Podcast appearances and mentions of susan well

Join Susan on our podcast today as she shares her journey to a beautifully empowering CBA3C! Susan had three C-sections that didn't have anything to do with her body. They just happened to be circumstantial. All three of her births had been traumatic emotionally and did not go how she wanted at all. As far as making decisions for herself and doing what she really wanted to do, that was not present. But with her fourth baby, Susan had a lot of firsts. It was the first time that she was really able to voice what she wanted. She was able to make decisions out of peace and being educated instead of making decisions out of fear and being told what to do. That was the first truly empowering step in her process.Our mission at The VBAC Link is to make all births after difficult Cesareans better, and Susan's episode shows exactly that. Coterie Diaper Products, Code VBAC20 for 20% Discount How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is Megan, and I am joining you with my friend Susan. Hello, Susan. How are you?Susan: Hi Meagan. I'm doing great. How are you doing?Meagan: I am so great. You are from South Carolina, and at the time we're recording, even though this is now going to be in February, South Carolina has had crazy weather. How has everything been with you guys?Susan: Everything has been great. We're actually extremely blessed with the area that we are in. Initially, I thought it was something to talk about because I had a tree fall in the back of my house, but once I saw everything else going on in the area and just seeing the devastation that people had gone through, we are incredibly blessed with, the minimal damage with it just being a tree.Meagan: And this was Hurricane Helene?Susan: Hurricane Helene. Yeah. So all of our neighbors are pretty rough right now, so keep them in your prayers and help out where you can.Meagan: Seriously? Oh, we will be. We're actually recording right now in October, and today is the day that Florida is scheduled to be hit with another really crazy hurricane. So, yes.Susan: I've been thinking of Florida non-stop too.Meagan: Seriously, if you guys are listening, even though this is in February, oh my goodness, I hope all is well and everybody is okay.We do have our Review of the Week, so I definitely want to get into that before you share your four CBAC stories. We have people question, "Why is it called The VBAC Link, but then you share CBAC stories?" But I think the solid straight answer is because not every birth ends in a vaginal birth, and not everything always goes as planned. And you know what? Also, sometimes VBAC isn't desired, and CBAC is something that we don't want to forget about. In fact, if you didn't know, we have a CBAC Link Community. We have The VBAC Link Community on Facebook, and we also have a CBAC Link Community which is just the most amazing group as well. It's actually run by Paige, our transcriber, who I absolutely adore and just had her fourth Cesarean, which was a Maternal Assisted Cesarean. I still can't even believe all of those things happened. It's so amazing. But you guys, if you are looking for a CBAC support group, go to The CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and we'll make sure you get in. We have a review. It is by Jamie Poor. It says, "The absolute best." Thank you. That is so sweet. It says, "After having a scheduled C-section in 2016 for my son being breech, he flipped between 38 and 39 weeks, so he came as quite as a shock. I knew I wanted to VBAC for my next birth. Fast forward to 2019, my second pregnancy with our daughter, I found your podcast and obsessively listened to every single episode. It motivated me and educated me leading up to my due date. It even made me look forward to my long commutes to work. I hired a doula. I drank red raspberry leaf tea, ate the dates, did the Spinning Babies and really did all the things. And guess what? With the help and the education and advice provided on this podcast, I got my VBAC. I learned how to ask for what I wanted and advocate for myself with my doctor and when my body cooperated and went into labor, I felt prepared. My daughter was born in January 25, 2020, and I have to say her labor, delivery, and birth was the most healing, empowering experience of my life. Thank you, ladies, for providing this podcast for all women preparing for birth." Thank you so much, Jamie Poor, for your review, and congratulations on your amazing, empowering birth experience.Women of Strength, no matter how you birth, we want you to have a better experience. That is our goal here at The VBAC link to make birth after Cesarean better. A lot of first Cesareans are unexpected, undesired, unplanned, and do sometimes bring trauma. That doesn't mean even future Cesareans have to have trauma or be unplanned or be unprepared for. We want to learn all the ways we can make birth after Cesarean better no matter how that ends. Okay Susan, ending that review, we were just talking about no matter how birth ends. When you filled out your form, there was something that you said that things sometimes don't go as planned, but learning how to advocate for yourself and know that every birth is different is going to leave you feeling better. So I'm excited for you to share your four stories with us today, and I am excited to hear how you learned and grew and had better experiences with each one.Susan: Okay, so the first birth, I was 19. I was really young, and I didn't know a whole lot about birthing in general. I just did what I was told. I went to the hospital. I did what the white-coat man told me to do, and I didn't question anything. I was just a good patient all the way around. I had an amazing birth. I walked 8 miles before my induction date because I was a week over just trying to get things going and nothing was going. But you know how they are at the hospital. You know, as soon as you hit that 40-week mark, they want something to happen as soon as possible. So around, 41 weeks, I went "overdue" according to the medical standards. I went into the hospital and was super excited. They started the Pitocin drip, and my baby did not respond to that well at all. I was actually watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and I was laughing so hard while the Pitocin was going that his heart rate actually dropped to zero, his fetal heart rate. I remember all of the nurses came rushing in. They were freaking out, and they were pulling on stuff and readjusting me. It was really scary. They stopped the Pitocin and then they restarted it, and then it happened again. So his fetal heart rate dropped scarily low two times. The doctor came back in and he said, "You have two options. You can probably go home and labor for days and days and days, or don't know how long it's going to be."Meagan: He made it sound hard though.Susan: Yeah. He made that sound not appealing at all. And then he said, "Or we can just go to the back and get a C-section and get this baby out." And I was like, "Let's do the C-section. Let's get him out asap," because I was just scared, and I was young, and I just wanted him to be okay. So we went back for the C-section, and it was a perfect recovery. I didn't really think much of it. I was just glad that I had a healthy baby.The second birth came along, and I was actually in a pretty tough situation at the time. I was faced with a choice of what am I going to do with my pregnancy? A choice that many women face. Whenever you're not in the most ideal spot to have a child at the time, no decision is easy. The decision that I chose for myself at that time was to do an adoption. I chose to go the adoption route. Whenever they had asked me about what I would want to do as far as the birth goes, I was just thinking of the adoptive parents and what would be best for them. It was a completely sacrificial thing that I did. I didn't think about myself at all or what would be best for my body or my health or anything like that. I just wanted to make sure that his adoptive parents would be there. To assure that, I just elected to have a repeat C-section. Fast forward a little bit later. I'm starting to learn a little bit more about natural birth and what that can mean in a woman's body and the benefits of it. I don't know too much, but I went to my provider on my third birth, and I mentioned, I said, "How would you feel about me trying to have a natural birth?" He just looked at me with disgust, and he was like, "Absolutely not. We're not gonna do that." I just really didn't know too much, and I just felt so defeated and like that really was the only option, and I wanted to do the right thing. I really didn't fight for myself. I think I may have mentioned it to one other person just briefly, and then I just dropped it. That was the third C-section. So at this point, I've had three C-sections that really didn't have anything to do with me or my body not progressing or anything like that. It just happened to be circumstantial. It really wasn't empowering. So far,  all three of my births had been traumatic emotionally and did not go how I really wanted at all. I mean, thank God the three babies were healthy, of course, but as far as me making decisions for myself and doing what I really would want to do, that was not present. So, fourth baby. So the fourth baby, I had a lot of firsts. So it was my first baby with the marriage that I'm in now. It was my first girl, and it was the first time that I was really able to think clearly and be able to voice what I wanted and be able to make decisions out of peace and being educated instead of making decisions out of fear and being told what to do. That was the first step that was super empowering in this process.Meagan: Yeah. I think when you start feeling empowered, that's where it begins, the second you start that. Yeah.Susan: Yep. So I went to my first appointment just to have the pregnancy confirmed. They were just pushing. The only thing they were really doing was making sure I got vaccinated. "Oh, your blood pressure's high, so you're probably at risk for preeclampsia." They're already putting me in all of these little boxes on my first visit. They're telling me to take aspirin because I had high blood pressure. I had high blood pressure, a lot of it due to white-coat syndrome just due to the trauma of being in the hospital. I was completely not at peace. I hated being there. I did not want to be at that doctor's office. And so I got in the car and I immediately am talking to my husband. We call his cousin because he comes from a family where it's really common to have home births and to use midwives and to use alternative ways. I was so blocked off that I really just couldn't see, but we started talking to his cousin and she was telling me, "No, this is actually totally possible. I know some midwives who are able to do it." I'm still clenching up with fear, but I want to let it go. I'm on Google and I'm like, "vaginal births after C-sections three times", and your podcast was actually the first one to pop up. I went on there, and I specifically looked up a story that had to do with a woman having a vaginal birth after three C-sections.  I just started to listen and my heart started to open and the fear started to dissipate. I was like, "I can do this. I can at least make a huge attempt to do it." And so I started to call different midwives and see what their availability was like. A good portion of the midwives don't want to work with you if you've had over three C-sections because they're contracted with the hospitals and are contracted with the state in some way to where they can't legally do that. It was really hard because I called around and called around, and either they weren't available or they just couldn't do it. But I finally found a midwife that was willing to work with me. Me and my husband met with her, and we sat down and talked. It was the first time I had ever had a conversation with "providers" where they actually believed in me, and they believed in my body, and they believed in my ability to give birth. It just meant so much to me to be looked at as a human and as a woman that can do this and not just as a patient who you want to push through and make money on and just get the C-section and be done and not have any risk involved. But there is risk involved having a C-section after three C-sections. There's risk doing it any way, and it's just like, what risk do you want to take?Meagan: Yeah. It's interesting, but what you were saying, "I just wanted someone to sit me down and talk to me like I'm human and have this feeling." I mean, I interviewed multiple providers, and it took me a long time to find that, too. That is what breaks my heart about this community. We have to go into these situations where we're searching for support that feels like a diamond in the rough.Susan: Yeah. And I want to just point out that even though this did end a Cesarean, and we all know that. There's no suspense there. There are so many points along the journey where I did have that healing. I did have that empowerment. It doesn't have to lead to a Cesarean in order to have that healing is what I really want my story to say. You can still make decisions and advocate yourself for yourself in a way where it doesn't necessarily have the VBAC.Meagan: Yes, yes, yes.Susan: Because I'm in the Facebook Community, and I see stories of women being so defeated and so sad when it doesn't end in the VBAC. I just want to inspire people that it doesn't have to be that. The empowerment can come in so many different forms. I was just completely elated after I spoke with her, and I just felt like it was meant to be. I loved her. I loved her energy. She had been a midwife for over 26 years. She had over 1100 home births and not a single maternal death.Meagan: Wow.Susan: Yeah. I just felt totally confident in her, so I went ahead and hired her to be my midwife. Just being able to go to her house and have the prenatal visits was so nice. That was another huge thing that was just amazing and not having to go to the hospital and fight every time. We did all of our prenatals there.She didn't beat around the bush. If there is an issue and I needed to address it, I would address it. I had a little bit of issues with my blood pressure, so I tweaked my diet and I was able to monitor that that way. Towards the end of my pregnancy, I had issues with my hemoglobin being low. I tried everything in the book, by the way, and the thing that helped me, just in case anyone's having issues with their hemoglobin, is I actually froze raw beef liver. I froze it, and then we cut it up into little tablets. I took this raw beef liver every morning because it gives you energy. Don't take it at night before you go to bed because you'll have trouble sleeping. But I took it in the morning and my hemoglobin went from like 9 to 11 within a week which was amazing because nothing else was working.Meagan: Yes.Susan: Yeah.Meagan: And I was going to say that frozen wheatgrass shots is another thing that can help with that. Yeah.Susan: Oh, I did not try that. I said I tried everything, but not that. Meagan: Liver and wheatgrass. Make a delicious smoothie.Susan: The things we do to stay healthy. So, yeah, sometimes people will try to make you feel like you're being irresponsible by not doing it the way that they've been programmed to do it. I'm just saying, it was totally responsible. If not, it was even more responsible because she may have picked up on things and was able to give me advice from a nutritional standpoint which is usually always the issue. It's something to do with your nutrition in your diet that someone in the hospital wouldn't tell me because all they wanted to tell me was to take an aspirin. Yeah.I went over. I was 42 weeks and 4 days, I think.Meagan: 42 weeks and 4 days?Susan: Yes.Meagan: Okay.Susan: So another thing I want to tell people, if you're planning on doing a home birth or doing a natural birth, even if you're planning on going to the hospital, I would recommend saying your due date is actually a month after it actually is to people just so you're not hounded at that like 39, 40-week mark because that was really hard mentally. Especially if you're planning to do a natural birth, it can be such a mental battle especially right there at the end and to have to deal with people know, being like, "Is she here yet? Did you have the baby?" It's just another thing to have to deal with. I would recommend saying it's a month after your actual due date. Yeah. I did absolutely everything you can think of to be the perfect student as far as home birth goes. I read every single book I can think of to prepare you for a natural home birth. I went into HypnoBirthing. I practiced the meditations and the exercises. I had the birth ball. I did all the exercises on the birth ball with my pelvis. I took all the right supplements. I did the pre-birth tincture. I was doing it beyond. People would try to talk to me being like, "You could die. You could bleed out," and I would cut them off. "I'm not having fear-based conversations. I'm not entertaining this. Yes, I'm going to do this because I want to do this. I'm not committed to this to the point of death for me and my child. If something goes awry I have no problem going to the hospital but this is what I'm doing. Leave me alone."Meagan: Good for you.Susan: Yeah. Yeah. So I was really proud of myself because they say it's like preparing for a marathon giving birth. So I really prepared. I had my mucus plug come out around maybe 42 weeks exactly. I was like, "oh my goodness, something's happening," because previously, I haven't experienced any signs of labor. I don't know anything. I've never had a contraction before.Meagan: Right.Susan: Even though this is my fourth child, I have no idea what any of this feels like. So I'm really excited. I'm like, "Wow, this is exciting." Actually, my water broke really shortly after that. I was sitting down on the couch, and I just started having gushes of water and gushes of water. I was talking to my midwife the whole time being like, "This is what's happening. There's so much fluid. There's so much." I had never had my water break before, so that was all new. I was scared. I was excited. She just reassured me. She goes, "No, this is just your water breaking." And she had told me that she's going to treat me like a first-time mom because I never have actually had a baby come through my birth canal. So a lot of times you can expect a long, strenuous labor when it's your first.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: So she said, "Your water has broken. That could either mean that it's going to speed things up and the baby will be here soon, or it could mean there's still a long road ahead." My midwife was really good about keeping my expectations very low as far as when the baby would be here.Meagan: Hey, I think there's something to that. We know that labor sometimes can be slower.Susan: She just didn't want me to stress out about it not happening sooner than later. She was just so good, so calm, so peaceful, and confident. I love her. She's the best midwife ever. I recommend her anytime I hear about people in the area wanting to have a home birth.I was starting to have contractions and then it would be like, go, go, go, and then everything would just stop. Because my water had broken, the chance of meconium was there. I had some meconium in my fluid, but it was yellow. It wasn't a high-alert type of meconium. It was just like, "Okay, we kind of need to get things going." So we talked and we decided to drink some castor oil. So I drank a tincture, the Midwives' Brew if you look it up on Google. I did that.Meagan: A lot of midwives will suggest that.Susan: Yes. So I did that, and it did throw me into really intense labor. We just got things going. I had my contraction timer going, and I had my sister and husband here. I really didn't want many people there at all at my birth. It's just such a private and intimate thing. That was just what I felt comfortable with. It would just be that. It would be a series of contraction after contraction, and then things would die down a little bit. I did every type of position you can think of. I went to the bath. I took baths. There was so much stuff I would do. I even found if I put my feet in really hot water, it would help take away from the pain of the contraction because I hate my feet being hot.Meagan: Oh, okay. Yeah.Susan: It would help me think more about my feet being hot. I would just do anything and everything I could to just help the process and help my body relax. As much HypnoBirthing as you do and as much meditation you do, every birth is different. At that point, I was like, "All of that is BS. All of that is crap." Hey, if it works for some people, great. I really tried to do it, but I had a lot of pain happening no matter what meditations or affirmations I was giving myself. I was talking to my midwife about that too. That's another thing I want to point out is that we all might have this vision of this really peaceful birth where the baby just slides out into your hand and you catch it and yay, everything is great.But also, I just want to everyone to give themselves permission to have a chaotic birth. If that's what your body needs to do, if you need to scream, if you need to shout, if you need to look like a hot mess, if your hair needs to be frazzled, let yourself do that. Sometimes just allowing yourself to let go a little bit can really help. I was laboring for three days.Meagan: Oh wow.Susan: I got to 7 centimeters dilated. I was so happy because my cervix was folded under.Meagan: Folded under?Susan: Yeah. So it was like a posterior cervix.Meagan: Oh, it was posterior.Susan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Meagan: Oh yeah. It starts posterior and through the labor process, it comes anterior and aligns well with the birth canal and opens and dilates and all that. Yeah.Susan: Yes. So, by the time I got to 7 centimeters, that had finally come forward.So we checked myself, and I was 7 centimeters. My cervix had come forward, and I was so happy and I cried for joy. I was like, "This is it. I'm at 7 centimeters. It's go time." And typically, that's when they have-- what do you call it when there's that shift?Meagan: Well, active labor. When active labor kicks in, is that what you were thinking?Susan: Well, I had already been in active labor. But the shift when you're at the final stage, almost? Because you know how labor will get to one stage, and your body will adapt to that, and then it'll get to another stage and another stage?Meagan: So from 6 centimeters on is statistically like that active labor stage.Susan: Okay.Meagan: I'm trying to think of what other word you're meaning, but it turns into active. Transition? is that what you're thinking?Susan: Just the most intense part. Yeah. Maybe.Meagan: Yeah, so you transition into that stage. Susan: Yeah. Okay. So, I did not go into that transition. I stayed at 7 centimeters. And even though I was having extremely hard contractions, they were not productive contractions. There was a point where I was on my toilet because that was my most comfortable place to be. I felt the safest on my toilet because I was scared of pooping. That was a fear of mine, and I wanted to be on the toilet just in case.Meagan: Were you having back and butt labor at all?Susan: I was having some back labor. I mean, it was the most pain, and it was such a journey because  you're in so much pain, and you're like, "Wow, this is the worst thing ever. How am I gonna do this?" And then the contraction goes away, and you're like, "Wow, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to be here. I'm so grateful my baby's almost here." And it's just an emotional roller coaster.Meagan: It is. Yeah.Susan: So nothing was really happening as far as the progressing. My midwife comes to me while I'm on the toilet, and she goes, "All right, Ms. Madam. Let's get your pretty dress on, and let's go for a walk." I looked at her like, "Are you crazy?" But I did it. I got my dress on, and I went for a walk through my neighborhood. I walked probably 2 miles, contracting throughout my neighborhood trying to get something going.Meagan: Wow. Susan: Yeah. And then I come back in the house, and there was two midwives there. One of them said, "If I could do my labor over, I probably would have just walked and walked and walked until the baby got there and would have tried my best not to be scared of the pain or let the pain stop me from really pushing into the contraction." So that's what I did. I started walking circles around my house, and I was telling myself, "No pain is too great to bear for my baby to be here." And I was even talking to my baby like, "Let's do this. Let's go to the next phase." I got to a point where I looked at my midwife, and I just said, "I'm exhausted. I have to lay down." I lay down, and I woke up, and my sister was lying with me. I started to just feel shivery, like really shivery. I started to get chills. It was just like I felt like I had nothing left in me. As soon as the shivers and the chills started, I knew I probably had a fever. I was looking at my sister and I just said, "I really don't feel like I can keep doing this." She said, "Well, is there something else on your mind?" I said, "Yeah, I need to go to the hospital." I'm about to start tearing up. The midwife came in and I just told her. I was like, "I need to go to the hospital. I feel like that the next step is that I just need to get in the car, and if on the way there I change my mind and I want to come back home, I'm going to give myself permission to do that."She goes, "Well, let me just check you, and let's see what's going on." It was 12 hours since my last check. It was 12 hours, and I was still at 7 centimeters. I hadn't progressed at all. I immediately just got out of my bed. I put my dress on. I don't think my husband was quite ready to go, but my midwife was, so I just started walking to her car. I'm like, "I'm going to the hospital now." I just had made up my mind, and that's what we were going to do. It was a very peaceful ride to the hospital. I had my little Depends on. She put a little pad under me. I remember asking her, "So has anyone ever peed in your front seat before?" Everything was just starting to get a little haywire. I just couldn't hold it in at all.Meagan: Yeah, yeah.Susan: We were just having a fun conversation on the way there. We got to the hospital. Well, the farther we got to the hospital, the more at peace I felt. The thought of going home was terrifying to me. As soon as we got there, I saw the nurses in the ER, and it was like beams of light were beaming through their heads. I knew I was at the right place. I got there, and they were just so sweet and so supportive. I still wanted to entertain the idea of having a vaginal birth if possible. It was just that I had to get an epidural because there was nothing left in me. I had nothing else to give in my body.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: I wanted to entertain that. And they go, "Well, yeah." They were like, "Were you hoping to have a VBAC?" And I go, "Yeah, actually I was hoping to have that," but I wasn't so committed to it to where I wouldn't have had a C-section. I already knew that I'm just going to do what's best for whatever the situation is after they assess me.But they were actually willing to let me have an epidural and have a VBAC. They were like, "Yeah, that's totally fine if that's what you want to do." And I was like, "Really?" And this was a separate group of providers that I had never experienced before. So yeah. It was absolutely amazing being talked to and being actually asked what I wanted to do.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: So they were doing all of my vitals. And as soon as I got to the hospital, that's when everything went berserk. My blood pressure skyrocketed. My heart rate went up. I was preeclamptic, and I was septic from meconium being in my uterus for that long. As soon as she was checking me, my daughter, Carrington, actually had scooted her head up a little bit to kind of show us what was going on, and the meconium was green. So as soon as I saw that there was green meconium, I was like, "Take me back for a C-section right now," because we all know that's infection. They were so relieved when I was totally fine with having a C-section. They gave me the spinal, and I just remember that being like the best feeling ever having no pain after being in such turmoil and in pain for so long.As soon as they pulled her out of me, she took another massive poop. So if I would have waited any longer, she would have been in that as well, and her chances for aspirating on it would have been really, really high. So yeah, that was it.I felt really great about the C-section. It was empowering because even up until that moment, I still was making decisions for myself and making decisions for my daughter. The decision that I made at the end was to save myself and her. To know that I made that decision and wasn't so committed to an outcome that I was able to make the right decision was like, "Wow. Yeah. I did that." Even though this is something that I wanted more than anything, I was able to let that go and save myself and her.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out of like, I had this empowering healing experience because I was really able to make the decisions along the way. You made the decision to get in that car. You made the decision to continue laboring. Then things changed. You made the decision to call it. And I think that is where a lot of the healing and growing comes from, is when we are able to make the decisions. The trauma, the fear, the hurt is when providers are coming at us and telling us what we are doing. "You are going to do this. I will only allow you to do this. You can if..." and then they give their restrictions. I think that you just nailed it on the head. You were able to make your decisions and be in control of your birth. And no, it wasn't the original outcome that you wanted. You wanted that vaginal birth. You were going for that vaginal birth. Things were really looking great, and when they weren't, you changed your mind. I just think, Women of Strength, take this with you today and know that you are in charge of your birth. Yes, babies and births can throw twists and curves and hurdles and all the things along the way, but you are the one who can make the decision for you. You do not have to be told what you do and do not have to do. Now, we also know that there are true emergent situations. There are true, true, true emergent situations where we maybe don't have a lot of time to sit and think and ponder and wonder what we should do and then follow that. It's just we have to say yes or no right then because it's an emergency situation. Susan: And being able to trust yourself that you are going to know if you need to call it and when to call it.Meagan: Yes.Susan: And that your intuition and your ability to just be in tune with your body and your baby is there.Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely.Susan: Yeah. And you'll know.Meagan: You will know. We talk about the intuition all the time. I mean, I don't know. I would say if not every podcast, probably every other or every couple other, we talk about this intuition. It is so real. I mean, Susan had this intuition. She felt it. She really did. Everybody listened to her. It's so important to be heard and to trust that intuition. So I applaud you, Susan. I'm so grateful that you were able to follow your intuition and be heard and call the shots of your own birth because you did deserve it. I am so happy for you. I know everybody else in the world cannot see your sweet baby, but I can and she's beautiful. I'm just so happy for you that you're able to have these experiences, and you have grown through each one.Susan: Mhmm, mhmm. And just the preparation of having a natural birth and what goes into it physically and mentally is worth it in itself to just give it a try if that's what you're wanting to do. And then allowing yourself to go into labor so all of your body's hormones are released in active labor, even if you do end up having a C-section, that's super valuable for your health and your baby's health.Meagan: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you that question. Yes, it ended in a Cesarean, but would you still have gone for the VBAC?Susan: Yes. I wouldn't have traded any of it for anything. I 100% would have done it again even if I knew what the outcome was going to be.Meagan: Yeah.Susan: Yeah.Meagan: Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories today.Susan: Thank you for having me here and thank you for doing this podcast and being in the business of releasing fear among women because it's like a pandemic of the mind almost.Meagan: Seriously though, we are being told that we have to be scared day in and day out. I mean, we hear these stories. I recorded a story earlier today and it was just like constant fearmongering every single time she was there. That stuff gets really tiring and it's hard to stand up to. But again, it comes down to education, learning these stories, learning your options, and then again following that intuition. So yeah, Women of Strength, you are amazing.Susan: Thank you. You're amazing too, Meagan.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 7 – Making Fractions More Meaningful Guest: Dr. Susan Empson Mike Wallus: For quite a few adults, fractions were a stumbling block in their education that caused many to lose their footing and begin to doubt their ability to make sense of math. But this doesn't have to be the case for our students. Today on the podcast, we're talking with Dr. Susan Empson about big ideas and fractions and how we can make them more meaningful for our students. Welcome to the podcast. Susan. Thanks for joining us. Susan Empson: Oh, it's so great to be here. Thank you for having me. Mike: So, your book was a real turning point for me as an educator, and one of the things that it did for me at least, it exposed how little that I actually understood about the meaning of fractions. And I say this because I don't think that I'm alone in saying that my own elementary school experience was mostly procedural. So rather than attempting to move kids quickly to procedures, what types of experiences can help children build a more meaningful understanding of fractions? Susan: Great question. Before I get started, I just want to acknowledge my collaborators because I've had many people that I've worked with. There's Linda Levi, co-author of the book, and then my current research partner, Vicki Jacobs. And of course, we wouldn't know anything without many classroom teachers we've worked with in the current and past graduate students. In terms of the types of experiences that can help children build more meaningful experiences of fractions, the main thing we would say is to offer opportunities that allow children to use what they already understand about fractions to solve and discuss story problems. Children's understandings are often informal and early on, for example, may consist mainly partitioning things in half. What I mean by informal is that understandings emerge in situations out of school. So, for example, many children have siblings and have experienced situations where they have had to share, let's say three cookies or slices of pizza between two children. In these kinds of situations, children appreciate the need for equal shares, and they also develop strategies for creating them. So, as children solve and discuss story problems in school, their understandings grow. The important point is that story problems can provide a bridge between children's existing understandings and new understandings of fractions by allowing children to draw on these informal experiences. Generally, we recommend lots of experiences with story problems before moving on to symbolic work to give children plenty of opportunity to develop meaningful fractions. And we also recommend using story problems throughout fraction instruction. Teachers can use different types of story problems and adjust the numbers in those problems to address a range of fraction content. There are also ideas that we think are foundational to understanding fractions, and they're all ideas that can be elicited and developed as children engage in solving and discussing story problems.  Susan: So, one idea is that the size of a piece is determined by its relationship to the whole. What I mean is that it's not necessarily the number of pieces into which a whole is partitioned that determines the size of a piece. Instead, it's how many times the piece fits into the whole. So, in their problem-solving, children create these amounts and eventually name them and symbolize them as unit fractions. That's any fraction with 1 in the numerator. Mike: You know, one of the things that stands out for me in that initial description that you offered, is this idea of kids don't just make meaning of fractions at school, that their informal lived experiences are really an asset that we can draw on to help make sense of what a fraction is or how to think about it. Susan: That's a wonderful way to say it. And absolutely, the more teachers get to know the children in their classrooms and the kinds of experiences those children might have outside of school, the more of that can be incorporated into experiences like solving story problems in school. Mike: Well, let's dig into this a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about the kinds of story problems or the structure that actually provides an entry point and can build understanding of fractions for students. Can you talk a bit about that, Susan? Susan: Yes. So, I'll describe a couple types of story problems that we have found especially useful to elicit and develop children's fraction understandings. So first, equal sharing story problems are a powerful type of story problem that can be used at the beginning of and even throughout instruction. These problems involve sharing multiple things among multiple sharers. So, for example, four friends equally sharing 10 oranges. How much orange would each friend get? Problems like this one allow children to create fractional amounts by drawing things, partitioning those things, and then attaching fraction names and symbols. So, let's [talk] a little bit about how a child might solve the oranges problem. A child might begin by drawing four friends and then distributing whole oranges one by one until each friend has two whole oranges. Now, there are two oranges left and not enough to give each friend another whole orange. So, they have to think about how to partition the remaining oranges. Susan: They might partition each orange in half and give one more piece to each friend, or they might partition each of the remaining oranges into fourths and give two pieces to each friend. Finally, they have to think about how to describe how much each friend gets in terms of the wholes and the pieces. They might simply draw the amount, they might shade it in, or they might attach number names to it. I also want to point out that a problem about four friends equally sharing 10 oranges can be solved by children with no formal understanding of fraction names and symbols because there are no fractions in the story problem. The fractions emerge in children's strategies and are represented by the pieces in the answer. The important thing here is that children are engaged in creating pieces and considering how the pieces are related to the wholes or other pieces. The names and symbols can be attached gradually. Mike: So, the question that I wanted to ask is how to deal with this idea of how you name those fractional amounts, because the process that you described to me, what's powerful about it is that I can directly model the situation. I can make sense of partitioning. I think one of the things that I've always wondered about is, do you have a recommendation for how to navigate that naming process? I've got one of something, but it's not really one whole orange. So how do I name that? Susan: That's a great question. Children often know some of the informal names for fractions, and they might understand halves or even fourths. Initially, they may call everything a half or everything a piece or just count everything as one. And so, what teachers can do is have conversations with children about the pieces they've created and how the pieces relate to the whole. A question that we've found to be very helpful is, how many of those pieces fit into the whole? Mike: Got it. Susan: Not a question about how many pieces are there in the whole, but how many of the one piece fit into the whole. Because it then focuses children on thinking about the relationship between the piece and the whole rather than simply counting pieces. Mike: Let's talk about the other problem type that was kind of front and center in your thinking. Susan: Yes. So, another type of story problem that can be used early in fraction instruction involves what we think of as special multiplication and division story problems that have a whole number of groups and a unit fraction amount in each group. So, what do I mean by that? For example, let's say there are six friends and they each will get one-third of a sub sandwich for lunch. So, there's a whole number of groups—that's the six friends—and there's a unit fraction amount in each group that's the one-third of a sandwich that they each get. And then the question is how many sandwiches will be needed for the friends? So, a problem like this one essentially engages children in reasoning about six groups of one-third. And again, as with the equal sharing problem about oranges, they can solve it by drawing out things. They might draw each one-third of a sandwich, and then they have to consider how to combine those to make whole sandwiches. An important idea that children work on with this problem then is that three groups of one-third of a sandwich can be combined to make one whole sandwich. There are other interesting types of story problems, but teachers have found these two types, in particular, effective in developing children's understandings of some of the big ideas and fractions. Mike: I wonder if you have educators who hear you talk about the second type of problem and are a little bit surprised because they perceive it to be multiplication. Susan: Yes, it is surprising. And the key is not that you teach all of multiplying and dividing fractions before adding and subtracting fractions, but that you use these problem types with special number combinations. So, a whole number of groups, for example, the six groups unit fractions in each group—because those are the earliest fractions children understand. And I think maybe one way to think about it is that fractions come out of multiplying and dividing, kind of in the way that whole numbers come out of adding and counting. And the key is to provide situations story problems that have number combinations in them that children are able to work with. Mike: That totally makes sense. Can you say more about the importance of attending to the number combinations? Susan: Yes. Well, I think that the number combinations that you might choose would be the ones that are able to connect with the fraction understandings that children already have. So, for example, if you're working with kindergartners, they might have a sense of what one half is. So, you might choose equal sharing problems that are about sharing things among two children. So, for example, three cookies among two children. You could even, once children are able to name the halves, they create in a problem like that, you can even pose problems that are about five children who each get half of a sandwich, how many sandwiches is that? But those are all numbers that are chosen to allow children to use what they understand about fractions. And then as their understandings grow and their repertoire of fractions also grows, you can increase the difficulty of the numbers. So, at the other end, let's think about fifth grade and posing equal sharing problems. If we take that problem about four friends sharing 10 oranges, we could change the number just a little bit to make it a lot harder to, four friends sharing 10 and a half oranges, and then fifth-graders would be solving a problem that's about finding a fraction of a fraction, sharing the half orange among the four children. Mike: Let me take what you've shared and ask a follow-up question that came to me as you were talking. It strikes me that the design, the number choices that we use in problems matter, but so does the space that the teacher provides for students to develop strategies and also the way that the teacher engages with students around their strategy. Could you talk a little bit about that, Susan? Susan: Yes. We think it's important for children to have space to solve problems, fraction story problems, in ways that make sense to them and also space to share their thinking. So, just as teachers might do with whole number problem-solving in terms of teacher questioning in these spaces, the important thing is for the teacher to be aware of and to appreciate the details of children's thinking. The idea is not to fix children's thinking with questioning, but to understand it or explore it. So, one space that we have found to be rich for this kind of questioning is circulating. So, that's the time when as children solve problems, the teacher circulates and has conversations with individual children about their strategies. So, follow-up questions that focus on the details of children's strategies help children to both articulate their strategies and to reflect on them and help teachers to understand what children's strategies are. We've also found that obvious questions are sometimes underappreciated. So, for example, questions about what this child understands about what's happening in a story problem, what the child has done so far in a partial strategy, even questions about marks on a child's paper; shapes or tallies that you as a teacher may not be quite sure about, asking what they mean to the child. “What are those? Why did you make those? How did they connect with the problem?” So, in some it benefits children to have the time to articulate the details of what they've done, and it benefits the teacher because they learn about children's understandings. Mike: You're making me think about something that I don't know that I had words for before, which is I wonder if, as a field, we have made some progress about giving kids the space that you're talking about with whole number operations, especially with addition and subtraction. And you're also making me wonder if we still have a ways to go about not trying to simply funnel kids to, even if it's not algorithms, answer-getting strategies with rational numbers. I'm wondering if that strikes a chord for you or if that feels off base. Susan: It feels totally on base to me. I think that it is as beneficial, perhaps even more beneficial for children to engage in solving story problems and teachers to have these conversations with them about their strategies. I actually think that fractions provide certain challenges that whole numbers may not, and the kinds of questioning that I'm talking about really depend on the details of what children have done. And so, teachers need to be comfortable with and familiar with children's strategies and how they think about fractions as they solve these problems. And then that understanding, that familiarity, lays the groundwork for teachers to have these conversations. The questions that I'm talking about can't really be planned in advance. Teachers need to be responsive to what the child is doing and saying in the moment. And so that also just adds to the challenge. Mike: I'm wondering if you think that there are ways that educators can draw on the work that students have done composing and decomposing whole numbers to support their understanding of fractions? Susan: Yes. We see lots of parallels just as children's understandings of whole numbers develop. They're able to use these understandings to solve multi-digit operations problems by composing and decomposing numbers. So, for example, to take an easy addition, to add 37 plus eight, a child might say, “I don't know what that is, but I do know how to get from 37 to 40 with three.” So, they take three from the eight, add it to the 37 get to 40, and then once at 40 they might say, “I know that 40 plus five more is 45.” So, in other words, they decompose the eight in a way that helps them use what they understand about decade numbers. Operations with fractions work similarly, but children often do not think about the similarities because they don't understand fractions or numbers to, versus two numbers one on top of the other. Susan: If children understand that fractions can be composed and decomposed just as whole numbers can be composed and decomposed, then they can use these understandings to add, subtract, multiply, and divide fractions. For example, to add one and four-fifths plus three-fifths, a child might say, “I know how to get up to two from one in four-fifths. I need one more fifth, and then I have two more fifths still to add from the three-fifths. So, it's two and two-fifths.” So, in other words, just as they decompose the eight into three and five to add eight to 37, they decompose the three-fifths into one-fifth and two-fifths to add it to one and four-fifths. Mike: I could imagine a problem like one and a half plus five-eighths. I could say, “Well, I know I need to get a half up. Five-eighths is really four-eighths and one-eighths, and four-eighths is a half.” Susan: Yep. Mike: “So, I'm actually going from one and a half plus four-eighths. OK. That gets me to two, and then I've got one more eighth left. So, it's two and an eighth.” Susan: Nice. Yeah, that's exactly the kind of reasoning this approach can encourage. Mike: Well, I have a final question for you, Susan. “Extending Children's Mathematics” came out in 2011, and I'm wondering what you've learned since the book came out. So, are there ideas that you feel like have really been affirmed or refined, and what are some of the questions about the ways that students make meaning of fractions that you're exploring right now? Susan: Well, I think, for one, I have a continued appreciation for the power of equal sharing problems. You can use them to elicit children's informal understandings of fractions early in instruction. You can use them to address a range of fraction understandings, and they can be adapted for a variety of fraction content. So, for example, building meaning for fractions, operating with fractions, concepts of equivalence. Vicki and I are currently writing up results from a big research project focused on teachers' responsiveness to children's fraction thinking during instruction. And right now, we're in the process of analyzing data on third-, fourth-, and fifth-grade children's strategies for equal sharing problems. We specifically focused on over 1,500 drawing-based strategies used by children in a written assessment at the end of the school year. We've been surprised both by the variety of details in these strategies—so, for example, how children represent items, how they decide to distribute pieces to people—and also by the percentages of children using these drawing-based strategies. For each of grades three, four, and five, over 50 percent of children use the drawing-based strategy. There are also, of course, other kinds of strategies that don't depend on drawings that children use, but by far the majority of children were using these strategies. Mike: That's interesting because I think it implies that we perhaps need to recognize that children actually benefit from time using those strategies as a starting point for making sense of the problems that they're solving. Susan: I think it speaks to the length of time and the number of experiences that children need to really build meaning for fractions that they can then use in more symbolic work. I'll mention two other things that we've learned for which we actually have articles in the NCTM publication MTLT, which is “Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching in PK–I2.” So first, we've renewed appreciation for the importance of unit fractions and story problems to elicit and develop big ideas. Another idea is that unit fractions are building blocks of other fractions. So, for example, if children solve the oranges problem by partitioning both of the extra oranges into fourths, then they have to combine the pieces in their answer. One-fourth from each of two oranges makes two-fourths of an orange. Another idea is that one whole can be seen as the same amount as a grouping of same-sized unit fractions. So, those unit fractions can all come from the same hole or different wholes, for example, to solve the problem about six friends who will each get one-third of a sub sandwich. A child has to group the one-third sandwiches to make whole sandwiches. Understanding that the same sandwich can be seen in these two ways, both as three one-third sandwiches or as one whole sandwich, provides a foundation for flexibility and reasoning. For those in the audience who are familiar with CGI, this idea is just like the IDM base ten, that 1 ten is the same amount as ten 1s, or what we describe in shorthand as 10 as a unit. And we also have an article in MTLT. It's about the use of follow-up equations to capture and focus on fraction ideas in children's thinking for their story problems. So basically, teachers listen carefully as children solve problems and explain their thinking to identify ideas that can be represented with the equations. Susan: So, for example, a child solving the sub-sandwiches problem might draw a sandwich partitioned into thirds and say they know that one sandwich can serve three friends because there are three one-thirds in the sandwich. That idea for the child might be drawn, it might be verbally stated. A follow-up equation to capture this idea might be something like one equals one-third plus one-third plus blank, with the question for the child, “Could you finish this equation or make it a true equation?” So, follow-up equation[s] often make ideas about unit fractions explicit and put them into symbolic form for children. And then at the same time, the fractions in the equations are meaningful to children because they are linked to their own meaning-making for a story problem. And so, while follow-up equations are not exactly a question, they are something that teachers can engage children with in the moment as a way to kind of put some symbols onto what they are saying, help children to reflect on what they're saying or what they've drawn, in ways that point towards the use of symbols. Mike: That really makes sense. Susan: So, they could be encouraged to shade in the piece and count the total number of pieces into which an orange is cut. However, we have found that a better question is, how many of this size piece fit into the whole? Because it focuses children on the relationship between the piece and the whole, and not on only counting pieces. Mike: Oh, that was wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us, Susan. It's really been a pleasure talking with you. Susan: Thank you. It's been my pleasure. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com.   S4E31 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are fortunate to have with us Susan, who is a new member of the Atheopagan Society Council, and we're interviewing the new members of the Council over the next... A couple of months or so the ones that, that want to be interviewed, just to get to know them and find out what their thinking is about all this stuff we're doing. So welcome, Susan. Susan: thanks for having me on. Yucca: And some of you who watch the YouTube channel may recognize Susan from there, who's been, who's part of the media team, and has been making excellent videos. Mark: Yes, yes. Susan is the glue on of the media team. She holds us all together. Yucca: which is not always easy appreciated with all of the emails that have been chasing us down to make all our schedules work, and yep, Susan: I try to balance it so that everybody doesn't think I'm super annoying, but helpful, not annoying. Mark: So far, so good. So, Susan why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to atheopaganism and, you know, all that good kind of stuff. Susan: Yeah. Well, the short answer like it seems a lot of people is COVID brought me to atheopaganism. I, and I do have a short video, I think it's the first one that I did on the YouTube channel if anybody wants to check that out of my, my non theist upbringing and, and this kind of channel, so I'll, I'll make it a short version, but I live in the Midwest, in Ohio, and I've lived here my whole life, and I was raised without religion, but also not specifically atheist either. It was just sort of, we didn't talk about it. I didn't know the difference between a Republican and a Democrat until I was in high school because it was just, you know, I was left to my own devices. And I appreciate that for, for some things. There's definitely parts of me where I'm like, well, it'd be nice to have a little bit more direction. And I, we're kind of taking that track with our, with our daughter. I am, I'm married and I have six, soon to be seven year old, and kind of navigating that that space. My husband was raised Catholic, so we're kind of marrying together. He, he likes to call it ethnically Catholic, because he doesn't believe any of the stuff there, but so yeah, we, I, from a, Medium age started dabbling in stuff about the time when I was, you know, I'm an 80s baby. So by the time I was in high school, it was late 90s. And all of the witchy stuff started showing up all over the Barnes and Nobles. I'm like, Ooh, what is this? And especially the tarot card section with lots of stuff to touch and play with. So I I explored that area and the pagan, which at that time, at least, you know, Wicca was the super dominant thing in, at least that was publicly available. And so I dabbled in that for a while, and I kind of got It's like, this is fun, but I also don't really believe in this whole, you know, people try to rationalize it with, oh, it's the energy, and you're affecting the energy, and I was like, yeah, yeah, that, that makes sense, sure, and I, you know, doing the little, the little lie to yourself thing for a while. And then I kind of walked away from it for a while and just didn't, didn't bother with my, my spiritual life for a while until I got married. And we wanted to have a community for our child to grow up in so we joined a UU congregation, Unitarian Universalist, and they have, in our particular one, a fairly decent showing of pagan folks. And so I kind of picked that back up and we had a little bit of a range from full capital W witch to people who I think, you know, if I talked to them long enough about atheopaganism, that would be more up their alley but didn't, you know, know the words for it at that time. So it kind of came through there and then COVID hit and, you know, that community was sort of, sort of gone. But I was on the board and I was doing all of these committees and doing all the, I was doing all the work of being in a community, but not getting the community out of it. It was also right after we had merged. So my, my group went from 40 to 60 members to 200 and some people. And I didn't know all these people I was doing the work for and it just kind of, I kind of drifted away and was I was focusing more on what is it that I do believe in, since I had spent so much time just defining what I didn't believe in, and I found, kind of simultaneously, Druidry, which is something I'm, I'm pretty involved in, is my personal path, but also atheopaganism, and actually found I found out about atheopaganism through a blog whose, I can't remember what the blog was about but there was sort of an about me page and the person was describing, yeah, I don't really, you know, believe in the metaphysical part of this, but I still think it's really helpful check out atheopaganism, I'm like, yes, thank you, I will, and signed right up on the spot and I remember I read the, the principles And I don't know what bits of the, of the pages, but I remember running to my husband and being like, oh my gosh, I found them. I found my people. They're here, they exist. , I found it. I didn't know this was the words I needed, but I needed the word these words, you know, there's the validation of other people Yucca: was that during lockdown or was that a little bit afterwards? Susan: That was, I think, during lockdown 'cause I remember. We had still the the Earth centered group at my UU congregation was trying to do monthly Zoom get togethers, and I remember one of them, I was just, like, very excited to share with people that I had found both atheopaganism and the Druid organizations that I had joined at the same time, so. Mark: Well, that's very cool. I, I always love hearing these stories 'cause people, you know, people come to us through all different kinds of ways and and there is very commonly that I found them. They, they exist. I'm not the only one I am feeling which. I actually share, even though, you know, I, I wrote the essay in the book and stuff, because when other people started showing up, I, similarly, I was like, oh, I'm not the only one, there's more of us. This is great. So, very exciting. Well, it's great to have you with us, Susan. Thank you so much. So, You've just joined the Atheopagan Society Council and and you've been helping with the media team for a while. You're a very organized, get it done kind of person, which is really great.  