Podcasts about CLI

.NET on FreeBSD 15, Klara and TrueNAS fixing dedup, dhcpcd and unbound in FreeBSD Jails, and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines Running .NET 10.0 on FreeBSD 15.0 How Klara and TrueNAS collaborated to fix one of ZFS's longest standing limitations News Roundup Back to FreeBSD: Part 1 dhcpd and unbound in FreeBSD jails How our environment still needs the security boundary of Unix logins Increasing a bhyve vm disk Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

If you think code is safe from automation, think again. This week's discussion tackles why the rise of vibe coding and AI-powered tools could upend long-held beliefs about software development, with even seasoned pros rethinking their roles. Also, a new C++ documentary is worth watching! Windows After a weekend of Build session viewing, two big takeaways! Vibe coding native Windows apps and a new reactive dev model for WinUI will help to make modern app dev easier for everyone A new theory emerges: The real reason Microsoft is fixing Windows 11 is that it needs this foundation for a future of hybrid AI agents. And hybrid means more than just local + cloud. Patch Tuesday is here! As promised, Microsoft fixed a record number of security issues thanks to AI 24H2/25H2: Shared audio, more NPU in Task Manager, multi-app camera support, user folder name choice in OOBE, more 26H1: Xbox Mode, Drop tray, etc. Windows Insider Program: New 26H1 Beta channel added for some reason Dell now sells a Windows Hello ESS-compatible wired mouse AI WWDC 2026: Apple announced vibe-coding advances for normal users (Safari extensions) and developers (Xcode). Paul used Xcode and Claude Code to create a full-featured Markdown editor app in about 12-15 minutes. Google drops the price of AI Plus plan to $4.99 per month, raises storage to 400 GB and announces new NotebookLM capabilities Proton Drive is coming to Linux, has a new SDK, and now has a new CLI too. We're going to need a CLI section in the show notes. XBOX and gaming Microsoft Games Showcase: It needed to be a big day for Xbox and it was Microsoft showed off Halo: Campaign Evolved, Gears of War E-Day, Fable, and a lot more Some games will be console-exclusive in the future, starting with the new Gears Microsoft will sell a limited edition Xbox Series X25 later this year Xbox leadership is exploring new business models for the next console - Game Pass lost "millions" of subscribers after last year's price hikes Xbox Insider update adds a new way to discover mutual friends, more Valve says the Steam Machine and Steam Frame will ship this summer Tips and picks Tip of the week: Windows 11 Field Guide is being updated to 2026 edition App pick of the week: Brave Origin RunAs Radio this week: How Machine Learning Fails with Megan Robertson Brown liquor pick of the week: Thy Bøg Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, and Richard Campbell Download or subscribe to Windows Weekly at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: helixsleep.com/windows zscaler.com/security trustedtech.team/windowsweekly365

Take control of every AI agent, managed or not, running in your environment using Agent 365 and Microsoft Entra. Surface agents across AWS Bedrock, Google Vertex, Databricks, and Salesforce in one registry, assign Entra Agent IDs via CLI or SDK, and enforce least-privilege access through Conditional Access policies and Agent Blueprints, all without rebuilding your existing identity infrastructure. Lock down agent activity with sign-in logs that capture every authentication attempt, policy hit, and failure. Govern agents as first-class identities alongside your users, apps, and devices, and draw a hard line between managed and unmanaged AI in your organization. Vince Smith, Microsoft Entra Principal Product Manager, shares how to establish full visibility, access control, and lifecycle governance for AI agents using Microsoft Entra and Agent 365.  ► QUICK LINKS: 00:00 - Visibility and control with Agent 365 01:39 - Multi-platform registry sync 02:29 - Assign Agent ID 04:14 - Agent Blueprints 05:24 - Conditional Access for agents 06:24 - Sign-in logs audit trail 07:03 - Unblock the agent 07:54 - Wrap up ► Link References  Check out https://aka.ms/EntraforAgents ► Unfamiliar with Microsoft Mechanics? As Microsoft's official video series for IT, you can watch and share valuable content and demos of current and upcoming tech from the people who build it at Microsoft. • Subscribe to our YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/MicrosoftMechanicsSeries • Talk with other IT Pros, join us on the Microsoft Tech Community: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/microsoft-mechanics-blog/bg-p/MicrosoftMechanicsBlog • Watch or listen from anywhere, subscribe to our podcast: https://microsoftmechanics.libsyn.com/podcast ► Keep getting this insider knowledge, join us on social: • Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MSFTMechanics • Share knowledge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/microsoft-mechanics/ • Enjoy us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/msftmechanics/ • Loosen up with us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@msftmechanics

Here's an update on what our engineering team has been shipping in sem-ai and what's coming up next.Codex marketplace support is live.A few issues were blocking some users from getting sem-ai working on Codex. Those are now fixed. If you tried it before and hit a wall, it's worth giving it another shot.Task creation got faster.We cleaned up some unnecessary API calls that were causing hiccups. You can now create and manage tasks on your projects entirely through the CLI, exactly where your agent already lives.sem-ai plugin submitted to the Claude marketplace.We're in review. We'll share more once it's through.On the horizon:The team is working on full platform management through sem-ai. Members, organizations, and everything else currently in the Semaphore UI will be accessible directly through the CLI.Also shipped: Show/hide skipped blocks in the workflow editor is now generally available. If you work with complex pipelines, it makes reading results a lot cleaner. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit semaphoreio.substack.com

In this episode of the Shift AI Podcast, LaSean Smith, Product and Growth Lead at Google Cloud, joins host Boaz Ashkenazy for a wide-ranging conversation on how systems thinking and agentic AI are reshaping the way individuals, small businesses, and enterprises operate.LaSean shares a career journey that spans Microsoft HoloLens, Amazon, a successful startup exit, and now Google — plus a portfolio of small businesses that have served as his real-world AI lab. From a salad shop in Renton to a pre-construction development business in Seattle, he's applied workflow design and agent automation to solve practical problems long before it was fashionable.The conversation digs deep into how to actually build effective AI agents — not by prompting a chatbot, but by thinking in workflows first, identifying where reasoning actually needs to happen, and writing skills that make agents fast, reliable, and token-efficient. LaSean explains the "parcel grader" agent he built for his construction business, why he starts every agent build in a chat interface before moving to CLI, and how the McDonald's SOP model is the right mental framework for getting great output from AI.Boaz and LaSean also discuss the barbell economy that AI is creating — where small players and large enterprises both gain leverage while the middle gets squeezed — why Microsoft's Copilot strategy missed the point, how to think about agent security and identity, and why healthy organizational culture is the actual prerequisite for successful AI adoption.The episode closes with a reflection on what "always changing" really means as a mindset, and why building resilience and systems thinking skills now is the most important career investment anyone can make.This episode is essential listening for entrepreneurs, operators, and anyone using or thinking about deploying AI agents in their work.---Chapters[00:00] Episode 100 and LaSean's First Jobs[03:30] From Microsoft HoloLens to Amazon to Google: LaSean's Career Path[08:00] What LaSean Does at Google Cloud Today[11:00] The Entrepreneurial Side: Small Businesses as an AI Lab[16:00] The Barbell Economy: Why the Middle Is Being Squeezed[20:00] Building the Parcel Grader Agent for Pre-Construction[25:00] How to Write Better Skills: Start in Chat, Not CLI[30:00] Workflow Thinking vs. Department Thinking[35:00] Why Google Is Generating 75% of Its Code with AI[38:00] The McDonald's SOP Model for Agent Design[42:00] Agent Security for Individuals and Small Businesses[47:00] Enterprise AI: Governance, Trust, and Organizational Design[52:00] The Two-Word Future of Work: Always Changing---Connect with LaSean SmithLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laseansmith/Connect with Boaz AshkenazyLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boazashkenazy/Email: info@shiftai.fm

Sherwood Callaway is the founder of Sazabi (YC P26), the AI-native observability platform built for engineering teams who ship fast. He previously founded and exited a YC company — now he's back, betting that logs are all you need to replace Datadog.Logs Are All You Need: Rethinking Observability with AI Agents // MLOps Podcast #381 with Sherwood Callaway, the Founder of Sazabi

In this talk, Mariano, Lead Data Scientist and ML Engineer at OLX, shares his journey building high-impact AI media solutions. We explore the transition from traditional e-commerce models to Generative AI and Agentic tools, focusing on how to take AI products from a notebook to full-scale production.You'll learn about:How to master the full product cycle from requirement gathering to deployment.Using video-to-ad technology to automate car listings and seller experiences.Essential modern tools like FastAPI, Arize, and why UV is a game-changer.When to use LLMs versus specialized vision models like CLIP and YOLO.Why production pipelines are moving from Jupyter notebooks to CLI tools.How agentic coding and AI assistants are 10x-ing development speed.TIMECODES:0:00 Community Introduction and Slack Engagement4:16 Career Journey: From Argentina to Barcelona7:16 Product-Driven AI vs. Traditional Reporting9:41 AI Media Solutions for E-Commerce Sellers10:55 Video-to-Ad: The Future of Marketplaces13:45 Automated Content Creation for Sellers17:10 Defining End-to-End Ownership in Data Science21:12 The Longevity of the CRISP-DM Framework25:33 Impact of Agentic Coding and GitHub Copilot31:42 Why LLMs Aren't Always the Best Solution37:39 Translating Business Needs to ML Requirements41:18 Managing Explicit and Implicit Feedback Loops48:26 Architecture Deep Dive: Image Description Logic55:28 The Declining Role of Notebooks in Production1:02:53 The Modern Tech Stack: Fast API, UV, and ArizeConnect with Mariano: Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/msemelman/Connect with DataTalks.Club:- Join the community - https://datatalks.club/slack.html- Subscribe to our Google calendar to have all our events in your calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/r?cid=ZjhxaWRqbnEwamhzY3A4ODA5azFlZ2hzNjBAZ3JvdXAuY2FsZW5kYXIuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbQ- Check other upcoming events - https://lu.ma/dtc-events- GitHub: https://github.com/DataTalksClub- LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/datatalks-club/ - Twitter - https://twitter.com/DataTalksClub - Website - https://datatalks.club/

Thu, 28 May 2026 21:15:00 GMT http://relay.fm/connected/605 http://relay.fm/connected/605 Being Completely Awesome 605 Federico Viticci, Stephen Hackett, and Myke Hurley Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. clean 4475 Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. This episode of Connected is sponsored by: Sentry: Mobile crash reporting and app monitoring. New users get $100 in Sentry credits with code connected26. Steamclock: We make great apps. Design and development, from demos to details. Links and Show Notes: Get Connected Pro: Preshow, postshow, no ads. Submit Feedback Apple Publishes Document to Help Users Tell Creator Studio Apps Apart - MacRumors Identify Apple Creator Studio apps on your Mac - Apple Support A Palazzo Reborn: Inside Apple's Stunning New Store in Via del Corso, Rome - MacStories The Now Page - 512 Pixels Compare Screenshots Over Time - 512 Pixels Kickstarter: Designed in California Hugo 11ty Google Fitbit Air Fitbit Air: The Truth About the "Whoop Killer" - MKBHD - YouTube ‎Pace by Athlytic App - App Store Oura Ring 5 Apple iOS 27 Photos, Screenshots: Revamped Siri, Pro Camera App, New AI Features - Bloomberg Introducing RemCTL: The Power-User Reminders CLI for

OpenBSD 7.9, Critical Infrastructure in FreeBSD, GhostBSD Finance report, Solaris 11.4 updates, and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines OpenBSD 7.9 60th Edition has been released and Reported over on Undeadly Cleaning Up Critical Infrastructure in FreeBSD News Roundup Apple Wants to Kill Your Time Capsule but They Run NetBSD So They Can Not Oracle To Reduce The Frequency Of Solaris 11.4 Updates FreeBSD on a Thinkpad T14 Gen 2 Intel January 2026 Finance Report Beastie Bits The DragonFly site has a recently-updated page describing how DPorts is assembled and the process to contribute. TUHS - Unix use of VAX protection modes Origin of the rule that swap size should be 2x of the physical memory - The Duke and the Beastie - Improving OpenJDK support for FreeBSD Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

Thu, 28 May 2026 21:15:00 GMT http://relay.fm/connected/605 http://relay.fm/connected/605 Federico Viticci, Stephen Hackett, and Myke Hurley Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. clean 4475 Stephen has been blogging, Myke has been shopping, and Federico has been... CLI'ing. This episode of Connected is sponsored by: Sentry: Mobile crash reporting and app monitoring. New users get $100 in Sentry credits with code connected26. Steamclock: We make great apps. Design and development, from demos to details. Links and Show Notes: Get Connected Pro: Preshow, postshow, no ads. Submit Feedback Apple Publishes Document to Help Users Tell Creator Studio Apps Apart - MacRumors Identify Apple Creator Studio apps on your Mac - Apple Support A Palazzo Reborn: Inside Apple's Stunning New Store in Via del Corso, Rome - MacStories The Now Page - 512 Pixels Compare Screenshots Over Time - 512 Pixels Kickstarter: Designed in California Hugo 11ty Google Fitbit Air Fitbit Air: The Truth About the "Whoop Killer" - MKBHD - YouTube ‎Pace by Athlytic App - App Store Oura Ring 5 Apple iOS 27 Photos, Screenshots: Revamped Siri, Pro Camera App, New AI Features - Bloomberg Introducing RemCTL: The Power-User Reminde

In this Watson Weekly interview episode, Rick Watson is joined by Lennart Stevens, VP of Product Management for Agentforce Commerce at Salesforce, who walks through Storefront Next, the latest evolution of Salesforce's commerce storefront.Storefront Next is built for developers and for a world where AI and agentic coding are the default. You can spin up a new storefront inside Business Manager with a click-based setup. Under the hood it runs on Salesforce's Managed Runtime as a hosted headless surface, with an enhanced SCAPI layer that lets apps, kiosks, and other channels pull from the same data. The stack standardizes on React, Shadcn, and Tailwind. Existing customers keep their catalogs, prices, and promotions and surface them through the new API.The Watson Weekly interview is sponsored by Avalara - the agentic AI platform automating global tax and compliance for leading eCommerce brands. For more details: https://avalaratax.watsonweekly.com.Lennart also gets into the agentic tooling (agent shopper, agentic merchandising), quiet AI like product readiness scores that flag missing info without nagging, reusable content blocks and embedded Page Designer components, and turnkey industry templates for retail, cosmetics, and furniture that convert well out of the box. He covers the upgraded CLI, the growing library of skills, and support for UCP as the channel-selling standard.The whole point: cut the standup busywork so developers spend time on what actually moves the business.#watsonweekly #agentforce #storefrontnext #agentic

CRE brokerages have spent tens of thousands configuring Salesforce. Nobody uses it. The data is stale, the pipeline is fiction, and the analyst is entering last week's emails at 8pm to stay compliant.   Yaakov Zar, founder and CEO of Lev.com, has spent six years building a system to fix exactly that. AI-native deal management, not a retrofitted CRM. Lev ingests documents, extracts deal facts, resolves conflicts across sources, and surfaces a single source of truth - without manual data entry. The lender outreach problem is structural, not behavioral. Brokers don't fail to follow up because they're lazy; they fail because tracking 30 lender responses across email, Excel, and Salesforce is an analyst job that breaks at scale. Lev automates the intake, parsing, and quote matrix automatically. The platform is now open infrastructure. API, MCP connectors, and a CLI mean firms can build their own CRE operating system on top of Lev's deal data layer - rather than vibe-coding something that breaks under enterprise compliance requirements. Firms that keep running capital markets on spreadsheets are not just inefficient - they are building institutional knowledge in a format that walks out the door with every departing analyst. The structural advantage of organizations that systematize this data now will compound. For firms that wait, the gap will not close.   *** At GowerCrowd, we are bringing the most advanced AI tools to our clients for capital formation - and across other operational verticals too (like acquisitions). If you'd like to learn more about how we can assist you too, please reach out.   Subscribe to my newsletter and get access to this transformational intel before anyone else:  https://gowercrowd.com/subscribe Email: adam@gowercrowd.com Call: 213-761-1000  

Our 246th episode with a summary and discussion of last week's big AI news!Recorded on 05/22/2026Hosted by Andrey Kurenkov and Jeremie HarrisFeel free to email us your questions and feedback at andreyvkurenkov@gmail.com and/or hello@gladstone.aiRead out our text newsletter and comment on the podcast at https://lastweekin.ai/In this episode:Google I/O highlights included Gemini 3.5 (with 3.5 Flash emphasized for speed and benchmarks), the always-on agent Gemini Spark running on Google Cloud with MCP tool support, and Gemini Omni multimodal video generation/editing, plus updates like Anti-Gravity 2.0, Gemini for Science, and Genie world-model navigation using Street View and Waymo simulation.Coding-agent competition accelerated with Cursor Composer 2.5 (fine-tuned on Moonshot's Kimi K2.5) and xAI's early Grok Build release, alongside discussion of potential Cursor–xAI ties and xAI's talent churn and compute utilization concerns.Business and legal updates included Elon Musk losing his OpenAI lawsuit on statute-of-limitations grounds, reported OpenAI–Apple partnership tensions, Anthropic agreeing to a $30B funding round at a $900B valuation and projecting its first profitable quarter, and Cerebras' IPO surging about 90%. Research and safety stories covered OpenAI's result on an 80-year-old Erdős geometry problem, findings on “negation neglect” in training, interpretability work showing multiple redundant circuits per capability, agent benchmarks like Terminal World, new deepfake takedown enforcement under the Take It Down Act, demonstrations of autonomous hacking/self-replication, rapidly improving AI cyber capabilities, and steps toward image provenance metadata and watermarks.Timestamps:(00:00:10) Intro / Banter(00:01:15) News PreviewTools & Apps(00:05:05) Google unveils AI model Gemini 3.5 and AI agent Gemini Spark(00:11:43) Google's Gemini Omni turns images, audio, and text into video — and that's just the start | TechCrunch(00:17:27) Google launches Antigravity 2.0 with an updated desktop app and CLI tool at IO 2026 | TechCrunch(00:22:35) Google Debuts AI-Powered Tools To Optimize Scientific Research Workflows(00:27:20) Google's Genie world model can now simulate real streets with Street View | TechCrunch(00:29:51) Cursor's Composer 2.5 matches Opus 4.7 and GPT-5.5 benchmarks at a fraction of the cost(00:37:37) xAI Introduces Its Coding Agent Called Grok BuildApplications & Business(00:41:55) Musk loses OpenAI court battle as he waited too long to sue(00:48:08) Anthropic agrees terms of $30bn funding deal at $900bn valuation(00:53:12) OpenAI co-founder Andrej Karpathy joins Anthropic's pre-training team | TechCrunch(00:56:49) Greg Brockman Officially Takes Control of OpenAI's Products in Latest Shake-Up | WIRED(00:58:15) OpenAI-Apple Partnership Frays, Setting Up Possible Legal Fight - Bloomberg(01:01:13) AI chipmaker Cerebras soars 90% in year's biggest IPO so farResearch & Advancements(01:07:10) AI just solved an 80-year-old ‘Erdős problem,' and mathematicians are amazed | Scientific American(01:11:50) Negation Neglect: When models fail to learn negations in training(01:13:18) All Circuits Lead to Rome: Rethinking Functional Anisotropy in Circuit and Sheaf Discovery for LLMs(01:16:20) Autonomous AI research for nanogpt speedrun(01:21:59) TerminalWorld: Benchmarking Agents on Real-World Terminal TasksPolicy & Safety(01:23:15) America's dangerous, messy deepfakes crackdown is here | The Verge(01:25:17) Language Models Can Autonomously Hack and Self-Replicate(01:28:48) How fast is autonomous AI cyber capability advancing?(01:31:32) Positive Alignment: Artificial Intelligence for Human FlourishingSynthetic Media & Art(01:33:15) OpenAI is making it easier to check if an image was made by their models | TechCrunch(01:33:56) How Chinese short dramas became AI content machines | MIT Technology ReviewSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I sit down with Logan Kilpatrick from the Google DeepMind team, live at Google I/O, to unpack everything Google just announced and what it means for founders and builders. We cover Gemini 3.5 Flash, the new Gemini Omni world model, the expanded Antigravity ecosystem, managed agents in the Gemini API, and the native Android app builder inside AI Studio. Logan shares how distillation keeps pushing Pro-level intelligence into Flash, where the real opportunities sit for solo founders, and why the agentic era has finally crossed the chasm from demo to useful. If you have an idea and want to ship something this week, this episode maps the toolkit. Timestamps 00:00 – Intro 00:53 – Gemini 3.5 Flash: The New Workhorse Model 01:49 – How Flash 3.5 Stacks Up Against Sonnet 02:38 – Gemini Omni: A World Model for Any Input and Output 06:18 – Building a Content and Creator Layer on Omni 08:21 – What to look forward to 10:53 – Google Spark and Managed Agents 14:00 – The Agentic Era and Requests for Startups 17:17 – The Antigravity Ecosystem Overhaul 18:51 – AI Studio vs. Antigravity: Vibe Coding vs. Agentic Engineering 21:31 – Native Android Apps Built Inside AI Studio 23:44 – Closing Thoughts Key Points Gemini 3.5 Flash ships as a Sonnet-level workhorse model tuned for long-running agentic tasks, coding, and tool use, available on day one to 900M+ Gemini app users. Gemini Omni is a single model that takes any input and produces any output across video, image, audio, and music, fusing Veo, Nano Banana, Lyria, and TTS into one system. Managed agents in the Gemini API let builders ship agentic products with a single API call, using skills and markdown instead of writing orchestration code. The Antigravity suite now spans an IDE, agent manager, CLI, SDK, and API surface, all sharing the same agent harness that powers Gemini Spark. AI Studio targets vibe coding and now builds native Android apps for free, while Antigravity targets production-quality, million-line-codebase engineering. The cost of intelligence keeps dropping thanks to distillation, opening up smaller markets that previously needed a 40-person team and venture funding to address. The #1 tool to find startup ideas/trends - https://www.ideabrowser.com LCA helps Fortune 500s and fast-growing startups build their future - from Warner Music to Fortnite to Dropbox. We turn 'what if' into reality with AI, apps, and next-gen products https://latecheckout.agency/ The Vibe Marketer - Resources for people into vibe marketing/marketing with AI: https://www.thevibemarketer.com/ FIND ME ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenberg Instagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/ FIND LOGAN ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://x.com/OfficialLoganK Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LoganKilpatrickYT LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/logankilpatrick/

The NetBSD/FreeBSD Merge announcement, the rise and fall of SPARC, GhoseBSD 26.2 and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines NetBSD/FreeBSD will not merge, November 1993 announcement Rise and Fall of SPARC: Why No One Misses It News Roundup Help needed testing GhostBSD 26.2 Redundant DHCP server and DNS Resolver using OpenBSD and FreeBSD Universities And In house Tech Beating my head on OpenVPN Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Paul - Feedback Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

