Podcast appearances and mentions of caitlin mcdonald

We speak with Caitlin McDonald, a Licensed Medical Mental Health Counselor and Qualified Supervisor Mental Health Counselor Interns. We discuss tips for families to aid children and adults in mental health techniques to help calm and have comfortable discussions before seeking professional help. She also coordinates efforts in the Chill Program focusing on Family Fun Nights to help assist families for free! This conversation also establishes tips for getting into the mental health field and how you can start your own private practice and keep in mind these same tips will also help entrepreneurs in establishing their own business. Black Men Sundays is ranked #20 of the top 80 Black Wealth Podcasts on https://podcasts.feedspot.com/black_wealth_and_investing_podcasts/

The votes are in! Science Fiction, Fantasy, Speculative & Supernatural won—and we've built this panel to that theme. But even if you're writing serious nonfiction, or in a completely other genre, this is a great view into what agents love within genres—and how agenting, in general, works. With Q&A, trivia, live #MSWL and a class on dialogue, this is a fun event we're thrilled to share. Want YOUR genre to be the theme for our next panel? Vote here!https://manuscriptacademy.com/mswl-live Prefer to watch the video version? Check it out here! https://manuscriptacademy.com/mswl-live-sff Today's episode includes (in order of appearance): *Caitlin McDonald, agent at Donald Maass Literary, with a SF/F Trivia Quiz *Samantha Wekstein, agent at Thompson Liteary, with a query critique *Thao Le, agent at Sandra Dijkstra Literary Agency, with a visual #MSWL (check the video version!) presentation *Taj McCoy, agent at Rees Literary, with a class (slides in the video version!) on dialogue Today's event was filmed in front of our Manuscript Academy members. Want to be there live next time? Join us! Learn more here: https://manuscriptacademy.com/membership

Find out more on our website: https://bit.ly/3HDcxmr A global debate is in full swing about when and where we should work and it's playing out in organisations of all sizes across the world. Who has the power to decide? Who wins and who loses out in different time / space configurations? Why do we work like this anyway? In the rapid move to remote working companies have largely done a "lift and shift" of work practices according to what we have historically considered to be necessarily same time/same place work. The result is overburdened diaries, endless meetings, cognitive overload and no time in which to actually complete our work. Based on extensive, hands-on research into the implications of new trends in collaborative working practices, this webinar explores how we can radically rethink the most precious resource any of us have - our time - in order to make space for the most value-adding work to get done. Speaker: Victoria Ward works as a coach, strategic adviser, convenor for, and companion to those who seek to create lasting change, in themselves, in their teams and networks, in the organisation as a whole, or in the system in which the organisation plays a part. She left NatWest in 1997 to set up a radical new multi-disciplinary practice, specialising in knowledge, narrative, knowledge networks and cultural transformation. Before acting as Chief Knowledge Officer at NatWest Markets, Victoria acted as Chief Operating Officer, Capital Markets, and Managing Director, Global Futures. She joined NatWest from the London International Futures Exchange working as head of R&D, education and statistics, as well as working with Exchange members, and with regulators internationally to change the tax and regulatory regime for index futures and options, and, among other things, to provide a robust response to regulatory enquiry into the role of index futures and options in the market crash of 1987. A 20+ year portfolio includes work in the public, private, not for profit and cultural sectors, with development banks and agencies, financial institutions, government agencies and departments, regulators, international manufacturing and pharmaceutical companies, academic institutions and museums. Victoria is internationally recognised as being at the forward edge of thinking and practice in knowledge management, communities of practice, narrative research, technology-enabled collaborative and storytelling approaches to complex organisational challenges and transformation. Dr Caitlin McDonald is the DXC's resident Digital Anthropologist. She helps business leaders and teams learn to step outside their version of ‘normal,' suspend judgement, and consider things from many different perspectives. This gives businesses the leading edge through boosting customer empathy, finding new solutions to old problems, and enriching the insight power of big data through multidisciplinary approaches. Recognised for her domain knowledge in qualitative methods like ethnography and participant-observation, Caitlin spent six years at the quantitative coal face developing analytical models and designing dashboards for the world's largest collaboration and talent network for education professionals. Before that Caitlin earned her PhD following dancers around the world and across the internet, understanding how information flows for cultural bodies of knowledge like dance are impacted by technoscapes (the digital world around us.) Her combined expertise gives her a uniquely balanced perspective for gleaning wisdom from the intersection between human imagination and digital systems.

Most speculative fiction takes place in a society that has a government of some kind. But what, exactly is a state? And how does it come to be? C.L. Polk joins us to discuss the making and breaking of nations within your fantasy worlds. From farmboy kings to scheming dukes with surprisingly benevolent control of their printing presses, from the trials and tribulations of parliaments to the somewhat horrifying implications of magical lobbyists, we hope that you'll find ideas in here to help you craft a government to your preferred level of wonkiness. Transcript for Episode 58 (with thanks to our lovely scribes!) Our Guest: C. L. Polk (they/them) is the author of the World Fantasy Award winning novel Witchmark, the first novel of the Kingston Cycle. Their newest novel, The Midnight Bargain, was a finalist in the CBC Canada Reads Competition, and was nominated for the Nebula, FIYAH Ignyte, and World Fantasy Awards. After leaving high school early, they have worked as a film extra, sold vegetables on the street, and identified exotic insect species for a vast collection of lepidoptera before settling down to write fantasy novels. Mx. Polk lives near the Bow River in the traditional territories of the Blackfoot Confederacy (Siksika, Kainai, Piikani), the Tsuut'ina, the Îyâxe Nakoda Nations, and the Métis Nation (Region 3). They keep all their stuff in a tiny apartment with too many books and a yarn stash that could last a decade. They ride a green bicycle with a basket on the front. They drink good coffee because life is too short. They spend too much time on twitter. You can subscribe to their free newsletter on TinyLetter, or subscribe to their Patreon for content writing nerds like. Mx. Polk is represented by Caitlin McDonald of the Donald Maass Literary Agency.

Rich Gall (@richggall) and Jennifer Riggins (@jkriggins) talk with digital anthropologist Caitlin McDonald about what it means to be a digital anthropologist and why it matters in helping us to understand the way we build and use technology today. Caitlin begins by talking through how her work intersects with questions of agency and digital literacy, providing some useful context on how perceptions and understanding about what techbology does and how it's made can have an impact on the way it influences our lives. She also explains why there's a growing need for anthropological thinking in the tech industry, and why businesses and governments are starting to see the value in the disciplines specific ways of thinking about culture and communication. She also talks about digital anthropology in the context of the emerging conversation around ethics, and how changes in legislation and compliance rules is increasing demand for work that can help companies tackle these issues head on.We also discuss ethnography, and compare it to quantitative research. Caitlin notes that there's an emerging scepticism of quantitative methods and its ability to deliver value. Finally, we talk about Caitlin's work outside of digital anthropology, such as her work as a coach and her personal technology projects.  She emphasises the value of having a space to adopt a more playful and less productive approach to technology and to "reconnect with technical skills in a low-stakes way."Follow Caitlin MacDonald on Twitter: @cmcd_phdExplore Caitlin's techy projectsLearn more about EPIC and ethnography in industryLearn more about Microsoft's ethics game, Judgment CallRead Tricia Wang's Why Big Data Needs Thick Data

On this special edition of the Futurum Tech Podcast - Interview Series, host Daniel Newman welcomed Richard Davies, Vice President at DXC Technology and Managing Director of Leading Edge Forum and Caitlin McDonald, Digital Anthropologist at Leading Edge Forum. Richard and Caitlin discussed findings from a recent report from LEF and the accelerated digital transformation that's happening due to COVID-19.   Reconfiguring the Collaborative Workspace   Even before the pandemic we were seeing a massive shift in the way that people are working. Caitlin and Richard shared insights from The Leading Edge Forum's latest research “Reconfiguring the Collaborative Workspace,” a study that was done over the last few years with insights from a variety of companies in a variety of industries.   It's clear that there is an increasing ubiquity and reliability of collaborative technologies like Slack, Zoom, and shared cloud etc. All of these things were coming together to enable businesses of any size and in any field to think about how they could change the way that people work whether that's flexible hours or a distributed team across the globe. The office has become less of a hub.   Now, 30 percent of the earth's population is under some sort of shelter-in-place order so this shift in how we work is massively accelerated. We are looking at a new collaborative workspace.   The Technology Matters   Beyond the way that people were working, where they worked, the kinds of work they were doing one key finding from the report is all about how important the right equipment is. If there's a barrier to communication because of the technology, you as a person perceive it as a barrier to your interpersonal communication which can be difficult to overcome in this new work environment.   Caitlin shared that employees don't complain about wanting the new hot technology. They complain about coworkers not being able to hear them or not being able to understand them. You can't expect effective collaboration if the tools that are in place hinder it. Companies need to invest in technology solutions that facilitate collaboration.   Rethinking How We Interact   Working from home also requires us to rethink our interactions with coworkers and clients. We are missing spontaneous interactions and team building moments. Richard shared that leaders especially have to think a little more about how to keep people engaged and connected. How do you build the community? How do you deliver what you're trying to say? You have to consider what you're trying to create and the desired outcome. If it's team building, perhaps a quick informal check in call would work. If it's something more important, then an interactive presentation might do the trick, But there's more to think about than just the information that's being delivered.   The Changing Physical Environment   We talk a lot about the virtual environment, but realistically when you're working in a virtual environment you also are still sitting somewhere physically. In the current situation, it's not just that people are working from home, you have to consider that their kids are there or roommates are there. Multiple people in one household trying to work and collaborate with their own companies and schools. Companies need to consider this when thinking about the virtual environment too.   As individuals, we need to get in the right mental headspace. We need to create the right working zone in our minds to get things done. There is no “one size fits all” response that will work. We each have to figure out what works.   Biggest Surprises and Takeaways   There were many surprises and big takeaways from the study but a few stood out. Caitlin shared that she was surprised how adaptable people are to different situations, but that there are still barriers to success if you don't handle collaborative workspace in the right way. Right now many companies are thinking about how to get the workforce on board to deal with new ways of work and to adjust to this environment, but yet have a balance in their lives? Richard proposed that companies and leaders need to create a shared sense of purpose. Get employees invested by helping them understand the value proposition and the role they play.   At the same time, communication is hugely important. Slow everything down and make slear points so people have the opportunity to absorb, understand, and then respond.   Caitlin's final takeaway is mostly aimed at leaders. As you're thinking about your teams and a virtual only way of interacting, it is important to create those micro-moments of trust that normally you depend on happening by accident physically in the office. This cannot be overlooked or forgotten if you want your team to be successful.   If you'd like to learn more about the study or other pieces of research that the Leading Edge Forum is working on, visit their website. Also be sure to listen to the full episode below and hit subscribe while you're at it so you never miss an insightful episode of The Futurum Tech Podcast.

Welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast from the University of Exeter Doctoral College! The podcast about non-academic careers and all the opportunities available to you... beyond your research degree! In this episode PhD student Debbie Kinsey talks to Dr Caitlin McDonald, a University of Exeter alumni who now works at the Leading Edge Forum. Today Caitlin is recognised for her domain knowledge in qualitative methods like ethnography and participant-observation.    Music from https://filmmusic.io 'Cheery Monday' by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:21,000 Hello and welcome to the Beyond Your Research Degree podcast by the University of Exeter, Doctoral College 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 My name's Dr Caitlin McDonald. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:31,000 I graduated in 2011 with a degree in Arab and Islamic studies from here at the University of Exeter at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies. 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 And hard as it is to believe that it's now nine years later. 5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,000 It's it's really interesting to look back on what's happened since that time and 6 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000 consider the skills that I took away from the university and how I'm applying them now. 7 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:53,000 So maybe to give you a bit of an update on where I am. I currently work as a digital anthropologist at an organisation called The Leading Edge Forum, 8 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,000 which does technology and strategy research for large businesses and just in the 9 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Last month I was at the UN delivering a talk at the International Labour Organisation. 10 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:11,000 I then hosted a dinner at the House of Lords about ethics. And I've done a range of interesting and exciting things since then. 11 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000 But it's really interesting to think about this particular month in particular 12 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,000 and how that the kind of culmination of where I started and how I got here. 13 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:28,000 So I started working at the Leading Edge forum about two years ago, and before that I was based at what was the Times educational supplement. 14 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 But it's no longer known as that it's just the tes 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It's no longer owned by the Times, where I was working as a digital analyst, data analyst and working with data systems quite a bit. 16 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,000 So all of that sounds really different than where I started, which was very much middle easy studies based, but really the kind of the through line. 17 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:55,000 The thread for me was that a lot of the research that I was doing when I was doing my PhD was very digital ethnography based. 18 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:06,000 So I was looking at patterns of knowledge and how they shift around the world, in particular for dancers who often for Middle Eastern dance, 19 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:15,000 want to base their practise or to base the centre at the hub of their knowledge in Cairo or sometimes in Turkey or in other kinds of regions. 20 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,000 But in my particular case, I was looking at dancers who had a dance tradition that is based out of Cairo. 21 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:26,000 And what ended up happening was I did a lot of ethnography around in particular how people were using Facebook groups, 22 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,000 but also other social media channels to spread the knowledge and in the creation of knowledge 23 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:39,000 about how the dance kind of mythology and epistemology of what the dance meant to people. 24 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:47,000 And while this doesn't sound really revolutionary now, way back in 2006, 2007, 2008, when I was first doing that, that was fairly new. 25 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,000 You know, there weren't a huge amount of digital humanities tools at the time. 26 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000 And certainly we weren't using anything like this wonderful lab that we have now. I think this was the old print print shop at the time. 27 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000 So it was really interesting. But then what ended up happening is I went to do a very quantitative role, 28 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,000 which when you become an anthropologist, you don't necessarily think of yourself as a quantitative person. 29 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:14,000 Some might. I did not. But it was having that kind of digital skills component that really was able to help me make 30 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,000 the transition from a very academic role into a much more kind of commercially minded role. 31 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:27,000 And I didn't really intend to leave academia, but around the time that I was leaving, there were huge budget cuts. 32 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:35,000 So there simply weren't the kind of resources available for people to have postdocs and subsequent academic careers in particular. 33 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,000 As an immigrant to this country, I was I needed to have a role if I wanted to stay working here. 34 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000 That was not short term. So it had to be a Full-Time full contract. 35 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,000 And luckily, I was able to find something that worked out, which was with the Tes 36 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000 and they really wanted someone who could help them to an extent of their research skills. 37 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But a lot of the role was really about the kind of Day-To-Day operational knowledge to help the business run. 38 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 So that was very, very different from what I previously been doing. 39 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:07,000 But having this kind of interrogative skills, those kind of basics of a humanities research skills, 40 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,000 those basic social sciences research skills was really helpful or for doing things 41 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,000 like helping question why a particular thing was being done in a particular way. 42 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,000 In particular, I was doing a lot of kind of daily reporting of what was happening on the website and what kinds of numbers 43 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:29,000 were coming back in terms of circulation and all those kinds of things that digital businesses do. 44 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And really, the thing that was extremely useful was being able to turn around and say, hey, is anyone actually reading this report? 45 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 You know, something as simple as this ritual that we go through on a daily basis of producing these numbers. 46 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,000 How are they feeding into our decision making? 47 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:49,000 And in some senses, that questioning was perhaps not always very welcome, but it also was that helpful to create the conditions for change. 48 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,000 And I think that the social sciences are not always really great about talking about 49 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 the transferable skills outside of academia that absolutely do exist. 50 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:05,000 And I think now we're starting to see in particular with another research area that I do, which is all around ethics. 51 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 You're starting to see some of those kinds of questions emerging around. 52 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Who is in charge of this knowledge or what are the kinds of different weights that we put on how we assess particular aspects of 53 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:27,000 artificial intelligence and its relevance and its usefulness and how is it relevant to and who's benefiting and who's not benefiting? 54 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:34,000 And I think that having a general social sciences research background, regardless of whether your specialism is in ethics or in, 55 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:42,000 you know, particular aspects of digital technologies, you know, having that kind of questioning mind is is a really useful thing. 56 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:49,000 And I think that people who work in digital context are starting to appreciate those qualitative skills, 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:58,000 again, in a way that perhaps has been a little bit subsumed recently. So those kinds of questions around how is this going to benefit not only direct 58 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,000 users of our services or our products or whatever it is that we're building, 59 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000 but also that kind of contextual knowledge about how is this affecting other people who are going to be impacted by the decisions that we're making? 60 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:14,000 There is renewed curiosity and interest in those kinds of decisions. And so increasingly, organisations, 61 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,000 businesses and non-commercial organisations are looking to the humanities as well as 62 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:25,000 engineering to to make up the body of knowledge of creating those products effectively. 63 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000 So I would say now is a really good time, actually, to be in the digital humanities. 64 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000 And to some extent, no matter what you're doing, your work is always going to have a digital component. 65 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 So recognising that, you know, when you think about the degree that I did, 66 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:44,000 which was very much based in transmission of knowledge and very much about dance, 67 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,000 you wouldn't necessarily think that that would lead to where it did lead. But in other ways, it makes total sense. 68 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,000 It was a logical chain of transmission. I was looking at the social components of how that knowledge was happening. 69 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And now we are even more immersed in digital technologies. Our careers are even more immersed in this, no matter who you are. 70 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So having that background of having done that, kind of that kind of study was really useful to get me where I am now. 71 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 Yeah, it sounds really interesting. So it sounds like so 72 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 all PhDs are very specific so yours was around dance and transmission of knowledge between dances and creation of knowledge in that way. 73 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But then it sounds you talk about thinking about things, those things more broadly in terms of the general skills we develop. 74 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:32,000 And how did you find translating those things from kind of academic speak to then going into a non-academic, non-academic role? 75 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Yeah. I would say that initially it was a real challenge for me, partly because when I first was looking for a job, 76 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 I still was applying for a very academic roles, as well as starting to look beyond that. 77 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,000 So I was looking at a lot of roles in market research. I was looking at the National Centre for Social Research. 78 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,000 I was looking at ESRA U.K. you know, you go places like that and they have a more kind of traditional, I would say, research bent. 79 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Whereas if you if you move into, you know, user research and a company, for example, 80 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:10,000 and most organisations do have a user research arm if they have a digital component, even if that's not their kind of core business, 81 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,000 but that the language of that is very different from what perhaps you might be talking about 82 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 if you're coming out of the social sciences or have a real kind of pure research background. 83 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,000 So but the advantage of being an anthropologist or a sociologist or someone who 84 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,000 studies the way that people think about knowledge is that you can then apply 85 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,000 all the research skills that you have to your own situation so you can notice 86 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 the kinds of patterns of knowledge that are happening in your organisation. 87 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:41,000 You can notice the particular language that people are using around things and say, OK, you know, this group is talking about doing AB testing. 88 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 You know, I might describe that differently in my own historical research background or whatever it was. 89 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 But actually, the actual things that you need to do, the mechanics of the research are the same. 90 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,000 So simply learning the kind of patterns of the patterns of life and work in 91 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,000 the organisation that you find yourself in is a really useful skill to apply. 92 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,000 So I spent probably two or three years mostly working in a digital engineering team. 93 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:11,000 People that were doing actual software creation. And my role there was to assist with data migration that was happening. 94 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 So we essentially had a place that we'd been storing all of this hard quantitative data 95 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000 that we were collecting over the years about how that Web site that we had was being used. 96 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,000 And then we were changing everything about the underlying infrastructure and technology that we had into a completely different data storage system. 97 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,000 And my role is to make sure that as we were doing that, nothing got lost. 98 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,000 The data was collected in the same way. Nothing was missing. 99 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Nothing suddenly looked out of place. And so part of that was doing things like mapping the infrastructure from how the old data system work, 100 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 doing what's called an entity relationship diagram, and looking at what the new entity relationships would be. 101 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 So the places where the data was collected from the stored. 102 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:59,000 And as I was doing those, I was like, this is a lot like doing essentially is family tree diagrams. 103 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 You know, it's very much the same thing where you're looking at where are things transmitting from A to Z. 104 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 So you can use all those kinds of same skills. And also just the kind of. 105 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 That sense that I would get when I would go in and if I didn't know what people were 106 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,000 talking about or if I felt like there was something unspoken or something happening, 107 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,000 I didn't quite understand, I would behave exactly as though I were doing ethnography with a community, 108 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:30,000 which is to try and treat the knowledge that I was a part of as being something that was that I was studying, you know. 109 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 And so kind of having that observational hat on. 110 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,000 First of all, it really helped defuse some situations that could have otherwise been quite personally demanding. 111 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Because if you just view it as I'm learning about what's going on within this group, 112 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:47,000 then you're kind of personal sense of responsibility about that while still high because you were working there. 113 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,000 It doesn't feel quite so rooted in your own sense of identity, I suppose, 114 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000 because you can also treat it as I'm viewing this as objectively separate from myself. 115 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,000 And also then, you know, 116 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:05,000 eventually you will pick up the lingo and you will learn the skills and you will realise the patterns that are happening within your organisation. 117 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:12,000 And that's really helpful for putting the right pieces in place at the right time to achieve the things that you want to achieve in your career. 118 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like learning the language when you're there using those skills. 119 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 You already have to kind of pick up on that. Precisely. 120 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,000 Yeah. And how did you find it kind of before that stage, kind of making applications, 121 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,000 trying to write and tailor things in such a way that you're using a language you're not quite sure of yet? 122 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,000 And kind of that probably is the hardest piece. 123 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I would say, because you're not yet immersed enough in the transition that you want to make. 124 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:50,000 To really know what you need to say so that your legitimacy of knowledge in that spaces is understood. 125 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 And you also simply don't have the connections, perhaps, that you would do once you've moved into the space. 126 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:03,000 So I'd say if I were going to do anything differently, probably what I would do is, you know, 127 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,000 and especially for students who are listening to this now that are maybe in their first or second year, 128 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 I would have spent a little bit more time thinking about how am I going to make the 129 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,000 kinds of connections I want to make to understand the spaces that are available to me, 130 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,000 like what are the options that are out there? And, B, 131 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:29,000 make the Connections to really form the right network so that at the right time I have the right information about what roles are available and 132 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:38,000 potentially who can introduce me to the right kind of person to to know about a job that's that's out there and the right kinds of skills. 133 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So because skills do change in terms of need, employer need, and what they're looking for will change over time. 134 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:51,000 So having an idea of how that space is shifting will allow you to see not only what's on the on the market right now or what's needed in the market, 135 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000 but you can get an understanding of what's going to be needed by the time I leave, 136 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 because you can kind of observe the trends that are happening and say, OK. 137 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:07,000 So if I put some resources into, for example, learning how to do network mapping or doing a bit more on the kind of digital skill side, 138 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:14,000 then I'll be more valuable than if I'm spending time doing something else. Which isn't to say, of course, that you shouldn't focus on your degree. 139 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I mean, you know, it's such a kind of you have to get over that hurdle more than anything else. 140 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Right? That is the thing to get through. But I'd say a really crucial skill is networking. 141 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,000 And I know that everyone always says that. And people find it can find it very overwhelming. 142 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:39,000 But I think the thing to remember is networking is a skill that allows you to understand 143 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,000 some knowledge that's out there in the world that you don't yet have in an informal way. 144 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 So if you view it in that sense, then it can be less overwhelming. 145 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,000 And I found as well, once I started learning to have an objective when I went to a networking event. 146 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:03,000 So I go to a lot of digital skills, meet ups in London, or I try and attend a lot of webinars or whatever it is I'm trying to learn about. 147 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,000 I look for places where I can find that information and in particular I potentially can 148 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,000 share some information as well because people are always willing to engage with you. 149 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 First of all, if you're interested in them and ask them questions, everyone loves talking about themselves. 150 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000 This is like the crucial skill of good networking is if you can get someone, if you can express interest in them. 151 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,000 People are usually very willing to tell you more about what they're doing, 152 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 but also people are usually have some kind of a need that if you can fulfil that need in some way, 153 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:39,000 like having a slightly adjacent skill or a different skill that they're looking for, then they'll want to talk to you as well. 154 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:47,000 So so building that skill of saying, OK, there is a big data meetup on Wednesday, I'm going to go and 155 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,000 My goal is to find out either a little bit more about this particular topic or to meet someone that works in this 156 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:00,000 business or to find someone that has this job title and just speak to them a little bit about whatever my objective is. 157 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000 Having that focus can really, really make it much easier because you feel less overwhelmed by the idea of networking in general. 158 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:16,000 That can. Huge kind of topic and kind of focussing it on something smaller to achieve can make can make life just a little bit less overwhelming. 159 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think a lot people do get it. Oh, you've got to network. 160 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But then what does that really mean? What does it look like in practise. They kind of. 161 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,000 Yeah. So to get tip of going to something with an objective and kind of having a little bit of reciprocity in that, 162 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:36,000 like maybe there's two things you can offer as well as getting people to talk about themselves. 163 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Yeah. And honestly, the other thing that I would say, which is a really good tip, is even if you're fairly early in your career, 164 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,000 especially if you're looking at a non-academic role, getting up there and being a speaker. 165 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:54,000 So, you know, it gives it gives you a chance to showcase what you're doing or the kinds of knowledge and skills that you have. 166 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000 But it also gives people an excuse to talk to you at a networking event. 167 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 And even if you're an introvert, actually, as scary as it could be to go on stage, 168 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:08,000 giving a talk is a really excellent way of putting the burden on others to come and talk to you so you don't have 169 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,000 to feel like you're trying to muscle your way into someone else or to identify a friendly face in the crowd, 170 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 because everyone knows that you're so and so talked about the thing and then they might want to come ask you questions. 171 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:23,000 So it's a really great way of, you know, it's essentially you saying I'm here, I can talk about this. 172 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,000 And I'd say the real value is that in the personal connections, the one on one connections that you make after you've given the talk. 173 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,000 So even a short you know, in particular, when I think about the technology team, 174 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:40,000 which is mostly what I work in, there are tons of events, in particular London, where I live. 175 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,000 You could probably go to multiple. You'd have your choice of events to go to every evening. 176 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And typically they're very short form talks, two to three minutes about a subject of interest. 177 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,000 So there's usually lots of opportunities to get in and kind of on the ground floor of the ladder of speaking, as it were. 178 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:02,000 If you're in a place that has less accessible resources in that way, there are definitely a lot of online resources. 179 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000 And in particular, I think now that there is so much fear about physically being lots of people together, 180 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000 lots of the kinds of events that I would typically have gone to are going to be thinking about moving online more and more. 181 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And the way that we develop essentially digital etiquette. 182 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:24,000 So, you know, how people develop those kinds of informal connections is going to become increasingly important. 183 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:30,000 You know, it's relatively easy to put together a podcast or a webinar that is one way broadcast content, 184 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,000 but creating those connections that those networking events are really valuable for. 185 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,000 There are very few ways that people are good at that right now. But I think increasingly that's a thing that people will get good at. 186 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 So I'd say look for opportunities in that space where you can not only watch a piece of content, 187 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,000 but also in some way contribute to an ongoing dialogue and meet people through that kind of a mechanism. 188 00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:02,000 I'm trying to think of other examples of good kind of asynchronous or at a distance ways that people can learn and connect with one another. 189 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000 I subscribe to a lot of newsletters about such just some interest to me professionally as well. 190 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Usually reaching out to someone and saying, I read this thing or I have a question about whatever it is, 191 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,000 you won't always have a hundred percent success so that people will get a lot of demands on their time, 192 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 particularly as they get more skilled or experienced in their space. 193 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,000 But often people are again willing to talk about something or willing to connect with you, 194 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,000 you know, to answer a question or to be involved or engaged in something. 195 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,000 People are typically very generous with their time, you know, especially if you're only asking for 10 minutes or, you know, 196 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,000 whatever it is, a small or small chunk of time is usually a good way to go in, particularly if you can be specific about your ask. 197 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:49,000 That really helps people to engage with you quickly is instead of being like, hey, I read your thing, will you be my mentor? 198 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,000 That's that's often too open ended. But if you say I read your thing, it was interesting. 199 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Specifically, I have a question about blah. You can often then open a dialogue in that way. 200 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Yeah. So it kind of being specific and kind of very much time limited when you're asking of people. 201 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:11,000 And yeah. And it's really interesting to think about kind of non sort of Face-To-Face in person ways you can do networking. 202 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,000 I think a lot of people think of networking as you got to go to this event and a lot 203 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,000 of PGRs are part time or they have caring responsibilities and they just think, 204 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,000 oh, I just can't do that. Actually, there are all these other ways that you can get involved. 205 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Yeah. And like I say, I think that those kind of online and asynchronous abilities are where the necessity for those 206 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:34,000 is going to become increasing over the next few months and probably years after that as well. 207 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,000 You know, because businesses have long been looking for ways to encourage less business travel, for example. 208 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,000 And it's always, oh, it's too hard. There's no way to do this. It's impossible. 209 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:49,000 And one of my current research areas is how digital technologies are actually changing the physical spaces that people work. 210 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And so right now is a real kind of fascinating live experiment for me to watch the way the businesses are responding to the current pandemic crisis. 211 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,000 And I think that that really will change a lot of the things that we're thinking about. 212 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 In particular, you look at things like slack channels for technology. 213 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Conferences have always been very popular, but. 214 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,000 It's going from that being a kind of adjacent thing to the event, to being that is the event. 215 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,000 You know, video conferencing again. It's not like that's a new technology, 216 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:24,000 but the way that people get comfortable with using those things in particular in large groups is going to be really interesting. 217 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:31,000 I think how people understand the visual and audio cues that they're getting on multiple person calls is going 218 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:37,000 to be interesting because you often have these kind of slightly weird signals where if you were in person. 219 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,000 So, of course, you know, we're probably sitting about four or five feet apart as we're recording this podcast. 220 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 And that has a particular kind of etiquette about the way that we do distancing 221 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,000 But if you're in a video conferencing situation, people often have the camera at a slightly weird distance. 222 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,000 So you either feel like you're too close or you're too far away. 223 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,000 And that gives different cues to how you perceive that interaction, where they have the microphone to close it. 224 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 It's like they're breathing on you. I don't know if you've had that experience. I'm sure everyone has. 225 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 And it's that really sets up a very different kind of interaction. 226 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 And I think that as these technologies become ever more ubiquitous, 227 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000 people are going to have to be getting better at understanding what those implications 228 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,000 are of sound and eyesight and what that means for people's comfort level of distancing. 229 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 So that for me, is very fascinating subject right now. Yeah, yeah. There's so much to explore. 230 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000 And it's going to be interesting how it develops like over the next couple of months especially. 231 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:35,000 Definitely. And you mentioned that he thought networking would be particularly with people in the early 232 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,000 stage of their PhD just in terms of finding out about what different entities are doing, 233 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000 how things are moving and trends, 234 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:48,000 and then they can use that to think about what skills do I need to pick up and develop and see if someone was interested 235 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:55,000 in doing the kind of work that you do like as a digital anthropologist and all the various things that that's include 236 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,000 What kinds of experiences would be useful for people to try and pick up alongside or as part of the PhD 237 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000 I think one of the it's important to focus on one of the reasons that I think it's important 238 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,000 to do this early in your academic career is because when you are working in academia, 239 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,000 unless you are doing something part time or you have prior experience outside of academia, 240 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,000 the people who are teaching you so often don't have the experience of working outside of academia. 241 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 So they are simply not in a very good position to advise you about if you want to explore non-academic options. 242 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,000 What that transition looks like, what kinds of skills are being looked for. 243 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,000 They can't really advise you on the kind of non-academic lingo unless they themselves are also doing some of this stuff. 244 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 This is all, of course, very context dependent. 245 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,000 You have some departments who are very different or you have university support services which can help you. 246 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:46,000 But in general, my experience when I was a PhD student was that of many others that I spoke to was that they simply weren't 247 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:55,000 able to bridge that gap into the commercial realm because they didn't have the right advice at the time. 248 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,000 And being an anthropologist and someone who does a lot of ethnography 249 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,000 I always think that the best way of learning about something is going to immerse yourself in that thing and then experiencing it for yourself. 250 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:12,000 So finding an internship or some kind of work experience, I know it's less common for older people to be doing those. 251 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:20,000 But you can usually find something. And there are often places that will offer short work placements even to postgraduate students, 252 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,000 although it is you know, sometimes they're not quite very well set up for that. But, you know, there are definitely places that are doing it, 253 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000 especially if they're interested either in your area of research or the kinds of creative skills that 254 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,000 you can bring to the situation that you're looking at and doing those fairly early on in your career. 255 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Gives you an opportunity to understand more about yourself, what you like and what you don't like instead of waiting until the end and thinking, hey, 256 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 I'm just going to sit out in the wide world and having this wonderful badge of my degree is going to 257 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:55,000 tell people something about who I am and the kind of skills I have often in a commercial setting. 258 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:03,000 You know, you might recognise the value of a PhD, but you won't understand how that applies to your business. 259 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,000 So particular for early people who are just out of the PhD 260 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:16,000 It's a hard sell because in essence, from an employer perspective, they're seeing it was just a regular graduate who is a little bit more expensive. 261 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 And that can be challenging to overcome that. 262 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,000 You know, I'd say after your first job or first couple of jobs, when you move it to either a more managerial role or more strategic looking role, 263 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000 then people begin to value your active experience more than they did when you were first out of the gate. 264 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,000 So that's really tough because that's kind of the biggest hurdle is is getting into your first job. 265 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:46,000 It's a very much kind of a catch 22 situation. But coming in from your your postgraduate experience, having had some commercial experience as well, 266 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:52,000 puts you in a much stronger position than to be looking at a commercial role because people can 267 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,000 people make assumptions about your commercial experience when they're reviewing your CV or your, 268 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,000 you know, as you're being in your hiring process than they will about someone who's just coming with no experience. 269 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,000 That's obvious to them. Yeah. So it sounds like it's really important. 270 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000 First, few roles to really think to really keep in mind that someone else won't know, understand what a PhD is. 271 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Also all the skills involved. So you really have to work at both getting other experiences, 272 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000 maybe then also how you kind of market those things, I guess what those skills mean from your PhD. 273 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000 It's not just I did this degree and there's nothing about it that makes sense. 274 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it's worth remembering that in a commercial setting, the word research can mean very different things. 275 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:47,000 So I'm doing some doing a little bit of research on what is the commercial we're looking for and what do those kinds of roles do. 276 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:55,000 And if I'm if I'm right. Gosh, the PGR resource that I'm forgetting the name of. 277 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000 But it's like academia to ac-doc or something like that. Yeah. 278 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,000 I can find it to be linked. That would be awesome. Thank you. So. 279 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,000 So there's some good kind of role descriptions of, you know, what does a U x designer do. 280 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,000 And what does a commercial analyst do. 281 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000 And things of that nature that are just kind of general descriptions of jobs that are out there in 282 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:20,000 the market and getting an understanding of what the language is that's used around those roles is 283 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,000 really helpful because you can then tailor your CV to reflect those skills specifically and in 284 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:31,000 particular to take some projects that you've done and demonstrate how those skills relate to that role. 285 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,000 So essentially, it means you as the person coming into the job, 286 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,000 you have to be a bit more forward stepping and thinking to to to the commercial 287 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,000 person to give them an understanding of what you want them to see about that. 288 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,000 That relates to their job that they have on the market. 289 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,000 And that can be challenging because, again, sometimes the language is, you know, very jargonistic in particular. 290 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,000 And, you know, if you've worked in a commercial setting, you might understand the particularities of what they're looking for. 291 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 Whereas if you haven't, you don't really know what they're looking for. 292 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000 But trying to get informal interviews with people just to understand what they're specifically 293 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,000 asking or getting in examples of prior work that other people who are in that field have done. 294 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:19,000 So that's why networking isn't just about learning from people who are already hiring managers. 295 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,000 It's not just about trying to find people who are looking for, you know, who have jobs on offer, 296 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,000 but also about meeting people in those roles and finding out what their backgrounds are and how they got into that role. 297 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:35,000 So it's really important, even just pure networking, can be super important to to understand how they bridge that gap and how they got into that space. 298 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000 Yes, I say there's a lot to do in terms of not having assumptions yourself. 299 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000 Someone else will understand what you're talking about then not assuming that 300 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,000 you also know what they're talking about when they say research and you say, I've done this research, 301 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,000 you might be talking about two completely different things and you might not either 302 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,000 have a good match or they might not realise that you might be a good match. And talking to other people, 303 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,000 who are in the field and their experiences can really help to sort of reach those gaps and find that language like you say, 304 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,000 before you're fully immersed in whatever field. Is that kind of thing. 305 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:17,000 Yeah. Yeah. Precisely. Yeah. So you say if someone was applying to work with you with that particular things that you are looking for in 306 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:23,000 terms of how people put those things across or things you'll particularly like not looking for things like, 307 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 nope, don't do that. Yeah. Let me answer that question in two ways. 308 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,000 So where I work now, we are essentially a small consortium of researchers who have very different skills. 309 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:37,000 So you can think about in an academic setting as being like an area skills department where you might have an economist and an anthropologist 310 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:44,000 and a musicologist and whoever else that are all working on either a particular geographic region or some kind of conceptual region. 311 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,000 But they all have very, very different skills that they're bringing to the table. 312 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:53,000 And they might not even work very closely together, although they might on some projects. So that's really where I work now, is like that. 313 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,000 We all have very specialised skills. I'm the only digital anthropologist on the team. 314 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:04,000 The other people who have more skills that are focussed on looking at things like digitisation and cloud 315 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:14,000 technologies and organisational strategy and some in some cases software engineering concepts and things like that. 316 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 So we all have very, very different goals. 317 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,000 So when we look for someone, we're typically looking for someone who has different skills and what we already have. 318 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:34,000 I would say in the roles that we're doing, if I was hiring someone to be an assistant to me, then I probably would be looking for. 319 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,000 Usually I've done that in a kind of short term project way. 320 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:44,000 So in that case, it will very much depend on other project is when we hire into the the LEF. 321 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,000 More broadly, we probably will be looking for somebody with a fair amount of commercially experience already. 322 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,000 So I probably wouldn't see that as a good was a good starting role for somebody who has a PhD. 323 00:29:53,000 --> 00:30:03,000 But, you know, I've managed to make it there eventually. So I think if you want to work in an organisation that's like the one that ours is, 324 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,000 then it's a matter of figuring out what kinds of steppingstones you need to put him. 325 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,000 Along the way to get there. 326 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:20,000 So to answer the question more from the perspective of my old job, when I was doing a more kind of data science y data analysis, background. 327 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:30,000 When we were first hiring people who were typically coming straight out of their degrees for junior analyst roles. 328 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000 That was a very quantitatively oriented department. 329 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:42,000 So we were typically looking for some examples of statistical knowledge, some potentially familiarity with statistical package software. 330 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,000 And interestingly, there's not a lot of crossover between academic usage of those things. 331 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:53,000 So you typically might be doing SPSS or quite a lot of stuff with, ah, potentially some stuff with Python. 332 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,000 And what commercial organisations use in those spaces. 333 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Obviously all the maths is the same, but they simply are using different kinds of software packages. 334 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,000 So we wouldn't always be looking for some experience in those commercial packages, 335 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:14,000 which are things like Tableau and Click View and software package called Looker. 336 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,000 But if they had some, that was usually perceived as an advantage. 337 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:26,000 But if they had Python, our other stuff, we knew that they'd worked with statistical package software before and that was OK. 338 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:35,000 We also were looking for people who at the time, again, very quantitive were all but we wanted people who could look at a set of data 339 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,000 and see where there were irregularities or unusual things happening so that 340 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:48,000 they could then raise a challenge in terms of either how the data was being collected or an anomaly of some kind in what was happening with the data. 341 00:31:48,000 --> 00:32:01,000 So you needed to have a bit of an investigative hat. And I would say my role there as an anthropologist was much more about assisting 342 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000 people with the kind of more ephemeral qualities of questioning those things. 343 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:15,000 So while I did have a very quantitative role when I was there, I wasn't necessarily doing a lot of the kind of data sciences side of things. 344 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,000 A lot of it was more of the summary statistics. And then, OK, we've noticed that there's an unusual pattern. 345 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,000 What are some creative ideas we can think about, about in terms of why that might be? 346 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,000 So you needed that mixture of people who could do the the crunchier side of the maths, 347 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:39,000 but also say things like all the schools are on holiday this week or there's been a strike in Chicago teaching in the Chicago teaching union 348 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:46,000 And so therefore, we're having less people who are logging on to share their stories with us this week or whatever it might be. 349 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:53,000 So there is kind of that social side in terms of understanding what you know, if you see something unusual, what might it be? 350 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:59,000 So a lot of my role in the end was really about training the newer trainees so they would come in with a more kind of hard sciences background. 351 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,000 And then my role would be to help them. Question. When you see something unusual, why might that be so they can answer a lot of questions about this. 352 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,000 Looks weird, but they didn't necessarily know what to do with that information. And my role is to help them understand that. 353 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,000 Know how could you then question this more broadly? Yeah. 354 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,000 So it's kind of, um, combining those that kind of hard science, the social sciences types together. 355 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:25,000 Precisely. And I would say if you depending on the size of the organisation you're with, you often find that you get blended teams. 356 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:31,000 So and that can be a real strength when you're able to when you're able to have people who have strengths in different areas, 357 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:37,000 it allows you to see information in a different way than if you are just one person is looking at it in one way. 358 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,000 And of course, there's always the wonderful idea of having everyone have all of the skills. 359 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000 But people are simply going to have different strengths. 360 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,000 And recognising where they can contribute the most is really important for any organisation to do. 361 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Yeah. Yeah, sure. I know I say sounds like you're saying your current role and maybe that's a person that's listenings dream. 362 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:03,000 Well, they want to work in a team, but it's a case that you won't necessarily do that straight away to think about the kind of work. 363 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,000 What are the steps and experiences I need to get to that point. If that's the kind of thing I want to be aiming for. 364 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,000 Yeah. Precisely. So a good example would be like, there is no way that I would have the job I have now, 365 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,000 even though my role is much more qualitative than it was previously. 366 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:21,000 If I hadn't had my experience where I was doing essentially the kind of hard number crunching for the past six years before that, 367 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,000 because it gave me experiences like managing a team, give me a lot of organisational operational experience. 368 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,000 So I understood the different parts of what most businesses have in terms of the kinds of ways that they're set up. 369 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:39,000 Give me a lot of experience around kind of standard ways of doing commercial modelling for different kinds of things. 370 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:45,000 So then when I go into businesses now where where I'm advising them, I usually understand the organisational setup pretty well. 371 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:53,000 Because, you know, though, of course, there are differences, there are definitely commonalities in terms of how large organisations are always set up. 372 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000 So if I hadn't had that experience, 373 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,000 I wouldn't simply I've simply wouldn't be able to kind of stretch to putting myself in the shoes of the organisations I work with. 374 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:08,000 So so, yeah, it's definitely that kind of sense of, OK, if I want to someday work in a think tank or work in a research. 375 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:15,000 organisation or something of that nature or go into a kind of political policy organisation. 376 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000 What do I need to do so that when I get there, 377 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:25,000 I have the right mixture of skills and background and essentially area knowledge so that I can really provide the most value in that kind of role. 378 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:33,000 Yeah, yeah. And when you were moving to your first role at tes, like, how did you find because obviously that was quite different in terms of quantitative, 379 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:39,000 in terms of applying for that role, how you sort of sold your skills in that setting mixture thing. 380 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,000 So I had applied for several different things around that time. 381 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:49,000 I specifically remembers applying for internship and publishing as well. And I was applying at that time as well as it has. 382 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:55,000 And the tes connection was actually through a personal friend. 383 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:02,000 So, again, networking, it comes down to, you know, it absolutely is about what you know, because, you know, 384 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,000 when you show up in the room to be the one who is in the interview, you have to you have to pass the bar. 385 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:13,000 But in terms of the knowledge about what roles are available and out there, 386 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,000 it really is helpful to not just be depending on job boards and kind of publicly available information. 387 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:27,000 Having some knowledge about, you know, roles that either are not being advertised explicitly or in particular this role. 388 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,000 When I first was applying, it has had a very hard time filling the role. 389 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,000 And that's partly because it was a slightly unusual setup for the role. 390 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:42,000 So a lot of the people that they were interviewing either had one side of the job that they were looking for covered already, 391 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,000 or they had the other side that they wanted. 392 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:53,000 So in this case, they wanted somebody who could do a lot of the kind of analysis and Day-To-Day reporting. 393 00:36:53,000 --> 00:37:00,000 But they also wanted someone who they could eventually train to do some of the the actual programming of the reporting tools. 394 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,000 And what they were finding at the time was that they could they could find someone who was one of the other very strongly, 395 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:10,000 who had a commercial background. But they were really struggling to find somebody who either had both or wanted to do both because it was unusual, 396 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:17,000 you know, expectation, especially for that level of role. And of course, I come in as a newly graduated PhD and like, I can do anything. 397 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,000 I'm willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in this job. And sometimes that extra flexibility of simply saying, hey, 398 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:31,000 I'm willing to learn it can it can sometimes put you in a better position simply because other people whose careers were 399 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:40,000 fixed or have a very focussed career path in mind might not be interested in having that kind of broad range of skills. 400 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:48,000 And so, you know, for you to come in then and say, I can learn things very quickly and I'm very experienced in part of this or I am 401 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,000 very thorough in the way that I go about learning things can be a real advantage. 402 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,000 And so that was eventually what happened was because they'd had such a hard time filling the role, 403 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,000 they were then willing to look slightly differently at what kinds of mix of skills they needed. So essentially, 404 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:10,000 I showed up at the right time when they were looking for someone who is a little bit different than what they had initially had in mind. 405 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,000 And then when I was doing the interviewing, clearly they were impressed by the research skills that I had, 406 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:21,000 but also some of the ways that I was thinking about or questioning some of the stuff that they were putting forward that made them feel like, 407 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,000 OK, this could be someone who can approach this role differently, which is really helpful for them. 408 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,000 And interestingly enough, when I went to then move to the leading edge forum where I work now, 409 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,000 I knew that I was ready to move on from a role that was very quantitative. 410 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,000 And I wanted to get back into some of those more kind of core research skills that I developed. 411 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:45,000 And when I was here at Exeter and I was having a hard time because my role at that point was so quantitive that all anyone could see in me was, 412 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:51,000 oh, she's an analyst. She's an analyst. And so it was very hard for them to see that the qualitative skills that I'd amassed 413 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,000 in the previous simply weren't things that in their mind were showing up for them. 414 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,000 When I was trying to put myself forward. 415 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:05,000 So but the leading edge forum was specifically looking for someone who wanted to do a digital anthropology programme for them, programme of research. 416 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,000 So again, it was just the right thing at the right time. It just matched up. That was what I wanted to do and that was what they needed. 417 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,000 And again, they'd been having a hard time filling the role because they had a lot of people who either had a 418 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,000 lot of commercial experience but didn't really have the kind of core research skills that I had. 419 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,000 Or they had a lot of people who had been doing very academic research for a long time, 420 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:31,000 but didn't have the commercial experience and the context to operate in that world. 421 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,000 So, you know, it's just about finding the right the right match at the right moment, I think. 422 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000 Yeah. Yeah. And this only about. Throughout kind of the importance of networking, 423 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,000 finding out about jobs that are available in any kind of different people's experience and backgrounds in these industries. 424 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,000 And it sounds like that makes it experience between the academic and the kind 425 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,000 of commercial industry industry type stuff and get having both those things. 426 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,000 And I said maybe trying to get some of these experiences durinf your PhD really helpful. 427 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It can be really powerful if you want to move into a commercial role. 428 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:17,000 And I I'd say also what I've observed. Is there an increasing number of public private partnerships or academic quasi 429 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:24,000 academic research skills or or things of that nature where there's some kind of, 430 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:32,000 oh, hey, we, the university have a lot of research skills or a lot of scope for doing like innovation lab style stuff. 431 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 But what we don't have is a lot of the commercial side of things. 432 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:42,000 So they develop these like digital hubs or innovation hubs in different parts of the world, in different country. 433 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:51,000 And so there are often roles that are available that are kind of quasi academic, but also really depend on the commercial experience as well. 434 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,000 So, you know, I haven't really had an experience of fighting for those, 435 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,000 but it's something I've observed as I've been thinking about my my future career path. 436 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,000 It's something that I've observed is out there in the market. So there might be something like that. You know, 437 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,000 if you're thinking about perhaps wanting to stick a bit closer on the academic 438 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,000 side and maintaining those academic credentials and publishing and all that. 439 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:16,000 But also having a bit of commercial experience that would let you be that kind of linchpin between those two those two things. 440 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:23,000 So I'd say that's an interesting potential career path as well. It's adjacent to but not exactly the same as the way that I've gone. 441 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,000 And would there be any other kind of final tips you'd give someone kind of in the middle of 442 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:33,000 your PhD or something you wish you'd done a bit differently when you were doing your PhD? 443 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,000 I think the only other tip. 444 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:45,000 And again, it's probably something that is spoken about perhaps a bit more than when I was a student, is prioritising your own self care. 445 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:51,000 And I mean that not in a fluffy bubble bath kind of way, although if that is something that works for you, then great. 446 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,000 But really look after your own mental health and your own physical health. 447 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:05,000 Because if you don't have a working as a working instrument, then it's going to be very difficult for you to play the sonata, basically. 448 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:15,000 And I'm hoping that there are a lot of resources out there available now to enable students to to really 449 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 care about those things and to look after themselves and also to develop those habits early in life, 450 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,000 especially when you're in the kind of pressured environment that a Masters or 451 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:30,000 PhD is that will put you in extremely good stead for later in life when you 452 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 have pressured roles or are dealing with different kinds of pressures like 453 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,000 balancing work and family or what or financial concerns or whatever it might be. 454 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:46,000 So developing those habits early on, when you're at what might be the most pressured moment of your career, ultimately will then help you. 455 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:52,000 Everything else beyond that will seem like a piece of cake then. And that's it for this episode. 456 00:42:52,000 --> 00:43:07,349 Join us next time when we'll be talking to another researcher about their career beyond their research degree.  

We spoke with Caitlin McDonald the Program Manager for the Utah Humanities Utah Center for Local Initiatives. Learn more here.Events as heard in this episodeRirie Woodbury Virtual Creative Movement Dance Class for Young Movers 11 AM every week dayLocals Lounge Every Night at 7PM Facebook Live presented by Mountain Town Music and O.P. Rockwell and Park City Summit county Arts councilOnline Gardening Classes presented by the Utah Arts Alliance Livestreamed on Facebook

On this month's episode Chloe and Ella from the team ask anthropologist Dr Caitlin McDonald, and Karen Rubin CRO at Owl Labs, for their take on the future of working. Is the psychology of videoconferencing yet to catch up with the technology?

