Thriving on the Prairie

Jan Stankiewicz  0:06  Hello and welcome to Thriving on the Prairie,  a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jan Stankiewicz, Community Health and Nutrition Specialist with NDSU Extension. And I'm so excited to have a few guests on today. Farmers markets are an integral part of local food systems and economies across the state. With the short growing season here in North Dakota, people are always on the lookout for those canopies and truck beds set up in parks, or Greenspaces, or parking lots or on the side of the road. Today, I'm chatting with market managers of two farmers markets, Sue Balcom, with Bismarck Farmer's Market and Heidi Ziegenmeyer and Jessica Fish with Spirit Lake Mobile Farmer's Market. So let's just go ahead and jump right in. We'll start with Sue. So thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm so glad you're here today. Sue Balcom  1:04  I'm delighted to be asked to be with you, Jan.Jan Stankiewicz  1:09  This is great. So I can just I'm just so excited for our conversation. So let's start with a little bit of background for you. And you in regards to the Bismarck Farmer's Market. Where does all this start? I know you've been involved in local foods and farmer's markets for quite some time. But just tell us a little bit about how it started for you. Sue Balcom  1:31  Boy, you're not gonna like this, because my history goes back a long ways. You know, sometimes you forget how old you are, and how long you've been on the planet. But when I started in local foods, officially, I didn't even know it was called local foods. And it was about 2008 when I got a job at the Ag Department as the local foods marketing specialist. But the only qualification I think I have for any of the work that I've been doing since then, including the farmer's markets, is that I have lived a local economy. I grew up in a local economy. If it wouldn't have been for gardening, when we lived in Fredonia, we would have probably had a very limited diet. But my mom was an avid gardener. My memories start way back then. And so when I found out that people were didn't know where a potato came from, or didn't know how to garden, or can I was like, What do you mean, like this is craziness. And so getting started in the local foods movement in North Dakota was really exciting. And I remember Roger Johnson, who was the ag commissioner at the time, he said to me, you don't really think Sue is going to get these people to start canning do you. And look at what's happened since then it's really taken off. And so about, oh, I'd say maybe seven years ago, I did research for a book on the German Russian food culture, because I really wanted to know how people gardened, canned, preserved, butchered, stored meat without electricity. Like, how do you bake bread with cow pies? You know, like, how do you regulate an oven? Where do you keep meat in the wintertime? Like, these are questions I really wanted to know. And in the course of all of this research, now, everybody wants to know the answers to these questions. So one of the parts of that whole scenario with the books that I did was the everlasting yeast, which is actually a sourdough starter, and all the ladies had one in their root cellar. So I thought, Oh, this is so fascinating to me, I think I'm gonna start baking bread. And so I started my culture back then. And then I ran into somebody named Diane Schmidt, who had been doing farmer's markets and Mandan. I was one of her customers for 40 years. And she encouraged me to join the farmer's market. And I did. And of course, the rest is history because I've been a street vendor for many years as an artist and this fell right into my, the way I wanted to live my life and how I wanted to make money. And so when our markets kind of like grew and split, I became the market manager for Bismarck Farmer's Market and let me tell you, that's been a real learning experience.I can imagine I really like how you talk about like the different worlds you know, you live in a world or were raised in a world where local foods wasn't even a term because it was just your lived experience. And then being exposed to or having insight into other people's worlds where it's a completely different experience. So I just really like that you can, you know, local foods allows us to kind of step in and out of that or, or see different ways of of living and experiences that's really interesting.Jan Stankiewicz  5:00  So Bismarck Farmer's Market that is, of course, in Bismarck. Tell us a little bit about your role as a market manager because I think maybe, maybe some people don't know all of the work that it takes to get markets set up on Market Day. Sue Balcom  5:18  Heck, I'd probably wouldn't have taken this job had I known how much work it was. Alright. First of all, you really, we're really strict. I hate using that word, but we're really committed to being a farmer's market. So one of the things that we require is that the people are actually growing their own vegetables, we don't do any resale. So in order to ensure that we can maintain the integrity of the market, we set ourselves up as a nonprofit corporation each, and that requires paperwork, and lots of paperwork, lots of paperwork, and annual paperwork to it didn't just stop there.We file every year with the Secretary of State's office under our name, our official name, Bismarck Farmer's Market, and, of course, we are insured because nowadays, you can't do anything without insurance. So as a market, we have insured all of our vendors while they're on the property selling. Finding a place to have a market is sometimes a challenge. You know, we we have such a following now that the parking issue is, is almost overwhelming, like all of the people that are coming to visit the market. But you know, on a daily basis, I get phone calls, inquiring when the market is. I have to do the website updates. I do a Facebook page, we do Facebook posts all the time, not just on Saturdays, our market runs four days a week. So we're doing promos all the time. And then of course, people want to join the market. So who do they call? The market manager? And anytime anybody even has questions about where to park they call the market manager. Like, leave me alone. I'm trying to market my own stuff. Okay?Jan Stankiewicz  7:07  Yeah. Sue Balcom  7:09  Well, there's there's bookkeeping, you know, you have to keep track of people, you have to keep track of their membership dollars, you have to be responsible to them. So you have meetings and you report to them what you've done with their dollars and what benefit they're getting. But farmers are independent thinkers. So sometimes I think even the vendors aren't cognizant of what a market manager is doing for them behind the scenes. Jan Stankiewicz  7:32  Mm hmm. Right. And that is that something to also kind of make note of is that farmer's markets operate very differently. So Bismarck Farmer's Market, sounds like you guys are very set up and like you said, committed, that's a good word. Committed to operating and having integrity around your products and your vendors. But there is differences across markets too. Other markets are more open or more forgiving or loose on their, like rules or regulations or anything. So just for, you know, shoppers or customers, it's just interesting to see the differences in how markets are operating. Sue Balcom  8:13   I kind of have a theory about that. And that is that I think sometimes people don't take us seriously. You know, I think sometimes they think that this is people that garden and they got excess produce and they're just bringing it to market to get rid of the excess. And that's not the case with our market. We vet our vendors to make sure that they are semi, if not fully, serious about becoming a business, I know that our market has been going, the vendors in our market range from age 12 to 97. And they file their taxes under farm taxes. You know, it's it's a business for us. It's not just a sideline and so part of keeping that integrity is ensuring that we have people that are really serious about this because I would certainly like to see people be able to make a living doing this and not just have to work off the farm like I do for health insurance or whatever you know.Jan Stankiewicz  9:15  Right? It's not just a hobby kind of a thing. Just in somebody's backyard and off a whim somebody wants to go to the farmer's market on Saturday right? It's a well thought out well-oiled machine kind of a thing. Sue Balcom  9:29  I wouldn't go so far as it sounds well-oiled, but we can still get the grease.Well and again, you know from like those external perceptions like from the outside, it looks like you guys are a well-oiled machine. So you're clearly doing something right.So right and people don't understand truly how hard our vendors work. We have people that are there four days a week. Now in addition to planting that garden, you know, they're getting up at the crack of dawn and they're picking vegetables, they're washing and bagging, and then they go to the markets for four, six or eight hours. And then the next day, they're back to picking again, because we do markets Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays. It's really hard work. And we have aging vendors, I'm sorry to say I'm in that category also. But we need to, we really need to start that mentoring, we really need to start mentoring new vendors. And that is, my goal is to give generously. And you know, when somebody comes by and asks us how we do things, or where to buy bags, or where's the best deal on a canopy, we are more than willing to help them along. So that we have more vendors, and we've had, I've had a lot of fun this year with a couple of young ladies that have joined our market. And, you know, it's a little slow starting, but like I said, when you have kids and things, it's it's really a lot of work. It is yeah. And I like creating that culture of generosity and thinking of the next generation or succession, you know, those kinds of things, where I think sometimes, in the business world in, economics, it's kind of you think of a competitive nature, where, you can only have one type of vendor, or the more vendors, the smaller market you're going to have, but it really isn't like a truly competitive thing. It's like, it's a little bit more synergistic than I think that people might might realize. Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point, too. So thinking about the market this year. So Bismarck Farmer's Market this year, it's looked a little bit different than in years past for you guys. Specifically, becoming SNAP authorized, which is a huge deal. Oh, my God, had I known on that I might have not gone through with it.I know. Don't make me regret inviting you here. Sue I'm just kidding. Just totally kidding. Oh, my gosh. So let's talk about SNAP and Double Up Dakota. All right, in you know, really on that point there. It it seems overwhelming at first, and it was a little frustrating, because there it's a federal program. And so there were some hoops jumping that we had to do. But you know what, it's gotten so much easier. And I understand it now. And so I'm working with the individual vendors to help them try and understand a little better the importance of what we're doing here.Right, but how do you explain that to the vendors, it's counterintuitive to not write your market because they bring people and then those people bring people and then. Okay, so here's a prime example, when I did art shows, I did very high end hand woven garments like 400 to $800 jackets. And when I was the only person there I was the only person they could compare my product to. So then they couldn't make up their minds as easily as if there were five weavers there, they could go around, speak to each one of them and say, you know, this is the person I really liked their soul or I really like, you know, their artist statement or whatever. And it's easier than for the next time you're there. More people will come because they're like, oh, there's like five weavers there. I really love hand woven clothes, I think I'm gonna go see what I can find. So when you have one person doing this and one person doing that, there's just not as much comparison going on. And you know, if they come in, they don't like something that one week, they're not going to come back unless they have some choices. SYeah, and that's a really good so let's maybe I'm going to take it one step back. And so just let people know what SNAP is so SNAP is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It is a USDA program that individuals or families qualify for based on income and other factors. And it helps it's it provides food assistance, so dollars to help food budgets throughout the month. And, you know, just as you can go to a grocery store and use your SNAP or EBT card is what they call it. You can, a farmer's market can become an authorized retailer to accept SNAP. And like Sue mentioned there are hoops and there are forms and there are all kinds of things to get farmer's markets equipped to accept SNAP as a form of payment just as like accepting a credit or debit card. NDSU Extension had put together this project to help farmers markets become a authorized to accept SNAP. And the primary goal was, again to just increase the number of places where SNAP participants can can buy food. And the emphasis on farmer's markets was to increase access to local foods. So some grocery stores don't carry very many or no local foods at all. And so SNAP participants can now choose if they if they wish to shop at farmer's market that becomes SNAP authorized. So Sue worked with the Bismarck Farmer's Market and is now a SNAP authorized. Ta-da!  And I would have never even thought of it if it hadn't been for Extension's assistance. Just even being there to ask questions was huge, because I had I don't know, had a little trouble there at the start getting authorized. But now that everything falls in place, this falls totally in line with building your farmer's markets. Because if I remember correctly, this program began a long time ago, many years ago, as a way to support local farm businesses. Now a part of this was to purchase food from farmers. Because if if all the farmers disappear, everyone's going to have to dig up their backyard, because it's going to be kind of hard to find fruits and vegetables in particular. Jan Stankiewicz  16:22  Right. Sue Balcom  16:23  Just think of how much more you can how much more business this will generate in a farmer's market. Plus, we're educating people about how to use local food, where they're getting it's healthier, you know, they're getting a really fresh product if they're coming to the market. And we've had not a great run. But we've had more people than I thought coming out with their EBT cards. And I'm like, so excited. I'm like, thank you guys for coming. This is so awesome. And then they're really delighted because of the Double Up program that was like a fringe benefit for all of us. Yeah, yeah. So the Double Up program is, you know, an additional source of funding, so they call it a Nutrition Incentive Program. So for every SNAP dollar that is used to purchase any SNAP eligible food at the market, the those SNAP participants and folks who use their EBT card are then given $1 for dollar match on that SNAP purchase up to $10. And those Double Up Dakota, those incentives can be used to purchase additional fruits and vegetables. So again, tying back into the access to local foods, the access to healthy, affordable foods. Those incentives really go a long way. And I really do like Sue, when you were talking about going back to why farmers and farmer's markets should or are interested in these kinds of things. Because those SNAP dollars, there is a lot of funding that goes towards those programs. And if farmer's markets can tap into even a fraction of those dollars, it truly is like an economic stimulus, like it will dramatically impact  those dollars or it can dramatically impact those dollars coming into those farmer's markets and directly to the farmers.Right. And I think these people, I at least the customers that we've had kind of enjoy the alternative to going to a grocery store. You know, I've been just surprised like, Okay, this, on Saturday, we had a young lady there, and her mother and her son, and they came over and she bought, we use tokens at our market. So she came and used her EBT card for $20 tokens to buy product. And then I said but you're gonna get these $10 and double up and she goes, You mean I get to spend $30 at the market? And I said yes. And so her son, who was probably about four or five years old, was able to select a pumpkin from one of the vendors with those double up tokens. And he was so proud of that he carried it out of the market himself and everything. And so all of this ties into the social aspect of farmers market, which I think dinner, cooking, canning all this stuff is kind of like a community thing also. Yeah, it really is those there are it's personal connections. It's relational. It's more relational than it is transactional. You know, you think about buying food or paying for things or using coupons. That sounds very transactional. But it really is relational and like the social connectedness piece. Those things really do shine through. Right? And people say all the time, you know, like, I don't know why you work so hard or even why you're standing out here and it's only 30 degrees. Well, every time I get up on a Saturday morning at 5am, and cut flowers in the dark or something, you know, wash pumpkins in the dark. And I'm like, why am I doing this, I'm exhausted. I'm loading up my trailer. Driving to the market thinking I really would like to be home with a cup of coffee. And then that first customer shows up and I'm like, I love this. I love this interaction with people. I love that people love my stuff. Like when they come back and tell me why pickles tastes just like their grandmother's. It just like, yes! I've accomplished something really important in the world today. Jan Stankiewicz  20:50  I know, right? What is it about our grandma's pickles? I have the same feeling. I hope my grandma's watching from heaven and is proud of me. Sue Balcom  20:59  Oh, I know. I know. It really is those stories and connections, those things. It just It does. It makes it worth it even even in the dark and the mud. And in the work.I think it's gonna rain one of these days on us because as you know, we're moving into winter here. But you know, we hang out until the end of October at our market. And we do do four days a week. And when we're when you know, they come in eight and they're out of produce, they leave. And for you people who are late risers, you know, you got to get with the program. You got to get there early. You want to be able to have any kind of selection, that's for dang sure. Yeah, so where, let's say you four days a week, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday. Where is Bismarck Farmer's Market located Sue? Oh, we were so absolutely fortunate to have been invited to the new Ace Hardware north, which is on the other side of 43rd Avenue. And for someone who lives in rural Morton County, I was shocked to see what's been going on for development in North Bismarck, it is in credible. Jan Stankiewicz  22:12  It is nuts. Sue Balcom  22:12  We were trying to get our old customers to recognize that we moved a little bit further north and some of them whined a little bit about it. It has been the best thing ever. We have a whole new clientele because there's a whole bunch of young families up there. So we're seeing new people, we're on a visible corner so that people can see the canopies and the trailers when we're there. And it's ended up being just a totally awesome thing. Because moving any kind of market is a scary thing. It is yeah. But I in my deep down in my heart, I keep thinking how much fun it would be to go back home to my little town of 400 people and have a farmer's market there, you know, talk about a community kind of thing. Yeah, right. I know. It definitely is a culture. It's certainly is and it's so neat to see. And you know, like we talked about a little bit earlier, the differences in that. So it would be interesting to see, you know, a farmer's market culture in Bismarck, and even that Bismarck Farmer's Market isn't the only farmer's market in Bismarck and you guys are still thriving and the other markets are doing really well. And so it's just a it is a culture. And it's really neat to see how that's kind of ebbing or flowing or shifting. Here's a shift I'd like to see. Sorry to interrupt, but I don't know, one of the things that we're always talking about is wouldn't it be super great if the Bismarck City Commission got together with Burleigh county commissioners and created a permanent structure, you know, canopy type thing for all the farmer's markets. And we could do this year round, like whoever had product to sell could come and set up in a little stall it could be heated or not heated or semi heated. You know, you could do some solar energy type, cover, you know, like I live the dream about making this really legitimate because as I mentioned before, I think sometimes people are like, Yeah, this isn't really a business. But it is a business. And it is a lifestyle for us that I think more people would really like to be able to do and survive. Yeah, you do have big vision Sue, that's for that's for sure. But right like how to create something in your community that can sustain things, you know, so it's creating those supports are those systems that can bolster it that can make it you know, a little bit easier, especially in North Dakota was such wicked weather sometimes and the growing season challenges. So if there's ways to make it a little bit more convenient or a little bit easier, or goes longer into the seasons. That's yeah, those are exciting things. Right? And then I think the word would spread and more and more people, including the SNAP people who sometimes I think, probably don't think about shopping at farmer's markets. Well, I shouldn't say that about that. Because I think there's people all over the city that don't think about shopping at farmer's markets. It's very European to go and buy your loaf of bread and your fresh vegetables weekly, instead of annually, and then store the stuff, you know, with preservatives in your cupboard. I'm sorry, my bad not to install preservatives. But...Yeah, no, it is, again, it's a culture it's a it's a way of life. Definitely, definitely differences, that's for sure. But going back to that is kind of figuring out a way to, to kind of bend people towards those shifts. So maybe, maybe I'm a family who goes on a grocery shopping trip once a month, and I get all my stuff at one of the larger chain stores. But if there's ways to bend towards or to you know, like, because shifting behavior or patterns is hard, and it takes a lot of effort. And it takes a long time. So it's those kinds of things where, you know, the more exposure we have to folks shopping at a farmer's market, or even coming to the farmers market and seeing what's available, seeing, you know, talking with the people who grow the food, who make the food, who bake the things. I think that those are the really important pieces where each little exposure each little instance or circumstance can add up to, you know, longer term behaviors and patterns and those kinds of things. And you want that you want to cultivate, sorry to use that word again, the people who are actually doing this. So I think there were statistics out there when I was working either at farms or the Ag department about if people were just to spend five or $10 a week. Yeah, market five or $10 other grocery budget at a market every week, you would be able to support X number of small businesses and you know, in light of the pandemic, you know, people have all of a sudden panicked a little bit about the empty store shelves and things like that. So I hate to say this, but it took a pandemic to get people to even start thinking about local economies. And I'm not talking just about farmer's markets here but local economies have to do with processing too like meatpacking plants and wash and pack vegetable places which I think we have none are small processors like the Amy Gordon place in Grand Forks you know, there's there's a lot of peripheral businesses that came around the small diversified farms of the past that are no longer here, you know, farmers and like there was a creamery in the town that I grew up in, you know, I mean, there was a meatpacking plant and a creamery and all of these places that played into this local economy, which also equated into security. Like food security for the people that lived in the area, which is critical issue nowadays, because yeah, I hate to say this, but nothing breaks my heart more than hearing the statistics on the people, the young kids in North Dakota that go hungry every day. Right? I know it is there's so many layers in there. And it's it is heartbreaking because North Dakota being an agriculturally based stateWe got it going on man, we could take over the industry, if enough of us put our heads together, we have the knowledge and the land and water. Right. And that's the thing too, is it's not like to, to kind of bust bust the myth of farmer's markets being like this elitist kind of environment or climate for folks shopping for food. It's not and it's certainly more of lots of us doing a little bit, not very few of us doing all of it, you know, so it is those those $5 purchases, those $10 purchases, it's not that. Very few of us ever buy all of our grocery needs from a farmer's market. But if lots of us do, you know, again with those $5 transactions, those $10 transactions, those turn into those big scale changes that we, that we're waiting for. Right? And I'll just keep plugging along with my little voice here, which isn't that little. Yes, well, Sue this has just been a tremendous pleasure. I do appreciate your time. Is there anything else that I didn't cover that you want to be sure to let folks know about?I think we pretty much ran the gamut from back in the day to what my future outcast, or my future outlook is, or farmer's market. So just give us a try, you know, like, don't be timid to ask questions. That's, that's what we do. You know, we're in the business of educating people. And I really want to thank you again, because this SNAP thing I think can only grow for us. And I would have never done it without your help, Jan. So I really, really, really appreciate the support. And it's been a real pleasure talking with you today. Awesome. That's so great to hear. Sue, thank you so much. Thank you. All right. And now we have Heidi and Jessica joining us from Cankdeska Cikana Community College. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you guys are here today. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  31:13  Thanks. We're really excited too.Sue Balcom  31:15  Awesome, so why don't you guys just take a little bit and tell us like who you are and what you do at Cankdeska. And with the mobile farmer's market? Heidi Ziegenmeyer  31:25  Yeah. Okay. So, as you said, Jan, I'm Heidi Ziegenmeyer, and I am the land grant director at Cankdeska Cikana Community College. And Jessica is my assistant land grant director and general right hand woman, Lady about town. And, and we do things for the Spirit Like community. So we are part of Cankdeska as a 1994. land grant college. So just like NDSU is an 1862 Land Grant and they do things with outreach and Extension. And education. That's the sort of the three pillars right of Land Grant and agricultural education and things we do that as well but for the tribal community. So Spirit Lake is where we are located in Fort Totten centered in Fort Totten, North Dakota. And we do things like a community garden, we till gardens for people at their homes on the reservations, we give out seeds and seedlings, we do gardening, education workshops, or even just one on one like phone calls and messages. We have student interns who are apprentices who learn how to how to garden, how to operate a tractor how to run a greenhouse and take care of all the plants on campus and grow, grow tomatoes from seed, for example. What is and is not a weed, oh my gosh, that's an aphid in the greenhouse get it, kind of thing. So, so that we do all sorts of stuff like that. And, boy, we try to do all sorts of events throughout the year, little nutrition workshops, or even like crafting workshops, seasonal things, which can be good mental health breaks, you know, and just wanted to kind of get together and breathe a sigh of relief that you know, we take a break for a moment.Oh, like the corn maze and pumpkin patch or the or the community garden. Those were ideas of from community members that you know, things that they wanted to see like like outdoor activities for the fall or for the summer depending you know, for the community garden aspect. Because they're there were very rural, you know, North Dakota's rural. So having activities, that things that people can do, that are healthy and fun and educational, like our corn maze last year had Dakota cultural and informational history information on signs throughout the maze. So as you went through the maze, you could find the signs and learn things about Dakota culture. And it was in the shape of a buffalo or Tatanka, which is a culturally significant symbol. So all sorts of fun stuff we try to do to serve the community and the farmer's market to circle back to what we're talking about is one of those things that it ties in well with the community garden and the garden tilling program, it provides a venue for people to to sell their food or value added products and thingsto sort of supplement their incomes. Spirit Lake is a you know, low income area. And it's also a food desert. So access to local and fresh and healthy food is very limited. There's very few access points on the reservation or if people have to go over to Devil's Lake, transportation can be an issue and so on. So providing a market space for, you know, local people like very local on the reservation people who can, where they can sell their, their fresh food, or their jams and whatnot. Keeping that, that that income in the community. And then also giving that that fresh access, fresh food access to to other people who might want it without having to travel too far is the whole idea. And that's why we're mobile too. Because I attended a meeting. Oh, gosh, it was COVID. Right. And the pandemic makes time just like not not even time anymore. But so I don't remember when, but, but we had a meeting and the the tribal chairman at the time or chairperson talked about services that are provided to people on the reservation and how it's really important to to not just, you know, how's that service in a building somewhere and expect people on the reservation to come to you, because transportation is an issue. They might not know where you are. If you're not from here, like I'm I'm not from here. But I do love it here. And I appreciate it here. But I'm not from here. So people don't necessarily know me and automatically know where I'm located. So to bring the market out to them to bring it, the idea is to have it at the local rec centers. There's one in each district on the reservation wellness centers or rec centers, brings it closer to people. Some of them are quite walkable from some of the areas and they could just walk up and buy food. So that's the idea behind having it be mobile and rotating through the districts, it does provide some complications in that it's, you know, having a market in a different place each week can be confusing, but we try to market very well and have it clear on the signs. And so on. So this year, though, we had it housed at the college as a central location because of well, COVID. And you know, everybody's so busy. I think everybody just understands, everybody's so busy. And trying to coordinate getting it out at the RECs where I don't even I'm not sure if the RECs are even open right now. Normally, we were trying to collaborate with a health clinic, because they do a mobile foot clinic at the same time. So we were going to do the farmer's market the same day and location and times as the mobile foot clinics. Because they have like diabetes walk ins. And again, that fresh food aspect is very good to tie into that. But they weren't doing a mobile clinics because of COVID. So it started was like well, let's just do to the colleges here. But in future. That is the plan. Yeah, and I've gone on and on now, Jan, so please ask me another question. Yeah, no, that's all really great information. Heidi, it's just so important to know. Because oftentimes, in I want to say like in the farmer's market world in North Dakota, but I don't think it's, you know, necessarily pertains only to farmer's market worlds. But it's so it is hard to get that information, like we're in it. And we think that everybody knows about it, or knows how to get the information about it. So having all of that background information, all of that the details just readily available, is really nice. And I think, you know, lots of times we we feel like we're being repetitive or saying too much or something. But you run into people all the time. And it's like, I never knew that. And we were thinking, oh my gosh, how like how do we need to how can we get this better? How can we get this message out to more people or so don't apologize for all the information. It's very interesting, I know. We can only hope that we can be that hip or something.Hey, great. And just related to if that is something that people want to know about, especially on reservations, getting information out to people, word of mouth is, of course huge. But partnering with people is a big deal. Because there'll be long standing like special Diabetes Program, or food distribution or this there are these long standing kind of institutions that work with people on the reservation that you want to reach. And so partnering with them, including them if they want to have like a booth at your market. And then they'll market for you to write. And then like our reservation has a radio station run by the tribe and so you can record they let you for free you just record a little PSA and and they'll play it for you as many times you know, as they are able on the radio. And so that was another way that we got our information out in the past so just um, yeah, keep your eyes out for partners and different ways that people get their information. I think it's a little different sometimes on a reservation or in really rural areas. That it's not necessarily like, TikTok I mean, young people sure tick tock, you know, I'm sure. But like, I'm sorry, I'm not even on I'm not on TikTok. I'm not marketing Farmer's Market on TikTok. But maybe in the future. You know.Jessica Fish  39:34  young people sure TikTok, you know, I'm sure. But like, I'm sorry, I'm not even on I'm not on TikTok. I'm not marketing Farmer's Market on TikTok. But maybe in the future. You know, I'm not I know.Jan Stankiewicz  39:43  We can only hope that we can be that hip or someHeidi Ziegenmeyer  39:46  Yes, I wish I were that hip. I'm in my 30s I am not hip anymore. But like, I don't know I was playing these days ratchet that didn't even that's old, right? But that's an old word. I don't know. I don't know what the new word is for that anymore. But you know what's cool? I say cool. And that's probably not the word anymore. But again, off topic, but fun to talk about. Um, yeah, but so you got to think about your audience back to that thinking about your audience and, and how they get their information. And here we have learned word of mouth, getting some key people in the community who, who just know a lot of people, and are willing to be kinda like a champion for you is big. We had with farms last year FARRMS, that's one of our partners, was definitely bloom Hagen. And I'm them, and they're great. And they provided us with an intern for the farmer's market last year, and this year as well, are funded one that we hired locally. And our intern last year was a local person, and she was just fantastic. She knows everybody. And so she was like, sharing it on her Facebook and her posts on her flag on her personal Facebook got more likes than ours on the college page. And I was like, dang it. All right, well, you know, go you Thank you. I'm glad I know you. Um, so yeah, just find those champions look for radio stations, or whatever it is that people, you know, get their information from. Sue Balcom  41:18  And, yeah. And so speaking of getting your message out, and like tapping into maybe some new audiences, this year was a little bit new for you guys. Becoming SNAP authorized. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  41:31  Yes. Sue Balcom  41:32  So for folks who are maybe just figuring out what we're kind of chatting about farmer's markets, at Cankdeska, but then also SNAPs, so the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, SNAP, some people referred to it, or formerly known as food stamps. It's a USDA program that offers food assistance benefits to those folks who qualify -individuals and families with limited resources. And it helps like, again, stretch food budgets throughout each month, so they can purchase food. To be up for a SNAP participant, to be able to use their card, their dollars, those places where you can buy food have to become SNAP authorized. And that is a whole process. It's, you know, a federal application, all those big scary words. But Heidi and Jessica had ventured that trail with us this year. Yes. And it was a process. It's a process, but it's also it is, it's doable, we got there. But so getting that message out to folks, SNAP participants who couldn't have used their SNAP dollars at your market, like last year or any previous year, because you weren't SNAP authorized. So if you could share a little bit about, like, what that process looks like, and then moving towards, you know, getting the word out to SNAP participants and how those how those transactions or how those transactions kind of went for you during market season. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  43:15  While the process itself, I guess I just have a noise to represent it and it was (displeasure sound) That would be my feelings about the SNAP authorization process.Jan Stankiewicz  43:29  (laughs)Heidi Ziegenmeyer  43:31  No, it's fine. But it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's what we tell ourselves. It's fine. Everything's fine. Your your the dog sitting with the coffee cup with the flames around you. It's fine. It's fine. No anyways, but as she was super, super helpful with the training in January, you were fantastic. And then you had your your helper people I won't call them in minions, but like, you know, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm your helper, other NDSU staff who were would make site visits or check in on us like we had Gabe Nelson with Benson County or I guess that's an FNP program. Yes. Good. I'm getting it sort of. Right. Right. She would check in on us and help us as well and answer questions or, you know, point me to where I could find the information that you had already so thoughtfully provided and I just had forgotten. So I'm justIt was all a learning process. And that's the thing too, is learning learning along the way learning together. Yes. So my interaction with the federal government. So yes, the noise does not represent my interaction with NDSU it is representative of the my feelings regarding the federal government for this process. Um, because you know, what could be quick and easy is no, you fill in one extra box on the form which it says you have to fill in social security number. For example,. And then oh, that triggers, you have to also submit all this other information that it doesn't originally ask for on the form. But now you have to do that. And so then they kick your application back, and then back and forth, and back and forth. And then oh, and then they want to know what, what products you sell. And you can't just say fruits and vegetables, you have to say like carrots, potatoes, onions. So they'll ask you these follow up questions sometimes. And it seemed like different people, sometimes you would, because we were in this cohort group, right of different markets. And we were asked these questions, but not everybody was. So it was be prepared, I think, for the process, the emphasis on process the long time frame. But if they respond to you be aware that you only have I believe, 30 days, or they will kick you back. And you have to start all over. So they can take your time, but you cannot. is I think where what we learned from this as well. And I'm not. I used to work for government in an aspect and I can understand their side, too. But oh, you know, frustrating. Jan Stankiewicz  46:05  Yeah, I know. Sue Balcom  46:06  And it seems like you know, you know, in our minds, like, all we want to do is accept SNAP as payment for folks to be able to use their food dollars. And then yes, we run into the obstacles. The people work, the emails, the phone calls the wait the wait time? Yeah, it is. It is, it doesn't seem. There's lots of things in life today that are so easy. They make it so easy to do certain things. And then other things, it's just not that easy. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  46:39  Yes. I think to myself, Well, gee, if I were designing this form, I would have done this instead, not have that or put this direction. But then, you know, there's probably reasons why they didn't I mean, the form of would probably be ended up like 40 pages long, if you know, you could put every little direction on there that I would have.Sue Balcom  46:58  And, and maybe some of these conversations can lead into some more informed decision making because accepting SNAP at farmer's markets across the country, it has kind of like, been a steady uptick. But specifically here in North Dakota, it's been a little bit of a slower motion forward. And so, you know, maybe some of these rumblings, some of these conversations can then, you know, move things in the direction to which we want to see. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  47:28  Yeah, and I should sort of backtrack and say like, just because it was a process doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doesn't mean it's not a good thing. It doesn't mean you can't do it, or that, you know, you'll automatically get denied. I think most if not all of us in there, you know, your cohort kind of made it we all got authorized, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, it's doable. It's not impossible. It just was frustrating at times, because, you know, we all have busy lives and have other things going on. And so then to go back and list out, oh, not just vegetables, but potatoes, carrots, onions,  I mean, you know, I just, I got cranky, but Jan Stankiewicz  48:06  For sure. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:07  But everyone should still do it. Accepting SNAP is important. Because access to food is important. Healthy food, local food, food that puts, you know, dollars in pockets of your neighbor. And then you get their potatoes and they're delicious. Because they they're so fresh. And then the Double Up Box, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, if not right now. Jan Stankiewicz  48:34  Oh, let's do it right now.Yeah. Thanks for the Segway Heidi. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:39  Yeah. So do you want to talk on the Double Ups? Or you want me to? Jan Stankiewicz  48:44  Why don't you take it - you talk. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:45  Take it alright, I'm taking it. Um, so Double Ups... Double Up was like, if you bought something with your SNAP dollars, or SNAP card, then you would get up to $10. In Double Up. Like, we used hope we had tokens every day in tokens, right? Double Up tokens that you would give out that then you could turn around and it was like free money. Buy more veggies. And so we actually I think, Jessica you Jessica was my like I said my main lady. And she would help people figure out how to like even in one sitting right, maximize their SNAP dollars. Jessica Fish  49:23  Yeah, so what I because a lot of people around here didn't, hadn't heard of the SNAP Double Up and weren't really familiar. And there are there are some pretty specific rules for the Double Up Bucks. You can only use them on minimally prepared fresh fruits and vegetables. So where you can use your SNAP benefits on things like fresh salsa or bread, you cannot use the double up on that. So people would come up with their order and say I've got $50 worth well, okay, spending $40 Anyway, you're going to get what you needed to get your $10 token So from there, what we can do is actually say, okay, so you're going to get $40 on your card. And then with that, you get these $10 tokens, and that will cover this $10 of potatoes or pumpkins or whatever. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  50:15  So we were like, Yeah, spend those immediately. Yeah, let's do this. We're gonna, because it also with us, we, we only did a couple markets this fall because of various issues. And so we we wanted to, you know, not expect people to hang on to them necessarily until next year or something. So spending, you know, let's maximize that. Let's do it. Now. Let's get you as much fruits and vegetables and fresh things as possible. And I think that that was awesome for them. They really liked it. Right? Jessica Fish  50:45  Yeah, it was a fantastic, and it was a great way to explain how it worked, especially for those people that had never done it before. Like, oh, okay, I see this now. That makes sense. Okay, I get it. Sue Balcom  50:57  Right. And that's so cool that Jessica, that you were there to be able to, like provide that connection with people. Because lots of times that confusion, or you can have lots of apprehension around. I'm not sure how this works. I'm not sure what questions to ask. So having that person right there, I'm sure is what contributed to a lot of your success. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  51:18  Yes, Jessica, we had Jessica, she was like our SNAP lady, you know, transaction person. And we had a whole table that was she would do the credit cards or the SNAP. And then the individual vendors would handle their cash or whatever. But we had Jessica with her table with like, different flyers and information. And like one person, I was telling him about the Double Ups. And he was like, Oh, can I spend them anywhere? And I was like, no, not anywhere. Here is, like we had a flyer with like, all the markets on the back like, these are the different markets if you were to like go to busy market. Right? And you know, you could spend it there. But but not like just on the grocery store? No. So use them now would be our advice. And we worked to help them do that. And it was it was very popular. We sold a lot of how much did we end up selling in SNAP sales and things. Jessica Fish  52:12  SNAP sales, we actually had between the two markets, almost $130 of sales just for SNAPHeidi Ziegenmeyer  52:19  Awesome. Jessica Fish  52:21  We also we did have quite a few people who held on to their tokens, but we had about $30 worth of Double Up, come from that. And then cash and credit card, we probably had just for the booths that we were running another $300. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  52:38  Yeah. And then we just we had a few, you know, just a small market. But I think a small market kind of popping up in the community with like a week or so notice really, we got we got some good turnout. And I'm really excited about the the SNAP sales, we also went to the we advertise in the blue building, right? The tribal building, yes, and where a lot of people will come in for like tribal business. And then also over at the social services, where they actually do the SNAP applications.You put flyers and stuff there. So people would know. And I told the staff there to like send them to our market, like we're accepting SNAP now. So they could kind of talk it up to them as well and really access those people who, who can use their SNAP dollars. Sue Balcom  53:26  So yeah, I know, I think that's so important. And I think, you know, from a vendor or producer perspective, it's really nice, because you open it up to folks who like, maybe weren't even considering shopping at the market before because like, if I'm using my EBT card, I know, I've got a certain dollar amount. I'm typically, you know, knowing where I spend those dollars, moving from, you know, buying my stuff at a grocery store, or let's say in Devil's Lake, but then I'm going to try to do it at a farmer's market. And you know, having that open, welcoming, warm, you know, reception at a farmer's market, and then being able to feel like you belong or you're part of the community in that way. And then also knowing that those dollars, like you said, Heidi would benefit those farmers that you're that you're buying from and so like, you know, it's a little bit of an empowerment approach and having people feel connected and belonging, I think, you know, when we talk about SNAP dollars, and you know, those kinds of things, it makes it feel a little bit transactional. But farmer's markets are so cool, because it's very relational. And, you know, incorporating the social piece to it. So it's kind of works around some of those things. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  54:46  You talked about warm and welcoming. And I was just thinking about, you know, students are walking past the market into the college and like, hey, farmer's market! They're like, Oh, who's that crazy lady, but you know, they kind of came over, I think.Jan Stankiewicz  55:02  Anyway, the ones that didn't run in. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:04  Exactly, exactly. If I didn't scare them too much. Um, they, you know, my talk of tomatoes. Let's go. Anyway, um, it was it's good time so, you know, yeah, for sure. It's not you know you don't get that at Walmart. You don't get you don't get some crazy lady yelling tomatoes at you. Um, who doesn't want that?Sue Balcom  55:33  They're just like visions happening right now. Like, what what would that be like? Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:38  Yeah, exactly like don't I want that potatoes? I don't I don't yell at people. I hope everybody out there in the podcast world is laughing as well. Jan Stankiewicz  55:51  I know. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:52  They're like this lady's not butJessica Fish  55:55  That's the draw to the farmers market. Yes, the person. You too can come and see that person. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  56:01  Yes. I'll be famous. They'll want my autograph. crazy lady right here. Oh, right. Okay, yeah. Another another set real? Yes. But that's fine. That's I mean, we're having Yeah, yeah. Sue Balcom  56:13  So I wanted to chat a little bit about the, the mobile piece of your guys's market. So most farmer's markets or the side of the road in a parking lot, like with a canopy over top and your setup in a park or something? You guys are mobile, and you mentioned, you know, visiting specific districts across the reservation across the tribal nation.Like how does that work? And what so you mentioned the transportation to like the why of a mobile farmer's market. And that makes a lot of sense. But talk a little bit about how you guys function that way. And like, you know, just anything about that, because it's, it's pretty novel, actually. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  56:52  Thanks we are so fancy. Um, so the mobile part, like I said, it's really important to bring opportunities out to the people. Especially in areas where poverty is an issue, transportation can really be an issue. A lot of people, gosh, you know, share vehicles don't have their own vehicle, try to get rides from others, and so on. So being able to bring the food out to them and a place where maybe they can just walk up to it or somewhere they were going anyway, like if it's to the mobile foot clinic, or were to take their kids to go play at the playground at the Rec, or something is really good. And the whys and how's I mean, so that's the why the how is really due, thankfully to our I call them our small army of interns. But we have, you know, different grants that help support us and they support the interns which get agricultural education, and all the various hands on things they do, but also in farmer's market and learning how to you know, how to run a market. They learn also about SNAP dollars and Double Ups and how to price things in a market and like if they were  ever be vendors themselves, and our interns have some of them, have turned from just interns into well, interns and community gardeners. So they had that opportunity. And I think, I'm not sure we had some produce donated from some of our, from our community gardeners. So that might have been come, some of it might have come from our interns. But anyway, so they get that kind of building knowledge, you know, that builds on itself. And being part of that market as well. So we have, but we have canopies, and tables that we provide, again, that's grant funded, and we're very thankful for that. USDA NIFA. But I'm trying to give a shout out to them. But they, we have an Extension grant through them. And part of that funds, the farmer's markets. And so we have we provide the canopies and the tables and chairs, there's no charge to be a part of our market. Again, it's just that because we're in a low income area, we're trying to help people get into doing the kind of small business thing like a farmer's market. And so adding costs, like you know, you have to provide your own canopy and tables and chairs and also pay us a fee and blah, blah, I mean, it can be a barrier. Jessica Fish  59:27  For sure. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  59:28  So we wanted to get rid of those barriers. So we provide that we we call and recruit vendors beforehand. So we have an idea of how many. We haul the stuff out there. Our interns will set it up and we have a hotspot or whatever you call it right hotspot for the credit card, you know, SNAP machine thing for us to be mobile. And it's not the easiest thing to do for sure, but I think important, worthwhile. And We've enjoyed it so far. And I think bringing it out to different areas too. We get people who, who maybe don't necessarily drive by Fort Totten, but they do drive by the rack and St. Michael, or something. And so then they'll go, Oh, hey, what's that I'm gonna go stop. And we have a big banner, you know, like, farmer's market here. Now, what we've tried to put out, you don't a conspicuous area to help people, you know, see what's going on and stop by so.Sue Balcom  1:00:26  Yeah, that's very cool. I really do. The mobile aspect of it is very intriguing for me. So it's kind of, you know, being from Bismarck, and we just set up and we're stuck with just stop there. You start and stop there. But yeah, I think that's so interesting. And it's also, you know, I'm sure it would be interesting, you know, being able to, like, create relationship with, you know, more community members, because clearly, you're doing it to reach more folks. So yeah, that's very cool. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:00:56  I do have one, thank you. And I do have one, like, asterisk on the mobile aspects, should somebody else be considering that for themselves. And, you know, hopefully, no feds are listening to this. Or if they are, they will plug your ears right now. And this won't matter to them. Anyway, I did put it on my application. So you can't say it's not on there. But you have to have a specific physical location for your market, when you are applying for the SNAP thing. SNAP up step authorization, we specific ID. So when you're applying for SNAP authorization, you have to put a specific location. And then there's a note section where I said, but we are a mobile market, we also operate at these locations. So be aware of that if you're considering being mobile, that you are supposed to have one specific location that you're authorized for, but I didn't put that on my application. Nobody asked me any questions about it. I'm saying we're good.Jan Stankiewicz  1:01:53  I know. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:01:55  They're so bad. But that's one little little, you know, asterisk caveat. Something to just think about. If you feel comfortable just putting a note and saying you're good. Yeah.Sue Balcom  1:02:07  Right. Yeah. And but that's, you know, even for other farmer's markets, like sometimes they have different, like set locations. Maybe they're mobile. Yeah, but they have like to like they're in one place on Saturday in one place on Wednesday or something. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:20  Sure. Sue Balcom  1:02:20  So right, but having that, you know, disclosed and then allowing, you know, the people who make decisions to figure all that out. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:28  Yeah, exactly. I'm just letting them figure that out. But disclosing is important. So be sure to disclose all of your nuances. Sue Balcom  1:02:37  Yeah, yeah. So knowing the last couple of years, you know, we can talk at length about all of the challenges over the last couple of years. So let's, let's shift it a little bit to maybe next year or the year after. So what do you guys see, for the Spirit Lake Mobile Farmer's Market next year in the following years?Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:59  Well, the future is exciting, and daunting and scary and exciting again. I mostly exciting, we'll go with that. So ah, for the future, we want to expand our community garden even more. We are talking about the college leasing additional land for a larger space. And then of course, that takes grant money to help with the setup and everything because we don't have we're not generating millions on or now that it's taken millions but you know, we're not generating a lot of dollars on our own. but it's good stuff for the community. So it'll be a process but we hope to expand the community garden Oh, there's that word process again. So not just for the government, but for us to probably you know, yes, we all we all participate in that more tilling you know, garden tilling program participants,  more seed and seedling providing and so on. So that we expand our participants in those programs that then you know is the base for our vendors for our farmer's market to to build a bigger, more vendors. We had a few, not large by any means but it's a it's a process.Sue Balcom  1:04:17  And if you could all see Heidi right now she's building with her arms and her hands she's building it up so she's willing it Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:04:24  Yes, I would have said wildly gesticulating but you building building it is much better. Yes. I'm so so that building it up is good. We also have plans to renovate our physical location here at the college to turn a classroom into a commercial kitchen space. That is approved again USDA. So that that can be both a teaching space but also a place that people can borrow kind of rent but I don't even know if we'll even charge you know, really again low income and helping and supporting people To make those value added products that they can sell at the farmers market. Jan Stankiewicz  1:05:06  That is so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:05:08  I'm excited. Sue Balcom  1:05:09  I mean, that is honestly like one that is a big gap in a lot of communities is to have that space for folks to infer, you know, a commercial kitchen space allows individual producers to make products that can be sold outside of the home and into businesses and restaurants. And yes, so it really is like a like a business economical thing. So that's so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:05:35  Yeah, we're, like, I have goosebumps right now just thinking about it was talking about it. Oh, goosebumps. Yes. Um, so that's very exciting. And then, Jessica. Jessica Fish  1:05:43  So I also have a pet project with our farmer's market, because one of the things that the college does right now is in the spring, we provide seeds and seedlings, for a small fee, and seeds and seedlings are SNAP eligible products, yes, which means that we can be promoting that to the people in our community to say, look, you can spend $1 of your SNAP money to buy this tomato plant, and that tomato plant is going to produce you, I think it's like 15 pounds of tomatoes, on average. So for $1 and a little work, you're getting 15 pounds of tomatoes. And also because the Double Up program is continuing next year, when you buy $10 worth of vegetables. You're banking $10 to later buy vegetables when you need something you didn't grow. Sue Balcom  1:06:34  Yeah, I really liked how you're putting that together. Jessica, that's so exciting. And I really like, you know, having those conversations with folks because, like, it just makes so much sense. And the the, like you mentioned, Heidi, lots of barriers and a lot of this work. And so when we can work proactively, like you guys do such an amazing job to remove some of those barriers make it a little bit more convenient for folks who are starting out or just figuring out how to maybe like add some income or create a business or expand something. So that's Oh, that's so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:07:11  Oh, thanks. Yeah. And you know, it's buy this tomato for tomato plant. I mean for $1 with your SNAP dollars. Oh, and come to our gardening workshop. Oh, and then our food preservation workshops in the fall. And, you know, we it's a whole full service thing we got going. Jan Stankiewicz  1:07:26  Right, right. It really takes you through the whole spectrum. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:07:31  Yeah, yeah. It's a thing. We're, we're happy. We're proud of it. We work hard. Right? Jan Stankiewicz  1:07:37  You guys do,  it is a thing. Yeah. You guys work so hard. Oh, thank you. Yes. Yeah. So hard. Well, I know Heartsong.Sue Balcom  1:07:48  Well, we can wrap things up a little bit. I do sincerely appreciate your guys's time. I think that it's so great to hear stories to share. I really hope it's far reaching. Is there anything else you want to leave us with anything else that we didn't cover that you want to make sure that everybody hears?Jessica Fish  1:08:07  Oh, I do have one thing. Shout out to NDSU. Because one of the things that Gabe provided us with was these great, just little cards about how to preserve vegetables. And so we had those all set out on a table. And I had several people going through going, you can freeze grapes? You can can potatoes? Like they had no idea you could save these things for later. And that was such a good draw for them to then go okay, well, if I could freeze these, I can buy a pound. And I'll just freeze them for later. So that was huge, too. Jan Stankiewicz  1:08:43  Yeah. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:08:44  NDSU is awesome. Food nutrition program in the house. Well, yeah.Jan Stankiewicz  1:08:49  All right. Yes, we can definitely end on that note that. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Thank you. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:08:56  Thank you for inviting us. Sue Balcom  1:08:57  Yeah, yes. Excellent. Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode, visit www.ag ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairieYou can find more resources for families and communities on Extension's website at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension - Extending knowledge. Changing livves. 

