Podcasts about JSON

Show DescriptionWe're all addicted to Clues by Sam and wonder about the data structure for the site, good thoughts on the design tokens community, shadow DOM, the state of web components in mid-2025, dealing with JSON, and new ideas around web monetization. Listen on Website →Links Clues By Sam web-platform-tests dashboard P&B: Dave Rupert – Manu Web Bucks Supertab | Reduce friction and drive revenue with Pay-as-you-go Introducing pay per crawl: enabling content owners to charge AI crawlers for access Get early access: Cloudflare Pay Per Crawl Private Beta | Cloudflare SponsorsDesign Tokens CourseWorld-renowned design systems experts Brad Frost (creator of Atomic Design) and Ian Frost teach you everything you need to know about creating an effective design token system to help your organization design and build at scale.

News includes the public launch of Phoenix.new - Chris McCord's revolutionary AI-powered Phoenix development service with full browser IDE and remote runtime capabilities, Ecto v3.13 release featuring the new transact/1 function and built-in JSON support, Nx v0.10 with improved documentation and NumPy comparisons, Phoenix 1.8 getting official security documentation covering OWASP Top 10 vulnerabilities, Zach Daniel's new "evals" package for testing AI language model performance, and ElixirConf US speaker announcements with keynotes from José Valim and Chris McCord. Saša Jurić shares his comprehensive thoughts on Elixir project organization and structure, Sentry's Elixir SDK v11.x adding OpenTelemetry-based tracing support, and more! Then we dive deep with Chris McCord himself for an exclusive interview about his newly launched phoenix.new service, exploring how AI-powered code generation is bringing Phoenix applications to people from outside the community. We dig into the technology behind the remote runtime and what it means for the future of rapid prototyping in Elixir. Show Notes online - http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/259 (http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/259) Elixir Community News https://www.honeybadger.io/ (https://www.honeybadger.io/utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=podcast) – Honeybadger.io is sponsoring today's show! Keep your apps healthy and your customers happy with Honeybadger! It's free to get started, and setup takes less than five minutes. https://phoenix.new/ (https://phoenix.new/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Chris McCord's phoenix.new project is open to the public https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1936068482065666083 (https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1936068482065666083?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Phoenix.new was opened to the public - a service for building Phoenix apps with AI runtime, full browser IDE, and remote development capabilities https://github.com/elixir-ecto/ecto (https://github.com/elixir-ecto/ecto?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Ecto v3.13 was released with new features including transact/1, schema redaction, and built-in JSON support https://github.com/elixir-ecto/ecto/blob/v3.13.2/CHANGELOG.md#v3132-2025-06-24 (https://github.com/elixir-ecto/ecto/blob/v3.13.2/CHANGELOG.md#v3132-2025-06-24?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Ecto v3.13 changelog with detailed list of new features and improvements https://github.com/elixir-nx/nx (https://github.com/elixir-nx/nx?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Nx v0.10 was released with documentation improvements and floating-point precision enhancements https://github.com/elixir-nx/nx/blob/main/nx/CHANGELOG.md (https://github.com/elixir-nx/nx/blob/main/nx/CHANGELOG.md?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Nx v0.10 changelog including new advanced guides and NumPy comparison cheatsheets https://paraxial.io/blog/phoenix-security-docs (https://paraxial.io/blog/phoenix-security-docs?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Phoenix 1.8 gets official security documentation covering OWASP Top 10 vulnerabilities https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix/pull/6295 (https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix/pull/6295?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Pull request adding comprehensive security guide to Phoenix documentation https://bsky.app/profile/zachdaniel.dev/post/3lscszxpakc2o (https://bsky.app/profile/zachdaniel.dev/post/3lscszxpakc2o?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Zach Daniel announces new "evals" package for testing and comparing AI language models https://github.com/ash-project/evals (https://github.com/ash-project/evals?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Evals project for evaluating AI model performance on coding tasks with structured testing https://bsky.app/profile/elixirconf.bsky.social/post/3lsbt7anbda2o (https://bsky.app/profile/elixirconf.bsky.social/post/3lsbt7anbda2o?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – ElixirConf US speakers beginning to be announced including keynotes from José Valim and Chris McCord https://elixirconf.com/#keynotes (https://elixirconf.com/#keynotes?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – ElixirConf website showing keynote speakers and initial speaker lineup https://x.com/sasajuric/status/1937149387299316144 (https://x.com/sasajuric/status/1937149387299316144?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Saša Jurić shares collection of writings on Elixir project organization and structure recommendations https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-the-core-and-the-interface-c267f0da43 (https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-the-core-and-the-interface-c267f0da43?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Saša Jurić's article on organizing Elixir projects with core and interface separation https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-boundaries-ba013c731c0a (https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-boundaries-ba013c731c0a?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Article on using boundaries in Elixir applications for better structure https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-the-anatomy-of-a-core-module-b7372009ca6d (https://medium.com/very-big-things/towards-maintainable-elixir-the-anatomy-of-a-core-module-b7372009ca6d?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Deep dive into structuring core modules in Elixir applications https://github.com/sasa1977/mixphxalt (https://github.com/sasa1977/mix_phx_alt?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Demo project showing alternative Phoenix project structure with core/interface organization https://github.com/getsentry/sentry-elixir/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md#1100 (https://github.com/getsentry/sentry-elixir/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md#1100?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Sentry updates Elixir SDK to v11.x with tracing support using OpenTelemetry Do you have some Elixir news to share? Tell us at @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) or email at show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) Discussion Resources https://phoenix.new/ (https://phoenix.new/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – The Remote AI Runtime for Phoenix. Describe your app, and watch it take shape. Prototype quickly, experiment freely, and share instantly. https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1936074795843551667 (https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1936074795843551667?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – You can vibe code on your phone https://x.com/sukinoverse/status/1936163792720949601 (https://x.com/sukinoverse/status/1936163792720949601?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Another success example - Stripe integrations https://openai.com/index/openai-codex/ (https://openai.com/index/openai-codex/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – OpenAI Codex, Open AI's AI system that translates natural language to code https://devin.ai/ (https://devin.ai/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Devin is an AI coding agent and software engineer that helps developers build better software faster. Parallel cloud agents for serious engineering teams. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojL_VHc4gLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojL_VHc4gLk?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Chris McCord's ElixirConf EU Keynote talk titled "Code Generators are Dead. Long Live Code Generators" Guest Information - https://x.com/chris_mccord (https://x.com/chris_mccord?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on X/Twitter - https://github.com/chrismccord (https://github.com/chrismccord?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on Github - http://chrismccord.com/ (http://chrismccord.com/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Blog Find us online - Message the show - Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/thinkingelixir.com) - Message the show - X (https://x.com/ThinkingElixir) - Message the show on Fediverse - @ThinkingElixir@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/ThinkingElixir) - Email the show - show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) - Mark Ericksen on X - @brainlid (https://x.com/brainlid) - Mark Ericksen on Bluesky - @brainlid.bsky.social (https://bsky.app/profile/brainlid.bsky.social) - Mark Ericksen on Fediverse - @brainlid@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/brainlid) - David Bernheisel on Bluesky - @david.bernheisel.com (https://bsky.app/profile/david.bernheisel.com) - David Bernheisel on Fediverse - @dbern@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/dbern)

In the final episode of this series on Oracle GoldenGate 23ai, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham welcome back Nick Wagner, Senior Director of Product Management for GoldenGate, to discuss how parameters shape data replication. This episode covers parameter files, data selection, filtering, and transformation, providing essential insights for managing GoldenGate deployments.   Oracle GoldenGate 23ai: Fundamentals: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-goldengate-23ai-fundamentals/145884/237273 Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X: https://x.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, Kris-Ann Nansen, Radhika Banka, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------------- Podcast Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:25 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Team Lead: Editorial Services.  Nikita: Hi everyone! This is the last episode in our Oracle GoldenGate 23ai series. Previously, we looked at how you can manage Extract Trails and Files. If you missed that episode, do go back and give it a listen.  00:50 Lois: Today, Nick Wagner, Senior Director of Product Management for GoldenGate, is back on the podcast to tell us about parameters, data selection, filtering, and transformation. These are key components of GoldenGate because they allow us to control what data is replicated, how it's transformed, and where it's sent. Hi Nick! Thanks for joining us again. So, what are the different types of parameter files? Nick: We have a GLOBALS parameter file and your runtime parameter files. The global one is going to affect all processes within a deployment. It's going to be things like where's your checkpoint table located in name, things like the heartbeat table. You want to have a single one of these across your entire deployment, so it makes sense to keep it within a single file. We also have runtime parameter files. This are going to be associated with a specific extract or replicat process. These files are located in your OGG_ETC_HOME/conf/ogg. The GLOBALS file is just simply named GLOBALS and all capitals, and your parameter file names for the processes themselves are named with the process.prm. So if my extract process is EXT demo, my parameter file name will be extdemo.prm. When you make changes to parameter files, they don't take effect until the process is restarted. So in the case of a GLOBALS parameter file, you need to restart the administration service. And in a runtime parameter file, you need to restart that specific process before any changes will take effect. We also have what we call a managed process setting profile. And this allows you to set up auto restart profiles for each process. And the GoldenGate Gate classic architecture, this was contained within the GLOBALS parameter file and handled by the manager. And microservices is a little bit different, it's handled by the service manager itself. But now we actually set up profiles. 02:41 Nikita: Ok, so what can you tell us about the extract parameter file specifically?  Nick: There's a couple things within the extract parameter file is common use. First, we want to tell what the group name is. So in this case, it would be our extract name. We need to put in information on where the extract process is going to be writing the data it captures to and that would be our trail files, and extract process can write to one or more trail files. We also want to list out the list of tables and schemas that we're going to be capturing, as well as any kind of DDL changes. If we're doing an initial load, we want to set up the SQL predicate to determine which tables are being captured and put a WHERE clause on those to speed up performance. We can also do filtering within the extract process as well. So we write just the information that we need to the trail file. 03:27 Nikita: And what are the common parameters within an extract process? Nick: There are a couple of common parameters within your extract process. We have table to list out the list of tables that GoldenGate is going to be capturing from. These can be wildcarded. So I can simply do table.star and GoldenGate will capture all the tables in that database. I can also do schema.star and it will capture all the tables within a schema. We have our EXTTRAIL command, which tells GoldenGate which trail to write to. If I want to filter out certain rows and columns, I can use the filter cols and cols except parameter. GoldenGate can also capture sequence changes. So we would use the sequence parameter. And then we can also set some high-level database options for GoldenGate that affect all the tables and that's configured using the tranlog options parameter.  04:14 Lois: Nick, can you talk a bit about the different types of tranlogoptions settings? How can they be used to control what the extract process does? Nick: So one of the first ones is ExcludeTag. So GoldenGate has the ability to exclude tagged transactions. Within the database itself, you can actually specify a transaction to be tagged using a DBMS set tag option. GoldenGate replicat also sets its transactions with a tag so that the GoldenGate process knows which transactions were done by the replicat and it can exclude them automatically. You can do exclude tag with a plus. That simply means to exclude any transaction that's been tagged with any value. You can also exclude specific tags.  Another good option for TranLogOptions is enable procedural replication. This allows GoldenGate to actually capture and replicate database procedure calls, and this would be things like DBMS AQ, NQ operations, or DQ operations. So if you're using Oracle advanced queuing and you need GoldenGate to replicate those changes, it can.  Another valuable tranlogoption setting is enable auto capture. Within the Oracle Database, you can actually set ALTER TABLE command that says ALTER TABLE, enable logical replication. Or when you create a table, you can actually do CREATE TABLE statement and at the end use the enable logical replication option for that CREATE TABLE statement. And this tells GoldenGate to automatically capture that table. One of the nice features about this is that I don't need to specify that table and my parameter file, and it'll automatically enable supplemental logging on that table for me using scheduling columns. So it makes it very easy to set up replication between Oracle databases.  06:01 Nikita: Can you tell us about replicat parameters, Nick? Nick: Within a replicat, we'll have the group name, some common other parameters that we'll use is a mapping parameter that allows us to map the source to target table relationships. We can do transformation within the replicat, as well as error handling and controlling group operations to improve performance. Some common replicat parameters include the replicat parameter itself, which tells us what the name of that replicat is. We have our map statement, which allows us to map a source object to a target object. We have things like rep error that control how to handle errors. Insert all records allows us to change and convert, update, and delete operations into inserts. We can do things like compare calls, which helps with active-active replication in determining which columns are used in the GoldenGate WHERE clause. We also have the ability to use macros and column mapping to do additional transformation and make the parameter file look elegant. 07:07 AI is being used in nearly every industry…healthcare, manufacturing, retail, customer service, transportation, agriculture, you name it! And it's only going to get more prevalent and transformational in the future. It's no wonder that AI skills are the most sought-after by employers. If you're ready to dive in to AI, check out the OCI AI Foundations training and certification that's available for free! It's the perfect starting point to build your AI knowledge. So, get going! Head on over to mylearn.oracle.com to find out more. 07:47 Nikita: Welcome back! Let's move on to some of the most interesting topics within GoldenGate… data mapping, selection, and transformation. As I understand, users can do pretty cool things with GoldenGate. So Nick, let's start with how GoldenGate can manipulate, change, and map data between two different databases. Nick: The map statement within a Replicat parameter allows you to provide specifications on how you're going to map source and target objects. You can also use a map and an extract, but it's pretty rare. And that would be used if you needed to write the object name. Inside the trail files is a different name than the actual object name that you're capturing from. GoldenGate can also do different data selection, mapping, and manipulation, and this is all controlled within the Extract and Replicat parameter files. In the classic architecture of GoldenGate, you could do a rudimentary level of transformation and filtering within the extract pump. Now, the distribution service is only allowing you to do filtering. Any transformation that you had within the pump would need to be moved to the Extract or the Replicat process.  The other thing that you can do within GoldenGate is select and filter data based on different levels and conditions. So within your parameter clause, you have your Table and Map statement. That's the core of everything. You have your filtering. You have COLS and COLSEXCEPT, which allow you to determine which columns you're going to include or exclude from replication. The Table and Map statement works at the table level. The FILTER works at the row level. And COLS and COLSEXCEPTs works at the column level. We also have the ability to filter by operation type too. So GoldenGate has some very easy parameters called GitInserts, GitUpdates, GitDeletes, and conversely ignore updates, ignore deletes, ignore inserts. And that will affect the operation type. 09:40 Lois: Nick, are there any features that GoldenGate provides to make data replication easier? Nick: The first thing is that GoldenGate is going to automatically match your source and target column names with a parameter called USEDEFAULTS. You can specify it inside of your COLMAP clause, but again, it's a default, so you don't need to worry about it. We also handle all data type and character set conversion. Because we store the metadata in the trail, we know what that source data type is like. When we go to apply the record to the target table, the Replicat process is going to look up the definition of that record and keep a repository of that in memory. So that when it knows that, hey, this value coming in from the trail file is going to be of a date data type, and then this value in the target database is going to be a character data type, it knows how to convert that date to a character, and it'll do it for you. Most of the conversion is going to be done automatically for data types. Things where we don't do automatic data type conversion is if you're using abstract data types or user-defined data types, collections arrays, and then some types of CLOB operations. For example, if you're going from a BLOB to a JSON, that's not really going to work very well. Character set conversion is also done automatically. It's not necessarily done directly by GoldenGate, but it's done by the database engine. So there is a character set value inside that source database.  And when GoldenGate goes to apply those changes into the target system, it's ensuring that that character set is visible and named so that that database can do the necessary translation. You can also do advanced filtering transformation. There's tokens that you can attach from the source environment, database, or records into a record itself on the trail file. And then there's also a bunch of metadata that GoldenGate can use to attach to the record itself. And then of course, you can use data transformation within your COLMAP statement. 11:28 Nikita: Before we wrap up, what types of data transformations can we perform, Nick?  Nick: So there's quite a few different data transformations. We can do constructive or destructive transformation, aesthetic, and structural. 11:39 Lois: That's it for the Oracle GoldenGate 23ai: Fundamentals series. I think we covered a lot of ground this season. Thank you, Nick, for taking us through it all.  Nikita: Yeah, thank you so much, Nick. And if you want to learn more, head over to mylearn.oracle.com and search for the Oracle GoldenGate 23ai: Fundamentals course. Until next time, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off! 12:04 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Go With The Flow #1: Mastering N8N Automation with Visual Workflows

This show has been flagged as Explicit by the host. Introduction On 2025-06-19 Ken Fallon did a show, number 4404 , responding to Kevie's show 4398 , which came out on 2025-06-11. Kevie was using a Bash pipeline to find the latest episode in an RSS feed, and download it. He used grep to parse the XML of the feed. Ken's response was to suggest the use of xmlstarlet to parse the XML because such a complex structured format as XML cannot reliably be parsed without a program that "understands" the intricacies of the format's structure. The same applies to other complex formats such as HTML, YAML and JSON. In his show Ken presented a Bash script which dealt with this problem and that of the ordering of episodes in the feed. He asked how others would write such a script, and thus I was motivated to produce this response to his response! Alternative script My script is a remodelling of Ken's, not a completely different solution. It contains a few alternative ways of doing what Ken did, and a reordering of the parts of his original. We will examine the changes in this episode. Script #!/bin/bash # Original (c) CC-0 Ken Fallon 2025 # Modified by Dave Morriss, 2025-06-14 (c) CC-0 podcast="https://tuxjam.otherside.network/feed/podcast/" # [1] while read -r item do # [2] pubDate="${item%;*}" # [3] pubDate="$( \date --date="${pubDate}" --universal +%FT%T )" # [4] url="${item#*;}" # [5] echo "${pubDate};${url}" done <

ADS & Python Tools Didier explains how to use his tools cut-bytes.py and filescanner to extract information from alternate data streams. https://isc.sans.edu/diary/ADS%20%26%20Python%20Tools/32058 Enhanced security defaults for Windows 365 Cloud PCs Microsoft announced more secure default configurations for its Windows 365 Cloud PC offerings. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/enhanced-security-defaults-for-windows-365-cloud-pcs/4424914 CVE-2025-34508: Another File Sharing Application, Another Path Traversal Horizon3 reveals details of a recently patched directory traversal vulnerability in zend.to. https://horizon3.ai/attack-research/attack-blogs/cve-2025-34508-another-file-sharing-application-another-path-traversal/ Unexpected security footguns in Go's parsers Go parsers for JSON and XML are not always compatible and can parse data in unexpected ways. This blog by Trails of Bits goes over the various security implications of this behaviour. https://blog.trailofbits.com/2025/06/17/unexpected-security-footguns-in-gos-parsers/

tres herramientas espectaculares para ser mas eficiente en la #terminal #linux y poder navegar en #logs o en archivos #json de forma eficazAndaba buscando un título para este episodio, y cuando me he topado con este, me he dado cuenta de la verdad que encierra. Existen cientos o miles de herramientas para trabajar en la terminal de Linux, y sin embargo, en general se conocen unas pocas herramientas a penas. Me viene a la mente aquello de cuando todo lo que tienes es un martillo, todo te parece un clavo. Y es que en general, estamos acostumbrados a utilizar cat, less, grep, etc…, y sin embargo, existen herramientas mejores, mas eficientes y mas adecuadas para ciertos casos. Si siempre usas cat y less para ver logs o jq para ver archivos JSON, es como si estuvieras usando un martillo para apretar tornillos. Funciona… pero no es lo mejor. Hoy te traigo tres herramientas que son como tener el destornillador, la llave inglesa y la linterna que te faltaban.Más información y enlaces en las notas del episodio

tres herramientas espectaculares para ser mas eficiente en la #terminal #linux y poder navegar en #logs o en archivos #json de forma eficazAndaba buscando un título para este episodio, y cuando me he topado con este, me he dado cuenta de la verdad que encierra. Existen cientos o miles de herramientas para trabajar en la terminal de Linux, y sin embargo, en general se conocen unas pocas herramientas a penas. Me viene a la mente aquello de cuando todo lo que tienes es un martillo, todo te parece un clavo. Y es que en general, estamos acostumbrados a utilizar cat, less, grep, etc…, y sin embargo, existen herramientas mejores, mas eficientes y mas adecuadas para ciertos casos. Si siempre usas cat y less para ver logs o jq para ver archivos JSON, es como si estuvieras usando un martillo para apretar tornillos. Funciona… pero no es lo mejor. Hoy te traigo tres herramientas que son como tener el destornillador, la llave inglesa y la linterna que te faltaban.Más información y enlaces en las notas del episodio

Here comes SQL Server 2025! While at Build, Richard chatted with Bob Ward about releasing a preview version of SQL Server 2025. Bob discusses SQL Server 2025 as an AI-ready enterprise database with numerous capabilities specifically tailored to your organization's AI needs, including a new vector data type. This includes making REST API calls to Azure OpenAI, Ollama, or OpenAI. This is also the version of SQL Server designed to integrate with Microsoft Fabric through mirroring. There are many more features, even a new icon!LinksSQL Server 2025 AnnouncementJSON Data TypeOllamaRecorded May 20, 2025

Topics covered in this episode: * Free-threaded Python no longer “experimental” as of Python 3.14* typed-ffmpeg pyleak * Optimizing Test Execution: Running live_server Tests Last with pytest* Extras Joke Watch on YouTube About the show Sponsored by PropelAuth: pythonbytes.fm/propelauth66 Connect with the hosts Michael: @mkennedy@fosstodon.org / @mkennedy.codes (bsky) Brian: @brianokken@fosstodon.org / @brianokken.bsky.social Show: @pythonbytes@fosstodon.org / @pythonbytes.fm (bsky) Join us on YouTube at pythonbytes.fm/live to be part of the audience. Usually Monday at 10am PT. Older video versions available there too. Finally, if you want an artisanal, hand-crafted digest of every week of the show notes in email form? Add your name and email to our friends of the show list, we'll never share it. Brian #1: Free-threaded Python no longer “experimental” as of Python 3.14 “PEP 779 ("Criteria for supported status for free-threaded Python") has been accepted, which means free-threaded Python is now a supported build!” - Hugo van Kemenade PEP 779 – Criteria for supported status for free-threaded Python As noted in the discussion of PEP 779, “The Steering Council (SC) approves PEP 779, with the effect of removing the “experimental” tag from the free-threaded build of Python 3.14.” We are in Phase II then. “We are confident that the project is on the right path, and we appreciate the continued dedication from everyone working to make free-threading ready for broader adoption across the Python community.” “Keep in mind that any decision to transition to Phase III, with free-threading as the default or sole build of Python is still undecided, and dependent on many factors both within CPython itself and the community. We leave that decision for the future.” How long will all this take? According to Thomas Wouters, a few years, at least: “In other words: it'll be a few years at least. It can't happen before 3.16 (because we won't have Stable ABI support until 15) and may well take longer.” Michael #2: typed-ffmpeg typed-ffmpeg offers a modern, Pythonic interface to FFmpeg, providing extensive support for complex filters with detailed typing and documentation. Inspired by ffmpeg-python, this package enhances functionality by addressing common limitations, such as lack of IDE integration and comprehensive typing, while also introducing new features like JSON serialization of filter graphs and automatic FFmpeg validation. Features : Zero Dependencies: Built purely with the Python standard library, ensuring maximum compatibility and security. User-Friendly: Simplifies the construction of filter graphs with an intuitive Pythonic interface. Comprehensive FFmpeg Filter Support: Out-of-the-box support for most FFmpeg filters, with IDE auto-completion. Integrated Documentation: In-line docstrings provide immediate reference for filter usage, reducing the need to consult external documentation. Robust Typing: Offers static and dynamic type checking, enhancing code reliability and development experience. Filter Graph Serialization: Enables saving and reloading of filter graphs in JSON format for ease of use and repeatability. Graph Visualization: Leverages graphviz for visual representation, aiding in understanding and debugging. Validation and Auto-correction: Assists in identifying and fixing errors within filter graphs. Input and Output Options Support: Provide a more comprehensive interface for input and output options, including support for additional codecs and formats. Partial Evaluation: Enhance the flexibility of filter graphs by enabling partial evaluation, allowing for modular construction and reuse. Media File Analysis: Built-in support for analyzing media files using FFmpeg's ffprobe utility, providing detailed metadata extraction with both dictionary and dataclass interfaces. Michael #3: pyleak Detect leaked asyncio tasks, threads, and event loop blocking with stack trace in Python. Inspired by goleak. Use as context managers or function dectorators When using no_task_leaks, you get detailed stack trace information showing exactly where leaked tasks are executing and where they were created. Even has great examples and a pytest plugin. Brian #4: Optimizing Test Execution: Running live_server Tests Last with pytest Tim Kamanin “When working with Django applications, it's common to have a mix of fast unit tests and slower end-to-end (E2E) tests that use pytest's live_server fixture and browser automation tools like Playwright or Selenium. ” Tim is running E2E tests last for Faster feedback from quick tests To not tie up resources early in the test suite. He did this with custom “e2e” marker Implementing a pytest_collection_modifyitems hook function to look for tests using the live_server fixture, and for them automatically add the e2e marker to those tests move those tests to the end The reason for the marker is to be able to Just run e2e tests with -m e2e Avoid running them sometimes with -m "not e2e" Cool small writeup. The technique works for any system that has some tests that are slower or resource bound based on a particular fixture or set of fixtures. Extras Brian: Is Free-Threading Our Only Option? - Interesting discussion started by Eric Snow and recommended by John Hagen Free-threaded Python on GitHub Actions - How to add FT tests to your projects, by Hugo van Kemenade Michael: New course! LLM Building Blocks in Python Talk Python Deep Dives Complete: 600K Words of Talk Python Insights .folders on Linux Write up on XDG for Python devs. They keep pulling me back - ChatGPT Pro with o3-pro Python Bytes is the #1 Python news podcast and #17 of all tech news podcasts. Python 3.13.4, 3.12.11, 3.11.13, 3.10.18 and 3.9.23 are now available Python 3.13.5 is now available! Joke: Naming is hard

Dans cet épisode, c'est le retour de Katia et d'Antonio. Les Cast Codeurs explorent WebAssembly 2.0, les 30 ans de Java, l'interopérabilité Swift-Java et les dernières nouveautés Kotlin. Ils plongent dans l'évolution de l'IA avec Claude 4 et GPT-4.1, débattent de la conscience artificielle et partagent leurs retours d'expérience sur l'intégration de l'IA dans le développement. Entre virtualisation, défis d'infrastructure et enjeux de sécurité open source, une discussion riche en insights techniques et pratiques. Enregistré le 13 juin 2025 Téléchargement de l'épisode LesCastCodeurs-Episode-327.mp3 ou en vidéo sur YouTube. News Langages Wasm 2.0 enfin officialisé ! https://webassembly.org/news/2025-03-20-wasm-2.0/ La spécification Wasm 2.0 est officiellement sortie en décembre dernier. Le consensus sur la spécification avait été atteint plus tôt, en 2022. Les implémentations majeures supportent Wasm 2.0 depuis un certain temps. Le processus W3C a pris du temps pour atteindre le statut de “Recommandation Candidate” pour des raisons non techniques. Les futures versions de Wasm adopteront un modèle “evergreen” où la “Recommandation Candidate” sera mise à jour en place. La dernière version de la spécification est considérée comme le standard actuel (Candidate Recommendation Draft). La version la plus à jour est disponible sur la page GitHub (GitHub page). Wasm 2.0 inclut les nouveautés suivantes : Instructions vectorielles pour le SIMD 128-bit. Instructions de manipulation de mémoire en bloc pour des copies et initialisations plus rapides. Résultats multiples pour les instructions, blocs et fonctions. Types références pour les références à des fonctions ou objets externes. Conversions non-piégeantes de flottant à entier. Instructions d'extension de signe pour les entiers signés. Wasm 2.0 est entièrement rétrocompatible avec Wasm 1.0. Paul Sandoz annonce que le JDK intègrera bientôt une API minimaliste pour lire et écrire du JSON https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2025-May/145905.html Java a 30 ans, c'était quoi les points bluffants au début ? https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2025/05/do-you-really-know-java/ nom de code Oak Mais le trademark était pris Write Once Run Anywhere Garbage Collector Automatique multi threading au coeur de la palteforme meme si Java est passé par les green threads pendant un temps modèle de sécurité: sandbox applets, security manager, bytecode verifier, classloader Des progrès dans l'interopérabilité Swift / Java mentionnés à la conférence Apple WWDC 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHO-GUGidA Interopérabilité Swift-Java : Utiliser Swift dans des apps Java et vice-versa. Historique : L'interopérabilité Swift existait déjà avec C et C++. Méthodes : Deux directions d'interopérabilité : Java depuis Swift et Swift depuis Java. JNI : JNI est l'API Java pour le code natif, mais elle est verbeuse. Swift-Java : Un projet pour une interaction Swift-Java plus flexible, sûre et performante. Exemples pratiques : Utiliser des bibliothèques Java depuis Swift et rendre des bibliothèques Swift disponibles pour Java. Gestion mémoire : Swift-Java utilise la nouvelle API FFM de Java pour gérer la mémoire des objets Swift. Open Source : Le projet Swift-Java est open source et invite aux contributions. KotlinConf le retour https://www.sfeir.dev/tendances/kotlinconf25-quelles-sont-les-annonces-a-retenir/ par Adelin de Sfeir “1 developeur sur 10” utilise Kotlin Kotlin 2.2 en RC $$ multi dollar interpolation pour eviter les sur interpolations non local break / continue (changement dans la conssitance de Kotlin guards sur le pattern matching D'autres features annoncées alignement des versions de l'ecosysteme sur kotlin jvm par defaut un nouvel outil de build Amper beaucoup d'annonces autour de l'IA Koog, framework agentique de maniere declarative nouvelle version du LLM de JetBrains: Mellum (focalisé sur le code) Kotlin et Compose multiplateforme (stable en iOS) Hot Reload dans compose en alpha partenariat strategque avec Spring pour bien integrer kotlin dans spring Librairies Sortie d'une version Java de ADK, le framework d'agents IA lancé par Google https://glaforge.dev/posts/2025/05/20/writing-java-ai-agents-with-adk-for-java-getting-started/ Guillaume a travaillé sur le lancement de ce framework ! (améliorations de l'API, code d'exemple, doc…) Comment déployer un serveur MCP en Java, grâce à Quarkus, et le déployer sur Google Cloud Run https://glaforge.dev/posts/2025/06/09/building-an-mcp-server-with-quarkus-and-deploying-on-google-cloud-run/ Même Guillaume se met à faire du Quarkus ! Utilisation du support MCP développé par l'équipe Quarkus. C'est facile, suffit d'annoter une méthode avec @Tool et ses arguments avec @ToolArg et c'est parti ! L'outil MCP inspector est très pratique pour inspecter manuellement le fonctionnement de ses serveurs MCP Déployer sur Cloud Run est facile grâce aux Dockerfiles fournis par Quarkus En bonus, Guillaume montre comment configuré un serveur MCP comme un outil dans le framework ADK pour Java, pour créer ses agents IA Jilt 1.8 est sorti, un annotation processor pour le pattern builder https://www.endoflineblog.com/jilt-1_8-and-1_8_1-released processing incrémental pour Gradle meilleure couverture de votre code (pour ne pas comptabiliser le code généré par l'annotation processeur) une correction d'un problème lors de l'utilisation des types génériques récursifs (genre Node Hibernate Search 8 est sorti https://in.relation.to/2025/06/06/hibernate-search-8-0-0-Final/ aggregation de metriques compatibilité avec les dernieres OpenSearch et Elasticsearch Lucene 10 en backend Preview des requetes validées à la compilation Hibernate 7 est sorti https://in.relation.to/2025/05/20/hibernate-orm-seven/ ASL 2.0 Hibernate Validator 9 Jakarta Persistence 3.2 et Jakarta Validation 3.1 saveOrUpdate (reattachement d'entité) n'est plus supporté session stateless plus capable: oeprations unitaires et pas seulement bach, acces au cache de second niveau, m,eilleure API pour les batchs (insertMultiple etc) nouvelle API criteria simple et type-safe: et peut ajouter a une requete de base Un article qui décrit la Dev UI de Quarkus https://www.sfeir.dev/back/quarkus-dev-ui-linterface-ultime-pour-booster-votre-productivite-en-developpement-java/ apres un test pour soit ou une demo, c'est un article détaillé et la doc de Quarkus n'est pas top là dessus Vert.x 5 est sorti https://vertx.io/blog/eclipse-vert-x-5-released/ on en avait parlé fin de l'année dernière ou début d'année Modèle basé uniquement sur les Futures : Vert.x 5 abandonne le modèle de callbacks pour ne conserver que les Futures, avec une nouvelle classe de base VerticleBase mieux adaptée à ce modèle asynchrone. Support des modules Java (JPMS) : Vert.x 5 prend en charge le système de modules de la plateforme Java avec des modules explicites, permettant une meilleure modularité des applications. Améliorations majeures de gRPC : Support natif de gRPC Web et gRPC Transcoding (support HTTP/JSON et gRPC), format JSON en plus de Protobuf, gestion des timeouts et deadlines, services de réflexion et de health. Support d'io_uring : Intégration native du système io_uring de Linux (précédemment en incubation) pour de meilleures performances I/O sur les systèmes compatibles. Load balancing côté client : Nouvelles capacités de répartition de charge pour les clients HTTP et gRPC avec diverses politiques de distribution. Service Resolver : Nouveau composant pour la résolution dynamique d'adresses de services, étendant les capacités de load balancing à un ensemble plus large de résolveurs. Améliorations du proxy HTTP : Nouvelles transformations prêtes à l'emploi, interception des upgrades WebSocket et interface SPI pour le cache avec support étendu des spécifications. Suppressions et remplacements : Plusieurs composants sont dépréciés (gRPC Netty, JDBC API, Service Discovery) ou supprimés (Vert.x Sync, RxJava 1), remplacés par des alternatives plus modernes comme les virtual threads et Mutiny. Spring AI 1.0 est sorti https://spring.io/blog/2025/05/20/spring-ai-1-0-GA-released ChatClient multi-modèles : API unifiée pour interagir avec 20 modèles d'IA différents avec support multi-modal et réponses JSON structurées. Écosystème RAG complet : Support de 20 bases vectorielles, pipeline ETL et enrichissement automatique des prompts via des advisors. Fonctionnalités enterprise : Mémoire conversationnelle persistante, support MCP, observabilité Micrometer et évaluateurs automatisés. Agents et workflows : Patterns prédéfinis (routing, orchestration, chaînage) et agents autonomes pour applications d'IA complexes. Infrastructure Les modèles d'IA refusent d'être éteint et font du chantage pour l'eviter, voire essaient se saboter l'extinction https://www.thealgorithmicbridge.com/p/ai-companies-have-lost-controland?utm_source=substac[…]aign=email-restack-comment&r=2qoalf&triedRedirect=true Les chercheur d'Anthropic montrent comment Opus 4 faisait du chantage aux ingenieurs qui voulaient l'eteindre pour mettre une nouvelle version en ligne Une boite de recherche a montré la même chose d'Open AI o3 non seulemenmt il ne veut pas mais il essaye activement d'empêcher l'extinction Apple annonce le support de la virtualisation / conteneurisation dans macOS lors de la WWDC https://github.com/apple/containerization C'est open source Possibilité de lancer aussi des VM légères Documentation technique : https://apple.github.io/containerization/documentation/ Grosse chute de services internet suite à un soucis sur GCP Le retour de cloud flare https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-service-outage-june-12-2025/ Leur système de stockage (une dépendance majeure) dépend exclusivement de GCP Mais ils ont des plans pour surfit de cette dépendance exclusive la première analyse de Google https://status.cloud.google.com/incidents/ow5i3PPK96RduMcb1SsW Un quota auto mis à jour qui a mal tourné. ils ont bypassé le quota en code mais le service de quote en us-central1 était surchargé. Prochaines améliorations: pas d propagation de données corrompues, pas de déploiement global sans rolling upgrade avec monitoring qui peut couper par effet de bord (fail over) certains autres cloud providers ont aussi eu quelques soucis (charge) - unverified Data et Intelligence Artificielle Claude 4 est sorti https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-4 Deux nouveaux modèles lancés : Claude Opus 4 (le meilleur modèle de codage au monde) et Claude Sonnet 4 (une amélioration significative de Sonnet 3.7) Claude Opus 4 atteint 72,5% sur SWE-bench et peut maintenir des performances soutenues sur des tâches longues durant plusieurs heures Claude Sonnet 4 obtient 72,7% sur SWE-bench tout en équilibrant performance et efficacité pour un usage quotidien Nouvelle fonctionnalité de “pensée étendue avec utilisation d'outils” permettant à Claude d'alterner entre raisonnement et usage d'outils Les modèles peuvent maintenant utiliser plusieurs outils en parallèle et suivre les instructions avec plus de précision Capacités mémoire améliorées : Claude peut extraire et sauvegarder des informations clés pour maintenir la continuité sur le long terme Claude Code devient disponible à tous avec intégrations natives VS Code et JetBrains pour la programmation en binôme Quatre nouvelles capacités API : outil d'exécution de code, connecteur MCP, API Files et mise en cache des prompts Les modèles hybrides offrent deux modes : réponses quasi-instantanées et pensée étendue pour un raisonnement plus approfondi en mode “agentique” L'intégration de l'IA au delà des chatbots et des boutons à étincelles https://glaforge.dev/posts/2025/05/23/beyond-the-chatbot-or-ai-sparkle-a-seamless-ai-integration/ Plaidoyer pour une IA intégrée de façon transparente et intuitive, au-delà des chatbots. Chatbots : pas toujours l'option LLM la plus intuitive ou la moins perturbatrice. Préconisation : IA directement dans les applications pour plus d'intelligence et d'utilité naturelle. Exemples d'intégration transparente : résumés des conversations Gmail et chat, web clipper Obsidian qui résume et taggue, complétion de code LLM. Meilleure UX IA : intégrée, contextuelle, sans “boutons IA” ou fenêtres de chat dédiées. Conclusion de Guillaume : intégrations IA réussies = partie naturelle du système, améliorant les workflows sans perturbation, le développeur ou l'utilisateur reste dans le “flow” Garder votre base de donnée vectorielle à jour avec Debezium https://debezium.io/blog/2025/05/19/debezium-as-part-of-your-ai-solution/ pas besoin de detailler mais expliquer idee de garder les changements a jour dans l'index Outillage guide pratique pour choisir le bon modèle d'IA à utiliser avec GitHub Copilot, en fonction de vos besoins en développement logiciel. https://github.blog/ai-and-ml/github-copilot/which-ai-model-should-i-use-with-github-copilot/ - Équilibre coût/performance : GPT-4.1, GPT-4o ou Claude 3.5 Sonnet pour des tâches générales et multilingues. - Tâches rapides : o4-mini ou Claude 3.5 Sonnet pour du prototypage ou de l'apprentissage rapide. - Besoins complexes : Claude 3.7 Sonnet, GPT-4.5 ou o3 pour refactorisation ou planification logicielle. - Entrées multimodales : Gemini 2.0 Flash ou GPT-4o pour analyser images, UI ou diagrammes. - Projets techniques/scientifiques : Gemini 2.5 Pro pour raisonnement avancé et gros volumes de données. UV, un package manager pour les pythonistes qui amène un peu de sanité et de vitesse http://blog.ippon.fr/2025/05/12/uv-un-package-manager-python-adapte-a-la-data-partie-1-theorie-et-fonctionnalites/ pour les pythonistes un ackage manager plus rapide et simple mais il est seulement semi ouvert (license) IntelliJ IDEA 2025.1 permet de rajouter un mode MCP client à l'assistant IA https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2025/05/intellij-idea-2025-1-model-context-protocol/ par exemple faire tourner un MCP server qui accède à la base de donnée Méthodologies Développement d'une bibliothèque OAuth 2.1 open source par Cloudflare, en grande partie générée par l'IA Claude: - Prompts intégrés aux commits : Chaque commit contient le prompt utilisé, ce qui facilite la compréhension de l'intention derrière le code. - Prompt par l'exemple : Le premier prompt montrait un exemple d'utilisation de l'API qu'on souhaite obtenir, ce qui a permis à l'IA de mieux comprendre les attentes. - Prompts structurés : Les prompts les plus efficaces suivaient un schéma clair : état actuel, justification du changement, et directive précise. - Traitez les prompts comme du code source : Les inclure dans les commits aide à la maintenance. - Acceptez les itérations : Chaque fonctionnalité a nécessité plusieurs essais. - Intervention humaine indispensable : Certaines tâches restent plus rapides à faire à la main. https://www.maxemitchell.com/writings/i-read-all-of-cloudflares-claude-generated-commits/ Sécurité Un packet npm malicieux passe par Cursor AI pour infecter les utilisateurs https://thehackernews.com/2025/05/malicious-npm-packages-infect-3200.html Trois packages npm malveillants ont été découverts ciblant spécifiquement l'éditeur de code Cursor sur macOS, téléchargés plus de 3 200 fois au total.Les packages se déguisent en outils de développement promettant “l'API Cursor la moins chère” pour attirer les développeurs intéressés par des solutions AI abordables. Technique d'attaque sophistiquée : les packages volent les identifiants utilisateur, récupèrent un payload chiffré depuis des serveurs contrôlés par les pirates, puis remplacent le fichier main.js de Cursor. Persistance assurée en désactivant les mises à jour automatiques de Cursor et en redémarrant l'application avec le code malveillant intégré. Nouvelle méthode de compromission : au lieu d'injecter directement du malware, les attaquants publient des packages qui modifient des logiciels légitimes déjà installés sur le système. Persistance même après suppression : le malware reste actif même si les packages npm malveillants sont supprimés, nécessitant une réinstallation complète de Cursor. Exploitation de la confiance : en s'exécutant dans le contexte d'une application légitime (IDE), le code malveillant hérite de tous ses privilèges et accès. Package “rand-user-agent” compromis : un package légitime populaire a été infiltré pour déployer un cheval de Troie d'accès distant (RAT) dans certaines versions. Recommandations de sécurité : surveiller les packages exécutant des scripts post-installation, modifiant des fichiers hors node_modules, ou initiant des appels réseau inattendus, avec monitoring d'intégrité des fichiers. Loi, société et organisation Le drama OpenRewrite (automatisation de refactoring sur de larges bases de code) est passé en mode propriétaire https://medium.com/@jonathan.leitschuh/when-open-source-isnt-how-openrewrite-lost-its-way-642053be287d Faits Clés : Moderne, Inc. a re-licencié silencieusement du code OpenRewrite (dont rewrite-java-security) de la licence Apache 2.0 à une licence propriétaire (MPL) sans consultation des contributeurs. Ce re-licenciement rend le code inaccessible et non modifiable pour les contributeurs originaux. Moderne s'est retiré de la Commonhaus Foundation (dédiée à l'open source) juste avant ces changements. La justification de Moderne est la crainte que de grandes entreprises utilisent OpenRewrite sans contribuer, créant une concurrence. Des contributions communautaires importantes (VMware, AliBaba) sous Apache 2.0 ont été re-licenciées sans leur consentement. La légalité de ce re-licenciement est incertaine sans CLA des contributeurs. Cette action crée un précédent dangereux pour les futurs contributeurs et nuit à la confiance dans l'écosystème OpenRewrite. Corrections de Moderne (Suite aux réactions) : Les dépôts Apache originaux ont été restaurés et archivés. Des versions majeures ont été utilisées pour signaler les changements de licence. Des espaces de noms distincts (org.openrewrite vs. io.moderne) ont été créés pour différencier les modules. Suggestions de Correction de l'Auteur : Annuler les changements de licence sur toutes les recettes communautaires. S'engager dans le dialogue et communiquer publiquement les changements majeurs. Respecter le versionnement sémantique (versions majeures pour les changements de licence). L'ancien gourou du design d'Apple, Jony Ive, va occuper un rôle majeur chez OpenAI OpenAI va acquérir la startup d'Ive pour 6,5 milliards de dollars, tandis qu'Ive et le PDG Sam Altman travaillent sur une nouvelle génération d'appareils et d'autres produits d'IA https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/former-apple-design-guru-jony-ive-to-take-expansive-role-at-openai-5787f7da Rubrique débutant Un article pour les débutants sur le lien entre source, bytecode et le debug https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2025/05/sources-bytecode-debugging/ le debugger voit le bytecode et le lien avec la ligne ou la methode est potentiellement perdu javac peut ajouter les ligne et offset des operations pour que le debugger les affichent les noms des arguments est aussi ajoutable dans le .class quand vous pointez vers une mauvaise version du fichier source, vous avez des lignes decalées, c'est pour ca peu de raisons de ne pas actier des approches de compilations mais cela rend le fichier un peu plus gros Conférences La liste des conférences provenant de Developers Conferences Agenda/List par Aurélie Vache et contributeurs : 11-13 juin 2025 : Devoxx Poland - Krakow (Poland) 12-13 juin 2025 : Agile Tour Toulouse - Toulouse (France) 12-13 juin 2025 : DevLille - Lille (France) 13 juin 2025 : Tech F'Est 2025 - Nancy (France) 17 juin 2025 : Mobilis In Mobile - Nantes (France) 19-21 juin 2025 : Drupal Barcamp Perpignan 2025 - Perpignan (France) 24 juin 2025 : WAX 2025 - Aix-en-Provence (France) 25 juin 2025 : Rust Paris 2025 - Paris (France) 25-26 juin 2025 : Agi'Lille 2025 - Lille (France) 25-27 juin 2025 : BreizhCamp 2025 - Rennes (France) 26-27 juin 2025 : Sunny Tech - Montpellier (France) 1-4 juillet 2025 : Open edX Conference - 2025 - Palaiseau (France) 7-9 juillet 2025 : Riviera DEV 2025 - Sophia Antipolis (France) 5 septembre 2025 : JUG Summer Camp 2025 - La Rochelle (France) 12 septembre 2025 : Agile Pays Basque 2025 - Bidart (France) 18-19 septembre 2025 : API Platform Conference - Lille (France) & Online 23 septembre 2025 : OWASP AppSec France 2025 - Paris (France) 25-26 septembre 2025 : Paris Web 2025 - Paris (France) 2-3 octobre 2025 : Volcamp - Clermont-Ferrand (France) 3 octobre 2025 : DevFest Perros-Guirec 2025 - Perros-Guirec (France) 6-7 octobre 2025 : Swift Connection 2025 - Paris (France) 6-10 octobre 2025 : Devoxx Belgium - Antwerp (Belgium) 7 octobre 2025 : BSides Mulhouse - Mulhouse (France) 9 octobre 2025 : DevCon #25 : informatique quantique - Paris (France) 9-10 octobre 2025 : Forum PHP 2025 - Marne-la-Vallée (France) 9-10 octobre 2025 : EuroRust 2025 - Paris (France) 16 octobre 2025 : PlatformCon25 Live Day Paris - Paris (France) 16 octobre 2025 : Power 365 - 2025 - Lille (France) 16-17 octobre 2025 : DevFest Nantes - Nantes (France) 30-31 octobre 2025 : Agile Tour Bordeaux 2025 - Bordeaux (France) 30-31 octobre 2025 : Agile Tour Nantais 2025 - Nantes (France) 30 octobre 2025-2 novembre 2025 : PyConFR 2025 - Lyon (France) 4-7 novembre 2025 : NewCrafts 2025 - Paris (France) 5-6 novembre 2025 : Tech Show Paris - Paris (France) 6 novembre 2025 : dotAI 2025 - Paris (France) 7 novembre 2025 : BDX I/O - Bordeaux (France) 12-14 novembre 2025 : Devoxx Morocco - Marrakech (Morocco) 13 novembre 2025 : DevFest Toulouse - Toulouse (France) 15-16 novembre 2025 : Capitole du Libre - Toulouse (France) 19 novembre 2025 : SREday Paris 2025 Q4 - Paris (France) 20 novembre 2025 : OVHcloud Summit - Paris (France) 21 novembre 2025 : DevFest Paris 2025 - Paris (France) 27 novembre 2025 : DevFest Strasbourg 2025 - Strasbourg (France) 28 novembre 2025 : DevFest Lyon - Lyon (France) 5 décembre 2025 : DevFest Dijon 2025 - Dijon (France) 10-11 décembre 2025 : Devops REX - Paris (France) 10-11 décembre 2025 : Open Source Experience - Paris (France) 28-31 janvier 2026 : SnowCamp 2026 - Grenoble (France) 2-6 février 2026 : Web Days Convention - Aix-en-Provence (France) 3 février 2026 : Cloud Native Days France 2026 - Paris (France) 23-25 avril 2026 : Devoxx Greece - Athens (Greece) 17 juin 2026 : Devoxx Poland - Krakow (Poland) Nous contacter Pour réagir à cet épisode, venez discuter sur le groupe Google https://groups.google.com/group/lescastcodeurs Contactez-nous via X/twitter https://twitter.com/lescastcodeurs ou Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/lescastcodeurs.com Faire un crowdcast ou une crowdquestion Soutenez Les Cast Codeurs sur Patreon https://www.patreon.com/LesCastCodeurs Tous les épisodes et toutes les infos sur https://lescastcodeurs.com/

Every once in awhile we release a new episode free for all to see, and today is that day! Please enjoy this episode, and if you find this interesting you may want to consider a subscription https://www.pointfree.co/pricing. --- We conclude our series on “modern persistence” with advanced queries that leverage reusable SQL builders, “safe” SQL strings, and complex aggregations, including JSON arrays and a query that selects many stats in a single query.