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! In this episode we are talking about a book we hope everyone writes one day: Your second book, the one you are going to work on under contract and with an editor. Writing while working with an editor is very different from when you were off on your own, they have things like opinions and deadlines and they’re going to want to hear what your plans are.  But fear not, this isn’t scary, it’s awesome!  And we’re going to talk about all the reasons it’s great to have someone to work with as well as what to expect from the process. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and let us know if you took part in NaNoWriMo and how it went! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Rekka: 00:00   Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:           00:09   And I'm Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:12   This one is a Kaelyn episode mostly because Kaelyn is getting very excited about some work that she's going to be doing with her authors very soon. Kaelyn:           00:22   Yeah. Rekka: 00:22   And she's smiling so big right now because she's just just tickled and loves her author so much. Kaelyn:           00:28   I do love my authors. They're all wonderful people. Um, but we're talking today about your second book and we don't mean your second standalone book. We mean what's coming in your series. Um, it's a very different process and a circumstance to write your second book under the direction of someone than it is your first one by yourself. And, um, I think this goes for both debut authors and people who are then just selling a new trilogy that have just been working something. Um, we keep um, you know, we mentioned at the end of the episode, uh, we'll qualify it here. We say trilogy a lot in this. Really it's any kind of a series. Rekka: 01:13   Right, right. And when we say under the direction of someone else, you've obviously already revised something under the direction of one or two other people. But we're talking about ground up. You know there is, you are starting from scratch. You are starting from the blank page. Kaelyn:           01:27   And there is somebody whose opinion now you have to take into account. Rekka: 01:31   See you keep saying, I hope it didn't sound too scary. That's why it sounds so scary. Kaelyn:           01:36   Because it's an intimidating thing, but we get into all that in this episode. Rekka: 01:40   Um, yeah. So when she says your contract contractually obligated to take their opinion into account, she's like, yes, that's true. Kaelyn:           01:49   Hey, I'm here for the truth. I'm telling it how it is. Rekka: 01:52   But that's kind of why you got into publishing your book with a traditional publisher. You wanted a team behind your book. And so this is, this episode is all about writing your book after you've already sold, possibly published the first book in a series of indetermined length and doing it with a team of enthusiastic book people behind you. Kaelyn:           02:17   Which is fun and exciting. But definitely very different from the first time you did this. New Speaker: 02:21   So we'll get into that in this episode. So take a listen and here it comes. Speaker 2:       02:40   [inaudible]. Rekka: 02:41   You notice I bought two of them. Kaelyn:           02:43   Oh yeah. I thought this was the same one that was inside. Rekka: 02:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:           02:46   It's um, very uh, warm and soft. Rekka: 02:50   And soft. Kaelyn:           02:51   So soft and fuzzy. Rekka: 02:52   Yes. Kaelyn:           02:53   Cause you won't let me have one of the cats in here to keep me company. Rekka: 02:56   I mean the blanket sheds less than the cats do. Kaelyn:           02:59   Fair. So anyway, we're talking today about books and stuff about books, same as always. But, uh, actually we're talking about a specific book at this point. Rekka: 03:10   Oh. Kaelyn:           03:11   Not a specific book as in a specific title, but it is a specific book that hopefully you're going to write one day, Rekka: 03:20   Hey, you know, maybe you might write a book someday and then maybe somebody wants to buy it and then they're like, Hey, is it a trilogy? And you go, of course it's a trilogy. Kaelyn:           03:26   Of course. Rekka: 03:27   Totally. It's totally, totally, totally a trilogy. Kaelyn:           03:30   And uh, so then you have to write the second book Rekka: 03:33   Now, okay. But backup, cause we actually already discussed outside of the recording that sometimes you've already got the second book written. Kaelyn:           03:41   Sometimes you've already got the second book written. So we should back up to once upon a time a little bit here. Once upon a time there was an author who loved an idea so much that they wanted to keep writing about it. So they wrote a book and they sold that book. And then the person they sold the book to said you got any more of these? And they said, sure, do let me just figure out what's going to happen. Rekka: 04:07   And um, in our, in our conversation, we did say that a lot of times by the time the first book has sold, if it's really intended to be a trilogy or more, the, the author has probably begun work in some form or another on the second book. Kaelyn:           04:23   Yeah. So, um, you know, as we mentioned in the intro today, we're talking about writing your second book and we, this is different from our, what's coming next - Rekka: 04:33   Right, cause what's coming next is the, that episode was about like, you being surprised by the question of what, what happens in a book that's not related to your trilogy. This is going back to the trilogy. Kaelyn:           04:46   This is, there's a difference between what are you working on next and what's coming next. So we already did what are you working on next? But this is about, um, the difference between writing the first book of your trilogy and writing the second. Rekka: 04:58   Yeah. Kaelyn:           05:00   So now as Rekka said, um, there's a chance you may have already written it, you may not have, you may have a rough draft, you may have a pretty detailed outline there, any infinite number of versions that this book could exist in. Um, for our purposes here, we're starting by assuming that you sold a trilogy or maybe you even sold the first book and it's a potential trilogy contingent on sales and sales are good. So now they want the other two books. Rekka: 05:29   Um, actually just to clarify that, if they're going to want the next book, they may have decided this before the book comes out and it's actually enthusiasm or excitement is high when they decide that they want the second book. So you may not actually have anyone who's gotten real eyes on the book other than some, um, advanced review copies. Yeah. Kaelyn:           05:47   Um, and we're also assuming that when you sold the first book, it was already written, um, you gotta you gotta be at a special place in your career - Rekka: 05:57   To sell a book on an outline - Kaelyn:           05:58   To sell the first, Rekka: 05:59   ... for your debut. Kaelyn:           06:00   Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's kind of our baseline where you're starting from and writing the second book is going to be very different than writing the first book because the first book you were functionally kind of doing on, on your own. Um, now of course you're probably involved in some writing groups. You had some beta readers, you had, people you talked to about this. Maybe you even had an editor you hired to, uh, to take a look at it. The thing is that when you're doing the second one, now you have a second party who is contractually obligated to be very interested in reading your book. Rekka: 06:34   Yes. Not just whether it's good or not, but where the entire plot is going. Kaelyn:           06:40   Yes. And you're not going to have an editor that doesn't care about the book period, but now you've got an editor that is very, very interested in this because you've got a story to tell that is not yet written. Rekka: 06:57   And to be fair, if you've been picked up for a partially written trilogy, chances are you've already talked to your editor. Kaelyn:           07:05   There is a very, there is a very good chance. And again, debut authors are not generally at a point in their career where publishing houses and editors are willing to just let them go. Yeah, sure. Let's see how it goes. So they're probably gonna want to talk to you beforehand, find out, um, you know, so I love these characters. I love the setting. I love when this story is going, what's going to happen? Rekka: 07:24   Yeah. Kaelyn:           07:25   Um, with the understanding that that could change as you work through things. Rekka: 07:30   Absolutely. Kaelyn:           07:31   Um, but you will probably have had that conversation. So how is this time going to be different? Rekka: 07:39   One, you're on a deadline. Kaelyn:           07:41   And that's a new and exciting thing and we talked about that in what you're working on next. Rekka: 07:46   What are you working on next. But um, this one is a deadline in your contract, um, specifically. Kaelyn:           07:52   Yeah, this one's like a deadline deadline. Rekka: 07:54   You probably know when you sign your contract, when you need to have this one handed in by. Kaelyn:           07:59   Yeah. Um, so you're going to be working on deadline and you're going to be working with someone who is giving you professional feedback. And I will just say this, that you're required to work with. Um, I don't mean like at most authors I know love their editors and look forward to working with them, but this is somebody that like, you can't just leave an opinion out in the writing group. You have to listen to this person's opinion and they're going to have opinions. Rekka: 08:28   You might be able to debate them a little bit. Kaelyn:           08:30   Definitely debate them. When I say listen to, I mean you have to take it into consideration. You may be able to debate them, you can discuss things, you can come to an understanding. Rekka: 08:37   You can figure out like, okay, I was going this way and you want me to go way over here. What else can we do that we'll both like. Kaelyn:           08:43   You can't ignore this person. Rekka: 08:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:           08:46   Um, and again, I can't really think of any authors off the top of my head who don't like wha - Rekka: 08:55   I'm making faces at her. I do. I do know, because professionally speaking you are, you are on team editor so you probably not going to hear as many stories about authors who don't like their editors. Kaelyn:           09:08   First of all, I'm on Team Author. That's my job as an editor, but - Rekka: 09:12   Well played. No, but you know what I'm saying? Like socially, within the industry, you talk to other editors a lot. Kaelyn:           09:22   That's true. The other thing is that, um, authors, I think because they know I'm an editor, are reticent to say anything about our breed in general/ Rekka: 09:27   Or because you aren't a close friend, they're not going to spill their emotional baggage on you about how their editor's running them through a pepper grinder on this, you know, their second book. Kaelyn:           09:39   It's only because we want to enhance the flavor. Rekka: 09:43   So fun fact pepper makes everything taste good because it opens up your pores and your taste more of it. Anyway, back to what we were saying. Um, your editor wants to open up people's tongues, uh, pores. Uh, yeah. Okay. No, but what I am trying to say is that I do personally know authors who are having a grueling time working on their second book with the editor of their publishing house. Kaelyn:           10:06   Out of curiosity, is it a grueling time because it's a lot, or is it because they don't like their editor? Rekka: 10:12   It's a grueling time because the editor keeps checking their outlines back at them and saying, no, not that do something else. Kaelyn:           10:18   So here you go. Somebody who's going to have opinions. Now, it's interesting what you said outline. Every editor works differently, but a lot of times when you're working on subsequent books in, uh, the tr, you know, a trilogy or a series, what have you, you're going to start with an outline, agree on that and how detailed it is will depend on the editor of the book, the, you know, how intricate the things are that you need to pay attention to. Um, and then you're just going to kind of be sent along on your way, you know. Okay, go write that. Um, you know, like we said at Parvus, I'm a little more involved in the actual day to day writing portions of this, but the whole point is you're going to have to take someone else's opinion into account before you sit down to write what it is you're going to be writing. Rekka: 11:11   I think that is a lot more enticing for many authors than you might imagine. Kaelyn:           11:17   Well, it sounds nice until you're actually doing it. Rekka: 11:20   I'll let this one slide, we'll bring it back later. Kaelyn:           11:24   Okay, look your editor is your partner in this. They're going to want to help you make this the best book it can possibly be. So every relationship, every dynamic is different. But um, you know, maybe you're excited about having another opinion to bounce things off of. I do know some people that just want to be left alone to write their book as they want to write it. And it's a little bit of a rude awakening going like, no, here's this person that you have to talk to about all of this now. Rekka: 11:56   So I break the mold in this sense because I had an entire first draft of my second book before I signed with um, Parvus on book one because as we've covered before, I plan to self publish this. And so what I was planning to do was write all three before I even released the first one so that I could release them close together, get some, you know, dopamine rush from Amazon's algorithm playing into all that. So I, I had gotten a lot further in this then I think is being proposed here as the typical experience. Kaelyn:           12:28   Yeah, and it's interesting because at Parvus we have a few standalone books, some that are turning into trilogies and then some things that we bought at trilogies. So uh Scott Warren's the Union Earth Privateers trilogy, which was the first book we ever got, Vick's Vultures, fantastic book. Definitely check it out. And then he was signed up for trilogy. Now I will say that I did not, I have not really done any work on Scott's books. Um, but he had a plan of where this was going. That was discussed when we said, okay, trilogy. But that was really the only one that we kind of worked on where the author didn't really have much on paper beforehand. Rekka as you just said, uh, you know, had a draft of her second book and knew where the third book was going. Um, you know, things have changed roughly. Rekka: 13:25   Very roughly. Kaelyn:           13:35   But you did know some people like I, I am surprised sometimes when I talk to people and they're like, I don't know, I'll figure it out. And we were joking about this before we started recording because I'm such a planner and a plotter. So like the idea of not knowing how your story ends is like has me like clutching my pearls and gasping and um, but then Christopher Ruz, who's uh Century of Sand Rrilogy, the first book, The Ragged Blade also did an episode and interview episode on this go back. That was episode six, I believe. Um, let me go back and check it out. Really cool about traditionally publishing something that was previously self-published. So that meant that he had books one and two completed already and three like a pretty finished draft. Ruz now in a position, and you were as well, I'm sure where the trickle down changes from the stuff in the first book now have to be addressed in the second book if it's written. Rekka: 14:24   You're referring to the editorial changes that came back from the publisher. Kaelyn:           14:27   Exactly. Rekka: 14:27   Yeah. So I had the advantage of, uh, Colin Coyle kind of gave me some feedback. Uh, Parvus's publisher, uh, kind of gave me some feedback at the beginning of the process that wasn't officially from my editor, but it was something that he brought in and, and those were actually the biggest changes of the, of the process. And, um, he said something that made me realize that he'd misread a scene like the way I intended. It was not the way I came across, which is a good bit of feedback to have. And so by going into fix what he saw, I fixed it for one. Yay. Um, but also I gave myself a little bit of something that has come in extremely, extremely plot devices for the following books and I don't know what book to would have looked like if I hadn't put that in there just to fix a scene so that it was read correctly and now all of a sudden it became a major element. And so that was beneficial to me because it actually tightened things up for me going forward. On the other hand - Kaelyn:           15:39   Yeah, we've been slowly unraveling, um, everything that, uh, that he's been doing. Um, again, I, this is, you know, Episode Six is about traditionally publishing a previously self published book, but there is a lot of talk in it about the changes that we made him go in there and make. And that was just the first book. Um, so the ripple effect out through the second and third is massive. I shouldn't say ripple. We're dealing with small tsunami type things at this point. And he's, don't get me wrong, he's handling it like a champ. But like, it's not that the changes are bad or even difficult, it's that it's a lot to go back and make sure you catch everything. Rekka: 16:26   In the continuity of something that you already know Kaelyn:           16:29   And account for everything. And this is why, um, going into our next point here, I very much like when I'm starting with an author to know where the book is going. You know, I had said like, I am, I am a plotter, I am a planner. Um, I have a rule with the authors I work with. You have to tell me how it ends. Rekka: 16:50   Wheras just for contrast. Um, Ryan Kelly is my editor at Parvus at the moment. And, uh, I asked him if he wanted to see the outline for book three because we had not talked about where it was going. And he's like, yeah, you could send it over. Where's Caitlin would have been like, what? It exists. Why don't I have it? Kaelyn:           17:02   Why don't I have this right now? No, I mean, you wouldn't even send me an outline. I'd be on the phone with you going like, okay, but just tell me what happens. Part of that is because, you know, we buy stories that we love and I am very impatient. Um, I really always just need to know how something ends. Um, so part of it is just a personal, like, I need to know what happens here! Rekka: 17:25   Kaelyn loves spoilers. Kaelyn:           17:26   I don't actually stay far away from spoilers. Rekka: 17:29   Well, as you've said, you didn't want to know how my trilogy ends because you want to experience it as the reader. Kaelyn:           17:35   Exactly. Um, but as an editor, as an editor, I know certain books are going to need things seeded in the beginning of it. So I kind of want to know how everything's going to make sure that it fly off the rails at the end or we're dropping in something that came out of nowhere that readers are going to go, well hang on a second. Rekka: 17:56   So you bring up a really good point because these are the kinds of things that your editor can point out, um, about structure, about. Like you need to Chekov this rifle. You know, like you need to make sure that people feel satisfied by this even if they weren't expecting it, that it's grounded in the reality of your world building or your plot or whatever, or things you've introduced,. Kaelyn:           18:29   A, a twist ending or a big reveal as only as good as you've set it up to be. Rekka: 18:29   Right. Kaelyn:           18:29   Like it needs to feel surprising, yet inevitable readers should be able to go back - Rekka: 18:36   And see all the clues, Kaelyn:           18:37   And find points where they're like, Oh, okay, I got it. Rekka: 18:40   So like for example, the movie Memento. Kaelyn:           18:42   Yes. Rekka: 18:43   That is one where you watch it the second time you're like, damn, this was all in here. Kaelyn:           18:48   If you want to take it even further Fight Club that is, you know, the weirdness of that movie aside despite the groups that have co-opted it's uh =. Rekka: 18:57   Okay. So yeah. Kaelyn:           18:59   It's still a great movie. Um, but the book even too, and you know, obviously they had to do things very different in the book in the movie, but you go back and watch that and you're like, yeah, no, okay, I see it now. Um, so depending on the nature of your book and depending on where it's going, that's something your editor is going to be very interested in. Rekka: 19:18   But not only that, but as I was starting to say, as an author, you really should want someone who's, who's got that second pair of, you know, critical eyes, um, figureative eyes to put it on your story and say like, Oh, that's what you're doing with this. Well here's what I suggest before we put out book too. Cause like book one's already, you know, pretty much signed, sealed and delivered to this man. If you haven't got it seeded book two before it gets published while you're in revisions for that is a great place to seed those elements that are going to make it more satisfying when you bring it in for the landing on number three. So your editor's going to say, Oh, that's where you're going. Well what if we do this? You don't want someone who isn't paying attention to where the story's going because they might guide you into a corner that you can't get to that ending anymore. Kaelyn:           20:05   Yeah, and this is one of those, uh, you know, writers I think a lot of times fall into the problem, which is a totally understandable problem of can't see the forest through the trees. Having an outside perspective where sometimes editors are picking out parts of the book that are more important than the writer realizes they are. Um, you know, I always say like your favorite part of the book might not be the best part of the book. Rekka: 20:35   Your favorite part of the book is probably a turn of phrase or a certain scene and emotional feelings. Kaelyn:           20:40   I am, I thought, I always ask authors, especially like, you know, when they're, the books published or something or you know, okay, we've got the final draft, you're done. What's your favorite part of the book? Every single time I've been surprised. Rekka: 20:53   Really. Kaelyn:           20:53   Um, just because it's a personal thing and there maybe, you know, it might even have something to do with what was going on with you when you were writing it, but the whole point is that you're, you know, a detailed outline that you're providing to an editor is going to allow them to look at this with a bigger perspective of what is happening in this, what is happening in the characters, what the growing themes in the book are and where the setting and the plot is headed. And that is something that a lot of times now trilogies are being bought in such a way that the first book is sold and then the second and third, not always, but you know, they may buy all three at once or they could say second and thirds contingent upon, you know, what's going on with the first. So listeners, I'm sure you'll notice that with a lot of trilogies, and by the way, YA especially does this a lot. The first book kind of wraps up to a point. There are definitely lingering things. There's plots to build off of stories, problems to resolve, but the first book kind of wraps up and then two and three seems to completely take on a new life of its own. Um, again, very, very common in YA. Rekka: 22:11   And that's because you don't know if that's going to be it. Kaelyn:           22:14   Yeah, exactly. Um, so getting an outline with this stuff, um, things could change very much after, after book one, but the outline and the perspective that it's going to give the editor is really important to help the writer get through this process and get to the, I don't want to say satisfying because that implies a happy ending. Rekka: 22:38   There's a difference between like, inevitable conclusion, you know, like not feeling like you spent all your credit in the first book. Kaelyn:           22:49   Exactly. Yeah. Um, one of the examples I always give with this is, um, Cassandra Claire, do you know who she is? Rekka: 22:59   The Mortal Instruments? Kaelyn:           23:00   Yeah. Um, which that must of, that first book must have been published coming up on 20 years ago, which is so strange to think it's that old it is. But she was kind of one of the pioneers of what we now call urban fantasy. Um, like I remember being a teenager and picking up that book as someone gave it to me and was like, you have to read this. And I actually remember looking at this going, this is set in a city that's boring. That's not how this kind of stuff should go. And so anyway, you know, this was saying this to qualify that like this was kind of a new thing they were trying to figure out. But, um, then reading an interview with her that she did, um, explaining that she had to give them an incredibly detailed outline of where all of these books were going. And this is, you know, I don't know if anyone listening has read these, but the last book is full of twists, turns, reveals, shocking identities, you know, and so they wanted to see, okay, where's the groundwork that you're laying for this to get to this ending? Rekka: 24:13   And especially for the publisher, if this book is supposed to put that genre on the map, they need to make sure that this is the standard that people are going to hold it. Kaelyn:           24:21   Yeah, there were, if I'd be very interested to see if anyone kind of like has ever sat down and figured this out. I'm sure someone has. But there were a bunch of urban fantasy things that all came out around that same time. And I would argue that of that initial like group of releases, hers was far too, she's still writing these, um, they just keep giving her contracts to write trilogies in, in this world. And like now she is to the point where she can just go, I don't know, I guess one about this character? Excellent here, have some money. Rekka: 24:52   Um, life goals. Kaelyn:           24:54   Yeah. Yeah. But um, well, I mean she had like a movie, a television series, you know, they were not great. Rekka: 25:02   Well, I have often said that my dream film result for anything I write would be that the film is optioned, the option is renewed and renewed and renewed. It never happened and it's tied up in options and I keep getting paid for it and nobody ever touches it and makes people mad about it. Kaelyn:           25:23   I always joke that like, you know, if I ever wrote a book or like even if they were like going to, you know, some part of this book got a option for a movie and they'd be like, we want to do this. My answer would be cool. Uh, I'm going to go to film school, I'll come back, I'll come back to you in three or four years because I'm in charge of this. I don't trust you. Rekka: 25:45   I've had conversations with Kaelyn, um, outside of recording these podcasts and this is so 100% true. Kaelyn:           25:53   I don't trust you to do this the right way. Rekka: 25:56   And look, the thing is you're not wrong. Kaelyn:           25:58   That's the thing. Rekka: 25:59   Track record is more 90% likely that this series is not going to be handled carefully or correct. Kaelyn:           26:05   Well, I will say, and just a funny little side story, um, Necropolis PD, I gave my cousins and my aunt copies of this book and they were like, I could see this as, you know, this movie. And they're already casting it and listening to them cast it is infuriating me because they're casting all of these young, very handsome, you know, debonair men for the character of Jacob Green. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, go read Necropolis PD it's a fantastic book. Rekka: 26:34   Do go read it. Kaelyn:           26:35   Um, and I'm already fighting with them going, no, it's not. No, that's not what he's supposed to look like. That's not, he's supposed to act. So yes. Um, no one touches these books except us. Anyway, so your editor is going to be far more involved in the structure of the book then they were the first time around when you were working on this by yourself. Rekka: 27:03   Because I promise you this is a very good thing. Kaelyn:           27:03   Yeah, Rekka: 27:07   I really think it is. I mean like yes, you're going to have your outlying cases where like this is not the, the system that works best for you. But I think many authors I can speak for are always wondering if they're doing the right thing for their series. Are they taking it in the right direction? And this is a checks and balance. Kaelyn:           27:24   This person is legally obligated to talk to you about this. Rekka: 27:27   And it matters to me so much that my trilogy stick the landing. Kaelyn:           27:33   Yeah. Rekka: 27:33   Cause I mean my experience with so many books series is, well one you of course have the ones that get canceled before they're finished, which is horrible. Um, but two you have the ones that it feels like the author just kind of ran out of ideas or didn't have a clear plan and they kept setting up fantastic, wonderful world-building and situations and politics but didn't know how to resolve the situation. Kaelyn:           27:55   *cough* Game of Thrones. Rekka: 27:58   Yeah, sorry. Something in our throats. But it matters to me so much and I want somebody else's opinion on this. Kaelyn:           28:08   Yeah and I mean this is generally, you know, we've talked before about like working with an editor. You can go back and listen to our episode Will My Editor Tells Me It's Shit? And um. Rekka: 28:18   You guys love your books and you just want to talk to people about them, but you also want to be sure that you're handling them well. Kaelyn:           28:24   Am I doing it right? Rekka: 28:25   Am I doing this right? Kaelyn:           28:27   Here's the thing. Rekka: 28:28   Yeah. I mean, go ahead. Kaelyn:           28:30   There's no right. Rekka: 28:31   Yup. Kaelyn:           28:31   Because you've got to be the one to decide what's right for your book. Rekka: 28:34   Okay. So this is not me saying, dear editor, how do I finish this? Kaelyn:           28:39   Yes. Rekka: 28:39   This is like, okay, here's what I'm seeing. Kaelyn:           28:41   Yep. Rekka: 28:42   Does this satisfy the arc that's been set up across the series so far? Kaelyn:           28:46   Do you feel like as a reader of this rather than a creator of it, that you think this came to a good, satisfying, logical ending and they're going to point to spots and say, well this feels like it might be a little thin here or this feels like a jump or this doesn't seem in keeping with the character, that's what they're supposed to do. Rekka: 29:05   And you get those things before this. And this is the point of this whole episode. You get these things before you've invested two years in polishing a manuscript. Kaelyn:           29:13   From, you know, the editor side of things. Um, I try to be sensitive and aware of the fact that this person who was working on this before had pretty free reign to do what they wanted with it. Now granted, I probably did take it and make them - Rekka: 29:31   Right. And that's. Kaelyn:           29:31   And make them do some stuff and that's the baby step into, into the end of the pool. Um, but I personally, and I think most editors will do this, you know, is the, the check in, how are you doing? How are you feeling about this? Anything bothering you? Is there parts that you want us to work on or pay attention to more? Are there any parts that you don't feel great? Are there parts that you really feel great about? And then those are the ones I make them go change. Rekka: 29:59   Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. It's like every conversation when you get revisions back from your editor, you're like, yeah, I knew that part wasn't quite right. Kaelyn:           30:09   Very rarely do I get, um, you know, Rekka: 30:11   Shock and surprise. Kaelyn:           30:14   Of like no, that was perfect. Rekka: 30:14   That's exactly how I pictured it. Kaelyn:           30:16   Yeah. Um, very rarely. Um, writers I think don't give themselves enough credit a lot of times for how aware of the strengths and weaknesses of their own books they are. Rekka: 30:26   Well, so often I go to my editor because I've gotten to the point where I know something's funky about it, but I don't know where the smell is coming from. Kaelyn:           30:34   Every time I get a draft back from Ruz, the note in the draft is something like that. Just take it. Rekka: 30:39   I never want to look at this again. Kaelyn:           30:42   Um, yeah, exactly. Rekka: 30:44   Sorry. I thought it was talking about myself. Um, Kaelyn:           30:47   Oh, so that's not just him. That's all of you. Rekka: 30:49   All of us. Well that's what I'm saying. You know, like, yes, we, we know something is wrong, but the, when the relief we feel when the editor pinpoints, the thing that we couldn't see is amazing. The editor's job is to wipe the petroleum off the lens so you can see in sharper detail like where the work needs to happen. Kaelyn:           31:11   Yeah. And bringing it back around is that okay when you're doing a second, third X number book, especially within the same, um, you know, at the same trilogy or just in the set, in the same world with maybe the same characters. Um, the editor is going to be involved a lot more from the beginning. Now, you know, as Rekka says a lot of times that's exciting and that's a good thing to have. Um, but I would like to point out that this is somebody now who, I was joking before, you're legally obligated to take their opinions into account, but you're legally obligated to take their opinions into account. Because here's the thing, if I guarantee you in your contract, there is a clause that says we're not publishing this if we're not happy with it. Rekka: 31:58   Right. I mean, okay - Kaelyn:           31:59   Acceptance of the manuscript is, is a big, it's a short clause that it's got big implications. Rekka: 32:09   Yeah. Kaelyn:           32:09   And you know, I'm not trying to say this to scare anyone, like, well, if I don't do exactly what they say, they're going to cancel my contract. It's not that. And if you're working with somebody who would do that, you probably don't want to be publishing with them, but you have to take into account that yes, your editor is your editor and they're on the creative side rather than the business side of this. But at the end of the day, there's probably a sales and marketing team behind them that is saying, look, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that you know, the book has already come out your first book. And they're saying it's sold to really well in this demographic. Um, the feedback we're getting, people really like this part. Rekka: 32:55   All of our five stars come from this genre reader. Kaelyn:           32:58   Exactly. They're not going to make you rewrite everything based upon that. But that is absolutely something that will be taken into account. So if they're saying, look your books - Rekka: 33:10   If you lean away from that group of readers. Kaelyn:           33:13   Maybe your book was borderline YA and the YA community just pounced all over it and this became, you know, a runaway success within that group. But then book two is taking a really hard left. Rekka: 33:27   Or it takes place 20 years later and they're no longer any youths to be. Kaelyn:           33:32   Yeah, actually that's interesting. You'd probably get around that. Say this is the thing, if you pose these things to me, I'm going to try and come up with solutions for them. Um, but it's taking a really hard left into something that is not going to appeal At all to the large readership of the first book. That's going to be a conversation. Rekka: 33:48   Right. I mean, so I always read that clause more as you phone in the manuscript. We are not going to print it, which is - Kaelyn:           33:59   Yes, that's an obvious implication. But there is that second layer of - Rekka: 34:02   Where you saw this going is not where - Kaelyn:           34:04   We're not sure we can get anyone to read this. Um, you know, if you are writing a book about, this is the thing, anything I say here, I'm going to put ideas in Rekka's head. Rekka: 34:17   Either that or you're looking around to my studio and you're going to get ideas and you're just going to end up describing one of my stories that I've already written. Kaelyn:           34:26   There's a lot of figurines around here I can. So if we, you know, if you're writing a book about like super powered, uh, teenagers, you know, trying living in their secret hideaway and trying to find out, you know, trying to gain contact with the aliens who made them this way or what have you. And uh, you know, we end on a, we've made contact with them. Let's see what happens. And then in the second book it turns out it's not aliens, it's Godzilla, but like actually Godzilla and like no aliens and it's, your editor is going to look at that and go, this is not what your first story was about and this is a trilogy. Rekka: 35:08   And this is not what your first story was setting up because each story is like, you know, your first sentence or into your first paragraph, your first book is going to earn you the readers for the second book. In fact, those are going to be, you know, the readers who care the most about what happens in book two because they've already read book one. Kaelyn:           35:24   And I think we kind of, you know, we want to give writer,s creators for that matter as much autonomy to, create the way that they see things going. Um, you know, you'll see on Twitter all the time like, and it's correct that authors are not obligated to readers. They are not there to write what you want them to write. Rekka: 35:53   It's not fan service. Kaelyn:           35:54   Exactly. I agree with all of that. But I will say that people who have invested time, money and emotional mental energy in your book deserve to not then be kicked in the ass. Rekka: 36:11   So like if you're having an idea that's so far off the board from what you set up in your first book, just save that for the next series, you know? Kaelyn:           36:20   Or you know, I'm going to talk to you, your editor about it. I guess if there's like, if it's, if you planned that all along and you've, you know - Rekka: 36:25   And this is another thing, it's like if you know where that was going, if you planned it all along, make sure they know that before book one revisions are done because maybe they can help you set that up so it won't surprise and ass kick anybody. Kaelyn:           36:37   But again, you've probably already talked to your editor about this. And so again, this is where the accepted manuscript clause comes into play. Depending on how detailed you got and depending on you know, what their plan was for you and your book and your marketing and stuff. There may actually be specific things written into the contract about the book, which I know sounds like such a