Podcasts about react conf

Join Amy and Brad as they break down the latest developments in the React ecosystem following React Conf 2024. From quality-of-life improvements in React 19 to the introduction of the new React compiler, they analyze how these changes will impact everyday development. The episode features an in-depth discussion about Remix's strategic decision to focus on React Router, the ongoing debate between JavaScript frameworks and traditional backend frameworks, and thoughtful insights into choosing the right tools for your projects. Whether you're a seasoned React developer or just getting started, this episode offers valuable perspective on the future of web development.SponsorsSanity delivers content anywhere (just like a headless CMS).Beyond that, Sanity gives you total composability. A fully decoupled, real-time content back end. Entirely customizable content workspaces.Chapters00:00 - Introduction00:42 - Sponsor: Sanity02:12 - React Conf Experience05:00 - Conference Personalities08:52 - React Compiler Deep Dive13:20 - Remix "Taking a Nap" Discussion26:41 - React 19 Features33:54 - JavaScript vs PHP/Laravel Debate41:11 - Framework Decision Fatigue44:45 - Picks & Plugs

Google is making headline news once again as it reverses course on a decision to block third-party cookies in its Chrome browser. After years of testing, planning, and delays, Google scrapped a plan to turn off third-party cookie tracking by default like Safari and Firefox already do.In other news, the annual CSS Working Group meeting wrapped up recently, and some of the exciting features the group will be focusing on this year include: the if() statement for conditional styling, cross document view transitions without the need for a JavaScript library, and (perhaps the most anticipated feature) cleaner, easier CSS anchor positioning. Vercel introduces feature flags in Next.js and SvelteKit with Vercel's Flags SDK. The Flags SDK works with any feature flag provider, and sits between the application and the source of the flags to help devs follow best practices for using feature flags, while keeping websites fast.And finally, Reddit has doubled down on blocking search engine crawlers from surfacing new posts and comments in recent weeks, and as of now, Google is the only mainstream search engine that's made a deal that will allow it to index new search results when users search for posts on Reddit.News:Paige - Exciting new CSS features coming out of this year's CSSWG meetingJack - Feature Flag Support from VercelTJ - Chrome's is no longer removing third-party cookiesBonus News:Reddit is now blocking all non-Google search engines and AI botsAll the video talks from React Conf 2024 are availableWhat Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - Apple Watch SEJack - 3D printing (Autodesk Fusion 360 program)TJ - 2024 Paris OlympicsThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or Tweet us on X @front_end_fire.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fire

Evan Bacon joins to the pod to talk about the latest advancements in React Native and the Expo Router. He discusses React Server Components, state management, and the new features coming in Expo SDK 52. Links https://evanbacon.dev https://github.com/EvanBacon https://x.com/Baconbrix We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Evan Bacon.

Join Sathya Gunasekaran and Joe Savona from the React Team as they discuss latest advancements, challenges, and future plans for the React Compiler, an innovative tool designed to simplify and optimize development workflows. Links https://www.linkedin.com/in/sathyagunasekaran https://www.recompiled.dev https://x.com/_gsathya https://github.com/gsathya https://react.dev/learn/react-compiler We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guests: Joe Savona and Sathya Gunasekaran.

Welcome to the 38th episode of The React Native Show Podcast recorded at React Conf 2024 in Henderson, Nevada. Tune in to the interviews with:

Обсуждали: 1. What's new in React https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=vDxWeFugiHAMQ0aR&t=8881 2. React Unpacked: A Roadmap to React 19 https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=ZL1n9xrCMZDDYcjJ&t=10112 3. Keynote https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=efqthb1UiBwqn61D&t=1789 4. Real-time server components https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=dzFNSr7_G24P9VRF&t=24069 5. Forget About Memo https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=MmAArJWg7xr4cvUf&t=12020 6. React Compiler Deep Dive https://www.youtube.com/live/0ckOUBiuxVY?si=5QmQKvdd1ScGcIgf&t=9313 7. Vanilla React https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=E1wnHdVXVMIdBAl-&t=5543 8. React for Two Computers https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=vgE5Mh2kMa_hOgVB&t=18826 9. Introducing Universal React Server Components in Expo Router https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=ZNAvnvXkobYPRbA3&t=20766 10. Solve 100% of your errors https://www.youtube.com/live/0ckOUBiuxVY?si=OXUXi-xTbRsZmmOv&t=19797 11. Let's break React's rules https://www.youtube.com/live/T8TZQ6k4SLE?si=xSKruGh_rBr6ZXXV 12. And Now You Understand React Server Components https://www.youtube.com/live/0ckOUBiuxVY?si=ksjMcCsg7eC_ltro&t=11217 13. Cross Platform React https://www.youtube.com/live/0ckOUBiuxVY?si=JXjgCCE9MtYEae-o&t=26598 14. Extending React Native Beyond Mobile & Desktop Apps https://www.youtube.com/live/0ckOUBiuxVY?si=PDGakJmczFd-n3km&t=5656 Нас можно найти: 1. Telegram: https://t.me/proConf 2. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/proconf 3. SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/proconf 4. Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/by/podcast/podcast-proconf/id1455023466 5. Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/77BSWwGavfnMKGIg5TDnLz

We've got an exciting episode with our co-host Jack Herrington fresh from his trip to React Conf where the React core team and close collaborators unveiled all the cool things they've been working on, including the much anticipated React Compiler and some exciting new features for React Native Expo.React Compiler is a new Babel-enabled plugin that will allow React apps to handle the memoization and re-rendering of components in an application so that developers won't have to use the useMemo() and useCallback() hooks themselves. It will essentially save devs from having to think about it (and save them from the foot guns of implementing it incorrectly), and it is completely optional (not built in to React 19) and can be done via incremental adoption across an already existing application.In related news, Vercel (the creators of Next.js, the most popular React framework in the world) announced they had raised $250m in funding, and the company is currently valued at $3.25b. Just wow! While we can only assume some of that funding will go towards continuing to improve Next.js and their core business of web hosting, they also said they'll continue to invest heavily in their v0 generative UI system, which currently generates copy-and-paste friendly React code using shadcn/ui and Tailwind CSS that people can use in their projects.Another popular JavaScript framework, Astro, made a splash as well with its release of Astro 4.8. In addition to the usual performance enhancements and bug fixes, it added experimental support for Astro Actions with niceties like full type-safety, a single global action file that any client component can access, automatically parsing form request objects using a Zod schema, and progressive enhancement on forms.Finally, the news wraps up with some new features that came out in the Safari 17.5 release.News:Paige - Astro Actions in v4.8Jack - React Compiler, React Compiler Playground, Jack's in-depth video of React CompilerTJ - Vercel raises $250m; valued at $3.25bBonus News:TJ - Safari 17.5What Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - Parks and Recreation TV seriesJack - How to ADHD bookTJ - NYT gamesThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or Tweet us on X @front_end_fire.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fire

Tune in to the special episode, in which Łukasz Chludziński is joined by Eli White and Matt Carroll from Meta to discuss the eagerly anticipated React Conf 2024. To attend, register for the ticket lottery before Feb 28

When was the last time you got frustrated writing code? How about sad? What if I told you learning how to recognize and harness your emotions would make you a better engineer and a better coworker? Today on the show we explore the journey of a Senior Software Engineer, how emotions make us better developers not worse, things you should do to be a better teammate, a peak into life at Netflix and more. Our guest, Jenn Creighton, has worked at companies like ClassPass, Apollo GraphQL and has been a guest on the React Podcast, has spoken at many conferences including React JS Girls: the Conference, React Conf, and JS Conf Mexico. She is also a co-organizer for useReact NYC. Currently she is a Senior Software Engineer at Netflix working in the developer productivity org, host of her own podcast - single threaded, and truly a positive force in the tech community. Jenn will be giving her Debugging in JS talk IN PERSON at React Miami April 18-19 and Reactathon in May - Don't Miss It!! Connect with Jenn: Twitter LinkedIn Dev.to page More Jenn: Single Threaded Podcast “Your emotions are not an anti-pattern” - JS Conf Mexico talk Mini course on React architecture including flexibility, composition and principles Jenn's journey into code via blog post Show notes and helpful resources: Emotional First Aid Kit by Guy Winch Recurse Center social rules useReact.NYC React Miami - April 18-19, 2022 Reactathon In The Park, Berkley CA- May 3-5, 2022 Netflix Job culture “No rules rules - Netflix and the culture of reinvention” by the Erin Meyer and Reed Hastings CEO of Netflix Building something cool or solving interesting problems? Want to be on this show? Send me an email at jointhepodcast@unfilteredbuild.com Podcast produced by Unfiltered Build - dream.design.develop.

Доклады: React 18 Keynote ( https://youtu.be/FZ0cG47msEk ) Streaming Server Rendering with Suspense ( https://youtu.be/pj5N-Khihgc ) The first React Working Group ( https://youtu.be/qn7gRClrC9U ) React Native Desktop ( https://youtu.be/9L4FFrvwJwY ) React 18 for External Store Libraries ( https://youtu.be/oPfSC5bQPR8 ) React 18 for app developers ( https://youtu.be/ytudH8je5ko ) Interactive playgrounds with React ( https://youtu.be/zL8cz2W0z34 ) Hydrogen + React 18 ( https://youtu.be/HS6vIYkSNks ) Re-introducing Relay ( https://youtu.be/lhVGdErZuN4 ) React Developer Tooling ( https://youtu.be/oxDfrke8rZg ) Things I learnt from the new React docs ( https://youtu.be/-7odLW_hG7s ) UI Tools for artists ( https://youtu.be/b3l4WxipFsE ) Building accessible components with React 18 ( https://youtu.be/dcm8fjBfro8 ) Нас можно найти: 1. Telegram: https://t.me/proConf 2. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/proconf 3. SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/proconf 4. Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/by/podcast/podcast-proconf/id1455023466

Добрый день уважаемые слушатели. Представляем новый выпуск подкаста RWpod. В этом выпуске: Ruby Rails 7.0: Fulfilling a vision PostgreSQL generated columns in Rails Authenticate By for preventing timing-based enum attacks Creating and testing gRPC server interceptors in Ruby 4 tips on how to make more out of Sidekiq Rails.new - from New Mac to Rails Development in 11 Minutes Extralite - a new Ruby gem for working with SQLite databases Cable-shared-worker (CableSW) - ActionCable and AnyCable Shared Worker support How to use Kredis with Rails (video) Web HTTP/3 is Fast React Conf 2021 Recap Array.prototype.groupBy to the rescue! Topological sort Deep-copying in JavaScript using structuredClone Patterns.dev - a free book on design patterns Caterwaul - an JavaScript-to-JavaScript Compiler

If you’ve tried using SVGs in your application, chances are you’ve found it tricky or difficult. In today’s show, Elizabet Oliviera shares some tips on how you can begin using SVGs to create scalable illustrations and animations. She also shares her experiences of building a library of SVG animations Panel Carl Mungazi Paige Neidringhaus TJ VanToll Guest Elizabet Oliveira Sponsors G2i | Enjoy the luxuries of freelancing "The MaxCoders Guide to Finding Your Dream Developer Job" by Charles Max Wood is now available on Amazon. Get Your Copy Today! Links Figma gregberge/svgr svg/svgo: Node.js tool for optimizing SVG files Exploring audio with React and SVGs: Create amazing audio projects - Elizabet Oliveira React Kawaii Picks Elizabet Oliveira: Follow Elizabet on Twitter > @miuki_miu, Github, LinkedIn Women of React Conf Paige Neidringhaus: Coolors - The super fast color schemes generator! Carl Mungazi: Excalidraw TJ VanToll: Tiger King Follow React Round Up on Twitter > @reactroundup

If you’ve tried using SVGs in your application, chances are you’ve found it tricky or difficult. In today’s show, Elizabet Oliviera shares some tips on how you can begin using SVGs to create scalable illustrations and animations. She also shares her experiences of building a library of SVG animations Panel Carl Mungazi Paige Neidringhaus TJ VanToll Guest Elizabet Oliveira Sponsors G2i | Enjoy the luxuries of freelancing "The MaxCoders Guide to Finding Your Dream Developer Job" by Charles Max Wood is now available on Amazon. Get Your Copy Today! Links Figma gregberge/svgr svg/svgo: Node.js tool for optimizing SVG files Exploring audio with React and SVGs: Create amazing audio projects - Elizabet Oliveira React Kawaii Picks Elizabet Oliveira: Follow Elizabet on Twitter > @miuki_miu, Github, LinkedIn Women of React Conf Paige Neidringhaus: Coolors - The super fast color schemes generator! Carl Mungazi: Excalidraw TJ VanToll: Tiger King Follow React Round Up on Twitter > @reactroundup

