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Panel: Eric Berry Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Paul Smith and Andrew Mason In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Paul Smith and Andrew Mason! They discuss the platforms Lucky and Crystal. Other topics include: Ruby, Phoenix, Laravel Mix, Thoughtbot, Webpack, compilers, and much more! Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:02 – Chuck: Welcome!! Eric Berry, Nate Hopkins, and myself are the panel - and our special guests are Paul Smith and Andrew Mason. Introduce yourself! 1:41 – Andrew / Guest: I have messed with every type of language, so there’s that! 1:55 – Paul / Guest: I have been here at my current company for 5 years and it’s a consultancy firm. I have been working on Crystal. 2:14 – Chuck: We are lucky to have you! Give people the elevator pitch for Lucky and Crystal? 2:33 – Guest: Let’s talk about Crystal and looks very similar to Ruby! It’s faster and it’s a compound language. It catches a fair amount of things at compile time. The other special features are... 4:17 – Guest mentions compilers. 4:23 – Chuck: Yeah we see this in the typescript. Is it language service – is that what it’s called? Pile and compile and all of this checking are a nice stage for it to run-through. Although the flipside is coding and to not worry about that – that’s nice! 4:56 – Guest: It has changed my approach for sure. 5:43 – Panel: How much slower are you? 5:54 – Guest: I am a lot faster in Crystal than I am in Ruby. 6:51 – Panel: Yeah you have to figure out where you want to save the time. 7:00 – Guest: Someone wrote a blog post and it said...the Rails service is like bolting a shelf on a wall and hoping to hit a stud and it’s not solid. But using Lucky it’s sold although it took a little longer. I think it can be true. You can do bad things with compilers, though. It depends on how you use it. 7:43 – Panelist asks a question. 7:53 – Guest: Every Friday is an investment day. Lucky is my “whatever I want thing.” I am technically getting paid to work on it. 8:33 – Panel: have you had to battle with the framework? 8:51 – Guest: Yes, even though Crystal looks like Ruby (at a high level) if you want to do it well you have to approach it in the Crystal-way. When I came to Crystal I came to it like Rails. The problem with that is I wanted to have type-saved parameters – you can’t do that in Crystal b/c...it doesn’t know when to have a parameter with... 10:48 – Panel: I have heard you talk about Crystal before on another podcast. You talked about templating and I am curious to hear about that. I have used Slim and others and now stick to ERB. 11:25 – Guest: Yes definitely. Let’s back up and talk about WHAT Lucky does! The guest talks about Rails, escaping, and more! 14:37 – Panel: So I imagine Rails partials are slow and expensive to render. I would imagine that this approach with Lucky... 15:00 – Guest: Yes exactly. It’s extremely fast! 15:20 – Panel: How is this for designers? 15:30 – Guest: Yes that was a concern of mine. With Lucky I tried to make it close to a regular HTML structure would look like! 16:32 – Panel: I spun up a Lucky app the other day. It looks like you are using... 16:50 – Guest: I have played around with a bunch of stuff. I landed on Laravel Mix. 18:27 – Panel: Yes webpack is a pain to set up and it’s hard to get it to working the way you want it to work. 18:47 – Guest: Yeah if you want React or whatever it will generate the configuration you need. I don’t like it b/c if you want to... 19:28 – Panel. 19:45 – Guest: I don’t want to maintain it. 19:54 – Panel: There is a Crystal community in Utah. I want to know – are you competing with Amber? Explain the difference between Lucky and Amber? 20:20 – Guest: Yes I did look at Amber but they are approaching it differently than us. The guest talks about the differences between Amber and Lucky. 21:54 – Guest (continues): With Lucky you will have to learn a little bit more but you get more of a pack! 23:23 – Panel: It sounds like Lucky is inspired by Elm – right? 23:32 – Guest: Yeah, I think so. The guest dives into this topic of Elm and Lucky! 24:35 – Panel: How much does the types feel like it’s getting in your way? How explicit is it? When I came to Ruby it was a breath of fresh air. I am a bit reluctant to go back to those days. 25:25 – Guest: I think Lucky does a happy medium. It doesn’t infer instant variables. I like the... 26:28 – Panel: I learned Java very early on in my computer science career. 27:00 – Guest. 27:10 – Panel: “Crystal...it’s not Java!” That should be your slogan! 27:20 – Fresh Books! 28:25 – Panel: A lot of people are moving to Elixir community. Do you see people moving from Ruby to Lucky and Crystal? How does Lucky compare to Phoenix? 28:55 – Guest: Good question! 29:10 – The guest talks about bamboo – see links below!! 29: 29 – Guest: Sure Ruby is fast but sometimes you spend more time on it then you would want to. 31:08 – Guest: Blessing and curse that Crystal looks so much like Ruby. That’s what I thought at first: why would I want to learn this if it’s so similar to Ruby. BUT there are so many benefits to Crystal vs. Ruby. 31:48 – Guest talks about Lucky catching the bugs. 32:00 – Panel: I wonder if that happened with Groovy and Rails? 32:21 – They go back-and-forth. 32:28 – Panel: Thoughtbot has always been on the forefront of Ruby. Can you talk about Thoughbot please? (See links below for Thoughtbot!) 33:15 – Guest: Great question. It’s hard to tell b/c there are different offices. I would say Ruby is our main thing. Ruby is the most mature thing that we use in-terms of web development. Guest: Actually – Rails is pretty nice! 34:54 – Panel: We went through the same thing with CodeFund! I wrote it initially in Python and then I wrote it in Elixir and it became so complex. Now we are moving everything back to Ruby and it’s been a fantastic decision.  36:30 – Chuck: You are talking about the sustainability of open source but there are benefits throughout the company right? There are tons of tangible benefits of doing it, especially when it’s your Friday schedule. You can level-up on things that could help you. I know a lot of companies cannot afford it if they are trying to hustle. 37:42 – Guest: It’s totally not charity through Thoughtbot. It’s a huge help for hiring new people. I know they are okay with letting me work on Lucky b/c it’s bringing on new developers and a good marketing tool, and finally recruiting! 39:07 – Chuck: Yeah, I have been talking about developer freedom and that’s what I am addressing through the DevRev show! It’s my new podcast show. We talk with Chris on Elixir Mix. It lends that credibility if they need to save our bacon. 40:02 – Panel: What’s your goal with Lucky? 40:11 – Guest: I would love to get it to the point where Thoughtbot could start a project and default to Lucky! Start a project and not resting every gem and be confident with launching it. 41:36 – Panelist asks a question. 41:45 – Guest: It’s not 1.0 and that means that the API will break with every release. I think that’s good to tweak stuff but that turns companies off, though. 42:40 – Chuck: Another thing that helps with adoption is Twitter used Rails to build their initial version. This blah, blah company uses important stuff and they are using Crystal and whatnot then that’s good! It sounds like you are waiting for social proof. 43:23 – Guest: Is the next Twitter going to even know about Crystal? 43:40 – Chuck: It literally only takes one enthusiast! 43:52 – Guest. 44:11 – Demo of Flickr Search is mentioned here! 45:13 – Panel: Is there something out there that you could POINT someone to? 45:27 – Guest: Not, yet. I built a small site with it! It is opensource and you can look at it. I want to show people a good example of what Lucky can do! 45:57 – Panel: You have very good docs and I am a visual learner. When I learned Rails I learned on my own and not through school. 46:20 – Panelist asks a question. 46:48 – Guest: What a huge advantage Lucky has through the Thoughtbot platform! Now that platform is kind of dried up. In terms of getting people excited it needs that killer app and they can see that it’s fast and killer! I think it takes a lot of time and finding time to do it so that’s tricky. It’s changing a lot when there is so much change. Getting Lucky to a 1.0 state so people can do videos and make apps. The hard part thing is that Lucky has to be 1.0 when Crystal is 1.0. The Lucky community is great b/c it’s encouraging and to respond in a very kind way. When you are starting something that’s new can be scary. We try to help out as much as we can and we are open and kind about it. 49:13 – Panel: “Paul is nice so Lucky is nice!” 49:19 – Guest: Everyone is super kind. It had to be short and simple. We in the dev community are very lucky – usually great pay/benefits and more w/o a college degree. What another field can you do that?! 51:00 – Panel: Great message and you need to push that! 51:10 – Panel: You were on a past podcast and you talked about how you are donating each month! Panel: Opensource maintainers are getting burned out and you want to support that. 51:40 – Guest: I think opensource sustainability what others need to do to make it sustainable. If you have the means to give we can be apart of that, too. It would be nice if companies did that. If it helps Crystal I am happy. 52:17 – Panel: I have a question about Crystal. 52:52 – Guest: Ruby right now you can do C sections right now. 53:01 – Panel. 53:10 – Guest: I don’t think so – it may but I would guess that you could do it but I don’t know how easy it would be. Note: Rust and C are mentioned. 53:37 – Panel comments. 53:46 – Guest: One thing I would say is to check-out the Lucky docs. We are happy to help! 54:10 – Panel: This is a favorite episode of mine! Both of today’s guests have been my favorite! 54:23 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course The DevRev Podcast Show DevChat TV Ruby Elixir Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React Jest.io Mocha.js Webpacker-Cli Amber Lucky The Lucky Philosophy The Bike Shed Thoughtbot CodeFund Lucky: Ruby on Rails to Lucky on Crystal... “Crystal is not Ruby Part 1” GitHub: Bamboo Ex_Machina Dialyxir Crystal Mastery Samsung T5 Carbon Copy Cloner iMazing Awesome-Lucky Paul Smith GitHub Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Samsung SSD Carbon Copy Cloner Application Eric iMazing HEIC Converter Charles Mastodon Andrew Upcase by Thoughtbot Awesome Lucky Paul Tailwind CSS Phoenix Live HTML Chris McCord Elixir Mix Episodes with Chris McCord

Panel: Eric Berry Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Paul Smith and Andrew Mason In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Paul Smith and Andrew Mason! They discuss the platforms Lucky and Crystal. Other topics include: Ruby, Phoenix, Laravel Mix, Thoughtbot, Webpack, compilers, and much more! Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:02 – Chuck: Welcome!! Eric Berry, Nate Hopkins, and myself are the panel - and our special guests are Paul Smith and Andrew Mason. Introduce yourself! 1:41 – Andrew / Guest: I have messed with every type of language, so there’s that! 1:55 – Paul / Guest: I have been here at my current company for 5 years and it’s a consultancy firm. I have been working on Crystal. 2:14 – Chuck: We are lucky to have you! Give people the elevator pitch for Lucky and Crystal? 2:33 – Guest: Let’s talk about Crystal and looks very similar to Ruby! It’s faster and it’s a compound language. It catches a fair amount of things at compile time. The other special features are... 4:17 – Guest mentions compilers. 4:23 – Chuck: Yeah we see this in the typescript. Is it language service – is that what it’s called? Pile and compile and all of this checking are a nice stage for it to run-through. Although the flipside is coding and to not worry about that – that’s nice! 4:56 – Guest: It has changed my approach for sure. 5:43 – Panel: How much slower are you? 5:54 – Guest: I am a lot faster in Crystal than I am in Ruby. 6:51 – Panel: Yeah you have to figure out where you want to save the time. 7:00 – Guest: Someone wrote a blog post and it said...the Rails service is like bolting a shelf on a wall and hoping to hit a stud and it’s not solid. But using Lucky it’s sold although it took a little longer. I think it can be true. You can do bad things with compilers, though. It depends on how you use it. 7:43 – Panelist asks a question. 7:53 – Guest: Every Friday is an investment day. Lucky is my “whatever I want thing.” I am technically getting paid to work on it. 8:33 – Panel: have you had to battle with the framework? 8:51 – Guest: Yes, even though Crystal looks like Ruby (at a high level) if you want to do it well you have to approach it in the Crystal-way. When I came to Crystal I came to it like Rails. The problem with that is I wanted to have type-saved parameters – you can’t do that in Crystal b/c...it doesn’t know when to have a parameter with... 10:48 – Panel: I have heard you talk about Crystal before on another podcast. You talked about templating and I am curious to hear about that. I have used Slim and others and now stick to ERB. 11:25 – Guest: Yes definitely. Let’s back up and talk about WHAT Lucky does! The guest talks about Rails, escaping, and more! 14:37 – Panel: So I imagine Rails partials are slow and expensive to render. I would imagine that this approach with Lucky... 15:00 – Guest: Yes exactly. It’s extremely fast! 15:20 – Panel: How is this for designers? 15:30 – Guest: Yes that was a concern of mine. With Lucky I tried to make it close to a regular HTML structure would look like! 16:32 – Panel: I spun up a Lucky app the other day. It looks like you are using... 16:50 – Guest: I have played around with a bunch of stuff. I landed on Laravel Mix. 18:27 – Panel: Yes webpack is a pain to set up and it’s hard to get it to working the way you want it to work. 18:47 – Guest: Yeah if you want React or whatever it will generate the configuration you need. I don’t like it b/c if you want to... 19:28 – Panel. 19:45 – Guest: I don’t want to maintain it. 19:54 – Panel: There is a Crystal community in Utah. I want to know – are you competing with Amber? Explain the difference between Lucky and Amber? 20:20 – Guest: Yes I did look at Amber but they are approaching it differently than us. The guest talks about the differences between Amber and Lucky. 21:54 – Guest (continues): With Lucky you will have to learn a little bit more but you get more of a pack! 23:23 – Panel: It sounds like Lucky is inspired by Elm – right? 23:32 – Guest: Yeah, I think so. The guest dives into this topic of Elm and Lucky! 24:35 – Panel: How much does the types feel like it’s getting in your way? How explicit is it? When I came to Ruby it was a breath of fresh air. I am a bit reluctant to go back to those days. 25:25 – Guest: I think Lucky does a happy medium. It doesn’t infer instant variables. I like the... 26:28 – Panel: I learned Java very early on in my computer science career. 27:00 – Guest. 27:10 – Panel: “Crystal...it’s not Java!” That should be your slogan! 27:20 – Fresh Books! 28:25 – Panel: A lot of people are moving to Elixir community. Do you see people moving from Ruby to Lucky and Crystal? How does Lucky compare to Phoenix? 28:55 – Guest: Good question! 29:10 – The guest talks about bamboo – see links below!! 29: 29 – Guest: Sure Ruby is fast but sometimes you spend more time on it then you would want to. 31:08 – Guest: Blessing and curse that Crystal looks so much like Ruby. That’s what I thought at first: why would I want to learn this if it’s so similar to Ruby. BUT there are so many benefits to Crystal vs. Ruby. 31:48 – Guest talks about Lucky catching the bugs. 32:00 – Panel: I wonder if that happened with Groovy and Rails? 32:21 – They go back-and-forth. 32:28 – Panel: Thoughtbot has always been on the forefront of Ruby. Can you talk about Thoughbot please? (See links below for Thoughtbot!) 33:15 – Guest: Great question. It’s hard to tell b/c there are different offices. I would say Ruby is our main thing. Ruby is the most mature thing that we use in-terms of web development. Guest: Actually – Rails is pretty nice! 34:54 – Panel: We went through the same thing with CodeFund! I wrote it initially in Python and then I wrote it in Elixir and it became so complex. Now we are moving everything back to Ruby and it’s been a fantastic decision.  