Take the 2026 AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and AIE WF tickets!On the product side, everyone is getting Computer - Perplexity, Manus, Cursor, and so on. Meanwhile on the research side, agentic evals like TerminalBench and GDPVal are also assuming computer (Harbor). On both ends, the consolidating LLM OS stack has become a standard toolkit, and Daytona is one of a small set of AI Infra companies that are booming because of it.“The end of localhost” has been Ivan Burazin's obsession for more than a decade.Something that is all too familiar…Long before agents became the default way people talked about software development, Ivan was already chasing the idea that development should not depend on a fragile local machine. CodeAnywhere, one of the first browser-based IDEs, was an early attempt at that future: move the development environment into the cloud, make setup reproducible, and free developers from the endless “works on my machine” tax.The thesis was directionally right, but the market wasn't ready yet.However, agents changed that. They do not care about a laptop, desk setup, or favorite editor. They need a computer they can access through an API: something stateful enough to keep working, fast enough to spin up instantly, flexible enough to resize, isolated enough to be safe, and composable enough to run the messy real-world workflows that real software engineering actually requires.Daytona isn't just selling “sandboxes” in the narrow code-execution sense. It is the latest version of Ivan's original localhost thesis.In this episode, Daytona's CEO joins swyx to explain why AI agents need more than code execution boxes: they need composable computers, stateful sandboxes, instant startup, dynamic resources, and infrastructure that can survive workloads going from zero to 100,000 CPUs.We go deep on the new agent compute market: Daytona's hard pivot from human dev environments to AI sandboxes, the New Year's Eve MVP that customers begged for, why Daytona runs on bare metal with its own scheduler, how one customer runs almost 850,000 sandboxes a day, and why RL/eval workloads went from 0% to roughly 50% of usage in just months. Ivan also explains why agents need Windows and macOS machines, why CLI may matter more than MCP, why Kubernetes is painful for this workload, and why the future AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWS.We discuss:* How Daytona grew out of CodeAnywhere, Shift, and the “end of localhost” thesis* Why Daytona pivoted from human dev environments to AI sandboxes* Why agents need composable computers instead of disposable code execution boxes* The New Year's Eve MVP that customers chased API keys for* Why Daytona chose bare metal, stateful snapshots, and its own scheduler* How Daytona spins up one sandbox in ~60ms and 50,000 sandboxes in ~75 seconds* Why Daytona's biggest customer runs ~850,000 sandboxes a day* How RL/eval workloads create zero-to-100,000 CPU spikes* Why RL workloads went from 0% to roughly 50% of Daytona usage* Why customers compare Daytona against EKS/GKS and say they're “never going back”* Why every AI agent may need a computer, including Windows and macOS environments* The Apple licensing constraints that make macOS sandboxes hard* Why CLI gives agents more power than MCP* How open source helps agents integrate Daytona* Why agent-generated PRs may break today's CI/CD assumptions* Why AI SaaS companies reselling tokens may face a cold shower* Why the AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWSIvan Burazin* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanburazin* X: https://x.com/ivanburazinDaytona* Website: https://www.daytona.io* X: https://x.com/daytonaioTimestamps* 00:00:00 Hook* 00:01:12 Introduction* 00:03:15 CodeAnywhere, Shift, and the end of localhost* 00:05:58 What Daytona is: composable computers for AI agents* 00:08:07 The pivot from dev environments to AI sandboxes* 00:10:17 The New Year's Eve MVP and customers begging for API keys* 00:12:56 Bare metal, stateful sandboxes, and Daytona's scheduler* 00:17:28 60ms startup, 50,000 sandboxes, and 850K daily runs* 00:21:53 Spiky RL/eval workloads and the new agent infra problem* 00:28:12 RL workloads, Kubernetes pain, and dynamic resizing* 00:33:31 Why every AI agent needs a computer* 00:38:48 macOS sandboxes and Apple's licensing problem* 00:44:28 Why CLI may matter more than MCP* 00:48:11 Open source, GitHub stars, and agent integration* 00:53:11 Git, CI/CD, and agent collaboration bottlenecks* 00:58:15 Founder life and building a 25-person infra company* 01:02:44 AI SaaS, token resale, and API-first business models* 01:06:10 GPU sandboxes, data centers, and compute growth* 01:09:48 Why the AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWS* 01:11:26 Closing thoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Daytona, CodeAnywhere, and the End of LocalhostSwyx [00:00:02]: Okay, we're in the studio with Ivan Burazin, CEO of Daytona. Welcome.Ivan [00:00:07]: Thanks for having me, man.Swyx [00:00:08]: Ivan, you and I go back.Ivan [00:00:10]: Way back.Swyx [00:00:11]: How I don't even know how, you found, did you reach out or, for Shift.Ivan [00:00:17]: I reached out to you. The reason was you - we were just - we were thinking about I was one of the co-founders of CodeAnywhere, the first browser-based IDE, and so we were thinking a long time of, localhost should die. And you had this article.Swyx [00:00:29]: End of localhost.Ivan [00:00:30]: Then I reached out to you because of that, and then we talked, and I was actually at a different job and learning about I was the head of, developer experience, and you were quite well-versed in that, and I actually reached out to you, among other people, how do we go about that? What are the key things and whatnot at this point in time? And you were nice enough to take the call, and I remember I was late on your call with you.Swyx [00:00:51]: I don't remember.Ivan [00:00:52]: I remember because I was with my then I'm thinking of a girlfriend or wife at that point in time, I'm not sure. It's the same person, so that's great, and I was late ‘cause we were, in, Italy on, vacation, and then I was late for something. I felt so bad, and you were so nice to be, good about.Swyx [00:01:10]: The reason I'm nice is because I'm also late to other people, so it's like, who's, who's without sin here, yeah, so I have to, for those who don't know, InfoBip Shift, there's this whole thing that, you did in the past, and, and that was basically one of the inspirations for me starting AI Engineer, which is like, I have to thank you for giving me that push to be like, “Oh, you can, you can build and sell conferences?”Ivan [00:01:34]: I remember you asked you asked me at the beginning to give me advisory shares, and I was so focused on what we were doing, I said no, and I should've took the advisory shares. So I'm sorry, dude. But anyway.Swyx [00:01:43]: We're not, we're not venture backed.Ivan [00:01:44]: No, it doesn't matter.Swyx [00:01:45]: It's Yeah, anyway, so I think what's impressive about you is that CodeAnywhere is the thing that you've been trying to build, and, you kind of put it on hold and then came back after InfoBip. Just give us the story, do you - the story and the origin story, going into Daytona.From CodeAnywhere and Shift to DaytonaIvan [00:02:05]: Sure. Like, really way back, me and my co-founder have been together. I say this, I've said this multiple times, it's like we were married and divorced and married. Some people actually ask me is my co-founder my partner. they thought it literally. It's not literally, but we have done multiple companies together, and to your point, we had this shift where we went from the CodeAnywhere to the conference called Shift, and then back to, Daytona. We originally started stacking servers, doing like virtualization in the early 2000s and, routers and doing basically all these things, at a foundational level, and that was a services company which we sold to focus on what my co-founder actually invented, which was the very first browser-based IDE, right, I say the first. Before us was actually Heroku. They did it for a very short time until they became Heroku. But outside of them, we were the only one, and it was called.Swyx [00:02:55]: There was Cloud9.Ivan [00:02:57]: Cloud9 came out slightly after us. There was Replit, which came out when we stopped doing it, Replit came out, and they have been successful since then, which is great. There was Nitrous.io. There was quite a few that existed at the time, but it was like too early. But the interesting part is that we, at that point in time, because there was no VS Code, there was no Kubernetes, and Docker had just started when we Or I'm not sure if it was even public at that point in time. And so we had to build everything to the whole stack ourselves and that was the key learning that we brought into and that we've been using in Daytona today. So it was super early. There's about 3 million people used CodeAnywhere. It was slightly, it was angel-backed more than venture-backed. We ended up paying everyone back because it didn't have that sort of scale. But, three years ago, we started something similar with Daytona, which is not what we are today, but it was automating dev environments for human engineers, the basically the underlying stack of CodeAnywhere. And then we did a hard pivot last January to sandboxes. And so here we are.Swyx [00:04:01]: Historic pivot, yeah, and, it's one of those things where, I had independently invested in CodeAnywhere, but also in E2B, and then both of you pivoted into the same thing, and I'm like, “F**k.”Ivan [00:04:12]: You invested, you invested in Daytona. You invested in Daytona. But you were the first If we had not got your check, we wouldn't have done it.Swyx [00:04:18]: No way.Ivan [00:04:19]: No, it was like, “We have to get him on board first,” and you were that kicker that we, that got us off the ground.Swyx [00:04:23]: No, because you were putting me on your pitch deck, man. I was like, “Man, this is like a good trip if I don't invest.”Ivan [00:04:29]: That's because it was your quote. It's like we.Swyx [00:04:30]: Yeah. It's the end of localhost.Ivan [00:04:31]: Did a bunch of research about end of localhost and who was interested in that,.Swyx [00:04:34]: No, that's like, I put, I wrote that blog post, and every single company in that field reached out to me, and then every VC who was receiving those pitches then also had to call me and, talk it, talk through it with me.Ivan [00:04:47]: It's finally happening though.Swyx [00:04:48]: It was really super interesting.Ivan [00:04:48]: It's finally happening.Swyx [00:04:49]: It's finally happening.Ivan [00:04:49]: Yeah, it's finally.Swyx [00:04:49]: It's finally happening, with maybe sort of non-human users. Yeah, so what is Daytona today? Let's get like a quick description. I'm wearing the shirt.What Daytona Is Today: Composable Computers for AI AgentsIvan [00:04:58]: You're wearing the shirt. Yes,.Swyx [00:04:59]: It says, I think your branding is very good. Like, it's very consistent. It runs AI code. Like, it cannot be simpler.Ivan [00:05:05]: Exactly, but we're gonna probably have to change that.Swyx [00:05:07]: Oh, s**t.Ivan [00:05:07]: It's also a subset of what we do. Unfortunately, we really love this, Run AI Code is super simple. People interpret it different ways. I think we've given out 5,000, 6,000 of these shirts. People wear them with pride because it doesn't really market about us.Swyx [00:05:21]: Yeah, Daytona's on the back.Ivan [00:05:22]: It markets the back. It markets to the person itself, so I think we did a really good job on that one. But it is also a subset of what we do, because people, when they think about Run AI Code, they just think about these small, let's call it isolates, code execution boxes that, you send some code, you get an output. Whereas what Daytona is today is essentially composable computers for AI agents. It is, the market calls them sandboxes which can be misleading.Swyx [00:05:44]: All these things. All these things on.Ivan [00:05:45]: Yeah, exactly, ‘cause it can be misleading ‘cause people usually think about sandboxes as a demo or a test environment versus a production-grade environment. But what Daytona does, if you think of the laptop that you have in front of you or the computer that's over there, or, my wife is an architect, so she has like a Windows with a 3D graphics card inside to do 3D rendering. Like, as humans, we have different computers or different compositions of computers. And our belief is strongly that agents today and going forward will need all these different compositions of computers to do different types of tasks. And so we offer that basically through an API.Swyx [00:06:19]: Yeah, to give people - I'm trying to sort of front-load all the aha moments or the wow moments so that people can, stay engaged and click like and subscribe. the market is exploding, right? Like, you have been reporting 74% month-on-month growth, and it also, it's just been growing for a while. Like, it's been going like this. And every single - It's not just you guys. It's every single.Ivan [00:06:41]: Everyone, yeah.Swyx [00:06:42]: Sort of, compute provider. I don't know if you agree with me saying compute provider or not.Ivan [00:06:48]: It's fine.Swyx [00:06:48]: Yeah. So like organically PLG-driven growth, but also enterprise is doing super well, I think I wanna rewind to January of last year when you did the pivot. Like, so you obviously called this market early, and you were positioned for it, and you are now one of the market leaders. But what was the insight that made you do the pivot?The Pivot: From Human Dev Environments to Agent SandboxesIvan [00:07:06]: The insight that made us do this pivot is the quarter before that, so end of 2024, when we had - Basically, we did a demo with - I don't I think we discussed this as well, Devin was not public. You actually gave me access to Devin at that time. So Devin.Swyx [00:07:25]: I did?Ivan [00:07:26]: Yeah, you gave me access.Swyx [00:07:26]: I don't think I was supposed.Ivan [00:07:27]: Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:07:28]: Yeah, I.Ivan [00:07:28]: So it doesn't matter. You.Swyx [00:07:29]: Yeah. I gave like three friends access.Ivan [00:07:31]: Yeah, or it was a call and you showed it to me. It doesn't matter. but OpenDevin was available, which is now called OpenHands. And so we're like, “Oh, this seems to be a thing. This is not public. Let's take our for human automation of dev environments and take, OpenDevin and launch that as a SaaS.” And we did that. Not very many people signed up and used it, but a lot of people reached out that were building agents, and they were like, “Hey, my agent needs a compute sandbox runtime,” whatever you wanna call it. I forgot what it was called at that point. And then we were like, “Oh, amazing. This is a new market. Here is our infrastructure. Here's our product, and go.” And what we found really fast, soon, was that people did not like what we had built. It didn't work. And I remember talking to people at the beginning when we're doing this, the sandbox we're building for agents. People were like, “Oh, why is it different? It's the same thing. We have like EC2, we have VMs, we have all these things.” But we saw that everyone we gave it to, it was like 20, 30 people, they all said, “No.” Like, “This is not what we need. This sort of breaks.” And basically, me and my co-founder not knowing a lot about - ‘cause we're infra people. We're not AI people. So I basically took it upon myself to like watch every single podcast that exists, including all of, all of these and all that, and sort of get up to date, read all the blogs, like get, understand what's going on.Swyx [00:08:45]: Do you wanna shout out who else was useful, just in case people are also looking.Ivan [00:08:49]: Generally we -, I looked at There's a few of podcast, different segments and different types. So there's you guys, No Priors, Bill Gurley's was great while.Swyx [00:09:04]: VG2, yeah.Ivan [00:09:05]: Yeah, while it was around. So there's a few. 20VC is interesting from a different dynamic, and some are different dynamic. But there was, also Red Points.Swyx [00:09:14]: We're not really about the compute market.Ivan [00:09:15]: It was also already - Sorry?Swyx [00:09:16]: You're, you want - You're looking at the agent infra market.Ivan [00:09:19]: I was looking at the agent market and the AI market in general and sort of understanding who are the players, what the perception, and how that goes. And like obviously you complement this with like going to conferences, going to events, going to meetups, reading white papers, like doing all the things that you have to do to understand what's happening. And so when we figured, when we sort of had an idea of what we had to build, literally over the New Year's Eve, literally on New Year's Eve, I half vibe coded the first MVP, first minimal viable product of what Daytona is today. And I went to sleep at like 3:00 AM or something like that. I was doing - I just put my like baby daughter and wife to sleep and, Happy New Year's, and go back to just, doing this. And I sent it to my co-founder, my CTO, and he saw it in the morning. He's like, “This is absolute garbage.” “Do not show this to anybody at all, but the idea is good.” And so he took two weeks, and he rebuilt it.Swyx [00:10:09]: Did it like look like that? Listen, I - It was rough idea.Ivan [00:10:12]: Oh, not even, not even close. Like it was it was way worse. But it was like a very - It was a simplistic view of what it should be. Like, it worked, but it was not ideal. And so he went, we went down the whole, which is his job as CTO, to go, and he came back with this version. We then called all the people that had said like, “This is garbage,” a quarter ago. And we set up these calls, and we gave it to - We just demoed it to everyone. And all the calls went long, every single one. They were 15-minute calls, and they all went to like 25, 30 minutes or whatnot. And everyone said, “We need, we want access.” There was no login, just an API key, ‘cause it was just a beta or an alpha. And they said, “Oh, we want access.” And we're like, “Sure, yeah. Okay, thank you very much.” But after like the next day, if we'd not send it, every single one, like every call that we did, everyone came back, “Where is my API key?” Like everyone wanted it. We're like, “S**t.” Like this is it. Like I've never felt So one, the understanding to your point was like most people thought it was the same infrastructure for humans and agents. We understood a quarter ago it's not. We just didn't know what was the right primitive. And then when we came, and we can talk about what that is, and we gave it to these people, I've never seen, I've never experienced - I've done multiple companies in my life. I've never experienced this, that people literally call you if you do not give them access. Like they want access right now. And so it's like, okay, they don't want this. the thing that they want doesn't seem to exist, or they have not found it, and they really want what we want. And then when we understood that we're onto something, and then when you think about the size of the market, like the market for human engineers and enterprise is a very large market, so think GitLab or whatnot. But the market for every single agent that will exist ever in the future is just like, what is that market? How big is that? And we're like, “We are all in on this.” And so that is where we made sort of the cut between the old product and the new one.Bare Metal, Stateful Sandboxes, and the Lambda + EC2 ModelSwyx [00:12:02]: Yeah. But it wasn't composable at the time?Ivan [00:12:05]: It was very - It was basically just a Linux box that you could change, that you could define number of CPUs, disk, and RAM. Like that is what you could do, but you couldn't have multiple operating systems, you couldn't resize it on the fly, you couldn't add a GPU, you couldn't do like all the things. It was just the, just the first sort of variation of that, yeah.Swyx [00:12:22]: Was it bare metal from the start?Ivan [00:12:24]: It was bare metal from the start. And so the interesting thing that we thought about right away, so our.Swyx [00:12:29]: Which, give people the background, what is the normal path?Ivan [00:12:32]: Yeah, so, basically most providers run this on top of VMs. And also.Swyx [00:12:37]: Firecracker.Ivan [00:12:38]: Yeah, they run on Firecracker and VM. And so we also fire - We can get - We have multiple isolation layers and we can do that. But the common way to do it is that they, one, that the state of the machine, or the hard disk is not part of the sandbox itself. And the other thing is they're not meant to last forever. So most of them are preemptible, like they can There's a time that they can live. And so our thought was when we were going into this is, agents will be like humans in the sense of you don't want your laptop to be shut down until you're done with work. Like, and you want to close the lid and open the lid, it's the same state. So you - Agents would want that, like the pause and come back. They want those two things. But also agents really want speed, right? Can they get it? So when we thought about it's like we need something insanely fast, how to make it fast, how to make it long-running, and stateful. And so those two things, it's like combining a Lambda and an EC2, right? Those two things together. And so we didn't have an idea how others did it, ‘cause we didn't know too that there was a market around this. It was more like, okay, this is what we need, what they need. And we looked at Kubernetes, it wasn't wasn't good enough for that. We looked at Nomad, it didn't enable that. And so our history in rewriting our own scheduler at CodeAnywhere is basically what my CTO came up with. Like, he's like, “Oh, the learnings from there,” and he brought it. And the funny thing is, our third co-founder, when he saw it, he's like, “Dude, what is this? This is like 2008.” Like, we went back in time, and he's like, “Exactly.” And so the reason why Daytona is like super fast, and you see this on benchmarks, is we essentially, we run on bare metal. We have our own scheduler, we use the underlying, disk, CPU, and RAM of the underlying machine, which means your IOPS are insanely fast because there's no, there's no network between an EBS or something like that. But also the snapshot, the point in time, the templates, are also preloaded on the bare metal machines. So when you fire off a sandbox from a template or a snapshot, you're essentially directed to the bare metal machine where that snapshot is based on that NVMe drive, and then it literally just turns on that machine, and it's local. There's no network latency, anything on there. And so that is sort of the specificities that we, when we're thinking from first principles, what a computer would look like for an agent, that is what we came up with, and that's what we created.Benchmarks, 60ms Startup, and 50,000 SandboxesSwyx [00:15:02]: Yeah. I should maybe, I don't know if you endorse this, but there's someone that does compute SDK, you guys do very well on there, with like the TTI, right? I. is this a, is this a is this a relevant benchmark for you guys? I don't know.Ivan [00:15:16]: I don't know, and it changes every day. So today RKL is.Swyx [00:15:18]: I don't know what RKL is. Never heard of it.Ivan [00:15:20]: Yeah. RK, yeah, so it is there.Swyx [00:15:22]: You are, at least a third of the next tier of performance, and then, there's a lot of other better-known names that are very slow to start.Ivan [00:15:31]: Yeah. We've been the number one by far for a long time, and now there's different, there's different definitions also of sandboxes, different isolation patterns, different other things. So RKL runs it literally on the S3, the data, so it's very different, and they spin up a sandbox, spin up a container for that, so it's a different type of thing. So the definition of a sandbox is something that we can all, we all need to get along with. But yeah, we're insanely fast on getting these things, up and running. And so you can see even there that it's a zero point 0.10 to 0.11, so.Swyx [00:16:03]: Close enough. Yeah. what else do you need, right?Ivan [00:16:05]: Yeah. So the benchmarks itself, so, in this, in I don't think the benchmarks equate to market ownership or revenue or anything like that. and I've seen this with multiple benchmarks, not just in sandboxes, but in general benchmarks around.Swyx [00:16:20]: It's table stakes. It's just like.Ivan [00:16:21]: Exactly. But it doesn't hurt.Swyx [00:16:22]: Just roughly check.Ivan [00:16:22]: Like you definitely have to be up there and you have to be competing so that people know that, oh, this is definitely one of the top. Because this is only one dimension of what customers look for. There's other things like how many can you spin up consecutively? There's a feature set, there's support, there's like all different things that people look at, but you definitely have to be there, on the benchmarks.Swyx [00:16:40]: How many people do people spin up consecutively?Ivan [00:16:43]: So we have.Swyx [00:16:43]: Or concurrently, is the Concurrency, right?Ivan [00:16:45]: There's three metrics that we look at. And so one is like time to spin up one, and so our time to spin up one is 60 milliseconds with network latency. So request, spin up, reply, 60, the whole thing, 60 milliseconds. That is one. But if you wanna spin up 50,000 at once, we are now at about 75 seconds. So it takes about 75 seconds to spin up concurrently 50,000. Some others, there's public data around this, like take 2,000 seconds, which is 30 minutes. Like there's different variations of that. And then there is the so it is speed of one, speed of like multiple, and then how many can you consistently have up and running. And so we basically have right now no limit to how much we can add because we basically own our own metal. But the biggest customer of ours does like about 850,000 every single day is sort of where they're, where they're just shy of a million every single day that they're running, we do have a request for half a million concurrent, which is literally half a million CPUs somewhere running. So that's an interesting.Swyx [00:17:44]: They pay by like vCPU seconds.Ivan [00:17:47]: By seconds, yeah.Swyx [00:17:47]: Or whatever. Yeah. Okay, and so and then, and the other thing is, the sleeping and the resuming, ‘cause it's all the stateful resumption of all these things, how, what kind of workload are people putting through this, right? Like how is it Do we measure by gigabytes in memory, gigabytes in storage? I don't In like network attached storage. I, what are the costly ones of, out of all these features?Workload Economics: CPU, RAM, Network, and StorageIvan [00:18:15]: The most expensive thing are CPU.Swyx [00:18:18]: Okay. Yeah, of course.Ivan [00:18:18]: The second one, yeah Then it's RAM, then it's disk. We actually don't charge.Swyx [00:18:22]: Which is snapshotting, right?Ivan [00:18:23]: No, it's actually the, snapshotting's part of it, but basically the size of your hard disk, of your machine. So do you have 10 gigabytes, do you have 20, do you have 50, do you have whatever? And then the transference of that. Right now, currently we don't charge for, network at all at Polychron.Swyx [00:18:37]: Oh, you gotta, yeah, you gotta fix.Ivan [00:18:38]: Yeah. It is very much a it's a larger and larger part of our bill, so we're working around, that part there. Obviously, that is the least, expensive, so the hard disk is the least expensive, so it's basically CPU, RAM, for us network, ‘cause we don't charge the customer, and then hard disk, is how it's split up. But there's also different types of workloads, so we basically split it up into two types of workloads in Daytona. One is what we call background agents or long-running agents. and the other is, basically RLs and evals, which I put sort of together. And so they have very different patterns of usage, and if you look at the usage of a background And I'll just name names of companies, not specifically.Background Agents vs. RL/Evals: Two Usage ShapesSwyx [00:19:21]: Yeah, open, all hands.Ivan [00:19:23]: Yeah. So like a background agent's a Cognition, a Lovable, a like all these things are Harvey. These are all long-running, background agents. And so if you look at their usage patterns, their usage patterns are similar to human, which is like follow the sun. Basically, the usage patterns of that is like noon is probably the highest, and the midnight is the lowest, and then weekends are lower. weekday is higher.Swyx [00:19:42]: Yeah, that's a fun question. How global is it? Is it very US-centric or?Ivan [00:19:46]: The US is a large part, but we have currently, we have Asia, Europe, and the US regions.Swyx [00:19:52]: So it's quite global.Ivan [00:19:53]: Yeah, it's quite global. We have it all over. It's interesting that our I talked to you a bit about this. Our number one city by user.Swyx [00:20:01]: Hmm.Ivan [00:20:02]: Is Singapore.Swyx [00:20:04]: Oh, wow. Amazing.Ivan [00:20:05]: Which is an interesting one, right? Not by revenue, just by just like by individual head count.Swyx [00:20:09]: Really?Ivan [00:20:09]: Just like an interesting thing.Swyx [00:20:10]: Singapore is, Singapore is weirdly high in the adoption charts of AI for the population. It's like an, seven, eight million population. And it's like keeps showing up.Ivan [00:20:20]: No, it's quite interesting. We were quite shocked, and I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” And also one that's up there.Swyx [00:20:24]: There's a reason I'm doing AI using Singapore. it's because I'm from there.Ivan [00:20:27]: We're there. We're gonna, we're gonna be there as well. and it's interesting that Japan is in the top or like Tokyo's in the top, which is in all the tech cycles it has never been. It has never been, so it's quite interesting that they're.Swyx [00:20:39]: I think the Japanese just love AI. Yeah. It's that, and then it's Brazil. That's it.Ivan [00:20:44]: Brazil has always been in.Swyx [00:20:45]: I think.Ivan [00:20:46]: Even when I look, if you look at like GitHub's data and ask historically with CodeAnywhere, it was always like US, Western Europe, and then you'd have like India, Brazil, China, like that would be there. But like Singapore was not in, specifically Japan was never in sort of that top, that top.Swyx [00:21:01]: Yeah. Weird pockets.Ivan [00:21:01]: Weird. Yeah, so it's very global.Swyx [00:21:02]: Okay, so actually that, but that's helps you to distribute your load through, all time?Ivan [00:21:08]: The interesting thing is like we have those kind of loads, but if you look at the researcher loads, they're quite different. So what they are is like if you give them concurrency of 10,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 CPUs at ARMb, when they fire off a run, it's just 100%. And then it just runs, and then it stops. So it's very, the usage pattern is squares basically, right? And it's also not follow the sun, because people will fire it off at midnight before they go to sleep but then wake up and so it's very unpredictable, so you don't know where that is. So the shapes of the usage are quite different than we have had before. And also what's interesting is when it's sort of a follow the sun, even if you have a high growth company, you can sort of predict your usage patterns and have enough capacity for that, because it's sort of, it grows in a, in a way you can project. When you have companies doing sort of like evals and RL, they're super spiky. So they're gonna come in, it's like, “We're gonna use nothing, then can we have 100,000?” Right? And then go back down. And then 100,000, go back down. So it's very different, right? And.Swyx [00:22:09]: Do you want to lock them into commits so.Ivan [00:22:11]: Yeah, we do.Swyx [00:22:12]: Yeah, okay.Ivan [00:22:12]: We so we have to lock them into some sort of commits to have that capacity, because we have to have, basically we have to have the capacity for peak. Right? And so right now, Daytona's mean utilization is 15%, 1-5.Swyx [00:22:25]: Oh my God.Ivan [00:22:26]: So it's very low.Swyx [00:22:27]: Because it's very spiky.Ivan [00:22:27]: It's very spiky, but we get up to 90%. so we have these things. And so what we're, what we're looking at right now as a company is similar to Cloudflare where you can like geo move things around, but that works really well for basically the background agent where it's follow the sun. But this, it's not. Like it's a very different shape. Obviously with scale you figure these things out, but that's an interesting new problem that we have, as a compute provider in the agent space. And when we were doing the conference recently, and so we talked to like Nikita from Neon and.Swyx [00:22:57]: I should bring it up.Ivan [00:22:58]: Parag from Parallel and whatnot, everyone has the same problem. Whereas the usage is super spiky, and this is something that has not happened before, that you have these types of like it was always, it the amplitudes were not this high, right? So it's quite interesting use case and problem solve.Compute Conference and Spiky Agent InfrastructureSwyx [00:23:12]: Yeah, I don't know if we're gonna bring this up again, but let's just talk about the conference, you had like 1,000 something people at the Warriors game, at the Sorry, where is it? What's.Ivan [00:23:22]: Chase Center.Swyx [00:23:23]: Chase Center.Ivan [00:23:23]: Chase Center.Swyx [00:23:24]: I went. It was, it was very impressive. Obviously, you can, how to throw a conference, what did you learn? you put, you pulled together all these impressive names.Ivan [00:23:33]: What I.Swyx [00:23:34]: What were you looking for?Ivan [00:23:35]: My thesis behind the Compute Conference was let's bring together people that are building infrastructure for AI agents. Because when I think of what we're building, it is the agent is the primary user, what are the ergonomics and usage patterns of agents, and so we can do that. And what I found, this was a theory, it wasn't proven, is that we all have these problems, as I touched onto. And I was, as I was talking on stage, it was like we all have the same underlying infra problems, which is this spiky workloads, unpredictable workloads that we've never had before, in human, compute or human infrastructure. And it's, again, it's the same when I was talking to Parag or when I was talking.Swyx [00:24:20]: Lynn. Nikita.Ivan [00:24:21]: Lynn, Nikita. Lynn especially, I was talking to her the other day as well. Like the It is a very interesting type of problem to solve because I can touch on Cloudflare because there's a lot of like talk about that recently as to how they solve that, which is they have a bunch of geos, and basically, as users work in different places, and depending on your tier, they can move you around the geos. And so that how, that's how they get the higher utilization. But you can sort of predict these, and it's If it's something in You'll rarely get a spike that is 10 orders of magnitude. Like you'll get a like let's say one of your customers has some like an exponential curve. What is that to I'm using Cloudflare as an example. 10%, 20%, whatever it is. I don't, I don't have this data, I'm just assessing. It's surely not 10x, right? It's surely not something there. And so how do you go out and solve this problem? And we're all solving this in different ways. So we have.Swyx [00:25:11]: She also has the same thing.Ivan [00:25:12]: Yeah, I know specifically that like Neon had that issue as well. Like how are we solving these spiky loads and things like that ‘cause we talked about it. And so the interesting thing for me to actually internalize was, yes, everyone that's building for agents first is going through this, and we're all solving similar problems, which is quite.Swyx [00:25:28]: Let me let me double-click on this. Okay. So for example, Neon, I happen to know that they're very sort of S3 oriented, right? so they're just like fully bet on S3. And you get to benefit from S3's distribution and infrastructure. So I would imagine that Neon doesn't have to care, whereas Lynn maybe has to care a bit more because obviously she's doing GPU inference. And, for listeners, we did an episode with her, one and a half years ago. And you have to care. But like, right?Ivan [00:25:54]: Parag cares for sure, and Nikita.Swyx [00:25:58]: And Parag is C of, Parallel.Ivan [00:25:59]: Parallel, yeah.Swyx [00:26:00]: Former CTO of Twitter.Ivan [00:26:01]: Twitter, yeah.Swyx [00:26:02]: They are the search.Ivan [00:26:03]: Yeah, they're search, yeah.Swyx [00:26:03]: I You and I know but the listeners don't know.Ivan [00:26:08]: Yeah, we can put it down in the screen, and so ‘cause we, when we were talking.Swyx [00:26:11]: I'll put it up on the, on the screen.Ivan [00:26:12]: Yeah, right.Swyx [00:26:12]: People can look it up if they need.Ivan [00:26:14]: Look it up. And, yes, but they still have CPU and RAM, allocation that you have to have up and running. And so CPU and RAM, you have to allocate that and have that ready. And so there's basically two ways to do it. One is you either over-provision and you can handle the bursts, or two, you basically have, I don't know if this is a term, just-in-time compute, which is like as your load becomes, as your usage comes in, you can fire off requests for VMs or bare metals at other cloud providers and then get them up and running.Swyx [00:26:43]: This is if you go above 100%, right?Ivan [00:26:45]: Yeah, this is.Swyx [00:26:46]: Like your overflow.Ivan [00:26:46]: If your overflow, like spillage or whatever you do.Swyx [00:26:48]: You probably lose money on it, but it doesn't matter, right?Ivan [00:26:50]: It, not Well, you might, you might not That is a more cost-effective way to do it but it's a slower way to do it. Because basically what you have to do is you have to like queue your requests, spin up these just-in-time compute, get it all ready, provision it, and then get your workload there. And so if the time isn't important that much, that's fine, and you can do that. But if your customer, and especially for, let's say, the RL training runs, the reason why a lot of people come to us is because GPUs are more expensive than CPUs, right? So you want your GPU running at, what, 100% the entire time. And so when you're running runs on CPUs, when the when the CPU cycle is like down and spinning up the next one, you want that to be instantaneous so that your GPU doesn't go down, right? And if you then have to like go out and provision machines, you're essentially telling the GPU that it has to wait, and that's incurring our cost. So there's things that you have to try to solve for there.RL Workloads, Declarative Images, and Kubernetes ReplacementSwyx [00:27:43]: Yeah, let's talk about the different workload, right? You said that, what was it? A few months ago, you had zero RL workload and now it's 50%.Ivan [00:27:52]: It will be this one, 50%, yeah.Swyx [00:27:54]: Let's talk about how different it is, right? Like I imagine, for example, a lot less dynamic code generation of like arbitrary code. Like here, it's probably all the same code. You're just doing parallel runs or something, I don't know.Ivan [00:28:05]: Yeah. So you'll have multiple Depends on the like for each run, you'll have a snapshot. And they, for the most part, they actually do use our declarative image builder, which is like, “Oh, we, the agent wants these dependencies, these env vars.”Swyx [00:28:17]: These ones, yeah.Ivan [00:28:18]: Yeah, the declarative image builder, it.Swyx [00:28:20]: Which is a very modal like thing that they.Ivan [00:28:22]: Yeah. And so we build it on the fly and then we propagate that snapshot, and you can spin up as many sandboxes as you want against that snapshot. And then if you have to do changes, the model can, or like it could be also be automated. It's like, “Oh, now for the next run, we need to install these things or remove these things or whatever to get, a task done,” and then it goes off and runs that. So yes, that is something that it seems that they prefer. The number one reason I found, or should I say, let's take a step back. What we are competing against in that environment is essentially managed Kubernetes. So EKS, GKE, whatever. That is what the vast majority run on. And anyone that has tried Daytona versus GKE, EKS is like, “I'm never going back.” That has always been. There's a few reasons. One is the ergonomics. So if you have, if you're using Kubernetes to spin that up, you have to essentially manage the interface interactions with that. Daytona, although as a compute provider, it's more akin to a Twilio and Stripe from a consumption perspective than it is an AWS. Like you have an API, an SDK, it's quite like easy and seamless to get these things up and running, that's one. The other is the speed to which we spin up, which we mentioned earlier, which is much faster, and the scale to which we can go to. We haven't got into features, but an interesting feature is that it's very hard to OOM, or out of memory, our sandboxes, because we can dynamically on the fly.Swyx [00:29:48]: Resize.Ivan [00:29:49]: Resize, which is like impossible on almost any other thing. There are some technologies that enable you to do that, but it's like a very hard thing. And so we actually saw this when, the Terminal Revenge team is, brought us actually. So thank you, Alex and the team, that brought us into this whole space.Swyx [00:30:05]: It's just very rare that, a framework would just say, “Guys, just use Daytona.”Ivan [00:30:11]: Yeah, I think it says it somewhere. Yeah.Swyx [00:30:13]: Yeah. I was like, “What is this?”Ivan [00:30:15]: There's all, there's multiple there, but they also mention a few other places. and so Daytona specifically-We have, the, just jumping on themes here We, I don't know where it says Data Center.Swyx [00:30:27]: I, there.Ivan [00:30:27]: Doesn't matter.Swyx [00:30:28]: There's a very strong recommendation, which is, very unusual. Which is, it's.Ivan [00:30:33]: We do not pay them for this, just.Swyx [00:30:34]: I know, yeah. They just like you.Ivan [00:30:35]: Yeah, they like us. yeah, and also a thing, so, Data Center has multiple isolation sets underneath. The customer doesn't have to know what they are. But basically we have Docker, which is a container, that's hardened with Sysbox. So it's Docker's, isolation that is a security equivalent to a VM, but it's still a container. And that is the default, and they, especially in these training workloads, really like that as an interface to be able to use just a basic Docker container, and we enable Docker and Docker. Which for these RL runs, if you need to do a Docker compose or Kubernetes, you can spin up a K3S inside of these things, which unlocks a huge amount of workloads that you can do that you cannot do on other providers. So just on that part is much more interesting. And so we went that, through that. We showed them that we could do that, and they enjoyed that quite a bit. They being the general venture people.Swyx [00:31:28]: Those people, yeah.Ivan [00:31:29]: And Harbor people.Swyx [00:31:29]: Harbor people, do are they, are they a company yet?Ivan [00:31:33]: As far, I do not know.Customer Pull, Slack Connect, and the Computer Use BetSwyx [00:31:35]: Okay. All right. Yeah. It's like super obvious that like, there's a lot of excitement and success around these things, okay, so yeah, tell us more, right? Like, this is an exploding workload, Harbor adopted you, which helped speed things along. But what are you learning as this new workload comes online?Ivan [00:31:53]: There's a couple things that we learned, which we chat about in the beginning. We, and this has led our story, as we mentioned, we like talked to a lot of customers along the way, and we add more features and more tool sets as we talk to customers. And it's interesting that And I think it's that the ecosystem is so small and/or the models get smarter, where when we see one user come with a request, we know it goes on a roadmap if like three to five customers come with the same request in that week. It's like very bizarre. It happens so many times, which is.Swyx [00:32:27]: Because they're all friends.Ivan [00:32:28]: Sorry?Swyx [00:32:28]: They all, they're all friends. They're all in the same group chat.Ivan [00:32:30]: Yeah, probably, yeah. ‘Cause and they're like, “Oh, can you do this?” And I'm like, “Okay, this is interesting. We'll put it on a feature request.” And then the next one's like, “Oh, can you do this?” “Okay.” It's all the same, right? It's always the same. And so what we try to do, and I personally try to do, I try to be on as many call, quote-unquote “sales calls” I can. I'm in every Slack channel. We literally have about 1,000 Slack Connect channels, something like that. It's an interesting, there's so many interesting things you find out when you have all the Slack channels. You can also see where people, transfer between companies. You see leave Slack channel, enter Slack channel. It's an interesting thing. Also, just I digress, I feel that Slack Connect is literally LinkedIn what it should be. You have a list.Swyx [00:33:08]: LinkedIn charges you to, use your own connections, but Slack doesn't, right? Slack is like, do it for free. It's more lock-in. It's great.Ivan [00:33:15]: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's one of the reasons.Swyx [00:33:17]: You're gonna pay Slack for life.Ivan [00:33:18]: Exactly. You're there for life. So that's interesting. And so one of the things, the newer things we were talking about earlier is we made a big bet and put a lot of investment on computer use. that is not seen publicly the light of day. We haven't GA'd that yet, but we have.Swyx [00:33:32]: Is there a thing I can pull up?Ivan [00:33:33]: There is computer use there. It's right up a bit.Swyx [00:33:36]: Oh, yeah. Okay.Ivan [00:33:38]: What we have, what we talked about and what we've seen publicly is there's this theme now about, the human emulator where And Elon from XAI has talked about this publicly, and if you think about the models today, they're actually quite sophisticated and they can do a lot of work, but they still don't have access to all the tools. Like, I'm a strong believer that the most efficient way for an agent to work is essentially headless or through, terminal or whatnot. But if we, if we look at knowledge work in general, there's about 100 million knowledge workers in the US, about a billion in the world, and knowledge workers, and the salaries of them aggregate to 10 trillion in the US 50 trillion worldwide.Swyx [00:34:24]: Wow.Ivan [00:34:25]: Something like that. And if we look at, the five most important sectors of that, so like healthcare and government and financial services and whatnot, that's about 56% of that. So let's say it's about half of that. So in the US it's about 25 trillion, and most of them, most of that work is actually still locked into legacy apps inside of Windows, which is not going anywhere for a very long time. Like, people just won't invest in that. How much of it? our assumption is the following: if, in the RPA market, which is similar market, well, not the same 25% of, these white collar, workers', work is automated. If an agent is more sophisticated, can go through more runs, figure stuff out, let's say it's, 40%, right? And so if you take 40% of that, you get to essentially, $10 trillion a year.Swyx [00:35:17]: That's a TAM.Ivan [00:35:18]: That is a that is a TAM. So that's the TAM of the models, right? That's not our, essentially ours. But you get to that size, and to be able to do that, you essentially have to give agents these computers with the legacy. So computer use, either Mac or Windows or Linux. Linux we also obviously have and others have. But Windows specifically is something very new, and the only option right now is an EC2 with, Windows or on Azure. Both of them take anywhere from three to five minutes to spin up. We've created an actual sandbox, so it's a second instead of milliseconds, but you have, point in time snapshots, you have, forking, you have all the things that you have from a sandbox, but essentially enables you to hopefully unlock all this value. And so that's been our big push and bet, but we've sort of, kept our ear to the ground. What is sort of the next things in the market?RPA Returns: Why Agents Still Need ComputersSwyx [00:36:06]: Yeah, knowledge work, and building, and sort of RPA, the next wave of RPA. I got very excited about RPA kind of during COVID times. The UI path was IPO-ing. And it was, a very hot Isn't it, Eastern European?Ivan [00:36:20]: It is, Romanian.Swyx [00:36:21]: Romanian?Yeah, it might be the only Romanian, big unicorn okay, yeah. This I don't I don't, I don't have like a I think there's, I think there's a stage being set for the resurgence of RPA, ‘cause everyone understands that, yeah, no one wants to deal with these shitty apps and no one's gonna rewrite them. Like, you just have to do, a remote operation and programmatic operation of them.Ivan [00:36:45]: If you wanna unlock it, my own setup was basically the following. So I was doing a board deck recently, last month, whatever, and I'm like, “Okay, let's just, let's just do automated.” So, all our data's in, ClickHouse and PostHog and QuickBooks, where everyone else's is, and I'm basically, connected that all to, my Cloud code, like go off and go Cloud code whatever. Go off and, here's the integrations, go do that. It pulled out the first report, which was great. It connected to Brex and all these things, pulled it, which was great, and then I say, “Okay, now pull out this, and this,” and I kept getting, really well McKinsey-style design reports, but the data said partial data. all the missing data, partial data. Like, it can't access all the things, and I got so frustrated, and so I got, I got, my Mac Mini virtual sandbox with OpenClaw. I gave it its own account in our company, and then I went to all these services and created a read-only account, so literally like an intern in your company. And so I would say, “Now go and do this report,” and it would get the same, or like, “I can't via the MCP or the API or whatever. I can't get all the information.” I'm like, “Go log in.” And it will log into the website, then go in, export the data. It'll export the data and do the thing end to end. So even for things that have today APIs, not all of it is exposed, and I to get value, I get immense value right now, but it has to be a computer usage, unfortunately, and so I spend a bunch of tokens just on that, but I get the job done. And so if even a startup like ours, and using all the hottest tools, still needs a computer agent what hope does, Goldman have to have a headless, right?Swyx [00:38:22]: Yeah, what a - Why isn't Microsoft doing this?Ivan [00:38:27]: I'm pretty sure, Satya had a post yesterday.Swyx [00:38:29]: Oh, okay. I see.Ivan [00:38:29]: Which was like, “Every agent needs a computer.”Swyx [00:38:31]: I see, I see.Ivan [00:38:32]: So they have launched something recently.Swyx [00:38:34]: Yeah, they have Microsoft Power Automate, I'm sure, I'm sure, they're gonna have their version.macOS Sandboxes, Apple Constraints, and the Windows OpportunityIvan [00:38:39]: Version of that, yeah.Swyx [00:38:39]: You're gonna try to do yours, and it - I always know there's always demand for Mac, but I know it's, tricky to host, macOS sandboxes.Ivan [00:38:49]: We will have macOS sandboxes fairly soon. The problem with macOS, OS sandboxes is, I'm deep in this, I don't know how much interesting is.Swyx [00:38:55]: No, it's.Ivan [00:38:56]: MacOS has this problem.Swyx [00:38:57]: It's a licensing thing, right?Ivan [00:38:58]: Licensing thing. So one, you're allowed to run only two parallel VMs per machine, so that's one. Two, you can only license to a different user every 24 hours. So if you come in and theoretically, if I wanna charge you per second and I charge you one second, I have to have it idle for the rest of the day. I can't have anyone else doing that. So the pricing will be different in the sense that I will have to - we would have to charge for 24 hours, and that's not even, that's not even the most difficult thing. But the, thing above that is, from a security perspective, they enable you to do memory snapshot, pause, resume, but only on the same physical drive, physical machine. And so what you can do in, Windows world or Linux world is that I can move in the background, your snapshot from one to the other and manage load, right? Here, if you wanna do that, you essentially have to have your.Swyx [00:39:49]: Yeah, snapshots. Yeah.Ivan [00:39:50]: Your.Swyx [00:39:51]: It's like.Ivan [00:39:51]: Physical machine.Swyx [00:39:52]: You can't break it up.Ivan [00:39:53]: You can't, you can't move things around that, and all of that is, that part is, from a security standpoint, if it is written. Like, I understand the security aspect of that, but it disables you from doing these agentic, like really scalable agentic workloads.Swyx [00:40:08]: You need to do a vibe-coded, clean room implementation on macOS that you can then - That's like Clean OS or something. I don't know.Ivan [00:40:17]: So. We have.Swyx [00:40:18]: ‘cause like Linux was originally like a clean room rewrite of Unix.Ivan [00:40:21]: Okay. Yeah.Swyx [00:40:21]: Or something like that, right? Like same thing to macOS. Someone needs to do it.Ivan [00:40:25]: Someone will do that, and someone will have some long-running agents for a few days to figure this stuff out. But yeah. So definitely we - we're really close to offering something ‘cause people do want it, but the pricing will be different, and the feature set will be sort of stringent.Swyx [00:40:38]: Yeah, nobody's gonna use this. like, the labs, the labs will because they want to automate macOS.Ivan [00:40:42]: They have to do RL. They have to do RL again. But even if you The - So the point is with the RL part, if you, if you do RL on macOS, then the next iteration of the model comes out, it will be able to use these tools significantly. Then you actually need to run those, that somewhere. So you're gonna have to have that, later on. And from, if anyone at Apple is listening, I very much feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot of the scale of the revenue of compute or licensing they could get if they would just enable a concurrency model similar to what you can get on a Windows and a, and Linux.Swyx [00:41:17]: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure they've heard this before. They just don't care. Yeah, it's And maybe they will change their mind with the new CEO.Ivan [00:41:24]: Yeah. We'll see.Swyx [00:41:25]: We'll see.Ivan [00:41:25]: High hopes.Swyx [00:41:26]: High hopes.Ivan [00:41:26]: High hopes.Swyx [00:41:27]: Okay. But I, it's very clear the market opportunity is huge in Windows, and you can go for a long time on just Windows, but your customers are gonna want both. and I think, it is interesting to me that, this is the sort of God application of agents, right? Like, I don't It was - How big was OpenClaw for you guys? Like, was it, was there, a significant bump.OpenClaw, Agent Labs, and the B2B2C Sandbox MarketIvan [00:41:54]: Not for us because we.Swyx [00:41:54]: Because you already.Ivan [00:41:55]: We're kind of positioned differently. Whereas although it's completely PLG and we have individual developers that use it, most of the users that use Daytona are sort of a B2B2C. Sort of it's either B2B or B2B2C. So, in the researcher world, it's B2B, so you're selling to, labs and neo labs and things like that. But on the long-running agents, it's mostly, from a scale revenue perspective, it's mostly B2B2C, where you have a app layer agent that uses you at a big scale.Swyx [00:42:26]: Like a Manus. Yeah.Ivan [00:42:28]: Like a Manus Lovable type of thing.Swyx [00:42:31]: Yeah. I think that's the question of, well how, um-Uh, yeah, B2B to C is basically to me what I've been calling an agent lab, which is kind of like you're not in a model lab, but you're making a very good wrapper that is a platform that other people can sign up so they don't have to code those things. Yeah, it sound, it sounds like a much better market than the direct OpenClaw market.Ivan [00:42:56]: I've like - We I've done multiple things. So the CodeAnywhere's part of our career path R in the calendar, was very much an end user developer product. And so that is great. It You can get a lot of developer love, and I feel that we do as a company have a bunch of developer love. But it's a different type, where it's people building these things. Again, it's more akin to a Twilio because you don't really run - As a person, you wouldn't run Twilio. I don't know how many people remember. It was like ask your developer billboard and whatnot. And people really love Twilio, but they only used it inside of like, “Oh, I'm building this app or service for thing.” And so we're very much directly to that. And you also know that I used to work for a competitor for Twilio, so it's kind of ingrained, in my DNA.Swyx [00:43:35]: People don't know InfoBip is that big.Ivan [00:43:38]: Yeah, it's.Swyx [00:43:39]: Because.Ivan [00:43:40]: It's a billion euro.Swyx [00:43:40]: They're all American. They're like, “Whatever's in Europe doesn't matter to me.” But like it's the, it's the same size or bigger? Same size?Ivan [00:43:46]: It's about half the size.Swyx [00:43:47]: Half the size?Ivan [00:43:48]: Yeah, about half the size.Swyx [00:43:48]: It's like, yeah.Ivan [00:43:48]: Still huge. Multiple billions a year. Yes.Swyx [00:43:51]: That's crazy.Ivan [00:43:51]: Exactly, and so that - These are like really interesting and large revenue-generating, very sticky businesses. Whereas when you're selling to the - When your focus is the end developer, it is a very hard sell because they're very price sensitive, very price conscious, very around that. And there's very It's very hard to scale. Your cap is the number of people that are willing to spin up - First of all, wanna spin that up, and then spin up multiple of these. Whereas if you're in the enterprise one, like we know everyone's talking about like how many tokens they're spending, I'm spending. Like a lot of companies today are like, “If this is our company, spend as much as you can.” Like basically that is where we're going. And so if you think about that paradigm, where you're selling to companies that say, “Spend as much as you can to generate, productivity,” versus, “Oh, I'm a single person. I have this much budget, and I'm doing this thing because it's fun or it's helping me out or whatever.” Like it is a different, it's a different go-to-market, I think, strategy.MCP, CLIs, and Sandboxes as the Agent RuntimeSwyx [00:44:50]: Yeah, there's a lot of discussion. I'm just kind of going through like the mental list of things that are in your favor, which is, for example, MCP versus CLI. Like obviously you want CLI. It's been very good for you. I feel like it's maybe a drop in the bucket or maybe it's huge. I'm just checking whether it's like these are big trends.Ivan [00:45:10]: Those things you - work well in our favor, to your point just because every.Swyx [00:45:13]: They're kind of drop in the bucket, right?Ivan [00:45:15]: I think it's like sort of all the things come together. And so there's so many things that impact that. To your point, like OpenClaw wasn't huge for us, but like having the agent SDK, from Anthropic, so or Cloud Claude Code was very interesting. The reason why it was interesting is that a lot of, let's call them app I don't know what to call them, app layer agent companies, essentially they are like, “Oh, I can create this new app, this new agent. All I need, I just use Claude Code, and I throw it into a sandbox, and then I have my interface to the human to that.” And so that enabled so many more companies to actually offer this, and then they would pull on sandbox. So that was, that was interesting. And to your point, like MCP, versus the CLI, the MCP is an interface against an API, whereas the CLI is like you can actually go do things. Like this is it. The difference between integrations and actually running scripts or data or analysis against a thing. So being able to use a CLI very well enables the agent to do more things, and it's because that people will invoke a sandbox, they'll run it in the CLI, and but it'll do anal-analysis on that data and then give you an actual result versus just, pulling data from an API source.Swyx [00:46:29]: Yeah, it's a layer of indirection basically, it's the same thing as agentic search versus RAG, which where you're.Ivan [00:46:34]: Exactly, yeah.Swyx [00:46:34]: Just like you just win whenever people put more agents into their workflow. And so like it doesn't really matter, but I'm just kinda teasing out like what else have people heard about that like it's sort of, “Oh yeah, this is another sandbox use case. Oh yeah, that's another one.” Am I, am I missing any big ones?Ivan [00:46:51]: The thing, the thing that people, which is the computer use stuff, which I think is probably the most interesting one, is, and to your point, we've talked to so many people over the last year. It's like, “Oh, like why do you need a sandbox? Why do you need this? Why this?” And to your point, it's like, “Oh, I need sandbox for this. I need sandbox for that. I need sandbox-” It's like, “Oh, I need it for every single thing.” And so basically what I, what I - and it sounds like a broken record, it's like you use a laptop every single day, right? And you are n of one. It's just you. But now imagine how And by the way, the laptop, the computer PC market, the PC market is about equal to the cloud market in total. So it's about 150, 180 billion a year. Something like that. It's about roughly the three cloud hyperscalers is about equal to like Apple, HP, Lenovo, whatever, It's a little bit less, but it's sort of like that. And now imagine And that's just like, so how big is the addressable market? What, how many people are there in the world now? What's the last data?Swyx [00:47:45]: Let's call it eight billion.Ivan [00:47:46]: Eight billion. And so let's say you can have two computer, like you have one personal and one business, whatever. Like so it's double that, right? and so that's 16 billion, right? How many agents are gonna be running in two years, in 10 years, in 100 years? Like And for every single task, they will need one of these. And so how big is that? That market is essentially quote unquote “infinite”. You will get to the point, and Dylan Patel was at the conference talking about, from SemiAnalysis, that talks usually about GPUs, was also talking about how CPUs will now be a bottleneck because it will be the constraint. You won't be able to grow, or we won't be able to have enough of these because there won't be enough CPUs to basically do.Swyx [00:48:23]: Yeah. Well, I actually had a really good podcast with Doug Oliphant, who, which was his president at SemiAnalysis, where they've basically been like, yeah, it's been a GPU shortage first, but then it's cascaded down to memory and now to CPUs.Ivan [00:48:35]: CPU, yeah.Swyx [00:48:35]: It-What's next? So networking. So, networking actually has been in shortage for a while if you're looking at, just GPU networking. But, yeah, it's really crazy the amount of computer use that's going on, yeah, cool. I, other questions are, just the one very big part is the open sourceness which you didn't have to do, your competitors don't do, like it's not, a lot of people are worried about keeping their projects open source because some competitor can just slot fork it. I don't know if there's any reflections on just being an open source company.Open Source, Trust, and Enterprise ProcurementIvan [00:49:15]: Yeah. There's a bunch. So we the original product that we did was open source.Swyx [00:49:19]: Yeah. CodeAnywhere.Ivan [00:49:20]: So doing that was actually very good for us. There's basically a saying of, What's the saying? Like, companies that are, that are doing really well, measure themselves against, free cashflow, that are kinda okay, it's EBITDA, then, it's, it goes all the way down.Swyx [00:49:36]: The worst is like GitHub stars.Ivan [00:49:37]: GitHub stars. GitHub stars are the worst, yeah. So you go all the way down to GitHub stars. And so our original one was GitHub stars. That's what we talked about, we're at the point we're talking about revenue, so we're we've gone up the stack on that. And so we started.Swyx [00:49:47]: No, profit.Ivan [00:49:48]: Yeah. We haven't, we're, we'll get there. We'll get there. But basically at that point we did stars and GitHub and it was useful, and the original variation that we did, it we split the core into its own repo and it was Apache 2.0, so very, permissive. And then we basically would bundl