Sue Milender, NDSU Extension agent in Barnes County, talks with North Dakota 4-H volunteer development specialist Rachelle Vettern about what volunteers and volunteerism look like in the 21st century.TranscriptSue Milender: Welcome to Thriving on the Prairie, a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers and shakers and community makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Sue Milender. I'm Barnes county extension agent. And today I'm honored to introduce you to Rachelle Vettern who is a professor and the leadership and volunteer development specialist for North Dakota State University. In her extension role, she conducts research and provides education for both youth and adults in the areas of leadership, ethics, generations, youth development and volunteer development. You know, she works in both the NDSU Extension Center for 4-H Youth Development as well as family and community wellness. In her faculty role she teaches online classes for Great Plains IDEA I-D-E-A youth development master's program. You are busy Rachelle. She has her B.A. in psychology and an M.S. in counseling and human resource resource development sorry, from South Dakota State University and her PhD is in counselor education and supervision from NDSU. And she lives in Hawley with their 17 year old son and 13 year old daughter, Emily, like I said, we're sure you are really busy.Rachelle Vettern: Well, thank you, I appreciate you reading all of that I didn't know how much I should share with you. So thanks. Um, yeah, it's fun to talk to you on this Finally, Sunny spring day with all sorts of exciting things happening, our 4-H club meetings are starting or groups are starting to meet face to face and spring sports is happening. So it's great to have a chance to chat.Sue: I know and you know, 4-H season is gearing up. And I as a 4-H coordinator in Barnes County, I'm calling all sorts of volunteers to the task of judging and looking at different projects. And so I've been doing some reading on volunteerism and I what I've noticed, Rachelle, is that it has really changed. So the book that I've been reading is called, The New Breed: Understanding and Equipping the 21st Century Volunteer, by Jonathan and Thomas McKee. And what what captured my attention was the 21st century volunteer not, you know, I'll be the very first to admit I'm old. And when I think of volunteering, I think of gosh, I've got to commit my firstborn when I volunteer, because I'm there for life. And I actually took a step back, and I was calling all these volunteers. And Rachelle, I was getting so frustrated, because I was like, Oh, these aren't the same kind of volunteers and, and attitudes that I had back in the day, or that my mom demonstrated for me back in the day. And so I thought, well, where are these passionate volunteers? And then of course, as we all do, I went into this defense mode. And I said, well, it's not my fault. Everyone is so busy and sports consume people. And, gosh, there isn't time to turn around, let volunteer. But then I started reading this book. And Rachelle, I realized, gosh, it is my fault that I am not reaching these volunteers because times have changed. And the way people want to volunteer has evolved in this 21st century. So I'm not alone in this. I know that there are lots of people who are trying to gather volunteers, churches and civic organizations and schools. And that's why I thought it's so important for us to understand what the 21st century volunteer looks like. And so that's why I'm interested in talking to you and finding out how you can, you know, steer us in the right direction so that we can gather all these wonderful people.Rachelle: I am excited to talk with you about this too, because it is such an important subject. And I don't want to say gone is that are the days of that 30 year volunteer, but it it volunteering does look different for just the reasons that you talked about. We are looking because of the different opportunities that we all have as far as getting engaged in our communities. Volunteers want to try on different things. And so we have to offer things in a different way. Much like what the book that you read talked about. So I would love to get into some of those details related to how that kind of looks. But I know I think you have some more questions for me.Sue: I do. So what I'm thinking is that I need to learn about maybe how to empower volunteers to serve in ways that meet their needs as well as my needs and I have to pay attention to the needs that they have and what they want to get out of volunteering.Rachelle: Well, so I think really thinking through the kind of volunteer that you're looking for, and what your needs are for your organization, whether for us, it's extension, but if as you look in communities, like you mentioned, faith communities and other places that use volunteers, what are really those volunteers that you are looking for? And then what kind of qualifications Do they have, because you have have to have really a good idea, a clear idea of what you're asking before for before you ask those volunteers, because in this day, and age, volunteers want to know what they're committing to, they want a role description or position description that tells them, okay, this is what they're asking of me. And this is the time commitment they're looking for. Again, maybe it's that I'm going to volunteer once a month for three hours a month, or maybe it's going to take some more prep time. But they do want those specifics. And then they a lot of times, they really want to be recruited for their expertise. So if you have someone that you know, is excellent, as we talked about, in managing social media, maybe you've just you follow them. And you've realized that they really great at getting messages out. And you know that an event that you're having, or having coming up, maybe it is something related to a church function or an extension function, you say to that individual, you know, I know you're busy, but your skills I have noticed in social media are amazing. Would you be willing to contribute to this community function that we have coming up, and helping manage the social media. So it'll be for the three months coming up to that event. And then it'll be done, you know, or maybe some posts afterwards. So it isn't like this, I'm asking you, and it's gonna be 10 years, you're gonna have to help me out with this. That makes sense?Sue: It does make sense. I really like the idea of having not only that designated timeframe, but also what the roles and responsibilities of that position are. Because sometimes, my guess is that, at least, when I volunteered, I didn't really know what my role was. And sometimes I felt like I was doing some sort of, well, role creep or mission creep, where I would, I didn't want to step on anyone else's toes. And then I also didn't always understand my terms, like, okay, I am, I'm on for this particular role, and it will be three months. And I think people are so busy now with all their kids' activities, and, and, you know, wanting to travel, if you're older than you really don't want to be kind of stuck forever, and then feel like you can't get out. So that would really help. And I love your language about noticing what they're good at, and then plugging them into something that they're feeling comfortable with?Rachelle: Well, that's really what I know, specifically, our baby boomer volunteers out there, because of the travel probably being retired wanting to spend time with their grandchildren, a great way to recruit them is to say, you know, I realized you're really good at photography, or maybe at financial management, would you be willing to come in and talk to our group about how we really keep the treasurers books in a good way for our nonprofit? Would you be willing to come in and share like, on one Saturday, do a photography workshop for us? So, it isn't that it's that long term commitment, but you can they get a taste of it. And then if they like it, they may come back for more. The other thing I wanted to mention too, is when you're you're recruiting, you really do want them to feel like they're going to make a difference. Because no matter what generation of volunteer, you're you're talking about, they want to know that their volunteering is going to make an impact and make a difference in your organization and or your community. And the importance with all of that is after they volunteer, you need to come back and share that impact with them. So, because of you, here's what we saved as far as maybe the value of volunteer time and the dollars that you saved as an organization. Or look at this because of your volunteering. We now have this amazing structure at this community park or we've been able to expand our library or you know, just to give them those that they've made that impact in their communities.Sue: You've given us a really good kind of overview of how to approach a volunteer. The book talks a little bit about dating. He says you could look at recruiting volunteers in terms of dating, can you tell me a little bit about what he meant by that?Rachelle: Well, that ties into really knowing kind of, first of all, what you're looking for, for your organization for you know that your volunteer needs, and then targeting those individuals you think that would meet those needs, but you don't just walk up and do that kind of cold ask. You need to do the dating, like you talked about. So maybe you invite them out to coffee, and have a conversation to find out about their interests, what they're passionate about, perhaps like what their schedule kind of looks like so that you know that they get to know you and trust you, that they kind of maybe and you get a chance to share what your organization does, and how you're looking for some people to make an impact in that. But you kind of want them to feel comfortable with you, before you make that ask and that you hear about them. So that eventually, you know, what would be the right ask in order to get them to volunteer and get them right in the in the right position in your organization as a volunteer.Sue: You know, I thought it was interesting, because if I ask and they say no, I really don't want to ask them again. But I think I should, shouldn't I? And how do I do that?Rachelle: So that's exactly the book talks about just then No, just probably at some times means not yet. So coming back, maybe letting them think about it, maybe it letting them take that position description for that, eventually, on one of your maybe your second meeting with them, you bring along kind of what you were thinking they'd be a good fit with. And just say, I'd like you to think about this if maybe you're too busy right now. But maybe in two or three months or a year from now you'd consider helping us out with this. Maybe the event we're hosting you have a conflict this year, but are you willing to come in next year and help us out? So that it isn't that no forever. Just maybe no, not right now.Sue: Yeah, I just don't want them to meet them walking down the street, you know, and then they're see me and they're like, oh, gosh, and turn around and walk the other way. I don't want that. I don't want to scare away finding volunteers. Um, I know that he talked about Seven Deadly Sins of recruiting volunteers, can you touch on a couple that really resonate with you? Rachelle: Well, one of the things we always say is that well, like you were discussing, those personal asks really are the way that you recruit volunteers, that dating piece, just sending out a broad post, maybe in the newspaper or on your social media, or just in general an email to like a whole group of people saying we need volunteers is really not going to get at the volunteers that you want. People have a tendency just to gloss over those things, and not really and say, oh, they'll find somebody else that fits the bill. But if you make that targeted ask when you said if they run in the other direction, you know how many times when someone's asked you to volunteer, aren't you honored? And if they give you the specifics, you know, if they say, Sue, I really want you to volunteer for our organization, because you bring, bring these wonderful, creative ideas and your excellent organizational skills, you have wonderful connections in the community, you would be the perfect fit for us. How many times have you said, Oh, my gosh, yuck, I'm, that's terrible that they said all those great things about me, I don't ever want to talk to him again. Would you ever say that?Sue: No, I actually, you're right, it would be very honored. If I were targeted, based on my skills and expertise and what I could bring to the program, you're right, I wouldn't run away, I'd probably run toward that person.Rachelle: Right. So. So again, one of the deadly sins is just that blanket recruitment. And then for you, too, you might end up with people walking through your door that don't fit your needs. And then the worst thing you can do, I always say if you don't use your volunteers, you lose your volunteers. So that would mean, you know, you're losing that person that's coming through the door. That's saw the ad but really don't have anything for them to do right now. You know, because maybe, in our program, we're not covering that subject that they're good at or something. So that's one of them. And then we talked about the recruit only one of the deadly sins is only volunteers who can make long term commitments. I know just personally for me, with the volunteer roles I'm in, I want to know kind of what the timeline of them is. And then I also want to know, a lot of times for me, it's a relief to know that there are a couple other volunteers that will be there to co-volunteer with me. So when I've done snacks at church for our youth programs, or whatever, I've had two other co-volunteers that are there to kind of help manage the load or in our 4-H club that I volunteer in, there's two other volunteers that are 4-H volunteers with me. So, it's kind of a balance. And if one time I can't make it to a meeting or an event, there's two other ones to back me up. So again, those shorter-term commitments with maybe some help. There's lots of other ones. Again, I can't think we talked about one of them says re-recruit, and just basically anyone and I think you've heard me talk about again, that targeted recruitment is is really important.Sue: So, you know, you're talking about targeted recruitment, and I'm thinking about generations. So, I'm thinking about my parents who might be in their 80s, who could bring some wonderful skills to the table. But also, I live in Barnes county with Valley City State University, and we've got some young whippersnappers. So how does generations play into volunteering?Rachelle: Well, you are right that that your opportunities there are endless. As far as giving those generation Z's at Valley City State those that was generations now that are in high school, or middle school, high school and on to college, even a chance to really gather some experience or gain some experience for volunteering for you. Gen Z has some different desires related to volunteer experience, while they want to be engaged in schools and communities and all of that, they really do want their experience to look a little different than perhaps like you said, your parents' generation, they look to communities that offer opportunities to really tackle some of the social problems we have, or societal problems, they want to make that large difference and make a change. But the cool thing about them is, like we talked about, I really, they want to not only just work at the soup kitchen, or collect food for the food pantry, they want to get to the root of the issue and tackle food insecurity, they want to figure out what they can do to address those needs behind it are there is there legislation that they need to work on, are there certain things they can do with technology and food production, to make it that they're addressing that, behind the scenes, the bigger picture, rather than just a band aid approach. They, they, they don't want that they want to do more than that my, my son says I want to build a business someday. So mom, people are paid well enough that they don't need that extra support, they need to actually they want they're going to be successful in their communities, without needing you know, being hungry. So it's those, they are looking at a different way of doing things.Sue: You know, I think that pretty much nails it. Because when we're looking at volunteerism, it's not just that you can put a certain volunteer into a certain role in I mean, you've got volunteers with tons of different passions and coming from a lot of different generations. And our role in finding volunteers, like you had said is finding their niche, and then asking them personally, to help you with the impact and solve either this problem, or to help you out with this. And I would think that would be almost a self-esteem booster on the volunteer side, community help for for everybody within that, you know, the area and then also as a volunteer recruiter, gosh, that's that would be a great way to build your slate of volunteers. So, I've got a ton more questions. And I've absolutely pummeled you with questions, you're just a wealth of information, so much fun to visit with. And I would love to continue our conversation and dive deeper into how to empower the volunteers once you have them. And then how to retain them. Because let's say you have them for that three months, short times span, how can you get them to come back for that three months for another three months? You know, or how do you get that second date, as we say?So thank you so much for coming out and visiting us visiting with us about volunteerism, because like I said, it's, it's a problem trying to, you know, we need volunteers for so many things. And if we, as the volunteer coordinators can really help them help volunteer future volunteers to fill their needs, as well as filling ours. It's a win win. So, thank you so much, Rachelle.Rachelle: Well, yes. And I just want to say thank you, I love him, as you can tell talking about this. And just as we leave want to say that whatever you do, at the end of the day, as someone who works with and manages volunteers, don't forget to say thank you and really recognize them for the work, the amazing work that they're doing, and share that impact about the things because that will keep them coming back. That they know that they've made a difference that they've made a contribution to your organization or community is so important, much more important than any plaque or pen or metal that you could give them saying thank you and telling them how they've made a difference is the most important. So, thanks for inviting me to talk with you today.Sue: Well, I think it's appropriate to say thank you as well for volunteering to come on our podcast this afternoon. Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie to subscribe to this podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension extending knowledge changing lives.

Jan Stankiewicz: Welcome to thriving on the prairie, a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities and inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jan Stankiewicz, Community health and nutrition specialist and tribal liaison with NDSU Extension. And today I'm with Katie Johnke, who is who works for Bismarck Burleigh Public Health, and we will be diving into blue zones work, all that's going on in the state and around Bismarck. So Katie, welcome.Katie: Thank you for having me today.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah, so why don't you tell us a little bit about your role with Bismarck Burleigh Public Health?Katie: So I am the nutrition services coordinator at Bismarck Burleigh Public Health. And what that entails is just focusing on community livability, health and wellness for the entire city of Bismarck and our residents and just looking to make our community  a healthier place to live.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and that's a really nice partnership, so too, full disclosure, Katie and I work together on many projects, so Extension and public health has a really strong partnership in the Bismarck community so, this is a really, what we're going to be talking about today, is just a really great tie-in for the that kind of a partnership. Which brings us to the topic of blue zones, which people might be wondering what blue zones are, maybe they've heard of it. But I think in North Dakota it might be a little bit of a new topic, Katie what what what is a blue zone or what are we talking about when we, when we reference blue zones.Katie: So blue zones are areas of the world that share and benefit from a set of habits that they call the power nine and we can get into those in a little bit. But that help that those practices together help increase longevity, health, and happiness. And individuals that live in these pockets across the world are living well into their 90s, 100s, with little or no chronic disease, which is huge because in the United States, what we see is, for sure as we age, chronic disease increases, but we're also seeing that in younger ages too and based off some of maybe our behaviors or habits that we take on individually and maybe even as a nation. And so these pockets of blue zones really have kind of the the if you would the perfect way of living and are great role models for other communities to pick up on some of their their habits and practices.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and it really is astonishing, so I think it's, is it five areas across the globe that have these like little pockets of people who live very long in life, have really good quality of life too, so that's something, that it's not just about living to be 100 or more years old. It's that they can live well for that long.  And so it is kind of, you know, lots of people when we talk about health and wellness or food and nutrition people always want to know what the magic pill is or what's one thing that they can do, but blue zones is kind of like,  it's just, it's more about a culture it's more about just the way things are done and it is kind of astonishing to see the impacts of those kinds of things that's evident in in you know, like the longevity and low rates of chronic disease like you mentioned.Katie: Yeah I think you said it perfectly, it is more about the culture and the whole, the whole way of living, not just the physical aspect, and not just trying to reach a magic number, to say you you live to 100, but you did so in great in a great way and in a good quality of life.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah, so in your introduction you mentioned the power nine, so let's tell folks what that is and what that kind of means in you know, health and wellness and blue zones conversations.Katie: So the power nine are broken down into different areas of healthy living. So there's the the move section, the right outlook session section, eat wisely and connect. And so I'll go through each of those and kind of break them down a little bit more, to start with the move and the move, naturally. And what that really comes down to is that the environments, the blue zone environments and what blue zones tried to tries to do is create environments that constantly nudge people into moving without thinking about it. So it's just a natural fit to encourage movement and walking, versus forceful forceful things that are maybe right in your face, it's just things that are done without having you really realize it. Residents in the blue zones, they move all day because that's how their environments are set up and so it's just a natural way to do so. And their sedentary lifestyle, or a sedentary lifestyle of sitting throughout the day. won't necessarily be fixed by going to the gym but you need that constant movement throughout the day and so these people in the blue zones, it's not like they're going to the gym every day and i'm not saying that we don't want you to go to the gym if that's what you like to do, but that's not what they're doing. They're just moving naturally throughout the day at a consistent, consistent times and they're finding that that movement is enough to improve their physical health.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and so when we, you know when we hear, in the United States, adults should move you know 60 minutes most days of the week, you know those kinds of things and a lot of the times. We do think “go to the gym” or do some sort of “sport” or engage in those kinds of things, whereas what they found in these blue zones is that they don't have to even like follow those, that 60 minute guideline, because the impact of them moving all the time, throughout their day, in a natural way like it makes up for those kinds of things. Is that right, like is that?Katie: Absolutely yeah they don't have the necessarily it's not a number, they're not fixated, on all these rules and examples will go through aren't necessarily fixed on an exact number. While those are guidelines and recommendations that are helpful for people, it is just more of that natural way of living and just engaging in, in those movements, and so I think if that's something we think about in our communities here, how can you continue to move naturally throughout your day that just encourages more steps, or just more movement up and down versus the constant sitting that many of us are familiar with. Not, not just here in the Bismarck Community or North Dakota but across the United States.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and I think too, it comes down to you know, like walking to go get some groceries or walking to the library or to school and those kinds of things, I think that those are all ways that, you know, where it gets bigger and beyond our own individual choices, so yeah.Katie: So the next one that we have is the right outlook section and this talks about having a purpose and downshifting. And so, thinking of having a purpose is, why do you wake up in the morning? What is your what, what is your sense? And this has shown to have significant impact on life expectancy and blue zones has shared that it can, having a sense of purpose can add up to seven years of life expectancy. Which I think is really significant, just by waking up and knowing your your worth for that day. And I think that's really something that's internal for people, but something maybe to consider if you're looking to add more wellness components to your your own life and really finding value and understanding to your day to day.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and going back to you know have it not having like a specific number to meet. So if, and if you kind of reverse it and say you know if we don't have a purpose, it can take seven years off of your life, that's kind of, that's impactful and profound and so I think it's really interesting when you can make, again, like those small shifts or small changes. And then, the result is a longer, higher quality of life, that's amazing.Katie: Yes, and I think too, for people to understand that you don't need to have this huge idea of purpose or this huge, it can just be something very simple and personal to you, and you know, maybe you wake up in the morning because, for your family. Or you wake up, because you, you find value in the work that you do for the community, I mean it can be anything it doesn't have to be this big profound impact to the, to your own community, but just something simple.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah that's a really good point katie.Katie: And then the next one, in that section is downshifting. And this is relating to stress, we know that stress leads to chronic inflammation and long term chronic inflammation is associated with age related disease and poor health outcomes. So stress really does have a long term effect on our health. And if we can kind of downshift and, you know, have some routines that help alleviate some of those stressful moments that's only going to benefit your health.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah and I really do think that having that downshift where we can live in a community or a culture that doesn't put a high value and premium on busy-ness and productivity and all of those things. So it's you know it's, it's almost kind of, it's in all the memes, it's something that you know people can brag about like somebody is a “hot mess” or they're running and their schedule is insane and it's almost kind of like a, or it can be used as like a badge of honor or something, and how that can really have an effect on on your health.Katie: Yeah I think you, you said it exactly right, that it's not necessarily a good thing to be stressed and busy. And one thing that I think this past year, while it was stressful in many ways for most of us, in the beginning, I think this past year taught us a lot of about just enjoying the simple things and family, because when we weren't able to engage, especially at the very beginning of the pandemic when things were shut down, I really think that was an opportunity for people to downshift and it was a perfect example of what it's like to just live and enjoy in the moments and not have all these things pulling you in different directions. And I know personally, it was, it was nice to kind of like reset. It was a good reset button. Trying to carry some of those practices in now his life is moving forward.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah I know I think you know in some in some cases, I think there might have been a collective sigh of relief in some of those slow downs.Katie: Yes, and so I think there's good things that have come out with that and downshifting really, just learning to find ways to simplify it a little bit. And that's not meaning, you have to say no to everything and you can't participate in things, but do things that are important to you, and that you really enjoy and find value in - can really make a big difference and can help with decreasing your stress in your life.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah absolutely.Katie: So then we're getting into the third section of eating wisely. And in this one there's a few different ways to look at that, so they go by the 80% rule and this messaging is that you stop eating when you feel 80% full. And while that may not necessarily be new information to some of us, being able to recognize your satiety and your fullness is important. And that's something we do, you know, message in different education tools that we go through. You know don't eat to where you're feeling stuffed, but the other key piece of this is that the people in the blue zones, they actually eat their smallest meal in the late afternoon or early evening, and then they don't eat after that point. So their larger meal is probably in the beginning of the day, like breakfast or a brunch style, and then their lightest meal is towards the end of the day. Which is, oftentimes, opposite of what maybe the culture is in North Dakota maybe even in just the US in general. But that's something to think about, too, is there a change, where you could maybe consider looking at that are trying it out and see see if it helps you feel differently.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah again those small shifts, yeah trying something else, seeing what might work. And then I think to some of the like the 80% rule plays into the mindfulness and the and eating without distractions and having it be an experience. You know if you think about, you know if we are having a family meal, at the end of the day, or beginning of the day, if we're switching things up, being mindful and again that downshift and slowing down a little bit to have that meal to pay attention to the cues that our body is telling us, you know those kinds of things. I think that is interesting and could also be one of those small changes, where it's just slow down a little bit.Katie: Yeah and maybe even decrease stress levels, as I know, meal time for some, can be stressful. I know, sometimes it is at our host too and so finding those ways to incorporate these healthy changes that may be very simple if you kind of just implemented some of the key practices. The next one is plant slant is what they call it, but what this is is just focusing more on beans and lentils as a staple in their diet. And they do enjoy meat but just not as often as maybe the typical American culture diet, you would find. So just really focusing on implementing some more of those beans and lentils. Finding familiarity with them to cook and add them into more dishes. And I know NDSU Extension has great resources for cooking with beans and lentils, too.Jan Stankiewicz: Yeah I know and it's really again, not something that, so when we're in the eating wisely category within blue zones, you know you, you might expect to have like specific or set guidelines on what to eat and how much to eat and those kinds of things.  But again it's just a way of doing things it's like what they found so there's not, a you know, you must eat X number of beans and lentils at every meal or anything like that it's just again, what they do, and then the benefits that are seen. So again with the going back again it's just astonishing, those chronic disease rates are just so low in these areas, so they must be doing something right.Katie: Yes, and one other component and they're eating wisely and maybe it's Jan's favorite, I don't know, their wine at five.  And they enjoy one to two glasses of wine a day, so moderation, but regularly throughout the week, and they really encourage you to do so with a meal or in a social setting and they have found the expectancy difference between those that participate in a wine at five, if you will, compared to those that don't, pretty significant difference in the one that lives longer is the one that enjoys that wine at five. And so I think the key again with that is the moderation and doing so in a in a positive way and doing it with family and friends around mealtime.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah I did I did say that I think they know what they're doing so it might be something to consider. But, in all seriousness, there are there are health benefits to alcoholic beverages, as well as wine, so it is something you know, to think about whether or not it's something that somebody adopts or is ready for and those kinds of things, lots of things to consider, but there are health benefits to some of those beverages.Katie: And then the last section is which, I think, maybe doesn't get talked about a lot and it we are starting to learn more about it, but is their connect section. And this focuses on having a sense of belonging and social presence with others. And so thinking about your right tribe, and who is your social social circle that help support healthy behaviors. So who is your group of people that you, you hang out with or you are surrounds you a lot of the time, and what are their behaviors?  Are they do, they support your goals, or do they hinder some of the things that you want to accomplish in terms of a healthy lifestyle.