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Play Episode Listen Later Apr 15, 2024 56:09

www.atravelpath.com https://delicioats.com/discount/PATH Use Code PATH Welcome back to the show Pathfinders and holy smokes, Marc and Julie from RVLove did not disappoint! This was an information packed, nearly hour long episode on all things RV. Whether you are a newbie or seasoned RVer, there is something here for everyone. Listen in as RVLove shares all about: Buying an RV Over the past 10 years, RVLove has been through all sorts of RVs, and they offer many, many tips on the buying process. Instead of asking “How much can you afford?” RVLove frames the question, “How much can you afford to lose?” RVs depreciate and they are expensive, so it is important to know how much everything can cost you. They offer specific tips on why you shouldn't wrap your warranty into your loan, as well as the pros and cons of the many different types of RVs. How Has the RV Life Changed You? RVLove shares how they have become changed individuals after spending so much time traveling. The more things they see, the more perspective they have about the world, which results in more of an open mind. How to Get the Right Information About RVing? With so much clickbait and distractions available online, it is tough know whether you are getting the right information. You can watch 10 different videos and hear 10 different opinions on why you should or shouldn't do something, so it can be overwhelming. While you don't want to over-analyze, you definitely want to do your homework before you buy an RV. RVLove shares some tips on how you can verify the information you are receiving. Remote Income In order to make the most of full or part time travel, having a remote income source is key. RVLove shares their story on how they were able to achieve remote income positions at the beginning, before transitioning to their own business. Learn about all this and much more in this episode of A Travel Path Podcast! Chapters · 00:00 Introduction · 03:45 How Did You Get Started RVing? · 09:15 Living Out of Two Suitcases · 11:45 Downsizing and Letting Go · 14:30 Delicioats · 15:15 Pros and Cons of Different RVs · 21:00 All 50 States in 3 Years · 23:00 Biggest Challenge to Get on the Road · 24:45 Buying a New or Used RV · 38:00 How Much Someone Some One Save Up Before RVing Full Time? · 41:45 Books by RV Love · 44:00 How to Get the Right RV Information · 48:45 What Is Your RV Type? Quiz · 51:00 How Has the RV Lifestyle Changed You? · 52:45 What Is the First Step Towards Full Time RVing? RVLove on Social · Website (take the quiz!): https://rvlove.com/ · Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rvlovetravel/ · YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Rvlove · Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RVLoveTV Books By RVLove · Living the RV Life: https://rvlove.com/book/ · RV Hacks: https://rvlove.com/rv-hacks-book/ Blogs by RVLove · Cost of Rving: https://rvlove.com/planning/cost-of-rving-full-time-vs-part-time/ eBook Chris and Cherie · The Mobile Internet Handbook: https://www.rvmobileinternet.com/book/ Past Episodes · #17 Phil and Stacy: https://atravelpath.com/show17/ · #6 Jim and Michelle: https://atravelpath.com/retired-full-time-rv-living/ RV Rental · Outdoorsy: https://www.outdoorsy.com/ · RVshare: https://rvshare.com/ · Cruise America: https://www.cruiseamerica.com/ Music • Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains Disclaimer *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Transcript: Host: Marc and Julie, welcome to the Travel Path Podcast! Thank you for joining us. Guest: Thanks for having us. Host: Yeah, so we know you as RVLove. You guys sold your home in 2014 and have spent the past 10 years traveling full-time and part-time in a variety of different RVs. You're also bestselling authors with a focus on educating RVers. I just want to remind our audience to pay attention; I feel like there's going to be a lot of great information here. Also, I want to give a shout-out to Phil and Stacy from "Today is Sunday," who were on episode 17. I mentioned you guys were a huge influence on going full-time. Before we dive too deep, why don't you share a little about yourselves and then tell our audience what your current travel lifestyle looks like? Guest: Alright, sure. Well, as you mentioned, we hit the road in 2014 to go full-time because we wanted more time together and had limited time off from work. We thought it would be a great way to go. I had some limited travel experience before that, doing some RVing with my family when I was growing up, but hadn't done any extensive RV travel. And Julie had not either. My family, when I—just for anyone listening—I'm originally Australian, but I've been in the States since '08, so I'm a citizen here now. But we met in Boulder, Colorado, in 2010, married in 2011. Yeah, met in 2010 and then we hit the road. And actually, it was funny because we hit the road in 2014, and then for the next over six years, so we actually spent way more time those first eight years of our marriage and our life together in the RV than we did in a regular house. So that was unique as well—still living in a small space, yeah, and working—still married, still even working together. That's great. And then you asked what type of travel we're doing right now. So we were full-time travel from 2014 to 2020; we bought a home base in 2020 and started doing part-time travel. Um, but some years more than others, but this year, right now, I mean, we've been out every month for quite a few of the months. We've been six of the last seven months; we're out since early October. We've only spent one month at home. So we all have been out for I think seven months by the time we get back, so yeah, might as well be full-time travel, right? Well, with the current rig we're in, you totally—this. Host: Yeah, yeah. So Mark, you had mentioned on your website that you worked a 40-hour-a-week job with very limited vacation time and you said RVing was a solution that made you feel like you had more time off. Can you elaborate on that and then how did you get started RVing? Guest: Yeah, sure. Well, I wanted to have a remote job for a long, long time, and I was having trouble finding an employer that would do that. And so I just made it my mission to find an employer that would allow remote work. And once I did that, it was only about three months that went by before I realized, well, I never go to an office, they don't really know where I'm at, so we could be anywhere. And that's when it started opening the idea of doing some more travel. Julie and I did some vision boarding and visualizing what we wanted out of our life, and a lot of it revolved around travel, not possessions. And so that's when we decided to make travel a bigger priority and started doing a lot more research. And in about nine months of heavy, extensive research is when we bought an RV, sold the house, and launched on the road. I had a full-time job at the time that was remote, that was paying all the bills for that, and that allowed that freedom and that remote lifestyle. And I actually didn't tell many people at all at my work that I was going to be doing that because I felt confident that I'd have internet connectivity if we made it a high enough priority and that the longer I went without telling anybody, as long as I didn't have any hiccups, then I would have lots of evidence to say, "Hey, it's totally how long?" Oh, you just—you noticed I'm traveling? How long? Oh, the last two days. Well, I've been doing it for four months. So that was a really great way to come back and say, "This is totally doable; you had no idea I'm doing this for all this time." And I even later went to Australia and didn't tell anybody either. Wouldn't recommend that; the time zone—time hurts; it crushes you. Yeah, but Marc was uh doing remote work before CO made it cool. Host: Yep, funny. Yeah, Australia—you might be showing up a little bit late to work or early depending on what the time difference over there is—brutal. Guest: You would—yeah, to work my 8-to-5 job, I had to work midnight to 9 a.m., and he's not a—not a—and I'm not a night person, and so it was actually really tough because we were also visiting friends and family in Australia. We'd spend a lot of time with them during the day, so I'd work midnight to 9 a.m., have a couple-hour nap, go hang out with friends and family, have a couple-hour nap, and then go back to work. I never got big chunks of time to sleep for a month, and by the end of the month, we would both be delirious. We were literally—wouldn't recommend doing that very often. Just take the time off and just have a vacation; that's our recommendation. Host: Yeah, it is hard to balance, especially if you're traveling that far to balance working full-time with travel and getting those experiences in. So that's probably one of the first lessons you learned was to just separate those a little bit. Guest: Yeah, even domestic travel, the time zones are still a factor, you know. If you have a job that has specific hours and not an asymmetrical or asynchronous job, you know, when you're on the Pacific coast, it's amazing in the summer because you can be off work at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, the sun doesn't go down till 9, you have this whole evening—it's almost like every day is two days. But when you're on the East Coast, unless you'd have to either try and get some stuff done before work or your evenings are short, so lots of modifications. Host: Yeah, so over about 9 months of really planning this, you know, putting a lot of thought into it, considering all the options, doing the vision boards, and really looking into travel over possessions. That's a classic example—doing four months without telling your employer that you're going remote. That's the example of not asking for permission, asking for forgiveness. Guest: Yes, exactly, exactly. And, you know, it—it worked for us. We just—we wanted to spend more time together, we wanted to spend more time with our dog, and, you know, that was RVing is the best way to do that. We—we really wanted to do some international travel, but as long as we had her, it just wasn't really feasible. So we—and we love to drive, we love road trips, we love driving. So, uh, we had a couple of spirited vehicles in the garage. So that's why we, uh, you know, looking for ways that we could go and do more road trips and try some of these most beautiful roads and scenic byways and highways in North America. Yeah, and that's actually part of why we chose the RV we did to start with, is because we had a WRX and a Mazda Miata in the garage, so we loved—yeah, so we loved these sporty cars. And so we decided to sell both of those and then buy a less expensive Mini Cooper Convertible, um, so that we could just have a car we didn't care about as much to tow behind the RV. And then, uh, and had a backseat for the dog. Yeah, but it was really great to go do the exploring, and it was especially fun to switch from the big lumbering class A motorhome to this fun, nimble light sports car. Host: Yeah, you don't want to put too many dents or dings in the WRX when you're driving up those rough rocky roads out west. Guest: Well, that was one of the things. I think our cars were—you know, they were not new but newer and nicer and had a payment on them both, and we're just like, we didn't know how they're going to get impacted being dragged around the country, and, uh, by consolidating and getting rid of those payments too, made a huge difference. But yeah, that Mini—we really had a bit of a rough adventure sometimes; we broke it boondocking, but it was a great car. Host: So, I know, Julie, you have a pretty interesting story as well, how this whole thing started out. So you moved to Boulder, Colorado, from Australia with just two suitcases after selling everything. Can you talk about some of the events that led to that, and then what did that experience teach you about how much stuff you actually needed? Guest: Say very succinctly, as my business blew up in 2008, like so many people when the economy imploded, so did my business. And I laugh about it now, but it was actually a really traumatic time in my life; it was very difficult. I know anyone that went through that, I empathize; it was a tough time. And I needed to start my life over, and I'm like, well, and I was single at the time. And so I'm like, well, if I'm going to start over, am I going to do it here in Sydney? And if anyone's been to Sydney, it's a beautiful city, but it's a big city; it's a fast-paced, one of the big expensive cities of the world. And I'm like, I just don't know if I want to do that again here; just the thought of it was very exhausting, actually. I think I was just burned out and needed a reset. And honestly, I was so broke I couldn't even afford to move out of my apartment, to be honest. I just—I couldn't even afford to send the car back to the lease company; I couldn't afford to do any of that because they wanted a big balloon payment. What am I going to do? So I sublet my apartment and I sublet my car, and then I just put, you know, my stuff in two suitcases and used frequent flyer miles to get over to Colorado. And I'd been at a conference six months earlier and I'd met some people, and somebody had a friend of a friend that had an apartment available for sublet. So I was able to be very creative and live for three months in—I think I lived three months rent-free in three months in Boulder for the amount of time I rented my apartment in Sydney for six weeks or something; it was something like that. I had to get very creative. And, um, so yeah, but it—it just made me realize that you really don't need that much stuff. And it's actually shocking to me when Marc and I met and married a few years later after—you know, back and forth, Australia, I eventually got a job, got sponsored, and then we met, got married, and had the townhome. And I'm like, how the heck am I downsizing when I moved here from the other side of the world with two suitcases? How did I end up with stuff again? Obviously, not as much stuff as I used to have from accumulating it over my life, but still, even periodically in the RV, we still go through and declutter and downsize and get rid of stuff. You just have to; it's human nature, I think, just to accumulate even little things. It just—I don't know what it is; it's an illness. Host: It is, yeah. I think I mean, part of it, we've heard that's been like the biggest, one of the biggest challenges so far, especially dealing with people who are going full-time, is just downsizing and getting rid of, you know, half, more than half, of the stuff that you own. Um, we've got a lot of content where we discussed, you know, not just the physical struggle, but the emotional struggle with that as well, because you're letting go of, you know, things that are—you're letting go of things that are important to you because, you know, you have to just make that choice, right? Guest: You have memories associated with those things, memories and people, and especially if people have departed, that's very hard to think about. You hear about a lot of people having trouble giving up the furniture that their parents or their grandparents had, and they're holding it for their kids. But if you can have that conversation with the kids now, I don't know about you guys, if you'd be wanting your grandma's furniture, probably not, even if it was top-of-the-line, expensive, fancy stuff back in the day, probably not your style. And so often, people can be holding onto that and paying to store it only to find that, well, they didn't want it anyway. So you've got to get practical too. Host: The two tips we've learned so far, I'll just sum that up really quickly, was Jim and Michelle had mentioned that they didn't want to leave the burden to their children because ultimately, you know, they're going to pass at some point, and their children are going to have all this stuff. They just figured they'd get rid of it for them before, you know, their children inherited it. And then Phil and Stacy had mentioned that those things that they have a strong emotional attachment, just take a picture of them. You can create a photo book online; you can always reference them. But the memories, you know, you can look at and go back to that place. Guest: And you could even take that up a notch and just put your iPhone on a tripod and do a little video and just film yourself having the item and telling a story, and just say, "Oh, this was given to me by my Aunt Mary, and this is what it meant to me," or this, and then actually have a story, and it's like watching your own little home movie, you know? So that's how easy to do these days is just hit play and uh, just have a conversation with it about. Host: Uh, 2014. We've probably come a long way with the technology and everything. Um, you talked about how you had transitioned your cars, right? You—you had switched to the Mini Cooper. Did you say it wasn't Mini Cooper? Guest: Mini Cooper S convertible, yep, yep, it was. Host: You switched to the Mini Cooper, um, but you also had mentioned that you've gone from five different RVs in your past 10 years of traveling so far, uh, motorized, towable, large, small, you name it. What are some of the pros and cons of each that you've discovered and um, what were some of the factors that influenced you to replace what you already had? Host: Hey, guys, I wanted to take a quick break to tell you about Delicia Oats. We've been enjoying Delicia Oats for many years, and they have helped fuel us for those extra-long hikes. They are flavored oats that come in a pouch and are very easy to set up. Just add water, give it a shake, and let it sit overnight and enjoy the next morning. Or you can add boiling water if you like them served hot. We've also added them to our morning smoothie, or I'll sprinkle some into my yogurt for some extra flavor and to help fill me up. You can make them in less than a minute, and there is no cleanup, which is huge for us on the road. Now, if you're like me, the first question you'll ask is how much added sugar is there, and here's a big one for me—no added sugar. They come in a variety of flavors; my personal favorite is cherry chocolate. Enjoy them for yourself by placing an order at DeliciaOats.com and use the coupon code "PATH" at checkout. That's DeliciaOats.com, D-E-L-I-C-I-A-O-A-T-S.com, and use the coupon code "PATH." Guest: Yeah, well, most all of our full-time travel was in a class A motorhome, the Big Bus type motorhomes towing a car. Um, part of it was the Mini Cooper, and then we switched to a Jeep so that it'd be easier to tow. But I want to jump in just there before you go into the details. For the first— it sounds like we've had a lot of RVs. It sounds like we change on average every two years, but for the first six and a quarter years, we only had two RVs. But it's been since we've gone part-time that we've been we switched a lot more when we went to part-time. Um, and the main reason we switched from the first coach to the second coach was cargo carry capacity because the first one was just inadequate for that and it was a little unsafe. Um, and then so we went to a diesel with much higher capacities. But we've actually—we have enormous experience, and we love learning from everyone else we meet in all of our travels. We did a lot of research ourselves, but then we also continually research with everyone else. And now we also wanted to have the other experiences to share with people. And so now we've traveled in 17-foot travel trailers and 45-foot classes and everything in between because we have owned five, but we've also rented or borrowed a lot of the other types too. Um, and really, the type of RV you have depends on the RV travel style you want to enjoy. You know, a couple years, we had a smaller Class C, which was a very nimble and faster-paced travel. Um, and now we have a truck and fifth wheel, which is a slower-paced travel but really homey, and we really enjoy that. This is the fifth wheel we've got here we're in, and it's so—they all have their own reasons and your own seasons for why you change them. Part of the reason we resisted having a fifth wheel for a long time is Julie is not very tall, and so a lot of fifth wheels, the cabinets are very hard to reach, so that's a challenge. But I didn't want to get into a big truck, and Julie didn't want to drive a big truck, but now she actually has quite a bit of comfort around that, and so she does drive the big truck. And then we've got an RV that has a big pantry that has low-level storage for easy access for her. So, but again, a lot of it depends on your travel style and pace is a big part of why you choose different ones and just different seasons of RV life. So when we first started out, we were just, I think, like most people that hit the road, you were like, "I want to see everything. I want to go to Yellowstone and the Grand Canyon and all the top things on the bucket list, right? I want to go to all the national parks. I want to visit all 50 states, 48 with the RV. We have not driven to Alaska. I know many people have, but that's such a—and we didn't drive to Hawaii, which most people don't either; we flew to Hawaii. And actually, we did the 48 states, funnily enough. We love to share that we did all 48, the lower 48, in three years, a little over three years, while working full-time. And I think when you really think about that, like, this is such a big, vast country. And for anyone—I don't know how good geography is, but the size of the United States is the same size as Australia, geographically very similar. But there's nothing to really see in the middle except the Outback, and it's very hot. But in the US, there is so much you can see in every single state. And it's shocking, actually, when you think what a big country it is. And let's not forget Canada too; we love Canada. We should say North America, not just the US. But that—you know, even though it's so big, it's shocking how much you can really see if you're focused and you plan it in a relatively short period of time, because we saw all of the 50 states before age 15, which is pretty cool. I mean, a lot of people will never do that in their life, and that's something we feel really grateful and really blessed to have been able to do that at an age where we're still young and fit and healthy enough to get out there and do the hikes and, you know, get out there and not just do the little 500-meter loop, take a few photos, and get back in your vehicle, which some people do, but to really get out and, you know, bike and hike and do everything. So, I think, just that season of life, so we were going at a pretty fast pace that first few years, but we still stayed, we tried to stay for a couple of weeks at a time. And then we switched to the second rig, very similar kind of a travel pace, but we'd already seen all 50 states with our first rig, so then we changed gears where we're less about just going and exploring everything, and we would've been more time just really working in the RV and renovating the RV; we renovated that older one. And then a lot of the places we're going to now, we're going back to. There are less places that we're going to for the first time. So, for example, we're here in Tucson right now. We've been here before; we love Tucson, but we haven't gone out and done a ton because we had poor internet in Mesa in the Phoenix area, and we didn't get as much work done, and we had a lot of social time with friends. So now we're here, we're kind of playing catch-up. Host: Right, so you know, adjusting our schedule like that, but the different kinds of RVs just fit the season of your life. Guest: Sure, yeah. Host: Um, you guys are speaking our language. That's actually one of Hope's goals, is doing the 50 States before we turn 50. Of course, she turns 50, which we're on track to do. So, and um, the same thing, that's the reason we took our trip. You talked about wanting to do those longer hikes while you're young and you still can. That's the reason why we did this young while we're continuing to do it so that we can take those longer hikes and the scenic things and do that at a younger age while we still have our knees, right? Um, so 3 years, all 48 states, was that looking back on that, was that too fast or was that the perfect pace, do you think? Guest: Probably a little fast, especially working full—you know, you try to tell people to slow down, they're not going to, they're going to do it anyway, so just, you'll figure it out. But I will say, if you—Marc is very disciplined with his work schedule, we don't have kids, okay? So, if you have kids and you're trying to do a job, you know, travel, set up your RV, pack it down, road school the kids, all of these things, they just take more time and so you need to allow for that. But, yeah, well, you know, in the Northeast where you guys are from, you can knock out a lot of states quick because they're a lot smaller, but out west, in a weekend— Host: Yeah, they're a lot bigger. Guest: Yeah, Rhode Island, if you blink, you miss it, it's only 20 miles driving across it, right? So, it's quick, yeah. You drive four hours, you're in—yeah, four different states out west, you're still in the same state driving the same day, exciting when you have that state sticker map and you just go through and subtly your numbers go away— Yeah, but that's one of the funny things about a goal of hitting all 50 states, is like, you're in Texas, you're going to Colorado, but you decide to go through all these Midwestern states in this big arc because you want to make sure you get to these other states on your way, do that. We've done that, we do that. Host: Our rule is we have to do something cool in that state, like it's fun, we have to have an experience in every state, memorize every state on the East except Delaware, we've driven through Delaware a thousand times but haven't stopped there, so we have to actually stop there one day and do something cool. So, if anyone's listening for something cool in Delaware, let us know, at least stop. Guest: Yeah, everyone's got their own rules—nwe have to have a memorable experience. Some people have to visit the state capital, some people have to spend multiple nights and like that, everyone has their own rules of what they qualify, but you, that's your rules, so you can do them however you want. Host: So, going back to when you guys first started out, obviously, just mentioned it took about nine months to get there, a lot of work was involved in that, just planning, processing everything, um, what was the biggest challenge you faced in getting on the road? It doesn't sound like it was talking to your boss about going remote because he didn't do that, but what was the biggest challenge you had to overcome to get there? Guest: You know, I think when we first started out, we spent a lot of time researching online, YouTube, and um, we found a great ebook, actually. Our first question was not about the RV but was around the internet because if we can't get solid internet to work from the road, there's no point in setting foot on a dealer lot, starting our RV shopping because it's not going to happen. Yeah, in 2013, that was a lot more challenging than it is now. And we found an ebook by Chris and Sherie from Mobile Internet Resource Center. I'm sure you've heard of them or most of your listeners have. And I mean, they are—they are the reason, I think, a great many of us are being today because they are the gurus on all things mobile internet and connectivity. And so, we read their ebook, and it was just like, "Oh, we can do this." Because we're thinking, "Do we need to get satellite and all kinds of things?" But no, cellular, you can do it with that. And sure enough, we've just followed their lead, you know, the whole way. And we changed our plans and set up a few times along the way, not often, but often enough to just revisit it every couple of years and make sure it's still optimal set up for us. And so, that was a great resource, and we just devoured, you know, YouTube videos and blogs. We didn't read any books, there weren't any, except for that ebook. But I think, I think back then, what do you think was the biggest challenge? Was trying to figure out which RV we really wanted. We—we thought we wanted new until I remember we were at Camping World on a Sunday, and the sales department was closed, and we were looking at the accessories, the store was open, and some guy who worked in service came by and he said, "Are you planning on buying an RV?" We said, "Yeah." He said, "Whatever you do, don't buy new." Host: Wow. Guest: Planning on buying new, you know, when you're new, when you're new, you don't know. You assume it's like buying a new car, I'll buy new, I'm going to get the warranty and everything's going to be great. Well, the more you learn about RVing, the more you realize, no, it's not that way, your first RV is going to teach you the most and is going to depreciate hard and you're going to lose money. And so, I actually have a thing I want to start saying to people instead of saying, "Well, how much does an RV cost?" or "How much can you afford?" I would turn it around and say, "Well, how much can you afford to lose?" That's the question. I'm not saying that to be mean, just so much as it is going to cost you money. This is, for most people, unless it is your only viable option for housing, which is the case for some people, but many of us are out there living this by choice, and we're, you know, privileged, really, to do that. But you don't want to financially disadvantage yourself too much. And so, your first RV will teach you the most, so spend as little as you can to get something that's going to do what you want and needed to do. And then, once you learn more, then your next RV, you can look at. I know going to be a lot of people probably disagreeing with me in the comments, and that's that's just fine, that's just my opinion after 10 years and five rigs, and you do you, but you know, that's what, if that would be back then, I would have spent less than what we did on our first setup. I think we could have had just the same great experience. Um, it was a good rig, but I don't think we needed to spend that much. No. So, start with something that doesn't have everything you quite need because chances are, at some point, you're going to want to upgrade anyway, so might as well not spend a ton of money on your first. A lot of ours change within the first year or two, some, some transfer in less, switch in less than a year because they realized they made a mistake. We see a lot of people get forced off the road pretty early on because they've picked a dud rig or they just got unlucky or they—it was costing them more, it was costing a lot more than when we started. When we started 10 years ago, the cost of RVing is much higher now, not gas, surprisingly. I know we had that period where gas went high. When we started, it was like $3.50 something a gallon, we saw over $4 a gallon in our first year, and now we're seeing it again around $3.30 a gallon, but we've seen it in the sixes, and so, a lot, so, especially Host: seven, seven was our highest, 7.40 in California, but yeah, it's tough to prepare for how much you're going to be spending on fuel. Guest: Fuel is one of those expenses that you can modify, and you've got a van, so that's got better fuel economy than most. Host: Yeah. Guest: Yeah, but slowing down the pace, slow the reduced spend on fuel, and in fact, I was just, you know, we just, I was just doing a little recap on the last three years of our winter travel, you know, this year, we're in Arizona, last year, California, year before, we went to Florida, but also to California, um, and just looking at the fuel expense, you know, the first Florida trip, we spent $700 a month on fuel, and then last year, we were spending like five, and then this year, um, under, it's only three. And so, part of it's slower pace, but part of it's also, you know, just fewer mileage, you just change your travel plans, if it's a big part of your budget, don't go as far and don't—and stay longer. But I would say if people—if—if the cost of fuel is freaking people out, just don't buy an RV, that's my answer, just don't get one, because you never know what's going to change. I mean, you could wait for gas prices to go down, but they go up and down, I don't care who is president, they go up and they go down, and people just like to distract and blame, and that's something that is out of your control, so you're going to let it control you and your travels, and just like, you know what, maybe go out for dinner one less time a month and make a meal at home and what you save, you put it in the tank. I mean, it's your choice, if you're going to freak out and just whine about gas prices all the time, just go and drive your hybrid vehicle and stay in an Airbnb, then you won't have to fix it you don't have to worry about depreciation, that's a whole other episode, but really, I mean, I'm very direct about these things now, people may not like it, but also do your research, like one of the guys I met once that was the most ridiculous was he had—he had four different RVs in six months, he bought a Class C RV, didn't like it, bought a Class A gas, didn't like it, bought a Class A diesel, didn't like it, bought a Prevost bus conversion, you know, a half million dollar coach, finally was satisfied with that, but he obviously had more dollars than cents because he was just spending like crazy. If he would have just done a little more research, maybe gone on a test drive or something before just buying him, he could have saved himself a lot of hassle, a lot of money, and just ended up—it was a $700,000 rig, he ended up with a used $700,000, but you know they, you know, probably a couple of million years, yeah, do your research, but yeah, and rent. We say rent an RV, full disclosure, we did not rent, you know, not saying we advise people against it, it's a good idea to rent and be sure that this is something you really want to do. Now, the one that you rent, you can through companies like RVshare, for example, you can rent from companies, from individuals, rather, so you can do the—the ones with all the branding on the side from Roadbear and Cruise America, all of that that have the dog sticker looking out the window, but or you can get one that just looks like a regular normal RV owned by private, uh, people that just want to make a bit of money to help offset the cost of ownership. And that feels to me more like the kind of a—you can rent an RV, even the same brand, make, model, and size that you're even thinking you might like to buy, and rent that first, and it seems expensive, I think people look at that and think, "Wow, it's so expensive." Well, they don't realize is old—no, what is expensive is if you make a poor choice buying, and you have to get out of that, you're going to spend a lot more than you're going to think, "Wow, that RV rental would have been cheaper in it." I think, case in point, is our friend that we bought the Class C from, was a 25-foot Mercedes Sprinter little Winnebago navon, and he's 6'2" and he full-timed in that for a few years, and then he—he then he had it in storage and we rented it from him, then we bought it from him, and he was going to buy a Class B van, like, "I want a van, I want a van," and then he rented one for a weekend and realized this is—I'm too tall and if I want a friend to come and hang out and visit, this is not going to work. So, that's why he went from a B to a C, and so just renting it, renting it for a week, and saved him on making an expensive mistake, and probably the B would have been more expensive than the C too. So, that was a good move for him. Host: Yeah, being tall, I'm 6'4", being tall in a class B van, it really limits the floor plan you can choose. Um, since you guys started in 2014, obviously the landscape and just the world has changed quite a bit. Is there anything you would do differently now starting out? Guest: Well, I already said one, I wouldn't have spent as much on our first coach. I loved our first coach, it was beautiful, it worked great for us, except for the weight. We didn't understand, now that's not true, we didn't—it's not that we didn't understand about the—it was very difficult to find out the information that we needed to make that decision. And we're so happy that there's so much more information out there now that people, like, for example, how much does your stuff weigh? How much does your, you know, your food and your clothes and your work equipment and the stuff you want to take with you, how much does that weigh? And I don't know if maybe some people here have gone and literally weighed their stuff before, but we didn't. I actually intended to, we didn't. I intended to, but part of the transition was we bought the RV and then we set it up out behind our townhome, and I was working in there, and I brought the dog to transition so it would make an easier transition to actually hit the road. Meanwhile, Julie's just bringing stuff out from the house, and I remember her vividly saying, "It just keeps taking it," like it had tons of storage space. You're supposed to, because a lot of people think, "Oh, there's lots of storage space, it must have storage capacity," but it doesn't. Those are not the same thing, and so that's important. And so we found—and we did a video on this—and I think this one of the videos that I'm really, you know, proud of. Not that it was anything fancy or special, but it just, I think, shared a lot of information that wasn't out there at the time, and now we hear a lot of others talking about weight and being really mindful of their weight more, and that never used to be the case. I'm really happy to hear and see that so many people are mindful of that now because there's so much more awareness. So, I think the weight thing is a big issue. Do not trust the salesman to say, "Oh, yeah, your truck can tow that," or, "Yeah, it can." No, they're there to sell you something, do your own research, and don't just copy—don't just copy what someone else is doing. "Oh, I like that couple, they've got this setup, I'm just going to get what they got." Well, it may not be right for you. You know, like really ask yourself those big questions about what's important. We met a lot of people, remember the first trip to Tahoe, we met that couple that had been full-timing for 18 years, what did we do? Yeah, they've been—they've been full-timing for 18 years, our first RVing for 18 years, and then Julie asks them, "This is our first weekend, Julie asks them, 'So, what advice do you have for us as new RVers?'" Like, "Well, it's too late for that. I would have told you to get an RV with a washer and dryer." I'm like, "Really? That's your only advice?" That was, and then the conversation ended. I'm like, "So, 10 years we've never had a washer and dryer or any of our RVs, and we don't miss that. It's not something high value to us, we'd rather have the storage space for the extra clothes and then do laundry less frequently than have an actual washer dryer in the machine." So, yeah, it's different, everyone random answers to a lot of your questions. Host: But it would just kind I feel like. I'm an optimistic person, but for some reason when it comes to appliances, I feel very—I'm very pessimistic about putting a washer under, I just feel like it's asking for problems. I don't know, I don't know how common they are, but most St to go wrong. Guest: Yeah, we often say, you know, try and choose a less complex RV, less options, because there's less things to go wrong, the more simple the RV, the less things can go wrong, because RVs have a lot of maintenance. There's a lot of cost related to—we have a lot of blog posts on our website RVlove.com with things about costs of RVing, and I think that kind of thing is really important to share so people go in with eyes wide open. So, just make sure you reduce your debt as much as you can, reduce your expenses, make sure you have some padding because there's going to be unexpected expenses, and so plan ahead, be comfortable with what you're going into, at least if you're going full-time, you're trading, you know, one expense for another, but if you're trying to do both with having a home base and renting, just doing extended RV travel, then that can get expensive. And that is part of the reason why we have actually had three rigs in the last three years as part-timers because, you know what, we found like we—we had that little Casita, it was a little fiberglass, and we and we wanted something we could tow with our Jeep. We love our Jeep, we didn't want to change that, and we wanted something that would fit in our carport, so we had really limited parameters, and we wanted something quality, and so that ticked all the boxes, but it's so small, and they're cute and lovely, and we got lots of compliments in the parking lots when we would go to the store, but we're the kind of people that, we're not just using it as a base camp to go hiking all the time, we come back and we do work, and so we need more space. And so, it just was ultimately too small for us, especially once we got the dog and another dog, he's around here somewhere, and then that—we had that about 16 months, and then we rented our friend's Class C and ended up buying that, and that was good, and we went on a longer trip, that was much more comfortable for our longer four or four and a half month trip to Florida, and then we came home, and because we love where we live so much in Colorado, we actually love being there in the summer and the fall. So, the RV was hardly getting used, it was sitting out there. It's a motorized, it needs to be used and driven, so it was just heartbreaking to see it out there not getting used as much as we—you would hope, and then you, you do the math on it, like, this is a mortgage payment, I have a mortgage payment sitting out there depreciating every month, and so, you know, we're not independently wealthy and retired, we're still trying to, you know, get to that point where we—we can retire someday, and so it became a financial decision where it just wasn't the amount of money that was in it was just not worth it. And then we changed this, which is a truck that Marc can use around town and around home, you wanted that anyway, he does a few little handyman market construction jobs here and there, and then, uh, this fifth wheel that we ended up buying from a friend, it's used, it was two years old, but it's great, and we're—we're in the whole setup for half of the cost of what the—uh, the Mercedes was, the—it's on Mercedes chassis, which is very expensive, those little Class C's on the Mercedes chassis, the service and everything, they—they—they go really well when you take care of them, nothing tends to go wrong in between the services, but it's some sticker shot when they do go wrong. Host: Yeah, that sounds like kind of a long story short. Over time, your needs, your lifestyles, are going to change, as well as the RV type that you're going to be driving. You had mentioned having some sort of cushion or padding, some savings allocated in case things go wrong. Do you have a number on how much you should have saved up when you're traveling full-time? Guest: I don't think necessarily so much as probably a number of months. I mean, you're talking just for RV-related or just in general? Because anyone out there that you're learning from, say, doing financial investing, would say you should have six months' worth of savings just in case you lose your job or if something happens. Host: I guess that's, yeah, the six months is a good rule of thumb, I guess. So RV-related, people don't have that. Guest: A lot of people, especially if people are doing the full-time RV life, because they're trying to do big savings, and because that's an opportunity, you can do it where you spend significantly less than other styles of life. But especially if that's your goal and your priority because you just don't travel as far and you don't travel as fast, and that's a great way to save money if you're staying in campgrounds a month at a time instead of moving every week. And do your research to know how to do it inexpensively, like Julie and I have been out on this trip for a hundred days, and we've spent next to nothing on our campground stays because we have a campground membership that we've been staying in membership campgrounds with no nightly fee almost the entire trip. And so we spent some money on fuel but not that much. And so if you're in the Southwest, yeah, or if people Boondock, but how you want to travel can make a massive difference in what you save. And so I think percentage-wise, I just wanted to say people should have some cushion. Don't just go right on the very thin line because there's going to be something that happens, and you need to have some cushion for things to happen. And if it doesn't, but it will, but if it doesn't, but it will, then you'll have that money. But that, Marc point there about an extended warranty, you can get an extended warranty, but you can buy a used RV and get an extended warranty. Don't roll it into the cost of the financing. If you finance your RV, pay separately for the extended warrant. I don't care if you have to put it on an interest-free credit card and divide it by 11 and pay it off in the year so you don't get hit with that interest and whatever you have to do, actually. Our extended warranty company, you can do whatever. I think it's for payments or something. They have like a payment plan. Don't roll it in, def financing because a lot of people will finance an RV over 15, 20 years or more, and if you roll in that $7,000 payment for or 5,000 or $4,000, whatever it costs you for an extended warranty, you have to do the math on what that is really going to cost you factoring in the interest. So don't do that because or what you can do is put that money aside and so that let's say I don't pull a number out because it depends on your rig, right? Let's say it's $4,000. You can put 4,000 aside. Don't touch it. How disciplined are you, right? Or get an extended warranty, but then that sometimes we'll have something on the RV like when we had the nav on down in Florida that it would have qualified to be fixed under the warranty, but we couldn't get into a shop for six months. We needed it fixed like right away, so MK had to fix it. So even though you have a warranty, it doesn't always mean you'll be able to get into a shop to get it repaired right away or just may not be convenient on your most, most repairs on RVs can be done by someone 80% if you're willing to get your hands dirty and watch a couple YouTube videos. Most RV repairs can't be done yourself. They can be done. Host: And you mentioned you can't get into the RV dealer, but even sometimes if you get it into the RV dealer, they still might not do it or they might not do it for quite a long time horror stories. Yeah, we're smiling 'cause we wish we broke a lot of you guys' rules. We wish we had listened to this podcast before we ended up buying. But yeah, have has anyone ever said you guys should write a book? Guest: They have, and we did. We've written two of them, two bestselling books. Our first book, "Living the RV Life: Ultimate Guide to Life on the Road," is one that's focused on people who want to do extended RV travel. And then we have a second book, "RV Hacks: 400 Ways to Make Your Life Easier, Safer, and More Fun." And that's both have U Been bestsellers and both are, yeah. But that's funny that that's the first one. Yeah, that was our first rig, and fun fact, do you recognize this location? So don't... So that's a donor that is the donor M took that with the drone. And then the second book, about a week after month after we moved into our new house and now upside down and no furniture and our heads were spinning going, "What the heck?" Um, something... El, you go full time, you get off the road, you're so used to having your furniture in your RV that you realize you don't have any furniture when you have a... Yeah, we just start back into a house. But I'm glad we didn't pay for storage all those years because it wouldn't have fit and worked in this house. Now, our house is furnished. It's small. It's a th000 square feet, but it's perfect for us, felt very palatial after moving out of a 350 square foot RV. But this is the second book, "RV Hacks," and that's broken up into six chapters. Um, driving out the repairs and maintenance camp in campgrounds, I'll be living, working on the road, families, kids, and pets. So there's something for everyone. And it's one of those fun, easy books you can open at any page, and you just, like, read a hack. You don't have to read. You can read from front to back, or you can just randomly jump from chapter to chapter or, you know, play trivia games when you're driving down the road and see how well your significant other knows the answer to that question, whatever. But, uh, yeah, they're great, um, fun books that I, you know, the publisher reached out to us for the first one in early 2018, and I'd always kind of thought wanted to write. I've always wanted to write a book, actually, but then when the publisher reached out and said, "Well, there isn't anything out there to... We see RVing becoming a much, uh, bigger trend like extended and full-time RVing," and so they, they had a lot of foresight, and we said, "We think so too." So, yeah, it was great to be able to consolidate that into one place where you can go and read blogs, YouTube videos, like we did all of that as well. There's a lot more information out there now than there was when we started. So that's both good and bad because it's good because there's a lot more information, information out there, but it's challenging because now it's overwhelming, and you don't know what to trust. There's a lot of drama and clickbait content out there now. Um, we actually don't even watch YouTube anymore or any other YouTube especially, but because there we know seeing a lot of the drama, clickbaity type headings, and it's like, "Oh, we got kicked out of the campground." I'm like, "Really? In 10 years, been kicked out of a campground, like, really dude? What did you do?" I mean, you just... You're trying to get it worries me that a lot of people watching these YouTube videos get a bad, um, perspective for the lifestyle. It doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be. I'm not... It's not all sunshine and roses and rainbows. I really want people to know that it is not. But it is also not full of all this drama, scary stuff that you're seeing. But that's the stuff that people click on, and they create that content because that's how they make money. So it's so... We just done. Host: Yeah, and that goes for not just the RV world, but everything nowadays. Whether it's financial, real estate, there's contradicting information everywhere. So you bring up a good point. There's a ton of... You can look up 10 different videos that say 10 different things about what you should do RVing. How can people know that they're actually getting good information? Guest: Well, I think like anything, whether it's RVing or anything, you really need to spend a bit of time looking at the source. Do you know, is their face on there? Do they tell something about themselves and their story and their experience? I've seen some blogs where their experience is living in a trailer in their grandmother's backyard, like, literally, and then they're positioning themselves as these experts. I'm like, okay, I'm not really... Not getting that here. But, you know, do some research. How long have they been doing it? What, you know, how are they communicating? Like, it shouldn't be in a way that's being very forceful on a certain way of opinion so much as realizing that everybody's different and there's no one right way to RV. So I think getting balanced information is a really important point. Check on what is their background and experience, um, and, you know, I think that's one of the things that we really like about "Living the RV Life." We say, "Look, you can spend months researching YouTube, but you could read this in a weekend and it will give you a good baseline. And then you can with that go do your other research and see if it's aligning with that, because this was all verified and, you know, checked. This is not just us whipping out a book with our opinions. This is with a major publishing house. They edit it, they fact-check everything, and that takes a long time. And when you're turning out YouTube videos and blog posts, they're often thrown up in the matter of an hour or so. And ours, our blog posts, we can take 40 hours to write one article because we do a lot of research, do a lot of, you know, checking accuracy, and also not trying to force our opinions onto other people, but so much as get them to ask the questions that's going to help them reach the correct answer for their own selves, their life stage, their financial situation, their goals. Like, there'll be some people might say, "Just go out and do it. What have you got to lose?" Well, that's easy to say when you're 20s and 30s. But if you're someone, you know, like 40s or 50s or someone who's 60 and approaching retirement, well, that may not make the most sense. But it's harder for them to recover if they make a bad decision, right? So, you know, you've got time on your side when you're younger. And so I think, you know, the more money you're planning to spend, the more plan time you're planning to spend in an RV, the more you have on the line, the more you really want to do your research before you dive in so that you know that you're doing it as smartly as you possibly can. But there's, like I said, there's a lot of scary stuff out there online. It doesn't have to be that way, but certainly go in with your eyes wide open and buyer beware. And it's balancing, how do you balance that? How do you, you know, do that research but then go into analysis paralysis where you're so terrified to make a decision that you... And I think that can be really tricky for some people. But when you know yourself and what's important to you, and then you find that things are checking the boxes, then you'll know it's like... But they say, how do you know when you've met the right partner? You just know, right? 100%. Host: Yeah. Do the research on the research that you're getting. And if it turns out that that source has written two bestselling books, even better. I can't believe how... Guest: Through the reviews, yeah. Don't just trust or believe us. Go read the reviews and see what other people say. Host: Sure, yeah. And I can't believe how fast this episode's flying by. I feel like I haven't asked half the questions I had written down, but that's okay. We've opened up a whole other... Not can of worms, we've gone on a whole different route, and it's been really informative. Thank you guys for sharing so much information. I do want to add, you talk about 400 RV hacks. Um, I can think of one hack somebody could do right now, which is heading over to your guys' website, RVLifestyle.com, and filling out the "What is your RV type?" Quiz. When I did it before, personality, what's your, what's your RV style? That's a fun little quiz, and I did it right before, yeah, right before we started the podcast. We were preparing, and yeah, it takes, it's 10 questions, takes like two minutes. We both got Adventurer. So, and it's, I would say it's pretty deadly accurate. I got the... I took a screenshot. Let me see what it says. "I'm glad to see you're aligned with your travel partner. That's a big first step." Yeah, see here, it's both. Can you see it? Yeah, try, try, try, and tested, good dose of the great outdoors. Um, I like this part: "Your preferred choice of RV will be determined by where it can take you and what activities it offers. Um, you like national parks, heading out on a new trail, paddling a quiet stretch of river, um, so much better if it is shared with a friend, furry or otherwise." That's... Guest: And then you'll have somebody that only wants to stay at high-end RV resorts with level paved sites and no... and dirt, and, you know, that's... that's... that's a different kind of style. That's why we always ask the questions, so make the right decisions for them, and, and, you know, you can have the best of both worlds. I like both, actually. I like staying at nice, clean, level campgrounds, and then I love going out and boondocking in the desert, and then when that gets a bit old, we go back in and have a really long shower and think how wonderful that is. Do your laundry, exactly. Yeah, yeah. We'll put a link in the show notes for all the sources we talked about today, and, yeah, it's just RVLifestyle.com. At the top of your website, you can fill out the quiz. But yeah, we'll start wrapping this thing up. If you could have listened to this podcast when you were first starting out, what is one question I did not ask tonight that you wished I would have, and how would you answer that? Guest: Well, I'm glad you didn't ask the question, "Where's the best place you've been?" So, you get a big green check Marc for that. Uh, but I think the biggest question that I wish more people would ask, whether it's, you know, you and the podcast or, is, how has the lifestyle changed you? Because we go out with a big long bucket list. I want to go here and there and do this and do that, and you think it's about the places and the experiences, and it is, but then along the way you realize you grow and you change and your perspective on life and the world changes along with that, and your mind opens, and then you start to realize, actually, funny, just before the call, I posted on, um, on your Instagram at RV Love Travel, if you want to check it out, and it's like Marc sitting here at the desk that we're sitting, talking to now, and we're here at a park, we're surrounded by park models, so it's not a particularly scenic location, but the sunset was unbelievable, and you just... You can see, I did a pan around the windows, and you're just surrounded by these, and it's just those moments where you just, in everyday life, that didn't happen as much. You have to make an effort to go out and see a sunset, and this sounds so sunrise, too. I'm just not a morning person, but, uh, just... Just those moments where you just stop and you... You, I think, you become more present with all the little moments that happen, where some of our most memorable, special experiences were actually not any of the top, big places. Some were, but not all, and there were places I would never necessarily say, "Oh, you have to go here," it was just that that experience that day happened to be magical for reasons that I can't even always explain. So, I don't know if this makes sense, if I'm getting a little esoteric, but I think it's just we're different people now than when we started, and, uh, and I like that. Host: Yeah, no, makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's great. Um, for someone listening to this podcast who wants to set up a lifestyle where they can travel on their own terms but aren't quite there yet, what is one thing they could start doing today? Host: Do a budget and get clear on your finances, yeah, so you know how, like if you can generate a find a way to generate income mobile, then that's a big first step, you know. I chose to leave my, you know, good job to find another job that would allow me to do remote, is a huge factor for us to be able to hit the road. I eventually left that job too, so we could just launch our, do our own business to have even more freedom with our schedule, but I think to Julie's point, yeah, have you figured... Have it figured out financially how you're going to make the lifestyle sustainable longer term? It's hard to... Once you get in there, you're going to want it longer and longer, and you need to, so you have to have some idea of the sustainability before you start, because you're likely going to want to continue. Host: Sure, yeah, that's great. Um, last question, guys, where can our audience find out more about you? Guest: Well, we're at RVLove.com, and you'll find everything that we have linked there. You can Google us, RV Love, and you'll find us on social media as well, and, yeah, we just love you to say hi and come and drop us a note on social media or shoot us a note in the email, and jump on our... Do that quiz, do that quiz, and figure out your RV travel personality that will get you onto our email if you check the box, and, uh, yeah, we'd love to stay in touch and keep sharing and keep learning and see more people out there and doing it, and doing it well. Doing it well, we... We want to see people thriving, and back to Marc's point about the finances, you won't feel free if you're drowning in debt, if you're, you know, drowning in credit card debt, you know. If you need to delay your plans a bit, but for some people, we've seen some people do it for a while to get out of debt, so it's what are your goals in life, not just for RVing, but what are your goals for your life, for your financial life, for your relationship, for it all comes down to knowing your why, why you're wanting to do it, and then prioritize that, yep, so start with that, know your why. Host: Wow, guys, so many valuable points and quotes and information in this podcast. Thanks again, and last, last question, just for... Doesn't stay in too much suspense, what are we talking about for travel tips? Guest: Need to talk about Sedona today. Yeah, Sedona, Arizona, on the cover of our book, and we love it, and we actually just did a little trip up there last month, so a fresh new restaurant to share. Host: Yeah, all right, everybody, keep an eye out for that episode airing in two days. Marc and Julie, thanks again. Guest: Thanks, everyone. Bye