crazy micromanaging type thing to do Rekka: 37:02   But it's, it shows the more detail that you know about the series when you're signing the contract, the more detail will appear in the contract. You know, like if you don't know what, if you don't know that it's going to be a trilogy for sure, but they want your second book, they're going to say in an unnamed science fiction novel of no less than a hundred thousand words or whatever. But if they know that it's going to be the sequel, then it's a sequel set in the same world. Kaelyn:           37:28   Or yeah, they will put in their set in the same, you know, whatever legal words they're going to use. But world of the first book of this with the same characters with the same, you know, basically what they're doing is they're telling you we want more of this, Rekka: 37:41   We want more of exactly this. Um, don't pull a fast one on us. Kaelyn:           37:46   So if you come back with something that is completely not that they will, they're probably won't accept the manuscript. Rekka: 37:52   Well, they can just point to the contract and look, look, that's not what we bought. Kaelyn:           37:56   Yeah. It's not meant to be scary. I'm not trying to like freak anyone out by, uh, by saying this, you know, it's just something to keep in mind. Rekka: 38:01   And in fact, she really doesn't mean for this to be scary because the whole point of this episode is, Hey, you get to work with a buddy, you have a safety system. Kaelyn:           38:10   Exactly. Rekka: 38:10   And this, and somebody that you can just go, okay, I wrote this chapter. I can't tell if I'm hitting it, you know, and just like you can get a response back within a reasonable timeframe and it says, yeah, no, this is great. Keep going. And like who gives a thumbs up every now and then, like on demand is really awesome. Kaelyn:           38:28   Good job. Rekka: 38:29   And also correction, you know, like path correction. If you aren't really, you know, if if feel weak about it, is it nerves or is it really bad and your editor can tell you. Kaelyn:           38:40   Yup. So, um, Rekka: 38:42   Okay, but that okay, but here's the one thing that's weird about this whole process. Your editor before has seen you at your best. You're polishing the script now. Now you are, you are going to show them the piles of dirty laundry on the floor of your bedroom. Kaelyn:           38:55   No, no one is surprised by the curtain being pulled back. Rekka: 38:59   But it's different. Kaelyn:           38:59   It's different. Yes. Um, Rekka: 39:01   I definitely know that. I don't make my sentences, you know, they're not the final sentences in the first draft. Kaelyn:           39:08   Yeah. Um, no one is surprised by the current being pulled back here. That's not, you know, anything that is going to shock and horrify your editors. Anytime you get a draft back, there's going to be an understanding of how rough it is. You know, like if it's like, look, there are sentence fragments in here. There are parts where I trailed off and started drawing in pictures of the pizza I was going to eat after this. Rekka: 39:29   There's pizza inside. Kaelyn:           39:31   So there's expectations there. There's realistically adjusted perceptions Rekka: 39:37   But it is weird too, to feel like you were on your best behavior and now suddenly like this is, this is you with it all hanging out. And not only that, but like you're coming to them with a little bit of like, Oh, I don't know, like I need help with this. Like not only like did you pretend to have it all together and know where the series was going when you sign the contract. Um, now like they're seeing it at its scrappiest and, and you are asking for like, what should I do next with this? Kaelyn:           40:05   Yeah, yeah. Rekka: 40:06   But conversations you have are going to be so exciting and ideas thrown back and forth and all that kind of like, they want this to be the best. Kaelyn:           40:14   I mean, my favorite part of editing books is, is the plot. Um, you know, Rekka: 40:19   So that's good for people who need help with the plot. Kaelyn:           40:22   Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, my absolute favorite thing is I'll ask Ruz if maybe it's okay if I put a picture online of like one of the things that I sent him, but um, it's like I love just getting a piece of paper sitting down, writing out this happens, this happens drawing arrows and circles and dots and you know, paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence in court against us. But I love doing that and I end up with some truly bonkers looking pieces of paper but it's, it's so much fun. Rekka is far more organized. She has post-its and, Rekka: 40:57   Thumbtacks and index cards. Kaelyn:           40:57   Spreadsheets, and color-coded index cards. Rekka: 41:02   So this does make me feel like we should add the caveat of you are working directly with a lot of unagented authors. Kaelyn:           41:13   Yes, yes we are. Parvus has a lot of unagented authors. If you have an agent, however you're going to be working with them a lot. Rekka: 41:22   Yeah. This, this might be a process while you are on submission with the first book, which again, same, same issue where the editor at the publisher may cause some the catastrophic ripples. But you can still work with a buddy and you might even get the buddy system in a little bit earlier in the process. Kaelyn:           41:42   Yeah, agents over the last few years, I would say probably, especially within the last decade, but before that as well have really taken on much more of an editorial role. Rekka: 41:53   And not all of them still not like there are plenty that are pretty hands off once you've sold the property. Kaelyn:           41:58   But um, you know, it's very normal before, you know, when an agent takes you on as a client and you decide what they're going to try and sell for you, it's very normal for them to give editorial suggestions and direction. Rekka: 42:11   When we talk to Caitlin McDonald, she said that she will probably go over a story at least twice. Kaelyn:           42:16   Yeah, exactly. And um, you know, depending on the agent, how polished it's going to be when, you know, they try to sell. It probably depends partially on who they're trying to sell it to and um, what editors, they know, how they work and what they're going to be looking for. But for your other books, again, it depends, varies agent to agent. Rekka: 42:36   I know authors whose agents will definitely be editorial for the book that goes on submission. But after that they don't want to steer the, uh, the author and the incorrect direction when the editor might come back and, and - Kaelyn:           42:49   Yeah, they'll kind of go, well that's you and your editor. That's, you know, what your - Rekka: 42:52   You can copy me on big conversations. Kaelyn:           42:54   Exactly. Yeah. You know, again, it depends so much of this, this industry is so subjective depending on how the person works. Rekka: 43:00   Because there's every person in the mix as a different ingredients and you don't come up with the same, I mean, no book is, you know, direct copy of another. Kaelyn:           43:09   From my perspective, every author is different. Rekka: 43:12   Right. Well that's what I'm trying to say is that each author, each editor, each agent are different personalities with different preferences. And by combining those things, you get a chemical reaction that results in a different kind of book than it would with different ingredients and different people. Kaelyn:           43:26   Yeah. No, and I've mentioned this in previous episodes where we've talked about editorial kind of stuff. And I will say, as I said before, this is me, I can be pretty flexible with how I work. So I try to work with how things work best for the author. If they want to talk to me a lot about this kind of stuff, I am thrilled and over the moon to talk to them. If they really just kind of want to go off into their corner, work on it and come back to me when they have something, that's fine too. Um, you know, I will, they do have to tell me how it is. Rekka: 43:59   Well, yeah. So suppose you, Before they start writing this draft, they've probably already talked to you about the outline. Kaelyn:           44:04   Well that what I mena, and even with the outline, if they want to go into the, you know, go off into their corner, figure out how they do and then come back to me with it. Um, or if they want to talk once every couple of weeks or you know, text me about, that's fine too. I as the editor try to be a little more flexible. I know not everyone does that. I think they try to, if they can, they'll make any reasonable accommodations. Um, Rekka: 44:28   Reasonable accommodations. Like we said, this is, you know, professional situations, still would, it shouldn't devolve into unprofessional like demands on the either side. Kaelyn:           44:32   Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but anyway, the whole point is that, you know, everyone works differently. If I can help accommodate someone to, so that I can get the best possible book out of them. Of course I'm going to do that. Rekka: 44:53   Yeah. New Speaker: 44:54   On that note, uh, one of the things a good editor knows how to do is cut things off when they're taking too long. So, uh, we've been talking for a bit and I think we've said, I think we covered everything we need to. Rekka: 45:04   A couple of chapters that are coming out. Kaelyn:           45:05   Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll do some editing of our own. Rekka: 45:08   We'll blend that, that information into the rest of it. Kaelyn:           45:11   Yeah. So, um, you know, that was a kind of just talking about the difference between writing your second book in a trilogy first your first and we just, we keep saying trilogy just because - Rekka: 45:20   So what we're really referring to is writing a book under the direct supervision of the editor rather than writing a book you hope an editor will buy. Kaelyn:           45:29   Um, we just keep saying trilogy because it's so industry standard at this point. Rekka: 45:33   It is pretty typical. Although, you know, like not always, a lot of really successful stuff become long running series. Kaelyn:           45:39   Yeah and um, I don't know if you've noticed this, but um, again, especially in YA, I'm noticing it's quadrilogies, now we've moved away where, we're upping the stakes here. Rekka: 45:50   Well, I think you see this a lot in um, you know, film and TV also if something's working, give us more of it to sell it to the crowd that already loves it because they're going to show up for it. And it's like, it's very business, salesy minded, but like, hey. Kaelyn:           46:08   Don't you want to sell books? Rekka: 46:09   I mean, think of the, it's not new. Think of the Foreigner Series by CJ Cherry, you know, like this long running series. Nobody says no to them if they're selling, right? So if you've got a built in audience, then you could probably talk your publisher and do a few more series Kaelyn:           46:25   There are series that will go until the author decides time to stop. Rekka: 46:29   Or they die. Kaelyn:           46:30   Or they die. Rekka: 46:30   Then they bring in a second author to work on that series and keep working on it until they say stop. New Speaker: 46:36   es. So, um, anyway, so that was, you know, about working with an editor verse working on your own. Um, hopefully that didn't completely, hopefully that came off not scary. Rekka: 46:50   See, like I said, I see a lot of hope in and um, this is a collaboration now. Kaelyn:           46:56   Yeah, definitely. Rekka: 46:57   You know, so I see a lot of hope in that. It's a very lonely thing to write a book. It's a very lonely thing to write a book. You don't know if anyone will like. So when you can have someone saying, you know, this is working, this is working or you know what, it would be working if we did address this and your editor is not going to write the book for you. So it's not taking away your autonomy. Is it not taking away your creative control, it's just going to steer you towards success both story-wise and hopefully like, you know, sales wise because again, you're both in this because you hope the book will sell in a way that has a return Kaelyn:           47:30   Yeah, exactly. So, um, thank you so much everyone for listening. Um, as always, you can find us online. Rekka: 47:38   Yup. We are @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram. Send us your questions there. You can post them straight onto our wall if you are happy to have those questions, you know, identified under your name. If you are asking a question anonymously, you can DMS on Twitter. They are wide open. So uh, come on in and ask us your publishing, writing and everything in between questions and we'll address them in future episodes. We'll either, if they're a big topic, we can, um, you know, pick those out and do entire episodes or we can - Kaelyn:           48:09   We are open to suggestions. Rekka: 48:10   Yeah. And we, yeah, definitely. But we can also do like a listener questions episode again. We've done one of those after Submissions September. Kaelyn:           48:16   Maybe we'll wrap up the year with that. Rekka: 48:18   Yeah. Maybe a 2019 listener questions a year end review kind of thing. Yes. Um, yeah. So send us your questions. We need them now that we've announced that player in that and you can find us at patreon.com/WMBcast and your support would be greatly appreciated to help us run this podcast and the quality to which you have become accustomed. We appreciate you listening and we especially appreciate folks who leave reviews on Apple podcasts and they've finally decided it's called Apple podcasts. Kaelyn:           48:48   That was, that took a while to. Rekka: 48:50   That did take a while, well they waited for the Apple like, um, event in September and we were waiting to find out what that was going to be. So thank you again for listening and we will talk to you again in two weeks.    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This is the final week of Submissions September, for real this time!  We’re rounding out the month with a short episode of questions, concerns, and follow ups.  We got a few inquires and responses over the course of the month and thought it would be a good idea to wrap up with an episode where we answer them.  Thank you so much to everyone that got in touch and we hope that this month-long walk through of the submissions process was helpful.  If there is anything you’d like to hear about that we didn’t cover, let us know!  We’re always looking for topics for future episodes! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and here’s the thing, Kaelyn’s a long-suffering New York Giants fan and she’s been doing this funny-football-comments-in-the-show-notes bit for the entire month and is curious if anyone has read her weekly rants.  So, the first three people to DM her the score of Sunday’s game (9/29/2019) against Washington get a free Parvus ebook of their choice.  We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast 00:00 Kaelyn Considine (KC): Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, editing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press. 00:11 Rekka / R J Theodore (RJT): And I'm Rekka, I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore. 00:13 KC: And uh, this isn't really an episode episode. 00:18 RJ: It's a minisode. 00:20  KC: Yeah. It's the questions wrap-up. We did get some questions for Submissions September that we wanted to try to provide answers for. 00:27  RJT: Yep, these came in through Twitter and email and conversations we had in person with people so, it is a great little set of specific questions and we ran through them in, not necessarily the order they came in, but the order they would apply to the process. 00:44 KC: Yeah. 00:44 RJT: So it worked out really nicely as a little set of like quick summary... I mean, you obviously won't get everything you would get by listening to the other six episodes of the month but you know it's a good overview and maybe I dunno like a little refresher before the pop quiz next week. 01:02 KC: Absolutely. And no, it seemed like a good way to kind of round out the month. We kept it short, like we intended to. 01:08 RJT: Yeah, so this one, our "short" episode is the length we always think the episodes are going to be. 01:13 KC: But, well, we had a lot of fun doing Submissions September. We won't be doing anything similar to this any time soon. 01:21 RJT: This was a big, big project. 01:22 KC: This was a lot. 01:22 RJT: I think this encompassed three different recording visits. 01:27 KC: I think so. 01:27 RJT: You know, Kaelyn comes in to visit for the weekend and this weekend, in order to finish them all, she had to stay an extra night, and we are done now. 01:33 KC: It's okay cause I got brunch and mini golf out of it. 01:35 RJT: Okay, yes. So we aren't all work, no play. 01:39 KC: So it all worked out in the end and you know, your cats like me now so that's very exciting to me. 01:45 RJT: Yes. 01:45 KC: Anyway, so thank you so much for joining us for this whole month and we hope you enjoy this last episode of just the rounding out of Submissions September. 02:01 MUSIC 02:14 RJT: Well it's been a month, everybody. 02:17 KC: It has been a month. 02:17 RJT: We said this was gonna be a bi-weekly podcast. 02:24 KC: And then we said we were gonna take a month where we do an episode an every week, so it was gonna be four. 02:31 RJT: Yup, and then we said, "hey look we have a lot of interviews, this is too many for one episode."  02:36 KC: And then we had some questions. 02:39 RJT: So we're back with one bonus, final, "hey while it's still September"  02:43 KC: Yeah. 02:43 RJT: Hol' Up A Minute. 02:45 KC: Yeah, welcome. It's Monday, you have to listen to us. Yeah, we ended up with seven episodes. 02:49 RJT: Yeah, let's not do that again. 02:49 KC: No, G-d no. Please. 02:49 RJT: Cause, at this point of time when we are speaking to you in this recording studio, we haven't edited them yet. So we're not even done.  03:04 KC: Very true, but we did have some questions come up over the course of this. If there are things you're still wondering, things we didn't talk about, you know you can still send us questions, maybe we'll do something else like this. 03:16 RJT: These were all sent to us Direct Message and folks didn't say whether they wanted their names used so we're just going to err on the side of privacy. 03:21 KC: Yeah, just you know. Um, if you do wnat us to say it was your name then 03:26 RJT: Let us know. 03:26 KC: Tweet at us. 03:30 RJT: We'll assign credit where credit was due. And some of these were from a couple different directions. 03:32 KC: Yeah, so. Um, so first question: How perfect does my manuscript have to be before I submit it? 03:38 RJT: Yeah. I mean, ostensibly the agent, if you work with an agent, is probably going to do a couple passes with you. We spoke to Caitlin McDonald a couple weeks ago and she said she's gonna do two passes and that sounds pretty common. 03:55 KC: Yeah, that sounds pretty standard. 03:55 RJT: And then they're going to sub it and send to a publisher and the publisher is definitely not going to leave it alone either. So, knowing your manuscript is going to change, how perfect does it have to be? 04:05 KC: As perfect as you can get it. 04:08 RJT: I mean, should I be worried about copyedits or should I just try to catch what I can on my own? 04:13 KC: I know, from my perspective as the acquisitions editor: I do not expect a copyedited document. That said, I do expect a final document. I do expect you've put time and effort into this. 04:25 RJT: So it looks like the final that you would send to a copyeditor and it's just that you might have an opinion on stuff you think could be better. 04:35 KC: And I think it is a little frustrating, some people think like, "Well why do I need bother with that much of if because they're just going to change everything anyway?" And the answer is: You're trying to make a good impression. Also, it's showing me your work ethic. It's showing me the attention to detail and time you put into things and that this is important to you. It is funny because I get manuscripts submitted to us sometimes that I'm like, "I really feel like this is just a working draft, still, somehow." And that's not good, don't do that. 05:10 RJT: And what about manuscripts you get where like the first fifty pages are super tight, super clean, they've clearly been workshopped a couple times but it doesn't carry through the entire thing? 05:20 KC: I appreciate, to an extent, that they knew that I really need to nail the first fifty pages. And the other thing is I don't expect this to be copyedited. Copyeditors are expensive. I don't expect you to do that especially since we're gonna go in and do work on it anyway so we're just gonna get another copyeditor to work on it. 05:40 RJT: So the plot should hold up but you don't have to get all your commas in the right place or a typo or a repeated word. 05:46 KC: Avoid typos, that's.. 05:50 RJT: But I mean, those happen. 05:51 KC: Yeah. I mean, you know, as we always say: Your first couple pages especially, pay very close attention to those. 05:56 RJT: Right, but I'm talking about a three hundred page novel. 05:59 KC: Yeah, if there's A typo in it, it's not the end of the world. There are published novels with typos in them. Not that that's good but it does happen. 06:04 RJT: Right, that's what I'm saying. One person looking at this over and over again is not going to catch everything. 06:11 KC: Exactly. So next question we kinda got, feeding into that... 06:14 RJT: This is sorta into a query letter here. 06:16 KC: Yeah, we're moving into query letter section. What if I don't have any previous publishing credits? Is that a big deal? I mean, no. 06:24 RJT: Every author was a first time author once. 06:24 KC: Yeah. most people don't. A lot of the times when you're querying agents and submitting to open calls of course you don't have any publishing credits. If you did, you'd... I mean, people do leave their agents. 06:40 RJT: Or transition from one to another. 06:40 KC: Or transition and get new ones but I mean, a lot of times you don't have publishing credits, that's why you're looking for an agent. 06:46 RJT: Right, right. And so just to keep in mind you can introduce yourself without you know, puffing this up This isn't like a fake resume or anything like that. If you have an interest or skill related to your manuscript you can mention that but, for the most part, you don't... they don't expect you to say the most impressive thing about yourself. This isn't that party where you have to be that guy. You can just say, like, you know, if there's a gardening aspect in your space opera, just say like, "And I like to garden on the weekends." And you know that's cute. But if the gardening doesn't tie into your manuscript it's not necessary. You can just say..  This would be..you know like, "I am an unpublished author—" 07:35 KC: "I would like to become a published one." 07:37 RJT: Yeah. You're overthinking it, even at this point. Just say, you know, "This is me." 07:42 KC: Yeah, and don't be ashamed of that by any stretch of the imagination. I think there's this intimidation factor where people who are especially trying to submit novels for publication hear about like, people say, "I had this short story published and I had this and this." There are plenty of people who come straight out of the gate to a novel. 08:01 RJT: Right. I did. I'm working stories through submissions process nw, but I had a novel first. 08:11 KC: There's no set linear way to do this. It's. you know, you come into where you come into. There's... it's not... you're not ticking off boxes and then you get to query an agent or submit a manuscript. 08:24 RJT: And I didn't have anything that I could speak to. I was a graphic designer which is cool but it's not pertinent. So I really had very little to say about myself in my query letter, which I read to you during the query week anyway.  08:36 KC: Yes. 08:41 RJT: So go back and listen to it if you're worried about it. But I don't have an MFA and an MFA is not a prerequisite to getting a novel purchased. 08:46 KC: No, G-d no. 08:46 RJT: I don't... I didn't major in English. I took one essay writing class at art school.  KC: Okay, then. RJT: It was pretty much just to spare the art history teachers a couple of classes of having to go over this every semester. Yeah. Don't stress it. You wrote a book, you know, so be proud of that and you know, like I said, you don't have to inflate it. You don't have to be extra humble. Just, you know, write your query letter. 09:18 So, you've sent in this query, however it needed to be written, and you have checked the publisher's submissions guidelines and you know that thay're gong to tell you to expect a response after such and such number of days they might even invite you to reach out and check on it if it's been this long. Or you see on Twitter, "hey we've gone through our entire submissions pile so you should have heard from us." 09:44 KC: "Thanks for submitting." 09:44 RJT: So, what do you do if you have't heard back at that point, in either case? 09:52 KC: Well I mean, if they say you know... like at Parvus we say ninety days for you know follow up the query with us. Here's the thing, if you haven't heard back from me in 90 days there's a good chance I just haven't gotten through the pile yet. It's funny, we say 90 days because that's just a good amount of time but like we get hundreds and hundreds of these when we open for submissions so depending on what's going I may not start reading them immediately. As they're coming in. I try to stay on top of it but that's just not always possible. 10:28 RJT: I know I've heard that some agents for example, will read the query letters and then divert some of those to like hey check this out soon. So they go through the query letters and get through the rejections just based on the query and then they'll go through like the next round of consideration is to open the document and check it out but that may not happen as fast as they read the letter. 10:53 KC: Yeah, I mean, sometimes I can get through these pretty quickly. Sometimes I can't. If you haven't heard back and they say, "feel free to reach out to us," feel free to reach out to them. The response you're probably going to get back is "Yeah I'm still working through everything." 11:06 RJT: Yeah. 11:08 KC: Don't be rude. Don't... 11:12 RJT: Cause you are still technically submitting. This is still part of your interview. 11:16 KC: Well, Don't be demanding, I guess. 11:19 RJT: That's what I mean, like, be decent, be polite, be professional. 11:19 KC: Be just like, "They I'm just following up." 11:22 RJT: This is an extension of the first submission you sent. It's an extension of the impression you're making upon them. So acting as though you're tapping your foot and crossing your arms and raising one eyebrow? Is not gonna d you any favors in terms of how your query is going to be judged. Because frankly we're all human and you can't separate that from the experience of reading. 11:43 KC: No, And you know, I understand there is a little bit of a power dynamic here that maybe isn't necessarily fair but at the end of the day you are... you're applying to something. You are asking someone to give you their time and consideration and, I don't wanna say they don't owe it to you because it's not that. If you submit  12:04 RJT: If they invited you to submit, especially. 12:06 KC: They do owe you that but it's not... you don't get to demand that they pay attention to you right that second. And along those lines, if you get a rejection back don't write back and ask for notes cause that's another demanding of someone's time. 12:26 RJT: And thats a level. There are times you might get notes and that generally is pretty promising. It means you might have needed less work that other people in the pile. 12:37 KC: It also means that maybe you were under, you were considered. It was you know "we're happy you sent this to us. It had some things that we thought needed attention." 12:49 RJT: And this is one of those cases where it's an investment of your time as a publisher to finish this book and if this book needs more work than you budgeted for... 12:55 KC: Than you're willing to put into it.  12:57 RJT: Yeah, so. so you send back notes and that person is, at least got that feedback for the net time they submitted this manuscript They can consider it. Now, if you give them notes, and I know this is probably case-by-case, what about Revise & Re-query or Revise & Resubmit. 13:20 KC: Generally I will say like listen, you know, here's some notes. I always... I don't...  I always feel a little uncomfortable sending notes because it's like, especially if they're unsolicited but generally I think they're appreciated. But I usually send a note that's like, you know, "we really liked this. There are these problems. If you wanna take the suggestion or maybe if you want to work with another editor, please feel free to resubmit with us in the future." And a lot of the times, I'll even say, "Please feel free to resubmit, you can send it right.. directly back to me." 13:55 RJT: Rather than needing to go through the digital system. 13:56 KC: Yeah, the usual process. Because sometimes I'm just like, "Yeah, I'm curious to see what they do with this." And I like it flagged that it's like.. cause, again, I get hundreds of these. And even though a lot of times it is something I'll remember, especially if it's something I sent notes back. You know, you never know. If it gets.. 14:18 RJT: If it's three years later or whatever. 14:18 KC: Yeah, if it goes through the regular submissions manager it can absolutely get lost in the shuffle. So yeah I would say just do not be demanding and do not be impatient and you know if you get invited to revise and resubmit absolutely do that.  14:35 RJT: If you get notes back, though, and no invitation to resubmit? 14:36 KC: Do it anyway. I mean. There are some manuscripts that we've had open calls for and every time I get the same manuscript back. 14:45 RJT: Okay.  14:44 KC: That's not necessarily a good thing but you know there's no ... I don't think I've ever read submissions guidelines that are like, "(If you already submitted to us once don't ever do it again."  15:01 RJT: Okay. 15:01 KC: Have you? 15:01 RJT: Well I know magazine you know like they are pretty strict. It's pretty much expected, I don't even know that they come right out and say it, but some of them do, is like, "you have one shot with this story unless we invite you to resubmit." 15:15 KC: Yeah, okay. That's... novels are maybe a little.. 15:20 RJT: Maybe a little different. So I can understand when someone's getting hundreds and hundreds of submissions that you don't want to open it up and go, "Oh, this one again?" 15:25 KC: Yeah you don't want the same thing over and over. Um, I mean, that said, I'm sure people do it. Just do it is creating the work of having to reject it. There isn't really a way to blacklist people from an open submission. Um, if you get invited to resubmit you absolutely should resubmit because that means they probably 15:47 RJT: Were very interested. 15:47 KC: Were very interested just did not have, for whatever reason, could not take it. 15:52 RJT: It needs more work on your side, basically, before a publisher's gonna take it on and do the work on their side.  15:57 KC: Yeah. 15:57 RJT: Okay, so what if you do get accepted in an open submissions? You've got an offer from a publisher. Can you take that offer and find an agent with it? 16:08 KC: A lot of publishing houses are going to want you to do that. 16:11 RJT: Okay. 16:14 KC: So if you go back and listen to the second episode of Week Three which was the first of the author interview episodes. 16:18 RJT: That's Episode 15. 16:18 KC: Episode 15. Tyler Hayes is in it and he talks about how he actually got accepted, his manuscript got accepted, and then he had to go find an agent. If you go listen to our Nebulas interview, we talked to Mark Tompkins who is the author of Last Days of Magic and he talks about the same thing that he got a manuscript accepted and they were like, "Okay cool well where's your agent?" and he's like, "I don't have one." They were like, "Here, call this person. Tell them you need an agent." So a lot of publishing houses want you to have an agent. The answer is they don't always want to deal with authors direct one-on-one. Because when you have an agent you have someone that... 17:01 RJT: Knows how this works.   17:03 KC: Yeah, and they know the contracts and they know.. They're also... agents are also very useful for their connections and what they're gonna help with. So yeah, absolutely if you have an offer and you can find an agent that you can talk to quickly about that might be willing to take you on that's absolutely something good to do.  17:27 RJT: Do you need to have a contract? Or is a phone call where they're saying, "Okay, we're gonna send you a contract in a few days" enough? 17:34 KC: I think it really depends. You have to feel that out. You know if the publisher has said "yes we want to move forward with thus." 17:44 RJT: Okay. 17:45 KC: If you already have a contract definitely.. 17:46 RJT: Get on that. 17:46 KC: Get on it. If they're sending you a contract, same thing, just query 17:54 RJT: And when you query the agent make sure you say, "This has a pending contract." 17:56 KC: Yeah this.. 17:56 RJT: This is easy money for you. 17:58 KC: Yeah. "I have a pending offer." And you know, the agent is going to come in and will, of course want to look at the contract. If you've already signed the contract, that's a whole other... 18:06 RJT: Yeah, the agent's not going to be able to do anything for you and they're not going to be interested because there's nothing for them to do 18:11 KC: Yeah, they can't really... 18:11 RJT: That's... Their portion of income is dependent on what they can do for you in your contract. So if you already signed the contract, they would not be representing you for that book and then therefor this would be okay, the promise of another book? Do you have that book ready? Like what...? 18:31 KC: Yeah the contract... 18:31 RJT: Don't sign the contract first. 18:31 KC: The contract is gonna say in it where to send payment and if it's an agent, what it'll say is, "Rekka Jay, care of" and the agent and the agency. So you know, if you go back and listen to our Money episode [Episode 9] we talk about how if you have an agent, you're not getting a check from the publisher. Your agent is getting the check from the publisher and then the agent is writing you a check. 18:56 RJT: Unless you managed to work out a very special exclusion to that. 18:58 KC: Yeah. So that's not uncommon, that kind of stuff does happen. Like I Said, a lot of publishing houses would rather deal with an agent cause... 19:12 RJT: They're professionals. 19:12 KC: Exactly. 19:11 RJT: And you don't know what the author doesn't know but you have a pretty good idea of what the agent does know. 19:21 KC: Exactly. So yeah, don't be afraid to do that. 19:22 RJT: So if you get a publisher that would retract the offer because you went out to try and protect yourself by getting representation... 19:29 KC: Yeah you probably didn't want to work with that person to begin with. 19:31 RJT: ...You're better off. And I have heard of publishers doing that. Retracting offers based on that. 19:37 KC: Yeah I mean the one scenario in which I would say, "Okay I understand where they're coming from" maybe is if you get, I don't want to say the wrong agent, but an agent who's gonna come in, tear up the tentative deal that you had already, and start asking and demanding a lot more stuff. And then the publisher's gonna go, "This is not worth it for us." 19:59 RJT: Right. 19:59 KC: You know maybe it's a smaller publishing house like Parvus and you've worked out an advance that both sides are comfortable with, you worked out royalty rates, and then the author said, "You know I signed with an agent, I want them to look at it," and they come in and then go, "No, no, no, no, no! You deserve..!" And on the publisher's side we're going, "Look. You know, we're not Random House. We're not Penguin." And maybe your book would not be getting picked up by Random House or Penguin. So we're working on the same level here. So yes there might be some areas where a publishing house retracts an offer but  20:40 RJT: Not usually based on the fact that you went to find an agent in the first place. This is going to be your agent is trying to bowl them over.  20:47 KC: Yeah it might be that or it's because you went and got an agent and then the agent's asking questions like, "hey what about this contract," and they're like, "Nope. Forget it." Then you probably didn't want to work with that publishing house. 20:57 RJT: Yeah. yeah. Because that's why you want an agent is to help you with these legal documents and they know what's reasonable for you to ask for, and a shady publishing house may be hoping that, by going straight to the author, they can grab more rights or something than they would have been able to. 21:15 KC: Exactly.  21:18 RJT: Or write in some nasty clauses about your future works. 21:18 KC: Exactly. So I think that's all of our questions. 21:24 RJT: Yeah, that was it! It was hopefully a nice reprieve at the end of the month. 21:28 KC: It was actually short this time. We always say we're going to keep it short and then we never do. 21:31 RJT: Yeah this one actually did. But I think those questions were pretty straight forward but they were good questions. 21:35 KC: Yeah, good questions.  21:35 RJT: And I know that at least we didn't cover them directly throughout the rest of the month. So, if you have more questions like this please send them on over. You can find us @wmbcast on twitter and instagram. You can find us at Patreon.com/wmbcast and like we said, if you want credit for your questions, say so, because if you sent it to us directly, privately, and not just tweeting at us. 22:01 KC: We assume anonymity. 22:04 RJT: And you know, when you're talking about querying, you feel a little shy about it and like you might get it wrong so you don't wanna leave your name out there for someone to say, "Ha, they didn't know." But no most people don't know when they're getting started so these are good questions. 22:15 KC: So that's officially the end of Submissions September. 22:19 RJT: For real this time. 22:19 KC: Yeah, thanks for sticking with us, everyone. This was fun. I mean.. 22:24 RJT Let us know what you got out of it. Let us know what surprises you heard this month. And hopefully this has you excited for this step of the process if you haven't made it there yet. 22:33 KC: We won't be doing seven episodes in a month again any time soon. 22:37 RJT: Ever. Like, ever. I will walk out of this shed. 22:37 KC: So hope you enjoyed this while it lasted. 22:44 RJT: Yeah we're a little tired but I think it was worth it. This was something that, from the very conception of this podcast, Kaelyn was excited to do, so hopefully Kaelyn is satisfied with our... 22:58 KC: I am.  22:59 RJT: Good. 23:00 KC: Are you? 23:00 RJT: I'm satisfied. 23:00 KC: Alright well thanks everyone so much for listening. We're back to our regular schedule after this. There will be an October 8th episode, and then it's back to every two weeks. 23:13 RJT: Yep. 23:15 KC: So thanks again for listening. 23:15 RJT: We'll talk to you then!