In der heutigen Folge lernst du Marc Seiderer, Product Owner der RIS-API, aus der Konzernleitung der Deutschen Bahn kennen. Gemeinsam sprechen wir über den modularen Baukasten der Reisendeninformation und wie dieser die Brücke zwischen komplexen Datenquellen und konkretem Kundennutzen schlägt – Du erfährst unter anderem: • Warum Reisendeninformation jeden betrifft – egal ob Bahnmitarbeiter:in oder Fahrgast • Wie die RIS-API als flexibler Baukasten eine verlässliche, konsistente und abnehmergerechte Datenversorgung ermöglicht • Der technische Unterbau: Microservices, MQTT, JSON, JAVA, Prometheus/Grafana • Agile Zusammenarbeit in sechs Teams – und eine Kultur, die durch Leidenschaft, Vielfalt und Zusammenhalt geprägt ist • Warum Marc heute mit voller Überzeugung für die DB arbeitet – obwohl das früher für ihn undenkbar war Mehr dazu im Interview. Jobs: Wenn auch du eine verlässliche, konsistente und abnehmergerechte Datenversorgung ermöglichen willst, dann schaue jetzt vorbei auf db.jobs. Links zur Folge: https://mobilitaetgestalten.deutschebahn.com/portfolio/reisendeninteraktion/reisendeninformation/ri-daten-services# Get in touch. Gast: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marc-seiderer-2bbb84105/ Mein LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-g%C3%B6tze-178516a6/ Erfahre mehr über die IT-Welt bei der Deutschen Bahn: https://db.jobs/de-de/dein-einstieg/akademische-professionals/it

Mark Ericksen, creator of the Elixir LangChain framework, joins the Elixir Wizards to talk about LLM integration in Elixir apps. He explains how LangChain abstracts away the quirks of different AI providers (OpenAI, Anthropic's Claude, Google's Gemini) so you can work with any LLM in one more consistent API. We dig into core features like conversation chaining, tool execution, automatic retries, and production-grade fallback strategies. Mark shares his experiences maintaining LangChain in a fast-moving AI world: how it shields developers from API drift, manages token budgets, and handles rate limits and outages. He also reveals testing tactics for non-deterministic AI outputs, configuration tips for custom authentication, and the highlights of the new v0.4 release, including “content parts” support for thinking-style models. Key topics discussed in this episode: • Abstracting LLM APIs behind a unified Elixir interface • Building and managing conversation chains across multiple models • Exposing application functionality to LLMs through tool integrations • Automatic retries and fallback chains for production resilience • Supporting a variety of LLM providers • Tracking and optimizing token usage for cost control • Configuring API keys, authentication, and provider-specific settings • Handling rate limits and service outages with degradation • Processing multimodal inputs (text, images) in Langchain workflows • Extracting structured data from unstructured LLM responses • Leveraging “content parts” in v0.4 for advanced thinking-model support • Debugging LLM interactions using verbose logging and telemetry • Kickstarting experiments in LiveBook notebooks and demos • Comparing Elixir LangChain to the original Python implementation • Crafting human-in-the-loop workflows for interactive AI features • Integrating Langchain with the Ash framework for chat-driven interfaces • Contributing to open-source LLM adapters and staying ahead of API changes • Building fallback chains (e.g., OpenAI → Azure) for seamless continuity • Embedding business logic decisions directly into AI-powered tools • Summarization techniques for token efficiency in ongoing conversations • Batch processing tactics to leverage lower-cost API rate tiers • Real-world lessons on maintaining uptime amid LLM service disruptions Links mentioned: https://rubyonrails.org/ https://fly.io/ https://zionnationalpark.com/ https://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/ https://github.com/brainlid/langchain https://openai.com/ https://claude.ai/ https://gemini.google.com/ https://www.anthropic.com/ Vertex AI Studio https://cloud.google.com/generative-ai-studio https://www.perplexity.ai/ https://azure.microsoft.com/ https://hexdocs.pm/ecto/Ecto.html https://oban.pro/ Chris McCord's ElixirConf EU 2025 Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojL_VHc4gLk Getting started: https://hexdocs.pm/langchain/gettingstarted.html https://ash-hq.org/ https://hex.pm/packages/langchain https://hexdocs.pm/igniter/readme.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM9iQlQSFg @brainlid on Twitter and BlueSky Special Guest: Mark Ericksen.

OctoSQL & Vulnerability Data OctoSQL is a neat tool to query files in different formats using SQL. This can, for example, be used to query the JSON vulnerability files from CISA or NVD and create interesting joins between different files. https://isc.sans.edu/diary/OctoSQL+Vulnerability+Data/32026 Mirai vs. Wazuh The Mirai botnet has now been observed exploiting a vulnerability in the open-source EDR tool Wazuh. https://www.akamai.com/blog/security-research/botnets-flaw-mirai-spreads-through-wazuh-vulnerability DNS4EU The European Union created its own public recursive resolver to offer a public resolver compliant with European privacy laws. This resolver is currently operated by ENISA, but the intent is to have a commercial entity operate and support it by a commercial entity. https://www.joindns4.eu/ WordPress FAIR Package Manager Recent legal issues around different WordPress-related entities have made it more difficult to maintain diverse sources of WordPress plugins. With WordPress plugins usually being responsible for many of the security issues, the Linux Foundation has come forward to support the FAIR Package Manager, a tool intended to simplify the management of WordPress packages. https://github.com/fairpm

In this episode, I chat with Jonathan, a rapidly rising expert on Twitter known for building and scaling AI-driven marketing automations using tools like n8n and custom API integrations. We explore the practical realities of "vibe marketing" automation beyond hype, revealing how real-world workflows are being constructed today and why true expertise in marketing is essential for effective automation. Listeners will gain insights into automating audience research, creative production, and ad performance analysis at scale, as well as actionable tips for getting started and leveraging AI tools to 10x their output.Timestamps(00:00) – Introduction to Jonathan and Marketing Automation The host introduces Jonathan and sets the stage for a discussion on modern marketing automation tools and why they're currently so powerful.(02:45) – Jonathan's Background and Automation Journey Jonathan shares how he got into marketing automation, his paid ads background, and the evolution from manual work to automation.(07:30) – Key Tools and Stack for Automation The host and Jonathan discuss their tech stacks, highlighting n8n, railway.com, and custom front-end interfaces to streamline automation.(12:15) – Top Marketing Automation Workflows Jonathan outlines his most effective workflows: audience research, creative generation, and scaling marketing insights.(18:00) – Audience Research Automation: Reddit Scraping and Analysis A deep dive into using n8n to scrape Reddit, filter and analyze discussions, and extract actionable marketing insights and customer language.(25:40) – Twitter Insights Automation How Jonathan automates scraping Twitter for popular posts, identifying top-performing content and structuring it for ongoing content creation.(31:10) – Creative Production Automation Jonathan explains workflows for bulk generating ad variations using OpenAI's Image Gen API, including reference image analysis and prompt engineering.(38:20) – Custom Front-End Interfaces for Workflows The pair discuss integrating user-friendly front-end UIs (using Lovable or Bolt) with n8n backend automations for client and team use.(44:50) – Automating Ad Performance Analysis Jonathan describes a flow for pulling and analyzing Facebook Ads data, using sub-agents for performance analysis, deep research, and new ad creation.(51:10) – Video Ad Automation and Future Trends A look at how video ad automation is evolving and the current limitations and opportunities, including upcoming tools like Google Veo 3.(56:40) – Speeding Up Workflow Creation with Perplexity and Claude The host and Jonathan discuss using AI (Perplexity, Claude 4) to generate n8n workflow JSON, streamlining the automation development process.Key PointsExpertise in Marketing is Essential for Automation: To automate marketing workflows effectively, you need a deep understanding of marketing processes themselves. Only then can you define, script, and automate successful campaigns[1].Automating Audience Research Drives Results: Bulk scraping and analyzing platforms like Reddit and Twitter allow marketers to extract pain points, trigger events, and customer language at scale, informing ad copy and creative direction.Creative Volume is Game-Changing: Automation tools like OpenAI's Image Gen API enable the generation of hundreds of ad variations, feeding algorithms for higher performance and lower costs.Custom Front-Ends Improve Workflow Accessibility: Building user-friendly interfaces (using tools like Lovable or Bolt) for complex n8n automations makes them accessible to non-technical team members and clients.AI Accelerates Workflow Development: Using AI tools like Perplexity and Claude to generate n8n workflow JSON reduces the time and technical skill required to build sophisticated automations.Human-in-the-Loop Remains Critical: While automation handles the heavy lifting, human oversight is still needed for nuanced analysis, curation, and final ad selection.Notable QuotesJonathan: “You have to be an expert at that thing to be able to go and actually build out these automations. But when you do that, you can automate 80% of the work that you previously were doing.”Jonathan: “I literally just tell Claude what I want to build, and then it maps it out for me. And then you kind of have a canvas that is like 60, 70, 80% there depending on the complexity.”Cody: “Your customers are your best advertisers, so taking their exact wording and phrases is for sure going to be an effective marketing strategy a lot of the time.”Actionable Takeaways for Founders, Marketers, and PodcastersStart with a Core Marketing Process: Identify a repeatable marketing workflow you fully understand before attempting to automate it.Invest in Audience Research Automation: Use tools to scrape and analyze discussions on Reddit, Twitter, and other platforms to extract customer pain points and language for your messaging[2].Bulk Generate and Test Creatives: Leverage AI to produce hundreds of ad variations, enabling rapid testing and optimization of creative assets.Automate Performance Analysis: Implement workflows to automatically pull and analyze campaign performance data, allowing you to focus on strategy and execution[8].Simplify Tool Accessibility: Build custom UIs for your automation tools to make them accessible for your entire team, not just engineers.Accelerate Workflow Development: Use AI-powered tools like Perplexity and Claude to generate automation scripts and reduce development time.Brought to you byTalentFiber – Hire top offshore engineers with US experience at half the cost of US hires. - talentfiber.comWhere to the find Guest: https://x.com/vibemarketer_ https://linktr.ee/vibemarketerResources Mentionedhttps://www.youtube.com/@nateherkhttps://www.youtube.com/@Mark_Kashefhttps://www.youtube.com/@AI-GPTWorkshop/videosRapidAPI – Access a wide range of third-party APIs for quick integrations. - rapidapi.comApify – Scrape websites and extract data at scale. - apify.comTwitterAPI.io – Free and affordable Twitter data scraping tool. - twitterapi.io

Many announcements and interesting releases came out this past month, so we got a lot to talk about in this episode! Relevant links: What's New in SQL Server 2025 - SQL Server | Microsoft Learn SQL Server 2025 - AI ready enterprise database from ground to cloud | Microsoft Community Hub Announcing Public Preview of DiskANN in SQL Server 2025 | Microsoft Community Hub SQL Server 2025: introducing optimized Halloween protection | Microsoft Community Hub SQL Server 2025: introducing tempdb space resource governance | Microsoft Community Hub Unlocking the Power of Regex in SQL Server - Azure SQL Devs' Corner Announcing the General Availability (GA) of JSON data type and JSON aggregates | Microsoft Community Hub Announcing the Public Preview of JSON index in SQL Server 2025 | Microsoft Community Hub ZSTD compression in SQL Server 2025 | Microsoft Community Hub MSSQL Extension for VS Code: GitHub Copilot Preview + UI GA MSSQL Extension for VS Code: Introducing Schema Compare (Preview) - Azure SQL Devs' Corner SQL Server Management Studio (SSMS) 21 is now generally available (GA) | Microsoft Community Hub Copilot in SSMS preview Recently released: Updates to the SqlPackage and the DacFx ecosystem | Microsoft Community Hub Visual Studio 2022 Release Notes | Microsoft Learn Free SQL Managed Instance offer is now generally available Avoid T-SQL anti-patterns with the free T-SQL analysis tool - Azure SQL Devs' Corner

Streamline your entire data workflow, from real-time change capture to querying across cloud and on-prem databases, without complex migrations or code changes using SQL Server 2025. This adds deep AI integration with built-in vector search and DiskANN optimizations, plus native support for large object JSON and new Change Event Streaming for live data updates. Join and analyze data faster with the Lakehouse shortcuts in Microsoft Fabric that unify multiple databases—across different SQL Server versions, clouds, and on-prem—into a single, logical schema without moving data. Build intelligent apps, automate workflows, and unlock rich insights with Copilot and the unified Microsoft data platform, including seamless Microsoft Fabric integration, all while leveraging your existing SQL skills and infrastructure. Bob Ward, lead SQL engineer, joins Jeremy Chapman to share how the latest SQL Server 2025 innovations simplify building complex, high-performance workloads with less effort. ► QUICK LINKS: 00:00 - Updates to SQL Server 2025 00:58 - Search and AI 03:55 - Native JSON Support 06:41 - Real-Time Change Event Streaming 08:40 - Optimized Locking for Better Concurrency 10:33 - Join SQL Server data with Fabric 13:53 - Wrap up ► Link References Start using SQL Server 2025 at https://aka.ms/GetSQLServer2025 ► Unfamiliar with Microsoft Mechanics? As Microsoft's official video series for IT, you can watch and share valuable content and demos of current and upcoming tech from the people who build it at Microsoft. • Subscribe to our YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/MicrosoftMechanicsSeries • Talk with other IT Pros, join us on the Microsoft Tech Community: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/microsoft-mechanics-blog/bg-p/MicrosoftMechanicsBlog • Watch or listen from anywhere, subscribe to our podcast: https://microsoftmechanics.libsyn.com/podcast ► Keep getting this insider knowledge, join us on social: • Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MSFTMechanics • Share knowledge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/microsoft-mechanics/ • Enjoy us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/msftmechanics/ • Loosen up with us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@msftmechanics  

In this episode, we dive deep into ScubaGear, an open-source tool developed by the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) as part of the Secure Cloud Business Applications (SCuBA) project. Designed to assess Microsoft 365 (M365) tenant configurations, ScubaGear helps organizations align with CISA's Secure Configuration Baselines (SCBs) to prevent costly misconfigurations. From setup to real-world applications, we unpack how ScubaGear strengthens M365 security and share practical tips for IT admins and security teams. What You'll Learn: Why ScubaGear Matters: Learn how ScubaGear addresses the growing threat of cloud misconfigurations, which accounted for 30% of cloud attacks in early 2024. We discuss its origins in CISA's SCuBA project, and its value for US federal agencies, private organizations, and critical infrastructure. How ScubaGear Works: A technical breakdown of ScubaGear's PowerShell-based workflow, using Microsoft Graph APIs and Open Policy Agent (OPA) to compare tenant settings against SCBs. We cover setup requirements. Common Misconfigurations: Examples like disabled MFA or weak DLP policies, and how ScubaGear's HTML, JSON, and CSV reports provide actionable remediation steps. Best Practices: Tips for integrating ScubaGear into security workflows, including regular scans, policy customization, and combining with tools like Microsoft Secure Score. Real-World Insights: Sam shares experiences from consulting. What did you think of this episode? Give us some feedback via our contact form, Or leave us a voice message in the bottom right corner of our site.Read transcript

Show DescriptionHow it all comes back to the why column, dark patterns, privacy and tracking, getting emails forever from one purchase, how to be bold with communication while still being respectful, HTMHell, CSS mistakes, are we anti-JSON, and the state of FitVid in 2025. Listen on Website →Links Markup from hell - HTMHell Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS [CSS Working Group Wiki] JSON Editing Douglas Crockford on JSON Fluid Video Plugin Sponsors

Midjourney Fast Hours, Episode 40 After a short hiatus (blame conferences and caffeine dependency), the Rory Flynn and Drew Brucker break down Google's shiny new Flow suite — with its Veo 3 video model, sound + dialogue generation, and confusing-as-hell product naming. They talk strategy, cost, coherence, and why it still feels like Midjourney has that “magic dust” no one else can replicate.Along the way: Runway love, layering hacks, JSON secrets, interior design with arrows, and 3D dogs with job titles. It's fun. It's weird. It's chaotic. But you'll probably walk away with 3 ideas you want to try right away.Also, someone paid $125 just to tell you whether it's worth it. (You're welcome.)---Midjourney Fast Hour0:00 – When did this madness begin?2:19 – AI video is finally getting spicy3:29 – Google's Flow Suite: Veo 3, sound, and coherence5:02 – Google's confusing product soup: Flow, Gemini, Imagen, Whisk10:45 – Pricing pain: Is Veo 3 worth the $125?13:09 – Veo 2 vs Veo 3: Best value tips and tradeoffs15:08 – Prompt accuracy and physics: Is Google really listening?17:53 – Why less prompt effort = better results now19:40 – Veo 3 vs Kling vs Midjourney: Prompting philosophies20:52 – Scene builder: Longer takes and smart extension workflows22:34 – The catch: extending drops quality and loses sound24:17 – New image-to-video support + third-party images25:41 – Ingredients-based generation and persistent characters27:10 – Frame extraction: finally, a feature we all needed28:08 – Timeline editing, upscaling, and staying inside the tool29:48 – Sora vs Veo 3 vs Runway: usability and consistency31:43 – Canva, Figma, Framer: Tools are becoming monsters35:33 – Figma's new AI website builder is wild36:40 – Prompting sneaker ads and JSON-based design37:09 – Why training teams on AI is almost impossible38:07 – Hedra who? Veo 3 makes fast pivots a must39:55 – Midjourney's next move: what video could look like41:11 – Runway's underrated features and clever reference hacks44:26 – Scene sketching and layout prompting: mind blown47:25 – Interior design from mood board to layout to render49:45 – Lighting direction via floorplans = next-gen hack52:53 – Try-on tech and Chrome extensions54:22 – Style consistency with JSON + ChatGPT58:23 – Mass-generating stylized icons and dogs with jobs1:02:36 – Midjourney updates: V7.1, personalization, and video1:05:01 – What Midjourney must get right with video1:07:18 – The one-shot window to impress1:09:23 – Bring back the Midjourney magic1:11:14 – Wrap-up: chaotic times, coherent thoughts, caffeinated takes

Jason Martin is an AI Security Researcher at HiddenLayer. This episode explores “policy puppetry,” a universal attack technique bypassing safety features in all major language models using structured formats like XML or JSON.Subscribe to the Gradient Flow Newsletter

In this potluck episode of Syntax, Wes and CJ answer your questions about OpenAI's $3B Windsurf acquisition, the evolving role of UI in an AI-driven world, why good design still matters, React vs. Svelte, and more! Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! Devs Night Out 02:35 OpenAI acquires Windsurf for $3B Windsurf Ep 870: Windsurf forked VS Code to compete with Cursor. Talking the future of AI + Coding 05:20 What is the future of UI now that AI is such a heavy hitter? 08:45 Handling spam submissions on websites Cloudflare Turnstile 14:18 Duplicating HTML for desktop and mobile websites? 17:03 Is it okay to use a JSON file for simple website data? 19:04 How to handle anonymous and duplicate users Better-Auth 21:55 Working with TypeScript Object.keys() and “any” vs “@ts-ignore” 25:51 Brought to you by Sentry.io 26:38 What is the difference between React and Svelte? 30:24 How should you name your readme file? 31:55 How do you find time to refactor code? 35:20 Best practices for testing responsiveness Polypane 39:19 Avoiding layout shift with progressive enhancement 46:56 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs Sick Picks CJ: Portable Chainsaw Wes: White Lotus Shameless Plugs CJ: Nuxt Wes: Full Stack App Build | Travel Log w/ Nuxt, Vue, Better Auth, Drizzle, Tailwind, DaisyUI, MapLibre Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Gros épisode qui couvre un large spectre de sujets : Java, Scala, Micronaut, NodeJS, l'IA et la compétence des développeurs, le sampling dans les LLMs, les DTO, le vibe coding, les changements chez Broadcom et Red Hat ainsi que plusieurs nouvelles sur les licences open source. Enregistré le 7 mai 2025 Téléchargement de l'épisode LesCastCodeurs-Episode-325.mp3 ou en vidéo sur YouTube. News Langages A l'occasion de JavaOne et du lancement de Java 24, Oracle lance un nouveau site avec des ressources vidéo pour apprendre le langage https://learn.java/ site plutôt à destination des débutants et des enseignants couvre la syntaxe aussi, y compris les ajouts plus récents comme les records ou le pattern matching c'est pas le site le plus trendy du monde. Martin Odersky partage un long article sur l'état de l'écosystème Scala et les évolutions du language https://www.scala-lang.org/blog/2025/03/24/evolving-scala.html Stabilité et besoin d'évolution : Scala maintient sa position (~14ème mondial) avec des bases techniques solides, mais doit évoluer face à la concurrence pour rester pertinent. Axes prioritaires : L'évolution se concentre sur l'amélioration du duo sécurité/convivialité, le polissage du langage (suppression des “rugosités”) et la simplification pour les débutants. Innovation continue : Geler les fonctionnalités est exclu ; l'innovation est clé pour la valeur de Scala. Le langage doit rester généraliste et ne pas se lier à un framework spécifique. Défis et progrès : L'outillage (IDE, outils de build comme sbt, scala-cli, Mill) et la facilité d'apprentissage de l'écosystème sont des points d'attention, avec des améliorations en cours (partenariat pédagogique, plateformes simples). Des strings encore plus rapides ! https://inside.java/2025/05/01/strings-just-got-faster/ Dans JDK 25, la performance de la fonction String::hashCode a été améliorée pour être principalement constant foldable. Cela signifie que si les chaînes de caractères sont utilisées comme clés dans une Map statique et immuable, des gains de performance significatifs sont probables. L'amélioration repose sur l'annotation interne @Stable appliquée au champ privé String.hash. Cette annotation permet à la machine virtuelle de lire la valeur du hash une seule fois et de la considérer comme constante si elle n'est pas la valeur par défaut (zéro). Par conséquent, l'opération String::hashCode peut être remplacée par la valeur de hash connue, optimisant ainsi les lookups dans les Map immuables. Un cas limite est celui où le code de hachage de la chaîne est zéro, auquel cas l'optimisation ne fonctionne pas (par exemple, pour la chaîne vide “”). Bien que l'annotation @Stable soit interne au JDK, un nouveau JEP (JEP 502: Stable Values (Preview)) est en cours de développement pour permettre aux utilisateurs de bénéficier indirectement de fonctionnalités similaires. AtomicHash, une implémentation Java d'une HashMap qui est thread-safe, atomique et non-bloquante https://github.com/arxila/atomichash implémenté sous forme de version immutable de Concurrent Hash Trie Librairies Sortie de Micronaut 4.8.0 https://micronaut.io/2025/04/01/micronaut-framework-4-8-0-released/ Mise à jour de la BOM (Bill of Materials) : La version 4.8.0 met à jour la BOM de la plateforme Micronaut. Améliorations de Micronaut Core : Intégration de Micronaut SourceGen pour la génération interne de métadonnées et d'expressions bytecode. Nombreuses améliorations dans Micronaut SourceGen. Ajout du traçage de l'injection de dépendances pour faciliter le débogage au démarrage et à la création des beans. Nouveau membre definitionType dans l'annotation @Client pour faciliter le partage d'interfaces entre client et serveur. Support de la fusion dans les Bean Mappers via l'annotation @Mapping. Nouvelle liveness probe détectant les threads bloqués (deadlocked) via ThreadMXBean. Intégration Kubernetes améliorée : Mise à jour du client Java Kubernetes vers la version 22.0.1. Ajout du module Micronaut Kubernetes Client OpenAPI, offrant une alternative au client officiel avec moins de dépendances, une configuration unifiée, le support des filtres et la compatibilité Native Image. Introduction d'un nouveau runtime serveur basé sur le serveur HTTP intégré de Java, permettant de créer des applications sans dépendances serveur externes. Ajout dans Micronaut Micrometer d'un module pour instrumenter les sources de données (traces et métriques). Ajout de la condition condition dans l'annotation @MetricOptions pour contrôler l'activation des métriques via une expression. Support des Consul watches dans Micronaut Discovery Client pour détecter les changements de configuration distribuée. Possibilité de générer du code source à partir d'un schéma JSON via les plugins de build (Gradle et Maven). Web Node v24.0.0 passe en version Current: https://nodejs.org/en/blog/release/v24.0.0 Mise à jour du moteur V8 vers la version 13.6 : intégration de nouvelles fonctionnalités JavaScript telles que Float16Array, la gestion explicite des ressources (using), RegExp.escape, WebAssembly Memory64 et Error.isError. npm 11 inclus : améliorations en termes de performance, de sécurité et de compatibilité avec les packages JavaScript modernes. Changement de compilateur pour Windows : abandon de MSVC au profit de ClangCL pour la compilation de Node.js sur Windows. AsyncLocalStorage utilise désormais AsyncContextFrame par défaut : offrant une gestion plus efficace du contexte asynchrone. URLPattern disponible globalement : plus besoin d'importer explicitement cette API pour effectuer des correspondances d'URL. Améliorations du modèle de permissions : le flag expérimental --experimental-permission devient --permission, signalant une stabilité accrue de cette fonctionnalité. Améliorations du test runner : les sous-tests sont désormais attendus automatiquement, simplifiant l'écriture des tests et réduisant les erreurs liées aux promesses non gérées. Intégration d'Undici 7 : amélioration des capacités du client HTTP avec de meilleures performances et un support étendu des fonctionnalités HTTP modernes. Dépréciations et suppressions : Dépréciation de url.parse() au profit de l'API WHATWG URL. Suppression de tls.createSecurePair. Dépréciation de SlowBuffer. Dépréciation de l'instanciation de REPL sans new. Dépréciation de l'utilisation des classes Zlib sans new. Dépréciation du passage de args à spawn et execFile dans child_process. Node.js 24 est actuellement la version “Current” et deviendra une version LTS en octobre 2025. Il est recommandé de tester cette version pour évaluer son impact sur vos applications. Data et Intelligence Artificielle Apprendre à coder reste crucial et l'IA est là pour venir en aide : https://kyrylo.org/software/2025/03/27/learn-to-code-ignore-ai-then-use-ai-to-code-even-better.html Apprendre à coder reste essentiel malgré l'IA. L'IA peut assister la programmation. Une solide base est cruciale pour comprendre et contrôler le code. Cela permet d'éviter la dépendance à l'IA. Cela réduit le risque de remplacement par des outils d'IA accessibles à tous. L'IA est un outil, pas un substitut à la maîtrise des fondamentaux. Super article de Anthropic qui essaie de comprendre comment fonctionne la “pensée” des LLMs https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language-model Effet boîte noire : Stratégies internes des IA (Claude) opaques aux développeurs et utilisateurs. Objectif : Comprendre le “raisonnement” interne pour vérifier capacités et intentions. Méthode : Inspiration neurosciences, développement d'un “microscope IA” (regarder quels circuits neuronaux s'activent). Technique : Identification de concepts (“features”) et de “circuits” internes. Multilinguisme : Indice d'un “langage de pensée” conceptuel commun à toutes les langues avant de traduire dans une langue particulière. Planification : Capacité à anticiper (ex: rimes en poésie), pas seulement de la génération mot par mot (token par token). Raisonnement non fidèle : Peut fabriquer des arguments plausibles (“bullshitting”) pour une conclusion donnée. Logique multi-étapes : Combine des faits distincts, ne se contente pas de mémoriser. Hallucinations : Refus par défaut ; réponse si “connaissance” active, sinon risque d'hallucination si erreur. “Jailbreaks” : Tension entre cohérence grammaticale (pousse à continuer) et sécurité (devrait refuser). Bilan : Méthodes limitées mais prometteuses pour la transparence et la fiabilité de l'IA. Le “S” dans MCP veut dire Securité (ou pas !) https://elenacross7.medium.com/%EF%B8%8F-the-s-in-mcp-stands-for-security-91407b33ed6b La spécification MCP pour permettre aux LLMs d'avoir accès à divers outils et fonctions a peut-être été adoptée un peu rapidement, alors qu'elle n'était pas encore prête niveau sécurité L'article liste 4 types d'attaques possibles : vulnérabilité d'injection de commandes attaque d'empoisonnement d'outils redéfinition silencieuse de l'outil le shadowing d'outils inter-serveurs Pour l'instant, MCP n'est pas sécurisé : Pas de standard d'authentification Pas de chiffrement de contexte Pas de vérification d'intégrité des outils Basé sur l'article de InvariantLabs https://invariantlabs.ai/blog/mcp-security-notification-tool-poisoning-attacks Sortie Infinispan 15.2 - pre rolling upgrades 16.0 https://infinispan.org/blog/2025/03/27/infinispan-15-2 Support de Redis JSON + scripts Lua Métriques JVM désactivables Nouvelle console (PatternFly 6) Docs améliorées (métriques + logs) JDK 17 min, support JDK 24 Fin du serveur natif (performances) Guillaume montre comment développer un serveur MCP HTTP Server Sent Events avec l'implémentation de référence Java et LangChain4j https://glaforge.dev/posts/2025/04/04/mcp-client-and-server-with-java-mcp-sdk-and-langchain4j/ Développé en Java, avec l'implémentation de référence qui est aussi à la base de l'implémentation dans Spring Boot (mais indépendant de Spring) Le serveur MCP est exposé sous forme de servlet dans Jetty Le client MCP lui, est développé avec le module MCP de LangChain4j c'est semi independant de Spring dans le sens où c'est dépendant de Reactor et de ses interface. il y a une conversation sur le github d'anthropic pour trouver une solution, mais cela ne parait pas simple. Les fallacies derrière la citation “AI won't replace you, but humans using AI will” https://platforms.substack.com/cp/161356485 La fallacie de l'automatisation vs. l'augmentation : Elle se concentre sur l'amélioration des tâches existantes avec l'IA au lieu de considérer le changement de la valeur de ces tâches dans un nouveau système. La fallacie des gains de productivité : L'augmentation de la productivité ne se traduit pas toujours par plus de valeur pour les travailleurs, car la valeur créée peut être capturée ailleurs dans le système. La fallacie des emplois statiques : Les emplois sont des constructions organisationnelles qui peuvent être redéfinies par l'IA, rendant les rôles traditionnels obsolètes. La fallacie de la compétition “moi vs. quelqu'un utilisant l'IA” : La concurrence évolue lorsque l'IA modifie les contraintes fondamentales d'un secteur, rendant les compétences existantes moins pertinentes. La fallacie de la continuité du flux de travail : L'IA peut entraîner une réimagination complète des flux de travail, éliminant le besoin de certaines compétences. La fallacie des outils neutres : Les outils d'IA ne sont pas neutres et peuvent redistribuer le pouvoir organisationnel en changeant la façon dont les décisions sont prises et exécutées. La fallacie du salaire stable : Le maintien d'un emploi ne garantit pas un salaire stable, car la valeur du travail peut diminuer avec l'augmentation des capacités de l'IA. La fallacie de l'entreprise stable : L'intégration de l'IA nécessite une restructuration de l'entreprise et ne se fait pas dans un vide organisationnel. Comprendre le “sampling” dans les LLMs https://rentry.co/samplers Explique pourquoi les LLMs utilisent des tokens Les différentes méthodes de “sampling” : càd de choix de tokens Les hyperparamètres comme la température, top-p, et leur influence réciproque Les algorithmes de tokenisation comme Byte Pair Encoding et SentencePiece. Un de moins … OpenAI va racheter Windsurf pour 3 milliards de dollars. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-05-06/openai-reaches-agreement-to-buy-startup-windsurf-for-3-billion l'accord n'est pas encore finalisé Windsurf était valorisé à 1,25 milliards l'an dernier et OpenAI a levé 40 milliards dernièrement portant sa valeur à 300 milliards Le but pour OpenAI est de rentrer dans le monde des assistants de code pour lesquels ils sont aujourd'hui absent Docker desktop se met à l'IA… ? Une nouvelle fonctionnalité dans docker desktop 4.4 sur macos: Docker Model Runner https://dev.to/docker/run-genai-models-locally-with-docker-model-runner-5elb Permet de faire tourner des modèles nativement en local ( https://docs.docker.com/model-runner/ ) mais aussi des serveurs MCP ( https://docs.docker.com/ai/mcp-catalog-and-toolkit/ ) Outillage Jetbrains défend la suppression des commentaires négatifs sur son assistant IA https://devclass.com/2025/04/30/jetbrains-defends-removal-of-negative-reviews-for-unpopular-ai-assistant/?td=rt-3a L'IA Assistant de JetBrains, lancée en juillet 2023, a été téléchargée plus de 22 millions de fois mais n'est notée que 2,3 sur 5. Des utilisateurs ont remarqué que certaines critiques négatives étaient supprimées, ce qui a provoqué une réaction négative sur les réseaux sociaux. Un employé de JetBrains a expliqué que les critiques ont été supprimées soit parce qu'elles mentionnaient des problèmes déjà résolus, soit parce qu'elles violaient leur politique concernant les “grossièretés, etc.” L'entreprise a reconnu qu'elle aurait pu mieux gérer la situation, un représentant déclarant : “Supprimer plusieurs critiques d'un coup sans préavis semblait suspect. Nous aurions dû au moins publier un avis et fournir plus de détails aux auteurs.” Parmi les problèmes de l'IA Assistant signalés par les utilisateurs figurent : un support limité pour les fournisseurs de modèles tiers, une latence notable, des ralentissements fréquents, des fonctionnalités principales verrouillées aux services cloud de JetBrains, une expérience utilisateur incohérente et une documentation insuffisante. Une plainte courante est que l'IA Assistant s'installe sans permission. Un utilisateur sur Reddit l'a qualifié de “plugin agaçant qui s'auto-répare/se réinstalle comme un phénix”. JetBrains a récemment introduit un niveau gratuit et un nouvel agent IA appelé Junie, destiné à fonctionner parallèlement à l'IA Assistant, probablement en réponse à la concurrence entre fournisseurs. Mais il est plus char a faire tourner. La société s'est engagée à explorer de nouvelles approches pour traiter les mises à jour majeures différemment et envisage d'implémenter des critiques par version ou de marquer les critiques comme “Résolues” avec des liens vers les problèmes correspondants au lieu de les supprimer. Contrairement à des concurrents comme Microsoft, AWS ou Google, JetBrains commercialise uniquement des outils et services de développement et ne dispose pas d'une activité cloud distincte sur laquelle s'appuyer. Vos images de README et fichiers Markdown compatibles pour le dark mode de GitHub: https://github.blog/developer-skills/github/how-to-make-your-images-in-markdown-on-github-adjust-for-dark-mode-and-light-mode/ Seulement quelques lignes de pure HTML pour le faire Architecture Alors, les DTOs, c'est bien ou c'est pas bien ? https://codeopinion.com/dtos-mapping-the-good-the-bad-and-the-excessive/ Utilité des DTOs : Les DTOs servent à transférer des données entre les différentes couches d'une application, en mappant souvent les données entre différentes représentations (par exemple, entre la base de données et l'interface utilisateur). Surutilisation fréquente : L'article souligne que les DTOs sont souvent utilisés de manière excessive, notamment pour créer des API HTTP qui ne font que refléter les entités de la base de données, manquant ainsi l'opportunité de composer des données plus riches. Vraie valeur : La valeur réelle des DTOs réside dans la gestion du couplage entre les couches et la composition de données provenant de sources multiples en formes optimisées pour des cas d'utilisation spécifiques. Découplage : Il est suggéré d'utiliser les DTOs pour découpler les modèles de données internes des contrats externes (comme les API), ce qui permet une évolution et une gestion des versions indépendantes. Exemple avec CQRS : Dans le cadre de CQRS (Command Query Responsibility Segregation), les réponses aux requêtes (queries) agissent comme des DTOs spécifiquement adaptés aux besoins de l'interface utilisateur, pouvant inclure des données de diverses sources. Protection des données internes : Les DTOs aident à distinguer et protéger les modèles de données internes (privés) des changements externes (publics). Éviter l'excès : L'auteur met en garde contre les couches de mapping excessives (mapper un DTO vers un autre DTO) qui n'apportent pas de valeur ajoutée. Création ciblée : Il est conseillé de ne créer des DTOs que lorsqu'ils résolvent des problèmes concrets, tels que la gestion du couplage ou la facilitation de la composition de données. Méthodologies Même Guillaume se met au “vibe coding” https://glaforge.dev/posts/2025/05/02/vibe-coding-an-mcp-server-with-micronaut-and-gemini/ Selon Andrey Karpathy, c'est le fait de POC-er un proto, une appli jetable du weekend https://x.com/karpathy/status/1886192184808149383 Mais Simon Willison s'insurge que certains confondent coder avec l'assistance de l'IA avec le vibe coding https://simonwillison.net/2025/May/1/not-vibe-coding/ Guillaume c'est ici amusé à développer un serveur MCP avec Micronaut, en utilisant Gemini, l'IA de Google. Contrairement à Quarkus ou Spring Boot, Micronaut n'a pas encore de module ou de support spécifique pour faciliter la création de serveur MCP Sécurité Une faille de sécurité 10/10 sur Tomcat https://www.it-connect.fr/apache-tomcat-cette-faille-activement-exploitee-seulement-30-heures-apres-sa-divulgation-patchez/ Une faille de sécurité critique (CVE-2025-24813) affecte Apache Tomcat, permettant l'exécution de code à distance Cette vulnérabilité est activement exploitée seulement 30 heures après sa divulgation du 10 mars 2025 L'attaque ne nécessite aucune authentification et est particulièrement simple à exécuter Elle utilise une requête PUT avec une charge utile Java sérialisée encodée en base64, suivie d'une requête GET L'encodage en base64 permet de contourner la plupart des filtres de sécurité Les serveurs vulnérables utilisent un stockage de session basé sur des fichiers (configuration répandue) Les versions affectées sont : 11.0.0-M1 à 11.0.2, 10.1.0-M1 à 10.1.34, et 9.0.0.M1 à 9.0.98 Les mises à jour recommandées sont : 11.0.3+, 10.1.35+ et 9.0.99+ Les experts prévoient des attaques plus sophistiquées dans les prochaines phases d'exploitation (upload de config ou jsp) Sécurisation d'un serveur ssh https://ittavern.com/ssh-server-hardening/ un article qui liste les configurations clés pour sécuriser un serveur SSH par exemple, enlever password authentigfication, changer de port, desactiver le login root, forcer le protocol ssh 2, certains que je ne connaissais pas comme MaxStartups qui limite le nombre de connections non authentifiées concurrentes Port knocking est une technique utile mais demande une approche cliente consciente du protocol Oracle admet que les identités IAM de ses clients ont leaké https://www.theregister.com/2025/04/08/oracle_cloud_compromised/ Oracle a confirmé à certains clients que son cloud public a été compromis, alors que l'entreprise avait précédemment nié toute intrusion. Un pirate informatique a revendiqué avoir piraté deux serveurs d'authentification d'Oracle et volé environ six millions d'enregistrements, incluant des clés de sécurité privées, des identifiants chiffrés et des entrées LDAP. La faille exploitée serait la vulnérabilité CVE-2021-35587 dans Oracle Access Manager, qu'Oracle n'avait pas corrigée sur ses propres systèmes. Le pirate a créé un fichier texte début mars sur login.us2.oraclecloud.com contenant son adresse email pour prouver son accès. Selon Oracle, un ancien serveur contenant des données vieilles de huit ans aurait été compromis, mais un client affirme que des données de connexion aussi récentes que 2024 ont été dérobées. Oracle fait face à un procès au Texas concernant cette violation de données. Cette intrusion est distincte d'une autre attaque contre Oracle Health, sur laquelle l'entreprise refuse de commenter. Oracle pourrait faire face à des sanctions sous le RGPD européen qui exige la notification des parties affectées dans les 72 heures suivant la découverte d'une fuite de données. Le comportement d'Oracle consistant à nier puis à admettre discrètement l'intrusion est inhabituel en 2025 et pourrait mener à d'autres actions en justice collectives. Une GitHub action très populaire compromise https://www.stepsecurity.io/blog/harden-runner-detection-tj-actions-changed-files-action-is-compromised Compromission de l'action tj-actions/changed-files : En mars 2025, une action GitHub très utilisée (tj-actions/changed-files) a été compromise. Des versions modifiées de l'action ont exposé des secrets CI/CD dans les logs de build. Méthode d'attaque : Un PAT compromis a permis de rediriger plusieurs tags de version vers un commit contenant du code malveillant. Détails du code malveillant : Le code injecté exécutait une fonction Node.js encodée en base64, qui téléchargeait un script Python. Ce script parcourait la mémoire du runner GitHub à la recherche de secrets (tokens, clés…) et les exposait dans les logs. Dans certains cas, les données étaient aussi envoyées via une requête réseau. Période d'exposition : Les versions compromises étaient actives entre le 12 et le 15 mars 2025. Tout dépôt, particulièrement ceux publiques, ayant utilisé l'action pendant cette période doit être considéré comme potentiellement exposé. Détection : L'activité malveillante a été repérée par l'analyse des comportements inhabituels pendant l'exécution des workflows, comme des connexions réseau inattendues. Réaction : GitHub a supprimé l'action compromise, qui a ensuite été nettoyée. Impact potentiel : Tous les secrets apparaissant dans les logs doivent être considérés comme compromis, même dans les dépôts privés, et régénérés sans délai. Loi, société et organisation Les startup the YCombinateur ont les plus fortes croissances de leur histoire https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/15/y-combinator-startups-are-fastest-growing-in-fund-history-because-of-ai.html Les entreprises en phase de démarrage à Silicon Valley connaissent une croissance significative grâce à l'intelligence artificielle. Le PDG de Y Combinator, Garry Tan, affirme que l'ensemble des startups de la dernière cohorte a connu une croissance hebdomadaire de 10% pendant neuf mois. L'IA permet aux développeurs d'automatiser des tâches répétitives et de générer du code grâce aux grands modèles de langage. Pour environ 25% des startups actuelles de YC, 95% de leur code a été écrit par l'IA. Cette révolution permet aux entreprises de se développer avec moins de personnel - certaines atteignant 10 millions de dollars de revenus avec moins de 10 employés. La mentalité de “croissance à tout prix” a été remplacée par un renouveau d'intérêt pour la rentabilité. Environ 80% des entreprises présentées lors du “demo day” étaient centrées sur l'IA, avec quelques startups en robotique et semi-conducteurs. Y Combinator investit 500 000 dollars dans les startups en échange d'une participation au capital, suivi d'un programme de trois mois. Red Hat middleware (ex-jboss) rejoint IBM https://markclittle.blogspot.com/2025/03/red-hat-middleware-moving-to-ibm.html Les activités Middleware de Red Hat (incluant JBoss, Quarkus, etc.) vont être transférées vers IBM, dans l'unité dédiée à la sécurité des données, à l'IAM et aux runtimes. Ce changement découle d'une décision stratégique de Red Hat de se concentrer davantage sur le cloud hybride et l'intelligence artificielle. Mark Little explique que ce transfert était devenu inévitable, Red Hat ayant réduit ses investissements dans le Middleware ces dernières années. L'intégration vise à renforcer l'innovation autour de Java en réunissant les efforts de Red Hat et IBM sur ce sujet. Les produits Middleware resteront open source et les clients continueront à bénéficier du support habituel sans changement. Mark Little affirme que des projets comme Quarkus continueront à être soutenus et que cette évolution est bénéfique pour la communauté Java. Un an de commonhaus https://www.commonhaus.org/activity/253.html un an, démarré sur les communautés qu'ils connaissaient bien maintenant 14 projets et put en accepter plus confiance, gouvernance legère et proteger le futur des projets automatisation de l'administratif, stabiilité sans complexité, les developpeurs au centre du processus de décision ils ont besoins de members et supporters (financiers) ils veulent accueillir des projets au delà de ceux du cercles des Java Champions Spring Cloud Data Flow devient un produit commercial et ne sera plus maintenu en open source https://spring.io/blog/2025/04/21/spring-cloud-data-flow-commercial Peut-être sous l'influence de Broadcom, Spring se met à mettre en mode propriétaire des composants du portefeuille Spring ils disent que peu de gens l'utilisaent en mode OSS et la majorité venait d'un usage dans la plateforme Tanzu Maintenir en open source le coutent du temps qu'ils son't pas sur ces projets. La CNCF protège le projet NATS, dans la fondation depuis 2018, vu que la société Synadia qui y contribue souhaitait reprendre le contrôle du projet https://www.cncf.io/blog/2025/04/24/protecting-nats-and-the-integrity-of-open-source-cncfs-commitment-to-the-community/ CNCF : Protège projets OS, gouvernance neutre. Synadia vs CNCF : Veut retirer NATS, licence non-OS (BUSL). CNCF : Accuse Synadia de “claw back” (reprise illégitime). Revendications Synadia : Domaine nats.io, orga GitHub. Marque NATS : Synadia n'a pas transféré (promesse rompue malgré aide CNCF). Contestation Synadia : Juge règles CNCF “trop vagues”. Vote interne : Mainteneurs Synadia votent sortie CNCF (sans communauté). Support CNCF : Investissement majeur ($ audits, légal), succès communautaire (>700 orgs). Avenir NATS (CNCF) : Maintien sous Apache 2.0, gouvernance ouverte. Actions CNCF : Health check, appel mainteneurs, annulation marque Synadia, rejet demandes. Mais finalement il semble y avoir un bon dénouement : https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2025/05/01/cncf-and-synadia-align-on-securing-the-future-of-the-nats-io-project/ Accord pour l'avenir de NATS.io : La Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) et Synadia ont conclu un accord pour sécuriser le futur du projet NATS.io. Transfert des marques NATS : Synadia va céder ses deux enregistrements de marque NATS à la Linux Foundation afin de renforcer la gouvernance ouverte du projet. Maintien au sein de la CNCF : L'infrastructure et les actifs du projet NATS resteront sous l'égide de la CNCF, garantissant ainsi sa stabilité à long terme et son développement en open source sous licence Apache-2.0. Reconnaissance et engagement : La Linux Foundation, par la voix de Todd Moore, reconnaît les contributions de Synadia et son soutien continu. Derek Collison, PDG de Synadia, réaffirme l'engagement de son entreprise envers NATS et la collaboration avec la Linux Foundation et la CNCF. Adoption et soutien communautaire : NATS est largement adopté et considéré comme une infrastructure critique. Il bénéficie d'un fort soutien de la communauté pour sa nature open source et l'implication continue de Synadia. Finalement, Redis revient vers une licence open source OSI, avec la AGPL https://foojay.io/today/redis-is-now-available-under-the-agplv3-open-source-license/ Redis passe à la licence open source AGPLv3 pour contrer l'exploitation par les fournisseurs cloud sans contribution. Le passage précédent à la licence SSPL avait nui à la relation avec la communauté open source. Salvatore Sanfilippo (antirez) est revenu chez Redis. Redis 8 adopte la licence AGPL, intègre les fonctionnalités de Redis Stack (JSON, Time Series, etc.) et introduit les “vector sets” (le support de calcul vectoriel développé par Salvatore). Ces changements visent à renforcer Redis en tant que plateforme appréciée des développeurs, conformément à la vision initiale de Salvatore. Conférences La liste des conférences provenant de Developers Conferences Agenda/List par Aurélie Vache et contributeurs : 6-7 mai 2025 : GOSIM AI Paris - Paris (France) 7-9 mai 2025 : Devoxx UK - London (UK) 15 mai 2025 : Cloud Toulouse - Toulouse (France) 16 mai 2025 : AFUP Day 2025 Lille - Lille (France) 16 mai 2025 : AFUP Day 2025 Lyon - Lyon (France) 16 mai 2025 : AFUP Day 2025 Poitiers - Poitiers (France) 22-23 mai 2025 : Flupa UX Days 2025 - Paris (France) 24 mai 2025 : Polycloud - Montpellier (France) 24 mai 2025 : NG Baguette Conf 2025 - Nantes (France) 3 juin 2025 : TechReady - Nantes (France) 5-6 juin 2025 : AlpesCraft - Grenoble (France) 5-6 juin 2025 : Devquest 2025 - Niort (France) 10-11 juin 2025 : Modern Workplace Conference Paris 2025 - Paris (France) 11-13 juin 2025 : Devoxx Poland - Krakow (Poland) 12 juin 2025 : Positive Design Days - Strasbourg (France) 12-13 juin 2025 : Agile Tour Toulouse - Toulouse (France) 12-13 juin 2025 : DevLille - Lille (France) 13 juin 2025 : Tech F'Est 2025 - Nancy (France) 17 juin 2025 : Mobilis In Mobile - Nantes (France) 19-21 juin 2025 : Drupal Barcamp Perpignan 2025 - Perpignan (France) 24 juin 2025 : WAX 2025 - Aix-en-Provence (France) 25-26 juin 2025 : Agi'Lille 2025 - Lille (France) 25-27 juin 2025 : BreizhCamp 2025 - Rennes (France) 26-27 juin 2025 : Sunny Tech - Montpellier (France) 1-4 juillet 2025 : Open edX Conference - 2025 - Palaiseau (France) 7-9 juillet 2025 : Riviera DEV 2025 - Sophia Antipolis (France) 5 septembre 2025 : JUG Summer Camp 2025 - La Rochelle (France) 12 septembre 2025 : Agile Pays Basque 2025 - Bidart (France) 18-19 septembre 2025 : API Platform Conference - Lille (France) & Online 23 septembre 2025 : OWASP AppSec France 2025 - Paris (France) 25-26 septembre 2025 : Paris Web 2025 - Paris (France) 2-3 octobre 2025 : Volcamp - Clermont-Ferrand (France) 3 octobre 2025 : DevFest Perros-Guirec 2025 - Perros-Guirec (France) 6-10 octobre 2025 : Devoxx Belgium - Antwerp (Belgium) 7 octobre 2025 : BSides Mulhouse - Mulhouse (France) 9-10 octobre 2025 : Forum PHP 2025 - Marne-la-Vallée (France) 9-10 octobre 2025 : EuroRust 2025 - Paris (France) 16 octobre 2025 : PlatformCon25 Live Day Paris - Paris (France) 16-17 octobre 2025 : DevFest Nantes - Nantes (France) 30-31 octobre 2025 : Agile Tour Bordeaux 2025 - Bordeaux (France) 30-31 octobre 2025 : Agile Tour Nantais 2025 - Nantes (France) 30 octobre 2025-2 novembre 2025 : PyConFR 2025 - Lyon (France) 4-7 novembre 2025 : NewCrafts 2025 - Paris (France) 6 novembre 2025 : dotAI 2025 - Paris (France) 7 novembre 2025 : BDX I/O - Bordeaux (France) 12-14 novembre 2025 : Devoxx Morocco - Marrakech (Morocco) 13 novembre 2025 : DevFest Toulouse - Toulouse (France) 15-16 novembre 2025 : Capitole du Libre - Toulouse (France) 20 novembre 2025 : OVHcloud Summit - Paris (France) 21 novembre 2025 : DevFest Paris 2025 - Paris (France) 27 novembre 2025 : Devfest Strasbourg 2025 - Strasbourg (France) 28 novembre 2025 : DevFest Lyon - Lyon (France) 5 décembre 2025 : DevFest Dijon 2025 - Dijon (France) 10-11 décembre 2025 : Devops REX - Paris (France) 10-11 décembre 2025 : Open Source Experience - Paris (France) 28-31 janvier 2026 : SnowCamp 2026 - Grenoble (France) 2-6 février 2026 : Web Days Convention - Aix-en-Provence (France) 23-25 avril 2026 : Devoxx Greece - Athens (Greece) 17 juin 2026 : Devoxx Poland - Krakow (Poland) Nous contacter Pour réagir à cet épisode, venez discuter sur le groupe Google https://groups.google.com/group/lescastcodeurs Contactez-nous via X/twitter https://twitter.com/lescastcodeurs ou Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/lescastcodeurs.com Faire un crowdcast ou une crowdquestion Soutenez Les Cast Codeurs sur Patreon https://www.patreon.com/LesCastCodeurs Tous les épisodes et toutes les infos sur https://lescastcodeurs.com/