Quick show notes Our Guest: Jenn Creighton What she'd like for you to see: Her Twitter feed | React Day NYC | Thinkster React Component Course (coming soon) | useReactNYC Her JAMstack Jams: Gatsby | Netlify Her musical Jam: Halsey's You Should Be Sad Our sponsor this week: TakeShape Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:04 Welcome, welcome everyone to a new episode of that's my JAMstack the podcast where we explore the deepest parts of the developer psyche by asking, what's your jam in the JAMstack. On today's episode we're chatting with Jenn Creighton, Jenn is a conference speaker and the organizer of useReact NYC. She's also the front end architect for The Wing. Bryan Robinson 0:23 Also, this week, we have our amazing sponsor TakeShape. Find out more about their JAMstack content platforms stick around after the episode or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack. Bryan Robinson 0:36 All right. Well, thanks for joining us on the podcast today, Jenn. Jenn Creighton 0:38 Thank you for having me. Bryan Robinson 0:40 Thanks. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun, that sort of thing? Jenn Creighton 0:45 Sure. So I am a front end architect at a company called The Wing. We work on building out co working spaces that are really geared towards women. So we're thinking a lot about what women need in those spaces, and also there's a lot of networking events and things like that in our spaces. Jenn Creighton 1:03 So I'm the front end architect there, I lead all of front end. I help ensure our system stays healthy. I work on our technical decisions there. You can already tell I'm a lot of fun because I really love tech. And honestly, like what I do for fun, I'm usually at a conference. I'm usually speaking at a conference, I really, really enjoy giving technical talks. So you will find that I'm often at a conference, I travel a lot to do that. I did 14 conferences last year, which I won't be repeating but it was a lot of fun. I had a good time. And if I'm genuinely not doing any tech related things, I am probably with my cats or my puppy or I am sewing. I really enjoy sewing. Bryan Robinson 1:53 So I saw and I think this is on like your Noti.st profile, is your dog's name really Sailor Moon because that's amazing Jenn Creighton 2:00 Her name IS Sailor Moon. She is named after the you know, Sailor Guardian Sailor Moon and she's a little blonde dachsund and, and I grew up watching Sailor Moon. I loved that show. I would watch it so much. And when I was thinking of names for her, I really want something kind of fun. So I picked out that it's really great too, because when you tell people her name, you can tell if they watch the show or not. Because they're either That is amazing. Or they're Wow, that's a lot of a name. Bryan Robinson 2:35 I'll be honest, do you just call her Sailor Moon all the time. Jenn Creighton 2:39 We usually call her sailor or if she's being a bit sassy Miss moon. Bryan Robinson 2:43 That works that work. And any fun sewing projects that you're working on. Jenn Creighton 2:48 I actually haven't sold in a long time because of the mentioned 14 conferences. So actually did not so I think anything last year. No, that's not true. Wait, I took a sewing class in November as my like, you're gonna do it and I sewed a pair of pants for the first time I took a sewing class to like force myself into a non tech hobby, which is a good thing to do once in a while. Bryan Robinson 3:17 Yeah, especially 14 conferences in 12 months. How many how many months were filled with more than two conferences? Did you did you group together and how exhausting was that? Jenn Creighton 3:28 Some months were grouped together. Um, let's see, I think I know at least I did, in September, I did two. And I traveled really far for them. So I did JS Conf Korea, and Components Comf in Australia together. And I think I had some some weeks and breaks there but a couple of them were like, in the same month and so I would knock out like two or three in the same month and then have like a little bit of a break which usually Wasn't a break. Like between Components Conf and React Conf. I actually had to write my React Conf talk. Bryan Robinson 4:09 The glamour of being a conference speaker! Jenn Creighton 4:11 It's so not glamorous, it's so exhausting. And yet, we can like people who enjoy it can't stop doing it. I don't know if you remember this, but there was a survey that came out many many years ago that said that people are more afraid of public speaking than they are of death. And so conference speaking is actually like a near death experience. As you get like this ridiculous rush, you're terrified you feel great afterwards. You're like, I'll just do it again. Bryan Robinson 4:44 I just watched the the Imagineering story the the story of all like the Disney theme park building and all that. And it talks about all the all the rides and how the goal is to make people feel like they're about to die without getting them actually all the way to death. So it's the same basic principle just with public speaking. Jenn Creighton 5:01 I think that happens with code too, Like, I just spent two days solving this issue of my tests failing on circle ci when they weren't failing locally. And I wanted to die. I want to lay down and die. I was like, take me, Lord, now and then I figured it out. I felt great. Bryan Robinson 5:20 So this is a JAMstack podcast, let's talk about the JAMstack a little bit. What's been kind of your introduction into that world or into static sites or wherever you kind of came to it from? Jenn Creighton 5:30 I think with static sites, the first time I remember seeing like a static site generator was Jekyll. And this was back at a startup many, many years ago. I remember we used it for I believe our marketing site, which was like pretty typical. And I really didn't know that there would be static site generators. It was kind of surprising to me. But I also didn't really play with it because I was just trying to learn JavaScript. I was like, this is where I'm like, trying to figure things out. The actual JAMstack, you know, JavaScript API's and markup, my introduction to that has come a lot later than I think a lot of people I actually just started, I'd say late last year getting interested in the concept and starting to learn about it. We use it at work for our marketing website. And then personally, we've used it for a meetup that I run here in New York called useReactNYC. Bryan Robinson 6:28 What's sort of technology stack are you messing with right now? Jenn Creighton 6:32 So both of them are using Gatsby, but the marketing site is Gatsby plus Contentful. So that of course, our marketing people can make their own changes to the site, and we don't have to be, you know, nudged. "Hey Can you do a thing?" Bryan Robinson 6:48 "Please deploy, please, deploy!" Jenn Creighton 6:49 "Please make this change." So it gives them the freedom to do that without having to wait on us to make changes. It gives us the freedom not to think about the marketing site, very much. Then for useReactNYC, we wanted to create a website for the meetup so that people could learn more about us what we're about, and also join our community, both by attending the meetups, but also by joining our slack community, and also by helping us to build the site. And since we're a React meetup, it made a lot of sense that this would be a static site, and that we would make it with Gatsby. Bryan Robinson 7:27 Very nice. And any sort of ... Is there any sort of like API integration? Are you pulling in like meetup information from a third party? Or is it all just manual entry into into Gatsby? Jenn Creighton 7:37 Right now let's just manual entry. We definitely want to expand it at some point. We're just not sure that we have the time right now between the five organizers that there are, we actually took on another organizer this year to make five of us Yuraima joined us and we have just all been really stretched thin. So even with the fifth organizer, we're still like "huuu", but we're hopefully gonna start recording the meetup soon and hopefully we'll also host them there so that people can view the content. Bryan Robinson 8:08 Pretty cool. I definitely understand that. That meetup organizer life where you're like, hey, PRs are accepted, and then no one submits a PR. Jenn Creighton 8:16 Yeah, we did have a particular member of the community, Nick, who came in and helped us really do a lot of work on the site, when we were all stretched very thin. And my very good friend Melissa, helped us actually by creating the design of the site, and it's really beautiful. She did a wonderful job. She also designed our stickers. So really, like all community events, it is really like we wouldn't have done it without the community like helping us out. That's was important. Bryan Robinson 8:45 Cool. So uh, are you You said that the marketing site at The Wing is currently built on Gatsby. What other sorts of projects do you work on at The Wing other than obviously getting the word out about these kind of co-working spaces? Jenn Creighton 8:58 So what what I personally work on is that I work on our single page application. So Gatsby is for our marketing site. But we do have a single page application that is for our members. That's our members portal as well as an admin site for us to handle things like applications or members, information, adjusting settings for them, so on and so forth. But our members portal is where everything really happens for them, they're allowed to find other people in the community and chat with them. There are job postings on the site as well. And there are a lot of events at The Wing that are very specific to what our members want to hear and see. And so they can RSVP for those as well on the site, as well as just the general thing of like adjusting settings or registering guests. So I work on all of that and as we try to build out new features that are going to help our members connect more and forum like real in life connections are putting a lot of those in this single page application. Bryan Robinson 10:01 Very cool. And so just like -- I have a degree in philosophy, so I have to sometimes dive into philosophy on the podcast -- So where would you kind of consider kind of breakpoint, because you said, you know, I'm using the JAMstack for the marketing site. And for the meetup site, I've always kind of thought of any SPA as having JAMstack asked qualities. Where do you kind of draw that line? Like, what what's JAMstack versus non JAMstack for you. Jenn Creighton 10:28 So the reason that I qualified as a single page application instead of anything to do with the JAMstack, is because it's built using create react app. And so it actually has a server. So nothing's actually served by CDN, which I think is an important component of JAMstack sites, you know, they have to be served statically through CDN or some means of static. So they're not pre rendered. They're not static. It's it's an actual serving of just an index.html, and then we fill in the JavaScript for everything. Bryan Robinson 10:59 I gotcha. Cool. That's the the kind of fun thing about running this podcast is that I hear lots of opinions. And they literally run the full gamut of like, everything's the JAMstack to like, even smaller like subsets. And it's just yeah, it's awesome. Jenn Creighton 11:15 Yeah, I mean, and when you hear like that it's JavaScript API's and markup, you're like, well, how is this not every single page application? And that totally makes sense. Definitely. I think the JAMstack has some really specific qualities to it, though, that are very different from something built with like create react app that actually does have a server that you're not actually serving at statically. And you're relying on the JavaScript to do all the heavy lifting of creating all the page. It's not pre rendered. You know, we certainly don't have the ability for... One of the things I really like about the JAMstack is that it closes that gap for the user, right like they get the stuff immediately. And also how your deploys go. You know, you can roll them back and there get based. But you don't have that with the single page application. And sometimes I was wondering with that I was like, does this need to be anyway, I was like, but I'm not rewriting the whole thing. And that decision was made before I came into the company. And I was like, You know what, it's, it's fine. Bryan Robinson 12:22 And still React. So you still get to work on react. Jenn Creighton 12:25 Yeah, and I love I love react. So that like, is a joy for me. Bryan Robinson 12:29 And so is there anything that you've that you've been learning based on your work in Gatsby that you're bringing back into the the server side and the Create React App side of all that Jenn Creighton 12:41 Not specifically? I think Gatsby comes with a lot of wonderful things that are not even technically part of JAMstack, right. Like I would say I would say that there is a great amount of focus on accessibility and Gatsby I really, really appreciate that. And that is something we're really focused on at work. So like many startups, so our product team is really new at the way. And like many startups, the first version of our product was built externally by a third party. And so we're now as a product team, picking it up and sort of changing the architecture and making it more of a long term scalable application. And that includes taking a look at our accessibility and realizing that we're really far off the mark right now. And we need to do something about that. I really appreciate that Gatsby, in addition to using JAMstack is actually really like moving forward with accessibility and giving you a lot of information about that along the way. Bryan Robinson 13:46 Yeah. And the great thing for me is that there's so many people jumping on Gatsby right now, just in terms of like, it is like probably one of the hotness is in the JAMstack right now. And to have that their focus so that people who might not have learned about accessibility in the are getting those tips and tricks just by having that in their code base by default. I think that's amazing. Jenn Creighton 14:05 Yeah, exactly. And that's one of the things I really enjoy about that project. And that's one of the things like, as you're working on that, you get to learn that you can bring that to all your future projects. It's not specific to the JAMstack. It is all about the web. Bryan Robinson 14:19 Best platform there is... the web. Jenn Creighton 14:21 Yes. Bryan Robinson 14:22 Cool. So So would it be fair to say that in the JAMstack, the Gatsby is your jam? Are there any other technologies that you're really interested in right now? Jenn Creighton 14:30 I think Gatsby is the main one. Obviously, we're really enjoying also Netlify and being able to like push things out really easy. So we use Netlify also for our preview links at work which is really great. So just definitely enjoying that. But yeah, I think definitely Gatsby considering that I've used it at work and now in this useReactNYC project. Bryan Robinson 14:54 Nice and so work when when people are saving into contentful, are y'all deploying Preview deploys to send them links at same time. So like they can see it live on the site before they publish it. Jenn Creighton 15:06 I think so. Yeah. I forget because I haven't worked with it in a hot second and if anyone's changed behind my back, but yeah. Bryan Robinson 15:14 You never know. Jenn Creighton 15:15 Honestly, with a startup you never know. Bryan Robinson 15:18 It's so easy to deploy, right? Jenn Creighton 15:20 Things happen in a startup that I'm like, wait a minute, you're doing what now? Can we just Can we just grab five really quickly and make sure this is a good idea? All the time. Bryan Robinson 15:30 Okay, gotta move fast, right? Jenn Creighton 15:32 Yes. Move fast break. Things. Break. ... Both of us are like "arrrrgh no!" Bryan Robinson 15:39 Yeah. Don't Don't tell QA that you broke it. It's fine. Jenn Creighton 15:44 Yeah. Bryan Robinson 15:46 Cool. So let's, let's talk about actual musical jams. Then what are you listening to right now? It's in your headphones. What's going on there? Jenn Creighton 15:53 So my number one thing right now is Halsey. Which is strange. I didn't listen to her before, but I actually so I'm a big fan of Saturday Night Live. I love Saturday Night Live. And she hosted not that long ago. And she was the host and the musical guests. And I wasn't familiar really with her music, but she had this song on there, You Should Be Sad. And I just fell in love with it. So I've actually been playing that on repeat for like a while. I love her vocals on it. It like just makes me feel really good. Bryan Robinson 16:28 Yeah, so specifically that song but then kind of the whole, her whole artistry. Jenn Creighton 16:34 I let I let that song play and then I'll listen to like a lot of the other ones on the album and I'm finding that I really enjoy her songs, which is really great. Jenn Creighton 16:44 And just depends on what mood I'm in. Bryan Robinson 16:47 What other moods strike you for, for other musical tastes. Jenn Creighton 16:51 And sometimes we like to go old school like country. Little little like kind of plucky banjo sound You know, really enjoy that sometimes. So I went through an Iggy Azalea phase. That was an interesting period of my life. Bryan Robinson 17:10 I think we've all been through that sort of phase. We've all been there. Jenn Creighton 17:14 Sometimes my my discover weekly on Spotify, I think is consistently confused. It's like, remember when you were sad? Well, here's all the sad songs and I'm like, oh, but Spotify. I'm not sad anymore. It's like, Okay. Here's poppy feminist music. I'm like, no, we're not in that mood. We're angry, now. Where's the angry? It's like, I cannot help you, I'm sorry. Sorry, Spotify. Bryan Robinson 17:39 The algorithm can only do so much for you. Cool. So is there anything that you would like to promote something you're doing something you want get out to the JAMstack community? Jenn Creighton 17:47 Well, first of all, if they're interested, they can follow me on Twitter. My handle is gurlcode girl with a "u". I'm also going to be speaking here in New York at React Day New York. Later in September, I'm going to be speaking about some things I have learned going from React to React Native, which is a whole new world for me. And then I'm also developing a course on React component architecture. That's my, my favorite sort of subject. I'm developing it for Thinkster. So that should be coming out, I think in a few months, if I have enough time to do all the recordings Bryan Robinson 18:24 Very cool. And also, I haven't watched it yet, but I'm super excited now that I've seen it to go watch your the "What happens next", the choose your own adventure with iterators. Like, I have to go watch that I saw that topic. I said, Okay, carving out the time for that one. Jenn Creighton 18:39 I love iterators I love them so much. They're wild. They're in so many things that we use in JavaScript, and we have no clue. And that's what that talk is about. And also it's like ridiculous and silly. You're on like an alien planet solving a mystery. And I had this artists do this beautiful work for it. So it's ridiculous, but yeah, Bryan Robinson 19:00 Ridiculous is the best way to go. Jenn Creighton 19:03 Yeah, it's like funny and weird. I enjoy it. Bryan Robinson 19:06 Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. And we'll be sure to link all those, all those amazing things that you're doing up in the show notes. And yeah, thanks for taking the time. Jenn Creighton 19:14 Thank you for having me really enjoyed it. Bryan Robinson 19:16 And as always, thank you to the amazing JAMstack community, your continued support via shares, likes favorites, and all those mechanisms is so incredible that I literally just don't have the words to deal with it. Bryan Robinson 19:29 With that it's sponsored time, and we're talking about the amazing content platform take shape. This week, I want to mention their amazing GraphQL API. It's not an afterthought, but a fully realized part of their platform. It means that whether you use their CMS or another platform entirely, you have an incredibly easy access to all your data in one simple API call. Do you want to see what that's like? Head on over to takeshape.io/that'smyjamstack to sign up. And with that, I'll take my leave of your ears. So until next week, Keep doing amazing things on the web and keep things JammyTranscribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.comSupport That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

Today we sit down with award winning cartoonist, a book apart author, web animations expert, new member to the React Core Team, and all round lovely human Rachel Nabors. We talk about her journey to React, the Woman at the Heart of React zine (from this years React Conf), and her charter to make React and React Native documentation friendly, powerful, and inclusive.

New 16" MacBook Pro, The Pragmatic Programmer, React Conf 2019, and Redux Style Guide!

In the immortal words of TLC, "Don't go chasing waterfalls". Turns out they're really easy to find in React today. Joe Savona joins us to talk about avoiding waterfalls in your React code. He's here for our 2nd of 6 React Conf 2019 interviews to talk about data-fetching strategies with Suspense. Joe has spent the last year working with the React team in developing a relay-suspense integration for the new facebook.com. He shares the lessons and patterns they've learned and how they're baking great user experience into Relay. Fetch-on-render, fetch-then-render, and Render-as-you-fetch are patterns you'll be hearing more often as Suspense picks up steam. Thankfully, in today's episode Joe helps us navigate that verbiage and determine what our first steps with Suspense should be.

Today we kick off our first of 6 React Conf interviews. We start with Andrew Clark to learn what this React Conf 2019 means for us — our libraries and apps. He's a core team member who cut his React teeth on the fiber re-write and he's been deep in Concurrent React for 3 years. We chat about future features, prerelease channels, and how Suspense is preparing the way for others to bring cooperative concurrency to their libraries, applications, and frameworks.

This week is React Conf! And I suspect that Suspense and Concurrent Mode will have a good showing. So — in anticipation and excitement — I asked friend of the show, Swyx, to join me for a Suspense/Concurrent React rundown episode — covering everything you need to know so far and what we hope to see at this year's event. Neither of us have priviliged info. We're just two nerds who like to keep abreast of React's most exciting future feature.