21. The Workamping King & Budgeting Queen @OpenRoading

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 8, 2024 58:17

www.atravelpath.com https://delicioats.com/ https://delicioats.com?sca_ref=2606128.heLxZNHtFuUse Code “PATH” Welcome back Pathfinders! Today we have a great episode in store with Joe and Kalyn from Open Roading. Going Full Time Open Roading originally only planned on traveling for a year, but they soon fell in love with the lifestyle. Learn about how they were able to continue traveling and some of the obstacles they had to overcome that almost sent them back home. Workamping From python catching to gate guarding to a beet harvest, we discuss a ton of information about getting into workamping. We discuss the requirements to get into this industry as well as websites you can use to find jobs. And of course, I couldn't change the subject without asking them their favorite and least favorite workamping jobs! Budgeting If you are familiar with their Instagram or YouTube, you'll know that Open Roading are very detailed and open about their budget. We break down what a typical month looks like for them, and talk about some of the things they are spending most of their money on, like health insurance, fuel, and internet. Open Roading also shares their favorite budgeting app to make budgeting easier for them. The biggest takeaway I found here was that they meet with each other once a week to go over their budget. Most people will sit down on a monthly basis to go over this. You could almost hear the glass shatter as I came to the realization that if you only sit down once a month and are setting a monthly budget, it really doesn't do you any good… Routines We talk about the importance of having routines while traveling. Although it can be difficult because they are never in the same place for long, Open Roading provides us with some insight on some things you can do stay consistent. For example, you can always wake up early, schedule a meeting, and exercise or take the dog for a walk (weather permitting!) YouTube Open Roading has made three attempts with YouTube after getting burned out and pumping the brakes a few times. In their latest effort, they have been met with some pretty big success. We discuss what they have done differently this time around as well as some of the reasons they believe their channel didn't take off at first. And much more! Chapters · 00:00 Introduction · 04:30 What is Work Camping? · 08:00 Gate Guarding · 09:15 Work Camping Requirements · 13:00 Favorite/Least Favorite Work Camping Jobs · 16:00 Balancing Work Camping with Exploring · 17:15 Biggest Challenges to Start Traveling · 18:45 How Did You Know When You Were Ready to Hit the Road? · 20:30 What Adjustments Did You Make to Continue Traveling? · 23:30 Delicioats “PATH” · 24:30 What Are Your Biggest Travel Frustrations? · 26:15 What Are Your Most Helpful Travel Routines? · 27:30 What Do You Love Most About Your Travel Lifestyle? · 29:45 How Long Do You Plan on Continuing Full Time Travel For? · 30:45 Budgeting · 35:00 What Are Your Favorite Money Saving Travel Hacks? · 39:30 What Is It Like Traveling with a Bunny & Dog? · 42:00 What Has Been Your Coolest Travel Experience? · 45:15 What Can You & Can't You Live Without? · 48:15 What Tools Should Every RV Owner Have? · 49:15 How Have You Been Successful Your 3rd Time Around with YouTube? · 53:00 How to Start Planning · 54:45 Influential YouTube Channels Open Roading on Social · YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OpenRoading · Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/openroading Videos From Open Roading · 5 Years of RV Life Cost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVHSnw-1jI4 · Solar Setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5De9SPEddfc · Clouds Rest Hike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX0dv05Z6yA&t=683s · Gypsum Cave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ajkUK1Iarg&t=135s · How Much We Make on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5h49_LH4Ag Work Camping · Kamper News: https://www.workamper.com/ · Workamping Jobs with Wages: https://www.facebook.com/groups/workampingjobswithwages/ · Workampers: https://www.facebook.com/groups/weloveworkamping/ · The UNBEETABLE Experience: https://www.theunbeetableexperience.com/ · Mackinac Mill Creek Campground: https://www.campmackinaw.com/ Budgeting · You Need a Budget: https://kalynbrooke.com/refer/YNAB Camping/Boondocking · Harvest Host: https://www.harvesthosts.com/ · Boondockers Welcome: https://www.boondockerswelcome.com/ Internet · Starlink Roam Plan: https://www.starlink.com/roam Favorite Experiences · The Presidential Chain Trail: https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/new-hampshire/presidential-traverse-trail · Channel Islands National Park: https://www.nps.gov/chis/index.htm What Can't You Live Without? · Portable Waste Tank · Solar Panels What Have You Learned You Don't Need? · Extra Clothes YouTube Channels · Less Junk More Journey: https://www.youtube.com/@LessJunkMoreJourney · Kara and Nate: https://www.youtube.com/@KaraandNate · Flying the Nest: https://www.youtube.com/@flyingthenest Books · Alyssa Padgett RVing Across America: https://amzn.to/43bcV7B · (Commissions may be earned through purchases on this page) Music · Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains Disclaimer *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Transcript Host: Joe and Kalyn, welcome to a travel path podcast. Guest: Thanks so much for having us on. Yes, it's so exciting to be here with you. Host: Yeah, we're looking forward to getting to know you guys. Um, so we know you guys on Instagram as Open Roading. You guys turned a year-long road trip into just about five years full-time in your fifth wheel. You post content on your YouTube channel, everything from RV how-tos to work camping, and very detailed budgeting videos, which I'll tell our audience right now to make sure they pay close attention to once that part comes. Um, but no pressure on you guys. Um, and I know you're very hard to miss driving down the road with your fifth wheel and your setup with your motorcycle attached to the front of your truck, so clearly, anything is possible. Um, but yeah, why don't we start by having you share a little about yourselves and letting your audience know what your current travel lifestyle looks like. Guest: Sure. So, we both grew up in Upstate New York. That's where we met, and then we ended up transitioning down to Florida, just love the Sunshine State, and that's when we started thinking about a potential travel lifestyle. She says "we," she means her; I was the one that started the conversation, like, "Hey, wouldn't this be cool?" And Joseph was still working at the time, so he was in the news industry as a videographer. And um, eventually, I was, you know, working on my online business. I had a blog that I was writing on different articles and starting to earn some money with that, and it got to the point where it was a full-time income, and Joseph could come home and work on it with me. And that was kind of the catalyst for like, okay, like, can I convince you now that we can get an RV? We don't, you know, have jobs that are tied outside our house. We can work from anywhere with a good cell phone connection. And so in 2019, that's when we started off. Yeah, and it was a whirlwind for that first year. We were traveling like every five days, and because we didn't have much black tank capacity, basically, we always had to dump and fill, so it was like every five days, why not move somewhere else? And we were trying to do the YouTube content all at the same time, and we really got burnt out over that first year. And then we tried again with YouTube a little while later, got burnt out again. So, our travel style now is a lot different than it used to be. Like now, we are trying to settle into a travel style where we only move every about two weeks, maybe 10 days if there's a reason. But two weeks is kind of what we're trying to get into, where we can kind of settle into a place, still do our work, you know, do a 30, 40-hour-a-week job from the RV, and then continue on. Host: Very cool. I'm not sure if you noticed there was a thumbs-down sign that got sent. I don't know if that was you or me, but that we were not giving you a thumbs down. I don't know where that came from, but that was weird. Guest: We have somebody watching, so weird. Host: Yeah, well, great. So, every two weeks or so, that's the path we want to take on this next trip. Is it... it would be a lot more relaxing going at that pace as opposed to getting up and going every... I mean, we were going every like two days when we were traveling. But our next approach will be closer to a week, maybe two weeks if we're lucky. Um, but you guys do a lot of work camping. What is that? Or maybe not so much anymore 'cause you guys are done with that now. We'll get into that later on, but what is work camping? Guest: We didn't actually start out work camping. We actually... because we were self-funded by my online business, and then Covid hit and the economy tanked, and we realized that our funding was not working and not as much anymore. And so that's where we started to look at how can we stay on the road as much as possible and also earn money with it. So, work camping is basically you work for someone else, like a campground, a state park, or even agricultural work with the beet harvest. And they are providing a place for you to stay for free, sometimes more. Resorts offer a discounted site. They don't exactly provide free housing. And then some jobs, you'll also get an hourly wage on top of the free housing. So, it's a really neat way to be able to still travel around the country, but yet you have these seasonal jobs and commitments throughout the year. Host: And how are you finding these jobs? Guest: Oh, this is all you. Yeah, there's a few different websites that I really, really like. So, one is Camper News, which is with a K, camper with a K, and sign up for their newsletter because they send out once-a-week emails organized by state, what kind of jobs are out there. And there is anything from, "We need help in the camp store for a campground in northern Michigan," to "Python control in the Everglades." So, you get a wide variety of opportunities through that. So, that's probably my favorite. And then, I would recommend two work camping Facebook groups, which is Work Camping Jobs with Wages and Work Campers. Both of those, people that are like management and owners of campgrounds or even farms that are wanting ranch hands, they are posting in there, like, "Hey, we'd love a camper to come for the summer or the winter season to work with us." And I think most of those, you can correct me if I'm wrong, are like resorts, campgrounds, ranch hands, stuff like that. Gate guarding isn't so much in that. You'd have to look specifically. We've been doing some gate guarding for the past three months. You kind of have to look for the gate guarding Facebook groups for those. And then the beet harvest is kind of its own animal. They have... it's a... if you just search the unbeetable experience M, um, that's a one-month-long work camping gig in several different locations across the northern US for sugar beet harvest. But look specifically for either of those, and you'll find those as well. Host: And are you able to negotiate at all, or is there so much demand for it that on the work side, that you kind of... you're stuck with what they're giving you? Guest: We never negotiated. We did with one, and we didn't get the job. So either we're really bad at negotiating, or... But I do think there is room, specifically in maybe the gate guarding, but it depends on demand at the time. So, in the summertime for gate guarding, we've been told it pays more because nobody wants to be down in Texas in the middle of the summer. But in the wintertime, there's a lot of people down there who are looking for jobs, and so actually, the pay goes down. And you can easily have a job if you're not taking what they offer, but you can still be picky about the jobs that you take. Like, you don't work for a specific company and have to go to each rig. It's they'll call you and say, "Hey, we have this gate available for you. Would you like it?" And you can say yes or no based on your criteria. And if people aren't familiar with what gate guarding is... Basically, it depends on the job that you have, but it's usually for the energy industry, the electric companies, or oil patch drilling sites. And you're basically just like checking people in and out, making sure that only the right people are there to work and keep the people out that are not supposed to be there. And our recent gate guarding job that we just finished was actually just security for an electric company, just watching their equipment, so we didn't have to check anyone in and out for that one. Host: Very cool to get started with work camping. Are there any general requirements or certifications you need just to get started, or does that all depend on the job category? Guest: It really depends on the job category, but I think the number one thing is a self-contained RV, one that has its own water tanks and waste tanks. We saw many, many work camping jobs that were just like "no tents," a lot of times no vans, no truck campers, unless maybe you could prove that it was completely self-contained. So, I would say that's the big one. Other than that, you just kind of look at each individual job. Yeah, and for gate guarding specifically, you actually do need a Level II security course for Texas at least.nYeah, for Texas, you need to take that, you need to take a drug test and screening. There's a security application so there's a little bit more involved with that one. Host: Okay, and then for the python control, you just can't be afraid of snakes, right? Guest: Yeah, um, crazy. Host: So, it sounds like... I was going to ask, does the work camping dictate where you travel, or the other way around? But it sounds like you're finding out where these jobs are and then you're heading in that direction. Guest: Yeah, that's what we try to do, I guess. At least like, what area do we want to explore and be in and would be satisfied to be stationary for six months. Host: Is that the typical time frame, six months? Guest: It depends a lot on what the job is, like if it's a seasonal campground, they're going to want you for the entire season. So, like, your Florida campgrounds are going to want you for the entire winter and up in Michigan, they wanted you from April through September or October. So, we specifically wanted to go to Michigan because we wanted to spend the summer near Mackinac Island and then that was close to the Beet Harvest. So, we just kind of did our planning ahead. We're like, well, we know we can get a job at the Beet Harvest because we did that the year before. So, we went from there to North Dakota and then for our goal that you talked about earlier, like, we were like, well, to make the most money to save would be gate guarding so we knew we'd need to head to different locations. Like, the agricultural jobs like with the Beet Harvest, that all depends on the harvest, the length of time, like how good is the weather for you to be able to go harvest. So, it typically takes two to three weeks for the Beet Harvest. There's more volunteer positions with state parks and national park services that usually require like a one to two month commitment at a time. And then the gate guarding, I mean they ask for a 30-day commitment and our first job was done after 12 days and then the next job lasted like 83 days so that's more of a wide range there. So, you just never know. Host: I feel like we're talking a lot about work camping, but I'm interested in it. It sounds... I hadn't really heard much about it. So, about six months roughly? I mean, it depends a lot on what the job is, but how soon before you start working are you looking and applying for those jobs? Guest: That's a good question. A lot of it depends on the season, to be honest. If you're applying for a winter job in Florida, Texas, Arizona at one of the resorts, not so much the gate guarding, but those resort-style RV park jobs generally a year in advance, you want to start looking. It doesn't mean you might not be able to get one a couple weeks before, you know, because somebody didn't come or somebody had committed and just backed out. But about a year before for those, for the summer jobs, a month before, there you'll still see places hiring, again, depending on the location. If it's a very in-demand location, they're going to have their stuff down right earlier, but cool, good enough. Host: What have been your favorite and least favorite jobs? Guest: That's a really tough one. So, I did the majority of the work camping because I was trying to bring in a second income while Kalyn was working on turning her business around. It's tough because my favorite job was the one at the campground in Michigan, but that one also was just something that it was like meeting our monthly expenses, you know, it was just kind of there to help supplement. It wasn't helping us put money aside for our future goals. So, when we finished the work camping job in Michigan, we kind of felt like we were still at the same place we were when we started that job, as opposed to like making progress financially. So, I really got to work with people, got to have front-facing customer service type stuff which I really enjoy. So, it was my favorite, but if I'm trying to save money for something then I would go with the gate guarding just because it's the easiest way, you're not having any expenditures really, you're just sitting there and making money, almost printing money in our second gate guarding job. But the first gate guarding job, I think, was our least favorite. I actually worked that one because it was a 24/7. So, we're there at the rig, we cannot leave together, we, it's like a constant, no time off. He's either sleeping or working, I'm either sleeping or working, and it just, even though it only lasted 12 days, was so exhausting. And it wasn't a busy gate. There are oil rigs we were checking in between 40 and 60 cars a day. There are rigs called fracking rigs where they have like over 100 cars or 150 cars coming in and out a day that you're checking in and out. So, we had an easy gate and we were exhausted after 12 days. Host: Yeah, no, it sounds like it's a great opportunity, like you said, you were working full time, Kalyn, and then once your online business slowed down a little bit, you picked up this gig and it sounds like it's great for someone either starting out without that income or in your situation, you had to make that adjustment. And even if you have, it's even better if you have somebody who is working full time and then you have someone else like a spouse or a partner who is doing the work camping and you're getting a free site so your housing is basically free and you have that other source of income. Guest: I did want to chime in there, are probably the majority of work camping positions look for couples. It doesn't mean the singles aren't out there because we're a prime example of that, like almost all our positions were singles, but Beat Harvest prefers couples over singles. A lot of the campgrounds prefer couples just because it's an RV site that they're providing and they want to have two people working from it. But don't let that deter you if you're a hardworking individual from applying anyway and saying, "Hey, I'm a super hardworking individual. I'm willing to work X number of hours a week and you can find a job." Host: Were you able to have a good balance of kind of work and play when you're doing that? Like, in other words, would you work at this place for however long you were assigned that location then would you take some time off in between and explore? Or how did you balance your work and your travel lifestyle? Guest: Yeah, that's what we did with the work camping. I felt like with the Michigan campground, it was a very nice balance of working and then being able to explore the area. When it came to like Beet Harvest and gate guarding, it was more you're just exploring in between driving to and from actual job locations. So, like when Beet Harvest was in North Dakota and the gate guarding, which was the next job was in Texas, so we kind of stopped on a couple places on the way down and then it was heads-down work again until gate guarding was done. Host: You touched on it a little bit and I do want to dial this back to where this thing started because point of this podcast is we're helping people who want to reach their travel goals. They haven't quite gotten there yet, but they're listening to this because they want to get to traveling and reach their travel goals. So, you were starting out, you had this dream to go traveling, you were working on your blog, and you were, you ultimately had a full-time income that could support your travel lifestyle. So that's how you were funding your travels, yes. But what were some of the biggest challenges you faced in getting on the road? Guest: This is kind of an interesting one. I feel like it was telling people that we were changing our lifestyle. It's a big hurdle to be able to go to people that you had commitments to and be like, "You know, we're selling our house, we're leaving the area, we're going to be traveling full time." And then it's even a little bit tougher too when you say, "We're doing it for like a year and then we'll see what happens." And now we're almost, you know, five years in and we're still not done. So, it's definitely having that conversation with people because they don't always understand like why can't you just do one to two vacations a year like normal people, you know, and have a house, an actual house. So that was probably the most challenging part. And then I would say on the road, staying on the road, something that I wish we had known before going on is that especially when you work for yourself, your income can really ebb and flow. And have a game plan, have multiple streams of income, you know, if you're getting on the road because you've spent years building a savings for a specific number of months, what are you going to do after that to fund? Just kind of like having a future game plan in mind of how you're going to be able to maintain staying on the road. It's like getting on the road is one thing but then being able to stay traveling is another. Host: How did you know you were ready? Was it just a matter of how much you were making with your business? Did you have a number in mind and you said, "We're ready"? Or how did you know when it was time to hit the road? Guest: I think when the right RV popped up. Yeah, we had a list of things that needed to happen, and one by one, they just started happening. We had a property in New York that we didn't think would sell because of the economy in New York, and it had been on the market for a long time, and it sold. Then we had an RV. We wanted to get an RV, but we had a specific list of, like, it needs to be this, it needs to be in our price range, which was not super high, and it popped up. The couple that was selling it was like, we told them we can't buy it until we sell our house, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, no problem." You know, and they actually sent us the deed in Florida before we even paid them a dime, so that we could get it registered. And it was just a super awesome couple, and like, everything just started falling into place. I'm like, "Oh, now's the time." And it solidifies that you're making the right decision, too. Host: Sure. And once that house sells, you don't have much of a choice. Guest: Yeah, now that doesn't mean we didn't have like nights of like tears or like, did we do the right thing, or freak out or anything like that. We totally went through all of that the first couple of months of travel, just like as we were getting used to everything. Host: Well, I'm glad you say that because I've had those exact same thoughts, too, so it makes me feel better. Did you have to make any adjustments? So your original plan was to do a one-year-long road trip. You decided to extend it, obviously. Were there any adjustments you had to make to extend that and to keep going? Guest: We had to, um, because we wanted to, like, Boondock more, I would say. We invested in... This is going to be like TMI, but, like, a portable black tank so that we could go longer because that was one of the things, like we had mentioned before, we were traveling, we thought this was going to only be one year, so that's where we're traveling every, like, four to five days. Um, and then we realized we wanted to slow down, we wanted this to be a lifestyle, and so we started buying things that would help us stay in places longer. Um, so things like that, yeah, the portable black tank, a macerator pump, a, uh, we have water storage that we have in the back of the RV, those are the only things that we really, we did buy a generator too, yeah, we bought a small generator, we have a, we have, we call it a minimal solar setup. It keeps us going, but it's not anywhere near what like some of these people have where the whole roof is covered in solar panels. Um, but the other transition I would say happened longer than a year, and that actually had to do with the work camping and everything, where we realized over the past year that if we want to keep doing this, we need to bring in another income stream. And so that has come down to, uh, YouTube and treating it as a full-time job to get that second income stream in so that we don't end up off the road because we literally did almost end up off the road uh, this last year. Host: Yeah, yeah, keeps it exciting. Guest: Oh, yeah. When, so when your back's against the wall like you try to do everything, yeah, now you got to find a way. Host: You'd mentioned you like the water jugs. You, you, it seems like when we watch your videos, you have a couple of almost unique and original ideas. Like the one I'm thinking of is you have that it's almost like a 2x4 and a string of like 5-gallon water drums in the back of your truck for extra water. Do you think of that yourselves or where do you come up with these ideas? Guest: That some people transport water with a like a 60-gallon water bladder. Some people transport water with a like a 60-gallon water bladder, to bring it from point A to point B. My problem with that is I can't, um, I can't functionally keep a 60-gallon water bladder full in the back of the pickup while on a travel day. Like, I want to have the RV full of water, and then I want to have extra storage. And so that's why we went with those, uh, with those, uh, six-gallon jugs in the back. And the 2x4 between it is literally when those jugs are empty and we haul the RV, they blow right out, like without the RV, they stay there fine. But when the RV is there, some wind suction comes in and just sucks them right out, uh, so the 2x4 is literally just to keep them from flying away. Host: Did you learn that the hard way? Guest: Yes, yes, on a, on a, like, 10-degree day. And so when The Jug hit the pavement, it shattered basically, yeah. Host: Oh, man. Oh, it was full. Guest: No. No, it was, it was empty, but it was, it was just so brittle. Brittle plastic and 60 miles an hour, just broken into a few pieces. Host: Hey, guys, I wanted to take a quick break to tell you about Delicia oats. We've been enjoying Delicia oats for many years, and they have helped fuel us for those extra long hikes. They are flavored oats that come in a pouch and are very easy to set up. Just add water, give it a shake, and let it sit overnight and enjoy the next morning. Or you can add boiling water if you like them served hot. We've also added them to our morning smoothie, or I'll sprinkle some into my yogurt for some extra flavor and to help fill me up. You can make them in less than a minute, and there is no cleanup, which is huge for us on the road. Now, if you're like me, the first question you'll ask is how much added sugar is there? And here's a big one for me: no added sugar. They come in a variety of flavors. My personal favorite is Cherry Chocolate. Enjoy them for yourself by placing an order at Delicia oats.com and use the coupon code PATH at checkout. That's Delicia oats.com, D-L-I-C-I-O-A-T-S.com, and use the coupon code PATH. Host: Well, on that note, we'll fast forward a little bit, talking about your past. We'll fast forward to kind of the future and leading up to where you are now. What have been some of the biggest frustrations you faced and currently face while traveling? Guest: I would say our current struggle is balancing the work and the play side of things because, like, we've got sort of three types of days. We've got work days, we've got travel days, which will take a lot out of you, and then you have adventure days and exploring days. And so trying to make sure that, okay, we need to get in like five to six good work days that doesn't leave... that leaves room for maybe one travel day a week or, you know, one adventure day a week. Kind of have to choose, so it's not... I used to go into a location saying we have a list of like 10 to 12 things that we have to hit, and that's not enjoyable because we're so stressed trying to make time for it all. And now it's like I have a list of 10 to 12 things, but it's like we've prioritized them now, okay, these are the top three, and if we have time, we'll go to the next one on the list. And that's made a little bit easier. And this is somewhat Creator-focused but also being able to have an adventure day that isn't for YouTube. So getting to a location being like, okay, we want to put this in a YouTube video, this particular hike or whatever it is, but then we also want to go on a hike together where we don't have the stress of also trying to create content. That was something we failed on our first attempt to, maybe second attempt at YouTube, is we were just trying to film everything, which was just adding extra stress because we weren't actually having a day to ourselves. Host: Yeah, I know, Kalyn, you have your business. It's you're helping women with planning, scheduling, and routines throughout their day, so clearly, I would assume like routines are your forte. Have you discovered any routines that have helped you specifically with travel? Guest: Yeah, and we're also like implementing routines now that we're done gate guarding and work camping in general and we're on the same schedule because we were just on opposite shifts for so long. But the key to staying on the same page has been weekly meetings. As we plan our week, we go through okay, where are we traveling this week? What are our adventure days this week? What are our deadlines for work stuff this week? And making sure that we're on the same page, that everything's getting done. And then like a quick five-minute meeting in the morning. But I would say morning routines too have been really good for us. Just getting up at the same time, taking our dog Trinity for a walk or going running, and having breakfast, and then getting to work and just kind of having that stability because on the road, you don't have a lot of that all the time. You know, things are changing. We don't have a laundry day because it really depends when we can get to town, you know, to do laundry. So there's not those routines, but we try to establish structure, sure, where we can. Host: So you put the routines in where you can control. You can't control where you are or what's around you, but you can control when you wake up, you can control those meetings wherever they are, um, and just that gives you more structure throughout your day. That's great. Um, what do you guys love most about your travel lifestyle? Guest: I love the fact that we have a different backyard every couple of weeks. So we are very active people. When we're in our best element, we like going on hikes and exploring places. And when you're in the same place for years at a time, you run out of hiking trails, at least within a short distance. So the fact that we get to a new place, it's like, okay, now everything behind us is new, even just taking the dog for a walk. It's going to be a completely new area that we're exploring, even before going on a hike. And I think the other thing is just like getting to get a broader perspective on the country as a whole. And someday, maybe the world if we ever do any world travel. But just being able to see like, oh, this is where your food comes from, to sound super simple, like I grew up in the country so I was aware of some of that. But like you go to different states and see how different people live, and it just gives a broader perspective on how our country works and how people work and how people can work together. Host: Same thing, Kalyn? Guest: Yes. Sorry. Sorry. I was like, he's taking that question. If he wasn't going to mention the broader perspective, I was going to chime in with that one. But yeah, even things that we knew nothing about, like, su... Yeah, we had no idea there were sugar beets that people literally were eating sugar from sugar beets. So that's like a whole thing that you learn, the oil industry, you know, all the workers that come together and the things they do on the oil patch. So it's... It's... you really get to see like the American work ethic. Host: Yeah, that, and I think going back to work camping, that's... that gives you those experiences at a deeper level. Like, yeah, you're in these areas, you can see things kind of from a distance, but when you're actually working those jobs, doing the gate guarding and doing the beet harvest, gives you even more of an appreciation for those things. That's great. You had mentioned world travels in your future, so how long do you plan on continuing this travel lifestyle for? Guest: It's unknown. It's unknown. As long as we are capable of, and Kalyn and, you know, things align, eventually, we'll probably transition into more like 80% travel and 20% at some sort of home base that we can come back to, especially if we start adding international trips, um, just to have a place where you have the same doctor's appointments and dentists and, and can come back and kind of recover before you go out again. So that's what we see happening in our future. I think no matter what it looks like, travel will always be a part of our lifestyle. Host: Yeah, that's great. We'll transition, we'll switch to budgeting tips, and I'll just remind our audience you're going to want to bring your pen and paper for this section here because you guys post on your YouTube and your Instagram, you guys are very thorough. You have not only monthly expenses but you break it down what you're spending money on, you have how much you're making with YouTube with work camping, your whole Alaska budget. We'll dig into. So breaking it down, stripping it down to kind of a monthly or weekly budget, what does that look like? Guest: Well, obviously, it's going to be different for everyone, but for us personally, for someone who tries to be really budget conscious, doesn't have like a truck payment or an RV payment, and also tries to do as many free activities as possible, we spend about $3,500 to $4,000 a month. And that includes everything. It includes health insurance, vehicle insurance. I think sometimes when people say, like, well, you know, this is what you can find that you'll typically spend in the RV lifestyle, they're not necessarily including everything that maybe $3,500 to $4,000 roughly. Host: And keep in mind, everyone, that's without the RV, that's without the truck payment either. Guest: Which we don't... we don't have any payments on those. Host: Yes, that's outside of that. So if you were going to finance just... you want to factor that into was that budget a little bit tighter when you started out? Have you been able to loosen that up since you've... own your business? Guest: It's actually a little bit tighter now because... I mean, everyone's feeling the effects of inflation and we recently did a... um... five years of RV life costs and at the beginning of RV life, we were spending probably around $350 for groceries, which was just food. And now we're struggling to come in under 500 a month for the two of us. So it's not like we've changed our practices, I think it's just that inflation coming through. Host: Yeah, yeah. Do you have any budget apps or tools that have helped you track your expenses? Guest: We highly, highly recommend You Need A Budget. Um, it is an annual fee, I think it's like last I paid was like $106. So it is a little pricey, but it takes... it connects all your credit cards and bank accounts, import the transactions automatically, very easy to reconcile and categorize things. And I think it's why we've been able to stay on top of all those numbers because we know exactly like where they're being attributed, um, so that would... I absolutely love that app and maybe they'll sponsor us in the future. We'd be totally game for that. I just love that you keep saying we track, we track this, we... I'm the one hiccup in the budgeting process. She does it. It takes her like 15 minutes every Friday to check in, do everything, and probably 10 of those 15 minutes are locating receipts that I've misplaced. Host: Yeah, I don't miss the days of scanning receipts and to get the copy online, and yeah, that's just painful. So, I was going to ask, my next question was how much time, so you're spending about 15 minutes a week, so about an hour a month, sounds like you've come up with a system where doing it per week is more efficient than just holding everything for the end of the month. Guest: Yeah, and because you can check, because you check in more often, you can pivot quicker, you know, if you see something like, "Oh, you know, our eating out spending is getting a little out of control," and we're halfway through the month, we know to rain it in and eat more at home. So, the more check-ins you can have, I think, I mean if you want a check-in daily, if you feel like that gives you peace of mind, do it daily, but we found like, I've found that Weekly a good Cadence. Host: That is a good point yeah checking in once a week because if you set a weekly or a monthly budget of you know 300 bucks for going out to eat but you only touch touch base every month then it's kind of pointless so actually doing that per week and then yeah that's a good tip right there yeah awesome um what has been some of the best travel hacks you've come across that have helped you save money? Guest: Boondocking one 1,00% boondocking we have so you can Boondock people Boondock with generators I don't recommend it but you can get a solar setup for your RV uh and it doesn't have to be the $50,000 solar setup like we set up our solar system I installed it myself so I did save myself some money there but for $6,000 we didn't have to use a generator our whole first couple years um we if we ever got close to the batteries running low which was rare we would get a campground for a night plug in get everything back up but but um but now we even have just a I think it's like a $800 or even less $300 generator that we can just use to charge us up if we have a couple cloudy days in a row but for that $66,000 we have 700 Watts almost 700 watts of solar and three 100 amp hour batteries um an inverter converter Char inverter charger converter something um does everything clearly he's an expert yes clearly and uh but it has run flawless for the 5 years that that we've been rving and you don't need all the fancy smancy now we also don't have uh some power sucking things like we don't have electronic uh stoves like it's a gas stove and and things like that and we also don't have a giant TV uh if you have a giant TV and that's a necessity then you might need more battery I don't know how much they take and we have the typical RV gas gas electric fridge that we just r on gas for we boondocking nice and I'm sure there's a video on there we'll Link in the show notes that you guys posted and you said $50,000 that's how much those things cost be50 Grand think that's a little I've seen I've seen I've seen at least $25,000 solar setups that people have like when their whole roof is covered in solar panels and they've got 12 batteries underneath like as a general rule when we started rving as a general rule 100 amp hours of battery was $1,000 that has gone down depending on the brand of battery you get um but yeah you can you can get expensive in a hurry with a solar setup. Host: Sounds like it yeah um and you did it for six grand setting up yourself the um so you talked about boondocking are you boondocking because obviously that replaces your camping expense how often are you boondocking when you're when you reference that $3,500 to $4,000 monthly? Guest: Um budget most of the time yeah it's we we Boondock unless we absolutely cannot it is obviously harder when you're closer to cities or East Coast or on the East Coast we will like stay probably an hour and a half sometimes two hours outside of where we want to go just so we can Boondock because it's it saves more money to even pay the gas to get there in back than it is in the campground fees that are usually near CI so we do that and there's also um Harvest host and boondockers welcome that you can take advantage of as well um so staying in people's driveways and sometimes it's fun to like just meet new people and and get to know others on the road so that's an option too. Host: Wow so that's almost 4,000 you're spending a month and that's really not including um housing or or finding a place to stay so your biggest expense is probably fuel groceries and you said your health insurance? Guest:Yep yep health insurance I was when we have starlink turned on for internet then our internet sell bill is expensive um because starlink itself is is $150 a month but we've opted for the ram plan so you can turn it off um like every month you can decide whether you want to keep it going or turn it off and so if we're on the East Coast where we have Verizon sell signal and T-Mobile sell signal then we'll turn it off and save that money there well when we have all three running that's going to be about 300 a month to 4 just for just for Internet yep. Host: Wow yeah like I said very thorough thank you guys for sharing so much detail on everything that's that should give everyone a really good idea of how much this lifestyle can cost um so you guys travel with Trinity your dog and Cody your bunny what's it like traveling with two pets like that and do you want to share how you came across Trinity or rather how Trinity found you? Guest: Yeah, that's, yeah, CU, she was at an oil pad for our first gate guarding job, and as people were showing us the ropes, we're like, "Is this your dog? Whose dog is it?" And they're like, "Nope, it just kind of hangs around here." And we got to know some of the workers, and they're like, "Yeah, she's been hanging around here for a few months," and she just seemed to get really attached to us. So we provided her water, um, she slept in our chair, she slept in our outdoor chair, and started providing her some food. But the problem is, we were like, we have a rabbit, and dogs and rabbits don't necessarily get along, so that's one of the things where really, really, really worried about if we kept her. And we weren't looking for a dog. Um, we've always had rabbits since we've been married. So we actually ended up, like, outside the shelter, and we couldn't go through with it. We just couldn't drop her off because we obviously didn't want her to stay there on the oil pad trying to get scraps from trucks and sleeping by Slo pipe and like we wanted to get her a good home. Um, and yeah, we couldn't go through with the shelter, and so like, well, we'll give it a shot. And we just slowly introduced them. And now it's to the place where we don't completely 100% trust her alone with the rabbit, like we put barriers in place, doors pens just just to make sure. But that's not based on her, that's just based on better part of wisdom, knowing that instinct is a thing. She's never done anything like Cody literally will jump off the couch onto her sleeping, yeah, and she'll jump up, you know, like what happened, but there's not like anger or growl or anything. So, and so it's nice that they are able to to live together and it also makes travel days a lot easier too because like Trinity can lay on the back seat of the truck and Cody's kind of in the in the back of the truck on the bottom on the floor um, and he can hop around and they're totally fine. So, it worked out really well and we love her and she's a great addition of the family. Host: That's funny, unlikely companions. Guest: Yes. Host: I feel like if if if we brought our dog into a camper with a rabbit that place would get flipped upside down faster than we could even imagine. Guest: I think that would happen if a cat strolled into the camper she's not a cat fan. Host: What has been your coolest travel experience so far? Guest: H, we have two, can we have two? Host: Yep. Guest: I would, you want to do yours? Sure. So, we did, uh, was this two years ago, yeah, we did did close to your neck of the woods actually we did the presidential chain Trail in New Hampshire in the White Mountains. It's about a 21 22 mile hike and we set off at 5 6 in the morning and we had high hopes that we were going to be done by Sundown uh, we finished at about 4:30 the following morning um, Kalyn injured her knee about halfway through uh, we got up to the summit of Mount Washington and there actually is a tourist area there in roads and and we considered like do we jump off and it was at that we try to hit your ride back ride and Kalyn was at that point she's like no we I'm gonna do this I'm never gonna try this again we're gonna do it so she hoofed another 11 miles um through the dark for most of that and then we we got back and when we got down to the bottom her mom actually texted her and she's like oh I'm so glad you're back it looks like it's about to rain and we had the motorcycle and so we're like well we got to book it to our Campground so we booked it there and just the feeling of accomplishment I actually got back to the RV and just kind of like crashed and it was like at first it was like we will never do anything like that ever again and then after you kind of got over the exhaustion you're just like the feeling of doing something really hard um because we like Seven Summits yeah and we weren't expecting it to take that long we weren't expecting you know so we had a lot of roadblocks along the way but to come off the other side and just be like wow we accomplished something really hard was was huge. Yeah, and I would say mine is um at Channel Islands National Park which is off the coast of California I didn't even know existed it existed until like a couple years ago and you have to take a boat out to it and there is absolutely no cell service at all no like real buildings nothing um and so we tent came camped out there overnight and there's also a really cute little island fox that like run they run around there they're only native to that Island um and we'll get into your tent if you leave the door open so you have to be careful about that but you have on one side of the island these massive Cliffs with the Pacific Ocean beneath on the other side there's you know Rocky beaches you can see seals swimming it was just a really really neat experience in a national park that like I said we had not heard of and then for it to you know become like one of our favorites and a day and a half was not enough time. Host: It leaves you with more more to do I was going to add that's the worst possible time to get hurt on a hike is when you're halfway done you're halfway it's not like three quarters or a quarter the way you're halfway so you're going the entire length back you guys you guys are Troopers and you finish it up that's awesome good job yeah after spending just about five years traveling has there been something you've learned besides Internet that you can't live without? Guest: We can live without the portable waste but we can't really... I feel like we can't live without the solar panels. Yes, that would probably be my answer, just because of the sheer amount of boondocking that we do. That would... We don't want to listen to generator noise, so the solar panels allow us to be able to have a peaceful time in the middle of where... Host: Yeah, very cool. So, you mentioned the portable black tank, so you're still using the same RV you started out with, I take? Guest: Yes, oh yeah, yeah, it's a 2005 JCO Designer. We remodeled the inside; we're in the process of updating some of the outside decals and whatnot, but yeah, it's... it's a beast, it's sturdy. We don't... I'm not going to say we're never gonna buy a new RV, but a lot of times when I see people with new RVs and their suspensions breaking and stuff like that are break, I'm just like, you know, this 2005 RV is looking better every day, very solid. Host: Yeah, they don't build them like they used to. Um, contrary to... Guest: I hate it that you can say that about 2005, like when somebody says that it's supposed to be like 1950 something. Host: I know, it's crazy. Like my truck's 2013 and it's like, it's... it's over 10 years old. Guest: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you look at it, it's like you look, it's, you think it's like 5 years old. But yeah, 2005, it's what, 19 years old? Yeah, yeah, in 20 years I think is called vintage. Yeah, our RV is one year from vintage. Host: Yeah, we had a 2002, we were going to, like, redo it and just make it vintage, where 20... it was, it was rough looking, so we just said it's vintage, yeah, exactly. Has there been something you've learned that you don't need while traveling? Guest: There's... I would say we brought more clothes than we thought we had needed, especially like fancier clothes, and we just didn't end up wearing them. I like... we're not fancy people, no. So I, like, those, I think we ended up just giving all to Goodwill. I think maybe I kept one dress in case of something. But yeah, I don't know why you packed those. And if you have like sports equipment that it's like, "Oh, this is something I will do once a year." Like, I'm not a golfer, but I had some golf clubs, and I was like, "There's no point in having these if I'm going to use them once. I can rent clubs somewhere, you know?" Um, now we have paddleboards, but we use those more than once a year. Like, we just are very intentional about the sports equipment we have with us. Host: It's a good rule of thumb: if you're not going to use it more than once a year, you can just rent it when you get to that destination. What tools should every RV owner have? Guest: Oh, that's a... I hate this question because I'm not a tool person and I need to be. Um, but the one I'm using the most all the time is... is my drill. And like, I have a drill and a cordless drill. Like, those come in handy so often. I've got... I've got some drawers I need to fix and the idea of trying to do those with a like a hand screwdriver... I know it's like the most basic tool you can say, but if you don't have that in your toolbox, I think you should start with that. Host: Sure. I was going to say WD40. I feel like you're using that in like every other... Guest: I do use that a lot, on everything. Maybe that's the thing you can't live without. Host: A few more questions before we wrap this thing up and I can't believe we're already at at 50 minutes. I do want to get into this YouTube thing a little bit because for someone who's looking to get into traveling full-time and getting into documenting and vlogging and creating content, um, you had posted on your YouTube channel that this was your third attempt. You had tried twice, didn't pan out, and this time you've been met with some pretty good success. Um, what's been different this time? Guest: There's a lot of things. We are now like almost five years in, so our first year when we were trying to document and learn RV life, like, it was too much, too much new at one time and traveling so fast that we burned out quickly. Now we've slowed that down. The other thing was style. We wanted to make content around the locations we were going to and taking people along because we thought they'd just be interested in the hike because it was a hike. And we've learned that we are going to be primarily in the entertainment space and so we need to be more of a vlog style. And so that's what's completely different this third time around is it's much more doing projects around the RV, running errands, taking people with us to go grocery shopping and doing laundry and seeing what real life on the road looks like in addition to the locations. But we're very intentional about keeping those segments short and snappy. I feel like, yeah, we definitely have a lot more in terms of editing of like cutting and and making things shorter so that we can storytelling the shortest amount of time possible. I think a good example of that is if you look at our video about Cloud's rest uh, in yosity, yeah, I got that park right you look at that it's it's one video about one hike and it's about eight minutes long or so and then compare that to our video about uh, what's the thumbnail say it's New Normal I don't remember decision big decision and we explored some jips some capes and that and the whole video is about 20 our dog is snoring I'm sorry it's about 20 minutes it's about 20 minutes long and we have a cave exploring segment that is about two to three minutes long of that whole video and we still want to we still want to take people along for the journey through those things but we have realized that the attention span for those types of things it is much less so just keep things moving. Host: Yeah, no, those are great points. Thank you for sharing that. And, as you touched on earlier, it sounds like with the editing taking longer, but you're also allocating time where you're not filming, so that kind of keeps you from being burnt out, right? So before it was go, go, go, but now you're actually taking the time to relax. It's not as hectic as it was. Guest: Yeah, and I think being very selective about what we're filming. Like, a vlog is going to have, I don't know, three to five different segments of different locations and us maybe doing things, whereas we don't have to film the whole beginning to end of a hike anymore. So, you know, we're going on a hike tomorrow and we're just going to take a few B-roll clips, mention it in our next video, you know, show maybe talk about it for like 15, 20 seconds, and that's it. So, it does allow us to enjoy the locations more, because we know now that's not necessarily what people, at least for our audience, want to watch a whole video on. They would rather watch us do dishes. Do dishes and travel in the truck, get propane, and all that RV life real-life stuff. Host: Nice. And I would ask, how much you're making with YouTube, but instead, I will say, check the video out in the description, we'll link that video you posted on how much you're making so people can go check it out. If someone's listening to this podcast and they want to get started traveling but just aren't quite there yet, what is one thing they could start doing today to get them there? Guest: It sounds stupid, but planning, and specifically, if finances are a thing, if it's, you're going to retire and you're going to travel, then just start planning what type of RV and things like that you want to get. But otherwise, it's start making your financial plan for it. Is your financial plan YouTube? Well, if it's YouTube, then you need to build up savings so that you have a runway until YouTube starts earning you money, or you need to have a work camping job plan. And if that's the case, you need to find work camping jobs that leave you enough time to also create content. And so just start getting those things down on paper so that it's not just an idea of "Oh, I want to travel sometime," it becomes more concrete of "Okay, this is the plan that I'm going to tackle." Yeah, and I would say something that we had heard from other people that we actually followed was to not go super big. Like, when you're moving from a house into an RV, you think, "I've got to get like the 40-footer because I'm not going to have a lot of space," and we went with a 33-foot, and it felt... It's the perfect length for us. And I think that's another reason why we've stuck with the RV, the same RV for five years. See, it's not uncommon for someone to switch out an RV every couple of years, and they generally go smaller. They're getting a big fifth wheel, and then they're going to maybe a Class C, and then they're maybe doing a truck camper for weekend trips. So really trying to match your style of travel with an RV and making sure that you don't necessarily need all that space. Host: You mentioned a few channels that influenced you. What were those channels? Any other like books or other influences that helped you? Guest: Less Junk More Journey was the first one, and it was when I came to Joseph and I was like, "Hey, watch these people. They are a normal family like doing this." And we kept watching their videos, every single new episode that would come out, and it just kept inspiring us and convincing you to jump into full-time RV life. So we're really inspired when we see channels who are doing really creative things just to kind of see how that would inspire us in our own channel. So we really like Kara and Nate with their style that they do, and then also Flying The Nest. I think it's Flying The Nest. They are a family that travels the world, and their editing is really good. I was just going to say, to put a finger on what we mean by inspiring, we are ruined for YouTube now because when we watch YouTube, we're like, "Oh, that's how they're editing," or "Oh, that's how they're doing that." And Flying The Nest is one specifically that we were watching, and I looked at Kalyn and I'm like, "We're three minutes in, and they're on their like sixth background song. Like, they're not playing a background song for more than 30 seconds." And I said to her, "There's no way I'm doing that in our channel. That's just ridiculous." And we kept watching, and now we do that. But this wasn't before we were RV life, but I think Melissa Padet from Heath and Alyssa, she wrote a book. Now I can't remember the title of it, but working in all 50 states on, like, their journey through all 50 states, which was just so inspiring. And also with us work camping, kind of I don't know, felt like in a similar vein, like we're trying all these different jobs in different states. So I recommend them as well. Host: Nice, perfect. And we'll link all those resources below in the show notes. And one last question for part two, travel tips. You guys are coming back. Where are we talking about for that? Guest: We are going up to Northern Michigan and back in time to Mackinac Island. Awesome, everyone stay tuned. Joe and Kin, thanks again. Host: Thank you so much for having us.

20. Getting As Much Fulfillment Out of Life As They Can @HappilyEverHanks

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 1, 2024 45:23

www.atravelpath.com We were so glad to be able to chat with Kyle and Renee Hanks from Happily Ever Hanks! They shared their inspiring story of how they uprooted their lives to pursue full time travel in order to get the most fulfillment out of life. In this episode you'll learn all about: Getting Out Of Debt Kyle and Renee attribute much of their Freedom to the habits they developed to getting out of debt and not having to constantly pay large bills and debts every month. We learn some actionable steps they took to get themselves out of $230k in debt! How to Seek Fulfillment Tired of the mundane 9-5 work life with only two weeks off out of they year, they wanted to pursue something different. They discussed how the loneliness of the road can be nerve-wracking at times, but it's also proved to be a great source of fulfillment, knowing they are out on their own and getting through everything. They discuss chasing the addiction of finally getting one whole month off from work, and how they turned it into a game so that they could find ways to take even more time off. When Things Go Wrong Kyle and Renee shared a few things that cause them frustrations while they are on the road, and how they have learned to just laugh at times. They make a really good point about how when things go wrong, they have two choices: They can either get upset about it, or stay positive, share a laugh, and get through it. Learn all this and much, much more during this inspiration-filled chat with Happily Ever Hanks! Chapters · 00:00 Introduction · 04:30 What was some of the skepticism you faced when you started out in your RV? · 06:15 How did you balance work and travel when you were travel nursing? · 07:45 How long have you been out of travel nursing for? · 09:30 How were you able to get out of $230k of debt? · 11:45 When did travel become a priority for you? · 12:45 What are the biggest frustrations you face currently while traveling? · 15:45 Saying goodbye to family for the first time. · 16:45 Any mistakes or embarrassing stories you'd like to share? · 21:00 How do you handle it when things go wrong? · 21:30 What do you love most about your RV lifestyle? · 22:45 RV Techs · 23:30 Do you have any advice for someone looking to buy an RV for the first time? · 25:45 How do you get internet while traveling? · 29:15 What does your budget look like while traveling? · 32:30 What is it like traveling with a cat in your RV? · 34:00 What has been your coolest travel experience? · 36:15 What is one thing you need & don't need while traveling? · 38:30 What tools should every RVer have? · 41:00 Using the trucker lanes. · 43:00 Who influenced you to travel? Happily Ever Hanks on Social · Website: https://www.happilyeverhanks.com/ · YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappilyEverHanks · Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happilyeverhanks/ · Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happilyeverhanks · TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@happilyeverhanks Videos from Happily Ever Hanks · Financial Independence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlIOjC7eyl0&t=182s · Avoid These Mistakes When Buying an RV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VolVHbO1_L0 Past Episodes · Travel Nursing with Dakota and Courtney: https://atravelpath.com/travel-nursing/ · Part 1 with Laura and Jason: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-with-kids/ · Part 2 with Laura and Jason: https://atravelpath.com/florid-keys/ Resources · Dave Ramsey Books: https://store.ramseysolutions.com/books/all-books/ · RV Dealer Mentioned: https://www.tomschaeffers.com/ Camping · Bahia Honda Campground: https://www.floridastateparks.org/BahiaHonda Budgeting Tools · Tiller: https://www.tillerhq.com/ · Microsoft Excel/Google Sheets RV Tools · VIAIR Air Compressor: https://amzn.to/3TBoIrn · Pole Buddy: https://amzn.to/3xjiRQ4 · (Commissions may be earned from purchases made on this page) YouTube Channels Reference · Long Long Honeymoon: https://www.youtube.com/@LongLongHoneymoon · Keep Your Daydream: https://www.youtube.com/@KeepYourDaydream · Kara and Nate: https://www.youtube.com/@KaraandNate Most Popular Blogs: • Most Popular Travel Hacks: https://atravelpath.com/money-saving-travel-tips/ • Travel Gear: https://atravelpath.com/travel-gear/ • How to Budget For Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/how-to-budget-for-gas-for-a-road-trip/ • Our Favorite RV Upgrades: https://atravelpath.com/rv-upgrades/ • How Much We Made Renting Our RV: https://atravelpath.com/renting-camper-van/ • Never Run Out of Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-tip/ Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Transcript Host: Kyle and Renee, welcome to the Travel Path podcast. Guest: Thank you for having us. Host: So we know you on YouTube as Happily Ever Hanks. You built a very large community with your mission of both educating people in the RV life and inspiring your audience to break free from their comfort zone. Before we start, I do want to give a shout out to Laura, Jason, and Alexis. One episode of our podcast mentioned that they had watched so much of your content that their younger daughter, Alexis, has been inspired to become a travel nurse herself when she grows up. So here we are talking now full circle. But why don't we start by having you guys share a little about yourselves and then letting our audience know what your current travel lifestyle looks like? Guest: Sure. Well, first of all, that's really inspiring to hear. Yeah, that's really cool. That's neat that we're bringing up the younger generation and inspiring them. That's like kind of why we started all this. We first started as your nurses back in Pennsylvania in around 2015. We just got tired of the mundane lifestyle and wanted to explore life on the road a little bit. So we started looking at travel nursing and in 2016, we started applying for our licenses. Actually, in late 2016, we started applying for a California license for our nursing. And from there, we just kind of hit the road. And then we had no really idea where we were going. We went to San Francisco for our first travel assignment and then thereafter is kind of up in the air. But basically, over the time being, I'm sure we'll get more into this later on in the podcast, but around 2019, something there, you'd say we were kind of hit a hiccup with nursing itself and we laid off for a little bit. And then that's what inspired us to start documenting our adventures and the RV lifestyle, sharing all the things. When we worked in the ER, man, how many times we were asked by our coworkers and other patients, they were so fascinated with us living in an RV or like, how does that work? It doesn't make sense. You're not living in a house. You're living in an RV. And yeah, we were just educating. We had people gathered around and we were talking about how they can get into like RVing with travel nursing. Host: So I feel like that's probably maybe we've got the ball rolling for you guys starting your YouTube. Was it everyone asking you questions in your career as travel nurses that kind of got your head scratching? Well, maybe there's a void here we can make start a channel and actually inform a larger audience. Guest: Yeah, pretty much. We just we learned that there's people who are RV and there's travel nursing. And, you know, when you think of an RV or you tend to focus more on people who are retired, so to have these travel nurses who were younger, just so interested, they're like, I've never even heard of this. I never even thought to get an RV. It's just it's like we were teaching others. But, you know, we didn't know it was a thing either until we found it on the Internet. We were just going to do housing, like apartment housing that the travel nurse company gives you until we stumbled upon some article that talked about, hey, you can live in an RV and do this. And we were like, no. And then here we are. Host: Now, the purpose of the podcast is to help people, you know, get started traveling and ultimately reach their travel goals. So I do want to dial it back a little bit on your website. You had mentioned that when you made this transition, you fought some skepticism and then also you were, quote unquote, bucking the trend when you sold your house and went to travel full time. What was some of that skepticism and how are you able to overcome that? Guest: Well, I guess the skepticism was jumping into a different way of life. See, when we were working as nurses back in Pennsylvania before we even started living in an RV, we were kind of just doing the mundane nine to five. And it just like one week flowed into another. And we were having to wait for those two week vacations. You know, you work all year to get those two weeks off. And it's like once you get those two weeks, it's just like, where do we go? What do we do? It seems so condensed into one time frame where we just didn't know we were kind of fumbling around. We're like, why don't we just kind of make a lifestyle out of this? And then through working in the ER, you know, we met a lot of other travelers there and it just blew my mind immediately that nurses could bounce around the country and live this different lifestyle filling in the gaps within schedules across the country, you know, other hospitals. So, you know, I think that's a really good question. So that's kind of like what inspired us, you know, to kind of get there. Is there anything I'm missing? Guest: No, I pretty much we just also the trend of like you buy a house, you get married, you have kids, it's like life teaches you to follow these certain rules. We were like, what if we sell the house now and just kind of do whatever, travel around the country. So yeah, yeah, get out of debt, lose the mortgage and travel the country. Host: You mentioned that mundane, like the two week vacation, right? That's kind of the ritual, the path that most people follow. And on our last episode with Wanda with Katie, she had mentioned that she had many nurses or many friends in the travel nurse field where what they kind of do is they'll get to a destination, an assignment. They'll be working like crazy hours for however many weeks. And then they'll take like an extended break, whether it's a couple of weeks or a month in that destination where they are and just explore it. Is that how you pretty much lived it when you were travel nursing? Guest: That's exactly how we lived it. Yes. So we got a little taste of that. A typical travel nurse contract lasts about 13 weeks. And from that point, when you complete it, you can either ask to resign at the hospital if they still need you or you can move along to a different state, different hospital. It's also flexible. So we got a little taste of that when we finished our contract. We're like, well, now what? We have this money. We saved up a little money on the side and, you know, we could go work another job immediately and start making more money. Take a little time off, go explore some surrounding areas. And that's kind of what led us into becoming debt free. But yeah, just so much like just work your boat off for 13 weeks and then take like a month or two off and actually travel. Guest: It was such a liberating feeling to be debt-free and have the flexibility to choose how we wanted to spend our time and money. Host: Do you find it easier or harder, the fact that both of you are travel nurses? Guest: Oh, easier, much easier. Yeah. Yeah. When we went to San Francisco, oh, my goodness. We were just... I'm not a city person. So I was kind of thrown in the middle of everything. It was very busy, very hectic, and just fast-paced. So having each other to rely on in the new location was kind of nice to kind of get through some of those hiccups. Host: How long have you been out of the travel nurse space for? Guest: Oh, man, it's... we took an assignment in 2019, and then that's when they were saying they couldn't resign us. So it's been... it's been a minute for sure. And then, you know, when we got laid off, you know, at that temporary time, we had tried to resign with the hospital, like, you know, we can't afford to rehire you guys. This is right during all the pandemic just to be completely transparent. You know, the hospital took such a hit with the money, you know, depleted and they kind of afford travel nurses. So they really had to hunker down with the budgeting and everything. So luckily we had set up enough of a almost like a safety net for ourselves to take some time off. And, you know, we were always wondering, well, this may be the opportunity to share and document all of our experiences with others. Yeah. And we didn't expect that it was going to replace travel nursing. Host: I'm sure the travel nurse space has changed a little bit since you guys exited that area. And I'm just realizing now this is like the purpose. This is like a perfect follow up from our previous episode with Courtney and Dakota, who are actually just getting into the travel nurse space. So the episode that came out actually hasn't been released yet, but it's going to get released before this one. So if you listen to this now and you're looking to get into it, they provide details on actually like modern-day, currently what it's like transitioning into that. So that's perfect. Transitioning a little bit, I want to talk a little bit about how you went out of debt, because that's a... I forget the statistic I read, but I know there's a lot of consumer debt in this country. And you had a video a while back on how you went from two hundred and thirty thousand dollars in debt to financial independence. I want to know what your definition of F.I. is because I know that's been thrown around a lot with financial freedom. But how are you able to get or to get out of debt, essentially? Guest: Well, getting out of debt was just mostly, I would say... I don't know what would what would the term be that I'm looking for? It's kind of just mostly discipline and just having a goal and following through with it. So we broke it down in as simple pieces as we could. We usually referred to Dave Ramsey at the time. We had utilized a lot of his teachings. I don't know how familiar most people are with Dave Ramsey out there. But it's a really simple way of just setting aside like baby steps of like setting some money over here for an emergency fund and then tackling all your lowest debt and then going forward from there to your bigger, bigger debts. So financial independence was a huge thing because, as I said before, once we got that taste of finishing a contract and then having that time off, well, we kind of became addicted to having more of that time off. Freedom. That freedom was like, oh, my gosh, I want more of that. A month was like only a month now that we get to travel. We want two months, three months. And so it became a game to us, to be honest. It turned into a game. We just went all in over time. All of our pennies and dollars went to paying off every single piece of debt that we had. So that to actually qualify, what would the financial independence? It was like the freedom side of it. That's what it meant to us is like not being tied to a loan or like having to work because you have to pay all these bills. It was like, what if we didn't have to pay all these bills and we can kind of just... you can live frugally if you want to not have to work as much or you can work your butt off and save. It's just like you had freedom to do whatever you want with your money. Host: Yes, it's like once you learn it's that delayed gratification. Yeah, it's a sacrifice. You're giving up certain things now. But once you realize what you're able to do with that extra money and that extra time in the future, that's when it becomes, like you said, like a game and it gets addicting. And then you just try and find every nook and cranny you can start saving and and growing from there. Guest: Absolutely. Yeah. Host: Twenty seventeen is when we started travel nursing, right? And twenty nineteen is when we decided to start going full time. At what point did travel become the driving factor in that? Guest: So, not the answer for Renee, but for most of my growing up, we traveled around as a family, maybe a couple of hours away here and there. We had done some flights across the country to go see some places, but nothing crazy. So jumping into the lifestyle was very new for us because we knew we would have to drive all the way from Pennsylvania to California for our first travel nursing assignment. And there is a lot of land in between to sightsee and just explore and take it all in. So as we proceeded from there, I think it just became a little bit of an addiction over time of like, wow, you know, we only do have one life to live. We live it responsibly. You know, we're not out here discriminating YOLO and blowing money like crazy and doing whatever. We're actually trying to be really responsible people, but get the most fulfillment out of this life as we can. So to kind of answer your question, I just say it gradually increased over time to where we are now of, you know, eventually one day, hopefully we can do some international travel. Yeah, it's a lot to see out there. Lots to see. Host: Fast forward to where you are on the road now currently. What are some of the biggest frustrations you currently face traveling? Guest: Probably the lack of consistency. You know, you might be in one area and the cell service is great and the resources are close by. But the campground is iffy or I don't know the weather is not good. So it's like and then you go to another place and the Internet's bad and then you go to this place. And the grocery store is like 20 miles away. So it's like you can never have consistency, but that's OK, because the best part is that you could just pick up and move and go somewhere new all the time. Guest: Yeah, and it may seem just to piggyback on that, it may sound kind of like... I don't know where we're coming from. You know, if you're living at home, you're like, that doesn't really make sense. But try to uproot your life and all the routines that you have, the typical grocery store, you know, where everything's laid out all the time. You know, your favorite gas station that has all the best prices, friends, your family, everything you can rely on for. You know, you're kind of out here by yourself and it's a little nerve-racking. But in that, you kind of find some fulfillment within your life that you're pushing yourself, you're exploring new places, and it's just fun to be immersed in that kind of lifestyle. Guest: Going to a grocery store and everything's backwards. Yeah. Walmart. Hey, got to learn it. We'll tackle it together. It's like every time stop and shop, they rearrange everything, except for you guys. It's every time you go to a grocery store. Yeah, it's like there's no learning the grocery store. Like you're just you're always walking around like you're clueless everywhere you go. And that's just the way it is. Roll with it. Host: Do you guys ask for help in the grocery store? It's the first thing I do. Hope will never. Guest: Yeah, I don't know. I thought she would be more, but I'm just like you, Tyler. I ask for a couple of times. She's like, where is this? And I immediately just find somebody. I'm like, listen, we don't want to. What's... I don't want to be defeated. It's like if I can't find the eggs, like what she likes, you know, can I even get by in life? It's like a personal scavenger hunt every time. Host: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I wonder if that's like a man and a woman like personality thing, because it's the first thing I do when I go to a store, even if I know where it is, I'm still asking. But I know with you, like I just ask somebody, no. OK, fine. OK. Guest: That's because we want to still look at everything. We want to meander around the store. We don't just want to get that one item. I do want to say that the thing I always forget about. I don't want to knock our friends and family like that. That's a big part of travel. That's hard is, you know, he has family in California. I have family in Pennsylvania. So they're spread out and they're all up north. So it doesn't make it like a snowbird situation where we could be in the south and visiting one of them. So that's another inconsistency or an issue with traveling that we don't like. Yeah. Yeah. Host: So yeah, family. So that's one thing you probably expected, right? Obviously, if you're traveling full time, you're going to be saying goodbye to your family. Was that harder or easier than you expected it to be? Guest: The first time, the very first time we said bye. Guest: Yeah. Yeah. That was hard. That was hard. It was difficult. I mean, like Renee said, you know, with us having family on the other side of the country, it was like saying bye to them and then being like, oh, I'm excited to see the other side of the family. But it's still kind of it hurts like that, that first time, because it's like, you know, your your mind is telling you, oh, my gosh, this is forever. But in reality, it's it's not it's just it's just a new step in life. That's what it is. Still hurts because we'll go back and visit for a month or two and then you say goodbye again. So it's like you're constantly reliving the like, well, you know, I'll see you next time. And it's always you're always trying to delay it because you don't want to say goodbye. But you think we'll be back. Host: Like I said, you're mobile, so you can always pick up and go whenever you want to. Do you have any — and I know you guys do because I've watched your videos — but do you have any embarrassing stories or mistakes you want to share that could potentially save a future listener some trouble? Guest: To keep it as short as possible, we were in Mississippi driving and we need to pull over for some fuel at a Flying J at the time. Now, Flying J is a truck stop out on the road that we had used quite frequently. And why we liked it so much is they also had these RV fuel lanes there. So if you can imagine where normal cars would fuel up, then there's RV fuel lanes. And then on top of that, they have the other section for all the truck drivers and 18-wheelers, so we pulled into the RV fuel lane. But we have been so used to filling up in the trucker lanes where everything was diesel over there. If you don't know where I'm going with this, eventually I got out of the truck, started pumping fuel, but quickly realized I pumped about a gallon, maybe two, two gallons of diesel and two or, excuse me, of gas into my diesel truck. So I stopped, panicked, received his panic. We likely didn't do anything. Didn't start the truck, but I I had no idea what to do. I didn't know what happened if I would fill it up with diesel and start running it. I just said, let's not do anything. We'll call for a tow truck and see what happens. So we end up calling for a tow truck, having to get the truck towed all the way to like a body shop or somewhere that can deal with dropping the tank, cleaning out the fuel injectors, everything. Meanwhile, our RV, our travel trailer sat there blocking the entire fuel lanes for three hours straight. Guest: Yeah, I think Flying J didn't care. Yeah, they're like, I just let it sit there. Guest: So we forgot we lock it up or anything. Guest: I forgot. Guest: So at the time we traveled with two vehicles. Guest: Yeah. So I stayed back and just parked the car. Guest: Oh, that's right. In front of it and just blocked it. Guest: We need to see the trailer. Host: Yeah, on guard. Guest: So just be careful. The reason, just one last thing I want to add to that story, the black handles is what got me. So when you're over on the 18-wheeler side, it could be green handles for diesel or it could be black handles for diesel. But unfortunately, in the RV fuel lanes, it was only green for diesel. And I had picked up a black handle. Host: Well, fortunately, you caught it and then you didn't end up starting it. Do you know what would have happened if I know it's only a gallon or so you said, but I can't imagine that being good. Guest: My buddy said something with the combustion of like gasoline. They are nerding out on this stuff, but they said somehow the combustion rate of gasoline basically could really like do some internal damage on a diesel truck engine so that he made the best. A lot of people out there had commented on the video to like, hey, I've done that before, filled it up the rest of the way with diesel. I was fine, but I like to look at it with it being a truck that was at the time paid off. It was under warranty. I'm not sure. We just didn't want a chance that, you know, no dad. I called dad. I called my buddy. They're like, I'm not sure what what to do. So we just called again. Host: Yeah, when in doubt, you're better off just calling someone. At least you're you're safe that way. Plus, when you're on the road, I mean, you couldn't go on to you. There's a good chance you're going to be in the middle of nowhere at some point. You know, that thing breaking down. There's no service. There's no one, nobody to help you. Guest: Yeah, yeah. On that same trip, we did almost break down a mile in nowhere, Texas, with my car. Then it needed a new alternator. I don't know where. So we were just like, OK, this lifestyle is great. Yeah, you know, everything's breaking. Host: You mentioned your previous video every time like you guys just you laugh when there's problems, you said something about that. We just can't get any worse. And is that is that a coping mechanism? Guest: I think so by now. I got to laugh or cry. So we just figured, let's just laugh about it. We make it a duty to like pick up the camera to show it. So the camera is in your face. You know, you kind of pep up a little bit. You're not. Yeah. There are so many kinds of words around. So yeah, like when things go wrong at first, it's like you used to get so angry. Like, why me? You know, why is this happening to me? Everyone's out at home and joined in or we're all stuck on the side of the road dealing with this, but we quickly realize that's just the way life goes. You know, either live at home. You deal with life or you live in an RV and you deal with life still. So yeah, you can laugh or you cry, but you can't change it. Host: Yeah, exactly. You got to get it done. On a more positive note, what's the thing you love most about this lifestyle? Guest: Probably just being able to go somewhere new all the time. You know, we'll be we'll be in one area and we'll love that area. But after a month, we're like, all right, it's time to go see something new. So the flexibility, you just go anywhere. You know, if you want to spend a summer up north, sure. Or if you want to be in the south, we're chasing all the warm weather. It's like, yeah, we're meeting some new people. Yeah, like our faith in humanity was restored. You know, once again, it was like turn off the TV and just get out there and have some conversations with people. And you'll realize that like people are awesome out there. There's a lot of great people to meet. We've met some amazing, amazing people during our travels. And still to this day. Host: No, that's 100 percent sure. I do want to comment to you on your latest video when you had your leaf spring repaired, you talked about how you had called the RV techs and you weren't sure how they were going to be. But in our experience and at the end of your video, too, you mentioned it. They've been phenomenal. I have not met. We've worked with plenty of them so far. We've only been, you know, about four months. But everyone we've worked with has been great. And we've only heard good things like secondhand about them. I don't know what it is about our RV techs, but they're important to be aware of. Guest: Absolutely. Yeah, we kind of agree more with that because a lot of people are sitting out there looking on the dealers to fix their problems and they're just not getting any answers. They're waiting. They're saying, hey, you got to wait six months before we can squeeze you into the schedule. And, you know, the RV technicians have been come such a great intermediate between the dealership and the consumer who had bought the RV and is looking for some help. So they're kind of just like that guiding light that could get some of those quick fixes done. Some of them are just beyond what we could ever ask for and repairs and done so much. It'll be to not have to pack up your whole home to take it to a dealership and sit and wait. It's just like they'll come to you and you just hang out. It's so it's so nice. Very convenient. Host: Yeah. Do you have any advice for someone looking to buy an RV for the first time? Guest: Oh, we did a video on this recently. Kind of where we talked about making sure you're doing your price checking and comparing. And I would say in today's world, like have an RV inspection, have like a certified RV tech that can do inspections. Come and look at your RV, whether it's used or buying it new off the lot. And if the salespeople or the dealership won't allow external inspectors to come in like a third-party inspector, I would probably not. I would. That's a big red flag. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's not going to be well received, but you always got to be your own advocate with these things and have as many, I don't know, people on your side looking out for your best interests because the dealership certainly isn't going to be that person for you. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah, we, the reason we bought at the dealer and the reason we bought new is because it was our first time ever buying an RV and we had no clue what to look for. And I didn't want to buy something new or something from a private person or a private dealer just because I had no idea what to look for. Yeah. Had I known I could have had the RV tech inspector available, I think we would have jumped on that and done that instead of buying new and going through all the loops and hurdles and the pain points of going through a dealer and warranties that aren't really warranties and all that fun stuff. For sure. For sure. We were through that too when we bought our first one. We didn't even know anything about tow ratings. I mean, we just showed up with our half-ton truck. And luckily, they were really good about not looking at any RVs. He said, well, before we look at any RVs, I need to know what your truck can tow. We were like, what do you mean? Like, so, yeah, we rolled the dice on a good one. Yeah. A lot of people out there said, well, we never got that. They just, they'll show us that, you know, yeah. I'll show you the rakes and that's that. So that was good. Host: So there are good ones out there, but just are good. Guest: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Tom Shafers in Pennsylvania. That's where that was. Yeah. So, OK, we'll link down the show notes. Host: Obviously, you guys need Internet when you're traveling, you're full-time content creators. How are you getting Internet? Guest: Our main form of Internet is Starlink right now. Yeah. Do you guys have Starlink at all? Host: We're getting it. Host: Yeah, we've asked this question almost every episode. And so far, the consensus has been T-Mobile, the T-Mobile home Internet plan with this. So the Starlink has been the most popular, but more often than not. What they're saying is they're using it as backup. And then they're using T-Mobile for the most part for their Internet. And then if they're in an area where there's no service there, it's Starlink. That's really nice. Starlink, that's your go-to. Guest: That's our go-to. Yeah, we always have that up and running. And it's been working out good. You know, it was a little touch and go when we first purchased it. It was very somewhat newish and not as many satellites up in the sky. But yeah, well, we are also in the eastern US. So like so much more heavily populated, more like we were in Florida during snowboard season, so everyone had Starlink. We were all fighting for the satellites. But last year, it is perfect. I mean, it's beautiful. And then when we go east, we're going to be complaining about it. But it's good to hear about the T-Mobile because we do have we have a basic cell phone plan with AT&T and we use the hotspot if we need Internet, if the Starlink is not doing well. So it's good to know about that T-Mobile because we'll have to look into this if we need to. Absolutely. Yes, Ben. So far, so good. Host: And we have our phone plans with T-Mobile and then we have like a third when we transfer over, we got a third like bonus phone. So we have 150 gigs of hotspot before we ever have to do anything. And then we're using the T-Mobile for Internet. So we're kind of rolling the dice with T-Mobile, kind of putting all of our eggs in one basket. But we'll get Starlink too just to have that as a backup. Is that set up process? The reason people have mentioned they don't use it primarily is because of the set-up process. How long does it take to set that up? Guest: We're less than five minutes. Yeah. Guest: Less than. Yeah. It's just we've integrated it with our typical setting up routine. It's mostly just sneaking a wire through the side, through one of the slide-outs, and then connecting it to the modem, and then getting the actual Starlink mounted onto a pole. Guest: A pole. We call it a pole, buddy. You can buy it off Amazon and it just gets it up above your roof of your RV to have better signal, better access to the sky. Host: Does the boot-up time take a long time? Is that what it is or? Guest: That is probably what it is, that they're mostly, you know, it's not as soon as you plug it in, it's up and going. It does take about three to five minutes, I would say. Yeah. But like you could like get that set up. And then while you're doing the outside, I'll plug in the router and then just finish setting up the inside. And by the time I even have a second to like go on the internet it's already running. Guest: So yeah, I guess if you need it in a quick pinch, if you pull over on the side of the road, take a break, it probably would be a little inconvenient because you'd have to set it up and wait a few minutes. So something like that. Guest: But I will say, like, I think boondocking is becoming a lot more popular because of Starlink. Before, when you were off-grid, you were truly off-grid. There was like no cell service in a lot of these cool places you see on Instagram, you know, like Utah, Arizona boondocking. Yeah. Now, everyone's out there streaming and gaming. It's like a whole new, no longer off-grid. So it's really nice to have that. Host: So you guys have been traveling for part-time, full-time. And I know you're pretty tight with your budget. You post videos on your YouTube channel. Have you ever been able to break down what a monthly or weekly budget looks like? I know it probably fluctuates quite a bit. Guest: It varies. It just depends. Like we just had a very expensive month in San Diego, and our budget looked way different when we were trying to get out of debt. We still budget and track every penny, but we're a little bit more lenient. And then Alaska was kind of like a moment where we were strict. Yeah, I guess the best way to think about it was when we were getting out of debt. What was our budget? Did we go out to eat at all? Like, do you remember? Did we go out to restaurants and treat ourselves to something? Guest: Yeah, we would give ourselves like two hundred dollars a month. Wasn't it like to go out to try new restaurants or go out to eat? And that included if you wanted to get drinks somewhere. So that ended up really quickly. So that wasn't even nowadays, like nowadays, I would get you a couple of drinks, two hundred bucks. Yeah, like a drink. Here's a cup of water. Yeah, like, wow, great. Yeah. And then groceries were kind of like, I mean, that's hard to control. Groceries are our biggest downfall just as a married couple. I don't know. You know, you get old, you get happy and you just like, oh, let's, you know, have some good dinner tonight and have some snacks. So that's one we got to like always keep coming back to. Yeah. The grocery bill. But to give you the other numbers, I can't really remember what it's been strict in the past. When we were really strict with our budget, we would just look at what we were already spending and then we would just try to cut that like a quarter of that and just try to chop that out and be better about spending. Host: Do you have any budget apps or tools that make keeping track of that easier? Gues: Now we use a program called Tiller, but we used to just do pen and paper and Microsoft Excel. And that was to kind of keep track of everything. Watch a quick YouTube video on how to line up with your expenses, highlight it all, and make a running total. And then it was really cool because as you paid off your credit cards or whatever debt you had, you subtracted that and then it would take away from the bottom big number. That was nice to see that. It's kind of like a little encouragement to keep going. So that was fun. Yeah. Host: The visual is important. I'm glad you mentioned you had that starting out small, but bucks a month. You have to celebrate the small victories. Otherwise, you're going to burnt out. So being able to set money aside to celebrate, you pay something off. You're paying things down slowly. You know, those mini victories. Guest: No, no. Yeah, it's crazy how when you don't track how much it slips away, because when we first started travel nursing, we weren't budgeting and we weren't being strict about our budget. It wasn't until we decided to see what our three to six months of expenses were. So we kind of got into it by accident because I was like, well, let's see what we are currently spending on every month. And then I saw how much we spent in restaurants because we were travel nursing. We wanted to go eat all the good food. We want to enjoy ourselves. And there was one month that it was close to a thousand dollars and just going out to eat. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like there's that there's a problem. I never guessed. So we saw that and we were like, OK, no more. And that's how like the whole budgeting happens. Host: You guys are traveling with your cat, Dexter. And I don't believe we've had a guest who's traveled with a cat so far on the show. I would assume most people would assume that there's not much involved in taking care of a cat. But anyone to add to that? Guest: Oh, yeah. There's, I say, oh, go ahead. I was just going to say that he we had no idea when we got in this lifestyle if he would take well to actually living in an RV. That was kind of what pushes into RV life, to be honest, is having a consistent home for him. So we always joke that we buy these RVs for him, you know. And because the other option was when we were travel nursing is to bounce between apartments and, you know, there's all sorts of smells and you don't know what the rules are with pets and especially cats. So I don't like not having a consistent home. Yeah. So we did it. Exactly. So, you know, I would just say if you do own a cat and you're a little nervous about taking him or her out on the road, you know, just take some car rides, maybe just put them in a kennel and start off small. There's no need to bite off a huge chunk and travel across, you know, halfway across the United States to get an idea of how will they travel? Yeah. He did pretty well right away. We knew he didn't get nauseated or have anxiety or anything like that. He mostly just slept. So it was a good fit for him. I mean, if it's getting close to his dinner time, he'll speak up and he will not be quiet. So like it's yeah, he knows to tell us like, OK, I've been good this whole time, but it's time to pull over. Host: Don't we all? Guest: Yeah, don't we? Exactly. Well said. Host: All right, guys, what has been the coolest experience you've had while traveling? Guest: Oh, yeah. This question is great because there's, there's just been so many. Like sometimes we would be like, remember that time we just got first, the first time we ran the AC in Iowa, but we were so happy that the thing worked. Yeah, small things. I think there was one of our coolest times was when we were in the Florida Keys, we were at a state park Bahia Honda, and we managed to get a site that was right on the water. So we could literally snorkel like right off where our view was part every day. And that was just like such a cool thing to do. That was nice. Host: Yeah, we have not been there, but we've seen videos and pictures of actually Alexis and Lauren Jason, the podcast I mentioned you guys, their part to travel tips was all about the Florida Keys, so very detailed on that. And they were sending us pictures. And yeah, that campsite, no joke, it's right on the water. Guest: And you can snorkel, sit and pull up a long chair. And yeah, so cool. It's like being in the Caribbean, but you're in the States. So that's like what's so cool about it. Host: And same thing for you, Kyle, Bahia Honda?. Guest: Yeah, I really enjoyed that. And I guess this to kind of cover your story that you brought up at the AC. It was funny when I said we hit the road at the first time when we left for travel nursing, we left at two o'clock in the morning, left her parents' house, and just drove to WalMart, stayed the night in a random WalMart. And then we kept driving and it was about to where did you say it was Iowa? I remember we made it to Iowa. We made it to Iowa. It was just it was so hot and humid for whatever reason. It was right around four o'clock. We finally pulled in an RV park. But then we turn on the AC for the first time in the RV. I know crazy, right? We tried this out when we got the dealership before we drove off. Now we waited till we got to Iowa before we ran the AC. But I kid you not, it was just like when that cold air was blowing on you and then you could turn around and look out and it's just something completely new. It is just like, wow, we are doing it and we're actually we're going to live like this. And yeah, that was really cool. That was a neat moment. Host: After spending just about seven years traveling now, has there been anything you've learned that you cannot live without outside of the internet? Guest: I would have to say, I mean, this is going to sound like something a young person would say, but my smartphone. Think about when you're out to get anything or figure out anything directions. Where's the nearest grocery store? Like, what's the Google reviews on this restaurant? It's like you gotta have your cell phone, like that little mini computer, to tell you so much. Host: On the contrary, has there been anything that you've learned that you don't need while traveling? Guest: Yeah, I think living in the RV when we started watching YouTube videos way back when we were first getting into it, there was a lot of unrealistic expectations of like, do I need all that before I hit the road and, you know, something like a ten thousand dollar solar set up or the same thing like crazy like that. You don't really need it to get it out, include knocking and blowing time off grid. You know, you can survive a night or two. Yeah, kind of what what what comes with your RV, just a battery, a water tank, water heater, you have everything you need. So I guess I just would say don't keep up with the Joneses all that much. You know, try to keep it realistic for the lifestyle you're looking for. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure online, social media with all these products. You gotta have this before you own this. And it's like just take your RV. Like, don't buy anything and just go like buy your basic stuff, your hoses and all the stuff to get by. But you don't need all the fancy digits and gadgets. Like, we still don't have a backup camera. And that was on our list when we first hit the road. We were like, look at one eventually. And now it's seven years and we're like, we don't really need it. You don't have to have it like you'll get by. Host: If you wait and wait and wait until you have everything you need, you'll never hit the road. Exactly. A good point is kind of air on the side, especially with those expensive things. Air on the side of don't buy it. And then once you hit the road and you're traveling, you'll either learn that you need it and then you can buy it then or you're going to learn you don't need it and save ten thousand bucks on a solar panel set. Guest: Well said. Well said. Guest: Yeah, that's exactly how we feel, too. You can always get one battery and then add batteries from there. Any tools that RVers should have on them? Why don't you tell them about your favorite one? Guest: Oh, yeah. We have a thing called a VIAIR and we just love it. It's amazing. Basically, it's an on demand air compressor that you can hook up to your truck battery and then it just creates on demand compressed air. They can fill up your tires if they're running a little bit low. Man, that was a huge concern for us because we were thinking when we get out there, how are we going to be able to fit into gas stations to fill up the tires if they're running low? This just eliminates all those stressors and you just have that whenever you need it most. And we had this huge normal air compressor like I think it's still in a storage unit. Guest: Oh, yeah, that thing is huge. Really? Do we bring that? How do we fill up our tires? But I think we use that almost every time. This thing is lightweight. It's small. It doesn't take up a lot of space and it can pump up tires to like 120 PSI. So our trailer tires are 100 PSI maximum at cold pressures. So it does more than enough to handle those loads. So if you're thinking, oh, I drive a big class, say that's not going to help me. Actually, probably will. Yeah. And we just told people you don't need to buy stuff, but you do need to buy that. Host: That's a good point. That's actually something we have not heard in the podcast yet. That's not one of those. I know you said it's smaller, but it's not one of those 20 volt compress bigger than that for your rig, right? Or is that something you can actually use? I guess you can charge it. I guess. Guest: Well, I'm thinking of one. I've seen like people have like handheld ones. I don't know if those that's what you're thinking of. But this one is probably. Yeah, it's all it runs off the volt battery. So, you know, and you don't really charge it. It just literally plugs into the positive and negative terminal on a truck battery. Host: And I think it's something else. And because it's the point I want to make was you really can't rely on gas stations. Like you said, you can't you might not be able to fit your RV, but also the air doesn't always work. We've had tire issues where we've pulled in. I've gone back and forth. I went to one gas station. The air didn't work. The next gas station. The air worked, but it didn't have the pressure gauge. So I go back to the first one and it was just the crapshoot going back and forth. But yeah, one person in the gas station had one of those. I think it was VIAIR, but it was smaller. It was like a DeWalt size volt compressor. And we just pumped it up right there. So, yeah, that's a good thing to have for sure. Guest: Absolutely. Host: If you could listen to this podcast when you were first starting out, is there a question I did not ask tonight that you wished I would have? And how would you answer that now? Guest: Oh, you know what? There's, going back to the trucker lanes. I remember when we first hit the road, we had the diesel truck, but we were towing a smaller RV, and we kept squeezing into small, normal-sized gas stations because we didn't know that we could use the trucker lanes. We were like, "We're not allowed in there for the truckers." But if you're starting out, and I mean, basically, you're allowed to use the truck lanes. You're allowed to park in rest areas where trucks park. Like, basically, there were a lot of moments where we felt very timid. And then, just as you go along, you start to be more like, "Yeah, we own this road," you know? Like, you start to be a little bit more like, "Come on in and move over." So, and the reason we say that is because, you know, these RVs, especially the one we're living in, it's the same kind of tractor-trailer. So we measure 13 foot six inches at our first AC over our bedroom. So you've got to be really considerate of where is able to accommodate you. You can't just pull into any random gas station because you can get into a pickle pretty quickly. So, after some time of traveling and sweating it out, those trucker lanes look real nice at the end of the day. And you're like, "No, partaking that. Yeah, go in there, stretch out." Host: That's a good point. I could definitely see myself being more hesitant like you guys. And once you start seeing, "Oh, there's an RV over there. Okay, we can go over there." And then once you start seeing that, "Okay, we can do that too." But I would be a little more reluctant to get over there. Guest: Exactly, yeah. Host: I know, you guys. It seems like you were kind of trailblazers in the digital creation space with travel nursing and traveling full time. But were there other influences or YouTube channels that influenced you or books maybe to do this travel full-time life? Guest: What got us into travel nursing was just meeting other travel nurses at work. You met actually a couple that would travel together. That's how you found out they do it together. Yeah. But then when we started looking into RV travel, you know, we got on YouTube like a lot of people do. And I remember watching a lot of Long Long Honeymoon and Keep Your Daydream as a lot of them just to help get us, you know, give you, like, not you're not just learning, but you're gaining that confidence to, like, travel on the road. Yeah. And Kara and Nate is another one that's really fun. If people like fast-paced adventures that are like across the world, they're some of our favorite, or my favorites. Yeah, because they do. Yeah, they're really good with their storytelling, things like that. And so they inspire us to be better storytellers too. Host: Yeah, I feel like if we were starting out, we didn't discover your channel. We were starting out because we were in the van life space. We were watching a lot of Adventures of A and K and Kara and Nate. But if we were looking for fifth wheels or camp trailers, we would have been all over your channel. I feel like we were like relate a lot to you guys and you're very entertaining. But also you provide a lot of useful information. So, yeah, I'll link your channel as well as the other channels you mentioned in the show notes. One last question for audiences in a ton of suspense before the next episode. Where are we talking about for travel tips? Guest: So our destination we want to talk about is San Diego. San Diego. Yeah, we got a lot to say about that. Host: All right. San Diego. Tune in in two days, everybody. Kyle and Renee, thanks again. Guest: Thank you so much.