Daisy Hollman joins Phil and Anastasia. Daisy talks to us about the current state of the art in using LLM-based AI agents to help with software development, as well as where that is going in the future, and what impacts it is having (good and bad). Show Notes News Clang 20 released Boost 1.88 released JSON for Modern C++ 3.12.0 Conferences: Pure Virtual C++ 2025 Full schedule C++ Now 2025 C++ on Sea 2025 - speakers C++ under the Sea 2025 Links "Not your Grandparent's C++" - Phil's talk "Robots Are After Your Job: Exploring Generative AI for C++" - Andrei Alexandrescu's closing CppCon 2023 keynote  

Cloud Connections 2025 | St. Petersburg, FL “If you think you're moving fast, you're probably not moving fast enough.” That was the core message from Mike Tessler, managing partner at True North Advisory, in his opening keynote at the Cloud Connections 2025 conference. In a session titled “Don't Stop Believin': AI's Journey in Enterprise Transformation,” Tessler shifted the AI conversation from capabilities to strategy. Instead of showcasing the latest contact center tricks or flashy generative features, he dove deep into how enterprises should approach AI adoption—with urgency, realism, and a clear plan. Tessler framed the moment as a once-in-a-generation inflection point. Just 866 days since ChatGPT launched, enterprises have been flooded with AI solutions, but many are still struggling with actual implementation. “The field is exploding, but there's friction,” said Tessler, noting that while consumers quickly embraced AI tools, corporate environments remain slow to adapt. Three Big Takeaways from Tessler's Talk AI Is Only as Good as Your Data Enterprises must start by understanding their own data. “Almost every company says, ‘We don't have data,'” Tessler observed, “but they do. They just don't know how to surface and structure it.” He suggested simple tools like JSON to codify marketing guidelines or operational principles and inject consistency into AI-generated content. Enterprise Strategy Starts with Personal Productivity Tessler outlined a three-layer AI roadmap used at Boldyn Networks, where he serves on the board: Layer 1: Personal Productivity (e.g., Copilot, Gemini) Layer 2: Team & Process-Level AI (e.g., AI in network design/deployment) Layer 3: New Services & Capabilities enabled by proprietary data This layered model helps unify enterprise goals and align AI projects with tangible outcomes. Start Small, Move Fast, Stay Agile Forget long IT rollouts, said Tessler. AI adoption demands an agile, iterative approach. Small proofs of concept are key. “Something that wasn't possible last week might be today,” he warned. “So get started now.” Real-World Use Cases: Where AI Is Delivering Value Today Tessler concluded with four examples of AI being used to solve real business problems: Spinoco – Helps micro-businesses manage customer interactions by turning every message, call, or DM into actionable tasks, no CRM needed. Kiwi Data – Uses AI to extract key terms and obligations from decades of contracts and NDAs, helping enterprises get a grip on what they've signed. Tato – Leverages the “exhaust” of UCaaS platforms (transcripts, messages) to identify project risks and drive smarter project management. Intent HQ – Delivers hyper-personalized marketing using behavioral data harvested via mobile SDKs. A Call to Action for the Telecom Community Tessler left the audience with a challenge: "We have to change the way we do things—or get wiped out by those who do." He encouraged every organization to return home with at least one AI use case to explore. “Try something. Test. Learn. Iterate.” To request the slides from the keynote, contact: info@truenorthadvisory.com

Get featured on the show by leaving us a Voice Mail: https://bit.ly/MIPVM FULL SHOW NOTES https://www.microsoftinnovationpodcast.com/680 Microsoft's AI landscape has evolved into three distinct categories: Copilot for Microsoft 365 (M365) applications, Copilot Studio for low-code chatbot development, and Azure AI Foundry (formerly AI Studio) for pro-code flexibility with AI models. Join Nanddeep Nachan on today's Power Platform Show to learn more. TAKEAWAYs• Declarative agents provide the simplest approach to extending Copilot functionality without complex licensing• Teams toolkit in Visual Studio Code offers an easy way to create declarative agents using simple JSON configurations• Copilot Studio gives business users a drag-and-drop interface for creating virtual assistants quickly• Azure AI Foundry provides comprehensive tools for developers and data scientists building advanced AI solutions• Retrieval Augmented Generation (RAG) pattern bridges the gap between LLMs and organization-specific data• Contract management use cases demonstrate how AI can extract insights from millions of documents• Graph RAG pattern enables "global queries" that deliver insights across entire document collections• AI Foundry solutions can be deployed directly to websites, Teams apps, or Microsoft 365 Copilot• Despite impressive personal productivity gains, many organizations still struggle to find compelling enterprise-level use cases for CopilotThis year we're adding a new show to our line up - The AI Advantage. We'll discuss the skills you need to thrive in an AI-enabled world. DynamicsMinds is a world-class event in Slovenia that brings together Microsoft product managers, industry leaders, and dedicated users to explore the latest in Microsoft Dynamics 365, the Power Platform, and Copilot.Early bird tickets are on sale now and listeners of the Microsoft Innovation Podcast get 10% off with the code MIPVIP144bff https://www.dynamicsminds.com/register/?voucher=MIPVIP144bff Accelerate your Microsoft career with the 90 Day Mentoring Challenge We've helped 1,300+ people across 70+ countries establish successful careers in the Microsoft Power Platform and Dynamics 365 ecosystem.Benefit from expert guidance, a supportive community, and a clear career roadmap. A lot can change in 90 days, get started today!Support the showIf you want to get in touch with me, you can message me here on Linkedin.Thanks for listening

This week, we discuss Google being found to be a monopoly, OpenAI's “offer” to buy Chrome, and some hot takes on JSON. Plus, is it better to wait on hold or ask for a callback? Watch the YouTube Live Recording of Episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhUxUPJv5g4) 516 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhUxUPJv5g4) Runner-up Titles Just Fine The SDT “Fine” Scale Callback Asynchronous Friendship I would love to get to know you better…over text Send you Jams to the dry cleaners. JSON Take it xslt-easy! Rundown OpenAI OpenAI in talks to pay about $3 billion to acquire AI coding startup Windsurf (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/16/openai-in-talks-to-pay-about-3-billion-to-acquire-startup-windsurf.html) The Cursor Mirage (https://artificialintelligencemadesimple.substack.com/p/the-cursor-mirage) AI is for Tinkerers (https://redmonk.com/kholterhoff/2023/06/27/ai-is-for-tinkerers/) Vibe Coding is for PMs (https://redmonk.com/rstephens/2025/04/18/vibe-coding-is-for-pms/) OpenAI releases new simulated reasoning models with full tool access (https://arstechnica.com/ai/2025/04/openai-releases-new-simulated-reasoning-models-with-full-tool-access/) Clouded Judgement 4.18.25 - The Hidden Value in the AI Application Layer (https://cloudedjudgement.substack.com/p/clouded-judgement-41825-the-hidden?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=56878&post_id=161562220&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2l9&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email) OpenAI tells judge it would buy Chrome from Google (https://www.theverge.com/news/653882/openai-chrome-google-us-judge) The Creators of Model Context Protocol (https://www.latent.space/p/mcp?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email) Judge finds Google holds illegal online ad tech monopolies (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/17/judge-finds-google-holds-illegal-online-ad-tech-monopolies.html) Intuit, Owner of TurboTax, Wins Battle Against America's Taxpayers (https://prospect.org/power/2025-04-17-intuit-turbotax-wins-battle-against-taxpayers-irs-direct-file/) Relevant to your Interests Switch 2 Carts Still Taste Bad, Designed Purposefully To Be Spat Out (https://www.gamespot.com/articles/switch-2-carts-still-taste-bad-designed-purposefully-to-be-spat-out/1100-6530649/) CEO Andy Jassy's 2024 Letter to Shareholders (https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-2024-letter-to-shareholders) Amazon CEO Andy Jassy says AI costs will come down (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/10/amazon-ceo-andy-jassys-2025-shareholder-letter.html) Happy 18th Birthday CUDA! (https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-2024-letter-to-shareholders) Honeycomb Acquires Grit: A Strategic Investment in Pragmatic AI and Customer Value (https://www.honeycomb.io/blog/honeycomb-acquires-grit) Everything Announced at Google Cloud Next in 12 Minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OpHbyN4vEM) GitLab vs GitHub : Key Differences in 2025 (https://spacelift.io/blog/gitlab-vs-github) Old Fashioned Function Keys (https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2025/04/11/old-fashioned-function-keys/) Fake job seekers are flooding U.S. companies that are hiring for remote positions, (https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/08/fake-job-seekers-use-ai-to-interview-for-remote-jobs-tech-ceos-say.html) NetRise raises $10M to expand software supply chain security platform (https://siliconangle.com/2025/04/15/netrise-raises-10-million-expand-software-supply-chain-security-platform/) Mark Zuckerberg's antitrust testimony aired his wildest ideas from Meta's history (https://www.theverge.com/policy/649520/zuckerberg-meta-ftc-antitrust-testimony-facebook-history) How Much Should I Be Spending On Observability? (https://www.honeycomb.io/blog/how-much-should-i-spend-on-observability-pt1) Did we just make platform engineering much easier by shipping a cloud IDP? (https://seroter.com/2025/04/16/did-we-just-make-platform-engineering-much-easier-by-shipping-a-cloud-idp/) Google Cloud Next 2025: Agentic AI Stack, Multimodality, And Sovereignty (https://www.forrester.com/blogs/google-next-2025-agentic-ai-stack-multimodality-and-sovereignty/) iPhone Shipments Down 9% in China's Q1 Smartphone Boom (https://www.macrumors.com/2025/04/18/iphone-shipments-down-in-china-q1/) Exclusive: Anthropic warns fully AI employees are a year away (https://www.axios.com/2025/04/22/ai-anthropic-virtual-employees-security) Synology requires self-branded drives for some consumer NAS systems, drops full functionality and support for third-party HDDs (https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/nas/synology-requires-self-branded-drives-for-some-consumer-nas-systems-drops-full-functionality-and-support-for-third-party-hdds) Porting Tailscale to Plan 9 (https://tailscale.com/blog/plan9-port?ck_subscriber_id=512840665&utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=[Last%20Week%20in%20AWS]%20Issue%20#418:%20Another%20New%20Capacity%20Dingus%20-%2017270009) CVE Foundation (https://www.thecvefoundation.org/) The Cursor Mirage (https://artificialintelligencemadesimple.substack.com/p/the-cursor-mirage) There's a Lot of Bad Telemetry Out There (https://blog.olly.garden/theres-a-lot-of-bad-telemetry-out-there) Gee Wiz (https://redmonk.com/rstephens/2025/04/04/gee-wiz/?ck_subscriber_id=512840665&utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=[Last%20Week%20in%20AWS]%20Issue%20#418:%20Another%20New%20Capacity%20Dingus%20-%2017270009) Nonsense Silicon Valley crosswalk buttons hacked to imitate Musk, Zuckerberg's voices (https://techcrunch.com/2025/04/14/silicon-valley-crosswalk-buttons-hacked-to-imitate-musk-zuckerberg-voices/) A Visit to Costco in France (https://davidlebovitz.substack.com/p/a-visit-to-costco-in-france) No sweat: Humanoid robots run a Chinese half-marathon (https://apnews.com/article/china-robot-half-marathon-153c6823bd628625106ed26267874d21) Metre, a consistent measurement of the world (https://mappingignorance.org/2025/04/23/150-years-ago-the-metre-convention-determined-how-we-measure-the-world/) Conferences DevOps Days Atlanta (https://devopsdays.org/events/2025-atlanta/welcome/), April 29th-30th. KCD Texas Austin 2025 (https://community.cncf.io/events/details/cncf-kcd-texas-presents-kcd-texas-austin-2025/), May 15th, Whitney Lee Speaking. Cloud Foundry Day US (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/), May 14th, Palo Alto, CA, Coté speaking. Fr (https://vmwarereg.fig-street.com/051325-tanzu-workshop/)ee AI workshop (https://vmwarereg.fig-street.com/051325-tanzu-workshop/), May 13th. day before C (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/)loud (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/) (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/)Foundry (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/) Day (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/cloud-foundry-day-north-america/). NDC Oslo (https://ndcoslo.com/), May 21st-23th, Coté speaking. SDT News & Community Join our Slack community (https://softwaredefinedtalk.slack.com/join/shared_invite/zt-1hn55iv5d-UTfN7mVX1D9D5ExRt3ZJYQ#/shared-invite/email) Email the show: questions@softwaredefinedtalk.com (mailto:questions@softwaredefinedtalk.com) Free stickers: Email your address to stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com (mailto:stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com) Follow us on social media: Twitter (https://twitter.com/softwaredeftalk), Threads (https://www.threads.net/@softwaredefinedtalk), Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@softwaredefinedtalk), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/software-defined-talk/), BlueSky (https://bsky.app/profile/softwaredefinedtalk.com) Watch us on: Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/sdtpodcast), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi3OJPV6h9tp-hbsGBLGsDQ/featured), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/softwaredefinedtalk/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@softwaredefinedtalk) Book offer: Use code SDT for $20 off "Digital WTF" by Coté (https://leanpub.com/digitalwtf/c/sdt) Sponsor the show (https://www.softwaredefinedtalk.com/ads): ads@softwaredefinedtalk.com (mailto:ads@softwaredefinedtalk.com) Recommendations Brandon: Dope Thief (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/dope_thief) on Apple TV (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/dope_thief) Coté: Check out the recording of the Tanzu Annual update (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QZXzJcAfQ), all about Tanzu's private AI platform. Next, watch Coté's new MCP for D&D video (#4) figures out something cool to do with MCP Prompts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEtYBznneFg), they make sense now. And, a regret-a-mmendation: Fields Notes annual subscription (https://fieldnotesbrand.com/limited-editions). Photo Credits Header (https://unsplash.com/photos/a-telephone-sitting-on-top-of-a-wooden-shelf-2XnGRN_caHc)

In this episode, Pallavi Koppol, Research Scientist at Databricks, explores the importance of domain-specific intelligence in large language models (LLMs). She discusses how enterprises need models tailored to their unique jargon, data, and tasks rather than relying solely on general benchmarks.Highlights include:- Why benchmarking LLMs for domain-specific tasks is critical for enterprise AI.- An introduction to the Databricks Intelligence Benchmarking Suite (DIBS).- Evaluating models on real-world applications like RAG, text-to-JSON, and function calling.- The evolving landscape of open-source vs. closed-source LLMs.- How industry and academia can collaborate to improve AI benchmarking.

Discover how Oracle APEX leverages OCI AI services to build smarter, more efficient applications. Hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham interview APEX experts Chaitanya Koratamaddi, Apoorva Srinivas, and Toufiq Mohammed about how key services like OCI Vision, Oracle Digital Assistant, and Document Understanding integrate with Oracle APEX.   Packed with real-world examples, this episode highlights all the ways you can enhance your APEX apps.   Oracle APEX: Empowering Low Code Apps with AI: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-apex-empowering-low-code-apps-with-ai/146047/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X: https://x.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, Kris-Ann Nansen, Radhika Banka, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   ---------------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started! 00:25 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Team Lead: Editorial Services. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we looked at how generative AI powers Oracle APEX and in today's episode, we're going to focus on integrating APEX with OCI AI Services. Lois: That's right, Niki. We're going to look at how you can use Oracle AI services like OCI Vision, Oracle Digital Assistant, Document Understanding, OCI Generative AI, and more to enhance your APEX apps. 01:03 Nikita: And to help us with it all, we've got three amazing experts with us, Chaitanya Koratamaddi, Director of Product Management at Oracle, and senior product managers, Apoorva Srinivas and Toufiq Mohammed. In today's episode, we'll go through each Oracle AI service and look at how it interacts with APEX. Apoorva, let's start with you. Can you explain what the OCI Vision service is? Apoorva: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure Vision is a serverless multi-tenant service accessible using the console or REST APIs. You can upload images to detect and classify objects in them. With prebuilt models available, developers can quickly build image recognition into their applications without machine learning expertise. OCI Vision service provides a fully managed model infrastructure. With complete integration with OCI Data Labeling, you can build custom models easily. OCI Vision service provides pretrained models-- Image Classification, Object Detection, Face Detection, and Text Recognition. You can build custom models for Image Classification and Object Detection. 02:24 Lois: Ok. What about its use cases? How can OCI Vision make APEX apps more powerful? Apoorva: Using OCI Vision, you can make images and videos discoverable and searchable in your APEX app.  You can use OCI Vision to detect and classify objects in the images. OCI Vision also highlights the objects using a red rectangular box. This comes in handy in use cases such as detecting vehicles that have violated the rules in traffic images. You can use OCI Vision to identify visual anomalies in your data. This is a very popular use case where you can detect anomalies in cancer X-ray images to detect cancer. These are some of the most popular use cases of using OCI Vision with your APEX app. But the possibilities are endless and you can use OCI Vision for any of your image analysis. 03:29 Nikita: Let's shift gears to Oracle Digital Assistant. Chaitanya, can you tell us what it's all about? Chaitanya: Oracle Digital Assistant is a low-code conversational AI platform that allows businesses to build and deploy AI assistants. It provides natural language understanding, automatic speech recognition, and text-to-speech capabilities to enable human-like interactions with customers and employees. Oracle Digital Assistant comes with prebuilt templates for you to get started.  04:00 Lois: What are its key features and benefits, Chaitanya? How does it enhance the user experience? Chaitanya: Oracle Digital Assistant provides conversational AI capabilities that include generative AI features, natural language understanding and ML, AI-powered voice, and analytics and insights. Integration with enterprise applications become easier with unified conversational experience, prebuilt chatbots for Oracle Cloud applications, and chatbot architecture frameworks. Oracle Digital Assistant provides advanced conversational design tools, conversational designer, dialogue and domain trainer, and native multilingual support. Oracle Digital Assistant is open, scalable, and secure. It provides multi-channel support, automated bot-to-agent transfer, and integrated authentication profile. 04:56 Nikita: And what about the architecture? What happens at the back end? Chaitanya: Developers assemble digital assistants from one or more skills. Skills can be based on prebuilt skills provided by Oracle or third parties, custom developed, or based on one of the many skill templates available. 05:16 Lois: Chaitanya, what exactly are “skills” within the Oracle Digital Assistant framework?  Chaitanya: Skills are individual chatbots that are designed to interact with users and fulfill specific type of tasks. Each skill helps a user complete a task through a combination of text messages and simple UI elements like select list. When a user request is submitted through a channel, the Digital Assistant routes the user's request to the most appropriate skill to satisfy the user's request. Skills can combine multilingual NLP deep learning engine, a powerful dialogflow engine, and integration components to connect to back-end systems.  Skills provide a modular way to build your chatbot functionality. Now users connect with a chatbot through channels such as Facebook, Microsoft Teams, or in our case, Oracle APEX chatbot, which is embedded into an APEX application. 06:21 Nikita: That's fascinating. So, what are some use cases of Oracle Digital Assistant in APEX apps? Chaitanya: Digital assistants streamline approval processes by collecting information, routing requests, and providing status updates. Digital assistants offer instant access to information and documentation, answering common questions and guiding users. Digital assistants assist sales teams by automating tasks, responding to inquiries, and guiding prospects through the sales funnel. Digital assistants facilitate procurement by managing orders, tracking deliveries, and handling supplier communication. Digital assistants simplify expense approvals by collecting reports, validating receipts, and routing them for managerial approval. Digital assistants manage inventory by tracking stock levels, reordering supplies, and providing real-time inventory updates. Digital assistants have become a common UX feature in any enterprise application. 07:28 Want to learn how to design stunning, responsive enterprise applications directly from your browser with minimal coding? The new Oracle APEX Developer Professional learning path and certification enables you to leverage AI-assisted development, including generative AI and Database 23ai, to build secure, scalable web and mobile applications with advanced AI-powered features. From now through May 15, 2025, we're waiving the certification exam fee (valued at $245). So, what are you waiting for? Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started today. 08:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Thanks for that, Chaitanya. Toufiq, let's talk about the OCI Document Understanding service. What is it? Toufiq: Using this service, you can upload documents to extract text, tables, and other key data. This means the service can automatically identify and extract relevant information from various types of documents, such as invoices, receipts, contracts, etc. The service is serverless and multitenant, which means you don't need to manage any servers or infrastructure. You can access this service using the console, REST APIs, SDK, or CLI, giving you multiple ways to integrate. 08:55 Nikita: What do we use for APEX apps?  Toufiq: For APEX applications, we will be using REST APIs to integrate the service. Additionally, you can process individual files or batches of documents using the ProcessorJob API endpoint. This flexibility allows you to handle different volumes of documents efficiently, whether you need to process a single document or thousands at once. With these capabilities, the OCI Document Understanding service can significantly streamline your document processing tasks, saving time and reducing the potential for manual errors. 09:36 Lois: Ok.  What are the different types of models available? How do they cater to various business needs? Toufiq: Let us start with pre-trained models. These are ready-to-use models that come right out of the box, offering a range of functionalities. The available models are Optical Character Recognition (OCR) enables the service to extract text from documents, allowing you to digitize, scan the documents effortlessly. You can precisely extract text content from documents. Key-value extraction, useful in streamlining tasks like invoice processing. Table extraction can intelligently extract tabular data from documents. Document classification automatically categorizes documents based on their content. OCR PDF enables seamless extraction of text from PDF files. Now, what if your business needs go beyond these pre-trained models. That's where custom models come into play. You have the flexibility to train and build your own models on top of these foundational pre-trained models. Models available for training are key value extraction and document classification. 10:50 Nikita: What does the architecture look like for OCI Document Understanding? Toufiq: You can ingest or supply the input file in two different ways. You can upload the file to an OCI Object Storage location. And in your request, you can point the Document Understanding service to pick the file from this Object Storage location.  Alternatively, you can upload a file directly from your computer. Once the file is uploaded, the Document Understanding service can process the file and extract key information using the pre-trained models. You can also customize models to tailor the extraction to your data or use case. After processing the file, the Document Understanding service stores the results in JSON format in the Object Storage output bucket. Your Oracle APEX application can then read the JSON file from the Object Storage output location, parse the JSON, and store useful information at local table or display it on the screen to the end user. 11:52 Lois: And what about use cases? How are various industries using this service? Toufiq: In financial services, you can utilize Document Understanding to extract data from financial statements, classify and categorize transactions, identify and extract payment details, streamline tax document management. Under manufacturing, you can perform text extraction from shipping labels and bill of lading documents, extract data from production reports, identify and extract vendor details. In the healthcare industry, you can automatically process medical claims, extract patient information from forms, classify and categorize medical records, identify and extract diagnostic codes. This is not an exhaustive list, but provides insights into some industry-specific use cases for Document Understanding. 12:50 Nikita: Toufiq, let's switch to the big topic everyone's excited about—the OCI Generative AI Service. What exactly is it? Toufiq: OCI Generative AI is a fully managed service that provides a set of state of the art, customizable large language models that cover a wide range of use cases. It provides enterprise grade generative AI with data governance and security, which means only you have access to your data and custom-trained models. OCI Generative AI provides pre-trained out-of-the-box LLMs for text generation, summarization, and text embedding. OCI Generative AI also provides necessary tools and infrastructure to define models with your own business knowledge. 13:37 Lois: Generally speaking, how is OCI Generative AI useful?  Toufiq: It supports various large language models. New models available from Meta and Cohere include Llama2 developed by Meta, and Cohere's Command model, their flagship text generation model. Additionally, Cohere offers the Summarize model, which provides high-quality summaries, accurately capturing essential information from documents, and the Embed model, converting text to vector embeddings representation. OCI Generative AI also offers dedicated AI clusters, enabling you to host foundational models on private GPUs. It integrates LangChain and open-source framework for developing new interfaces for generative AI applications powered by language models. Moreover, OCI Generative AI facilitates generative AI operations, providing content moderation controls, zero downtime endpoint model swaps, and endpoint deactivation and activation capabilities. For each model endpoint, OCI Generative AI captures a series of analytics, including call statistics, tokens processed, and error counts. 14:58 Nikita: What about the architecture? How does it handle user input? Toufiq: Users can input natural language, input/output examples, and instructions. The LLM analyzes the text and can generate, summarize, transform, extract information, or classify text according to the user's request. The response is sent back to the user in the specified format, which can include raw text or formatting like bullets and numbering, etc. 15:30 Lois: Can you share some practical use cases for generative AI in APEX apps?  Toufiq: Some of the OCI generative AI use cases for your Oracle APEX apps include text summarization. Generative AI can quickly summarize lengthy documents such as articles, transcripts, doctor's notes, and internal documents. Businesses can utilize generative AI to draft marketing copy, emails, blog posts, and product descriptions efficiently. Generative AI-powered chatbots are capable of brainstorming, problem solving, and answering questions. With generative AI, content can be rewritten in different styles or languages. This is particularly useful for localization efforts and catering to diverse audience. Generative AI can classify intent in customer chat logs, support tickets, and more. This helps businesses understand customer needs better and provide tailored responses and solutions. By searching call transcripts, internal knowledge sources, Generative AI enables businesses to efficiently answer user queries. This enhances information retrieval and decision-making processes. 16:47 Lois: Before we let you go, can you explain what Select AI is? How is it different from the other AI services? Toufiq: Select AI is a feature of Autonomous Database. This is where Select AI differs from the other AI services. Be it OCI Vision, Document Understanding, or OCI Generative AI, these are all freely managed standalone services on Oracle Cloud, accessible via REST APIs. Whereas Select AI is a feature available in Autonomous Database. That means to use Select AI, you need Autonomous Database.  17:26 Nikita: And what can developers do with Select AI? Toufiq: Traditionally, SQL is the language used to query the data in the database. With Select AI, you can talk to the database and get insights from the data in the database using human language. At the very basic, what Select AI does is it generates SQL queries using natural language, like an NL2SQL capability.  17:52 Nikita: How does it actually do that? Toufiq: When a user asks a question, the first step Select AI does is look into the AI profile, which you, as a developer, define. The AI profile holds crucial information, such as table names, the LLM provider, and the credentials needed to authenticate with the LLM service. Next, Select AI constructs a prompt. This prompt includes information from the AI profile and the user's question.  Essentially, it's a packet of information containing everything the LLM service needs to generate SQL. The next step is generating SQL using LLM. The prompt prepared by Select AI is sent to the available LLM services via REST. Which LLM to use is configured in the AI profile. The supported providers are OpenAI, Cohere, Azure OpenAI, and OCI Generative AI. Once the SQL is generated by the LLM service, it is returned to the application. The app can then handle the SQL query in various ways, such as displaying the SQL results in a report format or as charts, etc.  19:05 Lois: This has been an incredible discussion! Thank you, Chaitanya, Apoorva, and Toufiq, for walking us through all of these amazing AI tools. If you're ready to dive deeper, visit mylearn.oracle.com and search for the Oracle APEX: Empowering Low Code Apps with AI course. You'll find step-by-step guides and demos for everything we covered today.  Nikita: Until next week, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 19:31 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.  

Allen Wyma talks with WindSoilder, a contributor to Nushell, a shell that treats data as structured tables. WindSoilder shares his journey into programming, his work on Nushell, and how Rust has shaped his development experience. Contributing to Rustacean Station Rustacean Station is a community project; get in touch with us if you'd like to suggest an idea for an episode or offer your services as a host or audio editor! Twitter: @rustaceanfm Discord: Rustacean Station Github: @rustacean-station Email: hello@rustacean-station.org Timestamps [@00:00] - Meet WindSoilder: Python developer and Rust enthusiast [@04:15] - Discovering Rust and starting with Nushell [@09:30] - Structured data pipelines in Nushell [@15:20] - Using Nushell for CSV, JSON, and HTTP tasks [@20:45] - Integrating Nushell with external commands and plugins [@27:35] - From contributor to core team member [@33:10] - Learning Rust through Nushell: Challenges and rewards [@38:50] - Upcoming features and improvements in Nushell [@44:25] - Advice for new contributors and Rust beginners [@47:40] - Final thoughts and community resources Credits Intro Theme: Aerocity Audio Editing: Plangora Hosting Infrastructure: Jon Gjengset Show Notes: Plangora Hosts: Allen Wyma

RJJ Software's Software Development Service This episode of The Modern .NET Show is supported, in part, by RJJ Software's Software Development Services, whether your company is looking to elevate its UK operations or reshape its US strategy, we can provide tailored solutions that exceed expectations. Show Notes "So on my side it was actually, the interesting experience was that I kind of used it one way, because it was mainly about reading the Python code, the JavaScript code, and, let's say like, the Go implementations, trying to understand what are the concepts, what are the ways about how it has been implemented by the different teams. And then, you know, switching mentally into the other direction of writing than the code in C#."— Jochen Kirstaetter Welcome friends to The Modern .NET Show; the premier .NET podcast, focusing entirely on the knowledge, tools, and frameworks that all .NET developers should have in their toolbox. We are the go-to podcast for .NET developers worldwide, and I am your host: Jamie “GaProgMan” Taylor. In this episode, Jochen Kirstaetter joined us to talk about his .NET SDK for interacting with Google's Gemini suite of LLMs. Jochen tells us that he started his journey by looking at the existing .NET SDK, which didn't seem right to him, and wrote his own using the HttpClient and HttpClientFactory classes and REST. "I provide a test project with a lot of tests. And when you look at the simplest one, is that you get your instance of the Generative AI type, which you pass in either your API key, if you want to use it against Google AI, or you pass in your project ID and location if you want to use it against Vertex AI. Then you specify which model that you like to use, and you specify the prompt, and the method that you call is then GenerateContent and you get the response back. So effectively with four lines of code you have a full integration of Gemini into your .NET application."— Jochen Kirstaetter Along the way, we discuss the fact that Jochen had to look into the Python, JavaScript, and even Go SDKs to get a better understanding of how his .NET SDK should work. We discuss the “Pythonistic .NET” and “.NETy Python” code that developers can accidentally end up writing, if they're not careful when moving from .NET to Python and back. And we also talk about Jochen's use of tests as documentation for his SDK. Anyway, without further ado, let's sit back, open up a terminal, type in `dotnet new podcast` and we'll dive into the core of Modern .NET. Supporting the Show If you find this episode useful in any way, please consider supporting the show by either leaving a review (check our review page for ways to do that), sharing the episode with a friend or colleague, buying the host a coffee, or considering becoming a Patron of the show. Full Show Notes The full show notes, including links to some of the things we discussed and a full transcription of this episode, can be found at: https://dotnetcore.show/season-7/google-gemini-in-net-the-ultimate-guide-with-jochen-kirstaetter/ Jason's Links: JoKi's MVP Profile JoKi's Google Developer Expert Profile JoKi's website Other Links: Generative AI for .NET Developers with Amit Bahree curl Noda Time with Jon Skeet Google Cloud samples repo on GitHub Google's Gemini SDK for Python Google's Gemini SDK for JavaScript Google's Gemini SDK for Go Vertex AI JoKi's base NuGet package: Mscc.GenerativeAI JoKi's NuGet package: Mscc.GenerativeAI.Google System.Text.Json gcloud CLI .NET Preprocessor directives .NET Target Framework Monikers QUIC protocol IAsyncEnumerable Microsoft.Extensions.AI Supporting the show: Leave a rating or review Buy the show a coffee Become a patron Getting in Touch: Via the contact page Joining the Discord Remember to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or wherever you find your podcasts, this will help the show's audience grow. Or you can just share the show with a friend. And don't forget to reach out via our Contact page. We're very interested in your opinion of the show, so please get in touch. You can support the show by making a monthly donation on the show's Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/TheDotNetCorePodcast. Music created by Mono Memory Music, licensed to RJJ Software for use in The Modern .NET Show

In this episode of In-Ear Insights, the Trust Insights podcast, Katie and Chris discuss MCP (Model Context Protocol) and agentic marketing. You’ll learn how MCP connects AI tools to automate tasks—but also why technical expertise is essential to use it effectively. You’ll discover the three layers of AI adoption, from manual prompts to fully autonomous agents, and why skipping foundational steps leads to costly mistakes. You’ll see why workflow automation (like N8N) is the bridge to agentic AI, and how to avoid falling for social media hype. Finally, you’ll get practical advice on staying ahead without drowning in tech overwhelm. Watch now to demystify AI's next big thing! Watch the video here: Can’t see anything? Watch it on YouTube here. Listen to the audio here: https://traffic.libsyn.com/inearinsights/tipodcast-what-is-mcp-agentic-ai-generative-ai.mp3 Download the MP3 audio here. Need help with your company’s data and analytics? Let us know! Join our free Slack group for marketers interested in analytics! [podcastsponsor] Machine-Generated Transcript What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode. Christopher S. Penn – 00:00 In this week’s In-Ear Insights, let’s talk about MCP—Model Context Protocol—and its applications for marketing and what it means. Katie, you said you have questions. Katie Robbert – 00:13 I do. I saw you posted in our free Slack group, Analytics for Marketers, towards the end of last week that one of the models had MCP available. When I see notifications like that, my first thought is: Is this something I need to pay attention to? Usually, you’re really good about letting me know, but I am a fully grown human who needs to be responsible for what I should be paying attention to and not just relying on the data scientist on my team. That was my first gut reaction—which is fair, because you’re a busy person. I like to keep you very busy, and you don’t always have time to let me know what I should be paying attention to. So that was problem one. Problem number two is, yes, you post things typically ahead of when they become more commonplace announcements. I saw a post this morning that I shared with you about MCP and agentic marketing processes, and how it’s going to replace your SEO if you’re doing traditional SEO. For some reason, that raised all of my insecurities and anxieties. Oh my gosh, I really am falling behind because I like to tell people about getting their foundation squared away. If I’m being really honest with myself, I think I focus on that because I feel so lost when I think about AI, agentic processes, MCP, N8N, and all these other things. So I’m like, let me focus on what I know best. But I am now in the boat where I feel like my boat is trailing behind the giant AI yacht. I’m dog-paddling to try to keep up, and I’m just not there. So help me understand a couple of things. One, what is MCP? Two, we’ve talked about agentic AI, but let’s talk about agentic marketing processes. And three, how is someone who isn’t in the weeds with AI every day supposed to not sit at their desk and cry over all of this? Those are big questions, so maybe let’s take them one at a time. All right, let’s start with: What is MCP? Christopher S. Penn – 02:36 Okay, MCP stands for Model Context Protocol. This is something initially advanced by Anthropic, the makers of Claude. It has since been adopted as a standard by OpenAI and now by Google. Sundar Pichai announced at Google Cloud Next last week that the Gemini family will adopt MCP. So what is this? It’s a way for a generative AI model to interface with other systems—a process called tool handling. MCP is a specific kind of tool. You create an MCP server that does stuff behind the scenes. It can be as simple as reading files from your disk or as complicated as using a bunch of SEO tools to optimize a page. It makes that keyword tool available in a tool like Claude Desktop. You could call the tool something like “Make a Katie Joke.” That would be the tool name. You would build an MCP server that talks to an LLM to do all these things behind the scenes. But in Claude, it would just appear as a little tool icon. You’d say, “Hey, Claude, use the Make a Katie Joke tool to make a joke that Katie would make,” and it would talk to that MCP server and kick off all these processes behind the scenes. So think of MCP as a kind of natural language API where, in a conversation with ChatGPT or Claude, you’d say, “Hey, write me some Google Ads with the Google Ads tool.” If you’ve built this tool for yourself or use one of the many free, open MCP servers available (which have data privacy issues), you can add new capabilities to generative AI that the tools don’t have on their own. The thing is, you still have to know what the tool does. You have to build it if it doesn’t exist, integrate it, and know when you should and shouldn’t use it. So as much as it may feel like you’re falling behind, believe it or not, your expertise is actually more important than ever for this. Even though we have MCP, N8N, and workflow automation, all that is software development. It still has to conform to the SDLC. You may not write code, but you better know the SDLC, or you’re going to waste a lot of time. Katie Robbert – 05:19 That’s helpful to know because, again, this may be—let me back up for a second. The information people share on social media is what they want you to see about them. They’re presenting their best selves. I understand that. I do that too as a representative of the company. That’s my job—to represent the best parts of what we do. And yet, my non-professional persona looks at what everyone else is sharing and thinks, Oh my gosh, I really am falling behind. And yet, here I am. My posts are right up there with the others. It’s like, no, I’m not. So I think that’s a little bit of the psychology of where a lot of people are feeling right now. We’re trying our best to look like we know what we’re talking about, but on a daily basis, we’re like, I have no idea what’s happening. So that’s part one. Now I understand what an MCP is. In a nutshell, it’s kind of like a connector between two systems. The commercial version is Zapier—a lot of marketers use Zapier. It’s like, how do I get my data from this place to that place? It transfers information from one system to another. Interestingly enough, I was at the animal shelter we work with yesterday, talking with the executive director. One of the problems she’s trying to solve is that she has literally hundreds of tabs in different spreadsheets of inventory at the shelter. They’re moving to a new shelter, and she’s trying to figure out where everything goes. I was describing to her a system—which doesn’t exist yet—that could include what you’re telling me is an MCP. In a very short version, I explained: We could take all your spreadsheets with all your tabs (which are basically your categories), put those into a database, and then layer generative AI on top of it with some system instructions. Your staff takes a picture of whatever’s been donated. Generative AI recognizes, Okay, that’s two bags of dog food, one thing of wet food, and some pee pads. It looks like those go in Room 121 with the other things, and it adds to the database. I was explaining this process without knowing what that connector was going to be. I said, Let me go back and talk to Chris about it. But I’m fairly certain that’s a thing that can exist. So it sounds like I was describing something I didn’t have the terminology for. Christopher S. Penn – 08:12 Exactly. Right now, here’s the thing—and this is something the LinkedIn hype crowd won’t tell you. As the average user, let me show you what the “getting started with MCP” quick start for non-technical users is. This is from Claude’s website: For Claude Desktop users, get started using MCP in Claude Desktop. First, install Claude Desktop. Second, go into the config file and edit this JSON. Katie Robbert – 08:41 You’ve already lost me. Christopher S. Penn – 08:42 Exactly. Oh, by the way, you also need Node.js on your computer for this to run properly. So when someone says MCP is the future and it’s so easy—well, yes, if you’re a technical person, that’s true. If you’re a non-technical person, this is useless because you’re not going to sit there and install Node.js just to configure a pre-built MCP server. You and your company—if you want to use these capabilities—need to have some IT resources because this is just straight-up IT. This isn’t even AI. This is just, Hey, you need these components in your kitchen before you can cook anything. As cool as MCP is (and believe me, it is very cool), it also has a very high technical bar of entry. So when you see somebody saying, Hey, this is the new AI-enabled MCP SEO, well, yes, that’s true. But what they’re not saying is, you’re probably not going to do this on your own if you’re a non-technical marketer. It’s a business ploy to say, You should hire us as your SEO firm because we’re AI-enabled and we know how to install MCP services. Like, yeah, I can do that too. I just don’t advertise it because it’s kind of a jerk move. Katie Robbert – 10:13 But I think that’s an important point to raise—not that you’re a jerk, but that a lot of us struggle with feeling like we’re not keeping up with AI because of these individuals—professionals, thought leaders, futurists, content creators—who put out this information: This is the future, this is how you’re going to do it. I can probably accurately describe agentic AI, but I couldn’t build it for you. And I think that’s where everyday marketers are struggling. Yeah, I think now I finally understand the concept, but I have no idea how to get started with the thing because there’s nothing out of the box for non-technical people. It’s all still, to your point, a lot of software development, a lot of IT. Even if it’s just installing things so you can get to the drag-and-drop, asking people to suddenly update their config file is maybe one step beyond their technical comfort zone. I just—I know the purpose of this episode is to understand more about MCP and agentic marketing, but I’m struggling to feel like I’m keeping up with being able to execute on all these things that are happening. Because every day, it’s something new, right? Christopher S. Penn – 11:54 So here’s how you get to MCP usage. First, you have to have the basics. Remember, we have the three layers we’ve talked about in the past: Done by you—You’re copy-pasting prompts. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s labor-intensive. If you’ve got a great prompt and a way of doing things that works, you’re already ahead of 95% of the crowd who’s still typing one-sentence prompts into ChatGPT. That’s step one. Done with you—How can you put that in some form of automation? We’ve talked about N8N in the past. I’ll give you an example: I put together a workflow for my newsletter where I say, Here’s my newsletter post. I want you to translate it into these four languages. It sends it to Google Gemini, then writes the updated versions back to my hard drive. This saves me about 20 minutes a week because I don’t have to copy-paste each prompt anymore. This is workflow automation. Done for you (Agentic)—To turn this into an MCP server (which makes it an agent, where I’m not part of the process at all), I’d add the MCP server node. Instead of saying, When manual start (when Chris clicks go), you’d have an MCP server that says, When a generative AI tool like Claude requests this, run the process. So, Claude would say, Hey, here’s this week’s newsletter—go make it. Claude Desktop would recognize there’s an Almost Timely Newsletter tool (an MCP server), send the request, the software would run, and when it’s done, it would send a message back to Claude saying, We’re done. That’s how MCP fits in. It takes the whole automation, puts it in a black box, and now it’s an agent. But you cannot build the agent without the workflow automation, and you cannot build the workflow automation without the standard operating procedure. If you don’t have that fundamental in place, you’re going to create garbage. Katie Robbert – 15:59 I think that’s also helpful because even just thinking about the step of translation—I’m assuming you didn’t just say, Hey, Gemini, translate this and accept whatever it gave back. You likely had to build system instructions that included, Translate it this way, then here’s how you’re going to double-check it, then here’s how you’re going to triple-check it. That to me is very helpful because you’re giving me confirmation that the foundational pieces still have to happen. And I think that’s where a lot of these content creators on social platforms talking about MCP and agentic AI are skipping that part of the conversation. Because, as we’ve said before, it’s not the fun stuff—it’s not the push-the-buttons, twist-the-knob, get-the-shiny-object part. It’s how you actually get things to work correctly. And that’s where, as a regular human, I get caught up in the hype: Oh, but they’re making it look so easy. You just do the thing. It’s like the people on social who post, Look how perfect my sourdough bread came out, but they’re not showing you the 17 loaves and five years of trial and error before this perfect loaf. Or they’re faking it with a mock background. I’m saying all this because I need that reminder—it’s all smoke and mirrors. There’s no shortcut for getting it done correctly. So when I see posts about agentic marketing systems and SEO and email marketing—You’re not even going to have to participate, and it’s going to get it right—I need that reminder that it’s all smoke and mirrors. That’s my therapy session for the morning. Christopher S. Penn – 18:33 And here’s the thing: If you have well-written standard operating procedures (SOPs) that are step-by-step, you can hand that to someone skilled at N8N to turn it into a workflow automation. But it has to be granular—Click here, then click here. That level of detail is so important. Once you have an SOP (your process), you turn it into workflow automation. Once the workflow automation works, you bolt on the MCP pieces, and now you have an agent. But here’s the danger: All these things use APIs, and APIs cost either time, money, or resources. I’m using Gemini’s free version, which Google trains on. If I was doing this for a client, I’d use the paid version (which doesn’t train), and the bills start coming in. Every API call costs money. If you don’t know what you’re doing and you haven’t perfected the process, you might end up with a five-figure server bill and wonder, What happened? Part of MCP construction and agentic AI is great development practices to make your code as efficient as possible. Otherwise, you’re going to burn a lot of money—and you may not even be cash-positive. Katie Robbert – 21:27 But look how fast it is! Look how cool it is! Christopher S. Penn – 21:36 It is cool. Katie Robbert – 21:38 Going back to the original question about MCP—I read a post this morning about agentic marketing systems using MCP and how it’s going to change the way you do SEO. It said it’s going to optimize your content, optimize for competitors, find keywords—all of which sounds really cool. But the way it was presented was like, Oh, duh, why am I not already doing this? I’m falling behind if I’m not letting the machines do my SEO for me and building these systems for my clients. This conversation has already made me feel better about where I am in terms of understanding and execution. Going back to—you still have to have those foundational pieces. Because agentic AI, MCPs, generative AI, shiny objects—it’s all just software development. Christopher S. Penn – 22:59 Exactly. It’s all software development. We’ve just gotten used to writing in natural language instead of code. The challenge with shiny objects is that the people promoting them correctly say, This is what’s possible. But at a certain point, even with agentic AI and MCP automations, it’s more efficient to go back to classical programming. N8N doesn’t scale as well as Python code. In the same way, a 3D printer is cool for making one thing at home, but if you want to make 10,000, classical injection molding is the way to go. New technology doesn’t solve old problems. Katie Robbert – 23:47 And yet, it’s going to happen. Well, I know we’re wrapping up this episode. This has been incredibly helpful and educational for me because every week there’s a new term, a new thing we’re being asked to wrap our heads around. As long as we can keep going back to It’s just software development, you still need the foundation, then I think myself and a lot of other people at my skill level are going to be like, Whew, okay, I can still breathe this week. I don’t have to panic just yet. Christopher S. Penn – 24:23 That said, at some point, we are going to have to make a training course on a system like N8N and workflow automation because it’s so valuable for the boring stuff—like keyword selection in SEO. Stay tuned for that. The best place to stay tuned for announcements from us is our free Slack group, Trust Insights AI Analytics for Marketers, where you and nearly 5,000 marketers are asking and answering each other’s questions every day about data science, analytics, and AI. Wherever you watch or listen to the show, if there’s a channel you’d rather have it on, go to trustinsights.ai/tipodcast to find us at all the places fine podcasts are served. Thanks for tuning in—I’ll talk to you on the next one! (Transcript ends with AI training permission notice.) Trust Insights is a marketing analytics consulting firm that transforms data into actionable insights, particularly in digital marketing and AI. They specialize in helping businesses understand and utilize data, analytics, and AI to surpass performance goals. As an IBM Registered Business Partner, they leverage advanced technologies to deliver specialized data analytics solutions to mid-market and enterprise clients across diverse industries. Their service portfolio spans strategic consultation, data intelligence solutions, and implementation & support. Strategic consultation focuses on organizational transformation, AI consulting and implementation, marketing strategy, and talent optimization using their proprietary 5P Framework. Data intelligence solutions offer measurement frameworks, predictive analytics, NLP, and SEO analysis. Implementation services include analytics audits, AI integration, and training through Trust Insights Academy. Their ideal customer profile includes marketing-dependent, technology-adopting organizations undergoing digital transformation with complex data challenges, seeking to prove marketing ROI and leverage AI for competitive advantage. Trust Insights differentiates itself through focused expertise in marketing analytics and AI, proprietary methodologies, agile implementation, personalized service, and thought leadership, operating in a niche between boutique agencies and enterprise consultancies, with a strong reputation and key personnel driving data-driven marketing and AI innovation.