Take the 2026 AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and AIE WF tickets!This was recorded before Railway suffered a major GCP outage on May 19, despite being a multi-AZ, multi-zone mesh ring, with HA fiber interconnects between their Metal GCP AWS, because workload discoverability was unintentionally still tied to GCP. All has been resolved with a post-mortem.Railway did not start as an AI infrastructure company.It was founded in 2020 years before agents became the default way people thought about deploying software. Jake Cooper, formerly at Bloomberg and Uber, started Railway with a simple obsession: the activation energy to ship something to production should be near zero. Push code, get a URL, iterate. No Docker files, no Kubernetes manifests, no Ansible scripts stacked on Ansible scripts.For years, this was a slow grind. Railway spent its first 18 months hand-acquiring its first 100 users with Jake personally greeting every Discord signup on a second monitor.Today, Railway has raised $124m and is growing very fast. A 35-person team supports 3 million users, adding roughly 100,000 signups a week. Their bare metal data centers have a 3-month payback period vs. renting in the cloud, with 70% margins funding aggressive cloud bursting when needed. The servers they own have actually appreciated in value as RAM prices have climbed basically meaning the value of their hardware now exceeds the capital they've raised.From rebuilding Railway's network overlay over a weekend to moving the vast majority of workloads onto its own bare metal data centers, Jake Cooper is trying to build a new cloud for an agent-native world. In this episode, Railway's founder and “conductor” joins swyx and Alessio to unpack why the next era of software infrastructure is not just “Heroku but newer,” what agents need that humans did not, and why the old deployment loop of Git, PRs, CI/CD, and static cloud resources may be heading for a rewrite.We go deep on Railway's infrastructure stack: own-metal data centers, three-month cloud payback periods, cloud bursting, data center debt, Railpack, Nixpacks, Temporal, feature flags, Central Station, content-addressable filesystems, agent-safe production forks, and why the CLI may become more important than the canvas in an agent world. Jake also shares the founder journey behind Railway, how the company survived losing $500K/month, why it now serves millions of users with only 35 people, and why he believes the pull request is dying.We discuss:* How Railway went from a slow six-year grind to adding 100,000 users a week* How Railway thinks about agents as the next dominant software species* Why agents need version control, observability, compute, storage, and orchestration at 1000x scale* The economics of Railway's own-metal data centers and three-month payback* How Railway uses cloud bursting while scaling its own infrastructure* Why data center debt can be a better tool than venture debt for infra startups* Central Station, Railway's internal system for clustering customer feedback and incidents* Why responsible disclosure and over-communication matter for platforms* Why feature flags, progressive rollouts, and shadow traffic are essential for agents* Temporal's strengths, pain points, and why workflows matter for agents* Railpack, Nixpacks, Nix, and lazy-loaded content-addressable filesystems* Why “cattle, not pets” may change if you can clone the pets* Why Railway is building a new cloud from scratch instead of copying hyperscalers* The solo founder path, focus, writing, and how Jake thinks about company buildingRailway:* Website: https://railway.com/* X: https://x.com/RailwayJake Cooper:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejakecooper/* X: https://x.com/JustJakeTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction: What Is Railway?00:02:07 Jake's Path to Railway00:06:13 Railway's Six-Year Growth Story00:08:52 Rebuilding the Business After the Free Tier00:11:17 Agents as the Next Software Platform00:13:29 Railway's Infrastructure Philosophy00:15:42 Bare Metal, Cloud Economics, and the Compute Crunch00:17:22 Cloud Bursting and Five-Cloud Networking00:20:20 Data Center Debt and Infra Financing00:23:31 Data Centers in Space00:25:24 What Agents Need From Infrastructure00:28:24 CLIs, Canvas, and Agent-Native UX00:35:15 Central Station, Incidents, and Responsible Disclosure00:40:30 Safe Rollouts, SRE Agents, and Production Forks00:45:00 AI SRE, Specs, Code, and Tests00:48:24 Self-Replicating Infrastructure and the New Serverless00:53:18 Heroku, Temporal, and Workflow Engines01:04:07 Railpack, Nixpacks, and Lazy-Loaded Filesystems01:06:01 Coding Agents, Token Spend, and Roadmap Acceleration01:10:56 The Pull Request Is Dying01:12:28 Feature Flags and the Agent-Era SDLC01:16:15 Cattle, Pets, and Cloning Machines01:19:29 Solo Founder Lessons01:24:12 Focus, GPUs, and Building a New Cloud01:28:20 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by Swyx, editor of Latent Space.Swyx [00:00:10]: Hey, hey, hey. Today we're in the studio with Jake Cooper of Railway.Alessio [00:00:14]: Conductor of Railway.Swyx [00:00:15]: Conductor at Railway. Yeah.Alessio [00:00:16]: Choo-choo.Swyx [00:00:17]: Do you actually have that anywhere, like on your business card?Jake [00:00:20]: We call some of our volunteer moderators conductors. I don't have a business card. We're not that big yet. At some point I will. I got handed a nice business card from the Supermicro folks, and I was like, “Damn, this is pretty official.”Swyx [00:00:30]: Business cards are coming back.Jake [00:00:32]: They're cool. They're hip. The conductor thing is good. We're trying to figure out what we want to call each other internally. Some people think it's super cringe and say, “You don't need a name for people internally.” Some people want to call each other something. We still don't have a really good one.Jake [00:00:55]: We've got New Railcrews, Trainiacs. Nothing has stuck yet.Swyx [00:01:00]: I like Trainiac. Trainiac sounds good. Railwayians. For those who don't know, what is Railway? Let's give people a crisp definition up front.Jake [00:01:09]: Railway is the easiest way to ship anything. You go to the canvas, or you talk with Claude, and you say, “Deploy a Postgres instance, deploy my GitHub repository, run this code,” and you're off to the races.Swyx [00:01:22]: You've got a nice animation on the landing page.Jake [00:01:24]: Thank you. None of my work, by the way. They don't let me touch the design stuff anymore.Jake [00:01:25]: We want to make it trivially easy not just to deploy things, but to evolve applications over time. Most tooling right now stacks entropy on top of entropy: Docker, Kubernetes, Ansible scripts, and all these other things. If we can version all of your software and keep track of all the changes, then we can make it trivial to clone environments, fork into a parallel universe, get copies of production data, get copies of any services, make changes, validate them, and collapse them back in without reproducing everything across a staging environment.The Railway Origin Story: From Uber Systems to a New CloudSwyx [00:02:07]: I was looking at your background: Bloomberg, Uber. Nothing immediately stands out as, “This guy is going to found the next great platform as a service.” What prepared you for Railway?Jake [00:02:21]: It was curiosity to keep going deeper. I started out on front-end stuff, working on Wolfram Mathematica and porting it over. Then I briefly moved to Bloomberg, then toward Uber and distributed systems, taking the Jump Bikes systems and moving them to a distributed system built on top of Cadence, the pre-Temporal Temporal.Swyx [00:02:44]: Which, by the way, I'm happy to talk about, pros and cons.Jake [00:02:48]: Totally.Swyx [00:02:51]: But let's do the Railway story.Jake [00:02:52]: It has been a continual step of wanting an experience. Whether it's walking up to a bike, unlocking it, and having it work frictionlessly, or something else, the depth required to make that happen follows from the experience. A lot of the work I do, and a lot of the team does, is in service of that experience. We fundamentally don't care how deep we have to go. We will swim to the bottom of the swimming pool to get the experience.Jake [00:03:17]: I don't have a physics PhD. I did an EECS degree. It has always been about figuring out the next step: how do we get there? That's what led to starting Railway for that experience and then moving all the way to bare metal data centers. I was adding patches to the kernel this week to get the experience there because I can see how much better it can be.Swyx [00:03:49]: Other patches to the Linux kernel this week?Jake [00:03:51]: Yeah. Not upstream. Our fork.Swyx [00:03:52]: That's a flex. Railpack? No, this is different. This is the OS on top of Railpack?Jake [00:03:57]: No, this is an actual kernel patch. It's always literally: what do we have to do to get that experience? Then figure it out. Anything is figureoutable.Swyx [00:04:10]: Would you send the patch upstream, or does it not fit other use cases?Jake [00:04:13]: Maybe. We have to work out the experience internally. It has to do with the storage layer we're building for some of the agentic stuff. Maybe it'll be useful upstream, but it's deeply useful for us internally.Open Source, Forks, and Non-Deterministic VersioningSwyx [00:04:29]: You mentioned open source before. How do you think about starting from open source, and then coding agents letting you do a lot more from forks of it?Jake [00:04:38]: GitHub's original sin is that it's almost a series of broken pointers. You have this thing, then you clone it, and now you've lost the whole upstream. How do we make it trivial for people to modify really small pieces of it?Jake [00:04:51]: We think of Git in a discrete sense: I've either made a change and merged upstream, or I haven't. What would it look like if it were percentage-based, a little more non-deterministic, or a stream of changes that users traverse as a percentage rolled out in general and then rolled all the way up?Jake [00:05:13]: We have the open-source kickback program and let you deploy templates because we want to make it trivial for people to version these shards over time. It solves a large problem around authentication, authorization, and security. NPM has a way to define, “Don't take any new packages.” The ideal end state is that you roll out progressively to users with the minimum impact zone and continue rolling up. JPMorgan should probably be the last one on the patch line, for all our sakes, because our money and livelihoods are there.Jake [00:05:53]: It's okay if Johnny Vibe Coder gets a broken patch because there's so much entropy in the system that the rubber has to meet the road at some point. You have to test at varying levels.The Long Grind: First Users, Free Tier, and Making the Business WorkSwyx [00:06:13]: I wanted to pull up this glorious chart, which is your usage or number of daily signups?Jake [00:06:22]: Daily signups, I think.Swyx [00:06:24]: You started six years ago. It was a slow grind, and now you're on a rocket ship. You say, “Don't doubt your fight and don't quit.” Maybe pick out certain points that were key inflections for the company.Jake [00:06:40]: At the start, it's about getting your first 100 users, hell or high water. We had a website and a support link. The support link was the Discord channel. I had notifications on with two monitors: the monitor I was working on and the other monitor with Discord. If anybody came in, I was immediately like, “Hey, how's it going?” It was rare, so getting those first 100 users to come back was the start.Jake [00:07:14]: Then you build a consultancy factory because users want all these things. You have to go back to the board and ask, “What is the actual product offering I want to build on top of this?”Jake [00:07:28]: VCs want charts that always go up and to the right, but in reality you don't necessarily want charts that look like that. For us, there have been periods of expansion where we add features to test use cases, and periods of compaction where we ask, “If the experience we have is good, how do we make it significantly better?” Maybe we strip out features that don't fit our ICP anymore.Jake [00:07:57]: The boom from 2022 to 2023 came from the free tier. Everybody under the sun was using it.Swyx [00:08:09]: A lot of Reddit bots and Discord bots.Jake [00:08:12]: And crypto miners. When you build an open product on the internet where anybody can sign up, the internet is a horrible place with so many things. You go through periods of asking, “How do I reach as many people as possible?” Then, “How do I fit the exact use case for the people who really matter and are really excited about this specific thing?”Jake [00:08:39]: Then there was a two-year period of making the actual business work. During the free-tier era, we were losing about half a million dollars a month.Swyx [00:08:59]: On a $20 million bank account.Jake [00:09:02]: On a $20 million bank account with maybe $50,000 a month in revenue. That's a horrible business. I don't know how anybody invested. But you have to go through it and say, “We have an experience people love, but the business has to work.”Jake [00:09:17]: There are two schools of thought. You can run the horrible business all the way up with bad margins, or you can go back and make it work. We've always wanted a super lean team. We're 35 people right now. It's very small.Swyx [00:09:36]: Supporting three million already?Jake [00:09:38]: Yeah. We're adding 100,000 users a week right now, so it's growing fast. We don't want to add headcount for the sake of headcount or throw bodies at problems. We want to build systems. It's hard to build systems during expansion because you're adding things to the system because people are asking for them or things are breaking.Jake [00:10:00]: We had to cut off the free users for a little while, rebuild the business, and make sure it worked. We want to reach as many people as possible because software is important. It's become difficult to create things in the physical world, so it's important to make it easy for people to build in the virtual world and have access to creation. But there are legs to that journey.Jake [00:10:30]: You can see divots in the charts. If you follow between 2025 and 2026, it's either summer or winter. People go on holiday with family.Swyx [00:10:50]: It affects that much?Jake [00:10:51]: Yeah. It's kind of B2C and kind of B2B. People are shipping constantly, then they stop. Our activation curve now shows more people activating on weekdays because we have more business users, so it smooths out over time.Agents as the New Interface to DeploymentSwyx [00:11:17]: Was there a point where you started prioritizing AI development or agent development?Jake [00:11:24]: We've prioritized agentic as a top-of-funnel thing. Over the last six months, we've deeply prioritized agentic as a mechanism to build and deploy things because we believe the curve is so steep and that is how people will build and deploy software.Jake [00:11:42]: It almost fundamentally doesn't matter whether this is dot-com or not because we're all on the internet anyway. If agents are going to deploy a bunch of things and we hit an inference wall at some point, we'll fix those problems. The dominant species over the next 10 years is that we've moved from assembly to C to C++ to JavaScript to words. You're going to need to close that loop.Swyx [00:12:13]: When you say this is dot-com, did you mean buying the domain, or the general case?Jake [00:12:17]: I mean the dot-com era, when companies had a huge run-up because people understood the internet was important. Then they hit bottlenecks, fundamental laws of physics, math didn't work, and everybody came back down to earth. But it didn't matter because the internet became so impactful. If you operate on a long enough time horizon, you should build these things anyway because you can see where it's going.Jake [00:12:45]: That's where I think a lot of agent stuff is. You get to a point where you're running thousands of agents in parallel. What is the inference cost? What is the compute cost? How do you make that efficient? How do you coordinate all this? We have issues coordinating humans; we don't even have good tooling for that. Now we have to figure out how to get agents to coordinate, safely version changes, and know when to raise their hand for someone to intervene. Otherwise it becomes an interrupt factory.Railway's Infrastructure Thesis: Network, Compute, Storage, and MetalSwyx [00:13:19]: Let's go right into the technical side. What are the core infrastructure or architectural beliefs of Railway that allow you to do what you do?Jake [00:13:29]: The primitives matter a lot for us. We need network, compute, storage, and orchestration around it. You need control over a lot of those things. We've talked a lot about how we don't really use Kubernetes because we want higher-order control to place workloads in very specific places.Jake [00:13:48]: The reason is that you have to be very efficient with agents: memory reuse and all these other things, or you're going to massively blow up your cost structure. Being able to rack and stack your own servers and build your own metal unlocks performance and cost. Experiences where you're running 1,000 agents in parallel are not massively cost prohibitive.Jake [00:14:13]: Token use and compute use are blowing up. Over time, those things have to get a lot more efficient. You can get a lot of margin to make those experiences solid by building your own metal. That's all in service of offering a differentiated experience to as many people as humanly possible.Swyx [00:14:51]: You have a data center in Singapore.Jake [00:14:53]: Yeah. We have two in every other region now. In Singapore, we're adding a second one in Q3.Swyx [00:14:58]: What's it like? I've never built a data center. Do you go to Equinix and say, “I want some slots?”Jake [00:15:05]: Yeah. Equinix. You basically go and say, “I want power and I want a cage.” They say, “Great, here's what it's going to be.” You rent the cage for a period of time, fill it with racks and servers, and hook up internet to it. That's all the pieces.Swyx [00:15:36]: Then you handle everything else.Jake [00:15:37]: You handle everything else.Swyx [00:15:39]: What's the math versus clouds doing it for you?Jake [00:15:43]: If we rented in the cloud, our payback period when we go to metal is about three months.Swyx [00:15:50]: Which is crazy.Jake [00:15:51]: It's nuts. That's four years of depreciated hardware. You're going to see a lot of this compute crunch because hyperscalers are buying up a lot of stuff. We're working directly with OEMs, resellers, and people building these machines: Supermicro, Dell, and others.Jake [00:16:11]: Upstream, there's a bunch of supply pressure. When we raised our last round, between deploying capital for servers and now, the amount of money we've raised is less than the amount of money we have in the bank plus the value of the servers because the servers have appreciated as RAM has gone up. It's nuts how valuable hardware has become.Jake [00:16:50]: If you look at hyperscalers, they deployed around $80 billion of capital expenditures this year, and next year will be more. That's a massive infrastructure build-out. You look at that and think it's crazy that they're spending way more than the Manhattan Project. But if every person is going to run dozens or hundreds of agents in parallel, you have no conceptual idea how much compute is required to make that experience happen, even if you're deeply efficient and sharing resources. And that doesn't even count inference.Swyx [00:17:22]: How do you plan the build-out? The growth chart is so vertical. Are you usually at 100% utilization as soon as racks are live? How far ahead are you planning?Jake [00:17:33]: We still maintain cloud presence for bursting. We work with AWS, GCP, and a few other clouds. We can rent, and then the moment we get space or power, we compact those workloads off the cloud. We started on the clouds, then built a system to migrate to our own metal. There's nothing that says you can't continually do that again, and that's exactly what we do. We never want to be compute constrained.Jake [00:18:09]: At the start of the year, we actually became compute constrained because one upstream provider wasn't able to give us quota at the rate we needed, and the hardware was slower. I spent a weekend rebuilding our entire network overlay so we could straddle five clouds: Oracle, AWS, ourselves, GCP, and one other one. We can do more than that now.Jake [00:18:38]: We got into a spot where we were trying to pack instances tight because we couldn't get enough compute. That led to a few reliability issues, which are now past us. I made a tweet pointing out that it's becoming harder and harder to acquire compute at the rate these models need to acquire compute. We got bit by it.Swyx [00:19:15]: How do you think about pricing knowing you might not have your own metal available at all times? Are you pricing assuming you need extra margin if you end up going into the cloud?Jake [00:19:26]: Because we've built out our metal data centers, our margins on metal are around 70%. We can deeply subsidize the cloud business if we want to scale at a reasonable rate. We have a few levers: metal, which makes the margins; cloud burst; debt to buy servers; and venture capital. It's an interesting operational problem: how much cash do we have, how much should we raise, how quickly can we deploy it, and can we scale revenue as quickly as we scale compute?Jake [00:20:05]: If we continue making it trivially easy for people to build and deploy, then the faster we close that loop and the more operationally excellent we are with capital, the faster the business can scale. It's almost a straight linear deployment rate.Financing Infrastructure: Hardware Debt, VC, and Operational LeverageSwyx [00:20:20]: I think infra startups raising debt is a tool people don't utilize enough or know enough about. What can you tell us about that? Is it secured against your CPUs?Jake [00:20:32]: It's secured against our hardware.Swyx [00:20:37]: What rates do you get? Who are the lenders?Jake [00:20:39]: We pay prime plus a spread, and we can refinance any of the debt as rates go down. The terms are pretty good. The unfortunate thing is that Twitter has no nuance, so people say, “Venture debt bad.” But as with all things, there are specific tools and areas where you can be deliberate instead of using one tool as a hammer. Venture capital is not the hammer for everything. You have to explore and figure out what works.Swyx [00:21:12]: VC is usually the most expensive financing you can get.Jake [00:21:15]: Yeah. I also think people think about VC incorrectly from a capital-raising perspective. Most people think, “How do I raise as much money as possible from whoever is probably the best I can get at that time?” That's close to right, but what we've tried to do is figure out what unfair advantage we can buy with that equity.Jake [00:21:34]: It's the most expensive equity you're going to give away at that point in time, assuming the company keeps getting better. How do you use it to work with someone stellar who complements you? In the seed stage, I had never started a company. Ray Tonsing had good advice, and I could text him all the time. He was really fast. Awesome.Jake [00:22:01]: Then with John and Erica at Unusual, they said, “You roughly know what you're doing building a product. We'll mostly leave you alone and be available for advice.” Amazing. Then we got to Series A and the business was an operational tire fire because we didn't know how to scale a business. Work with Erica, and Jordan is over at Redpoint, so bonus.Jake [00:22:28]: Now we've raised from TQ and FPV as we're moving into enterprises. Every step of the way, we've asked: who can we partner with at this specific time to unlock the next section of the journey? I don't know enterprise sales. As an engineer, I can eyeball what features we might need, and we have wonderful people internally who can help. But you want boardroom dynamics where everyone is aligned and asking, “How do we win this?” instead of bickering about strategy.Data Centers in Space and the Physics of ComputeSwyx [00:23:31]: You had a tweet about data centers in space. Why no data centers in space?Jake [00:23:37]: It's not “no data centers in space.” My hot take is that I think it is solvable. I've just never seen anybody solve it.Swyx [00:23:49]: You said, “How are you going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum?” You're making a physics claim.Jake [00:23:55]: I haven't seen anybody prove how you're going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum. It doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means nobody has brought it up yet.Swyx [00:24:05]: Astrophage.Jake [00:24:06]: I don't know what that is.Swyx [00:24:07]: The Martian thing. Okay, you're very logical.Jake [00:24:09]: It could work. A lot of people are putting the cart before the horse. They say, “We're going to put data centers in space.” Okay, but how? “We have time to figure it out.” It's like in The Martian where they ask how they're going to intercept something and say, “We'll figure it out.”Swyx [00:24:36]: Making a bet on human invention is weird because you blind trust that it can be solved. But with physics, there are first-principles bounds you can put on it. Maybe not. Maybe you're asking to travel time or break a fundamental thermodynamic law.Jake [00:24:57]: I don't know how VCs do this either. How do you know what's not possible and a grift versus what's possible but sounds completely insane? “We're going to put data centers in space.” Coin flip as to which it is, and I guess you'll know in 10 years. That's one cycle.What Agents Need: Versioning, Observability, and 1,000x ScaleSwyx [00:25:23]: Moving back to agents. The branching, fast spin-up, and orchestration you do feels like pre-work that happened to be exactly what agents want. What do agents want differently than humans?Jake [00:25:37]: They want the ability to version things. It's not that different; it materializes slightly differently. Agents want a way to test changes incrementally. Engineers have feature flags. Is there a reason agents can't use feature flags? I don't think so.Jake [00:25:54]: They want version control. Can we use Git or not Git? That one is up in the air. I think something outside Git will emerge for how we version these things over time. They need observability. You need to query what happened, when it happened, which steps failed, traces, logs, metrics, and all the rest. They need network, compute, and storage. They need to write files, save files, iterate on files, and snapshot file systems.Jake [00:26:25]: A lot of what humans needed is in line with what agents need. Branching and forking are not different; we're just moving 1,000 times quicker. It can look like you need something massively different, but what you need is something massively better than what existed. You need orchestration massively better than Kubernetes. You need networking probably better than Envoy. It goes all the way down the stack.Jake [00:26:55]: If the workload profile doesn't change so much as it gets massively compressed because you need thousands of these things, what assumptions change? etcd is going to melt. You need to replace it with something. You can go all the way down the stack and say, “That part has to change, that part has to change, and that part has to change.”Jake [00:27:19]: The interesting thing about the super-exponential curve is that you have to build systems where you can rip out those parts at any time because a new bottleneck might emerge. You get good at parallel agents, and a different part of the system breaks. So it's similar to what humans needed, but at 1,000x scale.Jake [00:27:55]: How do you do code review in the age of agents?Swyx [00:28:00]: You throw more agents at it.Jake [00:28:01]: You don't. But then who reviews for CVEs and all these other things?Swyx [00:28:07]: More agents.Jake [00:28:08]: And that's how we hit the inference wall. You can continually throw agents at the problem, but I think there's a limit to the number of agents you can throw at a problem.CLI, Agent Handles, and Closing the LoopSwyx [00:28:24]: You already had a CLI before it was cool. How is the shape of what you're exposing changing, if at all?Jake [00:28:28]: CLIs have always been cool. The CLI changes because we think about how to give Claude, Codex, ChatGPT, or any model a handhold.Jake [00:28:50]: A CLI is a single command: deploy, get logs, and so on. Things that were prohibitively annoying to humans are not annoying to agents. They're nice. If I handed you a CLI with 40 arguments and 600 flags, you'd think, “I'm never going to use all of this.” But if you hand it to an agent, it says, “This is excellent. I have so many handles to work with.”Jake [00:29:24]: If you're going to expose things to agents that way, you want as many handles as possible where they can get information, query dynamic information, and close the loop quickly. Most problems right now are about how to close the loop as quickly as possible. Where does the agent get stuck, and how can you remove that?Jake [00:29:49]: Telemetry is important. If you can tell where the agent gets stuck from the CLI and say, “12% of people deviate from the happy path because of this, and now I add this argument and drive it down to 2%,” you massively increase the rate of loop closure.Jake [00:30:03]: That's how we think about not just the CLI, but every point in the dashboard. It's a user journey: I hear about Railway. I get something deployed. I get my first green build or aha moment. I see an endpoint, logs, whatever. Then I iterate. The iteration loop is indefinite. The user wants to deploy a new thing, a Postgres instance, change code, and keep iterating.Jake [00:30:36]: If you focus on the iteration loops and what's blocking them from closing quickly, one thing we say internally is: you never want to be waiting on compute anymore. You always want to be waiting on intelligence. If you're waiting on compute, there's a bottleneck that needs to be destroyed because eventually that bottleneck becomes so large that another workflow emerges to change it.Jake [00:31:04]: We've built a product where you push code, build it, and so on. But I fundamentally believe the push-pull loop is going away. We'll get to a point where you make a small change in production, that change is versioned across your infrastructure, you're working alongside copy-on-write versions of your database and infrastructure, and then you merge it in and it's instantaneously live. That's the holy grail of loops. The push-pull-rebuild thing is a point of friction that we're removing entirely.Canvas as Output: Dashboards, Context Anchors, and HyperstructuresSwyx [00:31:43]: It's incredibly fast. If anyone hasn't tried it, that fast feedback is great. My hot take is that Railway was famous for its canvas, which visualizes your infrastructure and lets you manipulate it visually. But that was for humans. For the next phase of growth, Railway CLI is more important than canvas.Jake [00:32:05]: The canvas is funny because it's a mechanism to show changes over time. You're right that previously we used it a lot as an input. Moving forward, its goal is more like an output. You would go to the canvas, make changes, see them, and watch your infrastructure evolve. Now agents have access to the CLI and can make those changes. So the canvas becomes an output: what information does the human need at this moment to make suitable decisions about control requests? Do I approve this or not?Jake [00:32:57]: It also has to be an anchor for your context, a port in the storm. Think of it like layers in a file system. You start with a project, then drill down into services, then into a function or code, because you want to represent the entire thing not just in your head, but in the canvas. Other people can share that representation, think on the same wavelength, and move quickly.Jake [00:33:33]: A lot of organizations get in trouble as they scale because all the context lives in someone's head. “How does this microservice work?” “I have no idea; go ask this person.” Then you have whole categories of products built around context discovery. A lot of that melts away if you have a solid hierarchy and can infinitely nest services, code, context, and everything else all the way down. That's what lets you build these structures over time.Jake [00:34:18]: It's also what lets us build what I've called hyperstructures: things that are way bigger. You look at the Golden Gate Bridge and ask, “How did we build that?” There's a meme that we lost the technology. To some extent, yes, because the coordination that built those things evolved and changed. We lost some of the art of building structure as we jammed everything into Slack.Swyx [00:34:52]: But you jam everything in Discord.Jake [00:34:53]: Same point. It doesn't matter. It's message passing and interrupts, message passing and interrupts.Swyx [00:35:00]: So you're arguing there should be something better and more structured than Slack?Jake [00:35:04]: Yeah. For sure. I think Slack is awful, and Discord is awful too.Central Station: Context Routing, Support, and Incident ClustersSwyx [00:35:09]: This is the equivalent of my mom test. What have you done that has your solution to this?Jake [00:35:15]: Internally, we've built a tool called Central Station that aggregates all the context from our users. Every piece of feedback, every customer support item, everything gets aggregated into clusters. If an incident is brewing, we can determine how many users are affected and break off a discussion based on that.Jake [00:35:40]: That is more helpful than long-running channels where you're trying to decide which channel to put something in. If you can dynamically aggregate information and dynamically route it to the right person based on context, it works better. We know internally that these four people are close to networking. If we see a networking thing, we can drill it down to those four people. If it's with this part, we can look at the commits. This is no longer a manual process internally.Jake [00:36:13]: If you go to station or help.railway.com, that's why we built it. We wanted to scale with a massive amount of leverage by aggregating feedback.Swyx [00:36:27]: This is built in-house?Jake [00:36:28]: Yep.Swyx [00:36:29]: I remember helping out on this one with Angelo in 2023. You scale a lot with a very small team.Jake [00:36:38]: Yeah. We're about 10 times bigger now.Swyx [00:36:40]: You have your full developer code here? Very cool.Jake [00:36:44]: If you go to railway.com/stats, we expose this as a pub-sub-able thing. It's all real-time metrics. There's a way to get it as JSON somewhere if you care.Jake [00:37:01]: We're big on trying to build everything in public and talk about what we're working on. We've had issues in the past, and we'll say, “Here's how we're fixing these things.” We've gotten compliments and flak for incident reports. We're always trying to make them better and talk with people.Incidents, Disclosure, and Progressive RolloutsSwyx [00:37:20]: You had a big one recently. I liked that it was scoped to 3,000. You presumably used Central Station. Talk through what happened and how you address it internally as a team.Jake [00:37:38]: Internally, this one really sucked. It had to do with an upstream provider that didn't do the behavior it said it documented, which is unfortunate given they wrote the RFC for how the behavior should work. We rolled those things out, and Central Station caught it initially when a couple users said caches weren't invalidating. We turned it off immediately.Jake [00:38:03]: When you roll out to a large user base of three million people, you get a lot of disparate behaviors. We tested in staging and had tests, but we hit an edge case. We've hardened those systems, and now we can make that better. But it was a tough one.Swyx [00:38:39]: I always wonder how private disclosure is supposed to work if people find an issue. Are they supposed to contact you first? When you run a platform, these things will happen. What channels should people pursue to quietly resolve it before it becomes a bigger incident?Jake [00:38:59]: There's responsible disclosure. We err on the side of over-disclosing and letting you know something is wrong versus having your provider gaslight you. We've erred on sharing those things more publicly, even if they impact a small subset of users. That's a decision we've made internally. We have four values. One is honor. The honorable thing is to notify people to the widest degree at which they may have been affected or there was an issue, and then confront it head-on: why did it happen, what can we do better?Swyx [00:39:45]: Not the whole user base. That's because of incremental rollouts and other things?Jake [00:39:50]: Yeah. Progressive rollouts.Swyx [00:39:54]: That should be the norm at all large platforms.Jake [00:39:58]: It should. A variety of companies do this. There's the quote that Meta runs 10,000 different versions of Meta. To our earlier point about agents, they need the same thing. They need shadow traffic and all these other things. We've built so much ceremony around production being sacred that we need to make it trivially easy to test different behaviors in a safe environment. Then you can make mistakes in a safe environment.Safe AI SRE: Customer Agents, Forked Environments, and Production ParityAlessio [00:40:30]: Do you see a world where these things get automatically caught, not necessarily by your agent, but by your customer's agent? The cache invalidation issue seems easy to check if you know to look for it.Jake [00:40:44]: It's hard because to determine it, we almost need to hook into your observability infrastructure. That's why we have the template loop on the platform: so you can roll things out progressively. You can roll out to Johnny Vibe Coder initially, or push a shard that someone consumes at their own leisure. Or you can roll it out over weeks: 0.1% of people, 1% of people, early adopters, then all the way up. That's the non-deterministic version control we talked about earlier.Jake [00:41:30]: I believe that's where most things should go, because most companies end up building staged rollout systems in-house. It's the same thing built again and again at every company. There's a massive opportunity to consolidate developer debt.Alessio [00:41:45]: You should have a free tier. Model providers give free tokens if you let them use the data. You could give free compute if someone is the number-one shard that goes out and lets you plug into their observability.Jake [00:41:55]: We do that. That's why we talked about the impact on 3,000 people. We start with lower-impact people. Larger companies on the platform are last to receive those rollouts so they have a version of the platform that's deeply stable.Alessio [00:42:16]: I have three services, so I'm sure I get the first rollout. You can nuke my thing at any time. There are all these SRE agent companies. Observability people also want agents that fix upstream problems. You have your own agent in the canvas now. How do you see that playing out?Jake [00:42:39]: It's the stacking entropy problem. If you don't have primitives to make iteration in production safe, it becomes difficult. If you're an observability provider saying, “Here's the fix to this error,” assume 80% are good and make sense. But in the last 20% long tail of complex issues, if you let somebody stamp it, you create an opportunity for an incident.Jake [00:43:08]: That's why forked environments are important. People have staging, but it always drifts from production. You need primitives, workflows, and experience built first-party on the platform so you can fork any service at any point in time.Jake [00:43:33]: I think of the canvas as a sheet of transparency paper. The agent is a little guy you push up into the canvas. It should say, “I need to copy that service and that service so I can test these two things.” It gets a read-only copy of production. Anything that's PII gets marked as a transform when we clone the database, create a copy-on-write version, or read from it. Then the agent makes changes and asks, “Does this actually work?” as close to production as possible.Jake [00:44:22]: That's how close you have to be, or you get massive drift. The system becomes unstable. You see this with massive systems built on Docker for local, Kubernetes for production, and a specific thing for something else. That complexity slows developers and becomes unstable at scale, making it hard to iterate. We want to compress that way down and say, “As close to prod as possible is where we want to be.”From AISRE Skeptic to Agent BelieverSwyx [00:45:00]: I was texting Erica for questions, and she says you were originally not a believer in AISRE. Have you come around on it?Jake [00:45:10]: I flipped, but I'm still not a believer in AISRE if you don't have the primitives to make it safe. If you unleash AISRE on production infrastructure without safe primitives for copying volumes and making sure things are fine, it's going to nuke your production database. It's not a matter of if, but when. I'm a big believer in making those loops safe.Jake [00:45:33]: I was a deep AI skeptic until 2023. In 2024, I thought, “Maybe I can roughly make this thing do it.” In 2025, I thought, “Now I can hold this.” Over winter break, everybody came back saying, “It's almost impossible to hold this.”Swyx [00:46:01]: Did you see this on the Claude docs? CloudBot? OpenCloud?Jake [00:46:06]: It's gotten to a point where it's harder to hold it wrong than to hold it right. There's a scene in Avengers where Vision picks up Thor's hammer and says it's terribly well-balanced. It self-balances and works well. I'm a deep believer at this point that this will be the dominant species: assembly, C, C++, JavaScript, words.Swyx [00:46:35]: It feels like a big jump.Jake [00:46:37]: It is. But it's not like you abandon CPU-based discrete logic and move straight to fuzzy logic. You need both. Your skills should call code or applications or some static structure. You can use skills to distill what the procedure should be or how the code should act.Jake [00:47:02]: I'm coming to a thesis: you need three points. You need a clear spec defining the system, the code, and the tests. When you say it out loud, if you've been in engineering long enough, you're like, “Of course. That's an RFC, tests, and code.” But they all matter. Having them together lets them reinforce each other: the spec and tests match, but the code doesn't, so reconcile it. Or the tests and code match but the spec doesn't, so reconcile that. That's the iteration loop.Jake [00:47:41]: That's why you're seeing people talk about software factories, docs, and reconciliation. Some of that is architectural astronomy if you don't implement it, but that loop is where most things will end up.Swyx [00:48:07]: For listeners, we've been talking about this on the pod for three years: the holy trinity of specs and tests. Itamar Friedman from Qodo is the reference if people want to look it up.Self-Modifying Infrastructure and the End of Push-Pull-RebuildSwyx [00:48:18]: One thing I want to mention on the OpenCloud idea is self-modification. I don't know how Railway would support it, but I have my OpenClaw, and I just tell it it has the Railway CLI and can do whatever. In theory, whatever capabilities or new infra it needs, it can call the Railway CLI, provision it, and add it to itself. The agent can modify its own infra.Jake [00:48:45]: It's nuts. I have a loop set up where you put the Railway CLI on top of something that runs on Railway. You're authenticated as whatever the current box is, and you can make any changes to it. Then you call Railway deploy, and it deploys itself.Jake [00:49:04]: It's like: “I need to spin up this instance of this environment. I already exist in this environment. Excellent, I have access to a Postgres instance now.” That's where we want to go with agentic, self-replicating infrastructure. That's your loop: iterate in production. You continue making changes. If it works, merge it upstream. If it doesn't, throw it away.Jake [00:49:37]: How do you make throwaway copies trivial to spin up and super cheap? The era of “I have an AWS instance with four vCPU and 16 gigs of RAM” is going to get destroyed. If you do that for agents, you need a thousand of those machines. It's prohibitively expensive compared with what we've spent a ton of time figuring out: the atomic unit of deploy, whether you call it isolates, sandboxes, or something else. Only pay for what you use, spin up instantaneously, and close the loop as quickly as possible.Jake [00:50:15]: If the system can self-replicate safely and say, “This is my environment, I'm making these changes,” it can come back with, “Does this look good? This is a new state of infrastructure given this prompt. I think I've solved it.” Then you go back and say, “Actually, it looks different.” It does the loop again. Then you say, “Cool. Apply.”Swyx [00:50:38]: That's retroactively obvious, which is the most useful kind. Any other comments on agent deployment on Railway?Jake [00:50:51]: It's getting better every day. I'm on X or Twitter. You can always yell at me about the parts not working as well as they should, because plenty of things should work way better.The New Serverless: Stateful, Long-Running, Pay-for-What-You-Use LinuxSwyx [00:51:04]: At this stage, when people want massively or embarrassingly parallel compute, they usually talk serverless. I feel like there's a new serverless compared to the previous five years of serverless. You're in that new bucket. Do you have comparisons or philosophical differences you want to call out?Jake [00:51:31]: It's somewhere in between. It's the ability to run stateful, long-running workflows or executions.Swyx [00:51:42]: Vercel has Fluid Compute, Cloudflare has some container thing, Google has App Runner and others.Jake [00:51:55]: That's where everything is roughly going, and it's why we've been working on this for six years. We believe users need access to a computer: a box that speaks Linux. They need to deploy what they want. Other systems change the surface area of what you can build. For us, users need a computer and need to deploy anything they truly want. That's why we've focused on the primitives: network, compute, storage. If we give you those and expose them so you can run things indefinitely, that's where we believe it's going.Jake [00:52:43]: Twitter has no nuance, so everyone says “servers” or “serverless.” It's always somewhere in the middle: I want to run it for a long time, but I don't want to provision the resource statically or pay for things I'm not using. That's been our thesis from day one: pay only for what you use, run it indefinitely, and it is full Linux.Swyx [00:53:12]: That's why I like the naming of Fluid. It's fluid. Flexible.Heroku, Focus, and Carrying the Torch Without Becoming the PastSwyx [00:53:18]: Another milestone is the Heroku official deprecation. You're one of the presumptive new Herokus. “New Heroku” has been a category for as long as I've been in developer tooling. It's finally happening. What was that like? Any behind-the-scenes of, “This is the moment”?Jake [00:53:42]: You have people where you're like, “You were running stuff on here? You, as this company?” It's crazy that names you would know are running on it and now coming to us saying, “We want to move a lot of this off.”Swyx [00:54:00]: Any behind-the-scenes on why Salesforce let Heroku stagnate?Jake [00:54:05]: I can only guess. It's hard when it's not your business. Salesforce's business is to build a great CRM. That's their focus. Then you acquire a compute business as an offshoot. A lot of early Meta people talk about focus. Boz has a write-up about how in the early days of Meta they had no money, so they were forced to focus. Then they turned on the money tree and had no reason not to split their focus.Jake [00:54:52]: But that dilutes your product. You get offshoots where you ask, “Is this the focus of the business?” If it's not core, it languishes. A lot of companies get in trouble when they split focus because they're fighting a multi-front war, not just externally but internally for alignment. Where are we going? What are we doing? What is our purpose?Jake [00:55:24]: If you're Salesforce-built and mission-driven, you want to work on Salesforce. Heroku is off to the side. It's not core to the business. Getting resources, budget, focus, and alignment internally becomes hard. It was a matter of time.Swyx [00:56:06]: Kudos for them to call it out instead of leaving it unknown.Jake [00:56:12]: Their release was a little odd. They called it out, but they didn't say they were shutting it down. Behind the scenes, I think they issued messages to people saying they should close accounts and that they were going to deprecate and remove things over time.Jake [00:56:30]: It's crazy because some of my first deployment experiences were on Heroku. You start with dragging things into an FTP server, then you try to get a deploy working, and then it's Heroku. It was the on-ramp for us. But the wheel turns. New things emerge. We're happy to carry the torch for a lot of that. But we don't want to be the new Heroku. We want to be the way people build and deploy software, and ultimately the way people monetize software over time.Swyx [00:57:19]: It's still a big crown to be the new Heroku. There are 50 companies that fought for that.Jake [00:57:23]: Everybody is holding some portion of it. We're happy to support people and companies. The platform works differently. The game loop is similar, but we've been dogmatic about where these things are going: primitives, agents, fan-out. Some things fit; some workflows need to change. We have an approximation of Heroku pipelines with the environment system. It's exciting. We've got a ton of people we can support, and it's growing a lot.Temporal, Workflow Engines, and State MachinesSwyx [00:58:12]: I have one more technical question about Temporal. I've sold my shares. You're a power user and one of our earliest customers. I met you through Temporal. You built on Temporal. You have complaints. This may be the most neutral and informed conversation anyone will hear about Temporal without someone working at the company.Jake [00:58:39]: That's fair. I've used Temporal for almost 10 years because of Cadence at Uber.Swyx [00:58:52]: Give people a sense of what Cadence was at Uber.Jake [00:58:57]: Cadence was the precursor to Temporal. It powers trip actions, rides, when you rent a Jump bike or scooter or car. You're running workflows for a period of time and saying, “This ride will run indefinitely until it finishes.” You attach information: you paused in this zone, so add this charge to the bill. When you end the trip, the workflow is done. That experience was powered by Cadence at the time.Swyx [00:59:34]: I used to say it's like programming the entire user journey top-down as one function.Jake [00:59:39]: It's a powerful idea and important. It's also important for the next phase of the agentic journey. You want an agent to do a specific task, be complete or incomplete on that task, and move on to the next thing. You need a way to manage workflows dynamically.Jake [00:59:59]: Temporal was always great in theory, and great when you got it working the way you wanted in production. But it required you to model the entire journey in your head. If you didn't, you could cause issues where replaying the state of the workflow causes non-determinism.Swyx [01:00:25]: Because it works on deterministic workflow history.Jake [01:00:28]: Exactly. I describe it as a jet engine. If you know how to operate it and run it, it's great. But you can't hand it to people trying to build complicated things if they don't have the whole state in their head.Jake [01:00:48]: We run our whole deployment pipeline on top of it. That's a reasonably complicated workflow: pre-commit hooks, signaling, queuing, and all the rest. We ran into the same thing at Uber. As you express a large workflow, it gets more complicated, with more states in the state machine that you have to map back to the workflow.Swyx [01:01:15]: It's a lot of ifs.Jake [01:01:16]: Exactly. At Uber, we built a system for doing the state machine and testing it. We've started to build some of those things here because it's grown heavily. It's not quite love-hate. When it works well, it works super well. But if someone who doesn't have full context puts something into the system that invalidates state or causes non-determinism, or spins off a ton of activities, you have to keep track of underlying SRE knobs like activity slots. Those should scale with memory, vCPU, and so on. It becomes a bear to scale.Swyx [01:02:10]: You need a capable sysadmin running things behind the scenes. If you moved off, what would you do?Jake [01:02:19]: We'd build our own workflow engine. We have a few internally that we've worked on.Swyx [01:02:27]: This is one of those classes of things you typically wouldn't vibe code, but I'm wondering if you can.Jake [01:02:33]: I still don't think you should vibe code it. You still want to run decent tests to make sure it works.Swyx [01:02:39]: Timo didn't invent that from scratch either. There are libraries you can run. On top of that, it's just a state machine that you have to map out. Ultimately, you define the instructions you want and run them through a state machine.Jake [01:03:00]: It's very doable. Workflow stuff is interesting. Restate is doing neat stuff here.Swyx [01:03:10]: You're tied into JavaScript. Are you a JavaScript maxi?Jake [01:03:13]: Internally, we have TypeScript, Rust, and Go. We don't add more languages. Actually, we have a little C because we write BPF code and hooks. But those are the languages.Swyx [01:03:28]: Is this for sidecars?Jake [01:03:32]: No. It's for the networking stack, volumes, and things like that. We use TypeScript a lot because it powers the dashboard, but we're moving a lot of workflow stuff off the dashboard stack and into the infrastructure stack.Railpack, Nixpacks, and Content-Addressable FilesystemsSwyx [01:04:00]: Cool. Any other technical infrastructure stuff? Railpacks?Jake [01:04:07]: We built an engine for determining dependencies based on source code. It's called Railpack. We built the first version, Nixpacks, on top of Nix, and then we moved.Swyx [01:04:17]: People have been trying to get me to adopt Nix and NixOS for four years. Is it ever going to be a thing?Jake [01:04:23]: I don't know. We're excited about it, but it has pain points. Think of it as a stack of versioned binaries at specific slices in time. If you want version X and version Y, you bloat the package space, which blows up image size and makes real-world workloads difficult.Swyx [01:04:53]: But you content-address it and cache it. In theory, there are optimizations.Jake [01:05:00]: In theory, yes. But with a large enough user base and disparate enough machines, you run into a problem Meta described in the XFAAS paper, their internal serverless system. It becomes difficult at scale unless you break out specific runtimes.Jake [01:05:24]: We didn't want to do that because we wanted to truly allow you to deploy anything. That was our initial thing with Nix. But we've moved toward interesting work around content-addressable file systems that can lazy-load anything from any point and page it into memory.Swyx [01:05:48]: Amazing.Jake [01:05:49]: The future is very bright. It's crazy, and it's going to be nuts.Coding Agent Spend, Roadmaps, and Token ROISwyx [01:05:54]: Founder journey stuff?Alessio [01:05:56]: Your cloud usage: you tweeted you're going to spend $300K this month?Jake [01:06:01]: I think we got to $200K.Alessio [01:06:02]: Coding agents?Jake [01:06:03]: Yeah.Swyx [01:06:04]: Across the company?Alessio [01:06:05]: You only have 35 people, so I'm sure they're not all spending $10K a month. What's the distribution?Jake [01:06:10]: I think I'm at about $25K. We have power users all the way down. We came back from winter break, and I basically said, “If you're writing code by hand, you're doing this wrong.” The tools are good enough now that you can move extremely quickly. There are issues and pain points, but you should be reviewing the code you are writing instead of writing it by hand.Jake [01:06:40]: Architectural patterns matter more now than ever, but you shouldn't spend your time generating code you would write. If you know how to write it, ask the agent to write it and reconcile it until it looks like you would have written it yourself.Jake [01:06:58]: People misconstrue my propensity to push people toward agents as connected to our growth and some reliability bumps. They're not necessarily related. The tools are good enough to move extremely quickly and build things way larger than you could before.Jake [01:07:19]: To the earlier point about cooling data centers in space: I don't know. But with software, you can ask, “How would I build block storage from scratch? How would I do these things?” I have ideas because I have history and have read papers. Let me work them out and build massive test benches with thousands of tests, because those are now free to author. If you're not using AI systems to speed-run your roadmap and reconcile your existing system onto the future, you're missing a large point of what's happening.Alessio [01:08:12]: What's the path to spending $3 million a month? Is it bound by ideas and things customers can absorb?Jake [01:08:19]: For most companies, it's bound by deployment at this point. That's why we've seen a massive boom in users and companies, from Fortune 50s down, asking how to get developers to move faster. You'll probably hit your CFO before any technical limits because they'll look at the eye-watering amount of money spent on tokens. Inference costs have to come down, but we're inference constrained now. There will be price discovery around what makes sense for an org to adopt.Jake [01:09:06]: I think you'll end up with the F1 driver concept. If someone is really adept at these things, it makes sense to put them in a $3 million car. If they're not, it probably doesn't make sense. You'll take a few people and say, “You can drive the F1 car. We need to go in this direction. Figure out if it works and prototype it.”Jake [01:09:33]: We've done some of that and vastly accelerated our roadmap. We thought we'd ship something in a few years; now we can probably ship it in a few months because we validated it and don't have to build it incrementally. We can skip steps and move toward our vision.Alessio [01:09:58]: A lot of people are realizing the roadmap doesn't always have a business impact, so they say tokens are too expensive. But if your roadmap were built to make more money by the time you built it, you'd have token pricing for it, the same way you do with sales. You'd spend a billion dollars on sales if you knew you would get $2 billion of revenue.Jake [01:10:19]: Exactly. A naive way to measure this is the percentage of tokens that end up in production. If you can measure impact because those tokens end up in production, that's awesome. But the burden of proof will rise. Internally, we have a growing number of pull requests that haven't merged. The question becomes: how do you get this into production? It's about how quickly you can build and deploy software, which is exciting because that's our whole thing.The SDLC Shift: Prompt Requests, Feature Flags, and Safe RolloutsSwyx [01:10:56]: The SDLC is changing. One thesis is that the pull request is dying. It's going to be the prompt request. Beyond that, code review is also kind of dying if you have all the other systems in place. What else is changing about the SDLC?Jake [01:11:19]: The AISRE and the tools to make it happen. AISRE is pie-in-the-sky aspirational. What does it take to get an AISRE? What tools do you need to build?Swyx [01:11:32]: You should expose your tooling to customers at some point. The Central Station command center.Jake [01:11:39]: We have it for template maintainers. Template maintainers can deploy and maintain templates, and they get feedback. We're going to expose those things incrementally.Swyx [01:11:51]: Clustering around incidents. Everyone has a version of that, but I don't think anyone has solved it.Jake [01:11:56]: I won't say we've solved it internally, but it's gotten so good that we can see incidents forming pretty quickly. At some point, those will be things either someone else builds or we build. We've always built things purpose-built for us. If it makes sense to make it useful for users, monetize it, or turn that loop into a profit center instead of a cost center, we want to do that.Jake [01:12:28]: Pull request is definitely dying.Swyx [01:12:29]: Do you do first-party feature flagging and incremental rollout stuff?Jake [01:12:34]: We have a feature-flagging engine we built internally and will eventually roll out.Swyx [01:12:38]: I don't see it as a user. How come you didn't give us what you have?Jake [01:12:43]: We have to beta test it. We care a lot about the quality of the things. There's plenty we've used internally that doesn't make it all the way through the journey because it fails. It works for one service but not multiple services. We'd have to build it for multiple services and know that if we released it, we'd rebuild it again and again. Some things are worth that, but many inform the roadmap.Jake [01:13:18]: We don't want to dilute the experience by saying, “This works, but only for this service,” unless it's a core initiative. Over the next few months, we'll roll out things that work for a single service, then multiple services, then multiple services across the environment. You have to be deliberate. Otherwise you create broken disparate experiences and support load because people ask how to use the feature.Jake [01:13:52]: It's the earlier expansion and compaction pattern. You expand the company to get features, then compact and smooth them out so the experience is stellar. You told me in the hallway, “It's gotten so much better.” Internally we're saying, “This part really sucks. We need to make it significantly better.”Swyx [01:14:11]: I can attest to that over the last three years watching you build Railway. For listeners, feature flagging is a huge part of Uber culture. So much so that they have too many feature flags and another thing to remove feature flags. Facebook has Gatekeeper. Agents are going to need this. It's fundamental to incremental rollouts. OpenAI acquired Statsig. GPT-5 is routing and flagging through different models.Jake [01:14:56]: It's super important. If the software development lifecycle is going to change because we're doing things 1,000 times faster and 1,000 times more concurrently, what becomes important at scale?Jake [01:15:16]: Before I started Railway, I built a feature-flagging product and tried to sell it. It was an easier version of LaunchDarkly. I ran into a problem: anyone small enough to adopt your technology doesn't care about feature flags, and anyone large enough to need feature flags needs so much scale that you have to build out all the infrastructure. I scrapped it.Jake [01:15:42]: But what is old is new again. Companies are trying to move quickly, but you can't YOLO a vibe-coded thing straight into production. You need to say, “Here's my blast radius, my impact, and I want to shadow it for these users.” Feature flags. You're going to need the tools larger companies built to maintain their structures. Everything gets compressed by 1,000x so everybody can build those structures quickly.Jake [01:16:07]: That's exactly where we are: compressing the software development lifecycle, then expanding it and adding more new things.Cattle, Pets, and Clonable InfrastructureSwyx [01:16:15]: Another term that comes to mind for newer developers is “cattle, not pets.” People treat production like a pet. It has a name. You baby it and keep it alive. With cattle, you can mass farm, roll out, portion parts out, and kill them.Jake [01:16:37]: I think that might change. You can move toward having pets as long as you have a cloning machine for your pets.Swyx [01:16:52]: Yeah.Jake [01:16:52]: If you can snapshot every single thing at every frame, it doesn't matter if something gets obliterated because you have a snapshot of it. The things we've built right now are designed to block changes from the hermetically sealed DevOps line. You have to write a Dockerfile because you nee

The user-agent string in the HTTP header has been there since the 1990s. The web was built with software navigating it on someone's behalf. For thirty years that someone was a human. That changes now. Matt Biilmann, CEO and co-founder of Netlify, was one of the first to take seriously what it means when the "user" navigating the web is an AI agent. He published the foundational essay on Agent Experience in January 2025, pivoted his entire company around it, and recently shipped netlify.ai as a separate entry point built for agents. We cover the four pillars of Agent Experience, why every product already has an agent experience whether you designed one or not, content negotiation as a way to tell agents to go to a different URL than humans, why SaaS is in real trouble (with a story from inside Netlify about ripping out vendor contracts), how the data-structure assumption that has defined software for fifty years is breaking, and the one thing every website owner should start doing this week.About the GuestMatt Biilmann is the CEO and co-founder of Netlify, the platform that started the Jamstack movement and is leading the shift from developer experience to agent experience. His January 2025 essay on Agent Experience is the foundational text for the discipline. Chapters00:00 Every product has an agent experience (cold open)00:35 The architectural question01:46 Welcome Matt to No Hacks02:15 When AX became a design constraint, not a concept06:44 The January 28 2025 essay and who got it first10:22 Why netlify.ai was built as a separate website12:44 Content negotiation: telling agents to go to a different URL13:54 Qualitative data and the Axis eval framework17:12 Does AX apply to e-commerce and content websites?20:59 The cumulative media argument (TV did not kill radio)25:00 User-agent in HTTP and Al Gore-era agent commerce laws26:33 SaaS business model is dead: build-vs-buy is shifting30:44 The end of structured content as a hard constraint40:25 One thing every website owner should do now43:08 Where to find Matt onlineKey TakeawaysEvery website already has an agent experience. Agent Experience is how AI agents currently interact with your product, whether through computer use, fetching, or working around the barriers you put up. It is not a feature you add. The only question is whether the experience is good or bad.The four pillars: Access, Context, Tools, Orchestration. Matt's framework for thinking about AX systematically. Access answers whether agents can reach your product at all. Context is the prompt-engineering equivalent for agents. Tools are the concrete capabilities you expose. Orchestration covers how agents string those tools together inside your product.Build a separate entry point for agents. netlify.ai is purpose-built for agents while netlify.com remains the human entry point. Content negotiation tells agents to go to one URL, humans see the other. The blessed-path approach beats trying to make one URL serve both.SaaS economics are shifting structurally. The build-vs-buy floor is dropping fast as AI lowers the cost of software. Traditional 90%-margin seat-based SaaS is in real trouble. Dev tool companies have upside because companies need more tools. Everyone else is going to be ripping out vendor contracts and building internally.The data-structure paradigm is breaking. Software engineering has operated on the Linus Torvalds principle that data structures matter more than code. LLMs are not built around data structures. Building software around LLMs means rethinking the assumption that drove fifty years of computer science.Notable Quotes"Every product has an agent experience because all of these agents, whether through computer use or through fetching your website or through working around the barriers you put up from them, have some agent experience right now. It is just a question of is it good or bad.""There is a reason it is called a user agent in the header. It was forward-looking.""We have been ripping out SaaS contracts. Sometimes it is heartbreaking. The rep calls to right-size the contract and the customer reacts with 'let me see if I can build it with an agent.' Then they call back and cancel instead.""The context and the flows and your creativity are probably more important than both the data structures and the code."What To Do NextOpen your website in Claude Code or ChatGPT and ask the agent to complete a real task. Watch where it stalls. That is your AX baseline.Check your traffic logs for AI assistant visitors (ChatGPT-User, Claude-Web, PerplexityBot, GPTBot). The number is rising whether you measure it or not. Cloudflare reports AI assistants are now 5.5% of all internet traffic, up from 3.9% six months ago.Read Matt's January 28 2025 essay on Agent Experience at biilmann.blog as the starting point. Then read the one-year retrospective for the four pillars framework.If you operate a developer tool or any product with a clear automation surface, start a simple eval scenario: take a fresh agent, give it a task, score whether it succeeds. Axis from Netlify will give a proper framework when it ships open source.Resources Mentionednetlify.ai (the agent-built entry point Matt and team shipped recently)netlify.com (the human entry point)Matt's original Agent Experience essay, January 28 2025: biilmann.blogMatt's "AI in the CLI: The Humanoid Robot of the Web" (August 2025)Claude Code (the agent that flipped broad accessibility for CLI coding agents)Connect with Matt BiilmannBlog: biilmann.blogLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mathias-biilmann-christensen-a5a3805Twitter/X: @biilmann (x.com/biilmann)Bluesky: bsky.app/profile/did:plc:grjr4il5dredrsuj7nosb4pqMastodon: mastodon.social/@biilmannNetlify: netlify.com and netlify.aiConnect with No HacksWebsite: nohacks.coSubscribe to the newsletter: nohacks.co/subscribeMachine-First Architecture: machinefirstarchitecture.comNo Hacks is a podcast about web performance, technical SEO, and the agentic web. Hosted by Slobodan "Sani" Manic.