Juniper Springs, Florida: Camping & Nearby Activities @kodaandcourt

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 27, 2024 19:16

https://atravelpath.com/ Hey Pathfinders, join us as we welcome back Dakota and Courtney to the show. After hearing about their inspirational story of travel nursing and doing two van conversions, they sat down with us to share on of their favorite destinations. We chatted about Juniper Springs Campground in Florida and some of the nearby attractions. Learn all about: · What makes Juniper Springs such a great destination · Paddleboarding and kayaking in the area · Nearby airports and transportation · Destinations within an hour including Kings Landing, Devils Den, and Daytona · Swimming with manatees And more! Chapters · 00:00 Introduction · 01:15 What makes Juniper Springs such a great destination? · 04:00 How far away are nearby attractions? · 04:45 How long should someone stay there for? · 06:30 How was it bringing your dog? · 08:30 Juniper Springs campground amenities? · 09:45 Nighttime activities? · 11:45 How was the overall cost in Juniper Springs? · 12:30 How was the food scene? · 14:00 What are three things you need to pack when visiting Juniper Springs? · 15:30 What are two complaints someone might have about Juniper Springs? · 17:00 What is one thing you can't leave Juniper Springs without doing? Links · Ocala National Forest: https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/florida/recarea/?recid=83528 · Juniper Springs Recreation Area: https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/florida/recarea/?recid=83676 · Ian and Ana's video (featuring Devils Den, 3 Sisters Springs, and Kings Landing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L2ZK09Jd5g&t=1057s · Lectric eBikes: https://lectricebikes.com/ · iOverlander: https://www.ioverlander.com/ Nearby Attractions · Kings Landing (1 Hour): https://www.kingslandingfl.com/ · 3 Sisters Springs (1.5 Hours): https://www.threesistersspringsvisitor.org/sisters · Devil's Den (1.5 Hours) https://www.facebook.com/DevilsDenSpring/ · Daytona (1 Hour: https://www.daytonabeach.com/ · Disney World (1.5 Hours): https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/ Podcasts Mentioned · Disney World: https://atravelpath.com/disney-world/ · Florida Keys: https://atravelpath.com/florid-keys/ Nearby Airports · Orlando International Airport (about 1.5 hours): https://orlandoairports.net/ · Gainesville Regional Airport (about 1.5 hours): https://www.flygainesville.com/ *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Transcript Host: Hi Guest and Guest, welcome back to the travel tips segment of the Travel Path Podcast. So for those of you who missed part one, Guest and Guest came on. They're on Instagram as Kota and Court. They've done two van conversions now. Um, Guest works as a travel nurse. We got into very specific details about getting into travel nursing and also their van build. Um, so if you haven't listened to that one, definitely check it out. But for part two, travel tips, where are we talking about today? Guest: We're talking about Florida, specifically Juniper Springs area in the Ocala National Forest, and um, some of the stuff is kind of a broad range of surrounding areas, yes. So surrounding areas, there's a lot to do in Florida, there's a lot to do in that area. Host: Awesome. Now, what made you guys want to share about Florida and the Juniper Springs area today? Guest: So, we watched it. It was always like a bucket list trip for me. Um, I watched a video on it from Ian and Anna, and at the time theirs was called the other side, and uh, it looked really, really cool. It just looked almost like it was out of this world. So it was always a bucket list trip for me, and um, you know, we finally got to do it and so it was, it was really fun. Host: What makes Juniper Springs such a great destination? Like, what type of activity should go there? Guest: Just being outside. So, it's really cool. It's in the middle of the Ocala National Forest, it's a campground. Juniper Springs is a campground. And so, they've got like a neat little area that you can pull in and um, they got like a fire pit and tables, but it's really neat because they have the spring area and it's just really beautiful. It's blue water, it's clear, and it's close to Three Sisters, was the other part of that trip that I wanted to take, uh, so you can go and swim with the manatees. It's certain times of year they have them, uh, over there where you can swim with them, uh, swimming, kayaking, yeah, kayaking, hiking is a big one. There are lots of trails, um, actually when we checked in, there was somebody who was lost in the forest and emergency vehicles were pulling up and someone's like, yeah, somebody's like lost or hurt or something, we were like, oh my, so you know, hiking is a big one. I think probably backpacking, there's a lot of land over there to cover but we didn't go backpacking really or hiking, I don't think. We rode our bikes around a lot, um, just explored the area, but definitely like outdoorsy things. And I mean, there's, I think there's off-road trip around there too if you want to take like a dirt B, horses, ATVs, all different, it's really broad, you know, spectrum of things to do. Host: So a lot of outdoor stuff though, that's perfect, and pretty much anyone going with their camper or their van, that's what they're going for is that outdoor experience. So that sounds awesome. Now did you guys bring your own bikes or did you rent them when you were there? Guest: Um, we brought our own. We have, um, the electric e-bikes, so we brought those. We brought, um, I don't know if we brought our paddleboard, but we brought our kayak, um, which we used at King's Landing, a little like river flow type thing, um, so yeah, we brought, we did bring our own bikes, and the bikes we bought, they were like, she said the electric e-bikes, so they folded up and they fit in the back underneath the bed, so they're pretty compact and we could get them out and unfold them and ride around nice. Host: Do you know if you saw anywhere around that you could rent like paddleboards or kayaks or bikes from? Guest: So like when we went to King's Landing, I know that they had rentals there, you could take your own and that one was a really, really cool place to see as well. It's spring-fed and all the water's super clear, you can walk through lots of it, um, there are gators and stuff so there's like two different parts of that where you can go up one, um, just to see, you know, the scenery and then there's like a wildlife part of it where you're going to see more, um, like gators and stuff like that. Host: Now, the campground Juniper Springs is in the National FL, and then in these other little areas, how far away are they? How far are you driving? Guest: Oh, I mean, I think, like, I think like an hour or I think, yeah, yeah, 30 minutes to an hour, um, not super, not super long, all in our opinion, maybe an hour, yeah, which we're used to driving a lot. I mean, right now we're driving 1,500 miles a week and so I mean, our not very far to us can be a lot further to other people. Host: But I think it's nice especially for the RV community to have somewhere that you can go that does only take, you know, an hour and a half to get to because then you can either just bounce the next day or stay over there. Um, or you can go and enjoy stuff and then head back to that campground if that's really where you just want to be staying now to get the full experience. How long did you guys stay there for? Guest: We stayed, I think it was a week and, um, I mean it was more than enough to kind of see what was in the area but we moved pretty fast so, um, I mean there's plenty to do for longer than that. Uh, we kind of went in the off-season. Even when you're heading down, there's stuff to do along the way, like Devil's Den is, um, you know, along the way but there's a lot, there's a ton of springs, ton of places to kayak and stuff like that. There's a lot to do around the area. Host: You said you went in the off-season, when was that? Like early March? Guest: Yeah, so it was before, you know, all of the, before the summer crowd really. They were just kind of getting things started, even like the spring break crowd. Like I don't even think that we saw a lot of like, but Al weren't by the beach either so, um, we didn't, you know, it was, it was really pretty chill. We went to the beach but it was closed down, like not closed down but there wasn't like a whole lot of stuff going on. Host: And in March, did you guys have good weather in this area? Guest: Yeah, I mean for the most part. There were some days where it was kind of cloudy and I mean the, the April-May showers type of thing but it cleared up pretty fast. I mean I think it's not uncommon for it to rain and then be sunny in Florida so, it was, it was good. It was decent. Host: And how was the temperature of the water in March? Guest: It was cold. We put our feet in, let the little fish bite our toes but, um, I think it stays around the same temperature most of the year or if not all the year so it, I mean it's pretty chilly but it's not like you can't enjoy it, yeah, absolutely. Host: Now, you guys do have a dog, did you have your dog when you went? Guest: Yes, yeah, he was a puppy, trying to think. I was like, yes, we were afraid that the bears, we had to walk out in the dark a few times and we were afraid that the bears were going to come in, which I mean we're not from an area that there are bears, yeah, so like every sound we heard or even like in the van sleeping, we're like, do you hear that? Which now, you know, we're a little bit, since we've traveled more, yeah, it's not like as intimidating and they don't, we didn't see a single bear while we were there, nobody had any issues with a bear. I mean we had bear spray just in case, needed it but, I mean people were out at night, you know, cooking stuff on a campfire and all sorts of stuff. I mean nobody had any issues with a bear, I think it was just because we were new travelers, better to be cautious. They have like warning signs, like lock up all your belongings and so the, they do have, uh, warning signs when you come in, trash cans and stuff are all, you know, and in lock down bin. Yeah, yeah, Hank loved it, he, he was just a puppy we had just, we got him in January of that year and we went in March so he was only like two months old so he had a blast. We were still actually trying to potty train him at the time too so he was still doing really good. Host: So, obviously, you drove there but how does transportation work like where is this National Forest in relation to some of those major airports if someone doesn't have a van and wants to fly and enjoy the campground in the National Forest? Guest: Yeah, I mean there's, there's airports you can fly in, you can rent cars and get to all those places. Um, say we, the closest we were Orlando, yeah, it wasn't far from Orlando, it wasn't very far from there, maybe some closer options but I know that there, you know, it's not very far from a lot of those airports that are, you know, down there in that area. I think there's quite a few of them, um, I'm not sure right off the top of my head which ones exactly they are. Host: Why don't you, um, tell us just a little bit about the campground and kind of some of the amenities that they had there? Guest: Yeah, um, I mean they had biking trails, uh, they had walking trails, you could go backpacking in, uh, that specifically that area, they had like, um, they, a shower room, they had like a little room, um, beside the showers so you could go like with a sink and I think and you could go and wash your dishes, um, the Ocala National Forest is huge so, um, I think there's a lot of stuff just right there by it, there's different lodging and and stuff like that. Host: Awesome, we love National Forests because a lot of times you can do dispersed camping there so it makes it nice where you can just kind of explore, pull off, find an area that doesn't have a no camping sign and you're usually good to stay there for the night and that's some of the best spots that we've found so it's nice that you have the option for the campground but you're also in the National Forest, you could probably drive out and stay somewhere for a night and you know, feel like you're really in the middle of the national forest. Guest: Yes and things, I think things are a lot harder, you know, when you get, I think somebody said east of the Mississippi is a lot harder to find, you know, dispersed camping but it's definitely doable. I mean you, we use apps like iOverlander and stuff like that that help out too so, yeah. Host: We've used eye Overlander a lot, and that has almost always pointed us in a good direction. So in this area, what is there to do at night? Guest: We did a lot of just, you know, camping stuff. I mean, we just, you know, make s'mores or roast, you know, hot dogs, have a campfire. I think it's just mostly like outdoor stuff. A lot of the stuff seems to kind of close down at night. I mean, you can travel into some of the other places like Daytona Beach. There's a lot of stuff to do around there, so it just kind of depends on what you're looking for and what you like. Host: Yeah, definitely. In Florida, there's something for everybody. Guest: It's not too far from other things to do at night, but where we were at mostly, it was just, you know, kind of campfire activities, hanging out with each other, relaxing. Host: Yeah, so that's perfect. That's what, you know, being in nature is all about. How was the stargazing? Were there open areas for that? Guest: There were, for sure. I mean, you could get out of the campground and drive kind of through the forest, and there's places to pull off on the sides of the road and stuff, and you can get out. I mean, it's really dark, easy to see stars and stuff like that, but where we were at, there was a lot of coverage. Host: Yeah, very good. Sunset or sunrise locations, did you get to see any good ones? Guest: Yeah, more towards like the beaches. So, good pictures at Daytona Beach of our van with the palm trees and stuff in the back. So, in the Ocala National Forest is, you know, mainland, I guess you would call it, or inland, I think that's the word I was looking for. So if you travel more towards the beaches, I mean, that's not to say that there could be other places that we didn't see, but a lot of the sunset pictures at the beach and stuff like that were really, really cool. I mean, it's, there's not really anything like seeing a sunset at a beach. Host: So, as far as overall cost for this trip for you guys, was it more expensive or less expensive than you expected? Guest: I think it was less expensive than we expected, just because we had budgeted more just for activities and stuff, but a lot of the stuff wasn't very expensive. Like, we brought our own inflatable kayak to go on King's Landing. It was less expensive than renting a kayak there. And a lot of the amenities were just free, you know? I mean, we had to pay for our campsite, but it was fairly cheap. The biggest expense was gas to get there, actually.vSo under budget that we decided after we left that we were going to go up to Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, and see that too. Host: That's always nice when you have extra money in your budget and you can just add something else in. Guest: For sure. We did that. Yeah, it was fun. Host: Awesome. Now, did you guys have any good food spots in the area that you were in, or did you have to really pack everything in and cook at your campfire? Guest: That's, we kind of packed everything in and cooked everything, you know? We made sandwiches. At the time, she was T of money. She was a staff nurse and I worked at the school, so it wasn't like we had a ton of money. We were kind of on a budget then, so we just ate, you know, sandwiches and cooked cheap stuff and really just traveled to see the place, you know, and experience it, not necessarily spend a bunch of money. We've never been, you know, huge on like going and doing all these attractions and stuff. Ours was just really to see the environment, get to say we've been there, and just enjoy it for what it was, you know, what it had to offer. And I think we were excited to cook and do everything for the first time in our van, too. Host: Absolutely, just really be in the van and experience that, of course. Plus, with the new puppy, you probably didn't want to venture out too far from him. Very cool. So if you haven't mentioned it already, are there any other nearby attractions? Guest: Yeah, there's lots. I mean, there's, um, Orlando's not like crazy, crazy far, so you can go to, you know, Disney. We went to Three Sisters, we went to King's Landing. I mean, there's a lot to do. Host: Perfect. And on your way, I guess you can stop and listen to our podcast with Eric Adventures. She did on Disney. Stop there and do that, and then head to the national forest and listen to your guys's podcast. That's perfect. Host: All right, guys, well, it's time for the final three questions, the 3-2-1 countdown section of the podcast. So, what are three things you have to pack when you go to this Juniper Springs area? Guest: Bug spray, yeah, bug spray for sure. Host: I was gonna ask. Guest: I think another one would be, if you can, like a bike or a kayak or something to kind of entertain yourself outside. So, I mean, you don't even have to have those, just like some sort of outdoor activity, whether it be like frisbee or ball, or you know, I guess you don't have to do that kind of stuff, but, you know, that was something that was important to us. And then with staying at the campground, it's not like it's super, super close to town. I think it's like 15 or 20 minutes to the town. So, you know, pack your food in there and then, you know, take your trash and dispose of it on the way out. Host: Perfect. So bug spray, food, and something to do outside, some sort of activity, yeah, whether it's a bike or a kayak or a football. That's a good point. I feel like I've gone to the beach so many times and there you go to the beach, you lay down or you go for a walk or you go for a swim, but I remember thinking repeatedly, I wish I had like a football or just something to throw around, a frisbee, football, you know, whatever. Guest: I'm the same way. I'm not much of a lounger. I like to do stuff that's, you know, fun, whether it be ride a bike or a one-wheel or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Host: Yeah, I like to lounge, but it's good to, like, work up a sweat, throw a ball around, and jump in the water and just repeat, right? Guest: Right, for sure. Host: What are two complaints that somebody might have about this area? And not necessarily complaints, but things people should be prepared for. And I feel like I know the answer to one already. Guest: Yeah, so like driving would be one. The other would be maybe like cell phone signal and service. I don't... which one were you thinking that I was thinking? Host: The bugs, but. Guest: Oh yeah, yeah, bugs for sure. That's the first one that came to my mind. Host: So, in terms of driving, it's just the drive to get there or are you driving kind of for long periods to get back and forth to the town or like a grocery store is a little ways away? Guest: So, like, like I said, it's like 20 minutes. So, it's not like you're just driving right on into town to get something. You know, it's a little bit of a... get something. So that may be a complaint some people. The other one is like signal, you know? There's not... now there's Starlink. When we went, there wasn't Starlink. So you may be able to have something like that, but for us, we didn't have any cell phone signal. We didn't have any way to contact anybody if we needed to, which I, you know, that's a blessing and a curse, I guess. Host: Well, whether it's a blessing or a curse, it's still something you should be prepared for, so that's a good tip to bring up. Host: And last question, guys. We talked about a lot of things in this episode, but what is one thing if you had to pick that you cannot leave Juniper Springs without doing? Guest: I'd say going to do King's Landing. It's just a lot of cool, like, photo-like opportunities, like it's just really that, like, photo-like that picture-perfect moment that not even, like, really even your camera can capture. Like, it's just so beautiful. And we have tons of pictures of it posted, I think on our Instagram or maybe our separate Instagrams, but a very beautiful place. I think that's one place that I would... Yeah, like if you look up like videos of it or whatever or see pictures, you know, when you show up to that place, it's going to be exactly if not better than what you've seen online. So, it was just really beautiful, clear water, it just felt like you were in, you know, an oasis, yeah, but the trees over top of you and yeah, it was just a unique experience that I don't think you would get anywhere else. Host: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of those places where, like, you know, photos, they're always going to look better in person, but oftentimes, like, a thing that looks really cool in person, it doesn't look that cool in a photo. But the King's Landing is one of those things that it's both. In person, it's amazing, I would imagine. I haven't been there yet, but the photos of it look amazing too. Guest: You've been to places where it looks really cool, you know, and you get there and it's not quite as NE, yeah, but this one, yeah, it's everything that you would imagine. So, we even tried to paddle, like, when we were... I think when we were heading up, we were going like with the current. So, we were like trying to slow down just so that way we could like just take it all in a little bit slower. Maybe it was on the way back, I'm not sure. When you go up, you go against the current, on the way back, you go with the current. Host: Sweet, guys. This was another super informative travel tips segment. One more time, listeners, if you haven't tuned into the first episode, they talked about their travel nursing and their van builds, so definitely check that one out. And yeah, Hope and I, we're excited. We're going to go to Florida over the next couple of months here and we definitely want to add this to our list too. So maybe Disney and then we've got Florida Keys and we'll have to stop in Juniper Springs too. Awesome, guys. All right. And one last question, where can our audience find out more about you? Guest: We're on Instagram @Kodaandcourt is our name. And we have a YouTube channel. Maybe we'll start uploading to it. We'll just, you know, see what kind of happens. Host: Sweet. All right, Dakota and Courtney, thanks again. Guest: Thank you.

19. Travel Nursing & TWO Van Conversions @kodaandcourt

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 25, 2024 53:15

https://atravelpath.com/ Hey Pathfinders! Today's episode felt like a 2-for-1since we got a dose of both Travel Nursing AND Van Conversions. Dakota and Courtney are a young couple who “chase big dreams trying to make it happen.” In this inspiring episode you'll hear all about: Travel Nursing How to get started, how long the process takes, how long you can work an assignment for, and so on. Courtney shares how travel nursing can be quite nerve-wracking at first, but as you become familiar with the process, things get easier. Where to Stay With travel nursing, there are several options available for places to stay. Dakota and Courtney share their experiences at many of them and tell us what they prefer. We also get into detail about why you need to have a paper trail and pay some sort of rent wherever you end up. Van Conversions Along with travel nursing, Dakota and Courtney have (nearly) completed two van builds. The beauty of this episode is that we got to ask them why they sold their first one, and what they are doing differently with this next built. Plus, hear about how it took them over 9 MONTHS to receive the first van they ordered. Costs Dakota and Courtney give us very detailed numbers on how much BOTH of their van builds cost as well as sharing tips on how you can start saving money. They also share their thoughts on how much someone might want to have saved up before traveling. Chapters · 00:00 Intro · 02:30 What is the process of getting into Travel Nursing? · 07:15 Travel Nure pay and stipends · 12:30 How are you finding places to stay? · 15:30 Working with Aya Healthcare · 16:15 Can you negotiate your terms? · 20:30 What was the process of acquiring your van? · 28:30 How did you know what material to buy for your van? · 29:30 Why did you sell your first van? · 32:00 What are you doing differently with your current van build? · 34:45 What mistakes did you make with your van build? · 38:15 How long did each van build take? · 40:15 What has been your coolest travel experience? · 43:00 How much money should you have saved up before traveling? · 45:15 How much did your van builds cost? · 46:45 How can someone get started? · 49:45 What YouTube channels helped with your van build? Dakota and Courtney on Social · Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kodaandcourt/ · YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kodaandcourt Nursing: · Aya Healthcare: https://www.ayahealthcare.com/ · GSA.gov: https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/per-diem-rates · Regarding if your RV loan counts as a payment, I couldn't find much information besides this forum, so take it for what it is worth and do your own research: https://www.reddit.com/r/TravelNursing/comments/13rjt3n/rv_travel_nursing/ Stays · The hospital Courtney started at: https://www.evanhospital.com/ · Furnished Finders: https://www.furnishedfinder.com/ · Where they Stayed: https://www.facebook.com/TheDeLongVillage/ Van Build Resources · Explorist.life: https://explorist.life/ · Far Out Ride: https://faroutride.com/ Their Two Vans: · Ram ProMaster 136 · Ram ProMaster 159 Channels · Jimmy and Natalie: https://www.youtube.com/@JimmyandNatalie · Wild by the Mile: https://www.youtube.com/@WildbytheMile Past Episodes Mentioned: Episode 1 with Dylan: https://atravelpath.com/how-to-be-a-digital-nomad/ Episode 13 with Jason and Laura: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-with-kids/ Most Popular Blogs: · Most Popular Travel Hacks: https://atravelpath.com/money-saving-travel-tips/ · Travel Gear: https://atravelpath.com/travel-gear/ · How to Budget For Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/how-to-budget-for-gas-for-a-road-trip/ · Our Favorite RV Upgrades: https://atravelpath.com/rv-upgrades/ · How Much We Made Renting Our RV: https://atravelpath.com/renting-camper-van/ · Never Run Out of Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-tip/ Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Transcript Host: Dakota and Courtney, welcome to the Travel Path Podcast! Guest: Hey. Host: So you're on Instagram as @KotaandCourt, documenting your travels across 25 states so far, and we're really excited to finally have a travel nurse on the show. You've completed one and are on your second van build, so I can already tell there's going to be a lot of information to uncover with this podcast. But why don't we first start by having you share a little about yourselves? Guest: Well, we're just two kids from small towns in Missouri. I'm from a little town called Nevada, Missouri, and she's from Shell City, Missouri. She graduated with, like, 13 kids, so very small. Yeah, so not too much. I mean, had 35 cars and I'm 25 years old, so do a lot of that kind of stuff and just, you know, chase big dreams and try to make them happen. Yeah, that's it. Host: And travel while you can. So I'm sure those 25 you've had are going to help or have helped out with your van conversion. Um, so we'll definitely get into the van conversion later on in the show. I do want to get into travel nursing. If you've been paying attention to the podcast recently, we've had a few people mention travel nursing. So we're finally able to talk about it and bring it up here. So tell us about that. So obviously with travel nursing, you get your degree in nursing, you find a job with nursing somewhere, and then at some point, the idea of travel nursing comes to your mind. So what's that process of actually getting into nursing? Guest: Oh gosh, um, it's honestly kind of difficult. It's not difficult, but it's a big process. You have to find, um, sometimes it's, for me especially, it was hard trying to find, like, the right company. Um, you hear good things and bad things, um, obviously with everybody. So I kind of just picked a popular one. I'm with a healthcare. You basically, like, sign yourself up, so it's kind of like a job, um, application. You sign yourself up, you get a recruiter, and then they kind of just, like, help guide you through the process. Um, you have to fill out a bunch of tax forms, go get, like, physicals and labs drawn, um, basically do a bunch of requirements, like a huge checklist they have. And then, you know, obviously, there's a shortage of nurses everywhere, so you can really pick wherever you want to go, which is really cool. You can go to, um, you know, Alaska, Florida. Um, there are even some nursing companies that will allow you to go to, like, Mexico and Canada, like over, like, international travel nursing. So the process is difficult, but once you actually, um, you know, talk to a recruiter and talk to your people, um, it's a fairly simple process. So, um, you know, definitely, if you're trying to be a travel nurse, you know, I'd suggest to anybody. It's really nerve-wracking though, but they need travel nurses pretty, I mean, they want to do anything they can to get you in there, so they work with you pretty well. Host: Yeah, yeah, so difficult but simple is what it sounded like. In terms of the time frame, how long are we talking between actually getting approved for travel nursing? Guest: Oh gosh, you have to have your experience first, yeah. You have to, so, technically, for travel nursing, they really recommend you to have one to two years of experience just because when you get assigned to a job, you really only have like one day of training. So, like, you're just expected to know, like, all of these things, and, you know, if you don't, if you just go kind of blind, you know, it can be a disaster. Um, sometimes still is, you know, just 'cause every hospital is different. But I would say probably, I don't know, I started looking, I'd say around April or May, so I'd say maybe two to three months. It kind of just depends on how, you know, it's kind of like a you-driven thing too, you know, and how bad you want it. We kind of were just like, I don't really know if we want to do this, but I'll just go ahead and, you know, sign up and get all my ducks in a row, and then if we become more interested, we can go from there. So I'd say probably two to three months. I had to put in my two weeks, um, my two weeks at my previous job, and then, you know, find a job there. Um, in Pennsylvania was my first assignment, but it's pretty easy afterwards, though, yeah. Super easy, you have connections, you have about four different people who help you get like an experience specialist, you get your recruiter who really just helps you with, um, finding a job. You just have all different kinds of help with, but afterwards, after you get like your first job, then it's a lot easier. So it's like you can pretty much line up a job right after the next one if you want, as long as you have time to get there. So like she quit her last job, we had a week off, and I think it was like two weeks until she started her next contract, so she already signed one while she was working. Yeah, so you can sign with, you know, whatever company or whoever after you kind of get in it, just basically getting, getting your foot in the door, getting a reputation, and then you're able to kind of move wherever you want to go. Host: You mentioned one day of training. That sounds crazy to me because I've been in hospitals where it seems like it would take a week just to figure out where to go, and you can get lost in some of these places. So that means you're showing up at this job for the first time, you're like maybe like a mini orientation training, getting to know everybody, and then you're kind of fed to the wolves and you're travel nursing and you're doing nursing. Guest: Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's crazy. The knowledge has to be, um, you know, you just, you kind of just have to go in headfirst. Um, even now, I will say that I still, you know, sometimes don't know where everything's at or even like hospital policies, everything's different. So, you know, just don't be afraid to ask questions, definitely. Um, is my thing, but yeah, just one day of training and you are on your own. Host: Wow. I would imagine that one day of training, obviously, it's a little bit more difficult to maneuver, and that comes with what we've heard is with travel nursing, there's higher pay rates, and there's the travel sties. Is that still the case today? Guest: Yes, right, or they're not as high as they used to be. No, definitely not. During COVID, nurses were making a lot of money. Stipends are... I would say that, I mean, even for me, just going from just a low-paying nursing job in drop-in Missouri to now, I say that stipends are really good for me, but if you talk to the next person, they're like, "Oh, this sucks." You know, it's a pretty controversial space because some people will say it's good money, and other people say, "Oh, well, you shouldn't accept a job for lower than this rate," and people get kind of agitated. But the stipends are really what make it worth doing the travel nursing. Yeah, so I mean, the hourly rate has an effect, but the stipends really make it worth it. Yeah, so basically, like, travel nurses get paid, like, a really low hourly rate. Like, if you would know, you would just have to be mind blown. But they get paid a super low hourly rate so that way they can max out your stipends, which are tax-free. So in the end, like, you end up making more money. Sometimes you have to negotiate for those. You have to kind of watch out. And I mean, if you get a good recruiter, they'd be pretty good with you. But you can get on a website like gsa.gov, I think, and it'll tell you kind of what the stipends are in the area that you're at and stuff. We kind of dove into it head first, kind of like buying a car. It's kind of confusing when you first get into it. We didn't really know what we were doing. We dove head first and we didn't realize, you know, you have to do certain things to get, you know, the tax-free stipends. So it's for housing and what stipends are for. And you're supposed to duplicate expenses to get those stipends. So essentially, you're supposed to pay rent back where you are from, like your permanent tax home, right? So you have to have, like, a tax home. And you can look up the requirements for a tax home. And then you also are supposed to be paying rent somewhere else. So like where you're traveling to as a nurse. And those can be, like, shared housing. But you have to be paying, like, both at the same time. So like for us, now that we're getting ready to be in a van, whenever we're traveling somewhere, we have to stay at a campground because that'll be our rent. Host: Okay, so there's no way around just boondocking the whole entire time. They want to see some sort of rent payment at the campsite. Guest: Yeah, you have to have a paper trail to show. I mean, now there are people that don't do it, you know, and they say, "Oh, I've never been caught." But I mean, if you get audited by the IRS, you're gonna owe some big money back. Host: Well, that's a really good tip you bring up, and I'm glad you bring that up about how you have to actually hunker down in a campsite and have proof of spending money on rent somewhere. 'Cause I have two sisters, one of them actually travel nurses. Both of them are nurses. We talked about before the podcast, one of them did travel nurse and the other one was, has been thinking about it. But I kind of told her, "Yeah, just get a van, get a dog, and just, you know, drive and boondock." But so they do want to see some source of income. So if you're listening to this, Jess or Chloe, make sure you're doing that. Guest: Yeah, and we didn't have any idea. They just asked her where she worked at and where she was from, where we lived at, and they said, "Oh, well, you qualify for the stipends." And they kind of had a sign the paperwork and we had no idea. I think I found like a video, like on Facebook Reels or TikTok or something. I was like, "Hey, do you know about this?" And he's like, "What?" Yeah, so we had, so I had to do a lot of research on it and try to figure it out and, you know, it all worked and had to talk to an accountant, really confused. And this was the first time really we had even done anything like that. So we were like, "We don't even know what to do." Host: Yeah, no, it's smart to do that. And I'm sure that might vary a little bit depending on your contracts. Do you know if, so I know you built out your van, so I don't think you owe anything on your van? Guest: Yeah, we do. We financed the van. So we, for the, we, we financed the van. Host: So I guess my next question was going to be if, if, like, you had a payment on your van or a camper, if that would count as rent. I'm not sure. Do you know if they would consider that? Guest: I don't think so because, um, one of the people that we were, I mean, it is a good question. I'm not, I'm not for sure, so don't quote me. But, um, the person that we were kind of following off of, um, I believe they had theirs, uh, they had an RV, like a fifth wheel, and I believe, leased or not leased, but they had a lien on it or a loan, whatever you want to call it. I believe they still had to stay at a campground. Now, I mean, that is a good question. I'd have to look into that because I wonder about that. Host: For sure. And if we can dig that up, I'll put a link in the show notes. So you talked about, I know your long-term play, you have your second van almost built and that's where you're going to be living in while you're travel nursing in the future moving forward. But right now you're signing these three to four-month kind of midterm leases, so they can be tricky to find, at least that's fully furnished. So how are you finding places to stay? Guest: We go off, there's a lot of different places. But for my first one, we went off of Furnish Finders. So it's just like an Airbnb or like a Verbo for nurses or just any traveling professional. So it doesn't have to be a nurse, but they're marketed towards, you know, people that have, you know, like, I guess, could be like a welder or a nurse or, you know, anybody that works odd hours. Guest: Yeah, we actually were on the other side of that coin. We have a couple rental properties, and we've rented two with Furnish Finders, travel nurses. We, we had like poets and authors who just come for like those shorter periods, yeah. But it is marketed towards travel nurses. Host: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what that's what we use. Um, we looked at all avenues. We found Furnish Finders was cheaper than like Verbo, Airbnb, or even like we looked at hotels too, and it was just like thrown out of the picture because that's ridiculous. Um, from the time she decided she was going to do travel nursing, I think it was like two weeks before she signed her first contract, then we were like moving, yeah. And so we packed all our stuff in the back of a Jeep, and we hours away headed out to Pennsylvania. So it was a, was quite a ways. It seems like a lot of the travel nurses that she works with are just from around the area. So like right now, she's in, seems like a lot of people from Kansas. When she was in Pennsylvania, seemed like a lot, yeah. And they were like, "Oh my gosh, you're all the way from Missouri." And, you know, like I have an accent, and they're like, "Where are you from? We know you're from somewhere not around here." Host: How far in advance have you found, so I would imagine you secure the contract many months in advance. But in terms of actually booking a place to stay, how far in advance are you planning that? Guest: I mean, from your first one, it was like two weeks. We started looking, and it was like within two weeks, we were up there at a place. Host: I would imagine does your travel agent help out with that at all in terms of finding places to go? Guest: Yes, they offer, but I was already like halfway to finding a house before they were like, "Hey, you know, we'll help you if you need it." And I'm like, "That's great," but yeah, a lot of people do use, you know, their people assigned to help to do that. But I, I was so excited about my first assignment. I was just like, I had a house found, like, all these things before somebody even messaged me, and they were like, "Hey, do you need help finding a home?" I was like, "I already have one. I've already, you know, put a deposit down." They're like, "Oh, okay, well, never mind then." That first one we went, what was the population of that town? Like 80 people, something like that, in a very tiny Amish town. Host: Get to see all sorts of places. And if you end up at a place you don't like that much, you're only there for like three, four months, so you can find another place. You mentioned you're working with Aya, and does that in terms of finding other places to go, are you limited to like hospitals that they own, or how does that work? Guest: Nope, so every travel company is different. I just, A, is, I don't know, they're really popular, I guess you could say, like among travel nurses. So like, certain hospitals will have contracts with these travel companies, so A has a lot. But for say like, if you go to a different travel company, you know, they may be hiring at like these certain hospitals that don't have contracts with A. So it's different, but A holds a lot of contracts with a lot of hospitals. So I just went with them. Host: And then how flexible in terms of how long do you want to stay somewhere for? If you want to stay there for like two months, four months, six months, are you able to kind of negotiate that? And then also like your actual hours, if you're working nights, days, how many hours a week, is that all negotiable? Guest: Yep, so whenever you go to sign up for a job, it will tell you like whether it's a day shift or a night shift job. So I'm a day shift, so I work 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., usually 7:30 to 8:00 p.m. So I really am like a 13, 14-hour shifter. And then as far as like staying at that job for however long, you can actually stay up to a travel assignment for 364 days. You just can't work a full year because if you do, say like, I'm working in Topeka right now, I can stay there for 364 days. But if I stay there that 365th day, it's considered my tax home now, so it just kind of messes up a whole bunch of things. So you can extend at a job, you just let your recruiter know. Usually, they'll message you first and be like, "Hey, are you liking your assignment? Do you want to extend?" And I actually have accepted an extension in Topeka. So I'm there until April 27th. And then from there, if you decide to work the whole 364, all you have to do by law is take 30 days off, and then you can go right back to that same job for another year or 36. I think they cap it. Like, I think you can only do that for two years. There's, there's, I don't know exactly what it is. It's complicated, but there are a lot of like, logistical or maybe it's not logistical, but it's requirements. So you can only do things, I think, in certain states for so long, and every state is different, every state has different, yeah. I think that there's like, make it confusing. Yeah, yeah. But it seems to be that the most common are like 13-week contracts, and then there are some that are what, what's the other one, like eight? Yeah, they do, you can do four weeks if they're like a crisis job, which means that they just need you right away. You can go and sign for a four-week contract. And where you can go, usually the average is 13 to 26 weeks, so that's what I did on my first assignment. And now I'm at six weeks now on my second assignment. Host: Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. A lot of options to extend. On the landlord side, we made it a point to ask our when we're hosting travel nurses if they're going to extend because we've had several times now where, like, we've gotten a booking after that lease is up but then they'll tell us, "Hey, can I extend?" And, like, oh, sorry, we just booked somebody else. So now we're actually actively asking like, hey, are you looking to extend? And then we'll do that because that does happen more often than not, when travel nurses in particular, they'll extend their stay. Guest: Yeah, that, that's what our um, our landlord in Pennsylvania did. She like, about halfway through, she said, "Hey, you know, just going to post this up, you know, on Furnish Finders. So just wondering, you know, can I, can I show it to people and post it? Or are you guys planning to extend?" So yeah, that's, it is good that she asked. Host: Yeah, for sure. Guest: And your first assignment was a really good one for like, anybody that would want to try to get into it. I mean, if they were looking into like trying to just get their foot in the door and try it out and see if they liked it, I mean, she worked in a hospital in, um, what was it, Lewisburg, Pennsylvania? It's called Evangelical Community Hospital, a small little Community Hospital like 220 beds, pretty easy, tiny. And we stayed at a place called The Dong Village, and the landlords there were wonderful. I mean, and so like if you are looking into it and you're trying to just kind of find something that, you know, is good, know that, it's going to, not it's not going to be hard right off the bat, you're not going to be thrown to the wolves, like some of the other stuff. That's a good, you know, um, that's how we started or how she started, not me. Host: Well, awesome guys. I think this was a really informative segment on getting into travel nursing. And I think it would be really cool to have you guys back on once you have your van up and mobile and you're actually travel nursing with your van to talk about how you guys are finding places to stay, how you've been acclimating to that lifestyle. But speaking of that, like I mentioned before, you guys have done not one but you're working on your second van conversion. So we can dig into that a little bit now. Before we talk about the actual build, I know you ran into a little bit of trouble actually acquiring the van. So what was that process like just getting your hands on the van? Guest: Yeah, so I mean, we started the idea I think like four or five years ago that we wanted to do van life. And we were just, I mean, we're really, really young. I remember telling all my family at Christmas time that we wanted to live in a van. They all thought we were crazy. And so, so it took us a while after that to kind of, she had to graduate nursing school to be able to do that. We actually moved out, got an apartment because we lived with my parents until she was done with nursing school. We got an apartment, and we lived in an apartment for six months, and we decided we just were looking at the cost of what it was, you know, adding up to be. We didn't own the place, we kind of wanted to do something else. And I made a joke one night that we could move back in with my parents, and that we could save a ton of money and potentially do van life. And so, you know, it led into more serious conversation. We talked to my parents again, and of course, my parents, they're, you know, really chill, and they agreed, and they said, "Yeah, come on back." And so we moved back in with them, and we started working towards saving up to buy a van, which was kind of tough because she was a, she was a new nurse. I mean, anybody that works at a school tell you that the pay there is pretty low. So we moved back in with them, we started saving up, and we decided we were going to put a deposit down on one. It was, it was hard finding, oh my gosh, try to find, we, we decided we were going to try to get one, and we called, I don't know, probably 50 dealerships across the nation. We didn't really care where it was, we thought, well, we were going to drive anywhere, yeah, we would fly in or drive or do whatever it took. We called like 50 dealerships, you couldn't find them. Host: Did you have like a specific van you wanted, or were you open to any type of? Guest: So we wanted a ProMaster because of the cost. I mean, it's cheap. I think that there are better options if you have the budget for them, you know, that's just my personal opinion. A lot of people like, you know, there's Mercedes, there's Ford Transit, but we decided on ProMaster. And so anything that we found during that time, it was, you know, in the height of the pandemic, they had a called a market adjustment where they marked them up about 15 to 20,000. So it was crazy because you could order one, and we found a dealership in Arizona and they were going to order us one for MSRP. And we were initially told that it would take three or four months and we would have the van. And so we thought, well, that work. Ecstatic, we're like, oh yeah, that's great. And so I had just paid off my car the day before, and we didn't have any money. And the lady at the dealership said, "Orders will be closing any time now because they're going to start retooling for the next year." Luckily, I went to my mom for the second time in my life to borrow some money, and she loaned us a little bit of money to put a down payment on it. And that was stressful, and luckily, I got her paid back within two weeks. And so we put the down payment on, and we started buying stuff, trying to, yeah, accumulate all we would need for the van build. I sold the car that I had, that I paid off, and that kind of gave us the money to put towards the van. So we were going to finance the van and just use the money that I had from the car to buy all the stuff for it. We bought a lot of stuff. I think we bought like $10,000 worth of stuff before we even had the, yeah, and so we were waiting and waiting and waiting, and they were like, oh well, it's gonna come next month, oh, it's gonna come next month, it's gonna come next month. And it just started to get to the point where we were nine months in, and they kept saying it, and we didn't know, you know, we didn't know how long it was going to be um so we got really discouraged and I mean I'm really bad about it I I buy and sell vehicles all the time when I get bored and I think it's hard for me to kind of like stay on one thing so my mind was kind of racing on what else we could do and we just decided that we would sell all the stuff and any of the money that we made back from that we put towards you know another vehicle and we were just going to make it really fast so we bought another Mustang we canceled our order and um we had that Mustang for two months and we rolled across the dealership in town and they had a we had ordered a 159 ProMaster and um there was a 136 sitting on the lot of a local dealership and you couldn't hardly find them at the time so um we went and looked in the windows and I said we could really do this uh you know we can we can figure it out we could make this happen and so we looked in it the next day I went and test drove it and the next day after that I had a check in hand from the bank we purchased it the day after that I had contacted a dealership in Oklahoma that bought one of my friends cars and they said yeah we'll buy it so I took it down there and they bought it off of me and we started building our um our first van we had to buy it all over again so we bought all the stuff. Host: That's incredible. So sold your car, ordered a van, ordered all the parts and material for the van, waited 9 months, didn't come in, sold the material, bought another car, and then you found that exact van you wanted for sale two months later and picked and then swapped them out. That's crazy. And I'm glad you bring that up because that's something a lot of people probably won't even consider when they're going to do a van build is actually it might take upwards of a year to actually get the van itself. And you, I know you mentioned you're constantly doing different things but also another thing you guys were excited, you had all this stuff, these parts lying around, you probably had coming up with designs and things you wanted to do and that probably made it more painful having to continue to wait and get the update, another month, another month. So, wow, I can say it's definitely dedication, the fact that you guys stuck it out and ended up finally getting your van. But that's crazy. Is that something you've seen? I know that was during COVID, right? So that's when materials and supplies were crazy. Has that tamed and kind of slowed down? Can it be easier to get one of those vans now, I would imagine? Guest: Yeah, we just drove by one on the way here, like, to this podcast. We were at a sister's house and just right down the road there's just, we're like, "Hey, look, there's one just sitting out front." And they actually had one in the back, too. So much easier. Yeah, I think the biggest struggle, though, with the whole thing was also watching, like, you know, I think that it's, you know, a lot of the people that do van life don't do it forever. I think that's like an important thing to know when you're getting into it, is that like most people don't do it forever and a lot of people get burnt out with it. There are some people that don't. Kind of got to know what you're wanting out of it. But like when we had all our stuff, I mean, we started buying stuff and looking into doing things, it was a little over a year before that. And so some of the people that we had met and made friends with and we were excited to do it, we watched them build their vans, they had already sold their stuff, too. But as far as like getting ahold of vans, uh, yeah, it's a lot easier now. I think that, I think that the wait times can still be somewhat long depending on where you order it from. On the second van, we just rolled into town, there was one on the lot. And it's kind of crazy because the car market has dropped tremendously. I mean, it fell on spas really. So we looked at our van, it was, uh, 30, 39,000. And when we came back just a few weeks later after she finished her assignment, it dropped all the way down to like 33. So I, it was, it was within a matter of like four to six weeks, the market's definitely changing. Host: Those inflated prices are finally coming down. I was curious, you bought, so you bought parts and material for the van, how did you know what to buy? Are there like websites or kits you can buy that are custom for like specific van frames? Or how'd you go about doing that? Guest: Yeah, so a lot of the stuff we bought, um, at the beginning was like electrical stuff, we knew we were going to need that. Um, there are websites. We follow a lot of um, schematics from uh, Far Out Ride is one of the websites. There's another one that does sell more of like kits, um, Explorist.life. I think is what it's called, his Nate Yarbrough. Um, and I mean, he's got a ton of information. You can buy schematics on there. Um, and I've referenced those. I haven't bought any from it. Um, but yeah, we just kind of started sizing up our electrical system, and we went with some of the more expensive components. On our first one, we bought a bunch of Victron stuff, and you know, the wiring, the wire itself can be expensive as well. And then just little stuff that we wanted in it. So we didn't buy any like wood, most of it was just, you know, things you would need to get started. Um, and I don't, I don't even know what all we spent. I mean, we spent a bunch of money on a lot of stuff. I think mostly it was electrical though. Host: So obviously, so you ended up selling that first van that you converted. Why did you end up selling it? Guest: Well, it was just really, we found out really fast that when we started it, it was just the two of us and we didn't really, I didn't want a dog, but we ended up with one. And so, and I love him to death. I was never an animal person. We went into a place, my sister was looking at a dog, and my parents wanted to go look at the dogs, and we went in there, and there was this little dog in there, and we just fell in love with him. And now I'm an animal person. So, but found out it was just, it got really tight, really fast with two people and a dog. And then the other thing was, is that we didn't put an air conditioner in it. And so, really hot, a lot of people say, you know, I've heard a lot of people say that they can get by with just two fans, you know, you don't need to spend the money on the air conditioner, and that's great if you can chase the weather and stuff. But we live in the Midwest, and it gets really hot, really hot. And so, by the time we had finished that van, I think we kind of knew we were in trouble because it was just really hot. I mean, we couldn't even barely finish it because we were so hot. It was, you know, it'd be like 80 degrees, 85 degrees outside, and it'd be over 100 degrees in the van. And, you know, you could have the fans on and it'd still be like 96. We just got to thinking, she wanted to do travel nursing and if she needed to take a job in like Arizona or something in the heat of the summer, we needed to be able to, you know, go there and live comfortably. We also needed something that would keep our dog safe as well. And so, we ultimately decided to sell it because we would have needed to upgrade our electrical system, we would have needed, you know, tear out a lot of the ceiling, and at that point, we were just kind of over it. We were just done with building, it took a long time and all of our friends that we had met were like done, so we were just like, we don't, you know, we just, we're done with it too, we were discouraged. So, we just decided to sell it, um we posted up because she wanted to do travel nursing um she had already signed a contract by the time that we posted it for sale and a couple uh flew in from South Carolina and bought it for what we had in it so we didn't make any money off of it it was almost I mean it was like 95% finished and um so they got a good deal on it but uh we just knew we needed something different than that. Host: Well, at least despite the prices coming down, you didn't take a bath on it, so with the next van, you put the air conditioning in. Were there any other modifications you're doing with this one that you didn't do the first time? Guest: Yeah, I mean, we're not going to put a shower in this one. Sounds gross, yeah, but we're counting on is we'll try to stay at RV parks that have showers while she's on her contract. We tried to put one like a hidden shower, like a shower and a bench in our last van, and by the time you got the shower pan and then you set the toilet on top of the shower pan, it was like an awkward height, so the bench in there was really uncomfortable to sit on. Really wasn't needed. I mean, you've got Planet Fitness, you've got truck stops, and my buddy is a trucker and he just, we pretty much have unlimited showers at truck stops when we need them, so that's nice. But we weighed out a lot of different options too on like whether we should go with a van. Crazy enough before we even bought this second van we thought we were gonna buy, we were gonna buy an Airstream. I bought a truck actually and I sold it within two days, it's crazy, but I bought a truck and sold it two days later because we decided we were gonna go do a van. So we weighed out the options and really for us a van was the most economical option. By the time you factor in like fuel mileage, so like, you know, there's the three big ones for us was like a class a camper, or RV I guess you call it, or like a pool behind. We looked into even doing like an ambulance, but we even looked at an ambulance New York or Pennsylvania somewhere, yeah, yeah. But by the time you spend fuel on those, it gets to be really expensive. I mean, a half-ton truck, it's like, you know, the older trucks like the one I had was gonna get like nine miles per gallon. A lot of the diesel stuff, it's just high maintenance costs, higher fuel costs, and I didn't know how to work on a diesel. That was a big one for us and so we didn't wanna terrify because if we break down on the road, you know, I'm at the mercy of a mechanic and diesel mechanics are very expensive. So the van just made sense for us, you know, you don't have to have insurance on two vehicles, you just have insurance on the van itself, you can drive wherever you need, now that, that can be a downfall, but we plan to get, like, it's like a dirt bike, a street legal dirt bike later on that we'll use, put a carrier on the back of the van as our secondary Transportation so we don't always have to take it. Host: Were there any mistakes you made with the first or the second build that you want to share that could potentially save a future listener some trouble? Guest: Oh gosh, don't overcomplicate it. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, he knows more about that stuff, I'm kind of just, if you had anything to add, go ahead, but I mean, I think in our first one, we just tried to really pack everything in. We wanted a shower, we wanted, you know, a toilet, we wanted, you know, a kitchen area and stuff. I think that you really find out a lot of stuff when you take your first trip in it. I mean, if you have the money, I know that some people don't have a huge budget to do a van, somebody I'd mentioned this before and somebody said, well, I'd rather take the money that I would use to rent a van, van, and just put it towards my build. But if you have the money to rent a van, I would definitely recommend renting one out and kind of seeing what you use and what you don't, how you like the layout and how you don't, because I think from the first trip that we took, and ours was put together, we realized a lot of things, like our cabinets were really close to our bench and so it made it difficult underneath the sink because we had two cabinets that opened out where you have to be in between them because there wasn't enough room to get past so you were leaning over the cabinet or you had to, you know, wed yourself in there open them up. So there's just a lot of things that you don't think about. Another one was like the shower situation. We thought we were going to put a shower in this one too, our second conversion and we just ultimately decided that we wanted to open feel, we didn't want to feel like we were closed in like our first one, our first van was pretty small was a 136, we've got a 159 now and we just wanted to keep the open feel. Like I said, a lot of the campgrounds have showers, there's a lot of other options, I mean, it just depends on what's important to you. So you know, really think it out, look at other people, ask questions if you can, the best thing you can do is, you know, rent an in or even if you buy one, uh, just try to take a trip in it, you need a lot less than you really think you do. Host: I think you're totally right about the fact that it's, it's your lifestyle, it's going to revolve around what you're doing, like for example, if you're working at your van, you're boondocking all over the place, you're going to want probably a shower and have those facilities, but if you're travel nursing and you're kind of forced to stay at campgrounds, you're going to be using those facilities anyways so you don't necessarily need those in your van so there's a lot to consider before actually getting started there. Guest: Yeah, there's a lot of new tech too that is appealing to a lot of people. They're like, "Oh, I want to put this and this and this." So, like, I know, like, a hydronic floor is, like, I think it's hydronic heated floor is what they call it. A lot of people like to put those and they're... they're, to me, they're really complex and stuff. So, like, I don't... I don't need it, you know? It may be something for somebody else. But, you know, the simpler, in my opinion, the better, the less to go wrong, kind of figure it all out too. So, I feel like the heated floor is just one shake in the van away from that wire to come loose and then for it to just not work right. Host: Well, great, guys. This was a really deep dive into, I guess, not just one but two van builds. I think this is definitely helpful for a lot of people, not just with the build process but also expectations in terms of ordering and the timeline, the overall timeline. So, once you had it, I just want to ask one last question before we wrap up and transition. But how long did that first and second van build take once you actually had the van? Guest: So, our first one took us eight months. Um, we thought it would take us a lot less. We had originally planned on, like, three to four. Took us eight months. We did it in the middle of the winter too, so there were times we both had full-time jobs. Um, so, a lot of... I mean, we didn't work on it but a couple days on the weekends when I had off. It was kind of hard to get our schedules in line because there were sometimes where she would work on weekends and there's a lot of tasks that just require two people, you know, some of those long boards, trying to put them up on the ceiling or cut them. You know, I didn't have an outfeed table for a saw so I needed somebody to help me hold the boards up while I cut them. So, it was really kind of tough and we didn't work on it for like a month or two on our first one in the middle of winter just because it was so cold and the motivation was very low. Yeah, and you start... the end of it, I mean, towards the end of your first build can kind of be... I don't know, hard. I mean, you can kind of struggle just knowing how long it's taking you. Host: I definitely don't think people can underestimate the... I guess determination. I can't think of the word but resilience, I guess, in terms of, you know, the mindset of building it, kind of getting demotivated, realizing it's not necessarily the van for you but then, you know, continuing and being resilient and getting another one and doing it the way you want it. Guest: Yeah, it's... it was tough. Our second one's gone faster. We bought it in October. I don't... I didn't do the math off the top of my head but we're planning to have it done within the next, uh, nine weeks is the plan. Um, we're almost done. I mean, we're... we're on track to finish it. We got, you know, just a little bit stuff we got to make cabinets and, um, just, you know, little stuff add trim and and that kind of stuff. Host: But like I said you've already taken a few trips in it so it's drivable it's livable just kind of the finishing touches. We'll jump ahead a little bit. Um, what has been the coolest travel experience you guys have had so far? It could be with your van or not with your van. Guest: So, one of the coolest places we've taken our van, I think the one we enjoyed most was going to South Dakota, which... or, I... we took a couple, so that... I think that was like the first trip that we took when our van was almost completely finished and we met up actually with some friends through Instagram, which kind of sounds a little creepy but they ended up being really good friends. And we actually got to stay, like, on our first, I guess, like, BLM land I guess you say. Actually, we were in a forest. We stayed on BLM land though, so we got to, you know, like, actually, yeah, we did. We got to actually experience that versus, you know, just staying, you know, in a campground or like on the side of a street or something. It was like the full like van life experience. We stayed right on the edge of the badlands, so they have Wall Wall, South Dakota, I think is what it's called where Wall Drug is. A lot of people know what that is. It's like a big General Store. It's really popular, really cool. I mean, there's not, to me, there's not a bunch in South Dakota but the Badlands is kind of the biggest, you know, and that and Mount Rushmore. So, we went up there and that was... that was about the coolest that we got the experience in that and we stayed right on the edge. They had some BLM land. We woke up to cows scratching our head on the back of the van, go... I was breaking in our van, it was rocking back and forth, we weren't sure what was going on but it was awesome. Yeah, it was... it was a neat experience. I mean, we just got to hang out and it just makes you feel like you're living life really freely, like. Host: That's something I wanted to wake up to, like, just seeing bison or cows or something like brushing up against the van. I would open up and look out and like they're not there yet but that's really cool. So, your van was like shaking cuz there was a cow brushing up against it? Guest: Yeah, the door hinges on the back, they kind of stick out on and it, they were doing it to like all like we were with, I don't know how many people were there but they were just going down the line like everybody there, I guess it was like a natural alarm, guess? Yeah, which it was wild. We were there for a couple nights and then we didn't see cows, we didn't even know there were cows there and all of a sudden, hundreds, and they were all around, we were surrounded by them. So, that's funny. Host: That's cool, that's a good experience, yeah. Alright guys, if you could have listened to this podcast when you were first starting out on your van life, your travel nurse journey, and there was a question that you wish I would have asked tonight that I didn't, what would that question be and how would you answer that now? Guest: Oh, that's a good one, the question. I don't know the answer to that one. Um, I think it... I think I would just be more interested in like, um, like budget, really. I mean, it's so... it's so hard because how much money do you need to have saved up for this? And, yeah, so like, really what people spend on gas, um, you know, that's a big one for me because it's so hard to know kind of what that is. Um, you know, how much you spend. And I know that's different for everyone but um, it's really tough to get like an understanding of what the budget will be like. Even now, we're not really sure what we're going to spend. We're planning to take four months off but we have really no idea what it's going to cost. We try to do some calculations on like how much we're going to drive and the gas prices in those areas and what it's going to be but really like, I think the budget is just the hardest part to know what it's like for somebody that's going to actually travel, not just sit in one place but like, really travels. Host: In terms of the budget, that's something that completely like blew our socks off was going cross country. We spent way more on fuel than we expected to. And one tip we learned, talking with Dylan in episode one, we actually have a blog post about this I'll link in the show notes, but you take your mileage and you add like a 50% buffer. So, you do your entire trip and add 50% to that because you'll be shocked at how much time and miles you spend driving back and forth, whether National Park Loops or, you know, back and forth of destinations. It was almost like for both of us 50% more than what that Google Maps itinerary told us. That was one good way and then of course, the price of gas varies. I think either way it's going to be more than you expect but if you can, you know, put as much of a buffer on that as you can. We actually had, uh, on episode 13 with, um, Lur and Jason, they were the only guest so far that paid that had money left over after the trip because they... they just anticipated out west to be super expensive, California and just really, really saved up for it and it ended up not being as much as they expected. But there are a few ways you can prepare but it is tough to nail down a price point in terms of budgeting for the van build. Did you have like a number, rough number on how much that cost to build out that you wanted to share? Guest: Yeah, so our first one, we bought our first van, um, it was a 136 ProMaster. It had about 60,000 miles on it and we bought that for $38,000 and we spent around $17,000 on the conversion. And I think that was more on the high side. We didn't really skimp on anything. I wanted, you know, nice materials. I wanted the cabinets to be made out of like, um, birch. Um, and so we probably spent more than I guess the average person. And then I think on the second one, we bought our van for $34,500. There was some kind of weird markups on there. I know that I said that it was marked down to like $33,000 but it was, it's kind of confusing, I guess you have to have like a trade-in and finance through them. It's, to me, it's like a dealership scam but we end up paying $34,500 for our van and I think we're going to have right around 20 grand in it and that's with an air conditioner, inverter, and two extra batteries. Yeah, we beefed up our electrical system a lot on this one so, you know, you may give or take a little bit. I would probably say anywhere from like 20 to 22. We haven't added it up yet but I think we're right in that range. Host: Nice, well thank you for sharing that. And then for someone who's listening to this podcast who wants to get into this kind of travel nursing, van life lifestyle but aren't quite there yet, what is one thing they can do today to get started? Guest: I mean really just cut out all the unnecessary stuff. Like that's the biggest way that we started saving for it was, you know, you can look at your expenses and cut out a lot. I mean, you... you list it all out, um, get rid of unnecessary subscriptions. I mean, heck, even like, um, your vehicle insurance, I mean a lot of people overpay for vehicle insurance and so, you know, you can go through many agencies and get free quotes. I mean, it doesn't do anything, you know, it's just literally a free quote, um, to see if you can save money on that and just really kind of skimping on everything. So, we cut down like our phone bills, we went to straight talk. I mean, it was far less. We just paid for our phones out of pocket. Um, we have less expenses there and just cut out everything we didn't need. What were you saying about the travel nursing part, just how to get into it? Host: I guess just a lifestyle and obviously with that you would need to, um, have the degree and everything else but I guess the first step probably be just pursuing it. Guest: Getting in touch with the travel agency or going through the application process. Otherwise, I would say, you know, just do it. I just don't even really think about it, don't overthink about it, just put in your application and get connected with somebody. Just do it. Yeah, it's... it's not a bad... I mean, Courtney was really nervous about getting into it, she wasn't really sure what to think, of course you like we mentioned earlier there's only one day of orientation, you know, she... whether she didn't know enough but and I'm really, I get really nervous, um, like with change so I was, "Oh my gosh, I don't know how I'm going to function like talking to people, like, questions," like, "I'm just going to have to get over that fear," you know, and just... and just do it. So, it's got much better. I still get a little nervous um, before my assignments start but um, it's even compared to the first one, it's gotten much better but it seems like with nursing a lot of it is like that, everybody's still learning all the time. I mean, like, yeah, there's... there's always going to be something that you can learn better with so it, for the most part, iht's from her experience and maybe I'm wrong here, you'll have to correct me, but it seems like they're all willing to help out and you know, help you with things that you might not know if it's something that you've never done before. There's usually somebody there that has, and just don't be scared, you know? Try it. If it's not for you, you know it's not permanent. Host: Yeah, at least you tried, and you got out of your comfort zone, which a lot of people don't do, so yeah, and you're enjoying it so far. And then yeah, like cutting expenses is never a bad place to start like you said there Dakota. Well, great. Have there been any YouTube channels, books, or other influences that inspired you guys to get on the road and travel? Guest: Yeah, um, you want me to talk about it or you want to? Okay, you can. Okay, so the second van build we were really inspired by Jimmy and Natalie. Um, I don't know if you know who they are. They have a YouTube channel, I think they have like 45,000 subscribers. Actually, copying their layout exactly because it just seems like it's simple enough, it's not overcomplicated. Yeah, yeah. So, we just thought the functionality worked for us. It had everything we needed. But as far as like first getting started with Van life, there was a lady named Liz Bryant. She has a YouTube, I don't think she really uploads to it anymore, called "Wild by the Mile". She was a solo, like the OG solo female vanlifer, and um, that was the first time I'd ever really seen anybody do van life and that was what really inspired me because it just seemed so awesome, you know? It's wake up by the beach every day and just kind of live life on your own terms and have your own freedom. So seeing that, seeing what she did, it was really inspiring to us. I mean, I think there's good and bad that come with it, but I think the good far outweighs any of the complications that, you know, you have in Van life. Host: Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing a second van build, right? Thank you guys. I'll put a link in the show notes for those two channels you mentioned there and while our audience is checking out those channels, one more time, where can they find out more about you? Guest: We have an Instagram, it's @kodaandcourt. And that's really all we have right at the moment. I mean, we have a YouTube channel, but we're a little camera shy, so just getting over the fear of hearing your own voice and you know, that. So, we might, you know, eventually do something with that, but right now we're just kind of not. We're not, we're not like keeping up with Instagram. We post stories and stuff, but I think we're going to post more when, you know, she's not working. So we're trying to work on being better about it. But yeah, any questions, you know, anybody can reach out. I'd love to help people whether it's, you know, car-related stuff, if somebody's having trouble with their vehicle or, you know, travel nursing, or build, you know, van build questions, you know, we're just, we love to answer questions and help people out. Host: Great, yeah, we'll put a link in the description for your channel as well and camera shy but we could definitely not tell and you guys rock this interview. There's a ton of valuable information here. We're excited to get out and share. Um, last question so our audience doesn't stay in suspense. What are we talking about for part two in travel tips? Guest: We're going to talk about Juniper Springs, I guess it's in the Okala National Forest, so in Florida. Host: Alright everybody, keep an eye out for that episode airing in 2 days. Dakota and Courtney, thanks again. Guest: Thank you.