We'll keep this brief because we're on a tight turnaround: GPT 4.1, previously known as the Quasar and Optimus models, is now live as the natural update for 4o/4o-mini (and the research preview of GPT 4.5). Though it is a general purpose model family, the headline features are: Coding abilities (o1-level SWEBench and SWELancer, but ok Aider) Instruction Following (with a very notable prompting guide) Long Context up to 1m tokens (with new MRCR and Graphwalk benchmarks) Vision (simply o1 level) Cheaper Pricing (cheaper than 4o, greatly improved prompt caching savings) We caught up with returning guest Michelle Pokrass and Josh McGrath to get more detail on each! Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome 00:00:57 GPC 4.1 Launch Overview 00:01:54 Developer Feedback and Model Names 00:02:53 Model Naming and Starry Themes 00:03:49 Confusion Over GPC 4.1 vs 4.5 00:04:47 Distillation and Model Improvements 00:05:45 Omnimodel Architecture and Future Plans 00:06:43 Core Capabilities of GPC 4.1 00:07:40 Training Techniques and Long Context 00:08:37 Challenges in Long Context Reasoning 00:09:34 Context Utilization in Models 00:10:31 Graph Walks and Model Evaluation 00:11:31 Real Life Applications of Graph Tasks 00:12:30 Multi-Hop Reasoning Benchmarks 00:13:30 Agentic Workflows and Backtracking 00:14:28 Graph Traversals for Agent Planning 00:15:24 Context Usage in API and Memory Systems 00:16:21 Model Performance in Long Context Tasks 00:17:17 Instruction Following and Real World Data 00:18:12 Challenges in Grading Instructions 00:19:09 Instruction Following Techniques 00:20:09 Prompting Techniques and Model Responses 00:21:05 Agentic Workflows and Model Persistence 00:22:01 Balancing Persistence and User Control 00:22:56 Evaluations on Model Edits and Persistence 00:23:55 XML vs JSON in Prompting 00:24:50 Instruction Placement in Context 00:25:49 Optimizing for Prompt Caching 00:26:49 Chain of Thought and Reasoning Models 00:27:46 Choosing the Right Model for Your Task 00:28:46 Coding Capabilities of GPC 4.1 00:29:41 Model Performance in Coding Tasks 00:30:39 Understanding Coding Model Differences 00:31:36 Using Smaller Models for Coding 00:32:33 Future of Coding in OpenAI 00:33:28 Internal Use and Success Stories 00:34:26 Vision and Multi-Modal Capabilities 00:35:25 Screen vs Embodied Vision 00:36:22 Vision Benchmarks and Model Improvements 00:37:19 Model Deprecation and GPU Usage 00:38:13 Fine-Tuning and Preference Steering 00:39:12 Upcoming Reasoning Models 00:40:10 Creative Writing and Model Humor 00:41:07 Feedback and Developer Community 00:42:03 Pricing and Blended Model Costs 00:44:02 Conclusion and Wrap-Up

Topics covered in this episode: How to Write a Git Commit Message Caddy Web Server Some new PEPs approved juv Extras Joke Watch on YouTube About the show Sponsored by Posit Connect: pythonbytes.fm/connect Connect with the hosts Michael: @mkennedy@fosstodon.org / @mkennedy.codes (bsky) Brian: @brianokken@fosstodon.org / @brianokken.bsky.social Show: @pythonbytes@fosstodon.org / @pythonbytes.fm (bsky) Join us on YouTube at pythonbytes.fm/live to be part of the audience. Usually Monday at 10am PT. Older video versions available there too. Finally, if you want an artisanal, hand-crafted digest of every week of the show notes in email form? Add your name and email to our friends of the show list, we'll never share it. Brian #1: How to Write a Git Commit Message Chris Beams 7 rules of a great commit message Separate subject from body with a blank line Limit the subject line to 50 characters Capitalize the subject line Do not end the subject line with a period Use the imperative mood in the subject line Wrap the body at 72 characters Use the body to explain what and why vs. how Article also includes Why a good commit message matters Discussion about each of the 7 rules Cool hat tips to other articles on the subject “Keep in mind: This has all been said before.” Each word is a different link. Michael #2: Caddy Web Server via Fredrik Mellström Like a more modern NGINX Caddy automatically obtains and renews TLS certificates for all your sites. Caddy's native configuration is a JSON document. Even localhost and internal IPs are served with TLS using the intermediate of a fully-automated, self-managed CA that is automatically installed into most local trust stores. Configure multiple Caddy instances with the same storage, and they will automatically coordinate certificate management as a fleet. Production-grade static file server. Brian #3: Some new PEPs approved PEP 770 – Improving measurability of Python packages with Software Bill-of-Materials Accepted for packaging Author: Seth Larson, Sponsor Brett Cannon “This PEP proposes using SBOM documents included in Python packages as a means to improve automated software measurability for Python packages.” PEP 750 – Template Strings Accepted for Python 3.14 Author: Jim Baker, Guido van Rossum, Paul Everitt, Kaudai Aono, Lysandros Nikolaou, Dave Peck “Templates provide developers with access to the string and its interpolated values before they are combined. This brings native flexible string processing to the Python language and enables safety checks, web templating, domain-specific languages, and more.” Michael #4: juv A toolkit for reproducible Jupyter notebooks, powered by uv. Create, manage, and run Jupyter notebooks with their dependencies Pin dependencies with PEP 723 - inline script metadata Launch ephemeral sessions for multiple front ends (e.g., JupyterLab, Notebook, NbClassic) Powered by uv for fast dependency management Use uvx to run jupyterlab with ephemeral virtual environments and tracked dependencies. Extras Brian: Status of Python versions new-ish format Use this all the time. Can't remember if we've covered the new format yet. See also Python endoflife.date Same dates, very visible encouragement to move on to Python 3.13 if you haven't already. Michael: Python 3.13.3 is out. .git-blame-ignore-revs follow up Joke: BGPT (thanks Doug Farrell)

The tRPC team declares v11 officially production-ready. tRPC allows devs to build typesafe APIs with types that can be shared on the client and server, and now it has support for TanStack Query v5, the ability to send and receive non-JSON data content types, improved support for RSCs, and the ability to stream responses.After the Next.js security incident a few weeks back, Netlify writes an open letter around the challenges Next.js poses when not hosted on Vercel. It raises valid points like a lack of adapters, no production grade documentation for serverless deployments, no visible roadmap or release schedule, and a disregard for open web standards, among others.Firefox is finally adding support for progressive web apps (PWAs), but its web app support will intentionally not look, feel, or behave the same way similar features do in other browsers.News:Paige - tRPC v11Jack - Firefox will support PWAs (finally)TJ - Next.js Netlify deployment dramaBonus News:Styled-components enter maintenance modeNew Bare JS runtimeWindsurf and Netlify partnership (and docs on the feature)What Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - Squeeze Me novelJack - Pickup Music siteTJ - Mario Kart WorldThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or talk to us on X, Bluesky, or YouTube.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fireFollow us on Bluesky @front-end-fire.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel @Front-EndFirePodcast

Brandon Liu is an open source developer and creator of the Protomaps basemap project. We talk about how static maps help developers build sites that last, the PMTiles file format, the role of OpenStreetMap, and his experience funding and running an open source project full time. Protomaps Protomaps PMTiles (File format used by Protomaps) Self-hosted slippy maps, for novices (like me) Why Deploy Protomaps on a CDN User examples Flickr Pinball Map Toilet Map Related projects OpenStreetMap (Dataset protomaps is based on) Mapzen (Former company that released details on what to display based on zoom levels) Mapbox GL JS (Mapbox developed source available map rendering library) MapLibre GL JS (Open source fork of Mapbox GL JS) Other links HTTP range requests (MDN) Hilbert curve Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: I'm talking to Brandon Liu. He's the creator of Protomaps, which is a way to easily create and host your own maps. Let's get into it. [00:00:09] Brandon: Hey, so thanks for having me on the podcast. So I'm Brandon. I work on an open source project called Protomaps. What it really is, is if you're a front end developer and you ever wanted to put maps on a website or on a mobile app, then Protomaps is sort of an open source solution for doing that that I hope is something that's way easier to use than, um, a lot of other open source projects. Why not just use Google Maps? [00:00:36] Jeremy: A lot of people are gonna be familiar with Google Maps. Why should they worry about whether something's open source? Why shouldn't they just go and use the Google maps API? [00:00:47] Brandon: So Google Maps is like an awesome thing it's an awesome product. Probably one of the best tech products ever right? And just to have a map that tells you what restaurants are open and something that I use like all the time especially like when you're traveling it has all that data. And the most amazing part is that it's free for consumers but it's not necessarily free for developers. Like if you wanted to embed that map onto your website or app, that usually has an API cost which still has a free tier and is affordable. But one motivation, one basic reason to use open source is if you have some project that doesn't really fit into that pricing model. You know like where you have to pay the cost of Google Maps, you have a side project, a nonprofit, that's one reason. But there's lots of other reasons related to flexibility or customization where you might want to use open source instead. Protomaps examples [00:01:49] Jeremy: Can you give some examples where people have used Protomaps and where that made sense for them? [00:01:56] Brandon: I follow a lot of the use cases and I also don't know about a lot of them because I don't have an API where I can track a hundred percent of the users. Some of them use the hosted version, but I would say most of them probably use it on their own infrastructure. One of the cool projects I've been seeing is called Toilet Map. And what toilet map is if you're in the UK and you want find a public restroom then it maps out, sort of crowdsourced all of the public restrooms. And that's important for like a lot of people if they have health issues, they need to find that information. And just a lot of different projects in the same vein. There's another one called Pinball Map which is sort of a hobby project to find all the pinball machines in the world. And they wanted to have a customized map that fit in with their theme of pinball. So these sorts of really cool indie projects are the ones I'm most excited about. Basemaps vs Overlays [00:02:57] Jeremy: And if we talk about, like the pinball map as an example, there's this concept of a basemap and then there's the things that you lay on top of it. What is a basemap and then is the pinball locations is that part of it or is that something separate? [00:03:12] Brandon: It's usually something separate. The example I usually use is if you go to a real estate site, like Zillow, you'll open up the map of Seattle and it has a bunch of pins showing all the houses, and then it has some information beneath it. That information beneath it is like labels telling, this neighborhood is Capitol Hill, or there is a park here. But all that information is common to a lot of use cases and it's not specific to real estate. So I think usually that's the distinction people use in the industry between like a base map versus your overlay. The overlay is like the data for your product or your company while the base map is something you could get from Google or from Protomaps or from Apple or from Mapbox that kind of thing. PMTiles for hosting the basemap and overlays [00:03:58] Jeremy: And so Protomaps in particular is responsible for the base map, and that information includes things like the streets and the locations of landmarks and things like that. Where is all that information coming from? [00:04:12] Brandon: So the base map information comes from a project called OpenStreetMap. And I would also, point out that for Protomaps as sort of an ecosystem. You can also put your overlay data into a format called PMTiles, which is sort of the core of what Protomaps is. So it can really do both. It can transform your data into the PMTiles format which you can host and you can also host the base map. So you kind of have both of those sides of the product in one solution. [00:04:43] Jeremy: And so when you say you have both are you saying that the PMTiles file can have, the base map in one file and then you would have the data you're laying on top in another file? Or what are you describing there? [00:04:57] Brandon: That's usually how I recommend to do it. Oftentimes there'll be sort of like, a really big basemap 'cause it has all of that data about like where the rivers are. Or while, if you want to put your map of toilets or park benches or pickleball courts on top, that's another file. But those are all just like assets you can move around like JSON or CSV files. Statically Hosted [00:05:19] Jeremy: And I think one of the things you mentioned was that your goal was to make Protomaps or the, the use of these PMTiles files easy to use. What does that look like for, for a developer? I wanna host a map. What do I actually need to, to put on my servers? [00:05:38] Brandon: So my usual pitch is that basically if you know how to use S3 or cloud storage, that you know how to deploy a map. And that, I think is the main sort of differentiation from most open source projects. Like a lot of them, they call themselves like, like some sort of self-hosted solution. But I've actually avoided using the term self-hosted because I think in most cases that implies a lot of complexity. Like you have to log into a Linux server or you have to use Kubernetes or some sort of Docker thing. What I really want to emphasize is the idea that, for Protomaps, it's self-hosted in the same way like CSS is self-hosted. So you don't really need a service from Amazon to host the JSON files or CSV files. It's really just a static file. [00:06:32] Jeremy: When you say static file that means you could use any static web host to host your HTML file, your JavaScript that actually renders the map. And then you have your PMTiles files, and you're not running a process or anything, you're just putting your files on a static file host. [00:06:50] Brandon: Right. So I think if you're a developer, you can also argue like a static file server is a server. It's you know, it's the cloud, it's just someone else's computer. It's really just nginx under the hood. But I think static storage is sort of special. If you look at things like static site generators, like Jekyll or Hugo, they're really popular because they're a commodity or like the storage is a commodity. And you can take your blog, make it a Jekyll blog, hosted on S3. One day, Amazon's like, we're charging three times as much so you can move it to a different cloud provider. And that's all vendor neutral. So I think that's really the special thing about static storage as a primitive on the web. Why running servers is a problem for resilience [00:07:36] Jeremy: Was there a prior experience you had? Like you've worked with maps for a very long time. Were there particular difficulties you had where you said I just gotta have something that can be statically hosted? [00:07:50] Brandon: That's sort of exactly why I got into this. I've been working sort of in and around the map space for over a decade, and Protomaps is really like me trying to solve the same problem I've had over and over again in the past, just like once and forever right? Because like once this problem is solved, like I don't need to deal with it again in the future. So I've worked at a couple of different companies before, mostly as a contractor, for like a humanitarian nonprofit for a design company doing things like, web applications to visualize climate change. Or for even like museums, like digital signage for museums. And oftentimes they had some sort of data visualization component, but always sort of the challenge of how to like, store and also distribute like that data was something that there wasn't really great open source solutions. So just for map data, that's really what motivated that design for Protomaps. [00:08:55] Jeremy: And in those, those projects in the past, were those things where you had to run your own server, run your own database, things like that? [00:09:04] Brandon: Yeah. And oftentimes we did, we would spin up an EC2 instance, for maybe one client and then we would have to host this server serving map data forever. Maybe the client goes away, or I guess it's good for business if you can sign some sort of like long-term support for that client saying, Hey, you know, like we're done with a project, but you can pay us to maintain the EC2 server for the next 10 years. And that's attractive. but it's also sort of a pain, because usually what happens is if people are given the choice, like a developer between like either I can manage the server on EC2 or on Rackspace or Hetzner or whatever, or I can go pay a SaaS to do it. In most cases, businesses will choose to pay the SaaS. So that's really like what creates a sort of lock-in is this preference for like, so I have this choice between like running the server or paying the SaaS. Like businesses will almost always go and pay the SaaS. [00:10:05] Jeremy: Yeah. And in this case, you either find some kind of free hosting or low-cost hosting just to host your files and you upload the files and then you're good from there. You don't need to maintain anything. [00:10:18] Brandon: Exactly, and that's really the ideal use case. so I have some users these, climate science consulting agencies, and then they might have like a one-off project where they have to generate the data once, but instead of having to maintain this server for the lifetime of that project, they just have a file on S3 and like, who cares? If that costs a couple dollars a month to run, that's fine, but it's not like S3 is gonna be deprecated, like it's gonna be on an insecure version of Ubuntu or something. So that's really the ideal, set of constraints for using Protomaps. [00:10:58] Jeremy: Yeah. Something this also makes me think about is, is like the resilience of sites like remaining online, because I, interviewed, Kyle Drake, he runs Neocities, which is like a modern version of GeoCities. And if I remember correctly, he was mentioning how a lot of old websites from that time, if they were running a server backend, like they were running PHP or something like that, if you were to try to go to those sites, now they're like pretty much all dead because there needed to be someone dedicated to running a Linux server, making sure things were patched and so on and so forth. But for static sites, like the ones that used to be hosted on GeoCities, you can go to the internet archive or other websites and they were just files, right? You can bring 'em right back up, and if anybody just puts 'em on a web server, then you're good. They're still alive. Case study of news room preferring static hosting [00:11:53] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. One place that's kind of surprising but makes sense where this comes up, is for newspapers actually. Some of the users using Protomaps are the Washington Post. And the reason they use it, is not necessarily because they don't want to pay for a SaaS like Google, but because if they make an interactive story, they have to guarantee that it still works in a couple of years. And that's like a policy decision from like the editorial board, which is like, so you can't write an article if people can't view it in five years. But if your like interactive data story is reliant on a third party, API and that third party API becomes deprecated, or it changes the pricing or it, you know, it gets acquired, then your journalism story is not gonna work anymore. So I have seen really good uptake among local news rooms and even big ones to use things like Protomaps just because it makes sense for the requirements. Working on Protomaps as an open source project for five years [00:12:49] Jeremy: How long have you been working on Protomaps and the parts that it's made up of such as PMTiles? [00:12:58] Brandon: I've been working on it for about five years, maybe a little more than that. It's sort of my pandemic era project. But the PMTiles part, which is really the heart of it only came in about halfway. Why not make a SaaS? [00:13:13] Brandon: So honestly, like when I first started it, I thought it was gonna be another SaaS and then I looked at it and looked at what the environment was around it. And I'm like, uh, so I don't really think I wanna do that. [00:13:24] Jeremy: When, when you say you looked at the environment around it what do you mean? Why did you decide not to make it a SaaS? [00:13:31] Brandon: Because there already is a lot of SaaS out there. And I think the opportunity of making something that is unique in terms of those use cases, like I mentioned like newsrooms, was clear. Like it was clear that there was some other solution, that could be built that would fit these needs better while if it was a SaaS, there are plenty of those out there. And I don't necessarily think that they're well differentiated. A lot of them all use OpenStreetMap data. And it seems like they mainly compete on price. It's like who can build the best three column pricing model. And then once you do that, you need to build like billing and metrics and authentication and like those problems don't really interest me. So I think, although I acknowledge sort of the indie hacker ethos now is to build a SaaS product with a monthly subscription, that's something I very much chose not to do, even though it is for sure like the best way to build a business. [00:14:29] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people can appreciate that perspective because it's, it's almost like we have SaaS overload, right? Where you have so many little bills for your project where you're like, another $5 a month, another $10 a month, or if you're a business, right? Those, you add a bunch of zeros and at some point it's just how many of these are we gonna stack on here? [00:14:53] Brandon: Yeah. And honestly. So I really think like as programmers, we're not really like great at choosing how to spend money like a $10 SaaS. That's like nothing. You know? So I can go to Starbucks and I can buy a pumpkin spice latte, and that's like $10 basically now, right? And it's like I'm able to make that consumer choice in like an instant just to spend money on that. But then if you're like, oh, like spend $10 on a SaaS that somebody put a lot of work into, then you're like, oh, that's too expensive. I could just do it myself. So I'm someone that also subscribes to a lot of SaaS products. and I think for a lot of things it's a great fit. Many open source SaaS projects are not easy to self host [00:15:37] Brandon: But there's always this tension between an open source project that you might be able to run yourself and a SaaS. And I think a lot of projects are at different parts of the spectrum. But for Protomaps, it's very much like I'm trying to move maps to being it is something that is so easy to run yourself that anyone can do it. [00:16:00] Jeremy: Yeah, and I think you can really see it with, there's a few SaaS projects that are successful and they're open source, but then you go to look at the self-hosting instructions and it's either really difficult to find and you find it, and then the instructions maybe don't work, or it's really complicated. So I think doing the opposite with Protomaps. As a user, I'm sure we're all appreciative, but I wonder in terms of trying to make money, if that's difficult. [00:16:30] Brandon: No, for sure. It is not like a good way to make money because I think like the ideal situation for an open source project that is open that wants to make money is the product itself is fundamentally complicated to where people are scared to run it themselves. Like a good example I can think of is like Supabase. Supabase is sort of like a platform as a service based on Postgres. And if you wanted to run it yourself, well you need to run Postgres and you need to handle backups and authentication and logging, and that stuff all needs to work and be production ready. So I think a lot of people, like they don't trust themselves to run database backups correctly. 'cause if you get it wrong once, then you're kind of screwed. So I think that fundamental aspect of the product, like a database is something that is very, very ripe for being a SaaS while still being open source because it's fundamentally hard to run. Another one I can think of is like tailscale, which is, like a VPN that works end to end. That's something where, you know, it has this networking complexity where a lot of developers don't wanna deal with that. So they'd happily pay, for tailscale as a service. There is a lot of products or open source projects that eventually end up just changing to becoming like a hosted service. Businesses going from open source to closed or restricted licenses [00:17:58] Brandon: But then in that situation why would they keep it open source, right? Like, if it's easy to run yourself well, doesn't that sort of cannibalize their business model? And I think that's really the tension overall in these open source companies. So you saw it happen to things like Elasticsearch to things like Terraform where they eventually change the license to one that makes it difficult for other companies to compete with them. [00:18:23] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean there's been a number of cases like that. I mean, specifically within the mapping community, one I can think of was Mapbox's. They have Mapbox gl. Which was a JavaScript client to visualize maps and they moved from, I forget which license they picked, but they moved to a much more restrictive license. I wonder what your thoughts are on something that releases as open source, but then becomes something maybe a little more muddy. [00:18:55] Brandon: Yeah, I think it totally makes sense because if you look at their business and their funding, it seems like for Mapbox, I haven't used it in a while, but my understanding is like a lot of their business now is car companies and doing in dash navigation. And that is probably way better of a business than trying to serve like people making maps of toilets. And I think sort of the beauty of it is that, so Mapbox, the story is they had a JavaScript renderer called Mapbox GL JS. And they changed that to a source available license a couple years ago. And there's a fork of it that I'm sort of involved in called MapLibre GL. But I think the cool part is Mapbox paid employees for years, probably millions of dollars in total to work on this thing and just gave it away for free. Right? So everyone can benefit from that work they did. It's not like that code went away, like once they changed the license. Well, the old version has been forked. It's going its own way now. It's quite different than the new version of Mapbox, but I think it's extremely generous that they're able to pay people for years, you know, like a competitive salary and just give that away. [00:20:10] Jeremy: Yeah, so we should maybe look at it as, it was a gift while it was open source, and they've given it to the community and they're on continuing on their own path, but at least the community running Map Libre, they can run with it, right? It's not like it just disappeared. [00:20:29] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. And that is something that I use for Protomaps quite extensively. Like it's the primary way of showing maps on the web and I've been trying to like work on some enhancements to it to have like better internationalization for if you are in like South Asia like not show languages correctly. So I think it is being taken in a new direction. And I think like sort of the combination of Protomaps and MapLibre, it addresses a lot of use cases, like I mentioned earlier with like these like hobby projects, indie projects that are almost certainly not interesting to someone like Mapbox or Google as a business. But I'm happy to support as a small business myself. Financially supporting open source work (GitHub sponsors, closed source, contracts) [00:21:12] Jeremy: In my previous interview with Tom, one of the main things he mentioned was that creating a mapping business is incredibly difficult, and he said he probably wouldn't do it again. So in your case, you're building Protomaps, which you've admitted is easy to self-host. So there's not a whole lot of incentive for people to pay you. How is that working out for you? How are you supporting yourself? [00:21:40] Brandon: There's a couple of strategies that I've tried and oftentimes failed at. Just to go down the list, so I do have GitHub sponsors so I do have a hosted version of Protomaps you can use if you don't want to bother copying a big file around. But the way I do the billing for that is through GitHub sponsors. If you wanted to use this thing I provide, then just be a sponsor. And that definitely pays for itself, like the cost of running it. And that's great. GitHub sponsors is so easy to set up. It just removes you having to deal with Stripe or something. 'cause a lot of people, their credit card information is already in GitHub. GitHub sponsors I think is awesome if you want to like cover costs for a project. But I think very few people are able to make that work. A thing that's like a salary job level. It's sort of like Twitch streaming, you know, there's a handful of people that are full-time streamers and then you look down the list on Twitch and it's like a lot of people that have like 10 viewers. But some of the other things I've tried, I actually started out, publishing the base map as a closed source thing, where I would sell sort of like a data package instead of being a SaaS, I'd be like, here's a one-time download, of the premium data and you can buy it. And quite a few people bought it I just priced it at like $500 for this thing. And I thought that was an interesting experiment. The main reason it's interesting is because the people that it attracts to you in terms of like, they're curious about your products, are all people willing to pay money. While if you start out everything being open source, then the people that are gonna be try to do it are only the people that want to get something for free. So what I discovered is actually like once you transition that thing from closed source to open source, a lot of the people that used to pay you money will still keep paying you money because like, it wasn't necessarily that that closed source thing was why they wanted to pay. They just valued that thought you've put into it your expertise, for example. So I think that is one thing, that I tried at the beginning was just start out, closed source proprietary, then make it open source. That's interesting to people. Like if you release something as open source, if you go the other way, like people are really mad if you start out with something open source and then later on you're like, oh, it's some other license. Then people are like that's so rotten. But I think doing it the other way, I think is quite valuable in terms of being able to find an audience. [00:24:29] Jeremy: And when you said it was closed source and paid to open source, do you still sell those map exports? [00:24:39] Brandon: I don't right now. It's something that I might do in the future, you know, like have small customizations of the data that are available, uh, for a fee. still like the core OpenStreetMap based map that's like a hundred gigs you can just download. And that'll always just be like a free download just because that's already out there. All the source code to build it is open source. So even if I said, oh, you have to pay for it, then someone else can just do it right? So there's no real reason like to make that like some sort of like paywall thing. But I think like overall if the project is gonna survive in the long term it's important that I'd ideally like to be able to like grow like a team like have a small group of people that can dedicate the time to growing the project in the long term. But I'm still like trying to figure that out right now. [00:25:34] Jeremy: And when you mentioned that when you went from closed to open and people were still paying you, you don't sell a product anymore. What were they paying for? [00:25:45] Brandon: So I have some contracts with companies basically, like if they need a feature or they need a customization in this way then I am very open to those. And I sort of set it up to make it clear from the beginning that this is not just a free thing on GitHub, this is something that you could pay for if you need help with it, if you need support, if you wanted it. I'm also a little cagey about the word support because I think like it sounds a little bit too wishy-washy. Pretty much like if you need access to the developers of an open source project, I think that's something that businesses are willing to pay for. And I think like making that clear to potential users is a challenge. But I think that is one way that you might be able to make like a living out of open source. [00:26:35] Jeremy: And I think you said you'd been working on it for about five years. Has that mostly been full time? [00:26:42] Brandon: It's been on and off. it's sort of my pandemic era project. But I've spent a lot of time, most of my time working on the open source project at this point. So I have done some things that were more just like I'm doing a customization or like a private deployment for some client. But that's been a minority of the time. Yeah. [00:27:03] Jeremy: It's still impressive to have an open source project that is easy to self-host and yet is still able to support you working on it full time. I think a lot of people might make the assumption that there's nothing to sell if something is, is easy to use. But this sort of sounds like a counterpoint to that. [00:27:25] Brandon: I think I'd like it to be. So when you come back to the point of like, it being easy to self-host. Well, so again, like I think about it as like a primitive of the web. Like for example, if you wanted to start a business today as like hosted CSS files, you know, like where you upload your CSS and then you get developers to pay you a monthly subscription for how many times they fetched a CSS file. Well, I think most developers would be like, that's stupid because it's just an open specification, you just upload a static file. And really my goal is to make Protomaps the same way where it's obvious that there's not really some sort of lock-in or some sort of secret sauce in the server that does this thing. How PMTiles works and building a primitive of the web [00:28:16] Brandon: If you look at video for example, like a lot of the tech for how Protomaps and PMTiles works is based on parts of the HTTP spec that were made for video. And 20 years ago, if you wanted to host a video on the web, you had to have like a real player license or flash. So you had to go license some server software from real media or from macromedia so you could stream video to a browser plugin. But now in HTML you can just embed a video file. And no one's like, oh well I need to go pay for my video serving license. I mean, there is such a thing, like YouTube doesn't really use that for DRM reasons, but people just have the assumption that video is like a primitive on the web. So if we're able to make maps sort of that same way like a primitive on the web then there isn't really some obvious business or licensing model behind how that works. Just because it's a thing and it helps a lot of people do their jobs and people are happy using it. So why bother? [00:29:26] Jeremy: You mentioned that it a tech that was used for streaming video. What tech specifically is it? [00:29:34] Brandon: So it is byte range serving. So when you open a video file on the web, So let's say it's like a 100 megabyte video. You don't have to download the entire video before it starts playing. It streams parts out of the file based on like what frames... I mean, it's based on the frames in the video. So it can start streaming immediately because it's organized in a way to where the first few frames are at the beginning. And what PMTiles really is, is it's just like a video but in space instead of time. So it's organized in a way where these zoomed out views are at the beginning and the most zoomed in views are at the end. So when you're like panning or zooming in the map all you're really doing is fetching byte ranges out of that file the same way as a video. But it's organized in, this tiled way on a space filling curve. IIt's a little bit complicated how it works internally and I think it's kind of cool but that's sort of an like an implementation detail. [00:30:35] Jeremy: And to the person deploying it, it just looks like a single file. [00:30:40] Brandon: Exactly in the same way like an mp3 audio file is or like a JSON file is. [00:30:47] Jeremy: So with a video, I can sort of see how as someone seeks through the video, they start at the beginning and then they go to the middle if they wanna see the middle. For a map, as somebody scrolls around the map, are you seeking all over the file or is the way it's structured have a little less chaos? [00:31:09] Brandon: It's structured. And that's kind of the main technical challenge behind building PMTiles is you have to be sort of clever so you're not spraying the reads everywhere. So it uses something called a hilbert curve, which is a mathematical concept of a space filling curve. Where it's one continuous curve that essentially lets you break 2D space into 1D space. So if you've seen some maps of IP space, it uses this crazy looking curve that hits all the points in one continuous line. And that's the same concept behind PMTiles is if you're looking at one part of the world, you're sort of guaranteed that all of those parts you're looking at are quite close to each other and the data you have to transfer is quite minimal, compared to if you just had it at random. [00:32:02] Jeremy: How big do the files get? If I have a PMTiles of the entire world, what kind of size am I looking at? [00:32:10] Brandon: Right now, the default one I distribute is 128 gigabytes, so it's quite sizable, although you can slice parts out of it remotely. So if you just wanted. if you just wanted California or just wanted LA or just wanted only a couple of zoom levels, like from zero to 10 instead of zero to 15, there is a command line tool that's also called PMTiles that lets you do that. Issues with CDNs and range queries [00:32:35] Jeremy: And when you're working with files of this size, I mean, let's say I am working with a CDN in front of my application. I'm not typically accustomed to hosting something that's that large and something that's where you're seeking all over the file. is that, ever an issue or is that something that's just taken care of by the browser and, and taken care of by, by the hosts? [00:32:58] Brandon: That is an issue actually, so a lot of CDNs don't deal with it correctly. And my recommendation is there is a kind of proxy server or like a serverless proxy thing that I wrote. That runs on like cloudflare workers or on Docker that lets you proxy those range requests into a normal URL and then that is like a hundred percent CDN compatible. So I would say like a lot of the big commercial installations of this thing, they use that because it makes more practical sense. It's also faster. But the idea is that this solution sort of scales up and scales down. If you wanted to host just your city in like a 10 megabyte file, well you can just put that into GitHub pages and you don't have to worry about it. If you want to have a global map for your website that serves a ton of traffic then you probably want a little bit more sophisticated of a solution. It still does not require you to run a Linux server, but it might require (you) to use like Lambda or Lambda in conjunction with like a CDN. [00:34:09] Jeremy: Yeah. And that sort of ties into what you were saying at the beginning where if you can host on something like CloudFlare Workers or Lambda, there's less time you have to spend keeping these things running. [00:34:26] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. and I think also the Lambda or CloudFlare workers solution is not perfect. It's not as perfect as S3 or as just static files, but in my experience, it still is better at building something that lasts on the time span of years than being like I have a server that is on this Ubuntu version and in four years there's all these like security patches that are not being applied. So it's still sort of serverless, although not totally vendor neutral like S3. Customizing the map [00:35:03] Jeremy: We've mostly been talking about how you host the map itself, but for someone who's not familiar with these kind of tools, how would they be customizing the map? [00:35:15] Brandon: For customizing the map there is front end style customization and there's also data customization. So for the front end if you wanted to change the water from the shade of blue to another shade of blue there is a TypeScript API where you can customize it almost like a text editor color scheme. So if you're able to name a bunch of colors, well you can customize the map in that way you can change the fonts. And that's all done using MapLibre GL using a TypeScript API on top of that for customizing the data. So all the pipeline to generate this data from OpenStreetMap is open source. There is a Java program using a library called PlanetTiler which is awesome, which is this super fast multi-core way of building map tiles. And right now there isn't really great hooks to customize what data goes into that. But that's something that I do wanna work on. And finally, because the data comes from OpenStreetMap if you notice data that's missing or you wanted to correct data in OSM then you can go into osm.org. You can get involved in contributing the data to OSM and the Protomaps build is daily. So if you make a change, then within 24 hours you should see the new base map. Have that change. And of course for OSM your improvements would go into every OSM based project that is ingesting that data. So it's not a protomap specific thing. It's like this big shared data source, almost like Wikipedia. OpenStreetMap is a dataset and not a map [00:37:01] Jeremy: I think you were involved with OpenStreetMap to some extent. Can you speak a little bit to that for people who aren't familiar, what OpenStreetMap is? [00:37:11] Brandon: Right. So I've been using OSM as sort of like a tools developer for over a decade now. And one of the number one questions I get from developers about what is Protomaps is why wouldn't I just use OpenStreetMap? What's the distinction between Protomaps and OpenStreetMap? And it's sort of like this funny thing because even though OSM has map in the name it's not really a map in that you can't... In that it's mostly a data set and not a map. It does have a map that you can see that you can pan around to when you go to the website but the way that thing they show you on the website is built is not really that easily reproducible. It involves a lot of c++ software you have to run. But OpenStreetMap itself, the heart of it is almost like a big XML file that has all the data in the map and global. And it has tagged features for example. So you can go in and edit that. It has a web front end to change the data. It does not directly translate into making a map actually. Protomaps decides what shows at each zoom level [00:38:24] Brandon: So a lot of the pipeline, that Java program I mentioned for building this basemap for protomaps is doing things like you have to choose what data you show when you zoom out. You can't show all the data. For example when you're zoomed out and you're looking at all of a state like Colorado you don't see all the Chipotle when you're zoomed all the way out. That'd be weird, right? So you have to make some sort of decision in logic that says this data only shows up at this zoom level. And that's really what is the challenge in optimizing the size of that for the Protomaps map project. [00:39:03] Jeremy: Oh, so those decisions of what to show at different Zoom levels those are decisions made by you when you're creating the PMTiles file with Protomaps. [00:39:14] Brandon: Exactly. It's part of the base maps build pipeline. and those are honestly very subjective decisions. Who really decides when you're zoomed out should this hospital show up or should this museum show up nowadays in Google, I think it shows you ads. Like if someone pays for their car repair shop to show up when you're zoomed out like that that gets surfaced. But because there is no advertising auction in Protomaps that doesn't happen obviously. So we have to sort of make some reasonable choice. A lot of that right now in Protomaps actually comes from another open source project called Mapzen. So Mapzen was a company that went outta business a couple years ago. They did a lot of this work in designing which data shows up at which Zoom level and open sourced it. And then when they shut down, they transferred that code into the Linux Foundation. So it's this totally open source project, that like, again, sort of like Mapbox gl has this awesome legacy in that this company funded it for years for smart people to work on it and now it's just like a free thing you can use. So the logic in Protomaps is really based on mapzen. [00:40:33] Jeremy: And so the visualization of all this... I think I understand what you mean when people say oh, why not use OpenStreetMaps because it's not really clear it's hard to tell is this the tool that's visualizing the data? Is it the data itself? So in the case of using Protomaps, it sounds like Protomaps itself has all of the data from OpenStreetMap and then it has made all the decisions for you in terms of what to show at different Zoom levels and what things to have on the map at all. And then finally, you have to have a separate, UI layer and in this case, it sounds like the one that you recommend is the Map Libre library. [00:41:18] Brandon: Yeah, that's exactly right. For Protomaps, it has a portion or a subset of OSM data. It doesn't have all of it just because there's too much, like there's data in there. people have mapped out different bushes and I don't include that in Protomaps if you wanted to go in and edit like the Java code to add that you can. But really what Protomaps is positioned at is sort of a solution for developers that want to use OSM data to make a map on their app or their website. because OpenStreetMap itself is mostly a data set, it does not really go all the way to having an end-to-end solution. Financials and the idea of a project being complete [00:41:59] Jeremy: So I think it's great that somebody who wants to make a map, they have these tools available, whether it's from what was originally built by Mapbox, what's built by Open StreetMap now, the work you're doing with Protomaps. But I wonder one of the things that I talked about with Tom was he was saying he was trying to build this mapping business and based on the financials of what was coming in he was stressed, right? He was struggling a bit. And I wonder for you, you've been working on this open source project for five years. Do you have similar stressors or do you feel like I could keep going how things are now and I feel comfortable? [00:42:46] Brandon: So I wouldn't say I'm a hundred percent in one bucket or the other. I'm still seeing it play out. One thing, that I really respect in a lot of open source projects, which I'm not saying I'm gonna do for Protomaps is the idea that a project is like finished. I think that is amazing. If a software project can just be done it's sort of like a painting or a novel once you write, finish the last page, have it seen by the editor. I send it off to the press is you're done with a book. And I think one of the pains of software is so few of us can actually do that. And I don't know obviously people will say oh the map is never finished. That's more true of OSM, but I think like for Protomaps. One thing I'm thinking about is how to limit the scope to something that's quite narrow to where we could be feature complete on the core things in the near term timeframe. That means that it does not address a lot of things that people want. Like search, like if you go to Google Maps and you search for a restaurant, you will get some hits. that's like a geocoding issue. And I've already decided that's totally outta scope for Protomaps. So, in terms of trying to think about the future of this, I'm mostly looking for ways to cut scope if possible. There are some things like better tooling around being able to work with PMTiles that are on the roadmap. but for me, I am still enjoying working on the project. It's definitely growing. So I can see on NPM downloads I can see the growth curve of people using it and that's really cool. So I like hearing about when people are using it for cool projects. So it seems to still be going okay for now. [00:44:44] Jeremy: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective about how you were talking about projects being done. Because I think when people look at GitHub projects and they go like, oh, the last commit was X months ago. They go oh well this is dead right? But maybe that's the wrong framing. Maybe you can get a project to a point where it's like, oh, it's because it doesn't need to be updated. [00:45:07] Brandon: Exactly, yeah. Like I used to do a lot of c++ programming and the best part is when you see some LAPACK matrix math library from like 1995 that still works perfectly in c++ and you're like, this is awesome. This is the one I have to use. But if you're like trying to use some like React component library and it hasn't been updated in like a year, you're like, oh, that's a problem. So again, I think there's some middle ground between those that I'm trying to find. I do like for Protomaps, it's quite dependency light in terms of the number of hard dependencies I have in software. but I do still feel like there is a lot of work to be done in terms of project scope that needs to have stuff added. You mostly only hear about problems instead of people's wins [00:45:54] Jeremy: Having run it for this long. Do you have any thoughts on running an open source project in general? On dealing with issues or managing what to work on things like that? [00:46:07] Brandon: Yeah. So I have a lot. I think one thing people point out a lot is that especially because I don't have a direct relationship with a lot of the people using it a lot of times I don't even know that they're using it. Someone sent me a message saying hey, have you seen flickr.com, like the photo site? And I'm like, no. And I went to flickr.com/map and it has Protomaps for it. And I'm like, I had no idea. But that's cool, if they're able to use Protomaps for this giant photo sharing site that's awesome. But that also means I don't really hear about when people use it successfully because you just don't know, I guess they, NPM installed it and it works perfectly and you never hear about it. You only hear about people's negative experiences. You only hear about people that come and open GitHub issues saying this is totally broken, and why doesn't this thing exist? And I'm like, well, it's because there's an infinite amount of things that I want to do, but I have a finite amount of time and I just haven't gone into that yet. And that's honestly a lot of the things and people are like when is this thing gonna be done? So that's, that's honestly part of why I don't have a public roadmap because I want to avoid that sort of bickering about it. I would say that's one of my biggest frustrations with running an open source project is how it's self-selected to only hear the negative experiences with it. Be careful what PRs you accept [00:47:32] Brandon: 'cause you don't hear about those times where it works. I'd say another thing is it's changed my perspective on contributing to open source because I think when I was younger or before I had become a maintainer I would open a pull request on a project unprompted that has a hundred lines and I'd be like, Hey, just merge this thing. But I didn't realize when I was younger well if I just merge it and I disappear, then the maintainer is stuck with what I did forever. You know if I add some feature then that person that maintains the project has to do that indefinitely. And I think that's very asymmetrical and it's changed my perspective a lot on accepting open source contributions. I wanna have it be open to anyone to contribute. But there is some amount of back and forth where it's almost like the default answer for should I accept a PR is no by default because you're the one maintaining it. And do you understand the shape of that solution completely to where you're going to support it for years because the person that's contributing it is not bound to those same obligations that you are. And I think that's also one of the things where I have a lot of trepidation around open source is I used to think of it as a lot more bazaar-like in terms of anyone can just throw their thing in. But then that creates a lot of problems for the people who are expected out of social obligation to continue this thing indefinitely. [00:49:23] Jeremy: Yeah, I can totally see why that causes burnout with a lot of open source maintainers, because you probably to some extent maybe even feel some guilt right? You're like, well, somebody took the time to make this. But then like you said you have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out is this something I wanna maintain long term? And one wrong move and it's like, well, it's in here now. [00:49:53] Brandon: Exactly. To me, I think that is a very common failure mode for open source projects is they're too liberal in the things they accept. And that's a lot of why I was talking about how that choice of what features show up on the map was inherited from the MapZen projects. If I didn't have that then somebody could come in and say hey, you know, I want to show power lines on the map. And they open a PR for power lines and now everybody who's using Protomaps when they're like zoomed out they see power lines are like I didn't want that. So I think that's part of why a lot of open source projects eventually evolve into a plugin system is because there is this demand as the project grows for more and more features. But there is a limit in the maintainers. It's like the demand for features is exponential while the maintainer amount of time and effort is linear. Plugin systems might reduce need for PRs [00:50:56] Brandon: So maybe the solution to smash that exponential down to quadratic maybe is to add a plugin system. But I think that is one of the biggest tensions that only became obvious to me after working on this for a couple of years. [00:51:14] Jeremy: Is that something you're considering doing now? [00:51:18] Brandon: Is the plugin system? Yeah. I think for the data customization, I eventually wanted to have some sort of programmatic API to where you could declare a config file that says I want ski routes. It totally makes sense. The power lines example is maybe a little bit obscure but for example like a skiing app and you want to be able to show ski slopes when you're zoomed out well you're not gonna be able to get that from Mapbox or from Google because they have a one size fits all map that's not specialized to skiing or to golfing or to outdoors. But if you like, in theory, you could do this with Protomaps if you changed the Java code to show data at different zoom levels. And that is to me what makes the most sense for a plugin system and also makes the most product sense because it enables a lot of things you cannot do with the one size fits all map. [00:52:20] Jeremy: It might also increase the complexity of the implementation though, right? [00:52:25] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. So that's like. That's really where a lot of the terrifying thoughts come in, which is like once you create this like config file surface area, well what does that look like? Is that JSON? Is that TOML, is that some weird like everything eventually evolves into some scripting language right? Where you have logic inside of your templates and I honestly do not really know what that looks like right now. That feels like something in the medium term roadmap. [00:52:58] Jeremy: Yeah and then in terms of bug reports or issues, now it's not just your code it's this exponential combination of whatever people put into these config files. [00:53:09] Brandon: Exactly. Yeah. so again, like I really respect the projects that have done this well or that have done plugins well. I'm trying to think of some, I think obsidian has plugins, for example. And that seems to be one of the few solutions to try and satisfy the infinite desire for features with the limited amount of maintainer time. Time split between code vs triage vs talking to users [00:53:36] Jeremy: How would you say your time is split between working on the code versus issue and PR triage? [00:53:43] Brandon: Oh, it varies really. I think working on the code is like a minority of it. I think something that I actually enjoy is talking to people, talking to users, getting feedback on it. I go to quite a few conferences to talk to developers or people that are interested and figure out how to refine the message, how to make it clearer to people, like what this is for. And I would say maybe a plurality of my time is spent dealing with non-technical things that are neither code or GitHub issues. One thing I've been trying to do recently is talk to people that are not really in the mapping space. For example, people that work for newspapers like a lot of them are front end developers and if you ask them to run a Linux server they're like I have no idea. But that really is like one of the best target audiences for Protomaps. So I'd say a lot of the reality of running an open source project is a lot like a business is it has all the same challenges as a business in terms of you have to figure out what is the thing you're offering. You have to deal with people using it. You have to deal with feedback, you have to deal with managing emails and stuff. I don't think the payoff is anywhere near running a business or a startup that's backed by VC money is but it's definitely not the case that if you just want to code, you should start an open source project because I think a lot of the work for an opensource project has nothing to do with just writing the code. It is in my opinion as someone having done a VC backed business before, it is a lot more similar to running, a tech company than just putting some code on GitHub. Running a startup vs open source project [00:55:43] Jeremy: Well, since you've done both at a high level what did you like about running the company versus maintaining the open source project? [00:55:52] Brandon: So I have done some venture capital accelerator programs before and I think there is an element of hype and energy that you get from that that is self perpetuating. Your co-founder is gungho on like, yeah, we're gonna do this thing. And your investors are like, you guys are geniuses. You guys are gonna make a killing doing this thing. And the way it's framed is sort of obvious to everyone that it's like there's a much more traditional set of motivations behind that, that people understand while it's definitely not the case for running an open source project. Sometimes you just wake up and you're like what the hell is this thing for, it is this thing you spend a lot of time on. You don't even know who's using it. The people that use it and make a bunch of money off of it they know nothing about it. And you know, it's just like cool. And then you only hear from people that are complaining about it. And I think like that's honestly discouraging compared to the more clear energy and clearer motivation and vision behind how most people think about a company. But what I like about the open source project is just the lack of those constraints you know? Where you have a mandate that you need to have this many customers that are paying by this amount of time. There's that sort of pressure on delivering a business result instead of just making something that you're proud of that's simple to use and has like an elegant design. I think that's really a difference in motivation as well. Having control [00:57:50] Jeremy: Do you feel like you have more control? Like you mentioned how you've decided I'm not gonna make a public roadmap. I'm the sole developer. I get to decide what goes in. What doesn't. Do you feel like you have more control in your current position than you did running the startup? [00:58:10] Brandon: Definitely for sure. Like that agency is what I value the most. It is possible to go too far. Like, so I'm very wary of the BDFL title, which I think is how a lot of open source projects succeed. But I think there is some element of for a project to succeed there has to be somebody that makes those decisions. Sometimes those decisions will be wrong and then hopefully they can be rectified. But I think going back to what I was talking about with scope, I think the overall vision and the scope of the project is something that I am very opinionated about in that it should do these things. It shouldn't do these things. It should be easy to use for this audience. Is it gonna be appealing to this other audience? I don't know. And I think that is really one of the most important parts of that leadership role, is having the power to decide we're doing this, we're not doing this. I would hope other developers would be able to get on board if they're able to make good use of the project, if they use it for their company, if they use it for their business, if they just think the project is cool. So there are other contributors at this point and I want to get more involved. But I think being able to make those decisions to what I believe is going to be the best project is something that is very special about open source, that isn't necessarily true about running like a SaaS business. [00:59:50] Jeremy: I think that's a good spot to end it on, so if people want to learn more about Protomaps or they wanna see what you're up to, where should they head? [01:00:00] Brandon: So you can go to Protomaps.com, GitHub, or you can find me or Protomaps on bluesky or Mastodon. [01:00:09] Jeremy: All right, Brandon, thank you so much for chatting today. [01:00:12] Brandon: Great. Thank you very much.