Susan: Thanks. Mark: so, I don't know, what are your thoughts about this community and where we're going and, you know, what things would you like to see happen? You know, like new programs or any of that kind of stuff, if you've thought about it. Susan: I think my main thing that I want to see is that I hope you're going anywhere soon, but, you know, I want to make, I want to show up so that down the road we don't trickle and fade away when, you know, you, Mark, or, you know, the, the original set of people doing the council you know, are gone or, or, you know, have to be pulled away for whatever reason. I just don't want it to, to fade and be the thing that, that used to be really great for a while and then just nobody could keep up for it, keep up with it. And so that's something I'm interested in is, and I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what infrastructure we, you know, are going to end up with to make that be something that really sticks and stays and has standing. I imagine it'll be Getting a lot of volunteers and getting a lot of structure in place for volunteers so that people, you know, we don't avoid burnout. And that's I know, that's one of the things that we're talking about at the council meeting coming up. But that's, that's kind of my priority. But I am excited about the idea of getting more, not necessarily content, but getting more things in place for people to do in person, even if it's not with other people, but just more of an idea I was in a sorority in college and it was a One of the things that I thought was fun about that is that there were certain things that you did and you're, you know, it's, you know, a secret and secret rituals that everybody does, but you knew that even though you went to a different school than this person that you maybe met down the street and they went to school. different school, but they were still part of the same sorority as you. You knew they had the same ritual as you, Mark: hmm. Susan: and I love that we have so much open endedness of, you know, build your own adventure within atheopaganism. I think it might be fun to get something in place that is something we can all share, or those who are interested can all share, and like, I don't know if that looks like a standard ritual format or something, which is what some other organizations do, like some of the druid organizations, I mean, what they have. Here's our official format, and I don't know that that's something that we would really want, but something that has that feel to it, that essence of, hey, here's how you can feel a part of this, On your own, but still together kind of a feel. I think more of those kinds of things would be. And I think that would help a lot of people who seem to be clamoring for structure, you know, there's definitely the people in the community who are like, I am totally happy to do this by myself and come up with my own thing. And that's great. But then there seemed to be a lot of people who want a little more hand holding with their practice too. Mark: Mm hmm. Susan: So that's kind of, Yucca: of the insights that you have that I've really appreciated is that you're a fellow parent with, with a kiddo in the same age range and it's been nice to have someone to bounce off some of that, you know, how do we make that feeling available for, for kids who are growing up in this community? Because that's something that, for me, growing up as a pagan kid, there wasn't really anything for us. It was like, it was all the grown up stuff, and we were just sort of, you know, put it at a third wheel, right? And I think that it'd be nice for our community to have something a little bit more, more community for the kids as well. And I know that not everybody has kids in the community, but that's something that... There definitely are, there's quite a few of us, so, Mark: hmm. Sure. Susan: yeah. Yucca: something that you've brought that I've really valued, Susan. Mark: Yeah, I mean, I don't have kids, but I, I absolutely support that. I think that having activities for families that that work for the adults as well as for the kids is something that I really would like to see us have more of. Yucca: Mm Susan: Especially for parents who maybe only one of them is into it. My husband is very supportive and so, Mark: Mm-hmm. Susan: I, I know that I'm lucky in getting the amount of participation that I do, and there's plenty of people who are parents who it's very one sided and, you know, they may not get the, the family feel, like we can, I at least can say this is what we're doing as a family, but if you don't even have that, it can, it could be really nice to have. That feeling with other people, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're gonna be talking about some ideas for that at the upcoming council meeting on Wednesday.  Yucca: And those are quarterly meetings. Mark: yes, Yucca: We do them after each solstice and equinox. Mark: yeah. So I'm, I'm pretty excited about some of those ideas. Some of them could be a lot of work to implement. But once they kind of got up and rolling, I think there would be so much excitement about... The activities themselves that that there would be a lot of, that that momentum would create the excitement that would create the volunteerism to keep it going, if you know what I mean. So, let's see first of all, I guess, do you have questions for us? Susan: man I feel like I'm trying, I'm trying to think of questions you haven't already answered on the podcast before or things that Mark: Oh, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. You're, you're, it's okay if it's been asked before, that's, that's perfectly all right. Susan: No, I just mean, I'm like, I feel like I'm like, no, they said they answered that question for me before because I've, I've tried to keep up on it. I don't know that I've listened to every episode, but,  Yucca: we certainly do have folks who've done every single episode, but we have a lot of people who kind of come in for a few episodes, and then out, and then people who just find the podcast, and lots of different listening styles, or people who've listened for every year. But how many years are we at now? Mark: We're in season four, Yucca: Yeah, Mark: so. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's closing in on 200 episodes, I think. So it's, it's a, a chunk of work and time if you really wanna listen to all of them, which is why we, we do an episode for every Sabbath every year. We don't just say, go and listen to last year's, you know, Mayday episode. Instead, we do a new one every year because we've got people that are new to the podcast and you know, the stuff may be new for them. Uhhuh Yucca: Well, and it's a Susan: And hopefully there's something changing. Yucca: I'm curious to go back and listen and be like, did I even say remotely the same thing? Probably. But, Mark: you know, Susan, you were talking about a shared ritual. And what immediately popped into my head is the pouring of a libation, which is a very old, I mean, the Greeks used to pour libations, you know, in honor of their gods and stuff. And I wonder if we might have something like that, that would be kind of a shared atheopagan ritual that everybody would do to do that kind of offering to the earth. That might be kind of neat to put some, put some ritual trappings around and turn into something that we all share. Thank you. Susan: Yeah. And maybe I'm thinking do it on a, have it as a day that's not necessarily one of the spokes of the wheel, if you will. So it's, we're not interrupting anybody's already scheduled programming for this thing, like an extra, maybe it's on Earth Day or something, you know, like a, Yucca: Pi Mark: Huh. Susan: people won't already have their own set Mark: Huh. Yeah. Yeah. I'll think about it. I love the idea. Yeah. The equivalent of an atheopagan secret handshake. Uh Yucca: Hmm. Susan: Another thing I've been thinking about that I would be, I would love to do, at least for myself someday, is there's been a lot of chatter in the community lately about atheopagan saints, and I'm, I recently picked up from my friend who's in one of my druid groups, a Celtic Catholic set of prayer books, and it's kind of like a daily prayer thing, and I know that, I don't know a whole lot about Catholicism, but I know there's like a saint for every day, and I think it would just be fun to have a, like a solid atheopagan devotional kind of a thing, right, with Like, oh, today is, and I was, I started collecting things, so there's a day in February, I don't remember which day, it, of course, because everything, you know, gets mushed around with, over time and history, but I want to start celebrating Fornicalia in February, and for the Thank you. ancient god Fornax, who was in charge of baking bread in ovens. And it's like a day that you clean your oven and bake bread in it. So I'm like, Ooh, this might actually motivate me to do the thing that I don't want to do if I make it into a holiday and say, this is the thing that we're doing. Yucca: Very practical, right? Mark: you said Fornicalia, I went in an entirely Susan: Yeah, that sounds fun. It's less fun than you think. But bread Yucca: that day is in February, isn't it? The 14th? Isn't that day already in February? The 14th? Susan: Fornacalea is like the Like the 28th or something. I'll look it up and put it in Mark: think you may be thinking of Lupercalia. Susan: I'm going to find it. But yeah, it's, I have it as the 17th in my calendar, but you know, Mark: The day to clean your oven and bake bread in it. I love it. Susan: Yeah. Now I just need another one, you know, six months hence, so that I clean it more than once a year, but that's optimistic Yucca: Could there be, could there be one for air filters, too? Susan: yeah, right. That can be our shared ritual is clean your filter Mark: is replacing your, your air filters. Yeah. I love that. I, I love, I love the idea of I mean, I have so many regular observances that I do just for myself, and I never, you know, I'm, I'm very careful, I don't, I don't want to prescribe them for anybody else, you know, it's like, this definitely is a choose your own adventure kind of thing. Thank you. Religious path. It's like build what works for you, but it would be nice to be able to offer to people, you know, here's this compilation of, I don't know, five days every month or something that are special days that are the birthday of some significant, you know, scientist or innovator or creator in history and little bit of history about him and something that you can do, pour out that libation. You know, in honor of, oh, I'm spacing on the name. I just shared on Facebook to my friend group a a biography of this woman who actually figured out that the universe was mostly made of hydrogen. And I don't remember her name, but she's responsible for us understanding what the universe is made of. And she didn't even get any credit for it. Her somebody else published the results. You know, pretty typical for women scientists in the, in the Susan: hmm. Yucca: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know who that is, right? Which, itch is a problem that we don't know that. Mark: yes, yes, well, I'm going to look it up right now. So this, Susan: yeah, people really liked the 13 different atheopagan principles applied to the moon cycles, and that's great. It's, it's an offering, not a prescription, and, and people are just like, oh yes, thank you, give me, give me ideas. Yucca: yeah, maybe, I mean, when you were talking about those things, like a daily Right? Like a book that you read about, your little paragraph. I know a lot of different religions do that, and things that are totally secular, too. Like just a daily something. You know, I certainly use those in my practice that are just, they're really nice, right? It's just like this little thing, and it's like, oh, okay, cool. Just kind of think about this for the day, Mark: little Susan: Mm hmm. Yucca: right? And you take it or you don't take it, but it's kind of nice to have, to see how it just fits into whatever your experience is. And even if you use the same book more than one year in a row, like, by the time you get back around to May 14th or whatever it is, like, you've had the whole experience of a year and you're gonna see it in a different way, it's gonna fit into your life in a different way. Mark: mm hmm, Cecilia Payne, Yucca: Pain, okay. Mark: Cecilia Payne. Since her death in 1979, the woman who discovered what the universe is made of has not so much as received a memorial plaque. Really amazing. Susan: Well, that's an idea for if we for, for listeners, one of the things we're thinking about maybe doing is the scout program. If we have that, we can have that as the capstone project for somebody Yucca: Yeah. Susan: her a plaque. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that would be great. Some kind of a memorial. The person who figured out what the universe is made of probably deserves some kind of recognition. Yucca: Do podcast. Susan: Yeah, I don't know if it's a good idea. Yucca: And I know we have, there's not, like things aren't set in stone, but what, when you say scout, like, what are you talking about? Susan: yeah, well at least it was sort of talked in the community about this. I think it would be fun for adults too, but like, it's hard to, as a parent for me at least my husband was an Eagle Scout in the Boy Scout program, but I know, and I know that they have made some reforms and some steps in the right direction, but for me it's still not enough to feel comfortable enrolling my daughter in it and I have reservations about Girl Scouts for different reasons. Capitalism, and genderification, and just different things that I'm just not, there are certainly troops that I'm sure do a wonderful job, and there are certainly troops that don't but Yucca: A lot to navigate though. Mm-hmm. Susan: It's, yeah, it's a hard thing to navigate and I don't want to start it and have it come crashing down on her. So, and I think we sort of chatted in the community about this being a common thing and I had posted a few things a few months ago asking people about spiral scouts, which is a more pagan oriented group. And so now the, the scuttlebutt is, you know, maybe we can be an atheopagan chapter of that. Maybe we can create our own thing, like what is and what would be a nice thing. But a lot of parents have commented on it and said, Oh, yes, please sign me up. Dude, let's do this. Mark: hmm. Susan: We can't necessarily do things in person, not for logistical reasons. I'm very fortunate that I have A handful of atheopagans right near me. It's really great. I think I'm the only one with, with kids that I'm aware of, but it's not the case for a lot of folks. Mark: Yeah, I mean, we are, we're spread pretty thinly. So, our, most of our opportunity for face to face stuff comes through mediation like this, like Zoom. But that said if there Thanks If Spiral Scouts can be done in a way where there's like, kind of a learning chapter set of activities that get sent to a family, either as a PDF or in a physical package or, you know, however that works, and then, you know, all the different families that are doing it can do that and then come together over Zoom and kind of share their experience and show off their cool thing that they made and all that, I think that would be a really wonderful thing both for kids and for parents. It'd, you know, be a real, you know, wonderful thing to share with, with your kids, I would think. Yucca: I know my kids are definitely excited about the idea of badges , because they see that in, in the media of, there's so many different things where it's like, where it has that setup, like, oh, the comic, you know, the, like lumber Janes for instance, and there's like badges in that and the oh, what's it called? The, there's a Netflix show. Susan: Hilda? Yucca: Hilda, yes, with this, with the I'm forgetting the name of their scouts, but they had, it was named after a bird, right? And so they see that and they're always like, I want badges for that, right? So I'm sure they would be very enthusiastic about anything badge related. Mark: I really like that the Spiral Scouts has kept the badges but gotten rid of ranks. Yucca: Mm. Mark: So there's, there's no hierarchy of, you know, in the Boy Scouts you start out as a tender foot and then you work your way up through all these levels until you're an Eagle Scout, right? And, you know, some of the stuff in there is very useful and wonderful stuff to do. I mean, you have to do a community project in order to become an Eagle Scout, and those are, you know, it builds a sense of responsibility to the broader community, which is great. But the rank thing, I mean, I was big into Cub Scouts. My, my Cub Scout shirt looked like a a Latin American dictator from the 1950s. I had so many pins and badges and medals and it was ridiculous. The thing must have weighed five pounds. And I was really into that. But when I got to Boy Scouts, suddenly it was like paramilitary training and I just didn't want any part of it. It was, you know, it's like lining up for inspection of your uniform and stuff like that. It was, Hmm. Not, not my idea of a good time. So, no ranks in in Spiral Scouts. Just skill attainments. Susan: That's what I think my little one would be interested in too is just the gamification of learning life skills. Mark: Mm hmm. Susan: That's what I would love badges too. I would love a an adult 13 principles and four pillars set of badges and you do, I don't know what it is, like you do a small project for each one and you get a badge or, I don't know, honor system. Mark: we should absolutely do that. Just, just create a, a checklist of things that you do for each of the, the principals and then, you know, we'll have badges made and or, you know, or people could download the the... The software for the patch sewing machines, and then they could go, go to a local producer and have the patches made for them bunch of different ways we could do that. Well, I really have my mind spinning around all this now. It's going to be terribly disappointing if we decide we can't do it. But Yucca: Well, there's also, we can always, you know, spiral back around to ideas too, because we have to, we have to look at what, you know, what can we currently do, and what are the priorities of the community at the time, and see how things go. So, so Susan, if you were talking about the future, right, what would be your fantasy for 50 years from now? What would you hope to see? What would atheopaganism be in, you know, 50 years? It's, it's not us on the council anymore, right? Definitely other Mark: And I'm dead. Yucca: Maybe, hey, you might hang in there. Maybe, Mark: 50 years from now, I would Yucca: maybe medical technology will change. Mark: eleven. Yucca: Oh, that's a great Bilbo, right? Okay. Susan: As my, my daughter says, when you're 100, you're compost. Yucca: so what would you hope? Just, just fantasy, right? What would, what would we look like? Susan: I mean, I would love to see us be at the scale of, like, UU, where maybe, you know, there's not necessarily Church building on every corner kind of a thing like you get with, you know, your Baptist churches and your Catholic churches and all that kind of stuff, but I would love to have expanded enough that we have so much in person opportunity, and maybe it's not, you know, a congregation where everybody comes together on Sundays or that kind of thing, because I don't, I don't know that that's a right fit, but just to have, I don't know, your local atheopagan community center place that everybody comes together for their monthly meeting or whatever it is, but just more, just more. I think I would just love to connect with more people, because I think there's so many, there's definitely people, at least in my life, who are happy just being atheists, and that's fine for them and that's great, they can enjoy that, but I think that there are a lot of people who I know who could benefit from something like this, and anybody that I've talked to for more than two minutes Where I've been had a chance to answer their questions about it because you just say the words and they're like, that doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that if you're an atheist? Right? Then they're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I can see that. I understand. I understand why you would want to do that. And I think maybe a lot of people who are trapped. who feel trapped by atheism or who feel trapped by more traditional religious practices would find peace and joy with us. And I think, I don't know, I'm sure everybody feels this way about their own religious path, but I feel like if there were more of us, then the world would be a nicer place. But Mark: Yeah, I like to think so. We're we're, we're, we're about people being happy and the world being a better place. It's kind of hard to go wrong with those as your touchstones. It's God, it's, you know, we're doing this strategic plan in the Atheopagan Society, which by the way we created so that atheopaganism would have a container that could persist past me or anybody else, any other individual. You know, that's, that's why the society exists. And my book, I'm, I'm willing the rights to my book to the society. So, you know, that will always be available to atheopagans in the future. But I was saying, we're doing this strategic plan for like the next two or three years because it's hard to imagine much beyond that. So thinking about Yucca: So I said fantasy. Yeah. Mark: yeah, 50 is like mind blowing. I can't even, can't even get my mind around that. Yucca: I have a 20, Mark. Mark: 20, 20 years. What would happen? Well, for one thing, we would have enough of us that there would be opportunities for regional gatherings in a lot of places, you know, maybe two, three regional gatherings in Europe maybe one in Australia and so more opportunities for people to meet in person and You know, because that's really the gold standard of relating, right? I mean, it's wonderful that we have these tools to be able to communicate across distance, but there's nothing like being able to actually just sit down next to someone and have a conversation. I'm hoping for a lot more of that. Speaking of which, we have the Suntree Retreat coming up again in 2024, and we will soon start taking deposits to reserve space. Yucca: That is less than a year away. Mark: it looks like, yes, it's less than a year away. It's about 11 months away. And so we're working on what the content of all that's going to be. So that's locked in place. And now it's just a matter of, you know, figuring out the pricing on everything, and looks like the admission prices for, for the event and all the meals combined will be about 250. And then lodging. And lodging is as cheap as, and it can be more if you have a space in a cabin. Yucca: Mark, we're losing you into the robot. Mark: People should be able to do this event. How's that? Can you hear me now? Yucca: We can hear you now. You're frozen. Yes, now we can hear you. If you'll start again with people should be able to. Mark: Okay. Go to this event for less than 400 plus transportation. Yucca: Okay. Than 400 plus transportation. Mark: yes. Yeah, that, that's, I'm sure that that's going to be possible. In fact, it'll be... It's possible to go even less if you tent camp, so it's a good, good time to go tent camping. Tent camping only costs like 20 bucks for lodging for the whole three days. So, you know, if you set up your own tent or we can accommodate I think one RV Yucca: And that should be late summer, early fall weather wise, so that's a good time of year for it. Mark: Yes, yes, and, and unlikely to be, to have any rain. We actually got really lucky in May of 2022 because it snowed at La Forêt the week after we were there. Yucca: Wasn't it snowing several hours after we finally left? Mark: I don't know  Yucca: I know I was, as I was coming, I thought there was snow and then certainly as I was coming down, headed south down by the Rockies, it was raining, which was blessed because it was, we'd been having those horrible fires in New Mexico at the time and it was just raining the whole way Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: But I think that they were getting more rain than I was getting as I was driving down, or I was driving up, but down south. It's confusing. I think. Susan: yeah, Mark: Well, we have the big the big hall, Ponderosa. If it does, that isn't a problem, but the weather should be beautiful. I, I looked up the, the average weather in Colorado Springs that first weekend in September. I think the high average is 75 degrees or something. It's just perfect. So, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: should be really great. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: we're already talking about what all the content of things is going to be, and we'll put out a call for presentations and workshops in a couple of months, and before we know it, we'll be in Colorado Springs. It'll be, you know, with, with, with the gang. Yucca: Ball's rolling. Yep. Mark: Yeah, Susan: excited. I've already planned for it. So Yucca: Will the kiddo be coming? Mark: That's great. Susan: I think it's going to be all three of Mark: Yeah, is your hood Susan: they're not going to do all of the things, but Mark: There are beautiful places to go right around there. Garden of the Gods and Rocky Mountain National Park. Just gorgeous, gorgeous places to go. So if they like hiking in the outdoors there are lots of opportunities for them to enjoy that as well. Susan: yeah, and we might do, we might do tent Mark: Yucca, were you saying something? Yucca: oh, I was gonna say my, will at that time be five, almost six and eight year old will be joining me. Last time it could only be the, the older, but the, the youngest is, is excited for that rite of passage to get to go to, they call it the Ponderosa Pine, so, cause of the lodge, Mark: Huh. Nice. It's so great having her there. That was just wonderful. Yucca: Well, she'll be excited about the idea of more kiddos. I think there were other parents who had, who were there last time who were like, Oh, I should have brought mine. Right? But they didn't know that it was gonna, there were gonna be activities. So we'll have more activities for little people next time. So we'll have a little gang of them running around. Mark: Huh. Yeah, I think for some of the parents, because it was a first time event and they didn't know what to expect and, you know, pagan events can be pretty raucous sometimes, they kind of wanted Yucca: Yeah, we lost you again, Mark. You said they kind of wanted. Mark: to do, you know, reconnaissance first, go in and check out what this was going to be like. Can you hear me now? Yucca: Yes. We can hear you. Okay. So you were saying some parents, sometimes they can be a little ruckus y. Ruck that wasn't the word. Mark: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, pagan festivals can be, you know, kind of uproarious and sexy and, and, you know, lots of, you know, carousing, and I think some parents were kind of leery of that and wondered what the tone of this was going to be like, and, you know, after having been there and discovered that we were able to have a good time without things sliding over into inappropriate conversation. Boundaryless mess that that it's a fine place for their kids to come, and I, I really encourage parents to come. Tickets will be actually, I think we said that Attendance was free for those 10 years old and younger, and tickets are discounted for those 16 and younger, or under 16. So, yeah other than having to get a bed for them if they're, if you're not tent camping kids should be very affordable to bring, Yucca: Was there anything else that you'd like to talk about or share, Susan? Anything you think that people should know about you? Mark: anything you'd like to say to the community. Yucca: Yeah. Mm Susan: I guess I'd like to say, tell us what you want to see, because You know, I think you both have mentioned this before about the podcast, but it's true of the YouTube channel too, is there's only so much creativity, the same, and there's so much overlap with both of you being on the the YouTube media team as well, like, there's only so much creativity we all have, so please tell us what it is you want to know about, what you want to hear about, what kind of content You, you want to see so we can get that out there you know, I, I generated when we first, when first I first got involved with the YouTube channel, I generated this big old list of, oh, here's a bunch of ideas and now I don't know if any of them are in the comments. Not resonating with me, or at least I'm like, oh, I'm not the right person to talk about that particular topic, but I'm like, what am I, I'm supposed to write a video. I don't know what I want to talk about. I guess that's, this is why maybe some of the days, even though I'm the glue on, my things are a little bit late later than they're supposed to get to, to the right people. But yeah, let's, let us know what you want to hear about. I'm, I'm happy to I'm Write stuff or record stuff or be in front of people and but I don't know what it is people want to hear about so Tell us Mark: Yeah, yeah, I really echo that, because after four years of producing these, new topics can be challenging. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's, when we think of one, it's like, oh, oh, a new topic! We can do that! It's very exciting. It's a little easier in October, because we've got Ancestors and Death and Dying and Decomposition and Hallows and all those things. But for much of the rest of the year, we're... We could really use input on, you know, what kinds of things you'd like to hear about. Yucca: Especially like in July, like, hmm, what do we talk about? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Because this time of year, yeah, October, and then we're going into solstice coming up, and yeah, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: busy next few months. Mark: Well, Susan, thank you so much for joining us today. It is wonderful to have you on board and to have you be a part of the community. And Yucca: Thanks for all the cool ideas today, too. Susan: Thanks. Yucca: think about. Mark: Absolutely. Susan: I'm good at ideas for fun things and not so much the follow through, so. Yucca: Oh, that's not true! You make the follow through possible! Mark: Even if that were true, it's still a really important role. You know, being, being a creative person who comes up with cool ideas, that's really important. So, we need cool ideas. Susan: I'm hoping that, you know, eventually we're going to hit a critical mass of people in the community that somebody, you throw out an idea and somebody's going to grab it and just run, who, you know, has the skill set and. I hope. I guess that's another thing I want to tell people is if you feel like you want to contribute something, please do. Like, I just showed up one day and was like, hey, I can help with things and now I'm on the media team and now I'm on the council. So don't be scared. Mark: Absolutely. Yucca: Well, thank you so much, Susan. Susan: Thanks for having me. Mark: Yeah. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week, folks.    