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think my brain goes back to when I was a kid and maybe a teenager when my mother would tell me, you know, “show me your friends and i'll show you your future”. I think the impacts of that and the implications of who you surround yourself with is kind of alludes to that a little bit. You know it could be a positive thing and then it can also be a not so good thing when my mom was trying to you know, help me make good decisions in my life. So I think it goes back to those kinds of things, but then, as well as healthy behaviors, yeah that's for sure.Katie: that's great and then another kind of statement that i'm familiar with kind of with that, is “you are the the average of the five people you surround yourself with”. And so, if you think of the five people you are around the most you are the average of those individuals, and so you have a good group of five in your corner. And so it's just an opportunity to maybe think “are these the people, for me”, and you can you know I think reflect on this at any age in life. It doesn't matter young or old. The next area that the the blue zones people kind of own is their loved ones come first. And so that they really put their family members before themselves and not in a way, where they don't take care of themselves, but they just really value their loved ones and want to love and support them.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm and I think too they talked about some of the intergenerational components where you know because they live so long they've got lots of relatives i'm sure, and so, then the way that we take care of them and surround ourselves with our family. I think that it's really interesting how they how they do those things, and what that looks like with you know family gatherings and you know how things operate within a community and those kinds of things, so yeah.Katie: yeah that intergenerational connection piece is huge and it's becoming more profound, I think, in our own community and across across the United States, too and just something to talk about more and be be more aware of. How you can involve those older adults in with the younger younger kiddos' lives.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and it's even when, you know, the whole, the respect for our elders and those kinds of things when there's lots of you know, knowledge and you know the the you know they're so wise and all of that, it's so true. And so, then when those younger generations are able to be around that and things get carried on you know, I think that just really makes for a really good future and a good legacy in some way.Katie: yeah and the last one that we're going to quick just touch on is having a sense of belonging and so this comes to finding a faith based community to be a part of. And that can be any denomination any way you want to participate in that, but just having a deeper connection with a faith. And so, whatever that means to you, they have just found these components are what these blue zone pockets around the world are doing to live long and healthy lives.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm and I think the the faith based community it, you know lots of times our brain goes immediately to a church or religion, but that's not necessarily the case - in some cases it is like there's one community that is a seventh day adventist community and so that's, you know, directly tied to a religion. But in other cases it's more of a spiritual kind of a thing or you know there's some some element of divine, divinity you know so it's it's not just a one size fits all kind of a thing.Katie: Absolutely and different ways to practice that, it doesn't necessarily have to mean physically in a place either. And I think you said it perfectly, it's just having that that greater sense of connecting with something beyond beyond you. So, yeah the power nine is really a great summary I think of different practices we can consider implementing to improve our our healthy outcomes.Jan Stankiewicz: mm hmm yeah absolutely and it really does make make you kind of step back a little bit and look at things differently and again, you know, like you mentioned, katie, it's not that the recommendations and guidelines that we have in the United States are off, or shouldn't be followed in any way it's just that the way that things are done elsewhere just helps them get to those recommendations and guidelines, without even thinking much about it. And so so it's just kind of interesting, you know how we operate, and especially in our world, katie, where we talk about health and wellness and guidelines and meeting these kinds of things on a daily basis. So then, knowing what we all know about the blue zones and what kind of is entailed in the different categories and the power nine, What does that look like in North Dakota? And what does that look like in Bismarck? Knowing that our communities and cultures aren't set up like they are in Italy or Greece or Japan. So how do we, what can we do like what or where do we start and what can we do?Katie: So there are a lot of opportunities that I think we can take from these communities to bring to our state or our own communities. Really, the big goal is putting in those nudges in your communities to help people make healthier choices, to help them live longer and live better. And so it can be little things like farmers markets that are available in your community that you can walk to that are that are accessible by all modes of transportation. Or it can be having social connections in your community that you have a lot of great groups and work to make people find find a place, and have a connection with others. And I think, too, it's connecting practices that are going on in your community to just bring things to the next level. And I love that they use that word nudge within blue zones that's kind of one of their key words and, if you think about how can we nudge people in our own communities to just maybe make a healthier choice. And it can be something so simple, is it creating safer crosswalks for kids to walk to school? Is that something that's that simple? Or is it you know, having kids have the right hats and gloves be able to walk to school in the winter? And so there's all these different avenues to go down to improve the changes within your own community and within our own states.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I really like that example of, you know, kids having the right gear, you know if, when it's raining outside in in Bismarck or North Dakota our kids don't go out for recess, when like what would it look like if they all just put on ponchos and had you know some sort of rain boots or something you know? And then they could go out and still get fresh air and move their bodies, even when it is raining. Because I don't know, playing in the rain is kind of a fun thing, even for kids. So, just those kinds of things yeah, where it's not the way that we do things now, but, you know, what would it look like if we could?Katie: And I think that's where blue zones is great, it's not saying you have to, you must, this is the only right way. It's saying let's let's change the lens and focus on different areas  ofopportunity and like you said, what could it look like so let's just give it some thought. And maybe it's not the right fit now and that's okay, but maybe it's the right fit later, and so with these constant movements towards these better ways of doing things, because we know they're better if people are doing them and living longer and healthier, it's not going to just change overnight, or even in a year's time I mean, these are long term  changes and behavior changes that it will take for a community, for a state, for a nation to adopt some of these practices. And so being patient with that, but also being willing to go down different avenues and try new things.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah that's a really good point. So switching gears just a little bit, so the city of Bismarck and the state, you know across the state too, there has been some work with blue zones already, right? And so, can you tell us a little bit about what's been going on, what might be going on and kind of how we got to the conversation today.Katie: yeah so the North Dakota Department of Health had an opportunity to work with the blue zones project and bring them to communities in North Dakota and have community assessments done to take a deeper dive into what is already happening in communities. And fortunately, Bismarck was one of those communities that was able to participate, and I was one of the leads on the project and helped the blue zones team, and got to work alongside a great group of individuals to take a deeper dive into what we have going on in Bismarck, what things were doing really well, and what our areas of improvement. And that looks so differently in each community too. So the things that are going well here might not be going well in another community and vice versa. And so we had the opportunity to have that assessment done, and then we were provided with kind of an outcomes report or have a plan of action and currently there's just some discuss discussion going on on how do we take that to the next step and so looking at some funding that is needed to possibly take blue zones and implement it to its fullest and take it to that next step, and that is happening at the state level. And so we're kind of just waiting to hear, kind of the outcomes of those conversations, but nonetheless being able to have that deeper dive into our community, we're able to, or I'm able to, in the work that I do now and partner with Extension and other partners across our community we're able to work on some of those things on our own, and kind of have them brought to light a little bit more and find opportunities to continue to improve in those areas.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think that was one of the really neat things so that we that we saw from these assessments in the work that the Blue zones group had done, is we do kind of get to step back and see, and kind of take a look at all of the good things that kind of are going on in the community and even across the state. And so when, you know when you're in the work or even when you're not in the work and you don't really know some of the things that are going on, it's just kind of nice to have that laid out in front of you and, you know, it's a good reminder that there are good things going on. You know, so we aren't like Bismarck, North Dakota is not a blue zone, but there are good things going on. And things that really do or can make an impact on on people's health and well being, so that was kind of encouraging for me.Katie: yeah and I think too, in, when you work in the area of health and wellness, and community livability, public health, if you will, sometimes it's hard to, I think, recognize the good things because it's just all integrated in the community. aAd it's hard to really, pull out like, oh, what have we done? And so this was a nice way to be like, wow, look at what we have accomplished! Look at the partners that we've made. And so it is kind of our own internal assessment too of even just individually, the people that were at the table like, wow we have made progress. And so I think it's great and if you're able to do that at any level you don't necessarily need a blue zones project come in to take that assessment of your community or even of your, you know your organization, it can be done. You know, what are some of the things that can be done within your own organization that may be aligned with some of these blue zones things.That it doesn't have to be this whole big picture if you're not quite there yet.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah absolutely, that's a really good point. Yeah. So then when you talk about the different assessments and seeing the impacts and the changes that have happened, I think, also working in the health and wellness field, public health field, it's easy a little bit easy for us to get discouraged, because we don't see the drastic drop in obesity rates, we don't see the drastic change in chronic disease rates and those kinds of things. So I think it's you know, knowing that it is such a long term thing, that relaying those successes or those kinds of positive changes in a community it can be helpful and having these conversations because other people can kind of get the messaging that there's changes happening, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're free of disease and the epitome of health and wellness but that there are positive changes happening. So I think that these kinds of things can help with with that kind of narrative.Katie: yeah and you know you think about some of the changes that are done, they may not be done, and you may not be impacted but what about the next generation? That's really what we want to think about is those coming after us. And so granted, you may able, you may be able to take advantage of some of the changes, but it's really for those to come and it is that it's that culture shift, and it's hard to do, especially when we are kind of in a super fast changing world with everything happening, you know just at the blink of an eye. But the things that really matter do take time, and so we need to remember that when we're talking about long term health and wellness and lifestyle changes, that it is going to be a slow moving moving pace, but that changes will be made along the way. And people, people will be able to start recognizing that and really see the difference as time goes on.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah and then kind of tying that, as we kind of wrap up here, but tying that back to the city of Bismarck and their you know support of this kind of work, and what that means. Like how do they make the connection? Why does the city of Bismarck have care and concern for blue zones work? And what does that mean for the their residents? What does that mean for their employees? I think if you've got anything to share on that with their strategic plan or anything like that.Katie: yeah so the city of Bismarck did go through a strategic plan in 2019 and that was a, again a deeper dive and assessment into their own their own community and what are we doing? And what are the needs of our community? And what we found that came up time and time again, was that the residents of Bismarck have a strong passion for their community and a sense of community pride that is very unique, I think, to Bismarck.  And with that, you know, our leaders and our staff that work in the city, we want our residents to want to live here. And want to stay here. We want them to grow up here and stay here. We don't want them to leave, and so, in doing that, we need to find, you know, what are these individuals wanting. And how can we make a community, that is, that is a great place to live. And really that's where that community livability, and I love that word because it's like you think about as a whole what is our committee like, in terms of livability for all ages. And so that was done through our city strategic plan and that's why the blue zones project aligns perfectly, it fits in with all of those pillars that were identified as areas of work or areas of focus.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah and I think to you know in our world, again we talk about health and wellness community health, community livability, but the impacts of this trickle into so many other areas. It trickles into the local economy, the you know workforce with job retention and attraction, you know getting college students to move here or to go to college here. It really does flow into so many other areas, it really isn't just about health and wellness. So, I can totally see where the city of Bismarck you know, having that long term, their, you know, eyes way down the road, and what that looks like you know in you know what does it look like in five or 10 or 15 years.Katie: yeah exactly it's not just the “let's improve your blood pressure” type thing, it's let's really improve your life and your whole your whole body wellness and so you know any everything from community and family and financial and all these pieces of wellness that we think about, the blue zones projects aligns and fits in all of those pillars of this city Bismarck strategic plan to make our community, a more vibrant, healthy, safe family oriented place to live.Jan Stankiewicz: yeah yeah agreed, and it really does align with all of the work that NDSU Extension does, and so it just is you know, I just I eat this stuff up and so it's just so exciting. So, katie I just want to thank you, as we wrap up this conversation was, it was fun for me i'm glad that you can join me today and walk us through all the blue zones work that you've been heavily involved with. So, katie just so everybody knows too, katie was kind of one of the main people integrally involved with the blue zones project and, in, likely will be as we move forward so i'm excited for what's to come and stay tuned for more. So thanks for listening to thriving on the prairie to subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resources or links from this episode, visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension, extending knowledge changing lives.

TranscriptJodi Bruns- Good morning and welcome to Thriving On The Prairie, a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jodi Bruns, leadership and civic engagement specialist with NDSU extension, and I'm joined here today with my colleague Kari Helgoe. Kari, would you introduce yourself this morning?Kari Helgoe- Jodi, thanks for inviting me um my name is Kari Helgoe. I am the Pembina County um Extension family community and wellness Extension agent up in Cavalier. Jodi Bruns- Thanks for joining us, Kari. And we're also joined by Brenda Stallman from Hillsboro, Brenda, would you say hello this morning?Brenda Stallman- Yep. Good morning, Jodi, and listeners. I'm Brenda Stallman, Director of Traill District Health Unit in Hillsboro. I've been in my position for 30 years now, and I'm happy to be here. Jodi Bruns- Thank you-  Rachel?Rachel Morrison- Good morning. Thanks for having me. I'm Rachel Morrison. And I'm the executive director of the Cavalier Area Chamberof Commerce. Jodi Bruns- Thanks, everyone, for joining us and talking a little bit about our Community Impressions program and your involvement with that. So we're here today, like I said, to talk about Community Impressions, and what exactly this program is. It is  an NDSU extension community program. Ah Essentially, I like to tell people, it is a secret shopper program for communities. But really Community Impressions, helps communities learn about their strengths, and weaknesses, as seen through the eyes of a first time visitor. Knowing about the strengths and weaknesses helps those who want to be proactive about the growth of their home communities, and who want to make them more vibrant places to live and work. Ah so maybe we'll just get started. So when communities reach out to me or an agent like Kari and ask about the Community Impressions program, if they have an interest in doing this, immediately, I try to find a community that has some similarities, we often look at demographics, ah or business community, community involvement, we like to have some similarities in North Dakota clearly is a small state, and so everybody in Cavalier has certainly heard about Hillsboro. But we try to be far enough apart, or you don't know all of the intricate details about each community, but enough, just enough to know about it. Maybe your community and your school has been involved in athletic events, or maybe Speech and Debate or you know, there are some connections. So I look at census numbers. And according to that, Hillsboro's population is about 1624 residents. And Cavalier stands at about 1238, give or take, right? So pretty close in size. And so when we start this program, I reach out to the local agent like Kari, and talk about our orientation program process. So we like to go into the community and talk about a team, a team approach. So finding that group of volunteers who are willing to participate in the program. And then we do an orientation, so you know what the expectations are. So Kari, if I could ask you, when you first approached the community about this, how did you proceed with orientation? And we do have kind of a script that you can talk to community members about, but what did that look like in Cavalier? Kari Helgoe- Well, the first person that I reached out to was Rachel, you know, I mean, and talked to her and asking her, you know, I sit with her on the chamber board, and is this something that they'd be interested in doing, of course, I had visited with you as well about, you know, what would be a good matchup and which way we go, and Rachel is just one of those individuals that she is actively always promoting the city of Cavalier, and looking towards the future and some different growth pieces, so, and she's got a lot of great connections. So when we talked about an orientation, I kind of put it into Rachel's lap a little bit, you know, I mean, looking for some of those ones that she might that might be interested in doing this. And we met for a couple hours in the afternoon, if I remember right, Rachel around a conference table and one of the banks and we kind of just went through all the guidelines, and we had a full table of people that were interested at, you know, just coming to check it out to see eventually, you know, what would it all entail and go through and we went from top to bottom, some of the difference when you say like a secret shopper. Not only is it just retail, but it also involves all of the, the aspects of the community, from the hospital, in the schools, to the parks and a lot of the businesses so a lot of different entities and kind of thinking about coming at it from different ways, Rachel had such a wide variety of people that she brought to the table, not only male and female, but also younger families, some that were established in the city for a while, so a lot of different inputs, and at the end of the orientation, we really just kind of sat down and talked about their time. And could they, you know, invest in it because it meant traveling either, you know, at least one time, if not more, and what they could do and how they could divide it out. Jodi Bruns- And you make a really good point that, I think it's important not to bring the same 10 people who are always involved in the community, which we, we need those people 125%. However, I think it's really important to bring people perhaps who are new to the community, because their perspective would certainly be different than those who have lived somewhere their entire life. And not that one is better than the other, but certainly a different perspective. So that's a great point. So Brenda, I'm curious, why did you get involved with community impressions? Brenda Stallman- Well,as you know, Jodi, Jodi and I met through the rural leadership program through NDSU. And so that was our first meeting. And you actually asked me if I would be interested in so I was it's a personal passion of mine to visit small communities and look for those hidden treasures and things that you don't often hear about or see driving by on the interstate. So it was a perfect fit for me. As you know, the the transfer of the leadership of this program went from myself to the the extension office, and then and then subsequently, our county agent transferred to a different community out of our state. So that probably made a different look for how we approached it here in Hillsboro, and really, I think, speaks to how it was done in Cavalier and the necessity of having a strong team, and looking outside your traditional associations um  that you always go to and find those new people in your communityAnd those that might have a different eye when looking at a community. Jodi Bruns- good points, good points. Rachel why did you get involved? Why did you think this would be a good program for Cavalier? Rachel Morrison- Yeah, when Kari came and talked to me about it, we just kind of visited about the importance of that fresh perspective on your community. I have lived in Cavalier my entire life. So it's easy to drive past maybe that same eyesore every day, and it just kind of fades into the background or, like I dropped my kids off at school every day. So I know where to find it. I don't need the signs. So to have somebody come in and say, Hey, we couldn't find your school, you need some signs, or, hey, that building on Main street, ohhh, yikes, it was just something that that fresh perspective, it was just so invaluable to us. So we really, really got that out of it that we were looking for.Jodi Bruns- I think that's really interesting, how many times you drive through a community for the first time and wonder why is that pile of wood there? or Why? Why don't they do that gravel? Rachel Morrison- Or how  come nobody's approached that before?Jodi Bruns- Why don't they paint that building. And that's true. I mean, we we do it in our own homes, we look at something for so long, we just don't even see that it's an eyesore anymore. So that's a really good, good perspective. So um so as you prepare to travel to each community um so you you had some orientation. I know when I went to Hillsboro we talked about taking a lot of pictures. So making sure you're taking and documenting your visit, visit with people. I mean, we even talk a little bit about maybe getting into kind of a role where we're putting on a hat of thinking about a visitor for the first time. And I know that you have been to each other's communities, perhaps but not with such a critical eye. We might go for a ballgame or go to visit family but really to dig in and and talk to people like you're there for the first time. I will let me start with Brenda. So when you when you went and visited, what maybe what were you hoping to accomplish when you when you traveled to the other community? Brenda Stallman- Well, two things like I mentioned before, I really enjoyed visiting other small towns in North Dakota. So it was just personal enjoyment that I was looking forward to. But secondly, things that I could garnish from the hill or from the Cavalier community that we could bring back to Hillsboro and say I saw some really cool things up in in Cavalier and these are things that we should probably look at here too. Just looking for I don't know just how a community presents itself and how the people treat their their visitors and guests. I think communities each have their own type of culture. And I find that interesting as well. So I was looking forward to, to seeing how the community of Cavalier presents themselves to to people visiting there and, and learning from them and just not knowing not what to expect, really, as you said, I, my experience going to Cavalier was at night going to ballgames. So, to me, it was really fun to go up there in a daylight looking for new perspectives, looking at the layout of the community, and how it's so beautifully nestled around the river. And those are all things I did not see before. So just going with an open mind expecting to see things differently than what I had seen in the past. Jodi Bruns- It's a great perspective. So Rachel, or let me What were your your expectations? What were you hoping to see? Or did you go with them like kind of a predetermined idea of what you would see?Rachel Morrison- You know, I really didn't know what to expect. We sent a couple different groups to Hillsboro, when you talked about the secret shopper. It reminded me that we had one couple go. And they had just recently moved to Cavalier, gone through the experience of buying a home and everything that that entails. And so they went to Hillsboro, and did that exact same experience. And they just kind of acted out and looked around like, we're looking for housing, what what else would that lifestyle bring to us? And they had a great response. The group that I went with, we were doing more downtown shopping, talking to the people, the school facility, there were a couple things that we noticed right away, and it was the community pride, like everywhere, people that lived in Hillsboro, they loved it. And it really made us want to find out why,  what do they love so much about living there? We got to the softball complex, and saw there was a playground there. And we were like, Oh my gosh, that's what we want and Cavalier. When we talked to the people from Hillsboro afterwards, they said, Yeah, we got this grant for it, let us give you the information. And just that exchanging of that resources was so important. And it was just it really gives you a way to follow up on not just these first impressions, but how do we exchange these ideas and make it take real steps from it afterwards.Jodi Bruns- And I think that is the real beauty of the program, as I have participated, just as I had one, traveled with other communities to do the exchange just as a participant, but also to be a community report out. We'll talk about that a little bit. I think that's where the richest information comes from, is to why why do we have to reinvent the wheel? I mean, if if another community has found the funds to create a playground or a pool or a softball facility, why can't we learn from each other and find out how to make that successful? Something Brenda said to  that, I think that you kind of reiterated was the fact that every community has a culture. And that can be warm and welcoming and prideful, or it can be negative. And it's kind of off putting. I've experienced both. And unfortunately, it can be kind of shocking. I had the experience of going to community as a secret shopper, and I asked a waitress “so we are in town for a couple of hours, what what can I do,  I have a couple of hours until my meeting, what can I do?” And I was clearly told there is nothing here to do. And you should go to X community. And not the response I was expecting I kind of thought or do I tell them why I'm here. But I didn't. You know, but we included that in the report out and thinking about a community's culture and how it affects the bottom line. You know, we can talk about, you know, just being a welcoming, prideful community. But those things also affect the economics of a community. We talk about customer service, and will people stop and Cavalier, or will they go to the next community? If they don't feel welcome? Why would they stop and buy gas there? Why would they stay and seek out a specific restaurant? So I think all of those things are pretty telling when you embark on a project in a program like this. So Kari, I'm curious as the local agent and you also live in Cavalier when your group returned from their exchange in Hillsboro? What were some of the things you heard? Were they excited about your experience? any surprises? Kari Helgoe- You know, like Rachel said, they went down in multiple groups and did some different pieces when it came to that, you know, I, this group really took the lead on what they were doing, Rachel was there was their point person, and she was helping put a lot of those pieces together. But they were the thing that I heard in the saw with all of the pieces that were coming through via emails and those reports, they were really excited. They were really thrilled at the medical facilities, the nursing home, just the the warm, welcoming home feel that was going on some different things that you know, I mean, normally for Hillsboro, for us, it's like it can be a drive by we stopped for athletics, but it's a drive by it's right there on the interstate you gas up, you grab something to eat and go, um, you don't get to see the different pieces that are in their town, from their golf courses to the, to their downtown unique coffee spots that they have that all small communities can really have. But it's like what brings us in. So as they dug deeper into it, you could just hear the excitement of what they liked. And then some of the things that they didn't. So they put a lot of pride in a lot of work into what they were doing. So but again, I'm going to, you know, like when you can find community members like Rachel and Brenda are both super strong proponents for what they have, and are always looking for ways to improve it. They put their best foot forward. And it showed not only in the words that we were hearing back, but also their report outs. Jodi Bruns- So Brenda, I'm curious, in the packet that we supply each community, we every participant gets a packet of potential questions or things to look for just simply as a guide. And we always ask to think about your first impression. Roll your windows down when you come into town. Take a critical eye look around for signage. What was what was your first impression when you drove into Cavalier with a critical eye? Were you What What were you looking for? And what were some of the first things that hit you?Brenda Stallman- Well, we and I think we could say this for both teams from each town, did careful viewing of the websites that each community offers before we went. So we kind of had an idea of what businesses were existing in each community. But what I noticed first and enjoyed and appreciated was Cavaliers business district. And I think that probably is one of the stark differences between Hillsboro and Cavalier and that Hillsboro is a bedroom community. And so we are really struggling with our downtown. Whereas my impression was very excited to see the downtown vibrancy and Cavalier in the cars, it probably was close to lunch hour, but there were cars lined up, up and down the street on Main Street, and I'm a coffee drinker and I looked for and found the coffee shop right away. And that speaks volumes to me, because that's the kind of thing I enjoy in a small town is a place to get together with people and get the vibe of the community and enjoy a cup of coffee. And I think that is a real telling sign of, of how a community operates by just sitting and observing in a local coffee shop. And so that was exciting to me to see the vibrancy of their downtown district music playing on speakers as you walk up and down the street. So I thought that was really really exciting. Jodi Bruns- Great observations that's that's neat. One thing that I found surprising when we did the community report out when I attended in Hillsboro, and your mayor Terry Sandow had said, one of the first impressions they're working to correct in Hillsboro is sometimes the smell that comes from the beet processing plant. And that is one of the very questions that's in our packet of suggested things to consider is are the smells of the community. And I had never really thought about the implications of such a thing until Mayor Sandow mentioned that and I thought , wow, what a, what a great observation and really thinking critically about all of the important things that people experience when they come to a community for the first time. So, I thought that was pretty impressive that you were at least having the conversation about that.Rachel Morrison- So I can add to that note, when we were looking at the website for Hillsboro beforehand, we were visiting on the way down and checking everything out, and we loved the that you address the smell like it said, you know what that smell is that smells like success. And we just thought that was such a fun, great way to play on that and we just thought that was just an awesome little tagline. So kudos to Hillsboro for that.Jodi Bruns- Right. It is what it is. So make the best Right.Rachel Morrison- exactly Jodi Bruns-Thanks. So um was there any major surprises? I mean, I think about what I have done the the exchange, you certainly go in with some expectations um . So I might just open it up and ask, did you have some preconceived ideas about what you um  would not only see, but maybe how you would be