What can GitHub Copilot do for SysAdmins in 2025? Richard talks to Jessica Deen from GitHub about her experiences using Copilot for her work. Jessica talks about Copilot being the first stop for most tasks - describing the task to Copilot helps you think through the problem, and often the tool can generate code or information to get that task done fast. Today's GitHub Copilot can handle everything from explaining existing code to writing something new, debugging a problem, or even writing documentation!LinksGitHub CopilotChanging the AI Model for Copilot ChatVisual Studio Code InsidersAzure ExtensionsGitHub SparkLaunch DarklyRecorded March 13, 2025

If you're in SF: Join us for the Claude Plays Pokemon hackathon this Sunday!If you're not: Fill out the 2025 State of AI Eng survey for $250 in Amazon cards!We are SO excited to share our conversation with Dharmesh Shah, co-founder of HubSpot and creator of Agent.ai.A particularly compelling concept we discussed is the idea of "hybrid teams" - the next evolution in workplace organization where human workers collaborate with AI agents as team members. Just as we previously saw hybrid teams emerge in terms of full-time vs. contract workers, or in-office vs. remote workers, Dharmesh predicts that the next frontier will be teams composed of both human and AI members. This raises interesting questions about team dynamics, trust, and how to effectively delegate tasks between human and AI team members.The discussion of business models in AI reveals an important distinction between Work as a Service (WaaS) and Results as a Service (RaaS), something Dharmesh has written extensively about. While RaaS has gained popularity, particularly in customer support applications where outcomes are easily measurable, Dharmesh argues that this model may be over-indexed. Not all AI applications have clearly definable outcomes or consistent economic value per transaction, making WaaS more appropriate in many cases. This insight is particularly relevant for businesses considering how to monetize AI capabilities.The technical challenges of implementing effective agent systems are also explored, particularly around memory and authentication. Shah emphasizes the importance of cross-agent memory sharing and the need for more granular control over data access. He envisions a future where users can selectively share parts of their data with different agents, similar to how OAuth works but with much finer control. This points to significant opportunities in developing infrastructure for secure and efficient agent-to-agent communication and data sharing.Other highlights from our conversation* The Evolution of AI-Powered Agents – Exploring how AI agents have evolved from simple chatbots to sophisticated multi-agent systems, and the role of MCPs in enabling that.* Hybrid Digital Teams and the Future of Work – How AI agents are becoming teammates rather than just tools, and what this means for business operations and knowledge work.* Memory in AI Agents – The importance of persistent memory in AI systems and how shared memory across agents could enhance collaboration and efficiency.* Business Models for AI Agents – Exploring the shift from software as a service (SaaS) to work as a service (WaaS) and results as a service (RaaS), and what this means for monetization.* The Role of Standards Like MCP – Why MCP has been widely adopted and how it enables agent collaboration, tool use, and discovery.* The Future of AI Code Generation and Software Engineering – How AI-assisted coding is changing the role of software engineers and what skills will matter most in the future.* Domain Investing and Efficient Markets – Dharmesh's approach to domain investing and how inefficiencies in digital asset markets create business opportunities.* The Philosophy of Saying No – Lessons from "Sorry, You Must Pass" and how prioritization leads to greater productivity and focus.Timestamps* 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome* 02:29 Dharmesh Shah's Journey into AI* 05:22 Defining AI Agents* 06:45 The Evolution and Future of AI Agents* 13:53 Graph Theory and Knowledge Representation* 20:02 Engineering Practices and Overengineering* 25:57 The Role of Junior Engineers in the AI Era* 28:20 Multi-Agent Systems and MCP Standards* 35:55 LinkedIn's Legal Battles and Data Scraping* 37:32 The Future of AI and Hybrid Teams* 39:19 Building Agent AI: A Professional Network for Agents* 40:43 Challenges and Innovations in Agent AI* 45:02 The Evolution of UI in AI Systems* 01:00:25 Business Models: Work as a Service vs. Results as a Service* 01:09:17 The Future Value of Engineers* 01:09:51 Exploring the Role of Agents* 01:10:28 The Importance of Memory in AI* 01:11:02 Challenges and Opportunities in AI Memory* 01:12:41 Selective Memory and Privacy Concerns* 01:13:27 The Evolution of AI Tools and Platforms* 01:18:23 Domain Names and AI Projects* 01:32:08 Balancing Work and Personal Life* 01:35:52 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Small AI.swyx [00:00:12]: Hello, and today we're super excited to have Dharmesh Shah to join us. I guess your relevant title here is founder of Agent AI.Dharmesh [00:00:20]: Yeah, that's true for this. Yeah, creator of Agent.ai and co-founder of HubSpot.swyx [00:00:25]: Co-founder of HubSpot, which I followed for many years, I think 18 years now, gonna be 19 soon. And you caught, you know, people can catch up on your HubSpot story elsewhere. I should also thank Sean Puri, who I've chatted with back and forth, who's been, I guess, getting me in touch with your people. But also, I think like, just giving us a lot of context, because obviously, My First Million joined you guys, and they've been chatting with you guys a lot. So for the business side, we can talk about that, but I kind of wanted to engage your CTO, agent, engineer side of things. So how did you get agent religion?Dharmesh [00:01:00]: Let's see. So I've been working, I'll take like a half step back, a decade or so ago, even though actually more than that. So even before HubSpot, the company I was contemplating that I had named for was called Ingenisoft. And the idea behind Ingenisoft was a natural language interface to business software. Now realize this is 20 years ago, so that was a hard thing to do. But the actual use case that I had in mind was, you know, we had data sitting in business systems like a CRM or something like that. And my kind of what I thought clever at the time. Oh, what if we used email as the kind of interface to get to business software? And the motivation for using email is that it automatically works when you're offline. So imagine I'm getting on a plane or I'm on a plane. There was no internet on planes back then. It's like, oh, I'm going through business cards from an event I went to. I can just type things into an email just to have them all in the backlog. When it reconnects, it sends those emails to a processor that basically kind of parses effectively the commands and updates the software, sends you the file, whatever it is. And there was a handful of commands. I was a little bit ahead of the times in terms of what was actually possible. And I reattempted this natural language thing with a product called ChatSpot that I did back 20...swyx [00:02:12]: Yeah, this is your first post-ChatGPT project.Dharmesh [00:02:14]: I saw it come out. Yeah. And so I've always been kind of fascinated by this natural language interface to software. Because, you know, as software developers, myself included, we've always said, oh, we build intuitive, easy-to-use applications. And it's not intuitive at all, right? Because what we're doing is... We're taking the mental model that's in our head of what we're trying to accomplish with said piece of software and translating that into a series of touches and swipes and clicks and things like that. And there's nothing natural or intuitive about it. And so natural language interfaces, for the first time, you know, whatever the thought is you have in your head and expressed in whatever language that you normally use to talk to yourself in your head, you can just sort of emit that and have software do something. And I thought that was kind of a breakthrough, which it has been. And it's gone. So that's where I first started getting into the journey. I started because now it actually works, right? So once we got ChatGPT and you can take, even with a few-shot example, convert something into structured, even back in the ChatGP 3.5 days, it did a decent job in a few-shot example, convert something to structured text if you knew what kinds of intents you were going to have. And so that happened. And that ultimately became a HubSpot project. But then agents intrigued me because I'm like, okay, well, that's the next step here. So chat's great. Love Chat UX. But if we want to do something even more meaningful, it felt like the next kind of advancement is not this kind of, I'm chatting with some software in a kind of a synchronous back and forth model, is that software is going to do things for me in kind of a multi-step way to try and accomplish some goals. So, yeah, that's when I first got started. It's like, okay, what would that look like? Yeah. And I've been obsessed ever since, by the way.Alessio [00:03:55]: Which goes back to your first experience with it, which is like you're offline. Yeah. And you want to do a task. You don't need to do it right now. You just want to queue it up for somebody to do it for you. Yes. As you think about agents, like, let's start at the easy question, which is like, how do you define an agent? Maybe. You mean the hardest question in the universe? Is that what you mean?Dharmesh [00:04:12]: You said you have an irritating take. I do have an irritating take. I think, well, some number of people have been irritated, including within my own team. So I have a very broad definition for agents, which is it's AI-powered software that accomplishes a goal. Period. That's it. And what irritates people about it is like, well, that's so broad as to be completely non-useful. And I understand that. I understand the criticism. But in my mind, if you kind of fast forward months, I guess, in AI years, the implementation of it, and we're already starting to see this, and we'll talk about this, different kinds of agents, right? So I think in addition to having a usable definition, and I like yours, by the way, and we should talk more about that, that you just came out with, the classification of agents actually is also useful, which is, is it autonomous or non-autonomous? Does it have a deterministic workflow? Does it have a non-deterministic workflow? Is it working synchronously? Is it working asynchronously? Then you have the different kind of interaction modes. Is it a chat agent, kind of like a customer support agent would be? You're having this kind of back and forth. Is it a workflow agent that just does a discrete number of steps? So there's all these different flavors of agents. So if I were to draw it in a Venn diagram, I would draw a big circle that says, this is agents, and then I have a bunch of circles, some overlapping, because they're not mutually exclusive. And so I think that's what's interesting, and we're seeing development along a bunch of different paths, right? So if you look at the first implementation of agent frameworks, you look at Baby AGI and AutoGBT, I think it was, not Autogen, that's the Microsoft one. They were way ahead of their time because they assumed this level of reasoning and execution and planning capability that just did not exist, right? So it was an interesting thought experiment, which is what it was. Even the guy that, I'm an investor in Yohei's fund that did Baby AGI. It wasn't ready, but it was a sign of what was to come. And so the question then is, when is it ready? And so lots of people talk about the state of the art when it comes to agents. I'm a pragmatist, so I think of the state of the practical. It's like, okay, well, what can I actually build that has commercial value or solves actually some discrete problem with some baseline of repeatability or verifiability?swyx [00:06:22]: There was a lot, and very, very interesting. I'm not irritated by it at all. Okay. As you know, I take a... There's a lot of anthropological view or linguistics view. And in linguistics, you don't want to be prescriptive. You want to be descriptive. Yeah. So you're a goals guy. That's the key word in your thing. And other people have other definitions that might involve like delegated trust or non-deterministic work, LLM in the loop, all that stuff. The other thing I was thinking about, just the comment on Baby AGI, LGBT. Yeah. In that piece that you just read, I was able to go through our backlog and just kind of track the winter of agents and then the summer now. Yeah. And it's... We can tell the whole story as an oral history, just following that thread. And it's really just like, I think, I tried to explain the why now, right? Like I had, there's better models, of course. There's better tool use with like, they're just more reliable. Yep. Better tools with MCP and all that stuff. And I'm sure you have opinions on that too. Business model shift, which you like a lot. I just heard you talk about RAS with MFM guys. Yep. Cost is dropping a lot. Yep. Inference is getting faster. There's more model diversity. Yep. Yep. I think it's a subtle point. It means that like, you have different models with different perspectives. You don't get stuck in the basin of performance of a single model. Sure. You can just get out of it by just switching models. Yep. Multi-agent research and RL fine tuning. So I just wanted to let you respond to like any of that.Dharmesh [00:07:44]: Yeah. A couple of things. Connecting the dots on the kind of the definition side of it. So we'll get the irritation out of the way completely. I have one more, even more irritating leap on the agent definition thing. So here's the way I think about it. By the way, the kind of word agent, I looked it up, like the English dictionary definition. The old school agent, yeah. Is when you have someone or something that does something on your behalf, like a travel agent or a real estate agent acts on your behalf. It's like proxy, which is a nice kind of general definition. So the other direction I'm sort of headed, and it's going to tie back to tool calling and MCP and things like that, is if you, and I'm not a biologist by any stretch of the imagination, but we have these single-celled organisms, right? Like the simplest possible form of what one would call life. But it's still life. It just happens to be single-celled. And then you can combine cells and then cells become specialized over time. And you have much more sophisticated organisms, you know, kind of further down the spectrum. In my mind, at the most fundamental level, you can almost think of having atomic agents. What is the simplest possible thing that's an agent that can still be called an agent? What is the equivalent of a kind of single-celled organism? And the reason I think that's useful is right now we're headed down the road, which I think is very exciting around tool use, right? That says, okay, the LLMs now can be provided a set of tools that it calls to accomplish whatever it needs to accomplish in the kind of furtherance of whatever goal it's trying to get done. And I'm not overly bothered by it, but if you think about it, if you just squint a little bit and say, well, what if everything was an agent? And what if tools were actually just atomic agents? Because then it's turtles all the way down, right? Then it's like, oh, well, all that's really happening with tool use is that we have a network of agents that know about each other through something like an MMCP and can kind of decompose a particular problem and say, oh, I'm going to delegate this to this set of agents. And why do we need to draw this distinction between tools, which are functions most of the time? And an actual agent. And so I'm going to write this irritating LinkedIn post, you know, proposing this. It's like, okay. And I'm not suggesting we should call even functions, you know, call them agents. But there is a certain amount of elegance that happens when you say, oh, we can just reduce it down to one primitive, which is an agent that you can combine in complicated ways to kind of raise the level of abstraction and accomplish higher order goals. Anyway, that's my answer. I'd say that's a success. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk on agent definitions.Alessio [00:09:54]: How do you define the minimum viable agent? Do you already have a definition for, like, where you draw the line between a cell and an atom? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:10:02]: So in my mind, it has to, at some level, use AI in order for it to—otherwise, it's just software. It's like, you know, we don't need another word for that. And so that's probably where I draw the line. So then the question, you know, the counterargument would be, well, if that's true, then lots of tools themselves are actually not agents because they're just doing a database call or a REST API call or whatever it is they're doing. And that does not necessarily qualify them, which is a fair counterargument. And I accept that. It's like a good argument. I still like to think about—because we'll talk about multi-agent systems, because I think—so we've accepted, which I think is true, lots of people have said it, and you've hopefully combined some of those clips of really smart people saying this is the year of agents, and I completely agree, it is the year of agents. But then shortly after that, it's going to be the year of multi-agent systems or multi-agent networks. I think that's where it's going to be headed next year. Yeah.swyx [00:10:54]: Opening eyes already on that. Yeah. My quick philosophical engagement with you on this. I often think about kind of the other spectrum, the other end of the cell spectrum. So single cell is life, multi-cell is life, and you clump a bunch of cells together in a more complex organism, they become organs, like an eye and a liver or whatever. And then obviously we consider ourselves one life form. There's not like a lot of lives within me. I'm just one life. And now, obviously, I don't think people don't really like to anthropomorphize agents and AI. Yeah. But we are extending our consciousness and our brain and our functionality out into machines. I just saw you were a Bee. Yeah. Which is, you know, it's nice. I have a limitless pendant in my pocket.Dharmesh [00:11:37]: I got one of these boys. Yeah.swyx [00:11:39]: I'm testing it all out. You know, got to be early adopters. But like, we want to extend our personal memory into these things so that we can be good at the things that we're good at. And, you know, machines are good at it. Machines are there. So like, my definition of life is kind of like going outside of my own body now. I don't know if you've ever had like reflections on that. Like how yours. How our self is like actually being distributed outside of you. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:12:01]: I don't fancy myself a philosopher. But you went there. So yeah, I did go there. I'm fascinated by kind of graphs and graph theory and networks and have been for a long, long time. And to me, we're sort of all nodes in this kind of larger thing. It just so happens that we're looking at individual kind of life forms as they exist right now. But so the idea is when you put a podcast out there, there's these little kind of nodes you're putting out there of like, you know, conceptual ideas. Once again, you have varying kind of forms of those little nodes that are up there and are connected in varying and sundry ways. And so I just think of myself as being a node in a massive, massive network. And I'm producing more nodes as I put content or ideas. And, you know, you spend some portion of your life collecting dots, experiences, people, and some portion of your life then connecting dots from the ones that you've collected over time. And I found that really interesting things happen and you really can't know in advance how those dots are necessarily going to connect in the future. And that's, yeah. So that's my philosophical take. That's the, yes, exactly. Coming back.Alessio [00:13:04]: Yep. Do you like graph as an agent? Abstraction? That's been one of the hot topics with LandGraph and Pydantic and all that.Dharmesh [00:13:11]: I do. The thing I'm more interested in terms of use of graphs, and there's lots of work happening on that now, is graph data stores as an alternative in terms of knowledge stores and knowledge graphs. Yeah. Because, you know, so I've been in software now 30 plus years, right? So it's not 10,000 hours. It's like 100,000 hours that I've spent doing this stuff. And so I've grew up with, so back in the day, you know, I started on mainframes. There was a product called IMS from IBM, which is basically an index database, what we'd call like a key value store today. Then we've had relational databases, right? We have tables and columns and foreign key relationships. We all know that. We have document databases like MongoDB, which is sort of a nested structure keyed by a specific index. We have vector stores, vector embedding database. And graphs are interesting for a couple of reasons. One is, so it's not classically structured in a relational way. When you say structured database, to most people, they're thinking tables and columns and in relational database and set theory and all that. Graphs still have structure, but it's not the tables and columns structure. And you could wonder, and people have made this case, that they are a better representation of knowledge for LLMs and for AI generally than other things. So that's kind of thing number one conceptually, and that might be true, I think is possibly true. And the other thing that I really like about that in the context of, you know, I've been in the context of data stores for RAG is, you know, RAG, you say, oh, I have a million documents, I'm going to build the vector embeddings, I'm going to come back with the top X based on the semantic match, and that's fine. All that's very, very useful. But the reality is something gets lost in the chunking process and the, okay, well, those tend, you know, like, you don't really get the whole picture, so to speak, and maybe not even the right set of dimensions on the kind of broader picture. And it makes intuitive sense to me that if we did capture it properly in a graph form, that maybe that feeding into a RAG pipeline will actually yield better results for some use cases, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:15:03]: And do you feel like at the core of it, there's this difference between imperative and declarative programs? Because if you think about HubSpot, it's like, you know, people and graph kind of goes hand in hand, you know, but I think maybe the software before was more like primary foreign key based relationship, versus now the models can traverse through the graph more easily.Dharmesh [00:15:22]: Yes. So I like that representation. There's something. It's just conceptually elegant about graphs and just from the representation of it, they're much more discoverable, you can kind of see it, there's observability to it, versus kind of embeddings, which you can't really do much with as a human. You know, once they're in there, you can't pull stuff back out. But yeah, I like that kind of idea of it. And the other thing that's kind of, because I love graphs, I've been long obsessed with PageRank from back in the early days. And, you know, one of the kind of simplest algorithms in terms of coming up, you know, with a phone, everyone's been exposed to PageRank. And the idea is that, and so I had this other idea for a project, not a company, and I have hundreds of these, called NodeRank, is to be able to take the idea of PageRank and apply it to an arbitrary graph that says, okay, I'm going to define what authority looks like and say, okay, well, that's interesting to me, because then if you say, I'm going to take my knowledge store, and maybe this person that contributed some number of chunks to the graph data store has more authority on this particular use case or prompt that's being submitted than this other one that may, or maybe this one was more. popular, or maybe this one has, whatever it is, there should be a way for us to kind of rank nodes in a graph and sort them in some, some useful way. Yeah.swyx [00:16:34]: So I think that's generally useful for, for anything. I think the, the problem, like, so even though at my conferences, GraphRag is super popular and people are getting knowledge, graph religion, and I will say like, it's getting space, getting traction in two areas, conversation memory, and then also just rag in general, like the, the, the document data. Yeah. It's like a source. Most ML practitioners would say that knowledge graph is kind of like a dirty word. The graph database, people get graph religion, everything's a graph, and then they, they go really hard into it and then they get a, they get a graph that is too complex to navigate. Yes. And so like the, the, the simple way to put it is like you at running HubSpot, you know, the power of graphs, the way that Google has pitched them for many years, but I don't suspect that HubSpot itself uses a knowledge graph. No. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:17:26]: So when is it over engineering? Basically? It's a great question. I don't know. So the question now, like in AI land, right, is the, do we necessarily need to understand? So right now, LLMs for, for the most part are somewhat black boxes, right? We sort of understand how the, you know, the algorithm itself works, but we really don't know what's going on in there and, and how things come out. So if a graph data store is able to produce the outcomes we want, it's like, here's a set of queries I want to be able to submit and then it comes out with useful content. Maybe the underlying data store is as opaque as a vector embeddings or something like that, but maybe it's fine. Maybe we don't necessarily need to understand it to get utility out of it. And so maybe if it's messy, that's okay. Um, that's, it's just another form of lossy compression. Uh, it's just lossy in a way that we just don't completely understand in terms of, because it's going to grow organically. Uh, and it's not structured. It's like, ah, we're just gonna throw a bunch of stuff in there. Let the, the equivalent of the embedding algorithm, whatever they called in graph land. Um, so the one with the best results wins. I think so. Yeah.swyx [00:18:26]: Or is this the practical side of me is like, yeah, it's, if it's useful, we don't necessarilyDharmesh [00:18:30]: need to understand it.swyx [00:18:30]: I have, I mean, I'm happy to push back as long as you want. Uh, it's not practical to evaluate like the 10 different options out there because it takes time. It takes people, it takes, you know, resources, right? Set. That's the first thing. Second thing is your evals are typically on small things and some things only work at scale. Yup. Like graphs. Yup.Dharmesh [00:18:46]: Yup. That's, yeah, no, that's fair. And I think this is one of the challenges in terms of implementation of graph databases is that the most common approach that I've seen developers do, I've done it myself, is that, oh, I've got a Postgres database or a MySQL or whatever. I can represent a graph with a very set of tables with a parent child thing or whatever. And that sort of gives me the ability, uh, why would I need anything more than that? And the answer is, well, if you don't need anything more than that, you don't need anything more than that. But there's a high chance that you're sort of missing out on the actual value that, uh, the graph representation gives you. Which is the ability to traverse the graph, uh, efficiently in ways that kind of going through the, uh, traversal in a relational database form, even though structurally you have the data, practically you're not gonna be able to pull it out in, in useful ways. Uh, so you wouldn't like represent a social graph, uh, in, in using that kind of relational table model. It just wouldn't scale. It wouldn't work.swyx [00:19:36]: Uh, yeah. Uh, I think we want to move on to MCP. Yeah. But I just want to, like, just engineering advice. Yeah. Uh, obviously you've, you've, you've run, uh, you've, you've had to do a lot of projects and run a lot of teams. Do you have a general rule for over-engineering or, you know, engineering ahead of time? You know, like, because people, we know premature engineering is the root of all evil. Yep. But also sometimes you just have to. Yep. When do you do it? Yes.Dharmesh [00:19:59]: It's a great question. This is, uh, a question as old as time almost, which is what's the right and wrong levels of abstraction. That's effectively what, uh, we're answering when we're trying to do engineering. I tend to be a pragmatist, right? So here's the thing. Um, lots of times doing something the right way. Yeah. It's like a marginal increased cost in those cases. Just do it the right way. And this is what makes a, uh, a great engineer or a good engineer better than, uh, a not so great one. It's like, okay, all things being equal. If it's going to take you, you know, roughly close to constant time anyway, might as well do it the right way. Like, so do things well, then the question is, okay, well, am I building a framework as the reusable library? To what degree, uh, what am I anticipating in terms of what's going to need to change in this thing? Uh, you know, along what dimension? And then I think like a business person in some ways, like what's the return on calories, right? So, uh, and you look at, um, energy, the expected value of it's like, okay, here are the five possible things that could happen, uh, try to assign probabilities like, okay, well, if there's a 50% chance that we're going to go down this particular path at some day, like, or one of these five things is going to happen and it costs you 10% more to engineer for that. It's basically, it's something that yields a kind of interest compounding value. Um, as you get closer to the time of, of needing that versus having to take on debt, which is when you under engineer it, you're taking on debt. You're going to have to pay off when you do get to that eventuality where something happens. One thing as a pragmatist, uh, so I would rather under engineer something than over engineer it. If I were going to err on the side of something, and here's the reason is that when you under engineer it, uh, yes, you take on tech debt, uh, but the interest rate is relatively known and payoff is very, very possible, right? Which is, oh, I took a shortcut here as a result of which now this thing that should have taken me a week is now going to take me four weeks. Fine. But if that particular thing that you thought might happen, never actually, you never have that use case transpire or just doesn't, it's like, well, you just save yourself time, right? And that has value because you were able to do other things instead of, uh, kind of slightly over-engineering it away, over-engineering it. But there's no perfect answers in art form in terms of, uh, and yeah, we'll, we'll bring kind of this layers of abstraction back on the code generation conversation, which we'll, uh, I think I have later on, butAlessio [00:22:05]: I was going to ask, we can just jump ahead quickly. Yeah. Like, as you think about vibe coding and all that, how does the. Yeah. Percentage of potential usefulness change when I feel like we over-engineering a lot of times it's like the investment in syntax, it's less about the investment in like arc exacting. Yep. Yeah. How does that change your calculus?Dharmesh [00:22:22]: A couple of things, right? One is, um, so, you know, going back to that kind of ROI or a return on calories, kind of calculus or heuristic you think through, it's like, okay, well, what is it going to cost me to put this layer of abstraction above the code that I'm writing now, uh, in anticipating kind of future needs. If the cost of fixing, uh, or doing under engineering right now. Uh, we'll trend towards zero that says, okay, well, I don't have to get it right right now because even if I get it wrong, I'll run the thing for six hours instead of 60 minutes or whatever. It doesn't really matter, right? Like, because that's going to trend towards zero to be able, the ability to refactor a code. Um, and because we're going to not that long from now, we're going to have, you know, large code bases be able to exist, uh, you know, as, as context, uh, for a code generation or a code refactoring, uh, model. So I think it's going to make it, uh, make the case for under engineering, uh, even stronger. Which is why I take on that cost. You just pay the interest when you get there, it's not, um, just go on with your life vibe coded and, uh, come back when you need to. Yeah.Alessio [00:23:18]: Sometimes I feel like there's no decision-making in some things like, uh, today I built a autosave for like our internal notes platform and I literally just ask them cursor. Can you add autosave? Yeah. I don't know if it's over under engineer. Yep. I just vibe coded it. Yep. And I feel like at some point we're going to get to the point where the models kindDharmesh [00:23:36]: of decide where the right line is, but this is where the, like the, in my mind, the danger is, right? So there's two sides to this. One is the cost of kind of development and coding and things like that stuff that, you know, we talk about. But then like in your example, you know, one of the risks that we have is that because adding a feature, uh, like a save or whatever the feature might be to a product as that price tends towards zero, are we going to be less discriminant about what features we add as a result of making more product products more complicated, which has a negative impact on the user and navigate negative impact on the business. Um, and so that's the thing I worry about if it starts to become too easy, are we going to be. Too promiscuous in our, uh, kind of extension, adding product extensions and things like that. It's like, ah, why not add X, Y, Z or whatever back then it was like, oh, we only have so many engineering hours or story points or however you measure things. Uh, that least kept us in check a little bit. Yeah.Alessio [00:24:22]: And then over engineering, you're like, yeah, it's kind of like you're putting that on yourself. Yeah. Like now it's like the models don't understand that if they add too much complexity, it's going to come back to bite them later. Yep. So they just do whatever they want to do. Yeah. And I'm curious where in the workflow that's going to be, where it's like, Hey, this is like the amount of complexity and over-engineering you can do before you got to ask me if we should actually do it versus like do something else.Dharmesh [00:24:45]: So you know, we've already, let's like, we're leaving this, uh, in the code generation world, this kind of compressed, um, cycle time. Right. It's like, okay, we went from auto-complete, uh, in the GitHub co-pilot to like, oh, finish this particular thing and hit tab to a, oh, I sort of know your file or whatever. I can write out a full function to you to now I can like hold a bunch of the context in my head. Uh, so we can do app generation, which we have now with lovable and bolt and repletage. Yeah. Association and other things. So then the question is, okay, well, where does it naturally go from here? So we're going to generate products. Make sense. We might be able to generate platforms as though I want a platform for ERP that does this, whatever. And that includes the API's includes the product and the UI, and all the things that make for a platform. There's no nothing that says we would stop like, okay, can you generate an entire software company someday? Right. Uh, with the platform and the monetization and the go-to-market and the whatever. And you know, that that's interesting to me in terms of, uh, you know, what, when you take it to almost ludicrous levels. of abstract.swyx [00:25:39]: It's like, okay, turn it to 11. You mentioned vibe coding, so I have to, this is a blog post I haven't written, but I'm kind of exploring it. Is the junior engineer dead?Dharmesh [00:25:49]: I don't think so. I think what will happen is that the junior engineer will be able to, if all they're bringing to the table is the fact that they are a junior engineer, then yes, they're likely dead. But hopefully if they can communicate with carbon-based life forms, they can interact with product, if they're willing to talk to customers, they can take their kind of basic understanding of engineering and how kind of software works. I think that has value. So I have a 14-year-old right now who's taking Python programming class, and some people ask me, it's like, why is he learning coding? And my answer is, is because it's not about the syntax, it's not about the coding. What he's learning is like the fundamental thing of like how things work. And there's value in that. I think there's going to be timeless value in systems thinking and abstractions and what that means. And whether functions manifested as math, which he's going to get exposed to regardless, or there are some core primitives to the universe, I think, that the more you understand them, those are what I would kind of think of as like really large dots in your life that will have a higher gravitational pull and value to them that you'll then be able to. So I want him to collect those dots, and he's not resisting. So it's like, okay, while he's still listening to me, I'm going to have him do things that I think will be useful.swyx [00:26:59]: You know, part of one of the pitches that I evaluated for AI engineer is a term. And the term is that maybe the traditional interview path or career path of software engineer goes away, which is because what's the point of lead code? Yeah. And, you know, it actually matters more that you know how to work with AI and to implement the things that you want. Yep.Dharmesh [00:27:16]: That's one of the like interesting things that's happened with generative AI. You know, you go from machine learning and the models and just that underlying form, which is like true engineering, right? Like the actual, what I call real engineering. I don't think of myself as a real engineer, actually. I'm a developer. But now with generative AI. We call it AI and it's obviously got its roots in machine learning, but it just feels like fundamentally different to me. Like you have the vibe. It's like, okay, well, this is just a whole different approach to software development to so many different things. And so I'm wondering now, it's like an AI engineer is like, if you were like to draw the Venn diagram, it's interesting because the cross between like AI things, generative AI and what the tools are capable of, what the models do, and this whole new kind of body of knowledge that we're still building out, it's still very young, intersected with kind of classic engineering, software engineering. Yeah.swyx [00:28:04]: I just described the overlap as it separates out eventually until it's its own thing, but it's starting out as a software. Yeah.Alessio [00:28:11]: That makes sense. So to close the vibe coding loop, the other big hype now is MCPs. Obviously, I would say Cloud Desktop and Cursor are like the two main drivers of MCP usage. I would say my favorite is the Sentry MCP. I can pull in errors and then you can just put the context in Cursor. How do you think about that abstraction layer? Does it feel... Does it feel almost too magical in a way? Do you think it's like you get enough? Because you don't really see how the server itself is then kind of like repackaging theDharmesh [00:28:41]: information for you? I think MCP as a standard is one of the better things that's happened in the world of AI because a standard needed to exist and absent a standard, there was a set of things that just weren't possible. Now, we can argue whether it's the best possible manifestation of a standard or not. Does it do too much? Does it do too little? I get that, but it's just simple enough to both be useful and unobtrusive. It's understandable and adoptable by mere mortals, right? It's not overly complicated. You know, a reasonable engineer can put a stand up an MCP server relatively easily. The thing that has me excited about it is like, so I'm a big believer in multi-agent systems. And so that's going back to our kind of this idea of an atomic agent. So imagine the MCP server, like obviously it calls tools, but the way I think about it, so I'm working on my current passion project is agent.ai. And we'll talk more about that in a little bit. More about the, I think we should, because I think it's interesting not to promote the project at all, but there's some interesting ideas in there. One of which is around, we're going to need a mechanism for, if agents are going to collaborate and be able to delegate, there's going to need to be some form of discovery and we're going to need some standard way. It's like, okay, well, I just need to know what this thing over here is capable of. We're going to need a registry, which Anthropic's working on. I'm sure others will and have been doing directories of, and there's going to be a standard around that too. How do you build out a directory of MCP servers? I think that's going to unlock so many things just because, and we're already starting to see it. So I think MCP or something like it is going to be the next major unlock because it allows systems that don't know about each other, don't need to, it's that kind of decoupling of like Sentry and whatever tools someone else was building. And it's not just about, you know, Cloud Desktop or things like, even on the client side, I think we're going to see very interesting consumers of MCP, MCP clients versus just the chat body kind of things. Like, you know, Cloud Desktop and Cursor and things like that. But yeah, I'm very excited about MCP in that general direction.swyx [00:30:39]: I think the typical cynical developer take, it's like, we have OpenAPI. Yeah. What's the new thing? I don't know if you have a, do you have a quick MCP versus everything else? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:30:49]: So it's, so I like OpenAPI, right? So just a descriptive thing. It's OpenAPI. OpenAPI. Yes, that's what I meant. So it's basically a self-documenting thing. We can do machine-generated, lots of things from that output. It's a structured definition of an API. I get that, love it. But MCPs sort of are kind of use case specific. They're perfect for exactly what we're trying to use them for around LLMs in terms of discovery. It's like, okay, I don't necessarily need to know kind of all this detail. And so right now we have, we'll talk more about like MCP server implementations, but We will? I think, I don't know. Maybe we won't. At least it's in my head. It's like a back processor. But I do think MCP adds value above OpenAPI. It's, yeah, just because it solves this particular thing. And if we had come to the world, which we have, like, it's like, hey, we already have OpenAPI. It's like, if that were good enough for the universe, the universe would have adopted it already. There's a reason why MCP is taking office because marginally adds something that was missing before and doesn't go too far. And so that's why the kind of rate of adoption, you folks have written about this and talked about it. Yeah, why MCP won. Yeah. And it won because the universe decided that this was useful and maybe it gets supplanted by something else. Yeah. And maybe we discover, oh, maybe OpenAPI was good enough the whole time. I doubt that.swyx [00:32:09]: The meta lesson, this is, I mean, he's an investor in DevTools companies. I work in developer experience at DevRel in DevTools companies. Yep. Everyone wants to own the standard. Yeah. I'm sure you guys have tried to launch your own standards. Actually, it's Houseplant known for a standard, you know, obviously inbound marketing. But is there a standard or protocol that you ever tried to push? No.Dharmesh [00:32:30]: And there's a reason for this. Yeah. Is that? And I don't mean, need to mean, speak for the people of HubSpot, but I personally. You kind of do. I'm not smart enough. That's not the, like, I think I have a. You're smart. Not enough for that. I'm much better off understanding the standards that are out there. And I'm more on the composability side. Let's, like, take the pieces of technology that exist out there, combine them in creative, unique ways. And I like to consume standards. I don't like to, and that's not that I don't like to create them. I just don't think I have the, both the raw wattage or the credibility. It's like, okay, well, who the heck is Dharmesh, and why should we adopt a standard he created?swyx [00:33:07]: Yeah, I mean, there are people who don't monetize standards, like OpenTelemetry is a big standard, and LightStep never capitalized on that.Dharmesh [00:33:15]: So, okay, so if I were to do a standard, there's two things that have been in my head in the past. I was one around, a very, very basic one around, I don't even have the domain, I have a domain for everything, for open marketing. Because the issue we had in HubSpot grew up in the marketing space. There we go. There was no standard around data formats and things like that. It doesn't go anywhere. But the other one, and I did not mean to go here, but I'm going to go here. It's called OpenGraph. I know the term was already taken, but it hasn't been used for like 15 years now for its original purpose. But what I think should exist in the world is right now, our information, all of us, nodes are in the social graph at Meta or the professional graph at LinkedIn. Both of which are actually relatively closed in actually very annoying ways. Like very, very closed, right? Especially LinkedIn. Especially LinkedIn. I personally believe that if it's my data, and if I would get utility out of it being open, I should be able to make my data open or publish it in whatever forms that I choose, as long as I have control over it as opt-in. So the idea is around OpenGraph that says, here's a standard, here's a way to publish it. I should be able to go to OpenGraph.org slash Dharmesh dot JSON and get it back. And it's like, here's your stuff, right? And I can choose along the way and people can write to it and I can prove. And there can be an entire system. And if I were to do that, I would do it as a... Like a public benefit, non-profit-y kind of thing, as this is a contribution to society. I wouldn't try to commercialize that. Have you looked at AdProto? What's that? AdProto.swyx [00:34:43]: It's the protocol behind Blue Sky. Okay. My good friend, Dan Abramov, who was the face of React for many, many years, now works there. And he actually did a talk that I can send you, which basically kind of tries to articulate what you just said. But he does, he loves doing these like really great analogies, which I think you'll like. Like, you know, a lot of our data is behind a handle, behind a domain. Yep. So he's like, all right, what if we flip that? What if it was like our handle and then the domain? Yep. So, and that's really like your data should belong to you. Yep. And I should not have to wait 30 days for my Twitter data to export. Yep.Dharmesh [00:35:19]: you should be able to at least be able to automate it or do like, yes, I should be able to plug it into an agentic thing. Yeah. Yes. I think we're... Because so much of our data is... Locked up. I think the trick here isn't that standard. It is getting the normies to care.swyx [00:35:37]: Yeah. Because normies don't care.Dharmesh [00:35:38]: That's true. But building on that, normies don't care. So, you know, privacy is a really hot topic and an easy word to use, but it's not a binary thing. Like there are use cases where, and we make these choices all the time, that I will trade, not all privacy, but I will trade some privacy for some productivity gain or some benefit to me that says, oh, I don't care about that particular data being online if it gives me this in return, or I don't mind sharing this information with this company.Alessio [00:36:02]: If I'm getting, you know, this in return, but that sort of should be my option. I think now with computer use, you can actually automate some of the exports. Yes. Like something we've been doing internally is like everybody exports their LinkedIn connections. Yep. And then internally, we kind of merge them together to see how we can connect our companies to customers or things like that.Dharmesh [00:36:21]: And not to pick on LinkedIn, but since we're talking about it, but they feel strongly enough on the, you know, do not take LinkedIn data that they will block even browser use kind of things or whatever. They go to great, great lengths, even to see patterns of usage. And it says, oh, there's no way you could have, you know, gotten that particular thing or whatever without, and it's, so it's, there's...swyx [00:36:42]: Wasn't there a Supreme Court case that they lost? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:36:45]: So the one they lost was around someone that was scraping public data that was on the public internet. And that particular company had not signed any terms of service or whatever. It's like, oh, I'm just taking data that's on, there was no, and so that's why they won. But now, you know, the question is around, can LinkedIn... I think they can. Like, when you use, as a user, you use LinkedIn, you are signing up for their terms of service. And if they say, well, this kind of use of your LinkedIn account that violates our terms of service, they can shut your account down, right? They can. And they, yeah, so, you know, we don't need to make this a discussion. By the way, I love the company, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid user of the product. You know, I've got... Yeah, I mean, you've got over a million followers on LinkedIn, I think. Yeah, I do. And I've known people there for a long, long time, right? And I have lots of respect. And I understand even where the mindset originally came from of this kind of members-first approach to, you know, a privacy-first. I sort of get that. But sometimes you sort of have to wonder, it's like, okay, well, that was 15, 20 years ago. There's likely some controlled ways to expose some data on some member's behalf and not just completely be a binary. It's like, no, thou shalt not have the data.swyx [00:37:54]: Well, just pay for sales navigator.Alessio [00:37:57]: Before we move to the next layer of instruction, anything else on MCP you mentioned? Let's move back and then I'll tie it back to MCPs.Dharmesh [00:38:05]: So I think the... Open this with agent. Okay, so I'll start with... Here's my kind of running thesis, is that as AI and agents evolve, which they're doing very, very quickly, we're going to look at them more and more. I don't like to anthropomorphize. We'll talk about why this is not that. Less as just like raw tools and more like teammates. They'll still be software. They should self-disclose as being software. I'm totally cool with that. But I think what's going to happen is that in the same way you might collaborate with a team member on Slack or Teams or whatever you use, you can imagine a series of agents that do specific things just like a team member might do, that you can delegate things to. You can collaborate. You can say, hey, can you take a look at this? Can you proofread that? Can you try this? You can... Whatever it happens to be. So I think it is... I will go so far as to say it's inevitable that we're going to have hybrid teams someday. And what I mean by hybrid teams... So back in the day, hybrid teams were, oh, well, you have some full-time employees and some contractors. Then it was like hybrid teams are some people that are in the office and some that are remote. That's the kind of form of hybrid. The next form of hybrid is like the carbon-based life forms and agents and AI and some form of software. So let's say we temporarily stipulate that I'm right about that over some time horizon that eventually we're going to have these kind of digitally hybrid teams. So if that's true, then the question you sort of ask yourself is that then what needs to exist in order for us to get the full value of that new model? It's like, okay, well... You sort of need to... It's like, okay, well, how do I... If I'm building a digital team, like, how do I... Just in the same way, if I'm interviewing for an engineer or a designer or a PM, whatever, it's like, well, that's why we have professional networks, right? It's like, oh, they have a presence on likely LinkedIn. I can go through that semi-structured, structured form, and I can see the experience of whatever, you know, self-disclosed. But, okay, well, agents are going to need that someday. And so I'm like, okay, well, this seems like a thread that's worth pulling on. That says, okay. So I... So agent.ai is out there. And it's LinkedIn for agents. It's LinkedIn for agents. It's a professional network for agents. And the more I pull on that thread, it's like, okay, well, if that's true, like, what happens, right? It's like, oh, well, they have a profile just like anyone else, just like a human would. It's going to be a graph underneath, just like a professional network would be. It's just that... And you can have its, you know, connections and follows, and agents should be able to post. That's maybe how they do release notes. Like, oh, I have this new version. Whatever they decide to post, it should just be able to... Behave as a node on the network of a professional network. As it turns out, the more I think about that and pull on that thread, the more and more things, like, start to make sense to me. So it may be more than just a pure professional network. So my original thought was, okay, well, it's a professional network and agents as they exist out there, which I think there's going to be more and more of, will kind of exist on this network and have the profile. But then, and this is always dangerous, I'm like, okay, I want to see a world where thousands of agents are out there in order for the... Because those digital employees, the digital workers don't exist yet in any meaningful way. And so then I'm like, oh, can I make that easier for, like... And so I have, as one does, it's like, oh, I'll build a low-code platform for building agents. How hard could that be, right? Like, very hard, as it turns out. But it's been fun. So now, agent.ai has 1.3 million users. 3,000 people have actually, you know, built some variation of an agent, sometimes just for their own personal productivity. About 1,000 of which have been published. And the reason this comes back to MCP for me, so imagine that and other networks, since I know agent.ai. So right now, we have an MCP server for agent.ai that exposes all the internally built agents that we have that do, like, super useful things. Like, you know, I have access to a Twitter API that I can subsidize the cost. And I can say, you know, if you're looking to build something for social media, these kinds of things, with a single API key, and it's all completely free right now, I'm funding it. That's a useful way for it to work. And then we have a developer to say, oh, I have this idea. I don't have to worry about open AI. I don't have to worry about, now, you know, this particular model is better. It has access to all the models with one key. And we proxy it kind of behind the scenes. And then expose it. So then we get this kind of community effect, right? That says, oh, well, someone else may have built an agent to do X. Like, I have an agent right now that I built for myself to do domain valuation for website domains because I'm obsessed with domains, right? And, like, there's no efficient market for domains. There's no Zillow for domains right now that tells you, oh, here are what houses in your neighborhood sold for. It's like, well, why doesn't that exist? We should be able to solve that problem. And, yes, you're still guessing. Fine. There should be some simple heuristic. So I built that. It's like, okay, well, let me go look for past transactions. You say, okay, I'm going to type in agent.ai, agent.com, whatever domain. What's it actually worth? I'm looking at buying it. It can go and say, oh, which is what it does. It's like, I'm going to go look at are there any published domain transactions recently that are similar, either use the same word, same top-level domain, whatever it is. And it comes back with an approximate value, and it comes back with its kind of rationale for why it picked the value and comparable transactions. Oh, by the way, this domain sold for published. Okay. So that agent now, let's say, existed on the web, on agent.ai. Then imagine someone else says, oh, you know, I want to build a brand-building agent for startups and entrepreneurs to come up with names for their startup. Like a common problem, every startup is like, ah, I don't know what to call it. And so they type in five random words that kind of define whatever their startup is. And you can do all manner of things, one of which is like, oh, well, I need to find the domain for it. What are possible choices? Now it's like, okay, well, it would be nice to know if there's an aftermarket price for it, if it's listed for sale. Awesome. Then imagine calling this valuation agent. It's like, okay, well, I want to find where the arbitrage is, where the agent valuation tool says this thing is worth $25,000. It's listed on GoDaddy for $5,000. It's close enough. Let's go do that. Right? And that's a kind of composition use case that in my future state. Thousands of agents on the network, all discoverable through something like MCP. And then you as a developer of agents have access to all these kind of Lego building blocks based on what you're trying to solve. Then you blend in orchestration, which is getting better and better with the reasoning models now. Just describe the problem that you have. Now, the next layer that we're all contending with is that how many tools can you actually give an LLM before the LLM breaks? That number used to be like 15 or 20 before you kind of started to vary dramatically. And so that's the thing I'm thinking about now. It's like, okay, if I want to... If I want to expose 1,000 of these agents to a given LLM, obviously I can't give it all 1,000. Is there some intermediate layer that says, based on your prompt, I'm going to make a best guess at which agents might be able to be helpful for this particular thing? Yeah.Alessio [00:44:37]: Yeah, like RAG for tools. Yep. I did build the Latent Space Researcher on agent.ai. Okay. Nice. Yeah, that seems like, you know, then there's going to be a Latent Space Scheduler. And then once I schedule a research, you know, and you build all of these things. By the way, my apologies for the user experience. You realize I'm an engineer. It's pretty good.swyx [00:44:56]: I think it's a normie-friendly thing. Yeah. That's your magic. HubSpot does the same thing.Alessio [00:45:01]: Yeah, just to like quickly run through it. You can basically create all these different steps. And these steps are like, you know, static versus like variable-driven things. How did you decide between this kind of like low-code-ish versus doing, you know, low-code with code backend versus like not exposing that at all? Any fun design decisions? Yeah. And this is, I think...Dharmesh [00:45:22]: I think lots of people are likely sitting in exactly my position right now, coming through the choosing between deterministic. Like if you're like in a business or building, you know, some sort of agentic thing, do you decide to do a deterministic thing? Or do you go non-deterministic and just let the alum handle it, right, with the reasoning models? The original idea and the reason I took the low-code stepwise, a very deterministic approach. A, the reasoning models did not exist at that time. That's thing number one. Thing number two is if you can get... If you know in your head... If you know in your head what the actual steps are to accomplish whatever goal, why would you leave that to chance? There's no upside. There's literally no upside. Just tell me, like, what steps do you need executed? So right now what I'm playing with... So one thing we haven't talked about yet, and people don't talk about UI and agents. Right now, the primary interaction model... Or they don't talk enough about it. I know some people have. But it's like, okay, so we're used to the chatbot back and forth. Fine. I get that. But I think we're going to move to a blend of... Some of those things are going to be synchronous as they are now. But some are going to be... Some are going to be async. It's just going to put it in a queue, just like... And this goes back to my... Man, I talk fast. But I have this... I only have one other speed. It's even faster. So imagine it's like if you're working... So back to my, oh, we're going to have these hybrid digital teams. Like, you would not go to a co-worker and say, I'm going to ask you to do this thing, and then sit there and wait for them to go do it. Like, that's not how the world works. So it's nice to be able to just, like, hand something off to someone. It's like, okay, well, maybe I expect a response in an hour or a day or something like that.Dharmesh [00:46:52]: In terms of when things need to happen. So the UI around agents. So if you look at the output of agent.ai agents right now, they are the simplest possible manifestation of a UI, right? That says, oh, we have inputs of, like, four different types. Like, we've got a dropdown, we've got multi-select, all the things. It's like back in HTML, the original HTML 1.0 days, right? Like, you're the smallest possible set of primitives for a UI. And it just says, okay, because we need to collect some information from the user, and then we go do steps and do things. And generate some output in HTML or markup are the two primary examples. So the thing I've been asking myself, if I keep going down that path. So people ask me, I get requests all the time. It's like, oh, can you make the UI sort of boring? I need to be able to do this, right? And if I keep pulling on that, it's like, okay, well, now I've built an entire UI builder thing. Where does this end? And so I think the right answer, and this is what I'm going to be backcoding once I get done here, is around injecting a code generation UI generation into, the agent.ai flow, right? As a builder, you're like, okay, I'm going to describe the thing that I want, much like you would do in a vibe coding world. But instead of generating the entire app, it's going to generate the UI that exists at some point in either that deterministic flow or something like that. It says, oh, here's the thing I'm trying to do. Go generate the UI for me. And I can go through some iterations. And what I think of it as a, so it's like, I'm going to generate the code, generate the code, tweak it, go through this kind of prompt style, like we do with vibe coding now. And at some point, I'm going to be happy with it. And I'm going to hit save. And that's going to become the action in that particular step. It's like a caching of the generated code that I can then, like incur any inference time costs. It's just the actual code at that point.Alessio [00:48:29]: Yeah, I invested in a company called E2B, which does code sandbox. And they powered the LM arena web arena. So it's basically the, just like you do LMS, like text to text, they do the same for like UI generation. So if you're asking a model, how do you do it? But yeah, I think that's kind of where.Dharmesh [00:48:45]: That's the thing I'm really fascinated by. So the early LLM, you know, we're understandably, but laughably bad at simple arithmetic, right? That's the thing like my wife, Normies would ask us, like, you call this AI, like it can't, my son would be like, it's just stupid. It can't even do like simple arithmetic. And then like we've discovered over time that, and there's a reason for this, right? It's like, it's a large, there's, you know, the word language is in there for a reason in terms of what it's been trained on. It's not meant to do math, but now it's like, okay, well, the fact that it has access to a Python interpreter that I can actually call at runtime, that solves an entire body of problems that it wasn't trained to do. And it's basically a form of delegation. And so the thought that's kind of rattling around in my head is that that's great. So it's, it's like took the arithmetic problem and took it first. Now, like anything that's solvable through a relatively concrete Python program, it's able to do a bunch of things that I couldn't do before. Can we get to the same place with UI? I don't know what the future of UI looks like in a agentic AI world, but maybe let the LLM handle it, but not in the classic sense. Maybe it generates it on the fly, or maybe we go through some iterations and hit cache or something like that. So it's a little bit more predictable. Uh, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:49:48]: And especially when is the human supposed to intervene? So, especially if you're composing them, most of them should not have a UI because then they're just web hooking to somewhere else. I just want to touch back. I don't know if you have more comments on this.swyx [00:50:01]: I was just going to ask when you, you said you got, you're going to go back to code. What