Description:  In this episode, Susan shares her unique perspective on life challenges and how they can be occasions for transformation. Drawing from her own experiences, she provides insights and tools that can help others all over the globe to find peace in the face of adversity.   Shownotes:  When Susan took a chance and moved away from her hometown, she found that being grateful helped her heal from trauma. She became a successful producer and TV executive, but her marriage was hard and violent. Susan took charge of her life and rewrote her past by meditating, being patient, and looking at herself. She had a tough childhood and has utilized what she learned to help other people learn, grow, and become the best versions of themselves.   In this episode, you will learn the following: What was Susan's toxic relationship was like, and how did she recover from it? How did her chosen path become the most fulfilling and developmental experience of her life? How gratitude helped her to see her prior events in a more positive light. Connect with Susan Gold:  Susan Gold Website   Connect with Sabine Skvenberg:  https://www.instagram.com/sabinekvenberg/ Sabine on Facebook Sabine on Linkedin Sabine on YouTube BECOME Podpage ➤Are you looking for the finest online course platform to swiftly build and sell courses? Why not try Kajabi? All the tools of Kajabi make it easier for you to create online courses, podcasts, coaching, memberships, and more! Try the 30-day free trial and make the most out of it. And if you're just getting started and want to put your offer up for sale in three days or less, follow this link and apply to "MAKING IT HAPPEN." TRANSCRIPT   00:00:00 Sabine: Hello, my name is Sabine Skvenberg, founder and host of BECOME. The content will inspire you to reach your aspirations and become the best version of yourself. I feature interviews with successful individuals from various industries, delving into their personal and professional journeys and their strategies to achieve their goals. We have to become the person we are meant to be first so we can live the life we are destined to live. That means we must overcome challenges and work through difficult times to learn, grow, and become the new, more fabulous version of ourselves. I'm so glad that you're here. Let's get on this journey together.  00:00:54 Sabine: My guest today is the magical Susan Gold. Susan has navigated a ferociously challenging upbringing, facing ingrained, outdated, and patriarchal programming head on. As an adult, she has bravely moved forward to transform her traumatic experiences into opportunities for growth and personal transformation. In this episode, Susan shares her unique perspective on life changes and how they can be occasions for transformation. Drawing from her own experiences, she provides insights and tools that can help others all over the globe to find peace in the face of adversity. Through her work, Susan is on a mission to help people transform their lives and rise above the pain and trauma of their past. Join us as we delve into Susan's journey and discover how we too can learn to transform our traumatic experiences into opportunities for growth and personal transformation. 00:02:07 Sabine: Welcome, Susan. Where are you chiming in from and how are you today? 00:02:14 Susan: Sabine, thank you so much for having me. I am in the beautiful mountains of Montana, and I could almost walk to Canada. It's 4 miles to the border. 00:02:25 Sabine: Oh, wow. So it's probably pretty cold there right now, right? 00:02:30 Susan: Yeah, it's in the 30s. We've had a few patches of really frigid weather, but it's been pretty mild. 00:02:39 Sabine: When you say it's in the 30s, for me, it's freezing cold. As you know, I live in Florida, as you can see, our closing gives away where we live. Well, that's great. I really can't wait to dive into your story. I find it interesting that some people are defined by their story and their upbringing. And staying in these circumstances while others break and transform. And I have the feeling you fall into the second category. But before we go into the story, I read one of the quotes on your website and says, "Living the path of truth and authenticity is not for the weak hearted. It's one of ultimate freedom." What do you mean by that? 00:03:37 Susan: Well, for me, the easier, softer weight Sabine would be to hide under the covers. I would have never left my little hometown at 17 the morning after I graduated from high school. But I knew in my heart there was more and that I had to stand up and take that risk. And that's been a theme throughout my life. Not the easier, softer way, but definitely the most rewarding and the most evolutionary for my soul. 00:04:11 Sabine: I cannot agree more, because, quite frankly, through adversity and going, the more difficult path is when we grow. That's where the most growth happens. And you had quite a career in New York and LA. You were known for matching celebrities to brands. You were a TV and film producer. So tell us more about your first career. 00:04:40 Susan: Wow. Well, growing up in my family home, I used to watch Barbara Walters on my belly, on my beanbag in the basement. I was so chawned by this woman and wanted to be just like her. And I ended up going to New York City. That's the place that I really wanted to go. And I ended up being Barbara's exercise trainer. And one morning I knocked on her door at 07:00 AM and she knew immediately something had happened, something was wrong. And I didn't want to share that personal information with her. But she was an incredible interviewer, and she got it out of me. I was harassed in the workplace, and she volunteered to come to work that morning and confront my boss with me. 00:05:21 Sabine: Wow. 00:05:21 Susan: And I said, yeah, no problem. That's okay. I'm going to handle it. And I did confront that boss who promptly fired me. And rather than go back into another assistantship, I decided to launch my own town brokerage firm in New York City. I was 25, and I had not much money in the bank. I had gotten out of an abusive relationship. The gentleman held the purse strings, so to  speak, and I was under that illusion. But I decided to step up and take the risk. So I did. And my first deal was to knock on the factory door and convince Andy Warhol, the modern art master, to do a commercial for Pontiac. 00:06:08 Sabine: Oh, wow. That's amazing. But it's also interesting that you said that. Now, Barbara Walters recently passed away, and she was truly an amazing woman who got a lot out of the interview partners that she had and that you had that experience with her and she was able to help you. That is a beautiful memory I'm sure that you will treasure forever, and that also helped you move forward to your next career, so to speak, right? 00:06:45 Susan: Yes. She was really supportive of women, amazingly supportive of women. 00:06:50 Sabine: So how long did you stay in New York? 00:06:53 Susan: I was there about a decade, and I was very successful matching celebrities to brands, and that actually led me into television. Roger Ailes was running CNBC at the time, and he had his own talk network called America's Talking. And somehow they reached out to me and asked could I bring celebrities to his America's Talking Network? So I said, "Oh, sure. No problem." And of course, they weren't flocking. So one night, I grabbed the cameraman and we went to some charity red carpet event, and I stuck the mic in the celebrity spaces, interviewed them about the event and then had them look direct to the camera and say, I'm so and so. You're watching America's Talking, and it became this phenomenon, and we had all these celebrities running on the network, and it looked like an endorsement of America's Talking. So that caught Roger's attention, and he invited me to produce any show I wanted on the network and then invited me to help launch Fox News Channel. 00:08:00 Sabine: Oh, wow. That is quite a story. So what made you leave New York and move to LA? 0:08:11 Susan: So, opportunity, for one. But I really felt, Sabine, that I was becoming a caricature of myself. I had trouble really finding connection. I had a little cabin up in the catskills, and I would go Friday night and I wouldn't return to the city until Monday morning. And I just was living to get into nature, and my routine was very rigid. I had to go to the gym, I had to do certain things, and I was finding it harder to socialize. I couldn't make plans and keep them. So I just felt like my time was ticking down. And I got a phone call from a very dear friend who had gone out to LA to run a talk show, and she said, "I want you to come out here. I need you to bring celebrities to the table for the talk show." And I said yes immediately. And then I panicked. 00:09:11 Sabine: So why did you panic? 00:09:15 Susan: It was a huge shift. I mean, I had to envision myself in New York City since I was young. I mean, I was probably ten years old, and I knew I wanted to be there, and I felt comfortable there. I knew how to push the buttons, I knew the players, I had fairly good income, I had clients, and here I was going to new territory. But I also knew that I wasn't intuitively going to stay in New York City my entire life. And I felt like opportunity comes for a specific reason, and if you're strong enough, just take it. So I thought I was going to LA for my career, which did blossom, but really, I think I went to LA to meet one of my biggest gurus, who is my ex-husband. 00:10:01 Sabine: All right , that is an interesting combination. Your biggest guru, now ex husband. So tell us more about what that quote unquote, "guru" relationship was. What did it give you? 00:10:18 Susan: Well, I was since the second grade, and Billy Fritz attached at the hip to any kind of male attention. And friends used to say, you know, when I'm in adulthood, I'm so powerful, you're so powerful, you're so accomplished. But I never really felt that I always had to be in some kind of relationship or I just felt like I was going to be annihilated. I mean, it was so strong, and that was costing heavily, but I didn't quite realize it as I was going through it. And I met my ex-husband and thought I met the man of my dreams. I mean, he said the right things, he had the right look, he had the right career, all the material things, right? But I also felt like we connected as individuals, and we did. It just wasn't the connection that I was hoping for. Because ultimately what I discovered was he did seem like he was right out of the movies because he had a false construct and persona. And when the mask fell, it was incredibly painful. 00:11:37 Sabine: Wow. When the mask fell. 00:11:43 Sabine: Let me hop in here real quick to share something with you. Have you ever tried to build your own website, start a newsletter or build a course and charge for it? Have you ever wanted to make money online but are totally confused by all the different systems you need to have? That's why I use Kajabi. Kajabi is the most popular system for online marketers, coaches, top leaders and influencers. Kajabi helps online entrepreneurs take off. Over hundred thousands of us use Kajabi and have made over $4 billion. Why not be part of it? The best thing is you don't have to figure out tons of systems or crazy technology to start your online business. Kajabi helps you do all of that and it's all on one platform. That's why I use it. It makes my life so much easier and I can even earn money while I'm sleeping. You can build your web pages, blogs and membership sites. You can create offers, check out pages and collect money. You can host your videos. You can start your newsletter list, capture emails, start your marketing funnels all in one place. It makes it fun and easy with awesome tutorials and support. Since I've joined Kajabi from the beginning, I have a special affiliate link that I would like to share with you. A 30-day free trial. So nothing to lose, but everything to gain. Just go to my link that's in the show notes sabinekavenberg.com/resources, and we will redirect you to the free trial page. And if you are just starting out and want to get your offer out for sale in just three days, let me help you do that. Visit my web page, by the way, that I build on Kajabi and apply to "MAKING IT HAPPEN." So now let's get back to the show. 00:13:55 Sabine: I think a lot of people can relate to that, that sometimes we are blinded by an outer appearance and by quote unquote "acting." Someone acts a certain way, but then when we get to know them and we get under the cover so to speak, and reveal the core, then we see other things, and it can be even painful, physically or mentally. So I hear you. Wow. But good for you that you made that transition out of that relationship so that you felt better after all, I suppose, right? 00:14:39 Susan: Well, it was the journey to begin. I did not want my family to break up. At that time, I had a son. We had a son together. I had purchased a home for our family, just like a coveted jewel in Southern California. I didn't want my lifestyle to change, and I didn't want to be abandoned by my husband. So I did everything I could to keep our marriage together. And finally he just crossed his arms and his eyes went into those cold slits, and he said, "I'm hiring an attorney and I'm filing for divorce." And that was the universe doing for me what I could not do for myself because I was going to hang on to the nail and I was going to make this work. I didn't want a broken home for my son, but I felt the toll that it was taking on everyone, and we all had to step up and face it, and it was difficult.  00:15:43 Susan: My ex husband did not leave our family home. He remained in the master bedroom, and I was in a partial conversion in the garage, on a mattress, on the floor, in a home that I purchased and maintained for our family. And that is the metaphor for the relationship and what I was allowing myself to carry and the demonstration that I was allowing for my son. So I really had to face it. And it took that kind of billboard falling on my head for me to wake up to the circumstance. 00:16:25 Sabine: Yeah. It's so beautiful how you said that the universe is giving us the clues. The universe is giving us the two by fours right onto our heads to wake up, to realize, look, holding onto that comfort, not even if it's comfort, but that comfort zone, that zone that we know because we are afraid and fear stepping in because we don't know what's on the other side. And for so many people, it's holding them back. But how did you get over that whole thing? When did you realize? Because what I sense here is that you really had to get through that stage where you just had to be still, to transform, to finally get those wings like the butterfly like the symbol of my podcast.  00:17:26 Susan: Which is so beautiful, Sabine, and I just want to compliment you for getting this messaging out and the theme of your podcast because it has great meaning for so many of us, especially in these times today. So thank you from the bottom of my heart, I want to say that that lesson probably was one of the biggest of lifetimes, and standing up to it felt absolutely monumental. And it took every tool I had in my kit to go through that experience. I was an endurance athlete. I needed that type of training that I had to get through this. I was a longtime meditator. I learned how to sit in silence for hours at a time and not make eye contact, and that's what I needed to do to get through this. When you divorce someone you think may be a narcissist, there can be no contact. They just loop you back in. They know how to push the buttons, and it's very deceiving. And I had to be stealing to get through this and keep no contact within our home with the man I had loved and cherished.  00:18:51 Susan: And that's what I held for a year until the agreement was reached. I wrote him his six figure check and he left and went right on to the next candidate, because that's typical. That's the behavior. And the more I wanted to make him accountable, the more I wanted him to stand up, the more that would backfire right on me. I just had to use that as a lesson to who he really was and what I was allowing. And it was a powerful lesson, and one, I am grateful. 00:19:32 Sabine: That says a lot that you said, I am so grateful for this lesson. A lot of people are bitter or become bitter and just shut off and don't see this as a jumping board to their next greater adventures or turning into their next best self. And so I like what you said, being grateful for this lesson. And if anybody can learn something, be grateful for what you have right now. Be grateful to have the air in your lungs, right? And with gratitude, that helps us take our focus away from the things that hurt, because our mind can only focus on one thing at a time, our conscious mind. And if we finding ourselves in a dire situation or feel pity for ourselves, shift to gratitude. Be grateful for what you have right now and be grateful for the things, the beautiful, wonderful things to come. So thanks for sharing that and sharing your lesson.  00:120:45 Sabine: Now, you wrote a book, or let me put it this way, yes, you wrote a book, but it's not yet released. It will be released on March 21st. And I'm so excited to share this news with my listeners because I can only imagine how beautiful this book is going to be. The title of the book is Toxic Family: Transforming Childhood Trauma into Adult Freedom. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book? 00:21:20 Susan: Sure, I'm happy to. It was a long process. I think I was told in 2007 for the first time by an Irish seer that I had a book to write, and I heard it repeatedly, but I didn't want to take the time or the theme that it takes, the self examination, certainly in memoir. But finally it became obvious that it was time, and it was an incredible exercise to sit down and string it all together and see with clarity how each piece has specific meaning for the evolution of who I am becoming here as a human being on the Earth. And even though I had been told that I had a powerful story, I didn't really believe it. I thought it was sort of milk toast, like McDonald's, Grade A. Everybody's got the same story. But now that it's down on paper, I see that's not true and that I do have a lot to share. And I hope that people can take from my experience and garner their own power and more importantly, their own self love. 00:22:33 Sabine: Oh, that is beautiful. And what you said is so true. We always think my story doesn't count. Who am I to share my message? But I say, who are you not? And everybody has a unique story. That's what I help my clients with. I have a program called the Celebrity Signature Message, and I help my clients to really discover that we all are celebrities. You know, we don't have to be in front of a TV camera to be a celebrity. We all have that celebrity status, meaning the uniqueness, the very important person that you are for another person. So I like what you said that. Now saying or seeing the title of your book was that are you exposing any of your family members or any traumatic experience that you have doing this publicly? I mean, I know if you talk to a psychiatrist or whatnot. It's a different story. But you literally shouting it out to the world through your book. 00:23:53 Susan: So here's how I feel about it, Sabine, and I've had that question come my way quite a bit. I feel like we need to be brave. We need to stand up and we need to talk about our truth. And it's not so shameful. So many people have had similar experiences, but we keep it all tucked in, especially in the corporate system that's just broken. So I have to say, I've been a bit of a trailblazer not knowing it. And I want to say that I love my family. I have deep respect for the roles my parents played. They have helped me so much. And when people read the book, they're going to wonder about that statement that I just made. How can you make that statement after what you've experienced? But I see it now with tremendous love for all of the players and all of the experience, just like I see my ex- husband as a loving guru.  00:25:03 Susan: These lessons, if I'm willing to look at the underbelly and really explore that mossy, dirty, stale energy under there, if I can just air it out and view it from the perspective of heaven rather than 3D Earth. There's so many gifts and so much opportunity. So I really am appreciative of my family. And I know we shared a little bit before we started our conversation. Toxic Family was not my initial title. My initial title was Magical Illumination, because that's what it's been for me. It's been such a gift to really thread this through. But honestly, we have a Toxic Family and toxic lineage. It was hurt and abused children, raising hurt and abused children and the truth needs to come out. 00:26:09 Sabine: I cannot agree more and I applaud you for doing this. As you said, many people are too afraid to talk about it and a lot of things are being pushed under the rug. And if we keep doing it, we cannot heal, cannot change. But if we put it out into the open, then other people feel an invitation of hey, I can do this, too. I can say it out loud, let the world know what's going on. Only when we are aware of our circumstances and what's going on can we change. If we are not aware, we're just going to stay in that old pattern that we so need to break. Now, if someone would like to get in touch with you, maybe they need some counseling. How can they do that? 00:27:13 Susan: Well, thanks for asking. I invite anybody to go to susangold.us. That's susangold.us and get on my email list. And you can also send me an email if you like, directly at info@susangold.us. And I would love to offer anyone that would like a 15-minute free conversation with me to see how we might be able to help each other. 00:27:44 Sabine: That is so gracious of you. Thank you so much, Susan. You are such a beautiful soul and I see this book going out  into this world, changing so many lives, touching so many lives. Thank you for this beautiful conversation and the advice that you shared with us today. 00:28:06 Susan: Thank you, Sabine. 00:28:09 Sabine: That was my interview and if you enjoyed it, give us a five star review, leave a comment and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening until I see you again. Always remember, serve from the heart, follow your passion and live the life you imagine.  