18. The True Cost & Lack-Of-Routines of VAN LIFE

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 18, 2024 48:59

What a great conversation we had with Chad and Eileen Miles from “The Miles Van Life.” The couple have been traveling in their self-converted van for 18 months, along with their Australian Shepard, Sadie. They run several businesses and share the both the struggles and joys that van life brings them. Cost Did you know living in a van could actually be more expensive than a typically home? We take a deep dive into some of the expenses Chad and Eileen face while on the road. Routine Often, what's not thought about before someone makes this type of a commitment is how their routine will be affected. If you are currently working from home, you have probably set up a morning routine that allows you to get an early start and stay productive. We discussed that although you don't necessarily have to say “goodbye” to your routine, you have to be prepared for some changes. Setting up and taking down your office everyday takes time, and you may find yourself having to pump out your tanks midway through the day. Places to Stay We discussed how at first, finding places to stay was difficult and how they were frequently paying for campsites. Tune in to see how they have learned to not stress out so much over where they are staying, and how nowadays they mostly stay for free. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:00 What do you do for work? 06:00 What is a typical day or week look like? 08:00 How is your work routine affected by working out of a van? 11:30 How has Starlink worked for you? 14:15 How long did it take you to travel once you got the idea? 17:00 Was van life always the plan? 18:30 What was the van build process like? 23:30 What are your biggest travel frustrations? 27:15 What do you love most about your travel lifestyle? 29:15 What does a weekly or monthly budget look like? 32:00 How much does Starlink cost? 33:15 What is it like traveling with a dog? 34:45 Is van life sustainable and how long do you plan on continuing? 36:00 What has been your coolest travel experience? 37:30 What have you learned you need and don't need while traveling? 41:00 How do you find places to sleep? 43:30 What is an actionable step someone could start doing now? Chad and Eileen on Social: · Miles Van Life: https://www.instagram.com/themilesvanlife/ · Eileen's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eileenrosemiles/ · Eileen's Website: https://www.eileenrose.me/ · Eileen's Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-inward-journey/id1666397129 · Chad's IG: https://www.instagram.com/chadmmiles/ · Chad's Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2228949/share Links · Insight Timer Meditation: https://insighttimer.com/ · Kindle: https://amzn.to/49RxkAV · National Park Pet Policies: https://www.nps.gov/subjects/pets/visit.htm We may earn commission from products purchases on this page Sleeping · iOverlander: https://www.ioverlander.com/ · Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps Past Episode · Linneas Episode #9: https://atravelpath.com/solo-female-van-life/ YouTube Channels Referenced: · Living Big in a Tiny House: https://www.youtube.com/@livingbig · Chris and Sarah: https://www.youtube.com/@chrisandsara · Sarah and Alex James: https://www.youtube.com/@SaraandAlexJames · Mathers on the Map: https://www.youtube.com/@MathersOnTheMap · Linnea and Akela: https://www.youtube.com/@Linneaandakela Most Popular Blogs: · Most Popular Travel Hacks: https://atravelpath.com/money-saving-travel-tips/ · Travel Gear: https://atravelpath.com/travel-gear/ · How to Budget For Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/how-to-budget-for-gas-for-a-road-trip/ · Our Favorite RV Upgrades: https://atravelpath.com/rv-upgrades/ · How Much We Made Renting Our RV: https://atravelpath.com/renting-camper-van/ · Never Run Out of Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-tip/ *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision. Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/sky-toes/gently-comes-tomorrow License code: JNNG98EA42W634JP Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains Transcript Host: Chad and Eileen, welcome to the Travel Path Podcast. Guest: Hey, thanks for having us. Hi, so happy to be here. Host: Yeah, so we know you on Instagram as the MilesVanLife. You travel with your dog Sadie. You've been to 47 states, which is a heck of a lot more than Hope and I have been to. Got a few businesses between teaching meditation, marketing consulting, and hosting a podcast, which I know is no small feat. So, a lot to uncover here. Why don't we first just start by having you share a little about yourselves? Guest: Yeah, so we're Eileen and Chad. We have been living in our van on the road for about 18 months full-time. We completed our van about two years ago, and so we've spent about 18 months traveling, and now we've spent five months back here in Michigan. As you said, we have a 50-pound Australian Shepherd, her name is Sadie, and she lives in the van with us as we travel. And yeah, we're just very passionate about this lifestyle, so we're excited to dig into it more with both of you. Host: Currently, you're working as you have your own businesses, right? Marketing consulting and then teaching meditation. How did you get started in that? Guest: I started leading meditations when the pandemic hit, and before we hit the road, I got into teaching meditation on Insight Timer. And then from there, I did actually, before we hit the road, I did take on a part-time job because we needed some consistent income. And then it wasn't until about, actually, I was just looking at this, it wasn't until about September last year, I decided to, well, the year before that, I forget that it's a new year. It wasn't until about September 2022 when I decided to dive in fully and lead meditation from the road and lead meditation teacher trainings from the road too. And yeah, it's been super fulfilling and really hard at some points, but it's been really, really exciting and something that Chad and I work on together too. And for me, I do marketing consulting work. I had a full-time job leading a small marketing team at a financial firm in the Metro Detroit area before we were living in the van. And so part of the process of transitioning into van life was me leaving that job, going and starting my own business, and that's what I run today. Host: Very cool. So between the travel and the remote work, which came first? Did you have this dream and this desire to hit the road and then work towards finding remote jobs? Or were you stuck with remote jobs and realized you could travel? Guest: It was more so we had full-time jobs that required us to be in a certain location, and it was during the pandemic that it really opened up our eyes to the idea of remote work. When the pandemic hit, we went and we did some traveling, and we spent some time up in Northern Michigan, and we were working remotely for three or four months. And I think that's really when it got our gears turning, and we started thinking, could we make this more of a permanent lifestyle? So then that started our gears in the whole process of starting to make decisions and think about all right, well, both of our jobs required us to be in the office and were likely going to require us to go back into the office. And so we had to start thinking about how we were going to create work that was going to allow us to live this remote lifestyle. So we had to adapt and make some changes in order to make this a reality. Host: Nice. And Eileen, you had mentioned when you first started out, you had picked up a side job remotely to help fund your travels. How were you able to get that job? Guest: That was just something I looked for. I spent quite a few months kind of looking online and figuring out what felt in alignment. And they were open to me working remotely. And then it just didn't work out, unfortunately. And I also see it as a sign of, okay, you need to dive in fully and lead meditations and do what you really, really love. So it's all worked out. Host: Was that like a meditation-related job, or did you find it through Upwork doing like blogging, that type of stuff? Guest: No, it was a totally different job, just working for a mental health company, which I did love because I was able to work remote, of course. And then I was a part of a community and a team, which felt really good because I loved going to work. It was almost social for me too. And so then when the pandemic hit, it was hard. And even now, entrepreneurship is lonely, but I find ways to feel a part of a team. But yeah, it ended up working out. Host: That's great. So between the three businesses you have going on right now, right? So between those three hats you're wearing, what does your typical day-to-day or week look like? Guest: Yeah, I mean, I think a week like ours, although it can vary, a lot of times we have evening meetings that we have, or we will be leading a meditation in the evening. We also do a meditation teacher training. A lot of times, those are in the evening. So aside from those things, I would say we still work a relatively normal 9-to-5 type schedule with the clients that we work with and some of the different projects that we're on or meetings that we have are typically scheduled during the workday. So a lot of times, Monday to Friday, we are a little bit less mobile. We're camped out somewhere, whether that's by a city or if we're positioned somewhere and we've got our Starlink. We're not really moving as much during the week. We are, for the most part, working in a fairly typical schedule. And then the weekends are a time where we really go unplug and explore and take advantage of the fact that we don't have people maybe calling or emailing us. So it looks different in the van, of course. There's always unique elements to the work. There's always things that you don't necessarily plan for. And as we like to say, things tend to just kind of go slower or take longer than you think. But for the most part, our weeks resemble a typical workweek. Host: I feel like that's the big distinction between people who are van-lifing like vacationing for extended road trips versus people who are working full-time. Like when we did our trip a couple of years ago, it was a two-month vacation. We went, we saw, we were driving like 500 miles a day, going to different destinations. But now this next trip we're going to be taking is going to be much similar to what you guys were explaining, where we're going to be working probably in the same location for like six, seven days and just working all day and then making those smaller movements. You know, perfectly down south, it's freezing right now in Connecticut. But one question I wanted to ask was, and this is probably getting a little bit selfish because this is what we're going to be doing, but how much time would you say, if you're working remotely at home, a physical Sticks and Bricks house, versus working remotely in your van, but the van's stationary? How much time does it add to your day between setup and take down and all that? Guest: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say, but the one thing I would say for sure is that if you picture being in your home office and if you work remotely and for the most part, let's say between the hours of 8 to 5, you could be sitting at your office getting work done for a majority of that time pretty consistently, you might have small breaks, you might stop for lunch. I have found, we have found that it's when you're traveling full-time in the van, it's hard to get that same, I guess, productivity of work done on a consistent basis because there's constantly things that are going on throughout the day that might need your attention, or you've got to drive somewhere, you've got to move, or you've got to go dump your toilet or fill up on water. There's all these different things that you have to think about and plan for. So I would just say, in general, it is a little bit more challenging to have those long, sort of productive days when you're working in the van because there's just a lot more variables. Host: Yeah, so it sounds like that routine is something you're giving up. Guest: Yeah, for sure. Every day is different. And I mean, it is distracting when you're working and it's a beautiful view, and okay, I'm going to go do a workout and then cold plunge and then, oops, it's been a couple of hours, you know? But what's great too is that we can choose when we want to work as well unless we have meetings or calls or trainings to lead. But we can choose that, and then the evening can look like a hike or something. Or we can start our day earlier, and there's just that flexibility that's so, so great. Host: Yeah, I think it's important to just talk about that too because a lot of people might not realize that. But like right now, we've been working remotely in this house for a couple of months now, and we've developed this routine. And it's, you know, get up, get some work done, go to the gym. And then I'm in here, and I know you have the same routine. So that is something that people might not expect or anticipate if they're working from home now and they want to plan, you know, full-time travel and working in their van, something to definitely consider. Guest: Yeah, I mean, if you want to live a lifestyle like this where you are traveling full-time, if you live in a van, I don't think it's fair to say you have to completely say goodbye to routine. But you definitely have to become a lot more comfortable living without it because there are so many things that happen, there are so many changes that you're constantly having to navigate that you can bring a little bit of structure into your day, but it's difficult to maintain consistent routine. Host: Are you taking down and setting up your office every evening? Guest: Yeah, well, our layout, which we're sitting at right now, has our table and seating area, which we love, and then we convert it into our bed. And so we do that every day in order to enjoy our food here, unless we want to eat outside and everything. And then work at this table. Chad's really excited because he got a table up front with our swivel seat up there. But yeah, and then if we're in the middle of nowhere, we have to set up our Starlink. And so it's definitely a process. Host: Have you had luck with the Starlink? Guest: So far, the Starlink has been amazing. We went over a year without it, and, um, I mean, we did just fine. We had one of the little Verizon hotspots, so that was dependent on our cell phone service. When we knew we were going to go to Alaska, it was actually funny. I mean, we were up in the Seattle area and we were about to start the trip to Alaska, and we were panicking because we didn't have one. So, I ended up finding someone in Seattle and buying a used one online. Anyway, we could not have done the trip to Alaska and back without it, so we've really enjoyed having the Starlink. It just gives you the opportunity to go to much more remote areas, and so that's made us, uh, it's allowed us to go off-grid a lot more and stay away from some of the bigger cities like we used to have to hang around. So, it's been really nice. Host: Have you had luck with it, with Starlink in, like, National Forest areas? Guest: Well, you might answer this better, but I will. That brings me back to a really frustrating moment when we tried to use it for one of my virtual events and it just wasn't working because, yeah, we were in, yeah, it was a heavily wooded area and I think there was a couple I don't even remember exactly where we were. All I remember is it was very frustrating. Yeah, it wasn't working, but that was probably the one to two times where it didn't work. Otherwise, what would you say? It's definitely not perfect. Yeah, you've got to be set up in a good position. If you're in a heavily wooded area, you're going to have a lot of problems. Typically, you can get really fast internet, but you're probably going to have a lot of outages. And even as we've traveled with it, we have noticed, like, for video calls like this, um, it's pretty common that it's going to drop for a couple of seconds every, like, 5 to 10 minutes. So, it's not perfect for video calls, so you've got to kind of feel out how it works and in what situations it doesn't work as well. So, it's not perfect, but it does unlock a lot of unique opportunities that you couldn't have without it. Host: Yeah, yeah, we're kind of rolling the dice on this next trip. We're not going to get it quite yet. We're going to see because we've heard the consensus on the podcast so far has been the T-Mobile HotSpot, but we are planning on going a little bit more remotely and, I've been asking, I haven't gotten an answer. I think yours is the best answer so far about how it works in the National Forest because the national forests are where they're remote, they're usually free camping, but there's forest and that's when the Starling tends to not work when it's shaded although there are areas where it's a little bit more thin you can get away with it, but yeah, we're thinking of just starting with T-Mobile and then seeing if we need to invest in Starlink. I think it's more East Coast from what we've heard is better service where we're going to be and then out west is where you can really start losing your data in your service. Guest: For sure. Host: So, from, I guess backtracking a little bit from when you guys thought about taking this trip when it first became, when it first came to your minds and you wanted to take whether an 18-month or just start full-time travel until the day you were actually able to do it, how long was that time frame? Guest: I was kind of the first one who was interested in this whole van life thing, and that probably, that interest started like 5 years before we ever decided to actually hit the road. And it was one of those things where I followed some people on Instagram, I just thought it was really cool, I liked traveling, I had been on some road trips with my family and with some of my friends, and you know just kind of got the gears turning and made me think like I feel like this would be really fun. And then life happens, you know, we're young, we're graduating college, we're starting our careers, and so it just never really felt like there was a good time to pursue a lifestyle like this. And so then as we said when the pandemic happened we started working remotely, I think that really got us interested again in this lifestyle, and throughout the whole entire process it was probably, I would say 18 months to two years before we actually hit the road that we started to get really serious about it and eventually had to just essentially plant the flag in the calendar and say our goal was by January of 2022 we were going to hit the road and we missed that by a few months, we hit the road in April but it's one of those things where there's never a convenient time to uproot your entire life and go live in a van and travel full-time so I think eventually just came down to the point where we had to just pick a date and figure it out. Host: I think it's smart and it's there's power in setting a date to April 2022 we had the same thing we wanted to take this trip before my 30th birthday and there's definitely power in whether you're writing it down or just you make a deal and make this goal together it just makes you want to work towards it that much more. How about you Eileen, did you have that same vision for that long or did you take a little bit of convincing? Guest: I'm easily convinced, I mean, you know, as cheesy as it sounds I'm in love with Chad so wherever he goes I go. But I mean we started doing some traveling to tiny houses and we're like oh yeah we could do this we can live in a small space and it was super fun and my family growing up we didn't travel a ton and his did and so yeah I think he sparked within me something that was within me, the travel bug and I was easily convinced honestly. Host: Very cool. So over those 18 months, did you have any other means like were you thinking of doing a travel trailer, buying a different vehicle or was it always van life? Guest: Well, it actually started as, like, originally we were just kind of interested in the idea of living small and so at first we thought we were going to do a tiny house of some sort and maybe it was going to be more stationary and then we're like well but I think we actually want to have the mobility and we want to be able to travel and so then we started thinking about a tiny house maybe that was on a trailer. And as we went through the whole process there was a period in time where we were looking at buying an RV something that was a little bit bigger we just kind of kept going through the process and going to the process and factoring in all the costs that were involved with all those routes and all those options and eventually I think the both the cost and some of the flexibility in ability of the van is what ended up appealing to us most but yeah it went through a lot of iterations of what we thought this lifestyle might look like. Host: Yeah, yeah, sounds like a way a similar path we considered a few different things we looked at like those little small tab trailers, which I was not going to be able to fit in, and then yeah the van, the mobility that's kind of what sold us. We had a 20-year-old 30-foot Wildwood which we thought about briefly taking cross country which I'm glad we did not. I think I'm convinced van life for couples is just the best way to travel, it's mobile, it's really all the space you need and yeah we had a blast doing it. Guest: That's awesome. I agree, I think I'm glad we chose this van and chose to build it too we were looking at already built out ones and looking at RVs and it just didn't feel right I think we also were up for the challenge of building it out too. Host: Very cool. So, speaking of that, so over those 18 months, you obviously had a few challenges getting into and transitioning to Van life. What was the build process like? Guest: That was fun. I actually really liked it. I think he did a lot of it. I chose, you know, a lot of the paint colors and things like that and I learned how to use a drill and all of that. But I mean if there's one thing that any anyone listening needs to hear I feel like it's this, you don't have to be in construction or know what you're doing because I sure didn't when I started building the van. But I think it was a really difficult process but really rewarding. And now, kind of like I said a moment ago, you know, we're up for the challenge of building it and now looking around and feeling proud that we built it and we made it our own it's really rewarding, but I'm sure you have more to say on that. So, we bought our van as an empty cargo van in December of 2021 and it just kind of sat until January and it wasn't until January where we really got serious about our build. So, all in all, the build took us about four, four and a half months which I feel like compared to some other builds was pretty quick and it was because we were working on it almost full-time. I mean I would spend almost the entire day while it was bright out working on the van doing as much as I could and then I would go do some of my work for my clients in the evening or in the morning. And then, I mean Eileen was with me often so we put a lot of time into our build which I think allowed us to get it done a little bit maybe sooner than most but it was a very intensive roller coaster of an experience. Yeah, it was hard. Host: Yeah, I think that is the record, that's a record on the podcast. I know we've had between like 9 and 13 months I think it's been. We've had three van builds so far. Was so four and a half months was that what you expected how long it would take? Guest: That's a good question. I guess I think it was about what we had planned for or expected, you know, it's one of those things where you when you start a project like this you just have no idea what it's going to entail if you've never done something similar it's just so hard to imagine all of the pieces and components that go into building a van and all of the unique challenges. So, I think in our minds we were thinking we could probably complete it in less than six months and that was the timeline that we had set and so it also towards the end especially became one of those things where we just started putting more time toward it to try to hit the timeline that we had established it was a lot of work. Host: So, about four and a half months working basically full-time on it, were there any mistakes you made along the way that could potentially save a listener from some future troubles? Guest: That's a good question. You know what I would actually say, which is probably not even what you're looking for, is it's okay if your van's not done, you can still go. Like, I think that's actually, in a roundabout way, like a mistake a lot of people do make is they really want it to be perfect and done before they leave, but I'm looking, we still have a little bit of reflection on our door and it's fine and it hasn't ruined our experience, you know? And your van is still... you're able to sleep in it and go see the world. So, um, but I don't know, can you actually think of one? I wish I had something more specific or tactical of, you know, make sure you don't do this. I think Eileen would often give me a hard time because there'd be many days where she would come and I'd be out in the van and I would just be sitting staring at something, and then she'd come back out about two hours later and I would still just be sitting and staring at the same thing. It's true. So, I do think there's taking the time to plan and to think about your layout in general and to think about the systems and the subcomponents, and I spent a lot of time designing things on paper before I actually started building. I think all of that planning and a lot of the strategy work of how the whole thing was going to work, I think that probably lent a hand in allowing us to build more efficiently. All that time spent just kind of sitting and staring at things made it so that there really weren't any major mistakes that we made that really slowed us down. And so I think that was probably a big factor into the timeline that we achieved. Host: Yeah, no, it sounds like just taking the time to prepare, you've avoided some of those mistakes you might have fallen into. And to your point, Eileen, you guys... it wasn't quite finished, but you guys have been able to, you know, here you are 47 States later versus somebody who was waiting until it was complete and ready to go, they're probably still working on it, right? Guest: Yeah, there you go. Host: Um, I guess fast forwarding a little bit to your current travel lifestyle, what are some of the big frustrations you currently face? Guest: It's hard, especially being two entrepreneurs, it's hard to coordinate our schedules, that's the number one thing for us because sometimes we're in trainings or on calls that need to be really quiet. Um, and coordinating that can be difficult. So, um, I would say that's the number one frustration. I think the other sort of consistent frustration, and it's the thing that took us time to adjust to, and I don't know if you ever fully adjust to it, but when you live in a van like this, you have to get used to the fact that everything that used to be infinite becomes finite. So you have finite amounts of power, you have finite amounts of water, you have finite amounts of internet, all these different things that you never used to have to think about, now you have to think about every single day, multiple times a day. So wait, can I share my favorite stat? My favorite stat is that the average American uses, I think it's 133 gallons of water a day, I think 33 a day, and we only... how many gallons? I already forgot, we have a 30-gallon water intake to use for four days at least, you know? So, yeah, to your point, that's one... my favorite stats to tell my friends, and they're like, "What?" Host: So precious water. One tip we learned, we actually put... I'm not sure, do you have a shower in yours? Guest: We do. Host: We had the shower kitchen, but one thing we did is we put in a 5-gallon water jug with a pump on it so that we just, that's what we consumed. So, we never consumed any water from like our sink, so we basically had an extra 5 gallons, which again, you're using 133 gallons a day, but yeah, how long were you guys going between when you had to refill and pump out? Guest: Typically, we would need to refill our water every four to five days. There's a lot of factors involved in that, but I would say with our sort of normal usage, a lot of eating in the van, a lot of doing dishes, we do drink water out of it, we have a water filter for drinking water, and then showering, we're typically not showering every day, we're certainly not taking long showers when we do, but usually we can get through probably about four to five days at a time. Host: Yeah, they are lightning-fast showers. Yeah, you guys... we would typically... we have a 27-gallon freshwater, I think 14-gallon black and gray, and we would go between like 2 and 4 days before we had to refill, so depending on how conservative we're being with our resources. So just to note, you're not in a camper that has, you know, 50 or 100-gallon tanks, you're... it's really limited. Guest: And sometimes you have to plan for the situation, you know? If you know you're going to be going sort of off-grid for a week, then you've got to plan accordingly. And then you've got to plan and think about all of your meals or maybe you're not showering as much, and so these are just all the things that are part of the lifestyle that you have to be aware of on a consistent basis. Maybe have to shower in the lakes, which we do a lot. Yeah, which is actually nice. Host: It is freeing. Guest: And I want people to know that we do shower, just maybe not as often, or we do use, you know, wipes or something to help freshen us up, and we do wash our face. Host: You are clean people. Yeah, and this time of year, those, uh, baths in the lake, those are now cold plunges like you talked about earlier. Guest: They are, but yeah, it's refreshing, it's good for you. Host: Yeah. Now we talked about some of the frustrations. Now we'll transition a little bit. What is the one thing you love most about this travel lifestyle? Guest: The thing that comes to mind first for me is... is the freedom of it. So, uh, one of my favorite stories is we were traveling on the west coast, and we were in Malibu, California, and, um, we were planning on continuing to go up the west coast, and we looked at the weather. It was... it was a Friday, it was about 10 a.m., and it was pouring rain. We looked at the weather, it was going to be in, like, the 40s and 50s for the next 10 days, it was rainy, and then we texted some of our friends who also live in a van, and they were in Phoenix, and they were by the pool, and it was 75 degrees. And so they were like, "Hey, why don't you come to Phoenix?" And so 10 a.m., we were in Malibu, and by like 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. that night, we were in Phoenix with our friends, sitting by the pool. So, that freedom, where you could really go anywhere that you want to go... there's always certain restrictions or limitations that might apply to what you can do and where you can go, but for the most part, you have the freedom to choose where you want to go and when you want to go there, and that's a really freeing feeling. I just love seeing the world, or the country, rather. Um, it's just the coolest thing, you know? What I miss the most when, you know, we're in Michigan right now, but what I miss the most about being out on the road is we wake up and you open the door and you go right outside, for the most part. So, I just love that, being immersed in nature and getting outside every day and having those beautiful views to look at while you do work or relax. Now, it's not always a beautiful view, I want that to be made clear as well, as sometimes it's a parking lot view, but, um, I just... that's my favorite part, is seeing the country with my favorite person and meeting people along the way. That has been really special too. Host: Yeah, the freedom, the beautiful places, and meeting all sorts of people, yeah. Um, we'll transition a little bit to some of the finances with life on the road. Can you break down what a monthly or weekly budget would look like? Guest: So, I think one of the misconceptions about living in the van is that sometimes we'll tell people like, "Oh yeah, we live in a van and we travel," and they'll say, "Oh my gosh, you must save so much money, that must be such a cheap lifestyle," and it's really not. I mean, we've been home for the last five months in Michigan, and our expenses as we've been home, we're still mostly living in the van, but we spend a lot less money than we do when we are traveling full-time. So, to give an idea of some of the big things, you know, we do have loans and insurance for our van and so on. On a monthly basis, that costs us like $750 a month. Our two biggest expenses when we're on the road are our gas and our food, and between the two of those, we can easily be spending $2,000 a month, especially on gas. We drive a lot, so um, $800 to $1,000 a month is pretty typical for us as we're on the road. And then we're both self-employed, so we have to pay for our own health insurance as well, um, which is expensive. That costs us between five and $600 a month. So, when you start to add some of those, you know, foundational things together, and that's before we get into some of the more discretionary spending, that's a typical month for us. And so, yeah, it just, people tend to think it's a very, very cheap lifestyle, and some people do, that could be the case, I guess, for us, that hasn't been our experience. Host: Yeah, no, yeah, you're right. And thank you for breaking it down so accurately, and it's a good point. I mean, when you're driving a lot like you guys are, you're spending a ton of money on fuel. But the alternative is if you're not driving a whole lot, you're probably staying in places longer. It doesn't necessarily balance out. I found it's more affordable to be a little more stationary. Um, but it all depends on how much you're driving, what state you're in, and yeah, there's a lot that goes into it. And groceries too, you're buying groceries more often because you have a smaller fridge, you're not buying in bulk. Um, and yeah, there's a lot to consider for sure. Are you guys typically looking for free spots to sleep for the night, or do you like the campgrounds? How are you finding spots? Guest: We started with using campgrounds in the beginning, just because we weren't as comfortable with stealth camping, and we also had, like, an electrical power situation that wasn't working out, so we wanted to plug in more often. But now, I don't know, I think that was like the first six months of our travel. Now, we 100% try to stay in BLM spots out west for sure, or, you know, we'll find different areas near apartment complexes or parking rides even, you know, we, yeah. So, I don't even remember the last time we stayed at a campground. Host: Nice, that's good. And as far as, so you're using the Starlink all day, and that's something you pay for per usage. So, how much is that costing you, being your sole internet source? Guest: The way that the Starlink works is that, first, you have to buy the actual piece of equipment itself. That is $600, it's a one-time fee. And then, if you want to have their Roam service, which allows you to get internet from anywhere, you're not tied to one location, it's $150 a month. So, it does come with unlimited speeds and unlimited data, that part of it is very nice. But that's what it costs, $150 a month for the ongoing service. The other nice thing about it is that you can stop and start your service as you'd like. So, since we've been home back in Michigan and our Starlink has been stowed away the whole time, we've been using our hotspot. We just paused our Starlink service, so we haven't had that fee on a monthly basis. And then, when we hit the road again in a couple of weeks, we'll start it back up. Host: Nice, cool. You travel with your dog Sadie. What would you say to somebody who says they cannot live this type of lifestyle because they have a dog? Guest: I would say that bringing your dog in a van with you is the most joyful thing in the world because I can tell she loves to see all the views as well. And I mean, yes, the beginning is a little bit difficult to get your dog, or I've seen people have cats too, um, to get them kind of adapted to the lifestyle. But it's doable and it's just, it... I don't know what our van life experience would be without Sadie. So, I think I would say, yeah, don't let that hold you back. Um, I believe that we're giving our pets the best life ever, um, and ourselves. And it's just so much sweeter with them. Host: Yeah, on your Instagram videos, it looks like she's having a blast everywhere you guys go. Guest: So, yeah, the only thing I will say is, number one, is that, um, National Parks do not allow pets for the most part. Host: That is mostly true. There are a few national parks that are more dog-friendly than others. I'll put a link in the show notes so you can check that out. Guest: So, that can be the part that's tricky. But if you want to stay outside of the national parks or go into the national parks and we've, you know, left Sadie at a Rover, which is someone who personally watches the dog, and she has a field day. She loves it there too. So then we can go into longer hikes in the national parks. You know, you can make it all work out. Host: Yeah, sure. Is this sort of thing sustainable? I know you said it costs you, if not the same, a little more living on the road. Is it sustainable, and how long do you plan on continuing van life for? Guest: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think you can make it sustainable. And I think you can look online and see many examples of people who also make it sustainable. We've made it work for 18 months. And our intention as of right now is to, when we hit the road, travel for another year full-time. We're planning on going back to Alaska again this summer. So, does that mean it's easy all the time? Absolutely not, especially when you run your own business. Does that mean that our income doesn't fluctuate sometimes, and sometimes we can relax about money, and sometimes it's a little bit tighter? We experience all of those things. So, you know, if you apply all of that into your definition of sustainable, you can definitely do it for a long period of time. And there's plenty of people who have lived in their van or something similar and traveled for a lot longer than we have. So, I definitely think it can be... You've got to get creative, takes a lot of problem-solving, but you can definitely do it. Host: Cool. A couple more questions before we wrap this thing up. What has been the coolest experience you have had while traveling? Guest: There was this moment where, um, or weekend rather, we met up with a couple van life friends that were from Michigan too, shout out to Dave and Ally, we love you. Um, that's what's so cool is you meet these van life people and you're like, "I already love you, you're awesome." Um, but we went out to dinner with them, and then the next day, we went rock climbing with them. They let us borrow their gear and guided us through one of my scariest things I've ever done. But that was just such a cool experience and memory, um, because, yeah, just shows you how quickly we can make these friendships and trust these people and have a really, really good time. Well, the other one that I think is just a cool moment that we treasure is a similar group of people. We were... We had met people at a couple of different events on the road, and we all got together out in some State Trust land out in Arizona, outside of the Phoenix area, and we spent a week together, camped out there, and just being with people. There were like five vans that were all circled around for the week, and during the day, everyone would get their work done, but you get to hang out with your friends at certain points, and then at night, we'd all cook meals together and sharing different things, then we'd have bonfires, and one time we had a someone had a projector, and we watched some sports and some TV on the side of the van and sat outside. So, you just... You have these really unique moments that I don't know, normal life just doesn't quite afford you in the same way. Host: Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's a community. And here we are talking to you guys. Has there been anything outside of internet that you've learned you can't live without, Starlink? Guest: Yeah, I say that just because, as I mentioned earlier, if you want to be able to travel to some of the more remote locations, if you want to stay off-grid longer, if you want to stay in BLM or National Forest Service, if you want to go up to places like Alaska, if you want to be in the more remote places away from the city, I do think it has made that a lot easier and it just made it possible for us to do that. That wasn't really a part of our lifestyle before we got it. So, that is something that I've definitely enjoyed. I would say my Kindle, if you like to read, definitely have a Kindle because there's only so many places you can stuff your books in a van. So, that's been a lifesaver for me. Host: Yeah, the Kindle, that is a new answer. Starlink, we've heard a few times, but the Kindle, that's a good point. Yeah, because if you're an avid reader and you're in a van, there's not a lot of room. If you're in the middle of nowhere and you finish a book and you want a new one, you have to wait till you get to a city or you have to figure out how to get it to you. So, that's what's great is that you can pick up and read another one right away. Has there been anything you've learned that you don't need while traveling? Guest: I would say a full wardrobe. I'll shout out to another one of our great van life friends, Dedra and Garen. We went to Alaska with them, and Dee and I wore the same crew neck, Denali yellow hoodie or crew neck together, like, probably five or six days straight. You know, it's just... You don't need all these different options. And less is really more. And when you're out traveling, seeing the country and seeing beautiful things, it doesn't really matter what you look like. And re-wearing stuff as long as it's not filthy is totally fine. So, I would say you don't need a full wardrobe and tons of different shoes and all those things. Definitely get rid of stuff that you don't need and only take what you love. For me, I would say... I know it's not a super specific answer, but there's a lot of things that you don't need. I was... I was one of the people who, before we left, I wanted to have a plan for everything, for every random little thing that could happen or occur while we were on the road. I wanted to make sure that I had the right thing and I had a plan for it. And we traveled for like two or three months, and then we stopped back at home in Michigan, and we... We ended up just dumping so many things that we brought with us. And so, it's just a reminder that you can figure things out on the road, and if you need to go pick something up at the store, you can do that. If you need to make a plan for something or you need to solve some kind of problem, if you need to borrow tools from someone, you can find ways to solve any problem that you run into while you're on the road. And so, you don't have to plan for everything beforehand because you can never predict what's going to happen once you hit the road. Host: Yeah, no, good points. If you could have listened to this podcast when you were first starting out, what is one question I didn't ask tonight that you wished I would have, and how would you answer that now? Guest: I think for me, the biggest question that I had when we were thinking about living in the van was so unsure about what sleeping would look like, where we would sleep, and how we would find sleeping spots. So, I guess maybe the question would be, how do you go about finding places to sleep? So, to give a couple of thoughts on that, you know, the first thing that I would say is whenever you're going to a new area, I would suggest doing a little bit of research and having a general idea of what options might look like for you to stay. For example, if you're heading into an area like... I'm gonna use Sedona, Arizona, because we're going to be heading there once we hit the road, learning a little bit about, okay, it's difficult to stay in Sedona, Arizona, so when you get there, you're probably going to have to plan for the fact that you're going to have to stay 30 to 40 minutes outside of there. That's an example of just being familiar with some of the restrictions that might exist. And so, then you need to plan for that. Whatever you're doing that day, you need to allow time to go drive away and find somewhere else to sleep. So, that's kind of step one. And then using apps like iOverlander have been huge for us. They give you some good ideas of places that you could stay, very specific locations that might work. And so, I would recommend going and checking out apps like iOverlander. And then the last thing is, some of this is you kind of learn it through experience, but we've started doing a lot of stealth camping. Essentially, camping within cities and just trying to blend in with other cars at night. And, you know, you can develop a little bit of comfort with when you get to an area, feeling out what the situation might be like, do you feel comfortable there? I tend to go on Google Maps a lot, and I'll look at the satellite view overhead and I'll look for apartment complexes or streets that seem to have a lot of overnight parking. And then, we'll just go try to blend in. And if you're going to go that route, arrive late, leave early, and stay very low profile. But I think that was one of the biggest mysteries for me before getting in the van, was where the heck are we going to sleep? And maybe that's helpful. Yeah, I was definitely anxious about that too, and I felt like I would start the day already worrying about where are we going to sleep at night, right? But you really figure out where we're going to go every night, which is helpful. Host: Yeah, those are both great answers, and I think we share your frustration or the troubles we had in Sedona with trying to find a place. We looked a long time for a place to sleep there. It's a good tip you bring up about pulling up Google Maps in the satellite and just looking where there is overnight parking, big parking lots, just finding out where that is and hunkering down there. In most cases, the worst thing that will happen is you'll get a knock and you have to leave. But when you don't have any other options, it's something. Yeah, for someone listening to this podcast right now who wants to set up a lifestyle similar to yours but isn't quite there yet, what would be one thing they could start doing today? Guest: I think get clear on what is important to you and what would excite you the most. Do you want to live in a van or an RV, or do you want to travel in Airbnbs? Or, if you had a van, what would be important to you as well? So, I think just getting clear on that. And I mean, we did a lot of journaling before, too, and just kind of writing down, "Okay, what would be the top three most important things in the van for you?" And really discussing that. So, that's what I would say. And then, go try to experience things in some way. You don't have to buy a van or build a van in order to go try. Maybe traveling in a van, like Eileen said, we started going and traveling and staying in tiny houses just to get a feel for what that experience would be like. Are we okay existing in this smaller space? So, I think you can do some of that planning. If this is something that you're thinking about, and then ultimately, I think you just have to make a commitment and say, "We are going to commit to this lifestyle and pick a date, plan for it, and say, 'You know what? This is when we commit to living this lifestyle by.'" And you'll be amazed that if you do that, you'll be amazed at how you can solve problems and how you can figure out how to get to that point because you can figure out a lot of things. I was just going to say, too, we also set a date to have a little van life going-away party. So, when you have over a hundred people that are showing up to this event to give you hugs and see you later, that's also a really great motivator too because one of my favorite things Chad has said and really helped us start this whole journey is that going for your dreams or going after your dreams and creating the reality of your dreams is inconvenient. There really is never going to be a perfect time. So, just committing to a date, going for it, yeah, it's the best route. Host: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, there is no better time than right now. And when you have that party and a hundred people showing up, that's a lot of pressure to make sure you get going. Otherwise, it's anticlimactic if they all celebrate and you aren't leaving. Guest: Yeah, totally. Host: Have there been any other... I know you mentioned one previously, any other YouTube channels or books or other influences that helped motivate you and inspire you to travel? Guest: Yeah, you know, I also, during this conversation, I totally forgot about our guy. We have a couple that we're going to share, but who's that Australian guy that we used to watch all the time? Oh, Bryce on Living Big in a Tiny House. He's great. We watched those a ton. He just would interview people, and there'd be tours of their tiny houses. So, that was really inspiring and exciting. And then Chris and Sarah, they are on Instagram and YouTube, and they really showcased what living in a van would be like. We loved watching their YouTube channel. And then Sarah and Alex James, they are the ones that we purchased the van life build guide off of, and so they were really, really helpful as well. Yeah, and then once we started our build, Mathers on the Map was a channel that we watched a lot of, and so they helped us a lot of the build process. And then, I know you had her on the podcast, but Linea and Akela, that was a channel that I spent a lot of time... I remember specifically on some of the wiring and some of the electrical components, I watched a few of her videos and found her to be really helpful during the build process. Host: Nice, yeah. She has a great channel, and she talked a lot about, like you said, not only all the benefits and all, like, kind of the sunshine and rainbow, she went deep into kind of the downsides and everything that's involved with building in van life. So, yeah, she has a great channel. Check out. We'll link all those channels you mentioned in the show notes below. And one more time, guys, while my audience is checking those out, where can they find out more about you? Host: We are @TheMilesVanLife on Instagram. And then my personal Instagram is @EileenRoseMiles. That's where you can find my meditation podcast called The Inward Journey. And then I'm on Instagram as well. I am @ChadMMiles. And my podcast is called A Level Deeper. Host: All right, perfect. We'll link everything below. Chad and Eileen, thanks again. Guest: Thanks for having us. Host: Thanks, friends.

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Episode 23, Examining the Cost and Morality of Vouchers for All

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 27, 2023

Of all the education legislation passed this session, HB 1, the Universal Voucher bill, is likely to have the greatest long-term impact. In this episode of Educating from the Heart, we are joined by Norin Dollard, PhD, of the Florida Policy Institute and Rev. Dr. Russel Meyer, Executive Director of the Florida Council of Churches. Together, we discuss both the financial and the moral implications of Florida becoming the latest state to offer universal vouchers. Episode 23 Show Notes: Guests Show Resources Transcript Guests Norín Dollard, PhD, Florida Policy Institute, Senior Policy Analyst Rev. Dr. Russell Meyer, Executive Director Florida Council of Churches Resources Educating from the Heart Episode 7: Vouchers for All, Buyer Beware--In this episode you'll hear why some Florida parents regret pulling their child out of public schools for a chance to grab a private school voucher. Universal Vouchers in the News Florida Won't Tell you What's Wrong at its Voucher Schools -- Unless we Pay $10,413 (April 26, 2023) Arkansas Becomes Fifth State with Universal Education Opportunity. Which State Will be Next? (March 8, 2023): Arizona: Half of Arizona Empowerment Scholarship Account students left public schools, latest data show (Feb 13, 2023) What Sweden's Teacher Shortage Says About Privatizing Education. (Dec. 19, 2022) Sweden: Is Sweden proof that school choice doesn't improve education? (Feb 28, 2018) Billionaires v Teachers: the Koch Brothers' plan to starve public education (Sept. 07, 2018) Milton Friedman on Vouchers (2003) Transcript Andrew Spar, FEA President: Hi, this is FEA President Andrew Spar. To stay on top of all the latest news and issues impacting our public schools, be sure to follow FEA on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For more information on this podcast, visit www.feaweb.org/podcast. Announcer: Sharon: You're listening to Educating from the Heart. Thank you for joining our lively conversations with teachers, support professionals, parents, and students as they share issues that matter most in our public schools. Here are your hosts, Tina Dunbar and Luke Flint. Tina, Host: Welcome back to another episode of Educating from the Heart. I'd like to open up with a quote from Mark Twain. No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session. I don't know if you've noticed it in the news, but Florida lawmakers have been busy at the state capitol because the legislative session is in full swing and public education has taken center stage. We are moving into the second half of session and look, I bet the majority of the proposals under consideration are related to education. I don't know if you've seen the press or heard people talking about that massive Ed bill that state leaders are calling transformational. So, in this episode we're talking about Education Savings Accounts or ESAs. State leaders have renamed them now calling them Empowerment Savings Accounts available to all Florida K through 12 students eligible to attend public schools. But some parents are now asking, where is the promise of education freedom for their child? Luke, Host: You know, Tina, if it walks like a voucher and talks like a voucher and quacks like a voucher, it's a voucher. I don't care what the state of Florida calls it. Here's the thing. Every child in the state of Florida deserves to have an education that challenges them to grow and learn beyond their wildest dreams. Right now, 70% of children are already eligible for vouchers, and they reject them because they know the best place to live their dream is in Florida's public schools. What this bill does is it gives an $8,000 coupon to the folk who are already sending their children to the elite private schools where tuition is $25-$30,000 a year. So, taxpayers will now be funding for Tiger Woods children, and Donald Trump's children and all the other children...

How to Franchise Your Business and Expand Globally: Lessons from POPBAR's CEO

Gathering The Kings

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 20, 2023 45:46

In episode 176 of Gathering The Kings podcast, host Chaz Wolfe talks with Reuben Benjehuda, founder and CEO of POPBAR - a chain in the quick frozen dessert industry. Reuben shares insights on the importance of making quality ingredients the #1 focus, putting your own unique spin on what you offer to set yourself apart from the market, and staying focused on adding real value to your business. Reuben also talks about the challenges of franchising and negotiating in business, and the importance of playing both defense and forward as an entrepreneur. Listeners will learn about Reuben's journey from not knowing how to make gelato to founding POPBAR, and the importance of staying humble in the face of success. Tune in to this episode to gain valuable insights into the food business, franchising, and entrepreneurship. Check out Reuben's LinkedIn profile and POPBAR's website for more information.During this episode, you will learn about;[02:12] Intro to Rueben and his businesses[03:32] Reuben's Why [10:54] Reuben's story of becoming an entrepreneur[14:27] Franchising your business, is a whole other business[19:06] The benefits of investing in your own raw materials[23:44] How to protect your time, and focus on value adding activities[30:27] Reuben's decision making process[32:41] Reuben's #1 KPI[34:59] Reuben's thoughts on networking[41:31] If Reuben could speak to his younger self, what would he say?[43:00] How to connect with Reuben[44:18] Info on Gathering The Kings Mastermind Notable Quotes“In the moment when you believe in something, be honest with yourself.” - Chaz Wolfe, Host“You can serve a quality product that is all natural and it doesn't have to be crazy expensive to make.” - Reuben Benjehuda“The word treat is very unique because people need to have lunch or dinner. A treat is a very different proposition because you choose to, you don't have to.” - Reuben Benjehuda“Especially for franchising, you have to create a concept that is replicable, that's the trick.” - Reuben Benjehuda“Every business decision is about negotiating, whether it's with yourself or with a supplier or with a franchisee, whether you know it or not.” - Reuben Benjehuda“You can learn anything, t's up to you and how much you put into it.” - Reuben Benjehuda“I always say there's times in the lifetime of a business owner where you are playing defense, and when you're playing forward.” - Reuben Benjehuda“What is value? Value is something that you feel inside as an entrepreneur.” - Reuben BenjehudaBooks and Resources Recommended:Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805The Millionaire Fastlane: Crack the Code to Wealth and Live Rich for a Lifetime by MJ DeMarco:https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Fastlane-Crack-Wealth-Lifetime/dp/0984358102Let's Connect!Reuben Bejehuda:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reuben-benjehuda-3a976717Website: www.pop-bar.comChaz Wolfe (Host): Website: www.gatheringthekings.comFacebook:

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Episode 22, Parent Power: Defending Children’s Freedom to Learn

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 31, 2023

A growing number of Florida parents are expressing their opposition and concerns over the increasing list of books that are being removed from Florida public school classroom and district libraries. They say it's another attack on education that could impede student success and push more educators out of the classroom. In this episode, you'll hear how these parents are mobilizing support and fighting back within their local communities. And you'll learn what you can do to become an education activist and join the movement to regain safe schools and the freedom for students to read, learn, and thrive. Episode 22 Show Notes: Guests Show Resources Transcript Guests Raegan Miller: Public School Advocate and Parent Activist email Raegan Follow Raegan on Twitter Read Raegan's column, Stand up for Our Public Schools, Don't be Distracted by Fake Outrage Jabari Hosey: Parent & President of Families for Safe Schools-Brevard County email Jabari Read Jabari's column, Gov. DeSantis talks of freedom while Florida's schools and children suffer Jen Cousins: Parent & Education Activist, Co-Founder of Florida Freedom to Read Project Watch Jen's testimony about academic censorship in Florida to the House Oversight and Reform Subcommittee on Civil Rights Watch Florida Mom is on a Mission to end Book Banning Resources PEN America report shows Florida has 2nd highest number of school-related book bans Florida Library Association (FLA) press statement in support of the freedom to read and the right to free speech. FL Freedom to Read Project on Youtube Public Voices for Public Schools Transcript Andrew Spar, FEA President: Hi, this is FEA President Andrew Spar. To stay on top of all the latest news and issues impacting our public schools. Be sure to follow FEA on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For more information on this podcast, visit www.feaweb.org/podcast. Announcer: Sharon: You're listening to Educating from the Heart. Thank you for joining our lively conversations with. Support professionals, parents, and students as they share issues that matter most in our public schools. Here are your hosts, Tina Dunbar and Luke Flynt. Luke, Host: Hello and welcome to another episode of Educating From the Heart. This is Luke. I'm here along with my co-host. And I'm just wondering, Tina, for your children, was there ever a time as a parent that you wish they had fewer books available to them in the classroom? Tina, Host: No. (laughter) Most parents recognize that reading is important to learning. In fact, most parents would make sure that they, their child has every book possible. Because one of the most important things about, uh, student development or, or learning is exposure. And exposing your children to as many things as possible and sitting down and talking with them about these. That's, that's how you help children mature and grow and develop. Luke, Host: So along those lines, as a parent, did you ever wish that the governor came in and told your child that he could not take an AP class? In whatever it is that he wanted to take. Tina, Host: No. No. Especially if it's an elective class. No, no. That's not right. How I, I don't under, as a parent, I do not understand how an elected official can dictate what my child can take and not take what, what courses? I don't understand what he's attempting to accomplish here. He, he is stifling education in Florida. Basically, he is hurting children's future by doing this, and, uh, I, I'm not really sure why this is happening. We know that there are thousands and thousands of students throughout the state that don't have books to read in their classrooms. Now teachers are being told to remove books out of their classrooms. That's crazy. Who has ever heard of a classroom without books in it and resources to help students? Luke, Host: You know, I don't fully understand it either,

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Episode 21: Learning Political Activism Starts Here

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 17, 2022

Megan Betche has been teaching since 2004. Much has changed during that time; she notes that it is now harder than ever before to strike a work-life balance. The need to see a positive change led Betche to step outside her comfort zone and run for political office. In this episode of Educating from the Heart, we talk with Betche about her successes, her challenges, and her view of what public service should be about. Episode 21 Show Notes: Guests Show Resources Transcript Guest Megan Betche, Seminole County ESE teacher Resources See Educators Run Candidate Training, NEA Hundreds of Teachers Ran for Office, Education Week Megan Betche Candidate Profile, Orlando Sentinel Seminole Soil and Water Conservation District Transcript Andrew Spar, FEA President: Hi, this is FEA president Andrew Spar. To stay on top of all the latest news and issues impacting our public schools, be sure to follow FEA on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For more information on this podcast, visit feaweb.org/podcast Sharon Nesvig: You're listening to Educating from the Heart. Thank you for joining our lively conversations with teachers, support professionals, parents, and students, as they share issues that matter most in our public schools. Here are your hosts, Tina Dunbar and Luke Flynt. Tina Dunbar, Host: Welcome back to another edition of Educating from the Heart. Thanks for listening. Luke, I have a puzzling question, which I believe you'd be able to provide some clarity. We've recently completed local, state and congressional elections, where we asked educators to identify and select candidates who support students and public education. We urged them to talk with their family and friends to choose the best candidates for their schools for teachers and for support staff, and to talk with those who have some knowledge of the ongoing issues and concerns that educators face. Well, to my surprise, I received pushback from some who stated that school employees should not be actively involved in politics. Well, Luke, that doesn't make sense, especially when you consider every decision made in public education begins with an elected official. I just don't get it. Everyone employed in public service, especially education need to be engaged in the political process to actively advocate for themselves, for their profession and their livelihood. Luke Flynt, Host: You know, Tina, when I started my teaching career, I didn't see myself as a very political person, but what happened is I realized that the over-testing that my students were facing was a policy choice, that my low pay was a policy choice, that Florida being last in the nation and student funding is a policy choice. And when we look at today's current environment, from book banning to the attacks on LGBTQ students and staff, those are policy decisions. And whenever there is a policy decision that negatively impacts you, you really have three choices: number one, continue to support the people who are making those policy choices. And for me, that was untenable. Number two, just go in the classroom and teach, and this is what a lot of teachers like to do, and ignore the policy choices. But that was untenable too, because it matters to me more than just what happens in my classroom, in a state where all children can thrive, we really have to make choice number three, which is to actively, consistently, year-round, oppose any policy that hurts children and lift up policies that support every child in Florida. Tina: Yeah, that's it. It's those decisions and policy choices directed by politicians that have left many teachers and support staff feeling ignored, undervalued, and unsupported. Many of our past guests have mentioned this as a major concern for all educators. You know, teachers enjoy working with their students. They look forward to it daily, but navigating the classroom has become a real challenge for them and wrestling the...

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A Closer Look at the Fed Rate Hike with Economist Ken McGill

Decisive Point – the USAWC Press Podcast Companion Series

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 28, 2022 13:05

Ken McGill with Rockport Analytics and chief economist for the ACEC Research Institute joined the podcast to discuss the Fed's 75 basis-point interest rate hike and what it means for the economy and the engineering sector. Host: Hi there, and welcome to the engineering influence podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. I'm Allison Schneider, ACEC's Director of Media Relations, and I'm joined today by Ken McGill of Rockport Analytics to discuss today's announcement that the Fed will once again raise interest rates. Ken also serves as chief economist for the ACEC Research Institute, which provides original research and analysis on topics vital to the business of engineering. Ken, thanks for being here. Ken McGill: Thank you, Allison. Host: Now let's jump right into it. Today, The Fed announced an interest rate hike of three-quarters of a percentage point. That's the same as they did in June. Now, this is the fourth rate increase in five months. Talk to us about what the Fed is seeing in the economy to take this action. Ken McGill: Well, clearly they're focusing on fighting inflation and, I think the CPI reading of 9.1% last month certainly was worrisome for all of us, but the Fed paid very close attention to that. And, that was at least part of the reason for a 75 basis point increase in the fed funds rate. Having said that, they're also aware that the economy — some of the real measures of the economy — are beginning to slow spending and even employment to some extent and some of the high-frequency measures of inflation are actually beginning to fall off of their peaks. So I think that was the reason that many of the analysts that thought we were going to a 100 basis point increase turned out to be incorrect. Host: This is of course going to make borrowing money more expensive. How do you see this announcement affecting our members? Ken McGill: Yes, absolutely. The increase in borrowing costs is going to hurt many sectors of the economy, construction and housing being one of the more dominant ones and one of the ones that get hit very quickly of course. When we talk about rising borrowing costs, you can think about the housing side that that's certainly going to cut into demand because affordability for mortgage rates alone becomes lower. First-time buyers certainly have more trouble coming into the market. Ken McGill: Particularly in the face of the increases in home prices that we've seen. On the other hand, when you think about non-res construction borrowing costs, there are also significant and there are knock-on effects that affect the pricing of materials and labor, as well as, you know, elevated in interest rates begin to permeate through the economy. Ken McGill: So, yeah, it's, it's not a good thing for construction. The question really is, um, things will begin to turn negative. Some of the indicators already have, as we all know, it's a question of just really how fast and how far things will fall off. Now for our members, as many of them know, A/E services tends to lead construction activity, and my guess would be that some of the construction indicators that are already beginning to weaken which suggest that they're already seeing in some of their bookings some weakness as well. They'll also lead us into the recovery that we will see as soon as inflation begins to fall off into and get closer to the Fed's target range of 2%. Host: You mentioned that target range. The fed has the dual mandate of maximum employment and stable prices. We know the labor market is going strong, but inflation data showed prices soared to 9.1% in June. It seems like with this action, the Fed's trying to walk a tight rope to slow inflation without increasing unemployment. Can you talk about that a little bit? Ken McGill: Absolutely. Their dual mandate — and it is a tight rope. When you think about the fact that those two things can actually be inversely related. Said differently, you know, fighting inflation with either increasing interest rates or going through quantitative tightening, which they're also doing right now, that slows economic activity. That's the point of raising those rates and the finesse part of it on the part of Chairman Powell and the rest of the Fed governors is just how quickly to attack inflation with rising rates or quantitative tightening such that the damage to the real side of the economy, employment and spending in particular is as small or as inconsequential as possible. It's a tight rope. And that's why analysts are constantly arguing about the difference between a rate increase of 50 basis points versus 75 versus a hundred. Those numbers sound fairly small, but they have huge implications for the real side of the economy. Host: With the way things are headed, there's been talk of a recession. Nouriel Roubini, the economist who predicted the 2008 crash, said "The idea that this is going to be short and shallow is totally delusional." His warnings go against, we should say, other predictions on Wall Street for a mild recession, including those from Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. The Biden administration is reluctant to say a recession is on the way. What are your thoughts there? Ken McGill: I tend to lean towards the consensus that sees frankly, a recession coming, probably early in 2023 will be the start. But I also agree that it should be mild. And part of that, that logic is really taking a look at the real side of the economy right now. Employment, as you noted, is, has been very strong and should continue to be that way in particular, particularly because we've seen strength in manufacturing. But we're also seeing a lot of strength in service employment, be it leisure and hospitality or professional and business services. That's where the job strength has been these last 6, 8, 9 months. And that bodes well for consumer spending and confidence moving forward. So when you take a look at that, it's hard to imagine that consumption will fall off the edge of a cliff. It's hard to imagine that business investment — which lags that and follows it in the economic cycle — that it will completely dry up. Ken McGill: We've seen, inflation indicators, as I mentioned before, already beginning to suggest that we've seen a peak and things are starting to cool down. That will raise well, that will slow any losses in real income that consumers are seeing by the fact that if inflation is sort of eating away at their paycheck. Wages are still rising at a rate slower than, let's say ,the beginning of this year, but they're still rising. And if the Fed is successful in pushing, beginning to push inflation down, real wages will turn positive as well. And that bodes well for spending in the future. So I'd look at the real side of the economy and it's just, it looks strong enough to weather these fed actions. And if it does get pushed into a recession, it will be a mild one. Host: You talked about weathering these Fed actions. There's been talk that they will continue to raise interest rates through the end of the year. Do you have any preview on what we should be looking for or what we might expect? Ken McGill: Well, you know, we all tend to watch the same indicators that the Fed governors do. And, those indicators are suggesting, as I said, a slow down a cool off period, if you will. And in our minds, in our team anyway, we've looked at it and thought, "Okay, the fed will raise again in September and end November, frankly." And, but those, those increases will be slower. They'll be smaller. Maybe we'll see a Fed funds rate of maybe 4% by the end of the year. So, you know, whether they, they do a lot of that change from the two, two and a quarter, two and a half percent that we are now, to that 4% could happen, could be front loaded in other words. It's a function of watching those indicators and of course the monthly and weekly indicators of inflation. They'll probably stop in raising rates at the end of this year because the economy will have slowed enough and inflation will cooled enough to convince them that they should probably remain neutral for a while. If we do head down into a mild recession, maybe even more modest recession, they may actually start to loosen. Again, some analysts out there are calling for by the end of 2023, a hundred basis point decline in the Fed funds rate. So, you know, they're definitely watching inflation and watching the potential for a recession. And I think they'll adjust rate increases and eventually decreases accordingly. Host: Those are really great insights. Is there anything else you think our members should be aware of? Ken McGill: Well, I, I think I would strongly suggest that everyone keep an eye on the pandemic. In other words, there are non-economic risks out there to, to the outlook, both for inflation and for the potential for a recession. The pandemic is not over it's. You know, we're starting to see some of these variants take hold again. I think we still have these geopolitical challenges like the war Ukraine, and the fallout from that war — that could impact a lot of the thinking behind the Fed and the actual results that we see in economic growth and inflation. And finally, you know, watch those commodity prices. Everyone seems to watch oil prices or at least gasoline prices on a daily basis. We're already seeing them fall. I'm sure everyone's noticed that the price at the pump is down about 50 cents per gallon over the last, few months — actually a few weeks — and commodity prices are also starting to fall. That's good news for construction materials and supplies. It's also good news on the inflation front in general. So watch those non-economic factors that are out there, geopolitical risks and, and the pandemic itself. And then keep an eye on, on, commodity prices. I think they're a good indicator of, of where things are going for inflation in the near term. Host: Ken, thanks as always for your insights. There's a lot to watch here. So I have a feeling you'll be joining us again soon. This has been another installment of ACEC's engineering influence podcast. Thanks to our guest, Ken McGill of Rockport Analytics and chief economist for the ACEC research Institute. I'm Alison Schneider. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Jason Healey – “A Bizarre Pair: Counterinsurgency Lessons for Cyber Conflict”

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 26, 2022 14:33

Released 27 April 2022. The lessons of counterinsurgency have deeper implications for cyber conflict than previous research has identified. Two decades of experience in Iraq and Afghanistan provide insights into the cyber strategy of defending forward including treating major cybersecurity and technology companies as host-nation partners and focusing on winning the hearts and minds of global netizens. Click here to read the original article. Keywords: cyber conflict, counterinsurgency, Iraq, Afghanistan, cybersecurity Episode Transcript Stephanie Crider (Host) Welcome to Decisive Point, a US Army War College Press production featuring distinguished authors and contributors who get to the heart of the matter in national security affairs. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the podcast guests and are not necessarily those of the Department of the Army, US Army War College, or any other agency of the US government. Decisive Point welcomes Dr. Jason Healey, author of “A Bizarre Pair: Counterinsurgency Lessons for Cyber Conflict,” featured in the autumn 2020 issue of Parameters. Healey is a senior research scholar at Columbia University School for International and Public Affairs, specializing in cyber conflict, competition, and cooperation. This episode of Decisive Point reexamines Healey's article through the lens of Russia and Ukraine. The guests in speaking order on this episode are: (Guest 1: Jason “Jay” Healey) (Host) Welcome back to Decisive Point, Jason. Let's talk about your 2020 article “A Bizarre Pair: Counterinsurgency Lessons for Cyber Conflict.” That is a bizarre pair. Can you lay the groundwork for us, please? (Healey) Sure, absolutely. Cyber has long been realized, back to at least the early 90s, as an interesting method of irregular warfare. Some of the very first writing on this—people like John Arquilla and Dorothy Denning and Winn Schwartau—would write about how technology-dependent societies are going to be open to asymmetric attack because of these cyber vulnerabilities and cyber capabilities—especially the United States, which has historically had these oceans, and we didn't have to worry about direct attack—that adversaries could use cyber as irregular warfare to affect us. In fact, we could use cyber as irregular warfare against them. We could have advantages by being a high-tech power. And so that aspect had been relatively well written about. The effects of it were maybe exaggerated; we thought maybe cyber would have more impact then, in the 90s, than we do 20-odd years later. But the ideas were relatively well baked. What I was trying to do with this article is to flip that around—to say, we're 20-plus years into fighting irregular warfare ourselves, especially counterinsurgency and civil wars, so what can we take from those hard-won lessons? To think and apply them to fighting and winning in cyberspace. (Host) You laid out some pretty specific lessons. Can you walk us through those? What lessons can cyber take from counterinsurgency? (Healey) The lessons that I took—of saying, “Boy, what can we learn about how to win in cyberspace based on the lessons from irregular warfare”—really fit in three areas. The least interesting, I thought, was on deception: For both cyber and irregular warfare, the attackers are relying on deception to succeed. That was a parallel, but I wasn't quite sure what we take from that. The other two, I thought there were stronger recommendations. First is that cyber conflict really depends on the host nation. Now, the host nation in this case isn't an actual nation; it is the technology companies, the main cybersecurity companies that are out there. And they are creating and maintaining the terrain of cyberspace. I had helped set up the very first cyber command back in 1998. One of my friends from there went on to Verizon. And he said, “Jay,

"WILL PLUTO RELEASE THE KRACKEN?" IPR 2 /21 /22

Infinite Plane Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 22, 2022 186:56

"WILL PLUTO RELEASE THE KRACKEN?" IPR 2 /21 /22 Do you Expect Hell on Earth this Tuesday, the twenty-second day of the second month, the twenty-second year of the second millennium, as Pluto returns to the point where it was back in July of 1776? FROM THE DESK OF TIM OZMAN: "RELEASE THE KRAKEN" 2/22/2022 I'm expecting Hades on Earth this Tuesday, the twenty-second day of the second month, the twenty-second year of the second millennium, as Pluto returns to the point where it was back in July of 1776. Keep in mind today that Pluto is the same character or entity as Hades, and Hades created the Kraken. The word "Kraken" has been injected steadily into the mass consciousness since the lead-up to the 2020 United States presidential election, along with non-stop references to "crack", from the crack-addict Mike Lindell's attempt at overturning the election, to Hunter Biden's crack usage, up to Hologram-In-Chief-CGI Joe Biden's recent "crack pipe in every pocket" agenda. I suspect this "crack" is a rift in the United States, a cultural and political fault line that will break upon the release of the "Kraken", whatever that happens to be. This morning I saw someone burning on the ground outside the Family Dollar store. He was wrapped in blankets from the waist down and his hands were up, and charred looking, and the blankets were smoldering. The people from the nearby convenience store and a few motorists pulled around as the gas station attendant dumped water on him. The ambulance and fire trucks arrived to scoop him up. I left while the police were interviewing witnesses. I was almost more shocked the Family Dollar was even open today because I had just read about how hundreds of their stores were shut down after dead rats were found in a warehouse. Robert Bradford, a warehouse worker, was fired from the West Memphis distribution center after he shared footage last month of rats fighting on the warehouse floor. (I thought the Ho Hos tasted funny. Now wherever will people get their cheap energy drinks and stale Paydays?) Now I am hearing FOX News fearporning up the threat of impending "cyber" attacks. Cyberwar is an eminently fake-able, over-hyped threat. Whatever happens today, it should be fireworks----or at the least, a lighting of a fuse. The return of Pluto is easily the most significant astrological event since the Saturn and Jupiter Winter Solstice Conjunction, which marked The Great Reset's true starting point. Thanks for reading. Subscribe to the blog at https://timozman.blog/ Tim Ozman, IPR, Host (You can also hear Infinite Plane Radio on the "Conspiratainment Radio Network" along with other live shows and podcasts. Learn more at https://conspiratainment.live .) --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/infinite-plane-radio/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/infinite-plane-radio/support

united states earth fox news saturn hades pluto kraken hunter biden great reset mike lindell cyberwar west memphis family dollar ipr paydays kracken ho hos host you robert bradford

Episode 16: Assess the Test Part II

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 10, 2022 18:50

Our conversation about testing was so robust that we broke it into two parts. Did you miss the first part of "Assess the Test"? Listen to it here.The impact standardized testing has on students, educators and school communities extends long beyond test day.In Part II of Assess the Test, we move beyond talking about the tests themselves and discuss the overall accountability system.Join us for this exploration of how 20 years of "accountability" in Florida have drained the joy out of teaching and learning. Episode 16 Show Notes: Guests Show Resources Transcript GuestsAnthony Colucci, President Brevard Federation of TeachersVicki Kidwell, President Clay County Education Association Bethany Koch, High school English teacher from Clay CountyMatt Yount, Teacher from Brevard County ResourcesMore information on the legislation that will create the new testsBeyond the Bubble: Americans Want Change on High Stakes Assessments Moving Beyond the Failure of Test-Based AccountabilityFlorida Department of Education: Florida Assessment of Student Thinking (note: many of the promises made on this webpage about the new test are not included in the proposed legislation) TranscriptAndrew Spar, FEA President: Hi, this is FEA president Andrew Spar. To stay on top of all the latest news and issues impacting our public schools, be sure to follow FEA on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For more information on this podcast, visit FEAweb.org/podcast.Sharon Nesvig: You're listening to Educating from the Heart. Thank you for joining our lively conversations with support professionals, parents and students as they share issues that matter most in our public schools. Here are your hosts, Tina Dunbar and Luke Flynt.Luke Flynt, Host: Welcome to another episode of Educating from the Heart. I am Luke Flynt, along with my cohost, Tina Dunbar. And Tina, you know, schools are the place where a childhood happens, where students get to explore their creativity, learn to think critically and develop the skills they will need to succeed in life and in the workplace. Or at least that's what they should be.Tina Dunbar, Host: You're so right, Luke. And in our last episode, we chatted with four educators about Florida's transition away from the FSA to a new testing system. While many educators are excited about the shift, many also shared their concern that this might be more of the same, a new name without major changes to the test itself.In the second part of our conversation, we'll focus less on the tests themselves and more on the overall accountability system. Our educators even address how testing has transformed our schools from places of joy and creativity to a place filled with anxiety due to the intense focus on standardized assessments.You know, Luke, you are so right. Life is so much more than knowing the right answers to a series of multiple-choice questions.Luke: It absolutely is. There is so much about our students that cannot be measured but is still very important to know. Part two of Assessing the Test begins with Bethany Koch sharing her love for English and how it can enrich the lives of all students. But she also shares the reality that Florida's fixation on testing has had in her classroom, as well as the classroom of many of her colleagues, where the love for teaching and learning has been replaced with dread.Bethany Koch, HS English teacher: I think one of the most heartbreaking, and someone that loves English, right? Like I went into this because I love English. I love books. But one of the most heartbreaking consequences of the FSA is that it is effectively killing some of the things that students and teachers love about our subject. We've seen the loss of fiction and poetry. And now our new standards are a little bit better on that...

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Episode 14: Teaching Accurate History

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2022 23:37

While some politicians have tried to limit what students can learn when it comes to America's history, Rep. Geraldine Thompson (D-Orlando) has been advocating for a fuller teaching of Black history in Florida's schools for years. We sat down with her recently to discuss why this issue is so important to her and why students need to be taught Black history year-round, not just on special occasions like Dr. King's birthday or Black History Month. Episode 14 Show Notes: Guest Show Resources Transcript GuestRep. Geraldine Thompson (D-Orlando) Resources HB 51 Required Instruction in the History of the Holocaust and the History of African AmericansSome schools may not be teaching African American history or other courses required by law but there's no consequences (Florida Phoenix) Florida School District Curriculum Reports Show Gaps In Black History Education (2020) (WUFT) HB 233 Academic Freedom Survey Transcript[00:00:00]Andrew Spar, FEA President: Hi, this is FEA President Andrew Spar. To stay on top of all the latest news and issues impacting our public schools. Be sure to follow FEA on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For more information on this podcast, visit feaweb.org/podcast.[00:00:17]Sharon Nesvig, announcer: You're listening to Educating from the Heart. Thank you for joining our lively conversations with teachers, support professionals, parents and students, as they share issues that matter most in our public schools. Here are your hosts, Tina Dunbar and Luke Flynt.[00:00:43] Sen. James Hargett: One of the greatest privileges I've had as a state Senator in the state of Florida is to have a participated along with Representative Bradley in sponsoring the legislation to require the teaching of African-American history in the schools of Florida. I believe that it will help our young people in the state know their history. As I stated on the floor in the Senate, you can't know where you're going, unless you know where you're coming from. I also believe that you can't teach the history of America truly without teaching the history of African-Americans as a central part of it. And for that reason, I'm very proud to participate.[00:01:28] Tina Dunbar, Host: Those are the words of former state Senator James Hargett who sponsored the 1994 legislation requiring Florida schools to add African-American history to the curriculum. Welcome to Educating from the Heart I'm Tina Dunbar with my cohost Luke Flynt.So, Luke, we began the last episode with a history lesson. So let's start this one with a quick quiz. What do you think about that? Well, you know, you can't work in education without a few assessments here and there. What do you remember learning about African-American history in school? I grew up in another state. And when I think about it, most of my learning came from my family and from within my community. I don't remember learning a lot about African-American contributions to American history in school.I do remember learning a few names and a focus on Egypt and the pyramids. But there was no reference to the significance of Egypt being in the continent of Africa, which I see as a total disconnect because African-Americans have a significant past, and we continue to play an important role in shaping American history today. Wouldn't you agree?[00:02:48] Luke Flynt, Host: You know, Tina, there is so much that I appreciate about the great public education I received in Indian River County. And I am proud to be a member of the Vero Beach High School Class of 1998. When I look back at my schooling, there is no doubt that I received a sanitized, you know, maybe even a whitewashed version of history.You know, I was taught for instance, the myth that Rosa Parks was just a lone actor who one day got tired and didn't giv...

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S6E13 | Edelman's 2021 Trust Barometer: The past, present, and future of truth and trust within institutions

Principled

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 12, 2021 33:02

Abstract: “ 7-10 people fear the weaponization of misinformation, but what's changed in the last year or so is assumptions of who we think the weaponizers of fake news and misinformation largely are.” - Dr. David M. Bersoff Trust has been a leading concern throughout institutions, globally. So what are the overarching trends around trust? What actions can institutions take to gain back trust? How can you build and regain trust once it's been lost? In this week's episode of the Principled Podcast, we're sharing a past conversation we had with Dr. David M. Bersoff, Head of Global Thought Leadership Research at Edelman Data and Intelligence. David takes us through the findings from Edelman's Trust Barometer, an annual trust and credibility survey that looks at what it means for organizations to build trust with people. This topic aligns closely with LRN's recent Benchmark of Ethical Culture report, which measures trust and other dimensions of ethical culture. The report is available to explore. Check it out here. What you'll learn on this episode: [1:07] Why is a business found to be the most trusted institution globally? [3:51] What are some overarching trends on trust founded in the 2021 Trust Barometer Report? [14:59] How has COVID affected people's trust in societal institutions? [18:00] What can be done to reduce the trust chasm? What are some ways to get people together again on basic facts? [22:03] What are the differences between trusts between a country and region? Additional Resources: Report: LRN Benchmark of Ethical Culture Article: Yes, you can measure ethical culture Featured guest: Dr. David M. Bersoff, Ph.D. oversees Edelman's global Thought Leadership research including the annual Trust Barometer and Brand Trust studies. In this capacity, he is responsible for questionnaire development, leading all data analysis and insight gleaning activities, and developing new frameworks for understanding trust, credibility, and consumer-brand relationships. Prior to joining Edelman Intelligence, David spent 18 years as consumer insights and marketing strategy consultant at The Futures Company. In his last 5 years with the organization, he served as its Chief Insights Officer and was a member of its global board of directors. Prior to entering the consulting world, David spent 12 years engaged in social science research at various Ivy League institutions, including 4 years as an assistant professor of social psychology and research methodology at the University of Pennsylvania. Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Principled Podcast brought to you by LRN. The Principled Podcast brings together the collective wisdom on ethics, business and compliance, transformative stories of leadership and inspiring workplace culture. Listen in to discover valuable strategies from our community of business leaders and workplace change makers. Host: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of LRNs Principled Podcast. My name is Ben DiPietro. I'm the editor of LRNs E&C Pulse Newsletter. You can find that on our website lrn.com. Click the resources tab and click newsletter, please subscribe, we'd love to have you. With me today is Dr. David M. Bersoff. He's the Head of Global Thought Leadership Research at Edelman Data and Intelligence, and you would know them better as the people who put out the trust barometer for the last 20 years, and they have a new, a very interesting one out in 2021. And so we welcome David. And how are you, David? Thanks for taking time with us today. Dr. David M. Bersoff: Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Host: In 2021 Edelman found business to be the most trusted institution globally. Why is that? And have the other institutions faltered leaving business standing alone, or has business simply outpaced media, NGOs, and government and building trust among people? Dr. David M. Bersoff: All four institutions that you just mentioned actually are more trusted now than they were when we first started tracking trust among the general population back in 2012, but two things have conspired to put business in the number one position. The first is that it's actually experienced some good double digit growth in trust over the past 10 years or so, unlike media and NGOs, which have gone up but gone up relatively little and while the government has also gone up, which is surprising to some, started from the much lower position. So at the end of the day here, we find business is number one, and you can really understand what that looks like and why that is when you divide trust into its two constituent parts. So there is perceptions of ability or competence and there's perceptions of ethics or fairness. And what we see is that despite the fact that as I said, all the institutions have enjoyed some trust gains since 2012, government and media are generally seen as not terribly competent and not terribly ethical. NGOs are seen as ethical, but not terribly competent. Business is the only institution that's really seen as both. And that's actually a bit of a change from last year. Last year business was seen as competent, but not terribly ethical, this year they're the only institution that's really seen as both. And so it's not as if the other institutions have fallen away, it's more that business has really come through more than the other institutions, particularly I think in the context of the pandemic. And if you look at the institutions across the last 10 years, you could see government has in many places, ground to a halt due to excessive partisanship, media has in many ways, turned into assess pool of ideological warfare. NGOs just haven't been seen as stepping up in these times of crisis. And so in many ways, business has been the most reliable agent of positive change in this country. And I think that's why it's rewarded with this trusted status. Host: You mentioned you've been tracking a lot of this since 2012. What have been the three biggest overarching trends report has found since then? And any thoughts on what you see coming ahead in the next three to five years that might bring with us and how will AI impact this whole notion of truth and trust? Dr. David M. Bersoff: Yeah, let me pull that apart a little bit. Actually I want to cheat a little and call out four trends rather than three. Let me start with number one, the worsening trust gap between the more affluent top 15% of the population and everybody else. So the gap, the trust gap, in institutions between the more affluent and everybody else was 16 points this year, which is tied for the record. But what's even more telling is that back in 2012, there's 22 countries that we can track all the way back to 2012, back in 2012, only seven out of 22 countries had a double digit trust gap between the top 50% of the population and everybody else. In 2021, 21 out of our 22 countries had that double digit trust gap. And I think part of the reason why we're seeing that trust gap broadening across more markets is because of what's known as that case shape recovery. So we're in the middle of this pandemic and what we're finding is that certain people are recovering more quickly than others. Some people at least, from a financial point of view are almost whole, if not even a little better off than they were while other parts of the population are stagnating or even doing worse than they were a year ago. And part of the problem or the issue of why this is important is that if you have two segments of the population and there are different trajectories, so one is looking towards a future that looks good. The other is looking towards the future that doesn't look so good, suddenly you have two big constituents in the population that are not equally invested either in change or in protecting the status quo. And that's destabilizing when you have a society that can't decide whether it needs to change this dichotomy, the sense in which I have more of a investment in keeping things the way they are, and you have more of an investment in changing. That's the wedge that pop opens the door on populism. That's why we're seeing populism cropping up in countries around the world, because there is this disconnect where some people are differentially benefiting from what's happening from the status quo. Others are seeing themselves left out, left behind and are anxious for change. That's the first one. The second one is the change in flow of influence and information from a top down dynamic to a more horizontal pattern. So these days, and this wasn't always true, you're more likely to be convinced of something by your peers or by people you know than by experts and authority figures. And this, in my opinion, has actually been a debt negative for trust and stability and has hastened trend number three, which is one of the big themes this year in our study, which is the breakdown of the information ecosystem. So we're in the midst of an infodemic, which has become so extreme. We describe the world as being in a state of information bankruptcy, basically our information ecosystem, it's structurally unsound, it's built on a flawed business model and it's unable to meet its obligations. Now, this idea that the information ecosystem has been compromised by bad actors isn't really new. We've had a question in the survey for several years now about, do you worry about fake news and false information being used as a weapon? And globally, we find that about seven to 10 people do fear the weaponization of misinformation, but what's changed in the last year or so is assumptions or who we think the weaponizers of fake news and misinformation largely are. I think two, three, four years ago, people were thinking about Eastern European troll farms or cyber terrorists or Asian bot shops. And what's been made apparent by the pandemic, the fear around local issues such as the election in the US is that these days misinformation is largely a home grown phenomenon. And as a reflection of this, and this is one of these data points that really just have me shaking my head. More people today are worried that their own government leaders are purposely misleading them than they are, that other countries are contaminating our media with false news. So this whole questioning of the media inputs, of the information ecosystem, trust in media, trust in information and data, this is huge. And it's really come perse forth this year as a major problem. And then the fourth trend that I'll mention is this anointing of business. So we've been talking for years, that business needs to become engaged in social issues, they need to be citizens of society, they need to look beyond their bottom line. That's been talked about under the context of things like purpose or CSR, but what we're really seeing is the evolution of that into something much more extreme. And what we're seeing this year and last year a little bit, is that people have placed business on a pedestal and conferred upon it the responsibility for our future, as well as all the hopes and expectations that responsibility entails. This is way more than being a business that does good, this is business being called upon in many ways to be our savior, to bail us out. As the only adult left in the room, we're looking to business to fill leadership void left by media and NGOs and government. And the fact remains that business just isn't designed for that and CEOs aren't trained for that task. So while opting out of being the people's hero is not really an option, success is also not a shirt. I think it's going to be a major existential crisis for business over the next several years of can they live up to these new hopes and expectations and aspirations that have been heaped upon them and heaped upon them because they are the only institution that's both trusted and competent. So those are the four big trends that we've been tracking that have all in some ways come to us for this year. Host: It's interesting you say that because your report also found that most of the respondents identified "my employer" as the institution that they trusted most, which again, refers to the two you're talking about. So what responsibilities do employers then have in virtue of that trusted status? You mentioned they're not necessarily equipped for this nor trained. Is that going to become a necessary part of this job to be a leader you're going to have to navigate this world. And so you better learn it to be qualified to get the positions? Dr. David M. Bersoff: So essentially at the level of business first, before I get down into the employer, the fundamental role of business is in the midst of being redefined to include expectations of contributing to society beyond supplying, products, jobs, and philanthropic dollars, what I was referring to. As I also said, these expectations are way beyond what can be accomplished with CSR as a bolt on corporate function. And so what we're seeing is that doing good and being values driven is basically becoming an intrinsic part of what it means to be a trusted company and good public standing. So as a result, values and purpose are going to have to become part of the corporate DNA of any enterprise that hopes, And we've got data to support all of this, that hopes to retain customers over the long-term, keep their best employees and attract investment money. All of those stakeholders are looking for business to do this. It's not a choice for business, it's not a choice for CEOs. That said, within business, my employer holds a very privileged position of trust. We find that 76% of people trust their employer to do what is right. And that's a number that's been very stable over the past four years. So while we sometimes see some gyrations and trust associated with the other institutions, that trust in employer is high, consistent and rock solid. And I think it enjoys the special status for several reasons. First, the employer-employer relationship, it's a personal relationship. So you know your employer in general, they know you, it's a local relationship. It's a consistent presence in your daily life. And one of the things we're seeing these days is that trust has become more local. And third, you have leverage over your employer. So via collective action, employees do have the power to get their employers to change policies and get involved in issues. And these attributes all help to spawn and drive that trusting relationship. But beyond that, what makes this relationship special and important is that employers have power, they have resources, they have exponentially greater wherewithal to get things done than I do as an individual. So this relationship between employer and employee is not just a close, trusting relationship, it's a personal relationship with a rich, connected and powerful other, and it's the only such relationship most people have in their lives. And so you can understand why there's so much emotional energy around the employer, and you can also understand why we are highlighting the importance of that relationship. Because this relationship is I've described it, it puts employers and I would argue a unique position to supply their employees with what they're currently seeking most ardently, which is trustworthy information, reassurance about their future and the opportunity to create positive change. And these are becoming responsibilities of the employer to supply their employees with these things, which they can't get elsewhere. And in general, I think it's going to be difficult for untrusted institutions to rebuild trust in themselves in order to regrow trust needs a toehold. And from what I'm seeing, employers are that toehold and they really need to embrace that role. I think things are going to get better. The information problem is going to get addressed. Trust is going to be renewed, not so much from one grand gesture, but the actions of thousands of employers working with their employees and growing or regrowing that trust and faith in the system from the ground up. Host: I'm wondering how you saw that last year obviously COVID has been here for a year now, we're recording in March. How has it affected people's trust in the societal institutions? And do you see it lasting or what's the lasting impact from that? Dr. David M. Bersoff: Yeah, no, it's an interesting question. So we collect our trust data in October, November, and we really sit in January and of course, we released data in January of 2020, which of course, was prior to the pandemic, really becoming a reality, certainly in most of the Western countries. And then of course, it burst onto the scene and it had a huge impact on everything and every body. And so we went back out into the field to see what if anything the pandemic had done in terms of institutional trust. And what we found is that there was a trust search, trust in all the institutions actually went up and government in particular saw this big upward movement in trust. And it was actually at that point, the most trusted institution. Now, it's not unusual to see something like that in times like this it's that rallying around the flag idea or the circling the wagons that when you're in the midst of a crisis, people really rally around their institutions. And for some, it's an act of faith, for some it's an act of hope, for some it's the product of psychological necessity because the prospect of living through a major crisis at the mercy of untrustworthy institutions is just a little too scary to contemplate. But the idea is you do tend to see trust surges around events like this. And then the question becomes, is that search a bubble or is that a real change in the status of that institute? So like I said, we went out mid year, we saw the surge. We asked ourselves, is that a bubble or not? We're back out in the field at the end of 2020, which was at that point, close to a year into the pandemic. And what we found is that faith or hope or psychological defense mechanism that had caused trust to go up had collapsed in the face of the realities of a pandemic that just wasn't being well-managed. And as a result, the trust bubble burst and all of these institutions, which had this opportunity to burnish their image, they had this influx of faith and trust. Most of them squandered it, government squandered it more than any of the other institutions. But in general, that's been the story, that bubble has already burst to a large point. So the crisis itself increased trust, but how the institutions responded and reacted to that crisis has proven to not be up to the expectations of people. And that bubble has burst. Host: I was struck mostly for, by the trust chasm you described. And I'm wondering, obviously, COVID, must've played into that some as well, what can be done to reduce that gap? And do you think it would ever be fully erased? Is there some way to get people together again on basic facts and at least understanding what the day of the week is or what time it is or anything? Dr. David M. Bersoff: The trust gap, trust chasm, I don't think will ever be fully erased for the simple reason that that top 15%, the more educated, the more affluent, the more informed will always be in a better position to harvest the benefits of society or capitalize on the status quo. So there's always going to be a trust gap there, but what can and needs to be addressed is that the gap needs to be closed such that at least the top and the vast middle are not living in two separate trust realities. Because what we find in many markets is that the well-off are living in a world in which institutions are trustworthy and can be trusted while the mass population is living in a world where institutions are largely untrustworthy. And that dual reality, again, feeds into two groups of people that aren't on the same page, that don't see the same needs, that don't see the same problems that need to be fixed, and you can't get anything done when you have that bifurcation difference of experience, different realities, societies, especially democracies tend to grind to a halt if there's too many people split between two different realities. In terms of how to address that, I think the first thing that needs to be done is a dismantling of the structural inequalities within society. So you don't get these K shape situations. You need to have a situation in which if there's prosperity, everybody is sharing in it. So maybe not to the same degree, the same level, but if the country's doing well, almost everybody in the country is doing well. If the country isn't doing well, then almost everybody in the country isn't doing well. And so it gets everyone on the same page, we're all in the same boat. When you've get that separation, that's a recipe for disaster. And that separation tends to be driven by structural inequalities. And you see that around the issue of racism and structural inequalities around racism and how that basically pushes people off in two different trajectories. The society as a whole needs to address the issue of structural inequalities. And then the other thing that I think is important that societies aren't generally good at is change management. So we found in the 2020 barometer, actually, that 57% of respondents are worried that people like them are losing the respect and dignity that they once enjoyed in this country. And so, while I think part of the trust chasm is driven by economics, differential economics, structural inequalities, the other part of the trust chasm or another part of the trust chasm is driven by this sense among sizable number of people of being left behind, being left out, losing dignity, losing attention, not mattering anymore, not mattering anymore is huge. People don't take that lying down, it's not something they can accept and feeling like you're being left out or left behind or not considered, that drives sense that the things aren't fair, that our institutions lack ethics, that I have to take all I can get now, without any concern for the future generations, it really moves people to extreme behavior. It moves them to selfishness. It moves them to scapegoating, immigrants, minorities. It really is a very pernicious element within society. And I would rank it second to the infodemic as an embedded attitude or perspective that's really making things unstable, unpleasant and leading into a lot of the polarization and polarity that we're seeing in society today. Host: The barometer also breaks down findings by country and region, as it is worldwide. What are the biggest differences in trust between the US and China, the US and Europe, Latin America, and anything in these particular areas surprise you from the findings? Dr. David M. Bersoff: Yeah, sure. Actually, can I just go back to, I wanted to finish my answer to the other question. So I detailed the aspect of social inequalities, and I explained the problem of people being left behind. And so the cure for people being left behind is really this idea of better change management. What our institutions need to do to increase their efficacy and foster a spirit of cooperation versus entrench against within society, they need to make change seem less threatening and more inclusive. And at the same time, they need to make the people who will inevitably be disrupted by change, feel as protected and respected as possible. Change is going to happen. Change has to happen. Change needs to happen. What we've traditionally been very bad at is managing that change, acknowledging that certain people aren't going to benefit from that change, that helping people see their place in this new future that we are creating and protecting those who will be hurt by the future. Until we start doing that, you're going to continue to see that gap because change, progress, innovation is inevitable. We need to find a way of making that inevitable change less threatening big portions of the population in order to address that gap between the trustors and the non-trustors. Host: It sounds like a big task for education, and we should committed that we make to it. They're all tied together that way. The barometer breaks down findings by country and region. So what are some of the biggest differences you see between trust in the US and trust in China and the US and Europe and Latin America? Dr. David M. Bersoff: Sure. So we do look at trust by country and region, but that said, we don't really encourage looking at trust in one country versus trust in another country because there's different response tendencies at different parts of the world. And so you have a country like China, they tend to be more agreeable. They tend to agree with statements. They tend to use the higher ends of scales, et cetera. And so yes, there is a big trust difference between China and the US. China, when you look at the data, it looks to be a more trusting society and more trusting of its government. Now, part of that could be because China, they emerged more quickly from the pandemic, they had stronger economic growth, there's less governmental polarization preventing progress, but it's also likely partially due to the fact that as I said, the Chinese tend to be more positive than the Americans do. But what I do find that's really interesting in terms of the US versus China, is that when you look at how the rest of the world perceives China and the US and the trustworthiness of the Chinese government and the US government, what you find is that neither of these most powerful countries in the world, the natural candidates for global leader in this time of crisis, neither one of them is trusted by the rest of the world. So here you have the two most logical countries to take a leadership position in the world. They have very different governments, very different political systems, very different histories, very different philosophies. And yet neither one has been able to win the confidence of the rest of the world. There is now this open position as the defacto global leader. And right now the two most logical suspects for occupying that position just are not from a position or from the point of view of trust, equipped to be in a leadership position. Host: And the same for Europe and Latin America? Dr. David M. Bersoff: One of the big dividing lines, it's not so much region as it is developing versus developed markets. So that's why you see some skews for North America and Western Europe versus Asia and other places we look at, it's not so much geography as developing versus developed. And what you find is that developed markets tend to be less trusting than developing markets and the people in those markets tend to be less positive. And I think part of the reason for that, we get people who are somewhat puzzled. It's like, well, life in America is so much better than life in India or life in China, how come our trust numbers aren't higher? And so I talk about the fact that when people are assessing how they're doing, they don't compare themselves, people in the US sitting around the dinner table, assessing how they're doing. They're not sitting there looking at their lives and saying, "Well, at least we're doing better than the Chinese." They're looking at their lives and they're saying, "Am I doing better than my parents? Are we doing better than we were doing five years ago?" You compare yourself to other groups that are like you, or you at a previous point in time. And in some, in a country like the UK or France or the US, there's going to be more and more people saying, "You know what? My parents actually did better than I am, or you know what? I actually feel like I've lost ground over the last five or 10 years." That's going to lead you to distrust institutions, to lose faith in the system even if your benchmark day to day life is objectively higher or better than people in developing markets. But those people in developing markets, they're sitting around the dinner table and they're saying, "You know what? We have more freedoms than our parents and grandparents did. We're doing better than them. We're more educated or more advanced. We have more things. And you know what? We, as a family are doing better than we were five or 10 years ago." That does a lot to drive the sense that our institutions are trustworthy, the country's on the right track, things are okay, things are looking good. And that results in some of these regional differences where the more developed countries just appear to be less trusting, less optimistic, less faith in the system, than some of these developing markets, even though the standard of living in those developing markets, isn't as high. Host: It's a question of forward momentum, yeah. I guess if you're moving forward, you're feeling positive. Dr. David M. Bersoff: Exactly. It really is about that momentum. It doesn't matter how well you're doing, if you see yourself going backwards, that's all you need. Then it's like, life sucks. And on the converse, if you see things moving up and getting better, you can absorb a lot of punishment, a lot of hardship when you're looking towards a future that's brighter than your present. Host: I really enjoyed this. Let me get you out of here with one last question then, are you hopeful as you're speaking about hope for the future of truth and why or why not? Dr. David M. Bersoff: So when I look towards the future in general, I keep in mind that this country survived McCarthyism and survived the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, unrest, lies and misinformation around the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and all the protests of the 60s. So the country has come through tough times and seemingly attractable differences in our values before, and so that, our history gives me hope. But to the point you were raising, I don't think that unless until we cure the infodemic and emerge from information bankruptcy, I don't see a way forward. And what that means at a foundational level, until the rewards in society. And those rewards could be money or power or influence until those rewards are greater for spreading truth than for spreading lies and are greater for facilitating cooperation rather than fomenting divisiveness, especially democracies, we're going to continue to founder and suffer and weaken our societies. Certainly, I think business has a big role to play in fixing some of these problems, particularly around information, but ultimately, we also need government and media to start working again. And as bad as January 6th was as a watershed moment of distrust and misinformation, I still don't believe we hit rock bottom, even with that event yet. And I do worry that it might take an even bigger shock particularly to this country before we shake ourselves out of that, before there is a greater reward for truth over lies and for cooperation over polarization. Host: Certainly sobering as we go forward. And we joked before about agreeing on what day it is, but there are probably some people who would argue. It's scary. Dr. David M. Bersoff: Absolutely. Host: Hopefully, we'll figure this out as we go, but I want to thank you so much, David. This was really interesting and great. You guys do such a great job with this report and it's always a wealth of information. And I know our listeners are fascinated by it as well as I am. So thank you very much and stay safe. And we look forward to seeing you again in the future. Dr. David M. Bersoff: You bet. Thank you. Outro: We hope you enjoyed this episode. The Principal Podcast is brought to you by LRN. At LRN our mission is to inspire principled performance in global organizations, by helping them foster winning ethical cultures rooted in sustainable values. Please visit us at lrn.com to learn more. And if you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our podcast on apple podcasts, Stitcher, Google podcasts, or wherever you listen. And don't forget to leave us a review.