36:30 – Chuck: You are talking about the sustainability of open source but there are benefits throughout the company right? There are tons of tangible benefits of doing it, especially when it’s your Friday schedule. You can level-up on things that could help you. I know a lot of companies cannot afford it if they are trying to hustle. 37:42 – Guest: It’s totally not charity through Thoughtbot. It’s a huge help for hiring new people. I know they are okay with letting me work on Lucky b/c it’s bringing on new developers and a good marketing tool, and finally recruiting! 39:07 – Chuck: Yeah, I have been talking about developer freedom and that’s what I am addressing through the DevRev show! It’s my new podcast show. We talk with Chris on Elixir Mix. It lends that credibility if they need to save our bacon. 40:02 – Panel: What’s your goal with Lucky? 40:11 – Guest: I would love to get it to the point where Thoughtbot could start a project and default to Lucky! Start a project and not resting every gem and be confident with launching it. 41:36 – Panelist asks a question. 41:45 – Guest: It’s not 1.0 and that means that the API will break with every release. I think that’s good to tweak stuff but that turns companies off, though. 42:40 – Chuck: Another thing that helps with adoption is Twitter used Rails to build their initial version. This blah, blah company uses important stuff and they are using Crystal and whatnot then that’s good! It sounds like you are waiting for social proof. 43:23 – Guest: Is the next Twitter going to even know about Crystal? 43:40 – Chuck: It literally only takes one enthusiast! 43:52 – Guest. 44:11 – Demo of Flickr Search is mentioned here! 45:13 – Panel: Is there something out there that you could POINT someone to? 45:27 – Guest: Not, yet. I built a small site with it! It is opensource and you can look at it. I want to show people a good example of what Lucky can do! 45:57 – Panel: You have very good docs and I am a visual learner. When I learned Rails I learned on my own and not through school. 46:20 – Panelist asks a question. 46:48 – Guest: What a huge advantage Lucky has through the Thoughtbot platform! Now that platform is kind of dried up. In terms of getting people excited it needs that killer app and they can see that it’s fast and killer! I think it takes a lot of time and finding time to do it so that’s tricky. It’s changing a lot when there is so much change. Getting Lucky to a 1.0 state so people can do videos and make apps. The hard part thing is that Lucky has to be 1.0 when Crystal is 1.0. The Lucky community is great b/c it’s encouraging and to respond in a very kind way. When you are starting something that’s new can be scary. We try to help out as much as we can and we are open and kind about it. 49:13 – Panel: “Paul is nice so Lucky is nice!” 49:19 – Guest: Everyone is super kind. It had to be short and simple. We in the dev community are very lucky – usually great pay/benefits and more w/o a college degree. What another field can you do that?! 51:00 – Panel: Great message and you need to push that! 51:10 – Panel: You were on a past podcast and you talked about how you are donating each month! Panel: Opensource maintainers are getting burned out and you want to support that. 51:40 – Guest: I think opensource sustainability what others need to do to make it sustainable. If you have the means to give we can be apart of that, too. It would be nice if companies did that. If it helps Crystal I am happy. 52:17 – Panel: I have a question about Crystal. 52:52 – Guest: Ruby right now you can do C sections right now. 53:01 – Panel. 53:10 – Guest: I don’t think so – it may but I would guess that you could do it but I don’t know how easy it would be. Note: Rust and C are mentioned. 53:37 – Panel comments. 53:46 – Guest: One thing I would say is to check-out the Lucky docs. We are happy to help! 54:10 – Panel: This is a favorite episode of mine! Both of today’s guests have been my favorite! 54:23 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course The DevRev Podcast Show DevChat TV Ruby Elixir Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React Jest.io Mocha.js Webpacker-Cli Amber Lucky The Lucky Philosophy The Bike Shed Thoughtbot CodeFund Lucky: Ruby on Rails to Lucky on Crystal... “Crystal is not Ruby Part 1” GitHub: Bamboo Ex_Machina Dialyxir Crystal Mastery Samsung T5 Carbon Copy Cloner iMazing Awesome-Lucky Paul Smith GitHub Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Samsung SSD Carbon Copy Cloner Application Eric iMazing HEIC Converter Charles Mastodon Andrew Upcase by Thoughtbot Awesome Lucky Paul Tailwind CSS Phoenix Live HTML Chris McCord Elixir Mix Episodes with Chris McCord

Panel: Eric Berry Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Paul Smith and Andrew Mason In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Paul Smith and Andrew Mason! They discuss the platforms Lucky and Crystal. Other topics include: Ruby, Phoenix, Laravel Mix, Thoughtbot, Webpack, compilers, and much more! Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:02 – Chuck: Welcome!! Eric Berry, Nate Hopkins, and myself are the panel - and our special guests are Paul Smith and Andrew Mason. Introduce yourself! 1:41 – Andrew / Guest: I have messed with every type of language, so there’s that! 1:55 – Paul / Guest: I have been here at my current company for 5 years and it’s a consultancy firm. I have been working on Crystal. 2:14 – Chuck: We are lucky to have you! Give people the elevator pitch for Lucky and Crystal? 2:33 – Guest: Let’s talk about Crystal and looks very similar to Ruby! It’s faster and it’s a compound language. It catches a fair amount of things at compile time. The other special features are... 4:17 – Guest mentions compilers. 4:23 – Chuck: Yeah we see this in the typescript. Is it language service – is that what it’s called? Pile and compile and all of this checking are a nice stage for it to run-through. Although the flipside is coding and to not worry about that – that’s nice! 4:56 – Guest: It has changed my approach for sure. 5:43 – Panel: How much slower are you? 5:54 – Guest: I am a lot faster in Crystal than I am in Ruby. 6:51 – Panel: Yeah you have to figure out where you want to save the time. 7:00 – Guest: Someone wrote a blog post and it said...the Rails service is like bolting a shelf on a wall and hoping to hit a stud and it’s not solid. But using Lucky it’s sold although it took a little longer. I think it can be true. You can do bad things with compilers, though. It depends on how you use it. 7:43 – Panelist asks a question. 7:53 – Guest: Every Friday is an investment day. Lucky is my “whatever I want thing.” I am technically getting paid to work on it. 8:33 – Panel: have you had to battle with the framework? 8:51 – Guest: Yes, even though Crystal looks like Ruby (at a high level) if you want to do it well you have to approach it in the Crystal-way. When I came to Crystal I came to it like Rails. The problem with that is I wanted to have type-saved parameters – you can’t do that in Crystal b/c...it doesn’t know when to have a parameter with... 10:48 – Panel: I have heard you talk about Crystal before on another podcast. You talked about templating and I am curious to hear about that. I have used Slim and others and now stick to ERB. 11:25 – Guest: Yes definitely. Let’s back up and talk about WHAT Lucky does! The guest talks about Rails, escaping, and more! 14:37 – Panel: So I imagine Rails partials are slow and expensive to render. I would imagine that this approach with Lucky... 15:00 – Guest: Yes exactly. It’s extremely fast! 15:20 – Panel: How is this for designers? 15:30 – Guest: Yes that was a concern of mine. With Lucky I tried to make it close to a regular HTML structure would look like! 16:32 – Panel: I spun up a Lucky app the other day. It looks like you are using... 16:50 – Guest: I have played around with a bunch of stuff. I landed on Laravel Mix. 18:27 – Panel: Yes webpack is a pain to set up and it’s hard to get it to working the way you want it to work. 18:47 – Guest: Yeah if you want React or whatever it will generate the configuration you need. I don’t like it b/c if you want to... 19:28 – Panel. 19:45 – Guest: I don’t want to maintain it. 19:54 – Panel: There is a Crystal community in Utah. I want to know – are you competing with Amber? Explain the difference between Lucky and Amber? 20:20 – Guest: Yes I did look at Amber but they are approaching it differently than us. The guest talks about the differences between Amber and Lucky. 21:54 – Guest (continues): With Lucky you will have to learn a little bit more but you get more of a pack! 23:23 – Panel: It sounds like Lucky is inspired by Elm – right? 23:32 – Guest: Yeah, I think so. The guest dives into this topic of Elm and Lucky! 24:35 – Panel: How much does the types feel like it’s getting in your way? How explicit is it? When I came to Ruby it was a breath of fresh air. I am a bit reluctant to go back to those days. 25:25 – Guest: I think Lucky does a happy medium. It doesn’t infer instant variables. I like the... 26:28 – Panel: I learned Java very early on in my computer science career. 27:00 – Guest. 27:10 – Panel: “Crystal...it’s not Java!” That should be your slogan! 27:20 – Fresh Books! 28:25 – Panel: A lot of people are moving to Elixir community. Do you see people moving from Ruby to Lucky and Crystal? How does Lucky compare to Phoenix? 28:55 – Guest: Good question! 29:10 – The guest talks about bamboo – see links below!! 29: 29 – Guest: Sure Ruby is fast but sometimes you spend more time on it then you would want to. 31:08 – Guest: Blessing and curse that Crystal looks so much like Ruby. That’s what I thought at first: why would I want to learn this if it’s so similar to Ruby. BUT there are so many benefits to Crystal vs. Ruby. 31:48 – Guest talks about Lucky catching the bugs. 32:00 – Panel: I wonder if that happened with Groovy and Rails? 32:21 – They go back-and-forth. 32:28 – Panel: Thoughtbot has always been on the forefront of Ruby. Can you talk about Thoughbot please? (See links below for Thoughtbot!) 33:15 – Guest: Great question. It’s hard to tell b/c there are different offices. I would say Ruby is our main thing. Ruby is the most mature thing that we use in-terms of web development. Guest: Actually – Rails is pretty nice! 34:54 – Panel: We went through the same thing with CodeFund! I wrote it initially in Python and then I wrote it in Elixir and it became so complex. Now we are moving everything back to Ruby and it’s been a fantastic decision.  36:30 – Chuck: You are talking about the sustainability of open source but there are benefits throughout the company right? There are tons of tangible benefits of doing it, especially when it’s your Friday schedule. You can level-up on things that could help you. I know a lot of companies cannot afford it if they are trying to hustle. 37:42 – Guest: It’s totally not charity through Thoughtbot. It’s a huge help for hiring new people. I know they are okay with letting me work on Lucky b/c it’s bringing on new developers and a good marketing tool, and finally recruiting! 39:07 – Chuck: Yeah, I have been talking about developer freedom and that’s what I am addressing through the DevRev show! It’s my new podcast show. We talk with Chris on Elixir Mix. It lends that credibility if they need to save our bacon. 40:02 – Panel: What’s your goal with Lucky? 40:11 – Guest: I would love to get it to the point where Thoughtbot could start a project and default to Lucky! Start a project and not resting every gem and be confident with launching it. 41:36 – Panelist asks a question. 41:45 – Guest: It’s not 1.0 and that means that the API will break with every release. I think that’s good to tweak stuff but that turns companies off, though. 42:40 – Chuck: Another thing that helps with adoption is Twitter used Rails to build their initial version. This blah, blah company uses important stuff and they are using Crystal and whatnot then that’s good! It sounds like you are waiting for social proof. 43:23 – Guest: Is the next Twitter going to even know about Crystal? 43:40 – Chuck: It literally only takes one enthusiast! 43:52 – Guest. 44:11 – Demo of Flickr Search is mentioned here! 45:13 – Panel: Is there something out there that you could POINT someone to? 45:27 – Guest: Not, yet. I built a small site with it! It is opensource and you can look at it. I want to show people a good example of what Lucky can do! 45:57 – Panel: You have very good docs and I am a visual learner. When I learned Rails I learned on my own and not through school. 46:20 – Panelist asks a question. 46:48 – Guest: What a huge advantage Lucky has through the Thoughtbot platform! Now that platform is kind of dried up. In terms of getting people excited it needs that killer app and they can see that it’s fast and killer! I think it takes a lot of time and finding time to do it so that’s tricky. It’s changing a lot when there is so much change. Getting Lucky to a 1.0 state so people can do videos and make apps. The hard part thing is that Lucky has to be 1.0 when Crystal is 1.0. The Lucky community is great b/c it’s encouraging and to respond in a very kind way. When you are starting something that’s new can be scary. We try to help out as much as we can and we are open and kind about it. 49:13 – Panel: “Paul is nice so Lucky is nice!” 49:19 – Guest: Everyone is super kind. It had to be short and simple. We in the dev community are very lucky – usually great pay/benefits and more w/o a college degree. What another field can you do that?! 51:00 – Panel: Great message and you need to push that! 51:10 – Panel: You were on a past podcast and you talked about how you are donating each month! Panel: Opensource maintainers are getting burned out and you want to support that. 51:40 – Guest: I think opensource sustainability what others need to do to make it sustainable. If you have the means to give we can be apart of that, too. It would be nice if companies did that. If it helps Crystal I am happy. 52:17 – Panel: I have a question about Crystal. 52:52 – Guest: Ruby right now you can do C sections right now. 53:01 – Panel. 53:10 – Guest: I don’t think so – it may but I would guess that you could do it but I don’t know how easy it would be. Note: Rust and C are mentioned. 53:37 – Panel comments. 53:46 – Guest: One thing I would say is to check-out the Lucky docs. We are happy to help! 54:10 – Panel: This is a favorite episode of mine! Both of today’s guests have been my favorite! 54:23 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course The DevRev Podcast Show DevChat TV Ruby Elixir Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React Jest.io Mocha.js Webpacker-Cli Amber Lucky The Lucky Philosophy The Bike Shed Thoughtbot CodeFund Lucky: Ruby on Rails to Lucky on Crystal... “Crystal is not Ruby Part 1” GitHub: Bamboo Ex_Machina Dialyxir Crystal Mastery Samsung T5 Carbon Copy Cloner iMazing Awesome-Lucky Paul Smith GitHub Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Samsung SSD Carbon Copy Cloner Application Eric iMazing HEIC Converter Charles Mastodon Andrew Upcase by Thoughtbot Awesome Lucky Paul Tailwind CSS Phoenix Live HTML Chris McCord Elixir Mix Episodes with Chris McCord

