelyn (10:22): Yes. Yeah, that's true. Rekka (10:23): Um, the, the first book was one single POV and I felt as though that was now a requirement of the series. Um, specifically an earlier editor that I contracted to help me revise FLOTSAM told me, "dump all these other POVs and just follow Talis." So that's what I thought I needed to do for book two, because that's what I had set up as an expectation for the reader, I felt. So it came as a shock when the publisher's editor that, um, I started working with on SALVAGE as a new editor, came back and said, "I think you could fix a lot of the issues you're having with this book, if you introduced new POVs." So you've seen that meme of like Cosmic Brain. Like that's what happened to me. I was like, "this is an option?? I can go in and add more POV's and show people more of the mindsets of the different people in the, in this world?" It was amazing. I was, I was pumped. I was ready to go. By adding other POVs I was able to go to where the action was happening and get the information to the reader without it having to pass third hand to my main characters. Kaelyn (11:55): You did a really significant overhaul, but then I'm sure that presented a challenge because after you overhauled and rewrote this book to include these other POVs, anytime you made a change, then you have to account for that. Rekka (12:10): Right? Because like, it was, most of my characters weren't even present, um, in the, between the two drafts. Kaelyn (12:16): It's not only, and this is, I mean, we could do a whole episode on this, but it's not only where Talis is, who she's with, and what she knows. You need to track these other characters, encountering other characters, other places, and gathering their own information that they may or may not be sharing with other people. So one change trickles down into all of these other characters and it's something you have to account for. Developmental edits, especially from a multiple POV book: It's a process. Rekka (12:44): It's probably where a lot of the, um, like the timeline inconsistencies happen that readers catch that no one else seems to during the process of getting it out into the world. Um, it's not that the writer was drafting in a flurry and forgot what they wrote. It's more that they drafted in a flurry, revised it themselves, send it off to somebody else. And then somebody else stuck their fingers in and said, "let's pull on these threads and see what happens." And then you have little details you forgot all about that you overlook even when you reread. Kaelyn (13:17): And this, by the way is the reason I am a big fan of having an outline. Rekka (13:21): Oh, but it's the little details. Kaelyn (13:23): There are books that I read that, you know, it's not even just the little details it's "this does not line up. This makes no sense." And in developmental edits, that's where you're supposed to catch things, but you know, a big secret here: uh, editors are people too. And sometimes we, you know, in all the course of all of these changes, miss everything. This is very much turns into, can't see the trees for the forest kind of situation. It's always good to have somebody who is not so in the weeds on this take a look at it, to be able to take a step back and point out, "hang on. That girl never came out of the bathroom." Rekka (13:58): Right. I know you're still worried about her. Kaelyn (14:00): I'm very worried about like, is she okay? Is she having a medical emergency? Was there a portal in there somewhere? What happened to her? So this is, this is making this sound scary and overwhelming. Developmental edits. I find are always the fun part where you really get to, you know, have somebody who's excited to talk to you about your book and you get to tell them all the details and you know, all the secrets and the nitty-gritty stuff going on here. So, um, I enjoy them, but you know, that's just me. I just get to torment people with them. Rekka (14:29): It is a very, very good thing to enjoy the teeny tiny details of your book. Both as the editor working on it and the writer creating it. Kaelyn (14:42): I find one of the most important tools for developmental edits, especially for books with a lot of characters or places is a timeline. Timeline of events before the book and timeline of the events during. I have had books that I've worked on where I've just gotten an Excel sheet to track which character is where at what time to make sure that we're not accidentally saying they were both in this town on the same day. Your editor is going to do a lot of work on this because your editor is going to be your sanity check here, to use the, uh, well, the developer term. Um, you know, does this make sense? Does this work? Is there something here that is very obvious that we're missing? Developmental edits are also where, you know, you're going to, besides all of these checking for problems, you're also going to flesh out characters, their arcs, their motivation, their stories. You're going to do some world-building as well. Probably. Um, again, some of it will be clarifying. Some of it might be like, "Hey, this is really interesting that you mentioned in passing. And later in the story, we need a new setting. Why don't you use this?" So developmental edits can seem a little like, "Oh my God, it's going to be all the mistakes. I'm going to have to rewrite everything." But they're also the time where you really get to have fun with your book. In my opinion. Rekka (16:08): I get really excited about developmental edits because someone has challenged me on something. For example, like how I handled my POVs or a detail of why my character does this, or suggests that, you know, a stake isn't high enough, or suggests that things are happening too conveniently, you know, dominos are falling in too straight of a line. And by being challenged on these things on a broad level, I tend to get all my gears really cranking and suddenly things that, you know, don't occur to me when I'm drafting on my own from, you know, building the outline on my own, coming up with the concepts and figuring out where the book is going on my own. Suddenly when you have another person reflecting back what your story is saying to them, it gets very exciting and I get very motivated, and inspired, to come up with new solutions that, um, address the concerns and probably do some other stuff too, that weren't even brought up. But like, you know, this is where suddenly like, "Oh, these two characters come together at the end and how perfect that they end up in the same spot and that just sets this up to happen...!" And those are the sorts of, um, it feels like serendipity when all your dev edits make the story you wanted to tell, come out of the story that you actually drafted. Kaelyn (17:55): Aww, Rekka, that was beautiful. Rekka (17:56): Thank you. Kaelyn (17:59): So, yeah. Dev edits: they're fun. You know what's not fun? Line edits. Yeah. So once your story's, you know, finished quote-unquote. And by that, I mean that the story exists, it's complete, everyone's happy with, you know, the plot, the character arcs, the timeline, everything going on. Rekka (18:20): I like how you say, you know, "once your story is finished, QUOTE-UNQUOTE..." Kaelyn (18:26): Yeah. You thought, you thought you were done here. Um, this is— so something that you notice in editing, as you continue down the chain here, the burden shifts more and more to the editor. So line edits are next. Line edits, you are probably still doing with your actual editor. This is probably still going to be the same person. A line edit is something that is addressing writing style, language use, um, combing the manuscript for obvious errors, like run-on sentences and redundancies, at a sentence and paragraph level. So this is where— and this is also typically, especially if you're, self-publishing where you do your read aloud. "Did I just use the same word three times in one sentence? I did." Rekka (19:13): You will not know it until you read that thing aloud. Kaelyn (19:17): Um, I did. You know why? Because there's only so many ways to say "rock." Rekka (19:21): Right. Well, sometimes you have a word that does not stand out when you use it three times in a sentence. Other times when that word is, you know, ostentatious, then you do hear it over and over and over again. Cause you just, when you're drafting or rewriting, you just like you get a groove somewhere in your brain and a word will stick in it and you'll end up using it over and over and over again until you clear that. Kaelyn (19:45): Yeah. So you're going line by line and looking at this now. You've got the broad stuff. Every step we take in the editing process, we're going through it with a finer and finer tooth comb. Um, you know, for developmental edits, everybody breaks these out different ways. You know, there's like, "okay, first, we're going to address this. Then we're going to do this. Then we're going to do this." Every book's different with, you know, how to address that. Line edits are much more standardized here. The read aloud is very helpful, especially if you're self publishing, but what you're doing here is you're going and looking for like repeated words, redundant sentences, unclear pronouns, you know, maybe there's like two men in a fight and you just keep saying, "he, he, he, he" it's like, "okay, well, who got stabbed here? Who's bleeding to death on the floor who, who died? I don't even know now." I like to not do line edits right after the developmental edit is finished because you, you become like unable to see things in the manuscript. But line edits are really important because what they're also going to come up with is this is a very, very strange thing, passages that just don't read well parts of the book that to a reader who hasn't been working on this for months are not going to make sense or are going to seem disjointed. And this could be something like a shift in tone or phrasing that is a really awkward. Um, this could be digressions in the narrative that sort of take away from the scene at hand, it could be pacing related. Now let's be clear. This is not the copy edit. We're going to get to that next. You are still going to have to do sentence-level work here where you may have to add, change, and remove things. This isn't like "change 'she' to 'Rekka.'" This is "rewrite this paragraph because the whole thing is very confusing. And I don't know who just died." Rekka (21:48): Right. Kaelyn (21:49): Um, I've gone through line edits where I've crossed out entire paragraphs and said, "I need you to condense this down to one sentence, one or two sentences for the pacing of this scene, because it's a fight and this is taking too long." Um, I've added notes where it's like, I mean, my, I think my most common line edit is "describe this more, expand on this." Rekka (22:13): Expand on this. Kaelyn (22:13): Expand on this. Expand on this. Rekka (22:15): Tell me more. Dive deeper. Kaelyn (22:17): Yeah or, you know, this is where a, an editor might say, "throw in a couple words here and tell us what they're thinking or how they're feeling, throw in a reaction." This is where you're checking to make sure everything is coherent and communicating what you want it to. Line edits are an incredibly time consuming process. Rekka (22:39): They do seem like they might be the worst. New Speaker (22:42): They're not my favorite. Um, I personally can't do them for more than an hour and a half to two hours at a time, or things start to wash off your back. And this is where you've gotta be really sharp on what you're looking at and making sure everything is, is making sense. Editors do line edits differently. In some cases I will, you know, when I do this, I put a note in there of, you know, for instance, "expand on this, tell me what this person is feeling at a reaction here." In some cases I will go in and just edit the sentence if it's a matter of, you know, flipping the, uh, the phrases in the sentence, or this sentence should come before this one. Now obviously, you know, all of these, are— none of this is being dictated to authors. If it's that way for a reason, we'll discuss it. Right. But this is the first time probably that you're going to get something back from an editor and have to go through an add and accept changes. Rekka (23:45): That's a whole new nightmare, if you haven't worked with track changes before. Kaelyn (23:49): If you are to the point where you're getting ready for a line out of it, and you've never done this before, maybe talk to your editor and sort of agree on how this is going to be done. There's different ways to track changes and you can always modify it. But, you know, it's just something to keep in mind. You know, developmental edits, you're going to be getting, you know, multiple passes of that. Some of it will probably be a letter then, you know, as you get farther, further into it, it'll be, you know, notes directly in the manuscript and that sort of thing. Line edits are when you're getting back a document that is marked up, that, you know, if it were a physical copy, it will have looked like someone's stabbed it to death because it's just going to be covered in red. There's no such thing as a manuscript that is so perfect it doesn't need line edits. Some of the best writers in the world have editors for a reason, because you need a fresh set of eyes on this. I definitely will. Sometimes when working on a manuscript, if I catch something really glaring right off the bat, you know, just take care of it right then and there. But the actual line edit pass is, it's a very lengthy process to do it well. Rekka (24:56): I can't even imagine attempting to do a line edit. How do you stay focused and not get swept up in looking at one aspect and forget what else is going on? Kaelyn (25:09): I think my record was 2000 changes in like a 90,000-word manuscript. That was changes, not additions and deletions. For the author, this is the first time where something like this can seem really overwhelming because you've got to sit down and go through all of this now, and now you've got to be clear and fresh on all of it. Um, and on top of that, then sometimes your editor is going to hand you something and just say, this paragraph doesn't work and it's unclear fix it. And you're going to go, "well, I'm the one that wrote it. How am I supposed to fix this? This seems clear to me." In that case, you know, you go talk to your editor and you work through it. This is another one where you'll have a couple of calls, probably, you know, minimum, a couple to get through the whole thing. That's line edits. It is definitely my least favorite of the edits. I will. I mean, really my side. I only do two, the developmental and the line. Um, I obviously definitely prefer developmental. Line edits are they're, they're hard, but obviously very, very important. Which brings us to our third step in the editing process and the last of our true quote-unquote edits. And this is the copy edit. Now the copy editor is probably a different person. Rekka (26:34): In an ideal world the copy editor is a different person, because you want a new set of eyes on this. Kaelyn (26:40): Copy Editors are magical creatures who can at a speed incomprehensible to the mortal brain, go through a document and check for things like spelling, grammar, punctuation, syntax. Rekka (26:55): Just a mistaken word. Like you typed the wrong word or, or a homonym. Kaelyn (26:59): Yeah. Incorrect hyphenations, inconsistent uh numerical formatting, inconsistent formatting in general. Weird fonts. Weird capitalizations. Any factually incorrect statement that you may have made. A good copy editor will catch things that should have been caught in line edit that weren't for whatever reason. Copy editors are the people that go through and say, "this is correct English." Now, if you're writing nonfiction, this is more straightforward. There is, you know, what typically happens is a copy editor ascribes to a certain manual of style. Then there's also, you know, depending on which dictionary you're using, Oxford versus Webster, um, which that just tends to be American versus English-English. And they'll also have, you know, their, their stylistic format, um, even in non-fiction, you know, there's things you have to grade on, like, um, "how are we writing out numbers? Are they going to be a numerical value or is it going to be a Roman numeral? Or are you going to write out the entire number?" Now when you get into science fiction and fantasy, this gets a little more tricky, obviously. So, um, a lot of times what we've done with our copy editors is provided, you know, a list of characters. "Okay, here's their names. Here's the absolute definite correct spelling. Here's a list of places. Here's the absolute correct spelling." Rekka (28:18): I would like to suggest as you go over the line, edits from your editor, that this is a good time to catch any name and build a glossary, if you haven't already done it. Any proper name or unique word to your world that people might be like, "huh? I wonder what that is." This is a good time to make a glossary. And then you've chosen the official spelling and you can refer to it yourself. You are going to use this glossary more than your readers ever will. Kaelyn (28:45): Absolutely. If you have naming conventions in your world, if there is, um, you know, like "this is how this title is formatted," "this is how you address, um, somebody from this place," uh, "this should always be..." This is what you need to give the copy editor because the copy editor needs to know what to flag as possibly incorrect. Copy editors also, I mean, like auto-correct can do some weird things sometimes, especially if these are, you know, made up names and places. Rekka (29:24): Neo-pronouns. Autocorrect loves to just wreck havoc on them. Kaelyn (29:28): Yeah. So sometimes autocorrect will change something to make it correct as autocorrect sees it. And the copy editor needs to know that that's not what that's actually supposed to look like. So arming your copy editor with the resources and information they need is super important. A copy editor is going to give you back a manuscript that is going to have thousands of changes in it, because they have been moving commas and periods— and commas, by the way, are something that your line editor is going to go and have opinions about, and then your copy editor is going to say, no, that's wrong. So there is going to be a little— don't worry, it won't just be you fighting with the copy editor here, your regular editor's going to be doing that too. Rekka (30:14): She's not wrong, folks. Kaelyn (30:16): Yeah. And you know, generally you defer to the copy editor. Rekka (30:20): Right. They're hired for their skillset. The previous editor was hired to help you craft a better story. Kaelyn (30:27): Exactly. Yes. Copy editors are very, very special people. Always be nice to copy editors. Rekka (30:35): They're precious and wonderful. And you're not! Going! To anger them! Kaelyn (30:40): No, do not anger the copy editors. Copy editing, by the way, just as a side note is an incredibly valuable skillset. We talk a lot about "copy" over the course of these episodes: "back copy," "cover copy." "Copy" is words. It's words that you have written and you were getting ready to send out into the world. A copy editor's job is to make sure the words and the grammar are being held to the standard that they are supposed to. Rekka (31:10): That they're doing what you want them to, which is communicating efficiently. Kaelyn (31:15): Anything that you have read that is published, that is not a simple sign (and even in those cases, sometimes that could've used a copy editor) has probably gone through a copy editor, or it should have at least. They're— copy editors work in all sorts of industries that are publishing adjacent. You know, like marketing companies will frequently have somebody who, maybe it's not their full-time job, but can do copy editing for them. It's an amazing skill set to have and it is something that if somebody put a gun to my head and said, "you need to copy edit this. I don't think I could, because I can not maintain that level of detailed consistency. Rekka (31:54): That's the thing is like, when you're talking about a novel that could be a Sanderson novel of 500,000 words, a copy editor, you know, should sit on a throne of diamonds and wear a crown and be served all their favorite— Kaelyn (32:12): The skulls of their enemies. Rekka (32:14): It is absurd, the amount of work they do to make us look good. Kaelyn (32:19): By the way, if you are self publishing and you're going to hire a copy editor, not to scare anyone, this is a heads up. They're not cheap. Rekka (32:27): They shouldn't be. Like, listen to how much work they're doing. Kaelyn (32:30): Yes, exactly. It's obviously different, but it's like going to hire like, you know, a welder or, you know, a, a stone mason or something. This is something that they have been trained to do. Rekka (32:42): So pay them. Kaelyn (32:44): Yeah. Copy editors: wonderful people, pay them, be very nice to them. So that's really the last stage in like the editing editing. And you're going, "Oh, well, that's great. I'm done." You're not. You're not. Rekka (32:55): Oh, sweet summer child. You are not done. Kaelyn (32:59): Because next is proofreading. Now, if you're sitting at home and going like, "Oh my God, proofreading, like my teacher would tell us to do in elementary school before I turned something in? Like, 'Oh, make sure you proofread this.'" First of all, your teacher was using that word incorrectly. Um, what they were actually telling you to do is copy edit. Rekka (33:19): Well, no. Copy edit and then proofread. What your teacher didn't tell you was to do it twice. Kaelyn (33:24): Yes. Yes. So let's do some terms here. Cause you know how I love definitions. We talked about what a copy editor is. They edit copy. We know what copy is. Proofreaders: that's exactly what they do. They read proofs. So this is, you know, in the days when you still had to use to print these things and mark them up manually, you would print a proof. So like if you've ever gotten formal pictures taken and it says like there's a watermark on there that says like "proof only: not for distribution" or something, that means that that's the version that's not final. We have to look at this and make changes to it. A proof editor is checking for the quality of the book before it goes into mass production. "How does this look now?" Is, you know, and Rekka can certainly speak more to this than I can, being a graphic designer. Um, but is this like, "are there huge rivers through the text? Are the margins okay? Are there massive gaps between words?" A proof editor is also going to flag any mistakes that they see, obviously. You're always flagging mistakes as you're working through this. Rekka (34:34): And an author also gets their proofs, um, sometimes called galleys. And it's now your last chance to make sure that everything came across the way you intended. And sometimes, that can involve the placement of a word on a page. "Does this sentence get chopped up and become unreadable because of the way it falls across columns or pages?" Kaelyn (35:02): Yeah. And you know, I did this once with Rekka and there's all of these terms I had never heard before. Like um what do you call it? An orphan when there's like— Rekka (35:10): Right? You've got orphans, widows, rivers, there's lots of terms that, um, it's up to the graphic designer. The page layout artists has hopefully looking at these too. Uh, the publisher is hopefully looking at these too. Hopefully there's like the entire team is, either together or separately, sitting down. You know, you want to say that in this digital age, we don't need to print these out anymore, but you really do. Because looking at it on the screen is not going to show it to you the way it's going to appear in the printout. And keep in mind, we're not talking about the e-book proof here. Kaelyn (35:47): And it's funny. Cause I was going to say actually is the other thing that a designer and a proofreader is going to do is try to account for anything that could end up looking really funny on an e-reader. There's only so much you can do with that. But there are certain things that stand out that are like, "this is just going to look strange." Rekka (36:04): Yeah. So depending on how everything's structured, because it's entirely possible that you have a different person doing the design of the print book than you do creating the e-book, or you may have somebody who comes in and takes the designer's files and converts them to an EPUB to try and basically get the most recent version. Um, but then you have to watch out for things that a designer for print will do that does not translate well to EPUB. And um, so there, there's a lot of work on the proof that like, I'm aware of and this all may sound like a big pile of overwhelm, but basically what Kaelyn is bringing up is that there's a reason that people print out or create proofs. And that's where the word comes from for "proofreading," because basically it should be called "last chance editing" because after this, it costs a lot of money to make any changes. At this point, it will cost money to make changes. But this is one copy. When you have a print run of 10,000, now we are talking "Too late. Sorry." Kaelyn (37:17): I mean, it's also it's design and quality check too. It's you know, for all of the time we were talking about when you're doing a line that it's about, does this make sense? Is this going to distract the reader? The proofreader, the designer, is doing this too, where they're looking at this and going, "hang on, like something's weird here. And this is going to be confusing." That's really, as Rekka said, this is your last chance. This is when— Rekka (37:47): This is when you hope you find any mistake that made it through the cracks, because these are going to be the mistakes that those one star reviewers zero in on, and just drag you across the coals for. And sometimes it's nothing to do with you, the writer, um, sometimes it's a formatting issue. Sometimes it's the result of weird behavior from copy-paste between programs. Kaelyn (38:10): But I love those reviewers that are like, "and the author clearly did not check their margins." Like, no, they didn't. They're the author. That's not their job. Rekka (38:17): That's not their job. Yeah. Self-publishing maybe, but even then a lot of these things are outside the author's control depending on the tools they use. Kaelyn (38:25): So yeah. So then at that point you are actually done, that's it. Rekka (38:31): One hopes. Now it's time for your, um, launch strategy and your marketing plan and your book tour and... Sorry, you're not done. Kaelyn (38:41): That's your edits. And we, you know, we made it sound like this was just a neat step-by-step, but you know, let's, let's be honest. We all know that's not true. Rekka (38:52): Oh, God. It's like, "hurry, hurry, hurry. What the heck does this mean? I don't understand this grammar rule you're explaining to me and I don't have the Chicago Manual of Style. So I'm just going to try and interpret what you said or maybe I'll rephrase the sentence, so we don't have to even have this conversation. And then I'm going to submit it back to you..." Kaelyn (39:11): The times where I was like, "look, I'm done with this word. I'm not doing this anymore. We're just getting rid of it." Rekka (39:17): Sometimes we just write around a word. Yeah. Kaelyn (39:20): You know what I would say and what I hope anybody who, especially if you're going through this for the first time is: take this, and I'm not saying this to sound condescending, take this as a learning experience. This is a really difficult thing to do. Um, you know, like you thought writing the book was hard. Well now you've got to edit it, but take it as a learning experience where you can try to gather as much information about the thoughts and process and everything that goes into this on your own. You know, really try to engage and pay attention to what's happening. Not only because it's your book, but because this is going to help make you a better writer. Rekka (39:57): Oh, there's very little that you can do about having to go through this process except appreciate that, um, that it is making your book better. Kaelyn (40:09): And look, I think we've all at some point picked up a book that clearly wasn't edited. Well. Um, I can think of a few off the top of my head. I have one in particular, I remember mentioning to Rekka and she said, "Oh, how do you like that?" And I said, "I've never read a book more desperately in need of an editor in my life." Um, I think everybody, you know, kind of goes into this with the, "okay, well, whatever, then I just need to edit it." That that, child, will be your undoing. Um, editing's a process. The more you can learn about it as you're working through this process, the more it's going to benefit you as a writer in the long run. Rekka, Would you agree? Rekka (40:56): Nah, nah. Just, wing it. Kaelyn (40:59): Just slap a bunch of words on the page and be done. Rekka (41:02): You know what, Word has spellcheck. You're good. Kaelyn (41:05): Basically the same thing. Yeah and by the way, on that note real quick, you know, this is for both writers and self-publishers. Um, you know, for those who are going the more traditional publishing route, taking a pass at this, you know, in doing some line edits yourself before you submit it is a good thing to do. No one's expecting it to be perfect, but you know, addressing any sort of egregious errors is always a good step. Rekka (41:29): And you mentioned earlier, and we didn't really emphasize it enough. Reading your book out loud to yourself. This is something that like after the surgeries I had and the treatment I had last year, is going to be very difficult for me in the future. I am still going to do it. I don't care if my book is a Sanderson-sized doorstop. It is so valuable to read the work out loud and hear the words the way you put them on the page. Kaelyn (41:54): I, for my day job, send a lot of emails and um, a lot of times, you know, I'll be doing like some co-work time with people on my team, and I will have to keep muting things because I read emails out loud before I send them. Um, so yeah, if you are, you know, for tips for both people submitting for traditional publication, people who are self-publishing—obviously, if you're self publishing, you need to be much more thorough—take a pass at yourself, look word has, you know, some decent, uh, intelligence about this now. It's not perfect. Rekka (42:30): It's not great. I would not rely on it alone. Kaelyn (42:32): No. Well, we're, we're getting there. Read it aloud, but then also: Grammarly. And I didn't want to get too into the weeds on this in this episode because Grammarly is not a panacea. It is not a cure all. It is not going to make your book perfect, but it is a good way to take a pass at something and to also use it to start recognizing patterns of things that you've done. Rekka (42:56): Also, its algorithm is getting a lot better. Kaelyn (42:59): The algorithm is getting fantastic. I would say, especially for self publishing, obviously the paid version of this is worth it. Rekka (43:06): Yep. It's a yearly subscription. Kaelyn (43:08): Um, one thing is just do not let it integrate into everything on your computer because it's going to try to, and it will ruin your life. Yeah. Rekka (43:15): Yes I am— I have a Grammarly subscription and the only thing I do is go to grammarly.com, login, and paste my text into their editor. Kaelyn (43:25): It's going to be like, "Hey, you like Grammarly, right? Wouldn't you like to write fantastically all the time, give us access to your email, give us access to your web browser, give us access to your texts." And then you're going to hate yourself. Rekka (43:38): And it's like pulling out ticks to get it back out again. Plus it messes up forms. At least it did the last time I let it anywhere near my web browser. It will mess with the forms that you're trying to submit, um, that have like the built-in editors and stuff. It was a mess. Anyway, don't do that. On top of Grammarly, there is also ProWritingAid. It used to be like, it's basically Grammarly, but has a different algorithm. And so you would run through one and then run through the other and then maybe it would be cleaner for having done both. Now. ProWritingAid has a bunch of different modes. It lets you set the reading level that you intended to write at, and then tell you whether you are along the median for that, overall, and point out words that you are using that are not within your expected reading level, and all this good stuff. So if you write, um, middle-grade, ProWritingAid might be a tool that you definitely want to consider as well. Like we said, we didn't mean to get into the toolbox end of these things, but these are things that you can do on your own to really get as clean a draft as you can. Rekka (44:43): You know, people who read romance seem to be a lot more forgiving of typos and errors than people who read within a genre that is more typically traditionally published, which is not to say that traditional publishers get it right all the time. But the fans and readers are much less tolerant of that. Kaelyn (45:05): I think science fiction, especially hard military SciFi is the one, in my experience, that's going to go after you for typos the most. Rekka (45:13): Well, they're going to go after you for a lot of things. So we're not even going to go there today. All right. So, um, any last thoughts on editing and the different levels of editing and can you go backward? Like if you realize there's a big error— like here's, here's my worry as an author, is that the publisher is going to get me to copy edits and then in my copy, edit review, I realize, "Oh my God, that's an egregious, uh, continuity error." Or "this would be very offensive." Kaelyn (45:48): It's definitely happened where, you know, it's like, "Oh crap, Laura never did come out of the bathroom." Rekka (45:54): Yeah. Right. To use our example from earlier. Kaelyn (45:56): Like at this point, you, you know, you call a sit down and you say, all right, we got to figure out a way to resolve this. And by that point, you know, it's not, you're out of the traditional editing process at that point. You're, you know, you're doing containment strategy by then. Um, if you've gotten that far in the book and there is a giant mistake that's going to have massive rippling effects through the entirety of the book and nobody caught it to this point—because presumably at least three or four set of eyes have been on this by now—and nobody's caught it that's means there's probably some larger issues here that need to be addressed as well. Um, but look it's definitely happened where it's like, "Oh my God, well, what happened to that one character?" And then you've got to go find a way to address it. Kaelyn (46:45): And what I've found to the best way to do is to isolate it, to say, "okay, Laura went into the bathroom and never came back out." If the easy explanation to that is Laura is not an important character. She was just a friend that drops by, Rekka (46:58): Bye Laura. Kaelyn (47:00): Yeah. We add a sentence where "I heard Laura leave and the door closed behind her. I guess I'll catch up with her next week." If Laura is somebody that you know needs to be addressed, maybe this is a series. Maybe later we find out what happens to Laura. Um, there's ways to deal with it. But my, my favorite strategy is containment. Isolate the problem and then figure out where we're going to address it down the line. Rekka (47:25): In any level of editing, whether you are coming in too late to catch a problem, or you are coming in on schedule, and this is just your first line edit, or your, even your dev edit. Sometimes the solution is to remove a thing that's a problem rather than to write in why it's not a problem. Kaelyn (47:45): Did Laura need to be there at all? Did we need to see her? Did she need to come in and use the bathroom? Rekka (47:51): I mean, to Laura, she needed to use the bathroom, but for the purposes of our story, I'm not sure what kind of slice of life story this is, but I'm, it's not sold me so far. Kaelyn (48:04): Um, this will happen occasionally. My best advice I can give you is: don't panic, deep breaths, figure out a way to adjust the problem. Rekka (48:13): There's going to be a simpler solution than your first panicked worry might—especially you get more panicked later in the process, this all starts to happen. Kaelyn (48:23): Absolutely. Yep. New Speaker (48:24): You have a minute to take a breath and think of a simpler way out of it. Kaelyn (48:28): Take a breath. Your editor's there to help you with this. You know, bring in somebody else that's read the book if possible, and get yourselves a cup of tea, tea, coffee, wine, whatever, and figure out how to address this. There—I've never come across a continuity error or a plot hole or something so far into the process that it wasn't fixable. Rekka (48:50): No, I think that's, that's a good place to leave people. A little bit of hope. It's never, it's never too late. It's never too big to fix. Kaelyn (48:56): Yep. Well, anyway, so that's edits. Um, you know, the one takeaway I would have here is: try to enjoy them as best you can, because this is, this is part of the writing process. And it's a part of the writing process where you can really learn a lot. I think. So. Um, so anyway. Rekka (49:20): Yep. If you have any more questions about editing, if you really feel like Kaelyn missed the, the question that's been burning in your soul, you can at us @WMBcast on Instagram and Twitter. You can support us at patreon.com/WMBcast. And, um, if you could leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts for this episode or any episode, the podcast in general, just leave a little like half, half formed phrase. We'll edit it for you. Kaelyn (49:50): Or just make like a winky face. Rekka (49:53): Yeah. Like a Winky face is fine. Um, but if you have a comment or a compliment or a criticism or question, please leave it at Apple podcasts for our podcast, which will help other people find our podcast. Um, I've been hearing from a few people lately that they are tuning in for the first time and bingeing. Um, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people on treadmills, um, who are listening and other, you know, kind of like time-consuming things. And I'm just like, thank you so much for spending that time with us and, um, appreciating what we have to say enough to continue spending that time with us. So, um, that's awesome. And, uh, that's a great thing to leave in a rating or review. Winky face. Kaelyn (50:35): "Winky face. Excellent treadmill listening." Rekka (50:39): There you go. All right. We will talk to you all in two weeks. Thank you so much again for listening and, uh, see you next time.  

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Lots of links this episode!  A.Z.’s website https://www.azlouise.com/ @az_louise https://twitter.com/az_louise “Chorus of the Captains” by Amanda Gorman (Performed at the NFL Super Bowl) https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/super-bowl-2021-read-the-transcript-of-amanda-gorman-poem-chorus-of-the-captains/ The Hidebehind: https://cryptidz.fandom.com/wiki/Hidebehind The Iliad: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html Shakespeare: http://shakespeare.mit.edu/ Poem “She’s Not A Phoenix” by A.Z. Louise (Strange Horizons): http://strangehorizons.com/poetry/shes-not-a-phoenix/ AASHTO Manual: https://www.scribd.com/document/118295981/AASHTO Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer: https://www.jeffvandermeer.com/book/annihilation/ Twisted Moon: http://www.twistedmoonmag.com/5/louise.html Submission Grinder: https://thegrinder.diabolicalplots.com/   Episode Transcript (by Rekka, blame her for all errors) Kaelyn (00:00:00): Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:00:07): I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R J Theodore. And I might start writing some poetry as R J Theodore. Kaelyn (00:00:15): Yeah, really? Gonna, you're going to take that dive, that plunge? Rekka (00:00:19): Well, look, I've written a lot of poetry in my life. I've just spared everybody. Kaelyn (00:00:24): I didn't know that about you actually. I feel, um, not betrayed. Um, what's the word I'm looking for here? Uh, surprised. Rekka (00:00:33): Surprised. But not disappointed. I hope. Kaelyn (00:00:35): No, no, of course not. I've never disappointed at any of your writing. Uh, so yeah, we, um, We Make Books took a little bit of a turn—but it turns out not too much, if you listen to the episode—um, into the realm of poetry, because you know, it turns out people do actually publish poems and stuff. Rekka (00:00:52): Yeah, quite a few of the markets that publish the short stories that we sub out (and sometimes trunk) are also seeking poetry and some exclusively, and some anthologies are all about poetry, and some single author anthologies end up being all about poetry. So if you've got a poetic bone in your finger somewhere, maybe this is the episode you need to hear to, um, try and draw some of that out. Kaelyn (00:01:16): Rekka was able to interview poet A.Z. Louise, who, um, was kind enough to take the time to sit down and, you know, talk about like some things I really didn't know about poetry and the publishing industry. Rekka (00:01:28): Yeah, it was great to have A.Z.. A.Z. Louise is a lover of birds, a killer of houseplants and a former civil engineer. Their love of speculative fiction has been lifelong, but they became a speculative poet by accident. Their work has appeared in Strange Horizons, Fiyah, and The Future Fire. Kaelyn (00:01:45): I think poetry is a little intimidating. I don't know why a poem is so much more intimidating than a full length, novel to a lot of people, but it certainly is for me. Rekka (00:01:55): I think there's a certain expectation of highbrow, um, of elevated intellect that is required for good poem or to understand a good poem. There, there seems to be some sort of requirement to get in the door to poetry. Kaelyn (00:02:16): Yeah. I think everybody's got this notion in their head that like to understand poetry, you need to have gone to school for it, which I don't know why nobody thinks that about writing. Rekka (00:02:26): Well, I hope it's not true about writing cause I didn't go to school for writing. Kaelyn (00:02:30): Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, and I think there's definitely a lot of theory and craft behind poetry to be sure. Um, and you know, this is, uh, it's an area of publishing that I think, in mainstream publishing, is not talked about as much. So, um, A.Z. was kind enough to spend some time with Rekka going through some of the nuances of it. It's very interesting. Rekka (00:02:51): I think so. Kaelyn (00:02:52): Yeah. Rekka (00:02:52): And I wanna try it now. I don't know when it will, but I'm gonna. Kaelyn (00:02:57): Well, um, on that note, we're going to let Rekka go, uh, you know, compose us a nice haiku about—. Rekka (00:03:03): Maybe a Limerick to start. Kaelyn (00:03:05): Oh definitely a Limerick. Yes. To start. Rekka (00:03:20): The world has just seen the first major American sporting event with a poem as featured part of the entertainment, um, which is just wild to consider. Um, because it doesn't feel like the world is getting more open to that sort of thing. But at the same time, this was scheduled like long before the same poet, Amanda Gorman, um, read a very moving poem at the inauguration of the president. So somehow poetry was already on the schedule for— I'm talking about the NFL Super Bowl. I just don't know how that happened. A.Z. Louise (00:03:57): It was so wild, absolutely wild to see. Rekka (00:04:00): And I love it. And um, so it is total coincidence that we're doing a poetry episode not long after that. just like I said, I needed a cohost and I jumped on A.Z.. A.Z. Louise (00:04:11): Hello! Rekka (00:04:11): Because A.Z. was missing podcasting. Um, so yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be very happy if poetry, I wanna say came back. I don't know if that's fair to say, but it feels like poetry is more of a 18th, 19th century thing. And here we are in the 21st century and we are getting a lot of poetry, but it's in the form of like, "I have eaten the Lego pieces that were on the carpet and which you were probably building into the razor crest, forgive me. They were delicious. So sharp and so crunchy." There's been a different sort of poetry discourse lately, but there are poems constantly being published and there are poets out there constantly creating new poems. So let's, um, let's talk about poetry cause I want to acknowledge it. And if anyone in our audience has felt like, okay, I love poetry, but I have to write short stories to get published. Like, let's, let's put that in the bin. And so tell us, cause you write both. A.Z. Louise (00:05:15): Yes. Rekka (00:05:16): Um, what makes you write a poem instead of a short story? And when you write a poem, what's your thought process in terms of like where it's going to go when you write it, or do they just sort of happen? A.Z. Louise (00:05:34): So I kind of have two different modes for poetry. Uh, one is where I feel like I either miss poetry or need a break from prose and I just need to let the ideas and images flow. And the other mood I have for poetry is I'm processing something. So a lot of times for me, poetry is a first pass on emotions. So if you have wronged me, I've written a poem about you. Because frequently that's where I go when I'm really upset about something and I don't feel ready to talk to another person about it. And I just want to process it with myself for a minute first. Um, so frequently I will just have a line appear in my head and it will be too strange or too unstructured to be part of a short story. Um, and then after I put it down on the page, I can connect it to other ideas and that's how it becomes a poem. Rekka (00:06:47): Okay. A.Z. Louise (00:06:48): So it's sort of a connect the dots process, which is different from my short fiction process, because my short fiction process, I typically have a specific scene in my head, um, with specific people who are doing or saying specific things. Rekka (00:07:08): Okay. A.Z. Louise (00:07:09): So it's much more primordial. Um, however, I have written a poem and actually submitted it a few times and the other poems I had submitted it with got picked up, but not that one. And I was like, okay, there's something about this that isn't working. And I ended up writing a whole short story out of it Rekka (00:07:33): Based on the poem or using some of the words from the poem and just making the poem flow less like a lyrical experience. A.Z. Louise (00:07:41): Yeah, it was... So do you know what a Hide-Behind is? Rekka (00:07:48): I do not. And I bet some of our listeners, don't either. A.Z. Louise (00:07:51): So it's um, uh, a fearsome critter. Um, so it's this Appalachian cryptid. Um, and one of the things you have to do to protect yourself from the Hide-Behind is to drink being drunk will keep the cryptid from eating you, I guess. Maybe he's on the wagon. I don't know. Um— Rekka (00:08:15): Or he doesn't care or, you know, like you just won't care if the Hide-Behind eats you at that point and that's the going advice. A.Z. Louise (00:08:21): So that, um, that idea really stuck with me in part because my mom is from that area. So I felt that kind of cultural connection, but also because to me, the Hide-Behind is, uh, a creature who is dealing with trauma. Because if you were a logger back in the day in the Appalachians, your life expectancy was not very long and you were losing friends all the time because it's an extremely dangerous profession. And so that hit me because, um, I am Black and that hit me as "We are drinking. We are coping with an inter intergenerational trauma." So I wrote a poem about a father whose job is to hunt the Hide-Behind. So he is drunk a lot, but when he comes home and he's sober, he's teaching his daughter small scraps of his hide behind hunting craft, knowing that she'll have to go into it. Um, even though he wishes she didn't have to. So it is like a Black parent coming home and having to talk to their kids about all the horrible stuff in the world. And you wish you could shelter your kids from that, but you have to tell them, so in looking at this little poem and what I had done with it, I was like, "Oh, that's a whole story." Yeah. Obviously that's an entire story that deserves more than like 14 or 15 lines, which is my usual length of a poem. So it just sort of—the poem grew beyond being a poem and needed to be a story, which is not to say that a poem is less than a short story. It is that, for me with a poem, I'm creating mood and emotion and with a short story, I am creating, um, more of a scene. So a poem for me is like a piece of music that you listen to. And a short story is a play that you would watch or a musical. Rekka (00:10:40): Yeah. Or even the music video sometimes. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I, when you try and I mean, the plural, you, um, when you try to define poetry in terms of how much it should encompass, I find that really tricky because I mean, you have the Iliad, which is technically a poem. You have Shakespeare, which is technically poetry. Um, what, like— English class taught me in public school, so many things about the structure of poems and how poems should behave, never really encompassed the subject matter of poetry and the kinds of poems that I liked, uh, such as the Highwayman, were nothing like the poems I was writing, which were these scraps of teenage angst. And I'm not going to give myself any more credit for them than that, even though, like, I did have one of them published, but it was one of those like "Send in your poem and $40" kind of thing. So I'm going to put an asterisk on that one. But it's funny, I recently considered going back and sort of writing like a response to that poem from this end of my life. And— A.Z. Louise (00:12:08): That sounds like a really cool idea. Rekka (00:12:11): Yeah. And it was a short poem too. I think it was like nine lines or something like that. And I feel like it would be so completely an interpretable to anyone else even paired like that, even if I gave you some context. So I'm always curious how publications can say "this is a good poem," you know, or, um, "this is the kind of poem we're looking for." Do you think there's a format that commercial or literary poetry magazines are looking for? A.Z. Louise (00:12:46): Uh, so I write almost exclusively speculative poetry. Like, I write other poetry, but I don't usually go out and try and get published because I just love speculative stuff. I didn't even know that you could write speculative poetry, and then I saw a call for submissions. I was like, "Oh, hey, that's a thing." And then I went back to the poetry that I loved in high school and college. And for me, poetry is very much about feeling and metaphor. And I write mostly very short form poetry. So if it's not more than a page, it's poetry, like, and if I feel like it's going to be longer, it's not poetry. But you know, I try to work, uh, the poetic phrase and metaphor into each line of what I'm writing when I write short fiction. But I think that when you're trying to sell a poem, it has to encompass something. A.Z. Louise (00:13:57): Uh, so I have a lot of poems about anger because I am a Black person, I am mentally ill, I'm queer on Earth. So when I'm writing a poem about something like that, I am trying to—usually through metaphor because it's about like a dragon or something—I'm trying to encompass the whole world of things, uh, that are causing that anger into a very small package. So every single line has to inform the other lines and frequently my poetry is... It works in a bunch of different orders and I have to work and work and work to figure out what the best order for each line is. Uh, and because short fiction generally has more plot and more character. Rekka (00:15:03): Right. There's a sequence of events. A.Z. Louise (00:15:06): You can't write character development, say, out of order, it's going to be weird. And obviously there are stories that are told out of order, but, um, there is still, uh, a basic structure there. A.Z. Louise (00:15:23): And, uh, obviously people talk a lot about how, uh, many editors are—and readers and writers are—trapped in a very Western sort of three structure. Plot-driven conflict driven structure. And while that is true, and I'm very mad about it, uh, because I do work outside of that a lot because of my mental illness—my brain simply doesn't put things together in the way that other people's do—um, there are still many different structures outside of the Western Canon, the editor or reader just doesn't know about it, you know? Um, they're not structureless. Um, they just have a structure that is not known to the reader. Um, now there— obviously poetry has structure, but I read mostly freeverse. So I'm just out there throwing things out. Um, and then sort of collecting them. It's like catching butterflies in a net. And then I was going to say mounting them, but that's like really sad. That's real, real sad. Um— Rekka (00:16:40): And, and studying them before, releasing them A.Z. Louise (00:16:42): Again. Yes, I am taking, I'm taking each little butterfly, I'm drawing a little picture in my field notes, I'm taking my notes and then I'm setting them free. Um, and then I collate my notes into something that feels whole, if that makes any sense. Rekka (00:16:58): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the ultimate judge of when the poem is doing what you want is of course you, the composer of the poem. Yes. Um, I, and, and that part makes a certain amount of sense to me. I have, in my poetry that I've written, and we're talking years ago, um, though like making the bed like a week ago, a poem sort of started to come to me and I was sort of like piecing together. Like, I didn't know where it was going, but I felt like, "okay, you know, this piece or that piece might need to change." Um, which was weird for me to be like analyzing it before I ever wrote it down. Cause you know, making the bed. Um, but then in my head I'm immediately going "Okay, but someone's going to judge this without any of the context of where I wrote it from, and to me, the only way to take something that was coming to me from a deeply personal reaction to something was to make it so, either vague as to be universal, or specific as to have a plot structure or something, uh, if not plot structure, then like thesis statement and supportive arguments. A.Z. Louise (00:18:18): They give the context to the reader. Rekka (00:18:21): Yeah, In your experience, do you feel like the magazines respond better to something that feels, I mean, feels universal or feels deeply personal? Because like, for example, She's Not a Phoenix, which you had published in Strange Horizons is clearly deeply personal. A.Z. Louise (00:18:38): Yes, yes. For sure. That's an anger poem, that's a slight poem. I have been slighted! Rekka (00:18:45): But it's something I can relate to, even though I do not have the experience that you do, that the poem came from. Um, and I— like, I'm just, I'm in awe of it. And I want to know how you did it and how it, how it developed and like why did Strange Horizons pick it? A.Z. Louise (00:19:08): That poem is obviously a metaphor for something that happened to me and— Rekka (00:19:14): And our listeners can find it in the show notes it's available online publicly, which is why I'm using it as an example. Um, so that they can go read it and feel the space in the chest where the bird belongs kind-of-thing that I'm reacting to. Like, um, the line in specifics is, um, "My rib cage, a crucible too hot to hold her." Like that is a big feel, you know? And I feel like everybody can relate to that. And I feel like this poem at the same time is ineffable to me because it came from you and I don't know why, even reading it. A.Z. Louise (00:19:59): So that one was about feeling betrayed. I am a person who often feels like I'm too much. Um, so that line is about all the times I have felt like I'm too much. And the thing is, is that everyone on Earth has felt betrayed. Most people have felt like they are too much for somebody else. And I feel that one of the beautiful things about Twitter is that, um, it is easy to see that almost every feeling you've ever had somebody else has had too. Rekka (00:20:38): Right, yeah! A.Z. Louise (00:20:38): And so when I wrote it, it did feel, it actually did feel so personal that I didn't think anyone would pick it up. And then the first place I submitted it took it and heck, Oh my goodness. It's Strange Horizons! I love Strange Horizons! Rekka (00:20:54): Yeah. I mean, what a, what a bingo card moment too. A.Z. Louise (00:20:57): I was shook. So it was kind of like, "Oh, this is one of those things where somebody tweets something super relatable and it immediately goes viral." Like I felt like I had captured that feeling of seeing a complete stranger on the internet experiencing the exact same feelings I'd had. And nobody, I mean, it's not that everyone has experienced the exact same sequence of events that spurred me to write that poem. But I do feel like even if somebody didn't get the idea of betrayal out of that poem, they probably still felt it. Um, and I'm not saying that you have to make your feelings universal because we can talk about how the entire whiteness and, you know, straightness and neuro-typicality et cetera of publishing frequently tells you that say, your characters are not relatable enough. So I don't think you want to be writing to be relatable so that an editor will read something and say, "Oh, I felt that before, I will buy this poem." Um, but to know that whoever is reading your poem will assign meaning to it no matter what you put in it, I mean, your making-the-bed poem: somebody might get something totally, completely different from what you put into it, but you have to make, um, you'd have to make the metaphors, um, speak. If that makes sense. It's really hard to describe. Rekka (00:22:47): Yeah. It's almost like the way you write it, you make it more personal, but in doing so, you make it more relatable. A.Z. Louise (00:22:55): Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The, the, the more you dig down deep into yourself, the more people will read it and get some crumb of what you're feeling and be able to apply it to their own feelings. And I think that's why poetry is really powerful. And actually I wanted to bring it back to when you mentioned the poetry we're taught in school. Um, because one of the things I was not taught about, because I went to a incredibly white school, I think there were a dozen black kids in the whole school. Rekka (00:23:29): That is more than I had in my, very, very white school. A.Z. Louise (00:23:32): Yeah. So one thing I didn't have a huge education on is rap and hip hop, and that's poetry! And so popular is because even if you are rapping about something that somebody else has never experienced, people love it so much because they feel it. So. A.Z. Louise (00:23:55): Also forget iambic pentameter, to hear somebody rapping, it is the most like awe-inspiring jaw-dropping thing. A.Z. Louise (00:24:03): Yeah. I truly wish that my poetry felt like it could slide into that because I love it. So the form of poetry can go so many places and touch so many people. And I feel like that's why it's super important to drill deep down into what you are feeling because you never know who's going to read it and really feel it because one of the poems I love the most is "This is just to say," because my mom was getting her English major when I was a child and she had this gigantic tome, like four inches thick of poetry. And she would read to me out of it, um, for her reading assignments. And one of the poems she read to me was that one. And it reminded me of my grandma's house, um, where we would go in the summer. And it gave me such a feeling of belonging that has stuck with me my entire life. So I am that very corny person, who says that "This is just to say" is their favorite phone, cause it hit me exactly right. Rekka (00:25:13): And you know, when you expand poetry into, um, you know, the different forms we've talked about, like, I grew up reading the Highwayman and like, other European poems, and I am—you know, like I enjoyed them. I got stories out of them. There was, there was something in there for me. But as soon as I got out of my, you know, Connecticut life and I went somewhere where I was exposed to other peoples whose experiences I had never been exposed to before. And suddenly my favorite poems were music, talking about things that my poetry classes would never have considered appropriate subject matter. We'll just put it that way. Like I looked at while we were talking, I looked up the definition of poetry because I expected irony. And here it is: A poem is a metrical composition, a composition in verse written in certain measures, whether in blank verse or in rhyme and characterized by imagination and poetic diction." Like, there is nothing in that about connecting to other people and their humanity and relating or anything like that. A.Z. Louise (00:26:32): I love it so much. I'm so happy right now! Rekka (00:26:36): It's just the worst, right? And I think that's, the problem is like we are, when we are instructed on what a poem is, we, we, I don't know. We get the implication that there are masters of it. And then everybody else who should not even try. A.Z. Louise (00:26:53): It, it, I think it's really similar to the way that, I mean, prose is taught, right? You get a book and then you dissect it into a million tiny pieces until it's no longer enjoyable. Um, and that's what your teachers teach you, is like, deep reading. And the thing is, I love deep reading and I love criticizing my favorite things. It brings me joy to pick apart the things that I love. Cause I'm the worst. Um— Rekka (00:27:19): No, I do the same thing. Like I exit a movie or something like that, and I absolutely spend the next hour and a half ruining it for my husband and he goes, "But I thought you enjoyed it?" I'm like, "I did." A.Z. Louise (00:27:28): Yeah. Yeah. Rekka (00:27:30): "But these things could be fixed." A.Z. Louise (00:27:31): My story brain completely turns off when I'm in the movie and that over the next week I start remembering things and I'm like, "Oh man, I have to annoy someone with this. Right now." Rekka (00:27:43): Yeah. So I understand like enjoying the, the criticism aspect of it. Um, but— I'm sorry, I cut you off to relate to what you were saying. A.Z. Louise (00:27:56): That definition is really funny to me because it reminds me of what's in the AASHTO manual, which is the manual of stuff you need to know to engineer a road. Cause I was a roadway design engineer. Um, and the thing is, is that this frigging book is impenetrable and all you really need from it is to know like what's the acceptable width of a sidewalk. It's five feet, because people who use wheelchairs need to be able to properly use a sidewalk. Rekka (00:28:29): Right. Let's say "clear space of a sidewalk." Exactly. Cause as soon as people start filling it with lamps and small gardens and railings and uh, let's say sidewalk dining, suddenly. A.Z. Louise (00:28:42): Yeah. Actually. A.Z. Louise (00:28:43): I'm sorry. I love accessibility. I — that's a whole other podcast [episode] we need to start. A.Z. Louise (00:28:48): The first engineering project I ever worked on was a sidewalk project. So I have a lot of feelings about accessibility for sidewalks and I will fight about it, and how much more frequently they need to be maintained. Let's be real. Rekka (00:29:00): Right. Yeah. Um, but I was, uh, I did a major in interior design temporarily before I switched to graphic design. And the, um, the rules of ADA were, um, like gospel to me, whereas everyone else in the room was like, "but I want to do this." So I, I have that. I have that sort of sense of like, "no, no, no, this is how it should be. And this is the bare minimum" versus all that. But this is unrelated to poetry, except that poetry is very accessible. Continue. A.Z. Louise (00:29:34): I'm metaphoring again, as you do. When you go into this manual, it's completely impenetrable and there's all this math and it sounds terrible. And it would never, in a million years be accessible to someone who didn't go to engineering school. But once you dig down, you actually have to use a lot of creativity to make your project work, because there's going to be a lot of stuff that gets in the way it's like, "Oh, you know what? The water resources guys are telling me that I have to put a manhole here." Or, "Okay. So the lady over in environmental engineering is telling me we can't disturb this because there's mussels." Um, so you have to use every ounce of your creativity to work around all of these things that are getting in the way of you just putting a straight dag sidewalk, um, and making sure it's wide enough to be useful for humans. Rekka (00:30:29): Right. Right. A.Z. Louise (00:30:30): That kind of idea is, uh, something I have taken into my creative life, which is that, when you write a short story, you're going to run up against stuff that you didn't mean to happen. Like, one of the things that writers say the most frequently is that "my characters are doing stuff I don't want them to make Them stop!" Um, so, um, you are kind of harnessing your creativity, um, to make it run in the directions that you want. You're kind of guiding the river. Um, and with poetry, you're doing that, but you're doing it in a little bit of a different way because it is so chaotic for me. Just immediate chaos. And you do, you have to go with it a lot more than, um, you might with like a short story or a novel, um, which you might be able to eat into your outline a little bit better. Right? So I think that's why I like free verse, because you take all of the rules and you slam dunk them directly in the trash. Rekka (00:31:42): And thank goodness for that. A.Z. Louise (00:31:43): Which is very freeing for me, someone who, uh, loves rules. It's also really counter intuitive. Rekka (00:31:52): I think in terms of like the, the rhythm of the piece. If even in freeverse, we sort of develop a rhythm to the way our words flow. It's not like no rules at all. It's, "I am going to honor my natural rhythm and the word choice is more important than, you know, how long the line is." A.Z. Louise (00:32:14): Yeah. I actually really mess with how long my lines are a lot, because I like a shapely poem. I like it to look nice on the page. But I think the best way to make a lyrical poem is to read it out loud. Because what is lyrical in your own personal voice is very different from what is lyrical in somebody else's. And if someone else reads your poem out loud, it might not sound as good, but you have to be true to your own personal voice, which is one reason that I frequently go to poetry when I'm sick of prose, because as an actual maniac—um, someone who experiences mania—as a complete maniac, I frequently have to wrangle by sentences into a form a non-crazy person, uh, will understand and enjoy. Um, in poetry, I can word it in the wildest possible way and somebody's looking at it might not like it, but they will be like, "Oh, this is, that person's style." Rekka (00:33:21): Right, right. It's a relief from fixing yourself for other people. A.Z. Louise (00:33:28): Yes. And so the more you are, the more you feel that relief, um, I think the closer you are to the bones of your poem, and I've read a lot of poems that I loved and hated the style, or didn't like the format was in, but because it was in that person's true voice, I was like, "Oh, this poem rules!" So I think that being true to your own voice is much more important than like trying to make it sellable. Because I do find that the weirder I write, the better my stuff sells. Uh, and that applies to, um, short fiction as well. I have started writing much more slowly because I am trying to poem every paragraph of my short fiction. The thing is, is that I get a lot more edits and the edits are, "This sentence is whack!" Because I'm writing more whack sentences. But the story itself is enriched by the poem, the poem that is, that lives within each line and within each paragraph. So, um, it needs more maneuvering. Editors are very helpful about that. They're very sweet. Rekka (00:34:51): But the fact is they're picking it up in the first place. So it's not like— having a lyrical quality is not barring you from, from sales. Like it's not like short fiction, it doesn't work and poetry, it does. A.Z. Louise (00:35:03): Yeah. I think because more of my true voice comes out when I am being more poetic-cal. Is that a word? I'm a professional writer. Rekka (00:35:12): Look, we all know professional writers can not talk. A.Z. Louise (00:35:14): Not at all. Or spell, let's be real. I do get a lot of feedback that, "Oh, this line is awkward." And because it is awkward read in somebody else's voice. So that's where the kind of line is. Like, how does the sound read in somebody's somebody else's voice? Which is one reason it's nice to have your computer reads your fiction aloud to you. Yeah. Because then it's like, "Oh." Because I feel like when you read fiction, you are reading it more in your own voice. And when you are reading poetry, you are just letting the voice happen. Yeah. You're just letting whatever voice is there wash over you. If that makes sense. Rekka (00:35:55): That, and that explains why you get editors more willing to correct that voice when you have it in prose. Prose, where in theory you have a plot, that they're going to be more willing to red pen it. Than when it's poetry. And therefore it's gotta be— I can't imagine being an editor for a magazine who acquires poetry and then has to somehow comment without completely trampling what's going on in the poem. A.Z. Louise (00:36:28): Uh, I, I feel like I'm lucky because my background as an engineer makes me better, I think, at taking criticism because I'm used to having a plan sheet handed back to me with just like red pencil all over it. Um, but most editors are very kind and they will tell you, "You don't have to change anything you don't want to." Um, but you can tell, you can hear the little, like, little tone in the comment. That's like, "I don't know what this means. You weirdo. You're so strange. But I like it." Rekka (00:37:06): Yeah. "I'm along for the ride. However, you might need some seatbelts." A.Z. Louise (00:37:10): Yeah, exactly. "You might want to strap your reader in on this one with a little bit, a little bit less, uh, poetic license in this sentence." Rekka (00:37:21): Which is funny because, um, in my short story prose, I don't feel like I get poetic and it's something I admire so much in a lot of my colleagues' short story prose is like, there'll be a turn of phrase and it'll just be like, "Oh, this is why I write! why don't I write like this?" And, um, so the occasion where I get a comment where it's like, "Wow, this sentence." I'm just like, that's what I'm going for. A.Z. Louise (00:37:46): That's my favorite type of comment. And I love it. It feels so good. And I have always been a very utilitarian prose writer. Rekka (00:37:53): And that's where I am now. A.Z. Louise (00:37:55): Yeah. And I think I started being more poetic in my prose when I started looking at sentence structure, which is completely counterintuitive, but you know how a sentence feels— a paragraph can feel really, really repetitive if all the sentences are structured exactly the same. So by going back and reading more deeply into each sentence for like commas and stuff, I am looking more at the words that I used and "why did I put this word here next to this comma? Why did I choose this word?" And that's where I'm like, "okay, so this sentence can have much more flavor." I write so many creepy forest stories and poems. That's just like my thing, I guess. Rekka (00:38:49): You have a brand. It's okay. A.Z. Louise (00:38:50): Yeah, I really have a creepy forest and like gay sentient plants brand. Um— Rekka (00:38:57): Hey, look its day is coming. This is going to be the next thing. I mean, we actually kind of like started that with Annihilation, with Jeff VanderMeer, like getting his book made into a movie and it's all about like plant body-possessing moss. So let's, uh, let's have more of that, please. A.Z. Louise (00:39:14): Yeah that kind of thing is totally my jam. So like, if a sentence is devoid of anything foresty, I will try and slip something in and then suddenly the sentence starts to read really poetically. So, um, I think that because I do write such short poetry, every single line has to be super punchy and has to contain a lot. And it's really easy when you're writing a longer form to accidentally not do that. Which sucks because I just really like to prose straight from brain to hands to keyboard with like no plan whatsoever. And then I go back and I'm like, "where are my metaphors?" Rekka (00:39:56): I think so often we focus on things like character development and arc and plot and, um, cutting words, as opposed to making sure our words are doing all the heavy lifting. A.Z. Louise (00:40:09): Yeah. Rekka (00:40:09): Like I'm really excited. Now I want to go write some poems after talking to you, because thinking about it in like a completely different way for poetry, not in "how short can I make this line," but in "how much can I make this line hurt my reader?" A.Z. Louise (00:40:28): Yes. A.Z. Louise (00:40:28): Okay. Maybe, maybe not every line has to hurt the reader. Maybe not all homes are meant for that, but you know, how much am I going to drag my reader with this line? And if I can develop that skill, one hopes that it would sort of trickle over on its own. And it sounds like in your experience, it does. A.Z. Louise (00:40:48): That's like extremely spicy because I started doing a wordsmithing pass whenever I write fiction. As someone who writes poetry and this may come as a surprise, my prose, uh, I'm very bad at writing descriptions. I love writing dialogue. That's just my jam. Uh, so my first pass is always, always, always description because my, my, uh, fiction is almost always 10 to 50% shorter than I want it to be. Rekka (00:41:21): The white room syndrome. A.Z. Louise (00:41:23): Oh, absolutely. Rekka (00:41:23): Especially when, when you love dialogue. And a lot of my, um, my prose short pieces also come to me as like, here's a snippet of conversation and like somebody's witty remark back. Or is it like sometimes it's, it's just the response. I don't even know what the response is to, and then I build a whole story around it. And very frequently, yes, it is a story. That's about a relationship between two people and they are floating in space. Because, you know, it's spec fic so there's stars, not a white room. A.Z. Louise (00:41:53): Yeah. It's space. It's space. Usually my description pass coincides with a world building pass, because it's so easy to have all the world building in your head and not on the page at all. So then once that's down, I will do a character pass or a plot pass. Those can happen interchangeably. There's no real rhyme or reason to which one I do first. Usually the one I feel is weaker. It's the one I get first. And then when all of that is done, that's when I do the wordsmithing pass. And I feel like that's a good, a good place to do it because then everything else is as fixed as you could get it. And it also allows you to skim the heck out of your previous reading passes. You don't have to be reading super, super deep and you can just be catching bullet points and then you get less of that feeling of having read your work so many times that it's meaningless. Rekka (00:42:51): Yes. Yeah. Anytime you can avoid having to actually deep dive into every sentence. For critical reasons. A.Z. Louise (00:42:55): Yeah. And for, for poetry, I write down my first pass and then let it simmer. I will touch it for like a week. So it's like, and then I might write four or five different versions of it and decide which one is better. Let that simmer for another week and come back to it. Because the same thing happens with poetry as with prose. Like, you just looked at it so many times that it's just nothing. You might as well be looking at a blank page. Who wrote this? Not me. Rekka (00:43:25): When the poem no longer gives you goosebumps. A.Z. Louise (00:43:27): Yeah. I do write a lot of very emotional poems. So like if I don't feel sad after I read it I'm like, "Oh, I read this too many times." Rekka (00:43:36): So, you know, you mentioned three or four separate kinds of passes. Do you do that with your poems at all? Or do you mostly do a pass for impactful language? And you figure what you had to say was already in there and it might just be reordering or rewording. A.Z. Louise (00:43:55): So, on my second draft of a poem, I that's, when I like identify the problems. sssss. Cause there's usually like one main problem. My frequent problem is that I love poems that just leave you hanging. And it's like, "well, where's the next line?" Um, that's like my favorite thing. And that's one thing I could tell you, editors don't like very much. So don't do that. So frequently, my second pass will be figuring out what is the punchy, uh, button to put on the end of this poem? Um, but usually if I just wrote something like in a fugue state, just like trying to get feelings out, I will probably need to add some metaphors in there. It's just a journal and it's just feelings. And that's where I'm like, "Okay, this is where the gay plants come in. Why am I like a gay plant in this poem?" After that one is where I will start reordering stuff to see where it works best. Because once the words sound really nice, you can start reading it all different orders and decide, "okay, this is where I want it to be." Especially if it's a poem, you want to be able to be read forward and backward. For me, I want all my words to be set before I start puzzle piecing it. I'm doing these very spidery motions with my hands right now. Rekka (00:45:23): They are good spider motions. I'm enjoying watching your hands. The process actually sounds pretty similar in terms of how set you want your piece to be. I love that you think about it in terms of "how do I edit this so that I still love it at the end and that I haven't overexposed myself to the story so that it no longer engages my brain critically so that I can create the best thing that I can?" Um, and it's funny that you mentioned, you know, the editors' comments and, um, editors wanting a story that feels like it wraps up at the end, cause I have a cheat for that. A.Z. Louise (00:46:02): Oooh. I'm so excited. Rekka (00:46:04): And it's one you probably already use. In fact, I'm looking at the poem still up on my screen and you have used it here, whether it was like the same thought process or whatever. But I basically take whatever my, um, my supposition at the beginning of the story is, and I rephrase it to create like almost a thesis statement, like reiterate what I was saying. And then, and then it has bookends. And then it doesn't feel like, you know—. A.Z. Louise (00:46:30): It feels complete. Rekka (00:46:31): Yeah. It doesn't feel like oatmeal running off a plate, it's oatmeal in a bowl. So I'm just looking at your, um, you know, She's Not a Phoenix poem and you have a line repeated multiple times, and it feels like it's got like, "this is my conclusion." Even though the line is very, very weighted with lots of different meanings, it's still a conclusion. Um, because "ah yes, I recognize this pattern and that feels like a properly framed, properly bowled oatmeal." A.Z. Louise (00:47:08): Yeah. That was, uh, I wrote that a zillion years ago, but I definitely, or for me, a person with ADHD is a zillion years ago. So like five. Could be dinosaur times, I don't know. But I didn't originally have that frame around it. It wasn't a structure and I kept looking at it. I was like, "this is like, like a wet t-shirt. It is just lying in a lump and it needs to be hung on something like it needs something more to make it feel like a thing and less like, just thoughts." Rekka (00:47:41): Well, in my opinion, you definitely found that thing. A.Z. Louise (00:47:44): Oh, thank you. Rekka (00:47:44): When you tell me that it comes from an angry place. Like, I feel this phrase as like the most like acid-dripping, like denial of the thing it's saying, you know. A.Z. Louise (00:47:58): Yesssssssss! Rekka (00:47:58): Like, um, the phrase is "it's better this way." And you're like, you understand from this poem, it absolutely is not. A.Z. Louise (00:48:05): Yeah. And you know, sometimes the thing you need to hang it up on is like a little bit of structure through like repetition, and sometimes it's, uh, so— I just, I love assonance and alliteration. Ooh. Sometimes it's metaphor. So those sort of poetic, um, tools are what you're using to hang the fabric of your, uh, your poem over. So you're just taking thoughts and it's like building a little tent. Rekka (00:48:34): You're creating a frame, you know, that lets people see the whole thing as it's meant to be, as opposed to the wet ball of cotton on the, on the deck. A.Z. Louise (00:48:44): I do think a lot of people feel roped in by structure because that's what they learned to write in high school because high school is always like, you have to write a sonnet. And you're like, "uhhh!" I find that limericks are really fun just for a warmup because I find that having constraints actually makes me more creative. Um, but a lot of people do feel really boxed in because that's what they learned. But they associate freeverse with like angsty teens and the worst slam poetry you've ever heard at a cafe. And so people are like, "Oh, if I do this without a structure, it's going to be a hot mess and it's going to expose too much of me. And people will think it is terrible and that it will hurt my feelings a lot because this is my heart I'm putting on the page." Yeah. So there's definitely, I think some people do have a fear of exposing too much of themselves in poetry. And— Rekka (00:49:50): But I think that's, you know, going back to what we were talking about before, like that's, what's going to sell a poem. A.Z. Louise (00:49:55): Yeah, yeah. Rekka (00:49:57): Which is cruel. A.Z. Louise (00:49:57): Yeah it sucks really bad, but that's a fear that you have to unfortunately work through. I'm not going to say get over because rude, um, and get over it implies that you simply stop feeling afraid, which will literally never happen because you're always emailing a stranger your feelings. So you will always be a little bit, uh, afraid. And um, so you have to find ways to work through being afraid and if that's structure, then good, if it's going to freeverse, then good. Um, if you have a specific metaphor that you love use that in every dang poem, if it makes you feel safer to send your feelings to somebody. Because artists always have those kinds of style things, like if there's a phrase you love just keep using it and then maybe it will change, but nobody's going to get mad at you for writing 10,000 gay plant poems. Rekka (00:50:53): Right. I feel like there's going to be, um, some like mycology references in my poems coming up. A.Z. Louise (00:51:01): Yeah. Oh, I, I love a good mushroom. They're they're so fun for metaphors and they glow and they're cute and they're just delightful. Yeah. It's definitely like maybe if you send poems with the same thing in it over and over again to an editor, they will be like, "can you stop sending those plant poems?" But there's so many outlets and you'll be sending so much. Rekka (00:51:30): Yes. Because even if they see it over and over again, they may not have accepted it yet. And it may be just a thing for them. A.Z. Louise (00:51:36): Frankly, they probably don't even know it's you. I do read slush and sometimes names look familiar, but typically you're just reading based on the merit of the thing itself. Rekka (00:51:49): Which is always good to hear. A.Z. Louise (00:51:50): Yeah. I mean, that's editors see so many dang poems and stuff. Like if you send two poems that are really similar, they will never notice. You don't have to be self-conscious about that. Rekka (00:52:01): How do you filter? Is like there, uh, a transformation process from taking an A.Z. personal moment and turning it into a spec thick piece of poetry? A.Z. Louise (00:52:12): I do sometimes send a piece of poetry, wondering if it's speculative enough. Because the line of what is speculative and what is not, is so blurry. Um, sometimes I go ham. Sometimes I will write some feelings down and I'll be like, "I'm angry. It's dragon time." Or, "I'm very sad. I'm very tired. We're gonna write about dirt and worms let's do that." Um, so I think that the most important part of the filtration process is to consume media. And I know that's like something people say all the time, you have to— writers read, you know? Um, but you don't have to be reading strictly speculative poetry. Nature documentaries have given me so much material because when you look at a beautiful eagle soaring, metaphors will come to you. And a beautiful Eagle and a Wyvern are not that different from each other. Rekka (00:53:15): Except in the way the word rolls off your tongue. A.Z. Louise (00:53:17): Exactly. Rekka (00:53:17): Or doesn't. A.Z. Louise (00:53:19): Wyvern's a little rough. You might want to go back to dragon on that one. So yeah, I think that, and since imagery is so important, I like to follow, um, on social media accounts that just post really beautiful photos of nature and things like that, or rad, uh, speculative art. Like I love those, um, like sixties and seventies, like fantasy and science fiction covers. Rekka (00:53:45): Yeah. Sometimes they are so painful. Like there was, there's a thread and it's just like nipples everywhere. A.Z. Louise (00:53:51): Butts all over the place. Butts all the way down. A.Z. Louise (00:53:53): Butts and nipples at the same time for the same person, somehow. But yeah, it's bizarre. A.Z. Louise (00:53:58): Well the great news is that there are a lot of really cool, uh, erotic, speculative poetry outlets. Um, I had, I had something out with Twisted Moon that is about gay plants. Rekka (00:54:12): I feel like I did you dirty by picking the one poem that I could that had no gay plants in it. A.Z. Louise (00:54:17): I know, right? No. Um, it's, it's, it's always it's, with me it's gay plants, it's like tearing your chest open, and it's dirt and worms. A.Z. Louise (00:54:27): Okay so we got the tearing your chest open part. At least, even if it was a phoenix poem. A.Z. Louise (00:54:30): Yeah we've got a bird inside of a chest. Yeah. Rekka (00:54:34): So, was that a decision—I mean, you said you did this ages ago, but—was it a decision to make a phoenix because a phoenix is a spec fic element that you could communicate this idea with? I mean, the poem itself does incorporate like the, the bird that you "thought was glass turning into ash." I mean, like there are phoenix elements in it. How early in the process did that come about? Or was it a decision because you wanted to submit it? A.Z. Louise (00:54:58): That, I think that what happened is when I got to that line that you read about "my chest to crucible too hot to hold," I was like, "Oh, this bird's on fire, baby." So that was me sort of following, uh, my maybe tortured metaphor down a little rabbit hole and finding a bird in there? Rekka (00:55:20): So it's not, like you said, like, okay, search and replace every instance of "Blue Jay" with "Phoenix." It's more than that. It's finding the spec fic element inside the metaphor you already have. A.Z. Louise (00:55:32): Yeah. That's, that's what I do a lot of the time. Um, and typically it's an elemental thing. Like I will have a reference to fire or dirt or leaves or something like that. Obviously nature is in my stuff a lot. Or if I want to get really weird and wild, I have one poem about stars. Like just like having a star relationship in space. Like, it doesn't make any sense, but uh, I have mapped feelings onto stars, so now we're in science fiction. Sure. Why not? Rekka (00:56:10): Yeah. No. And it still sounds to me, like most of these stories could get picked up in a literary poem magazine if you went that path because these metaphors— like, it's not like famous poems that we were taught in school don't reference stars, you know, it's not like they don't reference dragons. And how far toward spec fic it is, sounds like it's really debatable, honestly, because so many poems are metaphorical. A.Z. Louise (00:56:42): Yeah and sometimes I will write a poem where the only thing that seems speculative about it at all is the title, because I noticed something similar to folklore in there. Um, or something like that. Like I wrote a poem recently where I, I wrote the whole thing out and I was like, it feels mildly speculative, but isn't fully there yet. Um, but it's really, really similar to, um, the story of the snow queen. So, um, I titled it in reference to that. Has it gotten picked up yet? Absolutely not. But, um— Rekka (00:57:18): But it doesn't feel like an incomplete approach to that way of doing things. A.Z. Louise (00:57:21): Yeah. And the thing is, is that there are so many outlets out there that somewhere that says they take something like slipstream or, um, you know, like surrealism, they would be more likely to pick up something that only has a wisp of speculative elements. So I usually have a large bank of poems. And then when a call for submission comes along, I'll just yeet. But if I have something that I don't know how to place and I really want to that's when it's Submission Grinder time, baby! Rekka (00:57:56): Yeah. That's more poetry, obviously, than we've ever discussed on this podcast. And I loved every minute of it because... This is poetry centric, but I still feel like it's excellent advice getting in there and feeling your words and... Um, letting the reader feel your emotions through them is always good advice because we love when we feel things. A.Z. Louise (00:58:22): Yeah. You read to feel an emotion. Rekka (00:58:25): Yeah. And I think readers enjoy that moment that we referenced earlier when you're like, "Wow, that sentence." I think readers love that too. And um, so it's, it's good for everyone to get in your emotions and to be vulnerable as much as, um, as you think that doesn't feel right when you're going to market and trying to sell something. It's what we're all searching for, is that connection that someone else is feeling that too. And I am, I am feeling all squirmy and happy because I feel like maybe I'm not such a bad poet and maybe I do have some words to share and maybe that story will end up being, you know, a poem that I can share or if not, like I'm like just going to let the words start flowing a little bit more and, and write them down rather than just being like "oh that'd be a good poem." A.Z. Louise (00:59:14): My last thought on that is that some poems I write without meaning to send them anywhere at all. Some are just for you. Rekka (00:59:22): For you. Yeah. I think that's how you can allow yourself to be vulnerable from the get go. If you don't tell yourself like, "Oh, that one line is headed for Strange Horizons." A.Z. Louise (00:59:34): Yeah, and it's healthy to have things that are just for you, it's not healthy to try and monetize everything. As much as we live in capitalism and that's necessary. Rekka (00:59:42): Yay, Capitalism. But you did mention that sometimes you start your poem and it's more like a journal. A.Z. Louise (00:59:46): Yeah. Rekka (00:59:47): And, um, that's, I think that's healthy. That's a healthy way to approach any writing project is like, "this doesn't have to sell if I just want to live in it for a little bit. And then later I can decide, um, or..." A.Z. Louise (00:59:59): I have tons of trunked stuff. Rekka (01:00:00): Yeah. Yeah. And, um, it's healthy. A.Z. Louise (01:00:04): Trunk City in this computer. Rekka (01:00:04): Yes. I just really enjoyed that conversation. So thank you so much for coming on. A.Z. Louise (01:00:07): Thank you so much for having me. Rekka (01:00:08): And for all the bonus advice about editing and revising that I wasn't expecting to. A.Z. Louise (01:00:13): I wasn't either. Rekka (01:00:15): Thank you so much for coming on, A.Z. I really had fun. A.Z. Louise (01:00:17): Thank you, me too. Rekka (01:00:33): Thank you, everyone for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @WMBcast, same for Instagram or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. Rekka (01:01:00): If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand. And what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast, too. Of course you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

Audio Note: Rekka's puppy, Evie, joins us for this episode and there is the sound of a squeak toy and a jangling collar during the episode. If you or a pet in your vicinity would be unsettled by this, it might be best to listen at low volume this time, or just stick to reading the transcript. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Links for this episode: WMBCast Episode 26: Satisfying Endings American Girl Books (Molly, Kirsten, Felicity, and Samantha's seem to be out of print but Addy's are still available) The Chronicles Of Ghadid series by K.A. Doore Gods Of Jade And Shadow by Silvia Moreno-Garcia Until The End Of The World series by Sarah Lyons Fleming Transcript for Episode 54: (All inaccuracies are Rekka's fault)   Rekka (00:01):Welcome back to we make books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:09):I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And, um, let's, let's start with the elephant in the— well, the dog in the room, as it were, we have a special— Rekka (00:18):She sounds like an elephant sometimes, let me tell you. Not when she barks, but when she's stomping around, Kaelyn (00:22):We have a special guest on today's episode. Rekka's new — Rekka (00:26):And we should have had a video pod, video cast, but, um, cause her most endearing quality is her face, but you're going to hear the less endearing qualities a couple times through the episode. Kaelyn (00:36):Yeah, Rekka's uh, still fairly newish puppy, Evie, is joining us today. Rekka (00:40):She's seven months old. We've had her for three months. She was so well-behaved right up until we started recording. At the moment. She is biting my leg and trying to chew through my headphone cord. So, um... Kaelyn (00:53):She just has a lot of opinions on things because here's the thing. Rekka (00:56):She has a multi-faceted personality. This facet is very sharp! Kaelyn (01:01):In her short life, Evie's actually had a pretty happy ending. Rekka (01:05):Well, hopefully not an ending, but currently at this, if we were to close the last chapter of the book right here, and of course it would be a series so she can continue on. Um, yes. Well, she's not very happy, right this moment. I mean, she wouldn't be biting me if she were. Kaelyn (01:20):Well, it's a good rags to riches story, you know? Rekka (01:22):She is trying to make my jeans into rags at this moment. Kaelyn (01:26):She went from a porch somewhere, tied up on a porch, somewhere to a house with lots of toys, people to pay attention to her, and a nice fireplace. Rekka (01:34):Very expensive dog food. Kaelyn (01:36):So, um, yeah, today we're talking about happy endings. Do you need one? What is a happy ending? What does that even mean? What is, what makes it a happy ending? Rekka (01:46):This was a listener question. So, um, you know, thank you to people who chimed in when, uh, Kaelyn and I weren't sure what we were going to talk about today. We, uh, reached out and got a bunch of suggestions and I think we're covered for like the next half year or so. So today, Kaelyn was in the mood for a happy story and wanted to talk about how, or if she was in the mood to, um, completely disparage happy endings. It's hard to tell. Kaelyn (02:10):It's been a week, everyone. Rekka (02:10):She is a huge fan of epic fantasy, which means, you know, that gritty-kill-your-main-character-halfway-through-surprise-this-ten-book-series-is-about-someone-else. Kaelyn (02:19):I read a novella once, that was like a horror novella, in which the two main characters ended up, sucked into a demon dimension through a shattered mirror. And that was the end of the book, was the girl turning to the guy and going, "No, you don't understand this is it we're stuck here now." Rekka (02:37):I mean. Kaelyn (02:38):It was a happy ending for the thing that was coming to eat them, I guess. Rekka (02:42):But, yeah. So, I mean, without the context of the rest of the story, to me, that doesn't sound very satisfying. That sounds like the inciting incident. So, um, you know— Kaelyn (02:52):Well, we're going to talk about this a little. I think, you know, there's, there's a need that we have sometimes to appease the reader, to, to, you know, "give the people what they want" so to speak. Rekka (03:03):I mean, I like to get what I want. Kaelyn (03:04):Yeah. We all, we all do. Rekka (03:05):Evie likes to get what she wants. Kaelyn (03:08):We all do. But, um, maybe that's not the way the story goes, but it's not an unhappy ending. Rekka (03:16):Yeah. So, you know, we have more to say on this, so let's get that music going and we will talk about it on the other side. Rekka (03:22):[To Evie] Oh, you have a toy. Thank you. [To Kaelyn] She brought me something this time. Sometimes she just comes to me like I've got magical toys in my pockets and I can just pull it out anytime she wants me to throw something. Kaelyn (03:52):I mean, I always assume you have magical toys in your pockets. You frequently are able to produce things to both entice and distract me. Rekka (04:02):Yeah. Ahhh, Okay. So enticing and distracting plot lines that hopefully lead to conclusions, but... Okay, so this, this question came from the audience. Do we have to have happy ending? Kaelyn (04:18):Abso-fucking-lutely not. Okay. End of the episode. Glad we talked about this. Rekka (04:23):We're done! There's Kaelyn's opinion. Kaelyn (04:25):Well, when Rekka and I were, you know, getting prepared for this and when we were talking about this episode, Rekka made, I think a very important distinction, which is, you know, there's two different kinds of happy endings here. There's, you know, does your main character or your protagonist, whoever get an ending that they want? Get something that is for them as the character satisfying and fulfilling? And then there's also, well, does the reader feel good when they close the book? What have you done to the reader here? Rekka (04:56):Yeah, I mean—and of course, this has a lot to do with genre and preference because there are people who want to be ripped apart and destroyed by the books they read. Kaelyn (05:05):Yeah if you're writing— If you're writing romance novels, somebody had better end up happy at the end. Rekka (05:11):Right. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a law. That's not even a guideline. Kaelyn (05:15):People read those books for a specific reason. The payoff needs to be there. Rekka (05:20):Right. Kaelyn (05:20):So to speak, um, Rekka (05:21):You got to hit that G-spot ending. Kaelyn (05:23):Yeah. Thank you. Rekka (05:25):You're welcome. Kaelyn (05:25):We, we could do this all day. Rekka (05:28):I don't think I could. Kaelyn (05:29):We're going to, we're going to look at it in these two different ways. You know, the main character versus the reader. Rekka, you can't do this. It's really distracting. Rekka (05:37):But it's keeping her from biting me. Do we tell the listeners what I'm doing or we just, uh? Kaelyn (05:46):Uh, yeah. So for those, for those listening at home, Rekka has stepped away from her desk a little bit and is dancing with her puppy to try to keep her happy and entertained. And it's very, very adorable. Rekka (06:00):She's standing on my shoes and moving her feet with my feet. Kaelyn (06:06):So, um— God, podcasting in the pandemic, people. Rekka (06:09):Podcasting with puppies. Kaelyn (06:09):This, this is what we, what happens. Rekka (06:13):This is my best life. Kaelyn (06:15):So yeah, there's, you know, there's two different specific ways to think about this. You know, we've got the main character, we've got the reader. Let's talk about the main character a little bit first before we get into all of the, you know, emotional reader kind of stuff. Um, does a main character have to have a happy ending? No, they don't. Um, a lot of them, a lot of books, main character just dies. I mean, you know, for most people that's probably not a happy ending for the main character. Rekka (06:44):Some main characters are the villain. Kaelyn (06:46):Sometimes the main character's the villain. We did a whole episode on books having a satisfying ending. And I want to take a moment and distinguish between what we're talking about, in terms of a happy ending versus satisfying ending. Um, go back, listen to the satisfying ending episode. We talked a lot about, it was very series driven, um, you know, with how you wrap up a series and make sure that, you know, you've covered all your bases and the make the reader feel as though reading this was time well spent and not an exercise in frustration. That has more to do with storytelling and writing technique. In this case, we're talking about, you know, does everything need to work out perfectly in the book in order for it to be a satisfying ending? And no, of course it doesn't. Very rarely is a book compelling if everything ends exactly the way the main character or the protagonist wanted it to when it starts, because what's the point of the book? What's the point of the story and the journey? Rekka (07:43):Yeah. That kind of defies the character arc itself. Like, because we frequently say your main character is going to find out what they thought they wanted in the beginning is not what they find out is actually going to make them happy at the end. And using that H word again. But like, if your character is going to change throughout your book and not be like an Indiana Jones or a Han Solo — and even Han Solo kind of changes his mind over the course of the three movies. But if you are going to make your main character get the ending they wanted from page one, then there isn't a story [ed.: Meant to say "character"] arc. Kaelyn (08:22):Well, it's also, yeah, it's, you know, I was, I was talking with a friend about this recently and I was describing, you know, the way you break down, um, you know, particular thing. And I said, okay, well you introduce the character, you establish the setting. And then you talk about the problem. And he was like "the problem?" And I was like, "yeah, there's always a problem. Because if the book is just about how happy everybody is, and there are no problems, that's not really very compelling reading." So to that end as Rekka mentioned, maybe the thing they wanted isn't what's going to make them happy. Maybe, you know, they need something in order to save somebody else. Maybe they're questing for a specific mythical object that's going to save their town. They can still get those things, and it's a compelling story, but getting there—the whole path along the way—it's like, there's going to be some bodies, essentially. Rekka (09:13):There are always bodies, especially in Kaelyn's warpath. Kaelyn (09:17):I am a big fan of killing off characters and, uh, you know, using that both as a way to re motivate or drive main characters or force them to reevaluate what they're doing. Rekka (09:30):Or clear the slate so that you can start the plot over again. Kaelyn (09:33):Yeah. Or that that's fine too. Rekka's referring to A Song of Ice and Fire, essentially. But, you know, along those lines, um, I think that that was, you know, obviously in a lot of mainstream, um, fiction, apart from horror and maybe, you know, kind of like psychological thriller, you had pretty much everybody get through everything intact. Um, I don't remember reading a ton of stuff, you know, Young Adult or even adult Adult growing up where, you know, the group of friends and all of the group of friends [ed. didn't] survive. And that's, that's, I think become more rare these days. Now, if you have a group of friends that are starting off in a story, you know, there's a very, very good chance that not all of them are getting out of it alive. Rekka (10:20):So the ending needs to be a compelling conclusion to what the character was trying to accomplish, which is to say that it has to wrap everything up because if they don't, if the main character gets nothing of what their goals were, what they were trying to accomplish, that's not the end of the book. Then they either have to die [ed.: with] it not being complete, or they have to keep going. Otherwise, you know, you're telling half a story. There, there needs to be some sort of a conclusion. Now it does not need to be a happy one, but it needs to either satisfy or totally frustrate to the point that, you know, you're killing someone off or imprisoning them or making them so they can't continue on here. Rekka (11:10):Well, when you say frustrate as — this is gonna be great, she does not usually squeak this toy — You mean frustrate as in "impede," not frustrate as in "make mad," Kaelyn (11:26):Yes. Yes. Yeah, frustrated as in "impede." Rekka (11:26):Because if a character is frustrated, they're going to be motivated. But if they're frustrated in terms of like what they're able to do, because their ability is impeded, such as they die, which is what Kaelyn is really going for, then that's different. Kaelyn (11:45):It's not the only way to, you know, impede a character's progress. It can be, you know, maybe they're not dead. Maybe they're just mostly dead, or in a coma, or imprisoned somewhere, or, you know, removed from the storyline in a way that what they were trying to do is no longer relevant. You know, like if you're dealing with like, uh, some kind of intergalactic, uh, space military, they've been reassigned, this isn't your problem anymore. But, then it's gotta be someone else's problem because the problem didn't just go away. You know, to kind of, to kind of wrap this up in terms of, you know, your main character, they need to make some kind of measurable progress that they are happy with. I think is a good way to say it. Rekka (12:30):Gotta have that denouement feeling at the end. You know, like I can sit back for a little while, like I can go take a vacation or I can have a breather. Um, I can go to the throne room and collect my medal. You know, like something I've done has brought this segment of my adventure to an end. Kaelyn (12:51):And, and by the way, this doesn't even necessarily have to be your main character. It's the, the ending, you know, the happy ending, the completed ending. I think maybe sometimes you're better served looking at that in terms of resolving the problem, the conflict, the quest in some way, maybe it's not the main character that does it. Maybe they don't get exactly what they want, but the plot elements that set all of this in motion are resolved. Rekka (13:21):Yeah. That's a good point. Like I put this in, in terms of, um, which personality gets what they want? Like the main character or the reader, neither or both, either or, but you're right. It's not a character that gets what they want. It's a story that gets the ending it deserves. Kaelyn (13:40):Yeah, exactly. Speaking of the reader getting what they want. Like, that's an excellent question, Rekka. Do we have to make the reader happy? Rekka (13:47):Do you want them to pick up the next book you write? Kaelyn (13:49):Trick question! We don't care about readers and their feelings. We want them to cry. All the time. Rekka (13:54):Well if the reader wants to cry, we want them to cry. We want the reader to have the experience that they think they signed on for. You don't want them to think they came in for a happy ending and then kill everyone and raze the ground after. Kaelyn (14:08):I think everybody listening to this can think of at least one, probably multiple books, off the top of their head that they put down and they were like physically shaken by. Which, by the way, that's the sign of a great book, and a very talented writer. Rekka (14:26):I mean, you can be visibly shaken by happiness. Kaelyn (14:29):Yes. Yes. Rekka (14:31):In fact, I wouldn't mind some of that. Kaelyn (14:34):So, you know, in terms of, do you need to make the reader happy? No, of course not. It, you know, that might not be what you're trying to do. You might not be trying to make the reader happy. You might be trying to make them think, you might be trying to make them angry. You might be trying to leave them—you know, especially if you're doing a series—you may trying to leave them going, you know, incredulous, wondering what is going on here, what could be happening next? This notion that we need to, um, you know, kind of make the reader happy, I don't know where it comes from. So many storytelling traditions before, like fiction was, you know, something beyond like fairy tales and myths and legends and oral histories and traditions and everything. A lot of those don't have good outcomes, you know? And granted, many of them were used for lesson teaching or, you know, to show how clever somebody was or wasn't, if we're talking about like legends and myths, you know, they're used to demonstrate the might of a religion or the gods of that religion. Um, and the mortals are just pawns in it, so nobody really cares how they, how they feel. Um, you know, epic tales, a lot of times, aren't so much about the reader being happy about it, as it is telling a history through a story. So I really don't know where this notion of like a happy ending came from. I imagine it's something that emerged from like a post-war... Rekka (16:06):It was a bunch of parents deciding that they were tired of their children crying instead of sleeping at the end of story hour. Kaelyn (16:13):Yeah. You know what, that's not unfair thing to think about. So, do you have to leave your reader happy? Well, it depends. What kind of a story are you writing? Are you writing a story where you want everybody to kind of walk away feeling good, to feel like "I was with them that whole time and Oh boy, did they do awesome and kick ass, and now we all went through this ride together and this is going to be, this was great." Rekka (16:39):"Their success is my success." Kaelyn (16:41):"I, I feel better for having read this book." Rekka (16:45):And I guess that's the question. We've, we've danced around it a little bit, but like a happy ending: is it something that leaves you feeling happy, or is it something that leaves you feeling like the adventure was worth the journey and you're happy you read the book? Kaelyn (17:04):I think, uh, a good sign of a compelling book, a compelling story, is that nobody is necessarily a hundred percent happy at the end of it. You know, the characters and the reader are both like, "well, I'm glad everything worked out for them, but I'm really sad that these other things happened to them along the way." Rekka (17:23):In Chronicles of Ghadid by K A Doore, which is a series that is now concluded, so I'm going to still try not to spoil it cause it's very good and you should read it. Kaelyn (17:33):I haven't read it yet, and it's on my list. Rekka (17:33):So I'm not going to spoil it for Kaelyn. Um, in that series, we lose characters. We lose beloved things. We lose beloved places. Um, shit goes real wrong, and still, the books are satisfying in terms of my happiness having read them, even though I am miserable for the characters and terribly angry with K A Doore. Rekka (18:02):Counter to that in Gods Of Jade And Shadow by Sylvia Moreno-Garcia, there is a plot line that feels like a building romance. And, um, at the risk of spoiling it, it's not quite, I mean, it's not the plot spoiler, but it is character relationship spoiler. The characters don't end up together, as you wouldn't imagine they could at the beginning, but you start to have hope through the middle. And then at the end, um, the characters get exactly what they were trying to get. But at the same time, you're no longer happy that they got it. So it's, it's not a bait and switch. It's not a, it turns out they needed something else. So they got something else. And I mean, they kind of did, it's hard to describe. It's a really good book. You should definitely read it. Um, it's it was a quick read. I tore through this book and it's, um, it's just got really good story elements too. So definitely go check that one out. Um, but yeah, the, the characters start out wanting one thing and that's the thing they get at the end, but in the middle, there's a whole plot line of them sort of developing other goals that don't quite work out, which sounds like it'd be really unsatisfying, but it's not at all. It's, it's fantastic. Kaelyn (19:36):It's very difficult, you know, to predict what kind of emotions your books are going to invoke and people beyond, you know, the, the general like, "everybody got what they wanted and this worked out well. So that will make the reader happy." "I killed off everybody except last girl. And, uh, it was really sad and described in gruesome detail that will make everybody sad and slightly nauseated." Now, all of the said, I definitely think there is a trend in trying to make sure things don't work out well and perfectly for everybody because we've got this thing in our head that that's not good storytelling, either. Rekka (20:20):Right? If you don't confound your characters and force them to like, stay on their back heel, then what are you doing? Are you even plotting? Kaelyn (20:29):"Are you even plotting?" Um, you know, somebody accomplishes their goal, but like they can't accomplish it with no loss along the way. No, um, you know, something bad happening to them. Um, I don't necessarily think that is a hard and fast rule that, you know, you can't let everybody have everything they want. Um, I'll use the example of like one of the greatest cartoons ever made—which yes, it's technically a children's cartoon, but let's be honest, it's for everyone—is Avatar: The Last Airbender. Avatar: The Last Airbender is, I think, a good example of a satisfying happy ending. That is very good storytelling. Now, granted, you know, this, like, it is a children's show, it aired on Nickelodeon. Um— Rekka (21:14):And it also deals with genocide. So... Kaelyn (21:17):Yeah, there, it deals with some, some really heavy themes. Here's the thing though, with the genocide, we don't actually see any of that, you know, so we can say like, all of the air benders were killed a hundred years ago, but like, we're not going to make the kids sit through it. Rekka (21:32):But we did have to sit through Aang discovering it. Kaelyn (21:35):Yes, we did. Rekka (21:36):Which was not any easier. Kaelyn (21:37):That was awful. Um, you know, we have to hear about general Iroh's son dying, but again, we just hear that he died and we see him, you know— Rekka (21:46):Mourning him. Kaelyn (21:47):—but they didn't kill anyone off, even the Fire Lord. And what was really cool was they actually discussed, "why did you leave him alive?" Rekka (21:58):Right. Kaelyn (21:59):You know, Azula also makes it through alive. I won't say intact, but alive. Um, everyone's love lives or relatively figured out, Rekka (22:09):Everyone gets paired off appropriately. Kaelyn (22:11):Iroh gets to open his tea shop. Zuko becomes the Fire Lord. He and Aang are best friends and ends up with Katara, uh, whatever Momo was looking for, I'm sure he eventually got. You know, there were characters that had to deal with loss in their— Kaelyn (22:26):Cabbages. Kaelyn (22:26):The cabbages. Ugh. Cabbages. Um, there were characters that had to deal with loss in there, but it all happened before we met them, pretty much. Aang being the exception there. So we get to the end, and everything kind of works out the way they want it to. Rekka (22:44):Well, I mean, Zuko never gets the approval of his father. Kaelyn (22:47):Yes. But Zuko realized he doesn't need the approval of his father. Rekka (22:51):So it's a happy ending, even though he didn't get what he wanted from page one? Kaelyn (22:55):Yes. Because he's happy because he knows that his father's approval is worthless and he should not want it because look at Azula. If anybody is listening to this and has not watched Avatar: The Last Airbender, stop what you're doing right now and go watch Avatar: The Last Airbender. Rekka (23:11):Not because we don't want to spoil it, because I'm sorry, we are outside the window. Kaelyn (23:14):This series concluded quite a while ago. And then it's been on Netflix for a long, for a long time. And everybody's been inside with nowhere to go. Rekka (23:23):Yeah, we want you to go watch it because it is totally worth watching. Kaelyn (23:26):Yes. Even, you know, even if you know how it ends, it's still totally worth watching. But anyway, like it ends very happily. You know, there's... Rekka (23:35):There's a sense of satisfaction. There's a sense of peace. There's a sense of, uh, resolution. Kaelyn (23:42):Yes. And I think they're able to do that because we've seen the characters try so many things and just fail repeatedly. If the humor present in this show was not there, this would have been really difficult to watch. Because everything they try, everything they do fails horribly, and in spectacular fashion in some cases. So that happy ending works, you know, they've got what they wanted, but was it worth it? Or now I'm miserable. Rekka (24:13):At what cost? Kaelyn (24:16):Yes. Yes. There is– There's very little at what cost factor in the end of Avatar: The Last Airbender. And it's still a great ending. Rekka (24:25):The funny thing is the "at what cost" from The Last Airbender is part of the throughline of the story. You know, go to the Earth Kingdom and the Earth Kingdom has preserved itself, but at what cost? Kaelyn (24:40):Yes. Rekka (24:41):You know, the, the water tribes are still there, but there has been a great cost. So it's, it's interesting the order of the, the loss and the "at what cost" that happens in that story, that still creates a very dynamic world with lots of, um, impactful events and impactful characters and impactful plot points and emotions. But it doesn't happen in what people seem to be veering towards where the "at what cost" comes to the end. Kaelyn (25:14):Sometimes even just the point of getting what you're trying to get to, or obtain, is enough to kind of make a compelling ending that is still a happy one, but clearly the character, the protagonist, has come out changed for this. Rekka (25:33):And the question is, um, I think, is the happy ending one where our values judge the main character to be better now than they were at the start? Kaelyn (25:48):Yeah. This is a thing to keep in mind, you know, in terms of the readers, like a happy ending is not the same for everyone. I can't tell you how many books I've finished, where I have one, two, three characters in my head where I go, "they should have killed that one." There was, you know, it would have enriched the story. It would have, you know, made the decisions that were made more interesting, compelling or clear cut. Um, I, you know, I, I'm definitely one of those people that wants to see a little bit of blood and loss along the way, um, Rekka (26:25):Kaelyn is heartless. Kaelyn (26:28):Well, we know this I'm an editor, Rekka. I have a giant red pen. Rekka (26:32):But why do the obstacles for character have to be blood and loss? Like, why does that satisfy you, personally, more than just frustration and obstacles? Kaelyn (26:43):Exactly. And that's what I was about to say is, this is going to be different for everybody. For me, I look at a lot of this in terms of death and relationships. You know, either relationships being destroyed or ended by death, or, you know, people having to, um, you know, separate and will not see each other again, you know, sort of like those kinds of scenarios. I am very relationship-driven with this kind of stuff. So for me, that's compelling. Not everyone may feel that way. So no matter what you do, the book is going to come across differently for, you know, for everyone. Rekka (27:22):Should we give, um, people some perspective? Um, what is a book that you have really enjoyed lately? You know, just to make it like, so they get the context of where we're coming from. Kaelyn (27:33):Well, here's an example, actually, this is, um, the series is called Until The End Of The World. And it's— these books came out a while ago. I just discovered them at some point. Um, it's about a zombie apocalypse. It's about a group of friends living in New York City. Um, and a zombie apocalypse begins, as is wont to happen in, in New York. Um, in this book, characters are just constantly being killed off in really terrible, brutal ways. And what's very interesting about it is that, every time this is happening, the characters are having to reassess and re-establish relationships. Um, there's—God, I really wish I could talk about all this stuff that happens in this, because it's really interesting the way, you know, the loss compounds and drives the story. But at the same time, the characters are at the mercy of their world, which is full of zombies. Kaelyn (28:38):So there's only so much that they can do and that is impacting them more than anything. And it keeps taking things from them and they just have to keep trying to gather the pieces and rebuild both not only in, you know, their survival and their ability to survive, but also their personal relationships. Um, I like how we see these characters that, when somebody dies—and it's not just the main character, we see this with her friends too—there's sort of like a swap. There's like, well, this person's going to fulfill this role for me now. When we get to the end of the book—again, I won't say what happens—but it ends in a very surprising way. We're—technically yes, they have gotten to what they need to get to. They've accomplished what they set out to do. And, personally, the main character is even in a satisfying, happy place. But you look back on how they got there and the writer, through the main character has the wherewithal to say that like, "I can't try to get things back to how they were. They're never going back to how they were. This is my life now. So I'm going to be happy with this." Rekka (29:52):But that is the, um, the 25%, the arc shift of a book is, we can't go back. Kaelyn (29:57):Yes, exactly. Yeah. There was, I mean, like I was reading this book and like, you know, I'm, I don't cry much at things, I was reading this on the—this is to tell you how long ago I read this—I was on the subway when I was reading it. Um, and something happened and I missed my stop because I was crying. I was like, borderline ugly, crying, tears, running down my cheeks. I can't imagine what everyone around me thought. Rekka (30:27):I remember being like, I don't know, maybe 11 or 12 or something. Maybe not even that old, but I was reading a book, and of course it was about horses and, um, and I was sobbing. And, um, my father walks by, and I don't know if he'd ever seen me cry that wasn't the result of like an injury or, you know, like a blood sugar drop. And so he's just like, "are you okay? What's wrong?" And I'm like, "it's just this book." He said, "you've read that before." I'm like, "I know, I love it a lot!" Kaelyn (31:02):Um, another example I'll give.... um, Rekka, did you ever read any of the American Girl books growing up? Rekka (31:07):Oh my God. Like pretty much every one that came out until I stopped collecting them. Kaelyn (31:12):Yeah. And they're really good. Yeah. Rekka (31:16):They're actually like really great studies in, in like, simple but effective stories. Yeah. Kaelyn (31:21):Um, you know, the way, so, uh, for those who aren't familiar, you know, the American girl series was, um, it started with three of them and it was about, I think all of the girls were 10. Rekka (31:33):Yeah. They're all the same age. And it all happens on a year that ends in four. And that like, they have a formula, but each girl has her own specific life experience and world situation and geopolitical situation too. Kaelyn (31:48):Yeah. It's... Every girl is growing up in a different time period in American history. So Molly is growing up during World War II. Samantha is growing up in Victorian New York. Kirsten is a Swedish immigrant coming over to America in the early 1900s. Addy is a slave on a farm in the South. Felicity was Colonial America at the start of the revolutionary war. Every one, you know, every book is "Meet So and So" then the next book is "So-and-So Learns a Lesson." Then the next one is the birthday one. The last book is always "Changes for, you know, Whoever." Rekka (32:22):And then there's some big shift in their life. Like for Molly, the war ended and her father came home. Uh, Kirsten managed to buy her family a house. Kaelyn (32:30):Yes. Um, characters keep coming to a satisfying ending where you're happy for them and they've made progress and feel good about the story. But then you go back and look at the story and go, "Oh dear God." Um, Addy is a slave on a plantation, um, with her grandparents, her mother, her father, brother, and baby sister, and the— this is the first book by the way. And this was meant for children, and don't get me wrong, I'm glad it was because it's, you know, something everybody — Rekka (33:03):Yeah, they tackle a lot, just like Avatar, they don't back off the serious subjects. Kaelyn (33:07):Oh, they, they did not pull their punches on this. Um, so she's a slave on a tobacco plantation and it's 1864. So it's towards the end of the Civil War. And looking back on it as adult, you can read in between the lines and see like the plantation owners are getting worried about what's happening and so they're doing things. So her father and her brother get sold and Addy ends up getting whipped for interfering and trying to stop it. And I think there's also some interesting, subtle things in there about somebody who is interesting in purchasing Addy, for maybe not just working in the house. Rekka (33:41):Yeesh. Yeah. Kaelyn (33:44):So her mother decides they have to run away. And not only do they have to leave the grandparents, they have to leave the baby because the baby could cry. I read this now and say that the mother decided she had to run away to protect Addy from some things that I think they were maybe trying to infer was going on there. The end of the first book, they successfully make it out of the South. Um, you know, there's a nice little history, interesting, about the underground railroad and they end up in Philadelphia. Um, so there's this joyous moment of they've made it, they're in Philadelphia, but also her father and brother had been sold. They have no idea where they are. The grandparents have been left with the baby. The grandparents are absolutely going to be punished because Addy and her mother ran away, and they've had to give up their lives and family and, you know, to try and get away to what they hope is a better one. It's– I know there, they're, they're definitely children's books, but if you can find them somewhere, they're very good. Rekka (34:46):Oh yeah. They're still, they're still out there. And, um, it is impressive, the topics that they were ready to tackle back when they wrote them, where a lot of major corporations designed around selling dolls might not have gone there. Kaelyn (35:04):Yeah. Um, the, you know, there there's so many American Girls now there's like, I think there's like over a dozen and you know, all different time periods and places and everything. Um, but I think that's a good example of, "I was happy at the end of all of these books because good things were happening to Addy." But again, at what cost? You know, her life had been terrible. So just because a few good things was happening and I, the reader was going, "yes, I feel better about this, doesn't mean that it was—" Rekka (35:43):We're still back to "at what cost?" Kaelyn (35:45):Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But that is to say that you can come up with a happy and satisfying ending, even if everything is not neatly wrapped up and finished, you know, in a pretty little bow. Rekka (35:56):And I do like a story that ends with a few loose ends, because even if there's not a series, you—or I—enjoy the notion that this world, the curtain doesn't drop and everybody takes off their costumes. Kaelyn (36:10):Exactly. Rekka (36:11):And when there are pieces to pick up from a satisfying yet messy ending, that gives you the space to imagine where these characters are going next. Kaelyn (36:23):Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, that's, that's kind of my, my ending thought here is that, you know, imagining them as real people who are going to have lives and things after this, you know, like, you know, look at, look at your own life. Like I will tell you, like, I'm a fairly happy person, you know, I'm, I'm pretty good. Does that mean everything's perfect? No, absolutely not. Did I not fall asleep until three the other morning? Of course I didn't because I was worrying about, about things. But that doesn't mean that, you know, I'm unhappy or have a bad life or things are not going the way I want them to. Rekka (37:00):yep. same. Kaelyn (37:00):You know, having your characters. I think get to that point in a book is what's gonna, you know, and again, this will not be the same for everyone. These emotions will not translate across the board exactly the same for everybody. Rekka (37:11):But the point is there. To the character, this is not the end. Kaelyn (37:15):Yes. Rekka (37:16):Like they may have done a thing, but they intend to try and go to sleep that night and not stay awake til 3:00 AM. And they intend to get up the next day and carry on and do something. So if your ending doesn't feel like the curtains are going to fall and trumpets are going to blare and everything's perfect and nothing else needs to change, then that is just super realistic. No matter what scale you're doing it on. Kaelyn (37:44):Yeah, exactly. So do you need a happy ending? I will go back to, uh, my original statement. Abso-fucking-lutely not. Rekka (37:51):So you're saying this episode could have been three minutes long. Kaelyn (37:54):I, I said that right at the start. Rekka (37:58):Yeah, that's true. You did. Kaelyn (37:58):Um, no you don't, but you know, go back and listen to our satisfying endings episode. Rekka (38:04):It's going to tackle a lot of this. Um, the question specific today was just, do the characters have to be happy at the end? Does the reader have to be happy at the end? Do you have to have a happy ending versus the broader how to make a satisfying ending? Because it might not feel like those two things are the same. Kaelyn (38:25):And look a happy ending to you might not be the same as it is to everybody else. I like to have something on in the background while I'm working. So I tend to cycle through Netflix shows that I've watched a ton of times and I've been just, had Lucifer on in the background. And for those not familiar, again, definitely watch it. But, uh, one of the demons in it is having a conversation with her friend about behaving inappropriately in a movie. And they had gone to see Marley & Me, and she didn't understand that it wasn't a comedy. Well, the end wasn't well, the movie was a comedy, but the ending was the end of the comedic part of that. So, um, that's, that's, um, that's about everything I have to say on that happy endings. You know, romance, unless you're writing romance and that I've got a lot more jokes to— Rekka (39:09):Well, also the advice changes, so yeah,you kind of do have to have a happy ending. So it really does go back to genre. But in terms of like, if your story is not headed for a happy ending, it might adjust what genre you decided to list it in. But if your story is going there, and it's satisfying, then go along. And that's our final word on it. Kaelyn (39:30):Yeah. Was that a happy ending to this episode? Rekka (39:33):Um, it is if you make your next appointment on time. Kaelyn (39:35):You know what is always good to do, after a happy ending, is leave a rating or review of a book or maybe a podcast? Rekka (39:43):Yes. So if this episode, um, settled your mind or confused you more, leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts and, uh, that will help other people find us. Even if you weren't happy, it will still help the algorithms figure out who would be happy, listening to our podcast all the way through to the end and um... Kaelyn (40:00):If you're not happy, tell us why you're not happy. Rekka (40:02):Yeah. And if it has anything to do with the dog in the background, I promise that will be less frequent in the future. All right. So we are @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram and you can message us there. You can put questions anywhere that you can find us, and we will answer them in future episodes. And thanks to the listener who gave us today's question. I hope it was a happy ending that answered your question. The End. Kaelyn (40:31):And they lived happily ever after. Rekka (40:33):At least for two weeks until our next episode. Kaelyn (40:36):Thanks everyone. We'll see you in two weeks.  

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Transcript: Kaelyn (00:00):Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:09):And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R J Theodore. Kaelyn (00:13):Would you call that your title? Rekka (00:14):No. It's a name. Kaelyn (00:15):Oh, okay. Rekka (00:19):But you can name a book by giving it a title. Kaelyn (00:21):Mine's a title. Rekka (00:22):Well, yes. You, you provided a title. I did not say, "I am Rekka, author." Kaelyn (00:27):Yes. That would be your title. So, um, well today we're talking about titles, uh, books. They need them. Rekka (00:33):Better titles than just a job description. Kaelyn (00:37):Yes, than just that. Um, you know, this is how people are going to find your book. A weird thing is if you don't give a book a name and you just kind of like put it on a shelf, it makes it really hard for people to find, be that shelf physical or digital. Rekka (00:49):Yeah. You definitely need it. You need something that somebody can find your book by. So how about a title and then how do you pick it? How long should it be? Kaelyn (00:57):Yeah. Titles seem like one of those things that are very easy and in some cases they are, but when they are not easy, they are very difficult. Rekka (01:07):And sometimes you can just get like a total mental block about like what you call your book, even though you've spent years, potentially, with this book and you know, every word because you've written it three times over, you know, like sometimes it's just really hard to say, like, "how do I encapsulate the experience of reading this book in a few words, that's somebody who's going to understand who hasn't already read the book?" Kaelyn (01:30):Exactly. Yeah. So, um, you know, we talk a lot about things that titles should do, how they should serve the book and how they're being used to market your book and make sure it finds its way into the hands of the reader that's most going to enjoy it. As always, we hope you enjoy and we'll see you on the other side of the music. Kaelyn (02:01):Oh yeah. Well the rogue star just keeps going. You're not orbiting the rogue star. Rekka (02:05):No, no, no, no. I know, but it pulls you off your orbit and then you're moving. And if you are on a planet without propulsion, you are at the whim of that. I'm talking about generational ships where like there's some agency in which direction you're headed. Kaelyn (02:19):Well, like I wonder if we hit Jupiter, like we approach Jupiter at the right angle, if we could end up just coming into orbit around Jupiter. Not that that would be especially good. But anyway, so Rekka, what would you call this book? Rekka (02:38):Um, well, let's see. It sounds like it's science fiction, so it should probably be... Galaxy's Orphan. Kaelyn (02:47):Oh, that's a good one. Thanks. Could you just come up with that off the top of your head? Rekka (02:51):Well, based on our conversation, but yeah, I'm pretty good at titles. I have been told that I'm pretty good at titles. Kaelyn (02:56):You are, you are very good at titles. I have personal experience with that. Today we're talking about titles and books and like how you wrote all of this thing and now you've got to call it something. Yeah. Titles are incredibly important because if no other reason it's how people find your book. Rekka (03:11):Right. And it's, um, it's gotta be memorable. Like that is just, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've had to go find a post that somebody posted so I can remember the name of the title of the book that they were raving about, because the title of the book just is not sticking with me. Kaelyn (03:30):Yeah. So, well, let's talk about that real quick, because we're going to, we're going to go through a few things here about, you know, what your title should do, but, you know, in terms of one-word bullet points, what your title should be so memorable. Certainly. Um, and I said one word bullet points, but it's actually. Rekka (03:48):She immediately lied, Kaelyn (03:49):But I lied. Um, easy to say and pronounce. Um, this is, you know, if this is a book written in English, try to keep the words to English as much as you can. I understand that, in fantasy and science fiction, sometimes you're going to want to throw the name of like a, you know, a fictional place or object or something in there, but we will, we will get to that and how you should do that and when that's appropriate. Um, but you know, if that name is or place is like 32 letters long that shouldn't be in your title. Come up with a different title. Rekka (04:23):Yeah. And you know, if somebody is spreading the news of your book by mouth, you want it to be translatable to when that person goes and searches for the book, by typing it into the keyboard. Like they know how to spell the word that they heard. Even if the word they heard wasn't, uh, daunting. When you sit down to type it suddenly you're stuck. Kaelyn (04:46):Um, so your title should also indicate to the potential reader, what kind of a book? This is, um, there's two ways to do that. Genre and tone. So genre, you know, we'll get a little more into that later in this, but not every book is going to immediately establish the genre by the title. But if that's something that's important to you, that's certainly a factor to take in consideration. And it should also kind of set the tone of the book. Um, if this is, you know, sort of like a dark fantasy or like a horror, you know, novel, the title should reflect that, Rekka (05:23):Not include the word "bubbles," maybe. Kaelyn (05:25):Yeah. Very little mention of unicorns and luck dragons and things like that. Regular dragons, fine, but you know, not luck dragons. Um, and the last thing that is very, very important and has to, where you combine all these together is, this needs to be unique because your book needs to be easily searchable. This is not always possible. I, I can't tell you how many books there are that have the same or similar titles out there or rearrangements of the same words. Rekka (06:00):Yup. There's a children's book called Flotsam that, uh, comes up, uh—for a while there we were going back and forth in the number one search position for the word on Amazon. And you know, it's a children's book. So if say my mom, you know, tells a friend about my book, they might buy the children's book because it's not like my mom was a science fiction reader who was recommending to another science fiction enthusiast, a book. This was, you know, mom telling a friend that their child wrote a book. You know? So, um, if, if there's any doubt in the person's mind, they're probably going to go for the first search result. And if that's not you, then your title not being unique, did not do you any favors. But there's also just the combination of words. If you have your title is, um, one or two words, but it fits into someone else's title that's three or four words, then you're going to be, you know, getting tangled up with their search results as well. Kaelyn (06:57):This is for instance, not a good time to put out a book called Wintery Winds. If you put that into Google, it's immediately going to ask you, "did you mean The Winds of Winter?" Rekka (07:12):And you might go, "Oh, maybe, I don't know. Someone said it on a bus one time." Kaelyn (07:15):"I don't know like, this book, Wintery Winds, I heard it was really good." Being aware of how easy it is to find your book. And now part of this also will depend on your name. Um, if your name is John Smith, first of all, you may want to come up with a pen name for writing, but if you're like, "no, my name's John Smith and I'm going to be John Smith, the author." Okay. You need to make sure your books have really unique titles. So along those lines, you know, you're picking a title. How do you start doing this? This is a really daunting prospect. And I should pause and say, you're picking a title and "you," the author here. Rekka (07:55):And that does not mean that this is the title you are going to print with. Kaelyn (07:59):I can't tell you how many submissions I've gotten that had titles that I did not think were accurate representations of the book. And you know, it didn't matter because, you know, we, we just read these and then nothing really came of them. Um, but there's nothing wrong with submitting an untitled manuscript or just giving it, you know, a name and indicating that this is a place holder because you needed something to call it. Rekka (08:27):Although, I would say that any agent or publisher is going to know that your title is a placeholder, because they know that titles change. But if you can exhibit that, you know how good titles work then that might actually be an advantage. Kaelyn (08:48):Agreed. One thing I will tell you that, you know, if you're kind, if it's a place holder or if it's just sort of a generic sounding title, um, that won't make a great impression, it'll make a neutral impression. A bad title will make a bad impression. Rekka (09:05):Yeah. And that's something you can get feedback on from beta readers. And, you know, other writers that you know, is like, "Hey, here's my title. Here's my—" you know, you might give, uh, your, your pitch or your synopsis or something like that. "Like, does this feel like it's the right title to, you know, any thoughts?" Um, but here's the thing, someone who hasn't read it is not going to know the details. And if you, like, I do, um, tend to pull like story elements or something like that to create a title that resonates with the book on multiple levels. Then, um, you know, somebody who hasn't read the book, isn't really going to be able to tell you whether, you know, like workshopping that title just on the surface level. Kaelyn (09:52):Yeah. Rekka's titles have layers. But yeah. So a publisher and agent might say, "Hey, this is a great book. We're really happy. It's done. We're going to call it something else now." Um, this is, you know, like what you envisioned your cover, looking like. Um, the end of the day, well, titles, titles a little bit different, you know, that's a series of words versus a large commissioning of a, of an artistic endeavor. Rekka (10:17):Well, at the same time, it's as important to sales as the cover. Kaelyn (10:21):Exactly. Rekka (10:21):And so you might get as much, or maybe even more pushback from the publisher. If you come to a disagreement about what the title should be. I mean, I think the most important thing to consider when you are trying to pick your title is that the idea is you are trying to reach the reader who is going to love this book and leave it a five-star review. Like that's who you're targeting, right? Kaelyn (10:47):Yes, definitely. Um, we're going to talk about like some tropes and things with, uh, naming titles. And there's a reason they're effective though. It's because that signals to the reader, "Ah, yes, this is something I like." Rekka (10:59):"I am familiar with this format." Kaelyn (11:01):"And also it's telling me something here that I know how to interpret correctly." There's a lot of code in titles. That it's sort of a little inside joke that readers will will know. "Ah yes, this is, this is meant for me to understand, because I like science fiction and therefore I get what's happening here." Rekka (11:17):And that's not the thought process going through their mind, the thought process going through their mind is much more subliminal. I think in that, like when you have, you know, "The X of X and X," that is a comfortable pattern that that reader goes, "Ooh, that one." Kaelyn (11:32):People really like patterns. Rekka (11:34):Yeah. And they gravitate towards familiar patterns. Kaelyn (11:37):Yeah, exactly. So the, the marketing with the title doesn't come so much from the, you know, the actual title itself, it comes from where it's resonating with the readers who are going to like it. Now it's funny because I've had many instances where I've had to tell people the title of a book that like, maybe as a genre, they read a lot. I'm talking mostly about my parents here, you know, say like, "Hey, you know, I know you don't read a lot of science fiction or you read a lot of fantasy, but you might really like this book." And then they're like, "Oh, cool. What's it called?" And I'll have to be like, "The guardians of blah-blah-blah" and have to tell them a title that I'm realizing like, "Oh, somebody doesn't like, that is really not going to appeal to them." Or in some cases it's a very simple, straightforward title and I can trick people into reading. Rekka (12:27):Okay. But here's the thing. Do we want to trick readers into reading a book that they might not like? Kaelyn (12:33):Well, that's the only time I trick readers into that is a, when I think it's something they'd like, and they just need to give it a chance. Rekka (12:40):So you manipulate them. Kaelyn (12:42):No, no. I, um, I do things with their emotions to produce an outcome that I find beneficial to me. Rekka (12:47):Right. Okay. Definitely not manipulation. But, um, but this does bring up the point, like the title is trying to find a reader. It is not necessarily trying to encapsulate the entire story in one phrase. Yeah, exactly. And so you, as an author might feel like "I need to capture my story perfectly and wrap it up in a bow." Whereas your publishers like, "Um, we want, uh, this demographic and people who like this book to pick up this book. And so we care that the title appeals to them for those reasons, not that they're able to immediately connect with your main character before they've even opened the cover." Kaelyn (13:27):Yep. So publishers agents, marketing strategists, they're trying to come up with a title that hits all of those things that we mentioned before, but then also appeals directly to the demographic that you are trying to hit. Um, something that is, you know, a fantasy novel, the title shouldn't be, you know, about like a peanut butter sandwich, unless, you know, it's called "The Magic Peanut Butter Sandwich." Rekka (13:58):Yeah. I mean, it really depends on the tone of your book, but like, think about the silliest, um, fantasy book that you can and, you know, like I go immediately to like the Discworld series. Those titles still had that air of propriety about them. And you just kind of knew, from the series, what you were getting into, if that makes sense. Kaelyn (14:25):Yeah, absolutely. The marketing department with your publisher, what they're going to be doing for a title is, you know, apart from everything that I mentioned before, hitting those marks—it's easy to remember and pronounce, um, it's setting the tone, it's intriguing people. Um, it's easily searchable—they're also going to be aware of things in that particular genre and the demographic that you're targeting that might appeal to people. There are certain, I don't want to call them naming conventions. It's not that, but there are certain tropes, if you will, that you find across a lot of genres and what the signals to people when they're browsing for books and stuff is, you know, they may just have a long list of them and see something and go like, "Oh, hang on. That sounds like a, YA book that sounds like a science fiction book. That sounds like a romance book." Based on the title. Kaelyn (15:17):So that could also be something that is a factor in what your publisher is looking for in a title for your book. So how do you get a good title for a book? What kind of elements in the book are you pulling forward to put into your title? This is hard because, you know, cover art's one thing. That's a picture. You can do a lot with a picture. Um, you know, we were joking in the cover art episode about how like your entire book is limited to this one picture, but like, you can do a lot in that one picture or that design, whatever you're doing for the cover. Um, the title's the title. You can't, you know, it's a, it's a statement of fact in a way, so you're, you're staring down the barrel of this going "well, there's so many important things here that I want the reader to know about this book" and you're writing them all down and then suddenly there's no cover art anymore. It's just a long series of words that you realize you've basically written the summary and now it's on the front and very nice typeset. Rekka (16:15):Although, if this is YA, that is a new style for the covers. So that might work out very well. Like The Invisible Life Of Addie LaRue by V.E. Schwab. Um, that one, the cover is pretty much just a little bit of flourish on the text. I can look behind me and find three or four other, uh, you know, YA titles where that's now the norm. Kaelyn (16:38):Very trending in YA right now. But while doing this, I refer you back to that same list I gave you and take that and apply it to your book. What was really memorable about this book? What are some things in there that you think set the tone, or what IS the tone? Is the tone part of the theme of the book? Is that important? You don't have to have just nouns. These could be verbs, feelings, like maybe some Egyptian hieroglyphics. I don't know. No, don't do that because it violates "easily searchable." Rekka (17:11):Yes. It definitely does. Kaelyn (17:12):And "easy to pronounce." Rekka (17:13):Right? Yeah. You, um, you eliminate part of your audience. Kaelyn (17:17):A good way to do this is go back to, if you wrote an outline, go back to the outline, identify, you know, you know, do you wanna focus on the main character? Do you want to focus on a place? Um, is there a particular magical element or a lost relic or something that you'd like to call attention to, to say, "Hey, this story is about this." Do you want to intrigue the reader by, you know, using the name of something that you've created in your world, that it's going to make them wonder, "Ooh, what is that?" Um, there's, you know, identify some themes in your book. What was this book about? Is it a hero's journey? Is it a coming of age? Is it a romance? And make sure that your title hints towards some elements of that as well. Now, if you're saying, "Oh my God, how do I get all of this into two to five words?" You're right. This is hard. Rekka (18:16):I think if you just sort of open your mind to the question as you're working on your drafts and revisions. At some point you start to get like, "Oh, that would be an interesting title..." And you just jot it down while you're working and keep going and just sort of generate a list of things that could potentially be, um, you know, a title or a series name. And we should get into that too. Kaelyn (18:39):Rekka, what's the craziest thing you've ever done. Trying to come up with a title. Well, you're good at titles you usually have—. Rekka (18:44):Yeah I don't usually do back flips or anything. Kaelyn (18:47):You usually have them when you're, when you're working. I can tell you the craziest thing I did was I took the entire manuscript and dumped it into a word counter and it spit out— Rekka (18:58):Oh like a cloud generator? Kaelyn (18:59):Yeah. It spit out a report for me on the number of times a certain word was used. Rekka (19:05):And your book was titled "The." Kaelyn (19:06):I think it was "He," actually. Rekka (19:12):Yeah. "He The." That's what I was going to say. The pronoun of the main character, if it's third person, and then "the." Kaelyn (19:17):"He The A," I think was the title of the book. Um, but yeah, basically like I did a word cloud and you know, was just trying to come up with, um, you know, things to identify from that. And what's funny is, you know, that's not even how we eventually came to the title, but, um, yeah, I got very, very stuck on a book once I was helping someone with trying to come up with a title in there. And it was like a point of like, "I am going to find a way to do this!" Rekka (19:46):"I am going to find the perfect title and everyone will say, 'yes, Kaelyn, that is the perfect title!' and then I will be happy!" Kaelyn (19:52):"That is the perfect title. I know what this book is and I want to read it now." Rekka (19:55):That's what happens if somebody asks me for help with the title, I'm like, I do not give up until I am the one who has come up with the title. Kaelyn (20:03):It is not easy to encapsulate your entire book in a few short words, but that is what you're trying to do. Rekka (20:10):Which is funny because I find it easier to come up with a book title that is one word than I do for a book title that is a few words. Kaelyn (20:20):Um, I I've been on both sides. Um, sometimes I like the short and sweet: Flotsam. Salvage. You know, um, sometimes I like the longer ones and we'll get a little bit more into those and you know why they're getting trendy right now as we progress here. But there's so many things that you've got to consider when trying to come up with a title and put all of this together. Rekka (20:46):And some of it like, um, the meter of saying it out loud, too. Like if you haven't said your title out loud while you're brainstorming it, like, um, the example I gave earlier, "The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue" feels like balanced phrase, even though the word invisible is much longer than any of the other words in the title. Um, and then one thing I would point out is that like, if you're going to have titling and you have a very, very long word and a very, very short word, you are going to, uh, cause your typographer a little bit of a headache to try and balance that on your, on your cover. Kaelyn (21:23):Personal experience, Rekka? Rekka (21:23):I don't know what you're talking about. Um, but, uh, yeah, like consider how it sounds, how it feels in the mouth. I mean, like that adds to the memorability—the point we were talking about earlier—if it feels like the first line of a poem, especially with the longer ones, it's going to be more memorable. If it feels like a phrase that belongs locked-in the way it's written, that's, I think, that gets you somewhere. Kaelyn (21:52):It needs to roll off your tongue. Rekka (21:54):Or pop around in your mouth. You know? Like it needs to feel good to say. Kaelyn (21:59):We don't like to acknowledge this in the English language, but there are combinations of words that are incredibly awkward and clunky and you can try to finesse them as much as you want, but sometimes it's just not going to happen. Awkward and clunky is not a good look for your book, title, Rekka (22:14):The Serpentine Donut. Kaelyn (22:16):I want a donut. Rekka (22:16):But it's made of snakes. Kaelyn, you will be biting into a snake. Do you still want the serpentine donut? Kaelyn (22:24):Uh, no. Cause I like snakes, so I don't want to bite them. Rekka (22:27):"Serpentine Donut" versus, um, "Hissing Beignet." The Hissing Beignet might be full of cockroaches. It's hard to say. Kaelyn (22:39):Oh, I'll take the donut, then. Definitely. Rekka (22:41):But you know, like different ways to phrase things, you know, like Alligator Pastry, there are different ways to phrase the thing that feel very different when... You know, like when you're going through your list, get your thesaurus out, you know, like play around with it. Find that rhythm, find that phrase that like just feels like it clicks. Or word. Single word. Kaelyn (23:07):Or a single word. Flotsam. Although don't use Flotsam. That's taken. Rekka (23:10):Don't use Flotsam, please. I already have competition. New Speaker (23:14):From a children's book. Children should not read your book. Rekka (23:19):Hey, now! I mean you're right, but still. Kaelyn (23:24):I'm going to take us on a little bit of a divergence here because I was just, I swear. Rekka (23:30):She gives me notes, and then she just goes right off onto a different page that I didn't get a scan of. Kaelyn (23:34):Well, it's so funny because I was thinking about, you know, titles I come across. Like obviously I've got like a massive bookshelf full of, you know, stuff. And I was looking at everything and like coming up with these like tropes. I'm going to, these are not official tropes, but I feel like— Rekka (23:52):But they kind of are. Kaelyn (23:53):They kind of are. Um, so, you know, like if you're writing a YA book, like a very common title for YA books right now is "A Something (or The Something) of Something and Something." So like A Court of Thorns and Roses. A Daughter of Smoke and Bone. You know, there's—. Rekka (24:10):Gods of Jade and Shadow. Kaelyn (24:12):There you go. Rekka (24:13):Which actually was not YA I don't believe, but... Kaelyn (24:15):YA and Fantasy, a little bit, sometimes, I feel like there's a little, little crossover there. Rekka (24:23):Yup. But, um, fantasy, I mean, you nailed it. It's "The Noun of Noun" or — Kaelyn (24:29):You did get these notes. Fantasy, I wrote down, it's "The Noun of the Noun of Noun" or "The Noun of Noun." And usually it's "The [Object] of either [Place] or [Title] or [Title of Place]," you know, [Title of Place]. Rekka (24:47):Yeah. "Storm of Locusts," you know, "Trail of Lightning." Kaelyn (24:50):Yeah, exactly. Um, and then it was funny, cause the other one I came up with was Science Fiction. Although Rekka pointed out that Science Fiction does definitely tend to have some single word titles, but the other one was like a "[Possessive Noun]" and "[A Group or An Object]." Rekka (25:05):When we said, what would we name this story, that was the formula it was using? So, you know, like Sun's Orphan, or whatever I said. Kaelyn (25:12):Yeah. Um, I'm going to go ahead and say it: Vick's Vultures. Rekka (25:15):To Fall Among Vultures was the second book and Where Vultures Dare was the third. That goes to another point that you're going to bring up: Kaelyn (25:23):Naming a series. Rekka (25:23):Naming a series, and naming the books in a series. Kaelyn (25:27):Rekka, you have a series. Rekka (25:28):I do. Kaelyn (25:29):Is there a theme to the titles of your books? Rekka (25:31):The titles of the books, all sort of refer to my main characters, the crew of the ship, being underdogs. Um, and it also refers to elements of the story. So Flotsam: there is a I'll call it geographical location in the story in the, in the world called flotsam. And it's a layer of trash that is caught in a gravity well, and so my characters are being referred to in my title as you know, disposable, um, trash, you know, the stuff that polite society doesn't want. And, um, it's one word it's, um, two syllables. So that when I went to name book two, um, I immediately rejected Colin's suggestion to call it "jetsam" because that wasn't the point. Um, and I ended up calling it Salvage because what they do in this flotsam layer is, you know, take their equipment and go salvage things that might be of value. And so, um, in that book, that crew is still garbage, but are trying to salvage things, you know, um, the world, uh, that kind of fell apart in the first book. They're trying to salvage it. And um, so the third book, I break with the one word, but I keep the two syllables and even keep the letter count because so far all the titles have seven letters in it. Um, so it's, it's uh, Flotsam and Salvage, then the third book will be called Cast Off. And in that I'm referring to, um, things that are cast off, you know, more garbage, but also they are going to start life on a new ship and, you know, cast off. I always go for like a double meaning. I always like to, uh, keep the title simple. I like when the titles feel like they match each other. Um, and I'm very proud that I managed to avoid the word jetsam. Kaelyn (27:51):I'm proud of you too. It's not a bad idea, once you've officially named the first book to then kind of start thinking about that naming convention you came up with for it. Um, I think one of the most cleverly named series, if anybody's read, uh, An Ember in the Ashes series. The name is very interesting. You know exactly what it is. There's still a, there's this big pile of destruction and there's a little spark underneath of it. Um, the next book is called A Torch Against The Night. So what's happening now? Well the fire is a torch now, and it's going out into this darkness and everything, then the next book is A Reaper At The Gates. Rekka, what does that say to you? Rekka (28:39):Things aren't going well. Kaelyn (28:40):Yeah, things aren't going great. And then the final book, which just came out very recently, is called A Sky Beyond The Storm. So again, Rekka, what does that say to you? Rekka (28:52):Kind of a bit of hope coming back. Kaelyn (28:55):A little bit of hope, there. Yeah. Rekka (28:56):Blue sky at the other edge of very dark situation. Kaelyn (29:00):You know, I think that's a example of a great way, you know, to name, name your books, while also keeping in mind to tone. You know, that what we're doing here is we're kind of giving the expectations to the reader. Like I remember when the third book, when they announced the title of it and it was like, there it's A Reaper At The Gates. Rekka (29:19):All the fans kinda go [gasp]. Kaelyn (29:22):This is going to get ugly. Rekka (29:26):Um, I'm of course ruining my podcasting, uh, professionalism by constantly turning around and looking at the books on my shelf for this one. Um, but, uh, I'm thinking of, uh, K A Doore's, uh, it starts with the, The Perfect Assassin and then The Impossible Contract. So you have, you know, "The [adjective] [noun]," and then you have words that tie into that profession of, you know, being a contract killer. The Unconquered City is the third book. So that definitely like builds out this, this concept of scale, um, as you go to the third book. And, and of course the series itself is called The Chronicles of Ghadid. So this is, um, here's your fantasy, "The [noun] of [place]," you know, kind of thing that you're, uh, you were talking about before. Kaelyn (30:23):If you're going to have a series, you are probably going to have to come up with a name for the series of, if you don't people reading the book will do it for you. And you might not like it. I don't know if they actually have this on any of the covers, there's so many versions of this book, but you know, uh, "A Game of Thrones "is book one of "The Song of Ice and Fire." Um, George R.R. Martin had been around the block a few times at that point. So he just named the series before all of this got started. Rekka (30:51):Yeah. I'm, I'm honestly like really surprised at myself for how much I dislike puns that I, uh, I named my book series The Peridot Shift. Like that's just a straight up dad joke. And I am very like amused that apparently I like puns more than I realized. And also like devastated that I did this to myself and it's in print. Kaelyn (31:13):It's fine. We're okay with it. There's really no taking it back at this point. Rekka (31:20):Yeah. That's, that's something it's like, you got to live with the series name. If you go, uh, if you kind of like flippantly just come up with something and it's what you were referring to it as, and then it ends up in print on the cover now you gotta live with it. So keep that in mind too. Kaelyn (31:35):So the second thing I'd like to point out is the progression of naming your books in this series and how much you want to assume that people have read the other books. There's no right or wrong way to do this here. Now the Ember In The Ashes series, the one that I just pointed out, um, I think they did absolutely fantastic because as I said, I was able to sit here, read the names of the series to Rekka, who, I mean, have you ever even heard of that series? Rekka (32:05):No, I've never heard of that series before. Kaelyn (32:05):Yeah. And based on the names, was able to kind of paint a picture of what's going on here. Rekka (32:10):How the arc overall is going to go. Kaelyn (32:14):Um, conversely, you know, you get into some of these series where then more specific names and titles relevant to the story keep happening. Now, in some cases, that can be a good thing. Some people, you know, um, it helps readers identify things that you've written easier, especially if this was a very, very long series. But keep in mind, it could be a turnoff to people who are just looking a book to pick up. Rekka (32:39):Yeah. Well, then... Kaelyn (32:43):We'd like to think that they go back to the beginning. I mean, I know people who will just be like, "Oh God, this sounds like a lot of work. So you're telling me, by the time I get to the fourth book, I'm going to know what this means?" Rekka (32:55):See, I used to just, um, you know, back in, in the pre-internet days, I would go to a bookstore and I would pick up a book whose cover and title interested me and I had very little concern, because I wanted a book immediately. If that was book four in a series of books, seven in a series, I didn't care. I'd just pick up the book and I'd take it home. And I'd be a little bit like lost for the first couple of chapters. And then I'd catch up. Kaelyn (33:24):I never did that. I always had to start from the beginning, Rekka (33:27):But this is, you know, like this is a bookstore, it's a small bookstore and there's no Amazon at this point. So what was on the shelf is what you could get. Like, yes, you could go up to the desk and ask to order it. But like, I was like 13 or 14. I didn't really get that. And I didn't want to wait two weeks for it to come in. You know, like I would be like, this is interesting me now. And if I really like it, then I will ask about, you know, books one through whatever, you know, previous to the one I picked up. So I picked up a lot of series where I started, um, you know, halfway through the series or something like that. And some series, that works better than others. Kaelyn (34:08):Yeah. I was definitely the person that was like, I had to wait, like I would order the book and wait or I'd go to the library and see if they had it. There was a good chance that the library might have it. Rekka (34:20):I, um, I had a big aversion to the smell of the books in the library. I was not very good. And in fact, I do support my local library now, but what I do is I pre-order books that are new. So that I'm the first one who gets them. And then I don't ever have to smell library books. Hey, I'm still supporting everybody. I'm just doing it my way in a way that is comfortable for me. Kaelyn (34:43):Fair. Fair. Um, so let's, you know, speaking of like a series and everything, um, uh, I'm speaking to a place of like fantasy, although you see this in SF a little bit, sometimes, this thing of now, "this is volume one of this, this is book one of the such and such Chronicle." Rekka (35:07):This is Kaelyn's Angry Vocabulary Corner. Kaelyn (35:10):Okay. Yes. All right, fine. We're doing this. This is happening now. No. Um. Like, this is, I get it. It's something that, you know, sounds like fantasy-ish or lost alien civilization, or what have you. It is a nice tool to make it sound like this story is part of a larger story, or a fraction of something that has happened. You're only getting to read a little bit of it. Um, if you are naming these seriously, "volume" technically means "a collection of works and writings collected into one thing and bound together." That is what a volume is. Rekka (35:58):So it's more accurate to call a, um, a trade paperback of comic book issues a volume than it is to call book one of a series, a volume. Kaelyn (36:10):Yes. That said you can call book one of a series of volume, but really it's not a volume of chapters. And that's actually, that's exactly the logic behind that. Um, really it is book one of a series. It is not a volume. So to speak. A volume is, um, "The Collected Works of William Shakespeare Volume I." Because then you have all of the stuff we couldn't fit in that one because the book was getting too thick and heavy and we couldn't bind it all together. So here's a volume two. Or maybe Shakespeare is still alive and writing stuff. So we got, you know, all the stuff that he's written so far— Rekka (36:48):Wow. Amazing if true. Breaking news, Shakespeare is still alive and writing stuff. Kaelyn (36:53):Shakespeare is still alive and writing stuff. Uh, consulted on the Mandalorian episodes, interestingly enough. Um, no, but I understand the, you know, the need to make it sound like this lends the sense of this being a grand encompassing massive story. Yeah. Epic story. Um, use the word "Chronicles." That's better. Rekka (37:19):"Chronicles of Riddick." Got it. But yeah, I mean, I think that is part of it. Like you're not going to see as many people calling their science fiction series a volume. Kaelyn (37:28):Yeah. "Chronicles" are commonly used in science fiction though. Rekka (37:31):It's funny because I also think of that in like a Conan-y... Kaelyn (37:35):Well, you're thinking of the "Chronicles of Narnia." Rekka (37:37):Well, no. Just the, the word itself feels like comes out of that oral tradition. Kaelyn (37:45):Call it the captain's logs or something. Rekka (37:49):So here's... For your science fiction. Yeah. If you have a captain. Kaelyn (37:54):If you have a captain. If you don't, call it the captain's logs anyway, they can be the third-party observer recording, all of this. Rekka (37:59):The ship's tardigrade's logs. Kaelyn (38:03):There you go. Um, so then one other interesting thing to kind of note, and, you know, as always, this is with the disclaimer of: Rekka and I are coming from a place, primarily a fiction primarily of genre fiction, primarily of science fiction and fantasy. Um, titles across different genres will do different things. Um, I've spoken on the show before, about how, you know, back in another life, I lived and existed in the world of academia and, you know, I published a lot of, you know, papers and research stuff. Those titles were so ridiculously long. Um, you, your title was basically a sentence and a half. It was, you know, the actual, what we called, like the creative name of the paper, and then like a sentence of what it was actually about. Part of the reason for this was— and again, you have to keep in mind, this is going back like over a decade. Now at this point, um, where everything was just compiled in LexisNexis; everything was being able to optimize search results so that people could find your paper and use it for research if they want it. Um, the other thing also is that, like, if you think there's a lot of like science fiction books out there, you have no idea what there is out there in terms of academic work. Rekka (39:25):Cause they don't have to compete for the Barnes and Noble shelf space. Kaelyn (39:28):No, because the thing is the only people who are reading, these are the other people who are interested in this topic. So one of the other reasons you did this was to tell whoever was reading this right away, if this was something that they should they should read. Rekka (39:41):Right. And the more descriptive and the more niche you could get, the more like you could attract the, the reader you want. Kaelyn (39:48):Here's the longest title I ever wrote for something I published: The Tragedy of the Penitentiary: The Philadelphia Society for Alleviating the Miseries of Public Prisons in the Formation of Eastern State Penitentiary. Rekka (40:02):A cozy fireside read with a glass of wine on a Saturday when maybe it's snowing outside, feel good. Feel good story. Kaelyn (40:12):Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so academics is going to be different obviously, um, fiction versus non-fiction, um, you know, biographies, obviously in a biography, the most important thing is the name of the person biography is about maybe, usually yeah. Rekka (40:31):Usually in a subtitle, because first you're going to have like your broad title that's, you know, like yeah. Kaelyn (40:36):"The Life of Rekka Jay: Writing As Fast As I Can." Rekka (40:39):Yeah. Like I'm running out of time. Kaelyn (40:44):Um, no, you just write ridiculously fast. Rekka (40:46):Not anymore. Let me tell you, 2020 did a number on, on my production. Kaelyn (40:51):Uh, 2020 did a number on a number of things. So, um, non-fiction books will tend to have more straightforward titles. Those are where you're going to find the colon titles. Rekka (41:05):And, and I will point out that, you know, the title you read us of your work was not worried about being lyrical or memorable or anything like that. Somebody is going to be browsing through a directory and they're going to be searching for keywords. So your main concern is the keywords in your title and the fact that it tells the reader exactly what they're going to encounter. Kaelyn (41:26):Yeah. And non-fiction, um, you know, comes up against kind of the same thing, but tries to be a little lyrical, a little bit more creative there. Um, you know, again, it, it depends what it's about. Um, popular history books will give you, um, you know, usually like, uh, the creative portion of the title, where they come up with something, you know, interesting and intriguing and then the colon and then the, what you're actually going to read about. Right. Um, romance novels have, you know, their own interesting conventions and ways of naming things. Um, everyone's a little bit different. But something that I see, uh, especially I'm seeing in young adults and I'm seeing in contemporary fantasy books is the rise of the colon titles. Um, we see this a lot in movies too. This is a big thing now. Um, everybody's got like the title and then like the explanation title after it. Rekka (42:32):Subtitle. Yeah. Well, it's, um, someone, like a movie reviewer, I remember when Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl came out and they were like, "well, the audacity of Disney to think that they've got a series where they already need, you know, subtitles to distinguish between the movies in their series." It turns out that is exactly what Disney did. Um, I don't know if that's always the case, but it certainly seems to be like, here's the part of the name that we can keep reusing. And here's the part of the title that specifies this individual entry in the series. Kaelyn (43:09):Yeah. Where you, where you kind of have to keep reminding the reader what series this is a part of, and then give the title that is indicative of what you can expect from this particular installment. Rekka (43:22):Right. So, um, for instance, the Marvel movies, you have Captain America: Winter Soldier, you know, like it's actually, the movie is The Winter Soldier, let's be real, but if they didn't put captain America in there, there's a very large portion of the audience that doesn't realize that it's the sequel to the first Captain America movie. Um, what was it, The First Avenger? Yes. So like again, subtitles all up and down this place. Kaelyn (43:46):Yep. So yeah, subtitles can, uh, you know, certainly be helpful if you feel like, you know, especially if you're in a series. Rekka (43:52):Or if you're non-committal about like which title you want to use. Kaelyn (43:56):Or that. Or if you're just looking for a way to get more words on the cover. Rekka (44:00):I mean, if you, if you are undecided between two titles, consider one of them for your series name, if you are writing a series. That's an easy way to get, to use both titles in the first book and feel good about it. But something I will point out, um, you know, talking about the tropes of the genre titles is that, um, especially with covers also having their own tropes and styles within a genre, you do run the risk of, um, if you follow these formulas, of your book looking so much like the book next to it, that someone forgets which book is which, and which book was recommended and which book is just really similar to that. Um, especially if you follow, you know, a lot of, um, like book Twitter or, uh, reading groups or, or something like that, you're going to see names over and over and over again, and start to have the lines between which books are which get getting blurred. So while it's good to follow the genre expectations and have someone go, "Oh, yes, I love books that have titles that are structured like that." You also need to have that, um, that intrigue created by your title that is going to clue the person into the tone of the book. And, um, also a little bit of like, the elements of the story. Kaelyn (45:16):It's funny you say that because when I was giving examples before, one of them that I gave, I said, Daughter of Smoke and Bone, and that is the correct name of that book, but I immediately went, "wait, I think I might be messing that up with something else." And I remembered what the other one was. There's another book, which is on my list, I haven't gotten to yet, and is a much more recent release, called Children of Blood and Bone. Rekka (45:41):Yep. I have that on my shelf. And that's what I was like, did she miss-say that title, or was she just pulling that one out of the air? Kaelyn (45:47):But that's a good example of, you know, like I even went and like, I've got that book Daughter of Smoke and Bone sitting on my bookshelf and like I even went, "wait a second. Why does that sound like something else? Did I, did I mess up two titles there?" Rekka (46:00):There's also Bone Shard Daughter. So, you know... People who like women dealing with necromancy, I assume, are going to flock to these titles, but may not know which book it is. They actually picked up until they start reading it. Kaelyn (46:18):So well, you know, just, uh, do some re— as always do your research, but you know, sometimes you have things that, um, we can, we can kind of round out the episode here with, you know, sometimes there are things beyond your control when it comes to titles. Um, an excellent example of this is, um, one of mine and Rekka's favorite series. The first book is called Gideon The Ninth. The second book is called Harrow The Ninth. Uh, the third is going to be [something, something] The Ninth. And, um, we had kind of started referring to this as The Ninth House series, but it wasn't officially given that. But then a book series came out where the first book is called The Ninth House. And so that became The Ninth House series and then, uh, Tor.com, publishes the Gideon series. Rekka (47:09):As The Locked Tomb. Kaelyn (47:09):And they actually had to, yeah, they had to actually come up with a name and say, okay, it's this now. So if you don't name your series, somebody else might do it for you. Rekka (47:19):And that's a point that there is no... Like, when somebody uses a title, there's nothing preventing you from using the same exact title, but you don't really want to get tangled with their listings and their book sales and their marketing efforts and all that kind of thing. Assuming you're not trying to ride the coattails of their marketing and so forth, and if you are a good actor, you are hopefully not doing that. But yeah, I mean, you kind of have to be aware of what's out there in the market so that you don't end up with the same exact thing. And a simple, you know, search on a search engine will do wonders for finding out if that's already been taken. Um, but again, Gideon the Ninth and Harrow the Ninth I think were already written before the books came out and The Ninth House was the plan, but before they came out, then you had the ninth house released, I think that's— is that Leigh Bardugo? Yes. Leigh Bardugo. Good job, me! Okay. Um, they had little choice, but to come up with a, uh, a new title for the series and, you know, I think The Locked Tomb... I like that better. Yeah. I mean, Ninth House works as a, as a book title. Um, but locked tomb is definitely like the central, you know, theme of the entire series. Kaelyn (48:40):Well, so let's, let's end here by talking about how that is a really effective series title or even treated as an effective book title. Okay. So what are we the locked tomb, three words that are actually doing a lot here. So one it's memorable too. It's easy to say. All of those are words we understand in simple English three, it's creating intrigue, because why would you need to lock a tomb? Rekka (49:09):And is it locked from the inside or the outside? It's also very searchable if you type in the lock tomb, I get the locked tomb series by Tamsyn Muir as the first results ,and also the first page of results. Kaelyn (49:24):So unique, memorable, easily searchable intriguing. And then it's also kind of establishing, I won't say it as establishing a genre, but it is certainly establishing the tone of the book you're going to read. Or the series for that matter, because it's obviously something to do with death. There's obviously some kind of mystery here. There is also potential for something to escape. So there's elements of danger and intensity. So that is an outstanding title and it ticks all of those boxes. Rekka (49:59):Right. Yeah. That was a good choice. Ninth house, not many, not as many boxes, like, you know, okay. So there's a number and there's a structure. Is it stable? Is that the right number of things? Is, you know, what happened to houses one through eight? I guess, or the question, um, is there a, is there a 10th house? You know, but, uh, the lock tomb series definitely touches on the elements of necromancy that you have in the series, you know, um, the, the forbidden, uh, nature of the goals of some of the characters and, um, and, you know, paired together, like, you have "the locked tomb" feels like, you know, the structure around everything, um, around which everything's revolving. Yup. And then you have Gideon the Ninth, Harrow the Ninth and, you know, [blank] the Ninth. And, um, we won't say anything in case there, if you search, you can, see what it is. But if you haven't read them yet, then, then these are the books. Kaelyn (51:02):And one last point here god, we should have just made this whole series an example because the title of the third book is a spoiler for the first two. So that's another thing to keep in mind. Rekka (51:14):Of course, if you start reading it, you don't know that, you know, so if you went to a bookstore and saw all three on the shelf, you don't necessarily know that the third book title is a spoiler until you're about like two thirds of the way through the first book. I think then you might figure it out. But, um, yeah. Uh, the, the naming convention of the individual books in the series is, um, is very structured. You know, like leaves no room for doubt. "Did I choose the right title?" Kaelyn (51:45):No. You know exactly what well, what you really know is who, what perspective the book is written from and Rekka (51:53):Well THAT's a spoiler. So good job Kaelyn trying to protect everybody from spoilers. Um, I will say that, uh, Tamsyn Muir released a, I think it's a short story. That's considered like book 0.5 and that completely broke the naming of a structure. And it's called The Mysterious Study of Doctor Sex. And that's one that, um, tor.com I think, like gave out for free to promote Harrow. So you, you still have room to play around if you release little like mini short stories or novellas or something around your main entries, um, if you choose to do something like that. Kaelyn (52:33):So, um, I think that covers it for titles. See what I did there? Rekka (52:37):Uh-uh. Kaelyn (52:38):Cover. Titles. Rekka (52:40):Nope. Cover art's a different episode, Kaelyn. Kaelyn (52:42):Yeah, I know, but it's, you know, titles go on the cover. Rekka (52:45):Do they? Kaelyn (52:46):It works. Yeah. Rekka (52:47):Okay. Kaelyn (52:47):Yeah, it works. Rekka (52:48):We'll have to look that up and verify that. Kaelyn (52:51):Pending verification. Do titles go on the cover of the book? Um, yeah, so that, you know, titles are— it was funny because when we're thinking about this we were like, "well, I'm not sure we could do a whole episode on this. Maybe it'll just be shorter and it turns out there's actually..." Rekka (53:08):Turns out there's an hour and five minutes worth of things to talk about. Kaelyn (53:15):Um, so, you know, as always, we hope you enjoy, uh, you know, if you do tell us. We like when people talk to us. Rekka (53:22):We are on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast, or you can find us on patreon.com/WMBcast. And, um, it's always extremely wonderfully helpful. If you could leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts and just let people know what you like about the show. And, uh, if you have already left a review, then share an episode that you particularly enjoyed with somebody who's talking about the same subject and needs some advice. So, um, I've been hearing that some of our listeners have been sharing our episodes and we really appreciate that. So thank you. Um, uh, we, you know, we read our reviews, but we haven't gotten one in a while. So, um, if you feel like gifting us with a review, we definitely would appreciate that. And I'm pretty sure we've got more review, more listeners than we have reviews. So, um, if you're out there, please consider it. Kaelyn (54:12):We're going to come get you. Rekka (54:12):We are NOT going to come get you. We are just going to pout and believe me, I can pout with the best of them. All right. So, uh, there's your homework. Um, and if you have any more questions about titles, if there's something we didn't cover, let us know. Otherwise we will consider this a job very well done. And we will talk to you again in two weeks. Kaelyn (54:33):Take care, everyone.