In this episode, Andrew Wiebe, David Gass, Bobby Warshaw and Matt Doyle celebrate the opening weekend of the Audi 2019 MLS Cup Playoffs weekend. It was spell-binding, mind-boggling and absolutely stupid in the best possible way. Goals, controversial moments, extra time (times three) and home teams (sans Minnesota) handling business. The guys dig into Adrian Heath’s lineup decisions, the Union’s historic win, the Red Bulls’ future, Portland’s head-scratching season, Wayne Rooney’s final MLS game, Dallas’ kids almost getting it done and Michael Parkhurst’s nasty injury. Plus, four full Conference Semifinal previews, including a mouth-watering El Trafico showdown. Also in this episode … NorCal soccer expert Evan Ream joins the show to talk about the newest MLS expansion team: Sacramento Republic. Ream explains why the bid finally came good, what changed, what the supporters are like, what kind of club the Republic will be in 2022 and who will be Sacramento’s natural rival. 3:58 – Did Adrian Heath’s overthink his lineup in LA loss? 14:11 – Union make history? Red Bulls have big questions to answer… 23:49 – What happened to the Portland Timbers? Why no Diego Valeri? 26:51 –Wayne Rooney’s final MLS game … What now for D.C. United? 31:31 – FC Dallas plays the kids and almost shocks the Sounders 35:30 – Josef Martinez no-shows, but Parky and ATLUTD gut it out 38:34 –PREVIEW: NYCFC vs. Toronto FC … How can Reds upset the Blues? 46:19 – PREVIEW: Seattle vs. Real Salt Lake … Are Sounders vulnerable? 51:24 – PREVIEW: Atlanta United vs. Philadelphia Union … Bigger injury concerns? 56:36 – PREVIEW: LAFC vs. LA Galaxy … El Trafico in the playoffs!!!!! 1:00:31 – INTERVIEW: All about Sacramento Republic, MLS’s newest team, w/ Evan Ream

Sponsors Netlify Sentry use the code “devchat” for $100 credit Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Panel Charles Max Wood Nader Dabit Justin Bennett Joined by Special Guest: Adam Laycock Summary Adam Laycock describes his experience at React conf 2018, the atmosphere, the people and the talks. The panel shares how the approach conferences, taking notes, getting to know people, accessing information and getting out of their comfort zone. Adam shares some of the major topics covered at including, hooks, suspense, and concurrent rendering. The panel considers these topics and React conferences they look forward to attending. The episode ends with the panel comparing Angular and React, conferences, upgrades, and routers for React. Links https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/build https://medium.com/curated-by-versett/talks-worth-watching-react-conf-2018-bfbdd40922aa https://reactjs.org/community/conferences.html https://twitter.com/atlaycock https://github.com/alaycock https://adamlaycock.ca/ https://medium.com/@adam.laycock https://twitter.com/reactroundup https://www.facebook.com/React-Round-Up Picks Charles Max Wood https://www.notion.so/ The Effective Executive by Peter F. Drucker http://entreprogrammers.com/ Michael Feathers Kent Beck Nader Dabit https://dev.to/dabit3 Justin Bennett https://github.com/Bogdan-Lyashenko/codecrumbs https://medium.com/palantir/tslint-in-2019-1a144c2317a9 https://www.npmjs.com/package/rate-limiter-flexible Adam Laycock https://kentcdodds.com/blog/please-stop-building-inaccessible-forms-and-how-to-fix-them https://medium.com/curated-by-versett/dont-eject-your-create-react-app-b123c5247741 Clean Architecture: A Craftsman's Guide to Software Structure and Design by Robert C. Martin

Sponsors Netlify Sentry use the code “devchat” for $100 credit Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Panel Charles Max Wood Nader Dabit Justin Bennett Joined by Special Guest: Adam Laycock Summary Adam Laycock describes his experience at React conf 2018, the atmosphere, the people and the talks. The panel shares how the approach conferences, taking notes, getting to know people, accessing information and getting out of their comfort zone. Adam shares some of the major topics covered at including, hooks, suspense, and concurrent rendering. The panel considers these topics and React conferences they look forward to attending. The episode ends with the panel comparing Angular and React, conferences, upgrades, and routers for React. Links https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/build https://medium.com/curated-by-versett/talks-worth-watching-react-conf-2018-bfbdd40922aa https://reactjs.org/community/conferences.html https://twitter.com/atlaycock https://github.com/alaycock https://adamlaycock.ca/ https://medium.com/@adam.laycock https://twitter.com/reactroundup https://www.facebook.com/React-Round-Up Picks Charles Max Wood https://www.notion.so/ The Effective Executive by Peter F. Drucker http://entreprogrammers.com/ Michael Feathers Kent Beck Nader Dabit https://dev.to/dabit3 Justin Bennett https://github.com/Bogdan-Lyashenko/codecrumbs https://medium.com/palantir/tslint-in-2019-1a144c2317a9 https://www.npmjs.com/package/rate-limiter-flexible Adam Laycock https://kentcdodds.com/blog/please-stop-building-inaccessible-forms-and-how-to-fix-them https://medium.com/curated-by-versett/dont-eject-your-create-react-app-b123c5247741 Clean Architecture: A Craftsman's Guide to Software Structure and Design by Robert C. Martin

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Clubhouse CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to “generate” solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ My Angular Story 049: Joe Eames My Angular Story 073: Joe Eames https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Clubhouse CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to “generate” solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ My Angular Story 049: Joe Eames My Angular Story 073: Joe Eames https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Clubhouse CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to “generate” solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ My Angular Story 049: Joe Eames My Angular Story 073: Joe Eames https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My Angular Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to "generate" solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ https://devchat.tv/my-angular-story/mas-049-joe-eames/ https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My Angular Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to "generate" solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ https://devchat.tv/my-angular-story/mas-049-joe-eames/ https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Host: Charles Max Wood Guest: Joe Eames Episode Summary In this episode of My Angular Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Joe Eames, CEO of Thinkster.io and organizer of many different conferences, two of which are the AngularJS conference, ng-conf, and the WordPress developer conference, LoopConf. Joe is a front end web developer and an educator. He has authored over 10 Pluralsight.com courses. He is also a panelist on the JavaScript Jabber podcast and the Adventures in Angular podcast on DevChat.TV. Joe talks about his passion project, being on the organization team of Framework Summit, a two-day conference focused on all front end JavaScript frameworks, the first of which was held in Utah in October 2018. It was a great success and he and the rest of the organization team will be looking to repeat it in January of 2020. Another conference Joe was involved in organizing was React Conf 2018 which took place in October in Henderson, Nevada. He is in the process of organizing the React Conf 2019 with the rest of the organization team. Aside from organizing conferences Joe’s second passion is education. He has started up a podcast called Dev Ed Podcast. Joe has recently become the CEO of Thinkster.io. Thinkster.io is a unique platform where learners can really master web development with a lot of hands on training. Joe wants developers to be able to learn how to "generate" solutions to problems. He explains the concept of “interleaving” while learning a subject which helps students retain more and learn faster. Links https://webflow.com/ https://devchat.tv/my-angular-story/mas-049-joe-eames/ https://twitter.com/josepheames https://medium.com/@josepheames https://github.com/joeeames https://thinkster.io/ https://reactrally.com https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte https://github.com/stimulusjs/stimulus https://www.ng-conf.org/ https://twitter.com/loopconf http://www.pluralsight.com/author/joe-eames https://www.facebook.com/adventuresinangular https://twitter.com/angularpodcast https://www.frameworksummit.com/ https://conf.reactjs.org/ Dev Ed Podcast Picks Joe Eames: Gizmo Board Game Chronicles of Crime Board Game Deep Space D-6 Board Game https://boardgamegeek.com/ Charles Max Wood: Villainous Board Game Pandemic Legacy Season 2 Board Game Splendor Board Game Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle Board Game

Matt Perry is the developer behind PopMotion, a declarative animation library for the web. Chantastic asks his inspiration for PopMotion, the difficulties of maintaining a low-level open source library, what he things declarative APIs might look like in the future. They’re discussion goes all over the place. You kinda just have to listen…

Jen Luker is a lead software engineer at Formidable Labs, keynote speaker, host of @BookBytesFM, and expert knitter. Chantastic asks her about the Fiber Arts Corner at React Conf, the history that textiles and programming share, and how we can make our apps more accessible.