Joining Carol Pankow in the studio today are Cody Dixon, Director of Operations SARAWorks, and Susan Baker, Program Coordinator II, Alaska VR. SARA provides a solution to VR programs with a client engagement and communications system that automatically gathers needed information at the right time from consumers and providers without staff intervention. SARA uses artificial intelligence (AI) and natural language processing and complements CMS functionality. Alaska VR has been an early adapter from SARA's first introduction. Susan tells us how Alaska VR utilizes SARA daily, and Cody brings us up to date with all the latest integrations and new states coming on board with SARA.   Listen Here   Full Transcript   SARA: Technology Solutions States Have Proven to Work -Alaska VR and SARA   {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are Cody Dixon, Director of Operations, SARAWorks, and Susan Baker, Program Coordinator II, Alaska VR. Thanks for joining me today, you guys. So, Cody, how are things going in the world of SARA?   Cody: Good. We've been extremely busy. We've got a number of new states that are coming on board that we're working with and a number of new features that we're rolling out. So really excited to be here with you today.   Carol: Glad to hear that. So, Susan, how are things going for you in Alaska?   Susan: Well, it's pretty good up here in sunny Alaska. Just kidding. It's about 15 degrees. We still love SARA. We're actually getting an upgrade this weekend that we're really looking forward to. Things are going great.   Carol: Awesome to hear that. Well, I'm in Minnesota, so I can empathize with the Alaska climate. Had some interesting winter weather this year for sure. So for some of our listeners, you may remember back to the days of WINTAC and a special project that was done to bring SARA to Voc Rehab, and the original idea was to provide a solution to VR programs that used this new kind of client engagement and communication system that automatically gathered needed information at the right time from consumers and providers without staff intervention. SARA uses artificial intelligence or AI and natural language processing and is complementary to a case management functionality. So if you fast forward seven years, SARA's really undergone some very cool changes and is once again part of a pilot program within our VRTAC for Quality Management. And I'm also really excited about hearing from a state that was at the forefront of using this and has remained a continued champion years later. So let's dig in. So, Cody, I'm going to turn to you first. Can you tell our listeners about yourself and what you do at SARA and a little more about your products?   Cody: Yes, absolutely. So I'm the director of operations for SARAWorks, and we are an extremely small team. We are growing. But essentially, historically, I've been responsible for all of our new customer implementations doing the training, the configuration of SARA, making sure that SARA is doing what it's supposed to do for the agency, and then of course, keeping track of our support staff for our wonderful service that we provide, working with our development team as well. So just kind of making sure that all the day to day stuff is running as it should. We've got our primary product, which is SARA, and SARA is our application for counselors and case managers. And it's used typically to stay in contact with clients or consumers that are receiving services under the idea that we're really trying to use SARA as a communication hub with the idea to bridge that connection gap in human services. We believe that the good technology can be used and is going to be essential for creating human connection so that people don't fall through the cracks. And that's kind of where SARA comes in.   Carol: Yeah, like that, that you use that term communication hub. That sums it up really well. So Susan, can you give our listeners a little more information about yourself? What's your role in Alaska? How many counselors do you have and the number of customers that you all serve?   Susan: Sure. I am a Jill of all trades up there for in Alaska, a program coordinator. So really what that means is responsible for our quality assurance, our program reporting, our data requirements, our policies and procedures. And I'm also in charge of our case management system, our SARA communication system, our SharePoint system. So there's quite a bit of an IT aspect software support that comes out of my role as well. We are, you know, a big state geographically, but a small state population wise. We always like to remind Texas of that, but we only have about 25 counselors spread out through the state, though. But that's over you know, we're talking potentially 2500, 3000 miles apart in some places. And right now, our open caseload right now is around 1000 - 1500. Yeah, we're small, but mighty.   Carol: Wow. That puts some perspective. I didn't realize you had 25 counselors across that expansive Alaska. So do folks have to, like, fly into places? Because I know some of your areas are so remote, how do they get to see certain customers?   Susan: Absolutely. Yes. We have a few counselors that are dedicated to serving our rural populations, flying into hubs like Barrow, Ketchikan, Pretty amazing. It's a kind of a unique situation. They're flying in for about a week, trying to get as many informational referrals out there, then to get as many applications as they can going. And if there are open cases in that area or village, they're trying to work them as well. We do a lot with SARA helping us keep in touch when we're not in the area.   Carol: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That gives such an interesting perspective. So, Cody, I understand SARA's gone through some changes and can you tell us what happened with the company and like where you live right now, it's different.   Cody: Yeah, definitely. So back in September, SARA was acquired the company itself, the Career Index Corporation, the founders of SARA, was acquired by a company called Radical Health, which is a company that acquires software companies that are in the human services space and put together a new division called Radical Apps that SARA was the first product to fall into. And so under radical apps we have SARAWorks, which is how we've rebranded our company. So for some of our folks out there that recognize TCI or the Career Index we are now, SARAworks with our product, SARA. And under Radical, we are working to see how we can grow SARA's reach and help make an impact in other markets and other industries. Radical Health currently works with software companies that are in food banks and community food pantries and things like that, as well as foster care management, behavioral health and homeless management as well. So a couple of other areas that we feel that SARA could really make an impact. And as I mentioned earlier, we've been an extremely small team and so we didn't necessarily have the resources in place to make that happen and continue to see our vision grow. But with the help of Radical, we've got a roadmap to making that happen. And really just overall taking this concept of wanting to foster that connection in human services and helping clients feel like they're more than just a case ID and giving them that voice, using SARA to be able to maintain that connection with their agency and the service workers that are helping them.   Carol: Well, Cody, I remember back to my days in Minnesota and we were trying to get your product and there were definitely some challenges with IT resources. And I understand you have a new venture that eases the burden on IT resources. What is that all about?   Cody: Yeah, absolutely. We actually have a couple of things that we're working on in that regard. First of which was a strategic partnership that we entered into with Alliance Enterprises for their Aware case management solution. And so we are working with them at the moment on creating a way to interface the two systems together that eliminates the need for a state agency's IT department to really be involved. Historically, we've relied upon the state agency to have to install a Windows service and maintain that service on a state server and things like that in order to get data to go back and forth between SARA and the system of record. So what we're working on with Alliance is to, number one, have that connection, bypass the need for the state agency to be involved. And then we're also working on a new API that will be more of a plug and play option for other agencies that might not utilize, Aware, maybe have something that's homegrown or one of the other larger vendors. So it's something that I'm really excited for. We are rolling into some testing right now and should have that solution rolled out by the end of quarter two.   Carol: Wow, that's pretty cool. That's a big deal. I think that'll be a game changer for folks. I know we have a lot of people that are with Alliance, but there are a lot of folks that are not probably half the country is not. It's probably about a half and a half deal. So having that option for other folks as well, I think that is definitely going to be of interest to our listeners. I personally love your whole communication aspect of this and you talked about that communication hub. Can you just explain that a little more like all the things that can go into that?   Cody: Yeah, absolutely. So we you know, we call SARA the communication hub and we continuously try to make improvements and enhancements and bring new features so that, you know, if you think of a way to stay in contact and connect with a client electronically, we want SARA to kind of be your go to source. So SARA has two components. There's an automated side of SARA, and then there's some manual tools that counselors and case managers can use to try and stay in contact. On the automated side of things, we actually configure SARA to typically follow a workflow of the process of the agency mirroring in SARA, what we call tracks, which are the case statuses to the system of record. And we train SARA to understand when clients need to be contacted, what it's regarding, and if there's any data or information that needs to be obtained from that individual in order to successfully move them on to the next case status. And with that, SARA utilizes email and text messaging to stay in contact, reach out and conduct interviews with the clients, find out how they're doing, and then, just like any good assistant would, generate alerts that go back to those counselors and case managers to inform them of what's going on with their client, as well as giving them information so they can make an informed decision of what action to take next. Do I step in and now offer that direct client engagement? And that's where those manual tools come in. We've also got the options for staff to be able to compose emails and compose text messages directly from the SARA application. So from the comfort of their keyboard, they can be sending out messages. They don't have to have their own cell phone or a state agency issued cell phone. They can send out those messages directly through SARA. And then over time, they also start utilizing SARA for sending out emails. And the reason to do that is that everything that SARA does is going to automatically create case notes. So no longer does a counselor have to send out an email in Outlook or their provider of choice and then go back into their system of record and leave a case note about the email they just sent. They just send it off in. SARA It creates that case note. That case note goes from SARA back over to the system of record. So you can imagine the amount of time that is saved over time as staff start utilizing those features. Additionally, we have a document management center that we're actually rolling out this week that includes things like electronic signature. We've got an Outlook calendar integration. SARA's really good at scheduling appointments and allowing opportunities for clients to reschedule appointments based upon counselor availability. And so we can connect with an Outlook calendar so that both the SARA calendar and the outlook calendar are in sync. And SARA truly knows, you know, when that counselor is available for appointments to be scheduled and rescheduled. And then we also have something that really came in handy during the beginning phases of the pandemic when agencies started working remotely but still trying to provide services. And that is a feature that we call ODIN, which is our on demand interview network, and it is a HIPAA compliant tele counseling platform so that counselors can conduct tele counseling sessions with up to nine participants at a time and providing them an opportunity to take case notes throughout that session that are only visible to them. And then at the end of the session, they click a button to save all those case notes. And there's one case note that goes into SARA that kind of documents what that session was regarding who the participants were that attended. And then all of the case notes that the counselor created. And then, of course, those case notes go back over to the system of record. So very cool stuff that we're that we're doing here at SARAWorks.   Carol: Yeah it sounds super exciting. I was sitting in my head thinking, you know, kind of ticking the boxes about how much time you would save with a number of those items. That would be pretty amazing. So, Susan, you have been around since the beginning of SARA. I remember you were part of the pilot states up in Alaska. And I talked actually to the Alaska team. I bet it was maybe, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago when we were all in Oklahoma at a PEQA conference. And I wanted to find out, like, how did you like it, what was going well? And I know that you all had struggled with some upfront kind of the communication and the implementation of the product. So what are some of the lessons you have learned along the way as you've implemented this?   Susan: Yeah, sure. It's one of the questions I get from many states that reach out to me, and I bet we could have a whole separate podcast about lessons learned. But I do want to give a quick shout out to the Alaska team during that implementation time. It was exciting because we were helping build this product better, you know, like there were a handful of states that were just throwing more feedback back at Cody, Hey, let's try this. Hey, let's try this. And it's really cool to be a part of a product from the beginning and to say that Alaska VR agency was one of the agencies that helped kind of, you know, point it towards a really cool direction. Although I know Cody was always brainstorming, so don't want to take that away from him. But a quick shout out to Alaska VR for that. Hindsight's having stronger procedures and understanding your staff's capability in technology. Now, it's easy. Don't get me wrong, I love this product. I can't say enough about it. However, we do have to consider who we're serving and who our workforce is. So in hindsight, I wish I had prepared better procedures for them because it was scary at first. You know, change is hard. That would be the first one that I could go into. I often found myself saying, Well, what would you normally do when you get a message? And it was also during a time where we were just still kind of, you know, feeling it out. So if I had come on with SARA outside of that pilot world, I would have prepped with stronger instructions, if you will.   Carol: Sure, that makes some sense. I get that. So how are you using SARA today? Because Cody just talked about all these cool new things, like are you guys implementing some of that or. I know some things are rolling out shortly, but how are you? Yeah, how are you using it today?   Susan: Oh, our staff still rocks it. They're making appointments daily. I mean, how often we would get stood up pre-SARA to now is just so ridiculously less. I mean to have that reminder texts come in and remind the client that they have an appointment is just golden. We're kind of working with our IT to turn on that calendar integration. It's in progress, I'll say. But they would absolutely love that. That's kind of out of their hands at the moment. They are in it every day. New employees come in, we have training and it's a whole new feel about like people understand that the phone is dead. Mean, it's a little dramatic, you know, unless you're calling your doctor's office or your parents or family members or whatnot. But outside of that, I'm getting you know, I just got a reminder text from a chiropractor appointment. I have a couple of days, you know, the hair appointment that's around the corner. I mean, this is the age that we live in in terms of like helping us be where we need to be in one example. But on the other end, like, oh yeah, like I have this connection. I'm doing something with this place. And our clients, our clients really love it. You're going to have any type of survey you send out, you never know what kind of feedback you're going to get. But overwhelmingly, our clients enjoyed hearing like, okay, I've got something here, I've got a connection. So staff and clients do enjoy the product.   Carol: That's awesome to hear. I wondered about that, how your staff and clients were responding to that. So that is terrific. Well, Cody, I understand you also have some exciting new things happening. What are you able to say? The new states that are being rolled out, you talked about you have a number of them. I don't know if you're able to disclose or not, but sometimes folks love to hear like, who are all the people I can talk to about that are using this product?   Cody: Yeah, absolutely. One of our states we're working with right now is New Hampshire. They're actually working with us in conjunction with Alliance with the Aware Integration. And I think most of the customers or potential customers that we have at some point find their way to Susan and kind of lean on some of her expertise, as you know, with what Alaska has learned. And so we really value having Susan available to talk to a lot of these customers. Additionally, we are in the midst of rolling out Texas, so TWC, they are going through training with their statewide rollout right now that we hope to have finished in April. That's been a really exciting project for us, learning a lot along the way in terms of some additional areas that SARA might be able to help with down the road with different surveys and working with businesses and other employer vendors and things like that. So that's been exciting. And then we've got South Dakota and Maryland that are also coming up as well.   Carol: Wow, that's very cool. You know, I was just thinking about all the complexities of these different states. You know, Texas is ginormous and they're also ginormous as far as staff and clients, whereas Alaska is ginormous but maybe has a smaller population of people. But how this application works across anybody and thinking about a lot of our states that may be smaller, but they have a lot of rural components. I think that's very interesting because it fits all the different sizes for sure. Now we have, SARA included, just for full disclosure, as a special project within the VRTAC for quality management. Can you talk about that just for a minute, Cody, what that's all about?   Cody: Yes, absolutely. So the SARA portion of that project has actually allocated 220 SARA licenses, and that's how we market. SARA as a SaaS company is a subscription model and we've got 220 licenses that we're looking to disperse over 2 to 3 states that right now we are in the process of providing demonstrations, you know, working with business analysts and ITdepartments to determine what states might be a good fit to take on a SARA pilot. So that's very exciting. And we're hoping to have the states finalized here in the next month or two so that we can get rolling on those new SARA pilots.   Carol: Oh, that's cool. That's really cool. So, Susan, what advice would you give to new states that are either just getting started with the system or they're considering using this as a communication solution for them?   Susan: Well, it's funny because I just got a follow up email from Maryland this morning, Cody, because everyone does seem to find their way to me, and I love that because it's a conversation I can have with them that talks about, again, more of those lessons learned. Knowing your staff, knowing your population you serve, understanding who is it that is going to be your champions, What is your management structure? And start small. SARA In terms of Cody mentioned, there are two sides of SARA and there are two very different sides. I call them, you know, the automated side and the direct side, the direct side being the human, you know, shouting out those texts on the fly or hey, hey, you know, come get your bus pass, you know, things like that. You know, the quick human aspect. And then you have the automated side, which is kind of awesome because you'll find information that you had no idea was happening or out there. I've heard scenarios where SARA finds out the client's employed and we're like, Wait, what? So it's kind of great to catch up on that. And I think what people at least to have committed in your first step is you're looking and you're trying to figure out what you want that awesome automated side to do for you and is to start small. Don't try and have an awesome long conversation with the SARA system because it's cool that she can do that. And I apologize. I have been trying not to give pronouns to SARA, but after seven years just she has just come out of my mouth occasionally, but start small and include your counselors include your counselors include your counselors. They are the ones who are going to need to be your champions. Because as you're starting off with this system, you want that participant to engage with it. And if you're not presenting that information from a comfortable standpoint, meaning your assistant staff or your counselor staff who are first talking about SARA in maybe an intake appointment or some, you know, the first opportunity to speak about the system, you have to prepare your staff to be able to talk someone through that. That was something I didn't quite hit. Let's just say that was a swing and a miss, as that one was. So yeah, that's all I can think of at the moment. Really include your staff what you, meaning you know you at the quality or implementation level think might be really cool, may not be really cool. It's something you can get to I think like I'm on version four of what is known as the rules for SARA, meaning what the robotic side will have to say in a conversation. And the first time I did it was just sort of, I don't know, let's try this. And then then I got to realize, no, I got a few more revisions. So start small. Include your staff and it is pretty awesome.   Carol: I am really glad you said that. Include your staff because I remember because I talked to Kentucky and it was, I believe Nevada and then the Alaska folks and you all three had that similar experience where I think everybody was like, Woo, this is a great new thing. This is super exciting. Everybody's going to love it. Well, not everybody just loved it right off the get go because they didn't understand it and they hadn't been included in all the conversations. And I can see that happening. I would have that tendency to I'd be like, Woo, this is super exciting. We're going to do this really fun thing. And then you go, Oh my gosh, we got to get everybody on board with that. So I had heard that back in the day too, that to definitely talk with the counselors because you have to get them used to this idea because while it will help them, at first they're thinking, what? What on earth? Because don't you have to develop Susan some scripts or you know, like AI doesn't know what to exactly say. You do have to program that, correct?   Susan: That is correct, yes. You do want to prompt a path for certain questions that you ask. And what I learned over the years is and this I might want to say that, you know, this is perhaps unique to the VR world because SARA is applicable in other worlds outside of VR, right? So when we're thinking about the population that VR serves, we want to maybe make our questions to the point and as short as possible. You know, I'm thinking about keeping it at a grade level that is appropriate. Whereas if you're out maybe outside and you're dealing with a different population and then there's this ability to like, you could do so many things with it, you know, as long as you have that engaged person on the other end who's answering, I mean, you can ask and get so much information out of a text message. It is amazing. But what I learned just from knowing my client base is that less is more. I went to more specific questions. And if something didn't work out with that response, I just sort of kind of turn it back and say, okay, we're going to get with you. You know, like, let's not try and text anymore. Let's actually try and, you know, let's connect. But we wouldn't know or we wouldn't have that ability to say, Hey, let's connect if SARA hadn't started the conversation.   Carol: Right, yeah, no, I get that. I think that's just awesome advice. So, Susan, I think you were also the one I had heard that created this idea of having a SARA Summit quarterly with all the users. Can you tell me a little bit about that?   Susan: Yeah, sure. You know, I've been a customer of software and implementing software for over 20 years, and there's been, you know, a handful of vendors that, you know, really get that extra step, which is you got to embrace your customer and let them have perhaps a ground to just grumble and celebrate. But, you know, it comes to having a bit of a united front around the user, if you will, talking with other users of the company. How do you have this program or how is SARA doing that? You know, I feel like that is the next step that I think SARAworks is going towards and I'm so happy to help with if it comes to fruition because it is so cool as a person who is sometimes at least up in Alaska, I know my team, you know, we're trudging through something and we're, you know, trying to figure out if that's the setting that we want. And then all of a sudden, you know, I'm on a national call with like 50 other states that use this product. And we've got this like great conversation going and people are helping other people and people are like, Oh, yeah, heads up. This doesn't work. I mean, it's just a pool for knowledge. And I think that's a good step to move forward with SARAworks too.   Carol: Yeah, I think that'd be really smart because you look at all these new states coming on board and the one thing I've always loved about VR is how giving people are I mean, everybody wants to help other people out, and I love that. It isn't like, Oh, I know this and we created that and we're not going to help you. Everybody's like, Here, have it. You know, this is how we're doing it. So that is pretty cool.   Susan: Yeah, totally.   Carol: So, Susan, what is the number one thing you'd want people to take away from this conversation today? Like our listeners, What would be the number one thing you want them to take away?   Susan: Well, I struggled with this one when you sent this out, because I almost have two. My number one and I tell this to every state that is inquiring with me about SARA and it's kind of geeky. It's not flashy. It's the quality management side of me that's going to speak out for a minute. And it's the fact that we're required to check in with our clients a year after exit actually, you know, second, fourth quarter after exit. This is a federal requirement. And the thought of having our counselors manage what happens a year later after they close the client was, I can't I have no idea how other states are doing this. I have an automatic system that does it and I don't have to even think about it. And it's the most beautiful thing ever, done. I mean, I don't know what else to say. Like it's an entire data element of compliance that I barely even have to think about. It's beautiful. Thank you, Cody.   Carol: It makes me think of, like, boom, mic drop. That's the end.   Susan: And guess my number two is that there's a reason this started seven years ago, and it had to do with we need to communicate more with the individuals that we serve. I see it in case reviews that I do. And this is the tool. There's my other mic drop. They're out there, they're listening. You got to do it.   Carol: Absolutely. And you look at now the third thing that is rolling across the nation is really there are no staff. And so we need to keep in communication. We have less people to do so. So we've got to leverage other things to make that happen so that can continue to live into its mission. And we're trying to get people into competitive, integrated employment. And to do that, we need to be in contact with them.   Susan: Exactly.   Carol: And keep moving through that case. Absolutely.   Susan: Well, and I think just to add to it, it's important that at least from our standpoint, like this is not counseling. This doesn't count as a contact. We have trained our staff to say, SARA is that icebreaker and it helps you. Yes, keep in touch. But it by no means substitutes the actual counseling guidance that is required. You actually speaking with the client, not through text messaging, not through email. If anyone was listening thinking, well, are they counting that? No, not counting that as a contact at all. It just helps get in contact if need be.   Carol: Right. Well, and it helps to smooth out those contacts you need as you're chasing for things, you're chasing for a transcript, you're trying to chase people down for certain stuff. Those items, those kind of more busy calls that you have to do and all of that, it can help completely in that area. And like you said, the year after closure, like follow it up with people because that's tough to keep track of all of that.   Susan: Yeah., and I think the second day we turned on SARA, staff was saying, oh my gosh, I was about to close this client. I haven't heard from him. And I mean, it works, you know, it really does. And the fact that it keeps in touch with your clients and it's making you compliant with one of the most, like, strangely weird ways to track something a year later. God bless you, Cody. Right on.   Carol: So, Cody, what is the number one thing you'd like people to take away from this conversation today?   Cody: Well, Susan did a great job expressing it. You know, really, it's the fact that, like you mentioned, we're losing resources in terms of the number of staff, while the number of folks receiving services and needing services are increasing. So if, you know, agencies are looking for a digital assistant software that allows case managers and counselors to shift their focus, not make less work, not take things away, but really shift their focus from the administration to client outcomes by automating some of their communication and compliance. That's. SARA.   Carol: That's awesome. So, Cody, how can people get in contact with you for more information?   Cody: The best way is to go to our website. That's SARAWorks.com and you can request a demonstration and that comes directly to me. I can also be reached via email. Cody.Dixon, That's D i x o n, at SARAWorks.com.   Carol: Thank you. And Susan, I'm sure they're going to be people that are going to want to reach out to you as well and listen to your sparkling story. I love it. You have a lot of high energy, which is great. So how could folks best get in contact with you?   Susan: I would say my email would be the best way to go. Susan.Baker, b a k e r, @alaska.gov.   Carol: Well, I sure appreciate you both being on today. I think this was an important conversation to have. I'm super excited to hear about all the upgrades and the ways that SARAWorks has improved and that Alaska State that's been in it from the beginning is still using this product. So good for you guys. I hope you have a great day. Thanks much.   Susan: Thanks for having me, Carol.   Cody: Thank you, Carol. Thank you, Susan.   Susan: Yep, Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!  