ACEC Government Affairs Update for 8-20-21: A Conversation with Former DOT Secretary Slater and T&I Chairman Shuster

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 20, 2021 41:06

On this week's Government Affairs Update, we are joined by Rodney Slater, former Transportation Secretary under the Clinton Administration and Bill Shuster, former Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. Both are now with Washington, DC lobbying firm Squire Patton Boggs. In a wide ranging conversation, we cover the status of infrastructure in Congress, how Secretary Buttigieg is doing, and the what lies ahead for Speaker Pelosi in the House as it returns from the August recess. Transcript: Host: Welcome to the Government Affairs Update from American Council of Engineering Companies. Today, we are very pleased to bring you two experts when it comes to infrastructure to get some interesting perspectives on what's happening right now in Washington, as the bipartisan agreement on infrastructure moves from the Senate over to the House. And I'm joined today by Secretary Rodney Slater and former Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, Bill Shuster, both of whom are right now with Squire Patton Boggs in Washington, DC. Secretary Slater was Transportation Department Secretary under President Bill Clinton, and Chairman Shuster, in full disclosure, I used to work with Chairman Shuster while he was Chairman of the T&I Committee. Both bring extensive experience here. And I thank you both for joining us today on the program. Thank you very much for coming on. Secretary Slater: Thank you. Host: I want to start off actually with you Chairman Shuster, because this is, this is kind of an interesting situation we find ourselves in because you spent a significant amount of time and energy as both a member of T&I, and then also as Chairman in pushing a long-term, substantive infrastructure bill beyond just highway authorization. How does it feel seeing this now to be so close to such a generational investment in infrastructure? Chairman Shuster: Well, I think it's good. The bill is, is this large - a trillion dollars, it has some positive, real positive things in it. Like for instance, taking the cap off the PABs, that is one thing they've done. They've done some procurement reforms in it. That's positive. And they've also put in a section, I think it's a hundred million dollars that goes to states and locals to help them analyze a big job, big projects, to see if it makes more sense to use the private sector dollars or to or to stay with traditional government programs. And I think that's a thing because I think they're going to find in many cases it may be a little bit cost higher up front, but when you get the private sector involved over a period of time, it usually drives the cost down because the private sector is very much focused on that. Chairman Shuster: They did some things in there that I wish they would have eased up on. Some of them, they put some regs in there too, and I believe it's going to make it a little more difficult to build roads and bridges because of some of the things that they put back in or increased. But I think overall the fact that it's a bipartisan bill, it's got a pretty big number. It includes some things that haven't been traditional like broadband, which I think is is something that you've got Republican support for. I just wish my good friend, Peter DeFazio, he didn't, he wasn't able to get a bipartisan bill out of the house. And, and I think we've seen over the last 20, 30 years at Secretary Slater knows transportation bills when they come out on a bipartisan way they pass. And that's what we've seen in the Senate. And I think the House will take it up to pass it also. Host: And Secretary Slater, I mean, looking at this bill and how expansive it is and how it goes beyond your traditional roads, bridges and highways and rail systems and the like, you know, what, how, what do you think this means, you know, for the economy? Secretary Slater: Yeah. Well, first of all, Jeff, I'm excited about the bill. I mean, it's taken them a long time to make infrastructure week something other than, you know, a tagline to a conference without the action to go along with it. And so I applaud the President, you know, I know the Vice President was involved, and clearly other members of this team Steve Richetti in particular and the entire Congress for really working hard to pull this off. Now I say the entire Congress. So you know, I'm being cautiously optimistic here, but I think with the momentum built by the action of the Senate, that that's a real possibility and I'm, I'm excited about it. I echo the sentiments that the chairman noted about the differences in this bill as relates to bills in the past. You know, this focus on broadband is just essential in this day in time. Secretary Slater: And especially in this post pandemic era that we're trying to bring online, but I also applaud the leaders for really giving us a bill that has a lot more resilience focus to it, sustainability focused dealing with some of the climate challenges we face and then issues as relates to equity. And so I think that it's a bill that is future oriented future leaning. There are those who might argue that more needs to be done clearly the Democrats and any Republican that might have that belief will have an opportunity to deal with that with the with the other measures that are being put forward. But when it comes to really doing something that is akin to what we've done in the past, and then sort of building back better, I think that this is an answer to that to that challenge, Host: You know, Secretary, you bring up a good point because one of the words has been used a lot is the question of resiliency, and it's just not resiliency against extreme weather, but it's also resiliency for critical infrastructure against external threats. I mean, we're seeing a significant increase in the number of cyber-attacks on computer systems and just critical hard infrastructure. And Chairman you also did a lot of work at T& I on pre-disaster mitigation getting the dollars there and getting things done before the next storm hits before the next tropical storm turns into a hurricane. Do you think the bill does enough? If not, you think that, that, what, what do you think needs to be done in addition, you know, to really what we're looking at here in this bipartisan agreement to really strengthen our infrastructure? Let's start with the Chairman. Chairman Shuster: I think the bill does. A good bit in it to help with resiliency, which, you know, as we were talking about back on the committee of how do we build things before they collapse or hurricane blows them down or whatever the case may be. And at the end of the day, you save money by building these things stronger, being able to withstand a catastrophic weather event. So I think it's positive. I think that there, there needs to be more streamlining to get these things done because I just, I feel that as we did in the past, we run into these hurdles to build these things faster and more effectively. But I think overall, it's, it's a, it's a positive thing. It isn't enough, probably not, but it all depends on what if the hurricanes and the tornado seasons and the earthquake seasons and the fire seasons over the next coming years looks like. But I, I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. Secretary Slater: I agree with that. And Jeff, if I may, I, I think that the members of the Council really have a big role to play here. I mean, this is not something that's across the finish line just yet, but you know, engineering companies that are in the business of giving us the kind of system we need and deserve going forward, actually spending the resources in a proper way. You have a lot to say about this bill about it's, I mean, people may say shortcomings. I just think it's to be applauded the fact that we've gotten it done. There are other things that could have been done. Maybe a bit more here or there that can be done later. We shouldn't allow the perfect to sort of distract us from the, from the good, and this is a good, good start. Secretary Slater: And when it comes to the issue of you know, security and cyber concerns, I mean, we, there's a report in today's paper about the rail system in Iran, possibly being attacked by cyber-attacks. And then just a few months ago some pipeline here in the US and also a ferry system up in the in the Northeast. So we've got these issues to be concerned about, and I'm very pleased, and we're starting to really come to grips with this, both the public and the private sectors to do something about it. Host: Yeah. You raise a good point, especially with the rail system in Iran. I mean as some of our larger firms and actually a lot of our medium-sized firms as well, you know, it's a question of designing the best infrastructure possible. And usually today, that means with the rise of AI and machine learning and the like, intelligent transportation systems, which are networked, which are, you know, have to talk to each other that are open up to potential external threat. So the question is designing it in such a way where it's hardened. Host: And you're correct to the point that it's good, that we're having the conversation that, that this has to be. And also the fact that our firms are designing not for what is today, but what will be 20 years, 30 years down the line, the bridge is going to last a hundred years for the building on a shore that's going to potentially see a sea level you rise or, or erosion from the beach. Host: And those are all things that, of course our members are very concerned about. On the question to pay-fors because this is something which is interesting because when we got the framework, when everybody's wondering, okay, how are we going to pay for this thing? And then through the debate and the amendment debate, you know, they really considered everything from unspent COVID dollars to changing regulations on reporting requirements on cryptocurrencies, but what wasn't really talked about a lot with the user fee and, and, you know, Chairman Shuster, I know, you know, from my experience with you, it was always that simple, very basic argument of saying that if you use the roadways, you should pay into keeping them in good repair, and that user fee consideration. Secretary Slater, you were with the Clinton administration. Of course I was the last time the tax, the gas tax was actually addressed. It seems like we're getting further away from the idea of that user fee model. What do you both see as the future of, of infrastructure funding chairman you know, where do you see things moving? Chairman Shuster: Think it's, first of all, look, we made a mistake when the Republicans controlled the house in 2005, I guess when we passed safety loo we, when we were doing this big tax bill, I, you know, what the leadership and try to convince them, instead of giving the average American a $2,000 cut in their taxes, let's do $1,800 or $1,750 and, and deal with the gas tax because that is a user fee. And again, I think they missed the opportunity not to do the user or the gas tax forever, but to do it for a period of time that they can't implement, implement something that's different. And that would be miles travel tax. And they, they, they put some big, they expanded the pilot program, but I really think they were going to be dealing in five years with how are we going to fund the next transportation bill? Chairman Shuster: And with this bill, they had to back fill the highway trust fund shortage. It's like $120 billion, and that's going to just keep growing. So, you know, and it's, I believe as a conservative that as you pointed out at the beginning, if you're going to use the system, you need to pay into the system. And I'll just say this for rural America, where I come from, the average, every dollar that a rural community puts in, they get back about a $1.70. So it's a pretty good benefit for rural America for roads and bridges being built across their communities. Host: And we also saw last year the number of states that took it upon themselves to increase their own state gas tax that state after state, you know, did something to improve the amount of revenue that was coming in to their own coffers. And no one seemed to pay that political price that everybody expected, that, that idea that boogeyman of saying, if you raise the gas tax, you're going to lose an election. At least the state level never actually materialized. Right? Chairman Shuster: I was going to add, I think that number's up to about 35. Yeah. Have done it. And then the real test case was California. Two years ago, I guess was two years ago. Was it less than a year, I guess was a year ago they had it on the ballot and they rejected repealing the gas tax, something like 57 to 43. So, you know, people understand, they want the roads and bridges to be uncongested and they don't want to bust their tires, break a tire, damage their vehicles. So I think people get it if you, if you pitch it in the right way. Secretary Slater: Yeah. You know, I, I agree with the Chairman on this. And I, I would say, I was thinking about actually Kentucky, Arkansas, some of the other Southern states in particular where Southern governors, you know, have stepped forward to move these measures. Secretary Slater: I was pleased to hear about the reference to California. I mean, I think it makes the case that it's happening across the country. I would offer this in defense of the of the Biden administration in this regard. I think what the president is attempting to do is to sort of rebalance things. And he recognizes that there has been this inequity in the system where frankly, the burden of progress is placed on the shoulders all too often of those who can, you know, either least pay or have the hardest time paying. And I think what he's trying to do here is to say, look, we're not going to raise the tax burden of anyone making less than 400,000 as a couple. That's, that's pretty significant. And so he did not want to raise the gasoline tax for that purpose. Secretary Slater: Did not want to go with vehicle miles traveled for that purpose. And I think where he finds himself at this point, it probably is a policy. That is a good one. Now I don't think that it closes the door always to an increase in use of fees. I think it probably such it up where it, at a time in the future, it'll be a lot fairer to maybe do some of that. And I see that, that time coming, but I can see why the president would want to, at this point have significant lines in the sand about what he would and would not want to see. And then, you know, frankly keep his powder drive when it comes to negotiating at an end point where, you know, you have to find closure on these things. And so I think that's a pretty good position to take. Secretary Slater: I will note this too, that Jeff you're right, that during the early days of the Clinton Administration, the gasoline tax was raised but the president would note that he made the case that it should be raised to deal with the deficit to put our economic house in order in balance. And then four years later was actually when we had the resources transferred from the general fund to the highway fund. So as to take advantage of that 4.3% increase in the gasoline tax. So it was done in a two-step kind of fashion. And it may be that with the passage of time, we may get to a point where we can support more funding for infrastructure through user fees. I agree with that. But I also think we should test any number of other options too. And I know the chairman agrees with this because we've talked about things like an infrastructure bank. We've talked about other public private financing techniques. I mean, putting it all on the table and then selecting those that best fit the moment is the proper course, I believe. Host: It seems like today with the amount of innovative financing available that there are a lot more opportunities to break away from the paradigm of just a simple, you know, either a lockbox highway trust fund, or just all always pulling from the general fund to instead look at other options - P3's whether it's capture or that investment, the reinvestment of potential, you know, I forget exactly what was called chairman, but it was something that you were talking about when you were chairman. It was, it was when, when we bring somebody in to buy something or to lease out an airport.... Chairman Shuster: Asset recycling. Host: Yeah, exactly. How a P3 or asset recycling, something like that. In your conversations with people in government in and out, is that something which seems to be gaining some traction? Chairman Shuster: I think you're always going to have to have some kind of governmental component, whether it's a fed state putting money into it, because these deals we're seeing around the beltway here in Washington, DC, I think the Virginia invested about 20% of the money into it to get a cost down where they wouldn't have enormous tolls on those, on those hot lanes or fast lanes. But so I think there's always that component that will always be there, but I think yes, looking at things like an infrastructure bank and because we look at an infrastructure bank and we've been pushing this during this bill, they almost had a piece. It was a very scaled back version of, there was a infrastructure finance financing agency was small and they, they finally pulled it out the end, unfortunately, but I think, you know, folks in your community the ACEC they deal with these TIFIA and RIFF programs. Chairman Shuster: And every time I talked to a contractor engineer, they tell me it takes 14 to 16 months to get through this process and it's painful and it's cost a lot of money. And so I think having a true infrastructure bank based on the federal home loan bank, it's a real bank, it's independent chartered by the federal government. They're going to be, they can make loans in 90 to 120 days. And if it's a good project or not, and it's only going to be a component of the, just like a P3 is a component of the financing package. So I think it's time for us to really look at these other ideas, asset recycling where it makes sense. And again, as the Secretary said, what comes next is probably a vehicle miles traveled, but we've got all kinds of barriers and hurdles because folks don't want somebody tracking them. But as far as my son, when he was in his early twenties, he held up his iPhone and said, they're tracking every moment of the day. Host: You're being tracked one way or another. Secretary Slater: And Jeff, Jeff, can I just say this, I should have mentioned earlier that even when we increased the gasoline tax and the chairman's father was actually in the Congress along with a former secretary and Congressman Norman Mineta. I mean Jim Oberstar, I mean, just a wonderful group of individuals on the House side. I mentioned the House because I want to put the heat on the House to do what the Senate has done that. But, but they also really gave us tools to create some of these innovative financing programs. The chairman mentioned the TIFIA program, the RIFF program, all of that came into being at that time. And again, it was because of a good piece of legislation that gave federal highways and federal transit and all the Department of Transportation and others, the Treasury the ability to, with the private sector to gain insights about how we might fashion programs that resulted in those programs. I think that there are likely to be some measures that can be used in this bill. Even though, you know, it may not be as clear now that will help us to tap some of those private sector dollars and the private sector ingenuity that you just have to have as a part of an effort like this. And I think ACEC can be a really big part of that of that effort going forward. Host: That's, that's a really good point. And thanks for bringing that up because that's something which, you know, our members need to be pretty strong advocates for this, and they need to take, take their own experience from the private sector, work, working with public sector clients and explaining how they can be more efficient. And that's one of the things we always talk about, qualification space selection. It's kind of that idea of saying that Secretary Slater: We are at the lowest price exactly. Qualification over, over cost. Host: Secretary Slater, let me, let me ask you as a former Secretary of the Department Transportation, right now, how would you, how would you rate the job that Secretary Buttigieg is doing on selling the agenda? Secretary Slater: Well, I don't think it could have been express better than in the post today. That was a, a love piece. Although I thought it was, was balanced as well, because it's all teed up. He still has to deliver it. And yet I've talked about that too. I said, you know, it's great to have a president. Who's talking about infrastructure is great to have, you know, the conduit team that you've got with Polly Totenberg and others there to help you make it happen. But at the end of the day, you gotta make it happen. And I thought what was very telling in the article today, and this is what I really want to underscore is the way that he's made himself available. I mean, to Republicans and Democrats this was actually, I thought set up in his hearing where there were so many members who, you know, they had their issues with him and they, you know, they would take him on, I mean, that's the responsibility I think of the Congress to test the administration. Secretary Slater: That's what our three branches of government separation of powers. That's what that's all about. But then almost invariably at the end of the round, you would have a member saying, and I hope that you will be able to come to mind my state. I know that the chairman has had that experience and, and, and to have a, a secretary or a member of the administration say that not only am I willing to do it, I look forward to doing it so that we together can be on the ground with your constituents, looking at challenges you face that's what really gets a member's attention. And that's what gains their respect, that rate. And throughout the article, you could just see just any number of people mentioned in that way. And you know, that they don't all have this, that they don't all agree on everything. Secretary Slater: And so I think that he is doing a tremendous job. I think that the article was correct in saying that there was always the likelihood that he would be in the president's cabinet or a member of his team where he selected because of the endorsement and the warm endorsement that he gave to Mr. Biden at a very critical time in his campaign. And then the president saying just off the cuff that he reminded him of his son. I mean, all of those things sort of lining up. And then it was noted that he had some interests, but, you know, the president gets a chance to choose. And he said, look, I think that you can best help me and help the country serving in this capacity. And I would say that that the former mayor Pete now, secretary Pete has not disappointed. I'm very, very pleased with the way he's gone about his work. And I think all of these relationships, they're going to pay dividends in the short term and the longterm, and they'll pay dividends for him or his team, and clearly for the the president as well. And so I'm, I'm very, very pleased Host: Chairman. You've worked with a number of secretaries. Where would you put him? Chairman Shuster: I, well, first I think the, you know, Secretary Slater is right on target saying, I think he's done a pretty good job. He's measured when he speaks to, you know, to the media. He's not, you know, throwing bombs out there, which I think is important, especially on an issue like transportation and infrastructure. I think, I think he's also, he's, he's obviously bright. I think we did. He demonstrate that in the debates, I was always impressed with them. Didn't always agree with where his policies were, but I smart he's young, hopefully that makes him want to think outside the box. It says to the secretary of Slater's point, you got to get it done, man. It's great. You got to having a bill here, but you're the guy that's going to have to make that department start to hum. Chairman Shuster: And I think too, that, and this is, I forget who said this - might have been Secretary Slater, or maybe Secretary Skinner said, this is the first time I can remember that the Secretary of Transportation was a presidential candidate. So he's got his own platform of followers. They're saying, Hey Secretary, Pete, you know, we love the guy we were with him when he was running for president. So I think that gives you a whole different platform to be able to get out there and go around the country, but to Secretary Slater's point, he's absolutely right. Going into members' districts, talking to members. I think I think what I've heard from a number of the, at least the moderate Republicans that said, he's great, great access to him, he would call them up. He would, you know, talk, talk through the issues, what they thought were important. So I think that's really important. I know the Secretary Slater did it. I know Ray LaHood did it. You know, through the years I named Sam Skinner, when he would have him out on a conference, he said, he sat down with a members' leadership of the House and the Senate different committees once a month and had breakfast with him. So he, you know, he stayed in touch with him. So I think that's important. Host: And I mean, if this does, if he does land this and like you said, you gets it done. He's going to be sitting on, I mean, Jeff Davis from Eno, kind of doing a rack up on Twitter. And it seems like he would have in competitive grant funding, almost the amount will be quadrupled over what is, what is, what has been in the past almost about 24 to $33 billion, depending on exactly what gets through appropriations. I mean, that's a massive war chest to sit on. That's a political weapon as well. Now I think you meet that point, you know, being a former candidate, he's young, he's got aspirations. I, you know, for the Secretary, I mean, how, how, what advice would you give to sit on that record amount of competitive grant funding? Secretary Slater: Well, I, I would say it a little differently. I would say Jeff, don't sit on it. Host: Yeah. Send it, spend it. Chairman Shuster: I would agree the secretary - right out the door. Secretary Slater: You know, all of the meetings up to this point where you go out and you say, oh man, this would be a great project to fund, that's one thing. When you can go back a little later with all of those resources and say, this is a great project to fund and we're going to fund it. That's a lot better. First of all, you basically say I'm here with the Congressman who is going to make an important now, because it's all about continuing to build those relationships. And I think that I think the secretary is going to really have a wonderful time with members of his team doing just that. And, and, and frankly, I think he'll be creating opportunities really for the president, the vice-president, you know, maybe even a secretary of grand home and others to do that same thing as well. Because the, the key is to not, you know, it's, it's not to sit on it and it's also not to gloat in it. I mean, it's all about really doing the business of the American people and getting everybody involved. And I, I think as a mayor, he's going to understand a former mayor. He's going to just understand that instinctively. Host: And Chairman, I mean, you were great at this. I mean, you made sure both as Chairman and then also back in the ninth district of making sure that everyone at every level of government was included in those announcements, because to underscore the fact that everybody from county commissioner all the way up to member of Congress had a part to play. Chairman Shuster: Well and that's the Secretary's point with the department that the Secretary of Transportation, he may not go down to that granular. When you're a member of the House, you need to go to the township supervisors, have them sit in there with you or whoever it is because it's you know, it, it helps it helps everybody out. And so I think this is, as the Secretary said, you get the stuff out the door. And I believe he's going to get it in places that need like rural Pennsylvania, if he does some good work in rural Pennsylvania, the next time around in elections. I mean, the Democrats win Philadelphia and Pittsburgh big, but if they can diminish how big they lose in the, in the center of the state than it, it's better for their candidates. And again, there's, there's good projects out there for everybody to be able to participate. Secretary Slater: Yeah. And Jeff before, before we go on, I just thought about this. I do think that that Senator Schumer should be given some credit here as well. And I think it was very significant that you had, you know, 19 Republicans, including the minority leader. And I just think you know Majority Leader Schumer and Minority leader McConnell. I just think that they, they deserve a lot of credit here. And I know when the chairman was in office, these were the kinds of victories that you really relish where it was not just the chairman, but it was the ranking member and, you know, the other members of the committee and leadership and really down to the last person coming on because of seniority coming on the committee. Secretary Slater: So I think that manifested itself on the, on the Senate side as well. And, and look, you've got that Brent Spence bridge in the Ohio Kentucky area on I-75 that's going to get some attention now, much needed attendance. And that's very important to the constituents in that region. Chairman Shuster: And it won't be lost on anybody that Rob Portman was the chief, negotiator. Secretary Slater: No doubt about it. Chairman Shuster: And he's from the Southwestern and Cincinnati area. Secretary Slater: We were honored at one point that he was a member of Squire Patton Boggs too. I think I should, we should say that, you know, years ago, Host: Well, I have two final questions. One, I want to ask the Chairman, because now we're looking at the house, we've got the INVEST Act. You made the point that, that it wasn't as bipartisan as previous bills have been at least on the vote total coming out. You know, there's, there's some argument being made about, okay, take the Senate bill up and just get it done. Your experience working across from Chairman DeFazio for a number of years. I mean, he's been very vocal on some areas of policy that are not in the bill, dealing with climate, also dealing with resiliency, do you see him letting leadership kind of move this forward or use without the opportunity to amend it. Or do you think he's going to want to have that formal conference, he's going to want to have the opportunity for the house to put his stamp on it? Chairman Shuster: Well, he's already, he's already given up on a conference because he realizes you go to conference and this thing will never get done. So I think it's going to come over. I think there's the potential for being a couple of amendments, but they're going to be very few and they've got to be something that's agreed to by the, basically the 69 senators that voted for it. So it can be things that, you know, are correcting things and maybe the Senate didn't do right. Because that always occurs, but I don't think you're going to see anything major. And I think the DeFazio, Chairman of DeFazio is going to now focus on getting more dollars to put in these different areas that he has that he, that he supports very much. And that'll be some of these things like resiliency. And, but again resiliency and some of the climate change policies, but he can't change the policy and budget reconciliation, but he can plus up plus up the money or pick the money from one to another, but he can't change policy. So I think he's going to be very focused on that. Host: And just a state of play question for you both to kind of round out the conversation. So right now the current state of play in the House Speaker Pelosi has floated a dear colleague letter, but essentially says that she wants to try to twin both the budget resolution to the infrastructure bill in the rules package, which means that voting on one is voting on both. That's gotten some pushback from moderate Democrats. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that it is going to be a twofer or do you think that you know, there's going to be an agreement to allow infrastructure to go first and then the budget reconciliation? I mean, how do you see the state of play in the House coming at the end of the month? Chairman Shuster: I think she's in a very tough spot. She's got her progressives, they're saying they're not voting for it unless they vote on the big package. And she's got her moderates saying, we're not going to vote on that big package, you need to pair it down. And by the way, we also want to vote on this thing. So I think she's in a really tough spot. She can't afford to lose more than what, three votes, four votes? So she's in a tough spot and I'm not sure how to work out. I don't think it's going to happen. Well, I know for sure it's not going to happen at the end of this month because they're just coming back in the House, to vote for the budget, which will pass. And then they they're coming back September 20th. But I think if she's got this fight to keep them paired some way somehow you know, one goes, first, one goes second kind of thing. Chairman Shuster: She'd probably be, I would bet on Nancy to get it done, but I don't think it's going to look the same you know, at the end of August as it does at the end of October. I mean for these two bills. The infrastructure is going to stay basically the same. It's how big the other package will be. Secretary Slater: Yeah. You know, I'd pick up on the comments of the Chairman in that regard. I think that if I were going to bet on anyone getting it done, I would bet on the Speaker. But that doesn't mean that you cannot acknowledge that it's going to be a heavy, heavy, heavy lift. I, you know, I just think that first of all, I, I just, I don't think we, and I think, I think she took note of this. Secretary Slater: I, I don't think you can just dismiss the significance of the bipartisan vote in the Senate and the size of that vote. I mean, that was, that was very significant. I didn't know that the numbers would be that high. I mean, I would, I was basically counting on 10, 11 maybe. Yeah. But that was it signaled that they would, because I think the highest we got with those who were sort of saying, well, maybe it was about 11. And so I think it bodes well for a number of things that are important to a number of people beyond infrastructure. I mean, I think you've got a criminal justice reform opportunity here. I think you might have something on voting. And I think that you know, the, the Speaker has all of that to navigate and to balance and to negotiate. Secretary Slater: And I just think she ultimately gets it done, but it'll be very, very difficult. I'd also like to say just in support of a Chairman DeFazio, I think he's done a tremendous job as well. I think that his effort was necessary, even though it was a little partisan. And I think, you know, it cut against what his natural tendency was. I mean, and that was to work with your Ranking Member to kind of work through, you know, the process in a way that is, you know, institutionally sound and, and frankly an effort, a way that he'd been a part of for so many years. But I think that what he recognized was that he had to really help the Speaker in speaking to the progressive wing of the party in a way that would keep it engaged. And you know, and I think engaged is probably the best way to say it and they are engaged. Secretary Slater: Now you've got this process going now where the various you know, parts of the party will express itself and she'll have to hear all of that, not dismiss any of it. And then carefully, you know, bind it all together with, I think the ultimate argument and that is don't let perfect get in the way of the good, I really think that it comes down to that and let us survive for another fight. And, you know, it's, it's acknowledged that some of that fight in the future will have her being supportive of others who will be at the helm. And I think she will say, look, stay with me. And you know, I've just tried to be as open as possible to make sure that all opinions are heard, all arguments are given an airing and I believe this is the best we can do. And I think that's what it ultimately is. That's what the final question is. And then the votes are counted and I don't think you take a breath until the last vote is cast, you know, so, and as, as the chairman said, it's a three vote - I mean, she's got three votes to [inaudible]. Host: Yeah. Well, it's going to be an interesting end of August. It's been an interesting August to begin with. I mean, so let's, let's get it done. Hopefully this can get this voted on and passed before the beginning of September. And, and that would be a great thing. So I really appreciate your time and your insight because you both been there you've worked on these issues. You have great insight that I know our audience of member firm executives loves to hear. So thank you for taking the time both of you. And of course, Rodney Slater former Secretary of Transportation is a partner at Squire Patton Boggs now. And of course, Chairman Bill Shuster, former Chairman of the House Transportation Infrastructure Committee, and representative of the of the ninth congressional district or the ninth as it were before redistricting - a Senior Policy Advisor at a Squire Patton Boggs as well. And again, this has been the government affairs update from American Council of Engineering Companies. Thanks for being with us. We'll going to see you next time.

A Conversation with ACEC Board Chair Robin Greenleaf

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 4, 2021 26:42

ACEC Board Chair Robin Greenleaf sat down on the program to discuss her experiences to this point in her term. Host: Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast from the American Council of engineering companies. And today we are very pleased to be joined by our board chair, Robin Greenleaf and full disclosure - we actually did this before and we had a technical issue, right when Robin was elevated to chair, we had a podcast scheduled and then the file for some reason in the cloud, the gremlins in the system never actually transferred the file. So, we're doing it again, but now we have a little bit more time has passed and Robin has been engaged in a number of things. I mean, summer ExCom has happened. We've had a number of things occur, so it's going to be great to get her kind of impressions and thoughts about where, where things stand with ACEC and her outlook as chair. So Robin, thank you very much for joining the program once more. Greenleaf : Jeff, I'm happy to be here and you're right. I think that I went from having what was a part-time job to a more than full-time job. So happy to have a chance to talk about it. Host: Yeah. You have really hit the ground running. And you've been traveling - you've been in Washington, DC multiple times for different events, both at the townhouse and then the office, of course we have the summer ExCom at Mackinac Island. I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. I'm not sure, but in Michigan, sorry for those Michiganders if I did pronounce that incorrectly, but yet the summer ended up ExCom in person. I really, I, you know, from, we spoke early when you just took the office and, and now we're at the beginning of August, where are things right now with ACEC as you see them, how has it changed over that time? Greenleaf : So I think that at this point we have the two biggest issues that we were facing that were on the radar screen, but had not really gotten started to the degree I'm seeing now is infrastructure and the PPP FAR credit issue, and both are in full-blown things are happening minute to minute. It's very exciting that, you know, the House got their bill done. And then the Senate went and put a bipartisan bill together, which is, is I think, going to happen. And I'm very interested in seeing what happens to the Senate bill when it gets back to the House. There's a lot of I think there's still a ways to go there, but it looks like we may have a trillion dollar infrastructure bill in the short term, which would be fantastic for our industry. And I think that the the issue with the PPP FAR credit clause has gone from getting traction in the House to at this point. What I'm hearing is that we are very close to having a bipartisan group of senators who are willing to put an amendment in the manager's amendment for a full waiver on the issue, which would be huge for so many of our members. So, you know, we'll know more in the coming days and see what happens when it goes back to the House. Host: It really is amazing. We've been talking about this for months. This has been such a long process and when it finally picks up speed, as we saw last week with the cloture vote, and now with a 20 little over 2000 page two, I think 2,207 page bipartisan bill finally introduced yesterday on Sunday, we're recording this on Monday the 2nd. And then the expectation that the Senate could move the past as soon as Thursday if they're able to get through some of the other barriers that they have on amendment debate, and then getting it over to the House and potentially having something by the late September, let's say mid, mid to late September wants the House comes back at the end of their August recess to get something on the president's desk and get it signed into law. It's amazing how, how fast things have picked up. Greenleaf : There's still things that we need to keep our eye on. I think that hearing that the Speaker of the House is wanting to tie the reconciliation bill to getting this through. You know, there's still some hurdles to clear, but yeah, I think in terms of our own issues and, and being so close to having a great resolution to a big issue, probably one of the bigger issues I've seen since I've been active with ACEC you know, I'm just keeping fingers and toes crossed that we get there. Host: Absolutely. And I, this is a great time for our members that are listening, that, you know, the Senate is going to be doing their work this week and the House is already out in recess, but in no way, does that mean the process is going to stop. Negotiations are going to continue. They're going to ramp up if anything, and it's the perfect time with those members back in their districts to meet with them and educate them on why this bill is so important, not only to your business, but also to the economy as a whole, and then to show them as much as you possibly can, the work that you do and to crystallize in their mind. So when they come back to Washington at the end of the recess, that they have one thought in their mind, which is, this is a bill that has to pass because those complications, as you mentioned, the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill that Speaker Pelosi and the House Progressives are, are very firm on addressing first, before they talk touch infrastructure is something which is a, is, is a slight complicating factor instead of just dealing with one bill. Host: So this is a great time to educate members and that's something our grassroots does a great job of, and it's just continue that and keep that pressure on. Greenleaf : Yeah, I agree. Host: So what else has kind of changed when we talked early on in the spring? Of course we had a couple of things that were, were key items that you were working on first of course, is the three-year budget cycle. And that was addressed during, during, you know, the, the board meeting. It was addressed again during ExCom meeting, you know, that as well as our initiatives related to the Strategic Plan, especially on diversity and inclusion and add changing the name of the committee so that now it includes the word belonging and, and opening that committee up to as many people who can join. So where, where do things kind of stand right there? And how is that, where is that in the list of priorities for you today? Greenleaf : Well, sure. So let me address the budget issue first, because that's ongoing. We've had a couple of meetings with the budget committee. I just had a financial oversight meeting just prior to starting the podcast. And we have another budget committee meeting on August 9th and staff has done a great job putting together the preliminary numbers for what the next three years looks like. And they look okay, you know, kind of pleased that it looks like we're going to be able to put together a good stable, predictable budget. There are still things that need to be fine tuned. And once we get this all together, Matt Hirst, our treasurer will present it at the October meeting. And then we'll start a series of town hall type meetings with our national directors and the executive directors to just make sure that everybody understands what goes into the budget process. Greenleaf : If they have questions about things that they see would want to make sure that we're very transparent about just giving good information so that, that every single number in that budget is defendable. And and then for the DEI and belonging committee, they they're up and running. And you know, Lisa Brothers is doing a great job pulling that committee together and moving ahead on their goals. So I think that it's something it's an open committee, anyone can join, and it's a great way to, to participate in moving our organization towards being diverse and inclusive. And, and you know, for me, the word that really resonates is belonging, because that is if I was going to describe kind of why I've stayed in the organization for as many years as I have, it would be because of the sense of belonging I experience when I'm with fellow members. Greenleaf : The planning cabinet is hard at work on developing the metrics for the strategic plan. And we have a meeting in August that I'm thinking is still going to be an in-person meeting to go through each of the subcommittees. You know, they all, they went through each of the five pieces of the strategic plan, and there's a group working on each one on what, what are the metrics for success to be able to know that the plan is working as it should. And we'll probably take some of the research that comes out of that and pull it back to the budget and make sure that, that the entire strategic plan is financially supported, where it should be. Host: Yeah, that's something which I know that our team is working on as well, assisting with that metric building process, which is extremely important that you need to know what you're measuring, so you can actually get to success. And it's interesting going through that process of finding out exactly, you know, what, what, what can we measure, where, where do we need to build up our capabilities for measurement? You know, what are our targets for actually, you know, being able to check the box on some of these items, but to that point, I mean, throughout COVID throughout the pandemic of last year into, into, of course this year, implementing against that strategic plan has been still our, our focus here. It's been making sure that we're always pushing that ball forward. So it'll be interesting to see what that meeting this month, you know results in as far as moving forward. Greenleaf : Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Host: Now you are also taking this message to our members far and wide. You have been traveling a lot over the past couple of weeks and you have more scheduled. I know that most, I guess, most immediate you have the Summer Coalitions meeting, which is a Nashville in-person you're as a former coalitions leader, yourself, someone who has some very some very personal knowledge of the coalitions and its importance to ACEC, what are you hoping to, to tell them what are you hoping to to encourage them about when it comes to ACEC Coalitions? Greenleaf : So I was one of a few people back, and this was a long time ago. I, I need to look up and see when we got CAMEE up and running. And so my experience with, with the CAMEE Coalition, which is Coalition of American Mechanical and Electrical Engineers, is that there was a practice group that we always got together as a committee at the fall conferences. And there became this moment where it just coalesced into being something more. And we realized that if we had a more formal group with an executive committee and you know, our real mission that we could start moving our practice group into just greater value within the association. And I think that that's what all of the coalitions bring at this point. It's, it's something more than a committee it's why we feel that it's okay to be charged a small amount of dues to be a member, because there are products that are being developed. And they're very specific to each of the disciplines, whether it's contracts or kind of client evaluation tools, or self evaluation tools, they're all really, really helpful. And the message I want to deliver at the coalitions meeting next week is that yeah, I think ACEC across the board at the national level has recognized the value of the coalitions and really wants to support the work of all of them. Host: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's evidenced by our new Coalitions Director, Michelle Kroger. She came on, she is working on on an initiative for new members coming in of a, a year of free coalition membership, which is a great member benefit. Given the fact that, you know, number one is it's not a significant amount of, of, of investment money-wise to join a coalition, but the benefits you get from coalition membership are just so, you know, so outweigh whatever you spend to actually be part of it. As well as a new look we have kind of a new coalition logo and look, that's going along with them. We're trying to get a brand going that kind of establishes coalitions as its own entity within the ACEC family. And to get a little bit more of a, of a highlight there. So that's going to be very interesting again, it's great the fact that we actually meet in person back in Nashville and in next week really next week, Greenleaf : I think it's a week from today from today. I have to think I'm thinking back through where I've been going really.... Host: Recap for the audience where you've been so far, because again, you know, with all these travel issues going around airlines like American, just canceling every, every other flight, it seems you've been a trooper you've been, you've been really hitting the road. We're where have you been and what do you have coming up? Greenleaf : So I've already been to, I'm going to start with the townhouse. If I can put in a plug for the townhouse, then, then I'll get into the, the emo meetings. The townhouse is an incredible resource and having been there for at least half a dozen meetings with, with congresspeople at this point where you're in a small group setting, they walk in, they look around, they go, wow, this is great. And then they get to work with Dave Bender to schedule future meetings of their own, but you get an hour or sometimes more sitting in a very small group of people being able to talk about ACEC issues and agenda and how can they help us and how can we help them? And the conversations are just incredibly productive. And I think before I went down to the deep south conference, I was in Washington Monday through Wednesday of that week and had an opportunity to meet with Seth Moulton, who's a Congressmen from Massachusetts and on the T&I committee and hearing about you know, what, what he's hoping that this infrastructure bill will accomplish. Greenleaf : And we had a very, very small group of us meeting with Jim McGovern Congressman from Massachusetts as well. Who's Chair of the Rules Committee. And he may play a really key role in our PPP issue when it goes back to the house. So really good to spend some time with him. The next step on the tour was the Deep South Conference, and it was great to attend their Executive Committee meeting and hear what the issues are in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi Tennessee, Florida. And then I had the honor of doing their officer installation at lunch on the last day, which is a lot of fun. And it's a real pleasure. I just love doing that. And then I was home for a couple of days. Then I just got back from the ACEC North Carolina conference and know it's another great group of people. Greenleaf : And it's, it's wonderful to see people in person. It's great to be part of round tables and realize that that no matter where I go, I hear a lot of the same issues and people are really, I won't say struggling. That's not the right word, but front and center is the return to work issue for so many of our members and, and across the country, it's a lot of the same experiences. Let's see. Tomorrow. I am flying to Palm beach for the ACEC Florida conference. And then next week I'll be in Nashville for the Coalitions meeting and then off to Anchorage, Alaska to attend the ACEC Life Health Trust meeting, and then back for a couple of days, and then off to DPC and then planning cabinet. Then I'm taking a break. Host: That is, that is a schedule. So never, never wonder out there, if you're listening, what does the ACEC board chair do? Here's a good example of it. They go everywhere and they talk to everyone in the end, they learn firsthand, you know, what our member firms were experiencing the troubles that were or opportunities that they see ahead of them. And then working with the staff here to, to make sure they're addressed. I mean, this is, this is the, the, the, this is what you need the boots on the ground kind of conversations to really keep the Federation connected. Greenleaf : It's, it's really interesting. And one of the things I learned in North Carolina, which is different than my experience in my home state of Massachusetts, is that when the PPP loan program got put into place when they, when treasury made it tax deductible on the federal side, there's still a lot of states that didn't do similar legislation to make it tax deductible on the state side, Massachusetts, it was done here very quickly and that's great, but in North Carolina, that piece of legislation is stalled. So yeah, it's just great to be able to hear what the issues are. And yeah, I have a lot of empathy for, for the different experiences I'm hearing about, Host: You know, given what you've seen so far, what you've experienced, you know, when you were chair-elect during the height of the pandemic, really and you know, where we sit right now, you know, what's your overall feeling about where things are going and where's ACEC is going you know, what's your, what's your gut take confidence level of, of you know, right track, you know, what do you think? Greenleaf : I think ACEC is very much on the right track. I think that I'm hearing by and large, most firms are busy and have, have reasonable backlog. And their expectation is that 2021 is going to be a good year. I think there's still a lot of hesitancy on the return to work issue that I've already mentioned. I think that the resurgence of COVID pretty much across the country is giving people pause. And yet I'm hearing a lot of confidence that you know, if you've been vaccinated that you can still go travel, go visit people and, you know, continue to hold in-person meetings with, with some degree of caution. And so, yeah, and I'll put in a plug for our October meeting. I am not hearing, you know, I think, I think that you know, one thing that I saw recently is the DPC meeting is coming up and it will be an in-person meeting. I think that, that there is some caution that, you know, it's probably better to be vaccinated, to go attend in person, to keep everybody as healthy as possible. And, you know, and so when we do something like that for the October conference, I don't know, I think that's a pretty preliminary conversation, but probably worth. We're thinking about, so, and I'm not hearing any, any hesitance about not holding the conference Host: And we've been very - Mike and his team, the meetings team has been very clear with the hotel, the host hotel, the Marriott, to make sure that, you know, their health and safety standards are top-notch that, you know, the safety and the health of our guests and our attendees at the event is top of mind for us. And that's why we have it. We have a post of what Marriott's doing up on the fall conference page. It's something that we're continually monitoring. So, but I think you're absolutely right. You know, the numbers that we've seen when we've done some surveys, that the desire is there to come back and meet in person. And, you know, we're, we're working to put together a program that's going to make it worth your time. And I think that it's going to be great to get everyone together again, for all the great stuff that happens in fall. And, and to really, I think we learned a lot during the virtual events, that's actually gonna benefit going back in person and hosting the event in person. It's kind of a strange thing where having to move everything to a virtual environment kind of made us rethink some things. And, and, and, and I think it's going to translate back in person to, to an, even better to an even better event. So registration's open, I'll make a plug registration is open - acec.org. Greenleaf : You know, when you go to a conference and the two that have already been to the thing that is so different about in-person is, you know, I might hear somebody say something and I'm able to go walk up to them afterwards and say, hey, you mentioned this you know, about what you're doing with your office in your return to work strategy. And this is what I'm thinking about. And then you end up having a drink at the bar, just continue the conversation. You can't do that in a zoom setting. And those are the invaluable conversations. Host: Yeah, absolutely. Now, without question. So we're, we're hoping that everyone takes advantage of that both, you know, attendees, exhibitors alike. And and again, you know, registration is open up on acec.org. We invite you to go up and take a look and we're adding stuff to the schedule every week. And and we hope to see you there October. What else is going on? What do I guess, you know, I want to be respectful of your time. What other things would you like to make sure our audience knows, you know about what you're working on and what you're seeing ahead of us. Greenleaf : So I think one of the things that I'm becoming very aware of is there's been a lot of discussion about our research Institute. And when I was at the the deep south conference in their executive committee meeting, Daphne Bryant was there with us. She made a great presentation about the Institute and, and it's something that even, I didn't have a full enough appreciation for just what it brings to us as an organization. And one of the things that that came up was that through the Institute, we have the ability to really stay out in front of the organization with issues that they may not be on our radar screen yet, or they may just beginning to be. And so we've got a group of people that can go and find the experts to conduct really forward-thinking research for us. And what it does for us as an association is just adds this extra bandwidth to what we do. And I think that, that I, that's the way I think of the Institute at that at this point, it's not even frosting on the cake. It's just having this ability to look ahead. And, and then what we do is use that research to help prepare our members for what may be coming that we haven't really thought through yet. Host: No, absolutely. I think the the research they did initially on the economic modeling, the profiling and the contribution report has been extremely helpful. We were able to take that and apply that to the infrastructure bill. So as you notice, everything that we put out, even on social media, and we encourage everyone who is meeting with Members of Congress to do the same is to talk about that economic benefit, because now we have the numbers to prove it. We can say that the bipartisan bill would add 82,000 new jobs in our sector of the economy. However, thanks to the work of the ACEC Research Institute, we know that for every new engineering job created, two more are added in roles that support or benefit from engineering. That means a total of 246,000 new jobs will be added to the economy over six years. Now we can talk about GDP contribution. We can talk about the addition of $62 billion in A/E industry wages, actual numbers that can serve as the foundation for any argument we make on the benefits of investing in engineering. And then of course the research that they have upcoming that they're going to be there, there, there are a number of pieces of research that are in development right now, which we, we do feel that are going to be very beneficial to our members from the Institute. Greenleaf : It's all great stuff. Host: And yeah, so there was a lot happening. This is an exciting time to be chair, I hope. And, and you're making the most out of it. So that's, that's the important thing and, and, you know safe travels on your, on your trips ahead. It's going to be a busy time. You're going to pretty much crisscross the lower 48, and then you're going to head over to Alaska for the life health trust meetings. So that's, that's something that's something in itself. But we do appreciate you taking the time today, Robin, thank you very much for joining us. Greenleaf : I'm happy to be here, Jeff, thank you for the opportunity. Host: Anytime. And again, this has been another episode of Engineering Influence podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. We'll see you next time.

A Look at the Renewable Energy Sector with Deloitte's Marlene Motkya

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 14, 2021 24:03

Marlene Motyka, who is the U.S. and Global Renewable Energy Leader at Deloitte, joined us on the Engineering Influence podcast to discuss her firm's recently released 2021 Renewable Energy Outlook report. Motyka authored the report, which highlights several trends that point towards huge growth in the sector.Click here to download Deloitte's 2021 Renewable Energy Outlook report.Click here to download Deloitte's Utility Decarbonization Strategies study. Host:Welcome to the Engineering Influence podcast, brought to you by the American Council of Engineering Companies.The rapid expansion of renewable energy generation will be a pivotal factor in slowing climate change. Over the past few decades, solar and wind energy technologies and production have made tremendous advances, but we may be on the cusp of truly dynamic change.Deloitte recently released its 2021 Renewable Energy Outlook, which highlights several trends that point towards huge growth in the renewable energy sector. The author of that report, Marlene Motyka, who is the U.S. and Global Renewable Energy Leader at Deloitte, has joined us on the program to discuss the current state and future prospects for renewable energy.So let's get into it.There have been reports in recent months that solar and or wind generation have achieved cost parity with carbon-based generation. Is this true? And if so, what is the impact?Motyka:The answer to your first question is yes. Over the past decade as the Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE) has decreased over 70% for wind and 90% for utility-scale solar, these renewables have achieved cost parity with carbon-based generation across most of the world. And they've done so while also increasing technology efficiency and capacity factors. And these deep price declines and technology improvements are continuing. Really the impact is hard to overstate. Today it means that new wind and solar are more cost-effective to build than new fossil fuel plants and the LCOE ranges for solar photovoltaic or PV and onshore wind are below that of natural gas and below the cost of running many coal plants. And new-build renewables are also increasingly becoming competitive with the cost of running existing natural gas and nuclear plants and are on track to undercut them in the next few years.Motyka:So as a result, we think the energy transition is on the cusp of really rapid acceleration, even in states without renewable portfolio standards, because of the low cost resulting from market fundamentals and tax incentives. So we hear a lot about decarbonization and really what we're saying is it's affordable. And despite the pandemic and federal policy headwinds in 2020, renewable deployment was surging. U.S. PV capacity deployments hit record highs in 2020, and are expected to do the same in 2021. And onshore wind in 2020 also recorded the largest capacity additions since 2012, while offshore is really poised to take off in the coming years.Host:So to your point, that federal policy can have a big impact on the renewable energy market. In the year-end spending bill, Congress extended the tax credits for solar, wind, and other renewable energy technologies. How will that affect the market?Motyka:We got a year-end little treat here--we tend to sometimes have that with regard to these tax incentives for the renewable space--but really surpassing most industry expectations. The two-year extension of the 26% investment tax credit or ITC could provide a significant boost to the outlook for solar deployments as could the maintain 60% production tax credit for wind through the end of 2021 for onshore wind deployments. And the extensions may also provide the biggest boost to offshore wind starts, which are now eligible for a 30% ITC for projects that start construction before the end of 2025. So besides boosting solar and onshore and offshore wind deployments, these extensions could also ease concerns about missing deadlines due to pandemic related supply chain disruptions that happened in 2020 and also provide additional certainty for investments in domestic manufacturing and recycling as well as port facilities for the nascent offshore wind industry in the U.S. On top of that, the stimulus package had additional billions of dollars for funding for renewable R&D and grid modernization, and that could really help accelerate technology innovation and the deployment of hybrid platforms that include emerging renewables, such as marine power, as well as emerging storage technologies.Host:The Biden Administration has expressed its intention to support renewable energy. Is that going to have an impact over the next few years?Motyka:There's been a lot of buzz about this topic, and with the Democratic Senate and House control, the Biden Administration will have a window of opportunity to really usher in some ambitious clean energy legislation. They don't have a filibuster-proof majority, so the Administration may need to integrate its decarbonization and clean energy targets into a broader infrastructure stimulus package, but the Congressional Review Act and simple majorities will allow for reversals of many of the previous administration's regulatory rollbacks, executive decisions to streamline permitting and provide regulatory support for renewables, creation of a clean energy standard, establishment of a new Green Bank, and as most people may be aware, the U.S. rejoining the Paris Accord. In any case, I think the Biden Administration's commitment to decarbonization is going to really turbocharge the cost, customer, and sub-federal forces that have really been driving clean energy investment and deployment over the past four years.Motyka:I think another thing to point out is the Biden Administration's appointment of a Democratic chair for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) would also have a significant impact on the power sector's decarbonization by 2035. A shift in FERC could brighten the prospects for rulings supportive of clean energy resources, ability to clear energy markets, and states seeking greater deployment of renewables. It could also facilitate the buildout of transmission that really will be needed to integrate higher shares of renewables on the grid. And finally, FERC will be key to reshaping electricity markets to ensure resource adequacy, grid, reliability, and limited price volatility, amid the planned rapid increase of renewable penetration and the corresponding fossil fuel plant retirementsHost:In your report, you highlight the increasing size of offshore wind turbines, up to about 14 megawatts. Can we expect to see ongoing technological advances in both solar and wind to make them even more cost-competitive?Motyka:Yes, I think we can. While solar and wind are already both mature technologies, we can expect to see ongoing technological advances that will make them even more cost-competitive. When we look at solar, bifacial solar recently achieved cost competitiveness with single-side solar modules and could soon overtake them. And there's also optimization of tilt angles and ground reflectants that are expected to further drive costs down.Motyka:Second, new materials that can absorb a broader range of solar spectrum could push efficiency past the upper bounds for silicon cells. And these include silicon cells layered with perovskite, which are nearing commercialization, and other cells using multiple non-silicon materials. In addition, there are innovative inverter technologies that are enabling more flexible grid, enhanced deployments of solar power.Motyka:Third, I'd like to point out California's new home solar requirements, which are driving innovation and partnership between solar developers, builders, and roofers to commercialize building-integrated PV that really hits the sweet spot between efficiency, affordability, and aesthetics.Motyka:And then on the wind side, you know, the wind industry really hasn't hit a point of diminishing returns yet on increased scale. And you mentioned 14-megawatt turbines, so with wind bigger really is better. And with larger turbines, you're able to really drive down manufacturing and maintenance costs, but at the same time increasing revenue, and there's been a lot of material innovation, which is continuing to enable these larger turbines. And then also we have floating wind technologies that are maturing and becoming increasingly competitiveHost:And touching on floating wind technologies. What can we expect in that arena?Motyka:That's really exciting. So just briefly, floating offshore wind uses semi-submerged structures that are tethered to the seabed rather than fixed to it with foundations. And the advantage of floating offshore wind plants is that they can be deployed at depths beyond the 165-foot limit for fixed foundation offshore wind. Most offshore wind resources are actually located beyond this point, including much on the West Coast. The ability to deploy floating offshore wind opens much more generation capacity for the U.S. And also deployment and deeper waters further from the shoreline could also yield higher capacity factors. Another advantage of floating wind platforms is that they could host other technologies. Currently, developers are exploring enhanced structures that could lower costs via hybridization of floating platforms with complementary tidal wave and ocean thermal energy generation, as well as floating solar generation. So a lot of exciting things happening there.Host:Another area that sounds pretty exciting is hydrogen and power-to-x. In your report, you did a pretty deep dive into that. What does this bode for the future?Motyka:Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion about hybrid hydrogen. It's really kind of just popped up, I would say, in the last year in full force. Hydrogen and power-to-x technologies are going to play a significant role in closing the last 20% of the decarbonization gap, which we expect around the 2040 timeline. That's when heating and industrial sectors are really expected to transition away from natural gas, and the transportation sector to transition away from oil. So they're expected to increasingly refuel with electricity. For example, you'll see heat pumps replacing gas furnaces in buildings and advanced electrothermal technologies replacing gas in industrial processes. And in areas where electrification is least feasible, green hydrogen is one of the only solutions right now that can help decarbonization of all the remaining hard to abate sectors, from heavy industry to long-haul transportation.Motyka:Green hydrogen is also one of the few solutions to renewable integration challenges at high levels of penetration. So when we think about renewable penetration that's needed to cross that last 20% threshold, there's going to be integration challenges that are much greater for renewables. So significant overbuild and curtailment of renewables may occur without large-scale seasonal storage to capture excess renewable production, which can be used when renewable production drops off for long periods of time. And hydrogen could seasonally store renewables in liquid, gas, and chemical conform and convert that back to power when needed. There are really no commercially operational hydrogen power plants in the world yet, but utilities are looking to cost-effectively start retrofitting some gas plants to partially or fully run on hydrogen. Also, islanded green hydrogen can support an energy system as greater economy-wide electrification strains grid capacity.Motyka:So we talked about offshore wind and as deployment increasingly moves offshore and into deeper water, hydrogen pipelines could supplement high voltage transmission to bring the energy onshore and might really be the most cost-effective energy carrier in areas where there is high grid congestion, such as along some of the East coast. And just last weekend, the European Commission granted a consortium, which is being led by Orsted, 5 million euros to help develop desalinization and electrolysis systems for an offshore wind deployment to produce green hydrogen. So that's really exciting. And I think there's a lot of interesting things to come with hydrogen and with renewables supporting green hydrogen.Host:One of the challenges has been that solar only works when the sun shining and as such a lot of focus has been on storage. It has been considered to be the missing link for the expansion of renewable energy. Where are we with storage right now?Motyka:Yeah, I think there's been a lot of evolution, but there's more to come here. And the surge of renewables on the grid required to reach the decarbonization goals that we're seeing being set will require energy storage. And that will allow for system flexibility. But the capacity of storage is going to need to grow exponentially from where it currently is to support the record levels of renewable deployment we expect.Motyka:And when we look at current energy storage deployment, there are dominated by two technologies. The first is electrochemical lithium-ion battery technology and mechanical Pumped Hydro Storage (PHS). And these two technologies in some ways are kind of at the opposite ends of the spectrum when you look at energy storage options. So on the one hand, you have dynamic lithium-ion battery technology, which can competitively provide four-hour storage almost anywhere and is experiencing rapidly falling cost, increasing density, and other material and chemical advances, so that's great. But, meanwhile Pumped Hydro Storage is a long-standing, but geographically constrained, technology with higher stable costs that's recently seen an uptick in deployment as it can provide longer duration storage. And sub-sea PHS is a new frontier that some offshore wind developers are starting to explore.Motyka:But in between these two types of energy storage technologies are a host of evolving mechanical and battery storage technologies offering hourly, intra-day, inter-day, and even weekly storage. This will help support the grid in many different ways, but I think a key is that we have to see the opening of additional revenue streams to support the use cases of energy storage. So energy storage can be responsible for primary response. It can be used for energy arbitrage, peaker replacement, secondary response, and even support distribution and transmission deferral, but to really help accelerate the deployment of these storage technologies, we need the markets to compensate these technologies for the value that they're adding to the grid,Host:On that, how does that happen? How do you expect the market to compensate?Motyka:Well, the FERC is going to be key to that. They've set out some guidelines that talk to us about the Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs) needing to create structures and pricing signals that will allow battery storage and other types of distributed energy resources to be compensated for the services they add. And it will take time for this to unroll, but we expect this to continue to evolve. And as I mentioned earlier with the fact that the Biden Administration can put a Democrat in place to lead FERC, we think that will continue to support the rollout of these technologiesHost:Looking farther into the future, in 2019 renewables accounted for about 17.6% of U.S. power generation. Where do you see that number going over the coming years?Motyka:I think there's interesting times to come here. When we look at this combination of plummeting cost, technology innovation, government, and utility targets, corporate and citizen demand for renewables, the ITC and PTC extensions that I mentioned earlier, and the new administration, we're really going to see unprecedented, renewable investment and growth, because everybody's going to be moving towards this common goal to fully decarbonize the economy by 2050, and the targets that are going to be required to meet those goals are going to result in record annual deployments of wind and solar because that's really going to be the bulk of U.S generation that's going to be built by mid-century.Motyka:Deloitte recently issued a report on utility decarbonization. And we said in that study without other decarbonization solutions, these renewables would need to be able to meet three to eight-times peak demand to ensure adequate generation when the sun and wind resources availability is at its lowest, even with storage in the mix, and total capacity additions may need to surpass total existing generation capacity to make up for the coal share that needs to be replaced as well as planned and retiring natural gas.Motyka:And I do want to point out that over 280 companies across the globe have pledged to have 100% of their electricity from renewable energy sources no later than 2050. So all of this is coming together and I think to sum it up, I see very large growth in renewables in the coming years and in the longer term as well.Host:And finally, funding is moving into renewable energy with funding coming from large oil and gas producers. Does this mark a turning point for the renewable energy market?Motyka:You pointed out oil and gas companies and we see them being poised to leverage their deep expertise in offshore environments and bring that to the U.S. Offshore wind industry, which is really just starting to evolve and grow. This could provide them relatively stable revenues, but also lower their carbon footprints. And we think also oil companies could be well-positioned to hybridize offshore wind projects with green hydrogen production. And this could be a new industry area for the oil industry to leverage their existing expertise. But with the broad goals from the Biden Administration related to clean technology and decarbonization of the economy, I think there's an expectation that investment in the renewable sector will increase and attract new players across the globe with a variety of different backgrounds and coming from different industry sectors. So I think no doubt, there's going to be some really interesting times ahead, and this is going to be a very interesting industry sector.Host:You sound pretty optimistic about it. I would sayMotyka:I do. I'm very excited.Host:That's great and that's a great place to stop. I appreciate your taking the time to speak with us.Motyka:Thank you very much. I appreciate the time.