Recording date: 2018-11-13 John Papa https://twitter.com/john_papa Ward Bell https://twitter.com/wardbell Dan Wahlin https://twitter.com/danwahlin Jen Luker https://twitter.com/knitcodemonkey Resources: section 508 https://webaim.org/standards/508/checklist The a11y project https://a11yproject.com/ Jaws https://www.freedomscientific.com/Products/Blindness/JAWS ARIA https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA The https://www.starbucks.com/careers/ Starbucks career site WCAG https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ Jen helped author https://www.npmjs.com/package/eslint-plugin-jsx-a11y Husky https://www.npmjs.com/package/husky Google A11y https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/accessibility/ Lighthouse https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lighthouse/blipmdconlkpinefehnmjammfjpmpbjk?hl=en Azure text to speech https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/cognitive-services/text-to-speech/ amazon polly https://aws.amazon.com/polly/ Amazon Polly on Dan's blog: https://blog.codewithdan.com/8-tips-for-maximizing-your-productivity/ *Someone to follow * Gleb Bahmutov https://twitter.com/bahmutov Tejas Kumar https://twitter.com/TejasKumar_ Rick Strahl https://twitter.com/RickStrahl Transcript { credit to Jen Luker } (Intro Music) 0:00:06.6 Voiceover Welcome to Real Talk JavaScript, the weekly talk show with advice and insight into the technologies and practices currently being used to build web applications in the real world. Each week John Papa and Ward Bell talk to industry experts about their experiences writing, deploying and maintaining web applications in HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And now, here are your hosts, John and Ward. 0:00:40.0 John Papa Welcome back to Real Talk JavaScript, this is Episode 11: Accessibility in JavaScript Apps and this week I’ve got my co-host, Dan Wahlin. How’s it going, Dan? 0:00:48.8 Dan Wahlin Going great, John. 0:00:49.9 John Papa And Dan, today we have a special guest of Jen Luker. How’re you doing, Jen? 0:00:54.6 Jen Luker Doing pretty well today. How are you? 0:00:56.0 John Papa We’re doing pretty good, thank you very much. Jen is a Senior Software Engineer at Formidable, BookBytes Podcast co-host, RxJS Learning Team member, and eslint-plugin-react-native-a11y core contributor. Jen has spent a majority of her career as a full stack developer but has a particular fondness for frontend technologies, thus why she’s here today. And she trains others in ReactJS and Accessibility, and enjoys removing obstacles that slow down productivity and loves optimizing webpack builds. When she’s not finding solutions or mentoring others, her spare time is spent spinning yarn from raw wool and knitting. She’s even better known to 3D print her own tools for the job. 0:01:33.3 Dan Wahlin Nice! 0:01:34.0 John Papa Welcome to the show, Jen. 0:01:35.2 Jen Luker Thank you! 0:01:36.0 John Papa There’s a lot in there. I mean, you’re not- 0:01:37.9 Jen Luker Yeah… 0:01:37.9 John Papa Just a JavaScript coder with ReactJS. It looks like you do a lot of teaching, and knitting! That’s pretty cool. 0:01:44.1 Jen Luker Haha, it’s… I like to say that I’m a knitter first and then a programmer second. So, it’s definitely a large part of my life. 0:01:53.3 John Papa You mean you do something besides coding all day? 0:01:56.1 Jen Luker It happens. 0:01:56.9 John Papa & Dan Wahlin (laughing) 0:01:58.9 Dan Wahlin You know, I have heard more and more people with knitting now. I, like, I hear that, I also do a lot of training, and I hear that all the time now, so it must be a big upcoming... trend I guess, I don’t know. 0:02:11.5 Jen Luker I think it has a little more to do with the fact that what we do as developers is often fleeting. It’s something that exists online, it’s not something tangible. Knitting is a programming language that sticks around long enough for you to wear it. So it’s- 0:02:28.9 John Papa I see. 0:02:30.4 Jen Luker Definitely caters to those that need that tangible aspect in their lives. But one of the coolest things I’ve seen knitting be used for, not just, you know, cryptography World War II, but also things like using it as a programming simulator for people that don’t have access to computers, such as people in Third World countries. So it’s definitely something that caters to the mind of programmers. 0:02:56.6 Dan Wahlin Interesting. Yeah, I’ve… Some of the people, too, have also mentioned it just helps them, it’s very relaxing they said. I don’t know how to knit, I haven’t tried it, but it looks fun. 0:03:04.3 John Papa So now, when we see Dan at his next conference, right before his talk, with a ball of yarn and some needles, we’ll know exactly why that happened. 0:03:10.7 Dan Wahlin Yeah. I’ll say, “Jen inspired me!” 0:03:13.0 John Papa & Dan Wahlin (laughing) 0:03:14.1 Jen Luker Well, you do know that at React Conf they actually had a fiberarts circle that I ran, so I ended up teaching quite a few people to knit, and crochet, and spin at that conference. So- 0:03:24.2 Dan Wahlin That’s so cool! 0:03:25.2 Jen Luker It is a possibility. 0:03:26.3 John Papa Huh! 0:03:26.8 Dan Wahlin There you go. 0:03:27.4 John Papa That is so cool. Yeah, I think we all have different ways of dealing with non programming mindsets. Like, what do you do when you’re not coding? And some people exercise, some people meditate, some people draw, some people play music, some people knit! So, I think it’s great to have something to kind of work different parts of your brain. 0:03:47.0 Jen Luker Definitely. 0:03:47.7 John Papa Hey, Dan! You had a question for us to kick things off about accessibility. 0:03:50.7 Dan Wahlin Yeah! So, I think we hear a lot… I used to work, one of my first jobs out of college was at a government agency and so there it was kind of required to learn about section 508 and things. But with corporations and with a lot of the developers I work with, I’ll have to admit I think we’re a little more in the dark on… 0:04:11.2 What are some of the ways, like, if I were to say, “Hey Jen, what are the key ways from a high level that I could add some accessibility things and like, who can I help with that?” Because I think a lot of us, we think, “Oh, well I just add a title to an image and call it a day.” 0:04:28.0 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:04:28.5 Dan Wahlin And I suspect there’s a lot more to it than that. 0:04:30.6 Jen Luker There is a lot more to it but there’s different ways of approaching accessibility on the web. One of the ways is technologically, which is oftentimes what developers deal with, but that’s only 30-50% of the problems you’re going to find in accessibility issues. The other half is going to be content and context and verbiage and language and ways that you say things that make it easier for people that have different disabilities, like neurological issues, or language barriers from interacting with the content on the site. 0:05:08.5 To deal with the technological side though, I tend to point people towards the aXe, Chrome, and Firefox extensions to begin with because it not only runs like, a technological audit on your site, but it also gives you more information. There’s always links that explain why there’s a problem, why the types of people that you’re focusing when you fix an issue, and different ways that you can fix an issue. So it’s a really great educational tool for just getting started. 0:05:43.6 John Papa Excellent. 0:05:44.2 Dan Wahlin Yeah, see, you already hit on a couple things like, you mentioned neurologically how maybe people interpret or have the context for different text. And I actually have a son with some disabilities so I’m very sensitive to this whole, you know, concept. It’s amazing how when you’re not around it, you just don’t think about it. But when you’re around it, it becomes, you know, your whole world. A big deal. So, you know, that’s when I hadn’t ever heard of- Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Is that related to the context you put into, like, the site, then, that helps them understand it better? Or how’s that work? 0:06:18.5 Jen Luker It is. Something that they recommend, or things that I’ve seen regarding recommendations for the level of content does vary depending on who your audience is. If you are a technical journal then chances are you’re going to be catering to a much more technical audience. However, if you’re a generic website you may want to keep your verbiage as low-level as possible, like anything between a third grade level to a high school level education, to allow for people to better understand the words that you’re actually putting on a page, and what the words are trying to tell you. 0:07:00.0 Like, you’ve got one side where you have people with ADHD that is not going to make it to the end of a 6-paragraph description of what it is you’re supposed to do. And then you have people on the other side of the spectrum that really need step-by-step instructions of what it is they need to do to get through your form. So trying to find that happy medium, or trying to find a way of giving a TLDR and then a longer context for different sides of that issue, is also something you may want to look at. 0:07:31.1 Dan Wahlin Interesting, yeah. I’ll have to admit that’s something that I haven’t really, you know, you mentioned third grade through, maybe, high school level and I think, as developers, we, especially if we’re in charge of putting some of the content, you know, out there ourselves, that’s something that I don’t think I’ve really thought through as to, you know, who’s my target that’s going to be reading this? As far as, you know, you think of, “I know these words and I’m sure everyone else will know these words.” But it sounds like you’re a lot better off if you can kind of reign that in a little bit, make it more focused. 0:08:02.3 Jen Luker Something that I’ve found that’s extremely different for even a dev when they’re onboarding into a new company is learning the names of things, and learning the acronyms for things. So if you’re using customized names for your products or your processes or you’re using acronyms, then you’re already losing part of your audience who just doesn’t understand what those things mean. 0:08:28.6 John Papa So, I think that’s a great point. This isn’t just for accessibility for, even for people like, let’s just say vision-impaired on one side. This is for anybody who doesn’t necessarily know your vernacular. 0:08:38.8 Jen Luker Exactly. 0:08:39.8 John Papa You go to a new company, what’s the first thing they do? “Hey, today we’re going to use the TLC with the EBY and then we’re going to talk with the XJ Bots.” And you’re like, “...What does any of that actually mean?” 0:08:49.4 Jen Luker I recently onboarded with a company and someone was very nice enough to put together a cheat sheet of acronyms for me and it was five pages long. 0:08:57.5 John Papa (laughs) 0:08:58.0 Dan Wahlin Wow! (laughs) 0:08:59.0 John Papa When I went to Disney one of my first things they did, like my first week there, was I got a book like that, too. 0:09:05.3 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:09:05.8 John Papa And the funny thing at Disney was the every TLA, which is a three-letter acronym which is kind of funny, the first letter of all of them begin with D for "Disney". Which really- 0:09:14.3 Jen Luker Yeah. 0:09:13.8 John Papa Only left two letters for all the rest. (laughs) 0:09:16.8 ALL (laughing) 0:09:17.9 John Papa I don't know if it's changed since then though. (laughs) But let's, let's start back. So on that same note, there's something I've seen a lot of over the years, and when I first encountered this, it's not an acronym but it's an abbreviation, I didn't know what the heck it meant. But, and maybe there's other people in the same boat so I wanted to talk about it with you. A-11-Y. 0:09:39.1 Jen Luker Yes. 0:09:40.0 John Papa Can you explain what that is and why people see that? 0:09:42.6 Jen Luker So back in the days of Twitter when there were only 140 characters, writing out a really long word like "accessibility" which is 13 letter long, took up a lot of space. So due to Twitter and their awesome audience, they shortened it to A11Y which is A-, the first letter in "accessibility", 11 letters, and then Y-, the last letter in "accessibility." You see the same thing with "Kubernetes" with K8S, or "internationalization" which is I18N. So any of those really long words end up getting shortened to first letter, number of characters in between first and last letter, and last letter. 0:10:26.0 John Papa Yeah, that's... that's kind of funny, you know? Once I realized that, I started going, "You know, I've been using I18N for years and I didn't know why it was called that." 0:10:33.1 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:10:33.2 John Papa Until I discovered it through A11Y, 'cause we, our nickname for it when we were talking about it was "ally". 0:10:39.0 Jen Luker Which I think is highly appropriate. 0:10:40.7 John Papa Yeah, yep. It kind of is a... 0:10:42.8 Dan Wahlin It fits it. 0:10:43.6 John Papa It kinda worked for us, too. 0:10:44.8 Dan Wahlin Yeah. 0:10:45.3 John Papa So, Dan, you're really D1N and Jen, you're J1n. It doesn't really work for our short first names, does it? 0:10:50.8 Dan Wahlin & Jen Luker (laughing) 0:10:52.0 Jen Luker Well, Jen is already shortened. 0:10:53.9 John Papa Yeah, yeah. It doesn't really help. What if your name is Al? What do you do? You only have two letters. 0:10:58.4 Dan Wahlin Yeah, there you're out of luck. 0:10:59.3 Jen Luker First and last. 0:11:01.0 John Papa A0L I guess? AOL! There you go! That's what AOL stood for. 0:11:05.4 Dan Wahlin Al. 0:11:06.4 John Papa The secret has been revealed, right here. 0:11:07.5 Dan Wahlin Who knew? 0:11:08.3 Jen Luker (laughs) 0:11:09.0 John Papa (laughs) So accessibility. One of the things I think that was really eye-opening to me was understanding how many people this actually affects. When I first started getting into it many years ago on some large projects the things that were introduced to me were,"Well, we're doing this because there are, you know, millions of people who are affected by this and we're really trying to make the web more accessible." You know, it sounds like a grandiose thing, but that was true. We were trying to make our websites more accessible to all these people who either couldn't use our websites, or they could but with much difficulty. 0:11:43.0 Jen Luker Right. 0:11:43.6 John Papa Now, what kind of scale is this really at? Is it just one guy down the street? Or is it, you know? How big is this? 0:11:48.8 Jen Luker Well the World Health Organization estimates that about 15% of the entire world has some sort of disability. This is a highly conservative number. Not everyone wants to identify with the fact that they have a disability. There's definitely a level of taboo that comes with the word "disability." So- 0:12:13.3 Dan Wahlin Yep, I can vouch for that. 0:12:15.6 Jen Luker Right? So there's a lot of people that will not identify with that label and therefore the 15% is, in fact, a very limited number. You know, if you're looking just in the U.S. they estimate, as of the 2012 census so it's been a while, 19% of people, so almost 1 in 5. If you're looking at other numbers we're looking at 8% of you men who are colorblind of some fashion, and it's not an on and off switch, there's a varying degree. There's also people with multiple versions of color blindness. There are people with very slight color blindness so it's almost unnoticeable. The range is quite large and about 1% of women also are colorblind. So you're looking at about 4.5% of the population as a whole just for one type of disability. 0:13:10.8 John Papa That's fascinating, and it hits, at part for me, that's at home, too. 'Cause I also identify as being partially colorblind, I guess you could say. I'm on that scale. 0:13:19.8 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:13:20.4 John Papa I don't have full blown color blindness because I can still determine some colors but others I have struggles with. 0:13:25.8 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:13:26.4 John Papa But I've also found that when I identify with this I get a lot of backlash from people of, "Well you're not really colorblind." Or, you know, there's a lot of disbelief. It's almost like it's become, "Oh, I'm sorry." So I can totally empathize with you on why people wouldn't want to identify with any of these things ‘cause it's almost like they put them in a category of, "Oh, well... the pity category." 0:13:48.0 Jen Luker Right? And there's differences in color blindness. It's not just grayscale in everything. There's the red/green, there's blue/green, there's you know, the trichotomy side, there's... there's a lot of different variations, and then there's some people that can see the differences between but the colors are all still muted. The more muted they are the less likely you're going to be able to tell the difference between them which really starts to rear its ugly head when you're looking at images or text color changes. So, it gets complicated fast. 0:14:25.8 John Papa Is this the real answer to what color that dress is on the internet streams? 0:14:29.6 ALL (laughing) 0:14:31.5 Dan Wahlin Oh my gosh. 0:14:32.5 Jen Luker That's a whole other fascinating concept- 0:14:34.6 John Papa (laughs) 0:14:34.9 Jen Luker When it comes to how each person perceives color- 0:14:39.2 Dan Wahlin Yeah. That was- 0:14:39.1 Jen Luker And how no one actually perceives them the same way. 0:14:41.5 Dan Wahlin That was pretty freaky, actually. 0:14:42.9 John Papa Yeah, I know. (laughs) Yeah, I get that a lot from folks on, themes for example. I like to create themes for VS Code or for other tools and when you create a theme people get very personal over what theme they choose. And the reason I created my own is because I like mine to look the way I look and it makes me feel good, it makes me more productive, but not everybody likes one theme. There's probably, you know, 100 great themes out there. It's because everybody looks at things differently and they have varying degrees of sensitivity to the colors, too. 0:15:14.0 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:15:14.4 John Papa So, you're building an app and you have to pull accessibility in. What kind of apps should use accessibility? 0:15:21.1 Jen Luker All of them. 0:15:22.0 John Papa Good answer. (laughs) 0:15:23.5 Dan Wahlin Yeah, it's a good one. I was gonna say, "Great answer." 0:15:24.3 Jen Luker (laughs) 0:15:25.0 John Papa What does it cost for money? I mean, I a business manager now. Does it cost more money? How much more time is it going to take? Do I need to teach my people how to build web apps for accessibility? What kind of things are affected by it? I don't have time for this, no, let's not do it. I bet you've heard all these things? 0:15:40.3 Jen Luker Oh yeah! Absolutely. 0:15:41.7 John Papa How do you answer those? 0:15:42.9 Jen Luker Well, there's a couple different ways. The not so passive-aggressive way is to find the person closest to them that's colorblind and then sit them down and say, "Can you explain to them why we're not going to write the website in a way that they can use it? This person in that company that works for you." That tends to drop, you know, that tends to pull up some people's shorts. 0:16:06.6 But the other ways is you can start talking about those financials. If you're looking at the return on investment take those 15% of the population. If you are, you know, a $10 million company, by making your website accessible it's an $11.5 million company, and that's just your slice of the 15%. Only 1 in 10 websites is accessible, which means you still have the opportunity to corner the market in your region, your demographic. That means that that 15% could very well be larger than the rest of the people that use your website. 0:16:53.4 Dan Wahlin That's an interesting concept from a, you know, purely financial standpoint. I’d never even thought about that, even cornering your own market. 0:17:00.1 John Papa And that's what a lot of people make decisions on, right? If you're gonna make more money, it's still making- Think like a business manager. You're telling me my $10 million app I can pull in $11.5 million instead; an extra 1.5 million a year, which is, pick some fake numbers for a minute. 0:17:13.9 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:17:14.5John Papa What's the cost though? Of building that app, what's the additional cost? 0:17:18.7 Jen Luker If you're designing it from the ground up it's very little additional cost. So a lot of the major issues have to do with color contrasts. Other ones have to do with making sure, you know, as you've said before, title tags on HTML or hrefs or ALT tags on images. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the platform, HTML, is inherently accessible and we, as JavaScript developers, go ahead and run through and override it and make it inaccessible. So, sticking closer to the platform is usually enough to cover the majority of accessibility issues. 0:18:03.4 John Papa Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. 0:18:05.8 Voiceover Looking to learn more about the state of software security? Check out VeraCode’s recently released report, "State of Software Security Volume 9." This year's report highlights the more important open source vulnerabilities and the latest dev sec-ops trends. Dev sec-ops, by the way, is kind of like "devops" plus "security". This is VeraCode’s most developer-focused volume ever. So don't miss out. Get your copy today by visiting www.VeraCode.com/SOSS for State of Software Security. That's www. v-e-r-a- code.com slash S-O-S-S-. 0:18:47.0 John Papa And we're back. Jen, you were just talking about how you can stick to the platform and that might help you build accessible apps. Can you kind of explain what you mean by that? 0:18:55.4 Jen Luker I usually mean by using semantic HTML as much as possible for the reasons it's made. For instance there's a lot of... A lot of developers that still would rather use a div over a button, but the complexities inmaking a div accessible like a button go deeper than you'd expect. So it's not just adding a highlight, adding text or a keyboard interaction. It's also weird things like, in some versions of ios, if you don't add a cursor pointer in the CSS, ios won't detect that it's a link, even if you tell it that it is. 0:19:39.0 John Papa Hmm. That's interesting. 0:19:40.0 Dan Wahlin Yeah, I don't think I've run into that, myself. 0:19:42.5 John Papa Oh, we hear about semantic HTML a lot, right Dan? About, "Don't use divs everywhere!" But yet, I don't know about you, but a lot of apps I get called in to look at it's like, div craziness. 0:19:52.5 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:19:53.2 Dan Wahlin I call it div soup. 0:19:54.7 John Papa (laughs) Div soup! 0:19:55.0 Jen Luker (laughs) 0:19:56.4 Dan Wahlin Yeah. How much, so Jen, are there numbers out there, and I'm sure there are, for people- 'cause I know probably the only program I've heard of would be for people with vision, you know, various issues from they're completely blind to partially. How many different apps are out there? What, is there a number one app that you use to actually read these pages to them? Like, I've heard "JAWS", is that still a thing these days? 0:20:21.1 Jen Luker JAWS is definitely a huge things, particularly for windows systems. Other screen readers would be just the default screen reader that Mac uses. Chrome has its own that you can implement, too. There's a dozen major, major players. 0:20:44.0 Dan Wahlin Okay. 0:20:46.1 Jen Luker So, and not all of them, just like the browsers, read the text or the website in the same way. Even ios and android devices have different readers of their own. So, each one kind of reads things a little bit differently. It's important to be aware of those differences once you start really digging deep into accessibility, especially if you're trying to customize something away from semantic HTML. 0:21:13.5 Dan Wahlin Now does, you mentioned, I mean, the thing that I think most developers probably have heard of are title attributes, and like you mentioned, the ALT on images, things like that. One that probably most people have come across, and you're going to have to correct me if I say this wrong, I've already said "ARIA?" [pronounced are-ee-uh] 0:21:30.7 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:21:31.3 Dan Wahlin Is it ARIA [pronounced are-ee-uh] or ARIA [pronounced air-ee-uh?] Is it ARIA [pronounced are-ee-uh]? 0:21:32.6 Jen Luker I call it ARIA [pronounced are-ee-uh]. It's WAI-ARIA [pronounced why-are-ee-uh]. 0:21:34.2 Dan Wahlin Okay then. I'm going with you then. So, okay. See, I'm right, everyone! 0:21:38.6 John Papa & Jen Luker (laughing) 0:21:39.3 Dan Wahlin 'Cause Jen says! 0:21:40.8 Jen Luker Ha! 0:21:42.1 Dan Wahlin Now that's one I've only seen a few of the, I guess you could say core attributes that you can do with ARIA, but do those play a, I would assume, a pretty big role then? With some of the screen readers out there? 