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast "Submissions September" Episodes Referenced: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode Episode Transcription (all errors are entirely Rekka's fault) Rekka (00:00):Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:09):And I'm Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:12):And today we apparently just have baking on our mind. Kaelyn (00:17):Yeah, I don't. It was. I. I'm just really surprised that you watch the Great British Baking Show. I don't know why I'm surprised by that. I shouldn't be. Rekka (00:26):Well, it starts when we're looking for holiday content, that's feel good and we don't want to worry about like, you know, getting drawn into one of those crappy made-for-streaming movies that everyone's talking about. And it turns out to be like worse than a Lifetime romcom kind of thing. That happened a couple of times this year. So we basically have said, okay— Kaelyn (00:49):Lookin' at you, Christmas Prince. Rekka (00:51):We can, we can trust Great British Baking Show. And so we started with the holiday episodes and then this year we were not satiated by the holiday episodes when we ran out of them. So then we just started watching season eight and now we're working our way back. Kaelyn (01:06):Yeah. But, um, in this episode, you know, we're just—for full disclosure, get ready for a lot of baking metaphor as being shoe-horned— Rekka (01:14):As many as I was eager to fill in, but I was, you know, like, you know, it was trying to be refined in my application of them. Kaelyn (01:23):Yeah. Well, so along the lines of refinement, um, you know, today we're talking about, uh, leveling up. What you can do as an author, as a writer, to help improve yourself. Rekka (01:35):Yeah. Cause you know, you can always be making forward progress even while you're waiting for the success to come to you, you know? Cause it's not going to come *to* you, for one, and for two, there's a lot of waiting involved for going out and getting it. Kaelyn (01:51):Yeah. So I think a lot of people, especially those who have been trying, you know, sending out a lot of queries, trying to get published for a long time, fall into the trap of passiveness. Of, you know, just waiting for something to happen rather than continuing to work and improve themselves and try to make something happen instead. Um, it is publishing is a weird, I can't even call it balance cause it's pretty lopsided of just like, you know, having to rely on other people to say yes and no to things. But that doesn't mean that you have no agency in this process. There's other things that you can be doing to try to tilt the scales towards a yes more than no. Rekka (02:36):And even if the scales aren't tilted, you are becoming a better writer, which is in theory why you're here. Kaelyn (02:43):Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, today's episode, we go through some, um, you know, bullet points of different things that you can be doing while you're waiting to hear back or taking a break to sort of try and improve yourself and reevaluate. Um, this is everything from, you know, as we always like to talk about, working on your writing to, you know, coming up with like a plan and having goals in mind, we'll talk a lot about goals and what is realistic and you know, what you should be doing to meet those. Rekka (03:15):Yeah. And if you, you know, if you put your entire career on pause while you wait for someone else to make a decision about you, you're going to spend more of your writing career on pause than you are actually writing. And so it's a good habit to get into, to send those, you know, queries or submissions out into the ether and then get back to it. And, uh, really that's what it's about. And even if you are nervous and creativity is hard, we have suggestions of other things that you can do that don't necessarily mean like sitting down with the keyboard and just writing and pretending like you've never sent a query out. Kaelyn (03:54):Yeah. So, um, you know, as always, we hope this, uh, episode is informational and educational and uh, that you enjoy and we'll see you on the other side of the music. New Speaker (04:19):Very nice segue Rekka. Rekka (04:20):Thank you. Uh, speaking of which, I don't know if it's a nice segue, if you call attention to the fact that as a segue, like I think that negates any credit you get for coming up with a decent segue. Kaelyn (04:32):Or am I just acknowledging your craft here? Rekka (04:36):Speaking of which, uh, today, uh, we had no topic and Kaelyn said, what do you want to talk about? And my suggestion was to talk about what you can do when everything else is up in the air and out of your control to keep moving forward and keep improving yourself so that you are getting stronger as a writer and making yourself hopefully a little more appealing every, you know, every time somebody talks to you about business stuff, whether they're an agent or a publisher. Kaelyn (05:14):Rekka's exact words were "leveling up." Rekka (05:16):Yes. I used leveling up. Kaelyn (05:18):Yeah, no, I liked it. New Speaker (05:19):Well then you asked me what I meant. So I felt like maybe that wasn't a good description. Yes. Following the description, it's a good shortcut. Kaelyn (05:29):Yes. I liked it. Leveling up. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, we're talking today about, um, as Rekka said, things you can do that are within your control to help move your career and forward and achieve your goals in writing. Because so much of this is not in your control. There is so much of just having to wait on other people to hand down judgements. Rekka (05:51):Yes. And, and you cannot even wait patiently for their judgment and know that you get a good judgment. Kaelyn (05:58):Yes. Yeah. On top of that, it's um, it's very, it's very much a spinning wheel of anxiety with a lot of this. Um, so yeah, but you know, that said you are not completely at the mercy of a cruel universe here. There are things that you can be doing to, uh—Rekka possibly disagrees. Rekka (06:19):I might've pursed my lips and bopped my head side to side and say welllllll, you know, that's, that's debatable, but we don't have time for that debate. Kaelyn (06:28):No, no, certainly not. Um, but in terms of writing, there are, you know, there are things that, yeah, you have to wait on external forces and powers and in some cases, deities to, uh, you know, let you know what's gonna happen here, but there's things that you can be doing in the meantime, you are not completely adrift on this sea. Rekka (06:46):In fact, sometimes it's helpful to be doing things in the meantime. So you're not fixated on how you are adrift at sea. Kaelyn (06:53):Writing, like every other craft, every other profession, there is always room for improvement and growth. You are never to a point where you achieve some sort of enlightenment status as a writer where okay, you now know, see and write all things. Anything that you jot down is perfect and needs no work whatsoever. There's not a —. Rekka (07:16):Unless you're Stephen King. Kaelyn (07:16):Unless you're Stephen King. Rekka (07:18):Which is a result of capitalism, not necessarily skill. Kaelyn (07:21):And possibly cocaine, but moving on. Rekka (07:24):I thought that was his directorial career. Kaelyn (07:29):But you're never to a point where you can't improve. Rekka (07:35):In fact, if you got to that point, somehow you would probably be quite bored and move on to something new. Kaelyn (07:42):Yeah. You pick up a new hobby, like, like crocheting. New Speaker (07:46):Otherwise you'll just be sitting on that throne like Conan and going, dammit. Now what? Kaelyn (07:49):Yeah. "And Alexander wept for, there were no more worlds to conquer." Rekka (07:54):Yeah, yeah, exactly. "No more words to conquer." That's what I heard. Um, yeah. So my thought and I'm, sub-tweeting literally all of my friends right now, um, is how many times I have seen people get to a certain stage where they rely on the judgment, as you say, or the response from others to move ahead to the next thing they want and how that causes them to experience a deterioration in creativity and motivation, focus, self-confidence. I mean, like there's a lot of stuff that falls apart when all you do is recycle your inbox to see if something's come in. Kaelyn (08:42):Yeah. This is, you know, there's a certain point where you're just beating your head against a wall, doing the same thing over and over again and not figuring out why this isn't working. Um, if you're just going to keep submitting the same thing over and over again, keep getting rejections and just go, "well, they just don't like it. It's fine. The way it is. I'm going to find somebody who likes us." You're not going to get very far in your career and you're probably going to end up pretty bitter. And—. Rekka (09:09):Yeah. And that's, that's the part that I'm most concerned about is, you know, cause you're, even if you make it in this career, you don't necessarily become that, you know, Hollywood picture perfect writer, successful writer. Um, but your enjoyment of being a writer can really, you know, it can take a hit when you let that kind of resentment and bitterness seep into you. Kaelyn (09:38):Yeah. So— New Speaker (09:39):Don't become a rum cake of bitterness. Kaelyn (09:45):Uh. Yes. Rekka (09:46):Right. Cause the rum cake, you soak it with rum after you finished making it. And yeah, that's what I meant. I said what I meant! Kaelyn (09:55):You heard me! Rekka (09:58):We've been watching great British baking show lately, so like all— Kaelyn (10:00):Oh hey, me too! Rekka (10:00):Okay. We are not allowed to talk about that because, cause we'll just go on for hours. I'm sure. Yes. Kaelyn (10:10):I have the best bread recipe now. Rekka (10:12):You're gonna, you're gonna put your name into the hat and get on the show? Kaelyn (10:15):Oh God. No, I'm terrified of everyone that's on that show. Rekka (10:19):I would just hang out with Noel and, and Paul, honestly. Kaelyn (10:24):Yeah. Yeah. They seem fun. Um, Paul, Paul's a little scary though. Rekka (10:28):No, see, I, I swear to God, Paul is only sc—see, I said, we weren't allowed to talk about this and we're talking about it. I said, um, the other day that Paul is only scary because of the way they edit the episodes. Like if you, if you have your ear to what's going on, like, yes, he walks around and stares at people, but I'm sure that's the same face I would make, if I were watching people I was concerned about, you know? Um, but he says really encouraging, wonderful things to people whenever he's given the opportunity. Kaelyn (10:59):But then, when they have to bring it up there, he's always the one like picking the bread up and like knocking on it. And he's like "I will rip this in half." It's a little, um, it's always, Hmm. "I, uh, think it's a little bit underdone didn't that mate." Rekka (11:14):Wow. Was that, was that your Paul Hollywood? Kaelyn (11:17):That wasn't a good Paul Hollywood. Rekka (11:19):Paul Hollywood isn't Australian. Kaelyn (11:22):Yeah, but it does call people mate. Rekka (11:24):I have not really heard him say that yet. I haven't watched enough. Obviously we need to finish this episode so I can go watch some more. Yeah. Kaelyn (11:30):Okay. But so you can be Paul Hollywood. Rekka (11:33):So wait for judgment from Paul Hollywood and be— Kaelyn (11:38):You can be your own Paul Hollywood Rekka (11:40):Be David from season eight, where you take all that critique and you actually turn it into more skill. Kaelyn (11:47):Yes. So. Rekka (11:48):Everyone go watch season eight. And so, you know what reference I just made. Kaelyn (11:51):We'll stop. I promise we're stopping right now. Rekka (11:54):I don't know if I'll I'll cut this or not. It was kind of fun. Depends how long this episode is. Since you told me it was all me, it's going to be short. So we need that filler, like rice crispy in the middle of a cake for structure. Sorry. Kaelyn (12:10):Oh my God. It's amazing because I don't think there's been a single thing made on that show that you would eat. Rekka (12:16):Oh, I can't eat a word of it. A word of it? Kaelyn (12:18):Yeah. Rekka (12:18):I can't eat a crumb of it. Kaelyn (12:20):Yeah. Rekka (12:20):Words are for writers. Crumbs are for bakers, but it is delightful to watch. Kaelyn (12:26):That said, speaking of words... We're going to get back on track here, I promise. Rekka (12:33):Nah. Kaelyn (12:33):Um, no. So there are, you know, there's a lot of different things you can be doing that are under your control to try to make yourself more appealing and to take, uh, to give yourself agency in this process, where frankly, um, it seems like you don't really have a lot of that through all of it. Rekka (12:54):It depends. And I, and I think this is exactly the point, what you see as your goals. Kaelyn (13:02):Yeah. Exactly. Rekka (13:03):Because a goal is a thing, in theory, that you have some amount of control in reaching. But if you say your goal is to get an agent and get a big publishing deal and become a best seller, where is the control in any of that? Let me tell you: there's none. Kaelyn (13:25):There's only so many writing courses you can take to get yourself to a point where you've written the world's greatest book. Rekka (13:33):But there are so many writing courses that will promise to make you a New York Times bestseller. Kaelyn (13:38):Yeah. Um, let's, you know, let's take a step back here and kind of identify, you know, some things that are attainable and things that just happen. New York Times bestsellers. I won't insult anybody by saying they just happen, but there's a lot more machination that goes on in behind the scenes— Rekka (13:57):Machination is the right word. Kaelyn (13:57):Yeah, than you realize, um, New York Times bestsellers aren't because everybody loves these books and, you know, buys a ton of them. There's a reason that the same books sit on this list for weeks, months, in the case of Harry Potter, years. Um, and it has to do a lot with, um, publishing houses, marketing dollars, um, to be clear, they're not bribing the New York Times, but the New York Times is not picking their bestseller list strictly based on how many of these books are sold. Rekka (14:34):And not even based on the merits of the book itself. Kaelyn (14:38):Yes. Having the aspiration of being a New York Times bestseller means what your actual aspiration is, is to be a globally known household name. Because that's kind of what you are looking at to get on these, some of these lists. Not always. And you know, of course, you know, bestseller lists have all kinds of subcategories and different genres, et cetera, but that is not a realistic goal because there is very little direct influence that you can exert over that process. Rekka (15:13):A goal itself, as we said, you know, you have to have some control over, and there are, you know, definitions in business planning and all that of what makes a goal. And the obnoxious, you know, uh, acronym is S.M.A.R.T., which means that the goal is specific that the goal is measurable, that it's achievable realistic and time-based, and you can see how the things that I mentioned earlier, getting an agent, getting a big publishing deal, becoming a New York Times bestseller doesn't really match this S.M.A.R.T. goal description definition. You cannot say, "Oh yes. By September I will be a New York Times bestseller." Kaelyn (16:06):Not this September, I hope. Rekka (16:08):Or you cannot even say, "Oh yes. In 10 years I will have an agent." You know, like you cannot control these things. Kaelyn (16:15):Yeah. These are, these are forces beyond your, your ability to control. Rekka (16:21):Are they achievable? Yes. Are they realistic? Yes. Bue because they happen in reality, but not because you can just sit down in a checkbox, you know, to-do list and say, "I will achieve these things." Kaelyn (16:34):Well, that's the logical fallacy that plays into the lottery. "I could win because somebody is going to have to win this." "Somebody will win this, why shouldn't it be me?" Rekka (16:43):Or "I should play because if I don't play, then I cannot win." It's not the same as "If I do play, I will absolutely win." Kaelyn (16:51):Two different, two different logical issues there. Yeah. But there's, you know, there have been so many books even that got exactly what they needed to be successful, and flopped. Rekka (17:03):Yep. Kaelyn (17:04):I think in some ways it helps to think of books like movies. You know, there's a lot of stuff that goes into them that has to do with marketing, has to do with names attached to it, has to do with, you know, can you get the right audience? Did you, you know, make the book appealing to the right group of people? The same way, books flop the same way movies, flopped, and you know, there's time and money investments that go into them. And, you know, it's, it's all a numbers game. Um, you know, that said, it's the same thing with the awards, to an extent, you know, like you don't just win an Academy award because your movie was fantastic. There are tons of really fantastic movies that have not won awards. It's all marketing. it's very political and very who-you-know, et cetera. Rekka (17:47):And we did do an entire episode on fiction awards. So go back and listen to that from last year, I'll link it in the show notes, if you want to hear about how that works. Um, and that's another bingo card item. And, and maybe that's how I distinguish them as like, "these are things that I put on my bingo card that I hope someday that I will punch off, you know, and say like, yes, I got an agent. Yes. I was guest of honor at some writing conference. Yes. I was, uh, received my 100 rejection." You know, like those are on there, too. Uh, won an award, uh, got a big, you know, publishing contract with X number of zeros, you know, put those on that list, but don't make them your standard for whether or not you've achieved what you want. And if that's all you want to achieve, please reevaluate step back and ask what, what it is that you really want out of a writing career? Pretend that none of that can ever happen and just work on you. What can you work on? Kaelyn (18:51):Yeah. So to that end, and you know, we're going to get in a minute here into some of the things you can be doing in the meantime. And this we'll, we'll certainly circle back to this, but decide what you want out of your writing career that is not to be the next Stephen King, because that's not necessarily a realistically attainable goal for everyone. Rekka (19:10):Or what that means to you, that you want to be the next Stephen King. Do you want to write a lot of like hometown horror stories? You can do that, but, and you can appeal to Stephen King's audience. "If you like Stephen King, if you loved The Stand, you will love this," you know, but, um, can you control whether you have that same level of success? Absolutely not. Kaelyn (19:33):You know, deciding like, well, I just want to get a book published. I don't necessarily need it to be one of the stories I've already written. Um, I don't necessarily need it to be in this specific genre in this genre only. "I just would like to have a book published" versus maybe a different goal is "I want to get this book that I've written published." And we'll talk about that a little bit more down the line here, but, um, so, you know, let's kind of get into this here. Some things you can do to improve your chances of attaining your goals. Um, first and foremost, as we always talk about, one of our favorite things to harp on: work on your writing. Rekka (20:13):Yeah. Don't stop writing when you send off a query to an agent. You know, like don't make that the only thing you've got in your hopper. Kaelyn (20:20):Yeah. As we said, there is no such thing as the writer who has attained enlightenment. That's not, Rekka (20:28):Especially if it's your first novel. Chances are, you're not very close. Kaelyn (20:33):Um, there's always room to be working on and improving your craft, um, in any craft really, but especially in writing. Um, it's, you know, and you may be thinking, okay, well, "I got published or, you know, I had some short that were picked up. I'm good." No, that doesn't matter. Go join a writing group anyway. Go take some, you know, maybe you don't want to take some courses. I mean, I, I love taking courses and things. I don't know why you wouldn't want to do that. But you know, join a writing group, attend a workshop, take some courses, join a group that Um, you know, reviews each other's work and gives feedback. Read things and give feedback on them. That's a great way to improve your own writing is to help other people work on theirs. So I know this is something we say all the time, "work on your writing, here's ways to do it," but this is a great way to be moving yourself along. Because on top of just staying on top of your writing, what you're doing is you're probably creating new stuff while you do this, that you may not have otherwise taken the time to do. Rekka (21:40):And every word you write is more skill that you are building. Kaelyn (21:44):Exactly. Rekka (21:45):Giving you the chance to say, you know, is, "am I using economy of phrase? Am I, um, you know, getting emotion across the way I want, am I, is my world building, you know, solid? Am I leaving the reader wanting more? Or am I leaving them in a coma because I've, you know, overdone it on the exposition?" Every time you write and you revise, you have the chance to analyze this and you have the chance to look at yourself honestly, and your writing honestly, and figure out, you know, how do you, how do you want to improve it? Like if you say "this revision pass, I'm going to work on characters," you know, or "this next book, I really want to delve into characters where before it's been all like, you know, the hero doesn't really change. It's just an adventure. And this next book, I really want to give the character arc the spotlight." You know, look for ways to challenge yourself. Because if you're just doing, what's comfortable, it is a little bit less effective. It's still good to keep writing. If you mostly do the same thing, but you are going to grow more, the more you flex your muscles and try new things. Kaelyn (22:56):Think back through the careers of all of the, you know, best-selling authors, you can name off the top of your head. They have not recently been writing what they started out writing. Rekka (23:10):Yeah. And that's the weird thing is— Kaelyn (23:12):Maybe they stay in the same genre, but the stories and the books themselves are not the same. Rekka (23:21):If you think about our obsession with classics, it's really interesting how people want to go back to like an old Spielberg movie and point out how this was so much better than any of his recent work. Um, or they want to go to an author who's written twenty books and they go back to the first book and they, you know, this series was their favorite. But if people look and even musicians, you know. Kaelyn (23:48):I was gonna say. Rekka (23:49):"This album is classic," you know? Kaelyn (23:51):Yeah. Rekka (23:52):But when you take in the discography or the bibliography or the filmography as a whole, people get really annoyed when artists evolve and change and don't do things the same way. Kaelyn (24:07):I think one of the best, uh, things I heard of that ever was I was listening to an interview with Billy Joel of all people. And Billy Joel, by the way, is a ridiculously talented pianist, like apart from, you know, we just think of him as like these poppy classic songs that are, you know, old people dance to at weddings and stuff. Billy Joel is actually very into classic piano music. And it's a very highly skilled with it. And then he composes as well. Things that aren't like, you know, what we think of Billy Joel music. And I was listening to him in this interview and he, um, he said, you know, like "I was to the point that like I was getting bored with, you know, just playing like Big Shot and Scenes From An Italian Restaurant over and over again. Um, and so every now and then I'd stop and I'd play like, you know, something new that I had written or something that was just, you know, not on an album, but, and everyone would, you know, I could feel the audience die down a bit." And, but he did say at the same time, these people have paid a lot of money to come here and see me play the songs that they love. And what he said was "I need to strike a balance between that because I'm going to be miserable if every time I just, you know, have to get up there and perform the same songs over and over again with no creativity." And so that's what happens with writing too, if you're just regurgitating the same stories over and over again with no evolution and no creativity? Rekka (25:36):You're not going to want to stick around long. Kaelyn (25:38):Yeah. I mean, I would think you'd get bored of that eventually. Um, especially, you know, if you're not in a position where you can challenge yourself, I think that's something that drives writers forward a lot is trying to challenge themselves and solve problems within their books. Rekka (25:54):And I think, you know, the genre does evolve and you are going to be left behind. You know, so if that's something that's concerning to you is about being included in the genre when people talk about it, you know, don't stand still. Kaelyn (26:08):Yeah. And that is, um, our next point here is reading. Apart from doing a lot of writing, one of the best things you can do is reading. And you know, some of this is just because you're absorbing other people's writing, you're seeing things they did, identifying techniques, tricks, et cetera. But also you're keeping up on the genre that you're interested in. Rekka (26:27):And the more books you could read. And there are a lot of them, you know, don't get me wrong. My To-Be-Read pile is, you know, taller than I am. But when you have read a lot of things, when that agent calls you back and wants to talk about your book, you will know if you've read something similar to your book that you can help position it with and help narrow down that audience again. Kaelyn (26:50):There is nothing to me, quite as disheartening as talking to an author, you know, like people I would just run into at conferences or seminars and stuff, and they'd be telling me about their book. And I'm about to say, "Oh, sure, send it along. I'll take a look." And they say, "Oh, so it's like such and such." "I'm sorry, what?" "Oh, okay. Oh, you haven't read that. Oh, okay. So kind of like this." And I don't expect everyone to have read every book, but if I named four or five and none of them are ringing a bell even a little bit, that's, um, I'm kind of looking at this and going like, does this person like science fiction and fantasy? You know, it's and again, I don't expect everyone to have read everything or for their tastes to line up exactly like mine, but there's a lot of stuff I haven't read that I at least have heard of. And I'm familiar with where its place is in, you know, the, yeah. Rekka (27:48):I mean, at least look at the long list for awards each year and make sure you're familiar with what's going on there. Even if you don't read every piece on there, um, you know, what, what is the appeal? Why did it make it to the long list? And yeah, that's a big day of homework. I did not assign you some light reading there. Like, you know, the long list itself is long. And then you also have to look into each book and see what's going on. Take a look at the cover. How was it being placed on the shelf? Is it, YA? Is it adult? You know, and be aware of the different aspects of how that book is being marketed. Because someday someone will ask you, hopefully, how you want your book marketed and you need to kind of have this background. Kaelyn (28:32):Now some of you may be going, "why do I need to be bothered with all of this? Why can't I just write the book I want to write? And if somebody is interested in it, they can get it published." Now here's the thing. Yes, you're right. On some level, it's like, "I don't, this isn't my full-time, you know, career goals and aspirations. I just wrote a book. It happens to be, you know, a science fiction and fantasy book. I enjoy that. I'm not super mega involved in all of this. I have some books I like, why can't I just write this book, put it down, and walk away?" And the answer to that is in some cases you can, yeah. That is a thing that can happen. The reason that's difficult to do is because you're going to be working with an agent and editor and a publishing house that eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff. Rekka (29:15):Right. And they rely on this for their, for their careers. And if you aren't as passionate as they are, they're not going to be passionate for you. Kaelyn (29:22):I know it's a weird, difficult spot to be in. I know it's kind of like a answer. You got to sort of get yourself in the club. Like you need to demonstrate—. Rekka (29:34):Or at least know who's in the club. Kaelyn (29:36):Yeah. Or at least know who's who's in the club. Um, I, I'm going to use this example, even though I really don't like it because I have a lot of problems with the fashion industry, but there's a scene in The Devil Wears Prada where, uh, Andy walks in and, you know, Meryl Streep's Anna Wintour avatar character is, you know, berating somebody and she says, do this. And, um, Anna or whatever her name is laughs. And they all look at her and she's like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm still just learning about this stuff. And everyone in the room is very insulted because she is a complete newcomer and outsider to this. And Stanley Tucci gives her this sort of dressing down later where he says, "you happened into this job. There are people who spend their entire lives wanting to work in this industry. They dream of working here and you only deigned to work here. So you want to know why no one likes you, it's because you don't take us seriously. And therefore we can't take you seriously." It's very similar with publishing. Rekka (30:47):I don't feel like that situation—I mean, yes, there are people who are like," okay, agents come to me, bring me your offers." But, um, I feel like there are a lot of people who look for an agent so that they end up with a mentor and someone who's going to educate them on all this. And it would be great, I'm sure, for the agent to hear that you've done some of the homework already. Kaelyn (31:20):Yeah. So that kind of leads us into one of the other things that we can, you know, discuss here is work on ways to make yourself more appealing. For a lot of writers, the ultimate first step is landing an agent. There's a lot of stuff that goes into this. Listen to the Query Letter episode, listen to the Agents episode, listen to all the Submissions September, probably because that's, you know— Rekka (31:46):Yes. And also there are a lot of agents out there with YouTube channels or podcasts of their own, and newsletters, mailing lists, you know, like there is a lot of information out there to be had to help you understand what's going on from the agent side so that you can make their lives a little bit easier by not expecting miracles of them, but also not expecting them to do the work of educating you. Kaelyn (32:09):Yeah. So everything that I just mentioned, you know, that we talked about with the Agents episode, with Submission September, with the Query Letters, all of those have a significant element of things beyond your control. What you can do to make yourself more appealing to an agent or a publishing house is as we said, familiarize yourself with the genre, but also have a plan. Rekka (32:31):Know what kind of books you're going to be writing in a couple of years? Not necessarily like, "I have this one book, please make it sell." You want like, okay, "I have this book." And then they say, "What else you working on?" And you have more than one answer for them. Kaelyn (32:45):I think beyond, you know, all of the agent pet peeves that were talked about in terms of submission and querying, one of the things in agent least wants to hear is "I don't know what to do with myself and my book." I think there is very little that is more disheartening than he completely directionless author. Um, it's one thing to show up and be like, "well, I don't, I don't know how this industry works. That's why you're here." It's another to be, "I have no idea of what my goals and plans are beyond just this book." Um, Rekka made the example before of think how hard it is to cook for somebody who doesn't know what they want to eat. Yeah. Now imagine it's a book. Rekka (33:31):Yeah. Now imagine that your career depends on this person being successful at and enjoying their dinner. Kaelyn (33:37):Yes, exactly. So, um, you know, all of this ties together with writing, into reading, into getting yourself into the genre and that kind of atmosphere in a world that you want to publish and live in. Rekka (33:54):As part of that, I would also suggest, and, you know, we all hate social media, but get on social media and just be aware of the discourse going around in your genre. Hear the discussions that are taking place. Hear the concerns that people are having. Um, either over the industry or subject matter or diversity or, you know, all the different aspects that go into a community and an industry and a livelihood. There's a lot to just absorb. Like you don't even have to participate. You don't have to feel like you have solutions. Kaelyn (34:28):Yeah. That was exactly what I was going to say is you don't even need to participate. You can just be like an observer or a lurker. Rekka (34:34):That's the nice thing about Twitter is like everybody's airing their dirty laundry on Main. And you can just, you know, get an idea of what's out there without having to step into anything messy to begin with before you've got an agent before you've made a name for yourself. However— Kaelyn (34:48):I would even, I would even go so far as to recommend doing everything you can to avoid stepping into anything messy. Rekka (34:54):Yes. Uh, what I might suggest is with all that reading you're doing, um, it might be nice if you, you know, talked on Twitter about what you're reading and, um, and how it's impacting the way you're thinking about your own writing. Like keep it keyed into the fact that you are a writer. Like don't make a review Twitter account, make a, "I am a writer. Here's the subject matter I'm engaged with." And, you know, like, "this makes me think about this in this way as I do my own writing" kinda stuff. Kaelyn (35:28):And along those lines though, you know, it doesn't have to be a review account, but never hesitate to shout out an author who you're reading and either enjoy. Rekka (35:36):Oh absolutely, that's what I'm talking about. But like, for example, I read a book recently where they were dealing with subject matter that I absolutely had plans to approach on my own and I was concerned about a certain aspect of it. And um, this author handled it, you know, in a way that made me go, "okay, this is something to consider as I go into this." Kaelyn (35:57):Never hesitate to, you know, shout out somebody whose work you're enjoying or who, you know, has contributed to your ability to do your own work. It's um, trust me, authors cannot hear that enough. Rekka (36:09):Right. Yeah. Definitely to understand, to know that someone is out there seeing what they're trying to do and appreciating it is a big deal and it will get you maybe—um, I don't know how soon this next one was going to come up, but it might get you a little bit into networking, um, on Twitter, on social media, you know, in your groups and stuff like that. When you are talking about the work that everyone else is doing and appreciating it, and without, you know, posting 10 times a day, "my book is on Amazon at this link," you can also present the fact that you are a writer as part of this discourse. Kaelyn (36:48):It's funny because I was reading something quite a while back about how people get jobs. And most people get jobs through the recommendation of other people or through people they know. Um, I think a lot of that comes from, you know, reputation and, uh, what's the word I'm looking for here? Recommendation. Because, you know, as I always have to, I have to explain sometimes, especially for my previous job where I dealt with a lot of new hires, hiring a new person is expensive. It costs a lot of money to onboard a new full-time employee. Um, which it doesn't seem like it should, but it actually does. The same way authors are an investment. So having friends or just even people, you know, and interact with in the industry who, you know, someone can say, you know, "Rekka, you're an agent, do you happen to know Kaelyn? Like I was interested in working with her possibly like, is she, you know, is she cool? Like, should I talk to her?" And coming to that person to be able to get some feedback on you is, is very important. Um, I think, you know, especially go back and listen to our Agents episode. Agents, you know, have to be very careful about these things and have to be careful about who they choose to work with because somebody who you talked to a few times and they seem like pretty cool and everything, and then they can just go off the rails. That is time and money down the drain that they are not going to recover. Rekka (38:28):Yes. And it's going to make them more nervous to sign the next author—. Kaelyn (38:31):Definitely. Rekka (38:31):—which is not a benefit to anyone. Um, but if you, you know, if you're not even sure where to begin with networking, I would suggest volunteering with some of the organizations that put on conferences, whether they be in person or online. Kaelyn (38:46):Absolutely. Yep. Rekka (38:46):Um, that's a great way, assuming you're reliable that you can build a networking, or at least an awareness of who you are, to people who might be able to help you with a recommendation later, um, whether you know it or not. You know, like if people appreciate the hard work you put in to help with, uh, you know, an event or they appreciate that you were able to run the Slack that, you know, corresponded with, uh, uh, an event that was prerecorded or, you know, whatever else is going on in the world right now, it's hard to predict, but Kaelyn (39:23):Yeah, God only knows if we'll ever have in-person Rekka (39:27):Conferences again. Well, we will certainly be thinking hard about it. Um, but anyway, the, the idea that you proved yourself reliable. Yes. Like that person maybe didn't read your writing, but they can say like you have a good head on your shoulders. You, um, were where you said you would be, when you said you would be there. You signed up and you didn't flake. Um, you were able to go above and beyond by helping people, you know, in ways that wasn't really in the job description or whatever. Kaelyn (39:56):I will tell you, I have my current job because of that. Because yeah, this is because my boss is somebody that knew me before I worked for him. Yeah. And knew that I was a reliable straight-forward person who could do basic math. Yeah. That's the only requirements for my job, basic math. Rekka (40:18):Yeah but the Venn diagram of all those things is a small overlap. But yeah. I mean, you never know how being decent and helpful to somebody is going to pay off later and, you know, do it for altruistic reasons. But it's a good idea too. Kaelyn (40:35):And that's exactly what I was just going to say is," this is not using people. Yeah. This is, you know, you may like, you may feel like squeamish about it. You may feel like, Oh, I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to, like, I feel dirty for just trying to get my face and my name in front of all these people." First of all, you're helping them with something. Okay. So if you want to think of it in terms of that, then think of it as transactional, but that's not necessarily what's going on here. This is how people get involved in things and get introduced and meet people. Um, it's, it's difficult. And for some people, this kind of thing does not come easy. They can't walk into a room and just start chatting people up. But if you have a reason to talk to people? Rekka (41:18):That was exactly what my thinking was. The first time I went to the Nebulas, I volunteered, you know, I'd never been there before, but what I did know was that it was a really long weekend. If I didn't get to know anybody to have conversations with, I was going to be feeling real awkward by that third day. So what I did was I volunteered and I volunteered in the book room, which meant that there were coworkers to speak to, um, people who could, you know, show me the way that the room was working. And then I had conversations with those people about books. I had conversations with those people about publishing. People would walk in and say, "what's good?" And I can make recommendations because I'd been reading in my genre and I knew some of the books in the room, you know, like this works out really well on many levels. Kaelyn (42:01):And by the way, one of the great things here is that if you're volunteering at a writer, writing conference or a science fiction and fantasy conference, you're going to be around other people that enjoy those exact same things. Rekka (42:13):Well, it's easy to have those conversations at the genre conferences rather than like, say it's just the book fair, you know? Um, yeah. It's— Kaelyn (42:22):Well, I wasn't even going, you know, like this is, it's really easy compared to, "Oh, come meet, you know, a group of friends that I know." Rekka (42:29):Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then, then you end up designing a podcast. I mean, yeah. Um, no, the, I think that was the best choice I ever made. I think that's why I had so much fun that first Nebulas conference was because I had a purpose and it wasn't the entire weekend, but then, you know, there were people I could, you know, pass by in the corridors between, um, presentations and panels, who I'd talked to in the book room, you know. And you could smile and nod. And I was getting really good about, you know, just talking to random strangers and that translated into having conversations later in the corridors, in, you know, in the, you know, restaurants and all that kind of stuff, because I'd already sort of like dip my toe in. And in the capacity of like, "this is my job to do this," it really helps. Kaelyn (43:24):And you know, what's, and we've definitely talked about, you know, conferences and all of this stuff before, but just one more thing to sort of reinforce there. A lot of people come to these things by themselves. There is going to be a lot of, you know, single people just walking around who, are just there because, you know, if it's something like the Nebulas that moves every two years, um, you know, maybe it was in their neighborhood and they decided to check it out. Rekka (43:48):This was the year that we're going to try it out. Yeah. And now keep in mind, some people come alone and they're there to have friends and family reunions, basically, with their found families within the community. And you don't want to tread on the toes of people clearly having a more intimate moment, but you know, like being there is the first step. Kaelyn (44:07):Believe me, there is no shortage of friendly people eager to talk to somebody about their favorite Orsen Scott Card book that you're going to find. Yeah. Rekka (44:17):Or, or someone a little more recent like P Djeli Clark or, you know Kaelyn (44:23):Have you been to the Nebulas, Rekka? Rekka (44:25):I have. We clearly ended up in different corners because nobody that I've ever stepped into a conversation with at the Nebulas is going to want to go off about Orsen Scott Card except in a different way than you're referring to. Kaelyn (44:38):Fair. Fair. Rekka (44:38):So anyway, um, you will find your people, they are there, they're in different corners. Check a different one if you didn't find them the first time. But yeah. Um, networking is important and volunteering is a great way to get started in networking. And even though we've currently moved into a virtual space where all these conferences are happening online, there's still a way to network by volunteering. Kaelyn (45:02):Yeah. Absolutely. And by the way, the fact that a lot of these are moving online and hopefully will stay virtual and therefore available to more people will give you more of an opportunity to participate and attend with these. Um, you know, it was definitely a problem that, you know, like there's a lot of these big conferences that had very little virtual presence, and so— Rekka (45:24):Very little virtual presence, and they required you to fly in from another country if you weren't a United States citizen, which therefore like you've already just pretty much blown half of your salary, if not more, for the year just to get here and you haven't even paid to get in the door or for the hotel room yet. So they were very restricted and these online, um, it it's a good thing. And even if we go back to in-person conferences, there needs to be—if you're hearing me conference organizers, I think you already know, but—uh, it needs to, it needs to stay expanded into these virtual spaces. For sure. Kaelyn (45:58):I think one of the things and not to get too sidetracked here, but I think one of the things that put off, you know, apart from sort of this awful gatekeeping aspect of these, these events, but I think one of the things that put off the organizers may have been, "this seems difficult and complicated. I don't know how we do this." And now that everyone was in a position where they have to do it, we've seen that, you know what, it's not actually as difficult and complicated as we thought it was. Rekka (46:22):Only that, but the things that made it difficult and complicated have been solved because it was a problem that everybody shared as compared to when, you know, people who needed this access for, you know, their health and safety were complaining about it but it was a small portion of the population and easy to ignore. Uh, people could just say, "Oh no, no, that's too hard. Sorry. You'll just have to come in person." Now. Now we can say— Kaelyn (46:48):We found out actually, it's not that hard. Rekka (46:49):It's not that hard. We've handled it. And yes, we can have live closed captioning and yes, we can control the quality of that live closed captioning, and should control the quality of that live close captioning. So, um, yes, it has been a big learning year for everybody. Good job us and no more excuses. So let's, uh, let's do that. All right. Sidetrack over, what's next on our outline. Cause you have the outline. I didn't write down any of our notes, Kaelyn (47:12):Actually, that was it on the outline. Rekka (47:14):That was it! All right. We did it! And we have time to leave in the Great British Baking Show references. Just drop a few more like their cake sliding off a tray. Why not? Kaelyn (47:24):I can't remember which season it was that like, they all, like, first of all, here's what I don't get about this show. Every year they film it in the summer in an un-air conditioned tent Rekka (47:38):And are surprised when the chocolate won't temper. Kaelyn (47:43):And the chocolate won't stay together! Rekka (47:43):I was watching, we watched season eight. So what we normally do is watch the Christmas episodes, the holiday episodes. Kaelyn (47:50):Exactly, yes. Rekka (47:50):And, um, so we watched this year's and we were not satisfied because last year we got to binge a whole bunch of them for the first time. And this year there was only one new one. So we, um, we went back and watched season eight and I remember the devastation of Chocolate Week being in the middle of— it was 35º Celsius in the tent when they were trying to cool and set chocolate and temper it. Kaelyn (48:22):Yeah. Anyway. Okay. We should stop. Rekka (48:22):So yes. So when you need to make the ice cream cake of your career, you can set yourself up for success, by at least making sure that you've cooled your, uh, work area on a bunch of really cool genre books that were written in the last five or ten years. That was a little weak, but I'm going to go with it. Kaelyn (48:43):No, no I like it. Keep going. Rekka (48:43):And, um, and then, uh, temper your excitement over that query you just sent out by keeping yourself busy and continuing to work and writing out your goals and your business plan so that when the agent asks you, you don't drop your biscuits on the floor. Kaelyn (49:05):Rekka, that was beautiful. Rekka (49:06):I'm very proud. Kaelyn (49:07):That was stunning. That was truly amazing. Rekka (49:09):Do I get a handshake? Kaelyn (49:09):Yes! Paul Hollywood would be proud of you. Rekka (49:14):Okay. So if you're not watching the Great British Baking Show, I hope you're inspired. They're a thankfully, um, really feel good show and it's nice to watch the contestants help each other and network and be good to each other and take that as your, your role models. Kaelyn (49:32):It really is a, uh, very inspiring show to watch for how you should conduct your career really your lives. Because when I tell people they should watch and they're like, "Oh, I don't like those reality shows. I'm like, no." Rekka (49:44):We didn't think we would either. Kaelyn (49:45):Yeah, I don't either. Everyone is so nice. Rekka (49:47):Everyone is so nice. Even the person that they tease for being heartless, is, I would happily hug. Kaelyn (49:51):Yes. Yes, definitely. Okay. So anyway, so network, um, read. Write. Work on, you know, familiarizing yourself with the genre. Work on building your knowledge base. Make it so that you can have a conversation with people that are going to be important to have conversations with. Rekka (50:08):Or just people who are going to come up the ranks with you. You know, and I say "ranks" as if there's a ladder, but you know what I mean? Like be friends with—. Kaelyn (50:16):There's totally a ladder. Rekka (50:16):Be friends with the people who are entering at the same point as you. And if you surge ahead of them, lift them up behind you. Don't, you know, shut the door and say, "Ha ha! I have excelled beyond my need to be your friend now." Um, that's just hopefully good, common sense and how to be a human, but it's yeah, not everybody, but, um— Kaelyn (50:37):Just remember a rising tide lifts all ships. Rekka (50:39):And also know what you want out of this. Like have a plan and be ready to talk to anybody about it and you can modify it as you get feedback, which is also good. Kaelyn (50:49):There is, there is no one is going to handy with stone, say, "Chisel your plan in it. And this is also your tombstone now." Rekka (50:58):I mean, it might be, you know, the time you take to chisel a message into a stone is time you could have spent writing. Kaelyn (51:05):That's a good point. Yeah. Like with like a computer, which is faster than chiseling into stone. Yeah. Never try to stop improving on this. Especially if there are certain goals that you want to hit and you're not hitting them, you are I—. Rekka (51:19):In other words, if you have goals you want to hit and you're not hitting them, the answer is not to stop and wait for them to come to you. Kaelyn (51:25):Yeah. I'm going to say something that's going to come off sounding kind of mean. And I don't mean it to be. If you have goals that you're trying to hit and you're not hitting them, the problems— it's either you or it's the goal. There are absolutely be some times in your life and your career that you're just going to be unlucky. But, more often than not, there's things you can be always be working towards improving. Rekka (51:47):Even if luck, you know, turns against you, you can keep moving forward. It just might be, you know, a little bit more disheartening. It might be more work. But if you really love this, then you know, you should be up for the challenge. And, you know, hopefully these tips will help you set yourself up to, you know, have tools you need in those darker moments to just keep working on something. Kaelyn (52:10):So for instance, when somebody puts you in a sweltering tent in the middle of a field outside a British estate and tells you to make a chocolate sculpture and it's 35º Celsius and Paul Hollywood is giving you weird looks, you can go, "All right. I trained for this." Rekka (52:24):I guess, I guess that is exactly the metaphor we needed. Kaelyn (52:31):So well anyway, that's, um, you know, we'll leave you there. Hopefully, you know— Rekka (52:35):Hopefully that's enough or made any sense. Kaelyn (52:38):Hopefully it's encouraging or, you know, maybe a little bit of a fresh thought on it. Rekka (52:42):If not, you can yell at us on Twitter or Instagram at @WMBcast, or you can find old episodes at wmbcast.com. And if that really was helpful, somehow you can thank us by supporting us on patreon.com/WMBcast. We do just appreciate anybody who supports us, but, uh, the best help you could give us would be to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and, uh, let people know that you enjoyed the content, how it's helped you. Um, you can even ask us questions through the comments there. Kaelyn (53:16):We love questions. If you send us a question, there's a very good chance we'll talk about it. Rekka (53:20):Yes, cause sometimes we don't know what we're going to talk about until we get on the call. And sometimes it shows. But, uh, yeah, either way, any of the ways that you reach out to us, we look forward to hearing from you and we will talk to you again in a couple weeks.

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Hilary's Links: Tales from the Trunk Podcast Twitter @trunkcast Twitter @hbbisenieks Website hilarybisenieks.com   Transcript (All Mistakes are Fully Rekka's Fault) Kaelyn (00:00:00):Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. My name's Kaelyn Considine, and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:00:09):And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:00:13):This is an exciting episode. We have our second repeat guest. Rekka (00:00:16):Yes, I am looking forward to lots of people coming back on. When we crafted this podcast together, I wasn't sure how many guests we were going to do other than people who were experts on things that we didn't really feel comfortable dispensing advice on, but we've ended up just having like really great conversations where I don't necessarily think it was because we just needed to sit back and get out of the way of somebody. But like, because it's fun to talk to more than one person. And I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to just me all the time. Kaelyn (00:00:48):I could talk to you forever. Rekka (00:00:51):This is true. We have done this. There's no smoked meat now. So like it doesn't feel the same. Kaelyn (00:00:57):I know. We've definitely forgone sleep by like large quantities, because we were just like up talking. Rekka (00:01:04):We had slumber parties in the time before this is so sad. Kaelyn (00:01:07):I know. Yeah. And there's, there's no smoked meat. There's no slumber parties. There's no movie after movie. You don't what I just realized? We didn't actually say who our guest was. Rekka (00:01:18):Is that important? Rekka (00:01:19):No, I just. Rekka (00:01:20):We're terrible hosts. Rekka (00:01:21):We said our second repeat guests, so, Rekka (00:01:24):Well, I mean suspense, that's another genre. Rekka (00:01:26):Suspense. Definitely. We'll give you a hint. Rekka (00:01:28):It's Hilary Bisenieks. Kaelyn (00:01:30):Oh, okay. Or we could just tell you who it is. Rekka (00:01:33):That was my hint. It's just a good hint. I'm being kind at the end of this year. Kaelyn (00:01:36):Well, I was, so we had Hilary came back on to talk to us about trunking stories. Rekka (00:01:41):Well we did say that we were going to have him back on as soon As possible. Kaelyn (00:01:45):We did, yeah. This, this shouldn't. Yeah, this shouldn't be like a huge shock, but yeah, it was a, it was great to have Hilary back on. Um, uh, hopefully you listened to the episode. Rekka (00:01:53):Hopefully you listened to Hilary's podcasts because Tales From The Trunk is just a delightful podcast. It's so much fun. It's one of those great, like "two people who clearly like each other and like having a conversation, talking to each other for a while," and it's very friendly and I love it. Um, as I've said before and will say again. Kaelyn (00:02:10):Very relatable. So yeah. Hilary came on to talk to us about trunking stories today, being somewhat of an expert on the subject. Um, you know, it's a, it's a difficult thing to do, I think, for a lot of writers, it's definitely a milestone. It's definitely like, you know, there's an other side of it where it's like, okay, I have done this thing now. Um, and there's a lot of reasons to do it. Um, it sounds like something that you want to never do, but I think most people will and probably should, at some point in their writing career, trunk a story. Rekka (00:02:45):We're going to have more than one story that you write. Hopefully. You're not just going to write one novel and retire on the proceeds of that one novel. Kaelyn (00:02:52):I mean, that would be great, but like, is that really what you want? Rekka (00:02:55):Yeah. I mean, then you don't want to be a writer. You just want to be famous, right? You're not going to trunk that story if you're that committed. So if you are a writer who plans to be prolific, you're going to stumble into trunking a story at some point or another, you're just going to be done. You're going to move on. And I mean, we're going to go into those reasons in this episode so I won't, you know, distill them again down here. Kaelyn (00:03:20):Don't be ashamed of trunking a story. It's a natural process. It happens to everybody. Just because your friends are acting all cool and like nothing's going on with them. Doesn't mean they have a trunked a story, too. Rekka (00:03:33):Just because your friends on Twitter have announced 10 stories sold this year. Doesn't mean they're not trunking stuff as well. Um, yeah, so it's, it's just something that comes with being a prolific writer. So be proud of it and then hit up Hilary to go on his podcast and read one of your trunked stories to audience, which is just really nice. Um, a nice way to say goodbye to the story, maybe. Kaelyn (00:04:11):So, um, well, you know, speaking of things that are bad— Rekka (00:04:15):I had a segue for the traffic thing before. Oh, speaking of slowing it down. That's what I was going to use. Yeah. So we have a guest who might sound somewhat familiar to you. Kaelyn (00:04:27):Our second returning guest. This is so exciting. Rekka (00:04:30):Yes. And um, so Hilary Bisenieks is back. A triumphant return— Hilary (00:04:35):Woohoo! Rekka (00:04:35):—to help us talk about quitting. Hilary (00:04:41):I'm an expert at quitting. Kaelyn (00:04:42):Has come back to talk about quitting. No, specifically, we're talking about, uh, trunking stories today, what that means, why and when you should do it? Rekka (00:04:52):And can you reverse it? Kaelyn (00:04:54):Yeah. Is, is this permanent? Is this, uh, something that you have to live with for the rest of your life? So Hilary you're the, you're the expert on trunking, uh, for those of you who didn't listen to the previous episode Hilary joined us on, Hilary is the host of a very awesome podcast called Tales From The Trunk. Um, Hilary, do you want to tell everyone about that real quick? Hilary (00:05:16):Absolutely. Uh, Tales From The Trunk, subtitled Reading The Stories That Didn't Make It, is a podcast where I talk monthly with authors from all over science fiction, fantasy and horror about stories they've trunked. Every author comes on with a trunked short story or a selection of a trunked novel. They read that. We talk about why they trunked it. And then we just chat about being writers for the remainder of an hour. Uh, it has been described as just sitting around listening to a couple of friends chat. Kaelyn (00:05:52):I mean, those are the best kinds of podcasts. Um, so Hilary, before we, you know, get too far into this, as you know, our listeners know, I always like to start with definitions. So, um, for those who didn't listen to the previous episode you were on, can you, uh, tell us what it means to trunk a story? Hilary (00:06:09):Absolutely. So trunking a story is the moment that you decide "I can't sell this for whatever reason, I'm not going to continue trying to submit it. Or in some cases I'm not going to try to submit it at all." And, uh, that comes from any number of reasons, uh, which we will get into, but Kaelyn (00:06:33):Oh we're going to get into it! Yes definitely. Yeah. So, you know, if you're a, if you're in the writing sphere, if you, you know, frequent areas that writers collect, you've probably seen, you know, people talking about trunking a story and you know, kind of going like, "well, what the heck does that mean?" So exactly as Hilary said, you know, it's kind of like, "I'm quitting on this story." That's making it sound so much more dire than it than it actually is. But, um, you've gotten to a point where you're like, "I either don't think I can sell this or maybe I don't have the energy to try to continue selling this. I've just gotten disheartened to the point that for my mental health, I have to walk away from it." Um, but yeah, you're taking the story and you're putting it in a trunk and not going to think about it anymore. Rekka (00:07:20):And I like to imagine that, like, that's the trunk you find in your grandparent's attic. So someday, like someone's going to explore your—well these days, your computer hard drive. Hilary (00:07:28):Yep. Rekka (00:07:29):And, um, so you better change all the icons on your writing folders to look like little trunks, if you, if you decide to put a story away. But, um, Hilary also pointed out really quick there that you might've blinked and missed it, that, um, you can also trunk a story that you've never attempted to sell. Kaelyn (00:07:47):Yes, yes. Hilary (00:07:48):Yep. Rekka (00:07:49):And that might be like more like the secret novel that you didn't know, your grandmother wrote kind of thing. Um, because it was like, so passionate, your grandmother was this like adorable church lady Hilary (00:07:59):Uh, or it can be something that you decided you had no place in writing. Rekka (00:08:04):Also a good, good thing to consider. "Um, am I the right person to tell this story? Like, yes, I had this idea and yes, I had fun writing it, but maybe it's not for me to tell." Um, so that's, uh, that's a good point. So let's start from there. Like trunking a story, you just finished it, you're looking at it, you sit on it maybe a couple of weeks, a month or something, and you just feel like there's something about this that I don't want to take it out into the world. Now for that reason, I'm assuming not too many of your guests have ever come on and read a trunk story that they wrote and didn't want in the world. Hilary (00:08:38):No, no. They, uh, I think that I'm the only person who has brought a story onto the show that I was embarrassed of, um, which felt like the right decision. Honestly, I had a, of, um, I had a lot of good things to talk about with that particular story. Um, but I've had this situation for myself, certainly a number of times, especially right after the 2016 election, I wrote a lot of, uh, very angry stories that were from the experiences of people who are not me, who are much more marginalized than I was. And I was, you know, angry and scared. And then I finished the stories and I kind of treated it like free therapy in some ways. Kaelyn (00:09:34):Yeah. Yeah nothing wrong with that. Rekka (00:09:34):And said, "Okay, I exorcised this from myself and now I can stick it into—" uh, I think I just call it my "retired" folder, but, uh, I've been meaning to change that to a trunk. Kaelyn (00:09:47):I was going to say, not trunked? I'm very disappointed. Rekka (00:09:50):Well, you know, that would come up every time he did a search for his podcast files. Kaelyn (00:09:54):That's a good point. That's a very good point. Rekka (00:09:54):So if he calls it the same thing that it's going to tangle up, all his files, that makes sense. Kaelyn (00:09:59):Yeah. So, you know, this is kind of a way to segue into like, well, why would you trunk a story? So, you know, we've kind of, you know, for logical and human reasons kind of put this into, "maybe this, isn't your story to tell maybe this isn't something that you want to be putting out into the world," but past that then where you've got to make a personal decision, you know, why is this something that an author would decide to do? Um, you know, we talk a lot about on this show about how much time and effort it takes to write something, even, you know, a short story versus a novel. Don't— I go online and, you know, I'm in all these writers groups and then the discourse and the slacks, and everyone just keeps telling you, "you got to just keep trying, you got to keep trying it's, something's gonna, you know, if you, as long as you try some things eventually going to happen," but trunking a story seems to be completely opposite of that. That is not the case. Rekka (00:10:55):There is an element of energy that it takes to keep putting yourself out in the world over and over and over again. And at a certain point, I think when you love a story so much, and it just keeps getting rejected, it's almost protective that you just can't take it anymore, or this deserves better than that you know, 1 cent per word market, or this deserves better than going to a, uh, exposure-only payment method. You know, at some point you go, "maybe I'll just keep this for me" or "maybe I'll hang onto it and it can be part of a like single author anthology later "or something. But I don't know if that ladder counts as trunking, but I think we might get back to that too. Kaelyn (00:11:40):We'll certainly come back to that. Hilary (00:11:42):I, I kind of considered that level to be provisional trunking, that there are, there are stories that are in my... there are some stories that are still in my active folder that I haven't sent out in a couple of years, just because I've been waiting on the right market to reopen for them, or just because I haven't reorganized my writing folder. But there are stories in my actual trunked folder that I still stand behind. And if the opportunity came up, if somebody, you know, called me up tomorrow and said, "Hey, we like your writing. We want a whole bunch of it right now." I would be able to pull out and say, okay, yeah, this is still representative of me. Rekka (00:12:34):So on sabbatical, not retirement. Hilary (00:12:36):Yeah. Kaelyn (00:12:39):So let's kind of talk real quickly through some, some reasons, you know, to trunk something beyond, uh, you know, the more definitive ones that we had mentioned here. So one, obviously, you know, as Rekka had mentioned: exhaustion. This is you're to a point where you're like, look, I love this story. It's not selling for whatever reason. Maybe you've gotten really good feedback about it, but you just can't get a bite on it and you've hit the wall. This is as much as you can do with it. The cost of the emotional labor is too high for your own, you know, sanity and mental well-being, you have to stop doing this at a certain point. Um, another reason. So that's, you know, that's one assuming like good feedback, the flip side of that is maybe not so good feedback on the story. Um, and you know, when we'll, we'll talk about this more, but when a story becomes quote-unquote unfixable, and that's when it's time to stop on that side. Um, but you know, another reason might be that, you know, as Hilary had said, this isn't the right time for this story, for whatever reason, you know, environmentally in the publishing sphere that you're interested in, you know, maybe you wrote, you know, maybe you had the misfortune of writing a teenage vampire book back in the early two thousands, and just so happened to coincide with all of the other teenage vampire books that were, uh, being released at that point. Rekka (00:14:05):Or for example, you have a anthology story that was a themed anthology, and you didn't quite make it, and it's still a good story. And they told you it was a close call, et cetera. So you really want to rush it off to the next market, but everyone else who was rejected from that themed anthology has a story with the same theme. And now they're going to flood the rest of the markets with those stories. And those stories, those editors are going to know that there was a themed anthology call recently because of how many stories they're going to get like this. And that's another sabbatical sort of, um, item, but, um, another instance where good feedback does not necessarily mean send it right back out again. Kaelyn (00:14:48):Yeah. So let's, let's spend some time talking, you know, the good feedback side of this and the reasons that you might trunk something that has been receiving good feedback. So, you know, as we said, one of those could be the emotional and mental cost and labor of this. It's a lot of work to submit stories. Um, anybody who tells you like, "Oh, whatever, you just go online and you drop the file in there and you click it," um, clearly has not been doing this or has been doing it wrong. So there's the time. But then there's also the emotional and mental labor aspect of this. If this keeps getting rejected, that's going to wear on you. That's really difficult to just have to deal with day in and day out. Especially if it's a story that everyone's telling you, "I loved this. This is great. I have a couple little notes, but nothing, you know, nothing major," that can be very difficult to deal with. And, you know, like we were joking about quitting, but I, I don't necessarily like to think of it as quitting. I like to think of it as, you know, being realistic and, you know, taking good care of yourself. Rekka (00:15:55):Well, sometimes you quit a job to take good care of yourself. Isn't that true, Kaelyn? Kaelyn (00:15:58):Oh, yes. Yes. Rekka (00:16:01):So let's not forget that quitting is not always, uh, a failure on your part. Sometimes it is literally saying, um, "I need to not be here right now." And sometimes not being here right now means not being in the trenches of getting constant rejections or waiting 83 days to get a rejection or more. Kaelyn (00:16:20):And by the way, the quitting analogy is actually very good because I quit a job that was, um, it wasn't great. And I went to a much better one. So sometimes, you know, walking away from something that is maybe doing things that aren't great for your mental health and stability gives, opens you up to walk away and go to something that is going to be better and may actually help improve that. Hilary (00:16:46):Yeah. Rekka (00:16:47):Right. So in this case, stopping focus on like one story and revising it every time you get feedback and instead, like going and writing something fresh and, you know, using all the skills you've developed as a writer, writing all these other stories that maybe didn't make it, they're all going to create the story that does. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:17:03):As writers, I'd be curious from both of you about the obsessive characteristic of this, if you can get very obsessed and infatuated with revising and tweaking and fixing a story so that somebody will see how awesome it is and take it. Hilary (00:17:20):Yes. Rekka (00:17:22):I think a lot of that, at least speaking for myself, and some folks I've talked to is the, uh, inability to have the confidence in your own work to say, "no, I, I meant to do it this way. Um, and there are reasons why your feedback is, while appreciated, not appropriate in this case." And so when you are submitting, you have essentially put yourself in mode of, "I am seeking external validation for myself and my work" and when you don't get it, but you do get feedback, that's pinging something in you, I think. And when you're, when you've set your mind to that mode of looking for other people to approve of you, when they tell you what it would have taken for them to approve of you, it's very easy to then feel like you need to follow through on that unsolicited or solicited advice. Kaelyn (00:18:16):You don't think it's coming more from the, like the obsession with the story. So much as the obsession of getting somebody to say yes to the story and therefore validate it. Rekka (00:18:29):Part. Well, so there are people who never stop fiddling with a story, um, and they might submit it and then go look at it again and go, "Oh, you know what, I'm going to do that differently." I am the type where if I'm submitting it, I don't look at the story again. I will open it and make sure that nothing's gone wonky with the formatting and then I will send it off. And, um, if I hear back with someone else's advice, now I'm like, "okay, now I know what I would be looking for if I opened that document again." But if I just am myself without any external input, opening a document, like I could fiddle with it forever. And I know that, so I tend to be better about not fiddling once I say, "okay, this is done, I'm sending it off" because I know how frustrated I would be if I decided to change something and it's out with somebody at that moment. Hilary (00:19:25):Yeah. From my perspective, uh, you know, I, I answered yes, extremely quickly because when I was a brand new writer, I absolutely, I think kind of like what Rekka was saying, not having that confidence in my own work, but also, uh, because of how long it can take to write a short story and get it to a place where you want to submit it. I think, especially when you are young, when you are new to the field—uh, and I'm speaking purely from my experience in this—I pinned all of my success on that one story. My, you know, my feeling was, and especially because I had very positive feedback right out of the gate through a series of, uh, very privileged happenstances that I had, you know, all this great feedback immediately on this first short story that I ever sent out. And I thought, "okay, I have to sell this one because I don't know if I can do that again." Kaelyn (00:20:50):Yeah. I think, you know, the, the investment, and I don't even just mean time investment in this as like, is a major factor. It's like, it's the sunk cost fallacy. "I've gotten so far in this and I have done so much and everybody's telling me, just keep pushing, just keep trying." So, you know, that said, as you know, both of you have trunked stories that you've gotten very good feedback on that people have enjoyed. And for whatever reason, they just, you know, didn't, didn't go where you wanted them to. Um, I'm going to start with Hilary and then we'll go to Rekka. What happened that you said, "okay, now it's time to stop?" Hilary (00:21:32):I didn't think the story represented me anymore. That's, that's usually the reason I trunk stories at this point. If I have been submitting them, I trunk them because they are not something that I want to attach my name to anymore. Uh, especially I'm thinking about the stories that I was writing, you know—I started writing, uh, with an aim to get published 15 years ago. And me 15 years ago, uh, is, was a very different person than me in 2020. Kaelyn (00:22:16):Yeah, of course. Hilary (00:22:17):Um, in a way that like me from 2015, isn't as different that there are still stories I send out from 2015, but, or would if I had markets for them, but, uh, stories from 20, from 2005. Absolutely not. Kaelyn (00:22:38):Okay. Yep. Rekka, how about you? What's, uh, what's an example or two of a time you were like, okay, it's time to be done with this? Rekka (00:22:45):You're going to be very sad that, um, my answer is basically the same as Hilary's, but also— Kaelyn (00:22:51):Oh. That is a little disappointing. Rekka (00:22:51):Yeah, I knew you would be disappointed in me. Kaelyn (00:22:56):I was hoping for some sort of like, "I had a dream and a cat appeared to me and said, 'Rekka there's a new story.'" Rekka (00:23:02):See here's the thing. I haven't, I haven't trunked the cat story yet. I'm not giving up on that one yet. Um, Kaelyn's read that story. Kaelyn (00:23:12):Hilary, have you read the cat story? Hilary (00:23:14):I have not yet. Rekka (00:23:14):Hilary hasn't. Hilary might get to hear it next spring because I might trunk it by then. Kaelyn (00:23:21):Okay, so we have no spoilers. Rekka (00:23:22):We're not referring to the cat story now. We're referring to a very short piece of flash fiction I wrote for a library contest and it won the library contest and it was supposed to appear in an anthology that they were going to print cause they had a new espresso machine, which is a book printer, not an espresso machine. And I'm. Hilary (00:23:43):confusingly enough. Rekka (00:23:45):I'm not sure Kaelyn (00:23:46):Especially considering how often books and coffee shops overlap. Rekka (00:23:49):Right. You really would think that they would have at least called it an eXpresso machine or something like that. Kaelyn (00:23:55):I'm just like, I'm picturing like this, you know, things showing up and they're like, this box is gigantic. It's just supposed to be a coffee machine. What's it here. Okay. Rekka (00:24:03):I think you would notice if you accidentally bought an espresso book machine. They're about, I think $12,000 or something like that. If there Kaelyn (00:24:10):There are coffee machines that cost that much. Hilary (00:24:13):I was going to say, I just read this year's take down of the Williams-Sonoma holiday catalog. Rekka (00:24:19):Oh, Kaelyn (00:24:20):There's a take-down of it? Hilary (00:24:21):There is an annual takedown of it. Uh, the most expensive item in the catalog every year is somehow a coffee apparatus. Kaelyn (00:24:31):Well, so this is, um, this is very funny because, uh, I'm gonna just, you know what, I'm not sure when this, this episode's getting posted after Christmas. So Rekka will have her present from me by then, which is a coffee based thing from Williams-Sonoma. Rekka (00:24:46):I hope it's the coffee based thing. I'd be really disappointed if it's not at least several grands worth of coffee of apparatus. Kaelyn (00:24:54):It's not the $12,000 espresso machine. Be it either something that makes coffee or something that makes books, but it is a coffee based device from Williams-Sonoma. Rekka (00:25:05):Imagine if I could become a small press just like that. Kaelyn (00:25:09):Um, you could, you could become a kind of a small coffee shop, maybe? Hilary (00:25:17):You could become an Aeropress. Eyyyyyy. Rekka (00:25:18):Nicely done. Kaelyn (00:25:23):Very well done. Extra points for puns on this show. Rekka (00:25:26):Always. Um, so I, okay. Now I have, now I remember what I was talking about. Sorry, we went off coffee. I was like, wait, also my coffee mug is almost empty. So like now I'm just upset. Kaelyn (00:25:42):Yeah that's exactly how you distract Rekka all the time. "Rekka. Rekka... Coffee with heavy cream." Rekka (00:25:50):Um, so they were going to print an anthology on their espresso machine book, printer, and never did. And so I was like, I'm going to go ahead and say that two years is enough time that if there were a contract, which there wasn't, that the rights would have reverted to me by now. So I started shopping around and it wasn't getting any hits and it wasn't like super fantasy or science fiction or anything. It was kind of just like on the edge of reality kind of thing. So I wasn't super committed to it. It wasn't very long, so it wasn't like it was going to get me, you know, very far along those SFWA guidelines for membership, you know, um, for the minimum word count, you got to sell at a pro rate. And, um, and then, yeah, I think I opened it one time to see if I should revise it. And I was kind of like, "you know what, this is not that great a story. I'm like, it might've been pressed the library, but this is not reflective of what I can do." So I stuck it in a folder. Hilary (00:26:48):The story that I brought on to the Tables Turned episode of my podcast, where I had Sharon Hsu interview me, instead of me interviewing her, faced a very similar set of circumstances where I wrote it in 2011 and sold it to, uh, a semipro market in the beginning of 2012. And got a contract, returned the contract, never got a countersigned one sent back to me. This was 2012 and people were still sending things through the mail. And then never heard anything from the market, uh, for over a year and then heard, "Hey, we found this. We were meaning to publish it. We'd like to put it in this feature and we've upped our pay rates. Would you like us? Can we still do that?" And I said, "Yes, please. And can you send me a new contract?" And then never heard anything from them? Uh, and I think I submitted it one more time maybe after that. Uh, I think to the first open submission period for Uncanny, and then it came back rightfully and I looked at it and I said, "Oh, this is, this is not great. I don't want to attach my name to this anymore." And so. Rekka (00:28:29):Thank goodness that contract never showed up. Hilary (00:28:30):I did the smart thing and read it publicly on a podcast that you can go download for free right now. Kaelyn (00:28:36):Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's interesting because both of you, um, you've kind of, you touched on something and, you know, as I said with, you know, "tell me about the time you've talked a story" and both of you said, "well, the story wasn't really representative of me anymore." Um, and you both skirted around something, well Hilary, you just dove into it, which is, "I don't think it was good anymore. And I didn't want my name on this." Um, so I'm going to take that and segue us into the other reason you may trunk a story is apart from you deciding this is isn't good. I don't want my name on this. Maybe be getting some negative feedback here about, uh, about your story and whether or not you should continue to try to publish it. Um, I will, uh, put on the editor hat here in a minute and talk about— Rekka (00:29:30):Cause you haven't been wearing the editor hat this whole time. Kaelyn (00:29:33):Um, first of all, they're editor headphones, Hilary (00:29:37):I was gonna say. Rekka (00:29:37):Hang on, I've got a, I've got a hood. I can put the, the editor up. Rekka (00:29:43):This is so, so we can't spit in her eye when we get the feedback. Rekka (00:29:47):This is, this is so like, this is so I don't have to like actually, you know, make eye contact when I'm telling people this story is a tear down. Um, um, but yeah, so, you know, you both have kind of mentioned, you know, instances of like, "I, I really don't want my name on this and out in the world." And I'm assuming that kind of just comes from growing and changing and developing your craft as an author. And, you know, like, you know, we all look back at the thing we colored when we were, you know, a kid and be like, "Oh God, I remember being so proud of this." And, um, you know, you do you change and you grow and develop as a writer. And, um, but so then why out of curiosity, did you not go back and revise? What made you say "I can't, this is not something I can work with anymore." Hilary (00:30:39):TBH. I thought about it. And then I thought, you know, this is, I can spend my energy better on writing a new, better story. The things specifically in, in this story that were, that I didn't want to attach my name to anymore, weren't necessarily, uh, an intrinsic part of the story, but I didn't feel like I wanted to spend the energy to navigate around the ways that they were problematic. Kaelyn (00:31:21):Okay. Hilary (00:31:22):Uh, that like the text, the prose itself was functional. I having read it out loud on this show. I found problems with it that I could have dodged by just reading it out loud to begin with. But the things that I objected to were more on the content side of like, when I wrote it in 2011, I thought that I was a cis straight dude and I am a bisexual genderqueer disaster. Rekka (00:31:58):So the story isn't reflective of your truth anymore. Hilary (00:32:01):Yes. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:32:02):Well, I mean, you know, there's, it was more, there's the, the bisexual gender. I, I refuse to acknowledge or accept you as a disaster. I'm going to, I'm going to change that to force of nature. Hilary (00:32:19):I will take that. Kaelyn (00:32:19):Um, you know, that was just inside looking to come out and, uh, you know, come out. Hilary (00:32:30):Come out? Eyyyyyy. Kaelyn (00:32:30):It's just looking inside looking to get out into the world there. And uh, okay. So yeah, no that's, and I think that's something, you know, I, I don't really write, um, uh, fiction. I have written academically and it is funny you say that because I go back and I have the opposite thing now where I go back and look at stuff that I wrote that like, you know, some things I had published and I'm like, "Oh my God, was this me? I don't like, I don't remember being this insightful." And I don't think I actually, I'm not sure if it was insightfulness, or if it was exhausted and my professors were like, ah, yes, this is clearly I, uh, a smart person or, you know, I was basically just like drooling onto a page and trying to make sense of it at that. Rekka (00:33:18):What you're saying is that you reached enlightenment while writing that. Kaelyn (00:33:22):I, I don't, there are like papers that every now and then I dig up and I'm like, "I genuinely have no memory of writing this, but I clearly did a lot of research here." And like, I think, especially when I was in grad school, I was in just like such a, a haze of, you know, like I was reading three books a week and having to write 7 to 10 pages on them within that time. And then like, you know, then you get to the things that you're actually doing research on. Um, but it is interesting because, you know, if you told me to go back, like, I think like, you know, 10 years later now, I'm, I don't want to say more intelligent, but I think like I have a lot more information and, you know, stuff that I've gathered and I certainly have access to, you know, different things and I've just lived life. Rekka (00:34:10):Yeah. I was going to say the context or experience is a big part of it. Rekka (00:34:13):Yeah. Yeah. I still don't think I could recreate that time where I was just completely submerged in all of this. So, um, you know, I think like life stages have a lot to do with like what you're generating and like what, you know, you can go back and look at something and say like, "Oh, well, I don't remember this exactly. But based on what I've written here, this must have been when this was happening in my life." Um, but anyway, so I'd like to kind of pivot back to, you know, you guys had both, you know, said things that you're like, "I can't fix this. I can't, this isn't worth my time and energy have more to do with, um, it's not representative me anymore and it's not worth trying to fix." Rekka (00:34:55):For me. It was that, um, this piece wasn't really genre. So I, wasn't going to go outside of my genre markets that I'm looking at to find a place to submit it to, what, build a name that nobody cares about? You know, like there'll be one 501 word story out there in a non genre magazine, or, you know, maybe? Um, it just like, you know, I could write of 5,000 word version of this story, and that might be interesting to do, but like I was exploring, it was a, um, a word prompt, you know, challenge. So everyone, I think, honestly the word prompt was "writer." And so I, you know, like I, wasn't going to write super fantasy about it. I could have, but I just sort of had this idea and I went with it. I think I turned it in the next day or something like that. And they picked it like, so it barely got revised. It barely got re-read. And, um, it's not really representative, not just of me as a writer and what I'm capable of, but of the rest of my body of work. You know, like 500 words. I'm not going to sit here and revise it to add more fantasy or add more science fiction. I'm just going to let it go. Hilary (00:36:09):Yeah. Kaelyn (00:36:10):One of the things that's really interesting and what I like hearing from both of you is a level of self-awareness that you don't find in humanity a lot. And Rekka always teases me about, um, about like how, what I think of writers as like, as a collective and whatever. But one of the things that I will say that I always find with writers is they're self-aware to the point of their own detriment. Hilary (00:36:33):That is a mood. Rekka (00:36:36):And are you still self-aware of like, if you're going far off the other end where you are, so self-deprecating, you know, it's, it's one thing to be not— Kaelyn (00:36:45):Yeah, no, it's, there's, there's a cer there's definitely like, you know, there's a surface tension that's going to break at some points to be sure. Um, but Mo a lot of writers are incredibly self-aware. Um, obviously not all of them, because the other reason that it might be time to trunk a story— Rekka, that is the saddest thing I've ever seen in my life. Rekka (00:37:07):I told you I'm in a shed. I can't just like wave my coffee mug in the air and make someone come and fill it for me. Kaelyn (00:37:12):I'm so concerned for you right now. And I just really hope— Rekka (00:37:15):I just tilted my head back—for our, for our listeners, if I don't trim this out—I tilted my head back to get the last of my coffee out of my mug. And I tapped to the bottom so that, Kaelyn (00:37:23):No. No, tap implies a much more gentle action than what was taking place there. This was a, like, "you give that to me right now." Rekka (00:37:33):I mean, yes. Hilary (00:37:34):This was a glass bottle of ketchup at a diner sort of motion. Kaelyn (00:37:39):Yes that's exactly what that was like, you know, like someone's holding it up to their eye. Like, that's exactly what was happening there. Rekka (00:37:46):Look, I like coffee. Kaelyn (00:37:48):We know honey. Um, but the other reason, you know, the, if we're go into a little bit of the more depressing side, maybe the side where you're not the one that makes the decision that it's time to trunk a story and other people are telling you too, is that the story is I am just going to say it: unfixable. As, you know, an editor as somebody who reads a lot of submissions, you know, I have come across multiple instances of novel length books that are unfixable. Rekka (00:38:21):I have a question. Kaelyn (00:38:23):Sure. Rekka (00:38:23):Because while revising, you can literally replace every word in the story. Kaelyn (00:38:28):Jason and the Argonauts, if you replace all of the pieces of the boat, is it still the original boat? Rekka (00:38:33):Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, if this happens over multiple revision passes and you, you know, are the same person, roughly, as you work on it, is it not possible to replace all the words over a period of time and turn it into a better story. Kaelyn (00:38:53):Okay. So let's talk about that because, and this is, you know, something where I know I'm going to be on the, uh, the defensive here a tiny bit, because. Rekka (00:39:01):No, you are the aggressor here. I'm sorry. Hilary (00:39:02):You have uttered fightin' words to a couple of writers. Kaelyn (00:39:09):Writers do not like to hear that something is unfixable. Rekka (00:39:12):I can edit this out too. I can make her say anything I want. I can change every word in this podcast. I have hours and hours of Kaelyn speaking. Hilary (00:39:23):It's just going to be me uttering nonsequitors. Kaelyn (00:39:28):This entire podcast is just going to be reduced to us laughing about coffee. Yes. Rekka (00:39:32):If it must be, it must be that will make it better, at least right, than you telling us that we didn't write a story and we have to put it away. Kaelyn (00:39:39):So here's the thing. Editors also do not like to say something is unfixable. Me as an editor, all I want to do is fix this. All I want to do is, and there's actually, I've shown Rekka a couple instances of like stories I got. And I wrote, like there was one of them, I think I wrote five pages single-spaced of just notes and like the first two were identifying all of the problems. And then the third remaining three were okay, here's how we fix this. And I remember showing it to, uh, to Collin Coyle. And he was like, "Kaelyn, this is supposed to be a pretty much completed draft somebody turned in, you've read this, sat down and spit this out in an hour and a half. This is nowhere near a complete list of what, you know, would have to be done here. And you're basically suggesting that they take everything they did and start over. This story is not fixable." And he was right. But I don't like to admit that because I am—not just in terms of stories, in terms of everything in my life—I'm a fixer. Rekka (00:40:46):Well I think most people are. You go on Twitter and say you have a problem and you will have so many comments, so fast, of people giving you advice that you didn't ask for us. This is human nature. Kaelyn (00:40:55):Is that, is that people who just want to give you advice or is that people who like genuinely want to fix something? Rekka (00:41:03):It happened to me today. A friend told me a situation that they had that was untenable. And my immediate reaction was "well, could you...?" You know, and it wasn't because I was thinking that they were incapable of solving this on their own. It's just, I really enjoy solving problems. That's why I code, you know, like when I, when I find that semi-colon in PHP that's broken everything, like I'm really happy. Hilary (00:41:24):Ughhh, PHP. Kaelyn (00:41:25):I mean, look, I work in, you know, I work in sales and like, this is, you know, I always, whenever I have to train someone new or whenever I have to, you know, talk about something, I always say, "they're coming to you because they don't, they may not realize it, but they have a problem. They need something to, you know, help with whatever. So that's what you're, you know, you're helping with here as you're being a problem solver." I wanna... But here's the thing. I want to make the distinction between problem solving and fixing, because problem solving is helping is, you know, trying to mitigate a situation, to an extent. Fixing something is "there are things that are broken here and we need to glue them back together. We need to pop them back into place so that the machine can go back to ticking." Kaelyn (00:42:10):Um, I don't like to think that there are stories that are unfixable, but there absolutely are. It's not pleasant, especially considering how much time and effort go into these. And sometimes that may be the problem. Is that, you know, you have like, like, you know, like with cooking, like if you, I, I love to cook. And one of the most important things about cooking is knowing that when a dish is done. Where you're like, "Okay, this is it. I don't need to put any more garnish on this. It doesn't need any more salt. It doesn't need any more seasoning me adding more butter to this is not going to improve upon it." It's now over cooked or the sauce is separated or, you know, whatever. So I always kind of lump stories that are unfixable into two categories. Um, one is that the story is a mess. Um, this is a trap I think a lot of writers fall into where they get very excited and then get overwhelmed. Rekka (00:43:12):How dare you. Kaelyn (00:43:12):I know both of you are feeling very personally attacked right now. Hilary (00:43:15):You come into my house on my zoom. Rekka (00:43:17):Exactly. Kaelyn (00:43:20):But writers, you know, have a lot, especially, you know, in the genres that Rekka, Hilary, and I live in and, you know, fantasy, horror, science fiction, where you've got to create so much stuff and you can just come up with all of these things. And it's like, it's like word vomit. It's just like, it just keeps coming and coming and coming. And it makes the story a mess. You lose track of character arcs, you lose track of plot lines, you lose track of themes because the story is just so ladened down with so many different things. And it could be, you know, it could be the world building is too much, there's too much detail and that's resulting in things being inconsistent. And it's not simply a matter of, okay, we have to make it line up consistently. It could be well, that affects the plot of the story. Kaelyn (00:44:06):You know, like you have one character explaining that the magic system works this way, but another character that's completely flying in the face of it. And that's, they do something that is relevant, you know, pivotal even, to the plot moving forward. So there's no way to fix that. Um, you could have too many characters, you could have too many points of view. And some of these sound, you know, individually maybe a thing that you address, but when they're all together, you're just, it's, it's too much. The story at that point is a tear down, where maybe you can salvage the foundation of it, but you're going to have to really like, do some major, major remodeling. Rekka (00:44:48):You're literally describing what happened with Flotsam. I worked on this story. I worked on this story for 14 years, but the version that made it to the shelves did not exist until 2016. You know, like the, the story was, um, my NaNoWriMo project every year. And then I would revise it. And as I was rereading it, I would go, Oh, but what if I also, and I always also had it into it. So it just kept getting bigger and more ungainly and yeah. Kaelyn (00:45:18):"Ooh, But what if I also" is emblazoned on the outside of so many trunks with stories in them. That is the epitaph on the tombstone. Rekka (00:45:27):Yeah. Hilary (00:45:28):Yeah. I've been in the situation though. And I think that this comes up more in short fiction than in longer form stuff, where I have ripped and replaced an entire story because the concept of it wouldn't leave my brain. And I think that's the coming back to earlier of "why didn't I try to fix this one trunked story?" I was over the concept. And I've rewritten other stories from the ground up with entirely new characters, but the same basic hook, because I couldn't get over the hook. Kaelyn (00:46:09):This is where I was, you know, kind of saying like where you get fixated and infatuated with something. Like you just, there's this thing in your ear that you just, you can't let go of, um, Rekka (00:46:19):But that doesn't necessarily create messy drafts. The way that overworking one draft does. Kaelyn (00:46:24):Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. Another time where it's time to trunk a story is you need to work on your writing. There isn't a lot we can do with this story until you get better as a writer. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways and resources to improve on writing, hone your craft. Um, you know, one is just writing. Two, You know, take a class. There's lots of great online classes get involved in writing groups. And you know, that's a, that's a whole topic for another time, but if you're not doing a good job with the actual writing, the story is not going to go anywhere. It's not going to sell. And by the way, speaking of, you know, then being in another place, when you come back to revisit this, you may just start over anyway, because all of the time you spent developing yourself as a writer is going to bring a fresh perspective to this story. Rekka (00:47:17):If you come back to it all at that point. Kaelyn (00:47:19):If you come back to it all at that point. Um, so yes, unfortunately there are unfixable stories. Um, it's apart from, you know, the time and effort and emotional labor involved in this, there are some points where, you know, you and probably in combination with someone else are going to hit a wall where you just have to say, "it is time for me to be done with this now. I have done everything that I can do. And maybe I've done too much." Rekka (00:47:48):If only they'd said that with The Last Jedi. Kaelyn (00:47:52):Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hilary (00:47:55):Yep. Rekka (00:47:55):At every level we can fall victim to this. Um, yeah. So, you know, it's funny while we were talking, um, I went back to my trunked folder and I did notice that I have a note about this story. Cause I put a story in a folder, because if like there are different versions of it, if I have, you know, a, a version for anonymous submissions or I have a version where they wanted Times and a version where they wanted Courier, I have, you know, each file saved separately. And so each story gets a folder. And the note for this one says "in the drawer, maybe rewrite?" So like, you know, 500 words would be a total rewrite, not like rework. Um, you will also be happy to know that I did apparently have the cat story in that folder. Um, except it is out on submission right now. So, um, I obviously didn't care, uh, that I decided to trunk it. Um, it has been at one market for 106 days now. So just kind of out of mind, out of sight. I don't know whether I put it in the folder before or after I sent it off. Kaelyn (00:48:56):So Hilary, you know, as kind of, kind of the expert here on, on trunking stories, what advice do you have for people who are, you know, can't quite figure out if they've hit the wall yet? Hilary (00:49:11):Oh, geez. Kaelyn (00:49:15):Well, you've been on this show before. You knew we were going to ask you—, Hilary (00:49:18):But last time I brought the ending question. Kaelyn (00:49:22):That's a good point. Hilary (00:49:25):Um, you know, on my show, I get to ask those hard questions and not have to answer them. Um, so the things I would say, if you're not sure about trunking something are really just set it aside for two weeks. If you still feel like, and it doesn't have to be two weeks, but like pick an arbitrary amount of time that is longer than a day to let the story sit and see if it still compels you. And you don't have to reread it in order to decide if it's still compelling to you, just whatever your metric is for you believe in this story. Hilary (00:50:16):If that's something that you still want to put out into the world, and if you have the energy to do that, then don't trunk it. You can put it on hiatus. You can say this is waiting for a specific market. I've sat on stories for, I sat on a story for six months this year, because PseudoPod only is open for original fiction submissions during October. And I knew that this was a horror story that hadn't yet been out to PseudoPod and I wanted to try it on them. And got rejected. It's out at another market. That'll be okay. And this is, you know, this is a story with 20-something-odd rejections under its belt. There's no threshold of rejections. There's no threshold of markets. It is, "Does this story still means something to you?" Yeah. Um, and if it still means something to you, you could still decide to trunk it, because I like nothing better than to be a contradiction. Hilary (00:51:28):You could, you know, you could trunk it today and then in a year think, "Oh, whatever happened to that story?" Um, and the other thing I would say is don't let your story that you are obsessing over right now be the only thing in your life. That, uh, you know, I have, I have spent probably a good year of my 15 years as, uh, a submitting working writer, obsessing over stories and tinkering on stories and worrying about stories that I could have spent just pouring that energy into something new. And it doesn't have to be a story. It doesn't have to be writing. Just something. It's not healthy to think about writing every day of your life. It's not healthy to think about any single thing every day of your life to the point that it upsets you. Kaelyn (00:52:46):Yeah. Rekka (00:52:47):And yeah, once you start submitting the story, as you are putting yourself in that position where you're more likely to be upset than not because there are, um, I looked yesterday, so this might not be up to date, but on the Submission Grinder, um, which is run by Diabolical Plots, uh, of markets that were either open or only temporarily closed, uh, there were 590. So you could put yourself through an awful lot of rejections with a single story and it not having anything to do with it being a bad story, but just, you know, the market submitted to wasn't right for it. There were too many great stories that, you know, submissions period. There were, um, you know, other people with the same topic, you know, and they had to pick one or they decided there was an anthology call because too many people sent them the same kind of story and then they didn't take any of them. Yeah. Because they thought someone else would too. Rekka (00:53:44):So, you know, there are lots of reasons that have nothing to do with that validation that you want, um, that your story might get rejected. And then there are also lots and lots of markets where if you just kind of get it in your head that this story might get shot out in 500 different directions, you can go back to your life and forget that you have a story in submission until you hear back about it. Um, which is why I try to always log my submissions in the Submissions Grinder. So I remember if I have a story out right now. Because I really try to put it out of my head until I get some sort of letter one way or the other, um, which I definitely recommend. Just like Hilary said, it's like have something else that you're really focused on. Don't be focused on "What's the story doing? What are people thinking about it? Um, will it be rejected? Does this editor hate?" It is, it is. There's a thing called rejectomancy that people attempt to try and divine what is happening with the stories at markets and how that market is moving through their slush pile and whether all the stories that are still out are, are now second tier or third tier— Hilary (00:54:53):Rekka, I'm on this call, you don't have to say "someone." Rekka (00:54:59):I was trying to make you sound bigger, you know? Um, and this is, you know, this is a thing that people do and it can be fun. And then suddenly you're reloading the submissions grinder three times a day on the single market and you were going to write, but that twenty-five minute timer you set for your writing sprint goes off and all you've done is stared at markets and what they're doing and tried to imagine your way into their brains. And it's not going to happen because you're also dealing with slush readers, plus editors, plus, you know, exhaustion. If somebody doesn't read your submission for three weeks, it's not because they're busy necessarily. They might just be coping. Um, so yeah, the, the idea of thinking too hard about what's out there in the world is, is a good point. Like don't, don't stress about it. Hilary (00:55:45):Uh, the other thing, and you know, this is, this is something I harp on a lot, uh, on my show and basically to everybody, is like trunking a story isn't the end of the world. And even just a single rejection, isn't the end of the world. And it, and that's, I won't say that you necessarily get hardened to it because I still get rejections that hurt sometimes. But you, the more rejections you have, the less precious any of them feel. Kaelyn (00:56:21):Yeah. Yeah. Rekka (00:56:24):Absolutely. Hilary (00:56:24):You know, just send the story back out if you're not sure if you want to trunk it yet, send it sent out again. Kaelyn (00:56:31):I was actually going to say exactly something along those lines, which you know, is to kind of, you know, round out our thoughts here is that there is nothing wrong with trunking, a story. You know, we were joking at the top of this, about quitting. It's not really, like, we shouldn't say quitting, it's not quitting. It's recognizing limitations and recognizing, you know, what you know is best spent with your time and energy. There's nothing wrong with walking away from something and saying, "I did as much as I could with this. I'm proud of what I did, but this was all I could do." Um, I think that there's, I don't want to call it a stigma, but like a sense of self-defeat where when you trunk something, especially if it is something that you put a lot of time and effort into and having to put it down and say, "all right, this just isn't going to work." Um, it's, it's definitely, uh, a moment in your life. Um, but I think a lot of people get scared by that because it feels like quitting. It feels like" I did everything I was supposed to in this still didn't work out. I'm a failure. What am I doing with myself? What am I doing with my life?" And it's not that. It's, it actually displays a really good sense of self-awareness and realism. Rekka (00:57:54):And maybe self-preservation. Like we were saying. Kaelyn (00:57:57):Self-preservation. Yeah, exactly. So. Rekka (00:57:59):And we, we haven't really pointed out how much harder it is to do it with a novel because of how many more words are in there. And then in theory, how much more time and your, you know, everything, and then you told people you were writing a novel and they are like, "so how's that novel coming?" And you're like, "Oh, I gave up on it." Like, that's not the answer you want to give anyone. Um, of course, if you didn't tell them too much about the novel, you can just say, "Oh, it's coming along great." Cause you're talking about like three novels from the one that you last referred to. But yeah, I mean, this is easier to practice on a short story level. Um, and then maybe you can grow those callouses you need for querying a novelty agents. And then if you get an agent, hooray, but now you have to put the book on submission. So now it just starts all over again. You just have someone else who cries with you. Kaelyn (00:58:46):It's important. To have someone else to cry with you. Rekka (00:58:49):Yeah. Practice having your rejections and, um, eating them too. And then, you know, don't stop writing. Like don't, don't look to the external validation. If writing is the part you love, like if you get in the habit of submitting stories, because that's what everyone does rather than like, my favorite part of the writing process is a submission. Is writing that cover letter, like then go for it. But I mean like— Kaelyn (00:59:15):Also if you've ever encountered one of those people run away. Yeah. Rekka (00:59:19):Short story cover letters are not that bad. Hilary (00:59:20):Short story cover letters are, are two sentences and you're out of there. Rekka (00:59:25):And they get copy pasted from my spreadsheet. Yeah. They, um, they are so much better than query letters. Kaelyn (00:59:31):Look I'm just saying, anybody who's like "my favorite part of this is submissions." That's not, that's not a human, that's an alien here trying to find ways to infiltrate our society. And they're not doing a very good job. Rekka (00:59:45):I mean, Submission Grinder does make it kind of fun, but yeah, not— Kaelyn (00:59:49):You're making me suspicious of you Rekka. Rekka (00:59:51):You should've been suspicious of me for a long, long time now. Kaelyn (00:59:53):Okay. More suspicious. Rekka (00:59:54):Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, I just, I just wanted to point out that we hadn't really talked about like doing this with 200,000 words versus, you know, 2000 words, but, um, the feeling of a sunk cost or whatever, uh, it doesn't really go with writing because, you know, like if you were going to sit down and become a concert pianist, you would not sit down and attempt a concert on your first try. You would practice. And writers, I think, have this imagination, uh, have this vision that you write down— or you sit down and you write the Great American Novel, because that's the way we hear everybody doing it. Um, nobody talks about the 36 drafts that they threw out. I mean, now, now we do cause we have Twitter, but like, you know, like the, the fallacy of, you know, sitting down doing it perfectly the first time and then becoming famous and retiring and just like maybe writing two more books before you die and three are maybe found and released posthumously, like— Kaelyn (01:00:57):Yeah, I think we've got this thing in our head where we read and we enjoy reading and maybe we enjoy talking about reading. So we don't understand that you don't just sit down and churn out something perfect. To kind of, you know, finish up our thoughts here. Don't think of trunking a story as time that you wasted. Think of it as practice. Think of it as, you know, like Rekka said with the concert pianist,, you're not sitting down and performing a concert. There is a lot of time that went into this. The reason I think that we get a lot really hung up with writing is because, you know, somebody who's practicing the piano at the end of the day, they don't really have anything physical to show you that they did. With writing, there is something that exists. You have produced something that, you know, is tangible in the sense that you can show it to other people. Um, and that makes it harder to walk away from. You know, anytime you're making something, you know, like, um, a painting or, you know, you're into woodworking or some, you know, gardening, something, and you have to walk away from it that makes it so much harder to do. Rekka (01:02:13):And also the mistakes when you practice piano are ephemeral and they just sit here. Whereas when you stare at something that isn't quite working, that has become a physical product, there's, there's a lot of, uh, self reckoning all the time forever. Hilary (01:02:29):Yeah. Kaelyn (01:02:30):So Hilary, to, to kind of, you know, close us out here. Do you have a good, um, do you have a good trunk story to tell us? Either yourself or, you know, maybe one of your favorite stories from your podcast? Hilary (01:02:44):Yes. So, uh, I alluded to this story before, but it's, uh, it's not a story I will ever tire of telling, which is the very first story that I ever tried to sell. Uh, the first place I sent it to was Weird Tales Magazine. Uh, this was back in 2005, uh, where the head editor was George Scithers. Uh, and the thing about sending it to Weird Tales. I had that magazine in my head as this is, you know, "this is a place where you send stories and they get published. And like you get noticed by doing that." But George was a family friend for about half of my life. At that point, he had lived about six blocks away from the house I grew up in and my dad had worked for him on and off for years. And when I was a wee small lad would just like, take me over there, talk with George for a while, George would call me a little sprout, and then we would leave. So when I sent this story to Weird Tales, I didn't get a form rejection. I didn't get a personal rejection in the mail. George called my house, not even the phone number I had listed on the top of my manuscript— Rekka (01:04:25):Oh my god. Hilary (01:04:25):—which was my cell phone. He called my actual house, talked to my dad for half an hour. Kaelyn (01:04:31):Oh my god! Hilary (01:04:31):—and then said, "Can you put your boy on?" Rekka (01:04:34):Oh no. Hilary (01:04:35):And told me everything that was wrong with the story and then said, "But it's a damn good story, revise it and send it back to me." Rekka (01:04:47):Oh, your first submission was a revise and resubmit, but prolly didn't feel like it. Kaelyn (01:04:52):No, it felt like somebody called, spoke to your father for half an hour, Rekka (01:04:56):Like the principle. Hilary (01:04:56):Yeah. Rekka (01:04:56):—and then was, as an afterthought, "Oh right. Your kid. I have to tell him everything wrong with what he just did." Hilary (01:05:02):Yep. Uh, so I revised and I resubmitted and he sent back a fully, my same manuscript, fully marked up with all the things that were wrong with it. Rekka (01:05:16):Still wrong with it. Hilary (01:05:17):Yeah. Uh, because I was an 18 year old boy-shaped person who didn't know any genre conventions of Urban Fantasy. And so, and then I submitted that story again. Uh, and in the time between, when I had gotten the second draft of it back from George and when I got it back out to them, the publisher had a big shakeup and restructured the whole organization. Uh, so by the time my manuscript arrived with them again, uh, it was Jeff and Ann VanderMeer heading up Weird Tales and, Rekka (01:06:08):And they didn't call to speak with your father that time. Hilary (01:06:11):Yeah. They were not having this story. I think I submitted, I went through two or three other rounds of rejections because I was 18 and didn't have Twitter because Twitter wasn't a thing yet for another year. And certainly wasn't a thing writers did. Uh, so I didn't have anybody to tell me you don't revise and resubmit the story to every magazine. So Gordon van Gelder or one of his slush readers had that story go across his physical mailbox three or four times at F&SF. And, uh, then I left for college and stuck that story in the trunk. Rekka (01:06:57):That's an outstanding story. That is probably very similar to what I would have done if I had managed to finish, uh, the first novel that I ever wrote, which I did not know was fanfic, because I did not have very good internet access at the time. I could not run Netscape and AOL on my computer at the same time. Hilary (01:07:18):Oh yep, mood. Rekka (01:07:18):So had not broadened my horizons very much. And I wrote a Next Generation book because I read all these Pocket books. And I thought, what you did was you wrote the story and you submitted it and then they would pick it and print it if they liked it. So I was getting ready. You know, I was, I was writing my, my novel. I was about a quarter of the way through it. Um, when I made the mistake of showing it to a teacher who was also a Star Trek fan, and I was showing it to him as a fellow Star Trek fan, and then he gave it back to me covered in red pen mar

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Transcript (All Mistakes are Fully Rekka's Fault)   Rekka (00:00:00):Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R J Theodore. Kaelyn (00:00:09):And I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And, uh, this is Anthologies, part two. Rekka (00:00:15):Part two, because Kaelyn was like, "Hey, you left me out. I am not gonna forgive you for this. We're going to talk about this until I have gotten to say everything I want to say about it." Kaelyn (00:00:25):I was unfairly confined somewhere and, uh, I, I missed, uh, I missed the interview last week, obviously, but, um, you know, I, I, we wanted to talk more, a little bit more about anthologies, you know, obviously, um, Rekka's interview with Julia was fantastic. A lot of great insight and information in there. Um, but that was very, you know, from the publishing side of things. So then there's the people that actually contribute to the anthologies, the writers. That's, that's a whole other kettle of fish. So we just, you know, we wanted to do another part where we talked a little bit about the other side of this. Rekka (00:01:04):Kaelyn's interest is a kind of pre-submission I would say, right? Kaelyn (00:01:08):Yes, definitely. Rekka (00:01:08):Although you have worked on an anthology, so your interest has also been post submission. Kaelyn (00:01:14):I have, uh, I have worked on an anthology. We talk a little bit about that in this episode. Um, anthology is our, you know, as the last week's episode went into great detail about very different from a novel, you know, I think we think like, Oh, whatever, it's a book. So you've got a whole bunch of authors instead of just one. Rekka (00:01:32):A WHOLE bunch of authors. Kaelyn (00:01:33):Yeah. A flock, if you will. Rekka (00:01:35):A slack of authors? Kaelyn (00:01:37):A slack of authors. Um, so you know, like, what's the difference? Why is, why is it a big deal? Anthologies are very different and they're, um, you know, even if they work out to about the same number of words and pages as a novel, I would say it's two to three times the amount of work. Rekka (00:01:57):At least. The process of editing is basically multiplied by however many authors you have on the book, because you've got to do all the direct contact things with each of them. And even though the story may only be a few thousand words, there is an entire process that has to happen for each submission. Kaelyn (00:02:14):Yeah. Rekka (00:02:14):So, so that's fun. So that was Kaelyn's favorite part of working on an apology. I'm sure. Kaelyn (00:02:20):Oh God. Rekka (00:02:21):Doing this all simultaneously with however many authors. Kaelyn (00:02:24):Yeah, yeah. It's um, it's, you know, it's different and there are certain things as a writer, if you're preparing or interested in submitting to an anthology that you should be aware of, um, you know, going into it. So, you know, that's what we wanted to take some time to talk about today. And, uh, that's what we did. Rekka (00:02:41):This is the bandaid that Kaelyn is slapping over my, my poor attempt to lead the podcast without her. Kaelyn (00:02:47):Oh no, don't be ridiculous. You did a fantastic job. Like it's to the point that I was like, I'm listening to it. I'm like, "God, I'm so mad. I missed this conversation. They had so much fun. It was awesome." So, um, but you know, we'll, we'll do something again sometime, maybe with Julia. Rekka (00:03:03):We can always talk to them about the experience of putting out 12 issues of a single themed anthology. Because Kickstarter funded the hell out of itself and it's happening. I knew it, I knew it was going to happen and I'm happy to say it did. So, um, look forward to mermaids all 2021. Kaelyn (00:03:20):Yeah. And maybe, you know, in a few months we'll check in with whatever is left of Julia and see how they're doing. Rekka (00:03:28):Yes, exactly. All right. So, um, after the music comes our conversation. Um, Kaelyn's getting the last word in on anthologies. Kaelyn (00:03:50):You know what I just realized Rekka, have we mentioned your new puppy on the podcast yet? Rekka (00:03:54):No, we have not. Because we skipped, uh, we skipped an episode and before that, like she was so new that she couldn't be out here while I was recording. Not that she's out here now, but she probably could be out here. She would just be bouncing a ball in the background. And you'd hear her nails skittering on the floor. Kaelyn (00:04:10):Aww. Yeah, Rekka I got a new puppy. Her name's Evie and she's freaking adorable. Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:04:15):She's so good. She's really smart. It's like, she's gonna probably get us in trouble someday. Kaelyn (00:04:21):Aw, well, anyway, she's adorable. And although she is uh slightly bitey, but you know. Speaker 3 (00:04:27):Little nippy. She's got these, um, her baby canine is still like stuck in there and the adult canine is coming in around it. And I can't imagine how, how much that bothers her right now, you know? Kaelyn (00:04:43):Aww, poor thing. Rekka (00:04:43):So I have sympathy for her and I look forward to the day that it's done. I keep checking her mouth every morning, going, you still have that tooth. Damn it, you still have that tooth! Kaelyn (00:04:51):Now, if it falls out, does the tooth fairy come to Evie? Rekka (00:04:54):Uh, so far, no, we've we found like four or five of the teeth. And, um, we have not given her anything special except you know, like some congratulations. Kaelyn (00:05:05):Some belly rubs. Rekka (00:05:06):Oh yeah. She gets those. She gets those for no reason. She, um, she's not like food motivated. I'm sure she could be. But when we got her, she had no expectation of treats or anything like that. So we were like, All right, cool, we're not encouraging that then. Kaelyn (00:05:19):Okay. Um, I'm very treat incentive-based as well. Rekka (00:05:24):Treat incentivized? Kaelyn (00:05:25):Yeah. Yeah. Rekka (00:05:26):I'm coffee motivated. Kaelyn (00:05:28):Um, I get myself through my day by saying, "okay, if you do all of these things, then you remember that cookie, you were saving? You can go have that cookie." Rekka (00:05:37):Oh, well that presupposes you save the cookie. Kaelyn (00:05:42):I am good at that. Rekka (00:05:43):I am not good at that. So that is why I am not treat motivated because there are none. I already ate them. Kaelyn (00:05:50):I, um, I am one of those people that like, will, you know, somebody will get me like a nice box of chocolates or something. And like, I won't open them forever. I'll like save them and save them. And then it's kind of like, "okay, I need to eat these now because they're getting to the point that I'm going to need to eat them or get rid of them." Um, but you know, I, I'm very, I'm very treat motivated. Um, anyway, so Rekka I'm back this week. Rekka (00:06:18):Yeah. Where the heck were you? You just abandoned me. Kaelyn (00:06:22):I was in the hospital. It was not fun. It was, um, it was a weird experience, which I don't need to tell you about. Um, but yeah, I, I missed the conversation about anthologies last week, which you know, I was very disappointed. I was looking forward to it. So I told Rekka, well, we're going to ha I get to have an anthology conversation too. So I'm going to, we're going to do the whole thing all over again. Speaker 3 (00:06:45):We're just going to pretend that Julia's answers are, you know, falling in and we're just going to record it so that Katelyn feels included. Right? I mean, that's, that's basically, cause I nailed it, right. Like as the standalone, like left in charge of the house. Okay. Kaelyn (00:07:00):No, you absolutely nailed it, but that doesn't matter because this is all about me. No. Um, we, uh— Rekka (00:07:06):No, but what it is all about though, is that Mermaids Monthly funded. So. Kaelyn (00:07:10):Mermaids Monthly did fund! Rekka (00:07:10):As we record it just funded overnight and we are incredibly happy to see that. So I'm looking forward to that. And I think it's telling that I had a sudden idea for a story to submit to it last night as I was getting ready for bed, that must've been the moment it funded. Cause I was just like, it just came to me. Kaelyn (00:07:27):The universe, just snapped it into your head and was like, "Rekka, write this..." Rekka (00:07:31):It was, it was waiting in its little seafoam bubble for me. And, um, the bubble popped as soon as the Kickstarter made it. Kaelyn (00:07:38):I really am disappointed. I wasn't able to make the, the interview episode. Um, it's fantastic if you haven't listened to it, absolutely go back and, uh, and listen to it. But yes, mermaids monthly has, has funded in that time. So any of our listeners that contributed thank you or we're happy that that got funded. It sounds really cool. Um, but you know, we, when we kind of talked about anthologies, I had like two areas that we wanted to cover. One was, you know, what Rekka and Julia were talking about last week, you know, the production side of an anthology, the editing, the story selection, et cetera. But you know, this is a podcast, not just about that side of things, but about the writing side of things. Rekka (00:08:19):And sometimes we do things out of order. Kaelyn (00:08:20):Sometimes we do things out of order. Frequently do things out of order. Rekka (00:08:24):That's just so you don't build up any expectations that we have to live up to. Kaelyn (00:08:28):We don't want anyone getting too comfortable here. But yeah, we wanted to just do, you know, a little bit on, uh, writing for an anthology, submitting, what to expect, you know, from the writer side of things. Julie of course had a ton of insight and information and knowledge last week about what's going on behind the scenes there. Um, but actually then, you know, figuring out like, "Hey, these anthology things sound great. Where do I get started?" Along those lines. You know, we kind of wanted to walk a few things on anthologies here from the writer side, what they are, why you should do them, and what to expect. So, um, as always, I like to start with definitions and a little bit of background. So, you know, well, I'm sure most people listening know what an anthology is. An anthology is a collection of work by different authors, writers, or contributors. Kaelyn (00:09:18):Um, anthologies actually date back quite a bit. Um, and they're primary... They were primarily poetry focused. Um, the first anthologies that we kind of accept that existed were in, uh, Japan and they were collections of poetries in like the 13th and 12th century, um, you know, printing and publishing was not really the thing that it is, but you had all of these people writing poetry and wanted to get it into one place. So that's what they did. Um, you know, in modern era, anthologies definitely were very poetry heavy, but then in the, you know— E,specially I will credit science fiction with this, um, short story, science fiction became very popular in the first half of the 1900s. And that was where we saw a lot of anthologies take off with these collections of short stories at that point. And, um, in some cases they were single author, so it wasn't really an anthology so much as a collection of short stories, but then this became more and more commonplace. Um, in some cases the anthologies were highlighted collections from magazines or periodicals where, you know, they took the best of the year or the award winners and put them together in a, in a anthology that was published. And a lot of, uh, magazines and publications still do those today. Rekka (00:10:38):Yep. I think those are some of the most commonly understood examples of anthologies is that you'll get, you know, the 2020 "best of science fiction and fantasy." Kaelyn (00:10:48):But there's more than one way to do an anthology. You know, there's um, what Julia was talking about last week, where it's a project where you're actively gathering contributors and going through a submissions process and putting something together that is specifically for an anthology, and then there's also, you know, "the best of the best for the decade" or, you know, "our top five most read stories" or something like that. Rekka (00:11:09):And we should say just real quick as an aside, those Best Ofs are according to whoever put that anthology together. They're generally the stories that were most well-read and most, uh, discussed. Kaelyn (00:11:22):Yeah. And something that you see now more and more, especially in this time of, um, you know, online publications and periodicals is, and it follows the collection of, you know, whoever is editing or curating this, maybe it was, you know, the stories that got the most views or the most talked about or whatever, and then they'll select those and publish them because, hey, people still like actual physical books. Rekka (00:11:46):We sure do. Kaelyn (00:11:47):Yep. So, but you know, it could be any, it could be an ereader version as well. You know, just going into this with the understanding of there's, there's multiple ways that anthologies appear and that content is collected for them. Um, we are primarily going to be talking about anthologies that you are specifically submitting for where there's a call for an anthology rather than "I'm gathering these things that were already published and publishing them in an anthology." Rekka (00:12:19):Hey, Parvus has done one of these. Kaelyn (00:12:20):We have, um, it was, uh, I can tell you it was an experience. So trust me, we will be, uh, I will be referencing through the, through the course of this, but, um, so, you know, let's get started with like, why are anthologies good? Why is this something that you should, you know, take the time and effort? Because let's be clear, this is a short story. And it may even be shorter than your average short story submission, but sometimes that makes it more work. Rekka (00:12:49):So you mean in terms of, um, why write for an anthology? Kaelyn (00:12:53):Yeah. Why is this something that the either average or aspiring author should be interested in participating in? Rekka (00:13:01):Um, well, why you would want to have a short story published is maybe different from why you would pick an anthology to write for exactly. Um, why you want to publish a short story is honestly, to get more of your brain juice out there. Like, you know, have more for readers, um, take a break from, you know, maybe your ultra serious Epic fantasy novel and write a really wacky little short story kind of thing. Um, I've heard recently an episode of Writing Excuses where they also said that, um, I think it was Mary Robinette Kowal who said that she discovered that she liked writing science fiction because she just sort of accidentally wrote a couple science fiction short stories, and thought that she was, you know, a fantasy and historical fantasy writer. And then somebody told her like, "you know you're good at science fiction, right? You should write more of this." Turns out that was a good choice. Kaelyn (00:14:08):Yes. Yeah. She, uh, she's won approximately all of the awards, various things since then. Rekka (00:14:16):Um, the, the idea being that you can experiment more without committing to a hundred thousand words of a novel. And when you write more and you, and you complete stories— like it's not just all the words you write that make you a better writer. It's also the story arcs that you complete the character development that you work through, the editing processes that you learn your tricks for. And this sort of lets you do that on a micro scale so that you can, you know, work those muscles with smaller reps, as opposed to, you know, having to do 20 Epic Novels before you feel like you've finally figured out your process. Kaelyn (00:15:00):Yeah. Also within that, it's giving you the ability to hone your craft. Um, what is particularly nice about an anthology and I'm gonna, I'm going to use this word. I know this is a cliched word, but I swear to God, this has layers. What is, you're getting out of an anthology from several different levels is exposure. I know. I know. Rekka (00:15:24):Oh, you said the word. Oh, I have to mute myself so I can just gag for a little bit. Kaelyn (00:15:32):So, but I'm going to use the word "exposure" in several different contexts here. Rekka (00:15:36):You better explain this. Kaelyn (00:15:37):One of the most important forms of exposure you are getting is to other writers and editors. You are getting exposure to a process of how this works on a smaller scale that is not just a novel. Um, when writing for an anthology, assuming you've been accepted, they don't just take your story and that's it. You're going to work with an editor. Um, you know, the degree and extent to which you are going to work with an editor, probably, you know, your mileage may vary, but you're absolutely going to. You're not doing this in a bubble. You're going to be interacting with other authors. You're going to have to talk with various types of editors. You know, all of the various editors we've talked about through the process here, the, you know, your, um, regular, you know, developmental and story editor, you're going to have to do line edits. Kaelyn (00:16:25):You're going to have to work with copy edits. Um, you are, depending on, you know, the involvement here and stuff you may have to review layouts. Um, especially if, you know, you've got some type of graphical intricacies going on there. Um, so this is exposing you to the publishing process on, I don't want to call it a micro scale, but in a more manageable, not as overwhelming way as it would be if maybe you were just writing to it for a novel for the first time. What is also really great about this is you are one part of a larger project. So there's a whole team of people that you're working with here that are all doing the same thing. Um, you know, it's not— You have a group of people on the publishing side that are not responsible just to you. They're responsible to everyone that is working on this. Kaelyn (00:17:18):So that means that you're probably going to be exposed to multiple people in each of those roles. And this is great because the other kind of exposure that's great here is networking exposure. You're going to meet so many people in just the course of having to do this. Um, like I said, editors, other authors, people who do, you know, probably marketing and, um, you know, publishing rights and that kind of stuff for, for this anthology. Um, it's a really great experience to—and a really great way to frankly—meet a lot of people quickly that are all interested in, in doing the same things you are. Rekka (00:18:02):That's assuming that you're not working with an anthology call that's a one-person shop. Kaelyn (00:18:08):Yes, yes. That is, that is true. We're, we're assuming a something more like even a Mermaid's Monthly where, you know, there's, there's multiple people involved in this. Um, the last layer of exposure that I'm going to expound upon here is the dirty one is the, "you're doing this for the exposure." Hopefully you're—. Rekka (00:18:27):No you're not. Get paid. Kaelyn (00:18:28):Yeah, get paid. And we're going to talk about that later. Um, but that said, the exposure is very good for this kind of thing. Um, a lot of anthologies have like cornerstone or like anchor authors and contributors that tend to be big names. If you're not a big name, having some of your work published in the same book that theirs is, that's certainly not a bad thing. Yeah. Rekka (00:18:50):Uh, there was an anthology call that, um, I wrote a story for, I already had the idea for the story. It was definitely shoehorned into their call. Um, Kaylin, you've read this one. And, uh, Kaelyn (00:19:05):Oh that one. Yes. I have read that one. Rekka (00:19:05):And so it was shoehorned into their call. So I was not surprised that it didn't make it in, but, uh, someone who's in my writing group that did make it in found out that his story was directly before a Turtledove story. So he was absolutely thrilled. So that's, you know, that's an exposure that you can't complain about. But also, he got paid, not pro rates, but he still got paid and the rights weren't, I assume over-reaching that's again, more we're going to get into. Kaelyn (00:19:36):Yeah. So when I say, you know, you're doing this for exposure, there's exposure to all different things, but let's, I know it's cliched. I know it's not a thing we like to say, but anthologies are a great way to get extra eyes on your work. Especially if they come attached to other things that maybe, you know, it's like a more well-known or prolific author at that point, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to do whatever you can to boost your visibility and getting into an anthology, especially if it's an author that you like and admire, and you want— I mean, how great does that feel to have your work showcased alongside somebody that you enjoy? Rekka (00:20:14):Or somebody that everyone knows their name or somebody that is going to sell the books because their name's on the cover. Kaelyn (00:20:19):Exactly. Yeah. Um, so then, you know, you're building up your writing, quote-unquote, resume. Your bibliography, but it is also, you know, there's a little bit of legitimacy that goes along with it because you went through an anthology process and it is not an easy thing to do. Um, the submissions alone can be very jarring, but, you know, then for all of the reasons I talked about with like the exposure to the different groups and because this is a large group, it can be a lot to manage. So, um... So it's, you know, getting published successfully in anthology is definitely a nice little thing to be able to tack on to, uh, your About Me section. Rekka (00:21:04):And check off on your writing career bingo card and that kind of thing. Um, and one other point is that, you know, while you're between novels or your novels are going through their, um, editing process, development process, if you are taking the time to bump stories out there into the world, and you know, there's only so much control you have over whether they're accepted because competition is fierce for these. But if you get in the habit of getting stories published, it's something that you can keep your pulse apparent to the outside world while you're working on bigger projects of your own. Kaelyn (00:21:43):Yep. All right. So all of this sounds great. You're really geared up there. "I want to, I want to go write something and get it published in an anthology." So where the heck do you find these things to submit to? Rekka (00:21:56):Um, One of the things to just do is befriend and network with a lot of other writers on Twitter. Cause a lot of anthology calls make the rounds on Twitter and you'll see them eventually. Um, and frequently if they're being funded through Kickstarter, you'll see them before the window is open so that you're not really scrambling. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:22:20):And that's, it's funny because I that's exactly what I was going to say is Google is your friend here. And so is Kickstarter. Now the thing you have to be careful about with Kickstarter is a lot of times these anthologies are either partially or completely filled out by that point. Rekka (00:22:35):Sometimes yeah. I mean, so when you are browsing Kickstarter for anthology projects, um, hopefully in the project description or in the updates, you will find the information of, um, whether that anthology is going to be opening for submissions. Sometimes they open for submissions if they reach a certain funding goal, which may not be a hundred percent, but it might be the point at which they say, "okay, now we know that we're going to move ahead enough that we're going to put out a call for people to consider submitting." Or "our stretch goal, you know, of an extra $2,000 is going to let us buy extra words and therefore extra stories." Kaelyn (00:23:15):Yeah. So, um, social media, huge. Kickstarter's definitely a good place to, you know, just look around, get some ideas. Rekka (00:23:27):Yeah Kickstarter is big about promoting anthology stories now. So it's a good place to browse and find some, and, you know, back some. If you're going to submit, I really recommend you back the, the anthology, it's not about payments. "It's going to come out of my payment or whatever." It's like, you're not even sure that you're going to be accepted, but you know, back a project you'd be excited enough about to appear in. That's just good business, that's networking positively. Kaelyn (00:23:52):So that's definitely networking as well. Along those lines, Rekka, you know, as you said, a project, you'd be excited to be in. Um, here's, here's the thing with a lot of anthologies is especially the ones where, you know, there's an open submissions process and they're gathering contributors a lot of times they're themed. Rekka (00:24:12):Right? And sometimes the theme is very specific, like "mermaids," other times the theme is more like "hope" or a certain demographic of people. Kaelyn (00:24:21):Yes. That's a good transition into, "okay, what do I submit to this? Should I take something that I already wrote that I really liked and try to fit it into this? Or do I, do I need to write something new for this?" My inclination is always try to write something new. Rekka (00:24:39):It's a good exercise at the very least. Kaelyn (00:24:41):If you just so happen upon an anthology, looking for contributors that you already have the perfect story written for. Well, then you were just very lucky and please, by all means, you know, submit your little heart out. Rekka (00:24:54):You might get some excitement about a theme topic that results in more anthologies being made on that topic. Something that, you know, people were begging for for years, and then somebody finally makes it, and then it's extremely successful, then someone else is going to be eyeballing that same theme going, "I know there are more stories here. If I give it some breathing room, you know, I could do this anthology too or very similar one." And then if you were in the pile of near misses from the first time, then, um, you know, you might find a new place for that story, but generally you've also grown maybe by a year or so. You might want to write a new one anyway. Kaelyn (00:25:36):Yeah. And so, I mean, this is good practice for short stories in general, but, you know, especially for anthologies is write to what they are asking for. Pay attention to the submissions. You know, Julia talked about this a lot in last week—or two weeks ago's episode, um, you know, and in their case, it's mermaids. If their story does not have, or is not about mermaids, then this was not going to be something that they were interested in. Um, anthologies, you know, as they are getting more and more, you know, we, we see a lot of, especially Kickstarter-funded, uh, anthologies that are very specific. And that's great because you get a whole collection of stories about one thing that everyone loves. Um, but trying to shoe horn pieces in it, especially if it's some, you know, a larger short story, slightly longer one, it's not, you know, it's not going to go well, and it's going to annoy people handling the submissions. Um, just blatantly—you know, same practice with, you know, submitting short stories to magazines and various other publications—just blatantly sending, you know, the same thing out to everybody with a little explanation that changes slightly, depending on the publication of what they're looking for, of why this is good for it is not going to, to help you here. Kaelyn (00:27:02):If you are serious about trying to get your work in an anthology, identify the anthology that you want to submit to, and then write a piece specifically for that. Rekka (00:27:13):While, at the same time, you know, Julia's advice to write a piece that's unique to you and tells your very specific angle on things. Not write exactly the correct trope filled thing that will, that someone could look at and go, "there is no way you could reject this story. It hits every button." No they could still reject it. It might be boring as heck. Kaelyn (00:27:37):Yeah. Don't, you know, don't write to requirements, but also, you know, be aware of what those requirements are and find the story, maybe the mermaid story that lives in your heart and put it on paper and send it out into the world to get published. Um, it's, it's a f— it's a weird, fine line to walk, but it is important to write well and passionately about something. If you're writing stories for anthology consideration, and you just don't really care about it, that's probably not an anthology you should be submitting to. Rekka (00:28:11):I would say that, like the story that we mentioned earlier that you've read: that was not the right story for that anthology. And I kind of knew it, but. Kaelyn (00:28:18):It was a good story though. Rekka (00:28:19):It was also like a lot of fun to write and I was backing that anthology. So I was kinda like, "yeah, I'll just toss it in there." And I don't regret it. Kaelyn (00:28:30):Nope. But you know, along those lines, um, be aware, you know, if— Julia talked a lot about this, so I won't go through too much of what a slush pile is and how this works for anthologies, but— be aware that this is a thing that is happening. If somebody opens your story and is just like "this isn't even close to what I'm looking for." If they make it past the first page, I'd be shocked. Rekka (00:28:55):Well, yeah, it's hard to say. Kaelyn (00:28:57):Yeah, it depends on how long it takes them to realize that you did not read the instructions Rekka (00:29:02):Or that you chose to disregard them. Exactly. Yeah. The guidelines are very important. They're there for a reason. And if you don't have a story that fits them and you don't want to write one, then move on to another anthology and see if you got something better for that. Kaelyn (00:29:15):And look, it's not, every anthology is going to, you know, be for you. Maybe you don't particularly like mermaids, you know, then maybe don't like write for a mermaid based anthology? You know, these anthologies get so many submissions and a good portion of them are going to be people that are just throwing mud at various walls to see what sticks, what they can get through. So some care and attention, and some indication that you are very interested in this and that you wrote something, or you had something that you think is specific and very special for this, will go a long way. Rekka (00:29:52):But yeah, I mean, in terms of writing for an anthology, the thing that I feel like people need to keep in mind is that these anthology calls never pop up when you have a spare minute. Oh no, of course. So you're going to see an anthology call and go, "I was going to revise my novel that month. And now, now we don't have, like, I can't, I must, I want to write for this." So like when an anthology call pops up and you cannot resist stealing time away from a project you were already like really committed to, that might be the anthology call that is right for you. Kaelyn (00:30:26):There is no time of year that is the anthology heavy time of year. There isn't a publishing cycle necessarily for, um, anthologies that are specifically looking for contributors. There is a time of year that anthologies will come out, but they are, you know, those Best Of kind of anthologies. Rekka (00:30:45):Right, and those are reprints. So it's not like that's work for the person who's appearing in them anyway, it's it's proofing, but that's about it. It's already been printed once, the editing's been done. They're not going to change the words if they're proving that it's a Best Of. Kaelyn (00:30:57):Yeah. I would love to tell you, like, "yes, be prepared because April may every year, this is when you start seeing all the calls for anthology contribution." That's not a thing. Rekka (00:31:06):Nope. It's when the anthology editors get all their thoughts together on paper and they come up with that budget plan Julia was talking about, and then they figure out their timing, they plan out their Kickstarter campaign, and who's going to do what and, and get their timeline in order. Then they might announce it. And then, then you hopefully have a little bit of warning, but probably not much, Kaelyn (00:31:29):Probably not too much. Rekka (00:31:30):Probably by the time you've heard of it. You're a few days into that Kickstarter campaign. Kaelyn (00:31:34):If it's something you're interested in, I'm sorry to tell you this. There is no good way to do this, except to do everything that you possibly can to stay on top of this. Rekka (00:31:42):Again, if the anthology called moves you to write something, chances are, you're not going to be able to resist anyway, I would say that's the right anthology call for you. Kaelyn (00:31:52):Rekka, as someone who's had experience doing both of these anthology and magazine and publication submissions, I imagine if you're sitting at home listening to this, it may sound like a lot of the same. Like it might sound like there's overlap here of, well, "what's the difference between submitting to an anthology versus submitting to a magazine that has a, has a call out.?" Rekka (00:32:15):I mean, there's a little bit of overlap in that you have to, you know, have a well-polished story. You have to self-edit, you know, a couple of rounds. You want to really hone that thing as much as you have time to do. Um, if you have a piece that you're just going to shop around to magazines, you have a little bit more time to do that. Um, as we mentioned, the anthology calls, uh, the windows can be a little small, so that's a little bit more pressure to get it through the editing process. Um, but as you know, Julia and I discussed last week, the editors kind of know that too. So you might get a little bit more slack for grammatical issues or, um, a bit of prose that goes awry or something that you would from a magazine. Kaelyn (00:33:01):"Prose that goes awry." Rekka (00:33:01):I think that should be the subtitle of this, uh, this, uh, entire podcast maybe, or my, or just my writing career. Rekka (00:33:09):Um, but, uh, yeah. So when you are submitting to one or the other, the first most important step is to find the guidelines and absolutely adhere to anything that is not being left up to your choice. Because there's a reason for that. And that reason is to minimize the work that's going to be done on the other end. Um, sometimes it's house style things where you see a magazine will tell you, like "we want American English spellings of everything." You know, the guidelines will have some hard specificity to them. In terms of what the story will be. The guidelines for a magazine are probably going to just maybe, um, [coughs and it sounds remarkably like "Clarkesworld'] going to tell you what not to send them. These become pet peeves of the editor, uh, that they pass down to the first readers. So that those become the first readers' pet peeves. Um, and there are certain things that are just not going to make it through. And they'll tell you that. Um, many anthologies will be less specific because of the theme. Like they already told you what the theme is and they want to see what you'll do with it, but they might tell you, for example, we will not accept any stories that, um, you know, highlight violence or, you know, racism or bigotry, things like that. Kaelyn (00:34:40):So. Well, I would say that one of the big differences to understand here is a magazine is an ongoing thing. So be it a, you know, a magazine, a periodical publication of some kind, is ongoing. So, an anthology, conversely, either you're in it, or you're not. Um, a magazine on the other hand, you know, maybe your story wasn't exactly what they were looking for right at that moment, but maybe they'll keep it in their back pocket. Maybe it's, you know, I, I think, and Rekka correct me if I'm wrong, that you have a little bit more flexibility with a magazine to use creative license in there in that maybe this isn't exactly what we need right now, but a few issues from now, this might fit very nicely with a themed issue that we're doing. Versus— Rekka (00:35:30):I think it's very rare that a magazine is going to hold your story for a future thing that they might do. Um, very frequently you are in a submissions period window. You know, the magazine will open for a certain amount of time, every certain timeframe. So for example—you have the entire gamut—uh, Clarkesworld is open all the time. You'll probably get that rejection by the end of the week, Strange Horizons is open for 24 hours once a week, except for certain, like, two weeks a year. Um, other magazines are open for like a quarter and then they close and then they open for another quarter or, you know, a month, every other month, something like that. So if you are interested in submitting for magazines, you really have to be on top of their schedules to know, if there's a magazine you want a piece to go to, when they're going to be open. Rekka (00:36:30):Because the other thing to be tricky about is not to have sent it off to a magazine that has really slow response time that makes you miss that window. Um, so magazines submissions are kind of like a balancing act. You, you want a playbook that you figure out like what your, what your process is for a story. It's very rare that I hear even for, um, a magazine that has themed quarters, for example, like Fireside will do a quarterly, uh, themes. I'm trying to think of another one I know that, I've just seen one recently where they're, um, Zombies Need Brains has a, um, a couple of, uh, when they do their Kickstarter, they announce like four themes. And so if you're submitting, you're not necessarily submitting for the next one that comes out, you're submitting based on the theme that your story is written to. But they might all be reviewed together. And then you don't find out until the beginning of that calendar year, which ones, you know, re going to be accepted. So it's, it's weird. It's tricky. Um— Kaelyn (00:37:38):That should be the tagline for this podcast. Rekka (00:37:41):I guess before we get too much further, I should talk about the Submissions Grinder? Submissions Grinder is a web app that's hosted by Diabolical Plots and, um, they themselves are a magazine. And, um, I believe they're opening soon if they haven't already. Um, but they basically have this tool online that lets everyone aggregate their, uh, submissions information for both anthologies and magazines and even some non-fiction markets. You can run a search for open markets based on your story's criteria. So for example, a 4,100 word, uh, science fiction story, and you can put that you want, you know, pay rate of 6 cents or more per word, and then it'll return all the open markets that meet those qual— You know, that a fiction story of 4,100 words might potentially be published in. And, um, and at the pay rates that you request and you can even sort by pay rate, or you can sort by rejection time, you know, response time, I should say, but let's be real. Rekka (00:38:49):So then you can, you know, log your submissions and Submissions Grinder will kind of keep people apprised of how that magazine is responding to things, the age of, um, stories that are responded to and, provided that everybody submits like keeps up to date on their, um, data entry, then you get some of that rejectomancy juice flowing because people can watch and see, you know, like, "Oh, look, the submissions that were sent in on August 12th are starting to get their responses this week," you know? Um, and so you sort of know of like, "Ooh, I didn't get the response, but everybody else did. Did I make it to another round? You know, like have I, have I made it to the next challenge? You know, the next level of slush." So yeah, that's Submissions Grinder, and it's a great tool. I definitely recommend you keep a backup of your own submissions history, just in case anything ever happened to their server. Kaelyn (00:39:46):With an anthology, you know, where there's a call for contributors, it's very possible. They may even say, "we'll let everyone know by this day." Pretty much. Or, you know, "the first round of rejections is going out this day after that." And by the way, it's very common in this process that an editor is going to want to talk to you beforehand. Um, in very rarely do, unless, you know, you were approached beforehand specifically and asked to write or contribute something to this. Um, very rarely are they just going to send you an email and be like, "Hey, we picked this. Isn't that great." Um, there's always a little bit of a vetting process that goes into this. Rekka (00:40:28):Um, It's a very brief vetting process though, as compared to like having discussions with agents and publishers, uh, it's generally, you know, you get a response that says, "we are interested in purchasing this story," you know, and then you do a little dance and you answer whatever questions they have. It's not, um, it's not hard to find out about a person online these days. So if they're vetting you for your reputation, you've probably laid it all out on Twitter for them already. Um, if they're vetting you for your experience, you know, that might be on your website. Hopefully you have a website, please have a website. Kaelyn (00:41:08):They could be vetting you to see if they're going to be good working with you because that's another thing to note here is, I had mentioned, don't expect that they're not going to want any work on your piece. Because this is an anthology and it's a shorter piece, generally speaking, they're going to be pretty happy with it, but they may want you to do some work. There may be some, I won't say significant, but there could be some sizable edits involved in this. And that's where I'm saying, you know, they're probably going to talk to you, especially if they're like, listen, we really like this story. We need you to tweak it a little bit cause, okay, maybe they want it to fit in better with the theme of the anthology. Maybe there's, you know, something in there that they're like "this just isn't going to sit well with the re with the theme for the, um, you know, the book we're putting out" so they could want to talk to you just to make sure everyone's on the same page and you're not going to stomp your feet and pout and say, "I'm not changing a single word of this." Rekka (00:42:11):Well, you have some editors who will only pick stories that don't need a lot of work because they don't have the time to deal with that. Like I said, you might have a very small team or even a team of one person, and they're not going to pick stories that they're going to have to spend intensive time working on you with. If you were submitting to a magazine and there was something they weren't happy with, chances are, unless it's very minor, you're not going to get an acceptance or even an invitation to discuss possible changes. What's more likely to happen is they'll say "revise this with this feedback and you can resubmit someday and we'd look at it again" because, um, what we haven't really touched on is that if this is one and done, generally, if your story gets rejected, you don't get to send that story back again. Kaelyn (00:42:58):Yes. That's very important to know with anthologies. Rekka (00:43:01):Anthologies and magazines magazines. Don't, you know, they may not have a long memory, but it's very possible. They also do. So you don't know, um, you don't want to take your story that was rejected and just, you know, change the characters' names and flip it back and send it again, you know, in less than six months. It's very likely they'll remember it. Um, and it's very likely it won't get any further than it did the first time, uh, you know, much less. It'll have a much shorter life span if the person who saw it, you know, already knew it was rejected right off the bat. So, um, but with an anthology call, if they do like it, you probably won't get a revise and resubmit, um, suggestion because of the timeframe you're working in. You might get an editor who really likes the story, but wants to know, would you be comfortable making these changes? Rekka (00:43:51):And if so, then they're interested in buying it. Um, and that's going to again, be a quick process. And probably as I said, not a very laborious one. I doubt they're going to want to change the theme of your story. Um, it's going to be more like, um, "this comes off as problematic," or "this is really similar to another story that I'm definitely accepting. Um, if we can tweak this detail out, it may not even be critical to the story then," you know, something like that. But it's, I really don't think you're going to get very deep changes on a call because the competition is so fierce. Now, if you somehow ended up an anthology that nobody heard about and they're grasping for, you know, to fill the word count that they wanted, then that might be a totally different process because they are, you know, a little bit more willing to work with you because they just want to put together a good anthology and they didn't get the raw meat they needed to make a proper meatloaf. Kaelyn (00:44:50):Along those lines Rekka. Uh, you know, we've talked a lot here about anthologies. They're great. They're a lot of fun. They're good for that dreaded word "exposure" and they're good for your career. And they're a good experience that said not all anthologies are created equal. Rekka (00:45:06):Explain, please. Kaelyn (00:45:07):Some are created to screw people over. Rekka (00:45:10):Same with magazines though. Kaelyn (00:45:11):Same with magazines, yes. Rekka (00:45:12):Same with publishers. Kaelyn (00:45:15):Same with publishers. Rekka (00:45:15):There who are ready to screw you over at every, every step of the way. And it really does come down to, um, being savvy, uh, knowing what your value is and, um, standing up for yourself and watching for these red flags. Kaelyn (00:45:30):That said, anthologies are something that I think specifically is very easy to get sucked into and taken advantage of. Um, for all of the reasons that we mentioned before, you know, the, you know, adding this to your, uh, your bibliography, your writing resume, um, you know, the apparent legitimacy that this affords you. A lot of people see this as an easy-in. I want to be clear, first of all, even, you know, any anthology like, especially the legitimate ones, this is not easy. There are, you know, predatory, people and publications out there that know that writers are desperate to just try to get something published and will do things to try to, well, take advantage of them there. So in terms of red flags with anthologies, this one right off the bat should be very obvious if you've ever listened to this podcast: do not pay to be in an anthology. Rekka (00:46:30):Not only that, but do you not pay to have your submission reviewed. Kaelyn (00:46:33):Across the board, do not pay to have your submission reviewed. If you really want somebody to look at your stuff that badly, take that money and go hire an editor. Never pay to have your work featured in an anthology. And this is where that exposure word comes in, where, you know, the people are going, Oh, no, but "you're paying us. But think of all this exposure you're gonna get." Rekka (00:46:50):Remember, they have no content if they don't have writers. So you should be paying them in exposure. Kaelyn (00:46:56):Yes. Um, but along those lines and tied to this, also, is be careful of your rights. Um, a legitimate anthology will have—and by the way, magazine submission, same thing—very clearly upfront, what rights the publisher is maintaining here. Now frequently, this will be something like, um, you know, publishing and electronic rights in US English or Global English or something along those lines. Um, what that means is that if you know, John Favreau picked us up and said, "Hey, this would make a great movie." That means he's still got to get the rights from you, for that movie. Speaker 3 (00:47:37):Right. Anything that's, that's not signed over to the publisher in the contract—and when I say "signed over," um, I'm hoping that you're getting paid and therefore you're selling these to the publisher. You can even request the line that say, "all other rights, not mentioned are, you know, retained by the author." That's never a bad thing to ask for. So whatever is in there is in there and that's the contract and you signed it. And that's why we call them contracts. Kaelyn (00:48:03):There are, there are theologies that are literally just a bright scraps. They are going to get as many short stories as they can publish all of them, maintain the rights, and then if you think there aren't people who work for four or with this group that will just go shop those short stories to anyone. I mean, primarily Hollywood. Rekka (00:48:24):They like short stories. Keep in mind that most of the Stephen King movies, you know, and love were probably short stories at one point. Kaelyn (00:48:31):Yeah. Rekka (00:48:32):So, um, it's, it's a very tidy way for a, for a studio to get a fully realized story that doesn't need a whole lot of editing down. Because that's the thing about short stories, they don't have all those extra moving pieces that Hollywood usually has to strip out when they convert a novel to a screenplay. So when you are selling to an anthology, especially short stories, especially when you are getting pennies per word, you want to make sure that you protect whatever value that the story can be for you otherwise. And, uh, whether that's resell value, which means that, you know, you can sell it as a reprint story and you'll get less, but magazines will buy stories that have already been published, as a reprint. And then, you know, you can just do that as many times, as long as you don't accidentally give up all your rights to that story. And, you know, without an end date, it's usually going to be sometimes it's six months. I mean, it depends how quickly the magazine tends to get its issues out. Sometimes it's six months. I've heard some of them try to go for two years, which is really on the long end of things. Generally, again, they're looking at this in terms of calendar years. So when they put your story out, that issue is quote-unquote, you know, stale in a year. So they're not going to try and hang onto those rights, other than maybe if they do a Best Of, and then it's probably even in there that they'll renegotiate at that point. Kaelyn (00:50:06):Along those lines, you know, of, um, you know, pennies per word, be aware of the comp structure. Good legitimate anthologies will be very upfront about how this works. Typically, very typical of anthologies is you were paid a certain amount upfront based on the number of words. There's a, you know, there's different rates. Um, you know, maybe hopefully you can find one that does the, uh, you know, the SFWA level pro rate. Um, but be very clear about it. Anthologies, typically do not continue to pay you based on the number of copies sold. Rekka (00:50:44):Right? There are no royalties. You're selling flat. Kaelyn (00:50:47):It's too much work for, you know, for these to handle. You are selling a flat rate, they retain certain rights to your story. You maintain the rest of them. Rekka (00:50:57):And again, anthologies make a bit of a splash when they come out, but they're not something like a novel that hits a bestseller list and then, you know, has a long tailwind. Kaelyn (00:51:09):Yeah. And if you're thinking here, "well, that doesn't sound fair. So that means like this anthology is going to make a big splash. And then, you know, the publisher is just going to keep making money, hand over fist, with it forever." Anthologies are so much more expensive than a regular novel. Um, you know, Julia talked about, you know, the, some of the budgetary concerns and everything that goes into this. Anthologies are so expensive. Um, if a publisher, especially a smaller publisher, recovers their cost on it, that is—and that's, by the way, why so many of these are done through Kickstarter because the money upfront required to get an anthology off the ground is staggering. Rekka (00:51:51):And it's probably more than that anthology will ever make just by releasing it in a quiet, traditional manner. Like Kickstarter really helps to get eyes on it. And then it helps to get people to commit to it ahead of time so that it can be funded before it even comes out. And then that might be the end of it. You know, it comes out, people already backed it. So they get their copies, and maybe there's a trickle of sales, but it's not, it's not going to really be something that is making money long-term. So don't resent the publisher for not paying you your royalties each quarter, which would end up being like 0.1 cent. Kaelyn (00:52:30):You're going to make more money off of this, selling it flat than you would in a royalty structure. If somebody is offering you a royalty structure, I would actually go so far as to say, be very dubious of that. Rekka (00:52:41):And worry about them as a human, the amount of energy that they're going to spend on this. Kaelyn (00:52:45):Yeah. Yeah. So, um, one last weird red flag, which I didn't really realize how much of a thing it was until I was doing research on this and actually came across a number of these: do not submit to anthologies that are offering prizes instead of money. Um, I was— Rekka (00:53:06):Hey, well, what if I need a blender? Kaelyn (00:53:09):Get the money from the anthology and go buy the blender. Rekka (00:53:13):And then you get to choose your blender. Kaelyn (00:53:14):Then you get to pick the blender. Um, no, I, I was, I was very surprised by how many anthologies and stories about this I came across where they're like "the prize for getting accepted by this is, you know, a thing like a physical thing, like an iPad, but like an old one that we used to be my daughter's and it's got some crayon on it and we're going to mail it to you." Um, no, but like, there's, there's this weird thing out there, and I'm not sure how much of it is genre versus, you know, other forms of anthologies and non-fiction. Um, but there's this weird thing out there where there are prizes offered instead of like monetary compensation. Um, look if you really want the crayon iPad than sure, go for it, but also avoid those. It's just, um, that's, I can't even call it an anthology. It's more of like a writing contest at that point. And I'm not sure what the prize is other than a weird iPad. Rekka (00:54:14):Yeah. That, that is more of like a County Fair level, you know, competition. Um, you're going to be up against like, if you're in genre, you might be up against memoir, you know, who knows? Kaelyn (00:54:24):Yeah. The one, um, the one other last thing I will say here, I talked kind of at the beginning of this episode about poetry and how that was really sort of the advent of anthologies. If, you know, obviously we talk about fiction. We specifically talk about genre fiction a lot on here. Um, if you are submitting poetry to an anthology—which by the way is very common and I believe like one of the more pervasive forms of anthology out there, um, is poetry—be especially careful with that with rights and everything because, um, I don't think many rights for poetry gets sold to Hollywood, but, um, poetry tends to form in collections, which is, you know, where anthology sort of sprung out from. So, um, if you are submitting poetry through an anthology, just be especially careful about that. Rights seem to be a big issue there. Because, you know, typically when you're submitting a poem, we're not talking about something that's a 20,000 word short story, we're talking about something that's maybe a few hundred words and you get paid differently and structured and everything there. So— Rekka (00:55:34):Yeah, I mean, if you ever wanted to release your own poetry books someday, you just got to make sure that you've got all your rights and if you ever released a themed poetry book, then maybe it does become a movie or a music album. I mean, you just get—make sure that in a year or so after the anthology comes out, you own that story again. Kaelyn (00:55:51):Yeah, exactly. Because poetry is, is weird with this where poetry is very short typically. And, um, it's not the same as, you know, you can just go publish a short story and put it on Amazon. It's very difficult to get people to pay for individual poems on Amazon. So, uh, anthologies are one of the main outlets there. And again, rights are always important. Kaelyn (00:56:16):Um, the last thing just to wrap up here, um, my cautionary stuff is I will—and this is something I actually have experienced in myself—is to be clear about academic versus, um, fiction and nonfiction anthologies. Because anybody who, you know, has come from academia, I'm sure you've had to do writing and research and like it's, you know, a publish-or-perish situation. Um, I've had a couple of things that I submitted to different periodicals and magazines published. Um, in those cases, the power dynamic is a little different here. Kaelyn (00:56:57):Um, you still should not be paying to have things published. That's a big no-no in academia as well, but for different reasons. Um, but the power dynamic is a little different because you are essentially trying to win a contest. You are trying to get your paper to be the most interesting, the most groundbreaking, the most, whatever to get it published. Um, so if you're thinking through this and going, "Oh, hang on a second. I submitted this stuff to this, uh, academic journal and they put me through this ringer," that is very different. That is career oriented. That is a step that depending on, you know, what your field is, you must take at certain points. I mean, if I had stayed an historian, all I'd be doing is trying to publish research papers and, uh, get books written—different kinds of books, obviously. Um, so don't, don't conflate the two it's, um, it's, it's a very different from, from fiction and nonfiction, creative writing versus academic writing. In those sometimes they do give you a prize and that's a big deal. Those are, those are the scenarios in which it's like, "Hey, and the winners getting a $50,000 grant," and then there are grad students killing each other over it. So. Rekka (00:58:12):Don't be those people though. Kaelyn (00:58:14):Yeah. Don't. We don't need any more dead grad students. Rekka (00:58:18):I mean go win the grants, but don't kill anyone to get there. Don't climb over a pile of dead bodies to get your grant. Kaelyn (00:58:24):It's the only way to get grants, Rekka. Rekka (00:58:28):Just picturing like that scene from Terminator. Kaelyn (00:58:30):Yeah. Um, that's what it felt like a lot actually. Um, it was, uh, I, I will tell you, I can't remember if I ever told this story on this, but, um, I had submitted to, um, a publication and the first thing I had to do was get... Like my university was allowed to submit a certain number of papers. So the first thing I had to do was get by like my professor's like review board and it was all supposed to be anonymous. So like I had to print this out, put it in an envelope with like a number on it. And then I was going to get, you know, notes and stuff back from them. I opened one of the envelopes and my 30 pages were in it. They had been torn to confetti. Rekka (00:59:15):Well that's something. Kaelyn (00:59:18):Um, what's really funny is that made it very obvious which professor had done that. But yes, needless to say he did not like it, but it was one of two things that I actually got published. Rekka (00:59:34):Okay, so that's a good point, to bring this back to our topic, is that what one editor hates and despises and shreds to confetti—thankfully we send digital files now and we can still send those to other editors who might also love them. Because let's be clear if you get something published in an magazine or an anthology, the editor loved it. Because the competition is so fierce, it's not just good enough. You didn't slip through the cracks and, you know, sneak by them and get in, you know, without being caught. You were chosen. Your story was chosen and it beat fierce competition to get there. So, um, don't, I, it's hard not to just remember the, the editor who tears it to confetti when you think of that story, but— Kaelyn (01:00:23):Oh, I remember, I remember that professor, he did not like me. Rekka (01:00:27):Well, but who cares? Because it was published and you didn't need him. And that's, that's how you can, you know, think about the editors that don't choose your stories. Once you, once you get to that point where your stories are getting chosen. And, you know, I've heard people call it a numbers game. I've heard people call it like, uh, you know, figuring out where your puzzle piece fits across, you know, a table of 60 or 70 puzzles. Um, but it's, it's a slog and you really, really have to give yourself credit for the successes. Because they don't come as frequently as we might like. Kaelyn (01:01:02):And that said, you know, to kind of wrap us up here, anthologies are great. And there are a lot of fun. And they're a great way to challenge yourself to maybe step out of your writing comfort zone a little bit. Especially if it's something you can get excited about. So... Rekka (01:01:18):Yeah. I, I mean, as a, as a purchaser of anthologies, I love knowing that, like, this is the theme of the whole thing. If I'm into that, this entire book should be pretty much up my alley. Or, you know, sometimes the anthologies are about a movement, and I want to support that movement and I can support that and support individual—like a whole team of individual people while supporting that. Um, and sometimes it's just like, "Oh, that's bizarre. I just want to hear 50 different ways that people will tell that story." So anthologies are super cool for readers, and you get short stories that you can put down and pick it up and leave it, you know, for a couple of months and then come back to it and your bookmark's in there, and you just read the next one. Or you jump around. I mean. Kaelyn (01:02:02):You've got options. Rekka (01:02:02):You've got options. Kaelyn (01:02:03):That's what we're getting at here. More than anything else, you've got options. Rekka (01:02:07):And as a writer who gets placed in an anthology, you get that chance to be discovered by somebody who hadn't heard of you before and picked you up because they like this theme. So another quick point then is if it, if it's a time crunch and if you're not really sure what to write and the, the anthology doesn't even work in your established genre, consider maybe not, you know, spending, putting your time into that. It might not be an investment that ends up being worth it, unless you want to try it. You know, like we said, earlier. Experiment. Yes. But, um, don't try to use anthologies as a gateway for readers to come into your existing library of work if the anthology story is great to end up nothing like the rest of your work. Kaelyn (01:02:55):Is so outside of what you typically write, yeah. Rekka (01:02:57):And again, if you're willing, if you're willing to pivot and make a change of this piece, turns into something big, totally different story. but be aware of that as you pick your anthologies that you want to participate in. And then run a search on, um, the Submissions Grinder, put your ear to the ground on Twitter and, you know, do a browse on Kickstarter and find something, and then try it. And, you know, maybe it takes 20 before you get placed in one, or maybe it's, you know, your first started or second or third one, Kaelyn (01:03:25):If it's something you're on the fence about definitely give it a shot. If nothing else, just see if, you know, just see— Someone's giving you a writing prompt, take that and run with it, see what you can do with it. If you're really like, still not sure. You know, what a great thing to do is pick up an anthology. Rekka (01:03:40):Yes. Definitely read some anthologies before you start submitting to anthologies. Same with magazines. Kaelyn (01:03:45):Use that to sort of figure out the type of anthology and genre that you would like to write to. Kaelyn (01:03:50):Bu

Back the Mermaids Monthly Kickstarter!   We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Julia's Links: Their Website: juliarios.com @omgjulia @mermaidsmonthly Back the Mermaids Monthly Kickstarter!   Episode Transcript (created by Rekka, blame her for any errors) Rekka (00:00:00):Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:00:09):I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:00:13):And this episode is a little light on the Kaelyn this week. Kaelyn (00:00:18):Yeah. we had this this great interview set up with Julia Rios and I missed it because I I ended up in the hospital the day before we were supposed to record the interview and that's Um interviews are a lot of fun, but unfortunately it's different than when it's just Rekka and I recording and she can say, okay, well just do this when you get home. So I I felt bad, I had to, didn't give Rekka that much notice she had to fly solo on this one. Rekka (00:00:47):Yeah, it worked out okay. Julia is a great person. Julia Rios is a queer Latinx writer, editor, podcaster, and narrator whose fiction, non-fiction, and poetry have appeared in Latin American Literature Today, Lightspeed and Goblin Fruit, among other places. Their editing work has won multiple awards, including the Hugo award. Julia is a co-host of This Is Why We're Like This, a podcast about the movies we watch in childhood that shape our lives, for better or for worse. They're also one of several co-hosts for the Skiffy and Fanty Show, a general SF discussion podcast, and they've narrated the stories for Escape Pod, PodCastle, Pseudopod, and Cast of Wonders. And it was the editing work that had us reach out to Julia this time specifically editing anthologies, which Kaelyn brought to me as a concept for an episode. And I was like, "Hey, we can bring someone else on. Cause you said you wanted to do more interviews." Kaelyn (00:01:38):Yeah. And we got this one lined up and then I missed it. Yeah. Rekka (00:01:43):Well at least I had someone to talk to. It could have been a rambly, messy, nothing, if it'd just been me. Kaelyn (00:01:50):Yeah. So anthologies are you know, something that I think a lot of writers see constantly, especially if you're active in social media, there's something that you're just constantly coming across, but they're a different kind of intimidating than a regular novel or short story submission. It's a different process. So I thought doing an episodeum it's actually gonna be two episodes now—on anthologies would be a nice topic to cover. So it was, you know, I, I wasn't on this episode, but I will say it was great that someone could come on and talk to us about this that actually has experience doing this. Rekka (00:02:31):And then I threw Kaelyn the rough cut so she could listen while she was in the hospital to see if she wanted to have another conversation, if I covered everything or—and obviously I failed because we're going to talk about it one more time. Kaelyn (00:02:42):Oh no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about some different some different stuff. I can't, I can't let you have all of the fun with the anthropologies without me, Rekka (00:02:50):Julia. The reason that I reached out to them this time was because, well, I've always wanted to have them on the podcast—cause you know, in your mind, when you have a podcast, there's always a list of people you want to talk to. So this one got me the chance to shoot Julia up to the head of the line because Julia is currently, right this very minute, get excited, running a Kickstarter to support basically a year long anthology. And the anthology is themed entirely around mermaids. And you'll get to hear Julia's explanation of why that happened that way in the episode. So I won't go too far into it. Kaelyn (00:03:27):As if you need an explanation for mermaids. Rekka (00:03:30):Julia provides an excuse to write your mermaid story, the mermaid story of your heart, and then send it to them. So of course, first they need their Kickstarter campaign to be successful. So make sure that while you're listening to this episode, you also go to MermaidsMonthly.com and that will lead you to the Kickstarter page. So you can back that act fast, because. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:03:53):Yeah. I was going to say, when does the Kickstarter end? Rekka (00:03:56):The Kickstarter ends on December 12th. So act fast. You have the rest of the week, if you're listening to this on, you know, the week it comes out. And if you are catching up after the fact, cross your fingers and go check that URL and we'll see, we'll see what happens. Kaelyn (00:04:14):This is actually an excellent reminder for me, because I haven't gone to the Kickstarter yet. So— Rekka (00:04:18):[GASP]. Kaelyn (00:04:18):I know. Rekka (00:04:19):Go to the Kickstarter, Kaelyn! Kaelyn (00:04:22):I was in the hospital! Rekka (00:04:22):What! That's no excuse. You had plenty of free time just sitting in that room by yourself. Kaelyn (00:04:25):Yeah, but, like, you know what hospital wi-fi is like. Rekka (00:04:28):Yeah, I do. Okay. Sorry. So so yes, everyone, including Kaelyn immediately, while you listen to the music. Kaelyn (00:04:35):I'm actually going to just drop off this intro right now, so I can go over there and check out the kickstarter. Rekka (00:04:40):Good. All right. So while we listen to the music, go to MermaidsMonthly.com support this anthology because as you're about to hear it is extremely cool and extremely well-conceived. And it is in the hands of an excellent editor who has put together a team of people that they know can, you know, pull all this off and do it in a really, really cool way. So here comes the music. Here comes Julia Rios, and you are already at Kickstarter. I know it, so good for you back that shit and let's let's see this happen. Rekka (00:05:28):Okay, I am here today with Julia Rios, who is a personal acquaintance of mine. I would go so far as to say friend, and it's good to have you on the podcast, finally. I was searching for an excuse honestly, to invite you on. And then Kaelyn came up with this idea of, "Hey, let's talk about anthologies because they are a beast of their own when it comes to pretty much every aspect of them." So I said, "Hey, speaking of themed collections of writing, you know, I know somebody who might want to talk about that right now." So why don't I have you introduce yourself? You know, we gave your, your formal bio in the intro, but you know, what's, what's on your mind these days and and where is it taking you? Julia Rios (00:06:18):Right. Well, I think so talking about the theme of anthologies, I am a writer, editor, podcaster, and narrator. So I've done lots of different things in different ways. And I have edited anthologies in the past. I edited, Kaleidoscope: Diverse YA Science Fiction and Fantasy Stories. And then I did anthology editing for three different years, best YA volumes. So those were reprint anthologies, which is also yet another different beast than themed anthologies that are original stories. And now I am working on a project called Mermaids Monthly, which is technically a magazine, but it's more of an anthology project in that it's only running for one year and probably there's gonna be a book at the end of it, collecting all the contents. It's very themed. It's not a general call. So it's, it's even more highly themed than for instance, Kaleidoscope Diverse YA. Julia Rios (00:07:11):Cause that was basically any science fiction and fantasy. That was YA as long as the protagonist came from a background that wasn't the default straight, Cis, white, et cetera. I also did edit, I was a guest editor for the Cast of Wonders, which is a podcast, why a magazine sort of thing. But every year they do a banned books week episode, or series of episodes. So it's for the full week. And that's basically an anthology editing gig as well, where you're editing, you're selecting stories based on the theme that are, in the case of the one that I edited, it was censorship turns out the lights, like let's, let's turn the lights on and see what happens. And so it was very much like, "okay, tell me for banned books weeks, what stories you have that are science fiction and fantasy that have to do with censorship and with like subverting censorship." So that's, that's the kind of different areas of, of podcast and magazine and book anthology editing that I have done or that I am currently doing. All of them were different formats because when you're doing it for a book it's different than when you're doing it for audio and it's different than when you're doing it for something that's going to be serialized. Rekka (00:08:35):Right. Right. And the difference between just the, like the nuance between those three different that you listed is even more than I was thinking about, you know, because— as soon as I invited you on it, it was like, you were going to talk about mermaids. This is gonna be so cool. And and I'm thinking about like the specificity of a magazine about mermaids and you're right. Like an anthology that has a theme can still be a very broad theme where that's open to a lot of interpretation. And I would imagine that you'd even invite people to open "mermaids" to a lot of interpretation, but it's like if I was going to, and I, and I don't mean this to like downplay the mermaid theme because there's, there's a lot of cultural and historical, you know, genre kind of stuff going on with mermaids. But like if I had an anthology, where I was like, "every story has to have an apple pie in it," you know, like that could be really, really broad if, as long as there's an apple pie in it, it can be about anything you want, you know? But would you say that, and we'll get more into the Mermaids Monthly specifically later, but like, are you, are you looking for like, no, I want to center the mermaid or you, you think you want, like, "I don't know. What does mermaid make you want to write?" Julia Rios (00:09:58):Yeah. Okay. So this is something that we've talked about a lot. So I'm working on mermaids monthly with Meg Frank, who is an artist and also has a background in marketing. Rekka (00:10:06):And may or may not be a mermaid themselves. Julia Rios (00:10:09):Yeah. They may be a mermaid, it's entirely possible. So we've, we've kind of conceived this as what I originally, my first idea, this, the whole reason Mermaids Monthly exists is because I've been editing professionally for, I think eight years now, seven years now, some long time anyway. And many times when I'm on panels at conventions, or if I'm teaching a class, people will ask me, "Do editors really have to reject stories they actually like? Does that ever actually happen?" Because I think people tell writers like, "don't feel bad. It doesn't mean your story isn't good." And then writers are like, "well then why would you possibly reject a story that is good?" Rekka (00:10:49):Right. Julia Rios (00:10:50):And it does happen. It happens so often. And it's, it's heartbreaking because as an editor, you don't want to have to reject stories that are good. And also like, as an editor, I know. I'm also a writer. I know how awful it is to be rejected. I don't want to have to tell people like, "Hey, I know you spent a huge amount of time and poured your soul into writing this thing, but guess what? I'm not gonna take it." Rekka (00:11:13):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:11:14):But that's part of the job. So it's an unfortunate side effect of the cool things that you get to do. But one of the reasons why stories that are good can get rejected, and it's not the only reason, is that if you're editing something for a non-themed thing, if you're like a general magazine or a general arm of a publishing company that is not specifically highly themed, you can take one item that is similar. So you could take like one mermaid story and that's fine. You can maybe take two and get away with it. The second you take three of those things, you run the risk of becoming "that mermaid magazine." Rekka (00:11:56):Right. Julia Rios (00:11:58):Or like "that imprint that only publishes mermaid books." Rekka (00:12:02):Hey, you know, some people want that, but it does. There are reasons why publishers don't want to do that. Julia Rios (00:12:08):Like there are some places where that's that's appropriate. This is fine. I would always like end this with, "this is fine if you're Mermaids Monthly, but it's not so great if you're Strange Horizons," which has no stated theme except for science fiction and fantasy. Rekka (00:12:23):Right. Julia Rios (00:12:23):And it's like, "I'm not Mermaids Monthly. So I can't take more than a couple mermaid stories." Rekka (00:12:29):Unless... Julia Rios (00:12:29):"Unless, what if I am Mermaids Monthly and I can, and all I do is mermaids for awhile?" So I originally thought I was just going to do some, you know, take, take stories for a while and do one year of mermaids. And then when I brought it up with Meg, we started talking and, and what grew out of this was something bigger and more visual than I was originally expecting because Meg's background is in art and that there is so much cool mermaid art. So we're going to have comics, we're going to have illustrations, we're going to have all kinds of little visual cues that are mermaid involved as well. And that's different from most of the other end biologies that I've done, because most of the other ones that I've done, haven't had illustrations. They have like cover art and that's it. Rekka (00:13:16):Yeah, yeah. Even, even some of the magazines that go further with artwork still have like a full bleed illustration that either separate sections or just, you know, is for the titles that they think are going to be the most impactful. Julia Rios (00:13:35):Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this is going to be much more integrated. We have one bonus issue that's already come out. And so you can kind of get a sense of it because it has one comic and it has a few poems and Meg has done some sort of interstitial art bits. So you can see that it sort of does incorporate that visual art element all throughout, which is great because mermaids is such a visual theme and like under sea life. So that's very cool, and that's one of the things that I've been thinking about, like how, how different this will be is that it really does then affect everything. When we made our submissions guidelines, I realized like we were going to have separate art and prose guidelines. And we realized that we couldn't do that because, because it was also intertwined, we just needed everybody to send us stuff at the same time so that we could consider all of it together. Rekka (00:14:24):And so that's one thing, you know, stepping back from the specific anthology or, you know, anthology year of magazine— it needs its own name because you're doing so many really cool things with it that like, it, it doesn't, it's not fair to call it either magazine or anthology. Julia Rios (00:14:43):I do think it's fair to call it anthology. When you think about the idea of a TV series can be an anthology. You can have a collection of, for instance, like Amazing Stories or the Twilight Zone is considered an anthology. Rekka (00:14:56):Right. Julia Rios (00:14:57):All it means is that you're collecting things of a similar type that aren't necessarily individually related to each other, but are related to a larger theme. Rekka (00:15:05):Right. So when you are the editor for an anthology, you're not always going to be completely autonomous with regard to the project itself. So I'm wondering how, as you see the submissions come in and you may also not get to be the art director on the artwork for them. So this is, this is very different from what you're working on, which is so exciting. (I'm, I'm going to say that like, over and over and over during this episode.) But you do have control, usually, over the stories that you accept. So what kinda goes through your mind as you create a call for an anthology, and then, you know, the world being what it is, you might get stories that have nothing to do with what you were anticipating getting. How do you like assemble these? Like what goes through your mind as you assemble these things into a single work, that's going to have your name on it? Julia Rios (00:16:13):That's a really great question. And I think that one of the things that has been true for me is that when I'm doing something for a theme and I'm thinking about it something that might happen is I get something that I love that is a surprise to me that I wouldn't have thought of myself, and that can become sort of a pillar and, together with a few other things, they can kind of hold together the theme and be sort of like different poles—if you imagine the whole theme is like a tent and they have different poles at different points. And then the overall thing kind of like folds over everything and drapes there. And I think that what I usually find when I'm coming to coming up with an anthology type thing, is that I know I have a set length that I'm ultimately aiming at. So I know that there has to be a balance within that length and that if I get a few things that are different from each other, or a few things that are very similar to each other that are going to be the tent poles that hold it up, then I can kind of build around that to create the balance based on those things. Rekka (00:17:24):Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So when you say you're limited to a length, we're talking about like the total word count because the authors are being paid per word, and there's a budget for what the content is going to cost. Julia Rios (00:17:37):Yeah. And it's not just because of that. It can be because of a budget, but it can also be because that's the length, the physical length of a physical book, that you want to in someone's hands. Cause like if you buy 200,000 words, it's going to be a much thicker, heavier book. Rekka (00:17:56):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:17:57):Than if you buy 100,000 words. Rekka (00:17:59):Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, at 100,000 words, you're wondering how you're going to fit everything on the spine. At 200,000 words, you're like, "should I throw some illustrations on the spine? This thing is enormous. What do I do with all this space? Maybe I'll put a recipe here. I don't know." yeah. So when, so when you, aren't the conceptual, you know, creator of the anthology, like if someone says, I want to have an anthology based on this topic, but I want to find an editor that is going to do it justice, and I decide that's not me. How do you work with the person who brings you the anthology? Julia Rios (00:18:39):That's interesting. So I think that anytime I've been hired by someone else to do an anthology, either I've worked with them... So in the case of Kaleidoscope, my co-editor was the publisher, Alisa Krasnostein. Alisa Krasnostein is an Australian publisher of a small press called 12th Planet Press. And basically she heard me on a recording of a panel that I had been on at WisCon about dystopian YA and like how heteronormative it is. And she was like, "would you like to work with me? And we could do an anthology of like dystopian YA." And that was her original pitch. And I was like, "I would love to work with you. This sounds fun. I think we should make it not limited to queer or dystopian." And so like, then we ended up with this idea of like diverse YA science fiction and fantasy. So it was a very broad thing, which meant that... I realized at that point that if we were going to do a very, very narrow theme, that it would end up feeling, to me, like a lot of the same story over and over again, queer YA dystopian is a very narrow theme. And I like to kind of play around a little bit more. So we talked to each other until we kind of came up with something that worked for both of us. And she got really excited about, you know, including other kinds of diversity as well, and including other kinds of stories. And we came up with an anthology that was a really lovely anthology with a lot of great stories and that were all very different and that was okay, because they could be very different and still fit with the broader theme. Julia Rios (00:20:14):So that's one example of what happened was, basically I talked with the person and was co-editing, but in another instance, like for instance when I did the banned books week for Cast Of Wonders, they, they know that they want to do a banned books week showcase every year, and they usually get someone to guest edit it. So they asked me if I would like to be that editor. And they told me what they generally wanted, which was, it has to fit with this "censorship turns out the lights leaves us in the dark let's turn on the lights." And then they said, "basically, you know, here's the budget that you have, you make it work." And so I'm like, you know, they were like, "we want at least X amount of episodes. So it has to be a mixture of like short stories and flash and whatever, but like here, here, you can have this submissions pile and you can do what you want with it." Julia Rios (00:21:09):And I did have access to their first reader team and I did actually talk to their first readers. So if their first readers really loved something, I would take that into account. And I think that's generally my experience, anytime I'm editing with a team, I will definitely talk to other members of the team, and if something hasn't grabbed me on first read, but it's really grabbed some other people, I'll then take more time to consider it cause, obviously things work differently for different people, and just because something hasn't grabbed me right off the bat, it doesn't mean that it's not a beautiful story that I will ultimately love to publish. Rekka (00:21:45):Right. Right. Yeah. And you can get to know the story as you work with the author and, you know, appreciate more about it. Julia Rios (00:21:52):Yeah. And just having the chance to ask the other readers, like, "why did this resonate with you?" can kind of also open up different aspects of it. Rekka (00:22:00):Right. Because as you're reading through a slush pile, I imagine there's a pressure to just respond to every one of them as quickly as possible, you know, to be fair that there's the, "I know what I'm looking for this, isn't it" kind of, you know, and then maybe you get through the entire pile and you realize what you thought you wanted wasn't in there, but now you have this sense that there was something else in there that you, you know, that was forming that you didn't realize until you get to the end of it or something. How is that slush pile experience with you as like the lead editor? I mean, I know you said you worked with the first readers, but what does that actually look like? Cause I'm not sure that everybody really understands how that process works. Julia Rios (00:22:45):Okay. So usually in places where there are where there's a team of first readers, basically all the slush comes in and sometimes, depending on the place the main editor won't read any of the slush that hasn't been filtered. Sometimes everybody is kind of like picking stuff out of the pile and reading it and then setting aside the ones that they like to show people later. Usually there's like a first pass that happens when I do these things where it's like, yeah, that first pass is reading things and setting the things that look good aside and setting the things that I automatically know, like maybe they aren't for the theme or maybe it just didn't grab me. It wasn't something that I felt was ready. It, whatever, whatever reason, maybe it's actually a graciously offensive, that happens sometimes. Those things will get like set aside to be rejected right away. Julia Rios (00:23:41):And then you'll go and do more passes, then with each pass. You're kind of your goal is to cut it down further because ultimately, you know, you're going to want a very small percentage of that stack. And then finally, after that, so if the first readers have been doing it, they'll be passing things up and I'll be reading them after they pass them up. Maybe I won't read them until we get to a second round. So anybody who has been pulled out by a first reader might get a second round notice that says like, "Hey your story made it past the first round, but you've gotta wait longer, sorry." Rekka (00:24:15):Good news, bad news. Julia Rios (00:24:17):Yeah. And sometimes those stories are stories that I read and set aside. So I'm sending the story and being like, like basically if you get that notice somebody loved your story. They loved your story enough that they were like, "this is worth looking at more carefully and seeing if it fits the overall balance." Rekka (00:24:33):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:24:33):And then, like I said, usually what happens for me is I'll find one or two things that I'm like, "I know for sure this thing is definitely in." So then it's like, "how do the other things match against it?" And I think with that one in specific, like I had asked a couple of people to submit things and knew that those would be in the pile, but also didn't know which ones they were, because the way Cast of Wonders does reading, they make it so that you can't see who the author is when you're first reading it. Rekka (00:25:08):Right. Julia Rios (00:25:08):So Anonymous, Anonymous Submissions from the point of view of the reading team. Rekka (00:25:14):Right. Julia Rios (00:25:14):And that was really interesting to me because I knew like one of the stories that I had asked a specific author that I really like, I was like, "could you please submit something? Cause I know you'll write something good for this." And I knew it was their story, even though I didn't know what they were going to send. And I didn't know whose name was on the thing I, reading it, I was like, "this is this author. And I already know I want it." Rekka (00:25:37):Yeah. That's very cool. So on that note, a lot of anthologies will solicit work. Especially for instance, if this anthology, you know, this hypothetical anthology is being funded through Kickstarter there's a tendency to say, "and we will have these names that you already know" so that people back it because they're, you know, familiar or a fan of with or of the author names that they recognize. So when, when do you get to say like tap someone that "you know, you love their work and say, I want you to write me something." And when do you only get to say, "could you submit something please? So I can consider it?" Or is that a personal decision? Like, "I don't know for sure that this is up your alley, but I want to invite you to participate because I believe you would do well" versus like, "no, I guarantee you you're in it if you write me a story" and is that guaranteed? Julia Rios (00:26:34):So that depends a lot on the context. And for me, if I'm doing an anthology and I ask someone to please submit something, usually usually I'm asking them, knowing that I would accept what they would write. So in the case of Mermaids Monthly, for instance, for the Kickstarter, we have a list of contributors and those are all people that I've worked with before, or have high confidence in the stuff that I've read of theirs. And we know that they are willing to do something. We ask them ahead of time, "Would you be willing to write something?" We believe they will turn the thing in. If they turn something in, we will absolutely plan to take it. The only way we wouldn't is if somehow, like they didn't have time, some life emergency came up, or I don't know, somehow it turned out that someone I'd asked had secretly been a horrible racist and wrote— like in that case, yeah. I'm not going to accept it, but I'm only going to ask people that I would never imagine would do that. Rekka (00:27:37):Right. Of course. Julia Rios (00:27:39):We had, I think, 30 names in our contributors before we— Rekka (00:27:43):Yeah that was the last count I saw. Julia Rios (00:27:47):Yeah. And the reason why was because we know all of the formats that we're doing involve a lot of like smaller things. So we were able to do that many names and still know that we'll be able to take like as many people again from the slush. Julia Rios (00:28:00):Yeah. Yeah, I had to remind myself like, "Oh yeah, this is running all year 30 names doesn't mean it's already full." Julia Rios (00:28:06):Well, it's also like, "are those 30 people all turning in a long story?" No, some of them are doing illustrations. Some of them are doing like flash pieces that we specifically asked for or poems that we specifically asked for. So it depends. And, and what you're asking people to do will depend as well. But for that, I definitely can make that call. For the Cast of Wonders one, I couldn't just solicit something and say, for sure, "I know I want you to write this and I will absolutely take it," because I knew that the process for choosing those was going to be the process that they already had in place. Rekka (00:28:42):Right. Julia Rios (00:28:42):Which is you get Anonymous Submissions, you read those, and then the team kind of makes a decision. Rekka (00:28:49):And in your case, you were lucky that this person was recognizable. Julia Rios (00:28:52):I told that person, like, "I'd really love you to submit something. Cause I know you write, well, I can't guarantee anything." And I will tell— I'll be very transparent with people ahead of time about whether or not I can guarantee or not guarantee something. But for all the people that have already asked for Mermaids Monthly, I specifically like said, "I would like you to do X thing. Would you do X thing? If you do it, I will put it in this magazine as long as it funds." Julia Rios (00:29:17):Yeah. And do you ask them to shoot then for a word count goal? Julia Rios (00:29:22):Yeah. I do. So I've— some of the people I've asked for specific word counts of stories. Whether it's a flash piece or it's a short story, some people I've said like, "you can go right up to the limit," some people I've said, "Hey, I'm looking for something that's like two to three thousand words." I've asked some people for poetry, I've asked some people for illustrations and comics. It just kind of depends. And with the illustrations and things like that, it's like, there's a difference between whether we've asked someone to do an interior spot illustration or a cover, which the covers are going to be way more expensive. Rekka (00:29:59):Right. The covers are more expensive. They take up an entire page and you've got to account for that when you're planning your books and your layout, the spot illustrations might be resizable depending on how the the resolution and how they flow with the words around them, that kind of thing. That's and that's so neat. I love the, the mix of art that you're going to have in this. I'm excited to see how that turns out. So when you are then considering story lengths, do you get excited looking through the slush pile when you find like lots of flash, does that make you go, "Ooh, I can buy lots of stories." Julia Rios (00:30:35):Yeah. Rekka (00:30:35):Or is it really a matter of how the, the themes fit in? Julia Rios (00:30:39):I love flash. I think flash is harder to do than a lot of people realize. I love it when it works. Well, I think that flash stories are such a great little break. Like it's a little hit. So if you only have a five minute break to do something and you want to just read a story during those five minutes, flash is such a great little thing to do, and a good flash story can leave you laughing, or it can give you an emotional gut punch, or you can just come out of it being like, "Whoa, I had this thought that I never had before" and you never know what you're going to get. So I really do love it when it works well. I also do think it's really hard to pull off. So I love it when people submit it and, like every other story it's still a hard sell, but statistically, because we can buy more of them, because they will fit more in the space that we have and with the budget we have, you're more likely to get an acceptance with flash. Rekka (00:31:38):Right. It does seem like, okay, everybody, that's your hint, that's your little trick. Cause otherwise of course, everyone's going to say, "how do I get my story accepted?" And we're still talking generally here. I haven't even gotten to the mermaid stuff, but like generally, what would be your advice for someone who says like, "I want to write short fiction and I want to sell it to markets or sell it to anthologies." because especially with anthologies, generally, there's kind of a small window of the submissions. So unless someone's got something in their back pocket that's perfect for that anthology that they've been workshopping and they've been editing and they've been revising and had beta readers and, and they've, you know, been staring at for 10 years or something. There... What you're going to see is generally like maybe a second or third draft, if you're lucky. Right? So what do you what would you say to somebody who's looking at anthologies, looking at the short window from finding out what it's even about to having to submit their story? How did, how do you approach that as a writer or how would you tell a writer to approach? Julia Rios (00:32:45):Well, I mean, I've approached it as a writer myself. Because I, so I also have we didn't talk about this at all, but I've also written stories that have been in anthologies. So I've done a couple of stories that have been in A Larger Reality I and II, which were Mexican and Mexican American anthology of writers that were collecting stories—I think there was one comic in the first one and the second one was all very tiny flash pieces that were up to 300 words—and then also like art. That one was mostly online. The first one was actually a physical book and also an ebook. And these were made by Libia Brenda, who is the person, I think now she's doing some editing for Constelación Magazine. I met her through the Mexicanx initiative, which brought 50 Mexicanx creators to World Con in 2018. Julia Rios (00:33:39):And she then later became the first Mexican woman to be nominated for a Hugo award, which is awesome. And that was because of her involvement with A Larger Reality. But for that, like she basically reached out to all of us, all 50 of us and said, "does anyone want to make an anthology that we can hand out to people at WorldCon so that we can show them what Mexican writers do?" And she was sort of expecting people to not really be that excited about it because it was going to be free, but she was like, "I will just make it, it'll be fine." And all of us were like, "yes, this sounds like a great idea. Let's do it." So we ultimately did and we made a Kickstarter for it. Even though like we'd given her all the, all the stuff, but we did a Kickstarter just to raise the funds to cover the printing costs. And then also overfunded enough that we could pay all the authors, which was great. Rekka (00:34:28):Oh, that's very cool. Julia Rios (00:34:30):But for that one, it was basically like I had a period of a couple of months." And she said, "you know, if you have something already, it doesn't have to be a new thing, it can be a reprint". But most of us ended up writing new stories and I wrote a new story for that one. And that one, it was like, okay, I know I have a couple of months and I know this is going to go to like anybody who attends WorldCon and the goal of it is to try to show what kinds of stories Mexican creators make." Rekka (00:34:54):Right. Julia Rios (00:34:55):So I was like, "I want this to show something that has to do with my feeling as a Mexican person." Rekka (00:35:02):In 300 words or less! Julia Rios (00:35:04):Well the first one was not, it was not limited to that. Julia Rios (00:35:08):Oh okay. All right. I was thinking, "wow!" Julia Rios (00:35:09):I think the first one had like a 5,000 word sort of guideline limit. And I think mine was like two to three thousand. I can't remember exactly how long. Rekka (00:35:18):I was going to say, to introduce yourself to the WorldCon audience, and you have 300 words. Do your, do your whole culture proud. Julia Rios (00:35:27):So yeah, so that one I really wanted to, I didn't have to, like, no one told me I had to, but I wanted to do something that kind of touched on my identity as a Mexican person and also as a queer person, because those are two parts of me and I feel like the, the ways they intersect are important. And I wanted to show that like, no one is one thing, no one is all one thing. And so I ended up writing this story that had to do with a woman who is kind of jumping from dimension to dimension and trying to fix a relationship problem basically. But she's running into the same people and she's seeing how she's connected to them in different dimensions. And one of the things that comes through in that is that basically all of these people are, they're different instances of themselves, but there's something intrinsic to them that makes them them and these aspects of their identity are still really strong. And for me, like that was, that was something I thought about. And I was like, "I think I'm thinking about this because I'm thinking about how this anthology reflects specifically my identity." And even though this, this person is not me, and this is not actually an autobiographical thing, that was the kind of theme I was thinking about. So that was really cool in a way to do that. Julia Rios (00:36:43):But one of the things that I would say to anyone who's doing anything for an anthology call is find that thing that you, that you resonate with, that speaks to you, that you want to write about. Don't just do it because you know that like so-and-so wants vampires. Like it's not enough for it to be vampires. The thing that's going to make it stand out is that it has something that you care about. Julia Rios (00:37:11):And so I think the reason why my story in that anthology did get some good, critical reception and ultimately got reprinted in Latin American Literature Today is because I cared about it and it had some sort of heart to it. But the good thing about that is that also if for some reason, Libia had not accepted it, which in this case it was a softball—I knew she was going to accept it, but that's, that's lucky. Rekka (00:37:37):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:37:37):But if for some reason she hadn't, it was a story that I could have sent somewhere else. Right. Like I could have, I could have submitted that to some other place. And ideally even when you're writing for a theme, it's something that if it doesn't work for that anthology, you can still send it someplace else. Rekka (00:37:55):And one thing to consider is that everyone else who was rejected from that anthology now has a new story that they're going to send everywhere else. So if yours feels like theirs probably going to have a lot of competition. Julia Rios (00:38:07):Yeah. So if you're just writing, whatever you think is the default vampire or a mermaid story for a vampire or a mermaid, and— Julia Rios (00:38:14):Hypothetical anthology... Julia Rios (00:38:16):Like, right, then, then you know that if you send it to fantasy magazine, fantasy magazine is also going to get everybody else's default mermaid story. But if your story has something that you care about in it, that somehow makes it stand out, it's going to stand out. Rekka (00:38:33):Right. So your advice, nothing to do with tricks, it has nothing to do with editing out certain words that bother editors. It has nothing to do with how to write your cover letter perfectly. It is write your authentic story. Julia Rios (00:38:49):Yeah. I'm sorry. Rekka (00:38:51):That's no, that's, that's so good though. Julia Rios (00:38:52):It's not the advice anybody wants. Rekka (00:38:55):No. Yeah. Okay. So people who want advice, that's going to shoehorn them into an anthology or make them a shoe-in to put more shoes in the conversation. Like they're looking for the answer of like, "Oh yeah, well, you know, for my mermaid thing, definitely makes sure that she's got green fins, because if that mermaid has green fins, I'm a sucker for green fins you're in." and you're not going to find that kind of advice because that is, that is not a guarantee, even if that was true for you, you know. Julia Rios (00:39:26):It's not the only time that that is true is if you have been asked for a specific tie-in media and you know exactly what that, that place wants, and you're doing, usually in this case, you're doing something that's like work for hire, which means that you don't own the rights to it. And you're going to get paid one fee. You're never going to have the right to sell that story again, or to reprint it or to get royalties. It's just going to be like, you write it and you give it to that company and it's theirs. Yeah. And in that case, like, there are definitely things that I've done before where if I'm doing that, I'm like, you know, maybe I'm adapting someone else's work for an app and I don't really have a say in it. And it's like, "you do this to this formula and you turn in the exact word count that we want. And it's supposed to, you know, she does have green fins and she has rainbow eyes and that's the end." Rekka (00:40:17):Right, right. But that's not that's not an anthology call. That's a, as you said, work for hire, like you, you play by someone else's rules in that case, you're, you're a contractor doing the work for somebody else who already had the idea and you, if you're lucky, you get to play around with things a little bit, but probably probably a totally different experience from writing for an anthology where it's an open submissions call or even a solicited. Julia Rios (00:40:47):I think It is in some ways, but like sometimes you'll see anthology calls from places like Wizards of the Coast. Rekka (00:40:52):Oh, okay. Julia Rios (00:40:52):And if they're asking for like a specific thing then, you know, there's probably a very specific D and D story that they want. Rekka (00:41:01):Okay. That's fair. I get that. I concede. We touched on budgeting for the anthology a little bit, but here you are like crafting Mermaids Monthly from the ground up. Julia Rios (00:41:13):Yeah. Rekka (00:41:13):Like what's the process for creating this project and finding the shape of it with regard to the budget and with regard to what you want it to be versus what's practical? Because, you know, I've seen anthology, Kickstarters go up and their budget like that, they're asking people to fund is like $5,000. And I realize, you know, that might be for single book and it's probably not for, you know, 12 issues' worth that might be close to 150,000 words when they're done—I don't know what your goal is total—but it always seems that people are afraid to ask for the right amount on Kickstarter to begin with. So how do you balance not coming up with a whopper of a number versus like, actually, cause I know paying the people who contribute in any way to this is important to you. So how do you create that budget when you haven't even seen the stories or the artwork yet? Julia Rios (00:42:06):This is really hard. And basically it involves sitting down and writing down a bunch of different projections of "what would happen if we did it this way, what would happen if we did it this way? What about this other way?"" And after you've got like 50 of those different scenarios, then it's sort of like, okay, what are the things that we think would be the most doable and the coolest that we'd be the most excited about?" so when I first started this, like I thought, "okay, I can do this. And I'll just ask for like some short fiction, that's basically it." And then I was like, "maybe I'll do short fiction and poetry because I really like poetry." and I think that there aren't enough poetry venues out there that pay authors fairly. So I was like, "okay, I'll do short fiction and poetry." Julia Rios (00:42:52):And then I asked Meg like, "do you want to get involved as my marketing person and maybe like help with design?" And then it sort of snowballed from there. But from there we talked about all kinds of things. We talked about audio, we talked about making the stories longer or doing other things and ultimately decided, okay, we don't want to have no stories that are not flash. We do want to have some stories that are longer stories. But it wasn't practical for us to ask for more than 5,000 words, because we were also committed to paying at least 10 cents a word. Rekka (00:43:27):Right. Julia Rios (00:43:27):So like that was one of those things where it's like, you can pay less, you can pay 8 cents a word, which I think 8 cents a word is now the SFWA minimum? Julia Rios (00:43:36):Yep, that is still the SFWA minimum. So your 10 cents is above that. You're definitely, pro-rate right here. Julia Rios (00:43:40):Just a little above it, but it's still above it. And for us, like I, we came up with that number because I was like, "what would I personally, as a writer be really excited about?" And the bottom line, there was 10 cents. So I was like, "I will, I will be committed to paying writers 10 cents." Rekka (00:43:54):Right. Julia Rios (00:43:54):Um for this reason also we have a thing where it's like, if we're doing reprints or any other things, and the amount would come in at less than $20, based on our per word rate, we will do a minimum of $20 because we don't want anyone to come out with less than $20. So like that's, that's just based on bottom lines for me where I'm like, ""okay, when I think about it as with my writer hat on, what would I be okay with? And when I think about selling a reprint, our reprint rate is low. It's 1 cents. It's 1 cent a word, but we're like excited. See your reprint stuff. The reason why I was like, it's going to be low. Is that,, for me reprints aren't the most important thing for this magazine. Rekka (00:44:40):Right. Julia Rios (00:44:40):We're going to be doing a lot of original stuff, but we're not opposed to them. And for an author, a reprint is just extra money. Rekka (00:44:47):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:44:47):It's like, you have already done that work, so you don't have to do it again. Rekka (00:44:51):Right. Julia Rios (00:44:52):And now, someone's just going to give you a little bit of extra cash and you get to keep it. Julia Rios (00:44:56):Yeah. Which is always nice. Julia Rios (00:44:57):Which is always nice. Julia Rios (00:44:59):Yeah. And it's cool to have, you know, both sides of the perspective on the project that you have edited before, but you are also somebody who submits and you know what is fair for both sides and you try to work so that everybody's getting as much of the fair experience as they can. Julia Rios (00:45:18):Yeah. And it's, it's tricky because it's also, like I realize that rates for... Going rates for science fiction and fantasy that are considered professional are really low compared to anything that people are doing if they're pitching nonfiction to mainstream magazines, for instance. Julia Rios (00:45:35):I saw somebody do the math recently that like if, if inflation had been applied to professional science fiction and fantasy rates, we'd be getting $75 a word or something by now. Can you imagine that world? Julia Rios (00:45:49):So it's not a large amount. Wow. I just know that in like in the 1950s and earlier, it was possible to actually make a living selling short stories to magazines. Like that was a thing that you could do. Yeah. So when you, you hear sometimes people saying like, you should do what Ray Bradbury did, which is like, write a story a week. Rekka (00:46:07):You should also travel back in time and live when Ray Bradbury did. Julia Rios (00:46:11):And I'm like, "yeah, if you live in the 1950s, you can do that. If you live now, it's like, well, that's not really where you're making your money." And honestly, like for most writers, even with novel length work, that's not where you're really making your money. Some people are lucky and they break out with these large advances and then they earn out and they get large sales and they get good royalties. Rekka (00:46:35):And then they get more large advances. But the rest of us... Julia Rios (00:46:37):Most of the time, it's like, this is going to pay a little bit, but not a whole lot and you should either have a day job or use this to create other opportunities for yourself. So like you can use it to then get speaking and teaching engagements. I think going back to your other question, like why people charge different rates at Kickstarter, it's because it depends too, what they're doing. So some people might already have certain things taken care of like either they've already paid their authors and they know that they only need to raise the money for printing a book, or maybe they have other investors somehow like supplementing things. Rekka (00:47:21):Or extreme optimism. Julia Rios (00:47:22):Right. So like you can, if you've already got a magazine that has a subscriber base, for instance, and you decide that you want to kickstart your next year of that magazine, you can kind of take some of the amount out of that, that building it from the ground up because you have that subscriber base. Rekka (00:47:40):Okay. Julia Rios (00:47:40):Um if you've got a press that's already up and running and you've already produced a lot of books, then maybe you have a clear idea already, if you're like a one person operation, that you know how you're doing your book design and you're not going to pay another person to design it. And that's labor that you're willing to just take as the cost that you're providing yourself. And then maybe like, if you're me, you're like, "okay, well, I'm working with Meg and Meg is designing and Meg needs to be paid for that work." and even though we're paying ourselves a very low amount of money, our Kickstarter is taking into account that we want to pair something because it's like, "okay, even if this cannot remotely count as living wage, I want to Mark that we are, we're doing a lot of work." Rekka (00:48:27):Right. And there's value in that. Julia Rios (00:48:29):And there's value in work. It's important to recognize that there's value in work. And if we won't recognize it, no one else will. Rekka (00:48:35):Absolutely. Yeah. Now what about the payment structure? Because authors who write for an anthology or a magazine get paid once. Julia Rios (00:48:45):Yeah. Rekka (00:48:46):So if a book completely pays for itself, like the profits of that go to the publisher usually, right? Julia Rios (00:48:55):Yeah. Rekka (00:48:55):Then the author would only expect to see more money for that story by reselling it as you were discussing. Julia Rios (00:49:01):Yeah. So generally it, it depends because sometimes when you have something with like a large publisher, if you have something with one of the big now for that exists in New York, they just had another buyout. So we've gone down from five to four. But if you have an anthology through those, so like maybe the ones that were done by saga press in the last two years, The Mythic Dream and The Starlit Wood those, if they earn out those authors might get royalty checks, that would be split between all of the authors and the anthology and the editors. But for most places, and especially in the small press world, you're selling it for one rate and you're selling it for that per word rate and you're not going to see royalties later. Main reason for me on this is that I am not an accountant. And—. Rekka (00:49:52):Yeah I was going to say, the bookkeeping! Julia Rios (00:49:55):Trying to split royalties between 25 or 30 or 50 or a hundred people is just it's— Rekka (00:50:02):Yeah. Because especially with the distribution to the online retailers for digital books, like it is impossible to know how, where that money is coming from sometimes. They make it so impossible to know like, okay, it was this many books and they made this much money. And okay, now you're going to divide that into how many words the book was and then pay out based on, you know, the word count for each. I mean, even if it goes well, that's a lot of work. Julia Rios (00:50:26):Yeah. Rekka (00:50:27):You know, like you might be able to write a spreadsheet to figure it out, but the way that you get reporting these days, Nope. Not gonna happen. Julia Rios (00:50:35):It's hard. It's a lot. And the truth is that for most anthologies that come out through small presses, they either don't earn out or like what they've raised for their Kickstarter is them basically paying for the cost of making the book. Right. Rekka (00:50:48):So they, they earn out by default and then that's probably it. Julia Rios (00:50:53):And then that's it. Maybe they make like a little bit over, but once you split that between all the contributors, it's like," does everybody actually want to check for 50 cents?" Rekka (00:51:01):Right. I mean, I would probably hang it on the wall. I can't even say I would cash that. Julia Rios (00:51:08):Yeah. So, so that's the reason why I think for most of the time, when you're selling to an anthology, you're selling it once. And that's a good reason to look at rights in the contract, because if an anthology is buying the right to then like exclusively, have your story forever and you don't get to do anything with it, that's a bad deal and you shouldn't take it unless you, for some reason really love it. Like, I guess if it's a Star Wars anthology, and you're a huge Star Wars fan, that's a different story. Maybe it's worth it for you, just so that you can have a book on your shelf that's a Star Wars book that has your name in it. That's totally fair. But that's a personal decision that you're going to be making. And like the great thing about this is that people are making lots of movies and different things based on short stories. So like Ted Chiang's Arrival, like the movie Arrival is based on a novella. Rekka (00:51:56):Yeah. In fact, I've heard advice that like they make better movies, generally, based on the source material than when someone tries to turn like, say, a 10 book series into a movie. Julia Rios (00:52:08):Yeah. Well, like a novel can make a good TV series and sometimes you can have a good adaptation of a novel into a movie, but when you're working with a short story length, it's easier to adapt that into, into one movie length thing. Rekka (00:52:20):Yeah. Julia Rios (00:52:21):And Hollywood gets excited about that. So if you can have your backlog of short stories and somehow you attract the attention of someone in Hollywood, then you're also like, by the way, I have these other ones. Rekka (00:52:32):As long as you make sure that anthology publisher did not take your media rights. Julia Rios (00:52:38):Which, ideally they would not have taken your media rights. And also like they ideally won't take exclusivity for a very long time. Like most places are gonna take it for maybe a year, maybe two, depending on like how their, what their publishing plan is. But like, most places are not going to say, we're going to hold onto your story forever. And you can watch out for that because then as soon as, as soon as those rights are back for you, you can sell that to someone else. You can republish it yourself. If you have a lot of stories, you can make your own collection and just kind of stick it up there as an ebook. Rekka (00:53:12):And first audio rights are good to keep track of too. Julia Rios (00:53:15):Yeah. Oh yeah. All of that stuff. So it's good to know what rights you have and to remember that, but like there are reprint markets out there, there are places like Pod Castle that will buy a reprint audio. They'll buy the audio rights to something that's already been published. Sometimes they'll buy the audio rights to something that's already had an audio version because they're gonna make their own. Rekka (00:53:36):Right. So how do you, because you've done this successfully wrangle all the cats that are involved? Because you've got editors, you've got authors, you've got contracted artists and designers and other contractors. That seems like a lot. So I'm glad to hear you're paying yourself for the mermaids because this is not a small job. Julia Rios (00:53:58):It's a lot. And I say that if you really want to make an anthology, that it is a management project, so you have to be ready to take on a manager role. And it's, it's good to remember that as much as there's fun stuff, there's also a lot of just like dotting the i's and making sure your contracts are all in and signed and that your payroll, like somebody is responsible for paying everyone and making sure that they were paid on time. Rekka (00:54:29):And that there's a record of it. Julia Rios (00:54:32):Exactly. That you have author approval on the final versions of the stories. That, that you have had a chance to see everything through a proofreader. And that you've, you've had someone double check that your layout works and all of those other things, there are so many different pieces of it. And I can't stress, that collaboration is very important, I can't stress that enough. Some people are able to do most things on their own. Like I think that think Mike Allen over at Mythic Delirium Books does most of it himself or with his wife Anita Allen, who's the other person who runs that. So they're like doing their own design and editing and everything else together, but it's a lot based on what you already know, you know, how to do. So I think the reason why Mike can do that, why Mike and Anita can do that together is because they started with a zine in like the nineties, I think. And it was like a paper zine that they would have made, you know, at home or from Staples or whatever. Rekka (00:55:39):Right. Julia Rios (00:55:40):They had a lot of time curating zines and putting them together and realizing how that worked. And then also Mike works for newspapers. So he has experience working in the newspaper publishing side of things. And he probably has experience through his job with things like InDesign. And, and because of that, he, he moved on to doing anthologies and he did like the Clockwork Phoenix series, which were all sort of self-made anthologies that he was doing himself. And because of that, he learned over the course of time, what are the things that he knows how to do and what are the resources he has available. Rekka (00:56:15):And what are the pieces that go into something? Julia Rios (00:56:17):Exactly, what are the pieces that go into something and what can he do himself? Whereas like for me, I know for instance, I know about myself that I am not a designer and I do not have that skill. I am not an artist. Visual art is not my strong suit. So, so one thing I've been doing during the promotional phase of mermaids monthly with the Kickstarter is like, okay, if we get to this number, like I will attempt to draw a mermaid." Rekka (00:56:43):And you did a very, very nice job. Julia Rios (00:56:45):"This Will be a fun exercise for all of us because I am not an artist." and yeah, I think it's a cute, fun drawing that I made of this mershark with like giant sharp teeth. But if you look at it and you look at anyone, who's actually an artist doing the same kind of thing, their version is gonna be much better. So I could make Mermaids Monthly myself, and it would be a very plain production. And that's fine. I could use something like Vellum for instance, which is basically a, what you see is what you get book designing tool that would produce a perfectly readable, simple book. And that is a totally acceptable path, but I know that I would love to have higher production values. So I have to pull in other people and Meg has major design skills that I do not have. So I was like, "Meg, do you want to do this?" And Meg was like, "sure, I'll do this." And everything that Meg has turned out is something that like, I didn't even know how to ask for it because I didn't know that's what I wanted. Rekka (00:57:46):Right, right. Yeah. Having the expertise on your team is so critical whether it's yours or whether you recognize that you need to find somebody else. Julia Rios (00:57:56):It is. And as for the rest of it, like making a list. So having like multiple spreadsheets with task breakdowns, having processes in place that you invent and recheck as you go along and revise. So for instance, with Megan, I, every time we do a contract, one of us puts it together. They send it to the other person for review. We go through multiple rounds of like, "Hey, I found this typo," or "I think this clause needs to change." But like our rule is we don't just send it to the author before it's gone through the, the two-person review system. Rekka (00:58:32):And then I assume you have, you know, spreadsheets of all the authors and what they've signed or what they've turned in or what they've gotten in terms of edits. And if they've gotten those back and if the final proof has happened and all of that, there are a lot of steps. And then you multiply that by however many authors you're going to have involved. Plus then, you know, the different processes for artists and their visual work. So that's, that's so much. So obviously, you know what you're doing. Julia Rios (00:58:58):[[Laughter]] Rekka (00:58:58):So now let's like, just get really excited over mermaids monthly because people who are listening to this live have until the 12th of December 2020, Saturday to fund help fund on Kickstarter. I'm sure by now it's already funded because it's going swimmingly. Julia Rios (00:59:17):Let's hope that your words are definitely prophetic and that will happen. Rekka (00:59:22):So at this point, it's, you know, you've got, I think the last count I saw was something like 8,600 to go of a very you know, I will say it was an ambitious goal because you were, you were planning to pay people fairly including yourself. So that's excellent and everyone's behind you, which is really, really cool to see that the funding is going well, it's consistently going up. I think everything I've seen has been really, really positive and a lot of people are really excited about this anthology. So tell me, aside from not wanting to reject more than three mermaid stories, like, what are you, what are you hoping for at this end, before you've seen any of the submissions? Julia Rios (01:00:06):Well. Okay. So I'm hoping to find things that surprise and delight me. I'm hoping to have fun. I know that some of the stories will be like sad or scary. That's, that's a thing that I'm sure will happen. Rekka (01:00:21):And you did invite people to, you know, do dark stories if they wanted. Julia Rios (01:00:24):Oh, yeah, I'm not saying we don't want those, but I'm also hoping that there will be some percentage of mermaid stories that we get that will genuinely just be delightful, mermaid romps. Because I think especially after this year that we've all just been through, like having some fun things to just sort of be a little beam of, not sunshine cause we're underwater, but you know, we just need those cute bioluminescent jellyfish to let us, say... Rekka (01:00:52):Oh, gosh, I'm like, you're going to get a submission from me that's going to end up being like a mermaid roadtrip story with lots of bioluminescing. Julia Rios (01:01:00):See, I love this! I love it. So I'm excited to see what we get and I'm excited to see all the different ways that people interpret it because I can think of lots of different creative ways to do it, but I know that all the things that I think of are not what other people will default to. Rekka (01:01:15):Which is what's so great about anthologies. Julia Rios (01:01:17):Yeah, I love that. I can't wait to see what we'll get. So one of the authors that I solicited a story from that I'm really excited about is Debra Goelz, who has written a novel that is published through wattpad and it is called Mermaids and the Vampires Who Love Them. Rekka (01:01:36):Oh that's excellent. This is very promising. Julia Rios (01:01:38):It's a YA novel about a mermaid who goes to like a special academy for supernatural creatures and gets a vampire boyfriend. Rekka (01:01:47):Nice. Julia Rios (01:01:47):Uh there's a lot of other stuff going on in the, in the plot of this book, but like that's the gist of it. And the title sort of gives you a sense of how ridiculous and fun it's going to be. Cause it's c