If you want to read the transcript, check it out below:SusanToday is such an exciting day for two reasons. Number one, I am recording our first live edition or episode of the Radiant Soul Sister podcast. In addition, I have a guest that you are going to love. My dear friend Lisa Clapp, also the founder of Cookin', Cuttin' Up and Ceeping It Reall is joining me here today. Excited! Yes, I'm so, so glad to have you today. Thank you so much, Lisa, I have to tell our listeners how we met because it's quite comical.Lisa Definitely. Yeah. Tell it all.Susan Are we sure? So Lisa and I are both farmers wives and our husbands were at a meeting. And the wives had been brought along with them. And it was an evening meeting. We happen to meet in a hotel room, but not just in the hotel room.The bathtub was the core, right? One of the farmers had taken the bathtub, filled it with ice and filled it with all kinds of beer and wine, whatever. And that is where we met. We were in the bathroom, reaching into the bathtub to grab our cold beverage of choice. Exactly. So that is how we met and ever since then, we have always enjoyed running into each other at different farmers events. And then as Lisa was building Cookin', Cuttin' Up and Ceeping It Real, I got to know her. And as I was building Huntsboro Hemp, she has also used those products and we've just continued to nourish our relationship there. So, listeners join in today and just glean whatever good from this episode of the Radiant Soul Sisters. As I mentioned, Lisa has built Cookin', Cuttin' Up and Ceeping It Real, which is her brand. She has a Facebook page that has over 320,000 followers.LisaI don't even know how it happened.Susan One listener at a time, one follower at a time. But listeners you heard me correctly. Her Facebook page has over 320,000 followers. They love her stories. They love her cooking. She just cooks from her heart and from what she serves a farm family.Lisa Exactly right, exactly.Susan  So Lisa, tell us a little bit about building Cookin', Cuttin' Up and Ceeping It Real.LisaWell it happened when my first son went to college. I was an empty nester for the first time and I love my kids and their friends. And they were always in and out of the kitchen. And so it kind of kept me abreast of what was going on with everybody. And boys galore because I have two boys. And I missed that. So I started sharing on my Facebook page, just a few recipes here and there. People really liked it. So I had another teenager that had been in and out of the house. And she actually helped me set up a page. And both of my boys were very supportive like mom, you should do that. You know. So that's how it happened, just coincidentally.Susan Well, it started out coincidentally. And then I know you have put a lot of time and a lot of energy. Here's what I know from being a follower of Cookin', Cuttin' Up and Ceeping It Real, is that the name describes it. The name describes, really can help you envision who Lisa is. When she's in the kitchen she sometimes is in there in her t shirt and pajamas, doing what she does. That she's cooking and she's cooking for herself, she's cooking for her family and she's cooking for others. Oftentimes. The other thing Lisa does well on her page is she shares about her faith. She's really real about that. There's no pretension there. So, I believe in people looking for “realness.” And I say that in air quotes or quotes or Lisa, in people looking for “realness,” people looking for someone that can relate to that is definitely who you are.LisaIt is, I don't consider myself to be any better than anyone else. And this page has given me such a great outlet of connection with people and creativity. And my viewers talk back and forth to

Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining Carol Pankow in the studio today is Susan Pugh, Deputy Director of the Bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation with the Opportunities for Ohioans with Disabilities. Susan has worked within the agency in a variety of capacities including, VR Counselor, Assistant Area Manager, and Assistant Deputy Director.   In this episode, Susan discusses Ohio's rapid engagement process and the Lean approach that has reduced onboarding time and ushered in more customers. Susan and Carol cover a lot of the initiatives that Ohio has implemented to enable them to speed up the process so that customers are trained and employed as soon as possible.   Listen Here   Full Transcript   VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Get in and Get er' Done! How Ohio Makes VR Work for Customers!   {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager, Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Susan Pugh, Deputy Director of the Bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation in the agency called Opportunities for Ohioans with Disabilities. Now that's a mouthful. Susan has worked within the agency in a variety of capacities, including VR counselor. She's been an assistant area manager and assistant deputy director. Susan, it's so great to have you here today. How are things going in Ohio?   Susan: Things are great. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you today.   Carol: All right. Well, today's topic is covering this idea of rapid engagement and the idea behind that is getting customers in and moving as quickly as possible. So they are successful in your agency has been using that lean process to completely revamp many of your processes and procedures. And I know that private industry has successfully used Lean for many years to improve manufacturing processes. But I know sometimes it doesn't always translate over to VR because we don't make widgets, after all. But we do work with people, and I know VR often creates really complicated processes to help individuals move through the VR system. So when I was in Minnesota, our governor had brought forward the idea of using lean throughout state government with some pretty successful results. I remember our license bureau for when undergoing a huge overhaul and where it would take weeks and months to get license plates and get your license. They were able to get that down to a matter of days, and so that was excellent. I know we also had to have a lean coordinator in each of our agencies that would report up to the governor on a quarterly basis, and we really put a lot of effort into that and you were able to get exposed to this same concept through your agency director Kevin Miller. And I remember talking with you a little bit ago that you really done a lot to examine your agency's processes and practices so you can do more for individuals with disabilities. So let's chat about this. Can you talk to me a little bit about your introduction to Lean and how it works in your agency?   Susan: Yes. Our director, Kevin Miller, joined O.D. back in January of 2011, and one of the first things that he did was establish a division of performance and innovation for the agency, and now that that division is called our Division of Employer and Innovation Services, and that deputy director was tasked with bringing lean into the organization. And like you mentioned in Minnesota, we have a lean Ohio office that provides all kinds of resources and support for state agencies who want to do this. So the way we kind of started out was members of executive team went to something that was called at the time, a champion training and where we learned and we were briefly exposed to all the different aspects of lean and learned how to champion lean processes within the organization. And after that, we started sending staff because within lean, there are belts like within karate. And so we've had people that have become green belts and black belts in lean processes. Now all of our supervisors and managers and some of our program specialists also receive yellow belt training, which is comparable to the to the champion training that I was mentioning. So now it's really kind of ingrained into all of the aspects of what we're doing. We've done tons of different lean events, which I'm going to talk about here and a little bit, and it's just more ingrained into our culture 10 years later.   Carol: Well, I like the word that you used in grain because you really do have to make it become part of the agency's culture. Otherwise it ends up being this thing that sits over here on a shelf, you know, and employees are like, Well, whatever, you know, here's the latest and greatest. I wondered, though, did you have some skepticism about the process in the beginning? And was there any kind of pivotal moment when staff went, Oh, you know what? I kind of do get this. I see where we're going.   Susan: Yes, One hundred percent at first it was really and I think you mentioned this earlier. It's kind of hard for our staff to think about our processes in these way. We've been trained that our processes all individualized and that's a good thing to meet the needs of the people that we serve. And it was really hard for them to think about standardizing that process as really a good thing. It was really counterintuitive to how we've always operated the program. Know, I think one of the other things that was kind of pivotal was looking at informed choice and how we could look at that differently. That informed choice isn't really free choice to where everybody has to have their path. We can kind of have some lanes. So to speak, that people are going into that will really help them meet their individualized objectives. So staff started participating in these lean events and despite that skepticism, once they really got involved, they were all in. For example, in these events are staff are empowered to make decisions. So it really uses frontline staff and also customers to help redesign these processes. And that really helped staff with buy in and then that team rolls it out to their peers. And so that in really helped, first of all. And then I would say the second thing was once we really started experiencing success and seeing these processes really result in the desired effects that we were looking for, then people were totally in, you know, they saw that it worked and then they wanted to do more of it because it makes things easier for our customers, but it also makes things easier for our staff. That's super   Carol: Cool. I like that about Lean. You know how it involves all these different layers of folks in the process. So it isn't just like some group over here is deciding a thing again, and then they're telling us what we're going to do. You know, I like that. I always remember all the little sticky notes up on the wall, churning out the whole process. And when you start moving sticky notes around and you go, Oh my gosh, great. We have like forty two steps to do this one thing, it is completely eye opening. Now I know when you and I had chatted, there were so many terrific projects that you had done and I'd like to break those down so our listeners can get a sense of what each is about. So can we start with the front door your process for getting rid of the waiting list? Can you tell me about that?   Susan: Yes. So this was back way in 2012, our first Kaizen event. So Kaizen means, I think, roughly break for the better or something like that. And it's really about process, like uncovering what is your process and fixing it. So at that time, as an agency, we averaged 127 days to eligibility from the start of the process to eligibility. And that was really the first piece of this was we didn't really know that that was our number before this happened because it is very data driven kind of activity. And I think we all would agree that 127 days is just unacceptable. And so staff really were like, Wow, no, this can't be we have to do better for the people that we serve. And so then our director said, I know that the federal standard is 60, but we're going to do 30 and our staff, myself included, I will freely admit we all looked at him like he had two heads. This was not possible. There were all the reasons, good reasons that we were at 127 days. We all knew we could do better, but to do 30 days was mind blowing. It just felt like an impossibility. So this team came together and they made all kinds of recommendations. The first thing was they realized we didn't have a process for doing intake and eligibility. We had like 88. So we have 88 counties in Ohio. Every county had their own process, and so this group was tasked with creating something new. And so some of the main things that they did was, first of all, they eliminated a whole pre-application process. We used to have a referral form that was even before the application. They were like, Get rid of that. And that already took off like 20 something days just right off the bat. Like that easy. We also had designated counselors at the time to determine eligibility, which had helped us get more consistent with our eligibility decisions. But they said we have a 4 lane highway and we need an 8 lane highway. We can't do it this way anymore. And so we moved away from that designated eligibility counselor model. And then they developed a process and they put time frames for each step like you have to do this within certain days and this within certain days. And it just helped reframe the pace at which we were taking all of these steps. And there were a whole bunch of other things. But those are some of the examples of what this team had recommended, and our commitment to the team was whatever you recommend, we're going to do. And so we did it. And over the years, we continued with a continuous improvement mindset. We started looking at different kinds of tools for tracking. We eliminated unnecessary assessments. I mean, we had people that were doing psych about us when we had a diagnosis just to figure out the functional limitations when the counselor can do an interview and figure out the functional limitations, right? So there's all kinds of things like this, and this really improved dramatically. And we have been at 23 1/2 days to eligibility for the last 4 fiscal years. And I'll tell you what I. Up for sure, during this pandemic, those numbers were going to go up. Our staff have just done a tremendous job with reducing these days to eligibility, and so all of these timeframes that reduce result in our being able to process cases quicker, get people to their employment goal quicker, which allows us then to have a space for the next person and serve more people. And this, like you mentioned, this was key in our eliminating our waiting lists. In 2014, we had been on order of selection for 25 years.   Carol: That's incredible. I mean, that is incredible.   Susan: Yeah, and in 2014, thanks to this and some other Lean processes, we were able to and we still are off of the order of selection.   Carol: I love that you talked about the data because, you know, it is a data driven world today, but you guys were looking at the data back when maybe not everybody was really looking at the data. So you're ahead of the curve. So WIOA wouldn't have thrown you as big of a curve ball when WIOA, as it did for maybe some other states, I think that's terrific. Now I know fast tracks another project that your agency is well known for. And in fact, it was the project that had me contacting you for more information. And then I found this really great treasure trove of all the cool things you were doing, and we have to talk about all of them, of course. So can you tell us about fast track?   Susan: Yeah, Fast Track was another result of a Kaizen that we did back in 2017. So this was implemented in April of 2017. And really the impetus was, you know, we'd have people come in and they didn't need as much. Maybe they'd worked before. Maybe they only needed something to help them save a job, you know, some equipment or something like that, and we had to take them through the whole thing every time. And our director said we need a fast like an express checkout at the grocery store sort of a thing so that people that are coming in that we can just quickly serve them and get them to their outcomes. And so we brought a team together to take a look at this. And they determined like if somebody needed three or fewer services or services that were likely to take no more than three months, they didn't need lots of assessments or things like that, then they would be a good candidate for this fast track. So we implemented it and they did a fantastic job. We were able to just really get people into a plan super quickly. But let me tell you what happened is that it really begs the question if we can do it quickly for people who are on this fast track, why can't we do that for everybody? And so it really kind of took us down a path with looking more now at time from plan to eligibility and the overall customer service, because we know when people come to see us, they are coming for us to get them a job in six months. They want to get them a job now or they want to get involved with training now. They don't want this long, convoluted process and complicated process. And so this was just a really great project that our field staff kind of designed and came up with. So last year, we had about 153 people use that fast track model. And I'll say that's kind of officially because our timeframes are so quick anymore that really a lot of people are getting rapidly into these jobs. So of those 153 last people, 105 of them are closed successfully. So we really have a strong success rate when we look at that model, which is really again about engaging rapidly people, they stay engaged. They get to that employment outcome at a greater percentage than individuals who were not so intensively moving forward as quickly.   Carol: I love that you're always like challenging your thinking and your processes and taking a look and like, All right, how does this apply to, you know, a different situation? I mean, if you think about how VR typically operates, if those folks that needed to come in and they really only needed like three months or less the services and they were waiting for eligibility, you know, 60 days and then you're going to do a plan in 90 days and maybe in six months, you get around to the first service gets provided or something. It's done like if they were going g to lose their job right, their job is gone. It's done. So this just plain makes smart business sense to do this.   Susan: Yeah.   Carol: So let's see, where do we go next? How about your IPS model and how those principles have leaked out to serving other populations?   Susan: Yeah. So this is another area of focus for us. We've enjoyed a wonderful partnership with our Ohio Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services for years and the IPS model individualized placement and support. It's a true evidence based practice model, and there are several different philosophies or aspects of the model things like rapid engagement, which we're talking about today. Open to everyone who wants to work, it's integrated with treatment, all of those things, and so the practice really measures fidelity to that model. We have really been working with mental health and addiction services. I'd say, I think over the last 15 years, but in particular, I'd say over the last 5 or 6, really good traction with implementing this model to improve our outcomes for individuals that we serve with severe and persistent mental illness. We've done some things like we've given accreditation waivers for mental health providers who deliver individualized placement and support models. We've established a supported employment services on our fee schedule that has a 25 percent enhancement in the rate over traditional job development rate that we did back in 2017, all to really help build capacity for this model. And IPS has been around for a long time. And I can remember 15 years ago this conversation, it just was really different. I think we had concerns in the VR system about some of these aspects of fidelity to the model at the time, when we talked about rapid engagement and we had all these processes, we're like, Yeah, that's not the way our system works, right? It's really open to everyone who wants to work. We would say, Yeah, but what about this situation? Are we really going to, you know, whatever? And I think we're just in a totally different place as a system now, and the language barrier between the two systems has been erased. So when they talk about zero exclusion, we're talking about a presumption to benefit. It's really the same concept. And I think as our system has evolved, we've been providing much better customer service to individuals with mental illness, and that has helped our partnership with mental health, which then in turn helped improve the outcomes for the people that we serve.   Carol: I love that, you know, a lot of times people forget to talk about customer service in government. You know, you think, Oh, like you can't have good customer service and government, but we can't afford to not have good customer service. I mean, as a system, when you look at all of the graphs like RSA will come to CSC and put up their graphs, what's happening nationally, you know, you see all these numbers tanking and people not getting into employment. We have to rethink like everyone has to rethink. And so it's exciting to listen to you because I think it will spark ideas and other folks as they're thinking about what they're doing in their own states. Now your state is an employment first state and we are as well in Minnesota. Can you tell me about your counselors working with the most significantly disabled population and being embedded in colleges? I know the stats say you are 4th from the bottom regarding median wages and what are you doing to move the needle on that?   Susan: Yes, we are in employment first state and we have a very robust employment first partnership agreement with our Department of Developmental Disabilities and yes, Minnesota Senate delegation years ago when we were early within that partnership to take a look at what we were doing. And you sent some of your VR staff and some of your partners also came to visit Ohio. That employment first partnership agreement with DOD started back in 2013 and really has been about helping people move from segregated settings into community employment. But in addition, we really recognize that we hadn't been serving individuals with disabilities who are going to college like we had many years ago, and there were part of that was being on order selection impacted that we have financial needs testing for training and a lot of the schools just kind of had written us off, to be honest with you. And we were serving some students, but not a lot. And so we have a program called Ohio College to Careers. This initiative was a part of our governor, Mike DeWine's vision for making Ohio a disability inclusion state and model employers for individuals with disabilities. When he came into office within literally minutes of taking his oath of office, he signed this executive order about this vision for services to individuals with disabilities in our state, which was wonderful. So as a part of the furtherance of that vision, we have Ohio college to careers and it embeds a counselor in the Disability Services Office or the career service officer. Kind of both. At 15, what started out is 15 Ohio State colleges and universities. So in 2019 we started at 15 colleges. 4 of those are 2 year schools and 11 of them are 4-year schools. And in 2021. Just this past year, we expanded to the two historical black colleges and universities in Ohio, Wilberforce and Central State. So now we have a total of 17 schools participating in this program, so it's a real, career focused model, we do obviously pay for students tuition and those investments are important for people with disabilities that we serve. But the most important thing that I think our counselors offer is that career focused model, how to help them get into internships, how to get the job placements once you're done with school, how to give you the technology that you need to be successful in your studies, the additional support and wraparound services, whether that be interview clothes or a computer or whatever those things are, that you need to be successful in your school. And when we talk to the colleges, that was something that they saw as missing, that they saw that sometimes their students with disabilities are the people that they had the most difficulty finding an internship placement for, and they welcomed our business relations staff. So this has in addition to our dedicated counselors, there are two career development specialists that focus on kind of the business relations end of the program. They do employer spotlights career education. They have an internship dashboard. They do specialized hiring events. All those things that really kind of just help those students achieve their career success. It's not going to do anybody any good to get a degree and then not actually achieve the employment that they were looking to obtain   Carol: Exclamation point on the end of that. So I know your kind of earlier on in this project, are you starting to see some like what's the data telling you about it?   Susan: Yeah, definitely. We see a broader array of employment goals that were helping people to achieve definitely higher wages, obviously with people that are getting those credentials, those degrees. And I think that's really kind of you'd mentioned median earnings. We did a great job of getting people into jobs, but we do really need to focus on increasing the wages and the hours and thusly the median earnings of the people that we serve. And so that's really about helping them attain credentials and degrees that are going to move them into those higher wage occupations.   Carol: When you're really living into the spirit of the whole WIOA process, really, I mean, that speaks exactly to what Congress is trying to do back in 2014. I think that's great. So switching gears again a little bit when you and I visited, you know, a month or so ago, there are so many intriguing things that you talked about, but one of them that has really piqued my interest was your team's work with a drug courts, and I really hadn't heard of anything like that. So why don't you tell us and the listeners a little more about that?   Susan: Yeah, this is another great program in partnership that we have achieved. Again, this is part of Governor DeWine's vision and was part of his budget in the last biennium. That kind of established this partnership with Recovery Ohio, our Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services. The Supreme Court of Ohio is a big player with this because they manage all these specialty dockets and our Office of Workforce Transformation. And so we had a successful model that had been developed in our Butler County, where we had a dedicated counselor that worked as a member of that drug court team to assist that person in their recovery. And when that person was ready to get started with employment, they would engage our counselor and they would work to help them figure out what kind of job and help them get that job. And then eventually we added an internal job developer that really helped again with that rapid engagement. You know, we're right there as part of the team. We're engaging them rapidly when it's time and we're quickly getting them into employment and that helps support the individual's recovery. This was a real successful model, and one of our governors important initiatives is to really focus on recovery and substance use disorders. And so this was just a great fit for us to expand. So in 2018, we expanded. So this is called jobs for recovery, And so we expanded into 7 counties. And right now we're expanding further into an additional 8 counties. This has been just a great partnership. I think when we talk to the courts, they have lots of people on these teams to support people in their recovery and avoiding the criminal justice system, and this really helps them have a dedicated resource. This was like a gap that they had identified, and people need to get work. Work supports recovery, but they didn't have an expert on the team around employment, and that's what OOD really brings to the table. And so we use that rapid engagement model, we place them into employment. We also can do some of those extra services. Get them transportation that they need to job interviews or again, interview clothes or other things that they didn't have resources for in the past. So it really filled a gap. So this has been just a great program in Ohio and it's still in the kind of ramping up phase, and it's just been a really positive and highly successful model.   Carol: What a difference it makes when you have elected officials that are like putting investments into this area with employment and people with disabilities, it's pretty amazing. I mean, I kind of wonder then where do you guys think you would be if that hadn't happened, if you didn't have Governor DeWine that had some of these initiatives?   