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Panel: Dave Kimura Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Josh Justice In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Josh Justice who is a developer, writer, and speaker. Josh streams JavaScript and web development on Friday’s at 2:00 PM (ET) here! The panelists and the guest talk about Josh’s background and frontend testing in Ruby. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:04 – Chuck: Hi! Dave, Nate, and myself are on the panel and our special guest is Josh Justice! I am developing a show about developer freedom and it’s called The DevRev. It will be streamed through YouTube, and I will record Friday afternoons. Check out Facebook, too! 2:11 – Josh: Thanks! I am happy to be here! 2:18 – Chuck: Introduce yourself, please! 2:24 – Josh: I have been a developer for about 14 years. I have used PHP and then got into Ruby and then frontend development. 2:46 – Chuck: You work for Big Nerd Ranch in Atlanta? 2:56 – Josh: Yep for the last 3-4 years! 3:15 – Chuck: Can you introduce the topic? 3:25 – The guest talks about Big Nerd Ranch and frontend development. Learn TDD is mentioned, too! Check it out here! 5:06 – Panel: How much bouncing do you do between React and Vue? 5:11 – Guest. 5:47 – Chuck: We need to get you on our podcast shows for React and Vue! It’s an approach that I am familiar with in Ruby – and Selenium what a pain! 6:16 – Guest: I’ve had a good experience with Cypress, actually! 7:47 – Guest: Panelist, can you share your experiences? 7:57 – Panel: Not bad experiences with testing, but now I am trying to minimize my use with JavaScript. 8:30 – Guest: I think there is a big push towards considering more server site rendering. 9:35 – Panel: What’s your recommendation to setup Cypress? 9:40 – Guest: Their docs are really great! They had some conference talks on how to set it up! 10:15 – Guest: Check out my talks about this topic. (Connect Tech 2018). 10:29 – Panel: I think Cypress is a pretty cool solution but one thing that left me confused is that you have to have an environment that is already stood-up and running. Is that accurate or has that changed? 11:00 – Guest: Can you clarify what you mean by a “running environment”? 11:04 – Panelist clarifies. 11:44 – Guest: Luckily for me I have something to say b/c I tried a week ago! 12:01 – Guest mentions Vue CLI 3. 14:38 – Panel: How can you test your code coverage? I want to know how much of my code coverage am I hitting? The applications are up and running, it’s not going through the files (per se), and is there anything that would indicate how good your coverage is with the Cypress test? 15:10 – Guest: Let me as a follow-up question: How do you approach it on the frontend? 15:24 – Panelist answers the guest’s question. 16:06 – The guest mentions Vue CLI 2 & 3. 18:31 – Chuck: Are you using the tool Istanbul? 18:36 – Guest: Yep Istanbul is the one! 18:54 – Chuck: I’ve heard some similar rumors, but can’t say. 19:02 – Panelist talks. 20:13 – Chuck: I have been working on a project and what doesn’t get test-coverage gets a candidate to get pulled-out. 20:40 – Guest: Talking about test-driven development... Guest: Have you read the original book? 21:02 – Guest: The book: “Effective Testing with RSpec 3” is updated information – check it out! The guest mentions his live stream on Friday’s. Check out the links found below! 23:57 – Panel: How is the stability with tests like Cypress with end-to-end tests? If you are testing with a login then the user has to be already created. Or what about a Twitter app – the user has to be created and not followed? How do you handle that? 24:22 – Guest: I think we are spoiled in the Rails world b/c of those... 24:53 – The guest answers the panelist’s question! 26:59 – Fresh Books! 28:07 – Guest: Does that help? 28:10 – Panel. 28:21 – Guest: I have been thinking about this, though, recently. Thinking about the contracts through the business. I have dabbled with native development and I see the cost that runs a native app. 30:21 – Panel: It’s refreshing to hear the new market’s demands. I truly haven’t seen an application that requires that. I have built some extensive applications and also very simple ones, too; the need for productivity. 31:17 – Guest mentions a talk at a conference. See here for that information! 31:43 – Guest: I have a friend who was a new developer and he really knows his stuff. He said that he didn’t know if he could be a full stack developer in the next 5-10 years. Wait a minute?! Guest: The freedom to create something that stands alone. Guest: Tom Dale is mentioned by the Guest. 33:35 – Panel: To choose Rails as a new developer (today) it’s not as easy as it was back in the day. Today you have Active Job, Action Cable and so many other components. It’s more complicated today then it was in the past. It could be overwhelming to a new developer. 35:00 – Chuck: I think a lot of that is the community’s fault and not Rails’ fault. 35:57 – Panel. 36:04 – Panel: The counter-argument could say that’s where server-less come in. 36:27 – Chuck: To some degree you can get away with it. You don’t have to worry about the infrastructure or anything else. 36:44 – Panel: Have you tried messing around with server-less functions with AWS? I have and...it’s not easy. There is not a good flow or good work flow in a server-less environment. 38:01 – Chuck: You can go to this website. It makes the setup easier b/c you are adding your Azure or AWS features. 38:30 – Panel: This topic, though, does tie back to the testing topic we were talking about earlier! 39:14 – Panel: Yeah that is why I haven’t gotten into server-less things. The Rails holistic approach is so appealing. 40:14 – Panel continues: I want to take smaller steps when it comes to technology! I want to move into things that we are laying down the tracks to make it easier travelable. That way we can consider the things we’ve learned in the past and help those in the future. 41:07 – Chuck: What are lacking then? What is the friction that is left? Seems like Cypress helped removed that but maybe not? 42:02 – Panelist mentions Cypress, Jest, Mocha, and others! 43:10 – Panel (continues): I am all about experimenting but I want to know all the reasons. What has changed and what hasn’t’ changed? 43:29 – Panel: There is an article written that talks about this topic. 43:59 – Guest mentions the video “Is TDD Dead?” (See links below.) 44:29 – Guest: I like brining thoughts together and taking his or her input and come up with my own thoughts.  46:32 – Guest (continues): The testing trophy is heavier on the top (picture of a trophy). Guest: I think the thing that draws me to unit testing is that... 47:37 – Guest: I am obsessed with testing. The guest gives a summary here! 48:15 – Chuck: We talked with Quincy Larson last week and it’s a really good take on what we are doing and what we are trying to accomplish with our tests. Check it out – it’s coming out soon! 49:05 – Panel: When you are younger into your career – the way you think about structuring your code – when you are comfortable you really don’t need that guidance. 50:00 – Guest: I would encourage folks who were new to coding to do the following... 51:36 – Guest: Think about WHY you are doing (what you are doing) and being able to articulate well what you are doing and why. 52:03 – Panel: There is no question – every time I test I am surprised how much it shapes my thinking about the code and how many bugs that I catch even in code that I thought was operating well. When you go too far though there is a fallacy there. 52:54 – Panel: Yes, testing is very important. I am a test-after-the-fact programmer. That is my self-key term. Don’t write 500-line methods b/c you won’t be able to test that. Don’t make it too abstract so have a common pattern that you will use. Have a lot of private methods that aren’t exposed to the API. 54:03 – Guest: Yes thinking about how to structure your code can be challenging at first but it gets easier. 55:58 – Chuck: I have had talks with Corey Haines about topics like this! 56:47 – Guest: Yes it can be helpful in consultancy now. 59:23 – Guest: Think about this: choosing what level to test at. 1:00:14 – Panel: It’s hard b/c it changes all the time per function or something else. There are tradeoffs with everything we do. 1:00:41 – Chuck: You are the consultant it depends doesn’t it? 1:00:51 – Picks! 1:00:55 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React VUE CLI 3 Jest.io Mocha.js GitHub: Istanbul The RSpec Book RR 068 Episode Ember CLI GitHub: Factory_Bot GitHub: VCR Big Nerd Ranch Big Nerd Ranch: Josh Justice / Team Manager The Bike Shed Keynote: Tom Dale @ EmberFest 2018 JSJ 291 Episode Serverless Article: Test-Induced Design Damage Video: Is TDD Dead? Music: Sub Conscious – Electronic / 2004 Music: Interloper / 2015 Disney Heroes: Battle Mode Google Play: Disney Heroes / Battle Mode Book Authoring Playlist Tom Dale’s Twitter Corey Haines’ Twitter Coding It Wrong Josh’s Twitter Josh’s GitHub Josh’s LinkedIn Josh’s Vimeo Video Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Phutureprimitive - Sub Conscious Carbon Based Lifeforms - Interloper Dave Dust collections system in Wood Shop Doctor Who  - Theme Music Charles Authoring music Disney Hero Battles Josh Effecting Testing with RSpec 3 Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Test XUnit Test Patterns Spectacle App Alfred App

Panel: Dave Kimura Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Josh Justice In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Josh Justice who is a developer, writer, and speaker. Josh streams JavaScript and web development on Friday’s at 2:00 PM (ET) here! The panelists and the guest talk about Josh’s background and frontend testing in Ruby. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:04 – Chuck: Hi! Dave, Nate, and myself are on the panel and our special guest is Josh Justice! I am developing a show about developer freedom and it’s called The DevRev. It will be streamed through YouTube, and I will record Friday afternoons. Check out Facebook, too! 2:11 – Josh: Thanks! I am happy to be here! 2:18 – Chuck: Introduce yourself, please! 2:24 – Josh: I have been a developer for about 14 years. I have used PHP and then got into Ruby and then frontend development. 2:46 – Chuck: You work for Big Nerd Ranch in Atlanta? 2:56 – Josh: Yep for the last 3-4 years! 3:15 – Chuck: Can you introduce the topic? 3:25 – The guest talks about Big Nerd Ranch and frontend development. Learn TDD is mentioned, too! Check it out here! 5:06 – Panel: How much bouncing do you do between React and Vue? 5:11 – Guest. 5:47 – Chuck: We need to get you on our podcast shows for React and Vue! It’s an approach that I am familiar with in Ruby – and Selenium what a pain! 6:16 – Guest: I’ve had a good experience with Cypress, actually! 7:47 – Guest: Panelist, can you share your experiences? 7:57 – Panel: Not bad experiences with testing, but now I am trying to minimize my use with JavaScript. 8:30 – Guest: I think there is a big push towards considering more server site rendering. 9:35 – Panel: What’s your recommendation to setup Cypress? 9:40 – Guest: Their docs are really great! They had some conference talks on how to set it up! 10:15 – Guest: Check out my talks about this topic. (Connect Tech 2018). 10:29 – Panel: I think Cypress is a pretty cool solution but one thing that left me confused is that you have to have an environment that is already stood-up and running. Is that accurate or has that changed? 11:00 – Guest: Can you clarify what you mean by a “running environment”? 11:04 – Panelist clarifies. 11:44 – Guest: Luckily for me I have something to say b/c I tried a week ago! 12:01 – Guest mentions Vue CLI 3. 14:38 – Panel: How can you test your code coverage? I want to know how much of my code coverage am I hitting? The applications are up and running, it’s not going through the files (per se), and is there anything that would indicate how good your coverage is with the Cypress test? 15:10 – Guest: Let me as a follow-up question: How do you approach it on the frontend? 15:24 – Panelist answers the guest’s question. 16:06 – The guest mentions Vue CLI 2 & 3. 18:31 – Chuck: Are you using the tool Istanbul? 18:36 – Guest: Yep Istanbul is the one! 18:54 – Chuck: I’ve heard some similar rumors, but can’t say. 19:02 – Panelist talks. 20:13 – Chuck: I have been working on a project and what doesn’t get test-coverage gets a candidate to get pulled-out. 20:40 – Guest: Talking about test-driven development... Guest: Have you read the original book? 21:02 – Guest: The book: “Effective Testing with RSpec 3” is updated information – check it out! The guest mentions his live stream on Friday’s. Check out the links found below! 23:57 – Panel: How is the stability with tests like Cypress with end-to-end tests? If you are testing with a login then the user has to be already created. Or what about a Twitter app – the user has to be created and not followed? How do you handle that? 24:22 – Guest: I think we are spoiled in the Rails world b/c of those... 24:53 – The guest answers the panelist’s question! 26:59 – Fresh Books! 28:07 – Guest: Does that help? 28:10 – Panel. 28:21 – Guest: I have been thinking about this, though, recently. Thinking about the contracts through the business. I have dabbled with native development and I see the cost that runs a native app. 30:21 – Panel: It’s refreshing to hear the new market’s demands. I truly haven’t seen an application that requires that. I have built some extensive applications and also very simple ones, too; the need for productivity. 31:17 – Guest mentions a talk at a conference. See here for that information! 31:43 – Guest: I have a friend who was a new developer and he really knows his stuff. He said that he didn’t know if he could be a full stack developer in the next 5-10 years. Wait a minute?! Guest: The freedom to create something that stands alone. Guest: Tom Dale is mentioned by the Guest. 33:35 – Panel: To choose Rails as a new developer (today) it’s not as easy as it was back in the day. Today you have Active Job, Action Cable and so many other components. It’s more complicated today then it was in the past. It could be overwhelming to a new developer. 35:00 – Chuck: I think a lot of that is the community’s fault and not Rails’ fault. 35:57 – Panel. 36:04 – Panel: The counter-argument could say that’s where server-less come in. 36:27 – Chuck: To some degree you can get away with it. You don’t have to worry about the infrastructure or anything else. 36:44 – Panel: Have you tried messing around with server-less functions with AWS? I have and...it’s not easy. There is not a good flow or good work flow in a server-less environment. 38:01 – Chuck: You can go to this website. It makes the setup easier b/c you are adding your Azure or AWS features. 38:30 – Panel: This topic, though, does tie back to the testing topic we were talking about earlier! 39:14 – Panel: Yeah that is why I haven’t gotten into server-less things. The Rails holistic approach is so appealing. 40:14 – Panel continues: I want to take smaller steps when it comes to technology! I want to move into things that we are laying down the tracks to make it easier travelable. That way we can consider the things we’ve learned in the past and help those in the future. 41:07 – Chuck: What are lacking then? What is the friction that is left? Seems like Cypress helped removed that but maybe not? 42:02 – Panelist mentions Cypress, Jest, Mocha, and others! 43:10 – Panel (continues): I am all about experimenting but I want to know all the reasons. What has changed and what hasn’t’ changed? 43:29 – Panel: There is an article written that talks about this topic. 43:59 – Guest mentions the video “Is TDD Dead?” (See links below.) 44:29 – Guest: I like brining thoughts together and taking his or her input and come up with my own thoughts.  46:32 – Guest (continues): The testing trophy is heavier on the top (picture of a trophy). Guest: I think the thing that draws me to unit testing is that... 47:37 – Guest: I am obsessed with testing. The guest gives a summary here! 48:15 – Chuck: We talked with Quincy Larson last week and it’s a really good take on what we are doing and what we are trying to accomplish with our tests. Check it out – it’s coming out soon! 49:05 – Panel: When you are younger into your career – the way you think about structuring your code – when you are comfortable you really don’t need that guidance. 50:00 – Guest: I would encourage folks who were new to coding to do the following... 51:36 – Guest: Think about WHY you are doing (what you are doing) and being able to articulate well what you are doing and why. 52:03 – Panel: There is no question – every time I test I am surprised how much it shapes my thinking about the code and how many bugs that I catch even in code that I thought was operating well. When you go too far though there is a fallacy there. 52:54 – Panel: Yes, testing is very important. I am a test-after-the-fact programmer. That is my self-key term. Don’t write 500-line methods b/c you won’t be able to test that. Don’t make it too abstract so have a common pattern that you will use. Have a lot of private methods that aren’t exposed to the API. 54:03 – Guest: Yes thinking about how to structure your code can be challenging at first but it gets easier. 55:58 – Chuck: I have had talks with Corey Haines about topics like this! 56:47 – Guest: Yes it can be helpful in consultancy now. 59:23 – Guest: Think about this: choosing what level to test at. 1:00:14 – Panel: It’s hard b/c it changes all the time per function or something else. There are tradeoffs with everything we do. 1:00:41 – Chuck: You are the consultant it depends doesn’t it? 1:00:51 – Picks! 1:00:55 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React VUE CLI 3 Jest.io Mocha.js GitHub: Istanbul The RSpec Book RR 068 Episode Ember CLI GitHub: Factory_Bot GitHub: VCR Big Nerd Ranch Big Nerd Ranch: Josh Justice / Team Manager The Bike Shed Keynote: Tom Dale @ EmberFest 2018 JSJ 291 Episode Serverless Article: Test-Induced Design Damage Video: Is TDD Dead? Music: Sub Conscious – Electronic / 2004 Music: Interloper / 2015 Disney Heroes: Battle Mode Google Play: Disney Heroes / Battle Mode Book Authoring Playlist Tom Dale’s Twitter Corey Haines’ Twitter Coding It Wrong Josh’s Twitter Josh’s GitHub Josh’s LinkedIn Josh’s Vimeo Video Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Phutureprimitive - Sub Conscious Carbon Based Lifeforms - Interloper Dave Dust collections system in Wood Shop Doctor Who  - Theme Music Charles Authoring music Disney Hero Battles Josh Effecting Testing with RSpec 3 Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Test XUnit Test Patterns Spectacle App Alfred App