One of our newest faculty members, agent Caitlin McDonald, was kind enough to give us a guided tour of her query inbox. Like #TenQueries on Twitter, this is an honest look at what agents actually receive, what works, what doesn't, and why. Caitlin McDonald is an agent at Donald Maass Literary Agency, where she represents adult and young adult fantasy and science fiction as well as select nonfiction titles. She has worked with numerous award-winning and bestselling authors, created high-profile nonfiction proposals, and been a contracts manager. Caitlin seeks to elevate diverse voices and is always looking for new ways to help aspiring authors. You can meet with Caitlin and book a critique with her here: https://manuscriptacademy.com/caitlin-mcdonald

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and the final episode of Agents Week!  For Part Three we got we spoke with three more agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  This time we’re chatting with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri who share stories, wisdom, and anecdotes about their paths to signing with a Literary Agent. You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and everyone, let’s be real, we’re two games into it and the Giants’ season is over.  Kaelyn would appreciate your support while she waits for hockey season to start. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! J. Hackwith   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.amandahackwith.com https://twitter.com/ajhackwith   The Library of the Unwritten https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/   ===     Jennifer Mace   Represented by Kurestin Armada https://twitter.com/kurestinarmada of PS Literary https://www.psliterary.com/   https://www.englishmace.com http://twitter.com/englishmace   https://www.englishmace.com/fiction/ http://betheserpent.podbean.com/   ===   Nino Cipri   Represented by DongWon Song http://www.dongwonsong.com/ of HMLA http://www.morhaimliterary.com/   https://ninocipri.com/ https://twitter.com/ninocipri   Homesick: https://www.dzancbooks.org/our-books/homesick   Finna: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250245724     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. And when I say another, it's because this is the third one this week. Rekka:00:10   And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:13   I think my name is just third episode. No, I am Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor, Parvus Press. Why did we do this? Rekka:00:21   Hey, you know what? We're going to be so glad when it's done. Kaelyn:00:24   It is good because these were, these were great interviews. So this is the second episode, um, of interviews with. Rekka:00:29   Interviews with authors - Kaelyn:00:29   Interviews with agented authors. So, you know, first episode, if you missed that one, go back and take a listen to that. The, uh, September, Rekka:00:39   How should we even know? Kaelyn:00:39   [laughs] What day is it? Rekka:00:41   Is it September? Kaelyn:00:42   The September 17th episode. Rekka:00:43   Which was with Caitlin McDonald, the Agent. Kaelyn:00:46   Yes. Rekka:00:47   And then on the 18th, yesterday we spoke with Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes, and Caitlin Starling. And today we are speaking with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri. Kaelyn:00:57   Yes. So, um, second episode of agented author interviews. Uh, you know, how they got them, what, Rekka:01:03   Yeah. Rounding out the experiences that we gathered of people who found agents and then those agents are helping them or have helped them find a home for their manuscript. Kaelyn:01:13   Yeah. And um, some good insights here. Yeah. I think in this set of interviews. So, um, we'll stop talking now because I don't know - Rekka:01:21   To talk. Kaelyn:01:23   Words. Um, so everyone, uh, we hope you enjoy and um, so next week will be the last episode of Submissions September and uh, we're going to be doing what is going on, on the other side of things. Rekka:01:35   Kaelyn's side. Kaelyn:01:35   My side. Rekka:01:36   Yes. Kaelyn:01:36   [laughs evily] You are in my realm now. Rekka:01:41   Well not now. Next week. Kaelyn:01:42   Next week. Yeah. Fair. All right. Well thanks everyone so much for listening and bearing with us through all of this. Enjoy the episode. Music:01:57   [music] AJ:       02:04   I'm Amanda. I write as AJ Hackworth. I have a contemporary fantasy coming out October 1st with Ace called The Library of the Unwritten, I tend to write about mythical stuff and gods and sarcastic and families and all that good kind of good staff. I also have two Scifi romances out as Ada Harper. Um, they both came out last year and the first one is a Conspiracy of Whispers. Rekka:02:29   Cool. And you are represented by an agent. Um, you want to say who and tell us, uh, how you found this agent and why you chose them. AJ:       02:40   Sure. I represented by Caitlin McDonald at the Donald Mass literary agency. I, I found Caitlin via tumbler. That's really what made me, made me reach out with her because she seemed to have a lot of the same interests in likes and fandom interests that I did. I so I thought that she would jive on my writing style and so I reached out to her, um, through the slush pile. Basically I just like queried her and was coming up through the slush. It kind of funny because she had my, full of my book, for 10 months, 11 months. It was a long process. I had actually like had like given up and thrown in the towel and it's never going to happen. And I had pitched the most ridiculous romance I could think of to a Karina Press. And then an offer from them came first, uh, just about the same. It's just about the same time that Caitlin was getting back to me about the full, I'm making an offer. So, uh, it was kind of a weird deal that the book that I queried her with, with not actually the first book that came out, but it's been fantastic. Rekka:03:44   Awesome. Very cool. Okay. When you interact with your agent versus, um, when you interact directly with the editor, with your publisher, um, how would you describe one versus the other and when do you go through Caitlin and when do you go through your editor? AJ:       04:02   I tend to go through Cait, went through Caitlin, whenever there's a disagreement, especially if it's one that's a delicate negotiations, delicate to navigate. Um, I like my relationship with the editor should, uh, is, should usually be in the positive and I cc Caitlin on everything. But if there's something that actually needs to be pushed back on or negotiated with, I definitely sometimes let Caitlin trace the language of that just so she has control of that navigation and I can just be the fun one. Rekka:04:35   She's the bad cop. That was one thing she said. So that's, it's good that you're, um, you're using all the tools you have correctly. It sounds like. AJ:       04:43   Well, you know that takes, that's something you have to learn too. Cause like when I first signed, when we were going through the first uh romances, I was more hesitant. I didn't want to bug my agent. Um, which is a common thing that new writers feel like, you know, you, it's a, it's a change in relationship. Cause when you're querying, you feel like you're trying to impress them and get them to like you and stuff. But then when you are, have signed with them, your business partners and that sometimes is a switch for a lot of writers that they are too hesitant to contact their agent when things come up. Um, and so it took a few times of Caitlin gently say, I should cc me on this. Let me, let me handle this. Um, before I understood, um, how before you look at her communication style and how to make that a real partnership. Rekka:05:28   Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now. What about before, um, you had the book on contract to a publisher, um, editing, um, pitching, like getting the, the submissions ready. What was the process with your agent in that regard? AJ:       05:45   Um Caitlin's very nice editorial level. Um, for my, for my tastes, we did line edit, we did developmental edit and then a line edit, um, before we put it on submission. Um, and that was just about the right level for me. I think we got it in a really good place and she had, she, she had her, her touches on enough that I felt like, um, it was strong going out into submission. Um, and then when we'er on submission, you know, it's so important to know your communication style with the mission cause it's a nerve wracking process. And I like, you know, when we went on submission I asked Caitlin at the beginning of it is like, whether it's good news or bad news, I just want to update at least once a month. And it can just be a summary. I don't need the specifics because I wanted those people that the rejection language will stick in your brain forever. And you of course, you forget the good stuff people say. So that worked out really well as soon as she just, you know, gave me a monthly summary of where we were at in the process. Rekka:06:42   Okay, cool. So did you work together on um, putting the submission package together? Um, in terms of coming up with the language that you use to pitch the book to the editors? AJ:       06:54   It was pretty hands off. Caitlin came up with all of that. Um, we discussed just basically, um, she gave me a list of which houses she was going to approach in this round. Um, and and kind of the vague genre of how we're pitching this book. Um, you know, like, you know, contemporary, literary, smart commercial, all those different types. So we really had a basic discussion, but Caitlin really ran with it past that point, which is great. [laughs] This whole, you already had to query the book once.   Rekka:07:25   Right. You don't want to do it again. AJ:       07:26   Well, magic in itself, the whole submission process. So I'm glad to let an expert have the final say of those things. Rekka:07:33   Okay, great. So it sounds like you feel like you're in good hands. AJ:                   Yeah, it's been good. Rekka:07:38   Awesome. So if you were talking to, uh, an author who was looking for an agent, what are some tips that you would give that author as far as, uh, whatever part you feel like maybe people have misconceptions with before they get into it? Um, either with the querying, with finding the agent, with negotiating, et cetera. AJ:       08:01   I think querying, um, you just, you gotta be patient, it's a long, long process and um, there's some great guides out there. I think I found, you know, after I signed as agent was the area where there's not as much information and, and resources for people for how this should go and go. I think the biggest advice I would give is to start as you intend to go on, which you know, how you want to communicate and establish that early on with an agent. And if you're wondering whether you should email your agent about something or whether, whether it's okay to email them about something, the answer is yes. Rekka:08:37   Fantastic. There's that power balance. It must be difficult to say like, okay, now, like that power balance is more like we're partners in this now and the power struggle and that you feel when you're querying doesn't evaporate inside your head. AJ:       08:56   Yeah. And it was, it was really, it was, it was a, a tough transition, especially for me because we went right from signing her representation and to negotiating a contract for the romances. Um, so we didn't have that like getting to know you build up of, of um, the editorial process. I joke with Caitlin that I knew we, we broke the ice right away when like my second email to her was, uh, talking about fanfic tropes and how my book shouldn't like have any ref- You know, my joke is like when they're in my email included en-preg in the second email, you knew it was a [laughs] Rekka:09:32   Well that's awesome because I mean, so everyone knows the Caitlin is human now, but she promises us that all agents are, and it does sound like once you get past this strange like, um, professional dance that there is a chance to just like relax and get into the relationship and get to work. AJ:       09:51   Yeah, and I, and I think also one of the things I've seen with a bunch of my friends uh getting agents as well is that your relationship is going to be unique to that agent if you're not best buddies. And tweeting memes at your agent all day, that's okay too. Like, you know, I have a pretty, I mean Caitlin and I have a great relationship but we just keep it pretty professional. You know, I'm not tweeting her about, you know, whatever the Internet's on about current time. Um, whereas other other agents I know like our, our, like our, our much more, much more of a friendship relationship with their, their clients. And so it just depends on the agent and depends on the author. And there's no wrong way to have a relationship we've had with an agent as long as it's the right way for you, Rekka:10:36   For both sides to, yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And um, why don't you give us your pitch for The Library. AJ:       10:44   Sure. The Library of the Unwritten is the story of the Librarian of the Unwritten Wing, which is the library of all the books that were never quite written. All the stories that were never quite told and it happened to be located in hell Rekka:10:57   Exactly where they go when I failed to write that book. Right? AJ:       11:02   It can feel that way for the author that it's definitely a fantasy about, um, books and writers and readers and also about regret and what happens when your story fails to start. Rekka:11:14   Awesome. So everyone get out there and grab a copy. Thank you, Amanda for joining us today. And um, good luck with everything that you're working on. AJ:       11:24   Thank you very much. It's been great to be here. Macey:11:29   I'm Jennifer Maca. I go by Macy and I am a fantasy author, short story writer, poet and podcaster based out of the Pacific northwest. Despite my accent. Kaelyn:11:42   Wait, that's not what everyone sounds like up there? Macey:11:44   It absolutely is. This is what happens when you move to Seattle. This is the secret. They don't want you to know. Kaelyn:11:49   It's because of the coffee. Macey:11:49   And the rain, I feel. I feel like the rain, helps like really get you in character. Kaelyn:11:55   Gotcha. Well thank you so much for uh, taking some time to talk to us. Macey:12:01   So I'm represented by Kurestin Armada of PA Literary and I guess I have a somewhat normal journey to getting an agent. You know, I did actually query uh, I didn't have an agent descend from the sky and pluck me from Twitter, but I guess it kind of starts with, I went to a workshop called Viable Paradise in 2016 and that was kinda my first step along the road to trying to become a professional author. Right? I had all of these books that I'd been writing for years, but I didn't really know what to do with them. And so this is a workshop that's taught by a bunch of professional authors and editors. And while I was there, they talked about, you know, the query process and that really helped me get together what I wanted to say about my book. And so I actually decided to go out querying with the book that wasn't the one I brought to Viable Paradise because I had two books in my back pocket. And you know, who doesn't? Umm - Kaelyn:13:06   It's, it's very true. I, Macey:13:10   I accidentally did NaNoWriMo every year for eight years running before I decided to try to get published. Kaelyn:13:17   Wait, how does this one accidentally do NaNoWriMo? Macey:13:20   I mean, I kind of describe what I was writing. Like back then as I wasn't trying to write books, I was kind of just like textually role-playing. Kaelyn:13:28   Okay. Macey:13:29   Just I wanted to have adventures and makeup adventures to go on, you know? Kaelyn:13:34   Okay, Gotcha. So, okay. So you were actually just consistently doing this and then certain months you were accidentally falling - okay. All right. Macey::           13:43   Yeah, yeah. Kaelyn:13:44   That's, that's wonderful. I love it. Macey:13:47   I decided that I was going to start querying in sort of March, 2017 and I had won in an auction, a query critique with someone who used to be an agent. Yeah. It was super great. It was a Amy Boggs and she did really great work for me. But while I was waiting to hear back from her, it was actually Pit Mad. The Twitter contest. Kaelyn:14:09   Yes. Yes. I really love PitMad. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Macey:14:14   I have so many friends who got their agents that way or at least got one of their offers that way. PitMad is a Twitter like pitch contest where you tweet a very short summary of your book and kind of some hashtags about what genre it is an agents can go through and like the tweets that they want to hear more about. Kaelyn:14:34   Yeah. So it's just, yeah, it's great because it's, it's kind of, I always think of maybe a little bit of a more low pressure situation. It's kind of like, it's like a market almost where it's just like, Hey, I'm here. I got this thing. Macey:14:46   Right. Exactly. And, uh, one of my first was actually from Kursten. Kaelyn:14:53   Oh, okay. Macey:14:54   And she'd actually already been on my list of agents to query because I am an over researcher. And so I had a very detailed list of agents Kaelyn:15:03   Listen, as an acquisitions editor, I appreciate the over researchers. I love hearing like, Hey, I looked you guys up online and I saw you're interested in this. And I'm like, yes, yes. Somebody who who's paying attention, you know? Macey:15:15   And one of the things that I did end up doing, I queried 12 different agents after Kurestin had asked for my manuscript. Um, because you, you keep trying, right? You never know. These things take time. And every one of them I would look through their manuscript wishlist or look through their profile on their agency and make sure to tweak either, you know, which comp titles did I pick or what parts of my book did I highlight? Not In the plot pitch section, but in the like little blurbs section below that in your query letter. And that's where you can kind of do really subtle, um, personalizations Kaelyn:15:51   I don't know if it helped, but it sounds like it did. And if nothing else, it sounds like it didn't hurt. Macey:15:58   Right. So that was in March, Kurestin asked for the first 50 pages from PitMad and then a month later she asked for the full manuscript. And then I think in late July it was, she reached out and said, you know, let's talk, which is the email you are waiting for. And so we had a really great conversation and I followed up with all of the other agents who had had my full and I decided that no, Kurestin is really the one for me. Kaelyn:16:26   So what made you think that Kurestin was really the one for you? This is another thing that we're seeing when we're talking to everyone that they're like, and I just knew I - Macey:16:37   I'm a very analytical person. Um, so I can probably break it down. Kaelyn:16:42   Um, which by the way, you're going to see, you're one of the only authors I know is like, I have some statistics on this. I've given a lot of thought. There's a spreadsheet with a pivot table. And if you look at the corresponding data here. Macey:16:57   Yeah, no like seriously, um, I have so many spreadsheets with so many like cell formulas. I have an entire automated poetry tracking spreadsheet that moves things in and out of the available to sub column based on where they're submitted to and where they're not. Kaelyn:17:13   That's amazing. And I love it as a, as a big fan of excel myself. That is, Yup, that's phenomenal. Macey:17:21   But um for Kurestin, so one of the things for me, I sent out a total of 12 queries over six months and that's a little bit of a low number for some people. I was being very specific when I was researching about who I wanted to query and I was only querying people who represented fantasy and YA and both adult and why a fantasy and who specifically mentioned LGBTQ or queer or gay somewhere in their profile or their manuscript wishlist and that plus, you know, targeting agencies that had a reputation for selling books kind of cut my choices down a lot. But it meant that I was already kind of confident. So I had a fairly short list of agents and so all of them would be really great choices. But for me, Kurestin had a lot of really great editorial things to say about the particular book that I'd sent to her and really understood what I, where it was going. And we also had a conversation about like longer career plans. Did we want to be in this as business partners for the long term because it's not just about will they sign this one book, but do they want to be your career partner? Kaelyn:18:30   Right. Yeah. And that's, that's really important. And I think that's something that not everyone thinks about going into this is this is a business partner. This is a business relationship. And like you both have to be on the same page about what you're expecting out of it. Macey:18:45   Absolutely. And especially since the project that she signed me for, which was a queer, silky, YA novel, it didn't sell. And so now we're moving onto the next project, which I'm super excited about. But like I asked her on the call, what do we do if it doesn't sell? And she says, you know, we keep working and we try the next thing together. And so that was really great to find or have knowledge of an advance and then not be so scared that I was going to disappoint her. Kaelyn:19:14   Do you actually, I just kind of brought up an interesting, uh, the angle that I think author, you know, authors, you guys are so in your own head. Macey:19:23   Yup. Kaelyn:19:23   So some of the most lovely but some of the most anxious people. Macey:19:30   You are not wrong. Kaelyn:19:32   I have ever met, and um, one of the things that you know is the I the self rejection and I the the not good enough. And um, so yeah, disappointing your agent. That's a whole nother level of scary now. Macey:19:46   Isn't it? Kaelyn:19:48   Sp how'd you work through that? Where you've said like? Macey:19:51   Well, so, well one of the things that really great being with Kurestin is we built this kind of community amongst all of her clients called Kurestin's Armada because her last name is Amato and we are dweebs fantastic. And so I have this community of really supportive, amazing fellow clients and we have a little Alack together. And you know, once or twice a week, one of us will go in and be like, I fucked up. She's gonna hate me. And then we're like literally never going to happen. The rest of us know that Kurestin will never hate you, will never hate any of us and we'll fix it. Kurestin still not be mad. You should talk to her and she will help you. And just having someone else who actually knows her be like, no, no, it's fine. Really fix it. Kurestin fixes everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm uh, she, she has done nothing to deserve being saddled with us. Kaelyn:20:57   Well, it sounds like a lovely supportive community and an army nay an armada and the rest, as they say is history. You guys are still working on upcoming projects and you know, that's, that's great. Uh, you know, the ongoing relationship with an agent is so important. Macey:21:20   Right. Kaelyn:21:20   And I think a lot of people when they sign with one are just so excited right off the bat to have their literary agent. It's like, oh, right, I'm going to be with this person for a while. Probably. Macey:21:30   I think it's really hard to get past that initial kind of gut reaction that this is just a stamp of approval. You know, you have gained this status. Kaelyn:21:40   Yeah, it is. It's like, you know, you've completed this quest, here is your - Macey:21:46   Tada. Kaelyn:21:46   Yeah. Um, here is your agent badge to add to your, your book. Um, it's, it's Mewtwo at the end of Pokemon and, but no, because then it's like no, but then you actually have Mewtwo. Macey:22:00   Yeah. You've got to have a relationship with this person who is a human with styles of working with opinions and you need to understand that and not just jump at the first opportunity because it could be a bad one. Kaelyn:22:17   You know, that's so hard. If you're really wanting to get an agent to have to walk away from something and there's no good answer to it, you just kind of have to be aware is really, I think the only way to approach that. Macey:22:34   And I think for me, one of the things that I didn't realize at the time and so kind of lucked into, um, is we were talking a little earlier about how inside our heads authors get and how anxious and I think that in order to stick it out as a writer, you really need to get to know yourself and understand the things that make you more anxious and the things that sues you. And one of the things that's super important is that the communication style of your agent works for you, not against you. I have friends who have, uh, agents that they really, really love, who don't always answer emails and have to be poked with followup things to answer the email. And I'm like, it's great that that works for you. I would have a panic attack, but I would just need curled up in a ball. Like they hate me now Kaelyn:23:27   They're figuring out how to drop contract all together. This is it. Macey:23:34   And that's fine. It's, um, there is no one perfect agent. They're puzzle pieces. Right. Kaelyn:23:41   That's, that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. And, um, you know, agents that I know and I talked to. I know even just like in my capacity as an editor, I always kind of go to the author and go, what works best for you? If you want to text me questions, that's, that's fine. If you prefer to have like, you know, regular scheduled meetings where we talk about that all at once and that's the only time you hear from me, that's, that's great too. Like I can be flexible. So let me know what works for you because if you're unhappy it's not, this isn't going to work well for anybody. Right. Um, you know, I, the last thing I want to do is be a source of anxiety in your life, right? Yeah, exactly. Macey:24:26   Righ, I have enough of those. Kaelyn:24:27   Exactly. So tell us something, either you wish you had known, you wish other people knew, something you're surprised by about either the process or once you have an agent. Macey:24:37   Hmm. I mean, I think the big one is the communication styles. I have seen agent breakups that have been in large part caused or worsened by that by just a mismatch and just how important it is to understand your own needs before you try to make the sort of commitment. I mean it's not a marriage, but it's a longterm partnership contract. You know what I mean? Kaelyn:25:03   In some cases it's harder to get out of than a marriage. Macey:25:07   Yeah. I mean things get really tangled up once you've sold your money will be coming through that agent forever for that book. Yep. Um, it doesn't have to go away. Kaelyn:25:16   You know what, that's a good point that, uh, I think maybe again, something you don't think about. If you signed a contract for selling your book through an agent and then you and that agent go there, set your separate ways, your money still goes through that agent. Yeah. Does forever. Yup. Because even though you're no longer working with that person, they are technically still your business partner for that particular deal. Yeah. Macey:25:42   They are 15% or whatever their fee is. Kaelyn:25:46   Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a very good thing to mention. Um, communication style. Yeah. Is very, very important for so many people. And again, I think like you just, when you get the call and you're like, oh my gosh, somebody wants me. Um, Macey:26:04   And I think the other thing is when you're getting those calls and making your decisions, you are setting a pattern for yourself in how you work with that person. And you need to think about setting up a pattern that's going to keep working for you. You need to not be scared to email your agent, right? And that can start early, you know? Um, I pester my agent on Twitter sometimes and gently troll her by suggesting I'm going to write a new book where the entire plot is one Flovence and the Machine's song. Kaelyn:26:37   Um, I mean, you're going to do that though, right? Macey:26:40   Maybe. But then she's like, Macy, that's not what plot means. I'm like, I, I'll fix it later. Kaelyn:26:45   You have some stuff you have to tell us about coming up with you and your life. You're headed to Ireland. Macey:26:52   Yes. My podcast is a finalist for Best Fan Cast at the Hugo's Be The Serpent. And so that's exciting and scary and awesome. Kaelyn:27:01   That's amazing and wonderful and just the greatest thing. Macey:27:05   Yeah, I'm honestly like we, you were completely gobsmacked and amazed just to be on the list and I'm so happy with how many new people have been brought in just to hear a few episodes of the podcast and hopefully stick with us cause I'm really fond of what we do. Kaelyn:27:21   Yeah. So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about like what the podcast is? Macey:27:24   Sure. Kaelyn:27:25   Why it's so awesome. Macey:27:27   It's called Be The Serpent and it is a podcast where three redheaded fantasy authors dissect tropes and patterns and themes in media, in literature, and in fan fiction. Kaelyn:27:40   Do you want to hear three people that just genuinely love and enjoy each other's company. Macey:27:46   And make a lot of dick jokes together. Kaelyn:27:48   And that absolutely that. Come for the friendship - . Macey:27:55   And there's one other thing that's coming up. Myself, Janeen Southard and Danielle Wexler are putting together a Kickstarter, which hopefully should be out in October sometime to fund an anthology of queer ff stories about swords, women and their princess lieges. Kaelyn:28:14   It's going to be amazing. I'm so excited when it was funny because of Rekka had mentioned like, oh, and you have to make sure to remind Macy about the Kickstarter. And so I was like, and hey, tell me about this Kickstarter. Like, oh well it's a ways off still, but here's what it is. And I was like, this is going to be awesome. Macey:28:33   It's going to be so cool. We have so much awesome artwork lined up for people as rewards and stretch goals. And one of our first stretch goals is to hopefully open slush so we can have open call and lots of people can send us their amazing weapons sapphic stories and I can't wait to read all of them Kaelyn:28:54   It's going to be fantastic. A project doesn't, doesn't have a title yet. Macey:28:58   Nope, but we've got some really cool people attached. Um, like Alliette Bardard, Kelly Robson, JY Yang. Kaelyn:29:04   Oh, awesome. That's, that's so great. So, um, yeah, where the Kickstarter is not up yet. There isn't a title yet, but when there is, we'll be sure to put in the show notes and uh, you know, hopefully, you know, you'll have something, you know, we can have put out on Twitter to the masses because that just, it sounds like it's going to be amazing. So, um, okay, well thank you so much for taking the time. Talk to us. Where can people find you? Macey:29:28   I have a website which is EnglishMace.com and I'm on Twitter @EnglishMace and the podcast is Be The Serpent on Podbean, on iTunes, on Google play or wherever you get podcasts. Thank you so much for bringing me. Nino:   29:43   I'm Nino Cipri. Um, I'm a queer and Trans Writer. I've written all kinds of different things, mostly focusing on fiction. Um, I have written screenplays, essays, um, so many angry emails, so many, uh, I have two books that are coming out in the next year. Um, my first collection of short stories is coming out in October. It's called homesick. I'm very excited about that. And then in February, I have haven't developed coming out with Tor.com that's called Finna. I write in a bunch of different genres. The like kind of main main through line is that a lot of my stories have like, they're kind of funny. They have a lot of feelings and they're pretty queer. Um, but I've written like horror, I've written science fiction, I've written like fantasy. I actually wrote a story that's like almost entirely like non genre. There's no spec- the only speculative is that there's like 3 million old or 3 million year old fossils of like intelligent weasels and that's it. Rekka:30:47   That's all you need. Nino:   30:48   That's all I needed. Rekka:30:50   Okay. So with that list of, um, of writing styles and subject matter and genre, um, who was in charge of wrangling your writing career? Nino:   30:59   Uh, I like that wrangling. Um, I am represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Agency. Rekka:31:06   And how did you come to choose DongWon? So I actually had kind of a weird journey towards that. I wasn't planning on getting an agent until I had a novel finished, um, which I didn't actually. Um, but in sometime early in the fall, I decided kind of on a whim to enter a contest, uh, like, um, uh, what was it? It was like a short story collection contest with a small press called Dezink. Um, and I had no, like thought that I would win it and then I did and I was shocked and like appalled and I was like, what do you need? Nino:   31:40   Um, but then I had a book deal and then I needed an agent. Um, so I turned as so many millennials do to my friends. Um, and I called a bunch of different people that I knew that all had different agents that I was like, I had been kind of eyeballing them for like, okay, when I start going out and query, I'm going to, I'm going to contact these people. Um, but the fact that I had a book deal like in hand and I needed to sign a contract at some point very soon or reject it, um, kind of sped the process up a lot. So I think I ended up, I talked to a bunch of different friends. I came up with a list of I think like four people who all represented like other writers that I knew pretty well. Um, I asked those friends a lot of questions about like, what the like relationship was like, kind of like exactly like what you're doing. Nino:   32:31   Um, and then ask those friends if they would be willing to, you know, with their agent's permission, like write me a letter of introduction. Um, and I think three of the people, like three of the agents were like, yeah, sure, just like have them email me. Um, and I, one was one of them. I talked to JY Young, um, who is fabulous and awesome and I don't, I don't really know their faces right now because I'm sure everybody knows. Rekka:32:59   Yeah. Nino:   32:59   So it actually ended up coming down to, cause I was talking with a couple of other agents, um, I had to, I got two offers and then ended up going with DongWon. Um, and then almost immediately after like got another book deals. So I feel like I kind of like prove my worth, like, technically? Rekka:33:15   Well no regrets. Right? Nino:   33:18   Yeah. Rekka:33:20   So, um, that's an interesting way to come about having an agent is having the contract first. Um, yeah, which is funny because we think about like the, the power dynamic between the author who is querying and the agent who must, you know, judge and, and accept or, or you know, there's several stages of acceptance with the agent and um, it feels like you kind of get to skip ahead in line a little bit because like, um, not only do you have a book deal, but you also have a little bit of a time pressure that you can leverage to say like, Hey, um, there's a bit of a of a time crunch on this. Could you just let me know real quick? So did, um, so normally when an agent replies to a query, they are requesting a full or a partial or, or some, um, step forward from whatever has been queried. So what were you querying with and what was the next step from there? Nino:   34:15   Like what I sent to DongWon, like the other agents that I was talking to, I sent them like the manuscript for the, um, for the short story collection. Okay. And just be like, this is what is getting published. I think I sent them the contract that was on offer as well. Um, and then I also sent them like, I think the first 10 pages of the novel in progress that I had, which was a young adult horror novel. Um, and it was just like, this is not finished. Just so you know, like just when I tried to be like very, very transparent with that. Like, here's what I've got, here's the first chapter of it, or like the first half of the first chapter. Um, so you can get like an idea of like what I'm, what I'm working on next. Okay. And then I am working on something. Rekka:34:59   And so the contract was an offer for that future novel? Is that what it was or is it the contract for the short story? Nino:   35:05   The contract was for the short story. Rekka:35:06   Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So now you have an agent, you already have a contract, you've already sold a short story. Um, so the agent and you, I'm sorry DongWon and you began to work on that novel together. Is that what the next step is? Nino:   35:22   I should mentioned that all of this was happening when I was in my last year of an MFA program. Yeah. This was, it was like the last six months of it. Rekka:35:30   Okay. Nino:   35:32   So there was like a bunch of different things going on. Um, so on the heels of this offer for the short story collection, um, the novella that was in there was originally in that short story collection. Um, I had also submitted to Tor and Tor.com like novella submission window. Rekka:35:49   Right. Nino:   35:49   Um, and which was like, I double check to make sure that I could do simultaneous submissions and I did. Um, but the thing that people say might happen but never ever will actually happen, happened to me where like I had the offer and I had withdrawn it, um, from Tor immediately. And then like Carl Anglay was just like, I want that. Nino:   36:14   Yeah. So he ended up calling DongWon, DongWon called me. We both called my publisher at the, at Dezink. Just be like, um, so this awkward thing is happening. Yeah. Um, so that was the next thing we actually started working on was something else that like was already the kind of like fell into our lap. Um, which was really nice. And so now, um, like all of that had to be kind of like taken care of. I edited, finished up. Um, so now I'm trying to finish up like revisions on my novel. Um, I finished the first draft. I think this was also my like masters thesis. So I finished the first draft sometime in April I think, and then sends it on to him and like we made a revision plan and yeah, that's what we're working on now. Rekka:37:01   Okay. Alright. So the novels that you have, the books, um, I didn't catch the length that you have coming out in the future. Are these different? Nino:   37:11   Yeah, the short story collection, one novella. And I'm trying to work on a novel and like also there's like a screenplay that's like way over there that I think I was just going to be like, can you just make it fiction? Rekka:37:23   So, um, how is working with DongWon on your novel versus working on the contracts and all the business like communications. Nino:   37:32   So with the other two manuscripts, he was fairly hands off. Um, when we were talking about like, uh, trying to like maneuver one Novella into Tor's hands and then like another novella to this to, to Dezank. Um, he read the like replacement novella cause I was like, you know, this is a pretty rough draft. I didn't, you know, it needs another couple of revisions for sure. Do you want to read it and let me know what you think of it? Like here's my thoughts about it. Um, so he gave me like, he was mostly just like, yeah, I think I agree with basically everything that you, you know, all of your instincts on what through revise are good in my opinion. Um, but he also knew that