In this episode, Maggie Appleton from GitHub Next explains why "single player" AI tools are creating a team alignment crisis. We discuss the shift from solo CLI instances to multiplayer agentic environments, the launch of ACE (Agentic Collaboration Environment), and why the future of software isn't just about writing code faster—it's about using proactive agents to bridge the gap between developers, researchers, and the social fabric of a company.This was recorded at AI Engineer Europe.Links:Maggie Appleton https://maggieappleton.com/GitHub Next https://githubnext.com/

Musk v. Altman went to closing arguments, with Musk's lawyer hammering Altman's credibility while OpenAI says Musk has no evidence. Google tests cutting free Gmail storage to 5GB, Meta opens Ray-Ban Display to developers, OpenAI brings Codex to mobile, and xAI launches Grok Build. ⁠Musk v. Altman: in closing arguments, Musk's attorney doubled down on claims of Altman's untrustworthiness, while OpenAI's lawyer said Musk has no evidence⁠ (AP) ⁠Google confirms a new storage policy test, after some users reported that new Gmail accounts get 5GB, not 15GB, of free storage if they don't add a phone number⁠ (Android Authority) ⁠Meta rolls out new features for its Ray-Ban Display glasses, including neural handwriting support for all users, and opens the device to third-party developers⁠ (The Verge) ⁠OpenAI adds remote access to Codex in the ChatGPT mobile app, letting users control Codex sessions running on a computer directly via iOS, iPadOS, and Android⁠ (9to5Mac) ⁠xAI launches Grok Build, an agent and CLI for coding, building apps, and automating workflows, in early beta, available first for SuperGrok Heavy subscribers⁠ (Bloomberg) ⁠OpenEvidence, an AI clinical tool, is now used by ~65% of US doctors across 27M clinical encounters per month, becoming an AI-era equivalent of consulting a colleague⁠ (NBC News) ⁠Janitor AI, a romantic fantasy roleplay chatbot site run by three men, claims 2.5M DAUs and 15M total users, with 70–80% identifying as women⁠ (Forbes) Longreads ⁠OpenEvidence, an AI clinical tool, is now used by ~65% of US doctors across 27M clinical encounters per month, becoming an AI-era equivalent of consulting a colleague⁠ (NBC News) ⁠Janitor AI, a romantic fantasy roleplay chatbot site run by three men, claims 2.5M DAUs and 15M total users, with 70–80% identifying as women⁠ (Forbes) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Switching from Proxmox to Sylve, FreeBSD Quarterly report, FreeBSD's laptop program, Migrating ZFS, Haiku and OpenSSL news, and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines I Switched from Proxmox to Its FreeBSD Counterpart on My Home Server – Here is How it Went FreeBSD Quarterly Report The FreeBSD Foundation's Laptop Support Project News Roundup Migrating ZFS filesystems from one zpool to another – same host Haiku Isn't Just For X86 Anymore, Boots On ARM In QEMU OpneSSL 4.0 Other schedulers? Illumos? Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

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Developers are increasingly working inside AI-powered coding tools like Claude Code, Cursor, and Codex.The workflow is changing.Instead of constantly switching between dashboards, logs, terminals, and configuration files, developers are starting to collaborate directly with coding agents using natural language.We think CI/CD should evolve alongside that shift.Today, we're introducing Semaphore for AI Agents — a new open-source CLI and agentic interface designed to make Semaphore fully accessible from AI coding agents.This is the first step toward what we call the AI-native Semaphore experience.What is Semaphore for AI Agents?Semaphore for AI Agents gives coding assistants a structured way to interact with Semaphore.Instead of manually navigating CI/CD systems, developers can simply ask:* “Why is my CI failing?”* “What tests are flaky?”* “Show me the critical path in this pipeline.”* “Summarize the health of this project.”And their coding agent can retrieve, analyze, and act on that information directly through Semaphore.The first release includes:* Pipeline diagnostics* Flaky test detection* Critical path analysis* Organization-wide CI/CD insights* MCP support* Claude Code integrations* Remote execution workflows on Semaphore infrastructureWe also demonstrate how developers can provision ephemeral machines for agent-driven workflows, remote testing, and scalable execution.Built for Agentic WorkflowsSemaphore for AI Agents was designed specifically for AI-native development workflows.The project ships with:* Agent-oriented commands* Structured JSON outputs* Claude Code skills* Generic agent skills* A local MCP serverThis allows coding assistants to interact directly with Semaphore while developers stay inside their coding environment.Fully Open SourceSemaphore for AI Agents is fully open source.Developers can inspect how it works, extend workflows, contribute new commands, and build their own automations.We believe AI-powered developer tooling should remain transparent, inspectable, and developer-controlled.This Is Just the BeginningSemaphore for AI Agents is the foundation for a broader direction we're building toward at Semaphore:* Developers define intent* Agents handle repetitive execution* Semaphore provides the infrastructure and orchestration layerOver the coming weeks, we'll continue shipping new workflows, MCP capabilities, testing automation, and scalable agent execution features.Watch the DemoWe recorded a full walkthrough showing:* CI/CD debugging workflows* MCP integrations* Claude Code usage* Organization-wide insights* Remote execution on Semaphore infrastructure→ [Read the full blog post]Thanks for following along.Till the next product update.Pete Miloravachttps://semaphore.io This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit semaphoreio.substack.com

Java 26 est là, GraalVM cartonne chez Trivago (43 à 12 réplicas !), OpenJDK interdit le code généré par LLM, Spring et Quarkus enchaînent les releases. Côté IA : ADK 1.0, A2A, Lyria 3 chante (mal ?), Yann LeCun lance Ami Labs et ses World Models. Mythos d'Anthropic fait trembler la sécu, Claude Code a leaké son source, et les git worktrees envahissent vos terminaux. Bonus : la mort annoncée de l'IDE, vagues de licenciement chez Oracle et Block, et nos voix toutes clonées. Bon week-ends de mai ! Enregistré le 7 mai 2026 Téléchargement de l'épisode LesCastCodeurs-Episode-340.mp3 ou en vidéo sur YouTube. News Langages Retour d'expérience d'une migration vers graalVM chez Trivago https://medium.com/graalvm/inside-trivagos-graalvm-migration-native-image-for-graphql-at-scale-912bca9df841 La passerelle GraphQL de Trivago (point d'entrée de tout le trafic vers 48 microservices) souffrait de pics de timeout au démarrage JVM Résultats spectaculaires après migration vers GraalVM Native Image : réduction des réplicas de 43 à 12, CPU de 15 à 5 cœurs, images Docker plus légères Obstacles techniques : incompatibilité Log4j → migration vers Logback, remplacement de Mockk par Testcontainers, compilation CI/CD très gourmande Netflix DGS et d'autres librairies manquaient de support GraalVM → l'équipe a contribué des correctifs upstream en open source Approche recommandée : commencer par les services les moins complexes, investir massivement dans les tests automatisés À la 14e migration, le processus était si rodé qu'il allait plus vite que la toute première tentative OpenJDK Interim Policy on Generative AI - https://openjdk.org/legal/ai OpenJDK adopte une politique intérimaire interdisant toute contribution incluant du contenu généré par des LLMs, modèles de diffusion ou systèmes deep-learning Le périmètre est large : code source, texte, images dans les dépôts Git, pull requests GitHub, emails, pages wiki et issues JBS Les contributeurs peuvent utiliser les outils d'IA de manière privée pour comprendre, déboguer et relire le code OpenJDK, mais ne peuvent pas contribuer le contenu généré Trois risques justifient cette politique : surcharge des relecteurs face au code plausible mais incorrect, risques de sûreté/sécurité pour une plateforme critique, et risques de propriété intellectuelle (l'OCA exige que les contributeurs possèdent les droits IP de leurs contributions) Même éditer partiellement du code AI-généré ne le rend pas acceptable à la contribution Oracle, sponsor corporatif d'OpenJDK, travaille sur une politique complète à soumettre au Governing Board GraalVM Native Image et la Closed-World Assumption en Java https://pvs-studio.com/en/blog/posts/java/1357/ Un bon article de rappel du contexte de closed world en Java GraalVM Native Image compile les applications Java en exécutables natifs statiques, sans JVM au runtime. La JVM fonctionne en monde ouvert : les classes sont chargées à la demande, les appels sont des références symboliques résolues dynamiquement. Native Image impose la "closed-world assumption" : tous les chemins d'exécution doivent être connus à la compilation. Les fonctionnalités dynamiques Java (réflexion, proxies, chargement de classes) créent des chemins cachés invisibles à l'analyse statique. C'est pourquoi Native Image exige des fichiers de configuration explicites pour la réflexion, les proxies, les ressources et la FFM API. L'article illustre le problème avec la Foreign Function & Memory API pour appeler printf natif : fonctionne sur JVM, échoue en Native Image sans config. Inclure tout le bytecode accessible serait inutilisable : binaire géant, compilation très lente, et la réflexion nécessite des métadonnées précises. La configuration n'est pas un défaut de conception mais une conséquence logique du passage du dynamique au statique. Java 26 : les nouveautés https://foojay.io/today/java-26-whats-new/ Java est le langage de la JVM, publié tous les 6 mois depuis Java 9 ; Java 26 est une version non-LTS avec 10 JEPs. JEP 500 : protection des champs final modifiés par réflexion profonde, avec des avertissements configurables. JEP 504 : suppression définitive de l'API Applet, plus supportée par les navigateurs. JEP 516 : le cache AOT (Project Leyden) fonctionne désormais avec n'importe quel garbage collector. JEP 517 : support HTTP/3 dans le client HTTP, HTTP/2 reste le défaut mais HTTP/3 est accessible à la demande. JEP 522 : amélioration du débit du GC G1 en réduisant la synchronisation entre threads applicatifs et threads GC. Nouveau support des UUIDv7 via UUID.ofEpochMillis(), naturellement triables et adaptés aux identifiants de bases de données. Process devient AutoCloseable, utilisable dans un try-with-resources. Aucune fonctionnalité en preview n'est graduée en standard ; Structured Concurrency en est à sa 6e preview. Librairies Guillaume a créé une petite librairie Java sans dépendance pour extraire le JSON d'une réponse d'un LLM un peu verbeux https://glaforge.dev/posts/2026/03/22/extracting-json-from-llm-chatter-with-jsonspotter/ Les LLM génèrent souvent du JSON, mais il est parfois entouré de bla-bla et/ou contient des erreurs (ex: commentaires, virgules finales) qui bloquent les parseurs JSON standards. Guillaume a créé une petite librairie légère sans dépendance pour localiser et extraire la structure la plus longue ressemblant à du JSON (même malformé) On peut ensuite passé cette chaîne à un parseur "lénient" (plus tolérant) comme Jackson pour ensuite avoir de bons vieux objets Java fortement typés Librairie dispo sur Maven Central ADK Java sort sa version 1.0 (Agent Development Kit par Google) https://developers.googleblog.com/announcing-adk-for-java-100-building-the-future-of-ai-agents-in-java/ ADK est un framework open source de Google pour créer des agents IA, initialement en Python, maintenant multi-langages (Python, Java, Go, Typescript). Nouvelles fonctionnalités majeures : Outils puissants : GoogleMapsTool, UrlContextTool, ContainerCodeExecutor, VertexAiCodeExecutor, abstraction ComputerUseTool. Architecture de plugins centralisée : Nouveau conteneur App pour gérer les Plugins à l'échelle de l'application (ex: LoggingPlugin, GlobalInstructionPlugin). Context engineering amélioré : Compaction d'événements pour gérer la taille des fenêtres de contexte (résumé et rétention). Human-in-the-Loop (HITL) : Supporte les workflows ToolConfirmation pour approbation humaine des actions d'agent. Services de session et de mémoire : Contrats clairs pour la gestion de l'état (InMemory, VertexAI, Firestore) et la mémoire à long terme. Support Agent2Agent (A2A) : Collaboration native entre agents distants de différents frameworks via le protocole A2A. Dans cet autre article, Guillaume partage comment il a développé l'application Comic Trip montrée dans la vidéo YouTube et qui utilise ADK 1.0 https://glaforge.dev/posts/2026/03/30/building-my-comic-trip-agent-with-adk-java-1-0/ Nouvelle version du SDK Java pour Agent2Agent Protocol, avec le support de la version 1.0 de la spécification https://medium.com/google-cloud/a2a-java-sdk-1-0-0-beta1-released-e83c414b34cc Alignement avec la version 1.0 de la spécification Nouveau groupId org.a2aproject.sdk et package org.a2aproject.sdk Protocoles de transport : support complet et équivalent pour JSON-RPC, gRPC et HTTP+JSON/REST. Gestion des erreurs : introduction de codes d'erreur et détails structurés pour une meilleure observabilité. Optimisation HTTP : ajout d'en-têtes de cache pour les métadonnées des agents (Agent Card). Flexibilité du client HTTP : support par défaut du JDK HttpClient, avec option Vert.x pour les environnements Quarkus. Nouvelles fonctionnalités techniques : méthode DataPart.fromJson() pour la création simplifiée d'objets depuis du JSON brut. Prochaines étapes (v1.0.0.GA) : support simultané des versions 1.0.0 et 0.3.0 du protocole pour assurer l'interopérabilité. JPA 4.0 Milestone 2 : nouvelles fonctionnalités pour Jakarta Persistence https://in.relation.to/2026/04/23/JPA-4-M2/ Jakarta Persistence (JPA) est la spécification standard Java pour le mapping objet-relationnel (ORM), implémentée notamment par Hibernate. JPA 4.0 M2 est la deuxième milestone de la prochaine version majeure de la spécification, annoncée par Gavin King. Construction de requêtes Criteria à partir de chaînes JPQL, offrant plus de flexibilité dans la composition dynamique des requêtes. Nouveaux types d'expressions spécialisés (TextExpression, NumericExpression) pour simplifier l'écriture des requêtes Criteria. Nouvelle interface FetchOption pour contrôler explicitement la stratégie de chargement des associations, dont un BatchSize intégré. Nouvelle annotation @EntityListener qui découple les classes entités de leurs listeners, supprimant les dépendances à la compilation. Les listeners peuvent cibler plusieurs types de callbacks et s'appliquer globalement à toute l'unité de persistance. Introduction de FlushModeType.EXPLICIT et QueryFlushMode pour un contrôle plus fin de la synchronisation avec la base de données. La méta-annotation @Discoverable permet de placer des annotations comme @NamedQuery sur n'importe quelle classe ou interface. Améliorations du DDL via @Index amélioré et clarifications de la spécification via la javadoc. Quarkus 3.35 : tree-shaking, PGO et AOT Semeru https://quarkus.io/blog/quarkus-3-35-released/ Quarkus est un framework Java cloud-natif optimisé pour GraalVM et HotSpot, conçu pour les microservices et les environnements conteneurisés. Nouveau JAR tree-shaking expérimental : analyse des dépendances à la compilation pour supprimer les classes inutilisées. Sur le CLI Quarkus, cela supprime plus de 6 000 classes et économise environ 18 Mo (39,5 %). Support du Profile-Guided Optimization (PGO) pour les builds natifs via quarkus.native.pgo.enabled=true. Le PGO est une fonctionnalité Oracle GraalVM, non disponible dans la Community Edition. Support de l'AOT IBM Semeru : le démarrage passe de ~380 ms à ~190 ms dans les premiers tests. Nouvelle extension quarkus-reactive-transactions : support de @Transactional pour les méthodes Hibernate Reactive retournant Uni. Configuration CORS dédiée pour l'interface de management, indépendante de l'interface HTTP principale. Les tests n'utilisent plus les System Properties pour la propagation de configuration, facilitant la parallélisation future. Le serializer jackson sans reflection n'est pas le default du aux retours de cas limites, encore du travail This Week in Spring - 21 avril 2026 https://spring.io/blog/2026/04/21/this-week-in-spring-april-21-2026 Spring Framework 6.2.18 et 7.0.7 corrigent trois failles de sécurité : DoS via fichiers multipart WebFlux, empoisonnement de cache de ressources statiques, et DoS sur Windows. Le support open source de Spring Framework 5.3.x et 6.1.x est terminé, la migration est recommandée. Spring Data 2026.0.0-RC1 introduit l'upsert (MERGE/INSERT ON CONFLICT) dans l'API Template de Spring Data Relational. Spring Data ajoute un RedisMessageSendingTemplate pour la cohérence avec les listeners Redis, et une optimisation de réinitialisation de caches en un seul appel. Spring AI introduit une Session API (série Agentic Patterns, partie 7) : architecture event-sourcée pour la mémoire des agents IA. La Session API supporte la compaction turn-safe, l'isolation de sous-agents en parallèle, et la persistence JDBC (PostgreSQL, MySQL, MariaDB, H2). Elle vise Spring AI 2.1 (novembre 2026) et remplacera à terme l'API ChatMemory. Spring Vault 4.1.0-RC1 et 4.0.2 sont disponibles. Netflix a présenté son usage de Java, Spring Boot et Spring AI dans une vidéo. This Week in Spring - 28 avril 2026 https://spring.io/blog/2026/04/28/this-week-in-spring-april-28-2026 Cette série hebdomadaire de Josh Long compile les nouveautés de l'écosystème Spring : articles, outils, podcasts et annonces de la communauté. Spring Boot 4 introduit un package natif de résilience org.springframework.resilience avec une nouvelle API de retry qui remplace les approches fragiles via Spring Retry ou Resilience4j. L'API retry native de Spring Boot 4 a des noms d'attributs et sémantiques différents des anciennes bibliothèques, rendant les tutoriels pré-2025 obsolètes et sources de bugs silencieux. Le SDK Spring AI pour Amazon Bedrock AgentCore est disponible en GA : il intègre les capacités AgentCore dans Spring AI via annotations et auto-configuration. Le SDK AgentCore gère automatiquement le contrat runtime AgentCore : endpoint /invocations, health check /ping, SSE avec backpressure. Il offre mémoire court terme (sliding window) et long terme (sémantique, préférences, résumé, épisodique), ainsi que des outils pour navigateur et exécution de code en sandbox. Un plugin Maven (Nullability Maven Plugin) simplifie l'intégration de JSpecify et NullAway pour enforcer la null-safety à la compilation dans les projets Java. Le plugin génère automatiquement les fichiers package-info.java par package et configure le compilateur pour traiter les violations de nullabilité comme des erreurs. Josh Long et Dr. Venkat Subramaniam ont co-présenté à Voxxed Days Amsterdam sur "Intelligent Kotlin", avec un épisode de podcast associé. Cloud Amazon S3 Files https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2026/04/amazon-s3-files/ Amazon S3 Files est un nouveau service donnant un accès système de fichiers direct aux données stockées dans les buckets S3 Basé sur la technologie Amazon EFS, il supprime la barrière entre stockage objet et interface système de fichiers sans dupliquer les données Débit en lecture pouvant atteindre plusieurs téraoctets par seconde ; des milliers de ressources de calcul peuvent y accéder simultanément Les données restent accessibles via les deux interfaces : S3 API classique et système de fichiers standard, sans migration nécessaire Cas d'usage : agents IA pour la persistance de mémoire entre pipelines, équipes ML sans staging, simplification des data lakes Disponible dans 34 régions AWS Data et Intelligence Artificielle Comment générer de la musique et des clips audio en Java avec le modèle Lyria 3 https://glaforge.dev/posts/2026/03/25/generating-music-with-lyria-3-and-the-gemini-interactions-java-sdk/ Génération musicale avec Lyria 3 (DeepMind) et le SDK Java Gemini Interactions. Lyria 3 : modèle d'IA générative pour créer musique avec paroles ou pistes instrumentales. Utilisation via le SDK Java de l'API Gemini, nécessite une clé API Gemini. Deux versions de modèle Lyria 3 : lyria-3-clip-preview : Clips courts (30s), extraits. lyria-3-pro-preview : Chansons complètes (jusqu'à 3 min), structurées. Personnalisation via les prompts : Fournir ses propres paroles ou les faire générer. Contrôler la structure de la chanson ([Intro], [Verse], [Chorus], [Outro]). Générer des morceaux instrumentaux uniquement. Utiliser des images comme source d'inspiration (modèle multimodal). Sortie : Audio (MP3) et texte (paroles/structure) directement, sans décodage complexe. Facilite l'intégration de la génération musicale dans les applications Java. Les world model, la prochaine étape pour les IA https://www.lepoint.fr/sciences-nature/comment-le-commando-de-yann-le-cun-se-prepare-a-ringardiser-les-geants-mondiaux-de-lia-depuis-paris-OZVUWTDYBNE25C6WF44265ZQKE/ Yann LeCun a quitté Meta FAIR pour créer AMI Labs (Advanced Machine Intelligence) basée à Paris Sa thèse : les LLMs ne mèneront pas à l'intelligence générale, la vraie IA doit partir de la compréhension du monde physique AMI Labs a levé 1,03 milliard de dollars en seed (le plus grand seed round de l'histoire européenne) à 3,5 milliards de valorisation Les world models apprennent à prédire et comprendre la réalité physique plutôt qu'à prédire le prochain token d'une séquence Slogan d'AMI : "Real intelligence does not start in language. It starts in the world." Paris comme base stratégique pour challenger la Silicon Valley dans la prochaine rupture de l'IA Debezium 2026 : résultats du sondage communautaire https://debezium.io/blog/2026/04/27/debezium-2026-survey-results/ Debezium est un outil de Change Data Capture (CDC) open source qui capture les modifications de bases de données en temps réel pour les diffuser vers des systèmes comme Kafka. 98,6% des répondants utilisent Debezium activement ou prévoient de le faire dans l'année, avec 91,3% déjà en production. 63,8% des déploiements tournent sur Kubernetes, 60,9% utilisent Kafka Connect auto-géré, et 17,4% restent sur des VMs ou bare metal. Helm charts est l'approche dominante pour la gestion de configuration, souvent combiné avec GitOps, CI/CD, Ansible ou Terraform. PostgreSQL domine les connecteurs utilisés à 69,6%, suivi de MySQL (33,3%), SQL Server (29%) et Oracle (27,5%). Les volumes de changements capturés vont de 1-25 modifications par minute jusqu'à 1-2 millions par minute selon les environnements. Infinispan rejoint l'écosystème OGX comme fournisseur de stockage vectoriel https://infinispan.org/blog/2026/04/17/infinispan-joins-ogx-ecosystem OGX (anciennement Llama Stack) est un serveur API agentique open source pour construire des applications d'IA complètes. OGX compose des fournisseurs d'inférence, des stores vectoriels, des backends de sécurité, des runtimes d'outils et du stockage de fichiers en un seul serveur déployable. OGX se positionne comme une alternative à l'API OpenAI, déployable sur diverses infrastructures et modèles. OGX cible les workflows RAG (Retrieval-Augmented Generation) et les applications agentiques. Infinispan s'y intègre comme fournisseur de vector IO, apportant recherche vectorielle, par mots-clés et hybride. Je n'ai pas entendu parlé de ce renommage, vous le voyez dans vos deploiements ? Outillage cmux un nouveau terminal basé sur Ghostty spécialisé pour les coding agents https://cmux.com/ Application macOS native construite sur le moteur de rendu Ghostty (libghostty), offrant une accélération GPU pour une fluidité maximale Conçu spécifiquement pour le multitâche et les workflows assistés par IA, avec des onglets verticaux affichant la branche Git, le répertoire et les ports actifs Intègre des notifications qui illuminent les panneaux lorsqu'un agent IA (Claude Code, Codex, etc.) nécessite l'attention de l'utilisateur Propose un navigateur web intégré et scriptable qui peut être affiché en écran scindé à côté du terminal via une API Alternative moderne à tmux, ne nécessitant pas de fichiers de configuration complexes ou de préfixes de touches pour la gestion des vitres et des sessions Supporte nativement tous les agents de codage en ligne de commande et permet l'automatisation via une API socket et une interface CLI dédiée Git Worktree comme un chef https://www.metal3d.org/blog/2026/git-worktree-comme-un-chef/ Article par Patrice Ferlet Git Worktree: Travailler sur plusieurs branches simultanément via des répertoires distincts. Évite git stash ou clones multiples pour le changement de contexte rapide. Méthode "bare" (recommandée): Cloner le dépôt en mode bare (ex: .bare). Lier le dossier racine au dépôt bare via un fichier .git. Configurer le remote tracking pour voir toutes les branches distantes. Ajouter des worktrees pour chaque branche (git worktree add ). Avantages: Économie d'espace, source de vérité unique (un git fetch met tout à jour), hooks/configs partagés, sécurité. Conseils: Ne jamais faire de git checkout à l'intérieur d'un worktree. git fetch --all depuis n'importe quel worktree pour tout mettre à jour. git worktree add --detach pour tester des merges temporaires sans créer de branche. Supprimer: git worktree remove puis git worktree prune. Un script wtree est fourni pour automatiser l'initialisation du setup "bare". Améliore considérablement le workflow. L'IDE meurt et vite https://x.com/jdegoes/status/2036931874057314390?s=46&t=C18cckWlfukmsB_Fx0FfxQ Des leaders techniques prédisent la fin rapide de l'IDE traditionnel, remplacé par des interfaces conversationnelles agentiques Le changement de paradigme : le développeur n'écrit plus des lignes de code mais exprime son intention et supervise des agents autonomes Des outils comme Claude Code, Copilot et Cursor transforment déjà radicalement les workflows de développement quotidiens L'IDE centré sur l'éditeur de code perd sa raison d'être quand l'agent lit, modifie et structure le code de manière autonome La transition est comparable au passage du desktop au mobile : les pratiques établies depuis 30 ans remises en question en quelques mois Le source de Claude Code a leaké via probablement le codemap et un site decrit sont fonctionnement https://ccunpacked.dev/ Le 31 mars 2026, Anthropic a accidentellement inclus les sourcemaps dans un package npm de Claude Code, exposant ~512 000 lignes de TypeScript La fuite n'était pas un piratage mais une erreur humaine : un "*.map" oublié dans .npmignore Le site ccunpacked.dev a été lancé pour analyser et visualiser le code source décompressé Le code révèle un agent background permanent nommé "KAIROS", un mode furtif pour cacher les contributions des employés Anthropic à l'open source, et 44 feature flags cachés Une fonctionnalité inédite "Buddy" (animal de compagnie électronique dans le terminal) et un mode "dream" pour l'idéation continue ont été découverts Anthropic a confirmé : "Aucune donnée client sensible n'était impliquée. Erreur humaine dans le packaging de la release." Gemini CLI passe aux agents https://x.com/srithreepo/status/2039794081925382307?s=46&t=GLj1NFxZoCFCjw2oYpiJpw Gemini CLI, l'agent IA open source de Google pour le terminal, introduit des hooks dans sa boucle agentique Les hooks permettent d'exécuter des scripts automatiquement (scanners de sécurité, vérifications de conformité, logging) à chaque étape de l'agent Lancement de Gemini CLI GitHub Actions : un agent autonome pour les repositories qui peut exécuter des tâches de codage de routine Support des MCP servers pour étendre les capacités et des "Agent Skills" pour des workflows spécialisés Mode agent disponible dans VS Code et IntelliJ avec accès aux outils du système de fichiers et terminal Wispr, le speech to text en local sur macOS http://wispr.stormacq.com/ Wispr est une application macOS de dictée vocale entièrement locale, propulsée par Whisper (OpenAI) sur appareil, sans cloud ni tracking Sébastien Stormacq a développé Wispr en un jour et demi sans écrire une seule ligne de code, grâce à Kiro CLI (agent IA Amazon) Disponible en open source sur GitHub et via Homebrew Détection automatique de la langue, insertion du texte au curseur dans n'importe quelle application via un raccourci global En un mois : 19 releases incluant mode mains-libres, suppression des mots de remplissage, auto-envoi pour les chats, et un outil CLI Exemple concret de développement vibe coding produisant un outil de qualité production sans expertise Swift préalable Comment, Gordon, l'assistant spécialisé en Docker est né https://n9o.xyz/posts/202603-building-gordon/ Nuno Coração (n9o.xyz) détaille comment Gordon, l'assistant spécialisé Docker, a été construit sur docker-agent, le runtime d'agents IA open source de Docker écrit en Go Les agents sont définis en YAML déclaratif et distribués comme des artefacts OCI, sans mise à jour binaire nécessaire L'architecture initiale en essaim de 9 agents spécialisés a été abandonnée au profit d'un agent racine unique avec un prompt soigneusement conçu Le modèle utilisé est Claude Haiku 4.5, suffisant après optimisation des prompts Principe clé "show, then do" : toute action de l'agent nécessite une approbation explicite de l'utilisateur La description des outils impacte fortement la précision du LLM : ajouter des outils peut paradoxalement dégrader les performances existantes Le prompt est une spécification détaillée (identité, patterns d'accès fichiers, règles de sécurité) plutôt qu'une simple instruction IBM Bob https://bob.ibm.com/blog/announcing-ibm-bob-launch IBM Bob assistant IA d'IBM pour coder sur de vraies codebases (lancé avril 2026) 5 modes : Ask, Plan, Code, Advanced (MCP), Orchestrator Détecte la complexité du code en temps réel et propose des refactos Fait des revues de code automatiques sur tes branches/issues GitHub Permet d'écrire en langage naturel directement dans l'éditeur Fonctionne aussi en terminal/CLI et dans les pipelines CI/CD Sécurité : approbation manuelle, .bobignore, checkpoints, pas de training sur tes prompts How I use Claude - 50 tips pratiques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZzhfPle9QU Staff Engineer Meta partage 50 tips après 6 mois d'utilisation intensive de Claude Code Basé sur ~12h/jour d'usage perso et professionnel Couvre tout : bases, workflows avancés, parallélisation Objectif : partager ce qu'il aurait voulu savoir dès le départ Méthodologies Quelqu'un rale sur la non soutenabilité des bases de code écritent avec des agents https://mariozechner.at/posts/2026-03-25-thoughts-on-slowing-the-fuck-down/ Mario Zechner estime que les agents IA font les mêmes erreurs répétitivement sans apprendre, accumulant la complexité à grande vitesse faute de bottlenecks humains Sans vision globale, les agents créent du cargo-cult : les "best practices" de l'industrie appliquées localement sans cohérence architecturale La croissance de la base de code dégrade la capacité des agents à retrouver le code existant → duplication et incohérences croissantes Il cite des pannes AWS et des initiatives qualité Microsoft comme signes préoccupants liés au code généré par IA Solution : réserver les agents aux tâches délimitées et évaluables, garder l'architecture, les APIs et les systèmes critiques écrits à la main Maintenir une revue de code rigoureuse et traiter les humains comme les gardiens finaux de la qualité On m'oblige à utiliser l'IA https://n.survol.fr/n/on-moblige-a-utiliser-lia Éric D. défend l'adoption obligatoire de l'IA comme décision stratégique légitime, comparable au choix du full remote ou de la stack technique Il distingue la décision stratégique (adoption IA) de la méthode d'accompagnement (qui reste collaborative et bienveillante) La compétence IA devient un critère de recrutement : chercher des candidats déjà curieux et explorateurs de ces outils L'alignement culturel sur les pratiques et outils est un prérequis à la cohésion d'équipe Le refus d'adopter certains outils stratégiques peut justifier de ne pas recruter un candidat autrement compétent Encore une metodo SPDD https://martinfowler.com/articles/structured-prompt-driven/ Problème : l'IA accélère le dev individuel mais amplifie ambiguïtés et incohérences à l'échelle d'une équipe. martinfowler SPDD : traiter les prompts comme des artefacts versionnés, révisables et réutilisables plutôt que des échanges jetables. martinfowler Canvas REASONS : 7 dimensions (Requirements, Entities, Approach, Structure, Operations, Norms, Safeguards) pour guider le LLM de l'intention à l'exécution. martinfowler Workflow en 6 étapes : exigences → analyse → contexte → prompt structuré → code → tests unitaires, chaque étape s'appuyant sur la précédente. martinfowler 3 compétences clés : abstraction d'abord, alignement de l'intention, revue itérative. martinfowler Limites : fort ROI sur du code métier complexe, peu adapté aux hotfixes urgents, scripts jetables ou travail créatif/visuel. m Sécurité Le projet Glasswing pour sécuriser les logiciels https://www.anthropic.com/glasswing Anthropic lance Glasswing, une initiative de cybersécurité utilisant Claude Mythos Preview pour identifier des vulnérabilités zero-day 12 partenaires fondateurs dont AWS, Apple, Cisco, CrowdStrike, Google, JPMorganChase, Linux Foundation, Microsoft et NVIDIA Anthropic investit 100 millions de dollars en crédits de modèle et 4 millions en dons aux organisations de sécurité open source Le modèle opère avec une autonomie substantielle, identifiant des milliers de vulnérabilités dans les OS, navigateurs et infrastructures critiques Plus de 40 organisations supplémentaires ont accès pour scanner et sécuriser leurs systèmes Objectif : donner l'avantage aux défenseurs avant que les techniques de hacking assistées par IA ne se généralisent chez les attaquants LinkedIn vous espionne https://frenchbreaches.com/blog/linkedin-est-accuse-de-fouiller-dans-votre-ordinateur-illegalement Scandale "BrowserGate" : LinkedIn injecte du JavaScript qui tente de détecter les extensions Chrome installées sur votre navigateur Le script analysé contient une liste codée en dur de 6 222 extensions Chrome avec identifiants et chemins de fichiers internes Croissance alarmante de la liste ciblée : 38 extensions en 2017 → 461 en 2024 → ~1 000 en mai 2025 → 6 222 début 2026 Les données collectées incluent aussi CPU, RAM, résolution d'écran, timezone et état batterie pour du fingerprinting Certaines extensions ciblées sont liées à la neurodivergence, aux pratiques religieuses ou aux opinions politiques → violation grave du RGPD LinkedIn défend que le scan vise uniquement à détecter les extensions qui pratiquent le scraping de données Post mortem de la supply chain attack sur la librairie NPM axios https://github.com/axios/axios/issues/10636 Le 31 mars 2026, deux versions malveillantes d'axios (1.14.1 et 0.30.4) ont été publiées via un compte mainteneur compromis Vecteur d'attaque : RAT installé via ingénierie sociale ciblée sur la machine personnelle du mainteneur principal La 2FA ne protège pas si la machine de l'utilisateur est compromise : l'attaquant contrôle tout et peut agir comme l'utilisateur Les packages malveillants injectaient plain-crypto-js@4.2.1, un cheval de Troie multi-plateforme (macOS, Windows, Linux) Détection communautaire en ~3 heures, suppression par npm, mesures correctives : rotation complète des credentials Changements préventifs : publication via OIDC, releases immuables, amélioration des pratiques GitHub Actions Passbolt un gestionnaire de mots de passe open source https://lesjoiesducode.fr/passbolt-gestionnaire-de-mots-de-passe-gratuit-open-source-que-votre-equipe-merite-vraiment Gestionnaire de mots de passe open source conçu pour le partage d'identifiants en équipe, utilisé par plus de 50 000 organisations Chiffrement individuel par utilisateur et par version de credential, pas de coffre-fort partagé — architecture zero-knowledge "Forward secrecy" : quand un membre quitte l'équipe, ses copies chiffrées sont automatiquement révoquées sans reset manuel Supporte TOTP, clés SSH, tokens API et champs personnalisés avec piste d'audit complète de tous les accès Édition communautaire entièrement gratuite avec utilisateurs illimités, auto-hébergeable ou cloud Chiffrement OpenPGP nécessitant passphrase + clé privée, avec tokens visuels anti-phishing Loi, société et organisation Anthropic fait un don d'1,5 millions de dollars à la fondation Apache https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-software-foundation-announces-1-5m-donation-from-anthropic Anthropic donne 1,5 million de dollars à l'ASF pour soutenir l'infrastructure, la sécurité et la communauté open source Vitaly Gudanets (CISO d'Anthropic) : "Soutenir l'ASF est un investissement direct dans la résilience et l'intégrité des systèmes dont dépend l'IA moderne" Les fonds financeront les systèmes de build, les processus de sécurité et les services aux projets Apache Ce don est le déclencheur de l'initiative IA responsable à 10 millions de dollars de l'ASF L'infrastructure Apache est invisible mais critique : des systèmes financiers aux plateformes de santé, elle sous-tend l'écosystème logiciel mondial L'ASF lance l'initiative IA responsable https://news.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-software-foundation-launches-10m-responsible-ai-initiative-with-initial-1-75m-donation L'ASF lance une initiative pour une IA responsable dotée d'un budget de 10 millions de dollars sur 3 ans minimum Anthropic est le premier donateur avec 1,5 million de dollars ; Alpha-Omega contribue 250 000 dollars L'initiative fournit aux projets Apache un accès à des modèles IA pour l'expérimentation et la sécurité Elle soutient l'ensemble de la chaîne IA/ML : pipelines de données, infrastructure, frameworks de deep learning Des tracks de conférences, hackathons et bourses de voyage sont prévus pour élargir la communauté Les principes directeurs incluent la supervision humaine, l'intégrité des licences et la sécurité open source Oracle vire 30000 personnes https://rollingout.com/2026/03/31/oracle-slashes-30000-jobs-with-a-cold-6/ Oracle licencie 20 000 à 30 000 employés, 18% de ses effectifs mondiaux. Les salariés ont appris leur licenciement par un simple email à 6h du matin, sans aucun préavis. L'accès à tous les systèmes (Slack, Zoom, badges) a été coupé immédiatement après. But : libérer 8 à 10 milliards de dollars pour construire des centres de données IA. Oracle a déjà contracté 50 milliards de dettes en 2026 pour financer ses projets IA. Paradoxe : l'entreprise affiche un bénéfice record de 6,13 milliards, mais ses liquidités sont dans le rouge. L'action Oracle a perdu plus de la moitié de sa valeur depuis septembre 2025. Et si l'IA n'était qu'un prétexte pour licencier https://eventuallycoding.com/p/ia-licenciements-et-si-l-intelligence-artificielle-n-etait-qu-une-excuse Hugo Lassiège (eventuallycoding) estime que les entreprises utilisent l'IA comme narratif commode pour masquer des erreurs de gestion passées (Block a triplé ses effectifs post-COVID sans croissance des revenus correspondante) Moins de 1% des licenciements technologiques seraient réellement dus à des gains de productivité IA selon les analyses citées Mesurer la productivité des développeurs reste un problème non résolu, mais les entreprises affirment des gains d'efficacité sans preuves Des pressions économiques réelles (inflation, guerres commerciales, coûts énergétiques) sont masquées derrière le discours IA Les restructurations nécessaires sont présentées comme des transformations AI-driven positives pour rassurer les investisseurs Il y voit une fenêtre d'opportunité pour l'Europe pendant que les géants américains se restructurent GitHub Copilot va utiliser les interacitons pour entrainer ses modèles sauf si vous vous délistez https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/updates-to-github-copilot-interaction-data-usage-policy/ À partir du 24 avril 2026, GitHub utilise par défaut les interactions des utilisateurs Copilot Free, Pro et Pro+ pour entraîner ses modèles Les données collectées incluent le code accepté ou modifié, les snippets envoyés, les noms de fichiers et structures de dépôts, et les retours utilisateurs Les utilisateurs Copilot Business, Enterprise et les dépôts d'entreprise sont exclus de cette collecte de données d'entraînement Opt-out disponible dans les paramètres GitHub > "Privacy" ; les préférences de désactivation préalables sont conservées automatiquement Objectif déclaré : améliorer la précision des modèles sur les langages et cas d'usage du monde réel Grosse percée de Claude Code dans les commits sur GitHub https://aifoc.us/damn-claude-thats-a-lot-of-commits/ Explosion de Claude Code : En six mois, Claude Code est passé de 0,7 % à 4,5 % de tous les commits publics sur GitHub, surpassant tous les autres outils d'IA combinés. Adoption massive des agents IA : Environ 5 % des commits publics sur GitHub sont désormais générés par des agents IA, un chiffre en croissance rapide depuis fin 2025. Domination des bots sur GitHub : Au-delà des commits, les outils d'IA sont omniprésents dans la gestion des pull requests et des problèmes (Copilot et CodeRabbit notamment). Limites méthodologiques : Les données ne concernent que les dépôts publics (les entreprises utilisent massivement des dépôts privés, invisibles ici). Le comptage dépend fortement de la visibilité des signatures (certains outils comme Claude marquent systématiquement leurs commits, d'autres non) L'API de recherche GitHub présente une fiabilité variable à cette échelle. Changement de paradigme : Le développement logiciel vit une transition majeure, comparable au passage du desktop au mobile. L'intégration des agents IA dans le cycle de production n'est plus une expérimentation, mais une réalité opérationnelle à grande échelle. Dysmaths une application pour aider à apprendre les mathématiques et la géométrie lorsque l'on souffre de dyspraxie, dysgraphie https://dysmaths.com/ Application web pour aider les élèves de collège et lycée souffrant de dysgraphie et dyspraxie à faire des maths et de la géométrie Outils de dessin à main levée, géométrie précise (compas, rapporteur, règle) et opérations structurées (fractions, racines, puissances, symboles mathématiques) Export PDF et PNG avec conservation fidèle de l'échelle pour l'impression et la soumission des exercices Options d'accessibilité : police OpenDyslexic, personnalisations d'interface, import d'images et de PDFs Répond à un besoin réel : les outils standards ne sont pas adaptés aux difficultés de coordination et d'organisation spatiale en mathématiques IA ou réalité ? Par Amistory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPYdAhBBF2I L'IA génère des contenus (images, voix, vidéos) de plus en plus indétectables Les arnaques au clonage de voix et deepfakes sont en forte hausse Les faux contenus viraux manipulent l'opinion à grande échelle Le faux n'est plus un accident, c'est devenu un système organisé La société entre dans une ère de doute généralisé sur le réel Comment s'informer quand le réel lui-même peut être simulé ? Conférences La liste des conférences provenant de Developers Conferences Agenda/List par Aurélie Vache et contributeurs : 6-7 mai 2026 : Devoxx UK 2026 - London (UK) 12 mai 2026 : Lead Innovation Day - Leadership Edition - Paris (France) 12-13 mai 2026 : Lyon Craft - Lyon (France) 19 mai 2026 : La Product Conf Paris 2026 - Paris (France) 19-20 mai 2026 : Green Code Challenge - Paris (France) 21-22 mai 2026 : Flupa UX Days 2026 - Paris (France) 22 mai 2026 : AFUP Day 2026 Lille - Lille (France) 22 mai 2026 : AFUP Day 2026 Paris - Paris (France) 22 mai 2026 : AFUP Day 2026 Bordeaux - Bordeaux (France) 22 mai 2026 : AFUP Day 2026 Lyon - Lyon (France) 27 mai 2026 : aMP Day Strasbourg 2026 - Strasbourg (France) 28 mai 2026 : DevCon 27 : I.A. & Vibe Coding - Paris (France) 28 mai 2026 : Cloud Toulouse 2026 - Toulouse (France) 29 mai 2026 : NG Baguette Conf 2026 - Paris (France) 29 mai 2026 : Agile Tour Strasbourg 2026 - Strasbourg (France) 2-3 juin 2026 : Agile Tour Rennes 2026 - Rennes (France) 2-3 juin 2026 : OW2Con - Paris-Châtillon (France) 3 juin 2026 : IA–NA - La Rochelle (France) 4 juin 2026 : Workplace Intelligence Days - 1ère édition - Lyon (France) 5 juin 2026 : TechReady - Nantes (France) 5 juin 2026 : Fork it! - Rouen - Rouen (France) 6 juin 2026 : Polycloud - Montpellier (France) 9 juin 2026 : JFTL - Montrouge (France) 9 juin 2026 : C: - Caen (France) 9 juin 2026 : France API 2026 - Paris (France) 11-12 juin 2026 : DevQuest Niort - Niort (France) 11-12 juin 2026 : DevLille 2026 - Lille (France) 12 juin 2026 : Tech F'Est 2026 - Nancy (France) 15 juin 2026 : Jupyter Workshops: Demystifying MyST Markdown in Education - Orsay (France) 16 juin 2026 : Mobilis In Mobile 2026 - Nantes (France) 17-19 juin 2026 : Devoxx Poland - Krakow (Poland) 17-20 juin 2026 : VivaTech - Paris (France) 18 juin 2026 : Tech'Work - Lyon (France) 22-26 juin 2026 : Galaxy Community Conference - Clermont-Ferrand (France) 23-24 juin 2026 : MWCP 2026 - Paris (France) 24-25 juin 2026 : Agi'Lille 2026 - Lille (France) 24-26 juin 2026 : BreizhCamp 2026 - Rennes (France) 25-26 juin 2026 : Agile Tour Toulouse 2026 - Toulouse (France) 27 juin 2026 : Asynconf - Paris (France) 2 juillet 2026 : Azur Tech Summer 2026 - Valbonne (France) 2-3 juillet 2026 : Sunny Tech - Montpellier (France) 3 juillet 2026 : Agile Lyon 2026 - Lyon (France) 6-8 juillet 2026 : Riviera Dev - Sophia Antipolis (France) 28-30 août 2026 : State of the Map - Champs-sur-Marne (France) 4 septembre 2026 : JUG Summer Camp 2026 - La Rochelle (France) 10-11 septembre 2026 : Nantes Craft - Nantes (France) 17 septembre 2026 : dotAI - Paris (France) 17-18 septembre 2026 : API Platform Conference 2026 - Lille (France) 18 septembre 2026 : dotJS - Paris (France) 18 septembre 2026 : WordCamp Bretagne - Rennes (France) 22 septembre 2026 : Salon Data 2026 - Nantes (France) 22-23 septembre 2026 : Agile en Seine & IA 2026 - Paris (France) 24 septembre 2026 : OWASP AppSec Days France 2026 - Paris (France) 24 septembre 2026 : PlatformCon Paris - Paris (France) 24 septembre 2026 : React Native Connection 2026 - Paris (France) 24-26 septembre 2026 : Paris Web 2026 - Paris (France) 28-29 septembre 2026 : 4th Tech Summit on AI & Robotics - Paris (France) & Online 1 octobre 2026 : WAX 2026 - Marseille (France) 1-2 octobre 2026 : Volcamp - Clermont-Ferrand (France) 2 octobre 2026 : DevFest Perros-Guirec 2026 - Perros-Guirec (France) 5-9 octobre 2026 : Devoxx Belgium - Antwerp (Belgium) 12 octobre 2026 : Dev With AI - Paris (France) 27-29 octobre 2026 : Directions EMEA 2026 - Paris (France) 29-30 octobre 2026 : BDX I/O 2026 - Bordeaux (France) 30 octobre 2026 : Cloud Nord 2026 - Lille (France) 4-5 novembre 2026 : Devoxx Morocco - Casablanca (Morocco) 14-15 novembre 2026 : Capitole du Libre - Toulouse (France) 19 novembre 2026 : DevFest Toulouse 2026 - Toulouse (France) 27 novembre 2026 : DevFest Paris 2026 - Paris (France) 1-3 décembre 2026 : Apidays Paris - Paris (France) 4 décembre 2026 : DevFest Lyon 2026 - Lyon (France) 4 décembre 2026 : DevFest Dijon 2026 - Dijon (France) 9-10 décembre 2026 : OpenSource Expérience - Paris (France) 9-10 décembre 2026 : DevOps REX - Paris (France) 10 décembre 2026 : KCD Provence - Aix-en-Provence (France) 7-9 avril 2027 : Devoxx France 2027 - Paris (France) Nous contacter Pour réagir à cet épisode, venez discuter sur le groupe Google https://groups.google.com/group/lescastcodeurs Contactez-nous via X/twitter https://twitter.com/lescastcodeurs ou Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/lescastcodeurs.com Faire un crowdcast ou une crowdquestion Soutenez Les Cast Codeurs sur Patreon https://www.patreon.com/LesCastCodeurs Tous les épisodes et toutes les infos sur https://lescastcodeurs.com/