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Panel: Dave Kimura Charles Max Wood Nate Hopkins Special Guest: Josh Justice In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panelists talk with Josh Justice who is a developer, writer, and speaker. Josh streams JavaScript and web development on Friday’s at 2:00 PM (ET) here! The panelists and the guest talk about Josh’s background and frontend testing in Ruby. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Sentry.io 1:04 – Chuck: Hi! Dave, Nate, and myself are on the panel and our special guest is Josh Justice! I am developing a show about developer freedom and it’s called The DevRev. It will be streamed through YouTube, and I will record Friday afternoons. Check out Facebook, too! 2:11 – Josh: Thanks! I am happy to be here! 2:18 – Chuck: Introduce yourself, please! 2:24 – Josh: I have been a developer for about 14 years. I have used PHP and then got into Ruby and then frontend development. 2:46 – Chuck: You work for Big Nerd Ranch in Atlanta? 2:56 – Josh: Yep for the last 3-4 years! 3:15 – Chuck: Can you introduce the topic? 3:25 – The guest talks about Big Nerd Ranch and frontend development. Learn TDD is mentioned, too! Check it out here! 5:06 – Panel: How much bouncing do you do between React and Vue? 5:11 – Guest. 5:47 – Chuck: We need to get you on our podcast shows for React and Vue! It’s an approach that I am familiar with in Ruby – and Selenium what a pain! 6:16 – Guest: I’ve had a good experience with Cypress, actually! 7:47 – Guest: Panelist, can you share your experiences? 7:57 – Panel: Not bad experiences with testing, but now I am trying to minimize my use with JavaScript. 8:30 – Guest: I think there is a big push towards considering more server site rendering. 9:35 – Panel: What’s your recommendation to setup Cypress? 9:40 – Guest: Their docs are really great! They had some conference talks on how to set it up! 10:15 – Guest: Check out my talks about this topic. (Connect Tech 2018). 10:29 – Panel: I think Cypress is a pretty cool solution but one thing that left me confused is that you have to have an environment that is already stood-up and running. Is that accurate or has that changed? 11:00 – Guest: Can you clarify what you mean by a “running environment”? 11:04 – Panelist clarifies. 11:44 – Guest: Luckily for me I have something to say b/c I tried a week ago! 12:01 – Guest mentions Vue CLI 3. 14:38 – Panel: How can you test your code coverage? I want to know how much of my code coverage am I hitting? The applications are up and running, it’s not going through the files (per se), and is there anything that would indicate how good your coverage is with the Cypress test? 15:10 – Guest: Let me as a follow-up question: How do you approach it on the frontend? 15:24 – Panelist answers the guest’s question. 16:06 – The guest mentions Vue CLI 2 & 3. 18:31 – Chuck: Are you using the tool Istanbul? 18:36 – Guest: Yep Istanbul is the one! 18:54 – Chuck: I’ve heard some similar rumors, but can’t say. 19:02 – Panelist talks. 20:13 – Chuck: I have been working on a project and what doesn’t get test-coverage gets a candidate to get pulled-out. 20:40 – Guest: Talking about test-driven development... Guest: Have you read the original book? 21:02 – Guest: The book: “Effective Testing with RSpec 3” is updated information – check it out! The guest mentions his live stream on Friday’s. Check out the links found below! 23:57 – Panel: How is the stability with tests like Cypress with end-to-end tests? If you are testing with a login then the user has to be already created. Or what about a Twitter app – the user has to be created and not followed? How do you handle that? 24:22 – Guest: I think we are spoiled in the Rails world b/c of those... 24:53 – The guest answers the panelist’s question! 26:59 – Fresh Books! 28:07 – Guest: Does that help? 28:10 – Panel. 28:21 – Guest: I have been thinking about this, though, recently. Thinking about the contracts through the business. I have dabbled with native development and I see the cost that runs a native app. 30:21 – Panel: It’s refreshing to hear the new market’s demands. I truly haven’t seen an application that requires that. I have built some extensive applications and also very simple ones, too; the need for productivity. 31:17 – Guest mentions a talk at a conference. See here for that information! 31:43 – Guest: I have a friend who was a new developer and he really knows his stuff. He said that he didn’t know if he could be a full stack developer in the next 5-10 years. Wait a minute?! Guest: The freedom to create something that stands alone. Guest: Tom Dale is mentioned by the Guest. 33:35 – Panel: To choose Rails as a new developer (today) it’s not as easy as it was back in the day. Today you have Active Job, Action Cable and so many other components. It’s more complicated today then it was in the past. It could be overwhelming to a new developer. 35:00 – Chuck: I think a lot of that is the community’s fault and not Rails’ fault. 35:57 – Panel. 36:04 – Panel: The counter-argument could say that’s where server-less come in. 36:27 – Chuck: To some degree you can get away with it. You don’t have to worry about the infrastructure or anything else. 36:44 – Panel: Have you tried messing around with server-less functions with AWS? I have and...it’s not easy. There is not a good flow or good work flow in a server-less environment. 38:01 – Chuck: You can go to this website. It makes the setup easier b/c you are adding your Azure or AWS features. 38:30 – Panel: This topic, though, does tie back to the testing topic we were talking about earlier! 39:14 – Panel: Yeah that is why I haven’t gotten into server-less things. The Rails holistic approach is so appealing. 40:14 – Panel continues: I want to take smaller steps when it comes to technology! I want to move into things that we are laying down the tracks to make it easier travelable. That way we can consider the things we’ve learned in the past and help those in the future. 41:07 – Chuck: What are lacking then? What is the friction that is left? Seems like Cypress helped removed that but maybe not? 42:02 – Panelist mentions Cypress, Jest, Mocha, and others! 43:10 – Panel (continues): I am all about experimenting but I want to know all the reasons. What has changed and what hasn’t’ changed? 43:29 – Panel: There is an article written that talks about this topic. 43:59 – Guest mentions the video “Is TDD Dead?” (See links below.) 44:29 – Guest: I like brining thoughts together and taking his or her input and come up with my own thoughts.  46:32 – Guest (continues): The testing trophy is heavier on the top (picture of a trophy). Guest: I think the thing that draws me to unit testing is that... 47:37 – Guest: I am obsessed with testing. The guest gives a summary here! 48:15 – Chuck: We talked with Quincy Larson last week and it’s a really good take on what we are doing and what we are trying to accomplish with our tests. Check it out – it’s coming out soon! 49:05 – Panel: When you are younger into your career – the way you think about structuring your code – when you are comfortable you really don’t need that guidance. 50:00 – Guest: I would encourage folks who were new to coding to do the following... 51:36 – Guest: Think about WHY you are doing (what you are doing) and being able to articulate well what you are doing and why. 52:03 – Panel: There is no question – every time I test I am surprised how much it shapes my thinking about the code and how many bugs that I catch even in code that I thought was operating well. When you go too far though there is a fallacy there. 52:54 – Panel: Yes, testing is very important. I am a test-after-the-fact programmer. That is my self-key term. Don’t write 500-line methods b/c you won’t be able to test that. Don’t make it too abstract so have a common pattern that you will use. Have a lot of private methods that aren’t exposed to the API. 54:03 – Guest: Yes thinking about how to structure your code can be challenging at first but it gets easier. 55:58 – Chuck: I have had talks with Corey Haines about topics like this! 56:47 – Guest: Yes it can be helpful in consultancy now. 59:23 – Guest: Think about this: choosing what level to test at. 1:00:14 – Panel: It’s hard b/c it changes all the time per function or something else. There are tradeoffs with everything we do. 1:00:41 – Chuck: You are the consultant it depends doesn’t it? 1:00:51 – Picks! 1:00:55 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Ruby Ruby on Rails Angular Cypress Vue React VUE CLI 3 Jest.io Mocha.js GitHub: Istanbul The RSpec Book RR 068 Episode Ember CLI GitHub: Factory_Bot GitHub: VCR Big Nerd Ranch Big Nerd Ranch: Josh Justice / Team Manager The Bike Shed Keynote: Tom Dale @ EmberFest 2018 JSJ 291 Episode Serverless Article: Test-Induced Design Damage Video: Is TDD Dead? Music: Sub Conscious – Electronic / 2004 Music: Interloper / 2015 Disney Heroes: Battle Mode Google Play: Disney Heroes / Battle Mode Book Authoring Playlist Tom Dale’s Twitter Corey Haines’ Twitter Coding It Wrong Josh’s Twitter Josh’s GitHub Josh’s LinkedIn Josh’s Vimeo Video Sponsors: Sentry CacheFly Fresh Books Picks: Nate Phutureprimitive - Sub Conscious Carbon Based Lifeforms - Interloper Dave Dust collections system in Wood Shop Doctor Who  - Theme Music Charles Authoring music Disney Hero Battles Josh Effecting Testing with RSpec 3 Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Test XUnit Test Patterns Spectacle App Alfred App

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Panel: Aaron Frost Brian Love Special Guest: Amir Tugendhaft In this episode, Aaron and Brian talk with Amir Tugendhaft who is a web developer who is located in Israel. He finds much gratification developing and building things from scratch. Check out today’s episode where Aaron, Brian, and Amir talk about just that. Other topics include UI Design, Flexbox, UX design, PrimeNG, and ag-Grid. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: AngularBootCamp.Com 0:52 – Host: Welcome! Today’s panel is myself, Brian, and our guest is Amir Tugendhaft! 1:13 – Guest: I am a developer and experience with Angular and React. 1:56 – Host: You spend your days/nights there? 2:03 – Panel: He is committed. 2:08 – Host: I am going to back up a second, and Brian could you please introduce yourself, please? 2:26 – Brian: I am the CETO at an Angular consulting firm (Denver, CO). We have the pleasure with working with Aaron from time-to-time. My Twitter handle is @brian_love – check it out! 2:52 – Host: What is CETO stand for? 2:59 – Brian answers the question. Brian: I oversee the crew among other things. 3:31 – Host: What do you want to talk about today, Amir? You are the guest of honor today! 3:40 – Guest. 4:00 – Host: That is a lot of information – that might be more than 1 episode. We have to stay focused! 4:14 – Host: I read one of your recent blogs about Cross Filled Violators. I met you through your blog before we did the Host: Give us your own ideas about starting your own app. 4:50 – Guest answers the question. 6:17 – Host: I am biased. But here is a fact. I used to work on a large team (60 people) and everyone committing to the same page app. We were using Angular.js 1.5, which I think they are still using that. I know that it worked but it wasn’t the easiest or fastest one to maintain, but it worked. 7:05 – Brian. 7:10 – Host: What are you trying to do? React doesn’t fulfill that need. I think you are being hyperballic and using extreme cases as the norm. Let’s be honest: we do cool stuff with jQuery plugins when we didn’t have a framework. When they say that the framework is stopping them then I say: I agree to disagree. 8:00 – Host: What do you think, Amir? 8:04 – Guest: I don’t have preferences. I try to build applications through the technologies and create components and simple applications. 8:30 – Brian. 8:33 – Guest: You create the component, and then... 9:21 – Brian: You don’t have to have a template file and another file – right? 9:35 – Guest. 9:48 – Host: I do in-line styles and in-line templates. One thing I learned from React is that I like my HTML, style and code. I like it being the same file as my component. I like that about that: I like single file components. This promotes getting frustrated if it gets too big. Yeah if it’s more than 500 lines than you have to simplify. That’s one of the things that l like. 10:47 – Brian: Modules versus... 10:55 – Guest. 11:07 – Host: I think in React and Vue you have the word module but in JavaScript you have a file that exports... 11:26 – Host: I have my opinion here and talking with Joe. He made a good point: at a certain level the frontend frameworks are the same. You could be doing different things but they basically do the same thing. 13:57 – Guest: Basically what that means is that the technology used it will do the same thing. Your patterns and practices are huge. 14:17 – Brian: If you are talking about the 3 popular frameworks out there – they are basically doing the same thing. I like Angular a little big more, though. Like you said, Aaron, people tend to pick the same one. I like the opinionated things about Angular. You get properties, components or called props or inputs you are getting a lot of the same features. It comes down to your personal preference. 15:31 – Host: What else Amir? 15:35 – Guest: Let’s talk about the UI. 16:05 – Brian. 16:08 – Guest asks a question. 16:25 – Brian: How have you tackled this problem? 16:34 – Guest: I kind of ran with it. If there wasn’t something that I liked I started from scratch, because it really didn’t feel right. 16:51 – Brian: I am an enemy of starting over type of thing. You have a lot of engineers who START projects, and they can say that they start this piece, but the experts and choice team members have what it takes to ship a feature. I mean fully ship it, not just 80%, but also the final 20%. I think it takes a lot of pose decision making to say I want to rewrite it but not right now. I still need to ship this code. I have always been a bigger fan as not rewriting as much as possible; however, if you started with good patterns then that’s true, but if you are starting off with bad patterns then maybe yes. I like that opinion b/c you have to start right. Brian: How do you do your CSS? 19:05 – Guest. 19:52 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 20:30 – Brian: How do you make those decisions, Amir? 20:39 – Guest: I see something that I like and ask myself how do I apply this to my design and I start scaling things. 