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Hilary Bisenieks and his writing: Twitter @hbbisenieks Website hilarybisenieks.com Lamplight Magazine Volume 5 Skies of Wonder, Skies of Danger    Mentioned in this episode: Sarah Gailey Mortified podcast Rank & Vile podcast Fran Wilde Merc Wolfmoor David Tennant Does a Podcast With...   Episode Transcript (Our usual transcriptionist is taking a well-deserved break. Any drop in quality of today's transcript is totally our fault.) Kaelyn (00:00):Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, the show about writing publishing and everything in between I'm Kaelyn Considine. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:08):And I'm Ri—(sputter) Who am I? I am Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:13):So, um, today in a, in what we kind of joked was a slight departure, but then it turned out it really isn't that much of a departure from writing and publishing, we're talking about podcasting and, uh, you know, is this something that you need to do or have, or partake in at all? Rekka (00:29):I, I do plan to, um, you know, someday have an episode about actually, how do you do this if it's a thing you want to do? Um, because much like Kaelyn's conception of this podcast was based on someone going, what, how would you know what to do? Um, you know, that's, that's something that I—now I'm feeling like we already did this. Did we do that topic already? Or if I just planned it so thoroughly in my mind, I remember doing it. Kaelyn (00:55):We haven't done one about podcasts. Rekka (00:56):Okay. So I was just, yes. Okay. I've just done that thing. Kaelyn (01:01):It's okay. I dream podcast too. And then think we did episodes about stuff, Rekka (01:05):If only we could record those. Kaelyn (01:07):You don't, you don't want to see those. Rekka (01:09):So, yeah, so I thought, like, "Okay. Someday, we're going to have to do an episode on, like, I want to start a podcast. How do I do that?" But first, maybe we take you aside and we have a conversation about— Kaelyn (01:21):Should youuuu? Rekka (01:21):—Where do podcasts come from and is that something that you're ready for? Kaelyn (01:26):Um, and we didn't do this alone. We had a guest this week, sorry, we buried the lede there a little bit. We're we're joined this week by Hilary Bisenieks. Rekka (01:35):Hilary is the host of Tales from the Trunk. And, um, the podcast features monthly interviews with science fiction, fantasy and horror authors and readings from their trunked work. And I thought it would be great to have him on, to be another voice of reason in this conversation of like, "I'm a writer. There are lots of writers with podcasts. Is that a thing a writer is supposed to do? Is that a thing I need to do? I already have an idea? Is it a good idea? Should I do this? Um, I already bought a microphone. Should I do this?" You know, that's kinda how it goes. Kaelyn (02:04):If you listen to this episode and you're still like, "Yeah, this is a good idea. This is something I want to do." Then you've made it past the first step because we do not make this sound like a pleasant process. Rekka (02:16):We don't, do we? I mean, it is fun. We have a lot of fun. You hear stuff all the time, but it's a lot of work too. And, um, when we do that production process episode that I apparently believe I already did, um, you know, we'll get into the actual process, the time we spend, you know, the hours or the costs involved and stuff like that. Um, but for now, you know, before you even dip your toe in, have a listen to, uh, Kaelyn and my conversation with Hilary about like, where do podcasts ideas come from and should you follow through on them? Kaelyn (02:54):Enjoy everyone. We'll see you on the other side of the music. Hilary Bisenieks (02:55):I have never caused nonsense in my life. Kaelyn (03:16):It's sometimes it's nonsense sometimes it's, um, it's like varying degrees of chaos. The chaos is a little more deliberate than nonsense is something that just happens. Hilary Bisenieks (03:26):Yep. Sounds right. Kaelyn (03:29):Yeah. Rekka (03:29):So this episode is about making a podcast and we've just experienced one of the reasons not to. Kaelyn (03:37):Do you need one? Well, that depends. Do you like high blood pressure at a reasonable level? Rekka (03:44):So as we said in the intro, we are joined by Hilary. Um, we gave your podcast intro, um, already, but do you want to say a little bit about yourself? Um, you didn't, you know, have me mention that you were a writer as well, so— Hilary Bisenieks (03:58):Oh yeah. Minor stuff like that. Kaelyn (04:01):Not important, certainly not for a podcast about writing. Hilary Bisenieks (04:05):Yeah. Uh, I am a writer who has trunked a lot of stories, which I felt made me qualified to, uh, make a podcast about trunking stories. And, uh, you can find my work in Lamplight Magazine and in the anthology Skies of Wonder, Skies of Danger. Rekka (04:29):Awesome. So at what point did you decide that writing wasn't enough work that you wanted to add to it? Hilary Bisenieks (04:41):2005, when I decided that I wanted to be a writer, but I decided... I started my show, uh, in the spring of 2019, after having some conversations with other writing friends about how I thought that I had a really good idea for a podcast, and I really wanted somebody to do it. Kaelyn (05:04):Oh, I know nothing about that. Rekka (05:07):This sounds very familiar. Hilary Bisenieks (05:09):And then I realized that nobody else was going to do it. Then I was told that my initial idea for a podcast was going to be extremely difficult for somebody with as little name recognition as I had. Kaelyn (05:23):I'm having such flashbacks right now. Hilary Bisenieks (05:23):And then I changed the concept slightly, uh, at the suggestion of Sarah Gailey, who, if you ever get the chance to get an idea from Sarah Gailey, do it, do it, do it. Then I launched my podcast two months later. Kaelyn (05:43):So Hilary, do you want to talk about your podcast a little bit? What you conceived of it as the idea from Sarah Gailey and what it became? Hilary Bisenieks (05:51):Absolutely. So my initial idea was I really wanted to have a podcast that was, uh, kind of along the same lines as Mortified, where I would have writers come on and read excerpts from their juvenalia. Yeah. I thought it would just be a great time because I have a lot of terrible juvenalia in my trunk and I thought it would be super fun to have a show where you just get like Hugo winners to come on and read like just, you know, their childhood picture books and stuff like that. And Sarah Gailey rightly told me, "you, a person who, while—" I am, you know, talented and kind and whatever else— "have almost zero name recognition, not really going to be able to do that show. Kaelyn (06:50):Yeah. It's going to be hard to, to get those people on. Yes. Hilary Bisenieks (06:54):Uh, and so they suggested, I initially pitched it as like, "Oh, you know, nobody else is going to do the show. I should try to do this show" and pitched it to, uh, Sarah Gailey and some other friends. And they said to me, "I wouldn't be comfortable doing that, but you know what would be absolutely amazing is if you had one where people came on and read stories that they had trunked," and I was like, "Ohhhh." Kaelyn (07:27):And Hilary real quick, just for people who may be listening and don't know the phrase "trunked." Hilary Bisenieks (07:32):Oh yeah, yeah. Uh, so trunk is put your story in a trunk, decide that you can't sell it for whatever reason. Uh, there are, I think as many reasons to trunk a story as there are stories. Kaelyn (07:45):Yeah. Yeah. So like, if you, if you hear somebody say like, "I'm going to trunk this," it means "I'm not shopping this anymore. I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not going to query this even, you know, I have an agent and my agent is like, guys really, sorry, this is not—" Hilary Bisenieks (08:00):Yeah. My, my most recent episode of the show, uh, at the time that this goes up is, uh, talking with Jennifer Mace. And, uh, she brought onto the show, an excerpt from what was going to be her debut YA and then, uh, as we talked about on the show, she just couldn't sell it. It just wasn't fitting with the markets. And so she and her agent made the decision to stop trying to shop it around and move on to the next thing. Kaelyn (08:35):Uh, as, as an editor, I I'm radiating appreciation now for the ability to take a step back and say, "I've written this thing, I've spent all this time on it. This iteration of it is not going to sell. I like it's a, it was, I hopefully had a lot of fun writing it, but it's just not for public consumption." Hilary Bisenieks (08:55):Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, the, the idea pretty much spiraled from Sarah saying "if you had a show where people read their trunked stuff, I would totally be on that." And, Kaelyn (09:12):Things just went from there. Hilary Bisenieks (09:12):Uh, yeah, I, in, within a day I had a name within, I think two days after that I had a mock up sketch for my logo. Uh, thankfully I went to a college with a bunch of amazing creative people and like knew an illustrator already whose work I thought would work well for the concept I was going with. Kaelyn (09:37):I am, I'm having such flashbacks like right now, it's like, this is like this, this is almost exactly what happened to me with this. So, uh, you know, people who've listened to this show before probably heard me tell this story, but, um, the way this got started was I was, I was out with friends, somebody brought a new boyfriend and was doing the good new boyfriend thing where he's trying to like talk. I mentioned, you know, I, I have this publishing company with a, with a couple of friends and he was like, well, you know, "if you've write a book, like, what do you do then?" And I'm walking through all these steps and he's like, "well, how do you find that? Like, how do you know this?" Like, and I was like, "I just know it, like, you know, and there's things even I don't, I don't know." Kaelyn (10:27):And, you know, I had had a couple of glasses of wine or whatever, so I get home and I'm just Googling all of this stuff about like bookmaking process, you know, and there's like partial information. I was like, "wow, there is really no centralized kind of walkthrough of like the broad steps of what happens, you know, when you write a book and how it gets published." So I spoke— I woke up the next morning and I had written down a whole bunch of bullet points and scratched some things out. And what had, I reorganized them into something coherent. And I went to our publisher, Collin Coyle at Parvus Press and said, "I think we should do this limited run podcast series. We'll go through all of this. We can change, you know, we'll do 15 to 30 minutes an episode, depending on, you know, how big the topic is. Um, you can do it with, you know, guests on and stuff." Kaelyn (11:19):I had no intention of being on this. I don't like the sound of my own voice. I especially don't like it recorded. I think it does not sound like me at all. And Colin was like, "yeah, let's be honest. We don't really have time for that. And, um, but it's a really good idea, but maybe you should do this instead." So then Colin mentioned this to Rekka. Rekka (11:44):About that time I'd already had about, uh, you know, I think just slightly under a year of podcasting, um, with the different podcast and my podcast co-host lost all his free time and I was kind of trying to float it along and I was getting ready to give up, honestly, and I had a conversation with Colin, um, and he's like, "so you need a new cohost." I'm like, "yeah, I really do." And he's like, "so, uh, Kaelyn, who you met at the Nebulas. And he's like, she's got this concept for a podcast." Rekka (12:12):I said, "so Colin says, you want to do a podcast with me." And she's like, "no, God, no!" Kaelyn (12:17):I said, "I don't want to do a podcast. Somebody else was supposed to do the podcast. I just had the idea and I could edit it." Yeah. Sometimes it's—. Hilary Bisenieks (12:26):Podcasts just happen. Kaelyn (12:28):Yeah. So, but I will say that like one of the reasons Rekka and I decided to go through this—and we spent a lot of time looking for reasons that we shouldn't—was, is anybody making podcasts out there about publishing and the writing aspect of publishing? And we couldn't find anything and I was shocked. Um, there was like one thing that was like, uh, a graduate project from somebody doing like their master's degree. Rekka (12:56):It was all of like six episodes. And that was like three years ago. Kaelyn (13:00):It was very, very dry. I couldn't believe that there wasn't something out there that just talks about like, "Hey, here's an episode on, you know, what query letters are. Here's what it means if your book is distributed," you know, um, these very basic things that are hard to find concentrated information online about. Hilary Bisenieks (13:28):Yeah. Like, that's kind of the same angle that I came out with my podcast. One, once I jelled on the idea of trunked stories specifically, um, was like, there are so many podcasts about, you know, writing things and how to write good. Um, you know, we've got Writing Excuses, we've got, you know, Ditch Diggers with all these things, but there's no podcasts about, okay, "I wrote the thing and I couldn't sell it. And what do I do next? And like, how do I move on?" Rekka (14:02):Yeah. Kaelyn (14:04):So this podcast got started because I couldn't find anything else that was doing this. I went out of my way, Rekka and I both did, scouring the internet, trying to find anything, even a website, that was kind of like funneling all this information into one place. It sounds like you kind of came upon, you know, a unique idea as well. And so back to, you know, the central theme of this, Do You Need a Podcast? I think one of the ways to answer that is, is somebody else doing it? Are they doing it better than you're probably going to do it? Is that, you know, do you have the time for this? Is this something that the world really needs, is to hear this podcast? And I know this sounds like, I don't know if condescending's the right word, but you know, like sounds like weird advice coming from somebody who didn't even want to start a podcast and then did. But, um, you know, I think there's... This is something intrinsic to writers. No, no offense guys, but you guys like to talk, so to speak, in terms of, you know, getting words out into the world, um, a podcast is a way to get more words out into the world. Rekka (15:19):But there are an awful lot of writers who are terrified of the idea of actually speaking aloud to other people. Kaelyn (15:24):That's a good point. That's a very good point. Hilary Bisenieks (15:27):I thought that I hated the sound of my own voice before I started my podcast. And I won't say I love the sound of my own voice. That would be a very like cishet white guy thing to do. And I'm not about that, but like I've learned to get past the sound of my own voice because I was going to be hearing it, you know, on average 20 minutes an episode. Rekka (15:51):If you're going to edit your own stuff. You're going to be hearing your voice. And if that's going to really bother you, if you are going to feel like nails on chalkboard, every time you have to edit (cringey noises), just saying. Hilary Bisenieks (16:03):Maybe don't. Rekka (16:04):If it, if that's an incredibly uncomfortable and it's like, what's your pain point? You know, at what point are you going to say "this was a terrible idea." And the other, you know, thing to just do is just record a couple of episodes because we tend, when we release a podcast to have a couple of episodes banked up and released, like, you know, the, the new Dis— was it Disney+ or a Netflix that, um, put up a couple episodes of something recently? Kaelyn (16:28):Oh Amazon did with The Boys, they put, they put the first. Rekka (16:32):That's what I'm thinking of. Kaelyn (16:32):The first three out and then staggered the rest of them. Rekka (16:34):Yeah. So that's, that's how we started. Hilary Bisenieks (16:37):Yeah. Rekka (16:37):Um, and if you do three or four episodes, you're going to really know what it's like to edit in a crunch. You might know at the end of them, whether it's the thing you really want to do. Hilary Bisenieks (16:48):Yeah. I had a situation when I started the show that I recorded my first three episodes, uh, before I released anything, but I recorded them, just the schedules ended up working out, that I recorded them in reverse release order so that, thankfully, my most polished episode where I like had the best idea of what I was doing was the one that came out first. And then there was, I won't say like a dip in quality, I think there, like I still stand by all those episodes, but there's a dip in self-assurance that happens as you listen across the first three episodes where by the time I was recording with, uh, Sarah Gailey, I was like, "Oh yeah, I know exactly how to podcast for this format at this point." And when you get to the episode I did with RK Duncan, who like, you know, I say right up front, like, "this is the first time I'm doing this. This is going to be a hot mess." Hilary Bisenieks (17:52):And like, luckily, like in that case, I've known... Like me and Robin have been friends for 25 years. So it wasn't like a huge deal that it was a hot mess because we could just like, you know, jive off of each other, but it really helped to have that idea of like, "Oh, this is actually how you do a podcast" by the time I started recording more episodes and banking episodes out. And certainly by the time I started recording with people who I didn't have an established relationship with. Rekka (18:32):So to that point, do you, um, do you feel like you have a format, like a, uh, you know, a template that you go into every episode with, where you basically know how you're going to intro, you know how you're going to start the conversation, you know roughly how you're going to segue into the story and then how you're going to lead out again? Hilary Bisenieks (18:53):Absolutely. Uh, I, and that's something that I, you know, had to pick up over these first three episodes. I had sort of an idea when I started, before I recorded the first episode where I was like, "this is what I think the flow is going to be." And it turned out that that worked pretty well. And so since then, like when I do episode prep with people before they start recording, it's just, "okay, here's the format if you hadn't, haven't had a chance to listen to the show," you know, obviously I'd love for everybody to go listen to Tales from the Trunk, available wherever fine podcasts are sold. But I recognize that there's only so many podcasts hours in a day. Rekka (19:34):Yeah. You're lucky Hilary, you, you gave yourself a theme for your podcast that is really wide open. You could talk about anything because you have a guest and your guest has a story. So first you get to just have a conversation with your guest and then your guest reads you a story and that, and those two things don't have to relate. You don't have to organize things. Do you, um, do you plan your, your conversations out ahead of time? I mean, it is kind of an interview format, but do you just kind of start with one question and see where it goes? Hilary Bisenieks (20:02):Basically start with one question and see where it goes. There are times where I have specific questions that I want to ask. And, um, when I have those, I will, when I, when I invite a guest on, I send them a recording ReadMe to tell them how my recording workflow works and what their part is in that. And I send them a questionnaire that gets basic information, you know, how would you like to be credited? What name should I address you by during the show? What are your pronouns? Uh, are there any topics that I should absolutely avoid? What's the name of your story? Um, and then just like a bunch of, "I might ask these." Uh, the only question I always ask— only two questions I always ask. One is, you know, "why did you trunk this thing?" And two is, I always try to trick my guests into giving me some words of wisdom by the end of the show. Kaelyn (21:10):Excellent. We know what to do now. Hilary Bisenieks (21:13):Normally I, I asked them, I frame it as, uh, "the TARDIS has showed up in my podcasting studio and come take a step inside this time machine with me, let's go back and talk to [young writer guest] about what you wish you would've known." Kaelyn (21:30):Yeah. Yeah. So if you're at home right now, you've been stuck inside for months and you're thinking, you know what? I think it's time to start a podcast. The other question is, do you have time for this? This is, you know, this is a lot of time, but then also beyond that, are you good at talking about things? Um, if you're going to be doing this by yourself, can you talk in an engaging way for, you know, 30 minutes to an hour? If you're doing this with someone else, are you friendly enough that you can talk to them for thir—? And if you're interviewing somebody, are you good at interviewing people? Um, which I think we, you know, say like, Oh, whatever, I'm just going to ask them questions. That's not, you know, that's not how this works. And— Hilary Bisenieks (22:15):That's not an interview. Kaelyn (22:15):Yeah. And, well also Hilary, I'm sure you've, you've come across this plenty of times is that, you know, some people aren't great at being interviewed and it's the, the job to kind of make them comfortable and get them to, you know, open up and talk. Hilary Bisenieks (22:28):Yeah. I went to college for creative writing. And so I took a lot of creative writing classes, both in fiction and in nonfiction, basically all of the, like long-form journalism classes that were offered at my school. Kaelyn (22:44):Oh fun. Hilary Bisenieks (22:44):From a professor who was not a full-time professor, her first job is being a journalist. And so she was able to like really talk us through it. And like one of our first assignments was an interview where the whole thing was just doing "Q, whatever," "A, whatever." That doesn't make it engaging interview piece. And so learning about the narrative structure of interviews, I think really helped me there. And just generally, like, I'm, I'm an introverted person, but I can turn on the extrovert, you know. But one of my goals for the show was just to be like a very quiet kind, queer place to be, and like bri— myself, bringing that energy makes it, I think, easier for my guests to come on and like open up about things. And I'm never like, you know, pushing, like, "tell me about your childhood," but just like, you know, "tell me about this story. Like, let's dig in a little bit like that." Rekka (23:58):When you are listening to the author, reading their work, your like acoustic feedback is so just like gentle and kind and wonderful. It's like, you'll just hear— um, Kaelyn, I don't know if you've listened to an episode yet, but you'll hear Hilary just go, "Ooh," as someone's reading. And to get that kind of feedback is really nice. And I'm sure that adds to that like friendly, Like I'm not just here on a stage reading this thing out with a spotlight on my face. I can't see anybody. Like, I'm actually sharing this with somebody. Kaelyn (24:25):But that's a really good point again with, you know, should you start a podcast or, you know, is this a good idea to? You have to understand this is an audio medium. Um, if you are, and it's funny listening to Tales from the Trunk, I dare say that Hilary, and stop me if I'm about to put my foot in my mouth here, there's a little bit of acting, if you will? Hilary Bisenieks (24:47):Oh yeah. Kaelyn (24:47):Maybe some over exaggeration, you know, things that you maybe wouldn't vocalize because you need to vocalize, because this is an audio medium. They can't see the expressions you're making on your face. So whatever you're thinking, you've got to get out of your mouth somehow without interrupting. Hilary Bisenieks (25:03):Yes. And I am nodding along as you're saying this, but. Kaelyn (25:08):In our audio medium. Hilary Bisenieks (25:08):And that's only for the benefit of you two. Rekka (25:11):I'm just going to add to the list of things to consider when you are trying to decide if you are going to start a podcast. Um, and sadly we know if you are already asking yourself this question, you're probably going to try it anyway. Hilary Bisenieks (25:23):Oh yeah. Rekka (25:23):But, um, well, the one thing to consider is what do you hope to gain from doing this podcast? Because, um, if you are a writer and you are hoping to reach a wider audience of readers, you're going to create a much different podcast than you would if you were someone trying to help other writers, you know, improve their craft, or get a foot in the door with publishing or whatever you're doing, those are two very different targets. And if you write, if you, um, if you create a podcast for writers, then that's great, It's going to help some, you know, you'll probably network and make friends or something like that. You can mention it, you know, you'll go to conventions and conferences and you'll meet people and hit it off and invite them on and you'll have guests to interview, but you're not going to increase book sales. Hilary Bisenieks (26:18):Yeah. Rekka (26:18):Even if you were, um, making a podcast to specifically about your writing and your books, you're probably not going to increase book sales, right? So, keep that in mind. Kaelyn (26:28):Yeah, because if you're podcasting about your writing and your books, presumably you're a bestseller of some kind, and there is an audience that is very interested in hearing your process. So that's more of a "first sell lots of books then podcast about it," not the other way around. Rekka (26:45):And chances are, if you're selling lots of books, you are also expected by your publisher to write a lot more of them. So now you're on deadlines and you don't actually have time to edit your own episodes. And like, maybe, maybe consider how this works a little bit. Now, there are people out there who write, um, and like podcast about it in a blog format where it's, um— Like Mur Lafferty's I should be writing for example, which is a very long running podcast is very popular and is literally Mur, usually in a car, um, saying like, "well, I was frustrated today and you know, like it wasn't flowing" or, um, "I really wanted to work on this thing, but I have a deadline for this other thing. And I can't tell you about it because it's under contract." So like, you know, there's the, um, the thing that you get out of like that podcast, for example, or that I get out of it is just this, like, I'm not alone in doing it. And, um, and the purpose of like another podcast might be like more performance, an audio drama. You know, somebody actually writes a story and performs it over a series of episodes. And then they have seasons and each season is either a new story or seasons like TV shows. And, um, if you can find an audience for that, then that actually might help your writing. But, um, keep in mind what you want to be the end result of this. If you just want to chat with a friend and you're like, "we say really smart things, we should record this" then like that's also an option, but what what's it, if its intent is just to be a little like self-gratifying, then that's also fine. As long as you know that when you start off. Hilary Bisenieks (28:25):I will say it's a lot of work to just be self gratified. I could not do this if that was my only goal. I love, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love making my show. And I love, like I've, it's opened doors for me in terms of like meeting new people and getting to the, on other podcasts like here and I was on an episode, um, uh, I think a Patreon-exclusive episode currently, of Rank and Vile, but, uh, like it's so much work to do upon. I'm not doing it just to like stroke my ego. Kaelyn (29:07):I would go so far as to say that it is in some ways, very similar to writing a book. Um, it's something that everybody thinks, "Oh, whatever, that's easy. I can just do that. I have lots of ideas. I have lots of stuff I need to say." And then when it comes down to actually doing it, you know, like, they're like, if you go back and listen to some of the early episodes bracket and I did, they're not bad, but they're not, the conversation is not as smooth as it gets in later episodes because, you know, we do this together, obviously. Now, if this were just me on my own, I, like, I, it would just be like me getting some words out and then crying a little bit and then, and starting again. Um, but I think everybody, there's certain things that everyone's like, well, "that's easy. I can do that." Kaelyn (29:56):Um, writing a book and starting a podcast are definitely the, uh, at the top of that list. Neither of them are easy things to do. Neither of them are straightforward processes and there are a lot more steps in there than you ever think there are going to be. Rekka (30:10):And let's be real doing one doesn't necessarily benefit the process of doing the other. Kaelyn (30:15):And by the way, doing one doesn't mean that you're going to be good at doing the other. Um, you know, just because you write a book and maybe let's say you've even had that book published, that doesn't mean that you're going to be good at doing a podcast about writing that doesn't even mean that you should do a podcast about writing. Rekka (30:32):I feel called out. Hilary Bisenieks (30:37):I don't have a book out. I'm fine. Kaelyn (30:41):It's a lot of work and it is not as easy as it seems just to, not even in terms of the work itself, but in terms of like coming up with meaningful things to talk about on a consistent basis, um, you know, even like with us, like we do a different topic every week and what happens is we tend to, you know, go in spurts where we come up with a whole bunch of ideas at once. And then we were like, okay, "'we've got to sit down and come up with the next group of ideas and plan and plan this out. Um, you know, Hilary I'm sure for you, it's, you know, it's a week to week, well month to month, of trying to find people to come on to talk to? Hilary Bisenieks (31:22):I will say it was last year. And I think partly through the networking that I've done and partly through just like gaining some recognition, uh, it's become a lot less of that. Uh, at, at the start of this year, I think I had, uh, like half of my guests already booked before I started recording my season two. And at this point I have a quarter of my guests for season three booked already. Kaelyn (31:57):Oh okay yeah, so you're in really good shape. Hilary Bisenieks (32:01):A lot of that is that it's harder, when you're working with a, with a rotating cast, to pin people down that like initially... Uh, exclusive sneak preview my January, I guess it's going to be Fran Wilde. And initially Fran was going to be on in June, but then deadlines and pandemic and everything just stacked up and we couldn't make it happen. Kaelyn (32:29):Yep. Hilary Bisenieks (32:29):So, you know, I was, I, uh, very quickly turned around and got Merc Wolfmoor on the for June. And I was able to like take that up, but only because I had planned ahead far enough to say, like, you know, I'm, I'm recording this weekend for the November episode and that's about as close as I ever liked. Kaelyn (32:56):Hmm that's yeah, that's, that's fairly close. Cause you know, it's November and everything. Hilary Bisenieks (33:03):I will have Westman two weeks after recording to get the episode together. To peek behind the curtain. I'm typically finishing the episode up with less than a week ago before release, but that's just editing. That's just, I have to sit down and pound out two to three hours of editing, as opposed to, I have to pin somebody down for an hour and a half reporting session, make sure that our schedules can line up, which especially like I live in California. A lot of my guests do not live in California. If you don't live in the same time zone as me. It's going to get more and more hairy. And so like figuring out that sort of stuff makes it a lot harder and makes it, uh, you know, it's a real commitment and especially, you know, you guys do it on a weekly basis. I do my episodes on a monthly basis. Like that consistency is something that I think is really key. Kaelyn (34:10):Yeah. Rekka and I did, last year, we did Submissions September. Rekka (34:15):Oh God, yes. Kaelyn (34:15):...and both of us had like... Rekka (34:18):Regrets. Hilary Bisenieks (34:18):Oh no. Kaelyn (34:20):It was like, what did we end up with, like nine episodes? Rekka (34:23):Nine. Nine episodes in September. Kaelyn (34:24):Yeah. We ended up with nine episodes. Rekka (34:27):That was too many episodes. By the way. Hilary Bisenieks (34:28):That's a lot of episodes. Kaelyn (34:29):In 30 days. It was, it was a lot, um, some of them were a little shorter than was typical, but, you know, we decided like it, and again, this is just, this is another thing if you're going to start a podcast. It is a many-headed Hydra and— Rekka (34:44):Just be aware of alliteration when you come up with these things that like, we're going to do Submissions September and Artwork August, you know, what that means is you're going to have to come up with multiple episodes on the same topic and have them ready to go in the same month. And if you need guests, you need to be able to schedule them to fall so that you can publish their episodes where it feels appropriate to slip that episode in. And sometimes it just doesn't go your way. Kaelyn (35:11):And then on top of this is the work that goes into actual it to the episode before you actually record it. Um, you know, depending on the topic, like I may end up doing several hours of research and, um, even just sitting down, gathering my thoughts before we, before we start talking about things. Um, it's, you know, if I'm, if I'm going to state anything in any sort of a definitive way, I'm to make sure that what I'm stating is correct. So again, you know, depending on if you're thinking of doing this and what you're thinking, the, the topics or the, uh, you know, the theme of this might be, you need to factor into, you know, you don't always just get to sit down and start talking into a microphone and it's, it's going to win a Grammy. Hilary Bisenieks (35:55):Well I don't know about you, I get to sit down and talk into a microphone for an hour and a half. It just works out. Kaelyn (36:00):But think of all the work that goes into even, you know, yours beforehand, like yes, it's interviews, but all the time that you have to work on scheduling that, uh, getting in touch with people. Also, I assume that you've researched your guests before they come on. Now, granted, it sounds like you know a lot, a lot of them, but like at the same time, you know, if somebody you don't really know is introduced to, to you, you're going to spend time, you know, doing some research on them, checking up on all their stuff. You also have to make sure that they're going to be someone that you want to have on your podcast and aren't just going to go off on tangents, you know, discussing the conspiracies of chemtrails that are gonna turn us all into lizards. Hilary Bisenieks (36:40):Thankfully, that hasn't happened yet. Kaelyn (36:42):You mean disappointingly that hasn't happened yet. Hilary Bisenieks (36:47):I'm leaving the option open that it could. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And like, you know, I, I downplay some of that, but like, you know, before I even started the show, I was making just a list of everybody I could think of who would be cool to have on the show and building out, I built out a spreadsheet that is like my pride and joy that has color changing checkboxes to let me track where in flight, every single episode is and has tabs to track—because I double booked one month then suddenly I was like, "Oh, I actually have to like, have something where I write down who's on which month and can check that box to say, okay, have a guest for this month so I don't double book." So one of the things I'll say for podcasting for the format that I do, it has been an immense joy to me, but kind of tying back to what we've talked about previously of figuring out why you're going to do this podcast. Hilary Bisenieks (37:58):Like, you know, I didn't start this podcast because I wanted to win a Hugo award for best fancast—I would love to win a Hugo award for best fancast, iIf you are Hugos Georg who lives in the mountain and whittles 50,000 Hugos a day, please get in touch with me, I'd love one of those. But like I do this podcast to connect with people like me first and foremost, and the response that I've gotten from the podcast over time, you know, like if you're just in it for watching numbers go up on a graph, like good luck with that. But it's not, it's a long game. Rekka (38:45):Yeah. Hilary Bisenieks (38:45):Uh, especially if you don't have name recognition, but if you're in it for like the moments of personal connection, when somebody finds your podcast and tweets at you and says, "I just stumbled on this podcast. And it's the most amazing thing for me," or, you know, you hear that one of your friends who had started listening to your podcast is talking about, like, "I think this is the best podcast for a working writer and you should absolutely be checking it out if you want to be a writer." Like those are, those are the things that have really made it worthwhile in the long term. Kaelyn (39:26):Yeah. The incredibly gratifying moments of this. Well, then I'm gonna finish this off with, with a question let's, let's get in that TARDIS and go back to to little— Rekka (39:40):I don't have my piano wire ready. I didn't know we were doing this. Kaelyn (39:45):So, you know, previous, younger, wiser, less, less jaded Hilary, you know, what would you have told yourself? Hilary Bisenieks (39:56):Oh gosh. Um, so from a process level, I would've said get a macro pad or a dedicated keyboard to make your editing flow easier. Uh, I edited the first like five episodes—I think I edited the whole first season—with like just constantly going back and forth between keyboard and mouse and having to remember a million different shortcuts. But because I was only putting out an episode a month, I didn't, they weren't sticking in muscle memory as quickly as some other things, but I have a macro tab now that just has like a knob that zooms in and out, and a dedicated save button, and dedicated buttons for all of the things I do regularly for the show. And just physically, that makes it a lot easier for me. The other thing I would have said is just like, be open, be open to what this is going to bring, because it's not ,like whatever you're expecting, it's not going to be that it's going to be it's whole own thing. Hilary Bisenieks (41:15):Like I, I set out to make a single season and that was, at partway through the season, I was like, "Oh, I think I can do this again. I think I can produce 12 more episodes." Here I am now, having produced almost because I started doubling up for the pandemic. But boy, I wasn't expecting to make the friends that I've made through doing this podcast that, um, you know, I wasn't expecting to actually meet like strangers to me during the podcast where like I have friends who said to me, "Hey, I think this person would be an amazing guest for you. Would you like me to link you up with them?" So just like being open that open to that and being open to it being as much about the process as about the product, but like I finish recording a podcast episode or I finish editing a podcast episode—I didn't think I would enjoy editing—but I finished recording or editing just like grinning ear to ear because, you know, for the last hour, hour and a half, I was just shooting the shit with a friend. Kaelyn (42:41):And you've made a thing out of it now. Hilary Bisenieks (42:43):Yeah. It's my schtick now, which is great. I didn't know that was going to be the thing. I was just like, "I want to have people come on and read their trunked stuff cause I think that that will be cool." And it's turned into this whole thing of like, it's a conversation where I get to like invite you into my recording studio and just like share this very, almost intimate conversation just between two friends for an hour. Rekka (43:16):That's part of the draw of it, I think is this, you hear other people's podcasts and they're having such a nice time just having a conversation. The one that comes to mind other than obviously the trunk cast is, um, David Tennant Does a Podcast With, which are, you know, the same sort of thing. David Tennant has a conversation with someone who is, might be an actor, might be a writer, you know, some kind of performer. And they kind of just talk about all sorts of stuff. And, um, it has that same intimate, you know, like they're having a phone call and we just happen to be able to hear it kind of thing. It's very cool. And I love that. I'm starting to like look for that now. And it's probably the loneliness of, you know, this isolated— Kaelyn (43:59):My favorite ones are the ones where I can tell that the people on it are actually friends and like each other and look forward to getting together to record these. Um, you know, I, I like that dynamic and I, like Rekka said, you know, I feel like I'm just getting to listen to some friends talk about something that is interesting to me. Hilary Bisenieks (44:22):Yeah. Yeah. I will say that one of my inspirations of like, yeah, I could do this was listening to Be The Serpent, it's just three friends goofin' for an hour. And like I started the show before the pandemic, but there was definitely an element for me of like, "Oh, they have like, that is like genuine friends doing a friendship," you know, in a performative way. Rekka (44:55):They have an outline, but they are definitely, yeah. Hilary Bisenieks (44:56):Yeah they have an outline, but like, it was still like, you know, "I want to have what they're having." Kaelyn (45:03):Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people that, you know, kind of get started in, in this because it's like, I'm getting to see all of these great things that I really like and want to be a part of in some way. So which, you know, hey, if you've got, you know, if you've got a good friend that you enjoy doing this with and want to, uh, you know, start, that's, that's like I said, those are my favorite podcasts to listen to. Rekka (45:28):But if you're forcing it, people will be able to hear that too. It'll be more work for you. It'll be, you know, laborious, to listen to. Kaelyn (45:35):It won't be enjoyable. Yeah. Final, final thoughts, everyone. Should she start a podcast? Rekka (45:41):Okay. I'm going to turn this around on you before we do final thoughts, Kaelyn, for the TARDIS, what would you tell yourself? Kaelyn (45:47):Oh God, Rekka (45:48):Because this is about all of us now, you know, like this is, this is a conversation about, we all ended up podcasting. How did that happen? And, um, you can be honest if you have regrets. Kaelyn (45:58):No, no, I certainly, I certainly don't have regrets. What I would tell myself is first, start having guests on earlier. Um, I think we got so excited with all of the stuff we wanted to talk about that we sort of neglected, you know, what I think has become some of our better, you know, well, not better, but best episodes with, uh, you know, when we have. Rekka (46:19):"Not better, but best" I like that. Kaelyn (46:19):Well no, like the, the fun ones where like, you know, we have a really nice conversation is, you know, where we've had, where we've had guests on. Um, I would also say, you know, there, there's a couple little things in like past episodes and of course you can look back on this and go, "Oh, that was wrong. That was wrong." Where, um, my, my regrets are primarily centered around myself and times that I thought I maybe wasn't conveying information as succinctly. In general, I would make someone else do this now, as was the original plan. No, I'm joking. I really enjoy this. I have a lot of fun getting talked to Rekka, uh, you know, and, um, especially when I used to get to go visit her, you know, before, uh, when people still used to travel places. Yeah. I think, I think most of my, my look-backs kind of stem from," I should have said this in this episode, or I should have explained this more clearly." Um, part of me would say, you know, go back and have more of a like succinct timeline of like start to finish here as was my original plan. But I think in some ways it's better to jump around a little bit, you know? So it's not like, "Hey, we did this initial run of this, and now we're like scrounging for, you know, other things to talk about." Like, I like that we kind of, you know, spread this out and it's not like a exact chronology of how, uh— Rekka (47:37):Yeah, like, sorry we already talked about agents. We can't go back. Now. This isn't an audio book where there was a chapter on agents and then middle of chapter 12, you're talking about agents again. Kaelyn (47:47):Yeah, yeah. Um, so Rekka, what, uh, what's in your TARDIS? Rekka (47:51):Well I have the privilege of, um, having already done two podcasts before this one. Kaelyn (47:57):Yeah. And to interrupt Rekka real quickly here. My list would be a lot longer if Rekka hadn't been involved in this because. Rekka (48:05):I got to learn a lot of mistakes for you. Kaelyn (48:06):Yeah. Rekka just shepherded me through this whole thing. And I was like, "maybe this" she's like, "yeah, I did that. And it made me start pulling my hair out. Let's not do that." Hilary Bisenieks (48:17):Oh no. Rekka (48:17):Yeah. Um, so in my first podcast, um, one, we recorded weekly and we recorded on Monday and it was up on Wednesday. Um, the only part of that, that I regret is just how constant the need to be like tuned into it was. Um, we did have an audio producer for that podcast, so somebody was editing it for us. Um, but then I learned that I needed to, uh, double check everything. Hilary Bisenieks (48:47):Oh no. Rekka (48:47):So somebody was editing and then I would be like, "ah, yeah, no, that's, um, that needs to be edited. Could you please take this out" where we are clearly saying this is going to get edited out? Like, you know, um, Hilary Bisenieks (49:00):Not in a jokey way. Rekka (49:00):Not in a jokey way. Um, so as I have learned many times in my life, if you want something done, right, do it yourself. Or if you want something done to your own standards, do it yourself. Which is not to say I haven't made mistakes or missed things that could have been edited out, but like, you know, nothing obvious, hopefully. Rekka (49:18):Um, and then, uh, so I would go, well, I did, with this one, we went biweekly and, um, we plan things out in advance. We had, um, generally a list of ideas and Kaelyn would come up basically for a weekend. So we'd get, you know, a batch of them ready, and then we'd edit them kind of one at a time to stay ahead of, uh, putting them out there. Uh, another thing that I regret not doing in my first podcast was, uh, providing transcripts for accessibility reasons and also search engine optimization. Once again, accessibility improves everyone's life. So, um, you get those keyword hits if you have every word that you said in your podcast available for a text reader to scan, um, in addition to the benefit it provides to humanity. So I'm very glad that we've been doing transcripts for this podcast. Rekka (50:10):And, um, I definitely definitely like that. And then a microphone set up for multiple people in one room. Yeah. We did a lot of experimenting with various microphones and, um, having to rerecord episodes a couple of times and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, there's always something to learn with the technology and it's never going to behave even when you think you've got it down. And, um, um, if you can podcast with a co-host that you can like go to have smoked barbecue, like do it, that's how I recommend doing it. It's definitely like my first podcast co-host was from Texas, but I never got barbecue as a result of being on that podcast. This podcast has gotten me much more pork belly and brisket. Kaelyn (50:50):And jars of bacon. Rekka (50:52):And bacon in jars. Yes. But, you know, like, did I think that podcasting was going to increase my readership? Um, I think I did think that originally. Um, but I, you know, obviously I've learned that, cause that was my point earlier is, you know, know what you think you're going to get out of it and know who you're talking to. So that would be something that I would have gone back and told baby Rekka, for sure. Kaelyn (51:22):So, all right. Then final thoughts here around the table. Should you start a podcast? Hilary Bisenieks (51:29):Maybe. Rekka (51:29):Maybe. Kaelyn (51:29):I was going to say maybe too. Rekka (51:31):I think that makes it a hundred percent accurate response. Kaelyn (51:34):Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Rekka (51:36):I mean, only you know. Kaelyn (51:38):Yeah. I would say maybe if you go into it with the expectation of, I'm not expecting too much of this and if it doesn't go anywhere, then it's a fun hobby. Rekka (51:47):Yeah. And then, so the next episode will be, "do you need three podcasts?" The co-host I mentioned that, um, was my co-host on Hybrid Author Podcast, uh, had five podcasts at the time and was recording a podcast episode every night, sometimes two a day, uh, to stay on top of that. So like when he, when he ran out of time to do one, he, it was, you know, he'd obviously run out of time to do all of them. So that was a very sudden collapse of his podcasting world and social life. Cause then, you know, you're not talking to your friends all the time. Oh. And I would say, go find a friend to do it with. It makes it a lot more fun. Kaelyn (52:20):I was going to say, I mean, when I podcast, I get to talk to my friends a lot. So, you know, that's, that's definitely a benefit for us. Rekka (52:28):And make new ones. Kaelyn (52:29):Yes. So speaking of new friends, Hilary, where can people find you online? Hilary Bisenieks (52:34):Uh, folks can find me on Twitter @hbbisenieks that's H B B I S E N I E K S, where I am. Kaelyn (52:45):We'll have that in the shownotes. Hilary Bisenieks (52:45):Perfect, where you will find me shitposting about a lot of different things. Um, sometimes it's technology, sometimes it's writing, lately for completely mysterious reasons, it's been Philadelphia, uh, and you can find my podcast Tales from the Trunk, wherever you buy fine podcasts. Uh, it should be available on all the major podcasting platforms. Uh, so, you know, do me a solid leave me a review, all that good stuff. Uh, you can also find my links to all my writing at hilarybisenieks.com Kaelyn (53:26):Great. Thanks so much. Well, thank you for coming on. We, you know, this was really great. Um, you know, it's, it's, uh, slightly off topic for writing and publishing podcast, but I think we just determined not really. Hilary Bisenieks (53:42):Mm-hmm. Completely on topic. Kaelyn (53:42):Yes. So, well, thank you. We really enjoyed talking to you and, uh, you know, definitely check out Tales from the Trunk. It's, um, if nothing else you get to hear a nice story. Rekka (53:51):Yeah. Hilary Bisenieks (53:51):Absolutely. Thank you so, so much again this was super fun. Kaelyn (53:55):Thank you, this was fun. Rekka (53:55):Thanks for coming on. Rekka (54:13):Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember, you can find us on Twitter at @WMBcast, same for Instagram, or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand. And what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 47: Let Us Tell You About Show Don't Tell (Our usual transcriptionist is taking a well-deserved break. Any drop in quality of today's transcript is totally our fault.) Rekka (00:00):Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of we make books, a show about writing publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:08):And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Rekka (00:11):And you know what you've done? You have shown us that you write science fiction and fantasy as RJ. Theodore, you have not just told us Rekka (00:18):Although today I did just tell you. Rekka (00:20):You did just tell me now, but I mean, the books exist. I've seen them. So you've shown us that, but you have also talked at length about different parts and aspects of how you've written these and things that have happened to you, therefore showing us that you wrote them. Rekka (00:34):Or did I just tell you all this stuff? I don't know. What does this rule mean anyway? Rekka (00:41):Yeah. So today we're, we're tackling another one of those,uthose weird, funny little notes that you get from,ueditors and people critiquing your work. And you'll see, "show me, don't tell me" and – Rekka (00:52):Really frustrating because everyone says it and assumes you know what they mean, but if you haven't really processed what it means, or you haven't managed to do it and have someone say, "yes, that's what I mean by show, don't tell," like you just feel a little bit lost. You feel like maybe you are falling behind in the class kind of thing. Like why does everyone know what this means? And I still don't understand? Rekka (01:16):It is difficult, but I think it's one of those things that once you kind of figure out, it's a lot easier to understand what the note means. What, you know, we're trying to get at here is describing something to the reader and making the sentence do a lot of– do work in more than one way is a lot more interesting to read than just a list of descriptions, actions, emotions, or feelings. Rekka (01:41):If you at least identify when you're doing it in the revisions that's going to go a long way to improving your relationship with beta readers and editors later. Rekka (01:51):And improving your relationship with your characters, because we're going to talk a lot about that in this episode too. So– Rekka (01:56):All right. So let's not tell you what the episode is. Rekka (01:59):Let's show you! Rekka (02:00):On the other side of the music. Kaelyn (02:17):In this case, we're here mostly just to tell people things. If we just record this while showing things to each other, it's not going to be very, Rekka (02:25):What we're showing is our competence with writing skills and techniques Kaelyn (02:30):Ah okay. Rekka (02:31):And demonstrating, Ooh, maybe that's it. Okay. I solved it. Don't call it. Show don't tell because that confuses people show, call it demonstrate don't elucidate. Rolls right off the tongue. Kaelyn (02:44):Oh goodness. That's going on a mug somewhere. So yeah, but today we're, we're talking about one of the other great notes that people frequently get back from editors and agents, which is "show me, don't tell me I, I will, I think this is not as quote-unquote unhelpful as, you know, "tighten your storylines, work on your character arcs," that kind of thing. Um. Rekka (03:12):But it's one of the ones that people get early on in their writing because it's supposed to be so helpful, but if you haven't come across it and you don't know how to identify why it's being pointed out in your work, like what the heck does it mean? Kaelyn (03:30):Yeah. So there's, you know, before we, before we get started in too deep into this, let's kind of define some of the areas that we're talking about here. And it's funny because Rekka and I were talking about doing this episode and we both came to this with kind of different approaches to the show. Don't tell me like, things that were important to Ned,uwhile doing some research, I kind of discovered that what Rekka and I both think is important. Most of the literary world doesn't think is as important. Rekka (03:57):Well, we are genre-focused. Kaelyn (04:00):Yeah. Exactly. Rekka (04:00):That just supports that. Kaelyn (04:02):Yeah. So I came into this with like one of my big pet show me, don't tell me a pet peeves is characters. Urecords is world-building and,I– Rekka (04:13):It's not even that it was that you said characters first. So I said, Oh, okay. But also "world building." It wasn't like, I was like, "No, world building first!" This wasn't like a showdown. Kaelyn (04:22):It's always a showdown. Rekka (04:22):It was a telldown. I'll show myself out. Kaelyn (04:28):All right. That's the podcast, everyone. We're done. Rekka (04:30):Like forever. She can't take it anymore. Kaelyn (04:34):Oh God. Okay. but it's funny because then when I was doing research on this and most of these "show me, don't tell me examples. And what everybody's talking about is more of writing and prose and style. So the point of all of it is nobody wants to be bombarded with facts and told "this is the way things are in this book" without actually experiencing it while reading it. One it's bad storytelling and two it's disorienting, Rekka (05:04):But if they're reading it, aren't they experiencing it? Kaelyn (05:07):Well, no, they're not because that's not experiencing it, that's just being read a list of facts and statements. Rekka (05:14):I know I'm playing devil's advocate in case you didn't tell. Kaelyn (05:18):I know. Um so why is this a problem? Rekka (05:23):Because you bore your reader, you don't engage them. You don't pull them through the book. Kaelyn (05:27):Yeah. This is one of those things that, and we rarely, you know, kind of come down to this it's bad writing. It's like, I mean, really, you know, we don't, we don't talk too much about like, you know, universally accepted things that are considered bad writing, but this is one of them because as Rekka said, it's boring, it is not engaging. It's not pulling the reader into the book. Anyone can sit here and rattle off a list of, you know, facts about like the, you know, the kitchen table that had sitting at right now, it was brown and round. Light brown with wood patterns on it. It was made of wood. And that's not really interesting. It distracts from the story. It doesn't paint a scene. It doesn't give you any indication of how the character is feeling or interacting, or considering how to act based on their surroundings or their thoughts. It's bad writing. And it's well, not always lazy, but oftentimes lazy. Rekka (06:30):But it's also not serving a purpose other than to describe the table. And if the table itself doesn't have anything to do with the tension you're trying to build in a scene or inform you what this character might be like, because you know, you're discussing the furnishings of their house, which describes the character. Maybe more than just saying the character can afford lots of nice furniture. You know. Kaelyn (06:58):The, every everything, well, the vast majority of what you write in your book should be serving two purposes. If a monster erupts out of the ground to try to eat our heroes and you have to stop the action and the story to describe the monster, that's serving two purposes. One, you want to describe the monster. You want to know what the heroes are about to fight against, but two, you want them to know how scary this monster is. So the words you use, you don't just say, "it looked like a centipede. It was purple. It had a lot of legs and weird green eyes with lots of facets on them. Venom was dripping off its fangs." Actually "venom was dripping off its fangs" is a good example of what, how to describe it. But instead of stating facts about it, what you should be doing instead is, you know, "the creature erupted out of the ground, spraying rock and sand everywhere. Once they cleared the dust from their eyes, they beheld the monster before them. It was a towering behemoth of," you know, and go on like that, because what you're doing is you're showing that the readers are, or excuse me, that the heroes are freed here. And then you also don't have to tell us that they're afraid. Rekka (08:09):I was just going to say well can't you sum it up and say the monster burst forth from the ground and scared the heroes? Kaelyn (08:14):Absolutely. If you don't want anyone to know what the monster looks like. Yeah. Rekka (08:19):Yeah. So you would use this to do both things, show that the person is scared and the reaction without having to say this is their reaction and do the thing that you'd really like to do, which is, I assume if you're creating a monster as you want to get into what the monster looks like and the creature design. Kaelyn (08:35):Yeah. So in this case you know, what we're kind of talking about here is the last thing I brought up, which is sort of like the style and prose and writing technique of, you know, making your sentences do extra work for you. You're describing the monster and then you're also establishing that it is threatening and our heroes are afraid of it to, you know, circle back to some of the other ones that Rekka and I came up with here. You know, well Rekka you know, had specifically said world-building. Rekka (09:05):Yeah, well, mostly because when you have a genre book, you've got some sort of aspect of the world that you've invented from whole cloth. And of course, you're very proud of that. And of course you want to talk about it. And this isn't to say, like, there's the whole iceberg theory thing, and I'm not going to go into that. That's not what I mean by this. But the idea that you want to keep the book interesting, which means you need to keep the motivation of the reader of wanting to find out what happens next. If you're just describing a setting in your world. Well, it doesn't matter what happens next. That setting is probably unaffected by the plot and the story. And the time you take away from keeping that reader in the story is detrimental to their, you know, their draw into the whole world. Rekka (10:01):So even though you think like, "Oh, my world is so cool. I have to get all this in here." Your reader cares less and less about the world when you keep interrupting the story to tell them about it. So just like Katelyn was saying, do two things with your sentences, you know, throw a little bit of your world building into an action. That's happening in the story. You know, passing the,uneon ice cream shop where all the ice cream was neon of course is what I mean. Not that it's painted neon. That's ridiculous. You know, so like build your world building in the same way that you're going to build your emotional reactions to things in and your physical descriptions of things. So in the sense, your first example kind of was world building. Ubut it was also emotional. And so your sentences need to do at least two things. So they can be emotion and world building or action and world building, or action and emotion, or character and world like, you know, mixing match. Don't just have nouns and verbs in the right order. Kaelyn (11:03):Yeah. So, and then my, my particular pet peeve with the show me don't tell me is is character related. I hate reading books, I hate getting submissions, where all I'm reading about is how a character is. So this and guys, this character, they are just, so This Thing, this, that they're, so This, that it's practically coming out of their ears. Everyone knows that they're, they're, This they're just the most This that there is. And then you see nothing in their actions, thoughts, or speech that would indicate that aside from the author and then usually other characters around them telling you this. Rekka (11:42):Reinforcing it in a very direct and obvious way. Kaelyn (11:45):Yeah. So it's that's, that's one of that is my big show me don't tell me pet peeve is,uif you know, you've got a guy who's supposed to be like the most brilliant, I don't know codebreaker in the entire world, but we don't actually see him break any codes and that's not part of the plot, why is that, you know, why do you need me to tell to know this? Why is that important here? And,uubut you know, there's, there's things that I think you get a little more and you see this a lot in,uyoung adult and teen novels where,uyou know, you want the cool kid, the shy kid, the goth kid, the, you know, where we get these sort of like emotional angles and none of them are actually then displayed in the writing of the character. Uso why... You know, apart from why is this important? Why, why is it bad writing? Rekka (12:45):Good writing is something that someone can enjoy. So if they're not enjoying it– you know, like, okay, across the board, not everyone is going to enjoy every story, but there are things you can do to increase your chances that someone's going to enjoy the story. And one of those things is to control, for example, the pacing and the immersion of the reader in the world. And when you tell someone something, rather than show it to them, you're kind of saying, "No, no, no, no, just trust me on this," without providing the proof. Exactly. And so it's hard for a person to sink into that world and enjoy it if they're constantly thinking, "Well, okay, you say that, but where I, like, what does that mean to this character? Or what does that, how is that going to impact the story or anything like that?" Kaelyn (13:36):Yeah. And I think that where this comes from a lot is this, especially, you know, in genre fiction, like, you know, Rebecca and I work in is "I've come up with this really cool thing, and I need everybody to know all about it. I need them to know about how awesome this world is or how scary this monster is or how cool and bad-ass my main character is." Rekka (14:00):Well we do want to know these things. Kaelyn (14:02):Yes, absolutely. But "if I tell them over and over again, they'll get it," and that is not how you get a reader to internalize things, readers, internalize things by the actions of the characters or the interaction with the world around them. Rekka (14:18):Do you think this is kind of, and I hate this phrase, is this just like a "rookie mistake" where they know they need to convince somebody of this, or they know they need to include this. They just don't know how to go about doing it properly? Kaelyn (14:30):Yeah. And I think it is. I think it's something that you see a lot with new and emerging writers, where you've just got all of these amazing ideas coming out of your ears and you've just, you know, gotta gather them all up and get them on a page. And so what it turns into is just, you know, a list of reasons why this thing is how you say it is rather than seeing people you know, either display those characteristics or seeing the world, or even just the way that you're writing. So a lot of times, you know, as we said, when you, you're going to get into, if you Google, you know, "show me, don't tell me" it's going to be pages and pages of you know, examples and literature and all of these famous quotes and stuff about it. But it goes beyond just style and the ability and the way that you write. Within the story itself, you can't, you know, make a character a certain way by having everyone else around them insist they are that way, but them showing no signs of that whatsoever. Rekka (15:41):So I'm going to give an example with Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol, because when you think about Scrooge, you tend to think like, "Oh, well he's a cheapskate." I mean, the name is synonymous with cheapskate. This is a thing Dickens did. He made stuff pretty clear just by the way he named people. His story is about his character arc. You think about it, and you're like, "yeah, no, people are pretty clear that Ebenezer's really awful." And you can say "Ebenezer's is really awful," if you were writing the story or you can describe him as "the cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shriveled, his cheek, stiffened, his gait made his eyes red, his thin lips blue and spoke out shrewdly in his grading voice." Like– Kaelyn (16:27):Yeah, that's good writing that. Rekka (16:29):Yeah. And I'm not a huge Dickens fan. He got paid by the word. And so he did go on, but like he was described, he described Scrooge as "a squeezing wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching covetous, old sinner." Like these are descriptive things but they're adding so much. Right? And then not only that, but the character behaves in such a manner. You're not just told this, but he says, you know, when people come to him and this is what you're saying about like the character supporting like, "Oh, just saying, Oh, you're an old miser, Scrooge," no people come to him looking for charitable handouts for the holidays. As, you know, as being established as, as good and wholesome and Scrooge says, "are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" Like, he has an argument with people that shows how you might expect a person to behave and how this person is behaving in contradiction to that. And so it's just like a really, Kaelyn (17:34):No, that's. Rekka (17:34):It's rich. Like the way that, you know, this is, this is seven layers of Scrooge-ness that you get out of these, these, these words that are chosen. And so like in some ways it's good that he was paid by the word. Kaelyn (17:46):Most people in the English speaking world, even if they haven't read a Christmas Carol or seen one of the movies, which by the way, the Muppet version of it is, is the best one. Michael Kane, as Scrooge, there should be no other Scrooges ever. Rekka (18:01):Certainly not Jim Carey. Kaelyn (18:03):Most people know when somebody says like, Oh God, he's a Scrooge. Or, you know, like call you Scrooge. They, Rekka (18:11):It's an idiom now. Kaelyn (18:11):Yes, exactly. Because this was so effective in the writing. So that's a really, really good example of why this is important. Going back to, you know, like new writers and just wanting to get this stuff out there. I just think that information dumps, this insisting upon– the characters that insist upon themselves, is really distracting from the story. Rekka (18:37):Because you can feel it's the writer doing the insisting. Kaelyn (18:40):Yes. It makes you not like the characters. And I'm not saying every character in your book needs to be loved and cheered for, but you usually need at least one to love and cheer for or everyone's going to have a really hard time getting through the book. Rekka (18:53):Yeah. And I'm dealing with that in some of the TV shows I'm watching right now. There are so many important characters, but you at least understand their motivations, even if you don't like them or want to spend any time in their presence. Kaelyn (19:06):Did you just finished The Boys, Rekka? Rekka (19:08):I might have, yes. There's no one left to root for almost. But the, the idea of you insisting, "Mary Sue–" Kaelyn (19:20):Yeah, let's lean in here. Rekka (19:20):"Was So beautiful. Everyone loved her and she looked great in everything she wore." That's, that's great, but I'm not getting anything out of that. Kaelyn (19:32):Well, also, do you see what just happened there? You're not developing a character. You're giving me a list of qualities and traits about them. Rekka (19:41):This is like a job application. Kaelyn (19:43):Yeah, exactly. Let's use Bella from the Twilight series. Rekka (19:49):I think she's a prime example of this. Kaelyn (19:51):Yes. So you know, for those of you who have not read this or have not seen the movies and I, dear God, Kirsten Stewart Um so one of the really common critiques of the Twilight books apart from, you know, like apart from the "dear God, why?" Was, you know, on, a literary level that Bella is an empty vessel and there's debate as to whether or not this was the intention of the author, you know, that she'd just come off as like a very plain uninteresting character with very little personality to speak of, so that young girls reading this could, you know, easily put themselves into, you know, relate to her and say, "I am just like Bella." But what is really infuriating about this character and full disclosure—I have read all of these books. I haven't read the most recent one because why would I, at this point Um one of the things that, you know, a lot of people pointed out about this that is a legitimate critique of Twilight apart from the fact that these are vampires that don't catch fire the sun, but that's fine. It's, it's fine. We don't actually see Bella do too much that would establish her personality. If you took out the fact that this is written from her perspective. And even despite the fact that it's written from her perspective, there isn't a whole lot going on with this girl. She doesn't have a whole ton of defining characteristics other than the fact that she's in love with a vampire. That is her entire personality. We're told things like she's very smart, she's very accident prone. She's very you know, she's a hard worker. Kaelyn (21:38):She's really loyal. The loyalty one, maybe we see a little bit, but I'm not sure if it's loyalty or obsession. One of the running jokes through the whole book is how accident prone she is. I, I could not come up with anything other than sometimes she bumps into people in the hallway there, so this is a good example of, you know, show me, don't tell me where and granted, here's the thing: this may have been deliberate on the part of the author, even though I said, I haven't read the newest one. So,ushe re-wrote the first book from the perspective of the shiny vampire boyfriend. Okay. Uso you're getting everything from his angle and you know what, for the sake of this podcast now, I think I'm going to have to go read this book because it would be very interesting to see Bella from outside Bella, and whether or not she seems to have a personality. And I think that's exactly what this book is. So now.. Dammit, Now I've gotta go read this book. Rekka (22:41):Well you don't HAVE to. Kaelyn (22:43):No. I have to, for the sake of science. Bella, I think is a good example of in terms of characters, "show me, don't tell me" because we just keep hearing all this stuff about her without ever actually seeing her be anything except pretty much completely passive aside from acting dramatically and irrationally when it comes to Shiny Vampire Boyfriend. Rekka (23:05):And you say, this is an effective tool to rope in a certain kind of reader. But it seems to me that if you write a compelling character, you're going to rope in a reader of any type. Kaelyn (23:18):I would hope so because here's the thing, there were, she was surrounded by compelling characters, everything around her was far more interesting than she was. Rekka (23:26):And it was just rubbing off on her, was that the idea? Kaelyn (23:29):I GUESS. You know, like I didn't, I remember talking about this with someone and they were like, "I don't understand why, you know, girls, like all of these young girls love this book so much. Like, I mean the main character is like so boring." And I said, "they're not reading it for her, the reading it for the love triangle, the reading it for Hot Werewolf Guy and Shiny Vampire Boy." Rekka (23:49):Yeah. Kaelyn (23:49):Um Bella's just a vessel to carry that story along in all of this. Rekka (23:56):It just seems like it could also be done effectively with someone who is not an empty vessel. Kaelyn (24:00):Absolutely. And that's the better story. Rekka (24:04):Okay. So getting back to the "show, don't tell," don't don't take too much to heart from the gobs and gobs of money that the Twilight series has made. Please. We would hate for you to go down that dark and disturbing path. Kaelyn (24:16):–To Make a lot of money off– Rekka (24:19):Look, if, if that's what you enjoy reading and that's how you liked your characters... I guess? Kaelyn (24:23):Hey, you know what, look, everybody like knocked Twilight for a lot of stuff. If that's just something you enjoy sitting down and reading and kind of, you know, mindlessly, or in a very engaged way, going through. Awesome. That's great. But Bella is a good example of characters that we were told about rather than shown. Rekka (24:42):Okay. So getting back to the, the origins of this, when it's handed out as advice and who's handing it out as advice and where does it come from? Where's it supposed to take you and how do you want a new writer to interpret the phrase? Kaelyn (25:02):So if I tell somebody, I never just put, you know, highlight something and say, "show don't tell me," I always put a note next to there saying like, "Hey instead of you telling me about how, you know, sharp, this sword is, have the character pick it up and slice something in half." That's way more interesting than, you know, just staring at this sword and describing it in great detail. Rekka (25:27):Although a little irresponsible. Kaelyn (25:28):Well, it depends what you're slicing in half. You know, if there was a watermelon that you were about to eat anyway, then sure. You know, Rekka (25:34):Yeah but the sword doesn't deserve to be used as cutlery! Kaelyn (25:38):Depends on the sword. Rekka (25:39):Okay. So two characters arguing over whether or not they can use the sword to cut the watermelon. "I'm Not saying it won't cut the watermelon. I'm saying that's not an appropriate use of our family's sacred sword." Rekka (25:49):"And I'm saying that we all want the watermelon. I see nothing else around except the family sacred sword. Don't you think your family would want us to have the watermelon?" Rekka (25:56):"And we'll wash it right away. We'll hang it back on the wall over the hearth. Everyone will just think we polished it. It'll look better. Everyone will be happy." Kaelyn (26:03):And then we get watermelon. Rekka (26:04):And then later, monsters attack and the edge of the sword is dull because you cut the watermelon with it and everybody dies, the end. Kaelyn (26:10):Oh. Very good Rekka. Very good. Yeah. So when I highlight these things, what I'm trying to communicate to the reader really at the core of it is either one, you were slowing down the story or two, you're missing an opportunity to contribute something to the story. Be it, you know, establishing of piece of information we didn't know before, giving the characters a chance to kind of show their feelings or their emotions a little bit you know, having an action rather than a description. The author who wrote Fight Club– Rekka (26:47):Palahniuk. Kaelyn (26:48):There you go. Chuck Palahniuk. I remember reading something that he wrote and I actually, I did go and look it up before this, and he, to remember doing exactly he said. But he doesn't like what he calls Thought Verbs thinks knows, understands, wants desires. What he's saying instead is make sure you have an Action Word in there. Kaelyn (27:14):And by that, like, instead of saying like, you know, "understands," describe what they're understanding. They smelled something and it triggered a memory and they remembered this. They, you know, reach their hand out in the dark and touch something and realized it was the centipede monster from earlier in the story. It ate both of those heroes and unow it's hiding in the dark. Rekka (27:38):He's back. Kaelyn (27:39):Yeah. He's back, the centipede monster's here forever. So, sensory and action details are a good way to avoid telling people about it because what you're doing then is you're making the character experience something and you're making them relate things to you and have to describe it. You can't just say "Rekka smelled something," you need to say, "Rekka smelled something foul. It made her nervous. It reeked of death." Because now what you're doing is you're describing what Rekka smelled. You're giving us a sense of her emotional state. And you're implying that there is probably a dead body somewhere. Rekka (28:14):Right. Kaelyn (28:15):So you're setting up the scene. Rekka (28:17):And I did find the Lit Reactor article that you're talking about with Chuck Palahniuk's words. And so "instead of characters knowing anything, present details that allow the reader to know those things" is kind of how he phrases it. So instead of a character wanting something, you have to describe the thing so that the reader wants it. In the sense of Twilight, you're putting the character in that main character's shoes, except you're not doing it by making those shoes empty for the reader to step into. You're actually tying them onto the reader's feet yourself. Kaelyn (28:50):Okay. That's– There you go. Yeah. And that's exactly what it is, is it's immersive. Every story is told from something's perspective, be it, you know, a super advanced alien life form or a somehow borderline sentient rock. They're both still experiencing things. Now they're experiencing them very differently, but that's your job to communicate in the book, and just telling us what they're experiencing is not immersing the reader. If you're a rock on Mars, just sitting there going "wow, I'm just this rock of Mars. It's really red and dusty here." Rekka (29:23):See, I thought you were going for Sylvester and the Magic Pebble when you talked about being a rock. Kaelyn (29:27):Oh, that's a good book. Rekka (29:28):That's an excellent book. Kaelyn (29:30):Scared me when I was a kid. Rekka (29:31):Scared you, really? Kaelyn (29:32):I don't know. It's just like, so for those of you who haven't read Sylvester and the Magic Pebble, first of all, go, go read that. But it's a story of a donkey who finds a magic pebble. Rekka (29:43):I think his parents give it to him. Don't they? Kaelyn (29:45):I thought he found it in a Creek and if he holds it and he realizes he can make a wish and the wish will come true. And he's being attacked by a lion at one point, and I'm not sure geographically where takes place. Rekka (30:00):It was Oatsdale, of course. Kaelyn (30:01):He's being attacked by a lion and wishes that he were a rock because the lion won't attack a rock. Except then he realizes he's dropped the pebble and he's not holding it anymore and he can't wish himself to be back from being a rock. Yeah. And he stays a rock for a really long time. Rekka (30:17):Well, that's what I'm saying, this is the point of view of a rock. Kaelyn (30:20):Yeah. But no, it's actually really sad because his parents think like he's dead and like go, you know, search for him forever. And like, they keep like standing on top of him to like search for him and sitting on him and crying about him. And it's, it's a really weird children's book. You know, so if you're, you know, as I said, the rock on Mars and you know, it's still dull, dull, boring life. And then all of a sudden robot shows up your prose and your sensory words and your, you know, way that you're experiencing, and the things that you're seeing obviously have to change in order to communicate the excitement of the rock, because "Hey, robot!" Rekka (30:58):Which you can't call to or wave to, or walk over to, or offer ice cream to. Kaelyn (31:03):Maybe it's going to pick you up to study you. Rekka (31:07):If you're lucky. Kaelyn (31:07):Yeah. And then what if, you know, you start to fall in love with the robot, but it turns out that it's not actually the robot because it's a bunch of people in NASA controlling the robot, but you don't know that. Rekka (31:16):I don't know, the robot's got algorithms. Kaelyn (31:19):Yeah. That's true. How do you fix this? How do you avoid falling into this trap? Rekka, have you ever had to kind of reconcile with this? Rekka (31:29):I was just thinking like, I wish I'd grabbed the notes, but Ryan Kelley, my editor at Parvus, when we were working on Salvage, one of the things he did was point out a few areas,uwith the one character Emeranth where some opportunities were there that I had missed to make her as clever and as caring and as smart as she could have been. And so his suggestion was something along the lines of like, "this is a great opportunity to show her doing the governing that she's forced into" and that sort of thing. Kaelyn (32:00):Yeah. That is something that I frequently make notes of is it's not even, you know, with the writers at this point that I'm getting bored, it's that you're missing an opportunity to have this person do something and, you know, be the bad-ass that you're saying they are. Be the clever person that you're saying they are, the great leader, the great fighter, the coward, you know, any, any number of these things Rekka (32:23):He said when he was pointing out a spot that needed showing, not telling he wasn't saying "show don't tell" waggling a finger and then moving on like, "Oh, my job is done. What a good editor I am." He was saying, "I would suggest that you use this to build this character into the character you say they are." And now Emeranth's scenes make me get all, like we be in shivery on the regular. So... Kaelyn (32:49):"Show don't tell" helps develop, you know, whether it be like your world building, your character, or just even your writing technique, it's going to give you a more rich style. You know, like at the most basic level you don't say you know, "Stephanie was a selfish immature entitled girl." You write a scene where Stephanie's throwing a fit because everybody forgot to throw a surprise party for her dog's half birthday. Rekka (33:20):So we talk about this broadly, we've talked about children's books, we've talked about movies, we've talked about YA books and all kinds of stuff, but are there genres in which this applies less or more like, are there expectations of like, "yeah, no, I actually just want you to get out of my way with this character and let me use them as an avatar for myself in this story." Kaelyn (33:46):I don't know if there are, genres where it's acceptable. I'll be honest with you. This is something that I think is pretty universally frowned on. This is one of the few sort of constants. You know, that said, anytime you're writing something, there's going to be instances where you have no choice but to do a little bit of quote-unquote telling you know, be it because maybe it's a really fast-paced scene and you want to keep the reader engaged and you want to keep the action going. So it's, "he parried left. She swiped, right. He ducked, she dodged they've rolled on the ground," you know, like you're. Rekka (34:20):But that's action. Kaelyn (34:21):Exactly. Yeah. Rekka (34:22):It's engaging. And if we're using Chuck Palahniuk's example, like that's exactly where you want to be, is more in the physical. So if you are telling and, but it's action beats, would you say that's better than telling in thought beats? Kaelyn (34:38):Absolutely. Yeah. Rekka (34:39):Okay. So then my question is, what role in this conversation specifically, would you say adverbs play? Kaelyn (34:49):Ooh. Rekka (34:49):I feel like there's some bleed in, you know, between the two. Kaelyn (34:52):I think adverbs are, like any other thing in life, good in moderation. You know, there's again, and this is another thing that there's a lot of people with very strong opinions about there, about– Rekka (35:05):Never ever ever use adverbs. Kaelyn (35:07):Yeah. That's impossible. Rekka (35:09):Right. Kaelyn (35:09):It's simply, it's simply, it's like not ending your sentences with a preposition, it's like just not the way the English language works. So what Rekka's referring to here is, you know, some editors and, you know, people who get all stuffed up about this stuff. Will say, I don't want to see you write "'Oh, you'll see,' Rekka said slyly.'" I want to hear "Rekka closed the laptop and turned to me with a sly smile on her face and a glint in her eye. 'Oh, You'll see,' she said." Notice how I made it not an adverb. Rekka (35:44):Yeah. By not connecting it to the say. Kaelyn (35:46):Exactly. Yes. And yeah, there is this little kind of weird nebulous area there where like, you're like, "well, I'm describing what she's doing. It's, it's kind of an action." But at the same time, you're telling me what she's doing, rather than showing me with a sly smile on her face. Rekka (36:05):That's I would point out that in the, the example, your quote-unquote correction, we also have things that ground us in the space. And so one, a person who might feel the need to tell you what everyone is thinking might also feel the need to show all the actions in the right order, what hand they're using. Like "she used her left hand to close the door while she scratched her nose with her right, with the fingertips of her right hand," you know, like being very specific about everything. Kaelyn (36:36):Yeah. That's interesting that you bring this up because what you're doing now is you're crossing into a different literary problem. We are past the "show, don't tell" and we are into the "excessively detailed for absolutely no reason." Rekka (36:47):And we will maybe talk about that in another episode. Kaelyn (36:49):Yes. But that is, that is a good point. Is that there is a certain, you know– we get past a certain telling like capacity and into the you're now describing the placement of every single thing in the room for no reason. Rekka (37:05):This is a game of twister. Kaelyn (37:05):Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Rekka (37:07):But what you did was you combined the two things to say, like, we've moved ahead with the story because the laptop has been closed or maybe "Rekka closed the laptop and grabbed her jacket. 'You'll See.'" That implies movement. Kaelyn (37:21):Yes. But you're leaving is she being threatening? Rekka (37:25):I wasn't going so much for the sly as talking about like trying to get more action in, in that sense. Kaelyn (37:29):Yeah, exactly. Rekka (37:30):In the case of being sly, then you might say "Rekka closed the laptop, grabbed her jacket and narrowed her eyes as she shut the lights off. 'You'll See.'" Or whatever. Kaelyn (37:39):Yeah. So yeah. Are there times where you have to, you will have to tell rather than show? Absolutely. Are adverbs a never use them? No, I mean, you will, at some point have to use an adverb, but they are a slippery slope to telling, not showing, even though they sound like you're doing a good job of describing something, they're really telling rather than describing, Rekka (38:00):They are skipping the cues that we want in the story and they are jumping right to the judgment. So what you're doing is you're telling the reader how to feel rather than making them feel that. But one thing you did mention earlier, real quick, that I just wanted to get back to before we wrap this up, is the idea of a fast paced scene where there's a lot of action and maybe you've just, you know, watched a Jason Statham movie and you feel like you need to really show all that action and show and describe the, say, like train– underground train tunnel they're in while they're running around chasing each other. But if stopping to describe the space they're in means that you lose that momentum, then it may still be in the physical, but it could also be more telling than we need. You know, "I nearly slipped on a loose piece of old soggy newspaper" or something like that. That's still– Kaelyn (39:02):Gross. Rekka (39:02):That brings you back into the action, increases the threat because you could fall down now, versus like "the train station had been abandoned since 1970, despite many attempts by the local politicians to renovate and drum up support for a Renaissance of the train museum, which was founded by so-and-so." Kaelyn (39:24):Yeah, Exactly. Rekka (39:26):That's world building! Kaelyn (39:27):We don't need to know all of that. Rekka (39:29):That doesn't serve your action scene with Jason Statham, who's got to get in that train car and then take off his sweater and use it to defeat his enemies. Kaelyn (39:36):Yeah. Because unless the enemy he's defeating is the corrupt politician that was siphoning money out of the budget to restore the train station. All we need to know is that has been abandoned for about 50 years. Rekka (39:46):Yeah. And some gross newspaper will communicate that better than a history lesson. Kaelyn (39:51):Just to round this out. You know, somebody comes back to you and is like, Hey, show me, don't tell me you're kind of going, "Oh, well, what the heck do I do with this?" Take a look at the sentence or the paragraph in particular that they're calling attention to and try– read it out loud, try to figure out if it sounds like the paragraph or the sentence is doing double work to you. Is it conveying more than simple statements of fact or very straightforward descriptions of what people are doing or how they appear or a feeling? Rekka (40:24):Is it a list of judgements of a thing versus list of evidence to support that judgment? Kaelyn (40:30):Yeah. I would say that, listen, this isn't, you know, we're being kind of catty about this in terms of, you know, like this is one of those universally considered bad things, but this is also very hard. This is one of the reasons why it's difficult to be a good writer. Because we, as humans are used to, when you describe something, you know, like, "Oh, I went on a date with this guy. Oh, cool. Let's say like, well he's tall and he has Brown hair and blue eyes and he's got a scar on his eyebrow. And,uhe, you know, plays the saxophone and he works as a barista." Like you're telling me, like, you're just listing this stuff about a guy who is a real living, breathing person, but that's a totally acceptable thing that we do all the time. Uyou know, a friend of mine is like, "Oh, let me tell you about my new boyfriend. I don't need poetic soliloquy about, you know, his feelings on the bass versus the alto saxophones,uand why he prefers one and the childhood trauma surrounding that. Umou know, I just like to know that he plays the saxophone. So that's a normal thing for us with how we talk and how we describe things to people in everyday life. However, when you're doing that, you're looking at your friend as they're doing that and you're and you know, says like, "'Oh, he, you know, plays the saxophone and he's a barista.' Rekka rolled her eyes. This was Kaelyn's fourth barista of the year. Second one that played the saxophone. Where was she finding these men?" But Rekka knows that that's going on in her head. Rekka (42:01):Right. But you put that in the story and suddenly there's context again. Kaelyn (42:05):Exactly. But for regular conversation, you don't need context. And hopefully if that's what Rekka's actually thinking, she's not going to start narrating her internal thoughts to me, because then I'm going to– Rekka (42:15):Oh! That's a great idea. I'm going to start doing that now. Kaelyn (42:20):Um so it's a hard thing to do just because of the way we're used to conducting ourselves in our daily life. We don't need to, you know, I don't need to describe to Rekka the fact that I'm sitting in my kitchen right now and I'm wearing a sweater because it's finally getting a little bit chilly here, but I still have some of the windows cracked open... Because one, Rekka doesn't need to know that two, she can see me in the sweater and probably see the window behind me. In stories you don't have that. So you need to make your sentences do as much work as they can, otherwise you are just describing lists of actions, emotions, and feelings. Rekka (42:57):And this might be a great opportunity to take the book that made you feel the most feelings, and give it a skim and see how their prose sounds compared to yours in areas where you're being told this needs some showing versus telling. I mean, the best thing to do is to pay more attention to people who are making you feel the way you want your reader to feel when they read your book. Rekka (43:19):"What Can I do to become a better writer? How should I get started writing?" And my first answer is always you need to read a lot. Rekka (43:25):Always. Never stop reading. Kaelyn (43:27):Really. Never stop reading, because having all of these things in the back of your head, you know, it's not stealing. Think of it as a research. How did this author, that I really liked this book, how did they handle this problem? How did they make sure, how did they grab me by, you know, the heart and really squeeze it for this one scene? Kaelyn (43:45):Like, what did they do that left me in tears here? What did they do that made me stand up and cheer? Why did I stay awake until three in the morning? Because of something I read? You know, so don't think of that as copying. It's not that I think of it as research. Rekka (44:00):Right. Cause you're not going to take their words and use them in your book. You're going to figure out what they did and find how that parallels what you're trying to do. And that's a good thing, you know? Chances are, they did that too. Kaelyn (44:15):Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I'm not sure how much advice that was on Show Don't Tell, but at least hopefully that was some information about why it is important and what people are trying to say when they point it out to you. Yeah. And if this is something you struggle with, don't feel down about that. It's hard. We don't think about practicing writing, but like you really do have to practice writing. Now granted, practicing is doing revisions, but you know, I think we think like you practice piano and then, you know, you don't really have anything to show for it at the end, but practicing can still, you know, it's the same way as like, you know, practicing cake decorating. Maybe it's not great, but you still have a decorated cake at the end of it. Rekka (44:56):Yeah. Rekka (44:57):Yeah. And you can use that to look back and say how much you've improved because your next cake has way more skill applied to it because you've learned Kaelyn (45:05):Plus cake! And even if it doesn't look pretty, maybe it tastes really good. Rekka (45:09):Exactly. You know, when you keep writing, that's how you keep improving. You're not going to sit down and plunk out one amazing novel and never write again. And it will need revision and whatever you write is going to need a second draft or is going to need at least another pass. There's little you can do to avoid that. The more that you write, the less often that you will fall upon some of these like quote-unquote rookie mistakes, you'll make all new mistakes of more advanced variety, but you will get better. And reading more, writing more, and you know, getting other people's opinions will help. There are critique groups out there on the internet, you know, that you can join and you'll get feedback of varying harshness and helpfulness, but like, it will help you. When you critique other people's work, it will help you critique your own work. Because if you can sit back and read it like you were reading someone else's work, how am I going to help this person understand what I'm trying to say I think it needs? Because sometimes you need to rubber ducky your own thoughts a little bit. Kaelyn (46:18):You know, at the end of the day, you hope that you get to a point where somebody puts a note in there of show, don't tell and you go, Oh, of course, right. You don't just sit down and be awesome at writing. That's not how this works. As I said, hopefully that at least kind of clear some of the mystery around the "show, don't tell me." Rekka (46:38):Hopefully clear some of the frustrations so that, you know, when you see those words, if they aren't paired with concrete advice, then you can back up and take a look from, you know, a little bit further away from where it is in your mind and say, "okay, what, what do I think I'm communicating that I'm not communicating?" Kaelyn (46:58):Exactly. Rekka (46:58):Because that's what it comes down to a lot of the times, it's like, okay, you say this person's great. Or you say this monster is scary, but – Kaelyn (47:04):You know that in your head for these reasons and you're not showing it to me, the reader. Rekka (47:09):Yep. Kaelyn (47:09):Well, I think that's, that's pretty much it. I guess that's what we got there. Rekka (47:12):We did manage to go on at length, despite me thinking it was going to be pretty straightforward. I got a whole bunch of these really straightforward quickie episodes planned that are going to be at least the normal length, if not longer. So if you're looking forward to those, make sure that you are subscribed to the podcast. If you have questions about any other kinds of editing tips that you've received in your manuscripts that you were like, "what, what?" Kaelyn (47:35):What is this note? Rekka (47:36):"Kaelyn, Explain this to me, please. Tell me I don't have to do whatever this is saying. "I Think did it say rewrite? Is it saying revise? No, I don't want to just tell me it's perfect." if you have any questions for us about these random topics that editors mark up in your manuscripts, and you're not really sure what they mean, or you want to know how to avoid them in the future, or advice you see that you still don't quite understand, just let, let us know, for sure, @WMBcast on Instagram or Twitter. Kaelyn (48:09):We like, we like these episodes. These are fun. Rekka (48:10):And we love to answer questions and we love to help people. So let us help you. And hopefully we have helped you. And if you feel that we have, you could really help us out by sharing these episodes with a friend who might be interestedUm do make sure that you're subscribed and not just clicking the link that we post on social media because having more subscribers helps other subscribers potentially find us. And also um, really helpful in getting subscribers to find us is to leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts or, you know, generally any review is helpful anywhere, but the Apple podcasts really seems to still have the corner on the market for that. Kaelyn (48:46):That's very true. Rekka (48:46):And, and if you are super, super appreciative and want to show that with currency, in gratitude or in an expression of the editor's fees we've saved you, you can go to patreon.com/WMBcast. We are not trying to steal the work from the professionals. We love all editors, present company included. Kaelyn (49:07):Thank you. Rekka (49:08):We will talk to you in two weeks. Kaelyn (49:10):Thanks for listening, everyone. Rekka (49:11):Thanks everyone.

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 46: Prologues (Advice For People Who Aren’t Famous Enough to Do Whatever They Want) transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And, um, Rekka, is this a prologue right now?   R: I think… it sets up the plot and probably gives away a lot of it, too. [giggles]   K: That’s a good point, yeah. So today we’re talking about prologues. What’s a prologue? What should it do? Do you need one?   R: I proposed this topic to Kaelyn because this is one of those things that I see a lot of writers asking for advice on, is like, “Is my prologue okay?” And that’s the whole question. And there’s some fundamental instinct on some people’s part to say, “No. Never do a prologue.” Where other people are like, “Prologues are great! I love a prologue.”   K: Yeah.   R: And nobody is addressing what is in the prologue, when they have these conversations broadly and speaking in generic terms. So we wanted to get a little less generic, a little more specific, a little bit—not prescriptive, but just descriptive. Here’s what a good prologue does. Compare to yours. Lay it over the top of yours like a sheet of vellum, and see if they match up!   K: Yeah. So, hope you enjoy and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   R: Would you say the scroll in a Star Wars movie is a prologue?   K: Yeah. It’s serving prologue-like functions.   R: Would you say they’re good prologues?   K: Yes.   R: And then it gets you to drop right into the middle of a battle or something like that.   K: It’s saving you from having to—   R: To watch Episode I!   K, laughing: Yeah.   R: Episode I through III are the prologue for Episode IV, just so we’re clear.   K: Okay. Hey, everyone, so, welcome, and I guess what we were just talking about, that’s not considered a prologue, is it?   R: Well, you’re the editor, you tell me.   K: No, it wasn’t, and we’ll get into why. And if you tried to use that as a prologue, you shouldn't—   R: Or at least wait until you’re super famous and nobody edits you.   K: Exactly, yeah. This is only relevant until you’re super famous and then you can do whatever you want.   [both laugh]   R: So we’re talking about prologues today. It’s one of the topics that I see come up a lot between writers in various writing groups that I’m in, is this confusion over whether it’s okay or not to have a prologue. Because there’s some frequently given, offered, shoved advice that Prologues Are Bad, Don’t Do Prologues, but then people look to very famous, very successful books and series and see prologues. And want to know where the line is.   K: I think there’s this prevailing sentiment, and it’s relatively new, that you don’t need prologues. Prologues are bad. And I think this is because for a couple decades before this, we were sort of inundated with prologues. Like every book had a prologue and not every one of them, I would go so far as to say that a small percentage of them were super necessary and served the direct actual function of a prologue.   Before we get too far into this, let’s talk really quickly about the actual definition of a prologue and then what it really does as a literary device. Prologue comes from the Greek, of course it does—   R, laughing: Of course it does!    K: Prologos which means “before word” or “before the word.” This one is a theater function, essentially. It would be the person during Greek dramas and tragedies that would come out and set the scene. They’d stand on the stage, they’d tell a little bit about, “Hey, here’s what’s going on, here are our characters. Our dramatitis personae.” DId I say that right?   R: Nope.   K, laughing: Dramatis personae. Then you go into the story.    R: A good example of this that most people are familiar with is gonna be Romeo and Juliet. It starts with a prologue.   K: Yes, exactly. Yes. Now, in literature, a prologue is an establishing device. It’s different, I want to be really clear, it’s different from a preface. Because a preface is strictly introductory. It’s an introduction to the book or to other literary work written by the author that is relevant to this. A preface is not the story. It is somebody breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, to talk directly to you.   R: When I read something that has a preface, I kind of consider it like, “Okay, the book hasn’t started yet.”   K: Yes, exactly. The prologue is starting the story. It’s establishing things in the story that you want the reader to know before they really dig into the meat of the story.   R: But what does it need to do? K: It needs to intrigue the reader. What a prologue should be is, essentially, a self-contained short story. And a short story without an ending. That’s making the reader question things, making them wonder, “Hey, what’s going on here?” There should be an introductory beginning part. You should establish either places or characters. There should be some action, and by action I mean telling us or showing us something that has happened or is happening, and instead of concluding it like you would a normal short story, you’re kind of leaving it open after that. Or you’re leaving the end vague enough that the reader is left with questions.   R: So, just like a query letter gets you your first read from an agent—   K: That’s a really good way to put it, yeah!   R: Whatever you start your book with, whether you call it Prologue or Chapter 1, needs to draw the reader further into the story.   K: Exactly, yes.   R: So you would say a prologue that explains the history of a city without setting up some  kind of question, or some kind of tension, or some kind of mystery—   K: Is probably a prologue that you don’t need. You know, there’s different ways to work that information into the story so that that’s intriguing the reader as they’re trying to piece together, “What is the history of this city?” And you gotta ask yourself, at this point, is that history important?   R: Right. If you’re following genre tropes and you’re setting your fantasy world in a European-centric palace, kingdom kind of thing, you might not need to really work that hard on that aspect of your worldbuilding.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it’s really tempting and—we’ll get more into this later, when we talk about the Dos and Don’ts of these. But it’s really tempting to use a prologue as sort of an information dump. And here’s the thing, a prologue should give you a lot of information, but it shouldn’t just be stating all of that information straight up.   R: If you’ve spent a lot of time worldbuilding, that’s very good, but you don’t necessarily want to dump it into any part of your novel, least of all the opening pages where you’re convincing the reader that they wanna continue reading it. K: Yeah. Two of my favorite prologues are the prologue from A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones is the first book, and then the other is Jurassic Park. So, it’s funny because I completely misremembered this. For some reason, I remember reading Jurassic Park and the prologue being the same as it is in the movie, but thankfully Rekka checked that and refreshed my memory that it is not. I’m remembering this now.   [R chuckles]   The prologue in the movie and the book kind of do the same thing in two different ways. The movie, we establish that there’s this clearly tropical location. It’s pouring, it’s nighttime, and there’s a large crate being lowered by a crane. And this guy, he has a couple conversations with people, talking about how this isn’t safe, he doesn’t trust this. He’s very tough-looking. One of the workers that’s helping lower the crate gets too close to it, something grabs him by the arm and half-drags him into the cage. And even though they try to save him, you find out that this guy is killed by a dinosaur. And the guy says, “I’m telling you, this isn’t a good idea.”This is a really useful prologue. First, we’re establishing a character. We’re not gonna meet him again until later in the movie, but we’re establishing that he’s not happy with what’s going on here. He doesn’t think it’s safe, and he doesn’t think that this group of people has control over these dinosaurs.    Now, these are dinosaurs. Real, living, breathing dinosaurs. We’re not pulling any punches. Right at the beginning. Pretend you didn’t see the previews for this movie. Right at the beginning, we’re establishing that there are actual, living, breathing dinosaurs. But they do hide the raptor. We don’t really see all of the raptor in this.   R: You know it’s coming. You know it’s there. But you don’t see it.   K: And you know it’s definitely a dinosaur.   R: Yep.   K: But we’ve also established the setting, which is important later in this movie. It’s a tropical island, it gets very dark, and there are these torrential downpours. And that’s an important plot device later in the movie.   R: Mhm.   K: And finally, we establish that this guy isn’t happy because he doesn’t think that they actually have control over these things the way that everyone’s insisting they do. What happens immediately? We establish that he is correct. Because even though this raptor is completely contained, it still managed to kill a guy.   R: Yeah.   K: Now, in the book—the book, Jurassic Park is very different than the movie in quite a few ways—we pick up with this group of men who are rushing through the jungle trying to get to a doctor. He’s been attacked by something and the doctor’s asking, “What happened? What happened?” And they’re being really dodgy and finally confess. They say “raptor.” Again, we’re doing the same thing, where we’re kind of establishing that there are actual dinosaurs and that they’re not really super under control. Personally, I think the movie’s a little more effective, but that one has the visual component.   R: Yeah, it has the benefit of that, for sure.    K: Yeah. Both of those prologues are kind of doing the same thing. They’re establishing that, one, dinosaurs are real. Two, they’re establishing a setting, and three, they’re establishing what is going to become the plot of the movie or book, which is: we can’t control these things, at all.    R: Mhm.   K: Be they, stop it from killing people or, in the larger thematic element, we can’t control them from their nature.   So, then, the second prologue that I always point to is from Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones, and I don’t even like to say it’s the prologue from Game of Thrones, I like to think of it as the prologue for the entire series, A Song of Ice and Fire.   R: It definitely is. As far as we know, that’s what the story’s gonna come back to.    K: And that’s exactly it. So the prologue for A Song of Ice and Fire is we pick up with three rangers of the Night’s Watch who are leaving Castle Black to go out… ranging. They’re talking about different things going on, we get to hear some of their normal day-to-day conversation, which is great because it kind of establishes a little bit of where they’re from and the world that they live in. And they come across a really gruesome scene. It’s like body parts of wildlings that have been killed and arranged in this specific pattern. They get all freaked out and one of them keeps saying, “It’s the—” in the book, they’re called the Others, they’re talking about the others. It’s a myth, and then one of them starts running away. This is the same scene, it’s almost perfectly replicated in the book and the TV show. One of the guys escapes and is so scared of what he sees that he abandons the Night’s Watch and runs south of the Wall. And then that’s where we pick up the story next.But this is fantastic because what George R. R. Martin is doing is setting up that there’s gonna be all this political intrigue, there’s gonna be all this stuff going on, but at the end of the day, there’s freakin’ ice zombies up there. And they don’t like humans.    What he’s done is establish, “I’m not gonna make you wonder if this is real. This is real. This is happening. Even though this seems to be going on in the background for all of the fighting, the wars, the political machinations, at the end of the day this is the real fight.”   R: Right.   K: And I can and have gone on at length about why Season 8 was terrible, based solely on the fact that the final conflict that they dealt with was not what they established at the beginning is the thing we all really need to be concerned about. So, hopefully in the books that’ll go differently.   But that said, that’s a good transition here, is what not to do with prologues. Because in the show, the prologue kind of faked us out. And we could go on forever about why that was, but George R. R. Martin in the book and then what the show was doing was establishing that this is the big conflict, this is the thing we’re all gonna end up fighting against for our lives. And, in the show, final boss turned out to be fucking Circe and her horny pirate.   R, laughing: Oh gosh. But the prologue is setting up the story. Which is to say, it is not separate from the story.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you feel like your prologue is something you can insert after the fact, you know, unless your editor’s saying, “We need to set this up somehow,” don’t just assume that you go back in and write your prologue like you would write your acknowledgements, when the whole thing is done.   K: This is… this is Chekov’s Ice Zombie.   R: Definitely. Chekov’s raptor.   K: If you’re gonna put it in the story, especially to establish its importance at the beginning of all of this, then it needs to be an important, significant factor in the story. We won’t go too far down that rabbit hole because that has a lot more to do with planning and building your story—   R: Right, but I mean that’s what we’re trying to say. If you’re working a prologue into your story, it has to be planned as part of your story. I think it was Writing Excuses, the podcast, where I first heard the concept of bracketing your story elements the way you would write code. And for people who don’t write code, this doesn’t really help except to say that close the tags in the same order that you opened them.    So if you open your prologue and you’re talking about raptors, your book’s climax should not be about zombies.   K: Wait, what if the raptors became zombies?   R: Well, then you need to hint at the possibility of that in that prologue, I think. But yeah, if your prologue doesn’t open a question for your story to examine, then what is it doing? And if it’s not doing that, you’re probably going to hit some resistance with readers or editors or agents, in having this prologue at all.   These are really great examples. Whether you like the books or not. But they take you right into the major conflict of the book, like Kaelyn was saying. Here are dinosaurs, this book is about dinosaurs.   K: Yeah. Real, actual, breathing dinosaurs.    R:Yeah, it’s not about these characters, in particular, but it is going to be about this threat. The opening of Game of Thrones, we assume that the conclusion is going to answer the introduction of this threat. The deserter gets killed in the first chapter, where we meet Bran and the whole Stark family, but it’s not about those characters, it’s about that threat. It’s worldbuilding, but it’s also plot.   K: Yeah, this is where we get kind of into the what not to do. A prologue is not a good place to do an information dump. If you have, you know, a city and you want your prologue to be the entire history of that city… that’s probably not a good prologue to have. Because, unless there’s something about the history of that city that is a mystery, that has been lost to history, that is a point of intrigue, there’s no reason to just have an information dump. That is not what you should be doing in your prologue.   R: So if your book is about that city, and there is a mystery to the city, I hope that’s gonna come through in the plot.    K: Yeah.   R: You probably don’t need to introduce the city so much as you do the characters who are going to experience this shift in perception of what their city really is.   K: Your prologue should leave a reader intrigued, and I will just come out and say it, and not bored. There’s certainly readers out there, and certain genres have a higher representation of them, that like that. They like information, they like history. I always go back to Pillars of the Earth, it’s a Ken Follett book and it’s about a medieval city at the time of the anarchy in England. And there’s a lot of information in there. Ken Follett’s a huge researcher. He goes through, in detail, how people who could not read or write, designed and built cathedrals.   R: Mhm.   K: You know, how they engineered these things. And it’s a very interesting book. I really liked it, but I know a lot of people that had trouble getting through it because it’s pages and pages of him explaining how certain things worked.   R: Yeah, and there are people who appreciate that Tolkein goes on about the flowers in a field, when you’re supposed to be worrying about a battle, but that’s not going to be everyone.   K: Hey, those flowers are gonna get stepped on, Rekka.   R: Well, and that’s like… why are we even bothering, you know? They’re not going to impact this plot at all. So you’re making an excellent point about the genre expectations.   K: I’ll go a little more detail into this because it’s an interesting example of how to disperse this information through your book. Because even though Ken Follett is, as I said, very well-known for excessively researching any story that he writes. This is, it’s about a village, small city maybe, called Kingsbridge and it becomes the site of a bunch of characters from different backgrounds and trades and walks of life that all end up there, and the cathedral is burned to the ground.   And back in—it may have even, I apologize, I read this a long time ago—it may have just been a church. But I think it was a cathedral and in medieval Europe, in order to be considered a city, you had to have a cathedral and you had to have a seat for a bishop.   R: Right.   K: It’s interesting because Ken Follett has to do a lot of worldbuilding, although what he’s actually doing is historical research. But a lot of people will, obviously, not know about what day-to-day life was like in a year 1000-ish English city.   R: Mhm.   K: So he’s got a lot of information to give people about the norms of day-to-day activity and, on top of this, he’s also got a lot of tropes and misconceptions to break about how people think things were versus how they actually were.    R: Yeah, which is a problem. In historical fantasy. Yeah.   K: So there’s worldbuilding in there that he has to establish all of this for this historical fiction book, that is taking place around real historical events. Pillars of the Earth does have a prologue, and what it’s doing is describing the Whiteship Disaster, which was a real thing that happened. The heir to the English throne was killed in a ship sinking off Whitestone and then all of this stuff happens with who inherits the throne. There’s this big war. That is the backdrop for this, but we’re watching the village.   So, what is he doing in the prologue? He’s establishing the historical background for events that actually happened, and then setting it against fictional characters. And them just trying to either live their daily lives or accomplish a certain goal, which ultimately is, get this freaking cathedral built in Kingsbridge.   R: So this case is historical fiction…   K: Fiction, yes.   R: But if this were an epic fantasy created world, you can still do this? Or would you say… you, as an editor, would you say—   K: Um, okay so, yeah—   R: I mean, I’m saying is there a double standard because oh, he did so much research! But authors do so much worldbuilding. Is it fair to say, “Well you have to establish what really happened because people don’t know, or people have a misconception,” but I think that’s true of fantasy, too. So why do some prologues that are info dumps of this size and expanse, not good versus the ones that are permissible.    K: Well, that’s interesting. Probably in fiction, everybody’s—especially in fantasy and science fiction-based fiction where everything is fictional and it’s not historically based—   R: Yeah.   [21:39]   K: So, in Pillars of the Earth, it’s not an information dump. You’re at a criminal trial and a hanging.   R: Okay, so, we’re just introduced that there actual characters in this. For anyone who hasn’t read it before, we don’t know that based on the earlier description. The earlier description sounded like, you know, a history textbook—   K: Yeah, okay so—   R: Here’s the important detail is that we are drawn in because we have characters and because there is something at risk.    K: Yes. The sinking of the Whiteshop has left England in chaos. Now, Ken Follett takes some liberties here with, you know, the actual history of all this, for the sake of intrigue. But we pick up with, the prologue is, this man in prison who is not quite sure why he’s in prison. And the reader is not sure why he’s in prison, but it’s very clear that he’s gonna be hanged.   And his pregnant lover shows up, curses the men who are gonna hang him, and their families, everything, and that all of his enemies will have nothing but regret and sorrow in his life. The people who are condemning this man are a priest, a knight, and a monk. And they’re accusing him of a theft that he clearly did not commit.   R: Okay.   K: And then we pick up about ten or so years later.   R: Okay, so chapter one begins ten years after the curse laid down by this man’s lover.   K: Yes, exactly. But what we’re establishing is a conspiracy.   R: Okay.   K: So that’s what a good prologue does. And that’s a very common device with prologues, is a time jump.   R: Right, and that’s why there is a line drawn between: this prologue is unnecessary and you didn’t start chapter one in the right place. You know? Those are two different arguments.   K: Yeah. So in the case of—it’s interesting because in the case of the two prologues that I listed that I really like, Song of Ice and Fire and Jurassic Park, there really isn’t much of a time jump. We pick up pretty much immediately after, in A Song of Ice and Fire and Jurassic, yeah.   R: A couple weeks or something, at the worst.   K: And Jurassic Park is maybe a few months, if that.   R: Mhm.   K: In Pillars of the Earth, it’s I think over a decade.   R: Right.   K: So, what we’ve done is established, hey, there was a conspiracy. Something happened here. Now obviously, again, this is Chekov’s pregnant woman. Obviously, this kid is going to be important somehow. Obviously, the woman is going to be important somehow.   R: Mhm.   K: You’re going to be spending this whole time speculating, “Was it her? Was it her? Is this her kid? Who was this monk, this knight, this priest?” And it’s so good at establishing this conspiracy that makes you wanna read because then you’re getting into the story and going, “How on Earth is all of this connected to this?”   R: But that brings up a good point. If you have a prologue and then a time jump, are you making a dissatisfying experience for the reader because you started them on one story and then you switched them to a new one?   K: Not if there’s a payoff.   R: Right, so that’s something to consider in your prologue construction. And, as we’ve said, Chekov’s this, Chekov’s that—you are setting up something for your main story. You’re not telling a short story that makes an interesting, “Oh, also in this world, this happened.” And establishes your worldbuilding, but doesn’t establish, also, your plot.   K: Exactly. So, the Dos and Don’ts of prologues. And I know we’ve kind of wound about here a little bit, but this is not a place to dump information. As I think we’ve established.   R: Even though that might be what you’re trying to do, is actually communicate a lot of setting right away, you aren’t dumping it.   K: You can! Yeah, there are ways to do it. I always say, my—and this is not, this isn’t like a Golden, Always Do This Rule but one of the good metrics I have with a prologue is: Do you need to establish things before the story starts that you want the readers to know, that maybe the characters that we’re going to meet right off the bat don’t know? All three of the prologues that I’ve talked about here do that.   Jurassic Park establishes there are real dinosaurs and they’re hurting people and they can’t be controlled, which the characters going into Jurassic Park certainly don’t know that the dinosaurs are real until they get there.   R: And they certainly don’t know that they’re just gonna get out. Soon as it rains.   K: Yeah. Song of Ice and Fire, the characters don’t know—probably don’t want to know—that the Others are real and that they’re like actual, supernatural forces running around north of the Wall. And in Pillars of the Earth, we’re establishing that this guy was killed to cover something up. We don’t know what yet, but there was a conspiracy against him to cover something up and that is then going to become part of the story, as well.   R: When do you call it Chapter One and when do you call it a prologue?   K: When the story starts, Rekka. [laughs]   R: No, but I mean, like—Why is… why is the—   K: No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. R: —the injured Costa Rican person from Jurassic Park, why is that scene not chapter one? K: Well, so here’s something interesting that we see in all of these prologues. None of the people in these are really the main, main characters of the story.   R: Unless they appear in utero.   K: Unless they appear in utero, yes. You know, in the case of Jurassic Park, I can’t remember the guy who was basically the park ranger. He’s a significant character, but we don’t meet him again until later on. In A Song of Ice and Fire, you know, we meet the runaway ranger again because he needs to be executed for fleeing the Night’s Watch.   R: Right.   K: And he is able to convey some information to the other characters and then he’s done his job so we execute him.   R, amused: As we do.    K: Kill your darlings, Rekka.   R: And anyone else.   K: And anyone else who is not necessary to your story.   R: Mhm.   K: And in Pillars of the Earth, um, the pregnant woman of course does show up again, but again, we don’t meet her until much later in the story. So I think, when your story starts is when it’s the characters who are going to be living through and acting out most of the story.   R: Okay.   K: This is why I say, you know, with prologues, a good metric for them is, establishing things that you want the reader to know, but the characters of the book don’t know. So if it’s the main characters, then obviously they’re gonna know it.   R: Right.   K: The people you’re following are the ones typically trying to figure something out, find something, do something, find someone, et cetera. So if they are in the prologue, then they might know this. Maybe they’re in the prologue as a baby and then there’s a time jump, you know.   R: Mhm.   K: I think… the beginning of Harry Potter, that was a prologue.   R: Chapter One, The Boy Who Lived.   K: Oh, okay. So it’s not a prologue. It’s chapter one. So here’s a good example of maybe you don’t need a prologue.   R: But from what we’ve just discussed, it actually might qualify as a prologue.   K: I would say that’s a prologue. Yes, you’re in this position of, do you just take your prologue and make it chapter one because you don’t want people yelling at you about a prologue?   R: But that is valid! Like, there are people who are so incensed by the concept of a prologue in a book that all they care about is the word prologue at the heading of the text. And if you change it to chapter one, they don’t even bat an eyelash about it. Here’s one of the things that I was gonna ask you, real quick, because I know we have to wrap up, but why might your prologue not be working?   One, the thing you can’t control, is that it just pisses off the reader. The word prologue.   K: Yeah, that is absolutely something you can’t control. If you have an editor, an agent, a reader, that just doesn’t like prologues for whatever reason—   R: A prologue hurt them one time.   K: Yeah, and this is where there are certain things you’re just never gonna change people’s mind on. I think that’s kind of narrow-minded because as I’ve talked about at length here, there are some really outstanding prologues that exist out in the world.   R: Some people just really like rules and they don’t really consider the subtleties of them.   K: Exactly, yeah. There are no absolutes in writing, to be sure. That said, if somebody comes to you and says, “Hey, I don’t like prologues. You don’t need this.” Well, there’s two things that could be going on here. Either you gotta make an argument for why this is a genuine prologue and something that you wanna have and is necessary to your story, or you’ve gotta take a step back and go, “Does this person not like prologues or is this just not working?”   R: Yeah. It might be behoove you to consider how much weight your prologue is pulling before you make the decision to keep it. And maybe, as you’re editing, really lean into what it can do for your story. As opposed to just setting the scene, the way it does in Shakespeare.   K: So how do you know is your prologue necessary? Well, look, I’m not saying this to be hurtful to authors, at all, but like… authors frequently end up in a position in these books where they can’t see the trees through the forest. You lose a little bit of the self-awareness about your book because you’re so ingrained in it.   R: Mhm.   K: You spent so much time with the book and with these characters and with the way you envisioned this. Do you need a prologue or are you insisting you need one and everyone’s telling you no? Well—   R: I mean, did you write a prologue because lots of books you loved had prologues and you think you just call the first chapter “Prologue” or that you always start with something, but you don’t know what it is that makes it functional?   K: Yeah, so this may be, honestly, this may be where your editor or your beta readers come in and say, “You don’t need this.” And have a discussion about it!   R: And if someone says that—yeah.   K: Yeah, absolutely have a discussion about it. Say, “Oh, well, I think because this, and I think it’s establishing this. I think this is intriguing,” and if they’re saying, “Well, you think that it’s doing that, but it’s not actually doing that.” Then—   R: Also, I felt this way as I started to read Chapter One as a result of having come out of the prologue.   K: Yeah.   R: That transition has to be not as jarring as possible. You really don’t want the person to have to start the book over at that point.   K: Yes. And I, you know, I’ve had discussions with authors about this. There have been books I’ve read where I’ve actually thought this could’ve used a prologue. You could’ve put something in here to lay the groundwork a little bit because I am a third of the way through this and I am very confused.   This is, at this point, if you’ve got multiple people telling you, “Hey, you don’t really need this prologue,” it’s probably time to consider whether or not you really need this prologue.   R: And if you really feel that you want one because there’s something you’re trying to accomplish, that’s a good hint that you’re not accomplishing it.    K: Yes, exactly. So, if you really want the prologue, then you gotta come up with a way to make the prologue work and, if you can’t, then you probably don’t need one.   R: Consider your genre, too. You may have a totally functional prologue, but your genre doesn’t want it. You know?   K: Yes, yes.   R: If you’re a romance reader, you don’t wanna hear about some other story from ten years prior. You wanna get right into the characters and watch their character arcs progress. If you are into really fast-paced military science fiction, you probably don’t wanna prologue except for, like, maybe a paragraph just setting up the powers at play. Maybe.   K: There really is this backlash against them because I think for a number of years, every story was coming up with a prologue and it was like, “Do you really need this?” And it’s funny because I remember being in elementary school and reading classes and talking about this and saying, “You start with your prologue.”   R: Mhm.   K: I thought for a while, like, okay you just have a prologue. Cool.   R: I mean, if you have a prologue, you should start with it. But you don’t necessarily have to have one.   K: I mean, don’t stick it in the middle of the book for no reason. [laughs] Do we really have anything else to say about prologues here? Except, you know, they’re only necessary until they’re not?   R: Um, or they’re not necessary until they are?   K: Yeah, yeah.    R: If you look around your genre and you see a lot of prologues, then that might be a permission slip to consider one. But you also want to see what those prologues are doing. I mean, if you are writing to release books, you definitely need to be reading in your genre to understand what else is out there.    And not just old stuff. Like, read books in the last five and ten years. Make sure that you’re getting the latest view of the genre landscape and not just the quote unquote “classics” that are getting to the point where they’re a hundred years old or more, at this point.   K: And for those of you going, “Well my book is my book and that’s just what it is.” Cool. Have fun not selling as much of it as you could.   R, laughing: Well, I mean, your book may be your book and it might be what it is. And you might have done a successful prologue, but consider whether other books in that genre have them. If you never see another prologue and you’re setting up a prologue that belongs in a different genre, then maybe rewrite the whole universe you’ve created to create something in a different genre. If you really want that prologue. If that prologue is more important to you than meeting the genre expectations, switch genres.    But we didn’t touch on some very classic, prologue-y kind of things and I just thought it’d be fun to list a couple before we go. Is that you got like mystery, detective murder stories. Like the easy parallel is like a Law & Order episode. There’s always somebody discovering the body.   K: Yup.   R: And then you cut to the detectives circling the body. Then the pithy one-liner, then the credits. So—   K: I mean, it’s not an episode of Law & Order without the pithy one-liner.   R: Yeah. But that genre is full of books which are procedural! They follow a very specific pattern, they are not about character development, they are not about being drawn into worldbuilding. They are about: here’s a question, by the end of the book we answer it. If your prologue is something like that, it might belong in that story. And then epic fantasy. We’ve mentioned two epic fantasies, pretty much.   K: Yeah.   R: Is that you are setting up a whole world and, in theory, your reader has arrived because they are just pumped for 800 pages of your story, with the expectation they’re gonna be there awhile and they want to get their footing. But they still need to be compelled through the book, you know? So be kind to them and build it into your story. Don’t make it an accessory. And don’t defend it to the death, if you’re being told by multiple people that it’s not working.   K: Yeah. And look, if the prologue—again, I’ll just go back to if the prologue’s not working and you can’t make it work, then you probably don’t need a prologue. Not every book needs one. Most don’t.   R: The example I’d give is City of Lies by Sam Hawke, it is about a city. It is about a political system. It is about all these different parties and peoples clashing and yet it goes straight into the main character. There’s no pause. You learn about the city through the characters and that is, I think, can be more effective than a prologue in a case where it is about the connection of those characters to their city.   K: Yeah, so.   R: So, your prologue may be necessary, it may not be. Definitely get some opinions and definitely give it thought and see what it can do to actually move your story along before you just commit to the concept of a prologue. Or before you reject it outright!   K: Yeah, exactly. Yep. I’m trying to think of any instances I’ve ever heard where somebody was told, “Hey, you need a prologue.”   R: I mean, I do know several other writers who were told by their editors, after they sold the book, “Hey, we’d like to put a prologue in here.” And then go to town! You know. And probably that editor, since they’re asking for it, is going to tell you what they want it to accomplish. Which is different than just you guessing at what you need.   K: Huh,yeah. Anyway! So that’s prologues. Do you need one? We’re not sure. Figure it out.   [Both laugh]   R: We’re so helpful. That’ll be ten bucks, folks.   K: Do you need one? Maybe! What’s your book like? So anyway, thanks for listening. As always, hope this was helpful—   R: In some way!   K: —even though more and more—yeah we typically end these episodes with: Question? I don’t know, maybe! Figure it out.   R: Well, you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast or Instagram, also @wmbcast. If this was helpful and you do want to throw us that ten bucks or whatever, you can also find us on Patreon.com/wmbcast. And send us your questions or leave a question on social media somewhere and we will answer it in a future episode. If you need more clarification like, “Okay, you said this, but what if—” we might answer it on social media in replies, or we might it’s a whole topic for the future.   But either way—   K: Oh, we have done whole episodes of just questions people sent us online.   R: So send us your questions, please! We love to hear from you and we will be back in two weeks, either with your question or something else we thought of! Thanks everyone.   K: Thanks everyone.   [outro music plays]   

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 45: Formatting Cover Art for Publication transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between, and this episode definitely leans more toward the publishing end of things and cement boots and everything. Right down, drowning you in information.    I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore and Kaelyn’s making a face at me.   K: I’m Kaelyn and, uh… My job is to make sure that Rekka maintains her sanity a little bit while trying to explain very, very complicated things here.   R: I’m totally sane. The question is, am I making myself understood?   K: Yes, this is sort of rounding out our discussions on cover and book art. We’re getting into the technical nitty-gritty of how you now take a lovely picture, that someone has done for you, and actually get it on the cover of a book so that it looks right.   R: We are going into the weeds! A wild book-cover template has appeared!   [K laughs]   R: How do you make it become your friend?   K: So Rekka is particularly disposed to talk in great detail about this because Rekka is a designer. This is one of the things that Rekka does. Beyond just knowing how to set up and lay these things out. Rekka knows a lot about color and composition and accounting for how things look on a screen versus how they look in print, and how all of these terrifying details actually work.   R: There’s so much information that I wanted to communicate. I hope I do a good job. I hope it’s clear, I hope it’s not overwhelming. I feel like this is important, because there’s a lot of stuff that, just generally, people don’t understand about the process and when they have a cover illustration that they’ve commissioned, the now what? This is the episode for the, “Now what?”   K: I think the key takeaway from this cover art and artwork series we’ve been doing, is this is way more complicated than you ever thought it was. I’ll leave it at that. [K laughs]   R: Yeah, and I struggle to allow the word complicated. It’s just, it is a specialty.   K: Yeah.   R: I mean, every step of this process is a specialty. You, the author, are exercising your specialty in writing, and then an editor exercises their specialty in editing, and then a copyeditor does theirs, and then a cover artist creates a cover with their specialty, and then a designer uses their specialty to lay out the book and the cover. And these are all specialized parts of a process that, in the past, have been teams of people. In this day and age, where we expect to be able to self-publish and Do It All Ourselves has become less of a specialty-based thing and more of a I Can Do This Myself, I Am Empowered, therefore I should do this myself. Which, you know, should you? It’s… ehh. Listen to this episode, I dunno, you decide.   K: As we say many times here, it’s not easy and there’s a lot more that goes into this than you would think. So, Rekka, takes us through all of that. I think this is a really good resource episode. So take a listen, hope you enjoy, and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [into music plays]   K: Speaking of looking at things—   [R and K burst into laughter]   R: That’s tenuous at best.   K: Not all of my transitions are good ones, Rekka.   R: Maybe the worst ones are the prize ones, though.   K: Hey, look, radar displays images in certain ways, we’re talking about displaying images in certain ways today. No… alright.   R: It’s so weak. It’s so weak.   K: Come back to me.   R: No, don’t. Can we just move on?   [K laughs]   R: So we spent September talking to you—well, August and September, a little bit, with one small deviation, talking to you about cover art. So one thing that I’m always good for is a long, droning episode about how you would formal something. So we thought about, maybe, for people who have received cover art that they’ve commissioned, how do you now turn that into a file that you can upload and provide to a printer, to create a book cover?   K: This is kinda the last step, if you will. You’ve got this file and you’re ready to have a book printed. Now, there’s a few things here.   R: The first point is, you’re not ready to have a book printed. Not yet.   K: All of the real fun, especially difficult technical stuff, really comes from, then, trying to figure out how to get this on a cover where it’s not accidentally zoomed in on a square of a hundred pixels and all you can see is the corner of one of the letters from the title.   R: This is why we don’t let Kaelyn format the covers.   K: Look, stuff happens sometimes, Rekka. [Both laugh] So, Rekka, as we’ve—hopefully, if you listen to this show regularly, you know by now Rekka is a designer by trade… is it by trade?   R: I am technically a designer by trade. Yeah. I chose this on purpose.   K: And knows how to do all of this stuff. And you will notice that I said Rekka is a designer. Rekka has a degree in this. I am saying this because this is not easy to do.   R: At the very least, it is easy to mess up.   K: Yes! Yes. So, Rekka, I am a cover artist. I have sent you files. Probably multiple files, actually.    R: Um, well, that depends on our contract.   K: Yup.   R: You’re going to get a file, either with or without your cover lettering already in place. As we’ve talked about in past episodes, in the past few weeks, the cover artist may also do text treatment for you, or you may need to find a designer to do that for you.    The file format that you receive is going to be dependent on what was agreed upon, and part of why I started with whether or not it has text in it is because if you need to manipulate that text in the future, you really hope that you have a layered file from your cover artist. And by layered file, I’m talking, probably, about a .psd file or a .tiff with layers. More likely, you’ll get a .psd. I think, unfortunately, Adobe’s got the stranglehold on the market and their filetype with layers, by default, is .psd.    If you’ve got a .tiff I would find a way to open it and check really, really soon because you do wanna make sure that that text treatment is on its own layer. Because every time I’ve received a file from a cover artist with text in it, it’s not in a good position for the final layout file.   K: And just to be clear, and part of the reason I was asking this is, if you’re planning to do stuff to this and mess around with this, and you don’t have Adobe, and it’s a .psd, you’re not really gonna be able to do a whole lot with this.   R: Right, you’re still gonna need to be able to open the file and that means Adobe. And if you only open Adobe files when you’re preparing your cover for the final, live version that’s going to go on the cover, you can subscribe to Adobe and get Creative Cloud for a month and then cancel after you’ve gotten what you needed to and then come back the next time you have a cover.   K: Mhm.   R: If you are an author who’s releasing ten books a year because you self-publish, you probably are going to need to have a running subscription with Adobe. I would definitely suggest that you, well, okay, so here’s the thing. If you know that you don’t know what you’re doing with this, pass it on to a graphic designer.   K: Yeah, so let’s be clear right from the start here. This is coming from me, who, I have very limited experience and ability, with Photoshop, with .psd files. Dealing with this, even just sometimes I had opened files for books just because I needed to check something, and I have never been more afraid to click on things before in my life.    R: You should be afraid. Definitely be afraid. If you don’t know what clicking on something will do, be afraid.    K: I just wanna emphasize, you know, for Rekka, she looks at this and she knows everything that she’s looking at. The widgets, the buttons, the gloopity-globs, and what they do. I look at this and just see lines on top of lines on top of objects, that if I move something now and the entire thing is ruined.   This is not easy. I think we think like, “Oh, it’s Photoshop, whatever. I do that and make memes all the time.” This is not the same thing.    R: Um. Depends on how lovely your memes are. I mean, if you really get complicated you might be already half-way to doing your own title treatment.   So when you get a file from an artist, anybody else who’s created it, they’re probably going to have done so in their own mannerisms. The way you would create a .psd file is not necessarily the way someone else will create a .psd file. So you have to take a minute to acclimate yourself to their thought process. So you have to find where they hide the layers that have text on them. You have to hope that they labeled layers with filters so that you understand what that filter was trying to do for the image itself.   K: And, by the way, if you’re going, “What the heck are layers?” Do not try to do this by yourself.   R, giggling: Yeah.   So you’re probably not going to get a lot of layers, like all of the artist’s layers, because again, they might be illustrating digitally and so they do a little bit of touch-up on one layer and when they got what they wanted and it looks the way they wanted it to, then they flatten it to the layer below so it’s not just like a tiny little glob of whatever color they were working in that could accidentally be removed from the other thing if you start moving elements around.   [10:00] R, continuing: So, the file you receive from your artist is likely going to be a flat illustration, unless you arranged otherwise, like I said in the episode with… Colin, I think. When I commissioned Julie Dillon to do the Flotsam cover, I did specifically ask for certain things to be on their own layers so that I could use them as elements in a video and move them around a little bit, just for some subtle motion.K: I’ll jump in here with the non-designer take on this. For those of you listening at home, and you know I joked earlier if you’re going, “What the heck are layers?” If you are wondering what this is, in an Adobe Photoshop file, certain—whether they be colors, images, objects, text they’re on what’s called layers. And they’re literally images or, well images primarily, stacked on top of each other. And—    R: Think of them like transparency sheets. So if there are colored pixels on that transparency sheet, that layer, then you will see something, and if there are no colored pixels on that layer you won’t see anything, unless it is the background, in which case it is the background color that’s set for that document.   K: Yeah, so each of these—so these layers, when they get stacked on top of each other and, as Rekka said, when they’re flattened, what that means is you’ve taken all the layers and pressed them down into one new layer altogether, at that point. Now those objects are bonded together for the rest of their lives.   R: For life, yeah.   K: And there’s no separating them.   R: So the artist probably has a version of that file with layers, and what they sent you was flattened because you asked for an illustration, you didn’t ask for the entire process. It’s not show-your-work, it’s please-provide-me-with-an-illustration. So if you did get lettering on it, if you’ve got your title treatment from the artist, it’s probably on its own layer, one hopes, and you hope because the artist isn’t working with your cover template and they don’t know your final spine width and they don’t know all the text that you might need to put on there.   So, hopefully, they’ve put it on a layer so you can move it around a little bit after the fact. Because, like I’ve said, I have gotten many covers from clients where the text was already in place and it was too close to the edge when I sized things up for the final print version. Because you need some space to be able to trim off the edge. Because if you don’t have image past the edge of the paper, then you get a white like around the edge rather than a nice, crisp end that comes in the middle of the image. So you want your trim to be smaller than your image size, and you also have margins around the outside and you want the title, usually, to be centered on the front cover. But if it’s too close to the outside margins, then the only thing you have left to do is make sure that you have enough resolution that you can enlarge it so it centers, but then it might be too big—   [K laughs]   R: So if you’re stuck with an image where the lettering is on the same layer as your illustration, you’re probably going to run into trouble. So, when you open up your file that you get from your artist, that’s one of the things to check. Make sure that the titling can be edited separately from that background illustration. And, if it can’t, write them back real quick. Hopefully it was in your contract. I bought a fifty-dollar premade cover, just as a placeholder for something, that I wanted to deal with later. And the text was provided and it was eBook shaped only. It was vertical, it wasn’t a full wrap-around cover. And the text was not editable in my file and I was like, “Oh. Now I know why it was so cheap,” because I wasn’t getting a file I could really work with.   Colin also mentioned, in that episode, make sure you are allowed to edit that file as you need to.   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say is, Rekka, some people are probably wondering, “Okay, well, why wouldn’t they just send me the layers and, if I know how to do this, let me flatten everything myself?” And you know, the thing is, as we talked about in the real cover art episode, this is this artist’s work. They don’t want to give you something that you’re going to mess around with to the point that they’re not okay with their name being on it anymore.   R: Right, right. You know, if you have an illustration that’s on one layer and then you’re just messing around with the text that you probably—   K: Wrote anyway.   R: Yeah, well you were slightly involved in picking the font or whatever. Then, chances are they’re going to give you that title treatment, at least. Now the text might not be editable, so you might not be able to say, “Whoops, I gave you a typo and now it needs to get fixed.” You might have to go back to them for that, and then pay them more because that’s your fault.   So, you hope that you get to at least move the text around so that you can make small adjustments later. The next thing that I would check is your print size versus your resolution because it is possible to get a 300 dpi image, 300 is standard printing high resolution, but it’s also possible for that image to only be four inches across, which is smaller than you need for your wrap-around cover.   It’s still 300 dpi, so if you only specify 300 dpi, who knows what you’re getting? You need it to have a certain print size. So it’s probably going to be 8 ½ - 9 inches, 10 inches, depending on your cover size. If you have a 6x9 cover, you need to make room for the spine, you need to make room for the back cover, you need to make room for the trim size and the bleed. So your 6x9 cover is probably going to be something more like 13 ½ x 9 ¼ overall.   K: Rekka… you just threw out a lot of terms there. All of which—   R: Nah, it’s fine. Everyone understands what I mean.   K: No, well, all of which seemed to relate to the anatomy of a book!   R: Yeah.   K: So, backtracking to that, this is something—you’re not getting an image that then you just slap on into a template and then it prints the book. As, Rekka said, there’s the back cover, the spine, the front cover, there’s bleed. I’ll let Rekka talk more about what bleed is. But then, you have to think about, you have to line up everything that—Okay, I want this on the front cover, I want this on the spine, I want this on the back cover. Then, of course, there’s also: Is this a paperback or hardback book? And then that starts to get tricky. R: Hopefully, you’ve made all of these decisions before you hired your artist so that you could give them this information.   K: Yes, yes.   R: Because, as we’ve mentioned in the past, if you have a dust jacket with a wraparound inside flap on both ends, now suddenly you need an extra six inches on your landscape image that your artist is giving you. And that’s a much bigger image and they might charge you extra for it, and that would totally be reasonable because you’re asking them to create more. And it’s almost another back cover, so it’s like a wraparound around.   K: But there was another word, Rekka, that we talked about—one of my favorites—the bleed. What’s that?   R: Um. Sadly it’s not about blood...letting.   K: Yeah, sort of disappointing—I mean, it is actually, in an abstract way, kind of some blood-letting.   R: Well, there are blades involved. Basically, you don’t want your image to only be exactly the size of the cover, you want the cover image to extend past the area you’re actually going to use, and then they trim off the extra. And what they trim off is considered the bleed, and that’s usually a standard amount of extra image that they require and, typically, it’s about an eighth of an inch all the way around.   K: So let’s say this is a paperback book—   R: Mhm.   K: —and they’re getting, they’re printing whatever is sent to them.   R: Yeah.   K: This is, assuming that a human looks at this before somebody takes it out of a box to read it—    R: And these days, with POD, there’s probably not a human looking at it.   K: Yeah, exactly. Printing presses, yes, they’ve changed a lot, but really they haven’t changed all that much because it’s stacking up pieces of paper, putting them in this cover. The edges are not going to be uniform on a lot of these. They’re gonna be close, but maybe not exact, so you’ve got this giant cutting device coming down and slicing the edges off.   R: Three edges, not all four.        K: It’s gonna be like, “Listen, I know you wanted a book, but here’s a pile of loose paper that’s kind of in the same order, I guess?” Pick up a paperback, or even really a hardback book, if you look you’ll see marks on the side of it where you can tell where the paper was cut.   But what this bleed is providing, extra background essentially. Nothing that is central focus to the cover, be they pictures, people, or words, should be in the bleed area.   R: There’s a safety area away from the edge where things are going to get trimmed off because there is no guarantee that the trim is going to be perfect every time, so you want to make sure that if it wiggles, and I think they allow for, like… they promise you a hundredth of an inch but it’s really more like a tenth of an inch and the wiggle is different every time.   K: Yes.   R: Especially for POD. You want to make sure that your text is well-enough away, not just so that it doesn’t get trimmed off, but that it still looks like it's in the position you wanted it in when the whole book is assembled and trimmed and standing free.    K: And this is exactly why I’m terrified of this. There have been times that I’ve had to order short runs of advance copies of books and I’m messaging Rekka like, “Is this right??? Is this right??? It doesn’t look right!! Why is there so much black around the side??” “No, that’s supposed to be there, Kaelyn.” “Are you sure????”   [R laughs]   It was very stressful.    R: Yeah, if you saw the flat file for an ARC copy where we have the ribbon across the top in a special color to make it stand out as an ARC and it has the date and everything like that. When you’re looking at the flat file, it looks like that text is not centered because of the bleed above it and around the edges.   K: Yeah, it’s very disorienting and I was a little worked up. So, Rekka, let’s say you either know how to do this, you’ve done it yourself, or you’ve hired a designer to do it for you. You’re gonna send these files to a printer. Let’s say you’re gonna do print-on-demand. What are some things you need to know about the files? Before you’re sending them and then when you’re getting something back?   R: Right, so if you’ve already checked that you can move your stuff around and maybe you’ve already positioned it so you can, I definitely recommend, if you know how you’re doing your print-on-demand, that you use that same service to get a proof print right away.   K: Mhm. Yeah.    R: And it’s trickier with Amazon because I don’t think you can do it until you submit your final files because they don’t want to spend a whole bunch of time correcting things in the printing process for you. So if you’re sending through KDP, before you publish your book, it’s covered with Do Not Sell or Print-Proof or Author Copy Only, or some kind of text. And it’s very sad looking. It’s hard to get excited about looking at your print proofs from Amazon.    You can go through IngramSpark—   K: Or Lulu.    R: You can go through Lulu. So IngramSpark is actually a book distributor, so if you go through IngramSpark, you can get those books into Barnes and Noble, libraries, whoever orders it from a catalog, they’ll go through the Lightning Source catalog and they will get the IngramSpark version of your book. If you upload to Amazon, nobody else is gonna buy that book because they know Amazon’s profiting from it.   K: Yep.   R: What I do, is I distribute for Amazon through KDP and I distribute everywhere else through IngramSpark. So, if you go through IngramSpark, you know that’s how it’s going to get printed when it goes out to other bookstores. If you go through Lulu, unless you decide that you’re gonna set up a Lulu storefront and actually sell your books through Lulu, you are getting an idea of how it’s going to look. But Lulu’s printers are not Lightning Source’s printers are not KDP’s printers.    So the colors might not be exact. So if you have a really exacting eye for color, you’re gonna want to get as close to the final printer as you can. And that’s what it is. But there is something that you do want to be looking for, and this is why I suggest you send it off, even if you send it off to Lulu at first, and that’s how the colors are going to shift from what you see on your screen to what comes out on paper, because your screen is backlit. So all the colors on your screen are built using red, green, and blue (RGB) light.    K: Yes, and this is exactly what I was going to say, is Rekka, why is it so important to see what this looks like once it’s actually printed?   R: Because everything you’ve seen on your screen, on your devices, everything backlit is subtractive light and everything you see on paper is additive light. So paper is made with cyan, magenta, yellow, and black ink (CMYK). Sometimes you have two different shades of yellow and two different shades of magenta, to get extra rich depth of color. It depends on your printer. When you look at light coming out of your screen, the light is the image coming into your eye.   K: Yes.   R: When you look at paper, the image is the light reflecting off that paper into your eye. And they are not perceived the same way.   K: Think about if you have a smart TV or even a digital picture frame and you put, you know, pictures up there. You’ll notice that they look different than if you printed them.   R: Mhm.   K: Let’s say, not even just you got the pictures printed at CVS.   R: But even a print from a photo shop is going to look different than the version you see on your screen. The colors. The darker colors might be more dark, but the neon colors might not be as neon. So it’s not like colors get more by being printed. Some colors look better as backlit and other colors look better as printed.    K: In my experience with this, what I found is that if you want colors to be very vibrant printed, you need to over-vibratize them before they go to print.   R: So certain colors just will not print in a four-color process. So when you get your file and if you’ve either hired a designer who has Photoshop, or you have Photoshop, you want to take this file that they sent you and look for the gamut warning. And the gamut warning will emphasize the image areas where the colors are out of gamut. And what this means is like, “ink ain’t gonna do that. Now, a gamut’s not gonna tell you how they’re gonna shift. It’s just gonna tell you which colors just aren’t gonna happen.   K: There’s a reason that we have so many animated movies that are meant to look like traditional, flat animation but are actually done by computers. Because you can get a richer color and texture in there. You can emphasize—you can brighten and emphasize certain things, as opposed to, there is a certain limit to what you can do with a piece of paper and a paintbrush. Or a printer, in this case.    R: You think about Batman: The Animated Series. The reason that that animated series looks so different from so many of the cartoons that were happening at the same time, is because that was done on black paper—  K: Yes.   R: —versus everyone else who started on white paper. So these are just things to know that, you know, understand how light and color and reflections versus projections, and all this kind of stuff, how they work. It doesn’t really help you if you have a color out of gamut, though.    K: Yeah.   [25:53]  R: The only thing you can do is take that back to the artist and say, “This color. I love what you did,” make sure you’re complimentary, “I love what you did, but this color isn’t going to work. How do we push this so that we get the same effect without changing the color entirely?” I mean, sometimes the only thing to do is change the color, but sometimes you can shift things.    So if it’s supposed to be a neon green, but you’re not gonna get that neon green out of a print press, what you can do is darken the areas around it and try to make it look more neon than it actually is by contrast. This is stuff the artist is gonna know. You don’t have to tell them the solution. Just say, “Hey, this area’s out of gamut, if I print this, it’s not going to look as good as you made this look on screen.”   Because chances are, if you get a file from your artist, they were working in RGB because you want them to work in RGB. Even though this print book will be printed in CMYK, the colors on screen for CMYK mode are not accurate, so when you work on screen, adjusting colors, you adjust them in RGB.   So this artist probably sent you an RGB file. So you can go back to them and say, “I need this to work in print, please.”   K: A good cover artist will know what this is and what they need to account for, when creating this stuff—   R: Or an experienced cover artist, you know? Someone might be an amazing illustrator but not really understand how a printing press works, if they haven’t worked with printing things themselves. Now, if they’ve ever worked printing posters of their work, they’ve probably run into this before. It’s incredibly frustrating. But it can be adjusted.    So you work with them and, frankly, you get your final cover art and sometimes it’s the first time you’ve seen these colors in this image. So it’s not out of the question to come back and say, “These colors are a problem because, as we’ve described in the contract, this is for print as well as eBook. I need this to look good in print,” and they’re not gonna want it to look crappy in print, either.   K: Yeah, of course not. Their name is on it.   R: Yeah, they might have asked you for a copy, you know? And they want to put it on their shelf and they wanna be proud of it. But one thing you can do, to improve the way color looks, is choose the finish on your paper when you are setting up your cover. That’s something that you can sort of do to brighten colors or adjust colors based on an effect that you want. I think you’ll see spot lamination sometimes on offset printing presses and such because it can do this and it looks really nice.   So we’ve looked at resolution and print size, and we’ve checked for gamut warnings. Hopefully now your image is all set, you know it’s the right size. It’s going to print out without pixelating and it’s going to print out without color-shifting too much. And now you want to actually set it up for layout because during this process you’ve also been working on the book.   You’ve probably gotten your copy edits back. You’ve been making adjustments. You had to add a chapter. You realized your glossary wasn’t in the file. You’re finally getting to the point where you’re like, “Alright, this thing’s ready to go.”   K: Ha. I am… coming close to being maybe done with this.   R: I sure hope.   [K laughs]   R: So you have your final page count and now you can get your final spine width. And once you have your final spine width, then you can really make this cover done. Because up until the point where you know your final spine width, everything is just guessing or adjustments or whatever. You might have sent it off to print through Lulu and you had a slightly less done version of the manuscript that you wanted to see in print, and sort of see what this might look like, even if it wasn’t the final. Now you have the final manuscript and you know this is gonna be 495 pages.   K: Yep.   R: This is what it’s going to be, because I am so done with this.    And now you go to your printer and you say—   K: “Hello, here is this thing that I am sick of looking at. Can you give it physical form so I can look at it all the time?”   R: Well, yes, but you do need to know that spine width. So the way that you calculate spine width is by taking the pages per inch of the paper stock that you’ve selected. Now, this is… I’m starting with the nitty gritty and I’m starting with the off-set printing method where you actually have a relationship with the printer and you have chosen a paper stock.   K: Yes.   R: And they tell you it is this many pages per inch. You take your total page count and you divide it by your pages per inch.   K, exhausted: Rekka, you didn’t tell me there was gonna be math involved in this.   R, sympathetic: I know, I know. I was a graphic designer. I wasn’t supposed to have to do math. But I have to do math with alarming frequency. I’m gonna pull up some actual specs. How’s that sound?   K: Uh, while Rekka’s looking up some… some specs here. So when we went to the Nebulas last year, we wanted to get some advance copies of Salvage to hand out there, except that the printer that we normally go through was not going to be able to have them finished and shipped directly to the hotel in time. So instead, what we did was we found a local printer in Los Angeles, had them print it and then they actually just delivered it right to the hotel. They didn’t even need to ship it. Except that they used a really, really nice paper.   R: It was so nice.   K: Beautiful. It was gorgeous. The book ended up about an inch thicker than the actual finished book because the thickness of the paper was so much bigger.   R: I’m pretty sure we have photos of this on Instagram somewhere already.   K: Probably. We have joked about this a lot, yeah.   R: So, a sixty-pound paper, and I’m not even gonna go into how they determine what’s a pound of paper, that is listed on these specs, is 435 pages per inch. So your 495 page book is divided by 435 fo the pages per inch, and the resulting spine width—I go for the thousandth—so 1.137 and that will give you your spine width. So in the center of your page layout is your 1.137 inch-wide rectangle which represents your spine. (This is in your template.) And to either side of that, you’re going to add the width of your total trim size.    So my books are 5 ½ inches by 8 ½ inches, so the width is 5 ½ and you add that to that number twice, and now you have your total width of your cover, if it were flat and had no pages inside it.   K: So what you’re getting, then, is if I pulled the cover off a book—   R: Don’t you dare.   K: I would never. But if I did. If I was a soulless monster and I did that and I laid it out flat, that is the total measurements of what this is.   R: From right to left.   K: Okay.   R: Okay. So that is the spine width, plus the cover of the trim size. In your image itself, or your layout file, you’re going to have to crop out parts of the image that don’t fit because most artists don’t give you exactly the right size. Because you don’t know your spine width. They’re just going to give you a roughly book-shaped thing from their experience. I’ve gotten final cover art from people, as I said, from clients, and they give me the final cover art from the artist, and they give you too much space. And you want too much space, but you are going to have to decide where that space is coming off from in your final layout.   So what I use is a program called InDesign, and I set my InDesign layout to the trim size, 11.758 and I’m just giving you these hard numbers—if you’re trying to follow along and you actually try to create the file, you’ll see what I mean. So that’s the width, and the height is the height of the book trim size, for my books like I said. They’re 5 ½ wide by 8 ½ tall, trimmed. So my trim size is 8 ½ tall.   K: It’s funny because we’re throwing out all these measurements and there are people probably sitting at home going, “Oh, okay, so that’s a book size.” If you own a lot of books, like I do, I want you to go to your bookshelf and try to figure out how many of those books are exactly the same size.   R: Right.   K: There really isn’t a standard size for books. And some of them—I’ve seen books that, sometimes the book is a little taller than what I would normally expect of a book and I imagine that’s because it was a really big book and they wanted to maybe have to minimize some of the pages because those start to get expensive to print after a while.   R: I mean, that’s where the 6x9 trade paperback size came from, is an attempt to reduce the paper needed to fill a book.   K: Mhm.   R: If you have large print books, you’re going to find that they’re generally also larger-sized because that reduces the need for paper once you increase the font size and it takes more pages to tell the story.   [35:06]    K: That said, though, that’s the reason why they’re more expensive.   R: Yeah, and you don’t want it to feel cramped just because you got a larger font size. So, yeah, you pick your book size by going through your bookshelves and finding a book that feels like you want your book to feel. In your hand, what size, and all that kind of stuff.   I picked 5 ½ by 8 ½ and the process that I’ve described is how a layout for that size book, with this thickness of paper that we’re discussing, is how that would work. And it’s going to be different the more of these elements that you change and go with, you know, different options.   Just to finish setting up this file, the trim size is the size of the file layout. I also specify in my file set-up that I want an eighth of an inch, .125, bleed all around the edge.   K: Mhm.   R: Then, when you output the file, you can specify that you want to include the bleed and add crop marks and all the things that the printer needs. And that will be in their specifications, so you want to pay attention to the specifications for the printer you are using because they’re all different.    Some are very similar, but they’re also all different.   K: They’re not all—it’s snowflakes.    R: Yeah. So if you’re using a printer and you know who they are, I would definitely suggest you just go and see if they have a template. If you’re using an off-set printer, then that printer will help you set up a file. If you are going with IngramSpark or KDP or Lulu, they will all provide you with a cover template. There’s usually a form and you put in what paper you choose, what binding size you’re going with, and how many pages you have and they’ll give you a file that you can use to set this up.   K: Yeah, they’ll do the calculations for you, essentially.   R: Yeah, and they you can take that and you can either use those calculations in a custom file that you set up, or give it to your designer and they will either use that or set up their own file the way they like it set up.   Now you have this layout and, let me tell you, the spine should be centered in it. If your spine is slightly off-center, then your spine is going to be slightly off-center, and I don’t mean the part of the book that folds, I mean where your title in the spine shows up will be off-center. So, the easiest thing to do is just start from the spine and work your way out.   K: Books and people, we want the spines to be nice and centered.   R: And then, again, go to your books on your shelf and take a ruler and measure how far things are from the edge of the book. How far they are from the edge of the folds. How wide the title is across. How far away the byline is. Stuff like that. Use that to guide you if this is your first time doing it—but if it’s your first time doing it—   K: If all of this sounds really complicated to you, it is. And maybe consider paying someone to do it for you. R: There is nothing wrong with recognizing that the amount of time it would take to learn to do something properly is worth a certain amount of money to you.   K: Absolutely.   R: It’s absolutely true.   K: And by the way, if you decide, “Hey, you know what? I’m gonna do this a lot, I really just wanna learn this,” there’s online classes. There’s ways, there’s tutorials, there’s resources out there to do this. That said, you can watch all of the tutorials and YouTube videos you want, if you can’t draw a straight line using a ruler, maybe this isn’t the right thing for you to be doing.   R: I’ve always said that somebody shouldn’t make the first website they build a website for a client. And I don’t think you should make the first cover you print, the launch of your debut novel. You know?   K: Yeah, well. R: There are other things to consider for your cover, such as—we’ve already mentioned what if it’s a hardcover with a jacket?   K: Mhm.   R: Then there’s something to consider, which is the stamped cloth underneath that jacket. What is that going to look like? Are you going to go for foil printing? Are you going to go for UV printing? Are you going to go for embossing? What other treatments are going to happen to your cover? And then you need to pick a printer who’s capable of doing them. And you’re also going to need to be able to provide them with any of those stamps they need, you need to give them a guide of what that’s going to look like.   Now, if they are a very full-service, off-set, traditional art house printer, they may include all of these kinds of decisions and such in their pricing of their package to you. But you need to know what’s on you to come up with and what’s on them, if it’s print-on-demand, they expect you to provide everything.   K: Yeah, and just to be clear, when Rekka’s talking about an off-set printer, this is somebody who you’re going to, in theory, do a run of books with. You’re not doing one here, you’re doing like five hundred.   R: At least.   K: At least. Minimum. Yeah. And in that case, you’re gonna have somebody at the printer who gets these files and looks at them and checks and goes, “What about this? What about this?”   You’re gonna have sort of a consultant there, if you will.   R: Yeah, they’re gonna give you paper samples and you’re gonna feel them and you’re gonna go, “Oh my gosh! That paper manages to feel like leather, how did you do that?” Those aren’t options you’re going to get from even IngramSpark who will do a hardcover with a jacket wrap for you, print-on-demand, but print-on-demand is not going to give you these bespoke, very luxurious options that you can get from an off-set printer. Like, Saga Press has some amazing covers and they also do amazing things with the print treatment of them.   So if any of the books on your shelf are Saga Press, just go hold them, you know?   K: Yeah, just to be clear. I apologize, I think we didn’t quite define this at the start of this episode. If you’re unaware, POD is print-on-demand, it is the most expensive way to generate a book because what’s happening is someone is going online and saying, “I want to buy this book. I want it in paperback.” And if it’s set up for print-on-demand, it’s just going into a computer, essentially, where it’s saying, “Yes, one of Book ABC,” printing it, going into a box, and being mailed to someone.    It is very possible the first person to physically handle that book will be the person that bought it.   R: Right.   K: There’s no quality check there, there’s no control, there’s no consultation with a printer.   R: I mean, there’s supposed to be, but let’s be real.   K: There’s not. So, just be aware. Look, print-on-demand is a fantastic thing that’s really made it great for a lot of self-published and small prints.   R: Indie, yeah.   K: Indie. To get paperback, and even hardcover in some instances, books out into the hands of their readers. But it is not the same as going for making a large print run where you actually sit down and talk with someone and design this and figure out what the book is gonna look like.   R: You could always take this to an off-set printer. A printer in your area will happily print your book project for you, and any time in the future, past, present. But POD meant you could list it on Amazon and not have to pay upfront for warehousing and printing for this book. Because if you keep the book at a distributor, you’ve gotta pay that distributor to hold onto your book because that’s precious space they could be filling with New York Times Bestsellers, you know?   Print-on-demand meant you didn’t need to pay for warehousing for copies that may or may not ever sell. And you’ve heard the stories of people who had their own books printed and then they sat in the garage for years until they’d discovered they’d gone moldy and they threw ‘em all out, or they just moved and threw ‘em all out because they weren’t selling.   There was a time when printing your own book meant you were hand-selling out of the back of your car, or taking them to events and trying to sell as many copies as you could, just to get rid of them basically, to get your life back, get your house back kinda thing. So POD has made all of that a luxury. People who can afford it might still do that, but you don’t have to anymore.   So, yes. A copy of your book might suddenly jump from $1.36 to print, to more like $5.46 to print and that all comes out of your cut, but it still gives you a share of the profit, as opposed to, “Well, my garage still has 736 more copies. I haven’t profited on this book yet.” You know?   K: Yeah.   R: Obviously, there’s a lot more to this than I’ve described. I apologize, it’s hard for me to describe it because I do a lot of it automatically these days. And a lot of it also depends on the book itself. So the page count, the trim size, the treatments you’ve decided on and how late in the game you’re doing all of this.   K: Yeah.   R: But what I do recommend is that at any point that you are stopping and waiting for the next stage, as I said, it might only cost you six bucks to print the thing, send off for another proof if you’ve changed anything. Don’t be surprised. Because you don’t wanna find out when you order your first ten author copies that your title is off-center. Because you forgot about trim size and safety zones and all that kinda stuff.   I definitely recommend, as many times as you make what you think are the final change, that you send off for a print proof. And then track the changes because you’re probably gonna keep fiddling with the thing. Track the changes you make so that when that print proof arrives, you know what you might have already changed, so that you’re not adjusting your more recent file based on what you see on that cover, forgetting that you already fixed that your title was off-center or whatever.   K: So, you know, this is another theme of this show. Read the contract. Track your changes.   R: And get proofs often.   K: Yeah. But there’s one thing we didn’t really talk about that is still relevant to formatting and displaying covers, which is what if you are just doing this digital only or what if you need digital images?   R: So, the eBook cover is essentially a crop of your print book on the front side of it. But there are things to consider beyond just, “Okay, I cut off the spine and the back cover.” You also want to make sure that it’s legible.   K: Yeah.   R: So, in this digital age there are a lot of different thumbnail sizes that are out there and you can look up the various—You can basically just go by Amazon because they have like five different thumbnail sizes, depending on where it’s going to appear.   K: Exactly, just scroll through. There’s a big difference, now. We’ve just spent all of this time about, talking about making your print book look beautiful and everything so somebody will see it in a store and pick it up and go, “My goodness. I find myself attracted to this book. I think I am interested in it.” Now it’s one of however many thumbnails are splashed across a computer screen.   R: Yep.   K: You’re trying to make the cover look appealing in a different way now.   R: Not only appealing, but legible.   K: Yes. Legible is important, yes.   R: The smaller you go, the more of your tiny details are handed over to pixels to try to render them. And if you’ve ever seen pixel art, you know how roughly things get translated as you shrink down in size. You want to, potentially, come up with a slightly different version for your digital product than you might even include in your eBook itself.   And I’ll use the anecdote from Parvus is that Annihilation Aria, which came out from Parvus this summer, has a different print cover than it has for its digital product image in the online stores.   K: Speaking of neon and trying to make sure it shows through well.   R: Speaking of gamut warnings.   K: Yeah.   R: We had to deal with that. But also the cover for the print book, the text is outlined.   K: It’s meant to look like neon sign, yeah.   R: But on the thumbnail size, it almost completely vanished.   K: It was very difficult when we were putting covers up for advanced purchases. It was funny because I knew what it said and was supposed to look like, and your eyes start playing tricks on you because you’re seeing exactly what you expect to see. But then—yeah.   R: And that’s a lesson for you, as the person who’s been staring at this for a really long time, is: show it to someone else. Chances are you already know what you think you want it to look like, and you might not notice the things that are either mistakes or not translating to that size as well as you want them to. So you can get a list of the different sizes that Amazon will reduce your image to and that’s all from the product image, which is the eBook cover you upload to KDP, for example.   K: Okay.   R: Or to Draft to Digital, or if you directly to Barnes and Nobles, to their publishing service for eBooks. But it’s not the cover that’s going to be in your eBook when somebody loads it up on their eReader. So you can set the eBook cover to look as close to the print cover as you want, and keep that in your eBook file, associated with that package of files that you’ve created for your eBook. We have a whole episode about that, go check that out.   But your product image that you upload separately is going to be the one that gets reduced to those thumbnail sizes. So you can control how that image displays. Now, granted, when somebody goes to your product page and they’re now looking at the big version of your image, yeah, now you’re getting an image that might not look like the version that’s on your print cover or inside your eBook, but it’s worth it if it brings people to the page because they are attracted to that thumbnail size in their search results.   K: Just go on Amazon and look through, go on the top bestsellers and just scroll through. And I want you to think about how many of those, even though those ones are probably a decent size, you’re having to stop and squint at.   R: Right. So in the case of Annihilation Aria, what we did was we filled in the outlines with the color and we just made it a solid block neon text.   K: Much easier to read.   R: It worked out much, much better. It looks great as a thumbnail, it still is beautiful on the print cover, when you’re holding it you’re like, “That’s a nice cover!” But the thumbnail is doing its job and the cover is doing its job and you don’t wanna confuse or conflate what those jobs are.   K: Yeah. It’s, um… tricky is a word for it. No, it’s, what I was saying is I was looking at this, “I don’t know what you’re talking about, this looks fine.” I knew what this cover was supposed to look like, my brain was filling in the gaps. So, as Rekka said, get somebody else to look at this and make sure that these are things that, to somebody who doesn’t know what they’re looking at, are legible, are getting across the message or the image that you want it to.   R: Right. Exactly. Also, there’s the audiobook version. And your titling from your artist being on a separate layer is definitely going to come in handy now because the audiobook preview, as set up by the tradition of printing these on CDs, not even the cassettes.    K: Yeah.   [50:33]   R: I mean, you could go back to cassettes, but it was the CD that sort of set the standard.   K: And they were square.   R: And they were square.   K: I remember that audiobooks sometimes had different covers, if you will, than the actual book itself. If you went to the library, I remember it was like the paper cases with all the CDs in it?   R: Mhm.   K: So then they’d just take that image, that was set up for the CD case, and put that as the thumbnail online.   R: A lot of the time, our first audiobooks that we played digitally, were getting played in an .mp3 player or in iTunes. So they were already set up for square images. Because, again, CD covers.   K: Yes.   R: So, part of the reason that a lot of audiobooks have different cover artwork, just completely different, is because of rights management. So, if a different company made the audiobook than printed the book, they might not be very friendly and share the rights to the cover art, as Parvus did.   Dreamscape is the audiobook publisher for Annihilation Aria and Parvus was happy to share the artwork because it looks more professional if everybody’s using the same artwork.   K: But that’s not always the case. Or, sometimes, maybe the publishing house says, “Well, we’ll license this to you, but it’s gonna be a ridiculous amount of money.”   R: Right.   K: And then, you know, the audiobook production side of things go, “Oh, well. That’s cool. We don’t feel like paying that.”   R: “We’ll make something that’s kind of similar,” you know, and then they go off and they do it themselves. To better or worse effect.   K: Yep.   R: And other times you’ll see an audiobook where, clearly, they didn’t have a wrap-around cover art or they didn’t have the layers, so you get this weird blurry effect to either side. Or I know The Aeronaut’s Windless, if you look really closely at that audiobook cover, somebody went in with the Photoshop stamp tool and made the cover art as square as they could. It survives a brief glance, but it’s not ideal.   So, if you have your cover and the spine copy isn’t already in the way, or whatever, you can just move the text to somewhere a little more central. SOmetimes the central figure on your cover, if you want it to be in there, now has to be off to the side, a little bit, of your title. Or some things gotta move and that’s fine. You can do that, make those adjustments, do a hundred iterations until you find what works, but only if you have layers and your text treatment isn’t flat on your background illustration.   K: Yeah. So, well… I can’t say that’s everything, because that is not everything. That is not even close.   R: It’s really not. I mean, we didn’t even get into back-cover copy placement and all this other stuff, but…   K: Yeah, but, this is sort of to give you an idea of how this happens. Print books don’t just magically manifest after you finish writing it. There are a lot of people that go into putting together a book and making sure that it looks good after it’s done.   R: I mean, there’s sometimes a very small, very hard-working tiny team of people. It’s not always a ton of people and, if you’re a self-publisher, don’t think that you can’t do this by yourself—   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: —but you do want to get some experience before you commit to saying that you are good at this and you should continue to do it.    K: “I am making a good decision.”   [Both laugh]   R: Yes.   K: But, no, and it’s true and the thing is that someone like Rekka can do all of this, you know, on her own. But, again, Rekka went to school for this. This is something that took her years of time, experience, and learning to master.   R: I mean, and I didn’t go to school for book cover production—   K: Well, no, but yeah.   R: I mean, I made book covers as part of my college education, but it was more about understanding what makes things legible and what makes thing attractive to the eye. What makes a person’s eye move across the page the way you control. And all those things are now instinctive and go into what I do when I set up these files, which is why I can’t even describe, sometimes, what my process is. Which is kind of like, you know, you walk up to an artist and you say, “How do you draw like that?” Well, they can’t answer that question.   K: Yeah, yeah.   R: So there’s a lot that goes into it and, yes, if you are willing to put the time in to learn, you can do this. Just like I could have illustrated my own book cover, but I knew the time that it would take me to develop a style that I wanted for my book cover, was not worth taking that time away from my writing.    K: Mhm.   R: This has always disappointed my mother, that I didn’t draw my own book cover illustration.   K: Eh, there’s still time.   R: And—But! The point was, the style I wanted was not my inherent style.    K: Mhm.   R: And so I would have to spend months and years developing the style that I did want, or I can make an investment to have a professional whose style already was what I wanted do the cover for me and allow me to go back and do what I was good at. It’s okay to not be amazing at everything.   K: Who said that?   R: I dunno, I just did.   [Both laugh]   K: So that’s kind of rounding out book cover production. If you take away anything, I hope it is that this is not the easy part of this.   R, laughing: No.   K: I think everybody goes, “I’m just gonna have the cover and it’s gonna be so awesome and it’s gonna be on the book.” … Yes. But there’s a lot of steps to get to the part where it’s on the book and you can actually hold it in your hand.   R: And there’s a lot of steps to get to the part where it’s awesome.   K: And that, yes.   R: Yeah.   K: Well, I think that’s our episode.   R: I think it’s gotta be our episode, because we’re now running a little bit long. So, yeah! There’s a lot here and if you were trying to take notes, I apologize. But I wanted to get in this habit of, every now and then, let’s just get real technical about this.   K: I think we think about a lot of making books in very non-quantitative terms. Where we’re like, “Yeah, and then you have to figure this out and you’ve gotta decide about this character and this plot point,” and there are some parts that are technical about this. Where it’s like, “Listen, you have to do this,” and this is how you measure it.   R: You know, unfortunately, some things just, if you want the book to not look like a pile of messy paper glued into a vaguely book-shaped thing, then you want to follow this process because that’s the way that it’s all set up. That’s how you get that result. There aren’t too many ways to be extra creative about this aspect of things.   K: Yes. You know, this was more of a technical episode, but hopefully it was, as always, educational and informative. And entertaining.   R: And slightly overwhelming.   K: And overwhelming, yes.   R: It’s important that I sound like what I do could only be done by me. I mean, that’s how I keep food on the table.   K: And hopefully this hasn’t scared you off from trying to do this.   R: I mean, play around with it! Like I said, Lulu’s there, you can order one book at a time. See what happens.   K: And if you do, let us know how it goes.   R: Yes! Show us your books, if you’re a publisher. What covers have you put together and formatted and, you know, sent to fulfillment yourself? We’d love to see them!   K: Yep, and you can find us…   R: Oh, you can! Can’t you? We are @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram, and you can find us at wmbcast.com for all our old episodes, and you can also find us and support us at Patreon.com/wmbcast, where you can thank us for all our technical, helpful, overwhelming knowledge.   K, laughs: Or you can just scream at us.   R: Yes. And you can share these episodes or any episode that you think would help a friend out and leave a rating and review, please, on Apple Podcasts, because that is just how this apple pie is made.   K: Feeeeed the algorithm.   R: Yep. Absolutely. Oh, speaking of which, we are now on Amazon podcasts.   K: Oh.   R: Did you even know that was a thing?   K: I didn’t, no.   R: Well, we are there. We got listed.   K: Okay!   R: So wherever you go for your podcasts, please feel free to listen there. But, when you leave ratings and review, at least for now, Apple podcasts is still where we want them. Once Amazon gets in the game, you know how it goes, but…   K: I’m looking forward to an Apple-Amazon Deathmatch.   R: It’ll be like the Fast Food Wars only it’s just like the Algorithm Wars.   K: Yeah, I think that is where we’re going. Yeah… Well, everyone, thanks very much for listening and we’ll see you in a couple weeks.   R: Take care, everyone.   [outro music plays]