GopherCon Agenda is live!  Aug 3-6 @ SeattleGo 1.26.3 and 1.25.10 released with 11 security fixesGo + LLM projectsgosymdb: A Go symbol and call-graph database backed by SQLite.cli-bridge: If you want agents to actually use your CLI, this is the missing piece. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Cybersecurity Looks Like Proof of Work Now, Compensating for RAM Constraints with L2ARC on ZFS, GhostBSD 26.1, and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines Cybersecurity Looks Like Proof of Work Now Compensating for RAM Constraints with L2ARC on ZFS GhostBSD 26.1 News Roundup I connected a phone to my FreeBSD server My Journey to the BSDs The unseen hero of OpenBSD Beastie Bits BSD Can Schedule up OpenBSD Campaign 2025 OpenBSD Campaign 2026 Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

Building Repeatables in Claude: Skills, CLI vs MCP and Token Discipline | Go With The Flow Claude Skills, CLI vs MCP and Token Discipline with Ritu Java | Seller Sessions SEO Description Ritu Java and Danny McMillan on building agentic skills, choosing CLI over MCP, plan mode discipline and the short window to ship before token costs reset. Episode Summary Week 4 of the month, Go With The Flow, and Ritu Java is back from her travels. The world has shipped fast since the last episode: Codex 5.5, Claude 4.7, an Amazon Ads MCP and a fresh round of panic over the rumoured removal of Claude Code from the $20 plan (it was a 2% AB test, not a rollout). Ritu and Danny use the noise to make a sharper point: this is the moment to stop chasing models and start building repeatable systems on the platform you have already chosen. Ritu walks through the three eras of PPC Ninja's automation stack. Apps Script bulk file generators three years ago, Netlify hosted UI apps last year, and now agentic skills that her team chats with in plain English to produce upload ready Amazon bulk files. The same shift applies to data: BigQuery accessed through the Google Cloud CLI rather than through MCP, because CLI is leaner on tokens and works better when the job is heavy on data rather than tool surface. Danny mirrors the move with his event-ops CLI for WordPress, WooCommerce, Stripe and FooEvents reconciliation, and his four tier ExtractFlow cascade (HTTP, headless, stealth, agentic) that bypasses the limits of any single browser tool. The second half is a discipline talk. Plan mode every time. Push back on the first plan because Claude over engineers by default. 30% of your time on workflow scaffolding so the other 70% can be real building. The 21 day Claude rule: when a shiny new tool fires the dopamine, wait 21 days before refactoring around it. Left brain tasks (counting, SQL, deterministic logic) belong in scripts. Right brain tasks (judgment, creativity, hypotheses) belong in the model. Mix them inside a single skill. Skills are micro pieces of your workflow, not magic, and Claude can write them for you from an existing SOP. Key Topics The three eras of PPC Ninja automation: Apps Script, Netlify UI apps, agentic skills CLI vs MCP: when to choose each and why CLI is more token efficient for data heavy work Token economics, the rumoured $20 plan change and why it was a 2% AB test The short window before subsidised tokens get repriced Plan mode discipline and the "push back on plan one" rule Danny's 30 / 70 framework: workflow scaffolding vs building The 21 day Claude rule for resisting tool churn Left brain vs right brain task design inside a single skill The PPC Ninja "5 Whys" skill: deterministic SQL plus non deterministic hypotheses Claude.md, Gemini.md, Skills.yaml and the emerging Agents.md standard Skills for beginners: let Claude write them from your SOP Skill cascading: research, article, LinkedIn post, tweets, slide deck in one chain Timestamps [00:01] Welcome back, Week 4 Go With The Flow, Ritu returns from travels [00:17] Codex 5.5, Claude 4.7 and the "no one is writing code anymore" reality [02:01] Ritu on the three eras of PPC Ninja automation [02:42] Era 1: Apps Script bulk file generators in Google Sheets [03:46] Era 2: Netlify hosted UI apps with input fields [04:48] Era 3: Agentic skills, the bulk file skill trained on Amazon templates [06:22] Cloud talking to BigQuery through the Google Cloud CLI [07:00] Danny: what is a CLI and why it matters for token use [08:00] Amazon Advertising MCP vs CLI based access to the same data [09:33] WordPress horrible to drive via MCP, easy via CLI [10:00] Danny's event-ops CLI: tickets, food tickets, WooCommerce, Stripe reconciliation [12:13] ExtractFlow four tier cascade: soft, medium, stealth, agentic [13:46] Why CLI for the heavy stuff, MCP for the soft touch [14:13] AWS CLI: chat to Claude, push HTML blog posts live in two minutes [15:33] The overwhelm problem and the 5,000costbehindthe5,000costbehindthe100 plan [17:35] The $20 plan rumour: it was a 2% AB test, not a rollout [19:38] Build repeatables, not one offs [20:38] Danny: pick a platform and stop chasing benchmarks [21:16] The 21 day Claude rule for new tools [22:16] Plan mode every time, push back on plan one, get the second plan [23:02] Why am I building it, who is it for, what am I building [23:30] The 30 / 70 split: workflow scaffolding vs real building [25:13] Why long six to fourteen hour Claude runs are usually inefficiency [27:12] Compounding 1% a day across a year [27:47] "I build the things that build things" [28:00] Architecture vs apps: filling the gaps between A and B [29:06] Left brain vs right brain task design [30:01] Why throwing 80/20 at a sales drop diagnosis fails [31:33] The PPC Ninja 5 Whys skill: deterministic plus non deterministic in one flow [34:32] Claude.md, Gemini.md, skills.yaml and the agents.md standard [40:53] Beginners: let Claude write the skill from your SOP, use the interview pattern [42:39] Skill cascading: URL to research to article to LinkedIn post to tweets to slides [44:42] Mixing deterministic and non deterministic inside a single skill [45:39] Wrap up, signal to noise, who is it for Key Takeaways Pick a platform and stop chasing models. A new model ships every week. Time spent benchmarking is time not building. Double down on Claude (or whichever you chose), use the 21 day rule, and let the ecosystem catch up to the shiny thing in your feed. CLI for heavy work, MCP for soft touch. MCP loads tools and skills into context and burns tokens. CLI uses programs already on your machine. For data heavy jobs (BigQuery, AWS, WordPress at scale), CLI wins. For light cross app workflows, MCP is fine. Build repeatables, not one offs. Subsidised tokens will not last. The 100planreportedlycostsAnthropic100planreportedlycostsAnthropic5,000 to serve. Spend the window building scaffolding that compounds, not 14 hour vibe coding runs. Plan mode every time, then push back. Claude over engineers by default. Generate the plan, then say "you have over engineered this, although I want it elegant, go back and review." Plan two is the one you start from. 30% on workflow, 70% on building. Each new dependency, MCP, skill or repo you add to your workflow compounds across every future project. Stop building only the apps. Build the things that build the apps. Left brain in scripts, right brain in the model. Counting, SQL, deterministic logic belongs in Python the moment you can offload it. Save the model for hypotheses, judgment and creativity. The PPC Ninja 5 Whys skill mixes both inside one flow. Skills are micro pieces, not magic. Take an SOP, ask Claude to interview you with decision panels, and let it write the skill. Then cascade skills together: URL to research to long form article to LinkedIn post to tweets to slide deck. Notable Quotes "Instead of doing one offs, it is time to build repeatables. The more people can learn that skill now, the better it will be, because a year from now you may not have access to the same tokens." Ritu Java "If you see something and it looks sexy and it has sex and sizzle and your dopamine is screaming to go after it, wait 21 days. Either Claude will have it, or someone will have a repo, and you can combine it." Danny McMillan "Always use plan mode. Never accept plan number one. Tell Claude: you have over engineered this, although I want it elegant, go back and review. Then start from plan two." Danny McMillan "I build the things that build things. I build the scaffolding the team needs so they can build on top of it." Danny McMillan "Spend 30% of your time on your workflow and 70% building. The 30% compounds across every project." Danny McMillan "If we just hand six months of ad, organic, ranking and SQP data to Claude with no structure, it is going to mess up. It will give you an 80/20 you are not satisfied with, because it is not equipped to handle that volume without scaffolding." Ritu Java "WordPress is horrible to work with through MCP. It falls over all the time. CLI can be amazing for certain things." Danny McMillan Resources Mentioned PPC Ninja : Ritu's Amazon PPC software and agency, base for the BigQuery + CLI stack discussed Claude Code : Anthropic's CLI for Claude, the primary surface used in the episode Anthropic Claude : Claude 4.7 referenced as the current model OpenAI Codex : Codex 5.5 mentioned as the rival shipping fast Google Gemini CLI : Referenced as a sibling agent surface (Gemini.md) Google BigQuery : PPC Ninja's central data warehouse Google Cloud CLI (gcloud) : The CLI Claude uses to talk to BigQuery Amazon Advertising MCP : Amazon's official MCP server for ads data, referenced as the MCP comparison point AWS CLI : Used by Ritu to publish HTML blog posts to ppcninja.com from a Claude chat Netlify : Hosting layer for PPC Ninja's previous era of UI based apps WordPress and WooCommerce : Backbone of Danny's event-ops CLI FooEvents : Ticketing plugin that lives behind WooCommerce in the event-ops flow Stripe : Source of the card fee variation Danny reconciles via CLI ExtractFlow / CloudExtract : Danny's four tier extraction cascade (HTTP, headless, stealth, agentic). Open repo Playwright : The default browser automation tier inside ExtractFlow Agents.md : Emerging AI agnostic instruction file standard alongside Claude.md and Gemini.md Sequential Thinking MCP : The MCP Danny invokes when asking Claude to step through analysis Hosts Danny McMillan : Host of Seller Sessions, founder of DataBrill, building AI native tooling and CLI based workflows for Amazon sellers. Website: https://sellersessions.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannymcmillan Ritu Java : CEO and co founder of PPC Ninja, Amazon PPC software and agency. Specialises in automation, BigQuery pipelines and agentic workflow design. LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/ritujava Website: https://www.ppcninja.com What's Next Next week: Ritu and Danny pick up routines and the new Claude scheduler. In 8 days: Seller Sessions Live 2026 in London on 9 May. Last week to lock in any final discounts. About Seller Sessions Seller Sessions is the leading podcast for serious Amazon sellers, hosted by Danny McMillan since 2017. Go With The Flow is the weekly automation strand where Danny and Ritu Java work through agentic flows, MCPs, CLIs and skills, in real time, on the same stack their teams ship every week. Episode published: 1 May 2026 Series: Go With The Flow (Week 4 of the month) Keywords: claude skills, claude code, cli vs mcp, mcp model context protocol, claude 4.7, codex 5.5, amazon ppc automation, bigquery cli, agentic workflows, plan mode, token optimisation, claude.md, agents.md, ppc ninja, ritu java, seller sessions podcast, go with the flow

Breaking up Big Tech, Porting MacOS to the Nintendo Wii, OpenBSD on the Pomera DM250, Postgres is your friend and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines Breaking up with Big Tech Porting MacOS to the Nintendo Wii News Roundup Installing OpenBSD on the Pomera DM250 Postgres is Your Friend. ORM is Not Java Sun SPOTs I like to use Soviet control panels as a starting point Beastie Bits OSHintosh - an open source 68000 Macintosh Time to update 2.11BSD: biggest patch ever landed before 35th anniversary A quick and easy Guide to Tmux Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Producer Note, If you have emailed in and you havent heard back and we havent covered your message, email again. Our email is flooded with spam and I might have missed your message. Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

Bitwarden's CLI got hit by the Checkmarx supply-chain campaign, TypeScript 7.0 beta lands with the Go-rewritten compiler running ~10x faster than 6.0, and pgBackRest lost its maintainer of thirteen years leaving anyone running production Postgres with a real dependency-trust task this week. We've also got Ubuntu 26.04 LTS shipping with TPM-backed full-disk encryption, and Matz dropping Spinel as an AOT path that takes Ruby to native binaries. This week was a good reminder that the tools we depend on are all moving at once. Security, performance, and maintenance aren't isolated threads.

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

What if your engineering calculations secretly sabotaged your nation's best efforts? This week, we reveal how a newly uncovered 21-year-old NSA rootkit quietly corrupted scientific research in hostile states and why it changes everything you think you know about cyberwarfare. Bitwarden's CLI hit with a supply-chain attack. Commercial routers in Iran fail shortly before the war. Meta logging all employee activity to train replacement AI. GRC's DNS Benchmark Release 5. Two miscellaneous AI thoughts. A bunch of terrific listener feedback. Unraveling the diabolical history of "fast16.sys" Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1076-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: doppel.com threatlocker.com/twit material.security cyberhoot.com/securitynow guardsquare.com

Today on the show I'm talking with Amelia Wattenberger — designer, data-viz veteran, ex-GitHub Next, and now designing Intent at Augment Code. What if the last 30% of any software project is about to become the hardest part you've ever done? That's the argument Amelia is making today. We discuss the identity crisis developers are having as agents take over the keyboard, the epic redesign of developer tooling in this agent-first world, the arc from autocomplete to chat to CLI back to UI, why Intent treats a workspace as their core primitive not a chat thread, the tradeoffs between one-worktree-per-agent vs. one-worktree-per-task, and why she thinks prototyping just got easier but finishing got harder.