21:50 – Host: Are you using a tool like Sketch for your initial UI design? 22:05 – Guest. 22:54 – Host: I worked on a project where the client had a designer (UX). 24:00 – Host and Guest go back-and-forth. 24:51 – Host: I am sure it’s all about the quality from your designer, too. Hopefully it works well for you and it’s quality. 25:18 – Host: There is a lot to building an app from scratch. I am not a good designer. I am not a designer – I mean straight-up. I got nothing. I appreciate team members that can do that. 26:06 – Guest: Do you write...? 26:35 – Host: Only on the most recent project. The designer didn’t own the HTML CSS but he initially wrote it and then gave it to me and now I own it, and it’s in components. If he wants updates then I have to go and make changes b/c he doesn’t know Angular. If it’s a sketch or a PNG you have to make it look like that. That’s what most of my career has been. Host: HTML and CSS got me 762x easier once Flexbox came around! I know there is a decimal there! 28:23 – Host talks about Flexbox some more. 28:42 – Guest asks a question. 28:50 – Host: I suppose if I really had heavy needs for a table then I would try CSS grid could solve some problems. I might just use a styled table. 29:12 – Brian: ag-Grid or something else. 29:21 – Host: On this recent project...I’ve used in-house design and other things. If I ever needed a table it was there. I don’t rebuild components b/c that can get expensive for me. 30:50 – Brian: Accessibility. 31:00 – Host: Your upgrade just got 10x harder b/c you own the component loop. I really don’t build tables or drop-downs. Only way is if I really need to build it for a specific request. 31:30 – Brian. 31:58 – Host: Let me give you an example. You can think I am crazy, but a designer gave me a drop-down but he told me to use PrimeNG. I had the chose of building my own drop-down or the designer has to accept whatever they gave him. I made the UI make what he wanted and I made the drop-down zero capacity and then... Host: When you click on what you see you are clicking on the... Host: Does that make sense? 33:35 – Guest. 33:50 – Host. 34:25 – Brian: That is interesting; remember when... 34:58 – Host: We will send this episode to Jeremy – come on Jeremy! Any last ideas? Let’s move onto picks! 35:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 30-day free trial! END – Advertisement – Cache Fly! Links: Vue jQuery Angular React C# What is a UX Design? UI Design Flexbox Sketch ag-Grid PrimeNG Brian Love’s Twitter Aaron Frost’s Medium Amir’s Medium Amir’s Twitter Amir’s GitHub Amir’s LinkedIn Amir’s Facebook Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Cache Fly Picks: Aaron Movie: “A Star Is Born” Concept - Model Driven Forms Amir Puppeteer Arrow Function Converter Brian TV Series: “The 100” Angular Schematics

Panel: Aaron Frost Brian Love Special Guest: Amir Tugendhaft In this episode, Aaron and Brian talk with Amir Tugendhaft who is a web developer who is located in Israel. He finds much gratification developing and building things from scratch. Check out today’s episode where Aaron, Brian, and Amir talk about just that. Other topics include UI Design, Flexbox, UX design, PrimeNG, and ag-Grid. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: AngularBootCamp.Com 0:52 – Host: Welcome! Today’s panel is myself, Brian, and our guest is Amir Tugendhaft! 1:13 – Guest: I am a developer and experience with Angular and React. 1:56 – Host: You spend your days/nights there? 2:03 – Panel: He is committed. 2:08 – Host: I am going to back up a second, and Brian could you please introduce yourself, please? 2:26 – Brian: I am the CETO at an Angular consulting firm (Denver, CO). We have the pleasure with working with Aaron from time-to-time. My Twitter handle is @brian_love – check it out! 2:52 – Host: What is CETO stand for? 2:59 – Brian answers the question. Brian: I oversee the crew among other things. 3:31 – Host: What do you want to talk about today, Amir? You are the guest of honor today! 3:40 – Guest. 4:00 – Host: That is a lot of information – that might be more than 1 episode. We have to stay focused! 4:14 – Host: I read one of your recent blogs about Cross Filled Violators. I met you through your blog before we did the Host: Give us your own ideas about starting your own app. 4:50 – Guest answers the question. 6:17 – Host: I am biased. But here is a fact. I used to work on a large team (60 people) and everyone committing to the same page app. We were using Angular.js 1.5, which I think they are still using that. I know that it worked but it wasn’t the easiest or fastest one to maintain, but it worked. 7:05 – Brian. 7:10 – Host: What are you trying to do? React doesn’t fulfill that need. I think you are being hyperballic and using extreme cases as the norm. Let’s be honest: we do cool stuff with jQuery plugins when we didn’t have a framework. When they say that the framework is stopping them then I say: I agree to disagree. 8:00 – Host: What do you think, Amir? 8:04 – Guest: I don’t have preferences. I try to build applications through the technologies and create components and simple applications. 8:30 – Brian. 8:33 – Guest: You create the component, and then... 9:21 – Brian: You don’t have to have a template file and another file – right? 9:35 – Guest. 9:48 – Host: I do in-line styles and in-line templates. One thing I learned from React is that I like my HTML, style and code. I like it being the same file as my component. I like that about that: I like single file components. This promotes getting frustrated if it gets too big. Yeah if it’s more than 500 lines than you have to simplify. That’s one of the things that l like. 10:47 – Brian: Modules versus... 10:55 – Guest. 11:07 – Host: I think in React and Vue you have the word module but in JavaScript you have a file that exports... 11:26 – Host: I have my opinion here and talking with Joe. He made a good point: at a certain level the frontend frameworks are the same. You could be doing different things but they basically do the same thing. 13:57 – Guest: Basically what that means is that the technology used it will do the same thing. Your patterns and practices are huge. 14:17 – Brian: If you are talking about the 3 popular frameworks out there – they are basically doing the same thing. I like Angular a little big more, though. Like you said, Aaron, people tend to pick the same one. I like the opinionated things about Angular. You get properties, components or called props or inputs you are getting a lot of the same features. It comes down to your personal preference. 15:31 – Host: What else Amir? 15:35 – Guest: Let’s talk about the UI. 16:05 – Brian. 16:08 – Guest asks a question. 16:25 – Brian: How have you tackled this problem? 16:34 – Guest: I kind of ran with it. If there wasn’t something that I liked I started from scratch, because it really didn’t feel right. 16:51 – Brian: I am an enemy of starting over type of thing. You have a lot of engineers who START projects, and they can say that they start this piece, but the experts and choice team members have what it takes to ship a feature. I mean fully ship it, not just 80%, but also the final 20%. I think it takes a lot of pose decision making to say I want to rewrite it but not right now. I still need to ship this code. I have always been a bigger fan as not rewriting as much as possible; however, if you started with good patterns then that’s true, but if you are starting off with bad patterns then maybe yes. I like that opinion b/c you have to start right. Brian: How do you do your CSS? 19:05 – Guest. 19:52 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 20:30 – Brian: How do you make those decisions, Amir? 20:39 – Guest: I see something that I like and ask myself how do I apply this to my design and I start scaling things. 21:50 – Host: Are you using a tool like Sketch for your initial UI design? 22:05 – Guest. 22:54 – Host: I worked on a project where the client had a designer (UX). 24:00 – Host and Guest go back-and-forth. 24:51 – Host: I am sure it’s all about the quality from your designer, too. Hopefully it works well for you and it’s quality. 25:18 – Host: There is a lot to building an app from scratch. I am not a good designer. I am not a designer – I mean straight-up. I got nothing. I appreciate team members that can do that. 26:06 – Guest: Do you write...? 26:35 – Host: Only on the most recent project. The designer didn’t own the HTML CSS but he initially wrote it and then gave it to me and now I own it, and it’s in components. If he wants updates then I have to go and make changes b/c he doesn’t know Angular. If it’s a sketch or a PNG you have to make it look like that. That’s what most of my career has been. Host: HTML and CSS got me 762x easier once Flexbox came around! I know there is a decimal there! 28:23 – Host talks about Flexbox some more. 28:42 – Guest asks a question. 28:50 – Host: I suppose if I really had heavy needs for a table then I would try CSS grid could solve some problems. I might just use a styled table. 29:12 – Brian: ag-Grid or something else. 29:21 – Host: On this recent project...I’ve used in-house design and other things. If I ever needed a table it was there. I don’t rebuild components b/c that can get expensive for me. 30:50 – Brian: Accessibility. 31:00 – Host: Your upgrade just got 10x harder b/c you own the component loop. I really don’t build tables or drop-downs. Only way is if I really need to build it for a specific request. 31:30 – Brian. 31:58 – Host: Let me give you an example. You can think I am crazy, but a designer gave me a drop-down but he told me to use PrimeNG. I had the chose of building my own drop-down or the designer has to accept whatever they gave him. I made the UI make what he wanted and I made the drop-down zero capacity and then... Host: When you click on what you see you are clicking on the... Host: Does that make sense? 33:35 – Guest. 33:50 – Host. 34:25 – Brian: That is interesting; remember when... 34:58 – Host: We will send this episode to Jeremy – come on Jeremy! Any last ideas? Let’s move onto picks! 35:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 30-day free trial! END – Advertisement – Cache Fly! Links: Vue jQuery Angular React C# What is a UX Design? UI Design Flexbox Sketch ag-Grid PrimeNG Brian Love’s Twitter Aaron Frost’s Medium Amir’s Medium Amir’s Twitter Amir’s GitHub Amir’s LinkedIn Amir’s Facebook Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Cache Fly Picks: Aaron Movie: “A Star Is Born” Concept - Model Driven Forms Amir Puppeteer Arrow Function Converter Brian TV Series: “The 100” Angular Schematics

Panel: Aaron Frost Brian Love Special Guest: Amir Tugendhaft In this episode, Aaron and Brian talk with Amir Tugendhaft who is a web developer who is located in Israel. He finds much gratification developing and building things from scratch. Check out today’s episode where Aaron, Brian, and Amir talk about just that. Other topics include UI Design, Flexbox, UX design, PrimeNG, and ag-Grid. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: AngularBootCamp.Com 0:52 – Host: Welcome! Today’s panel is myself, Brian, and our guest is Amir Tugendhaft! 1:13 – Guest: I am a developer and experience with Angular and React. 1:56 – Host: You spend your days/nights there? 2:03 – Panel: He is committed. 2:08 – Host: I am going to back up a second, and Brian could you please introduce yourself, please? 2:26 – Brian: I am the CETO at an Angular consulting firm (Denver, CO). We have the pleasure with working with Aaron from time-to-time. My Twitter handle is @brian_love – check it out! 2:52 – Host: What is CETO stand for? 2:59 – Brian answers the question. Brian: I oversee the crew among other things. 3:31 – Host: What do you want to talk about today, Amir? You are the guest of honor today! 3:40 – Guest. 4:00 – Host: That is a lot of information – that might be more than 1 episode. We have to stay focused! 4:14 – Host: I read one of your recent blogs about Cross Filled Violators. I met you through your blog before we did the Host: Give us your own ideas about starting your own app. 4:50 – Guest answers the question. 6:17 – Host: I am biased. But here is a fact. I used to work on a large team (60 people) and everyone committing to the same page app. We were using Angular.js 1.5, which I think they are still using that. I know that it worked but it wasn’t the easiest or fastest one to maintain, but it worked. 7:05 – Brian. 7:10 – Host: What are you trying to do? React doesn’t fulfill that need. I think you are being hyperballic and using extreme cases as the norm. Let’s be honest: we do cool stuff with jQuery plugins when we didn’t have a framework. When they say that the framework is stopping them then I say: I agree to disagree. 8:00 – Host: What do you think, Amir? 8:04 – Guest: I don’t have preferences. I try to build applications through the technologies and create components and simple applications. 8:30 – Brian. 8:33 – Guest: You create the component, and then... 9:21 – Brian: You don’t have to have a template file and another file – right? 9:35 – Guest. 9:48 – Host: I do in-line styles and in-line templates. One thing I learned from React is that I like my HTML, style and code. I like it being the same file as my component. I like that about that: I like single file components. This promotes getting frustrated if it gets too big. Yeah if it’s more than 500 lines than you have to simplify. That’s one of the things that l like. 10:47 – Brian: Modules versus... 10:55 – Guest. 11:07 – Host: I think in React and Vue you have the word module but in JavaScript you have a file that exports... 11:26 – Host: I have my opinion here and talking with Joe. He made a good point: at a certain level the frontend frameworks are the same. You could be doing different things but they basically do the same thing. 13:57 – Guest: Basically what that means is that the technology used it will do the same thing. Your patterns and practices are huge. 14:17 – Brian: If you are talking about the 3 popular frameworks out there – they are basically doing the same thing. I like Angular a little big more, though. Like you said, Aaron, people tend to pick the same one. I like the opinionated things about Angular. You get properties, components or called props or inputs you are getting a lot of the same features. It comes down to your personal preference. 15:31 – Host: What else Amir? 15:35 – Guest: Let’s talk about the UI. 16:05 – Brian. 16:08 – Guest asks a question. 16:25 – Brian: How have you tackled this problem? 16:34 – Guest: I kind of ran with it. If there wasn’t something that I liked I started from scratch, because it really didn’t feel right. 16:51 – Brian: I am an enemy of starting over type of thing. You have a lot of engineers who START projects, and they can say that they start this piece, but the experts and choice team members have what it takes to ship a feature. I mean fully ship it, not just 80%, but also the final 20%. I think it takes a lot of pose decision making to say I want to rewrite it but not right now. I still need to ship this code. I have always been a bigger fan as not rewriting as much as possible; however, if you started with good patterns then that’s true, but if you are starting off with bad patterns then maybe yes. I like that opinion b/c you have to start right. Brian: How do you do your CSS? 19:05 – Guest. 19:52 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 20:30 – Brian: How do you make those decisions, Amir? 20:39 – Guest: I see something that I like and ask myself how do I apply this to my design and I start scaling things. 21:50 – Host: Are you using a tool like Sketch for your initial UI design? 22:05 – Guest. 22:54 – Host: I worked on a project where the client had a designer (UX). 24:00 – Host and Guest go back-and-forth. 24:51 – Host: I am sure it’s all about the quality from your designer, too. Hopefully it works well for you and it’s quality. 25:18 – Host: There is a lot to building an app from scratch. I am not a good designer. I am not a designer – I mean straight-up. I got nothing. I appreciate team members that can do that. 26:06 – Guest: Do you write...? 26:35 – Host: Only on the most recent project. The designer didn’t own the HTML CSS but he initially wrote it and then gave it to me and now I own it, and it’s in components. If he wants updates then I have to go and make changes b/c he doesn’t know Angular. If it’s a sketch or a PNG you have to make it look like that. That’s what most of my career has been. Host: HTML and CSS got me 762x easier once Flexbox came around! I know there is a decimal there! 28:23 – Host talks about Flexbox some more. 28:42 – Guest asks a question. 28:50 – Host: I suppose if I really had heavy needs for a table then I would try CSS grid could solve some problems. I might just use a styled table. 29:12 – Brian: ag-Grid or something else. 29:21 – Host: On this recent project...I’ve used in-house design and other things. If I ever needed a table it was there. I don’t rebuild components b/c that can get expensive for me. 30:50 – Brian: Accessibility. 31:00 – Host: Your upgrade just got 10x harder b/c you own the component loop. I really don’t build tables or drop-downs. Only way is if I really need to build it for a specific request. 31:30 – Brian. 31:58 – Host: Let me give you an example. You can think I am crazy, but a designer gave me a drop-down but he told me to use PrimeNG. I had the chose of building my own drop-down or the designer has to accept whatever they gave him. I made the UI make what he wanted and I made the drop-down zero capacity and then... Host: When you click on what you see you are clicking on the... Host: Does that make sense? 33:35 – Guest. 33:50 – Host. 34:25 – Brian: That is interesting; remember when... 34:58 – Host: We will send this episode to Jeremy – come on Jeremy! Any last ideas? Let’s move onto picks! 35:20 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 30-day free trial! END – Advertisement – Cache Fly! Links: Vue jQuery Angular React C# What is a UX Design? UI Design Flexbox Sketch ag-Grid PrimeNG Brian Love’s Twitter Aaron Frost’s Medium Amir’s Medium Amir’s Twitter Amir’s GitHub Amir’s LinkedIn Amir’s Facebook Sponsors: Angular Boot Camp Fresh Books Get a Coder Job Course Cache Fly Picks: Aaron Movie: “A Star Is Born” Concept - Model Driven Forms Amir Puppeteer Arrow Function Converter Brian TV Series: “The 100” Angular Schematics