received? Perhaps um it would be customer service or things you've heard from other people who are familiar with the community? Was there any major surprises or expectations that maybe didn't follow through for what you thought might happen? Brenda Stallman- I would go with the idea of growth in a community with building of new housing. And this was an error on my part. I did ask, we looked for housing developments, because that's how Hillsboro is kind of expanding their development by development, they are building and feeling of developments where in the immediate community of Cavalier. That wasn't real obvious. But what I did not see and probably miss, one of the best components of the community of Cavalier is outside of the initial building center, there are Community Housing groups building out in the trees along, you know, outside areas that I did not see. So I'm sure that would have been a real beautiful look, had I explored a little further and and found that and so my first impression was that there was not actually housing being developed, which is not the case that is just not on the first look coming into town. Jodi Bruns- Rachel, how about you?Rachel Morrison- You know, one big thing that surprised me when actually during the report out when Hillsboro came to Cavalier growing up in Cavalier, I've spent countless hours at Icelandic State Park, which is just five miles west of Cavalier. And so for me, that's such a big part of our community. So when the team came, and they said, Oh, we didn't even realize it's so close, there was no signage. And it was like such an aha moment for me, like, we have this major asset, like, we got to play it up more, we got to get the signage there. We got to build that so that everybody knows about it, we don't want this to be our best kept secret. And that was just a lightbulb moment for me for sure.Jodi Bruns- That's great. Great. So some of the logistics of this program, I'll just run down for our listeners. So once we've established the two communities that we'll be doing the exchange, we do an orientation. So I reach out to the local agent, Keri did the orientation in Cavalier and I did that in Hillsboro. And then you're armed with that packet of information, and you determine the communities determine how they will do the exchange. So I know some of you, some have sent to carloads at different times, depending on how the schedule allowed, and then you met back, you meet back and gather your information and create a presentation. So then you go back to the community and do a report out. Now I wasn't in Cavalier, but I was in Hillsboro, when the Cavalier came to do the report out. And I just will never forget the energy in that room at the courthouse that they. Um It, it was one, a packed house and people I think were genuinely excited about what Cavalier was going to say about the community. And I think it's important to know that this isn't necessarily, I would say a gotcha kind of program, I know that there's been some concern that they're just going to come in and and point out all the negative things and that one, that is not the point. And two, it shouldn't be sugar coated. You know, that's really not the point. This has to be a learning experience. What can we do to make our community a better place one into I think it's important to highlight the important and positive things happening in a community because those things are prevalent too. And sometimes we can be our own worst enemies and think about, everybody's leaving, we don't have anything going on. And that's never the case, in every exchange that's happened, positive things have happened, not only for outside the community, but also for inside the community. When we talk about culture, I think that's a really important piece of this program, is to also continually tell your existing residents about the good things happening in a community. So I'm curious, Brenda, if you could tell us about that day in Hillsboro. I believe you were kind of the point person on that with the local extension office and gathering people and what did you tell people? How did you get people to that report out telling them the Cavalier was coming to town to talk about their visit to Hillsboro?Brenda Stallman-  I think that's exactly like what you stated and that people are interested in wanting to hear how others perceive our town. And from my own perspective, I was a little nervous because like you say, and what was mentioned by Rachel is that you, you, you get used to things that maybe others will see for the first time. And they maybe not be the way you want people to see your community. And I found myself comparing the two communities and that wasn't actually what we were asked to do. And yet I do see differences. I wish some things in Hillsboro were like what we saw in Cavalier, and I kind of worried about what they would say about our downtown, because we do have a lot of vacant spaces. But um talking to people and asking them to come was an easy sell. Because we do want to grow, we want to win. It's nice to hear the strengths and Cavalier did just a wonderful job and and presenting our community in a positive way. But I think people generally just wanted to hear what outside people have to say about our community. So it was really an easy sell. And I was pleased to to see all the people that did show up. Jodi Bruns-So what's happened because of this exchange? Brenda Stallman- Well, I would have to say that the pandemic happened. So that's probably made a difference in how things progress. But I can tell you that our economic development, folks have offered beautification grants to our businesses in Hillsboro. And we do have a brewery being built in town here, we have mixed feelings on if we're going to build a business is that the kind of business that we want in Hillsboro, but it's going to be a new building and a good looking building. So that that is positive for our community, and hopefully will bring some employment opportunities. Our Historical Society is really strengthening in numbers and in their, their projects. They've done some exterior work on our museum, and really are presenting themselves in a way that draws young people into that organization and wanting to hear about history, which is refreshing, because as you know, in small communities, you have your same members on every board. But this group seems to be strengthening and growing. And we're in we're happy to see that. So I think there's been some some positive changes, it's hard to see them on an instant notice, but over time, I I can only say that positive things have happened. So I am very pleased. Jodi Bruns- Good observations, Rachel how about what are things you've observed because of the exchange?Rachel Morrison- I would agree, you know, it's hard with the pandemic to see this immediate influx of change. But something that I wasn't even expecting to gain going into this that I've seen many times. It's just the,  the relationships that were formed, you know, we think of Hillsboro now, like, oh, they've got that program, I'm going to email that person that I talked to that day, and get a tip from them. And the exchanging of resources back and forth has been huge. We've had a couple different strategic planning sessions on a couple different boards that I'm on. And it seems like there's always a tidbit that we can throw in that, you know, that when they came here from Hillsboro, this is what they said, So, so put that on our plan, we want to get that done as soon as we can. And just I think when other people hear that somebody else came to our community and made that observation and had that perspective, it just goes a little bit further, it just kind of kind of puts the green light on some of these things. So it's been very, very valuable that way.Jodi Bruns- Just probably reinforce your point that the expert comes from 50 miles, we tend to believe that we can we can say something and promote something to the local community 1000 times but when someone from outside comes in and says it, it makes all the difference in the world. So...Kari Helgo- Jodi, I want to just jump in there really quick because I serve on the the rec board and we've been fighting with that pool building, which has been falling apart and I was like they and the group from Hillsboro brought it up and they're like, it's a beautiful park. But then you have this little you know, this building that really needs a lot of love and tender and we have been, we had been working and kind of trying to do something and talking and going and our voices just weren't falling on the right ears, but they heard it in the mean came across from what they did. And we now have a new roof on it. It has a whole new different look to the exterior, it blends into the pieces. It is no longer an eyesore, which is really great. And then Rachel you want to talk about that bike program that you all of a sudden you're connected. I mean, you talked about doing something that you wanted to do. You know, bring a little bit more notice to the park, and you guys did it you made that happen in the city.Rachel Morrison- Yeah,there's now a new bike share Co Op program that we've got. And there's 10 bikes that are now located on Main Street in Cavalier and 10 out at Icelandic State Park, you can rent a bike through an app, you can use it for daily rentals, hourly rentals, and you can use it on the path that connects Cavalier to Icelandic State Park. And we noticed tons of people, you know, renting them in one place, riding the town and then being able to park them there, you don't have to go back where it came from. So it was a really good connection point that came out of that thissummer. Jodi Bruns- That's an awesome success story. That's great to hear. Yes.And I think you've both made an excellent point that community change does not happen overnight. And certainly doesn't happen any quicker in a pandemic. And so, I think some takeaways are it's important one, to be really honest with each other. And, and no one, in my experience has been malicious, it's been a genuine concern, asking good solid questions. And then supplying some honest feedback. And then also, I think it's really important that patience is important. And the big changes don't happen overnight. But it's also important to recognize that partnerships are equally as important as a building is. And so you know, when we think about some of that change, it may not necessarily mean a new business, it could mean a new sign, telling people how to get the Icelandic State Park, or whatever that might be, it might be a call between two auditors exchanging information on a grant. You just never know. So I think that's really an invaluable piece to this particular program. So I might end with asking Kari, so what would be your advice for other communities who might be interested in participating in community impressions? Kari Helgo- You know, I think if you have an interest or it piques your interest, ask just call your local Extension agent. They might not know about the program right away depends if you know what you have, and they'll do a little digging. But I think that that gets the ball rolling as long as you can ask. And then all we do is we reach out to Jodi, and she'll come up with Okay, some some of the other communities that she's heard from, or thoughts and and pieces, but it's just a matter of kind of putting it in and what what can we do. So the first step is just following through. Jodi Bruns- Yeah, great. Thank you. Thank you, everyone for sharing your input, and your insight into the community impressions program. And as Kari said, if you have an interest or further questions, reach out to your local county extension office. And we'll make those connections. So appreciate everyone's time today. So thanks for listening to Thriving On The Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode, visit ag.ndsu.edu slash thriving on the prairie. You can find more resources for families and communities@ndsu.edu backslash extension. This has been a production of NDSU extension, extending knowledge changing lives.

Resources:Jane's contact information, Jane.strommen@ndsu.edu More about the Community of Care model, https://communityofcarend.com/ Transcript:Jodi Bruns: Welcome to Thriving on the Prairie. A podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspire North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jodi Bruns, Leadership and Civic Engagement specialist, with NDSU Extension. I'm joined today with Jane Strommen, NDSU Extension gerontology specialist and I'm glad that Jane has decided to talk to me today about the Community of Care program. And what that's all about, how it is impacting communities across the state of North Dakota. So welcome, Jane, and thanks for joining me.Jane Strommen: Thanks for having me, Jodi, looking forward to it.Jodi: So I started working with.. with Jane and her team who works on community of care to facilitate some meetings, thinking about making this opportunity available to other communities. And so, I think it's important that we share exactly what is this program, Community of Care and what's happening with communities that are embracing this particular program.Jane: Community of Care is a nonprofit organization that started in rural Cass County back in 2003. And it was really started by the Good Samaritan Society as a pilot project. At that time, the Good Samaritan Society was interested in how to help older adults and their family members that were living in the community because their core business was on skilled nursing facilities across the country. And so they wanted to do a pilot and they chose Arthur, kind of as the foundation area to do this project because that was where the company was founded. And so we had some seed money from the Good Samaritan Society and at that time also a grant from the Almstead Commission, to look at how do we start addressing the needs of older adults that live in a rural community. And so it really started as a pilot project and just engaging members and the community and talking about what's going on in rural Cass County. There's a lot of rural communities, small towns that comprise kind of the geographic area. And so, it began as a conversation, inviting people to be part of some meetings and tried to get representatives from all of the different geographic areas and communities, as well as making sure we had, you know, business and commerce, education, faith communities, healthcare, social services, government, whether it was the city or county. We had some legislators, and invited people together and when we learned about what was going on in our state. What were some of the challenges and then we started doing some discussion and needs assessment around what are the needs in this particular area, rural Cass County. And so that's that was kind of how it first started.Jodi : So what were you hearing from people? I assume that there were older adults who were part of this planning process. And when they came to the meeting and said, “We think we want to be part of this in our community needs this” why... what.. what we're hearing at that time? Jane: Well, when we did a kind of a needs assessment. We went through a fairly structured process to to identify the needs and there were alot.  There were a lot of needs identified, but the ones that really rose to the top of the list was the need for a volunteer program that could do…. provide a lot of different services for older adults, but the biggest area was around transportation. Rural Cass County and you know,  had some, some services in the county you know a dentist, part time clinic, those types of things, but for a big portion of folks living here they needed to travel to the Fargo/Moorhead area for services. And so that became a kind of the top need, as as well. There was a need also for just information. How do people find out about services and, you know. Because it's not something that you just know or or often you... you're really not interested until maybe a crisis occurs and all of a sudden, where do I get this? And you know, you don't even know what questions to ask. So, they talked about, you know, let's let's develop some kind of a resource center where there are staff that can help people that would be local where people could go. So those are some of the first things that we started with, is developing a volunteer program and developing a resource center staffed by a social worker, a care coordinator that could help people with whatever it was that they needed help with. Not being constrained by any kind of government funding that says you can only serve people of this age or you can only do, you know, your program areas, only this kind of narrow window. We were, we had great flexibility and how we were able to serve peopleJodi: So I think it's interesting. I read a statistic this morning that said between 2010 and 2025 the number of adults ages 65 and older in North Dakota is expected to grow by 52%. In 1980, older adults were 12% of the population, by 2025 they're expected to be 18% of the state's population. So older adults continue to be an economic driver in our rural communities. And I think this program is one way to make sure that our older adults can remain as active citizens in our communities all over the state. Jane: Absolutely. You know, our older adults, you know, we have a higher percentage of older adults living in rural counties than we do our metro areas. And we know that older adults really contribute to to their community in in great ways. In addition to just the economy and financially, but they are also great volunteers. And I'll just give you an example, community of care has a volunteer program and the majority of their volunteers are older adults. They're retired and they're stepping up to fill a need in the community. And it's really a win-win situation. And, you know, they're a key element of success for Community of Care because they're supporting it in so many ways. And to be able to help our older adults feel like their community is a good place for them to retire and continue to live as they age is, I think, really important work.Jodi: I read also today that some North Dakota older adults far exceed the national average in volunteering in communities. Statewide 41% of older adults volunteered in 2017 compared to the national average of 29 and a half percent. That, I mean, that's amazing that people continue to see value in helping neighbors and helping each other and just the value of prolonging people staying in their community and in how important that is. I think that's that really says a lot about the integrity of our communities and the people who live there.Jane: I think it speaks to like who we are in North Dakota and beyond. Where we help each other. We... we want to help our neighbors, our friends. And older adults, just because they get to a certain age don't stop doing that, they're continuing to serve on the church on the school board and and volunteering for, you know, there are many times, keeping the community going because of their community service. So it's, it's, you know, they are a real asset in our state and we have a growing number. And in addition, you know it's it's really important as a person ages to to feel like they have a purpose. You know, everyone needs to have a reason to get up in the morning and to be able to have things that are you're passionate about that you can contribute to. I think it's just a win-win for, for everyone.Jodi: So the expansion of this program I think is pretty important. So it's obviously been very successful in Cass County.Jane: Yes.Jodi: And and now there was some funding through the legislature to help try a pilot project in a couple of other communities. And those communities have been identified in Ransom County and Morton County. And so as we have been working to facilitate some meetings and find out some interest. Clearly these communities are very interested. And when we visited with them, some of the identified needs, I'll, I'll just read some of these, that.. that when we asked what's what's needed in those particular communities. You know, the number one issue remains, just as you said it was in Cass County, is transportation. And what I found interesting is, even if there is public transportation, many counties have provided like a county van or a bus for to take older adults to doctors appointments and so forth. The struggle is is if they have, let's say a cancer treatment, and they just aren't physically able to ride in a van or bus for for the extended period or wait for other patients. So, I mean, that was, that was pretty eye opening. I just hadn't, I think what you said earlier is pretty important, you just don't know the need until you're faced with it.Jane:  You know, fortunate to have some transportation services, but what we hear so often from people and not, not just in rural Cass, but, you know, across the state and all rural areas, have issues with limited transportation options for them to access services. And I think when you have a fixed schedule or fixed route, it becomes really challenging for older adults who have very specific transportation needs to really get their, their needs met. And you provide it in a good example of, you know, somebody has a an 11 O'clock doctor's appointment, but they need to get on the van at seven, you know, to get to that appointment at eleven then they can't get back home until later in the afternoon because it's a fixed route. It gets to be a long day, especially if somebody isn't feeling well. And so there's so many situations where that maybe the public transportation options really just don't work. Somebody needs, you know, has dialysis or maybe they are getting chemo treatments and so it's maybe multiple times a week. And that person really wants to go in, have their appointment and come back home. So matching what's available with some volunteer transportation really helps fill a need or fill one of those gaps. And in our experience, experience at Community of Care is you know, those the volunteer drivers, you know, it's, it's a great way for some socialization to happen as well. When they're on the road and going to appointment and oftentimes we hear that, “Oh well, we went out for pie after the appointment” or, you know, just somebody else that's checking in with them seeing how they're doing. And so sometimes it serves more than just the transportation need, as well. Jodi: So that was identified as the number one issue in these meetings as I'm looking at this list and the second one, you led us into that pretty nicely, is friendly visits from people. Just phone calls, companionship, coffee visits,socialization, someone to check on me. You know, those are all the things that were listed as another need. I mean, we're busy and we have places to go and things to do and for people whose lives have slowed down, we can't minimize the importance of some of that companionship and socialization.Jane: Absolutely, and I think this last year has just really highlighted that with a pandemic and many older adults feeling more isolated from friends and family and getting out to, you know, different functions and just seeing people and being engaged with the community. And so it's something that we, you know, we live, I live in a small community and, you know, we we reach out to people, you know, we're friends with people, we'll maybe see them at church or the grocery store or the cafe, those types of things. But it's something that can easily be enhanced in our rural communities by a program like Community of Care. It maybe just needs to have somebody coordinating some of these types of activities and making sure that we are reaching out to those people who really could benefit from that friendly visit, somebody just checking in on them. So it's maybe just need somebody coordinating that effort.Jodi: And finally, something else that I heard that I I learned was such an important part of this program too, is the connection of resources. Again, if you're put in a situation where you have, let's say you have an older adult as a parent who is in need of some services, where do you go for that information? I mean, all of a sudden I mean there's no rule book, all of a sudden you're you're in that situation where you're in a place of need, what do you do? And I see that as a number one factor in Community of Care is to have a point person that can be reached when someone needs a resource. Jane: Absolutely. I think Community of Care has been around long enough now that they're a known resource in the community. And if somebody has a question, so maybe there's a new need and a family somebody needing some in home health or some kind of service, they know that they can call Community of Care, they can set up an appointment. They can go in and meet with staff. And they can sit down with them or talk to them and tell them about these are the types of resources that are available to help your loved one or help you if it's for the person themselves. And so it's such a need because people don't seek out the services until there's a real need. They don't try to learn about these services in advance because it's just it's, number one, older people really don't like to think about themselves as aging or being in a state where they're less than fully independent and so it'sJodi: Right.Jane: So maybe just a natural tendency for us not to kind of learn too much about that or have to think about that but, you know it does happen, and we need to have that information. And being able to have somebody who's knowledgeable, staff that's knowledgeable and they're local and they know what's available and they can can help you, I think means a lot. I've had an opportunity to do some statewide studies for different topics, one was around family caregiving, a number of years ago, and I heard over and over and over again from family members, “I wish I knew where to go. I wish there were some place that I could go to that I could just get a simple list”. Instead of maybe going and trying to search your website and you know just really not understanding. There was a simple way that they could understand what's available. “I live in Hettinger, what's available here?” You know, I, it doesn't do me any good to have research and find something that's only available in Grand Forks, so it has been a real stressful time for family members when they're needing to find services or some type of help. In more an emergency situation too and they don't really, they don't know where to turn. And sometimes they don't know what questions to ask. And so just having a local resource available has been just a great asset.Jodi: So, just so people are clear. Again, we're visiting today and I'm joined with Jane Strommen the NDSU Extension gerontology specialist and we're talking about the Community of Care program. And just so people are clear about what exactly this is, so I it as I understand it's a program where a volunteer coordinator is hired and I see that as a point person in the community, to assist people with their with finding the necessary services for particular need. With the end goal of allowing older adults to remain in their home as long as they feel safe and independent. and so Community of care, this volunteer coordinator might assist someone that needs transportation to a doctor appointment or maybe they need some errands run, or groceries picked up, or prescriptions, or maybe they just need a phone call.Jane: You're talking about the Ransom county and the Morton county sites right now.Jodi: Right. Yes.Jane: We, NDSU Extension had received a grant from the North Dakota Department of Human Services last February, and it was around enhancing home and community-based services in North Dakota for older adults. And we had applied for a grant to look at how could we replicate something like Community of Care in ...in a couple other rural communities. There had been a lot of interest over the years from different community leaders and legislators, like “how do we get this in our community.” And so we applied for this this grant when it became available to start working on this; our goal in Ransom County and Morton County is to to work with the local, local community members and identifying the needs, which we know we mentioned volunteer transportation was listed and we are in the process of hiring a volunteer coordinator for both communities that would be a part-time position to start with. And that really need is really to develop a volunteer program. We're wanting to understand, you know, how easy is it to establish this type of program, it doesn't mean, it's not going to be exactly like Community of Care. It will be unique to what the needs are and how those community members envision this this kind of program in their own community. And we're calling it kind of Aging in Community, and identifying unique names for each of these programs. But we start with part time staff that really can start working on these top needs that have been identified. And what we're hoping to do is use the resources that we have within the staff of Community of Care now in rural Cass, and in in Ransom County there's another program called the heart program that provides similar type of services and we're really looking to them to help these, like in Ransom county, to help develop a volunteer program. And figure out how to, to have a quality program, you know, having the policies and procedures and the training and everything done well, there's a little bit of work involved to do that. We have some of the expertise and a team of people that are going to be helping these two communities, develop these services. You know, in Ransom County, it was kind of the volunteer coordinator. In Morton County, they they talked about the volunteer coordinator, but also somebody that would.. could really be maybe help develop a resource center. You know, where like at Community of Care, people can call there, they can walk in, they can learn about services, and so that's one of the things that we're looking at in Morton County, as well. But the goal is to. how do we replicate these Community of Care model in these two communities, but making it their own. It will look unique to those communities and it's really, the beauty of the program is that it needs to be owned by the community. And that's how Community of Care started and that's why it's been successful is that community ownership. Community members need to decide what do they want. How did they want it to look….what services should be offered those types of things.Jodi: That is what I've admired most, as I have learned about this program, is no one ever went to these communities and said this is how you have to do this. This is how it should look. There's no cookie cutter approach. It is you identify the need, and let's do our best to meet those needs for community members. Jane: Absolutely. You know, when Community of Care started, rural Cass County, it was really kind of like a blank piece of paper and we brought people together and we talked about, yes, there are many needs. These are the ones that we want to start with. And we started. We just started offering those services and within two or three years, the steering committee members were saying, this, our funding, our grant funding was going to be coming to an end. And they said, “We need to figure out how this continues, because we don't want this program to end.” And that is when Community of Care started the process of incorporating and getting this articles of incorporation in place, its initial board of directors and getting its 501 c3 status and figuring out how, how can we sustain this financially and otherwise. It would not have happened had it not been for the engagement and the passion of the local community members.Jodi: So who are some of the organizations that that you have partnered with to make this such a successful program? Because you know, obviously, you're the point person at NDSU Extension, but rarely do we ever do any of these programs alone. It's always about a partnership. So who are some of the partners in this that makes it so successful?Jane: Absolutely. You know, we're working with the Community of Care staff, you know, obviously, and Myrna Hanson is their executive director and she is just as passionate, I know their board of directors, they feel passionate about helping other communities, as well to figure out how they can have a program like this, bringing more resources for older adults and so she's been a key partner. We've also been working with Quality Health Associates, Jamie Steig is our local person who has really been instrumental and interested in figuring out how how their organization can be helpful, as well. And locally, we depend on our local Extension family and community wellness agents and so our agent in Ransom County, Deb Lee, and our agent in Morton county, Vanessa Hoines have been that local liaison, the local point person. They know the communities. They're well respected, they know which community members to to engage in these conversations as we begin the work in both, both of those counties. And so those are some of the partners that we, and of course other resources that you know like yourself, Jodi, Jodi helping with meetings and facilitating some different planning processes have all been really critical for the project to be successful.Jodi: Interesting. There's such a diverse group of people on with each community, you know, maybe it's clergy in one, a clergy member and just volunteers from the senior center, who help with meals. And maybe it's county health and other volunteers who have joined our calls, who just deeply care about what's happening in their community, as well. They're really concerned about the safety of older adults in their community and wanting them to to stay in their home as long as they feel safe to do so.Jane: We don't just look to those individuals or professionals who are are working in the kind of that aging network world, we're looking beyond that. Who represents the community? and do they have a concern or a vested interest in keeping their older adults in their community and safe and healthy? And so we do have different different community members that are are coming to our meetings and wanting to be part of this work, and I've been just really pleased with both communities. That you know, people are good. They love their community and they want to help. And even in the midst of a pandemic, people are willing to give up their time and and come to meetings and this is this is good, this is good. This would be good for our community, let's figure out how we can do it.Jodi: Alright Jane. So if, if people listening to this want this particular program in their community or need more information should they reach out to you?Jane: Yes, absolutely, I'd be glad to talk about what we're doing with this aging and community project and to give an update and share what I know and what's going on. And so I'd be happy to talk with anyone who wants more information.Jodi: Great, great. So people can contact your local Extension agent for more information and connect you with Jane or you can go ahead and reach Jane via email and Jane, do you want to share your email address?Jane: Yes, it's jane.strommen@ndsu.eduJodi: Alright. Thanks Jane. Jane: Absolutely.Jodi: And we appreciate everyone joining us today. Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode visit ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities at ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension. Extending knowledge, changing lives. Thanks for joining us today.