0:21:54.3 Jen Luker Yes and no. Going back to semantic HTML, if you're using just HTML then there's really no need for the ARIA roles. The roles themselves are built in to the platform-specific HTML; however, if you are deviating from that plan or you are using something a little closer to HTML5 then ARIA can play a role in making sure that exactly what you want read to a screen reader is defined. So, usually the first rule of ARIA is "Don't use ARIA." But there's definitely a place for it. 0:22:40.9 Dan Wahlin Okay, good to know. Yeah. I think that's one area that, you know, I'm comfortable with the semantic tags and it's good to hear that those are still the, kind of, I guess, goal. 0:22:51.3 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:22:52.1 Dan Wahlin But I'm not as familiar with the ARIA stuff. You know, you'll see it, for instance, even in some of the, if you use Bootstrap all, the CSS. 0:22:59.2 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:22:59.5 Dan Wahlin I've noticed they'll add it here and there. If you use Font Awesome I've noticed there'll even be some ARIA-type stuff. But kind of one of those where you copy and paste it and don't really know what it does, you know, without looking it up more. 0:23:10.5John Papa You bring up a great point there with Font Awesome, Dan. Font Awesome, if my memory serves me right, you take a icon tag, right? The i and then you almost always have to stick in an ARIA attribute into there because you're effectively making a button, sometimes, out of that. So you're making a button out of an icon, which isn't really a button, and maybe you don't want it to be inside of a button control. Which almost always leads to end up using the ARIA attributes on there. Is that a bad thing, Jen? Or is that, I mean, 'cause that's what I see a lot out there. I mean, just 'cause I see it doesn't mean that it's right. 0:23:45.7 Jen Luker For the most part what you want in a button is text; however, we often use icons for those buttons. If you can possibly wrap it in a button control that would be better than just trying to add ARIA items to the icon itself. However, that is a way to get around that. Ideally you'd add a button, you'd tell the button its title and its value and that's what ends up getting read instead of just an empty icon. 0:24:20.0 John Papa Yeah, I hear you. Ideally, I try to do that as well, and I'm actually trying to pull up some code of where I've done this before to kind of get sense for, you know, "Why did I do that as opposed to actually using a button, in that case?” And I think sometimes it's more about styling and maybe it's just about effort. Like, you could put it inside of a button. If you didn't really want it to look like a button you could then restyle the button so it didn't look that way. 0:24:44.7 Jen Luker It is so easy to restyle a button- 0:24:48.1 John Papa Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:24:47.8 Jen Luker So that it doesn't actually look like a button. 0:24:49.4 John Papa Yeah. 0:24:49.9 Jen Luker It is so easy. It's like three lines of CSS and suddenly it's just your icon. 0:24:55.9 John Papa I think you're right on that. I mean, and that's actually gets back to a thing of, Daniel you'll laugh at this, it makes me think of Silverlight. (laughs) The old Silverlight days. 0:25:04.2 Jen Luker (laughs) Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:25:05.3 John Papa Where everything was described as a lookless control. And I kind of wish, in some ways, HTML was like that. 0:25:11.8 Dan Wahlin Yeah. 0:25:12.4 John Papa Whereas, out of the box, a button has a certain look and a feel. I wish it didn't. Like, you had to add those things because I feel like because there already is a standard way these things are represented... Like, you stick a button on a page you get a certain look, and it's almost never exactly what you want it to look like anyway. So maybe if there was a lookless feel to these HTML elements- 0:25:32.6 Dan Wahlin Or at least an option for that, right? 0:25:34.7 John Papa Yeah! 0:25:35.0 Dan Wahlin Where if you want it out of the box, great. But if you don't, here's how you can start from scratch and just add your own CSS in. Which wouldn't be too bad because we typically use, especially for public facing, you know, reset-type CSS, stylesheets anyway. So you could just kind of say, "Nope. Start from scratch and here's what I'm using." 0:25:52.3 John Papa Yeah. 0:25:52.8 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:25:53.1 Dan Wahlin But on that topic, Jen. Is, you know, for your... You obviously specialize in this and I saw in some of the info John was sharing with me that you worked on a website that implemented some automated accessibility testing to meet, is it WCAG? Is that how you say the standard there? 0:26:10.5 Jen Luker Yeah. 0:26:11.1 Dan Wahlin WCAG 2.0? Okay. 0:26:12.5 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:26:13.4 Dan Wahlin Can you tell us more about, kind of that process? And what you need to do there? 0:26:17.6 Jen Luker I actually worked on the Starbucks Careers Site project that was recently released. The benefit of that project is that when they started with a rewrite they started from design up with the intention to comply with WCAG 2.0 AA accessibility. So it was literally baked in from the design up and everybody was on board with engineering it to be as accessible as possible. So it was very much a collaborative effort between the design team, the different developers that worked on it, and even the engineering managers and the product owners. It was a really great process. 0:27:05.2 As far as the testing goes, we actually went through a few different layers of testing. The very first one is we implemented the eslint-jsx... or the eslint-plugin-jsx-a11y ... ESLint plugin. That (laughs)- 0:27:24.8 John Papa Oh, sorry, wait. Just let me make sure I got that one right. It's the eslint-plugin-jsx-a11y, right? 0:27:30.9 Jen Luker Yes! 0:27:31.8 John Papa Okay. Perfect. (laughs) 0:27:32.8 Dan Wahlin Say that 10 times fast. 0:27:33.7 Jen Luker I know. 0:27:34.0 John Papa Exactly. 0:27:34.9 Jen Luker It's really long. Especially when you start talking about the fact that I wrote another one for React Native. So... 0:27:39.4 John Papa (laughs) 0:27:40.0 Jen Luker It's even longer. That was kind of the first line of defense. It was utilized right there with Prettier, which was great. We used husky to run Prettier and the accessibility linter at the same time before someone could push code to the repo. In addition to that, we moved on to using axe-core as implemented into Jest for unit testing. And then we also use axe-core in Enzyme for end-to-end testing once the content was compiled down to static pages. 0:28:26.4 So this allowed us to hit the developers before they even pushed, hit the unit test of each one to make sure that they would comply if given the ideal data, and then made sure that it was still compliant once the data from the APIs was inserted into the page on a real time level. 0:28:52.2 That essentially meant that at every step of the process we made sure that everything was compliant before it made it to live. 0:29:02.1 Dan Wahlin Excellent. This would be public, I guess, right? Is this where people would go to look for a job? Or... is that what it was? It says the careers website, it looks like. 0:29:10.0 Jen Luker Yes, it was actually the... Yeah, it's just Starbucks.com/Careers. 0:29:14.8 John Papa Okay. 0:29:15.5 Jen Luker It was multiple pages, it had its own menu navigation. Once you actually go to look for a job by submitting your resume and stuff, you're transported out to the portal that they use, which we didn't get to go over, but the careers section of the Starbucks.com website is, in fact, accessible. And they're using those to expand that project. 0:29:43.4Dan Wahlin For people that want to learn more about it learn more about it, obviously I guess you could go right click view source on, you know, the careers site, but is there a recommended site that it out there that's considered a really good, almost like cheat sheet of how to get started adding stuff into your site? 0:29:59.5 Jen Luker There is. WCAG 2.0 website. 0:30:03.1Dan Wahlin Okay. 0:30:03.0 Jen Luker Which we will add to the show notes for this. It is on W3's website. That's usually a great place to go dig in and find out what's kind of covered in compliance. If you dig in deep enough you can find examples of how to implement code in an accessible way. They give different formats of how you could implement a menu, different ways of, you know, drop downs, so they do give you examples that would comply with accessibility compliance that I've found isn't always exactly going to suit your needs but gives you a very good idea of what's going to be necessary. 0:30:46.5 Dan Wahlin Okay. And is there, when it comes to, you know, if I'm vision-impaired, as a, from developer standpoint is there a way to really test that? Short of using like JAWS or maybe one of the built in readers you mentioned? Or is there an actual tool out there than can help you, you know, make sure that what you wanted them to hear is actually what gets heard? 0:31:08.0 Jen Luker It's literally manually testing at that point. 0:31:10.8 Dan Wahlin Okay, I kinda figured. But, yeah I'm wondering if there's anything out there. 0:31:14.4 Jen Luker Something I do want to mention about that is when you are dealing with testing screen readers, among other different types of ... you know, accessibility technologies, assistive technologies that help you. Being cold, not knowing them, and going in and trying to test them actually develops a huge amount of frustration. That can actually develop enough frustration that you decide that it's not even worth it for someone else to have to try to deal with this pain even with something is ideal. 0:31:52.0 What you should do is find someone who uses that technology day in and day out. You'll be amazed at how much faster and much easier they navigate through tools. And something that I have found extremely interesting is how they've learned to adapt their interactivity with your site based on how it's already broken. So it can be very fascinating to see how people that interact with it have their actual pain points, which things aren't, and those aren't things that you're going to be able to identify as just a casual user. 0:32:28.8 John Papa Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. 0:32:32.0 Voiceover Are you building a web application? Need to deliver it soon and don’t have the people to do it? Maybe you’re not sure your company has the skillset or experience to do it. Then maybe we can help. 0:32:42.4 I’m your host, Ward Bell, and my day job is building applications for companies like yours. I don’t do it alone, I’m president of IdeaBlade, a consultancy that specializes in enterprise web application development. We’re particularly strong in Angular, RxJS, NgRx Redux on the frontend, and .Net Microsoft technologies on the server. 0:33:03.2 We’re a small tight knit group of people, hand picked by me, for their expertise, experience,integrity, and team spirit. Maybe we can help you with architectural guidance and hands-on development. And if there’s something we don’t know (and in our field, really, there’s too much to know), we can draw on our personal connections in the Microsoft RD, MVP, and Google GDE Networks as well as our international circle of really great developers, people we know and trust personally. 0:33:29.8 If you’ve got a project that’s keeping you up at night shoot us an email at info@ideablade.com. That’s info@IdeaBlade.com. And now back to the show! 0:33:42.0 John Papa And we’re back. Jen, Dan brought up a good question ‘cause I had this same thought, and I know it’s changed throughout the years, too; it’s how do you test for your site being accessible, and I realize, you know, the manual test is the best one. But there’s, and you do some automating as well for this. I noticed you mentioned the eslint plugin that you had. 0:34:01.5 Years ago there was, well it still exists, a Chrome plugin for screen reader which is now labeled as deprecated, and I notice they always link you over to the Lighthouse tools now, the Chrome plugin for that, which does an accessibility audit. I don’t know how you feel but I’m curious, like on, I see for example, the Starbucks Careers site has a, right now, 100 out of 100 score for accessibility. That doesn’t make me feel like it’s done, but it does make me feel like at least, like if there were something missing in that list of what wasn’t 100, I’d know I have some work to do. But when it’s 100 I’m then stuck with the, “What’s my next step?” Like, running Lighthouse step one: make sure those things aren’t barking at you. 0:34:44.9 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:34:45.6 John Papa But what do you do after that? 0:34:47.2 Jen Luker After that is when you starting bringing in actually user testers. So previously we were talking about return on investments of adding accessibility features from the viewpoint of someone who wants to add the accessibility demographic, right? The addition of adding those accessibility features actually expands far beyond those with accessibility issues, but also everybody. So, for instance, say that you’re sitting in a really noisy bar and you want to share a video with your friends. You can’t just sit there and play the video and expect them to get everything that’s being said. It’s too loud in the area that you’re in. With either a transcript or subtitles you can actually understand everything that’s going on in the video without having sound. 0:35:39.9 John Papa I’m so glad you brought that up ‘cause that’s something that is near and dear to me on videos. Not just for people who have issues, but it’s also… Just think about the financial side of this, too, and the marketing side. If you want somebody to watch your video and it’s scrolling past them on a screen in a Twitter feed, or Linkedin, or Instagram, or any kind of social media even, or even on the TV. If there’s no sound, if they can see the words sometimes that grabs their attention. 0:36:08.0 And I’ll, gonna share something about myself here, when I watch TV shows, and I love science fiction, things like Game of Thrones for example- 0:36:17.1 Jen Luker (laughs) 0:36:17.5 John Papa I actually put the closed captions on because I can’t tell what the heck name they’re saying. 0:36:21.7 Dan Wahlin I do the same thing. 0:36:23.0 John Papa You know? (laughs) 0:36:23.4 Dan Wahlin Not with Game of Thrones but with other stuff, yeah. 0:36:25.8 John Papa Yeah, I mean if their name was “Dan” I could get it. But when some of these names comes on I’m like, “...” So I love the fact that we… It’s not just for people who can’t understand names like me, but it’s a great thing for videos ‘cause now you’re reading an audience who maybe they don’t understand the slang you’re using, maybe English isn’t their first language. If you’re recording in English. 0:36:46.3 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:36:47.9 John Papa So when I talk with other countries they use the closed captions a lot for trying to figure out, “What did John say?” There’s just so many good ways and good reasons to do it and it’s not hard. 0:36:58.4 Jen Luker Unh-unh (negative). It’s not necessarily hard but it is time consuming. And it can be a little bit costly, depending on whether you do it yourself or whether you’re hiring someone to- 0:37:08.6 John Papa Yes. 0:37:09.2 Jen Luker Provide those transcriptions for you. 0:37:11.3 John Papa There are some free ones. Like if you go to YouTube and you upload it they give you one free translation, but then you run the risk of something like, my good buddy, Asim Hussain, his name is spelled A-S-I-M. 0:37:22.9 Jen Luker Mm-hmm (affirmative). 0:37:23.4 John Papa And when he recorded one of the videos it came out on the closed captioning as “Hello, everyone. My name is Awesome Hussein.” 0:37:29.3 Jen Luker (laughs) 0:37:30.2 ALL (laughing) 0:37:31.1 Dan Wahlin We should call him that now, when I see him. 0:37:32.6 John Papa Yes! So that’s now his nickname. (laughs) 0:37:34.6 Jen Luker That’s awesome. Ha ha! 0:37:35.9 John Papa Literally! 0:37:38.2 Jen Luker Oh, goodness. Yeah, YouTube is… I’m so proud of YouTube for at least trying to add like, automated transcriptions to all of the videos that are available. So there is a button you can click on that will show just a real time transcription as it’s developed. Unfortunately our ability to write machine learning that can fully understand different accents, different dialects, different contexts is still lagging behind how quickly communication and language evolves. So it’s not the best. It’s like trying to use Google Translate and it can be difficult. 0:38:23.3 Dan Wahlin Yeah, it’s- I started playing with, so Azure has it, and Amazon has had it though, for quite a while, has a few more voices at this point on AWS, but they have a service on some of my, I guess you could say wordier posts, meaning that there’s not as much code ‘cause it’s hard to convert. 0:38:43.0 This is kinda opposite of what we’re talking about, this is text-to-speech, and I said, you know, it doesn’t really cost me. I mean, it’s negligible, almost free it’s so minimally used by people and looking at the stats, but it’s you know, Amazon Polly and then Azure… I don’t remember what it’s called. what’s it called, John? They have their text-to-speech service. Do you know off the top of your head? I don’t think I remember the name. It’s probably part of the cognitive speech APIs I’m guessing. 0:39:12.9 But anyway it'll, you know, take your text and convert it into like, an mp3. So I’ve been doing that recently on just some of my more text based posts. ‘Case like I said, it’s hard to get context out of code, of course. But, you know, I like having it. I look at the stats. There’s not a ton of usage, per se. Although somebody could download it, almost like a podcast, but what I like about it is somebody that, you know, was vision impaired in some way, and I swear the older I get I’m starting to fall into that category anyway where I’d almost rather listen to it, you know, than read it. 0:39:49.4 But there’s a lot of different things out there like that that I think as technology progresses, you know, hopefully as you’ve mentioned, Jen, the YouTube closed captioning-type thing just keeps getting better and better. Text to speech is definitely getting pretty awesome. The voice I picked I’m just amazed with how high the quality is. So, a lot of cool stuff out there for this. 0:40:08.2 John Papa Yeah, that is called Azure’s text-to-speech cognitive services is the piece of it. You’re right it’s Amazon Polly. I put both those links in the show notes for everybody. 0:40:16.3 Jen Luker I think the biggest take away from all of this is that accessibility isn’t just for the people with disabilities. It literally is for everyone and it’s not just for old people or young people or people suffering from a specific disability. It’s also for people that have temporary or circumstantial disabilities. It’s for people that have you know, issues today, but no issues tomorrow. Or maybe they’re watching a TV show that has really loud explosions and really quiet text and your baby’s sleeping- 0:40:52.9 John Papa Yeah, what’s up with that anyway? 0:40:53.8 Jen Luker (laughs) Right? That’s why I use a screen… You know, that’s why I use subtitles. But, you know, it’s just the more you step back and look at it the more you realize that accessibility isn’t just keyboard tabbing and it’s not just a screen reader. It’s being able to allow people to interact with your content no matter who they are, or where they are, or what they are; and that has a real power. 0:41:22.9 That has the ability to take people that, I mean, arguably needs to be the ones that have the work flexibility in order to support themselves, and to be able to have the insurance to take care of their medical issues, and give them a job that gives them that freedom. I mean we, as devs, have a huge amount of freedom. We can work from anywhere as long as we’ve got an internet connection and a laptop. And as long as we’re working towards making the entire web accessible, whether that’s Game of Thrones, or that’s our technological documentation it really opens up the world to people that would not have otherwise had the opportunity to be able to make the best of it. 0:42:10.9 Dan Wahlin Absolutely. I think that’s, you know, that’s just a win all around for everyone. To kind of tag on that again, real quick… So I was at Dick’s Sporting Goods, which if you’re in the United States listening to this you’ll probably know who that is, they’re a pretty big sporting goods company. But I was out there doing some angular training and we were talking briefly- Jen, that’s why I asked more about the ARIA labels ‘cause that’s came up. And they actually have a full-time, at least one person maybe more but at least one I know full-time for accessibility. 0:42:41.0 So I think kind of challenge we might be able to issue all of us as devs is, if your company’s currently not doing that, there are companies that are. Now, you know, some of them I think are doing it purely out of what you just said, Jen. They just want to make it more accessible to everybody. Some of them probably it’s financial and okay, I think it’s a win either way, whatever they choose. 0:43:02.6 John Papa Sure. 0:43:03.1 Dan Wahlin But I think that’s a challenge we could all probably take on to try to be a little more educated on that and use it more. 0:43:09.6 John Papa there’s even little things you can do that may not fall under the exact category but how many times have you been to a website where there’s so much text jammed onto a screen you can’t actually discern what you’re supposed to be looking at? You know, so just making sites easier to read and having a better user experience. I find user experience and accessibility really flow together, personally. And when you’ve got one and the other together it’s like the beauty of the web. When you have neither of those that’s like when you go back to one of those 1996 websites where you can't figure out what’s going on. 0:43:42.2 Jen Luker (laughs) It’s absolutely true. It’s definitely a situation where making it fantastic for one group of people ends up helping everyone. So I mean, even if you do one thing today, if you add one more ALT tag, or you convert one more div to a button, or one button to a link, you know? That’s one more thing that’s going to be useable. You don’t have to flip the switch and have your entire website accessible tomorrow, but you can make one step today. 0:44:13.9 John Papa Awesome. Jen, we would like to wrap up this show with a section we call “Someone to Follow” where we talk about somebody who may be well known, or may not in the industry who we just want people to take a closer look at. And I’ll kick things off. Today, and I seem to be picking names that I can’t pronounce recently, so I apologize Gleb, but the person I want to point out is Gleb Bahmutov, and it’s… I’ll put his Twitter link up here on the page. He is one of the JavaScript ninjas behind the tool called cyprus.io which, Dan you did a show with us on that a couple of weeks or months ago. 0:44:47.6 Dan Wahlin I love it. Yeah. 0:44:49.1 John Papa Gleb is amazing. I’ve talked with him a few times on, he’s another Twitter friend, and the reason I wanted to call him out was I was working with cyprus.io, ‘cause I switched, Dan convinced me to switch. And I absolutely loved it and I was trying to solve some problems with it and I resent it to him on Twitter and he helped me get over those issues right away. And I just really love how open and friendly he was and he’s just done some amazing technology products that he’s had on the web over the years and cyprus io is just the recent one of those. Dan, do you have somebody to follow? 0:45:20.4 Dan Wahlin Yeah. So I had the chance to have dinner recently with one of my buddies, Rick Strahl. You know Rick, John. 0:45:27.6 John Papa Oh, yeah. 0:45:28.3 Dan Wahlin And for those that don’t know Rick he’s like, world champion I think. He windsurfs a lot (laughs). But Rick’s just a all-around very cool guy and very knowledgeable about frontend and backend type technologies, so he’s @Rick- We’ll put it in the show notes, but @RickStrahl on Twitter. 0:45:51.7 John Papa And Jen, do you have someone to follow? 0:45:53.1 Jen Luker I do. So there’s someone that I’ve been seeing a lot in the conference circuit this year. His name is Tejas Kumar. He is one of the nicest, most upbeat, most enthusiastic, and kindest, and most patient people you will ever meet in your entire life. He has more energy than my child and he’s basically the person who touts love and tolerance and kindness throughout Twitter. It’s a definite highlight in my feed. So I will definitely include his link in the show notes as well. But he’s my person to follow. 0:46:34.2 John Papa Actually I think I met Tejas last week at dotJS in Paris. Super nice guy. I hadn’t met him before but he was just a Twitter friend, so. It’s so nice when you actually meet people in person who you meet on the internet. (laughs) 0:46:46.0Jen Luker Absolutely. 0:46:47.1John Papa Well hey, Jen, it was great having you on here and thank you for coming on and talking to us about accessibility and for everybody who’s listening, thanks for listening to this show. We’re putting a bunch of links in the show notes so go check those out and please listen to us every Tuesday morning. 0:47:03.3 Jen Luker Thank you. (Exit Music) 0:47:08.4 Voiceover Thanks for listening to Real Talk JavaScript. This show and all of our shows are available at www.RealTalkJS.com with links and notes. John and Ward would love to hear what you think, especially about potential guests and topics for future shows. Follow and send them a message on Twitter @RealTalkJS.