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Sasa Juric In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Sasa Juric who is the author of Elixir in Action (2nd edition) and uses Elixir, Erlang, and OTP. He is from Zagreb, Croatia and you can check out his blog here! The panel talks about his book, past and current projects, in addition to configurations, and Elixir. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 0:50 – Chuck: Panel. Our guest is Sasa Juric. Introduce yourself to us please. 1:12 – Guest: I am known for writing my book and my blogs. I am president to the Elixir forum and helping people out. I have been using Elixir for 5 years; in the past I have used C++ and others. 1:46 – Chuck: App env and configuration and sounds like we could talk about more. Let’s start there, though. 1:59 – Guest. 2:03 – Panel: A little background with configuration b/c it’s been a topic in the community. There is a lot of discussion around it. What is the right way? And there is a change in how we deploy software. We have more docker containers and multiple stages of deployment and tons of configurations through environment settings. Anything you can talk about that? 2:51 – (Guest answers those questions. He discusses in detail about docker configurations. Also, the guest talks about the various settings per the different environments.) 7:25 – Panel: That was a thorough summary. 7:29 – Guest: I can talk more. 7:35 – Panel: So we have background on configuration is setup and the goals we have. What are some of the ways that a person with Elixir – how do they start? Tips / advice? They have their app and trying to go to production? 8:22 – (Guest answers the question.) Guest: 90% of the time, this is what you want to do. This is what you do...build it and put it in the folder structure, and you are good to go. Why is this good? You don’t have to have a bunch of... If you are using Phoenix than you need Node.js and you don’t want to have that on your production. You can easily run side-by-side different versions of Erlang and Phoenix. 11:40 – Panel: You can do that in a single docker file? 11:47 – Guest. 11:51 – Panel: You just copy the files... 11:56 – Panel: I learned I could do that by the distiller 2.0...I hadn’t encountered that before. 12:11 – Guest: Look into the distillery. I want to give compliments to Paul and the team is great. Go to Distillery and see the tutorials. 12:37 – Panel: People think I don’t want to use docker there is an option.... 13:01 – Guest. 13:04 – Chuck: Different types of configuration? 13:13 – Guest: Right this discussion too which is probably talking about my blog post, and I have this wild thought about configurations. We can discuss the issues and different solutions. We have these configurations files and they contain these time various configurations and... There is usually more than 1 configuration file. 17:53 – Panel: You only get agreement. I have had that problem, too, saying what is this configuration? What are THE Settings that are present and yeah that is a problem? You identify these problems in your blog, where it’s not checked in and the code will not... I have had to work around that in my projects. We are going to create a sample project and it will have defaults. So we can improve the situation. 18:45 – Panel: Class based configurations – I get angry. 19:05 – Guest: I try to challenge this status quo. Some people agree and others disagree. Some say this blanket statement. 19:54 – Loot Crate! 20:47 – Guest: Another thing to note is that configurations are free form key values. Remember, my point is that it boils down to some function being involved with these values. (Guest continues...) 23:36 – What is your direction that you are proposing? 23:40 – Guest: We are going to discuss other issues. 23:49 – Panel: As background, as apart of that whole configuration in those distillery docs... 24:41 – What is the next step in the discussion? 24:48 – Guest: Let’s take a step back. (Guest talks about Distillery 2.0.) 27:09 – Guest continues... 29:50 – Panel: That makes sense and flexible. 29:58 – Guest: The other complaint is that the Phoenix generator is pushing the community in the wrong direction by forcing a lot of things by default. When you generate your project with... My team we have used the configuration b/c it seems the right way to do, but what constitutes this? Should this go here and what is a configuration? 30:52 – Panel: I don’t have a synced answer – I don’t have a boundary to say what does or doesn’t’ go in there. 31:13 – Guest: Like the operator might decide to change the HPP port or maybe you want to...? You have to make the decision – what will those things be? 31:32 – Panel: React to a configuration change, it’s very clear to... 31:57 – Guest: It is very arbitrary by its nature. One of the main things (in the blog post) my coworker said it felt like a configuration. What does that mean? Should we have some sort of rules? What is a configuration and what isn’t? 32:33 – Panel comments. 32:55 – Guest: Now I am swinging in a new extreme. You started with parameters nothing more and there is nothing more than functions and parameters. 34:41 – Chuck: You keep bringing up JSON is there a reason why? 34:55 – Guest: I am not a super fan of JSON for various reasons but we decided on JSON b/c it’s fairly easy. Most of our clients and admin can add it. 35:18 – Chuck: Asks a question. 35:30 – Guest: Getting a configuration... 36:35 – Panel. 36:39 – Guest: With Distillery 2.0... 36:47 – Chuck: What formats do you like if you don’t like JSON? 36:58 – Guest: I am not sure. I would like to run everything in Elixir directly. 37:47 – Panel: I have been using Kubernetes. I like that I can have comments. 38:00 – Panel. 38:10 – Panel. 38:17 – JSON is terrible but you can use it and everyone can, too. 38:27 – Guest: I would probably pick JSON between those two. It’s the lesser of 2 evils. 38:40 – Panel. 39:03 – Guest: The key is to clean up this configuration in the first place. My impression is... 39:30 – Panel: I wrote a library, and there was configuration but it doesn’t belong – it’s not a configuration setting nor...so where should those kinds of settings be? I know they are just parameters, but...so we can pull out our configuration files? 40:11 – Guest: It should be grouped by scope. Take Phoenix application... 41:54 – Panel: That’s your exposed configuration – conceivably – but it should be hard coded. 42:04 – Guest: It won’t be hard coded, and the server will be different in production than your machine. 42:17 – Panel. 42:30 – Guest: Precisely. You have to ask: is this a configured parameter or not? 42:43 – Chuck: Can you talk about how to encrypt and/or protect these secrets? 42:56 – Guest: There are these secrets that are broad secrets via...and it depends on you how you’re going to protect them. Use some encryption scheme. 43:20 – Panel. 43:28 – Guest: Right. 43:31 – Chuck: In Rails it has a secret file, too and you have to provide the key to the app. Then your KEY is a secret. It feels like this circular problem. 43:53 – Guest. 44:54 – Panel: When you are dealing with that sort of thing...library will absolutely assume...and it limits flexibility. 45:17 – Guest: It’s not just an Elixir thing I have seen it in Erlang, too. 47:32 – Chuck: Any stories of people getting this wrong or right? I guess people don’t talk about that; any good stories? 47:54 – Guest: A lot of stories, actually!  49:52 – Panel: Being that Elixir is a more functional language, how do I put in a configuration that will be available at runtime and available very early. I think that is why we stick things up there by putting it in there. 50:35 – Panel. 50:43 – Panel: If it is a library and passes it to a configuration - where does it put it? 50:53 – Panel: A library and not an application... 51:05 – Guest. 51:45 – Panel: Where do I put it? 52:03 – Guest: There are some libraries that have to be configured before we start. The only case that needs some setting before we start is LOGGER. 53:00 – Panel. 53:15 – Guest. 54:00 – (Guest mentions à la Carte – check it out here! It’s just a factory.) 55:38 – Chuck: Let’s do picks! 55:46 – Fresh Books! Links: Ruby Elixir JavaScript React Erlang Kubernetes JSON Logger Docker Config Rethinking App Env Distillery Documentation Elixir in Action Elixir in Action – Book – 2nd edition Elixir – Library Guidelines Elixir Forum The 12-Factor App Distillery’s Documentation GitHub: Toml-Elixir GitHub: Riak_Ensemble GitHub: Elm – Beam GitHub: CodeC-Beam Library Guidelines – Elixir Configuring Elixir Libraries Handling Configurations Etcher Tweet Mashup Sasa’s YouTube Video Sasa’s Twitter Sasa’s GitHub Sasa’s Information at Elixir Conf Sasa’s LinkedIn Josh Adams’ Email: josh@smoothterminal.com Sponsors: Loot Crate Fresh Books Cache Fly Get a Coder Job! Picks: Sasa Run-time Library Guidelines Elixir in Action – Book – 2nd edition The Erlangelist Solid Ground Chuck Tweet Mashup My JavaScript Story Channel Shush App Mark Etcher.io Josh Elm Beam

Panel: Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Sasa Juric In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Sasa Juric who is the author of Elixir in Action (2nd edition) and uses Elixir, Erlang, and OTP. He is from Zagreb, Croatia and you can check out his blog here! The panel talks about his book, past and current projects, in addition to configurations, and Elixir. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 0:50 – Chuck: Panel. Our guest is Sasa Juric. Introduce yourself to us please. 1:12 – Guest: I am known for writing my book and my blogs. I am president to the Elixir forum and helping people out. I have been using Elixir for 5 years; in the past I have used C++ and others. 1:46 – Chuck: App env and configuration and sounds like we could talk about more. Let’s start there, though. 1:59 – Guest. 2:03 – Panel: A little background with configuration b/c it’s been a topic in the community. There is a lot of discussion around it. What is the right way? And there is a change in how we deploy software. We have more docker containers and multiple stages of deployment and tons of configurations through environment settings. Anything you can talk about that? 2:51 – (Guest answers those questions. He discusses in detail about docker configurations. Also, the guest talks about the various settings per the different environments.) 7:25 – Panel: That was a thorough summary. 7:29 – Guest: I can talk more. 7:35 – Panel: So we have background on configuration is setup and the goals we have. What are some of the ways that a person with Elixir – how do they start? Tips / advice? They have their app and trying to go to production? 8:22 – (Guest answers the question.) Guest: 90% of the time, this is what you want to do. This is what you do...build it and put it in the folder structure, and you are good to go. Why is this good? You don’t have to have a bunch of... If you are using Phoenix than you need Node.js and you don’t want to have that on your production. You can easily run side-by-side different versions of Erlang and Phoenix. 11:40 – Panel: You can do that in a single docker file? 11:47 – Guest. 11:51 – Panel: You just copy the files... 11:56 – Panel: I learned I could do that by the distiller 2.0...I hadn’t encountered that before. 12:11 – Guest: Look into the distillery. I want to give compliments to Paul and the team is great. Go to Distillery and see the tutorials. 12:37 – Panel: People think I don’t want to use docker there is an option.... 13:01 – Guest. 13:04 – Chuck: Different types of configuration? 13:13 – Guest: Right this discussion too which is probably talking about my blog post, and I have this wild thought about configurations. We can discuss the issues and different solutions. We have these configurations files and they contain these time various configurations and... There is usually more than 1 configuration file. 17:53 – Panel: You only get agreement. I have had that problem, too, saying what is this configuration? What are THE Settings that are present and yeah that is a problem? You identify these problems in your blog, where it’s not checked in and the code will not... I have had to work around that in my projects. We are going to create a sample project and it will have defaults. So we can improve the situation. 18:45 – Panel: Class based configurations – I get angry. 19:05 – Guest: I try to challenge this status quo. Some people agree and others disagree. Some say this blanket statement. 19:54 – Loot Crate! 20:47 – Guest: Another thing to note is that configurations are free form key values. Remember, my point is that it boils down to some function being involved with these values. (Guest continues...) 23:36 – What is your direction that you are proposing? 23:40 – Guest: We are going to discuss other issues. 23:49 – Panel: As background, as apart of that whole configuration in those distillery docs... 24:41 – What is the next step in the discussion? 24:48 – Guest: Let’s take a step back. (Guest talks about Distillery 2.0.) 27:09 – Guest continues... 29:50 – Panel: That makes sense and flexible. 29:58 – Guest: The other complaint is that the Phoenix generator is pushing the community in the wrong direction by forcing a lot of things by default. When you generate your project with... My team we have used the configuration b/c it seems the right way to do, but what constitutes this? Should this go here and what is a configuration? 30:52 – Panel: I don’t have a synced answer – I don’t have a boundary to say what does or doesn’t’ go in there. 31:13 – Guest: Like the operator might decide to change the HPP port or maybe you want to...? You have to make the decision – what will those things be? 31:32 – Panel: React to a configuration change, it’s very clear to... 31:57 – Guest: It is very arbitrary by its nature. One of the main things (in the blog post) my coworker said it felt like a configuration. What does that mean? Should we have some sort of rules? What is a configuration and what isn’t? 32:33 – Panel comments. 