The March 2025 Core Update continues to roll out though early indicators are showing in search console. Google Business had a reverficiation bug that caused chaos for a few days that appears to be fixed. The White House announced it was going to order a dramatic downsizing of the department of Education and a French scientist was denied entry to the US after messages critical of Trump were found on his phone, which has terrifying implications for the future of American education and training. The US Court of Appeals rejected copyright protection for AI generated works without a human author while Spain announced it would impose massive fines for not labeling AI generated content as such. The EU has again charged Google with violating EU anti-trust rules, setting the stage for another series of rulings against the search giant. OpenAI released o1-Pro which will be the company's most expensive model yet. Facebook's efforts to supress Shara Wynn-Williams book, Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism has created a Streisand effect by creating ten times the publicity the book previously had. In other news: Danny Sullivan talks about Optimizing for Google AIO, links in AIOs don't necessarily lead to the same sites on Google search, Google is testing a radically expanded number of search options beyond AI Mode, Google Assist is replaced by Gemini, and Google is crawling JSON files daily. All this and much more in a long but interesting episode.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/webcology/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Guy Royse, dev advocate at Redis, discusses going beyond the cache with Redis and Node.js. He explores its capabilities as a memory-first database, session management, and even fun use cases like the Bigfoot Tracker API. He also shares insights on Redis OM for object mapping and its future in the JavaScript ecosystem. Links http://guyroyse.com http://github.com/guyroyse https://www.twitch.tv/guyroyse https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNt5SDc6LosO41E77jr59cQ https://x.com/guyroyse https://www.linkedin.com/in/groyse https://2024.connect.tech/session/693665 We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Guy Royse.

While everyone is now repeating that 2025 is the “Year of the Agent”, OpenAI is heads down building towards it. In the first 2 months of the year they released Operator and Deep Research (arguably the most successful agent archetype so far), and today they are bringing a lot of those capabilities to the API:* Responses API* Web Search Tool* Computer Use Tool* File Search Tool* A new open source Agents SDK with integrated Observability ToolsWe cover all this and more in today's lightning pod on YouTube!More details here:Responses APIIn our Michelle Pokrass episode we talked about the Assistants API needing a redesign. Today OpenAI is launching the Responses API, “a more flexible foundation for developers building agentic applications”. It's a superset of the chat completion API, and the suggested starting point for developers working with OpenAI models. One of the big upgrades is the new set of built-in tools for the responses API: Web Search, Computer Use, and Files. Web Search ToolWe previously had Exa AI on the podcast to talk about web search for AI. OpenAI is also now joining the race; the Web Search API is actually a new “model” that exposes two 4o fine-tunes: gpt-4o-search-preview and gpt-4o-mini-search-preview. These are the same models that power ChatGPT Search, and are priced at $30/1000 queries and $25/1000 queries respectively. The killer feature is inline citations: you do not only get a link to a page, but also a deep link to exactly where your query was answered in the result page. Computer Use ToolThe model that powers Operator, called Computer-Using-Agent (CUA), is also now available in the API. The computer-use-preview model is SOTA on most benchmarks, achieving 38.1% success on OSWorld for full computer use tasks, 58.1% on WebArena, and 87% on WebVoyager for web-based interactions.As you will notice in the docs, `computer-use-preview` is both a model and a tool through which you can specify the environment. Usage is priced at $3/1M input tokens and $12/1M output tokens, and it's currently only available to users in tiers 3-5.File Search ToolFile Search was also available in the Assistants API, and it's now coming to Responses too. OpenAI is bringing search + RAG all under one umbrella, and we'll definitely see more people trying to find new ways to build all-in-one apps on OpenAI. Usage is priced at $2.50 per thousand queries and file storage at $0.10/GB/day, with the first GB free.Agent SDK: Swarms++!https://github.com/openai/openai-agents-pythonTo bring it all together, after the viral reception to Swarm, OpenAI is releasing an officially supported agents framework (which was previewed at our AI Engineer Summit) with 4 core pieces:* Agents: Easily configurable LLMs with clear instructions and built-in tools.* Handoffs: Intelligently transfer control between agents.* Guardrails: Configurable safety checks for input and output validation.* Tracing & Observability: Visualize agent execution traces to debug and optimize performance.Multi-agent workflows are here to stay!OpenAI is now explicitly designs for a set of common agentic patterns: Workflows, Handoffs, Agents-as-Tools, LLM-as-a-Judge, Parallelization, and Guardrails. OpenAI previewed this in part 2 of their talk at NYC:Further coverage of the launch from Kevin Weil, WSJ, and OpenAIDevs, AMA here.Show Notes* Assistants API* Swarm (OpenAI)* Fine-Tuning in AI* 2024 OpenAI DevDay Recap with Romain* Michelle Pokrass episode (API lead)Timestamps* 00:00 Intros* 02:31 Responses API * 08:34 Web Search API * 17:14 Files Search API * 18:46 Files API vs RAG * 20:06 Computer Use / Operator API * 22:30 Agents SDKAnd of course you can catch up with the full livestream here:TranscriptAlessio [00:00:03]: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another Latent Space Lightning episode. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel, and I'm joined by Swyx, founder of Small AI.swyx [00:00:11]: Hi, and today we have a super special episode because we're talking with our old friend Roman. Hi, welcome.Romain [00:00:19]: Thank you. Thank you for having me.swyx [00:00:20]: And Nikunj, who is most famously, if anyone has ever tried to get any access to anything on the API, Nikunj is the guy. So I know your emails because I look forward to them.Nikunj [00:00:30]: Yeah, nice to meet all of you.swyx [00:00:32]: I think that we're basically convening today to talk about the new API. So perhaps you guys want to just kick off. What is OpenAI launching today?Nikunj [00:00:40]: Yeah, so I can kick it off. We're launching a bunch of new things today. We're going to do three new built-in tools. So we're launching the web search tool. This is basically chat GPD for search, but available in the API. We're launching an improved file search tool. So this is you bringing your data to OpenAI. You upload it. We, you know, take care of parsing it, chunking it. We're embedding it, making it searchable, give you this like ready vector store that you can use. So that's the file search tool. And then we're also launching our computer use tool. So this is the tool behind the operator product in chat GPD. So that's coming to developers today. And to support all of these tools, we're going to have a new API. So, you know, we launched chat completions, like I think March 2023 or so. It's been a while. So we're looking for an update over here to support all the new things that the models can do. And so we're launching this new API. It is, you know, it works with tools. We think it'll be like a great option for all the future agentic products that we build. And so that is also launching today. Actually, the last thing we're launching is the agents SDK. We launched this thing called Swarm last year where, you know, it was an experimental SDK for people to do multi-agent orchestration and stuff like that. It was supposed to be like educational experimental, but like people, people really loved it. They like ate it up. And so we are like, all right, let's, let's upgrade this thing. Let's give it a new name. And so we're calling it the agents SDK. It's going to have built-in tracing in the OpenAI dashboard. So lots of cool stuff going out. So, yeah.Romain [00:02:14]: That's a lot, but we said 2025 was the year of agents. So there you have it, like a lot of new tools to build these agents for developers.swyx [00:02:20]: Okay. I guess, I guess we'll just kind of go one by one and we'll leave the agents SDK towards the end. So responses API, I think the sort of primary concern that people have and something I think I've voiced to you guys when, when, when I was talking with you in the, in the planning process was, is chat completions going away? So I just wanted to let it, let you guys respond to the concerns that people might have.Romain [00:02:41]: Chat completion is definitely like here to stay, you know, it's a bare metal API we've had for quite some time. Lots of tools built around it. So we want to make sure that it's maintained and people can confidently keep on building on it. At the same time, it was kind of optimized for a different world, right? It was optimized for a pre-multi-modality world. We also optimized for kind of single turn. It takes two problems. It takes prompt in, it takes response out. And now with these agentic workflows, we, we noticed that like developers and companies want to build longer horizon tasks, you know, like things that require multiple returns to get the task accomplished. And computer use is one of those, for instance. And so that's why the responses API came to life to kind of support these new agentic workflows. But chat completion is definitely here to stay.swyx [00:03:27]: And assistance API, we've, uh, has a target sunset date of first half of 2020. So this is kind of like, in my mind, there was a kind of very poetic mirroring of the API with the models. This, I kind of view this as like kind of the merging of assistance API and chat completions, right. Into one unified responses. So it's kind of like how GPT and the old series models are also unifying.Romain [00:03:48]: Yeah, that's exactly the right, uh, that's the right framing, right? Like, I think we took the best of what we learned from the assistance API, especially like being able to access tools very, uh, very like conveniently, but at the same time, like simplifying the way you have to integrate, like, you no longer have to think about six different objects to kind of get access to these tools with the responses API. You just get one API request and suddenly you can weave in those tools, right?Nikunj [00:04:12]: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're going to make it really easy and straightforward for assistance API users to migrate over to responsive. Right. To the API without any loss of functionality or data. So our plan is absolutely to add, you know, assistant like objects and thread light objects to that, that work really well with the responses API. We'll also add like the code interpreter tool, which is not launching today, but it'll come soon. And, uh, we'll add async mode to responses API, because that's another difference with, with, uh, assistance. I will have web hooks and stuff like that, but I think it's going to be like a pretty smooth transition. Uh, once we have all of that in place. And we'll be. Like a full year to migrate and, and help them through any issues they, they, they face. So overall, I feel like assistance users are really going to benefit from this longer term, uh, with this more flexible, primitive.Alessio [00:05:01]: How should people think about when to use each type of API? So I know that in the past, the assistance was maybe more stateful, kind of like long running, many tool use kind of like file based things. And the chat completions is more stateless, you know, kind of like traditional completion API. Is that still the mental model that people should have? Or like, should you buy the.Nikunj [00:05:20]: So the responses API is going to support everything that it's at launch, going to support everything that chat completion supports, and then over time, it's going to support everything that assistance supports. So it's going to be a pretty good fit for anyone starting out with open AI. Uh, they should be able to like go to responses responses, by the way, also has a stateless mode, so you can pass in store false and they'll make the whole API stateless, just like chat completions. You're really trying to like get this unification. A story in so that people don't have to juggle multiple endpoints. That being said, like chat completions, just like the most widely adopted API, it's it's so popular. So we're still going to like support it for years with like new models and features. But if you're a new user, you want to or if you want to like existing, you want to tap into some of these like built in tools or something, you should feel feel totally fine migrating to responses and you'll have more capabilities and performance than the tech completions.swyx [00:06:16]: I think the messaging that I agree that I think resonated the most. When I talked to you was that it is a strict superset, right? Like you should be able to do everything that you could do in chat completions and with assistants. And the thing that I just assumed that because you're you're now, you know, by default is stateful, you're actually storing the chat logs or the chat state. I thought you'd be charging me for it. So, you know, to me, it was very surprising that you figured out how to make it free.Nikunj [00:06:43]: Yeah, it's free. We store your state for 30 days. You can turn it off. But yeah, it's it's free. And the interesting thing on state is that it just like makes particularly for me, it makes like debugging things and building things so much simpler, where I can like create a responses object that's like pretty complicated and part of this more complex application that I've built, I can just go into my dashboard and see exactly what happened that mess up my prompt that is like not called one of these tools that misconfigure one of the tools like the visual observability of everything that you're doing is so, so helpful. So I'm excited, like about people trying that out and getting benefits from it, too.swyx [00:07:19]: Yeah, it's a it's really, I think, a really nice to have. But all I'll say is that my friend Corey Quinn says that anything that can be used as a database will be used as a database. So be prepared for some abuse.Romain [00:07:34]: All right. Yeah, that's a good one. Some of that I've tried with the metadata. That's some people are very, very creative at stuffing data into an object. Yeah.Nikunj [00:07:44]: And we do have metadata with responses. Exactly. Yeah.Alessio [00:07:48]: Let's get through it. All of these. So web search. I think the when I first said web search, I thought you were going to just expose a API that then return kind of like a nice list of thing. But the way it's name is like GPD for all search preview. So I'm guessing you have you're using basically the same model that is in the chat GPD search, which is fine tune for search. I'm guessing it's a different model than the base one. And it's impressive the jump in performance. So just to give an example, in simple QA, GPD for all is 38% accuracy for all search is 90%. But we always talk about. How tools are like models is not everything you need, like tools around it are just as important. So, yeah, maybe give people a quick review on like the work that went into making this special.Nikunj [00:08:29]: Should I take that?Alessio [00:08:29]: Yeah, go for it.Nikunj [00:08:30]: So firstly, we're launching web search in two ways. One in responses API, which is our API for tools. It's going to be available as a web search tool itself. So you'll be able to go tools, turn on web search and you're ready to go. We still wanted to give chat completions people access to real time information. So in that. Chat completions API, which does not support built in tools. We're launching the direct access to the fine tuned model that chat GPD for search uses, and we call it GPD for search preview. And how is this model built? Basically, we have our search research team has been working on this for a while. Their main goal is to, like, get information, like get a bunch of information from all of our data sources that we use to gather information for search and then pick the right things and then cite them. As accurately as possible. And that's what the search team has really focused on. They've done some pretty cool stuff. They use like synthetic data techniques. They've done like all series model distillation to, like, make these four or fine tunes really good. But yeah, the main thing is, like, can it remain factual? Can it answer questions based on what it retrieves and get cited accurately? And that's what this like fine tune model really excels at. And so, yeah, so we're excited that, like, it's going to be directly available in chat completions along with being available as a tool. Yeah.Alessio [00:09:49]: Just to clarify, if I'm using the responses API, this is a tool. But if I'm using chat completions, I have to switch model. I cannot use 01 and call search as a tool. Yeah, that's right. Exactly.Romain [00:09:58]: I think what's really compelling, at least for me and my own uses of it so far, is that when you use, like, web search as a tool, it combines nicely with every other tool and every other feature of the platform. So think about this for a second. For instance, imagine you have, like, a responses API call with the web search tool, but suddenly you turn on function calling. You also turn on, let's say, structure. So you can have, like, the ability to structure any data from the web in real time in the JSON schema that you need for your application. So it's quite powerful when you start combining those features and tools together. It's kind of like an API for the Internet almost, you know, like you get, like, access to the precise schema you need for your app. Yeah.Alessio [00:10:39]: And then just to wrap up on the infrastructure side of it, I read on the post that people, publisher can choose to appear in the web search. So are people by default in it? Like, how can we get Latent Space in the web search API?Nikunj [00:10:53]: Yeah. Yeah. I think we have some documentation around how websites, publishers can control, like, what shows up in a web search tool. And I think you should be able to, like, read that. I think we should be able to get Latent Space in for sure. Yeah.swyx [00:11:10]: You know, I think so. I compare this to a broader trend that I started covering last year of online LLMs. Actually, Perplexity, I think, was the first. It was the first to say, to offer an API that is connected to search, and then Gemini had the sort of search grounding API. And I think you guys, I actually didn't, I missed this in the original reading of the docs, but you even give like citations with like the exact sub paragraph that is matching, which I think is the standard nowadays. I think my question is, how do we take what a knowledge cutoff is for something like this, right? Because like now, basically there's no knowledge cutoff is always live, but then there's a difference between what the model has sort of internalized in its back propagation and what is searching up its rag.Romain [00:11:53]: I think it kind of depends on the use case, right? And what you want to showcase as the source. Like, for instance, you take a company like Hebbia that has used this like web search tool. They can combine like for credit firms or law firms, they can find like, you know, public information from the internet with the live sources and citation that sometimes you do want to have access to, as opposed to like the internal knowledge. But if you're building something different, well, like, you just want to have the information. If you want to have an assistant that relies on the deep knowledge that the model has, you may not need to have these like direct citations. So I think it kind of depends on the use case a little bit, but there are many, uh, many companies like Hebbia that will need that access to these citations to precisely know where the information comes from.swyx [00:12:34]: Yeah, yeah, uh, for sure. And then one thing on the, on like the breadth, you know, I think a lot of the deep research, open deep research implementations have this sort of hyper parameter about, you know, how deep they're searching and how wide they're searching. I don't see that in the docs. But is that something that we can tune? Is that something you recommend thinking about?Nikunj [00:12:53]: Super interesting. It's definitely not a parameter today, but we should explore that. It's very interesting. I imagine like how you would do it with the web search tool and responsive API is you would have some form of like, you know, agent orchestration over here where you have a planning step and then each like web search call that you do like explicitly goes a layer deeper and deeper and deeper. But it's not a parameter that's available out of the box. But it's a cool. It's a cool thing to think about. Yeah.swyx [00:13:19]: The only guidance I'll offer there is a lot of these implementations offer top K, which is like, you know, top 10, top 20, but actually don't really want that. You want like sort of some kind of similarity cutoff, right? Like some matching score cuts cutoff, because if there's only five things, five documents that match fine, if there's 500 that match, maybe that's what I want. Right. Yeah. But also that might, that might make my costs very unpredictable because the costs are something like $30 per a thousand queries, right? So yeah. Yeah.Nikunj [00:13:49]: I guess you could, you could have some form of like a context budget and then you're like, go as deep as you can and pick the best stuff and put it into like X number of tokens. There could be some creative ways of, of managing cost, but yeah, that's a super interesting thing to explore.Alessio [00:14:05]: Do you see people using the files and the search API together where you can kind of search and then store everything in the file so the next time I'm not paying for the search again and like, yeah, how should people balance that?Nikunj [00:14:17]: That's actually a very interesting question. And let me first tell you about how I've seen a really cool way I've seen people use files and search together is they put their user preferences or memories in the vector store and so a query comes in, you use the file search tool to like get someone's like reading preferences or like fashion preferences and stuff like that, and then you search the web for information or products that they can buy related to those preferences and you then render something beautiful to show them, like, here are five things that you might be interested in. So that's how I've seen like file search, web search work together. And by the way, that's like a single responses API call, which is really cool. So you just like configure these things, go boom, and like everything just happens. But yeah, that's how I've seen like files and web work together.Romain [00:15:01]: But I think that what you're pointing out is like interesting, and I'm sure developers will surprise us as they always do in terms of how they combine these tools and how they might use file search as a way to have memory and preferences, like Nikum says. But I think like zooming out, what I find very compelling and powerful here is like when you have these like neural networks. That have like all of the knowledge that they have today, plus real time access to the Internet for like any kind of real time information that you might need for your app and file search, where you can have a lot of company, private documents, private details, you combine those three, and you have like very, very compelling and precise answers for any kind of use case that your company or your product might want to enable.swyx [00:15:41]: It's a difference between sort of internal documents versus the open web, right? Like you're going to need both. Exactly, exactly. I never thought about it doing memory as well. I guess, again, you know, anything that's a database, you can store it and you will use it as a database. That sounds awesome. But I think also you've been, you know, expanding the file search. You have more file types. You have query optimization, custom re-ranking. So it really seems like, you know, it's been fleshed out. Obviously, I haven't been paying a ton of attention to the file search capability, but it sounds like your team has added a lot of features.Nikunj [00:16:14]: Yeah, metadata filtering was like the main thing people were asking us for for a while. And I'm super excited about it. I mean, it's just so critical once your, like, web store size goes over, you know, more than like, you know, 5,000, 10,000 records, you kind of need that. So, yeah, metadata filtering is coming, too.Romain [00:16:31]: And for most companies, it's also not like a competency that you want to rebuild in-house necessarily, you know, like, you know, thinking about embeddings and chunking and, you know, how of that, like, it sounds like very complex for something very, like, obvious to ship for your users. Like companies like Navant, for instance. They were able to build with the file search, like, you know, take all of the FAQ and travel policies, for instance, that you have, you, you put that in file search tool, and then you don't have to think about anything. Now your assistant becomes naturally much more aware of all of these policies from the files.swyx [00:17:03]: The question is, like, there's a very, very vibrant RAG industry already, as you well know. So there's many other vector databases, many other frameworks. Probably if it's an open source stack, I would say like a lot of the AI engineers that I talk to want to own this part of the stack. And it feels like, you know, like, when should we DIY and when should we just use whatever OpenAI offers?Nikunj [00:17:24]: Yeah. I mean, like, if you're doing something completely from scratch, you're going to have more control, right? Like, so super supportive of, you know, people trying to, like, roll up their sleeves, build their, like, super custom chunking strategy and super custom retrieval strategy and all of that. And those are things that, like, will be harder to do with OpenAI tools. OpenAI tool has, like, we have an out-of-the-box solution. We give you the tools. We use some knobs to customize things, but it's more of, like, a managed RAG service. So my recommendation would be, like, start with the OpenAI thing, see if it, like, meets your needs. And over time, we're going to be adding more and more knobs to make it even more customizable. But, you know, if you want, like, the completely custom thing, you want control over every single thing, then you'd probably want to go and hand roll it using other solutions. So we're supportive of both, like, engineers should pick. Yeah.Alessio [00:18:16]: And then we got computer use. Which I think Operator was obviously one of the hot releases of the year. And we're only two months in. Let's talk about that. And that's also, it seems like a separate model that has been fine-tuned for Operator that has browser access.Nikunj [00:18:31]: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the computer use models are exciting. The cool thing about computer use is that we're just so, so early. It's like the GPT-2 of computer use or maybe GPT-1 of computer use right now. But it is a separate model that has been, you know, the computer. The computer use team has been working on, you send it screenshots and it tells you what action to take. So the outputs of it are almost always tool calls and you're inputting screenshots based on whatever computer you're trying to operate.Romain [00:19:01]: Maybe zooming out for a second, because like, I'm sure your audience is like super, super like AI native, obviously. But like, what is computer use as a tool, right? And what's operator? So the idea for computer use is like, how do we let developers also build agents that can complete tasks for the users, but using a computer? Okay. Or a browser instead. And so how do you get that done? And so that's why we have this custom model, like optimized for computer use that we use like for operator ourselves. But the idea behind like putting it as an API is that imagine like now you want to, you want to automate some tasks for your product or your own customers. Then now you can, you can have like the ability to spin up one of these agents that will look at the screen and act on the screen. So that means able, the ability to click, the ability to scroll. The ability to type and to report back on the action. So that's what we mean by computer use and wrapping it as a tool also in the responses API. So now like that gives a hint also at the multi-turned thing that we were hinting at earlier, the idea that like, yeah, maybe one of these actions can take a couple of minutes to complete because there's maybe like 20 steps to complete that task. But now you can.swyx [00:20:08]: Do you think a computer use can play Pokemon?Romain [00:20:11]: Oh, interesting. I guess we tried it. I guess we should try it. You know?swyx [00:20:17]: Yeah. There's a lot of interest. I think Pokemon really is a good agent benchmark, to be honest. Like it seems like Claude is, Claude is running into a lot of trouble.Romain [00:20:25]: Sounds like we should make that a new eval, it looks like.swyx [00:20:28]: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and then one more, one more thing before we move on to agents SDK. I know you have a hard stop. There's all these, you know, blah, blah, dash preview, right? Like search preview, computer use preview, right? And you see them all like fine tunes of 4.0. I think the question is, are we, are they all going to be merged into the main branch or are we basically always going to have subsets? Of these models?Nikunj [00:20:49]: Yeah, I think in the early days, research teams at OpenAI like operate with like fine tune models. And then once the thing gets like more stable, we sort of merge it into the main line. So that's definitely the vision, like going out of preview as we get more comfortable with and learn about all the developer use cases and we're doing a good job at them. We'll sort of like make them part of like the core models so that you don't have to like deal with the bifurcation.Romain [00:21:12]: You should think of it this way as exactly what happened last year when we introduced vision capabilities, you know. Yes. Vision capabilities were in like a vision preview model based off of GPT-4 and then vision capabilities now are like obviously built into GPT-4.0. You can think about it the same way for like the other modalities like audio and those kind of like models, like optimized for search and computer use.swyx [00:21:34]: Agents SDK, we have a few minutes left. So let's just assume that everyone has looked at Swarm. Sure. I think that Swarm has really popularized the handoff technique, which I thought was like, you know, really, really interesting for sort of a multi-agent. What is new with the SDK?Nikunj [00:21:50]: Yeah. Do you want to start? Yeah, for sure. So we've basically added support for types. We've made this like a lot. Yeah. Like we've added support for types. We've added support for guard railing, which is a very common pattern. So in the guardrail example, you basically have two things happen in parallel. The guardrail can sort of block the execution. It's a type of like optimistic generation that happens. And I think we've added support for tracing. So I think that's really cool. So you can basically look at the traces that the Agents SDK creates in the OpenAI dashboard. We also like made this pretty flexible. So you can pick any API from any provider that supports the ChatCompletions API format. So it supports responses by default, but you can like easily plug it in to anyone that uses the ChatCompletions API. And similarly, on the tracing side, you can support like multiple tracing providers. By default, it sort of points to the OpenAI dashboard. But, you know, there's like so many tracing providers. There's so many tracing companies out there. And we'll announce some partnerships on that front, too. So just like, you know, adding lots of core features and making it more usable, but still centered around like handoffs is like the main, main concept.Romain [00:22:59]: And by the way, it's interesting, right? Because Swarm just came to life out of like learning from customers directly that like orchestrating agents in production was pretty hard. You know, simple ideas could quickly turn very complex. Like what are those guardrails? What are those handoffs, et cetera? So that came out of like learning from customers. And it was initially shipped. It was not as a like low-key experiment, I'd say. But we were kind of like taken by surprise at how much momentum there was around this concept. And so we decided to learn from that and embrace it. To be like, okay, maybe we should just embrace that as a core primitive of the OpenAI platform. And that's kind of what led to the Agents SDK. And I think now, as Nikuj mentioned, it's like adding all of these new capabilities to it, like leveraging the handoffs that we had, but tracing also. And I think what's very compelling for developers is like instead of having one agent to rule them all and you stuff like a lot of tool calls in there that can be hard to monitor, now you have the tools you need to kind of like separate the logic, right? And you can have a triage agent that based on an intent goes to different kind of agents. And then on the OpenAI dashboard, we're releasing a lot of new user interface logs as well. So you can see all of the tracing UIs. Essentially, you'll be able to troubleshoot like what exactly happened. In that workflow, when the triage agent did a handoff to a secondary agent and the third and see the tool calls, et cetera. So we think that the Agents SDK combined with the tracing UIs will definitely help users and developers build better agentic workflows.Alessio [00:24:28]: And just before we wrap, are you thinking of connecting this with also the RFT API? Because I know you already have, you kind of store my text completions and then I can do fine tuning of that. Is that going to be similar for agents where you're storing kind of like my traces? And then help me improve the agents?Nikunj [00:24:43]: Yeah, absolutely. Like you got to tie the traces to the evals product so that you can generate good evals. Once you have good evals and graders and tasks, you can use that to do reinforcement fine tuning. And, you know, lots of details to be figured out over here. But that's the vision. And I think we're going to go after it like pretty hard and hope we can like make this whole workflow a lot easier for developers.Alessio [00:25:05]: Awesome. Thank you so much for the time. I'm sure you'll be busy on Twitter tomorrow with all the developer feedback. Yeah.Romain [00:25:12]: Thank you so much for having us. And as always, we can't wait to see what developers will build with these tools and how we can like learn as quickly as we can from them to make them even better over time.Nikunj [00:25:21]: Yeah.Romain [00:25:22]: Thank you, guys.Nikunj [00:25:23]: Thank you.Romain [00:25:23]: Thank you both. Awesome. Get full access to Latent.Space at www.latent.space/subscribe

Romanian Distillery Scanning for SMTP Credentials A particular attacker expanded the scope of their leaked credential file scans. In addition to the usual ".env" style files, it is not looking for specific SMTP related credential files. https://isc.sans.edu/diary/Romanian%20Distillery%20Scanning%20for%20SMTP%20Credentials/31736 Tool Updates: mac-robber.py This update of mac-robber.py fixes issues with symlinks. https://isc.sans.edu/diary/Tool%20update%3A%20mac-robber.py/31738 CVE-2025-1723 Account takeover vulnerability in ADSelfService Plus CVE-2025-1723 describes a vulnerability caused by session mishandling in ADSelfService Plus that could allow unauthorized access to user enrollment data when MFA was not enabled for ADSelfService Plus login. https://www.manageengine.com/products/self-service-password/advisory/CVE-2025-1723.html Android March Update Google released an update for Android addressing two already exploited vulnerabilities and several critical issues. https://source.android.com/docs/security/bulletin/2025-03-01 PayPal's no-code-checkout Abuse Attackers are using PayPal's no-code-checkout feature is being abused by scammers to host PayPal tech support scam pages right within the PayPal.com domain. https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/scams/2025/02/paypals-no-code-checkout-abused-by-scammers Broadcom Fixes three VMWare VCenter Vulnerabilities https://github.com/vmware/vcf-security-and-compliance-guidelines/tree/main/security-advisories/vmsa-2025-0004