Marie Hvidsten, Macine Lukach and Andrea Bowman from NDSU extension join Jodi Bruns to talk about the Master Remote Work Professional certificate course, a 1-month specialized training designed to equip workers with the tools and skills needed to work from home as a remote worker, freelancer, or entrepreneur.TranscriptJodi Bruns: Welcome to Thriving on the Prairie. A podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspire North Dakota movers shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. Hi. I'm Jodi Bruns, Leadership and Civic Engagement specialist with NDSU Extension.Today we're joined with three of my colleagues who I work with on a pretty regular basis. And the topic today we want to share with you is regarding our remote work certification program that we kicked off in August. So I'd like our other presenters here to introduce themselves. I'll start out with Marie.Marie Hvidsten: Thanks. Jodi, good morning. I'm Marie Hvidsten and I'm the rural leadership specialist with NDSU Extension. And I've been working with the remote work course the past several months. And I'm really enjoying it and appreciate the opportunity to work with the other three from NDSU as a coach.Jodi: Thanks Marie. Macine.Macine Lukach: Thanks Jodi. I'm Macine Lukach. I'm a Program Coordinator for NDSU Extension in the area of leadership and community development. And I, like Jodi and Marie, I've been working with this program and have found it very beneficial and hope to see others benefit from it also.Jodi: Thanks, Maxine and Andrea.Andrea Bowman: I'm Andrea Bowman, and I also work for NDSU Extension in the area of Leadership and Civic Engagement as a program coordinator and I, too, have been working with this program since last spring, and I'm excited to bring it to the people of North Dakota.Jodi: Thanks, everyone. So what brings us here today is not unlike many people, most Americans, many Americans, we found ourselves working remotely about mid-March and really thinking about what do we do next, what does this look like? And certainly, sometimes we have done this when weather has prohibited us from driving to our office or workplace, but all of a sudden we found ourselves working at our dining room tables at our home office and so forth. So, we were introduced to a program that Utah State University Extension had been offering on remote work. It's a certification program. So the four of us decided to take that in April. And we felt it was so beneficial that we needed to bring this to North Dakota. And so I'll start with Andrea, so you have done a little research on the data and you know who exactly was working from home and what that looked like. Could you just share some of that information with us? Andrea: Yeah, so for most of us, remote work became really real in in March, probably in North Dakota here and going forward. But when we look back on remote work was actually growing already. And in that you flex jobs in globe Workplace Analytics they focus major upward trend on people working remotely. They've they've noticed that over the years. So in the US from 2016 to 2017 remote work grew 7.9%. If they look back at the last five years, it was a 44% increase, in the last 10 years a 91% increase. So definitely already trending up in the amount of people that were working remotely. Then when we look at when we get into the pandemic time and when everyone had to make the shift quite quickly; in May of 2020, 100 million Americans were working from home and in June, according to some research at Stanford, and one of their economists, Nicholas Bloom, has some interesting research on remote work. But in June on June 29, 42% of us were working from home. 33% were not working at all. And 26% mostly essential workers were working on site. That's kind of interesting to to look back and realize that remote work was already growing a lot before everyone was kind of thrown into it without a choice. So the exciting thing about this course is that there, there's huge potential for remote work going forward and organizations, allowing some flexible work environments. So we're excited to help people continue to work remotely, but also build those skills that they need, even if it….it was something that they didn't necessarily plan on doing right away.Jodi: When you read those numbers I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised. You know, we kind of live in a bubble and we drive and get in our cars in the morning, we go to work and I just don't think that trend has necessarily hit us. Maybe it's the upper Midwest, or even just, you know, specifically to North Dakota. I also read once that in December, a year ago zoom had 10 million daily participants and then four months later, there were 300 million participants. And the other... zoom isn't the only platform. So I think that that is astounding how people have just, as we've said so many times, pivoted to to remote work. Marie, I wonder if if you could tell us about, so when we went and enrolled as students in a remote work course they really focused on three kinds of specific work: a freelance, an entrepreneur, or a virtual employee. Could you tell us a little bit about each of those or what the definition of each of those are?Marie: Absolutely. So some of us as Andrea talked about probably were working remotely and so you had that opportunity to maybe do something a little bit more what they call freelance. And that is you... you don't have the same employment with the same person or same company, but you are out there looking for, like if you were maybe a writer. Maybe you do an article for a journal, maybe next you do something for a university. Maybe you're going to write a grant so you're, you're kind of skipping around a little bit, but you're finding the work. Another one is starting a business, being an entrepreneur. And I'm guessing that some individuals, now, who, because of their job loss, maybe have started started to think about a a job that they want to or business they want to create. You know, when I was doing my research for my doctorate, I did that on women entrepreneurs in North Dakota. And it was so interesting to hear why someone started their own business and mainly it was flexibility. And when you're doing remote work, you have some flexibility with your working hours, you have some flexibility maybe with how you think about what you are going to work on, especially if you start your own business. So that freelance... that entrepreneurship... those are great opportunities for someone in remote work. And then some are full time employees. So they just don't go to a building, but they're at home, and for many people, that is now that they've experienced it, maybe that's what they want to do for their future.Jodi: I think, if anything, the pandemic has just reinforced that old adage that necessity is the mother of invention and for many people, certainly in our experience as we have coached people through this remote work, that they are able to find maybe they're doing some blogging or some copy editing or, like you said, writing, which is great. I mean that's helped to keep keep people afloat and supplement their income. And so I appreciate that definition and really thinking about being deliberate and choosing some of those work experiences.Marie: I think a lot of people are thinking about where do I want to live and then I'll work there. And now remote work allows that. Because there was one of our previous participants here in North Dakota, who is now gone through the program. That's what she said, I wanted to come back to rural North Dakota and yet I can work across the US doing the same work that I was doing in a building. So I think that's exciting.Jodi: That's an excellent point and research supports that - that people want to live in a place where they call home. Perhaps where family is or that has some nice amenities. And I think if the pandemic taught us anything, that we should value the space that we have here in North Dakota. I can't imagine going through this in a small apartment in in a large city and so that's a really good point to makeJodi: So Macine. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit, tell our listeners about, so we... we took this remote work course, the four of us went through this as students in April. It's a one month course. So what exactly does that look like? Are people just simply logging on and watching videos of course work? Or is it all self-directed learning?  Or what does that look like? Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what the course actually looks like?Macine: As far as the courses comes around, if people are interested, they can find a wealth of information on our NDSU web page. You can go to www.ag.ndsu.edu and then search remote work on that website, you will see the class laid out. The classes are self-paced workshop to a point. It consists of four weekly workshops each Thursday, you can go onto the Canvas site and or it's a zoom link and participate in the weekly workshop. For you review the three modules that you have been working on. Get to know each other, learn from each other. And then on the weeks in between, there are three modules that we, the participants work on and they are in a variety of areas. Some of the modules include work day, communication, workflow, productivity and time management, teamwork, compliance, critical thinking, virtual careers, and remote job development. We'll take a look at those closer, but that's just the titles of them. There's a lot more in each of them. So it's really, there's a lot of different things that are covered. And the program provides us with a lot of different tools that we can apply whether we are looking for remote work or if we are finding ourselves in remote work and just want to add those tools to our toolbox.Jodi: So when we, when we decided to take this course, so there are nine modules and and I, and I thought, as Marie would say, my self talk was “What could I learn?” You go home, you set up your computer, you login and you go to work. Right. And I've shared this example with you. So when I brought my computer and files home and set them up on our dining room table, and then my son came home from college and all of his things were on the table and we..we had five monitors and two computers and phones and files and work. And by the second week it was just overwhelming and we realized we this….I certainly wouldn't want anybody to see that mess. And so when we talked about work day, that really made me rethink - okay, there is a better way to do this. Let's get organized and clean up our workspace, because the one of the first assignments is to take a picture of your workspace and your background and submit that to our program coordinators. And so to me, that was the the incentive. I needed to get organized and and be a better, more effective remote worker. I really hadn't considered that there might be a better way to do remote work. So it was a it was certainly a wake up call for me.So I might ask all of you, I'm probably putting on the spot, but as students. We went through this. So we went through, basically, four weeks. We would log in, we met once with the rest of our classmates from all over the United States. So I think our class was the biggest they'd ever seen at 200 people. And certainly we've seen less... less classes or the enrollment has not been that great. As far as numbers. I mean, we've consistently seen between 50 and 60 students now but at the height of the pandemic when we first were thrown into the remote work, I believe it was about 200. So for me the work day and communication were probably the most impactful modules. I'm wondering what all of you might say really was an impactful piece of the remote work course? If you could share one thing that that really was important to you or made you think differently about how you could work remotely better?Andrea: I to like the... the work day. So I'm a little bit unique in that I had been working remotely for a while already in my part time temporary position for NDSU Extension. And so I already had somewhat of a system, right or wrong, for working remotely and it was working for the most part, but I realized that I wasn't as effective as I could maybe be. And the thing I learned the most is I really had to set some boundaries. Because all of a sudden, just like you, I had three kids at home distance learning. So what was typically my workspace became someone else's workspace. So I had to to shift where I was working from a little bit and just communicating boundaries with everybody that was in the house at the time. Like there's times that you can come and communicate with me. And there's times where I'm on a call and I can't visit with you at the time. So I think that was my, my biggest takeaway and just I learned so much on the opportunities for virtual careers out there. I didn't realize that that there was so much so many available.Marie:  I would agree with Andrea about the availability of remote work. I think that was a huge, huge eye opener for me. Another thing that I I really appreciated was having us understand some of the technology and programs that are out there. For like managing a project, so if you're doing remote work and you've got four or five team members and you're all across the world, literally you could be. How do you track it? How do you manage all the moving parts? And so there's the Trello program is the one that I used or was introduced and started to work with, and I had no idea that these programs were out there. Another one was around security, so you know VPNs. I mean, if I had heard that probably had heard it, but didn't really understand how you need to have secure networks, especially when you're in a public place and you're trying to do your remote work. And so some of those pieces of technology and programs that are out there that I was never aware of and now know more of, down to Google Docs. Right? And how do you manage all of the workflow and manage your Google Drive. So just a lot of great ways for us, either in remote work or here because I'm in,.... I still am in my office here at NDSU. But still learned a lot about how to be more effective because I still work remotely with everyone else throughout the state.Macine: So being in the last of four people has its disadvantages, because a lot of the things that have been said were similar to my thoughts. I think back to the last few years of my, what I've been doing. And the last two years, I've been totally remotely, which I really appreciate, a lot of advantages to it. It's just less stressful and better use of my time. I have a set office space now in our loft that works out really good. I can come up with our loft and do what I need to do and I'm not interrupted by other things around the home and I think I should be doing other things. Previously to that, I would work in my office part of the week and ...and then on my kitchen table, or at my kitchen table the other part of the week. And that just when i think back, that was not good. And I've learned that with this program that it is good I have the space set up. So that work day, that has been was very beneficial. Also as Marie talked about, all the different tools that we learned about in this program and how they can help us do a better job with the work we do,I think, was very beneficial. I think about the project management tools like Trello, also the password management. I've been encouraged to do that for a while, by my son, but after this course, it's like, okay, I need to do this. I need to get something set up and I have set up a password management program. So I just think learning about all those tools there are so many out there and just being introduced to them with this program and then taking the opportunity to find one that I am comfortable with. It has…. has been beneficial.Jodi: And I would agree with all of your comments. I learned so much as a participant going through the course. I, I just had no idea. 1.the extensive remote work opportunities for people and 2. the technology to help us do these things. And so it was certainly an eye opener for me, too. And you know my wish, as we've all discussed this, so what happens after we offer this course? People, North Dakotans, go through the register, they go through the course, which is one month. And I should mention too, that when you take the course, you're, you're on with students from all over the United States. And we meet, as we've stated, once a week over Zoom. And in that sharing and collaboration with people who are looking for work or know of other resources has been so interesting and I think very valuable for others that we have worked with in the state. So what's interesting is what's happened with Utah State and what had prompted this particular course is their hope to help employees and to reduce unemployment in rural areas. And I've learned that in many cases, there are several similarities between Utah and North Dakota and that it too, has very rural areas. And and they struggle with people being employed, folks who are underemployed and their initiative to support something like this and to work with employers in the state of Utah to offer remote work to professionals in rural areas has helped reduce the unemployment rate and you know for the return on investment, it has been pretty interesting. So I'm curious, so as we continue to offer this to individuals in North Dakota, um, who are one like us who perhaps weren't necessarily, I mean we were gainfully employed, we just had to learn to be better remotely, like many people. But also to help people who are not employed or in, you know, concerned about losing their work. What do you hope that North Dakota benefits or what are the gains by offering this course to North Dakotans when we decided to bring this to North Dakota. What did you hope would happen?Andrea: My hopes there that we can provide opportunities for people to stay in North Dakota and for people to come back to North Dakota. I think for a long time and you discussed this already, that people had to move somewhere for a job and now this just gives us more options for for people to be employed for a major company that isn't located in North Dakota and still raise their family here. It provides opportunities for one spouse to maybe find a job in a rural community and the other spouse to work remotely so that they can can be there. We've learned that North Dakota has some advantages, we do have a fairly extensive fiber optics system in our state, to allow people to have the resources they need to work remotely. And through the course we've we've met lots of participants, some are looking at retirement and looking at maybe something they can do part time online going forward or just learning what some of their options are, from students that are just graduating from college and really looking at ..at what opportunities are out there. So, my hopes are is that we are just able to help people make some of those connections and realize the opportunities there are in our state to work for companies in our state and maybe beyond.Marie: And then I'd like to pick up on the entrepreneurship part of this. It would be great to have individuals who take this course and see that, I can, through maybe a network or some ideas that are talked about, because one of the parts that we do in this is near the end is to goal set, to set some goals for ourselves. And if you have had an idea for a business, and now you can do it remotely, and you have the network across the state, across the US and literally of the world. Maybe it will you know, get you to the point where you're going to say, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to work on this business. I'm going to start it and see where it leads. So I think that's another great opportunity that might have been in the back of your mind, but now, maybe you've got the tools, you've got the network and the motivation to go forward.Jodi: And Macine, I know you have talked pretty extensively whenever we present to various groups about this, about the benefits of remote, remote work, could you touch on that briefly?Macine: Sure, Jodi. Remote work is a win-win for many as there's so many benefits, whether it's the individual, the businesses, our communities. Some of the things we've already talked, as far as benefits for individuals, there's higher income possibilities, less stress, there can be a better work-life balance. There's a lot of, there may be depending on your employer, schedule flexibility, that extended work age. Again, like we talked about just for the family. It's maybe a better situation. As far as businesses. There's the opportunity for employee retention. If the employees are happy they are more likely to stay and then you can retain those good employees; possibility of lower overhead, you don't need all the office space; there's some economic stimulation, some environmental sustainability. And then for the communities, there's benefits for them also, it provides job creation so that reduces the local unemployment without the expense or expensive recruiting, new businesses because we all know that's hard in small communities. Sometimes it can strengthen the tax base because people are staying in the community so you have a larger population, so then that revenue stays in town. And then  what has been mentioned, it empowers families, they're working in a virtual office allows parents to have more family time, there's flexibility. It can reduce some of the childcare issues. So it can really empower families in a lot of different ways. So there's a lot of different benefits to remote work. And it's not just one person, it's all around, it's beneficial.Jodi: Yeah those are great points Macine. Thank you for that. I think there's certainly some some eye-opening things that have come from this. At least I certainly have always felt like I needed to report somewhere to be efficient. And we we pretty much blew that theory out of the water. That you know, as Andrea said because of you know, the really efficient fiber network that we have in this state and our phone cooperatives to support that. We are able to work from anywhere, which has been, you know, a really wonderful opportunity for us so we can continue to do our work. So, thanks everyone for you sharing your experience and the information regarding the remote work certification program and what it can mean for the economy in the workforce for our state. If anybody would like more information, we still have some scholarships available for ...for the remote work certification course that we offer through Extension. And again, Macine, if you want to give that address again one more time where people can 1.) find out more information. The cost of the course is $249 but we do have some scholarships that are still available for just a small amount of people. So it makes the cost to register only $50. This is a bargain! And so, Macine, you want to share that website again.Macine; Sure. Jodi. You can go to www.ag.ndsu.edu and then you can search ‘remote work' or you could, on the end of that website, /lead/remotework. But the easiest is just going to ag.ndsu.edu. Jodi: Great. Thanks, Macine. And if if you want to reach out to any of us. You can find our email addresses off the Extension website as well, and we'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about that. The course is not offered in December or July. So will we will be kicking things off again in January and if you know of people who are struggling or looking for remote work. I would encourage them, you know, to check this out. There's more information and registration information off of our Extension website. You know what, we, we really think it's important to try to find firms, organizations, businesses that have remote work, we know they are out there. And we have an educated professional workforce out in rural areas in our state. If we could make those connections, that's really what our, our goal here is. So if you are aware of those situations, please reach out to one of us, and we'd be happy to...to make those connections. So thank you everyone. And now, I believe, Andrea has a, is going to talk to one of our participants who went through the course. So thanks everyone for your time.Music playingSusan Milender: Hi, My name is Sue Milender and I work for Barnes County Extension in Valley City. And I took the remote certification class and absolutely loved it! I took the course initially for professional development but, you know, it turned out to be so much more. Sure the format was user friendly and the content was applicable and efficient and effective regardless of if I was working in a face to face setting or if I was working remotely.  But contextually, it was spot on. So, I really think that we're in the beginning of a work revolution. Yeah, the pandemic forced us to take a really good look at how well we were working and how we were working.You know the pandemic really moved us at warp speed to pivot to a virtual work platform. And I think now employers, as well as employees, are finding that the pros are really outweighing the cons. So i've got a story for you, I've got four young children, well let me rephrase that I'm older than I want to be, but I have four kids that are in their twenties. And they look at work entirely different than I looked at work in my twenties. So, my son was contemplating two jobs and he was vacillating between the two. And his sister who is just a little bit older gave him, I think some really wise millennial advice. She said, “Alex, you can choose a job where you want to live, or you can choose where you want to work, or where you want to live, and then find a job.”  And I think that's what most young people are thinking now. They have a much better way of looking at balancing work and life together. So, I think that young people are really looking at their life, figuring out where they want to live and then plugging their passion or their job into that space. Remote work allows us to do that. It allows us to be passionate about a job or engage in a job and yet, love where we live. I think, even though I mentioned the millennials, remote work is for everybody. The millennials who are just starting out in a career, it's for those that are at a mid-level career who have built up a lot of skills and now maybe they want to freelance in a side business or a side hustle maybe, as the millennials call it. It might be for parents who want to stay home with their kids. It might be for those in the sandwich generation that are staying home to take care of an elderly parent.  Or it might be for someone like me, who is getting ready to retire. You know I'm really looking at what my retirement years will look like and what I want to do and who I want to become in that phase of my life. You know I want my retirement to be purposeful. I want to be able to maybe volunteer, but I also like the option of perhaps supplementing my income and sharing my passions and sharing my expertise. And I also love to travel. And so wouldn't it be great if I could take off and travel and yet, either volunteer or supplement my income with remote work. And I think a lot of people my age would be very very interested in that. So taking this class gave me the skills, it was very user-friendly, but it also allowed me to look ahead and see purpose in my retirement and where I was going. And it allowed me to put a plan in for these new opportunities to work remotely. So, I would highly encourage everybody, regardless of their age, regardless of their position, if they're an employer or an employee, to look into taking this course.  Andrea: Good I'm glad you enjoyed it.  Sue: I did.Andrea: What was probably like your number one take-away from the course? Sue: You know I was visiting with several people just this morning about remote work. And I thought it was very interesting that they didn't think that they could work remotely because they felt that they would be entirely distracted. And by taking this course, we not only learned tools for how you set up your office, but also learn how to manage your work day and how to manage the distractions and how to work with integrity. And I thought that was very valuable. ~Music playing ~Julie Lamborn: Hello, I'm Julie Lamborn, I'm an older than average student probably. I really super enjoyed the NDSU Utah University classes. The ROI classes I believe they were called. Remote Online learning. I learned so much more than I expected. The classes were well presented. The information was particularly course-specific. I honestly felt like I was in a college class. We had plenty of time to do assignments and co-team with people. That was great to learn how to do that, especially at this time of online learning, online remote work. Learning how to communicate and use the different programs to communicate was super helpful and I thought they did a particularly good job. I would encourage anyone, no matter your age or your job right now, whatever your job is right now, this would be a super important job, skill to learn. To communicate and to learn the different programs for online courses. So take the class. You will enjoy it. You won't be sorry.    Andrea: So what was your favorite part of the course? What was your biggest probably take-away? Julie:  My biggest takeaway was probably the size of the world. You know we all say to each other, how small the world has gotten because of the instant communication, you know the instant information you can get.  And I guess the idea of that. and then the learning of that are two different things. And so I learned how ….wow, I just learned so much. I just learned how small…..how you can connect with anybody anywhere instantly and still be really good at your job. Still really be a participant. I learned, I think I learned how big businesses are operated. In my little rural area, we tend to think of ourselves, and we are very isolated and…. But learning how big businesses ran, how much communication and interaction it takes was very eye opening for me.        Jodi: Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast, and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode, visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities, at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension, where we are extending knowledge and changing lives.