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Panel: AJ O’Neal Joe Eames Jesse Sanders Special Guest: Sean Hunter In this episode, the panel talks with Sean Hunter who is a software developer, speaker, rock climber, and author of “Aurelia in Action” published by Manning Publications! Today, the panelists and Sean talk about Aurelia and other frameworks. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:38 – Joe: Hello! Our panelists are AJ, Jesse, myself, and our special guest is Sean Hunter (from Australia)! What have you been doing with your life and what is your favorite movie? 1:45 – Guest talks about Vegemite! 2:20 – Guest: I was in the UK and started using Aurelia, which I will talk about today. I have done some talks throughout UK about Aurelia. Also, the past year moved back to Australia had a baby son and it’s been a busy year. Writing a book and being a new parent has been hard. 3:22 – Panel: Tell us the history of Aurelia, please? 3:31 – Panel: Is it like jQuery, React, Vue or what? 3:44 – Guest: Elevator pitch – Aurelia is a single-page app framework! It’s most similar to Vue out of those frameworks; also, similarities to Ember.js. 4:30 – Guest goes into detail about Aurelia. 6:15 – Panel: It sounds like convention over configuration. 6:42 – Guest: Yes that is correct. 7:21 – Panel: Sounds like there is a build-step to it. 7:39 – Guest: There is a build-step you are correct. You will use Webpack in the background. 9:57 – The guest talks about data binding among other things. 10:30 – Guest: You will have your app component and other levels, too. 10:37 – Panel: I am new to Aurelia and so I’m fresh to this. Why Aurelia over the other frameworks? Is there a CLI to help? 11:29 – Guest: Let me start with WHY Aurelia and not the other frameworks. The style that you are using when building the applications is important for your needs. In terms of bundling there is a CUI and that is a way that I prefer to start my projects. Do you want to use CSS or Webpack or...? It’s almost a wizard process! You guys have any questions about the CLI? 14:43 – Panel: Thanks! I was wondering what is actually occurring there? 15:25 – Guest: Good question. Basically it’s that Aurelia has some built-in conventions. Looking at the convention tells Aurelia to pick the Vue model by name. If I need to tell the framework more information then... 17:46 – Panel: I think that for people who are familiar with one or more framework then where on that spectrum would Aurelia fall? 18:20 – Guest: It’s not that opinionated as Ember.js. 19:09 – Panel: Talking about being opinionated – what are some good examples of the choices that you have and how that leads you down a certain path? Any more examples that you can give us?  19:38 – Guest: The main conventions are what I’ve talked about already. I can’t think of more conventions off the top of my head. There are more examples in my book. 20:02 – Panel: Your book? 20:10 – Guest: Yep. 20:13 – Panel. 20:20 – Guest.  21:58 – Panel: Why would I NOT pick Aurelia? 22:19 – Guest: If you are from a React world and you like having things contained in a single-file then Aurelia would fight you. If you want a big company backing then Aurelia isn’t for you. The guest goes into more reasons why or why not one would or wouldn’t want to use Aurelia. 24:24 – Panel: I think the best sell point is the downplay! 24:34 – Guest: Good point. What does the roadmap look like for Aurelia’s team? 25:00 – Guest: Typically, what happens in the Aurelia framework is that data binding (or router) gets pushed by the core team. They are the ones that produce the roadmap and look forward to the framework. The core team is working on the NEXT version of the framework, which is lighter, easier to use, and additional features. It’s proposed to be out for release next year. 26:36 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:34 – Panel: I am going to take down the CLI down and see what it does. I am looking at it and seeing how to teach someone to use it. I am using AU, new command, and it says no Aurelia found. I am stuck. 28:06 – Guest: What you would do is specify the project name that you are trying to create and that should create it for you.  28:40 – Panel. 28:45 – Panel. 28:50 – Panel: Stand up on your desk and say: does anyone know anything about computers?! 29:05 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 29:13 – Panel: What frameworks have you used in the past? 29:17 – Guest: I was using single-paged apps back in 2010. 31:10 – Panel: Tell us about the performance of Aurelia? 31:17 – Guest: I was looking at the benchmarks all the time. Last time I looked the performance was comparable. Performances can me measured in a number of different of ways. The guest talks about a dashboard screen that 20 charts or something like that. He didn’t notice any delays getting to the client. 33:29 – Panel: I heard you say the word “observables.” 33:39 – Guest answers the question. 35:30 – Guest: I am not a Redux expert, so I really can’t say. It has similar actions like Redux but the differences I really can’t say. 36:11 – Panel: We really want experts in everything! (Laughs.) 36:25 – Panelist talks about a colleagues’ talk at a conference. He says that he things are doing too much with SPAs. They have their place but we are trying to bundle 8-9 different applications but instead look at them as... What are your thoughts of having multiple SPAs? 37:17 – Guest. 39:08 – Guest: I wonder what your opinions are? What about the splitting approach? 39:22 – Panel: I haven’t looked at it, yet. I am curious, though. I have been developing in GO lately. 40:20 – Guest: I think people can go too far and making it too complex. You don’t want to make the code that complex. 40:45 – Panel: Yeah when the code is “clean” but difficult to discover that’s not good. 41:15 – Guest: I agree when you start repeating yourself then it makes it more difficult. 41:35 – Panel: Chris and I are anti-framework. We prefer to start from a fresh palette and see if a framework can fit into that fresh palette. When you start with a certain framework you are starting with certain configurations set-in-place.  42:48 – Joe: I like my frameworks and I think you are crazy! 43:05 – Panel. 43:11 – Joe: I have a love affair with all frameworks. 43:19 – Panel: I think I am somewhere in the middle. 43:49 – Panel: I don’t think frameworks are all bad but I want to say that it’s smart to not make it too complex upfront. Learn and grow. 44:28 – Guest: I think a good example of that is jQuery, right? 45:10 – Panelist talks about C++, jQuery, among other things. 45:34 – Guest: Frameworks kind of push the limits. 46:08 – Panelist talks about JavaScript, frameworks, and others. 47:04 – Panel: It seems simple to setup routes – anything to help with the lazy way to setup? 47:35 – Guest answers question. 48:37 – Panel: How do we manage complexity and how does messaging work between components? 48:54 – Guest: The simple scenario is that you can follow a simple pattern, which is (came out of Ember community) and that is...Data Down & Actions Up! 50:45 – Guest mentions that Aurelia website! 51:00 – Panel: That sounds great! Sounds like the pattern can be plugged in easily into Aurelia. 51:17 – Picks! 51:20 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Redux Webpack Elixir Ember.js Vue GO jQuery Node.js Puppeteer Cypress Utah JS 2018 – Justin McMurdie’s Talk Aurelia Sean Hunter’s Book! Sean Hunter’s Twitter Sean Hunter’s Website Sean Hunter’s GitHub Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Joe React Conf. Endless Quest AJ Extreme Ownership GO Language Harry’s and Flamingo Jesse Sanders The Miracle Morning React Hooks Apple Products Sean Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work Discount Code for Aurelia in Action -  hunterpc (40% off Aurelia in Action, all formats) Apple Watch