like, uh, the editor at design would have like a lot more, um, specific feedback. Nino:   38:19   So he was like, here's like the kind of like big picture stuff that I think too you need to work on. Um, the novella, like, because it was already thought, like he was just like, you know, didn't really have any, anything to really say about that one I don't think cause you knew like Carl would be Carl Anglered at Tor would have, you know, his own feedback that he would want implemented. Um, with the novel. He read it and he like, we met for drinks and he was like, okay, we've got like basically one of four ways that you can revise this. Like, and was really good at just trying to figure out first like, what was my vision of this book? Like what did I actually think this was about? And ones that I want it to be. Um, you know, he's like, is this an adult horror novel? Is this young adult or is this about trauma? Um, and it was like we figured out there's like, we like what it was and then how to get it closer to that. Rekka:39:11   Okay, great. So that was all over drinks. You just like hashed it out in person? Nino:   39:15   Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I, and he said that because he said he wanted to do that because he could tell like there was different directions that it could be, it could go, um, like, and that is easier to figure out in person rather than like over email. Sure. And you don't really appreciate cause yeah, yeah. Email him that. Rekka:39:35   Well plus the back and forth, the time lag and then trying to phrase things correctly without the context of facial expression and volume and enthusiasm is, is different. Okay. Nino:   39:47   When I first signed with him, I was living in Kansas. I'm attempting to move to New York. I have, I'm trying to find a job here. Rekka:39:54   Oh, okay. Nino:   39:55   - permanently, but yeah. Um, even before my partner Nibs lives here, so I was here pretty regularly, like every, I've maybe every other month. Rekka:40:04   Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't out of your way. It wasn't like come to this expensive conference and then we'll meet and have this, have this meeting. So that's good. Awesome. How often would you say you check in with DongWon? Nino:   40:17   Hmm. He's good at like telling me the things that I need to know. But he also, I think respects the fact that I'm like, you know, we're both very busy people. I'm trying to find a job. He has a bunch of, he's got like several other clients and travels a lot. Yeah. Um, we check in like fairly regularly. I would say like maybe once a month, twice a month, something like that. And he'll send me updates on things like, you know, oh, there was film interest in this thing. Um, I'm just going to let you know. And also here's what you should maybe expect out of that. Which of course was not much, but it's nice. Consider it a complement. Rekka:40:54   Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So if someone you knew was in your position where you were after you won this contest or, um, in the position of somebody who hadn't won anything for, um, their writing yet, but was looking for an agent to represent their work, would you have any tips for that person, what they could expect or what, what you would recommend they do? Nino:   41:15   So in this, I would say like definitely if you have a community like if you know other writers like talk to them about their agents, talk to them about, um, like what are the reasons like that I signed with them. Like what were their expectations going in versus what, um, you, they've learned since then. Like what the reality actually is. Um, and like I and I, I actually have like talked to some people like who are going out, like starting to query it and I'm just like, you should absolutely do what I did. Absolutely. Get your friends for at you like introduction. Rekka:41:49   Yeah. Nino:   41:50   Your friends are willing to and their agents are okay with it. Like right there. Right. Get them to write you introductions. Like, I feel like anything that can kind of like put you a little bit ahead is helpful. Um, and I don't think it's like breaking the rules at least as far as I know. Maybe there are rules, but like, like nobody told me that when I was starting. Rekka:42:10   So, so your tip is, um, no, no rules and just go forward. Nino:   42:15   Well, and I think too, like agents, especially ones that are trying to find like build their client base are really good at like trying to make themselves accessible in various ways with DongWon, like I know that he's really active and like going to cons and like, um, talking to new writers and doing all of these things. So if that opportunity presents itself to like talk to an agent, then yeah, absolutely. Do that. Like go to go to a conference or a convention if that's something that's available to you. Rekka:42:43   Awesome. All right, cool. So community basically is, is the center of the universe for making this happen? Nino:   42:49   That is absolutely, yeah. That's like the, all the advice I ever have about writing comes down to just like just to build, build better in larger communities. Rekka:42:57   Awesome. Nino:   42:58   Yeah. Hunger communities. Rekka:42:59   Yes. 100%. All right. So um, you'll give us the names of the two books before. Just remind us before we let you go. Nino:   43:08   Okay. Yeah, so in October the my short story collection Homesick is going to be released from Dzanc Books. You can preorder it now. Yes, you can absolutely preorder it now. Um, and then Finna, which is a novella is going to be up from tour.com in February. Rekka:43:25   Okay, great. And we will include links to that in our show notes and thank you so much for your time and we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. Cause like you said, learning from your friends, learning from others in the writing community is, is like such a great resource. Nino:   43:38   It is. It is. Oh God. Yeah. I would not be anywhere without my friends. Rekka:43:42   Absolutely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Nino:   43:46   Thanks you too. Rekka:44:04   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and we’re on part two of Agents Week!  For this episode we got to talk to three agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  Tyler Hayes, Sam Hawke, and Caitlin Starling were all kind enough to tell us their stories, share their experiences, and even offer some insight and wisdom.  You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and well, never mind about the football-related stress relief suggestions, Daniel Jones it is. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! Tyler Hayes- 00:01:28 - 00:15:34   Represented by Lisa Abellera of Kimberley Cameron & Associates http://www.kimberleycameron.com/lisa-abellera.php   https://tyler-hayes.com/ https://twitter.com/the_real_tyler   The Imaginary Corpse https://www.angryrobotbooks.com/shop/fantasy/the-imaginary-corpse/     ====   Sam Hawke- 00:15:35 - 00:25:42   Represented by Julie Crisp of Julie Crisp Literary Agency http://www.juliecrisp.co.uk/   https://samhawkewrites.com/ https://twitter.com/samhawkewrites   City of Lies: https://samhawkewrites.com/books/buy-sams-books/   ===     Caitlin Starling- 00:25:43 - 00:40:36   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.caitlinstarling.com/ https://twitter.com/see_starling   The Luminous Dead https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062846907/the-luminous-dead/   Rekka:00:01   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I am Rekka and I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:10   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:14   So today is the first of our two episodes where we talk to authors about their experience with their agents, getting their agent and working with them. Kaelyn:00:23   Yeah. And our previous episode we talked to Caitlin McDonald who is an agent, but we wanted to talk to some authors that have agents because hearing an agent is one thing. Hearing an author who has done this is another. Rekka:00:37   So we got a bunch of them. Kaelyn:00:39   Yeah. And um, you're, you'll hear in this, uh, this episode, these three authors all kind of have different paths to this. There really isn't like the standard story of how you got there. Um, we talked to Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes and Caitlin Starling. Rekka:00:54   Cause they're individual interviews, this episode goes a tiny bit long. Kaelyn:00:57   A bit long. Rekka:00:57   So we'll, we'll make room for the other episodes you've gotta listen to this week and we hope that this week on agents is serving you well and getting you excited. Kaelyn:01:07   So thanks everyone. Enjoy the episode. Speaker 2:       01:13   [music] Tyler:   01:28   My name is Tyler Hayes. Uh, I've been, I've been writing for about 25 years and writing for money for 16 of that. Um, and my, my debut novel, the Imaginary Corpse is coming out from Angry Robot on September 10th. So I'm repped by Lisa Avalara at Kimberly Cameron and Associates. They're up here in northern California near me. So my story is a little bit backwards from typical, um, in that I actually had the offer on the book before I had an agent. Um, I had been following the kind of normal path of query, partial request, full request, reject, reject, reject, reject. Um, so I was piling up rejections, uh, on this book and they were all those like, you're almost there. Types of rejections. Like it was a lot of, I loved this, but I don't know where I'd put it. And so I don't want to offer to represent it when I'm not confident to where I'd place it. Kaelyn:02:27   Okay. As far as rejections go better than others. Tyler:   02:32   Yes, indeed. And I got of course a few, I formed out a few places, but the, the ones that were personalized, we're all like, God, I wish I knew where to put this, but I'm sorry. Kaelyn:02:42   Yeah. Tyler:   02:43   Um, so midway through that, uh, I got the notice for through my writing community, um, that Angry Robot books was doing their open door period, which they do once a year. Um, and I thought, well, worst case I'll be exactly where I am now if they say no, so I'll go ahead and send it and then I'll keep doing what I'm doing. And I just sent it and like made a note, you know, that it had happened and kind of set the, the drop dead date on it just so I knew when to not bother talking to them if something happened. And uh, just kept going and uh, I kept piling up the rejections. I got more and more discouraged. I had a real heart to heart with some of my critique partners and we actually agreed we were going to temporarily trunk the Imaginary Corpse. Um, not because it was bad, but because we're like, probably the problem. Kaelyn:03:33   Wait, Tyler, trunk? You missed a perfectly good myster pun there. Bury! Come on. Tyler:   03:41   Right. You know, we'll see. This is why I take multiple drafts. Um, so, um, so we're talking about, I'm talking about, uh, just burying this thing out in the desert and pulling it out later, basically saying it's good, but probably this will be a better second or third book. This will be an easier book to sell when you have a name to market it on. And um, and I said, you know, I think you've got a point. As much as I love this book, it's probably time to say goodbye. I'll let this set of queries kind of peter out and if none of them end in an offer, uh, I'll say goodbye and we'll move onto the next thing. And literally I made that decision and then came into my office job the next morning and I had an email waiting for me from Angry Robot books saying, we love this and we want to publish it next year. Uh, this was in summer 2018 after I finished biting down on my hand, so I didn't scream in the middle of my office. I, uh, you know, I finished screaming internally, told all the people who you typically tell, oh my God, I've got an offer. And they were, who reminded me do not pass go, get an agent. So I followed up with via three agents at the time, had my query and had not said anything. Tyler:   04:53   Um, oh, that's not true. One hit it asked for a partial. Okay. Um, so I emailed those three, uh, and also one who also told me like, she took like a full request to decide I can't sell this. So I emailed her too, cause why not? And basically I got to, I've got two people who said, no. Uh, I still don't think, I don't feel strongly enough about the project to feel good taking you on. Um, and then I got to, who actually did the infamous agent call? Uh, one of them was Lisa. Um, and, uh, after a, some thought, you know, I did the normal thing. I took the calls, told them both give me a few days. Um, and I went with Lisa basically because of her enthusiasm, um, was a lot of it. Uh, I got on the phone with her and she was enthusiastic. Tyler:   05:39   She was warm and she was kind, and she also took very seriously that I wanted to be a full time writer. Um, and she, and, but she also made sure I knew what kind of work goes into that. She was not like, Oh yeah, we can absolutely get you there. She said, well, okay, we can try, but here's the path that you are going on at that point. Here's when I think it makes sense for you to tell your day job: See Ya. Um, and so that also really won me over. I was like, oh good. She takes me seriously. But she's not, uh, you know, she's not trying to sugar coat it either. She's just saying like, we'll, we'll work to that, but we will work to get there. So, um, so yeah, so that's, that's my story. She gave me an offer, I accepted the offer and we wound up negotiating with angry robot. And here we are. Kaelyn:06:29   That's, I mean, that's fantastic. That, you know, could not have gone more smoothly aside from, you know, all of the other rejections previous to that. Tyler:   06:36   Yeah, absolutely. There, there were a few crying jags, but you know, that's, that's the business. Kaelyn:06:41   It's a rite of passage, you know, if - Tyler:   06:42   Right. Kaelyn:06:43   Um, so because you had that really interesting, you know, sort of path to this, I think people listening to this might hear that and say, why do I then need to, I want to in who I'm going to have to give another percentage of my money to? So obviously you're very excited to have your agent and happy with them. So why were they worth it? That seems like a no brainer. Tyler:   07:07   Okay. So they were worth it because I was not confident in my own negotiation power. Um, I knew that I was not coming from a place of strength in negotiating with a publisher. Um, and I knew I wasn't coming from a place of experience. Um, whereas Lisa, uh, when she spoke to me was immediately like, you know, she, uh, she immediately went, ah, you know, I know what, uh, probably the boiler plate contract looks like, and I know that I can get you something a little bit better in negotiations. I mean, Kaelyn:07:38   Which you'd like to hear. Tyler:   07:40   Yeah, absolutely. Um, and she was not um, just to be clear, I can say of my publisher here that she was not critical Angry Robot. She was just like, I know that this is an opening offer and I can, you know, if I can get you a little bit more in a negotiation, um, and just the relief of no, somebody who knows what they're doing with the business side, we'll be going to bat for that for my rights, for my advance rather than me with my, you know, I know a little something about something, but I'm not an a, I'm not a professional negotiator, you know, rather than me just going, well, I'd like a little bit more please. Kaelyn:08:19   Yeah. Maybe extra money? Yeah, no, it's okay. You know what? I don't need the money. You guys should have it. Yeah. I think that's a good point that you brought up though that um, there's a lot of people don't consider with the agent and everything they're thinking is, you know, advanced royalties, money. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into these, like rights is a huge part of it. What are the agents know these things that, like you said, shoot, I know the boiler plate here. I know what they're going to send you already because I'm sure she's dealt with them. Tyler:   08:47   Yeah. That was the other thing was that I found really helpful was that she was able to also, uh, reassure me about, she was able to explain my contract to me in language that I understood because of course it's written in legal-ese, which exists for a reason, but is hard for a lay person to interpret. And she was able to get on the phone with me and say, so this clause means this, that clause means that. Kaelyn:09:10   Yup. Tyler:   09:10   I understand the wording here is alarming. But actually what they're saying is, um, and, and she was also able to tell me what wasn't, wasn't unusual, you know, she was able to say like, so this clause here, literally every publisher will put this clause in the contract. This clause here is news to me, but possibly it's because they're British, not American. Let me look into that. Kaelyn:09:35   Yeah. Tyler:   09:35   And that was the other thing is she was like, I'll, I'll check with the other people I know who've worked with Angry Robot or other British publishers, make sure that I'm not raising an eyebrow at something that just has to do with UK copyright law, et Cetera. Kaelyn:09:47   Yeah. I, I, well see, it's funny because I'm very involved with the contracts at Parvus. Tyler:   09:51   Right. Kaelyn:09:52   And I'm even sometimes having to go like, wait a second. Okay. Right. Yes. That thing, I remember that now. So yeah, having someone who can walk in and that is so tremendously helpful and important so that you know what you're signing. Tyler:   10:04   Yes. Kaelyn:10:05   So you signed the agreement and then, you know, what came next? Tyler:   10:10   Of course we had the negotiation until we signed. Uh, and then it's been follow up on the negotiation. Um, you know, checking in about stuff like publicity, um, you know, like making sure that I'm aware of what expected next steps are, which Angry Robot, of course, it also has a publicity manager. A shout out to Jenna who is amazing. Um, but, uh, you know, but both of them, both her and Lisa are working with me to say, okay, these are the things we're going to expect you to do. This is the sort of stuff we recommend in Lisa states, ss going: So my authors at a similar level to you, I've had a lot of success doing this and that, so let's try to make sure that's on the schedule. Um, and then kind of the other stuff has been follow up, uh, getting ready for the next project and kind of making sure we're both on the same page about what we're doing next and where we want to go up is of course the answer. Kaelyn:11:03   Yeah. What we're kind of finishing with everyone it advice that you have or something that surprised you about this process. Tyler:   11:11   As far as what surprised me, I think I was, this is going to sound cynical at first, so give me a minute to explain it. I was surprised by how little really matters in a query packet, by which I mean, you know, I, I've mentored several people I've worked with folks. I'm kind of coming up behind me trying to get their debut together and I thought the same things they did. I thought I should in my bio list, everything that was even vaguely tangentially related to writing. Um, I that I should, you know, mention any scholarship I got that might apply to creative writing that I should talk about how much people loved my short stories in high school, that sort of thing. Um, when really what they want in a query is they want a query letter that pops in whatever way they want you to follow their darn directions and they want to see a good book. Kaelyn:12:08   And if you've got something else that's great, but it's gravy. As, as for advice, I guess my biggest advice would be for finding an agent. Um, do your research. Like really look for someone who seems like a good fit. Who, uh, I can, I can highly recommend Query Tracker. I highly recommend manuscriptwishlist.com. Tyler:   12:28   That's a great website. Kaelyn:12:30   Yes. I, uh, I also recommend looking at, uh, like writers conferences and pitch parties and stuff that are happening to find out who's going, not necessarily to go yourself though if you, if that's your bag, fantastic. But I'm not really into the like speed pitching type thing. Um, but that was actually how I found Lisa was I found out she was doing a writer's conference in near me and I went, oh, she's out there. She's actively growing her client list. You know, she is seeking out new people to represent. Tyler:   13:00   This is the type of agent I want to talk to as opposed to just cold emailing agents and going, I think you're looking for someone new. You're not listed as closed. So, um, but also, uh, my biggest thing once you're talking to them, but once you are actually corresponding with agents, whether it's the legendary agent call or just emails, um, look for someone who is a good fit, who feels right to you. And I know that sounds very vague and kind of crystal vibration-y, um, but seriously, look for someone who you talk to and you feel this is a good fit. This is a personality fit because they are your business partner. When it comes down to it. Kaelyn:13:41   You said something very telling when you were talking about why you decided to go with Lisa was that she was excited and enthusiastic. Tyler:   13:49   Yes. Kaelyn:13:50   Working ... do this is, this is a business partner. This is someone that is going to help you be the most successful that you possibly can. And if they're not excited, that's not gonna, probably not going to work out great in the long run. Tyler:   14:05   Yeah, I I knew so related story, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but down the road from the book was at the book was, was finally edited. It was going to proofs. I didn't, they have to touch it anymore. And so Lisa and I had to call about, okay, what's next? And I told her my idea for my next book that I was in the process of writing at the time. And she actually gaspedout loud on the phone. She was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And I was like, see, now I know for sure. I've done the right thing. Kaelyn:14:34   What a gratifying feeling that must have been. Tyler:   14:34   That's what you want. You want that agent - Exactly right. I was like, oh my gosh, you know. Oh good. I really did pick the right person. Like I hadn't, no doubt, but it was that beautiful reaction of like no, good! This, this is a partnership where I know she wants to sell this work because she wants to read it. So the Imaginary Corpse is a weird fantasy about a plush dinosaur and ex-imaginary friend investigating the first serial killer of the imagination. Uh, it is out from Angry Robot books. Uh, you can pick it up from your friendly local bookstore or directly from Angry Robot's website or from the usual online book vendors. Kaelyn:15:07   Okay. Awesome. So yeah, check that out. How can people find you online? Tyler:   15:10   The easiest places to find me are Twitter at, @the_real_Tyler,underscores, between the words. So the underscore real underscore Tyler. Um, or an Instagram @TylerHayesbooks. All one word also on my website, Tyler-Hayes.com. Kaelyn:15:25   Congratulations on the book, I know we're recording in the future, so I will wish you good luck with the book launch and uh, so that sounds fantastic. Tyler:   15:32   Thank you. Rekka:15:34   [sound effect] Sam:    15:35   I'm Sam Book. I'm going to scifi and fantasy writer. My first book City of Lies, came out last year in July and I'm currently working on the sequel. Rekka:15:43   The City of Lies, which I happened to have read is a, uh, an award winning book. I notice you're, you're a little too humble to say, so I'll say it for you. Quadrupl now? Was it four awards now for that one? Sam:    15:56   It has won a few. Yeah. Rekka:15:58   Fantastic. Well, congratulations. So could you tell us who your agent is and how you chose them? Sam:    16:05   Oh, well my agent is Julie Crisp, in London. Um, applied to a whole bunch of agents when I was query and um, ended up having conversations with um, a few different agents in the UK and in the US um, all of whom were really lovely. And, um, all of whom were enthusiastic about my work and um, I got along really well with all of them on the call. I think ultimately I chose Julie, uh, because of her editing background, uh, in particular because I was a very isolated writer. And I really didn't, um, we hadn't really worked with anyone who'd ever edited me before. I've, well I can probably use it. Um, so Julie was the, um, acquisitions editor at UK Tor before she switched to agenting. So she has a really strong editing background. Um, and she has some really strong ideas for changes to the book. Um, so ultimately that was, that was probably the key. Rekka:16:58   Okay, cool. So you, you kind of knew what you wanted out of an agent in addition to your representation and someone who would submit to publishers that might be out of reach. Otherwise, you also like had a strong sense that you needed somebody who was going to be involved in the editorial process with you before that even happened. Sam:    17:17   Yeah, I think that's, that's right. Because as I said, I really hadn't worked that much on my writing with anybody. I'd been very solitary. Rekka:17:25   What was the experience, I assume you, um, made a revision or two on City of Lies before it went out to some. Sam:    17:33   Yeah, so we actually did some pretty enormous revisions on it um, in that time. So we probably took out from when I signed to when we actually went out on sub, it was probably eight or nine months. Rekka:17:45   Okay. New Speaker:  17:45   Cause I do kind of a massive structural change in the where Julie had suggested that I balance the, the two point of view characters differently. So I essentially had to kind of pull the book completely apart, work out what scenes needed to be in what perspective and kind of rebalance, rebalance it and put it all back together again. Which um, is a very, um, look, it was a difficult - Rekka:18:13   Yes. New Speaker:  18:13   process, bit totally worth it in the end. It definitely made it a better book. Rekka:18:17   Um, POV shifts and like tiny adjustments to POVs can make such a rippling effect on a revision pass. New Speaker:  18:25   Oh my God, so much you think it wouldn't be that hard to switch from one to the other, you know singles? It was, it was so hard and so different because the two characters, even though they're quite similar in terms of, um, they'll rise in the same way and they have a kind of similar perspective, um, they still, they still react to situations differently and they differently notice things, different things about a scenario. So, um, changing from one to the other, even it's just not defined. Rekka:18:51   It was not a find and replace of the name. Yeah, New Speaker:  18:52   Not the same thing. Yeah. Rekka:18:54   Yeah. Awesome. Well, okay, so what other kinds of interactions do you have with Julie? Um, in terms of, um, like copy editing or line editing, um, and then the submissions process and, um, what, what do you rely on her for in your author career? New Speaker:  19:14   Well, she kind of, um, pulls me back from the edge when I'm being in giant baby. Rekka:19:19   So emotional support. New Speaker:  19:21   Emotional support, you know that, um, there's a Gif of a little boy holding onto a rope and wailing and crying in what looks like fast running water. And then his guardian comes over and standing up and he's actually sort of standing at thigh high water and it's not dangerous at all. Rekka:19:38   Right. New Speaker:  19:39   That's how I feel about me, me, me sort of panicky about things and her talking me down. Um, yeah. So no, I use it very much. It's, I'm a person who's kind of always my advocate and on my team and helping me, um, get through this sometimes quite challenging business so that in addition to the support she gives me in terms of editing and she still works really, she worked really extensively on the book. Even after we'd signed with a publisher and know a lot of agents would kind of step back at the point of which they've sold the book and say, you know, that's the publisher's job now. I've kind of done my part and Julie very much doesn't do that. Rekka:20:15   And she was involved all the way through the copy editing stage and, and um, basically just anything that I need, she always makes herself available. Um, which has just been really, really invaluable to me. New Speaker:  20:29   Yeah. To know that there's always somebody who's got your back and will reinforce your decisions and stuff like that. Rekka:20:35   Exactly. New Speaker:  20:36   Awesome. Um, so how often do you check in with her? Is this like a weekly or a biweekly or monthly? Rekka:20:45   Uh, it, it depends what's going on. So when there's a lot of stuff going on, we could talk every couple of days when it's just sort of like right now where I'm just drafting a new material. They may, it might be less frequent, but yeah, if you've, when you're on submission, I was checking in quite regularly and when there's a lot of things happening anywhere around the kind of releases, the first book last year was a very busy time and I was harassing her constantly. She's very good about it. Rekka:21:13   And when you were putting the book out in submission, had you worked on the pitches for the publishers together or did you, uh, you know, throw up your hands after you queried agents and say, okay, no, you can do it please. Sam:    21:27   She handled that, that um but entirely. Um, I mean, I think to some extent she used some material that I developed in terms of pitching agents. Um, she, she kind of used some of that in her pitches to publishes, I think. But one of the good things about having an agent, um, is they're kind of preexisting relationships with, with people in the industry and they know what particular editors are looking for and they're kind of in a much better place than I am to know what we'll work on a particular person. So I left that entirely in her. Rekka:22:00   Yeah, I can, I can understand, um, being relieved that you don't have to be part of that process. Um, I'm a micromanager, so I don't know, Sam:    22:10   I'm bad at talking about, about, about what my book is about. Yeah. Rekka:22:12   Yeah. I think every author is guilty of that for sure. So if you were talking to a new author or an unrepresented author who was looking for an agent, what tips would you give them about, um, seeking someone to represent them? Sam:    22:27   I will, I would say there's so much information available now about how to do a good job of pitching and approaching agents, um, that there's really, as long as you're well prepared, there's really no excuse for making dumb mistakes that are gonna get you eliminated before you even get a chance. So take your time and do your research, um, approach the, the, the query letter or whatever you're using to, to approach the person as a business proposal. So you're looking to, to strike up a business relationship with somebody. So you want to sound like a person that they want to do business with. So, you know, don't be a dick. Rekka:23:04   Fair enough. I mean, there it is. Okay. Awesome. So, no, I think that's a great tip. It's like there is, like you said, so much guidance out there, there are tons of blog posts about how to write a query letter. There are, uh, editors and agents who post query letters they've received, you know, that have been scrubbed for identity, but they kind of pick them apart and say like, here's why this isn't working or here's why this is a good example. And then there are plenty of people, um, you know, within anyone's, uh, general, uh, community that could offer advice or can even, you know, um, send people in the direction of a, of an agent that they might be interested in. Yeah. Sam:    23:45   Yeah, I think that's right. The information is there. Um, so don't, you know, don't rush it. But on the other hand you can also over research forever. I probably [laughs] I'm an over preparer. Rekka:23:56   Oh yeah. Sam:    23:56   You don't need like the 11 spreadsheets in one. All the colors probably. Rekka:23:59   Oh, come on. New Speaker:  24:00   I had that. Unless you really love spreadsheets like I do that. Sam:    24:04   Yeah. New Speaker:  24:04   In which case it's a delight. Rekka:24:06   Well, it, they can be calming, right? Like they can be reassuring. Like, look, I have facts. There are cells. Um, why don't you, uh, plug City of Lies again, the award winning City of Lies. Um, so our, our listeners know, um, like basically give us your elevator pitch. Sam:    24:21   Uh, City of Lies is uh basically a closed room murder mystery set, you know, a besieged city. So it's about a couple of siblings whose family are poisoned tasters for their, the ruling family of the city. Um, there at the beginning of the book, their uncle, uh, the current poison taster and the chancellor of the city are both killed by an unknown poison. And then the city falls under the sage, seemingly from its own people and our main characters, the brother and sister have to try to figure out who, who killed their uncle and the chancellor, um, prevent that person from doing the same to the new chancellor and figure out what's happening with the rebellion, um, before that whole city falls, I guess. Rekka:25:05   Yeah. You know, it's funny you say it's a closed roommurder mystery and you're totally right. Even though it's like in an open world city. Um, they are definitely, um, for most of the book confined to a small area and also by their, um, like their class standing. They're expected to stay in certain places. So that's a really interesting way of putting that. New Speaker:  25:22   Yeah, I picked fantasy it's my, my jam, but my other great love is closed door mystery. So this is like my collage to the, the two genres that I love the best. Rekka:25:34   I really appreciate your time and um, thank you so much for coming on and I know everyone's going to go check out that book because they should. Sam:    25:40   No worries. Thanks for having me. Speaker 6:       25:42   [sound effect] Caitlin:25:44   My name is Caitlin Starling. I'm the author of the Luminous Dead, which came out, um, this past April from Harper Voyager. And I also worked as the narrative designer on this strange little show in New York last fall called A Human. Kaelyn:25:57   Interesting. I didn't know that actually. That's very cool. Caitlin:26:00   Yeah, I got to design body parts for money. It was very exciting. Kaelyn:26:03   That is very cool. Caitlin:26:05   So I am repped by Caitlin McDonald, who is over at the Donald Maass Literary Agency. Kaelyn:26:10   Caitlin McDonald is the agent that we interviewed for the previous, uh, yes, the first episode that came out this week. Caitlin:26:16   I may have thrown her. I may have thrown for your way. There's a bunch of Kaitlin's in my emails at all times. It gets very exciting on calls. We actually have to refer to each other as Agent Caitlin and Author Caitlin. So before anything happens, everyone else knows which one that's talking in, which one is referring. Kaelyn:26:31   So, um, that's been really fun. But, um, so I signed with her back in April of 2017 and I had been querying at that point for a little bit over a year and Caitlin McDonald was actually the first agent I ever queried. Um, but it took awhile to get to a full request and then also for her to get to the manuscript after that. So she also ended up being the first one to offer even though I in the meantime queried about 40 other agents. Um, which of course kicked off the following up with everybody else. I ended up getting one other offer, um, and a couple of their near, near misses, but it was between two agents and Caitlin Macdonald was newer and um, had fewer sales under her belt, but we clicked more on several levels, including for me what's really important is, um, being extremely detail oriented and comfortable talking about logistics and practicalities like contracts. Caitlin:27:31   Um, Caitlin McDonald, I'm sure she told you, uh, used to work in contracts. Kaelyn:27:36   Yes. Caitlin:27:37   Pretty much exclusively for a while. So, and I used to work for a lawyer, so it was really nice to basically say, what's your termination clause like? And for her to just send over the boilerplate agency agreement. And we were able to just talk about contracts. Now, I know that's not for everybody because a lot of people see contracts and start screaming internally. Um, but for me, that was a really big determining factor of why I felt so comfortable with going forward. Kaelyn:28:00   Well, and that's actually very interesting to hear because I'm, one of the questions we got or things people ask is, do I just take the first offer that I get? And I've heard other people say, well, you might only get one offer. You had two and you actually had to make a choice. Caitlin:28:15   I did. Yes. Kaelyn:28:15   So that's very interesting to hear - Caitlin:28:17   Which is very difficult. Kaelyn:28:18   Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a big deal in, it's a commitment. It's a potentially very long relationship. So - Caitlin:28:25   Yeah, it was, it was a really hard decision. Um, the other agent who offered, like I alluded to, you had a lot, a lot more years behind her and a lot more sales behind her. Um, and in some ways I clicked with her personally right off the bat faster than I did with Caitlin McDonald. But after talking, having several conversations with both and, um, in particular, Caitlin McDonald's boss, Donna Moss actually was willing to talk to me about what sort of support she had behind her as a new agent. Um, because it's really important for new agents to have, you know, you'd be able to use the connections that their agency has to be able to go to other agents to say, okay, have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? Um, and that made me confident that even though she was newer at the time, that she had the clout behind her to basically put her on an even footing with the other agent and then I could focus on other details. Caitlin:29:15   Um, and then also, I mean, what, I didn't really think about it at the time, but what does become really clear to me that I'm really, um, was really a good move on my part: Caitlin McDonald is queer. I'm queer, I write queer fiction. It's really nice having her in my corner and fully understanding where I'm coming from as opposed to, um, you know, being supportive but not having that same lived experience when I like want to self edit or pull back or go, oh no, is is the reason why we got a rejection because it's too gay. She'll be like, I will, I will fight for you. I will fight anybody who says it's, and it's just really nice to have that. Um, you know, and I hadn't really anticipated needing that, but it's become one of the most, you know, not one of the most, because obviously like business negotiation things are kind of really important because at least I'm getting paid, but it's really important. It's really important on an emotional and a creative level to know that I have that support.   