Susan Milender: Welcome to thriving on the prairie. This is a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Susan Milender, NDSU Extension family and community wellness agent and I'm located in Barnes County. And today I have the honor of visiting with Carrie Johnson, who's our NDSU specialist for family and  personal finance. So today, Carrie, we get to discuss holiday spending or maybe how not to spend during the holidays. And, you know, to start off, Carrie, I just want to say that the holidays come every year at the same time. And every year, I'm surprised that it snuck up on me.Carrie Johnson: Yeah, so we're quickly entering this holiday season of 2020 you know this year, more than others, has been a difficult year to plan for the future. So it can really almost feel like ‘The Nightmare Before Christmas'. Ideally, people would have started saving for the holidays. Shortly after the New Year, in January. But many people's circumstances changed so rapidly this year or uncertainty is really impacted people's ability to save. It does feel like the holidays came a little earlier this year than they typically do.Susan: I know Carrie, just really seriously snuck up on me and you know, I love that you said, ‘The Nightmare Before Christmas' because I can continue with that thread. By saying that I don't want to be a grinch this holiday season, even though I didn't really plan. So, you know, after all, this is the season of COVID. So who can really plan? Every day is totally different. Right?Carrie: Exactly. Susan: So, you know,  …..And I think that the holidays are stressful enough. And then we add this unpredictable nature of our economy and shutdowns, and maybe like less hours at work or less items on the store shelves, or….. gosh, delayed deliveries and not to mention that social distancing factor. So I guess I could go on and on, but, you know, Carrie I sound like a negative Nelly, sorry.Carrie: Yeah. You know, I think we could be negative about the 2020 holiday season. Or we could change our attitude and find that silver lining. Even though this year might look a little different than it has in the past, it could really be an opportunity to re-envision and reimagine what we think of the holidays. A word I've been trying to use a lot lately is pivot. So now I know not everyone likes change, family holiday traditions are a big part of this time of year. And it's really fun to dream about something that looks like one of those hallmark movies or a Pinterest picture, but we really need to be careful not to compare ourselves with others. Everyone's circumstances are different. The reality is that if we're strategic and we make a plan, we can really find ways to celebrate the holidays this year without breaking the bank.Susan Milender: Yeah, so, you know, Carrie, right now as you were talking, I was thinking about Christmas coming up and all of the holiday traditions. So, you know, if I were sitting on Santa's knee right now. I think that I would ask him for that holiday season filled with sugar plum fairies for everyone, just like you said, I love that Pinterest pictures because I had those rolling through my mind. But you know what the reality is with this year, some people are facing tough financial times. And yet others have had that good fortune of being able to continue on their regular path. So, you know, either way, we all want to be really smart with our money, and we don't want to end up with that debt hangover in January. So I'm really thankful that you're going to walk us through some tips for our finances in this holiday season.Carrie Johnson: Yeah, exactly. And there are some tips that we can all take away, like you said, whether you've had some issues with financial or some financial issues recently, or things are status quo and they're normal. Everybody can always look at some financial tips in their lives. So the first thing I really wanted to share this time of year is to set a holiday budget, which is going to be different than your typical household monthly budget. You know, how much can you realistically spend without causing future financial problems this holiday season? Will you spend the same amount that you typically do that you have in past years? Or are you gonna be spending more because you might not be traveling? Or are you going to be spending less just to save for the future a little bit and not put yourself in a financial strain? But either way, we really need to have a dollar amount set to make sure that we don't overspend.Susan: You know, Carrie, I think you just swore - I think budget should be like a four-letter word sometimes. So, you know, we're getting closer and closer to Christmas. And I'm going to just say, I have not made out a holiday budget. So where would I start?Carrie: First thing you need to do is make a list, I would say. Make a list. Check it twice. Write down absolutely all of your expenses that you typically have this time of year. Do you buy gifts, your food for meals for get-togethers, which you might not be having as much this year. Or baked goods, maybe your travel expenses, decorations - are you going to purchase more decorations. This year, more than ever, people are starting to decorate a little earlier to bring up their spirits. So maybe you are going to spend a little bit more on decorations and thinking of other things like postage and shipping. Susan: Oh boy.Carrie: So when you're listing your gifts, especially list every single person that you usually buy something for along with the amount that you plan on spending for that person. Include all people. This means small gifts, like your office gift exchange, you might not think of $15 as being a big deal, or your child's teacher's gifts. But all of these small expenses really add up fast.Susan : Yeah, you know Carrie, I'm always surprised when I think back to my Christmas and I... I look at all the big gifts, but I never think about all the stocking stuffers and little gifts that I hand out here and there, jeeze you're right they can really add up. But you know what Carrie, I love, love, love your ideas of lists and I do make a list of ideas for people. But here's where I run into a problem. And frankly, I'm not sure that you can help me with this problem because it's a discipline problem, but I'm going to hope that you have an idea. So here's what happens. I buy gifts for somebody on my list and then as it gets closer to them closer to Christmas or the holidays, I end up buying something more, and then just because I have this fear of being unfair, I buy... I feel like I have to buy for everybody else, to up the ante. So if I give five gifts to someone, I want to give five gifts to someone else, if I spend $25 on somebody. I want to spend $25 on them. So it becomes this vicious circle. So I guess I have to just stick to my list???Carrie: You know, it is difficult to stick to a budget and stick to a list sometimes, it takes commitment. You know, creating a budget is one thing. And I just do also want to want to stick this in there when you said you love lists, but budgeting, not so much. Think of a budget as a list, right? If you like to cross things off on a list. Think of your budget as a list and tracking is kind of like you're crossing things off. Just a little non holiday trick for you.Susan: I love that. That's empowering for me.Carrie: Yeah, there you go. You know, but creating that budget and tracking your spending is so important. It doesn't just have to fall under this holiday time but it's really similar to how you would do your monthly household budget. And just making that commitment. Right. You just have to say, ‘Okay, I'm done'. It is difficult. I'm not going to say it's not difficult, because I've done the same thing. I'm, I'll be completely honest with you. Or if you're in that situation where you see something, maybe you take that and replace something else that maybe you've already purchased that you could return. So you're not finding yourself in this vicious circle of spending.Susan: You know, I did also like the idea of writing it down right away. And here's another problem - that “buy with one click” is really dangerous for me. Because oftentimes I like, click away and then a box comes and then I'm like, oh yeah, now I remember ordering that so I'm telling you, every day is Christmas at the Milenders.Carrie: It is, online shopping can be extremely enticing to just click, click, click, and then you forget. Oh, that's right, I already ordered that person something. But again, you can always return things! If you've gotten yourself into a situation that you shouldn't have. It's okay to reevaluate what you've done. So you can stick to that budget because remember when you when you created that, that spending plan that that dollar amount. That was your maximum that you could spend if you go over. Where's that money coming from? So, be realistic this time of year. It is fun to give. We all love to be generous and give things to people, but we also have to be mindful and take care of ourselves this time of year too.Susan: That is so true. So you know the other area that I really think about is postage, because oftentimes, like I said, I buy online and then I can have it shipped directly to the, the person that I'm giving to, but I know that I just sent a very small like jewelry box size, gift and it was like $7. And then I thought, oh my gosh, I spent my budget for that gift, it was a birthday gift. I spent my budget for that birthday gift, but I never anticipated, adding that $7 to the gift cost.Carrie: Yep, so extra postage shipping this time of year, that needs to be budgeted in. If you're having things gift wrapped, so I know sometimes I will do that as well. I'll purchase something online and have it gift wrapped and shipped, even though the shipping is free, it might cost me $5 to have it wrapped. Which is not something I typically have budgeted for. The other thing, yeah, so making sure, like if you have Christmas cards you're mailing out. How much did those costs that postage can really add up. And then also, maybe you're doing things like a homemade gift. So you're...you're saving money there but you never budget in how much it's costing to send that homemade gift. Even though you're saving a little, you have to remember to budget what it's going to cost them to get it to that person. Because we might not be getting together this holiday season in our big groups like we typically have in the past. Looking at your budget, like I said at the beginning. What do you typically spend, but also, how's it going to be different this year? So that shipping and postage costs might be a little higher this year, than it typically has been in the past.Susan: Yeah, you know I typically send out a lot of Christmas cards, but I have to remember that I probably don't have to send to people that were on my wedding list 30 years ago, right. I mean, I could probably scale back and now you can email cards, as well. And sometimes it's just, if you think about a card as a gift, maybe? You know that might help me, as well. Yeah, you've got some great tips, now so we talked about gifts and we talked about making a budget for gifts and we talked about making a budget for postage and sticking to that list, which is really hard. But I also know traveling is going to be a little different this year. Right? And with that, we might be staying home. Eating and having fun in the kitchen. So what do you have for me on tips for food and grocery shopping.Carrie: Yeah, make sure you have your budget set for food. In my house, this is,no matter what time of year. This is my highest expense every month during every holiday season. We love eating in our house, you know, and with four teenagers, that is a quite a large expense every month. And during the holidays. So remember when you do go and buy your food, having that grocery list. And it may look different this year, if you're planning on staying home not traveling to Grandma and Grandpa's and getting ...getting fed. So, I will miss that. Or I may have done the cooking at Grandma and Grandpa's house, but I didn't have to buy the food right? It was all pre-purchased for me. I just had to send my list home. So you might have to increase that amount that you spend on food this time of year. You may be baking with the kids, a little bit more often so you might need a budget for that. But grocery stores typically are running sales this time of year on those... those ingredients. You know we just got the weekly flyers last, yesterday. Well, I don't get them - I go online and look at them every week, every Wednesday. for sales in Fargo. And, you know, this time of year, you find your traditional holiday meal ingredients, also baking supplies. And some of those things for baking, you might want to stock up on now on those ingredients that aren't going to go bad, just because you know we might start baking now and bake throughout. You know, when the kids are home from school for those few weeks, the end of December - beginning of January, just to have some activities to do together. So maybe stocking up on some of those things that are a little less expensive right now because it is the holiday season. So might be a good thing. Susan: So know that Carrie, I don't mean to interrupt, but that's a really good idea to stock up but I go back to that impulse shopping, because when I'm in the grocery store. I go in for one item and I leave with fifteen. And I just ordered online and I had it delivered and that really cut back on my impulse shopping, frankly.Carrie: YeahSusan: Just wanted to throw that in there.Carrie: I.. that's a great tip I've been doing that myself, because I love shopping for food. Again, we love to eat, and I'll see one thing and go, oh, I could make that. And then I have to go back throughout the whole store and buy 15 other ingredients to make that thing that look that sounded good to me so. Finding ways, if you know you're an impulse shopper, if finding ways to limit your trips to the store or limit the amount of time you spend browsing online shopping. Maybe deleting apps from your phone so it's not quite as easy to buy those, those things this time of year. You know, I have on my phone, I have a whole folder that says online shopping and there's probably 20 apps in there of different stores that I, I can just, you know, scroll while I'm watching TV and maybe just taking those apps off the phone will save you money and help curb your impulses.Susan: That is a good idea. I might have to take a look at that. So, now I've got my budget set, Carrie. And I have overspent on my budget. Suggestions?Carrie: It happens. This is one area that you know I talk to people and they're like, “what do I do now?” You know, you move on. You don't want to beat yourself up. Right. Sometimes we make mistakes with money and that's okay. You don't want to dwell on that and go ...You know, and bring yourself down. Acknowledge that...okay, I made a financial mistake. I need to learn from this and move on. But don't dwell on it. You know, if you can return things, do that. If not, again, move on. Don't, don't beat yourself up for, for not meeting your exact budget amount because you don't want to kind of have that dreary, sad feeling from buying. You know, buyer's remorse, it's a real thing. Do your best. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't. You know, if you if you've made a few mistakes, it's okay. You learn from them and you move forward.Susan: So we're going to start with the list and hopefully capture everybody that we're going to buy for right? Carrie: Yep.Susan: Yeah. Make a list and then we see oh gosh, my budget is probably a little bit more than I thought. Right? So, do I have your permission to like cross people off my list?Carrie: Absolutely. There's, there's nothing wrong with that, um, you have to again worry about yourself, as well. This time of year we want to be generous. A lot of you know maybe all year,during, you know, during the whole year. We want to be generous. And we do sometimes overdo it this time of year. And maybe if you're not crossing something off...someone off, maybe you're reducing the amount that you spend or the number of gifts that you give to somebody.Susan: I know you know that's a good idea because I, I feel obligated sometimes to purchase a gift for everybody that I've ever met. Or every teacher you know, my for we've got. I remember when my kids were little, we would give to the Sunday school teacher, the paras, the music teacher, the gym teacher, the principal, the school secretary... every coach. And for us adults, it might be your garbage collector, your mail person, your neighbor, your handyman, and, I don't even know, your second grade teacher. And frankly, I should be giving my UPS driver, who has quickly become my best friend during the season, a gift, but you know, I'm not sure that that's such a good idea. So I know that there will be something that comes up. Should I plan, a little extra money in my budget or will that just give me the license to spend more?Carrie: That will give you the license to spend more. Do your best to stick to your budget. But also remember holidays, it's more than just giving gifts. You know, it's more than how much we're spending on somebody. You know, this is a time to be resourceful and allow yourself not to buy a person a gift. Or if it's going to add more pressure to you, bake goods to give to everybody, you know, if you don't have the time, you don't have the resources this time this year - give yourself the okay to not to do some of these things. Breaking a holiday tradition like buying gifts can be really tough to swallow. Right? It is something we do every year. Especially if you have children there. I'll be honest, my kids expect presents every year. That's, that's really what they do. But if you need to make that tough choice for your financial future, so it's not in jeopardy. Just become a little more creative and have a conversation with your family and say this year is going to be different. Be open. Be honest. Don't scare your children into thinking that you know we're in a dire situation, but just say this year might look a little different than than years past.Susan: You know, can I say something here? That is so true, because we had a conversation with my family and I frankly thought that I was going to be opening up this can of worms. You know, changing gift giving, traditions and all, but I was really surprised, Carrie. That everyone was open to the idea of limiting gifts and frankly, I think they were relieved. I think everyone was really scared to speak up, because they were kind of scared of upsetting the status quo. So, this year with my four adult kids, four of whom are in college and broke. We decided to draw names and that's quite a change for us because we were typically, you know, everybody bought something for everybody else and then Santa came in the morning, so. We decided this year we're going to do the four gift rule, and I'm sure you've heard about that. So the four gift rule is  buying something they want, something they need, something to wear, and something to read. And we drew names. So we're really scaling back, but frankly, I thought everyone was relieved. Which surprised me.Carrie: Yeah, those are great ideas. You know, it leads me to my next tip for the holidays this year is yeah, that family conversation. Like you said people. basically seemed relieved. So if you're having, and maybe it's not because of financial difficulties, but if maybe everybody else is kind of on that same page going... “oh I was too afraid to bring it up”. So just having those open, honest conversations is so important when it comes to money. Making sure everybody's on the same page. Because if you're not, you're competing, right, you're competing for those same resources. So making sure everybody has, you know, you've talked about your, your financial goals for this holiday season and everybody's working toward those same goals, you're going to have a better outcome, too.Susan: Yeah, I thought it was kind of funny. I went to... my extended family draws names and then we have a theme for the year. So we spend like 20 to $25 and one year, we had a gift card exchange. And I thought that was so silly because I'm giving you $20 and then you're giving me back $20 and I don't know. It just seemed kind of silly to me. But this year, what we're doing is we're creating gifts around the 12 Days of Christmas. So sometimes we've done, like neck up or waist down or your favorite color. But we can get super creative and spend less money that way. So…Carrie:Yeah. Susan: Resourceful. Right?Carrie: Yeah, you know, and even if money is not an issue, you can still do other things to, for to change things. So this year in our household so again, I have four teenagers But I plan on taking them shopping, they're each getting $25 to actually spend on a gift for.. to donate. So not just teaching them about getting gifts this time of year, but also that there are people out there who are less fortunate, who may have lost a job, who may have had their hours cut. And providing them with that lesson that we need to have compassion during the holiday season and that we can help others too, and not just worry about what we're getting.Susan: And oh my gosh, I love that. I love that idea of giving them money to donate. What a great idea. So, I want to go back for a second, to online shopping, because so many people are going to be clicking this, this season. Do you have any tips for us?Carrie: Yeah, making sure you're staying safe while online shopping is going to be a big issue this year. First and foremost, make sure you're on a reputable site. If you're buying from, making sure you're buying from a secure website someone's looking at the URL and making sure there's the HTTPS, which means it's a secure site when you're checking out instead of just HTTP. That's going to help you out a little bit. Checking yourSusan: Wait, time out. Time out on that. You said HTTPS?Carrie: S. Yes. S as in SAM. Correct.Susan Milender: Well, I didn't know that. So if it's HTTP, it's a, it's not a legit site.Carrie: It is a legit site. It's not secure to enter your, like financial information. So if you ever are checking out from an online retailer, double check. Or if you're ever putting personal information in online somewhere, double check that there's the ‘s' there because that shows you that site is secure.Susan: Oh, that's really interesting. Thanks for that. Yeah definitely look. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.Carrie: Know that's perfect, I wanted to make sure you had that clarification. That's great. But also checking your bank and credit card statements closely. Or these days, you don't have to wait until your statements come out, you can check pretty much every day if you want. To make sure there's been no fraudulent charges to make sure you can catch anything that happens on there as quickly as possible so you can dispute that. And then if you do pay your balances on your credit card every month, one thing I would suggest is using a credit card this time of year. Because it doesn't give sellers direct access to the money in your bank account and credit cards have the zero liability for fraudulent purchases. So, it's just a little bit safer for you and protecting your money.Susan: Do you mean safer than a debit card? Is that what you mean?Carrie: Yes. Because if you're providing your debit card information, that's providing information to your entire bank account right. People could take money out of your account and it's a little more difficult to get money back, than it is to just dispute charge on your credit card.Susan: Hmm. You know, I know my son just disputed a charge. And just like that, they took care of it. The company was easy. And I, you know, the other thing I wanted to go back to was postage. So when we're shopping online, and we're thinking about sites that might offer free shipping, is that safe?Carrie: Yeah. Free shipping is a great perk you know, and and helps us save money. Now, during the holidays and all year right. We love free shipping. But you also need to think about the other angles with the free shipping. you know, for example, maybe you won't be able to see your family in person this year, and you want to ship something directly to them. But you have to spend a minimum sometimes to get the free shipping. So, I do see a lot of times people go, “oh, I spent this much to get free shipping”.Susan: I have done that! Carrie: Yeah. So is that free shipping really saving you any money? Or, you know, if you decide to shop for gifts in your hometown and, and buy from your small businesses to help your local economy and help your small businesses out in your community, they might not be able to offer free shipping and that might be okay. So really looking at the trade-off of this free shipping. You know, spending a few dollars on shipping could be an okay thing if you're getting a benefit out of it.Susan: When we've got so many fun North Dakota local businesses, that it's really fun to shop at those little stores or even online for, to support our local businesses. I just love that idea.Carrie: And I love….. I love sending North Dakota things home to South Dakota to see the reaction in my family.Susan Milender: You could be evil that way, couldn't you. I'm sure when they open the gift. They're like, Oh gosh! Do you get South Dakota gifts then back?Carrie: I get text messages.Susan: Well, Carrie, I just want to wrap this up by asking you if you have any more tips for me about holiday spending this year?Carrie: You know, with the holidays fast approaching, the earlier you can start the better. You know the National Retail Federation found that 42% of holiday shoppers have started earlier this year than they normally do. So planning ahead is, is key. You know, if you can spread those expenses over multiple paychecks it's going to make it a little bit easier on yourself, if you if you didn't put that money in savings at the beginning of the year. And then once your budget and your list are created, do your best to stick to it - it's really tempting to buy something just because it's on sale. I get it. Retailers and marketers are really smart, so they know how to get us to spend money. But those impulse purchases can really impact your family finances over the next several months and maybe even years, depending on how much you spendSusan: Yeah, you know, I am going to heed your warning. I'm going to really stick to my list because I know it's not only good for my budget, but frankly, it's also good for my stress levels. Right, sticking to my budget, and I, I am going to try to start shopping early because I've also heard that deliveries might get delayed. And here's, here's what I envision happening is my delivery might get delayed and then I panic and then I spend way more money because I didn't plan ahead. So, I think that I'm going to heed all your warrant, all your advice about sticking to my budget, making a list, not impulse shopping, and planning ahead. And, and then also communicating and being open to changes this holiday season. And frankly, Carrie, sometimes I just needed me to hear that I have permission to say no. You know, I have permission to say no to maybe those extra things in my budget or extra things in my, in my schedule that can really make me forget about the fundamental reason for this celebratory season. So it comes down to people matter and not things. So, Carrie, I want to really thank you for empowering me to look at the season a little differently. And I'm going to take my Grinch hat off and I'm going to cherish the opportunity to refocus this year on holiday traditions. So with that, I want to thank everyone for listening to Thriving on the Prairie and to subscribe to the podcast and access the full transcript, as well as resource links from this episode. visit www.ag or AG. ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie and you can find more resources for families and communities at this website www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension. Extending knowledge, changing lives.