Discussing Embodied Carbon Solutions with Walter P Moore's Dirk Kestner

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 22, 2020 16:44

Dirk Kestner, who is Director of Sustainable Design and a principal at Walter P Moore, came on the program to discuss his firm's recent report Embodied Carbon: A Clearer View of Carbon Emissions and to talk about how the A/E/C community can account for embodied carbon in their design and construction decisions.Click here to view the report.Host:Welcome to the Engineering Influence podcast sponsored by the ACEC Life/Health Trust. Today, we are talking with Dirk Kestner who is Director of Sustainable Design and a principal at Walter P Moore. The firm recently released a comprehensive report titled Embodied Carbon: A Clearer View of Carbon Emissions. Embodied carbon emissions occur before a building opens as opposed to operational emissions that happen over a building's lifespan. They include carbon emissions associated with extracting, processing, shipping, installing, and maintaining the materials used in the building. The UN Environment Global Status Report predicts that during the next 40 years, we will build 2.5 trillion square feet of new building stock, which is equivalent to replicating New York City every month for 40 years. To reach the greenhouse gas targets set by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, we must significantly reduce the embodied carbon of buildings constructed during the next 10 years and reach net-zero embodied and operational carbon soon after. The report outlines how complex getting to net-zero carbon will be, requiring a multi-pronged approach: a combination of design optimization, enabling dematerialization, decarbonization of the electrical grid, material impact optimization, and the inclusion of carbon sequestering structural solutions. So let's dive into it.Host:In your report, you write, "We must transition our design thinking from a linear approach where the end goal is the building to a circular approach where buildings are thought of as material banks for the future. The simplest way to reduce embodied carbon is to use less--either at the building scale or the materials scale. You add, though, that current design practice is to optimize based largely, if not exclusively, on the cost and time of construction. How do we change that mindset?Kestner:Well, thank you. Time and cost, in terms of dollars, will always matter and be very important. But what we're increasingly aware of is that are there these externalities that we need to capture and roll into this. We've seen some of that in the use of third-party rating systems, such as LEED or Envision or Living Building, where these elements that aren't classically captured--the environmental impacts that occur--are baked into the point structure or the part of the rating system, or even in the case of the Living Building rating system, where you actually do quantify your embodied carbon and then have to offset it through a series of pre-vetted offsets and pay a dollar amount to offset it. But we're also seeing some companies that are internally carrying a price for embodied carbon, that are asking for a team to look at the operational and embodied carbon, and then as they make their decision making processes, they're weighing that. And there are a few jurisdictions, and I think increasingly we'll see more that will carry a cost as well. Some of this mindset shift also relates to how we make some of these decisions that we've historically done, where we do think about economy in one way. Something as simple as concrete and formwork, where the labor costs of making different forms may have added more dollar costs historically, but now we could price the difference in terms of carbon of that added material and see how that changes the equation.Host:You address, the incredible complexity of identifying and quantifying embedded carbon in the building process. You write, "We are tackling a diabolical problem in a compressed timeframe. As with many engineering tasks, quantifying embodied carbon involves working with uncertain data. And in the case of embodied carbon uncertainty in these measurements stems from a variety of sources: material volume assumptions, using industry averages and different methodologies for developing impact factors, to name a few." How accurate can you be today? How accurate do you need to be? And looking forward, how accurate do you expect to be?Kestner:Right now? It's very hard to say that an estimate of embodied carbon in terms of kilograms of CO2 is within a certain percentage of "true embodied carbon." However, there are two things that are very important that we can do and where the imperfect assessments are very helpful right now. They can be directional and they will show us where the hotspots in our structures or buildings or infrastructure are. So with these current assessments and we can use comparative analysis and run different data sets through to bound it and come up with ranges, we're able to know enough to be able to take action and to ask questions about how we could optimize. Now in the future, we'll have to be far more accurate and we can prime the pump for that today by working with the ISO standards for life cycle assessment and the product category rules, the environmental product declarations, making sure that suppliers know that we will be asking for this and that we're working to enhance the framework for data consistency and transparency so that we will be able to make better comparisons in the future.Host:On that point there, what role does the engineer in a design team working with an owner have in setting standards for suppliers?Kestner:I guess it depends on how the engineer views their role at some level, the engineer as a specifier. Every engineer will not. But because we understand the importance of making these comparisons, we need to be part of shaping that ecosystem, if you will, of data collection and how to act on the data. But I could see that being debated with an engineer saying, "What's in my scope or what's not."Host:You highlight the strategy of dealing with the biggest embedded emitters first, and the biggest is concrete. You write that "Manufacturing concrete is an extremely carbon-intensive process that accounts for 4.4 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually, or 8% of the world's total global carbon emissions each year, making it the world's second-largest CO2 emitter. The first step to reducing the carbon impact of concrete that should be done on every project, every time is to optimize Portland Cement usage." Another big opportunity though is reducing the amount of cement in concrete. You highlight some current cement alternatives, such as fly ash. Looking into the future, what advances do you expect in this area?Kestner:The area where we see the most advancement is in that binder--the glue that holds the rock together in concrete. And we're seeing some very interesting research right now at the university and academic level related to organic processes that can lead to compounds that can hold the rock together and perhaps even sequester CO2 in the process. While we see that in the long term and in the future, there's a number of steps that should be taken today as far as concrete, as far as optimization, that we don't need to wait for. And some of this relates back to some really basic steps, such as making sure that we are using performance specifications appropriately, minimizing the use of prescriptive specifications, having environmental performance specific specifications for concrete, as well as making sure that we're having deep dialogues with all members of the construction team, including the ready-mix supplier, about what is driving the cement content of the concrete today--whether it's a requirement that's put on by the specifying engineer, one related to achieving construction or pumping or something like that, or something related to the local aggregate that's available. There's also a lot of innovation going on within the manufacture of cement, such, uh, Portland limestone cements, or other cements that are still cement, but are less carbon-intensive.Host:Steel is another primary construction material. And it has a different problem because much of the carbon emissions are due to its high reliance on electricity to transform the raw material into its structural form. You say that we can expect some relief due to the projected increase in renewable resources in our electrical generation, from 18% in 2018 to 31% of generation by 2050. Are there other near-term ways to reduce the impact of the electrical grid on the embedded carbon in our building?Kestner:Yes, there's a great opportunity for materials that consume a lot of electricity in their manufacture. And that is that we know how to make renewable energy, and it can be a matter of incentivizing and understanding how suppliers who have these electrical intensive materials can drive the market to supply more renewable energy. One of the best ways that a specifier could do that is to ask for embodied carbon information in the form of an EPD from suppliers of these materials. If, then, it's the case that a large portion of their impact is tied to the electricity that goes into their product, that gives them a very straightforward, though not necessarily easy, way to reduce the embodied carbon of that material. So as specifiers, we don't have to wait for the grid to decarbonize over time; we can play a part in creating an incentive for that.Host:You dedicate quite a bit of space in the report to reuse. Obviously reusing a building, rather than building a new one, will substantially reduce the embodied carbon--as well as offer opportunities to improve the operational carbon performance of that building. But you also point to reusing materials that have already been made. For example, you report that construction and demolition waste represents approximately 40% of everything thrown away in the U.S. each year, and that most of that material could have been recycled or reused, but many regions don't have the infrastructure--and I might add the incentive--to effectively reuse. How do we get there?Kestner:Some of this comes back to where we started our conversation, with the externalities, and making sure we carry the cost of that material that would go into the landfill and is not reused to show teams and show owners that there can be latent value in those materials. In some ways, as we start to design buildings for deconstruction, and we think about an existing building not just as a building, but as a material bank or something where there is a carried value, that will help. And we can help as we document buildings to show how they are able to be deconstructed and to let the owner understand that there's value there. But the other part is making sure that we have an infrastructure and a supply chain to make those connections for that material that right now goes into the landfill. To show that once you're able to understand what's there, to understand where it might go, that there's a pathway, and that someone who's looking for this material can use it.Kestner:So that creates value in that material. But sometimes it's as simple as having a warehouse or having a space for that material to sit, just because it can take time from when it comes out of the building to when it would go into the next one. A great example of that, that's highlighted in the report, is our involvement in the Life Cycle Building Center in Atlanta, a nonprofit, but where a group of designers came together based on occurrences and shortcomings of future projects and identifying that need in past projects to be able to have a space and make those connections from a material that was coming out of one building and could go into the next.Host:Materials that can store carbon dioxide will be a key to offsetting the emissions from the other materials in buildings. Timber is the most obvious structural material that can sequester carbon dioxide. Although you make the essential point in the report that we must consider not only the carbon sequestration of the wood, but also the impacts that come from harvesting, milling, and shipping this product, given the importance of carbon sequestrating materials for achieving net-zero, do we start using more wood construction? And are there other sequestrating materials available now, or that you expect to come available in the future?Kestner:I do believe that with the advent of technologies like cross-laminated timber, we will continue to see timber construction in ways and locations that we historically had not. But it's also very important to remember, as you correctly mentioned, that even for timber construction, there's a number of steps along the supply chain where we are emitting CO2. So the act of measuring the total CO2 for the project, and then looking at what's causing the CO2 emissions, even in that timber building, and how we can make those reductions is very, very important. When we look at some of the mass timber buildings that we're currently designing, every floor has 2-1/2 to 3 inches of concrete on it. So it's important as we are using the timber to store CO2, that we're also thinking about the emissions from those other materials. There's some very interesting research going on on other living and sequestering materials at the Living Materials Laboratory at CU Boulder, with Wil Srubar. They're looking not only at things like cellulose=based composites, but biopolymers and biogenic cements, so that we could have sequestration, not only in timber, but in all those other materials that we use in construction.Host:Finally, at the beginning of your report, you referenced the World Green Building Council's report, which is called Bringing Embodied Carbon Upfront, in which, and I'm quoting here, "They embraced a bold vision that by 2050 new buildings, infrastructure and renovations will have zero-net embodied carbon, and all buildings, including existing buildings, must be net-zero operational carbon. How optimistic are you about achieving that?Kestner:I'm optimistic. It's a bold vision, and it may seem quite aggressive right now, but I'm also always amazed at what we can accomplish when we get a bunch of smart engineers together, working on an identified problem. It really has only been the past couple of years, perhaps two years, that we've seen broad awareness of embodied carbon in the A/E/C space. And we're seeing a number of different technologies that are emerging to address this. And we're also seeing teams go back, and by studying and measuring embodied carbon and having this as a metric that we're looking at, challenge past assumptions. So I'm optimistic, and I think it will be a combination of both rethinking some very classic things we do, as well as some new technologies that will be developed.Host:Great. That's a happy way to end. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk with us today.Kestner:Thank you for the opportunity.

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Looking into the Future of the Office Market

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 13, 2020 17:20

Carl Shilling, a principal at Stantec, joins the Engineering Influence podcast, to share his thoughts on the current state of the office market sector and how it may change going forward. Host:Welcome to the Engineering Influence podcast sponsored by the ACC Life/ Health Trust. One of the biggest business impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic has been the transition to working at home for many professional and office workers. In many downtowns and suburbs, offices are dark and empty. Not surprisingly. This situation has raised questions about the concept of the office. Many pundits have speculated that our traditional views on the office must change and that remote work will play an increasingly large role, maybe even a major role in the future. Others promote the benefits of the office, collaboration, teamwork, efficiency, and argue that once the pandemic has abated, we will return to the office. This is an important discussion for the engineering industry and for firms that work in the office space. To discuss these issues and more, we're here with Carl Shilling, a Stantec. He has a principal based in the firm's Butler, Pennsylvania office, and has more than two decades of experience focusing on the sustainability of the built environment. Carl, welcome.Shilling:Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.Host:So in the initial days and weeks of the pandemic, many companies shut down their offices, and employees began working virtually. Assuming that we eventually have a vaccine for the virus,. do you expect the virtual work environment to perpetuate, will we return to the old normal, or will we find something in between?Shilling:We, like many companies, vacated our offices and performed our business remotely. And I will admit, I did not expect it to work as well as it has. The technology has come through. We've been very successful in conducting our business virtually through, like the interview today, Zoom meetings, Team meetings, and others. They have worked very well, but as you're asking, as we're thinking ourselves: What do the next couple months mean? What does the next year mean? How are we going to conduct business in the future? Beyond our personal experience, we have also polled a lot of our clients--over 130 of them actually--to get their perception on what they think is going to happen in the future, so that we can position ourselves to design appropriate space. What we found is that although it's been successful, we're missing the human component. So we're hoping that beyond today, tomorrow that there's still going to be some interaction within the office, whether that's two days a week, three days a week. But people have learned that they can be effective from home, so what we used to be considered a luxury--being able to work from home--is now going to be considered the norm. So I think there's going to be an expectation that we still need the office space where we can go in and collaborate and understand our partners, their in-person reactions to real-life situations, but we also understand that we can be effective from home. And there are some advantages to being home with our spouses or wives or children and conducting business from there. So what we're expecting is that, yes, there's still going to be a demand for office space, but that workers probably won't be coming back five days a week 40 hours like they did prior to the coronavirus situation.Host:So, as an office designer, as an engineer, what does that mean in office design? Is this going to change it?Shilling:It will. One of the questions that's paramount is do you need the same amount of square footage or space to conduct business that you did prior to entering the pandemic? And what we're coming back with is that the dedicated office space that people are used to having, your cubicle, wherever you do your work, is probably going to change because typically it does not provide the right amount of separation or distancing from coworkers. But if we go into design and expect to be able to provide that, maybe the same amount of square footage works, but we have to reconfigure it so that it still promotes interaction between coworkers. We may need to spread out so fewer people are going to be in the office at any given time. Or it's going to take a larger square footage to accomplish the same thing.Host:In your conversations with your clients, what are their concerns?Shilling:It's kind of the same thing. How do I get my people into the office safely? How do they interact safely while they're there? We've all been out shopping in the meantime during the pandemic and you see one-way aisles. You see limitations of where we can't all go in at the same time. I think that's what we're going to see. You may go into the office, but you have to enter at multiple points so there isn't a large grouping of people at any one location. When you get into the office, there might be direction, it's probably not going to be arrows on the floor, but there's probably going to be within the design, elements to encourage people to not all go the same way or congregate in the same place.Shilling:You're probably going to see people spread out a little more than what you see in today's office, but there are still going to be spaces where you can interact with each other and do your work, There's probably also going to be additional technology within those spaces so that your coworkers and staff that aren't in the office at the time can log in or dial and be a part of the team, whether they're there personally or not.Host:You mentioned retail as one area that you can take some lessons from. This is a unique situation. So where have you looked for guidance to make design decisions on health and safety concerns?Shilling:I mentioned that we do multiple types of buildings and one of them is health care and doing that kind of design has given us a lot of direction on whether the virus is transmitted through the air or is it mainly a contact risk.Shilling:Those kinds of things really go across building types. It's not necessarily just indicative of the office environment. And so the first thing, the biggest risk, is proximity to your coworkers. Now we've heard about six- feet distancing. But given the particle size that you put off wearing a mask, does the mask stop it? As the particles dry, do they float longer than a couple of hours? So we're thinking about these issues between workers. We're thinking about how it is distributed by the air handling systems. There' are many aspects as to how do we keep people safe,Host:Focusing on HVAC, what changes do you expect to see in HVAC going forward?Shilling:The first thing is ventilation. There are three main bullet points and the first one is ventilation. The minimum that we have to think about is, do the systems within the building provide the minimum ventilation rates required by current code, whether that's the International Mechanical Code, whether that's ASHRAE 62, but a lot of office spaces, for energy efficiency reasons have reduced the amount of outside air, have chosen not to do it when they're not there in off-hours, but I think there's a general understanding out there now that we need to continually ventilate the spaces we're in. The benefit to the personnel outweighs the energy demand on the building.Shilling:Number two is filtration. Typical filtration for office environments is like a MERV-6 six, 25-30 percent. I think there's an understanding out there that can the particle sizes that we're dealing with be captured by a filter? It can. We're all wearing masks, right? So masks aren't really a very high particulate filter, but the virus lives in things that are larger, like water drops or things like that. The same thing applies to HVAC systems where if we put higher efficiency filters in, there is a benefit to the office environment. The parallel argument with that is I'm going to need more horsepower and fans to push the air through the higher efficiency filters. So there is an efficiency offset with putting in higher efficiency filters. I'm going to use more energy to do that.Shilling:Lastly, there are lots of products coming to market that we all trust, that we've been using, that have a benefit with combatting the virus, whether it is additional filtration, HEPA filtration, whether it's UV lighting, whether it's a technology like bipolar ionization. These are all things we need to have in our toolkit and our approach to making spaces safer that we can employ to respond to the demand that's out there.Host:In many office buildings, one choke point would be the elevator because you have to get people up upstairs and the elevator is by its nature, a confined space. What do you see happening with elevators?Shilling:I've seen a raft of things coming to light. And again, it's are you dealing with an existing situation or are you dealing with a new design? The most creative thing that I've heard reported to me, and it was experienced by one of our own employees visiting a client site was they entered an elevator. And it was an existing elevator. It was a small facility. The owner had attached a sponge to the wall and put a bunch of toothpicks in the sponge. And whenever you entered the elevator, you were to pick a toothpick and use that to push the button.Shilling:That was a very low dollar, very innovative solution to be as safe as they could with what they had. On the other end of the spectrum is we're designing new elevators. There are all kinds of new control technologies out there where instead of going to the elevator lobby and entering an elevator and pushing a conventional button, before you even get to the lobby, there's a panel where you can enter where you want to go. That panel then looks at where are the elevators in the building are, directs you to a specific one, and controls how many participants are in that elevator. That particular car delivers you to the floor without ever having to touch anything within the elevator itself. So there is a lot of technology coming out to address that situation. But we have a whole lot of existing elevators that we're going to have to be creative with. What are we going to do for those specific cases?Host:The economic forecasts for the office market are pretty bleak right now. What opportunities does Stantec see?Shilling:Again, communicating with our clients, there's a lot of waiting to see what happens. I will say that when I left the office back at the beginning of the year, I never expected that we would be gone this long. It has perpetuated far longer than I ever expected.Shilling:I think everybody's in a holding pattern to see where this is going. Is there going to be an additional infection rate here in the fall? As the weather gets colder and the humidity level drops, are we all going to be more susceptible to the virus? I think it's going to be another six months of what we're seeing, but I really think that there is a real desire for offices to open back up and for people to at least get back into the office in some way so that we can continue what we're doing. We're surviving just fine, but we are not thriving. We need to do additional things that we're not doing now, such as getting new people into the workforce. That isn't possible remotely like we're doing.Host:From an engineering perspective, is it going to more retrofit and renovation work in the office market in the short to mid-term?Shilling:I do. Yes. We're going to have to take a look at the existing systems. We're going to assess them. Are they bringing in any outside air or the right amount of outside air? We're going to look at whether all areas of the office have air distribution. Are there any dead spots?. I think we're going to look at whether existing air handling units can support additional filtration beyond where they're at right now. And then I think we're going to be looking at, can we apply things like UV lighting to sterilize the airflow? Can we employ things like bipolar ionization within the airstream to sterilize the airstream? Ionized hydrogen peroxide has onto the market that can be independent of the air handling system. There are devices that we can just hang on the wall to deliver these ions to the space, to clean the surfaces, to sterilize the air. There are many, many things out there that I think we can apply without spending a lot of money to make the space safer on a broader scale.Host:There's been a lot of talk that one of the impacts of the pandemic will be that the downtown business districts will shrink and the offices will move to the suburbs where there's less density. What is Stantec's view on that?Shilling:We're not seeing that. We're seeing that companies are still going to make the decision on where they want to locate their offices based upon serving their clients and where it makes the most sense for their office to be. I think what you're going to see is the opportunity for employees to choose whether to go into the office more or less independent of where the office happens to be located.Shilling:We are not seeing companies changing their business approach. Some of them are hub and spoke where the hub is within the city and the spokes are into the suburbs. Some, some companies choose to do work in the suburbs. That's where their clients are and where they interact. I don't think the specific office location is necessarily going to change. I think it's going to be focused on the ability to give their workforce the opportunity to say, "I'm going to be there all the time," or "I'm not going to be there all the time." And part of that is attracting new talent. The new generation of employees is going to demand the flexibility to say, "I'm going to work from home" or "I'm going to come into the office." And I think that's where companies will find success, in not necessarily changing the office location, but changing what they're asking their employees to do.Host:Great. That gives us some good insight into the office market. I appreciate your taking the time to speak with us.Shilling:I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

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3 Simple Ways to Get Back on Track with Mary Scott

Running on Kale

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 29, 2020 11:15

Hi, Mary here! Welcome to The Mental Struggles of Healthy Living Series!Why is creating change in our lives so challenging? Why is losing the weight so difficult? Why is it so tough to just go after our goals?If you face those struggles, you are far from alone. In this ongoing series on the Running on Kale Podcast, we will look at these issues as well as many more - and together - we will overcome them.Today we discuss part 2 of The Bad in Being Good episode. We are diving into How to Get Back on Track with any goal.Be sure to sign up to receive our emails so you can be alerted to future episodes as well as our other fantastic resources! "Being off track is an incredibly tough place to be. There can be so much shame and guilt involved. It takes a lot of courage to even attempt to lift that weight." - Mary Scott, Host You'll Learn on the Podcast How accepting that you are off track can move you forward How Mary overcomes the urge to swing by the drive thru on the way home How to build a support system when you feel isolated by your healthy choices That Mary seems to be quite hooked on burritos and burrito bowlsSubscribe and ReviewIf you enjoyed this show, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you have the latest techniques and action steps on how to transform your health. I don’t want you to miss an episode!If you’re feeling the love, I would also greatly appreciate a review so others can also find the podcast. I'll read every review, so thank you in advance! Let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!Transcript and Show NotesGo grab the transcript and show notes at https://runningonkale.com/15

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The Bad in Being Good with Mary Scott

Running on Kale

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 15, 2020 8:17

#013 - Hi, Mary here! Welcome to The Mental Struggles of Healthy Living Series!Why is creating change in our lives so challenging? Why is losing the weight so difficult? Why is it so tough to just go after our goals?If you face those struggles, you are far from alone. In this ongoing series on the Running on Kale Podcast, we will look at these issues as well as many more - and together - we will overcome them.Today we discuss one profound way you can change your mind and change your world.Be sure to sign up to receive our emails so you can be alerted to future episodes as well as our other fantastic resources!"We have to let go of the good and the bad and embrace the SIMPLICITY of either do, or don't" - Mary Scott, Host You'll Learn on the PodcastHow your internal dialogue about good vs bad can harm your progressHow making taking your choices too personally can open you up to seeking external validationHow to re-frame your thoughts to push you closer to a goal reaching growth mindsetSubscribe and ReviewIf you enjoyed this show, please subscribe to the podcast to make sure you have the latest techniques and action steps on how to transform your health. I don’t want you to miss an episode!If you’re feeling the love, I would also greatly appreciate a review so others can also find the podcast. I'll read every review, so thank you in advance! Let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!Transcript and Show NotesGo grab the transcript and show notes at https://runningonkale.com/13

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Mick Morrissey of Morrissey Goodale Looks at the M&A Market from the Seller's Side

V-Next: The Future is Now

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 1, 2020 27:42

Mick Morrissey, managing partner of Morrissey Goodale, visits the Engineering Influence podcast to analyze the current state of the M&A market and offer insights and advice to engineering firm owners who may be contemplating selling their firms. Sponsor Message:The ACAC Life Health Trust is offering free insurance comparison quotes for all ACEC Engineering Influence listeners. During these uncertain times, every dollar counts. And we want all our listeners to take advantage of this special offer. Typically our firm medical plans offer your employees lower insurance costs, better coverage, and complementary health and wellness benefits above our competitors. Visit our website at acclifehealthtrust.com or call our sales team at (844) 247-0020.Host:Welcome to the ACEC Engineering Influence podcast brought to you by the ACEC Life Health Trust. The mergers and acquisitions market has been very strong in the engineering industry in recent years with Baby Boom generation owners, looking to sell their firms and buyers looking for strategic purchases. Not surprisingly the COVID-19 pandemic had an impact on the M&A market due both to the initial, rapid deceleration of the economy and now the uncertainty that pervades the market as it recovers. To find out where the M&A market stands right now and where it may be going, especially for owners who are looking to sell., we have invited Mick Morrissey, managing partner of Morrissey Goodale onto the podcast. Morrissey Goodale is a specialized management consulting firm that exclusively serves the AA and government contract consulting industries and is one of the go-to advisors for buyers and sellers.Host:Welcome, Mick. Thanks for joining us,Morrissey:Thanks for having me on great to be here. All of us at Morrissey Goodale are big fans of the podcast.Host:So the M&A market for engineering firms took a dip in the spring when the pandemic hit, but it has gradually worked its way back up right now. Year-over-year deals in the U.S. are off about 10%. What do you expect to see in the market over the coming months?Morrissey:Let me put some context on that. It's a great question. 2019 was a record year for deals in our industry, 317 deals, almost one per workday, a pretty torrid pace of activity and, really speaking to how fast our industry was consolidating. January and February of 2020 were ahead of that pace, then COVID hit and the M&A market froze in the spring, March through May deals were down about 50% year over year. We were back to 2017 levels. Things started heating up a little bit in June and July, but still way behind last year. And then boom, in August of this year, M&A just started right up again. And indeed, we're going to have one of the strongest August on record for deals in the United States. Based upon everything that we're seeing in terms of interest from buyers, based upon the fact that the consulting engineering industry and the engineering industry writ large has been remarkably resilient through this pandemic, and then given that we anticipate some sort of stimulus package benefiting the industry after the election, we would anticipate that we're going to see lots more M&A activity and an uptick in M&A activity as we head into the back end of the year here in Q3 and Q4. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up the year very similar to where we were in 2019, which was a record year for deals, or maybe 5% or so beneath that level.Host:You mentioned, that the engineering industry has not suffered as badly as many other industries did. A guy who owns a firm and is looking to sell, is now a good time to sell?Morrissey:It depends. It depends on what markets your firm is in. Buyers are looking for quality. They're looking for growth in the acquisitions that they make. They were before the pandemic and that's certainly where they're focused now. So if a firm is serving, for example, the federal market, or if a firm has particular expertise, let's say in warehouse and distribution centers, both of those markets are doing well in 2020 and are anticipated to do well into 2021. This could indeed be a very, very good time in terms of valuation and deal structure for a seller that serves those markets. On the other hand, if you're a firm that is seeing a decline in backlog or weakening in earnings, and oftentimes today, those are firms that are serving, for example, the retail market or the commercial markets, this may not be the best time to go to market. It may not be the best time to seek a buyer.Host:What about size? Is this a good time if you own a smaller engineering firm or a larger engineering firm? Does That have any impact on the decision?Morrissey:Well, it's a really interesting question, because the trend we're seeing in acquisitions for consulting engineers is that the median-size deal has continued to fall over the last several years. Now the median-size deal is something like 15 to 17 employees with somewhere between $2 and $3 million in revenues. And that's a direct result of it being so hard to find talent in this industry and that challenge hasn't gone away with respect to COVID. While there may be 9% to 10% unemployment nationally, that unemployment level is not being felt in our industry. By and large, quality people in our industry aren't getting hired at the same rate that they were before, although maybe it's a little different in terms of onboarding and hiring now with most of it being done remotely, or a lot have been done remotely, but still, talent is very hard to find and that's what's driving acquisitions of smaller firms in our industry.Morrissey:And that's why the median deal size continues to fall because small acquisitions are a way to get talent on board fast, instead of going through a three-month to six-month to one-year cycle of picking up the equivalent number of employees. So I'm not sure that that size is a determinant with respect to whether it's a good time or a bad time to sell. I do think though that size and we saw this pre-pandemic and we're seeing it still that size correlates with valuation. So the larger a firm is, the greater the probability that it will achieve a higher valuation when it sells than a smaller firm.Morrissey:If you look back a decade or so ago, right after the last recession, about one-quarter of all deals in the United States were being done by publicly traded firms, the Jacobs and AECOMs. The brand names. Since the Great Recession, the percentage of deals being done by the publicly traded firms has dwindled to about 5% of all of the deals. Over the same time period, private equity-backed firms and private equity recapitalizations of firms engineering firms in the ENR 500 have grown significantly to the point where now about a quarter of all the deals. Now, what does that mean with respect to size? Those private equity groups typically are looking to make acquisitions of firms that are generating at least $1 million in EBITDA and more commonly $3 to 5 million in EBITDA. And that speaks to firms that are generating about $10 million to $50 million in revenues, which would speak to the larger firms in the membership of ACEC.Morrissey:So, um, I think the market is fairly agnostic believe it or not with respect to size. I think there's a market for each size segment with different types of buyers. Again, I come back to the determinant, particularly in 2020: What is the outlook for the markets that the selling firm is serving? Are the selling firms are serving markets that are being impacted by the shift in what's happening in the larger economy? If the firms are serving commercial real estate, or they're serving bricks and mortar retail, or they're serving, for example, the cruise industry or the hospitality industry, those firms, by and large, are seeing some significant or moderate impact to their backlog into their earnings. And they're just not attractive to buyers right now because buyers are looking for quality. But for firms that are serving the federal market, which is still going strong, for firms that are subject-matter experts in particular facility types where there's great demand, such as warehouse and distribution centers being driven by the Targets and the Amazons of the world, those firms are seeing demand. And particularly for firms that have figured out how to incorporate technology and big data management, or have developed proprietary software applications to wrap into their traditional engineering business model, those firms are seeing demand.Host:So if I were the owner of a firm and I was not in warehouses or data centers, what would be my strategy to make myself appealingMorrissey:That depends on what sort of runway you've got. From our perspective at Morrissey Goodale, the industry has entered the first phase of a new reality, and most firms have got about a year we believe to figure out that new reality because we believe there's going to be a lot of pain in 2021 as state and local governments face some real holes in their budgets. That'll put real downward pressure on the market for engineering services and put downward pressure on pricing and fees. So, firms need to reposition themselves from our perspective over the balance of 2020 and beyond. If you have a backlog to do that, then the way for firms to make themselves more attractive over the next year or so is to get into the markets that are more attractive.Morrissey:They either do that by making key hires or making acquisitions to do so, or they need to figure out how to deploy technology. And that's either generating it internally, leasing it, or buying it off the shelf, and then customizing it to adjust their business model, to really improve their technology game. Neither of those strategies are immediate strategies that can happen in a three to six-month period, so firms need to start making those investments now. For firms that only have 30 to 90-days worth of backlog, to make themselves more attractive for a buyer, they need to really cut out all extraneous costs, need to get themselves profitable, need to connect with their clients, and need to get as much backlog as they can in place.Morrissey:Those are the things that they need to do to position themselves for a sale, but even in that situation, and even if they do find a buyer, firms that are serving clients or markets that are being challenged are going to find it hard to find a buyer. Again, I come back to buyers being focused on quality. They're focused on the long term. And so they're planning to allocate their M&A resources to, to quality firms.Host:What about selling to insiders? Is that market slow right now? Has it stopped or is it continuing?Morrissey:It's continuing, although we believe it's going to run into headwinds into 2020 and 2021. If you look at 9 to 10% unemployment in the nation, there's a greater chance that, somebody's spouse or partner has either been furloughed, um, or has lost their job. So, if you're a potential owner in an engineering firm and your partner has lost their job, your kid is graduating from college and can't get a job because of a 9% unemployment rate and is stuck at home with you, then it's harder to have that kitchen table conversation and say, "Hey, I need to invest a hundred thousand dollars in my company to support the ownership, transition plan," because the money just may not be there.Morrissey:This is what we saw in the last recession. Ownership transition plans broke down in the industry, and we saw a spike of M&A activity 12 to 24 months after the recession as firms realized that they just weren't having the capital inflows from their employees and potential owners to support the plans while they were digging out from, uh, the wreckage of the recession. So we expect to see internal ownership transition plans be challenged again over the next 24 to 36 months as we come out of whatever we're in the middle of. And in particular, when we come out of the challenges after 2021, because again, we think that 2021 is going to be a real challenge for the industry.Host:So in this situation with, with the uncertainty, with the potential for a bad year coming up, how do you value a company? Are they the standard valuation techniques or is there some sort of percentage allocation for uncertainty?Morrissey:Yeah, that's a great question. And actually there should be some sort of percentage allocation for uncertainty, Valuation is one of those professions that has a hard time in pivoting to a new reality and it is pretty much stuck on the axiom that valuations of a firm are based upon forward-looking cash flows for the entity. In a time of great uncertainty, however, forward-looking cash flows become hard to forecast. Most firms in our industry have a hard time forecasting a year anyway and beyond a year becomes challenging. So when you look at valuations done in the industry, and you look at the projections that are used for those valuations, they make you scratch your head sometimes. And also when you consider that in the middle of the year, the publicly traded firms in our industry withdrew their guidance, meaning that they weren't going to provide estimates as to what was going to happen going forward.Morrissey:You can see how it makes it much harder for smaller privately held firms, which are the majority of the ACEC membership to do so. The way that valuation adjusts is, the valuation folks assign a higher discount rate, which just means they put more risk into the model, and that tends to drive down valuations. So that's sort of a theoretical perspective, but that's not necessarily what we have seen in the marketplace. My contention to our team was if deals are falling 50% in the spring, then let's figure out if valuations have also fallen 50%. And what we found was it wasn't the case. In the data set of deals that were done in the spring and the data set of deals that were done in the summer, the valuations are not that dissimilar from the valuations that we saw pre-pandemic, in January and February or in 2019.Morrissey:So what really happened was, instead of buyers beating up on sellers and looking for lower valuations as the pandemic played out, in the first stages, buyers just kind of withdrew. And so those valuations in theory went to zero, but in reality, they kind of stayed put, because many of those deals came back online in the summer. Also, when you're buying an engineering firm, the last thing you want to do is start with an evaluation and then if things change, try to beat up on the seller and say, "Things have changed, We're only going to buy it for 50% of what we said." That's just a lousy way to start a relationship and it really doesn't help integration.Morrissey:So what happened was the deals where buyers felt that there was quality, they stuck with those valuations through the deal-making process. Where there was uncertainty, about half of the deals in the U.S. stopped. They just stopped. Now the deals are coming back. What we've seen in the late summer, what we're seeing in August is those valuations are pretty much picking up where they left off prior to the pandemic. So, I urge everybody listening to the podcast to take these metrics with a grain of salt and don't apply them specifically to your individual firm, but what we saw at the high end and what we're still seeing at the high end, in the upper quartile, is multiples of EBITDA in and around the seven range, seven times trailing 12 months; EBITDA multiples in the medium range of about five or north of five; and multiples in the lower quartile of a little under four and a half. So we haven't seen the valuations change that much from a real-life perspective in the marketplace.Host:What do you think might happen to valuations if the market does struggle next year? Do you expect to see a gradual tailing off or do you think this trend will continue?Morrissey:So I think what we'll see is a bifurcation of the market, actually a continued bifurcation of the market. Quality firms--firms that have got really strong backlog, firms that have got something special about them, firms that serve attractive clientele, firms that are located in a great part of the world in terms of the outlook for engineering services, firms that have proprietary offerings that they have developed and where there is demand--those firms will continue to see strong demand and strong multiples and high multiples. Generic firms--firms that are vanilla firms that don't have anything special about them, firms that are followers rather than not leaders, firms that have to sell--they're either going to find lower multiples await them with not very attractive terms or they are going to find that there's no buyer for them. That's where I think we're headed and that's where that's the market that we're in now.Morrissey:In 2019, there were 317 deals. Not all of those firms were getting the higher multiple. Smaller firms tend to get the lower multiples. Smaller firms tend to have fewer options and may need to sell rather than choose to sell. And when you need to sell, when you have to sell that's when the deals that are in front of you generally are less attractive. And that gets to the interesting nature of selling your consulting engineering firm. The best time to sell is when the economy is doing well, when your market you're doing well, when your firm is doing well from a financial perspective, and to do it before you're 60, because then typically a buyer is going to lock you up for three years. And so at 63, which is still relatively young given all of the advances in healthcare and science, you've got two great decades ahead of you to decide if you want to work or consult or go and sail the Caribbean. Most owners don't figure that out. And most owners end up looking to sell when the economy is not good when their markets are not good, when their firm's financial performance is weak, and when they're 65 plus, and they have lost all of the leverage that they could have had in any negotiations,Host:That's a great lesson, right there, I'd say for people to listen to it because that seems to me to cut right to the heart of it. But just one more question and then we'll let you go. What kind of financial arrangements are you seeing as far as how the deals are structured?Morrissey:We're seeing the same basic packages as pre-pandemic. So cash, notes paid over one, two, or three years, stock, and earn-outs. Pre-pandemic we were seeing more cash, more notes, more stock, less earn-outs. Post pandemic, what we've seen is buyers moving more consideration to the earn-out component and moving it away from the guaranteed components of either cash or note payments over one, two, or three years. And that I think is just an acknowledgment that, the market is less certain for both buyers and sellers, and buyers are looking to hedge their bets with the amount of money that they guarantee in a deal.Host:Which, given the pandemic, sort of makes sense.Morrissey:Yeah, I think it does, but I also think, and this is what we saw again in the last recession, there's a whole bunch of received wisdom and conventional wisdom in our industry, and that has played out in the fact that M&A has declined over last year, which is not unusual. In general, when there's a recession or a pullback in the economy, M&A does decline, and indeed, M&A was down 19% in May and June year-over-year, but now it's back to just down 10% or so. But I think, when you dig into the details, once again more and more deals are being done by these private groups. So while employee-owned firms and ESOP firms have pulled back from the marketplace, the private equity firms are still buying because that's what they do. And if you consider a mantra of buy low and sell high, while the marketplace in general recognizes the pandemic and acts appropriately, and most of the ACEC membership acts conservatively, a number of these private equity groups, who are very, very skilled buyers, are seeing this as a buying opportunity and a way to position themselves ahead of the market recovery. And I think that's something for the membership and the listeners to be aware of.Host:It's a good place to end. I appreciate your taking the time to talk to us about the market. Thanks so much,Morrissey:Thanks for having me on, I really enjoyed it. Great to be with you.

The Convergence of Emerging Tech Enabling Digital Ecosystems - Part 1

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 1, 2020 45:18

In this episode I'm talking with Ryan Rugg from R3. She is responsible for the strategic direction of R3’s key verticals, Ryan is helping industry leaders capture the full benefits of digital ecosystems blockchain their businesses. Here in episode 26, “The Convergence of Emerging Tech Enabling Digital Ecosystems - Part 1” we will be talking about the shift to digital ecosystems, what they are, why they are different now, and the business models and technologies that are shaping them.You may of remembered us talking about this convergence effect on both the Blockchain in 2020 Trends episode of BlockTalk, but also you’ve heard this a theme in “Episode 20: Digitizing Pharmaceutical Supply Chains with Blockchain” automating the pharma supply chain. You will want to stick around for this one to dig a bit deeper on this one!As always, all the show notes and links will be provided on vnextpod.com. Show NotesAbout Ryan Welcome to the podcast Ryan!Host: Tell us a little bit about you. How did you get here? What’s your current role? Projects you’re currently working on?Ryan is the Global Head of the Industry business unit at the enterprise software firm, R3, she sits at the forefront of blockchain innovation across multiple industries. She is responsible for the strategic direction of R3’s key verticals, Ryan is helping industry leaders capture the full benefits of blockchain for their businesses. Testament to her efforts, R3’s blockchain platform Corda has fast become one of the most dominant blockchain platforms with many of the largest and most prominent global businesses building their applications on Corda. Ryan launched the Centre of Excellence for distributed ledger technology (DLT) in cooperation with ACORD (Association for Cooperative Operations Research and Development). The Centre of Excellence provides a dedicated environment for R3’s and ACORD’s members to research, design and deploy DLT applications that improve the efficiency of many insurance business segments – commercial and specialty insurance, life insurance, personal lines and health insurance, along with niche areas like marine and trade credit.Host: You work for R3, tell us about the company you work for.Host: Tell us something interesting about you either professionally or personally that people may not know about you. Blockchain-Enabled EcosystemsIn my Forbes article recently I describe Digital Ecosystems in this way:Digital ecosystems embrace the complexity of endless connections to be self-organizing, dynamic, and adaptive that leverage advanced technologies to maximize or create new value exchange networks.Host: In your mind, how would you define a blockchain-enabled ecosystem and how are they different from other types of solutions?Host: How do you define all the various components of a DE?Be sure to check out more episodes of V-Next on www.vnextpod.com !

Are We Turning the Corner in the Economy? We Ask Richard Branch

Microsoft Research India Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 5, 2020 18:02

Back by popular demand, Engineering Influence welcomes the Chief Economist with Dodge Data and Analytics, Richard Branch, to discuss the economic outlook for the nation and the engineering industry. Transcript:Host:Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. Today. We're very pleased to welcome back to the program Richard Branch, Chief Economist with Dodge Data and Analytics to talk about the economy. Richard was on last month, and it was a very popular show talking about the macroeconomic situation in America, and given the fact that we're into June, and it seems like every month seems to be a different year in 2020, we wanted to have him back on. Richard, thank you again for coming back on the show.Richard Branch :A pleasure to be here. Thanks again. It was great to hear that people found hearing from an economist and in this day and age a positive thing. So, so that's certainly a good news.Host:Yeah, it's not exactly the dismal science anymore this time. More people want to know what's happening and I really want to start out the conversation because, you know, we're recording this on Friday, the 5th of June and today, the Labor Department came out with some surprising numbers. They found that the unemployment rate actually decreased a slight bit. We actually had job creation of 2.5 million jobs in May, which outperformed a recent survey by economists at Dow Jones who actually anticipated a drop in employment by 8.3 million jobs. So we have a 13.3% not wonderful unemployment rate, but it's better than we expected. Then we have other news, the airlines are starting to expand capacity. The theme parks in Florida, for example, Universal is opening. Disney's going to be opening. It seems like we're turning a corner. Is that, is that too much wishful thinking or what are you seeing right now?Richard Branch :Okay. I think when we look back on this crisis, May will have turned out to be the low point. And I think today's numbers are just an indication that we're now in the recovery phase. It happened a little bit earlier than we had anticipated. We had figured that job creation would start again in June. But as you mentioned, the main numbers coming in at plus 2.5 million, a huge upside surprise, and as state and local areas continue to reopen and loosen those rules on, on business activity and whatnot hiring we'll certainly keep moving forward. But not to be a wet blanket on today's number. But you know, between March and April, we lost well over 21 million jobs. So today's addition, certainly a positive step, particularly in the construction industry, the construction industry added back 464,000 jobs this morning following a million job loss in April. So you know, that that recovery though is going to be a very long and slow process and it just fraught with pitfalls. You know, the easy lifting will come first with, with those huge negative numbers in April that the big changes will come early. But once we get we continue to think that once we get into the back half of this year, that that growth will continue to move forward, but at a pretty slow pace.Host:Yeah. And it's interesting because we just recently launched a research Institute, which was a separate arm of ACEC, and they've been doing some business impact surveys since really the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic....tracking different indicators. And our most recent survey came back end of last week. And it showed that one fourth of our firms that were surveyed roughly 22% of respondents reported having business areas that are outperforming now, which is a significant increase from April. And they've seen some growth in the COVID-19 area of business, healthcare and the like, it seems like it's turning that corner. But as you mentioned, you know, at large recovering from this is not going to be an overnight kind of thing. It's gonna be a building process. Do you think that it's extending know a little bit further into 2021? Or do you think that we might be able to see a little bit of a, you know, recouping some of our losses before the end of the calendar year?Richard Branch :I think overall for the economy I think obviously the economy will contract this year. You know, we're still looking at a potentially 20 plus percent decline in GDP in the second quarter. That will be difficult to make up in the second half of the year. In terms of employment, you know, it's probably not going to be until mid to late 21 or possibly into early 20, 22, when we start seeing all the jobs that we've lost in March and April added back. In terms of construction, I think it's, it's, it's a mixed bag. I think there will be some sectors that will absolutely outperform and surprise on the upside and, and potentially getting back to by the end of the year, getting back to levels that we've seen prior to the crisis. But, you know, I continue to think that this will be, you know, one of the big questions is, is what's the shape of recovery, you know, and it's what letter of the alphabet are you going to choose to define that shape? The L the w the V a I think a V shape recovery here, even with today's job numbers is still asking a lot. I think that's, that's a big uptick,Host:Maybe a W....Richard Branch :Could be potentially a w - the one that I've heard recently that I enjoyed was the Nike swoosh.Richard Branch :That, you know, the slope would be fairly sharp on the upside, you know, where we are now adding those jobs back quickly, but, but then as time goes on, that curve starts to flat now, and all of this is of course pending any future fiscal stimulus. So in our forecast, we we've included no future fiscal stimulus programs, even though they're likely to come. It, it just, you know, we need to see something that has a pretty good chance of passing through the House, the Senate and, and receiving presidential approval. So should there be fiscal stimulus, you know, a phase four phase five of five, six, that could certainly alter that trajectory in that shape of recovery, but barring fiscal stimulus, further fiscal stimulus that, that recovery in the second half of the year will be slow.Host:And I think that what you just said kind of reflects the thinking of our membership, because one of the questions that we asked in that survey was essentially, you know, what sector do you think is going to recover first? And it was really a, it was a split decision. I mean, there there's, there's no agreement on whether the private sector, the public sector, when it, when it comes to engineering, design, construction is going to recover. You know, we had essentially... yeah, roughly, you know, it was kind of 50 50. Is there anything in, in, in your research that would indicate one sector recovering earlier than the other? Does it, is it still too early to tell? I know that, you know, Congress has something to say about this, about exactly what's going to be in that next if we do have one phase four stimulus you know, what are your thoughts on, on who's going to get there first?Richard Branch :I think it's, that's a very nuanced conversation because I don't think it's broad based that public will do better than private or private will do better than public over the next several months. I do think that certain areas of private construction have the ability to bounce back quicker than others. You know, single fam is certainly outperforming expectations warehouse construction especially those big eCommerce fulfillment sites, I think have a potential significant upside data centers, but other sides of public or private construction, or are going to suffer. Retail. Hotels. And then even the office sector, the speculative side of the office sector, it seems the trend now that we're a month or two into this crisis the trend towards working from home seems to be continuing in terms of, you know, I just within the past couple weeks, Facebook and Twitter have essentially announced plans that they're going to incentivize workers to stay at home..Host:And Facebook is going to index salary to the areas where the people live. Exactly. Which is even more interesting because, you know, then that way that'll keep some people in those higher - those more expensive areas. Yeah. I guess this is the kind of thing that's going to be fueling academic papers for a while.Richard Branch :Yes.Host:I, I doubt that there was a handle and, and, and, and on exactly how much of an impact and how lasting an impact the shift to remote work and just the way that people are going to be interacting with the built environment. It's really hard to write policy now for something that we just don't know what the impacts are going to be. And I would imagine from the, financial analytical side, and then also from just the economic side, it's hard to get a handle on exactly what that impact's going to be long term.Richard Branch :Absolutely. You know, that the office market has gone through such undulations over time. You know, from, from everybody back in the old days, you know, everybody having their own office too, be more open space environments and, and the beginning of the gig economy and people working from home more and telecommuting and whatnot to now this, I think, well, that is a potential downside. I do think there's, there's some upside there as well in terms of design elements and improving office design and air circulation and air handling and whatnot. So you know, I think even in that downturn, or even in that systemic shift in an office market, I still think there is incredible potential there for construction.Host:For the industry right now, you know, Congress is in the midst of handling a number of issues, but one of the things that continues to move at least in the Senate and now in the house, cause this week Chairman DeFazio released his concept - his surface transportation bill and any set a date, he said, July is when he wants to have a floor vote, which would be very wishful. You know, fast-tracked kind of wishful thinking because you're just given schedule, but how important would getting a surface bill, a longterm surface bill be to the industry you know, what kind of impact do you think that would, would have either speculative just kind of injecting some confidence back into the economy and then just the real dollars and cents project work.Richard Branch :It's critical. It provides not only the clarity to state and local areas in terms of future funding, but of course there's just a huge positive force in terms of injecting dollars into the system. I was just this morning reading a report that ARTBA but put out the American Road and Transportation Builders Association, and their research found that in fiscal year 2018, they estimate that States were able to take 30 point $8 billion in federal highway funding and translate that into $66 billion in actual highway improvements.Richard Branch :So taking some federal money, lumping it with the States. And so there's a huge multiplier there. So that might be limited in the cycle, just with the pressure that state and local areas are feeling in terms of revenues and whatnot in this crisis. But it just goes to show that that getting that low hanging fruit of the reauthorization of the FAST Act through as quickly as possible is a necessity yeah. In terms of the construction industry.Host:Yeah. And as we mentioned yet, I think last time we kind of talked about the whole concept of shovel ready and, and how that, you know, the approach - It appears the Congress is taking now what you know is more thoughtful and longterm than looking at the immediate payoff of saying, okay, well, we're going to put X amount of money of stimulus and we're going to create, you know, these immediate jobs. The longterm infrastructure investment would create that sustained job growth and kind of extend that multiplier. And, you know, I guess for any of the policy people out there who listen to our podcast, we try to get them to listen by sending it to them as much as possible, what message would you give to them as they put together kind of a proposal for a longterm infrastructure bill?Richard Branch :Think big. This is not a time in our opinion to quibble over dollars and cents even with today's job numbers, even with the positive trend in initial claims you know, this is, this is a time to, to dig in with the construction industry and get projects moving. And you know, there, there will be issues of course, over the longer terms in terms of debt and whatnot with the U S economy, but people are out of work. The construction industry is, is a great litmus to get that economy moving again, especially as state and local areas that are suffering and, and so think big and get it done sooner rather than later.Host:Absolutely. Well, is there anything else going on from your world, from your perspective that, that are listeners should know about now? Or is it, is it just kind of pay attention to the news and keep abreast on what's what's going on?Richard Branch :Sure. Well, I think when we spoke last and I can't recall if we had released our April construction starts data yeah. At that point. But our April data for construction activity was as suspected. It was pretty weak in total construction starts, fell close to 25% from March to April, it does look like as we look at the May data and we're still cycling through that, the quality control aspect of it. But it does look like the May data we'll show a slight increase in nonresidential building construction activity from April to May. So again, another sign that the potential that the bottom of this cycle was probably in May, and just this morning, we released our leading indicator of construction, the Dodge Momentum Index, which was essentially flat compared to April. So these are projects when they first enter the very earliest stages of planning for nonresidential building. It was essentially flat in mid April. So I'll take that as a good sign. You know, back in the recession, the Great Recession, I guess we have to call it just to differentiate it. Back in the Great Recession, the DMI fell sharply and over a long period of time. Yeah. So far over the last couple of months, the DMI is only down by about 10 or 12%.Richard Branch :So it shows us that there are still a lot of projects early in the pipeline for a nonresidential building. So again, a positive note that as the economy starts to reopen and as rules on construction are relaxed that there are a lot of projects in the pipeline ready to move forward.Host:Yeah. And that's good. And that, again, for any of our members listening for anyone listening, you can access those indices and the reports at construction.com and the really good detailed information to have if you're a business leader or you're someone interested in the sector the data that you have up on that site and that Dodge produces is extremely useful. So I encourage people to go and check that out.Host:Well, I do appreciate you coming back on the show, Richard, because it's always good to do a, do a check in, especially when you see all these, you know, these numbers flying around and you get an unexpected jobs figures in the midst of a pandemic and everything else going on to kind of get an update and see where things are. And I do hope to have you on again, in a couple of in a couple of weeks to see if anything's changed.Richard Branch :You're right. This, this was after so many months of, of talking to our clients and the press and, and about bad news. It's good to finally see a little bit of a light at the end of the tunnel. So always happy to be here and a pleasure talking to you. And I hope you stay safe and healthy.Host:You as well, stay safe, stay healthy. And again, thank you. That's Richard Branch, he's the Chief Economist for Dodge Data and Analytics - www.construction.com is where to find him. And this has been Engineering Influence from ACEC.

Podcast: Potential and Pitfalls of AI with Dr. Eric Horvitz

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 2, 2020

Episode 001 | March 06, 2020 Dr. Eric Horvitz is a technical fellow at Microsoft, and is director of Microsoft Research Labs, including research centers in Redmond, Washington, Cambridge, Massachusetts, New York, New York, Montreal, Canada, Cambridge, UK, and Bengaluru, India. He is one of the world’s leaders in AI, and a thought leader in the use of AI in the complexity of the real world. On this podcast, we talk to Dr. Horvitz about a wide range of topics, including his thought leadership in AI, his study of AI and its influence on society, the potential and pitfalls of AI, and how useful AI can be in a country like India. Transcript Eric Horvitz: Humans will always want to make connection with humans, sociologists, social workers, physicians, teachers, we’re always going to want to make human connections and have human contacts. I think they’ll be amplified in a world of richer automation so much so that even when machines can generate art and write music, even music with lyrics that might put tear in someone’s eye if they didn’t know it was a machine, that will lead us to say, “Is that written by a human. I want to hear a song sung by a human who experienced something, the way I would experience something, not a machine.” And so I think human touch, human experience, human connection will grow even more important in a world of rising automation and those kinds of tasks and abilities will be even more compensated than they are today. (music plays) Host: Welcome to the Microsoft Research India podcast, where we explore cutting-edge research that’s impacting technology and society. I’m your host, Sridhar Vedantham. Host: Our guest today is Dr. Eric Horvitz, Technical Fellow and director of the Microsoft Research Labs. It’s tremendously exciting to have him as the first guest on the MSR India podcast because of his stature as a leader in research and his deep understanding of the technical and societal impact of AI. Among the many honors and recognitions Eric has received over the course of his career are the Feigenbaum Prize and the Allen Newell Prize for contributions to AI, and the CHI Academy honor for his work at the intersection of AI and human-computer interaction. He has been elected fellow of the National Academy of Engineering (NAE), the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM) and the Association for the Advancement of AI , where he also served as president. Eric is also a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society. He has served on advisory committees for the National Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health, President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, DARPA, and the Allen Institute for AI. Eric has been deeply involved in studying the influences of AI on people and society, including issues around ethics, law, and safety. He chairs Microsoft’s Aether committee on AI, effects, and ethics in engineering and research. He established the One Hundred Year Study on AI at Stanford University and co-founded the Partnership on AI. Eric received his PhD and MD degrees at Stanford University. On this podcast, we talk to Eric about his journey in Microsoft Research, his own research, the potential and pitfalls he sees in AI, how AI can help in countries like India, and much more. Host: Eric, welcome to the podcast. Eric Horvitz: It’s an honor to be here. I just heard I am the first interviewee for this new series. Host: Yes, you are, and we are really excited about that. I can’t think of anyone better to do the first podcast of the series with! There’s something I’ve been curious about for a long time. Researchers at Microsoft Research come with extremely impressive academic credentials. It’s always intrigued me that you have a medical degree and also a degree in computer science. What was the thinking behind this and how does one complement the other in the work that you do? Eric Horvitz: One of the deep shared attributes of folks at Microsoft Research and so many of our colleagues doing research in computer science is deep curiosity, and I’ve always been one of these folks that’s said “why” to everything. I’m sure my parents were frustrated with my sequence of whys starting with one question going to another. So I’ve been very curious as an undergraduate. I did deep dives into physics and chemistry. Of course, math to support it all – biology and by the time I was getting ready to go to grad school I really was exploring so many sciences, but the big “why” for me that I could not figure out was the why of human minds, the why of cognition. I just had no intuition as to how the cells, these tangles of the cells that we learn about in biology and neuroscience could have anything to do with my second to second experience as being a human being, and so you know what I have to just spend my graduate years diving into the unknowns about this from the scientific side of things. Of course, many people have provided answers over the centuries- some of the answers are the foundations of religious beliefs of various kinds and religious systems. So I decided to go get an MD-PhD, just why not understand humans deeply and human minds as well as the scientific side of nervous systems, but I was still an arc of learning as I hit grad school at Stanford and it was great to be at Stanford because the medical school was right next to the computer science department. You can literally walk over and I found myself sitting in computer science classes, philosophy classes, the philosophy of mind-oriented classes and cognitive psychology classes and so there to the side of that kind of grad school life and MD-PhD program, there are anatomy classes that’s being socialized into the medical school class, but I was delighted by the pursuit of- you might call it the philosophical and computational side of mind- and eventually I made the jump, the leap. I said “You know what, my pursuit is principles, I think that’s the best hope for building insights about what’s going on” and I turned around those principles into real world problems in particular since that was, had a foot in the medical school, how do we apply these systems in time-critical settings to help emergency room, physicians and trauma surgeons? Time critical action where computer systems had to act quickly, but had to really also act precisely when they maybe didn’t have enough time to think all the way and this led me to what I think is an interesting direction which is models of bounded-rationality which I think describes us all. Host: Let’s jump into a topic that seems to be on everybody’s mind today – AI. Everyone seems to have a different idea about what AI actually is and what it means to them. I also constantly keep coming across people who use AI and the term ML or machine learning as synonyms. What does AI mean to you and do you think there’s a difference between AI and ML? Eric Horvitz: The scientists and engineers that first used the phrase artificial intelligence did so in a beautiful document that’s so well written in terms of the questions it asks that it could be a proposal today to the National Science Foundation, and it would seem modern given that so many the problems have not been solved, but they laid out the vision including the pillars of artificial intelligence. This notion of perception building systems that could recognize or perceive sense in the world. This idea of reasoning with logic or other methods to reason about problems, solve problems, learning how can they become better at what they did with experience with other kinds of sources of information and this final notion they focused on as being very much in the realm of human intelligence language, understanding how to manipulate symbols in streams or sequences to express concepts and use of language. So, learning has always been an important part of artificial intelligence, it’s one of several pillars of work, it’s grown in importance of late so much so that people often write AI/ML to refer to machine learning but it’s one piece and it’s an always been an important piece of artificial intelligence. Host: I think that clarifies the difference between AI and ML. Today, we see AI all around us. What about AI really excites you and what do you think the potential pitfalls of AI could be? Eric Horvitz: So let me first say that AI is a constellation of technologies. It’s not a single technology. Although, these days there’s quite a bit of focus on the ability to learn how to predict or move or solve problems via machine learning analyzing large amounts of data which has become available over the last several decades, when it used to be scarce. I’m most excited about my initial goals to understand human minds. So, whenever I read it a paper on AI or see a talk or see a new theorem being proved my first reaction is, how does it grow my understanding, how does it help to answer the questions that have been long-standing in my mind about the foundations of human cognition? I don’t often say that to anybody but that’s what I’m thinking. Secondly, my sense is what a great endeavor to be pushing your whole life to better understand and comprehend human minds. It’s been a slow slog. However, insights have come about advances and how they relate to those questions but along the way what a fabulous opportunity to apply the latest advances to enhancing the lives of people, to empowering people in new ways and to create new kinds of automation that can lead to new kinds of value, new kinds of experiences for people. The whole notion of augmenting human intellect with machines has been something that’s fascinated me for many decades. So I love the fact that we can now leverage these technologies and apply them even though we’re still very early on in how these ideas relate to what’s going on in our minds. Applications include healthcare. There’s so much to do in healthcare with decreasing the cost of medicine while raising the quality of care. This idea of being able to take large amounts of data to build high quality, high precision diagnostic systems. Systems that can predict outcomes. We just created a system recently for example that can detect when a patient in a hospital is going to crash unexpectedly with organ system failures for example, and that can be used in ways that could alert physicians in advanced, medical teams to be ready to actually save patient’s lives. Even applications that we’re now seeing in daily life like cars that drive themselves. I drive a Tesla and I’ve been enjoying the experience of the semi-automated driving, the system can do. Just seeing how far we’ve gotten in a few years with systems that recognize patterns like the patterns on a road or that recognize objects in its way for automatic braking. These systems can save thousands of lives. I’m not sure about India but I know the United States statistics and there are a little bit more than 40,000 lives lost on the highways in the United States per year. Looking at the traffic outside here in Bangalore, I’m guessing that India is at least up there with tens of thousands of deaths per year. I believe that that AI systems can reduce these numbers of deaths by helping people to drive better even if it’s just in safety related features. Host: The number of fatalities on Indian roads is indeed huge and that’s in fact been one of the motivators for a different research project in the lab on which I hope to do a podcast in the near future. Eric Horvitz: I know it’s the HAMS project. Host: It is the HAMS project and I’m hoping that we can do a podcast with the researchers on that sometime soon. Now, going back to AI, what do you think we need to look out for or be wary of? People, including industry leaders seem to land on various points on a very broad spectrum ranging from “AI is great for humanity” to “AI is going to overpower and subsume the human race at some point of time.” Eric Horvitz: So, what’s interesting to me is that over the last three decades we’ve gone from AI stands for almost implemented, doesn’t really work very well. Have fun, good luck to this idea of just getting things up and running and being so excited there’s no other concerns but to get this thing out the door and have it for example, help physicians diagnose patients more accurately to now, “Wait a minute! We are putting these machines in places that historically have always relied upon human intelligence, as these machines for the first time edge into the realm of human intellects, what are the ethical issues coming to the fore? Are there intrinsic biases in the way data is created or collected, some of which might come from the society’s biases that creates the data? What about the safety issues and the harms that can come from these systems when they make a mistake? When will systems be used in ways that could deny people consequential services like a loan or education because of an unfair decision or a decision that aligns mysteriously or obviously with the way society has worked amplifying deep biases that have come through our history?” These are all concerns that many of us are bringing to light and asking for more resources and attention to focus on and also trying to cool the jets of some enthusiasts who want to just blast ahead and apply these technologies without thinking deeply about the implications, I’d say sometimes the rough edges of these technologies. Now, I’m very optimistic that we will find pathways to getting incredible amounts of value out of these systems when properly applied, but we need to watch out for all sorts of possible adverse effects when we take our AI and throw it into the complexity of the open world outside of our clean laboratories. Host: You’ve teed-up my next question perfectly. Is it incumbent upon large tech companies who are leading the charge as far as AI is concerned to be responsible for what AI is doing, and the ethics and the fairness and all the stuff behind AI which makes it kind of equitable to people at large? Eric Horvitz: It’s a good question. There are different points of view on that question. We’ve heard some company leaders issue policy statements along the lines of “We will produce technologies and make them available and it’s the laws of the country that will help guide how they’re used or regulate what we do. If there are no laws, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be selling something with a focus on profit to our zeal with technology.” Microsoft’s point of view has been that the technology could be created by experts inside its laboratories and by its engineers. Sometimes is getting ahead of where legislation and regulation needs to be and therefore we bear a responsibility as a company in both informing regulatory agencies and the public at large about the potential downsides of technology and appropriate uses and misuses, as well as look carefully at what we do when we actually ship our products or make a cloud service available or build something for a customer. Host: Eric, I know that you personally are deeply involved in thinking through AI and it’s impact on society, how to make it fair, how make it transparent and so on. Could you talk a little bit about that, especially in the context of what Microsoft is doing to ensure that AI is actually good for everybody? Eric Horvitz: You know, these are why this is such a passion for me – I’ve been extremely interested starting with the technical issues which I thought- I think- really deep and fascinating, which is when you build a limited system by definition that’s much simpler than a complex universe that’s going to be immersed in, you take it from the laboratory into the open world. I refer to that as AI in the open world. You learn a lot about the limitations of the AI. You also learn to ask questions and to extend these systems so they’re humble, they understand their limitations, they understand how accurate they are, you get them a level of self-knowledge. This is a whole area of open world intelligence that I think really reads upon some of the early questions for me about what humans are doing, what their minds are doing, and potentially other animals, vertebrates. It started there for me. Back to your question now, we are facing the same kind of things when we take an AI technology and put it in the hands of a judge who might make decisions about criminal justice looking at recommendations based on statistics to help him or her take an action. Now we have to realize we have systems we’re building that work with people. People want explanations. They don’t want to look at a black box with an indicator on it. They will say, why is this system telling me this? So at Microsoft we’ve made significant investments, both in our research team and in our engineering teams and in our policy groups at thinking through details of the problems and solutions when it comes to a set of problems, and I’ll just list a few right now. Safety and robustness of AI systems, transparency and intelligibility of these systems- can they explain themselves, bias and fairness, how can we build systems that are fair along certain dimensions, engineering best practices. Well, what does it mean for a team working with tools to understand how to build a system and maintain it over time so, that it’s trustworthy. Human AI collaboration – what are principles by which we can enable people to better work in a fluid way with systems that might be trying to augment their intelligence such that is a back and forth and understanding of when a system is not confident, for example. Even notions about attention and cognition is, are these systems being used in ways that might be favorable to advertisers, but they’re grabbing your attention and holding them on an application because they’ve learned how to do that mysteriously – should we have a point of view about that? So Microsoft Research has stood up teams looking at these questions. We also have stood up an ethics advisory board that we call the Aether Committee to deliberate and provide advice on hard questions that are coming up across the spectrum of these issues and providing guidance to our senior leadership team at Microsoft in how we do our business. Host: I know you were the co-founder of the Partnership on AI. Can you talk a little bit about that and what it sought to achieve? Eric Horvitz: This vision arose literally at conferences and, in fact, one of the key meetings was at a pub in New York City after meeting at NYU, where several computer scientists got together, all passionate about seeing it go well for artificial intelligence technologies by investing in understanding and addressing some of these rough edges and we decided we could bring together the large IT companies, Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft to think together about what it might mean to build an organization that was a nonprofit that balanced the IT companies with groups in civil society, academic groups, nonprofit AI research to think through these challenges and come up with best practices in a way that brought the companies together rather than separating them through a competitive spirit. Actually this organization was created by the force of the friendships of AI Scientists, many of whom go back to being in grad school together across many universities, this invisible college of people united in an interesting understanding how to do AI in the open world. Host: Do you think there is a role for governments to play where policies governing AI are concerned, or do you think it’s best left to technology companies, individual thinkers and leaders to figure out what to do with AI? Eric Horvitz: Well, AI is evolving quickly and like other technologies governments have a significant role to play in assuring the safety of these technologies, their fairness, their appropriate uses. I see regulatory activity being of course largely in the hands of governments being advised by leadership in academia and in industry and the public which has a lot to say about these technologies. There’s been quite a bit of interest and activity, some of that is part of the enthusiastic energy, you might say, going into thinking through AI right now. Some people say there’s a hype-cycle that’s leaking everywhere and to all regimes, including governments right now, but it’s great to see various agencies writing documents, asking for advice, looking for sets of principles, publishing principles and engaging multi-stakeholder groups across the world. Host: There’s been a lot of talk and many conversations about the impact that AI can have on the common man. One of the areas of concern with AI spreading is the loss of jobs at a large scale. What’s your opinion on how AI is going to impact jobs? Eric Horvitz: My sense is there’s a lot of uncertainty about this, what kind of jobs will be created, what kinds of jobs will go away. If you take a segment like driving cars, I was surprised at how large a percentage of the US population makes their living driving trucks. Now, what if the long haul parts of truck driving, long highway stretches goes away when it becomes automated, it’s unclear what the ripples of that effect will be on society, on the economy. It’s interesting, there are various studies underway. I was involved in the international academy study looking at the potential effects of new kinds of automation coming via computer science and other related technologies and the results of that analysis was that we’re flying in the dark. We don’t have enough data to make these decisions yet or to make these recommendations or they have understandings about how things are going to go. So, we see people saying things on all sides right now. My own sense is that there’ll be some significant influences of AI on our daily lives and how we make our livings. But I’ll say one thing. One of my expectations and it’s maybe also a hope is that as we see more automation in the world and as that shifts in nature of what we do daily and what were paid to do or compensated to do what we call work, there’ll be certain aspects of human discourse that we simply will learn, for a variety of reasons, that we cannot automate, we aren’t able to automate or we shouldn’t automate, and the way I refer to this as in the midst of the rise of new kinds of automation some of which reading on tasks and abilities we would have in the past assumed was the realm of human intellect will see a concurrent rise of an economy of human around human caring. You think about this, humans will always want to make connection with humans, sociologists, social workers, physicians, teachers, we’re always going to want to make human connections and have human contacts. I think they’ll be amplified in a world of richer automation so much so that even when machines can generate art and write music, even music with lyrics that might put tear in someone’s eye if they didn’t know it was a machine, that will lead us to say, “Is that written by a human. I want to hear a song sung by a human who experienced something, the way I would experience something, not a machine.” And so I think human touch, human experience, human connection will grow even more important in a world of rising automation and those kinds of tasks and abilities will be even more compensated than they are today. So, we’ll see even more jobs in this realm of human caring. Host: Now, switching gears a bit, you’ve been in Microsoft Research for a long time. How have you seen MSR evolve over time and as a leader of the organization, what’s your vision for MSR over the next few years? Eric Horvitz: It’s been such an interesting journey. When I came to Microsoft Research it was 1992, and Rick Rashid and Nathan Myhrvold convinced me to stay along with two colleagues. We just came out of Stanford grad school we had ideas about going into academia. We came up to Microsoft to visit, we thought we were just here for a day to check things out, maybe seven or eight people that were then called Microsoft Research and we said, “Oh come on, please we didn’t really see a big future.” But somehow we took a risk and we loved this mission statement that starts with “Expand the state-of-the-art.” Period. Second part of the mission statement, “Transfer those technologies as fast as possible into real products and services.” Third part of the statement was, “Contribute to the vibrancy of this organization.” I remember seeing in my mind as we committed to doing this, trying it out- a vision of a lever with the fulcrum at the mountain top in the horizon. And I thought how can we make this company ours, our platform to take our ideas which then were bubbling. We had so many ideas about what we could do with AI from my graduate work and move the world, and that’s always been my sense for what Microsoft Research has been about. It’s a place where the top intellectual talent in the world, top scholars, often with entrepreneurial bents want to get something done can make Microsoft’s their platform for expressing their creativity and having real influence to enhancing the lives of millions of people. Host: Something I’ve heard for many years at Microsoft Research is that finding the right answer is not the biggest thing, what’s important is to ask the right, tough questions. And also that if you succeed in everything you do you are probably not taking enough risks. Does MSR continue to follow these philosophies? Eric Horvitz: Well, I’ve said three things about that. First of all, why should a large company have an organization like Microsoft Research? It’s unique. We don’t see that even in competitors. Most competitors are taking experts if they could attract them and they’re embedding them in product teams. Microsoft has had the foresight and we’re reaching 30 years now since we kicked off Microsoft Research to say, if we take top talent and attract this top talent into the company and we give these people time and we familiarize them with many of our problems and aspirations, they can not only come up with new ideas, out-of-the-box directions, they can also provide new kinds of leadership to the company as a whole, setting its direction, providing a weathervane, looking out to the late-breaking changes on the frontiers of computer science and other sciences and helping to shape Microsoft in the world, versus, for example, helping a specific product team do better with an existing current conception of what a product should be. Host: Do you see this role of Microsoft Research changing over the next few years? Eric Horvitz: Microsoft has changed over its history and one of my interests and my reflections and I shared this in an all-hands meeting just last night with MSR India. In fact, they tried out some new ideas coming out of a retreat that the leadership team from Microsoft Research had in December – just a few months ago, is how might we continue to think and reflect about being the best we can, given who we are. I’ve called it polishing the gem, not breaking it but polishing, buffing it out, thinking about what we can do with it to make ourselves even more effective in the world. One trend we’ve seen at Microsoft is that over the years we’ve gone from Microsoft Research, this separate tower of intellectual depth reaching out into the company in a variety of ways, forming teams, advising, working with outside agencies, with students in the world, with universities to a larger ecosystem of research at Microsoft, where we have pockets or advanced technology groups around the company doing great work and in some ways doing the kinds of things that Microsoft Research used to be doing, or solely doing at Microsoft in some ways. So we see that upping the game as to what a center of excellence should be doing. I’m just asking the question right now, what are our deep strengths, this notion of deep scholarship, deep ability, how can we best leverage that for the world and for the company, and how can we work with other teams in a larger R&D ecosystem, which has come to be at Microsoft? Host: You’ve been at the India Lab for a couple of days now. How has the trip been and what do you think of the work that the lab in India is doing? Eric Horvitz: You know we just hit 15 here – 15 years old so this lab is just getting out of adolescence- that’s a teenager. It seems like just yesterday when I was sitting with the Anandan, the first director of this lab looking at a one-pager that he had written about “Standing up a lab in India.” I was sitting in Redmond’s and having coffee and I tell you that was a fast 15 years, but it’s been great to see what this lab became and what it does. Each of our labs is unique in so many ways typically based on the culture it’s immersed in. The India lab is famous for its deep theoretical chops and fabulous theorists here, the best in the world. This interdisciplinary spirit of taking theory and melding it with real-world challenges to create incredible new kinds of services and software. One of the marquee areas of this lab has been this notion of taking a hard look and insightful gaze at emerging markets, Indian culture all up and thinking about how computing and computing platforms and communications can be harnessed in a variety of ways to enhance the lives of people, how can they be better educated, how can we make farms, agriculture be more efficient and productive, how can we think about new economic models, new kinds of jobs, how can we leverage new notions of what it means to do freelance or gig work. So the lab has its own feel, its own texture, and when I immerse myself in it for a few days I just love getting familiar with the latest new hires, the new research fellows, the young folks coming out of undergrad that are just bright-eyed and inject energy into this place. So I find Microsoft Research India to have a unique combination of talented researchers and engineers that brings to the table some of the deepest theory in the world’s theoretical understandings of hard computer science, including challenges with understanding the foundations of AI systems. There’s a lot of work going on right now. Machine learning as we discussed earlier, but we don’t have a deep understanding, for example, of how these neural network systems work and why they’re working so well and I just came out of a meeting where folks in this lab have come up with some of the first insights into why some of these procedures are working so well to understand that and understand their limitations and which ways to go and how to guide that, how to navigate these problems is rare and it takes a deep focus and ability to understand the complexity arising in these representations and methods. At the same time, we have the same kind of focus and intensity with a gaze at culture at emerging markets. There are some grand challenges with understanding the role of technology in society when it comes to a complex civilization, or I should say set of civilizations like we see in India today. This mix of futuristic, out-of-the-box advanced technology with rural farms, classical ways of doing things, meshing the old and the new and so many differences as you move from province to province, state to state, and these sociologists and practitioners that are looking carefully at ethnography, epidemiology, sociology, coupled with computer science are doing fabulous things here at the Microsoft Research India Lab. Even coming up with new thinking about how we can mesh opportunistic Wi-Fi with sneakers, Sneakernet and people walking around to share large amounts of data. I don’t think that project would have arisen anywhere, but at this lab. Host: Right. So you’ve again teed-up my next question perfectly. As you said India’s a very complex place in terms of societal inequities and wealth inequalities. Eric Horvitz: And technical inequality, it’s amazing how different things are from place to place. Host: That’s right. So, what do you think India can do to utilize AI better and do you think India is a place that can generate new innovative kinds of AI? Eric Horvitz: Well, absolutely, the latter is going to be true, because some of the best talent in computer science in the world is being educated and is working in this, in this country, so of course we will see fabulous things, fabulous innovations being originating in India in both in the universities and in research labs, including Microsoft Research. As to how to harness these technologies, you know, it takes a special skill to look at the currently available capabilities in a constellation of technologies and to think deeply about how to take them into the open world into the real world, the complex messy world. It often takes insights as well as a very caring team of people to stick with an idea and to try things out and to watch it and to nurture it and to involve multiple stakeholders in watching over time for example, even how a deployment works, gathering data about it and so on. So, I think some very promising areas include healthcare. There are some sets of illnesses that are low-hanging fruit for early detection and diagnosis, understanding where we could intervene early on by looking at pre-diabetes states for example and guiding patients early on to getting care to not go into more serious pathophysiologies, understanding when someone needs to be hospitalized, how long they should be hospitalized in a resource limited realm, we have to sort of selectively allocate resources, doing them more optimally can lead to great effects. This idea of understanding education, how to educate people, how to engage them over time, diagnosing which students might drop out early on and alerting teachers to invest more effort, understanding when students don’t understand something and automatically helping them get through a hard concept. We’re seeing interesting breakthroughs now in tutoring systems that can detect these states. Transportation – I mean, it’s funny we build systems in the United States and this what I was doing to predict traffic and to route cars ideally. Then we come to India and we look at the streets here we say, “I don’t think so, we need a different approach,” but it just raises the stakes on how we can apply AI in new ways. So, the big pillars are education, healthcare, transportation, even understanding how to guide resources and allocations in the economy. I think we’ll see big effects of insightful applications in this country. Host: This has been a very interesting conversation. Before we finish do you want to leave us with some final thoughts? Eric Horvitz: Maybe I’ll make a call out to young folks who are thinking about their careers and what they might want to do and to assure them that it’s worth it. It’s worth investing in taking your classes seriously, in asking lots of questions, in having your curiosities addressed by your teachers and your colleagues, family. There’s so much excitement and fun in doing research and development, in being able to build things and feel them and see how they work in the world, and maybe mostly being able to take ideas into reality in ways that you can see the output of your efforts and ideas really delivering value to people in the world. Host: That was a great conversation, Eric. Thank you! Eric Horvitz: Thank you, it’s been fun.