Kaelyn:30:11   You know, I think we like to go like, oh well the personal stuff really shouldn't matter. But like it does sometimes and if it's just like, you know, one more thing that makes you more comfortable working with someone that's really important. Caitlin:30:24   Yeah. Especially if you write fiction that is very emotionally based. Kaelyn:30:28   Yes. Caitlin:30:29   Your personal life is gonna be very important to your art. So then you need someone who also understands your personal life so they can see what you're trying to do with your art. Kaelyn:30:36   Yeah. It sounds like you guys have like a fantastic relationship. So what are your, what are your interactions like what do you, how often do you talk and how often do you get in touch for like, I have this problem or I'm worried about this because a lot of authors and agency, agents, excuse me, have different styles of communication. So do you find you're more comfortable being in constant touch or do you just go by what works best for both of you? Caitlin:31:04   I probably bother her more than I technically need to. We actually, we have, um, the way we have the arrangement we've come to is that if I'm asking a question that is substantial that we may need to be able to find the answer to later, it goes by email because email is searchable and sortable. But we also text and that's usually for really quick questions. Um, or just touching basis friends or, you know, we're, I, I wouldn't say that we're friend, friend friends, but we are friendly enough that we check in on each other about personal stuff as well as business stuff. Um, and we try and keep the two streams separate. Um, and like on Instagram, I don't ask her business questions. I just get very excited about the cool pictures that she posts. And so we try and keep some, some pretty formal divisions. Caitlin:31:54   Like I don't want to be, um, impinging on her very scarce personal time if I don't have to. Um, but I also am a bit of an anxious person and so sometimes I will spiral out. I'll need to be like, can you please talk me off the ledge? Because I'm clearly having a problem and I know that it's stupid, but I can't get out of it on my own. And she is very good about stepping in and being like, it's fine and this is why it's fine and it's going to be OK. Um, and, and, and so there's parts where even over two years in, we're still learning. I'm definitely still learning about what is good to bring to her versus what I should probably take care of on my own. And there's times where it goes the other way where I decided that, oh, this is something that I shouldn't bother her with. And it turns out that it's something that she really would have liked to know about two or three weeks ago by the time she ends up finding out. Kaelyn:32:48   Um, I always wonder with agents, and you know, I, I edit books for Parvus as well and um, a lot of our authors don't have agents, so I'm kind of like their point person on a lot of things and it's like there should be a manual that's like, okay, besides all of this, there's gonna be a lot of emotional support involved and - Caitlin:33:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:07   How you feel about people texting you, having panic attacks over things that are not a big deal. Can you manage that? Caitlin:33:15   Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I've, I've apologized to her on many occasions and usually what she does, what she tells me is basically this is part of the job. Like this is a thing that happens. It's a very, it's a very stressful business and there's a lot that's out of your direct control and a lot of it's outside of what you can even see going on at any given time. And so it's really easy to tell yourself stories that are completely wrong and not realize that they're wrong because you can't fact check them. Kaelyn:33:43   Well, I always tell, you know, if I have authors or someone getting in touch with me and they're worried about something and they go, oh, sorry, this is so silly. It's like, no, if you're worked up about it and you're concerned, it's not silly. So we'll figure it out. Caitlin:33:56   I mean, best case scenario is there is a simple answer and you're like, oh, and now it's resolved and now you don't feel that way anymore. Kaelyn:34:02   I feel better Caitlin:34:02   Right. And you feel silly at that point. But also at the same time, look, it was an easy problem to resolve and it's not actually something you need to continue being afraid of. So that's great. Yeah. Kaelyn:34:10   So, um, we're asking everyone, what tips do you have or suggestions or misconceptions about looking for an agent in getting an agent? What do you wish people knew? Caitlin:34:19   This is, it's a big question. Um, but a couple of things that come to mind. The first is to be really thoughtful about who you're querying about if you'd actually want to work with them. Um, and it's because it obviously you feel when you're querying and it's a very real feeling that you are putting everything on the line. And if this doesn't work out, you're setback another year or another two years, whatever else. So it's very scary and it's very like there's, there's a scarcity of options. So you want to maximize the potential for someone saying yes, but at the same time, you really do want someone who wants to represent your work in the way you want it to be represented. Um, and so for instance, when I was querying the Luminous Dead, uh, I had actually reworked it at one point in its revisions as YA because a very good friend of mine said that the themes are there. Caitlin:35:15   Even though I wrote it, I had written it as an adult novel originally and it ended up being published as an adult novel. There was a period where she was like, you know, the themes are there, you could make it, YA has more opportunities for sales, there are more editors and there's more money involved. So consider it. And as a friend who, who writes both YA and adult, so I worked, reworked it as YA and I was querying it as YA, but I didn't really want it to be YA. I just thought I should do that as a business move. And it turns out I got a lot of rejections and probably because I was casting it as YA, because I think that comes through the, you know, if you're, if you're trying to sell a book as something that it's not or that you don't want it to be, you're going to run into some problems. Caitlin:35:55   Um, I was very lucky that when Caitlin and I were originally talking, I said, so how would you feel if we made it an adult and terrified that she would say no because she had, she had taken me on as a YA author and she was like, Oh yeah, it could work either way. What do you want to do here? Or here are the actual considerations on both ends. But in the end it's what you want the piece to be, which was great. Um, but I think I wasted a lot of time and energy querying YA agents who pr- who are fantastic agents, but who would have ever been a good fit for my work in the end. And then I got rejections that were upsetting that I didn't need to get. So definitely like really cultivating that list, even though it makes it feel like you're, you're giving up options and chances is a really great place, is a really good skill to learn? Caitlin:36:43   And it won't be easy and it will be comfortable, but it's, it's worth it. And the other thing that comes to mind is actually more about the query letter itself and a lot of people treat it as just a hurdle that you have to do in order to get past this phase. Kaelyn:36:56   We talk about the same thing where it's like everyone thinks about it as, oh, I just have to, it's just something I've got to do. Caitlin:37:04   It's busy work. It's like it's like a homework assignment, but it turns out you're going to use it, that skill a lot. Kaelyn:37:09   Yes. Caitlin:37:09   That skill set is going to be very important for writing your base pitches. I have found that actually if I write a fake query letter at about the halfway point of a first draft, I can usually find the problems in the first draft by trying to articulate it as a query letter. So I use it as a diagnostic tool almost - Kaelyn:37:24   And that's fantastic. Caitlin:37:25   - and it's a really tricky skill to learn. It's, it will not come naturally, especially if you're writing the query letter after you've done like five rounds of revisions and you know your book forwards and back because you're gonna want to show all the work that you did. But if you can learn how to distill it down like that, it ends up becoming a skill. Like writing a good query letter isn't just to get an agent's attention so they'll read the full. That is part of what it does, but it also teaches them that you can do some of the preliminary work for pitching the book to editors, which makes their lives a little bit easier. And it also proves to you, I'll come with me with a good pitch. Yes, it proves that you know how at least a little bit of how to market your own work, which is always great because you're going to be in situations where you're talking to people you know, maybe face to face where your agent is not there. Caitlin:38:10   For the record, Luminous Dead, so the back cover copy is not my query that got my agent, but it is the query that I wrote for funsies. After we'd done some major revisions and I went, Huh, I wonder if I could write a better query letter now I wrote it, we got the back cover copy from the editor, which was based off of my original query letter, which then became part of my agent's pitch, which became part of the back cover copy. And I went, you know, we can do better. Hey I have this thing right here for you. And now the back cover copy, it's not 100% that obviously because I am not a marketing person and there are certain things that I missed or that I put in the didn't matter. But it is substantially influenced by that. So you know, if you've ever read this, and I'm sure there are lots of publishers who really don't care what the author wants to put on the back cover, but if you've ever like read a back cover copy and gone, hmm, that's not how I would've written it. Guess what? You can learn that skill. Caitlin:39:01   And it will help you in getting an agent in fixing your own work at times and in working with your editor. Kaelyn:39:08   Well thanks so much for talking to us. Tell people where they can find you. Caitlin:39:12   Yeah, so um, I am mainly on Twitter @see_starling. It's a pun, it's a very silly pun. And um, my website is CaitlinStarling.com that has filings that has a couple of sneak peeks of things that I am working on that I will hopefully one day find a home for. It also has those pictures from the body parts design project over in New York. Kaelyn:39:34   Yeah, that's very cool. All right, well thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us. Caitlin:39:39   Absolutely. Rekka:39:40   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and oh boy did we really run with it this time!  This week we are bringing you not one, not two, but three episodes and they’re all about those mysterious creatures known Literary Agents.  Who are they?  What do they do?  How do you summon one?  For this episode, we sat down with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald to discuss all this and more.  We loved talking with Caitlin and hope that our discussion might remove a bit of the fear and mystery from proccess of querying agents.  Caitlin is with the Donald Maass Literary Agency and you can (and should!) check her out her and her work at: Website: http://maassagency.com/caitlin-mcdonald/ Twitter: @literallycait - https://twitter.com/literallycait/status/1154917792619139073 Tumbler: https://literallycait.tumblr.com/   And be sure to check out new and upcoming releases from some of her clients!   The Resurrectionist of Caligo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KDWLM3P The Library of the Unwritten: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/ In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any stress relief suggestions for Kaelyn while she deals with the Giants’ will-they-won’t-they Eli Manning and Daniel Jones situation. Seriously guys, she can’t do a whole season of this. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (K): Hey everyone, welcome, another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (R): And I'm Rekka and I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore. K: So Week Three, Submissions September. And this week's a doozy. R: We've got a lot of episodes for you this week. K: Yeah, so, what we ended up doing instead of just one episode about agents, we.. you're actually getting three this week. The first one is going to be an interview with an actual literary agent. Caitlin McDonald took some time to talk to us, she was lovely, we had such a great conversation and that's what you're going to be listening to today. Then, we have two more episodes that we're going to be putting out Wednesday and Thursday. R: Yeah, we're just going back to back with this. K: And we talked to six different authors about their process getting an agent... R: They're experience working with them. K: Yeah, cause I think there's... what we're learning, talking to people, there's a lot of mystery around this. R: Yeah. Mmm-hmm. K: Everyone is very uncertain about what agents do, and how you get one. R: And how you're allowed to use them. K: Yes. Yeah, so we had a really great time talking to Caitlin who gave us some really interesting insight and... Yeah, Week Three: Agents. We… Three episodes, because it turns out there's a lot to say about that. R: You know, this is a big part of it for a lot of people. K: Yeah, it's the check mark. It's a huge check mark for a lot of people in this process is: “Get agent." So take a listen, we had a great time talking to Caitlin and hopefully you enjoy the episode. [music] 02:01  Caitlin (C): I’m Caitlin McDonald. I'm a literary agent at Donald Maass literary agency. I represent primarily Science Fiction and Fantasy for adult and young adult, as well as a little bit of nonfiction. I've been in the business for... I think, eight or nine years no? I lost track, but around there. R: So over eight or nine years you've seen it change a little bit, with going, you know, so heavy on digital all of a sudden, and the opportunities for print on demand, opening up smaller publishers… C: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, at my first agency I was involved in a lot of reworking backlist contracts that had no language for digital to kind of, you know, deal with that change that was really becoming a huge deal. That was 2011, so... there was a lot. It was, obviously 2008 was kind of when digital really hit the market—  K: Yeah. R: Right. C: —started to become... um, but like, 2011 was when people really said, "Okay, this isn't going away. This is serious." [Kaelyn and Caitlin talking over each other and laughing.] K: Oh, people will read things off screens! They don't always need the physical book in their hand. C: And it's not going to kill paper! K: No, no not it's not. C: It's a supplement. K: Yeah. So, Caitlin, could you maybe tell us a little about what a literary agent does? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, like, "Oh, as soon as I get an agent, that's it, then my book's gonna get signed," or, "I'm never gonna do this unless I get a literary agent." Um, I think a lot of authors who are looking for agents maybe don't always know what the agent will do for them. What their job is, after you sign with them. C: Sure, so there are some things that kind of differ from agent to agent, particularly, there's also differences between if you have an agent who focuses on Non Fiction or, versus Fiction. So, it's always worth having a conversation with an agent and asking this question of them directly if they're offering representation because their answer may vary from what I'm about to describe here. But, at the, you know, the basic level, typically, in addition to most of us these days do editorial. So, I will do at least two rounds on a manuscript before I send it out on submission even after I've acquired it, there's always gonna be at least one round of line editing but usually even before that, I'm doing at least one round of structural edits, areas where I'm saying, "I love this character but strengthen their character arc, you know, make their motivations clearer.” “X Y Z isn't working, let's find a way to fix that.” So, I always make sure that I'm doing editorial before we go out on submission. Obviously, submission is the Big Thing™, that's what everyone gets an agent for, but even after we have that deal in place for you, part of our job is to negotiate it so that it's the best deal it could be, both in terms of the offers but also the contract language. So sometimes there are elements that, you know, authors don't necessarily know or that don't come up in the offer point, so it's not a deal point of how much money you're getting, what sub-rights you're contracting out, but really nitty gritty language in the contract that might be boilerplate between the agency and the publishing house but maybe the publisher recently revised their standard contract, so we have to make sure that the language is still what we agreed to. You know, really little things, we're here to make sure that everything is the best it could possibly be for our authors. And then, also staying on top of everything afterwards as well. Os I don't just well, “Here's your editor, the book deal is signed, it's their problem." I'm still there to make sure that you know, everyone is on target for deadline, that the publisher is delivering on publicity and marketing that they agreed to. That, if there are any concerns coming up, a copyeditor who's making changes that the author doesn't like—I've had that problem before. Anything that, you know, any concerns my author has, any discrepancies, any time issues, all of that, I'm here to kind of be a mediator between my author and the publisher. If an author has a problem with anything, if they have a question they're afraid to ask the editor directly, I'm here to kind of be the difficult person so that the author can maintain their good relationship with the editor. The author should never have to ask a hard question or demand something that is going to seem pushy, because that's my job. I'm the one who gets to be pushy and maybe be the person that the publisher goes, "Ugh, them again." But they'll get to have a good relationship with their author. K: I always really enjoy going through the agent because authors, you know, don't wanna be pushy and they're a little, "Oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here," and with the agent it's like, "Okay, let's just figure this out." C: Exactly. We also know what's standard. What's a reasonable request where we can come in and say, "Okay, the publisher's not going to be able to do that but here's a compromise that we can suggest." So we can help mediate a lot of those elements where an author may want something but not know whether it's standard, whether it's something that they should ask for or can ask for, not knowing what is normal. K: Yeah I mean for a lot of authors this is kinda their first foray into publishing and it's overwhelming and it's things that they think they should know already and they really don't. And there's no reason that they should. So, yeah, having and agent, someone that's in your court and able to help you navigate that is so valuable. A lot of people who're going to be listening to this probably do not have an agent already, and they want one. When you're evaluating potential clients to take on. What are you looking for? Obviously a good book is the first major component. But beyond that, is there anything you kind of take into consideration when making decisions on these things? C: Certainly there's an element of understanding how to pitch, clear market identity, knowing that they clearly understand and read within their genre. So, they may... I don't expect them to, you know, know every, have read every book and be as on top of the industry and what's coming out in the next, you know, year, as someone who's in the industry, but I do expect that they read within their genre, that they have comp titles that are relevant, that they show an understanding of what readers are looking for in the sense that they themselves are a reader. So sometimes I'll see queries that come in and describe.. some.. they say, "Oh, this pitch is something that's never been done before," and clearly it has. Then I'm going, "Okay. You definitely don't read this genre at all, and this is probably not a good fit." You need to really make sure you're reading in your genre and demonstrate some understanding of it, because otherwise we will be able to tell. Uh, the other thing that is really helpful is a little bit of that personalization when you're pitching to an agent can just be really helpful. It's not necessary, per se, but I do find it incredibly helpful to show that you know, you've done a little bit of research and it gets me more excited about a project if you know things that I'm specifically looking for. Not just my genre but specific details of things I'm interested in things that I'm looking for that you can cite and say, "Yes, my work has this and I know you want that." Then that can really get me excited about it before I even get to the sample pages and that's a really good way of grabbing an agent's attention. K: You hear that, listeners? Slapping the same thing together and sending it out over and over again is not the best way to get someone's attention, actually doing some research and putting some time into —because that's something we talk about a lot, is this is not an easy process, so if it seems easy to you you're probably not doing it the right way.  R: So one place that folks can find your particular manuscript interests would be on your submissions page? Your submissions guidelines, generally. Um, lightly browse (do not stalk) your twitter, and if the agent is listed on Manuscript Wishlist, which is a website that like, puts together a lot of agents. They can fill out profiles and keep it updated themselves of what they're looking for. That's a couple of places where you can find out, is this agent interested in something I'm writing, and also a lot of agents will have the headers on their social media include the books they've worked on. So if you look at that header photo, it's like a real quick double-check. Is anything.. do I write like anything on here. One, if you haven't read anything on there, stop what you're doing if you're really interested in that agent, and read something that they've worked on. But, it's a quick check, just like, "None of this is anything like what I write, maybe I should look for a different agent, and not waste their time." K: Yeah. Along those lines, one of the questions we had sent along was, "Agents, when they open for queries, this has to do with the alignment of the stars, correct?" C: Absolutely. K: "And the tidal forces of the moon and..." R: "Magic. Lots of magic." K: "And various other natural phenomenon." But when those things happen, what makes you decide like, "Okay, I'm ready to be open for queries again. I'm ready to take on new clients"?
C: I man, I'm sure it's different for every agent. For me, specifically, it really has to do with how much time that I have. How I'm doing with current client manuscripts. Whether I've caught up on all of the queries already in my inbox. That's often something I have to make a really concentrated push, after I close to queries, to then get through all of the ones that are still need to be responded to. Then give myself a little bit of time to get through some manuscripts. I wish I could say that I only open to queries when I've responded to all of the fulls that I've already requested, but that's not the case because then I'd probably never open to queries." K: as an acquisitions editor, I can say the same thing, that I always have a few that I'm still working through but it's like, "But I also need more for the future, so we're gonna open for submissions again." It's hard to balance that. C: Yeah, yeah it is and the work-life balance as well, there's so many elements. Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that most agents aren't reading queries during work hours. They're reading them during their own personal time. Our work hours are dedicated to our clients, editing manuscripts, possibly reading fulls, but for the most part, it is working on our clients and editing the existing manuscripts, going out on submission, making sure everything is up to date. All of the work that is involved with being an agent for our existing clients is pretty much a full time job and finding new clients to add to our list is an important part of our job but it also usually happens outside of the parameters of our forty-fifty hour work week whatever you .. however you define that. I'm often sending queries at ten o'clock at night and that's just how it is. When you have the time for it. K; Yeah. Same thing. I get responses from people that are like, "Uh, were you up this late?" I'm like, "I'm up that late every night. That's when I get my work done!" We talked about this a little you know, when you said what does a literary agent do, but: relationships with authors. Obviously, like, one of your big things is, you're in that person's court. You are their advocate, you are there, making sure that they get the best possible publishing deal, making sure everyone's happy, handling difficult situations for them. But beyond that, your relationship with a writer, what is that like? What do they expect from you? Obviously, it will change depending on how things are happening in their career, but what's your relationship like leading up to a release and then, for example, afterwards? C: This is such a good question because it' actually really important for an author to know what they need about themselves before, if they can. Which is hard to know if you've never had an agent, but if you can try to figure out 'what's important to me?' beforehand, then having that conversation helps you know whether the agent is going to be a good fit for you. Because it really varies for all of my clients. Some of them, you know, I'm in almost constant touch with. Some of them I only head from them when they have a manuscript ready and they send it and it's already revised and they feel like they just... "here it is!" and others are going, "Here are my next... here are one-sentence pitches for my next eight ideas, which one should I do?" "Here's a partial draft." so it really really varies. I've got some authors where I'm working with them on all sorts of different levels of early stages of manuscripts and others that don't come to me until they've got something nearly complete, or at least a full first draft, or a full synopsis, you know, it really really varies. and then the level of contact that they want also varies from author to author there are some who I'm here as you know an emotional support as well as all of the other tasks that my job entails. And then others who are very happy to sort of sit back and only reach out when they actually have a specific publishing question or concern that needs to be addresses. So it really really varies, wildly and it's important to kind of know "how much do I want my agent to be in touch?""Am I more comfortable with email of phone?" "Am I going to be someone who wants to be able to text my agent?" These are the kind of questions that it helps to be able to look a little bit inside and say, "this is.. these are the kinds of communication limits that I want with an agent," and to talk to them about it beforehand and make sure that that's what you're going to be getting from the agent you're looking for. K: Well now, you, I'm sure, in a lot of situations, have to set some boundaries. C: That is true, um, but it.. there often, I find, it's something that is done not necessarily explicitly. I kind of set what I'm comfortable with and if that means I'm not responding to emails that aren't super important on the weekend, then that's just something isn't necessarily discussed beforehand, per se? I know this sounds a little bit contradictory to what I just said, but like R: No but by your responses, you're setting their expectations. C: Exactly. Exactly. K: I know some people that, when they first signed with their agent they're like, "I have this question," and I'm like, "Well go ask your agent then." C: Yes. Exactly. K: "That's what they're there for." "I don't wanna bother them." "That.. I.. you are not bothering them. Other.. you know, you're not calling them at one in the morning having a breakdown about something." That's bothering. Don't do that. C:  Yes, exactly. We're here as a resource so you should always feel comfortable reaching out to your agent about anything that is publishing and work related. That, at least, you should always feel comfortable doing. They might set the parameters of how to do that. Is it okay to just call them ay any time, or do they prefer email? Do they give you their number so you can text them? Depends. I mean, I know many agents prefer not to do that which I think is absolutely a good idea but I'm sure that there are some that are perfectly comfortable with it. So you know, having that conversation beforehand and finding what their preferred system is so that you know whether it's compatible with your preferred system, that's really the key. K: Gotcha. So, we had kind of also talked about this briefly, but one of the other questions we wanted to talk about is, and I'm gonna kinda combine two things here: what catches your eye in query letters, in authors that are querying you, and at the same time, what are some red flags? C: So, what catches my eye, I think'd be a little like what I talked about before, something that really speaks to me personally and actually addresses things that I have specifically said that I'm looking for. Anything that is particularly really unique, like actually finds a way to give me an unexpected twist within the pitch itself. I'm also.. I do really appreciate comp titles that kind of combine, you know, taking two very very disparate comps and combining them to say "here are two things that are nothing alike but if you combined them, that's my book." Then you can get a sense of, "Oh, here is something really new and unique." I once got a query that said it's Jane Austin's Emma meets Dexter. And then.. K: Oh! C: Yeah, and then the plots came out, like, Yes, that makes sense! But getting that, those kind of comp titles, I went, "That is very interesting and I want to learn more." So, you know, it's.. comp titles don't have to be like that but they can be a very interesting way to condense a unique aspect of your book into one creative, short pithy pitch. In terms of red flags, I think it's often a, like I said before, very clear not understanding of their genre or the type of book I'm looking for if they very clearly have misunderstood, not just the genre per se, but something say, comes in and is pretty heavily misogynistic in a certain way or something that just, like, if you check my social media, I'm very clearly not interested in works that are, you know, a certain way, even if they are science fiction or fantasy. And then, also I would say another huge red flag is authors who feel the need to attack other authors or existing books for a genre in their query letter. K: Oh really?
C: that is never good. don't be that person. K: No. C: Yes, I've definitely those books that come in say, "Well, this book was terrible," or "Nothing in YA is good anymore," or, "Twilight was terrible!" K: Oh my god. C: Don't be that person. That's... you know, don't attack other authors in your query. It's not a good look. K: I'm making this face right now because I have read so many query letters and I have never seen that.  C: Really? K: That's like. now see, watch.. cause we're open for submissions now so I'm gonna get like ten of those. Now that I've said that but like, oh my god, wow. I thought I'd seen everything. That's a new one. Okay. R: Actually that comes up on Twitter a lot. I see a lot of agents saying "Please don't do this. You know, don't insult J K Rowling because you think that will make your book sound more intelligent. It doesn't." K: It doesn't and I mean, you know. Come on, Harry Potter. R:  Regardless of whether you like it, it was very successful. An agent wouldn't mind a Harry Potter. C: And it sets yu up as a person who is going to be not someone who plays ball with the industry if you're going to be someone like that then that doesn't send a good message about the type of person you're going to be in terms of how you interact with other authors and publishers. and the fact is other authors: those are your peers, those are your support network. you need other authors because their success is your success. And their blurbs are how you get found and you all have to support each other and so if you're not going to be interested in doing that then you're probably not going to succeed in the book industry. K: I've done a couple things over the years and a question I get a lot is well you guys are like, you know a small independent press, and "yes, we are, it's a lot of fun," "So what about competition from this what about..." It's not like... it's not competition. People, I think. It's not the same as cheering for a sports team. You don't love one team and therefor their failure is other teams' success. People who love and read these genres of books are just going to keep looking for more things to read. So everyone succeeding you know especially in similar veins that you're working in, that's great for you as an author because that means more people might come across your book as a result of that. C: Exactly. K: But it is very interesting when you look at these and you're evaluating if you think you can work with this person. Can I help no only them but like, I need to be successful here. Your author's success is the agent's success but you still have to work within the industry and you still have to be able to put together and sell a book at the end of the day and if you're presenting yourself in a way that's gonna make your agent think "I'm not sure I can do this with this person" that's gonna drive them away.  R: We talk a lot about querying an agent for the first time, creating a new relationship with them, but frequently, especially in genre fiction, book deals are for more than one book. So once you have entered into like the second in a series or the second book that's been optioned as part of the same contract, does your relationship change with the author at all? C: Um, yes, so it's very much, I think, it depends from agent to agent but for me, I'm very much willing to work with authors as early as they have pitch ideas. So they will come to me with, you know, ideas, with early drafts, and I'll be definitely working on things much earlier than I would be than a query. So, obviously, when you query your manuscript should be as close to final as you can possibly make it. You should have already had some beta readers, you should have already done editing, and so at that point the hope is that it will only take a few more rounds with an agent before it's ready to go on submission. Obviously for your second or third book, and books after that, that's necessarily not the case. So yes, I am seeing much earlier drafts. I have worked on books that are completely rewritten from scratch multiple times before going to the publisher ad also part of it is deciding what the next book should be sometimes. So I've had clients where we look at their first book and where it fit in the market place, and their other book ideas, some of which might be very different from the first book, and others might be in between and we say, "okay, how do you want to be positioned in the marketplace as your career? Do you want to be a YA author or do you want to be an adult author? Do you want to be a horror author or do you want to be a fantasy author? If you want to be both that's fine, but if you really feel strongly about one of these things, and you just happen to have one book idea that falls outside that parameter, then maybe we don't so that as the second book, maybe that's the third or fourth. Maybe that's an outlier book." So, figuring out how the author wants to be positioned in the marketplace and making sure that we are following a trajectory that will achieve that is part of what I help them do. K: That's something that I think a lot of people don't realize a lot of agents do is, basically helping the author come up with an identity. And how they're gonna fit into the marketplace, what they want to be known for. Yeah that's really interesting to think about as well. Anything that you wish people knew about literary agents? Any giant misconceptions you frequently come across? You know, obviously the stuff about the bloodletting is all ~true, but the rest of it? C: I think that the big thing I would  just... I really wish to share with people is that I promise we're not scary. It's... We're just people like you. We just love books, like you. I.. when I got to conferences there are so many people who are so scared and I just want to hug them and say, "No, it's okay, I promise.. there's nothing to be scared of." K: Wait, quick qualification. If you run into Caitlin at a conference do not walk up to her and hug her immediately. Ask first. C: Thank you. Fair. Thank you. Yeah, but I also there's just a I feel like there's a I don't wanna say a culture of self-rejection but there is.. I see a lot of self-rejection— K: Oh, yeah, absolutely. C: —on the internet and on social media and people will ask me, "Can I query you?" and I'm going, "Why are you asking me? Just do it. Just do it!" You know, alway always give it a shot and you know, we're just here because we love books and we want to help you succeed. Like we want authors to succeed. We want books to succeed. We're not out here saying no to books because we're up in a castle laughing at all of you. We really really want these books to succeed. We want to see more books that we love. And most of the time, when we reject something, it's with a heavy heart. It's, "I love this pitch but the writing just wasn't quite there yet, but man, I hope they come back to me with another project in a couple of years when they've really honed their skill and improved their writing." You know that's really where we're coming from is, "Not this one, but keep working at it. We're waiting for you to come back next time and really nail it." K: to everyone I hope hearing that is encouraging. I'm encouraged just listening to it and I'm not even querying an agent. Thank you so much for talking to us. This was really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. C: Of course, well thank you for having me, it's been great.  K: So, where can people find you on the socials? C: I'm on most social media @literallycait that's c-a-i-t short for Caitlin, and on the Donald Maass website which is MaassAgency.com. R: Alright so is there anything else that you wanna tease for people, books coming out or anything like that? C: Sure I've got a couple really exciting books coming out over the next month or two. We've got The Resurrectionist of Caligo by Wendy Trimboli and Alicia Zaloga, which is very very exciting. Kind of dark Victorian-esque fantasy, which would be great for anyone who's a fan of the podcast Sawbones. If you're into that you'll definitely like this book. And I've also got The Library of the Unwritten, by A J Hackwith, which is K: Yes C: Fabulous Hell based fntasy about books that are unwritten escaping their library and going on walkabout and the librarion having to chase them down it's very fun and if you love books it really explores the concepts of narrative and character and what it means to have those elements and give them agency so it's a really it's a love letter to the concept of writing. It's fabulous. K: That one's on my list, I'm very excited for that one. C: Oh good. K: Okay, so. The take away here: Agents; they're people just like the rest of us. R: At least one is. K: One of them anyway. The rest are in the castle. R: Okay, thank you so much Caitlin, we really appreciate your time. C: Thank you. 31:34 [Music]
R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general remember you can find us on twitter @WMBcast, same for instagram, or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course you can always retweet our episodes on twitter.  Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