Sponsor OneSkin improves your skincare routine with science-backed skin care products. With over 10,000 five-star reviews and validation from clinical studies, OneSkin has made a name for itself in the skincare industry. If you’re interested in trying OneSkin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code OVERTIRED at oneskin.co/OVERTIRED. Chapters 00:00 Gang Back Together 01:23 Mental Health Corner 01:39 Back Pain Diagnosis 07:09 Dental Insurance Racket 12:34 Post Surge Recovery 19:24 Surgery And Withdrawal 24:36 Sponsor One Skin 26:23 Terminal Widget Reveal 31:24 Widgets And Visualizations 34:51 Release Plans And Review 36:56 Universal Bundle Pricing 37:38 AI Boosts Mark II Sales 39:20 Leaving Oracle Behind 40:03 Ninety Hour Workweeks 41:55 NV Ultra Vaporware Woes 43:17 Missing Collaborators Online 45:09 Dan Peterson Secret App 46:23 The Pit TV Complaints 50:49 ER Nostalgia and Cast 54:01 Season Two and Other Shows 58:33 Gratitude App Picks 01:00:09 AI Tools and Claude Code 01:04:35 Bookshelves and Audiobooks 01:07:10 Wrap Up and Sleep Show Links TerminalWidget Marked 3 Bezel BookShelves Claude app Join the Conversation Merch! Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Transcript Projects and Pitt-falls Gang Back Together Christina: [00:00:00] What’s that? Do you see a podcast update in your feed? Well that’s because you’re back on, on Overtired and, uh, and I’m Christina Warren and I’m joined by, uh, Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra. What do you know? The whole gang is back together. Overtired, everybody what Jeff: Hi everybody. Brett: I need a, we need a party sound. We need a Christina: we do. We need a soundboard. We need a soundboard and we need a, a way to be like what Gangs all here. Some sort of a like a either a a we need a horn. That’s what we need. We need one of those. Those horns they play at at at football games. Jeff: would like that very much. Brett: or that like B. Christina: exactly. Jeff: yeah, Brett: That would really wake people up. Christina: It really would. And, and especially, um, all of us. ’cause I we’re recording this earlier than we ever do. Brett’s been up for a really long time and, uh, I think Jeff is probably like raring to go, but I’m like, I, well now Jeff: raring to go, but I’m warming [00:01:00] up. Christina: Yeah, I, I, I’ve been up since like five 30, so I’m okay too, but yeah. Brett: I wrote an entire shortcuts in shortcut intense interface for my new app this morning, and it’s actually working. I’ve never written for shortcuts before. Christina: Well, Ooh, we will, yeah, you gotta talk to us more about that ’cause I wanna hear more about that. Mental Health Corner Christina: Um, but first I think we should probably do, um, because it’s been a while since we’ve all been together, we should probably do a little bit of a mental health corner. Brett: yeah, Who wants to kick that off? Okay, fine. I will. Jeff: health. Mental health. Silence. Back Pain Diagnosis Brett: I, uh, I, I, my sleep has gotten a little worse than it was before when I told you it was bad. Um, I’m, now, I’m back down to like five hours a night and I just wake up at like 2:00 AM. And like I go to bed by eight or nine and I get up at [00:02:00] 2:00 AM every morning and I just cannot, for the life of me fall back asleep. And for like the first hour I’m up, I’m not even really awake. Um, I’m just kind of sitting on the couch staring at my computer and not be, not able to do anything After about an hour. Um. I, I, I’ll get some coffee, I’ll take my meds and like then it’s kind of like most people’s, like maybe 10:00 AM 11:00 AM um, by, by like 3:00 AM but it’s still wearing me down. Um, I got, so I’ve had back pain, um, for a while now. Uh, I can’t stand up for more than about five minutes and I can’t walk for more than three to five minutes, which has really put a dent in my, um, ability to exercise. And, um, so I finally got, I got an MRI [00:03:00] done, and they. Diagnose me with stenosis, which I think is kind of a, a broad term, but like a couple of the discs in my lower back have collapsed and, um, they, they, they think I can be treated with, uh, with shots and not surgery. Um, so I’m hoping, I’m hoping to get that figured out because, okay, so right now, uh, we, we always go on walks in the wildlife refuge, um, like the wetlands refuge near us, and I love it. We, we see so much cool stuff there and I hadn’t really been able to, but what I found was this little, it’s like. Folded up, it’s like two feet tall, uh, camp chair and it, it’s like a camp stool. And so I carry that with us while we walk and then like every three minutes I’ll like have to set it up on [00:04:00] the side of the trail sit. And if I sit for two minutes, the pain goes away, I can then walk again immediately. Um, but like after, after three to five minutes, like my back freezes up and I, like, I literally, I can’t move anymore. Um, so this little, uh, take carrying a chair and doing it in three minutes stints, um, has at least allowed me to get out and get some green time. But that’s kinda where I’m at. Jeff: What does this little chair look like? Uh Brett: It’s blue Jeff: huh. Brett: and it has four legs and it’s can canvas. Jeff: is it like an adorable little camp chair that you’re supposed to be able to like Brett: I think it’s a toddler’s ch camp chair. Jeff: Excellent. This is the detail I Brett: like, it’s smaller than my butt. Like I’m perching on it, but it’s enough to like get my back, uh, into feeling. Okay. And it’s not too heavy to like carry[00:05:00] Jeff: Show art, but the art, the art is you perching. Just to be really clear. Brett: Yes. My, my 280 pounds pound perched on a two foot camp stool, it’ll be great. Jeff: Wow. Well, I’m glad there’s something like some kind of thing Brett: Yeah, no, it’s actually really good. It’s really good to get the stenosis diagnosis and ’cause for a long time I just assumed because I gained weight, my, my back wouldn’t work anymore, which was depressing. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I’ve been this heavy before and I have not had this pain. And even after my first like 50 pound sudden weight gain, I didn’t have back pain. So it didn’t make sense that my body just couldn’t handle it, uh, like something else had to be going on. So it was actually much like any diagnosis, I think, um, other than, you know, terminal illness, but for like A [00:06:00] DHD or stenosis or any like mental health condition, it’s a relief to get a diagnosis and find out you weren’t crazy, you weren’t making things up. So yeah, I’m, I’m grateful. Christina: No, I completely like, can, can relate to that. ’cause when I, like with my back, well my cervical spine, um, it was kind of a similar thing. Obviously mine was more acute and it was a different scenario because I got, um, like the, you know, diagnosis relatively quickly, although it still felt like it took longer than, than I wanted it to, to, to get my MRIs and whatnot. Um, but it was similar to you. It was like kind of a relief to be like, oh, okay, so you have like a major problem. This isn’t just you being a wimp and, Brett: Yeah, exactly. Christina: exhilarating pain. Right. Like excruciating pain. Right. And, and just even having that, even knowing, okay, I don’t love that I have to go through [00:07:00] this whole thing. Um, I’m, I’m still like relieved to have a diagnosis and a plan forward. Dental Insurance Racket Brett: Oh, and also I, so I’m on state. Healthcare, and that includes, um, Delta Dental, but it’s this weird version of Delta Dental that nobody in my town accepts. Um, so I have to, I have to drive 45 minutes to get dental care and even then they can’t, he can’t do root canals or anything. And I needed two root canals and that would’ve involved driving two and a half hours or three hours and then going back to the 45 minute away place. And so what I did was I took the extra money I had saved outside of my, like, nest egg savings, but like my working savings. And I paid for a year of actual Delta Dental, um, and started going to a place [00:08:00] just really close to me and, um. It turns out that the best dental health insurance is still shit like it. I don’t know how much dental work you guys get done, but it is, Christina: it’s, it is crappy. Brett: it’s a, it’s, it’s a racket. And I actually watched a YouTube video on why dental insurance is a scam. And it like interviewed Dennis who actually take these like Delta Dental and the Medicaid dentists. Um, and it is truly a scam. And what I found, and this is much the same experience, uh, Christina talked about with her, um, MRII think it was that you did a cash pay. Um, I talked to the dentist and I said, do you have a cash paid discount? And he’s like, oh yeah. And basically. I can just pay cash and do everything for about 60% of the normal cost, and that is better than what [00:09:00] Delta does for me in most cases. Plus, I need so much work that my $2,000 cap with Delta is gone. Christina: Well, I was, I was gonna say like, so when I joined Microsoft, Microsoft used to have really good. Dental insurance, um, respectively speaking as, as good as it can be. But there were still, you know, caps on how much work would be done. But I found like a good person to go to. ’cause I had an incident, um, about a year after I moved to Seattle, maybe less than that, where um, I had to have an emergency root canal and like that sucked. Um, like I went into a normal dentist. She was like, this is what you need. And then I had to like, take an Uber, like over to a guy and see him like that day at like 5:00 PM and I’m like, you know, all like drugged up and, and getting the root canal. And that was not great. And I needed a lot of, of, of work done. Um, and so we split it over like she was a really good dentist and so we split it over. We were like, I was coming close to. The, the end of the calendar year. So she was like, okay, we’re gonna do all of this work and then we will start the next year [00:10:00] when things go forward. And like she knew how to play the system and was like a really good dentist. Well then Micro, then I went to GitHub. GitHub used, um, you know, uh, Delta Dental. And, and that can vary based on plan. Microsoft is apparently on them too. Google also had them on a slightly different plan, and it’s like you never know what you’re getting. And yeah, to your point, because if you need a lot of work done, if you have anything specialized, if you’re, you’re lucky if you get the right plan and you can see a provider in your area, great. But if you don’t, to your point, it is often, this is just fucked up. Like, especially if you’re having to pay out of pocket for it anyway. If it’s part of your employer, you know, benefits, maybe it’s a little different, but it’s like even then it can still wind up being less expensive to just pay the cash stuff than whatever your deductibles are, which have a cap anyway. And, and, and, and, and then, yeah, the, the, the way that the, the Medicaid or, or even insurance pricing works, stuff that they might charge you a very nominal fee for, for like a cleaning or whatever is, or a cavity fill [00:11:00] is gonna be, you know, they’re gonna bill insurance like three or four times that Brett: Right, exactly. So I pay, I pay like 800 bucks for a year of Delta, and that gives me basically $2,000 to work with, plus whatever price they can negotiate. Um, but like you said, like they, they bill three times. Um, so like what still comes out of my like $2,000 pot, um, is higher than I would’ve paid with Christina: If you just paid cash, if you just had an $800 budget, or if you got like, yeah, that’s the thing. Okay. This is an AI app that somebody should build. And I’m saying this hoping that maybe something the audience will, or maybe one of us could vibe code it, because this seems like this would be a relatively easy calculator to do with like certain providers if they, if they, you know, list their things where you could like run the costs and be like, okay, this is, I’m gonna put in this number. This is what my, you know, provider’s fees are. This is what my [00:12:00] insurance thing is. Um, Brett: what my cash pay Christina: this is what my cash pay is. Is it cheaper for me to spend $800 a year on Delta Dental or to just pay cash directly with my, my dentist? Brett: Yeah. Have you as I’ve, as I’ve said to people who have pitched ideas to me in the past, you’re talking about a spreadsheet? Christina: Yes. It is a spreadsheet to be completely out. Yes. But I can now use cloud code to, to to, to, you know, figure out the formula for me is the real thing. Brett: Yeah. There you go. All right. Who’s up? Post Surge Recovery Jeff: Dr. To, um, I can talk, uh, uh, I’m, I mean, I’m doing really well. Uh, I we’re a couple months past, or, you know, a couple months past the operation Metro surge stuff here in January and February, in a little bit of December, but really January. And that was, I’d never kind of experienced like a, a full [00:13:00] taxing of every single person and kind of person I knew and which was amazing. Um, and, uh, and it took a minute when things settled here, um, to, for everybody to kind of figure out what. How to just even enter into the world every day because everything had been driven by what was happening on a almost hourly to hourly basis for, for some time. And, um, and so I kind of moved through that, that period, which was like quite a sort of come down, uh, of adrenaline and, and amygdala sparking. Um, and, and have kind of smoothed a little bit. And, um, and I’m just doing well. I’m having a nice, a nice goal of it right now. Christina: Good. Great to hear. Brett: I, I guess that everything’s relative. Right? Jeff: Yeah. Everything’s relative. Yeah. Yeah. But I think I would call this a nice go of it, uh, even outside the context of comparing [00:14:00] to, to Operation Metro Surge. Brett: that’s, that’s, I, I’m happy for you. That’s awesome. Jeff: I think actually the last time I was on the podcast was with you, Christina, in January right after we had had a raid in our alley, which was even before the surge Christina: You before the big surge, even before Jeff: of an early start. Christina: I was gonna say even before, like I, I, I don’t even know if, if, if the, the, the murder had happened. Um, Jeff: not at all. In fact, we only had 100 extra ice agents here at the time and within a couple of weeks there’d be a woman in front of my house, uh, being pulled out of her car ’cause she was following ice agents and throwing me her phone as she gets tossed into a, into a fucking ice truck. And like it was just, everything happened so fast and so slowly all at the same time. And, and obviously there’s still all sorts of stuff going on, but it is indisputably not what it was in January and February. Brett: I was gonna ask you about that. ’cause like the total number of deportations is only slightly [00:15:00] lower right now than it was during the surge. Um, and they, they removed, they added like, what, 3000 agents and they removed like 800 of them. So, Jeff: they’ve removed way more than Brett: Hey, have they Jeff: oh, yeah. We’re down to, I haven’t, I don’t wanna say the numbers because I haven’t looked at them. We’re, we’re back down to like the high hundreds and we, our baseline is like 1 25. Brett: Okay. Jeff: Yeah. You can tell. Um, it’s, yeah, you can tell. And I, and I’ve been down to the WPO Federal building a a few times, um, which is where ICE was kind of headquartered and there’s just the level of activity there is very low. Um, they had some new vehicles come in at one point about a month ago, but mostly those are replacing rentals that they were using. So it wasn’t like people took it as kind of an indication that they were, you know, staffing up or suiting up again. But it was really just kind of replacing their, their really weird, like sort of duct tape together invasion. Um, it’s kinda like in Iraq when they decided they were gonna [00:16:00] actually armor the Humvees, it was kind of like a little bit of a switch of, of vehicles. Um. Yeah, it’s much different. And like, you know, all the people either in my life or in my community that were in hiding or not, I mean, for the most part, not in hiding anymore vulnerable folks and undocumented folks. And, um, so it’s like, it’s qualitatively and nervous, systemly different Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff: for everybody and still sucks. And there’s still a risk and a threat and, and a horror. And a terror. Brett: Yeah, down here in southern Minnesota, I have not gotten a call to do a food delivery or a grocery delivery for, yeah, a couple months. Um, so yeah, I guess it really has calmed down across the state. Jeff: Yeah. Thank God. I mean, who knows what they’re up to that isn’t as visible, but thank God Brett: exactly. Jeff: over. So yeah, I, I mean it’s, and I actually just had my, my brother’s been in town and every time someone kind of comes to visit, they wanna like. You know, kind of hear or take in what the thing was and you start describing it again, and [00:17:00] now it just, I mean, it felt like a dream at the time. It just felt like, how could this be real? But you were just so in it, like every single person, like you said, Brett, like people were doing grocery deliveries or people were, you know, cooking food for the people that were kind of on the front lines, or you were following ice, or you were dispatching people to follow ice, whatever. It was like every. Single person I could think of as doing something. And uh, and, and so when you try to describe it now, when you look around, especially in my neighborhood where they were all over, um, it it, it seems like, was this, was this real, um, like, was it even real because like, I don’t know, like the end here. ’cause this could go on forever, but I don’t know if any of you saw the footage that went around of a high school called Roosevelt High School, where, uh, where Bovino showed up and there was all this crazy shit and the, the footage of this, um, went around the country and like it was, you know, reposted by freaking everybody that was my son’s school in my neighborhood. And, and so like, it was just this constant thing of like, bovino at my son’s school, binos at my gas station. Like, it was just [00:18:00] utterly insane. And now, and, and every street felt almost, you could feel ice on the streets. Like you would see ghost cars where they had taken people or whatever. You could like, feel ’em on the streets. And so you walk around, you walk around the same streets now, and it’s just birds and kids playing and you’re just like, did that, was that real? Brett: There, there was a tow truck driver that was interviewed who had taken it upon himself to tow those ghost cars for free back to their origin. Um, and just like leave them for people. Jeff: at least, or he would take them in and not charge if you came in for them. And it’s, and that’s just it. Everybody, everybody. It was incredible. It was incredible. Christina: It’s crazy. Jeff: Yeah. All Christina: I hope, I genuinely hope that they’ve lost interest and, and have moved on to other things. Brett: Like Seattle. Christina: yeah. Well, I mean, Seattle is obviously a very different situation and, and that had a, a longstanding, I think, impact. Um, and, and I, I, I. I’ve said this, I said this at the time, people who made that really bad were the [00:19:00] activists who came in outside the so-called activists and putting that in quotation marks who came in, who didn’t even live in the city and agitated things and made things way worse than, than they, than it should have been. Um, but yeah, but I hope that it’s like Seattle, that it just kind of falls like the, the government doesn’t come back and, and continue this, you know, reign of terror. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Surgery And Withdrawal Christina: Um, well, I’ll, I’ll be quick. So I, I had surgery since I guess the last time I was on, Jeff: Sure did. Christina: that went well. Um, the surgery itself, I’m still in some pain, um, in my shoulder after the surgery, uh, which was not like you were fi fixing my cervical spine. But, um, they, uh, I guess however it worked, like I, I think as muscular, um, I, I’ve been going to to to PT for the last few weeks. Um, but I still having some, some shoulder pain. That’s, that’s getting better. Um, the hardest thing was actually some of the medication stuff. So [00:20:00] I, uh, gabapentin, um, I know it’s a lifesaver for a lot of people. I don’t have a good reaction to it. Like I’m one of those people. Like, it, it a, it makes me feel kind of loopy. I don’t like it. B it’s very difficult for me to sleep on it. Um, which, which is a problem and, you know, but, but the big thing is it just kind of makes me like, feel like I’m not kind of in my own head. Like I feel like, don’t know, like, um, altered on it. I, I would say. And so I went off they gabapentin and no one told me, and I am gonna put this as a PSA out there. ’cause I know a lot of people take it. Do not go off of that cold Turkey. Jeff: mm. Christina: They didn’t tell me that. Um, which someone should have, but no one told me that. And it can actually cause seizures if you do other things. But in my case, the real thing was that I had withdrawal. That was some of the worst withdrawal I’ve ever had. In my life ever. And, um, it like awful, like awful, awful, awful to the point that to go off the Gabapentin and they had me on like a, a decent dosage. It [00:21:00] took me a month because I had to keep going basically down like one pill like every week to step down. And, but I mean, I was getting, you know, like, like hot and cold sweats, you know, like feeling like my teeth were gnashing, you know, like nauseous, just like awful, awful stuff. So it took me, you know, a month to go off of that. I had to extend my medical leave in part because of the medication withdrawal stuff, because I was like, I can’t go back to work if I’m gonna be like, still dealing with, with medication bullshit. Um, so, um, that was actually, you know, in some ways like more, uh, of an issue than like recovering from the surgery itself, which was major. Like I, I tried to kind of downplay like what it was, but it was, it was major surgery and um. Um, I’m glad that it’s over. So, you know, onwards and upwards. I’m, I’ve been back at work for a couple weeks. Um, still kind of settling in on that, but, uh, but yeah. Brett: That [00:22:00] withdrawal sounds terrible. Usually you have to do opiates to get that kind of fun. Christina: Yeah, well that was the thing. I saw somebody on, I read it, which of course is anecdotal. I don’t usually look for this stuff, but sometimes you just wanna feel like, okay, is it, is it common for me to have this withdrawal or not? And somebody, and one of the subreddits was like, this was worse than coming off of heroin and I in a jail cell, and I should know because I’ve done that. And I was like, okay, I, I’m not going to equate it at that level, you know, for, for me. But it was definitely like that bad. It was, let me put it this way, it was bad enough that at first I thought. It was the opiate withdrawal because I, they gave me some, some oxy, um, um, contin. Um, and then the doctor was like, no, that’s not a high enough dosage. This is, you know, um, it, it, it probably was gabapentin and, and it, it. What pissed me off is that one of the physician’s assistants or whatever, when I’m telling like my doctor about this, I’m like, okay, if I need another nerve drug, then we need to find something [00:23:00] else. I can go on select so I can go on, you know, something else. But, but I, I clearly can’t stay on this. A, they kind of gaslit me because I’m a woman and obviously my pain and my symptoms can’t be real. So that’s like number one. And that’s just a fact. I don’t care if you’re a male or female doctor, they don’t take you seriously. I’ve complained about that before. Um, b like she had the nerves to say, she was like, well, you know, if the withdrawal is that bad, then why don’t you just stay on the medic medication? It’s not that it, it, it, it’s fine. I’m like, no, it’s not fine. It makes me feel altered. You’re telling me that it’s for nerve pain, that my nerve pain should be fixed if my nerve pain isn’t fixed and if I need something for nerve stuff, then that’s one thing and we could maybe look at an alternative, something that doesn’t make me feel loopy and lets me sleep. But if your suggestion is, oh, to avoid the bad withdrawal, just stay on the drug. I’m sorry, what the fuck are we doing? Um, and, and then the doctor’s like, well, you know, we get this all the time. We never see side effects. And then I looked it up, you know, in the actual drug literature and no, there are side effects exactly like the ones I experienced. So I was like, I recognize that. [00:24:00] I always am usually that like one percentile person who gets like the weird side effect. Like, that’s who I am. I get that. But Brett: crazy. I’ve, I’ve gone off of gabapentin. It sucks. I You’re not crazy at all. Christina: yeah. But, but it just, it just was frustrating to me that like the, the suggestions like, we’ll just stay on it. It’s like, no, like that’s, that’s, that’s not actually gonna be a thing anyway, but onward and upward. Jeff: Yeah. Wow. I’m glad you’re through that. Like Christina: Yeah, me too. Me too. Okay. Sponsor One Skin Christina: Well, I know we have some other topics we wanna get to, but before we do that, um, let’s take a moment to talk about our sponsor of today’s episode One Skin. So, um, you know, I, I’ve gone through a number of different things with my skincare routine over the years. Some have been more effective than other. Um, you know, um, my skin kind of goes back and forth between being too oily and too dry. I’m kind of in a dry [00:25:00] phase right now, and, um, there are tons of products out there that, that promise results. And then you, you get them in the, and they’re, they don’t necessarily work. So, uh, I wanna talk to you about One Skin, which was founded by scientists, and it’s dedicated to longevity. And, um, the, the brand is actually committed to being real science over marketing hype. And so, uh. What they wind up. Uh, what, how, how this works is that they use OSO uh, zero one, which is a proprietary peptide, which is designed to help deactivate the damaged cells that contribute to aging skin. And, um, I’ve been using one skin, um, for a little bit, and I, I’m, I’m liking it. I like how it makes my face feel. Um, I like, um, the fact that, uh, it’s. You know, what the peptides are supposed to do is help basically, uh, support collagen, uh, uh, of production and, and, and strengthening the skin barrier. Um, I’m not alone. There are over 10,005 star reviews and there’s validation from clinical studies and, and it’s making a name for itself in the skincare industry.[00:26:00] So if you are interested in trying one skin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code Overtired at one skin.co/ Overtired. That’s 15% off at one skin. Do co slash Overtired and use that code Overtired. So thank you one skin for supporting our show and check them out. Brett: Awesome. Terminal Widget Reveal Brett: Do you guys, can I tell you about terminal widget? Jeff: Terminal widget. Yes. Set it up. Terminal widget. Brett Terpstra. What’s Brett: so I, I, I wanted, I had scripts running in the background and I wanted a quick way to check them and I thought it should be easy to put. Script output into a, like a widget on the desktop. And I could not find anything that actually worked. Like Shellfish has a widget, but it, it takes minutes to update and it’s flaky and, and the other apps out there [00:27:00] did not work for me. So I thought I would build my own. So I think I started it a month ago. Um, I built a, just something for, you can run a terminal command and update a progress bar or an image or, uh, like sparkline text or just straight up text output from your. Terminal, all kinds of charts and everything, and, and it updates instantly on your desktop, uh, with like a 0.5 to one second delay, uh, which I wasn’t able to find anywhere else. I had to like, use JSON payloads and like basically a cloud kit watcher, um, cloud kit because I did also port it to iOS. And, um, so I can run one command in my terminal or from a script in the background and have my iPhone and my desktop update with progress. Um, I am working [00:28:00] on a watch version of it that is not, I, I have it working in the app, but I wanna make it so it works as a complication. Um, that’s gonna take a little more doing, uh, but this morning and yesterday I spent working on. The Apple script and shortcuts interfaces for it. And I hate designing Apple Script dictionaries, uh, because there’s no, like, there’s no standard for like terminology and there’s no like golden way to do it. And I always end up messing it up even when I do have a plan. This time I think I actually succeeded in building out a dictionary that makes semantic sense and is somewhat. Predictable if you’ve ever written Apples script before, but I also added all of the widgets can be controlled from shortcuts. You just drag in like a chart widget into your shortcut and pass in like a value or like a, a chart of values. It can [00:29:00] do matrices and sign waves and, and line grass and bar charts, and it’s pretty nuts. You can check it out. It’s not available yet, but all of the documentation and all of the screenshots are at Terminal widget app. Um, and I am, I’m pretty impressed with myself and Christina: yeah. Brett: that’s what I’ve been working on while waiting for Mark III to make it through app store reviews so I can finally publish that. I, my latest rejection first, I got rejected, like a couple legitimate. Uh, concerns, but then I had a CLI that I wrote that was embedded in the app bundle and there was an option to create a sim link in your, in your terminal to use the CLI. And this was just a convenience method for like, you give it command line flags and it converts it into URL handlers and they rejected me for Christina: [00:30:00] I was gonna say, I was gonna say, they don’t let you do that. Like what I’ve seen with other apps do is usually there’s like a, um, in the app store is that usually you have to download a helper to install the CL. Brett: right. So what I did, uh, to get past the rejection was completely rip out the binary from the bundle. Uh, if you go to the install cli CLI tool menu item, it simply takes you to a webpage where there’s a, a notarized signed PKG file, or you can install from Homebrew, but it’s completely separate from the app store. And the last rejection said that I was requiring users to download an external app in order to use the app. Which is ridiculous on its face. Like it’s, it’s a convenience method. In no way do you need to download it. Um, there’s no requirement. In fact, it’s almost buried that you would even want it. Um, [00:31:00] and so I argued with the reviewer for a couple days ’cause they were replying like once a day. Um, and then they told me I had to go through a re uh, the appeal process. So I submitted an appeal at four 50 this morning. We’ll see how long that takes now. But in the meantime, terminal Widget is keeping me sane. I’m having a lot of fun with that. Widgets And Visualizations Jeff: I have some terminal widget questions. I’m looking at the site right now. Um, so talk to me about, um, talk to us about your, your initial use case, like was, which you’ve kind of described already, which is you just wanted to be able to check on these scripts Brett: Yeah. I just wanted a progress Jeff: But then Brett Terpstra kicks in ’cause like I just wanted a progress bar and now I’m looking at all the flags and everything else that you could have. You know, I’m curious like of all of the options that are in there, I want you to just share something that might not be intuitive or might not guess you can do. And then I’m curious of like if you have something you’re like, and what I [00:32:00] really want it to be able to do is. Brett: So you can pass it up to a hundred numbers, like a, a list of space or canvas, separated numbers that you can output from whatever script you’re developing. And you can have it, uh, output a sine wave or a um, uh, a waveform. I like the waveform visualization for it. And so you can get like pretty cool visualizations out of. Tabular data basically. And I also just added, um, tabular, like you can, you can give it a CSV file and it’ll generate a table for you. And it really only works well on like the large widget size. Um, but on both, on both iOS and Mac, uh, the tables look pretty good. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. I, I have a, I have a nerdy, uh, well, but less nerdy question. [00:33:00] Um, on the Terminal WIT app website, um, you have like a, a video of a, like, you know, showing off like, um, you know, your, your, your terminal app open and, um, the, the text being typed out. What did you use to create that? Did you use a remotion or did you use something else to generate that Brett: I scripted that, um, I, I wrote if there’s a helper Christina: charm or something? Brett: No, Christina: Okay. Brett: I, it’s a helper. It’s a helper script that it, it clears the screen and then it takes a table of commands and it types the command out with like a jitter delay. So it looks somewhat natural, like typing. And then it actually runs the command in the background. And then once the command’s finished, it clears the screen and does the same thing with the next one. Um, so I can just feed it like a, a, uh, a file with all the commands. I wanna run one per line. Um, and it just types them out and executes them. Jeff: That’s awesome. Christina: Cool. Brett: I know, [00:34:00] like I looked into like using like as, as as cinema. Um, and it just to get that kind of really. Smooth, rapid typing out of it, uh, without, you know, all the backspace and everything. I, it was, I found it difficult to program it to, to code it. And by the time I had it figured out, I figured I should just write my own script for it. Christina: Yeah. There’s, um, there, there’s a, a. Service called Remotion, which can do some of that sort of graphical work, which is what I thought you might’ve used at first. Um, charm has a thing called VHS, which is basically like a CLI home home recorder, which is pretty cool. Um, and I’ve used that before, but yeah, I was just kind of curious, um, what you did, but yeah, you just built your own. That’s awesome. Very cool. Release Plans And Review Christina: Um, now for your, your, when do you think like, because I, I noticed that you have like for for blog book and for terminal widget, you have like coming soon. Is that like, ’cause [00:35:00] you’re still kind of like working on stuff or, um, are you going through review hell with those as well? Brett: I haven’t even tried getting either of those reviewed. Um, blog book I is approved for test flight, um, and anyone who wants in on that can just contact me. It is getting the slowest development out of all my projects right now just because it is, it’s a more niche app that I don’t think is gonna make a ton of money. But, um, mark III is where most of my effort is going. Then I’m working on porting mark three’s, uh, store kit stuff into NV Ultra, and then I can focus on trying to usher terminal widget through app review. Um, I have a feeling that’s going to go very poorly and I may end up just releasing outside the app store, but because it has an iOS Christina: I was gonna say with the iOS component is the hard part. Brett: I kind of have to, so we’ll see what happens. Christina: Yeah. [00:36:00] ’cause I was gonna say, ’cause like, I mean I guess what you could do is if you did something for the iOS F would make it different though. Like if it’s just, ’cause I’m sure it has, it’s working out. It’s pretty much just remote instance that’s showing Brett: No, no, it’s got, it’s a, Christina: you, you built in your own terminal emulator into it. Brett: no, there’s no, no, no, no, no, no. There’s no terminal in this app at all. Like, you use it from whatever terminal or from shortcuts. Um, so it’s all native widgets on both. Christina: right. I was just saying in terms of the app store thing, like, I guess like if since there’s not a native terminal on, on iOS, it’s, I’m assuming that it’s, it’s a remote widget is what I was trying to get at. Brett: Essentially, yes. But if you write a shortcut on iOS that updates the widget, it updates both iOS and Mac os. So it is usable entirely. You could just buy it for iOS and, and it would be a functional app. Christina: okay. Okay. Universal Bundle Pricing Brett: But I do intend, I hope [00:37:00] to sell it as one universal bundle. So you pay like 9 99 and you get the iOS, the Mac, and the watch app without having to buy for every platform separately. Um, I just don’t see it being like such a valuable app that it’s worth making people go through that rigamarole. Christina: right. No, I was just trying to think. Brett: and everyone I’ve shown it to so far has been excited about it and the most common response I get is I will buy this as soon as I figure out what I would use it for. I’m like, yeah, okay. Jeff: Okay, fine. Awesome. AI Boosts Mark II Sales Jeff: And can you talk about how, because the whole world now works in markdown marked, has gotten a bump because I think that’s an amazing story. Brett: Well, yeah, it was. was a few months ago now, maybe six months. Um, my sales just started increasing and I was looking everywhere through all my traffic and all my logs [00:38:00] to figure out where this, where these people were coming from. Um, and it was eventually pointed out to me that if you ask any agent, any AI agent what you should use to view markdown, um, they would point you to Mark two. And it was now, for the last four months, five months, it’s been doing five times the sales year over year. What it was doing, Jeff: How close is it to the highest it ever was? Brett: um, the highest it ever was was actually when it was only 2 99. And Gruber wrote about it. Uh, back in this is like 2000. This was over a decade ago. And, um, back when, like one tweet from Gruber meant like success and that I made that year, I made almost a hundred thousand dollars on it.[00:39:00] Um, this is nowhere near that. This is doing like Jeff: But it’s a highly unexpected bump, right? Like in a delightful, delightful bump. Brett: yeah. It’s doing, it’s doing without even releasing Mark iii, I’m making about half of my former salary off of it. Jeff: Nice. I’m happy for you. Leaving Oracle Behind Brett: Also, uh, one year, um, in two days I’ll be one year out of Oracle and I quite happy about it. Jeff: that’s great. I was wondering about that, Brett: I don’t miss my corporate job. I miss, I miss some aspects, health insurance, paychecks, things like that. But Jeff: that aren’t at all about the content of the job, right? Brett: Well, like that stuff has never mattered all that much to me if I’m happy doing the work. And I really wasn’t happy doing the work. Christina: Well, that’s, that’s the thing. I’m glad that you’re, I’m glad things have been going well. I’m glad that, that the, the agents have, uh, been telling everybody about Mark two. Hopefully they will also tell them [00:40:00] about Mark three. Um. Ninety Hour Workweeks Brett: My, my dentist was doing was doing small talk with me, and he knows I’m a app developer and he asked me, so how many hours a week do you work? And I happen to know the answer because I had just read my timing app report for last week and I said, 90. And he said, oh wow. How much do you make? And he’s like, if you don’t mind me asking. So I told him and uh, it saying it out loud, it’s basically like 20 bucks an hour I get paid. And like, it’s not nothing, but once these apps are out and I can sit back and just make some passive income off of it, I will, I’ll be much Jeff: So it’s 90 because you’re, you’re developing multiple things right now and, and you love it. Brett: I’m pretty much, I’m pretty much on my machine all day except for like an hour for [00:41:00] like getting out, exercising, getting on my recumbent bicycle and an hour for eating. Um, Jeff: Is it time for you to get a trike? I’m serious. Brett: I don’t, I don’t know, I, I actually want to try just getting back on a regular bicycle. Jeff: Hmm. Brett: Um, but I, yeah, like a recumbent tricycle, that’d be pretty awesome. Jeff: dad uses him. He actually just converted one to an to an E-bike. Plus it’s hot now ’cause of DTF St. Louis. Christina: right. Jeff: Awesome. Uh, is that it for your app development because wow, that’s like, uh, quite a, quite a deal. You got anything else in the cooker? Brett: Well, like we talked about blog book. Right? Jeff: Yep. Brett: Okay. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I got. Jeff: Nice. Brett: that’s my big ones. NV Ultra Vaporware Woes Brett: NV Ultra is, um, literally only waiting on me to [00:42:00] get Mark three out and then NV Ultra will be out. And it is well passed a time when it would’ve been a smash hit. Um, when, when Nv, when NVL first started dying before, uh, before something like obsidian really Christina: I was gonna say, if sitting is unfortunately Brett: yeah, they obsidian and five or six other apps have really eaten up market share for, uh, NV Ultra. But it would be nice just to get it published. I have been talking about a replacement for NV for over a decade, and Jeff: Am I gonna get sued if I say this is not your fault. Brett: It’s, it’s not my fault, like none of them have been my fault. Like they’ve all fallen through on me. Um, but I think people don’t believe me anymore when I say it’s coming. In fact, it, in fact, if you ask an AI agent, they will tell you that MB Ultra is vaporware.[00:43:00] Christina: Well, Jeff: a lot ai. Christina: I mean, look at this point, even though yeah, it’s been in beta and you’ve had other things going on. I mean, like it, you know, again, it wasn’t your fault, but, but, but you know, we’ve all been in those situations where you’re like, it’s coming, it’s coming. Or this thing is like, at a certain point you’re like, okay. Like Brett: Yeah. Missing Collaborators Online Brett: Well that there was Bit Writer Christina: TechMate too. Brett: Bit Writer was one that preceded NV Ultra and I was working on that with David Halter, who was a co contributor on VT and. He disappeared. I don’t know if he died or what, but about years ago he just stopped replying to emails, disappeared off of Slack, disappeared from the internet. Just I, and I don’t ha I don’t know his next of kin. I don’t have anyone I can like ask, Hey, whatever happened to David. So if you’re out there, if you’re listening, I’d love to hear from you just to know you’re alive. Just to, just to [00:44:00] check in. Um, I’ve actually had a few people disappear over the last couple months that ha it’s been disconcert when, when you’re used to hearing from someone at least, you know, once a week even. But some of these people were like every day, um, I. Jeff: from them, meaning seeing them somewhere or corresponding or. Brett: Uh, online. These are, these are people I only know online. So like seeing them on Macedon or Facebook or getting emails or text messages from them. Um, a couple of them were in their eighties or nineties, and so it’s not, Jeff: That might be your problem. Brett: it, it’s not out of the realm of the possibility that they have passed on. Um, but some of them were younger than me and one of them has come back after two weeks of messaging, like every other day, like, Hey, are you okay? Haven’t heard from you. Um, finally they’re like, oh, yeah, I’m here. [00:45:00] And offered no explanation for where they’d been or why they went silent, but I didn’t pry either. So. Dan Peterson Secret App Jeff: What is your project with Dan Peterson? That’s on our, our list. Brett: I don’t know if I’m allowed to say a lot about it, but I’ve been working. Dan Peterson is one, the original designer of one password and worked with them for like 20 years before he struck out on his own. And we’ve teamed up, we’re working on a couple things, but one is a a, an IO iOS app that he has put in. I, I don’t even know how many hours into the design of it, like 3D modeling, spline rendering, and um, and then we ported it into an iOS interface. And it is gorgeous. It, it will it when, when it gets to market, which we’re hoping to have it in [00:46:00] testate in time for Max stock in July. Um, it’ll be the best looking app I’ve ever been a part of. It’s gonna be so cool. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: Busy time. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: It’s Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: What else do we got? I mean, Brett, you showed up with a big list. The Pit TV Complaints Christina: I was gonna, is anybody watching anything? Uh, good on TV or rewatching anything? Jeff: I have a serious complaint to put into the world, so I’ve avoided the pit for a long time. Uh, just ’cause I’m, I don’t, I’m not a huge like yeah, Brett: drama. Jeff: it is great. Except are there two separate writing teams for the stars and staff and the people that come in as patients? Because the writing for the people that come in patients is. Awful. They acting sometimes too. Sometimes there’s some people that sell it. I’m only through season one, uh, but I was like, I have been yelling at the tv, uh, about this [00:47:00] for some time. Um, besides also yelling at the TV for the point at which, um, our young friend with a w as a last name Whitaker, who, uh, gets blood all over his face and then they don’t actually immediately clean it up. Um, uh, so I yell at the screen and I like the show, but I yell. I haven’t had a TV show that I’m like, oh, for fuck’s sake now. I mean, I can handle that in The Walking Dead. I can handle that in that kind of movie. But in the ER thing I’m like, come on, you can’t get a writer to handle the patients. I don’t understand. You’ve got an incredible cast, like an incredible cast. Brett: It’s actually all ad-libbed. Jeff: all ad-libs, like the clown. There’s a clown, I won’t give it up, but there’s a, there’s a clown that has been through a mass event and he’s in the, uh, he’s in the ER with his clown makeup on still, and some blood going down his face and at some point he looks around and he goes, what a circus. I just think they, I think, I don’t understand. This confuses me very much [00:48:00] in TV shows when you’re like, okay, you’ve got a great writing team, but clearly you have a separate writing team that is doing just this little job that is actually quite important. So that’s my complaint about the pit. Otherwise, I like it quite a bit. I’m very excited to start season two, probably this weekend. Christina: it’s a good season. It’s a good season. So, yeah, ’cause, because, because I, I, I, um, it, it ended last week and I’m, I’m a big fan of the pit. I will say this, the pit fandom is insane and not in a good way. Like these are people who don’t understand how to watch television shows and don’t understand. Like how television shows work, and, and then also become very entitled about like, how, like their vision of the characters and things should be on a level. Like the last time I’ve seen it, it it’s the same, it’s similar with heated rivalry, but it’s somehow worse because this isn’t like a genre show like that. It’s like low quality for like, you know, middle aged like white women, um, in the suburbs. Um, who, who just like to see two, two hockey players. [00:49:00] You know? Fuck. Um, like, like the pit is actually like, I’m not gonna call it Prestige TV because it’s not er level, but it’s a very good show and it’s extremely well acted. And I think the writing, um, I, I think make a good point about the, uh, the patients not getting as good of storylines as the doctors. But, um, Jeff: no. I don’t need storylines. I Christina: no, I I mean the Jeff: words they Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s, that, that, that that’s what I mean, like, like that, that, that, that I, I, I hear, I hear your Jeff: Because where there’s a patient storyline, those are almost exclusively great. Christina: Yeah, it, so you’re more talking about like, like, like the kind of the background characters, like, kind of like the, the, the one-offs. Yeah, I think, I think that’s fair. Well, a lot of the writing staff and like executive producers are doctors or people who have like, you know, worked, um, extensively in healthcare. And so I, I, I wonder if like, that’s kind of part of it, um, where Brett: they’re really good at writing the doctor’s parts. They’re not so good at Jeff: so good. Oh my God, so Christina: so good at doing the doctor’s parts and, and the procedures. Like they wanna be medically [00:50:00] accurate and like they really, they really are committed to that. There are, um, there are a couple of, I’m trying to think, um, the, the Whitaker thing, I think that was just, I enjoyed that myself. Like the fact that he’s always getting blood Jeff: Oh, I loved the bit, I just couldn’t believe that. I couldn’t believe that through quite, you know, a couple of different bits after that. The blood’s still on his face. I’m like, there has to be a protocol to get blood off your face. Christina: No, there definitely has to be, but I mean, part also one of the running gags first season two. And, and sorry for spoilers, for anyone who hasn’t watched the pit Jeff: Wait, I’m gonna close my ears. Okay. Go ahead. Wave when you’re done. Christina: Rob Robbie can’t pee. And, uh, this wasn’t a real spoiler, but like, but one of the things is like, you know, Robbie’s never able to like, go to the bathroom. Like he can never find a way to pee. So Jeff: I’m back. Brett: you’re safe now. Jeff: I’m back. Christina: you, you’re safe. And I didn’t spoil anything. I was ER Nostalgia and Cast Jeff: The other thing I’ll say about the pit that surprised I did not watch ER and not ’cause out of bad attitude. Uh, it was just a point in my life when I wasn’t watching a lot of tv. Um, I also didn’t realize until I was [00:51:00] like five episodes in that Noah Wiley was a big character in er. I think that’s really cool. Um, Christina: Okay. Okay. I, I understand you weren’t watching TV then, but how did you not realize that Noah Wiley was Jeff: I didn’t know Noah Wiley’s name. Like I, this is just not, I don’t hold names of people. I, you know, I also, on the albums, I love that. I don’t remember song, I don’t know song titles half the time. Um, so I don’t mind You can, you can be very disappointed and express it. And I will accept it. I will receive it. Christina: No, I’m just shocked Jeff: to be better. Christina: because I, I mean, ’cause because I was like 10 years old when ER came out and like, I don’t know, like they were like, that was the number one show on television Jeff: Totally. And I mean, Clooney, come on. I know Clooney. Christina: course Clooney, but, but like, but it was Clooney. It was, but but like the, the, the, the, the original, it was Clooney, it was uh, uh, Sherry Stringfeld, it was um, um, uh, Eric Lesal. It was Juliana Margolis, it was Noah Wiley, and it was Anthony Edwards. So like, Jeff: Oh, my favorite Timber Christina: and I was gonna say ironically going into when er came out, like the, the name was Anthony [00:52:00] Edwards, like, he was like number one on the call sheet, right? Like Clooney I think was like four. Um, and, and then, and then Clooney because he’s a good guy, like blew the fuck up and then still did them a solid and did like a full freaking five years on that show, Jeff: Yeah, which is awesome. Christina: he did not, David, David Caruso, it like David Caruso, who famously like had one, you know, big season of NYPD Blue fucks off to go do a movie career. The movie career implodes, there’s a clause in his contract because A, b, C was so furious about how the way he quit NYPD Blue, that they were like, okay, well you can’t do any television for x number of years. And then his movie career dies and then he has to like come like hat in hand to like CSI Miami. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Well I love the pit and this thing that surprised me is the thing I always stayed away from is like I can handle gore in almost every context except real life. And so like I can do all the gore of the Walking Dead. I can do all the gore of Game of Thrones or something, but like, I was like, I don’t know if I want, [00:53:00] yeah. Gore. I love it. I mean, I love it. ’cause I’m fascinated. I’m just fascinated. I’m like, oh, that’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, right. Like you just snip the fingertip off. That’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, Christina: no, Jeff: the first Christina: they show some of the stuff, Jeff: yeah, the first half. I did this every time I covered my face whenever it was like that. And then all of a sudden I could handle it. And I was like, this is fascinating. This is totally Christina: What episode are you, are you up to? How many do you Jeff: I actually, I only have 15 left. I have the last episode left. Um, and unfortunately, like we’ve had, like my brother’s, not unfortunately, my brother’s been, we had stuff every night until late for like three or four days. And I’m so ready to watch that thing. And now, now my wife’s going outta town, so I’m not sure we’ll even see it for another week. It’s making me crazy. Brett: are you watching it together? And you have to wait for her. Jeff: Yeah. Well, and we, and, and sometimes it’s easy for us to find a show together and sometimes there’s just a long dry spell. And so it’s also just like nice. It’s just nice to have a show together always. Um, and so it’s the combination of like, that’s just nice to do and I’m right at the end and I’m just ready to Christina: And you just wanna do that together? [00:54:00] Yeah, no, it makes sense. Season Two and Other Shows Christina: Um, I, I’m, I’m curious to see what you’ll think of season two. Um, I, I, um, it’s, it’s different in some ways. It doesn’t have like the, the, I’m not spoiling anything, but like, it doesn’t have like a big like, catalyzing event, like, like season one does. Um, but I still think it’s, it’s really good TV and, uh, yeah, definitely one of my favorite shows, um, hacks is Back for its final season. That’s definitely one of my favorite Brett: That Jeff: I never Brett: good. I, I finished season one. Um, I think there’s three seasons or is there more? Christina: This, it is now in its fifth season. Yeah. Brett: Okay. Yeah. I, I finished season one and then kind of forgot about it, and then I just saw some trailers for the new season and thought, oh, I should get back into this. It looks, it looks like it, it, it looks like it did well, um, Christina: No, I mean, shrinking. Yeah. Brett: I was gonna say, the new season of shrinking is really good too. Christina: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um, well, well, uh, bill Lawrence is, is, uh, who created that and he created Scrubs and Spin City and [00:55:00] some other things. Like he’s, he’s really, really, um, good. He also did Rooster, which is now on HBO Max. Um, but, oh, the Scrubs Revival. Speaking of, of new shows, I don’t know if it’s gonna get like renewed because it hasn’t been renewed yet. And so I’m a little bit concerned that it hasn’t been renewed yet, and I only did nine episodes for the first season. But the, the Scrubs reboot, revival, whatever you wanna call it, and I say this is somebody who was a huge scrub fan. I, I don’t consider the, the final season to be scrubs like that. It is not part of Canon to me. Like, I feel like that, that, that wasn’t it, but I thought they actually did an amazing job, um, with the, with the reboot. Like I actually. And, and it was hard for them too because John c McGinley is on Rooster and, um, uh, Judy Reyes is on, um, uh, high Potential. And, um, so, you know, the only like, you know, main characters from the original that they have back in every single episode [00:56:00] are, um, uh, Elliot, JD and Turk. Um, but, uh, and then, and then you see, you know, kind of like, like Carla just isn’t in the office sometimes, but she has some guest appearances. Um, but they actually managed to, to do this, they managed to do like a next generation type of story, but still focused on like the main characters you love, but still kind of bring in like new younger doctors in like a way that I’m genuinely really impressed with how they did it. And, and like it kept the heart and kind of the, the feel of the original, like I, it, it was, I was very, very impressed that they were able to recapture. What made that show so good, um, for, its, I guess they’re calling it its 10th season, but, um, I, I really hope that it comes back because that’s a really good show. Brett: Speaking of reboots, um, they’re rebooting, um, Malcolm in the middle, Jeff: I Christina: Yes, they did. [00:57:00] Yeah. They did a four episode thing. Brett: but what I saw an, I saw Hot ones versus with, um, uh, Frankie Muni and whatever. How Christina: Yeah. Brian Cranston. Who, Brian Cranston. Who, who was, who was the, the father of, of, of Mel King on the pit. Brett: Oh, there you go. Jeff: is so cool. I love her so much. Brett: but anyway, they’re talking about why Dewey wouldn’t come back and basically he was like, I haven’t acted since I was nine. He’s like, he is busy. He is got a life Christina: He’s in grad school, like he went to Harvard and stuff like, like, he’s like, uh, I, which I, I love. And I’m like, okay. You know, I mean, I would’ve loved to see Joey too, but I don’t blame him for being like, no. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: neither, neither did the other actors, I don’t think. I think, uh, it, it wasn’t necessary to Christina: no, I was gonna say he wasn’t because Brett: the Yeah, Christina: mean, look, they were able to do Fuller House without the Olson [00:58:00] twins who were a much bigger part of that show Jeff: Fuller Christina: ever was. And, and I, I, I’m not even like defending Fuller house. Like it was, it was fine. It was whatever. But like, even that, you were like, there were enough characters where you’re like, okay, so, so Michelle isn’t here. And that would’ve been weird, to be honest. I don’t think that, like I know that everybody would’ve loved having the cameo, but it’s like, how in the hell are you gonna have the Olson twins, like as adults, even in a cameo on Fuller House without just completely taking you out of the whole thing. You know what I mean? Brett: Yeah. Christina: Like, it just, it just wouldn’t be possible. But Gratitude App Picks Brett: we try to fit in a gude before Jeff: Should we grab, Christina: yeah. Let’s do a gratitude. Brett: Um, I can kick it off. I got one I’m excited about. Um, found this app called Bezel. Um, I needed to do iOS screenshots and I needed to do iOS recordings, and I played around with using Screen flow and screen Studio and Camtasia, and I didn’t like [00:59:00] any of the ways that they recorded iOS movies. And then I found Bezel and I mean, c So screen recording built into iOS, in my opinion, is better than any of the like screen casting apps can do. Um, but bezel, if you, if you hard co hardwire your phone to your computer and turn on screen, mirroring it can record. Perfect. Um. iOS recordings, and it’s really good at just taking screenshots with a single key key command. You get a screenshot with a bezel like the outline of the phone and a desktop background behind it. So I can just hit command S as I like, move through my phone, uh, and then my right hand on my phone, my left hand on my keyboard, and I can get a dozen iOS screenshots in five minutes, and they’re ready to go, like ready to [01:00:00] publish. It’s really nice. Jeff: That’s really awesome. I’m gonna try that. Christina: Same, same. Do you have one Brett, or do you want me to, or uh, Jeff do or do you want me to go. AI Tools and Claude Code Jeff: Uh, I’m happy to go. Um, so this is, this is, uh, an easy one in a way, but I, I wanna be specific about what’s been so useful. So I’ve been using cloud code and vs code forever. I mean for the last, I’d say two or three months. ’cause I’ve got really, really deep into using cloud code actually for qualitative work. Um, but also a totally bananas project I built that has both a. Physical component and a heavy duty code component, which I’ll talk about sometime. Um, but, um, I, and I’ve used the desktop app for cowork and for like just the standard chat and I’ve loved that, but I never used it for cloud code until this latest update, which added like a really amazing interface for cloud code. Um, which is kind of my gratitude is that tab of the desktop app, which like, when you open it up, it gives you like just an awesome little like, work summary of like comedy sessions [01:01:00] you’ve had, how many total tokens you’ve used, like overall the last 30 days, the last seven days, what your peak hour is your longest streak. It has the like GitHub, like little chart that fills in. Um, and, uh, and, and that’s like been really cool to see. Um, and you can also see your usage of various models. It’s just a nice little thing that pops up. And then when you’re actually working, it’s really amazing because you can pull up these sidebars that have like diffs or like a preview or you can just get a terminal open in there. Um, and I have. I have loved that. I still like feel more at home in the VS.

Proxmox to FreeBSD, Hidden values of CPU-Intensive Compression, Cells for NetBSD, OpenBSD 7.8 on RPIs, and more... NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap and the BSDNow Patreon Headlines From Proxmox to FreeBSD and Sylve in Our Office Lab The Hidden Value of CPU-Intensive Compression on Modern Hardware News Roundup Cells for NetBSD – Kernel Enforced Jail Like Isolation with User Friendly Operations OpenBSD 7.8 on Raspberry Pi Zero 2W OpenSSH 10.3/10.3p1 released I'm just the Barista Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Tim - Are OCI Images useful for Freebsd.md Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv Join us and other BSD Fans in our BSD Now Telegram channel