Christina is a developer at Google and speaker at React Conf 2018. Chantastic asks her about her cloud development process. They talk about changing careers, building brains, cheating imposter syndrome, speaking at conferences, and all the services you'll need to create your next app with with less software and fewer servers.

I first talked with Nicole Chung over Twitter while I was at React Conf 2017 where she presented How to React in the Slow Lane. We brought her on the show to discuss progressive web apps using React, the differences between PWAs and React Native, and much more!

I first talked with Nicole Chung over Twitter while I was at React Conf 2017 where she presented How to React in the Slow Lane. We brought her on the show to discuss progressive web apps using React, the differences between PWAs and React Native, and much more!

Jamison Dance: @jergason | Blog | GitHub | Fivestack | Soft Skills Engineering Podcast | React Rally Show Notes: 00:58 - The Elm Programming Language 01:36 - Who should try Elm? What is the attraction? 03:09 - Scaling an App Across a Team; Conventions 06:19 - Routing 07:48 - Writing Tests 09:38 - Jumping Into Elm from a Component-based Framework 12:20 - Tooling 17:28 - Productivity 19:21 - The Elm Community 25:13 - Could Elm Replace JavaScript? 28:28 - Lessons Learned from Elm to Write Better JavaScript 33:45 - The Elm Syntax 35:49 - Checking Out New Languages and Communities 37:31 - Data Modeling Resources: Elm Packages elm-format Evan Czaplicki: Let's Be Mainstream! User-focused Design in Elm The Elm Guide Elm on Slack The Elm Tutorial Jamison Dance: Rethinking All Practices: Building Applications in Elm @ React.js Conf 2016 Transcript: ALEX: Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 49. I am your host, Alex Ford, developer at The Frontside. With me as well is Chris Freeman. Chris, do you want to introduce yourself? CHRIS: Hi, everybody. I'm Chris. I'm also a developer at The Frontside. ALEX: We have a really special guest for today. I'm really excited. Jamison Dance is with us. JAMISON: Hello. ALEX: Jamison runs Fivestack Software Consulting Company, hosts Soft Skills Engineering Podcast, organizes React Rally Conf, and spells 'array.length' incorrectly sometimes. Is this true? JAMISON: It is true, yeah. I think I have a special ESLint plugin to yell at me now when I do that or something. But that has caused some pain in my life. CHRIS: Oh, that was very brave. Thank you. ALEX: We're going to be talking Elm today and writing better JavaScript with Elm. This is really exciting for me. I've gotten the chance to dive into the Elm tutorial a little bit, which is an absolutely beautiful tutorial if you haven't checked it out yet. JAMISON: Yeah, Elm is a programming language that runs in the browser and compiles down to JavaScript. It's a pure statically-typed programming language, which if that doesn't mean anything to you, don't worry. The take away for you is that Elm tries really hard to make it easy to write programs that don't crash and are easier to refactor and easier to work on and maintain, basically. CHRIS: And Elm is a language in of itself but it is pretty specifically intended for front-end development. Is that correct? JAMISON: Right now, there are some long term plans, but yeah. For now, it's front-end for building UIs and applications in the browser. ALEX: I heard about Elm. When should I check it out? Who do you see jumping into this language? JAMISON: I think it's aimed at people that want to build robust applications which is so vague, it sounds meaningless. Maybe I talk about what attracted me to it. The two things where I was interested in functional programming -- that's kind of like the technical language wonk, like geeky side of it. But the other side is I've worked for a while in some fairly large JavaScript applications and I've seen the nightmares that I can create for myself In just building something that works and is just really hard to work on. So the idea of a language that's focused on keeping your productivity high as the application skills and as the team skills was really attractive to me. Like the bio says, if I spell array.length wrong, sometimes I catch it, sometimes I don't, then my program breaks. Elm has a compiler that runs on all your code and basically, make sure that your code cannot crash. You could still have bugs and you can still just make your code do the wrong thing but it helps eliminate whole categories of errors. It just makes them impossible to create in Elm. If you're interested in functional programming or if you're interested in just building stuff that is easy to work with, like this kind of this curve of productivity over time where some environments and some languages start out really high, it's really easy to build something fast at the beginning and then maintaining it is just really hard so the productivity drops over time. Elm is trying to kind of flatten that out so your productivity stays high throughout the lifetime of your application. CHRIS: I actually have a question about that. I'm planning on bringing this up later but you gave me such a good segue that I feel compelled. You mentioned that one of the things that is nice about Elm-type system is that it helps scale an app, especially when it comes to a team. My experience there are kind of true different facets to what scaling an app across a team looks like. One is the categories of bugs that something like [inaudible] compiler helps you catch. But the other is, and this is totally coming from the fact that I use Ember every single day, that conventions also help scale across a team. I'm curious like what I've looked at with Elm, it looks like they definitely have the type system there and error messages there to help quite a bit. But I haven't seen conventions arising yet in terms of a lot of things, about how you build a front-end application. I'm curious, is it that those conventions are there and just haven't found them yet or they're still very much in development? Or is that not even really a goal for Elm in the same way that it might be nothing like Ember or Angular. JAMISON: You mentioned first the kinds of bugs that the compiler will help you catch. I want to talk about that really quickly. If people aren't familiar with what a compiler or type system will do at build time, it checks all of your code to make sure that all of the variables and inputs and outputs from functions match up. So you say this function takes in an 'int' and returns a string and it will go find everywhere that calls that function and make sure that they're always passing in an 'int' and return it, so that it always return a string. It kind of does that throughout the whole flow of the program. It eliminates those kind of areas where you just get the interface wrong. The program is huge. You don't remember all the inputs to a function so you just like passing an object when it expects a string or something and then later on it will explode. You don't get those errors with Elm which is the first kind of thing you're talking about. You mentioned that conventions and I'm not on the Elm core team or whatever. I don't have any special insight but my experience is Elm very much wants to create strong conventions around how you build applications. The Elm architecture is kind of a way to build front-end applications that is basically baked into the language. There isn't like a UI framework for Elm. It is Elm. That to me is a huge point on the strong convention side. There isn't like an Elm fatigue because there isn't a choice between a hundred different UI frameworks in Elm. Some patterns around how you build apps this small, I think are still being established but I think there are strong conventions already and the trend of the Elm community is towards picking strong conventions. You'll see Evan, the creator of the language, He'll talk about how he wants to have one really good library instead of 15 overlapping libraries of varying quality to solve the same problem. Elm has conventions already. The places where it doesn't have strong conventions are I think places that will get filled in but the goal is to pick up the language and you get everything you need to build an application attached to it that's all kind of figured out for you. CHRIS: It's been interesting you mentioned the thing about it's better to have one good library, rather than 15 libraries of varying quality. I've seen that a little bit in practice. One of the things that I started looking for pretty early on when I was messing with Elm was what client-side routing look like. There are a couple of different routing libraries. But if you look at them, you can see that they're actually kind of this progression, like you can see how they have built on each other and they're kind of like building up the stack of abstractions toward one final solution. It's very interesting because it's not like those other libraries that are still there. If you really wanted to use just a regular URL parser and build your own, you could. But you can also see this development towards something that anyone could take off the shelf and start using. JAMISON: Yeah, and Elm has been around, I think it was 2011 when it first started. But really, Elm as like a popular thing that people hear about and use in production is only a couple of year's old maybe. There are still some things that are evolving like that. I think you're right that they're evolving towards convention instead of, in my mind JavaScript values, the proliferation of tons of different ideas and just wild exploration. Elm seems like it values a little more consensus and aligning the community behind one solution. I think it's happening, if it's not there yet, it'll get there, I guess. ALEX: I have a question about writing test in Elm and how that feels different than writing tests in JavaScript because the way I find myself writing tests right now is I understand the language to be fragile and I understand some frameworks have some fragility because of that language so I find myself writing really strong tests that are easy to break. I imagine that maybe in Elm, that's a little bit different with this very strong convention that you're talking about. JAMISON: Yes, some of it is around not having to be as defensive in your testing. If you wanted to get really, really down in the nitty-gritty in JavaScript, there are just an incredible array of different inputs you would have to test to make sure someone doesn't pass in like [inaudible] to this function where you think it's an array or whatever, like you just don't have to write any of those tests because the compiler catches that. We haven't talked about purity at all and this concept in functional programming where your functions can't cause side effects. They can't just go make a network request or write to disc or console.log like right in the middle. The functions take an input and return an output. You can do that in JavaScript. You can write your functions that way but because that feature is built into the language, it's the only way to write functions in Elm which makes it really easy to test functions because you just pass them stuff and you check what they return. In my experience, that makes them easier to test. You still build UIs and you still make network requests so you still construct some HTML at some point in your program. You can if you want to test that the HTML looks right or that elements have certain classes and stuff. But I guess what I'm saying is the tests feel like they're testing the behavior more than the edge cases when I write tests in them just because the compiler eliminates a bunch of weird edge cases you don't have to worry about. ALEX: Coming from a component-based JavaScript framework, what is going to be my experience jumping into Elm? How is that going to feel different for me? JAMISON: That's a great question. Myself and almost everyone I've seen get started in Elm that comes from something based around components that the instinct is to create components in Elm for everything. You have a select box in Ember or React or whatever and you wrap it in components. You can just reuse it everywhere. In Elm, if you try to do that, you will hate it and think Elm is broken and horrible and just sucks. It's because the Elm architecture comes with, I guess, you could call it boilerplate, there's some work you have to do to build a component that can do IO and respond to events and stuff. That work is... I don't know, maybe like a dozen lines of code. Then there's some work to wire those components up together, that's maybe a couple more lines of code. So if you have like 300 components in your Elm application, you'll have... I don't know, like thousands of lines that just wiring stuff together code which won't really buy you that much because in my experience, using components is an attempt to make things understandable and isolate concerns. You get a lot of that from having peer functions and having a strong a static-type system. In Elm, you end up making a lot wider components, instead of having this deep tree of lots of components nested inside of each other. You'll have a much flatter but wider tree. That took a while to get used to but I think it makes sense for the language now. You can still create reusable things but you focus more on creating reusable functions instead of creating components that are black boxes, that you kind of package up and pass around. You can still do reuse but it's a little bit different than reuse in a component-based framework. This is a thing. I would say, in the last year, there's been a lot more discussion on blogposts and screencasts and stuff on a year ago, a couple of people were talking about it but there weren't really lots of great examples of this and now, I think, even the Elm Guide has some examples of reuse without components. ALEX: Yes. One of my favorite things about component-based JavaScript is because I've learned to test them so well. Even though, sometimes they can turn into a configuration ball, I've been able to make them very reliable, even if they are deeply nested so going away from that scares me. JAMISON: Yeah, it totally scared me. It felt wrong and weird and bad. But now, it doesn't. I don't know, I'm used to it, I guess, and I still write a lot of JavaScript. It's not that hard switching back and forth between those two mental models but I definitely had to develop a different mental model when writing Elm code. CHRIS: I'm interested in talking about some of the tooling. I know Elm has a lot of tooling. They have elm-reactor and they have the compiler. But I think I know that you also do the kind of dip into some of the JavaScript tooling if you are getting into bigger Elm application. You're probably still going to need something like a Webpack or Browserify, I guess. I'm curious what's your experience with that has been? JAMISON: You can definitely just write an Elm application and then compile it into this JavaScript file then drop that in a script tag on your page and it will all work. The complexity can get very low. If you want to do more advanced stuff like talking to JavaScript, You can still do all that without any additional tooling, if you would like. If you have a lot of dependencies in your JavaScript or you have a large JavaScript application or code base that you want to integrate with Elm, then you can use something like Webpack or Browserify. In my experience, it's no more painful than Webpack or Browserify. All the rest of that stuff already is. I don't know, there's an Elm Webpack plugin that will run the Elm compiler and allow you to import your Elm application into JavaScript file and I think there are similar stuff for Browserify and some of the other module bundlers. I don't think there's anything radically new on the Elm side as far as bundling up your application or anything like that. It just kind of works like you expect. The places where, I think Elm tooling is cool in ways that I haven't seen that much in JavaScript are in the Elm package manager. If you are building a package yourself, it has automatic semantic versioning built in so they have a type system. They can detect when your interfaces change automatically. If you try and release a version that you change the interface and you don't bump the version, they will like yell at you because that's a breaking change. There's some cool stuff around that that you get with the language having a static-type system. The debugger is a new thing as of a couple of weeks ago. That's built into the language. You might have seen similar stuff in other frameworks but it's all kind of extra add-ons. In Elm, because it has kind of a framework built into the language, they can also build in a debugger for that framework in the language. You can enable debug mode, pull up an application, click around, do a bunch of stuff, and then it'll record a log of all those actions and you can scroll back through them and jump to any point in that timeline to reload the state of the application to that point. You can export that log to a JSON file and then kind of send that around, have someone load that log in, and it'll get your application back into the same state. It's a really good for creating bug reports. You click some button 15 times and then it breaks -- do that, export the logs, send that to someone else. Instead of having to follow all the steps, they can just load your state and then figure out what's broken about that. I think that there are some tooling advances that are enabled by both the language itself, like the static type system and also the focus on strong conventions and frameworks built into the language. Does that makes sense? CHRIS: Yeah, absolutely. As you were talking, I thought about was that some tooling that you lean a lot on in JavaScript is kind of rendered unnecessary by the error messages in Elm. All of the things that you may bring in an extra tool to catch in JavaScript when in Elm will just tell you when it compiles and it will give you this just unbelievably friendly, informative, and easy to diagnosed error message that tells you like, "This is the exact line where this happened. Maybe you mean to do this instead," because it can make all sorts of inferences about, like what you probably meant to do based on the type signature you gave to a function or something. I could see that going a long way toward making a subset of tools just unnecessary in Elm. JAMISON: Yeah, a lot of tooling around JavaScript has sprung up to address... I don't know, not weaknesses but areas where people have identified JavaScript needs a little help now. If that's passive aggressive enough way to say it. The language is 20 years old. It was created way before people were building giant, million line code bases in it. But Elm is much younger and has the benefit of a lot of history and hindsight. It turns out you can avoid a lot of tools if you eliminate their need. I have had that weird feeling where I'm building a JavaScript project and it feels like I'm flying a 747. There's a thousand switches everywhere. I'm like powering up a bunch of different things. It feels like I'm being really productive because I'm configuring ESLint in Webpack, in Flow, and all these different tools. Then I go to Elm and I just start typing and it feels like I'm less productive but I've just skipped so many steps. It is a different feeling. ALEX: Would you say that maybe you feel so productive in JavaScript because it has such a strong community, with so many examples and so much shared code? Elm being a younger community, and this is strictly an assumption, may not be at that maturity level where you can share code and have that particular level of productivity. JAMISON: Yes. There are definitely third party libraries in Elm. There's probably a few orders of magnitude difference in the community sizes between Elm and JavaScript. There are just way more people writing JavaScript. The likelihood that someone will have ended up at your weird feature that you need for some random program is probably a little higher. There are some numbers differences. In my experience, the people that are really into Elm right now enjoy solving their own problems because it does feel like they're a little bit more of your own problems to solve. It's a tradeoff. I was going to say, if you value 100% focus on building business features, JavaScript might be better but I don't necessarily think that's the case. Using a bunch of third party code comes with a cost and some of that cost is you have to understand the API and some of it is you have to kind of take some responsibility for knowing where it breaks down. In Elm, I think that responsibility is lessened by the language because the API is a lot easier to understand when you can look at the types that the API creates and uses. It's a lot harder for it to just break your stuff. I think you could make the argument that even though there's a giant repository of JavaScript code out there, a lot of it might not be great for your program. But if you're using Elm, the smaller amount of code that is out there already could be easier to use and help you even more productive. ALEX: I would like to try to segue into the Elm community now and what that looks like? What is this Elm community? How do you get involved, say, I'm coming from JavaScript or any language and I love it? Maybe my work doesn't use Elm just yet but how can I contribute? How can I continue to write more Elm code for not just my specific use cases? JAMISON: I think my favorite thing about the Elm community is its focus on friendliness and learnability. I call it 'ruthless focus'. They are aggressively committed to building a language that is easy for people to pick up. If you are coming to Elm for the first time, you're pulling your hair out because it looks totally different from JavaScript. That might not make any sense to you. But a lot of the ideas that Elm has come from other languages like Haskell or ML languages and those languages, I would say, are proudly hard to get into. It's like a badge of honor to learn Haskell and then you like bleed to do it and then you enter this elite club where you got to talk about monoids all day. Elm is like a strong negative reaction against that, like they want this to be a language that people can learn and get some of the benefit. Because there are cool things in languages like Haskell so the goal is to take some of those cool things and other cool things from other places too. But put them in a package that is easy for people to pick up without devoting their life to an arcane branch of mathematics. I think they do a really good job of that. I've done Haskell pretty hard a few times and I'll bounce off it some more. I don't feel confused about Elm at all in anyway. In Elm, it's not like I'm some genius that can pick it up. It's that they have eliminated a lot of complexity and made it friendly and easy to learn. I think that carries over into the community. They're really interested in helping people who are new to functional programming or are new to programming in general. They're also just nice. if there's an Elm Slack channel that you hang out in and like any internet chat channel, sometimes people will get a little testy and in the Elm one, they're so good at defusing situations, calming people down, like apologizing, and like being human beings. You don't see a lot of rage-y arguments where people say mean things about each other. I've been really impressed with that. I want to talk a little bit more about what the community is like and then maybe talk about how to get into it, if that's okay. I would say the community is -- I know, it's evenly split but it seems fairly evenly split between people coming from JavaScript's who don't have any functional programming experience and people coming from functional programming who don't have any UI experience. It's interesting seeing those two very different groups come together and they're both attracted to Elm for different reasons and they kind of pull it a little bit in different ways. But it makes an interesting group of people to be around because you learn a lot of cool UI stuff, a lot of cool functional programming stuff. ALEX: Sounds like a recipe for success, really. JAMISON: Yeah. I think if they can make functional programming not have the snootiness that it has sometimes in genders and people, then I think functional programming is great technically. I think the culture around it can be just obnoxious. So I think if Elm can take the good things without the bad things, that's amazing and that's kind of what it's trying to do. As far as getting into the Elm community, are you talking about writing open source or contributing to open source or just where they hang out? ALEX: Yeah, I was talking about contributing to open source but maybe Elm is just a better community for a certain style of contribution and maybe that looks like a blogpost and a coding example of how to do something yourself. JAMISON: Like any new technology, there are definitely in the kind of evangelism phase. If you do write a blogpost that says nice things about Elm, there's like a horde of people that will swarm all over it because they like people to say nice things about Elm. There's a bunch of people like writing books, doing screencast, speaking on it, introducing people to it, and that's well received very well. I think there's at least one podcast on Elm already. So all that to say that I think the community receives kind of education and I guess, you can call it evangelism stuff very well and they're excited about that. If you are interested in contributing to open source, you can actually go to Package.Elm-Lang.org and you can see all of the Elm third party libraries and they all have these GitHub for the backing of its package manager. They all have source links right there. You can just find any random library and get to its source. I think the community is pretty open to contributions from people. If you want to see Elm source code and contribute to it, they're very open to that. This is kind of a culture shock to me coming from other communities where you can't just like show up, submit a patch to Elm core, and then have a discussion, and get it accepted or rejected. They're not super open to direct code level contributions. They would prefer more use case feedback, discussion, and suggestions. Then the core team will take all these feedback in, think about it, come up with a plan, and then implement it, instead of take a lot of little patches from people. Some of the core libraries are a little bit harder to directly contribute code to but they are very open. If you try and use it, you run into something that doesn't work the way you expected and you can create a small example that demonstrates that. They're super open to discussions about that to influence the direction of the API. CHRIS: I think over the course of JavaScript and front-end development, there has been kind of waves of abstraction over JavaScript. There were just libraries and there were things like backbone and then it kind of moved into doing something like CoffeeScript or TypeScript and a couple others where the idea is -- ALEX: Good old Objective-J. CHRIS: Yeah, exactly. You might be transpiling down a JavaScript but there are still very much a clear link between something like CoffeeScript and JavaScript. Elm seems like it is one of a new batch of approaches where we're actually going to just sidestep JavaScript almost entirely. Like it is going to be like JVM bytecode or a browser and we're going to build an entirely new language on top of that. I know there's also a bit like ClojureScript, Scala.js, and PureScript and I'm curious, do you think that is going to be a continuing trend that front-end development is going to land on a mainstream solution that might not actually be JavaScript at all? Or do you see it as eventually circling back and pulling a lot of these features into JavaScript itself? JAMISON: I don't think that front-end development will be Elm in like five years or whatever. I don't think it's going to replace JavaScript at all. I think it might definitely influence tooling libraries or the language itself. The Elm architecture looks a lot like Redux because the Redux author read Elm and they're like, that's cool and then they wrote it in JavaScript. There are other places where like time-travelling debugging. I believe the JavaScript thing came from the Elm time-travelling debugger as well. There are cases where it has influenced JavaScript's already and I think that will continue to happen. Flow is a gradual-type system. You can lay it on top of JavaScript and they have done a lot of work on their error messages influenced by Elm. It's super cool to see all those influences back into the JavaScript community as a whole. I think there are classes of people who are more interested in doing some sprinkling of JavaScript on to pages. They might not even be like programmers really. They're kind of like designers who do a little bit of coding and I don't know if Elm makes sense for that kind of role where you just need to add a little bit of interaction. You can do that but it doesn't seem like a thing that group would focus on. It's just really hard to change the world. I write a lot of JavaScript so I'm bias but it feels like it's the most popular language in the world and being the most popular Language in the world is not a thing that's easily overthrown. But I think it will grow, like programming will look more like Elm does just in general in the future and I think JavaScript will as well. But I also think Elm will continue to grow. There's a lot of excitement about it and there's not a ton of people bouncing hard off of it. There's some people they're looking at it and they're like, "Eh, not yet." Some people just look at it and hate it. But from people that use it, I don't see a lot of those people dropping out. I've seen most of them sticking around. I think the trend is definitely -- Elm will grow. But I don't know if that will take over the world. ALEX: Then what lessons are developers bringing back to say and to write better JavaScript? JAMISON: I think a lot of people are learning about types and data modeling. If you learn programming through JavaScript, the idea that there's this defined shape that your data has and some tool will help you make sure that your data always looks like that is kind of like strange and foreign. I think a lot of people are learning that there's value in that. If you grew up in the MongoDB / Angular world like everything is schema-less, you just kind of slam some JavaScript objects everywhere, it all works, then it breaks, and you don't know why and you need to track it down. But I think seeing the value and thinking a little bit more clearly about what your data looks like and then forcing that through tooling is one lesson. That is taking a little bit more root in JavaScript. All the stuff around functional programming in JavaScript is like achieved buzzword status by now. But there is definitely still some education happening around how it's easier to test peer functions, how they're easier to understand and reuse, and how it's good to write them. I think Elm will continue to push that. Some of it though is there are some ideas you can take from Elm but it's just so much easier to use them to their fullest potential in a language and environment built around those ideas. You can kind of like cram a type system on to JavaScript. It's still really easy to get around and it does not model side effects at all. The elm type system modeled side effects so it helps you reason about where my program can talk to a network, where it can do things that are going to take a while to come back, and kind of sandbox those things into a place where you expect them, instead of have them sprinkled all over your program. CHRIS: I definitely feel that uncanny valley of trying to bring FP -- functional programming -- things back into JavaScript when it comes to pattern matching. That's something that in Elm or Elixir or any number of more functional languages. Pattern matching enables a lot of these higher level patterns that don't always translate super great back to JavaScript land. JAMISON: Yeah, the uncanny valley is a great way to put it. There are a lot of things that you can do that will lead to better JavaScript. But you always have to take the environment that you're working in into consideration. There are just some things you can't do or some things that are going to be more pain than they're worth to do. On the other hand, it is kind of nice to just type console.log wherever you want or type like '$.getJSON' or whatever. The added security that Elm brings comes at a cost of locking you down a little bit and that can be a little frustrating to people sometimes. But I think the payoff is worth it. ALEX: A side story. About six months ago, I tried to get into the Haskell programming book. That's currently being worked on. That's because I want to learn some functional programming lessons, maybe bring them back into my JavaScript, or just learn something new. It's useful to learn a new language and bring it back to your work. Of this 1300 page book, I got just past Chapter 2 and I was in a Haskell book club like everybody held each other accountable to finish this book. I did not make it. I could not figure out how to bring any of these lessons back into my code which is what I wanted to do here. Elm takes that functional programming concept and says, "We're applying it to UI right away." There's no, "How do I apply this? How do I side step this?" No, you're doing it immediately. Really, you're getting me excited to jump back into this tutorial and learn it and check out the community, just to be able to bring this back to my day to day and bring those lessons and do it. JAMISON: Yeah, the first time I tried to learn Haskell, I learned that I could sort an array of integers in memory and that was it. That was as far as my Haskell skills took me so I definitely feel you there. In Haskell, they'll tell you it's a research language so they have a lot of reasons why it kind of works the way it does and learning it takes the pathway it does. Elm is definitely not a research language. It's trying to be incredibly pragmatic so you build UIs. In the guide, that's how they teach you the language. It's the stuff you normally build. Thank you for bringing that up. I think, it's a thing that they focus on. I'm glad you picked it out. ALEX: Yeah, at the learning curve is the syntax but you're still solving those same problems. If you're coming from UI, you already have that context. That is probably the majority of the hard work -- it's solving problems that are meaningful to you. JAMISON: Yeah, for me the syntax, I had learned enough Haskell that the syntax wasn't hard -- how to make HTTP requests and do site-affecting things like that. It was the hang up for me but Elm, there is a way to do it and they show you and that's how you do everything and it all works the same way and it's fairly easy to understand. I don't want to call it easy because that makes people that struggle to feel that but they put a lot of work into making that both robust so it won't break your program and also learnable. CHRIS: One thing I would love to mention about the syntax, I have learned a number of languages, I guess and the Elm syntax was definitely one that threw me the most and it put me off for, I guess it wasn't so much just the syntax, it was the syntax combined with how people do things that I would call more like style choices. JAMISON: The formatting? CHRIS: Yeah, Elm formats things in weird ways. Except that there is a tool called 'elm-format'. Once I've discovered that it has a really great editor integration for a lot of editors, it effectively remove that problem because I discovered that I can essentially write garbage basically in my editor and I can say that anything will make it look beautiful. It's fantastic. It removes such a big barrier for me when I was trying to learn it. JAMISON: Yeah, elm-format, there were some great debates about it while it was being created but now that it exists, it's awesome. Speaking a little bit more of tooling, Elm comes out with new releases of the language with some backwards and compatible changes. But along with that, they release a tool to upgrade your Elm code automatically. It's not perfect and it won't run on 100%. It won't fix everything but with most projects, it fixes everything. Again, the benefit of having such a strict language is there's tools that will just upgrade all your stuff for you. That's pretty awesome. It lowers the cost of evolving the language because they can keep adding new things and changing things without just leaving the community in the dust like we've seen in some other stuff. That's kind of an Ember-ish thing, I guess. Ember has the whole stability... What is it? Something without stagnation? Stability without stagnation? CHRIS: Stability without stagnation. JAMISON: Where you just get all these free upgrades that are really easy to opt into and Elm has that same philosophy. ALEX: What made you decide to check out Elm, to check out this community? Do you like to jump into new languages, new communities, and poke around and see what sticks? Or is there something that attracted you to Elm in particular. JAMISON: Yes to both of those. I do poke around in a lot of new languages. I have a good friend, Sean Hess who's really into functional programming and he's a Haskell true believer. I am not but he is, so he teaches me stuff by Haskell. I think, he told me about it. I might be misremembering though. It might have been just some random blogpost or podcast somebody did a few years ago. But I was already excited about new languages and functional programming and I had tried to learn Haskell and bounced off so the idea of a functional programming language that takes some good ideas from Haskell, that runs in the browser that's new. It was like all the shiny things that I look for altogether in one thing. I tried it and I liked it. I, also was really impressed by Evan Czaplicki, He's the creator of Elm. His philosophy around creating a language and the goals he wanted to accomplish with it. There's a really good talk he gave and called 'Let's be mainstream' which talks about some of the stuff we talked about around if functional programming is pure statically-typed functional programming is so amazing and it has all these people that love it and swear it's the only way to write software, why no one does it? Why the number of people use it is so small? His thesis is basically because the languages that do this are kind of user hostile so he's trying to make it a user friendly, the one that takes all those ideas. I just really liked that philosophy. CHRIS: I want to go back to something that you mentioned a little bit ago and that was data modeling because that is definitely something that I noticed being extremely helpful, any time I'm using a statically-typed language. It is very much something that I brought with me back to JavaScript. But I was wondering, Maybe you could talk a little bit more in depth about what data modeling really means in terms of Elm, the type system, the record type, and that kind of stuff. JAMISON: Yeah, if you've worked with statically-typed languages like Java or C++ or something, you might have an idea of things like classes as a way to model data where you create a class and you say it has all these fields on it. I think, in the Elm type system, I'm going to say it's a lot better than those languages because it has a lot less ceremony and it is a lot more powerful. Elm has type inference which means you don't have to declare the type of everything. It can just figure it out from a lot of places. That's the thing that makes your code a lot friendlier to write. To model data in Elm, there are two main ways to do that. One is with these record types that you mentioned, Chris. You basically declare an object that has a certain shape like I'll make a type called 'user' and it has a user ID and a hash password and... I don't know, a list of my favorite cats or whatever. Then you can just refer to that user type in function arguments or in return types or anything like that. In Elm, because you created that type, it knows that these are all the fields it has. If you try to access a field that's not on there, it'll yell at you because you're doing something that won't work. Because you have to think through all of the different fields that are on your types, it forces you to do a little bit more. It's kind of like the other side of TDD instead of writing test first. You have to think about your data first. You could call it type-driven development, I guess. CHRIS: That's awesome. JAMISON: In my experience, that's helpful. In the same way, TDD is, right? It helps you to do a little bit of design first. Think about how you're going to interact with the program in some way. Instead of writing tests, you're thinking what data do I need here. They also have these things that you could call them -- there are a bunch of different names for them: algebraic data types, I guess. Some people call them tagged unions. They're kind of like enums where you say this type can take any of these finite list of values. But instead of an enum being like an integer, like it is in some languages with a fancy name wrapped around it, the enum types can contain other value. You can say... what's a good example for this? You could say a user is either an authenticated user with a user record inside it or an unauthenticated user. Then when you're using that type in your program, you check, "Is this user type the authenticated user?" Then, if so it has this user field inside of it that you can pluck out and use. Or, "Is it an unauthenticated user?" Those two different things, the super enums, the algebraic data types plus the record types are really powerful for modeling what data looks like in the real world. I haven't run into that many issues where it's been hard to do something I want to do with just those two concepts. Type systems are hard to explain over the air but hopefully, that helped a little bit. ALEX: I thought that was great. CHRIS: I think a good example of the algebraic data type thing is looking at messages in Elm versus actions in Redux. If our listeners are familiar with those, they are very, very, very similar at a high level. But in Redux, you just have string then you do a switch statement or something and you match on some strings. You hope that you synced everything up correctly. JAMISON: Yeah, you say, "This action has a message and then has a payload that looks like this." See if it match against the message and then hope that the payload somebody sent actually looks like you expect it to look. CHRIS: Yeah, whereas in Elm, you can actually say, "My message type is a union of all of these different things," and now, Elm knows exactly what you're saying and you can't accidentally send the wrong payload to the wrong update function or something. It's one of the cases where I found that there's a very, very clear similarity in JavaScript and it highlights, I think a lot of the nice features that Elm brings to that equation. JAMISON: Yeah and there's even more strictness around that, like you have to handle every message type in Elm. So if you say, "This function takes in a message and does something with it," and then you check against what kind of message it is, you have to check every case or Elm won't compile because they don't want you to just blindly miss something, I guess. But in Redux, you could just happily forget a thing in your case statement and then you send a message and it doesn't do anything and then you have to kind of trace through it and debug why that's happening. There's just more helpful stability stuff built in. CHRIS: Cool. I am so incredibly happy with how this podcast went. I'm just excited to start coding and start getting into Elm. I think people and developers maybe at an inflection point with JavaScript and just going and checking out something else that they can immediately apply back to their day to day. I think, it's so incredibly valuable and something that I'm going to be looking to explore very certain. JAMISON: The value pitch is pretty strong because everyone that's written JavaScript has just written code that breaks when things get passed around that they don't expect. I do that all the time and Elm makes that impossible. You can break it in other ways but you just eliminate this class of errors that plagues your existence in JavaScript. If you want to experience that life, check out Elm. It's got a lot of other good things too but just writing code that does not crashes is a pretty strong pitch, I think. ALEX: Jamison, are there any resources that you might recommend for someone who wants to get started with Elm? JAMISON: Somebody mentioned the guide a few times. Everyone says that about every language, check out the official tutorial or whatever, and they have wildly varying quality. The Elm guide is the thing that worked a ton on. It's pretty good, I think and geared towards people that have no knowledge of Elm, no knowledge of functional programming stuff. That's a Guide.Elm-lang.org. Then there's a Slack channel. If you just go to Elm-lang.org, it will have links to the Slack channel and there are lots of helpful friendly people there. I think those are the two best resources because with those, you can find all the other stuff. CHRIS: There's also another one that I really like to mention which is the elm tutorial. I think, it's Elm-tutorial.org. I found it to be a really great compliment to the official Elm Guide. I think it walks through a little more in building a full app where the Elm Guide kind of touches on a bunch of different related topics. But they're not necessarily one narrative. The Elm tutorial did a really good job of tying all that together for me. JAMISON: Yeah and this is been around for a long time and has kept it up through the evolution of the language. This is good stuff. ALEX: Jamison, thank you for coming on the Frontside Podcast. We really appreciated talking to you. JAMISON: Thanks for having me. ALEX: If you love Jamison's voice, you should check out his React Conf talk from 2016 also about Elm. It's a wonderful talk. Go check that out as well. JAMISON: Thank you. Can I pitch my other stuff too? Is that kosher? ALEX: You can absolutely pitch it. CHRIS: Soft skills engineering! JAMISON: Yeah, I do a podcast called Soft Skills Engineering with my friend Dave Smith where we talk about all of the non-technical stuff in writing code. It's like you [inaudible], you can submit questions, and we answer them. If you're interested in talking about building software together, you should talk to the Frontside first. But after that, you can find me at Fivestack.computer. That's where my consultancy lives. Consults is maybe a strong way of describing it. That's like saying the three toddlers standing on top of each other in a trench coat is like an adult. But if you want to work together, then check that out. ALEX: Great. All right. That wraps it up for us. Thank you very much for listening and we'll talk to you next week.