HED's Michael Cooper on Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 28, 2020 37:43

Host:Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast by the American Council of Engineering Companies. Today. I'm very pleased to welcome back to the program. Michael Cooper. He is the managing principal of HED out of Southfield, Michigan. He is also a new member of ExCom. You might remember our last conversation when the new ExCom members came down for orientation and we had them on the show, and he mentioned that he was very active and engaged on leadership development and coaching business leaders to really maximize their effectiveness and grow as leaders. And that's something that we want to talk about today. So, Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the program.Mike Cooper:Well, thank you Jeff. Appreciate it.Host:So how did, how did you get involved with, with leadership as, as kind of a thought leadership kind of project for yourself? I know that you speak at conferences, you do podcasts and you talk about these things. How did, how did that really become a passion of yours?Mike Cooper:So, you know, I think it started because it paralleled my professional development, right? So I started out in, in the industry in the design community as a mechanical engineer working on projects and designing systems. And from there I went a little bit into project management where I had a chance to not just design projects, but we teams that were designing projects. And from there more participation in business development as I became a little bit more expert into projects, managing them project delivery, that became a natural extension. And then onto leadership of office and people and such. And so I, over the time, you know, I came to realize that I'm leading people, leading organizations. It's really its own skillset. It is, it is separate from, you know, engineering and sort of the technical world that I was educated in and I grew up in you know, if you look back at the industry 25, 30 or more years, it was not uncommon for, you know, the, the most talented engineer, architect, technical professional to become the manager to become the leader of the organization. I think that may be less common today as organizations are realizing that the business side of what we do separate from the design and the creative side requires professionals with a unique skill set to lead organizations and strategic plan and lead people. So it's something that I was involved with as I developed professionally. Something I realized was an important part of running our business and something that I found that I really enjoyed separate from the technical challenges, leadership comes with its own set of challenges.Host:That's correct.Mike Cooper:That I did, I enjoyed those as well. And so I think my career moved me in this direction and as you said, my interests and passion continued that and I was fortunate to get the opportunities to practice in this part of the industry.Host:And over the course of your career, I mean, do you think there's a watershed moment where things kind of shifted? Like you said you had at in times you know, in past the most talented engineer, the one who is the best of problem solving and maybe on time performance for project delivery rising up the ranks and becoming the manager and then find themselves managing people more than they are projects. Was there a watershed moment in your mind where that kind of shifted away from just, you know, that focus to looking at executives who also had the soft skills of people management of developing their teams? You know and kind of where we are today?Mike Cooper:Well, you know, I feel like if I, if I look back in the 80s, when we really started to hear more broadly about total quality management, about greater efficiency, I think that was the point in which you know, not in select pockets, but where broader industries and across countries, continents, professions. We started to see a greater push for efficiency and quality and process. And I think organizations started to look at their own processes the way, not just what they're doing but the way in which they do them and the way in which their people are trained in the way in which their people interact with one another and take on tasks. And that to me is where we really started to separate the, you know, the say the, the engineering or their creative design side stuff from the process and the leadership and the organizational stuff.Mike Cooper:And I to me that's where I started to see that discussion happening. You know,, in a wider swath of people. And then I think it's just continued from there. And then global competition, Jeff might be the other thing that has has really driven this, I think all industries have felt in the past two or three decades more competition coming from more places. And so the drive to utilize new technology the drive to be more efficient and to be able to pass on the benefits of that efficiency to and customers has further driven us to be to try to be more effective in our, in our businesses and tried to have more sophisticated marketing systems and finance systems and technology systems and all of those things. I think you've just led us to a focus on leadership and management in addition to the focus on the core business, which in my cases is design, architecture, engineering.Host:And I, that really just is a great segue into a really, one of the first points that we kind of discussed in advance of this show you know, outlining about six different points that kind of guide a conversation on leadership and that's purpose and strategic focus. And I think you touched upon that in your last answer, but, and essentially that, that focus in on - with the increased competition internationally with really an industry which is, which is evolving with increases in innovations in technology. The demands for both on the public side and the private side for a different kind of engineering work to be done. A greater focus on sustainability, resiliency LEED, all those things. How purpose and strategic focus is critically important in today's marketplace. How has the industry kind of coalesced around those two points?Mike Cooper:Well, I think there's two places where that becomes critical. I think the first place is because the next generation of talented professionals, the one that are the ones that are entering the field today, they, I think are more purpose-driven than generations past. You know, and, and so I think they're looking for that. And so I think on one hand, organizations are needing to be able to define that as, as part of a mechanism to recruit and retain top talent. But I think further to that, and touching on something you said earlier about change and the rate of change, I think the, the, the evolution of technology of systems and such has, has never been faster. The rate of change is accelerating very quickly. And so we often find ourselves day to day dealing with what appears to be constant change and that makes the need and the ability to define a clear purpose for the organization. So much more important because we can get lost in the day to day. And it's one of those things, you know, separating the urgent from important. We've got to remember that there needs to be a clear purpose, a clear direction out there so that the organization and everybody in it knows where the finish line is they know what road we're on. And they can, and they can follow that path.Mike Cooper:It's also the thing I think that inspires us to do great work. You know, when we coalesce, as you say, around a common person, a purpose, a common set of ideals a direction, that's what enables everybody in the organization to say, okay, I know where we're going. I know what I have to do to help us get there. You know, let's go. And we find we all end up pulling in the same direction. We find that we accomplish more. But the lack of that purpose, you find people spending their days very busy, but, but then at the end of the day wondering what it is that was accomplished that day. And I think we've all had days where we feel that way.Host:Absolutely. And it's, and it's really important to keep that strategic goal moving forward. So everyone sees the bigger picture and doesn't get lost in the day to day work, which may be unrelated to something, but you're working towards a larger purpose. And, and keeping that in everyone's mind is a challenge, but is critically important to keep things moving ahead. And you mentioned, you know, having everybody kind of coalesce around that idea that, that one purpose, the strategic goal. Once you get to that point and everyone's kind of bought in, what's your philosophy on setting those teams up of how do you select talent? How do you balance teams and kind of set them up to achieve their objective and motivate them along the way?Mike Cooper:So so when I, when I look at teams, I generally look at them through two lenses. The first is talent, and then the second is chemistry. There's, there's so you start out with the idea of talent and there's a quote by Jim Rowan that says you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And that to me is a reminder that when you surround yourself with great people, you yourself become better simply by being around them. And, and I'm a, I'm a believer of that. So I think you start out with the idea that I'm going to, I'm going to recruit the most talented people, the smartest people, the most strategic people that I can and begin there and then really have to focus on chemistry. I'm providing them tools, resources, and opportunities for that team to spend time together, get to know one another and grow together.Mike Cooper:You know, I'm always reminded in the world of sports usually all-star teams struggle against championship teams. You could argue that they have more talent, but they can, they never seem to be able to win. And that's because championship teams, while they don't necessarily have the best individual players, they've coalesced and they've become a team and they've gotten to know one another the way that they play, how they can complement one another. So they've sort of mastered that one plus one equals three philosophy. And that's where I think we want our teams to be. We want to put teams together, let them get to know one another so they can anticipate their moves, what they need and how they operate so we can truly complement one another. And then as leaders, I think we have to make time for the team.Mike Cooper:We've got to spend time with them. We've got to help them and support them. You know, there's, there's a saying that we've all heard right? When all is said and done, more gets said than done. And I think as a leader, it's really important that we focus on doing things, supporting things in a tangible way, and helping them to get better. It can't just be talk. There are times where we've got to roll up our sleeves and, and, and, and do some things. And, and as leaders we've got a great opportunity to lead by example and help teams come together and be successful.Host:The point used the analogy to the sports teams is really good. I think the idea between an all-star team and a championship team you know, the, I guess the flip side of that is when you have an all-star team, you have a lot of competing personalities and they're very good at what they do and they want to make sure their voices are heard and that they're leading. You have a bunch of people who are leaders and they're very, very high level performers versus a championship team where you might have some standouts, but overall the team together pushes forward to get the championship. And that's a question of culture. How do you deal with I guess the, the different kind of voices that you can have in the room, you know, and how do you set a culture that really puts that strategic goal, purpose and mission ahead of individual accomplishment? Not to say that individual accomplishment is bad because you know, that's what leads to group success. But how do you put the team before the individual personality?Mike Cooper:Yeah you know, the, they say, and I, and I believe this also people join firms, but they quit their managers. And I'm a, I'm a believer of that and I think that's true for our clients as well. I think that they hire firms, but if they gravitate away, it's the team and the leaders of the team that they're moving away from. So you know, I sort of begin all of this with the idea it's all about people. And particularly when we're talking about engineering, design, service, a service profession. It's about people and, and we need to make them are our top priority. If somebody says, you know, you know, Mike, what's the most important thing to I would tell them, don't listen to what I say. Pay attention to how I spend my time.Mike Cooper:Time is the most valuable commodity for all of us. And if you want to know what's important to me, simply look at what I choose to spend my time on that that will tell you everything you need to know. And for me by focus is on the people making time for them. You know, making sure that we are celebrating our successes and making sure that we're celebrating our failures and we're learning from them and we're understanding that when we don't succeed, it's often the path to greater success. Making sure that we're giving back to our community and we're, you know, and we're free to try to make the world a better place. It can't only be about what is on my desk. We, we in our world, we are working on projects that help our communities and help our societies. They make people's lives better every day. And I think it's important that we understand that. And that we embrace that and we foster that.Mike Cooper:We need to mentor one another. We know we don't have enough people entering our profession. We know that we need more people. And that's one of the great challenges that we all have. And so let's mentor people and let's help bring people into the profession and let's help develop them. And so I think it really starts with this idea that you've got to focus on your people. You've got to make them your top priority, not because somebody tells you to, because you, we have to know that in a service business, everything happens because of people. People do everything. And so you know, whether we're talking about our markets and understanding our clients and doing the research to know the trends, those things are critically important.Mike Cooper:But then when we do those things, at the end of the day, we're going to ask our people to put those things in motion and use all of those tools to serve our clients and help our communities. And and I, and I think you know, you sort of start there. The other thing with respect to culture that might be worth mentioning is the importance of sort of an inspirational message to motivate hard work. You know, we talked about focus and purpose and creating a rallying point for the organization. It also often is what motivates us to leapfrog and to make great jumps. And there's nothing, you know, that's more powerful for a culture than a rallying point that gets people super excited and super fired up to do something. Back in 1962, when John F. Kennedy talked about going to the moon, you know, we choose not to go to the moon. You know, not because it's easy, but because it's hard. You know, in 1962 we had no business talking about going to the moon with confidence. We were not winning the space race. I, a lot of people felt that Russia would get there first. They were more advanced than us, but that was the rallying cry. And that was, was one of the things that galvanized the country. It got us working towards a common purpose and inspired us and though we weren't positioned in 62 to get there, we got there in 69 and we got there first. And, and I don't know that that would've happened without JFK first putting that stake in the ground. As unlikely as it seemed at the time. You know, all, all big things start as small things. All great initiative started as small as a small ideas.Mike Cooper:The last thing I'll mention on the subject I have in my office an all company photo of Microsoft from 1978. It's one of my favorite photographs because it's got 11 people in it and it was taken in a garage. And most people can't picture Microsoft Corporation being a startup. Microsoft Corporation was a startup and not that long ago. All big things begin as small little nuggets. And I think when we build a culture and we look to inspire ourselves, we've got to think big and remember that we can think big even when it doesn't look like we can get there. Nelson Mandela said it always seems impossible until it's done. I think a, another way people say that is, you know, when you're going through hell, keep going. You know, keep pushing, keep pushing, you'll get there. And, and, you know, a big part of culture is a reminder that we've got to put our stake in the ground and get fired up and work towards it because we can do much more than we think we can do when we, when we begin working.Host:Yeah, absolutely. And, and that kind of you know, it's, it's interesting because I think there's always in organizations, there's always a drive or a desire by a number of people to try to, you know, shoot higher to try new things. And they might not have the immediate tools to do that or they might not have the confidence because they've never been in a position to do that or they're a little bit, you know, afraid of the blow back for maybe trying something different or suggesting something. That really comes with just like you said, professional development for a firm of varying size. I mean, if you're a large firm, you can easily invest in, you know, expansive leadership development and coaching and things of that nature. But how important do you think it is for firms of all sizes, quite honestly, to have some sort of structured professional development program internally or even retaining the services of a coach or some executive out there who can help groom talent.Mike Cooper:You know, I think it's critically important. You know, and so everybody can gain from seeing how other people do things, from seeing how other industries and professions do things, the other perspectives that are out there. You know, we can't grow if we aren't learning, if we're not being educated, if we aren't being exposed to new things, different things. And so you know, not certainly smaller organizations may have less resources than very large ones, but they have resources to to do this. And there isn't a right way or a wrong way. But helping our people continue to learn is what is what fosters their growth. And so you know, pairing people up in apprenticeship kind of a model. It's an old school thing, but it's incredibly effective. If a young person is paired up with somebody who's more experienced in the field and they're working together on a project, but they're taking some time to spend talking about what we're doing and why we're doing it and how we're doing it.Mike Cooper:And a little bit of the background. You know, it always, it surprises me, but it shouldn't, how fast somebody newer to the profession can grow when we take the time to help them. The folks that come into our profession are really smart. They're really smart, they're really committed, they're hardworking. If we put in a little bit of time to help them they can grow very quickly. And then I think you mentioned something which is, you know, let's take advantage of some of the opportunities that are, that are out there where we don't have to do it all ourselves. So, you know, ACEC as an organization provides lots of opportunities for growth. Some of them in the form of webinars which are inexpensive and very easy to engage in. Others are in the form of more structured classes, which are a little bit more of a commitment, time and money, but you probably get a little bit more out of that. You know, that way. But there are organizations out there and places where we can find, you know, whether it's an executive coach like you said, or an organization that has educational programs where we don't have to figure this out or invent something, we can simply leverage the tools that are already out there that were created by somebody else and we can put them to use for us.Mike Cooper:And I think in some cases we, we learn from, you know, other industries and other professions and other organizations who show us new ways of doing things. We always take the biggest leap in our organization when we, when we're able to learn something, something that our profession isn't doing and we're able to adapt it and we're able to leapfrog a lot of what's happening and get into a new place be able to offer a different kind of a value proposition, maybe one that's unexpected and that's new.Mike Cooper:But then our clients who are really clamoring for and just didn't see being offered anywhere else. That opportunity comes from professional development. And in particular getting exposed to, to things happening outside of your organization. A long way around saying it's absolutely critical and there's no, there's no point in time where you reach a level where you don't, you don't need to continue to grow. You don't need to continue to learn. I think it'd be a sad day to wake up one day, you know, and say, you know what? I've plateaued. This is as good as it gets for me. You know, I come to work every day, you know, looking for those opportunities to learn something new, to do something new, experience something different to grow to, you know, I'd like to think that tomorrow I can be more effective, be better than I am today. I believe that's true, but only if I'm still learning.Host:Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's kind of ties up almost all the stuff that you said because if you have a strategic goal and a mission and you're able to foster a culture that pretty much enrolls everyone into that that mission. And you create, like I said, the culture that allows people to think maybe outside the box or look at opportunities that might not be readily present. And again, this also goes with the whole idea of an engaged workforce and a diverse workforce with different perspectives and different backgrounds who may be able to see things other people don't. You're able to look at new opportunities in the marketplace and like you said, offer things to clients or open up new client sectors that you never thought you had, which is the key to growth.Mike Cooper:Absolutely. And it is - a lot of these things tie together cause you know, you talk about some of these things in the context of you know, of culture and a learning organization. It's, it's, it's part of culture. The, the other, the other thing that learning does, I think is it's, it sets a foundation that says it is okay to experiment. It is okay to explore. It's okay to fail. In, in, in design and engineering we know that the first solution we come up with is very, is rarely the one that actually gets built. The one that actually is constructed. There's an editor of process that goes along. We get better, we get stronger.Mike Cooper:And one of the favorite stories that I heard when I was in school was the story of WD 40. Right? We all know what WD-40 is. The name WD-40 stands for water displacement formula number 40, the inventor so strongly about the 39 attempts that came before that that he named the product to celebrate that. His story was there was no way to go from one to 40, you know formula number one taught him something that he used to develop number two, which taught him something he used to develop number three, and so on and so on. And you get to 40. There's no way to go from one to two to 40. It was a scientific process, a process of discovery. He realized that one through 39 weren't failures. They were steps right on the way to success. And a learning organization I think frees up people to explore and to look for new ways. Understanding that if, if this one way, if this thing doesn't work out, that's not a failure, we'll learn something from it, we'll come back stronger and we'll get there. But that, that trial and error mentality often gets us some of the products to rely on every day.Host:Yeah, absolutely. I'd say it's always interesting to look at what we actually use every day and realize that the end product wasn't actually the goal of the company or organization actually doing something that's just a byproduct of it. It's, I think a it wasn't oh, I forget what I remember in the, in the early, you know, early 20th century when, you know, the rubber manufacturers and, and the, and the, and the petroleum manufacturers. And I think some of the things that we use, I was some nylon derivative, I think was a complete mistake. And, and that's, you know, something that, that, that we know today and I forget exactly what it is, but it's, it's interesting to look at that kind of history. So really, I, you know, coming in and looking at all of these different ways to organize and develop you know a firm - when you, when you acquire talent, how critical is that onboarding stage and how important is it to start laying the groundwork for this kind of more inclusive and open a workplace that, you know, puts an emphasis on, on culture, on mission? How critical is it in that first 90 day period to really get someone into that system?Mike Cooper:Yeah, it's, it's sorta like the story of the first impression where you, you know, you've got one chance to make that first impression. And in a lot of ways that sets the tone for the relationship moving forward. It's really, really important. We talk a lot these days about the difference between engagement and employment. And so if, if you want people to be engaged, if you want them to really feel like they're a part of something bigger and act that way, then it starts with the recruitment. Just as you said, we, you know, you to you want to get them engaged in the organization, even through the interview process. You want people to feel like this is a place where they could find a home where they could be a part of and would give them a real satisfying, rewarding kind of an experience.Mike Cooper:And boy, when you're in, when you're in a 50 year low in unemployment I don't know that I can emphasize enough the importance of recruiting new talents and pulling out all the stops. It has never been harder to find people because we are so over employed, right? As a country. And so you know, we want to begin on day one. In fact, even, I'm looking at interns differently. If you can bring interns into the organization and maybe not just for summer, but maybe they work year round part-time and they work full time in the summer, but we're, we're building a connection. And we're building a relationship. So that when they, when an intern is ready to begin looking for a full time job, they don't really have to look. They already have a home. They already understand. And that's something that our organization does. And I know a lot of organizations are looking at.Mike Cooper:You know, bring people on, making that first impression. Jeff, as you said we want our staff to stay. We want them to recruit their friends and people that they know perhaps to come to our organization. And the way to do that is to really get them engaged. You know, you've got to, you know, we're asking people to work hard in return. We've got to communicate with them and we have to share information. If you want somebody to feel a part of the organization, they have to know what we do, why we do it, how we do it. There's very few things out there that that for me are, you know, out of bounds that we don't share.Mike Cooper:You know, we don't share, I wouldn't share health history of, of our, of our employees. I wouldn't share compensation or salary information. I certainly wouldn't share information that I'm contractually prohibited to share. But, but beyond that we should be open and honest. We should be authentic and make sure people feel like owners, they feel like they're a part of this thing because that's when they're going to buy in and they're going to rally around our purpose and they're going to do the work that needs to get done to help the organization succeed. Sort of goes back to what we talked about earlier. People do everything in an organization, so the more engaged they can become, the more a part of the organization, the stronger the emotional connection is. That's going to translate directly to the work.Host:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a lot of really good food for thought. For leaders, organizations and, and kind of how to approach just people and people management. And just getting everyone together on the same page, bought in on the same mission and, and just following through to success.Mike Cooper:And Jeff it's more fun.Mike Cooper:People that we ask people to work really hard when you're part of a winning team and you, you know, you like the people around you and you and you, you're working well, a cohesive unit, then those are the people who wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work.Host:YeahMike Cooper:Absolutely. And that's a part of this too. We work really hard, you know, there's gotta be a part of this that we really enjoy.Host:Yeah. And when you have that sense of ownership that that organizational success becomes individual success because you are part of that process and if you're part of that team, yeah. That, that, that really makes it personal. And it's beyond the, the numbers of course, you know, benefits and all that. And of course, salary, everyone you know, is working not just because it's personally beneficial and enriching, but also because, you know, you have to pay the bills. But that other intangible quality, that you're accomplishing something and that you're moving the ball forward and you're doing something greater than just, you know, on its face it could just, you know, be a a design task, could be an administrative task to be anything like that. But and I think the other, the other story right, is, is for NASA, you know, when, when they brought people down to Kennedy and they were talking to everyone about, you know, the space program and you know, a guy, a janitor was, was, you know, you know, sweeping the floor and, you know, the, the government people said, you know, what do you do here? And the janitor said, I'm, I'm putting somebody on the moon. Because he wasn't, that was, that was the overriding purpose of their existence there all the way down to the person who is sweeping the floors, they're all part of the same team that's going to put a man on the moon. So I mean, if you can get that into an organization that just leads to success.Mike Cooper:That's a great, it's a great story. You know, I, I sometimes I look at the organization like a jigsaw puzzle in that there's lots of pieces and if one piece is missing, it's not complete. And it doesn't matter which piece it is. And I think it echoes your story really well. We all are and we need every one of us to get where we want to go. That's a, it's a great story and I, and you hope that all of your people will, will feel that way, that we've done what we need to do so that the people who are part of the organization really feel that way. That that's, we're all, we're all here for that single purpose. That's great.Host:Absolutely. Well, Michael, thank you very much for, for taking the time today. There's a lot more to go into and I want to come have you back on the show because there are other aspects to this which we need to cover because I think the next time we should talk about how that new generation of engineers coming out of universities, the way they view work, the way they view their purpose. Like you said, it's moved into more of a purpose driven field. And how firms are kind of changing to meet that because it's not just a goal of people management. And then you get into the other issues that are equally important for clients to look at, which is, you know, CSR programs and things like that, which you know, potential clients are looking at more than just delivery. They're also looking at the type of organization that they're contracting with to do work for them. And that's a whole different, different conversation to have, which we should have pretty soon.Mike Cooper:Well, I would love to come back. I would look forward to that. There's an awful lot to talk about and all of it is really important. The next generation are not just going to be, you know, our employees. They're going to be leaders of our firms. They're going to be our clients. They're going to be leaders in government and in community. And so understanding, you know, their sensibilities and where they're coming from and leveraging that is going to is help all of us get to a better place. Got to start the conversation. Oh, that's great.Host:Yeah. Well, Michael, again, Michael Cooper, he's managing principal of HPD out of Southfield, Michigan. And he is a new vice chair on our executive committee at ACEC and look forward to seeing you, of course, at our conference coming up in in April. And hope to have you on sooner than that. Thank you again for being on.Mike Cooper:You're welcome. Thank you, Jeff. Have a great day.Host:You too.

leadership russia michigan microsoft nasa john f kennedy sort nelson mandela csr american council wd leed southfield michael cooper hed microsoft corporation hpd host welcome jim rowan acec host you

The Chairman's Corner - A Look Back at 2019 and What Lies Ahead for 2020

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2020 38:45

Engineering Influence welcomed ACEC Board Chair Mitch Simpler back to the show for his quarterly Chairman's Corner podcast. In this episode, Mitch looks back on a successful year for ACEC and gives his thoughts on what 2020 could bring for ACEC and the engineering industry. Transcript:Host: Welcome to Engineering Influence, a podcast by the American Council of Engineering Companies. We're very pleased today to welcome back to the show, our board chair, Mitch, Simpler for his quarterly chairman's corner podcast. And now that we're in the second week of a new year and a new decade, it's a good time to look back a bit on 2019 on what was a very busy and successful year for ACEC and maybe you know, a little bit of look forward to what the new year might bring. So Mitch, welcome back to the show.Mitch Simpler: Well, thank you for having me back and Happy New Year to you and to all the listeners.Host: Yes. Happy New Year.Mitch Simpler: And you know, my wife gets very depressed at the end of the year and I tell her, I said, this is an opportunity. It's, it's, you've gotta look for it as these are opportunities and challenges not to be to be depressing, but to be enlightening and energizing. So here we are.Speaker 2: Happy new year. Yeah. And really when I came on in May of last year with ACEC, it was right at the conference in, in Washington and my introduction of course to ACEC but then also you, you assumed the role officially is as board chair a lot's happened since. What are your big takeaways from the year for the industry and from the association?Mitch Simpler: Well, and so let's just talk about the year in general. It was, it's been a very unique year because as you know, we had a, a, a previous president, CEO had retired after 20 years. So as I came on board as the chair and when I was actually chair elect, we brought in a whole new management team for ACC national, which has been both the a blessing and a bit of a curse. The curse is that there was not a lot of intellectual an institutional knowledge that was carried forward. And that's actually part of the blessing. We did not have a lot of baggage, but the short version is having a new staff starting with Linda Bauer Darr - she brought in as a CEO, new president, but then we brought in a new CEO, CFO and, and new legislative representation a lot of, a lot of people that needed to get brought up to speed as to who we are and what we do.Mitch Simpler: And then on top of that for reasons that I'll make clear later, I hope is the fact that we determined that we needed to upgrade and actually replace our strategic plan. So we've really had a lot of major challenges for the team, both the volunteer leadership, which was new. That would be me and Manish, the good news is we were able to adjust the bylaws that allow the previous chair to stay on executive committee to help smooth the transition out. And then having Charlie G on board who is now the chair-elect gave us a really clear set of guidance and guiding principle leaders that can help transition the organization into the future. But some, some real big challenges. And I think all had been met with enthusiasm and the team has done a terrific job to to move the needles across the board for ACEC, both on membership relationship building between the member offices and national opening up the national doors so that the states and the member firms really get a better understanding of who ACEC is, what our role is and what our responsibilities are and what we do for them.Host: Yeah, I kind of felt that change coming in. Of course, I didn't have a lot of the institutional knowledge you know, coming in to ACEC, but I noticed that you had, that feeling of change was afoot and you had pieces being moved on the table, but really no sense of disruption. That energy, that enthusiasm was evident when I came on board. And of course, you know, Linda's been a real force in that moving this forward and kind of expanding our scope and looking bigger and trying to raise the profile of the industry. But I noticed that seemed to be kind of universal, you know - let's move this forward, and let's keep things going. So it's been an interesting ride that this level of enthusiasm hasn't waned at all. And has kind of opened new doors. Of course. You know, one of the perfect examples of that I think was the first time that we really as a large team went to a FIDIC conference of course this time in Mexico City where we had policy. Of course I came down to do podcasts. You, you were there and you were presented at the, at, at the conferences. Well as did Linda. And that was a new experience. You know, what did you think of that?Mitch Simpler: I t was my first FIDIC conference for reasons that I don't recall. I was not able to make the previous, it is sort of, it's customary for the incoming chair as well as the chair to attend the FIDIC conferences. FIDIC for those listeners who aren't familiar with it. It is essentially the international version of ACEC and ACEC U.S. is one of 102 member countries that are members of FIDIC. So aside from the fact that it was my first FIDIC convention I have to tell you, it was truly exciting this year since the conference took place in Mexico City. It was my first time there. It was challenging because I don't speak Spanish and neither did many of the people there.Mitch Simpler: Thank goodness is many of them speak English so that, that really made it well. But, but it's really an opportunity for ACEC to collaborate with over 102 other countries that all represent the FIDIC organization and it really you communicate on a truly global scale. And it was also important for us to be there this year because the new president of FIDIC is Bill Howard who is from CD Smith, CDM Smith, I guess it is who was sworn as a new president's two year term. So the now the leadership of FIDIC is an American. Now - Bill has served on their board for a number of years. People who remember Greg Thompolis - a former chair of ACEC national - also was president of FIDIC several years ago. So ACC has played and will continue to play a major role on the FIDIC front. But it was interesting as a member of ACEC to go down there and listen to the issues that they struggle with, many of which are the same issues that we struggle with at ACEC.Mitch Simpler: They have the - and that's the issue of commoditization of engineering. Quality based selection. You know, how, how do you, how do you pick the right team for the right reasons. And so these are all the same missions that ACEC has FIDIC has, they have one additional challenge, which is, and we have sorta been blessed in the U S and we're kind of a bit of an a bubble but issues of corruption and, and intellectual property theft and all kinds of things that we have sort of dismissed over the years here. Because we have a much more open society. Those issues are still very prevalent at the international level. And FIDIC's challenge has been to try to open that up and and make the international market as clear and open a place for business as it is here in the U.S. And so they have their own challenges.Mitch Simpler: The fact that we have significant American representation in FIDIC both at the leadership level as well as on the FIDIC's probably single biggest claim to fame is the fact that they have prepared a number of international contracts for design professionals. These contracts have become sort of the gold standard now. And many of the documents that we use as part of ACEC out of the EJDC have come out of a basis from the FIDIC format. So very interesting. Met some amazing people down there. We were able to as ACEC also I guess I'll say reopen or reinvigorate our eyes invigorates the communication between our counterparts here in North America as well as those in South America and particularly Central America and Mexico. There's a number of things that we think that we have more in common than in difference. They look to the U.S., FIDIC does as well as our South American counterparts. Look to the U.S. as true leaders from a technology design practice and best business practices. You know, where the, where the where the sort of the envy of most of the world and they are looking to us to help them raise their standards. And and we certainly made it very clear that we're open for business and would be willing and, and would love to help.Host: I remember the enthusiasm of our Mexican counterparts and talking to us and, and reestablishing those ties and it was, it was, it, you know, very optimistic. We share so many common interests both economically and then also in the need for infrastructure investment. You can see how those markets can mutually benefit each other. And it's good for ACEC to be able to open that door back open for collaboration.Mitch Simpler: Yeah. And it was, it was refreshing the, the fact that the Mexican counterpart for ACEC, that whole team came up to Chicago for our fall meeting and and continued the conversation. So this is, it's very encouraging and and I look forward to see how it how it develops.Host: Absolutely. it was a valuable conference. And it was, it was especially interesting the subject that you presented on was technology. And how that's kind of changing the way that the industry is working and the way that the new cadre of engineers coming up through the ranks and in the university and, and the younger professionals are able to use technology to do things that were, you know, time consuming and inconceivable, you know, only, you know, a decade or so more go. And then how that technology is, is, you know, how it's being spread across the world. Because one of the things about FIDIC is that they include Western Europe, of course, North America Asia, but then also some developing areas of the world that don't have access to that same level of technology. And the point you made about corruption and the issues of IP and really just doing business in an above board way.Host: You know, it's interesting to hear the stories from people in, you know, Europe and Asia. Then also hearing the perspectives from countries like Kenya and, and some others where, where they want to have the same access, but they just don't because their economies are still developing. They don't have the access to the same technologies, the same legal provisions that American firms have. And then the other side of the coin is American firms that might want to be doing business in those regions. What do they have to be cognizant of and aware of? And it was really interesting to have that exchange and being able to be part of that firsthand. So it was extremely good conference.Mitch Simpler: Yeah, I agree. And, and, and for us to get a better perspective on the globe, the global business of what ACEC represents. And as you said, Europe has a definite approach and they are embracing technology, but there are a lot of countries which just simply cannot. And they turn to us as, as true technology leaders, what can we do to help them leverage whatever aptitudes they have to be better, better designers and better producers. And I think that using the FIDIC forum is a terrific way for that information exchange to take place. And it does and it was really just really exciting.Host: Yeah, absolutely. And another big issue or topic of focus for us, of course, something that you alluded to a little bit earlier and has been kind of a a driving force throughout the year has been the development of that new strategic plan, which was adopted in Chicago officially. But that's, you know, the adoption is only the public part of it. There has been a lot of work behind the scenes that have been going on for a long time, which you have been deeply involved in. And it's going to set the stage for how ACEC moves forward and grows as an association and represents the dynamic and changing industry. You know, what, what's your and of course right now we're in the implementation phases of that plan which, which was still ongoing. What are your main thoughts about the plan itself? You know, how it came about and where we are really with, with, you know, the implementation phase right now?Mitch Simpler: Yeah. Well, no, it's a good question and, and that certainly let me digress real quick. So here I take over as chair. We decide that we're going to have, we're going to have a new budget, a three year budget. We have a new team of our paid professional staff starting with Linda and, and then decide, why we're at it, why don't we do a new strategic plan? You've got nothing else to do on your plate. So what the heck - and I'm being a little facetious. It was a lot. It was a lot of moving parts but, but certainly the strategic plan adoption the new strategic plan adoption I think has been a real success story. Manish Kothari was chair of ACEC before me and when I served as chair elect, I also served on the planning cabinet.Mitch Simpler: Manish challenged us on the planning cabinet to decide whether the current strategic plan needed to be updated or replaced. The planning cabinet unanimously recommended to replace the current plan as it was, the plan had really become more operational than it was strategic. And that's when the fun really began. We put together an incredible team of diverse leaders from a member firms both across the country and in different markets sectors, male and female. We had, we tried to get as diverse a group as we possibly get. The result from that process was that we developed a brand new strategic plan and that was, as you said, it was presented to the board of directors at the fall conference in Chicago. And the plan was unanimously adopted by the board. It was presented by one of the, one of our members as well as our, our strategic planning chairman, Mr. Greg Kelly.Mitch Simpler: The plan has been branded as being both bold and audacious and as a refreshing change, I guess from the previous plans. But a real hurdle as you pointed out was the fact that we now need to roll this plan out with real operational and implementation worthy goals. And that's where the fun really began. So part of the process that we're involved in now and we were going to be presenting the next stage at the EXCOM meeting in January is to put together the both the implementation details as well as the performance metrics that we're going to be able to use to measure the success of our collective performance on execution of the plan. So that's really where we are. My hope is to be able to present certainly this a pretty fleshed out skeleton of the implementation plan to the full board at the spring meeting in DC.Host: And being part of that, you know, the really the, the, I guess the think tank portion of it where we have all the, you know, a diverse kind of set of individuals and in groups within planning cabinet, then also internal staff talking about these goals and objectives. You know, it's, it's going to be interesting to see how it, how it all comes together because without going into detail, there are some themes and some ideas that are rising to the surface that are going to be, I think incorporated into the implementation and it's going to be some exciting, exciting things ahead. So yeah, it's been a very interesting time watching this evolve and develop from the plan, getting it approved. And now moving into this more, you know, more actionable stage of putting meat on the bones as far as, you know, those, those steps to actually get this in from paper into the reality of implementation.Host: But it's critically important. I think that having this kind of a guiding strategic document really helps crystallize this idea that ACEC can really become the preeminent entity that's really in the popular thought space, both in public debate on the Hill, but then also talking to a larger audiences, the American people other industries about the importance of, of engineering. And this is the kind of document that allows ACEC to kind of get that accomplished. And it's going to be interesting to see how it, how it all develops. And yeah, spring's going to be very interesting to see what is going to be presented in Washington, DC.Mitch Simpler: And I agree on everything you've just stated, but to me the, one of the key elements of the strategic plan and it's mentioned throughout is the role to become thought leaders and our role as, as the the harbinger of thought leadership in the engineering industry. And that's certainly one of our strategic goals across all of the, the various components of the plan. But it's becoming the true thought leadership developing thought leadership, executing thought leadership and being the resource for thought leadership in the engineering community. And we've been doing it and now we've tried to make it a little more, I'll use my term official that that's our strategic goal. And and it is, as you say, very, very exciting. It was a huge lift and I, and I will tell you between the volunteers and the staff, it has been an incredible process. And then my hats are off to all of you who participated because it is a it's a real challenge. To do it right it takes an incredible amount of time and patience and dedication and that has been measured across the board from everyone who's been involved. And I thank all each and every one of them for doing it - you includedHost: Well, thank you. And it's, I'll tell you the thought leadership piece is something that we're looking at and trying to figure out how best to package and create kind of a platform for thought leadership. But it all really comes down to the people listening to this podcast, our members. You know, we have the great benefit of having some extremely hefty talent out there people who are leading in their fields and are experts and our ability to communicate a thought leadership really bubbles up from the members that we have. So, you know, if there's anyone out there who has an idea or as a who or is, you know, hey, I've been thinking about this one issue that I really think we can talk about, or I can, I can talk about, reach out to us, because we'd love to get that in a place where people can see it.Host: And our best position from ACEC is to be that amplifier of our, the voices of our membership. So anybody out there with an idea, something that they're an expert on, something that they want to talk about, let us know, because we'd like to help you with that. I'm gonna put in that little plug there because you know, we're, you know, in DC you know, we're, we're, we are staffers. We're, we're communicators. We're lobbyists, you know, association people we're not day to day engineers. And, and our talent is, is really with the States and with our membership. So don't be shy, contact us. So I, you know, really the big tent pole items for 2019 something that we haven't really had the opportunity to talk to you about before on the, on the show.Host: But it was really interesting was your trip to Asia as part of a commerce delegation to Indonesia, Thailand and Vietnam with Secretary Wilbur Ross, Commerce Secretary Ross to talk about American business and what can be done to bring open markets of course in Asia. And then also to create opportunities for U.S. Firms. You were part of that, you had meetings with presidents ambassadors and high level staff in those countries. What were your main takeaways? What were your thoughts on, on the success of that trip?Mitch Simpler: Well, you know I'll kind of back it up a little bit. Much like the FIDIC meeting, the meeting in, in the trade mission to Southeast Asia was very exciting and incredibly challenging. First, the members of the trade mission in addition to Wilbur Ross and his team from the commerce department was the import export bank, the overseas private investment corporation, otherwise known as OPIC, the U.S. Agency for International Development, otherwise known as USAID, the U.S. Trade and Development Agency, USTDA and the Department of State. Those are the government's side of the trade mission. And on the private side we had firms that represent gas companies, Boeing, Citibank, Lockheed Martin, but more specifically ACEC and Manish Kothari and I - Manish being the previous chair of ACEC, my immediate predecessor and I were the only two professionals representing professional design firms on the and the trade delegation. And it was really a unique opportunity for us and the fact that we were representing 7,000 member firms and that that little detail was not lost on anyone on the mission that we actually had more a team behind us.Mitch Simpler: In addition to the 700,000 members that represent the firms ACEC was really very, very well positioned and we were, as you pointed out, we were able to meet with key ministry level members as well as the presidents and premiers from Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand. Our simple message was that we all, the members of ACEC are open for business with each and every one of these countries. Provided we can be assured that we will be paid in full and in a reasonable period of time that our intellectual property will be honored and respected, which has been sort of the biggest problem with billing work, particularly in Southeast Asia is that you can do design work and next thing you know, your design is popping up everywhere and you're not involved because they have essentially taken your IP, your intellectual property. We - Manish and I, were convinced that our message was heard and well received by all the members of leadership within these countries who also recognize that ACEC represents the best of the best design firms on a global scale.Mitch Simpler: And if you want us to be able to work on your projects in those countries, they need to be clear and open about how we're working, how we get paid and, and how our intellectual properties will be respected. And that message was made very loud and clear and very well received. And our hope both through the commerce department as well as through the individual firms that are doing actively doing work over there now that we will be able to continue the conversation and and get more firms actively involved. They are all doing incredibly well from a, from an economic development standpoint. And it certainly would behove any and every American firm to get involved to the extent that they are able, because it is, it is a booming economy and will soon be, it's right now that the Asian countries represent the third largest market segment and third largest economy. And we need to be more actively involved. My hope is that we will.Host: Yeah, I think it's, it's, you know, there's a great, and again, you know, ACEC being part of that trip you know, with how many companies and professionals that we represent and that, that, that massive force behind that name. It's also important to kind of point out that as far as it, as the, as the trade mission went, we were the only professional trade association that was part of the trip. Everybody else was part of a company or....Mitch Simpler: Yes, they were there with a very pointed mission to sell their specific product. And we were selling an idea and I'll tell you, it was, it was very well received. And by the way, including the companies that were there saying, you know, we need to talk to you guys about help design facilities for us over here because they all want to look. It's a huge economic booming area. Right now one of the big issues was the fact that there is an average of $40 billion trade deficit in favor of those countries against the U.S. and getting us companies to invest and building projects in Southeast Asia, but using U.S. firms and us products was really part of the mission statement. And I, and I, that was not lost on anyone there, including the companies that accompanied us to Southeast Asia using American companies to do their design and build and construction and using American products and the whole thing. It was, there was, it was a home run.Host: I mean when it was Tesla, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, I mean some and some of the larger players in the oil and gas, natural gas fields. I mean, and also creating those inroads with those companies that are going to be making those investments. And then from a national security and more strategic position is that, you know, the big, of course name on the block there is China and there's a, there's, you know, with, with the belt and road initiatives that China's doing and their investments in the region that those countries are looking for other partners in the landscape.Mitch Simpler: They are looking for alternatives, because I think the gloss has worn off the belt and road concept and they're now beginning to realize that that's not a good spot for them to be in. Because China has really started tightening, no pun intended, tightening their belt on those countries and they're saying, look, we need alternatives. We need, we need better solutions from outside of China. And we were there to help.Mitch Simpler: By the way, having both the city there as well as USAID and the Import-Export bank gave them funding opportunities that they would have otherwise not had.Host: I can tell you from you know, the reciprocity side. I mean, after you came back in short order, before the end of the year, we had about two or three meetings inside our DC office with representatives from the region and including Vietnam who were very interested in talking to us because like you said, you know, we are the gold standard. We have that knowledge base. We have that just that ability to improve of course their own practices and to influence how they are shaping the rules and regulations that govern the work that's done in the region. But then also having that ability to create and build the best infrastructure possible for a market that is just growing by leaps and bounds. And, and for any company out there that's listening any CEO who's saying, you know, it might be interesting to get involved in international work with a country in the region you know, reach out to us because Dan Hilton on our team did a very good job of, of helping to provide the background, of course, to help you guys get out there and make it a successful meeting.Host: But, you know, we are tied in with still USAID, the Export-Import bank those government entities we have a very good relationship with them and we can help firms out there that earth that are looking at getting involved in those markets. And we can be that door opener. We can be that convener to help make those relationships happen. So if you're interested in it, please reach out because you have a lot, you know your membership in ACEC goes beyond just you know, what you see day to day. There's a lot of work going on to on the international front. So, you know, take advantage of that.Mitch Simpler: Absolutely agree. As I said, very exciting. Clearly an opportunity and a number of our member firms are already actively involved in Southeast Asia and this is really an opportunity for other firms now to be able to piggyback on the successes that have already taken place.Host: Yeah. so that's, that's it was a busy year both domestically and internationally, a lot of things are going to be going into 2020 that, that were started of course in 2019. The strategic plan being one I guess what's your outlook? I mean, not just from ACEC, but also as a leader and an executive in the industry. You know, what's 2020 looking like from your seat in the C suite?Mitch Simpler: Well, from my lips to God's ears I'm, I'll use the term cautiously optimistic. You know, I think everyone is, is feeling the success over the last several years, but particularly for 19, we would love for it to continue. But those of us who've been in business long enough, and this is my 43rd year with JBB and 33 years as a partner I've seen economic booms and I've seen economic busts. And just when you think when things are going good and they're going to be sustained, you know, the floor drops out. So I'll use my term cautiously optimistic for 2020. We certainly have, we as a firm we as a region have a, just a real boom going on in the Northeast construction boom in the, in the engineering industry is is feeling it in a very good way.Mitch Simpler: We have reasonable expectations that this will certainly continue through 2020. We know, obviously this is an election year and that's when, you know, funny things happen and somebody says the wrong thing at the right time and next, now the market takes a tank. So my term cautiously optimistic is just that for that reason, I've ever reason to believe that it will continue going. Certainly in a matter of similar, not necessarily, I'm not sure it will continue at this a fevered pitch, but, but certainly continue at reasonable growth. And the reports that I've gotten back through my network as chair certainly through my fellow CEOs is that this, I think this cautious optimism is, is pretty much spread out across the country. And it's, that's good news. Anything we can do to continue that process we should be doing. Absolutely. Tell me what that is. I'll be happy to do it.Host: Well, it's going to be an interesting year. I, without question, when ever you have it you know an election year like this, it's always going to be very interesting. And we're going to be very active in it from our position to help the candidates understand the importance of the engineering industry to see all the policies that are out there that benefit us from, from, you know, issues related to workforce, immigration resiliency, climate change, things like that, that, you know, we have a part to play. And we have a voice and we want to have that voice included in the policy debate. And that's going to be up to us to make sure that happens.Mitch Simpler: Right. And this is the what's the right word? A a not so honest plug for the PAC, but this is where the PAC becomes so critical. And then the good news is I was, I got my, my notice that the PAC has exceeded $1 million again for 2019 and congratulations to all of those who contributed. It is an absolute, probably the single best arrow we in our quiver for the success of ACEC members and our advocacy program is the PAC. And this year will be the year that it was ever going to be something worthwhile to have. It's a PAC during this presidential election. And so kudos to all of those who, who contributed kudos to ACEC for being able to continue to grow the PAC and use it in our advocacy and amount of, to which it was intended. And that's, this year will be that test year. It's, it's disappointing that for the last four years, we've not been able to get an infrastructure bill passed. But, but we certainly have every reason to believe that this year could be that year.Host: And again, as it happened with the 2016 election, infrastructure was more than just a back burner issue. It did come to the forefront. Hopefully that happens again. And, and the PAC enables us to keep that conversation going and to introduce, of course, our industry to more Members of Congress. Of course, the significant number of freshmen that are in Congress right now who are going to be up for reelection you know, they're going to want to know what's happening. And the PAC, the townhouse that we have of course in Washington right now, which Dave Bender is overseeing being able to have people in and to have those meetings, it's critically important. So yes, thank you for all who have donated. And the PAC is a, is a potent weapon. And, and, and it's, it's said a lot about in DC that, that, you know having one of that size is the kind of thing that separates you from a crowd and, and has you and your message taken a lot more seriously. So breaking that million Mark is, is a, is a big landmark that really sets us up for for a good 2020.Mitch Simpler: All right. Fingers crossed.Host: Yeah. Fingers crossed.Host: Exactly. I guess that that kind of you know, I think that's a good note to, to kinda end on. It's a cautiously optimistic for 2020. Anything else that you want to add before we sign off?Mitch Simpler: No, other than it's been a real pleasure to work both with Jeff, with you and the entire ACEC team at national and you guys make us all look good, but it is not lost on any one of us. That it is you, the, the staff that make ACEC the success story that it is. And thank you all. And I wish everyone a very happy, healthy and safe new year. And I will see you actually on Wednesday.Host: Yes, absolutely. And thank you for that. And we will see you for our EXCOMM training and the year is kicking off with a fast pace and a very packed January. So we really look forward to an exciting year ahead and talking to you in the future. And thank you very much for taking the time, Mitch, and Happy New Year.

The Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure and Envision

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 17, 2019 21:53

Engineering Influence welcomes Anthony Kane, the President & CEO of the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure to discuss the Envision program for engineers and the projects they design. Learn more about ISI at www.sustainableinfrastructure.orgTranscript:Host: Hello and welcome to another episode of Engineering Influence - a podcast by the American Council of Engineering Companies. This morning we are pleased to welcome Anthony Kane to the show. Anthony is the president and CEO of the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure. Based in Washington, ISI was established in 2009 by the American Public Works Association, the American Society of Civil Engineers and yours truly, the American Council of Engineering Companies who collaborated with the Zofnass program for Sustainable Infrastructure at the Harvard University Graduate School of Design to develop Envision - a frameworks for sustainable infrastructure development. Anthony, welcome to the show.Anthony Kane: Thank you.Host: So how did the Envision framework come to be and kind of tell us a little bit more about ISI, your background, and how you came into all this.Anthony Kane: Absolutely. Well, Envision as you noted was really a collaboration, which is exciting from the beginning. It was about working together and coming to a consensus. So both on the ISI side where ASAE, ACEC and APWA got together and decided to collaborate in creating envision. At the same time, I was formerly with the softness program at Harvard working on a sustainability rating system for them as well. And the two organizations, the softness program at Harvard and ISI got together and decided that it would really be productive for us to combine our work. And it's very exciting because I think at that time we each had very good content, very good ideas, but it was through that collaboration and merging of the two tools that the sort of another level of value was realized in the system. And that was Envision version two that was launched in 2012. And so that was very successful and, and had a long run and we just now recently released Envision version three really following on that success. We released that in 2018.Host: So in your experience from coming from the academic side and then industry, I mean is this something which has happened in, in your experience a lot where you have maybe the trade associations or the groups that are engaged on the industry side of things, reaching out and trying to work with academia to, you know, improve or to set kind of a standard practice or, or kind of a framework to help guide a lot of their best practices or formalization of tools and talents for professionals?Anthony Kane: I wouldn't say that it's common, at least in my experience. I hadn't seen it happen very often but I think it is happening more than it used to and it is really exciting because I think there's a lot of opportunities there. And that was really one of the draws that incentivized me to come from the research end because it's very enjoyable doing university research. But this feeling of when you're partnered with the industry and practitioners, there's a realization that your research, the work that you're doing can have a direct impact on the world, which is often what's missing on the academic side. So I think that marriage is really important and brings a lot of value to these types of collaborations.Host: So you're on version three right now for Envision. So what are, what are the core pieces of that? What's the framework of the Envision platform?Anthony Kane: So Envision encompasses 64 sustainability indicators, which we call credits. And those are divided into five categories of quality of life, leadership, resource allocation, natural world and climate and resilience. And part of the genesis around envision version three was one that Envision version two was six years old at that time, kind of needed a little bit of an updating, but at the same time had been developed and written prior to Hurricane Sandy, some of the natural disasters that we had seen. And we realized that over that six years are as an industry, our understanding of resilience and different sustainability criteria had really changed and evolved. And it was time for envision to take all of that knowledge and new experience and incorporated into indicators that the rest of the industry can use.Host: That was an interesting time because I think that, and at the time I was, I was involved but not on the Hill but, but I had watched everything happen with Sandy and that seemed to be a really shift. That was a moment of a shift in perception of even from the policy side, but also I guess industry side about, okay, how do we actually build so that we can anticipate these things because the storm was so remarkable in its destructive power. Also in the geography of where it hit. And it. was kind of a game changer in that, in that respect. How, how did that influence a lot of the work that went around that?Anthony Kane: Sure. Well, I think what we realized was that something that we probably intrinsically knew, which is that these systems are the interconnections and the interdependencies of these systems are far more complex than we probably appreciate it. I'd say don't say we didn't know. I think we knew, but we maybe didn't appreciate how important the interconnectedness is. And so that's where we've really changed and evolved our understanding of resilience from an early concept of maybe just sort of withstanding these things on a individual basis, can my project withstand a hurricane?Anthony Kane: Or can it withstand a flood? Can it survive or rebound and evolving this concept of resilience into something much more than that, which is how does my project, my system interact with the other systems? How are they dependent? How is the failure of one system in a certain way going to impact the ability of my system to provide services or to function in the long term? So I think we're, we're just developing this sort of more robust understanding of the issue.Host: A network approach instead of just a single project approach. So as I kind of, with the Envision platform, if I call it a platform, but it's, it's that, that idea kinda has two core pieces that kinda hit the engineer itself. It's at that professional credential. But then also project validation and engineers that are engaged in this kind of makeup the ISI network. How big is the network currently and you know, where, where does that stand?New Speaker: Sure. So in terms of the envision sustainability professionals, that credentialed individuals, we've credentialed around 9,000 individuals. That's primarily within the U S and Canada, although we also now have a large user group in Italy. And then sprinkling of credentialed people in sort of about 30 countries around the world. Small numbers, but again, primarily US, Canada and Italy. We have verified about 90 projects with another hundred that are registered, meaning that they're going to pursue the verification. And those total about 23 and a half billion dollars worth of infrastructure that have completed the process and another 20 to 22 billion that are the registered projects coming through. So we do see a pretty big intake. And then the membership, which is just one caliber for ISI, we don't necessarily require membership. But if people want to receive discounts or participate more with the Institute, we have a membership program. And right now that's about 300 companies, which primarily are the engineering firms, but also construction firms and different groups. We have a sprinkling of other associations and nonprofit organizations and then about a hundred government agencies. So sometimes it's a city government, county government, a department or bureau, airport authority, things like that, that are public sector members. And then about 25 universities that participate as members and support through teaching Envision in schools.Host: Have you seen a is there a geographic, kind of a divide between the public agencies that have, that have signed on and, and have become part of the network? Are you seeing more coastal or is it, is a kind of across the board?Anthony Kane: Yes and no. So I think we do see a very broad distribution. There's an Envision project in Alaska is an Envision project in Hawaii. Kansas city is a big user, Florida, so we see broad distribution at, at at least an initial level. But certainly we do see depth of use in, in key areas like Southern California, Los Angeles, New York City. I think areas where they may be already had very robust sustainability programs in place, they were able to just very quickly take, Envision, adapt it, apply it and run with it. So we see a lot of projects in Southern California and New York, Miami is also coming up as a big key area for us. And then as I mentioned, Kansas City, some Midwestern cities have also been big adopters. And then now the Pacific Northwest. So Sound Transit and Seattle area. And I should say I'm talking about the US but we also have big use in Canada. So Vancouver is, is a major area as well as Montreal for us.Host: Okay. So if you're an engineer and you do want to get involved in this and you're looking at the credential, what's involved in earning that? And how is that kind of managed through ISI?Anthony Kane: And I might start with saying, you know, maybe why would you want to do that? We really see two values with envision for, for both the public and the private sector. So when we created Envision, there was this realization that some of the public agencies they want to do sustainable infrastructure. They don't maybe know how they don't have the in house expertise and it's a big lift to say, okay, we're going to totally change how we do things and we're going to come up with a framework and we saw a lot of RFPs going out asking the companies to kind of come up with the frameworks and the ratings for these different public agencies. And so we created Envision as in a way to be an a kit of parts, a toolbox, just an off the shelf thing that any public agency with no costs can just grab it and say this is going to be our sustainability framework.Anthony Kane: And it comes with an education program as we discussed the credential, it comes with a third party review if you want it, and that's a real value to the public sector users. I think where that benefits the companies as well is we saw the industry headed down this route again of every client having their own sustainability criteria, their own custom sustainability program. And that was just going to create a real burden on the consultants at the firms that every client you have, you're going to have to have a different way of doing stuff. So we think the real value, again with this collaboration and partnership between the private firms and the public sector agencies is that if we're all on the same page, it's a value to both agencies. It's a huge cost saving effort, saving and we can devote all that time and money and resources into just doing the sustainable project rather than figuring out how we're going to do this sustainable.Host: ...or defining what it would be.Anthony Kane: Exactly. So if ISI can help by just taking that first step off the table and saying here, why don't you guys just start with step two? That's where we really see our role and the value that we can provide and that's where going to get the credential. If that's something that you're interested in or if you think there's value in that, having the credential just means that you've invested the time you've studied envision and you probably know how then to go ahead and apply it on projects, whether you're on the public side or the private side, you have that extra knowledge. And so it's a fairly straightforward process.Anthony Kane: We have an online course which is seven one hour modules self-paced. You can watch however you like. There are also certified trainers around the world who teach in-person classes if you prefer learning in an in person setting. Those are offered as well. And then there is an exam and I say that, you know, we try to, it's not a kind of memorize this thing, go to a testing facility really since it's an online course, open open note exam. It's really designed to test that you've read the material and that you can review, envision. So they're kind of problem questions that you work through. And it's really the second part of the education program is the exam. And then you pass that and you've received your credential.Host: And then on the project side also you can have a project that's been that's been verified by the envision program. Give us kind of a snapshot about how that works and if you have a good real world kind of example.Anthony Kane: Sure. And we stress that we don't require the third party verification. So Envision is free to download and to use. A lot of public sector agencies use it and they do self-assessments and we encourage that. And again, as a, as a 501c3 nonprofit, our mission is sustainable infrastructure. So if people want to do self assessments, that's great. But there is a value in oftentimes public sector agencies and companies find value in having that third party recognition. So whether it's through accountability or or demonstrating to the community ratepayers, taxpayers that you did a good job, you know, it's not just us saying this. And then sometimes it's, it's to receive the award and, and also a learning process going through the review is a learning process for the project teams themselves. Have they applied, Envision the same way that ISI would apply it?Anthony Kane: Have we documented performance? So for those that do choose to go through the third party verification we see a range of projects from large projects like LaGuardia airport extension, a multibillion dollar projects all the way down to a couple of million dollar projects. Madison metropolitan sewage districts, pump station, small parks, and we see projects like that. So it applies to a full range of projects across different sectors as well. So we see a lot of projects in water and transportation right now, but energy is growing. It's probably our fastest growing sector of Envision uses energy. And then other sectors like environmental, parks, things like that. So we see a wide distribution. The process is fairly straight forward. It's all done through our online system. So credentialed individuals can go in, they can assign their levels of achievement they provide their documentation demonstrating why they met those achievements. And then it goes through a third party review process where ISI partners with our third party certified verifiers. So always there's a team of active professional in the industry with an ISI staff who review the submission.Host: That's great. I mean, that's, that's important. And I think that, you know, having it helps you know, they say, you know, rising tide lifts all boats kind of ideas. I mean, if you go for more verified projects and you have, you know, greater number out there and in, in existence, and that credential helps raise that profile and, and spread the word so that hopefully over time, you know, you have more engineers of course that are, that are credentialed, you have more projects are being verified and you get more adoption of those standard procedures. So that there is a, there's a guidebook to, to raise sustainability which will improve infrastructure in general. So it's a great mission. And that's, you know, it all ties together with that general idea of, of kind of the buzzwords. You know, it's just not engineering, but it's all over the place. The ideas of sustainability, resiliency, adaptability, and of course for engineering it has particular meaning.Host: You know, from your perspective, both in academia and then also working with industry, how have you seen over the past few years, even just the industry respond and evolve to really embrace these ideas of, you know, sustainability, resiliency, you know, it's become more of a, just, you know, something to put on promotional material.Anthony Kane: Right. And I think what I've seen that's been the biggest shift in the mindset is because sustainability was sort of born out of the environmental movement. There was an initial perception that this was sort of an environmentalist thing, right? And you know, all the typical term, you know, you're tree huggers and this and that. I think there's been a shift more into the mainstream now where a recognition that when you look at sustainability as being, you know, better for the social, environmental, economic aspects, you know, so it improves, community, provides better services, protects the environment, uses resources efficiently, drives a stronger economy. When you really boil that down, it's just better. It, it's not this add on. I think that's the shift. We need to move away from that sustainability that we're going to design a conventional project and then we're going to decide whether sustainability gets added on or not.Anthony Kane: The core of sustainability is that this is better infrastructure and so the question isn't do we add quality on at the end? We would never say that. We would never say, okay, we're going to design a sort of bare minimum project and then we're going to decide at the end whether we're going to make it good or not. Right. We don't think that way and I think that's the shift that is happening and needs to still kind of happen a little bit more is that sustainability is about quality, infrastructure, good infrastructure and I see it as an avenue, as an industry to break out of what has become unfortunately this process of kind of designing to minimum standards and I don't think anyone is happy with that and we want to do better, we want to do more and it's about also encouraging the public sector owners to demand more and better and higher quality. And I think sustainability and resilience is an avenue towards that. And to have them recognize that there's a value in this and that they should pay for it, obviously, and that the engineering community can provide that.Host: Yeah. I think that kind of ties into a lot of the things that we're trying to do internally with the association. It's the idea of even if you're building a water project free municipality, it's that recognition that it's it's not just an end in itself. It's part of a larger system. And that impacts on, that could have downstream impacts that may not be foreseeable if you're looking at the project a box. But if you take a holistic approach and say, you know, this is how it would affect a system and this is why it would be better from a cost of just public safety and just quality perspective, you know, as, as from our perspective with, with the consulting engineers and their clients and the relationship, it's that trusted advisor relationship of being able to say, you want X, but let's talk about what that end result is.Host: And then being able to provide that experience and that perspective of why you would want to improve it or look at it differently. And that's where the value comes in. And that's also the argument against the whole idea of not just designed to minimum standards but looking at engineering services as a, as a product instead of an actual service. And that's the, of course a commoditization argument that because you have these like the Envision framework is a good example is that you have this experience which was gained through either the credential or just of the bedrock principles of the platform. There's a lot of of value just there alone, which, which enables the engineer to become more of a, more of a participant, active participant and just someone who's going to be designing a product. So that, that altogether is critically important. If there's an engineer out there, there's an ACC member who's very interested in exploring this and learning more about it where should they go?Anthony Kane: So they can go to the ISI website, which is just www.sustainableinfrastructure.org and from there you can read on our website or you can create a free account, no charge. And from our account you can download the complete envision manual. You can see the different options to become credentialed. So it's a pretty low barrier to entry for people who are interested in learning more about it. I'd say just go ahead, download the manual and look it over.Host: Yeah. And then you were also in the office last week with the larger groups. So you do have, you know, you know, in person events, if you're in the area, in Washington you know, there's a, there's a chance that you could come in person and, and talk to some people.Anthony Kane: Well, our door is always open for people who, if you happen to be in the DC area to come by and we'd be happy to talk with you. But you mentioned, yes, there are a, we hold a quarterly in person training events here in DC just because we're here and our staff is here. But there are, as I mentioned, certified trainers around the country. So if you're interested, you could also contact us and we might be able to put you in touch with a trainer in your area. If you are interested in hosting an event, we do find that if interested as an individual, the online courses, a very great way to go. But sometimes it's, there's a real value in getting a team together and you develop this sort of okay culture of we're doing this as a team. And an in person training event is really great for that. We see a lot of public sector agencies that prefer the, the in person training because again, they're thinking of this as a culture shift, a program that they want to roll out and they get a whole team of people together.Host: Well, it's a fantastic initiative and a great objective. And Anthony, thank you very much for being on the show. We, hopefully you can come back on a kind of a, a maybe an update, you know, just a general update in the next year about where things stand and, and things that might be coming up. And if you ever have news or anything you want a break, just please just let us know and we'll, we'll have you on. Thank you. Thanks for having me on up. Thank you. Have a great holiday and new year and we'll see you in 2020.Anthony Kane: Thanks.

An Interview with Rep. Bruce Westerman, P.E.