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 44: Theme and Character Arcs transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about publishing—and writing. And sometimes going backward and revising. Whoops. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m acquisitions editor, I, Kaelyn Considine, at Parvus Press.   R: How dare you.   [Both laugh]   K: It’s the heat. It’s the heat and then quarantine.   R: The heat is definitely getting to us. We have to turn off the AC to record these, folks, so pity us.   K: Hi, everyone! No, today we actually have, I think, an interesting episode. We are going based off a Twitter question we got from one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, about themes and character arcs and how to manage them and make them good in your story.   R: And by good, we mean strong or tight or—   K: Pervasive, efficient—   R: Pervasive. [giggles]   K: What are some other words we use to describe them here? Lots of very positive adjectives, to be sure.   R: Mhm, yeah.   K: You want your character arcs tight and your themes pervasive.   R: Yup.  K: It’s kind of what we’re left with here. Anyway, we had a lot of fun talking about this because it’s something that I really enjoy working with authors on.   R: Yeah, when Kaelyn gets a novel manuscripts, this is what she dives in and gets to.   K: It is, yeah. This is at the very developmental level and I think anybody who’s a writer that’s listening to this and has submitted and gotten rejections has probably, at some point, gotten a note to “work on their themes or character arcs.”   R: Mhm.   K: Which is just so helpful and specific.   R: That’s why they call them form rejections.   K: Yes. So, we spent a lot of time in this talking about, first of all, what are these themes and character arcs? And how do you work on them? A lot of fun examples in movies and shows and, you know, like I said this is one of my favorite things about editing, is working on these parts of the book.   R: See, Kaelyn thought that she could ask me to restrain her, but the fact is I also love these, so we did go on a little bit. But I think we’ve had longer episodes. We’re fine.   K: Definitely, yeah. We were like kids in a candy shop for this, to be sure.   R: That’s true.   K: Anyway, so take a listen. We hope this is helpful, if this is something you’ve been struggling with in your writing process, and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: I don’t know what I could’ve hit. That’s upsetting. Anyway! So, if my elbow hit something is that a character arc or is that a theme?   R: I think that’s a theme. Or it might be a story element…   K: It could be a plotline. Is the elbow a character?   R: Is the elbow haunted?   K: I mean, I assume so. It’s mine, yes. Anyway, today we’re talking about—one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, sent us a question about, I don’t know. Do we wanna read the question?   R: I’m gonna summarize it. Basically, Ashley was working on a short fiction piece and was suggested to, by an editor, that the theme and character arc could use some clarification. So, what the heck does that mean? That’s feedback that people will see.   K: That’s very common feedback, actually. Probably, I think, a lot of people listening to this who have submitted something either to an agent or an editor, probably got feedback that may have specifically said character arc and theme.   R: Yeah. And I think this one might have been for a publication, so short fiction market. And you’re gonna get that kind of stuff a lot because their second-tier response is going to be, “Your story almost made it, you could’ve tightened this up,” you know?   K: Yeah, and also, especially with short fiction, you’re gonna see that more because you have to do a lot in a short amount of time.   R: Yeah.   K: Now that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to indicate that you won’t see this with long-form fiction because, believe me, you will. I’ve said it multiple times myself—   R: It might be easier to go astray with a long novel.   K: It’s very true. So, why is it these two things, a lot, that you hear? Because they’re a little, especially in the case of themes, they’re a little nebulous and not as easy to pin down. A plot is, I think, a lot of times easier because it’s the story. When you sit down to write an outline, what you’re outlining is usually the plot.    R: It’s concrete, it’s easy to point at and go, “That is part of the plot. That is a thing that happens and it happens in an order and if that order goes awry then it’s not a plot anymore.”   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say, was that when you’re outlining something and it’s the plot, it’s an order of actions happening in sequence, or maybe out of sequence, depending on how you’re writing, but in how they’re going to be presented in the final book or short story, or what have you.   So, before we get started, let’s kinda define some things here. So a plot, obviously, we know what a plot is. That is not a character arc, it is not a theme. A plot is the elements of a story that take place and happen to the characters. That is a very broad definition, obviously, but plots are sequences on actions and things that happen.   R: Yeah, I’ve even heard it defined as a sequence of actions, reactions, and complicating factors.   K: Yes, that’s a really good way to describe it. Themes and character arcs, and it’s funny because character arcs and plots get confused together and then themes and morals get confused together. A theme is not a moral, a moral is, we’re talking strictly in terms of terms in literature. A moral is a lesson that is learned. A moral is the kid sticks his hand in the cookie jar when he’s not supposed to, it gets stuck, he breaks the cookie jar and has cuts on his hand and his mom finds out he was doing all of this anyway.    So what has he learned? He has learned to listen to his mother because maybe it’s not just that she doesn’t want him to eat cookies when he shouldn’t, maybe it’s that he could get hurt. That is a moral. That is actions and the plot leading up to a character changing themselves because they learned something. That is not a theme.So, now that we have—   R: It’s a character arc though.   K: It certainly could be.   R: Yeah.   K: And so that’s why I’m saying, plots and character arcs and themes and morals can get confused. So now that we’ve established what we’re not talking about, let’s talk about what we are talking about.   And let’s start with themes because that one is a little more nebulous, I think. A theme in a story is, at its basis level, an underlying message. It’s a big idea.   R: Mhm.   K: It is conceptual. It’s things that do not physically, tangibly exist in the world. If you are saying, “Yes, the theme is this,” and a lot of times, if it’s something you can actually touch, that’s probably not actually a theme.   R: So my theme is not coffee?   K: Your theme might be coffee, Rekka.   R: I was gonna say! You’re speaking in universals here, but I just don’t feel like I can relate to what you’re saying.   K: Your—your theme might be coffee. [laughs] Now, somebody might—you might come in and say, “What about the ocean? What if the theme of this story is the ocean?” Well, my answer to that is that the theme of the story is probably not the ocean.   The theme of the story might be travel or man versus nature or the horror of the unknown, and the ocean just happens to embody that.   R: Yup.   K: Again, these are Big Ideas. These are things that you cannot touch, feel, or hold. So things like love, death, good versus evil, a lot of coming of age stories. Stories of rebellion and overthrowing corrupt systems of government. Survival. These are themes. And those are big themes. You can have smaller ones like… family. Finding things that are lost.   R: Appreciating what you had all along, kind of thing,   K: Exactly, yes. Realizing that home was really where you wanted to be this whole time.   R: Yeah. Adventure was the friends you made along the way.      K: Exactly, yes. The other thing that I always tell people when trying to identify themes in their story and bring them forward a little more, is what do you want the reader to walk away thinking, feeling, or knowing? If the theme of your story is: the adventure was the friends you made along the way, then you want the reader to go, “You know what? I really need to go spend some more time with my friends and do something fun with them.”   R: Mhm.   [09:55]   K: Or “ I need to go out and make some new friends,” or “I’m gonna go have an adventure and see if I make any new friends.”   R: Yeah.   K: Your—if, you know, the theme is something like death and loss, maybe you want the reader to leave feeling really sad and depressed and hopeless, staring into the void of existence.   R: You monster.   K: Hey, I mean we’ve all read a book like that.   R, laughing: Yes. In high school. They were required reading.    K: Ohh, oh yeah.   R: So, another way to phrase this or to think about it is to—say, your example of the ocean and say, “Okay, but that’s still a noun.” If you were to remove the noun, what’s left? What’s underneath that? If the setting and the characters are the carpet and you pull up the carpet, what’s underneath it? What is the most fundamental, base human relatable thing that you’re communicating with this story?   K: And that’s what makes themes so difficult to manage and to bring forward in stories, is that they are intangible. You can’t—There’s a frequently said thing that editors use which is, “Show me, don’t tell me.” R: Right.   K: And that is—   R: We should have an episode on that.   K, laughs: Yeah. But that is themes. You can’t put a sentence in there saying, “And the theme is: love.” No, you need—it’s something that has to be woven through your story for the reader to pick up on their own. You shouldn’t have to tell the reader what the theme of this story is.    So, now, before we go too far down that line, let’s kinda talk about character arcs and what is a character arc? They’re definitely a little more tangible, if you will, than themes. You can sit down—and I encourage people to sit down and write out a character arc. Rekka, you’ve done this a few times.   R: A few...yes. Just a couple.    K: Just a few. But a character arc is partially, mostly, a lot of times, an inner journey. It’s a transforma—   R: It’s a transformation. Ah, there we go.   K: It’s a transformation of the character over the course of the story. We’re seeing them start out a certain way, the plot affects them, and they have to change and adapt accordingly. And some definitions of this will say it must be a permanent change. I don’t buy into that because I don’t think that everything needs to be a fundamental personality shift.   R: Well, sometimes you just really wanna write a really long series and that character’s gonna have to learn that lesson more than once.   K: Yeah… Hey, nobody said these characters have to be smart!   R: Yeah, they don’t have to grow ever upward.   K: No, character arc is something. Theme has been what it is for a long time. Character arc is something that, I think, the standards and definitions of it have shifted a little bit over time. In fiction, especially, if you go back to when literature was first being really defined and written about and studied, you’ll find a lot of stuff that says, “Well, a character arc must have these elements: the character must start here; they must encounter or create a problem for themselves; they must come up with a way to overcome that problem, or get the thing that they need; they must suffer a setback; they must recover from the setback; they must resolve the storyline.”   R: And usually in a Three Act, there’s a second setback that’s extra bad.   K: Yeah, yes. I don’t agree with this. I think that there’s no such thing as a formulaic character arc.   R: Right. And, for one, that’s a very Western oriented, Western-centric character arc. You’re going to travel outside Western stories, you’re going to see different character arcs.   K: I would make the argument that character arcs that are a very Western thing that can be applied to a lot of stories because the nature of stories has character arcs, but—   R: Well, I would argue that the nature of Western civilization is colonialism and that sure is going in and applying new rules to other people’s stuff, so. [laughs]   K: Absolutely.    R: So burn down character arcs, got it.   K: Yeah. No, no. And, look, what makes stories interesting is seeing the people in them grow and change. The degree to which that happens varies wildly across all genres and all cultures and how—I’ve had literature professors that said, “If your character is not X amount different by the end of the story, then that’s not a successful character arc,” and I think that’s bullshit.   Because character arcs, which are obviously very tied to character development, do not necessarily need to be a fundamental shift in personality.   R: So, why don’t we start talking a little bit examples. We named one off the air, before we started recording, which was basically any character that Harrison Ford plays.   K, laughing: Yeah!   R: Do any of those characters fundamentally change across the time spent on screen?   K: Well, let’s scale it down a bit to characters Harrison Ford plays that appear in multiple movies. Franchise Harrison Ford characters.    R: Okay, so we’re talking Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and then Jack Ryan.    K: Okay, well I don’t know anything about Jack Ryan, so I’m not gonna be able to help there.   [15:57]      R: Basically, he’s—once again, we’re talking about uber-competent male action heroes, basically.   K: I am going to focus primarily on Indiana Jones and Han Solo because that’s an interesting dichotomy. One of them has a character arc, the other absolutely does not. Spoiler alert: Indiana Jones does not really have much of a character arc.   R: Um, as we said, his character arc is… he needs a thing, he has a competitor for the thing, the competitor gives him a setback, he overcomes, approaches again, has a bigger setback, and then he gets the thing. It’s not a personal growth, it is his striding toward a goal.   K: Yes, but that is his plot.   R: That is also the movie plot, but I’m just saying—is it a flattening of the character arc with the plot, when the character doesn’t change very much?   K: It is because Indiana Jones does not change over the course of the story. He ends and begins every movie with, It Belongs in A Museum.    [both laugh]   R: Fortune over ___, kid.   K: Yeah, that’s Indiana Jones. It’s It Belongs in A Museum or I Don’t Want the Nazis to Have This. That is everything motivating Indiana Jones throughout all of his movies. Han Solo, on the other hand, does have a character arc. Han Solo starts out as a smuggler and a guy who, according to his prequel, was running drugs.    R: Mhm.   K: And he eventually becomes somebody who, instead of just living this sort of private-smuggler lifestyle—   R: Out for himself.   K: Yeah! Out for himself. Has friends and family that he grows to care about. And maybe he’s not as gung-ho Freedom Fighter as they are, but he certainly takes their values and their goals into account and wants to help them and be successful in that. Then he walks into a lightsaber—but we’ll, you know… that’s… [laughs] But! It is a different, it’s another downswing on the character arc is that we see that Han Solo, at the end of the day, is still Han Solo.   R: Mhm.   K: Because what happens? He goes back to smuggling pirate loner lifestyle with Chewbacca. We pick up with him again and, yeah, he’s different but of course he is, he’s older. So there, again, successful character arc! But what he’s showing us is that, at the end of the day, this is what he does and this is what he knows and this is what he’s good at.   R: Well, but, the question is, is he good at it or is he Chewbacca’s sidekick.   K, laughing: How good he is is a different query.   R: Okay, so—   K: Actually, real quick sidebar, if you think about it, everything we’ve seen of Han Solo, he’s not actually a very good smuggler.   R: No, he’s terrible! So the question is, does your character start from a default? And what we’re saying here is Han Solo, his default is smuggler, loner, trying to make the next paycheck and keep himself out of trouble.   K: Scruffy-faced nerf-herder.   R: Whenever he is thrown into the mix with people who are potential friends, they mess up his default and pull him away from that. But send an obstacle into his path—like a son—and he reverts back to his default when he doesn’t know how to cope.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, Han Solo is actually, and I think, primarily accidentally, a very successful and good example of a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Indiana Jones: It Belongs in A Museum or Stop The Nazis.   R: I think he’s intentionally left out of the character arc.   K: Yeah, I mean—but this is the thing, that’s not what those stories are about.   R: Right. That’s to the point of this question is, when you are told to tighten up a character arc or a theme, you do need to know what kind of story you’re telling before you decide how deep into character arcs and themes you need to dive. I mean, you might get this feedback from one person, and they might be off the mark for what you were trying to do with your story.   K: Mhm.   R: Which can also tell you, maybe you need to extract a little of that character arc and not make it feel like it’s so much about developing a character, if you are just telling a whip-cracking, gun-toting archaeologist tale. Don’t do that. Archaeologists don’t appreciate it.   K, laughing: Yeah, that’s uh—   R: Another episode.   K: In case anyone was confused at home, that’s not what archaeology’s actually like, sadly. Anyway, now that we’ve talked about what character arcs and themes are, why are these two things that people are frequently told to tighten up? And frequently told to tighten them together?   We’ve already said that character arcs are closer to plots, themes are closer to morals, but they’re not the same thing. So how do character arcs and themes overlap? Themes motivate and drive characters. This feeds both the plot and the character arc. The plot, obviously, because based on the theme, and therefore the character’s motivation, the character will be making that will affect both the plot and their character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: That’s where things start to get a little tricky. Those two are very closely intertwined. Because obviously the plot, in a lot of cases, is dependent upon what the character is doing. Their choices and decisions dictate what happens next in the story.   So then, drill down for that, what is influencing their decision-making, their motivation? And where is the motivation coming from? And that’s where you start to get to the themes of the story. So, if one of the themes of your story is survival and, let’s think of—   R: Alien.   K: Okay, that’s a more fun example. I was gonna say The Hatchet, remember that book we all had to read in middle school?   R: Yeah, we’re not doing that, we’re doing Alien.   K: Okay, we’re doing Alien.   R: Mostly because there was a point you made earlier about character and we used Harrison Ford’s various characters as the example, but I love the example of, specifically in terms of survival, and specifically in terms of the character of Ripley, Ripley doesn’t really change throughout the movie. What she does is survive because she has the skillset, which is the ability to think things through logically in the first place, to say, “Okay, we need to not be doing this.”   Basically the theme of Alien, correct me if I’m wrong, is We Should Have Listened to Ripley?   K: I mean, yeah. Probably. But beyond just the theme of—Granted, this goes into further expansions in the Alien franchise, but—   R: Well, let’s stick with Alien for one. The other movies in the franchise are different genres, basically. So sticking with the space truckers’ monster-horror survival.   K: Alien is a horror movie in space. That’s all it is. It was groundbreaking, genre-defining, but it is a horror movie in space. So, the themes of the movie, as Rekka said: survival. There’s also, I would say, a theme of frustration.    R: Mhm. The capitalist bureaucracy.   K: Well, and that’s what I was getting into.   R: Okay.   K: So then we’re introducing a conflict element there that is beyond simply: there’s a thing laying eggs in people’s chests.   R: That thing laying eggs in people’s chest wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the company.   K: Yes, exactly. So then, if you want to take all of that and say, “Okay, so how does that affect Ripley’s character arc?” Ripley is changed at the end of the story, not necessarily physically or personality-wise, but emotionally she is very affected. And she is going to then—have you ever heard about how Alien was supposed to end? One of the alternative endings they shot?   The alien gets Ripley, essentially, and then when whoever is calling in over the ship, the alien gets the intercom and answers back in her voice, requesting for orbits to come back to Earth.   R: Gotcha.   K: So, it was a very bleak ending, obviously.   R: But a lot of monster movies do this. They leave off with you not feeling safe.   K: Yes, and so that is another theme. What do you wanna leave your readers with? And, in this case, the movie pivoted a little bit and said, “Well, we wanna give the audience a sense of closure,” and that all of this, this theme of survival, she did survive. So rather than going with the theme of feeling unsafe, which was another theme running through that entire movie, paranoia, uncertainty—   R: Claustrophobia.   K: Claustrophobia. Anybody could become your enemy at any moment.   R: Body horror. Yup.    K: Yeah. So instead of leaving off with that theme, they decided to be a little kinder and pivot a little bit to say, “Hey, determination, intelligence, stick-to-itiveness, and survival will make you victorious.” Which is another set of themes. So then, back to, how does this tie into the character arc is: Ripley is a changed person at the end of this.   Boy, has she seen some shit. And now she knows that this corporation is up to no good. She is no longer just in it for the money. They say this is a long, awful journey, but it’s very good money. It’s totally worth it.   R: Mhm.   K: Maybe it’s not worth it anymore. There’s absolutely some anti-capitalist undertones in there.   R: Mhm.   K: Ripley comes out of this, even though personality-wise she hasn’t changed—the movie takes place over a relatively short period of time. But Ripley’s definitely got some different thoughts and motivations now, at the end of this. So, even though she hasn’t undergone a radical, inner transformation, she certainly thinks different things now than she did before.   R: Yeah, for sure.   K: So, yeah. That’s a great example of some really cool themes and how they affect—and it’s interesting because you could take it a step further and say how they affect the character arc, rather than the plot.   R: Right.    K: Because in this case, a lot of Ripley’s decisions are reactionary. Things are happening and she’s trying to adapt and recalibrate very, I’m only thinking of two instances in the whole—really, one and a half off the top of my head, in which she goes on the offensive, so to speak.   R: Right. Well that’s also sort of a plot thing is that your character is reacting to things up until a certain point, and then it’s at the time when they decide to say, “No, I will take care of this myself,” that’s when you’re entering that last act.   K: Yes! But, then, by the time we get to the, “I’ll take care of this myself,” for the plot and the character arc, we all go back to the themes of Ripley kind of coming to a new understanding of how stuff is actually happening around her, rather than letting it happen to her.   R: Yeah.   K: Yeah. Anyway, I think that’s a good example.   R: Cool. So, now that we’ve talked about what they are, given you some examples, figured out how to un-intertwine the character arc and theme. How do you tighten them up? And since the example given was a short story for publication, let’s assume we’re doing this in under 7,000 words. How do you tighten up character arc and theme and you’ve also, presumably, got a plot in there, in a very efficient way?   K: All of these kind of work together. I think that anything you’re going to do to a short story, you can apply to longer form fiction and vice versa. So me, personally, with—and Rekka has been on the receiving end of this a couple times—when working with authors, let’s start with themes. I mentioned before, one of the first things I ask the author is: What do you want the audience to know, think, or feel that they didn’t at the beginning of the book?   And when I say know, I don’t mean you’re—   R: Teaching them.   K: Yeah, you’re not putting a graph-chart in there and saying, “And then the price of gold went up to—” I’m not talking about facts, I’m talking about what you want them to know about these nebulous concepts in the way you want them to know it? So, identifying those things really will help you figure out where your themes are.    The other thing I always say, and this is where it starts to tie into the character arc, is look at the character arcs and the plot and the motivation. What are the characters doing and why are they doing it? What is driving them to do this? Because that’s where you’re gonna find a lot of your themes. And then, if theme is very important to you, if you really want to hammer a message home, making sure that your characters act and are motivated by that theme, consistently—and this isn’t to say it can’t evolve, it absolutely can. But making sure that they are correctly motivated, based on what the theme is, is a really good way to help tighten that up.   Then, that helps to feed into their character arc. Because you have a character, then, acting, reacting, and making decisions based on what is important to them and how the story is building.   [30:09]   R: And I think, at this point, if you’re feeling like, “I can’t make this character make this decision,” then that tells you that you are not succeeding at either theme or character arc.   K: Yes… and—   R: Or not in a way that supports what you set out to do with the plot.   K: Yes, and listen. I want to be clear about something that every story does not need to be a Magnum Opus of subtle themes and ideas woven through this— it’s going to be studied in college 101 classes for decades to come. But you do need a theme for your story. You need there to be something that is important in all of this. Otherwise it is a bland series of actions happening one after the other.   R: And if you don’t feel that it is a bland series, or your beta readers don’t feel that it is a bland series of actions, one after another, that means there’s a theme in there. So if you’re having trouble identifying it, that doesn’t mean immediately that you don’t have one.   I will use an example of Mike Underwood, when I was working on Annihilation Aria with him. So we had a few calls, I read the manuscript multiple times, and Mike had actually said the themes of the story are very important to him. So I went through the manuscript, and I do this with most books that I edit, and I kind of write out a plot outline based on what I’m reading, what I see happening in the book. Part of this is, one, that it’s just easier for me to keep track of things, but then also because if I show it to the author and say, “Okay, this is how I’m reading this,” and they’re going, “No, no! That’s not it at all,” then it’s like, okay, now we need to have a conversation.   But one of the things that I like to do through that is mark off, in my notes of this outline, where I’m identifying and seeing certain themes. And then we have a conversation about that. And if we’re seeing a real imbalance of them, or I’m only seeing them come through in certain parts of the story, or if I’m having a real hard time nailing them down and saying, “I feel like I’ve got ten themes in this story. Which one’s the most important to you?”    And I think that’s a really good exercise is, you know, most authors out there, I’m guessing if you’re pretty far into your Work-In-Progress at this point, you probably already have an outline. So go through it and try to pick out sections where you think certain themes are coming through. And I actually color-code them and then I can look through and see, “Oh, there’s a lot of red and not so much blue.”   R: Mhm. If you’re a pantser and you write without an outline, this is something you do, probably in your revision process. Write down a summary of each scene and that becomes an outline. Just because you’re doing it after the fact doesn’t make it less of an outline. And then do the same practice with that.   K: Exactly. It’s not easy to do. There’s a reason that anybody who’s taking any sort of an English literature class will say there’s a reason you spend a lot of time working on and learning about themes is because they’re intangible. They’re nebulous. There isn’t a point at which, in the story, the character breaks the fourth wall and says, “Hey, just so you know, we’re introducing a new theme here! It’s compassion!”   R: But at the same time, you study examples in order to identify the universalities and that’s what themes are.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you learn how to work your theme around compassion, you can write twenty novels that are completely different that are all about compassion, and you’d get really good at it. You know?   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: That’s why romance writers are really good at what they’re doing. By choosing their genre, they know what the theme is and they stick to it and, by the end, capital R, Romance writers are really, really efficient at getting stories written because they’ve already done this work. And every time you do this with a theme, it answers questions about the plot.   K: Yeah.   R: What needs to happen here? I’m lost. Well, okay, what’s your theme? What needs to happen here? Oh, well this!   Yeah, you answered your own question.   K: So, just to talk a little—with character arc, tightening that up and defining it a little better. Again, outlines here help. And it doesn’t need to be anything too detailed. It just needs to be this, then this, then this, then this and then throw some lines in there explaining what led to or motivated the character to get to that point. Character arcs, it’s funny because in some ways they are far more concrete than themes. You can actually sit down and outline a character arc, but I think it is harder sometimes to say, “Is this a character arc?”   The most important thing in the character arc is the character has to be different at the end than when they started. It can be something like RIpley in Alien where she hasn’t undergone a major personality shift, but she has changed the way she thinks and will act differently now because of that.    As opposed to someone like Luke Skywalker, who has the farmboy to legendary hero character arc, but Luke goes on this whole journey and at the end of it, he is a very, very, very different person than when he started because of all of the things that happened to him. All of the experiences, the adversity, the finding out his father’s Darth Vader. I mean, that alone—   R: Oh, I know. Plus he literally can’t go back to the life he had before.   K: Yeah, exactly. And that’s actually a very good marker of a successful character arc. Can they go back to how things were before? And if the answer is yes, your character has probably not had enough of a character arc for it to be considered a character arc.   R: Or it’s Indiana Jones.   K: Or it’s Indiana Jones. Because Indiana Jones always just goes back to how things were before. Indiana Jones has proof that God exists—   R: And goes back to university and just keeps teaching the Neolithic Era.   K: And just kept living his life! [laughs] Indiana Jones has multiple instances of literal proof that not only does the Judeo-Christian God exist, but also Hindu deities and various other things.   R: Mhm.   K: Aliens! All of this stuff and just continues on like it’s nothing. I don’t know what that says about him. If we should be impressed or horrified.   R: I think we’re supposed to be impressed. The idea being that the first time we see it happen is not the first time it happens for him.   K: I wanna be very clear about something: in the timeline of Indiana Jones because we all know—   R: Are we counting the River Phoenix and Young Indiana Jones?   K: Oh, no, but we’re counting the beginning of Last Crusade, to be sure.   R: Okay, alright.   K: Okay, so we’ve got Last Crusade, we’ve got that awesome train scene, whatever. Chronologically, then, Temple of Doom actually happens first.   R: Right, so we have the intro to Last Crusade, we have Temple of Doom—   K: And Temple of Doom, we establish that Hindu deities are clearly a real thing and a serious force to be reckoned with. Even if you wanna say, “Well, maybe it wasn’t the Hindu deities, it was magic,” okay fine, it was still bad, it was still, you know, unhappy.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, so then we go to Raiders of the Lost Ark, at the end of that we have established that the Judeo-Christian God is a real thing that exists and does not like Nazis and you should not open the box.   R: Yep.   K: Then, we go to The Last Crusade, and in case anybody was a little like, “Meh, I’m not sure, that could’ve been who-knows-what, just because they said it was the Ark of the Covenant doesn’t mean that’s what it really was,” well now we’ve got the Holy Grail. The literal, actual Holy Grail that has kept a Crusades-era knight alive and then, if we’re still gonna take this a step further, heals his dying father’s mortal wounds.   R: Yup.   K: So, we have now established that multiple deities actually, really exist and this guy just freaking goes back to teaching college like this hasn’t rocked his entire world.   R: Teachers have a limited amount of vacation time.   [K laughs]   R: What is he gonna do?   K: Doesn’t he get summers off? I just assumed that was when all of these were happening.   R: I don’t think he has tenure yet? Once he has tenure, maybe.   K: Yeah, yeah. Good point. Anyway, the whole point is: Indiana Jones, not a great character arc. Can he go back to the way things were? Yes. He does.   R: Apparently!   K: Over and over again.   R: He resets to default.   K: Yes. Getting back—I apologize, we got sidetracked there again—   R: It’s fine.   K: It’s fine, we get excited. So how do you actually go about tightening these up? When somebody gives you the incredible, helpful note of tighten up your themes and character arcs. So helpful. What do you do?   Well, so, for themes I think a good technique is sort of what I mentioned. Go back either through your outline or through your manuscript for revisions, and identify motivations and actions and what themes stem from those.   R: And color-code them maybe, like you  said.   [40:14]              K: Maybe color code them. Take a step back, so to speak. Take a thousand foot view and say, “Is the story driven by these or are they happening because the story’s the thing that’s driving here?” If it’s the second one, you do not have tight themes. The themes should be the ones driving the story and motivating the characters and influencing the plot.   R: And by driving the story, we don’t mean stop at the end of every two paragraphs and reiterate what your theme is.   K: Yes, so how do you tighten this up? Identify things that are happening. Be they actions of characters or elements of the plot. Maybe external forces of nature, depending on what your themes are, and go in and emphasize those a little bit. Make it so that—Yes, you can’t have a character turn to the audience, wink, and say, “I’m doing this for love!” But you certainly can have an inner dialogue where they are acknowledging and identifying that what is motivating them is their love for their dog.   R: Mhm.   K: Or, I guess, their significant other. Whatever.   R: Mostly the dog.   K: Yeah, probably the dog. This goes into the Show Me, Don’t Tell Me.   R: Mhm.   K: See the characters react based on things that are important to them, and that brings forward your themes. I don’t like the phrase “tighten up your themes” I like the phrase “strengthen your themes.”   R: Yeah.   K: And emphasize your themes. Showcase your themes. With themes, you’re not contracting them. You’re trying to disperse them a little bit more through the story. You are showing, not telling.   R: The thing is, like, a bouillon cube.   K: Yes.   R: It starts very small, but it goes throughout your entire project.   K: And then there’s no getting it out again. It’s in there.    R, laughing: Yeah.   K: Character arcs, on the other hand, are absolutely something that can be tightened and focused. So, how do you do this?    First, look at your themes. How are they affecting the story? How are they affecting the character’s decisions? Then look at what the characters are doing. Is it primarily reactionary? Are they just letting things happen to them? Or do they have agency? Are they making decisions themselves?    And it’s okay if, especially for the first part of the book, they’re just reacting. A lot of stories start out with a character just trying to get their feet under them, to recover and reorient themselves from something happening.   R: Although, I wanna say that that does not mean they shouldn’t have some sort of agency.   K: Yes, there needs to be decision-making in there.   R: Maybe they want something that they’re going to end up not wanting at the end.   K: Well, it can come down simply to something like they’re running away from the alien monster that grew from what was living in the back of their fridge and, do I run upstairs and lock myself in the bedroom or do I run out the front door?   Yes, they’re running, but they’re making a decision of how they’re best going to try to escape this.   R: And they can make the wrong decisions, too. I mean, that’s kind of part of the character arc.   K: That is part of the character arc. So tightening these up has to do with having the character come up against a conflict or an obstacle or a decision and then learning and growing and changing from it. So, again, identifying the parts at which your character is coming up against conflict in some way. And conflict, here, not meaning physical or argumentative. Sometimes the conflict can simply be, “It’s low tide, I need to catch fish and I can’t catch fish when it’s low tide.”   R: Right.    K: It can be like a force of nature. And then identifying how they’re reacting. Then, the next time it’s low tide, have they instead gone, “Ah, yes, I should catch extra fish because on this planet low tide lasts for three days and, therefore, I’m not going to be able to fish again for three days.” That’s growing and learning and making new mistakes.   R: Like staying on this planet where low tide lasts for three days. Can you imagine the smell?   K: There’s a very weird mood pattern on this planet.   R: It’s pitch black but low tide.   K: Yes, exactly. So somehow. It’s really weird because there is no moon, actually. No one really knows where the tides are coming from.   So identifying the areas of conflict for your character, where they’re coming up against adversity, and then seeing how they’re making decisions. If they’re just not reacting, if they’re just not doing anything over and over again, that’s not character development. That’s not a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Having them grow and change and learn, maybe thinking: Okay, I’m safe now. I’ve locked myself in my room from the alien creature from the back of the fridge can’t get me. Oh, hang on a second. It learned how to open doors. That’s... what do I do now? Okay, I’ve got a chair I can put up against the door.   And then finally getting to the point of going: you know what? I should have just run outside. I need to get out of this house.   R: Mhm.   K: So, again, identifying areas where your character is coming up into conflict, figuring out how they’re reacting, and making sure that they’re learning and changing and not reacting the same way.   This is not a real thing, I wish it was, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Obviously that’s not correct.   R: Right.   K: But it is important with character arcs and character development. Having your character do the same thing over and over again is not character arc.   R: Although there’s that stubbornness to that, or that unwillingness to grow, that can be the character arc and suddenly they realize doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not getting me where I want to go. And the thing they learn is not to do that anymore.   K: I am now being eaten by the thing that lived in the back of the fridge. I regret my life choices.   R: Yes.    [both laugh]   R: And that’s the morality lesson—the moral of the tale is clean out your fridge.   K: Clean out your fridge, people!    R: And not just in August.   K: Is that a thing that you do in August?   R: No, I’m saying… it’s just about coming up on August as we record this, don’t make it an annual event. Make it a…   K: You know what’s funny is that with all of the quarantining and stuff, I have been so much better about cleaning the fridge out because I’m just here all the time.   R: Mhm.   K: And I’m kinda like, “Huh.”   R: Well, when you go into an office you procrastinate by going to the lounge and making a cup of coffee and getting a drink or going to talk to somebody about something. But, when you’re home, how do you procrastinate? The only thing you can do is clean.   K: It’s kinda like I’m looking at this going, “Huh, that might start talking to me soon. I should probably do something about that.”   R: But if you’d been going into an office, you would’ve said, “That thing is talking, I should probably do something about that.”   K: I’m gonna go back to my office.   R: At least you’d be the only one there.   K: Yeah, yeah. Anyway! That was a very long-winded way of answering your questions and I hope that—   R: We answered it.   K: We hope that was helpful and not just a series of me rambling about uh—   R: At least we talked about interesting movies and people can relate to, at least Ripley. Especially right now.   K: I think we can all relate to Ripley on some level. One of my favorite behind-the-scenes thing with Alien is, have you ever seen the cute scenes from there? There was a part, it was so ridiculous, it would have ruined the movie, the actor that played the alien was like 6’8” or something and they just put him in this giant rubber suit. And I can’t remember what part of the movie it would’ve been in, but it was one of those where the character’s backing slowly with their gun into a room and they hear something behind them and they turn around and the alien’s there.   And there’s footage out there—look this up—of the alien crab-walking up to them. So just imagine this giant, 6’8” man in this heavy, absurd rubber suit crab-walking on all fours up to this actor. It—I understand what they were trying to do, and the sound effects were certainly creepy, but… it just ruined the whole, it was too ridiculous-looking. Thankfully, they saw that and cut it.   R: I think that has a lot to do with the human joints versus where the joints were supposed to be in this alien.   K: Yeah. Well that’s like in The Exorcist with Regan walking backwards down the stairs. Part of how creepy about that is how unnatural it looks. You’ve got joints going in directions that maybe humans can do that, but they probably shouldn’t.   R: Right, yeah. Exactly. So theme. Stay limber.   K, laughing: Yes! Anyway, Ashley, we hope we answered that for you and keep us posted. Let us know how things go with the story. And if you want to keep us posted on anything else—   R: You can find us online. We are on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast. We are at Patreon.com/wmbcast where we have some awesome patrons who are supporting the show. And if you feel like we have been helpful, you can throw us some bus fare and stuff for when we’re allowed to go see each other again and get back together for our podcast episode recordings.   K: I was gonna say, I don’t think we’re allowed on buses anytime soon, Rekka.   R: No, we’re definitely not. And if you don’t have cash to spare to support the show, you can also help us out a lot by leaving us a rating on review on Apple podcasts. We’re everywhere. Stitcher, Spotify, all that good stuff. But if you wanna leave a review, it’s most helpful to leave it there. You can also shoot us an email, info@wmbcast.com, and we can answer a question if you have one. If you wanna keep it anonymous, that’s the way to do it. Otherwise, post it to Twitter like Ashley did, and we’ll answer it in a future episode.   K: Yeah. We’ll try our best. That’s for sure.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, well, thanks everyone so much and we’ll see you in a couple weeks.   R: Take care, everyone!   [outro music plays]

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week, we are joined by Antoine Bandele, author, publisher, and a lot-of-other-stuff-er. He's a busy guy who knew what he wanted out of the fantasy maps for his series world of Esowon, and found help on Fiverr to see it realized. You'll want to start out, if possible, with his page of maps open in a browser: https://www.antoinebandele.com/esowon-maps We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 43: The Maps of Esowon, Cartography with Antoine Bandele transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. My name’s Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisition editor for Parvus Press.   R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore and today we have a very, very awesome guest. This is Antoine Bandele. He happened to write a book that I happened to read recently and when Kaelyn suggested that we do a whole series on artwork, I said,” Ooh! We should talk about cartography, and I have the book and the author for this episode.”   K: Yeah, we said Artwork August, it became more “Artwork Series.” But cartography is a really important and, I think frequently underappreciated, certainly, part of a book. You know, as Antoine mentions in the episode, fantasy books especially, it’s almost expected that you have some kind of a map or something in there.    R: It might be overlooked as far as the work that goes into it, but if it’s not there, it will not be overlooked.   K: Yeah.   R: Your fans will be talking to you about, “Excuse me?! You invented a world?!”   K: Visual representation of this world.   R: Yeah. So this was a series of maps at the beginning of the book that I read, which was By Sea and Sky, an Esowon story, and there were a series of maps at the beginning, including a diagram of one of the vessels in, as the title kind of gives it away by sea and sky, so there’s an airship and there’s a great, even just a layout of the airship. Almost plan-like, ship...plans.   K: A schematic.   R: Schematic! That works. I took interior design for a year, I don’t know what to call the drawings. Hey! Drawings! That’s what we called them.   K: Pictures. Pictures of boats.   R: Yes. So, almost like a draftperson’s drawing of an airship concept. So those are all in the beginning of the book and, when I opened them, I was just like—I don’t know if they loaded. Because you know an eBook will load to a certain page when you open it and, like, you have to go back to see the preceding pages.   I always go back to the cover because I always wanna see how the cover looks on an eReader because this is just a minor point of mine. And I happened to see the artwork, the cartography. Whether it was loaded after the automatic page one , or before. I was like, “Oh! These are nice! These are really nice,” because Kaelyn and I have talked about maps before for books. Colin and I have talked about maps before for books. I did my map for my books and that was a whole heck of a project and I wish I had somebody else to do the work for me because it’s not easy.   K: I think we think, like, “Oh, whatever. You just sit down and you draw some borders, some boundaries, some oceans. Throw some mountains in there, I guess, and you’re done. It’s not that. It’s not easy at all. It’s certainly not that easy. There’s a lot of considerations that go into building a world and then putting it on a piece of paper. You can be an excellent artist, are you that good a cartographer, though?   R: Cartographer’s a big word and it’s a big responsibility.   K: So, anyway, we had an absolutely fantastic time talking to Antoine. Hopefully we’ll have him back at another date because oh my god does that guy do a lot of stuff.   R: Yep, yep.   K: So, anyway, take a listen and we hope you enjoy.   [intro music plays]   R: I just wanted to double check the pronunciation. A: Bandele. Kind of like ándale, with a B.   R: Okay.   A: It’s actually a mistranslation. [laughs] It really should be Bamidele, but I guess somewhere, the naming coming over to America, it got—   R: A syllable fell off?   A: Yeah. So now it’s Bandele.    K: So, Antoine, do you wanna take a moment and introduce yourself to our listeners?   A: Yeah, so my name’s Antoine. I do many-a-things but the thing that’s most relevant to today is that I am a publisher and writer and I do fantasy works, particularly fantasy works that are inspired by pre-colonial African myth and folklore, anything of that nature.   K: And we brought you on today, specifically to talk about a certain special kind of artwork that pops up in especially fantasy books sometimes.   A: Yeah,especially fantasy.   K: Yeah! Maps and cartography. Rekka and I wanted to do a series on artwork in books. We’ve been threatening to do an episode about cover art for a long time. And as we were working through this, we were kind of like, “You know, there’s so much art that goes into a book that you don’t think about or that we take for granted and I think one of those, definitely, are the maps that you find in the books. Because they add so much to the stories and they give the reader a great sense of the world that they’re about to explore and just helps set the stage.   I think that they’re—well, everything’s relative in terms of difficulty, but designing a map is very different than designing cover art.    R: Yeah.   A: I would suspect. I don’t even know. I just hire people to do it, so I dunno.   R: Well that’s one of the smart things, right? Is making sure that you stick to the areas that your expertise is heavier in, and don’t try to be Master of Everything. So when we were talking about this Artwork August, I had just finished reading your book By Sea and Sky. So, I just served up these maps into my face and enjoyed them and then we started talking about doing artwork.   I instantly said, “Oh! You know what great maps I’ve seen? And they’re not like in an old, 60-year-old Lord of the Rings edition. Let’s talk about some current stuff.”   A: Mhm.   R: These are really great maps and I didn’t even know at the time, and it blew me away, but you found these on Fiverr?   A: Yes, so a woman named Maria Gondolfo, who actually is from Italy, which is awesome about working remote or online, is that you can work with people all across the world. Like, my first book, I think my editor was from Texas and then one of my beta readers was from the East Coast. I think York was one of them. And my cover artist is from Bangkok and then I have my cartographer, she’s from Italy. So it’s a lot of people all over the world who get to work with me.   She is renflowergrapx on Fiverr. And I got really lucky because I think she was maybe the first person I found on Fiverr.   K: Oh, wow. Okay.   A: Just by searching up “fantasy maps.” I think my brother had directed me there because he usually goes there for Dungeons and Dragons maps, and that’s what she usually does. She does Dungeons and Dragons campaign maps for people.   K: Very cool. Yeah.   A: And I was like, “Oh! Do you also do it for books? Or have you done it?” She’s like, “Yeah, I’ve done a few books before. Just give me what—” Oh! I should show you guys this! I actually have drawings. So, I usually would do a sketch-up of the map itself and then she goes and does her amazing work. I should find that.   K: Getting a map together—as you’re grabbing these sketching that you did—it’s no small thing. It’s a commitment. It’s a very difficult—I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is, even as the writer, to sit down and plan out the map in your head. What made you decide, “Yes, this is the book that I wanna take this on.”       A: So the reason I need maps is that, yes, it’s a fantasy fable. It’s actually expected from the fantasy reader to have a map and it helps, as you were saying before, contextualize the world. Especially when people start talking about locations in the world. It’s like, “What? What are you referring to? I don’t know this world.” But you can refer to the map and be like, “Oh! He’s talking about that little corner in the north!”    So the way I do my maps, is I really just take from real world landscapes and basically just do copy-pasting. So I’ll take a sheet of clean paper and then I’ll have a section, like, I think some of the islands are based on some SOutheast Asian islands. Not the big ones you would recognize, but the little ones that are off to the size. And then I just blow them up to be bigger. I’m like, alright cool, and then I do that. And the benefit of that is that you’re getting a natural land formation versus it just being completely out of your mind, in which case sometimes that can come out with mistakes and that sort of a thing. So I just do that, mostly as a way to help the reader figure out what this world is and what it’s about.   K: And so you’re starting—rather than starting from scratch, you’re drawing inspiration from existing geography—   A: Correct.   K: But this is a fantasy world, things are gonna exist there that don’t quite exist in South Asian islands.    A: Right, exactly. Well, ‘cause I don’t have a full world map right now because I’m building out the world section by section and then connecting it later.   K: I was gonna ask, did you sit down and figure this out all at once or are you kind of adding a new land as you need to?   A: Yeah, I add new land until the world map is filled out. So, for looking at the Esowon Esterlands map. If you turn it clockwise, you might notice that landscape, possibly. It’s a little scrunched up, but if you look at it, it is basically Panama.   R: Okay. Yeah.   K: Yep, yep.   A: The space between South America and Central America.   K: Alright, yes, I can see it.   A: But flipped the other way so it looks a little more reminiscent of Northeast Africa and Arabia.   R: Yeah.   A: And then, also, the middle islands are based on the Carribean, so it’s inserting the West Indies in the Red Sea, basically. But, again, making a fantasy of it because that stuff doesn’t necessarily exist. Even that, you know, the indication of Octa, that’s supposed to be Egypt and the Delta Nile, that’s supposed to look like the Nile, but it’s obviously not.    Victoria Falls is kind of in that bottom section. So it’s very much inspired, and this one in particular I did that because I, specifically was going the Song of Ice and Fire route—And that’s actually what George R. R. Martin did. Westeros is basically just the UK turned upside down.   K: Yep, and stacked on top of each other a little bit.   A: Exactly, and there are some differences to meet the standards of Westeros, but that’s essentially the basis for what I did for this, you know, making it somewhat familiar but then still being its own thing in a fantasy realm.   K: Yeah, and for reference, if you’re wondering what we’re talking about, we’re on Antoine’s website where he has all of the maps from the books displayed on there. And a link to find the cartographer who did them. They’re very impressive.   R: And that link to this page will be in the show notes. We should’ve said that at the top so that people could bring him up while they listen, if they’re not driving. Because who commutes anymore?   [A and K laugh]   A: Right.   R: Yeah. So you went to Fiverr. Was that your first stop looking for a cartographer?   A: Yeah, that was definitely my first. I think I was first flirting with the idea of doing it myself and then I was like, “Nah, I’m not gonna do it myself.” Because I realized very quickly, as you were saying, it’s actually more complex than you would actually expect.   R: Oh yeah.   A: And there’s actually a lot of rules to cartography that people don’t think of. Like, the way the rivers flow, they have to come off mountains. Stuff like that. The way port cities usually are. There’s a lot of little nuances that people don’t really recognize. I definitely just went to Fiverr and I just got really lucky. I honestly, my first search—I might’ve looked at a few people, but then Renflower was a standout for me, for sure. She had an option for standard black and white and she had a full color and and I saw her examples and I was like, “I don’t think I have to look anymore! Lemme just, like, reach out to her and see if she’ll do it.”   K: This is it!   [11:44]    R: Nailed it. A: And then what’s really awesome, and she surprised me on this because By Sea and Sky, it features airships. And I was looking and I was like, “Aww, I’m probably gonna have to find a new person, because she only does maps,” right? But that’s my thinking. I was like, “Well, hey, I need like an airship. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that before…” and she’s like, “Yeah! I love doing them!” She says it gets kind of old to just do her maps, you know, week in and week out. And she was really excited. She, actually I think uses it as an example or whatever now.    K: Oh, awesome.   A: I needed that in particular because I was writing the third act of By Sea and Sky which takes place, there’s like a battle sequence at the end. I was like, “Oh, man. I need to know, solidly, what the landscape of the—” Basically I had to know which level everybody’s on, how are they getting trapped—   R: What room’s above them and under them, yeah.   A: Yeah! Exactly! So I got her to do that and, again, I got references, something like that. I was like, “Is this kinda like the—” I describe it as looking like a ship, but it flies and has like the sails on the sides so it can fly and that kinda stuff. And the different rooms and where the captain’s quarters is and the mess hall and all that kinda stuff. So that was a lot of fun for her and for me.   R: So this sort of comes from her experience doing D&D maps, I assume—   A: Right, exactly.   R: This was kind of laid out where, you actually could, if you printed it out big enough you could do a campaign through the ship, reenacting the battle from the third act.   A: You definitely could.   R: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s great. There’s a kind of isometric view of the ship, where you get the wow factor of what the ship looks like with the lateral sails and the more traditional sails, and then you get the deck structure. And then you get the breakdown, floor by floor, almost like architectural drawings.   A: Right. And that’s because she wanted to feel like it was in the world, so some of the names you see on the bottom right are actually characters in the world, the engineers who built out—    K: Ohh!   R: Oh, yes!   A: Very, very small in the bottom right corner—   K: Very cool!   R: I didn’t even try reading it because it was so small.   A: Janaan Malouf, Ismad al-Kindi, who some of them actually show up in the book, like Ismad al-Kindi is the engineer that we know in the story itself. Janaan is someone we meet in book two. But these are actual, in the year of The Viper, the year of 3582. So she made it feel like it was in-universe, except for the typeface with the navigation and whatever that looks very much like it’s us typing that in, versus it being written.   But, otherwise, it’s supposed to be like an in-universe kind of blueprint.    R: And there’s something to be said for legibility, too, if you want someone to read that.   A: Exactly. You gotta be able to read it, though.   R: I mean, we all assume it’s translated into English and maybe it’s also translated into a serif font—   A: Exactly!!   R: So. Yeah.   A: Right.   K: So, you got on Fiverr, you found Maria. What is this first conversation like, while you’re trying to explain and describe this.   A: Oh my god. Well, she—so most Fiverr professionals do this, where they’ll ask you to provide an explanation, for what you want, so there’ll be boxes of, “Do you have fantasy examples that you want your maps to look like?” Because she does several different kinds of styles. “Please tell me a little bit about your story, what is it about? What’s the landscape like? What’s some of the history behind the landscape.” So you explain all this, you fill out the boxes and then you have a conversation.    Well, first, she has to accept it. So when you send it off, you’d be like, “Okay, well, is it cool? Would you wanna work with me?” She says yes or no. Yes. Then you continue forward and then she takes, however long, I’m not sure how long her thing is on her website right now, but I think when I did it, it was like five to ten days, or something like that? I’m not sure. She’s like really popular now. I think she even has a Level 2 badge or something like that.   K: OH, great!   A: Or something to that. I can’t remember, but… So we do that and we talk together, and she’ll send me a rough and I’ll maybe have adjustments. We’ll go back and forth until we both are happy with our final product, and it just goes on like that.   K: Yeah, and actually, as a call back to the previous episode we did with Colin Coyle, who does most of the art direction for Parvus Press, you guys have to have a contract or an agreement in place. When you say you’re talking to Maria, you have to check all of these boxes, there’s gotta be something set up.  You don’t just, you know, hand someone something and say, “Hey, I want it to vaguely look like this,” and then you send them some money and you get back you—   A, laughing: Yeah, no.   R: And Fiverr’s got that kinda built in, don’t they?   K: Yeah.   A: Yes, they do. Fiverr, Upwork, any of those other freelancer websites, that’s kinda the benefit of it because you don’t have to do all the legal stuff because it’s already all done in the background for you. That’s the reason why it costs an extra fee to use those platforms because they’re basically managing all of that paperwork, kind of a thing.   R: Mhm.   K: But worth it, if that’s something you don’t want to worry about.   A: Right.   K: Because we—there’s a lot of really talented, awesome artists on Fiverr, obviously, but they’re—you don’t always know you’re running into and what their work ethic’s gonna be like. Sometimes more so than the work that they’re producing. So if you’re looking to have something like this done, and you’re considering, “Do I go out in the world and find someone, or do I go to somewhere like Fiverr?” There is that, at least to consider as the built-in protection that comes with Fiverr. They have all these policies in place already, so you don’t have to think or worry about that.   R: And there’s some motivation for the artists to maintain their reputation on the side, too.   K: Absolutely.   A: Right, exactly.   R: So these are color maps. What made you choose color? I mean, they’re very colorful, too. So, obviously, digital Kindles and eReaders and on your website, they look fantastic. But, traditionally in books, you’d have like a black and white interior print—   A: Just black and white, yeah.   R: Yeah, exactly. On the ink-readers you won’t see color. So was it a price difference and you just decided you wanted to see that color? Or, what was the decision as you’re art directing her? Even though she’s applying her know-how and all her experience creating these things, but at a certain point certain aesthetics are up to you. So, what were the decisions you made as you went through this?   A: So, that was just her having that option available. Because I was just expecting to go into it black and white, like it was. I mean, that’s just how it is. But then she had like a premium version that wasn’t that much more expensive and I saw her examples and I was like, “Oh, yeah! If color’s an option then let’s do color! Why not?”   R: Mhm.   A: But, of course, you can only see it if you’re looking at it on the Kindle app or if you’re looking at it on an eReader that has full color available to it. If you’re looking on a Paperwhite or anything like that, or on a printed page, you’re not gonna have that. But that’s all a thing, too, that she factors in is that she makes sure that the greyscale, once you put it in greyscale, does it still function? So when we do our passes between each other, she actually factors that in. Every time she sends me a color, it also shows up in black and white as well, to make sure that it functions in both formats.   R: Oh, excellent.   K: Very nice, yeah. More like lineart, kind of.   A: Yeah, ‘cause a lot of times amateur cartographers or amateur artists don’t consider that you can’t just flip a switch, necessarily—   R: Yup.   A: It’s a separate skillset to have black and white versus color.   R: That’s like all the Mad Max and Logan and other movies. They’re starting to release editions that are in black and white. And it’s not just that they desaturate the film, they actually go through and adjust it, just like they were producing a whole new movie, to really play with the tone and the volume and the color and stuff like that. It does take a lot of work to remove all that color and still have something that’s lovely to look at.     [19:26]   K: This is a far more complicated project that requires a different skillset than just: Well, I’m going to draw some mountains on a nebulous looking piece of land. Right? And, you mentioned before, there are rules. You can’t just have a river that just starts in the middle of a continent and also ends in the middle of a continent.   A: Right.   K: It’s gotta be, you know, flowing from somewhere. Presumably, even in your fantasy world, some laws of physics and geography do still apply.   A: Yep.   K: But Maria obviously has a lot of experience dealing with this and designing things. Was there anything that, you know, you said, “Okay, I want it to look like this,” and she went, “Oh no, that’s not how this works. It’s gotta look like this instead,”?   A, chuckles: Um, I don’t know if we ever had those conversations because I think we both came in, both knowing what had to go into it. I’m sure she—because she actually liked me as a client, I guess, because I communicate well or whatever. Because I guess who she usually deals with are people who don’t know that kind of thing? And for me to come in and already have all that set up—Like I said, I do my sketches before she does anything. I’m sure that’s a benefit to her. It’s just easier.   R: Yeah, I can tell you, as a graphic designer, most of the clients you get are, “Oh, I’ll know it’s right when I see it!” And then seventy iterations later, they still don’t like anything.   A, sympathetically: Yeah…   R: And you just want to walk away from the situation. But, yeah, if you know what you want to begin with and you have sketches, I mean that must be so much easier for her. And then she can apply what she knows, to take those sketches. So, your sketches were land shapes and continents, islands, and that sort of thing? Coastlines that you already had an idea of? Or was it mostly an orientation of: these cities are kind of grouped over here and they’re on a continent and this one’s on an island, and this one’s on a straight.   What level of understanding the actual geography of your world did you bring to begin with? Or was it mostly like, “I need a map. I only know that these two things are separated by water and are seventy miles apart.”   A: I was very specific on the land masses and how they looked. The main thing I didn’t really know was the in-between stuff like the mountain placement and forest placement and stuff like that. I knew I would say, like, I would have a drawing of this is greenish, this should be forest-y, this should be desert-y, but then she would go in with the details. So I was very, very—my notes were very specific about shapes and also what was forest, what was desert, and even the spacing.    Like, the spacing, in particular, was important for By Sea and Sky because the main island, Kidogom and Al Anim were a specific, plot-wise, not so much in book one, but in book three, there was a specific plot on the distance between the two, because there’s some travelling that goes on. So I was very, very specific about it. I think, at some point, she had it really close and I was like, “Oh no! They’re not that close together.” And that’s the reason, actually, we made the second version of it, the one that’s called Al Anim and Kidogo map, which shows a little bit better the distance between the two, versus the wider shot. So you can understand when that particular plot happens how much time and distance happens between those two.   R: I’m observing that you know things about book three that have to have bearing—   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say! How do you deal with this with potential spoilers, because what you’re putting on a map are things that are significant to the story. Did you have any concerns with that, where you’re like, “I’ve gotta put this on here because it exists in the world, but I am then—”   A: Ohh, I see what you’re saying!   K: Yeah.   A: So, yes. Specifically, there are—The map that I have on the website now, those locations are only locations that are spoken in that particular book.    K: Gotcha.   A: So, in oncoming books, like in the second book I mention a newer location, the map gets updated with that little point of interest. So the particular thing with the whole distance between Kidogo and Al Anim, not really a spoiler so much. It just gives context for when that plot point comes up because it’s really just about how long it takes to get back to Kidogo because there’s a plotline of, “Hey, we gotta get back there! And how long is it gonna take for them to catch up to us?” kinda thing, that’s why that was very specific, those two locations in particular.   R: Yeah, and those two are mentioned throughout the book. It’s not like a—   A: Correct, correct. There are places on the map that should be mentioned, but aren’t specifically for that reason that you guys mentioned about it being spoilery. So each map is different.   K: So you just go the method where, “I’m leaving this stuff off and when I need you to know about it, I’ll let you know about it.”   A: Yes. And that’s exactly the same way I write, too. I don’t present every piece of worldbuilding. I was just talking to another author because I work with a lot of authors within the same space of this world that I’m building out, and they’re like, “Whoa! You know so much about this, this, and that!” And I’m like, “Yeah, there’s just no point of putting it in that story because it wasn’t relevant to the story.” But there’s all these pieces of worldbuilding.   I think George R. R. Martin said your worldbuilding should just be like a tip of an iceberg and then, you know, the reader should see the impressions of the iceberg underneath, but that’s not part of the story. So you don’t need to see the entire iceberg, you just need to see the little tip of it.   R: I think Kaelyn would appreciate that, as an editor.   K: It’s funny because Rekka and I talk about this all the time, that I’m a planner.    A: Me too.   K: I want to—and this comes from being an editor is that, especially if I’m working with somebody who’s working on a series, I need to know where this ends up. I need to know how it ends, but also geographically where it ends because I need to make sure that there isn’t something coming completely out of left field here. And what I was gonna ask is if you, along the George R. R. Martin lines, like to pepper little people and name places into your book for you to go back and reference and make relevant later—   A: Yep.   K: —I’ve used that trick with authors where it’s like, “Okay, listen, if you’re not sure how you’re getting yourself out of this hole yet, that’s fine. But you gotta lay some groundwork along the way. So if you wanna make it a throwaway line that could or could not mean anything, that’s fine. But you have to do something.” So that it’s not like: oh! It turns out there’s this entire lost continent that nobody knew about and it’s super-secret and special. That’s how you annoy people.   A: Mhm, yeah.   R: You wanna create a Chekov’s Island and you can put it in the map, but not in the book.   K: Yes, yes exactly.   R: So, it was that planning ahead which was more my question for you. You have a series that is in the works.   A: Right.   R: You already have how many of them written?   A: Yeah, there’s a few. Demons...1984… I think at least six right now, across the entire series.   K: Well, yeah, because you have some prequels and things like that.   A: Yeah! There’s prequels, there’s novellas, there’s a graphic novel as well. There’s a lot of—audiobooks as well. But yeah.   R: And they all share this map.   A: And they all share… portions of the map. Like, I said before. So the portion that we’re looking at now is the northeast version of it, the other one that I have which is for my first book, The Kishi, which is called the Southern Reaches of the Golah Empire, that’s like the southwest portion of it, and then this one here, Southern Eshiya, that’s like far east. So these are, like, pieces of it and I haven’t puzzled them all together yet because I am building out the world bit by bit.Oh! Perfect! You guys already know about Game of Thrones. So basically what I’m doing right now is I’m writing about Robert’s Rebellion before A Game of Thrones happens. So basically, I”m writing all that stuff leading up to the saga, the big epic books.      R: So, planning ahead this much, is it just because you’re going section by section that you have the confidence to say, “Okay, yes, this is where all the cities are, I don’t need to move them because I’m not gonna run myself into any trouble later.” You could get to book eight and say, “Oh shoot! It would really help if Kidogo was actually a little bit further north because then I could squeeze in another island that isn’t here right now!” Like, do you worry about that or are you just like, “Okay, I can commit to this and I can figure it out later.” Or are you really, really planned out to the point of, you have outlines for enough to pretty much flesh out the entire world. And you know what you need.   A: A bit of both. I actually know how the big saga books end. I know how those began. I know where the locations of all these stories will be. So I know what to keep not spoken about.   R: Mhm.   A: That’s why I have only a few points of interest. Like, I don’t go and like, “I’m gonna go and name every single piece of land here!” That would just put me into a corner if I do that. So that’s why my rule is, whatever I’m talking about in the story is what will be mentioned on the map, and nothing more. Because yeah, if I wanna add something in there, what? Never was mentioned before! It’s not canon, so it’s okay. I can insert that in there. But if you do, do that, if you do over explain it too much then, yeah. You can run yourself into a corner of being like, “Whoops! I kind of established that that place is like this and I can’t, you know, add that in there so.”   R: And I put the picture on my site, people are gonna point at it and say I was wrong!   A: Yeah, exactly.   K: And, conversely, though, this is getting more into the actual creating the maps. As you said, you only, if you’re not talking about it, do you keep a list as you’re going through the book of kind of like, “Okay, I need to like—”   A: Oh, yes! I have a story bible. I have a huge story bible.   K: Okay, so like, “We went here, we went here, we went here. These are the places we need to talk about. Or this is mentioned.”   A: Mhm, yeah. There’s timelines, locations, like terms and language phrases. Yeah, that’s very important, too, for creators out there. Writers, make sure you’re having a story bible. For, especially, epic fantasy.   K: Oh, yeah.   A: You really should have it for anything. Like, even The Office, which is just a sitcom, has  a story bible.    K: Yep.   A: Fantasy, it’s a must. It’s not even like an optional thing. You must have a story bible.    K: Yeah, otherwise you’re gonna run into some bizarre continuity errors. But, there are certainly some famous ones out there. But I have actually read a book, I can’t remember which one it was, where they had a map in there and there were two places just missing off of it. And they weren’t particularly relevant to the story or anything, but they were mentioned and there were characters from there and I’m a hundred percent sure they were meant to be on the map. And they just left them off it. But, yeah, you know if you’ve got a lot of cities and places and stuff, I’m sure it can happen.   [29:52]   A: And the benefit of me being indie published is that I can rectify that very easily. ‘Cause I’m like, “Oh, that’s not on there? Alright, photoshop, put it in there, reupload,” and then that e-file gets updated so that person is like, “Alright cool. Sweet. Never happened. What.”   K: What are you—what are you talking about? That was always like that. You’re imagining things. Stop hallucinating cities that weren’t there.   A: Right.   R: So, I’m noticing that as we run through these maps and you’re talking about them in different ways, and you’re mentioning that they’re different regions of the planet, I am noticing that they—or the worlds, planet is for sci-fi—that these maps are kind of in different styles. Is that intentional, that they would be a regional style for each story?   A: Yes! Yeah, so they’re slightly different depending on which region we’re in. And it’s supposed to kind of be like a—what Maria always wanted to do was make sure that, as much as she could, make it like it was an in-world map and not so much a map made by 21st Century people—   R: A digital file, yeah.   A: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, yeah that’s the reason for the differences. That’s why we have the airship layout looking like it’s like a blueprint and then you have Kidogo and stuff looking, as it does.   R: And creases! Creases in your maps and discolored areas and…   A: Yes, yes! Oh, and she—which is funny because when I first started, I use a program called Vellum which is a formatter, and it didn’t—at first, it didn’t support full-page leaved images, so when I had showed her the book the first time, she’s like, “Oh… I designed it to be full page…”    I was like, “I know, but it doesn’t support it! I had to make it a little tiny thing on one page. And then I showed her, “THEY DO IT NOW! THEY DO FULL PAGE IMAGES!!!!!” So the crease that she does there actually creases with the spine of the book, like it actually exists. Like “OOOH!”   And she’s so happy that it has that now, and I was like, “Yeah, I know you wanted that,” because they only put that in seven months ago or something like that.   R: Yeah, it was not that long ago. When I went in and I found it, I was equally happy.   A: I use it all the time. My title pages look so awesome now!   K: That is, that’s very cool.   R: And I noticed it also, like you said, lay a single image across two pages, if you have your print layout done through them, too. So yeah. Very good update. Vellum is constantly improving. I’m a huge fan.   A: Yeah, they’re awesome.   K: You work on these books with an editor. Do you include the editor in the designing process of these maps at all? Do you get any input or run anything by the editor, or do you just handle all of this yourself?   A: More or less. I mean, it depends on how important that location is to the story. I definitely have an editor—I have one of my editors, she’s more developmental, she’s more about the characters, and then I have one who’s more into the worldbuilding aspect of it? Fiona’s the one I’m mentioning who is like, more the character-based one and then Callan, Callan Brown, is the more worldbuildy.    So, with Callan, I moreso do that kind of stuff with, where I’m like, hey this location—or, when we get to Al-Anim, because Al-Anim’s the main thing of book two, we were talking about the design of that city, the idea of the spine that goes through the entire city where everybody congregates and stuff like that. Or the idea, like I came up with a tavern, I’m like, “Okay, this tavern, what’s the history of this tavern? Why is it central? Why is it so important for everybody? Like, why is it popular? Why does it do so well?” We have those kinds of conversations, for sure, with an editor.          K: Gotcha. ‘Cause we spend a lot of time talking about how, especially in self- and indie publishing, there’s this drive to just want to do everything yourself. I can take this, I can handle this, I don’t want people coming in and messing up my thing, but an outside voice, an outside set of eyes, is certainly, I think, helpful, even when it is something as microcosmic as building a map.   A: I think it’s a complete necessity, actually. I don’t think it should ever be a one-mind person. Like, it’s very similar to filmmaking, where it’s a really collaborative effort when you really look at what goes into a book. Like, there’s not too many people out there who are gonna be doing everything on their book. From audiobook production or your cover design or your cartographers or your editors. Like, it’s definitely a collaborative thing.    And I’m very huge about that. Like, I use the heck out of beta readers. I really, really—several iterations I’ll have a draft go, have the beta readers say something, send the other one out, have the beta readers say something. Alright, now my editor’s going through it, now my critique partner’s going through it. I’m very, very into the feedback and that feedback loop of making sure that everything makes sense and things track. I think that’s super important.    K: Yeah, I completely agree. So, along those lines, we always ask when we have guests on, advice,s suggestions, red flags, things you would pass along to somebody who’s thinking, “Hey, you know, I’m gonna include a map in my book.” What would you tell them? To either watch out for or to make sure you do.   A: I would send them to Brandon Sanderson’s, he has a bunch of YouTube videos. It’s his classes, literally his classes for free. One of those episodes that he has on YouTube is about him talking about maps. Literally, the whole session of that class was about maps. And he really, really goes into—Also him, and there’s also other people on YouTube who talk about it. D&D people, I would say look up D&D channels.   K: Okay.   A: They also have really good insights about map design. Because yeah, it’s not as simple as putting a mountain, and like you were saying, having a river in the middle of a continent, sort of situation. Even port cities. Port cities are done incorrectly because they aren’t typically right on the coast, they’re usually a little bit more inland, whether it’s a bay or on a river, deeper in. Whatever it might be. So, I would say, I usually suggest Brandon Sanderson’s works, his lectures that are free on YouTube.    You don’t have to take a college course about geography or geology or anything like that, but it does help to have some knowledge about what tectonic plates are, how they work, how they form continents, why continents look the way they do. Why those mountain ranges look different from a different kind of mountain range. A little bit, just a little bit, if you’re gonna be making maps, to know that.    K: Yeah, I would even take it a step further and say, you know, think about the terrain that you’re putting in here and how it fits into your story. Will this kill the characters, based on the length of time it’s supposed to take them to cross it?   A: Right.   K: I’ve seen a lot of traditionally published books where you look at the maps and you’re like, “That’s not how long it should have taken them to get from that place to the other, compared to these two cities which are much closer together and somehow took a longer amount of time.” But I’m sure that’s a factor you have to consider as well. If I say these two cities are this far apart and it took these two characters six days to get between them, and these two are twice as far apart, in theory it should take at least twelve.   R: And one’s in an airship and another one’s sailing on the water.   A: That is literally the reason why I was talking about the whole book three thing between the Kidogo and Al-Anim thing because it was very important ‘cause both of those things factor in. It was like, “Okay, how long will the sea ship take to get there? How long will the airship take to get there?” So I had to factor it and I’m like measuring it out. I’m like, “Okay, so, if I’m taking this or something like that, I’m gonna measure out each piece of it. Okay, this little prong is probably gonna be a quarter of a day, so if I do four of these, this distance takes a day— Yeah, I totally had to do all of that and adjust things based on plot reasons.   K: Plot reasons. Yes. No, we could do an entire episode on geography versus plot. And how they work for and against each other.   A: Uh-huh.   K: The airship, you know, what if it’s crossing mountains that frequently have storms over it. What if the sea ship is going through a channel that’s known to be very rocky, so you really have to slow down and navigate through there.   A: And sometimes you add that, specifically, because you’re like, “I need them to slow down! Lemme put a typhoon here!”   R, laughing: Excellent.   K: These people are gonna get there two days before they left the last…   A: Yup, yup, yup.   R: I did see that there’s a sea serpent on the map. Occasionally it might just pop up and grab the airship or something, right?   K: Here there be monsters.   R: You do so much else.   K: Like, a lot.   R: A lot, a lot. What do you want our listeners to know about you before we let you go and, definitely include where they can find you. Talk about your publishing your house, talk about your various business—   A: Ventures and endeavours. Yeah.   R: You just keep switching hats! And go, “Today, I am an audio producer. Tomorrow, I’m editing video.” I’ll let you do it.   A: You can find everything about me, if you just wanna see every single thing that I’m doing, on my website. That is antoinebandele.com [spells it], so I do a bunch of stuff. So I do, primarily right now, the main income generator for me is my YouTube channel. I am a YouTuber. Right now, I’m focused mostly on Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra because those have come back to Netflix and my channel is like, “Hey! Lots of people are watching those videos! You should make more of those videos!” And I’m like, “Oh my god, yes I will!” And so I… that’s the main focus right now.   K: Fine, I’ll talk about Avatar: The Last Airbender more.   A: Oh, fine. Jeez, Louise! So I’ve been doing that, as of late. But I do other things, too. I’ve covered Harry Potter, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, as we’ve been talking about. Samurai Champloo, some anime, stuff like that.   R: Nice.   A: So I have my YouTube, and that’s my main thing. I also work freelance for other YouTube channels. I used to work for a company called JustKidding films, where they do a news channel, they have a party channel for board games. I also work for a blog channel, their name is Tip and Kace. Basically it’s just a family blog, just their day-to-day and stuff like that. So I have those services, and I also do services for indie authors who are trying to produce audiobooks.   So I have a bunch of—I live in L.A., I think as I mentioned already in the podcast, so I have a lot of friends who are actors, or up and coming actors, who would love to have work. I was doing audio just for myself, right? Just for my own books, because I’m already an editor I’m like, “I’ll just do it myself.” And then one of my friends, after we had collaborated on the prequel to By Sea and Sky, Stoneskin, and when we did that prequel and I did the audiobook, he’s like, “Dude, this is like really good. You should be doing this as a service.”   I was like, “I don’t know about that, that sounds like a lot of work.” He’s like, “It’s not! You obviously know how to do it.” And I was like, “Fine,” and I did it and I have a bunch of clients now who work with me on their audiobooks, whether it’s urban fantasy or sci-fi and all these other genres—romance, I’ve never done romance before. That was interesting to experience.   [40:13]   K: Oh! How was that?   A: It’s definitely a different genre. It’s definitely different from what I’m used to.   R: In audiobooks, no one can see you blush.   [K laughs]   A, laughing: Exactly, exactly! So I started doing that. So I have that going on as well. But then, you know, my main thing, the thing I’m wanting to be my main thing, is my own publishing. Of my books and other works. So, of course, I write these Esowon books, as we’ve been talking about. That’s the sky pirate stuff, the African fantasy inspired stuff, but I’ve also produced a children’s book for another friend of mine, who had a children’s book that he published, I think, in 2012, and he’s like, “Hey, I’ve seen that you have really good quality of your books. Could you re-do my old book?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure! Why not?” And then he actually profited within the first two months, before I even profited on my own works.    K: Oh, wow. Great.   A: I was like, “Oh my god! Children’s books is where it’s at, apparently!” So  I do that, as well. I’ve published… five authors, at this point? Besides myself. Underneath my imprint of Bandele Books. So, yeah, I think that’s everything that I do. My YouTube channel, my editing, publishing, audiobook production, writing. Think that’s everything.   K: Jeez, that is an incredibly… full and talented.   R: Full plate.   K: Full plate, and incredible brand of talents. That’s really, really awesome. Thank you so, so much for taking the time to talk with us about this. This is, you know, like we said, a really cool thing in books that I think are taken for granted by both, well, especially readers, but even sometimes by authors, with how much work and effort and time goes into this.   A: Mhm.   R: Excellent! Well make sure you go and follow Antoine, check out his work on his website. Check out the books, they’re really great! I happen to be biased toward airships. But everyone should be.   K: A little bit.   R: And I’m looking forward to reading the next one and seeing what you add to these maps! Now I’ve got this little piece of candy that I can follow. What’s new? What’s new on the map? I’m gonna be looking at them real closely. Thank you so much, Antoine, and maybe we’ll have to have you back someday to talk about audio production.   A: For sure, yeah! That’d be fun. R: Awesome, thank you so much.   [outro swish]   R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram, or wmbcast.com. If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast.    If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find out podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter.    Thank you so much for listening, and we will talk to you soon!   [outro music plays]   The team Antoine gathered to work on his Esowon books:Cartography - RenFlowerGrapx (Maria Gondolfo): https://www.fiverr.com/renflowergrapxFiona McLaren - DevelopmentalCallan Brown - ContinuityJosiah Davis - Line/CopyeditSutthiwat Dekachamphu - Cover ArtSarayu Ruangvesh - Character ArtOther resources:Brandon Sanderson Creative Writing Lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HOdHEeosc&list=PLSH_xM-KC3Zv-79sVZTTj-YA6IAqh8qeQ

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We are SO excited about this week's episode!  We were luck enough to sit down with the incredible LD Lewis of FIYAH Literary Magazine - a quarterly speculative fiction magazine that features stories by and about the Black people of the African Diaspora.  L is, to say the least, a simply astounding and amazingly talented person who sat down with us to discuss the ins and outs of cover art, design, and direction for a magazine.  To call something like this challenging is an understatement; unlike a novel, a magazine cover has to appeal to the reader while somehow representing the multiple stories and author featured for that issue.  L gave us a look into her process and took the time to explain what she is looking for in a cover artist and how she strives to find the best work to represent what FIYAH is publishing.  FIYAH's covers are commissioned rather than licensed so each one is directed by L and completed by a different artist.  L even had some advice and suggestions for any aspiring artists out there, so be sure to listen to the end! You can, (and should!) check out L online and follow her on the socials: https://ldlewiswrites.com/ Twitter: @Ellethevillain And be sure to check out FIYAH Magazine! https://www.fiyahlitmag.com/   And while we touch on the first annual FIYAHCON (happening this October!), the team has since announced The IGNYTE Awards and are asking for donations to help support the event and the trophies, so toss them some cash to lift underrepresented voices! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the your favorite cover that FIYAH has released so far! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Episode 41: These Covers Are On Fire!! Magazine Cover Art Direction with LD Lewis of FIYAH Literary Magaine!   [0:00]   K: Hi everyone! Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Kaelyn Considine, I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.   R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.   K: And we had such a great time recording this episode. This was a real treat for us. We got to sit down with L. D. Lewis, who, I guess we can’t even call her, specifically, the art director of FIYAH Magazine because it is just one of many hats that she wears.   R: And she was part of the foundation of the magazine as well, so we can’t really just call her the art director.    K: But for this episode, we got to sit down and talk with L about art direction for FIYAH Magazine  and for magazines and publications in general, which is one of the many things that she handles at FIYAH.   R: Yes, yes. So Kaelyn had proposed that we do an Artwork August and I made her promise that we weren’t going to do nine episodes in August.   K: It wasn’t going to be a repeat of Submissions September.   R: And if there’s one thing I know, it’s that FIYAH Magazine covers are just…   K: Beautiful!   R: Jaw-droppers.   K: Absolutely beautiful.   R: Every time. I love them. So, to talk to the person responsible for these—and I did expect that she was going to say that some of them are just licensed pieces of art that, you know, they pick ‘em out and license them because, knowing that it’s a staff of volunteers, I wasn’t sure if the budget was there for commissioning artwork, but no! As you’ll hear, L commissions every piece that goes on a cover of FIYAH Magazine, which is excellent. But let me, I want to introduce FIYAH in general before we get into the episode.   So, if you are not familiar, the title, fiyah, is a colloquialism for fire and it’s an homage to the creators of the Black speculative fiction magazine, FIRE, devoted to younger Negro artists, which was issued in 1926.   K: That’s right, people, that long ago. Almost a hundred years.   R: Oh, god! I wanted to say I feel old, but I wasn’t alive back then. So I don’t have to feel that old. But that one was started by Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, and others. So, that history is there and it’s imbued into FIYAH Magazine. So what happened to bring FIYAH about was that in July of 2016, Fireside Fiction issued a hashtag, #BlackSpecFic. Out of 2,039 stories published in 2015, the report found that only 38 were written by Black authors. 38 out of 2,039. And more than half of all speculative fiction publications did not publish a single original story by a Black author over the span of the previous year.   So P. Djèlí Clark had already pitched the idea for a spec fic version of Fire Magazine and, in response to this report, Troy L. Wiggins, L. D. Lewis, and Justina Ireland, among others, got FIYAH up and running, basically, in response to this. This can’t stand—and it absolutely can’t.    “[FIYAH Magazine] seeks out Black excellence among stories of Black space captains, Black wizards, and Black gods. It is an exploration of what it means to be Black and extraordinary in new, exciting, and refreshing ways and it arrived right on time because the future of genre is now.” That last bit, of course, I’m quoting from their website on their About page.   This is an incredibly worthwhile magazine for everyone, and it should be supported by everyone in the genre and readers of science fiction, because too long now we’ve been reading science fiction by the same group of people, with the same demographic, who have dominated the genre.   Fireside kind of kicked it off with that report, and FIYAH has carried the torch, literally. So they are doing very well, as we talk with L. I don’t think we accented enough that they now have been nominated for awards and such because of the work that they’re doing. And we are very, very happy for them and want to support them.   K: Yeah, the first publication of FIYAH was 2017. They have grown massively in, really, I guess at this point less than three years, coming up on three years.   R: Yeah, it’s just about, actually as this comes out it will probably be really close to the anniversary.   K: Yeah, and to go from not existing to nominated for Hugos within that span of time is—   R: It’s just amazing.   K: —phenomenal and I think really speaks to the quality of work that is being curated by magazines like FIYAH.   R: And not just that, but the professionalism of the covers, as we get into with L in this episode.   K: Absolutely, yeah.   R: A long route to introduce them and to come back to the covers, but we wanted to give them the props for what they’re doing and support them and we suggest you go support them. It’s fiyahlitmag.com and, of course, that will be in the show notes.   K: So, anyway, we had a fantastic time talking with L. If you’re interested at all in cover art or cover design, or maybe you’re an artist, yourself, and thinking of sticking your toe into that pool, L’s got some really great suggestions. Some words of caution and advice, even.   R: If you’re thinking of putting together an anthology, there’s a lot of experience here that you can definitely use.   K: Absolutely. So take a listen, we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: Giant insects everywhere. She’s sending me pictures of stuff that she’s finding hanging out on her kitchen counter. [laughs]   L: Yeah, that’s accurate. I didn’t know you could have a pill bug infestation, but they’re somewhere under the concrete slab and they keep getting into the house and I don’t understand it.   R: And it’s not Animal Crossing where you can just catch them and sell them.   L: It’s not, no! A couple of times I’m like, “ew, spider! I’m going to catch you! Wait, no. What?”   R: Yep, I do that with dragonflies every day.   L: That’s what this game has done to me. But, no, no you have to die. This is the real world, you shouldn’t be here.   R: There’s no chameleon that will adore you forever.   K: Okay, so I don’t play Animal Crossing, but I still am playing Pokemon GO, so you know I understand the seeing something and just being like, “Ah, yes! For my—oh, wait no. Nevermind.”   R: So today we are sitting here with the lovely L. D. Lewis, who is a friend of mine and a fantastic author and also the art director of FIYAH literary magazine. L, I don’t wanna step on your toes. I wanna let you introduce yourself. So, why don’t you go into your introduction, as much as you wanna say about your own author career, because we also talk about writing on this podcast. And tell us a little bit about FIYAH magazine, too.   L: Okay, well, I am all of those things you just said. I am an art director for FIYAH literary magazine, we are Hugo nominated and I can’t wait to lose that award tonight.   [R makes a frowning noise]   L: We [laughs], we’ve been around since about 2016 which means that cover-wise we are on our… I wanna say sixteenth issue, coming out in October.    K: Okay.   L: Apart from that, I am an author, primarily of fantasy or science fantasy, some kind of merger.   R: That’s a mood.   L: I don’t know what I am.    R: Same!   L: I write the stuff. I write the stuff, I send it to people. I have them tell me what it is.   R: Exactly!   K, laughing: “Listen, here’s how we’re gonna market this!” “Oh, cool, that’s what that is. Awesome. Thank you for letting me know.”   L: Exactly. That’s my life. I sold a reprint recently, to Lightspeed, for a story, my short story “Moses” that appeared in Anathema: Spec From the Margins, I believe, April of last year. I didn’t know what genre that was when I wrote it.   K, laughing: I love it.   L: Much less that it would end up anywhere other than Anathema, so that’s kinda cool. mY writer career is kind of taking a back seat to all of my random mini-careers that popped up during the pandemic. So now I’m directing a convention, FIYAH Con. That’s going great. I’m also a researcher on the LeVar Burton Reads podcast. And I’m sticking my nose in a couple other editorial places as well, so.   K: So, a wearer of many hats.   L: Yes, and headphones.   [R laughs]   K, laughing: And headphones, yes! So do you wanna tell us a little bit about FIYAH magazine and your role there?   L: FIYAH, as I said, started in 2016. Our first publication year was 2017. We’ve won a World Fantasy Award. We’ve been nominated for two Hugos, I wanna say. And we’ve had some of our poetry features get Rhysling Awards. Our cover artist for our first year, Geneva Benton, now Geneva… Bowers… she got married. Yay.   K: Yay.   L: She won a Hugo for Best Fan Artist and she did all four of our first year’s covers. After her, we actually did one artist per issue. She just did all four for the first year because we were like, “We don’t know how this is gonna go, or if anybody’s gonna pay any attention to us. So we’ll just stick with the one artist, not make it too complicated.” And that actually went super well.   We will be a professional paying market as of, actually, our upcoming, our October issue. We’ll be able to pay SIFL qualifying rates.    K: Congratulations, that’s very exciting.   L: Yeah! We used to do our subscriber drive in October, but kind of State of the World things popped up and people kind of threw money at us, so.   [10:30]   R: I think you got boosted with a couple of people with a few extra followers and suddenly your subscribers were doubling, was it?   L: Yeah, we have over 1600 subscribers now.    K: That’s fantastic.   L: I think we were somewhere around the mid-300s pretty much since inception.    K: That’s great!   L: So now we’re pro-qualifying and we’ve got a convention for some reason.   R: And I will mention, for anyone who somehow hasn’t heard of FIYAH magazine, it’s comprised entirely of Black speculative fiction.    L: Yes. And by Black, we mean Black anywhere in the world. It’s African Diaspora but we are based in the States and so we publish writers who live in Africa or in Europe somewhere, or if you are an Afro-appended person you can be published. And we also—all of our cover artists are also Black.   K: Awesome.   R: Which is excellent. And so if you’re out there thinking, “How do I find more Black writers?”    L: This is…   R: L and her team are putting them together right in front of your face. Go subscribe! They’re also, I have to say, and this is why you’re here today, the covers are just so luscious and so amazing. I just want to wallpaper the house in them. The colors…   L, laughing: Luscious? That’s—   R: They are, though. They’re so—    L: No, that’s exactly the right—it’s definitely [laughs]   K: Um, yeah. They’re gorgeous, amazing covers. So, let’s jump right into that. How do you find these? How do you pick things like this? Is it the most fun in the world or is it maddening because you can only pick one per issue?   L: It’s maddening because we haven’t been able to pay artists as much as I would like to pay them.   K: Okay, all right.   L: So that’s probably my only issue. I find them primarily via social media. Like, every time there’s a Drawing While Black hashtag or something, that pretty much sucks up the rest of my day because I’m kind of trawling to see who I might wanna tag and solicit for artwork. Right now we actually have a submission window for our portfolios, over on the website fiyahlitmag.com/submissions. That’ll be going through August 20th. But I do pick some people from the slush. Olivia Stephens, I believe I got her from the slush. Wait—do art directors have slushes or am I just calling submissions piles that by default now?   K: I think you have… portfolio—what’s the correct term here? Portfolio slush piles? If you have a slush pile of portfolios, what do you call it?   R: As a graphic designer, I have never heard that my portfolio will go into a slush pile. So I think just, um, portfolios? I don’t…   K: Portfolio collection, yeah.   R: Submissions works. I don’t know.   L: Okay, yeah. So the submissions, yes, when they come in I look at those and we, in our first year, I believe our first two years, each one of our issues was themed. And so I kind of would base people’s art styles on how well they fit the specific theme. So it’s not like I would just pick four artists and randomly distribute assignments. It would just be, your style is best suited to something dealing with animals, in the case of Dominique Ramsay. So you’re going to do this animal or this nature-themed cover. Stuff like that.   K: I imagine you get a lot of portfolios sent to you. I can tell you, just at Parvus Press we get a lot of unsolicited emails for, “Hey! I’m trying to—I either do or am trying to get into cover design. Here’s my portfolio if you want to take a look!” And the way we handle that is: if it’s something where I’m like, “Maybe in the future we’ll have some interest or use for this,” we just flag it. Do you—are there certain things you’re looking for in a portfolio?    Do you solicit artists directly or do you tend to collect what’s out there and see what fits? Or is it a combination of both?   L: It’s a bit of a combination. When I do my social media searches for things, it’s things that just kind of fall into my lap, so to speak. But in some cases I will get a direct submission, in the case of our open calls. Which we don’t do often. It really just depends on whether or not I have, in my head, filled out who’s going to be doing covers for the following year. It’s just… it’s a hybrid method. I do get unsolicited things. When I do, they just get deleted unread. Like, I’m very much—if I spend hours cobbling together these submission guidelines or I’ve set up this form for you to use for submissions—   K, approvingly: Absolutely! Yep.   L: You have to use it! Because I’m not going to go out of my way to, you know—This is not gonna be a situation where you’re going to be like that diamond in the rough. Like, “Oh, well I didn’t follow the submission guidelines and still loved it anyway!” I don’t care. [laughs]   K: No, listen—   L: Yeah, I will delete.   K: I’m an acquisitions editor. I have the same issues. If we’re not open for submissions, don’t send me things. And if we are open for submissions, you need to submit through that portal. It’s one of those, you’re not more special than all of these other people.   L: Exactly.   K: But, along those lines, you’re dealing with a very interesting scenario, as opposed to doing art design and direction for a novel because you’re doing magazines. These come out frequently. They have multiple contributors, multiple pieces in each issue, and you probably have to get the art for this well before you know what’s actually going to be in the issue.   L: I do so many other things for the magazine that I kind of knock out my art director duties as quickly as I can, so I can focus on those things. So, I do the actual issue composition; the formatting of all the digital issues; and getting everything going in terms of the newsletter; and updating shot pages on the website; and all these other things. So this is pretty much done, pending my availability. So, in August or early September I’ll make story selections. In August, the team also decides on the next year’s themes or whether or not we’re going to have any.    K: Okay.   L: Next year we’re doing— Or, in 2021 rather, we’re doing two themed issues and two unthemed issues. So, now that I know what to expect in terms of the themed issues, I then go into the people that I’ve bookmarked in the back-channel and see who would be a good fit for those two. And then, for the unthemed issues, it’s really just, in terms of the direction I give them is based off of themes that I have in my head, essentially.   K, laughs: Okay.    [R laughs]   K: No, that’s great.   L: It’s things that wouldn’t fit if the stories in an unthemed issue are varied, the cover art is yet another story being told. Just in a different medium. So, it doesn’t have to fit, necessarily, in terms of the prose and the poetry, in order to be its own self-contained story. So when we have artists do those things, we then interview them—and we post those when we do cover drops—on their process and what story it is they’re trying to tell with their illustration. And it’s usually very interesting and it’s good to see that after artists end up on our covers, they end up getting agents. They end up getting other assignments—more ~prestigious~ than ours, probably—but I’m always a very happy art director mom when that happens.   K: That’s fantastic. So, along those lines, I’m gonna ask two questions here that maybe kind of overlap. One is, you’ve mentioned artists that you’ve bookmarked, so to speak, that you have in mind for certain themes, or artists that you just wanna use for non-themed issues: what makes you bookmark someone? And then, the second question is: how much variety do you try to get across your issue covers? Do you ever come up against, “Ugh, I really like these two artists, but I’ve gotta space them out because their styles are a little similar,” do you make a deliberate attempt to have a lot of variety between issues and the covers? Or whatever you come across that you like and think works, that’s what you’re going with?   R: Also, within sixteen issues, you have maybe developed a house style of some sort, that you could use as a guide.   [19:58] L: Yeah, I love particularly Black artists’ use of color. There’s, I want zero negative space where possible. Artists have to have an understanding of composition. I don’t want someone to have these grand images and then constantly have a lot of little details in the lower third of the cover, because that’s where we have our logo and the table of contents, things like that. So it’s… it’s not—let me think. I don’t think that we’ve ever had anyone’s styles who were too similar. I don’t try and compare them to each other. Moreso, the styles that are popular in other medias.    So if it’s clear from your portfolio that you’ve gotten an entirely anime style, it’s probably not going to work with us. Or if your style is modelled extensively after Steven Universe, that’s probably not going to be a great use, either. I think in the beginning, after Geneva, it was definitely—because we had four covers of that person’s style. At that point, it become, “Okay, well let’s make sure that whoever we get for this year, their work doesn’t piggyback too much on that.” Because we don’t want to get pigeonholed as having just this one type of art style. The sort of whimsical, femme vibe that she does. But I think, to that extent, we’ve diversified pretty well.    I think, probably, our most interesting cover, in terms of a departure from like a simple, character-based illustration was probably Sophia Zarders’. It would be Issue #12—Yeah, that’s her. It’s different, definitely.    K: You know, you had specifically mentioned things like, maybe, somebody whose art style is modeled maybe primarily off of Steven Universe or anime. That’s not gonna be a good fit for you. Do you have levels of technique that you’re looking for when choosing artists to work with? Or is it just you rule out by style?         L: Definitely, I think some level of technique has something to do with it. There needs to be an understanding of composition, something coherent about color theory. It has to be something that’s not drawn on lined paper in someone’s notebook somewhere. It really, there has to be some sort of refinement to it that differentiates it from a sketch.   K: I guess, yeah, refinement is the word I was looking for there, yeah.   L: Yeah, it’s—the bulk of what I receive is sort of on that sketch level, but I’m all about it because, I mean, shoot your shot wherever.   K: Mhm.   L: But in terms of actually making the cover, some level of—I have to get the sense that you take this craft of illustration, of drawing, whatever, I have to get the sense from it that you’ve taken it seriously enough to put some study into it. Rather than just practice.   K: Gotcha.   L: I don’t think there’s anything that automatically becomes a disqualifier, in terms of when I’m looking for those things. But, yeah, I just have to be able to tell you put some effort into it.   K: I’m assuming: have a portfolio, have spent a lot of time and work on this already, and not just like, “I did this one drawing, here you go.”    L: Yeah. There’s—I yell at people a lot about their websites.   [R smirks]   K, laughing: Ohoho! I understand why you and Rekka are friends now.   [all laugh]   L: I design them, first and foremost. And I’ve done that since forever, since like high school. We had a whole mentorship thing, that’s where I had to learn it. So when I can’t access your body of work or your contact information, the only things that you have sent me are pictures you’ve taken out of your doodle book, it’s—   K, amused: Do you really get that?   L: It’s gonna make me not wanna work with you.   K, laughing: Is that a thing that actually happens?   L: Oh, gosh…   [K laughs]   L, laughing: Yeah. And there’s definitely another conversation to be had about that. But it’s just, it’s kind of—there’s an expectation of, particularly, intra-community, that you’re automatically going to support someone because of shared racial or ethnic experiences. And so some people use that as a way to determine, “Okay, well I can just send any old thing and because they’re pro-Black and I am Black, that’s the marriage. That’s how this is gonna happen.” That’s not how this is gonna happen.    [K laughs]   L: So, I do send—when I send rejections, I try not to disparage anyone. I definitely want to continue to be encouraging and I wanna encourage the artists’ growth and if you come back and submit to me next year, I’d love to see, at least, that you’re still at it and still working on improving. But I think that we have reached a point where we can reasonably expect a certain amount of professionalism and refinement in the work. And I think you can really tell who actually has subscribed or read or knows anything about what we do, by what they send us.   K: Yeah.   L: So I can tell when you’re just an artist trying to make money, versus someone who wants to be part of FIYAH as an entity.    K: Yeah, and somebody who has a love and appreciation for the genre—   L: Exactly.   K: —I think, is very important in, especially something like—it sounds strange calling a magazine cover that’s gonna include multiple contributing authors and, probably some additional artists in there, as well, a very personal thing, but it is a very personal thing. I would imagine, especially on your end. You have a gargantuan responsibility of choosing a piece of artwork to not represent just one author being showcased in there, there’s multiple. And you’ve gotta find something that’s gonna serve everyone that’s being represented in that particular issue. So that’s something that I couldn’t do. [laughs]   When I work on a novel, I flag parts of the book where I’m like, “This is a good scene that could serve as a great cover. This is, you know, here are some thematic elements that we can really emphasize in that,” and even that can be very overwhelming when it’s just one story that you’re trying to build a good picture representation of. Obviously, it’s a little bit different per magazine, what you’re putting on the cover, what you’re trying to show, but it’s still incredibly difficult, I would imagine.   R: And you don’t just have to represent the stories, but since FIYAH is the name on the cover,  you’re also representing FIYAH magazine at the same time and that does seem like a lot to try and balance in your mind as you go through it.   Well, at the same time, pictures are really cool-looking so sometimes you can just go, “Oh that’s a cool picture. That inspires me to want something like this.”   [L and K laugh]   R: In a person’s portfolio.   K: Yeah, and so then that’s what I was gonna ask is how do you find that balance between like, “Wow I really like this artist and I think they’re doing cool things,” and then because you’re commissioning these, so you’re giving them direction, you’re having to tell them, “I’m looking for something like this.” You know, we talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the episode, but to the listener, just to be clear, L is finding artists and then getting them to create something new for the issue of the magazine. That’s what it means—just for clarity’s sake—that’s what it means when we say that she’s commissioning these covers.   So it’s not finding a picture and going, “That’s great, I’m gonna license it and then we’re gonna put it on the cover of that issue.” You’re having to give them direction. So, do you have an approach to that? Do you let them give you ideas, or do you go to them with the ideas? Or a combination of the two?   L: I usually go to them with the ideas. I think, probably, the most successful example would be our Issue #3 cover, the Sundown Towns issues, which has been, in terms of prints and things, it’s been wildly, by far our bestseller. It’s the cover where there’s a girl and she’s got these mirrored shades on and in the mirrored shades there’s just a horizon of things she’s going to have to beat down with this bat with the nails in it that’s like strung from her back.   R: I do love that cover.   K: I’ll just—sorry to interrupt real quick. All of the previous covers are on FIYAH’s website. So if you’re listening to this going, “Oh, that sounds really cool!” You can go see them on there.   L: Exactly.   R: Yep. And buy the back-issues.   K: Yes.   L: Buy everything! I mean, there’s a shop with merch in it and the covers there are actually prints.   R: So I could wallpaper my house if it weren’t stone.   L: Yeah, you can check ‘em all out, support ‘em there. And actually purchases of prints, be they framed or not, a portion of those sales actually do go back to the artist.   R: Excellent.   L: So we’re not just pocketing all of that. For the issue #3 cover, the theme was Sundown Towns and so I wanted to, I actually think I directed that one fairly closely. I generally try to say, “Okay, so here’s what I’m thinking,” even if it’s not a themed issue. “Here’s what I’m thinking thematically for the cover, open to your interpretation on that.” With issue #3, I was a bit more hands on and I was like, “Okay, so I want to get this impression. It’s a sundown situation, I want this character, we’ll do a torso proportion, and I want to be able to see something on this horizon at sundown that’s going to—I want danger, I want menace, but I want this character to be marginally unbothered by it.” And you can see that with the toothpick basically lolling in her mouth. Like, she’s ready.   K: She straight does not give a fuck.    L: Yeah, and so however it is I worded that, Geneva just took it and did this miraculous thing and I was like, “This is amazing! I’m an amazing art director!”   [all laugh]    L: So I think that was the one I was probably the most hands-on with and I think was realized in a really cool way. I had direction in a lot of subsequent covers, but particularly where there’s a theme, I’m like, “Here’s our theme, I’m thinking… this or this or this or this, also open to your interpretation, so if you have any pictures or whatever just let me know, we can hash it out.” It ends up working pretty well most of the time. I think the Chains issue—I selected Sophia because in her portfolio there was a lot of political work. A lot of protest type designs as well. So I definitely wanted to get her take on the Chains issue. And that came out amazingly.   And there is—I don’t think there intended there to be a political message there, but if there was she did a great job illustrating it.   R: You mentioned when it goes really, really well it seems to just—they’re reading your mind, an image you didn’t even know was there, and then it’s just fantastic. So, when you have to get a little bit more in up to your wrists on the art direction and send them back, maybe, for additional rounds of thumbnails or something. Has that happened, and how do you manage not just the product that you’re going to get at the end, but the communication and happiness of both parties?   L: So when I start the commissions, it’s a pretty wide window for them to get the work done. And then I’ll check in periodically, or they’ll send me progress updates, asking about colors or composition or, usually, to get an idea of how it’s going to be set up on the cover with the title and everything, just to make sure that there’s nothing going to be lost in the details that’ll only be available on the larger prints. Because we don’t put the table of contents or anything on those.   K: Gotcha.   L: But yeah, we check in periodically. By periodically, it could be a month, it could be two months. If I’m commissioning you August 202 and you’re doing the October 2021 issue. I mean, I commission everybody at the same time.    K: Okay.   L: Once I have you finalized, just let me know when you want to get to work and I’ll send your deposit, is how that works. So, over the course of time, if I’ve needed to send anything back—I think it’s happened maybe one or two times. There was an issue with—Oh, yeah, well Sophia. She was our first cover to incorporate a border, and so later on when I ended up remastering the issues—’cause that did happen. Because I can’t just leave stuff alone—we ended up resizing it and so the proportions for that couldn’t be altered without losing the border, so we had some issues there. A little bit that kinda needed to be addressed. But that was mostly on my end, not really her fault.   Couple of times there were some color issues that got sent back. And it’s really just a matter of, “You’ve sent me this thumbnail, you’ve asked for feedback, here’s the feedback.” There’s nothing that really needs to be, you know, nothing for anyone to get emotional about. So there haven’t been any catastrophes, thus far. Mostly any drops in communication that have ended up in a cover perhaps being rushed, you can’t tell which cover it was, so it worked out.   K: Excellent.   L: But, yeah. It’s all pretty straightforward.   R: That’s very good.   K: Well, I’m jealous because it’s not always straightforward with the people I’ve worked with and dealt with. You know, it’s very hard to take an image out of your head, or a sentiment you’re trying to communicate, like this intangible idea, and say, “Now put it on a piece of paper for me.”   L: I think that’s where my work as a writer actually helps because I do that myself. Like there’s an image in my head and I have to put it into words, so I think if I wasn’t able to do it in the beginning, becoming an art director has kind of helped me do the reverse. I have an image in my head that I have to put into words enough for you to replicate the image in my head.   K: Along those lines, do you have any hard requirements that, when you’re working with an artist and you’re commissioning work from them, you—It doesn’t need to be a specific thing, but your art must display: this. I imagine use of color is very important. Art-related things. But do you have any requirements of things that you want to appear in all of your covers, be they themes or specific elements?   L: It’s largely, here’s what I’m thinking in my head, open to your interpretation on it. I think that any requirements, subconscious or otherwise, that I have factor into the selection process, but once they’ve been selected it’s at that point I’m like, “Okay, well because I picked you, because I trust you to have some type of vision for this that you’ll be able to execute.”   K: Okay.   L: There was a situation where I had to sidestep someone’s submission because the issue was me. I was not confident enough in my communication abilities to get what I had in my head out of them.   K: Okay.   L: So to speak. So it, sometimes a rejection is not your work isn’t good enough, we can’t use you right now. It’s that I’m not sure how to get the best work out of you, and that’s on me.   K: I assume you have multiple conversations with the artists before commissioning them, before giving them a deposit. Do you kind of talk to them about, “Hey, I’m looking for this specific thing,” or do you start by just talking to get a feel for them and see if they’re somebody that you want to work with?   L: The process is different in solicits and submissions. So, in terms of submissions, I ask for a bio and that kind of acts as your cover letter. If you’re rude—   [R laughs knowingly]   L: —when I ask you for your cover letter, I’m not gonna work with you. If you send in a portfolio which includes demands and details about how you will not accept direction or direction will be an additional fee, then I’m not going to work with you.   K: Oh my goodness! That happens??   L: Really, in the submission process, that’s my first glimpse into your personality. So I don’t have to give you the 12th degree later on when actually trying to get work from you. I’m looking at all of your submission materials. If you’ve got a great portfolio, but a shit attitude—I don’t know if I can cuss here, sorry—   R: Yes, absolutely. Have at it.   L: We’re not going to work together and good luck having anyone else work with you because I’m so reasonable.    K: I always say, you know, in acquisitions, and I’ve said this multiple times on this podcast, your first part of the “interviews” portion of the submissions process is: can you follow the submissions guideline?   L: Exactly. If you can’t follow instructions, if you’ve got a chip on your shoulder, attitude problem, it’s not gonna work. I’m sorry.   K: It is something that consistently amazes me, the attitude problems I come across. Where it’s like, “Don’t you understand this is a relationship? I’m hiring you to work with me. Why, all you’re showing me is why I shouldn’t.”   L: Exactly. So, I get that being a creative is a work of ego. In any medium, it’s a work of ego. So you’re going to be protective of your work and you’re going to be confident if it’s something you intend to sell. You cannot be a dick. It’s a universal rule, and one that people don’t seem to follow.   K: I will even take that a step farther and say that I understand the protectiveness of your work and your time. I understand wanting to make sure you’re not gonna get jerked around, but there’s ways to do that and be polite, if not at least professional.   L: Exactly.   K: I will take professional, even. [laughs] I can work with that. Okay, so that’s actually a good segue into one of the last questions I had here. Dos and Don’ts. Maybe any advice you have for people who are interested in trying to get into design and cover art and, you know, things you like, things you don’t like?   L: UPDATE. YOUR. FREAKING. WEBSITE.   [all laugh]   L: And by update—   K: I think that’s gonna be the title of this episode. We’re just gonna get Rekka a framed picture that says that, yeah.   L, speaking plainly: By update, I mean… to have portfolio samples of your most recent work because it should be your most improved, your most developed work! Available and easily accessible on your website. Social media. Stick it in your bio. If you don’t have a website, which is fine, some people don’t. Our submission form allows you to alternatively just submit work samples, if you don’t have a website I can get to. Fine.   When you’re sending your work samples, make sure that the work samples are a good fit for the gig you are applying for. If I say we are a speculative fiction magazine, do you know what speculative fiction is? If you don’t, look it up. I’ll give you a hint: it’s on our website. The same website you’re using to view our submission guidelines. Which you should also be reading thoroughly. And implementing in your submission.   And I say this. In the slowest, clearest way I know how. Because for some reason, when I get off this recording, I’m going to go into my inbox and there’s going to be some someone who has sent me… something they drew on their desk in high school and think it’s going to be cool to submit to the magazine. It’s not. It’s a photo of your dog. It’s a gorgeous rendering. In Sharpie…   [R and K giggle]   L:  It’s not a good fit for a magazine.     K, laughing: Oh my God, my heart is singing right now! This is… I have not given exactly that talk, but you could paraphrase large chunks of it.   R: The volume of salt in the talk is about equal.   L: Yes, I’m very—I don’t know how much clearer I can be. When people are discussing speculative fiction, know that it’s sci-fi, fantasy, horror, assorted subgenres. And if you’re applying to be on a cover of a publication of speculative fiction, make sure that you know that. And that the works that you submit reflect that you know the venue you’re… proposing to, essentially.    K, contrarily: Maybe that dog was a magical dog.   L: But it wasn’t because it was just furry. It was just a dog. That’s it. If he was in a mech suit, there you go. Speculative fiction all the way. Give me the dog in the mech, it’s fine.   K: With a good cybernetic eyepatch.   L: Yes! Yup.    K: Maybe like some satellites coming out of his ears. Something.   L: Does he have wings? Give me dogs with mech suits and wings. It’s fine. I can work with that! I cannot work with… the photorealistic rendition of your grandmother. It’s not going to work for a speculative fiction magazine. So [clears throat] apart from that, really, it’s more than just a scattershot of finding places that will give you money to produce artwork.   It’s—you have to have an actual interest in the venue because for three to four months at a time, you are going to be the face of it. As the, you know, as the cover artist that’s going to be the cover. The first cover people see when they approach us on social media or on our website or anything. You are the newest thing, you should want to know what it is that you’re representing.   K: That’s another good question. I mean, you guys have a really, I don’t think it’s going too far to say, important mission statement. You have something that is really representative and significant, still, in the community. If you have an artist come to you and they just do not have a clue about, you know, any of this. The realm you’re working in and trying to promote, is that a dealbreaker for you, or…?   L: Yes.   K: Okay.   L: Absolutely. Yeah. I am a wearer of many hats. I am a busy person. I don’t have time to entertain or educate people on information that’s readily available if they would have elected to actually educate themselves. I am very friendly in customer service emails. I am not friendly in emails that show you did not read the required material.   R: Mhm.   K, laughing: Good!   L: You know, mostly when I send rejections, it’s: Thank you so much for submitting! Here’s where—Like, I’m gonna keep you in the catalogue, I encourage you to keep writing to us, submit to us next year. Whatever. For rejections to people who clearly had no idea what they were sending me, it’s like: okay, this submission failed to meet the guidelines. Here’s where. Thanks. And that’s that.   R: Yeah.   L: I try to—I think our submission guidelines have been tweaked multiple times a year since inception because we keep trying to catch those people who are, willfully, just ignoring things. And I’ve come to realize that there’s no way to do that. People are just gonna do what they do.   K: Yes, it’s true. Yeah.   R: It’s a shame that you create these guidelines as a filter to keep these people out, but it’s still so manual. You still have to say you have to abide by them, and then I have to review it and I have to go, “Oh, come on. Really.”      L: Right!   K: Well, I mean, you also have people that just look at it and go, “Meh, I’m good enough. They won’t care.”   L: Yeah, and I promise you, you’re not.    [47:58]      [all laugh]   L, not sorry: I’m sorry.   K: Trust me, I run up against the same thing where it’s like, I have actually gotten unsolicited manuscripts sent to me that I’m kinda like, “Oh, this is… I’m not doing backflips over it, but this isn’t bad. I could certainly be interested in this, but we don’t accept unsolicited manuscripts. Sorry.”   L: Yeah, and I don’t even get that far. You send me unsolicited stuff and I’m just… okay, cool. Delete. And that’s that. Noooo you don’t get a response email because you don’t follow directions, so.   K: Yeah, I’m guilty of sometimes opening those things out of curiosity. I’m very—   [L giggles]   K: Well, especially because—granted, I’m dealing with novels, so a lot of times people just copy and paste their query letter into the email—Yeah, I know. Sometimes I can’t help but catch a few words where I’m sort of like, “Alright, I gotta open this and see, is this actually interesting or is this a dumpster fire on a train wreck?” And, I’ll give you a guess which one it frequently is.   L: Yeah. It’s never—It would be different if the people who sent in unsolicited works were qualified. But it’s always the ones who need further development, who also can’t seem to follow instructions. So I wonder if there’s a correlation.   K: I’m gonna go ahead and guess yes, but…   L: Yeah.   [all laugh]   K: But, yeah, okay. So I would imagine, especially just in the part of speculative fiction that you’re working in and what you’re trying to promote and make more common, more accessible to everyone. Having some, if not involvement knowledge of, at least some awareness of the existence of this. Yeah, that’s incredibly important. And I would imagine it would be very difficult to work with somebody who didn’t, at that point.   L: Yeah. We’re—FIYAH is very much mission-based. And so we’re not going to work with anybody, if it’s a writer, if it’s a sponsor, if it’s a poet, if it’s an artist, we’re not gonna work with anyone who doesn’t serve that mission—    K: Yeah.   L: —in the best possible way. So if it’s, you know, I like to see that representing us well is a priority for you when you submit work to us. So if that’s not the case, then you can find some other magazine to be on the cover of.   R: Yeah, that’s great.   K: Absolutely. So, that’s all the questions I had. Rekka, anything?   R: UM. I have the technical questions, but we did go a little long on the first half, so I’m not gonna take up too much of L’s time because, as she mentioned, she’s wearing many hats. It’s already a busy day and it’s supposed to be a Friday, but we don’t know what those mean anymore. But—   K: But the Hugos are tonight, so at least we have that to know what calendar day it is, if not day of the week.   L: I actually still don’t know what calendar day it is because it’s in New Zealand time and…   K: Oh god, you’re right!   R: Yeah, and you can’t miss the ceremony, that’s for sure.   L: I probably can.   K: Wha—?   L: I think we know who’s gonna win. I think we do. I’m not gonna say any names, but I’m pretty sure.   R: Well, I know who I voted for at the top of my ballot, so. I’m still crossing my fingers for you guys. But, my technical questions. Just a couple quick ones. So, you are commissioning covers for what is, primarily, so far, digital only.   L: Correct.   R: So that lets you do a couple of neat things, but I wonder, does FIYAH have any tickle in the back of their mind, collectively, about doing print issues or anthology Year’s Best Of kind of things in the future? And what does that mean for you, your planning?   L: So, we have—Our initial thought, I think, after Year 2, was to put together an omnibus of the years’ issues and sell those as kind of a box set, if you will. Didn’t pan out. I think there was a contract snafu where we had to like stop that. And then starting in Year 3, we added the clause to the contract that would allow us to get anthology rights and things. We would love—I would, personally, love to do a print issue. Like, annual print things. But I’d want to add more stuff to it. Which probably isn’t a great use of the editorial team’s time. So we’ve kind of stuck a pin in that.   It’s also super expensive and we just got all of this money. And so our priority is to make sure that we’re paying our contributors well. So if we can keep that up and then, maybe some money coming in from the convention can go towards, you know, funding print aspirations. That would be nice, too. But we hope to get there one day. I don’t know what it would change, apart from the timeline. In terms of when we request work, how long we give people to create it, when it’s due on a print schedule and stuff.   I did editorial work for Fireside Fiction and, so, Pablo’s been really great in like a mentorship capacity, in terms of learning the ropes of print stuff.   K: And that’s Pablo Defendini?   L: Yes. So, I’ve just made sure that I’ve absorbed whatever I could from my experience over there, in hope of taking it over to FIYAH and see what we can do with that. I’m hoping to have something commemorative printed by this con next year.   K: Okay.   L: That’s kind of in a super nebulous space right now, along with everything else in the world. So, that’s it. So, if things in the world happen, maybe this will happen.   R: Yeah.   L: We will, hopefully, be able to pull that off. But I think we’re looking at it as kind of a one-off thing, sort of experimental, to see if it’s going to be a sustainable model going forward. It would be cool if someone were to reach out—someone from a publishing house would reach out and want to back yearly anthologies. I think we’d be super into that. But we just don’t have the money for it right now.   R: Yeah.    K: Anthologies are very expensive. They’re worth it, but they are very expensive and they are multiple times more time-consuming than a single book.   L: Yeah.   K: It’s um. As Rekka mentioned, we did ITGO, the science fiction political anthology, If This Goes On. It was fun, but it was… I… it took a couple years off my life, to be sure.   [all laugh]   L: That’s my understanding.   K: Yeah.   L: I have the technical skills, I’ve been working with the Adobe suite of products for… wow, I’m old. Far too long. So, you know, when we’re ready for print. I’m ready, but we just gotta get there funding-wise.   R: The saturation of color in your covers, I was worried if you ever did a print issue that you were going to lose some of it going to the CMYK, but that’s a me-thing. That’s not even.   L: I mean, that’s probably something to consider. But, I mean, that’s probably something we’d work through with the printer. Everything that gets turned in to us, I think the only traditional media—Odera is doing the Joy issue and that one’s being painted—   K: Oh! Okay.   L: So, I mean, we’d have some media considerations to work through. But I think a lot of that would depend on what the capabilities were of our printer and we’d figure it out. I always figure it out. We’ll figure it out.   R: Oh! And another thing I forgot to mention was that because you’re a digital magazine, you got to put that one cover on your website, and I noticed it was animated.   L: Yeeeeeah. B)   R: So that is extra fun.   L: Yeah, I wanna do another animated—I wanna do at least one animated. I mean, those are more expensive, obviously, because it’s an additional skill set, but yeah. I wanna do more of those. I figure we’re a digital venue, so we can have some fun with it. Same thing with virtual conventions. You can do some different fun things with it—   K: Yeah, absolutely.   L: —just because it’s digital. It doesn’t have to be something that’s on a lower tier than a physical book or a physical event.   R: So we’re referring to Issue #13 which, if you view at their website, you see a great illustration to begin with, then you get a pause and then a nice little message that just warms the heart.   L, giggling: And other things!   R: Yeah. Did you work with the artist directly on the animation, was that part of the commissioned artist, or did you then take it to somebody who animated it after? Or did you do it yourself?   L: No, that was part of the deal with the artist. Steffi has an amazing portfolio and so I went through it and there were animation samples in there and I was like, “Ohh! Ooh! Let’s do that!”   [all laugh]   L: So I went back and I was like, “Heyyyy! So I wanna bring you on board. I wanna have you do this cover. It’s unthemed, but we’re thinking about adding some animated components to it. How much would you charge for that?” And that’s pretty much how that happened.   That was really fun, and I wanna do another one. I’m hoping to find some more animation in portfolios in the Ye Olde Art slush.   R: So if you are an artist listening to this episode, you’ve just been giving a leg-up in terms of what L wants to see.   K: Uh-huh, some inside info there.   L: Yeah, I wanna do at least one animated cover. It doesn’t have to be one of the themed ones. But I wanna kind of do at least one of those a year.   K: So, L, along those lines, just to wrap up here. You currently,  by the time this episode comes out, you’ll be open for submission for nine days more? It’s coming out August 11th and you’re open till the 20th you said, correct?   L: Correct, yes.   K: And where can people find you guys to submit?    L: Fiyahlitmag.com—F-I-Y-A-H-l-i-t-m-a-g dot com. There is a submissions link on the homepage. You can go to fiyahlitmag.com/submissions and find all the additional information there. It does involve an AirTable form. So if you are unable to access it for accessibility reasons, you can just shoot me an email at art@fiyahlitmag.com and I will send you an alternative means of submission.   K: And we’ll link that link in the show notes and if you haven’t already come away with this notion—well, that’s probably a different issue, you haven’t been paying attention—Please read the submissions guidelines!    [all laugh]   L: Please! Because I will totally subtweet you if you don’t. Like… come on.   K: It’s just gonna be… you’re just gonna get a link to this episode of the podcast. And just…   L: Yeah. In fact, that’s what I do. If you send me work without reading the submission guidelines, I am going to send you an email that’s just the submission guidelines link. That’s it.   R: That’s more than you deserve.   L: Yeah. And it’s passive-aggressive, but it makes me feel good. So that’s what we’re doing.   K: Gotta get those wins where you can take them. Well, L, thanks so much, really, for taking the time to talk to us on such a busy and important day for you. We really, really appreciate it. IS there anything you’d like to leave us with before we sign off here? R: Or where can people find you, et cetera.   L: My website, ldlewiswrites.com has all of my published works thus far. There may or may not be a novel included in it at some point. Who knows? I have a story coming out in the Glitter and Ashes anthology coming out whenever that comes out. I’m sure you guys can help find that.   R: I think it’s September, at this point, was Dave’s last estimate.   L: Okay. Well that’s cool. That’ll be the only thing I have coming out this year ‘cause… I have started too many non-writing things and I have to cut that out. FIYAH Con is theconvention.fiyahlitmag.com. That event is online and taking place October 17th and 18th. It’s gonna be super fun. I’m very excited about some things we have coming up to announce in the next couple of weeks. And it is a virtual convention centering Black and Indigenous people of color and their contributions to speculative fiction, so.   K: Great! Very cool.   L: People are like, “Oh! FIYAH’s all Black people, but what about… why is it everybody else in the convention?” Because I said so. So there.   [K laughs]   L: Black Lives Matter. Give the land back. And that’s it from me.   R: Thank you so much for joining us! And I’m so glad that I know you because I love these covers and, like, that was my first thought when Kaelyn said she wanted to do book covers as a topic for August. I was like, “I KNOW the book covers! That I wanna talk about!” So I’m so glad you were available and thank you so much for your time and keep going awesome work because you are doing excellent, excellent awesome work.   L: Well, thank you so much for having me. I look forward to seeing you both on the internet somewhere.   R: Same.   K: Thanks very much L, take care.   L: Thanks! Bye.   [outro music plays]   R: Hey, friends. I hope you enjoyed this episode and interview today with L. D. Lewis and usually this is the part where I’d say hit us up on Patreon.com/wmbcast. Wait, I just did it. Well, you know what I mean.   Normally, I would say that. And that’s great. You can do all that if you want, but I’d really like if you, today, would go and get a subscription for a year or more to fiyahlitmag.com. The content is excellent, the people who put it together are excellent, and it’s one thing to say that everyone’s welcome at the table of SFF, but it’s another thing to actually support the people who need their voices lifted. So, please, go support fiyahlitmag.com, the link is in the show notes. And, you know, read some stories by some marginalized people. Specifically, in this case, Black writers. And check out these fantastic covers by Black artists. And, you know, really appreciate what FIYAH is doing in a time when so few are. So, again, thank you for listening today and go check out fiyahlitmag.com and support this fantastic magazine and keep it going in the future.   Alright and we’ll talk to you in two weeks. Take care, everyone.        