Today's episode is with Paul Klein, founder of Browserbase. We talked about building browser infrastructure for AI agents, the future of agent authentication, and their open source framework Stagehand.* [00:00:00] Introductions* [00:04:46] AI-specific challenges in browser infrastructure* [00:07:05] Multimodality in AI-Powered Browsing* [00:12:26] Running headless browsers at scale* [00:18:46] Geolocation when proxying* [00:21:25] CAPTCHAs and Agent Auth* [00:28:21] Building “User take over” functionality* [00:33:43] Stagehand: AI web browsing framework* [00:38:58] OpenAI's Operator and computer use agents* [00:44:44] Surprising use cases of Browserbase* [00:47:18] Future of browser automation and market competition* [00:53:11] Being a solo founderTranscriptAlessio [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we are very blessed to have our friends, Paul Klein, for the fourth, the fourth, CEO of Browserbase. Welcome.Paul [00:00:21]: Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. I've been lucky to know both of you for like a couple of years now, I think. So it's just like we're hanging out, you know, with three ginormous microphones in front of our face. It's totally normal hangout.swyx [00:00:34]: Yeah. We've actually mentioned you on the podcast, I think, more often than any other Solaris tenant. Just because like you're one of the, you know, best performing, I think, LLM tool companies that have started up in the last couple of years.Paul [00:00:50]: Yeah, I mean, it's been a whirlwind of a year, like Browserbase is actually pretty close to our first birthday. So we are one years old. And going from, you know, starting a company as a solo founder to... To, you know, having a team of 20 people, you know, a series A, but also being able to support hundreds of AI companies that are building AI applications that go out and automate the web. It's just been like, really cool. It's been happening a little too fast. I think like collectively as an AI industry, let's just take a week off together. I took my first vacation actually two weeks ago, and Operator came out on the first day, and then a week later, DeepSeat came out. And I'm like on vacation trying to chill. I'm like, we got to build with this stuff, right? So it's been a breakneck year. But I'm super happy to be here and like talk more about all the stuff we're seeing. And I'd love to hear kind of what you guys are excited about too, and share with it, you know?swyx [00:01:39]: Where to start? So people, you've done a bunch of podcasts. I think I strongly recommend Jack Bridger's Scaling DevTools, as well as Turner Novak's The Peel. And, you know, I'm sure there's others. So you covered your Twilio story in the past, talked about StreamClub, you got acquired to Mux, and then you left to start Browserbase. So maybe we just start with what is Browserbase? Yeah.Paul [00:02:02]: Browserbase is the web browser for your AI. We're building headless browser infrastructure, which are browsers that run in a server environment that's accessible to developers via APIs and SDKs. It's really hard to run a web browser in the cloud. You guys are probably running Chrome on your computers, and that's using a lot of resources, right? So if you want to run a web browser or thousands of web browsers, you can't just spin up a bunch of lambdas. You actually need to use a secure containerized environment. You have to scale it up and down. It's a stateful system. And that infrastructure is, like, super painful. And I know that firsthand, because at my last company, StreamClub, I was CTO, and I was building our own internal headless browser infrastructure. That's actually why we sold the company, is because Mux really wanted to buy our headless browser infrastructure that we'd built. And it's just a super hard problem. And I actually told my co-founders, I would never start another company unless it was a browser infrastructure company. And it turns out that's really necessary in the age of AI, when AI can actually go out and interact with websites, click on buttons, fill in forms. You need AI to do all of that work in an actual browser running somewhere on a server. And BrowserBase powers that.swyx [00:03:08]: While you're talking about it, it occurred to me, not that you're going to be acquired or anything, but it occurred to me that it would be really funny if you became the Nikita Beer of headless browser companies. You just have one trick, and you make browser companies that get acquired.Paul [00:03:23]: I truly do only have one trick. I'm screwed if it's not for headless browsers. I'm not a Go programmer. You know, I'm in AI grant. You know, browsers is an AI grant. But we were the only company in that AI grant batch that used zero dollars on AI spend. You know, we're purely an infrastructure company. So as much as people want to ask me about reinforcement learning, I might not be the best guy to talk about that. But if you want to ask about headless browser infrastructure at scale, I can talk your ear off. So that's really my area of expertise. And it's a pretty niche thing. Like, nobody has done what we're doing at scale before. So we're happy to be the experts.swyx [00:03:59]: You do have an AI thing, stagehand. We can talk about the sort of core of browser-based first, and then maybe stagehand. Yeah, stagehand is kind of the web browsing framework. Yeah.What is Browserbase? Headless Browser Infrastructure ExplainedAlessio [00:04:10]: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe how you got to browser-based and what problems you saw. So one of the first things I worked on as a software engineer was integration testing. Sauce Labs was kind of like the main thing at the time. And then we had Selenium, we had Playbrite, we had all these different browser things. But it's always been super hard to do. So obviously you've worked on this before. When you started browser-based, what were the challenges? What were the AI-specific challenges that you saw versus, there's kind of like all the usual running browser at scale in the cloud, which has been a problem for years. What are like the AI unique things that you saw that like traditional purchase just didn't cover? Yeah.AI-specific challenges in browser infrastructurePaul [00:04:46]: First and foremost, I think back to like the first thing I did as a developer, like as a kid when I was writing code, I wanted to write code that did stuff for me. You know, I wanted to write code to automate my life. And I do that probably by using curl or beautiful soup to fetch data from a web browser. And I think I still do that now that I'm in the cloud. And the other thing that I think is a huge challenge for me is that you can't just create a web site and parse that data. And we all know that now like, you know, taking HTML and plugging that into an LLM, you can extract insights, you can summarize. So it was very clear that now like dynamic web scraping became very possible with the rise of large language models or a lot easier. And that was like a clear reason why there's been more usage of headless browsers, which are necessary because a lot of modern websites don't expose all of their page content via a simple HTTP request. You know, they actually do require you to run this type of code for a specific time. JavaScript on the page to hydrate this. Airbnb is a great example. You go to airbnb.com. A lot of that content on the page isn't there until after they run the initial hydration. So you can't just scrape it with a curl. You need to have some JavaScript run. And a browser is that JavaScript engine that's going to actually run all those requests on the page. So web data retrieval was definitely one driver of starting BrowserBase and the rise of being able to summarize that within LLM. Also, I was familiar with if I wanted to automate a website, I could write one script and that would work for one website. It was very static and deterministic. But the web is non-deterministic. The web is always changing. And until we had LLMs, there was no way to write scripts that you could write once that would run on any website. That would change with the structure of the website. Click the login button. It could mean something different on many different websites. And LLMs allow us to generate code on the fly to actually control that. So I think that rise of writing the generic automation scripts that can work on many different websites, to me, made it clear that browsers are going to be a lot more useful because now you can automate a lot more things without writing. If you wanted to write a script to book a demo call on 100 websites, previously, you had to write 100 scripts. Now you write one script that uses LLMs to generate that script. That's why we built our web browsing framework, StageHand, which does a lot of that work for you. But those two things, web data collection and then enhanced automation of many different websites, it just felt like big drivers for more browser infrastructure that would be required to power these kinds of features.Alessio [00:07:05]: And was multimodality also a big thing?Paul [00:07:08]: Now you can use the LLMs to look, even though the text in the dome might not be as friendly. Maybe my hot take is I was always kind of like, I didn't think vision would be as big of a driver. For UI automation, I felt like, you know, HTML is structured text and large language models are good with structured text. But it's clear that these computer use models are often vision driven, and they've been really pushing things forward. So definitely being multimodal, like rendering the page is required to take a screenshot to give that to a computer use model to take actions on a website. And it's just another win for browser. But I'll be honest, that wasn't what I was thinking early on. I didn't even think that we'd get here so fast with multimodality. I think we're going to have to get back to multimodal and vision models.swyx [00:07:50]: This is one of those things where I forgot to mention in my intro that I'm an investor in Browserbase. And I remember that when you pitched to me, like a lot of the stuff that we have today, we like wasn't on the original conversation. But I did have my original thesis was something that we've talked about on the podcast before, which is take the GPT store, the custom GPT store, all the every single checkbox and plugin is effectively a startup. And this was the browser one. I think the main hesitation, I think I actually took a while to get back to you. The main hesitation was that there were others. Like you're not the first hit list browser startup. It's not even your first hit list browser startup. There's always a question of like, will you be the category winner in a place where there's a bunch of incumbents, to be honest, that are bigger than you? They're just not targeted at the AI space. They don't have the backing of Nat Friedman. And there's a bunch of like, you're here in Silicon Valley. They're not. I don't know.Paul [00:08:47]: I don't know if that's, that was it, but like, there was a, yeah, I mean, like, I think I tried all the other ones and I was like, really disappointed. Like my background is from working at great developer tools, companies, and nothing had like the Vercel like experience. Um, like our biggest competitor actually is partly owned by private equity and they just jacked up their prices quite a bit. And the dashboard hasn't changed in five years. And I actually used them at my last company and tried them and I was like, oh man, like there really just needs to be something that's like the experience of these great infrastructure companies, like Stripe, like clerk, like Vercel that I use in love, but oriented towards this kind of like more specific category, which is browser infrastructure, which is really technically complex. Like a lot of stuff can go wrong on the internet when you're running a browser. The internet is very vast. There's a lot of different configurations. Like there's still websites that only work with internet explorer out there. How do you handle that when you're running your own browser infrastructure? These are the problems that we have to think about and solve at BrowserBase. And it's, it's certainly a labor of love, but I built this for me, first and foremost, I know it's super cheesy and everyone says that for like their startups, but it really, truly was for me. If you look at like the talks I've done even before BrowserBase, and I'm just like really excited to try and build a category defining infrastructure company. And it's, it's rare to have a new category of infrastructure exists. We're here in the Chroma offices and like, you know, vector databases is a new category of infrastructure. Is it, is it, I mean, we can, we're in their office, so, you know, we can, we can debate that one later. That is one.Multimodality in AI-Powered Browsingswyx [00:10:16]: That's one of the industry debates.Paul [00:10:17]: I guess we go back to the LLMOS talk that Karpathy gave way long ago. And like the browser box was very clearly there and it seemed like the people who were building in this space also agreed that browsers are a core primitive of infrastructure for the LLMOS that's going to exist in the future. And nobody was building something there that I wanted to use. So I had to go build it myself.swyx [00:10:38]: Yeah. I mean, exactly that talk that, that honestly, that diagram, every box is a startup and there's the code box and then there's the. The browser box. I think at some point they will start clashing there. There's always the question of the, are you a point solution or are you the sort of all in one? And I think the point solutions tend to win quickly, but then the only ones have a very tight cohesive experience. Yeah. Let's talk about just the hard problems of browser base you have on your website, which is beautiful. Thank you. Was there an agency that you used for that? Yeah. Herb.paris.Paul [00:11:11]: They're amazing. Herb.paris. Yeah. It's H-E-R-V-E. I highly recommend for developers. Developer tools, founders to work with consumer agencies because they end up building beautiful things and the Parisians know how to build beautiful interfaces. So I got to give prep.swyx [00:11:24]: And chat apps, apparently are, they are very fast. Oh yeah. The Mistral chat. Yeah. Mistral. Yeah.Paul [00:11:31]: Late chat.swyx [00:11:31]: Late chat. And then your videos as well, it was professionally shot, right? The series A video. Yeah.Alessio [00:11:36]: Nico did the videos. He's amazing. Not the initial video that you shot at the new one. First one was Austin.Paul [00:11:41]: Another, another video pretty surprised. But yeah, I mean, like, I think when you think about how you talk about your company. You have to think about the way you present yourself. It's, you know, as a developer, you think you evaluate a company based on like the API reliability and the P 95, but a lot of developers say, is the website good? Is the message clear? Do I like trust this founder? I'm building my whole feature on. So I've tried to nail that as well as like the reliability of the infrastructure. You're right. It's very hard. And there's a lot of kind of foot guns that you run into when running headless browsers at scale. Right.Competing with Existing Headless Browser Solutionsswyx [00:12:10]: So let's pick one. You have eight features here. Seamless integration. Scalability. Fast or speed. Secure. Observable. Stealth. That's interesting. Extensible and developer first. What comes to your mind as like the top two, three hardest ones? Yeah.Running headless browsers at scalePaul [00:12:26]: I think just running headless browsers at scale is like the hardest one. And maybe can I nerd out for a second? Is that okay? I heard this is a technical audience, so I'll talk to the other nerds. Whoa. They were listening. Yeah. They're upset. They're ready. The AGI is angry. Okay. So. So how do you run a browser in the cloud? Let's start with that, right? So let's say you're using a popular browser automation framework like Puppeteer, Playwright, and Selenium. Maybe you've written a code, some code locally on your computer that opens up Google. It finds the search bar and then types in, you know, search for Latent Space and hits the search button. That script works great locally. You can see the little browser open up. You want to take that to production. You want to run the script in a cloud environment. So when your laptop is closed, your browser is doing something. The browser is doing something. Well, I, we use Amazon. You can see the little browser open up. You know, the first thing I'd reach for is probably like some sort of serverless infrastructure. I would probably try and deploy on a Lambda. But Chrome itself is too big to run on a Lambda. It's over 250 megabytes. So you can't easily start it on a Lambda. So you maybe have to use something like Lambda layers to squeeze it in there. Maybe use a different Chromium build that's lighter. And you get it on the Lambda. Great. It works. But it runs super slowly. It's because Lambdas are very like resource limited. They only run like with one vCPU. You can run one process at a time. Remember, Chromium is super beefy. It's barely running on my MacBook Air. I'm still downloading it from a pre-run. Yeah, from the test earlier, right? I'm joking. But it's big, you know? So like Lambda, it just won't work really well. Maybe it'll work, but you need something faster. Your users want something faster. Okay. Well, let's put it on a beefier instance. Let's get an EC2 server running. Let's throw Chromium on there. Great. Okay. I can, that works well with one user. But what if I want to run like 10 Chromium instances, one for each of my users? Okay. Well, I might need two EC2 instances. Maybe 10. All of a sudden, you have multiple EC2 instances. This sounds like a problem for Kubernetes and Docker, right? Now, all of a sudden, you're using ECS or EKS, the Kubernetes or container solutions by Amazon. You're spending up and down containers, and you're spending a whole engineer's time on kind of maintaining this stateful distributed system. Those are some of the worst systems to run because when it's a stateful distributed system, it means that you are bound by the connections to that thing. You have to keep the browser open while someone is working with it, right? That's just a painful architecture to run. And there's all this other little gotchas with Chromium, like Chromium, which is the open source version of Chrome, by the way. You have to install all these fonts. You want emojis working in your browsers because your vision model is looking for the emoji. You need to make sure you have the emoji fonts. You need to make sure you have all the right extensions configured, like, oh, do you want ad blocking? How do you configure that? How do you actually record all these browser sessions? Like it's a headless browser. You can't look at it. So you need to have some sort of observability. Maybe you're recording videos and storing those somewhere. It all kind of adds up to be this just giant monster piece of your project when all you wanted to do was run a lot of browsers in production for this little script to go to google.com and search. And when I see a complex distributed system, I see an opportunity to build a great infrastructure company. And we really abstract that away with Browserbase where our customers can use these existing frameworks, Playwright, Publisher, Selenium, or our own stagehand and connect to our browsers in a serverless-like way. And control them, and then just disconnect when they're done. And they don't have to think about the complex distributed system behind all of that. They just get a browser running anywhere, anytime. Really easy to connect to.swyx [00:15:55]: I'm sure you have questions. My standard question with anything, so essentially you're a serverless browser company, and there's been other serverless things that I'm familiar with in the past, serverless GPUs, serverless website hosting. That's where I come from with Netlify. One question is just like, you promised to spin up thousands of servers. You promised to spin up thousands of browsers in milliseconds. I feel like there's no real solution that does that yet. And I'm just kind of curious how. The only solution I know, which is to kind of keep a kind of warm pool of servers around, which is expensive, but maybe not so expensive because it's just CPUs. So I'm just like, you know. Yeah.Browsers as a Core Primitive in AI InfrastructurePaul [00:16:36]: You nailed it, right? I mean, how do you offer a serverless-like experience with something that is clearly not serverless, right? And the answer is, you need to be able to run... We run many browsers on single nodes. We use Kubernetes at browser base. So we have many pods that are being scheduled. We have to predictably schedule them up or down. Yes, thousands of browsers in milliseconds is the best case scenario. If you hit us with 10,000 requests, you may hit a slower cold start, right? So we've done a lot of work on predictive scaling and being able to kind of route stuff to different regions where we have multiple regions of browser base where we have different pools available. You can also pick the region you want to go to based on like lower latency, round trip, time latency. It's very important with these types of things. There's a lot of requests going over the wire. So for us, like having a VM like Firecracker powering everything under the hood allows us to be super nimble and spin things up or down really quickly with strong multi-tenancy. But in the end, this is like the complex infrastructural challenges that we have to kind of deal with at browser base. And we have a lot more stuff on our roadmap to allow customers to have more levers to pull to exchange, do you want really fast browser startup times or do you want really low costs? And if you're willing to be more flexible on that, we may be able to kind of like work better for your use cases.swyx [00:17:44]: Since you used Firecracker, shouldn't Fargate do that for you or did you have to go lower level than that? We had to go lower level than that.Paul [00:17:51]: I find this a lot with Fargate customers, which is alarming for Fargate. We used to be a giant Fargate customer. Actually, the first version of browser base was ECS and Fargate. And unfortunately, it's a great product. I think we were actually the largest Fargate customer in our region for a little while. No, what? Yeah, seriously. And unfortunately, it's a great product, but I think if you're an infrastructure company, you actually have to have a deeper level of control over these primitives. I think it's the same thing is true with databases. We've used other database providers and I think-swyx [00:18:21]: Yeah, serverless Postgres.Paul [00:18:23]: Shocker. When you're an infrastructure company, you're on the hook if any provider has an outage. And I can't tell my customers like, hey, we went down because so-and-so went down. That's not acceptable. So for us, we've really moved to bringing things internally. It's kind of opposite of what we preach. We tell our customers, don't build this in-house, but then we're like, we build a lot of stuff in-house. But I think it just really depends on what is in the critical path. We try and have deep ownership of that.Alessio [00:18:46]: On the distributed location side, how does that work for the web where you might get sort of different content in different locations, but the customer is expecting, you know, if you're in the US, I'm expecting the US version. But if you're spinning up my browser in France, I might get the French version. Yeah.Paul [00:19:02]: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, generally, like on the localization, there is a thing called locale in the browser. You can set like what your locale is. If you're like in the ENUS browser or not, but some things do IP, IP based routing. And in that case, you may want to have a proxy. Like let's say you're running something in the, in Europe, but you want to make sure you're showing up from the US. You may want to use one of our proxy features so you can turn on proxies to say like, make sure these connections always come from the United States, which is necessary too, because when you're browsing the web, you're coming from like a, you know, data center IP, and that can make things a lot harder to browse web. So we do have kind of like this proxy super network. Yeah. We have a proxy for you based on where you're going, so you can reliably automate the web. But if you get scheduled in Europe, that doesn't happen as much. We try and schedule you as close to, you know, your origin that you're trying to go to. But generally you have control over the regions you can put your browsers in. So you can specify West one or East one or Europe. We only have one region of Europe right now, actually. Yeah.Alessio [00:19:55]: What's harder, the browser or the proxy? I feel like to me, it feels like actually proxying reliably at scale. It's much harder than spending up browsers at scale. I'm curious. It's all hard.Paul [00:20:06]: It's layers of hard, right? Yeah. I think it's different levels of hard. I think the thing with the proxy infrastructure is that we work with many different web proxy providers and some are better than others. Some have good days, some have bad days. And our customers who've built browser infrastructure on their own, they have to go and deal with sketchy actors. Like first they figure out their own browser infrastructure and then they got to go buy a proxy. And it's like you can pay in Bitcoin and it just kind of feels a little sus, right? It's like you're buying drugs when you're trying to get a proxy online. We have like deep relationships with these counterparties. We're able to audit them and say, is this proxy being sourced ethically? Like it's not running on someone's TV somewhere. Is it free range? Yeah. Free range organic proxies, right? Right. We do a level of diligence. We're SOC 2. So we have to understand what is going on here. But then we're able to make sure that like we route around proxy providers not working. There's proxy providers who will just, the proxy will stop working all of a sudden. And then if you don't have redundant proxying on your own browsers, that's hard down for you or you may get some serious impacts there. With us, like we intelligently know, hey, this proxy is not working. Let's go to this one. And you can kind of build a network of multiple providers to really guarantee the best uptime for our customers. Yeah. So you don't own any proxies? We don't own any proxies. You're right. The team has been saying who wants to like take home a little proxy server, but not yet. We're not there yet. You know?swyx [00:21:25]: It's a very mature market. I don't think you should build that yourself. Like you should just be a super customer of them. Yeah. Scraping, I think, is the main use case for that. I guess. Well, that leads us into CAPTCHAs and also off, but let's talk about CAPTCHAs. You had a little spiel that you wanted to talk about CAPTCHA stuff.Challenges of Scaling Browser InfrastructurePaul [00:21:43]: Oh, yeah. I was just, I think a lot of people ask, if you're thinking about proxies, you're thinking about CAPTCHAs too. I think it's the same thing. You can go buy CAPTCHA solvers online, but it's the same buying experience. It's some sketchy website, you have to integrate it. It's not fun to buy these things and you can't really trust that the docs are bad. What Browserbase does is we integrate a bunch of different CAPTCHAs. We do some stuff in-house, but generally we just integrate with a bunch of known vendors and continually monitor and maintain these things and say, is this working or not? Can we route around it or not? These are CAPTCHA solvers. CAPTCHA solvers, yeah. Not CAPTCHA providers, CAPTCHA solvers. Yeah, sorry. CAPTCHA solvers. We really try and make sure all of that works for you. I think as a dev, if I'm buying infrastructure, I want it all to work all the time and it's important for us to provide that experience by making sure everything does work and monitoring it on our own. Yeah. Right now, the world of CAPTCHAs is tricky. I think AI agents in particular are very much ahead of the internet infrastructure. CAPTCHAs are designed to block all types of bots, but there are now good bots and bad bots. I think in the future, CAPTCHAs will be able to identify who a good bot is, hopefully via some sort of KYC. For us, we've been very lucky. We have very little to no known abuse of Browserbase because we really look into who we work with. And for certain types of CAPTCHA solving, we only allow them on certain types of plans because we want to make sure that we can know what people are doing, what their use cases are. And that's really allowed us to try and be an arbiter of good bots, which is our long term goal. I want to build great relationships with people like Cloudflare so we can agree, hey, here are these acceptable bots. We'll identify them for you and make sure we flag when they come to your website. This is a good bot, you know?Alessio [00:23:23]: I see. And Cloudflare said they want to do more of this. So they're going to set by default, if they think you're an AI bot, they're going to reject. I'm curious if you think this is something that is going to be at the browser level or I mean, the DNS level with Cloudflare seems more where it should belong. But I'm curious how you think about it.Paul [00:23:40]: I think the web's going to change. You know, I think that the Internet as we have it right now is going to change. And we all need to just accept that the cat is out of the bag. And instead of kind of like wishing the Internet was like it was in the 2000s, we can have free content line that wouldn't be scraped. It's just it's not going to happen. And instead, we should think about like, one, how can we change? How can we change the models of, you know, information being published online so people can adequately commercialize it? But two, how do we rebuild applications that expect that AI agents are going to log in on their behalf? Those are the things that are going to allow us to kind of like identify good and bad bots. And I think the team at Clerk has been doing a really good job with this on the authentication side. I actually think that auth is the biggest thing that will prevent agents from accessing stuff, not captchas. And I think there will be agent auth in the future. I don't know if it's going to happen from an individual company, but actually authentication providers that have a, you know, hidden login as agent feature, which will then you put in your email, you'll get a push notification, say like, hey, your browser-based agent wants to log into your Airbnb. You can approve that and then the agent can proceed. That really circumvents the need for captchas or logging in as you and sharing your password. I think agent auth is going to be one way we identify good bots going forward. And I think a lot of this captcha solving stuff is really short-term problems as the internet kind of reorients itself around how it's going to work with agents browsing the web, just like people do. Yeah.Managing Distributed Browser Locations and Proxiesswyx [00:24:59]: Stitch recently was on Hacker News for talking about agent experience, AX, which is a thing that Netlify is also trying to clone and coin and talk about. And we've talked about this on our previous episodes before in a sense that I actually think that's like maybe the only part of the tech stack that needs to be kind of reinvented for agents. Everything else can stay the same, CLIs, APIs, whatever. But auth, yeah, we need agent auth. And it's mostly like short-lived, like it should not, it should be a distinct, identity from the human, but paired. I almost think like in the same way that every social network should have your main profile and then your alt accounts or your Finsta, it's almost like, you know, every, every human token should be paired with the agent token and the agent token can go and do stuff on behalf of the human token, but not be presumed to be the human. Yeah.Paul [00:25:48]: It's like, it's, it's actually very similar to OAuth is what I'm thinking. And, you know, Thread from Stitch is an investor, Colin from Clerk, Octaventures, all investors in browser-based because like, I hope they solve this because they'll make browser-based submission more possible. So we don't have to overcome all these hurdles, but I think it will be an OAuth-like flow where an agent will ask to log in as you, you'll approve the scopes. Like it can book an apartment on Airbnb, but it can't like message anybody. And then, you know, the agent will have some sort of like role-based access control within an application. Yeah. I'm excited for that.swyx [00:26:16]: The tricky part is just, there's one, one layer of delegation here, which is like, you're authoring my user's user or something like that. I don't know if that's tricky or not. Does that make sense? Yeah.Paul [00:26:25]: You know, actually at Twilio, I worked on the login identity and access. Management teams, right? So like I built Twilio's login page.swyx [00:26:31]: You were an intern on that team and then you became the lead in two years? Yeah.Paul [00:26:34]: Yeah. I started as an intern in 2016 and then I was the tech lead of that team. How? That's not normal. I didn't have a life. He's not normal. Look at this guy. I didn't have a girlfriend. I just loved my job. I don't know. I applied to 500 internships for my first job and I got rejected from every single one of them except for Twilio and then eventually Amazon. And they took a shot on me and like, I was getting paid money to write code, which was my dream. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very lucky that like this coding thing worked out because I was going to be doing it regardless. And yeah, I was able to kind of spend a lot of time on a team that was growing at a company that was growing. So it informed a lot of this stuff here. I think these are problems that have been solved with like the SAML protocol with SSO. I think it's a really interesting stuff with like WebAuthn, like these different types of authentication, like schemes that you can use to authenticate people. The tooling is all there. It just needs to be tweaked a little bit to work for agents. And I think the fact that there are companies that are already. Providing authentication as a service really sets it up. Well, the thing that's hard is like reinventing the internet for agents. We don't want to rebuild the internet. That's an impossible task. And I think people often say like, well, we'll have this second layer of APIs built for agents. I'm like, we will for the top use cases, but instead of we can just tweak the internet as is, which is on the authentication side, I think we're going to be the dumb ones going forward. Unfortunately, I think AI is going to be able to do a lot of the tasks that we do online, which means that it will be able to go to websites, click buttons on our behalf and log in on our behalf too. So with this kind of like web agent future happening, I think with some small structural changes, like you said, it feels like it could all slot in really nicely with the existing internet.Handling CAPTCHAs and Agent Authenticationswyx [00:28:08]: There's one more thing, which is the, your live view iframe, which lets you take, take control. Yeah. Obviously very key for operator now, but like, was, is there anything interesting technically there or that the people like, well, people always want this.Paul [00:28:21]: It was really hard to build, you know, like, so, okay. Headless browsers, you don't see them, right. They're running. They're running in a cloud somewhere. You can't like look at them. And I just want to really make, it's a weird name. I wish we came up with a better name for this thing, but you can't see them. Right. But customers don't trust AI agents, right. At least the first pass. So what we do with our live view is that, you know, when you use browser base, you can actually embed a live view of the browser running in the cloud for your customer to see it working. And that's what the first reason is the build trust, like, okay, so I have this script. That's going to go automate a website. I can embed it into my web application via an iframe and my customer can watch. I think. And then we added two way communication. So now not only can you watch the browser kind of being operated by AI, if you want to pause and actually click around type within this iframe that's controlling a browser, that's also possible. And this is all thanks to some of the lower level protocol, which is called the Chrome DevTools protocol. It has a API called start screencast, and you can also send mouse clicks and button clicks to a remote browser. And this is all embeddable within iframes. You have a browser within a browser, yo. And then you simulate the screen, the click on the other side. Exactly. And this is really nice often for, like, let's say, a capture that can't be solved. You saw this with Operator, you know, Operator actually uses a different approach. They use VNC. So, you know, you're able to see, like, you're seeing the whole window here. What we're doing is something a little lower level with the Chrome DevTools protocol. It's just PNGs being streamed over the wire. But the same thing is true, right? Like, hey, I'm running a window. Pause. Can you do something in this window? Human. Okay, great. Resume. Like sometimes 2FA tokens. Like if you get that text message, you might need a person to type that in. Web agents need human-in-the-loop type workflows still. You still need a person to interact with the browser. And building a UI to proxy that is kind of hard. You may as well just show them the whole browser and say, hey, can you finish this up for me? And then let the AI proceed on afterwards. Is there a future where I stream my current desktop to browser base? I don't think so. I think we're very much cloud infrastructure. Yeah. You know, but I think a lot of the stuff we're doing, we do want to, like, build tools. Like, you know, we'll talk about the stage and, you know, web agent framework in a second. But, like, there's a case where a lot of people are going desktop first for, you know, consumer use. And I think cloud is doing a lot of this, where I expect to see, you know, MCPs really oriented around the cloud desktop app for a reason, right? Like, I think a lot of these tools are going to run on your computer because it makes... I think it's breaking out. People are putting it on a server. Oh, really? Okay. Well, sweet. We'll see. We'll see that. I was surprised, though, wasn't I? I think that the browser company, too, with Dia Browser, it runs on your machine. You know, it's going to be...swyx [00:30:50]: What is it?Paul [00:30:51]: So, Dia Browser, as far as I understand... I used to use Arc. Yeah. I haven't used Arc. But I'm a big fan of the browser company. I think they're doing a lot of cool stuff in consumer. As far as I understand, it's a browser where you have a sidebar where you can, like, chat with it and it can control the local browser on your machine. So, if you imagine, like, what a consumer web agent is, which it lives alongside your browser, I think Google Chrome has Project Marina, I think. I almost call it Project Marinara for some reason. I don't know why. It's...swyx [00:31:17]: No, I think it's someone really likes the Waterworld. Oh, I see. The classic Kevin Costner. Yeah.Paul [00:31:22]: Okay. Project Marinara is a similar thing to the Dia Browser, in my mind, as far as I understand it. You have a browser that has an AI interface that will take over your mouse and keyboard and control the browser for you. Great for consumer use cases. But if you're building applications that rely on a browser and it's more part of a greater, like, AI app experience, you probably need something that's more like infrastructure, not a consumer app.swyx [00:31:44]: Just because I have explored a little bit in this area, do people want branching? So, I have the state. Of whatever my browser's in. And then I want, like, 100 clones of this state. Do people do that? Or...Paul [00:31:56]: People don't do it currently. Yeah. But it's definitely something we're thinking about. I think the idea of forking a browser is really cool. Technically, kind of hard. We're starting to see this in code execution, where people are, like, forking some, like, code execution, like, processes or forking some tool calls or branching tool calls. Haven't seen it at the browser level yet. But it makes sense. Like, if an AI agent is, like, using a website and it's not sure what path it wants to take to crawl this website. To find the information it's looking for. It would make sense for it to explore both paths in parallel. And that'd be a very, like... A road not taken. Yeah. And hopefully find the right answer. And then say, okay, this was actually the right one. And memorize that. And go there in the future. On the roadmap. For sure. Don't make my roadmap, please. You know?Alessio [00:32:37]: How do you actually do that? Yeah. How do you fork? I feel like the browser is so stateful for so many things.swyx [00:32:42]: Serialize the state. Restore the state. I don't know.Paul [00:32:44]: So, it's one of the reasons why we haven't done it yet. It's hard. You know? Like, to truly fork, it's actually quite difficult. The naive way is to open the same page in a new tab and then, like, hope that it's at the same thing. But if you have a form halfway filled, you may have to, like, take the whole, you know, container. Pause it. All the memory. Duplicate it. Restart it from there. It could be very slow. So, we haven't found a thing. Like, the easy thing to fork is just, like, copy the page object. You know? But I think there needs to be something a little bit more robust there. Yeah.swyx [00:33:12]: So, MorphLabs has this infinite branch thing. Like, wrote a custom fork of Linux or something that let them save the system state and clone it. MorphLabs, hit me up. I'll be a customer. Yeah. That's the only. I think that's the only way to do it. Yeah. Like, unless Chrome has some special API for you. Yeah.Paul [00:33:29]: There's probably something we'll reverse engineer one day. I don't know. Yeah.Alessio [00:33:32]: Let's talk about StageHand, the AI web browsing framework. You have three core components, Observe, Extract, and Act. Pretty clean landing page. What was the idea behind making a framework? Yeah.Stagehand: AI web browsing frameworkPaul [00:33:43]: So, there's three frameworks that are very popular or already exist, right? Puppeteer, Playwright, Selenium. Those are for building hard-coded scripts to control websites. And as soon as I started to play with LLMs plus browsing, I caught myself, you know, code-genning Playwright code to control a website. I would, like, take the DOM. I'd pass it to an LLM. I'd say, can you generate the Playwright code to click the appropriate button here? And it would do that. And I was like, this really should be part of the frameworks themselves. And I became really obsessed with SDKs that take natural language as part of, like, the API input. And that's what StageHand is. StageHand exposes three APIs, and it's a super set of Playwright. So, if you go to a page, you may want to take an action, click on the button, fill in the form, etc. That's what the act command is for. You may want to extract some data. This one takes a natural language, like, extract the winner of the Super Bowl from this page. You can give it a Zod schema, so it returns a structured output. And then maybe you're building an API. You can do an agent loop, and you want to kind of see what actions are possible on this page before taking one. You can do observe. So, you can observe the actions on the page, and it will generate a list of actions. You can guide it, like, give me actions on this page related to buying an item. And you can, like, buy it now, add to cart, view shipping options, and pass that to an LLM, an agent loop, to say, what's the appropriate action given this high-level goal? So, StageHand isn't a web agent. It's a framework for building web agents. And we think that agent loops are actually pretty close to the application layer because every application probably has different goals or different ways it wants to take steps. I don't think I've seen a generic. Maybe you guys are the experts here. I haven't seen, like, a really good AI agent framework here. Everyone kind of has their own special sauce, right? I see a lot of developers building their own agent loops, and they're using tools. And I view StageHand as the browser tool. So, we expose act, extract, observe. Your agent can call these tools. And from that, you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry about generating playwright code performantly. You don't have to worry about running it. You can kind of just integrate these three tool calls into your agent loop and reliably automate the web.swyx [00:35:48]: A special shout-out to Anirudh, who I met at your dinner, who I think listens to the pod. Yeah. Hey, Anirudh.Paul [00:35:54]: Anirudh's a man. He's a StageHand guy.swyx [00:35:56]: I mean, the interesting thing about each of these APIs is they're kind of each startup. Like, specifically extract, you know, Firecrawler is extract. There's, like, Expand AI. There's a whole bunch of, like, extract companies. They just focus on extract. I'm curious. Like, I feel like you guys are going to collide at some point. Like, right now, it's friendly. Everyone's in a blue ocean. At some point, it's going to be valuable enough that there's some turf battle here. I don't think you have a dog in a fight. I think you can mock extract to use an external service if they're better at it than you. But it's just an observation that, like, in the same way that I see each option, each checkbox in the side of custom GBTs becoming a startup or each box in the Karpathy chart being a startup. Like, this is also becoming a thing. Yeah.Paul [00:36:41]: I mean, like, so the way StageHand works is that it's MIT-licensed, completely open source. You bring your own API key to your LLM of choice. You could choose your LLM. We don't make any money off of the extract or really. We only really make money if you choose to run it with our browser. You don't have to. You can actually use your own browser, a local browser. You know, StageHand is completely open source for that reason. And, yeah, like, I think if you're building really complex web scraping workflows, I don't know if StageHand is the tool for you. I think it's really more if you're building an AI agent that needs a few general tools or if it's doing a lot of, like, web automation-intensive work. But if you're building a scraping company, StageHand is not your thing. You probably want something that's going to, like, get HTML content, you know, convert that to Markdown, query it. That's not what StageHand does. StageHand is more about reliability. I think we focus a lot on reliability and less so on cost optimization and speed at this point.swyx [00:37:33]: I actually feel like StageHand, so the way that StageHand works, it's like, you know, page.act, click on the quick start. Yeah. It's kind of the integration test for the code that you would have to write anyway, like the Puppeteer code that you have to write anyway. And when the page structure changes, because it always does, then this is still the test. This is still the test that I would have to write. Yeah. So it's kind of like a testing framework that doesn't need implementation detail.Paul [00:37:56]: Well, yeah. I mean, Puppeteer, Playwright, and Slenderman were all designed as testing frameworks, right? Yeah. And now people are, like, hacking them together to automate the web. I would say, and, like, maybe this is, like, me being too specific. But, like, when I write tests, if the page structure changes. Without me knowing, I want that test to fail. So I don't know if, like, AI, like, regenerating that. Like, people are using StageHand for testing. But it's more for, like, usability testing, not, like, testing of, like, does the front end, like, has it changed or not. Okay. But generally where we've seen people, like, really, like, take off is, like, if they're using, you know, something. If they want to build a feature in their application that's kind of like Operator or Deep Research, they're using StageHand to kind of power that tool calling in their own agent loop. Okay. Cool.swyx [00:38:37]: So let's go into Operator, the first big agent launch of the year from OpenAI. Seems like they have a whole bunch scheduled. You were on break and your phone blew up. What's your just general view of computer use agents is what they're calling it. The overall category before we go into Open Operator, just the overall promise of Operator. I will observe that I tried it once. It was okay. And I never tried it again.OpenAI's Operator and computer use agentsPaul [00:38:58]: That tracks with my experience, too. Like, I'm a huge fan of the OpenAI team. Like, I think that I do not view Operator as the company. I'm not a company killer for browser base at all. I think it actually shows people what's possible. I think, like, computer use models make a lot of sense. And I'm actually most excited about computer use models is, like, their ability to, like, really take screenshots and reasoning and output steps. I think that using mouse click or mouse coordinates, I've seen that proved to be less reliable than I would like. And I just wonder if that's the right form factor. What we've done with our framework is anchor it to the DOM itself, anchor it to the actual item. So, like, if it's clicking on something, it's clicking on that thing, you know? Like, it's more accurate. No matter where it is. Yeah, exactly. Because it really ties in nicely. And it can handle, like, the whole viewport in one go, whereas, like, Operator can only handle what it sees. Can you hover? Is hovering a thing that you can do? I don't know if we expose it as a tool directly, but I'm sure there's, like, an API for hovering. Like, move mouse to this position. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you can trigger hover, like, via, like, the JavaScript on the DOM itself. But, no, I think, like, when we saw computer use, everyone's eyes lit up because they realized, like, wow, like, AI is going to actually automate work for people. And I think seeing that kind of happen from both of the labs, and I'm sure we're going to see more labs launch computer use models, I'm excited to see all the stuff that people build with it. I think that I'd love to see computer use power, like, controlling a browser on browser base. And I think, like, Open Operator, which was, like, our open source version of OpenAI's Operator, was our first take on, like, how can we integrate these models into browser base? And we handle the infrastructure and let the labs do the models. I don't have a sense that Operator will be released as an API. I don't know. Maybe it will. I'm curious to see how well that works because I think it's going to be really hard for a company like OpenAI to do things like support CAPTCHA solving or, like, have proxies. Like, I think it's hard for them structurally. Imagine this New York Times headline, OpenAI CAPTCHA solving. Like, that would be a pretty bad headline, this New York Times headline. Browser base solves CAPTCHAs. No one cares. No one cares. And, like, our investors are bored. Like, we're all okay with this, you know? We're building this company knowing that the CAPTCHA solving is short-lived until we figure out how to authenticate good bots. I think it's really hard for a company like OpenAI, who has this brand that's so, so good, to balance with, like, the icky parts of web automation, which it can be kind of complex to solve. I'm sure OpenAI knows who to call whenever they need you. Yeah, right. I'm sure they'll have a great partnership.Alessio [00:41:23]: And is Open Operator just, like, a marketing thing for you? Like, how do you think about resource allocation? So, you can spin this up very quickly. And now there's all this, like, open deep research, just open all these things that people are building. We started it, you know. You're the original Open. We're the original Open operator, you know? Is it just, hey, look, this is a demo, but, like, we'll help you build out an actual product for yourself? Like, are you interested in going more of a product route? That's kind of the OpenAI way, right? They started as a model provider and then…Paul [00:41:53]: Yeah, we're not interested in going the product route yet. I view Open Operator as a model provider. It's a reference project, you know? Let's show people how to build these things using the infrastructure and models that are out there. And that's what it is. It's, like, Open Operator is very simple. It's an agent loop. It says, like, take a high-level goal, break it down into steps, use tool calling to accomplish those steps. It takes screenshots and feeds those screenshots into an LLM with the step to generate the right action. It uses stagehand under the hood to actually execute this action. It doesn't use a computer use model. And it, like, has a nice interface using the live view that we talked about, the iframe, to embed that into an application. So I felt like people on launch day wanted to figure out how to build their own version of this. And we turned that around really quickly to show them. And I hope we do that with other things like deep research. We don't have a deep research launch yet. I think David from AOMNI actually has an amazing open deep research that he launched. It has, like, 10K GitHub stars now. So he's crushing that. But I think if people want to build these features natively into their application, they need good reference projects. And I think Open Operator is a good example of that.swyx [00:42:52]: I don't know. Actually, I'm actually pretty bullish on API-driven operator. Because that's the only way that you can sort of, like, once it's reliable enough, obviously. And now we're nowhere near. But, like, give it five years. It'll happen, you know. And then you can sort of spin this up and browsers are working in the background and you don't necessarily have to know. And it just is booking restaurants for you, whatever. I can definitely see that future happening. I had this on the landing page here. This might be a slightly out of order. But, you know, you have, like, sort of three use cases for browser base. Open Operator. Or this is the operator sort of use case. It's kind of like the workflow automation use case. And it completes with UiPath in the sort of RPA category. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would agree with that. And then there's Agents we talked about already. And web scraping, which I imagine would be the bulk of your workload right now, right?Paul [00:43:40]: No, not at all. I'd say actually, like, the majority is browser automation. We're kind of expensive for web scraping. Like, I think that if you're building a web scraping product, if you need to do occasional web scraping or you have to do web scraping that works every single time, you want to use browser automation. Yeah. You want to use browser-based. But if you're building web scraping workflows, what you should do is have a waterfall. You should have the first request is a curl to the website. See if you can get it without even using a browser. And then the second request may be, like, a scraping-specific API. There's, like, a thousand scraping APIs out there that you can use to try and get data. Scraping B. Scraping B is a great example, right? Yeah. And then, like, if those two don't work, bring out the heavy hitter. Like, browser-based will 100% work, right? It will load the page in a real browser, hydrate it. I see.swyx [00:44:21]: Because a lot of people don't render to JS.swyx [00:44:25]: Yeah, exactly.Paul [00:44:26]: So, I mean, the three big use cases, right? Like, you know, automation, web data collection, and then, you know, if you're building anything agentic that needs, like, a browser tool, you want to use browser-based.Alessio [00:44:35]: Is there any use case that, like, you were super surprised by that people might not even think about? Oh, yeah. Or is it, yeah, anything that you can share? The long tail is crazy. Yeah.Surprising use cases of BrowserbasePaul [00:44:44]: One of the case studies on our website that I think is the most interesting is this company called Benny. So, the way that it works is if you're on food stamps in the United States, you can actually get rebates if you buy certain things. Yeah. You buy some vegetables. You submit your receipt to the government. They'll give you a little rebate back. Say, hey, thanks for buying vegetables. It's good for you. That process of submitting that receipt is very painful. And the way Benny works is you use their app to take a photo of your receipt, and then Benny will go submit that receipt for you and then deposit the money into your account. That's actually using no AI at all. It's all, like, hard-coded scripts. They maintain the scripts. They've been doing a great job. And they build this amazing consumer app. But it's an example of, like, all these, like, tedious workflows that people have to do to kind of go about their business. And they're doing it for the sake of their day-to-day lives. And I had never known about, like, food stamp rebates or the complex forms you have to do to fill them. But the world is powered by millions and millions of tedious forms, visas. You know, Emirate Lighthouse is a customer, right? You know, they do the O1 visa. Millions and millions of forms are taking away humans' time. And I hope that Browserbase can help power software that automates away the web forms that we don't need anymore. Yeah.swyx [00:45:49]: I mean, I'm very supportive of that. I mean, forms. I do think, like, government itself is a big part of it. I think the government itself should embrace AI more to do more sort of human-friendly form filling. Mm-hmm. But I'm not optimistic. I'm not holding my breath. Yeah. We'll see. Okay. I think I'm about to zoom out. I have a little brief thing on computer use, and then we can talk about founder stuff, which is, I tend to think of developer tooling markets in impossible triangles, where everyone starts in a niche, and then they start to branch out. So I already hinted at a little bit of this, right? We mentioned more. We mentioned E2B. We mentioned Firecrawl. And then there's Browserbase. So there's, like, all this stuff of, like, have serverless virtual computer that you give to an agent and let them do stuff with it. And there's various ways of connecting it to the internet. You can just connect to a search API, like SERP API, whatever other, like, EXA is another one. That's what you're searching. You can also have a JSON markdown extractor, which is Firecrawl. Or you can have a virtual browser like Browserbase, or you can have a virtual machine like Morph. And then there's also maybe, like, a virtual sort of code environment, like Code Interpreter. So, like, there's just, like, a bunch of different ways to tackle the problem of give a computer to an agent. And I'm just kind of wondering if you see, like, everyone's just, like, happily coexisting in their respective niches. And as a developer, I just go and pick, like, a shopping basket of one of each. Or do you think that you eventually, people will collide?Future of browser automation and market competitionPaul [00:47:18]: I think that currently it's not a zero-sum market. Like, I think we're talking about... I think we're talking about all of knowledge work that people do that can be automated online. All of these, like, trillions of hours that happen online where people are working. And I think that there's so much software to be built that, like, I tend not to think about how these companies will collide. I just try to solve the problem as best as I can and make this specific piece of infrastructure, which I think is an important primitive, the best I possibly can. And yeah. I think there's players that are actually going to like it. I think there's players that are going to launch, like, over-the-top, you know, platforms, like agent platforms that have all these tools built in, right? Like, who's building the rippling for agent tools that has the search tool, the browser tool, the operating system tool, right? There are some. There are some. There are some, right? And I think in the end, what I have seen as my time as a developer, and I look at all the favorite tools that I have, is that, like, for tools and primitives with sufficient levels of complexity, you need to have a solution that's really bespoke to that primitive, you know? And I am sufficiently convinced that the browser is complex enough to deserve a primitive. Obviously, I have to. I'm the founder of BrowserBase, right? I'm talking my book. But, like, I think maybe I can give you one spicy take against, like, maybe just whole OS running. I think that when I look at computer use when it first came out, I saw that the majority of use cases for computer use were controlling a browser. And do we really need to run an entire operating system just to control a browser? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary. You know, BrowserBase can run browsers for way cheaper than you can if you're running a full-fledged OS with a GUI, you know, operating system. And I think that's just an advantage of the browser. It is, like, browsers are little OSs, and you can run them very efficiently if you orchestrate it well. And I think that allows us to offer 90% of the, you know, functionality in the platform needed at 10% of the cost of running a full OS. Yeah.Open Operator: Browserbase's Open-Source Alternativeswyx [00:49:16]: I definitely see the logic in that. There's a Mark Andreessen quote. I don't know if you know this one. Where he basically observed that the browser is turning the operating system into a poorly debugged set of device drivers, because most of the apps are moved from the OS to the browser. So you can just run browsers.Paul [00:49:31]: There's a place for OSs, too. Like, I think that there are some applications that only run on Windows operating systems. And Eric from pig.dev in this upcoming YC batch, or last YC batch, like, he's building all run tons of Windows operating systems for you to control with your agent. And like, there's some legacy EHR systems that only run on Internet-controlled systems. Yeah.Paul [00:49:54]: I think that's it. I think, like, there are use cases for specific operating systems for specific legacy software. And like, I'm excited to see what he does with that. I just wanted to give a shout out to the pig.dev website.swyx [00:50:06]: The pigs jump when you click on them. Yeah. That's great.Paul [00:50:08]: Eric, he's the former co-founder of banana.dev, too.swyx [00:50:11]: Oh, that Eric. Yeah. That Eric. Okay. Well, he abandoned bananas for pigs. I hope he doesn't start going around with pigs now.Alessio [00:50:18]: Like he was going around with bananas. A little toy pig. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What else are we missing? I think we covered a lot of, like, the browser-based product history, but. What do you wish people asked you? Yeah.Paul [00:50:29]: I wish people asked me more about, like, what will the future of software look like? Because I think that's really where I've spent a lot of time about why do browser-based. Like, for me, starting a company is like a means of last resort. Like, you shouldn't start a company unless you absolutely have to. And I remain convinced that the future of software is software that you're going to click a button and it's going to do stuff on your behalf. Right now, software. You click a button and it maybe, like, calls it back an API and, like, computes some numbers. It, like, modifies some text, whatever. But the future of software is software using software. So, I may log into my accounting website for my business, click a button, and it's going to go load up my Gmail, search my emails, find the thing, upload the receipt, and then comment it for me. Right? And it may use it using APIs, maybe a browser. I don't know. I think it's a little bit of both. But that's completely different from how we've built software so far. And that's. I think that future of software has different infrastructure requirements. It's going to require different UIs. It's going to require different pieces of infrastructure. I think the browser infrastructure is one piece that fits into that, along with all the other categories you mentioned. So, I think that it's going to require developers to think differently about how they've built software for, you know

In this episode of the PowerShell Podcast, we welcome Greg Martin, a longtime developer and PowerShell enthusiast, who has taken PowerShell beyond system administration and into the realm of game development. Greg shares his journey of building Eldoria, a terminal adventure game written entirely in PowerShell, and how his experience across multiple programming languages influenced his approach. Key topics in this episode include: Building a game in PowerShell – How Greg used PowerShell to create a rich text-based adventure. The power of terminal-based gaming – A brief look into ANSI escape sequences, JSON asset management, and the REPL loop. Greg's programming journey – From C and C++ to PowerShell, game development, and enterprise automation. Lessons in curiosity and career growth – How following your interests can lead to unexpected and rewarding opportunities. Greg also discusses the challenges of structuring a large-scale PowerShell project, how PowerShell's object-oriented features made development easier, and how anyone can start exploring creative projects with PowerShell.Join the conversation:   Bio and links: Gregory Martin is a Senior Linux Engineer, formerly an industrial network designer, IT manager, sysadmin, and may have given a lecture or two at tech conferences. He's an avid programmer with over 20 years of experience, ranging from Windows/Linux Desktop, Web, Android/iOS, Industrial IoT, Linux CLI, and Automation Orchestration. In his spare time, he writes computer games and dabbles with AI technologies. He writes at his blog (themartinmethod.com). Check out Eldoria on Greg's GitHub and explore the game in your own terminal. Read Greg's blog at TheMartinMethod.com for updates on Eldoria and other projects. Join PowerShell Wednesdays every Wednesday at 2 PM EST in the PDQ Discord community (discord.gg/pdq) for live discussions. https://github.com/gregoryfmartin/Eldoria https://github.com/gregoryfmartin/Burnt-Latte https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewplatech/ The PowerShell Podcast: https://pdq.com/the-powershell-podcast The PowerShell Podcast on YouTube: https://youtu.be/0kBrtPsD2EE  

This week the Rust controversy continues, and a kernel maintainer stirs up some political drama on the way out the door. NTSYNC and Wayland HDR finally land... and you can't use them yet. KDE Plasma pushes 6.3 out the door, OBS threatens to sue Fedora, and OpenSUSE surprises us all by moving to SELinux. For tips we have etckeeper for versioning your /etc files, pw-config for querying your Pipewire config, and a more detailed guide to using jq to manipulate JSON data. You can find the show notes at https://bit.ly/4gHNvng and enjoy! Host: Jonathan Bennett Co-Hosts: Rob Campbell and Ken McDonald Download or subscribe to Untitled Linux Show at https://twit.tv/shows/untitled-linux-show Want access to the ad-free video and exclusive features? Become a member of Club TWiT today! https://twit.tv/clubtwit Club TWiT members can discuss this episode and leave feedback in the Club TWiT Discord.

Show NotesMike Bowers, Chief Architect at FairCom, has spent decades navigating the evolution of database technology. In this conversation, he and Robby explore the challenges of maintaining a 40+ year-old codebase, balancing legacy constraints with forward-thinking design, and the realities of technical debt.Mike shares how FairCom transitioned from ISAM-based databases to modern JSON-driven APIs, the trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible document stores, and how software architecture plays a critical role in long-term maintainability. He also explains why human-readable JSON simplifies debugging, how documentation-driven development improves API usability, and why many software teams struggle with refactoring at the right time.Topics covered[00:05:32] The role of software architecture in long-term maintainability[00:10:45] Why FairCom's legacy ISAM technology still matters today[00:14:20] Transitioning to a JSON-based API for modern developers[00:19:40] The challenges of maintaining 40+ years of C code[00:24:10] Technical debt: What it really means and how to manage it[00:28:50] The trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible NoSQL approaches[00:34:00] When to refactor vs. when to start over from scratch[00:38:15] The influence of product management thinking on software architecture[00:42:30] Advice for engineers considering a shift into architecture rolesResources mentionedFairComMike Bowers on LinkedInFairCom on Twitter/XBook Recommendation: The Influential Product Manager by MSc BuceroThanks to Our Sponsor!Need a smoother way to share your team's inbox? Jelly's got you covered!