I just finished the show Live at React Conf (http://jsair.io/react-conf). This is just a few lessons learned from this experience. See you on twitter (https://twitter.com/kentcdodds)!

Как выполнить ActionScript на JavaScript? Зачем нам Rust? Что писать на asm.js? Погружаемся на несколько уровней ниже вместе с нашим гостем, Юрой Делендиком из Mozilla Research. В новостном разделе обсудим React Conf, рейтинги языков программирования и, конечно, ES6/ES2015.

What is Facebook's React.js project? When it was announced at JSConf US 2013 it met mixed reviews. One question that might enter your mind is...as developer today in 2015, do I really need to know another framework? The short answer is “yes”. In episode 31 “Building with React.js” we talk with Facebook developer and TC39 member, Sebastian Markbage (@sebmarkbage) on building apps with React, React Native, React Conf 2015, what's new in the framework, what the core concepts are, what the hype is all about, and much more.   Resources Sebastian Markbage: Minimal API Surface Area | JSConf EU 2014 -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anAwXYqLG8 React - https://github.com/facebook/react Sebastian's Github - https://github.com/sebmarkbage React blog - http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/ v.0.13.0 Beta update - http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2015/01/27/react-v0.13.0-beta-1.html Panelists   Erik Isaksen - UX Engineer at3Pillar Global Danny Blue - Front End Engineer at Deloitte Digital Nick Niemeir - JavaScript Agent Engineer at New Relic