Today, we check in a year after the first Unsupervised Learning x Latent Space Crossover special to discuss everything that has changed (there is a lot) in the world of AI. This episode was recorded just after AIE Europe, but before the Cursor-xAI deal.Unsupervised Learning is a podcast that interviews the sharpest minds in AI about what's real today, what will be real in the future and what it means for businesses and the world - helping builders, researchers and founders deconstruct and understand the biggest breakthroughs.Thanks to Jacob and the UL production team for hosting and editing this!Jacob Effron* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobeffron/* X: https://x.com/jacobeffronFull Episode on Their YouTubeWe discuss:* swyx's view from the center of the AI engineering zeitgeist: OpenClaw, harness engineering, context engineering, evals, observability, GPUs, multimodality, and why conference tracks now reveal what matters most in AI* Whether AI infrastructure has finally stabilized: why “skills” may be the minimal viable packaging format for agents, why infra companies have had to reinvent themselves every year, and why application companies have had an easier time surviving model volatility* The vertical vs. horizontal AI startup debate: why application companies can act as the outsourced AI team for enterprises, why some horizontal companies still matter, and why sandboxes may be the clearest reinvention of classic cloud infrastructure for the AI era* The “agent lab” playbook: starting with frontier models, specializing for your domain, then training your own models once you have enough data, workload, and user behavior to justify the cost and latency savings* Why domain-specific model training is real, not just marketing: how companies like Cursor and Cognition can get users to choose their in-house models, and why search, domain specialization, and distillation are becoming more important* Open models, custom chips, and alternative inference infrastructure: why swyx has turned more bullish on open source, why non-NVIDIA hardware is suddenly getting real attention, and why every 10x speedup can unlock new product experiences* What it means to sell to agents instead of humans: why agent experience may mostly just be good developer experience by another name, why APIs and docs matter more than ever, and how pretraining-data incumbents are compounding advantages in an agent-first world* Why memory and personalization may become the next big wedge: today's models mostly reward frequency of mentions, but in the future, swyx expects product choice to be shaped much more by personalized memory systems* The state of the AI coding wars: why coding has become one of the largest and fastest-growing categories in AI, how Anthropic, OpenAI, Cursor, and Cognition have all ridden the wave, and why the category may still have more room to run* Capability exploration vs. efficiency: why the industry is still in a token-maxing, experiment-heavy phase where people are rewarded for spending more rather than less* Claude Code vs. Codex and the strange stickiness of coding products: why first magical product experiences may matter more than expected, and why the bigger mystery may be why only a few names have emerged as real winners so far* What the end state of the coding market might look like: two major players, a longer tail of niche products, and possible disruption if Microsoft, Mistral, xAI, or the Chinese labs push harder into coding* Where application companies still have room against the labs: why frontier labs are trying to expand into verticals like finance and healthcare, but still leave space for focused companies that own the workflow and the last mile* Why coding may be a preview of every other AI market: the first category to truly go parabolic, the clearest example of foundation model companies colliding with application companies, and a template for how future vertical AI markets may develop* Why AI valuations now feel unbounded: from billion-dollar ARR products built in a year to trillion-dollar market caps, swyx and Jacob unpack how the AI market has broken traditional startup intuitions about scale and durability* Consumer AI vs. coding AI: why ChatGPT's consumer category may have plateaued on frequency and product design, while coding continues to feel like a daily-use category with real momentum* The next product frontier beyond coding: consumer agents, computer use, and “coding agents breaking containment,” with swyx's thesis that 2025 was the year of coding agents and 2026 may be the year they begin to do everything else* Whether foundation models are really killing startup categories: why swyx is less worried for early founders, more worried for mid-size startups and traditional SaaS, and why building something ambitious may now be the best job interview for a frontier lab* AI vs. SaaS and the internal culture war around adoption: the tension between AI-native employees who want to rip out expensive software and skeptics who think quick AI-built replacements create fragile systems* Why traditional SaaS may be under real pressure: swyx's own experience spending six figures on event and sponsor management software, the temptation to rebuild it cheaply with AI, and the broader question of whether teams will trust custom AI-native replacements* Biosafety, security, and frontier model access: why swyx raised biosafety at a dinner with Anthropic's Mike Krieger, why Krieger argued security is the bigger issue, and what restricted model releases reveal about Anthropic vs. OpenAI* The era of giant models: why 10T+ parameter systems may only be a temporary rationing phase before bigger clusters arrive, why labs may increasingly keep their most powerful models private for distillation, and why scale alone no longer feels like a complete answer* Memory as the slowest scaling factor in AI: why context windows have improved far more slowly than people hoped, why million-token context still has not changed most real workflows, and why memory may be the key bottleneck for the next generation of systems* What swyx changed his mind on in the past year: becoming more bullish on open models, more convinced that the top tier of agent startups behaves very differently from the median AI company, and more optimistic about fine-tuning and specialized model adaptation* “Dark factories” and zero-human-review coding: the next frontier after zero human-written code, where models not only write the code but ship it without human review, forcing companies to rethink testing and verification from first principles* Why RL and post-training may matter more than people assumed: even if the resulting models get thrown out every few months, the data, workflows, and domain-specific improvements persist* Synthetic rubrics, Doctor GRPO, and multi-turn RL: why reinforcement learning is becoming much more domain-specific and multi-step than many people realize, opening the door to much deeper customization* The next frontier after coding: memory, personalization, and world models, including why swyx thinks world models matter not just for robotics or gaming, but for giving AI something closer to lived understanding* Fei-Fei Li, spatial intelligence, and the Good Will Hunting analogy: the idea that today's LLMs may know everything by reading it all, but still lack the lived experience that turns knowledge into a deeper kind of intelligenceTimestamps* 00:00:00 Intro preview: AI coding wars, startup pressure, and market structure* 00:00:28 Welcome to the Latent Space × Unsupervised Learning crossover* 00:01:17 What AI builders are focused on now: OpenClaw, harnesses, and infra* 00:04:33 Why AI infra is harder than apps, and where startups can still win* 00:06:39 Should companies train their own models?* 00:09:28 Open models, custom chips, and the new inference race* 00:11:25 Designing products for agents, not just humans* 00:16:49 The state of the AI coding wars in 2026* 00:19:27 Capability exploration, token-maxing, and why coding is going parabolic* 00:21:41 What the end state of the coding market could look like* 00:23:50 Where app companies still have room against the labs* 00:27:02 Why AI valuations and market swings feel unprecedented* 00:28:56 Consumer AI vs. coding AI, and why sticky products still matter* 00:32:28 What the next breakthrough product experience might be* 00:32:53 2026 thesis: coding agents break containment and eat the world* 00:35:27 Are foundation models wiping out startup categories?* 00:37:33 AI vs. SaaS, vibe coding, and internal team tensions* 00:40:01 Biosafety, security, and the politics of restricted model releases* 00:42:19 Giant models, compute constraints, and the limits of scale* 00:44:30 Memory as the real bottleneck in AI* 00:44:57 Why swyx changed his mind on open models* 00:47:44 Dark factories and the future of zero-human-review coding* 00:49:36 Why post-training and RL may matter more than people think* 00:51:50 Memory, world models, and the next frontier of intelligence* 00:53:54 The Good Will Hunting analogy for LLMs* 00:54:21 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] swyx: Isn't that crazy? That number is just mind boggling.[00:00:03] Jacob Effron: What is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:00:05] swyx: We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration. The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the same way that 2025 was a year coding agents 2026 is coding agents breaking containments to do everything else.[00:00:16] Jacob Effron: Do you worry about the foundation models just getting into a bunch of these startup categories?[00:00:21] swyx: Mid-size startups. Yes.[00:00:23] Jacob Effron: What do you think the end state of this market is[00:00:25] swyx: for the market structure to, to significantly change? There would be[00:00:28] Jacob Effron: today on unsupervised learning. We had a, a fun episode and what's really become an annual tradition, a crossover episode with our friends at Latent space.Swix and I sat down and we talked about everything happening in the AI ecosystem today. What we thought of the various changes at the model layer, what's happening in the infra world, the coding wars, and a bunch of other things. It's a ton of fun to do this with someone I really respect and another great podcaster in the game.Without further ado, here's our episode. Well switch. This is, uh, super fun to be back with another unsupervised learning, uh, latent space crossover episode.[00:01:02] swyx: Yeah,[00:01:02] Jacob Effron: I feel like a lot of places we could start, but you know, one thing I always find fascinating, uh, about the way you spend your time is you obviously are like at the epicenter of this engineering movement and community, and you run these events and conferences and put on these.Awesome talks and, and I think just have a great pulse on the zeitgeist of what's going on.[00:01:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:01:17] Jacob Effron: Maybe to, to start just what are the biggest topics people are thinking about right now?[00:01:21] swyx: Yeah, so I just came back from London, uh, where we did a IE Europe and we're doing roughly one per quarter now, which Yeah, you've[00:01:27] Jacob Effron: really up[00:01:27] swyx: the, hopefully[00:01:28] Jacob Effron: up the, up the pace.[00:01:29] swyx: It's trying. We're trying to match AI speed, youknow?[00:01:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah, exactly. The tops would be completely different, I imagine. Uh,[00:01:33] swyx: yeah. You know, I definitely curate the tracks, like you can see what I think. When you see the track list and the, the speakers that I invite, obviously Open Claw is like the story of the last four or five months, and then be, be just below that.I would consider harness engineering, context engineering to be two related topics in agents and rag. And then there's a long tail of Evergreen stuff like evals, observability, GPUs, uh, and uh, LM infra and just general, just in general. We also have other updates on like multimodality and, uh, generative media, let's call it.Um, but I definitely, the, the first three that I mentioned are top of mind people. Yeah.[00:02:13] Jacob Effron: I think harness is particular like, so interesting. Um, you know, there was this tweet from Harrison Chase, the, the lane chain, CEO, that, that caught my eye recently where he said, you know, it finally feels like we have stability, uh, around the infrastructure for, uh, you know, around ai.And I think what. He basically was implying his like, look over the past two, three years as a company at the epicenter of AI infrastructure, it was a bit like playing whack-a-mole, right? You were constantly moving around with, however, the building patterns were evolving[00:02:36] swyx: for Harrison for sure. Right? Like he's basically had to reinvent the company every year since he started Lang Chain.Right? It was Lang chain, Ang graph and LP agents and like, uh, I think he's like one of the most nimble, adept sharp people about this. Yeah. Yeah.[00:02:49] Jacob Effron: Saying now, now is finally the time stability[00:02:51] swyx: this. Yeah.[00:02:52] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Um, do you buy that or what have you kind of make of that take?[00:02:56] swyx: I think that. It, it's very expensive to say this Time is different sometimes, but when you're just writing code, like it's actually okay to just like try to make a call and I think it may not even matter if this call is right or not.Like I just don't even care that much because you can be right on a thesis, but if you don't, you don't figure out how to monetize the thesis, then who cares if you said something first that said, um, it does feel like, for example. Uh, we went through a lot of different ways of passion packaging integrations up with, uh, with agents.And it feels like we've landed at skills, which is like the minimal viable format. Yeah. Which is just a markdown file, uh, with some scripts attached to it, and I don't see how it can be more simple than that. And so there is some justification for. The stability around harnesses. I feel like there may be more adaptation with regards to maybe like the real time elements or subagents or memory or any of those like agent disciplines, let's call it in, in agent engineering.Uh, but if, if the thesis is that, okay, you just want agents are LMS with tools in the loop with a file system, what they can do. Retrieval with, with skills and all these like standard tooling that now seems to be relatively consensus then probably. That makes sense. Um, I just think like there's no point trying to stake your reputation on this thesis that we're there because if it changes again, just change with it.It's fine.[00:04:33] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's always, you know, I've always been struck by how that is. Much more challenging for infrastructure companies and application companies. Like obviously I think, yeah. You know, on the application side you've seen, you know, Brett Taylor from Sierra Max, from Lara. Like, they're like, look, we build, you know, what's ahead of the models and we're willing to throw everything out every three months, you know, as the models get better and better.Exactly. Yeah. But the thing you at least have there is you have. Uh, you have an end customer, right? That's like decently sticky. Um, you know, they will mostly stick, you know, they'll, they'll give you a shot at least of, of building these things. What I've always found more challenging, uh, at, at the kind of like, you know, reinvent yourself every three months of the infrastructure layer, it's like, you know, developers are definitely a, a pickier audience maybe than an accounting firm or, uh, you know, a bank.Yeah. And so it's definitely a, a, a more challenging position to be in to, to have to constantly reinvent yourself.[00:05:17] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like when they turn, it's like. Very complete. Like, they'll leave to like the, the hot new thing, uh, because there's like no defensibility, I guess. Like e even, even if you are a database, like, uh, people can migrate workloads off databases.Like it's, it's a, it's a known thing. Uh, so I think like basically what we're talking about is the vertical versus horizontal, uh, debate in, in AI startups. And uh, the way I think about it also is just that like when you are. Um, Lara, when you are a bridge, like you are the outsource AI team, right? You, you are, your job is to apply whatever state ofthe art AI methods.[00:05:55] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Like this translation layer between model capabilities and your[00:05:57] swyx: own customers. Yeah. To, to the end customers and like, well, if they didn't have you, they would've to hire in house and they're not gonna hire in house so they have you. And like, I think that's like a reasonable, like very robust to any whatever trends and, and discoveries that people make in, in the engineering layer.I do think like there is, um. It like sort of useful horizontal companies being built, but they're all. Very much like, sort of like the reinventions of classic cloud in the AI era and the, the primary one being sandboxes. Yeah. Um, which like, it's another form of compute guys, like, let's not get too excited about it.But I mean, like the, the workloads are enormous.[00:06:38] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:06:38] swyx: Yeah.[00:06:39] Jacob Effron: It's interesting, and I feel like as, as part of this, you know, the questions that folks are asking around infrastructure, there's a lot around, you know, the extent to which companies should have their own AI teams and what they should be doing in-house.And, you know, uh, I think there's questions around should people be training their own models? Should people be doing, you know, rl, uh, in-house based on the data they have? I feel like, you know, one has to evolve their takes on this every, every three months with paces. But where, where are you at on this today?[00:07:00] swyx: I think, well, I mean actually all models have gone up. Um, and obviously I'm involved in cognition and also cursors doing, doing, uh, a lot of own model training. And I think that that is some part of the, what I've been calling the agent lab playbook, where you start off with the state of the art models from, uh, from the big labs and you, uh, specialize for your domain.But once you have enough workload and enough high quality data from your users, then you can obviously train your own models and like save a lot on cost and latency and all that, all that good stuff. Um, you also get like a marketing bonus of like calling it some fancy name and putting out some research[00:07:38] Jacob Effron: from my seat.I can't tell how much of it is like actual, you know, value that's provided to the end user. And how much of it is that marketing bonus? Right. It seems some combination of the[00:07:45] swyx: I think it's both.[00:07:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:07:46] swyx: Um, no, no. There, there actually is real value. Um, and you, you know that for a number of reasons. Like one, even when it's not subsidized, people do choose it as like one of the top four or five.This is both composer two and, uh, suite 1.6 I one of the top five models. Like in a, in a fair market? In a free market, yeah. In a, in a, in a model switch. Or people do choose it and like, it's not subsidized. Like, so that's as good as it gets. Uh, but beyond that, like domain specific models, for example. For search with, with both, which both companies have absolutely makes, makes a ton of sense.Everyone says like, yeah, we should always, always do this. And honestly like, I think the infrastructure for that is becoming easier with, um, like thinking machines tinker thing as well as primary like, uh, lab stuff. Yeah, I mean like, this is one of those like reversal of the, the bitter lesson where you first bootstrap on the large models and the general purpose models to get big.And as you get very well-defined workloads that are just high quantity but not high variance, um, then you just distill down to a smaller model and run that on your own. Right. Which like totally makes sense.[00:08:50] Jacob Effron: What I'm less clear on is the kind of DIY RL use case, which I think is really mostly around, you know, improved, uh, quality for, for different things.Obviously there's probably like more efficient ways to, you know, get a smaller model that's that's faster and cheaper. And it'll be interesting to see whether. You know, obviously you had, you know, uh, two, three years ago this whole case of companies that were, you know, pre-training and claiming better outcomes in, in their domains than getting kind of cooked as each model iteration improved.You know, I wonder whether that's a, a similar story plays out in the, uh, in, in the, our all space. Yeah, for the focus on, on on pure outcomes and quality, not the cost side, which clearly your own models for cost at scale makes a ton of sense.[00:09:28] swyx: I think there are this, there are two sides of the same coin.Like you basically always want to hold, uh, quality constant or trade off a little bit of quality for a drastic decreasing cost. And that's true for everyone. Uh, one element I wanted to bring out, which is very much in favor of open models, is custom chips. So this would be cereus, but also talu. And then there's a huge range of stuff in between.This has been a huge story this past year on just like everything non Nvidia is getting bid up, including like freaking MatX is working for, which is very, which is very rewarding for me, but I think one of those things where like, oh, like the suddenly, because the number of alternative. Hard, uh, hardware is increasing and the inference that you can get is insanely high.Like, um, we're talking thousands of tokens per second instead of less than a hundred. So the trade off for qua quality doesn't hold as much anymore because the speed is so high.[00:10:24] Jacob Effron: Have you seen a lot of companies go all in on the alternative chip?[00:10:26] swyx: So cognition has Yeah. On Cerebras, uh, and, and so has OpenAIUm, uh, and so no, I don't think so beyond that, uh, and that, do you think that's like a, that's mostly, that's foreshadowing of, that's, yeah. I used to be kind of a skeptic in terms of like, okay, so what if I get my inference at a hundred to a hundred tokens per second sped up to 200 tokens per second. It's only two X faster.It's not that big a deal. Um, but when you, uh, I think every 10 x does unlock a different usage pattern. Um, and you, we have proof in Talas and, and some of the others. That you can actually, um, drastically imp improve inference speed and what happens from there? I don't even really know, like it's, it's so hard to predict when entire applications just appear at once.Yeah. Uh, and it also isn't that expensive, right? So like, um, this is one of those things where like, I, I think the, the investment cycle is gonna be multi-year. Um, and I. Would caution people to not dismiss it too, too quickly.[00:11:25] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I mean, one other like infra question I was curious to get your thoughts on is obviously it seems increasingly a lot of the cutting edge infra companies are building for agents as the buyers of their product or users of their product, right?[00:11:35] swyx: Ooh,[00:11:36] Jacob Effron: and[00:11:37] swyx: another huge theme. Yeah. Yeah.[00:11:38] Jacob Effron: And I'm trying to figure out like what. What, what do you have to do differently about selling into agents? Um, are they just the ultimate rational developers? Uh, or is there, you know,[00:11:46] swyx: no, absolutely not. Um, I think they are easily prompt, injected and, uh, very tuned towards like, basically com compounding existing winners.[00:11:57] Jacob Effron: Yeah,[00:11:57] swyx: so like if, like, congrats if you won the lottery for getting into the training data right before 2023, because now you're like installed in there for the foreseeable future. But yeah. Uh, you know, one stat that Versal, uh, CTO Malta dropped at my conference was that there are now, uh, 60% of traffic to Elle's, um, like app arch, like admin app architecture for like configuring versal applications, uh, is bought.It's not, it's not human. Uh, so like your primary customer is agents now. Um, and it's mostly co like mostly coding agents, mostly people using CLI on CP or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I think. More. I, I think step one, if it doesn't exist as an API that agents can use, it doesn't exist. Right, right. Which I think is like, uh, it's a good hygiene thing anyway, to, to make everything API available, but not as like an extra, um.Push on like products, people to not only work on the ui, um, you should probably work on the on SCLI stuff. Beyond that, I think honestly there is like, so I, I come from the sensibility of, I think everything that you are trying to do for agents experience now, which is the term that Matt Bowman and Nullify is trying to coin, is the same thing that you should have been doing for developer experience.That you should have had good docs, you should have had a consistent API, uh, that is. Mostly stateless. Um, you should have, I guess, discoverable or progressive disclosure or like search or like whatever. And so now that people have energy in like finding these customers to do that, that's great. Um, do I believe in.Extending beyond that into something like a EO, um, for gaming The chatbots? Not necessarily, but obviously there's gonna be huge advantages when people who figure out the short term wins. Yeah. And short term wins can compound.[00:13:43] Jacob Effron: Do you think these compounding advantages to like the, the pre-training data cutoff companies, like, you know, obviously over some period of time, I imagine that doesn't persist.And so as you think about like. I dunno, three, four years from now what the, you know, selection criteria end up being. Do you think it still mirrors exactly what you were saying before? Like it's exactly what you should have been doing all along to sell a good product to developers?[00:14:01] swyx: It could be, except that I think in three, four years we'll probably have much better memory and personalization.So then general a EO or GEO doesn't really matter as much. So I think whatever memory or personalization system we end up with will probably d determine what you end up choosing much more. Than, than what is currently the case, which is just frequency of mentions, let's call it. Yeah,[00:14:26] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:14:26] swyx: Uh, so you just spa quantity and I think that's, I mean, that's something I'm looking forward to.I do think, like, like, you know, I, I think that the fundamental exercise to work through for yourself is if you start a new, um, sort of. Uh, disruptor company. Now there's a, there's a big incumbent that everyone knows, like, like superb base. Super base is like, kind of like the Postgres, like database, uh, incumbent.If you wanna start like new superb base, how would you compete with them? And I don't necessarily have the answer, but I, I, I do think like people, like resend like relatively new. I think they would start like 20, 23 and still there was, there was a recent survey where like, people. Checked what Claude recommends by default.If you just don't prompt it with anything, just say, gimme an email provider and says, resent as in like 70, 70% of each cases. Like the fact that you can get in there with like such a relatively short existence, I think is, is encouraging.[00:15:14] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:15:14] swyx: I do think like. Um, you do want to do whatever it is to, to like to, to get in that Very short mentions this because, um, it's not gonna be 20 of them, it's gonna be like three.[00:15:26] Jacob Effron: No, definitely. It feels like, uh, you know, probably more, more consolidation than ever. Uh, or, or kind of like, you know, uh, a winner take most market than maybe the, the, the physics of go-to market in the past. Yeah. Might have, uh, enabled.[00:15:38] swyx: The other thing also is like, semantic association is gonna be very important, uh, in the sense that like, you want to do like the combo articles where you're like, use my thing with for sale, with blah, blah.And like that all gets picked up in a, in a corpus. And so that's. Probably one thing that you, you wanna do? Well, I don't know what else. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things where like, I think I feel, I feel I'm behind, uh, I don't know how you feel about this, but like,[00:16:04] Jacob Effron: I think AI is just everyone constantly feeling like they're behind some, uh,[00:16:08] swyx: yeah.With,[00:16:09] Jacob Effron: I wanna meet the person that doesn't feel behind,[00:16:11] swyx: but like with, with ax, right? Like, so, so like, my, my stance was that exactly what I said before, like everything that you, that you should do for agents is something that you should have done for humans anyway. Yeah. And so. To the extent that you're just getting it more energy to, to do things for agents, great.But like, uh, it's hard to articulate what new thing apart from just like more spam, um, that you should be doing. Anyway, that would be my take right now. Um, I I, I do think like there, there will be more turns at this. I think the personalization turn that is coming, um, will be big. And I don't know what that looks like because like basically we're kind of, we feel kind of tapped out on the memory side of things.[00:16:49] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I, I guess since we last chatted, you know, you, you took this role over at cognition, um, and you've obviously have a, have a front row seat to the AI coding space today. You know, I feel like coding in many ways. You know, people view it as this, like, I mean, besides being like the, the mother of all markets and this massive opportunity, I think it's kinda a preview of like, what's to come for many other spaces.Both. Yeah. You know, I feel like agents are most advanced in coding. I also feel like the, you know, competition between foundation models and application companies, you know, and, uh, mirrors what we may see in other spaces. And so maybe for our listeners, can you just lay out like what is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:17:25] swyx: Um, it is massive, right? Like, uh, and I don't think necessarily, last time we talked about this, we appreciated the size of what[00:17:32] Jacob Effron: No, I wish we did.[00:17:33] swyx: I state of AI coding wars today, um, both opening eye philanthropic have made it their p serials to competing coding. Um, and. Tropic is like 2.5 billion in a RR just from Cloud Code.The way they recognize a RR is. Opt for debate, uh, open ai. I don't think the, a public number is known, but let's call it 2 billion as well. And then cursor is like, rumored to be 2 billion, you know? And, and those, those are like the public numbers that are known? Yeah. Um, so like huge markets that have just been created in the past one year.Like, like anthropic, just like Claude Code just recently celebrated their one year anniversary, which is, yeah, pretty nice. Um, so, and then I think, like the other thing that I see is there's, there's some other people who are like, oh, here's like the, the sort of relative penetration of, uh, Claude use cases, right?Like, and it's like coding 50% and then legal, whatever. Health, uh, it's like the, the remaining ones. And there was a very popular tweet that was like, okay, I'll look at the, the empty space and all these other use cases. If you are a new founder today, you should be betting on the other stuff because on, on a sort of catch up Yeah.Theory and my. Consider my, my pushback is the same pushback that, uh, I had on app over Google, which is like, well, well why is this time different? Like, why, if it went from let's say 10 to 50% in the past year, why can't I keep going? Uh, and like getting that wrong is actually a very painful one because you could have just did, did the momentum bet.Instead of the mean reversion bed. So I, I, I think that that is the, the state of things now that people are very, very much into psychosis. Um, they're are getting rewarded for spending more rather than spending less. And I think we're not in that phase of efficiency. We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration.So I think people who are more crazy, who are more. Uh, creative, um, get rewarded comparatively. Yeah.[00:19:27] Jacob Effron: Well, it's interesting. I mean, it feels like behind these like token maxing, leaderboards and whatnot is this, it's like the first phase of this transition from a workforce perspective is you just gotta show your employer like, Hey, I, I use these tools.[00:19:37] swyx: Here's my nu number of tokens I cost, and that's it. They don't care about the quality. Right. It is, uh, maybe distasteful to someone who cares about the craft and, and all that. Um, but directionally everyone just wants you to go up regardless. And so, um, there it is not very discerning. It's, and it's probably very sloppy, but I think it's net fine because we're still probably underusing ai just in generally.Yeah. Um, and so I think that's like very interesting. Like we had on the podcast, uh, Ryan La Poplar from OBI, who spends a billion tokens a day. Yeah. Um, and that's for those county home, it's like something like 10,000 worth, $10,000 worth a day of API tokens. If they, they did market rates, um, and like most of us can't afford that.Yeah. But like. And, and, and probably a lot of what he does is slop.[00:20:25] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:20:25] swyx: But like, he's going to dis, he's like, if there were a new capability, he would discover it first before you because he was, he was trying and you were not trying. Right. And like, you only do things that work like, well, good for you.But like the, the people who are going to discover the next hot thing are living at the edge.[00:20:42] Jacob Effron: Right and increase in living at the edge of just having the compute budget to like run these experiments. I mean, kind of similar to what living at the edge on the research side has always been. You know, it was constrained in many ways by the amount of compute you had to run these experiments.It feels similarly on the, almost on the builder or like actualizing these tools now.[00:20:56] swyx: Yeah. The other thing that's, I mean, very obvious is philanthropic is kind of like the high price premium player. Um, that where, you know. Restricting limits or restricting model releases even is like the name of the game.Whereas Codex is like, come on in guys, use our SDK, use our login and we don't care. We're gonna reset limits. Whatever you do want to try to exploit the subsidies where you can get it. And definitely Codex is super subsidized right now. Gemini also very subsidized. Um, and. Comparatively, like, I think you should make, Hey, I guess while, while that's going on, it's not that bad to be a capabilities explorer on just the $200 a month plan from Cloud Code or from OpenAI.Um, and, uh, I I, I, my sense is that people aren't even there yet.[00:21:41] Jacob Effron: How do you think this, like, market ultimately plays? I mean, it's obviously such a big market that, you know, any slice of that market is interesting for, for anyone going after it. But I think what, what makes people so interesting in the coding market particularly is it feels like it's kind of this.Foreshadowing of what will happen in other, you know, any other kind of application market that the foundation models eventually turn to and are all their models against and gather data around. And so how do you think, you know, like does there end up being room for lots of different kinds of players or like, what do you think the end state of this market is and is that, do you think that's applicable to other markets?[00:22:10] swyx: I feel like there will be, I mean. Status quo is probably the most likely outcome, which is there are two big players and there's a small range of longer tail people that, um, fit other use cases that the, the two big players don't. That feels right to me. I think that, um, for it to, for the market structure to, to significantly change there would be, there needs to be significant change in like the economics or like the, the brand building or like the, the, the, the value propositions of the, of the companies involved and I.Haven't seen any in the last six months that, that have really changed the stories materially. So I feel like they would just keep going until something, something else happens. Something else happens, meaning like Microsoft wakes up and like goes like. Guys, we have GitHub, we have, uh, you know, we, we, we'll, we'll do something much bigger here than other, other than just copilot.Um, and, uh, that would be a big change. Um, MSL has put out a model now, and I was in a breakfast with, uh, Alex Wang, where they were like, yeah, like, we, we really, really want to go after the coding use case. We haven't done anything yet, but like, don't underestimate them. Right. Um, and, and similarly for the Chinese labs.Um, I think they're trying to go after it. Like ZAI is doing stuff. GLM uh, ZI and GLM is same thing. Um, uh, and, and so it's, so like everyone's trying to get a piece of that pie. I, I feel like the, the status quo has been pretty stable for the past, like almost a year I'll say.[00:23:39] Jacob Effron: Yeah. And is the room for the, not like, you know, for, for the application companies more on like the enterprise side or like where do the, where do the, like what surface area do the model companies leave for application companies?[00:23:50] swyx: Yeah, that's a good one. Um. It's very much evolving. Um, it, I, I, I will say because opening I did not have this, the, this level of attention on coding. Yeah. Uh, a year ago. We just don't have that much history. Right. Um, and it seems like, for example, so the big push at Open I now is the Super app. Um, is that a consumer thing?Is that like a products like. Portfolio rationalization thing, how much is that gonna take away attention from coding at the time when they actually do want to put more coding? I think it's, it's very unclear. So I do think like there's, there's all these, like in both big labs, there's. Uh, sorry. Both of the, and, and drop and, and deep minus and XAI are are separate cases.Um, they are trying to see the other time expansion areas. So cloud code for finance. Yeah. Um, uh, cloud cowork, all those, all those things. Whereas I think cursor and cognition are like comparatively just focused on coding and so I, I do think they leave space and I do think for the other verticals that also means the same thing.Right. That, uh, that they're not gonna be that. Um, intensely focused on, on, on that domain. Except for, I, I think I would mark out finance and healthcare as like the next ones, um, that they're clearly going after. Uh, I, I would say comparatively, healthcare seems more thorny. There, there, there've been some announcements about it, but like, I would respect the, the finance work a lot more just because like the, the path to money is a lot clearer.[00:25:12] Jacob Effron: Yeah, no, I mean, obviously like, I, I think, you know, maybe similar to, to the space that's being left in these other domains, you know, there's obviously. Uh, a lot that's required to actually implement these tools in enterprises, uh, versus, you know, maybe just giving them, uh, giving model access to, to folks outta the box.[00:25:27] swyx: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the, the agent lab thing is like, we'll do the last mile for you. Whereas I think the model labs tend to just trust the model and, and be minimalist about it. Both of them work.[00:25:38] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:25:38] swyx: I, I don't, I don't necessarily think one, uh, beats the other, uh, for every, for every use case. Um, all I, all I do know is that it does seem like.Uh, the large enterprises do want a dedicated partner that isn't just the model labs, which is kind of interesting.[00:25:55] Jacob Effron: We, we've been in this phase of, of pure capability exploration. And so I think nothing has been, you know, better for the large labs, right? I mean, they're always gonna be, uh, uh, the frontier of, of capability exploration.And so I think have a very good relationship with a lot of these enterprises. But ultimately over time, like. The, uh, the incentive structure of these labs is always gonna be maximal, you know, token consumption for, uh, for the end customers they work with. And there's just, I think, so few companies that have actually gotten to massive scale.Maybe coding again is the most interesting. So it's the first space that really is just completely gone, you know? Yeah. You must love it every day. Like absolutely insane. And. I think it[00:26:32] swyx: gets even. Okay. I mean, like, I think we, we say good things about crystal cognition, but the sheer liftoff of like both end UPIC and open ai.‘cause they, they, they have independent valuations. I mean, let's throw an XEI in there because it's now I ping at 1.2 trillion. That number is just mind boggling. Like I, I feel like in normal investing or normal startups, there's kind of like a ceiling market cap or valuation. Totally. That, that like you, you reach and you go like, all right, let's, it's gonna be chiller from now on.And these guys are not slow down. No.[00:27:02] Jacob Effron: Well, I also think the dynamic is fascinating about some of these later stage companies is, is, you know, in the past, I feel like in, in venture world, if you got to a certain level of scale, the question around you was really more a valuation question. And this is like why there was different phase, like, you know, types of venture people did and like the late stage growth people were just incredible at like, you know, a little bit of what's the ultimate market opportunity of this company, but also what's the right way to, to value it.Like we know it's, it's in some bands of an outcome that is like. Sure there's some variance to it, but it's like relatively understood what that bands is and then maybe you get over time surprised to the upside. Whereas any kind of like later, even the labs themselves, any later stage company, the bands of which that company might be worth right now, even in a year or two years are so massive because of how fast the ecosystem changes that it's like.Even for later stage companies, every three months could be an existential level event to the upside to the downside. Yeah. Um, and I think that, like, you are obviously seeing it in the, in the positive with code, which, you know, if you think about a company like philanthropic, you know, that. For a while, it was like unclear if they were going to have access to enough capital, um, to really stay in the, in the race, right?And then coding hit at the exact right time. They had the perfect model for it. They executed brilliantly. Um, and you know, now are, are, you know, uh, you know, one of the most valuable companies in the world.[00:28:13] swyx: Uh, at the same time, I, I don't find, I, I have zero sympathy for opening eye because they're crushing it and they're all rich.You know, this is like a high class champagne problem to have to, uh, to be number two at coding or whatever. Like, who cares? Like, you're, you're doing great.[00:28:27] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's funny though. I can't even, I mean, you would be closer to this, uh, you know, even that you're in the AI coding space, but it's like a lot of people I talk to think Codex is just as good, if not better than Claude Code.Right. I think one thing that I've been really surprised by, and maybe, maybe Cloud Code is a better product in some ways, I'm curious your thoughts is just in consumer AI with chat GBT. You saw this big first mover advantage, right? Where admittedly today, like, I don't know, Claude Gemini. Great products.Not sure, not abundantly clear chat GBTs any better, but like. People stick with chat, GBT, it's the first thing to introduce them.[00:28:56] swyx: They stay, but they're not growing anymore. I don't know if you've seen[00:28:59] Jacob Effron: Right. But that to me is more of like a, a, a product problem than it is. They're not like, it's not like they've like lost share to someone else.My understanding is the overall problem with consumer AI today is much more of a how do you take this tool and, you know, for, for folks like us, like knowledge workers, it's like this incredible magic tool, but it's not necessarily a daily active use tool for a lot of people around the world today. And what are the like products?It's, it's kind of a category wide problem. Like in coding, for example, like. The entire space has gone parabolic. There may be some relative growth in, uh, in other consumer AI players, but it's not like consumer AI as a category is like going parabolic and they're not capturing most of that thing. I think it's actually the larger problem is much more, hey, the category has kind of hit a bit of a plateau of people haven't figured out how to bring, you know, tons more users on board.Yeah, yeah. Or increase the frequency of those users. And so it seems more of a category wide problem than it is, you know, a massive market share of change. I was gonna draw the comparison to, to the coding space where Claude Co is the first product, obviously, to introduce people to this magical experience.You know, by all accounts, codex is, is pretty damn close to as good, if not better. Um, but like still that first product, you, you would've thought that would not be a super sticky, uh, you know, product surface area. And it actually has, it turns out, I, it feels like the first lab to introduce you and experience really does, uh, keep a lot of, uh, a lot of the focus.[00:30:12] swyx: I, I think. M maybe it's like still, still early days. You know, Chad, BT is like three plus years old and Yeah. Cloud code is only one. Just turned a year. Yeah. So give it time, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah. I mean, definitely sometimes a lot of people have switched from to Codex. Maybe that will keep going. I, it's like really hard to tell.Uh, yeah. I, I, I do, I do think that. Because we are in this like, high volatility, high temperature phase. Um, the loyalty and stickiness to first movers and category creators, I don't think is as high as it might be in some other, uh, areas in our careers that we've looked at.[00:30:47] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Though, I mean, I've been surprised by the cloud code thing.I, I would've thought that, like, in many ways I always worried about the[00:30:52] swyx: enterprise. You think you would've been gone by now?[00:30:53] Jacob Effron: Not gone. But I would've, I I always worried that the, that the consumer business of these companies would be quite sticky. And then the enterprise API business. Uh, was actually like, you know, in some ways like your least loyal buyers, like they would, they would move to,[00:31:05] swyx: right, right.But, but they worked out that it wasn't the enterprise API it was enterprise product.[00:31:09] Jacob Effron: Totally. And maybe that was the, that was the secret that like, but the amount of lock-in or just default behavior that has happened in that space, uh, is, is more than I might've imagined with two products that by all accounts are pretty damn similar.Yeah.[00:31:22] swyx: No fight there. Uh, I will say I do think that Codex is still in like a catch up. Like in terms of personal experience. Um, the only thing I like out of, out of Codex is the, is like Spark and like yeah. Uh, the, I, I feel like the skills integration is a little bit better. I feel like, uh, the, the speed is a bit better.Maybe ‘cause it's in, is written in rust or whatever. Um, very minor things that you like. Almost like telling yourself rather than like objectively assessing between two, two of them. I, I, I do think, like vibes wise, I think that's going on. Um, the, the, you know, I, I feel like the, the missing questions, uh, in, in this whole debate is like, why is this so concentrated in only two names, right?Yeah. Like, um, how, where, like, where is the Gemini? You know, presence, where's the Xai presence? Um, and like they are trying, it's just they haven't made that much progress yet.[00:32:12] Jacob Effron: But what the, what the Claude Co moment does show, and it actually in some ways makes you a little more bullish on the potential for someone else to catch up because it does feel like if you're the first person to introduce some magical net new product experience, that that actually might be stickier than one might have imagined.[00:32:27] swyx: Right, right, right. Okay. Yeah.[00:32:28] Jacob Effron: And so it's, everyone can believe they have shot[00:32:29] swyx: that. What do you think that new product experience might be like? I, I, it's, it's like, and this is a failure of imagination on my part. Like, I always wonder, like, people always say this like, well, the, the thing that will save us is like being first to the next new thing.Like what is it?[00:32:41] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:32:42] swyx: It's like,[00:32:45] Jacob Effron: I dunno, something around like, uh, consumer agent, computer use, like hybrid. I think, obviously, I think we're like scratching the surface on the consumer side.[00:32:53] swyx: So my, my current theory is like the. Open claw is like a vision of things to come.[00:32:58] Jacob Effron: Totally.[00:32:58] swyx: Um, and uh, it's good that O open I has like the association with open claw, but by no means do they have the rights to win it.The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the year the same way that 2025 was the year of coding agents, 2026 is coding agents breaking containment to do everything else. Um, and so coding agents continue to still win, but because they generate software and software eats the world, so like, it's kind of like the trans.Associated property of like software, eat the world, coding agents, eat software, therefore coding agents eat the world. Um, which is like an interesting,[00:33:30] Jacob Effron: yeah, and breaking containment always an easier phase phrase in the consumer context than the enterprise one. You've seen people run these really cool, uh, experiments in their own personal lives.I think like,[00:33:37] swyx: yes.[00:33:38] Jacob Effron: Figuring out, you know, how you, obviously everyone's focused, you know, on the enterprise side now around how you create these experiences. I feel like the vibes, you know, people love to have these narratives of like, everything is completely shifted. It's like I actually, you know, open AI.Organizationally, uh, you know, volatility aside is, you know, great products, great team, great models like everyone else in the world is incentivized for there to be. Two, three more. Everyone would love more like great model companies. And so I feel like the, the natural forces of the world revolt when any one company, you know, is too much the star of the show, right?There's so many people in the ecosystem that are incentivized for that not to happen. And so I think I'd be shocked if we don't have. Uh, uh, reversion of vibes, not maybe completely the other way, but at least a little bit more equal at some point over the next six, 12 months.[00:34:24] swyx: I, I think there's just a kind of different stages when, when you talk about the world, one wanting more model companies, I talked think about like the neo labs.[00:34:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:34:31] swyx: And I mean, I don't know, is it fair to say none of them have really broken through in the past year?[00:34:35] Jacob Effron: I think that's totally fair,[00:34:37] swyx: which is rough. Um, and well, how are we gonna, how are we gonna grow that diversity in, in, in choice, like. Um, that's, this is it.[00:34:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It'll be really interesting to see what, what, what ends up happening with that.And you've seen, you know, folks like Nvidia, you know, very incentivized to make sure there's, there's a broader platform of, of other model providers.[00:34:57] swyx: I think, uh, I don't know people say this, but I, I, I don't think they try it hard. Nvidia tries harder to build neo clouds[00:35:05] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:35:06] swyx: Than neo labs.[00:35:07] Jacob Effron: Well, they try pretty damn hard to build neo Cloud, so[00:35:09] swyx: that's,[00:35:09] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:35:10] swyx: But like, you know, let's call it like the, the core weaves of the world, much happier place in the, you know, than any neo lab built on top of them.[00:35:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. That one might argue it's, it's easier to, to enable a neo cloud to be successful than it is. Uh, you can't will a neo lab into existence the same way you, soNvidia[00:35:25] swyx: has more direct control over it.Uh, for sure.[00:35:27] Jacob Effron: What else is kind of catching your eye today on the startup side? I mean, you worry, there's obviously this whole narrative of like, you know, the foundation models, you know, they announced a product and every stock goes down 15%. Like[00:35:36] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:37] Jacob Effron: Do you, do you worry about the foundation models just kind of eating into to a bunch of these startup categories?[00:35:43] swyx: Not really. I, I think actually like. As, uh, there's, there's, okay, there's, there's, there's the, there's the point of view of like being an investor in startups, and there's a point of view of like, do you wanna start something? And I think honestly, like the, the downside for all these is so. Minimal in, in a sense of like, the worst you do is you just get hired into one of these labs anyway.So I, I think the, the market for people who just do things and try things and try to execute in like a competent way, even if like it doesn't work out commercially, even if it just wasn't that great anyway. Like, but like that's your job interview to go into, into one of these things anyway, so, um, I don't feel that.From a, from a very, very small startup perspective, mid-size startups. Yes. Uh, I will say there's been a lot of dead, um, LM Infra, a lot of LM infra consolidation like the, the, uh, lang fuses of the world getting absorbed into, into click house. And I, I think. Like people have maybe worked out the domain specific playbook, uh, and like, I think that's okay.Um, and, and yeah, I'm not that, not that worried about, uh, okay. So, um, I, I would say I'd be more worried about traditional SaaS, like low NPSS. This is the whole AI versus SaaS debate that has, that's been going on. Uh, and, and like literally I'm going through that exact thing in my company where, so I like kind of.Thinking through this on a very visceral, visceral level, right? On one hand you have the people who say you vibe coders don't appreciate the amount of work that goes into A-A-C-R-M and like, yeah, you think you can rip out Salesforce? So did the 30 entrepreneurs before you, right? Like, like, you know, you classically underestimate the things that you don't.Deeply, no. And, and, and target audience is not you. Uh, at the same time, like we have never been able to build software so easily and customize software so easily and like Yeah, you're not gonna use 90% of the things in Salesforce. So like, yeah. What's the typical, so what have you, what[00:37:33] Jacob Effron: have you done internally?[00:37:34] swyx: So we have there the main SaaS that we do for event management and sponsor management. That's, and we paid 200 KA year for that. Not, not huge, but like chunky for, for, for my, my scale. Um, and like, yeah, I could probably spend 2000 and, and build like a custom version of that. Um, the, the, the trick has been dealing with my, the rest of my team and getting them on board.Yeah. ‘cause I'm the most ethical person on my team, but like, I can't make that decision myself. And I think in the same way I've been telling with other CEOs team leaders as well, it's like, well you can be super cloud pilled. You can be super LM psychosis and that you think that's okay, but you like you have to bring your team with you.And I think like there, the sort of widening disparity in LM psychosis in companies is causing real s real riffs because. And on one hand, on one hand, the people who are less AI native are not getting with the picture. They're not, they're actually like behind, they're actually not waking up to the fact that like you, everything you think is necessary is not actually that necessary.And in fact, exactly would be better of you if you just like held your nose and went in and when came out the other side. Yeah, only talking to agents in natural language and like your life would actually be better and you just, you're just like close-minded. There's that perspective. The other perspective is, oh, you vibe coder.You, you did this in a weekend and you got the 80% solution and now the rest of your employees. Have to pick up the rest of your s**t, right, that you, that you thought you were, you were such hot, amazing, uh, uh, at, but like, actually you didn't figure it out. And like, actually LMS are still useless at this and blah, blah, blah.So like, I think there's this huge debate going on in every company right now. Um, and like, um, you know, I have a small microcosm of it, but like, yeah, it, it's making me hesitate to, to pull the trigger. But like I will at some point, it's like maybe I've put it off for one year, but not like five. Yeah, but like, so, so like SaaS is definitely getting squeezed.Um, it does make me wonder, like, I, I do think that there's an opportunity for a more AI native, um, system of record thing that is not just Postgres. Um, or not just MongoDB, although both are very good. Maybe it's like a convex or like people Yeah. Bring up convex a lot. I don't know, like, like, I, I just feel like the sort of quote unquote firebase of, of AI apps isn't really a thing yet.Um, beyond what we have. Uh, which, which is fine. It's, it's, it's just. We could probably start in a more sort of rapid iteration cycle first before scaling up to like a Postgres or MongoDB, which are more sort of old tech. I was at a dinner with, uh, Mike Krieger, the CPO of en philanthropic, and, and he, we were just kind of going around the room going like, what are people most worried about?Yeah. And, uh, for me, uh, I, instead of security, I brought up biosafety. Yeah,[00:40:21] Jacob Effron: classic.[00:40:22] swyx: Um, actually, like I said, it was. Cliche and classic, and the rest of the table were, were like, what do you mean? Someone sitting at home can manufacture a virus that wipes out half of humanity,[00:40:32] Jacob Effron: almost like the OG Jeffrey Hinton.Like, this is why you should be scared.[00:40:35] swyx: I'm like, yeah, like the read the, you know, risk reports. Like this is like the thing. Um, I think, and Mike was just sitting there knowing he was sitting on Mythos and going like, actually it's security. Um, and I think like, um, I think the, there's, there's, part of it is.A very good marketing. Like too good. Yeah, like I would actually advise and topic to tune down the marketing because also it's, it is just a very good model and you don't have to make so many marketing claims around it. At the same time, it is not really a private model. If you give it to 40 companies.Each of whom have like 10,000 employees or whatever. Right. It's not, it's not private, it's, it's like there's bad actors in there.[00:41:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully not as, uh, as bad as releasing it widely, but, uh, no, I mean, it's an interesting. You know, it's an interesting case study for how all, I mean, many model releases might, I mean, you know, this might be the first model release that looks like the rest of ‘em from from now on, right?[00:41:31] swyx: It, it, so it's, it's the, there's an overall product strategy, uh, for anthropic of like bundle, uh, you know, restrict access bundle, uh, product with model maybe.Whereas, uh, OpenAI has definitely been a lot more sort of. Philosophically aligned on like, we will just enable access everywhere and we don't know what you, what will come out of it. Right.[00:41:51] Jacob Effron: Right. Though, I mean, this current moment, uh, obviously the cynical take is also just ties to the amount of compute that both companies[00:41:56] swyx: Yeah.Right, right, right. Yeah, I think, I think that's true. I I do think like the, the, this is the, the, the scale, the dawn of like larger than 10 trillion parameter models is very interesting. I don't think it, I think it's a temporary phenomenon because we have much larger compute clusters coming online for everyone over the next like three, five years.It's, and this is like already written in, in the cards.[00:42:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:42:19] swyx: So to the extent that like, you know, will we have rationing of models, uh, above 10 trillion, uh, in like two years? I don't think so. I think everyone will have no, we'll just[00:42:29] Jacob Effron: have rationing of the next phase.[00:42:30] swyx: Right. Right. But like, that's as it should be almost like, um.My, my classic example, which I, this is just me theorizing, not anything confirmed by Google. When Google announced Gemini, they actually announced three sizes, which was Flash Pro Ultra. They never released Ultra. They only have Pro and Flash. Um, so my theory is they have ultra sitting in a basement and they just could distilling from it for, for flashing pro.Um, which like, yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that's. As it should be for any lab that they, that they do that.[00:43:02] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Just because those are the models that people actually wanna end up using. And it's just like cost prohibit.[00:43:06] swyx: It is more, yeah, it's cost. Yeah. It's, it's not the want, it's just, just, just the cost.Um, I do think, like, uh, it is interesting that, uh, for a while I was, I was considering the theory that models capped out at two, 2 trillion, and I think that's proving to be wrong. And well then if I'm wrong, how wrong? How wrong am I? Do we do 200 trillion? Do we do two quarter trillion, whatever? Um, and I don't think we have the straight answer to that, but like, uh, it's interesting that we are continuing to scale number of pers when everyone kind of assu like can see that we're not going to get like the next thousand or 1 million x from this paradigm.So like the others, like the alias of the world are working on other. Um, model architecture improvements. We need a different scaling law, I guess, because like, we're, I, I feel like people already already feel like we're tapped out on this. Like the, the end, the end state of this is we turn most of the world into data centers and like, I don't know.I don't know if we want that.[00:44:08] Jacob Effron: Yeah, I mean, uh, if the, if, if, if the return of intelligence are there, maybe, uh, maybe not so bad.[00:44:13] swyx: I, I, I think there, there's just a sheer amount of like, like un scalability that like is wrangling people's sensibilities right now. Um, especially in terms of like context lengths.Um, my classic quote is that context length is like the slowest scaling factor in, in lms.[00:44:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:44:30] swyx: Um, we, like, we took maybe. Three years to go from like 4,000 context length to a million and that's about it. Yeah. Like Gemini has had a million token context length for two years now. Um, and no one's using it.Like, so like yeah, it's memory. Memory is probably gonna be the, the biggest limiting constraint on all these things.[00:44:50] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Certainly seems that way. I guess I'm curious over the last year since you recorded last, like what's one thing you've changed your mind on?[00:44:57] swyx: I feel like I was kind of bearish on open models like last year.Um, in a sense of, like, I, I had just done the podcast with an Al[00:45:07] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:45:08] swyx: Of Braintrust where he, and he, I mean, you know, he has a good cross section of all the top AI companies and he says market share of open source is 5% and going down. Um, I think that's changed. I think it's going up. Um, and even if,[00:45:22] Jacob Effron: even though the capability gap does seem to be increasing.Spending on the[00:45:26] swyx: time. It's hard to tell. Yeah, it's, it's really hard to tell. ‘cause like, okay, for, for listeners, capability gap increasing is like on public benchmarks. And let's say you're comparing mythos versus like, I don't know, G-T-O-S-S or like GLM 5.1. And, um, it's, it is really hard to tell. ‘cause even if they were closing, you will also not believe that they were closing that much because it's very easy to gain the benchmarks.Yeah. So you just don't really, really know. Um, all you know is like. Uh, there's somewhat objective open router stats on like what people choose in a free market. And people do choose some of these open models in significant volume, except that a lot of them are heavily discounted. So you need to kind of like price adjust, uh, these things.So even if, even if that were true, which I, I'm not sure, like I, I, I feel like the numbers just up now instead of down. Uh, I think the. Separation between what the top tier agent labs