32:55 – Guest: Now I am swinging in a new extreme. You started with parameters nothing more and there is nothing more than functions and parameters. 34:41 – Chuck: You keep bringing up JSON is there a reason why? 34:55 – Guest: I am not a super fan of JSON for various reasons but we decided on JSON b/c it’s fairly easy. Most of our clients and admin can add it. 35:18 – Chuck: Asks a question. 35:30 – Guest: Getting a configuration... 36:35 – Panel. 36:39 – Guest: With Distillery 2.0... 36:47 – Chuck: What formats do you like if you don’t like JSON? 36:58 – Guest: I am not sure. I would like to run everything in Elixir directly. 37:47 – Panel: I have been using Kubernetes. I like that I can have comments. 38:00 – Panel. 38:10 – Panel. 38:17 – JSON is terrible but you can use it and everyone can, too. 38:27 – Guest: I would probably pick JSON between those two. It’s the lesser of 2 evils. 38:40 – Panel. 39:03 – Guest: The key is to clean up this configuration in the first place. My impression is... 39:30 – Panel: I wrote a library, and there was configuration but it doesn’t belong – it’s not a configuration setting nor...so where should those kinds of settings be? I know they are just parameters, but...so we can pull out our configuration files? 40:11 – Guest: It should be grouped by scope. Take Phoenix application... 41:54 – Panel: That’s your exposed configuration – conceivably – but it should be hard coded. 42:04 – Guest: It won’t be hard coded, and the server will be different in production than your machine. 42:17 – Panel. 42:30 – Guest: Precisely. You have to ask: is this a configured parameter or not? 42:43 – Chuck: Can you talk about how to encrypt and/or protect these secrets? 42:56 – Guest: There are these secrets that are broad secrets via...and it depends on you how you’re going to protect them. Use some encryption scheme. 43:20 – Panel. 43:28 – Guest: Right. 43:31 – Chuck: In Rails it has a secret file, too and you have to provide the key to the app. Then your KEY is a secret. It feels like this circular problem. 43:53 – Guest. 44:54 – Panel: When you are dealing with that sort of thing...library will absolutely assume...and it limits flexibility. 45:17 – Guest: It’s not just an Elixir thing I have seen it in Erlang, too. 47:32 – Chuck: Any stories of people getting this wrong or right? I guess people don’t talk about that; any good stories? 47:54 – Guest: A lot of stories, actually!  49:52 – Panel: Being that Elixir is a more functional language, how do I put in a configuration that will be available at runtime and available very early. I think that is why we stick things up there by putting it in there. 50:35 – Panel. 50:43 – Panel: If it is a library and passes it to a configuration - where does it put it? 50:53 – Panel: A library and not an application... 51:05 – Guest. 51:45 – Panel: Where do I put it? 52:03 – Guest: There are some libraries that have to be configured before we start. The only case that needs some setting before we start is LOGGER. 53:00 – Panel. 53:15 – Guest. 54:00 – (Guest mentions à la Carte – check it out here! It’s just a factory.) 55:38 – Chuck: Let’s do picks! 55:46 – Fresh Books! Links: Ruby Elixir JavaScript React Erlang Kubernetes JSON Logger Docker Config Rethinking App Env Distillery Documentation Elixir in Action Elixir in Action – Book – 2nd edition Elixir – Library Guidelines Elixir Forum The 12-Factor App Distillery’s Documentation GitHub: Toml-Elixir GitHub: Riak_Ensemble GitHub: Elm – Beam GitHub: CodeC-Beam Library Guidelines – Elixir Configuring Elixir Libraries Handling Configurations Etcher Tweet Mashup Sasa’s YouTube Video Sasa’s Twitter Sasa’s GitHub Sasa’s Information at Elixir Conf Sasa’s LinkedIn Josh Adams’ Email: josh@smoothterminal.com Sponsors: Loot Crate Fresh Books Cache Fly Get a Coder Job! Picks: Sasa Run-time Library Guidelines Elixir in Action – Book – 2nd edition The Erlangelist Solid Ground Chuck Tweet Mashup My JavaScript Story Channel Shush App Mark Etcher.io Josh Elm Beam

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Joe Eames John Papa Special Guest: Mike Hartington and Michael Tintiuc In this episode, the panel talks with Mike and Michael who are developers of Ionic. The panel and the guests talk about the ins-and-outs of the framework and talk about the pros and cons, too. Listen to today’s episode to hear how they discuss how Ionic is compatible with Vue and Angular. Finally, they talk about various topics, such as Cordova and Capacitor. Show Topics: 1:19 – Mike H. gives his background. He uses JavaScript every day. 1:30 – Michael T. gives his background. 1:53 – Chuck: Yes, today we are talking about Ionic. Why are we talking about that on a Vue Podcast? 2:08 – Let’s talk about what Ionic is first? 2:16 – Guest gives us the definition / background of what IONIC is. 2:32 – Guest: We have been tied to Angular (back in the day), which were Ember and jQuery bindings. We have come a far way. (He talks about web components.) Guest: We spent a year diving into web components and interweaving that with Angular. Now we are exploring other framework options. Now we are looking at Ionic with Vue. 3:34 – Chuck: I have played with Ionic, and it’s fairly to use. It’s exciting to see it come this way. I’m curious what does that look like b/c Angular and Vue aren’t the same. 4:10 – Guest explains and answers Chuck’s question. 4:50 – Chuck: Is it like using...under the hood? 4:58 – Guest: No. (He goes into detail.) 5:08 – I didn’t know that Stencil was built by that team. 5:19 – Guest: We built a 2nd project. 5:28 – Guest: There are 24 hours in a day. 5:39 – Panel: How is Ionic different than other options? 5:59 – Guest: It’s comparable to Frameworks 7. The components that you generate are all web0based. The component that you put in is the same for the web or Android. You can have 100% code reuse. 6:35 – Panel: It’s actual CSS? 6:41 – Guest: It’s full-blown CSS. If you wanted to do CSS animations then whatever the browser can support. 6:56 – Panel: Advantages or disadvantages? 7:04 – Guest: It’s easier to maintain. If you are making the next Photo Shop...(super heavy graphics) maybe web and web APIs aren’t the right way to go. 8:23 – You have access to less intense stuff? 8:34 – Guest: Yes. 8:39 – Question. 8:46 – Guest: 2 different approaches to this. 1 approach is CORDOVA and the other is CAPACITOR. 9:42 – Anything that has been built with Ionic? 9:47 – Guest: App called Untapped? Or the fitness app, SWORKIT! MarketWatch is another one. We have a whole showcase page that you can check out. 10:57 – Few apps out there that use Ionic for everything. 11:06 – Panel: I have done work with Ionic in the past. I found a sweet spot for business apps. There are things behind enterprise walls that customers can use but necessarily others. We have decided to go native and found that Ionic wasn’t a good fit. How do you feel? 11:51 – Guest: We do hear that a lot. People want to make a quick app and then... 12:20 – Panel: We chose Ionic in this project b/c we had to get it out in less than 6 weeks and the team knew JavaScript. Nobody knew Ionic besides me. After that, nothing broke and that’s a huge praise. 12:55 – Guest: I will take that good praise. 13:01 – Panel: How is it used with Vue? 13:07 – Guest: The Vue work that we’ve been doing...here are the core components. Recently we have been working with Michael and integration. They have been working on opensource. 13:45 – Michael: It was one of the first apps in Beta and Vue. It all started out as a passionate project for the opensource initiative. We wanted to build something new and use the emerging Vue.js. At the time I had no idea. It sounded cool, though, and at the time I wrote a small CUI program. I decided to make an app out of that. I wanted to meet the clients’ needs and the new tech. I went online and I saw some tutorials and I thought they had figured it out. I thought we were screwed but I guess not. Most of the things are out of the box. But the problem is that the routing was sketchy and it wouldn’t update the URL and it had to be delegated to the framework. The app is called BEEP. I cannot disclose what it means. Joking. I added to the state that everything... I tore through the screen to figure out how it works. Then it clicked. You have to extend the Vue’s official router...and then you’re done. You do a MPM install and then you call a couple of APIs and then you are done. Not even a single line of code. You have Ionic’s out of the box animations, and in our app we have a dancing... You spend a week and you’re done so I won’t use anything else. 17:35 – Panel: That’s an impressive turnaround! 17:42 – Panel: It just goes to show you that the code in Vue is so approachable to anyone. If you know a little bit of JavaScript then you know what is kind of going on. It’s pretty clean. Especially the Vue Router. 18:11 – Panel: Vue Core – some parts that can be hairy. 18:43 – We are component authors. We just need to know here is a component and here are some methods that it needs to know. 19:04 – Oh yeah, totally – I was talking more about... 19:14 – That’s what I thought for those 2 weeks cause I was looking at... 19:24 – Chuck: How do you get the Vue stuff in that and not the Angular? 19:41 – Guest answers the question. 20:20 – Panel: What was the hardest part to integrate? 20:28 – Michael: I wrote my own router. It was too much for me to write. I thought it was going to take me ages. So it took the longest to come to the idea to extending Vue’s router. I thought writing less code is the best. It took me 2 weeks to come to that conclusion. It was related to how... 22:21 – Question. 22:28 – Michael: You can use Vue router like if you used a different package. 22:40 – Panel: It is using the other router history or if you are using Hash API; since it’s all web technology? 23:03 – Guest: People don’t see the URL. 23:10 – We can teach them to pass... 23:25 – Panel: I have been interested in Ionic...when you sprinkle in some native stuff. Local databases. Getting that wasn’t too bad to work. The trick was testing that. 24:04 – Guest: A lot of manual work, unfortunately. It’s a lot of set-up work. You can do test functions but actually have that end-to-end test...can I make sure that is working correctly? A lot of manual testing. There are some cloud base platforms but I haven’t checked them out for an easier way. 25:06 – It was an Ionic issue it was... I think some of the Cloud services to better nowadays. 25:25 – Guest: It was painful to get it setup. Why do I need Clouds? 25:42 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 26:19 – Let’s talk about native features. How does one do that in Vue? 26:29 – Guest talks about Vue, Capacitor, and Cordova. 27:27 – Guest: Let’s talk back to the Beep app. Lots of this stuff is really easy, as Mike was saying. That’s what I like to do – being a both a developer and a library writer. 28:00 – Panel: Imagine Slash from Guns and Roses. 28:14 – Chuck: They get this idea that it’s Java so I can share. Chuck asks a question. 28:30 – Guest: All of it. You might want to change some of the UIs. If it looks good on mobile then you can adapt that as the main app and swap that out for the traditional designs and something else. 29:03 – Panel: I can’t just drop in the same dibs for my styles on my desktop and magically look like a mobile app. 29:23 – Guest: That’s where you are wrong. Ionic does this really well. We have painstakingly made this be a thing. The guest talks about screen width, layouts, and other topics. 30:10 – Guest: It’s the same code. 30:18 – Panelist gives a hypothetical situation for the guests. 30:36 – Guest answers the question. Guest: You will have to refactor from desktop to mobile. 31:54 – Chuck. 32:10 – Michael: It’s about continuity. 32:39 – Panel: Building a Vue app we can use the Ionic Vue project to reuse that work that you did to get that back button working. 32:59 – Michael: That’s the whole point. So you guys don’t even have to think about it. So you don’t have to fiddle around with bugs. 33:17 – Panelist. 33:22 – Michael. 33:33 – Mike: Eventually we want to do a full fledge Vue project they just install Ionic Vue and it will integrate the package. 33:55 – Michael: You use the UPI and that’s it. 34:03 – Panel: Beyond the hardcore 3D sky room games are there any other reasons why I wouldn’t want to use Ionic? 34:30 – Mike: I can’t think of anything. More important question is what is your team’s experience? I wouldn’t go to a bunch of C+ devs and say: Here ya go! I wouldn’t do that. You have to figure out the team that knows Java and they don’t know native, so they will be able to reuse those skills. 35:25 – Panel: I am wondering if there is anything technically impossible because of the way Ionic works? 36:00 – Guest: If there are, I haven’t seen it, yet. There are 20,000,000 downloads so far, so I don’t think so. 36:28 – Panel: When people report an issue what do they complain about? 36:39 – Guest: Being a couple pixels off (CSS), API signatures, etc. We are seeing fewer issues on the... People are looking at functionality issues. Whenever there are issues we take care of it right away. 37:26 – Panelist asks a question. 37:32 – It’s really done well. 37:46 – Panel: Are people able to drop that into an Ionic app? 38:09 – Guest: I haven’t tried that, yet. 38:20 – Panel: I have another question: How big are Ionic apps compared to other native apps. When you are using C+ or writing in Java or Swift. 39:09 – Guest: Twitter native was a couple 100 MB app. But the apps built with Ionic are 50 MB category. They can be small or full native apps with plugins. 40:00 – Panel: Does that mean that in some cases users will have to be connected to the Internet to use the app? 40:29 – Guest answers. 41:02 – Guest: I have some good news for you all. (Guest goes into detail.) 41:39 – Chuck. 41:44 – Guest: Another comparison is my app I use for my Home Goods store is 80 MB and it’s not doing a whole lot. 42:21 – Chuck: Let’s talk data for a minute. You can get large that way if you are DL files through the app – how do you manage memory? 42:42 – Guest: That is run by the browser run-time. Sometimes too good of a job. When you are doing production cases your... 43:27 – Panel: Do you have access to Sequel Light or do you have to use in-browser storage? 43:27 – Guest: Either one. 44:16 – Sequel Light. 44:20 – Guest. 44:24 – Within Ionic you can use Sequel Light there is a plugin. 44:55 – Panelist comments. 45:23 – Michael: I want to add some clarification. You can write your own propriety files... 45:23 – I like that it sounds like it’s different than other frameworks. Instead of there being a framework way to do it there is a lot of different pieces you can plugin to different parts that is agnostic to Ionic. 46:10 – Guest talks about batteries included. 46:42 – Panel: I really like that b/c it’s the Vue approach, too. 47:21 – The guest talks about transitions. 48:07 – Chuck: If I get stuck what is the community around it? 48:25 – Guest: It’s still early right now. If you went to the code base you wouldn’t see much. We are working on the code getting into the package. The good thing is that the way it’s structure, once their APIs are set then it’s the same through Angular and Vue. Once you have that API set it’s the same thing between those 3 things. 49:13 – Guest: Let me blow your minds guys... There are 7 controllers and 99% you would go to the Ionic site. The rest is identical and that’s the cool part. If you are coming from Angular you can reuse a lot of that knowledge. 50:00 – Panel: If they wanted to build an app right now what would you recommend as their first step? 50:16 – Guest: Ionic and Vue – check out the docs and the components overviews to see what the vanilla components are like. 50:52 – Panel: Is there an example repo? 50:59 – Guest: That would be the BEEP app. 51:08 – Panel: Vue specific docs? 51:18 – Guest: Files that you can drop into your browser. 51:27 – Panel: How soon is soon? 51:31 – Guest: Most likely within the next few months. Final touches that we want to complete. 52:11 – Chuck: What about testing? 52:17 – Guest: Same way you would test a Vue app there is nothing specific for Ionic (at least for the unit tests). If you are doing integration tests that would work the same way in typical Vue setup the only quirks are... 52:56 – Question: Does Ionic offer a collection of mocks for APIs? 53:11 – Guest: Yes, but just for Angular. It’s the only framework to support. This is a good call for community members to contribute. 53:35 – Panel: Would that be a new repo for Vue? 53:44 – Guest: Contribute to the Ionic Teams’ Main Repository and open an issue – and Ping me. 54:02 – Twitter names are given. 54:13 – Panel: How do they reach you? 54:19 – Michael: My whole name slurred together. 54:39 – Panel: Anything else they should know? 54:46 – Guest: Ping us and we will get you working with Ionic. 54:54 – Guest: The cookbook examples are a good starting part. We work very hard with Ionic. 56:01 – Panel: If they have questions where should they post them – chat, or form? 56:20 – Guest: Yes, ask away – any questions. 56:41 – Panel: How do you make money? 57:00 – Guest: If you want to build the Android portion, but you don’t want to take the time, we have a hosted platform that will handle that for you. Help you create your build so you don’t have to create all of the native stuff. 57:29 – Picks! 57:35 – Chuck: I have more stuff to play with – dang it! I am happy to outsource to you, Chris! 58:00 – Sarcasm. 58:26 – Chuck: Thank you for sharing your stories, Michael and Mike! 58:38 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Ionic – Vue Ionic Star Track Onsen UI Beep Have I been Pawned? Michael T.’s LinkedIn Mike H.’s Twitter Michael T.’s Twitter Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Picks: John NMP Library – DoteNV The 12 Factor App Divya Post by Sara S. Headspace – daily meditation Chris Library called CUID Library – MapBox Netflix – The Originals Chuck Friends of Scouting – good cause to give money Michael AIRBNB Lottie Steam Support Mike Blog Post – GitHub Integration Infinity War Joe Movie Peppermint Burn After Reading Goodbye Redux