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of We Make Books - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!   This week, Kaelyn gets Rekka to go on (at length) about the process of laying out a book for print and digital, once a manuscript has reached its ultimate form.   We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor. Together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @bittybittyzap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 40: For That You Get the Print, the Digital, the Whole Damn Thing transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)    [0:00] R: Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. And I am Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore. K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And today we’ve got an interesting episode. Full disclosure: we debated whether or not we should do this one. We were a little worried that the subject material might be too dry— R: Yeah. K: But, that said, it’s, I think, an interesting part of publishing that’s frequently overlooked and that is actually assembling a book. And we don’t mean finish writing it, we mean, at some point, you’ve gotta put a book together. R: Right, and we don’t also mean physically gluing it to the binder, which is also fun. I’ve done that, too, but this is more the magical process that happens when you finish your copy edits final pass and the publisher says, “Okay, we’ll get you page proofs in a little while!” and what happens there. What’s going on in that moment, or those long moments if you’re just waiting. K: Yeah, if you wanna talk about one of the unsung heroes of the publishing world, it is certainly the designers who actually have to go through and make it so nobody realizes that they did any work on this. You don’t pick up a book and think about, “Hey, look at the nice order that the dedication and the table of contents and the acknowledgements and everything is in! Look at all the great work that was done with the typeface and setting and how all of this is really easy to read and I don’t even have to think about it.” And that’s the whole point. R: Yep. Really, the only part of the book you want to notice is the cover. The design of the interior, you definitely want to be perfect but completely unnoticeable. In a sense. K: Absolutely. R: It’s not disheartening for the designer to hear that. It’s literally the goal of the designer is to make the book an easy reading experience. And so if their work goes unnoticed and they get paid, so be it. K: Yeah, so it’s, like we said, we were worried that this might be a little dry. But as we got into it, we realized it’s really not. Actually, there’s a lot of really interesting steps that go into this and things that the average reader or potential author doesn’t know or think about. Anyway, as always, take a listen. We hope you enjoy and we’ll see you on the other side of the music. [intro music plays] K: Terrible. R: Yeah, I’ve been trying not to walk outside too often, lately. Which, you know, with nowhere to go, that works out really well. Except that my office is outside… but then I lost all my files so I didn’t even wanna go face my computer. So, again, stayed inside. K, sighing: It broke my heart. R: No, it broke mine, too. K: Are we recording already? R: Yeah, of course. K: Yeah, of course we are. Okay. [cheerfully] Hey, everyone! [R and K giggle] R: So I’m hoping that this conversation will be useful to more than just two groups of people. But the two groups of people that I think are going to perk up the most about this episode are the people who want to self-publish but have been wondering how to get their final document into book form, and then the people who already self-publish or are involved in the process and then want to know how other people are doing it, to see if they’re missing anything. Because when you do things by yourself, you tend to worry. K: Yeah, and so as we mentioned in the intro, today we’re talking about actually putting a book together. It’s—I think it seems like when you’ve written everything and you have it edited, proofread, copy-edited then you’re like, “Well, I’m basically done,” and there’s actually a lot more that you still have left to do. R: There’s a lot more after that. K: Rekka has, especially, been up to her elbows in this recently, doing some work with Annihilation Aria, released a week ago, at this point? R: Yeah, a week ago. K: Yeah, so it’s out now. You can go pick up a copy, it’s by Mike Underwood, it’s a fantastic book. But Rekka started doing some work for Parvus, stepped in and was doing the layout for this. And I was working very closely with her on it and that’s the first time I was ever directly exposed to how this works. [laughs] I was, maybe not horrified, but certainly a little frightened by the process. It is a lot of words, as it turns out. And characters— R: Turns out, over 100,000 words! In a novel! Who’da thunk? K: Yeah, books have words in them! So many words… So yeah! You’ve got a final version of it. Now you actually gotta make it a book. And there are ways that you can do this fairly easily, and ways that will take a lot more time. And obviously, the ones that take a lot more time, you’re coming out with a higher quality product, I guess, if you want to put it that way. So anyway, we just thought that this would be kind of an interesting thing to talk through of what happens when you’ve got a finalized manuscript. How you make that a book now. R: So, I will just clarify that I began working on Annihilation Aria, there was already a layout from Catspaw DTP and that’s who Parvus uses for most of their layouts and because I have some expertise in design, it is my day-time career path, I was able to handle any changes that needed to happen after the fact.  Normally, if someone does an interior layout, they might be using InDesign and then if you need changes, and you don’t have InDesign, you go back to them with all your changes and incur more costs! But I was able to handle the changes as we went through the manuscript, and that’s very fortunate. Not normal, I would say, for somebody who comes in to help with promotion, to also be working on layout.    K: Rekka is a master of many skills. R: You know, I used to be jealous of the people that say, like, “Oh yeah, growing up I always took everything apart to see how it worked and then put it back together,” and it worked better or whatever, and I was like, “I wish I could say that about myself!” And then I just realized, talking to you, I did that. I just always did it with files and processes. K: Yep! Hey, it counts. And we’re very grateful that you did. So, maybe first let’s talk about the elements of a book. Of what you need besides just a finalized manuscript. R: Well, you need to save that manuscript that has gone through all the tracked changes and stuff, you need to save a fresh copy and you need to make sure there are no comments or track changes active or anything like that in there. Because let me tell you, somehow that’ll end up in your layout and it’ll mess something up. It’s not supposed to, from both Microsoft Word and Adobe InDesign, it’s not supposed to, but it does. Somehow it just does things. So, to Kaelyn’s point,  you don’t just need your final document, you need a final, cleaned-up document, a separate one. K: A final, clean document. All notes, comments, changes, edits, everything removed. You save that in no less than 10 different locations. R, laughing: Pretty much! Having just gone through a little bit of data loss myself. No, you save that everywhere you can. And to the cloud. K: You put it on flash drives and mail them to different people so, you know, in case somebody comes into your house to steal copies of it or your dog eats it or something, you—no less than ten locations. Okay, so. R: Easily. K: You’ve got that. You are one hundred percent sure you have removed everything from the manuscript that is not supposed to be there. R: Mhm. K: Well, now what? Hopefully, you’ve registered the book and gotten yourself an ISBN because that is an important step one right there. R: The ISBN, actually, as long as the book isn’t due, like tomorrow, to the printer, the ISBN can kind of happen at any point. You can leave a placeholder for it. You just need to remember if you’ve left a placeholder for it, so you can go back and fix it before you send in the finals. So your back cover usually has the barcode, a UPC that ties into the ISBN, and usually the ISBN is also printed somewhere in the book, very often the copyright page. K: Yeah, so, you’ll notice if you pick up a book, or even just read a digital one, you’re gonna see pretty much the same things over and over again in the same order. We’re always going to start with the title page: such and such by such and such, that is frequently followed by a Copyrights page. This is the one with all of the good information about the author, who published the book, it will have the ISBN on there, it’ll have some threatening information about copyrights and reproduction and selling. If it’s Parvus, we always try to put a little joke on that page just to lighten the mood a bit.  From there, then, there’s usually a dedication. Most authors like to throw a dedication in there. And then, typically, you go into a Table of Contents or a Chapter List, depending on what you’re writing. R: For digital. K, confused: What do you mean? R: You don’t tend to see the Table of Contents in a print book, unless it’s non-fiction. K: Oh, okay. Yeah. The other thing, then, that you might find in some books is some information about what you’re about to read. Some books put a Glossary of Terms at the beginning rather than at the end, sometimes you might get sort of mini character introductions, or there might be a map. There might be some information about the world that this is set in. R: That you need going into it, though. K: Yeah, that they want you to have going into it. And, once you get through all of that, then you actually get into the fun part, the meat of the story, and typically, by the time you get to the end, then you’re gonna have an Acknowledgements section from the author. Then, before or after, there’s also usually an About the Author section. That tends to be the last thing in the book. And just, you know, we’re talking like a picture and one-page bio about the interesting stuff, how awesome the person who wrote the book is. R: And by one-page bio, we tend to mean half a page because usually the heading takes up a large margin at the top, and then that photo will be either above or inset into the text, so you end up with—Don’t worry, authors, you don’t have to write a full-page bio for yourself. It’s really more like 2-3 paragraphs, and shorter is just fine. [11:49] K: Yeah, and the only other thing that you might find at the very end of that book that is maybe a preview chapter for either the next book in that series or another book by that publisher that they think readers of this book might enjoy. Not always, but if it’s in there, that is usually the dead-last thing in there. R: Or if the glossary that we mentioned being at the beginning is a little bit extensive, that might go in the back. Especially if it contains spoilers. K: Exactly, yes. And so that is kind of most of what you’re gonna find in there. And, again, we’re talking fiction. Depending on what it is that you’re reading, there could be endnotes in there, there could be chapter notes, there could be additional information at the end as well. But that’s kind of a general sense of what you need to include in there. R: And, for the most part, that’s the order that they appear in. I have definitely seen variations on that. And I don’t know if in those cases it was given over to the author preference, or if it was just a house style that, say, the acknowledgements came first.  K: Exactly, yeah.So, how do you get all of this stuff? R: Hopefully! Hopefully it’s been getting gathered all along, but… K: And, like the book, you’ve gotta be the one to write most of it. Your bio, authors should always have a few different versions of their bio. You know, the 2-3 sentence one, the two paragraph, and the full-length bio. Just, those are important things to have for press-related things. Also, you write your own acknowledgements, you write your own dedication, you’re writing all of your own supplemental material. So, I don’t know if I’d call it the bad news, but the gist here is, yeah, you’ve finished this book. You still got a little bit more writing that you have to do here. R: And that’s something that I, as an author, tend to work on while my book is in the editor’s hands. I want to keep touching this book and working on it, but I’m not allowed to touch the manuscript anymore because I’ve handed it off to somebody. So I will do things like try to work on the acknowledgements, try to work on the glossary, which is a mistake. Both of those things would go a lot smoother if I would keep notes throughout the entire process. Like, “Hey! This person helped me out with this concept, I can thank them in the acknowledgements. I’ll add that now even though I don’t have to write the acknowledgements for four months.”  Same thing with the glossary. It’s a pain in the neck to go back through the text and try to find all the things—basically, everything that your spellchecker wants you to fix, that probably belongs in the glossary. And so that’s a pain in the neck to go through it manually, start to finish, on, you know, in the case of Salvage, on a 470 page book. It’d be a lot easier if I just went and added things to it as I added characters and topics and subjects and that sort of thing to the story and then I can just go in at the end and clean it up.  Like, “Oh, I changed this character’s name,” or “Oh, this didn’t end up in this book after all,” and stuff like that. It’d be a heck of a lot easier than writing it from scratch, from memory, or, like I said, with the pages open in front of me. K: Yeah, but what’s the fun without the challenge, right? R: Yeah. Yeah, no and like I said, if you’ve been working on it while the book was in revisions, then it’s not quite such a rush. When you’ve been working on it because you need to give the files over to the publisher in five days and you just remembered you didn’t do any of that, then it’s awful. K: So, let’s talk about those files. Because we mentioned at the top of the episode, you have a finalized manuscript. It is saved in no less than ten places, but you can’t—that Word document is not a book. That’s a manuscript, but it’s not a completed book at that point. You need to get a layout together, and this is kind of what we started talking about when we were figuring out this episode is, all of the stuff that goes into a layout, and doing a layout, that you don’t really think about. So we did kind of want to talk about the other elements of the book, but the thing that’s gonna be most time consuming here is the layout. R: Unless you go through a service that makes it not time-consuming. K: Yeah. So we’re gonna talk about a couple different ways you can do this. I’ll start with the first one, which is the way I do things when I have to come up with a layout real quick, be it for an advanced copy or a chapter book or something, Draft 2 Digital has a really great service where you can upload a Word document, your manuscript, and they will spit out a pretty decently impressive looking layout. R: Yeah. K: And they’ve got a few different formats and styles. They’ll even let you do some chapter—not chapter art, but flourishes and some little drop caps in the start of the chapters. And it looks great. They have a really cool program that will do this for you. And I’ve absolutely used it for manuscripts that we just needed together for a quick press run or an advanced copy or something. It’s completely free, it’s a really, really great tool. That said, it is not the same as having a professional layout done by someone who knows how to do these things. Back when books were printed with an actual press, it was a typographer’s job to sit there and actually put all of the individual little letters and spacing in there, and they had to do this backwards and upside down, pretty much.  That is, I think, and Rekka would you agree? Maybe one of the only trades from publishing that is sort of carried over? I mean, I would go so far as to call it a trade. It’s still a really specialized thing that you need somebody who knows how to do. I think I would say that might be the one of the only holdovers from the days of actual printing press runs. R: Well, you still have somebody operating a printing press. And that is definitely a trade still. Even though we’ve got digital presses and everything is print-on-demand and it feels like a human never touches it, that’s not necessarily true. It’s just that it doesn’t take as many people to make as many books as we do anymore. So, I don’t want to disparage the people who are maintaining these machines that we rely on for everything that we do. K: We appreciate and love those people and want them to continue doing their very important work. R: Absolutely. There are people on a line making paper for us. There are people—then there are people laying out the book and making sure the letters are in the right place and all that kind of stuff. The author has, hopefully, made sure that the letters are in the right order. It’s just our job that they look right and read well. One of the things that, you know, it’s not a shame, but the better that a layout person does their job, the less you notice that they were there at all. K: Exactly. R: Reading through a book and not noticing how the letters are spaced or anything like that, and getting to the end of that book and thinking about the story that you read. That means that a layout person did their job really, really well. So, in the Draft 2 Digitals and that sort of those things, those are not touched by a human being. They’re fed into a service and that service is very well designed to make some important choices for you. Like, you don’t have full-range of options in Draft 2 Digital’s layout utility that you do in InDesign, because a lot of choices are, to a designer, obviously not correct to make. But might not be obvious to someone going in and laying out their first book. Like we do not use comic sans for body copy—  K: Yeah, to be— [20:07] R: —you know? But if you give somebody the option to do that, invariably somebody will.  K: To be clear, the thing you’re getting if you use Draft 2 Digital’s service, that’s it. What they give you, it’s a PDF or— R: An ebook. K: —an ebook file, you’re going for here and then that’s it. R: Yeah, you can’t make any adjustments. I don’t know if that’s a hundred percent true. You might be able to go in and fiddle just a little bit with the settings to see if something improves something else— K: Yeah, you can fiddle with the settings, but you can’t go in and change certain areas where you’re like, “Oh, I don’t like the way this looks.” The only way, then, that you could do that is if you drop it into InDesign and then you’re just kind of starting the process again. R: Yeah, you’d be starting from scratch at that point because the files that Draft 2 Digital give you are not going to be editable in any way that’s going to be useful to a designer. You know, you couldn’t just take that as your first draft and hand it over to the designer like, “Here, I got you started. Now will you clean it up?” Like, there’s no way. You can’t do Step 1: Draft 2 Digital, Step 2: InDesign. You might as well start in InDesign. I will also mention that Smashwords also does the same service as Draft 2 Digital and I believe Reedsy, last I checked, they did not have the print up and running but I imagine if Draft 2 Digital figured it out then Reedsy did, too. K: So let’s talk about InDesign. Rekka, there’s probably some people listening to this that have no idea what InDesign is or why it’s such a scary program. R: It’s not scary, it’s just— K: It’s scary. And I’m scared.  R:  It’s just overwhelming if you don’t know what you’re doing, all the options are too many options.  K: It’s terrifying. R: Well, so… InDesign is a multi-page layout program that is published by Adobe, who makes Photoshop and PremierePro. A lot of very, you know, trade… standard for both film and music and photography and design. K: Yeah. Everything that you might publish. Adobe has bought pretty much every software company that ever touched on any part of my design career. I don’t think they ever bought Quark, but they certainly replaced it. At least in my portfolio. So InDesign the program is multi-page layout, which means that if you need a brochure, if you need a book, if you need a pamphlet—you know, you can even do stationery— K: Oh! Wanted Posters! R, amused: Or wanted posters, yes. You can also do single-page layouts. The multi option is a choice. So a lot of PDFs out there in the world began their life as an InDesign file. The more complex and polished the design, chances are the more likely it started as a multi-page layout in InDesign or, like I said, Quark.  I don’t know how best to explain what you’re looking at in InDesign. You’re seeing pages, but you’re seeing them with those invisible margins drawn in. You’re seeing boxes around the text that contain it. K: I’ll describe it, as somebody who does not have a design background. R: Yes, because I shared my screen with Kaelyn once making some integral corrections— K, outraged: Multiple! Multiple times! Multiple times. R, laughing: And Kaelyn did not like the experience. K: It is—and I will say this again, as somebody who does not have a design background—it is overwhelming to look at. R: It’s a little bit like a NASA control room, but for pages. K: The way I can best describe it is: if you’ve ever seen an architectural drawing of a building. You can look at it and see that, “Ah, yes! This is what the house is going to look like,” except it’s covered in other lines and notes and arrows and all of these things that don’t mean anything to you, but you can tell they mean something to the architect. This is kind of like an architectural drawing page of this book. This is what—all of the invisible stuff that you don’t see in the final page, is visible on these pages. You’re gonna see all the margins, all the markers. You’ll see the pilcrows. You, depending on what you want to make visible, you can actually see dots or some sort of indicator in there that’s showing you the spacing between words and characters. You’re seeing all of the stuff that the computer knows to acknowledge how this is supposed to look. And it’s a lot. To pair with tomorrow's episode of We Make Books, here's a look at a page layout in InDesign. @kindofKaelyn gets @bittybittyzap to dig in (like a tick) and expound on the designer's process when it comes to turning a Word doc into a multipage layout. pic.twitter.com/He2bsh5bM2 — We Make Books podcast (@wmbcast) July 27, 2020  R: Just shy of the zeroes and ones, yeah. K: There is. There’s a lot that the computer is doing to get the page to look the way that you’re saying it should look. So that, as a non-designer, that is the best way I can describe what you’d be looking at there. And we can, we can post some screenshots maybe of what these pages look like. Just so, you know, if you’ve never seen one you can kind of get an idea of what you’re looking at there. Okay! So, Rekka, here is a finalized manuscript. R: Yeah. [pause] K: Please make it a— R: Would you like me to make it a book for you, Kaelyn? K: I would like you to make it a book. R: So, as I said, this is a multi-page layout. If you open any book on your shelf and you look at a couple of different pages throughout, like the start of a chapter or the meat of a chapter, the front matter or back matter, you’re going to notice that some things change and some things stay the same across multiple pages. K: Yeah, and— R: So, for each one of those, you need a page template.  K: Yes, and before you’ve really dived in, hopefully you’ve had a conversation with the author or the editor and made some decisions about some things. R: Right, so you need the trim size. Like, the most critical thing is how big is this book going to be when you measure the outside of it with a ruler?  K: Yep. Let’s start there. How big is the book? The first most important thing you gotta figure out. R: Yeah. Yeah. Because that’s gonna tell you, by percentages, how big the margins should be. The inner margin that goes into the fold is going to be bigger than the outer margin. The top and bottom margins have to account for the running header and the page numbers, and where do you want those? Does the publisher have a house style where everything tends to be in the same place for that publisher? Does the publisher have a selection of fonts that they prefer to use, and they might have a selection of fonts for sci-fi versus fantasy. K: And that’s exactly what I was gonna say. So, other things that I’m sure you’d wanna know: what is the format of the beginning of each chapter supposed to look like? Is it just a chapter number, does it have a name? Does that get a different font than the rest of the text? How are the chapters or pages laid out? Does the text start half-way down or do we stick everything as close to the top as possible? Is there chapter art for each chapter? What about drop caps? What about fonts? So there’s a lot of things that the designer needs to know up front, before diving into all of this stuff. R: Yeah, and those decisions can get set up, to a degree, before the manuscript is even done. So you can bring a designer in and, if you’ve worked with them before, then you can say, “We’ll be using this house style, similar to this title that we did, but maybe this font is the title font, as opposed to the one that you used for that book.” K: Yeah.  R: So, for example, Parvus’s series, The Union Earth Privateers, there’s three books in that series now and they all use the same, or similar font, and that’s consistent within that series. Whereas, Flotsam and Salvage, as part of the Peridot Shift trilogy, are still technically sci-fi but use a very different font, different fonts inside, shaded a little bit more like a fantasy book, in terms of some of the details because it’s a genre-crossing story. K: And I think that’s something very overlooked, frequently. A lot of decision actually goes into picking the font because the font is kind of, it’s one of those tricky things that us publishers do. The font is reinforcing to you what kind of a story you’re reading. R: Yeah. K: Without you even noticing it. If you’re reading a high epic fantasy, you’re not going to be reading a font that looks like it’s been generated by a computer and you’re reading it off a screen. There’s gonna be something in there that’s a little twist, a little element of the fantastic so that maybe it looks a little bit more like something you’d read on a scroll. R: Yeah, yeah. K: And these are the decisions that are being made behind the scenes to help you really get engaged and involved in the book. And we do this without you even noticing, most of the time. R: So sometimes you can just pick up the font from the titling. You know, if you have the font that was used in the title layout on the front cover, which sometimes is done by the illustrator, sometimes it’s done separately from the illustrator as, you know, a titling designer. If you have that font, then you can pick that up or, some variation from that font family, without all the fancy styling on the cover, and just use that to keep reinforcing the style throughout. It’s not ironic at all that the font that we used for Flotsam and Salvage and then is used for the chapter headings on the inside is called Charcuterie. I mean, it’s just appropriate and it also looks kind of, you know, that pirate fantasy kind of look. It’s heavily modified for the front cover, but on the inside it’s used as it came out of the package, as you would. K: Yup.   [30:43] (from this point on, the transcript is by Rekka. Don't blame Sara for my mistakes!)   Rekka (00:30:43):So, um, yeah, absolutely. What you said. It's like the font choices, um, constantly remind the reader as they go through the book, what they're doing. Body copy—and when I say body copy, I'm talking about the running text—typically is going to follow some basic, uh, legibility rules. And so that font is less likely to change for the publisher than, um, than the other fonts that are more, uh, you know, highlights, uh, throughout the book or used for emphasis. The body text itself needs to be legible. It needs to be clear. It needs to, you know, adhere to standards. So that one is far less likely to change. Just like you wouldn't print black text on a dark purple paper. You know, we, we have cream color paper as a standard. We have certain fonts that work more as a standard, um, things like Garamond things like Georgia, you know, um, these are texts that you will see, you know, you can pretty much learn to identify them.   Rekka (00:31:48):So when you are creating a layout in InDesign, you are picking fonts because those fonts are selected and permanent. When it's printed on paper, that font doesn't change sizes. That font can't be enlarged. It can't be, you know, reduced somebody can't increase the spacing. So you've really got to come up to like the best universally legible version you can. For that reason, a lot of people, you know, like my parents who are in their seventies, they are reading on their, their e-readers, Kindles in their case because they can change the font size. Because they could even pick a different font if they wanted, um, from the ebook file. And so when you are creating your layout, pretty much the font you choose in InDesign, if you're the one choosing it, um, assume that going forward. Cause I'd have to keep saying it at the end of every statement.   Rekka (00:32:46):Um, those fonts are not necessarily the ones that are going to end up in the e-reader because the readers have their own preloaded set of fonts. And if you don't use one, they will pick what they judge to be the next closest font for you. So if you pick a serif font, but you use, you know, Garamond, but Garamond is a licensed, you know, proprietary font under the font foundry that created it and they own the rights to it. And if you don't purchase the rights to distribute it, you cannot package it in with your file. So you're going to end up with something that's a serif font that is similar. Um, if you go into your settings on an e-reader, you can see the fonts that are prepackaged in there. Cause you get to choose which one you want to use. And it's like maybe 15 at the most. So the fonts that you choose in your layout will go into the book, but unless you choose to, um, license your font so that you can distribute it, which is a whole other price point, um, you're not going to be controlling the fonts to that level in the ebook file that will get generated at the end here.   Kaelyn (00:33:57):Gotcha. So, okay. Rekka, we've picked the font. We've come up with all of the, um, you know, how the beginning of the chapters are going to look, we've decided on how to handle drop cap. Uh, what are, what are you going to do now? What's the first thing you start digging into when you run through this.   Rekka (00:34:15):Well, I'm going to block out the pages that I know we're going to need. So all the things we listed, um, and we, we forgot to mention like a praise page. So if there are industry blurbs, you know, that might be page one in this document. And um, if we know we've got a lot of them, it might be page two to maybe page three. You know, like if you're, you know, Gideon the Ninth got a lot of industry blurbs, for example.   Kaelyn (00:34:41):Hey that's great. If you've got it, flaunt it.   Rekka (00:34:42):Exactly. Um, so the idea of that is if someone picks us up in a bookstore, they are still deciding whether or not they want to buy it. You're hoping that, you know, you got him past the cover, you got him past the book description on the back, they've opened it and now you see like," Oh, well, you know, Terry Brooks loved this, so, okay, I'm going to read this or I'll at least keep paging it. And maybe I'll read the chapter in the bookstore." You have, you know, the title page, you might have another one we didn't mention was also-buys, uh, lists for the author or even sometimes the publisher I have seen, um, put those in a book, um, copyright, all that stuff. Those are all going to come to the designer as a separate word document. So you're going to start making space for it.   Rekka (00:35:25):If the publisher has already provided some of it, then you lay it in. If you know it's coming, then you leave a spot for it. Because as you do things, um, you want to make sure that you are accounting for, what's going to start on like the right side of a page. What can go on the left side. On the right usually is where the titles fall. The dedication, the first chapter will start on the right. Um, the left side, you know, things like the copyright can live there, things that flow over from the page before, like those long praise lists we were talking about, or even long also-by-authors. Although at that point you probably want to pare it down to the most relevant. Um, so what's gonna fall on the right or left side of the page. You create a text box for that.   Rekka (00:36:09):And, um, then you might need to insert a blank page and then start another text box for another right page. And then, um, if you set up your file properly, things will flow. And um, so if you bring in something that's, overlong, it will automatically add pages for you to make room for that, so none of it's hidden, but, um, as we'll get into later, that's one of the pitfalls that you have to deal with as well.   Kaelyn (00:36:34):So, so one of the, so pretty much what you're doing right off the bat is you're blocking out, apart from the manuscript, the additional things that we talked about at the beginning of episode that are going to have to go into this book and you're literally laying it out, you're trying to go like, okay, there's going to be this. And that's going to take up two pages. Then I'm going to need four pages for this, then a page for that. And you're creating this file with then all of these, can I call them checkpoints? Does that make sense?   Rekka (00:37:05):It's a little bit, it's maybe just like a, to do list or, you know, it's a table of contents. It's the living table of contents, but without the table, it is the contents. Um, like I said, they're each going to be coming in as a separate word file and you'll be treating them as separate, uh, story blocks in InDesign so that, um, when one ends, it gets to a stop and then you have another one that begins on the next page as a separate story. So that, like I said, if something runs over, it pushes everything, but it doesn't flow into the next text block with like, you know, your dedication will accidentally end up on the same page as chapter one.   Kaelyn (00:37:43):Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense.   Rekka (00:37:45):There, I think there are ways to style like your chapter headings so that they appear correctly. So like if I took, if you gave me one solid word document and inside, it said chapter one, that, um, the, you know, as a chapter one and then the text and there's a chapter two that I could import that. And then if those chapters are marked as headings, you know, separate from the body text that they would be spaced properly with the text around them. And what this does is in the reflowable, it guarantees that like accidentally you won't lose the last paragraph of a chapter. If something you do with a spacing ends up pushing it.   Kaelyn (00:38:27):Right. Okay.   Rekka (00:38:27):But what it ends up being a mess in terms of, um, dealing with where the chapters headings are and whether they're space properly and all that kind of stuff. So what CatsPaw does, and what I've started to do is create a separate story for each chapter, which does mean there's a little bit more handling when it comes in from the word document. I can't just throw the word document in there and have it go "zzzzhzhhhhzhzhzhzh" all the way down and look perfect.   Kaelyn (00:38:54):That's the noise it makes.   Rekka (00:38:55):That is not the noise it makes, uh, that is the sound of disappointment when it doesn't work as intended, hopefully the styles are set up in a way that makes sense. So what you do is you go in and you delete the word styles, and then it says, Hey, uh, the, you know, the styles in use, do you want to replace the instances of that style with another style? And then you can apply your own style without having to go in and look for every chapter one chapter two, chapter three, you know, that kind of thing.   Kaelyn (00:39:22):Yeah. So Rekka, without getting too technical with all of this...   Rekka (00:39:29):Folks, that's her way of saying "you have four pages of notes and they frighten me."   Kaelyn (00:39:32):She does have a lot of notes for this one. Um, but without getting too technical about this, you've done the initial import, you know, you've corrected the, you know, real quick things you've, you know, checked the headings, made the stories for the chapters. And, uh, this is absolutely a leading question because I got to experience some of this firsthand recently, your next step, you're going to go through the manuscript and start looking for things that, for lack of a better term, look a weird.   Rekka (00:40:05):Yeah. So once everything's laid in, then hopefully the styles that you set up for paragraphs and such are, um, pretty low maintenance in that you've already decided how many words per paragraph are allowed to be hyphenated.   Kaelyn (00:40:23):And real quick, just to be clear what you mean by that. If a word is too long and is hanging off the end of the line, you can allow the text to hyphenate, put a hyphen there and then continue to word on the next line.   Rekka (00:40:35):Right. Like I said before, what you want the reader to do is not notice that they're reading. And so part of that job falls to the author to make the story engaging the other part, falls to the layout person. And typographer to make sure that there's nothing getting in the way of an easy reading experience. Sometimes that word "frustrating" would make that line either super compressed, if it fit all the words on that line, or super spaced out, if it decided to move it down. So by allowing hyphenation in your settings, you tell the computer, sometimes it's going to be necessary, please do this, but you can also tell it "if the word is capitalized. You know, if the first letter of that word is capitalized, do not hyphenate," because sometimes as a proper name and in fantasy and science fiction, you really don't want those words to get any more confusing than you've already made them you creative, creative, wonderful people. So, um, you maybe don't want to hyphenate those words at all. Uh, you can also say "don't hyphenate in the first line or don't hyphenate to the last line." There's little settings like this, and then there's sliders to say "more hyphenation for better spacing" or "I'd rather sacrifice some of the spacing for less hyphens." Cause it can be really silly to look at a paragraph and the first four lines end with a hyphen because you're using sciency words and they're really long.   Kaelyn (00:41:54):Yeah. And so then, uh, one of the other things that you're gonna look for is weird spacing. Um, as you mentioned, text here is typically justified. Um, this is why sometimes you'll see in books that there's not uniform spacing between words and what's happening there is the computer is making adjustments so that everything is kind of a box, just like these neat lines down the side.   Rekka (00:42:18):It will go for the spaces between words first, before adjusting the tracking between the letters themselves.   Kaelyn (00:42:25):So yeah, there's two ways to mess up the spacing here. You can mess with the spacing — You're wondering why I said this was so incredibly overwhelming, and this is why you can mess with the spacing in the words. So you could also mess with the spacing in between the letters.   Rekka (00:42:41):You know, if you were doing a poster, you would be really, really fine tuning every letter on there when you're doing a full book layout, um, unless this is a book about idealism, you know, or this is going to be a coffee table book, generally, you're not getting too close into the kerning, except in cases where like say you have a drop cap at the beginning of a chapter where the first letter is like three lines high. And that first letter is an "A," so you have this letter that leans away from the text at the top, but is running into the text on that third line that it's, that it's inset to. And so you might want to adjust how those letters fit together. That's where the reader is going to go. "Woah, that looks weird," as opposed to they're already sucked into the narrative and you know, they might completely overlook it.   Kaelyn (00:43:32):And I can actually give an example that a wreck and I came up against that was really strange when we were working on Aria. Um, because it's a space opera. We had some names that started with a Q, but were not followed by a U, which is obviously very unusual in English, but not in this galaxy. And the Q that was built into the font was this large ornate sort of letter, capital letter ,with this flowing line. And we were looking at this going, well, why is it doing this? And we realized that there was a different setting built into the font for if you were doing Qu versus just a single capital Q.   New Speaker (00:44:11):Right. And that's called a ligature, which is a standard, um, aesthetic manipulation of the way letters fit together so that they are more attractive, and, and this is like, you know, typographers will really have fun with these. So in the case of the character's name, it was "Qe" and there was no ligature for that. But for the word "Queen," you have the stroke coming out of the Q and it extended, I think, past the u, um, it was very, very, pretty. It was very Royal.   Kaelyn (00:44:46):It was really, it was gorgeous. It was almost the length of the word.   Rekka (00:44:50):But we were looking at it and going, why, why is this? And then finally we figured it out. Um, I think you leave it because you're like, well, it's a queen. Yeah. She can have the long stroke.   Kaelyn (00:45:00):We found a way to sort of minimize it because the way they had it in there, it was very distracting in the text.   Rekka (00:45:06):They call them alternatives. So when you highlight a letter in InDesign, you get an option to switch that letter form to one of his alternatives, but yeah. Um, ligatures, are generally something you want, um, because of the way like F will go into L or F will go into I, um, you know, they're very, very common. Um, and you probably don't even realize you're looking at them. Uh, if you see two letters that basically connect somehow or, um, the letter forms overlap into the horizontal space of each other, it's probably a ligature and they're, they're good. They're a good thing. But in some cases you may want to manually override them.   Kaelyn (00:45:45):All of this is to say that then this becomes a really time consuming process of just needing to read through the manuscript and to make sure that it looks okay. We're not fussing with words at this point, we're fussing with layout and with presentation.   Rekka (00:46:00):So I would argue that you're not necessarily reading through the manuscript. Um, but you are scanning, you know, across every page to, to catch these kinds of things.   Kaelyn (00:46:11):And someone like Rekka, whose eye is trained to look for this stuff. Um, you know, there are like someone like me, there's stuff that I caught on there that I went, "ah, this is weird." Or like I would find, um, there's a thing that can happen called a river where the spacing in between letters, stacks up line on top of line. And it looks like a river, essentially.   New Speaker (00:46:33):You could trace a line, you know, with a pen through multiple lines in a paragraph. And that's, you know, there's rivers, uh, and the fully justified text kind of creates quite a few of them too, unfortunately. Um, but again, you can kind of control that by setting up your styles really well. Um, the Draft 2 Digital's, as well as InDesign's, um, algorithm that lays out the text for you tries to control that, like it knows to try and avoid it. Can't avoid it everywhere. Cause again, especially with science fiction books, sometimes the words are just really long and you're kind of stuck with them, but you also, you know, you're going to look out for widows, which are single words at the end of a paragraph. In something as long as a, as a novel, they're going to be some of them, you just can't avoid it.   Kaelyn (00:47:18):It's just, it's going happen. Yeah, there's no way around that.   Rekka (00:47:19):But you can try to minimize them. Um, other things that just, you know, again, the hyphenation, you're just, some normal words become less normal when they're split across two lines. You know, your brain is going to try and guess what the rest of the word is as you're reading. And so you don't want anything that your brain would go immediately to something else.   Kaelyn (00:47:39):Uh, one of the other things, um, if there's a scene break, you're signified us by a break in the text. If that break comes at the end of a page and then starts at the other, it's not going to be clear to the reader that there's supposed to be a break in there.   Rekka (00:47:52):Yeah. So generally you want some kind of ornament um in there for that break. Um, I actually was reading on a Kindle last night and twice in a row inside the same chapter, I did not realize I was supposed to be dealing with a scene break because it came at the end of the way my Kindle had flipped the pages. So I was like, "wow, I sure would've put an ornament in here. Uh, just to signify that the scene breaks." You know, sometimes it's three asterisks. Sometimes it's a line. Sometimes it's a little illustration. The scene breaks, again, are communicating something to the reader. So if it's not being communicated, it needs to be adjusted. Um, and then you've also got, uh, orphans which are single lines at the end, or start a page. You, you kind of want to keep your paragraphs together., Again in a 400 page novel, you're not going to be able to control every single one of them, but you do what you can. And sometimes you end up doing what you can by going back three paragraphs to find a really long, chunky paragraph that could probably, uh, you know, be adjusted to either push or pull that, um, that line upward or back so that you can control that.   Kaelyn (00:49:00):So, yeah, Rekka... Someone like Rekka is, you know, scanning these, looking through everything and knows exactly what to be looking for. Um, it's a very time consuming manual process, but if, again, you're a designer like Rekka, this is just, you know, you've got like a third eye that is just going, "yes, no, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, widow, orphan, other upsetting family status."   Rekka (00:49:27):Exactly. Exactly.   Kaelyn (00:49:29):So that is kind of, I would say is that is that sort of, once you go through and finalize that, is there anything else assuming there are no changes being made, is that sort of the end of your involvement at that point?   Rekka (00:49:46):So that is for the print book. Now for the ebook, there are a couple of different ways to do it again, drafted digital we'll happily take your word file and make an ebook from it. Um, as will SmashWords, as will Reedsy. Um, there's a program called Vellum. Yep. And that is Mac only, unfortunately I a hundred percent think is a worthwhile, uh, program to have, because the option that remains from that is, uh, to take your, either your word document or your InDesign document and export it to an epub. And then what you need to do is manually edit that epub to make sure that it's clean, because sometimes styles come in from other programs that are, uh, bloated for what you want an ebook to be. You want to keep the size down. You want to not confuse the e-reader with too many, you know, instructions for how to handle a paragraph, et cetera. So, um, InDesign lets you, uh, create rules for your various styles in how it exports them to epub, which is a good thing. Um, however, I have found that the epub that's, uh, exported still requires an awful lot of work. So if your Word document is kept up to date with the same changes that go into the layout after the page proofs are made, I definitely recommend taking that Word document and feeding it through, uh, either Vellum. I know um, Draft 2 Digital has been working on their epub, you know, converter so that, um, it's probably getting closer and closer to perfect. Um, but right now my experiences with Vellum and it's just night and day between having to edit an epub because InDesign still, you know, separated out your files weird or whatever, um, to just loading it into vellum and having it recognize this, you know, the scene breaks and the chapter breaks and all this kinds of stuff. And again, Draft 2 Digital, Reedsy, Smashwords, Vellum: they're, um, ebook creation tools, know what fonts are available in e-readers and know how those styles will be rendered. So when you pick a style in any one of those, you can be fairly certain that it's going to look the same across multiple e-readers, which with InDesign, you kind of have to manage on your own. And that's not a lot of fun. And by the time you're done with this layout, you kind of want to be able to like, just output that ebook and just go.   Rekka (00:52:09):Um, I definitely recommend if you can do the ebook last, because every time you create a new format of this book, now you've got to keep all the changes straight between every different format or you have to re-output the ebook again from your final_final_final_dot [[grumpy noises]] final, you know.indd file. So, um, that would be my recommendation. Uh, yeah, the, the process of maintaining multiple files across different versions and stuff like that is, it's not great.   Rekka (00:52:43):You want to minimize it so that you can have all the files open on your computer, on your, you know, if you're like me, you have two monitors and you can have them side by side and make every change, uh, one at a time, side by side so that, you know, it's done. So from there you have, you know, you just have your final checks and, and once you have all the pages laid out in InDesign, you'd have a final page count, which means that you can finally go get the template for your cover. Because you can't make your cover final until you know the spine width, which you don't know until you have your page count. So all these things kind of like wait until the end, so you're, while you're laying things out, if you don't have all those pages on the inside that we talked about in the front and end matter, you're bugging the publisher for those. "Uh, can I get that? Can I get that?" If you have a direct access to the author, you might be reaching out to them, you know, "just to confirm, I want to make sure I have everything." Because, um, that page count means that you can finish your cover. And then, um, you output that according to the, you know, guidelines of whoever will be doing the printing, whether it's, you know, uh, press printing or a POD digital, you match their specifications and you upload the file, you preview everything a hundred times. You know, you'll proof it one more time from the, um, they'll output a PDF and send it to you. And you just make sure that, you know, no pages are missing or whatever that you know could go wrong. That it's not a truncated file. Like you uploaded it and it didn't only partially upload or, or whatever. Cause most of the system is pretty automated. You don't have people who—you cannot trust, let's say, that there's someone on the printer team who is going to be going over your page with as much care as you would. So always take that care to go over everything. Just like I, you know, went through the entire layout to make sure the words were falling on the right place. You want to make sure that you go through the entire proofing process with that same eye. If you've ever seen the movie Elf there's, um, there's a scene where the president of the company marches him with a briefcase and he pulls out a page proof. You don't get page proofs like that anymore, but you do get PDFs. And it sh... And he points at the bottom of this blank page to where the publisher had signed off on a page that did not output. And so kids who read this book, didn't get the ending of the book, right?   Kaelyn (00:55:01):No one knows what happened to the puppy and the pigeon.   Rekka (00:55:04):So the printer will make you sign, you know, essentially digitally sign this proof to say, "I approve of this, go ahead with printing." So if something happens that was shown in the proof and you didn't flag it and fix it or flag it and have them fix it, it's on you. So there's no, there's no amount of hurry that is worth having to swallow the cost or swallow the embarrassment when your readers get, you know, books with mistakes in them. So I mean, through the entire process, as laborious as it sounds, and as much as it sounds like you might want to get through it and be done with it, like, the care you put into it makes a better product.   Kaelyn (00:55:45):Agreed. So, um, on that note, uh, the big takeaway here is attention to detail is always important, but never so much.   Rekka (00:55:55):And pay someone else to do it if you can.   Kaelyn (00:55:56):But never so much as when you're doing your layout. You know, as I said, this was just meant to sort of be a little bit of a kind of walkthrough of what happens to get a book taken from a manuscript to actually be formatted as a book. As, as you can see, it's, it's a process and there are different levels of how much detail and attention you can pay to it. And there- one is not necessarily better or right or wrong. Sometimes it's a matter of money and cost. Sometimes it's a matter of time. It's- at the end of the day. You just want to make sure that you've written a good book that can be easily read. And when I say easily read, I mean, as Rekka has said multiple times through this, people reading, it should not be conscious of the fact that they're reading. They should not have to make an effort to read the book.   Rekka (00:56:50):They shouldn't have to concentrate just to see the page, you know, or to get through the page. And to your point about, you know, sometimes budget is a concern. I mean, obviously Draft 2 Digital's is free. Um, when you upload the files, I don't even think you have to publish or distribute to them. You can just download the file that it generates. Um, because they know that people will see the value in their service and come back and maybe eventually will distribute through them because every time you hit their page, they're showing you like, you can get this into libraries, you can get this into, you know, various distribution channels that you might not be able to get into on your own. So, you know, that's why their stuff is free. It's not free, cause it's not valuable. They work very hard on it. And it shows.   Rekka (00:57:29):If you want a little bit more hands on than that, but you can't afford the page by page line, by line tracking. You know, there are designers who will probably be agreeable to do slightly less of the, you know, nitty gritty work, get it laid out for you. And do you know what they know works well, which is, you know, setting up those styles so that there's a minimal amount of, you know, all the things that we've warned against. And so you might be able to get somebody who, you know, will charge you less because they'll do less of the process, but a little bit more than you might get from one of the free things. And, you know, that's just something to experiment with and see how it works out and know that, you know, like if you say, "Oh, no, I really want to, um, you know, fiddle with this more," that, um, you need to probably get them to agree, to give you the InDesign file and then maybe, maybe you start paying for Adobe Creative Cloud and get a copy of InDesign yourself and you learn how to fiddle with these things. But it's, it's not all or nothing. It's not hours and hours and hours of paid labor at, you know, a designer's rate necessarily, but you do get what you pay for. Yeah. So yeah, there are multiple options on more of a sliding scale than, you know, just "free" or "all of the money."   Kaelyn (00:58:49):That's, that's our episode about books and layouts and putting them together and everything. Um, you know, I know it was, there was a little technical in some areas.   Rekka (00:58:58):I could go on for a few more hours.   Kaelyn (00:59:00):Yes, yes. Um, you know, hopefully that was informative, kind of gave you a little bit of an idea of what's going on in the background here. And, um, you know, as always, if you have any questions or, you know, anything that you were looking for more information on or wondering about, uh, please feel free to contact us. We like when people ask us questions and contact us.   Rekka (00:59:22):Yep. You can reach us on Instagram and Twitter @WMBcast. You can find us at WMBcast.com for all our old episodes. And if you find our information valuable enough to assign a dollar number to a, you can find us at patreon.com/wmbcast, and we'd super appreciate your support. But of course we know that's not always possible. So the another way to support us, uh, free of cost to you is to recommend our podcast to a friend who might be interested in some of the discussions you've heard. You can tell them to subscribe if you think everything's great, or if there's something specific, you can just send them a specific episode. Um, and of course the pinnacle of free support for this podcast will be to go leave a rating and review at Apple podcasts, even though we are available on all the podcast apps, that is the place where the reviews really seem to do the most to boost our visibility. So you can do that and help other people find us.   Kaelyn (01:00:20):Yeah. That's certainly the algorithm that we need to feed the most of all of them. Well, thanks again, everyone for listening and we'll see you in two weeks.   Rekka (01:00:28):Take care, everyone.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!   This week we were lucky enough to sit down with Michael R. Underwood, author the upcoming novel "Annihilation Aria" from Parvus Press.  Full disclosure: Kaelyn was Mike's editor on the book and so we got have an extra in-depth and behind the scenes discussion about the craft of writing and how characters, plots, and worlds can change and adapt as the story is written.  Mike was a fountain of information and knowledge and we both left the conversation with some amazing insight into the process behind creating a book with such rich world building and dynamic characters.  We had a great time talking with Mike and hope that you enjoy the conversation as much as we did.   We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and if you've read Annihilation Aria, let us know what you think!   You can (and should) check out Mike on social media at:   Twitter: @MikeRUnderwood Website: www.michaelrunderwood.com   Annhiliation Aria is available everywhere awesome books are sold on July 21, 2020!   www.books2read.com/annihilation-aria   We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 39: Annihilation Aria with Michael R. Underwood transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.   K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.    R: And today, we have to make another full disclosure-confession. We have another Parvus author on today. You recently heard us talk to Scott Warren of the Union Earth Privateers book—book series, I should say. And today we have another author of another amazing Parvus book, Michael R. Underwood of Annihilation Aria fame, or about to be fame. I hope it’s fame because this book deserves it.   K: Yeah, Annihilation Aria’s coming out a week from when this will be released, so this is July 14th, coming out July 21st. It’s a fantastic book, space opera. When I first got the manuscript and was kind of giving a it a rundown to my publisher and the other people on my team, I described it as the gender-swapped Mummy in space.   R: Yeah. With magic. Well, I guess The Mummy does have magic, too.   K: Yeah, yeah but with giant space turtles, and therefore better.   R: Yeah, yes.   K: So Mike was kind enough to take the time and sit and talk with us about the evolution of story writing and character development. This book had been something that he was working on for years. It, well, the core parts of it didn’t change too much. The book certainly underwent a lot of evolution over the years. And MIke is so smart, so talented, has a lot of really great insight and advice to offer when it comes to, you know, being about to take a look back at your own work and figuring out how it needs to change in order to serve the story. So, we had a great time talking with Mike. Hopefully you have a great time listening to him, and you should, you still have time right now to pre-order Annihilation Aria, book one of The Space Operas. Absolutely check it out. Not only because I’m the one that edited it, but because it is an excellent book.   R: I totally agree. I got the chance to read it when I was recovering in the hospital and it was a delight. It was absolutely everything that Kaelyn and Mike promised it would be.    K: So, anyway, take a listen and we hope you enjoy!   [intro music plays]    R: Of course we just used up all our small talk, we don’t recall any of it. So, I guess we’re gonna have to go straight into it.   K: Dive right into talking to Mike Underwood today!   M: Hi! I’m sorry! This is the thing about being on a podcast that I’ve listened to. I have to actively keep my brain dial on the Talk to These People mode, instead of the Listen to These People mode.   R: I mean we can just talk about you, but it seems a little rude considering you’re in the recording with us.   K: Especially because none of us are in the same space right now. Usually Rekka and I are at least sitting across from each other.   R: I have the blanket that Kaelyn usually has today.   K: Ahh, my blanket! I miss that blanket. It sheds all over me, but it’s worth it.   R: Yeah, well, stuff has to shed in my shed…   K, disappointed: Oh, Rekka.   R, unashamed: It works with the name, but it’s also because it makes me feel less lonely for my pets that are in the house because we don’t want them shedding in the shed.    K: Alright, I’m derailing this conversation now. This just goes down a road of puns that there’s no recovery from, and then we have to start over again and it’s just… it’s gonna be a thing. So, Mike, do you wanna save us here and introduce yourself?   [K and R laugh]   M: Sure. I’m Mike Underwood, I write as Michael R. Underwood. I mostly do action adventure meta-genre kinds of stuff. I like found families, I like trope-twisting, and my next book is Annihilation Aria which is coming out with Parvus Press, so I’ve had the fortune of getting to work with both of you in a professional capacity and I’m very excited to talk about the book with your audience.   K: We’re really excited to have you on here, because this book has a long and storied history. This was not a, simply, Wrote Something, Submitted It, Got It Accepted and Published. There was, even before it came to Parvus, before I started working on it, you were, what? three-ish years into this book at that point?   M: Yeah, so. This book basically starts in the movie theater as I’m watching Guardians of the Galaxy.   K: Okay.   M: And like really enjoying a lot of what it did with tone and, kind of, bold visual style with all of the high technicolor space opera bits, plus some retro nostalgia aspects. And so that informed a conversation I had with an editor, who I shall let remain nameless, that I was talking with at a world fantasy convention. In that conversation, I mentioned that I really would love to write something that would make people feel the same type of joy and smile-so-much-your-cheeks-hurt kind of vibe, that I got while watching so much of Guardians of the Galaxy. And it’s not a perfect film because there are very few perfect films, but I loved that mode of space opera that it had. Where it’s a bit more irreverent, it still has some of the found family vibes that you see in something like Firefly or Killyjoys. But it’s on the more adventure-y, epicfantasy but-make-it-space and pewpew versus space opera that’s a lot more, that leans more towards hard science like something like The Expanse. I’ve always been more of a Dune- and Star Wars-end of space opera kid versus that kind of overlap between space opera and military SF or the [radio voice] This Is What Thing Will Be Like Seven Hundred Years In the Future When We Have An Alcubierre Drive or whatever. That’s not my thing.   [K and R laugh]   M: And so what I brought to it was, you know, a lifetime of loving Star Wars, but also various roleplaying games and wanting to find in a project, a place to say what I was interested in and investigate the things I loved about space opera. So I took a play from Annie Balay, who has talked about making up a wishlist of tropes that she loves about urban fantasy, and she put those into a series. So I just kind of sketched out fun, weird things. Like, “What if giant spaceturtles?” and space magic bullshit and—   R: Perfect.   M: And finding a way to just kitchen sink a novel, in terms of things that I liked. And it kind of started to build up momentum there. But because I wrote it as a back-burner project over years and years and years, where it started and what it has become now, there’s a big gap there and there’s a lot to unpack from what the characters were really about to how the world feels to, then, into the editorial process with Kaelyn kind of repeatedly inviting me to unpack things or slow down and give a deeper view into characters.   K: It’s very generous of you to use the word “invited you to”.   R: Yeah, I was gonna say. I know Kaelyn, that’s a very interesting verb choice.   K, laughing: “Mike, I’d like to hear more about this.” “Oh, okay, here’s a sentence.” “No, Mike, I know where you live, Mike!”   That was something that I, just for clarification I’m the editor of Parvus that worked with Mike on this in case that hasn’t become apparent. One of the things that really drew me to this book and that I was wanting Mike to slow down and unpack was the characters. For all the setting and the fantastical elements of this, the characters are such a huge driving force, I think, for the story. I would absolutely read anything that is just set in this universe. As long as the characters are as engaging, compelling, and fun as the ones that you’re written in Annihilation Aria. But you had kind of  a few things that you wanted to accomplish with the characters, as well.    M: Yeah, so. I’ve been in the same relationship since 2010, I’m happily married. My wife and I get along very well, and in science fiction, fantasy, adventure fiction especially there’s just not a lot of instances of happily committed couples. Let alone happily committed married couples. And I think there’s a lot of cultural reasons that go into this, that are probably several podcasts-worth of their own and would be best had in conversation with capital R, Romance writers.    But the short version was that I wanted to write the kind of story that really argues that Happily Ever After can also be really exciting. So that was one of the nexuses around which the story was built. Like, okay, well what if I do this but I have a couple that’s already together and happy at the beginning of the book. And not that they don’t face challenges and one at the start of their relationship was: these people who both have a quest that they’re trying to fulfill, if either of them gets what they want, theoretically the couple breaks up.   R: Yeah.   M: But that, when they meet, they’re like, “Oh, you can help me with my thing and I’ll help you with your thing,” except that along the way they fell in love. They’re still on this trajectory that theoretically means—that could mean the dissolution of the relationship, but they don’t really have anything else as a way of being in the world, because they can’t just be together and be happy. They have their own drives and they exist in a pretty oppressive system that requires that they have a lot of money because they both have exterior debts and things like that. The same kind of Firefly vibe.    So that tension between their attraction to each other and their individual quests that might pull them apart was one of the big engines that made the story move. So that when they run into this ancient kingdom, techno, biotech tomb that they run into early in the story, that gets a McGuffin in their hands that then becomes a big deal. And they’re each engaging with it and the things around them because they have these, sometimes competing, usually overlapping, drives that are motivating them.    And that, almost like a perpetual motion machine of character interaction, was really fascinating and I wanted to keep on working with, while trying to balance, respecting the fiction. There really is this chance that things could fall apart for them, while knowing that I wanted them to not break-up because that was part of the whole thing.   R: One thing that was notable for me, as I was reading the book, was that at no point do they not want the other one to succeed. They are so supportive of each other that even though it means that it would break them up, they exist on different planes. Yes, this fact is over here that if I got what I wanted, I would be across the galaxy from this other person.    But at the same time, same plane, they also really want the other person to be happy and to succeed at their personal character arc quest and it’s really, like you said, it builds tension but it’s just really nice to see people who support each other and, even though there’s this big divide between what’s best for their relationship versus what’s best for the individual.   K: Yeah, and along those lines—and this maybe might be a transition into talking about some of the more mechanical aspects of writing this—is that these two characters are Max and Lahra and they are two of the main POV characters, but when you started writing this, they were the only POV characters, correct? [12:46]    M: I think there were a very small number of POV chapters for Wheel, who is the pilot of the two main characters, and then Arek, who is kind of their primary antagonist. So he’s an agent of this galactic empire that controls the space that they live in. I had a little bit from each of them as counterpoint or context, but it was still very much Max and Lahra’s story and the other ones were just there to give a little bit of context and color.    And only over years of doing other projects and writing and growing as a creator, did I make the moves to promote Wheel and Arek as POV characters and to treat them with more depth and groundedness, as I engaged with them. Especially into the revision process, I saw and was convinced that there was more for the novel to do and it could be richer for digging more into the emotional lives of all four of those POV characters.   R: And you really did. Especially with Arek. He’s not the prototypical space-fiction villain. He’s got a lot of complexity to him. He is still definitely a villain, but he’s the least worst villain personality? And they’re definitely—again, you’ve given each character a drive and something that they’re aiming for which might be at odds with what the organizations that they work with are aiming for.  So, how did you make those decisions, as you’re developing? Especially a villain character, but also Wheel.    It’s really interesting that Wheel might have had a very tiny part just in the sense that Wheel is the owner of the ship that everyone lives on, I assume, and maybe Wheel has to help rescue at some point. Or Wheel has to support with something Wheel can witness that the other characters can’t, or something like that. I mean, I have obviously done the same thing with POVs where somebody was there because it was convenient to have another POV and then that person had to become a fully-rounded character of their own. But when you built Arek, you didn’t have to go that far. You still could have sold this book without going as far with Arek as you did. But, so why—how did you start to see Arek and how much sympathy do you, personally, have for him?    K: Well, and I’ll jump into just to add that you gave all of these characters a life outside of this story. Every single person, if they were not taking part in this story happening to them, would be doing something else. And we, the reader, are in a position where  we can kind of see or imagine what they’re doing because even though you don’t have to spend a lot of time on it, but it gives us a very good sense of them.    M: Yeah, I think a lot of how I approach characterization and writing is probably informed by growing up playing table-top roleplaying games. So, table-top roleplaying was one of the main ways that I learned to tell stories and to think about what I wanted from stories. Alongside reading and watching TV and movies and reading comics and things like that. So in a lot of roleplaying, you have the characters as they are and then you’re engaging with a game master who says, “Here’s a plot!” and then you engage with the plot. And that’s one style of game mastering, and more recent roleplaying games, a lot of them are more player-driven in terms of character agenda and shared narrative authority and things like that. And the Apocalypse World tradition from that game by Vincent and Meguey Baker and all the games that come from it.   So I brought kind of one version of acting experience to writing. In terms of: okay, here’s a character and they are my character and I wanna be able to inhabit them at least a little bit to get a sense of who they are, so that when I, then, also as the writer, can throw things at them. I’m able to jump between those registers in terms of inhabiting a character and kind of providing the antagonism or the context and/or all the other stuff that goes around a character. I think it was because I was familiar with that style—so much of what my writing comes out of is that if I’m gonna be in the POV of a character, it’s hard to not spend some time with them and to linger with them and to think about their agency and their—what they want from the world.    And as much as I grew up loving Star Wars and Darth Vader, and Darth Vader is a great antagonist but he’s not a great character in a rounded fashion because he’s so much of a cypher. He is the iron fist that punches at the protagonists. You get into the prequels and you see some of the backstory and—but that’s not what I grew up with. I was sixteen or so when Episode I came out and we really start to get that backstory for him. I think I moved toward this point where, at least some of the time, I want villains or, at least the personification of villainy or the person that the team is engaging with, to feel enough like a person that they are not just a moustache-twirling for. Because I’ve written more straight-up moustache-twirling villains in other books. Like in Shield and Crocus, which is very superhero-y, the villains kind of run the gamut. Some of them are just like, “I Am Really Terrible! HAHA! Oppression!”   [K laughs quietly]   M: In Arek, I think he started out as more of Lieutenant Bad Guy and he probably grew that roundedness when I thought about like, “Why is he the one who’s out here in the Boondocks?”   R: Mhm.   K: Yeah.   M: Who is the person within this species-supremacist empire that ends up on this bad duty? And, okay, I know that, from what I know about militaries and governments, okay you get a crap duty because you piss somebody off or because you’re out of favor. Well what is it like to be out of favor in this species of supersoldier, galactic tyrants? Why would that be a thing? So I started thinking a little bit about class and caste within a species. Or is it that he has some relationship to the dominant ideology of the species? So he ended up as being more humane than most of the members of his civilization.    Because of that, he was marginalized within this very domineering, fascist civilization. It’s a little bit of getting to talk about the way that oppressive civilizations oppress even the people that have power or that not everybody is equal, even within an oligarchy. Because the lines of oppression and pressures are not all along one axis. Everything is very multiaxial in terms of where people occupy more privileged or less privileged positions or are taking actions that put them more or less in line with a dominant paradigm.   Thinking about worldbuilding in that fashion is also really important to me. So when I take a character and put them through that bouncy castle of all these different things of worldbuilding, they tend to accrete a bit more personhood.   K: So, piggybacking off of that, and we kind of touched on this a little bit before, was that you wrote this over a lengthy period of time and there were characters that evolved, obviously, and became more prominent points for, well, viewpoints in the story. How much of that, do you think, was really getting comfortable with and learning about this world you were creating and wanting to build upon, and how much was that, we’re all adults here but, three years, you grow and change and you look back at things that you did before that and go, “Oh, well I don’t like that anymore.” How much of it was organic story-building and evolution and how much of it was going back and evaluating what you’d already written?   [21:35]   M: I think it was definitely both, and in a really integrated circuit kind of way. That life experience and working as a writer were very intertwined. I would fold life experiences into writing or I would develop my understanding of storytelling in a more nuanced fashion because I had time. And because I had time, I could let things remain and mull and simmer over time. Well, what if not just this layer of how Lahra’s civilization operates, but what if there’s this other thing that builds on what’s already there. There’s a multi-caste system and you’ve got the nobility atop and you’ve got soldiers and the soldiers serve the nobility and, well, in a civilization you can’t just have soldiers and nobility. You’re gonna have farmers, you’re gonna have technicians, you’re gonna have all these things.   Okay, so there’s these other parts of society and I had the title Annihilation Aria way before the Genae had music magic.    K: Mhm.   M: Because the title, Annihilation Aria, was like, “Oh, that’s cool because space opera,” and I’m riffing on that, but it’s its own thing. And, you know, world killers are a big thing in space opera. How can I take these things and make them my own? And then I realized, looking back, as I was picking away at the project over years, that I’d already set a foundation upon which I could build something that would give Lahra’s civilization and, therefore her backstory, more meat to it. As I was writing parts of the story where the Genae really matter, I was able to layer on these extra things.    Having more time to layer texture and history onto the story was really valuable and because a lot of the other ways that I’ve written—I wrote my debut and I got an offer to sell it very early in the revision process because of wacky circumstances for which I’m very fortunate. From there, I had several years of, “Okay, cool. So you have a contract, write a book. Turn it in. Production. Publication.” And so I wrote books that were much more condensed in their timeline. So it’s write a book over nine months, revise it over six months, it comes out, or sometimes a little bit more. Sometimes even a little bit less.    With this one, because I didn’t sell it on spec, and I was going in a different direction, it had this opportunity to accrete depth and texture over time. But I don’t want to have a writing career where it takes five years to do every book.   R: I was just about to say, is that something you recommend?    K: Real quick, Mike, if you wouldn’t mind backtracking to kind of go on a little side tangent here. You said “write a book on spec.” For our listeners that maybe do not have as much experience in the professional writing world as you do, what are you saying here? What is writing a book on spec versus what you did with Aria?   M: Sure. So, I sold my debut having written the whole book. And then: cool, we wanna publish this and a sequel. Great. So I did that and then I went back to the same editor and I said, “I wanna write something else from these Ree Reyes books. And so I created pitches and I sold them. I sold those books without having written the whole book, which is one version of—   K: You’re selling based on the pitch that you’re giving.   M: Yeah, and that’s one degree of selling on spec. There are people who say, “Cool! I wanna write a book!” and the publisher’s like, “We love you! Please sell us this book!” That is really selling a book on spec, you know. And that’ll show up in Publisher’s Weekly or Locus as: Famous Author’s Next Book to Editor at Publisher. And it can be very vague. It takes a while for most authors to get to the point where they can just say, “I wanna write a book for you!” and the publisher says, “Yes! Here’s some money.”   K: Most authors will not get to a point where that happens in their career. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s just that, typically—and correct me if I’m wrong—these are going to be household names either within the general populous or within genres.   M: Yeah.   K: You will know the people that are able to sell books on spec.   M: Yeah, or it’s like—I have friends who sell a book that’s already written, but it’s a standalone so they get a two book deal and the second book is: it’ll be a book.   K: Yes! Yeah.   M: That’s probably more common than, “Here’s a one book deal. I don’t know what the book is yet, but I have the track record that you just wanna buy it.” So I had tried to sell a couple of books on partials because I said, “Well, okay, I have this track record and I have this background in the professional side of publishing.” But those didn’t happen. So I just went back to writing new novels and trying to sell things and, at this point, I’d been wanting to do enough different things with my writing where it’s like, “Cool.I’ve got these adventure books and I wanna write some other stuff that’s a bit more sociological or political and try to balance all these things that I wanna do as a creator.”    But I don’t wanna spend five years for each book because, economically, it’s just not viable to be able to support the costs of a writing career in terms of conventions and things like that off of one book every five years unless I’m getting just a lot more money. And very few people get so much money from science fiction, fantasy that they can spend five years on a book. So Aria is this weird book that may be pretty singular in my career, in terms of how long it has taken to become the thing that will be published in, as of this recording, in a couple of months.    So I try to revel in that distinctiveness because it will probably be pretty singular and hope to apply the lessons that I’ve learned while writing it much more efficiently moving forward. To think about things with texture and depth from an earlier part, an earlier stage of the process and then to embrace the opportunity to make a book more rich and texture in the revision process. To try to do several years’ worth of work in maybe a year, year and a half, in strong collaboration with an agent or an editor or something like that.     R: So you’ve spent the last, you know, hand-crafting the tools themselves that you now can put in your toolbox and reach for, hopefully, and use them without having to remake them every time, going forward?   M: I sure hope so.   R: Well that would be a very efficient use of your time, I think.   M: Yeah. I just finished the rough draft for a new novel that is very different from Aria, but I think it would have been very hard for me to write it, if I had not already been through that process of pulling this book together over the course of several years while working on other things as my main deal.Like, developing and doing all the work for Born to the Blade and self-publishing stuff from Genrenauts and things like that. So I’m hoping that the messiness I can clean up a bit while still being able to reapply those tools, as you say.   K: Now, Mike, when you went back from this and I just know from our conversations and working together that, at various points, you spent a lot of time working on this. You picked it up, you put it down again. You came back and forth to it. Were there any points, when you were going through and revising this, that you knew there were changes you had to make that you weren’t happy about making? That you were reluctant to really do anything with?   R: Tell us how Kaelyn hurt you.   M: Um…   K, laughing: No, no we’re talking pre-editor.   R: Oh, okay. If you say so.   K: Well, what I’m trying to get at here is, and Rekka and I back in May, we will have released an episode about making hard decisions about your manuscript and changing things on recommendation, but then also doing it yourself and having that awareness of, “Hey, maybe this isn’t as strong as I want it to be,” or “Maybe this no longer serves this story.” And the reason I’m asking is because you did write this over such a long period of time, it gives you the time and perspective to go back and consider these things.   M: Yeah, so probably the biggest, hardest change was—In the first draft, the novel opens much later in the story compared to the novel as published. And, at that point, I was going for a kind of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark-style opening because that’s another touchstone for this work, as well as something like the 1999 Brendan Fraser-Rachel Weisz The Mummy movies.   [31:09]   K: It’s funny because I remember when I got this manuscript and I was talking to our publisher, Colin, he said, “What do you think?” I said, “It’s The Mummy set in space with elements of Guardians of the Galaxy,” but mostly I said it’s The Mummy in space. If that doesn’t sell a book, I don’t know what will.   M: Yeah, and that Rick and Evy relationship, especially in the second Mummy movie was another big touchstone in terms of, like, they have their own things, they are committed to each other, they’re on adventures—   R: But they have their own styles. Yeah.   M: Yeah, but I have this opening for the book. And one, the first draft came out pretty short because often will draft short and a book will grow in revision because my earlier drafts tend to be a lot more, “Okay, cool. Action, action. World, World. Action, action, action.” And then I go back and unpack things. And, moving forward, I’m hoping that my first drafts will have a little bit more character and breadth and space in them and that in revision I’ll just build on that, as opposed to having to do quite so much work to unpack it.   So there’s—In several different cultures across the world, there’s a mythology that the Universe started as two lovers embraced and that that’s the whole of physical space and that then something or some people push them apart to create the gap between the Earth and the sky. And so I’m trying to make it so that my novels are not that process so much, and that they start out with a bit more room to breathe, so that both the characters can breathe and that the reader can have the space to feel all those emotions as powerfully because they’ve taken the time to ruminate on them, versus just, “Here’s a flashy scene! And here’s some people! And they have distinctive characteristics and now they’re gonna be action figures through a space!”   I want to do more and dwell more with those characters. And part of that’s inspired by reading a lot more romance novels. Where, in romance, the best writers will do a great job of unpacking emotional reactions. So, I have this one start of the novel and I knew that I needed to set things up better, and I wanted a kind of broader story, so that involved moving the clock back within this timeline which also then gave me the opportunity to ground the characters more in their home away from home, in this colony ship that turned city in space called The Wreck. So what if you took a colony ship with a dozen species and they all loaded up this big ship and they had all of their hopes and dreams and they set off and then something goes really wrong and it crashes into some asteroid somewhere. And they absolutely cannot get going again.    I really liked that setting, I just kind of played through it in the original draft. So, in the revision, I was able to say, “Okay, here are the things I like about this, and now I wanna do more with them.” And that was also when I was able to kind of graduate Wheel into more of an equal POV character, in the way that she is tied to this place. And that they, the three of them, Max, Lahra, and Wheel are caught up in this net of relationships and factions. So it was a lot of forcing myself to kind of put my money where my mouth was about: here are things I like in writing, here are things I like in storytelling. I’m gonna push myself to dig deeper, to put the world on display more, to put my characters under pressure along several different axes that then makes it more realistic within the narrative. That they make the choices that they’re making as the story unfolds, so that at any given moment, they’re stuck between some bad options and they try to make the best opportunity for themselves.   Whereas, previously, the reason why they went and did the things that they did, in the earlier drafts, were a little bit more because it’s what I wanted from them, and less because it was the only thing that made sense for who they were as characters and what their relationships were at the time. So it was a lot of raising the stakes, but not in a grimdark fashion. Stakes and the degree to which the characters were enmeshed in the world and were both affected by it and agents effecting it.    R: I want to call attention to what you said, though, about as you expand your draft, you are not adding density to all the spots that you’re expanding, just for the sake of making it longer. But that you actually are going to this with such intent that you are actually creating space, not creating more. You didn’t double the action and then double the tension. You created a space that gave all the characters more room to become alive. So I just thought I’d draw attention to that because so often we talk about, “Oh, yes, in revision my book doubles in length,” but we don’t often say what that content is.   K: Well you can double in length and more than double in substance.    R: Oh yeah, yeah.   K: I think that’s a trap a lot of writers fall into where: I just need to add and add and add, and then at some point someone is gonna tell me, “Yes, you have enough here.” And it’s less about it being enough and more about it being efficient and effective.    M: Right, yeah, because there’s nothing about Storytelling that says, “Ah, sorry, this is only 70,000 words, it’s not a story yet.”   K: Yeah, and if somebody’s telling you that, don’t listen to that person. That’s not—   M: Yeah, and it’s—We’re in a position now, in the industry, where you can publish shorter work and there’s still a chance to find an audience. And any given publisher has their own model that they’re operating within. If you’re selling paper books, there’s kind of a minimum word count that will give you a spine that you can put text on. Those physical realities inform book publishing to a certain degree, but I was already playing within the novel space that was like, “Oh, well if I do more and I’m thoughtful—” It’s not that the book is 30 percent better because it’s 30 percent longer, that’s not the equation that we’re talking about.    There is more space for the character relationships, for those relationships to inform the action, for there to be an arc of how these people relate to each other and the ways that they are or are not invested in different things. So that, then, when I’m doing the big space opera finale, the reader feels like they’ve gone through the flow and the rise and fall of these characters, that the decisions they make there are both believable and kind of a natural catharsis for what the characters have gone through before. So that you get the reader, like, punch-the-fist-in-the-air experience when the character does the big thing.   R: So it’s not just about getting to 100,000 words and stopping.   M: Yeah.   R: Yeah.   K: I will say that, at Parvus, we have, for submissions, a 60,000 word minimum, but that’s because we publish novels and, sure, you can make an argument for some novels that are a little bit below there, but, as Mike said, there’s a certain point where you say, “I need this many words in order for this to be a book that I can have a spine and put the title on.” That said, there’s no reason to restrict yourself to a word count. If you have a great story and it’s 40,000 words, there are places that are looking for great stories that are 40,000 words.   R: Yeah. The only question is what category of the awards do you have your dreams set on, you know? But yeah, tell the story at the length that the story wants to be told. And if you want to explore more ideas, then the story gets a little longer. So, Mike, while you were expanding the story, how much of the relationship between Max and Lahra changed? I mean, you already said that you wanted them to have an established, committed relationship, but how fraught with tension did you want that to be? Like you said one of your inspirations was Guardians of the Galaxy, but Max is as far from Peter Quill as you can get, so what’s—how did that develop?   M: Yeah, I think Max as a character much more emerged from—the idea that I had was, what if you had the couple from The Mummy but you flipped the genders?   R: Mhm.   K: Yup.   M: So you have the fighty, square-jawed character is the wife and the, kind of, not-so-useful in a fight, academic who’s not as used to jumping around in the world, is the husband. And that’s really where it starts because they diverge pretty far from just those two because I wanted to figure out how to have the fish-out-of-water character work. Like, Max is from Earth and this is Very Far from Earth.    [K laughs] And drawing on that tradition of John Carter or of Farscape. There was a lot. It’s portal fantasy, but science fiction. Ultimately.   R: Yeah.   [41:05]   M: And how much it is portal fantasy can depend on how much being from Earth matters. The amount that being from Earth mattered, for Max, kind of increased over time, especially as I was really doubling-down on who Max was. Because Max is a Black guy from Baltimore so he grew up in a specific economic and political and cultural context, but then he’s the one who gets flung into a distant galaxy. Whereas racism doesn’t work the same way there and that’s not the main thing because that’s not my story to tell, as a white writer, but I was committed to respecting who Max is, as a person, and so I was able to build some things around him.    So what that became is that Max was already used to code switching between different cultural registers, and then here we have this multicultural civilization that is multicultural and multispecies and that, as an archaeologist and linguist, that was his superpower is being able to pick up language and study and understand culture. So, already, he’s really far from Peter Quill, who’s much more like a John Carter type of character, who is almost more in the Western tradition.   R: He just shoulders his way through every situation.   K: I was gonna say like a bull in a china shop. Just, you know, dropped in and is going to behave and do the same thing no matter where they are and who’s around them.   R: Yeah, definitely no code switching from Peter Quill.    M: Yeah, and then in thinking about who each Max and Lahra were, I had to be smarter and more thorough about who the other were because I needed to have a sense of how they interacted with each other. Like, what does Lahra do when Max is at his workstation for hours and hours and hours poring through manuscripts and trying to translate things? Like, does she just leave him to do his own thing? Does she hang out with him? What would make sense? Because she’s a bodyguard, she grew up in this cultural paradigm from her mother that was very much about a dyadic relationship, but between charge and guardian. Well, how does that inform who she is as a partner in a relationship? She’s more likely to be the kind of partner who would hang out with you while you’re doing your thing to make it clear to you that she’s supporting what you’re doing, but she’s not like—   R: Invading it.   M: She’s not invading it, she’s not making it a thing that has to be about both of them. Okay, well, then how does Max react when Lahra is really upset about something? He’s more likely to be the person who wants to talk it out, but they’ve been together for long enough that he realizes that some of the things that he wants to do are not actually what Lahra needs, as a person. Because I’m writing this relationship between people who are adults and they’ve lived enough life and they’ve spent enough time with each other that they’ve come to understand one another’s rhythms. Writing that part of the relationship was really rewarding because I got to show the way that I can write in Max’s POV and characterize Lahra, while characterizing Max. Because then I can write in Lahra’s POV about Max, through her own POV and the places where how they see each other don’t exactly line up.    Then tell the reader that these are both unreliable narratives because this is tight third person, which has enough overlap with first person that you’re gonna get some of that unreliability. And you understand more of what that relationship needs by getting both of the two, each of their buy-in. In terms of where they see themselves, where they see their partner, where they have doubts and fears, and how that manifests in the way that they act and how it does and doesn’t manifest in how the other person sees them.   Because I don’t write the same scene from both POVs, but I do frequently write the sequel to a scene in the other partner’s POV. So that they’re reacting to the same stuff.   K: But, beyond even just Max and Lahra, then, we have Wheel. Who is, I won’t call her a third-party observer because that’s not the case, but is an outside perspective on a relationship and, inm any cases, the only outside perspective on a relationship.   M: Yeah, and she doesn’t have access to their interiority. Every relationship is different on the inside, even if you’re living with somebody else. You know, because maybe you overhear conversations, but you’re not having that same emotional experience. And so that was a little bit more of a place where I got to comment on the relationship from the outside, but also think about times where I have been the third wheel friend to a couple when they’re going through something. And Wheel is also very fun to write because she has a firmly developed self-image that is, to a certain degree, a protection against the way that things are. So she’s more of the curmudgeon character who makes a show of keeping people at arm’s length, but she could have kicked them out of the ship years ago and be doing something else. But she didn’t. Why is that? And she’s tied into other factions in the story and that tie also came later, because Wheel started out as more just, like, the Driver will get you from A to B.   Then it’s like, how does this technology work? Well, we’ve got these cyborgs and if they used to be an empire, why aren’t they in charge? Well, how are they still around? If you get overthrown, the people who overthrow you are going to try to keep you out of power as much as possible.   K, punny: Annihilate you, if you will.   [R giggles]   M: Yeah, so all of those worldbuilding questions, then, informed who the Atlan, Wheel’s people, who those people were. The cybernetics gives them the ability to engage with the warp drives, which is a little bit like how the Spice works in Dune, it’s a little bit like this, it’s a little bit like that. And that every time I went back into Wheel to either talk about how she’s seeing something else, or her position in this setting, engaging with factions on the Wreck or her own history as an even older, mature adult who’s been places and had relationships, every time I tried to fold in or think about some other topic, she grew more rounded as a person. That gave her even more different ways of engaging with Max and Lahra as characters.   K: Was there any evolution to Max and Lahra’s relationship? Did anything change as the story grew? Or did you always see them as two characters who love each other and are very happily married, but also have separate lives and separate goals that they’re working towards, and they’re going to help each other do this no matter what, but the more they help each other, the more they’re driving themselves apart?   M: I think the only time when I really had doubts about Max and Lahra was while I was writing the first draft because I had this premise and, following the fiction, I wanted to honor it enough to let there be the opportunity for maybe things to go bad for them. I, as a creator, had a specific type of outcome that I was shooting for, but I didn’t want to put my thumb on the scale so hard that I’m like, “Oh well! It doesn’t matter that these things happened, actually it’s gonna be Happily Ever After no matter what. Haha, I win.” Because that wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be as strong of a work. It would feel like there was a cop-out.    So, because I had an outcome in mind, it was more about what in the world has to be different from where things were, maybe, at the middle of my first draft so that it made sense. That the choices that they made led them to where they were at the end of the book. Probably the biggest changes there happened when the group goes to someplace that’s really important to Lahra and her heritage. I’ll stay vague for readers so that they go and buy the book and read it! Because it’s great!   K: It’s a fantastic book. Everyone should go buy it and read it.   M: And then, basically, since I believe very firmly that people are informed by their circumstances, but not always 100 percent limited by them—there’s places where agency is limited in society and so on—   K: Mhm, yep.   M: But that, because people are informed by their circumstances, if I want a different character output, I can change the circumstances to put different pressures on them and to give them different experiences that let them reflect differently on what they feel about things. So it was kind of a feedback loop between who these characters are as I’m expressing it in the writing, trying to respect who they are as people, as I understand them, and then also applying different pressures and adjusting the pressures on them so that the story stays within the trajectory that I’m thinking. Because probably the first core of the story was them and their relationship, and other things kind of grew around that. And then the thematics emerged from how they, as characters, reacted with one another and then, looking backward, how all those things operate. So that any thematic clarity that a reader gets from Aria is not something that was on page one of my notes.   [51:07]    M: It’s because the process of creating it as the book people will read was development rehearsal practice, re-rehearsal, changing the arrangement, practicing again, changing the blocking. I’m using music metaphors here because I’ve done music and theater. Not only is the story entertaining, but it’s also, as much as possible, saying the things that I would like to say, or inviting the reader to reflect on the same themes and ideas that were what I was hoping for them to do. Because, and this is something I’ve talked about with Kaelyn pretty early on in the process was, this could have been several different books.   K: It’s, and it’s something—I always joke that when I’m reading through books I can tell what sections of it were written at the same time. Authors, you guys aren’t always as slick as you think you are. You leave fingerprints on a lot of things. That was something coming into this, that I could tell what chunks of this book had kind of been written at the start, what parts had been revised very heavily, but we spent a lot of time in the beginning talking about the thematic elements of this. But also, as you said, this book could have gone a lot of different directions. I think it went, I will go so far as to say, the correct direction. The, one of the best possible directions it could have gone.    But I can see that in reading this, especially reading some of the earlier drafts that I got. There were a lot of different things that could have happened in this story and happened to these characters. I think that speaks very highly of your worldbuilding and your ability to create and develop believable characters, is that I can see them dropped into different scenarios and just acting on their own accord. They’re an object in motion at that point, rather than something that you’re directing to do certain things. And that’s amazing. That’s a fantastic thing to be able to do as a writer.    M: Yeah, another way of thinking about it—and this is definitely informed by a video I was watching recently, a conversation between a couple of game designers—is that some of it is just down to tone.   K: Yes.   M: Two musicians can take the same song and go—one musician says, “Okay, cool, I’m going for the same tone but I’m gonna move the key.” Just moving the key actually changes more than you expect. It’s the moody, emo down-tempo version of a pop song?   R: Yup.   K: I was just gonna say, actually, I just discovered a cover of “Smells Like Teen Spirit” by Tori Amos which is—actually I discovered it because it was on one of Rekka’s playlists that she sent me and it’s fantastic. But it completely changes what you would maybe think the underlying context of the song would be. So yeah, I think, as I said when we started all of this, I would read anything that you set in this world. Especially if the characters are as engaging and compelling and dynamic as the ones that you’ve created for Aria because I see them as their own people rather than chess pieces being moved around on a board. They’re there to carry out actions that it doesn’t always feel like you, the author, are dictating to them. They’ve taken on a will of their own at this point.    M: And that is for the best because if they’re—on a list of writing traps that I know I can fall into, having something that feels a little bit more like action figures and choreography is definitely on that list. And so I have to respect the characters and go back and make sure that all of the circumstances and the worldbuilding acoustics, maybe?—to extend the music metaphor—that those line up so that things end up the way that I would like them to be.   K: So, along those lines, and we’re getting to the end here to start wrapping up, we like to ask our guests for advice or introspective or something you wish you could go back and tell Mike five years ago, when he was starting this whole process.        M: I’ve been working as a writer, now, long enough that 5 years ago is not the start of my career. Because it used to be, people would ask me, “What would you tell a younger self?” and it used to be about revision and what I learned about revision from the late, great Graham Joyce and Clarion West. But that was a lesson I learned 13 years ago now. So I think the lesson for 5 years ago Mike would be: start reading romance, you’re gonna really like it and it’s gonna teach you a lot about character relationships and getting drama and emotional investment for the reader out of just the very core relationships between people.    In a romance, people are also emergent from their circumstances and there’s lots of things you can do there, but that emotional action flywheel of Person A does a thing, you’re in Person B’s POV, so Person B first has a visceral, embodied reaction to what, to the emotionally-charged thing that was said, and then we’re in their perspective and their mind is racing and reflecting on something and, maybe, they’re going through an emotional journey about what’s going on. Maybe it makes them think about something, but not so long that you can’t then go back into scene and write about what they’re doing in reaction so that you’re able to kind of create this cycle of action and reaction, where it’s not just talking heads but we’re also getting all of this beat-by-beat dramatization of the emotional arc, the emotional rollercoaster of your POV character along the way.   And that approach was a lot of what I had to bring to Aria in successive drafts, especially as Kaelyn kept on poking me and saying like, “No! Unpack this more! Slow down!” Either to give the emotional rollercoaster or to paint with a finer brush the world around the characters. And that that process and that urging to slow down and unpack has been really great, it’s been fun to do. So it’s not like I’m being told I have to eat my vegetables, it’s—give yourself the situation and the platform on which you can then do these things that you really like doing, and you’re gonna be happier with the results.   K: I think, in my experience dealing with authors, there’s what I’ll call an overcorrection that writers tend to incorporate into their work, which is: I don’t wanna be the long-winded person here. I don’t wanna be the one that spends a paragraph describing the exact emotion that this character is feeling for 150 words. And there is certainly something to be said for being aware of that, but at the same time, I conversely always point out: you know how they’re feeling, you know what they’re thinking. You need to make sure that’s coming across to the reader. The reader doesn’t get access to your brain for this, they get access to the pieces of it that you’re putting in this book.   So, yeah. And part of it was very selfish. Part of this was: Well, hang on, I wanna know what’s going on here! Mike! Tell me! So it’s a—I really liked learning more about these characters as the book developed and I think you did an outstanding job.   M: That’s a very kind sentiment and I’m very grateful that you had that experience. Because that makes me feel very good as a writer.   R: What I also love about it is that you have put in all this work for character-building and worldbuilding, but the book reads as fast as any omnomnommable sci-fi book out there. It does not get burdened with—as much work as you put into it, it doesn’t show. You have seamless story going on. Even though Kaelyn can tell which spots you rewrote, no one who picks up this book—   K: I’ll never tell!   R: That’s Kaelyn’s superpower, that’s not indicative of what you’re going to feel as you read it. But it’s very fast-paced and, as you said, you worked very hard on the tension and it shows. It pulls the reader straight from the beginning to the end and it definitely leaves you wanting more, so I hope that the space opera series is going to continue for quite some time because whether it’s Max and Lahra and Wheel or, you know, Kruji getting their own book. I’d read them all.   K: Kruji absolutely needs their own book. The entire story of Annihilation Aria from the perspective of Kruji.   M: Well, I’ll write some books. And then twelve years after the series ends, I’ll come back and do the Kruji book. Because I’ve started a number of different series and the heartbreaking thing about publishing is it’s—   K, laughing: There’s only one!   M: It’s hard to justify writing something when I don’t see a market for it.   K: Yeah.   M: And so there are things that I would love to go back to, but right now the economic reality says, “Why would you do that? That’s a terrible idea!” So what I’m hoping for, with any given new series, is I hope that this finds enough of an audience that there is the demand to create the economic circumstances that will let me pursue that interest more. Because only now in the novel I just wrote, have I written something that I think actually could stay a stand alone. Everything else, I’m writing a world that I think I could do a lot more things in. I could do more things in this just finished novel’s world, but I want that novel to be able to stand on its own.   For the space operas, I would love to write more, and I will write more if the circumstances permit.   K: Yeah, it’s a very difficult thing for, not just writers but creators in general, to say: I am making this and it is a finite project that is done now.    R: Well you spend all that time living in that world!   K: Exactly, yeah.   R: And so you see all the corners where you’re like, “Oh! There’s someone down there. I gotta go follow that after I’m done with this.”   M: Yeah.   K: For instance, Kruji, who I feel like has a lot of very important stories to tell. Some perspectives and insights to offer the reader that is really going to enrich the story of the Kettle. So, uh, that’s—   M: Smart readers will be able to pick up some of the places where that could go in some chunks of the novel. And if you figure it out, email me on my website.   K: So, yes! Speaking of, Annihilation Aria is out a week from today! You still have time to pre-order the book and the audiobook, as well, is available for purchase. Mike, where can people find you online?   M: Sure, so my website is michaelrunderwood.com, that has kind of basic updates. I have a Patreon that you can find at Patreon.com/michaelrunderwood—    K: And it comes with a lot of pictures of a cute dog. Very cute dog. Highly recommend.   M: My dog, Oreo, is really the star of my Patreon and that’s fine. I know how the internet works.   [K laughs]   R, laughing: Yeah. Give the people what they want.   M: And if you’re listening to this, you like podcasts so I am an occasional guest-co-host on the Skiffy and Fanty show which is a general fannish podcast about books and movies and TV and so on. And I am a co-host on Speculate which is an actual play podcast starring science fiction-fantasy professionals. As of this recording, we’ve started a Blades in the Dark miniseries, I’m gonna start a Star Wars miniseries using the Scum and Villainy system and, sometime in the future, there may be some roleplaying in a world that listeners of this episode will now be familiar with. But more will come on that later on.   R: Hm.   K: That’s a nice teaser there. Okay. Well, Mike, thanks so much for talking to us. This was great! I mean, for as much as I’ve already gotten to hear about this, I never get tired of talking about this book and the characters and the process to get it to where it was.   M: Yeah, thank you very much. Because it’s written over such a long time, I am still processing all of the lessons and things. Like, “Oh! That really did take this thing!” or “This is where that actually comes from!” So that process, just by itself, is really rewarding for me and it’s fun to get to—to participate in this show that I have enjoyed as a listener.   R: Well thank you for that.   K: Thank you! Alright, well thanks again, Mike, and everyone for listening. We’ll talk to you in two weeks!   [outro music plays]   R: Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram. Or wmbcast.com!   If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast. If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand. And what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find out podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter.   Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon!      

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we are talking pen names!  What is a pen name and why would you want to use one?  We know what you're thinking, practically every episode we've mentioned your website, your social media, your brand - wouldn't a pen name just make it harder to for people to find you and check out your work?  The truth is there are lots perfectly good reasons to want to use a pen name instead of your own and in this episode we get into those reason plus some of the fact and fiction of pen names (there is some really weird misinformation out there about what a pen name can do for a writer).   We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the best pen name you've ever come up with! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 38: An Author Called By Any Other Name Will Still Write Amazing Things transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.   K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press and—   R: But is that your real name?   K, sighing: Well, um. The acquisitions editor for Parvus Press is a suffix that I use to—   R< laughing: I was gonna say, don’t you get tired of saying the whole thing every time?   K: It is a bit of a mouthful. Sometimes I do just introduce myself as Kaelyn. So, yeah, we’re talking about pen names today in this episode. What are they? Why do people use them? Why are they beneficial? How do you pick one? All of these important aspects.   R: And what not to expect from your pen name.   K: Yeah, things that a pen name will not do for you. There’s some frightening stuff on the internet.   R: There’s some bad advice out there, did you know that?   K: Yeah, who woulda thought? Just because it’s on the internet, doesn’t mean it’s always true.   R: Yeah. Yeah, imagine that.   K: Pen names can be an important and valuable tool, so that’s what we spend some time talking about in this episode. You know, if you’re going to use one, getting the most bang for your buck, so to speak.   R: If you’re early enough in your career that you might wanna choose a pen name, I hope this is something that gives you stuff to think about. If you’re mid-career, you know, you might still decide that you’re gonna launch a new career in a different genre or something. But it’s also, you know, maybe it’ll help reinforce the decision you did make. So take a listen and enjoy!   K: Enjoy, everyone!   [intro music plays]   K: My bluejay nemesis.   R: Is back?   K: Well, here’s the thing, it turns out it was never gone! Because I found out that bluejays are actually excellent mimics, so—   R:Ohhh, yeah.   K: I saw it and it was like… it was very jarring because it was not making the normal bluejay noise. And I was like, “Oh my god!” And it… it can imitate other birds. I hate this thing so much! It’s… it’s terrible. I mean, thankfully it’s not sitting outside my window every morning screaming and waking me up like it has been in previous years. But I feel like it is tormenting me now. It is absolutely, now, pretending to be other birds.   R: Maybe that’s a courtesy to you. Like, it knows that you don’t like the jay. So you might better enjoy a chickadee.   K: Okay. I live in New York City. There’s no chickadees here.    R: Which is why I could never live in New York City. Chickadees are my favorite birds.   K: No, but apparently it can imitate hawks?   R: Hm.   K: So it’s been doing that, a little bit. And then, now I’m like thinking, “There have been other weird bird noises I’ve been hearing. Is that also this damn bluejay?”   R: Probably.   K: Oh, god I hate this thing.   R: It’s putting on a performance for you! It’s dedicated its life’s work to this portfolio of bird calls and it knows that you, alone, in the world can appreciate them.   K: I would just appreciate it if it went away.   R: Well, yes. You, alone, would also appreciate that.   K: But hey! Speaking of pretending to be other things!   [R and K laugh]   K: You see what I did there?   R: I see what you did there.   K: Today we’re talking about pen names.   R: Nom de plume!   K: And pen names are not necessarily pretending to be another person all the time. There’s a lot of reasons you could have a pen name.   R: Yeah. It’s funny because the first thing I ever remember about encountering the concept of pen names was when I learned that Charles de Lint wrote horror under another name. And I thought that was the most bizarre thing in the universe, that someone would change their name and hide their books from their fans!   Because to me, I liked Charles de Lint so much as a teenager, I read everything I could get my hands on and then I was out of books—Well, I say I was out of books, the other books I couldn’t find were out of print. And so to find out that there were more books I could have been reading! I was very upset, even though I wasn’t a horror reader. I would have gotten into reading horror because this author that I liked so much wrote it. And that was my first encounter with the concept of an author name.    K: I think we all have that jarring moment, somewhere in late elementary school when we were told that Mark Twain was not Mark Twain’s actual name.   R: Oh! Yeah, okay. So, yeah, I did know that but for some reason that didn’t count. Maybe because he was a historical figure.   K: Yeah, and also because I think we only knew him as Mark Twain. When you find out that his real name was Samuel Langhorne Clemens, you’re kinda like: “Oh, you know what I see why he went with Mark Twain.”   R: See, I always thought, because I knew Mark Twain and the name is so familiar, Samuel Clemens sounded like the more intriguing name, when I heard that. But the—Yeah, I guess Mark Twain wasn’t something that I read a lot of. And it wasn’t like Samuel Clemens had another collection of books that I could’ve been reading.   K: Exactly, that’s the thing is that he only wrote under Mark Twain, I think even with his newspaper writings.    R: Mhm.   K: I’m pretty sure he only wrote as Mark Twain, as well.   R: That sounds right, yeah.   K: I don’t think he ever really published much under Samuel L. Clemens. But there’s a long history of people using pen names. There’s a lot of pen names out there that people do not realize were pen names. For instance, George Orwell is a pen name. His actual name: Eric Arthur Blair. It’s not even close!   R: No, not even. And how do you come up with Orwell?   K: I… there’s a lot of things I wonder how that man came up with.   R: That—Fair enough. Okay, we’ll give you that one.   K: Jack Kirby, a famous early comic book writer and artist: Jacob Kurtzberg   R: Okay, so—but that’s gonna bring us into the whys of some of these, right? Because when he was working, there was a certain amount of prejudice against someone whose name would have been Kurtzberg.   K: Yeah. Yeah that—   R: Professionally, he would have had an easier time being Kirby.   K: Yes, definitely.   R: And that’s a shame. And that’s, unfortunately, still going on with pen names. I mean, we’ll get into some of that. But that is definitely still rampant is that there are preconceived notions of who belongs in what genre and who is worthy of respect. And people might choose a name that corresponds with people’s expectations of Greatness or Classics or anything like that. I mean, I will say I write under a pen name. You all know that.    K: We say at the top of every episode!   R: At the top of every episode, yeah! And I chose my pen name as an homage to someone who encouraged me a lot, but I also picked it, wrote it out and said, “Aww yeah that sounds like a author name!” And what does it sound like? It sounds masculine. It sounds like a white man’s name! And I’m half of that, but it was not really my intention to broadcast a masculine name that might fit better next to other masculine names on the shelf that get all the attention and draw. But to me, socially conditioned by the other names on the bookshelves in the store, I said, “Yeah! R.J. Theodore! That sounds like a real author’s name!   [K laughs]   R: I mean, honestly, if I could go back I’d pick something else. But I’m committed at this point. So.   K: So why do some people choose to write under pen names? Well, there’s a lot of reasons, obviously. Rekka just enumerated one for us. Would you call it branding, what you did?   R: Oh, definitely! Definitely. I mean, if you start a company, you name your company. And when you become a writer, if you intend to make a living at it, or at least make a career—whether or not the money is the point. But if you wanna do this for the long haul, you’re thinking about your presentation. Not just of your books and your stories, but yourself. So it is not unreasonable to sit down and come up with an author name and then because we DO NOT USE our legal signatures. Please, people. We practice the autograph of that author name and maybe even do that as part of feeling out whether you like the name and wanna stick with it. You know?   K: Branding is certainly a consideration when figuring out if you’re gonna use a pen name. Let’s be clear, right at the top, if your name is John Smith and you just feel like that’s your name and that’s what you want to write under, there’s absolutely no problem with that. You do not need to use a pen name. You do, however, need to be really good at marketing and maintaining your website and your internet presence, so that people can find you easily. Search engine optimization is going to be a key component to being successful here.   R: For John Smith, you are going to have to compete with police records, white pages, direct relistings—   K: Pocahontas.   R: That, too. You know, Florida Man. Everything is going to be a competition for you. So, you know, the elements of my pen name are not particularly unique but when you string them together and search for that, then that narrows down the field quite a lot.    K: Now, conversely, my name is very unique. I, as best I can tell, am one of the only two Kaelyn Considines in the world that spell their name this way. The other one is very clearly not me, if you punch it into Google. I will say that I have done different things, out in the world, under pen names. I am not going to say what they are or what that pen name is, explicitly because of privacy reasons.   R: Yes.   [10:50]   K: Because I have a professional life in publishing and a professional life outside of publishing. And, believe it or not, there are some things that I just don’t want intermingled all together with that. For the record, I am not doing anything nefarious or illegal. It’s just a matter of—   R: For the record, wink wink. If anyone asks...   K, laughing: Wanting to maintain some separation with different projects in my life.   R: Right. It’s privacy, but it’s specifically because you have aspects of your life that don’t need to mix. It’s not because you are trying to hide from anybody in a—it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if somebody found out the other name. But it would be annoying.   K: Well, I’ll be honest with you. When I started getting into publishing and when I came on at Parvus, I had a very frank conversation with Colin, who’s the publisher at Parvus Press, that I may need to do all of this under a fake name. Because my job at the time—I didn’t want it coming out that I was also running a side business, for a lot of reasons. And then, eventually, I decided, “Ugh, this isn’t worth it. I don’t have the energy to maintain this alternate presence!”    But the uniqueness of my name makes it so that, if you punch “Kaelyn publishing” into Google. I come up. I am the first result. If you punch “Considine” and anything vaguely associated with my name into Google, you will also find me very easily. When I started my previous job, when I was 26 and just out of grad school, years ago, I—the people that I worked with very quickly were able to punch me into Google and find all of these academic papers that I had published. That’s not a big deal, but they definitely had a lot of comments about how nerdy I was, as a result.   R: See, in the circles I run, that would be incredibly cool. So, don’t worry about it.   K: Oh, yeah, no it was kind of cool. But it was like, “Wow, you really are a huge history nerd, huh?” I’m like, “Yeah, I am. It’s you know.”   R: Mhm.   K: So, uniqueness or non-uniqueness are two factors here. In some cases, maybe your name is John Smith and you want to have something more akin to Kaelyn Considine where it’s easier to find you. Or, if you’re a Kaelyn Considine, maybe you—   R: Need a little more John Smith in your life.   K: Yeah, maybe you don’t always want to be found that easily. As we say on this show a lot, I am a pretty private person. I’m not super into social media, I don’t like to put a lot of myself out there. So I don’t like the idea of people being able to find me really easily.   R: But we should mention that just writing under a different name is not going to be enough to protect you from someone who wants to dig and find out who you are and how to find you.    K: Oh, yeah, no. It’s uh…   R: This is a very light coat of disguise. This is covering the Volkswagen bug that you’re racing with a grey cloth to make it look like a boulder. It only works because it’s a very low-fi film.   [14:21] K, laughing: Yeah, exactly. I will say—So another reason you might wanna use a pen name is maybe what you’re writing, you don’t necessarily want everyone to know that you’re writing it.   R: Right, that is definitely a possibility. Or, you know, maybe you have a family that you’re separated from and you don’t want them to know that you are writing at all.   K: Well, I will use an example from my real life. We have family friends that I grew up with and they have a daughter who’s a little older than me. Her mom started noticing that her and her husband seem to have some extra money. Not like a ton, not like a life-changing amount. They weren’t buying lamborghinis and moving into mansions, but they were—   R: Not stressing over small purchases.    K: Yeah, they put a lot of money into upgrading the house and took a really nice vacation. And her mom finally asked her, “Hey, did one of you get a raise or something?” and she said,” Oh, well you know how I wrote this book?” and she was like, “Oh! Did it start selling really well?” She’s like, “Well, no. But I kind of transitioned into writing some other things…”   Anyway, after some back-and-forth it came out that this person became one of the top ten selling erotica novelists in England for a long time. And she was doing this under a pen name. I think she kind of really nudged her way in right when Kindle unlimited was really taking off with this.   R: That’s the time, there you go.   K: Yeah. And she will not tell—we still have no idea—   R: What the pen name is.   K: Who she is, or what the pen name is! But she made a pretty decent amount of money off of it. Which, you know, good for her. But maybe you’re writing erotica and you don’t want everyone to know that you’re writing erotica.   R: Yeah, or just anything that you think you’d professionally or socially be shunned for, but it brings you joy. You know, just change the name and write under that. Again, if someone suspected it was you, it would probably be easy for them to figure out that it was. But if they’re looking for your name, this other name should not come up. As long as you’re just slightly careful about things.    K: That’s a good point, too, is when you’re deciding if you’re gonna use a pen name, one of the things you have to decide is how open you’re gonna be about this. Rekka is, for instance, very open about it.   R: Yep.   K: “I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.” Some people don’t ever really want you to see the person behind the pen name. Now, in the age of the internet this is very difficult to do.   R: Mhm.   K: There have been very famous writers that went their entire lives under a pen name that nobody ever—Like, Anne Rice’s name is not Anne Rice.   R: Right.   K: Her first name’s actually Howard.   R: Which is interesting. That’s a whole other conversation.   K, laughing: That’s a whole other conversation.   R: I mean, you know, again. Uniqueness. But also expectation of your genre. If Howard was a name that she chose to write with, why wouldn’t she use it? It’s because it doesn’t sound like a female-presenting name that is going to write bodice-clutching, tense semi-romantic vampire stories. There’s an expectation from readers that, you know, vampire authors are going to be female. There’s an expectation of readers that thriller authors—or at least the “good” ones—are going to be men. And then that ignores the non-binary spectrum entirely and then, what are the expectations there?   There are very cool names out there for some non-binary authors and I just think, “Wow! If I could go back and understand that gender was a spectrum not a binary, I might’ve picked a very different pen name.”     [18:43]    K: Yeah, and so that’s actually a good point. So you’re getting ready, you decided you’re gonna use a pen name. You’re getting ready to choose one. We talked a little bit before about branding and it is something to consider. Look, if you’re gonna be writing hard military science fiction, Florence Lilac deForest is probably not the best name to start writing that under. Now—   R: Although it would stand out in the field of military sci-fi, but…   K: That will certainly stand out, but emulating that is marketing at that point. Working on a pen name that you think is going to appeal to your readership. There’s nothing wrong with that.   R: If you think about it like the packaging on a box, you know, if you’re going to buy a microwave, you expect the microwave brand name is going to be of a certain ilk. You expect that the—just like there are cover expectations in genre—you expect that there’s gonna be  a photo of a microwave on the box. There are expectations and those expectations are because human brains are designed to put things into categories very quickly. So you wanna help other brains put you into the correct category. And that’s why you choose a name that matches a category, rather than going with it and hoping for the best.   K: Yeah, exactly. It’s unfortunate, but as Rekka mentioned there are some inherent biases in our brains and, you know, one of the most famous ones, J.K. Rowling. She does not actually have a middle name. Her name is Joanne Rowling and they told her, “Listen, we don’t want people to know you’re a woman.” And she said, “Okay, I can’t just be J. Rowling,” so she took K for Katherine, from her mom’s name and made it J.K. Rowling as, you know, things like George R.R. Martin. And J.R.R. Tolkein. And I think that’s a holdover from how letters in authorship used to be addressed. Used to cite off your first initial and your last name. Like, “Your Obedient Servant ___”.   So, is that a shitty, unfortunate thing about society? Yes. Absolutely. But would J.K. Rowling have been as successful as she ended up being if everyone knew she was a woman from the offset? Who knows! You know, Harry Potter came out before the advent of the internet. That said, there’s a giant fricken About the Author in the back, so.   R: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the story—I know when Oprah picked it up for the book club, the story of J.K. Rowling writing these things on deli napkins and reading it to her kids every night because they wanted a story, and then turning it into a book eventually, became part of the romance of why people flocked to J.K. Rowling as a personality and not just to the books. That’s part of the brand, though, is this rags-to-riches story.   K: That said, there are also cases of famous authors writing under pen names because they maybe want to try something new. So, like, J.K. Rowling—   R: Hey! Yeah, I was gonna say a J.K. Rowling story again.   K: J.K. Rowling published under Robert Galbraith, was the author name they used for the murder mystery novel she put out. Stephen King has written under a couple pen names. One of the more famous ones is Richard Bachman.   R: Mhm.   K: I do not know what the significance of that name is. Isaac Asimov wrote under Paul French. These were—I don’t wanna call them side projects, but they were different from things that they were known for writing, and wanted them to stand on their own merit.   R: Right. Michael Crichton also had a couple of pseudonyms.    K: Yes, yep. What does that mean, in terms of legality with an author? Now, again, in the age of the internet this is a little different because if you start digging around, looking for Richard Bachman, and this book. Through the availability of information, you’re probably gonna be able to figure out that it’s Stephen King.   R: But you have to be interested in Richard Bachman enough in the first place.    K: Yes! Yeah.   R: It’s not like you’re gonna search for Richard Bachman and the first site that pops up is gonna be Stephen King’s. I mean, that was the whole point was to not show up as Stephen King. So Stephen King’s not gonna make it easy for you to figure it out, unless he decides to debut. Like, “Oh, by the way, pulling back the curtain, that was me.”   K: Yeah, you’d really have to dig in with that. So, Rekka, how about copywriting pen names?   R: Well, so. You can’t—there’s a whole bunch of issues over trademarking names, anyway, but J.K. Rowling is bound to have that name trademarked. If not by her, then by her publisher.    K: Well also because it’s a fake name that is not her real name.   R: Right, so there may be a J.K. Rowling out there, though. That doesn’t automatically mean that person is going to be sued for signing their bank checks.   K: Or if they write, writing under that name.   R: Right, you cannot stop them from using their legal name. But—   K: Now, if your name is John Smith and you decide you’re gonna start publishing books under J.K. Rowling, you’re gonna have an issue.   R: Now you’ve got a problem.   K: Yeah. Because what you’re doing there is using a trademark to attempt to deceive people into thinking that this was written by J.K. Rowling.   R: That is something that J.K. Rowling and her lawyers are going to have to come after you for. And when I  say ‘going to have to’ what I mean is, if you register a trademark you have to defend it in order to maintain it. We’ve talked about this before. So, she’s going to have to come after you and find out, is that really your name? And if it is, how much money do I have to pay you to write under a different name, please?   K: By the way, it probably won’t even be J.K. Rowling that comes after you—   R: Oh, yeah, it’ll be lawyers.   K: Her publisher’s gonna get to you before she personally—   R: They’re gonna find you first, yeah.   K: —gets involved in this because it’s branding. That name is a commodity at this point.   R: Yes. That name has value to it that is separate, sort of, from the IP that she has created.   K: Now, that said, let’s go back to our other example, Stephen King. Stephen King is a much more common name. I know a Stephen King! I know Stephen Kings, a father and son, who are Stephen King!   So if they decided: hey I’m gonna write a book and publish it. There really isn’t anything that actual author Stephen King can do about it because you can’t stop someone from using your name. Now, as Rekka said, maybe you’re offered some incentive to publish under a pen name.   R: In which case, hey, not a bad deal! Maybe consider it.   K: Now, here’s the thing. I imagine Stephen King does not care that much. Stephen King’s publishers are going to care a lot.   R: Right, right.   K: So, now… how about just some other random person’s name. Let’s say I wanted to start publishing books under Rekka Jay.   R: I mean, I—Well, I can’t say I don’t publish books under Rekka Jay. There is one book out there with my name on the cover, of Rekka Jay. So I might ask you to not. But I don’t think I have a strong enough case to stop you.   K: Yeah, so there’s some weird legal issues that come into play here. So let’s say I wanted to start writing books and I’m gonna publish them under… I don’t know, Colin’s fair game. Let’s say I’m write books under Colin Coyle. Colin would have real, legal reason and recourse to stop me from doing that. He would have an interest in saying, “Kaelyn, we own a business together. We work together. We publish books together. I don’t want people thinking that this is me writing these books.”   That’s where all of this gets a little gray. But, as a general rule, using the names of people that you actually know is probably something to avoid.   R: I mean, the same can be said for using them for character names in your books. You just don’t wanna! This is just muddy water that you are gonna find yourself lost in.   K: Right, hold on, I gotta email an author real quick because I told him to change the names of two of his characters to Rekka. Both of them.   R, laughing: Both of them in the same book? Are they love interests, I hope?   K, laughing: Both of them are—Well, they are now.   R: But, yeah. You don’t wanna—just don’t mess with people you know. Because we don’t know how relationships are going to evolve over the years. This might be something—even if the person doesn’t care, you may just end up regretting someday. This person may end up making you grind your teeth in annoyance—   K: Now, forever.   R: —and then you’ve gotta go back to your books and those characters are named for this person, or you’ve used that pen name for your professional work. And you’re like, “Now I’m reminded of this person that I no longer want anything to do with.” To that point, some people choose pen names if they are married, just in case the marriage ever doesn’t end well. Or there’s another reason to change the legal name. If you separate your pen name from your legal name, you can detach yourself from some of these relationship issues.   K: Now, that said, here’s another really good reason to not use a pen name. If you are writing negative things about people.   R: Oh, yeah.   K: Here’s the thing, a pen name does not protect you from defaming someone.   R: No, there’s no legal protection from any laws that you break.   K: So, if you’re going, “Well, I’m gonna write a bunch of nasty things about this person, so I’m gonna write it under a fake name.”  First of all, you suck.    [R laughs]   Look, if you don’t have the guts to say negative things in public under your own name, then you probably have no business saying them. Whistleblowers are obviously a different story, but we’re not talking about that here. We’re talking about published stories.    R: We’re talking about trolls.   K: Well, we’re talking about reasons you’d wanna use it professionally for—   R: Well, okay, but to be mean to other people is not a professional reason.   K: Yes, exactly. Writing under a pen name will not protect you from defamation and slander charges. Slander is very hard to prove in the U.S., in the U.K. it’s not as hard, for instance. And there have been some pretty famous cases of internationals being taken to court in the U.K. for slander and defamation charges. A pen name does not protect you from that.   A pen name, and I can’t believe I have to say this, but this is something that I kept coming across when doing some research for this. A pen name does not protect you from having to pay taxes!   R: Oh, yes, please don’t think that there’s any reason to not behave like a normal citizen, when you have a pen name.   K: There is, in some corners of the internet—and I did find this mostly in bizarre, fringe-libertarian groups, that would come into discussions and say this—some people, for some reason, think that if you write under a pen name that means that, that person does not legally exist and therefore cannot be taxed.    R, exasperate: That’s… a theory.   K: Yeah, so this is wrong for a few reasons. One of which is, when you write a book under a pen name, you still have to sign a contract when you get it published. And you have to sign your legal name to that contract.   R: And if you’re self-publishing, the same is true for when you register the copyright.   K: Exactly, yeah.   R: And also for setting up your payment account through the various distributors, et cetera. People are gonna know your real name, so as soon as you have to write that out, it has to match your bank account. Like, have a care that this is gonna come back to you.   K: Yeah, so there’s no such thing as a pen name that just exists in a vacuum where there is no possible way to trace this back to you. The only circumstances under which I can imagine that happening are if you create a manuscript, mail it to a publisher, or I don’t know, an article getting published in a newspaper, and want nothing back in return for it. You want no money, you want no attention—   R: Or if you write the thing, sign a different name, bury it in a time capsule, and never admit. And then in 500 years someone finds it, thinks you’re genius, but doesn’t know who you were. But that’s not the kind of career most of us are aiming for.   K: Yeah, if you wanna get paid for your work, you’re going to have to associate—   R: Admit who you are so they can pay you.    K, laughing: That’s exactly… that’s my life. Just having to admit to people who I am.   R: Kaelyn it’s time to admit who you are.   K: I’m gonna have to figure that out and then I’ll get back to you. So, one last thing and, again, I can’t believe I need to say this, but apparently I do. Writing under a pen name also does not help you avoid breach of contract.   R: Noo.   K: This one’s a little less… less.. Maybe there’s a little bit—   R: It depends on how the contract’s written!   K: ...Yes. Then the taxes one. You have to pay taxes no matter what, okay? There’s no escaping taxes. But writing under a pen name does not absolve you of contractual obligations to other books. Now, there can be things written into your contract that say, “You will provide to us three science fiction books.” And let’s say you suddenly really wanna write a nonfiction military history of the Civil War.   R: You can write that!   K: You can write that.   R: The publisher doesn’t want it! They put it in their contract, they want the science fiction books.   K: Yeah, and all contracts are structured differently. Maybe you have a time frame, maybe it’s, “We get to publish the next three books of whatever you generate.”  So, you know, if you switch from military sci-fi to Civil War military history, it doesn’t matter if you’re writing that under a pen name now. They still get that.   R: Yeah.   [33:56] K: So this isn’t, again, you’re not creating a new person here. There is not now—   R: This is not your Get out of Jail Free Card to change your name.    K: Yeah, there is not now a legal entity that exists under this separate name that you created for yourself. There is no person there. It’s just another version of you.   R, laughing: Just like there’s not, not a person, there’s also not a person. Just to be clear.   K: It’s all very existential. There’s a lot of layers here.   R: So, I mean, don’t try to get out of trouble or get out of a contract you don’t like, or anything like that by changing your pen name. That’s not going to work. There are better reasons to have a pen name or not. And some people might start writing under their real name, or might start writing under a pen name and then switch to their real name. There’s also the possibility that later in life you change your mind and then all your books, again this is like Michael Crichton, get rereleased under the more popular name, either posthumously or not, because there’s a better chance that they’ll reach the audience that you’d like. I mean, he wrote in college under a pen name because he didn’t want his professors to think he had too much free time and give him more work.   K: Yeah.   R: Later in life, they changed, they re-released those books under his Michael Crichton name and that was so that people who had already read Jurassic Park and Congo and Andromeda Strain would be like, “Oh my gosh! I thought I’d never get another story from Michael Crichton, but even though he’s dead, there are ten more books I’ve never read of his!” Turns out, you can’t really go back. They were his first books and they read like them. They were not great. But, boy was I excited to think that there were more of them.   So, there’s no final answer in your writing career. You can change it at any time. And some people do choose to rebrand if the, you know, first trilogy they released just kinda didn’t make the splash that they hoped it did. Then, maybe, their publisher drops them. They get picked up by a new publisher. That new publisher may be like, “Hey! Would you consider a new pen name so we can launch you as a debut?” Because there’s a certain amount of excitement, especially in YA, the debut break-through novel is a big deal and that’s what everybody wants, is to discover the next new voice. That next new voice may have already been writing for ten or twenty years. I mean, they keep saying every overnight success is an author who’s been working at this for at least ten years.    K: Yeah. Again, just remember when you’re doing this. You’re not creating a new person. So, yes, you may be creating a new debut author personality. But this is not one of your characters, this is still you, the writer, the person.   R: Oh right, yes. So don’t cosplay as your writer.   K: Yeah, and—   R: Okay, I should actually retract that because Gail Carriger kind of does cosplay as her author self. Which is just to say that she has a visual brand, and when she goes out to conventions she’s going to dress the way that you would expect to see her at conventions. That’s different from writing a backstory for your pen name and then play-acting and half of these things are actually lies about you. If you try to convince someone—    K: Yeah, and—   R: The idea being that you want to be authentic so your readers can connect with you.   K: Do not create a character for yourself to make yourself seem more legitimate. If you’re writing a book in which the main character is a doctor and there’s a lot of medical science and medical science fiction things in there, do not pretend you’re a doctor so that people look and go, “Oh! This person came from a place of real experience!” You’re not creating, again, you’re not creating a fictitious person here.   R: Right. And don’t use it to misrepresent any part of yourself, except for your name.   K: Yeah, exactly. And, look, names are powerful things. There’s a lot of cultures around the world and through history where you maybe didn’t tell people your real name all the time because then they could use it against you.   R: Right. A name has power.   K: Yeah, a name does have power.    R: And for that reason, you may want to change the name that you were born with—not for escaping magical curses and stuff, but you may just—   K: Maybe escaping your family.   R: Yeah. But you may also just not really be totally in love with your name. And so that is a perfectly legitimate reason to just pick a different name. It might be unique, it might be all the things you want. It might be easy to remember, easy to spell, unique enough to come up in search results the way you want. It might even match your genre. But maybe you just don’t like the name. You could change it.    K: Well, I mean, I’ll use me as an example again. In publishing, I think Kaelyn’s a great first name to have. It works. In my professional life, sometimes, it feels a little immature.    R: Right.   K: I wouldn’t change it, it’s my name. I do like my first name.   R: It hasn’t held you back. Or do you feel like it might have?   K: Well, sometimes—and that’s the thing, sometimes I wonder. Now, one of the things I will say about my name is people look at it and frequently read ‘Katelyn’.    R: Right.   K: Very quickly. I—We always had a joke at my job when we’d go out, if we were going out to pick up lunch and you’d tell the people your name, I’d always give them my middle name which is Elizabeth. Because if I gave them Kaelyn, there was no way they were gonna write it down correctly—   R: Or say it correctly in that context, yeah.     K: And then whoever was reading it later was gonna then further butcher whatever they wrote down. So I’d be standing there and the guy would be standing with my sandwich going, “Uh, Carol? Kaylete? Colin?”   R: A-ha! So you are Colin, after all.   K: Oh, what was more of a “KA-lyn.”   R: Oh, okay.   K: So, I do wonder sometimes if that, it does—Now, as I’m solidly in my mid-thirties, I do wonder if it sounds like a younger person’s name. Because I do know some other Kaelyns, they’re all a lot younger than me.    R: Okay. Well there is the generational thing, where every generation has its popular name. I feel like when I was growing up, everyone was named Melissa or Amanda. And so, two years later, if you had that name it was a ‘mature’ name because that was the previous ones. But a couple years past that and it’s like a weird, old, funky name. And then it comes around again.   But, you know, these things—especially when you’re choosing a name, because you get to choose one. All of a sudden you go down rabbit holes of things to think about, all this kind of stuff.   K: Oh, god yeah. You could.   R: You can just close your eyes and be like, “What sounds good? What are letters I like? How do I string them together? Who cares if it’s actually a name?” Although, if you do make up a word, make sure you Google it to make sure it doesn’t mean something awful or sacred to a culture somewhere that you didn’t even consider.   K: So, I will say pen names I’ve made up. I have gone on Wikipedia or This Day in History and found famous people that were born or died or did something significant on my birthday.    R: Okay. Or you can pick the first day of your endeavor or something, the day you finished your draft. Stuff like that.   K: Yeah, and come up with some names that way. I’ve also taken my name and what it translates to in Gaelic, in Irish, and then picked other names—   R: With the same meaning.   K: —from other, yeah, other languages with the same meaning. That were kind of… you know what’s funny is they all kind of sound similar to Kaelyn!   R: I was gonna say. You could also do the Tom Riddle thing and just go for an anagram.   K: I have one of those. It was not easy to come up with.   R: Yeah, it depends on the selection of letters you start with.   K: Yeah, yeah. So, look, there’s lots of different ways to pick one, especially if you want it to be significant or meaningful to you. But if you’re doing it, as we said at the beginning of the episode, from an author perspective, keep in mind that you are going to be using this to sell your book.   R: Right.   [42:25]   K: And it may not be what you want to hear, but branding and planning accordingly is only going to help you sell the book.   R: Yep, yep. Meeting reader expectations. I gotta say. If you’re gonna write sci-fi, you don’t want a name that sounds like you’re a romance author.    K: Yeah. So maybe you loved your grandmother to death and she was just this beautiful, wonderful woman who encouraged you and helped you to get your start writing and so you want to honor her and make your pen name [in a v. French accent] Eleanor de Fleur.   R: Mhm.   K: That’s probably not the best name to write science fiction under.   R: Right, right. You don’t want anything that sounds too cursive. Like, it needs to be written in some sort of cursive calligraphy. Just think of the fonts faces and think of how cool the name will look written in those font faces, as opposed to what the name’s screaming out for.   K: If you’re mentally pronouncing anything with a French accent like I just did, that’s maybe not the direction—   R: Hey! There are decent French science fiction authors out there.   K: Oh, absolutely! But, you know—   R: But they all use pen names!   K, laughing: That’s because French is a very confusing language. You get words with like ten letters in them and you only pronounce four.   R: Yeah. And speaking of confusing, there’s also the pen name for joint-author endeavours.    K: Oh, yeah! That’s another good reason to use a pen name is collaboration.   R: Yeah, so maybe you don’t want both names on the cover. You’d rather just silo it and write, especially if you plan to continue this together, write with one new pen name that you pick together.   K: Yeah.   R: Then, be prepared if you are entering into a contract with a traditional publisher, that they might actually push back on your pen name. For the reasons that we’ve talked about, they may say, “This doesn’t really fit the genre. Can we fiddle with it?” or “Hey, let’s just use your real name.” I have a friend who had a pen name and when she got picked up, the publisher was just like, “Nah, we just wanna use your real name, it’s way more unique.” So…   K: And they might push back for the opposite of the reason I stated earlier. Maybe you’re writing military science fiction and you were a pilot in the Air Force for a long time. They’re gonna say, “No, we want people to look this up and see that you’re writing about stuff you know.” Like, your credentials lend themselves to your success at that point.   R: Mhm.   K: So, yeah, I mean publishers always have an opinion about everything. So, don’t think your name was gonna be—they even will have an opinion about your name.   R: They absolutely will. Although, you may be able to make a case for it. Colin did ask, like, “Are you sure you don’t wanna write as Rekka Jay?” I was like, “Well, no? I have a pen name, thank you.” I had a reason. And, you know, he was fine with it. It wasn’t like it doesn’t sound like a science fiction author’s name. But he was like, “Rekka Jay’s a cool name, so…”   K: Rekka Jay is a cool name. That’s the thing.   R: But it was a matter of, like, I would rather keep it separate from when people are searching, that they’re gonna find something other than the Rekka Jay. That was my decision, but obviously I’m not using it to hide. It is literally SEO purposes. It’s like key words. I’m choosing the keywords that people are going to find me for.    K: Yup. Yeah, so, that’s pen names. If you’re gonna use one, make sure you use one that’s gonna be to your advantage.   R: Yup.   K: Whatever reason you have for using it, there’s no reason it can’t work for you.   R: And take the time and play around with a couple different ones. This is something that you’re going to have to live with for a while. It’s not choosing a box of cereal, it’s choosing the paint for your den wall. You know? So you want to really be okay with it, before you move ahead and commit to it.   K: Yep. Hey, if you, uh—Everyone Tweet at us what your favorite, weird pen name is that you’ve come across. Or the thing that you were most surprised by, to learn was not somebody’s actual name. I think mine was Anne Rice, mostly because then I found out her first name is actually Howard.    R: Yeah, that one’s just got, like. That’s gotta be a two-parter, as opposed to just, “Oh, that’s not your name? Oh, that’s a shame.”   K: Yeah. Or you can be like Ben Franklin and all you did was write to newspapers and pamphlets and stuff under different names. Let’s see, he had Richard Saunders for a certain personality. There was Constance Dogood, yeah, clearly fake names but the point was that he was writing to newspapers exalting revolutionary American ideas, and writing trying to appeal to a certain group of people.    R: Right. Saying the things that would make that group agree with him and to sway their opinion.   K: He was saying things that he wanted everyone to hear, but knew that they would hear it better, if you will, coming from Constance Dogood versus Benjamin Franklin.   R: Right.   K: Which was very smart and insightful, especially for the time. Although that was fairly commonplace back then, to uh…   R: Which is so bizarre to me because we think of our common news production situation as being less honest these days. But you go back and like, everybody’s always been writing in under fake names and all this kind of stuff. So I say it was a matter of ego, but it was more like, “You must listen to me! And I will make you listen to me by faking who I’m speaking as!”   K: Well, it’s the same way. He’s trying to appeal to a certain group of readership.   R: Yep. So, that’s what we’re telling you. Go out and make people listen to you by appealing to a certain group of readers that can connect with the name.    And, you know, it is ultimately up to you. There are pros and cons to both. Eventually, you know, your contracts might get more intricate and having a pen name might make them slightly more difficult, but you’re probably not writing them, so that probably isn’t going to, at least, create more work for you. Just, you know, you’ll have to be more careful about reading them. But I hope you’re careful about reading your contracts anyway!   K: Yes! READ YOUR CONTRACT. I’m going to make a mug.   R, laughing: How did we come back around to that?   K: We always come back around to it, because given the option I will always state: Read Your Contract.   R: Yeah. And so, yeah, thing to remember is that just writing under a pen name is not going to hide you from the world. It’s not going to protect you from legal issues. And it’s not going to make you impossible to find, it’s just a thing that you do. It puts up  a certain measure of distance from your legal name and day-to-day personality. But it doesn’t… I mean, eventually you probably are at least going to hint that it’s not your real name. It doesn’t mean that you, say, I’m coming out as my real name. It just means, you know, eventually it’s going to get awkward to keep pretending that that’s your real name.   But if you have the right person, or the wrong person, decide that they’re gonna come after you, it’s probably not going to be enough. Because they’re gonna know where to look.   K: Yeah, look, in this day and age of the internet, there’s—Unfortunately, there’s no hiding forever. If somebody wants to find you badly enough, they’re going to. But it’s okay! Because, as Rekka said, the point of your pen name should not be to hide. If it is, maybe consider publishing.   R: Yeah, becoming a public figure. Yeah, it’s sad to say that you just can’t be an anonymous writer and collect your writing check because in this day and age, people feel like they’re paying for access to you as well.   K: Yeah, yeah. You are your writing. You are your brand. It’s, you know, go back and listen to our social media episode. We talk quite a lot about that. But pen names, they’re fun. Grab one, if you feel like it.   R: Yeah! And you don’t have to commit to it. You can still play around with just coming up with names. You might find one and be like, “I’m gonna save that. I’m gonna use that someday.” But you can relaunch your career at any point with a pen name, so if you’re happy or you’ve already started writing under one name, you don’t have to switch it if you come up with another good one. I mean, it can just be a character name. So, it’s up to you. If you come up with too many good names, maybe just use your real name and leave the good name creations to the characters in your books.   But if you find one of these reasons we’ve mentioned resonates with you, then that might be a good reason to try it. And if you aren’t published yet, it’s pretty simple to change your name at this point.   K: Yep.   R: Just change the name that you put on the byline in your next submission and you’re on your way.   K: Yup. Yeah, so, that’s pen names.   R: That’s, I think, everything we have to say about them.    K: So, um, as always. Thank you for listening. We hope, I guess, by the time this comes out… I don’t know, maybe quarantining, social distancing may start being lifted?   R: As we record this, more Starbucks stores have opened.   K: Okay.   R: I’m not sure that’s wise, but that’s what’s happening.   K: Well, we’ll go by the Starbucks metric, certainly.   R: I did hear that Disney Springs will start, I think, opening some stores. So Disney’s coming back. That’s a very telling metric.   K: Well, yeah. But the parks are not gonna open till next year, I understand.   R: So that’s… that they are even thinking about opening Disney Springs which can also be as crowded as a park sometimes. That’s pretty telling.   K: Well, we’ll go by the Starbucks metric. Society is measured based on what Starbucks is doing.   R, skeptical: Yeah… I don’t know how I feel about that.   K, laughing: Look, there’s a sad and uncomfortable truth in life that we need to face, Rekka, and that is that many people are entirely dependent on coffee in order to function as human beings.    R: I know you’re aiming that at me, but I’ll have you know that with my radiation treatment, I haven’t really been wanting coffee lately. So, uh, I don’t even know who I am anymore.   K: Oh, I can see. You’ve got a tea bag in that mug. Wow. Welcome to—   R: It’s also a throat coat because I’m gonna start having a sore throat with the radiation as well. There’s my little update, so if you were wondering how the cancer treatment’s going. I’m in good spirits, but I am ready to be done with radiation and on the other side of it and back to drinking coffee, hopefully. Although I don’t know if I will ever taste it the same again, based on the nerves they’re killing.   K: I have a feeling you and coffee will find your way back to each other.   R: One hopes. Actually, you know, if I had to choose between tasting coffee and tasting rib-eye, I think I would probably go for the rib-eye.   K: Well I knew that, yeah. I mean, yeah.   R: There’s more nutrition in rib-eye than coffee. And, you know, coffee only gets you so far. [long pause] I can’t believe I just said that. Who am I?    K, laughing: Well, you’re R.J. Theodore.   R: Oh, right! That person can drink tea and not eat steak every night and be perfectly happy.   K: Yeah, yeah. That’s what’s going on there. So, thanks everyone for listening! As always, you can find us on the socials.   R: That’s @wmbcast on Twitter and Instagram, and we are also at Patreon.com/wmbcast, where we would absolutely love your support if you’re able to. If you aren’t able to, what really helps us is to share our episodes with a friend who might find the content interesting, or just leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. That would be super helpful.   K, robotic: Feed the algorithm, people!   R: That is the one that really, really warms our dark hearts on a cold night. So, if you could do that, we’d really appreciate it. And we will talk to you on social, or we will talk to you in two weeks!   K: Stay safe, everyone!   [outro music plays]

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we have another vintage episode from Rekka's previous podcast, The Hybrid Author.  Rekka sat down with author Jennifer Mace to talk about how you deal with all of those loose ends and dangling plots while finishing your story and the answer is both straightforward and awesome: Murderboards.  We really don't want to give too much away here because this episode is just that awesome, so give it a listen and get ready to add a giant post-it covered bulletin board to your life! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and a maybe a story about when you once had to take one of your darlings out behind the chemical shed.  We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast You can (and should) check out Macey on Twitter @englishmace and check out her Hugo-nominated podcast 'Be the Serpent'. Episode 37: Jennifer Mace and Murderboards transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   K: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. My name’s Kaelyn Considine, I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.   R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.    K: So this is another throwback episode, a throwback to even before We Make Books. This is another—what do we call this? A relaunch? A re-release?   R: Yeah, we just wanna make sure this episode’s out there where people can access it because it comes up every now and again on Twitter, people asking a certain author how they go through the process of creating an outline for their novels. And the person that I interview in this episode, Jennifer Mace, who goes by Macey, always has this great process and, rather than force her to explain it over and over again, I wanted to make sure that, since the Hybrid Author episodes are no longer available, easily, to find that there was a way for people to get this information and so, I will continue to relaunch this interview no matter how many podcasts it takes.   K: So this is an episode, as Rekka said, sat down and talked with Jennifer Mace, goes by Macey, fantastic author, fantastic person. One of the cohost of the Be the Serpent podcast, the Hugo nominated Be the Serpent podcast—   R: Twice now!   K: Twice now!   R: Yes.   K: So, yeah, absolutely check that out. Fantastic show, fantastic people on it! But Macey has a really great and interesting take and perspective on how to plot and outline your book, and what you’re working on. It can be complicated. And it’s like, “Oh, I’ll just sit down and make an outline,” and then that even sounds easier than it actually turns out to be!    R: So, in this interview, I was using this to create a new outline, but what Macey often does is use this to fix drafts that she’s already started. So she uses this to track the outline of what has been written in a draft, and then use it to find imbalances, visually, and then adjust. So she hadn’t usually used it to create a new outline, but that’s what I was using it for in this interview.   K: Yeah. So, anyway, great episode. A lot of good information, especially if you are struggling with the pacing or story issues or even some story development issues, I think, in this. Macey’s technique can certainly help you. So, anyway, take a listen and enjoy!   [intro music plays]   R: We have, today, Jennifer Mace. We’ll call her Macey for the rest of the episode, but she writes under Jennifer Mace, so once you hear how brilliant she is you are going to want to go find her under the proper author name. I met Macey in 2017 at the Nebulas and we have held a light acquaintance over Twitter for about a year and a half, and then suddenly I got know Alex Rowland, who you’ve heard on the podcast before, and they story of, you know, congealed the whole thing together. As they do.   So, you’ve heard, as I mentioned, Alex Rowland who is one third of the perfect trifecta of the Be the Serpent podcast, who you should all have voted for, if you were capable of voting for a fancast, in any of the awards nominations going on right now and, in perpetuity, for people who come back to listen to this later.    Macey is, as I said, another third of that podcast. And, listening—I’ll have to get Freya on here at some point now. Now I can’t go on without completing the set. So, yes, you’re going to love Macey’s accent and you’re going to love what she has to tell you about today. Because I was gonna try to explain this on my own, but I think it’s really gonna be better that I have the professional here to tell you about it.   But first! Let’s talk about you! You write as Jennifer Mace.   M: I do!   R: But what do you write, how long have you been writing? What have you got in store for us?     M: Sure, so, I write mostly fantasy and I’ve been working on some short stories lately, but for a much longer time I’ve been a novelist. And I started writing longform by doing NaNoWriMo back in 2008 and I’ve completed eleven(?) NaNoWriMos. I’m doing another one right now, in fact!   R: Yes, you don’t follow any of the rules—   M: Nope.   R: —because you’re here in January, and you started—No, it’s February now, who am I?   M: Well, it’s February now!   R: You started a month of your own NaNoWriMo!   M: Yeah! I’m like—   R: Because you just couldn’t be bothered with that online community thing, right?   M: Well, I got a book to finish, you know? I’ve got my fake-married Renaissance lesbians to finally, finally convince that they actually like one another.   R: Yes, I’ve been seeing little clips of your, well, they’re fake-married, they’re not fake lesbians. Just to be clear where the commas fall in that description. So tell us a little bit, if you want, about this project? Or send readers after something else to check out?   M: Well, I think this one’s fairly representative because I am known for always writing queer women. It’s kind of a thing. So this project is called Catalyst and it’s a high fantasy set in Renaissance Naples that follows what happens when a punchy Disaster Bisexual blacksmith accidentally wifes a Slytherin duchal heir and many hijinks ensure. They’re about to foil a magical bioterrorist, international plot.   R: I am there for all of those things you just said! This is fantastic! Now, you are—remind me, because I know you have a book under contract, is that correct? Is that this one?   M: No, not yet.   R: Oh! Okay, I’m sorry.   M: So I have a Young Adult contemporary selkie YA that’s a queer selkie YA set in Edinburough that we’re actually just about to go out on sub with, with my agent again.   R: Oh, okay. That’s the one I’m thinking of, yes!   M: Yes! I love my selkie babies. Yeah.   R: All right, so if you’re a publisher and you’re hearing this, let me know if you’re interested and I will put you in touch with Macey.   M, pleased: Aww.   R: Or you can find Macey at the links we give you later. She is, I’ll tell you know, on Twitter @englishmace.   M: Yes.   R: So follow her because she has lots of awesome stuff to tell you all the time about various things.   M: And lots of photographs of me pulling faces at the weather.   R: Yes! Weather is a whole thing. So, you’ve got YA, you’ve got fantasy. And you said you have short stories?   M: Yes. I have a couple of short stories out. I have a piece called “Cradle of Vines” that’s out with Cast of Wonders and I have another piece called “Thou Shalt Be Free as Mountain Winds” that is currently in an anthology, but keep your eyes peeled because it may be forthcoming somewhere online very shortly.     R: Fantastic! So I will get those links from you and put them in the show notes so people can go find whichever ones are available online now and links to anthologies, et cetera, for purchase.   M: Absolutely.   R: So, aside from queer women and disaster everything, what would you say is the direction that your writing normally takes you? Everyone’s got a thing.   M: Hmm. I did figure out that I accidentally always have magically transformed characters. I love me a selkie. I love me a kelpie. I love magical tattoos and people grafting on wings and all sorts of cool things. I think the short story that is easiest to find involves a small girl deciding to turn into a plant.   R: Oh, fantastic. And you are known a bit for love of plant knowledge.   M: Just… just a little bit.   R: Just a little bit. So that’s more of something you can look forward to on Twitter. I won’t let her go off in that direction too much, except when she starts talking about the process and how things grow as stories.   M, laughs: I promise not to overly abuse that metaphor. I know a lot of craft books really dig hard on the story-is-growth and story-is-seed idea. But, I will resist.   R: Well, you almost go in the other direction because the process you created that we are going to talk about today is called murderboarding.    M: Haa! In my defense, I did not name it that. In my anti-defense, I did post a picture that looked exactly like one of those serial killer boards that you see on all of the NCIS and CSI TV shows.    R: Mhm.   M: Like striiing and targets and pins and dripping blood—there was no dripping blood, I promise.   R: Well, maybe in the future.   M: There we go, goals! It’s important to have goals.   R: Well, if you’re holding the tacks wrong, then you’re bored.   M: I have stabbed myself with the map pins on several occasions.   R: Alright, so, we’ve teased this enough. Why don’t we get into this. WHat is murderboarding? Why do you use it? And why did it make everything so much easier?   M: So I am an inveterate pantser. I had a chat with my agent recently. I sent her the first act of Catalyst a year ago. And she was like, “It’s so well put together!” And I’m like, “I have no idea what happens next!”   R, giggles: That sounds very familiar.   M: Yees! And she’s like, “How are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Stop.” So, what generally happens for my process is that I will cough up a book over the course of maybe three months of intensive writing. I’ll do a couple of NaNoWriMos back-to-back or something like that. And I will have 70 to 100 thousand words of book. And then I’ll be like, “This is made of lots of pieces, which of them go where and why?”    R: Mhm.   [10:13] M: So I tried, when I was editing Hagstone—which is my previous book—to figure out how to piece it together using Scrivener or using spreadsheets or just using my computer in general. What I found for me is that I spend so much of my time on computers that it’s kind of a tired method of thinking for me?   R: Sure, in fact, I’m experiencing myself. And the reason, as I mentioned, that I brought you on  is because I am going through the process of murderboarding, only from the opposite direction. But the habit of being on a computer and the computer screen, you do things the same way because you’ve created a streamlined process for how things work in your brain, related to interacting with the computer.   M: Yeah.   R: So you’re not looking at things in a different way when you do things the same way every time. So that’s been my exact experience. I’ve always outlined the same way, but I’ve never written the third book in a trilogy before and I sort of felt like something had to change because I’ve always written toward some nebulous future ending, but never toward a specific goal.   M: Right.   R: And now I’m in need of a way that I can change the way I think about things because I need to: one, get over myself, because of course I’ve got two books and I’m like, “These are locked in! What the Hell do I do now?” You know? I know there’s an ending. I kinda know what it’s gonna be but I don’t know how to get there.   M: It’s kinda like the difference between setting out on a road trip and setting out to go to a place.   R: Yes! Yes.   M: Right? You know where you need to be. So, my idea when I was starting the murderboarding stuff was, I have a lot of friends who love plotting on note cards and that’s fairly common. But for me, I can’t keep track of the order. I want to see a shape. I’m very visual. So what I did, and how the murderboarding process works—which is a very grand way of saying I really wanted to stab some things. Basically, you break up your book into whatever pieces make sense for you. For me, I use chapters. If you really like using scenes and don’t have too many scenes, that might work, too.   So I broke it up into chapters and I wrote on a little piece of card, just a very brief summary. Enough to remind me of what was in that chapter, and then I laid them all out in order, in their acts, in the four quartile structure that works well for me. And I kind of pinned them on a board so I could see them all in one place, with lots of space around them to add more detail. And then, once you have everything kind of situated, I start asking myself, “What am I trying to do in this edit?” What am I trying to highlight or rearrange or make sure makes sense.   So the first time that I was going through with Hagstone, one of the main thread of Hagstone is a bunch of interpersonal relationships that the main character kind of discovers themselves through. So, I took a color of map pin and I stuck red map pins in every chapter where Graham, one of the other characters who’s important shows up. I stuck another color of purple in every one where Viv, who is a romantic interest, shows up. And then you can take a step back from the board and look at it and see these patterns of color and see where you have frontloaded or forgotten an entire character, if the character pass is what you’re trying to do.   R: Clumps and gaps.   M: Exactly! And, on a later one, when I was trying to figure out a balance between the magical and mundane worlds, I went through and I tagged every chapter that was set in the magical world and saw that I had a big gap in the middle and there was one scene in there that really didn’t have to be in a mundane setting, so I just lifted it and moved it to a  magical one and everything balances better.   R: Yes. And in this—when you say balance, you know, generally we’re thinking pacing and all these other terms that we’ve been taught, in terms of a long narrative. But when you’re looking at it on like a 24 x 36 corkboard which is how you set this up—and we should get into a little bit more of the physical set-up, since this is an audio podcast—   M, laughing: You mean I can’t just gesture and everyone will understand me?   R: I mean you can, you can, but we’re just gonna have to—I’ll illustrate it later or something I suppose. It’ll be stick figures of Macey’s arms just in the air, flailing.   M: There we go.   R: Okay, so, when you’re looking at it on a 24 x 36 board, everything’s within, say, 18 inches of everything else, and suddenly you’re not just trying to remember in Chapter 12, now that I’m in Chapter 36, have I remembered to include this character anywhere else in the book?   M: Mhm!   R: So, and you mentioned the notecards thing, and people who listened to the last episode will know that I just tried notecards for the first time, too! And I always avoided it because I was not a fan of this concept of these loose sheets of paper and one, laying them out seemed like the best way to trigger anxiety—   M: Oh, yeah!   R: And then walking over them. No, it was too stressful. But I was able to do it in my new office because it’s a very confined space, no one else is gonna go in there if I don’t want them to, and it has a hardwood floor.   M: Oh, nice.   R: I think the last time I tried it, it was a carpeted floor and I think that makes a huge difference because you can’t just lay the cards where you want them on a carpet floor. So, I’m trying all sorts of new things. So, now that I’m already willing to look into the physical, now I’m looking at Macey’s Twitter threads from a few months ago about murderboards and I’m going, “Okay, so if I just chop this up into smaller pieces and get sharp things and get some string, I can do this. And maybe it would help me.”    You use it, Macey, to look backward at a plot that you’ve pantsed.   M: Right.   R: And I’m doing it exactly the opposite, to not pants a book, because I’m on a short timeline, and to do it from the ground up. Where I don’t exactly know the details of the book, I don’t know what each scene is going to contain, and I’m trying to build these things from nothing. So let’s—what I always do when I outline is to write down everything I know about the story. So now I’m writing down everything I know about the story on these tiny little cards and I’m putting them in columns where they fall in the story.   So, as you mentioned, it’s the 25 percentile structure, so Act One is the first column, Act Two there’s a build-up and even more build-up in the middle for your next two columns, and then Act Three, your climax and your denouement come in column four. So as I’m writing down all these things I know, I’m putting them approximately where in the story I think they’re going to happen. And then, what I start to see, is I”ve got the denouement locked in, but I don’t know anything else. And, of course, I’ve got the starting point because I’ve just finished the sequel that comes before this new book.   M: But there’s this whole, like, Fog of War in the middle section.   R: It’s a very foggy spot in the middle. So, yes, in these four columns, immediately, I could see that I needed to build out the flesh of a full plot versus just: get them straight from A to B. I cannot do that because that is not a book.   M: No.   R: So, when you look at your four columns, you’re doing something similar but you have all the pieces, you’re just moving them around. Whereas I’m filling them in. So, comment on how you decide what goes where and, if you have gaps where you see, literally, a gap in front of you. Whereas, I had a chasm. So speak to that. From either side of the process.   M: Sure. So, one of the things that I find really helps me, from having this all laid out in a physical way, is that I can look at the proportions of my story in a way that I can’t get a sense for when I’m writing a list. So one of the ways that—And I mean, I do plot a little bit, right? I will have maybe twelve bullet points of what I know happens in a book. And the ones that are near to where I’m writing right now will be pretty good and the ones that are further out will just be like, “And they foil a plot of some kind??? Maybe stabbing??”    R: Because I need them to!   M: Question mark. So, when you’re weaving together enough plots to make a novel. You’ll generally have more than one, and you may have one that’s the main plot and others are the subplots. But I like to think about it as a series of sine waves that are interacting. One is going up and another is going down. So when you’re trying to fill the middle of a book, particularly, if I know that these three things have to happen to advance the main plot, and this one has to be roughly at the midpoint and that one has to be at the 22-percent-through-the-book mark because it has to feed into the swap between Act One and Act Two.    I can put all of those in the right position on my board, based on the proportions and I can kind of tell myself when I’m writing, “Oh, this needs to be within that chapter.” And then, conversely, when I’ve done the writing I can see, on my board, whether those plots are kind of clustered in the wrong places and whether I can rearrange scenes to do that. But I know, in the past, I have—the last time I edited Hagstone, no two times ago that I edited Hagstone, I took the entire third column and I reversed the order of all the chapters.   R, blinking: Okay. Because you saw something happening, in other words?   [19:46]  M: Yeah, because—and this was in part with the advice of my agent—the arc of one of the relationships was wrapping too late, and it gave it too much significance, when it needed to wrap earlier so that the character’s self-discovery took more of the weight, which was the actual weight of the book. And I did that by putting it all together like a puzzle, back on the whiteboard. So it’s kind of like what you were saying about how you plot. You know that you have these gaps here and you need to have something that goes into them. I had all of these pieces, but it was like a pile of Scrabble tiles.   R: Right, yeah. Absolutely. That’s very much what it feels like. That, or a five hundred piece puzzle. I walk by the board, where it’s sitting on a table, and all of a sudden I catch myself leaning over it like people who are on their way out the door, walking past a puzzle. Like, “OH! I know what I see there.”   M: Yeah!   R: What I’m finding, as I’m trying to fill in these gaps, is that I’ll start, on a separate sheet of paper, to just write down some notes of things I’m seeing. And by the time I’ve gotten a few lines into it, I’ve recognized that there’s a parallel that I can build into this book to the first book.    M: Nice.   R: So that it’s going to feel like this event is book-ending the entire trilogy. And these are the kinds of things that I very, seriously doubt that I would’ve caught on to if I were just writing everything I knew in Scrivener and then going between those and New, Return, and fill in something else.   M: It’s just too much information, is the thing. For me, when I’m looking at my Scrivener file and all of my worldbuilding folders and all of my character sheets, I can’t keep it in my head.   R: Mhm.   M: And I know more than I think I do, about these scenes and about these chapters. So when it’s really boiled down, and there’s nothing distracting me around it, I can remember those things. But when I’m looking straight at them, I can’t compare them to other things. There’s just too much going on.    R: Right. There’s also word phrasing that we’ve got, if we’re looking at our draft. You know, all of a sudden we’re in the weeds of: how is this paragraph structured? And we’ve forgotten to be watching the information that we’re communicated to the reader. We’re more concerned about how many times did I use the word “that” in that paragraph?   M: Oh god.   R: So, I wonder if there’s also something—and I’m sure you’ll agree—to the psychology of taking your scene and literally putting a pin in it, and sticking it to a board and saying you’re there.   M: Yeah.   R: Like, you’ve—we talk about using map tacks and I will link to Amazon for the best set of map tacks I was able to find, 15 glorious colors, and a set of flags as well. [M laughs]   Just in case you’re tracking more things. But actually, and I’ll come back to this in a second, when you are taking a piece of metal with a pointy tip and you’re sticking it through the paper, you are making a mental decision.   M: You’re making a commitment, right? And I find this particularly, because I’m doing this at the edit phase, the first thing I will do is go through and decorate and understand my chapters, and say, “Oh, this chapter has lots of magic in it!” or “This chapter is the one with the Guild plotline, versus this one is the Espionage in the Church plotline,” but—   R: And when you say decorate are you referring to the colors of the pins?   M: Yes, so I’m referring to the color of the pins. So,, like, you might use a colored sticker in a planner? On the pinboard you use these map pins. But once I’ve done all of that, I then make an edit plan. For me, that means adding more little note cards in handwriting next to the typed, neat chapter headings. And every time I pin one of those in place, I’m saying that I’ve decided to make this change to my book.    R: Mhm. And it’s kind of empowering.    M: Yeah! It really is. And any time that I’m not sure what I’m doing, or I’m not sure what has to happen next, I can go back and look at my board and be like, “Oh! I pinned that here, that’s the next thing to do. Okay.”   R: Yeah. The amount of decisions that I’ve made just by looking at this board are impressing even me because a week ago I still wasn’t even sure where this story was going to end, and now I have all these decisions. Not only that, but, like I said, I’ve closed openings that I set up two books ago without even saying, “I want to do it in a way that parallels this,” or “I want to do it in a way that satisfies this.” And suddenly it’s paralleling and it’s satisfying and it’s visibly in front of me that I’ve done this and, like you said, you go back and you see that you stuck a piece of metal through that paper and you committed.    M: Yeah!   R: And it’s really satisfying to do. And it’s not just satisfying because it’s called a murderboard, but—   M, laughing: That’s a large part of it.   R: Yeah, it does help.   M: I think it’s also kind of like seeing your city on the street level and then seeing your city from a plane as you take off. Right?   R: Yeah.   M: They’re different things, and you need both of them, but when you’re seeing your city from however many miles above, you can see, “Oh, this is the pattern of the streets, this is where that park looks like that park.” One of the things we haven’t mentioned yet that I love is using string to tie things together. Physically tie them together.   R: Mhm.   M: So when I’m focusing on a particular plot line or trying to add a new plot, one of the things I’ll do is go through, make all of my notes, and thread this new plot through the whole novel which is really how I think about it. Like embroidery. But then I take a piece of string, and I wrap it around the first of those edits and I then, in turn, take it through every pin that is connecting that plotline together. And then I can see, on my book, the path that the plot takes through my novel.   R: Okay.   M: Which is super satisfying.   R: Yeah, no doubt! So, I have a question about that! You referred to sine waves before.   M: Yes.   R: Are you placing things on your board in the order that they happened, or are you placing them in a position that is relative, say, to an emotional arc or to a plot arc?   M: I’m always using word count as my measurement. So, I almost never plot things based on timeline. If we’re having flashbacks, if we’re having characters with overlapping points of view, to me, in the reader’s mind, those happen after one another on the timeline and that’s really what I’m looking for, is the reader’s experience. That’s what I’m trying to create.   R: So in the order that you present it to the reader.   M: Mhm, exactly. And in the amount of text.   R: Okay, so word count is a fantastic way to use—that’s a great metric to use. So, you would say, the first quarter, if it’s 25,000 words, the top is word one and the bottom is word 25, 000 and then the second column, the top, is 25,001—   M: Yup.   R: —and the bottom is 50 thousand. Okay, that’s fantastic. That’s really straightforward. From my point of view, I’m trying to figure out where these things—not only where do they go in the story, but what position on the board is going to signify what’s happening. For instance, right now, because I’m still sort of planning things out, things are grouped by POV. So I’ve got a cluster of things that all happen to the POV A in Act One, but it’s not necessarily the order that I’m going to present it to the reader, word-wise. So that was my next step, was to figure out how to make this a chronological reflection of how the story’s going to go.   M: Right. And I think for me that that’s crucial. The book that I’m working on right now is dual point of view and I got kinda weird with it because I wasn’t intending for it to be. So the first act is all one point of view, and then it kind of splits off into the second one afterwards. But it’s been very important to inweave those chapters on the board, as well as in the book because it doesn’t matter to the reader that one character has spent 20,000 words working on this guild plotline. If the reader is getting 5,000 words, every 5,000 words swapping back and forth with another character who’s doing the church plotline, it feels to the reader like they’ve been getting a mix of things happening. It doesn’t feel to the reader like they’ve been isolated and doing only one plot.   R: Sure. I was even thinking of that. I’m like, “Oh, I have four plotlines, I have four quarters of the board…” and then my concern was if I did take the string and lead it from one plot point to the next, it’s not going to be great for the reader if it jumps and it takes 25,000 words to get back to that next plotline, so that the string goes directly across the board, as we’ve been describing it. That means the reader’s forgotten, probably, by the time that plot point comes up again.    So the mix of POVs, to me, is important. Although I know there are plenty of books that do a part and the entire act is one character’s and then maybe there’s some sort of event that helps you orient yourself to where you are in the timeline of things, like a parade or some kind of holiday or a meteor crashing or whatever. But until you get to that moment, you don’t know where you are in relation to the other characters that you’ve already been visiting.   M: I have far too much fun using this kind of point of view structure and decision-making as another metaphor within the book, right? So this book, Catalyst, is a fake-marriage book and so we start with a single character who has a goal and decides that they are going to take this step of committing to this other person, but not really, just to reach their goal. And so we start in one, very selfish point of view. And then, once they join together, we get a bit of the other person’s point of view, but it’s still very disjointed. And then, as they become more in sync and paying attention to one another and actually acting as partners, we start to get a real balance of points of view.   R: Mhm. So you’re playing with the tropes from two directions.   M: Yeah, exactly, but also the nature of the relationship is reflected in the structure of the book.   R: Right, right. That’s awesome. I’m looking forward to reading this book!   [M cackles]   R: I’m just trying to—Oh, and then you said you decorate your board when you first lay all your cards out. You’ll start putting the pins in that reflect everything. So you’re pretty certain—I mean, obviously, you start this as a revision, but if you stick eight pins in a card, if you need to move that card, you’ve got to pull out eight pins.   M: Oh, yeah.   R: So is there, do you have any advice for how deep into the weeds of identifying things should someone go. Or should they say, “Okay, right now I’m tracking this and there’s four aspects of that. I’m gonna stick to these four pins,” or if you have fifteen pins *cough cough* should you just assign them all and stick them all in there?   M: I would not assign them all because the goal with the board is you’re trying to have something you can hold in your head.   R: Mhm.   M: I think, for me, the point at which I can’t remember which pin means what, means I’ve used too many pins.   R, laughing: Fair enough, okay.   M: Like if I need a map or a key for myself, then that’s no good. Also, you may have fifteen pins, how many of those colors can you tell apart?   R: Right, yes. I remember you mentioning that on Twitter once and I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna have to check that before I start using them.” But then I was thinking, am I going to figure out how to lock these into a position on the board through the story, chronologically, if I can’t see what the trails are. But if I pin everything, fifteen pins on one card, I’m gonna hate myself if I have to move it, because it’s basically perforated at this point.   M: Right. Yep. But also, I feel like authors track a lot of detail when they’re writing. But readers are not going to track that level of detail. Readers are not going to notice fifteen levels of symbolism and different narratives and all of the different plotlines and subplots as distinct.   R: This is why writers drink.    M: Yeah, right? So, I feel like the exercise of boiling it down to the half-dozen things that are really important to you, at least in this round of revisions, or this round of drafting, is actually a really good exercise on its own. Like, what are the things you really want to get across?   R: Okay, so pulling back from… yeah.   M: Yeah, exactly. What’s the impact? Because then you can have other things in there, but you can kind of have made the decision in advance, like we were saying earlier, by committing. Other pieces of the book are there to serve the ones that you decided are the important bits.   R: Mhm.   M: Right? They’re there to echo and reflect and enhance.   R: Right. Don’t tell those other pieces of the book, but they’re not as important.   M: Yeah! Right? I mean, we joke, but it’s kinda true. You can’t do everything in every book.    R: Right. Okay. Now she’s getting harsh, folks.   M, meekly: I’m sorry!   R: I’m uncomfortable now. No, no this is fantastic because it is something where, as you mentioned, we get super wound up, super deep in the weeds to bring it back to plants. When we are finished with a draft and looking back, or in my case, we’ve got two books of details behind us, and we’re looking to wrap it up and stick the landing on a series, too much of this becomes precious to us.   M: Right.   R: And on this board, even though I got the biggest corkboard that I could find at Staples, almost immediately, as I started to write things on it, I was running out of room.   M: Yeah.   R: And I think that’s the most important thing. One, buy a couple extra decks of index cards that you’re gonna cut up into tiny pieces, but, two, be ready to go through this process of realizing that I can’t hold everything on this board that I think is important to this story.   M: Right. And you can’t hold it in your head! I mean, they’re almost more pneumonic devices than they are actual edit notes, right? If I was to give my board to someone who knows my writing style and be like, “Please go implement this edit on my book,” they’d be like, “What the fuck are you talking about? That’s nonsense.” Right? It just doesn’t work.   R: Yeah, yeah. And I like to tease my family members as I’m walking around with this enormous board that I can’t hide and that I refuse to drape over. And I’m like, “Watch out, there’s spoilers on here!” But the fact is, if anyone looked at this, they would probably have zero clue what’s going on, based on what we’re doing. So this is very much a shorthand and I just love how suddenly I’ve gone from being the person who does everything, absolutely everything, in Scrivener to now I’ve got this physical object.    And I said this last week, I was carrying around these index cards. I had one of those index card boxes and it was in my pocket of my sweatshirt all the time and it was like an object of power. It was showing that I was doing the thing and it really changed the way that I went through that process. And now I’m doing that again. And, so—okay, we’ve talked about setting up the board in four columns. To the nitty-gritty of that, you have just a thumbtack in the top and bottom and you run a string around it to create the column.   M: Yeah.   R: Note to everyone else: save yourself the trouble, artist’s tape is not going to stick to corkboard very well. [M laughs] Especially if the weather changes on you and the humidity and suddenly you’ve got a curly thing. Okay. Covered that.   M: When it doubt, string. Always string.    R: String is very well-behaved unless the person who was previously in charge of your embroidery floss was not very good about separating it into individual strands and you have lots of knots.   M: Oh noo.   R: Yeah, that was actually me. So I had a tangle of string and uncurling artists’ tape and I got through it somehow.   M: We’re very proud.   R: It was, yes, it was worth the struggle because now I’m on this side of it. So then you have index cards, I don’t know how big yours are? It looked like sometimes you had computer printouts of your scenes, to start with?   M: Yeah, so, I have for Hagstone—which is the one that I’ve revised six times now—I have a Google doc that’s just a single letter-sized piece of paper that I print out with all of my chapters on it. And that’s the size. So it’s like a quarter of the width of landscape mode of that piece of paper, is the size of my corkboard pieces. I’m actually looking behind me because I have my corkboard propped up against a wall over there, that you can’t see.    R: Right.   M: And I’m trying to remember, “How big are those?” They’re like maybe three inches wide.   R: Okay, okay. So depending on the size of your corkboard, obviously, you are going to have room—   M: Yeah, I mean generally the idea is what you want is the chapter or scene summaries to be no more than half the width of the column. You wanna have enough space to add notes and revision notes or other such things, if you’re plotting.   R: Right. So whatever your corkboard is: four columns; your cards that you’re going to pin to it are effectively one eighth of the total width of the board, if you can fit two to a column as Macey just said; and then if you do not have tight, neat handwriting you are going to have to get really good at shorthand because now as you look at the pieces that you’ve printed out from your spreadsheet, or wrote very neatly, very carefully, now you’re going to see where the gaps are. Then what goes in the second column?   M: The second column is the first half of Act Two. Oh!   R: Oh, I’m sorry, I mean the second half of the first column.    M: Well, so for me my first half is what is in each chapter. The next one is basically edits and changes that I need to make. So once I’ve inventoried what I have—So the first step of this operation is: what is actually in my book?   R: So if you open the draft that you just finished, or the revision that you just finished—   M: Mhm! Literally what’s there. And then—   R: —without any changes.   M: Without any changes. Just what exists. And then the next step is, “Okay, well, what do I need to do about that?” What needs to change or what needs to be brought out, maybe not changed but just enhanced in some way. Though I could see that if you were doing this as a plotting thing,you might have whatever core scenes, like action plot stuff, you might have that in your first column. In the second column you might have Character Notes and Echoes Back to the First Book and other, like, detailed pieces you need to remember to fit in there, but aren’t really defining those chapters.   R: Okay. Alright, cool. I’m cheating here. I’m using Macey to work out my own plot. So you have these notes for just space purposes, generally? Because it’s not gonna fit on the piece that you printed out from your spreadsheet?   M: Um, well—   R: Would you say that’s roughly fair?   M: Also for movability. And I can change my mind easily. I find that having them as separate units—I’ll have like a separate piece of paper for every different planned edit that I have so that I can decide that I don’t like one and remove it—   R: And just tear it off and it’s not half of a sheet that you already put there.   M: Yeah, exactly. You can do very similar things with a whiteboard, it’s just a lot easier to accidentally wipe things off on a whiteboard.   R, laughing: Yes.   M: Whereas with a pinboard it’s a lot harder to discombobulate.    R: Mhm. Okay, so, if you were to decide, for example, that Chapter 2 belongs after the existing Chapter 8, would you write that and put it to the right of your existing Chapter 2, or would you pick up the pin from Chapter 2 and rearrange the chapters?    M: Let’s see. What I would probably do in practice is put another piece next to the existing Chapter 2, or even on top of it with a big X mark on it.   R: Mhm.   M: Put the bits of Chapter 2 that I still wanted, after Chapter 8, because it’s gonna have to change a bunch. Write the scenes, the plot elements that I want to bring over on their own little pieces, and put them between Chapter 8 and Chapter 9 as a new chapter, and put a big piece of paper in the first column between Chapter 8 and 9 called Chapter 8.5.   R: Okay, fair enough.   M: There needs to be a new chapter here, you’ll name it when you get there.   R: And you do make a good point that, in this example, Chapter 2 probably still has some pretty structural worldbuilding going on, so you’re probably not going to be able to delete all of Chapter 2, you’re going to have to work that information into either Chapter 1 or Chapter 3… now Chapter 2, renamed. So that’s a good thing to—   [40:29] M: And when I’m doing that with the five chapters that I reorganized in Hagstone, I definitely did have to break the chapters up and some pieces of each chapter went to different places. So what I did for that rearrangement was, one the left-hand side I had the existing chapters and then on the second column, on the right, I put where the scenes would be and then I tied strings from each chapter to where those scenes were going, so I could see how the pieces crossed.   R: Oh, okay. Right, again, we have this ability to get layered and really deep into the physicality of how these things are gonna connect.   M: Mhm!   R: So, I haven’t gotten to the point where I’m hooking string between things yet on my board and now you’ve got me super excited.   M: I love the string!   R: And I also have a lot of, again, embroidery thread is great because it comes in so many colors. So I’ve got a string for each color in my map pins. Not even on purpose, just because I used to do cross-stitch. But now I have the embroidery floss, so I would recommend getting a starter-kit of embroidery floss if you don’t have a collection already because you can get a bunch of different colors. And, as Macey said, don’t put fifteen pins in your card right away. So you don’t, maybe, need fifteen colors of thread. So, do you do this—do you go through this process, for the example of character arcs, will you figure out what you need to do and then take out the different pins that you’ve got and then put in another set for a different problem that you’re going solve?   M: I generally do all of the problems I’m trying to tackle in a big revision round at once. And so, generally, each time I am convinced that that will be the last revision round.   R, laughing: Of course!   M: It’s all there is! But by the time that I need to do it for the next round of problems—this is not something, or an amount of effort, that you would do for a small edit. This is like a big revision. Some chapters will be getting rewritten, a lot of things will be changing, maybe characters will go away. Otherwise it’s not worth the effort. So, if I need to do another round of revision after that, the first step, the survey-what-you-have-in-your-book is going to be incorrect. Because it’s all changed.   R: Right.   M: So you have to start that again. And this is why I advise keeping your chapter outline in a document online because then you can kind of tweak that in place without having to rewrite it from scratch, which saves a lot of time. But you will have to tweak it. You will have to say, “Okay, well, this chapter once was like that, but now it’s like this!”   R: That definitely helps. I’m wondering, Scrivener has like an index card view. I wonder, does it export into any sort of spreadsheet from that? I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m gonna have to look into that because that’d be pretty handy. Because you can have a little note card-size worth—I mean, honestly, you could write the entire novel in the note card and they would let you, but there’s a certain amount that it will show on the screen if you’re looking in the index card view, or in the outliner view, so if we could export that, then this would maybe help with that.    So, I was just trying to think of—so I’ve worked with it a little bit, so I have little bit of understanding, and we’ve tackled my questions that I would have for you. I just want to make sure that we’re leaving the listener with the full view of this process. So, you’ve mentioned that when your pins are all in place, then you’ll start to fill in the lines between them and tie things through and see—does the way that the string cross ever seem to create any patterns for you, between different interaction sections? Does it reveal anything or is it just too much of a mess and you can really only follow one string at a time?   M: Well, I don’t tend to use a ton of strings and I won’t use strings for everything. It’ll really be about the piece that I’m trying to trace through the whole book. One of the things that it does highlight, when you’re tying it, almost the action of tying it, will show you how frequently you’re using that plotline or not and show you where the gaps are. So that’s something I find really valuable. Another note that I realize I forgot to say explicitly: when I’m adding—so let’s go back to when I was having a problem where there were too many mundane settings in my book and too few magical settings.   R: Mhm.   M: So I chose the black pin for my main magical setting. I went through, put black pins in everything, I’m like “Oh, there’s a gap in the middle here! I’m going to move this scene to be in the magical setting.” I wrote myself a little note, I put it in the second column, and I used a black pin to pin it in place because this is an edit that is about that setting. So you use the same color coding that you used for assessing your novel to annotate the edits and remind yourself of the purpose of those edits.   R: Okay. Great. So one thing that I have done in the past is use highlighter on cards, where I make changes and whether that change is related to a certain POV or maybe whether that change is related to setting, et cetera. Do you ever find yourself making edits about, say, magic and realizing that it also ties up a character arc situation. Would you put two pins in that edit, then?   M: Definitely, yeah. I would put two pins in that. And I prefer using the pins to colors on my note cards just because you can change them. And I can change my mind about whether I wanted that edit to actually have that character in it, or whether that spoils it in a second thought.   R: Right, so if Joe is represented by a green pin and you decide that Joe doesn’t belong in that scene, you take the green pin out and you don’t have to write a whole new card because you used green highlighter on the card.   M: Exactly.   R: Perfect. It’s funny, we’re talking about committing, but then we’re also talking about, “But you can change it!!”   M: Yeah, I feel like decisions are not permanent, right? Hm. How to put that better. There is a—   R: That there’s a gradient of decisions.   M: —strength to making a decision, but there’s also a strength to reevaluating that decision, right? I mean, it’s all the process that works for you in the end.    R: Right, right. So anyone who is listening to this and it’s making them want to try this process, there is no rulebook. I mean, maybe that will be a release that Macey out with someday.   M: Oh God!   R: But there’s no hard-and-fast set of rules for exactly how this works, or else you’re doing it wrong. It’s going to be: is this tool useful for you?   M: Exactly.   R: Is it almost useful for you? What can you change that will make it the tool you need right now? And that might change every time you go back in to use it. Or you may, you know, use it once, it helps tremendously, but then next time something else works. I mean, this whole thing is all about the impermanence of our writing process. And I’ve talked before, I think a couple episodes ago, about how it’s okay if your writing process changes.   M: Mhm.   R: Like, there’s a lot of stigma around: are you writing correctly? Is your process—does it match Stephen King’s? Does it match Delila S. Dawson’s? Does it match N.K. Jemisin’s? It doesn’t matter because yours is interacting with your brain, not that author’s brain. So, as people, I think we all can agree we change pretty frequently. Something that we liked two weeks ago, we’re sick of today. Something that has always worked for us can’t get us through a block. So, maybe as important as finding a system that works for you, and trying something new, is also: be willing to let go of a tool if it’s not working for you one time.   M: It’s like standing on the deck of a ship, right? You’ve gotta keep your knees loose, you’ve gotta adjust your stance, otherwise you’ll get thrown overboard.   R: Yes, yes. And keep your eyes on the horizon or you’ll get a tummy ache.   M: There we go!     R: Yes, absolutely. Alright, so is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t really covered about this process, or any notes you thought of before and skipped over because you do it so automatically now?   M: Um, make sure to have a good cup of tea with you while you’re doing it? It takes a while. It takes longer than you think.   R: And maybe one of those little hotplates you can get from the electronics gift shop where it keeps your tea warm for you, while you’re working on this. Because you look up after a while and you’ve been tying a lot of knots.   M: If you have a kotatsu, then I am jealous and you should use it.   R: Yes, okay. Absolutely. Oh my gosh, that’s very true. Cats, I will warn you, do not like when you are sitting on the floor and your lap is smaller than usual. But, I don’t know, maybe feed them and then hurry. Before they come back to get you.   All right, this is awesome. I know people are going to want to take a look at the murderboard examples that you’ve put on Twitter, so I’m going to find permalinks to those threads or maybe steal the graphics just in case. And put that in the show notes so people can find their way to you. And I’m sure this is going to be something that at least a few of our listeners are going to want to try because I put this on Instagram and I had people that I didn’t even know were writers telling me that they wanted to try this!    Even John Adamus, who’s been on the show before, was my first editor for my series and he even approved and he never hits Like on anything so—it is John Adamus Approved,f or anyone keeping track.   M: There we go!   R: So I know that we’re gonna get some great feedback from this and I will put your contact information, that you’re willing to share, in the show notes for anyone who wants to follow along and chat with you about murderboards, or maybe show you theirs once they try it out for the first time!   M: Absolutely!   R: Alright, so, if someone is looking for you can you let us know where to find you and, again, remind folks what they’ve got to look forward to from you as a writer.    M: Alright, sure! So you can find me most easily on Twitter as @englishmace and these days my most popular piece of output is my podcast, Be the Serpent, we did actually spend a whole episode a few months back talking about our process. The episode is called The Room Where It Happens because we are Hamilton nerds. We talked a little bit more about murderboarding there. And on the writing front, there will be more stories and more poems forthcoming, and I will post about them on Twitter when they exist!   R: I believe you! Alright, awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today, Macey!   M: Thank you for having me.   R: Thank you for creating this process because I know it’s helping me right now.   M: Well, I’m glad that more people can get some joy out of stabbing things.   R: And if anything is the takeaway from this episode, it’s please, go stab something. Not a person.    [outro swish]   R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram, or wmbcast.com! If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast.    If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast! You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend, who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast, too. Of course, you can always Retweet our episodes on Twitter.    Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.   [outro music plays] 