Early bird discounts for the San Francisco World's Fair, the biggest AIE gathering of the year, end today - prices will go up by ~$500 tonight so do please lock in ASAP!From near-universal AI tool adoption inside Shopify to internal systems for ML experimentation, auto-research, customer simulation, and ultra-low-latency search, Mikhail Parakhin joins us for a deep dive into what it actually looks like when a 20-year-old, $200B software company goes all-in on AI. We cover why Shopify has become much more vocal about its internal stack, what changed after the December model-quality inflection, and why the real bottleneck in AI coding is no longer generation, but review, CI/CD, and deployment stability.We also go inside Tangle, Tangent, SimGym, which are three major AI initiatives that Shopify is doing to make experimentation reproducible, optimization automatic, customer behavior simulatable, and search and catalog intelligence faster and cheaper at scale. Along the way, Mikhail explains UCP, Liquid AI, and why token budgets are directionally right but often measured badly, why AI-written code can still increase bugs in production, what makes Shopify's customer simulation defensible, and what he learned from the Sydney era at Bing.We discuss:* Mikhail's path from running a major Microsoft business unit spanning Windows, Edge, Bing, and ads to becoming CTO of Shopify* Why Shopify is talking more publicly about AI now, and why staying at the frontier has become necessary for the company* Shopify's internal AI adoption curve, the December inflection, and why CLI-style tools are rising faster than traditional IDE-based tools* Why Jensen Huang is directionally right on token budgets, but raw token count is still the wrong way to evaluate engineering output* Why the real unlock is not more agents in parallel, but better critique loops, stronger models, and spending more on review than generation* Why AI coding can still lead to more bugs in production even if models write cleaner code on average than humans* Why Shopify built its own PR review flow, and why Mikhail thinks most off-the-shelf review tools miss the point* How PR volume, test failures, and deployment rollback are becoming the real bottlenecks in the agent era* Why Git, pull requests, and CI/CD may need a new metaphor once code is written at machine speed* What Tangle is, and how Shopify uses it to make ML and data workflows reproducible, collaborative, and production-ready from the start* Why Tangle is different from Airflow, and why content-addressed caching creates network effects across teams* What Tangent is, and how Shopify is using auto-research loops to optimize search, themes, prompt compression, storage, and more* Why Tangent is becoming a democratizing tool for PMs and domain experts, not just ML engineers* Why AutoML finally feels real in the LLM era, and where auto-research still falls short today* Why Tangle, Tangent, and SimGym become much more powerful when combined into one system* What SimGym is, why simulated customers only work if you have real historical behavior, and why Shopify's data gives it a moat* How SimGym evolved from comparing A/B variants to telling merchants what to change on a single live storefront to raise conversions* Why customer simulation is so expensive, from multimodal models to browser farms to serving and distillation costs* How Shopify models merchant and buyer trajectories, runs counterfactuals, and thinks about interventions like discounts, campaigns, and notifications* Why category-level behavior is so different across commerce, and why ideas like Chinese Restaurant Processes are showing up again in practice* Shopify's new UCP and catalog work, including runtime product search, bulk lookups, and identity linking* Why Shopify is using Liquid AI, and why Mikhail sees it as the first genuinely competitive non-transformer architecture he has used in practice* Where Liquid already works inside Shopify today, from low-latency query understanding to large-scale catalog and Sidekick Pulse workloads* Whether Liquid could become frontier-scale with enough compute, and why Shopify remains pragmatic and merit-based about model choice* Who Shopify is hiring right now across ML, data science, and distributed databases* The Sydney story at Bing, why its personality was not an accident, and what Mikhail learned from deliberately shaping AI character early onMikhail Parakhin* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikhail-parakhin/* X: https://x.com/MParakhinTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction: Mikhail Parakhin, Microsoft, and Shopify00:01:16 Why Shopify Is Talking More About AI00:02:29 Internal AI Adoption at Shopify and the December Inflection00:06:54 Token Budgets, Jensen Huang, and Why Usage Metrics Can Mislead00:10:55 Why Shopify Built Its Own AI PR Review System00:12:38 AI Coding, More Bugs, and the Real Deployment Bottleneck00:14:11 Why Git, PRs, and CI/CD May Need to Change for Agents00:18:24 Tangle: Shopify's Reproducible ML and Data Workflow Engine00:21:19 Why Tangle Is Different from Airflow00:26:14 Tangent: Auto Research for Optimization and Experimentation00:30:07 How Tangent Democratizes Experimentation Beyond ML Engineers00:33:06 The Limits of Auto Research00:36:36 Why Tangle, Tangent, and SimGym Compound Together00:37:20 SimGym: Simulating Customers with Shopify's Historical Data00:42:47 The Infra Behind SimGym00:46:00 Why SimGym Gets Better with Real Customer History00:47:30 Counterfactuals, HSTU, and Modeling Merchant Trajectories00:51:55 CRPs, Clustering, and Category-Level Customer Behavior00:53:30 UCP, Shopify Catalog, and Identity Linking00:55:07 Liquid AI: Why Shopify Uses Non-Transformer Models00:59:13 Real Shopify Use Cases for Liquid01:03:00 Can Liquid Scale into a Frontier Model?01:09:49 Hiring at Shopify: ML, Data Science, and Databases01:10:43 Sydney at Bing: Personality Shaping and AI Character01:13:32 Closing ThoughtsTranscript[00:00:00] swyx: Okay. We're here in the studio, a remote studio, with Mikhail Parakhin, CTO of Shopify. Welcome.[00:00:08] Mikhail Parakhin: Thank you. Welcome.[00:00:10] swyx: I don't even know if I should introduce you as CTO of Shopify. I feel like you have many identities. Uh, you led sort of the, the Bing ML team, I guess, uh, uh, or ads team. I, I don't know, I don't know, uh, you know, it's, uh, people va-variously refer you as like CEO or, or, uh, I don't know what that, that, that said previous role at Microsoft was.[00:00:29] Mikhail Parakhin: Uh, that was... Yeah, my previous role w- at Microsoft was the-- I actually was the CEO of one of Microsoft's business units, which included, as I, you know, as we discussed, all the things that people like to laugh about, uh, including Windows and Edge and Bing and ads and everything.[00:00:47] swyx: Yeah, yeah. What a, what a, what a wild time.You've obviously, uh, done a lot since you landed at Shopify. Uh, one of the reasons I reached out was because you started promoting more sort of internal tooling, uh, primarily Tangle, but also a lot of people have seen and adopted Tobi's QMD, uh, and obviously, I think, uh, Shopify has always been sort of leading in terms of, uh, engineering.I think more-- it's just more recent that you guys have been more vocal about your sort of AI adoption. Is that, is that true?[00:01:16] Mikhail Parakhin: Well, I think AI tools in general are fairly recent development, uh, and we've-- Shopify, you know, at this stage of its development, we're developing AI in-in-house and other, uh, building tools that use AI and, you know, interfacing with the wider AI community, uh, you know, are on the sort of the, uh, runaway trajectory.So it just did by sort of natural byproduct. We, we talk about it more also. We just, uh, just even yesterday, Andrej Karpathy was famous in tweeting about, oh, are there some, uh, ways, uh, that, that you can organize your agents to store the data and then, uh, look up the data so that you don't have to research or, or lose context every- Yestime. And a little bit tongue in cheek, I tweeted that, “Hey, we've, we've done it much earlier, and we even have different approaches, Tobi and I.” Tobi, of course, is a big fan of QMD, and I'm more of a SQL, SQLite fan. But, uh, yeah, very similar things that we've already done here. The point is, yeah, we're very dynamic, you know, explosively growing company, and we have to be at the forefront of AI adoption, obviously.[00:02:29] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you, your team kindly prepared some slides actually that we were gonna bring up on to, uh, the screen. I think I can, I can screen share, and then we can kind of go through some of the shocking stats that maybe, maybe put some numbers to what exactly is going on. So here we have, uh- An internal AI tool adoption chart.What are we looking at here? What ?[00:02:54] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah, this is very interesting statistics. Uh, this is number of daily active workers, you know, think of, uh, DAO, basically the active users of-[00:03:05] swyx: Yeah ...[00:03:05] Mikhail Parakhin: AI tool as a percentage of all the people in the company, right? And then- Yeah ... different AI tools. And, uh, you could see two things here is that one is the green is total.Uh, green is just total. So you could see that it approaches really % by now. It's hard not to do your job now without interacting deeply, at least with one tool. You could see another interesting thing is just as many people commented in December was the phase transition when suddenly models gotten good enough that, that everything took off and started growing.Uh, it, it was many people noticed that the thing is that small improvements accumulated into this big change in Sep- December roughly timeframe.[00:03:52] swyx: Yeah.[00:03:52] Mikhail Parakhin: The other thing I would claim you could see is that, uh, CLI-based tools and tools that don't require you to look at the code becoming more popular, and you could see, yeah, various versions of, uh, Cloud Code and Codex and Pi and internal development tools taking off.Uh, exactly, yeah, uh, and blue is our River, just internal agent for coding, where tools, uh, that require IDEs such as, uh, GitHub, Copilot or Cursor, they're not exactly shrinking, but they're not growing as fast. Like, uh, red, red line is, is the IDE kind of tools. So you could see that they're, they're not experiencing as, as fast of a growth.[00:04:37] swyx: As I understand it, basically, every employee has their choice, right? Of choose whatever tool you use, and then you're just kind of doing a, a daily sur-survey or something.[00:04:47] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly. And, uh, we- Yeah ... the, the push is to get your job done, you can use any tool, and we effectively fund unlimited tokens for everybody.Uh, we, we do, we do try to control the models that, uh, people use, but from the bottom, not from top. Like we basically say, “Hey, please don't use anything less than Opus four point six.”[00:05:09] swyx: Oh .[00:05:10] Mikhail Parakhin: Some people, some people end up using GPT five point four extra high. Some people use Opus four point six. Um, uh, you know, uh, there are some, uh, there are plus and minuses in going for full one million context window versus not.But, uh, we try to discourage people from using anything less than that.[00:05:28] swyx: Yeah, yeah. Got it, got it. Uh, I mean, uh, that's, you know... The, the next chart here, it really kind of shows the expansion and the sort of December twenty twenty-five inflection, right? That, uh, people are using a lot of tokens. I think it's also really interesting that no one was kind of abusing it in twenty twenty-five.Like it was- Had comparatively, uh, to this year, there was almost no growth. I mean, it's still like, you know, probably, probably gave fifty percent.[00:05:56] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. This is just a different scale. It's still exponential- Yeah, yeah ...growth at just a different- ...rate of expansion. Uh, there was inflection point, and Sean, I would claim the, the super interesting part here is that you could see that the distribution becoming more and more skewed.Yes. The top percentiles grow faster. So that means- Yeah ...the people in the top ten percentile, they, their consumption grows faster than seventy-five and so forth. So, uh, the distribution skews more and more towards the highest users, which is... I don't know what it tells me. It's like it feels not ideal, to be honest.Or maybe it's okay. We'll see.[00:06:36] swyx: Why does it feel not ideal? Is, is it because of, um, quantity over quality, or what's the concern?[00:06:42] Mikhail Parakhin: Because take it to the limit. That means, you know, if, if this rate of separation continued- Ah, yes ...a year, there will be one person consuming all the tokens. So it's just, it's kinda strange.[00:06:54] swyx: Yeah, I mean, um, uh, I, I think internal like teaching and all that, uh, will, will help sort of distribute things more widely. But in, in the early days, of course, the people who are sort of more AI-pilled will obviously find more ways to use it than the people who are less AI-pilled. Maybe let's, let's call it that.I'll just, I'll just kinda quickly, uh, pause from the, the... You know, we will go back to the rest of the slides, but I just wanna, um, review, you know, there are a lot of CTOs of, of large companies like yourself where they're all considering some kind of token budget, right? Like I think it's something, something that Jensen Huang has been talking about, where like if your 200K engineer is not using 100K of tokens every year, like they're, they're underutilizing coding agents.Of course, Jensen Huang would say that, but like it seems a very quantity over quality approach and like some, some people are basically saying like, well, is this comparable to judging engineer quality by lines of code, right? Which we also know is like kind of flawed, but better than nothing. So I, I don't know if you have like a sort of management take here on, on how to view this kind of, uh, metrics.[00:08:02] Mikhail Parakhin: Well, I mean, you're, you're baiting me. I, I like... This is my favorite topic. Uh, if you let me, I'll probably talk for two hours on just this. I have a lot of things to say. Like I do think Jensen gotten a lot of bad press saying, “Oh, of course you're, you know, this, uh, the- ...the cake seller says you don't need enough cakes.”You know? Like, of course. Uh, but, uh, I actually, uh, think that's undeserved. I think he, he's actually right. Uh, I do think- He,[00:08:33] swyx: he's directionally correct.[00:08:35] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. Yeah. He's directionally correct for sure. Uh-[00:08:37] swyx: Who knows what the right number is? Yeah.[00:08:39] Mikhail Parakhin: The thing that I do Uh, want to say, and this is something that we learned through trial and error and very important is like two things.One is that it's not about just consuming tokens. Uh, you can consume tokens and, and in fact, the anti-pattern is running multiple agents, too many agents in parallel that don't communicate with each other. That's almost useless, uh, compared to just fewer agents and burns tokens very efficiently. Uh, setting up the right critique loop, especially with the high quality models, where one agent does something, the other one, ideally with a different model, critiques it, uh, suggests ways to improve it, the agent redoes it with this critique and, and so it takes much longer.So people don't like it because latency goes up. You know, they, they have to wait until this debate is happening. But, uh, the quality of the code is much higher. And another thing, just since you mentioned like, look, uh, uh, yeah, the overall budget is just like, uh, lines of codes. Lines of codes are exploding for everybody right now, or partially because AI is really mover balls, but partially just because AI can write a lot more code, you know, doesn't get tired.And so you have to have to have a very strong narrow waist during PR review. Otherwise, just the number of bugs will go through the roof. It's, uh, it's this unexpected consequence of the just volume trumping everything. I would claim by now good model writes code on average with fewer bugs than, than the average human.But since they write so much more of it, like more of it will make it into production. So you have to- You still[00:10:26] swyx: have[00:10:26] Mikhail Parakhin: more bugs. Yeah. Have to have a very rigorous PR reviews, also automated of course. But, uh, yeah, that to spend a lot budget there. Like this, this for me, for me, actually, the important metric is the ratio of budget spent during code generation versus, uh, spent, uh, expensive tokens like GPT, uh, five point four Pro or, uh, uh, Deep Think from Gemini, you know, checking on PR reviews.[00:10:55] swyx: Yeah, totally. Uh, I noticed in your chart you didn't have any review tools. Do you just use like, like let's say a Claude code to review tools? Or do you have another set of review tools like the Greptiles, the Code Rabbits, uh, Devin Reviews has a review tool. I don't know if you've had those specialist review tools.[00:11:13] Mikhail Parakhin: You are a little bit jumping on my store tool right now because the graphs I was only showing public tools. Uh, uh, the-- I haven't found a good PR review tool that, that does what I think should be done. And, uh, partially my, my thinking is because it's so... It just goes against both what people feel like emotionally they prefer and, uh, some of the, uh, you know, frankly Even business models that, that the companies run.At peer review tool, uh, time, you want to run the largest models. That means, I don't know, Codex or, or, uh, Cloud Code is not gonna cut it. You need to have pro-level models if you really want to, uh, stand the tide of bots from going into production. And you need us to spend a lot of time, the models taking turns, but you don't want, like, a big swarm of, uh, of, uh, agents.So in fact, you end up in a different dual-dualistic world where you generate not that many tokens. You, in fact, generate few tokens, but it takes f-a long time because these are expensive models taking turns rather than many, many agents trying to do many things in parallel. So that's, that's why I feel like I haven't found good tools, so we are using our own for peer review for now.[00:12:33] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I think a lot of companies are building their own, uh, especially to their needs, right?[00:12:38] Mikhail Parakhin: Mm-hmm.[00:12:38] swyx: Um, I, uh, you also have a chart here going back to the slides on, uh, PR merge growth, where we're now at thirty percent, uh, month on month rather than ten percent. Uh, and also the, the estimated complexity is going up.You know, this is productivity, right? ‘Cause y- presumably there's more stuff going into the code base and more, more features getting worked on. I'm curious about the backlog, right? Like the, the, the-- I actually don't mind a pro-level model taking an hour or two hours to review my PR, because I've dealt with humans who take a week to review my PR, right?And I keep pinging them on Slack, “Hey, hey, review my PR.” So, you know, I think there's some trade-off here where, like, it still doesn't make sense.[00:13:18] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly. That, that's exactly m-my point. Uh, that on one hand, you can tolerate longer latencies at, uh, PR. On the other hand, like right now, the real problem is not in spending time waiting for PR.It's real problem is since there's so much more code than- Yeah ... uh, probability of at least some tests failing going up, and then you, like, keep de-failing, then you have to find the offending PR, evict it, retest it without that PR, and so deployment cycle becomes much longer. Uh, so it actually, in terms of the overall time to deploy, it's total time savings if you spend more time on a longer model, like thinking for an hour, because then, then you, you don't have to spend all that time during testing and rolling, you know, rolling back the deployment.[00:14:03] swyx: Yeah, totally. That's still worth it. You know, you don't look at the individual, look at the aggregate, and look at the, the, the change in the aggregate system.[00:14:11] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly.[00:14:11] swyx: I'm kind of curious if, like, there's this PR mentality and, like, c-- the, the, the CICD paradigm will be changed eventually. Some people are like, obviously a lot of people want new GitHub, but I even wonder if, like, Git is the problem, right?Like, is that the bottleneck? Is the concept of a PR a bottleneck? Do you guys use stack diffs? I don't know if, uh, that's a, like, a merge queue stack diff type of thing.[00:14:34] Mikhail Parakhin: We, we use, we use Stacks, we u- we use Graphite. We worked with, uh, Graphite a lot. Uh, so we use Stack, uh, PRs. I think, uh, like that's clearly the overall CICD in general, and the interaction with the code repository right now is the, clearly the sort of the, the main issue and the bottleneck for us, uh, and highest top of mind.I would say we probably need a different metaphor or different whole design of how to process it in new agentic world. I haven't seen anything dramatically better yet. I, I think everybody right now is just trying to keep their head above the water ‘cause, ‘cause there, there's so many PRs and then everybody's CICD pipelines start creaking, the, the times are increasing, the number of bugs slipping by increasing, and you have to, have to clap on down.And so we are a little bit in this situation when we need to first stabilize that story and then start thinking, hey, what, what it could be a completely different and new world, which I haven't... I know some people working on it. I haven't seen something, like anything super compelling yet, but clearly the old thing were designed for humans will need to be morphed into something new.[00:15:53] swyx: One of the thing that I, I think about is kind of like the merge conflict is basically a global mutex on the whole system, right? And in, in hu- in human organizations, we do have something like that. It's the company standup. But like, other than that, it's like it's actually fitting for us to be somewhat decentralized, somewhat plugged into one stream of information source, but somewhat lossy.Like it's okay, you know, that, that not every delivery is like atomic consistency. Like we're not dealing with a database sometimes.[00:16:27] Mikhail Parakhin: This is a very good point, uh, because since humans don't write code too fast, you know that global mutex is not too bad. Once you-[00:16:36] swyx: Yes ...[00:16:37] Mikhail Parakhin: start writing code at the speed of machine, it becomes the, you know, the bottleneck.Then what do you do? Maybe, and I can't believe I'm saying this because I, I'm long-- lifelong opponent of, uh, microservices, and I always thought that was, like, a really bad idea. And now that you're saying it, like, maybe in new guys like microservices will make a comeback, you know, because then you, you can ship things independently in tiny things and, and the managing all that complexity automatically will be much easier.I don't know. Like, we'll s-- we'll have to see.[00:17:10] swyx: Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the Microsoft or, or Shopify thing is, but I, I read this paper from Google where they have a monorepo that deploys into microservices, right? And then, uh, the other concept that I think about a lot is the Chaos Monkey concept from, from Netflix.Being able to create, like, this robust system where, um, uh, you know, you, you have the service discovery, you have the, uh, the independent, independent microservices discovery and, and, uh, you know, probably going to be a fair amount of duplication. That's how an organic system sort of scales, uh, that, that you have that...I don't know how you call it. Slack? Robustness? Depend-- uh, d-duplication. I, I, I forget the-- I, I'm-- And this-- those-- these are not exactly the terms- Hmm ... I'm looking for, but I c-can't really think of the words. Okay. I was gonna go into Tangent and Tangle. Uh, so, uh, we, we sort of discussed the overall stats that, uh, Shopify has.Uh, but, you know, I, I think some, some pretty cool stuff that you guys are working on is your ML experimentation, uh, and your, your sort of auto tr-research training pipeline. Presumably you're much closer to this one because it's, it's a sort of personal hobby of yours. How, how would you explain them in, together?I thought we have a slide that, like, uh, has the s- the system diagram.[00:18:24] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. Tangle first and then Tangent as a-[00:18:27] swyx: Yeah ...[00:18:28] Mikhail Parakhin: as a thing on top of Tangle. And, uh, Tangle is the third generation, I claim, of, uh, systems of, uh, running any data processing, but a bit with a skew for ML experiments, but not necessarily. Any sort of data processing tasks where you need to iterate, share, and you have scale so that you want maximum efficiency.You know how, like, normally you would work, you would-- Imagine you're a data scientist or an ML practitioner, you would get Jupiter notebooks or, or maybe you would get, uh, you know, Pyth- your Python scripts, and you would manage the data, and you produce those TSV files, and you put them in some JFS or something.Then you would notice that, oh, it has this, uh, weird missing values. You go and write another script that, uh, goes and replaces them with, uh-[00:19:20] swyx: Ah ...[00:19:21] Mikhail Parakhin: dash S. And then, then you, then you run some, some, uh, “Oh, I need to filter bots.” And so you run some light GBM model that, uh, removes the bots. And then, then you like-- And then you, you kind of like get into shape, and then you start experimenting, and you run multiple experiments, and then you're like, “Oh my God,” like, “this experiment is worse.”You undo, and you cannot get to previous result. And like, “Ah, what did I do?” Like that. Again, then, then you finally like get everything working. Then you like start throwing it over the fence to production. You, you replicate it, those things don't work, and then sometimes you like don't notice that you forgot some feature naming and the, the features don't match.But then, like imagine you, you did everything, and then six months later you're like, have to repeat it because now there's more data, or you wanted to do another pass, and you're like, “What, what did I do?” Or like, or like, “This script crashes now,” or the, “the path has changed.” And then, then you're trying to, like you spend another month just doing ar- digital archeology on your own, you know, history, right?Now multiply that by many, many teams. Now imagine you got an intern that you wanna ramp up. Now you have to show that intern, “Oh, you know, look, here's the folder, there's the scripts, you know, ask your cloud agent to do, and then, uh, to, to figure it out.” And then cloud agent does something, and then you're, “Ah, yeah, right, right, it was the wrong folder.I forgot to tell you, I actually have this other thing I forgot myself.” And, and that's, that's the, like, the daily life we all, uh, all know it, uh, if, if you're a data scientist, machine practitioner, ma- machine learning practitioner or, uh, or even like any data managing, uh, person.[00:21:00] swyx: Yeah. So I, I used to do this, uh, f- uh, on the quant finance side, uh, in, in my hedge fund.So we did this before Airflow, and then, uh, obviously Airflow came along and, uh, then more recently Dagster, uh, I would say is like, in my mind, what I would use for that shape of problem, uh, where you had to materialize assets and create a pipeline.[00:21:19] Mikhail Parakhin: And that's, that's very good segue because... So Airflow is great, but Airflow is more about you, you have something and you wanna repeatedly run it in production on schedule.It's less about you as a team developing things and being able to share, and you grabbing the standard pipeline and saying, “Hey, I wanna change this tiny little component in the huge sea of data processing, and I don't wanna-- I wanna run ten experiments on this, and I wanna do hyperparameter optimization.”All that is very hard to do with Airflow. It's very easy to do with Tango. Tango is m- more about, it's everything about group of people Running experiments, it might be agents too nowadays. Uh, running experiments cheaply, collaborating, sharing results. Uh, you don't need to understand fully. You, you grab-- you clone somebody else's experiment or somebody else's pipeline, uh, run, uh, change small piece, run it, be, like, get it to production state, and then ship in one click.So then the... You don't have to port it into any other system to, to run in production. You can just run the same experiment. It's, it's fully production ready. And, and it's, uh, it has lots of... Again, as I said, it's third generation system. The original one was, I would claim there was Ether and then, uh, at least in my career, Ether was the first, first, uh, that pioneered this type of approach.And then there was, uh, Nirvana, which, uh, uh, at Yandex, which did kind of sec-second take on this. And now this one aggregates the, the learnings from all of those and, and Airflow as well to, to get to the state where you try it, it, it feels kind of magical. Uh, ‘cause now everything is based on content, uh, hashes.So even if the version changed, but if the output didn't change, nothing is being rerun. It's very efficient. If you... Multiple people start experiment that needs the same sort of data preprocessing, it's not repeated multiple times. It's automatically done only once. If you start ten experiments that all require, you know, some, some data preparation first as the first step, and you don't have to coordinate for that.Like, you don't have to know that other people are starting it. You now, it's very easy compos-, uh, composability, any language you can u- uh, you wanna use, and it's very visual. So you can see immediately, you can edit it easily, you can assemble small things with just even mouse clicks if you want to, and, uh, share, clone.And everybody knows also it's fully kind of static in the sense that we rerun it second time, it will exactly have the same results. Like, you will never have to do digital archeology. So full versioning and everything is also there.[00:24:06] swyx: Uh, so, so people can, uh... It's open source. Go to the GitHub repo and, and, uh, check it out.Uh, and it is also a really good, uh, blog post about it. I think all these is, like, really appealing. The, the, the, the thing that I think sells me the most about it is that, um, sort of development to production transition, right? Which I think, um, a lot of people haven't really solved that, uh, strictly, right?Like, we develop really, really well in, in Python notebooks, but then, you know, that's obviously not a sort of production ready process. I think that, like, any way in which that is solved, I think is, is very appealing. Then the other thing that you mentioned, which also raised my eyebrows, was content-based caching, which you mentioned is, is, um, you know, is ve-very much, uh, um, a sort of efficiency measure about, uh, you know, just like recalculation only on, on sort of content addressing Which I think makes sense.Uh, it surprised me that the savings could be this much, but maybe I just haven't worked at your scale where there's so much duplication, uh, that people just rerun because they change a single ID upstream.[00:25:10] Mikhail Parakhin: It does, yeah. But it's not only you rerun. The, the main savings are coming from the fact that you ran it, you got your job done, and you moved on.Then- Yeah ... somebody else in some department you don't know existed runs the same task, but on a newer version.[00:25:27] swyx: Yeah.[00:25:27] Mikhail Parakhin: Like right now, you can't, in, in most of the organizations, you can't even find out about it so that you can't even measure that you're spending that time twice, right? Here- Yeah ... if everybody's on Tango, that's detected automatically and detected that the output is the same.And then for that person, all it looks like is like experiment just suddenly moved, jumped forward, right? Uh, uh- Yeah ... so that's because, because the, there's network effect of multiple people helping each other.[00:25:51] swyx: Yeah. This is one of those things where it's designed to be a platform from the beginning rather than an individual developer's tool from the beginning, right?And, and everything's gonna streams down from there. That is the sort of Tango, uh, orchestrator, and it's, it manages jobs. We've seen a few versions of this, and this is obviously, uh, uh, the sort of, uh, unique approaches that you guys have, have, uh, figured out. And then there's Tangent.[00:26:14] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. And Tangent is basically an automatic auto research loop that can help and kind of do your work for you.Uh- ... you know, uh, effectively, effectively, Andrej Karpathy recently popularized it with auto research. Yes. Remember he said like he was, uh, speed running this, uh... Yeah, uh, you know the story. The, here we're basically bringing the same capability into Tango so that, uh, the, uh, Tangent can analyze it. It's just an agent that can run multiple experiments, figure out what can be changed, and keep on rerunning it, keep on modifying until, uh, maximizing some goal, some loss function, whatever you need to, to achieve.And in general, I would say if you're not using auto research-like approach in whatever you do, like literally whatever you do, then you're missing out. We saw at Shopify that taking like a wildfire, anything where you can put measurements can be done dramatically better. Our-[00:27:19] swyx: Mm-hmm ...[00:27:20] Mikhail Parakhin: uh, speed of, uh, templatization HTML, uh, completely new UX tem- uh, templatization of, uh, reducing latency for liquid themes.Uh, we-- Our, uh, search, uh, recently we moved from It's hard even, uh, quote from eight hundred QPS to forty-two hundred QPS with the same quality just by pure optimizations and not a research loop that kept running and changing code in our index serve on the same number of machines, just increasing the throughput.We, we managed to improve the quality of gisting and machine learning process. Uh, you know, gisting is the prompt compression technique that[00:27:59] swyx: allows for[00:28:00] Mikhail Parakhin: lower latency and, and lower and, uh, actually higher quality slightly. So like literally whatever different walks of life, and it doesn't have to be AI related.Uh, we, we had a reduction in, uh, storage because the agents would go and find data sets that clearly are derivative, uh, and then you don't need to store things twice. You know, we, we, we found somewhat embarrassingly that it was one of the largest tables was hashing random IDs into another random ID, and we literally- Oofput only one. So it was translating, yeah, two random IDs hashed[00:28:36] swyx: into[00:28:37] Mikhail Parakhin: each. So, so[00:28:37] swyx: it has access to the code as well, so it can, it can check the, like what, what the hell is it doing?[00:28:42] Mikhail Parakhin: So there, there cou- it could be run in two levels. You, uh, you know, at the superficial level, it could just use ex-existing components and, uh, reshuffle them.Uh, you know, like you can grab- Yeah ... uh, XGBoost, and you can grab some, some Py- PyTorch module, and then can grab some, you know, grab another tools and, and combine them. At a deeper level, since Tangle is all sort of CLI based underneath you, every, every component is a wrapped really CLI, uh, call and a YAML file, it can analyze code and create new components and, and, uh, keep on iterating as well.So, so you can, you can both have quick modifications of existing t- uh, pipelines with the, with components that are already there pre-baked, or you can create new components, uh, and-[00:29:29] swyx: Yeah ...[00:29:29] Mikhail Parakhin: keep iterating on those. So auto research is, again, this is probably the, the thing I was excited the most in the last two months happening, and we see it taking like, like totally like a wildfire.Just, uh, everybody, every day, every... well, every day, every minute, I would, uh, have somebody Slack message saying, “Oh, look how much better I made it.” And, uh, it's all throughout the research.[00:29:53] swyx: Is this democratized in some way in, in the sense that like is it your ML, uh, engineers and researchers doing this, or is it your regular PMs and software engineers also have the ability to auto-- to use Tangent?[00:30:07] Mikhail Parakhin: This is an awesome question. Like, Tango in general and Tangent in particular are extremely democratizing. Like they- Yeah ... they are the main tools for- ‘Cause I don't[00:30:15] swyx: need the details.[00:30:16] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. Exactly. Initially used by ML and AI engineers, but then literally, as you said, PMs are like the highest user right now is one of PMs on our org, uh, Sartak and he was, he was number one by, by usage of, of this ‘cause they're just, uh, energetic and knowledgeable, and now it, it unlocks a lot of capability where you don't have to co-change code manually.[00:30:39] swyx: I mean, I mean, because it kind of cuts out the ML, ML engineer from the process because the, the, the PMs have the domain knowledge and the ability to think about, uh, from first principles about, okay, what, what results do I want? And they can-- they even have the access to the data that, that needs to go in.So it's like in some ways, like this is the magic black box that we've always wanted for, for training and, and for, uh, I guess, uh, uh, hill climbing, whatever.[00:31:04] Mikhail Parakhin: It's basically cloud code for your AI development- ... uh, situation, right? Like now, now you don't have to know exactly how algorithms work. You can just, uh, bring your domain knowledge and expertise and product knowledge and iterate within Tangent until you've gotten the results that you need.[00:31:21] swyx: In my previous roles, every time that someone has pitched AutoML, you know, I've always been like, “Uh, this is not, this is not gonna work. It's, you know, it's, it's always gonna be a flop.” Somehow it's working now. I mean, presumably the answer is now we have LLMs and it's good enough, right? It's, it's an emergent property that we can do auto research, but like, it doesn't feel that satisfying that how come we didn't do this before, right?Like we just did like parameter search and like, I don't know. That's maybe that's it.[00:31:48] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. Bayesian optimization and hyperparameter optimization was, was the one that, or facet of AutoML that was used very actively, which incidentally also built into, uh, Tango. But, you know, I know Patrice Simard very well, and, uh, he was such a, uh, such a proponent of AutoML, and he put, like literally spent careers trying to democratize it.Without LLMs, it just turned out to be very hard. Like it, you, you would have flexibility within certain narrow domain, but it was hard to wider scale, and now with LLMs suddenly it's like magic wand, and so suddenly everybody- ... is an AutoML expert.[00:32:28] swyx: Yeah, I, I think it's multiple things, right? Like I'm, I'm just gonna bring up the, the, the chart again, right?Like LLMs can do the monitoring very well. That is the very potentially unbounded, super unstructured. It can do the analysis very well, it can do the... Uh, and basically it is much more intelligence poured into every single step. Uh, there's maybe nothing structurally changed about AutoML, but this is just m-more intelligent and more unstructured.[00:32:53] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly.[00:32:54] swyx: Any flaws that you've run into? Like everyone is like drinking the Kool-Aid, oh my God, time savings, uh, you know, performance improvements. Like what, what, uh, issues have you have, uh, come up?[00:33:06] Mikhail Parakhin: This is really cool. It's not a solution to all the world's problems for sure. The limitations are usually the ones I-- And this is where we get into a bit of a subjective territory.Uh, I can only share what I've, I've seen so far, and I'm sure the situation, uh, is changing, and, you know, maybe after I say it, like many people will reach out and say, “Hey, what about this?” And you don't know that, and then, then we'll be probably right. But what I've seen is auto research is very good at doing kind of obvious things that you don't have bandwidth to do or you didn't notice or maybe you're not aware of like the-- some standard practices.It is not good at doing something completely out of distribution, something that, you know, you have to think for, for multiple days, uh, and, and do something like none of this. So, so it's, uh, I, uh, set an experiment once, uh, on, on my sort of, uh, hobby thing, and I let it run for, uh, ended up, uh, several weeks run, uh, you know, it's like full production kind of scale, so it, you know, slow runs and, and it ex-- it performed in the end, uh, over four hundred experiments, and only one was successful.I'm like, “Okay, that's, that's good.” But-[00:34:18] swyx: But it saved time.[00:34:19] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah, I saved time. Like it, it was the, that thing. Yeah, if I, if I were doing four hundred experiments myself, my betting average, as I said, would have been much higher, I'm sure. But also, first of all, it would take me like three years to do four hundred experiments.And, uh, I didn't have to do them. Like the machines were just, uh, the price of electricity did that. So, and I got one improvement, uh, that in, uh, my, my-- Honestly, when I was starting that experiment, my thinking was to go and show that, “Hey, Andre, maybe you just don't know how to optimize.” And I was super smart because in, in my pro-problem, it was optimized for many years, and it was like fully improved.Uh, and I didn't expect it, you know, auto research to find anything at all. Yet it did. So instead of making fun of Andre, I ended up, uh, a big, big supporter. Yeah, that's exactly the tweet. Yes.[00:35:10] swyx: You and Toby really, really go back and forth on-online a lot, which is really funny. Uh, think of it as, as an eval for the optimalness of the code it's running on.Uh, it's almost like it reminds me of like a Kolmogorov complexity thing, but, uh, I guess it's-- there's some optimal thing that you're trying to sort of reduce down to, I guess. Um, and so, so you, you, you know, you should congratulate yourself that you had, uh, you know, uh, ninety-nine percent, uh, optimality.[00:35:36] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly, yeah. I think Andre really deserves a lot of credit for popularizing this approach. This is, uh, this is incredibly, I think, powerful and cool and You know, the, uh, even him, him just mentioning it led to a lot of gains in a lot of places in the industry, so we should be thankful.[00:35:56] swyx: Yeah. I think he also has a just...I don't know what it is. Like, um, you know, it, it is a simple self-contained project that people can take and apply to other things, which is, is, is one thing, but also just the name. Just like somehow no one, no one managed to call their thing auto research. It's just naming things is very important. I think that that is mostly, uh, our coverage of Tango and, and, uh, Tangents.I think obviously, you know, there's a lot of, uh, ML infra at, at Shopify that people can, uh, dive into. We're about to go into SimGym, but before I do that, any, any other sort of broader comments around this whole effort? Like where is it, where is it leading to?[00:36:36] Mikhail Parakhin: As a segue to SimGym, like all those things start composing strongly.And, uh, you could see a huge unlock when you can look at each one of the tools and, and you see, oh, they're extremely useful. Uh, Tango is useful by itself. Auto Research is useful by itself. SimGym is useful by itself. If you combine all three, you create like synergetic effect. I think that's why we wanted to even, uh, cover them today is because this is something that if you go back even, you know, five years ago, would've been unthinkable.Uh, replicating that, uh, would, would be either incredibly costly or impossible, right? With probably thousands of people are required.[00:37:20] swyx: Well, we have serverless human, uh, serverless intelligence, right? Like, uh, so yes, you do have thousands of hu-- of, of intelligences, not just, not humans. And that's, that's close enough, right?Even if they're not AGI, they're, they're close enough to do the, the task that you need them to do. And, and, you know, that's, there's plenty for, for a lot of routine work, knowledge work. Okay, let's get into SimGym. Um, this is one of those things I, I was surprised to see actually it's apparently your, uh, one of your most popular launches, and I think something that, uh, I think Sim AI, I think Yunjun Park, who did the Smallville thing, there's a very small cottage industry of people trying to do like the simulate customer thing.I think a lot of people maybe don't super trust this yet because they're like, well, obviously they would just do what you prompt them to do, right? But maybe just think, uh, tell us about the sort of inspiration or origin story.[00:38:10] Mikhail Parakhin: That's exactly actually the thing I wanted to cover, because if you don't have the historical data, all you can do is prompt a-agents in a vacuum, and they will do exactly what you prompt them to do.In fact, when I first proposed it, and this is a bit of, um, my brainchild initially, if I, I can boast, even Toby said like, “But wouldn't they, they just repeat what, what you tell them?” And, uh, but I'm like, “Yes, except Shopify has decades of history of how people made changes and what there is, uh, there, what it resulted in terms of sales.”So now what we can do is we can-- we have this... It's not, it's a noisy data. There's a small, usually websites, uh, you know, like things, things are never in isolation. It's almost never AB experiment. It's always AA experiment when there's has two meanings, but basically, you know, in different time you run two different things.But if you aggregate in general, uh, like everything together, and you apply, uh, denoising and collaborative filtering like approach, you can extract a very clear signal. And then you can optimize your agents. And that's why it took so long. It took almost a year of that optimization of just us sitting and fiddling, and, and we had this internal goals of correlation of hitting-- internal goal was to hit zero point seven correlation with, uh, add to cart events, for example.Like that, that if we run real AB test experiment, that it should, it should go and, and rep-uh, replicate, uh, same sort of success that, that humans had or lack thereof. And it, it took forever, and I don't think that's easily replicatable because, uh, like who else would have that data? You have to have this historic, you know, decades, uh, worth of data.And now, now the, like the other thing you need is in-infrastructure and the scale, right? Because, uh, w- again, what we found, uh, stat sig results, you need to run a lot of simulations, a lot of agents, and, and it's-- Those are expensive things. Like you're, you're making actions in the browser because you want a real friction.You want to, to be able to get the image like of what humans will see because you wanna, uh, detect effects like, “Hey, if I make my images larger, will I have more sales or l- uh, fewer sales?” And like usually people's intuition here, by the way, is that I increase my images, I will have more because they look nicer.You know, designers all look sparse and big images. Like usually your sales tank, right? But, but, uh, you know, from HTML, all the characters look the same only the, the size tag looks different, right? So it's very hard. So you have to take visual information, you have to run this in simulated browser environment on the big farm and, and of course, you have to have, uh, like very, very expensive model, good model with multi-model model.So all this it's-- is what's taken so long and, uh, to share my personal fail a little bit there, Sean, is like, you know, we always had this bias to-- for like large company bias. You know, we always, uh, whenever you-- we do, we're like, “Hey, we'll run an experiment,” right? We make, make a change, and we will run an experiment and then, uh, see, uh, see which one's better or like, “No, this is worse,” and most of them are worse, so you discard it and keep iterating, hill climbing.And we're like, “Oh, like smaller merchants, they cannot get stat sig results. They cannot really run experiments simply because, you know, in a week there would be not enough data for them.” So we thought from this perspective. What we didn't realize is that most people don't have A and B, they just have one thing, and they need suggestions of What A and B should be.So, uh, we first build this, hey, we run simulation on two separate teams and, and, uh, say, “Hey, which one is better?” We then morphed it into, and very recently just released it, when you have just your site, your theme, we run over it and we say, “Hey, here's what predicted values of, of, uh, uh, conversions are, and here's how we think you should modify it to increase your conversions.”And then circling back to what you started with, the proof is in the pudding. Like, if we are not correlating with reality, like, people will not be using it. And, uh, thankfully, we see literally every day more users than the previous day. So, so right now, uh, right now- It's working. Yeah. I'm-- Right now my problem is how to pay for it all because the so our major thing is how to optimize the LLMs, do distillation, how to run the headless browsers, uh, and handful browsers, uh, uh, cheaper so that we can accommodate the increase in traffic.[00:42:47] swyx: Yeah. I, I understand that you, uh, you published a lot of technical detail at GTC, so I was just gonna bring it up a little bit. I think s- was this in, in con-conjunction with some kind of GTC presentation? Or something like that, right?[00:42:59] Mikhail Parakhin: Well, we, yeah, we, we did it in several place, but yeah, we had the engineering- Yeahblog, uh, as well. Yeah.[00:43:05] swyx: Yeah. So you're running, uh, GPT OSS. Uh,[00:43:08] Mikhail Parakhin: the, this is an older version. You know, now we run multimodal model. But yeah- Yeah ... GPT OSS, we still run GPT OSS as well for[00:43:15] swyx: And then you have the VMs, and you also have browser-based. I really like this one where it you said, “It violates almost every assumption that standard LLM serving is designed for.”And then you had like, basically orders of magnitude differences between everything.[00:43:29] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly. Which is, which, uh, which was, you know, a bit of a challenge to implement, like when, like even simple things. Uh, be- since it violates all the assumptions, for example, multi-instance GPUs, like MIGs don't work as well.But we needed, uh, to get MIG to work because, ‘cause otherwise it's way too expensive. And so we had to deal with the, yeah, with, uh, lots of infrastructure and, and, uh, work with, uh, uh, Fireworks and CentML, uh, you know, to help with optimizations and browser-based, as you mentioned. Yeah, like, takes a village.[00:44:04] swyx: Okay. So there's a lot of like, I guess, experimentation in the infrastructure so far, and you've published more or less what you have here. I guess I'm, I'm less familiar with CentML. I, I don't do, uh, that much work in this, this part of the stack. But why was it the sort of preferred instance platform?[00:44:22] Mikhail Parakhin: There are really three probably top companies. There used to be, uh, uh- Three top companies, uh, at least I was aware of that did, uh, LM optimization. You know, together Fireworks and Santa ML, not necessarily in that order. Santa ML recently got acquired by NVIDIA. Uh, what they did is if you have a model and you want to optimize it to a specific prof-- uh, profile of usage, uh, they would go and do it.And, uh, we work with, with those companies, uh, this was work particularly in with Santa ML and NVIDIA to get them the best possible results out of it. And, and sometimes you, you have to retune depending on, like sometimes you want the maximum throughput, sometimes you want minimal latency, sometimes you want like the cheapest, right?And, yeah, or some combination. And so yeah, these are people who would come and help you.[00:45:14] swyx: I see. I see. Yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with these people for the LLM, you know, autoregressive stack. But the other interesting category of these optimizers is also the diffusion people, whereas like Fel and, you know, uh, Pruna recently has come up a lot as well, which I think is like really underappreciated, uh, at least by myself, because I, I thought, oh, all the workload would be LLMs, but actually there's a lot of diffusion as well.[00:45:38] Mikhail Parakhin: Exactly.[00:45:38] swyx: There's a lot here, so I, I, I... it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's hard to cover. But I, I do think like people underappreciate the importance of customer simulation, basically. I think this is something that I'm candidly still getting to terms with. Uh, you know, uh, you also-- your team also like prepared this, like, really nice diagram.Uh, I, I assume this is AI generated.[00:46:00] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah, it looks-[00:46:01] swyx: Maybe it's not.[00:46:01] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah, it looks, uh, Gemini-ish. Yeah, but, uh, uh, honestly, I, I don't know where, where the hell they generated. It looks, look, uh, looks like it's, uh, Google. But the interesting part, John, that, that, uh, we haven't covered, but I, I wanted to mention is if your store had previous customers, rather than it's a new store, you're like new merchant just launching things, it helps tremendously in just correlation and forecast.Yeah, we take your previous, uh, customer's behavior, and we create agents that replicate those specific distribution of, of customers that you get, and then we a- we apply those to your changes, and then that, that raised raw, you know, the re-- uh, just correlation with the add to cart events or to-- with conversion or whatever it, it, it may be, uh, quite dramatically.So, uh, replicating humans in general seems like an interesting, cool challenge.[00:46:58] swyx: As a shareholder, I think this is the-- like if people are Shopify shareholders, they should really deeply understand this because this is basically the moat. The, the more you use Shopify, the more it will just automatically improve, right?Like you're, you're doing the job for them.[00:47:13] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah, that's what we started with. Like, uh- ... uh, otherwise, if you're just a startup, I wouldn't do it if, uh, you know, if it was my startup because Without the data, it, yeah, as, as you said, it's, it's exactly the case that, uh, whatever you say in prompt, that's, that's what the agents will be doing.[00:47:30] swyx: The statistician in me wants to like really satisfy the sort of, um, statistical intuition, I guess. Um, to me it's kind of, uh, the, the word that comes to mind is, um, ergodicity. Uh, so let's say a, a customer takes this path, customer takes this path, customer takes this path, right? Um, the... In my mind, the way I explain it is like, okay, here, here's the ninety-five percentile, here's the five percentile, and here's the median, right?Um, but to me, what SimGym is potentially doing is that it can, uh, modify... It can sort of model the sort of in-between sort of journeys as well, that, that maybe are dependent on the previous states. This may be like a very RL-type conclusion where like basically the summary statistics, if you only did naive AB testing, you only have the, the statistics at, at, at a certain point, and you only judge based on the sort of overall summary statistics.But here you can actually model trajectories. Does that make sense? Or-[00:48:31] Mikhail Parakhin: That makes total sense because like, well, that, that makes even more sense that maybe even you realize bec- because-[00:48:38] swyx: Okay. Please,[00:48:38] Mikhail Parakhin: please. Yes ... we do-- Yeah. The, so internally, uh, we have this system, we talked about it briefly once at NeurIPS.We have a huge HSTU-based system that models the whole companies, uh, and their possible paths. And like- Yeah ... what you are, what you are showing, like actually at any point of time, you can either model the user's behavior or you mo- can also think about, uh, the whole merchant as a company, as the entity that acts in the world.You can model that as well. And then you can do, can do counterfactuals. In your graph, like in your blue graph, uh, if you're... Imagine in the center there, uh, somewhere in the middle, you would have an intervention. I give that person a coupon, or I don't know, I send a personal thank you card, or give a discount in some- somewhere.And then you can, uh, then you can do forward rollouts from that counterfactual. So what would have happened with that intervention or without the intervention? And you can even ch- change where that intervention, uh, in time can happen, right? Like some- where, where in this journey. So we, we do this at the Shopify scale for our merchants, and then if we notice that something that they can be fixing, like there's a strong counterfactual, like we have Shopify policy, they basically get a notification like, “Hey, we think your...something is wrong with your-” I don't know, Canadian sales. Like, uh, it looks like it's misconfigured. Here's what you need to do. Or do you think like, uh, you have to set up this campaign with these parameters? And we do that at the buyer level to literally offer discounts or cashback or, or things to buyers.So this is-- I'm getting very excited. Like this is my sort of area of, uh, interest, I guess, and, and hobby. But being able to m-model something complex as human beings or companies and model counterfactuals on it, where you can have interventions in the future and optimize when to make intervention, what kind inter-- uh, what kind of intervention to make.It's such an unlock that previously was completely impossible. Like the-- it was, it was always dreamed of, but never... Like how would you even simulate it without LLMs or HTUs? I think very, very exciting times.[00:50:59] swyx: I just wanted to, uh, to maybe illustrate this. I, I'm not the best illustrator, but I, I am a conceptual statistics guy.And y-you know, you cannot just do this. Like this is a dimensionality AB test doesn't do, right? Like, uh, because it doesn't have the, the, the change over time, uh, stochastic nature, uh, and it doesn't have the sort of contextual like... Here's all the context to this point. Um, okay, cool. Um, that's SimGym.You're, you're gonna burn a lot of tokens on this thing. But you're, you're one of the, the only scale platforms in the world that can, uh, that can do this across a huge variety of workloads, right? I'm even curious on a sort of human, uh, research level of like, well, do, does retail behave d-differently from like clothing sales?D-does that behave differently from electronic sales? I, I don't know. I don't know what else you guys... The Kardashian shoppers, do they differ from like people who buy, uh, I don't know, cars and, uh, whatever.[00:51:55] Mikhail Parakhin: Well, very different, and different sensitivities and different modes of, uh, shopping and, and different levels of what's important.Now, to-totally, you can do aggregations at, uh, at a store level. You can do aggregations at a different, uh, category level. I don't know if, uh, you know, for our statisticians among us, I couldn't believe, but we-- recently we're looking at it, and we had to bring back, uh, CRPs, you know, Chinese restaurant process.It's a, like, way of aggregating and, like, naturally grow clustering. So across... Specifically to answer questions that, uh, like you were just posing on how, how if, if buyers behave different categories. And I'm like, “I haven't seen CRP since two thousand and one.” It's[00:52:37] swyx: so What? It's so- What is... No, I haven't, I haven't seen this.No. This is not in my training. Uh,[00:52:44] Mikhail Parakhin: but, but yeah, it, uh, uh, it actually, like the, the-- there was a very popular kind of theory, popular neurips HTML circles in early two thousands, uh, kind of nice. And now, now it has practical applications, uh- Yeah ... that we were resurrecting.[00:53:03] swyx: Yeah, amazing. Uh, I, I can see, I can see how this is like a, uh, a fun job for you where you get to apply all these things.Um, yeah, yeah, so super cool. Super cool. So, okay, so, so anyone who, who knows what CRPs are and has always wanted to use them at work, uh, they should, they should definitely join Shopify. Okay, so w-we have a lot and but I, I'm, I'm being mindful of the time. I, I do wanted to, to sort of cover some other things.Um, I-I'll give you a choice, UCP or Liquid?[00:53:30] Mikhail Parakhin: Liquid. I think, I think on UCP, you know, like UCP is very important for us and, and it just we are-- UCP, we have a structured, uh, discussions, and you can read about them, and we have, uh, blog posts, and we have a big release this week, in fact, like with our catalog.Oh,[00:53:46] swyx: okay.[00:53:46] Mikhail Parakhin: Uh, yeah,[00:53:46] swyx: but- Le-I mean, we, we can, we can discuss the, the, the release briefly because we'll release this after the-- after it's already announced so whatever. There's a catalog that you guys are doing?[00:53:55] Mikhail Parakhin: Yeah. So we are, we are- Okay ... we are bringing in capabilities of a whole, uh, Shopify catalog.Basically, you now you can search for products, you can do lookups by specific ID, you can do bulk lookups when you need to bring m-multiple products. You don't need to know in ad-in advance what you're trying to show or to sell or check out. Like, you can now, you can now have this decided at, at runtime, and this big area for investment for us for both non-personalized and personalized searches, trying to provide basically a win-window into whole universe of products that are being sold everywhere in the world.And Shopify is really not exactly, but almost like a super set of any-anything being sold. Now we are bringing it into UCP and, uh, and, uh, identity linking is another big thing for us, uh, so that you, you can use, uh, like Google or whatever, whatever identity you have, uh, they're minimizing friction.[00:54:56] swyx: Yeah. So[00:54:57] Mikhail Parakhin: yeah, big release for us.But Liquid AI of course we never talk about, and the problem might be more, more aligned with what we d-discussed previously on this chat.[00:55:07] swyx: Sure. The main thing that everyone understands about Liquid is that it is inspired by Worm, and I still don't know why. I'm curious on your explanation. I think you, you, uh, you can make things very approachable.And also I think like what is the potential of like the, the level of efficiency that you get out of Liquid?[00:55:23] Mikhail Parakhin: You- we all familiar with transformer architectures. And, uh, for the longest time, there was a competing architecture, it's called the state space models. So, so Sams, uh, you know, Chris, Chris Reyes, one of the pioneers and, and lots of startups, uh, trying to make those realities.They have, uh, significant benefits being main being, uh, being much faster and, uh, lower footprint and not quadratic in length, you know, sort of, uh, linear in, in, uh, in your context length. But with state space models- They never quite made it. Like they're used-- They have, uh, certain niches when they thrive, their hybrid architectures are useful, but they never quite made it.And liquid neural networks are, you can think of them as a next step, like, uh, sort of, uh, state-space model square. It's non-transformer architecture that's more complicated than sta-state space and really difficult to code if you-- if I'm being honest. But it's, um, very efficient. It's, uh, subline-- sub, uh, quadratic in, in length of your context.Uh, it's very compact way to represent things, and that's a liquid AI company. They... Their goal is to productize it, and very often you have this need, uh, when you need to have long context and small model, and you want to have low latency. Like in general, it's basically on par with transformers, and if you do hybrids with transformers, it's, it's even better.That's why we at Shopify, when we tried multiple and we constantly try multiple models, multiple companies, we found that for small, particularly with low latency applications, when you have low latency and/or if you need longer context lengths, liquid was the best. And so we still use the whole zoo and always like obviously test and use everything, uh, every open source model and, you know, it feels l