Panel: Charles Max Wood Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Joe Eames John Papa Special Guest: Mike Hartington and Michael Tintiuc In this episode, the panel talks with Mike and Michael who are developers of Ionic. The panel and the guests talk about the ins-and-outs of the framework and talk about the pros and cons, too. Listen to today’s episode to hear how they discuss how Ionic is compatible with Vue and Angular. Finally, they talk about various topics, such as Cordova and Capacitor. Show Topics: 1:19 – Mike H. gives his background. He uses JavaScript every day. 1:30 – Michael T. gives his background. 1:53 – Chuck: Yes, today we are talking about Ionic. Why are we talking about that on a Vue Podcast? 2:08 – Let’s talk about what Ionic is first? 2:16 – Guest gives us the definition / background of what IONIC is. 2:32 – Guest: We have been tied to Angular (back in the day), which were Ember and jQuery bindings. We have come a far way. (He talks about web components.) Guest: We spent a year diving into web components and interweaving that with Angular. Now we are exploring other framework options. Now we are looking at Ionic with Vue. 3:34 – Chuck: I have played with Ionic, and it’s fairly to use. It’s exciting to see it come this way. I’m curious what does that look like b/c Angular and Vue aren’t the same. 4:10 – Guest explains and answers Chuck’s question. 4:50 – Chuck: Is it like using...under the hood? 4:58 – Guest: No. (He goes into detail.) 5:08 – I didn’t know that Stencil was built by that team. 5:19 – Guest: We built a 2nd project. 5:28 – Guest: There are 24 hours in a day. 5:39 – Panel: How is Ionic different than other options? 5:59 – Guest: It’s comparable to Frameworks 7. The components that you generate are all web0based. The component that you put in is the same for the web or Android. You can have 100% code reuse. 6:35 – Panel: It’s actual CSS? 6:41 – Guest: It’s full-blown CSS. If you wanted to do CSS animations then whatever the browser can support. 6:56 – Panel: Advantages or disadvantages? 7:04 – Guest: It’s easier to maintain. If you are making the next Photo Shop...(super heavy graphics) maybe web and web APIs aren’t the right way to go. 8:23 – You have access to less intense stuff? 8:34 – Guest: Yes. 8:39 – Question. 8:46 – Guest: 2 different approaches to this. 1 approach is CORDOVA and the other is CAPACITOR. 9:42 – Anything that has been built with Ionic? 9:47 – Guest: App called Untapped? Or the fitness app, SWORKIT! MarketWatch is another one. We have a whole showcase page that you can check out. 10:57 – Few apps out there that use Ionic for everything. 11:06 – Panel: I have done work with Ionic in the past. I found a sweet spot for business apps. There are things behind enterprise walls that customers can use but necessarily others. We have decided to go native and found that Ionic wasn’t a good fit. How do you feel? 11:51 – Guest: We do hear that a lot. People want to make a quick app and then... 12:20 – Panel: We chose Ionic in this project b/c we had to get it out in less than 6 weeks and the team knew JavaScript. Nobody knew Ionic besides me. After that, nothing broke and that’s a huge praise. 12:55 – Guest: I will take that good praise. 13:01 – Panel: How is it used with Vue? 13:07 – Guest: The Vue work that we’ve been doing...here are the core components. Recently we have been working with Michael and integration. They have been working on opensource. 13:45 – Michael: It was one of the first apps in Beta and Vue. It all started out as a passionate project for the opensource initiative. We wanted to build something new and use the emerging Vue.js. At the time I had no idea. It sounded cool, though, and at the time I wrote a small CUI program. I decided to make an app out of that. I wanted to meet the clients’ needs and the new tech. I went online and I saw some tutorials and I thought they had figured it out. I thought we were screwed but I guess not. Most of the things are out of the box. But the problem is that the routing was sketchy and it wouldn’t update the URL and it had to be delegated to the framework. The app is called BEEP. I cannot disclose what it means. Joking. I added to the state that everything... I tore through the screen to figure out how it works. Then it clicked. You have to extend the Vue’s official router...and then you’re done. You do a MPM install and then you call a couple of APIs and then you are done. Not even a single line of code. You have Ionic’s out of the box animations, and in our app we have a dancing... You spend a week and you’re done so I won’t use anything else. 17:35 – Panel: That’s an impressive turnaround! 17:42 – Panel: It just goes to show you that the code in Vue is so approachable to anyone. If you know a little bit of JavaScript then you know what is kind of going on. It’s pretty clean. Especially the Vue Router. 18:11 – Panel: Vue Core – some parts that can be hairy. 18:43 – We are component authors. We just need to know here is a component and here are some methods that it needs to know. 19:04 – Oh yeah, totally – I was talking more about... 19:14 – That’s what I thought for those 2 weeks cause I was looking at... 19:24 – Chuck: How do you get the Vue stuff in that and not the Angular? 19:41 – Guest answers the question. 20:20 – Panel: What was the hardest part to integrate? 20:28 – Michael: I wrote my own router. It was too much for me to write. I thought it was going to take me ages. So it took the longest to come to the idea to extending Vue’s router. I thought writing less code is the best. It took me 2 weeks to come to that conclusion. It was related to how... 22:21 – Question. 22:28 – Michael: You can use Vue router like if you used a different package. 22:40 – Panel: It is using the other router history or if you are using Hash API; since it’s all web technology? 23:03 – Guest: People don’t see the URL. 23:10 – We can teach them to pass... 23:25 – Panel: I have been interested in Ionic...when you sprinkle in some native stuff. Local databases. Getting that wasn’t too bad to work. The trick was testing that. 24:04 – Guest: A lot of manual work, unfortunately. It’s a lot of set-up work. You can do test functions but actually have that end-to-end test...can I make sure that is working correctly? A lot of manual testing. There are some cloud base platforms but I haven’t checked them out for an easier way. 25:06 – It was an Ionic issue it was... I think some of the Cloud services to better nowadays. 25:25 – Guest: It was painful to get it setup. Why do I need Clouds? 25:42 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 26:19 – Let’s talk about native features. How does one do that in Vue? 26:29 – Guest talks about Vue, Capacitor, and Cordova. 27:27 – Guest: Let’s talk back to the Beep app. Lots of this stuff is really easy, as Mike was saying. That’s what I like to do – being a both a developer and a library writer. 28:00 – Panel: Imagine Slash from Guns and Roses. 28:14 – Chuck: They get this idea that it’s Java so I can share. Chuck asks a question. 28:30 – Guest: All of it. You might want to change some of the UIs. If it looks good on mobile then you can adapt that as the main app and swap that out for the traditional designs and something else. 29:03 – Panel: I can’t just drop in the same dibs for my styles on my desktop and magically look like a mobile app. 29:23 – Guest: That’s where you are wrong. Ionic does this really well. We have painstakingly made this be a thing. The guest talks about screen width, layouts, and other topics. 30:10 – Guest: It’s the same code. 30:18 – Panelist gives a hypothetical situation for the guests. 30:36 – Guest answers the question. Guest: You will have to refactor from desktop to mobile. 31:54 – Chuck. 32:10 – Michael: It’s about continuity. 32:39 – Panel: Building a Vue app we can use the Ionic Vue project to reuse that work that you did to get that back button working. 32:59 – Michael: That’s the whole point. So you guys don’t even have to think about it. So you don’t have to fiddle around with bugs. 33:17 – Panelist. 33:22 – Michael. 33:33 – Mike: Eventually we want to do a full fledge Vue project they just install Ionic Vue and it will integrate the package. 33:55 – Michael: You use the UPI and that’s it. 34:03 – Panel: Beyond the hardcore 3D sky room games are there any other reasons why I wouldn’t want to use Ionic? 34:30 – Mike: I can’t think of anything. More important question is what is your team’s experience? I wouldn’t go to a bunch of C+ devs and say: Here ya go! I wouldn’t do that. You have to figure out the team that knows Java and they don’t know native, so they will be able to reuse those skills. 35:25 – Panel: I am wondering if there is anything technically impossible because of the way Ionic works? 36:00 – Guest: If there are, I haven’t seen it, yet. There are 20,000,000 downloads so far, so I don’t think so. 36:28 – Panel: When people report an issue what do they complain about? 36:39 – Guest: Being a couple pixels off (CSS), API signatures, etc. We are seeing fewer issues on the... People are looking at functionality issues. Whenever there are issues we take care of it right away. 37:26 – Panelist asks a question. 37:32 – It’s really done well. 37:46 – Panel: Are people able to drop that into an Ionic app? 38:09 – Guest: I haven’t tried that, yet. 38:20 – Panel: I have another question: How big are Ionic apps compared to other native apps. When you are using C+ or writing in Java or Swift. 39:09 – Guest: Twitter native was a couple 100 MB app. But the apps built with Ionic are 50 MB category. They can be small or full native apps with plugins. 40:00 – Panel: Does that mean that in some cases users will have to be connected to the Internet to use the app? 40:29 – Guest answers. 41:02 – Guest: I have some good news for you all. (Guest goes into detail.) 41:39 – Chuck. 41:44 – Guest: Another comparison is my app I use for my Home Goods store is 80 MB and it’s not doing a whole lot. 42:21 – Chuck: Let’s talk data for a minute. You can get large that way if you are DL files through the app – how do you manage memory? 42:42 – Guest: That is run by the browser run-time. Sometimes too good of a job. When you are doing production cases your... 43:27 – Panel: Do you have access to Sequel Light or do you have to use in-browser storage? 43:27 – Guest: Either one. 44:16 – Sequel Light. 44:20 – Guest. 44:24 – Within Ionic you can use Sequel Light there is a plugin. 44:55 – Panelist comments. 45:23 – Michael: I want to add some clarification. You can write your own propriety files... 45:23 – I like that it sounds like it’s different than other frameworks. Instead of there being a framework way to do it there is a lot of different pieces you can plugin to different parts that is agnostic to Ionic. 46:10 – Guest talks about batteries included. 46:42 – Panel: I really like that b/c it’s the Vue approach, too. 47:21 – The guest talks about transitions. 48:07 – Chuck: If I get stuck what is the community around it? 48:25 – Guest: It’s still early right now. If you went to the code base you wouldn’t see much. We are working on the code getting into the package. The good thing is that the way it’s structure, once their APIs are set then it’s the same through Angular and Vue. Once you have that API set it’s the same thing between those 3 things. 49:13 – Guest: Let me blow your minds guys... There are 7 controllers and 99% you would go to the Ionic site. The rest is identical and that’s the cool part. If you are coming from Angular you can reuse a lot of that knowledge. 50:00 – Panel: If they wanted to build an app right now what would you recommend as their first step? 50:16 – Guest: Ionic and Vue – check out the docs and the components overviews to see what the vanilla components are like. 50:52 – Panel: Is there an example repo? 50:59 – Guest: That would be the BEEP app. 51:08 – Panel: Vue specific docs? 51:18 – Guest: Files that you can drop into your browser. 51:27 – Panel: How soon is soon? 51:31 – Guest: Most likely within the next few months. Final touches that we want to complete. 52:11 – Chuck: What about testing? 52:17 – Guest: Same way you would test a Vue app there is nothing specific for Ionic (at least for the unit tests). If you are doing integration tests that would work the same way in typical Vue setup the only quirks are... 52:56 – Question: Does Ionic offer a collection of mocks for APIs? 53:11 – Guest: Yes, but just for Angular. It’s the only framework to support. This is a good call for community members to contribute. 53:35 – Panel: Would that be a new repo for Vue? 53:44 – Guest: Contribute to the Ionic Teams’ Main Repository and open an issue – and Ping me. 54:02 – Twitter names are given. 54:13 – Panel: How do they reach you? 54:19 – Michael: My whole name slurred together. 54:39 – Panel: Anything else they should know? 54:46 – Guest: Ping us and we will get you working with Ionic. 54:54 – Guest: The cookbook examples are a good starting part. We work very hard with Ionic. 56:01 – Panel: If they have questions where should they post them – chat, or form? 56:20 – Guest: Yes, ask away – any questions. 56:41 – Panel: How do you make money? 57:00 – Guest: If you want to build the Android portion, but you don’t want to take the time, we have a hosted platform that will handle that for you. Help you create your build so you don’t have to create all of the native stuff. 57:29 – Picks! 57:35 – Chuck: I have more stuff to play with – dang it! I am happy to outsource to you, Chris! 58:00 – Sarcasm. 58:26 – Chuck: Thank you for sharing your stories, Michael and Mike! 58:38 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Ionic – Vue Ionic Star Track Onsen UI Beep Have I been Pawned? Michael T.’s LinkedIn Mike H.’s Twitter Michael T.’s Twitter Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Picks: John NMP Library – DoteNV The 12 Factor App Divya Post by Sara S. Headspace – daily meditation Chris Library called CUID Library – MapBox Netflix – The Originals Chuck Friends of Scouting – good cause to give money Michael AIRBNB Lottie Steam Support Mike Blog Post – GitHub Integration Infinity War Joe Movie Peppermint Burn After Reading Goodbye Redux