Jan Stankiewicz and Nikki Johnson from NDSU Extension talk about Type 2 diabetes, how to reduce the risk of getting it, and how the Diabetes Prevention program can help.Resources Find out more about the Diabetes Prevention Program Connect to a community health class or program through the ND Community Clinical Collaborative TranscriptJan Stankiewicz: Welcome to Thriving on the Prairie a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers, shakers, and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jan Stankiewicz, community health and nutrition specialist, and I with my colleague and friend, Nikki Johnson also a community health and nutrition specialist. Nicki is here to lead us in a conversation about the diabetes prevention program. A national program that is truly changing people's lives. Nikki, it's so nice to have you here today.Nikki Johnson: Thanks for having me, Jan.  Jan: Yeah. Great. So we're just going to again be talking a little bit about, umm, diabetes in North Dakota and something that's called pre-diabetes. And then a program we have that Extension offers that you, kind of, are in charge of, called the diabetes prevention program. So if you just want to kind of, like, open up a little bit about what diabetes is, the current state of diabetes in North Dakota, or maybe even the nation. So, what kind of information do you have to kind of start us off with?Nikki: Sure, so maybe let's just start off thinking nationally. So in the U.S. right now there are over 34 million adults with diabetes. On a more localized level, there's over 54,000 North Dakotan adults that have diabetes. Jan: 54,000. Okay. Nikki: 54,000. And if you put it into perspective, that's about 1 in 10 people. So when you think about going to the grocery store and you know standing in the produce aisle or in the produce section there, you know 1 in 10 people that you are being surrounded by likely has type 2 diabetes. Jan: And then I guess that's something to clarify it's Type 2 Diabetes right, Nikki?Nikki: Yes. Type 2 diabetes and that's going to be a little bit different than type 1 diabetes. Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disorder, nothing you can do about developing type 1 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes on the other hand has some preventable factors to it and it's more linked to lifestyle rather than genetics.Jan: Yeah and that's where the term chronic disease comes in, right?Nikki: Yes. So, type 2 diabetes is considered one of those chronic diseases. It's longer term. It has some adverse health effects if you're not managing it or you're not controlling it. And like I said, it is something that is preventable.Jan: Yeah, so when we're talking about type 2 diabetes what does that mean? So we've got a large amount of people in North Dakota with type 2 diabetes. What does that mean for those individuals, and then what does that mean for, you know, community members or the state? Why are we concerned about those kinds of things?Nikki: You know, it's going to be different for every individual, of course. Everybody's journey with any chronic condition is going to look a little bit different but there's a couple common pieces. So, an individual with type 2 diabetes is going to have to be very diligent about their health. Type 2 diabetes is categorized as having blood glucose are blood sugar levels that are outside of the normal range. And if you're not watching those your body can experience some very adverse health effects, right? And so they have to be very concerned. So that means they're going to have to go to the doctor more frequently. They're probably going to have to have a team of physicians that they're going to need to work with or of healthcare providers. So thinking they'll have to work with a dietitian. They need to get their eyes checked regularly. They need to have their feet checked. They're going to need to talk to their regular family care physician just to make sure that their blood levels are where they need to be. And that's going to mean that not only higher medical cost for them, but it's also going to affect their employers and potentially family members and things like that. Just thinking about the amount of days you have to be out of work, or maybe there's days that your blood sugar you just can't get it under control and say you have to miss because you're not feeling well. And if you're not feeling well you know who's taking care of you? You might need that support person in your life to help you out. So there are a lot of implications to developing type 2 diabetes. And maybe i'll go back just to the money piece for a second there. You know nationally, we spend over $327 billion on diabetes. Jan: And billion with a B? Nikki: Billion with a B. $327 billion. And that's not all direct medical costs. A good chunk of it is medical cost. I think a person spends 2.3 times more money annually if they have diabetes versus if they do not have diabetes.Jan: Okay.Nikki: And that's on a personal level, but you have to think about all those other medical costs and implications for that for your employer or health insurance companies, the healthcare system and things like that. And then part of that is going to be those indirect costs. So thinking about absenteeism from work or presenteeism for that matter. Jan: Umm hmm. Yeah. So the impacts kind of build upon each other and then you feel them further and further down the line, yeah. So our healthcare system is set up in a decent way to treat these kinds of things. So there's medications that folks can get on. But again taking a step back, looking at it, you know, more from a preventative side. So that's where pre-diabetes comes in right?Nikki: Yes. So prediabetes, I would say, is this newer….newer term. And maybe I use that in quotations. But it's one of those newer terms and it's really just stating that people are getting close to having type 2 diabetes. They've got these elevated blood sugar levels but they're not quite to the point of type 2 diabetes. And it's this stage in a person's life where you can make some lifestyle modifications and actually prevent developing type 2 diabetes. So you can prevent eventually getting that chronic condition.Jan: Yeah that is really something, especially going back to, you know, thinking about the numbers of people who are impacted by type 2 diabetes and the dollars that are associated with it. So if there's things that we can do to stop that from happening, yeah I think that would really peak some people's interest and I, yeah, I just find it it's so interesting that you know when the terms come up and I can...you know when you said…. you had your air quotes and we could hear it in your voice.Nikki: LaughingJan: When we, even if we can't see it. So yeah, so how does somebody know if they have prediabetes? Nikki: And that's the tricky part. So, prediabetes is not something that you're just going to all the sudden feel all of these symptoms. You know if you've got... you got a cold or you're running a fever you can…. you can feel those... those symptoms, right? Prediabetes, you're not going to... you're not going to notice those. The way you're going to be able to tell is really by going to see your healthcare professional and getting your blood glucose levels checked. But there are certain risk factors that you might be able to check off, that would maybe push you to go see a healthcare professional to get tested. You do need to have a blood glucose test to know whether or not you're not you have pre-diabetes.Jan: Okay, and so then that's usually like just one of those finger-prick things right and then you get the number?Nikki: It depends on. There's a couple different test sometimes it's a finger prick test, sometimes it's a full blood draw.Jan: Okay. Nikki:  But yes it does... it does include some blood.Jan: Okay. AlrightNikki: (Laugh)Jan:  So, so what are some of these risk factors? So if I...I'm hearing about prediabetes, I'm wondering if I might be at risk for something like that, what can I do or what are some of the risk factors?Nikki: Some of the risk factors, so we've got a whole list of them. Some are going to be modifiable risk factors. Some of them we just simply can't do anything about, they're just part of...of our genetics. Or the way life is. So age is going to be a risk factor.Jan: Okay.Nikki: The older we get the more likely it is that we might develop type 2 diabetes. so it's more likely that we would eventually have prediabetes.  So over the age of 45, your risk starts going up. Jan: Okay.Nikki: Family history is going to be another one and again something you're... you're not going to be able to change as well as your health background. So for example, if you've got a parent or sibling that had Type 2 diabetes, you would be at higher risk for developing type 2 diabetes or prediabetes. Same if you had gestational diabetes while pregnant or if you have polycystic ovary syndrome. It also places you at a greater risk.Jan: Okay.Nikki: Couple other things, high blood pressure, high cholesterol or high triglycerides are going to put you at greater risk. Your race, so some of our races puts us at a greater risk, just genetically. So if you are American Indian, African American, Latino, or Asian-American you're at greater risk for developing type 2 diabetes. And then here's where the modifiable risk factors come...come in.Jan: Yeah so the things that we maybe can do something about. Nikki: Exactly. Those little pieces that we might be able to change. Weight and physical inactivity. Jan: Okay.Nikki: So if we're overweight, um, and depending on how overweight you are or being physically inactive, can increase your risk for developing type 2 diabetes. So usually what I encourage people to do if they're curious whether or not they have prediabetes and they're just not sure. Do I go see my physician? I don't really know? We have a really quick risk test that we encourage people to take. It's about seven questions long. Takes a maximum of I would say thirty seconds to complete. But within that thirty seconds, you're going to know whether or not you would be considered high risk or not. And then I would say you know what that you hit that high risk on our risk test, schedule an appointment with your physician or your family practitioner and just get a blood test scheduled. It's pretty quick, fairly painless and then you'll know right then and there if you're at risk for developing type 2 diabetes or not.Jan: Yeah that risk test sounds pretty handy and it's just like yes or no questions right?Nikki: Exactly. Yeah it's yes or no questions, like I said, it's 7 questions long. Really it maybe takes thirty seconds total.Jan: Yeah and on your website that we'll have a link to in the show notes we can actually put the link in for that risk test, so it will be easier for people to find even. So…Nikki: Perfect. Jan: Yeah so we've talked a little bit about diabetes, we've got some risk factors for prediabetes. So then let's move into actually what we're here to talk about today, the Diabetes Prevention Program. So it's something that is across the nation right? Not just North Dakota.  Nikki: Right. So it's the National Diabetes Prevention Program and it is a…..I always chuckle when I have to talk about this, a lifestyle change program. And people are like, what!? And basically what it's saying is that this isn't some quick fix. It is going to take time but we want the changes that individuals are making to be sustainable and to last the duration of their life. Because really, they're not only going to help to lower the risk for developing type 2 diabetes but it's going to lower their risk for a lot of other chronic conditions as well.  Which is, I think, really exciting. Maybe you're going in for a one sole purpose but it's going to be tenfold what you're coming out with. Jan: Yeah because some of those risk factors, you know, for diabetes, are very similar to some risk factors for developing certain types of cancer or heart disease and other thingsNikki. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, when you look at it, a couple of those risk factors, you know, high cholesterol and high blood pressure. When you think about heart health, that's...those are...those are heart health problems. So if you're going into a program and it's going to help to lower those risk factors as well, I mean, it's exciting that it can do, this program really is helpful for more than just the prevention of diabetes. Jan: Umm hmm, yeah. Okay, so lifestyle change programNikki: Yes.Jan: So what does that entail? If somebody's interested in checking out DPP, what are they going to see? What are they going to find and what can they expect?Nikki: What they can expect, so the scariest part about this program, and its….okay...its the scariest part but it's also probably the most beneficial piece. It is a year-long program and when I tell people it's a yearlong program their eyes get really big and their like, oh my gosh I don't wanna…..I'm signing up for a whole year of my life, right? (Laughing) but the program is really designed to be slow baby steps. So change takes time. Change is scary. And when we take off too much at one time, people tend to not be successful. They tend to get overwhelmed and want to quit and that is the exact opposite of what this program is. We take small baby steps introduce small changes and little things that they can do week after week to make lifestyle changes that fit their lifestyle. So it's a very individualized program.Jan: That's so cool because there are, there's actual, like research associated with these like quick fix programs where they go hard for like 3 months or 6 months, they could see some amazing results and it's mostly like weight loss or behavior change like working out or smoking cessation and those kinds of things. And they have really great results in those 3 to 6 months. But then in the follow-up, they find that almost everybody is either back to their starting point or even a little bit worse off. Right?Nikki: Exactly. And we do not want to see that in this program. So it's really designed to take things slowly, to make changes manageable and again to make them sustainable. So that you know if you're making a change this week, it's something that you're going to be able to live with one year from now, five years from now, 20 years from now. Jan: Umm hmmm. Yeah, so then I'm assuming with the numbers that you've talked about before that it's like what so when somebody is signed up in a DPP class are they with and around other people? Is it an individual kind of a thing?Nikki: Great question. So it is meant to be a group class. Group sizes range from anywhere, I would say, between 6 and 20, just depends on. But what is great about that is you have a trained lifestyle coach or two that's kind of guiding you through the... through the program itself but then you got this wonderful support system around you with people who are going through the same or a similar journey. You know everyone's journey is a little bit different, but they're coming in joining the program with a lot of the same motivations that you probably are joining for. And I should point out so the program itself, we do focus around a couple main goals. Weight loss is one of them. Moderate weight loss, so like, 5 to 7%. And to put that into perspective, if you were a 200 pound individual, we're asking that you would try to lose 10 pounds. So it's not this really scary number I don't think it's a very moderate, easy to work towards number. Now that's not to say that's all you're allowed to lose. If you wanted to lose more you definitely could, but that's our jumping-off point. We look for that weight loss as well as incorporation of physical activity. So we're hoping to increase people's movement throughout the duration of the year. And again all of this happens really gradually it's not something we ask people to start making all of these changes at once. We do things little by little. And then in addition to that, we don't just go through those two pieces we really want to make sure everybody has the tools to be successful. So we go through, you know, stress reduction and problem-solving and going through all of the social and psychological issues that might come up when you're in... in a year right? You know, how do you handle the holidays? What do you do around birthdays? Or if you're having a really awful day at work are there certain triggers that cause you to be inactive or to choose certain foods. So we go through a lot of different pieces to make sure that people are really set up for success when their year with us is done. Jan: Yeah that's actually, you know, when you put it that way. You can see a lot of benefit for it, something lasting an entire year. You know, so you can actually go through the seasons of life, while you're in the program so you can apply things directly to from what you're learning. So I think that's actually pretty cool when you think of it like that. Nikki: It's such a fun program. That's the other thing too. I make it sound really formal but it's a really fun class too.  We've been teaching it in North Dakota, I would say for about seven years or so getting pretty close to 8, and participants absolutely love their year with us.  Like I said it sounds scary right away and people are like, oh my gosh do I really want to sign up for an entire year? But by the time the year ends people are wanting more. They're not….they don't necessarily want to leave the group that they've been apart of the last year of their life. And actually a lot of them still end up staying connected with their coaches and with the participants that they've gone through the program with.Jan: Yeah I can definitely see that bonding and then cohesion of those groups, kind of taking hold and and being one of the helpful factors and you know success,  individual success on whatever terms that they're kind of working towards. So that... that's kind of cool to see. So then  with some changes that we've had in the last several months across the nation, DPP is typically in person right so then you can build relationship and bond with people. So tell us a little bit about what,  like how different is DPP now than it was before the pandemic?Nikki: You know, before the pandemic, so okay, so you mentioned that most of our classes were happening in person. I think, in part it's just because we weren't necessarily ready to start things online. Not to say that we hadn't thought about it. It had been a part of our thought process I would definitely save for quite some time and and there were plenty of organizations across the nation who are offering DPP via distance or with an online platform of some sort. And I guess since the pandemic we transitioned to distance learning and it has still gone phenomenally. Our participants transitioned really really well and I have to say I got to sit in on a lot of classes that I wouldn't have normally just because I got to be that technical person that was running our Zoom sessions. But people really appreciated that additional connection that they were able to have via Zoom or via our online classes. They still got to see their classmates even if it was via the screen. They still got to, you know, we still got to do a lot of the same things you would do in a face-to-face class. So really right now, extension, as well as a good majority of our partner agencies are still going to be running their classes via distance. Once things change up again we will be offering in person as well. But we do plan on offering both options moving forward. So for some people it's just easier to join on their computer and hop online to….to take a class. We're going to have that option. Once things open up... open up and are safe enough we're going to have those in person classes. And then we're actually hoping to add a third option here in the coming... coming months. We'll have something called the HALT program. Where it's an online class that you can basically just check in whenever works out for your schedule. Which is really cool. So we're going to have three different options for people out there to check out and choose which fit is the right fit for them.Jan: Yeah, that's such a great thing for extension to be able to offer that. And yeah, so you're right, and I'm even thinking like in the winters in rural North Dakota how nice would it be, you know, if your class is at a 7 p.m. on a Thursday night and it's storming you can still get to class if it's held virtually or online without having to cancel or to, you know, brave the roads and head in to class. So I think that's so great to be able to partner with a lot of other people across the state who again we might not have had the option or or this soon might not have the option this soon I suppose.Nikki: Exactly. No, and you make a great point about the North Dakota winters are not exactly (laugh) always easy to navigate. So it's... it's great that we're going to have that option.Jean. Yeah. Very cool. Okay so if...if somebody's heard this information they're a little bit interested, what's the like... what's the first next step so you mentioned maybe a risk test but how does somebody sign up for a class or find out about things? Nikki: Sure, so like you said, the risk test is probably the number one thing that I would encourage people to do first. So check out the risk test and then I would say if you're interested in the class you want to sign out there's a couple different ways you can go about that. The first is going to be ndc3.org and I know Jan, I think you said you were going to include that link for people to be able to click on. Jan: Absolutely. Nikki: But that is a wonderful website that includes a variety of what we call evidence-based programs. Basically saying like, hey, these programs are successful. There has been research done around them saying like this is this is a positive program and you know, people can take it or should take it we encourage you to do so. We've got a variety of evidence-based programs on NDC3, including the diabetes prevention program. And all you have to do is go to NDC3.org  in the toolbar on at the top, type in diabetes prevention program or click that button and it will give you all of the offerings for the diabetes prevention program from across the state. So I mentioned extension teaches the classes but there are many partner agencies across the state that are also offering the program. I would say the second way, if they weren't sure about going to NDC3.org, I would just say to reach out to me. I would be happy to connect them with any lifestyle coach or program across the state. Jan: All right, great. Thanks Nikki, that's really helpful information and then to I guess the clarify maybe one thing. Do you need to have a doctor's referral like you have to go to the doctor and then schedule a class or how does that work?Nikki: Great question. So no, you do not need a doctor's referral in order to join the class. If you decided you just wanted to take the risk test, and yes you were a high-risk. We would absolutely welcome you into any diabetes prevention class.  Jan: Yeah, great. I think, yeah, that NDC3.org will have a lot of information for people and then yeah of course we'll link everything in the show notes so be sure to check that out to. All right Nikki, thanks so much for spending time with me today. This information is so important and impactful and it makes a difference for so many of us here in North Dakota. So truly I appreciate your time today.Nikki: Thanks for having me.Jan: Yeah. Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie.  You can find more resources for families and communities at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension, extending knowledge, changing lives.

Deanna Sand, co-owner of Prairie Soul Meats, talks starting a value-added agriculture business, balancing family and business, and the lessons she's learned as a woman entrepreneur.TranscriptJodi Bruns: Welcome to “Thriving on the Prairie,” a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference-makers to engage in lifelong learning. Hi, I'm Jodi Bruns, leadership and civic engagement specialist with NDSU Extension. Today, I will be visiting with Deanna Sand from Prairie Soul Meats. Deanna took a leap of faith and left her career and city paycheck to be an entrepreneur in a livestock industry.Jodi: Alright, so thanks for joining us today for the NDSU Extension podcast. So we're kicking off this inaugural podcast in celebration of women's entrepreneurship week and our guest today is Deanna Sand. And Deanna is from the Ashley area, and I'll have her introduce herself. Good morning, Deanna.Deanna Sand: Thanks for having me. Well, I ranch west of Forbes in between Ellendale and Ashley, so we have every address and phone number possible. So we ranch in the hills, and we raise grass-fed beef, all home-raised. It's lived here it's whole life. We have also sheep and pigs, and we have a business called Prairie Soul Meats where we direct-market our beef.Jodi: So you guys have been, you ranch with your husband Cody, and I know that your three kids...here's a disclaimer, Deanna and I have known each other I would say most of our lives through 4-H, and then our kids were in school together. So, I've watched you on this journey here. And when, when you quit your job, I thought you were a brave soul. So how did you decide to take that leap of faith to quit your job and really embrace this entrepreneurship venture?Deanna: We had taken an holistic management class in 2011, so we kind of changed over from conventional ranching, really doing everything the hard way, to really learn about more holistic and different grazing. So when we did that there was a grant available for fencing and water infrastructure. And anybody who knows my husband knows he's like  all in on everything so instead of putting up like one cross fence we did like seven miles of pipeline and 27 water tanks and 65 primitive pastures. And so it was a lot of work and a lot of things. So he asked me, he's like would you consider quitting your job and I'm like No… (laugh) ...Pretty scary.Jodi: Yeah, right.Deanna:  Yeah so I quit my job and then that changed into just grazing different and doing more things and then 5 or 7 years later all the sudden we have a grass-fed beef business. Jodi: Well that's exciting. You had quite a commute everyday and you know I did that too, and fought bad weather and roads. And you know I don't miss that but do you miss the interaction with people every day, and going to work or any regrets with that?Deanna: Not anymore (laugh) Jodi: Yeah good. That's good. Deanna : I worked for an optometrist for twenty years, and that's what I went to school for. I was an optometric assistant. So I drove an hour one way every day for roughly twenty years. I miss the patients but then I get to run into them at farmers markets and things like that. And it's funny... when I call down to work it's still my voice on the answering machine. So it's like I'm still there and never left. Jodi: Nice.Deanna: 6 years of not working and when I quit, all three of the kids were still at home. Our oldest was probably a junior….a sophomore or junior, so it was fun to be able to be around for that chaos and not have to drive.Jodi:  You know thinking about you know what's the best part about being an entrepreneur and maybe the worst part? Is there a worst part? Or is everyday like ``Oh, I'm so glad we did this?”Deanna: Well it is super fun once we've gotten into the meat business. It's really such a  blessing to be able to provide a good nutritional product to people who are looking for it. There's people who have issues like fibromyalgia and some other kind of internal issues and they literally cannot eat beef anymore and whether it's for whatever reason they can eat our beef.  We don't use any chemicals on the land or the cattle. And they're always on grass so there's just something about it that's more natural and it doesn't bother them. So it's fun when you find those people who you're really helping and and that's a blessing.  The entrepreneur part I mean it's sure fun when you go to work and then somebody gives you a paycheck all the time no matter what you do…. you show up and then you get a paycheck.Jodi: Yeah there's that. (laughs)Deanna: So this is different for sure. And then when COVID hit that was great and horrifying at the same time. We had already had some beef processed and in the freezer, planning ahead for farmers market. And then we had got approved to go to Fargo farmers market and at the same time we had butchered it... set up luckily hoping we could get in there. But then COVID hit and everything is just in chaos and you can't get in. So we're fortunate we still have stuff set up for next year. But then do you go bigger and find a different bigger plant? Do you stay where you are? Do you just hope it's fine? So yeah, all that stuff. It's a lot of moving parts.  Jodi: So your business has expanded. I mean when you when you first started this, I mean you now you're like you said, you mentioned the Red River Farmers Market and I saw you there this weekend. And I was shocked at how busy... you know...  people were just asking you... it was so many questions and I could hear people asking you about your ranch and about the beef and the process and so what is,  what are some of the things people ask you? What do they want to know about your ranch or your process?Deanna: They want to know how it's raised. If it's always ours or if it comes from somewhere else. So people usually want to know that. You know it's funny when you get in an urban setting, like Fargo. There's so many people that just if you're at the market, they just assume that what you say is what it is and they expect it to be a certain caliber. You know they expected it's not going to be the same stuff they're getting from a random grocery store. There's some people very happy to have us there which is really pretty cool like they're seeking us out and that's pretty neat Jodi: Well I think part of that is the reputation you've built. And you and Cody have been very approachable. What would you say is your business philosophy?Deanna: I don't know if we have one. Maybe that's a problem. Maybe we should get one of those.  Jodi: (Laughs)Deanna:I think just really being pretty transparent and really welcoming to whatever. The first week we were at the market, there was a young girl in her twenties and her and her mom, I think were there, and we were super busy so I didn't actually get to meet her that day and Cody did. She emailed a day later and said, “It was great. It was amazing. Can we come tour your place?” And they came just a couple weeks ago for like an all-day tour. And it was you know... they wanted to see what we do, what the place looks like, how they're raised? You know all kinds of food questions and that is like so fun. That's the best part. Jodi: That's interesting and generous of you to open up your home and your ranch to an outsider like that.  Deanna: We've done a lot of tours in the past on a different, bigger scale for different reasons. More for the soil health and grass and grazing. But now it's kind of coming full circle into the food and that's really fun. Jodi: What would you say are the lessons learned over the few years you've been doing this?Deanna: I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know if there's any actual lessons... just you learn something new everyday and then you just keep going. I mean there's always a little roadblocks or a little changes or. Jodi: So you and Cody seem to balance each other out. Whatever his strong suit is, you seem to take the other side of that. And so what would be some, you know, maybe advice for other women entrepreneurs?  Maybe their business partners with a spouse or a friend or maybe they're seeking out a business opportunity on their own. Any nuggets of advice for other women entrepreneurs or wannabes?Deanna: Well I'm much more conservative in the “wait and let's take it slow” and he's like “Yep we're doing it all now.” And so that's the good thing because I probably wouldn't have my own business for sure because it's not really my personality so we just, we do balance each other out and good partners in that where he's all in and doing everything and then I'll figure out how it has to get done. You know the regulations and working with those departments in the licensing and the “this-and-the-that” and the state line deal that's we only live a mile and a half from South Dakota so it's different licenses to sell down there and different things for here and sales tax and no sales tax, you know what's all that stuff that he wants zero to do with so then I just get to figure it out.Jodi: Well that's a good balance. That's a really good balance. How has your industry changed since you and Cody started this? Your family? What have you seen as changes? I know that regulations has been a struggle  for many many people in local foods but it seems quite popular but yet some of the regulation issues have been a struggle I know. So what's changed?Deanna: Well the way that we ranch would be less regulation maybe. I don't know how to word this so it comes out right. but when we were selling into the Sale Barn  in the conventional market. You're selling an animal much younger. So when you change to a grass-fed like we are, kind of low input grass-fed, that they take a lot longer to grow. So we're butchering things about 28 to 30 months of age. So instead of selling them that first year we hold them over another year. And if we don't have a market for those, they're worth way less in the conventional market because they've already grown and there isn't money to make on the back-end. So I think for us, it's planning ahead 2 or 3 years ahead of time and making sure that, that we have what we need. Because if we aren't able to direct-market it or market it through a grass-fed place then we're kinda screwed and then you're going backwards. So I don't know, for us it's less regulation maybe and more just keep going forward and keep planning. Jodi:So, I'm curious talking to other entrepreneurs and people seeking out new opportunities. How has social media changed your business? Deanna: I'm so bad at social media. It can probably do a lot of amazing things for my business. And that's one thing I have to get a lot better at. Having a website, that was huge. That's the hugest thing. (Hugest, I don't even think that is a word.) That is the best thing that I finally got done and that took forever to put that together. And have a face of your business and it gives you credibility and it gives…. You know people don't have time to come and talk to you everywhere or visit at the market or come to a market….but. There's a website called Eatwild.com and I think they're out of Oregon. And they have people through every state that you know if you're really doing what you say you're doing, they check on you and and if everything is on the up-and-up, you can be a part of Eat Wild. It's funny that people that we find or that will find us from Eat Wild and some of those places but if you don't have a website for them to go to they might not find you. I do less on social media and I need to do a lot more.Jodi: Well the world is certainly a small place and they say right.Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. I finally got on Instagram. And I had commented on somebody's random something, and a girl, who her husband, I think, he's a professor in Vermilion, she found me through Instagram, and ordered beef. And he's just reordered more. And you know she moves from a different state and our product is what they always had. So it was kind of neat a connection.  Jodi: Yeah, you never know. So, if anybody's just joined us, so we are with Deanna Sand today with Prairie Soul Meats. She's talking about her journey from being an optometrist assistant to joining her husband in their…. started off as beef industry raising cattle right.Deanna: YepJodi:  And then going to purely grass-fed holistic grazing system. And your interview that you did, last Friday, on First Friday's at B, you had mentioned being Audubon certified is that, is that correct what I'm certified.  So, tell me about that certification what that means to your business? Deanna: Um for us it's kind of a differentiating factor. There's a lot of people who do what we do you know what that might be similar. The audubon certification... they, they have a third-party audit that comes out and verifies what you do. And if what you say you do is accurate and correct. We have a magical piece of paper that says we do that. Some of the things that you can't do, you can't hay until after July fifteenth because of nesting bird habitat.  No chemicals. is everything we already did but really they're they're trying to focus on bird habitat for for nesting grassland birds. So a lot of the birds that are on our ranch and nest here, actually over-winter in Mexico. And so but a lot of the the habitat has been lost to conversion with farming and urban populations and that kind of thing. They're trying to focus on getting people to understand that we need cattle on the land grazing to have the bird habitat. To have the beef. you know to have everything full circle. So it's a it's a fairly new program. They've been out probably three years or so. They're just really trying to get their name out there and help build businesses like ours.Jodi:  I thought some of the conversation was interesting... to about, how does dealing with change and how working with, even neighbors, talking about and accepting the way of how you how you are doing business now. And so you talked a little bit about this the other day the other day last week. How do you deal with some of the negativity or even misunderstanding in your industry? Have you faced some of that?Deanna: Not really. No. I mean it's probably more about us but not to us, maybe. And maybe everybody else does similar things to what we do but I think we're a little bit different and unique in way that we, that we do things kind of non-conventional. But there's less of a need for outside information I guess. Maybe people talk about us more than we go to talk to other people like us. And we're mentors for the North Dakota Grazing Lands Coalition. So we do get calls from people who are like “Hey, how do I start this? How do I do this?” You know so so it's kind of fun people know that we do something a little different and unique. It's a long process to change. It's not magic. And it's not overnight.Jodi: Well that's a great thing that you're willing to give back and be a mentor to someone else who is willing to do this. I'm sure there are plenty of people and also in other industries is sometimes it's fine, it's hard to find that mentorship. Or even someone to give you some advice. So that's…. that's awesome. So do you have a vision for let's say five years down the road for Prairie Soul Meats? Or a dream?Deanna: Ahhh…. I don't know. I guess you'd have to ask Cody that. I'm just along for the ride.Jodi: (laugh) C'mon I know better than that. Deanna: Just continue direct-market. It's been really fun to get into Fargo, you know, more urban. It would be fun at some point to perhaps shift our website over to more of an order and drop, ship type thing. You know that would be something in the future. But then you have to have inventory on hand and all that kind of stuff. So I think just keep going and hopefully growing and…just you have to get out there more I guess. I don't know that I see us doing a lot more retail type things. We sell retail at one store in Aberdeen, South Dakota... then to keep inventory and all that stuff. I don't know.  I would like to keep it very beneficial for everyone and yet simple for us. I don't know if that works together or not.Jodi: (Laughs) That's a good business model right there. (Laughs)  I think that's good. It's interesting the journey you've been on. And I think just being available to other people. You've been so open and willing to share information and infield questions and being helpful to others who are looking at this kind of business. So I'll leave you with final words. Any other comments you'd like to leave for any women thinking about venturing out and taking a risk and being entrepreneurs?Deanna: Well it's fun and intriguing and something to learn. And it's a trickle down, too. There are several people who mentored us to get us to where we are. So I... I think just go find people who can help you and answer questions. Obviously you've, I've texted you more than once.  We're selling, you know, meat and beef throughout the state that have helped us a bunch.Jodi: Yeah. That's good advice. Alright Deanna, thanks for your time today. Again we just spent some time with Deanna Sand from Prairie Soul Meats and again, it's we're celebrating women's entrepreneurship week and hope you enjoyed today's podcast.Jodi: Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode visit www.ag.ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie. You can find more resources for families and communities at ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension, where we are extending knowledge and changing lives.