If you're in SF, join us tomorrow for a fun meetup at CodeGen Night!If you're in NYC, join us for AI Engineer Summit! The Agent Engineering track is now sold out, but 25 tickets remain for AI Leadership and 5 tickets for the workshops. You can see the full schedule of speakers and workshops at https://ai.engineer!It's exceedingly hard to introduce someone like Bret Taylor. We could recite his Wikipedia page, or his extensive work history through Silicon Valley's greatest companies, but everyone else already does that.As a podcast by AI engineers for AI engineers, we had the opportunity to do something a little different. We wanted to dig into what Bret sees from his vantage point at the top of our industry for the last 2 decades, and how that explains the rise of the AI Architect at Sierra, the leading conversational AI/CX platform.“Across our customer base, we are seeing a new role emerge - the role of the AI architect. These leaders are responsible for helping define, manage and evolve their company's AI agent over time. They come from a variety of both technical and business backgrounds, and we think that every company will have one or many AI architects managing their AI agent and related experience.”In our conversation, Bret Taylor confirms the Paul Buchheit legend that he rewrote Google Maps in a weekend, armed with only the help of a then-nascent Google Closure Compiler and no other modern tooling. But what we find remarkable is that he was the PM of Maps, not an engineer, though of course he still identifies as one. We find this theme recurring throughout Bret's career and worldview. We think it is plain as day that AI leadership will have to be hands-on and technical, especially when the ground is shifting as quickly as it is today:“There's a lot of power in combining product and engineering into as few people as possible… few great things have been created by committee.”“If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a maniacal focus on outcomes.”“And I think the reason why is if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of technological breakthroughs required for most business applications. And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful… You kind of know how databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem. "When you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it and the capabilities of the technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself.”This is the first time the difference between technical leadership for “normal” software and for “AI” software was articulated this clearly for us, and we'll be thinking a lot about this going forward. We left a lot of nuggets in the conversation, so we hope you'll just dive in with us (and thank Bret for joining the pod!)Timestamps* 00:00:02 Introductions and Bret Taylor's background* 00:01:23 Bret's experience at Stanford and the dot-com era* 00:04:04 The story of rewriting Google Maps backend* 00:11:06 Early days of interactive web applications at Google* 00:15:26 Discussion on product management and engineering roles* 00:21:00 AI and the future of software development* 00:26:42 Bret's approach to identifying customer needs and building AI companies* 00:32:09 The evolution of business models in the AI era* 00:41:00 The future of programming languages and software development* 00:49:38 Challenges in precisely communicating human intent to machines* 00:56:44 Discussion on Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and its impact* 01:08:51 The future of agent-to-agent communication* 01:14:03 Bret's involvement in the OpenAI leadership crisis* 01:22:11 OpenAI's relationship with Microsoft* 01:23:23 OpenAI's mission and priorities* 01:27:40 Bret's guiding principles for career choices* 01:29:12 Brief discussion on pasta-making* 01:30:47 How Bret keeps up with AI developments* 01:32:15 Exciting research directions in AI* 01:35:19 Closing remarks and hiring at Sierra Transcript[00:02:05] Introduction and Guest Welcome[00:02:05] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host swyx, founder of smol.ai.[00:02:17] swyx: Hey, and today we're super excited to have Bret Taylor join us. Welcome. Thanks for having me. It's a little unreal to have you in the studio.[00:02:25] swyx: I've read about you so much over the years, like even before. Open AI effectively. I mean, I use Google Maps to get here. So like, thank you for everything that you've done. Like, like your story history, like, you know, I think people can find out what your greatest hits have been.[00:02:40] Bret Taylor's Early Career and Education[00:02:40] swyx: How do you usually like to introduce yourself when, you know, you talk about, you summarize your career, like, how do you look at yourself?[00:02:47] Bret: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, we, before we went on the mics here, we're talking about the audience for this podcast being more engineering. And I do think depending on the audience, I'll introduce myself differently because I've had a lot of [00:03:00] corporate and board roles. I probably self identify as an engineer more than anything else though.[00:03:04] Bret: So even when I was. Salesforce, I was coding on the weekends. So I think of myself as an engineer and then all the roles that I do in my career sort of start with that just because I do feel like engineering is sort of a mindset and how I approach most of my life. So I'm an engineer first and that's how I describe myself.[00:03:24] Bret: You majored in computer[00:03:25] swyx: science, like 1998. And, and I was high[00:03:28] Bret: school, actually my, my college degree was Oh, two undergrad. Oh, three masters. Right. That old.[00:03:33] swyx: Yeah. I mean, no, I was going, I was going like 1998 to 2003, but like engineering wasn't as, wasn't a thing back then. Like we didn't have the title of senior engineer, you know, kind of like, it was just.[00:03:44] swyx: You were a programmer, you were a developer, maybe. What was it like in Stanford? Like, what was that feeling like? You know, was it, were you feeling like on the cusp of a great computer revolution? Or was it just like a niche, you know, interest at the time?[00:03:57] Stanford and the Dot-Com Bubble[00:03:57] Bret: Well, I was at Stanford, as you said, from 1998 to [00:04:00] 2002.[00:04:02] Bret: 1998 was near the peak of the dot com bubble. So. This is back in the day where most people that they're coding in the computer lab, just because there was these sun microsystems, Unix boxes there that most of us had to do our assignments on. And every single day there was a. com like buying pizza for everybody.[00:04:20] Bret: I didn't have to like, I got. Free food, like my first two years of university and then the dot com bubble burst in the middle of my college career. And so by the end there was like tumbleweed going to the job fair, you know, it was like, cause it was hard to describe unless you were there at the time, the like level of hype and being a computer science major at Stanford was like, A thousand opportunities.[00:04:45] Bret: And then, and then when I left, it was like Microsoft, IBM.[00:04:49] Joining Google and Early Projects[00:04:49] Bret: And then the two startups that I applied to were VMware and Google. And I ended up going to Google in large part because a woman named Marissa Meyer, who had been a teaching [00:05:00] assistant when I was, what was called a section leader, which was like a junior teaching assistant kind of for one of the big interest.[00:05:05] Bret: Yes. Classes. She had gone there. And she was recruiting me and I knew her and it was sort of felt safe, you know, like, I don't know. I thought about it much, but it turned out to be a real blessing. I realized like, you know, you always want to think you'd pick Google if given the option, but no one knew at the time.[00:05:20] Bret: And I wonder if I'd graduated in like 1999 where I've been like, mom, I just got a job at pets. com. It's good. But you know, at the end I just didn't have any options. So I was like, do I want to go like make kernel software at VMware? Do I want to go build search at Google? And I chose Google. 50, 50 ball.[00:05:36] Bret: I'm not really a 50, 50 ball. So I feel very fortunate in retrospect that the economy collapsed because in some ways it forced me into like one of the greatest companies of all time, but I kind of lucked into it, I think.[00:05:47] The Google Maps Rewrite Story[00:05:47] Alessio: So the famous story about Google is that you rewrote the Google maps back in, in one week after the map quest quest maps acquisition, what was the story there?[00:05:57] Alessio: Is it. Actually true. Is it [00:06:00] being glorified? Like how, how did that come to be? And is there any detail that maybe Paul hasn't shared before?[00:06:06] Bret: It's largely true, but I'll give the color commentary. So it was actually the front end, not the back end, but it turns out for Google maps, the front end was sort of the hard part just because Google maps was.[00:06:17] Bret: Largely the first ish kind of really interactive web application, say first ish. I think Gmail certainly was though Gmail, probably a lot of people then who weren't engineers probably didn't appreciate its level of interactivity. It was just fast, but. Google maps, because you could drag the map and it was sort of graphical.[00:06:38] Bret: My, it really in the mainstream, I think, was it a map[00:06:41] swyx: quest back then that was, you had the arrows up and down, it[00:06:44] Bret: was up and down arrows. Each map was a single image and you just click left and then wait for a few seconds to the new map to let it was really small too, because generating a big image was kind of expensive on computers that day.[00:06:57] Bret: So Google maps was truly innovative in that [00:07:00] regard. The story on it. There was a small company called where two technologies started by two Danish brothers, Lars and Jens Rasmussen, who are two of my closest friends now. They had made a windows app called expedition, which had beautiful maps. Even in 2000.[00:07:18] Bret: For whenever we acquired or sort of acquired their company, Windows software was not particularly fashionable, but they were really passionate about mapping and we had made a local search product that was kind of middling in terms of popularity, sort of like a yellow page of search product. So we wanted to really go into mapping.[00:07:36] Bret: We'd started working on it. Their small team seemed passionate about it. So we're like, come join us. We can build this together.[00:07:42] Technical Challenges and Innovations[00:07:42] Bret: It turned out to be a great blessing that they had built a windows app because you're less technically constrained when you're doing native code than you are building a web browser, particularly back then when there weren't really interactive web apps and it ended up.[00:07:56] Bret: Changing the level of quality that we [00:08:00] wanted to hit with the app because we were shooting for something that felt like a native windows application. So it was a really good fortune that we sort of, you know, their unusual technical choices turned out to be the greatest blessing. So we spent a lot of time basically saying, how can you make a interactive draggable map in a web browser?[00:08:18] Bret: How do you progressively load, you know, new map tiles, you know, as you're dragging even things like down in the weeds of the browser at the time, most browsers like Internet Explorer, which was dominant at the time would only load two images at a time from the same domain. So we ended up making our map tile servers have like.[00:08:37] Bret: Forty different subdomains so we could load maps and parallels like lots of hacks. I'm happy to go into as much as like[00:08:44] swyx: HTTP connections and stuff.[00:08:46] Bret: They just like, there was just maximum parallelism of two. And so if you had a map, set of map tiles, like eight of them, so So we just, we were down in the weeds of the browser anyway.[00:08:56] Bret: So it was lots of plumbing. I can, I know a lot more about browsers than [00:09:00] most people, but then by the end of it, it was fairly, it was a lot of duct tape on that code. If you've ever done an engineering project where you're not really sure the path from point A to point B, it's almost like. Building a house by building one room at a time.[00:09:14] Bret: The, there's not a lot of architectural cohesion at the end. And then we acquired a company called Keyhole, which became Google earth, which was like that three, it was a native windows app as well, separate app, great app, but with that, we got licenses to all this satellite imagery. And so in August of 2005, we added.[00:09:33] Bret: Satellite imagery to Google Maps, which added even more complexity in the code base. And then we decided we wanted to support Safari. There was no mobile phones yet. So Safari was this like nascent browser on, on the Mac. And it turns out there's like a lot of decisions behind the scenes, sort of inspired by this windows app, like heavy use of XML and XSLT and all these like.[00:09:54] Bret: Technologies that were like briefly fashionable in the early two thousands and everyone hates now for good [00:10:00] reason. And it turns out that all of the XML functionality and Internet Explorer wasn't supporting Safari. So people are like re implementing like XML parsers. And it was just like this like pile of s**t.[00:10:11] Bret: And I had to say a s**t on your part. Yeah, of[00:10:12] Alessio: course.[00:10:13] Bret: So. It went from this like beautifully elegant application that everyone was proud of to something that probably had hundreds of K of JavaScript, which sounds like nothing. Now we're talking like people have modems, you know, not all modems, but it was a big deal.[00:10:29] Bret: So it was like slow. It took a while to load and just, it wasn't like a great code base. Like everything was fragile. So I just got. Super frustrated by it. And then one weekend I did rewrite all of it. And at the time the word JSON hadn't been coined yet too, just to give you a sense. So it's all XML.[00:10:47] swyx: Yeah.[00:10:47] Bret: So we used what is now you would call JSON, but I just said like, let's use eval so that we can parse the data fast. And, and again, that's, it would literally as JSON, but at the time there was no name for it. So we [00:11:00] just said, let's. Pass on JavaScript from the server and eval it. And then somebody just refactored the whole thing.[00:11:05] Bret: And, and it wasn't like I was some genius. It was just like, you know, if you knew everything you wished you had known at the beginning and I knew all the functionality, cause I was the primary, one of the primary authors of the JavaScript. And I just like, I just drank a lot of coffee and just stayed up all weekend.[00:11:22] Bret: And then I, I guess I developed a bit of reputation and no one knew about this for a long time. And then Paul who created Gmail and I ended up starting a company with him too, after all of this told this on a podcast and now it's large, but it's largely true. I did rewrite it and it, my proudest thing.[00:11:38] Bret: And I think JavaScript people appreciate this. Like the un G zipped bundle size for all of Google maps. When I rewrote, it was 20 K G zipped. It was like much smaller for the entire application. It went down by like 10 X. So. What happened on Google? Google is a pretty mainstream company. And so like our usage is shot up because it turns out like it's faster.[00:11:57] Bret: Just being faster is worth a lot of [00:12:00] percentage points of growth at a scale of Google. So how[00:12:03] swyx: much modern tooling did you have? Like test suites no compilers.[00:12:07] Bret: Actually, that's not true. We did it one thing. So I actually think Google, I, you can. Download it. There's a, Google has a closure compiler, a closure compiler.[00:12:15] Bret: I don't know if anyone still uses it. It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of gone out of favor. Yeah. Well, even until recently it was better than most JavaScript minifiers because it was more like it did a lot more renaming of variables and things. Most people use ES build now just cause it's fast and closure compilers built on Java and super slow and stuff like that.[00:12:37] Bret: But, so we did have that, that was it. Okay.[00:12:39] The Evolution of Web Applications[00:12:39] Bret: So and that was treated internally, you know, it was a really interesting time at Google at the time because there's a lot of teams working on fairly advanced JavaScript when no one was. So Google suggest, which Kevin Gibbs was the tech lead for, was the first kind of type ahead, autocomplete, I believe in a web browser, and now it's just pervasive in search boxes that you sort of [00:13:00] see a type ahead there.[00:13:01] Bret: I mean, chat, dbt[00:13:01] swyx: just added it. It's kind of like a round trip.[00:13:03] Bret: Totally. No, it's now pervasive as a UI affordance, but that was like Kevin's 20 percent project. And then Gmail, Paul you know, he tells the story better than anyone, but he's like, you know, basically was scratching his own itch, but what was really neat about it is email, because it's such a productivity tool, just needed to be faster.[00:13:21] Bret: So, you know, he was scratching his own itch of just making more stuff work on the client side. And then we, because of Lars and Yen sort of like setting the bar of this windows app or like we need our maps to be draggable. So we ended up. Not only innovate in terms of having a big sync, what would be called a single page application today, but also all the graphical stuff you know, we were crashing Firefox, like it was going out of style because, you know, when you make a document object model with the idea that it's a document and then you layer on some JavaScript and then we're essentially abusing all of this, it just was running into code paths that were not.[00:13:56] Bret: Well, it's rotten, you know, at this time. And so it was [00:14:00] super fun. And, and, you know, in the building you had, so you had compilers, people helping minify JavaScript just practically, but there is a great engineering team. So they were like, that's why Closure Compiler is so good. It was like a. Person who actually knew about programming languages doing it, not just, you know, writing regular expressions.[00:14:17] Bret: And then the team that is now the Chrome team believe, and I, I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty sure Google is the main contributor to Firefox for a long time in terms of code. And a lot of browser people were there. So every time we would crash Firefox, we'd like walk up two floors and say like, what the hell is going on here?[00:14:35] Bret: And they would load their browser, like in a debugger. And we could like figure out exactly what was breaking. And you can't change the code, right? Cause it's the browser. It's like slow, right? I mean, slow to update. So, but we could figure out exactly where the bug was and then work around it in our JavaScript.[00:14:52] Bret: So it was just like new territory. Like so super, super fun time, just like a lot of, a lot of great engineers figuring out [00:15:00] new things. And And now, you know, the word, this term is no longer in fashion, but the word Ajax, which was asynchronous JavaScript and XML cause I'm telling you XML, but see the word XML there, to be fair, the way you made HTTP requests from a client to server was this.[00:15:18] Bret: Object called XML HTTP request because Microsoft and making Outlook web access back in the day made this and it turns out to have nothing to do with XML. It's just a way of making HTTP requests because XML was like the fashionable thing. It was like that was the way you, you know, you did it. But the JSON came out of that, you know, and then a lot of the best practices around building JavaScript applications is pre React.[00:15:44] Bret: I think React was probably the big conceptual step forward that we needed. Even my first social network after Google, we used a lot of like HTML injection and. Making real time updates was still very hand coded and it's really neat when you [00:16:00] see conceptual breakthroughs like react because it's, I just love those things where it's like obvious once you see it, but it's so not obvious until you do.[00:16:07] Bret: And actually, well, I'm sure we'll get into AI, but I, I sort of feel like we'll go through that evolution with AI agents as well that I feel like we're missing a lot of the core abstractions that I think in 10 years we'll be like, gosh, how'd you make agents? Before that, you know, but it was kind of that early days of web applications.[00:16:22] swyx: There's a lot of contenders for the reactive jobs of of AI, but no clear winner yet. I would say one thing I was there for, I mean, there's so much we can go into there. You just covered so much.[00:16:32] Product Management and Engineering Synergy[00:16:32] swyx: One thing I just, I just observe is that I think the early Google days had this interesting mix of PM and engineer, which I think you are, you didn't, you didn't wait for PM to tell you these are my, this is my PRD.[00:16:42] swyx: This is my requirements.[00:16:44] mix: Oh,[00:16:44] Bret: okay.[00:16:45] swyx: I wasn't technically a software engineer. I mean,[00:16:48] Bret: by title, obviously. Right, right, right.[00:16:51] swyx: It's like a blend. And I feel like these days, product is its own discipline and its own lore and own industry and engineering is its own thing. And there's this process [00:17:00] that happens and they're kind of separated, but you don't produce as good of a product as if they were the same person.[00:17:06] swyx: And I'm curious, you know, if, if that, if that sort of resonates in, in, in terms of like comparing early Google versus modern startups that you see out there,[00:17:16] Bret: I certainly like wear a lot of hats. So, you know, sort of biased in this, but I really agree that there's a lot of power and combining product design engineering into as few people as possible because, you know few great things have been created by committee, you know, and so.[00:17:33] Bret: If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a. Maniacal focus on outcomes.[00:17:53] Bret: And I think the reason why it's, I think for some areas, if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a [00:18:00] separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of like. Technological breakthroughs required for most, you know, business applications.[00:18:11] Bret: And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful. I don't mean to be dismissive of expense reporting software, but you probably just want to understand like, what are the requirements of the finance department? What are the requirements of an individual file expense report? Okay.[00:18:25] Bret: Go implement that. And you kind of know how web applications are implemented. You kind of know how to. How databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem when you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it.[00:18:58] Bret: And the capabilities of the [00:19:00] technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself. And that's why I use the word conversation. It's not literal. That's sort of funny to use that word in the age of conversational AI.[00:19:15] Bret: You're constantly sort of saying, like, ideally, you could sprinkle some magic AI pixie dust and solve all the world's problems, but it's not the way it works. And it turns out that actually, I'll just give an interesting example.[00:19:26] AI Agents and Modern Tooling[00:19:26] Bret: I think most people listening probably use co pilots to code like Cursor or Devon or Microsoft Copilot or whatever.[00:19:34] Bret: Most of those tools are, they're remarkable. I'm, I couldn't, you know, imagine development without them now, but they're not autonomous yet. Like I wouldn't let it just write most code without my interactively inspecting it. We just are somewhere between it's an amazing co pilot and it's an autonomous software engineer.[00:19:53] Bret: As a product manager, like your aspirations for what the product is are like kind of meaningful. But [00:20:00] if you're a product person, yeah, of course you'd say it should be autonomous. You should click a button and program should come out the other side. The requirements meaningless. Like what matters is like, what is based on the like very nuanced limitations of the technology.[00:20:14] Bret: What is it capable of? And then how do you maximize the leverage? It gives a software engineering team, given those very nuanced trade offs. Coupled with the fact that those nuanced trade offs are changing more rapidly than any technology in my memory, meaning every few months you'll have new models with new capabilities.[00:20:34] Bret: So how do you construct a product that can absorb those new capabilities as rapidly as possible as well? That requires such a combination of technical depth and understanding the customer that you really need more integration. Of product design and engineering. And so I think it's why with these big technology waves, I think startups have a bit of a leg up relative to incumbents because they [00:21:00] tend to be sort of more self actualized in terms of just like bringing those disciplines closer together.[00:21:06] Bret: And in particular, I think entrepreneurs, the proverbial full stack engineers, you know, have a leg up as well because. I think most breakthroughs happen when you have someone who can understand those extremely nuanced technical trade offs, have a vision for a product. And then in the process of building it, have that, as I said, like metaphorical conversation with the technology, right?[00:21:30] Bret: Gosh, I ran into a technical limit that I didn't expect. It's not just like changing that feature. You might need to refactor the whole product based on that. And I think that's, that it's particularly important right now. So I don't, you know, if you, if you're building a big ERP system, probably there's a great reason to have product and engineering.[00:21:51] Bret: I think in general, the disciplines are there for a reason. I think when you're dealing with something as nuanced as the like technologies, like large language models today, there's a ton of [00:22:00] advantage of having. Individuals or organizations that integrate the disciplines more formally.[00:22:05] Alessio: That makes a lot of sense.[00:22:06] Alessio: I've run a lot of engineering teams in the past, and I think the product versus engineering tension has always been more about effort than like whether or not the feature is buildable. But I think, yeah, today you see a lot more of like. Models actually cannot do that. And I think the most interesting thing is on the startup side, people don't yet know where a lot of the AI value is going to accrue.[00:22:26] Alessio: So you have this rush of people building frameworks, building infrastructure, layered things, but we don't really know the shape of the compute. I'm curious that Sierra, like how you thought about building an house, a lot of the tooling for evals or like just, you know, building the agents and all of that.[00:22:41] Alessio: Versus how you see some of the startup opportunities that is maybe still out there.[00:22:46] Bret: We build most of our tooling in house at Sierra, not all. It's, we don't, it's not like not invented here syndrome necessarily, though, maybe slightly guilty of that in some ways, but because we're trying to build a platform [00:23:00] that's in Dorian, you know, we really want to have control over our own destiny.[00:23:03] Bret: And you had made a comment earlier that like. We're still trying to figure out who like the reactive agents are and the jury is still out. I would argue it hasn't been created yet. I don't think the jury is still out to go use that metaphor. We're sort of in the jQuery era of agents, not the react era.[00:23:19] Bret: And, and that's like a throwback for people listening,[00:23:22] swyx: we shouldn't rush it. You know?[00:23:23] Bret: No, yeah, that's my point is. And so. Because we're trying to create an enduring company at Sierra that outlives us, you know, I'm not sure we want to like attach our cart to some like to a horse where it's not clear that like we've figured out and I actually want as a company, we're trying to enable just at a high level and I'll, I'll quickly go back to tech at Sierra, we help consumer brands build customer facing AI agents.[00:23:48] Bret: So. Everyone from Sonos to ADT home security to Sirius XM, you know, if you call them on the phone and AI will pick up with you, you know, chat with them on the Sirius XM homepage. It's an AI agent called Harmony [00:24:00] that they've built on our platform. We're what are the contours of what it means for someone to build an end to end complete customer experience with AI with conversational AI.[00:24:09] Bret: You know, we really want to dive into the deep end of, of all the trade offs to do it. You know, where do you use fine tuning? Where do you string models together? You know, where do you use reasoning? Where do you use generation? How do you use reasoning? How do you express the guardrails of an agentic process?[00:24:25] Bret: How do you impose determinism on a fundamentally non deterministic technology? There's just a lot of really like as an important design space. And I could sit here and tell you, we have the best approach. Every entrepreneur will, you know. But I hope that in two years, we look back at our platform and laugh at how naive we were, because that's the pace of change broadly.[00:24:45] Bret: If you talk about like the startup opportunities, I'm not wholly skeptical of tools companies, but I'm fairly skeptical. There's always an exception for every role, but I believe that certainly there's a big market for [00:25:00] frontier models, but largely for companies with huge CapEx budgets. So. Open AI and Microsoft's Anthropic and Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud XAI, which is very well capitalized now, but I think the, the idea that a company can make money sort of pre training a foundation model is probably not true.[00:25:20] Bret: It's hard to, you're competing with just, you know, unreasonably large CapEx budgets. And I just like the cloud infrastructure market, I think will be largely there. I also really believe in the applications of AI. And I define that not as like building agents or things like that. I define it much more as like, you're actually solving a problem for a business.[00:25:40] Bret: So it's what Harvey is doing in legal profession or what cursor is doing for software engineering or what we're doing for customer experience and customer service. The reason I believe in that is I do think that in the age of AI, what's really interesting about software is it can actually complete a task.[00:25:56] Bret: It can actually do a job, which is very different than the value proposition of [00:26:00] software was to ancient history two years ago. And as a consequence, I think the way you build a solution and For a domain is very different than you would have before, which means that it's not obvious, like the incumbent incumbents have like a leg up, you know, necessarily, they certainly have some advantages, but there's just such a different form factor, you know, for providing a solution and it's just really valuable.[00:26:23] Bret: You know, it's. Like just think of how much money cursor is saving software engineering teams or the alternative, how much revenue it can produce tool making is really challenging. If you look at the cloud market, just as a analog, there are a lot of like interesting tools, companies, you know, Confluent, Monetized Kafka, Snowflake, Hortonworks, you know, there's a, there's a bunch of them.[00:26:48] Bret: A lot of them, you know, have that mix of sort of like like confluence or have the open source or open core or whatever you call it. I, I, I'm not an expert in this area. You know, I do think [00:27:00] that developers are fickle. I think that in the tool space, I probably like. Default towards open source being like the area that will win.[00:27:09] Bret: It's hard to build a company around this and then you end up with companies sort of built around open source to that can work. Don't get me wrong, but I just think that it's nowadays the tools are changing so rapidly that I'm like, not totally skeptical of tool makers, but I just think that open source will broadly win, but I think that the CapEx required for building frontier models is such that it will go to a handful of big companies.[00:27:33] Bret: And then I really believe in agents for specific domains which I think will, it's sort of the analog to software as a service in this new era. You know, it's like, if you just think of the cloud. You can lease a server. It's just a low level primitive, or you can buy an app like you know, Shopify or whatever.[00:27:51] Bret: And most people building a storefront would prefer Shopify over hand rolling their e commerce storefront. I think the same thing will be true of AI. So [00:28:00] I've. I tend to like, if I have a, like an entrepreneur asked me for advice, I'm like, you know, move up the stack as far as you can towards a customer need.[00:28:09] Bret: Broadly, but I, but it doesn't reduce my excitement about what is the reactive building agents kind of thing, just because it is, it is the right question to ask, but I think we'll probably play out probably an open source space more than anything else.[00:28:21] swyx: Yeah, and it's not a priority for you. There's a lot in there.[00:28:24] swyx: I'm kind of curious about your idea maze towards, there are many customer needs. You happen to identify customer experience as yours, but it could equally have been coding assistance or whatever. I think for some, I'm just kind of curious at the top down, how do you look at the world in terms of the potential problem space?[00:28:44] swyx: Because there are many people out there who are very smart and pick the wrong problem.[00:28:47] Bret: Yeah, that's a great question.[00:28:48] Future of Software Development[00:28:48] Bret: By the way, I would love to talk about the future of software, too, because despite the fact it didn't pick coding, I have a lot of that, but I can talk to I can answer your question, though, you know I think when a technology is as [00:29:00] cool as large language models.[00:29:02] Bret: You just see a lot of people starting from the technology and searching for a problem to solve. And I think it's why you see a lot of tools companies, because as a software engineer, you start building an app or a demo and you, you encounter some pain points. You're like,[00:29:17] swyx: a lot of[00:29:17] Bret: people are experiencing the same pain point.[00:29:19] Bret: What if I make it? That it's just very incremental. And you know, I always like to use the metaphor, like you can sell coffee beans, roasted coffee beans. You can add some value. You took coffee beans and you roasted them and roasted coffee beans largely, you know, are priced relative to the cost of the beans.[00:29:39] Bret: Or you can sell a latte and a latte. Is rarely priced directly like as a percentage of coffee bean prices. In fact, if you buy a latte at the airport, it's a captive audience. So it's a really expensive latte. And there's just a lot that goes into like. How much does a latte cost? And I bring it up because there's a supply chain from growing [00:30:00] coffee beans to roasting coffee beans to like, you know, you could make one at home or you could be in the airport and buy one and the margins of the company selling lattes in the airport is a lot higher than the, you know, people roasting the coffee beans and it's because you've actually solved a much more acute human problem in the airport.[00:30:19] Bret: And, and it's just worth a lot more to that person in that moment. It's kind of the way I think about technology too. It sounds funny to liken it to coffee beans, but you're selling tools on top of a large language model yet in some ways your market is big, but you're probably going to like be price compressed just because you're sort of a piece of infrastructure and then you have open source and all these other things competing with you naturally.[00:30:43] Bret: If you go and solve a really big business problem for somebody, that's actually like a meaningful business problem that AI facilitates, they will value it according to the value of that business problem. And so I actually feel like people should just stop. You're like, no, that's, that's [00:31:00] unfair. If you're searching for an idea of people, I, I love people trying things, even if, I mean, most of the, a lot of the greatest ideas have been things no one believed in.[00:31:07] Bret: So I like, if you're passionate about something, go do it. Like who am I to say, yeah, a hundred percent. Or Gmail, like Paul as far, I mean I, some of it's Laura at this point, but like Gmail is Paul's own email for a long time. , and then I amusingly and Paul can't correct me, I'm pretty sure he sent her in a link and like the first comment was like, this is really neat.[00:31:26] Bret: It would be great. It was not your email, but my own . I don't know if it's a true story. I'm pretty sure it's, yeah, I've read that before. So scratch your own niche. Fine. Like it depends on what your goal is. If you wanna do like a venture backed company, if its a. Passion project, f*****g passion, do it like don't listen to anybody.[00:31:41] Bret: In fact, but if you're trying to start, you know an enduring company, solve an important business problem. And I, and I do think that in the world of agents, the software industries has shifted where you're not just helping people more. People be more productive, but you're actually accomplishing tasks autonomously.[00:31:58] Bret: And as a consequence, I think the [00:32:00] addressable market has just greatly expanded just because software can actually do things now and actually accomplish tasks and how much is coding autocomplete worth. A fair amount. How much is the eventual, I'm certain we'll have it, the software agent that actually writes the code and delivers it to you, that's worth a lot.[00:32:20] Bret: And so, you know, I would just maybe look up from the large language models and start thinking about the economy and, you know, think from first principles. I don't wanna get too far afield, but just think about which parts of the economy. We'll benefit most from this intelligence and which parts can absorb it most easily.[00:32:38] Bret: And what would an agent in this space look like? Who's the customer of it is the technology feasible. And I would just start with these business problems more. And I think, you know, the best companies tend to have great engineers who happen to have great insight into a market. And it's that last part that I think some people.[00:32:56] Bret: Whether or not they have, it's like people start so much in the technology, they [00:33:00] lose the forest for the trees a little bit.[00:33:02] Alessio: How do you think about the model of still selling some sort of software versus selling more package labor? I feel like when people are selling the package labor, it's almost more stateless, you know, like it's easier to swap out if you're just putting an input and getting an output.[00:33:16] Alessio: If you think about coding, if there's no ID, you're just putting a prompt and getting back an app. It doesn't really matter. Who generates the app, you know, you have less of a buy in versus the platform you're building, I'm sure on the backend customers have to like put on their documentation and they have, you know, different workflows that they can tie in what's kind of like the line to draw there versus like going full where you're managed customer support team as a service outsource versus.[00:33:40] Alessio: This is the Sierra platform that you can build on. What was that decision? I'll sort of[00:33:44] Bret: like decouple the question in some ways, which is when you have something that's an agent, who is the person using it and what do they want to do with it? So let's just take your coding agent for a second. I will talk about Sierra as well.[00:33:59] Bret: Who's the [00:34:00] customer of a, an agent that actually produces software? Is it a software engineering manager? Is it a software engineer? And it's there, you know, intern so to speak. I don't know. I mean, we'll figure this out over the next few years. Like what is that? And is it generating code that you then review?[00:34:16] Bret: Is it generating code with a set of unit tests that pass, what is the actual. For lack of a better word contract, like, how do you know that it did what you wanted it to do? And then I would say like the product and the pricing, the packaging model sort of emerged from that. And I don't think the world's figured out.[00:34:33] Bret: I think it'll be different for every agent. You know, in our customer base, we do what's called outcome based pricing. So essentially every time the AI agent. Solves the problem or saves a customer or whatever it might be. There's a pre negotiated rate for that. We do that. Cause it's, we think that that's sort of the correct way agents, you know, should be packaged.[00:34:53] Bret: I look back at the history of like cloud software and notably the introduction of the browser, which led to [00:35:00] software being delivered in a browser, like Salesforce to. Famously invented sort of software as a service, which is both a technical delivery model through the browser, but also a business model, which is you subscribe to it rather than pay for a perpetual license.[00:35:13] Bret: Those two things are somewhat orthogonal, but not really. If you think about the idea of software running in a browser, that's hosted. Data center that you don't own, you sort of needed to change the business model because you don't, you can't really buy a perpetual license or something otherwise like, how do you afford making changes to it?[00:35:31] Bret: So it only worked when you were buying like a new version every year or whatever. So to some degree, but then the business model shift actually changed business as we know it, because now like. Things like Adobe Photoshop. Now you subscribe to rather than purchase. So it ended up where you had a technical shift and a business model shift that were very logically intertwined that actually the business model shift was turned out to be as significant as the technical as the shift.[00:35:59] Bret: And I think with [00:36:00] agents, because they actually accomplish a job, I do think that it doesn't make sense to me that you'd pay for the privilege of like. Using the software like that coding agent, like if it writes really bad code, like fire it, you know, I don't know what the right metaphor is like you should pay for a job.[00:36:17] Bret: Well done in my opinion. I mean, that's how you pay your software engineers, right? And[00:36:20] swyx: and well, not really. We paid to put them on salary and give them options and they vest over time. That's fair.[00:36:26] Bret: But my point is that you don't pay them for how many characters they write, which is sort of the token based, you know, whatever, like, There's a, that famous Apple story where we're like asking for a report of how many lines of code you wrote.[00:36:40] Bret: And one of the engineers showed up with like a negative number cause he had just like done a big refactoring. There was like a big F you to management who didn't understand how software is written. You know, my sense is like the traditional usage based or seat based thing. It's just going to look really antiquated.[00:36:55] Bret: Cause it's like asking your software engineer, how many lines of code did you write today? Like who cares? Like, cause [00:37:00] absolutely no correlation. So my old view is I don't think it's be different in every category, but I do think that that is the, if an agent is doing a job, you should, I think it properly incentivizes the maker of that agent and the customer of, of your pain for the job well done.[00:37:16] Bret: It's not always perfect to measure. It's hard to measure engineering productivity, but you can, you should do something other than how many keys you typed, you know Talk about perverse incentives for AI, right? Like I can write really long functions to do the same thing, right? So broadly speaking, you know, I do think that we're going to see a change in business models of software towards outcomes.[00:37:36] Bret: And I think you'll see a change in delivery models too. And, and, you know, in our customer base you know, we empower our customers to really have their hands on the steering wheel of what the agent does they, they want and need that. But the role is different. You know, at a lot of our customers, the customer experience operations folks have renamed themselves the AI architects, which I think is really cool.[00:37:55] Bret: And, you know, it's like in the early days of the Internet, there's the role of the webmaster. [00:38:00] And I don't know whether your webmaster is not a fashionable, you know, Term, nor is it a job anymore? I just, I don't know. Will they, our tech stand the test of time? Maybe, maybe not. But I do think that again, I like, you know, because everyone listening right now is a software engineer.[00:38:14] Bret: Like what is the form factor of a coding agent? And actually I'll, I'll take a breath. Cause actually I have a bunch of pins on them. Like I wrote a blog post right before Christmas, just on the future of software development. And one of the things that's interesting is like, if you look at the way I use cursor today, as an example, it's inside of.[00:38:31] Bret: A repackaged visual studio code environment. I sometimes use the sort of agentic parts of it, but it's largely, you know, I've sort of gotten a good routine of making it auto complete code in the way I want through tuning it properly when it actually can write. I do wonder what like the future of development environments will look like.[00:38:55] Bret: And to your point on what is a software product, I think it's going to change a lot in [00:39:00] ways that will surprise us. But I always use, I use the metaphor in my blog post of, have you all driven around in a way, Mo around here? Yeah, everyone has. And there are these Jaguars, the really nice cars, but it's funny because it still has a steering wheel, even though there's no one sitting there and the steering wheels like turning and stuff clearly in the future.[00:39:16] Bret: If once we get to that, be more ubiquitous, like why have the steering wheel and also why have all the seats facing forward? Maybe just for car sickness. I don't know, but you could totally rearrange the car. I mean, so much of the car is oriented around the driver, so. It stands to reason to me that like, well, autonomous agents for software engineering run through visual studio code.[00:39:37] Bret: That seems a little bit silly because having a single source code file open one at a time is kind of a goofy form factor for when like the code isn't being written primarily by you, but it begs the question of what's your relationship with that agent. And I think the same is true in our industry of customer experience, which is like.[00:39:55] Bret: Who are the people managing this agent? What are the tools do they need? And they definitely need [00:40:00] tools, but it's probably pretty different than the tools we had before. It's certainly different than training a contact center team. And as software engineers, I think that I would like to see particularly like on the passion project side or research side.[00:40:14] Bret: More innovation in programming languages. I think that we're bringing the cost of writing code down to zero. So the fact that we're still writing Python with AI cracks me up just cause it's like literally was designed to be ergonomic to write, not safe to run or fast to run. I would love to see more innovation and how we verify program correctness.[00:40:37] Bret: I studied for formal verification in college a little bit and. It's not very fashionable because it's really like tedious and slow and doesn't work very well. If a lot of code is being written by a machine, you know, one of the primary values we can provide is verifying that it actually does what we intend that it does.[00:40:56] Bret: I think there should be lots of interesting things in the software development life cycle, like how [00:41:00] we think of testing and everything else, because. If you think about if we have to manually read every line of code that's coming out as machines, it will just rate limit how much the machines can do. The alternative is totally unsafe.[00:41:13] Bret: So I wouldn't want to put code in production that didn't go through proper code review and inspection. So my whole view is like, I actually think there's like an AI native I don't think the coding agents don't work well enough to do this yet, but once they do, what is sort of an AI native software development life cycle and how do you actually.[00:41:31] Bret: Enable the creators of software to produce the highest quality, most robust, fastest software and know that it's correct. And I think that's an incredible opportunity. I mean, how much C code can we rewrite and rust and make it safe so that there's fewer security vulnerabilities. Can we like have more efficient, safer code than ever before?[00:41:53] Bret: And can you have someone who's like that guy in the matrix, you know, like staring at the little green things, like where could you have an operator [00:42:00] of a code generating machine be like superhuman? I think that's a cool vision. And I think too many people are focused on like. Autocomplete, you know, right now, I'm not, I'm not even, I'm guilty as charged.[00:42:10] Bret: I guess in some ways, but I just like, I'd like to see some bolder ideas. And that's why when you were joking, you know, talking about what's the react of whatever, I think we're clearly in a local maximum, you know, metaphor, like sort of conceptual local maximum, obviously it's moving really fast. I think we're moving out of it.[00:42:26] Alessio: Yeah. At the end of 23, I've read this blog post from syntax to semantics. Like if you think about Python. It's taking C and making it more semantic and LLMs are like the ultimate semantic program, right? You can just talk to them and they can generate any type of syntax from your language. But again, the languages that they have to use were made for us, not for them.[00:42:46] Alessio: But the problem is like, as long as you will ever need a human to intervene, you cannot change the language under it. You know what I mean? So I'm curious at what point of automation we'll need to get, we're going to be okay making changes. To the underlying languages, [00:43:00] like the programming languages versus just saying, Hey, you just got to write Python because I understand Python and I'm more important at the end of the day than the model.[00:43:08] Alessio: But I think that will change, but I don't know if it's like two years or five years. I think it's more nuanced actually.[00:43:13] Bret: So I think there's a, some of the more interesting programming languages bring semantics into syntax. So let me, that's a little reductive, but like Rust as an example, Rust is memory safe.[00:43:25] Bret: Statically, and that was a really interesting conceptual, but it's why it's hard to write rust. It's why most people write python instead of rust. I think rust programs are safer and faster than python, probably slower to compile. But like broadly speaking, like given the option, if you didn't have to care about the labor that went into it.[00:43:45] Bret: You should prefer a program written in Rust over a program written in Python, just because it will run more efficiently. It's almost certainly safer, et cetera, et cetera, depending on how you define safe, but most people don't write Rust because it's kind of a pain in the ass. And [00:44:00] the audience of people who can is smaller, but it's sort of better in most, most ways.[00:44:05] Bret: And again, let's say you're making a web service and you didn't have to care about how hard it was to write. If you just got the output of the web service, the rest one would be cheaper to operate. It's certainly cheaper and probably more correct just because there's so much in the static analysis implied by the rest programming language that it probably will have fewer runtime errors and things like that as well.[00:44:25] Bret: So I just give that as an example, because so rust, at least my understanding that came out of the Mozilla team, because. There's lots of security vulnerabilities in the browser and it needs to be really fast. They said, okay, we want to put more of a burden at the authorship time to have fewer issues at runtime.[00:44:43] Bret: And we need the constraint that it has to be done statically because browsers need to be really fast. My sense is if you just think about like the, the needs of a programming language today, where the role of a software engineer is [00:45:00] to use an AI to generate functionality and audit that it does in fact work as intended, maybe functionally, maybe from like a correctness standpoint, some combination thereof, how would you create a programming system that facilitated that?[00:45:15] Bret: And, you know, I bring up Rust is because I think it's a good example of like, I think given a choice of writing in C or Rust, you should choose Rust today. I think most people would say that, even C aficionados, just because. C is largely less safe for very similar, you know, trade offs, you know, for the, the system and now with AI, it's like, okay, well, that just changes the game on writing these things.[00:45:36] Bret: And so like, I just wonder if a combination of programming languages that are more structurally oriented towards the values that we need from an AI generated program, verifiable correctness and all of that. If it's tedious to produce for a person, that maybe doesn't matter. But one thing, like if I asked you, is this rest program memory safe?[00:45:58] Bret: You wouldn't have to read it, you just have [00:46:00] to compile it. So that's interesting. I mean, that's like an, that's one example of a very modest form of formal verification. So I bring that up because I do think you have AI inspect AI, you can have AI reviewed. Do AI code reviews. It would disappoint me if the best we could get was AI reviewing Python and having scaled a few very large.[00:46:21] Bret: Websites that were written on Python. It's just like, you know, expensive and it's like every, trust me, every team who's written a big web service in Python has experimented with like Pi Pi and all these things just to make it slightly more efficient than it naturally is. You don't really have true multi threading anyway.[00:46:36] Bret: It's just like clearly that you do it just because it's convenient to write. And I just feel like we're, I don't want to say it's insane. I just mean. I do think we're at a local maximum. And I would hope that we create a programming system, a combination of programming languages, formal verification, testing, automated code reviews, where you can use AI to generate software in a high scale way and trust it.[00:46:59] Bret: And you're [00:47:00] not limited by your ability to read it necessarily. I don't know exactly what form that would take, but I feel like that would be a pretty cool world to live in.[00:47:08] Alessio: Yeah. We had Chris Lanner on the podcast. He's doing great work with modular. I mean, I love. LVM. Yeah. Basically merging rust in and Python.[00:47:15] Alessio: That's kind of the idea. Should be, but I'm curious is like, for them a big use case was like making it compatible with Python, same APIs so that Python developers could use it. Yeah. And so I, I wonder at what point, well, yeah.[00:47:26] Bret: At least my understanding is they're targeting the data science Yeah. Machine learning crowd, which is all written in Python, so still feels like a local maximum.[00:47:34] Bret: Yeah.[00:47:34] swyx: Yeah, exactly. I'll force you to make a prediction. You know, Python's roughly 30 years old. In 30 years from now, is Rust going to be bigger than Python?[00:47:42] Bret: I don't know this, but just, I don't even know this is a prediction. I just am sort of like saying stuff I hope is true. I would like to see an AI native programming language and programming system, and I use language because I'm not sure language is even the right thing, but I hope in 30 years, there's an AI native way we make [00:48:00] software that is wholly uncorrelated with the current set of programming languages.[00:48:04] Bret: or not uncorrelated, but I think most programming languages today were designed to be efficiently authored by people and some have different trade offs.[00:48:15] Evolution of Programming Languages[00:48:15] Bret: You know, you have Haskell and others that were designed for abstractions for parallelism and things like that. You have programming languages like Python, which are designed to be very easily written, sort of like Perl and Python lineage, which is why data scientists use it.[00:48:31] Bret: It's it can, it has a. Interactive mode, things like that. And I love, I'm a huge Python fan. So despite all my Python trash talk, a huge Python fan wrote at least two of my three companies were exclusively written in Python and then C came out of the birth of Unix and it wasn't the first, but certainly the most prominent first step after assembly language, right?[00:48:54] Bret: Where you had higher level abstractions rather than and going beyond go to, to like abstractions, [00:49:00] like the for loop and the while loop.[00:49:01] The Future of Software Engineering[00:49:01] Bret: So I just think that if the act of writing code is no longer a meaningful human exercise, maybe it will be, I don't know. I'm just saying it sort of feels like maybe it's one of those parts of history that just will sort of like go away, but there's still the role of this offer engineer, like the person actually building the system.[00:49:20] Bret: Right. And. What does a programming system for that form factor look like?[00:49:25] React and Front-End Development[00:49:25] Bret: And I, I just have a, I hope to be just like I mentioned, I remember I was at Facebook in the very early days when, when, what is now react was being created. And I remember when the, it was like released open source I had left by that time and I was just like, this is so f*****g cool.[00:49:42] Bret: Like, you know, to basically model your app independent of the data flowing through it, just made everything easier. And then now. You know, I can create, like there's a lot of the front end software gym play is like a little chaotic for me, to be honest with you. It is like, it's sort of like [00:50:00] abstraction soup right now for me, but like some of those core ideas felt really ergonomic.[00:50:04] Bret: I just wanna, I'm just looking forward to the day when someone comes up with a programming system that feels both really like an aha moment, but completely foreign to me at the same time. Because they created it with sort of like from first principles recognizing that like. Authoring code in an editor is maybe not like the primary like reason why a programming system exists anymore.[00:50:26] Bret: And I think that's like, that would be a very exciting day for me.[00:50:28] The Role of AI in Programming[00:50:28] swyx: Yeah, I would say like the various versions of this discussion have happened at the end of the day, you still need to precisely communicate what you want. As a manager of people, as someone who has done many, many legal contracts, you know how hard that is.[00:50:42] swyx: And then now we have to talk to machines doing that and AIs interpreting what we mean and reading our minds effectively. I don't know how to get across that barrier of translating human intent to instructions. And yes, it can be more declarative, but I don't know if it'll ever Crossover from being [00:51:00] a programming language to something more than that.[00:51:02] Bret: I agree with you. And I actually do think if you look at like a legal contract, you know, the imprecision of the English language, it's like a flaw in the system. How many[00:51:12] swyx: holes there are.[00:51:13] Bret: And I do think that when you're making a mission critical software system, I don't think it should be English language prompts.[00:51:19] Bret: I think that is silly because you want the precision of a a programming language. My point was less about that and more about if the actual act of authoring it, like if you.[00:51:32] Formal Verification in Software[00:51:32] Bret: I'll think of some embedded systems do use formal verification. I know it's very common in like security protocols now so that you can, because the importance of correctness is so great.[00:51:41] Bret: My intellectual exercise is like, why not do that for all software? I mean, probably that's silly just literally to do what we literally do for. These low level security protocols, but the only reason we don't is because it's hard and tedious and hard and tedious are no longer factors. So, like, if I could, I mean, [00:52:00] just think of, like, the silliest app on your phone right now, the idea that that app should be, like, formally verified for its correctness feels laughable right now because, like, God, why would you spend the time on it?[00:52:10] Bret: But if it's zero costs, like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, it never crashed. That's probably good. You know, why not? I just want to, like, set our bars really high. Like. We should make, software has been amazing. Like there's a Mark Andreessen blog post, software is eating the world. And you know, our whole life is, is mediated digitally.[00:52:26] Bret: And that's just increasing with AI. And now we'll have our personal agents talking to the agents on the CRO platform and it's agents all the way down, you know, our core infrastructure is running on these digital systems. We now have like, and we've had a shortage of software developers for my entire life.[00:52:45] Bret: And as a consequence, you know if you look, remember like health care, got healthcare. gov that fiasco security vulnerabilities leading to state actors getting access to critical infrastructure. I'm like. We now have like created this like amazing system that can [00:53:00] like, we can fix this, you know, and I, I just want to, I'm both excited about the productivity gains in the economy, but I just think as software engineers, we should be bolder.[00:53:08] Bret: Like we should have aspirations to fix these systems so that like in general, as you said, as precise as we want to be in the specification of the system. We can make it work correctly now, and I'm being a little bit hand wavy, and I think we need some systems. I think that's where we should set the bar, especially when so much of our life depends on this critical digital infrastructure.[00:53:28] Bret: So I'm I'm just like super optimistic about it. But actually, let's go to w

In this episode, Šimon Mandlík, a PhD candidate at the Czech Technical University will talk with us about leveraging machine learning and graph-based techniques for cybersecurity applications. We'll learn how graphs are used to detect malicious activity in networks, such as identifying harmful domains and executable files by analyzing their relationships within vast datasets. This will include the use of hierarchical multi-instance learning (HML) to represent JSON-based network activity as graphs and the advantages of analyzing connections between entities (like clients, domains etc.). Our guest shows that while other graph methods (such as GNN or Label Propagation) lack in scalability or having trouble with heterogeneous graphs, his method can tackle them because of the "locality assumption" – fraud will be a local phenomenon in the graph – and by relying on this assumption, we can get faster and more accurate results.