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 1, 2019 21:41

Engineering Influence welcomed Rep. Bruce Westerman (Arkansas-4) to the program to discuss his career in engineering and in Congress.Transcript:Host: Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. It's a pleasure to welcome Congressman Bruce Westerman to the show. Congressman Westerman hails from Hot Springs, Arkansas and represents the state's fourth congressional district in the House of Representatives. He currently serves on the Natural Resources Committee and as Ranking Member on the Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee in the House. Congressman Westerman graduated from the University of Arkansas with a bachelor of science degree in biological and agricultural engineering. He is also a graduate of Yale University earning a master of forestry service degree or I guess master of forestry degree forestry. Yeah. which makes him doubly unique in Congress. He's not only an engineer, but he's also a Forester of which there are not many serving in the house right now. Pretty much just yourself, I believe. Just one. Thank you very much for coming onto the program.Rep. Westerman: Jeff, it's great to be with you and a real honor to get to be on an ACEC podcast and talk about engineering and how that's benefited me with my service in Congress. You know, I had a nearly a two and a half decade career in engineering before I came to Congress and really enjoyed that. I always tell people I like my job in Congress, but I could go back in and be an engineer tomorrow and be perfectly content.Host: Actually, I was here when you spoke to members of our senior executive Institute class last month here in DC about your background in engineering and how you've applied that to your work in Congress. And I think you made the comment of pretty much saying that, you know, members come up to you because you're an engineer and expect you to have answers on just about anything related to engineering. How has your professional work in the field of engineering helped you in your roles, both in your committee work and then also in the general work that you do as a member? And I believe you're also on the science committee previously how has that impacted your ability to be an effective Member?Rep. Westerman: Being an engineer in Congress is you know, it's a, it's a small group of us that are up here. There's not many engineers and like we already said, there's only one Forester in the, in the House. So if you've got a particular area of expertise, people really want to seek that out, especially your, your colleagues because you know, they, they generally feel like they can trust you if you want to give them, give them information. But also being an engineer probably has some drawbacks because of things like our code of professional conduct where we're not expected or we're expected not to comment on things we don't have expertise in, whereas a member of Congress, you're expected to comment on everything. So I after my freshman term, I got voted the quietest member of our freshman class, and I always told them this because you've got two ears to listen and one mouth to speak with.Rep. Westerman: So I'll try to try to be measured in what I say and try to be accurate in what I say. And of course Congress touches, touches everything from foreign policy to healthcare tax policy. And you really have to study and read a lot just to stay on top of the issues. But when those things come along, that engineering directly impacts it's great to have some history and background and the, the education and experience to be able to make pertinent comments on those those issues and add to the conversation. But I'll get asked to speak to a lot of engineering students around the country and I'll always tell them that the thing they probably don't realize now, but they'll will realize someday is that engineering is, is really glorified problem solving. You're learning a lot of science, a lot of math.Rep. Westerman: You're getting all the tools in the toolbox to go out and solve problems. But what you really learn going through an engineering curriculum and what you learned doing engineering on the job is how to analyze issues, define the problem, come up with a plan implement that plan and solve a problem. That's beneficial. Whether you're in Congress, whether you're working in a corporation, working in your own business or whatever you do. Those problem solving abilities are very valuable to have. And I think that's the best thing that engineering gave me and prepared me for to come here and serve in Congress.Host: That's really interesting point because one of the things that we talk about at ACEC and we're going to be doing a lot more with a new strategic plan that we just adopted on the role of engineering in society and engineer's not just as math side, the science side, but also the problem solving, the trusted advisor to clients of looking at a challenge and finding ways to innovative ways to solve those challenges and, and to apply their background and experience to, to those challenges. So that's a really interesting point. I do want to bring up the forestry side of things cause I'm a Penn State grad. We had a forestry program at Penn State. Not exactly Yale as far as, in terms of school, but I wanted to ask the question of how you got into and interested in forestry and where that kinda stems from.Rep. Westerman: Yeah, it's kind of a unique combination, I guess having an undergraduate in engineering and a graduate degree in forestry. But I grew up in, in Arkansas, in Hot Springs, Arkansas, where I still live today, beautiful area, lots of national forest, a lot of private forest. And the career that I had for two decades was working for an ACEC member engineering firm. And we specialize in the forest products area. So when people asked me about my engineering career, I basically say that if there's some process that takes a tree and make something out of it, then I got the opportunity to design one of those facilities during my career. So getting a forestry degree was very natural and beneficial in the the business that I was in because you always started with what's the resource, what, what resources available and, and what's the most valuable product we can make out of that resource and what kind of equipment and machinery best fits the resource to convert that resource into a product that can be sold in the marketplace. And plus, I've always loved the outdoors.Rep. Westerman: My Sunday School teacher was a world war II veteran. He, he flew in the bloody 100th bomb bombing squadron and he was just a fantastic guy, but he was, he was in the first forestry graduating class at the university of Arkansas at Monticello where our forestry school is. And I think Mr. Colepepper inspired a love for the forest and the outdoors and always wanted to go to graduate school. So it just, it worked out very well from a career and a personal goal standpoint to go study about trees. And another example of how being here in Congress and being the only, only person in the house where a forestry education and background, I work a lot on forest policy. And you know, the federal government owns a 193 million acres of timberland that's just in the Forest Service, but you throw in the BLM and the park service and you're between 250 and 300 million acres of public forest land.Rep. Westerman: You know, today we're seeing the extreme forest fires in California and there's a lot of work that could be just be done just on the forestry side. And I'm really excited about it because forests are the link between clean air and clean water, which gets into a lot of the things that we as engineers work on. And you know, forests are the natural carbon sequesters. They're the most - good forest trees, the most pragmatic approach we can have to clean environment. And it's the best offensive tool that we've got. So I'm doing a lot of work in the forestry side of things here in Congress. And you know, one thing that we're really looking at is this new concept of mass timber and it's a new building system that's been done in Europe for quite some time, but we can now build buildings up to 18 stories tall.Rep. Westerman: At my alma mater, the University of Arkansas, they just completed two five story mass timber dormitories. They had already built a mass timber library storage building. So it, it does a lot of, lot of things for you. Number one, it uses you can use locally sourced materials. These materials. Wood is on a dry basis, is 45 to 50% carbon, so it creates a huge carbon sink. It's a great insulating product, so you can build these buildings where they're sustainable and they don't use as much energy to operate and maintain. So a lot of positives with things like, wood, but then there's a lot of more research that can be done. We could use wood as feed stocks for chemicals. That's good feedstock for nanoparticles. I just saw something the other day where they've come up with a nano material made from wood cellulous that can be put into concrete that reduces the amount of Portland Cement and actually increases the strength and durability of the, of concrete. So the, I think the sky's the limit on what we can do with wood, which is a good renewable resource. And again, it, it's the lungs of the earth and the kidneys of the earth that cleans the air and cleans the water.Host: And that's really an interesting point. And actually we covered the mass timber issue in our most recent private industry brief that Erin McLaughlin in our office puts together. And again, that was the change in December of 2019. The ICC loosened the restrictions to allow buildings up to 18 stories in height effective in 2021 compared to the limit of six stories and commercial structures currently. So that's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting nexus between the forestry side and the engineering side.Rep. Westerman: As a result of those projects they're in, in Northwest Arkansas on the University of Arkansas campus, a company just up the road, Walmart, announced they're building a new corporate headquarters. Now you think about you know, the largest company in the world building a corporate headquarters, 15,000 people, there'll be housing. So it'll be like a small college campus. I think they told me three and a half million square feet, but they're going to build the whole facility out of Southern Pine mass timber grown and manufactured in Arkansas. So that's a great story to tell, not only from the environmental stewardship side, but these local economies for timber has grown or in rural areas. And it's a, it's a good story about how we can help the autonomy in rural areas and do something good for the environment at the same time. And there's a lot of other, I've been told that Microsoft, Adidas I think Google, there's a lot of major corporations that are looking to use more of this mass timber in there Buildings.Host: You know, buildings like that would fit in perfectly in Seattle and, and a lot of the Pacific Northwest especially. I do want to stay with the whole idea of economic development, but shifting over to infrastructure. You serve as the Ranking Member on the Water Subcommittee and of course WRDA is probably the most, the big bill that subcommittee is going to be working on for the Congress. That's a critical bill for our ports, harbors, inland waterways, locks, dams, just all of that, not just the, the seaside ports like Charleston or Savannah, but also the interior - moving goods around the country. Now with a lot of the members who listen to the podcast, they're getting a lot of their news from CNN. They're getting it from Fox and they're not hearing everything that's going on. You know, at the granular level. Where does the WRDA bill stand right now and where do you see when you see as the prospects of getting that through?Rep. Westerman: So we've got a good track record going on WRDA and we certainly don't want to disrupt that. I believe we've the past six years or maybe eight years, we've got a WRDA bill through Congress. I know the whole time that I've been here, we've got WRDA bills passed on a two year cycle and there seems to be bipartisan support to get a WRDA bill out next year. And I will say serving on T&I, and actually being the ranking member on water and environment subcommittee. I was very fortunate in this Congress, which seems to be highly partisan with, you know, the impeachment issues and everything else going on. We've got a pretty good track record so far on the water and environment subcommittee. We just got a bill passed off the floor to use the Harbor Maintenance Trust Fund to actually develop and improve harbors as it was set in place to do you know, nearly, you know, nine to $10 billion in that fund.Rep. Westerman: But it wasn't getting used to maintain harbors and it was put strictly put in place for that purpose. So I'm glad to see we pass it off the House Floor in a bipartisan manner. I hope the Senate will take it up and get that signed into law. We also just out of Committee this week we passed the the, the loan fund for wastewater systems. And I think that's a great opportunity to go in and you know, have the funding mechanisms so that cities can, can borrow the money to repair these wastewater systems, which the, I believe it was American Society of Civil Engineers gave our wastewater infrastructure a D plus grade. And I know as I travel around in my district there's a lot of work that needs to be done on both wastewater.Rep. Westerman: And potable water system. So we're, we're getting bills passed out of committee off the floor. Those, you know, it doesn't usually make Fox or CNN when you pass a water bill out of the House, but it makes a lot of difference across the country. And I feel very fortunate to be working on that. I'm really looking forward to working with the, the Subcommittee Chairman Grace Napalitano from California, Peter DeFazio, now the Democratic Chairman, and then Sam Graves who is the Ranking Member. We've got a commitment to, to get this word of bill done. And as you mentioned, it's very important to many parts of the country. You know, our navigable waterways took a beating in the flooding this past past spring and summer in my district and in many other places in the country. We've got a lot of work to do on that.Rep. Westerman: There's a lot of work that needs to be done on again ports and harbors deepening channels and that sort of thing. So there's, there's no end of, of opportunities and good things that we can spend money on that are, that are good for the country. And I think part of the reason we have a federal government, you know, provide for the common defense and, and take care of interstate transportation systems and that's what T&I does. So those are the things we should be prioritizing and putting our funds towards because it helps grow the economy and and helps, you know, the country grow, which helps us be able to provide nice things and, and people to have jobs and find, make their own way through life. So excited about what we're doing on the, on the water subcommittee.Host: And then I guess just to kind of wrap it up, I mean it, with everything going on in Washington, you know, it's so dominated the headlines by intrigue and pretty much inside the beltway, kind of partisan squabbles because it, you know, gets ratings. But you know, for your constituents and for members in the engineering profession out there who are listening and saying, okay, what's Congress doing? I mean, what, what message would you leave them with? As far as what Washington is doing and, and how things are, are looking at the end of the year and may shape up for for 2020?Rep. Westerman: Well, right now I would, I wouldn't give Congress a very good grade on what we're doing. I mean, we're operating under a Continuing Resolution, which is been a huge pet peeve of mine since I've got here. If there's, if there's one thing I would, if I could change it and I've worked hard to try to change it that's to get us back to what I call regular order, where we do appropriation bills. We debate those bills in the open, we offer amendments on the floor, pass all 12 of them out of the House. And if the Senate would take those up and go through the same process, we know our fiscal year ends on September 30th every year. And we need a new budget by then. We know the timeline, we know what needs to be done. We're just not getting it done.Rep. Westerman: And that causes all kinds of problems. When you look at, we don't even have a Defense Authorization bill done this year. And, and that's one of the primary reasons to have a federal government is provide for the common defense. If, if we can't get that done, if we can't get a budget done we really should be ashamed of the job that we're doing here. Now we can talk about some positive things on T&I. There's some small things that we agree on and they're getting done. And in the big picture, the politics are getting way too much in the way. And with the 2020 presidential election coming up with all the talk about impeachment it's really taken the focus off for the job of Congress. We've still got a huge, huge issue with healthcare in this country.Rep. Westerman: We've got huge issues with immigration we need to be addressing. But there are a lot of us that are working on those policies and we've got bills drafted and we're ready to go. But you just can't get it in committee. You can't get time on the floor. The USMCA, a trade agreement that would be great for our country has got bipartisan support. You know, Mexico is now our largest trading partner. So you'd have your first and second largest trading partners with a new agreement that would benefit farmers, benefit the whole country. And we can't get it on the floor for a vote. It could've passed two months ago with bipartisan support. So that's frustrating. But again, engineers are problem solvers and I keep looking at it, you know, how can I make a difference? How can we change this?Rep. Westerman: And it, a lot of times it's a slow change. And a lot of times it takes changes in leadership. It takes changes in which party is in control. But I see light at the end of the tunnel and you know, in on the positive side of things is the economy's doing quite well. We could do, we could be doing better and we see pathways to make that happen and I want to continue working on that and using hopefully what I learned studying engineering and doing engineering for a couple of decades and applying that here in the United States House of Representatives.Host: Well, Congressman, thank you very much. There's still a lot of work to do, but like you said, engineers are problem solvers and you're going to be here to help solve those problems. So really appreciate your time this morning and coming on the show and, and, and hope to have you on the future. And I guess today you have some votes and then you're out, right? The this is, this is the end of the week legislatively.Rep. Westerman: Yeah. This is a fly out day. It's a you know, I love my job, but the happiest day of the week are when I'm heading back to Arkansas, back to the real world. And the people I grew up with, the people I love and the people I get to represent here in this this great job in the U S so we do have a vote today actually a vote on the impeachment inquiry. So I wish we were voting on a WRDA bill or something like that, but it is what it is. And you know, I look forward to continuing to work is a lot of the things that people don't see that are here in DC is that when most members of Congress are back in our districts, we're working as much there as we are up here in DC. It's a different kind of work. And with, I've got a large rural district, so I spend a lot of time on the road, but always enjoy getting back.Host: Well, Congressman Bruce Westerman, thank you very much for being on the show. Again, this has been another episode of Engineering Influence from the American Council of Engineering Companies.

Dementia: Who Is At Risk And How To Manage It

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 4, 2019 12:57

Caregivers can spot dementia in numerous ways, ranging from a loved one forgetting about their favorite television program to suddenly not remembering to pay their bills on time. Learn who Dr. Cesar Torres says is most at risk of dementia and how to manage it. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: We’re speaking with Dr. Cesar Torres, a geriatric and house-call doctor at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Torres. Dr. Torres: Good afternoon. Host: Today we’re discussing dementia, a neurological condition that tends to develop in older adults and is characterized by memory loss and confusion. Dr. Torres, could you start by discussing how dementia develops in the brain? Dr. Torres: Certainly. Dementia develops as a result of the production of a neurotoxic protein called beta amyloid and, as a result of accumulation of this protein, nerve cells in certain areas start to die, specifically the memory centers of the brain - the hippocampus, the parietal lobe - and, as a result, people start to experience neurocognitive deficits. The most dramatic ones tend to be in the memory realm, but there are other cognitive deficits that also develop. And these eventually lead to significant social dysfunction and impairment, and it’s, unfortunately, very progressive. Host: Are there any populations of people who are at increased risk for dementia? Dr. Torres: Well, the number one risk factor for dementia is age. The older you are, the higher the prevalence. Recent estimates - generally, by the time you’re 70-75, there’s upwards of a 20 percent prevalence rate. Dementia encompasses a few different pathologies. There’s Alzheimer’s dementia, there’s Vascular dementia, there is a dementia associated with Parkinson’s, there’s a Lewy body dementia and there are some other much more esoteric subtypes. The vast majority are Alzheimer’s-type dementia, generally in the range of 60, 70 percent. After that, Vascular dementia rounds off the list, mostly around 15 to nearly 20 percent. And then, all the others. So, each one tends to have certain predispositions. For Alzheimer’s, there’s a genetic predisposition. It’s not 100 percent correlative, but there is a genetic predisposition and it can run in families. Vascular dementia tends to affect folks who have vascular disease - hypertension, coronary artery disease, people who are more prone to strokes. Brain trauma can predispose people to another subtype of dementia, and there’s a lot of focus now on this Traumatic encephalopathy that we see in a lot of professional, high-contact sports. Some of the other more esoteric subtypes - probably more of a genetic predisposition. So, as far as high-risk groups are concerned, that’s not an all inclusive list but there are certain groups that are at greater risk. But like I said, age is the number one risk factor. So, if people could stop growing old, we wouldn’t have a problem. Host: In these high-risk individuals and these aging individuals, what are some of the warning signs of dementia that families should start watching for? Dr. Torres: That’s a very good question and unfortunately, it’s also a very broad question. Generally, the onset of Alzheimer’s tends to be extremely subtle. You’ll tend to see problems with the acquisition of new knowledge or new information, the retention of new knowledge and new information. A family member asks how to get to a grocery store over and over again, in spite of having been there not too recently. You can see difficulty with social functioning as well, as the disease progresses. An individual who was extremely capable of managing their finances suddenly forgets to pay their bills and the electricity gets turned off. As things progress, now you can see personality changes. Sometimes the person starts to retreat into themselves - more withdrawn as some awareness of the social dysfunction starts to creep into their consciousness. Generally, the family will feel something isn’t quite right with their loved one and that’s when they actually probably bring it to the attention of their primary care physician or caregiver. The social functioning piece becomes more dramatic and is more distressing for folks, and they tend to pick up on that fairly quickly because it’s a dramatic departure from previous level of functioning. Host: If someone notices that a loved one is showing signs of dementia, where should they turn for help? Dr. Torres: Generally, most primary care physicians can do at least the initial screening. This generally can include blood tests, neuro imaging - in the form of a CT scan or an MRI. There are some blood tests that can also help rule out reversible causes of memory loss. But generally, the primary care physician should be the first point of contact. Host: Are there any treatment options available to help patients with dementia manage their symptoms or reverse the condition? Dr. Torres: Well, unfortunately, we have no way to reverse it at the current time. And that’s the Holy Grail. There have been many, many, many attempts to find drugs and various treatments but none have really been successful up to this point. As far as medications to modify the progression of the disease, there are a few, the most famous one being Donepezil, trade name Aricept and Namenda, generic Memantine. If you make a diagnosis of dementia, you don’t automatically use the medication. It’s best to have a conversation with the patient and the family and to decide whether or not the patient has reached the stage where they would benefit from this medication because all of these medicines has toxicity. What the medicines offer, really, are slowing the progression. And, you may see unfortunately temporary improvements in certain memory functions. But, unfortunately, over time, the effect diminishes and the disease starts to progress again. If you look at it on a bell curve, most folks will fall in the middle. They will get some, but there are those who can get a lot and there are some who, unfortunately, don’t get anything. The middle is where the bulk of the patients will fall. But on an individual, case by case basis, you can get a substantial amount of improvement. The biggest benefit, I feel, from starting treatment with these medications is time. You buy time. And time is very precious for people. So, on the basis of that, if we’re at a relatively early enough stage, I think it’s a worthwhile choice. Host: You mentioned a couple of different potential causes for dementia. What can patients do to reduce their risk of developing it? Dr. Torres: We have looked at lots and lots of different options - herbal medications, anti-inflammatories, Vitamin E - and the list goes on. But, to date, the only two things that I can recommend honestly? A healthy lifestyle and daily exercise. Daily exercise actually has evidence behind it. So, among all the other benefits that a person can obtain from daily exercise, prevention of dementia is another one. There was a sub-analysis of the Women’s Health Initiative Study that was done a few years ago that looked at the impact of exercise and noted that it reduced their relative risk by about 40 percent, as a result of daily cardiovascular exercise. The reasons for that, the mechanism behind it - still remains a bit unclear but I suspect it has to do with just overall benefits of exercise and physical activity. And it doesn’t need strenuous exercise also, but some form of daily cardiovascular exercise would be a great benefit. Well, I would recommend being very judicious with alcohol intake. There is an Alcoholic dementia that exists. Otherwise, avoiding smoking. Smoking can lead to vascular problems that can lead to Vascular dementia. Good sleep, weight control - things like that. Host: How do the dementia experts in the geriatrics program and the house-call program at MedStar Washington Hospital Center help patients and families achieve optimal outcomes? Dr. Torres: The number one way is in the diagnosis of the condition because sometimes it can present atypically. Sometimes it can present, as I said, very subtly. So, sometimes it has to be teased out. And again, it’s time. We can gain time for better interactions, more complete interactions with the patient and the family member. And there are a few conditions that can masquerade like dementia that we can treat and reverse the symptoms that we associate with dementia - the memory loss. The one that is most well known is depression. Depression can manifest itself as a type of dementia with memory loss, with loss of concentration, with apathy, as well. And so by treating that, the patient -- effectively treating that -- the patient can regain their function and their memory. Host: Could you give us an example of how you care for a dementia patient through the house-call program? Dr. Torres: Well, we have a very focussed approach with really educating and helping the caregiver meet the needs and ease the process for the patient. There’s usually a lot of frustration that the caregiver feels with their loved one as the disease progresses. And the deficits become more and more overwhelming. So, we tend to review behavioral techniques that can ease the tension in the household. We can help them with treating comorbidities to maximize their time at home. And we do everything we can to help the patient age in place, which is often a great benefit for everyone - avoids unnecessary trips to the emergency department, unnecessary hospitalizations. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Torres. Dr. Torres: It was my pleasure. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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Treating Skin Cancers on the Head and Neck

Play Episode Listen Later May 14, 2019 13:49

Skin cancer is common in the head and neck area because of exposure to ultraviolet (UV) radiation from the sun. Dr. Jonathan Giurintano discusses the most common types of skin cancers and how we treat them. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: We’re speaking with Dr. Jonathan Giurintano, a head and neck cancer surgeon at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Giurintano. Dr. Giurintano: Thank you so much for having me today. Host: Today we’re discussing treatment options for skin cancers of the head and neck. Dr. Giurintano, how common are skin cancers of the head and neck compared to skin cancers that affect other areas of the body? Dr. Giurintano: Skin cancers in the head and neck region are extremely, extremely common. The most common types of skin cancers (these are basal cell carcinomas, squamous cell carcinomas and melanomas), are found in areas of the body that receive exposure to the UV radiation from the sun. As the head and neck are the most frequently sun-exposed areas of the body, it follows that these are also extremely common areas that we see skin cancers, often occurring on the scalp, the face, the ears, nose, cheeks or on the neck. Host: In less visible areas of the body, cancerous moles, spots and other tissues often are removed. How do you approach treatment of the very visible tissue of the head and neck? Dr. Giurintano: So, it’s similar to other areas of the body, especially for larger skin cancers. The best treatment is typically surgical excision. Our colleagues, the dermatologists, are often times specially trained to perform a procedure called Mohs micrographic surgery. So, this is actually a very special type of surgery in which the skin cancer is removed and normal appearing skin around the periphery of the skin cancer, and this is sectioned by the dermatopathologist and looked at under the microscope at the time of the surgery to confirm that there is no further cancer cell present. By doing this, the dermatologists are able to not only completely excise all cancerous cells from the region of the skin cancer, but oftentimes are able to limit the amount of normal skin that must be sacrificed in order to completely resect the skin cancer. In areas such as the nose, the ears or the cheeks, there oftentimes is not much elasticity to the skin that allows for the defect in the skin to be closed simply. Other times, the defect might be closed simply, however the resultant scar might result in an unattractive cosmetic appearance. So, for these types of patients, we do have special ways that we can rearrange the tissue on the face in order to not only reconstruct the defect left behind by the resection of the skin cancer, but also do so in a way that the scar is camouflaged and has the most cosmetically appealing appearance. Dr. Giurintano: Well, basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma are the most common types of skin cancers that we treat. Other skin cancers such as melanoma require different types of treatment. Host: What makes treatment different for melanoma? Dr. Giurintano: So, one of the concerning features of melanoma is that we really cannot do Mohs micrographic surgery for melanomas. Whereas Mohs surgery relies on freezing the samples of normal skin from around the periphery of the tumor and looking at that sample under the microscope with very good success rates for ruling out the presence of cancerous cells, we know that that technology does not work quite as well for melanoma cells. As a result, most melanomas require pretty large resections. So, not only do you excise the melanoma itself, but oftentimes we excise at least one centimeter of normal appearing tissue around the periphery of the melanoma up to two centimeters of normal appearing tissue, dependent on how deep the melanoma is traveling underneath the skin. So, what initially starts out as a very small defect in the face, might soon become a defect that measures 4 or 5 centimeters and needs a major reconstruction. Another facet of melanoma is that it tends to spread very easily to lymph nodes in the neck. So, anytime patients have a melanoma in the head and neck region, very commonly we want to know what is the status of the lymph nodes in the neck. One of the special tools we have for helping determine the lymph node status in the neck is something called sentinel lymph node biopsy. So, this is a special procedure where, on the day of the surgery, before the melanoma is removed, the area around the melanoma is actually injected with a dye that has kind of a radioactive uptake. And then after the melanoma is excised, we can then actually go down to the neck and determine where the lymph nodes are that that melanoma was draining to. So, instead of having to do a large incision to take out all the lymph nodes in the neck without knowing if any of the lymph nodes are positive, we can actually pinpoint only one or two lymph nodes that we know the melanoma would have most likely been draining to and we can go take those lymph nodes out and then look at those lymph nodes under the microscope. And if those lymph nodes do not have any evidence of melanoma, then we know that it’s generally safe to watch the neck and not perform any major surgery or give any other therapeutic treatments. So, if that lymph node is involved with tumor, then we could go into the neck, make the incision larger and do a complete neck dissection or complete removal of the lymph nodes in the neck to help prevent recurrence of the melanoma in the future. Host: Can these cancers spread to other parts of the body? Dr. Giurintano: Yes. So, that is where my job as a head and neck cancer surgeon often takes the most importance in treating patients with skin cancers. For some people, they might have a small skin cancer on the scalp or on the ear. This is removed by a Mohs surgeon, with negative margins. The area is closed, the patient’s happy, and then 5 or 6 months down the road, that patient might develop a small lump in the parotid gland or in the neck. In short, yes, these skin cancers can also send metastasis to the lymph nodes in the face and lymph nodes in the neck. And whenever these lymph nodes do occur, they can often become very aggressive and distort the tissue surrounding them. So, my job as a head and neck surgeon in dealing with skin cancers, often occurs once the skin cancer has spread or metastasized to lymph nodes. And my job is to go into the neck or into the parotid gland and to remove these lymph nodes to remove all the cancer that has spread. Host: How do you recommend that patients prepare for treatment? Dr. Giurintano: A large part of the preparation for these patients is mental and emotional. Oftentimes, when the Mohs surgeon performs their portion of the procedure, which is the removal of the skin cancer, the resultant defect might be left in place with a bandage over it so that they can then be reconstructed secondarily by an otolaryngologist or by a facial plastic surgeon. It can be very distressing for patients to see a large hole in their face immediately after surgery, but they must be assured that this will be reconstructed in a manner that is both cosmetically appealing and functional. Occasionally, in order to repair defects in the skin on some parts of the nose, we have to take tissue from adjacent sites on the face, such as the skin on the forehead, and use that skin to resurface the lining of the nose. In order to do that sort of procedure, what’s called a local tissue flap, the patient has a very odd appearance immediately after surgery as the piece of skin still has a bridge connecting it where the artery, that is supplying the skin flap, is running. This can result in a very strange physical appearance for the 3 to 4 weeks immediately after reconstructive surgery while the skin is healing in to place on the nose. However, we have to encourage the patient that within 6 weeks, a second procedure is performed where that skin bridge is removed, and the remaining tissue is reoriented so that there is a normal cosmetic appearance with only a minor scar present on the forehead. Host: What does recovery from head and neck skin cancer treatment entail? Dr. Giurintano: So, aside from the actual recovery from surgery, which is often performed either on an outpatient basis or maybe with a 1 to 2 day hospital stay, if the lymph nodes in the neck need to be removed, recovery from head and neck skin cancer treatment, most importantly, requires a very close follow-up, with either an otolaryngologist or a dermatologist, in the future to ensure that no other areas of skin cancer arise within the head and neck. While it is impossible to completely reverse the many decades of damage the UV radiation from the sun has often done to patients’ skin, it is never too late to begin applying sunscreen and to do precautionary measures to help limit the amount of damage to the remaining skin and to help prevent further skin cancers from occurring in the future. Host: You mentioned sunscreen. Are there any other prevention tips that you can offer to people in the community? Dr. Giurintano: So, aside from wearing sunscreen daily, which should be part of all of our daily routines anytime we go out - the face, the ears, and, especially for men who might be balding, application of sunscreen on the scalp, a few other very good preventative measures are to wear a wide brimmed hat if you are going to be out in regular sun exposure and to not only apply sunscreen whenever it’s sunny outside. Even if it’s cloudy outside, the UV radiation from the sun can still cause damage to the skin, so sunscreen in encouraged and recommended anytime patients are going to be outside. Host: Could you share a story about a patient who had a particularly successful outcome after skin cancer treatment? Dr. Giurintano: So, I previously had a patient who was actually a transplant patient - previously had a kidney transplant - and, as part of his transplant protocol, he was required to take immunosuppressive drugs to ensure that the body did not reject the transplanted kidney. The unfortunate thing about immunosuppressive drugs is that if a cancer does develop in the body, the immune system is not present to help fight that cancer and it can spread very rapidly. So, I previously had a patient who was a transplant recipient, who developed what was initially a very small skin cancer present on his left face that very rapidly increased in size, to the point where nearly the entirety of his left face was involved with the skin cancer within only a few weeks. This patient required a large radical resection of the tumor as well as the underlying parotid gland and the lymph nodes in the neck. In this patient, we actually used a free flap (so, that’s a piece of tissue from the thigh that we connected with an artery and a vein in the neck), and we used that tissue from the leg to resurface the skin, fat and parotid gland that was resected during the cancer resection. And, the patient had an excellent cosmetic appearance afterwards and was able to complete radiation therapy and chemotherapy, and since that time, has not had any further skin cancers develop. Host: Why is MedStar Washington Hospital Center the best place for patients to come to receive treatment for skin cancers of the head and neck? Dr. Giurintano: MedStar Washington Hospital Center is an excellent place to come for head and neck skin cancer treatment as we have all the tools necessary to handle the most minor skin cancers up to the most complicated of skin cancers. While many small skin cancers can be handled in the community setting, for those type skin cancers which become very aggressive and which might invade locally into structures of the face - this includes the muscles of the face, the parotid gland or the large saliva glands on the side of the face and even the facial nerve, the nerve that controls all facial movements on one side of the face - for all these patients, even if the tumor is involving these structures, we have the surgical capability as well as the capability to provide adjuvant radiation therapy and chemotherapy, for even the most aggressive skin cancers to help patients have not only the best oncologic outcome possible but also the best cosmetic and physical outcome possible. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Giurintano. Dr. Giurintano: It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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TAVR: An Alternative to Open-Heart Surgery

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 19, 2019 10:47

In the past, the only way to treat aortic stenosis was to perform open-heart surgery—a very invasive procedure. Discover how TAVR, a new minimally invasive surgery, can replace a heart valve without surgery, allowing patients to recover faster. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: We’re speaking with Dr. Toby Rogers, an interventional cardiologist at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Thanks for joining us, Dr. Rogers. Dr. Rogers: It’s great to be here. Host: Today we’re discussing high, medium and low risk transcatheter aortic valve replacement, or TAVR. Dr. Rogers, could you start by discussing what TAVR is? Dr. Rogers: That’s a great question, and a lot of patients are quite confused by this terminology. So, aortic stenosis is a condition that is very common, particularly in older patients. And, it’s caused by a narrowing or blockage of the main heart valve through which blood flows from the heart to the rest of the body. And, as that gets progressively tighter with time and with age, patients can start to get very symptomatic, particularly when they’re trying to be active. So, they get very short of breath, they can get dizzy, they can even get chest pain when they’re trying to be active, even just walking across the room. And, historically, the only way to fix this problem was to do open-heart surgery and literally stop the heart from beating, cut out the old valve, and surgically sew in a new valve. But you can imagine, open-heart surgery is a big deal and it’s very stressful on the body and, the older you are, the more stressful a big surgery is. And so, TAVR is an amazing new technology that over the last decade has revolutionized cardiac surgery, in that we can now replace that heart valve through a little tiny catheter in the groin, with the heart still beating - in fact, with the patient awake. We don’t even have to put the patient asleep. And, we can replace the heart valve and improve the blood flow to the rest of the body. Host: What do you mean when you say high, medium and low risk TAVR? Dr. Rogers: So, again, this is a concept that we use very freely in medicine, but patients often get confused by that. And, what we’re actually saying is, ‘What would the risk be for that patient to undergo the old fashioned open-heart surgery?” Meaning, if they were to have open-heart surgery tomorrow, would that be a low risk procedure, an intermediate risk procedure or would it be a very high-risk procedure. And that’s not really determined by the heart at all. It’s often determined by other medical problems they have. And obviously, older patients are more likely to have more than one medical problem. So, if you have trouble with the kidneys, if you have trouble with your lungs, if you have trouble with your liver - then all of those things will make a big procedure, or a big surgery, more high risk. And so, for every patient that comes along with aortic stenosis, we make an assessment based on a whole barrage of tests, looking at all the different organs in the body, as well as the heart, to say, “What would your risk of surgery be?” And that, then, helps us judge whether the open-heart surgery is the best treatment for them or if, in fact, they’d be better to have a procedure like TAVR, which is less invasive. Host: Who would you consider to be an optimal candidate for TAVR? Dr. Rogers: Well, certainly anyone who is very high risk for surgery. So, if undergoing open-heart surgery would be very high risk, and there would be a risk of not making it through the procedure, then clearly those are patients who should have less invasive procedure. And certainly, that’s the way TAVR started. It was really only available to patients who were so high risk that they just couldn’t have surgery. But then, as we’ve gotten more comfortable with the technology, and we’ve gotten more data for the technology and as we’ve run clinical trials - very rigorous clinical trials - across the US and across the world, we’ve actually demonstrated that TAVR’s actually a very good option for anyone with aortic stenosis. And, I think within the next 12 months, we’ll expect that the FDA will approve TAVR so that we can offer it to anyone with aortic stenosis. So, for sure if you’re high risk, but the truth is, moving forwards and in years to come, I suspect that TAVR will be the first line treatment for anyone with this condition. Host: You mentioned inserting the catheter through their groin and replacing the artery that way. Could you describe how TAVR is performed? Dr. Rogers: Yes. So, of course, each procedure is slightly different for different patients. But, a typical TAVR is performed with a patient under conscious sedation. By that we mean we give you some medication to make you relaxed, make you a little bit sleepy, but you’re breathing for yourself, you’re not on a ventilator and, in fact, some of these patients even sort of, you know, are able to talk to us and are fairly awake during the procedure. And that has a lot of advantages because putting a patient on a ventilator and breathing for them with a mechanical ventilator under general anesthetic increases the risk of the procedure. There’s more risk of picking up a chest infection, needing to be in hospital longer after their procedure, whereas if it’s all done under conscious sedation and with local anesthetic, then patients bounce back much faster and are able to get up and about much faster and that speeds up the recovery. So that’s the first step - it’s done under conscious sedation. And then, what we actually do, is we take the heart valve, the new heart valve, and we crimp it down or we’ll crush it down onto a catheter. So, we squeeze it down so it’s small enough to now go through the artery and the groin. We all have big arteries that go from the heart all the way down through the belly, down the legs, and so, we actually access one of those arteries and thread the catheter, with the new valve on it, all the way from the artery in the groin, all the way up to the heart and then position it inside the heart using x-rays and ultrasound so that we know we’re in the right place. And then, we open up the new heart valve inside the old one and “Hey, Presto” - you have a new heart valve. Host: What does a patient have to do then to prepare for the procedure? Dr. Rogers: So, I think we have a great team here that really guide the patients through the whole process, right from the very first contact, through all the testing to work out whether TAVR is the right treatment for them, all the way through the procedure. So, there are a lot of steps to this. This is not just a sort of come in and have the procedure and go home the next day. We always see patients beforehand. We usually bring patients in for a day or two several weeks in advance of the procedure to do all the tests we need to do to make sure that we know everything we need to know about this patient before we embark on the procedure. And then if we’re talking specifically on the (sort of the) day of the procedure, we usually ask people to come in the night before or very early in the morning. There’s a whole series of tests that we do - blood tests, to make sure that there’s...nothing’s cropped up in the meantime. And then, the procedure itself takes 3, 4 hours. And then, the patients typically go to either the cardiac ICU overnight or increasingly, actually, just go back to the normal ward, just to be monitored by the nurses there. And then we try and get people up and about the next day, and the average hospital stay for this procedure now is 2 or 3 days. So, actually, we’ve gone from a process where open-heart surgery patients would be in hospital for a week or more to a process where people are having heart valve replacement and they’re out, sometimes the day after the procedure, which, I think, is a revolution in this treatment. Host: What are the benefits of TAVR compared to traditional open-heart surgery? Dr. Rogers: Ok, so the first benefit is that some patients simply can’t have open-heart surgery. They’re too sick. They have too many other medical problems that would make the procedure too high-risk. And therefore, surgery just isn’t an option for them. Whereas, we’re able to perform TAVR safely in those patients because it’s less invasive. For the more general population, TAVR has the clear advantage that recovery is faster. Patients, after surgery, often have longer hospital stays. They end up staying in hospital for a week or so after the procedure. The complications are more common after surgery because it is just a bigger procedure and a bigger stress on the body. TAVR patients, in contrast, tend to go home within 2 or 3 days of the procedure and the recovery after they get home is much faster because they don’t have to deal with the surgical wound, the incision, and all of the problems you can get related to having just had a much bigger procedure. And so, in terms of getting back to normal daily activities, getting back to work, TAVR allows for much faster recovery. Host: And the recovery process - how does that look for patients? Dr. Rogers: So, the great advantage - and I think I’ve highlighted it a little bit already - the great advantage to this procedure is it’s not surgery and it doesn’t require cutting the chest open, it doesn’t require general anesthesia. And so, the great advantage of TAVR is the recovery. Patient’s bounce back and recover from this procedure must faster because it’s just less stressful on the body. Now, that being said, it’s still heart surgery, we’re still replacing a heart valve, and so I always try and temper patient’s expectations and say that, “You’re gonna have to take it a little bit slow here at first.” But, it depends. Someone who is in their 60s is going to recover from a big procedure like this much faster than someone who is in their 90s. And so, every patient is a little different. But certainly, the whole goal of doing this procedure is to get someone back to their normal activities, not just what they were like before they had the procedure but what they were like before they had symptoms from the aortic stenosis. So, back to being active, back to playing sports, whatever they want to do. Host: Could you share the story of a patient who had a particularly successful outcome with TAVR? Dr. Rogers: Sure. So, one patient, he’d had open-heart surgery to replace the same valve about 10 years or so ago. And, that had been a great success. He felt wonderful afterwards. But, the truth is, prosthetic heart valves don’t last a lifetime. And so, his “new” heart valve started to get tight and he a started to get those same symptoms again. And he was very, very worried about the prospect of having to have open-heart surgery again. He felt like he had done it once; he did not want to go there again. So, when he found out that there was an alternative to avoid having to have open-heart surgery again, he jumped at it. And, he came in the hospital, we did the procedure the same day, we got a great result with the new valve, and he actually went home, I think, the day after the procedure. Now, not everyone goes home so soon but, for him, the difference experienced from the first surgery, where he was in hospital for a week, to going home, literally, 24 hours after his procedure, I think, that’s really remarkable. And certainly, he was overjoyed by the result he got. Host: Why is MedStar Washington Hospital Center the best place for patients to come for TAVR? Dr. Rogers: I think that one of the strengths we have is that we’ve been part of the whole TAVR program since it very first took off. The very first procedure was done in France in 2002, and TAVR came to the US in around 2007, and MedStar was part of the first wave of hospitals to perform this procedure. And, we have performed almost 2,000 of these procedures now. We have a great deal of experience with all the different types of technologies which are out there to treat this. It’s not just one valve available. Now we have a whole series of different types of valves, which are...different patients need different valves. And, we’re also very active in research. So, not only do we have access to all of our past experience in research, but we also have access to all of the new technologies. So, when a new valve is made available, we’re one of the first hospitals to get access to it to offer that to our patients. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Rogers. Dr. Rogers: Thank you for your time. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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The Heart Care Team: Dedicated Experts for Every Patient

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 7, 2019 10:07

When you have a team of experts dedicated to caring for your heart condition, you’ll always see providers you know and trust. Dr. Vinod Thourani explains how collaboration among a variety of experts improves our patients’ outcomes and experiences. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: Thank you for joining us today. We’re talking with Dr. Vinod Thourani, chairman of cardiac surgery at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute and MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Welcome, Dr. Thourani. Dr. Vinod Thourani: Thank you so much. Host: Today we’re talking about who makes up a patient’s heart team. When it comes to managing a heart condition, the ‘who’ is just as important as the ‘what.’ Heart team members have specific roles, and the way they collaborate together and with patients can make the difference between successful outcomes and simply managing symptoms. Dr. Thourani, what do you mean when you say “heart team”? Dr. Thourani: I think that’s a great question and I think that really needs to be defined more because I’m not sure people understand. And a lot of the patients, when I talk to them in the clinic, I have to explain to them exactly what a heart team is. So, this is really evolved. Where the original heart team, meaning a group of doctors on a common theme, was really in heart failure. So, if somebody was coming to get a heart transplantation, they would be evaluated by a multitude of people. They’d be seen by a regular cardiologist, they’d be seen by nurse practitioners or physician’s assistants, and they’d be seen by the surgeon. And that was a very small group of patients. And over the last decade, where it really exploded—the aspect of the heart team—was in valve disease. A study called a Partner Study—and the reason the study was called Partner Study is it was the definition of a heart team. Because we’re going to see surgeons and cardiologists partner together for the treatment of valve disease. And that idea has really been an organic growth over the last decade. So, the heart team now has really modified since when I knew about this about 12 years ago. And currently the heart team constitutes a specifically—and it can be for coronary disease or valve disease; it can be for any disease process but at the least it includes now a non-invasive cardiologist, a general cardiologist, an invasive cardiologist who puts in stents or helps treat a heart attack with some type of angioplasty procedure. It includes an echocardiographer who’s also a cardiologist—so these are the specific physician who does the sonogram, and sometimes that’s called a transthoracic echocardiogram or TTE. And so you really have those three cardiologists that help the initial part of the heart team. Of course, there’s the cardiac surgeon, especially for those patients who can’t be treated with catheters. And I will tell you now that is grown into something that we call advanced practice clinicians, and those are nurse practitioners and physician’s assistants, so APCs are now an integral component of the heart team. There are other people who are called in to the heart team—sometimes a neurologist is called in if someone has stroke issues or has dementia issues. A nephrologist can be called in for obviously patients who have kidney problems. But really, we have five or six key people that make the heart team, especially at the MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute. Those really five people are key to the process of evaluating a patient. Host: Is having APCs involved with the heart team more regularly common or is it something unique to MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute? Dr. Thourani: So, I think that early on, including APCs within the heart team was a unique aspect. So, we really use APCs, which could be a physician’s assistant or a nurse practitioner, almost as an extension of the physician. Their knowledge is unbelievable and they’re able to really bring the patient into it—this family, is what we end up creating. And as I see valve patients, I tell them that you’re now part of the heart team family and that we’ll be managing your valve problems or your coronary problems for the rest of your life. So, the APCs are critical to the preoperative, the intraoperative and the postoperative management of our patients, so they’re really a critical component of the heart team. Host: Do you work with the palliative care program as well? Dr. Thourani: We do, and what we’re able to do, uh, for the heart team—if we believe that someone has a life expectancy of less than a year, then we really bring in palliative physician specialists, but also oncologists, ‘cause a lot of those people who have less than a 1-year expectancy of life have some type of malignant cancer that we’re worried about. So, the heart team can really have a multitude of people that we call on, too, and then there’s our core heart team that we use. We’re very fortunate at the MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute that we’re integrated within MedStar Washington Hospital Center that has world class care in all aspects, so we’re really fortunate to be able to call on our colleagues within minutes and we’re able to get someone to see these patients. Host: What is your patients’ reaction when you mention that they’re now a part of the heart team family? Dr. Thourani: They love it because sometimes in our care in the United States has become fragmented. So, you see one doctor one time and then you may not—the next time you come to the hospital or the next time you come to the office, you may not see that person again. And so I think that they get lost in the shuffle. And our goal is for the patients to feel very comfortable that they’re coming to a team of physicians who are with them for a long period of time. And I really believe the APCs are a good extension of that because if I’m in, let’s say, in surgery and I can’t see them, they already know our APCs, so they feel very comfortable talking to them and really using them as our extensions. Host: Why did you choose to come to MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute? Dr. Thourani: You know, I was in Atlanta for 37 years, and so for me to leave, it really had to be somewhere where I thought it was going to be the next level for me as far as taking care of my patients. And, I looked around the country and, to me, MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute was the place that felt the best to me as far as synergy of not only the medical devices that we treat people, but the actual people, and I think the human interactions in the team that’s here really attracted me to coming here. I’m overwhelmed by the quality of physicians and the interest in taking care of patients. It really is a patient-centric focused pathway and so I couldn’t be happier. Host: You’ve talked a lot about that collaboration between all of the different physicians. How does that then translate to the patient outcomes and patient care? Dr. Thourani: So, patient outcomes therefore, I think, benefit because when a patient comes in, we don’t necessarily pigeonhole them into one or two procedures. We have a bevy of procedures we can provide for them, if they need that, of course. Sometimes they don’t and they get medical therapy. But, if they do need a procedure, then we’re able to provide them that traditional pathway or we can give them the pathways that are innovative and new technologies. And so, with our relationship with the FDA and the NIH, we get sometimes therapies here that no one else in the country has, or only two or three sites in the country have, so we’re fortunate with that. That has, therefore, left us with looking at our outcomes, and we find that we are, for instance in cardiac surgery, we are three stars, the highest designation given to a cardiac surgery program, in all 3 categories that exist. And therefore, that puts us within the top 1 to 2 percent of hospitals performing cardiac surgery in the United States. So, we feel that this heart team approach also benefits, not only the patients, but it also benefits our outcomes to give us a program that is unique amongst the entire country. Host: How does the research portion of being an academic medical center benefit you as a surgeon and your team as well as benefit the patients? Dr. Thourani: So, that’s a great question. And I’ve been a big proponent of research, and that’s a big part of what I like to do. And my research has been specifically more in the clinical end of taking care of patients with new technologies. And it’s just not mine, but it’s our entire heart team that does that. And what we’ve been able to do is offer patients, when there was no hope, or were able to offer therapies that are less invasive and easier on the patient for recovery. So, it has completely changed with the research aspect, the new technologies we’re able to get here and available to patients. It has completely transformed how we manage patients and I think it’s the future of why patients have great outcomes here. And it’s one of the reasons I also came here. I knew the team here were very interested in providing the best technological support we can. Host: If there is an individual in the community who has a serious heart condition, what would be the most important thing to impress upon them as to why they should come to MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute for their care? Dr. Thourani: The most important reason is that you have a dedicated heart hospital here at MedStar Washington Hospital Center, so the MHVI is a functioning, over 200 beds, that are exclusive for the care of cardiac patients. We have nurses that are exclusive to that. We have ICUs that are exclusive to that. Our operating rooms are completely situated with that. And so, we have a MHVI, the MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute, is a really a hospital within a hospital, an institute within a hospital, that allows us to concentrate on the patients with coronary or valvular or heart failure conditions. So, we really have it really finetuned to managing these patients. And this is very unique and it’s not very common to have this type of energy and vision towards this entire pathway. Host: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Thourani. Dr. Thourani: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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How Calcium Helps Identify Heart Disease Risk

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 5, 2019 10:35

Artery buildups serve as silent danger signs of a heart attack. Discover how a coronary calcium score calculates patients’ risk by measuring the amount of calcium in their arteries through the use of a computed tomography (CT) scan. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: Thanks for joining us today. We’re speaking with Dr. Allen J. Taylor, Chair of Cardiology at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute. Welcome, Dr. Taylor. Dr. Allen J. Taylor: Thank you. Host: Today we’re discussing coronary calcium scoring, which is a non-invasive heart scan that a cardiologist can use to help calculate a patient’s risk for coronary artery disease or atherosclerosis. Dr. Taylor, what are you looking for in a patient’s heart when you perform coronary calcium scoring? Dr. Taylor: Great question. This is a very simple test that very accurately and easily detects the beginnings of atherosclerosis or what otherwise people call (quote) “hardening of the arteries.” It’s that development of plaque, cholesterol buildups and other things that are filling up the arteries as we age. And so, when we’re doing coronary calcium scoring, we’re looking for little pieces of calcium, like in your bones, but that are in the arteries and it shouldn’t be there. And it’s a marker for these buildups that we can easily detect and measure and through that, evaluate a patient's risk for heart disease. Host: How does the calcium end up there when it’s not supposed to be there? Dr. Taylor: The calcium comes because the arteries are becoming damaged from the buildups and as they heal, the body naturally lays down some calcium. So, it’s part of these plaques or buildups and it’s the one that we can detect with x-rays because x-rays detect bone, and this is basically bone in your arteries—little pieces of calcium. So, it’s easily detected with a simple scan, a CT scan, that we call a coronary calcium scan. Host: Are there certain populations of patients who are at increased risk for high levels of coronary calcium? Dr. Taylor: It’s interesting because simply by aging, that’s your major risk. Now, some people with high cholesterol or high blood pressure or diabetes or smokers - they may develop calcium in their heart arteries at a faster rate. But, just because you don’t have those things, doesn’t mean you’re not developing buildups; it doesn’t mean you don’t have coronary calcium. And the challenge is that by measuring those risk factors, we can detect somewhat of a patient’s risk for heart disease, but it’s only part of the story. And, the important thing about calcium scoring is that it tells us more of the story. It adds to what we already know about a patient and helps us to determine who really is at risk for heart disease. Host: Is there anything that a patient has to do to prepare for this type of scoring test? Dr. Taylor: The beautiful thing about this is it’s a very simple test. It’s done using a CAT scanner or CT scanner, but it uses very low doses of radiation. There’s no needle. There’s no medicines. All the patient does is lay down, get hooked up to a few electrocardiogram electrodes, and hold their breath for about 15 seconds. Within 5 minutes, they’re done, and the scan is complete. Host: Now why does the patient have to hold their breath while they’re getting this test? Dr. Taylor: The reason that you have to hold your breath is because if the heart is moving when you breathe, it’ll blur the images. So, it’s done during a breath hold. But, the breath hold is very short. The scans are very fast. And, virtually all patients can tolerate the scan. The scanners are very wide profile, there’s not a lot of claustrophobia or that feeling of being closed in by the scanner tube. And the radiation levels, which is previously or often a concern, are very, very low. They’re really like a couple of mammograms worth of radiation exposure. So, it’s a very simple test and actually they’re also very inexpensive. Most health systems will do these tests for under a hundred dollars, if insurance doesn’t cover it. And many insurance payers will actually cover the test. Host: What happens next if a patient’s scan shows high levels of coronary calcium? Dr. Taylor: Right. If you find calcium, what does it mean? It means you’re at increased risk for heart disease. By the converse, if you don’t find calcium, it means you’re at low risk for heart disease. So, it really puts a lot of clarity on who is and who’s not at risk. So, when you detect coronary calcium, there’s certain things you’re going to do. The most obvious things are live a better lifestyle since lifestyle changes are so important to heart disease risk. Eat a better diet, exercise more, get good rest, avoid stress, for example. And then, other health habits, like don’t smoke, make sure your cholesterol is well controlled, make sure your blood pressure is well controlled. Maybe you’ll need a cholesterol medicine to control your risk. Maybe you’ll need aspirin to control your risk. With this information, you can make the right lifestyle changes. And also make sure you’re on the right treatments to optimize reducing the risk for heart disease. Because, remember - heart disease is still the number one killer in this country. Host: If those lifestyle changes don’t work, what treatment options are available to take care of that coronary calcium buildup? Dr. Taylor: A common question we get is “Can you remove the calcium?” And, you can’t. But remember, if there’s calcium there, there’s plaque or other buildups. And it’s that other parts of the buildups we’re trying to treat by treating cholesterol, for example. Mostly we can show that we can stabilize the plaques, for instance, by lowering cholesterol a lot using very simple cholesterol medications that are very safe and very effective. But, some other choices might be there for patients, like do they or don’t they take an aspirin a day, for example, or what blood pressure targets should they be looking for? Or, maybe they’ve been avoiding diabetes treatments and they should get on treatments. Or, what types of diabetes treatments? So, with your doctor, there’s many healthcare choices that can be made to reduce the risk for heart disease. But, that’s the connection. You get the test, you clarify your risk, and then you treat the risk using those other interventions - lifestyle and then targeted treatments for certain heart risk factors. Host: You’ve given us a lot of really good reasons to get this test and then to seek treatment after. But what if a patient doesn’t seek treatment? What are some of the risks to their health? Dr. Taylor: Well, one thing we know is that many patients fear heart disease but may not have to fear it at all because, if you have no calcium in your arteries, the evidence shows the risk for heart disease over the next 10 years is extremely low, like .1 percent per year, one in a thousand. Very low. Now, if a patient does have coronary calcium and doesn’t seek treatment, that would not be the outcome we would want because anytime you do a test, you want to use that test to make better health choices. And, the evidence shows that, in fact, that is what happens. So, when people get this test, they’re more likely to get appropriate cholesterol medication, for example. They’re more likely to take appropriate measures, like taking aspirin. And, they’re also more likely to make other healthy lifestyle choices. So, I think the test has some great utility to help both patients and doctors more carefully identify risk and then respond in the right way. And, the evidence suggests that that’s actually what happens. Host: Could you tell us about a patient who came in for a coronary calcium scoring test - maybe found that they had some calcium and made some changes to their life or were able to reduce their heart disease risk? Dr. Taylor: Oh sure. I can tell you stories on both sides of the story. A friend of mine, he’s in is early 50s and has a family history of heart disease, has always worried that something inside of him is not...won’t be right, that genetics have led to him to have risk for heart disease. But he lives a healthy lifestyle, doesn’t have any risk factors. He got a scan - there was no calcium. So, he has been reassured that, in fact, whatever it was that led his loved one - it was one of his parents - to have heart disease, he, at least at this point in his life, doesn’t appear to have it. And it’s a pretty good time to screen, as people turn middle-aged, 50 to 60. That’s when heart disease risk really goes up and we can detect calcium, if it’s present, and how much. On the other side of the story, many, many successful stories that show how this test can be well utilized. For example, a woman who was also middle-aged, in her 50s, and she had been worried about her heart health and didn’t have a lot of risk factors. Not a smoker, good cholesterol. And, in fact, she has very high levels of coronary calcium. And, she’s way above average for age and that says that her risk is much higher than it should be. So, what did we do? Well, she’s now on a cholesterol medicine - her cholesterol wasn’t bad, now it’s perfect. And, not all healthy people should take aspirin, but her risk is high enough with this that we have, in fact, placed her on aspirin - carefully, because aspirin can cause bleeding, so you only want to use aspirin when patients have risk for heart disease. So, her treatments have been changed. Now, she’s still active and she’s still eating well. She was always doing those things. But now we’ve gone from the normal lifestyle changes to, in fact, a very proactive approach to reduce her risk and hopefully that risk is being optimized. Host: What would you say to a patient who feels like maybe this isn’t for them or they don’t need this type of test? Dr. Taylor: The interesting thing about calcium testing is that we can only predict, with heart risk factors, about a third, meaning a minority, of actually how much buildup is actually there. You only know by looking. You know, they’ve said ‘a picture says a thousand words?’ That’s the case with this. By doing this very simple test, you can get a complete view of heart risk within 5 minutes, and it’s something that no other test can provide. Host: What makes the program here at MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute so unique for patients who have coronary artery calcium buildup? Dr. Taylor: In the mid-Atlantic, MedStar Heart and Vascular Institute has been doing calcium scanning longer than anybody. And, many of our doctors, myself included, have conducted some of the seminal research, the important research, that’s shown the value of this test. And we provide this as a low-cost health service. So, even if patients’ insurance won’t provide it, we so strongly believe that this is the best test that a patient, age 50 and above, could take to really know their heart risk, that we provide this at very low cost. So, we believe in the test. We think it’s very important. And we provide that care so that no patient shouldn’t have the benefit of a coronary calcium scan. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Taylor. Dr. Taylor: Thank you so much. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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Why Taking Thyroid Supplements is a Bad Idea

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 31, 2019 7:18

People who are concerned about their thyroid health may turn to supplements. But thyroid supplements can cause the very problems they’re supposed to correct. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. In today’s episode, we talk to Dr. Kenneth Burman, Director of Endocrinology at MedStar Washington Hospital Center about thyroid supplements. The thyroid is a tiny organ that’s involved in regulating several major bodily functions including breathing, heart rate and body temperature. Over-the-counter thyroid supplements may seem like a good idea to someone who believes they may have a thyroid condition. But thyroid supplements actually can cause problems with the thyroid and we may not know exactly what’s in them. Host: Dr. Burman, thanks for joining us. Dr. Kenneth Burman: Sure. Thank you for the invitation. Host: You bet. So, over-the-counter thyroid supplements—helpful or dangerous? Tell us about that topic. Dr. Burman: Sure, be glad to. Over-the-counter supplements for the thyroid come into various categories. So, one type of supplement would be iodine or iodine containing substances. Another type would be substances that contain one type of thyroid hormone, or thyroid hormone analog. There are other ones that are much less well characterized, and we’ll focus on the iodine and the thyroid containing supplements. So, iodine is an interesting substance. It is required for the synthesis of thyroid hormone synthesis and also required for secretion of thyroid hormone. And, thyroid hormones, which are abbreviated T-4 and T-3, contain about 68 percent iodine. So normal iodine in a diet, minimum daily requirement is about 150 micrograms per day and some substances that we use in medicine such as IVP dyes or cat scans contain thousands of micrograms of iodine per day. Supplements can vary over-the-counter and are not necessarily regulated as to how much iodine they contain. So, if a supplement contains something close to the minimum daily requirement (about 150 micrograms) that should be fine and maybe even beneficial. But many of the supplements are not quantitated in terms of iodine, but also contain iodine that is very high in thousands of micrograms in a tablet. And if you take one a day, that would be thousands of micrograms a day. So, what are the effects of iodine on the thyroid gland? They’re multiple. For a short period of time iodine in these concentrations will lower thyroid hormone secretion so we actually use supplements to very hyperthyroid people under very controlled circumstances. But that control of thyroid synthesis only occurs for 10-14 days approximately, and after that time, they escape from that effect and the iodine fuels worsening hyperthyroidism. Normal people may or may not have those reactions but those are possible, especially in the large percentage of patients in the population that have autoimmune thyroid disease and may not even know it. So, in summary, with regard to iodine, large amounts of iodine should be avoided by normal people and anyone with thyroid disease, a normal amount of iodine, a minimum daily requirement, is reasonable; and everyone, but especially people with a family history or known history of thyroid disease should avoid large amounts of iodine. With regard to thyroid hormone analogs, one of my former fellows and now colleague, Vick Burnett who is the head of endocrinology at Mayo Clinic, Jacksonville, did a nice study that he published of looking at supplements and measuring thyroid hormone in them. And it turned out, that of the 10 or 20 supplements that he looked at, almost all of them had a significant amount of thyroid hormone in them, even if they didn’t put that on the label. So, thyroid hormone itself, given to a normal person, can cause hyperthyroidism, which may be associated with a fast heart rate, palpitation, bone loss, and even more severe problems such as atrial fibrillation and should be avoided. And that these thyroid hormone analogs are difficult to identify in these supplements unless you specifically look for them. And it’s not just the standard hormones of T-4 and T-3 but there are various analogs of thyroid hormone that can cause similar problems that are not necessarily quantitated in these supplements. Host: When we talk about over-the-counter supplements, are these people who self-diagnose themselves and then they just go out and they get the supplements? Dr. Burman: Either because they are self-diagnosing themselves but perhaps, more commonly, they’re using it as health food or health additives to try to make them feel better or have more vigor. Of course, regular vitamins are key, and everyone should have adequate amounts of regular vitamins but iodine in excess, or thyroid hormone in excess, in any of these supplements should be avoided. And, of course, the FDA does not regulate supplements like they regulate medications. Host: So, we don’t even know what’s in them necessarily. Dr. Burman: Correct. So, this study by Dr. Burnett, it was unknown or unidentified exactly what the contents were and he was very surprised that it turned out to be significant amounts of thyroid hormone in many cases. Host: So, for the most part, would you recommend people do not take them then or do consider them? Dr. Burman: We would recommend that, in general, patients with any known thyroid disease not take supplements, and even normal individuals should ask their physicians to examine whether those particular supplements may contain thyroid hormone. Host: What can happen if you take supplements and you don’t have a problem? Dr. Burman: If you take supplements and you don’t have an endogenous thyroid problem, there could be enough thyroid hormone in them to cause overactive thyroid activity, just as if you had bona fide hypothyroidism. That can result in atrial fibrillation, heart irregularities, bone loss, and other significant problems. Host: What other tips do we have on this topic? Anything else we need to share that people need to be aware of? Dr. Burman: Yeah, it’s always of interest that people wonder where iodine comes from and in food, etc. in our normal American diet. So, I frequently ask the medical students “What’s the most common source of iodine in the American diet?” and they always, unanimously say, “salt.” But it turns out salt doesn’t contain that much iodine. That rather, it’s processed foods that contain iodine as a preservative—bread and pastries, to name one large source of iodine. And then another source of iodine that relates to health food is kelp. Kelp is seaweed which, of course, no matter how it’s prepared, has a large amount of iodine in it that can cause the problems of over or under activity. Host: Great. Well, thank you for joining us on the show today and I appreciate everybody listening and hopefully you found this information helpful. Thanks again. Dr. Burman: Thank you. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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How Patients Benefit from Thoracic Robotic Surgery

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 22, 2019 10:22

Thoracic surgery has come a long way in the last century. Dr. John Lazar discusses how patients in Washington, D.C., can benefit from safer, more precise surgeries with faster recovery through minimally invasive robotic technology. TRANSCRIPT Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine. Host: Thanks for joining us today. We’re speaking with Dr. John Lazar, Director of Thoracic Robotics at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. We’re discussing robotic surgery, a minimally invasive technique, which increasingly is being used for esophageal, lung, and other thoracic conditions. Dr. Lazar, what do you mean when you say robotic thoracic surgery? Dr. John Lazar: So, basically, we mean we’re doing minimally invasive surgery and it’s robotically assisted, meaning the surgeon is in total control of the robot. Nothing is automated, and yet we’re taking advantage of robotic technology, which would be 3-D visualization, uh, removal of any tremor, and basically being able to manipulate the robot in small, hard to reach areas. Host: When you say removal of tremor, is that from the physician’s hand? Dr. Lazar: not necessarily the way you would think about a tremor, but for every three motions I make, the robot will make one. So, it sort of stabilizes the hand - there’s no big lunging motions - so we call it stabilization. Host: What are some of the more common thoracic procedures that are performed with robotic surgery? Dr. Lazar: So, when we think about robotic surgery, we think about three main areas, one of which is the lung. Uh, the other one is called the mediastinum, which is the central part of the chest - the soft tissue’s there, which includes the thymus. And the other part is the esophagus as well as the stomach. Host: Are you treating conditions that are just cancer or what sort of conditions are you looking for? Dr. Lazar: So, we treat conditions that are both cancerous or malignant as well as benign, meaning non-cancerous. Um, non-cancerous conditions are especially prominent in the esophagus - such things as paraesophageal hernias, where the stomach actually over time goes up into the chest. Uh, we also treat things like lung cancer. There are some benign diseases of the mediastinum which we also treat, but they have to be treated with excision. And, that’s pretty much it when it comes to the robot. Host: So, what are some of the patient benefits that people can expect when they get a robotic surgery as opposed to a traditional surgery? Dr. Lazar: So, traditional surgery we’re talking about usually a large incision, something anywhere from six inches to twelve inches. Uh, when we talk about robotic surgery, we call it port-based surgery. It’s minimally invasive and instead of the instruments kind of grinding back and forth, they go through a port and so there’s only one small area where the port is touching the skin, and so generally we find that there’s less pain afterwards. People are able to get back to their daily lives quicker. So, in terms of comparison in after-care for robotic surgery versus open surgery, uh, most people who have open surgery are in the ICU anywhere from one to three days, maybe sometimes five days, whereas most patients who get robotic surgery do not need to go to the ICU and therefore, they’re up and out of bed and walking around the floors much quicker and the tubes - there’s usually a tube after surgery - that can come out. And I tell most of my patients that they’re in the hospital three to five days. Everybody’s a little bit different, but that’s about it. Um, most people are walking - they’re walking up the stairs - they’re eating, they’re drinking. Uh, they’re usually...their biggest complaint is they’re a little bit sore, but nothing compared to open surgery. There’s less narcotic use, uh, for minimally invasive and robotic surgery and they’re usually 90 percent better by ten to fourteen days after surgery. That’s not out of the hospital - that’s after surgery itself. Host: How do patient outcomes with robotic surgery compare to those of traditional surgery? Dr. Lazar: So, robotic patients are minimally invasive patients. So, generally speaking, if you’re able to get a minimally invasive procedure, meaning smaller incisions, patients usually do better quicker. Over the long term, they do just about the same. But the idea that robotic surgery is just another type of minimally invasive surgery, the advantages being more for the surgeon and less from the patient when we talk about things like VATs or laparoscopic surgery which are other types of minimally invasive surgery. For the surgeon, we’re able to get into smaller places, we’re able to visualize things in 3-D as opposed to just on a flat screen TV, which is the way we do it in traditional minimally invasive. And this allows us to do more highly technical procedures in a smaller space. So, in comparison to open surgery, I think where robotics has really helped the patient is getting them a better...technically a better operation, whether it’s cancer operation or whether it’s for something like paraesophageal hernia, and I think that’s because the surgeons can see better. They are not constrained by stiff instruments like you have in VATs and laparoscopic surgery. In robotic surgery there’s...the wrists are able to flex just like your own wrists and we’re able to see things that we normally couldn’t see and therefore we’re able to do better operations. You’re better to see the margins, and I think that that plays a big role in the post-operative care. Host: Why is MedStar Washington Hospital Center the best place to seek thoracic surgery from a robotic or a minimally invasive standpoint? Dr. Lazar: I would say that the group of surgeons across multiple disciplines are outstanding here - and that’s one of the major reasons why I came to join the thoracic team. They have a great deal of experience. They’ve been doing this for many years. They have gone through their learning curves already, and they’re able to offer patients an advanced level of robotic care at the cutting edge. Robotics is being employed by a lot of different specialties, not just thoracic. So, ENT is doing some cancer operations, uh, for tonsils and tongue-based cancers. Gynecology, urology are using it a lot as well for both malignant and non-cancerous procedures. Host: Thinking about those patients as you were talking, have you had any outstanding or really interesting patients that you could talk about in generalities? Dr. Lazar: There was an example of a young man who was, uh, working at home, felt his, uh, back sort of twinge, didn’t think anything of it. And then a week later went to his primary care physician who got a chest x-ray and saw that there was a mass along the left side of his chest. It led to a cat scan and showed a mass. His other surgeon was gonna do a large open procedure. Uh, luckily for him, they didn’t accept his insurance and so he came to me as a second referral. And, uh, we were able to do it minimally invasively. It turned out to be a benign cyst that was growing along his major artery called the aorta. We were able to do the surgery safely and he went home the next day and so far has not had any other issues and went back to work within two weeks. Host: You mentioned that your patient had had back problems, and that’s what prompted him to see his doctor. What are some of the other symptoms that patients often notice before they get to you? Dr. Lazar: I would say that pain is usually the number one, um, issue that patients have when it comes to the esophagus or the stomach. There’s usually things like nausea, bloating, indigestion, reflux - those types of things. Also, weight loss can be a big part of it. Fatigue. Host: Tell me a little bit about your patient population. Are you seeing mostly older folks or what does that look like? Dr. Lazar: So, I think, you know, being in the D.C. area, you see a lot of different people that you normally wouldn’t see. It’s a...it’s a much different population, probably because so many people move here from different parts of the country. So, we see people from 16-years-old to, you know, people in their 90s. And they have a variety of different issues. Um, some are cancerous and some are not. Um, so there’s... it’s really hard to pinpoint it on one thing, which is one of the nice things about practicing here at the...the hospital center is...is you do see a large variety of people. Host: Who’s at risk for these types of conditions? Dr. Lazar: So, I would say that the youngest people that we usually see are in their 30s but it goes all the way up in to the 90s, especially for the benign esophageal. This can happen to anybody at any age because it’s just a weakening of the muscle lining. Host: Is surgery the first line of defense, or the first treatment for these types of conditions or do you typically try another therapy first? Dr. Lazar: So, when you’re talking about non-cancerous things, obviously people try to avoid surgery at all costs. But usually once the symptoms become impinging on their quality of life, they generally seek surgical opinion. They’re not necessarily sold on surgery at that point but they at least want to keep their options open, especially if medical therapy tends to get more and more expensive, such as anti-acid medications and things like that. Host: Do your patients typically have to see their primary care doctor first or can they refer right to you? Dr. Lazar: It depends. Some people come right in to the emergency room, and if that happens, then it kind of bypasses the primary care but I think if they have a primary care, they should see their primary care first and get properly worked up. Most conditions are not surgical. Host: Are you or your colleagues participating or conducting any research right now on thoracic surgery field that you’d want people to know about? Dr. Lazar: Um, we are looking to become one of the first centers to robotically repair something called tracheobronchial malacia, which is a weakening of the trachea which is the windpipe that connects your mouth to your lungs. And basically, if it loses its integrity and it just starts to collapse, it can be very difficult and easily winded. In the old days we didn’t really have a lot for this, but now we can buttress it and sort of reinforce that integrity of the trachea and allows them to have a much better quality of life and not feel continuously short of breath. Host: Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Lazar. Dr. Lazar: Thank you. Conclusion: Thanks for listening to Medical Intel with MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Find more podcasts from our healthcare team by visiting medstarwashington.org/podcast or subscribing in iTunes or iHeartRadio.

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