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we have a very special guest!  We were lucky enough to be able to sit down with author Scott Warren.  Scott is the author of the Union Earth Privateer series and the third and final book of the trilogy is being released the same day as this episode!  Full disclosure: Scott was the first author ever signed by Parvus Press and so it was extra awesome to be able to talk to him ahead of the release of the last book in his trilogy.  Scott is an all-around amazing and fascinating guy, so we were thrilled to be able to get his perspective and thoughts on developing a story past your original plan, writing from your own experience, and wrapping up a trilogy.  We had a great time talking with him and hope you enjoy listening! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the best bit alien weaponry you've imagined, or maybe actually invented.  You can trust us!  This a secure line and we pinky-promise that the Roswell guys will never know! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 36: Every Rivet in the Alien Railgun - Military Science Fiction with Scott Warren transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   K: Hi everyone! Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Kaelyn Considine, I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.   R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.   K: And today’s a big day for Parvus.   R: Yes! We, full disclosure, we are being very self-serving today and loving every minute of it! And hopefully you’ll love it, too.   K: Today is the launch of Where Vultures Dare the third and final book in the Union Earth Privateers series and thus the first completed trilogy published by Parvus Press! Oh, also, Scott Warren had something to do with this, I guess.   R: I, well, he can talk later. It’s just us now. We can—   K: It’s just us now. So today we had Scott Warren, author of the Union Earth Privateers series sit down with us to talk about—I mean, we talked about everything in this interview!   R: Yeah.   K: We had a great time talking to Scott, covered a range of topics from writing techniques to crafting action scenes to where he came up with the idea for the UEP series. It’s a fantastic interview, Scott is always a delight to talk to.   R: Yeah, and as a reader I really enjoyed Vick’s Vultures and To Fall Among Vultures and I’m just about to dig in because, of course, I have the inside scoop. I got an advance copy of Where Vultures Dare. I, of course, picked it up because I was interested in a small press, to see what they were all about, and I really enjoyed the first book and the second one went a direction I did not see coming, so it’s really great that Parvus was there to allow Scott to take it in a direction that military sci-fi might have said, “Um, actually, if you’re gonna follow the conventions, maybe don’t do this thing?” And I’m really excited to see where book three is gonna go.   K: Scott was the first author ever signed by Parvus Press, so we are very excited about the success and progress of all of our authors, but this is our first completed trilogy and this is Scott’s first completed trilogy, as an author as well. So big day all around!   Anyway, we had a great time talking to Scott and hopefully you have a great time listening to us talk to him.   R: Yep and because it’s June 2nd when we release this, that means book three is out on shelves. So you can go check out Where Vultures Dare and, if you haven’t already read Vick’s Vultures and To Fall Among Vultures, they are quick reads! They read very fast, in addition to not being big, door stopping tomes. So you could pick up all three and check them out in, probably, a span of a few days. Just tear through ‘em.   K: You won’t be able to put them down. Anyway, take a listen and enjoy, we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: Alright, well, I’m sure that’s all classified so we won’t ask you too much about that!   R: Which is to say that Kaelyn really wants to ask you about it.   S: You can ask me. I’d answer what I can.    K: I have a master’s degree in American military history, so I am—   S: Oh, you probably know more about my activities than I do.   K: Well, my focus was Vietnam, so.   R: Possibly not.   K: Wellllll, there’s debate over how much submarine activity there was during the Vietnam War. There’s some official numbers and then there’s some… speculative numbers.   S: Oh, I don’t actually have any information on that, unfortunately.   R: That’s the official line anyway.   K: That is exactly what he is supposed to say.   S: Yeah.   R: So we are talking today to Scott Warren, author of military science fiction series the Union Earth Privateers, and we are very excited to have him and we are celebrating with him because today his third book in the trilogy has just released. That is Where Vultures Dare. So, welcome Scott, and would you mind introducing yourself for our audience?   S: Thanks for having me, guys! I am Scott Warren, as you said I’m an author, I write both science fiction and fantasy. My sci-fi series is Union Earth Privateers, published under Parvus Press. Humans have just broken into the intergalactic scene and they’ve found it packed to the rafters. They’re kind of hopelessly outgunned. All of these alien races, every single one, is far more advanced than they are. So they developed a small, elite corps called the Union Earth Privateers, whose single directive is: go out and secure advanced technology through any means necessary.    Vick’s Vultures and its sequels follows one such privateer ship, captained by Victoria Marin, and they go around and they engage with aliens. They help them, they fight them, or they pick their bones in order to bring home technology.    R: So you don’t have history, personally, with spaceflight or salvaging alien technology, but you came to the Union Earth Privateers trilogy with a certain background that, I assume, did help you?   S: So the experience that feeds into Vick’s Vultures is kind of two-fold. The first is the submarine experience in the military. I spent about three and a half years in the military, and then after that I transitioned into civilian aviation. So the way that the space combat is written is kind of a blend of the two. It features a lot of the submarine warfare aspects of stealth and sensor readings, as well as the three-dimensional movement. And, as far as aviation goes, that’s where a lot of the nomenclature and the procedural stuff comes from. So when you see Victoria Marin engaging with other cultures, other militaries, most of the jargon and the lingo they use actually comes from the aviation world, not the military world.   R: And I think one of my favorite things from the first book was humans had this Boogeyman aspect to them because they used that submariner stealth and the other aliens had never seen their faces, they just knew that, if humans came, they were gonna come in through your portholes and take everything. That was a really neat aspect of it.   K: Military sci-fi, that’s a popular genre, to say the least, certainly amongst its fans. I would say it’s one of the most vivaciously consumed of a lot of science fiction and fantasy genres. What, particularly, drew you to writing that because it is a very competitive field to get into, and it’s very hard to write well. It’s interesting that you went from being a submariner to a civilian pilot. I don’t think you can have two more different trajectories there. But I think that, also, as you said, gave you a really interesting perspective to write about here. These stealth operations that the humans in the book are conducting versus being able to incorporate your knowledge of aviation.   S: Well, like you said, the military science fiction genre is huge and has very voracious readers, of which I am one. That was the biggest reason for wanting to write The Union Earth Privateers, is I’ve been reading military science fiction for a long time. I’m, specifically, a big fan of John Scalzi, I like H. Paul Honsigner and his Man of War series, which is also a submarines-in-space style book. But the competitiveness and the market and, really, whether or not I would be able to sell Vick’s Vultures at all didn’t weigh into the equation really at all. I was writing because I wanted a creative outlet. I was coming off of the Sorcerous Crimes Division, so I had just self-published my first fantasy novel and I decided, “Hey, I think I’ll take a try at sci-fi!”    R: And you’re a reader of both, though, right?   S: Yes, absolutely.   K: So, in Vick’s Vultures, and the setting of Union Earth Privateers, humanity’s not in great shape, as you said, at the beginning of this. We are a very small fish in what we are learning is an increasingly big pond, full of very carnivorous other fish. And there’s, instead of this humans going into space and learning and exploring, you have a very—I don’t wanna say more of a dark take on it, but it’s certainly not a very optimistic one. [laughs] Is that—where was that coming from in your writing? Is this what you envision if, you know, we do eventually encounter alien life, is this what you think we’re gonna find?   S: It’s not so much what I think we’re going to find, it’s that I’m a really big fan of the crowded galaxy philosophy, in terms of fiction. But most of the science fiction that I read, humans are usually on force parity with most of the aliens that they encounter, or it’s just hoo-rah, humans are the best forever and ever. I kind of wanted to explore that transitory period where humans get out and it’s not, “Oh, these guys have a similar level of weapons and technology.”    These guys are better than us in every way, so the only way we can survive is if they do not know we’re there. That sort of disparity in force has been explored quite a bit, but usually it’s in terms of aliens invading Earth, aliens invading human space. So the first contact is made by the aliens, and then it becomes a war for survival. I wanted this to kind of be exploring the, “Well how do we prevent a war for survival from happening?”   R: Right, so in your stories the aliens don’t even really know where Earth is or where the humans come from.   S: Mhm. You touched on the humans being kind of the Boogeymen and that was one of my guiding philosophies of that. I wanted humans to be these things that were only scary in the dark.   [10:05]   R: Right, and that was their technique for making sure that nobody messed with them because what else were they going to do? They couldn’t defend themselves against the bigger—the Big Three, as you call them in the books.   S: Right. When I designed most of the alien species in Vick’s Vultures, the kind of philosophy behind it was, well, most of these alien species have long-since settled their differences before they got into space, so they didn’t have the same infighting that humans did, that caused them to be militaristic throughout their existence. And that they’d also been in space for so long that they pretty much had lost their ability to go outside their ships and feel safe outside their ships. So humans were still the only ones using spacesuits and spacewalking. So it’s kind of an age of sail allegory where a surprising amount of sailors didn’t actually know how to swim—   R: Right.   K, laughing: Yeah, right? Yes.   S: —so they feared things in the water. The third aspect of the aliens is that their minds were so much more advanced that they just didn’t need to develop computer technology, so when humans come around with their little, dumb, smoothbrains they’ve been developing computer technology to do their thinking for them, to the point where it’s so advanced that it does things the aliens can’t really wrap their minds around.    K: One of the things that I, personally, really enjoyed about the series with the juxtaposition between the humans and the aliens, is that the humans—like, I get a little annoyed with a lot of science fiction where it is frequently, the aliens come to us first and then the scrappy humans have to come back and fight their way through and unify and, you know, we figure out water is their kryptonite or what have you.    But, what I did like about this was these things is, where we usually have this approach of like, “Oh, you humans, with this, this, and this.” It’s such a foreign concept to these aliens that we’re surprised that they are surprised by this, a little bit.This idea of: they don’t go out into space, they don’t use space suits. As you said, the sailors that can’t swim. So that was something that I really liked about how you differentiated humans versus the aliens in this. That they really have these fundamental differences in how they approach life and space, if you will.   R: But speaking of life in space, you have a lot of action scenes in Vick’s Vultures. That was something that we specifically wanted to talk about in this interview because action scenes are notoriously difficult to write. I don’t care if it’s a giant, massive space battle or if it’s a sword fight between two people in a desert. They’re very hard to write, and you do an incredible job of it while navigating a lot of elements and, as you had mentioned, kind of in the way that a submarine has more than forward and backward and up and down to move, there’s literally infinite directions when coordinating a space battle that objects can move in. Thereby making it even more complicated to keep track of things.   S: Mhm.   R: So how on Earth do you keep track of all these things?   S: Well, the first guiding light is obviously the Rule of Cool. I ignore all the potential things that would just end the scene in one line, so that I can write out an action scene. But when it comes to writing realistic space battles, it doesn’t really happen in science fiction. So, once you have that figured out, you’re kind of free to flub whatever you want.   K: Now, when you say—   S: This is gonna sound like I’m kind of a scam artist peddling snake oil, but really that’s all it is is writing action scenes in space, so far as ship to ship combat, is essentially selling your reader a pipedream.   K: Now when you say—because when you say writing realistic battles, there’s the how you really turn in space, kind of, component to this, and I apologize, I don’t know—I imagine submarines are somewhat of the same where you have to use pressure to force directional changes. In space, in order for, for instance, the space shuttle to turn, it has to release air to force it to do so at a 90 degree angle. Obviously, that’s not how these ships fight each other in space. So, physics is not a consideration for you, at all, when writing these?   S: Somewhat, it is, but very loosely. I mean, when it comes down to it, the best tactic is always gonna be the The Last Jedi, hit a ship with another ship at lightspeed tactic. Why would you never not-use that? Unfortunately, it’s kind of boring to read. So, mostly, I ignore the mechanics of how the ships move like they do. I’m more focused on the story of how some force is going to tackle some other force, based on the disparity in strength. So I’m a little bit closer to a Star Wars kind of ships fighting between each other.   K: So one of the things that I encounter a lot, as an editor, when dealing with any sort of action or combat scene is mapping and tracking all of the components of it. I can’t tell you how many times I get a draft from a writer and we go through this whole thing and I’m like, “Hang on a second, where’s this person? What were they doing the whole time?” and it’s very hard to block that, if you will. And I understand that that’s a phrase for the video component of this, but you kind of have to take it into consideration when writing, too. Where is everyone and how are they interacting? Action scenes are very difficult to write because of that. Because if there’s a fight going on, you can’t have one person that’s just standing there waiting for it to be over because you don’t know what to do with them.   S: Funny story about that, actually, and I’ll answer your question in a second. In the first draft of Where Vultures Dare, the squad that goes down onto the planet, and I’m gonna try and avoid spoilers too much, the small squad initially had another member, a new character that I had made, and by the time they got to that first action scene, I had completely forgotten that, that character even existed and he never shows up in the draft again.   [K laughs]   S: It is difficult to plot out the initial blocking of that action scene. Now, when you use that term, blocking, you say it’s a visual-focused term, and it is, and I also come from a visual art background as well. I still occasionally do illustration on the side, that was originally one of the things I wanted to be, before I joined the military. So when I do this writing, I actually take a very visual approach in two ways. Like you said, I block out all the big pieces first. I make sure the reader’s aware of them. And then I do what’s called working from big to small. So, when you’re painting or illustrating, you start with the biggest brush possible and work your way down. You don’t use a detailing brush until you absolutely need it. And I kind of take the same approach to writing action.    So the first thing I do is I work big to small, I make sure the audience is reading the broad strokes. Because our brains do a handy little thing where they’ll fill in the detail where there isn’t anything present. And the other aspect of writing action scenes is, when I’m writing one, I try and make sure that reading the scene takes exactly as long to read as it would to happen, if you were watching it in a movie.   K: That is such an important thing, I think, to me when writing and plotting action scenes. Authors tend to, and I completely understand why, get bogged down in description and not realize that the time that you’re taking to read this, this guy’s been stabbed to death six times already now.    S: Mhm.   K: In all the time that he’s sitting there describing the sword in the other person’s hand and the stance that he has and the dust clinging to his boots, he’s been dead for about ten minutes. I alway use, and Rekka’s gonna shoot me because I’ve been referencing a lot of Harry Potter things recently, but I always use the reference when, in the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry gets sucked through the portkey and ends up—and Cedric dies, and there’s this whole long scene—   R,  ironically: Spoilers for Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire—   [K and R laugh]   K: It’s your own fault if you haven’t read it at this point. Cedric dies, everyone! There’s this whole long, drawn out scene that I think, in the book, is about two and a half chapters from start to finish, with this whole process. And then I remember when I saw the movie and how quickly that happened!   S: It’s just a snap of the fingers and he’s gone and I loved that aspect of the movie.   K: I loved how fast that happened, that the whole point was that this was incredibly disorienting because this whole encounter, this death, this terrible realization, this shocking revelation of Voldemort is back, all happens in five minutes. And that’s why nobody realized Harry was even gone back at Hogwarts. So, I completely understand why you need to explain and flush these things out, it’s an entirely new setting that you have to describe. You have to establish the characters, you have to establish where they are and what they’re doing, but having that visual component to it eliminates all of the need for exposition there.    So, it’s a really hard thing to do in writing, taking these scenes where you have to set the scene, and still trying to get it to a reasonable amount of time that these actions could be transpiring over.   S: Mhm.   [20 :31]   R: One thing I always like to remind people is that you are a writer, you have control over everything that’s going on, that wouldn’t happen in real life. So you don’t have to describe a scene, you can start your action scene in a place that’s already been described in a quieter, more peaceful moment. Or you can keep in mind what Kaelyn’s saying and describe what the person needs to know in the moment of the action, which is: there’s a door over there and the floor is slippery. You don’t need a whole lot more than that. Or, it’s dark or whatever. That doesn’t take paragraphs, whereas if you feel like you need to get tactile with it and describe the stones’ texture, then that’s probably not something that a person’s going to realize until after the fact. They’re just trying to survive the moment. So big to small is good like that and it’s kind of the same thing that you’re saying. Get the big details and then you’ve placed the scene and you can get the smaller details as they become necessary, as the character is able to even recognize them. I mean—   S: Absolutely.   R: —it’s reasonable to assume that somebody looking at a sword is going to see SWORD, if the sword is drawn. As opposed to looking at the pommel and everything if the sword is sheathed and safe.   K: I always have a line I use that’s been dropped into many a manuscript that I’ve edited: human evolution was designed rather to react than to analyze. We don’t necessarily care what’s chasing us, we just know it’s getting closer and it has teeth. So, along those lines, how do you—you are in a genre where the fans of this really like and appreciate a lot of detail about the spaceship that’s attacking them. They want to hear all of the guns, all of the turrets, all of the engines and components to this. How do you avoid falling down that trap into—because I imagine from your side, and you write in a lot of detail and are clearly knowledgeable about this—how do you avoid falling into that trap?   S: The biggest thing for me is that the focus on combat, most of the combat in Vick’s Vultures is based around the same thing that submarine warfare is based around: a lack of full information. You’re working with very limited details on whatever enemy you’re fighting. So they might know that there’s something out there, but they can’t see what it is. And if they can’t see it, well then there’s no point in me describing it to the audience. Because at the end of the day, I’m writing in third person limited. The narration only knows what the characters know.   R: That is a good point, though, because we are so used to the Star Trek viewscreen and looking at the other ship and knowing as soon as it drops out of warp that it’s a Romulan ship versus a Klingon ship versus, you know, there’s something out there, we don’t know what it is. Okay, well it’s Romulan because they have the technology. But your characters are, sort of, in a submarine in terms of what they know about what’s going on around them and they need some kind of signal from the ship to recognize it, or to be sitting on the outside of the ship in one of their suits. But even then, there’s the realism of how far away is it? How much can you actually see if you’re looking directly at it. So, yeah, that’s a good point and that aids you in the genre, I think, because that adds to that realism that the readers expect.   S: Mhm. Kaelyn you mentioned that readers are very voracious for those details.   K: Yes, yes.   S: But I think a lot of them are also voracious for that level of grittiness and realism, and sometimes you can’t have one along with the other. And, in this case, I think they settle for the realism rather than the exploring every nut and rivet on an alien railgun.   K: I completely agree. I think there is—I don’t want to call it a trade-off, but there is this notion of—well, I’ll call it a trade-off!—trading one for the other. There’s a degree of suspense that you can entrench yourself in and use that as your high, if you will, in reading all of this versus getting to kind of sit and revel in the description of, as you said, every rivet in the alien railgun. Which is now going to be the name of another book that I want somebody to write. [laughs]   R: Well, you know what it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be all exposition, if you want that book.   K: Nah, it’s gonna be… we’re gonna make the, you know, one of those—remember Star Wars during the, when they put the prequels out they made those books that was like the pictorial guide to Star Wars? Well, we’ll do that for Vick’s Vultures. It’s gonna be a lot of black pages with vague shapes in the back of them.   S: And half the text blacked out and redacted.    K: Yes, exactly! Perfect. But, actually, speaking of blacked out text and redacted, this is not a series that is simply, hit-and-run stealth missions. There’s some political components, there’s some scheming, there’s other parts of this beyond just humans going into outer space and trying to further humans’ ability to exist in space. Vick and her team get into some nonsense.   S: As a rule, I tend to try and avoid political themes and huge political arcs in my books, simply because I don’t like reading them. But you can’t really have an interplanetary, sometimes diplomatic, directive or organization without touching on the politics. And so they not only get pulled by the human politics, but they get pulled by the alien politics as well. One of the things I always try and have in Vick’s Vultures, on multiple levels, is a trichotomy. So it’s not just good versus evil, it’s three opposing organizations that are each trying to further their own goals, usually at the expense of another. Sometimes those goals are political, sometimes they’re military, sometimes they’re survival.   K: And sometimes they’re a combination of all of them.   S: Mhm, absolutely.   K: They frequently overlap and motivate different components of what they’re trying to accomplish. So, I have to ask something because—and this is a little bit of, you know, how the sausage is made here—by the time I came on to Parvus Press, Vick’s Vultures had been out for, I guess, about a year at that point and Colin had sent me a copy when I was kind of auditioning, if you will, to be an editor. And I was shocked to realize that Vick was short for Victoria.    S: Mhm.   K: And that this was a woman. I have to, of course, ask—I mean, I love Vick as a character, I love all of the intricacies and nuance to her personality that you write in, but—women are not allowed on submarines.   S: They didn’t used to be. They are now.   K: Oh, they are now! Okay. Why, I have to ask, what made you write Vick as a woman?   S: So there’s three main reasons that I did that. The first one is this notion that male readers won’t read female main characters, so I kinda wanted to do a bait-and-switch like, “Oh, it’s called Vick’s Vultures, so obviously the main character is a guy named Vick!” And then if they don’t read too much into it, it’s like, “Ha! Gotcha!” You’re actually reading about a female character.    The second was I kind of wanted her to be the inverse of, you know, the classic male Han Solo? Where these male captains have, they do all these things that no reasonable, realistic person would do and then get rewarded for them. I kind of wanted to make Vick do those things and then everyone kind of call her out on it, her self-destructive tendencies getting her into trouble more than they get her out of it.    And then the third was that I wasn’t sure whether or not I could write a female character well, but coming off of Devil Bone, which is the first Sorcerous Crimes Division book, a couple fans pointed out to me how well the few female characters had been written. Specifically, there’s two main characters, not main characters, but side characters in Sorcerous Crimes Division that were female raiders. So they would go in with the raiding parties. One was a more leader archetypal mother-hen type and the other was basically a psychopath.    [R laughs]   S: But they were on the same side and people thought they were pretty realistic. So I thought maybe I’ll tackle writing a female main character for the next book. I enjoyed doing that so much that I ended up making one of the female characters also a POV character in the second Sorcerous Crimes Division book, as well. And she ended up being pretty much the fan favorite.   R: I mean—   K: That’s great.   R: Women kinda rock, don’t they?   K: I agree.   [30:16]   S, warily: Let me make sure my wife is not…   R: Wait, before you disagree with me, you mean? No.   K: I was gonna say, maybe this is what she should be hearing!   S: No, I just don’t want it to go to her head.   R: Ah, got it.   K: Ah, alright, fair enough. That’s fair.   S: Also, fun fact: she just finished reading Harry Potter for the first time this week. So—   K: What’d she think?    S: —she narrowly avoided the Goblet of Fire spoiler.   [R and K laugh]   K: See, there would have actually been someone out there who was—   R: I told you! I had to warn you about the spoilers, yeah.   K: I have very little sympathy, apologies to Scott’s wife, for people who are upset by fifteen-year-old spoilers at this point. But what did she think of the books? Just out of curiosity.   S: Uh, she liked them but she’s also very able to pick up on the things that are acceptable in Young Adult writing that maybe don’t so much fly for adults.   K: Well that’s a whole other conversation—   R, laughing: Yeah, I feel like our Patreon deserves Kaelyn’s Rant on Harry Potter and Kaelyn’s Rant on a couple other movies and book series.   K: I’ve got a few of them. It’s a—do not get me started on Game of Thrones. The last season of that. Poor Rekka, poor Rekka had me—   R: I saw it in real-time. I saw it happening. Kaelyn’s devolution into—   K: —madness!   R: Not even madness, just you… couldn’t even speak sometimes—    S: Right.     K: I…        R: —because you were so upset about the decisions made.    K: Rekka had the misfortune of being with me to watch the Battle of Winterfell and then also—   S, laughing: You mean listen to the Battle of Winterfell, right?   R: Yup.   K: Okay, well, here’s the thing: Rekka and her husband Matt should have a service where they go to people’s houses and fix their TVs for them because we could see everything perfectly watching that. So I don’t know what you guys did to your TV, I don’t know what setting you have it on, but we could see everything and then all of my friends are texting going, “Well I think they won. I don’t know, I can’t see anything!” and I was like, “Oh, really?” and I went back and watched it at home and I was like, “Oh, yeah, this is just a black screen with some shapes moving around in it. Oh, there’s fire. Okay, I see fire.”    And then Rekka, also, was sitting next to me when we watched the series finale at the Nebulas out in Los Angeles last year. Parvus and, mostly Colin, finagled a viewing—   R: Viewing party.   K: A viewing party. It was a lot of fun, but oh my goodness. That’s a—   S, a hero bringing it back on topic: Yeah, going into the launch of UEP #3, at least secure in the knowledge that hey! at least it won’t be the last Game of Thrones season. You know, the bar has been somewhat lowered.   K: So, speaking of that—   R: This does close off your trilogy, yeah.   K: Yeah! The trilogy’s wrapping up. How are ya feelin’?   S: I feel pretty good. You know, I’d actually set this book aside for I while. I wrote and published an entirely separate book in the time that this one was—I’d kind of gone through pretty much writing and editing on The Dragon’s Banker while Vick’s Vultures #3 was going through the editing and publishing process. And I don’t know how it is for other authors, but I actually tend to retain very little of a book that I’ve written once I move on to the next book. I forget character names, I forget plot points. All of that just gets flushed. Part of me thinks that’s a result from the studying tactics in the military and aviation where you cram and cram and cram and then knowledge dump immediately after the test.   But I can actually, I’m doing my final review of Vick’s #3 now and a lot of it going to be going through and almost looking at it with fresh eyes, as if it’s something that someone else wrote.    K: Well, we were gonna ask you some questions about resolving plot points, you know without spoiling anything, and completing this three-story arc but do you remember any of it? [bursts out laughing]   R: All right, so feel free, if you need to say “I don’t know that one” we’ll just cut the question like we never even asked.   S: Okay.   R: So you have three books out now that complete a trilogy. Did you see it as a three-book trilogy to start with? Did you have an arc in mind?   S: No, actually. When it started out Vick’s Vultures was not meant to be part of a trilogy, per se. I was thinking of it as more of a serialized thing where each book would be its—   R: Open-ended?   S: Mhm. It's its own separate, self-contained story. Neither one would really feed into the others. Once I had the first book out, I wanted it to be something that could absolutely stand on its own. You could read Vick’s Vultures as just Vick’s Vultures and then ignore the rest of the books and be perfectly happy and get a one hundred percent complete story. Because I didn’t know if there would be sequels, at that point. I was still a very new writer. I wasn’t super confident. I thought this is a good book, but I don’t know how many good books I have in me. What if I run out of ideas half-way through the next one? Six books later, that’s not a huge issue apparently.   K: I was gonna say, what is it with you authors and doubting your abilities to generate stories? That’s all you do!   R: Have you read the Goodreads reviews, Kaelyn? You know, if you’ve ever spent any time looking at other people’s reviews of books you think, “Wow! I could mess up in so many ways I didn’t even consider when I started writing!”   S: Mhmm.   K: Yeah, but those people don’t know what they’re talking about.   S: It helps that I’d committed pretty much every sin that I’ve railed against in Devil Bone, when I wrote my first book. So I was like, “Man, all these mistakes that I see other writers writing! I’m gonna avoid all of those!” And then I did ‘em anyway and I was like, “Oh, it’s because that’s the only way I know how to do it.” That’s what’s familiar.   K: Do you have more stories set in the UEP universe? Do you have other things you’d like to write here? You know, as you said, you saw this as kind of a serialized, ongoing collection of stories. Is that something down the road that you think you’d revisit at some point? And I’m not just asking this as your publisher!   [K and R laugh]   S: I would like to revisit it at some point. I didn’t leave open ends so much in Vick’s Vultures #3—    K: No, that’s kind of why I was asking. Yeah.   S: —but I did seed things that could be explored further, and there’s always other ships in the Union Earth Privateers. I purposefully made this big terrain, this big stretch of stars, the Orion’s Spur, which gets name-dropped constantly in the series. One to say, hey this is the humans’ limit. This is how far we can go because there’s basically a brick wall at each end of the Spur. And the other being like, hey! This is a big playground. You can go anywhere in this and we’ve only touched on a small fraction of it. And, essentially, the number of locations and the number of stories that can be told in that universe isn’t limited by what’s already been written because it’s not going off—this is kinda pulling back the veil a little bit—it’s not going off of real stars, it’s not really going off real systems. Everything’s being made up to serve the narrative. Everything is kind of what it needs to be to tell a good story.   So would I like to go back to it? Absolutely. Right now I’m on a little bit of a fantasy kick. Coming out of Dragon’s Banker I tried to start up a sci-fi novel, wasn’t really happy with it. I restarted it a couple times before saying, “I’m gonna put this back on the shelf for a little bit,” and kind of explore more the things that I explored in Dragon’s Banker with the slice-of-life fantasy, and then go back to maybe doing sci-fi after that, with maybe something either in the Vick’s universe or more esoteric. Kinda closer to something like grimdark 41st millennium, without name-dropping and having DCMA requests called on your podcast.   K: Now, it is interesting because I’ve obviously read UEP series and I did read Dragon’s Banker as well. These are very, very different books. Not only in terms of genre but in terms of, really, your writing style. Do you find it difficult to oscillate back and forth between sci-fi Scott Warren and fantasy Scott Warren?   S: That’s kind of a tricky question, but I like it. One thing to keep in mind is that between Union Earth Privateers and the Sorcerous Crimes Division is that the subject matter for the books, despite being fantasy and sci-fi, ultimately was very, very similar. They were both about elite, professional teams working together in an action-oriented environment. But one dealt with magic, the other dealt with aliens. But when you dig really deep into them, they have more similarities than they have differences.    When it went to Dragon’s Banker, it was a challenge to myself. I’d been writing very violent, very action-oriented books and I wanted to challenge myself to write a book with a true pacifist. Where the main character would not and could not resolve any of his conflicts through violence. I wanted to explore that theme, and I  wanted to explore a novel where lateral thinking was the key to completing all of his objectives. And that, really, he was completing a lot of his objectives just through struggling through his own personal problems and not even realizing that he was contributing, behind the scenes, to all of these conflicts he wasn’t really even aware that he was involved in. Which was a tricky plate to balance.   [40:48]    S: But you mentioned the style of the narration and the dialogue and everything being very different in Dragon’s Banker, and the fact is, writing Dragon’s Banker, my wife read that and once she finished, she put down the book and she looked and me and said, “You are Sailor Kelstern!” And I tried to argue and she said, “Don’t lie! I know you.”   [K and R laugh]   S: So, reading Dragon’s Banker is the closest you’ll get to an unfiltered view of my internal narration for my own life and my own thoughts. And the truth is, in real life I am not a violent or aggressive person at all. I’m the mastermind, I’m the plotter, the planner, and the schemer.   K: Yeah, because I remember reading Dragon’s Banker and I’m going, “Is this really Scott?” [laughs]   S: I mean, that did cause a little bit of friction, I know, in the publishing house because I think Colin was a little hesitant. Like, “Ooh, we have this military sci-fi writer who’s also trying to have us publish this,” and I ended up self-publishing Dragon’s Banker. Ultimately, I decided that was probably the right path for it to go.   K: Because you have—all of the science fiction books you’ve published have been with Parvus Press, but your fantasy books have been self-published. Do you find there’s a cross-over with your fans, that they follow you between these genres? Or do they tend to segregate based on what they like to read?   S: Honestly, I couldn’t say just because I don’t really have a large level of fan interaction.   K: Okay.   S: I’m not like a lot of authors who make a fan page or interface with their communities. I’m honestly not even really aware if I have a community or reader reviews.   K: I can tell you that Union Earth Privateers definitely has a community.   S: Mkay, so the closest I come is to looking at some of the reader reviews on Amazon and Goodreads. What I notice is usually, if the reviews namedrop another book that I’ve written, it is a namedrop of a book in the same genre. So if I had to hedge a guess, I would say that there is not that much genre crossover between my readers. And that might be, in part, because they are segregated in terms of Parvus taking one half of my library and self-publishing doing the other half of my library. Or it might be because there’s just a readership difference in sci-fi fans and fantasy fans. I honestly couldn’t say.   K: So, along those lines, you’ve kind of got a foot in two different worlds here, if you will. Where do you wanna focus next? Do you have a plan for what you’d like to do, if you wanna lean more into the fantasy side or the sci-fi side? Are you just gonna see what comes and what you feel like writing?   S: So, right now I am doing what I feel like writing. I am doing another slice-of-life fantasy that takes place in the same world as Dragon’s Banker and the Sorcerous Crimes Division, it’s more action-focused slice-of-life. I really wanted to get very out there with this one. I don’t have a title for it yet, but I will say that it has an undead protagonist—   K: Excellent.   S: —who is a traveling monster hunter for hire along the west coast of the continent that all these books take place in. And he has an apprentice who is a living human child, between the ages of eleven and fifteen. The main character literally does not know how old he is, and doesn’t care to. But the book kind of explores their traveling and their relationship and their role in the world. One of the biggest complaints with Dragon’s Banker was that the worldbuilding was a little weak, so I wanted to take this book and really delve in and say, “Hey! They’re travelling here, this is what it looks like, here’s the kind of creatures that live here and the people that live here.”   In the future, yes, I definitely want to return to sci-fi. With the fantasy side, I will probably maintain the self-publishing just because I enjoy that aspect of it. With the sci-fi, I had talked to Colin, he wanted a new military sci-fi and that was actually the working title of the book: New Military Sci-fi.   R: Hits the keywords!   K: Of course it was!   S: I wasn’t ready at the time. I had just come off writing back-to-back military sci-fi books and I was honestly a little burnt out at that point, I think, with writing Dragon’s Banker and the untitled monster slayer book. I’ll have created enough space to confidently return to military sci-fi for the purpose of writing military sci-fi. That was one of the big problems with it, is that when I was writing the book, I wasn’t writing it for myself, I was writing it for someone else. With art, as with writing that’s kind of when I start to encounter the mental blocks is when I stop writing for myself and start writing, well, I should write this because an audience will wanna read this. Or I should write this because a publisher will be interested in publishing this. And what I really need to do, and what really contributed to the charm and uniqueness of both Vick’s Vultures and the Sorcerous Crimes Division was I’m writing this because it’s something Scott Warren would write. Because it’s something that Scott Warren would want to read and because it’s something that doesn’t exist currently. It’s a new take on something.    So when I start trying to write to an audience or to a publisher, my whole process kinda breaks down and stalls. Once I get this fantasy flush through my system, I think I’ll be ready to return to military sci-fi and come up with something a little more unique. And I have two different manuscripts for military sci-fi that I was writing during this period of roadblocks that reached about 20,000 words and they had some really fun and interesting ideas4, some of which ended up being in these others books, but some of which really need to be, I think, explored and will be very fun to explore.    Unfortunately, one of the biggest ones, Martha Wells kind of beat me to the punch with a very recalcitrant AI character!   [R laughs]   And as much as I love Murderbot, I hate that it exists because it was very similar to a character that I was actively working on when All Systems Red came out.    R: Well, you know, there’s always something to be said for having a very successful copy book, too, so. You know, feed the people who want more of the recalcitrant AIs. I think that’s fair to say. But that’s good that you can recognize what it is about your writing process that works for you and notice when it starts to break down and see what the symptoms point to. I think writing for yourself is always the best advice for anyone who’s trying to be creative. It’s interesting that you’re big into self-publishing and not so big into write-to-market. I think that’s healthy.   K: Yeah.   S: Mhm. And hopefully that’s not too much nails on a chalkboard on the publishing side of the house!   K: No, no.   S: Because I also do love being a Parvus author.    K: Well we certainly love having you and Vick’s Vultures was the first book that Parvus ever put out and I know Colin is certainly not shy about saying it was a significant cornerstone—the keystone, if you will—to our early success in the publishing world.    We’ve covered a lot of topics, a whole range of things, is there anything that you could go back and tell yourself when you started all of this, or is there any just general advice you have for either people who are self-publishing or somebody who is trying really hard to work around a particularly tricky action scene, or anything that you wish you had known or could offer as advice to those listening?    S: Hm. So there are a couple pieces of advice that I would give to budding self-published authors. So, one thing that Parvus provided was an editor, which I think is crucial and it takes a lot off the pressure off me. When I initially got into self-publishing, the idea was that, “Well I’m gonna be a do-it-yourself guy on my first book and I wanna experience the whole process. The writing, the editing, the marketing, the publishing, and, most importantly, coming from an illustrative background, was the cover art. My fantasy titles actually get a lot of comments on the cover art because my illustration style is so unique and I tend to illustrate the tone of the book, rather than the content.    But the biggest thing when I went into self-publishing—and I will without reservation tell every self-publishing author who’s thinking of their own editing—go ahead and slap yourself in the face right now and get a freelance editor lined up to edit your book.   [R laughs]     S: There’s a reason that editors are so in-demand, so highly sought after and so highly regarded in the publishing industry, and it’s because published authors would not exist without them.   K: I swear I did not pay him to say this! I promise.   [S laughs]   R: I mean, she’s writing a check right now, but that wasn’t arranged beforehand.   K: But that is something that we talk about a lot, is that there’s a reason—even if it’s not just an editor—get other people to read your book and give you feedback on it. Preferably people that maybe have some experience and at least some involvement in this process, but.   [51:21]     S: Mhm. So this advice comes from as much of an art background as it does writing. But you need to be able to have a thick skin, as an author, and be able accept critique without taking it as a personal attack. In both art and writing, the people that succeed are the ones that can take feedback and improve their writing based on it. No one is above critique and when someone comes to you and tells you something doesn’t look right, or something reads wrong, you cannot tell them, “No, you’re seeing it wrong.” 99% of the time, when someone gives you a critique that something is wrong, that critique is accurate.   R: Or at the very least, it draws attention to something you need to look at again. That person may not have nailed the solution or given you the exact issue, but they’re pointing to something that’s not feeling right for them.   S: Right. So when I was working with Arley on the Union Earth Privateers #3, there were a couple times—my favorite quote from an editor that I’ve ever gotten. He left me a comment, after I’d made a change, where he said, “I love that I can spend ten minutes marking out a paragraph and telling you why something doesn’t work, and writing out two paragraphs worth of comments on it, and you can go back two pages earlier, change one line of dialogue and it fixes every problem.”     K, laughing: He was—Arley and I had a lot of conversations about, obviously, how things were progressing on your side and he was very impressed with your ability to, instead of having to tear something down and rebuild it, fix it and move forward. But it’s hard to get work back that you've put so much time, effort, blood, sweat and tears into and have somebody say, “Not this, not this, change this, do this.”   S: It is hard.   K: As an editor, I can tell you it’s coming from a place of love. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy.    S: Right.   K: If we didn’t love what you were doing, we wouldn’t care. We wouldn’t tell you how to improve it.   S: I won’t lie or sugarcoat it, it does kinda sting a little bit.   K: It stings, I’m sure!   S: When you get a manuscript back and you see 1200 revisions or, I think the first Vick’s Vultures book when I first saw it had a couple thousand revisions and I was like, “Ohh! I wrote a terrible book!” But the biggest guiding light for working with an editor that I have to keep in mind, and I would encourage other authors to keep in mind, is that an editor’s job is to make your book the best possible version that it can be.    K, delighted: Oh my god, that’s exactly what I say all the time!   [S and K laugh]   K: I want this book to be the best possible version of itself!   S: Mhm. And you won’t always agree with an editor 100% but you have to keep in mind that that’s where they’re coming from. And sometimes you don’t want to turn a phrase or something that isn’t 100% grammatically correct, but invokes the tone or the narration that you want. You have to recognize that, hey, you can push back sometimes against an editor, but for the most part they are trying to improve your book and you are not looking at it from an unbiased perspective.   K: Well I always remind authors that I work with, or even just people who ask me about this, this is a conversation. I’m not standing on high handing down edicts that you must apply to something that is ultimately your work. This is—if there’s something that you’re really hung up on, I’m gonna ask you, “Why is this a big deal? What am I  missing here? Am I not understanding something? Is there a part of this that is just going over my head?” Because that’s happened before! This is a secret. Editors are not perfect. [laughs] And now I have to go because the secret cabal of editor-ninjas are going to come kill me for saying that into a microphone.   R: Well, lucky for you, we are just about out of time. So, I know we could go on trading war stories about either our off-planet missions or editing, but thank you Scott for joining us today. So everyone listening, definitely go check out Union Earth Privateers. If you haven’t already read books one and two, you could catch up on all of them in one weekend, I bet. Because once you get into one, you’re gonna really just read straight through them.   K: Yeah, no. You’re gonna sit down and blow through that.   R: Yeah! So that’s Vick’s Vultures, To Fall Among Vultures, and Where Vultures Dare and those are all from our favorite little press, Parvus Press! You can get them all today.   K: And Scott, where can people find you online? I know you don’t really have a fan page, but if somebody wanted to send you a note and say how much they love the books.   S: So I am abysmal at social media. I’m a very reclusive author and, actually, kind of a funny story if we have time.   K: Sure.   S: I actually came across a post in the wild, on Reddit, referencing Vick’s Vultures, saying that the person had tried to contact me and had been unable because I hadn’t made a Twitter post in months and I hadn’t made a Facebook post in something like half a year, on my author page. And I responded to their Reddit post saying, “Oh, hey, this is me!” So, honestly, the best place to get in contact with me would probably—   K: Is Reddit!   S: Yeah, because I honestly don’t really check my author e-mail? But I am very active on Reddit in the fantasy community and the sci-fi communities and a few other communities. So my username is /u/scodo, so fairly simple. And you can message me on there and probably get more immediate feedback than if you tried my Facebook or my poorly neglected blog or my Twitter account.   R: So if you are a reader who has read both Scott’s fantasy and science fiction, make sure you tell him that you crossed over genres to follow him. Because he doesn’t know that you’re out there.   K: Tell us, too! Because we’d love to hear that as well.   R: Thank you everyone for joining us, thank you Scott for joining us! And good luck with the book launch.   K: Yeah, congratulations!   S: Thank you and thank you guys for having me.   [outro music plays]   R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram, or wmbcast.com.    If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast. If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter.   Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon!  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Can you believe that it’s already been a year since we dropped our first episode, because we sure can’t!  A whole trip around the Sun and what a long, strange trip it’s been.  There’s nothing quite like an anniversary to make you look back on what you’ve done and think about what you maybe could have done differently so in this episode, we decided to talk about retrospection and reevaluation.  Taking a step back to reassess your work is a really, really hard thing to do.  It requires you to put aside strong feelings and possibly favoritism that you might not realize you have toward parts of your writing.  But here’s the thing: sometimes those parts are important to you, aren’t important to the story and maybe even aren’t good for it.  It’s not always fun, and it’s certainly not easy, but reevaluating what you’ve written is a crucial part of the process and the best way to stomp out those pesky Giant Mechanical Spiders (listen to the episode and we promise that will make sense). We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and a comprehensive description the largest mechanical spider you encountered and a detailed description of how you vanquished it. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 35: Reevaluation Anniversary Episode transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   R: Welcome back to another episode of the We Make Books a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.   K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press!   R: And—   K: This is a big deal! This episode.   R: Kaelyn, it’s our anniversary!   K: What did you get me?   R: Beer. You’re drinking it.   K: Yeah, no that’s—Great. Yes, I am drinking a beer. Um, technically it’s the paper episode—technically it’s the paper anniversary.   R: So the label on your beer.   K: Oh, okay. That works. I was—   R: Which, actually, I did not buy you. I lied. I’m sorry. I bought you the socks you’re wearing, though.   K: That’s a good point, yeah.   R: On our anniversary episode we are wearing matching socks!   K: Yes! I was gonna get you a book for the anniversary.   R, touched: Were you really?   K: Paper anniversary. You know, that sounds like a good one. There may or may not be something in the mail for you. Right now.   R: Which book?   K: I can’t tell you, it’d ruin the surprise and surprise is, of course, that keeps our relationship alive.   [both laugh]   R: I thought it was the mechanical spiders that kept our relationship alive.   K: Okay, first of all! You know how I feel about the mechanical spiders!   R: And everyone else is about to.    K: And everyone else is about to, so I apologize in advance. Yeah, so it’s been a year! That’s crazy.   R: Um. I like it.   K: I like it, too! Just think about a year ago, I came up to visit you for the first time. I met your various animals, there were other animals—   R: —and family members, yep.   K: Family members! There were other animals out in the pond.   R: Did we barbecue the very first time? I feel like maybe not the first time.   K: We didn’t go to barbecue, but we cooked out the first time.   R: Oh, okay.   K: Yeah. We—So, yeah, it’s been a year!   R: Yeah. And we’re still here—   K: Still here! It was your birthday party.   R: Yeah. It’s been a year despite the Submission September. We survived and we are still here.   K: Nothing can kill us after that.   R: No, we are very strong.   K: So, a quick look back. Let’s see, first we had three episodes in three days come out. Then we went to the Nebulas, we recorded from there. We came home, both very sick—   R: Mmmmhm.   K: —with throat ailments. Had to edit the episode, some of which we could barely hear what was being said.   R: Oh my gosh there were so many good interviews. There were people we really wish that their interviews had come out better, but there was just nothing but background noise. It was so sad.   K: Yeah. But we had a great time. And then we were steadily churning out episodes. We survived Submission September and now—   R: Which was all Kaelyn’s fault.   K: I—yes, I one hundred percent accept responsibility for that. And now we are battling a plague upon us that is not—   R: Wait, I have been informed by my editing friend that this is not a plague.   K: Yes, okay, fine. It might be by the time this episode comes out.   R: Yeah, if it’s still going by the time this episode airs.   K: Then, yes, this is a plague. So, yeah, it’s been a year. It’s awesome. Thank you so much everyone who’s stuck with us this whole time, who’s been listening—   R: —or to the newcomers.   K: And to the newcomers! Yeah, thank you for, you know, anyone who’s found us and has been—   R: Thanks, especially, for everyone who shares our episodes when they come out and for the people who have left us eight wonderful ratings and several wonderful reviews. And thanks, of course, to our patrons on Patreon. We have two new patrons to happily announce and thank on air today—two difficult names, though. Luckily!  I know Kaelyn’s got one down, but I will take the first one—M. Bunea is a new patron on Patreon, so thank you, M.   K: And we also have Ritesh Shah, Ritesh, thank you, Ritesh for supporting us on Patreon.   R: So, thank you! And if you want to support us on Patreon, you can go over to Patreon.com/wmbcast and we hope all of these supporters we have are there because they find what we say and do very, very useful and helpful and inspiring and realistic and also helpful.   K: So, on that note, today we’re gonna talk about rejection.   [both laugh]   R: Turning this right back around!   K: No, actually, I’m joking, but we are—   R: You’re joking, but we are talking about rejection.   K: We are kinda talk about rejection, but we’re not talking about rejection in the traditional “coping with rejection,” we’re talking about what you can do about rejection. This notion of reevaluating or, one of my favorite terms in the tech and start-up world is pivoting.   R: Ah, yes!   K: Yes, the pivot.   R: Be nimble and pivot.   K: Yes. Something that starts out as one thing, doesn’t quite work, maybe isn’t as well-received as you’d like it to be, so you keep the core idea but you pivot another direction and try to make it something that more people can consume or is more appealing to a wider audience. This is really an episode which, you know, kind of works out with our hundredth episode. Oh my god—   R: You did again.   K: Why do I keep saying that?   R: So what they have in the tech sphere is what we need, which is focus groups. Is what you’re saying.   K: Yes. But it kinda fits with our one year episode of, you know, it’s never a bad idea to take a step back, reevaluate, and make sure everything’s still working the way you want it to.   R: Exactly.   K: I mean, we’re good, I think. Right?   R: I was gonna say, are you implying that we need to change?   K: Never. Never change.   R: I think everyone can agree they just heard you say that you would love me more if I changed.   K: Rekka, it is not possible for me to love you more. So you can do whatever you want to yourself—   R, pleased: I’m just gonna bask in the glow of that for a minute.   K, laughing: Do whatever you want to yourself and it is not possible for this to continue to level up here. We have hit—   R: Okay. We’ve peaked. Our friendship has peaked!   K: There is nothing you can do to make me love you less, let’s put it that way.   R: Gotchu. Okay, I’m golden. If only the agents would say that to me in response to my queries.   K: I keep offering to write you a letter of recommendation and you keep telling me you don’t wanna scare people.   [both laugh]   R: She’s gonna reveal things that I’m not ready for them to know yet. That’s just how it is. I need to creep some of these tricks in.   K: Well, no, the recommendation is just a crayon drawing of you surrounded by all of the things that I think are awesome about you. And I don’t know why you—   R: I want this drawing. I mean, I might not send it to agents, but I want this—   K: I don’t know why you think they wouldn’t want to see that.   R: It’s just gonna be on my website. It’s gonna be the front page of my website.   K: Yes, excellent.   R: Okay, cool. Hopefully, by now, that’s already up and everyone can go and look at that at rjtheodore.com.   K, laughing: So, okay! Before we continue down the silly road—   R: I guess we should have an episode.   K: We should probably have an episode. So, yeah, take a listen. Hopefully you enjoy this episode, as you have the previous year’s worth, and, if you don’t, maybe let us know what we should reevaluate.   R: Or just reevaluate and listen to something else!   K: Either of those.   R: All right, either way, here comes the music!   [intro music plays]   K: Okay, ready for the countdown whenever you are.   R: One, two, three, four, five—   K: Four, five, clap!   R: Click.   [both laugh]   R: And of course I say click!   K: Yes, I was, yeah. It’s fine. See, this is what I mean when I’m saying we might have to reevaluate this.   R: Uggh. I don’t like it!   K: No, never. There is nothing to reevaluate. You and I will just continue going at a perpetual speed barreling forward into an unknown future with reckless abandon.   R: They tried to separate us, we’re still podcasting.   K: Not even the greatest pandemic in modern history can separate us!   R: It’s true. It is apparently true.   K: So, along those lines. We reject this notion that we will be kept apart and we will reevaluate all of our situations in order to make sure we stay together.   R: Yep. Forever.   K: So, yeah. That’s what we’re talking about today. We’re talking about, primarily, reevaluation. Having to take a step back from your work and make decisions about why this maybe is not getting published—or rejected, if you will.   R: Well, it is getting rejected.   K: Yes! Yes it is.   R: Why it’s not getting published because it is being rejected.   K: Assuming—we’re assuming that you’re submitting this and it’s not being published, not because you’re not trying to get it published. We’re assuming you’re being rejected.   R: Right. That’s another possibility. Why isn’t my book being published? I dunno, have you written it yet? Have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in?   K: No one has come knocking on my door asking if I have a book to be published. It’s very weird.   R: I don’t understand!   K: This isn’t an episode, so much, about dealing with rejection on a personal level, this is about dealing with rejection on a professional level. At a professional level, you’re going to get to a point where you have to kind of look at what you’re doing and try to figure out where the problem is coming from. We want to start off with a qualifier here.   [10:08]   R: Right. So when you are sending your work out. Basically, if you’re sending it out, you’ve written a query letter. From the moment you’ve begun writing your query letter, begun planning to write your query letter, you are working around a product. So, at this point, I need you to separate your emotions and your self-worth as a writer from this product.   K: And that’s a hard thing to do. And I’m sure there—   R: It’s not easy.   K: —there are people screaming at home, “This is my life! This is my work! This is me!” It’s not. Your value as a person, as a human being, is not intrinsically tied to this book.   R: And if this is the first book that you are trying to get published, this is hopefully one of many, many, many. So it feels, right now, like this is my entire catalog. This is me!   K: Like my soul has come out of my body and is now in digital form in these words that I have put into a certain order and I want people to read.   R: Right. But this is just the beginning of your career. You will write so many other books and you will look back and go, “Wow. I sure was cute back then,” you know?   K, laughing: Remember when I panicked for a month and a half about—   R: I mean, the panic never goes away, let’s be real, but this particular book, you’re gonna look back—   K: Well it evolves, you know, you’ll be panicking about new things now. Like, the other things you used to panic about will seem silly in comparison.   R: But someday you’re gonna look back and not think this book was The Book. That’s just how it is.   K: Hey, and you know what? Hopefully it won’t be.   R: Right.   K: Hopefully there’ll be multiple of them.   R: There’ll be so many books, you’ll be like, “Oh! Does that? I thought someone else wrote that one!”   K: Yup.   R: I remember reading that once.   K: Yeah, so just to qualify. Rejection is hard to deal with. I know, this—don’t take it personally. I know that’s a really easy thing for me to sit here and say. It’s not an easy thing—   R: Yeah, you acquiring editor, you.   K, laughing: It’s not an easy thing to convince yourself of. You know, one of my favorite movie lines that I use all the time, “It’s not personal, it’s just business.”   R: Mhm. Which, of course, was not spoken by the hero of the movie.   K: That’s not the point.   R: Yeah.   K: That depends who you think the hero is here, Rekka.   R: Okay, I guess fair.   [both laugh]   K: Yeah, so, it’s a hard thing to get your head around, especially if you’re down, if you’re depressed about it. Be kind to yourself. I mean, that’s the running theme of this show. Read your contract and be kind to yourself.   R: I’ll tell you what, in terms of rejections, I’m very glad that I started writing short fiction before I started querying agents.   K: That is an excellent, excellent point.   R: And I didn’t do it on purpose, but short fiction—you get so many rejections as you send these through the magazines and it is really a matter of persistence and patience and just trying again. And so it’s very... callous-building.   K: Yes.   R: It’s, yeah. You will build a shell and you will get tougher and I think that therein lies the value of short fiction. Maybe.   K: I will quote one of the songs that I can’t get out of my head, recently, which is twenty one pilots’ “The Hype” one of the lines from that is: “You don’t get thick skin without getting burnt.”   R: Right, and so a quick path to getting burnt is the short fiction magazine market. Use the website Submission Grinder because that will help you find the markets that will send you your rejections the fastest. So you don’t end up waiting for three years on your first rejection because you send it to a magazine that never replies.   K: You’re inoculating yourself there.   R: Yes, so that is what it is. That really taught me to just kind of be like, “All right! There’s the rejection, I can send it somewhere else now,” you know? You feel like you’re moving down a to-do list more than you are piling your hopes and dreams into someone else’s calloused hands. You build your own calloused hands and you climb the mountain.   K: Oh, believe me, as the person sending the rejections, my hands are pretty damn calloused.   R: Right. And your heart, too, of course.   K, insulted: Well, Rekka, I don’t have a heart.   R: Uh-huh, that’s true, Editor. I keep forgetting. I keep forgetting.   [K laughs]   K: So, let’s talk about some different kinds of rejections. I’m gonna lump this into two categories here, and these are very broad categories. We’re not gonna talk about the first one so much because that’s not what this episode is about.   The first kind of rejection is, like, a victim of circumstance-type rejection. It’s a casualty of not being in the right hands at the right time. This is a very common kind of rejection. You may have written a great book and just can’t get it to the right person to read it and publish it and take a chance on it. This, I think, is—And, Rekka, I’m sure can absolutely speak to this—this is incredibly frustrating.   R: Yeah. And there’s nothing you can do about it.    K: There’s nothing you can do about it and it’s—   R: There’s nothing you can do about it!   K: Yeah, and for those at home going, “Well if you wrote a good enough book, somebody should just want it no matter what”: That’s not how it works. If you’ve written a fantastic epic fantasy, but this publishing house just bought three other epic fantasies, they might say, “We can’t do another one of these right now.”   R: Right. And they may not even read it, you know? It’s not like they’re rejecting it because it’s too close to one of their epic fantasies. They may go, “Nope, our wheelhouse is full of, our stable is full of—”   K: “We don’t—we’re not taking epic fantasies.”   R: Yeah. We’re not taking epic fantasies right now. They just saw, in your title, that it was an epic fantasy, or your query letter, and they just moved on.   K: Exactly. So, we’re not really talking about that kind of rejection, other than to say: I’m really sorry and I hope somebody buys your book eventually.   R: Yeah, I mean. The good news about that rejection is it’s not based on quality.   K: Yes. So let’s talk about rejections based on quality, though, because that is kind of what this episode is dovetailing into. When you’re getting to a point where you’re just getting rejection after rejection, maybe you’re getting some notes back in some cases, you have to start thinking about why this is constantly getting rejected. I will lay out some hard truths here: maybe your writing is not that good.   R: That is a possibility.   K: Maybe there’s a lot of grammatical problems. Maybe you have some style issues. Taking a step beyond that, let’s say people have read it and said, “No, your writing’s fine, that’s not a problem,” maybe there’s some story problems. Maybe there’s issues with overly complicated plots and characters.   R: Or just pacing.   K: Pacing! There could be some story mechanic issues in there. Maybe it’s not… a really interesting story. Maybe it is something that is very interesting to you and you really love all the minutiae and the details, and somebody reading this is going, “I can’t get through this! I can’t get excited or interested in this!”   R: The good news about that is that it doesn't mean your story isn’t as good as you think it is. It may just be that you are sending it to people who are not your audience, in terms of either the publisher or agent.   K: So, but then, let’s talk about that because—you just hit the nail on the head, Rekka—your audience.   R: Yup.   K: This is where the theme of this episode comes in. This idea to take a step back and reevaluate. This is, actually, one hundredth—or…   R, with much snark: One hundredth?! Wow!   K:This is actually, you know, as we mentioned in the intro, this is our one year episode. If you go back and listen to our first couple episodes—now, granted, they were chaos!   R: Hey, come on.   K: Well, I mean, we recorded a bunch really quickly because we wanted to be able to have it set up in time for the Nebulas.   R: Mhm.   K: And then we went to the Nebulas and recorded some episodes there and oh boy was there background noise. [laughs] But we had a great time and it was a lot of fun. But even, you know, Rekka and I, who are good friends—we talk to each other pretty much every day, we’re probably overly involved in each others’ lives—   R: I know a whole lot about Kaelyn, let me just say!   K: And, you know, it’s funny because I always say, “Oh, I’m such a private person,” and she’s like, “Yeah, you say that and you’re really not.” And I’m like, “No, that’s just you! No one else knows all this stuff about me!” My mother is gonna start calling you and asking you questions about what’s going on in my life!   R: Oh god! [laughs] I’m an interrogator and you don’t even realize the skill involved here.   K: Yeah, no. Trust me, I have, every now and then, suspected that you may be an agent of my family. But if you go back and listen to even just our first couple episodes—I would go so far as to say the first couple months of them, it’s a little different. We’ve definitely said, “Okay, let’s try to do more of this, less of this. Let’s try to go off on fewer tangents! Let’s make a concerted effort to, you know, do these things.”   Some of that was, maybe not feedback, just things people mentioned to us—   R: It was more that we were running out of time in the recordings, ‘cause we’d go on and on and on.   K: Yeah. A lot of it is self-evaluation, too. So, all of this is to say there is nothing wrong with taking a step back and saying, “What I’m doing is not working, I need to reassess, reevaluate, and recommit myself to what I’m trying to accomplish here.”   R: If my epic fantasy novel is sixteen hundred pages, maybe I need to dial it back.   K: Because if what you’re getting is, “Hey, this story’s pretty good. I can’t read this, it’s too long.” Then that’s something you have to consider.   Now let’s talk about different kinds of feedback you could be getting. Before you send this to anyone in the publishing profession that you are going to try to convince they should buy or publish, hopefully you’ve let some other people see it. Hopefully you didn’t just crank this out and send it off to people who do this professionally.   [20:28]   K: Be they friends, family, maybe like a writing community you belong to, or maybe even a professional editor that you hired to take a pass at it.   R: Yo.   K: Yup. Now, obviously, there’s different—this is going to come off sounding mean and I don’t mean it be that way—Some people’s opinions here carry more weight than others.   R: Right.   K: If, for those of you playing along at home—The professional editor that you hired, that’s probably the person whose opinion you should be giving more credence to.   R: Versus your mom.   K: Versus your mom! Yeah. [laughs]   R: As the professional editor I hired once told me, everyone will have an opinion. Not everyone’s opinion is worth listening to.   K: Some opinions are more opinion than others.   R: Mhm.   K: I always hearken back to Animal Farm: “All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”   R: Right.   K: All people’s opinions are opinions, but some people’s opinions are more important than others. Now, hopefully, if you’re paying someone to look at this, they’re going to be giving you some feedback. If the feedback is, you know, concise, easy to cut, clip, modify areas like, “Hey, you know, this whole conversation kind of throws the story off and nothing really comes from it, you probably don’t even need it,” you know, or—   R: Yeah, it’s slowing things down or, “They return to this place four times, and then they go do something and then they come back, and then they go do something and then they come back and it’s starting to feel like a yo-yo.”   K: That’s not what we’re talking about because that’s an easy fix. We’re talking about situations in which you’ve got to really rethink what you’ve put in this book and how you’re presenting it. And that is very hard to do. That’s a hard thing, one, to accept that you need to do. It’s a hard point to get to, to say like, “All right. I have to take a step back from this and really look at the story I’m trying to tell, and why this story is not coming across the way I want it to.”   R: Mhm.   K: Or maybe it is coming across the way you want it to and people are not enjoying it.   R: Right.   K: So, in our previous episode, we talked a lot about the line you have to draw for yourself—and I’ll hearken back to that—you gotta decide: is it really important for you to get this story published exactly how it is or are you willing to make changes in order to get the story published? Now, in this scenario, I’m imagining that there are some problems that you need to address. It’s not a matter of simple artistic integrity. This is that there are some issues in this story that you need to work on.   R: And we’re talking about, now you’ve gotten feedback from agents and possibly editors who are acquiring editors.   K: Yes. Or even professional editors. You know, I’ve talked to professional editors who—the fun position they’re in is if someone hires them, they’ve gotta read it no matter how god-awful it is, and try to give constructive feedback. I have personally looked at—met people at various events and talked to them and then taken a look at their work and, kinda, squared my shoulders back and gone, “Okay! Let’s do this!” Because some books are tear-downs. Some are: there is a general story and plot that is good or that you can work with, here, but you’ve gotta do a whole bunch of work on this.   R: I mean, Flotsam is a case in point.   K: There you go.   R: I threw the whole man out, you know? I took the draft that I had, which was revision 11 or 12, I put it aside, and I started over.   K: Yeah, and that’s a really hard thing to do.   R: There are three paragraphs that carried over from the original.   K: Well, and you can get stuck in this idea of a sunk cost fallacy, where i have put so much work into this, I can’t start over again.   R: Right.   K: But, I want you to think about—have you actually been putting so much work into it or have you been spending hours and hours tinkering with something that already exists?   R: Right. And that was mine. I kept rewriting it, adding new ideas, but I wasn’t fundamentally changing the story except that I just was engorging it.   K: Yeah. Think of this as, like, you’ve got a house with a lot of plumbing and you’re spending all of this time running around, plugging up these little holes, when what you actually should be trying to figure out is, “What the heck is going on with the water pressure that is damaging all the pipes?”   R: Mhm.   K: So, it is a very hard thing to say, “I really need to sit down and figure out what is wrong with my story.” And then you could get feedback that comes back and says, “You need to get rid of this entire thing. It’s not working. It’s distracting. It’s offensive. It has nothing to do with the story.” Whatever the problem is, there, that’s a really hard thing to get your mind around.   My personal experience is, whenever I work with a writer—whether it professionally or just kinda on-the-side conversations I have with them about their books—I always ask, “What’s your favorite part of this story?” And I am always shocked by the answer. Always.   R: It’s never something that stands out to the reader.   K: Well, it’s never something that stands out to me. Because I, of course, especially books that I work on at Parvus, I always have my favorite part of the story—Apologies, guys, there’s some noise in the background, as you said, we’re recording remote so I am, unfortunately, well not unfortunately, I am dead smack in the middle of my neighborhood in Queens, and weirdly there’s a lot of people here.   R, laughing: It’s like nobody’s got anywhere to go or somethin’.   K: Yeah, so, apologies for the noise in the background. But, to get back to the point is that: I am consistently shocked by what the author says is their favorite part. And this is, I don’t know what this is, I don’t know what the causality and correlation here is, but constantly, it’s parts that—it’s not that I would have suggested getting rid of them, but it’s things that I don’t think are necessarily integral to the story.   R: Of course. It’s the little moments where somebody had an epiphany while they were writing, but they’ve attached themselves emotionally to it.   K: It’s funny you say that, because that’s exactly what it is. It, a lot of times, seems to depend on what was going on in the writer’s life when they were doing this, and then they just have this fond memory of—   R: Writing that scene or whatever.   K: —writing that scene and, yeah. But! What also happens, a lot of times, when you’re trying to deal with this is—I finally get to talk about one of my favorite things that I come up against with this. I call these the Giant Mechanical Spiders.   R: Kaelyn loves this one.   K: I love this one because there’s a great story behind why I call it this. So I’ve said Giant Mechanical Spider, raise your hand if you immediately flashed to the movie Wild, Wild West.   R: I mean, I’m pretty sure that’s all the hands.   K: Yes, so, there is a producer for movies named John Peters. Interesting background about John Peters, he produces all of these blockbuster movies and he got his start as Barbara Streisand’s hairdresser.   R: Hey, he’s got style I guess.   K: Yeah, everyone starts somewhere, right? So John Peters was very fixated on writing a movie that had a giant mechanical spider in it. And this was probably in the mid- to late-nineties when CGI was becoming a thing. You know, Jurassic Park was a smashing success. We were really, rapidly advancing what we could do.   R: He saw his opportunity.   K: So, Kevin Smith was hired to write a treatment of the fifth Superman movie that obviously never happened and, you know, he gave an interview and he was talking about how one of the—the slow downs here, if you will, was he met with John Peters, who was the producer of the movie, and he gave him three things that—keep in mind, this script did not exist.   R: Right.   [29:13]   K: Kevin Smith was there to write a treatment of this, to try to come up with what this story was gonna be. John Peters gives him three requirements. I don’t know what the other two were, but at one point, Superman had to fight a giant mechanical spider. This script did not exist. But this producer already knew—   R: The scene had to happen.   K: —Superman had to fight a giant mechanical spider. The movie, obviously, never got made. I’m gonna entirely blame the giant mechanical spiders, but—   R: Eh, it’s possible.   K: It’s possible. Then, John Peters is attached to a project that is trying to make Neil Gaiman’s The Sandman which, you know, anybody who’s familiar with that knows it’s been a notoriously difficult project that’s been in development hell for a long time. Looks like it’s finally happening!   R: Yeah.   K: This was something that already existed. John Peters comes in and talks to the writers who are doing the first pass and immediately starts trying to interject a giant mechanical spider into this. Into Neil Gaiman’s The Sandman!! I don’t know where—   R: Yeah, I don’t think he read The Sandman before…   K: He didn’t! He didn’t! He just—What he was doing was fixating on movies that were gonna have big budgets—   R: To fit his spider, yeah.    K: —that were big enough to get this in. So, then we come to Wild, Wild West.   R: And here’s his moment to shine!   K: Here’s his moment because Wild Wild West is a lot of things. It’s whatever, it’s a fun movie.   R: Mhm. A summer popcorn flick.   K: But it’s a western, buddy cop movie, essentially.   R: Steampunk movie. Yeah.   K: Yeah! But! It is only steampunk because of the giant mechanical spiders! So I call the Giant Mechanical Spiders in writing—or GMSes, if you will; beware the GMSes—ideas that authors cannot let go of. They are just, whether they be a thing that happens, a particular scene, a conversation, a plotline, things that you just cannot get rid of. Even though they’re not working and they have no business being there. You think they’re really cool, and you need to get it in there.   R: Because very rarely is there a producer over your shoulder, telling you you need them. As a writer.   K: Yeah, but there will be an editor coming in saying, “Here’s a can of Raid, get rid of that Spider.”   R: But it’s my darling, I don’t want to kill it!   K: Yeah, well, I don’t care if you’ve named the Spiders.   R: Yes. Save it for something else.   K: That can be a major hang-up in your books, and that can be something that’s really hard to reevaluate and get rid of. This thing that you’ve fixated on, that you love, that you think is just so cool, is perfect, it’s amazing, this is everything we need for this book and getting rid of it is gonna ruin it. It’s probably not.   R: It’s probably not, at all.   K: So being able to take a step back and say, “Why isn’t this working?” Now, where do you get this feedback from? Well, as we’ve mentioned, maybe you’re lucky and you get some feedback from an editor or an agent. Maybe you’ve hired an editor to give you some feedback. That’s gonna be pretty valuable feedback. But you’re not gonna be able to constantly get that.   So this is where writing communities are really helpful and important. There’s a lot of people out there. Go listen to our first episode with Miri Baker about writing communities and why they’re great for this kind of thing. I won’t call it workshopping because that’s not quite it. But trying to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of your story and work on them. Writing communities are a really great place to do that.   R: And you also make connections where you might be able to just brainstorm with somebody who’s become your friend, and then it’s not that you’re just walking up to strangers and demanding this emotional and intellectual labor of them.   K: Yep. Yeah. And the most important thing there, though, is to be able to accept criticism and to not take it personally.   R: Right. If you’re at the point where you can’t take criticism, it might not be the point where you are ready to start querying your book.   K: Yeah. That’s a very, very good point. Beyond taking the criticism, being able to act on it. It’s one thing to say, “Hey, you know, this Giant Mechanical Spider is really distracting. It comes out of nowhere. I don’t know why it’s in this book,” but then to just go, “I really like it, I don’t know, I just think it’s cool! I’m gonna figure out a way to make it work.”   You’re creating more work for yourself and you’re actually working backwards, at that point.   R: You are bending in contortions just to fit this in. Save it. It’s gotta home somewhere, maybe someday.   K: Yeah, like maybe you’ll make a movie about Owen WIlson and Will Smith out in the west—   R: Maybe. You never know.   K: —and wild things happen to them. Take consistent criticism very seriously. If more than one person is telling you the same thing, unprompted, it’s probably worth thinking about and paying attention to.   R: Mhm, yeah. One person, if you really feel like they’re wrong and they just misunderstood the story, you can potentially backburner that information and move on to the next query letter, next agent you wanna query, but if you keep getting it over and over again, you’re gonna have to start thinking about—maybe you’re in the wrong genre! Maybe this is an expectation of the genre you want, but you’re querying agents who don’t serve that genre. I mean, probably not though. I mean because if they’re gonna give you that kind of feedback, they’re also gonna mention: Hey, this isn’t really my wheelhouse.   K: Yeah.   R: So, that’s, you know. If you think thirty agents are wrong, it’s probably you.   K: Here’s the thing: thirty agents are not wrong.   R: Thirty agents are not wrong about the same thing. So, but, what do you do if it’s because your writing’s not great?   K: Well, if the feedback you’re getting is, “Hey, the writing here is just really lacking,” this is a hard one. I’m gonna say this and it is not meant to be discouraging in any way. I am never going to be a great tennis player. I’m just not. I have accepted this. I have moved on with my life. I can take all the lessons in the world and, you know what, I can get maybe competent, but I’m never gonna be great.   Some people are never going to be great writers. For whatever reason. I think we do a disservice to a lot of people when we think: well, it’s just classes. It’s just this. You can just learn how to write. You can. You absolutely can improve and get better. You can’t say, “If I do A, B, C, and D, I will be a great writer.”   R: Right, there’s no formula for suddenly improving your craft by six hundred percent.   K: Now, this is not to say that you can’t improve. You absolutely can. Take some writing classes if this is really that important to you.   R, loudly: Read More. In your genre.   K: And read more. I think the best way to become a good writer is to read a lot.   R: Until you internalize the sentence structures and the tropes and the pacing of a plot and the way characters develop in a story. You can get a lot of that by just consuming gobs and gobs of books. You will start to just notice and become attuned to the rhythms of a story.   K: And, by the way, this goes both ways. myself, as an editor, I can spend as much time as I want listening to and reading about and taking classes on story structure and theory and all of these things, but if I haven’t actually really read anything, then how am I gonna apply that, you know? You don’t learn how to drive a car by reading about how to drive a car.   R: That’s another good point. Even if you are becoming a writer, not an editor, find a critique group online where there’s a whole bank of stories waiting for someone to critique them and go through and start critiquing. Because when you are able to constructively critique other people’s work, you are able to internalize that on your own stories as you read through it.   K: And constructively is the important word there.   R: Yeah, I did use that word with capital letters.   K: That was, I’m sure, a hundred percent intentional. Constructively is the important word there.   R: Yep.   K: Critiquing for the sake of critiquing is counter-productive and also a shitty thing to do.   R: Yeah, the word critical has kind of two meanings. Critical commentary, you know—movie critics can like movies. But for some reason critical people in critique groups never like anything, except their own work.   K: Yeah.   R: And if you’re not using this as an opportunity to find other work you like or to point out the positive things—what’s also working, in addition to areas that might need help—then you are not really fulfilling the entire function.   K: Yeah. So there are certainly ways to improve your writing and, the thing is though, this takes time. This is not gonna happen over night. Rekka, would you say what—assuming a pretty consistent amount of practice and reading and exercises—what, no less than a year, probably, before you can—   R: Oh, yeah, I mean, if you’ve already written one thing and you can take the critiques that you’ve gotten, either from beta readers or editors or agents who’ve gotten back to you and given you direct feedback on it, if you can examine that objectively and come back to it and then put it aside and start fresh? I guarantee you that next thing is going to be better. Already.   K: Yeah!   R: It’s going to be better incrementally. I can’t guarantee you that in 11 months, 5 days you will have written something that is 600 percent better than the last thing. But every time you write something, you get better.   K: Absolutely. Now, that said, if you feel like you’re spinning your wheels, don’t keep wasting your time. Put the time into getting better at your craft, rather than going back and trying to fix what you are not yet equipped to fix.   [40:12]   R: Right, notice I said put the story aside. Yeah. It may not be worth it. If you are getting critiques that this story is not well-written, but you love this story, do this story the honor of writing it when you’re a better writer.   K: Take the time. Don’t—Doctors do not perform heart surgery the first day they get out of medical school. Because yeah, they know where everything is and they’ve probably seen a few and maybe even done some small parts themselves, but that doesn’t mean they’re ready for that kind of thing.   R: Right. So you can take this story—and you’re not putting it away forever—but someday you will write a fresh draft of it that incorporates everything you love, and combines it with the talent that you are going to develop. The skill that you are going to develop.   K: Yeah, and by the way, sometimes it’s a really good thing to step away from a project for a long time and try not to think about it and then come back to it.   R: I mean, think about when you play videogames and you’re so sick of one boss, you know? It’s time to put the thing away.   K: Yeah, exactly. So think about this as a videogame boss. You gotta go somewhere else and level up a little bit first.   R: Or you need to go get a blue key card. It could be anything that’s stopping you from moving forward, but you might wanna just step away and not give up, but do something else. Play a different videogame? Start a different story. Or just read for a while. Like, and then evaluate. How much do I love writing? It’s a hard thing that I’m suggesting, but, is this something that gives me enough joy to warrant the effort that it takes?   K: And how much do I love writing this particular story? Am I willing to put in the time, effort, and focus that it would take to make significant changes? Am I willing to make significant changes?   Because that is a major hurdle that a lot of people have to get over first.   R: Yep. A hundred percent.   K: So don’t be afraid to reevaluate your work. Don’t be afraid to reevaluate what you want, professionally, out of this. It’s a scary thing to do, but it’s important.   R: And here’s the thing—-that it occurs to me we haven’t mentioned—sometimes you get critique from people and you feel like they are trying to change your book.   K: They might be.   R: Well, yes, they are trying to get you to change your book, though. That’s what I’m saying. Whatever you do, unless you are taking text that someone else has provided you and copy-pasting it into your document, this is still your story. If they’re identifying areas that aren’t working, you can change them and it will still be your work.   So, the whole kill your darlings thing is about being willing to take something you thought was really clever or you were particularly proud of, or just fond of—like Kaelyn was saying, those moments where she’s like, “Really? That was your favorite part?”—and strip them out of the story for the good of the story. The whole idea is everyone involved, ostensibly, is trying to help you make this the best story it can be.   K: Round up the Giant Mechanical Spiders, take them behind a chemical shed, and shoot them.   R: OR save them for the Giant Mechanical Spider book. Just saying.   K: Fine. Save them for the Giant Mechanical Spider book.   R: Just saying, this producer probably could have found somebody to write a movie that was about his spiders. [laughs] Instead of trying to insert the spiders in every movie that he produced.   K: Yeah.   R: So, save—   K: Beware of the Giant Mechanical Spiders. They are venomous.   R: And probably are not improving your story quite as well as you think they are.   K: Yeah, because they’re poisoning it because they’re venomous because they’re Spiders. And I love spiders, but not the giant, mechanical ones.   [long pause]   K, defensively: Spiders are awesome, Rekka.   R, laughing: I’m just… where are you going with this?   K: I just! Spiders are awesome!   R: Spiders are awesome, I have no problem with spiders.   K: They’re—they’re super useful animals, they’re—   R: I’m just trying to stop you from killing the mechanical ones.   K: The mechanical ones are different from the other ones. Mechanical Spiders, I mean, no one asked for them.   R: Look, I have a fond place in my heart for ridiculous story elements, and I think there’s probably a story in which those Mechanical Spiders belong and I think someone who writes a story with Mechanical Spiders and is rejected because of the Mechanical Spiders does not have to kill the Mechanical Spiders, they just have to remove them from this story.   K: Okay, we’re gonna take the Mechanical Spiders—   R: Like, when I find a spider in the bathroom and I carry it outside because it doesn’t belong in the bathroom, but I don’t want it dead.   K: Okay, so, take your Mechanical Spiders and free them into the world or send them to a farm upstate—   R: And if it was meant to be, they’ll come back to you. [laughs]   K: There you go. And if you go outside and the Mechanical Spiders are still, you know, roaming your front lawn, looking sad, then you know you have to create an environment in which they can thrive.   R: All right. So! If you have a Mechanical Spider that you would like to tell us about—   K: Actually—   R: —or if you just want to tell us to lay off the mechanical spiders—   K: Actually, that’s a good—if you can think of one, Tweet us something that you suspect in like a movie or a book, was a Giant Mechanical Spider. Something that—   R: Kaelyn needs more points of comparison.   K: Something that should not have been there and wasn’t really doing anything, wasn’t helping, but was kinda cool to look at or read.   R: Okay, so that’s your assignment. We are @wmbcast on Instagram and Twitter. You can find us at wmbcast.com with all our back-episodes. We are @wmbcast on Patreon, where you can support us and thank us for this spider-based advice—   K, ominously: Beware the Giant Mechanical Spiders!   R: —and if can’t afford to support us on Patreon, we totally understand, but we would really appreciate if you could take the time to leave a review and rating on Apple’s podcasts or, if your computer’s a little older, Apple iTunes, because that really helps feed the algorithm—not the Spiders—and helps people find us and subscribe. And if you haven’t subscribed, please subscribe!   K: Don’t feed the Spiders.   R: All right! We’ll be back in two weeks, there may or may not be Spiders. Thank you, everyone.   K: There’s always Spiders! You are always near Spiders!   R: Apparently.   K: Thanks everyone, we’ll see you in two weeks.   [outro music plays]                                        

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we have something a little different lined up.  As Rekka is recovering, we wanted to give her a break wherever possible and so for this episode, we are happy to bring you an episode of Rekka's previous podcast: The Hybrid Author.  In this episode, Rekka interviews Alexandra Rowland, author of "A Conspiracy of Truths" and one of the hosts of the Hugo-nominated podcast 'Be the Serpent'.  Alex and Rekka spend this episode talking romance and all of the ways to incorporate it into your story.  It can be an awkward part of the writing process but it doesn't have to be!  Alex has a lot of advice and insight into the process of making your characters kiss and they won't even make you blush while telling you how!  You can (and should) check out Alex on their social media, which is linked below. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the most uncomfortable "romantic" exchange you were forced to enure in a book or movie.  Don't hold back, bring the cringe! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Find Alex at: https://www.alexandrarowland.net Twitter: @_alexrowland Instagram: @ _alexrowland https://www.patreon.com/_alexrowland     Episode 34: Making Characters Kiss with Alexandra Rowland transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00]   K: Hey everyone! Welcome to another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Kaelyn Considine and I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.    R: And I’m Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.    K: And, uh, this episode is a throwback. It’s a throwback so far that it predates our podcast!   R: Yes! [laughs] Many of you may know that I previously hosted, or co-hosted and then solo-hosted, a podcast called Hybrid Author. I lost my co-host and it wasn’t really fun doing it by myself, so when Kaelyn made herself available to become a co-host on an entirely new podcast, I was all too eager to jump ship. But there were some good tidbits on that podcast, including a couple of interviews that, now that we’ve needed to come up with some additional back-up episodes, for whatever’s going on in my health and treatment and everything like that—   K: Rekka’s recovering and just to make sure that everyone’s healthy and—   R: That we have options, you know.   K: —not straining themselves, we thought this would be a great episode to put out there. So Alex Rowland is a published author of two books, right now, called A Conspiracy of Truths and A Choir of Lies, and they came on this podcast to discuss writing romance with Rekka.   R: Yes! Well, not this podcast, as we’ve already mentioned.   K: Oh, yeah. Sorry.   R: But, yes, Conspiracy of Truths was out when Alex recorded this. This was actually recorded on February 5th, 2019. So that’s where this falls in the whole realm of time. And A Choir of Lies, as I was speaking to Alex, had just had its cover reveal that morning on Barnes and Noble’s website. So that’s where we were in time, was February 5th, 2019. But it was a good conversation with Alex. One of the things I realized is that we call this a podcast about writing and publishing and everything in between, but we don’t actually talk too much about different genre topics or writing techniques and so I have a few episodes that are specifically about that, from the podcast, which you can no longer find listed on iTunes, etcetera. So I’m all-too happy to resurrect these interviews, which I think are really valuable.   K: We have a few of these episodes that we selected that we thought would be good and interesting to our current audience as well. We’ll sprinkle them in as we need to while Rekka is recovering, but it’s a great conversation about writing romance. About how to create romantic tension, about what drives these relationships and what makes them compelling and interesting to readers. Alex is a master at creating romantic tension.   R: Definitely.   K: So they have some really great tips, tricks, thoughts in here. Anybody who’s interested in, you know, pumpin’ up the romance a little bit in their writing will certainly leave this with some new ideas.   R: For sure. So, go ahead and listen and KAelyn, say goodbye! ‘Cause you’re not in this one.    K: I’m not! So I’ll see everyone in two weeks. Enjoy guys!   [intro music plays]   R: So joining us today, as I mentioned in the intro, is the wonderful Alexandra Rowland! So, Alex, how ya doin’? Write anything with a cool cover lately?   A: I am great. And, yes, in fact just today—like five minutes ago—we just launched the cover for A Choir of Lies which is the sequel to my debut book, which came out last year, A Conspiracy of Truths. If you read Conspiracy, then you will know the main character of this one. It is adorable cinnamon roll, Ylfing! And this book is full of evil capitalism and fantasy tulip mania and all sorts of cool stuff.   R, laughing: Fantastic! Well, I have brought you on today because I can’t do romance by myself.   A: Sure. Sure, sure.   R: And before we lead everyone astray, we’re not doing romance together, we are going to talk about romance and Alex is going to help me. Because Alex does fantastic pairings and makes chemistry happen. [giggles]   A: I write kissing books.   R: Yes! I really wanted to have you on to talk about that moment of budding romance and how you develop a character’s relationship. What some of your favorite relationship tropes are because I know you have a couple!   A: A lot. I do!   R: And anything else you can think of because I put about as much romance into my books as I do economics.   A: Sure.   R: So I thought it would be a good idea to get another author’s take on this. If anyone’s romantic, it’s Alex.   A: Sure, well, that’s true. Yeah, I do love feelings. I often say feelings are how you know you’re alive.    R: The more painful, the more alive you are. Right?     A: Right! Yeah, exactly. LIke having really intense feelings just means you’re really, really alive in that moment. Alright, so, let’s see. Where to start? Do you have anywhere, where you’d like me to start, specifically, or…?   R: Well, you said the feelings thing and it just occurred to me that I just endured the Hobbit trilogy movies.    A: I’m so sorry.   R: Yes. It was painful! It was so painful. And those aren’t the feelings I’m talking about, that taught me I was alive.    A: Yeah.   R: But at the end of Battle of the Five Armies, the WASP elf says like, “If this is love, take it from me! I don’t want it!” and, like, why does it hurt so bad? And all this stuff.   A: Yeah.   R: And he says, “It hurts so bad because it was real,” or something like that. And so that’s just—that just came to mind. That wasn’t necessarily going to start our conversation, but I feel like we can get dramatic with talking about feelings.   A: Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, definitely so. I could just spend the rest of this hour doing pterodactyl screaming. All right, so let’s see. Feelings. So how do you design a romance in a book? How do we design characters so that they fall in love? A really satisfying thing—this is not how romance works in real life, obviously, but this is how romance kind of works in fiction, because there’s things that we want from romances in books. One of those things is we want the characters to fit together. We want them to answer a need within each other.    That’s not necessarily—Like, it sounds sexy, but it’s not that, it’s more—   R: [giggles] We’re not talking interlocking puzzle pieces yet.   A: Well, I mean. Kind of! Just not genitals, right? It’s about feelings and emotions and their strength counterbalances your weakness, or they’re confident in something that you’re not confident in. Or they like olives on their pizza and you really don’t, so they always get to pick off the olives. And, you know, you have that sort of symbiotic relationship together.   R: Mhm.   A: Or they really don’t like oreos. Which is fine because it means that you can keep oreos in the house without having to hide them. There’s all sorts of little bits and pieces to having a successful romance in this book. So—   R: And so far you’re not really saying anything that we shouldn’t aim for in real life.     A: No! I mean, all of those things are great. It’s just that when you write them in books, it can go to a bigger extreme and that can get kind of codependent and in real life it would probably be unhealthy. But in fiction it’s delicious!   R: Yes.   A: So, one of the things—I’m gonna use an example from a book that I just finished writing recently. It’s a shamelessly self-indulgent, tropetastic book of my heart. It is probably the most romance-oriented book that I’ve written so far. It’s definitely one of the most character-driven books, and I do write very, very character-driven books in general. But this one is about 50% about the relationship between these two characters and 50% about plot! Despite my misgivings. My agent does insist on the occasional—   R: The little smattering of plot.   A: I know! Gosh! Whenever I sit down to outline a book, I always figure out the emotional arc first. Then I’m like, “Okay! Now I have to staple the plot on afterwards.” Because that’s what I’m most interested in, is the emotional arc. So with these two characters, there is an Enemies to Lovers emotional arc to it. And Enemies to Lovers is a really useful trope because it’s got plot built into it.    R: Yes.   A: Right? Like, how do they—Why is it that they start out enemies? What is the source of this? And then what leads them to change their feelings towards each other? A lot of times there’s an unspoken Enemies to Friends to Lovers, in the middle there, so how do they first come to have these changing feelings? How do they grow respect for each other, organically? And how do they come to see each other in such a different light?   So, with these two characters, one of them has chronic anxiety and the other one is very stoic and doesn’t think a lot about his feelings and sees the world in a very black-and-white kind of way.     R: Mhm.   A: And so the challenge here is for the stoic, black-and-white character to stop seeing the anxiety character as a coward. Because this anxiety character is in a position where the stoic character thinks that he should definitely be more together, and have more of his shit together, and he does not. And the stoic character sees this as a major personal failing and isn’t cool with it.   [10:11]   R: Yeah, I have a cheat sheet in that I have read this book.   A: Yes, yes.   R: Or a previous draft of it, at least. And, so, the stoic has a cookie-cutter of an ideal personality that, in the initial circumstances that bring them together, the anxiety character absolutely, completely fails to fit into.    A: Yeah, like he’s failing to meet every standard that the stoic character has, yes. But they are forced to be near each other for plot reasons—which I will not divulge right now—and over time the stoic character is forced to see more nuance in the world around him and learn to see things in a spectrum of shades of gray, rather than just black-and-white. And to be more accepting of other people’s flaws and also that kind of involves being more accepting of his own flaws, too.   R: Right.   A: I think that’s a big part of romance is that it’s as much about your relationship with yourself, as it is about the relationship that you have with another person. You have to do personal growth and personal work on yourself, before you can achieve this transcendental, epic, soulmate romance with this other person. You have to be worthy of it.   R: Right. So, in a pure romance plot, that is the plot.   A: Yes.   R: Sort of, getting through yourself to reach the other person.   A: Yes.   R: And in a plot-plot, where you also have romance, you also get to have fun things like economic shenanigans and political shenanigans.   A: Yeah, and external stuff that’s going on. Yeah.   R: Yeah, okay. So when you—Can you name, I mean, you know the tropes better than anyone because you deal with the fanfic. Which, fanfic really knows what they’re doing in terms of story structure and hitting tropes and then fulfilling the promises made by those tropes. So what are—we’ve talked about antagonists to lovers—what are the other kinds of romance-style stories that are out there that seem to be most satisfying? Because one that I think of is the Forbidden Love—   A: Mhm.   R: So you have Romeo and Juliet, you also have Rogue and Gambit. They cannot come together or else, or else. So Forbidden Love, Enemies to Lovers, what else is out there?   A: So the common thread through all of these is that there’s some kind of obstacle in between these two characters and them being together. Obstacles are great because if you have an obstacle, then you have stakes. If you have stakes, then something is interesting and compelling and you feel tension and stress when you think about whether these two characters are going to be able to overcome this obstacle. So that’s the big thing in any really classical, meaty, compelling romance trope, is that presence of an obstacle. Either in personal perception and beliefs, as in Enemies to Lovers, or in some other externally sourced obstacle, like Forbidden Love, as you mentioned.    R: Mhm.   A: In Romeo and Juliet, for example, the obstacle is their families and the relationship and the antagonism that is between their families. And that’s something that they overcome. What was the other one you mentioned?   R: The Rogue and Gambit.   A: I’m not familiar with this, what is this?   R: From The X-Men. Okay, so Rogue and Gambit—Oh my goodness. I’m showing my age here. So it’s most exemplified in the ‘90s X-men cartoon, where there’s a powered being, Rogue, whose power is, when she makes physical contact with somebody, she—   A: Oh! She kills them!   R: —sucks their lifeforce. So if they are human, she’s probably just going to kill them. If they’re a mutant, she’ll actually take their mutant abilities for a while and they will either be comatose right after, or she just weakens them. Meanwhile, she’s now developing—Sometimes they bring in personality and the X-men cartoon was mostly just that if somebody was telepathic, she would be telepathic for a little while.   A: So we’re talking about, like, they can’t touch. Like in Pushing Daisies.   R: They can’t touch! So she wears gloves, but obviously she doesn’t have a ski mask on, so she can’t kiss a romantic interest and all this kind of stuff. And that’s sort of torturous, no matter what we do, we can’t be together, so, of course, that’s all we want, situation. So that’s why I bring that one up.   A: Yeah! This was also huge in Pushing Daisies which is one of my favorite shows ever. Have you seen it?     R: Nope, no. So, okay, we’ve each got—   A: Oh my god! You should watch it!   R: —one the other hasn’t seen.   A: Oohh, you should watch it. Pushing Daisies is this amazing show about a pie baker who has a magical power where, if he touches a dead person, they’ll come back to life for, I think, like two minutes.    R: Okay.   A: And then he has to touch them again to kill them permanently. And after that he can’t bring them back again. But if he doesn’t, then someone else in the vicinity will die. And then the dead person will just be alive for however long. But still, if he touches them again, then they die. It’s a little convoluted.   R: Okay, so he’s got two minutes—I’m sorry, I just gotta work this out because I didn’t realize there was a magical aspect to this show. So he’s got two minutes, and that’s the window where he can fix the fact that he brought them back to life and, outside of that window, he’s sacrificed someone else at random and still cannot make contact with this person.   A: Correct, correct. So, in the show, he brings a woman back to life who is his childhood crush.   R: Oh, okay.   A: And can’t bring himself to touch her again to kill her. So someone else dies. And then she is here and around and a character, but he can’t touch her. Because if he touches her again, then she dies permanently. So there’s this—but they’re like madly, madly in love and the show is so, so sweet and wholesome. The show actually does a really good job of—the obstacle is: How can we overcome this we-can’t-touch thing? And they get really creative in how these two characters can actually touch by basically giving them, like, full-body condoms?   R: Oh gosh!   A: So they are cuddling together with a plastic sheet in between them or they’re holding hands wearing rubber gloves or things like that. Or they’re kissing through a piece of saran wrap. It’s real cute. Real cute. So, yeah, that’s an obstacle to overcome that gives stakes. And also they play with how close, like close-calls. Like they’re both walking through a hall and they don’t see each other and they almost bump into each other.    R: Oh, okay.   A: So the stakes are huge. If they accidentally touch, at any moment.   R: All right, so we have the Forbidden Love which has many, many fun aspects. Especially, obviously, in science fiction and fantasy. There’s a lot of ways to play around with it. And we have the first one, which was Enemies to Lovers. Then, in terms of romance novels, I’m thinking you have different personality structures that come together, but in the romance novels that I’ve read, someone is always ever so very perfect. So then there’s the pursuit, then realizing you don’t necessarily like that person, and then realizing the person that you were looking for was, like, your best friend all along or anything like that. Is there a better trope term for that, or is that more of the similar, there’s just an obstacle—I mean, obviously there’s an obstacle in all of these, but—    A: I don’t know if I have an exact trope name for that, but the realizing, “Oh, yes, the person I loved was standing right next to me the whole time. It was my best friend that I have known forever.”   R: Right, so this is like the Ron Weasley romance with Hermione where he thinks he’s, you know, he needs a date but, “Ugh, all I’ve got is Hermione” or “You don’t have a date!” kinda thing.   A: And in that case the obstacle is kind of personal perception, again, and also learning to see this person in a new light. With a best friend that can be really difficult because usually they’ve been around you for so long and you know so much about them that it can be difficult to change what you already know. Or to change your mind about someone. R: Right.   A: And that can be—I guess I would call that Friends to Lovers.    R: Okay. So it’s almost, the enemy in that case is the fact that you have a preconceived notion of who they are and how they fit into your life.   A: Yeah, an established relationship and so forth. And then what other obstacles? Let’s see, I just read a really amazing one, a really amazing romance novel, recently called Unmasked by the Marquess by Cat Sebastian, which was fantastic. It has a non-binary protagonist in it. And, again, a very stoic, aristocratic person who, again, sees the world kind of in black-and-white and has very, very strict personal codes and personal morals and has to, again, learn to be more flexible and see the world in a more nuanced kind of way. Yeah, with romance novels, I think, particularly that theme of doing the personal work on yourself to grow to fit this other person—rather than being two people who are just perfect for each other independently, and without doing anything—so much of it is about making compromises and changing who you are—We have this whole thing in our culture about how you shouldn’t change for another person. Except that’s kind of how relationships work?   R, smiling: Yes.   A: That’s how human beings work. It’s good to be some degree of flexible. It’s not good to change everything about yourself for another person, but you have to do some degree of—   R: There’s work involved.   [20:21]   A: Yeah, yeah! There is work involved.    R: Even in plots and fiction where the reader gets to participate in this romance without putting any effort into it themself. The characters themselves are going to have to do work. And that’s a good point is that when you decide which things you’re willing to change or sacrifice—when you are developing a character, there should be some sort of moral backbone to that character, where it doesn’t change the core of the character to meet this person in the relationship.    But maybe it helps them through a personal weakness, like they talk about the lies we tell ourselves and use those to build your character’s nuanced anxieties and neuroses. And so you meet a character in the middle where you have to give up either the lie you tell yourself, or you have to give up something that you thought was important but, it turns out, is keeping you from happiness versus giving up the fact that you think no one should beat puppies.   A: Right, right. Exactly. It’s not so much about changing a core belief, it’s more about changing how that belief manifests sometimes.   R: Right. Limiting beliefs are the other things, the other term that I’ve heard used for it. This is the thing that keeps me from being happy and this is the thing that the plot is going to answer. Whether it’s, “I think I need to go find this treasure, but what I actually need to do is go find friends,” or, in this case, “I think I want someone who’s going to treat me like the princess I am, and then it turns out I’m actually not such a princess and maybe I need someone who’s gonna hold me accountable for the things I say, or the flaws,” stuff like that.   A: Right. You said something which made me think of a cool thing, which I would like to see more of in romance novels and that’s friends. Because a lot of times when I am reading a romance in a book—this doesn’t happen quite as much with romance novels, actually, because romance novels know what the fuck they’re doing—but with science fiction/fantasy a lot of the times, if there is a romance in the book, a lot of the times that is the only relationship in the book.   R: Yes.   A: And what I would love to see more of is romances that are bracketed, or surrounded by, the ancillary friendships of these two characters who are so involved with each other. I would like to see characters with more of an emotional support network and more of a community and whose communities are interacting with the romance in a way that the characters are also interacting with each other.   R: So, an example of the relationship being the only thing in a romance in science fiction, we are talking like The Fifth Element where not only has he detached himself from his former society of servicemen that he used to work with, now he’s a contracted taxi driver where he doesn’t have to do anything to interact with anyone on a regular basis anymore. Except maybe his mechanic.   A: Yeah. And his cat.   R: And then he meets this woman who was literally just born, so she has no friends either.   A: Right, right. She has those two priests who follow her around, but those aren’t really community. Like, they don’t really see her as a real person.   R: No, those like—And she doesn’t necessarily see them as anything more than just the to-do list that she’s supposed to do. Go find these priests and then find out you like chicken and make-up and then move on with the plot and go get the stones.   A: Yes.   R: Like, she has very—nevermind a limited social circle, she has very limited personality in this movie as well. She just has, I don’t know if you would call this the stoic, because she behaves very emotionally in certain situations, but she wants to move from Point A to Point B and then does not know what her life is going to be after that. She’s gonna turn back into a rock or something and then she’ll be done.   A: Mhm.   R: And he’s kind of drifting through his life at that point with almost zero social circle at that point, except for the man who brings him his noodles right to his window. And fortune cookies.   A: Yeah.   R: So that’s not how you wanna necessarily do it to build deep relationships and deep realism in your story.   A: Yeah, because I mean everyone in—Okay, not everybody. But the vast majority of people have friends as well as romantic partners. And when you are embarking on a new romantic relationship, a lot of the times you are telling your friends about it. “Oh my god, Rekka, I just met this really cute boy! Let me tell you everything about him!” And then you’re like, “Alex, he’s a dinosaur.”    And I’d be like, “No, he’s not!” You’re like, “He’s a literal pterodactyl.”   R, laughing: I would be all-for that. I would encourage that.   A: I know you would. But, yeah, again going back to Cat Sebastian, who I mentioned before. Cat Sebastian does a fantastic job of writing communities in her books. The communities are almost as important as the romance itself and a lot of the times the characters are kind of having a emotional arc with their communities as well as the emotional arc with the romantic partner in the book.   R: Yes, and you definitely have to consider that your friends are only hearing your side of this romantic endeavour so they’re interjecting judgment and opinions from only seeing half the story. Then the other person’s social circle is doing a similar thing depending on they interact.   A: Yeah!   R: And whether that person’s trying to keep it lowkey at first and not tell the friends because every time they tell the friends, the next question is, “When do we get to meet ‘em?” or whatever.    A: Yeah. It can make it a really, a much, much richer experience, I think.   R: And definitely adds some complications. And if you have other friends—every now and then in the group of writers that are going, “Okay I have to solve this plot,” someone will say, “Why does this person go over here and do this? I need them to go do this thing. Why would they do it?” And if you have a social circle, you can say, “Because their friend drags them to it,” or whatever. You have more characters that are intimately involved with your protagonist’s life and because there’s an emotional connection between the two of them on a friends level, there are things that people will do for other people that they would never go and do by themself because they’re backing up a friend.   A: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Yes. One hundred percent. Yes.   R: So you’ve got characters who may or may not have an attraction that they may or may not recognize as attraction and you have a healthy social circle built around them, of people who share interests or share community or share careers—   A: Family connection, yeah.   R: —or they met in a bar because the bar has really good lemon twists or something. So what do you do—You, Alex, with this pair, when you throw them together. How? You can think about it as, like, they gotta bounce off each other a couple times before they can stick. So how do you plan a romantic arc, other than just—we know they start in an opposite point from where they end?   A: So a lot of it I do by feel, but there is also a structure to it. So you have two characters and they have to have a reason to be around each other. If you’re doing a thing where they are bouncing off each other, then you have to have a reason why they’re forced to—Like, what’s the gravity that’s keeping them together? Like two bodies in space. What is the gravitational pull that is keeping them together? Sometimes that’s an external thing, something that is forcing them to stay together by circumstance, by someone else ordering them to go on this spy quest or something, I don’t know.   R: Or arranged marriage, that’s another trope.   A: Or arranged marriage, yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it’s an internal gravitational pull. The fact that they want to be near each other. If the pull is internal, then the obstacle is external. If the pull is external, then the obstacle is internal.   R: That makes a lot of sense.    A: Yeah. So if they really, really want to be together, then who is keeping them apart? And if they really, really don’t want to be near each other, then who is forcing them to be together.   R: Mhm. Or what.   A: Or what, yeah. So, I’m just gonna choose the they don’t really want to be around each other, because that’s my favorite one.   R: Right.   A: So if they don’t want to be around each other, then they’re gonna have clashes of personality. And this works best when it’s small things that lead up to something bigger. Or you have an underlying serious thing and this manifests in a lot of small ways. So you don’t want them to clash completely hard against each other because then there is the chance that they’ll blow up the gravitational pull and ruin everything and go off in two completely different directions. So you can’t push them to their breaking point at this point in the book. Because the gravitational pull’s not strong enough yet to survive it.    So with the small clashes, both of them are already starting to change and shift a little bit. Even if it’s just in questioning something that they’ve never questioned before. And saying—or thinking about something that they have thought of as like an unthinking, given truth about the world. Suddenly they’re noticing it, they’re having an awareness of it that they’ve never had before.   R: So a stability that they had before is now shaken by this person entering their lives.   A: Yeah, they’re set off balance somehow. Then you are going to have, towards the midpoint of the book, or, well, between one third of the way through the book and the midpoint of the book, they’re going to have some kind of bigger event which really tests one or both of them. And they have to make the first compromise. So, before, it’s more like questioning and personal awareness and then you have one big compromise where, I don’t know, they hate each other. One of them saves the other person’s life. Or they have a big argument and one of them makes a good enough argument that they win and the other person goes,” Oh, I never thought of it that way before. Now I have to change something that I think.”   [30:53]   R: And keep in mind, this is the thought they’re having internally and maybe not even recognizing it yet. It’s certainly not what they’re saying out loud.    A: Most of the time, yes. With an argument between the two of them, usually they’re not gonna say, “Fine, you win,” but they may have some kind of other, subtle indication that they have not lost the argument, but recognition that they haven’t won the argument. Like, “I don’t want to talk about this right now. I need to go think about this,” something like that.   R: Right, well, that’s exactly what I mean. Rather than saying, “You made a very valid point and I’m shook,” they try to shut down the argument without admitting defeat or redirect it some way.   A: Right.    R: This might be somewhere where somebody starts bringing up how you always leave your shoes right inside the door for people to trip over, instead of talking about loss or grief or something else that’s deeper.   A: I would say that the shoes being left all over the floor is more towards the—more one of the ones I was talking about before, yeah. One of the smaller personality clashes. This is a more significant one, this is where we start thinking about deep, personal values. Also it helps if, either just before or just after this point of change, they have had a moment where they agree on something. Where they are perfectly in alignment and they are pointed towards the same goal or they agree on some deeply held value.   R: Okay, so it gives them the opportunity to say, “Not only is this person making a good point that’s changing the way I’m looking at things, now I’m suddenly able to recognize that there’s other ways that there’s good in them.”    A: Yeah, yeah. Like, “I respect—or I have some small respect or I wonder about them. I’m curious about them because of this thing that I think is correct and they also think that’s correct. So they can’t be a totally bad person. So why are they like this about this other thing?”   R: Mhm.   A: And, really, all you want to do is get your characters questioning things.   R: Right.    A: So you have this moment of connection between the two of them, and that’s kind of the point where the gravitational pull starts being internal as well. Because they’re starting to be drawn toward each other. And, again, also like objects in space, the farther apart they are, the weaker the connection. And then the closer and closer they get, the stronger the gravitational pull between the two of them.   R: So, in a way, the closer you get them is more forcing them to act toward a common goal. So that puts them—   A: It can be forcing them to act towards a common goal, it can be forcing them to have deep conversations about deeply held personal values. It can be more instances of proving to each other that they’re good people. It can also just be moments of—Here’s the thing. So I’m demisexual and I have a hard time remembering that sexual attraction is a thing?   R: Right.   A: So one of the things that can bring them closer together is also just finding each other just unbearably hot. ‘Cause apparently that’s a—   R: Like one of them changes their clothes and all of a sudden they look really, really good. So that could be a whole struck moment, or over time.   A: Or one of them gets caught in a rainstorm and is like soaking wet.   R: [laughs] Yeah.   A: Or all sorts of things. Or one of them is gnawing on the end of a pencil or eating a popsicle. All sorts of things. Or reading a book in a sexy way, I guess? I don’t know.   R: Reading books sexy, okay. Noted.   A: Yeah. Or reciting poetry, anything. Anything! LIke, having one character experience a deep, deep sexual attraction is another way of bringing them closer together.   R: And to put a point on it, the sexual attraction doesn’t have to be physical attraction. So it might be something where a philosophy that this person reveals is like the most amazing thing to the other person. Where, suddenly, the way that they’ve described—you know, it’s kinda like reading in a sexy manner or reading a poem out loud—suddenly this person is appreciating a new aspect of the other person that is not only something they were unaware of before, but appealing to them on a fundamental level to that character.   A: Yeah. That’s sort of related to having the connection between values. Like deeply held personal values. So, after—now you have them drifting closer toward each other, and that should be maintained throughout the rest of the book as they drift and drift and drift closer and closer together. Then, the next thing is that you can start testing them a little harder and putting them through bigger challenges and more serious challenges and—    R: The sorts of things that would’ve made them push apart completely at the beginning of the book because they didn’t have any investment in each other whatsoever, at that point.   A: Right. I would save that big, big one, the one that would’ve broken them apart at the beginning of the book, that’s your third one.   R: Well, I mean, the thing that would’ve broken them earlier is smaller than the thing that would break them later, so—   A: Depending on how you do it! Depending on how you do it, yeah.    R: Yeah.   A: But you sort of ramp up to bigger and bigger challenges. And you make them do things for each other that they definitely would not have done at the beginning of the book.   R: Right.   A: And then toward the three-quarter point, you have some huge test. That is about, either—that does require some huge personal change that would have been, again, unthinkable at the beginning of the book. Then, from there, you’re pretty much good. Usually at some point in the book, before that, you have them kiss.    [both laugh]   R: Accidentally or otherwise.   A: Accidentally or otherwise, or maybe they’re in an alley and they have to kiss to avert suspicion so that they don’t get caught spying on things. That’s one of my favorites, too.    R: Right.   A: And also it’s best, depending on the characters, they might talk about it or they might not. They might make assumptions about what they think the relationship is like or they might talk it out. If they talk it out, then usually there’s going to be some kind of, again, an obstacle, either an emotional one or an external one. They’re going to say something like, “I am deeply attracted to you, but here are the reasons we can’t be together: our families hate each other; or I’m not interested in having a relationship with anyone right now; or you’re super hot, but I don’t like that you are the person who you are.” Whatever, whatever. There’s a million reasons and they’re going to be unique to your characters anyway.    And then, so you have the big, big crisis moment towards the three-quarter point of the book, and from there, if you’re writing science fiction and fantasy then you’re gonna spend the rest of the time resolving your plot. And if you’re writing romance, then you’re going to be in the denouement by that point and you’re going to be wrapping up the actual relationship.   R: So, when you get to this crisis point and, as you’ve said, it’s unique to your characters and their situation, but what is it that is the crisis? Like is it some—If their complaints against each other were internal at first, is the crisis where they accept the internal, but now that there’s some sort of external that’s forcing them, that they’re facing a crisis with? Or is it not quite shifting poles at that point?   A: So a big crisis. This is sort of like the long, dark night of the soul. This is—I think there’s a technical term for it in the romance studies community and for the life of me, I can’t remember what it is—    R: But it’s kind of the all-is-lost moment, like if we don’t fix this?   A: Yeah! The all-is-lost moment, right. And in romance novels, specifically, I see this a lot of times as: we think the relationship is over. We think that the big,terrible thing has happened and has broken us apart. The thing that we were afraid of at the beginning, or the thing that would have shattered us at the beginning, happened and did shatter us. And because, again, we’re talking about momentum.   I didn’t realize that there was gonna be this much physics in this episode, Rekka. Yet here we are. Because relationships are all about psychics.   R: Mhm.   A: So there’s the explosion between them, and that pushes the two bodies in space apart, but then the gravitational pull is strong enough that, even though they’re being forced apart, they slow down and then they’re drawn back together. So I’m going to use an example from two romance authors who I like quite a lot. One of them is K.J. Charles and the other one is Alexis Hall. Alexis Hall—fantastic writer, first of all. I binged like five of his books in one weekend. And, binging five of his books in one weekend, I noticed that he has a pattern of he really likes his crisis points to be a huge, not quite miscommunication, because they’re not miscommunicating about anything. It’s one person being just a dick and saying something thoughtless and stupid and, usually, they haven’t noticed that their own internal values have shifted and changed and so they’re saying something that betrays how they thought at the beginning of the book—   R: Mhm.   A: —and they haven’t quite realized that that’s not their actual real opinion anymore.   R: Okay, that’s interesting.   [40:13]   A: Yeah, it is! Alexis Hall loves doing this. Alexis Hall does this in almost every book. So they say this thing which is petty and thoughtless and not actually aligned with their real values and the relationship is broken apart. The other person storms out of the room says, “How can you say this? How can you think this?” and they leave and oh no, it’s over. And then the first person has to confront the fact that, “Oh shit. I said that, but I didn’t mean it,” and—    R: And it’s only at that moment that they realize that they’ve been changing this whole time.   A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then—So that’s a really good way to do it. Miscommunication, like more classic miscommunication, is also a good way to do it. Where you misunderstand something that someone has said or you hear a voicemail or see a text from someone and it’s really affectionate. Who is this person? And it turns out, oh it’s just their brother.   R: Yeah, or grandma.   A: Not actually their lover. Or grandma or whoever, yeah. And so it’s this moment of thinking that all is lost and confronting the fact that you care so much about this person that it can hurt you so badly. And then doing the hard thing and putting aside your pride and your ego to reach out and succumb to the gravitational pull and admit that there’s something between you and want to fix whatever is wrong or explain yourself or have that really deep, important, honest conversation.    R: With the risk—because you think you’ve ended everything—with the risk that you’re going to be rejected again.   A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. The way that K.J. Charles does this—K.J. Charles has a more spectrum of varieties of ways to do this—one of the most recent K.J. Charles books that I read was Band Sinister which was fantastic! And in that, the problem is an external—Well, it’s a little bit of an external obstacle comes and crushes them, but also a little bit of an internal one as well. Because the external one is this family thing and also like an economic and class difference kind of issue. And the internal one is one person dealing with this external problem and the other person having this moment of frustration and, “Why can’t you just deal with it in this other way? Why are you choosing to deal with it that way?”   R: Okay.   A: Like, “Why are you being the way that you are?”    R: “Why are you letting other people dictate to you what we do?” That sort of thing.   A: Yeah, exactly. And the first person saying, “You can’t ask me to change in this way. I’m always going to be acting like this. You have to accept this about me.” And the other person storming off in a huff.    R: And the first person, as we mentioned, realizing, “Wait, no. I’m not always going to be like this? Because now I regret that.”   A: Well, actually, in Band Sinister—spoilers, spoilers, spoilers—But in Band Sinister, it’s kind of, it’s that this person, Person A, is behaving kindly to someone who absolutely would deserve them being a little bit more of a dick.   R: Okay.   A: And Person B going, “Why don’t you just be a dick to them?” And Person A saying, “That’s not me! I’m always going to be a kind and good person. That’s important to me. I’m not gonna just be a dick.”   R: Okay, so in this case we don’t want them to not be a kind and good person.   A: Yeah, exactly. I’m not going to just be a dick to this person because you think that I should be a dick to them. And it’s just as important, I think, to show someone sticking to their guns in a romance novel, you know?   R: Right. That’s that moral core we were talking about before.   A: Yeah, one hundred percent. And so they break apart and they have this moment of, “This is terrible, we really wanted to be together,” and then, coming back—Person B comes back and says, “You know what, you were right and I really value that thing about you. And here are some other solutions that I have that can fix the root of this problem. Rather than addressing the symptoms.”   R: Okay, all right. So I’m thinking about your tropetastic book.   A: Okay. I’m always thinking about my tropetastic book.   R: Yes! I read this about a month—today is the anniversary of the day I finished it, one month ago.   A: Yaaay!   R: So, as we record, it’s still pretty fresh. So the pair in your book, their major crisis seems to be that they get what they want, but they don’t think it’s what the other one wants.    A: Yeah, the major crisis in that is that—it’s an external crisis. It’s that they have gotten their hands on this one thing—Okay, actually it’s an internal one as well. So the internal obstacle, crisis, that they have to overcome is that they can’t admit that this person is the one thing that they want in the whole world. They’re having trouble getting to the point of admitting to themselves that they’re in love. And then the external thing is reputation and family and we can’t be together because of, again, class differences, kinds of things.   R: Yeah.   A: And we certainly can’t have the relationship that we have right now. We’re gonna have to give up this relationship, reform in a different relationship, and go from there. Even though this current relationship is the one that we really, really want. And one of them has this dark moment of the soul, where he is realizing that he is going to die. He’s not going to survive this. And he doesn’t—And he says, explicitly, he doesn’t mean this as a literal death. He means this as the Tarot card Death, which represents change. Like, catastrophic change. Where if he, being the person who lives through this thing that he’s about to live through, means that he will be fundamentally changed as a person. He will not be the same person, who lives through that, as the person who is standing here now. And he realizes, also, that the person standing here now is not the same person who was standing there a month and a half ago, because that person is dead, too.   R: Right.   A: And he has this big moment of, like, self-grief that he’s going to have to cope with this and live through this. And who is he going to be on the other side of this? So that’s kind of his dark moment of the soul, is accepting his own “death” in terms of metaphorical, figurative death. And then the other character doesn’t have quite as much of a long, dark night of the soul because—   R: His social stakes are lower, maybe?   A: His social stakes are a little bit lower and also he has anxiety and so he’s been having a long, dark night of the soul the whole time?   R, laughing: That’s true, yes.   A: And, well, he does have a small one where they’re on the verge of changing the relationship that they have and he stays up all night with an anxiety attack, thinking about how selfish he is that he’s putting this off and how he’s going to have to accept it. And he doesn’t think about it in the same way that the first one does because he’s so used to catastrophizing about things anyway. Because anxiety.   R: Right. Yeah, I was just gonna say: as anxiety does.   A: Yes, as anxiety does. Yeah, so the moment—Oh, wait no! His long, dark night of the soul is more like five minutes… less than that. Thirty seconds. Because it comes upon him, where he realizes that the relationship change is going to be forced upon him, and rejects it immediately. And it’s right at the end of the book when his sister is showing him the picture.   R: Mhm.   A: And so he is looking at this painting of something mysterious and looks over at his love interest and realizes, “I can’t go through with this. I have to keep him, no matter what.” So his long, dark night of the soul lasts like five seconds. Then he rejects it immediately and acts to fix it. Which is a huge moment of personal character growth, too, because he has had trouble acting and and fixing things and making decisions for himself and wanting things that are just his.    R: Right. And that comes out of his role within his family and his class. Is what his role has been has not been to put himself first.   A: Right, exactly. He is a person who makes so many sacrifices and who is very much used to living in a context of not thinking about himself and his wants as a priority. And so in this situation he absolutely does have to think selfishly, for once. Which is healthy for him, is the thing.   R: And finally does and that’s how you get your big moment of, of—    A: Yes! Triumph!    R: —these two have finally come together.   A: Correct, yes.   R: All right. And there’s still a little bit of putting up the classic resistance that they’d been using, up to that point, the external, like, outward-facing resistance of, “Well we really shouldn’t do this. We really shouldn’t do this,” but you can see that that resistance has already crumbled, they just haven’t accepted it yet.   A: Right, right.    R: So, what I’ve been wondering, as we’ve been talking, is how do you do this with one POV versus writing it with two POVs?    A: So I like doing it with two points of view because you can switch back and forth between them, and you can show each person’s individual emotional arc and the things that they’re dealing with and the things about themselves that need to change. Because, again, going back to doing personal growth and changing yourself to fit with another person. With a single point of view, it can be a lot harder and you have to do a lot more clueing and also—So I’m thinking, specifically, of Captive Prince. Have you read Captive Prince?   R: I have not.    A: You should read Captive Prince! It’s great.   R: Okay.   [50:00]   A: So, in Captive Prince, it is definitely—the romance relationship is one of the through lines of the series, and it’s one of the major focuses of the book. It does it with just one point of view characters and he is, he’s terribly smart, but he’s an unreliable narrator because he has biased opinions about how his romantic partner is, as a person. Also his romantic partner, as a person, is very much a Slytherin and does a lot of disguising himself and keeping himself blocked off and pulling away and not giving any of himself to the people around him.   So the issue there is that you have to—the reader has to understand what’s going on with both of them. That’s the challenge. Is that the reader has to recognize what struggles the non-point of view character is going through and what the point of view character is going through. You have to do this by not… So, you have to make the reader understand without—   R: So it’s almost a bit of foreshadowing, right? Because you have to foreshadow it and then confirm it with a big reveal that is inevitable, but up to that point you think this person’s being a jerk or you think this person’s a criminal, or whatever.   A: Yeah, sorta. You have to make the reader understand without making your point of view character understand.   R: Right, yeah, that’s kind of what I mean.   A: Yeah, yeah. Because they have to go through their whole emotional arc and if they understand things too early, then that’s gonna affect them. But the reader has to understand. So in Captive Prince, I think it takes like partway through the second book before the point of view character starts—Well, the point of view character starts being sort of vaguely sympathetic towards the end of the first book. Or at least starting to understand in a more intellectual kind of way why this person is the way that they are. I don’t know why I’m not using their names. So Daemon is the point of view character, Laurent is the other, non-point of view character. I’ve just been reading a lot of Captive Prince fanfic this week, so it’s kind of on my mind.   R: Right.   A: But it’s the perfect example of doing a romance with just one point of view character. Because Damen misses so much and so much just goes over his head. And Laurent is very much a subtle person who drops a lot of clues about what is happening and his personal, tragic past and so forth. Damen just misses all of them because Damen is a very straightforward kind of person and doesn’t expect Laurent to be dropping hints, in this way. So the reader picks up the hints, but Damen absolutely does not.   R: And, for the reader, the fact that your POV character’s not picking up the hints, matches what they know about that POV character.   A: Yes, yes.    R: Yeah. Because I’m just trying to think of how you balance—In the double POV, where you get to see both sides of this relationship in “real-time” as they’re each struggling their way through it, you get to play off: this person thinks this and this person thinks this, and the reader’s the only one that knows they’re having this misunderstanding.   A: Yeah!   R: Versus the single POV where you’re following what, in theory, would sort of be your sympathetic arc, but you can see that they’re wrong but you don’t know the entire truth on the other side.    A: Yeah, yeah. That self-discovery—or the discovery of the other, the non-point of view character, is part of the emotional arc, yeah.   R: And so, would you say that picking which way you wanna do it has as much to do with how you wanna challenge yourself to write it, as it does what’s appropriate for the—if there’s another plot going on in the story?   A: Oh, absolutely!    R: ‘Cause, as you mentioned, this one’s an arc about something else, over the series.   A: Yeah, absolutely. They’re definitely two very different challenges. I really like digging into characters and getting in deep about who they are. And so I like doing the two point of view. I think that I would find it really challenging to do a one point of view. Unless I was doing it in first person, but that’s a whole other thing! That’s a whole other story. Yeah. Because you have to have a really, really tight control over—You both have to understand what is going on with this other point of view character and you have to have a super-tight control over your point of view character to pull that off.   R: Mhm.   A: And you have to understand exactly where they’re going to have epiphanies about this other person and what things they’re going to miss or misconstrue or ignore, because that happens, too. Yeah, so they’re definitely both very, very different challenges.    R: I’m reminded of writing mystery. You have to place your red herrings, you have to place your clues. You have to have the real and then the moment and then the climax at the end where they finally catch the killer or, you know, catch the significant other.   A: Yes! Yes, one hundred percent. Writing a one point of view romance is very, very, very much like writing a mystery. Yes.   R: All right, now I understand it! I can think about the plot as a mystery! That actually fits. All right, cool. So we’re at about an hour and I don’t wanna keep you because you’re having a big day, as we mentioned at the beginning.   A: I am having a big day!   R: You have a cover reveal and I’m sure your editor is going, “Why aren’t you answering my text messages?” So is there anything else that you would wanna say to cap off this concept of writing, bringing two people together emotionally, binding them forever and ever until the stars collide?   A: Yeah! An interesting thought that I have is that you can use the romance emotional arc structure for relationships that are not romantic at all. Like, I could very easily write an Enemies to Friends book—and have!—which involves this kind of relationship testing, and choosing to build this relationship together. This is absolutely something that works, regardless of whether they actually end up kissing.   R: So kissing: not required.   A: But highly recommended! You know! [laughs]   R: Challenge yourself and try it out.   A: Yeah, yeah. For sure.   R: Congratulations, again, and thank you again for spending a very, otherwise exciting day coming onto our podcast and explaining how to make people kiss.     A: Yay. Thank you so much, Rekka!   R: Thank you!   A: Bye!   R: Bye.   [swishy transition noise]   R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram, or wmbcast.com. If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast. If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand.   And what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon!   [outro music plays]

Hey kids! Are you ready to sell out to make cash fast?!  In today's episode of We Make Books, we discuss what artistic integrity is, how to tell if you've blown yours to smithereens, and why it's 100% okay and good to make a living from your art. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns. Stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 33: Artistic Integrity and Suffering For Your Arttranscribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)[0:00]K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between! I’m Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.K: And, Rekka, as a writer—R: Which I am! Totally.K: Which you are, yeah, of course you are. You probably have a lot of opinions about what people tell you— R: Everything.K: Well, yeah, a lot of things in general. But, specifically, about other people’s opinions and them giving you suggestions and guidance and thoughts about what you should do, not only with your writing, but your life and how to support your continued writing, in your life.R, unenthused: Yeah. Yeah, they do that. So, you’re gonna intermix with a lot of people’s opinions over the course of your writing career. Especially as you let other people read your work. K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Right. When people tell you to change stuff, where do you plant your feet?K: Not only people telling you to change stuff, however, also what you’re doing with your life in the meantime to support your art.R: Mhm.K: We were thinking about this episode and thinking about this idea of what does it truly mean to be a writer?R: Mhm.K: And we start far clear of that definition—Or, we really steer clear of that conversation because I, personally, am of the opinion that if you are trying to write something professionally, that makes you a writer.R: Correct. I also agree with you.K: Yes, so now that we’ve got that established.R: If you’re listening to this podcast and then, when it’s done, you go and you try to work on your writing, you are a writer.K: You are a writer. Congratulations.R: If you just listen to this podcast and you think about writing and you never go write. Uh, we might have to debate that one.K: You’re a… future writer.R: Yes, hopefully. Hopefully an aspiring writer.K: Yes, there you go.R: To be a writer without a modifier, is to write.K: There ya go. But there’s also a lot of conversation around, like, well if you’re doing this then you’re not serious about your writing career. If you’re, you know, not focused 100% on only writing, then how could you be serious about your writing career?R: Which is funny, you know, because it just occurred to me—we don’t cover this in the episode—but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a family gathering, speaking of opinions, where they find out I’m a writer and they say, “Oh you should write _____.” Children’s book. A Gone Girl. You know, whatever’s hot at the moment. Their opinion is you’ve gotta write the most commercial thing that I’ve actually heard of right now.K: Yeah, yeah. So there’s—You’re gonna run up against a lot of this stuff in your career, as you interact with people. So we, in this episode, talk first about this notion of if you’re not suffering, you’re not writing. Which is silly.R, sarcastically: If you’re not abusing prescription drugs or if you’re not abusing alcohol, then are you even trying to be creative?K: Yeah, exactly. Then what are you doing? But then, also, we discuss having to make changes and modifications to your story at the recommendations of other industry professionals. So it’s all within the same subject, but we’re covering two different angles from this. The before and the after, if you will.R: With an intro of: Why do we have to suffer, again? K: Yeah! Thanks everyone, again, for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the episode![intro music plays]R, deadpan: Kaelyn, I’m suffering.K: You’re suffering?R: Yes. Because I’m supposed to.K, ironically: And do you know what? That makes your work more valid!R: I am, yes, validated and authentic because of my pain and anguish.K: … Except you’re not because— R: No. ‘Cause that’s bullshit.K: ‘Cause that’s not really a thing.R: I mean, yes, it’s possible that someone who puts out good work is also suffering, but I would like to posit that I wish everyone felt better and that we could all see, because we all feel great, that suffering is not required for good art.K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Or we’re going to try to.K: We’re going to try to. And what we kept coming back to is this idea that we seem to have a fixation on if you’re happy, you’re not making good art.R: If you haven’t cut off an ear, then you aren’t suffering enough.K: Well, I mean, look at tuberculosis. That was considered an artistic disease. People deliberately infected themselves with it because it was a slow, wasting, elegant disease. Of your body slowly breaking down and your heart not working anymore. R: Yeah. Lovely. Sign me up.K: Yeah, no. I mean that was… And, of course, it made you look like a vampire which was very in, in Victorian fashions, for whatever reason.R: It’s still kind of in sometimes, in some circles. Yeah, I mean, just give me some consumption and allow me to cough blood into my lace handkerchief on a settee and that’s how it works, right? K: Pretty much, yeah. You know the: [coughs softly] Oh goodness. I’d better tuck that away. I feel like every movie set in that era now—R: Someone has consumption, yeah. Both: Discreetly coughing blood into a handkerchief.K: And then, you know—R: Hiding it from their loved ones. That’s the ticket. That’s how you get to the Big Times.K: Look at Mary Shelley! She wrote Frankenstein while she and her husband and some of their friends were off seaside trying to cure his tuberculosis.R: Among other things.K: Among other things. So, anyway, you don’t need tuberculosis to produce good art.R: Please, in fact, do not try.K: We’re gonna start with this idea that levels of success in your life are dictating whether or not you’re a “real writer.” And there’s this very strong feeling toward: I am a writer, these are the things I will write, I will not do anything else but write this thing. And, if I need to, I will suffer for my art. I don’t care if I’m living in my parents’ garage living off ramen noodles. My art is my art, nothing is going to change that. I will suffer for it. Conversely, you’ve got some people who are trying to write what they wanna write and then also doing other things to supplement their income in the meantime.R: Right.K: And, Rekka, would you say that that is looked down upon in some circles?R: There are definitely circles that feel that people who write for IP which is, you know, a Star Wars book or a Minecraft book or a World of Warcraft book. Folks who write other people’s IP because it pays the bills are ‘selling out’.[07:19]K: Well, I wouldn’t even take it that far. You know, obviously, there is that component of the sell-out, but what about if you’re just picking up freelance jobs writing marketing copy?R: Right, so. Some people would probably say, everything you write that isn’t your greatest work of that time, is a waste of time, or is distracting you from being a better writer. Or something like that. Instead of taking the opportunity to say, pour your heart into everything you do and use the jobs that are not going to reward you artistically to practice something. Just writing all the time is always a good exercise if you wanna be a writer.K: Also, you know what’s nice? Money. R: Money is also pretty good. K: Money’s good to have.R: If you can pay for groceries, you can fuel your mind and body and then you might be a better writer.K: And, again, we did back into this notion of: doing something for the money lessens your artistic integrity. R: Right.K: There’s nothing wrong with doing things for money. Money is not a dirty thing.R: I mean, it’s physically pretty dirty.K: Well, yeah, no and there’s cocaine residue on a lot of it. But money, the concept of money itself—and having it—on its own, it doesn’t corrupt you. Being able to support yourself and live in a lifestyle that you consider comfortable, there’s nothing wrong with that.R: No, that should be what everyone aspires to and is able to reach, just by hard work. But that’s not the world we’re in. You know.K: Yeah, well, that’s a different issue.R: It’s a different episode. The Despair episode.K: But that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. There’s this mental block of: if I’m doing things other than creating my art, and I’m doing it strictly for the sake of the money, am I selling out? No, of course you’re not. A lot of people have jobs that they don’t necessarily love that you’re doing for the money. I mean, do you think I just wake up every day and go, “Boy. I really can’t wait to get on the phone and talk to people about network video equipment.” No!R: I mean, I assumed you do, but…K: Well, actually I do like talking to people, but… I’m doing this because they pay me to do this! And there is definitely this stigma in, I think, especially artistic circles that if you are working in some sort of creative or artistic endeavour, you must be doing it strictly for the love of doing it.R: Right.K: Rekka, you’re a graphic designer. R: Mhmm.K: Do you love everything you do?R: Absolutely not.K: Every project you work on?R: No, no. Not really at all. I mean, it’s not that I don’t love the work. I enjoy doing the process. I take pride in my work, but each individual project is not guaranteed to be something that inspires me and fills me with joy.K: Yeah, and so, why is writing any different? Because you can still take on a writing project that does not necessarily inspire you and fill you with joy, but it’s gonna pay you.R: I mean, you know what doesn’t inspire me and fill me with joy? Is the first draft? Can I just not do that part?K: That’s an excellent point.R: I mean, if I was going to be completely true to my artistic self, I would only revise and edit. And outline. I do like outlining.K, laughing: You do love outlines. But that’s the thing, is that your art is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now, if you need money, and you have other means of working within your artistic means to make that money, that does not make what you’re doing any less valid.R, outraged: And you know what’s just absurd is that an artist is only supposed to—their work is only supposed to be very, very valuable after they’re dead. Like, what kind of bullshit is that? That the artist is the only one who doesn’t get to profit from their work?K: Well, that’s because at that point they’re not gonna make any more of it.R: Right.K: Some, and I’ll take it an extra step in how it’s even more sick, is because your entire catalogue is now complete. So everyone can evaluate what you will ever make in your life against itself.R: It sounds like you’re defending not paying the artist what their work is actually worth.K: Absolutely not. R: Yeah.K: Just saying, this is why stuff becomes more valuable after people die.R: No, but I’m saying—becomes more valuable after people die because you know they’re not gonna make any more. People wish they’d acted sooner. Wish they’d discovered them sooner, whatever. But why can’t that artist make a living wage of their art and still be an artist?K: Well, I think there are—writers are a little bit unique in this. Because writers, I’d say, are one of the groups of artists that do make their money in their lifetime. I’m sure there’s probably studies and things out there about this, there’s probably always a spike of books being bought after a writer dies.R: Mhm.K: That’s to be expected. The same way that there’s people who watch movies that an actor was in, after that actor dies. Part of it’s a nostalgia factor, part of it’s a “Oh! I’d always wanted to check that person out!” and now they’re dead. I think artists, however, and—this is a little bit all over the place—If you think of the modern artists that we can name right now, off the top of your head. Who can you name right now, off the top of your head? R: Banksy.K: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was gonna say. I think most people will say Banksy.R: Mhm. Because of headlines.K: Because of headlines and because Banksy’s got shtick. The reason, I think, behind a lot of this—and this is something that does not apply to writers—is that artists that create paintings, sculptures, what have you, it’s not easily accessible to the community at large. The art community is pretty exclusive. I would go so far as to say snobbish, in some regards.R: Yeah. But, again, it’s in their best interest to be snobbish. K: Absolutely it is, yep.R: There’s like a false rarity.K: Yeah, and that’s the idea with art is that, in theory, they’re creating one painting and there’s only gonna be one of those ever. Writers, on the other hand, benefit from this great thing where, first of all, their work is incredibly accessible.R: Right.K: Especially in this day and age. And, also, once you make a book, you can give the same piece of art to a bunch of people. And they can all read it together and interpret it how they want to interpret it.R: From across the country, across the world. They do not have to be in one gallery looking at it for the two hours that the gallery is open.K: Yes. So, that also then puts some pressure on the writers, I think. Who are trying to navigate and discover and figure out their own art. I resent the idea that working on projects that are not your magnum opus for money makes you less of a writer, less of an artist.R: Right.K: Because why would it?R: Because if you’re a chef you better not ever eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese.K, laughing: I don’t think anyone should eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese, ever. But that’s, you know.R: Hey, it’s delicious. I don’t eat it, but that’s not because I don’t like the taste.K: Ah, see, I was never a fan.R: Oh, okay. K: My mom used to try to—I remember even when I was a kid, my mom would be like, “Oh, we’re having—” and my sisters and brother would be so excited. I would be like, “Can I just have a sandwich, please? I don’t think this is good.”R: It’s funny. My mom never bought it, so when I’d go to a friend’s house and they were making it, I would always be like, “Oh, my god this is amazing!”K: So exciting!R: Yeah.K: No, I was never a fan.R: So one of the things I need to point out is that “the dream” of being an author is becoming a full time writer.K: Yes.R: One of the things that’s very difficult to do is be a full time anything, if you’re not being paid for it.K, sighing: Yes.R: Somehow we haven’t worked out how to make that easy.K: Yeah. The thing is that no one is going to pay you enough money to live off of for the rest of your life, to sit and work on writing something.R: Yeah.K: At some point you’ve gotta produce something that can be sold.R: Yes. And the more you can produce that can be sold, the better, for your income stream predictability.K: Now, that said, the thing that you’re producing that can be sold, like my earlier example, might be market copy.R: Yeah.K: Maybe, you know, you do need to spend a lot of time still working on what is truly deep in your artist heart that you want to put out in the world. But, by doing that, you’re supporting yourself. And the people that are paying you to do it are, in a roundabout way, supporting your writing. R: Yeah! It’s pretty funny how that works, right? They are supporting your writing career, even if all they want from you is some marketing text of 300 words or less. If you get paid for that, that supports your writing career. When you can pay for the basic necessities of your life, your stress goes down and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to work on your writing. I know we said the Suffering Artist is an unfair thing, and that’s why. You can’t create if you are spending eighteen hours of every day tearing your hair out and six hours of every day not sleeping and creating fever-driven work. That’s not healthy and it’s not sustainable and it’s not kind that we’ve set up this expectation that you should suffer. So having your basic income needs met, through whatever means.I would happily “become a full time writer” and work six hours every couple of days as a barista or something like that.K: Mhm.R: I mean, to me, that’s actually kind of fun because I love coffee, I love talking to people, and I, you know, worked a similar job in high school. So, to me, that sounds like fun. That’s probably some people’s absolute nightmare and that’s why we have so many people in the world who can handle different jobs. Some people are better at it than others. K: There are people with my job that I think would rather walk into the ocean than do my job. I don’t think my job is that hard or difficult, in terms of my day to day. For some people it would be a living nightmare.R: So for people who can write all day, you probably still can’t write creatively all day. Coming up with your novel. If you spent ten hours at the keyboard every day on your novel, you would burn out. Because your brain just needs to switch tracks sometimes. If you can work from home as a full time writer, I don’t think you’re going to spend all that time working on your novel. It’s not like, “Oh! Now, with a day job, I write two hours a day. But now I’m going to be able to write ten hours a day and it’s going to make me so much more productive!” It may not actually increase your creative writing output by anything.But what you can do to supplant that is to continue to write copy, you can write non-fiction op-eds, you can write things that you can submit to Tor.com, kind of things.K: You can write book reviews!R: Book reviews, exactly! Articles on the industry. Get supported that way.K: Go back and listen to our episode from a few weeks ago about publishing reviews and publishing literature. Publishers Weekly has hundreds of people whose job is just to freelance write book reviews for them.R: Yup.K: If you want to remain in your realm of employ— R: Your wheelhouse.K: Yeah! That’s a great way to do it.R: And that was Episode 29: Industry Reviews. K: This notion that doing anything but working on what it is you want to publish is selling out, I think, is a very damaging mentality to have. I think it, long-term, could end up hurting your career.R: Mhm.K: And it’s certainly not gonna make you any friends.[20:19]R: Yes, and these might lead to new discoveries. The things you learn—if you have to research and write copy for something that you might never have researched—you might end up putting into a book someday. Everything you do is either writing exercise or just brain exercise, so I don’t think we should discount anything. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing, everything feeds your experiences and it comes into your writing later.K: I look back at weird jobs I had in college and I can’t believe the stuff that I picked up and took away from that. That was just to make some extra money while I was a student. Did that mean that I wasn’t very serious about my studies and I was copping out on all this? No, absolutely not! It meant that I was a college student and had no money and occasionally liked to drink beer and therefore needed money to get beer.R: Right.K: I don’t think anyone would ever accuse me of not being serious about becoming a historian because I tutored and worked in the library. And I don’t think that it’s fair, or even rational, to say the same thing about writers.R: Yeah! And your example is perfect because you tutored and worked in the library and these are things, actually, not all that far away from what you were majoring in.K: Yeah!R: I mean, it’s kind of like writing business copy or corporate copy or commercial copy instead of working on your novel.K: So now, that said, there is sort of a flipside to this conversation about artistic integrity and that is once you’ve finished something, now.R: Mhm.K: So you have suffered, you have struggled, you have rolled the boulder up the hill and now someone is interested in publishing this. Maybe you just even hired an editor to take a look at it.R: Mhm.K: And they’ve got some suggestions. R: Right. So this could be, like Kaelyn was saying, an editor, it could be an agent. It could be a beta reader.K: Let’s say you’ve got a completed manuscript, it’s in good enough shape that you’re gonna let other people see it. I’m gonna use the example, here, of an agent or an editor. Let’s say we’re dealing with someone at a professional level, at this point. They say, “Listen. I really like this book. The zombie dinosaurs at the end are a really great twist. Never saw that coming. I really like how the aliens show up at the beginning and they’re the ones who, it turns out, were manipulating the zombie dinosaurs the whole time. Got one little problem here though, at one point you introduce some hobbits. The hobbits just really don’t go with the story. I think you need to take out the hobbits and really shift this to complete sci-fi, rather than making it a little bit of a sci-fi fantasy.” But! If the hobbits are something really important to your story, in your mind, how do you approach this? And if you change that, what does that say about your artistic integrity?R: Right. So this is a absurd example of some of the possibilities—K, contrarily: No, it’s not. I’m gonna go write this book after we’re finished.R: Well, good! I hope you leave the hobbits in.[K laughs]R: But Kaelyn and I were talking about this before we started recording. I gave a more concrete, or more likely, example that she avoided. But I think what she’s doing is making a generalization and we can go into the specifics of where do you make these decisions. You have to be able to draw the line and know where your line is on the various things that you might be asked. K: Now, I’m going to stop Rekka real quick and say, when you draw your line, that means that you’ve gotta be willing and ready to walk away from something.R: Mhm. That might be an agent who was going to offer you a deal, but they just think you are too stubborn.K: That line has to be a real line for you. So, before you are willing to draw it in the sand and stick the stake in the ground, think really long and hard about how worth it that thing is to you.R: The nice thing is, in most cases, you’re gonna be able to have a conversation with the person making the suggestion to see what it is about the hobbits they don’t like. K: Like the big feet. They must be so gross, they don’t wear shoes.R: Yeah! Is it just that this editor apparently has a thing against feet and it’s just going to trip them up, specifically, or is it honestly the fantasy aspect of it. Is there a logical reason? Is there something that actually contradicts something else you’re doing in your book? If every other character in your book is a human, and everything is dealing with the humans and the aliens, and then these dinosaur zombies, maybe the hobbits do feel like they came from another book. And if there’s no logical explanation, someone might be able to debate you into seeing in that way. And saying, “Pull the hobbits out, put ‘em in another book! I don’t have a problem with that. But not this book.”K: Rekka was right, I made kind of an absurdist, general example because it’s just trying to give you a big picture idea. Things you are more likely to encounter, though, are going to be related to the marketability of your book. In that example, I had said, we want to take the fantasy element of this out and move it more towards a strictly sci-fi audience that we think will pick up on this really well. But then more controversial things could come up. What if, instead, the conversation is: this queer character is going to alienate a lot of the target audience.R: There’s an excellent question to respond with that: Do we care about that audience?K: Yes! So this is where I’m saying your line is. Because the thing is that if you’re talking to, for instance, an agent, or an editor at a publishing house for that matter, at the end of the day everyone is trying to make money off of this book.R: Mhm.K: Thankfully, a lot of the publishing market and the people involved have shifted where, not only is this stuff— R: Less controversial than it used to be, yeah.K: Not only is writing things that ten, fifteen years ago would have been a nail in the coffin for a book, it’s celebrated and encouraged now. People are looking for it. But someone might say to you, “Listen. This is a hard military sci-fi book. The people, this social commentary you have in it, that’s not going to appeal to this audience. They just wanna read about spaceships fighting each other near Jupiter. If you wanna sell a lot of this, take that stuff out.”R: Right, so if someone’s looking at your book and they see it as military science fiction, with an unfortunate helping of social commentary, when what you were doing was—Your vision was to have the social commentary as a throughline with the framing of this military science fiction genre, you two may never see eye to eye on this.K: And that may make them not wanna publish your book.R: And that may make you not want to publish with them! I mean, it goes both ways. If someone comes to you and they want to fundamentally change what you’re doing with the book, or in the case of the queer characters, if they want to strip out diversity or identity that you strongly believe in supporting, maybe walking away is the best option. People seem to fall into the trap of this may be the only offer I ever get.K: But, here’s the thing: it might be.R: It might be!K: And that is a very—And this is why I’m saying you need to figure out where your line is because, I won’t sugarcoat it, that could be a very hard decision for you to make.R: But, how do you make that decision? Try to picture yourself in five years, having gone with what the changes they suggested were. How are you going to feel about that?K: By the way, you may be totally fine with those changes. Maybe the agent says, “Listen, I want you to take the social commentary out of this first book. Just get a hard military sci-fi book going, build an audience, and then once you’ve hooked them, let’s absolutely go back and write that book.” Not everything is going to be a clear cut-and-dry, this or nothing. As Rekka said, you know, there’s probably gonna be a conversation here. There’s gonna be a talk about this, but it is something that you’re gonna have to decide. Is it more important to you to write the book that you had set out to write, or is it more important to you to get a book published?R: Right. Keep in mind that in these situations, where this is your first chance, your first debut book we assume. This does set the tone for the rest of your career. Under this pen name. There’s always a chance to debut again with a different pen name in a different genre, or just to start over. But if you do that because you regret the choices you made—Keep that in mind as you make the choices. If the choice isn’t a big deal to you. If, as Kaelyn said, it doesn’t bother you to make the requested changes then that doesn’t even come into play. Clearly, it’s not a thing you’re going to regret. But don’t do it because you feel like you need their approval. K: Now, also though, changing those things based on suggestions also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with an agent saying, “Listen, if you can make these small changes,” and you’re on board with them and happy with them, and the agent is saying, “Make these because it will reach a broader audience,” or “It will reach this more focused and fanatical audience and you can sell more books,” that also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with making some small adjustments to try to get your book to appeal to a broader audience. Because, again, there is nothing wrong with wanting to try to make money off your writing. R: Right.K: And to capitalize the ways that you’re doing that.R: As long as you’re not compromising your morals.K: Yes! Yeah, of course.R : If you, as Kaelyn said, if you can make these changes and be happy with them. If you make those changes and you hate them forever, that’s not the right change for you to make.K: Can you sleep at night, having made these changes?R: Right, can you sleep at night five years from now?K: Or is there a pit in your stomach every time you think about it?R: Yeah. If this is the sort of thing where it’s that moment you think back on and, no matter how far away from it you get, you’re embarrassed every time or you squirm in discomfort, then keep that in mind. K: One thing I’m gonna bring up from the publishing side of things. As a writer, do not think: “Well, I’ll agree with this now, but when it comes time to actually put this on paper and start getting it published, I’ll just leave it in there and fight with them about it then.” Don’t do that for a couple reasons.One, you’re gonna piss people off. And that’s just not something you wanna do. If you had a conversation with the understanding that you would do things in good faith, hold up to that. Because, conversely, there is probably language in your agreement that—R: That you are going to change those things.K: —that you are going to do this. It is not uncommon for agents and publishing houses to put specific things in contracts that say: blahblahblah, with the understanding that you will do the following. You will take the hobbits out of the book. You will not mention anyone’s feet. The zombie dinosaurs will remain zombies.It is not uncommon to find those kinds of clauses and stipulations and agreements. And the reason that publishing houses do this is because they’re used to dealing with authors and their protectiveness over certain elements of their story. So if you agree to something and say, “Yes, I’m going to make those changes,” guess what? You’ve committed to making those changes.R: Yeah.K: Even if it’s not in writing, you are going to burn a lot of bridges if you don’t.R: If they brought it up with you before they offered you a contract, it’s that important to them.[33:00]K: Yes, yes exactly.R: And—here’s the thing—we’ve been talking about all of this as though there’s a contract right in front of you that, like, you could sign this if you make these changes. You may also get revise and resubmit requests from agents or you may get rejections with some suggestions from agents, if you’re lucky. I mean, you might get form letters, too, but if an agent says, “I’m passing on this, here’s why ___.” Don’t necessarily take that as the next one will take it, if I make this change.K: That’s a very good point, yeah. R: Especially if it’s something that you feel weird about making the change on. Like, if you think making one agent’s request is going to get you the next agent, you are sadly mistaken. Everyone is an individual. We have not joined the Borg hive mind yet. So, therefore, what one agent says does not apply to all agents. Unless they tell you your grammar is bad. Then you can verify that. K: Yeah, that’s probably pretty across the board.R: But, yeah, so if they’re rejecting with some suggestions, that doesn’t mean you’re a shoo-in if you make those changes, for the next person. At best, you wanna evaluate, if you disagree with them, why you disagree, what that person’s perspective on it might have been, and then you can consider: maybe I want to go in and revise that section or revise that element before I submit again. But if you react in compliance with every criticism you get, you’re going to have a very exhausting writing life.K: Yeah, yeah exactly. So artistic integrity, I think, is murky waters for a lot of people because you want to sell your book, you want people to enjoy it. You want to appeal to a broad audience. One of the biggest issues, I think, a lot of books come up against is relatability. At the end of the day, no matter what, relatability is central to appealing to an audience. However, you don’t have to water that down to the point where you end up with a bland character who is a placeholder for anyone to insert themselves into. R: Right.K: That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about making this essentially a Choose Your Own Adventure starring— R: You.K: —the person reading the book. So it is a hard thing for a lot of people to navigate. But, at the end of the day, you have to go with the choices and decisions that are gonna make you happy and are going to make you satisfied with what you’ve put out into the world.R: Right. And, honestly, there’s a feeling in your gut that you know when you’re not happy with an idea. And there’s a feeling in your gut when you just feel silly that you didn’t see that change, you know? And they’re different. They come from different parts of you. So learn to identify how you take criticism. Maybe go out and find a critique group and just learn to take the hits and understand your reactions to them. That’s a good exercise. I mean, I would hope that someone’s read your work before an agent or an editor and a publisher, so if you haven’t gotten people’s eyes on it and gotten their reactions to it, it might be just a good place to start. To help process your own feelings about what people say. And it’s gonna be different from what the agent or editor says. That’s why we’re saying, “Would you make these changes for an agent or editor?” Because they’re the people who hold the keys to the next step in your career.K: And, again, I would just round out this conversation by reinforcing: it is not a bad idea to sit down and write down, for that matter, what the most important things are to you.R: Yeah.K: Is it most important to get your story, exactly how you have it, out into the world, or do you just first want to get a story out into the world, and get it in front of as many people as possible? Neither of them are bad. You just have to decide what’s important to you.R: Right. Neither is the wrong answer. But what’s your answer?K: Exactly, yeah. And it might be somewhere in between! There’s no—I shouldn’t be presenting these as binary options. But decide what’s important and work from there. R: So, basically, you need to identify your goals and then ask yourself, whenever you’re faced with a decision: which direction, or does this get me to my goal? K: Yep, yep. So that’s artistic integrity, our thoughts on it.R: Artistic Integrity: something that has riled people up for centuries. We covered it in thirty-eight minutes. K: I mean, what can I say. R: The simplest things get people very angry. So, as usual, you can yell at us @wmbcast on Twitter or Instagram—K: Yeah, tell us if we’re violating our artistic integrity just by having this podcast in the first place.R: And you can reach out to us with questions, also, or ideas for future episodes. You can find us at wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. This is Episode 33 now, so there’s lots to catch up on if you are just entering the stream now. You can also find us at patreon.com/wmbcast where you can support us for as much as you like, in order to give us a little financial nod of approval. And if that’s too much to ask, which we totally understand, if you could leave us a rating and review—and review!?—on Apple podcasts, to help our audience grow and help us reach more people so we can give them our opinions on artistic integrity.K: Ratings and reviews, they feed the algorithm.R: They do, they do.K: We are all beholden to the algorithm.R: And its appetites! All right, thanks everyone! We’ll talk to you next time.[outro music plays]