In this podcast we switch things up to give a training on how to create an editorial calendar for your healthcare center digital marketing. Having an editorial calendar allows your marketing team to: Be more proactive rather than reactive with your marketing Have peace of mind that you are best taking advantage of National events and observances See real growth in your website traffic and practice bottom line.  Amber Irwin and Caitlin McDonald, co-owners of Social Speak, give actionable advice about how to best create and use an editorial calendar to manage your health center digital marketing strategy.

Learn a little more about Caitlin McDonald and Amber Irwin on their own personal journies and how the grew a successful freelance company. 

To get live links to the music we play and resources we offer, visit  This show includes the following songs: Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) – Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Visit our Sponsor: Get music by McGonigle & Gladstone at Visit our Sponsor: Get music by Lily Galin at

To get live links to the music we play and resources we offer, visit  This show includes the following songs: Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) – Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Visit our Sponsor: Get music by McGonigle & Gladstone at Visit our Sponsor: Get music by Lily Galin at

To get live links to the music we play and resources we offer, visit  This show includes the following songs: Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) – Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Visit our Sponsor: Get music by McGonigle & Gladstone at Visit our Sponsor: Get music by Lily Galin at

This show includes the following songs:   Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) - Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Download a Free Song from FUE: 

This show includes the following songs:   Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) - Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Download a Free Song from FUE: 

This show includes the following songs:   Liv Margaret - Spinning  Ellen M Wilson feat. Tawaan Brown - Feel Your Love  Shannon Rae (writer Dave Anthony Setteducati) - No Apologies  Susan Sacco (writers Jacqueline Cuba Norkin & Susan Sacco) - Guardian Angel  Gail Galea - Have Your Cake & Eat It Too  Tashara Sharon Angelica & Philippa Jane Winkler - Angels in DIsguise  Caitlin McDonald (writer Pat Hardy Lockwood) - Obsessed   For Music Biz Resources Visit  Download a Free Song from FUE: 

When you think about research that contributes to understanding others (or maybe even yourself more), dance is not often the first thought that comes to mind. But the collection of essays in Belly Dance Around the World: New Communities, Performance and Identity (McFarland, 2013) bring the expression of self through dance to life. This collection, edited by Caitlin McDonald and Barbara Sellers-Young, contains research, and stories from dancers and researchers about the role of belly dance and the many forms that it takes. These chapters illuminate things such as the complex relationship of belly dance in conservative middle-eastern societies, to communities in Canada practicing belly dance, and even the role of belly dance in the cyber world of 2nd life. The evolution of belly dance and the role that it plays in the past, present and future represents the important and fluidity of identity, something every person aspires to attain. Caitlin McDonald is currently working in the private sector. Her collegue Barbara Sellers-Young has a recently publication Embodied Consciousness: Performance Technologies (Palgrave, 2013) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you think about research that contributes to understanding others (or maybe even yourself more), dance is not often the first thought that comes to mind. But the collection of essays in Belly Dance Around the World: New Communities, Performance and Identity (McFarland, 2013) bring the expression of self through dance to life. This collection, edited by Caitlin McDonald and Barbara Sellers-Young, contains research, and stories from dancers and researchers about the role of belly dance and the many forms that it takes. These chapters illuminate things such as the complex relationship of belly dance in conservative middle-eastern societies, to communities in Canada practicing belly dance, and even the role of belly dance in the cyber world of 2nd life. The evolution of belly dance and the role that it plays in the past, present and future represents the important and fluidity of identity, something every person aspires to attain. Caitlin McDonald is currently working in the private sector. Her collegue Barbara Sellers-Young has a recently publication Embodied Consciousness: Performance Technologies (Palgrave, 2013) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Michigan State University senior Victoria Bujny took her education beyond the classroom when she, Caitlin McDonald and Ashley Brimley started their own business: Folyo. Folyo helps student artists sell their work to buyers. Impact's Abbie Newton had Bujny on Exposure to talk about the business and about being an entrepreneur in college.

Michigan State University senior Victoria Bujny took her education beyond the classroom when she, Caitlin McDonald and Ashley Brimley started their own business: Folyo. Folyo helps student artists sell their work to buyers. Impact’s Abbie Newton had Bujny on Exposure to talk about the business and about being an entrepreneur in college.