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about pirates and sadly, not those of the Caribbean variety.  The internet is littered with websites that sell (or claim to give away) pirated copies of books and addressing this situation can be a long and daunting process.  In this episode we talk about what kind of websites your book could end up on, what it is that the people that run them are after, and how to get your book taken down should pirates get ahold of it … this unfortunately involved a lot less of the ‘bribe them with rum’ tactic that we had hoped. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and if you’ve been spending your days in quarantine baking, tell us what you’ve made and stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Rekka (00:00): Welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. New Speaker (00:10): And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. New Speaker (00:13): So I know I've made a big Kaelyn. Kaelyn (00:17): Yeah, I mean I've done that for awhile, but, uh, is there any specific reason - Rekka (00:21): The day that I got the Google search term alert that my book had shown up on a pirate site, that's how I knew I'd made it. Kaelyn (00:28): It is a, it is a little bit of a marker in your career, isn't it? Rekka (00:32): Bingo square. I mean, like, it's not like I'm not gonna do anything about it, but, uh, you know, before I turn around and forward that email to my publisher and say, Hey, just so you know, please go take care of this. Um, I did bask in the having arrived-ness of that moment. Kaelyn (00:48): Yeah. It's, um, it's, you know, what did they say? SNL, Sesame street. Those are the big markers in your career. Rekka (00:54): I haven't made that one yet. I haven't done any of those pirated website, so I'm not, today we're talking about pirates, but not the awesome kind, not the kind in my books, the kind to take my books. Kaelyn (01:08): The kinds who take books and um, you know, put them on the website for all to, to read without paying for them, which as I think we've, you know, if you've listened to any of our previous episodes, we obviously come down very strongly against. Rekka (01:21): We don't like it . Kaelyn (01:29): Yeah. Kind of against that for various reasons. This was, a listener sent us this question, you know, asking about, um, pirates pirate websites, what you can do to prevent that from happening and what to do if it does happen. So, um, no, I think that's a pretty, there's a as much of a comprehensive walkthrough Rekka (01:38): Yeah. I mean, yeah, the problem itself is pretty simple. It's the solution that's kind of a bear. Yeah, exactly. Kaelyn (01:50): So anyway, uh, take a listen and um, as always, we hope you enjoy it Speaker 3 (02:08): [inaudible] Kaelyn (02:11): Well, I think we're getting this remote recoder thing, kind of uh, we're doing okay, right? Rekka (02:14): Hey, we're not coughing and we have no difficulty breathing, so it's a good song. We're a step ahead of a lot of other people at this point. Kaelyn (02:24): So, Hey everyone, uh, welcome back. We are, um, again recording remotely. Rekka (02:32): We are trying to uh, batch up some episodes. It's not that hopefully in the future you will say it, but the play gold meet lasted two weeks. Kaelyn (02:41): First of all, if it's a plague, it doesn't last two weeks. New Speaker (02:44): No, no, no. I'm sure it's fine. I'm in two weeks from now, we'll all be laughing about this. New Speaker (02:49): Um, by definition I think plagues must last longer than to be - New Speaker (02:54): Fine. You know, it never argue with an editor. They've got receipts in and the sources and stuff. Kaelyn (03:01): Well also when I was in grad school, I was a TA for a professor who specialized in history of medicine. So I had to TA a class, God, I think like three or four times. That was the history of plague and epidemic, Rekka (03:16): fFine, whatever. Or you're a semi expert on the subject. Kaelyn (03:19): Oh God, no, not at all. Rekka (03:21): We'll get out there and heal some people. If you're so smart. Kaelyn (03:22): We'll do. Okay. Rekka (03:26): Um, but anyway, yes. So we were, this is another one from the batch that we recorded, um, before my second surgery. So hopefully the world is a much better place as you're listening to this. Kaelyn (03:36): Well, the other side of this now. Yeah, but you know what doesn't make the world a good place? Rekka (03:42): Piracy. Kaelyn (03:43): Pirates. Rekka (03:44): See, I really subscribed to the romantic notion of pirates. I really want them to be good hearted people at their core that just work on the outside of regulation and law yet see that occasionally have like really exciting chase scenes with the law enforcement, but everyone ends up okay, Kaelyn (04:07): Well here's the thing about pirates Rekka and they're not really great people. Now don't get me wrong, in the early days of piracy, there was a lot to respected, possibly even admire. There was a, they were one of the first groups to have socialized medicine. Rekka (04:22): Right. Who were bringing it all the way back around. Kaelyn (04:27): And the concept of, um, worker's comp. If you were, uh, injured aboard a pirate ship and let's say you lost a hand, you were afforded a higher percentage of recovered booty. Rekka (04:38): Booty. Kaelyn (04:41): Now, that said pirates. Definitely were very into the pillaging, raping and maiming and above all stealing. Rekka (04:49): Yeah. Kaelyn (04:50): And in our modern day, that is what pirates continue to do now. So why are we talking about pirates? Well, this one actually comes from a listener who, uh, sent us a message and asked if we had any tips or tricks to dealing with people stealing your book. Pirates, putting it online without paying for it. Rekka (05:12): So obviously we're specifically talking about eBooks. Kaelyn (05:15): We are specifically talking about eBooks. If it would be really weird if they went out and bought physical copies of your book and then sold them online at that point, that just makes them a bookstore. Rekka (05:24): Right? So that makes them what a second hand bookstore. But no, you're right. So it's hard. The reason that, um, ebook piracy is so much stronger than print book piracy is because yes, those print books are, um, individual items that can only be resold or given away once. Um, yes, if they buy your book and then give it away physically, they are a library. If they buy your book and sell it, they are a bookstore and we like those people. We like both of those categories - Kaelyn (05:53): Those are great people. Rekka (05:54): Yes. But yeah, it's um, ebook, they get one file and they can give it away an unlimited number of times and that's a problem. Kaelyn, why is it a problem? Kaelyn (06:05): It's a problem because then you're not making money off the book. Now I'm going to head on - Rekka (06:09): Who's not making money off the book? Kaelyn (06:10): Everyone who was involved in the book that should be getting money from it is now not making money off the book. Right. Um, I'm going to head off this discussion right here by saying that there are a lot of people who will say that people who are going to go online and find pirated book versions of your book would not have bought it in the first place. Rekka (06:29): And this isn't actually 100% true. Kaelyn (06:32): It's not completely wrong. But yes, there is definitely a certain crowd of people that scour these websites, which by the way, we will not be naming any of them in this episode. The scour these websites, and that is how they consume books. They only get pirated copies online. And in those cases, yes, those people probably would not have bought the book no matter what. Um, that said there is a large segment as well that could go by the book and just wants to get it online for whatever reason. Rekka (07:04): Or just let, let me see if it's free first and then I'll buy it. Yeah, I'm using it as part of their budgeting system for their entertainment. Um, there is an anecdote, I don't recall who it was, but someone, an author, I think self-published uploaded their own book to a pirate site and inside it had the first two or three chapters and then at the end and explanation of why pirating costs that author their livelihood and a link to their website to go buy the book. Yeah. And apparently the response on the pirate site was, wow, that sucks. This book is really good. Now I have to go buy it and finish it. And a lot of them did. But chances are you aren't controlling this situation and someone else has uploaded a listing that matches your book's title and your author name. Kaelyn (07:58): So let's, as Rekka is kind of pointing to, let's talk about how and why your book may end up online. How's pretty easy? Somebody gets a hold of the digital file, assuming that they are able to get a hold of the digital file, puts it online for people to download. Who are these people and why are they doing this? Well, the answer is a pirates people who are trying to make money off of, um, giving your book away. Now, I'm saying giving your book away. But a lot of times that is not actually what's happening. And that is for one of two reasons. If you find that your book is showing up on a pirate website, there's a very good chance they don't actually have your book. New Speaker (08:39): Right. They are, they pulled some information off Amazon. Maybe they got a couple of the preview chapters off of there. They dump it in. And what they're actually trying to do is drive traffic to their website. Um, it could be primarily ad based, you know, some create websites that are just trying to get people to go there so that they can charge for ads. Right. Um, sometimes what they're trying to do is get you to sign up for a subscription for these supposedly free pirated books. Um, some of these are paid subscriptions. In some cases they just want your email address and information because that's also a very valuable market. Rekka (09:15): Yeah. They can sell that and they're not selling it to people who, um, who are going to do responsible things with that information. Kaelyn (09:22): Yeah. Conversely, if we go to even the further nefarious side of this, uh, they could say, okay, great, you signed up for free, here's the file, download it and that is a virus. Rekka (09:34): Yup. Kaelyn (09:35): Um, or that is some kind of, uh, key tracker or encryption breaker that is now going to take all of the information that it could possibly get from you. Rekka (09:45): I mean, I think it's a pretty reasonable piece of advice that if you're going to a website that is doing things that are unlawful, maybe don't trust downloads from that website. I mean, that's just me. Yeah. Kaelyn (09:57): That, um, that seems pretty sensible. Look at it this way. There is nobody out there who is going, you know what I really want to do? I want to give books away for free. I'm going to set up a website that is totally legit, completely above board where I'm going to steal people's books and put them on here so other people can read them. So the first that I'm going to set up a legit, totally above board website that steals books. Rekka (10:14): First of all, those two things don't happen in the same vacuum. Kaelyn (10:23): Yes, yes. And also some of you are going, wait a second, this sounds familiar. Yes, you're correct. That is called a library. Rekka (10:32): Yes. If you cannot afford to buy the book, go to the library instead. Here's a really, really, really, really cool fact. Libraries pay for the books that they buy. Yes, they do not return books, which is excellent for the author and the publisher also. Um, they have them in digital print and audio have available. So you can get the book in whatever format you want for free and you are actually supporting the author. Like if you, if you say, look, I really love this author. I read everything by them. I, you know, I hope they do well. I just can't afford books. Library. Please go to the library. Authors love it when they find out their books are in libraries and the library, if a book is popular, we'll buy multiple copies. Yup. It's amazing. It's almost like this is the way it was designed to work. Almost like the, I suppose the idea the whole time. Yeah. Oh yeah. So that is, that is the a hundred percent best alternative. If you meet a free book, absolutely. We support that. Go get it from the library please. Kaelyn (11:32): Yes. So all of them, uh, you know, just common sense. Should it imply here that any thing you're going to, to get something illegal could have some sketchy elements to it. And don't get me wrong, this is illegal. You are not, this is not something, you know, we're don't talking about books here that, um, you know, are part of the, uh, the common domain at this point. Rekka (11:54): But Kaelyn, information wants to be free. Kaelyn (11:58): This isn't information. Rekka (11:59): Right. This is IP. This is someone's property. Kaelyn (12:02): Yes. This is intellectual property. And you could say, I mean, now granted, you know, we both work in genre fiction. I'm talking, you know, we're not just talking about novels and uh, and fiction books. Um, you could say, well, somebody wrote this great book about how to, you know, build your own computer and I want to do that. Well, here's the thing. Somebody wrote that book and they did it for a reason. They put a lot of time and effort into it and the, there's no, you're not entitled to that person's knowledge and ability. Rekka (12:33): I mean, folks already complained that, you know, ebook prices cost so much and print book prices costs so much, but the fact is that it's still lower than the rate that they would give that book away if it was only being given away once. Like if an author wants to make a livable wage, they need all of the sales of the book at that price because the author doesn't even get a, you know, chunk of that. They get a sliver. Kaelyn (13:00): Well, and I'll take that a step further if you want to. You know, if you think the cost of a how-to book is too high, go take a class, see how much that costs. Hire somebody to come do it for you and see how much that costs. Rekka (13:13): Or buy a pre-made. Kaelyn (13:15): Yeah. These are people's skills and knowledge and intellect and time and time. They've worked hard to build and cultivate these things. This is a product the same way a farmer selling apples is selling a product, right? Um, so a lot of those lines up there is a very good chance that if you ever publish something, it is going to end up on a pirated website. And we at Parvus, I've had this happen a couple of times. The first time it happened we were almost a little happy. We were like, wow, we've made it on the map. Somebody actually stolen one of our books. Um, and then we were like, Oh crap, we better deal with that. So your book has shown up on a part at website. What do you do now? I am going to qualify this entire spiel of what is to come here. By saying that depending on aware the website is hosted in the world, I mean not just like, you know, what shady part of the internet. Rekka (14:14): Okay. Kaelyn (14:15): There may be very little you can do. Rekka (14:19): Right. Um, however, we are fortunate that a lot of, uh, cloud based servers and such are, are being used for hosting now and many of these are owned by corporations that will honor a take down request. Kaelyn (14:32): Yes. Now I'm going to use China as an example here because, uh, I then a cursory examination of this will show you that a lot of this comes up in China because, um, trade agreements and IP agreements and there's a lot of problems with China in general. Um, uh, reproducing. Yes. Things, let's call it that. Rekka (14:56): And I've run into this in the manufacturing world too. Kaelyn (14:58): Yes. Well that's what I was saying. Even in the manufacturing world, there is a lot of problems with dealing with things being stolen and remade in China and having no course to address this because China is not party to a lot of the international agreements that would give you recourse to address this. Rekka (15:19): Yup. Kaelyn (15:20): Um, okay, so that said, you find, you know, your book has shown up on an elicit website. The first thing that you can do is contact the website directly and just tell them, Hey, you've got this thing on here, this is mine. You've stolen it. Um, you know, if you're through a publisher, the publisher, you know, we've had to do this at our best, um, and demand, do they take it down? Okay. So then you're wrong. Well, how on earth do I, how do I do that? If a, you know, a lot of these, these kinds of websites aren't going to have the click here to contact us. Kaelyn (15:58): But, uh, so there's a great website out there called whois.com. Um, and what this is what this website is. It is just information about websites online and you can put in a website address and it's going to give you all of the information that it can about this particular website. Uh, the hosted platform, the domain, the registrar, everything. So the first thing you can do is go in and find the email address associated with the master account for the website and email them directly. Now who is, does do a thing where you can pay them to have that information, uh, privately blocked. And the reason for this is, you know, let's say like you've got a website and you don't want people to just be able to go find your email address in plastered everywhere. So it's gonna say something like privacy@gmail.com or privacy with some numbers at gmail.com. You can still email that what the address and it just redirects to the actual email address. The idea is just that you can't see it, Rekka (17:06): Right. So if you were trying to, um, you know, as an individual mask, as much of your private information as you can, when you register your domain name, it's cheaper to pay for a domain name privacy than it is to like register a PO box and have an address that isn't your home address and you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, this is a totally legit use of, um, privacy Kaelyn (17:31): I'd go so far as to recommend it setting up a, um, you know, an author website or something. It's probably not a bad thing to have. Um, okay. So, you know, people are probably at home scoffing going like, yeah, like they're gonna listen to that. Um, here's the thing. If what you're doing at that point is you're not really threatening them with legal action or you're not threatening them with the fact that they're giving away your book, you're threatening them with their website, you're threatening a business, a line of income at that point. Um, because, and the success rates here, you know, of course vary wildly, but one of the things you're doing is threatening their line of business. And how much of a response are you going to get for this? No way to know it. And again, a big part of this could depend on where this person is physically located in the world. Rekka (18:30): Yup. And if they're smart enough to make sure their host is also physically located there, um, you know, sometimes you're going to find these eBooks on legitimate bookstores. Like, um, people have found that their Kindle unlimited books show up in Apple books because someone has copied it and listed it for sale because they know that being a Kindle unlimited book, that authors not watching that book on Apple and then usually they find out because Kindle unlimited got mad at them and Amazon sent them a nasty note about it. So, um, when it's a legitimate ebook store, you're going to have a much easier time. But, but it's the pirating sites we're concerned about. Kaelyn (19:08): Yeah. Most of these are not legitimate sites. Um, so, all right, let's say you have not gotten a response back. You've threatened, you know, like whatever you need to throw in an order, you feel to get their attention. If they don't respond, the next step up now is to contact their hosting service. Now, as record said, a lot of places are cloud based. Now there's a lot of people who use hosting through Amazon or Google or any number of hosting platforms. Um, getting in touch with the hosting platform is going to have varying degrees of success. Um, part of it is that if they are using one of the larger hosting services, it's gonna probably take a while for someone to get around to looking at this. Um, conversely, if they have their own hosting set up, if this is a server that they've got set up, you know, in the back room at their house, and this is a 100% real thing that can happen. I mean, this is not hard to do at all. It's not expensive to go online, buy the necessary equipment and get it set up. It does not require a lot of overhead. It does not require a ton of power and you can keep a lot on those servers, especially when you're doing some, when you're talking about something like books, which are primarily text-based files. Rekka (20:29): Yep. A couple of megabytes each at the most Kaelyn (20:30): Maybe, if that. Rekka (20:31): Yeah. With pictures. Kaelyn (20:33): Yeah. With some pictures assuming that they have pictures because some of these, you know, Rekka (20:37): They'd probably strip a mountain, just deposit the text. Kaelyn (20:39): Yeah. This is where, you know, something else you would notice on a pirate sites is a lot of this is just a dump of plain, barely formatted into a document for you to download. Rekka (20:50): Yup. Kaelyn (20:51): Um, so if they are hosted through a major service or a cloud based service, you have some chance of getting some attention and some action there. Um, again, it could take a while and even then, depending on what it is, the hosted service may be somewhat limited in what it can do. So if that fails, the next question is, okay, what can I do after that? This is when you go to the registrar and you, um, Oh, registrar is a service that allows you to officially register your domain name. And these are, these services are actually regulated. Um, they're regulated by the internet corporation have assigned names and numbers and that is a long fancy way of saying that these are the people that give out IP addresses. Kaelyn (21:47): Um, these are the ones that when you know, for instance, when we went to get our website set up for, uh, this podcast, uh, WB cast.com we went through GoDaddy. GoDaddy is the registrar here. Um, they are regulated by an overseen by ICANN. This uh, internet corporation have assigned names and numbers, um, who oversees a lot of different registrars and make sure that they're keeping things above board and collecting all the right paperwork from the people who register and all that stuff and collecting the taxes. Exactly. The taxes and the fees are the real law. That's the good part there. Uh, now like you probably have heard about like, Oh, a is this domain name taken? You know how much you pay for these? The registrars are the ones that, um, like in the case of GoDaddy, they're notorious for buying, uh, domains and it's sitting on them and reselling them and uh, you know, that that's a legitimate thing you can do. Rekka (22:50): That's their business model. Yep. Kaelyn (22:52): Yeah. The next step up is to contact this registrar, um, and complained to them directly. In some cases you can call them and say, Hey, look at, you know, this, and if you're wondering again, how do I get this information and the hosted information for that matter, again, on who's who is.com, we'll have all of this in that search result. What you'd need to do at this point is to threaten or to actually file what's called a D M C a request the digital millennium copyright act. And what this is supposed to be doing is exactly what it sounds like. Something is violating my copyright of my book. This at this point is supposed to be a last resort and you need to that in any correspondence or conversations with the registrar at this point that you have tried everything else and you've exhausted all of your options. Kaelyn (23:56): You're now to the point that you have to go to the registrar to complain about this. Um, if you're to the point where you have to do this, you can find templates online suggesting you know, how to format this, what information to give them. And um, you know, how to direct this and who to direct it to. Um, Scribd has a good template for this. So there is one final, last step. It's not the same as actually getting this stuff scrubbed, but that has to go directly to the search engines to go to Google and to get them to do list. The search results. Do you list the search results? It's not making it. So the book is taken down, but it is making it so it is either harder or impossible to find. Right? So those are the stepwise parts here. Um, Rekka (24:51): And we'll link in the show notes. There's a really good article on the digital reader that covers a lot of this. And so we'll put those links in the show notes. We got a bunch of links for this episode. I'm just talking about the effect of piracy, the costs of piracy, that sort of thing. And um, and the, these are step-by-step you can follow along, um, in the digital reader's article, which is, which is really good. So, um, you know, you don't have to keep rewinding and writing down what she said, but, um, we always have transcripts too, but um, yeah, so it's, it's long, it's involved, but um, is it worth your time? Kaelyn (25:29): Well, you decide. Um, again, I will, I really want to emphasize that this is not an easy process. Even if the person is, let's say you're in America and this, uh, website is also hosted in America. It's still not an easy process to deal with all of this. Rekka (25:48): You got a D cross all your T's and dot all your I's to even get your email acknowledged. Kaelyn (25:53): Yeah. Now there, there used to be a service called Blasty. Do you remember Blasty, Rekka? Rekka (25:59): I've never heard of it. Kaelyn (26:00): Blasty was, um, it was, uh, I guess technically like a software bundle that you'd pay for and you'd put all the relevant information in and then it would basically do all of those steps for you. Rekka (26:13): Mmmhmm. Kaelyn (26:14): Uh, blasty does not exist anymore, unfortunately. Uh, they in last year had some very strange stuff happen with them. I still don't entirely understand. There was all of a sudden accusations of corruption and, uh, illicit payments being made and various things and then they just kind of disappeared. Their website is even gone. Um, which is a shame because it was kind of a good way to handle this if you were willing to pay for the service. Um - Rekka (26:41): Well there are services that will still handle sending your DMC notices. Kaelyn (26:46): Yes. Rekka (26:46): Um, they're going to be expensive, but it's because it's so tedious and because you have to stay on top of these things to make sure it actually gets handled. So, you know, if you're getting to the point where you really feel that the book sales that the piracy is costing, you are worth paying for a service to handle this. Um, which is not going to be until people know who you are to be looking for you anyway. Because what happens is these pirate sites, they pirate your books because they know that people are searching for your name and your title. Kaelyn (27:16): Yes. But in some cases, um, it's a, it's a volume game with them. Uh, they're gonna throw as many books as they can get their hands on onto one of these sites. Um, the, again, just if you're ever considering looking at or going to one of these websites, first of all, don't, but second, think about the people sitting on the other side of this. They are not doing this out of the goodness of their heart. Yes. Um, Rekka (27:47): they're not doing it because due to unforeseen circumstances, they could not complete their library degree. Kaelyn (27:52): Yeah. They're actually, what did that be? Something. Rekka (27:57): These are all rogue library scientists that just couldn't finish. And - Kaelyn (28:01): I was unfairly kicked out of life, my librarian program for giving away too many books. Rekka (28:07): I gave away too many books if they didn't like it. Kaelyn (28:09): So now I'm on the other side of the law. I will never stop, be stopped from giving away books. Um, there was a story. Um, but the people who are doing this are not doing it because they are rogue librarians out there giving away books and stories and information because they love to, they have ulterior and often to furious motives at best. They either want you to want to get your email and information or they want you to click on pages so they can make money from the website. That is the best case scenario Rekka (28:47): Yeah, that that's the least harmful case. Yes, it gets worse from there. Kaelyn (28:51): It gets worse. And I mean, viruses, identity theft, they are absolutely selling your information. Don't delude yourself into thinking they're not. So stay away from these websites for a lot of reasons. One - Rekka (29:07): Because you're a good person and you want to support authors and publishers Kaelyn (29:11): Yeah, because they suck and the people that run them suck. And you should not be stealing people's work and putting it out there for the world without them being properly compensated for it. If you want books and you cannot afford them request them from your library also, there's this great thing you can do with a Kindle and eBooks. You can share them. Rekka (29:31): Yup. Some of them to front some of them. Kaelyn (29:33): Yes. But like sometimes you can, you can loan them to friends. Um, there are other ways of getting these that are not jeopardizing not only the writer's livelihood, but also their ability to produce and create in the future. Rekka (29:50): Yep. And I will say for, you know, there are areas where it might be like distant from a good library or something. All you need is a membership to a library. And usually the only thing you need for membership to library is to be a resident of the same state. So if you can sign up for a library in your state, even if you can't walk in because it's not that close, once you have that membership, you can take it to I think, Libby or overdrive. And um, that's how you get the eBooks. And I mean, your library might have their own service, but basically it's usually Libby or Overdrive and then you can search under, you know, quote unquote under your library for the books you want. But it's coming from a large pool of books that are out there. And sometimes they're all checked out because that's how libraries work. But you can just get in line for that book and you can read it and when it comes available. Yep. Kaelyn (30:39): So that's, uh, that's kind of the, the story with pirates. Um, unfortunately they are not all ambling around doing bad Keith Richards impressions wearing a lot of very heavy eyeliner. I hey, don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. Rekka (30:59): Um, yeah, I prefer the black sails. Uh, pirates these days, even though pirates of the Caribbean did inspire my novel trilogy. I will say that, uh, the black sails series, if you haven't watched that, go watch that. If you want, if you want to get involved with pirates, go watch that. Um, leave the pirate sites alone. Um, yeah, I will say, you know, you have some hope if you find your book on a legitimate site or a site with a legitimate host. Um, there has been some advice in the, and Kaelyn, you know, alluded to this at the very beginning of the episode, um, in the self publishing community that says, um, Hey, these were never your, uh, your readers anyway. Don't worry about it. Just be happy that your book is out there getting exposure. Um, I disagree with that. Um, I think self publishing authors are probably going to start disagreeing with that too now that it's getting more competitive and um, it's not quite the, you know, boom days that it used to be. So, um, I think it's worth your time to try and get them removed. Um, it's also legally a good thing to be doing to defend your copyrights. Yeah. Because if you don't defend your copyrights, then you know, the law sees, starts to see things differently than you might imagine they would. Kaelyn (32:19): There is, um, you know, the, and this is very subjective what I'm about to say. Uh, there is the case to be made that let's say down the line, you do actually end up in court over something, be it related to this or not. And the question comes up, well, you saw that people were this stuff before, didn't you? Well, why, why is it bothering you now? Why didn't it bother you then? Right now that said, this is a very time consuming and often mentally draining process. Um, so the, it is completely understandable to throw your hands up in the air and say, I just don't want to deal with this right now. Rekka (33:01): So you might be wondering, Oh my God, is my book already out on pirate sites and Oh my God, do I have to spend every morning crawling pirate sites in order to see if my book has popped up? Because what will happen is if you have a like peer-to-peer piracy site, they might take it down one day and then five minutes later or the next day or a week later, it's back up. So how do you know, um, some of them are behind a paywall, like we mentioned some of these pirate sites or subscriptions. So the only way to know what's in their data bank is unless they make the DataBank public, but you can't download unless you logged in. Um, the only way to know it would be to pay and it's, you're not going to do that. You don't want to support that. Um, but what I do, and I know Parvus does for their authors is set up a Google search term alert. So just put your author name in and your titles of your books and then you get an email. Kaelyn (33:51): We keep the Google search term alerts for numerous reasons. Basically, you know, we - Rekka (33:56): And sometimes that's how you find up the find out that a review is posted. You know, Kaelyn (34:01): you know, if Rekka's name suddenly starts popping up in conjunction with, um, you know, things like police arrested, Rekka (34:08): Hey, now she's not a lot of faith in me. I just learned this is a, um, this is a moment, hang on, I gotta I gotta recover from this. Kaelyn (34:19): It's okay. They have a Google news alert set up for me too. I'm really the one that they're waiting for - Rekka (34:22): Yeah, you're the one that's going to get in trouble first. Kaelyn (34:25): It's associated with a terms like "bizarre incident" and "neighbors say" Rekka (34:30): And explicable. Kaelyn (34:33): Yeah, no, of all of the people associated with Parvus, I am far and away the one most likely to end up on the news. Rekka (34:39): Yeah. Kaelyn (34:43): The New York post. Rekka (34:45): But anyway, yeah, but so what I'm saying is, is set a Google search similar and forget it, you know, move on. And what's going to happen is you are going to get notifications of things like reviews and it's just as a quick aside, if it's a negative review, that doesn't mean you have to respond to it just because it came to your inbox through a Google search alert. You're just going to leave that - Kaelyn (35:06): Go back and listen to the reviews episode. Rekka (35:08): Don't do it. Just don't do that. But yeah, so that's a possibility with um, with those search term alerts. But they are good for helping you learn when someone has listed your book. Um, because pretty much that's the only way I learned since I'm not going to be found on a pirate site, even though I love pirates, but just not that kind. You were on a pirate site, huh? Thought some was on a pirate site. Yeah. Yeah. But I found out through the Google search term cause I wasn't good. No, I meant I personally, my personal habit not to spend any time downloading from pirate sites. Yes. Kaelyn (35:41): I was going to say flotsam was absolutely on a pirate site. That was one of our first real, uh, I was the one. You were the first one we found and then we found Vick's and, we, and we were like, I wonder what else is on here? Oh shit. Everything. And that's, you know, that's the thing is that so many books end up on these things. There are people whose jobs are only two. They just, this is their lives. They just scour websites, scrape the internet, try to come up with this stuff. I've put it on a website Rekka (36:14): Do you think when they were young and someone asks them what they want to be when they grow up, they thought I'm going to be part of the book protectorate. Kaelyn (36:21): Pirate. Rekka (36:23): Pirate? Kaelyn (36:23): No. What? They said - Rekka (36:25): They probably said pirate and now instead that they're they're calling and defense. No, I'm saying the person whose job it is, this is their career. Their paid position is to go in and send, take down notices. Kaelyn (36:37): I like, I like that. I always should get them a badge. Official book protector. Rekka (36:42): Yes. Member of the protector. It, yes. I like it. Yes. Um, okay. So uh, I think that Rekka (36:50): Hopefully that answers the question. I mean what do you do to prevent it? You don't, yeah, there's really nothing you can do because the Stephen King books are there. Like you can't be big enough to be too big for this. You can't be small enough to be too small for this. Kaelyn (37:04): No such thing as the size of an audience or the size of a publisher that is going to prevent this from happening. Right. So, um, uh, I think we mentioned it earlier, uh, Jason Kimball had, uh, sent us that question, so, you know, thanks Jason. We always like questions and answering them on this show. Um, if you have any questions that you'd like to send us, Rekka (37:27): You can send them to us @WMBcast on Twitter or Instagram through the DMS there. You can send a emailed questions to info@wmbcast and you can find us also on patreon.com/wmbcast and all of our back episodes are at wmbcast.com and we'd love to hear from you, even if you don't have a specific question or you just want to react to the episode or start up a chat with us, you can do that on Twitter. Probably is the best bot. And, um, if you do not want to engage with us, but you want to shout about us to the world, you can always share our, um, our episodes with a friend who might find them useful. And you could especially please leave a review or rating, especially a review on Apple podcasts. We love reviews, so that would be super helpful and help other people find us and love our show as much as you do. So thanks again for listening and we really appreciate you and we hope your books never show up on pirate sites.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week’s episode is little bit different.  Apart from the state of the world, Rekka has some personal news that she’d like to update everyone on. This, of course, leads to our topic for the week which is personal setbacks. When there is major event or change in your life, how do you cop and how do you keep writing? When is it time to take a step back and consider stopping?  No one can answer those questions for you, but on this episode we talk about our own personal experience and offer some advice. We are all living in uncertain and while it is often frightening and overwhelming, we can all be there for each other with help and support as we adjust to our new normals. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your favorite way you are passing the time while social distancing and sheltering in place – stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Kaelyn (00:00): Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. New Speaker (00:08): And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:12): And uh, this is going to be a very short intro because of the beginning of the show is kind of the intro. Um, the theme for today is, I'm sure you can tell from the title of the episode is we're talking about personal setbacks and um, Rekka has been experiencing some of those. So rather than spend a lot of time talking about the episode right now, we're just going to jump right into it and uh, give Rekka a chance to kind of give everyone an update on some things that have been going on in her life. New Speaker (00:37): So slight pause for music. Speaker 2 (00:46): [inaudible] Kaelyn (00:52): Okay. And we're back. Not that we ever went too far to begin with - New Speaker (00:58): Except this time you didn't even bother coming over to my house to record. Kaelyn (01:02): It's true. You may notice that, uh, this episode sounds a little different in two ways. One is that we are recording over the interwebs. New Speaker (01:11): Due to an overabundance of caution. Kaelyn (01:14): An over abundance of caution. There's two reasons for this. One obviously is coronavirus Hey, yeah, everyone is self isolating. Um, I as I'm sure those who have listened before know I live in New York city. Um, things here are mostly fine, however they are kind of recommending that we all may have been exposed and not be aware of it. So to kind of keep your interaction with other people to a minimum. New Speaker (01:41): Yeah. Plus trains are kind of filthy to begin with and Kaelyn getting on a train concerned me for Kaelyn's sake, but also what might come along with her. Kaelyn (01:50): And that was a particular concern for Rekka. Rekka (01:54): I am now immuno-compromised. Kaelyn (01:56): Rekka is officially immuno-compromised. at this point. Um, so for those of you who, you know, follow Rekka on Twitter or maybe even follow her on Facebook if you're involved in her writing groups, um, Rekka has been posting us some information with some health updates, but I'm not, not too much. New Speaker (02:14): I haven't give the whole story in public yet. Kaelyn (02:16): Exactly. So, um, you may notice Rekka also sounds a little bit different. New Speaker (02:20): Slightly a little bit of cotton ball in the mouth kinda - Kaelyn (02:23): I think you sound great honestly. But, um, so without too much more beating around the bush, let's kind of get into Rekka what's been going on with you? So, uh, this all started back in may. New Speaker (02:36): No, no. May was the nebula's had already been going on since March of 2019. So this is a year, this is the one year anniversary of me going, Hmm, something's wrong. Um, I, I was working on salvage at the time, actually, no, I was working on cast off and I decided that um, Sophie, a character in the books had a tattoo her chest and it was trying to decide what that tattoo might be. And a friend of mine suggested, I look at the music artist LP because she has a very large ship tattooed on her chest and, and so of course then I check out the music, love the music, sing along with the music in my home studio, which is very sound isolated. And I knew no one could hear me at the top of my lungs for a week and a half. And then I lost my voice. This all seems very normal, no reason for concern other than like maybe don't do that next time. Um, but in trying to rest and relax in my voice, I started to realize this is not happening at the right pace. Rekka (03:41): This is taking a really long time. Yes. I'm also recording podcasts. Yes, I'm going to conferences and um, and we both came back from the nebulous pretty sick. Right. So, I mean at that point I didn't think that anything was really wrong, but by the time I was ready to go to, uh, my day job's conference in two weeks after that, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna make an appointment for when I get home just to get this looked at in case. And, um, so I ha I had that appointment after the next conference, which of course I also came back from very hoarse. So that primary care physician said, well, have you ever tried not talking a listener? I fired that primary care physician, but she did recommend that I or she did refer me to an ENT. So I went to see my ENT. Rekka (04:30): ENT says, um, so describe your symptoms to me. I'm like, well my throat is really sore and I've got this bump under my jaw and she barely touches the bump. She scopes my throat. She says, well you might have done some vocal cord damage, but it seems to be healing. Here's a list of things to avoid for acid reflux. You're done. Kaelyn (04:49): Which by the way, if some of you may already know, Rekka is keto. So then on top of this she was limited to basically soup. New Speaker (04:57): That was not the case - Kaelyn (05:01): That's what it seemed like. New Speaker (05:01): However at that point. I did cut out caffeine because caffeine was on the list. So I'm like, all right, well that makes sense for acid reflux. If I am trying to heal my throat, it would probably do me, you know, some good to avoid these things. So I avoided them for a very long time and it did seem to improve. Um, so I thought that was the end of it. Cause the ENT certainly thought that was the end of it. Like they didn't say, you know, call us in a month and let us know how you're doing. And they didn't follow up that, you know, that was it. They scoped my throat. They said don't eat these things. Nothing wrong with you other than that you're young and healthy. So that's already July. Cause it took me that long to realize like, Hmm, it's not just my overuse of my throat. That is a problem. You know, but it was resting. They, the acid reflux stuff seem to be helping. It would still wear out pretty fast. But I'm not even sure that that's actually related. I just think that's the small health problem that got me thinking closer about the overall health problem as tends to happen. Kaelyn (05:57): It turns out, however, that this was not acid reflux. There was actually a pretty significant health. New Speaker (06:02): I mean there might've been acid reflux, but it was unrelated to the, the underlying health problem. So I, um, I vacationed in October and while I was away, I scratched what was at that point, a two week old tattoo. And over the next week that we were still on vacation, that tattoo got kinda red and inflamed and hot to the touch and, and from to the touch. So that tends to indicate an infection. So when we got home, I went to my primary care physician again, this was the new one. And she said, while you're here, any other complaints? And I'm like, well my throat's been feeling better but this bump under my jaw is still there. And so she immediately zeroed in on him, bless her. And um, she was like, okay, well I will say if she was up front, she's like, there is such a thing as a salivary gland tumor, but it's very rare. So let's start with salivary stones. Cause apparently that's also a thing I'd never heard of that. Kaelyn (07:05): Like I'm learning all of these things that can happen in your neck region now. New Speaker (07:09): No kidding. But like also the technician at that location had salivary stones. So it's not that uncommon. It's really bizarre. Kaelyn (07:17): So watch out for salivary stones, apparently just drink lots of liquid. New Speaker (07:22): I think that that helped the instruction she gave me for the salivary stones, um, was to suck on sour candies, which as we've mentioned, I'm keto. So I was just sucking on lemon wedges and then, um, to use hot compresses. So after like I'd say two weeks or so of really being diligent about sucking on lemon wedges at least twice a day and doing the hot compresses, my tongue went numb, which is not what was supposed to happen. And, um, so I went back to her and she said, I am sending you back to the ENT because, um, now we are not, we are not worried about salivary stone so much anymore, but they will be able to order your imaging and, uh, find out what it really is. Rekka (08:10): So this is middle of November and this is the point at which we start to have holidays for irregularly. So I wonder how much faster this would have gone if we weren't constantly timing around holidays. So the CT scan came back that it was not a salivary stone. Uh, the two possibilities now are infection and some kind of neoplasm, which is the, uh, term that they like to use instead of tumor. And, uh, so the next thing was thankfully the ENT just called me and said, now we're putting in orders for an ultrasound with fine needle aspiration. So they sent me in for an ultrasound with a needle biopsy and that came back and conclusive the needle biopsy was, the needle was so fine. They basically didn't get big enough samples to see anything. So we killed two more weeks because by the time I got in for that, a week from the needle biopsy was Christmas. Rekka (09:03): So he got the results and he said, ah, they're inconclusive. It's not an infection though. It's some kind of neoplasm that may or may not be a, you know, a carcinoma. So then they, um, faxed over all my information to an ENT and the ENT called me back just after new years. So now we are past all the holidays and things start happening. And so I saw the ENT and he was the first person I, I will say he was amazing, the first person to actually like grab on to my throat and really feel around everyone else was touching it, like - Kaelyn (09:37): Gently poking. New Speaker (09:38): Like they were afraid I was going to break. I'm like, how can you feel anything? Yeah. And he really did. My husband was there and he was super impressed with how he just like went in there and he was feeling my lymph nodes as well. So, um, we felt really good after seeing him and he said exactly what I wanted to hear at that point. I mean, I was sick of this and he said, uh, we won't know what it is until we get a bigger biopsy sample and if we're getting a bigger biopsy sample, we're taking the whole thing out. He's basically, he said then the next step for diagnosis is also the treatment. Then it was waiting to have their scheduling department call me. And so finally the waiting was over at the end of January. Um, the last time we recorded was like two days after I saw him for the first time. So we didn't know when the surgery was going to be at that point, but he did make it sound like it was going to be pretty fast and it was um, basically they called me on a Friday and it was, and they, um, had me in on Tuesday for the surgery. Rekka (10:38): And um, so plan, plan a was just to take out the um, the tumor while I was still under, they did identify cancer cells. So that meant, you know, the full surgical possibility it was going to be enacted, which was to remove 40 of 50 lymph nodes, um, from my neck. So they did that. So the little scar that they were promising me, which actually was sounding really disappointing at the time, is now a very, um, very large scar that I have much pride over. Kaelyn (11:10): It's pretty badass. New Speaker (11:11): It's very bad ass. I didn't want a eh, kind of scar. But this one, this one says screams cancer survivor. Kaelyn (11:19): I think it screams Ninja attack survivor personally. New Speaker (11:23): Yeah. It just kind of as some, another author who saw it put it, it looks like someone slipped my throat and I got up and killed them. Kaelyn (11:31): It's exactly what it looks like. Rekka (11:35): Um, yeah, so it's pretty bad ass. Uh, I thought at the beginning of this I thought that um, based on where it was bothering me, I thought the scar would run vertically over the side of my jaw and I was getting kind of excited about this space, pirate kind of a scar and um, and then when I realized that they were going to run, it was going to be horizontal and they were going to run it parallel to my job. It was like, no, I don't want it now. We don't want the surgery. I wanted that scar. It turns out if they put the scar where I wanted it, I probably would have lost all muscle control and that side of my face. So maybe for the best, maybe we let the doctors and surgeons decide where the scar goes. Kaelyn (12:06): Fine. What like they know what they're doing or something? All of this is to come back to say you came out of the first surgery and were given the diagnosis? Rekka (12:15): Yeah, yeah. Well, worse. Um, my husband was given the diagnosis and he had to give me the diagnosis, which just about broke his heart. So the diagnosis that my husband had to deliver to me was that yes, I had cancer. Um, I kind of knew it because when I was waking up, they did mention you had a lot of, or you did a big job. I don't remember the exact words, but basically I knew that it wasn't the small incision. I knew that they'd gone for everything and knowing that they'd gone for everything meant I knew what they found. I don't know how I may use this much logic coming out from under general anesthesia, but I understood within moments of me becoming conscious again that, um, my neck had been got wide open and that meant that they found cancer cells. So my husband having to tell me this, he didn't actually, like, I wasn't hearing it from him cause I had already figured it out, but he was, he was very upset and he said, um, you know, it's bad, but, um, the surgeon thinks we're, you know, we're not going to have any trouble beating this. Rekka (13:20): You know, they've got a plan. The diagnosis that came up with the final biopsy of the surgery was, was that it was a stage one, which meant early in the cancer's life, however high grade, which meant it was very aggressive, uh, adenoid which means it was in salivary or mucus glands, cystic meaning a tumor, carcinoma meaning cancer. So, um, stage one, high grade adenoid cystic carcinoma of my left submandibular salivary gland. So this is what I'm dealing with, the bump in my throat. Oh, the bump on the outside of my neck, which I only found because my throat got sore. Um, turns out was not a swollen lymph node that was irritated by my other stresses and illnesses, but it was a tumor that had probably been there for awhile. Um, but it took until, you know, the biopsy was complete before I had my final diagnosis, which I'd been trying to get all last year. Rekka (14:16): So it was, um, I will say it, it hasn't been a stressful journey to even just get to this point and there was a lot of relief and just having a diagnosis and a plan. Kaelyn (14:26): That's a very, that's a very common thing with um, people who have been dealing with, uh, chronic and ongoing symptoms that no one can quite tell them what's wrong. New Speaker (14:37): No one believes anything is really going to be that problematic cause I'm young and healthy. Well guess what? Cancer is not really healthy, so stop using that. Kaelyn (14:45): Well, think about what your life and your mental state must be like to be relieved to hear that you have cancer. New Speaker (14:51): Like how frustrating is this process that you are like, good, good. Now we can do something about it - Kaelyn (14:55): Oh thank God, it's cancer. New Speaker (14:56): Okay. Well, okay, I will say I never had that phrase pop into my mind. Kaelyn (15:01): Um, but yeah. Well, so you know, speaking of, uh, next steps and plans and dealing with things. Um, we are recording a bunch of these right now because Rekka has a step two of, of this treatment coming up. Rekka (15:17): The thing they warned me about when I came out from the first surgery was that we might need to do surgery again. Um, and "might" was really more of a, yeah, we're going to do that. Kaelyn (15:27): We're going to be doing this. Yeah. Rekka (15:29): Basically the nerve that they took, um, runs up and merges with another nerve at a certain point and they found a cancer cell above the point where they branch out. So they are going down the other branch. Now that branch goes through my jaw, they probably would have taken it if it didn't, but because I had only signed off on a couple of things, uh, pre-surgery, they could not, uh, keep going and get it all done in one day. So, um, they waited for the final biopsy, they waited for a pet scan. And, um, at that point they said, we really recommend that you have this, um, left sagittal, uh, mandibular split osteotomy. I think those are the words, what it means, like actually verify what it means is that, um, they're going to do a controlled fracture of my jaw so that, um, they can get in and get the nerve out that's inside left mandible sagittal split osteotomy. Rekka (16:34): I think that's what I said that is, so basically if they have to take more than four centimeters of the nerve that's in there and this is a pretty significant portion of my jaw, um, I would say at least 10 centimeters if not, you know, 12. Um, if they take less than four centimeters, that means that they can graft it and I might retain feeling in my face on that side. Cause where it comes out of the jaw is just below the corner of my mouth on the left side. And that's all the feeling on the left side of my mouth. And you know, the obviously the feeling in my jaw on that side. So there's a chance that, um, I guess what they'll do is section the, uh, the nerve and see if they see any cancer cells. And if they don't, then they'll stop and graft it. Kaelyn (17:21): So, uh, listeners, by the time you hear this episode - New Speaker (17:24): It will already be done. Kaelyn (17:24): Rekka will have already undergone the surgery. She will be on the road to recovery that said Rekka is going to have her jaw wired shut which you may suspect is counterproductive to recording podcasts. Listenter you would be correct. New Speaker (17:40): I mean, they have told me that I could talk through my teeth, but it's really not great radio. Kaelyn (17:43): You're going to be an amazing ventriloquist by the time all this was done. So yeah. Um, we're recording a bunch of episodes now. Um, and hopefully, you know, in a month, a couple of months Rekka will, uh, be well on the mend by then and um, Rekka (18:03): Hopefully the quarantines will be lifted, the plague will be over. Kaelyn (18:06): That's a whole other, that's a whole other issue. New Speaker (18:08): So also because of this upcoming surgery we told Kaelyn, even though we invited you over for corn, beef and cabbage. Um, nevermind, sorry, we love you, but please stay there. Kaelyn (18:18): Yup. Which I mean, was the smart responsible adult thing to do. New Speaker (18:22): Certainly. Kaelyn (18:23): Um, so yes, Rekka is now officially amongst the, uh, the population of immuno-compromised people that need to be taking this very seriously. Um, yeah. Rekka (18:34): Not to mention that after the surgery, six weeks later I'm going to start radiation. Kaelyn (18:37): Yeah. So, um, we are, uh, we are isolating. We are trying to minimize the spread and risk of contagion here. New Speaker (18:47): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:47): But, um, so Rekka (18:49): While also keeping the wonderful content that you expect from this podcast going. Kaelyn (18:53): Yes. Rekka (18:54): So along those lines, speaking of content, uh, as we mentioned at the, in the brief intro, uh, we're talking about personal setbacks today and, and Kaelyn suggested this and she was talking professional. Kaelyn (19:08): I was talking professional setbacks and we are going to talk about those eventually. Um, but we realized that Rekka really hadn't had a chance to explain to, you know, her loyal and loving fans. Rekka (19:22): Not that I owe you an explanation of my health situation and we recognize that you might be protesting is like she doesn't know what's that and that's fine. And I love you for thinking that and um, but the uh, you know, this is going to impact the show. It's going to impact my writing. It's going to impact a lot of stuff. Yeah. So, um, I wanted to talk about it and um, Kaelynknew that you would be concerned for me and wish me well and wanted to give me a chance to tell you what was going on. Kaelyn (19:49): So, um, yeah, that's it. Uh, where, uh, going to have limited access to Rekka's, voice in coming weeks and months. Yeah. So, Rekka (19:56): so we have some contingency plans. We're going to do what we can to not make the podcast feel like it's getting all that different. But um, you know, it may have to at certain points Kaelyn (20:07): And we'll keep you posted and updated and you know, like I said, Rekka is going to learn to throw her voice really well. So, you know, look forward to some upcoming new characters. Rekka (20:17): I might even fill in Kaelyn's role sometimes if we can't get together to record that she's going to do both of us. Kaelyn (20:25): So, um, yeah. So Rekka, you're, we're, we're going to shift a little bit to an interview format here, um, where we're going to talk about personal setbacks and how that impacts not just your life but especially your writing. So Rekka, overall, how you feeling right now about all of them? Rekka (20:42): Well, fuck, I mean, come on. I, I am very positive about my health. I am 200% fucking stubborn to let anything like this stop me. Kaelyn (20:53): When we had first heard about this and I had gone up to, uh, to visit Rekka, uh, her husband, Matt and I were sitting up talking and I looked over at him and said, you know, the universe is going to have to drag Rekka kicking and screaming from it. Right? He said, I know. And it's like, okay, just so we're on the same page here, I know you're doing, you know, you are handling this. I mean I can't, I don't want to say handling it better because there is no better or worse when handling Rekka (21:22): I have my moments like that. Kaelyn (21:26): You are addressing this in what to me is an incredibly admirable way. But as you said, I'm sure you've had your moments. Rekka (21:35): Yeah. And honestly, you know, thinking about this in terms of the writing, the, the way that I am dealing with this is allowing myself not to be as productive as I expect to be. Um, well that was, Kaelyn (21:49): Yeah, that was my next question is so you know, obviously your life and your health is the first most important thing Rekka (21:55): And it has to be and if you want to get through it, you have to prioritize things. So yeah. Kaelyn (22:02): Secondarily though, um, this is obviously going to be impacting your writing and the way the rate at which you produce. Um, now I think for a lot of people listening to this and a lot of writers out there would say, well to me I find that kind of a relaxing thing if I've just got to sit around anyway, I plan to do a lot of writing and for some people, depending on what the setback might be, maybe you lost your job. Maybe there's um, you know, other health issues in your family that directly don't directly impact you. If we're getting is an outlet that you can use to calm yourself and to, you know, get some me time in there, then that's fantastic. However, and I think Rekka can speak more to this. Manage your expectations. Rekka (22:46): Well, not only that, um, yeah, definitely what you're saying is manage your expectations because losing your job may give you lots of free time, but it also gives you extra anxiety and suddenly, you know, you feel like all your free time needs to be going to finding the next job or you're spending your free time, brain processing power, worrying about bills and what's going to happen with your insurance or your loved ones if they depended on you. I mean there are so many reasons why having more free time is not, you know, suddenly and unexpectedly is not a good thing. Um, and you know, worrying about your family. Let me tell you, I can watch my family around me. They are having a harder time with this than I am. They are con they're preoccupied at all times with what's going on with my health. Yeah. And um, so even if it's not you, even if it's something going on where you might, um, think I should be able to write more, cause I've got lots of time to do it in you brain, just need you to sit and process it. Kaelyn (23:48): This is, you know, and we've talked about this in other episodes, um, the time that you need to just sit and think about things in your writing now take that and apply it to, you know, for instance - New Speaker (24:00): Dealing with a major crisis. New Speaker (24:02): In Rekka's case dealing with cancer. Um, I think that, you know, it is good for a lot of people to try to maintain a sense of a normal schedule to not, you know, have your life completely upended, but you have to acknowledge that your life is going to be completely offended and be okay with that and be okay with that. Rekka (24:26): Like acceptance is so much of this, um, understanding like I used to get up every morning at 5:00 AM and write for two hours before I started my work day and then I knew whatever else, you know, went on that day. I'd already gotten my writing done. Um, [inaudible] I started when things got kind of like, Ooh, something's wrong here. I stopped waking up that early, I started letting myself sleep in cause I'm like, all right, my immune system needs some help. I stopped drinking. I enjoy a glass of gin every now and then. Um, I haven't had any alcohol since my tongue went on. Basically. I said, my immune system needs everything I can give it, you know, and he's all hands on deck. Um, I got serious about, you know, my physical fitness, which of course now I can't because I have a scar that's still healing. So, um, I got as fit as I could before my first surgery. Um, because your muscles are really key to your immune system and um, you know, I tried to do everything I could to, um, to prioritize my health even before I knew what this was and knew the long haul I was in for. Kaelyn (25:34): Again, this is the prioritization is really important. Um, your health is really important. Your mental health is very important. Um, personal setbacks can come in all ways, shapes and forms. I will, um, I will say that, uh, last fall I had a really rough last fall. Um, I had about a month where nothing really major happened, like the, you know, I didn't, for instance, end up diagnosed with cancer. Um, but I had a couple of deaths in the family really close together. Um, I changed jobs, which, you know, I didn't lose my job and that was still just very stressful dealing with all of that. And you know, then I had, um, also some health issues. I think I had mentioned on the podcast one time when I sounded particularly scratchy, I got strep throat in the middle of all of this and all of these things individually, you know, would be something to just deal with that a jury summons. Kaelyn (26:38): So real quick, this is, this is a quick, lighthearted, funny story. October 17th was one of the, what is now most comically bad days of my life. Um, my, uh, my uncle had died. I came home from the funeral and I had been coughing a lot. I hadn't been feeling great. So my cousin calls me, I'm on the other side of the family, which is why she was not at the funeral, just to be clear. And, uh, I had spent the previous weekend with her and she says, um, Hey, I just want to give you a heads up. I have strep throat, she's a teacher so she's around children all the time and they're constantly infecting her with stuff. And I think to myself, God damn it, and I had just resigned my job a week before this. I had two weeks left before I started my new one. I was like, I don't have time for this. Kaelyn (27:26): So I went straight to the clinic. They did a rapid strep test. So they're like, Oh yeah that's strep throat. But good news, you caught it pretty early. So you know, it's, so I go home and sitting in my mail is eight jury summons but not just a regular jury summons, eight grand jury summons. Um, the difference here for those wondering is a grand jury is the group of people that sits together and listens to prosecutors, give evidence and decides if they have enough to hand out an indictment. It is a minimum of 20 day service and this is not a situation where you can show up in a princess leia outfit and insists that you shouldn't be on a jury because you're a hologram and they'll send you home. They don't care if your name gets pulled out of the thing you're serving on a grand jury, which I want everyone just to keep that in mind if you're ever thinking of committing a crime. Kaelyn (28:15): So the day I was supposed to report for this was the first day of my new job, so thankfully I was able to defer it. Um, but to really round out the story, I'm sitting at home, I have like a glass of wine. My one of my friends came over and you know, I was just watching the football game and all of a sudden I hear all these lights and sirens outside. The short version of this story is I go downstairs and there are six firefighters standing outside with axes debating whether or not it's time to break down the door. I want you to think about what I looked like coughing, crying, bleary-eyed in sweatpants. Ma'am, ma'am, have you been inhailing smoke ma'am? Kaelyn (29:08): So apparently what happened was there was a, um, when you rent buildings in New York, you have to have a thing that if certain alarms go off, it automatically calls the fire department. And this one shorted out and called the fire department. So anyway, the whole point of this is, is that, um, by the end of October I, I came up for it to record a track. I go to the Halloween party and I was a wreck. Like just the stress of everything going on. Even though nothing that bad and permanently life-changing had been happening. This is all a very long way of saying that you need to figure out what it is that's causing you stress and take that into account when you have these kinds of setbacks. And don't try to just write it off and tell yourself it's not a big deal. People have it worse than me. I should just put my head down and do this. Cause that's what I did. And let me tell you, Rekka (30:02): It extended your pain for sure. Kaelyn (30:04): It was, it was not a productive way of handling all of this. Yeah. Rekka (30:08): And my not knowing what my issue was was really affecting my mental health. I should also mention that I'm in the hospital after my surgery. I got a grand jury summons. I mean they didn't send it to the hospital, but the week of my surgery, um, I had surgery on Tuesday and on Friday arrived a grand jury summoned, um, this is apparently they are waiting like something in your mental health is pinging the government to send you - Kaelyn (30:38): to be like, yes, this is somebody who should decide whether or not people go to, have to go to trial. Rekka (30:43): And I don't know if I told Kaelyn this yet. I think I did. Um, since then my husband has gotten jury summons, but just regular, just a regular look. The, the local court. But yeah, I mean, are you kidding me? What is going on? The actual outbreak is jury summons. Kaelyn (31:02): So yeah. Well speaking of outbreaks then and things that are stressful, um, I, so I deferred, I last week got my grand jury servings again. I'm, I'm supposed to show up on March 23rd and um, I don't know what's going to happen with all of this. Rekka (31:17): Right. And that was another thing that was in the hospital, right. As the, you know, we were getting the first understanding of how big this was in China. Um, you know, when they were no longer able to conceal the numbers, um, that was on the news while I was in the hospital. Kaelyn (31:35): So, um, along those lines, and this is going to be one of our rare timely episodes because I'm, Rekka (31:41): Yeah, this will date us. I mean, here's your time capsule if you're coming from the future. Kaelyn (31:45): Yeah. If you're listening in the future, but for those who, you know, keep up to date with us, this is a rare, timely episode of it. So a personal setback that a lot of people are going to be experiencing now is dealing with this coronavirus situation. Even if you don't have it, um, your life and your movements are gonna be restricted. Um, Rekka (32:02): You might be working from home, which in theory you have more time cause you don't have to commute. You don't have to bother, you know, putting on clothes or putting on makeup if you don't want to, which you know, it's up to you if you do it. Honestly, you know, I think we should do an episode on working from home optional, but um, you know, now you've got the stress of like, how is my family, um, am I at higher risk? What exposures have I been exposed to? You know, like now you have all this time but you are stressed in the social media stream. Might be a good time to turn that off because you know, you've got all this constant barrage of updates and numbers and um, media coverage for better or worse. Kaelyn (32:40): Yeah. And beyond that, um, this is going to start impacting writers in very real ways that everything's getting canceled. Rekka (32:48): Yup. Um, conferences. Kaelyn (32:50): Conferences, writing groups of, you know, just general events, just general meetups. Um, you know, this is something that, you know, needs to be taken seriously, obviously. And thankfully people are, cause this is, you know, incredibly contagious and large gatherings of people are not great for that. However, this is going to impact your writing and this will be a personal setback for a lot of people. Rekka (33:16): Yeah, yeah. Personal on a national and global scale, but it's still, you know, it affects, you personally don't feel guilty for having negative feelings about this. Like, you know, Katelyn was saying, don't feel like other people have it worse than me. I mean, don't go out to tell other people who do have it worse than you that they don't, but you know, be accepting of what you're going through. Kaelyn (33:38): Be kind to yourself about this. It's okay to feel down about things and be disappointed. Rekka (33:43): It's like grief. If you try to put it off and put it off and put it off, you're still gonna get hit with it. Um, so the stress and anxiety over the situation, it's like acknowledge it and work with it. Not, don't try to wall it off. Kaelyn (33:56): Uh, because I'm going to curtail that into kind of our last talking point on this, which is this kind of thing will affect your writing. Um, there are a lot of very famous stories out there about authors writing things when they were in a bad place. Rekka (34:11): Yeah. Kaelyn (34:12): And how it comes through in your writing. Rekka (34:15): So even if you manage to maintain your productivity, it's going to probably change the tone and Tomber of your, of your work. Kaelyn (34:22): Yeah, exactly. So if you, you know, and when you're dealing with, you know, in in wreck case for instance, you know, really significant illness, um, you know, keep that in mind as something that is affecting you. Be aware of this because if, I mean, who knows, maybe this, this will, you know, inspire your writing. Maybe this will work for the better. Um, one of the examples I always use is, um, J K Rowling famously saying she almost killed off Ron in one of the books, out of sheer frustration and depression. Um, you know, thankfully if she did it, but, um, these kinds of things can come through and impact your stories and your characters and your writing. Um, if you want them to and you just want to run with it, that's fine. But you know, it never hurts to also just be, be mindful of what your mental health is doing. Rekka (35:17): Yeah. Kaelyn (35:18): So, um, that's, you know, as we wanted to kind of use this episode as an opportunity to update but then also discuss something that everyone is probably going to deal with something like this at some point in their life. Rekka (35:38): Yeah. And we didn't get to it yet, but, um, what I will say is that the person and the, and the energy and the health and the productivity that I had before this all started, I will never have that again. This personal setback is not a year and a half of dealing with cancer. This is after I come out of the cancer and it's gone. I still am missing 40 lymph nodes. I was still have gone through radiation and I will never be the same person again. New Speaker (36:05): Your immune system will forever be compromised. New Speaker (36:07): My jaw might be weaker, you know, I might have to watch out like no more bar fights for me, you know. Kaelyn (36:12): Um, which is a shame because that was one of my favorite activities when coming to visit you. Rekka (36:17): But the, um, you know, the life that I have when this is done is not going to look like the life I had when I started, which was my expectation when I wanted to get through this and get back to my life is what I used to say. Um, it was a big revelation for me to realize that my life is going to not be the life that I thought it was going to have. Um, that doesn't have to be negative. If I can accept that whatever my new normal is, is now my new normal and work with it. And I think that's true for everyone now. Like your setback may not be permanent, but if it is, you're going to be okay. . Kaelyn (36:56): Yeah, it's, it's a very difficult thing for a lot of people who experience, um, be it, you know, lost trauma or illness to accept that a lot of times you are going to have a new normal. Um, very rarely can you just get through something and jump back into your life the way you did. Because if nothing else, you have mentally come out of this change. Yeah. You are never going to be the same way you were before. And pretending and trying to be that way is probably not healthy. Rekka (37:30): Right. That's, that's how we bury our traumas. That's how we, you know, overextend ourselves. If it's a physical, um, capability that is now lower, um, yeah, being okay accepting that the Rekka of, you know, July, 2020 is someone I haven't met yet. Um, but that I, I will be living with is, um, it's, it's going to be the, the real triumph here. You know, beating cancer isn't up to me. I have a team of people who are going to do that. My job is to be good to myself, to allow myself the space I need to heal and to um, accept the person that I am being transformed into because that's all I can do. Kaelyn (38:16): Yeah. So, um, well that's to add real quick. Rekka your prognosis is very good. Rekka (38:21): Yeah. Yup, yup. They're not too worried about it, but it does mean like for the rest of my life, every three months I'll be getting MRIs and you know, scans of one kind or another because they've got to keep an eye on this. It can pop up again, can pop up in a month, that can pop up in 20 years. So this is, this is my new normal is every three months I've got to take some time out to go get a scan, which means now I am very concerned about what's going on with like national health insurance, which has added an anxiety, you know, so, um Kaelyn (38:36): eah, there is, there's absolutely when dealing with this, with anything that is a personal setback, there's a butterfly effect and there's things that are going to come out of this that you won't even think to consider until they're happening non-skiers down the line. But just to, you know, end on a more positive note record. Your prognosis is very good. Rekka (39:11): My prognosis is excellent. Um, everyone's very confident that we can take care of this. Um, so assuming everything goes on schedule, like I said, I will have the surgery, um, by the time you're hearing this, it's already happened and I'm out by a few days. Um, six weeks out from that I start what they're expecting will be six weeks of radiation. Um, basically 12 weeks out from the start of radiation is what is going to be my new normal. And then I won't know until then. So that's like end of July. Kaelyn (39:40): But in the meantime, you have, all of us here. Rekka (39:43): I have amazing support from friends and family and love and support you and, um, you know, we'll of course be thinking about you. And my publisher has been kind enough not to ask me for the draft that they owe them. Kaelyn (39:57): Well, because weirdly enough, you've had a little bit of a personal setback. Yes. Rekka (40:01): Um, the, the writing has been, as I said, I stopped getting up at 5:00 AM so nevermind the mental fatigue of, of dealing with all of us, but I also have less hours in the day, um, because I'm trying to give myself eight hours of sleep every night minimum. And, um, that has definitely impacted the time when I would normally get up and write. And that means by the time I get up in the morning and get to the computer, it's time to start my work day. Uh, what I didn't mention, you know, I'm not a full time writer. I have a day job and I've been missing a lot of time from work for surgeries and treatments, which means that I'm also way behind at work. Um, I know you said you wanted to end this on a positive note, but that was something I meant to mention before. It's like, it's not just, um, you know, can I keep my spirits up and um, give myself the time to get back to writing. Rekka (40:52): It's like I'm, I'm overtaxing myself trying to stay on top of the work because I have another surgery coming up and I'm going to be further behind when I come out of that. So that's a stress too. And so if you don't have, um, you know, total control of your time, then you gotta, you gotta deal with that. And then of course if I did work from home in my writing, not writing would impact my income. You know, the income I rely on. So it's, it's, um, it's not a great situation to be in whether you have a full time job, although I'm very fortunate that I have, um, very understanding employers who are not counting my PTO with regard to this. Um, and I'm being very well taken care of. But having said that, um, our, my, the company I worked for, their largest income earner is a conference, which is, you know, that's the whole thing comes back around to. Kaelyn (41:51): Again, it's a whole butterfly effect, everything is, you know, everything's going to be a, we're going to have to wait and see how it goes. Rekka (41:56): And it's an election year. Kaelyn (41:57): And it's an election here. Rekka (42:01): All right, well, I don't know if we really supplied a lot of answers, but it really does boil down to be understanding for yourself and others around you. Of course. Um, make the time to process and don't try to wall off, um, your anxieties, your fears, your medical conditions from your writing. Um, it's okay if your writing looks different during this time, whether it's your writing time, um, whether you no longer can go to the cafe safely. Um, whether you, um, don't get the writing time in that you want or whether your writing itself starts to feel different because you are processing in your words what's going on inside you. And maybe if you feel like that's undermining something that you were already working on, write something new, you know, write a couple of catharsis short stories and um, do a brain dump. Um, I happened to know that McSweeney's is dealing with a lot of, uh, apocalyptic short fiction right now coming through in their submissions. Um, and it's no wonder, uh, we're just going to all be processing this. Kaelyn (43:14): And we'll be seeing a lot more of it now. Rekka (43:17): Yeah. And the good news is everyone around you kind of understands right now. Um, some of these, yeah. And some of these personal setbacks are going to happen in the future and unrelated to this outbreak and unrelated to, you know, uh, current diagnosis. Um, sometimes it's grief, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's, you know, work-related. So no matter when it happens or in what capacity, you really just do have to take care of yourself, make room for you to feel what you need to feel and process it. Um, and forgive yourself for not being the, you know, mega productivity robot that you think you should be. Um, you're a human. Your health comes first and that includes your mental health and, um, yeah, I mean that, that would be what I would advise and, you know, talk to someone, therapists, um, pastors. Rekka (44:13): Um, there are a lot of people who can, um, help you process this and you know, friends even, you know, if you have a good community of supporting friends, uh, you know, right now we're all going through it, but there will be times when you, there is somebody who's in a good place and able to take on an emotional burden and really help you. Um, and when we're all going through it together, then we all help each other. Kaelyn (44:36): Aww, that's very nice, Rekka. Rekka (44:39): Thank you. Kaelyn (44:39): Um, well, um, on that note, yes, that's a good, that's a good note to end. Rekka (44:45): Okay. That one there. We'll stop there and I won't provide more horrible information. Kaelyn (44:51): Um, well thanks everyone for listening. You know, as we set this up, this episode is one of our few timely ones and um, you know, we always try to do stuff that's a little more like question and answer or research driven, but this one, you know, with not only what's just going on in the world but what's going on with Raca seemed like a good, a good topic to discuss. So hopefully you're leaving this feeling a little better then when you came in. Rekka (45:15): But um, as always, thank you for listening and you can engage and find us online@wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. You can find us at Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast and if you are finding this helpful and you are able, um, we have a Patreon that we would love your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. And, um, if that is not financially viable for you right now, of course, you can always support us by leaving a review on iTunes or Apple podcasts and letting other people know that you liked the podcast or what specifically you liked the podcast for. And that will help other people find and subscribe to us. And if you haven't subscribed yet, of course, please come. Subscribe, subscribe. We always forget to say that one. So yes, we will talk to you in two weeks. And, um, thank you all. I know that I can count on your emotional support, um, while I'm going through this. And, um, some of you are already aware and have reached out and it's, it's been really helpful and I really appreciate you all. Kaelyn (46:24): Please feel free if you are looking to emotionally support Rekka to tweet her pictures of cats and sharks. We like sharks, Rekka (46:29): Sharks especially. Um, yeah, definitely. Kaelyn (46:35): So, yeah. Alright, well thanks again everyone and we'll talk to you two weeks.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! It’s our first return guest! Miri Baker joins us again this week to talk about something we should all have in our lives: boundaries.  It’s not a secret that the world is overwhelming and constantly vying for you attention.  But even things that you love like social media and writing groups can start to have a negative impact on your life if they’re not kept under control.  In this week’s episode, we talk about when doing one more thing becomes doing too much, the impact it can have your mental and emotional health, and what some things that we do to keep ourselves from exhaustion. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and how much toilet paper you have stashed away for the coming months. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Find Miri at: Twitter: @MiriBaker Website: https://miribaker.com And find the maker of Miri’s amazing shirt at: https://www.caramcgee.com           Rekka (00:00:00): So when I say welcome back to, We Make Books. I'm not talking to you listener this time. I'm saying welcome back to we make books to Miri Baker. Kaelyn (00:00:08): Joining us again. Rekka (00:00:09): Joining us for a second time. Kaelyn (00:00:11): Our first return guest. Rekka (00:00:12): Triumphant return. Kaelyn (00:00:13): Yes. Rekka (00:00:14): Um, Miri joins us today to talk about something that is very difficult for me to hear. Let's be real. Kaelyn (00:00:24): Something that's difficult for a lot of people here, a lot of people to talk about, a lot of people to implement and that today is boundaries. Rekka (00:00:30): Personal boundaries in your professional writing life. You need them. And Miri's got a lot of tips and a lot of - Kaelyn (00:00:40): Thoughts. Rekka (00:00:41): Auntie concerns and um, yeah, this is really, this is one of those things that isn't going to come up a lot in like professional discussions. But as soon as you start getting a little bit on like the emotional level, I think a lot of our emotional problems and our stresses related to this industry do come a lot from I boundaries we set or fail to set. Kaelyn (00:01:09): Yeah. I think a lot of people are going to hear things in this episode that are going to hit home that they didn't realize were things that they needed to think or consider. Rekka (00:01:19): We apologize if you feel personally attacked. You aren't being personally attacked. Kaelyn (00:01:22): No one is being personally attacked. Um, but Miri was on, um, or previous, it was episode 21 I believe. um talking about community and when we had her back on to talk about, you know, something else, uh, this kind of seems like a good counterpoint to that, which is writing and writing communities. And this is, it occupies sort of a unique space and we talk about this in the episode, but needing to set an establish and maintain boundaries for yourself is a crucial part of being successful in the life and process of being a writer. Rekka (00:02:01): And not just successful but also healthy. Kaelyn (00:02:03): Yes. Successful and healthy. Exactly. So, um, once again, we had a great time sitting down talking to Miri. Um, she was again allowed to leave. Despite our best efforts. Rekka (00:02:14): She did return home. We have confirmation that sh that, you know, like acknowledging that she is home. We made it back in one, did not keep her against her will. Um, but we had a great conversation. So take a listen and we hope you enjoy Rekka (00:02:44): And you sound tired. Kaelyn (00:02:45): You have me up so early. Rekka (00:02:49): You love me. Kaelyn (00:02:50): Those blankets wanted me to stay with them, took me away from that. Rekka (00:02:55): You'll join them again later. Kaelyn (00:02:57): Wripped away. Miri (00:02:58): They will be there for you. Kaelyn (00:02:59): Hey, that's a new voice. Rekka (00:03:01): Well not totally new. Kaelyn (00:03:03): No, not totally new. Second returning guest. Miri (00:03:05): Phase two of the invasion. Kaelyn (00:03:07): First ever returning guest for a second time. Rekka (00:03:11): Again. Kaelyn (00:03:15): I didn't say it makes it less of an invasion. I just wanted to, you know - Rekka (00:03:18): Just to be clear, part of the invasions idea is to make something so normal that you don't realize it's happening and what's more normal than Miri Baker. Welcome back. Kaelyn (00:03:31): Welcome back, Miri. Miri (00:03:32): Hi. Thanks for having me back. Rekka (00:03:35): So this isn't our fault, because you kind of pitched us this topic at the end of our last episode when you appeared back in, I believe that was November. Kaelyn (00:03:44): Beginning of November. Rekka (00:03:45): Of November, 2019. What is time? And so you sort of pitched this at us and said like, yeah, sure, read us an outline and you were like furiously scribbling it immediately. So it behooves us to pay attention when someone is so passionate about a topic. And what is this topic for which you are so passionate. Miri (00:04:06): Today we are going to talk about boundaries. Rekka (00:04:09): On this very special episode of we make books. Miri (00:04:12): Not without boundaries. Rekka (00:04:16): So you are talking about uh, sports fields with the sports ball and the white chalk lines. Miri (00:04:22): Yeah. Those, no, it's a, it's more of a rolly painty thing these days. Rekka (00:04:27): If only we had that to set our boundaries. Miri (00:04:30): Right. Rekka (00:04:31): This is the outline of what I'm willing to do for you. Kaelyn (00:04:33): Well, you know, there's a thing that, um, the officials have in soccer when they, it's just like, this can have like, like really fast melting temporary spray that when they have to spray off a line for like a free kick or something and everyone should just have those at all times and you just spray it on the ground and you have to worry about it because in about five minutes it's going to dissolve and not be there. Rekka (00:04:52): No, no, no, no. We want the boundaries to stick. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:04:55): But like if you just need to go boundary, okay. And then you, and then you walk away. Miri (00:05:02): You yeet yourself from the line after you kick really hard. Kaelyn (00:05:05): After you kick really hard. Rekka (00:05:06): I like this. Okay. So working with that now. All right, so you were talking about boundaries. Um, are we talking about, um, emotional boundaries, uh, work boundaries? Miri (00:05:19): All of the above. So the idea for this came from, uh, I think when I was on the last time Kaelyn mentioned, Oh, all of these social medias that you're in, all of that, that's a lot of time, you know, that can really take over your life. And I kind of cracked my back. Oh yeah. It leads to some really unhealthy habits and some, some ways of interacting with the world and ways of spending my time that are, you know, yes, kind of, kind of take over my life. Kaelyn (00:05:46): And I said, yes, that's what I'm worried about. That's, that's the point I was trying to make. Correct. Miri (00:05:52): And I've had to start working very intentionally on how do I put a box around that time around my mental energy and uh, but boundaries apply to so much more there. How much work can I do today? How much work can I do for this person? What can I take on, uh, what will my body allow me to do? And it can be very easy to not realize what your own, frankly, what your own needs are until you're kind of on the other side of them. So learning to set boundaries, we make boundaries! So you know, you kind of like said like you take on too much, you wonder what you can do. Kaelyn (00:06:34): Like I personally fall into this trap constantly where it's like, yeah, I can do that, I can do that. Um, I imagine like in writing communities, because you do a lot for your writing communities. Miri (00:06:45): Yeah. Kaelyn (00:06:45): And things can just put, you can just come home at the end of the day and go, I think I just agreed to the rest of my life. Like, I don't think I have any time free for the remainder of the time I'm here on earth. Rekka (00:06:58): Or you can be like me and be like, that's, let me just do it. Kaelyn (00:07:02): Yeah. Rekka (00:07:02): You know, and not even like someone has asked you to do it is that you end up volunteering because you're frustrated at watching it. Kaelyn (00:07:09): Rekka has a lot of those like Thanos moments at the end of - Rekka (00:07:13): Pardon me. Miri (00:07:14): Oh goodness. Kaelyn (00:07:16): You know the post credit scene, the "fine, I'll do it myself". Rekka (00:07:20): I thought you were referring to the snap. Kaelyn (00:07:24): No, no! Rekka (00:07:24): If I could. Kaelyn (00:07:24): Well, here's the thing. we could do that with all of the stuff we agreed to and just go half gone. Miri (00:07:31): And then we just agreed on more. Rekka (00:07:33): Yeah, we would absolutely. It's true. It's true. Kaelyn (00:07:35): Well life like commitments grows geometrically if not exponentially, but Rekka does have a lot of the fine, I'll do it to myself, which is one of the things we love about her. It's going on a mug. Oh, absolutely. Miri (00:07:51): Uh, going back to that, the pitfalls, um, entering a new, any new community, but especially writing community because it's a community of freelancers and hustlers and stay in the hamster wheel or die as Rekka has set a couple of times. Rekka (00:08:06): Yeah. Miri (00:08:07): It's very easy to think, Oh, participating in this community means I have to be doing that amount of stuff all the time. Like that is the entry fee and uh, you will burn out. There's this thing called urgent care. And my, uh, my expertise in this topic comes from in a different different zone from writing, but another like constant project, do stuff, do stuff, do stuff. Community is going to urgent care instead of going to the event that I had been preparing for for three weeks. So I, you know, I've, I've been on the wrong side of that line and had to be scooped up as a puddle of goo. Kaelyn (00:08:43): Well you know, and that's something interesting that you bring up because I think we think like burnout is like, Oh well whatever and I just sleep and I'll be fine. Like sometimes this becomes like an actual medical issue. Like I don't think people understand like this can actually be very serious like trying overtaxing yourself and trying to do too much. The stress aside, the sleep deprivation. Miri (00:09:05): Yes. Rekka (00:09:05): And not only that, like this is not something like, Oh, but I can manage it like your body functions in a certain way. When you are stressed, you produce cortisol and cortisol prevents you from sleeping and not sleeping prevents you from healing properly and rest in recuperating from the small things that are supposed to happen just in normal life. But then you pile on top of that and you're not physically equipping yourself to recover from it and you just keep saying, I can kick this can down the road and I will take a week off and sleep after this event. Kaelyn (00:09:38): And that's not quite how it ends up working. Rekka (00:09:41): Your body's not going to wait for you to have time for it. Miri (00:09:45): There was a tweet going around a while back that was if you do not pick a day to rest, your body will pick one for you. Kaelyn (00:09:51): Oh, it's very true. I mean I like I think back to when I was in grad school and like I was a TA, um, I was a TA, I still had a full class load and then we had comps. You have comprehensive final exams, which are basically, you get three professors on your board and you're going to take a six hour test written test and you have no idea what they're going to ask you. My favorite was one of my, so like you have your main guy and you get three hours, three hours. Rekka (00:10:24): Yeah. We've talked in past episodes about how the human mind can focus for about 40 minutes. Kaelyn (00:10:29): Yeah, well three hours because they expect you're going to need to take some time to organize your thoughts. Okay. So one professor, your main guy you get three hours with and they could give you five questions and tell you to pick three and write three one hour essays about them. They could give you, you know, any combination of different things. Then you get an hour and a half with each other professor and they're going to do the same thing. I had a friend who for his three hour thing opened his booklet, had one question and it said, is there something inherently totalitarian about modernity? Go Miri (00:11:05): Oh I can't and no can. Here's the thing. No. Done hand in the book. Rekka (00:11:20): I'm just saying no to the situation. Not no to the question. I'm saying no to the no I'm not, I have no idea. Kaelyn (00:11:25): You know. So we took a break and I remember like I'm talking to him and he was like shaking and he was like, I have to go back in there and finish another three hours on this. And like I felt horrible because that just wiped him out. Just that no. Rekka (00:11:43): When you said six hour exam, I'm thinking that's not a test of knowledge or retention. That's an endurance test. Kaelyn (00:11:48): It's, it is definitely a like, can you, can I give you a that you can talk intelligently about and show that you've internalized and digest enough information that you can apply it to the question I'm asking. Rekka (00:12:00): You can do that in 20 minutes. You don't have to be war crime cruel about it. Kaelyn (00:12:05): Yeah. Well then after that you have the oral exam. So then you go into a room with the three professors and they each get 20 minutes with you. So we always would joke, um, if you can get them to fight with you, you'll pass. If you can get them to fight with each other, you pass with distinction. Miri (00:12:20): Uh, is there something inherently totalitarian about grad school? Left as an exercise to the listener. And this is where name of the wind came from? I think so. Rekka (00:12:29): Actually ... Miri (00:12:31): That and student loans? Yes. Kaelyn (00:12:34): So the whole point is that I left that exam and I just about collapsed. Like I went home and I didn't go to sleep. I intentionally fell on my bed and laid there for a while it was, I shut down. Miri (00:12:52): Here's the thing that occurs to me about that you're talking about collapsing from the exhaustion of the the time you have just described on a single day, but you have been quote unquote preparing for this test that you can't prepare for and you've known about it since you started grad school and it has been this stress in the back of your mind this entire time building anxiety, building these scenarios that you imagine where there's no way that you could even walk out of here. We are catching on fire somehow because by the time that you've, like you get there, of course you've come up with a scenario in which you actually combust and the stress build up is almost like as cruel as just the time frame and the phrasing of the questions which are designed to flex and destroy you. Um, the buildup to this is almost worse now almost. Kaelyn (00:13:40): And see, that's actually an interesting point because I, this is a coping mechanism, not just for this, but I'll use the, I'll continue to send as an example. You don't think about it your first year of grad school, you do not think about this one. There's no point to, you're not ready to think about an and try to prepare at that point anyway, but, and there's kind of, you know, a schedule. You see what the second year is we're doing when you're a first year, I mean everything but the denial and the, I'm just not thinking about, this is sometimes a valid coping mechanism. If it's not, if it legitimately is not something you can do anything about right now. Rekka (00:14:20): Right. But here's how we have global warming. Kaelyn (00:14:23): Well that's not true because you can do something about that right now. Rekka (00:14:26): But I mean like you can't look that far ahead into the future to see the consequences. Like the consequence of joining grad school is I have to take this horrible test, you know? And so it's, I think you're right. It's a coping mechanism and it's one that our, our minds employ in voluntarily against our wishes maybe. And so one thing we do is we say, yeah, I can do that. I can add that to my plate because I don't see the situation to bring it back around to Miri's point. I don't see the situation in which I can't take this on. Kaelyn (00:14:54): Well, it's also, I can do that without thinking down the line about what the real impact of that is going to be. Miri (00:15:01): I think that's what Rekka was saying. It's like, yes, I'm in a vacuum right now. I'm not thinking about this other thing that's happening. Or the other 12 things I've, I've stuffed in my little knapsack of stuff I need to do. So, of course I can do this thing. I am a human who would be able to do this thing. Yeah. On its own. I can absolutely do that thing. I could probably do that thing in 15 minutes and really well, yes. Kaelyn (00:15:23): But you know, and sometimes though you can fall into a trap and I will say like this happens to me sometimes where you have so much to do and you can't make yourself start doing any of it. Miri (00:15:35): Oh, I think we're all familiar with that feeling. Yeah. And somehow amazingly bad at realizing that feeling is going to happen again. Kaelyn (00:15:44): Yeah. Like sometimes like there are like silly, like I have a list of like things that will take me 15 minutes to do, but there's a lot of them and the lot of them is the overwhelming part. And it's like, so if I sit down and start doing this, it's not going to take me 15 minutes going to take me four hours because I've got, you know, so many 15,30 minute things to do. And that can make you not want to do any of them just dipping your toe in the water is this scary prospect. Rekka (00:16:11): Yeah. And you start to wait for like the perfect day to get things done. Miri (00:16:15): Listener, the perfect day. It does not exist. So we've been talking a lot about the boundaries around what things can I take on. But there's also a boundaries around how we spend our mental and emotional energy. And we've talked a lot about mental energy, but not necessarily emotional energy. And I think the best example for that is Twitter. Rekka (00:16:37): Ah, the horrible thing about Twitter is Twitter's a horrible thing. Kaelyn (00:16:40): So horrible. Rekka (00:16:41): Not great. Yeah. And the the scroll, the wall of text never ending. You have eight new notifies, you know, eight new posts to read since you've just reloaded this page kind of constant input thing makes you feel like everyone out there is doing things constantly. Miri (00:17:00): Yes. And I think part of that is as you're reading Twitter and Twitter, to be clear, Twitter is set up to make you feel like this. Rekka (00:17:08): Yes. Miri (00:17:08): Twitter has set up to take your eyes away from the different names and different icons and you just see all the stuff and instead of realizing, Oh this is a hundred different people rotating, taking two really busy, really productive days. It just feels like the community is constantly doing all this stuff and posting all the time. And why aren't you and why aren't you? Don't you know there's a convention practically every weekend that you could be at. Miri (00:17:42): But yeah, it's that, that pressure that I'm missing something, I'm missing something and I should be doing something. And you probably just at your phone when you were going to do something else actually productive. Kaelyn (00:17:53): And it's not just a pressure of like, Oh, look at these people posting about like all this stuff they're doing. To me, just the posting is overwhelming. Like the idea of having to like do all of this and put this much time, effort and energy into it, I don't like it. Rekka (00:18:09): It's okay not to like it. Um, unfortunately in this current algorithm based society, you can't avoid it unless you can create something better, which you then eventually have to fund with algorithm driven data and advertising. So like it's, we are stuck in a cycle of this is how humans now behave with each other in an etheric plane of like over-ness and poor communication. Kaelyn (00:18:41): Yeah. Miri (00:18:42): So like, like humanity, but faster, yes. Rekka (00:18:46): Like humanity, but faster and completely binary in that either this person is here, present and on, or this person must be not here at all. This person does not exist. Miri (00:18:56): Right. Rekka (00:18:57): And so, or at least that's how you internalize what happens if you don't do it right. And so that's a lot of pressure. So how do you boundar-ize? Something like social media, the feed. Miri (00:19:09): The feed. Uh, the things I've had to start doing are I have seasons of just straight up taking the stuff off my phone, but we're going to assume that you're still here because you have a reason to be here. One, there are some tools within Twitter and platforms like Twitter that will let you manage the flood. Um, mutes are your friend muting words, muting accounts that you don't have to deal with. If you don't want to see them, you don't want them to see that you've blocked them. There's a whole muting blocking internet ettiquite thing that is bizarre. Dark, ignore Twitter. Rekka (00:19:45): Dark, ignore Twitter. Miri (00:19:47): Um, and for the longest time I had really internalized like, Oh, if I mute this person, they're winning. Or Oh, I should just be a big enough person to not need to use these tools. Kaelyn (00:19:58): Like I should just be able to look at this and keep going without it de-railing my day. Rekka (00:20:02): And this is definitely like 100% of boundary thing. Like you can set the boundary of this person's diatribes or this person's nonsense or this person's constant demands of other people is not good for me, not worth my time. I should not be allocating time to even skimming this content. Kaelyn (00:20:23): And I think we have this mentality where we think like, why is this a big deal? This shouldn't be a big deal for me. I'm going to tell myself it's not a big deal and therefore it's not going to be a big deal, but that's not how this works because 10, even five years ago, we were not this consistently bombarded with stimuli and information that we had to take in and process. Rekka (00:20:45): Not only that, but these are little blue screens that activate our, our like our minds in a way that most other, um, things that we ever dealt with other people from a distance like writing letters was never a blue screen in your eyes, like waking you back up kind of activity. Like you run a candle, lighting and red light is way more relaxing and comforting and that sort of thing. Then, um, the blue light that simulates daylight. Like get up there, go out, do some work, be active versus Hey it's a fire that probably means the sun's down. That probably means like it's time to get cozy and start winding our way toward bed. This is like the exact opposite and it's in our faces and like that just always occurs to me that not only are we getting this strange constant input, we're getting it mechanically in a way that like it just agitates our brains. Kaelyn (00:21:35): Yeah. And like I think we are still like going like well how come all of a sudden I'm part of this group of people that can't deal with this. Humanity's been humanity for as long as humanities exists. Rekka (00:21:47): People will always people. Exactly. Kaelyn (00:21:49): But like things are very different now. Even I, like I said, definitely within the last decade I would go so far as to say even in the last five years, we're needing to learn new ways to process, cope with an interact with information in the world around us. So saying, this is bothering me and I need to mute this award or this person or something. There is nothing wrong with that. That doesn't make you like less able to take the world around you. It means that you have more of the world that you have to deal with now and saying, okay, I've hit the max of the world. Miri (00:22:30): Oh there's a mood. Kaelyn (00:22:33): That doesn't make you weak. That doesn't make you, you know, like mentally fatigued or you, no one should look down on you. Miri (00:22:41): I mean it certainly does make you mentally fatigue. Well the fatigue is real. It's just that it's, it's real, it's fatigue, it's emotional fatigue. Kaelyn (00:22:52): And there's nothing wrong with admitting to that. Rekka (00:22:54): Yeah. I think part of it is when we are socially conscious, we feel like muting a trigger word is going to somehow we feel like we're trying to erase our responsibility for like what we could change in the world and therefore like if you don't watch a topic that you are failing to improve the world around that topic or something like that. And that's, again, this is just Twitter, but also Twitter doesn't change any of this - Kaelyn (00:23:20): And this goes back to boundaries. Like you can't fix every problem and you know, social like I think that's another thing like those of us that are socially conscious and like care about these issues and stuff, want to help with everything and you can't help with everything. You physically can't do it. You're, if you want to, that's great, but you're going to kill yourself trying to, it's going to hurt you. Miri (00:23:44): You're able to engage better, whether it's in your work, in your communities, in a social issue that you're really working on if you are not skiddish scared or dead. New Speaker (00:23:55): Yup. New Speaker (00:23:56): Actually that last one for some reason. New Speaker (00:23:57): Yeah, that's very strange. How like dead people are not super productive and you know, I'm not calling them - Speaker 1 (00:24:04): Well there were those mushroom farms. Rekka (00:24:07): That's true. Miri (00:24:08): That that's useful. But again, they're focused on one thing. Rekka (00:24:12): They're focused on One thing. Kaelyn (00:24:13): I want one of those bags they put you in that a tree grows out of. Rekka (00:24:17): That would actually solve all these problems. Okay. So we're go turn yourself into a bag from which a tree can grow. But yes, skiddish scared or dead. Miri (00:24:26): And we see a lot of, you know, there's a fear of the fairly justified fear of the Twitter pylon or of saying the wrong thing. Um, or of genuinely making an ass of yourself. But, uh, you can just not, okay. I'm not going to say you can just, it is not, you can just, we doing a whole episode about how it is really hard to not to engage, um, yeah. Using mutes up blocking people. You can block people. It's okay. It's fine. Uh, someone shows up in your DMS that you've never met before. Making explicit commentary blocked, done, goodbye. Kaelyn (00:25:04): Don't even reply. Just gone. Miri (00:25:07): But beyond the things that, uh, something like Twitter will let you mechanically do, there is an exercise of going, what about this scares me? What am I worried about? What am I constantly, you know, turning the scenarios over my head and doing whatever it takes to mitigate that. So for me, no, I want to be talking to people. I, I've liked the notifications. I love that little dopamine hit. And that became very dangerous for me because I'm spending so much time on line and on my phone and I have a billion other hobbies and I'm like, why am I so tired all the time? Rekka (00:25:42): You just need more coffee. Miri (00:25:44): Yeah. Kaelyn (00:25:45): But you hit on something very interesting is the flip side of that, which is you can get addicted to this. Miri (00:25:50): Oh, it's designed for that. Rekka (00:25:52): I mean dopamine is an addictive substance and we make it ourselves. Kaelyn (00:25:55): And we want the interaction. You want the retweets because you want to see people loving you on Twitter Rekka (00:26:02): And if they won't love you, maybe they'll argue with you. Kaelyn (00:26:05): It's also validation. Rekka (00:26:05): Yeah. Kaelyn (00:26:07): And we as people crave that and that's a different kind of boundary where you have to stop and take a step back and go like, all right, the metric of how well my life is going is not my Twitter notifications. Rekka (00:26:22): If you say so. Kaelyn (00:26:25): But that's a, that's a pit a lot of people fall into. And like you said in this just all circles back to. Am I doing enough with this? Because look at how, look at how many likes and retweets this person gets and I only get this, they must be doing more and doing it better. Miri (00:26:39): Right. So it's, it is not a novel observation that on social media you're seeing other people's curated highlights, reel of their lives, but you're also not seeing either what a shambles the rest of their life is in to make that happen. Or conversely, what else they're giving up to make that strong time consuming social media presence part of a life that also functions. Kaelyn (00:27:08): If at all. Rekka (00:27:09): If at all. Kaelyn (00:27:09): Yeah. Yeah. Well like I think it's, you know, like we're seeing this more and more with like Instagram influencers. We've kind of now moved away from this. I like this romanticized notion of like this is how their life actually is. Like everyone knows now like this - Rekka (00:27:23): It is a hustle. Kaelyn (00:27:23): Yeah, it's a hustle and they're renting staged apartments in New York to take a picture that looks like I just woke up and I'm having this coffee and this coffee is made with these special beans that are going to improve your skin and hair and nails. And also it's made from unicorn blood and other things. Miri (00:27:44): I mean, we can know that, but if you're just scrolling through. Rekka (00:27:49): It still communicates, this is a desirable life. Why don't you have it exactly. If only you just worked harder and rented random apartments in New York city. Miri (00:27:59): As, as we really all should be doing as writers. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:28:04): I mean, I rent an apartment in New York city. Rekka (00:28:07): It's not random though. It's a determined. Kaelyn (00:28:09): No, I mean I live there for a reason. Miri (00:28:12): And then the, the other part of boundaries, which I think gets, I know I have glossed over in the past of like, Oh, boundaries are for me there to keep my life in some carbon-based shape of a thing that functions. Uh, your boundaries are really important for how you interact with other people and especially - Kaelyn (00:28:30): Oh definitely, yeah. Miri (00:28:31): - people who you have a professional or paraprofessional relationship with. You are a human person. And if you ostensibly, ostensibly, and if you have a deadline, whether it's you know, a book or an article or whatever it is, and you can feel deep in your soul that I am not okay, I'm not going to make this. The, the reflexive thing to do is say, Oh no, I can, I can rally, I can make it work. I can make it happen. I can make it happen. I can make it happen. Right. Until you pass out on the floor for the 24 hours before and 48 hours after that deadline and look at what society does to us. The little engine that could, like that is a train that has no boundaries. Rekka (00:29:19): I want to see that cover now. A train that has no boundaries. Kaelyn (00:29:24): I think I can, I think I can. I think I can and Rekka (00:29:27): Oh wait, Nope. Can't, Kaelyn (00:29:29): I can tell you as an editor, like sometimes I've been in positions where I have not correctly estimated the amount of time it's going to take me to do something. I know, I know, I know. Or, you know, you kind of read through something and you come up with a plan and you go like, okay, this, this, this and this. Probably gonna take me about this. Then you go back to it and that whole plan goes in the garbage and you're starting, you know, you're like, Oh wait, I forgot about this thing. So like I've written to authors and been like, Hey, I just, I'm taking another 12 hours with this. I didn't forget about you. This is coming. But in order for me to get this to a place where I'm happy giving it back to you, I need another 12 hours with it. I'll have it to you in the next day or so. I'm on the other side with authors. Kaelyn (00:30:20): I would much rather you send me that same email and just say, listen, like I'm not finished with this yet and I, I need some time with this because especially something with writing, this is not a matter of like I'm building a bookshelf and the bookshelf, I'm finished building the bookshelf when the bookshelf is built, there's a lot of like thought and emotion and mental time and energy. This is something like, I always call this invisible hours, the time that you have to spend just thinking about something and I'm going to say, I will say this and I don't mean it in the most literal sense. Well I do mean it in a very literal sense. You have nothing to show for it and by that I mean you do not have anything physical that you can put in front of somebody and say, I did this. Mentally you have done a lot of work and one that's exhausting and two, it takes a lot of time. So you know, I call these invisible hours because they are hours you spend working with what you make at the end of them. No one else can see.   Miri (00:31:22): Oh, that's why so many of us have other, other creative hobbies. Rekka (00:31:26): That serve as very nice distractions when the thing that we're really wanting to make. Yeah. The, um, the thing that occurs to me is that those invisible hours are, um, unnecessary comp. Like, you know, you're not saying they're not worth anything you're saying. Kaelyn (00:31:43): Absolutely. They're very important. Rekka (00:31:45): Um, and you need to have them. And if you're not immersed fully in your project, like when you are immersed fully in your project, you're sort of existing in a sphere where you are always processing that information. When you allow yourself to work on other things or if your time can't be focused. Um, if you spend a lot of distracted time on Twitter, you are not mentally processing those things. You are mentally processing other people's things. And so when you do sit down to work, if you have 15 minutes, it's not the same as if you had 15 minutes when you'd been working on this one project focused all week. It's now I need to put my brain back in that space and do some of that mental processing. So that feels like I used to be able to write, you know, at least 300 words in 15 minutes. Why can't I do this anymore? It's like you are trying to do the same work and allowing yourself less time. Kaelyn (00:32:37): I have put on the noise canceling headphones and you know this is not a recommendation or endorsement of this but noise canceling headphones, glass of wine or you know, a nice coffee, whatever. You know you're kind of relaxing beverages. Rekka (00:32:51): Your poison. Kaelyn (00:32:52): Yup. Gotten blank pieces of computer paper sat in front of me and just stared into space thinking, thinking for 30 minutes, wrote a whole bunch of stuff down. Stop. Think the human brain develops and processes information a certain way. And I use like, I have two little nephews now and I'm learning all kinds of interesting stuff about how babies brains work. One of the reasons babies need to nap so frequently is because everything is new to them. Rekka (00:33:22): Everything is stimulus. Kaelyn (00:33:23): Everything is stimulus. They can't filter out stuff in the back. So part of it is their babies and you know, they just need to nap a lot. But a lot of it is actually mental fatigue that they're napping because their brain needs now three hours to kind of sort through everything that they just took it. Rekka (00:33:41): And that's an important point is that when you're sleeping, that's not you being inactive. That is your brain building back its resiliency and also processing the information that you've taken. Kaelyn (00:33:50): And that's why you frequently dream about stuff that happened to you that day. Rekka (00:33:53): Or that's why you think of stuff in the shower when you've like turned off everything but like automatic mechanical movements so your brain can process more information. You know, like that's basically shutting down all the programs so that the process that was freed up. Kaelyn (00:34:07): It's exactly what it is. New Speaker (00:34:08): Works even better than showers, which sometimes you're not conscious when you figure things out. Miri (00:34:12): Which is why sleep deprivation is a hell of a drug. Rekka (00:34:16): It's a torture. Miri (00:34:17): Yeah. Kaelyn (00:34:18): No, I mean it is literally is. Miri (00:34:21): When we say writers torture themselves, we are not kidding. Rekka (00:34:24): Yes. Governments of the world use this method to like destroy people so they can break them down and get what they want out of the pieces of human shell that they're left on the ground. And you not do this to yourself voluntarily. When you push, push. Kaelyn (00:34:40): You're not productive, they do this with um, driving experiments a lot. Are you a worse driver sleep deprived or after drinking? And do you know what? It's a toss up depending on who it is I've seen. Rekka (00:34:51): I've seen studies that point to sleep and I just, yeah, obviously we don't want to be drinking and driving. I don't like this plan, but - Kaelyn (00:34:57): Do not drink and drive. Rekka (00:34:58): Both of these situations bad. Kaelyn (00:35:00): Yeah. So anyway, the whole point is like, be kind to yourself with this kind of stuff. Don't push yourself too far and look at everyone else and go, well they're doing all of this. I should be able to as well. Miri (00:35:14): And just like invisible hours, you have invisible labor. Um, maybe somebody, you got an email or even fan mail or just some little thing that's super harmless and just asking you, Hey, can you do this real quick? Or even just really effusive praise or whatever it is and it's, this requires a response from me and, Oh gosh, no, I can't do that right now. I'm thinking about why that might be the case. And what do you feel is expected of you in those moments? Kaelyn (00:35:43): You know, I'm an acquisitions editor. One of the things that it was very surprised by was when I'd send out rejections, um, I'd get, not a lot, but like some responses back saying, you know, very nice, you know, polite saying, thank you so much. Um, you know, is there any way I could ask you for like some notes on this or just like a little bit of like what I could have done better here. And, um, I was talking to, uh, someone who's now a good friend who's also an editor. And like, I was just like, yeah, I don't know what, like, I don't have time for this. And he said, of course you don't, and you don't owe anyone your time. Like you rejected their manuscript, you know, Rekka (00:36:22): That was the response that you owed. Kaelyn (00:36:23): That was the response yes or no, and you don't owe them, you know, notes and things and like don't make yourself feel bad about that. Miri (00:36:34): And especially in this writing sphere, I think you're dealing with a lot of people who have entered it at different points, different recency's who just genuinely do not know. And I know my instinct in those moments is going, Oh, they don't know. They don't know better. It's okay, I can, I can help this one better. I can teach them. And the thing is teaching is a skill and it's a, it's labor. And it's not my responsibility to account for the fact that other people don't know things. I'm not going to be a jerk to them, but I don't owe them anything. Rekka (00:37:09): And you were saying the emotional labor of just receiving an email that you do want to respond to. Um, and sometimes you're like, Oh, well I can just do that right now. Like, let me just take care of that. Except it's 10 o'clock on a Saturday night. Now the person's gotten a response from you in five minutes and they wrote you back. Now what? And you've created a pattern. Even though there's it's you know, sample size of one, you are setting yourself up to create a pattern of replying to people within five minutes of them sending you an email to a fan that is amazing. They are online live with this, you know, author that they wrote reached out to because they wanted to talk to them and engage with them. But now, now it's 3:00 AM on Sunday morning and you're still replying to this person and you want to go to bed. Rekka (00:37:53): Um, you know, one thing I like to do to set a boundary, and I do this with my employer too because my manager works all weekend because no one stops her. And so when she sends me an email or a text or something like that, I will reply. I will either reply, yes, I'll send it to you on Monday or I won't necessarily reply for a couple of hours. If like I'm doing something reasonable like having dinner with my family, you know like setting the expectation that you do not immediately turn something around even if it's quick, even if it's easy sets you up that they are not going to go well. You normally get this to me really fast. Why did this take five days or something like that? Like I usually let an email from a reader sit for a day or two so that the, the expectation is not that I reply immediately. Kaelyn (00:38:40): I um, actually have a thing that I do and like, you know, I'm not flooded with emails generally. I mean sometimes some weird times of the year are busier than others but like I usually get a few a week with just some questions or you know, Hey take a look at my portfolio. Or when are you guys going to be open for submissions? Again, I try to take time with those kinds of things and set aside an hour or two hours, however long I need to sit down and answer all of those at once. Because the same thing I could just keep reply doing because a lot of times people do write back to me and you can even get stuck in the thank you loop where it's like you too. Thank you so much for your quick response and you know, I'm really excited for, you know, this kind of thing and then like, Oh thanks. That's a nice thing for you to say. Rekka (00:39:30): This is an improv trick. Yes and. Kaelyn (00:39:32): Exactly. Miri (00:39:32): You hang up. No, you hang. Exactly. Exactly. Kaelyn (00:39:35): So, but like I do take time and sit down and like I try to do it once a week. Um, you know, if there's things that are more urgent that I see that come in, I'll, you know, get to them immediately. But if it's just like general questions because I could spend - Miri (00:39:50): The rest of your life. Kaelyn (00:39:51): But, and I know it seems like a strange thing to say, but every time I sit here and I open this and I have to compose the email and like think about it. Whereas like if I'm answering a whole bunch of the same questions, I can answer those real quick and condensing all of that together really helps me with that and to manage communicating with people. Miri (00:40:10): And that's the thing about these quote small requests unquote is that they're not and it's not conscious, but they're not just requesting a quick response. They're requesting you to put down whatever it was you were doing. Switch gears into that thing, I guess. Thoughtful, whatever dance of combination of thoughtful. Rekka (00:40:30): Accurate, accurate. Miri (00:40:32): And not promising anything. Response, send it off, spend a little bit of extra time decompressing from that and then - Rekka (00:40:41): Figuring out where you were and go back to it. Now you, yeah, you've got two tasks that may not have been performed to what you would consider your standard. Kaelyn (00:40:48): Well, like if every time I stopped, every time I got one of these emails, I stopped everything that I was doing and I replied to it immediately. That's maybe seven to 10 minutes per email, depending from stopping what I'm doing, opening this up, reading their thing, composing a reply, hitting send, putting it down, going back to what I was doing, seven to 10 minutes, depending on what I've got to write back to them. If I sit down and do all of it at once. Each of those emails is only taking me two or three minutes per email. Rekka (00:41:12): Right. Time lost on either end. When you consolidate them is - Kaelyn (00:41:16): Exactly. Yeah. And like I know it's like, Oh, so what's the big deal? It's like, no, it's, it's the mentally taking yourself out of something else. Miri (00:41:25): Someone else does not get to decide what is a big deal for you. Yeah. Rekka (00:41:29): An email, a telephone call, a text message does not have a right to be responded to and acknowledged immediately. Yup. Miri (00:41:36): And if you're like me and you see the email pop up because you're always looking at your screen for some reason and your instinct is to go, Oh, that's real quick on. And if I had the more insidious one, if I put this away now, I'm not going to remember to come back to it. Rekka (00:41:51): So don't look at it in the first place if you don't have time. Miri (00:41:54): Yeah. And the way we do this is filters. Rekka (00:41:57): Yeah. Miri (00:41:57): Filters are good. And then I can have a to do list item. That's okay. Go look at my unsorted filter or my, um, if I'm at my day job filters from different technology tools that different people use to communicate with me. It's okay. I'm in answer product issue mode now. Yup. No, we can go. Um, I do think there's, uh, another aspect of this that, can I invoke the, the gender specter? Kaelyn (00:42:22): Oh, absolutely. Rekka (00:42:23): Yeah. Yeah. We can, except there are like infinite genders. So go through the infinite. Kaelyn (00:42:29): So let's start right now and um, what, in maybe 36 hours or so. Miri (00:42:34): Yeah. Kaelyn (00:42:34): That's done. You don't have a plane to catch or anything. Miri (00:42:38): Um, I do think there is a little bit more pressure on women, femme people, people who are socialized female to be responsive and be friendly - Kaelyn (00:42:51): And to be appeasing. Rekka (00:42:52): To be appeasing, peacemakers. Miri (00:42:54): Exactly. Yeah. So I have definitely seen writers who fit that description, expressing more pressure to respond either quickly or at all because, Oh, if you're not responding, then you're just being, you're being cold. Rekka (00:43:12): And selfish, you're selfish, you're icy. Miri (00:43:15): And this can extend to somebody who just sent me this really nasty letter going through all the different things that I did wrong on my book. What should I say? And the answer is nothing. Rekka (00:43:28): Nothing. You can delete the email and move on with your life. Kaelyn (00:43:31): I've had, I mean, part of it, and this is the thing that like this can, this will be the brain fuck that starts messing with you. Am I just like this or am I like this because I was socially conditioned to be like this? Um, that's a spiral. You can just be like this. It is okay. But some of it is that I am just like this, but, um, I'm very used to, especially in my day job, having to be very, very clear about what I'm saying and what should be done because it's just part of the nature of the job. And when I'm responding to people with publishing things, like I parse the words to the point that sometimes they don't mean anything anymore. Um, but that's happened to me where like I've, you know, responded to someone and been like very nice and I've gotten back like, ah, well that's not, and at that point I was just like, okay, well I tried buddy. I don't know what to tell you. Um, but that's a boundary that you have to put up for yourself is like - Rekka (00:44:33): Because they put you on your, on your back foot trying to make you apologetic like that, that they could just be grumpy and delete your email and be unsatisfied with your answer. But the fact that they write back to you and let you know they are grumpy expects a, uh, you know, capitulation in their favor. Kaelyn (00:44:50): Yeah. Well, like I get a lot of, you know, um, when are you guys going to be open for submissions? And if my response is like, Hey, I don't know, um, you know, we're gonna see how you're going to see w what we need. Uh, just, you know, follow us on Twitter or sign up for a newsletter. Keep an eye on us. Okay. But like, how will I find out? There's thingsI just told you. Miri (00:45:11): Per, my last email. Kaelyn (00:45:14): That's the thing. I don't respond to them at that point and that is, that is a boundary I had to set for myself. It's like if I've told you the information and I don't reply to you, like I'm not obligated to keep restating the same. Miri (00:45:26): Restate. Yeah. Telling you that we really want that closure. We want to feel like the conversation has ended. It can't just end. Kaelyn (00:45:32): That was a hard mental shift for me was just being like, okay, I'm not responding to this person. I am not used to not responding to people, but I had to because I could spend the rest of my life doing that. Rekka (00:45:45): Yup. Yeah. This is the person at the bar who is had too much confidence maybe in this case or or entitlement or whatever and they just won't leave you alone. Do you get up and leave the bar or do you spend the night in jail because you just had to respond and and you know like it, it escalates because these situations tend to escalate and if you start to feel like, Oh my God, I'm never going to get out of this email, that is an escalating situation that you could probably just close the window and not reply to. Miri (00:46:12): Yup. Yup. Add that person to your block list, Rekka (00:46:14): Yup yup, screenshot the problems. I tend to not delete emails where people are starting to get aggressive just so that I have a record, but that doesn't mean I'm going to reply and it doesn't mean I'm going to leave it in my inbox for me to see every time I go in there. I've got a folder for that. Miri (00:46:30): Yup. Yup. Folders and filters go in there and filters go in there when you're well rested. Rekka (00:46:34): Or don't go in at all. Miri (00:46:35): Or didn't go in at all. Rekka (00:46:36): Make it a lobster trap where it's one way only. If you go in there, you're not coming out almost. I need police evidence, Miri (00:46:44): so we've talked a lot about having boundaries and kind of knowing what those need to be and not a lot about. It's really hard to know what your boundaries need to be like that. The example I gave of, you know, you say I can do it, I can do it. I can do it right up until you crash in entirely miss whatever it was you needed to do. It's not necessarily that you actually, I'm going to put this on the, on the personal example is not necessarily the, I was realizing and you know, maliciously making the decision to torture myself. I literally couldn't tell that it was going to happen until I've had years and years of heavy duty hobbies working on stuff constantly on the clock, off the clock, whatever it is, and started to identify the signs early of, Oh no, you need to stop because I have gone to urgent care instead of going to a convention that I was preparing for, I have gotten back from trips and just passed out on the floor for 16 hours a day. Do not do that. Rekka (00:47:47): I mean, at least make it to the bed. Miri (00:47:48): At least make it to the bed are bad for your neck. So if you realize, Oh, I might have a problem with this, uh, start looking for those signs. Rekka (00:47:57): Yeah. The nice thing about patterns is that we can analyze them. Miri (00:47:59): Yeah. We're really good at that. When we start to pay attention. Rekka (00:48:02): When you do an objective, like you can write a list of these are the symptoms, and then when you start to feel the symptoms, like hang that list up where you're going to walk in front of it and go, Oh shoot, Oh shoot. That's like three of them. Kaelyn (00:48:13): Just this morning I was just talking to Rekka about this, that like I was, you know, going through a phase of that where it's like I am objectively recognizing that things are happening to me that I know in the past have led to other bad things, but I can't stop and Rekka's like you need, you need to take a breath and you need to kind of like get yourself together here and, but I will say, here's the thing, sometimes things happen in your life that you can't, sometimes there is just a lot to deal with all of a sudden and, Rekka (00:48:49): and if you're already taxed by your own decisions, you get to that point and you don't, Kaelyn (00:48:55): You don't have, you don't have your writing career and life in a vacuum. Right. You know, you don't see these people and they're like, well, they're doing all of this other stuff. Well here's the thing. Maybe they're at a point in their life, in their career where that can be the only thing they're responsible for or that they have to do. So yes, they have hours and hours a day to spend on this. Judging yourself in the context of other people is never productive. Rekka (00:49:20): Yeah. I mean they might be unemployed looking for work, depressed about it and on Twitter because it keeps them from having to think about how they don't have a job. Kaelyn (00:49:27): Yeah, so like everyone we've been hearing since kindergarten, don't compare yourself to other people. Rekka (00:49:33): I don't think they ever told me that in kindergarten. Kaelyn (00:49:37): I went to a very progressive school where we talked a lot about feelings. Miri (00:49:42): Oh no, my school was very much compare yourself to other people, be better, do more. And that's how we got here. Actually, I want to follow up on what Kaelyn said. What are, what are some ways to throw up emergency boundaries if you realize this thing has happened. And now my, my threshold for the ability to do writing stuff to do professional stuff is like it's smaller now. Kaelyn (00:50:06): Triage method, you got to figure out what's most important that you absolutely have to keep doing. So like if it's, I need to absolutely keep showing up to my job every day. So start there. You know, I must continue to go to work. I must, you know, continue to grocery shop I, you know, things that are just your daily life to keep you going. Stop everything else and then see what you can add back in. Rekka (00:50:35): But there's also, what can you actually do that's going to improve the situation? Like what actions can I take that will improve versus I could bang my head against the wall for 17 hours straight and nothing would change. So like, I mean I realize you're not saying prioritize the super important stuff because of course in these moments everything feels super important and overwhelming. But also to judge such things. You have a tendency to want to put effort at the thing that hurts most, but that might not actually improve. Kaelyn (00:51:08): I would say that it depends on what the situation here. Rekka (00:51:13): Yeah, of course. Kaelyn (00:51:14): Sometimes life things just happen and sometimes a lot of times with those life things, you know, depending on their nature, you kind of just have to get through them and wait for them to be over. Like they're a process that like is not going to, there isn't really anything you can do. Rekka (00:51:34): For example, grief for example, grief. But allowing yourself to grieve and allowing yourself to heal is the important part of the process. Kaelyn (00:51:43): Exactly. But that's what I mean. You just kind of have to get through it. Like it's not something you can say, I'm going to sit down and do this all at once and it'll be done. You have no control over the timeline, Rekka (00:51:51): But at the same time, um, gritting your teeth and trying to endure is not actually how you heal in either of those examples. Yeah. Kaelyn (00:52:00): Yeah. That's a good point. Um, but those are the things where, I mean more like there are things that you just have to let happen. You can't do anything to make them be over faster. Um, if you, you know, if you try, you're not really like, you're not actually doing it. You're just telling yourself that is, it's done. Rekka (00:52:17): And in you're applying mental focus and energy, like, you know, think of your focus time as calories burned, if it, if it helps you imagine the energy you're putting into things. Yeah. Because most people I feel like can understand that as a metric. Um, your brain does use calories. So like we know we're using your brain to think about something else. Those are, you know, that's energy that's not going to like your basic life function. Um, so the more focus and anxiety you dedicate to something, the like that's coming from somewhere else. Yeah. Miri (00:52:50): Yeah. And the hard thing in that example is, okay, you're grieving or dealing with illness or whatever, major zero control life thing, building boundaries around the rest of your life so that you can deal with that thing. Kaelyn (00:53:04): Yeah. So this kind of stuff, there are a lot of really good online resources for that kind of thing. Like how to deal with grief and death and processing these things. Um, you know, and when I say it like illness, I don't mean even like a chronic thing. I, I got strep throat a few weeks ago. It completely knocked me on my ass and mine didn't even get that bad because I knew I was exposed to it, but like, and it just threw everything out of whack, it sounds like. Oh well, you know, you're just sick for a few days that shouldn't really, you know, impacted - Miri (00:53:39): Should is it bad word. Kaelyn (00:53:41): Absolutely does. Yeah. Rekka (00:53:44): Yeah. And think of like, don't underestimate where you miss one day of homework and we still to make up that homework and then suddenly you're a few days behind and you haven't had, you know - Kaelyn (00:53:52): Everything compounds. Rekka (00:53:54): - just, and then mentally, the pressure of all that compounds, Kaelyn (00:53:58): A bad cold can mess up your, especially if you're already like working to the bone and you know, have very little wiggle room for error. Rekka (00:54:08): Yeah. In terms of kind of you're excellent at time management. Something like this can really throw you off and then you are down on yourself because I'm so good at time management. How could I end up so far behind? Even though I have a medical, you know, like a temporary medical condition or even longterm, I'm going to draw an analogy but helped me figure this one out. Miri (00:54:27): We're really good at understanding even if we're not able to do it for whatever reason, we're going to understanding that I should have some money set aside for emergencies. Should, should is a bad word. I know, but it is useful to my life. Kaelyn (00:54:41): It would be good for me. Miri (00:54:42): It would be good for me to have money set aside for emergencies because I understand that things happen. Rekka (00:54:48): Yup. Miri (00:54:49): But we don't necessarily apply that to our mental and emotional energy. Yeah, and something that hits your mental and emotional stores is at least as likely as something that hits your financial stores. Kaelyn (00:55:03): What I was even going to say is, you know like I use the example of like I got strep throat. A bad day has done the same thing to me. Like, and I don't mean like I stubbed my toe. Like, I mean I'm sure we have all had like cosmically hilariously bad days where like the universe is just like anI this now this, now this and you get home and you're like, what is going on? And just needing to, you know, binge watch something on Netflix and relax. And that's the important emotional store to have like this built in because you could just have a really bad day or something could happen that really upsets you. And if you don't address that, that's one thing. But then also if you don't leave yourself the time to work through that, Miri (00:55:51): If you're already all the way at your limit all the time and thinking, okay, this is maximum efficiency. I'm using all of my energy for everything and I'm doing as much as I possibly can and this is good and I feel great about it. And then you have one bad day. Rekka (00:56:05): The most flexible material in the world still has a point at which it can stretch further or bend no further. I'm not that flexible. I don't know about you, but my skeletons really pesky about like the backbends and everything. Kaelyn (00:56:18): I'm overly flexible in ways that I shouldn't be because my joints are all popping in and out of place constantly. Miri (00:56:23): I've been told it's really inconvenient to be a carbon based life form. Kaelyn (00:56:28): So I'm going to pose a question to both of you guys. Rekka (00:56:30): We were not warned about this. Kaelyn (00:56:34): No, this is a pop quiz. Um, Miri, we always joke that like, you know, we have the really like solid information, heavy episodes and then we have the more like emotional episodes. Miri (00:56:43): This is going to talk about our feelings. Rekka (00:56:47): Which we have. Kaelyn (00:56:49): Um, everything we've said I think can apply to humans across the board in a lot of respects. Ho. wever, I am kind of of the opinion that writers, I should say creative people in general, but writers where they're kind of trying to make their way into being writers and have to create their own career and build that. Do you think this is especially important for writers as a somewhat unique group? Miri (00:57:24): Unique how? Kaelyn (00:57:27): Well, like you had mentioned before, you know, the people who have to hustle, Rekka (00:57:32): Right, so yeah, I mean I don't think we're unique in that we hustle. I don't think we're unique in that we are quote unquote self employed at least in this sphere. But I think this applies to a lot of not only self-employed but creative self employed people. Kaelyn (00:57:48): Definitely. Rekka (00:57:48): Um, this could be people who write marketing copy as well as fiction. Um, there is this perception that you have 24 hours in the day. What are you doing with them? Because when you work for yourself, yeah, there's a, there's a comfort that comes from being employed, like having the security security of walking into a job and knowing exactly how many hours you need to spend at that job that day before you leave and go home and you know, on what date and how much you'll be paid. Freelancers, um, and writers can to a very small degree, build a controlled a schedule like that. But there is always the, if I want more I can just do more. If I want to have more books out, I can write more books. Um, so this goes to the boundaries. What is the shape of that process in your life? Is it pound on the keyboard from 5:00 AM until 7:00 PM maybe eat something, then bring the keyboard to the couch, pound on keyboard till fall asleep if you sleep and you know, get up and do it again. Rekka (00:59:03): Um, so by taking away the boundary that's set by the daily life of the nine to five American dream job, you have removed a boundary and who disrespects our boundaries than ourselves? I do not know. Miri (00:59:23): There isn't any. Rekka (00:59:23): No, I mean, I think I've mentioned, um, maybe on the podcast before that I switched jobs, um, in 2018 and began working from home full time. So my writing space had previously been just my writing space and now it was my writing space and doubled as my day job space. And so I had to build a boundary between my writing, quote unquote physical space. Um, and what I did was I created a new login from my computer that when I was going into, right, I logged in as the writer and then when I was logging into my day job, I had to switch and log into my day job. Rekka (01:00:08): And that did seem to help because it made me realize consciously like, Oh, if I want to go jog over here and do this thing to this file, I actually have to log out and acknowledge I'm going to spend time doing this now. And then it makes me think, is that what I'm supposed to be doing now? Kaelyn (01:00:24): Yeah. You have to, you have to consciously make the decision. Rekka (01:00:27): Um, and it's not, and I have it like I have to type in the password. So I like created this delay period where I can go, I'm not even 6:00 AM, why am I logging into my work? No, nevermind. Back out, you know? Um, and then there's also the physical space where I work from home in a home studio where for the first couple of months after I switched the jobs, I was out here til eight or n

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week is a double header and it’s all about accolades!  First we take a question from one of our Patreon subscribers and talk about starred reviews. What are they, how do you get them, and why is that star such a big deal?  Then it’s on to our second topic: Awards!  They’re pretty awesome if you can get one, but how do you qualify for one and exactly how important to your career are these?  Just keep in mind here, the word of the week is “Subjective”. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, the award you most wish you could win during your life, real or imagined! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Rekka (00:00): So welcome back to another episode of we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. And then sometimes you publish your book and you want people to look at it and you have to figure out how to get them to look at it. And so sometimes it's after the publishing, so sometimes beyond. Kaelyn (00:17): Yeah. So, um, I'm Kaelyn, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:22): I'm Rekka and I'm fired. And I write science fiction and fantasy is RJ theater. Kaelyn (00:28): I'm Kaelyn and I want to go to bed. Rekka (00:30): Yeah, we've been doing this all day. We're backing up some episodes because we both have some travel coming up and we weren't sure when we get together again. So we have gotten to the point of being entirely punchy where, um, luckily this, this clip for the beginning is the last bit we're recording for today. Kaelyn (00:47): But yeah. Um, so this episode, uh, actually came to us from one of our, uh, question from one of our Patreon users, um, who was asking about starred reviews. And that kind of then also segwayed into other things that are given out to especially awesome books, which was awards as we're kind of approaching awards season. Uh, so this, this is a little bit of a split episode. We're gonna talk about starred reviews and industry reviews and then we're gonna talk about awards, Rekka (01:14): But we chose them to fill in the same episode because they are somewhat related in that, you know, you are being, you know, critically reviewed and um, and judged by an outside party who is considered an authority of some sort, whether that's a voting committee, a voting, um, membership or a reviewer for a publication that deals solely with, you know, reviewing books and stuff. Kaelyn (01:40): Exactly. So, um, you know, this is just kind of, I won't say a lot of insider knowledge, but just like a little explanation about some things that are going on behind all of this. Um, you know, in terms of the book reviews, uh, you know, trade publications and who's reviewing these and with the awards, um, we specifically talk about a couple that are relevant to our genre. Rekka (02:06): Our genra specifically. Kaelyn (02:06): Yes. Um, and you know what you have to do to qualify for some of these and what you have to do to be a voting member. So, um, anyway, uh, take a listen as always, we hope you enjoy. And as always, if you have questions, send them to us. Rekka (02:19): Absolutely. We love to answer listener questions because we want to know what gaps we haven't filled in yet. Um, sometimes we look into - Kaelyn (02:26): We may do a whole episode about it. Rekka (02:28): Yeah, we do. Yeah. But sometimes we look at each other and we're like, so what are we talking about this time? And like, you know what, we don't have to decide cause someone asked us a question. So here we go. So we appreciate questions and comments and interaction online. It's, it's all great and we, we really do love it. So thank you for that. And um, in our, to express our thanks. Here's an episode, Kaelyn (03:03): Just jotting stuff down. Rekka (03:03): Keep that in mind, folks. She always takes notes and she never forgets. Kaelyn (03:10): Oh, that's why I write stuff down, written down somewhere. Rekka (03:13): It's not that she hasn't forgotten, but she's going to uncover that note someday and realize that's the thing that you said. So watch what you say. Kaelyn (03:19): Yeah. I, um, something I don't think I've ever brought up on this. I spent three years in college as like the senior student archivist for my university. So I'm very into records Rekka (03:33): Archives are her jam. Kaelyn (03:36): Archives are awesome. They're, you know, they're fun, they're full, full, great stuff. Uh, speaking of things full of great stuff. Rekka (03:42): Hey, I like that segue. It's not a segue if you call attention to it. I've, I've come to understand, Kaelyn (03:47): Oh, that just seems like it's, yeah, that's unfair. Rekka (03:49): That's, yeah, that's not fair. I want to be able to recognize this. That's why you get a gong. So you don't actually say, Hey, nice segue. You just, it just rang a little. Kaelyn (03:57): . Is there like a noise we can insert, you know, to indicate that there's a segue. Okay. Rekka (04:03): You can come up with, we'll do a nice like page flip like, okay. Um, so today's episode topics starts with a question suggested by one of our patrons on patreon.com/WMBcast and Robert D McAdams who says we do not have to give him credit for the question, but we just did anyway. Asks what is a starred review? So we've touched on this in passing in a previous episode, which I'm sure Robert heard, um, when we talked about reviews in general, but a starred review is a very specific term. These are not reviews that come with star ratings like you might find on Amazon. Like, yes, there are stars, but that's not what we're talking about. So what is Kaelyn? A starred review? Kaelyn (04:48): Well, so before we get into that, um, and as Rekka said, we talked about this in the episode, we did all about reviews. Uh, the difference between, you know, reader reviews on good reads and Amazon and industry reviews. Industry reviews are professional trade publications, or you might hear them called the traits and they are exactly what they sound like. People send advanced copies of books to them before publication and there are people there that read them and write a few hundred words on them. Three to maybe 400. This is that - Rekka (05:20): If that. Kaelyn (05:21): Yeah, this is not, this is not going to be a long multiple page insightful exploration of this book Rekka (05:27): Cause they know let's be real. All you wanted was the star review. Kaelyn (05:33): Um, no, but even just general positive review. So there are four major trade publications. I'll start with the most, you know, coveted one publisher's weekly. A publisher's weekly is almost 150 years old. Um, they've been around for a very long time. It's a magazine that you can subscribe to or you can actually pick up on new stands in New York city. Rekka (05:56): Wow. Really? Kaelyn (05:57): Yeah, well publishers weekly is in New York city there. Um - Rekka (05:59): So they distribute locally. Kaelyn (06:01): Yup. So you can actually go to newsstands in New York city and pick up publishers weekly. Rekka (06:05): I have never tried to do that. Kaelyn (06:07): You can have it mailed to you or you can get it online. Of course there's online subscriptions. Every issue, they review a couple of hundred books, um, that are coming out. And if there is a book that they particularly like, um, it is exemplary, uh, they want to denote this book of being as particularly high quality, uh, either in writing or story or what the book accomplishes if someone there, you know, and the process when, how this happens is a little, no one's really quite sure. But anyway, yeah. Rekka (06:45): It's behind a curtain. Kaelyn (06:45): Um, they'll give it a star and that is just, it's a stamp that says we think this book is excellent. How many books do you think every year get a starred review from publishers weekly? What would you say? Rekka (06:59): Is it, is it guaranteed to be one per issue or a certain number per issue? Kaelyn (07:03): There's no guarantee for anything. Rekka (07:04): So there may be an issue where they don't start one at all. Kaelyn (07:07): Correct. They are in no way, shape or form obligated to give out a star. You only earn it on merit. Rekka (07:12): So the idea being this is, you did say coveted, but we're talking extremely coveted and they know you want it. Kaelyn (07:17): Yes. So how many do you think approximately they start in a year? Rekka (07:22): I'm gonna say - Kaelyn (07:23): Keep in mind. They will review thousands and thousands of books. Rekka (07:26): 100? Kaelyn (07:26): About 200. Rekka (07:27): Yeah. Okay. Kaelyn (07:28): Um, you know, sometimes it's a little more, sometimes it's a little less, but that's what they're, they're averaging. Rekka (07:33): See, I lowered it because I'm assuming that all these readers are just freaking sick of books. Kaelyn (07:39): Um, so publishers weekly, uh, Kirkus is kind of the, um, most close competitor of, uh, of publishers weekly. Here's the big difference between them. Uh, publisher's weekly also has like some industry gossip and some forecast kind of things in it. Kirkus is no gossip. It's a very straight forward, you know, here's the book. Here's the reveal. I'm a starred review from Kirkus is also still fantastic. Rekka (08:03): Yup. Kaelyn (08:04): Um, library journal is by the same sister, uh, company as publisher weekly. Uh, library journal, however, as its name implies, is focused more towards libraries. Um, if you're wondering, well why is that different? It's because they're looking at this more from the educational side of the book. Do you think this is a valuable thing that we want to buy? Will people be asking for it? Um, finally there's Booklist a Booklist is perhaps the most kind of all of these. Um, from, you know, things I've read and heard editors and writers at Booklist are encouraged to find something nice to nice to say about the book publishers weekly and Kirk is hold no such compunction. Rekka (08:49): Yes. In fact, sometimes it feels as though they really enjoy taking people to task for things they don't enjoy. Kaelyn (08:56): Yes. Um, library journal tends to be a little more academic and a little more thumbs up, thumbs down. Rekka (09:02): Objective. Kaelyn (09:03): Yeah. This is good for this. It is not good for, this would not recommend for X, Y and Z recommend for, yeah. You know what, they're gonna give you both sides. Rekka (09:10): Like watch out for this, but you might enjoy it if you like this. Kaelyn (09:13): Getting a star in publisher's weekly and Kirkus is a big fucking deal. Rekka (09:19): Um, so it's almost predictive of how your book is going to succeed or not, but not accurately predictive. Let's just say across the board. If you don't get a starred review or you don't get a review at all, it does not mean that your book will not do well. But people do pay attention to which reviews are starred. And at the same time, if they are willing to give it a star, it's because they're not afraid to stick their neck out about how much they like your book. Kaelyn (09:26): Yep. So now you're probably wondering, well, who are these, these kingmakers who are the gods sitting on top of the mountain that, um, decide these things? Um, the answer is a little bit of everyone. Um, there's going to be, you know, published authors, um, editors, school teachers, librarians, people that are involved in this, so hadn't, and you may be going like, okay, well what makes them qualified to do this? A lot of times the reviewers are broken up by subject, by genre, by category, and have some kind of expertise in that area. It could be anything from, I've read extensively about this particular thing and you have to keep in mind, I know we talk about genre fiction a lot on this show. They're reviewing everything, you know, biographies. Rekka (10:30): I'm just about to point that out. Kaelyn (10:31): Yeah, true crime, Rekka (10:32): Everything. Historical fiction, historical documentation style. Kaelyn (10:37): Um, there are viewing everything. So maybe your history teacher, well then you get to read, um, you know, the latest biography of James Madison. Uh, maybe you were in the military, so you get to read the most recent military fiction that you know, comes out. Rekka (10:53): So what you're saying is they're not just sending these out to anyone randomly and haphazardly. Kaelyn (10:58): They're focused with who receives these that said, look, reviews are subjective. You know, it's, um, and again, is there a system of checks and balances? Maybe? Probably. Hopefully. Rekka (11:08): Hopefully. Kaelyn (11:13): You know, I think a lot of people think like, Oh, it's just, you know, college students and whatever. It's really not. They're pretty from everything, you know, I understand they're, they're pretty good about matching the books to the readers, making sure that the people that read these are people that are actually gonna enjoy that kind of book. Now, um, one thing that I will explain, I'm gonna use publisher's weekly as the example for this because they are kind of the, uh, the gold standard here, if you will. Um, so you might be thinking like, well, I have a book that I'm self publishing. Can I just send it over to get a review? Uh, you can't. Um, the reason for this is an - Rekka (11:45): It is gatekeeping. Kaelyn (11:47): It is gatekeeping. Yeah. You need to have the book be distributed. So even if you are with a publisher that only does eBooks, they're still not going to look at it. The book needs to be distributed through a traditional distributor. Rekka (12:02): If your indie publisher only does print on demand through KTP or IngramSpark, which is not like traditional distribution, they're not going to look at it. Kaelyn (12:14): Um, also, and this is where I'm, I start to get a little, uh, Rekka (12:19): Hot under the collar. Kaelyn (12:20): Get my feathers ruffled a little bit is when you go to the, um, the submissions guidelines pages on these, they'll give you a whole list of like, things they want to know. You know, a lot of it is things that you should obviously include, like release date information about the - Rekka (12:36): Targeted audience. Kaelyn (12:37): Targeted audience, that kind of important stuff. They'll also want to know how much are you spending on the marketing campaign? And for those of you who just jumped up out of your seat and went, are you kidding me? No, I'm not. Um, there is absolutely inside circles within this. If you don't think that Amazon and Barnes and noble pay publishers weekly for certain things, you're out of your mind. They do. Um, if you don't think that major publishing houses do things to guarantee eyes on copies of this, they do. Now, can they guarantee a favorable review? Absolutely not. Rekka (13:20): Nope. Kaelyn (13:20): Believe me, they have, you know, I'm sure you can probably find websites that just collect, you know, quote unquote - Rekka (13:27): Devastating reviews. Kaelyn (13:29): You know, and I mean, I've, I've seen some of them. There's definitely, you know, people have written some truly scathing things. Rekka (13:35): Yes. I meant devastating. Kaelyn (13:58): Yeah. About, about people's books. Um, so the other thing to keep in mind is a lot of people that do this are paid kind of on a per review basis. They're definitely, you know, full time staff there and everything. But when you have this many books come in, you don't have that many people sitting in an office just reading these. Um, they get sent out to reviewers who aren't necessarily at the office, read them in their time and then turn in the review. Rekka (14:05): So the people are getting paid on a per view basis, which means they're motivated to read fast and submit as many as possible. Kaelyn (14:13): Do not think that even if you had a thousand people sitting in a room whose only job was to care with, to read every book that came in, they would not get through the pile they receive. They don't have time to read every single word very carefully. Um, so it's, you know, it's, it's a good group of people who truly enjoy what they're doing because they're not making a fortune off of this. Rekka (14:37): Right. Um, but, but they do make more if they get through more books and review more. Kaelyn (14:41): Yeah, exactly. So, um, what, you know is a starred review important, important is not the right word. Nice is a good word. Rekka (14:49): Um, is there a benefit to receiving a starred review? Kaelyn (14:54): Absolutely, it's going to get more attention. Um, it will, you know, it will make other, uh, publications and people within the industry set up and pay attention to it. You're a publisher and you get to go online and talk about how you got to start review. Rekka (15:10): Yup. Other, it's more content you can tweet. Kaelyn (15:12): Other outlets will specifically pay attention to it. Rekka (15:15): Is it the end of the world if you don't get one. Kaelyn (15:17): Absolutely not because most books don't. Rekka (15:19): Right. Kaelyn (15:19): 90 something percent of them do not. Um, then there are books that I have personally read that got starred reviews and I was like, why? Really? Okay. And it's not that they were bad, it was just that, you know, and, but that could just be that whoever it wasn't reviewing it was particularly enjoyed. Rekka (15:40): Interested in that one. Kaelyn (15:40): Yeah. Rekka (15:41): I mean it is, no matter what you try to do at the end of the day, it is subjective. Kaelyn (15:45): It is subjective. Um, a starred review is you did an extra good job. Rekka (15:51): We really, really are excited that you're releasing this into the world. So can, if you get a, a positive review but it's not starred, it's still real helpful. You can still tweet that content. You can still add that blurb to your, if there's a usable blurb in it, you can still add that to your um copy. Kaelyn (16:10): Anytime somebody reviews your book and publishes it, that review is yours. Now you can quote it, you can put it on the book. You can do, you know, that is them offering that into the world for you to use. Rekka (16:22): Yeah. Kaelyn (16:22): Um, so if you have a pog- you know, you'll see a lot of books you pick up that say, uh, you know, an astounding tour de force author, you know, completely redefines the genre or whatever and it'll just say such and such publisher's weekly. Rekka (16:39): Yup. Kaelyn (16:39): And that's, you know, that's a great thing to have if you have a review and it's not starred, but it's still good review. That's great. Most authors do not or never will have a starred review. It's like winning an Oscar, you know. Rekka (16:55): And by its rarity makes it more valuable, exactly why they are going to be invested in not giving them out to everybody, which means the difference between this and an Oscar is they don't have to give out one of these. Kaelyn (17:07): Right. Rekka (17:08): And the 200 that you mentioned are across all genre. So how many books are coming out in your specific genre each year or each, you know, yes. A year. How many books are coming out in your specific genre each year is they're only going to get a slice of those and those aren't promised to be distributed evenly across the genre. It might be a big year for biographies and you're just out of luck. Kaelyn (17:28): Yup. Yeah. So, um, start reviews are great if you get one. They are by no stretch of the imagination, the end of the world if you don't. So, you know, before we wrap that up, um, I was talking a lot about publishers weekly and I mentioned Kirkus as kind of being, you know, the counterpart to publisher's weekly. Just a couple, you know, things to clarify real quick. Um, about Kirkus and a few things that are unique about them. Um, as I'd mentioned, a, uh, publisher's weekly and library journal are a sister publications. They're both owned by Reed business organization, which puts out a whole bunch of different trade magazines. Like they put a variety. Rekka (18:11): Okay. Kaelyn (18:11): Too for instance. Rekka (18:11): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:23): Um, these are glossy magazine type things. They're going to have pictures of the cover and you know, the thing in nice font and everything Kirkus is not glossy. It's like newspaper reprint paper. There's no pictures. It's black and white and it's just the title, the author, the review. Yeah. Here's the thing about Kirkus. Um, it costs money to get them to review your book. It's over $400. Why? Because Kirkus is kind of considering themselves a cut above. Uh, they really try to be objective, I guess, which I'm not sure how that works when you're asking for money. Rekka (18:52): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:53): Well, like I had mentioned, you know, like publisher's weekly has like, you know, they do some like industry gossip and that kinds of Kirkus it doesn't do that. It's very - Rekka (19:00): Right, they're trying to leave out everything, but the, what they think you are, you want out of their publication, they have a format that the reviews follow. That's pretty consistent so that you know what you're getting when you ask for a review. Just you don't know what they're going to think of it. Kaelyn (19:17): Yeah. So here's a, just an, another little thing about Kirkus. Kirkus had a controversial couple of years ago. Uh, they took back a star on a book. Rekka (19:29): Yup. Kaelyn (19:30): Um, I won't mention the book exactly. Um, they - Rekka (19:35): It's easy to find. Kaelyn (19:36): It's very easy to find. Yeah. They gave it a starred review and then there, I mean - Rekka (19:42): There was a backlash. Kaelyn (19:43): There was backlash. Um, it was social backlash and Kirkus maybe not being as sensitive towards some things as they should have and they took it back. To my knowledge, that's the only time that's ever happened. Rekka (19:57): Yeah. It's the only one mentioned on the Wikipedia page about Kirkus. So, um, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Maybe it's taught them to be more careful so that it doesn't have to happen. Kaelyn (20:06): I mean, across trade publications in general. To my knowledge, and I did look for this. I could not find another instance of that ever happening. Rekka (20:14): Okay. Kaelyn (20:15): Um, if, if you know of one, let us know. Rekka (20:18): @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram and yeah. Um, yeah, the, I cannot imagine what it felt like to be an author who believed they received a star review and then had it rescinded because it was determined that their book made them a bad human. Yeah. Um, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the decision because I really don't, I don't know the book, but as an author, I cannot imagine how heartbreaking that must be. Yeah. So hopefully everyone's learned their lesson and this won't have to happen again, but it probably will in this day and age, honestly. Kaelyn (20:52): Yeah. Um, to be honest with you, I'm surprised it took that long for it to happen. Um, this was two years ago, I think, 2017 that this happened. Um, and it was, you know, it was big news when it happened. Rekka (21:06): Um, so if you bring it up, I'm sure you could get people heated up over even now. Kaelyn (21:09): Oh God. So don't. Rekka (21:10): Don't do that. Don't do it. Um, but we only bring it up because it does show that there is historical precedent for a star being removed, removed after someone quote unquote earned it. Kaelyn (21:20): Yeah. So that it just kinda goes to show that, you know, like, yes, review magazines are supposed to kind of be the authority, the authority, and they are supposed to have the ability to review at their discretion, but sometimes they do have to take other things into consideration after they've already done that. Rekka (21:41): Yep. Kaelyn (21:41): Um, so anyway, start reviews. Um, they're, they're great if you can get them. If not, it is in no way, shape or form the end of the world or your writing career in that order. Rekka (21:53): But that is what I started review is to answer your question, Robert, that's, um, that's what they are. That's how they're different from the, uh, reader reviews and maybe peer reviews that you might get from other authors. Um, or even, you know, just great blurbs from other people who might be, you know, like if you're writing a science fiction story like the Martian and an astronaut gave you a review and astronaut can give you an excellent review and it might look great on your cover, but it does not qualify as a starred review. Kaelyn (22:21): Yup. So, um, there you go. Yeah. Rekka (22:24): And Kaelyn can, can I have an astronaut reviewing my book? Kaelyn (22:27): Absolutely. Rekka (22:28): Let's get one get that arranged would ya please? Awesome. So something else, let's just speaking of accolades, accolades and uh, pinning your dreams to receiving one. Yes, it's award season as we record this. Meaning there are a lot of authors out there, very hopeful that their book might gain notice and end up shortlisted for a literary award within there's genre. Kaelyn (22:56): I'm going to qualify all of this by saying I am going to do everything I can to be positive Rekka (23:04): Hold back feelings. Kaelyn (23:04): Be positive. New Speaker (23:07): Kaelyn has some feelings about awards. Kaelyn (23:08): Well, here's the thing. They're great. It really is like wonderful. Rekka (23:13): As you were just saying it's fantastic if you get one. Kaelyn (23:16): Yes. Rekka (23:16): It is not the end of your career or a reflection of you as a human being or writer if you don't. Kaelyn (23:23): Yeah. So let's, uh, let's real quick talk about some awards now. We, you know, as we say frequently on this, uh, we, we both work in genre fiction, um, specifically science fiction and fantasy. Um, that said there are a lot of awards out there that can range to something small and local to the Nobel prize in literature, which I don't think they give out for just one book. You've got to have a pretty stellar career Rekka (23:51): Yeah. That's, that's more lifetime achievement award than a specific project. Um, unlike the Nobel prize for science where you might get it for one project and project for, if you're going to be a writer, you're not going to cure cancer with one book. Kaelyn (24:07): I don't think that's humanly possible unless it's a book on how to cure cancer. Rekka (24:13): Well, maybe you never can tell. Um, there's a lot of money in pharmaceuticals to treating people with cancer. You know, there's, there are some players behind those curtains moving against you. But, um, yeah, so the, the awards we're talking about are the annual awards that review much like tax seasons, the years prior activity in that genre, and someone needs to nominate you and enough people need to nominate you to put you toward the top of the list, which then is skimmed very, very much just the top of that list gets put on the ballot. Kaelyn (24:52): Yeah, there's usually. Well, it's like any award thing, you know, there's going to be five, maybe six choices in a category. Um, so typically what you'll find in, uh, industry, and this is, I'm, I'm fairly sure this is true across genres. There's association, there's guilds, there's, um, you know, groups that award these things. You have to be a member to vote in them. Rekka (25:17): But not a member usually to be nominated. Kaelyn (25:20): No. Um, because a lot of times to qualify for membership for these things, you might not be at that stage in your career yet. Um, but they, not all of them are just open to the general public. Some of them are the Hugo's - Rekka (25:33): The Hugo's are open to the general public . Kaelyn (25:34): - are open to the general public, um, the nebulas are not. Um, so just real quick, uh, we're talking specifically about the nebulas which are given out by the, uh, by SFWA, the science fiction and fantasy writers of America. So that is, um, American and therefore fairly English speaking centric. Uh, the Hugo's are also pretty English-speaking. Rekka (25:53): Yes. Though that is a global, but it is a global organization. The conference itself pops about the world each year. Um, and we say it's open to the public. You do have to pay to become a member for the year in which you want to vote. But there is no qualification like royalties or book sales or anything like that like there is with SFWA. Kaelyn (26:14): Yup. So SFWA is more of a professional organization because they are the science fiction and fantasy writers of America. Um, they are ma, they are very much geared towards like if anyone listening has ever gone to the nebulous conference. Um, a lot of the panels and discussions are career oriented. Um, the Hugo's are a little bit more readership oriented. Um, so that's, you know, that's just a, that's just a difference in a distinguishing point there. Uh, that said, you're going to see a lot of the people nominated across both of them. Rekka (26:45): Yes. The list will look very familiar across them because the people who are nominating tend to be members of more than just one. Yeah. It's like also they let's, you know, get right down to where we're going with this. The books are stand out in their category before they're nominated. Kaelyn (27:04): Yeah. It's kind of like the Oscars and the golden Globes and stuff. You know, the good stuff is the good stuff that's going to be already know what's going up there before anyone else finishes the year out with their own stuff. Now there's of course, all kinds of literary awards given out. There's awards that are specifically, you know, for children's books. Uh, there's awards for every genre and group is going to have their own awards that they give out. Um, you can go find lists of these online if it's something that you're interested in. Here is where, um, I get a little cynical with these things. Uh, one is that again, sometimes these can be hard to get nominated for if you're not traditionally published. Rekka (27:40): Right. Kaelyn (27:54): Um, this is, you know, I won't beat around the Bush here. This isn't a secret. You can go online and find out this kind of stuff easily. If you're self published, you're going to have a really hard time being taken seriously in some of these communities. It's getting better, but it's still not quite to where it, I personally think it should. Rekka (27:59): Right. Just like your family likes to hold your holiday traditions in a certain way, people do not like to let go of what they're comfortable with. And a lot of these associations were going back to their beginnings, traditionally published authors, and they saw no reason to change it yet. Kaelyn (28:18): So that's very, so like for instance, with SFWA it can be very hard to get into SFWA because you have to either have a job relevant to the industry and be recommended by a certain number of people. They need to actually write you a letter of recommendation to be admitted. Or to qualify as an author, you have to have a certain number of words published and have made a certain amount off of them in a year. Rekka (28:46): Yup. Single calendar year. Kaelyn (28:50): In a single calendar year. Um, it's not an absurdly difficult to reach some of money. Rekka (28:56): It's not impossible. And if your book takes off, even just moderately successful, you probably going to get there. Kaelyn (29:02): But if you're not a fulltime self-publishing author, it's hard. Yeah, you can go look up all the SFWA qualification stuff, but in their defense, it is a professional organization. Their goal is not when you're not here to have members that are trying to become authors. We are an established group of authors and writers already, right. Rekka (29:26): Unlike the RWA, which has gone through its own, um, metamorphosis this year, which you can find out about elsewhere if you haven't already. But, um, they have traditionally invited in aspiring authors as well as published authors. Kaelyn (29:41): Now, all of this that I'm saying about SFWA, SFWA is a fantastic organization. Um, they are an excellent resource for, you know, even if you're not a published author and you're trying to - Rekka (29:53): You're welcome to come to the nebulas whether or not you remember anyone can, can show up. Kaelyn (29:58): Um, they have a lot of good resources that, and people that they can put you in touch with. Um, they have a really good legal team that helps people with various, you know, issues that they may come up against. Rekka (30:11): Yup. There's a, a service just called a writer beware, which alerts people in a single location where, um, they can find out like, Hey, you want to watch out for this company? They have bad practices. You, you know, their contracts are gotchas and all this kind of stuff and, and you can look out for that stuff. Kaelyn (30:51): Um, whether or not you're a member, that's, that's all public information on their website. So they have a lot of great resources for people and, um, they have become sort of a, you know, a beacon to which science fiction and fantasy writers will flock. Yeah. And they're, um, they're, I know a lot of people in it. They're very nice people. Um, you know, that said, just be aware that if you are self published, it's - Rekka (30:59): It's more challenging. It's more challenging to gain entry to gain entry into find yourself particularly welcomed there. Um, and it's even more challenging to get nominated for something there. Um, the Hugo's, I would even say it's also very challenging with that. So back to, you know, so back to the awards, the things you're, you know, it's, think of the typical kind of awards you're going to get. Best short fiction, best novel, best novella, novelette, um, best, all of the various writings. Kaelyn (31:27): Now, um, game writers are starting to get more recognition. So there's a game writing award. There are sort of lifetime achievements, uh, service awards, things like that. Rekka (31:37): And then you, you have the big one, which is, you know, best novel, a novel of the year. Kaelyn (31:41): That's the best picture standing, whatever. Rekka (31:44): Um, there are career marker ones. Like, um, the beginning of a career is the outstanding award for science fiction. Um, from the Hugo, um, awards. You know, the process of getting nominated. It's, it's really like, it's exactly the way you'd get nominated for most things. You submit, there's going to be a short list that comes out within that short list. The list will be shortened further and those will be the finalists. Kaelyn (32:10): Yeah. So, um, that's another thing that it's like, it's a great feather in your cap if you have it. Most people will go through their lives without having one, one of these. And that does not mean they had to not have a successful writing career. Rekka (32:40): Right. You're going to get a temporary uptick from winning these awards. It is not going to be career lasting. Now, if you somehow manage to sweep these awards and keep getting them year after year, then that's great. But then, I mean, then people are going to start rooting against you to see you and seated by some new up and comer because you know, you've been boring them by being the predictable winner every year. Kaelyn (32:45): Um, so, you know, that's just a little about awards. It's, you know, we were kind of like, okay, well we had a question about starred reviews in the industry. I don't think we could do a full episode of that. And we were like, you know, what's also a nice thing to have but not a full episodes worth is you know, industry awards. Rekka (32:57): Um, you know, the fact is that your book for an award like that needs to have hype before it gets nominated. So the nomination is not going to hype your book because your book has already hyped people nominated because they already know about it and have already read it. So it's not like each nomination is um, you know, guaranteed new reader or anything like that on the level. Kaelyn (33:20): It's very difficult to get nominated for one of these. You could have written and outstanding book. I know someone who got a starred review for their book that is probably not going to be nominated for anything this year. Rekka (33:38): There are a lot of books released every year and the list is short and it really does come down to who do you know that can nominate you and is willing to or wants to. Um, you know, it's, it's a numbers game. It really is because there's so many awards. Lots, you know, nomination slots and there's way more books than that. And it really comes down to, you know, unlike the numbers game of like, um, market submissions and stuff like that for publications. This is also like, you've, you've got to already know enough people are fanatic for your book that, um, they're going to vote for it. Kaelyn (34:16): Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I know I keep referencing the Oscars, but like, you know, the Academy awards, people don't just watch a bunch of movies and then decide they like this one. There's marketing campaigns and you gotta take out ads and it's very personal and who, you know, and, um, it's almost like trying to get Senate votes. It's a four year consideration type thing. Um, you know, books, obviously it's not, it's not the same kind of setup. It takes a lot longer to get for a book than it does through a movie. Rekka (34:47): But and that's tricky because like, you know, if I look at, uh, an awards nomination list and say, I know I'm going to be voting because I'm a member of that year of, of that association, I look at that list and I don't go, okay, I guess I gotta read all of these and then vote. Yeah. I vote for the one that I did read and enjoyed. Yeah. If I have, you know, if I had time, I'd absolutely read the rest of them, but like I don't always have the time. Yeah. So I'm going to vote for the one that I read and enjoyed, not knowing whether I would have enjoyed some of the others on the list more or that they are more or less worthy. Like it's, it's, Ooh, I know that name. Kaelyn (35:26): It's, look, it's like the reviews. I mean, this, this episode is about subjective things. Very subjective. This is, you know, and I don't think I've ever seen books. I didn't like nominated or win anything. It's not that the books that are getting nominated, it's, you know, because a lot of people know this person or knew about the book and the book wasn't good and they got nominated. Rekka (35:50): Right. And I've seen books that I have read that I would have said, okay, well that book's just not for me. But that doesn't mean the book was bad. Kaelyn (35:59): Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's an important part of understanding the subjective nature of this in anything with this as just because the book, not every book is meant for you. Um, you know, we talk a lot about your target demographics and audiences and things, and there's nothing wrong with taking a step back and saying the writing is good. I just can't get behind the plot or this character - Rekka (36:20): Or I just, this doesn't appeal to that trope that for whatever reason, even though it's very popular. Kaelyn (36:26): Yeah. Not every book nominated is going to be something that you were in love with. You may not have heard of some of the books that were nominated just because they didn't cross your path. Um, but I think their general, you know, Rekka (36:36): The lists are usually good. It doesn't look like someone bought their way on no, but, but they have and that's because let's like, okay, just straight talk. A lot of books come out every year and a lot of them are really good. Kaelyn (36:51): Yup. And things tend to not get published if they're really bad. Rekka (36:56): I mean not always, but the evidence is there to suggest that the people who pick and purchase books know what they're doing. Yeah. Um, and I'm not just saying that cause I'm in the room with one of them. Kaelyn (37:07): Um, I know what I'm doing? Rekka (37:12): Um, but the fact is there are excellent books out there and everybody who gets published deserves to be published with, you know, asterisk on that I'm sure. But like I mean that with my heart, like if you were a writer and you, and you do this cause you love it and you work very hard and you do everything you can then like you've already done it. Yeah. Like, who cares if you're going to get an award to sit on your mantle and let me tell you, nobody wants to see you posting a photo of that to social media every day and in a month they're going to forget that you want, so don't Kaelyn (37:44): worry about it. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things that if it happens in your career, that's amazing. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean you're not a success. Rekka (37:52): Right. Or if you win it, that's awesome. You deserved it. You might also have wanted if the right people also deserve it, you might also deserve it. Yeah. I wish we could give them out like candy, but that's not how these things work. Kaelyn (38:05): Yeah. So, um, anyway, you know, that's just, that's kind of the episode of subjectiveness. Rekka (38:11): Um, um, don't pin your dreams on someone else's opinion. Kaelyn (38:15): Oh yeah. I like that. Rekka (38:16): You like that one. Okay. There's the title, but um, yeah, I, I think they combine well into the same episode because they are, they are bingo card goals. Kaelyn (38:26): It's awesome. If you got one, do not be hard on yourself. Rekka (38:30): If you have, if you haven't yet, even at the end of a very long career, you'll probably have great sales, especially if you made a full career event, but you may never get one of these things. And that's just the way that these dominoes fall. Kaelyn (38:36): Yeah. Hey, so speaking of accolades and uh, you know, giving out good stuff to people, uh, you can give us a review online. Rekka (38:51): Yes. And we will treasure it as though it were a star from Kirkus or a pretty statue of a rocket ship. Kaelyn (38:57): We would prefer five stars though, not just one. Rekka (39:00): Correct. I very much agree with that statement. Kaelyn (39:05): So yeah, if you can drop us a, a review online, that's great. Rekka (39:08): You know, speaking of things that are good and draw your attention to stuff, uh, you know, it just, it helps with, you know, feed the algorithms and get us in front of more people. And when someone's searching for writing podcasts, they'll go, Oh, well this one gets starred reviews regularly. Kaelyn (39:22): Yup. Rekka (39:23): You can find us on Apple podcasts or iTunes, depending on your Mac iOS system, you can find us on, um, all the various places that you can aggregate your podcasts for your listening enjoyment such as Spotify and, and Google play and all those others. So, um, we want to be convenient for you, but it would be super convenient for us if you could leave that review on Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes just to get them all in one spot one way or another. Unfortunately, that's, we all serve at the altar of Apple at Steve jobs. Um, so we would appreciate that. Um, you can also join in conversation with us at WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram and you can find the entire archive of all our past episodes at WMB, cast.com. Kaelyn (40:11): So Robert, thanks for the question. Um, you know, anyone else there that has questions they'd like to send us? Obviously we, you know, we do take the time to answer them. We pay attention to those things. Rekka (40:21): No question is too small for us to make a whole episode or half of one or, or come up with a way to peg on. Kaelyn (40:27): Yep. We'll do it. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you in two weeks. New Speaker (40:27):    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about awesome and sometimes scary world of social media.  Here’s the thing: Rekka is a pro and Kaelyn is terrified of it, so you, kind listener get to hear it from both sides.  Social media can be a very important tool in your publishing arsenal but it’s also a really intimidating place, especially if you’re new.  This week, we’re talking about ups and down of social media, what to keep an eye out for, how to be a good online citizen, and how to manage both your expectations and stress. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the best story you have about cover copy that resulted in reading a very different book from what you thought you were getting.. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (00:07): Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the, We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:16): And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:20): And this is a stressful episode for me. Rekka (00:22): We have Kaelyn tucked comfortably under a blanket. We've got to heat her on her. She's wearing comfy clothes. We gave her stuffed animals and hot tea just to try and entice her to even have this conversation. New Speaker (00:36): So we're talking about social media today. Rekka (00:39): Um, we do focus a lot on Twitter because it's probably the place where social media finds you getting yourself most into trouble. And so we had a lot of discussions on pitfalls, warnings, how to be a good citizen of the internet and so on and so forth. And so most of this episode does focus on Twitter, but we touch on a few things that I think are true across all of the social media platform. Kaelyn (01:03): Yeah. And we're kind of on opposite sides of this here because, um, I, I do not enjoy social media. Um, it's a pretty significant source of anxiety for me. I just, it's, you'll hear more about it in the episode. I'm, I'm just not, not a big fan. So, uh, that said, I do recognize the importance of it and you know, the tricks and tools to navigating it. So we talk a lot about that as well in here. Rekka (01:29): So, and I use social media fairly frequently. I don't necessarily tweet every day or put something on Instagram every day. I definitely do not add stuff to Facebook. But yeah, I use Twitter probably the most. I use Instagram second most. Twitter is the easiest one to sort of fall into a habit of just interacting with because even if I don't have anything to say, I can probably find something from a friend that I can retweet. So I am generally active on Twitter. And so while it doesn't necessarily cause me anxiety unless we're having a particularly bad news cycle, which lately, um, but I do find myself opening it as a matter of habit for the dopamine hit of seeing new stuff. Kaelyn (02:11): Yeah. And see, I don't get the dopamine hit. I get the anxiety spike. Rekka (02:15): The cortisol spike. Kaelyn (02:16): I get the cortisol spike. Rekka (02:17): Yeah. So if you get nothing but cortisol spikes, you've got some advice for you and if you are more willing to dive into it, we've just got some general advice and how not to put your foot in it on Twitter. Kaelyn (02:29): Yeah, it's um, look, you know, it's not for everyone and you know, we, we talk about this in this episode and um, but it is an important tool for interacting with communities and Hey, speaking of interacting with communities, Rekka (02:43): yes, we have feedback from someone who left us and left us a really nice review review. Kaelyn (02:50): Uh, lelalime. Rekka (02:51): We're going to assume that's how it's pronounced. Kaelyn (02:54): Lelalime, I like it. Okay. Um, high quality content for those looking to publish. So glad I found this podcast. The distribution episodes are amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Lelalime. Rekka (03:03): And how many stars did we get? New Speaker (03:04): Five stars! Rekka (03:05): Tell me again. I love it. All right, so if you have been enjoying this podcast or if at the end of this episode, perhaps as your first episode, you find that you did enjoy this podcast. We would super appreciate a rating and review because it helps new people find us when they are browsing podcasts in these podcasts. You know, browsers as it turns out. So, um, if you don't think that you're, if you've already left a review, you can still help new people find us by sharing the episode with a friend. If you think it would be something they're interested in - Kaelyn (03:36): On Twitter. Rekka (03:36): On Twitter, maybe. Perhaps. Kaelyn (03:39): So, anyway, speaking of, let's, uh, let's, let's, let's - Rekka (03:43): Let's get this over with for Kaelyn Kaelyn (03:44): Let's just do it. Enjoy everyone. Rekka (03:57): So I've got to tell you, Kaelyn did not want to have this conversation. Kaelyn (04:01): I didn't. Rekka (04:01): She still doesn't. She's only here because it's snowing and she can't go home. Kaelyn (04:07): That's not, okay, first of all, I love snow. So that is like, if we could sit outside and record this in the snow, I'd feel a lot better. Rekka (04:15): Maybe if it were 60 degrees and snowing outside. It's not quite that. Kaelyn (04:19): I see. I don't, I don't know. I don't mind. It's not, it's not terrible. Rekka (04:22): Something about snow feels like it softens the cold a little bit. Kaelyn (04:26): Yeah. Rekka (04:26): But when we're walking through parking lots with it blowing in my face, I was not feeling like it was comfortable. Kaelyn (04:30): Because the thing is that the snow ups the humidity level immediately. So I know that doesn't sound like it's a good thing, but it does actually make it a little bit warmer. Rekka (04:41): Which is weird because cold foggy days feel colder. Kaelyn (04:44): Yes, yes. You know what? That's freezing fog. I'm not one of these fancy weather scientists Rekka, okay? Rekka (04:54): Or weather magicians even. Kaelyn (04:55): Definitely not one of those. Rekka (04:58): But yeah, we're talking about social media today and um, I will, although Kaelyn already tried to get us to talk about snow for an hour instead, Kaelyn (05:05): I look, I had a whole bullet point list of interesting points, fun facts, uh, reasons we should all enjoy snow. It's, I was told no, we're going to talk about Twitter instead. Um, so I will just say a upfront, I, I am not that into social media. Um, those of you who listen to the show regularly who follow us will probably notice I don't interact on Twitter that much. Rekka (05:28): Um, no matter how many times I tag her. Kaelyn (05:30): Social media to be blunt, gives me a lot of anxiety. Um, I just, part of it is my personality. I'm a very private person. Um, I don't put a lot of my personal stuff out into the world. I just don't really do it. Um, also I had a very traumatic experience when I first joined Twitter. Um, so I had avoided Twitter for a very long time and when I came on at they were kind of like, Oh, okay, what's your Twitter handle for your business cards? And I said, I don't have Twitter. And they were like, Kaelyn, you need to get Twitter. I know, I don't, it's fine. No, Kaelyn, you have to have Twitter. Okay, fine. So I created a Twitter - Rekka (06:09): So your Twitter account is not consensual. Kaelyn (06:13): So I created a Twitter account. I went online, I followed my coworkers, a few of our authors at parvus. And then the first one person, person, quote unquote, I found that I wanted to individually follow was uh, the first cat of the newly elected prime minister of New Zealand. And this cat's name was paddles. And paddles was like, poly dactyl had like, you know, says she had like these giant feet and they called her paddles cause it looked like, you know, she had paddles on and I was like, Aw, this is adorable. And tweeting about all these cute little animal things, two days later Paddles died. Rekka (06:49): Rip. Kaelyn (06:49): Paddles got hit by a car and - Rekka (06:53): Keep your cats inside folks. Kaelyn (06:55): That to me was the signal from the universe of Kaelyn, you do not belong on Twitter. Rekka (07:03): If you friend and follow people on Twitter, you will destroy their lives. Kaelyn (07:07): Oh God. You say that. But like I'm genuinely concerned that's going to happen. Anyway. So the whole point is that um, you're actually gonna get some interesting perspective in this episode because Rekka is a prolific social media user and very good at it. I avoid it, only interact when absolutely necessary and even then still sometimes try to avoid that. Rekka (07:30): Yup. Um, so if you feel like Kaelyn about social media, no, but like this is really one of the points that I was going to bring up in this episode. You do not have to be on social media. You really don't. Everyone's going to tell you that you do. Kaelyn (07:47): We've told you a few times that you do. Rekka (07:50): Yeah. But if you're not going to use it, if it causes you mental grief and anxiety, yeah. If it's not an effective tool for you and you don't enjoy interacting on it or it distracts you from your actual work, it's not a tool for you. Delegate it to someone else. If you feel like you must have a Twitter presence and if you say, well, I'm not a big enough author yet to do that, just reserve the username come back later. Kaelyn (08:24): So we keep saying Twitter. Um, Twitter is of course not the only social media out there, but you know, let's not sugarcoat that. It's the most commonly used, especially in writing, Rekka (08:33): I would say in the author sphere. Twitter is big. Um, indie author sphere actually Facebook is pretty fricking big. Kaelyn (08:39): Okay. Rekka (08:39): Um, there are a lot of authors, especially those who came from a background of fanfic that use Tumblr. I would say if you've never seen Tumblr before, like don't even, don't even go there. I go to Tumblr, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm looking like when did this post become other people's replies? Like I don't like it's just, using it - Kaelyn (08:59): Every now and then, I've tried to look on Tumblr and I just don't understand what I'm seeing. Rekka (09:04): Every now and then. I, yeah, I follow a link that someone else's referenced. Um, you know, a friend of the podcast, Alexander Roland, um, has a couple of articles and they live on Tumblr and I've read the articles, but like, as soon as I figure out that I'm no longer reading the article and suddenly I'm reading comments somehow, like I, I just leave because that's not why I'm there. So, um, Tumblr is a whole sphere of like social media biome on its own. And I would not say it's a huge one unless you already exist there as a real person with a background of interacting with people, I don't think you're going to set up a new tumbler as an emerging author and really find footing there. Kaelyn (09:42): It does seem to be an, I would be curious to, there's gotta be statistics on this somewhere, the new users on Tumblr because it seems like there is a large group that got in when it was first a thing and everyone else is like us where we've looked at and go, Nope, Nope. You know what, I'm good. Rekka (10:15): Yeah. I do not need to participate in this. I'm, I don't know why I don't get tumbler because in terms of layout, it reminds me a lot of live journal, which I spent years on, but there's some disconnect in my brain between, and maybe it's because it's too close to live journal. Um, but there's some disconnect in my brain where I just, I look at it and I'm so confused. Um, LiveJournal by the way, not a social media platform you really have to worry about right now. Um, the other one being Facebook and which we touched on real quick and Instagram, Instagram and Instagram is becoming more and more of a medium that people use to communicate. Kaelyn (10:34): But I feel like it doesn't hold conversations as much as Twitter. Rekka (10:36): It does not hold conversations well. Um, without a certain prestige level and paid ads, you can't really provide links so you have to make that one link that you can put in your user profile, really do its work, which we'll get into that too. Um, or actually I'm afraid we won't get into that because I'm afraid we're going to talk mostly about Twitter and I think that's fair guess I, so I'm just going to say, um, for your Instagram, um, any social media profile where you only have one spot to put a link, look into the service link tree for, um, making that link go all the different places you might want it to go. Kaelyn (11:11): Yeah. Um, we are in this going to talk mostly about Twitter for the reasons we just gave. Um, some of these will, some of the things we're going to say of course will apply across the board, but for purposes here, it is really gonna mostly be Twitter. Rekka (11:25): And the reason it's not more Facebook because there's plenty of an audience on Facebook and I think we're all pretty familiar with how it works is because Facebook is very, very intentionally squashing anything but personal pages on people's walls. So in order you're not going to go onto Facebook and find an organic audience that is a thing of the past. You are going to pay for your audience and you're also going to have to pay to make your posts, reach the people who already chose to follow you. So it's really, I mean, Facebook is winning. The house always wins on Facebook and um, so unless you are prepared to spend marketing bucks, like I wouldn't worry about Facebook as a social media platform. Kaelyn (12:08): Yeah. So focus is primarily Twitter here. So let's talk about all the reasons it scares the hell out of me. Rekka (12:15): Yeah. Why don't we start with you. How does this make you feel Kaelyn? Kaelyn (12:20): Not great. Um, you know, as I had said, I, a lot of my reluctance to use Twitter is I don't like putting a lot of my life out there in the world. Rekka (12:33): Okay. So that's one bullet point that I did want to address. Um, you need to be authentic. That doesn't mean you need to bare your whole ass on social media. You can react to things the way that is natural to you as a human being. Like you might in-person or you might interact with someone at a book reading. You still want to, you know, convey your personality in your tweets, but that does not mean you need to tweet about like personal details or your family's health situation or your finances. You do not have to share anything with somebody that you aren't comfortable making part of your public portfolio because that's what you are doing. Kaelyn (13:14): Yeah. And look, I mean people do it definitely. Um, - Rekka (13:18): We are not recommending it. Kaelyn (13:20): Yeah. It's, you know, look, if you know, there's something on your mind that you want to get out there and you have, you know, people online that you've talked to about this stuff, Rekka (13:28): But again, that's that you want to get out there. I'm saying, you know, as an author profile, don't feel that you need to be posting 24 times a day, which means once per hour, which means some pretty great finding fine grain stuff about your life that is either not interesting, not relevant or not anyone's business. And then if you put all that stuff out there about yourself, then there are people who may become obsessed with you and then all that information is in their hands to do with us. They will. And they may not become obsessed with you for good reasons. Misery or worse. Kaelyn (14:04): Yeah. And it's, you have to remember that anything you put out there, anyone can see, unless you have some very locked down sort of account things. Rekka (14:16): There are twitter profiles where the profile itself is locked. But then that's not doing the social media thing. Kaelyn (14:20): Yeah, exactly. So then you're kind of defeating the purpose of what you had meant to do to begin with. Rekka (14:27): On Facebook, you can choose whether a post is global or just your friends or private or just a group of friends that you've set up. But Twitter, it's account level locked down or not now. Kaelyn (14:37): So on that note, I will say that another thing I found very intimidating that Twitter is, I barely knew how it worked. I understood the premise of it. Do you know how long it took me to figure out how to reply to a tweet rather than retweet it? It was embarrassing. Rekka (14:53): You know, it's funny is, um, there's a movie called Chef starring John Favreau, and if you haven't seen the movie, I do recommend it. And the premise of the movie is kicked off by him starting an accidental Twitter war with a food critic, restaurant critic, because he did not understand that he was not sending him direct messages and he, speaking of being bare ass on the internet, showed his whole ass to the internet and, um, became infamous rather than famous. And eventually it all worked out for him because it's Hollywood. But, um, you know, that's, that's not really a good look. So be sure that you understand as can suggest how to use the technology so that you're not inadvertently doing things that you don't realize you are. Kaelyn (15:50): That's the thing is that I, I've never been a very online person. Um, I, when Facebook became a thing when I was in college and this was, you know, if there's any of our younger listeners out there, you used to need an email address that ended in.edu to sign up for Facebook. What they were doing was they were adding certain colleges and universities at a time. It was just their way to onboard everyone, so it wasn't like a deluge of users. So when my university got Facebook, it still took me over a year and a half to sign up for it. I just was not interested in it. I have never been someone who really lives and exists online. And to that end, I don't know a lot of the lingo and the terms and etiquette even, and it's very scary because I know they exist. I just don't know what they are. And the last thing I want to do is go online and put my foot in my mouth. Rekka (16:44): Right. And if that is something that you feel like is more likely to happen than not, maybe just as I said, reserve the username. Maybe you're already using a username for your domain name or on Instagram. I mean like if there is social media that you do use and you are comfortable with, just grab the same name so that you can keep your branding consistent. Um, cause it's a lot easier to say we're WMBcast on Instagram and Twitter than it is to say I'm WMBcast on Twitter and WMBcast147 on Instagram because somebody's got to the name before you bothered to get around and register it. You don't have to use it. They're not going to close the account if you don't use it. Just make sure that you update your email if you change it and your contact information. So later in life when you decide, I do need to be using Twitter as a platform. You can hire a virtual assistant to handle your Twitter, you know, content for you with a, um, with the caveat that that means you are not going to be very authentic on Twitter because someone else will be posting for you, which means you've planned out your posts in advance, which means that's really more of a marketing campaign then you being on Twitter. Kaelyn (17:50): Yeah. And that's um, I think that's another good point to talk about is what you're using Twitter for. Um, you know, I know a lot of people that like that's how they talk to a lot of their friends most of the time, you know, everyone just kinda hangs out - Rekka (18:05): Like big public chat room. Kaelyn (18:06): Yeah. Everyone just kinda hangs out on Twitter. Um, for some people it is more of a marketing type thing, um, or it's just sort of a like, Hey, I'm out there, here's some stuff that's going on. But it's not really a Twitter about them. It's about their work. Rekka (18:21): Which is fine and that's the way you use it. And if someone follows you, seeing that content and they are comfortable following, you know, they don't unfollow you because they realize like, like you're not describing your Disney vacation to them, then that's fine. And you can even set it up so that you don't have to post that content yourself. Like if you send out a newsletter through your mailing list, you can have, um, usually the mailing list service will cross-post for you to social media. So if you attach it to a Facebook page and you've set it up to attach to a Twitter account, it will automatically send that out to the list and it'll use whatever image you used as the main graphic in the email. And then content goes up on Twitter without you having to think about it. Um, you know, just turn on your notifications so you know, if you get a mention cause somebody replied to it or something. Um, the other thing is that if you post a blog post, say you're comfortable using your WordPress website to add blog content, you can also cross post that content and have it published to Twitter or Facebook when the post publishes. And then you are adding content to Twitter without ever having to engage in the Twitter sphere of community. Kaelyn (19:30): Now let's say you do really want to engage in the Twitter sphere of community. Maybe you're like in a few writing groups and everyone's like, yeah, you know, there's this ongoing thread, or there's this great group of people you should interact with them. You know, just introduce yourself. How do you, how do you recommend kind of dipping your toe in that water? Rekka (19:47): Well, okay, so say you've already set up your account, we're just going to assume that you're starting with an account that you don't use much, but someone's like invited you over. Well that's great because now you have a friend that you can follow and that friend will follow you back. And if you say like, Hey, I'm new to Twitter, but you know, I realize there are a lot of great people here, so I'm looking for writers and artists or whoever, you know, whatever type of people, readers to follow and follow me back. Then maybe that friend who invited you will retweet that and then their entire list is exposed to that. And then maybe you get a whole bunch of automatic, not automatic as in automated, but like people who see that and are like, yeah, fine, I'll follow you. If so-and-so likes you, I'll follow you. So that's one way to start building your audience. Um, you, when you set up Twitter, it starts asking you questions about yourself and what your interests are and I think it starts suggesting you to other people with similar interests. Kaelyn (20:41): So yeah, if you go to, actually this is a fun statistic about me. Um, if you look at the people that I follow there's a couple hundred of them, a 4% of them are Muppets. I counted. Rekka (20:52): I was going to say, you did the numbers on this. I'm not sure it not a Twitter feed. You know, it's not how many - Kaelyn (20:56): No, I counted 4% of the people I follow on Twitter and Muppets. Rekka (21:01): Okay. So just to be clear, Muppets are good to follow and interact with on Twitter. Kaelyn (21:05): Muppets are great to follow. Rekka (21:06): Sockpuppets or not. Kaelyn (21:08): We don't want sock puppets. Rekka (21:10): Which is to say people who are, um, tweeting on behalf of someone else's agenda. Yes. And we don't want bots, which sadly this is not the future in which we'd be friend the robots. Um, you can usually tell them because they have like a very clearly, sure, I'll take that username sort of username. Um, and you know, then there are real people, real human beings who go on Twitter and behave badly and you're going to want to watch out for them. So everyone who responds to your tweets is not worth giving them a response back. Um, some people are going to very quickly exemplify why the mute and block buttons exist on Twitter. Um, speaking of which, if you are overwhelmed by some of the content that is on Twitter all the time, the mute and block buttons can help you avoid stuff that's either going to upset you or distract you or make you engage in a way that is not what you intended Twitter for. Rekka (22:09): So, um, there are accounts that you can follow that will have links that you can activate that will tie into your Twitter account and block like a whole mess of people for you. So if there's a group you don't like, say trans exclusive radical feminists, you can find an account that will block anybody who's known to behave in accordance with that sort of person. And then you don't even have to think about it later. I mean you might have to block the occasional person you catch on your own, but it if they block someone, like you'll automatically have blocked them. So like groups like that, it's easy to avoid basically. I mean you might eventually, depending on how you tweet, come under there like the tensions. Kaelyn (22:53): But the thing is, anytime you go out into the world, whether it be on your phone, at your desk or actually step out into the world, there is a chance you are going to run into less than pleasant people. Yeah. Um, which is why I don't do any of those things. Rekka (23:15): And Twitter has a lot of them congregating in one spot looking for trouble. Yeah. I'm using search terms. You'll see a lot of folks, uh, who tweet and then a specific word in their tweet will have asterisks in it, in place of some of the letters, which is specifically so that someone searching for that word can't find them and just come in and start raising a ruckus for the sheer joy of making your life miserable. Kaelyn (23:29): Yeah. And see this is, this is another aspect of social media freaking me out. Part of it is that like, I am not afraid of these people. It's not, you know, that I'm, it's more that I don't want to deal with this and I don't understand people that behave this way. And to be frank, I just, I don't have time for it. That said, one of the big anxieties that I have about Twitter is people taking things I say the wrong way. Um, I know me personally that I'm never going to be tweeting anything that I think would offend someone because one, I just don't talk and act that way. And two I tried to make sure that something I'm putting out into the world, especially as a representative of my publishing company, I want to make sure is well received by everyone. I am always very worried that I'm accidentally going to say something that I don't know is going to offend somebody. I'm going to offend someone. Rekka (24:30): The thing to do, to avoid, honestly not offending somebody is probably just to avoid re-tweeting things. Um, you, and this has happened to plenty of celebrities where they have retweeted a message that on the surface sounded pretty good and then they found out that it was very much coated by a political group for and against very specific people. So, um, if you are not fully aware of the context of the subject matter, it might be safer for you to not retweet or do you educate yourself or make sure you read the whole thread and maybe read the comments and see what kind of, I mean it's kind of like there's a phrase which is good, good advice, never read the comments, never read the comments here. But if you are considering re tweeting at, you might want to be aware of how inflammatory it is and in which directions you're going to see people you know, inflamed in both directions on a specifically troublesome tweet. And this is one of those things where you do have to decide and it's, it has a lot to do with how you want to present yourself to the world. Do you want to be an activist and tweet things that have messages that mean a lot to you or um, support causes that you care about? Or do you want to frankly play it safe and maybe not ever retweet anything except you know, a new book launch announcement from a of author friend or from your publishing house of a, you know, a sibling from your publishing house. Kaelyn (25:57): I'm going to jump in here real quick and say that if you don't want to do the first one, you don't have to and don't let anyone make you feel like you do. Rekka (26:06): Right. Kaelyn (26:07): There, you will absolutely run into people that say, well, you support this. Why don't you get more involved in the conversation? And if the answer is I don't want to or I don't have the energy to or mentally, it's not good for me, that is a completely legitimate reason. And you will find a lot of very die hard people on Twitter for a cause that they care about or - Rekka (26:31): They're passionate. Kaelyn (26:31): A passionate and argument that they're passionate about. That's great that they can do that. It is soul draining for some people. Rekka (26:40): And for people who work multiple plus their writing and have families or other responsibilities that may really just tap them out. So if you choose to be an activist on social media, absolutely that's your call, but be understanding of someone else chooses not to be., Kaelyn (26:58): Never feel pressured to participate in something you don't have to. Rekka (27:03): However, one thing that you can do to make more friends on Twitter, especially in the writing industry or the writing sphere, is to support your friends and fellows that you know and love. That's a great thing. Um, so if they're announcing a new book or they announced that they've just signed for a book sale, a, if they announce a, you know, a a book event where they're going to be at a bookstore or something like that, absolutely. Feel free to retweet that. They'll appreciate it and they might retweet your next announcement. Um, and that's just being a good citizen, you know, that's, you know, not doing it so that someday they do it for you, but you know, do it because you're part of the community. And that's what people who are in communities do is lift each other up. Kaelyn (27:45): Yeah, exactly. Just, you know, that when somebody's got something, they're trying to get out into the world, the more people that help them get it out there, the more people will see it. Rekka (27:52): Yeah. Kaelyn (27:52): Um, you know, it's just as you said, being a good being a Twitter citizen. Rekka (28:17): Yeah. Um, something else about being a good Twitter citizen is when you see somebody posting about a health issue, it is not your job to give them medical advice on Twitter. And I see that so often and um, it really, it's upsetting to the person who was letting you know that, you know, they were in a bad place and it doesn't put them in a better place. Chances are they've heard that advice before and they've already weighed and measured it. There's a lot of, I think people putting personal things out there that aren't looking to you to solve it for them, but everyone's got the problem solved in their head and they feel the need to comment and say, you should do this. Kaelyn (28:35): You know, they're looking for a friendly, Hey, hang tough. We love you. Rekka (29:06): You know, you'll get through this. I'm thinking of, let me know if there's anything I can do for you. Sending all our love, stuff like that. Like that's, that's the kind of support that you give on on Twitter. You don't give medical advice, send Twitter, your lawyer would not appreciate that. Um, so yeah, I mean that's one of the spaces where like it's, it's OK to engage but don't try to, I don't want to say manipulate, but don't try to guide that person to do anything as a result. Like they're sharing it with you. Hey, I'm having a rough time because of X, Y and Z medical condition or X, Y and Z financial situation or something like that. Um, but there are times when you really do not want to engage for reasons that would terrify Kaelyn and I'm talking about, um, mostly own voices conversations because if that own voice is not your own voice, that's not a place for you to talk. Now, it might be a great place for you to learn by just following along and being aware of what people are talking about. If it's, especially if it's something that you're interested in, especially if representation matters to you and your stories and you want to represent people who aren't always of your exact personality background, et cetera. Um, but don't engage, you know, there's, there have been conversations recently from specific marginalized groups where other people are stepping in and telling those marginalized people how they should be feeling right now. And that's not good. And that's a great way to get yourself blacklisted from several of these, um, these social circles. Kaelyn (30:17): Yeah. I mean, without going into too many specific examples, um, one thing, and this is, this results in me being underactive on Twitter, but I think it's better that way, is be conscious of who you're talking to and who you're engaging with. Um, you are going to come across groups of people that you would not normally find in groups if you were just at a party because everyone can kind of join together and be in the same place. So knowing that we're not here necessarily to talk to you just because this has happening on a public forum. Rekka (30:50): Just because you can see the post doesn't mean I'm talking like making eye contact with you. Kaelyn (30:54): Exactly. Yeah. Um, and being conscious and being mindful of that I think is very important. Rekka (31:00): And no, you know, whether you, if you're watching a conversation, you're like, Oh, well it's public, so I guess I can engage. I can add my 2 cents. Maybe if you think about it, - Kaelyn (31:09): Like, I mean, yes you can, but should you? Rekka (31:12): Yeah. You're, you're going to find yourself slapped back pretty fast if you try to engage in a conversation that is clearly not about or for you. Kaelyn (31:26): So now let's say you make a faux pas. Let's say youput your foot in your mouth, you stick your nose into a conversation that you really did not have much of a place taking part in. Rekka (31:35): As soon as you realize that - Kaelyn (31:36): Things happen. New Speaker (31:37): Yup. Kaelyn (31:37): Yup. Rekka (31:38): Um, as soon as you realize it, you let it, especially if someone comments to you and says, um, you know, for whatever reason, we don't appreciate you sticking your nose in. I'm sure it won't be phrased quite like that. Um, you can recognize that, you know, you overstepped your bounds by replying and saying, I, you know, apologize, that was none of my business and I didn't understand the full, I mean, if you didn't, but basically I, you recognize it and you admit it, but you don't make the whole conversation about you and how will you been called out and how you feel bad about it. Like just apologize and back the hell away. Kaelyn (32:19): Yeah. Now and that said. Um, if someone comes back at you and is, I'll, I'll even say if they're rude or they're unnecessarily nasty about it, um, sucks. Just deal with it. Rekka (32:31): Yeah. Kaelyn (32:31): Because you know, what, if the - Rekka (32:32): Don't keep engaging with them, the only thing you can do is let it go. And you know, there may be very full throttle and - ramifications of you making one tiny mistake or you know, just being overbearing in a conversation that you didn't belong in any way that may just kind of haunt you for awhile, but just deal with it. You know, if you agree that you were wrong in doing it and maybe even if you don't, especially if it's, you know, other people who are marginalized telling you that you've stuck your foot in it, um, just accept that that's, that's how it went and be more careful next time. Kaelyn (33:07): Yeah. It's um, don't it, it's not about you at that point. Um, the other thing that I will say is that there is, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that happen now that people involved with or circulating around that group be it, you know, sports writing, um, movies, culture, whatever your interest are. People feel the need to comment on it to say, I am appalled by this or I stand up for this thing. You don't have to have a statement on everything that happens from, I've read things on Twitter where people are going, I know it took me a week to acknowledge the controversy surrounding such and such an I just need to state that I am firmly opposed to what that person said. I do not in any way support anything they believe. Rekka (34:04): Like you never provided evidence that you would, no one thought you would need to say that. Kaelyn (34:06): Yeah, no one ever would think that you would. And also it's not like, you know, if it's a celebrity - Rekka (34:11): And in a week, everyone's forgotten. Kaelyn (34:11): It's not like you know this person. It's not like they're a friend of yours that you kind of feel like you are like, Oh God, I hope they don't think that about me too. You don't need to comment on everything. Um, if you're worried about where people might think that you stand on something, then may - you probably need better friends Rekka (34:34): Or you need to be more clear about where you stand. If it's important for people to know that the example I gave earlier of someone of celebrity re-tweeting something that they didn't fully understand the context of. Um, the solution was a couple of hours later or as soon as they were, it was pointed out to them. I don't really, I saw it after the fact so I didn't really see how long it took, but they said, I apologize for my last retweet. I did not realize that that was about that and I should have been more careful about re-tweeting the message on the surface. It seemed like something I agreed with having learned what it really meant. I do not agree with that and done you and I saw that person as it celebrity celebrated for correcting their mistake and moving on. You be careful about it and you moved, they were not defensive. They did not make excuses for themselves. They apologize directly and they were clear about what their actual stance was. Kaelyn (35:24): Now that said, you don't need to, you know, wear a hair shirt and whip yourself in, you know, the middle of the town. That's, Rekka (35:33): But that's, that's exactly it. Punishing yourself publicly is, is making it about you. Kaelyn (35:39): That's exactly what I'm saying. So like if you're not, apologizing and moving on is one thing, publicly flogging yourself is not helpful to anyone. Rekka (35:50): And making a show of your suffering and your repentance is, is making it about you when you hurt someone else. And this should be about you apologizing to them and letting them heal. Not constantly shoving it under their nose. Kaelyn (36:03): Yeah. So, you know, it's, and like I said, I, you know, I just get very freaked out by this. I'm not a big social media user. Um, I also, you know, just in my manners speaking and things like, I'm worried that things that I say could be misconstrued. I'm also worried there are people out there who will look to misconstrue them and here's the thing, there are. Rekka (36:26): And you can't beat them. Kaelyn (36:27): Yeah. Rekka (36:27): They, if they want to apply context to it, that you didn't put it in there and they can convince other people it's there. There's not much you can do about it. You can, if it really starts to blow up, you know, not respond to them, not retweet their thing, just say like look posts to clarification posts to clarification and try to not engage with everybody who, who's coming at you because that one person sent their, you know, their crowd after you. So okay. I, to be fair to the people who were just considering signing up for Twitter and now they've listened to all this and they're like, Whoa. Kaelyn (37:02): They're like, Kaelyn's right, stay the hell away. Rekka (37:05): What is going on Twitter? Um, I just wanted to market some books. So let's get back to like using Twitter as a book marketing plan. Kaelyn (37:13): There are a lot of wonderful, supportive kind people on Twitter and they can help you with your books. Rekka (37:22): However, if your Twitter account is clearly just you reposting or even using a third party like posting tool to just post, buy my books, buy my books, buy my books, then you are going to come off just as much as a used car salesman as you might worry, you will. That's why we say be authentic on Twitter. Just a couple conversational things in between, you know, Hey, I have a book coming out. Don't post three times a day that you have a book coming out. I mean, on the day of, if you are normally a active, an active Twitter user and you normally engage in conversation, chances are you're going to have friends re-tweeting your first book announcement posts throughout the day and you don't need to post it three times. When you post to Twitter, that post goes to the people who follow you. If you promote it at my go to more people, but don't do that. It doesn't, there's no reason. Um, a lot of, uh, independent authors have experimented with Twitter ads and they have found that there's no advantage to spending money to promote your tweets. Kaelyn (38:23): I actually go out of my way to avoid things that. Rekka (38:25): Any time an ad, a promoted tweet comes up on my feet, I block the user. So like that's my behavior as a, as a user of Twitter, not as somebody like trying to, you know, teach them a lesson or anything like that. And just like, I don't want to see that ad loads every time I open Twitter. So your Twitter list, the people who have been kind enough to follow you or follow you back will see your post. Now if they don't check Twitter frequently throughout the day and they also don't scroll all the way back or view their Twitter feed in the right order as opposed to like Twitter's decision on how it, what order it should be displayed in, which is a thing. Rekka (39:03): And you know, you just have to look into that. Um, so someone might miss it if they're on your list. So in your mind you're saying like, well, if I post a three times a day, then I should catch everyone on my list, whether they check in the morning at lunch or in the afternoon. But the fact is, I think people take about five minutes to scroll back through Twitter as far as they feel they need to go. And then we'll check back in at random times during the day. It's not like someone checks before breakfast checks at lunch or checks at dinner. Like Twitter's sort of like a thing that keeps showing up on your screen. Like I didn't even remember opening that. And here I am scrolling through Twitter again. Kaelyn (39:33): Yeah. Rekka (39:33): Those are for regular users who are your audience if you're trying to use Twitter to market your books. So those users are going to see your posts all three times and they're going to start getting irritated about it, especially if that's all your content. Um, I have seen in the past, people recommend using the third party apps I mentioned earlier, like HootSweet there's a couple like that, um, to set up content that rotates through and like you tell it, Oh, post four times a day from this list of posts and then when you get to the end, repeat it back, guess what? You can smell those. It's very obvious and I don't like them. I end up muting or blocking the people who use them because they're not engaging in any other real meaningful way. They're just trained to use it to make it look like they are so that when their book promotion posts come up, you don't feel like they're abusing the system. Do the thing where like your real new stuff comes out. Like from your mailing list or your website blog posts, those can go to Twitter. Kaelyn (40:31): Yup. Rekka (40:32): But if you are going to get in a cycle where you're repeating your content because you feel like that's the way to expose your content, like your, you're not thinking about Twitter, the way people that you're trying to reach on Twitter are using Twitter. Kaelyn (40:43): Yeah. So to kind of, you know, in, in summary, in conclusion, um, I kind of at the beginning of every year sort of make a little resolution myself that I'm going to be better at Twitter. So if you want to try and interact with me on Twitter, I promise I will try to be, Rekka (40:58): See this is like Kaelyn saying I'm going to try to be better at the violin, but Kaelyn doesn't own a violin or take violin lessons. Kaelyn (41:05): Actually that's not true. I do own a violin and I took violin. Rekka (41:07): Well, she has a Twitter account but she's not using it. She's not practicing and she doesn't do her scales. Kaelyn (41:15): Yeah. Um, no, but you know, it is something that I kind of know that I need to be better at this. Um, it's, I don't want to call it an unpleasant reality of my job because I don't think of it that way, but it is more of something I should do rather than something I enjoy doing. And maybe eventually I will just expose myself enough that I get more comfortable doing it. And I think that's what has to happen a lot of times if you're a little nervous. So if you ever - Rekka (41:34): My advice to Kaelyn. Kaelyn (41:48): try to interact with me on Twitter, I promise I will try to interact and it'll be, it'll be therapy for me. Exposure therapy. Rekka (41:57): So my, my advice to Kaelyn and I'll tell it to her here so that you can hear it, is just avoid sarcasm. Kaelyn (42:05): Which I'm not good at. Rekka (42:07): I know, I know that. So that is primary advice, number one, you are writing flat text into a flat machine. Even the best choice of emojis to pair with your words so that people know it's sarcasm. You will still find people who misconstrue words. And since that is what Kaelyn is trying to avoid. Kaelyn (42:24): I've just solved it. I'm only going to tweet an emojis from now on and then everyone can make of them what they want. Rekka (42:26): Um, and be aware of context. So like that the celebrity who happened to retweet something that was actually for um, in supportive group, he did not support and his fan base called them out on it. Like just maybe be more aware of what you're re tweeting and it's, it's troublesome because in this case they did sound like good words on the surface. Kaelyn (42:52): Here's my Twitter advice. Stick with pictures of cute animals. Rekka (42:56): There are lots of accounts out there that you can fill your Twitter feed with such goodness. Kaelyn (43:02): One of my favorite ones I follow is just called In Otter News and you know what it is? It's otters. Rekka (43:08): I think there's an account called hourly wolves, something like that. New Speaker (43:10): Yeah, Fox Fox one. Yeah. So, I mean really most of the people that I follow on Twitter are Muppets and animals. Rekka (43:17): Which is your safety net because if you mute everyone but them, Kaelyn (43:24): Then Twitter is a beautiful place. Rekka (43:25): Twitter is not upsetting. Kaelyn (43:27): So yeah, if you just want to be tweeting things and you're not really, you're like, Oh I don't know. Just like if you've got a pet, just take pictures of your pet and put them online. I love looking at people's pets. Rekka (43:35): Just watch out for if you're posting photos for reflective surfaces and what they show cause you know, that's the whole thing. Um, especially for Instagram since we are talking about all the social media, but I know we focused on Twitter, but Instagram, um, the content you choose is needs to be interesting but also friendly and not look all staged all the time. Um, which is the best advice I can give you the best Instagram account that I was going to send you to for somebody who seems to have a really engaged following and everything like that I realized is Victoria Schwab. And she has a really engaged following, cause she already has a huge following anyway and they're going to follow her wherever she goes. Rekka (44:10): So the, the choice of Instagram account wasn't necessarily, um, you know, better or worse than also being on Twitter. But, um, I do like the photos she posts in so far as like author slice of life content. She doesn't get personal, but they're always semi book related, but not specific to her book launches, although some of them are because got lots of stuff to promote all the time because everything's happening for her right now. So, um, but yeah, be aware of the context. Be aware if, you know, if you are sharing pet photos, if you are sharing, um, you know, little bits of your life, just make sure that you're comfortable with them being out there in the public. I think count to 10 before you post anything critical. Kaelyn (44:53): Yep. Rekka (44:53): Um, watch your jokes. You know, you might think something's funny, but it's actually based on, you know, a long history of, you know, putting other people down. Um, don't punch down, punch up and you know, if any of this makes you uncomfortable and you didn't really want to go on Twitter in the first place, like here's your permission slip. You don't have to. Kaelyn (45:16): Um, you know, I know we talk about social media a lot and being important and by the way, not wanting to go on Twitter is not the same as not wanting to have a website. Rekka (45:22): Right, you should have a website but freaking website, no excuses. You don't need to, it doesn't need to be big or beautiful or have exclusive content. You just need to have a presence where someone can go find you. Kaelyn (45:34): Here is one thing I, this will be my parting thought when in life, but especially online. Remember and understand that you do not owe anyone your time or attention. So if people are tagging you in things, DM-ing, you, um, you know, trying to - Rekka (45:56): The nice thing is you can lock down your DMs and not accept any. Kaelyn (45:58): You can also lock down that people cannot tag you in things if you really don't like, but - Rekka (46:05): Or just turn off your notifications, let them tag you, but not have to have it ping in your ear. Kaelyn (46:11): Yeah. But even if you don't do that, you don't owe anyone your time and attention. So if it's getting stressful for you or if you just don't want to talk to that particular person, you don't even need to reply to them and say, Hey, I don't want to talk to you. So yeah. Rekka (46:27): And so you're going to meet people in your life who will tell you, you must have a Twitter account and we're not going to publish your book unless you have 500,000 Twitter followers. Those two statements are just not realistic and they're not fair. And they're putting a lot of onus on you as an author to go beyond the role of being the one who writes the books and become part of the marketing team. You will be part of the marketing team even if you don't go on Twitter. Kaelyn (46:51): Yeah. So you know, just be happy and be safe out there. It's parts of it can be scary, but for the most part you're going to find, you know, good people that can be helpful and kind and - Rekka (47:05): Yeah, you just be the same. Kaelyn (47:07): Yup. So we'll, we'll leave that there and if you want to interact with us on Twitter - Rekka (47:11): If you're already on Twitter. Once you sign up, make your first friend on Twitter @WMBcast and we will happily be your friend on Twitter. Um, and you know, we're there. Ask us questions, uh, leave us comments there. Uh, do a rating and review on Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes. Um, we've had a couple of new ones lately and we really appreciate it. Everyone's really enjoying the podcast and it makes us feel so good that this is helpful. Hopefully this episode was helpful and not 100% terrifying, although Kaelyn looks like she's going to cry, so we better wrap this up so I can get her a tissue. Kaelyn (47:48): Some more tea. Rekka (47:50): So we are also at WMBcast.com and patreon.com/WMBcast and we will talk to you in two weeks.        

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about cover copy – those words you find somewhere on the cover of the book that tell you a little about it.  Those words are very important because their sole purpose is to convince the person reading them to buy the book.  Cover copy is a tricky, delicate, and often frustrating thing, but one that Kaelyn just happens to love.  So today we’re talking about ins and outs, dos and don’ts of cover copy and how a couple hundred words are one of the most crucial parts to selling a book. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the best story you have about cover copy that resulted in reading a very different book from what you thought you were getting.. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast ***We had a problem with the transcript for this week’s episode. Nobody is directly blaming Chonky Boi, but there were definitely suspicious teeth marks found at the scene. The transcript will be regurgitated and posted shortly.  If you’ve downloaded this episode and want to view the transcript, please delete this version and download the new one to find the transcript in the show notes.  Thank you and we apologize for the inconvenience.    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week is the story of an apocalypse, the end of a world, specifically the one you created.  We’re talking about finishing your series and some of the things that can happen along with way.  What is a “good” ending?  How significant can outside influences be?  What can you do to minimize them?  Do you “owe” something to your readers?  We discuss all that, talk about some of the emotions and feelings you may come up against, and make entirely too many Star Wars comparisons. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and we’re genuinely curious, who saw The Rise of Skywalker and what did you think of it? We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, we make books podcast to show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:09   And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:13   So, um, today we're talking about kind of an inevitable conclusion, which is - Rekka:00:17   Yeah, Kaelyn keeps trying to make this about me, but I keep deflecting it back to Star Wars so I can blame someone else for the perhaps missteps that happen and creating a series from start to finish. Kaelyn:00:29   We're talking about finishing your series. Um, you know, we'll just flat out, we both just watched The Rise of Skywalker we were talking about it. Rekka:00:36   Otherwise we definitely would've been talking about game of Thrones in this [inaudible]. Kaelyn:00:41   Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Actually - Rekka:00:43   That's very true. Kaelyn:00:46   Don't get me started on that anyway. But yeah, we're talking about, you know, we did another book about, or we. Rekka:00:53   I did another book. Kaelyn:00:54   She did another book. We did a previous episode about, um, your second book in your series. And it, it's so weird because it never occurred to us to do something about finishing your series until we - Rekka:01:07   Well, we were talking about having an editor on your side and that episode. Kaelyn:01:11   Yes, that's true. Rekka:01:12   And so it was a little different and quite focused on the content of the series itself this time, without naming too many specifics, we do get into the talk about your series as a satisfying arc for, and we focus a lot on whether it's a satisfying arc for your reader, but I think we, we bring it back to the key points at the end. So definitely listen all the way through. Um, it doesn't have nearly as much star was ranting as I expected it to. Kaelyn:01:37   No we really - Rekka:01:38   There's a lot ofexasperated noises, but we to be expected, very afraid that we were going to go off on some tangent. We're going to have to trim like 35 minutes out for Patreon and luckily we're both a little tired. Kaelyn:01:48   So, um, anyway, yeah, just, you know, kind of talking about, uh, things you might encounter outside influences, um, interacting with fans and how they can influence things and what you were obligated to do in this process. Rekka:02:02   Yeah. Um, so anyway, uh, take a listen as always, we hope that you enjoy. Kaelyn:02:06   Here it comes. Speaker 2:       02:12   [inaudible] Kaelyn:02:19   So a chunch of salt tells you what to do? Rekka:02:21   Better than an astrologer. Kaelyn:02:23   Fair. Very true. We're going to start it now. Rekka:02:28   We're just going to start it whenever you want, or we can just stare at each other and think about how nice it is to be friends. Kaelyn:02:32   Yeah, that's true. That's very true. It's um, it's weird because it's clearly night in here and I'm not used to, I don't think I've ever been in here in clearly night. Rekka:02:41   There are a lot of firsts going on right now. This is the first time you've ever recorded a podcast in a scarf. Kaelyn:02:47   Is it? Rekka:02:47   Yeah. Kaelyn:02:48   Okay. Well it's like 10 degrees outside, if that, um, Rekka - Rekka:02:54   You called it refreshing. Kaelyn:02:55   It is refreshing, but you know, that's why - Rekka:02:58   Until it seeps into your bones. Kaelyn:02:58   That's why I have scarf. That's how it stays refreshing and warm enough that, you know, it's, it's uh, you can stand out there, look at the stars. It's, it's very, it's very pleasant. Um, you know, for small increments of time. Um, yeah. Rekka:03:11   Speaking of the opposite of small increments of time. Kaelyn:03:14   Yeah. Um, so we're actually talking about the end of time, a time. Rekka:03:20   I mean, even your apocalyptic scenarios, but that's not what the episodes actually about. Kaelyn:03:24   I mean, really, is this not an apocalyptic scenario? Rekka:03:26   Bats and pigs, I know. Kaelyn:03:28   Watch out for them! Rekka:03:31   Um, yeah. The scenario that brings about our topic today feels very apocalyptic. Kaelyn:03:37   It is to a lot of - Rekka:03:38   I need something plush to hug. Kaelyn:03:39   I mean, in some ways it is actually an apocalypse. It's the end of a world. Oh goodness. Okay. Rekka:03:47   I'm all right. Yeah, I know. Kaelyn:03:50   So it's never ending story where it's just nothing. Rekka:03:53   So what we're talking about today is ending a series, and this is hitting, you guys can't see Rekka's face right now, but like she's, she's having trouble with this because this is hitting particularly close to home for her because Rekka is actually in the process right now of, uh, of ending her series. Kaelyn:04:11   Um, so in a way - Rekka:04:13   I'm ending a trilogy unless sales can pick up and you might want five more. Kaelyn:04:18   In a way it is an apocalypse. Um, I think by definition I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to check that. Um, you know, we're talking about ending a series today and um, we've talked, you know, we did an episode a few weeks ago about your second book in a series, which um, this is different though because things - Rekka:04:41   The second book in a series, you can keep going up your roller coaster incline. Kaelyn:04:44   Yup. Rekka:04:44   The, the end of the series you have to pull some absurd number of loops before you can bring it home and also keep up the pacing of the first portion of the story and also make sure that everybody's a little like question marks have been turned into periods and all this stuff. Like there's a lot going on. Kaelyn:05:07   It's true. So I mean it's not, what we're going to talk about today is kind of, um, you know, this is going to be half and half. This is going to be a little bit informational and motivational. And then this is going to be a little bit emotional because Rekka has got some feelings about it. Rekka:05:19   I refuse to feel anything. Kaelyn:05:21   Okay, fine. No feelings. Um, so hypothetically, if Rekka had feelings about this. Rekka:05:28   They would be big feelings. Kaelyn:05:29   They'd be big feelings and they would probably, all of them be laced with small degrees of unadulterated panic. Rekka:05:36   Well, now that was true before. It's true now. Kaelyn:05:41   No, and I think it's completely normal to when you're getting to the end of something that you have spent, you know, regardless of the span of time over which this was published to the years leading up to it need to be counted for something that has been such a significant part of your life for so long, there's going to be a feeling of loss. And it sounds dramatic to say that, but that's exactly what it is. This thing that was a very significant living part of your life is gone now. Rekka:06:08   And there was some brief discussion when we talked about like, now you're a published author. What does that feel like? Um, this almost, and I don't use this term lightly postpartum of publishing a book. Um, definitely yeah, there is depression, there is sense of confusion of loss and you know, aimlessness and especially because as you're publishing a book, there's the part where you're drafting and then many, many months later there's the part where it comes out. And in between there, your partially moving on from the book, but you're also partially looking ahead and you're also anticipating the release and you're also anticipating, you know, the various scenarios in which you could interact with readers or readers could interact with your book during this time. And then, you know, then it's publishing day and it very rarely goes in any sort of Hollywood style fashion. Um, the best you can hope for apparently is just, you know, someone who's worked with you on the book acknowledges you with a cake, with the cover of your book printed on it in digital ink. Kaelyn:07:20   You know, I gotta I gotta make a quick note over here. Rekka:07:22   Yeah, write that down, cause I have two books out now and I have not gotten a cake. No. But the, um, the feeling is going to be multiplied by the fact that now, boom, this is, you are done with this series. This world is not somewhere you have to revisit ever again. You may, cause people do. Kaelyn:07:44   Yeah, definitely. But um, this might be the end. Rekka:07:49   Yeah. Kaelyn:07:49   So, you know, , like I said, we kind of want to touch on the, you know, the emotional from the author side of things. It is completely normal to feel a sense of loss there. I think. Um, or you know, maybe you're just ready to be done and you're excited about it. Um, I'm sure it runs the spectrum of emotion. Rekka:08:08   There's love and fatigue involved in making a book. Kaelyn:08:12   Yeah. But there's a lot of stress that comes along with finishing a series besides all of the issues of this is over now. I can't believe it there, there -- Rekka:08:25   How did it end? Kaelyn:08:26   There is a lot of stress leading up to it. Now, again, we always use examples of trilogies, but this is true of any - Rekka:08:34   Quadrilogies. Kaelyn:08:34   Any series really. Um, there's pressure to finish it, quote unquote, right. And I think right can be skewed because to me finishing it right means a satisfying ending that covers all of the, that need to be covered. Rekka:08:56   Right. There's no one correct answer. There's no set of words that is the one you must match in order to proceed to the next level. Kaelyn:09:04   Yeah, and the way we kind of started talking about this and decided to come down to this topic was the satisfying ending verse the quote unquote right ending and quickly, you know, qualifying that the right ending is one that the fans want. Now - Rekka:09:21   And they're the ones who are judging whether or not it's right. Kaelyn:09:23   Yes. Now can those two things line up? Absolutely, they can. Rekka:09:27   However, do you want them to, like if we're talking about fan theories of how the series should end, do you not want to surprise them a little bit? Like, dude, don't you like see that as like, all right, well that those are the, the ones I should avoid because they're obvious. Kaelyn:09:40   Well, and this is, this is a big problem with the advent of the internet that a lot of authors have know. George RR Martin has famously had problems with this that now granted if he wrote a little faster, maybe this wouldn't be such a thing, but we'll get into that as well. But fan theories and even fan fiction have actually caused authors a lot of grief and strife with how they're finishing their series because, well, for two reasons. One is that the potential for influence there, the other is that maybe somebody got it right and now there's something out there on the internet for all the world to see that you cannot convince everyone completely that you got it first. Rekka:10:23   Right. So here's some advice that's not on the topic and it's going to come up again later. We're going to do a social media episode, but do not read your fanfiction and try as best you can to avoid your fan theories. It seems like it'd be fun. It seems like you want to support the people who are really into your story, but you actually have some legal issues. Kaelyn:10:48   There was actually, um, a case, and I apologize, we, we paused recording so I can try to look forward and I can't find it. If I find it, I'll link it in the show notes of an author who did go and read some of the fanfiction came up with one that really liked the ending and contacted the person that wrote it to see about co-opting what they had written and kind of like partnering on it. Like, I can't remember, he was kind of at an impasse of how to, how to finish it or what have you. And there was a lawsuit about this so we could do an entire episode on issues with fanfiction and stuff. Rekka:11:25   Best practice is don't engage with fanfiction of your work. Kaelyn:11:28   Yeah. Because I'm, all of these things are influencing you and from the editorial side, the best ending to your story is the way you intended to end your story. What if you didn't know? And look, here's the thing. That's very possible, but that's, you know, that's, that's - Rekka:11:48   As an example, you know, since we're using me as an example of this hypothetical situation in which I have feels about, um, when I wrote flotsam and plan to self-publish as we've covered before in this show, I did not plan on this being a trilogy. I was going to write these characters for as long as I had readers who were interested in reading about them or until I lost interest. And so when I signed with Parvus, they did not want to buy an indefinite number of books in a series that may or may not ever get finished for some reason. Um, so what they bought was a trilogy. And that means that whether or not Parvus wants to buy more books in this world, there has to be a satisfying conclusion at the end of three books. Kaelyn:12:35   So getting to that, you know, some people know exactly how their book's going to end. Some people have to figure it out along the way, but these external influences can get very dangerous very quickly because I can - Rekka:12:50   And you are like, let's be clear, you are constantly being influenced externally. Kaelyn:12:54   Absolutely. Rekka:12:55   However, most of those influences are not specific to your characters and your plots. You might read, read a book, watch a movie, and whether consciously or subconsciously figure out how you're going to solve your plot because these ideas melded in and you know, percolated inside your head. But you hopefully are not taking direct items from a thing and saying, I am applying these, you know, the sequence of events to my story. You are being influenced in a subconscious way, but I don't think it's possible but possible to be influenced in a subconscious way when the thing influencing you is a parody, a homage - Kaelyn:13:38   You don't exist, you don't exist in a vacuum. Now, I mean hopeful, you know, I really hope everyone listening to this who's interested in writing a book, it becomes successful enough that one day they have to worry about fan theories and speculation and that kind of stuff. Um, and it's very easy in the age of the internet where there is such a thing as instantaneous feedback to start taking that into consideration when you shouldn't. You are not writing - let me qualify. All, I'm going to qualify what I'm about to say. You are not writing a book specifically to please your fans. Now it should appeal to them. And we've talked about this. You know, with your second book. Rekka:14:24   Yeah. Your existing fans are the perfect market to sell your third book to. Kaelyn:14:27   If in the trilogy we talked about this in a, in the second book episode, if all of a sudden your book flies off the rails and goes a completely different direction in their dinosaur is where there were no dinosaurs previously, nor indication that there ever could be they then that's an issue. Rekka:14:44   Yeah. I mean, you are upsetting your fans for good reason. Kaelyn:14:46   For good reason - Rekka:14:48   But your fans being upset because you didn't do the thing that they imagined doing - Kaelyn:14:51   Yes. Rekka:14:51   Is not a reason to worry about whether they're upset. Kaelyn:14:54   You are not obligated to finish the book the way you think your fans want it finished. It's, even though it's not their satisfying ending, it's a satisfying end ending. Or it can be or can be. It hopefully is. Um, so what does that look like? Well, it looks like resolving the questions, the actions, addressing the big themes and the goals of the characters. It looks like having some form of a resolution to what you started out to try to do now that may have one that may have changed along the way, but presumably everything has kind of grown out of the place that it started. Um, hopefully characters have developed and grown and changed and maybe the things that they do in the last book they would not have done in the first one. It's called character development. And it's fantastic. Rekka:15:47   It is fantastic though it is not 100% necessary. Kaelyn:15:51   Yeah. Rekka:15:51   According to some genre. It doesn't, it doesn't need to be. Kaelyn:15:54   Um, but there's also like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna throw it out there. The shipping community, they are like there. Um, don't get me wrong. There are a lot of fun. There's some truly great stuff on Twitter that I can oh Zutara, but that's, you know, that's a big, that's a big thing that also comes up a lot is not even just how the story ends, but who ends up together because we have to constantly be fixated on romantic relationships. Rekka:16:24   You don't have to actually, as it turns out - Kaelyn:16:26   As it turns out we don't. But we are. Rekka:16:27   Yeah. Um, well I think what happens is people find the tension between two characters who have chemistry and for them who prefer to ship. That becomes a fun thing to imagine, you know, and to be fair to the people out there who enjoy a good ship, they don't all expect that the ship is going to be honored. Kaelyn:16:52   Yes. Rekka:16:53   There are some times where it really, no, that's really that, that subtext is there. Kaelyn:16:59   If you publish a book, at some point you are going to see somebody online talking about it, whether it be a review or what have you. Um, if you have a big enough fan base that is really into this, especially if you've written something with a lot of mystery and ambiguity that leaves room for speculation, you're going to see people discussing it. It is unproductive to pretend that that won't get in your head a little bit. Rekka:17:28   Yeah. And it's unfortunately unrealistic to think that readers won't tag you into it. Kaelyn:17:35   Yes. Rekka:17:35   Because they will, unfortunately - Kaelyn:17:36   And they're, they're doing you a favor. Rekka:17:38   You know, they're like trying to engage with you. They're trying to express that this is a thing that has piqued their curiosity and they am and they are very interested in the results at the end. Your story road, however - Kaelyn:17:51   So that said, how obligated are writers to their fans? This is a whole debate about are writers even obligated to finish now controversially I'd say yeah, kind of. Rekka:18:07   I mean contractually - Kaelyn:18:08   Contractually is one thing. Rekka:18:09   Yes. Um, if you know, if Parvus had bought two books with a potential for a third and I didn't want to write the third, what would happen there? Kaelyn:18:25   If you didn't want to - Rekka:18:26   If you contracted for two books - Kaelyn:18:27   And you didn't want to write the third? But Parvus wanted a third? Rekka:18:30   And Parvus wanted the third. Kaelyn:18:32   Then it's to the negotiation table. And the thing is that unfortunately you're not obligated to write that. Third, we can do everything we can to get you to try to. Rekka:18:40   Entice. Kaelyn:18:41   Yes. But - Rekka:18:42   That advance just keeps growing. Kaelyn:18:45   But you don't have to. Rekka:18:46   Yeah, I don't have to. If I say no, I feel satisfied with this ending and if I open up another can of worms, then I'm not going to be, and my heart isn't going to be in it. My opinion of - Kaelyn:18:56   In this scenario is the story finished? Rekka:18:58   Well that's the question. Kaelyn:18:59   Yeah. Rekka:18:59   So Parvus is saying no or Parvus is saying, we think that you can take this little story, you know, I'm, I'm putting words in your mouth. Obviously we think you can take this little back story storyline and turn it into a thing that creates a three store. And maybe this is a problem with some other commercial properties going on right now. But, um, - Kaelyn:19:17   No, no one in particular. Rekka:19:18   Certainly no nothing. So, um, Parvus wants a third book because they think they can bank on it. Um, I feel like books one and two are a pair and they were, you know, a set and that was all that needs to happen. And so to me, I have done what I can to finish it up. Kaelyn:19:39   Yes. But I will counter this by saying that in your scenario, two books have finished a story. Rekka:19:45   Right, that's what I'm saying. So saying, yeah, and I'm saying saying we want to craft the center of trilogy. Kaelyn:19:50   Yeah, but I'm saying is there an obligation to finish an unfinished story as opposed to adding more to a finished story? Rekka:19:58   Okay. So let's say in your scenario is a moral obligation as - Kaelyn:20:03   Well that's a good question. So what are you obligated to your fans? No, I'm not talking. I wasn't even going intending to go in the direction of are you obligated to finish? Because look, here's the thing, at the end of the day, you're not obligated to anything. Your craft is your craft. It's your art. You choose to put it out into the world for people to consume. Rekka:20:24   That said, I think certain actions will put you in breach of contract. Kaelyn:20:29   Certain actions will put you in a breach of contract. And then there's also, I think a sense of duty in there somewhere that you know, people have invested their time and energy into something in this, by the way, then is also where you get the people that say who add fuel to the, I don't buy books until the series is finished fire. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to that are casual to avid readers that say, yeah, like the trilogy, you know, they never finished it and I'm just burned. And like I hate when that happens because and, I sympathize with that because as Rekka knows I'm a story consumer, I need to know how this ends. I need to know what happens. Um, it will keep me up at night. Rekka:21:10   Absolutely. I have, there's a story and I'm trying to remember the name of the author. I know the book is literally somewhere here behind me, but since I don't remember the name of the author and I alphabetized by author on my, on my shelves recently, I don't even know where it is cause I moved it. Um, but I read this book when I was 14 and I loaned it to a friend and then the second one came out shortly thereafter or we found it because we, you know, it was new on the shelf for the second book and we were 100% into this book. It was Epic fantasy. There were so many characters. Everything was nuanced. Everyone's backstory was in there. Everyone had scars and wounds. That was like just hitting all our little preteen buttons and third book still still listed as forthcoming to this day. But I don't think it's going to happen. And unfortunately it was due to sales. From what I understand, it was not that the author didn't get around to writing it. It was that the publisher decided not to continue with the trilogy. Kaelyn:22:16   Yeah. And you know, unfortunately that can happen. But um, you know, in those cases there's reversion of rights typically. Rekka:22:22   Yes. So the author I think has the option to write it, but it's like, well, if the publisher didn't want to publish it, why should I write it? I still look for this book every now and then. Like when I come across it in my collection, which I can't do right now apparently. Um, I go and I see if anything's been said about it and I just generally find wikis about how people share, wish that book would come out well. So that's an obligation in a sense, you know, like are you obligated to finish? And that's a, that's a whole other discussion. I mean, the answer sometimes it's a sad shame that you are not given the opportunity. Kaelyn:22:55   Yeah. So the obligation is hopefully you have the will and the ability to finish the book. Beyond that, what are your obligations to your audience, to your fans, to my end and Rekka, you know, stop me if you disagree with me. The your obligations are to write a satisfying, cohesive ending. Satisfying does not mean happy. Rekka:23:21   Right. Absolutely not. Kaelyn:23:22   Satisfying to me means that the book ended in a way where you feel the story has been completed. If it's supposed to be completed, if there's more coming, there should still be some form of con, a conclusion. Rekka:23:38   Right. So sort of continuing what we were saying about are you obligated to finish the story? I would have worn anyone who's, you know, is this part of your potential future in your publishing career? If you get a two book contract, make sure there's something satisfying at the end of book two if even if you think that there should be a book three, Kaelyn:24:00   This is why so many, and we've talked about this, so many trilogies, book one is a soft ending. It is. There is sort of like, I want to call it a satisfying conclusion, but there is a conclusion there. Rekka:24:11   Yeah, I'd like to think flotsam has one. I've been accused of not having one, but I think, I think it's interpreted. Kaelyn:24:17   I thought so,yeah. Rekka:24:18   I think so. Kaelyn:24:19   Um, I will use, again, I apologize that we just keep sticking with trilogies, but I think a lot of the trouble people have with crafting the satisfying ending is if you look at trilogies, the second installment is a lot of times the favorite because how they, how they run typically is the first one's the soft ending soft conclusion. Things have kind of been wrapped up. And if that's the end of the story, then so be it. But there's clearly more to build off of there when you're then committed to a trilogy. By the end of the second book, everything is on fire. Rekka:24:55   It has to be. Kaelyn:24:56   It has to be. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a mess. Okay. Hans frozen in Carbonite, Rekka:25:03   Gandalf is dead. Kaelyn:25:06   No, he's not. Rekka:25:08   Is he? I can't Remember, I can't sit through those movies. Kaelyn:25:13   Um, the, you know, at the end of the second - Rekka:25:16   Everyone's given up hope. The worst thing that could happen seems to have happened even though it's not really the worst that's going to happen. You know, you are left feeling like, Oh my God, you can't stop there. Kaelyn:25:27   And this is also because this is when we see the characters at their lowest. Rekka:25:32   Right. Kaelyn:25:32   We see them in absolute desperation. And then when you're writing the final thing, you've got to dig them out of it now. The characters are incredibly compelling when faced with adversity and having to just keep surviving when they have to start problem solving and working their way out of it. That can be where it gets really tricky to keep the characters the same and compelling at the same time. Rekka:25:57   Right. And also, um, it occurs to me that we are, since we're using trilogies as our, our, um, example throughout the episode, a trilogy is three acts very frequently in Western storytelling. Our stories are in four acts. Kaelyn:26:16   Yes. Rekka:26:17   Which can make figuring out where you're going to stop book two and start book three in a trilogy. Very difficult and a little fiddly. Kaelyn:26:27   Well, if you're Rekka you go with a zombie apocalypse. Rekka:26:29   Look, not everybody's read salvage yet, thank you. Kaelyn:26:34   Figuring out you're right. Figuring out where, okay. I have gotten them through the point now where they need to regroup and come back and that's going to happen in book three. Rekka:26:44   But they also, the pressure is usually on that they don't have the time to step back and regroup. Yes. They have to lick their wounds while they're running into the battlefield. Kaelyn:26:54   Yeah. So this is why this can be so stressful because you've got all of this stuff typically leading into the conclusion of your story, be it a trilogy or otherwise. You have to now go back through and look at all of this stuff and decide, okay, here are the things that I absolutely must answer and this is where I will start saying your obligations come in. Rekka:27:17   Yeah. If you ask the major question, you better give it a proportionately sized answer. Kaelyn:27:24   This is Chekhov's whatever you want, if there was something in there that you dangled in front of readers, you're going to piss off readers if you'd just forget about it. Rekka:27:33   And here's where listening to fans gets a little tricky. Kaelyn:27:38   It gets dicey definitely. Rekka:27:39   Because what if that wasn't supposed to be a big deal, but the fans just latched onto it for no reason and then that's just how it is. Kaelyn:27:47   That's how the story went. But themes and questions and big lingering issues that need to be dealt with, leaving things on answered because you don't know how to deal with them. Rekka:28:01   Like never seeing Han again after he's frozen in Carbonite. Kaelyn:28:05   You know, that's kind of what Harrison Ford wanted - Rekka:28:09   Right, but they would have done something to set him back Kaelyn:28:10   They would something exactly. Rekka:28:13   Um, but if Han gets carted away in that Carbonite after he and Leah semi confessed their love to each other, that would not have been a satisfying conclusion. If we never saw Han. Kaelyn:28:25   If you never see Han again - Rekka:28:26   Either dead or aliveou need to answer something about, that situatio, it was not a conclusion in of itself. Kaelyn:28:36   This is where - Rekka:28:37   Tying up those loose ends and - Kaelyn:28:38   This is where problems, like usually I have so many examples of these off the top of my head. Rekka:28:44   This is where the dissatisfaction comes from is something that if you have made whether intentionally or not feel significant and you treat it at in the end. Like if it wasn't significant. Yeah. Kaelyn:28:55   And if it wasn't significant, that's one thing. But having like a character that you know goes off to find the MacGuffin and then we never hear from them again. Rekka:29:06   Right. Kaelyn:29:07   That's a problem. Rekka:29:08   Yeah. Like having a prophesied one come in and sent off on a quest and then that's the last we see of them. I know we keep talking about star Wars and bringing this in there and there's reasons for this and it's both because we both have watched. Kaelyn:29:20   I wasn't even thinking about Star Wars. Rekka:29:21   We both just went, well, I'm going to bring it up again because we were talking, we both just watched the rise of Skywalker and we were talking about this last night and we're fortunate enough that this episode is going to come out after the embargo on spoilers so we can get into it a little bit. We're not going to spoil it for some people. Kaelyn:29:36   I'm not even, I wasn't even gonna talk about that. I'm talking about, we were talking about the a prequel trilogy and my question was always with Anikin, okay, there's this whole prophecy of he's going to bring balance to the force. Rekka:29:47   How was that done? Kaelyn:29:48   What does that look like? What is a - Rekka:29:50   Apparently it looks like two people kissing and then reviving each other until they get bored and one decides that, you know what I'm done. Kaelyn:30:00   You know what? I'm good. Yeah, no, but like, and that was something that really bothered me about that prequel trilogy and even as Anikin and you know, the third a prequel is on fire and Obi wan standing over him. You were supposed to bring, you were supposed to balance the Force, not destroy it. Rekka:30:16   You are the chosen one. Kaelyn:30:17   You were, you know. Rekka:30:18   Yeah. Kaelyn:30:19   What does that look like? You never have explained what was supposed to happen here that didn't. Rekka:30:25   This is a can of worms because it's a prequel trilogy to which the original trilogy is now the second act. Kaelyn:30:37   It's a, yeah. Rekka:30:38   And now you need another trilogy to be the third part of the tree. What is going on? Kaelyn:30:45   There's a lot here. Rekka:30:48   I believe in my heart of hearts that fans would have just been excited to go back to the world where there are Jedi and Sith and you could just set it a few years ahead of that story and never even touched Anikin. Never touch the Skywalker saga. And it would have been a heck of a lot more satisfying than trying to Checkov rifles that came later. Kaelyn:31:09   Yeah. Rekka:31:09   But the rifles that came later were already satisfyingly concluded. So now you're creating new open endings and saying, Oh, you thought this, but here's a new question about that. Maybe what you knew was wrong. So maybe we'll answer that. Eventually accepted. It'll be a different set of directors and storytellers and a different company that owns the IP. And maybe you - Kaelyn:31:32   Look, this is a mess. Rekka:31:33   I'm just going to stop there. Do you know where this is going? Kaelyn:31:35   It's a mess. So now all of that said - Rekka:31:39   And that's a lot. Kaelyn:31:39   Yeah. I'm going to flip to the other side of, you know, like if we want to get a little good place on this, what do we owe each other? What do writers owe their fans? Rekka:31:48   Which is, okay, I have trouble with the phrase, owe, the verb to owe implies that the contract is between the author and the reader. Kaelyn:32:00   Okay. So - Rekka:32:01   By telling a story, you are in effect in this scenario proffering a contract to the reader and by continuing to read your story, your reader is accepting the contract. But if that is true, two parties signing a contract have read extensively the terms of the contract and they're both on the same - Kaelyn:32:23   Everyone read your contracts. Rekka:32:27   Or just read my books. Kaelyn:32:28   You never look, I am never going to pass up an opportunity to stress read your contracts. Rekka:32:33   Yes. So is there a contract between a reader and an author? No, because there is no legal document that says satisfy me or, and also what is the orals and the reader is not satisfied by the story and does not want to read that author again. Fine. That's how liking and not liking stories. Kaelyn:32:55   I was looking at. Oh, more in what are we, what are we obligated to each other for? What is the universe implying in terms of ethics and morality that we are required to give to each other who participate in each of our lives. So - Rekka:33:13   This hurts. This is physically painting me. Kaelyn:33:16   Um, but the direction I was going with is that - Rekka:33:19   Why don't you answer your own question because I don't know where you were going with that. Kaelyn:33:22   Is don't go out of your way to screw over your readership. Rekka:33:26   I will know that they're okay. So it's not an Oh, but it's a like have some respect for the people who have been along this ride with. Kaelyn:33:32   I will use is there's a very famous example of JK Rowling who, yeah, I know. Um, but I'll use this example because it is a good one for this scenario that where she became overwhelmed by fan response and you know, either remember the first three Harry Potter books were kind of already out before people started really taking - Rekka:33:54   Before Oprah noticed. Kaelyn:33:55   Yeah. Before there was like the excessive fan attention that it eventually got. But she, I think it was between the fourth and fifth book, took a very long time to write them because of this sudden overwhelming. Rekka:34:12   And it was between the fourth and fifth book that they suddenly started to get very, very long, very long. Kaelyn:34:17   And she has said in interviews that she was so overwhelmed, so annoyed, so by everyone with their theories and their fanfiction and all of this stuff that she was going to kill Ron out of sheer spite. Because she was - Rekka:34:30   That's not what you owe your reader. Kaelyn:34:31   Exactly. And this is, that's - Rekka:34:33   And if you can't handle it, you need to figure out how to stay away from these theories. Kaelyn:34:36   And here's the thing, she didn't eventually, because she took a step back and realize this is, you know, this is not - Rekka:34:41   As clearly we know at this point that she did not kill Ron. Kaelyn:34:43   Yes. Rekka:34:43   Spoilers, everyone, spoilers everyone. He does not die during the wizards chess life-size game at the end of the first book. Kaelyn:34:51   Um, but that's what that drove her to. And she, she says, I was in a very dark place. I was very frustrated. I was having a really hard time with this and I was going to kill Ron out of spite almost to show them, don't mess with me. Rekka:35:07   And this was before Twitter, really. Kaelyn:35:10   Yeah. Could you imagine? Rekka:35:11   Can you imagine reaching J K Rowling levels of attention on your currently in progress project. Kaelyn:35:24   In the MySpace era. Rekka:35:26   Okay, well I'm saying in the Twitter era, like can you imagine that? Kaelyn:35:29   Oh yeah, no, but I'm saying the MySpace era, um, think of getting to that point when Twitter didn't exist. That's so you can understand the stress. And everything that she must have been under in that case. And I can understand this need to latch out, lash out. Um, but that, that's just an example is writing things just to piss people off is not a good way to respect your readers. Rekka:35:56   And also writing to try and like, and this is again goes back to the don't read the stuff to try and evade the fan theories will make your story poorer because you were considering the wrong things when you're making your decisions. When I'll use myself as an example, I don't know if I'm going to do a good job, it's not done yet. But in planning out Castoff, third book in my Peridot shift trilogy, I went and I took the outlines of the two books that already existed and I went through them and I said, what, what have you, what have I opened that hasn't been resolved yet? And not only that, but in what order did I open these things? What is the first question that readers get you didn't know and what questions follow those two sort of, you know, in, in terms of like coding. Um, Mary Robinette Kowal talks about this all the time, close your tags in the order that you open them. Um, so inside to outside, you know, if you, if you freeze Han and Carbonite at the end of the second movie, the end of the third movie should not be getting Han out of the Carbonite because that is the wrong, that is the wrong culmination of your storytelling. Kaelyn:37:13   Well, and there's also levels of immediacy. So if it had been random rebel soldier frozen in carbonate, okay, maybe at the end of the movie you go get him. Yeah. Um, Han gets frozen in Carbonite for Luke and Leia, their number one priority here is going to be, we got to get Han back. Um, now is that fair to the random rebel soldier? No, but maybe he's got friends that will go rescue him instead. Rekka:37:42   So, um, soldier, you know, I assume he's a leftenant, a Rondo that he gets frozen in Carbonite and the conclusion of the trilogy is they undo the Empire's grip on everybody else. Then getting him out of the Carbonite is undoing that grip. So like that's part of that. That conclusion, but when you make it a main character, it goes deeper than that. So like what you're saying is the level of involvement that the audience has in that character. Kaelyn:38:10   Yeah. Now there is, there is something kind of glaring that we're overlooking here, which is sad endings to things and - Rekka what are you? Just get ready for castoff everyone. Rekka:38:29   I'm not saying it because of that. Um, I'm, I'm taking a deep inhale because like it makes me want to blurt out my favorite phrase when it comes to picking your endings, which is surprising yet inevitable. Kaelyn:38:43   Yes, you should inevitably be surprised. Rekka:38:47   But in other words, and this, and this encapsulates everything that I was starting to say, is that when you, when I looked in and I found the things that were open-ended and big enough to address, I needed to make sure that however I resolved those individual items or bigger things that resolve multiple items, you know, you think about them in terms of like the size of your storage containers. Like if you can take a big storage container that resolves three smaller storage containers that resolves all three of those. Don't do three oversized containers for two, three small containers. That's confusing, but you know what I'm saying? Like make the conclusion match what it's resolving. Kaelyn:39:30   I will use the phrase that, I don't remember who said this to me, but like I'm going to get it tattooed on me at some point is that the universe will always be a varying ratio of shocking and inevitable. There's surprise and an it should be surprising and inevitable and people should be able to go back and see how you got there. Rekka:39:54   Exactly. That's what I was starting to say is that the inevitable part is you set this up as far back as it needs to be to be believable. Kaelyn:40:04   Yes. Rekka:40:04   So this is why we talk about putting Checkov's rifle on the mantle and stay in act one. You don't put it on the mantle five minutes before you use it in the end of act three. Kaelyn:40:17   Yup. Rekka:40:18   Because that is not satisfying because it is not inevitable. If that rifle solves all the problems that you spent two books setting up your third book is not going to feel satisfying because you know, this is what they call a day of Deus Machina which is machine of God, meaning something, o outlandishly out of the, you know, gets dropped in from the top of the stage. This is going back to the place where - Kaelyn:40:44   Greek plays, they used to be resolved by a God showed up. Rekka:40:47   A God showed up and settled all the disputes for everybody because the only he had the power to do and the God and the machine was when records said dropped in. Kaelyn:40:54   That's exactly because it was a machine that lowered the actor playing the God onto the stage on a rope and a harness. So it wasn't, machines may be a stretch there, but like it was literally a God showed up, altered reality. Rekka:41:08   There were probably pullies, it's a simplified machine. Kaelyn:41:09   Yeah. So the um, the idea being, if that doesn't sound like a satisfying conclusion to your book, be careful about not doing that. Rekka:41:17   And the inevitable part is when you look back after you, after you have been surprised by this ending, you look back and realize, no, that makes sense. Kaelyn:41:27   That's the way it should've gone. Rekka:41:29   But you want it not to be the ending they see coming as best possible. Kaelyn:41:34   Yeah. Um, Rekka:41:35   I mean, you know that the light side is going to prevail against the dark side because that is does, that's the story. Kaelyn:41:43   That's the story. Rekka:41:44   If it wasn't set up that way, if the story was a philosophical will, the light side and the which will win, then you find out and maybe it's the dark side and that could still be the inevitable ending if you set it up that way. But that was not the way the story was set up. This story was set up of watch this kid learn, he's got this power and go defeat the dark side. Kaelyn:42:07   Yes. Rekka:42:09   Sometimes in the star Wars trilogies, that's the, that's the plot. Kaelyn:42:13   Yes. Um, who are a little fixated on star Wars still. Rekka:42:18   But we said we were going to mention it but um, it's, it's why this question is on our minds because - Kaelyn:42:28   It's hard to write a satisfying ending to such a grand thing. And grand is really the only word I can come up with to describe something that is so ingrained in our society. Rekka:42:41   I mean it's beyond just like a phenomenon. It is a culture. So we had, so a lot of people have emotional ties to it that are beyond what come from the emotional story getting. Kaelyn:42:52   So finishing it, anyway. Finishing your trilogy is, it's a hard thing to do and some people will already know how it ends and hopefully if that's the case, your any changes you make are going to be coming from you rather than what you're reading. Rekka:43:07   But also there is the possibility that when you started this you saw it going a different way and then as you worked with the publisher there were changes made that opened opportunity to end it in different ways. So it's okay if you don't lock down your ending at the, you know, before your publisher has sent you revision notes. I mean like we're not saying that, but we're saying is that there is a direct yet perhaps, um, a femoral line that leads from the first page of the first book to the last page of the last book. Kaelyn:43:47   Yeah. It feels like it's one story. You should at the end, your reader should feel like they have read a complete story and I would say that's what you're obligated to write. So that didn't notice, we didn't tell you how to do it. We didn't tell you how to do it. But that is, that is kind of what you owe to your books. Rekka:44:13   Yeah. And I like it phrased that way better because you know, for some people they are just trying to write the story and their concern is not publishing it ever. There might be beautifully written, beautifully conceived and structured trilogies or Quadrilologies out there that will never see printing because it was just for the writer to get the story out. And that is honestly a great mindset to approach your story from do right by the story first. And the readers who are not trying to take, and I'm hesitant to use this phrase, take ownership of the story and the characters, um, they should be satisfied if the story is served then. So as your reader. Kaelyn:45:05   Yeah, I completely agree. I think that that's, you know, that's kind of what you should be shooting for in the end there. And it does not have to be a happy ending. Rekka:45:15   Nope. Kaelyn:45:15   It has to be satisfying yet it has to answer questions satisfying and surprising. Exactly. So, um, which by the way, I think Rise of Skywalker, Rekka:45:28   I did have it, Kaelyn:45:28   I don't know how surprising it was. Um, I kind of knew where we were going to end up. I didn't know how we were going to get there. Rekka:45:36   And maybe that's the surprise. Kaelyn:45:38   Yeah. New Speaker:  45:38   The point is the journey I guess. I guess. So on that, on that rotation olds trait sayings. Yes. On that note. Um, so, you know, I guess you can let us know what you thought about star Wars, but you probably already have told the world on Twitter if you're, if you're likely to voice it. New Speaker:  45:55   So, but you know what, we, I would be interested to hear, were you satisfied with the ending and to further that question, part B is, were you satisfied with it as a whole of the nine movie Epic versus the more recent three movie trilogy? You know, taking the neutral G as the third in the star Wars guy. Speaker 1:       46:19   I curse the Skywalker saga. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a mess. No one's happy about it. All right, so let's, let's go inside. Okay. And, um, forget everything we just talked about for a little while so that I can sleep tonight. Well, so thanks everyone for listening. I'm, you know, hopefully this was interesting. At least I am dead serious by the way. I really would be very curious, ping us and tell us re satisfied with that ending because that's kind of what spawned this episode was definitely was talking about that. All right, so that's that WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram. You can find the back episodes of the podcast@wmbcastdotcomandwewouldloveifyoucanaffordtosupportusatpatrion.com forward slash WMB cast and we will talk to you in two weeks. See, in two weeks, everyone.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re going to other side of book distribution and that is taking a closer look at traditional book distributors.  Who are these people and what sorcery do they perform to teleport your book into the hands of readers everywhere?  Well, right off the bat, they are working their magic: It’s just distributors, there are also printers, and whole sellers, and warehouses.  We’re going to go through all the people involved in traditional print distribution and what part they have in getting your book out into the world. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and seriously people, who saw Cats?  Come on, tell us, which part horrified you the most? We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between and sometimes a little bit after. And this is our final episode of 2019. Kaelyn:00:10   Oh my God, it is. I didn't even know - Rekka:00:12   Our innagural year is to come to a close. We managed to get in 25 episodes. Kaelyn:00:16   I was going to say, because 26 would have been if we were doing every week and we started in may. Rekka:00:21   Every other week. But yeah, we started in may, but what we had were batches. Kaelyn had a September idea, so if you haven't, if you're just joining us now for the first time, we have lots of episodes including an entire month from September of weekly episodes and then some Submissions September. Kaelyn:00:40   God, we ended up with like nine episodes in September I think. Rekka:00:44   I think it wasn't nine, but it was a lot. Kaelyn:00:49   Maybe it was seven. I don't see, this is the thing, I've blocked it from my memory. I don't even remember now. Rekka:00:53   Yeah. Um, so this, this episode we're doing the beyond the publishing. Kaelyn:00:59   The, yeah, the beyond the publishing. Rekka:01:00   Well it's still part of the publishing or the publishing process. But as far as the publisher themselves, yes, they lose a little bit of control right here. Kaelyn:01:09   Yeah. And this is, this is also, you know, when we were talking about the other side of distribution today we're talking about getting your book out into the world, using a distributor. And you know, we're going to talk about some terms and some differences in various groups of people that you've encountered along the way. Um, I will say upfront, this was a difficult episode for me to do and this is one where I'm doing a lot of the talking. Rekka:01:33   This is my fault because the last episode, episode 24 was the self-publisher or indie, very small, um, operations side of this where it was almost all digital pod meaning print on demand, which is basically digital until they turn around and shoot out a copy to the reader. So, um, and very specific and very specific and step-by-step. And there were some, you know, concrete things we could tell you. And so I then after or before we recorded that, I turned to Kaelyn and said, and you can go next time and her eyes. Kaelyn:02:04   Oh God. Because here's the thing I I deal with are with Parvus Press' distributor, Baker and Taylor publishing services. It's not fun for me though. Not, not because of the people. The people are great. Just - Rekka:02:19   Especially the authors. Kaelyn:02:20   Yeah. Just managing this kind of stuff is very confusing. And this is like you and to talk about, you know, the behind the curtain stuff. I think a lot of people out there have no idea what's going on in the background here because sometimes I feel like I barely have an idea of what's going on in the background here. Um, so, you know, I tried to keep it very broad because as specific as last week is, this is one that is just all over the place. There can be any number of combinations of people and practices. Yeah. If you say something specific, it's going to be wrong in, in enough circumstances that it's not percentage that it's, yeah. Rekka:02:54   It's bad info. Kaelyn:02:55   So, yeah. Um, you know, I, I hope everything didn't come out as confusing as I feel like it sounded it did. Yeah. So it's a little bit of a shorter episode, but it's just because it's so broad. Rekka:03:09   But we just want you to get back to your new year holiday and that was the last day of the year. Kaelyn:03:13   Why are you listening to us go, you know, do something - Rekka:03:15   Well, no, listen to us. And go do something. Kaelyn:03:17   Listen, listen to us while you're doing something you have to do before the year ends, right? Rekka:03:21   Yeah. So, so, um, on that note, uh, thanks again for tuning in and enjoy the episode and we'll talk to you next year. Kaelyn:03:27   Next year. Rekka:03:41   You weren't working in a, um, a, mine while you were in Montreal? Kaelyn:03:45   No, a corporate mine does, does that count? Rekka:03:49   Can you get black lung from corporate mind? Kaelyn:03:51   No. You get black heart from corporate minds. Rekka:03:53   Your heart shrank three sizes. Kaelyn:03:55   Yes. Yes. It's, it's microscopic at this point. It's very difficult to find even with the best of telescopes. Rekka:04:03   Or microscopes. Kaelyn:04:04   Or microscopes. What I was going more with like the black dwarf star. No, but you're right. Microscope was more appropriate than we like looking into space biology versus astronomy. So, um, so, Hey everyone, uh, this is, um, today we're talking about the second part of distribution. And by that we mean, um, using actual distributors for your books. Rekka:04:27   Not the self publishing print on demand, do it yourself bootstrapped version. Kaelyn:04:33   Yes. Um, so you know, Rekka got to say all of, uh, go through all her stuff last week and this week it's my turn. This is, it's going to be a little bit of a shorter episode because it's not going to be as technical. Rekka:04:49   There won't be instructions cause someone else will do this for you with any luck. Kaelyn:04:53   Exactly. Yeah. So when you think to yourself, Hey, what's the advantage of going with a distributor? All of that stuff we talked about two weeks ago, you don't have to do that yourself. Um, which was a lot. That was, that was our longest single topic episode. Rekka:05:10   Yeah. Kaelyn:05:10   Um, we've had some that were a little longer, but they were interviews and compilation question episodes. Yeah. So, um, but it was good. It was very informative. Rekka:05:21   Yeah. I was really happy with how it came out. I think, like I said in that episode, it was the only time that, to my knowledge that the okay, start here and then do this and then do this sort of thing was covered in one place. Um, obviously we didn't get into all the other self publishing, you know, favorite topics like Amazon ads or anything like that. I don't know if we will ever cover those on our own. I think we need to bring in somebody else and here's the problem. It'll change. Kaelyn:05:50   Yes. Rekka:05:50   In a couple months. Kaelyn:05:51   It's, you know, you brought up a very good point in that episode, which was as soon as someone has a class on and puts that information out there, it's basically useless. Rekka:06:00   Yeah. The time it takes to publish that information is the time it takes for those, you know, various channels to change the way that things work at all. Exactly. Um, but as you pointed out before we started recording, what you're about to talk about hasn't changed very much at all in a long, long time. Kaelyn:06:20   Yeah. It was funny. You know, like those, those thoughts you have when you're falling asleep. I had just finished editing the, uh, previous episode. Rekka:06:29   Episode 24. Kaelyn:06:30   Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to say in a snit, but like I was feeling very like, this is ridiculous how, you know, authors and publishers are treated with, you know, this kind of stuff. And like, I hope this helped. And then I was thinking to myself like, you know, there's a reason that we can kind of talk about all of this in, I know it was a long episode, but it was a relevantively short span of time. And that's because this hasn't changed much. Um, yes, there's, you know, the digital components and there's computers and, um, I was talking to Rekka about this before we started recording that. Anything that you really needed to be like a skilled expert in. And by that I mean like it was almost like a trade, is kind of gone. Um, you know, there's graphic designers who have of course taken up that mantle, which, you know, that's, that's kind of almost the only remnant left of physical book production. Rekka:07:29   Physical letter setting - Kaelyn:07:31   A physical, like graphic designers have taken so many aspects of that on in there. Rekka:07:37   There, there are definitely things that I do on the daily as a graphic designer in inside and outside publishing. That was never covered even 11 or 12 years ago when I was graduating as a graphic designer from an art school. This stuff was never anywhere in the curriculum. Kaelyn:07:56   Yeah. So, um, I don't know. It's just, it's interesting. You know how this has been - Rekka:08:00   And a little frustrating. Kaelyn:08:01   Yeah. So, um, but along those lines we're talking about the other side of getting your books printed and out into the world, which is distribution. Um, so real quick some definitions and terminology here because I want to establish something. When we think of a distributor, we think of an entire process. That's actually two parts. We think. We think distributor, we think, you know, you give this book to this person and they go through the whole process of uh, printing it, warehousing it, marketing it, getting it to resellers, third party resellers, which are like Barnes and noble and bookstores. There's actually two different groups, I will call them in there. There's a whole sellers and there's distributors. Basically the major differences, wholesalers, process orders and ship books. Distributors are marketing books. They're talking them up, they're doing research and focus groups and trying to figure out where this book fits in and who's the best people to get it in front of. Rekka:09:07   They're out meeting librarians at trade. Kaelyn:09:09   Exactly. Rekka:09:09   Yes. So you'll notice I left something out there, which is the printing, the production of the book. Um, that can vary wildly. Um, and it really depends how you want to do it. And we'll get into that a little bit. So you're an author, you've signed with a publishing house that is distributed. Um, there are dozens of distributors in the country. Um, Oh, and just to qualify, I'm talking about primarily U S practices here. Um, internationally I think you'll find in Western and English speaking countries. It's kind of the same with, you know, some nuances. But we are, we are talking again as per usual, primarily U S because international, you know, that can vary a lot and really muddy the waters. So we're, we're going to stick with U S um, so you've written a book, you've signed with a publishing house that is distributed. Um, so you're probably wondering like, okay, I finished the book, I sent it to them. They said, cool, that's done everything sent off. So what's happening to it now? Kaelyn:10:12   And let's just say that is exactly how it goes. Rekka:10:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:14   I sent it to them. They said, cool. It's done. Rekka:10:17   Yeah, I know. Well, obviously, Kaelyn:10:19   We covered this process in other - Kaelyn:10:19   You know, you go back and listen to every other episode leading up to the, it's cool, it's done part of this. Rekka:10:27   So where's my book? Why can't I hold it yet? Kaelyn:10:31   Well, your books sitting in a digital file somewhere at a, uh, at a print shop and when I say a print shop that makes it sound much more adorable and um, homespun than it actually is. This is sitting in a giant manufacturing and production environment and giant bespoke. Yes. So we're actually going to start with the printers because obviously before anyone can do their jobs here, they need to have the book, right? Rekka:10:58   And we're talking about not your word document, we're talking about the layout files and - Kaelyn:11:02   We're talking about the entire completed file that can be put into a computer and then printed to make a book. So a distributor gets your book, what are they gonna do with it now? Well, the first thing is they've got to get it printed. And these next steps get a little complicated and wonky because all of this is depending on internal setup. Um, I'm going to use, so Ingram and Baker and Taylor publishing services are the two kind of big guys here. Now there's does, like I said, there's dozens and dozens of other distributors. Um, there's actually a whole Wikipedia article on us book distributors, which I mean they have, they have everything on it. Everything. Um, the distributor needs to get the book printed. Now I'm not going to go too much into the means by which this happens because some places have them in house that you can use their print services and maybe they'll give you a discount on them. Um, you can, if you want, get your books printed in China and then sent to whoever needs to have them in order to get them distributed. Kaelyn:12:18   Uh, it all depends on contracts and you know, everything's, everything's negotiable as they say. Um, but the whole point is that the distributor needs to get the books. The whole seller is going to warehouse the books. So now what's happening is you've got 5,000 copies of your books sitting in a warehouse somewhere. The whole seller has a list of all of those. And this is not some pretty magazine with lots of, you know, pictures of the covers and it's a spreadsheet with ISBNs. Um, it's, it's a spreadsheet with numbers, titles, relevant pricing information, maybe some information about genre. That's it. And third party sellers, the bookstores are just looking down this list. And it's, I mean, it's an order form. You can go online and find pictures of these there. Um, any mean these are like, I can't even call them ... catalogs almost doesn't seem right because catalog implies - Rekka:13:22   It's a product list. Kaelyn:13:23   Yeah. A catalog implies some organization and ease to navigate. It's a product list is exactly what it is. So third party sellers go through this and they just say, I want this many of this, this many of this. The order goes to the whole seller. They go to the warehouse, they load up that number of books, and then those get shipped out to the wholesaler. So then how does the bookseller know what they want? That's where the distributor comes in. The distributor has a marketing team whose job is to sell books to, you know, whatever their specialty is, be it, you know, uh, third party sellers like bookstores or to libraries, to schools. Um, any, anyone that's interested in buying books. Um, by the way, for anyone who says libraries are dying, libraries are still one of the single biggest purchasers of books. And they're great because they don't return books. Rekka:14:22   Right. Kaelyn:14:24   Um, and we'll get into returns later. Rekka:14:26   And how that, how, just to clarify, you said anybody who wants to buy books, we're still talking business to business level. Kaelyn:14:31   Yes. We're still talking business to business level. Um, you can't go to Baker and Taylor publishing services and say, I would like one Salvage please. They're going to go, cool. You should go online and get that. Please buy it from us, but do it online. You're never going, you know, you as an individual consumer of books are never going to get one of these massive product lists of books, you know, check a box, send it back to them and have a book show up. Rekka:14:59   This is, you know, this is business to business. Kaelyn:15:02   Right. Um, so the distributors have a whole team of people and like we're saying before recording, I always felt like distributor was a little bit of a misleading name because it makes it sound like they're the ones handing out the books. What they're actually doing is trying to get other people to buy the books of the wholeseller can hand them out. Rekka:15:23   Right. Kaelyn:15:24   Um, they have sales reps who are specialized and focused in particular areas. They go to book fairs to market meetings, they go to, you know, sales conferences and they have the book out there and they go, yeah, this is a really great book. It's going to be, you know, hot on the market. Uh, it's this genre it's really going to appeal to this demographic. This author has, you know, a really great track record with this kind of group of people. You should buy a thousand of them cause they're trying to get the stores to buy the book to keep it in stock. Rekka:16:05   So the question that comes to my mind at this point is if a distributor has accounts with multiple publishers and those publishers themselves are deciding which of their books they want to push, more or less. Yeah. How does, how does the distributor like, where's the, the um, you know, like the one that's actually in their hand that they're handing out at these things versus the 25 in their catalog? Just random numbers. But - Kaelyn:16:34   Distributors are just handed things by publishers. Rekka:16:39   When a publisher signs with a distributor, it's all the publisher's books. Kaelyn:16:41   They don't have as acquisitions and new releases come up, they distributors don't have the option to go, Hmm, yeah. You know what, we're not too sure about this one. They're not involved in the process. That's the publishers. So, you know, I don't know how awkward a situation that ever. Um, I'm sure I'm sure things like that have happened. So anyway, they will have people who just specialize in, I mean really like granular specific kinds of books and they go to all these conferences and um, you know, there's, these are seasonal. There's, you know, of course the spring versus the fall catalogs. Um, there's all of this stuff they know about timing things with how they hit the market. Um, like for instance, I was talking to, so a part of his press is distributed through Baker and Taylor publishing services. And I was talking to someone there and I was kind of trying to figure out a release date and she was telling me like, well, don't do it, don't do December. Kaelyn:17:40   And I said, why not? She said, well, because everything then is focused on Christmas and it's not a bad thing necessarily to have your distributed in December with a Christmas focus. But we at Parvus we're independent. Maybe we're not big enough to really make sure we're not drown out by everyone else. You will notice there are a lot of book releases in December and they try to capitalize on this. And then January and February is just dealing with all of the leftovers. And I don't mean leftover releases, I mean the returns, the, you know, what have you, after the December releases, I don't mean, you know, we're just dealing with whatever comes next. Um, it's also started in the new year. So there is like their strategy and some of these things apply more to certain genres than others. You know, they know like what kind of books are really going to do well for summer reading. So they'll say, Hey, this would be a good thing to release in may and June because it's going to be everyone's beach book for the year. Rekka:18:44   Most people have heard a little bit in one way or another about how Hollywood just decides what time of year they're going to release their movies. Kaelyn:18:51   This is pretty similar. Yeah, and to be clear, the distributor does not get to decide these things, but they can advise. They're certainly very helpful to talk with. So you know, the distributor, like for all of this work that the marketing team with the distributors are doing and like I, I shouldn't even call it a marketing team because really they're, they're in sales. That's, you know, that's their job. Um, they have a marketing team, they have research that they work with, but distributors themselves are not really going to be doing a super lot to market this book. Rekka:19:28   So just to touch on real quick, you know, as you're going, so like, okay, so great. So what's the publisher doing and all of this? Kaelyn:19:34   They are also marketing the book. They're the ones when you see like ads for books. Like I live in New York and like, believe it or not, I do see ads on the subway sometimes for books or on taxi. I've even seen him on taxis and buses. I was really surprised. But you know what I've seen recently and um, I'm sorry, but we need to take a minute and talk about this. Some incredibly disturbing Lifesize 3d ads on the size of buses and taxis for the movie Cats. Rekka:20:01   No, we're not going to talk about that. No, I'm sorry. No - Kaelyn:20:04   I'll put a picture up of the bus, you needs to know. Rekka:20:09   No, don't, don't expose her. Kaelyn:20:11   No. You need to see what they did to one of those double Decker tourist buses. I'm going to put a picture of it on the Instagram. Like I, I'm sorry everyone, but like this is, this is happening. So, um, I just, I'm sorry, but like I saw that on, I needed to get, I was actually sitting in a Barnes and noble when I saw it. Rekka:20:29   Just to bring it back around. Kaelyn:20:32   Just to bring it back around. Rekka:20:32   So [laughs] So for a person who walks into Barnes and noble, dropping that topic, like a hot potato. Kaelyn:20:39   Rekka's really having trouble with this everyone. You should see her face. Rekka:20:43   So you're in Barnes and noble - Kaelyn:20:46   They edited out all of the bulges and boobs. Rekka:20:49   So - Kaelyn:20:52   I don't know. I haven't seen the movie. I saw the play once when I was a kid and I was even very confused by - Rekka:20:57   It's a musical. Kaelyn:20:58   Sorry, yes the musical. Rekka:21:00   I've seen it several times. There's a thing called the dance belt. You don't have to edit out anything, hopefully. Um, so - Kaelyn:21:08   They edited out everything. Rekka:21:11   I know it's terrifying. This is why I want to move on and I feel like it's just nothing what I ever wanted to see again. Kaelyn:21:22   I feel like, you know, it's our responsibility to acknowledge that something like this happened and check and make sure everyone's okay. Rekka:21:28   Okay. So all right. @WMB cast on Twitter did you see it. Kaelyn:21:34   Did you see cats? Rekka:21:35   Did you want to, were you taken against your will? Are you okay? Do you need a hug? Kaelyn:21:40   How are you feeling? Just in general? Does life still have meaning to you? Rekka:21:43   Alright. So publisher's going to market directly to the consumer of the books - Kaelyn:21:47   So yeah the publisher, the publisher is the one responsible for the real marketing, the direct marketing campaign. Um, now this is, it's all kind of cyclical because the publisher is trying to get people excited about the book to get the bookstore excited about to get the bookstores excited about the book so that the distributors can go sell these to the bookstore because the distributors are trying to get the bookstores excited about the book. Rekka:22:12   Right. And so neither happens without the other part. Kaelyn:22:15   Exactly. Yeah. It's all like, I hate to say this, but like it's all hype. That's the biggest strategy in book marketing right now is getting people excited about books, which we are, we love books. We're always excited about them. Rekka:22:32   But the word hype is very scary for an author who's feeling like the brain weasels about how like they're an imposter and they're going to be found out as soon as all these orders come through and people read the book, you know, it turns out it wasn't worth all that hype, but you can't sell it without the hype. So we do the hype. Kaelyn:22:48   Yep. It's, um, it's such a finicky industry and is the next logical step here is then, okay, so what's happening with all the books sitting in the warehouse? How does the distributor come into this? The answer to that is that could be multiple different things. Um, because again, all of this depends how your distributor works. Now if for instance, it's Baker and Taylor publishing services, they've got their own warehouse and their own wholesaler. That's a subsidiary of them. And just as a quick aside, some of you might be going, Baker and Taylor did and I hear that they closed their wholesaling. Rekka:23:28   Yeah there was a poorly handled press release. Kaelyn:23:31   Yeah. So you'll hear me every time we say this, Baker and Taylor publishing services, which is different than Baker and Taylor. So Baker and Taylor in may of 2019, I believe the press release was actually May 1st, 2019 put out what was not a great press with, um, because I got several panicked text going, Oh my God, is Baker and Taylor shutting down? You guys just signed with them. Yeah. Baker and Taylor stepped away from the wholesale book business to focus on libraries and education reselling. Baker and Taylor publishing services still exists and is still a wholesale seller of books. Um, so if you're, for some reason ever bringing that up, you have to make that distinction because I get in trouble sometimes - Rekka:24:30   And I've had bookstore owners argue with me. Yeah. Then they say no, Baker and Taylor is gone. Yeah, Taylor is gone from your catalog. But there is this other company. Kaelyn:24:43   Well Rebecca and I were talking about this at the time that like this was, it was not a good press release because they did not make it clear that there was still that Baker and Taylor publishing services still existed and was still doing this because, and we can get into a whole thing about the name publishing services, but even, you know, making that sound even worse. Kaelyn:25:03   But anyway, so Baker Taylor publishing services has their own warehouse in stock of these books that they want, you know that they're going to have in one place and people are going to buy and they're going to send out to them. Um, I'm using Baker and Taylor publishing services as an example, but um, you know, this can vary wildly. So Barnes and noble comes to them and says, I want a thousand of this book. It sounds awesome. I think it's really going to sell a lot. The warehouse is the one that's going to process the order and get that to Barnes and noble. Now in this case, all of the sale related things are going through Baker and Taylor publishing services because they've just got everything together. So that's kind of the rundown of what the distributor is doing and how this is getting in front of you. Now the next question is how does anyone get paid on this kind of thing? Rekka:26:03   Sounds expensive. Kaelyn:26:04   Yeah, now, we've talked a little bit about this in the money episode of you know, how all of this trickles down. But how is the other side making money on this? And again, I'm going to speak in very broad terms because there are so many components and moving pieces to this. There's a lot, like everything is different here. So the Publisher's got to get the books printed. Rekka:26:30   So you need to start with a product and the product has a parts and labor cost. Kaelyn:26:35   Yes. So in this case that is printing and producing the book, because what's going to happen, the distributor is going to say, we have orders for this many already and we think that it's going to be this many more. The, we're going to speak here in round hypothetical magic numbers because this is not actually how much this costs. Um, so let's say this is a publisher that uses an overseas press. You know, they, they get the books printed themselves and then get them warehoused. They've got the, they bought the books for three bucks a book and let's say they have a thousand of them. So, so it's $3,000 depending on what's going on here. The wholesaler is going to buy the books from the publisher. Wholesalers themselves are very passive entities in all of this. Their only job is to get the order, send out the order. They don't care about the marketing, they don't care about, you know, how much this is selling. They've just got a giant building full of pallets of books. So they're going to buy now at this point we're talking cover prices. So they're going to buy this at a pretty steep discount off the cover price. Rekka:27:59   Which the publisher has determined based on knowing that there will be all these discounts coming. Kaelyn:28:03   Yes, yes. So then when the reseller, the bookstores buy the book, they're also getting a discount off the cover price. So what's happening here is everything is a little bit of a step up. So let's say the books for $3 each, the warehouse, the whole seller is buying them for $5 each, and maybe Barnes and noble is buying them for $7 each and they're going to sell them for $15.99. Rekka:28:31   Right. Kaelyn:28:32   And they're keeping whatever they sell from that book. Rekka:28:34   Nothing - the bookstore does not pay any money except for their initial order. Kaelyn:28:40   But then they're going to have something else factored in, which is the ability to return the books. There are, there's a lot of math that goes into this and I hate it. It's complicated and ambiguous sometimes, which is not two words you usually hear together. Um, Barnes and noble for instance, can say, look, this book was not selling well. I still have 500 of them. They're taking up room on my shelves. I don't want them. Here you go. And wholesalers and distributors are kind of at the mercy of this because really at the end of the day here, you want to talk about the power structure. You want to talk about, you know, in the publishing world, it's not the agents, it's not the publishers, it's not the acquisitions editors. It's not even the distributors, the real people with the power to do whatever the hell they want. Here are the bookstores. And I don't think we think that because we think like, Oh, bookstores. Yeah. But they're the ones at the end of the day who are the cutthroat that can say, I don't want this anymore. Take it back. Rekka:29:47   And they can do this at any point. Kaelyn:29:49   Yes. Rekka:29:49   If they forget to unpack the books and they realize, shit, I've had this sitting back here the whole time. These were new releases two months ago, but they're not new releases now. Or they were two - they were new releases two weeks ago, but there's something bigger that's taken off. I'm just going to, I didn't even open this box. I'm just going to ship it back. Kaelyn:30:05   Yeah. Um, now if you know you had a book that like they had a few stray copies bought here and there like maybe, you know, one book sitting on the shelf isn't as big a deal to them. It could sit there for a very long time if they just decided like, yeah, we're just going to leave that there, it's fine. Rekka:30:24   So, or if they happen to notice the sequel's coming out soon. Kaelyn:30:27   Yeah. Yeah. So the returns, they just get to say, here, take this back. So what does that do to your money? Well, that I won't say you give it back. A lot of times it's more, it's a deduction against future earnings. Um, which you know, like this is, this is any, anything that you're producing a product for, you're going to run into this. Rekka:30:51   So the publishers account with the distributor, just based on what you said to clarify is almost like a, a line of credit, but not like a credit card. Like if you have $20,000 limit on your credit card, they're not gonna eventually pay the $20,000. But you know, yeah. Kaelyn:31:08   So like, well actually that's, that's a good way in to say, how does the publisher get money from all of this? Because the publisher is getting the money a percent. The distributor is taking off a percentage based on what went out to the retailers. They're selling the books for the publisher. And by selling the books for the publisher, I mean, they're the ones trying to get people to buy these books. So, you know, in theory what should be happening is every month, every quarter, however this goes, you just have, you know, your accounting statements going through saying like, Hey, you did a $5,000 in new sales, there was, you had $1,000 in returns, so this month you're getting four grand. So returns can be a scary thing. Rekka:31:54   Um, with, uh, wholesale books and this is why a print runs for, you know, a new release are going to vary based on the estimates you were mentioning earlier where they, they already have this many orders. They're going to print this many because it looks promising. Kaelyn:32:09   Exactly. Yeah. That's how many they think they'll sell because everybody wants to avoid the returns at some point. Rekka:32:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:32:16   Sh, kind of round out the conversation with this, with that this was more definitional and process in this episode. All of these components that we talked about here, the printing, the whole sale, the distribution, they're all interchangeable. They can all be coming from different sources thinking and look, and this is the case a lot of the time that if you're going to go through Baker and Taylor publishing services, then you go through Baker and Taylor publishing services and you don't really think about too much of it. It just kind of is handled. That's not always the case. And frequently it's not. Um, so this was just kind of more meant to be informational. Um, you know, not, not the process because there is no standard process with this. There is the print to wholesaler to distributor to bookstores to into the hands of readers. If that's, that's the best flow I can give you. How far you have to go in between those points is varies wildly. Rekka:33:25   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:26   Um, so that was the distribution - Rekka:33:30   Right. As much as we can really cover in one episode. It's funny, we had to trim out so many side conversations because we knew that that side conversation is going to take us in a direction that's gonna make this a four hour episode. Kaelyn:33:42   Yeah. And here's the thing. If all of this sounds complicated, I'll just, I'll say it, we, there are big chunks of this we're taking out where I had to stop and go, I have to restart that whole thing all over because I'm going off in a direction that's confusing. Rekka:33:56   This is, it is a confusing process and this is, I think one of those, you know when we talk about like the thick curtain that publishers and process hide behind, I think this is one of the stranger aspects of it and sometimes that that curtain is not so much there because they're trying to hide it from you. But because it's something like this where you can't just easily explain it. Kaelyn:34:17   And honestly, if - Rekka:34:18   Maybe a publisher is trying to protect their author from worrying about stuff like don't worry, like I don't, I, this is not, I'm happy to be on this phone call with you, my lovely author. However we could talk about something that's actually going to like, you know - Kaelyn:34:29   Yeah for authors, this is not your job to worry about this is this is the publisher. And then even with the distributor, they're taking things away from the publisher and telling them, don't worry about that. We've got that. Rekka:34:39   Yeah. So they're out of it's job security. Kaelyn:34:42   Yeah there is some degree of specialization here where it's like, look, this is our thing to worry about. You worry about that other thing. Rekka:34:49   Right. And that's a good thing because you want that somebody is not going to try and micromanage the parts that they aren't professional about. Kaelyn:34:59   Yeah. So, um, like I said, this is now one thing - Rekka:35:07   Not that they're not professional. I just mean it's not there. It's not their job. Kaelyn:35:11   It's not their job. It's not their specialty. Rekka:35:13   Um, if they get involved is going to make it worse. Not better. Yeah. Kaelyn:35:16   This by the way, I'm going to end on this note is one area that if you are very interested in learning more about this, this is something you can go online and actually find out a lot of information on because this is one of those areas with sort of definitive, uh - Rekka:35:31   The steps and processes and the only thing you're missing is the, the part with the contract where all the prices are agreed. Kaelyn:35:37   Yeah. And also like this is, this is something that is, is delineated. The wholesaler does this, the distributor does this, the publisher does this, this isn't one of those. Well and then sometimes, and you know, not always, and I know I just got finished saying like sometimes and not always. Rekka:35:58   Yeah. Kaelyn:35:59   I know I just got finished saying that like the process is not, but the linear way in which this happens, publisher to printer printed a wholesaler, wholesaler, distributor, distributor to bookstore, bookstore to reader, that doesn't change. Um, if you're interested in finding out more between the difference between distributors and wholesalers, you absolutely, this is something you can go online and find information about. I warn you, it's a rabbit hole because what you're then going to find is all of the weird, interesting, different ways that distributors and wholesalers are connected and how they're all under our umbrella parent companies and the incestuousness of the publishing industry and - Rekka:36:42   Lannisters of publishing, um, - Kaelyn:36:44   Baker and Taylor publishing services is owned by Follete. So, you know, it all comes full circle somehow. So anyway, um, that's, you know, that's where we're going to leave you here. Um, I hope that wasn't too confusing - Rekka:37:00   And if you do have specific questions or if some of that was too broad, yes. We can try to, to answer them in like a, a listener questions episode. Yeah. But we're like, well, Kaelyn said she had to stop and start because there were so many details that could have really made this a lengthy episode beyond what would be reasonable. So trying not to, trying to get specific on this kind of stuff will make you too specific that it's not helpful. New Speaker:  37:26   Yeah. And no longer applies in a way that's going - New Speaker:  37:28   I mean like she could say this is what Parvus does and that's not going to be what Tor does. New Speaker:  37:34   Exactly. So that's, yeah, it's not a direction we really want to take the conversation. Speaker 1:       37:40   But if you do have specific questions like I don't understand X about the whole sale, then we'll try and answer that for you. New Speaker:  37:49   It's funny because this episode, a strong departure from last weeks that was very specific, this then this, then this. But if you're doing a print on demand and a, you know, digital self publishing and things is there are steps and like there are the, you have to do at least these things to make your book functional. Right. Um, if you wanted to get into warehousing and distributing as a self publisher, a lot of that's how it started. You warehouse in your garage and you distributed by hand out of the trunk of your car. Yup. You know, more power to you if you were good at it. Uh, I, I, I can't even imagine that Amanda's is a magical thing. I mean that's pretty much why self publishing has taken off the way it has. Totally. But for Speaker 2:       38:36   traditional publishing, there's a reason that some authors is a very good reason why some authors just choose not to be involved in that side of any of the process. And I can certainly understand why because as you heard in this episode, it's, it's not shrouded in mystery, but it's fine grain nitty gritty stuff. Yeah. So anyway, um, so we're going to stop before we try and explain it one more time. Why we didn't tell you everything there is, this is like my head hurts after trying to do, and it's not quite like trying to talk to a quantum physicist and get an easy answer, but it's a little bit like trying to talk to the quantum physicist. So, um, anyway, so on that note, uh, thanks for sticking bearing with me through this one because, um, I realized that was a little disjointed. I'll try to, Oh, send us your questions if you have any and we can try and repair the damage done. Speaker 2:       39:30   But hopefully I don't think, I think that was good. I think, you know, we're, we're talking about it before it's been trimmed. That's true. And once it's trimmed, I know you, it's going to be nice and clean and straight forward. So, um, so, you know, but if you have questions you can find us online. Ask the WMB cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can find us@wmbcast.com and you can subscribe to us through most of the podcast aggregators. I'm trying to find a few more of them to get us out there even wider. And um, you know, if you want to leave us a rating or a video, we would love it either Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes. Um, they are the same bank of reviews. So you can go in there and just, just gush a little. We wouldn't mind. Yeah, no, not at all. Um, I read your review in a future episode. Speaker 2:       40:10   Yeah. And Hey, you know, if there's something you want to hear about and you put it in a review, you've called us out, we have to answer it. Um, and then if you are finding this information super helpful and you have some spare change to throw our way, we do have a Patrion, um, page@patrion.com forward slash WMB cast. We have some patrons now and it's fantastic and we love it. And, uh, we really appreciate your support. So thank you for listening and thank you for your support. And we will talk to you in the next episode.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This episode comes to us from listener Ashley Graham – we’re talking about distributing your self-published book and lucky, Rekka just so happens to know a lot about every step of the process.  Self-publishing a book is a lot of work even after you’ve finished writing the thing and figuring out how to get it out in the world can be a daunting and intimidating process. Luckily for writers, there are a lot of great, and often free, resources out there and today we’re not only going to discuss them but also walk you through the process of getting your book in front of readers through the right channels. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and who else is seeing The Rise of Skywalker this week? How excited are you?? We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   We went on for quite a bit in this episode so the transcript was too long to post in the show notes.  You can find it here!

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! In this episode we are talking about a book we hope everyone writes one day: Your second book, the one you are going to work on under contract and with an editor. Writing while working with an editor is very different from when you were off on your own, they have things like opinions and deadlines and they’re going to want to hear what your plans are.  But fear not, this isn’t scary, it’s awesome!  And we’re going to talk about all the reasons it’s great to have someone to work with as well as what to expect from the process. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and let us know if you took part in NaNoWriMo and how it went! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Rekka: 00:00   Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:           00:09   And I'm Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:12   This one is a Kaelyn episode mostly because Kaelyn is getting very excited about some work that she's going to be doing with her authors very soon. Kaelyn:           00:22   Yeah. Rekka: 00:22   And she's smiling so big right now because she's just just tickled and loves her author so much. Kaelyn:           00:28   I do love my authors. They're all wonderful people. Um, but we're talking today about your second book and we don't mean your second standalone book. We mean what's coming in your series. Um, it's a very different process and a circumstance to write your second book under the direction of someone than it is your first one by yourself. And, um, I think this goes for both debut authors and people who are then just selling a new trilogy that have just been working something. Um, we keep um, you know, we mentioned at the end of the episode, uh, we'll qualify it here. We say trilogy a lot in this. Really it's any kind of a series. Rekka: 01:13   Right, right. And when we say under the direction of someone else, you've obviously already revised something under the direction of one or two other people. But we're talking about ground up. You know there is, you are starting from scratch. You are starting from the blank page. Kaelyn:           01:27   And there is somebody whose opinion now you have to take into account. Rekka: 01:31   See you keep saying, I hope it didn't sound too scary. That's why it sounds so scary. Kaelyn:           01:36   Because it's an intimidating thing, but we get into all that in this episode. Rekka: 01:40   Um, yeah. So when she says your contract contractually obligated to take their opinion into account, she's like, yes, that's true. Kaelyn:           01:49   Hey, I'm here for the truth. I'm telling it how it is. Rekka: 01:52   But that's kind of why you got into publishing your book with a traditional publisher. You wanted a team behind your book. And so this is, this episode is all about writing your book after you've already sold, possibly published the first book in a series of indetermined length and doing it with a team of enthusiastic book people behind you. Kaelyn:           02:17   Which is fun and exciting. But definitely very different from the first time you did this. New Speaker: 02:21   So we'll get into that in this episode. So take a listen and here it comes. Speaker 2:       02:40   [inaudible]. Rekka: 02:41   You notice I bought two of them. Kaelyn:           02:43   Oh yeah. I thought this was the same one that was inside. Rekka: 02:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:           02:46   It's um, very uh, warm and soft. Rekka: 02:50   And soft. Kaelyn:           02:51   So soft and fuzzy. Rekka: 02:52   Yes. Kaelyn:           02:53   Cause you won't let me have one of the cats in here to keep me company. Rekka: 02:56   I mean the blanket sheds less than the cats do. Kaelyn:           02:59   Fair. So anyway, we're talking today about books and stuff about books, same as always. But, uh, actually we're talking about a specific book at this point. Rekka: 03:10   Oh. Kaelyn:           03:11   Not a specific book as in a specific title, but it is a specific book that hopefully you're going to write one day, Rekka: 03:20   Hey, you know, maybe you might write a book someday and then maybe somebody wants to buy it and then they're like, Hey, is it a trilogy? And you go, of course it's a trilogy. Kaelyn:           03:26   Of course. Rekka: 03:27   Totally. It's totally, totally, totally a trilogy. Kaelyn:           03:30   And uh, so then you have to write the second book Rekka: 03:33   Now, okay. But backup, cause we actually already discussed outside of the recording that sometimes you've already got the second book written. Kaelyn:           03:41   Sometimes you've already got the second book written. So we should back up to once upon a time a little bit here. Once upon a time there was an author who loved an idea so much that they wanted to keep writing about it. So they wrote a book and they sold that book. And then the person they sold the book to said you got any more of these? And they said, sure, do let me just figure out what's going to happen. Rekka: 04:07   And um, in our, in our conversation, we did say that a lot of times by the time the first book has sold, if it's really intended to be a trilogy or more, the, the author has probably begun work in some form or another on the second book. Kaelyn:           04:23   Yeah. So, um, you know, as we mentioned in the intro today, we're talking about writing your second book and we, this is different from our, what's coming next - Rekka: 04:33   Right, cause what's coming next is the, that episode was about like, you being surprised by the question of what, what happens in a book that's not related to your trilogy. This is going back to the trilogy. Kaelyn:           04:46   This is, there's a difference between what are you working on next and what's coming next. So we already did what are you working on next? But this is about, um, the difference between writing the first book of your trilogy and writing the second. Rekka: 04:58   Yeah. Kaelyn:           05:00   So now as Rekka said, um, there's a chance you may have already written it, you may not have, you may have a rough draft, you may have a pretty detailed outline there, any infinite number of versions that this book could exist in. Um, for our purposes here, we're starting by assuming that you sold a trilogy or maybe you even sold the first book and it's a potential trilogy contingent on sales and sales are good. So now they want the other two books. Rekka: 05:29   Um, actually just to clarify that, if they're going to want the next book, they may have decided this before the book comes out and it's actually enthusiasm or excitement is high when they decide that they want the second book. So you may not actually have anyone who's gotten real eyes on the book other than some, um, advanced review copies. Yeah. Kaelyn:           05:47   Um, and we're also assuming that when you sold the first book, it was already written, um, you gotta you gotta be at a special place in your career - Rekka: 05:57   To sell a book on an outline - Kaelyn:           05:58   To sell the first, Rekka: 05:59   ... for your debut. Kaelyn:           06:00   Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's kind of our baseline where you're starting from and writing the second book is going to be very different than writing the first book because the first book you were functionally kind of doing on, on your own. Um, now of course you're probably involved in some writing groups. You had some beta readers, you had, people you talked to about this. Maybe you even had an editor you hired to, uh, to take a look at it. The thing is that when you're doing the second one, now you have a second party who is contractually obligated to be very interested in reading your book. Rekka: 06:34   Yes. Not just whether it's good or not, but where the entire plot is going. Kaelyn:           06:40   Yes. And you're not going to have an editor that doesn't care about the book period, but now you've got an editor that is very, very interested in this because you've got a story to tell that is not yet written. Rekka: 06:57   And to be fair, if you've been picked up for a partially written trilogy, chances are you've already talked to your editor. Kaelyn:           07:05   There is a very, there is a very good chance. And again, debut authors are not generally at a point in their career where publishing houses and editors are willing to just let them go. Yeah, sure. Let's see how it goes. So they're probably gonna want to talk to you beforehand, find out, um, you know, so I love these characters. I love the setting. I love when this story is going, what's going to happen? Rekka: 07:24   Yeah. Kaelyn:           07:25   Um, with the understanding that that could change as you work through things. Rekka: 07:30   Absolutely. Kaelyn:           07:31   Um, but you will probably have had that conversation. So how is this time going to be different? Rekka: 07:39   One, you're on a deadline. Kaelyn:           07:41   And that's a new and exciting thing and we talked about that in what you're working on next. Rekka: 07:46   What are you working on next. But um, this one is a deadline in your contract, um, specifically. Kaelyn:           07:52   Yeah, this one's like a deadline deadline. Rekka: 07:54   You probably know when you sign your contract, when you need to have this one handed in by. Kaelyn:           07:59   Yeah. Um, so you're going to be working on deadline and you're going to be working with someone who is giving you professional feedback. And I will just say this, that you're required to work with. Um, I don't mean like at most authors I know love their editors and look forward to working with them, but this is somebody that like, you can't just leave an opinion out in the writing group. You have to listen to this person's opinion and they're going to have opinions. Rekka: 08:28   You might be able to debate them a little bit. Kaelyn:           08:30   Definitely debate them. When I say listen to, I mean you have to take it into consideration. You may be able to debate them, you can discuss things, you can come to an understanding. Rekka: 08:37   You can figure out like, okay, I was going this way and you want me to go way over here. What else can we do that we'll both like. Kaelyn:           08:43   You can't ignore this person. Rekka: 08:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:           08:46   Um, and again, I can't really think of any authors off the top of my head who don't like wha - Rekka: 08:55   I'm making faces at her. I do. I do know, because professionally speaking you are, you are on team editor so you probably not going to hear as many stories about authors who don't like their editors. Kaelyn:           09:08   First of all, I'm on Team Author. That's my job as an editor, but - Rekka: 09:12   Well played. No, but you know what I'm saying? Like socially, within the industry, you talk to other editors a lot. Kaelyn:           09:22   That's true. The other thing is that, um, authors, I think because they know I'm an editor, are reticent to say anything about our breed in general/ Rekka: 09:27   Or because you aren't a close friend, they're not going to spill their emotional baggage on you about how their editor's running them through a pepper grinder on this, you know, their second book. Kaelyn:           09:39   It's only because we want to enhance the flavor. Rekka: 09:43   So fun fact pepper makes everything taste good because it opens up your pores and your taste more of it. Anyway, back to what we were saying. Um, your editor wants to open up people's tongues, uh, pores. Uh, yeah. Okay. No, but what I am trying to say is that I do personally know authors who are having a grueling time working on their second book with the editor of their publishing house. Kaelyn:           10:06   Out of curiosity, is it a grueling time because it's a lot, or is it because they don't like their editor? Rekka: 10:12   It's a grueling time because the editor keeps checking their outlines back at them and saying, no, not that do something else. Kaelyn:           10:18   So here you go. Somebody who's going to have opinions. Now, it's interesting what you said outline. Every editor works differently, but a lot of times when you're working on subsequent books in, uh, the tr, you know, a trilogy or a series, what have you, you're going to start with an outline, agree on that and how detailed it is will depend on the editor of the book, the, you know, how intricate the things are that you need to pay attention to. Um, and then you're just going to kind of be sent along on your way, you know. Okay, go write that. Um, you know, like we said at Parvus, I'm a little more involved in the actual day to day writing portions of this, but the whole point is you're going to have to take someone else's opinion into account before you sit down to write what it is you're going to be writing. Rekka: 11:11   I think that is a lot more enticing for many authors than you might imagine. Kaelyn:           11:17   Well, it sounds nice until you're actually doing it. Rekka: 11:20   I'll let this one slide, we'll bring it back later. Kaelyn:           11:24   Okay, look your editor is your partner in this. They're going to want to help you make this the best book it can possibly be. So every relationship, every dynamic is different. But um, you know, maybe you're excited about having another opinion to bounce things off of. I do know some people that just want to be left alone to write their book as they want to write it. And it's a little bit of a rude awakening going like, no, here's this person that you have to talk to about all of this now. Rekka: 11:56   So I break the mold in this sense because I had an entire first draft of my second book before I signed with um, Parvus on book one because as we've covered before, I plan to self publish this. And so what I was planning to do was write all three before I even released the first one so that I could release them close together, get some, you know, dopamine rush from Amazon's algorithm playing into all that. So I, I had gotten a lot further in this then I think is being proposed here as the typical experience. Kaelyn:           12:28   Yeah, and it's interesting because at Parvus we have a few standalone books, some that are turning into trilogies and then some things that we bought at trilogies. So uh Scott Warren's the Union Earth Privateers trilogy, which was the first book we ever got, Vick's Vultures, fantastic book. Definitely check it out. And then he was signed up for trilogy. Now I will say that I did not, I have not really done any work on Scott's books. Um, but he had a plan of where this was going. That was discussed when we said, okay, trilogy. But that was really the only one that we kind of worked on where the author didn't really have much on paper beforehand. Rekka as you just said, uh, you know, had a draft of her second book and knew where the third book was going. Um, you know, things have changed roughly. Rekka: 13:25   Very roughly. Kaelyn:           13:35   But you did know some people like I, I am surprised sometimes when I talk to people and they're like, I don't know, I'll figure it out. And we were joking about this before we started recording because I'm such a planner and a plotter. So like the idea of not knowing how your story ends is like has me like clutching my pearls and gasping and um, but then Christopher Ruz, who's uh Century of Sand Rrilogy, the first book, The Ragged Blade also did an episode and interview episode on this go back. That was episode six, I believe. Um, let me go back and check it out. Really cool about traditionally publishing something that was previously self-published. So that meant that he had books one and two completed already and three like a pretty finished draft. Ruz now in a position, and you were as well, I'm sure where the trickle down changes from the stuff in the first book now have to be addressed in the second book if it's written. Rekka: 14:24   You're referring to the editorial changes that came back from the publisher. Kaelyn:           14:27   Exactly. Rekka: 14:27   Yeah. So I had the advantage of, uh, Colin Coyle kind of gave me some feedback. Uh, Parvus's publisher, uh, kind of gave me some feedback at the beginning of the process that wasn't officially from my editor, but it was something that he brought in and, and those were actually the biggest changes of the, of the process. And, um, he said something that made me realize that he'd misread a scene like the way I intended. It was not the way I came across, which is a good bit of feedback to have. And so by going into fix what he saw, I fixed it for one. Yay. Um, but also I gave myself a little bit of something that has come in extremely, extremely plot devices for the following books and I don't know what book to would have looked like if I hadn't put that in there just to fix a scene so that it was read correctly and now all of a sudden it became a major element. And so that was beneficial to me because it actually tightened things up for me going forward. On the other hand - Kaelyn:           15:39   Yeah, we've been slowly unraveling, um, everything that, uh, that he's been doing. Um, again, I, this is, you know, Episode Six is about traditionally publishing a previously self published book, but there is a lot of talk in it about the changes that we made him go in there and make. And that was just the first book. Um, so the ripple effect out through the second and third is massive. I shouldn't say ripple. We're dealing with small tsunami type things at this point. And he's, don't get me wrong, he's handling it like a champ. But like, it's not that the changes are bad or even difficult, it's that it's a lot to go back and make sure you catch everything. Rekka: 16:26   In the continuity of something that you already know Kaelyn:           16:29   And account for everything. And this is why, um, going into our next point here, I very much like when I'm starting with an author to know where the book is going. You know, I had said like, I am, I am a plotter, I am a planner. Um, I have a rule with the authors I work with. You have to tell me how it ends. Rekka: 16:50   Wheras just for contrast. Um, Ryan Kelly is my editor at Parvus at the moment. And, uh, I asked him if he wanted to see the outline for book three because we had not talked about where it was going. And he's like, yeah, you could send it over. Where's Caitlin would have been like, what? It exists. Why don't I have it? Kaelyn:           17:02   Why don't I have this right now? No, I mean, you wouldn't even send me an outline. I'd be on the phone with you going like, okay, but just tell me what happens. Part of that is because, you know, we buy stories that we love and I am very impatient. Um, I really always just need to know how something ends. Um, so part of it is just a personal, like, I need to know what happens here! Rekka: 17:25   Kaelyn loves spoilers. Kaelyn:           17:26   I don't actually stay far away from spoilers. Rekka: 17:29   Well, as you've said, you didn't want to know how my trilogy ends because you want to experience it as the reader. Kaelyn:           17:35   Exactly. Um, but as an editor, as an editor, I know certain books are going to need things seeded in the beginning of it. So I kind of want to know how everything's going to make sure that it fly off the rails at the end or we're dropping in something that came out of nowhere that readers are going to go, well hang on a second. Rekka: 17:56   So you bring up a really good point because these are the kinds of things that your editor can point out, um, about structure, about. Like you need to Chekov this rifle. You know, like you need to make sure that people feel satisfied by this even if they weren't expecting it, that it's grounded in the reality of your world building or your plot or whatever, or things you've introduced,. Kaelyn:           18:29   A, a twist ending or a big reveal as only as good as you've set it up to be. Rekka: 18:29   Right. Kaelyn:           18:29   Like it needs to feel surprising, yet inevitable readers should be able to go back - Rekka: 18:36   And see all the clues, Kaelyn:           18:37   And find points where they're like, Oh, okay, I got it. Rekka: 18:40   So like for example, the movie Memento. Kaelyn:           18:42   Yes. Rekka: 18:43   That is one where you watch it the second time you're like, damn, this was all in here. Kaelyn:           18:48   If you want to take it even further Fight Club that is, you know, the weirdness of that movie aside despite the groups that have co-opted it's uh =. Rekka: 18:57   Okay. So yeah. Kaelyn:           18:59   It's still a great movie. Um, but the book even too, and you know, obviously they had to do things very different in the book in the movie, but you go back and watch that and you're like, yeah, no, okay, I see it now. Um, so depending on the nature of your book and depending on where it's going, that's something your editor is going to be very interested in. Rekka: 19:18   But not only that, but as I was starting to say, as an author, you really should want someone who's, who's got that second pair of, you know, critical eyes, um, figureative eyes to put it on your story and say like, Oh, that's what you're doing with this. Well here's what I suggest before we put out book too. Cause like book one's already, you know, pretty much signed, sealed and delivered to this man. If you haven't got it seeded book two before it gets published while you're in revisions for that is a great place to seed those elements that are going to make it more satisfying when you bring it in for the landing on number three. So your editor's going to say, Oh, that's where you're going. Well what if we do this? You don't want someone who isn't paying attention to where the story's going because they might guide you into a corner that you can't get to that ending anymore. Kaelyn:           20:05   Yeah, and this is one of those, uh, you know, writers I think a lot of times fall into the problem, which is a totally understandable problem of can't see the forest through the trees. Having an outside perspective where sometimes editors are picking out parts of the book that are more important than the writer realizes they are. Um, you know, I always say like your favorite part of the book might not be the best part of the book. Rekka: 20:35   Your favorite part of the book is probably a turn of phrase or a certain scene and emotional feelings. Kaelyn:           20:40   I am, I thought, I always ask authors, especially like, you know, when they're, the books published or something or you know, okay, we've got the final draft, you're done. What's your favorite part of the book? Every single time I've been surprised. Rekka: 20:53   Really. Kaelyn:           20:53   Um, just because it's a personal thing and there maybe, you know, it might even have something to do with what was going on with you when you were writing it, but the whole point is that you're, you know, a detailed outline that you're providing to an editor is going to allow them to look at this with a bigger perspective of what is happening in this, what is happening in the characters, what the growing themes in the book are and where the setting and the plot is headed. And that is something that a lot of times now trilogies are being bought in such a way that the first book is sold and then the second and third, not always, but you know, they may buy all three at once or they could say second and thirds contingent upon, you know, what's going on with the first. So listeners, I'm sure you'll notice that with a lot of trilogies, and by the way, YA especially does this a lot. The first book kind of wraps up to a point. There are definitely lingering things. There's plots to build off of stories, problems to resolve, but the first book kind of wraps up and then two and three seems to completely take on a new life of its own. Um, again, very, very common in YA. Rekka: 22:11   And that's because you don't know if that's going to be it. Kaelyn:           22:14   Yeah, exactly. Um, so getting an outline with this stuff, um, things could change very much after, after book one, but the outline and the perspective that it's going to give the editor is really important to help the writer get through this process and get to the, I don't want to say satisfying because that implies a happy ending. Rekka: 22:38   There's a difference between like, inevitable conclusion, you know, like not feeling like you spent all your credit in the first book. Kaelyn:           22:49   Exactly. Yeah. Um, one of the examples I always give with this is, um, Cassandra Claire, do you know who she is? Rekka: 22:59   The Mortal Instruments? Kaelyn:           23:00   Yeah. Um, which that must of, that first book must have been published coming up on 20 years ago, which is so strange to think it's that old it is. But she was kind of one of the pioneers of what we now call urban fantasy. Um, like I remember being a teenager and picking up that book as someone gave it to me and was like, you have to read this. And I actually remember looking at this going, this is set in a city that's boring. That's not how this kind of stuff should go. And so anyway, you know, this was saying this to qualify that like this was kind of a new thing they were trying to figure out. But, um, then reading an interview with her that she did, um, explaining that she had to give them an incredibly detailed outline of where all of these books were going. And this is, you know, I don't know if anyone listening has read these, but the last book is full of twists, turns, reveals, shocking identities, you know, and so they wanted to see, okay, where's the groundwork that you're laying for this to get to this ending? Rekka: 24:13   And especially for the publisher, if this book is supposed to put that genre on the map, they need to make sure that this is the standard that people are going to hold it. Kaelyn:           24:21   Yeah, there were, if I'd be very interested to see if anyone kind of like has ever sat down and figured this out. I'm sure someone has. But there were a bunch of urban fantasy things that all came out around that same time. And I would argue that of that initial like group of releases, hers was far too, she's still writing these, um, they just keep giving her contracts to write trilogies in, in this world. And like now she is to the point where she can just go, I don't know, I guess one about this character? Excellent here, have some money. Rekka: 24:52   Um, life goals. Kaelyn:           24:54   Yeah. Yeah. But um, well, I mean she had like a movie, a television series, you know, they were not great. Rekka: 25:02   Well, I have often said that my dream film result for anything I write would be that the film is optioned, the option is renewed and renewed and renewed. It never happened and it's tied up in options and I keep getting paid for it and nobody ever touches it and makes people mad about it. Kaelyn:           25:23   I always joke that like, you know, if I ever wrote a book or like even if they were like going to, you know, some part of this book got a option for a movie and they'd be like, we want to do this. My answer would be cool. Uh, I'm going to go to film school, I'll come back, I'll come back to you in three or four years because I'm in charge of this. I don't trust you. Rekka: 25:45   I've had conversations with Kaelyn, um, outside of recording these podcasts and this is so 100% true. Kaelyn:           25:53   I don't trust you to do this the right way. Rekka: 25:56   And look, the thing is you're not wrong. Kaelyn:           25:58   That's the thing. Rekka: 25:59   Track record is more 90% likely that this series is not going to be handled carefully or correct. Kaelyn:           26:05   Well, I will say, and just a funny little side story, um, Necropolis PD, I gave my cousins and my aunt copies of this book and they were like, I could see this as, you know, this movie. And they're already casting it and listening to them cast it is infuriating me because they're casting all of these young, very handsome, you know, debonair men for the character of Jacob Green. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, go read Necropolis PD it's a fantastic book. Rekka: 26:34   Do go read it. Kaelyn:           26:35   Um, and I'm already fighting with them going, no, it's not. No, that's not what he's supposed to look like. That's not, he's supposed to act. So yes. Um, no one touches these books except us. Anyway, so your editor is going to be far more involved in the structure of the book then they were the first time around when you were working on this by yourself. Rekka: 27:03   Because I promise you this is a very good thing. Kaelyn:           27:03   Yeah, Rekka: 27:07   I really think it is. I mean like yes, you're going to have your outlying cases where like this is not the, the system that works best for you. But I think many authors I can speak for are always wondering if they're doing the right thing for their series. Are they taking it in the right direction? And this is a checks and balance. Kaelyn:           27:24   This person is legally obligated to talk to you about this. Rekka: 27:27   And it matters to me so much that my trilogy stick the landing. Kaelyn:           27:33   Yeah. Rekka: 27:33   Cause I mean my experience with so many books series is, well one you of course have the ones that get canceled before they're finished, which is horrible. Um, but two you have the ones that it feels like the author just kind of ran out of ideas or didn't have a clear plan and they kept setting up fantastic, wonderful world-building and situations and politics but didn't know how to resolve the situation. Kaelyn:           27:55   *cough* Game of Thrones. Rekka: 27:58   Yeah, sorry. Something in our throats. But it matters to me so much and I want somebody else's opinion on this. Kaelyn:           28:08   Yeah and I mean this is generally, you know, we've talked before about like working with an editor. You can go back and listen to our episode Will My Editor Tells Me It's Shit? And um. Rekka: 28:18   You guys love your books and you just want to talk to people about them, but you also want to be sure that you're handling them well. Kaelyn:           28:24   Am I doing it right? Rekka: 28:25   Am I doing this right? Kaelyn:           28:27   Here's the thing. Rekka: 28:28   Yeah. I mean, go ahead. Kaelyn:           28:30   There's no right. Rekka: 28:31   Yup. Kaelyn:           28:31   Because you've got to be the one to decide what's right for your book. Rekka: 28:34   Okay. So this is not me saying, dear editor, how do I finish this? Kaelyn:           28:39   Yes. Rekka: 28:39   This is like, okay, here's what I'm seeing. Kaelyn:           28:41   Yep. Rekka: 28:42   Does this satisfy the arc that's been set up across the series so far? Kaelyn:           28:46   Do you feel like as a reader of this rather than a creator of it, that you think this came to a good, satisfying, logical ending and they're going to point to spots and say, well this feels like it might be a little thin here or this feels like a jump or this doesn't seem in keeping with the character, that's what they're supposed to do. Rekka: 29:05   And you get those things before this. And this is the point of this whole episode. You get these things before you've invested two years in polishing a manuscript. Kaelyn:           29:13   From, you know, the editor side of things. Um, I try to be sensitive and aware of the fact that this person who was working on this before had pretty free reign to do what they wanted with it. Now granted, I probably did take it and make them - Rekka: 29:31   Right. And that's. Kaelyn:           29:31   And make them do some stuff and that's the baby step into, into the end of the pool. Um, but I personally, and I think most editors will do this, you know, is the, the check in, how are you doing? How are you feeling about this? Anything bothering you? Is there parts that you want us to work on or pay attention to more? Are there any parts that you don't feel great? Are there parts that you really feel great about? And then those are the ones I make them go change. Rekka: 29:59   Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. It's like every conversation when you get revisions back from your editor, you're like, yeah, I knew that part wasn't quite right. Kaelyn:           30:09   Very rarely do I get, um, you know, Rekka: 30:11   Shock and surprise. Kaelyn:           30:14   Of like no, that was perfect. Rekka: 30:14   That's exactly how I pictured it. Kaelyn:           30:16   Yeah. Um, very rarely. Um, writers I think don't give themselves enough credit a lot of times for how aware of the strengths and weaknesses of their own books they are. Rekka: 30:26   Well, so often I go to my editor because I've gotten to the point where I know something's funky about it, but I don't know where the smell is coming from. Kaelyn:           30:34   Every time I get a draft back from Ruz, the note in the draft is something like that. Just take it. Rekka: 30:39   I never want to look at this again. Kaelyn:           30:42   Um, yeah, exactly. Rekka: 30:44   Sorry. I thought it was talking about myself. Um, Kaelyn:           30:47   Oh, so that's not just him. That's all of you. Rekka: 30:49   All of us. Well that's what I'm saying. You know, like, yes, we, we know something is wrong, but the, when the relief we feel when the editor pinpoints, the thing that we couldn't see is amazing. The editor's job is to wipe the petroleum off the lens so you can see in sharper detail like where the work needs to happen. Kaelyn:           31:11   Yeah. And bringing it back around is that okay when you're doing a second, third X number book, especially within the same, um, you know, at the same trilogy or just in the set, in the same world with maybe the same characters. Um, the editor is going to be involved a lot more from the beginning. Now, you know, as Rekka says a lot of times that's exciting and that's a good thing to have. Um, but I would like to point out that this is somebody now who, I was joking before, you're legally obligated to take their opinions into account, but you're legally obligated to take their opinions into account. Because here's the thing, if I guarantee you in your contract, there is a clause that says we're not publishing this if we're not happy with it. Rekka: 31:58   Right. I mean, okay - Kaelyn:           31:59   Acceptance of the manuscript is, is a big, it's a short clause that it's got big implications. Rekka: 32:09   Yeah. Kaelyn:           32:09   And you know, I'm not trying to say this to scare anyone, like, well, if I don't do exactly what they say, they're going to cancel my contract. It's not that. And if you're working with somebody who would do that, you probably don't want to be publishing with them, but you have to take into account that yes, your editor is your editor and they're on the creative side rather than the business side of this. But at the end of the day, there's probably a sales and marketing team behind them that is saying, look, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that you know, the book has already come out your first book. And they're saying it's sold to really well in this demographic. Um, the feedback we're getting, people really like this part. Rekka: 32:55   All of our five stars come from this genre reader. Kaelyn:           32:58   Exactly. They're not going to make you rewrite everything based upon that. But that is absolutely something that will be taken into account. So if they're saying, look your books - Rekka: 33:10   If you lean away from that group of readers. Kaelyn:           33:13   Maybe your book was borderline YA and the YA community just pounced all over it and this became, you know, a runaway success within that group. But then book two is taking a really hard left. Rekka: 33:27   Or it takes place 20 years later and they're no longer any youths to be. Kaelyn:           33:32   Yeah, actually that's interesting. You'd probably get around that. Say this is the thing, if you pose these things to me, I'm going to try and come up with solutions for them. Um, but it's taking a really hard left into something that is not going to appeal At all to the large readership of the first book. That's going to be a conversation. Rekka: 33:48   Right. I mean, so I always read that clause more as you phone in the manuscript. We are not going to print it, which is - Kaelyn:           33:59   Yes, that's an obvious implication. But there is that second layer of - Rekka: 34:02   Where you saw this going is not where - Kaelyn:           34:04   We're not sure we can get anyone to read this. Um, you know, if you are writing a book about, this is the thing, anything I say here, I'm going to put ideas in Rekka's head. Rekka: 34:17   Either that or you're looking around to my studio and you're going to get ideas and you're just going to end up describing one of my stories that I've already written. Kaelyn:           34:26   There's a lot of figurines around here I can. So if we, you know, if you're writing a book about like super powered, uh, teenagers, you know, trying living in their secret hideaway and trying to find out, you know, trying to gain contact with the aliens who made them this way or what have you. And uh, you know, we end on a, we've made contact with them. Let's see what happens. And then in the second book it turns out it's not aliens, it's Godzilla, but like actually Godzilla and like no aliens and it's, your editor is going to look at that and go, this is not what your first story was about and this is a trilogy. Rekka: 35:08   And this is not what your first story was setting up because each story is like, you know, your first sentence or into your first paragraph, your first book is going to earn you the readers for the second book. In fact, those are going to be, you know, the readers who care the most about what happens in book two because they've already read book one. Kaelyn:           35:24   And I think we kind of, you know, we want to give writer,s creators for that matter as much autonomy to, create the way that they see things going. Um, you know, you'll see on Twitter all the time like, and it's correct that authors are not obligated to readers. They are not there to write what you want them to write. Rekka: 35:53   It's not fan service. Kaelyn:           35:54   Exactly. I agree with all of that. But I will say that people who have invested time, money and emotional mental energy in your book deserve to not then be kicked in the ass. Rekka: 36:11   So like if you're having an idea that's so far off the board from what you set up in your first book, just save that for the next series, you know? Kaelyn:           36:20   Or you know, I'm going to talk to you, your editor about it. I guess if there's like, if it's, if you planned that all along and you've, you know - Rekka: 36:25   And this is another thing, it's like if you know where that was going, if you planned it all along, make sure they know that before book one revisions are done because maybe they can help you set that up so it won't surprise and ass kick anybody. Kaelyn:           36:37   But again, you've probably already talked to your editor about this. And so again, this is where the accepted manuscript clause comes into play. Depending on how detailed you got and depending on you know, what their plan was for you and your book and your marketing and stuff. There may actually be specific things written into the contract about the book, which I know sounds like such a crazy micromanaging type thing to do Rekka: 37:02   But it's, it shows the more detail that you know about the series when you're signing the contract, the more detail will appear in the contract. You know, like if you don't know what, if you don't know that it's going to be a trilogy for sure, but they want your second book, they're going to say in an unnamed science fiction novel of no less than a hundred thousand words or whatever. But if they know that it's going to be the sequel, then it's a sequel set in the same world. Kaelyn:           37:28   Or yeah, they will put in their set in the same, you know, whatever legal words they're going to use. But world of the first book of this with the same characters with the same, you know, basically what they're doing is they're telling you we want more of this, Rekka: 37:41   We want more of exactly this. Um, don't pull a fast one on us. Kaelyn:           37:46   So if you come back with something that is completely not that they will, they're probably won't accept the manuscript. Rekka: 37:52   Well, they can just point to the contract and look, look, that's not what we bought. Kaelyn:           37:56   Yeah. It's not meant to be scary. I'm not trying to like freak anyone out by, uh, by saying this, you know, it's just something to keep in mind. Rekka: 38:01   And in fact, she really doesn't mean for this to be scary because the whole point of this episode is, Hey, you get to work with a buddy, you have a safety system. Kaelyn:           38:10   Exactly. Rekka: 38:10   And this, and somebody that you can just go, okay, I wrote this chapter. I can't tell if I'm hitting it, you know, and just like you can get a response back within a reasonable timeframe and it says, yeah, no, this is great. Keep going. And like who gives a thumbs up every now and then, like on demand is really awesome. Kaelyn:           38:28   Good job. Rekka: 38:29   And also correction, you know, like path correction. If you aren't really, you know, if if feel weak about it, is it nerves or is it really bad and your editor can tell you. Kaelyn:           38:40   Yup. So, um, Rekka: 38:42   Okay, but that okay, but here's the one thing that's weird about this whole process. Your editor before has seen you at your best. You're polishing the script now. Now you are, you are going to show them the piles of dirty laundry on the floor of your bedroom. Kaelyn:           38:55   No, no one is surprised by the curtain being pulled back. Rekka: 38:59   But it's different. Kaelyn:           38:59   It's different. Yes. Um, Rekka: 39:01   I definitely know that. I don't make my sentences, you know, they're not the final sentences in the first draft. Kaelyn:           39:08   Yeah. Um, no one is surprised by the current being pulled back here. That's not, you know, anything that is going to shock and horrify your editors. Anytime you get a draft back, there's going to be an understanding of how rough it is. You know, like if it's like, look, there are sentence fragments in here. There are parts where I trailed off and started drawing in pictures of the pizza I was going to eat after this. Rekka: 39:29   There's pizza inside. Kaelyn:           39:31   So there's expectations there. There's realistically adjusted perceptions Rekka: 39:37   But it is weird too, to feel like you were on your best behavior and now suddenly like this is, this is you with it all hanging out. And not only that, but like you're coming to them with a little bit of like, Oh, I don't know, like I need help with this. Like not only like did you pretend to have it all together and know where the series was going when you sign the contract. Um, now like they're seeing it at its scrappiest and, and you are asking for like, what should I do next with this? Kaelyn:           40:05   Yeah, yeah. Rekka: 40:06   But conversations you have are going to be so exciting and ideas thrown back and forth and all that kind of like, they want this to be the best. Kaelyn:           40:14   I mean, my favorite part of editing books is, is the plot. Um, you know, Rekka: 40:19   So that's good for people who need help with the plot. Kaelyn:           40:22   Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, my absolute favorite thing is I'll ask Ruz if maybe it's okay if I put a picture online of like one of the things that I sent him, but um, it's like I love just getting a piece of paper sitting down, writing out this happens, this happens drawing arrows and circles and dots and you know, paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence in court against us. But I love doing that and I end up with some truly bonkers looking pieces of paper but it's, it's so much fun. Rekka is far more organized. She has post-its and, Rekka: 40:57   Thumbtacks and index cards. Kaelyn:           40:57   Spreadsheets, and color-coded index cards. Rekka: 41:02   So this does make me feel like we should add the caveat of you are working directly with a lot of unagented authors. Kaelyn:           41:13   Yes, yes we are. Parvus has a lot of unagented authors. If you have an agent, however you're going to be working with them a lot. Rekka: 41:22   Yeah. This, this might be a process while you are on submission with the first book, which again, same, same issue where the editor at the publisher may cause some the catastrophic ripples. But you can still work with a buddy and you might even get the buddy system in a little bit earlier in the process. Kaelyn:           41:42   Yeah, agents over the last few years, I would say probably, especially within the last decade, but before that as well have really taken on much more of an editorial role. Rekka: 41:53   And not all of them still not like there are plenty that are pretty hands off once you've sold the property. Kaelyn:           41:58   But um, you know, it's very normal before, you know, when an agent takes you on as a client and you decide what they're going to try and sell for you, it's very normal for them to give editorial suggestions and direction. Rekka: 42:11   When we talk to Caitlin McDonald, she said that she will probably go over a story at least twice. Kaelyn:           42:16   Yeah, exactly. And um, you know, depending on the agent, how polished it's going to be when, you know, they try to sell. It probably depends partially on who they're trying to sell it to and um, what editors, they know, how they work and what they're going to be looking for. But for your other books, again, it depends, varies agent to agent. Rekka: 42:36   I know authors whose agents will definitely be editorial for the book that goes on submission. But after that they don't want to steer the, uh, the author and the incorrect direction when the editor might come back and, and - Kaelyn:           42:49   Yeah, they'll kind of go, well that's you and your editor. That's, you know, what your - Rekka: 42:52   You can copy me on big conversations. Kaelyn:           42:54   Exactly. Yeah. You know, again, it depends so much of this, this industry is so subjective depending on how the person works. Rekka: 43:00   Because there's every person in the mix as a different ingredients and you don't come up with the same, I mean, no book is, you know, direct copy of another. Kaelyn:           43:09   From my perspective, every author is different. Rekka: 43:12   Right. Well that's what I'm trying to say is that each author, each editor, each agent are different personalities with different preferences. And by combining those things, you get a chemical reaction that results in a different kind of book than it would with different ingredients and different people. Kaelyn:           43:26   Yeah. No, and I've mentioned this in previous episodes where we've talked about editorial kind of stuff. And I will say, as I said before, this is me, I can be pretty flexible with how I work. So I try to work with how things work best for the author. If they want to talk to me a lot about this kind of stuff, I am thrilled and over the moon to talk to them. If they really just kind of want to go off into their corner, work on it and come back to me when they have something, that's fine too. Um, you know, I will, they do have to tell me how it is. Rekka: 43:59   Well, yeah. So suppose you, Before they start writing this draft, they've probably already talked to you about the outline. Kaelyn:           44:04   Well that what I mena, and even with the outline, if they want to go into the, you know, go off into their corner, figure out how they do and then come back to me with it. Um, or if they want to talk once every couple of weeks or you know, text me about, that's fine too. I as the editor try to be a little more flexible. I know not everyone does that. I think they try to, if they can, they'll make any reasonable accommodations. Um, Rekka: 44:28   Reasonable accommodations. Like we said, this is, you know, professional situations, still would, it shouldn't devolve into unprofessional like demands on the either side. Kaelyn:           44:32   Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but anyway, the whole point is that, you know, everyone works differently. If I can help accommodate someone to, so that I can get the best possible book out of them. Of course I'm going to do that. Rekka: 44:53   Yeah. New Speaker: 44:54   On that note, uh, one of the things a good editor knows how to do is cut things off when they're taking too long. So, uh, we've been talking for a bit and I think we've said, I think we covered everything we need to. Rekka: 45:04   A couple of chapters that are coming out. Kaelyn:           45:05   Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll do some editing of our own. Rekka: 45:08   We'll blend that, that information into the rest of it. Kaelyn:           45:11   Yeah. So, um, you know, that was a kind of just talking about the difference between writing your second book in a trilogy first your first and we just, we keep saying trilogy just because - Rekka: 45:20   So what we're really referring to is writing a book under the direct supervision of the editor rather than writing a book you hope an editor will buy. Kaelyn:           45:29   Um, we just keep saying trilogy because it's so industry standard at this point. Rekka: 45:33   It is pretty typical. Although, you know, like not always, a lot of really successful stuff become long running series. Kaelyn:           45:39   Yeah and um, I don't know if you've noticed this, but um, again, especially in YA, I'm noticing it's quadrilogies, now we've moved away where, we're upping the stakes here. Rekka: 45:50   Well, I think you see this a lot in um, you know, film and TV also if something's working, give us more of it to sell it to the crowd that already loves it because they're going to show up for it. And it's like, it's very business, salesy minded, but like, hey. Kaelyn:           46:08   Don't you want to sell books? Rekka: 46:09   I mean, think of the, it's not new. Think of the Foreigner Series by CJ Cherry, you know, like this long running series. Nobody says no to them if they're selling, right? So if you've got a built in audience, then you could probably talk your publisher and do a few more series Kaelyn:           46:25   There are series that will go until the author decides time to stop. Rekka: 46:29   Or they die. Kaelyn:           46:30   Or they die. Rekka: 46:30   Then they bring in a second author to work on that series and keep working on it until they say stop. New Speaker: 46:36   es. So, um, anyway, so that was, you know, about working with an editor verse working on your own. Um, hopefully that didn't completely, hopefully that came off not scary. Rekka: 46:50   See, like I said, I see a lot of hope in and um, this is a collaboration now. Kaelyn:           46:56   Yeah, definitely. Rekka: 46:57   You know, so I see a lot of hope in that. It's a very lonely thing to write a book. It's a very lonely thing to write a book. You don't know if anyone will like. So when you can have someone saying, you know, this is working, this is working or you know what, it would be working if we did address this and your editor is not going to write the book for you. So it's not taking away your autonomy. Is it not taking away your creative control, it's just going to steer you towards success both story-wise and hopefully like, you know, sales wise because again, you're both in this because you hope the book will sell in a way that has a return Kaelyn:           47:30   Yeah, exactly. So, um, thank you so much everyone for listening. Um, as always, you can find us online. Rekka: 47:38   Yup. We are @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram. Send us your questions there. You can post them straight onto our wall if you are happy to have those questions, you know, identified under your name. If you are asking a question anonymously, you can DMS on Twitter. They are wide open. So uh, come on in and ask us your publishing, writing and everything in between questions and we'll address them in future episodes. We'll either, if they're a big topic, we can, um, you know, pick those out and do entire episodes or we can - Kaelyn:           48:09   We are open to suggestions. Rekka: 48:10   Yeah. And we, yeah, definitely. But we can also do like a listener questions episode again. We've done one of those after Submissions September. Kaelyn:           48:16   Maybe we'll wrap up the year with that. Rekka: 48:18   Yeah. Maybe a 2019 listener questions a year end review kind of thing. Yes. Um, yeah. So send us your questions. We need them now that we've announced that player in that and you can find us at patreon.com/WMBcast and your support would be greatly appreciated to help us run this podcast and the quality to which you have become accustomed. We appreciate you listening and we especially appreciate folks who leave reviews on Apple podcasts and they've finally decided it's called Apple podcasts. Kaelyn:           48:48   That was, that took a while to. Rekka: 48:50   That did take a while, well they waited for the Apple like, um, event in September and we were waiting to find out what that was going to be. So thank you again for listening and we will talk to you again in two weeks.    

Rekka: 00:00 Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything, everything, everything in between. And sometimes after. Kaelyn: 00:07 Sometimes after. I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:12 And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn: 00:16 And today we're talking about that after. Rekka: 00:17 Huh. Whoa. Yeah. So folks, Kaelyn: 00:21 Yeah, just... This is a little bit of a heavy episode. Rekka: 00:23 Sliiiiightly. Kaelyn: 00:26 Um, we're talking today about money, but not in the way we talked about money in our previous money episode. Which was episode nine, uh, if you want to go back and check that out. Rekka: 00:36 Yep. Um, that's the other half of the, well, the other third, I don't know, there's probably many more pieces of this conversation. Kaelyn: 00:40 There's a lot of pieces. Yeah. Rekka: 00:42 But you can, you can brush up on that episode if you're thinking about money for your writing career lately. Um, this episode will cover a lot of other stuff, so they don't really overlap that much. Kaelyn: 00:53 Yeah. This is the episode... So before we talked about how you get your money, this is after you get your money... Rekka: 01:01 How to not lose it all. Kaelyn: 01:02 And... Rekka: 01:04 Unless you want to! Kaelyn: 01:05 Unless you want to. Rekka: 01:06 Blow chunks of money, all you want. Kaelyn: 01:09 Yeah. Um, so we talk a lot in this episode about, you know, when you hear numbers, what those then actually come down to and setting realistic goals and expectations for yourself and you know, just some general things to know about how money works in publishing, especially if this is going to be your primary or only source of income. Rekka: 01:31 Right. And I think the biggest takeaway from this episode, um, is clearly the attitude that we come at our money with in the writing industry. Kaelyn: 01:42 Yeah. So, um, you know, it is, it is a little bit of a heavy episode. Um, it's a lot. We... Rekka: 01:46 It's a lot, but I mean, it's not like we get into specific— Kaelyn: 01:50 No, no. Rekka: 01:51 We did some rough math at the beginning. Kaelyn: 01:53 Just for an example. Rekka: 01:54 But we're not talking about like, OK, and then you move this amount of money over here into these— Kaelyn: 02:00 Yeah do not take advice from us on that. Rekka: 02:03 We're not offering specific investment advice. What we are trying to offer is like the mindset by which you, uh, pay attention to your writing income and how that can build into your life in whatever way you dream your life taking shape. Kaelyn: 02:20 Yup. So, um, you know, we hope you find this episode helpful. Rekka: 02:24 Yeah, we really, we debated doing this topic, but the fact is that Kaelyn came up with this podcast as all the things we didn't know about publishing and didn't know who to ask. And so this is definitely in that category. Kaelyn: 02:41 And you know, as we talked about, like in the first money episode we did, there is this taboo around it. And this is a different kind of taboo because this isn't talking about, you know, how much money they agreed to give you. This is talking about now dealing with the money they agreed to give you. So, um, you know, take a listen. Like I said, it's a little, it's, it's a lot in this episode, but it's important. So, um, yeah, we hope you enjoy, we hope you find it informational. Rekka: 03:08 Yeah. I mean you may not enjoy this so much per se, but yeah, this one is important, I think. If... You may want to set aside, if you're just like, you know, doing something where you're only half listening, I honestly would say come back a little bit later and give this one your full attention. And I'm not just saying that because we were the ones talking. Kaelyn: 03:27 No, no. Rekka: 03:28 But that's a very good reason. All right everybody take a listen to this episode and you know, hit us up online if you have any questions after. 03:50 Piano Music. Rekka: 03:52 Today's episode is kind of a follow up sort of second part sister, cousin thing to Episode 9: "I get paid for this, right? The money episode." Kaelyn: 04:05 We're talking about a completely different aspect of money today. So in episode nine we kind of went through like how you get money essentially. Um, you know, the process, how you get paid and who's taking it along the way. Today we're talking about kind of when you get that money, when you already have it. And this is again, you know, it's... Money is a taboo topic, especially in publishing, I think. Rekka: 04:34 Yeah. I'm not sure how this shame around money came up in society, but people definitely don't want to talk about how much they're making. Um, how equal or less equal they are to other people. Um, it might be in your contract that you can't even disclose how much you make as a, you know, as a sale. Kaelyn: 04:54 Yeah. Which by the way, that's, that's pretty illegal in most states. So what we're talking about in this episode is money that you've earned and in, as a writer, and I'm not going to say what to do with it because obviously it's your decision to come up with what to do with it. Rekka: 05:16 Right. And you, you have specific needs and expenses in your life that are going to be different from even your neighbor. So when we talk about money coming in, we talk about your author income, we're referring to the advances and the royalties. Kaelyn: 05:33 Yes. And again, these are two separate things. So I think the question on a lot of people's minds when, you know, they've sold their first book, they get a decent advance, very excited, is, okay, well I can do this full time now, Right? And— Rekka: 05:53 Oh, that's whew. Okay. So you've got the American dream and then you have the dream. You know, the American dream is hold down a job until you retire and make a salary and have predictable income. The writer's dream is "I'm going to make writing my only source of income and that is going to support me through the rest of my life," essentially. Kaelyn: 06:15 Yeah. And I'm going to say something that I'd like everyone to keep in mind when listening through this episode. A lot of people, even people who have sold multiple novels, who have had successful book series, this is not their only job. Rekka: 06:33 Their only source of income. Kaelyn: 06:34 Their only source of income. Yes. Um, well, I would even say their only job. I know, you know, a lot of people who write do not write full time. They're teachers. They're, you know, they're working in office. It's— Rekka: 06:47 Right. And the reason I rephrased it was because for some writers their life support income comes from someone else, some other source and not through them putting through physical labor. So this could be a spouse, they could be supported by a parent or other family member, they could be on some kind of structured income that is not related to the writing. Kaelyn: 07:14 Yes. Um, yes. So a lot of people who have had successful books, this is not their only source of money. Um, and like Rekka said, the writer's dream, "I've done this and now, I'm going to quit everything else and be a writer full time." Rekka: 07:34 Often it includes things like "move to this fabulous city." Kaelyn: 07:38 Yeah. Um, yeah. Rekka: 07:41 So I mean that's, that's an extra point then we'll get to later is like the cost of living. Kaelyn: 07:46 Yes. Rekka: 07:46 As part of your writer's dream, the way you envision it might be very different for the cost of living where you are now. Kaelyn: 07:51 Yeah. So we were, you know, we were talking at length before this episode about how to kind of walk through this because it is, it is a sensitive subject and this is different because it's not factual, like the other— Rekka: 08:02 Right. Unfortunately we have to make a lot of assumptions to even have this conversation. Kaelyn: 08:08 So one of the things, and we talked at, we mentioned this briefly in in episode nine, but it's much more appropriate here is to manage your expectations of what's going to be happening now that you've sold a book. Um, a lot of authors, especially debut authors, you're not going to sign for a book and then get handed a check for $1 million. Rekka: 08:31 Right. Kaelyn: 08:32 That— Rekka: 08:33 Would be lovely. Kaelyn: 08:33 That would be amazing. But you would basically have to be the first person to touch down on Mars or something, you know, like you, you know, you, you rescued one of the Royal babies, you know, something like you've got to have like THE book. Rekka: 08:48 And notice, those are autobiographies, those are not genre fiction. Kaelyn: 08:53 Exactly. And so, and you know what, that's a very good point, genre fiction, it's even going to be, you know, especially for debut authors, it's going to be even a harder sell, so to speak. Okay. So let's say for just the sake of round numbers, you've written a good solid book. Uh, one of the Big Five has picked it up and you've gotten a $30,000 advance. Rekka: 09:14 Okay. Is this for one book or a trilogy? Kaelyn: 09:16 Let's go with one book. Rekka: 09:17 Okay. Kaelyn: 09:17 Let's say this is, you know, they're really solidly behind this. Rekka: 09:21 Okay. Kaelyn: 09:23 Well, first of all, right off the bat, you're not getting handed a check for $30,000. You're probably going to be getting handed a check for 15. Rekka: 09:30 Right. So what you're assuming there is that it's going to be paid in two installments, one upon signing and one upon publication. Kaelyn: 09:37 Yes. Rekka: 09:39 If the Big Five publishes your book, chances are you also had an agent that was helping you submit to those Big Five publishers because Big Five don't tend to take unsolicited. Um, or even if they have open calls for them, it's, it's a very, very— Kaelyn: 09:54 They're gonna make you go get an agent regardless. Rekka: 09:56 Yeah. Kaelyn: 09:57 Um, so the $15,000 check is going first to your agent. Rekka: 10:02 Right. Kaelyn: 10:02 They're going to take their cut of it, then you're going to get a check. Then you've gotta pay taxes on that. Rekka: 10:08 Right. So say you have 15,000. Kaelyn: 10:10 Yeah. Rekka: 10:11 Say your agent takes 15% the check that the agent sends you is 12,750. So you've, you've lost a chunk already. Now you have to pay. Kaelyn: 10:22 Now you've gotta pay, probably about 30%— Rekka: 10:24 Yes, so— Kaelyn: 10:24 —on that. So that's going to take it down to 8. Rekka: 10:27 30/33, depends on the size of the check. So now you're at $8,925. Yes, everyone, I have a calculator out. You've heard my math before. I was not going to mess around with this one, but you've gone from $15,000 to just under $9,000, which is probably not what you had in mind when you heard that first number. Kaelyn: 10:45 Yeah. So, okay, so now you're going all right. Well I mean I still have nine grand. That's great. That's fantastic. Rekka: 10:51 It is fantastic. Kaelyn: 10:52 Can you live off of that? For a year? Rekka: 10:53 How long? Yeah. And, you know, you still have probably 18 months maybe before this book is going to come out and you'll see the other nine thousand. Kaelyn: 11:03 So when we say managing your expectations is yes, this may seem like a lot of money. Yes. I've got a $30,000 advance, I'm gonna walk into my day job and you know, flip off my boss, march out and, you know, go do a victory dance on the street outside. Rekka: 11:20 If your boss was going to fire you in January anyway and you were only going to make $9,000 have at it, sure do that. That's unlikely. Kaelyn: 11:31 But so when we say manage your expectations, is that first thing figuring out how much money you're actually going to be getting with your advance and when you're going to be getting it. Rekka: 11:41 Yep. Kaelyn: 11:42 Then figure out how much money you need to live off of, say for a year and then figure it's going to be even longer than that. Rekka: 11:52 Yeah. So this scenario and the reason I asked about how many books were in this contract was because in this contract the book is already written. So you are being paid 9,000 now and 9,000 in say 16 months for work you've already done. And at this point you may have to do a round or two of revisions and go over line edits and copy edits and then you're mostly done with the book itself. Kaelyn: 12:19 Yes. Rekka: 12:19 This does not include marketing and and uh, any touring or anything that you might, events that you might have to do. So at this point you are receiving money for work you've already done, which is different if you get a three-book deal based on one book. Now you've got two more books to write. Kaelyn: 12:41 Yeah. So now let's use the same scenario. And this time you're getting $30,000 for each book as an advance. Rekka: 12:50 Okay. So assuming that this is a three-book deal? Kaelyn: 12:55 Three-book deal, let's go with the three-book deal. Rekka: 12:59 For 90,000 total. You're getting paid 9,000 and 9,000 for a book that's already written. And I would recommend you start writing book two right now. Kaelyn: 13:10 Yes. Rekka: 13:10 Because you're not going to get the next 9,000 until you hand in the manuscript. Kaelyn: 13:16 Book two. Rekka: 13:16 Yeah. Kaelyn: 13:17 So you're going to be getting $9,000 six times over the course of probably about four years. Yeah. So quick math, that's $54,000. Can you live for four years off $54,000? Now those of you at home screaming at your, into your headphones, we'll have royalties. Rekka: 13:39 Right, so if this is a jointly accounted three book deal... Kaelyn: 13:43 Well yeah and we can get to that. But then on top of this, you first have to earn out the $30,000 advance. They don't care about taxes and your agent's cut. So it's not like you earn out the money that you received. You have to earn out the entire advance. Rekka: 13:59 Right. So you have to earn out $30,000 as opposed to earning out $18,000 that you actually got. Yes. And that's assuming that these aren't jointly accounted. Kaelyn: 14:09 Yes. And so if they are jointly accounted, you are earning out $90,000. Rekka: 14:15 Before you see a penny of royalties. Kaelyn: 14:17 Yes. And in your contract (read the contract), it will say, you know, it depends on if you know your first book sells and sells really, really well and they haven't paid you the next part of your royalty yet. There'll be stipulations and you know that's tough agents work out and. Rekka: 14:33 yeah, you can have some input there too. Kaelyn: 14:35 Yeah, exactly. But you have to keep in mind a lot of books do not earn out their advances. And obviously the hope for every author is that their book sells and is very successful and everybody makes money off of it and readers get to love and enjoy the book, but. Rekka: 14:57 and the publisher is happy and comes back for another trilogy. Kaelyn: 14:59 And publisher's happy and comes back and wants more for you. A lot of books do not earn out their advances. Um, so banking on, well then I'll have royalties is not necessarily a sound decision to me. Rekka: 15:17 Plus, think about how long it would take to earn out that advance. By then your book sales are probably on a downward slope because of the nature of it not being a new release anymore. So your royalties for a book are very unlikely to ever feel anything like those advanced payments. Kaelyn: 15:38 Yeah. Um, now again, this is not always, Rekka: 15:45 This is not always the case there. There's a reason we call it the writer's dream. There are people who do exceed expectations and make money off a series for a very long time. Kaelyn: 15:55 Yeah. Um, so the, the whole point of this is just manage your expectations. Go out there and do some research. There's all kinds of websites and um, you know, even communities that will give you like statistics and information about this stuff. And the thing is that it's scary because it's very hard to quantify because this moves into the next point we're making, which this is sales. Rekka: 16:18 Yup. Kaelyn: 16:18 You are essentially working in sales. Rekka: 16:22 And from the moment that you find an agent and start working on that book with that agent, you are working on a product. Kaelyn: 16:29 Yes, you are. And this is a product that you have to invest time into without being paid for. And you have to make something that other people are going to want to buy in order for you to live off of it. Rekka: 16:46 This is the little bit, this was your, um, metaphor that you said earlier. It's a little bit like software development. Kaelyn: 16:52 Yes. It's, if you're making an app that people are going to use and spend money on, that's great. But you still have to build the app. Rekka: 17:04 and not every app becomes the killer app. Kaelyn: 17:06 Not every app becomes, you know, Snapchat. Um, I think we kind of fall into this mentality in any sort of creative process. And that could be from writing a book to developing an app that "I made this, this thing and it's great, and everyone should give me money for it," but that's not what actually happens. What happens is you need to sell this to them. So if you want to write, you know, this book that you just love this story and it's just great but no one wants to buy it, that's not going to work out for you with your career as a writer then. So you are working in sales and like any other person working in sales, be they, you know, for instance like a medical device salesperson or you know, a purveyor of bulk coffees and spices. You have to manage your money in a way that allows you to live off of it. Rekka: 18:07 If you think about this more like you are not an employee at a company with this money, you are the company itself. Kaelyn: 18:15 And you have to pay yourself. Rekka and I were talking about this, um, beforehand and you know, I am not a writer. I am on the business side of things. Um, you know, Rekka: 18:26 You happen to cut some checks every now and then. Kaelyn: 18:27 Yes. And as you know, I've mentioned a few times on this. I also work in finance. So I come at all of this with a little bit of a different mentality and approach. The way writers get paid and the way writers earn money. And by the way, I don't mean writing, I mean how they are paid is not the same for a lot of other people in the world. For most of the other people in the world who do work and then receive a paycheck. Rekka: 18:57 For an agreed amount for per either item or hour. Kaelyn: 19:02 Yes. That they did. And I am, you know, focusing on writers. But this is, you know, this is creators a lot of times, and I'm not talking about, you know, somebody who's a graphic designer for a company that goes in and gets a salary to show up, to do work every day. I'm talking about people who make things and then have to hope that other people buy them. Rekka: 19:21 Right. Kaelyn: 19:23 I think writers especially fall into a little bit of a trap because let's, there's a difference between a writer and say a craftsman because in order for the craftsman to have something to sell, they need to buy things beforehand to make that. They have to maybe get a business loan and invest time into this. And, you know, take this enormous risk. Rekka: 19:47 So the closest parallel would be the time the writer has to, you know, make for their writing in order to create a product. Kaelyn: 19:55 Yeah. And I think we can fall into this thing where, because it is, yes, you're not making money, but this is not costing you anything to do either. Rekka: 20:05 The upfront investment is all time. Kaelyn: 20:09 Yes. Rekka: 20:09 And effort and energy. Kaelyn: 20:10 Yes. So you don't have any money coming in, but you also didn't have to take out $100,000 business loan that now you also have to pay back. Rekka: 20:20 Which by the way, as a writer, you're not going to get a business loan. Kaelyn: 20:23 No, you're not. Um, so I think sometimes writers especially can fall into this trap of going, well, this isn't costing me anything. Don't think that it is costing you something because your time is valuable and your effort. Rekka: 20:43 And your energy. Kaelyn: 20:44 And your energy that you put into this where you're going, well I don't, it's just my time and my time is free. Rekka: 20:53 Well, that's what our country wants you to believe. However, you should put some value on your time. Kaelyn: 20:57 Put some value on your time and, but because of that, it's like, well, I can just write another book. I can just write another book. It's not going to cost me anything to write another book and then that will be my job. And that's for a lot of people, that's not how that works. So when I say I'm coming from, you know, like the business background of this and how for a lot of the people in the world that, you know, uh, earn money for themselves to live off of or have income coming in from somewhere, I think they would be very shocked by how writers live this way. Rekka: 21:40 Shocked and discouraged. Kaelyn: 21:41 Discouraged. But also the thing is that within this community, this seems normal because this is what everyone around you is doing. And I'm, I'm painting with a broad brush there, but like, it's something that you encounter more on a regular basis. So it's like, Oh, okay, well that's just, you know— Rekka: 22:00 Right. Yeah. If most of your exposure is to other writers versus people who go in to work at a gas station, at a doctor's office, at a, you know, a factory or something like that. Your experience and the experiences you see are going to be very different from what I think we were brought up at least in this country to expect from money. We have a very strange relationship with money in this country too. Kaelyn: 22:28 Well, so now why am I saying this? The point that I'm trying to make here is that mentally, I think it can be damaging to disconnect yourself from the quote-unquote rest of the world and how they manage their money. At the end of the day, it's no different than yours. You still need money to live off of. You still have living expenses. You still want, need money to retire, money set aside for, you know, emergencies and catastrophic events, money for things that you want in your life. Rekka: 23:01 Right. So you still need a budget. Kaelyn: 23:03 Yeah. And I think there is this disconnect almost between somebody who goes and, you know, works at an automobile plant for eight hours a day and is paid X amount of money for that hourly thing, and somebody who for instance say sells a book and gets a $30,000 advance because windfall money is a tricky, scary thing. Rekka: 23:31 And I think even calling it windfall money here is, is the opposite of what you're trying to convey. Kaelyn: 23:36 Exactly. Yes. But that's what it is. Rekka: 23:39 Right. It is, it is as if your employer paid you once a year for all the work you did for that year. Kaelyn: 23:51 Yep. Rekka: 23:52 And if that were the case, you'd be doing a heck of a lot more in, in intensive budgeting. Kaelyn: 23:56 Okay. So I'm going to use, uh, a personal example here and this is, this is an interesting story and um, req is going to hear this as you hear this because I didn't tell her about this beforehand. Rekka: 24:06 Oooh, juicy. Kaelyn: 24:08 We have family friends that won the lottery, but they won the $1,000 a week for life Lottery. Um, I learned a lot of very interesting things about how lotteries work when this happened. Um, so you know, it's married couple, they have one daughter. Here's something interesting. I didn't know when you, when especially like the lottery like that where it's an ongoing payment, um, you can percentage it out to people. Rekka: 24:40 Okay. Kaelyn: 24:40 It's just an interesting fun fact. So like, you know, their daughter gets X percent of it. Each of them have X percent in their name, even though they're married, you know, but every year there's a day of the year where they get the lump sum of money for that year. Rekka: 24:58 Okay. So even though it's a thousand per week, they're not, it's not, being direct deposited every week. Kaelyn: 25:03 They don't get a check of $1,000 every week. They get a lump sum payment once a year. Rekka: 25:07 So instead of having to budget what's left after taxes of their $1,000 a week, they have what's left after taxes of 52 weeks each year. Kaelyn: 25:15 Yes. Now they both are still working. I mean, they're getting to retirement age, but that's actually, you know, very smart of them. I think they're just, you know, kind of setting all this money aside. But even if they weren't, they're being handed their money for a year all at once. Rekka: 25:32 And that is a windfall. Kaelyn: 25:33 And that is a windfall. And they knew this. So what did they do? They went to a financial planner. Now again, this was, it's a different situation, but it's kind of not, because if you're, you know, let's say you have like a really big great advance and that's supposed to last you for whatever, going to talk, even if you get, you know, the $30,000 advance and you're just going to get like six installments of $9,000, iit's a not a bad idea to talk to someone about this. And you know, I think we hear financial planner and we get scared. It's a little intimidating. Rekka: 26:08 Well, you know, just like tax professional and all this kind of stuff, the first thing you think is, "I'm going to lose money to this person. I'm going to have less if I go get help." Kaelyn: 26:17 Yeah. But there's a reason that these people exist. It's because managing money is scary. Yes. And, Rekka: 26:25 And just like submitting to a publisher is scary and you feel that that agent earns are 15%... Kaelyn: 26:31 Financial planners also earn their 15%. And look, I'm not talking about, you know, giving it all to a brokerage firm to invest. Just, you know, saying like, I have this much money, um, I can, and they'll say, you can put it into this accountant how much, you know, if you continue doing this, this is how much you'll make and when do you want to retire? Do you want to retire? Um, but where I'm coming around to in sort of a little bit of a roundabout way here is windfall money can be very dangerous and... Just punch "lottery winners" into Google. And it will just give you story after story of people who won a good amounts of money. Rekka: 27:14 Enough to call a gob. Kaelyn: 27:15 Yeah. And it was gone in two years. Yeah. I'm gonna say this and it's not a judgment or anything. If you, especially if you are not used to having extra money and suddenly you've got a lot, it's going to seem like, wow, this is amazing. I've got all of this extra money. It is probably not as much as you think it is. Um. Rekka: 27:42 And when you think you have a lot, you might be less careful in how you budget it. Kaelyn: 27:46 Exactly. And that's exactly what I'm... The point I'm trying to get to here is that you need to be realistic about how far that money will get yet. Rekka: 27:55 And you brought up something earlier that we didn't discuss when we were planning this episode, but is another perhaps good way to think of it, not just as your salary, but think of it as your retirement savings. You get access to your retirement savings when you retire. You know, there's different kinds of accounts, there's different ways you get access to it, but you have a finite amount there. Kaelyn: 28:18 Yup. Rekka: 28:18 And you know, when you retire that you are going to be living off this amount for as long as possible, hopefully. Um, and I think there's a little bit more of a sense of reality of what that means in that framing than there is of like this is your advance until you get another advance for another book. Kaelyn: 28:39 You know, this is... We said at the beginning of the episode. No one can tell you how to spend your money on this. Everybody's going to have different needs and priorities, but if you're looking to make a living off of this, if this is what you want your regular full time job to be, being realistic about how much you're going to be making and how far it's going to get you is important when then deciding the lifestyle you want to lead. If you're very happy making whatever you make and you can just exist off of that, then you know, fantastic do that. But you've got to decide what your goals are, what you're aspiring to, what is going to say I consider myself a successful full time writer now. Rekka: 29:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah, what does that look like to you? Kaelyn: 29:25 And there's no answer. It's going to look different for everyone. Rekka: 29:28 And it's going to be very based in what you want, what you see as your vision of success. One thing you can do before you get that giant windfall is start to plan what it would cost for what you see as your vision of success so that you know, obviously every year, that cost will go up a little bit, but you'll have a really good baseline for what that means and take into account things like the cost of groceries. Take into account... If your vision of success is living in New York city, you need to put a, you need to account for the cost of groceries in New York city. The cost of getting to the grocery store because they are not usually nearby and owning a car may not seem practical. I mean like there are so many things to consider. Kaelyn: 30:12 Yeah. Rekka: 30:13 For something like that. You know, really budget this out. Like it's really happening so that you get real numbers. Kaelyn: 30:19 Just be realistic. I'm not saying don't aspire to things. You absolutely should. Rekka: 30:23 No, this is, this is building the budget for the life you want and that's great, but it will tell you how much you need to have that life. And it's not meant to be discouraging, but just to temper your enthusiasm when a big check comes in as to whether that big check gets you there. Kaelyn: 30:38 A lot of people who you know want to be full time writers are going to have to spend a lot of time confronted with the reality of how their money is going. But again, I'm gonna stress it's no different from anyone else in the world, in terms of... Rekka: 30:53 Right. The difference comes in terms of the frequency of these payments, but the dollar is still worth a dollar. It's not a sparkly gummy dollar that, you know, is, you know it has no extra magic than regular currency. Kaelyn: 31:07 Don't disassociate yourself from the rest of the population in terms of how your money works. How you get it may be very different, but how it works and how you have to plan for it is exactly the same as everyone else. Rekka: 31:19 Once it's in your bank account. Those dollars function the same as everyone else's. Kaelyn: 31:23 So don't fall into this trap where, "well I'm a writer, it's different." Rekka: 31:29 Okay. It is. It may be slightly different but not in the way you think it is. Kaelyn: 31:36 Well yeah. What I mean is like, "I'm a writer. How my, how I manage my money is different," because everyone still needs the same things. You know, regardless of where you're living, you are presumably part of a society that has certain norms and standards in the way that it functions and you need money in order to adhere to those. Rekka: 31:53 Right. Kaelyn: 31:54 So none of this was meant to be discouraging. None of this is meant to, you know, Rekka: 31:59 if anything, this is to empower you to have, you know, a plan before you get to the point where you cause your own financial collapse because you are overwhelmed. And the idea of coming up with a plan sounds scary. So you avoid coming up with a plan and then the money doesn't last. Kaelyn: 32:19 When I was working on my MA, you know, I was a, I was a graduate assistant and one of my jobs was to run the graduate student events series. Most of them were academic based, except one of them was what we called the PhD scare session. And a lot of, you know the people that I was with that we were all working on this graduate degree, were all planning to go get a PhD and once a semester we had the PhD scare session, which was, we went and got a pizza and a few beers and we brought all of the professors in and they sat there for two hours and told horror stories about getting their PhD and how hard it was, and how you're just basically not going to have money for five to seven years, and how they didn't sleep, how, you know, all of this terrible stuff. And they always finished it by saying, "we would not have taken you into this program if we didn't think that, you know, you were capable, everyone was capable of going to do this. But you need to understand that this is how it is. It's, there are times that it's going to be very unpleasant. It's not going to be fun. It's not going to be easy. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it." Rekka: 33:40 Right. Kaelyn: 33:41 Now, that said, I didn't, do it. Rekka: 33:42 I was just about to say. Kaelyn: 33:45 For a whole bunch of different reasons. But, um, when I was in grad school school, uh, that was the, the great recession started in the middle of that. And um, a lot of people were losing funding. Things were changing. But then that's another thing to consider is sometimes the economy changes. Things can change in your financial future. So in my case, I made the conscious, like I had to sit down one day and work all of this out and go, well, I'm not going to get a PhD because to me, it wasn't worth it. I didn't want to spend, you know, all of these years when the financial situation of the world was just so bad, you know? So I decided not to do it. And that's why I am not Dr. Kaelyn. Rekka: 34:30 I was literally about to say that. Get out of my brain. Kaelyn: 34:33 So yeah. So I mean, the point of this episode is not to make it sound like you've chosen so poorly, but to give you the information to prepare you for when those these circumstances arise. And the maybe a voice in the back of your head will say, Oh, Kaelyn warned me about this, that you should not go buy those very expensive shoes that are so on brand from my book title. Kaelyn: 35:01 I have a bad shoe habit. Rekka: 35:04 I was not trying to point fingers. Kaelyn: 35:05 No, It's fine. It's, I, I've, I've accepted it. It's, you know, there are a lot of things about writing a book that are very hard in all different aspects. One of the harder ones is going to be the money issue. It's just, I mean, it's just how it is. It's not, you know, it's something that we don't want to think about. We want to, you know, say like, Oh well I'm going to write this book and then it's going to be, you know, my life is going to be exactly where I want it to be. The money side of the writing process is, I won't say the hardest because I don't think that's it, but it's definitely up there. And while it may not be the hardest, I think it's the most difficult to deal with. Rekka: 35:50 Yeah. And there are a lot of difficult steps. I mean, like if writing was easy, everyone would do it. It's the phrase and—. Kaelyn: 35:56 Well, that's the thing is everyone, everyone can do it. Just not everyone necessarily should. Rekka: 36:01 well, okay. So if being successful at writing easy, then everyone would be, um, yeah. And as I said, like going in with the, for knowledge of what your actual needs are to have the writing life that you envision and there is no correct answer to what you should envision. Some people are happy to make writing their side gig, Kaelyn: 36:27 Decide what success looks like for you. Rekka: 36:30 Yeah. Kaelyn: 36:31 And that can change by the way. Rekka: 36:32 Yeah. Yeah. And you can reevaluate every few years. Kaelyn: 36:34 No one's going to tattoo it across your back and say like, Oh well sorry, Rekka: 36:39 Look at you, you failed cause this is what's written on your back. And ya changed your mind. But you know, no the um, you know, you can reevaluate it every couple of years. You can change your mind and say, you know what, I thought I was happy writing on the side, but like writing gives me passion and my day job doesn't. And I would really like to figure out what it would take. Suddenly, I am curious what it would take to write full time. Yeah. And that's the thing is, research it before you attempt it. Kaelyn: 37:05 and just think about money. And I won't go so far as to say, be careful with it because that's not my business. But think about it and consider these things. And if you're unsure, reach out to someone. It doesn't have to be a financial planner. You know, like this is, I mean, my mom is really good at handling money and if I, to this day, if I have a question about something I call her and go like, "I dunno, what do you think? Like what should I do here?" Or in some cases, "what is this?" Um, you know, if you have someone in your life or reach out to other authors and ask them if they did anything special or talk to you know, your agent, your, you know, ask questions. Don't expect people to tell you things. Rekka: 37:52 Right. It never hurts to ask and it never hurts to get multiple opinions cause one person's experience, like we said, is not going to match another's. You can ask these questions, don't expect that someone is going to volunteer everything you need to know. Kaelyn: 38:08 Yeah. And don't feel silly asking the questions. It's okay not to know things. Rekka: 38:13 And everybody deals with these things. Kaelyn: 38:15 And it is much better to ask someone than to just remain ignorant of something that's important for you to know. Rekka: 38:24 Because then you're not only afraid of the money or afraid of being broke. You're also afraid of looking like you made a horrible mistake or that you can't manage money or what, I mean, there's like— Kaelyn: 38:34 —any number of things—. Rekka: 38:34 —like I said there's a lot of shame surrounding money in our, in our society. The people who don't have it are, um, shamed for not working hard enough, et cetera. When there's a whole lot more to it and the more you look into it. And plan and, you know, keep dreaming. It's just... Kaelyn: 38:50 Look, I'll use a personal example here. Um, you know, when I came in and Parvis and I have these business partners and I had to sit down and go through my finances with them and it was a very, like, jarring experience. Rekka: 39:04 You feel very vulnerable. Kaelyn: 39:05 Yeah. I felt very exposed. And at the same time I'm kinda like, there's nothing, you know, there's no reason this shouldn't, this should be something that, you know, especially with people that I'm invested with, to talk about. Rekka: 39:18 Yup. Kaelyn: 39:19 And now, you know, and this is coming from someone who, like I've mentioned in other episodes, I work in finance where we talk about money all the time, but we don't talk about our personal money, Rekka: 39:31 Right. Yes. It's a little bit like flashing your underwear at somebody. There's just a, um, a whole social, uh, parfait of— Kaelyn: 39:39 There's a social dynamic to it definitely. Rekka: 39:40 Yeah. I'm talking about money. And so there's... People are afraid of, of being heard, talking about money in the wrong way around the wrong people. Kaelyn: 39:49 Exactly. Yeah. And all of that said, you know, that's, you know, your own personal, what you're comfortable with, but don't be afraid to ask questions about money and don't be afraid to be frank about it because at the end of the day, it's your money and you need to make it do what you want it to do for your life. Rekka: 40:05 Yeah. Kaelyn: 40:06 On that note, we'll end with the same sentiment as the previous money episode, don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to talk to people about it and be realistic. Rekka: 40:15 Yeah. Kaelyn: 40:16 Windfall money can be a very dangerous thing. Rekka: 40:20 Right. Because it feels like a lottery dividend or something like that. Kaelyn: 40:25 Yeah. If nothing else, just seriously look up stories about lottery winners. Look at that. There've been studies, Rekka: 40:31 This is your PhD scare session. Kaelyn: 40:34 Yes. Um, look up stories about lottery winners. They've done studies on, you know, people getting windfall amounts of money in all different denominations and what's happened to it. And a lot of times the mismanagement comes down to people not realizing how much money they actually had. Right. How far it goes in what you can do with it. Yes. So, you know, look, I really hope that everyone listening to this goes out there and gets a $500,000 advance for a book that becomes a national bestseller and. Rekka: 41:06 Earns out and keeps earning. Kaelyn: 41:08 And just, you know, and then you get to go live in your, you know, Rekka: 41:12 Whatever your definition of dream author life is. Kaelyn: 41:15 I think I want like, I like being in New York, but like I want a castle in New York. Rekka: 41:24 You gotta write something first, Kaelyn. Kaelyn: 41:25 Yeah. Well, yes. Okay. Fair. But, Rekka: 41:29 So that's part of what you're planning. Kaelyn: 41:32 Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, you know, be realistic. Yeah. Manage your expectations. Rekka: 41:35 And we hope, you know, and we are not trying to scare anyone. Kaelyn: 41:39 No, no, definitely not. Rekka: 41:40 This episode is not your PhD scare session. That lotto Google search, Kaelyn: 41:44 That's your, that's your PhD scare session. Rekka: 41:47 Um, but we do just want to bring it up because that's what this podcast is for. We want to talk about the things that people don't understand about publishing. And one of the things is how strangely your income would be structured if you relied on this income to live. Kaelyn: 42:03 Yeah. It's, um, quarterly at best. Rekka: 42:07 At best. And that's royalties. Kaelyn: 42:09 Yes. Rekka: 42:10 And not even advances. Kaelyn: 42:10 Yes. So do your research, manage your expectations, but also, you know, aspire to what you want to do with it. Rekka: 42:18 Don't be afraid to dream. Just also know what goes into that to make it functional. Kaelyn: 42:21 Just wake up every now and then. Rekka: 42:22 No! And like that's the thing, it's like there is nothing wrong with wanting. Kaelyn: 42:28 yeah. Rekka: 42:28 But you need to understand what's under the chassis of that dream and how it's going to function. Kaelyn: 42:35 Yeah. And don't fall into the trap of just wanting and not doing anything about it. So anyway, that's the episode. That was a bit of a while. I won't say a bummer, but Rekka: 42:44 no, but we, we tackled that one. We grabbed it by the throat and we shook it a lot. So Kaelyn: 42:50 No, we did, we did really spend a lot of time beforehand talking about this and kind of deciding what we wanted to do and say, so, Rekka: 42:57 and we understand that our audience has a very wide experience of, you know, finances and life and abilities. Um, so we wanted to make sure that what we said was not the bright and sunny best case scenario for everybody. Kaelyn: 43:14 I would be very curious and I'm going to do some digging on this and if I come up with anything, I'll post an update authors and writers who, you know, are internationally known and that's, you know, what they do. Um, and be curious to see what their advances were Rekka: 43:31 and also, are they receiving royalties as most of their income? Are they receiving, I'm speaking fees as their income? Are they receiving, you know, dividends from investments that they made with a large advance that the advance went straight in and now they're being paid out on money market money. Kaelyn: 43:52 Exactly. Rekka: 43:52 So that's, um, you know, that's all very likely in many of those cases. Kaelyn: 43:59 Yeah. Okay. Well, um, yeah, thank you for listening. That was, you know, we know this was, this was a lot. Rekka: 44:04 Yeah, it was a heck of a lot. Kaelyn: 44:05 This was a lot. So, um, but you know, as always questions, comments... Rekka: 44:09 You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast. You can find our older episodes wmbcast.com. If you found this—we hope you found this—episode very helpful, and if you have a few of those magical gummy dollars to throw our way, we'd love your support patreon.com/WMBcast. If you are still waiting for those gummy dollars to come in, you can, uh, share the podcast with a friend who would find the information useful. Or you can leave us a rating and review on iTunes to help random strangers find us through searches. And we'll talk to you next time everyone. Kaelyn: 44:45 Thanks everyone. 44:45 Outtro Music

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! First episode of November and some of you are probably 1/6 of the way into NaNoWriMo.  If so, you no doubt know just significant your involvement in writing communities can be with help, support, and encouragement.  But writing communities aren’t just for when NaNoWriMo rolls around and no one knows that better than our guest on today’s podcast, Miri Baker.  We got to talk to Miri about her extensive history and experience in all kinds of groups and oh boy did she have some great stories!  Miri also offered us some sage wisdom for those looking to get more involved in their communities or even just find one to join.  You can (and should) check her on her socials, linked below. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and what your reactions and theories were when you first saw Azula at the end of Season One of Avatar. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Find Miri at: Twitter: @MiriBaker Website: https://miribaker.com         Kaelyn: 00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I am Kaelyn Considine and I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:09   And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn: 00:13   So a couple exciting things here. Let's do first and foremost. Rekka: 00:19   Yeah, I mean this is, this is a big day. We've been telling you that you about - Kaelyn: 00:22   This is a milestone. Rekka: 00:23   Yes, you can, you know, if you've been listening that we have been asking for support@patreon.com/WMBcast and someone's heard us. Kaelyn: 00:33   Someone's heard us. We have our first patron. Thank you so much to Robert McAdams. Rekka: 00:37   Our first patron, uh, who, you know, went online and found value in what we're giving out here on this show and the guidance and everything. And so it's just fantastic. Kaelyn: 00:48   Means a lot to us. Rekka: 00:49   It really does. So thank you. And, um, if you would like to join in and also participate in that support, you can go to patreon.com/WMBcast. Kaelyn: 00:58   Um, second exciting thing. We have a guest on this episode. Rekka: 01:01   We have kidnapped someone. Wait, no, the lawyers are telling me, I can't say we kidnapped somebody. Kaelyn: 01:04   She came here of her own will. Rekka: 01:06   She might've been coerced with pizza. Kaelyn: 01:08   And we did let her leave eventually. So I think essentially that doesn't really count. Rekka: 01:13   I mean we got gotta we got the airline in on our whole conspiracy to keep her longer. Kaelyn: 01:18   Miri had quite a hard time trying to get outta here. Rekka: 01:20   So there it is. Miri Baker is our guests today. Uh, this is a friend of mine that I met through Twitter. Um, and then we met in person, uh, about a year before this recording at um, world fantasy con in Baltimore. And we have just been peas in a pod since we started talking. And Miri is a fantastic person, a fantastic writer, fantastic cosplay costumer. Like there is no - Kaelyn: 01:47   Astounding. Rekka: 01:48   Miri is kind of like me and that like she will say, I want to topple that and then go topple it. And um, so Miri is just a fantastic human being and as happens with fantastic human beings, they make friends. And, um, so Miri is here to talk to us today about the writing community. Um, the different forms that can take Miri's experience with which extends over half her life. Kaelyn: 02:13   Yes. Um, you'll hear some stories in this episode. She has been not shy about getting involved in things right from the get go. Rekka: 02:20   Yeah. And, um, and the value that she finds in that, and I think it's important because, uh, writing tends to be a very solitary act, but I think we've talked about before in other episodes that you need support from the outside and there are different kinds of support and Miri talks about what they are and where she's found them and the recommendations and some tips and tricks from that. Kaelyn: 02:43   You know, um, it can be a little intimidating to uh, dip your toe in the water here and a Miri's got a lot of thoughts on why it shouldn't be. Rekka: 02:50   Absolutely. Kaelyn: 02:51   Even if you are still intimidated, some, uh, suggestions and advice for how to mitigate that. So, um, we had a really great time talking to Miri. We'll probably, definitely have her back again in the future. Rekka: 03:01   Almost certainly. Kaelyn: 03:03   Almost certainly. Rekka: 03:04   And yeah, Miri is just fantastic. And here comes the evidence Speaker 2:       03:15   [inaudible] Kaelyn: 03:24   There's going to be awesome, uh, a mulled, things to drink. Rekka: 03:29   There's a uh, oh, what do you call it? The thing that I have been doing and the word is not soaking. Kaelyn: 03:37   I mean, soaking is not wrong. Rekka: 03:41   It is literally technically correct. The best kind of correct. However, not the word I was looking for. Well, um, uh, an infused bourbon. Kaelyn: 03:48   Yes. Rekka: 03:49   And I basically took mulling spices and - Kaelyn: 03:51   I'm very excited. Rekka: 03:52   And it smells amazing. So, um, if you can't tell we were recording this on or close to Halloween. Kaelyn: 03:57   Yes. We're very excited about this. Miri:    03:59   A lifestyle. Rekka: 04:00   Yes. And so as we have, um, a company in one of these company happened to be another writer in my circle of writing know, know these peoples, yeah. Kaelyn: 04:11   I mean petition to officially change communities to Circle of Know These People's, Rekka: 04:16   I mean that's obviously going to be the episode title. Now we've hit it already. Miri:    04:19   Yes. Humans. I am also a people. Rekka: 04:22   So, um, why don't you introduce yourself, A People as you claim to be, and we'll get into actually doing this episode so we can get to actually eating all the food that we've just mentioned. Miri:    04:33   It's delicious, delicious food. Hello everyone. My name is Miri Baker. I write fantasy for adults and weird fantasy, paranormal, sometimes Gothic whatever nonsense for middle grades and young adult. And I am just about to be working on a middle-grade Gothic for one of my very favorite things of the year in National Novel Writing Month, which I'm sure no one on this program has ever heard of before. Rekka: 04:55   Definitely not. Kaelyn: 04:56   We didn't talk about this at length two weeks ago for sure. Miri:    05:00   So we wanted to talk about, um, sort of one of the side benefits of NaNoWriMo and um, lots of other venues of writing with other people. Speaker 1:       05:09   Yeah. We haven't actually said what we're talking about in this episode yet. Rekka: 05:13   It didn't people listen to the intro? Kaelyn: 05:13   Well, there's an intro, but I'm, you know. Rekka: 05:15   We always assume that they are all with it and together they're like obviously we were up all night talking and just chatting last night. So we can't make, do good words. Kaelyn: 05:25   We're talking about writing communities today. Rekka: 05:27   And Miri has fingers in many writing community pots. Miri:    05:30   Extensive interactions. Rekka: 05:33   Miri washes her hands by the way. Miri:    05:35   Yes, human I do wash my hands. Kaelyn: 05:37   Yeah. So, um, why don't you tell us a little bit about like some of the communities you're in an active in? Miri:    05:44   Yeah, so I've been involved in local and online NaNoWriMo communities since 2005. I have held regional in-person write-ins. I hold zoom, uh, online write-ins I'm participate in online Slack groups, uh, writing Twitter. We all know about writing Twitter. Kaelyn: 06:04   We do. Miri:    06:04   I have dug up coworkers in my tech organization who I found out also, write. And taking them out to cafes where we also write. Rekka: 06:10   Necromancy is going to be a theme, by the way, when she's digging up people like, let's just assume she means literally. Miri:    06:17   Look, there's a skeleton inside you right now that wants to be free. Let's see. I have attended the writing excuses retreat workshop. Which is held on a boat. And that means that you can't get away from your community unless you just go hide in one of the many wonderful looks on the ship. And I'm several online Slack groups, discords etc. Etc. Rekka: 06:36   So if there are people you will find them. Miri:    06:39   And dig them up. Rekka: 06:41   And dig them up [laughs] reanimate them if necessary. So start with like your first intro into, I think it is going to be the NaNoWriMo story or yeah, so the Kaelyn was excited for the story. So let's get - Kaelyn: 06:52   It's a good story. Rekka: 06:52   She twitching until you tell this story. So go ahead. Miri:    06:55   It even goes back a little bit further than we were talking about before the show. So I don't know if anyone remembers Gaia online, but there was a writers' forum on Gaia online and that's where I first found out about NaNoWriMo. I think it was June, 2005 something like that. And I had clicked over to the NaNoWriMo forums, reading the NaNo wisdoms thread, looking at all these hilarious mistakes people made and then posted to drag themselves. And I went to my mom and yes, I was 12 at the time, to level set, went my mom and said, "Mom, there are people on the internet and they write a book in a month and it sounds really cool and I want to do it." And her response as a good mother is like, "Yes sweetie, that sounds interesting. That could be fun." "And some of them meet up in our town and I want to go meet them." "I'm sorry you what?" And I distinctly remember forming this whole contract of all the chores I would do and all the good. I was already a good kid. Miri:    07:45   I didn't actually have a whole lot of leverage here to get my mom to take me to this in person, pre November meetup. And she finally agreed to, I found out later that she messaged our ML and said, Hey, my kid wants to come to this thing. It's not going to be a problem. Like I can tell her no, that's fine. And my ML said no, that's great. We'd love to meet her. That's, that'll be fun. So we go to this little coffee shop that we did not even know existed, uh, less than two miles from our house. And we're waiting in the parking lot because they're getting late opening and she's looking around looking for weird people and readers, she, she did find weird people, but she also found some - Kaelyn: 08:20   I'm sorry, from an internet group? Miri:    08:21   No! Um, but also just people getting someone from the local theater group that she knew and it's like, Oh, Pam, uh, I didn't know you wrote. And she's like, Oh, I do. I do. I write. And she did a little bit. And by the end of that first meetup, we had convinced my mother to do NaNoWriMo and then we slowly convinced the rest of my family to do NaNoWriMo and hosted regional meetups at our house. And now we have both been doing and winning NaNoWriMo for 15 years, and neither of us can blink first.   Kaelyn: 08:53   So, all right, who is going to give up first eventually down the line? Miri:    08:59   Oh. Oh. I don't want to think about that. Kaelyn: 09:03   All right, well keep us posted every year. We're going to check in. Miri:    09:06   Sounds good. I, to be fair, I'm the person whose life is going to go through more stage changes between now and whenever. So it's likely to be me, but I'm going to put that one off as long as possible. Kaelyn: 09:19   Alright. Rekka: 09:19   Refuse to believe. Miri:    09:20   Yeah. Kaelyn: 09:22   So, um, you've been active in writing communities, this kind of thing for over half of your life. Miri:    09:28   Yes. Kaelyn: 09:29   That's, that's a lot. So no, but like you keep going back to it. So obviously it's something that's really important in, you know, your writing and your career as a writer. So, but it's also time consuming. Miri:    09:43   Yes. Rekka: 09:44   But still important. So can you talk about that, like what it is that makes you still take the time to do all of these things? Miri:    09:52   Yeah, I think a lot of it does go back to that first nano group. I was, I was 12, I was the only person younger than 21 in that group. And it was the first time I felt like I'm having a conversation with a bunch of adults as a peer, we're all in this thing together. I can contribute, we can all have these shared jokes and kind of build that relationship. And there's something about writing communities where you don't quite have to do small talk in the same way. You can just skip straight to what are you working on, what are you writing? And you learn so much more interesting stuff about somebody in a very short time when they're answering that question. So it's sort of a fast track to friendship has been my experience with it. And after that you have this, this group of people who understand something that's actually very weird in the grand scheme of things that humans spend their time on a, it's like, Oh, I'm making up stories, but it's, it's being made up wrong. How do I deal with this? Um, and just that level of understanding of listening, of getting to know people on this very kind of deep level almost immediately is something that I've sort of been chasing the highest I've ever since. Kaelyn: 11:02   Okay. Rekka: 11:03   So you've chased it into many directions. You manage to be a participant in all of these almost simultaneously with the exception of Writing Excuses cruise. Because what will, with the exception of the Writing Excuses Retreat, because you're on a cruise ship with terrible wifi, so you can't participate in all the others at the same time. But um, all those things you listed, like you, you have an ongoing relationship with all those communities pretty much throughout the year, even if they are time basedevents. So why so many, I mean semper majus but you know like why, what do you get out of each one? Like are there different aspects that you're getting or some of them more for professional advice are some of them more for like bonding, friendships, emotional support. Like - Kaelyn: 11:56   Yeah. Rekka: 11:56   I'm listing things that I know are part of community. Um, I'm leading the witness. But yeah, like talk about like why so many groups and like could you give up one, I mean like, could you pick a favorite? You know, stuff like that. Miri:    12:09   Yeah. It's interesting cause I don't think I've ever thought about specifically what I'm getting from each one that's different. But there definitely are things. Obviously writing Twitter is a little bit more of a shout into the world brand building, sort of - Rekka: 12:22   If we scream into the void together, we're not alone. Miri:    12:24   Exactly. Yeah. Um, why didn't that, um, the ability to passively keep up with what's going on or what's not going on? Kind of pick up all the pieces there. Uh, and that is, you know, where some of my deeper relationships have formed. For example, I just kind of showed up in Rekka's DMS one day. Kaelyn: 12:44   This is true. Miri:    12:44   But I definitely see Twitter as a place where relationships start, but it's a little bit harder for them to deepen. And then I've got Slack communities where depending on the makeup of the Slack community, it could be more professional advice oriented or more emotional support oriented or just everybody key smashing in a very collective supportive way, which is an underrated form of community I find. And then in the Writing Excuses Cruise, the part of that that's really good is that you are spending, you know, 24 hours a day minus whenever you turn into a pumpkin and hide under a tablecloth somewhere with these people. So you form those much deeper relationships very quickly. And then that alumni group is much more close to knit in a shorter time and continues to do in person meetups at conventions or digital write-ins and Hangouts throughout the year. So there's a slightly different tone, like I'm more likely to know that someone I've met in person has kids for example, which is something that might not come up on the internet. And that just gives me something else to talk about. Another point of experience that, that they're drawing on that I can draw on too. Rekka: 13:50   So as being part of all these online communities, then you can take this into this one space that we left off that initial list I think, but we did talk about before we were, I'm planning the episode is now you can go to a writing conference and what does that do and like how does that defer or how was that built in? Miri:    14:10   Yeah, it's, it's been a really important part of definitely feeling the community and being able to talk to people. I know humans bad. Yes, human. I'm also a human, but my first conference, for example, world con San Jose, I would not have gone to if I didn't know someone who was going to be there and who told me, Hey, I have an extra spot in my hotel room. Kaelyn: 14:31   So wait, your first conference was Worldcon San Jose? Miri:    14:34   Writing conference, yeah. Kaelyn: 14:34   Writing conference, that's like, that's a dive into the deep end. Miri:    14:38   My first convention at all was DragonCon. Rekka: 14:41   Yeah. It was just, for Miri, that was walking backwards. Miri:    14:46   Yeah. So someone invited me into their room, which meant if all else failed, I had friend or at least one place to go hide. And then of course there were other people in the room and I got to know them and they were awesome and I was invited along to dinner where we're meeting even more people or I'm introducing, Oh Hey, there's this person that I met on writing excuses is going to be here. Anybody want to come out for ice cream with us? And just sort of forming those natural connections. And it's really easy to think like, yes, I will learn my way into the hotel room with the fancy people. And that's, that's, that's, that's just so much energy y'all, that's not an efficient way to go about it. In addition to the other obvious problems but - Rekka: 15:28   Also slimy. Miri:    15:30   But also there's the, I'm in person, I can present myself in a more immediate way than I can online. Like I can have all of the goth paraphernalia on my personal profiles as I want, but if I'm just out on Twitter, that doesn't always come through. Whereas one of my actually local writer friendships I made at a conference because I was wearing some kind of nonsensical doc Martins and another wonderful writer was also wearing kind of nonsensical doc Martins and we are now bonded for life. Kaelyn: 16:01   I think that's definitely how that, yeah. Rekka: 16:03   Yeah. I've had a lot of people approach me at conferences because of the earrings I'm wearing and they just, I don't know if it's really that they see the earrings and they have to go talk to the person who wears those earrings. But it definitely gives you like, like I can talk to you about something. Kaelyn: 16:16   Yeah. Rekka: 16:17   When you have in your, when your brand is out there and you're, you know, displaying something that is interesting in some way. But then also, yeah, you find other people who know exactly. You know what you're about when you're wearing them and then they just walk up to you and they don't even have to say anything. They just, you know, this person can stick their, their foot out and you see the shoes and you're like, all right, cool. Kaelyn: 16:37   Yes. Rekka: 16:38   So I'll see you. Yes. Miri:    16:39   My people. Rekka: 16:40   We are - Kaelyn: 16:40   I found my clan. Rekka: 16:41   Yes. So, so aside from, um, having someone to go have ice cream with, you know, like what, where do those relationships go after the conference is over? Miri:    16:53   I think I'm still in a phase of figuring that out, but there's definitely sticking around on Twitter, being able to engage in more conversations, generally knowing more of what's going on because I know more people who know what's going on.uh, there is always so much going on and I've, I mean, if we want to go super transactional, whether it's like I met this person who introduced me to these people who introduced me to this community and I can just trace this back to that one hotel room in San Jose. Kaelyn: 17:20   Well, that's, I mean, and we've talked about this previously on this. There's, I think there's like this weird guilt of like showing up to conferences and with this idea of like, I'm not just here to network, but it is okay to go to conferences and meet people that you're hoping to work with or to develop a professional relationship with in the future. And you know, conferences are a great place to do that. Rekka: 17:41   Yeah. I mean Miri used the word transactional, like yeah, if you go in with the attitude of what can you give me in exchange what I can give you, then your networking is not going to grow organically in the way that you're describing. Um, you are going to have to claw and fight for every business card that you get because you're going to be putting off that like used car salesman vibe that everyone in the room can smell. Miri:    18:07   Um, yes - Kaelyn: 18:08   It's smells like weird cologne and plasticky suits. Rekka: 18:11   Yeah. And that new car smell, air freshener, that does not smell like new car. Um, but when you go in and sincerely and then you have a great conversation and you realize like, Oh, I need, I want to go attend this programming for example, then it's okay, do you have a card? Because like I am desperate not to like lose this connection that we just made as opposed to like whipping out the card before you even get your name pronounced all the way. Like I guess that's where you visually, that's the definition of transactional for me. It's like, I'm, I'm here to give you my card. If you've ever been to a, um, a trade show that's, uh, like, uh, electronics trade show or security trade show or all this kind of stuff that I've attended where people leap out into though aisles to scan your badge, that is the like extreme end. But that's kind of what that feels like. Where someone's looking like, I know what book you wrote, I'm going to talk to you. Do you know an agent for me? I'm like - Kaelyn: 19:11   No, that's, yeah. Kaelyn: 19:12   Yeah. Kaelyn: 19:13   But other good communities. Rekka: 19:14   So yeah, we have, we have to touch on how to be the good community. Kaelyn: 19:19   You know what, and that's actually, you know, a thing too that we can talk about too is bad community participants and people who maybe aren't improving the community by their presence. It's a thing that happens. Miri:    19:36   It is. Kaelyn: 19:37   And it's something that, you know, you don't want to be that one in the community. Um, so you know, in your experience, because you're in a lot of these communities, what would you say, like how should you come to the table and what should you not bring to the table in terms of expectations and why you're there and behavior and behavior? Miri:    20:00   So there are two sides of this. I think the obvious one is don't be a jerk. Well that, I mean rule number one, right? But there's the specific implications of that here are don't only show up when there's something out there for you. Like it's very easy to tell when somebody is only in a community for the perks or maybe advanced reading copies of something show up occasionally or maybe, Hey, there's this cool opportunity that I'm extending to you, my community first. If somebody only shows up in those moments, you're like, all right, okay. Um, and then if, if they don't show up in the times when other people in the need them or want their input or just want that connection. Um, the other side of it is, and this is more of a, I guess like caution, I would warn against showing up only to be helpful and only two be seen being helpful only to be seen being helpful only to hope that you can give enough and do enough that the important people in the community will notice you and you can, you can do a lot of genuinely helpful things under that motivation and you can feel very good about it for a little while, but it'll just never end up being enough. Miri:    21:29   So there's the side of this that's, you know, try not to engage in a community just because of the fancy people or whatever you think you can get out of it, but also don't completely discount your own wants and needs as part of being part of that community. Kaelyn: 21:42   That's a good thing you brought up. You know, an interesting thing is the power dynamic of like the important people in the community. There are going to be important people in any community you go into. Miri:    21:52   There always are. Miri:    21:54   And I think some people, you're right, we'll come in with a need to ingratiate themselves to said group, but you know, at the end of the day you still are in this community for a reason. And do you need to get something out of it as well? Rekka: 22:07   I do see, um, for instance like between the three Nebulas that I've gone to, there are obvious like high school reunion feelings from a lot of - Kaelyn: 22:20   Oh absolutely. Rekka: 22:21   Family reunion, like in a positive way. I know like some people go, Oh, high school reunion. I mean like the positive aspects where you get to see someone that you only see on these occasions because we are spread out all over the place online. So, um, you knew if you go and you are not creating relationships that the next time you see that person, their face is going to light up to see you, like maybe rethink your approach. Miri:    22:46   You're, you're missing an opportunity. You're missing the key opportunity of these impersonal events and they're not for everyone. They're expensive there. There are lots of reasons to not engage, but if you are engaging, take advantage of that. Rekka: 23:00   Yeah. And people will want to help you and you know, you will, you will go to them like you go to friends because they are your friends now you know when you need support and it's not in the like, you know, Hey, I, you know, where you have to add, like we'll pay a fee in the same statement because you're looking for help and nobody knows who you are. Miri:    23:18   Yeah. Rekka: 23:18   You know, like if you just, you go into these communities and like just let yourself fall all the way on like memory foam, you know, like these, I mean then maybe that's a better analogy than I meant. Um, you know. Kaelyn: 23:32   It's got layers. I like that. Rekka: 23:34   Well it's got layers. So the community remembers you as long as you keep showing up to leave your impression. Kaelyn: 23:40   Yes. Rekka: 23:41   Leave a good impressio, a healthy impression. Be a good human if you are a human. Miri:    23:45   Yes, human. Kaelyn: 23:47   So, you know, the conferences, aside conferences are a once a year thing, you know, you go there, great. You meet people, you see people you don't always get to see, but then you're done and you leave. What you're actually using and interacting with more are your online writing communities. So when you're having a problem, when you're, you know, stuck on something, you're feeling unmotivated, that's who you're going to go to. So do you have like an example or a story you can tell us about? Like, you know, something you, one of your communities, your writing communities has helped you work through. Miri:    24:20   Yeah. I, I think recently I've been a little bit more on the rah, rah, you can do it side because what's better when you're feeling unmotivated than to try and motivate someone else? Um, this is how we create value, right? But I definitely had a book that I've since put aside for a little while that was just kicking my ass for about three years. And I had friends who had been my friends through all of that time or who came in midstream and went, Oh wow, you've been kind of working on this for awhile. And I don't even remember a specific time, but just being able to pop up in one of the channels and say like, Hey, I'm really feeling it today. Miri:    24:52   Like I want to be writing and I'm just not, and it's terrible. And having a bunch of people not necessarily go the shallow like, Oh no, you can do it. But like, yup. Sucks. I understand. Just the like onslot of we see you, we hear you, we've been through it. Um, and since we've been through it, you can see what it looks like to get through it to the other side. It's just the constant parade of examples of all of us on this wacky sign wave of I'm the best writer ever. No wait, I'm the worst writer ever. Kaelyn: 25:26   Are you implying that writers have emotions that fluctuate quite a bit? Because I've never encountered it. Rekka: 25:35   And you remind me that uh, there's that phrase like you are, you're comparing your rehearsal to someone else's, like - Miri:    25:43   Performance. Rekka: 25:44   Performance and stuff like that. Miri:    25:45   And when you're in this community to that level, like you get to see other people's rehearsals as well. And it kind of helps, you know, it's like, Oh, if the person who wrote my no favorite and novella of 2017 is just sitting here key smashing about how words are hard, yo, then maybe I'm okay, maybe it's fine. Well it's, if I got, never underestimate the power of just a repeated, sustained stream of cat gif. Kaelyn: 26:11   Okay. Rekka: 26:12   Distraction when you need it. Miri:    26:13   Yeah. Yeah. Rekka: 26:14   Cuteness when you need it. Warm fuzzy thoughts and you know, taking torches to the brain weasles. Miri:    26:20   Yep. And then also like you, you mentioned a little bit earlier, just like people who know what's going on. Miri:    26:26   And sometimes you think you are in a struggle completely alone that might be like related to the business of the industry itself. And you go to your community and find out like, Oh no, I am not the only one going through this. And that other person that you find going through this realizes, Oh, I'm not the only one going this. And then you can all join hands and care, bear stare at something and fix it. Kaelyn: 26:47   So, you know, along those lines of people realizing they're not the only ones going through something, someone who's maybe like looking are interested in getting involved in writing communities. What do you suggest? What do you recommend going about doing this? Where do you start looking for the, for the community that's right for you? Miri:    27:06   Yeah. It's a hard question because a lot of what we've been saying is, Oh, just go make friends and I know I have to go straight to the inner sanctum. Yeah. And especially I was just out of college, you know, doing that. Oh gosh, how do I make friends as an adult thing? It was like, yes, I will just pick friends from the friend tree. That sounds reasonable. Rekka: 27:24   Um, well maybe I think Old Navy has seasonal sales on friends. Miri:    27:28   Yeah, I think so. The buy one get one is the deal you want to wait for. Rekka: 27:30   Yep. Miri:    27:31   But I think it starts from whatever platforms you're most comfortable interacting on or most familiar with. Kaelyn: 27:39   Okay. Miri:    27:40   And because then you sort of don't have to take on the burden of learning. Um, for example, Twitter. Twitter is an acquired language and it's an acquired language that varies by community and there is a lot to be said for working and learning the norms before you're trying to I guess, speak that language. So I was, I was a longtime lurker on Twitter before I showed up in Rekka's DMs. Um, so it, it can be, it can be very slow. Uh, if you can just go to an event and meet people in person, uh, not everyone can again, for many reasons, but that tends to be the fast track. Rekka: 28:18   But that's sort of like starting from the outside and working your way in. Another way to do that with far less costs would be like to start at the NaNoWriMo forums. Miri:    28:25   Yes. Rekka: 28:26   Because that is expected that strangers will show up and start talking to them, um, as opposed to like suddenly finding access to someone's private Slack group showing up one day and everyone goes how did this person get here? Do I know this person? And even, and even that, if you're starting from nothing, it's even hard to do that. Kaelyn: 28:46   Yeah. Miri:    28:47   The NaNoWriMo forums are great for that there where I spent a lot of time between ages 12 and 18 and look in the other places that you already are. Cause there might be a writer there. There's, there probably is. We're there . Rekka: 29:01   You mentioned coworkers - Kaelyn: 29:02   They're pretty, pretty prolific, you guys are popping up in weird places that I'm - Miri:    29:09   Like daisies. Kaelyn: 29:10   I am very surprised in talking to people as soon as I mention anything about like I work in publishing either, Oh I've written something or I know someone who's written something. There's, there's a lot of, and I feel like there that a lot of isolated writers who just kind of write at home like, Hey, if that's, you know, if that's what works for you, that's great. But to any isolated writers that may be listening to this, there are groups of you, what do we call a group of writers? A Confusion? Miri:    29:38   A Murder. I've used flock a few times. Kaelyn: 29:43   A Complication of writers. Rekka: 29:46   An Anxiety of Writers. Miri:    29:47   Oooooooh. Kaelyn: 29:48   An Anxiety. Yeah. Nailed it. That's it. Miri:    29:51   That's it Kaelyn: 29:51   Yes. So, um, there are Anixieties of Writers. Miri:    29:55   So many. Kaelyn: 29:57   Out in the wild. Rekka: 30:01   I feel like I've reached my peak self. Kaelyn: 30:04   Nope, Rekka's we can just stop the podcast. It's not this, thank you everyone. This has been wonderful, but it's not going to get better than that, so we're just going to leave. Miri:    30:12   We're going to be very nervous about it. Kaelyn: 30:15   Um, but yeah, there, there are so many, like writers are everywhere. Um, go find them. Miri:    30:21   Yeah. I like take my mom as an example. Her writing community came from her kid wanting to do NaNoWriMo. Kaelyn: 30:28   And she stumbled into it. Miri:    30:30   Um, I, I didn't find out until that point that my nap time when I was little, which had gone on weirdly long and turned into my, just go to your room and be quiet and read time was my mom's writing time. I just never knew. It never came up. And I definitely consider myself really lucky to have stumbled across the NaNoWriMo forums because that was that first community that was the people who treated me like adults. That was the people who showed me that, Oh, it's, it's not just me because I was the weird kid. I think writing is a large collective of the weird kids because you, you stick with the imaginary friends thing way longer than is socially acceptable. And from having that community and feeling that I started plucking other isolated writers that I noticed out of my high school, out of my tech job, out of my college. Anyone I talked to, if you've ever met me ever on the street, if it's been more than 20 minutes, you've probably heard about writing, you've probably heard about NaNoWriMo. Just because going from going from nothing to something is such a big jump that it doesn't even necessarily matter what that something is. Miri:    31:41   Um, going back to using the communities you're already part of, maybe they're totally different. I used to be very involved in the Avatar, The Last Airbender fan community back in the 10 months. Kaelyn: 31:47   A worthy pursuit of your time. Miri:    31:49   Such a good community. Kaelyn: 31:50   We're going to talk about that later. Miri:    31:52   I was so excited in the 10 months between seasons one and two, mind you, we had just seen a Azula's face for the first time and we didn't know who she was. It was great. And I was on this theories forum and saw somebody else's forum, a signature who had never talked to that said writing a novel back in December and I'm like, aha, I see you. I have found one and I sent her a private message and you know, we're both like 13 flooding into the DM, sliding into the DMS before it was cool. We're both 13 - Kaelyn: 32:23   Or before it existed. Miri:    32:24   Yeah. We eventually convinced our parents to let us talk on the phone and then we both convinced our parents to take us to DragonCon that year, which I'm still not very clear on - Kaelyn: 32:34   You have really cool parents. Miri:    32:36   I have pretty cool parents. Yes. My name is Miri Baker. I am literally named after the Star Trek character, literally. Kaelyn: 32:43   All right. Yup. Miri:    32:44   Okay. I'm still not clear on how the dragon con thing happened because my parents are cool, but they're also very introverted and now my family has visited her family on vacation. Our moms went to New York city together for their 50th birthday. Kaelyn: 32:58   That is so sweet. Miri:    32:59   Like she's going to be in my ways and it was just me going, I know what this person is talking about. Rekka: 33:07   But that speaks to the depth that you get to with these communities if you do them sincerely. Miri:    33:11   Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing, if you're, if you're in these other communities like maybe you're really interested in, I don't know, model rockets, I guarantee you there's someone in that model rocket community who writes science fiction. Rekka: 33:23   Yeah. Miri:    33:24   Or romance. And even if you're not the person who's going to slide into a stranger's DMS, just signal. Speaker 1:       33:31   Yeah. Miri:    33:31   Do the internet version of wearing pins on your jacket though. Kaelyn: 33:34   It's funny cause I always think there should be something you can just like put - Kaelyn: 33:38   Yeah, just be like I write things, somebody, if anyone wants to talk to me about it. Miri:    33:44   There's a standard emoji lower left fountain pen that I've found to be very useful for that. Kaelyn: 33:49   That's yeah, we should make that a thing. If you're involved in writing, that can be your little signal. Miri:    33:54   It's a thing now. Kaelyn: 33:56   And a something next to it that's like and yes, please talk to me about it. Rekka: 34:01   Like green checkmark, smiley face. Kaelyn: 34:03   I am open to conversation. Rekka: 34:05   So what happens if you can't find a community like you are seeking and you do not uncover groups in your area or you do not uncover forums that it feel welcoming to you? Miri:    34:17   Uh, you start your own. Um, because I was the only child in my, in my NaNoWriMo group, I just started talking about it at school and I was in middle school or don't, don't be a middle schooler. That's my advice. Rekka: 34:33   Yeah, skip that entirely. Miri:    34:35   Don't, don't be in middle school. But it was weird enough and different enough that people would notice like, Oh Miri has an awful lot of colors of ink on the right side of her right hand this month. And sometimes people will ask, sometimes you get to be that person who's like, look what I am doing. If your place of employment has any kind of social channels or listservs. Rekka: 34:57   A bulletin board made of cork. Miri:    34:59   A bulletin board made of cork. Kaelyn: 35:01   A yes, an actual bulletin board. Miri:    35:03   A thing that humans used. Rekka: 35:05   I just want to be clear, I'm not talking about internet bulletin board. Miri:    35:08   Yeah. Physical place bulletin boards. I've had success just sending out messages into those voids? Not quite voids of Hey there's this thing, it's NaNoWriMo or I will be, I will be writing at this cafe at this time. I would love for you to join me. Miri:    35:28   Yup. And creating that place where people can come if they want to and you'll still be there doing your thing if they don't. I really enjoy that because if I am in charge of planning something I lose hours of sleep over it. It could be an act of God and Oh no, there was an earthquake, nobody had fun and it's all my fault. But if I'm doing something anyway and I can say I am doing this, I have done all the work of planning it, it is very low key. I would love for you to join me. That creates a very easy space for somebody who's isolated or hasn't even really jumped in, has just thought maybe I would write something that's something I could do to show up and bam. You have ducklings? Rekka: 36:11   Yes. Kaelyn: 36:11   Gooslings? Miri:    36:12   HONK! Kaelyn: 36:12   Ah, okay. Yup. Rekka: 36:15   The zeitgeist is strong in this podcast - Miri:    36:17   I was wearing my honkus ponkus shirt. Rekka: 36:18   In three years, will anyone know what that meant? Kaelyn: 36:21   Does it matter? Miri:    36:23   We don't. We are all the goose. Rekka: 36:23   We don't want that negativity in our future. Miri:    36:25   The goose without a name. Kaelyn: 36:26   Yes. Miri:    36:27   A goose has no title. Rekka: 36:28   So before we wrap up, what are favorite things about the writing community? Miri:    36:33   My favorite part. Uh, the thing that really makes it worthwhile to being in these communities and make these connections is being able to see and genuinely celebrate the successes of our peers. And they don't have to be these huge successes of, Oh, I got this massive book deal, or Oh, I've landed my dream agent. Sometimes the success, and especially if you're this isolated writer kind of doing your own thing in the corner. Sometimes the success is, I wrote a sentence today and it that she's laughing, but this is so true. Speaker 1:       37:06   Yeah, no, no, I get it because sometimes my successes are, I edited a sentence today. Rekka: 37:11   All right, we're all on the same page. Kaelyn: 37:13   There's the occasional one that gets very tricky and - Miri:    37:17   Okay, from the outside that doesn't seem like a success. So why would you celebrate it? But in these communities, if you're saying maybe people you look up to or people you would just never seen that side of go, I wrote a sentence today and it was the hardest thing I've ever done and everybody cheers and you understand that, Oh wait one, we're, we're just writers or I'll just writers here and two - Rekka: 37:39   Human writers. Miri:    37:39   Human writers, definitely human writers. Kaelyn: 37:41   Carbon-based for sure. Miri:    37:43   And two: maybe I've been comparing my day to day trying to write, trying to do whatever to everybody else's curated social network. These are the highlights of my life moments. Whereas within the community you see other people's normal carbon-based human life moments and being able to celebrate your friends successes and even celebrate, you know, your friends huge successes. Rekka: 38:15   Yeah. Miri:    38:15   Without just wanting to be seen, celebrating them. And it builds that sense of - Rekka: 38:21   A Slack chat full of high fives. Miri:    38:22   It's a slack chat full of high fives, right. Or just, you know, ta-da emoji or whatever it is. Um, it really does feel like that that group coming together and just being happy for each other. [inaudible] and I feel like that's something we could, we could all stand to do more of it. Kaelyn: 38:43   Yes. Rekka: 38:43   Yes. So I like on that note, we do have a party to get to. Kaelyn: 38:48   Yes. Kaelyn: 38:49   Yeah. So it's, Oh, any last thoughts closing things that one piece of advice that you would give anyone looking to join a writing community? Let's, let's go with that. Miri:    38:59   Ooh, just one. Kaelyn: 39:00   Just one. If you could only - Rekka: 39:01   Wear skeleton doc Martens. Miri:    39:02   Absolutely. Kaelyn: 39:03   If you could only offer one piece of advice. Miri:    39:06   One piece of advice, if you're looking to join a writing community, be both open to getting involved in anything that you may see at the edges of your existing communities. Be it a link that somebody sent you or that the one weird cousin posted on Facebook. Just be looking. And at the same time as you're looking, find a way that feels natural to you to signal that you would like to be involved. And that lets other people like me who will slide into your DMS a have that hook to pull you in. Kaelyn: 39:36   Miri is actively recruiting. Miri:    39:39   Constantly, always. Kaelyn: 39:42   So, okay, well thanks so much for talking to us. Miri:    39:46   Oh, thank you. Kaelyn: 39:48   There's a, there's a party to get to and there's couple pumpkin's that need to be carved. Rekka: 39:51   Before we get to the mulled bourbon, um, where can people find you online? Miri:    39:55   Yeah, you can find me, well, uh, since we have established that I apparently every writing community elemental, uh, the most reliable way is going to be @MiriBaker on Twitter. I also have a website MiriBaker.com that currently just redirect to @MiriBaker on Twitter and I appear occasionally in the NaNoWriMo forums as MiriMirror, which was a very funny Snow White joke when I made the account in 2005. Rekka: 40:20   Sure. It's still very fun to - Kaelyn: 40:22   It holds up. Miri:    40:22   Yeah. Thank you. Kaelyn: 40:23   Yeah. Well thank you so much again and um, we'll see everyone in two weeks. Kaelyn: 40:28   Absolutely. Kaelyn: 40:29   Thank you all. Kaelyn: 40:31   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember, you can find us on Twitter @WMBcast, same for Instagram or WMBcast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.