Susan: Yeah, you know, I think we really tried hard. We think of our participants as our customers, business partners, our employer partners, but also our state agency partners, our customers. And so we want to be a part of the solutions to help them reach their goals. So whether it's a drug court that needs to help people get into employment to support their recovery, whether it's a developmental disabilities agency that is trying to move people from segregated settings into community employment, we can be a part of that solution.   Carol: I love it. It's exciting. I like to follow you guys. I know I get regular updates through one of my colleagues, Kristine Johnson, who lives in Ohio and subscribes to newsletters and said she's always sending me things she's like. Read this This is like amazing the work that they're doing, so I'm going to switch again a little bit to the pandemic, of course. So the pandemic, I know it's been brutal on VR. And when you look at the numbers over the last two years, it's been really, really tough. However, your agency, again, you're engaged in jobs now. So what is that all about?   Susan: So this was another cousin back in September 2018, we did a cousin to improve our job and candidate sourcing model. We have now more than six hundred and 50 employer partners that we are actively working with. And what this is, is really kind of identifying high demand positions within our employer partners and we make a searchable list available. Then we establish a process for quickly getting a person into placement with that employer partner. So when I rewind years ago and I was a counselor, people would come and say, I just want a job now, and I would say, Well, that's not how it works. I don't have a bank of jobs. We have to do our process and we're going to do a good job so that we know it's a good fit and so on and so forth. And that's just malarkey. You know, if somebody comes in and says, I need a job now, we need to say we're going to get you a job now, and we have six hundred and fifty business partners that we work with. There's not a reason that we can't do that. And so that's really what this was about is how do we as quickly as possible do that match? Still, because that's what our business partners, our employer partners appreciate about working with us is we're going to do that screening, but renew it quickly so that the needs of the business partner are met and the needs of our participant. So initially, that was called job. Now we pivoted a little bit with this when the pandemic hit and we moved to an urgent hiring list because soon after we went home back in March of 2020…   Carol: eons ago!   Susan: yes, yes, we learned quickly from our employer partners that they had just some urgent needs to fill spot. And so we like to say don't ever waste a crisis. So we really moved in a different direction with that. And so we started publishing and doing active candidates sourcing for these urgent hiring needs of our employer partners. And so we moved into doing virtual hiring events to directly source these candidates. So at these hiring events, we're actually doing interviews with the employers for open positions that they are actively recruiting for. And this has been a great model. We've had some that have been for us. We've done them for specific employers statewide. We've done some around certain industries, we've done some targeted for specific groups. We tried doing one for transition students last year, for example. We're about to do our second work from home virtual hiring events that are just employers who have work from home opportunities that are people really can benefit from. So that has been kind of an evolution over the last 5 years or so of this candidate sourcing model that we've had, and we've been tremendously successful with that. In fact, while our numbers are down a little bit with applications, eligibility, new plans, our placements and closures are comparable to or better than pre-pandemic or last year's numbers, with placement really pleased with the work that our staff have been doing to do these virtual hiring events. And continue to place people in light of the pandemic.   Carol: I was going to ask that I'm glad you said that about your numbers because I was curious. I know a number of you, probably in just a cohort with a few that are experiencing good placement numbers. I know a lot of folks it's kind of taint the last two years, so that sounds pretty creative with the virtual hiring and the remote work from home. A lot of people are interested in that, and it really can take away some of those barriers that some of our customers face with transportation and all that. Hoo ha. Right. When you can work from home, which is incredible, I love it. So when you look back and you analyze the impact of all this work you've done. How have the numbers looked for your customers as you reflect back kind of on the value overall of all of these projects that you've worked on?   Susan: Well, number one, getting off of order of selection has been a game changer for us. That's never a good situation to have to sit across the desk for somebody and say, we can't help you. We know we could, but we can't. And so that has been just a huge deal for us. But as I mentioned earlier, we've been averaging 23 1/2 days to eligibility for the previous 4 fiscal years. And we've really seen with all of these things our time from eligibility to plan trending down over the last fou4 years or so ago, we've been from about 60 days to about 49 days. And so that also has been just a tremendous benefit, customer service wise to the people that we serve. I just mentioned our placement and closure numbers. Those have been really great. And so kind of our next steps within the organization is really just to focus on the quality of the employment outcomes that we're achieving the credentials, getting more people into credential programs so that we can help them kind of move out of poverty and increase those median earnings for the program.   Carol: So for our listeners out there, what would you recommend, Susan, as some, you know, tips from yourself as far as if somebody is looking and thinking, we need to do our processes differently, like where do you even start? You guys have been doing this now for over a dozen years, and you have a lot of good learning experiences under your belt. What advice would you give to others?   Susan: I think I mentioned a few minutes ago, but don't waste a crisis. A crisis can really spur innovation. I know, for example, we have been trying to get remote counseling going for years, and it just never took off. But now remote counseling has been going great. Our participants love it. That wouldn't have happened without this pandemic. And so that's just one example. But Lean really is a great tool. It can't make the decisions for you, but it can give you the tools for looking at data and doing the process improvement to help make the right decisions for our customers. Another thing I would mention is just really listening to the voice of the customer, and that's an important component or concept within lean processes. And really looking at things through the lens of that customer experience really helps build a system around the needs and the preferences of the people that we serve, which is critical to our success. And then I think really thinking of ourselves as a workforce agency, we're not necessarily as much of a social service agency and really kind of looking at these processes and how they can raise those bar of expectations for the people that we serve. It's a great tool.   Carol: So I'm sure that there's going to be folks that want to reach out to you for a little advice or some assistance. How would folks best contact you?   Susan: Yeah. So I would welcome a conversation with anyone who wants to talk more about this so you can reach me by email. Probably the best way, Susan, S U S A N dot Pugh at OOD.Ohio.Gov is my email. Yes, please reach out. You can also see my contact information on our website as well, if you would like to reach out.   Carol: I sure appreciate your time. This has been really exciting and I'm sure you're going to get some contacts. I really thank you for your time today and I really wish you much success and everything you're doing, and I definitely will circle back with you down the road as you keep creating new and groovy things that you're doing in Ohio.   Susan: Thanks much. Thank you. I appreciate the time to share the good news about what our staff is doing out there. It's been a great ride.   Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Susan: I'm not so sure we should do this. Josh: Do what? Susan: Well, I like you, and I want to spend the night with you. Josh: Do you mean sleep over? Susan: Well, yeah. Josh: OK... but I get to be on top.

Join Edina and Addison as we travel back to 15th Century, Mexico. Barbara gets mistaken as a god, Ian is set to fight for the command of the Aztec army, The Doctor gets engaged and Susan… Well where is Susan? Separated from the TARDIS, will the team be able to reach safety before the day of darkness?

Susan Milender: Welcome to thriving on the prairie. This is a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Susan Milender, NDSU Extension family and community wellness agent and I'm located in Barnes County. And today I have the honor of visiting with Carrie Johnson, who's our NDSU specialist for family and  personal finance. So today, Carrie, we get to discuss holiday spending or maybe how not to spend during the holidays. And, you know, to start off, Carrie, I just want to say that the holidays come every year at the same time. And every year, I'm surprised that it snuck up on me.Carrie Johnson: Yeah, so we're quickly entering this holiday season of 2020 you know this year, more than others, has been a difficult year to plan for the future. So it can really almost feel like ‘The Nightmare Before Christmas'. Ideally, people would have started saving for the holidays. Shortly after the New Year, in January. But many people's circumstances changed so rapidly this year or uncertainty is really impacted people's ability to save. It does feel like the holidays came a little earlier this year than they typically do.Susan: I know Carrie, just really seriously snuck up on me and you know, I love that you said, ‘The Nightmare Before Christmas' because I can continue with that thread. By saying that I don't want to be a grinch this holiday season, even though I didn't really plan. So, you know, after all, this is the season of COVID. So who can really plan? Every day is totally different. Right?Carrie: Exactly. Susan: So, you know,  …..And I think that the holidays are stressful enough. And then we add this unpredictable nature of our economy and shutdowns, and maybe like less hours at work or less items on the store shelves, or….. gosh, delayed deliveries and not to mention that social distancing factor. So I guess I could go on and on, but, you know, Carrie I sound like a negative Nelly, sorry.Carrie: Yeah. You know, I think we could be negative about the 2020 holiday season. Or we could change our attitude and find that silver lining. Even though this year might look a little different than it has in the past, it could really be an opportunity to re-envision and reimagine what we think of the holidays. A word I've been trying to use a lot lately is pivot. So now I know not everyone likes change, family holiday traditions are a big part of this time of year. And it's really fun to dream about something that looks like one of those hallmark movies or a Pinterest picture, but we really need to be careful not to compare ourselves with others. Everyone's circumstances are different. The reality is that if we're strategic and we make a plan, we can really find ways to celebrate the holidays this year without breaking the bank.Susan Milender: Yeah, so, you know, Carrie, right now as you were talking, I was thinking about Christmas coming up and all of the holiday traditions. So, you know, if I were sitting on Santa's knee right now. I think that I would ask him for that holiday season filled with sugar plum fairies for everyone, just like you said, I love that Pinterest pictures because I had those rolling through my mind. But you know what the reality is with this year, some people are facing tough financial times. And yet others have had that good fortune of being able to continue on their regular path. So, you know, either way, we all want to be really smart with our money, and we don't want to end up with that debt hangover in January. So I'm really thankful that you're going to walk us through some tips for our finances in this holiday season.Carrie Johnson: Yeah, exactly. And there are some tips that we can all take away, like you said, whether you've had some issues with financial or some financial issues recently, or things are status quo and they're normal. Everybody can always look at some financial tips in their lives. So the first thing I really wanted to share this time of year is to set a holiday budget, which is going to be different than your typical household monthly budget. You know, how much can you realistically spend without causing future financial problems this holiday season? Will you spend the same amount that you typically do that you have in past years? Or are you gonna be spending more because you might not be traveling? Or are you going to be spending less just to save for the future a little bit and not put yourself in a financial strain? But either way, we really need to have a dollar amount set to make sure that we don't overspend.Susan: You know, Carrie, I think you just swore - I think budget should be like a four-letter word sometimes. So, you know, we're getting closer and closer to Christmas. And I'm going to just say, I have not made out a holiday budget. So where would I start?Carrie: First thing you need to do is make a list, I would say. Make a list. Check it twice. Write down absolutely all of your expenses that you typically have this time of year. Do you buy gifts, your food for meals for get-togethers, which you might not be having as much this year. Or baked goods, maybe your travel expenses, decorations - are you going to purchase more decorations. This year, more than ever, people are starting to decorate a little earlier to bring up their spirits. So maybe you are going to spend a little bit more on decorations and thinking of other things like postage and shipping. Susan: Oh boy.Carrie: So when you're listing your gifts, especially list every single person that you usually buy something for along with the amount that you plan on spending for that person. Include all people. This means small gifts, like your office gift exchange, you might not think of $15 as being a big deal, or your child's teacher's gifts. But all of these small expenses really add up fast.Susan : Yeah, you know Carrie, I'm always surprised when I think back to my Christmas and I... I look at all the big gifts, but I never think about all the stocking stuffers and little gifts that I hand out here and there, jeeze you're right they can really add up. But you know what Carrie, I love, love, love your ideas of lists and I do make a list of ideas for people. But here's where I run into a problem. And frankly, I'm not sure that you can help me with this problem because it's a discipline problem, but I'm going to hope that you have an idea. So here's what happens. I buy gifts for somebody on my list and then as it gets closer to them closer to Christmas or the holidays, I end up buying something more, and then just because I have this fear of being unfair, I buy... I feel like I have to buy for everybody else, to up the ante. So if I give five gifts to someone, I want to give five gifts to someone else, if I spend $25 on somebody. I want to spend $25 on them. So it becomes this vicious circle. So I guess I have to just stick to my list???Carrie: You know, it is difficult to stick to a budget and stick to a list sometimes, it takes commitment. You know, creating a budget is one thing. And I just do also want to want to stick this in there when you said you love lists, but budgeting, not so much. Think of a budget as a list, right? If you like to cross things off on a list. Think of your budget as a list and tracking is kind of like you're crossing things off. Just a little non holiday trick for you.Susan: I love that. That's empowering for me.Carrie: Yeah, there you go. You know, but creating that budget and tracking your spending is so important. It doesn't just have to fall under this holiday time but it's really similar to how you would do your monthly household budget. And just making that commitment. Right. You just have to say, ‘Okay, I'm done'. It is difficult. I'm not going to say it's not difficult, because I've done the same thing. I'm, I'll be completely honest with you. Or if you're in that situation where you see something, maybe you take that and replace something else that maybe you've already purchased that you could return. So you're not finding yourself in this vicious circle of spending.Susan: You know, I did also like the idea of writing it down right away. And here's another problem - that “buy with one click” is really dangerous for me. Because oftentimes I like, click away and then a box comes and then I'm like, oh yeah, now I remember ordering that so I'm telling you, every day is Christmas at the Milenders.Carrie: It is, online shopping can be extremely enticing to just click, click, click, and then you forget. Oh, that's right, I already ordered that person something. But again, you can always return things! If you've gotten yourself into a situation that you shouldn't have. It's okay to reevaluate what you've done. So you can stick to that budget because remember when you when you created that, that spending plan that that dollar amount. That was your maximum that you could spend if you go over. Where's that money coming from? So, be realistic this time of year. It is fun to give. We all love to be generous and give things to people, but we also have to be mindful and take care of ourselves this time of year too.Susan: That is so true. So you know the other area that I really think about is postage, because oftentimes, like I said, I buy online and then I can have it shipped directly to the, the person that I'm giving to, but I know that I just sent a very small like jewelry box size, gift and it was like $7. And then I thought, oh my gosh, I spent my budget for that gift, it was a birthday gift. I spent my budget for that birthday gift, but I never anticipated, adding that $7 to the gift cost.Carrie: Yep, so extra postage shipping this time of year, that needs to be budgeted in. If you're having things gift wrapped, so I know sometimes I will do that as well. I'll purchase something online and have it gift wrapped and shipped, even though the shipping is free, it might cost me $5 to have it wrapped. Which is not something I typically have budgeted for. The other thing, yeah, so making sure, like if you have Christmas cards you're mailing out. How much did those costs that postage can really add up. And then also, maybe you're doing things like a homemade gift. So you're...you're saving money there but you never budget in how much it's costing to send that homemade gift. Even though you're saving a little, you have to remember to budget what it's going to cost them to get it to that person. Because we might not be getting together this holiday season in our big groups like we typically have in the past. Looking at your budget, like I said at the beginning. What do you typically spend, but also, how's it going to be different this year? So that shipping and postage costs might be a little higher this year, than it typically has been in the past.Susan: Yeah, you know I typically send out a lot of Christmas cards, but I have to remember that I probably don't have to send to people that were on my wedding list 30 years ago, right. I mean, I could probably scale back and now you can email cards, as well. And sometimes it's just, if you think about a card as a gift, maybe? You know that might help me, as well. Yeah, you've got some great tips, now so we talked about gifts and we talked about making a budget for gifts and we talked about making a budget for postage and sticking to that list, which is really hard. But I also know traveling is going to be a little different this year. Right? And with that, we might be staying home. Eating and having fun in the kitchen. So what do you have for me on tips for food and grocery shopping.Carrie: Yeah, make sure you have your budget set for food. In my house, this is,no matter what time of year. This is my highest expense every month during every holiday season. We love eating in our house, you know, and with four teenagers, that is a quite a large expense every month. And during the holidays. So remember when you do go and buy your food, having that grocery list. And it may look different this year, if you're planning on staying home not traveling to Grandma and Grandpa's and getting ...getting fed. So, I will miss that. Or I may have done the cooking at Grandma and Grandpa's house, but I didn't have to buy the food right? It was all pre-purchased for me. I just had to send my list home. So you might have to increase that amount that you spend on food this time of year. You may be baking with the kids, a little bit more often so you might need a budget for that. But grocery stores typically are running sales this time of year on those... those ingredients. You know we just got the weekly flyers last, yesterday. Well, I don't get them - I go online and look at them every week, every Wednesday. for sales in Fargo. And, you know, this time of year, you find your traditional holiday meal ingredients, also baking supplies. And some of those things for baking, you might want to stock up on now on those ingredients that aren't going to go bad, just because you know we might start baking now and bake throughout. You know, when the kids are home from school for those few weeks, the end of December - beginning of January, just to have some activities to do together. So maybe stocking up on some of those things that are a little less expensive right now because it is the holiday season. So might be a good thing. Susan: So know that Carrie, I don't mean to interrupt, but that's a really good idea to stock up but I go back to that impulse shopping, because when I'm in the grocery store. I go in for one item and I leave with fifteen. And I just ordered online and I had it delivered and that really cut back on my impulse shopping, frankly.Carrie: YeahSusan: Just wanted to throw that in there.Carrie: I.. that's a great tip I've been doing that myself, because I love shopping for food. Again, we love to eat, and I'll see one thing and go, oh, I could make that. And then I have to go back throughout the whole store and buy 15 other ingredients to make that thing that look that sounded good to me so. Finding ways, if you know you're an impulse shopper, if finding ways to limit your trips to the store or limit the amount of time you spend browsing online shopping. Maybe deleting apps from your phone so it's not quite as easy to buy those, those things this time of year. You know, I have on my phone, I have a whole folder that says online shopping and there's probably 20 apps in there of different stores that I, I can just, you know, scroll while I'm watching TV and maybe just taking those apps off the phone will save you money and help curb your impulses.Susan: That is a good idea. I might have to take a look at that. So, now I've got my budget set, Carrie. And I have overspent on my budget. Suggestions?Carrie: It happens. This is one area that you know I talk to people and they're like, “what do I do now?” You know, you move on. You don't want to beat yourself up. Right. Sometimes we make mistakes with money and that's okay. You don't want to dwell on that and go ...You know, and bring yourself down. Acknowledge that...okay, I made a financial mistake. I need to learn from this and move on. But don't dwell on it. You know, if you can return things, do that. If not, again, move on. Don't, don't beat yourself up for, for not meeting your exact budget amount because you don't want to kind of have that dreary, sad feeling from buying. You know, buyer's remorse, it's a real thing. Do your best. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't. You know, if you if you've made a few mistakes, it's okay. You learn from them and you move forward.Susan: So we're going to start with the list and hopefully capture everybody that we're going to buy for right? Carrie: Yep.Susan: Yeah. Make a list and then we see oh gosh, my budget is probably a little bit more than I thought. Right? So, do I have your permission to like cross people off my list?Carrie: Absolutely. There's, there's nothing wrong with that, um, you have to again worry about yourself, as well. This time of year we want to be generous. A lot of you know maybe all year,during, you know, during the whole year. We want to be generous. And we do sometimes overdo it this time of year. And maybe if you're not crossing something off...someone off, maybe you're reducing the amount that you spend or the number of gifts that you give to somebody.Susan: I know you know that's a good idea because I, I feel obligated sometimes to purchase a gift for everybody that I've ever met. Or every teacher you know, my for we've got. I remember when my kids were little, we would give to the Sunday school teacher, the paras, the music teacher, the gym teacher, the principal, the school secretary... every coach. And for us adults, it might be your garbage collector, your mail person, your neighbor, your handyman, and, I don't even know, your second grade teacher. And frankly, I should be giving my UPS driver, who has quickly become my best friend during the season, a gift, but you know, I'm not sure that that's such a good idea. So I know that there will be something that comes up. Should I plan, a little extra money in my budget or will that just give me the license to spend more?Carrie: That will give you the license to spend more. Do your best to stick to your budget. But also remember holidays, it's more than just giving gifts. You know, it's more than how much we're spending on somebody. You know, this is a time to be resourceful and allow yourself not to buy a person a gift. Or if it's going to add more pressure to you, bake goods to give to everybody, you know, if you don't have the time, you don't have the resources this time this year - give yourself the okay to not to do some of these things. Breaking a holiday tradition like buying gifts can be really tough to swallow. Right? It is something we do every year. Especially if you have children there. I'll be honest, my kids expect presents every year. That's, that's really what they do. But if you need to make that tough choice for your financial future, so it's not in jeopardy. Just become a little more creative and have a conversation with your family and say this year is going to be different. Be open. Be honest. Don't scare your children into thinking that you know we're in a dire situation, but just say this year might look a little different than than years past.Susan: You know, can I say something here? That is so true, because we had a conversation with my family and I frankly thought that I was going to be opening up this can of worms. You know, changing gift giving, traditions and all, but I was really surprised, Carrie. That everyone was open to the idea of limiting gifts and frankly, I think they were relieved. I think everyone was really scared to speak up, because they were kind of scared of upsetting the status quo. So, this year with my four adult kids, four of whom are in college and broke. We decided to draw names and that's quite a change for us because we were typically, you know, everybody bought something for everybody else and then Santa came in the morning, so. We decided this year we're going to do the four gift rule, and I'm sure you've heard about that. So the four gift rule is  buying something they want, something they need, something to wear, and something to read. And we drew names. So we're really scaling back, but frankly, I thought everyone was relieved. Which surprised me.Carrie: Yeah, those are great ideas. You know, it leads me to my next tip for the holidays this year is yeah, that family conversation. Like you said people. basically seemed relieved. So if you're having, and maybe it's not because of financial difficulties, but if maybe everybody else is kind of on that same page going... “oh I was too afraid to bring it up”. So just having those open, honest conversations is so important when it comes to money. Making sure everybody's on the same page. Because if you're not, you're competing, right, you're competing for those same resources. So making sure everybody has, you know, you've talked about your, your financial goals for this holiday season and everybody's working toward those same goals, you're going to have a better outcome, too.Susan: Yeah, I thought it was kind of funny. I went to... my extended family draws names and then we have a theme for the year. So we spend like 20 to $25 and one year, we had a gift card exchange. And I thought that was so silly because I'm giving you $20 and then you're giving me back $20 and I don't know. It just seemed kind of silly to me. But this year, what we're doing is we're creating gifts around the 12 Days of Christmas. So sometimes we've done, like neck up or waist down or your favorite color. But we can get super creative and spend less money that way. So…Carrie:Yeah. Susan: Resourceful. Right?Carrie: Yeah, you know, and even if money is not an issue, you can still do other things to, for to change things. So this year in our household so again, I have four teenagers But I plan on taking them shopping, they're each getting $25 to actually spend on a gift for.. to donate. So not just teaching them about getting gifts this time of year, but also that there are people out there who are less fortunate, who may have lost a job, who may have had their hours cut. And providing them with that lesson that we need to have compassion during the holiday season and that we can help others too, and not just worry about what we're getting.Susan: And oh my gosh, I love that. I love that idea of giving them money to donate. What a great idea. So, I want to go back for a second, to online shopping, because so many people are going to be clicking this, this season. Do you have any tips for us?Carrie: Yeah, making sure you're staying safe while online shopping is going to be a big issue this year. First and foremost, make sure you're on a reputable site. If you're buying from, making sure you're buying from a secure website someone's looking at the URL and making sure there's the HTTPS, which means it's a secure site when you're checking out instead of just HTTP. That's going to help you out a little bit. Checking yourSusan: Wait, time out. Time out on that. You said HTTPS?Carrie: S. Yes. S as in SAM. Correct.Susan Milender: Well, I didn't know that. So if it's HTTP, it's a, it's not a legit site.Carrie: It is a legit site. It's not secure to enter your, like financial information. So if you ever are checking out from an online retailer, double check. Or if you're ever putting personal information in online somewhere, double check that there's the ‘s' there because that shows you that site is secure.Susan: Oh, that's really interesting. Thanks for that. Yeah definitely look. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.Carrie: Know that's perfect, I wanted to make sure you had that clarification. That's great. But also checking your bank and credit card statements closely. Or these days, you don't have to wait until your statements come out, you can check pretty much every day if you want. To make sure there's been no fraudulent charges to make sure you can catch anything that happens on there as quickly as possible so you can dispute that. And then if you do pay your balances on your credit card every month, one thing I would suggest is using a credit card this time of year. Because it doesn't give sellers direct access to the money in your bank account and credit cards have the zero liability for fraudulent purchases. So, it's just a little bit safer for you and protecting your money.Susan: Do you mean safer than a debit card? Is that what you mean?Carrie: Yes. Because if you're providing your debit card information, that's providing information to your entire bank account right. People could take money out of your account and it's a little more difficult to get money back, than it is to just dispute charge on your credit card.Susan: Hmm. You know, I know my son just disputed a charge. And just like that, they took care of it. The company was easy. And I, you know, the other thing I wanted to go back to was postage. So when we're shopping online, and we're thinking about sites that might offer free shipping, is that safe?Carrie: Yeah. Free shipping is a great perk you know, and and helps us save money. Now, during the holidays and all year right. We love free shipping. But you also need to think about the other angles with the free shipping. you know, for example, maybe you won't be able to see your family in person this year, and you want to ship something directly to them. But you have to spend a minimum sometimes to get the free shipping. So, I do see a lot of times people go, “oh, I spent this much to get free shipping”.Susan: I have done that! Carrie: Yeah. So is that free shipping really saving you any money? Or, you know, if you decide to shop for gifts in your hometown and, and buy from your small businesses to help your local economy and help your small businesses out in your community, they might not be able to offer free shipping and that might be okay. So really looking at the trade-off of this free shipping. You know, spending a few dollars on shipping could be an okay thing if you're getting a benefit out of it.Susan: When we've got so many fun North Dakota local businesses, that it's really fun to shop at those little stores or even online for, to support our local businesses. I just love that idea.Carrie: And I love….. I love sending North Dakota things home to South Dakota to see the reaction in my family.Susan Milender: You could be evil that way, couldn't you. I'm sure when they open the gift. They're like, Oh gosh! Do you get South Dakota gifts then back?Carrie: I get text messages.Susan: Well, Carrie, I just want to wrap this up by asking you if you have any more tips for me about holiday spending this year?Carrie: You know, with the holidays fast approaching, the earlier you can start the better. You know the National Retail Federation found that 42% of holiday shoppers have started earlier this year than they normally do. So planning ahead is, is key. You know, if you can spread those expenses over multiple paychecks it's going to make it a little bit easier on yourself, if you if you didn't put that money in savings at the beginning of the year. And then once your budget and your list are created, do your best to stick to it - it's really tempting to buy something just because it's on sale. I get it. Retailers and marketers are really smart, so they know how to get us to spend money. But those impulse purchases can really impact your family finances over the next several months and maybe even years, depending on how much you spendSusan: Yeah, you know, I am going to heed your warning. I'm going to really stick to my list because I know it's not only good for my budget, but frankly, it's also good for my stress levels. Right, sticking to my budget, and I, I am going to try to start shopping early because I've also heard that deliveries might get delayed. And here's, here's what I envision happening is my delivery might get delayed and then I panic and then I spend way more money because I didn't plan ahead. So, I think that I'm going to heed all your warrant, all your advice about sticking to my budget, making a list, not impulse shopping, and planning ahead. And, and then also communicating and being open to changes this holiday season. And frankly, Carrie, sometimes I just needed me to hear that I have permission to say no. You know, I have permission to say no to maybe those extra things in my budget or extra things in my, in my schedule that can really make me forget about the fundamental reason for this celebratory season. So it comes down to people matter and not things. So, Carrie, I want to really thank you for empowering me to look at the season a little differently. And I'm going to take my Grinch hat off and I'm going to cherish the opportunity to refocus this year on holiday traditions. So with that, I want to thank everyone for listening to Thriving on the Prairie and to subscribe to the podcast and access the full transcript, as well as resource links from this episode. visit www.ag or AG. ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairie and you can find more resources for families and communities at this website www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension. Extending knowledge, changing lives.

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talkpush the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello, and welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. Today. We are honored to have on the show, Mrs. Susan Hanold PhD, who is also the VP and the ADP Strategic Advisory Services Group. Susan, welcome to the show. Susan: Thanks Max. Great to be here. Max:  Susan  was named top women in HR technology by Recruiting Daily, and works with ADP's clients to build out their recruiting strategies. So tell us a little bit about ADP and then we'll go into our usual round of questions about how this industry is changing. Susan, I will let you talk about ADP, you will probably do better than I can. We were talking before the show that ADP does a lot more than payroll, and through acquisitions has moved into the RPO world. And into the technology world. Can you give us a quick summary of your universe? Susan: Sure. So interesting to me about eight years ago, when I was first hired at ADP. I came in as a talent strategy expert. So it was like you, I thought, Oh payroll! It's only payroll, but it's not. It's a full HCM human capital management company. And it's been in business over 70 years. And you know, over the last eight years, our talent ecosystem has grown. You know, eight years ago we started our RPO business. We have talent management, talent activation, you know, you have to put different words on all the different types of talent products. So activation is kind of a new area. That's an engagement, and performance area,  talent management, and you've got talent acquisition.Max: You've got my attention with this talent activation. We'll come back to it later. Susan: Yeah. So, you know, to me what's exciting is that, it's a global organization, it's got 140 countries and, you know, of course we're known for payroll and that's very core to us and we have 58,000 employees. And for me, you know, like you Max, as we were talking before, my day job was traveling a lot, I lived on an airplane and what was most important to me was satisfying our clients and helping them build out their talent strategy. And so I was basically traveling around trying to be in person, getting to know them and their businesses. And so that has switched a bit here now. Max: Well, we have so many hours in the day now. I understand that you're investing some of this time that you got back from all that traveling around the world, into helping  your community and working with the University of Texas in Arlington.Susan: Yeah. So I felt one of the ways to give back is to share those experiences and what I'm learning right now in my day job and the real life experiences. And I just feel like they are really enjoying that. They love hearing, you know, balancing the book work if you will, with the real life application.Max: Yeah i could make a nice segway on the world of recruitment. Hearing more about the stories and about the book, hearing more about the candidate than about the resume, which is something I believe we must move away from in recruitment. Move away from the resume. Tell us. How, how did you end up in talent acquisition professor? Susan: Well, it just happened naturally. I mean, I didn't say, Oh I'm going to go into talent acquisition. I am just a sponge for learning. And at ADP, I was given the opportunity to really keep learning and building and learning more about what they offered from a talent product perspective, and ourselves, and our services. And I started off in talent management and then it just naturally evolved to talent acquisition. And with the model that we follow which is attracting, engaging, and retaining. So many times I'll have clients that'll say, well let's talk about our turnover. And everything comes back to let's look at the whole ecosystem. So let's start from the beginning and come all the way through the talent life cycle. And so I just started expanding my conversation and learning more. I'm so very thrilled to be talking about it today, Max:  I've been asked by a number of companies to look at retention and you know, for me, it's the ultimate success metric for the company. Are you a people-centered company? It should be measured by whether you can retain your people or not. And the unfortunate thing is you cannot really give that number, the retention number, you cannot let any one department own it. Because it really starts even at sourcing.  If you source a wide enough audience, a big enough talent pool, then  you'll be able to be a lot more picky and find people who have a better culture fit, which should certainly increase retention, logically. So, I think these arguments are a little hard for me  to carry on the sell side. To say that recruitment helps retention and sourcing helps retention. But I do believe that fundamentally and in principle.Susan: Well, it's interesting, how did you know of the email I was just looking at before our conversation, because I had just got a request from a client that wants to have a turnover workshop. And that seems to come up quite frequently. And you know, in my role, my goal is to help our clients. So I'm external focused and help them with a lot of advice and insights. So I'm not really necessarily executing on a product, but it's looking at the whole people process and technology and in my role in product agnostic. So when the clients are coming and asking for help, like hey I've got a pain point of turnover. It's like exactly what you said. It's really having to dig in and look at the bigger picture. And where is it going to, where's it really coming from? And I'd say about two or three years ago, our team got together and we were hearing a pattern of turnover retention coming up and we're like, well we just need to start at the basics. What is it? What data do you need? And then we actually put a diagnostic together and it sounds really fancy when you say, well, I put a diagnostic together, but I honestly started going to key stakeholders. And businesses and saying, what data are you gathering? What are you measuring? And start pulling this together. And I hate to use the word HCM, but it truly is. It was a full human capital management list of questions. And I said, hey, here's a great list of questions. That you as a recruiter, or you as an HR leader can take to your CEO and say, if you say no to any of these questions, then you don't have a comprehensive turnover retention strategy.And so I just kind of knew exactly what it said. I started adding more and more questions to it. And it's wider. It was outside of recruiting, it went to performance, it went to communications, it went to marketing, and they all have an impact. So, anyway, I ended up with a good tool out of it.Max:  Yeah, the diagnostic, you can repurpose it? Susan: I sure can. Max: I mean, with a PhD  you can turn any worksheet into a methodology. Right? There is a way to commercialize that for sure. And I want to go back to that word you used earlier, talent activation, is that a new fancy word for onboarding?Susan: Not really. Talent activation is really activating talent. So it's really engaging the talent, checking in, keeping their productivity up. It's really a connection to right now. To the resiliency that we're seeing with the pandemic. So as a leader, how are you able to react to adverse situations? So how you act, you activate yourself.And it's also how managers are working with team members, other individuals or subordinates. To really engage them and keep them aligned to their goals! So that's a whole nother piece of it, which it does. You know, there's acquisition, activation and management. You've got to love how we put all these words to things, these new names.Max: I'll stay with onboarding. I've got enough words in my vocabulary, but thanks for that. Let's go back in time a little bit. And, well actually, on the top of retention, and the fact that it's in your inbox right now makes me wonder. Are companies preparing for 2021 thinking? Well, we kept our staff in 2020 because everybody was holding onto their seats and holding on for their life. And we'll have a wave of, you know, we have to be ready for a wave of turnover insurance. In the coming months you know, do you feel that, going on in the market that there's a little bit of anticipation and fear in that direction? Or is that just in my head? Susan: No, I don't think it's in your head. I think it's a very real situation. I mean, I think that you have the companies that you've, you know, that are not sure when to bring staff back, so they don't want to have to furlough or lay off again. So you've had some of those companies that have had to go through those situations. And then I was just working with, you know, one of our newest RPO clients that can't hire fast enough! Because they just can't find it. They're actually, you know, doing some of the COVID testing, but in sense their sourcing is extremely high, yet being able to keep and retain, you know, back to your turnover and where your retention is, and I even mentioned onboarding.  So how do you get all of that lined up so quickly? You scale up so quickly and do not want to lose somebody and still need to keep that whole candidate experience high. Because somewhere it's going to fall through the cracks, so I think that piece is... But there, I definitely think that there is  a sense of some folks that are very worried, right? So you have people that are wanting to keep their job, but yet I'm seeing some people, you know, go ahead and say maybe business isn't where, I want it to be. And I'm okay to jump. I'm going to be a job hopper right now, but I still think there's some unpredictability to headcount needs, where some businesses are fluctuating and that can cause a little bit of a roller coaster.And, you know, I even saw it with our own organization where some departments were busy. So people, you know, employees took a temporary job-hop over to another department to leverage their skills. So it definitely is a little bit uncertain, but that cloud. That fearfulness. I still think that's still there.Max: Yeah. That's going to stay with us even post election. I think there's still a lot of uncertainty in the market. But, I mean the recovery in Q3 has been very strong in North America anyway. And I guess that ADP should have a strong 2021, on the RPO business and technology, of course. So, you've got your finger on the pulse of the economy.  Can you give us, our listeners, some insights on how the wind is blowing? Susan: Well, you know, we do a lot of labor economy, market calls and so forth. Of course we're known for the unemployment report, but we also have something called the, workplace vitality report, which you know, is a quarterly, real time data or site, If you want to call it that,  where you can quarterly know what's happening with compensation. What's happening with unemployment? Is it a job hopper market? What's the hourly rate? What's happening part-time or full-time? And so by that, I'm definitely up to date on what's happening with the market, the trends, you know, really month to month, I look at this and how I can slice the data in different ways.But I think that's only one piece. I think the other piece that I look at to kind of know what's going on in the market is, what am I hearing from our clients? And, what kind of work are they asking for? And one of the biggest things that I am seeing is just keep it simple. Like since a lot of people are trying to make it easier for the candidate, for their employees and not trying to disrupt or come up with a lot of new stuff right now, new projects.But in doing this. They're trying to look at cost containment, process optimization, and really trying to say, how can I make my recruiting team as efficient as I can? And still have that high impact candidate experience and get that quality candidate. And so a lot of times I honestly have been spending a lot of time, right now, in workshops going through processes, looking at the current state, looking at the future state and saying, what are some best practices and recommendations to make things better?Max: And you know, I mean balance of what do you keep in house and what do you outsource in town's acquisition. I think that there's always going to be pressure on both sides, on both ends of the spectrum. And you'll have some mild fluctuations that are driven by the economy.So in 2021, probably it'll be a little bit more outsourced than usual, simply because people are a little fearful of hiring in house. But there's never going to be a state of balance or a winner takes all kind of situation. There will  always be that tension, right? Between the two. Susan: Well a lot about it, I think, is how open-minded you are and how educated you are to know just what your options are? You know, If I was the CPO five years ago for the people of our chief HR office, I may create my HR team very differently than I would today. And knowing, you know, what are those outsourcing options? And many times it's like, just give us a chance, let us run a business case for you. Let me give you a couple of menu options and then figure out where in your culture it's going to work best.Sometimes you just need to get somebody who's got the open mind to say, I'm willing to change my structure or change the... Or it doesn't even have to be all or nothing. It can be a hybrid approach. One of the clients I'm working with now, they have a recruiting staff and they have some outsourced. To me, it's just, you know, don't stress yourself out, right? Like you can go at this at baby steps too, right?Max: Yeah. Yeah. And, in this model and, you know, thinking about this customer that you just mentioned, you're referring to us. Is there a division of tasks or what's an ideal division of tasks for a mid-sized customer view?I'm curious because I see RPO is coming in for executive level hiring volume, hiring for digital sourcing. And I suppose  the area which remains in-house then is most precious for the companies to retain. Is the onboarding experience where the closer you become to being an employee, the more, that experience needs to be in-house and managed internally, I suppose. And that would mean like the front of the funnel is perhaps easier to outsource, but maybe that's just a wrong thing to do.  It's not the business I'm in anyway. Susan: Well, and if you just look at the market right now with unemployment, you know, of course recruiting teams are getting more sophisticated, right? But employees we're finding or having reluctance to change jobs. And so some may be leading for 25 cents an hour or not so sure anymore that their jobs are gonna exist. So, you know, now when they're comparing their employment to maybe some security, that is causing a little bit of a challenge right now. So I feel like knowing your compensation... I get a lot of questions from folks that, you know, from accounts that are saying, I don't have really good compensation, pay structure. I don't have benchmarking data. Help me figure this out. And a lot of times we'll just say, well, either two things are happening. One, they're truly off on wages but they need to do the analysis piece. Or secondly, it's an easy thing to say, well, it's wages, right? It's compensation. And I really need to look at our benefits, or I need to really look and dig a root cause analysis. And so, you know, I find a lot of times where I'm helping them find, how do I get good real time data? That's, you know, is not survey data, right? From somebody else to know what your compensation should be. And then also helping them to dig deeper just to ask them so thoughtful questions. Because many times they're not even doing exit interviews. They're just hearing it by hearsay cause they can't keep up or they don't have a consistent process to get that feedback. So that's just another way of saying this. Another thing I'm hearing a little bit about. Max: And, when it comes to this compensation data, I suppose the ADP is in a very unique place, right? Where you have more data than anybody else. Susan: Right!Max: I mean, this data is private. I'm sure.  But if you don't put the name of their customer to it, you can analyze it, right? Susan: Right. So we have two things that have been coming out. We have compensation, benchmarking and then also pay equity. And you know, what we're able to do is take the 30 million employees and 90,000 organizations and take that pay data and aggregate it, make it anonymized and be able to have it filtered so we can get that data to be able to say, here's what the what your benchmarks are based on your industry, your size, and, you know, be able to run that. That's been very helpful. And the second piece that's trending now for me is, you know, we had pay equity. We created that several years ago, but now because of what's happened within the market is that the whole diversity equity inclusion topic. And now all of a sudden that's been a whole other elevated topic.Max:  And this year, I mean, it's gotten even more intention than usual. And where North America leaves, the rest of the world follows, for a lot of things related to systems. I've read and I could be wrong, but I've read that more than half of the world's enterprise software is purchased out of North America.And that includes most probably, recruiting software. And, and so, doctor I've heard a lot of companies complain about having to build systems, which are very US centric, which asks all of this data, needed to be asked to be in compliance with the US equal opportunity law. And that it's creating sort of artificial barriers for candidates outside of the US where some of these questions are not required. Have you come across these kinds of queries yourself? What is your recommendation for companies who want to be on one hand compliance in North America?Susan:  You have asked a very difficult question and I could write a book and then get the answers to you. And maybe I'll be a millionaire, but, I definitely think that. Being able to have technology that is simple to use that can be used across a lot of boundaries definitely key. And I also believe that you have to play to all the different compliance rules, you know, one of the things I know that we've been looking at is just, this is very new, you know, it's a very hot in discussion right now. It is, you know, diversity dashboards.And what information do you, and can you even share, right? And then how do you include unconscious bias, into this, you know, inclusion sentiment and what do you do with self identification? You know, all this is out of my expertise, but it's definitely playing into it. And the other piece is where do you have the human connection too? Where do you have the human in this whole candidate experience? And when do you start to leverage your artificial intelligence, your texting? You know, all that experience with your ATS platform. There's a lot happening there for sure!Max:  And these tools do help diversity because they expand the pool of people who can get in touch with you and, you know, just make it easier to be able to apply. And I think that ultimately serves the purpose of, expanding the town pool and creating opportunity for people you wouldn't normally consider, or that the hiring manager wouldn't consider.But well, my 2 cents is that there are more demands coming out of North America than any other market when it comes to capturing this kind of data and protecting against you know, let's say, setting up rules to protect the employer against liability, and it creates inefficiencies, outside of North America.And so it may be. You know, with the internet global markets being large enough now for any company, including ADP, maybe time to consider having, and implementations and different systems. One for global, one for North America to optimize the candidate experience. Susan:  You're helping me with the product roadmap here. But you know, I do a lot of speaking and research around the remote workforce and the work from anywhere, the WFA. And since you mentioned kind of across borders, I think that is also the bigger question. And you talked about increasing your candidate pool and your talent pipeline. Well, you know, that whole diversity piece is definitely a part of it.But also right now, I can't tell you the amount of conversations I've had with organizations. You're trying to do business cases right now to say, help me know from an ROI perspective if I have a certain part of my population that stays remote, or I phase them in longer, and I know you've probably heard this you're smart and I can see you now saying, I've heard this before! But just truly the trend of what it could do to getting your top talent. Because, I mean, I just saw a posting the other day and it said New York or something, and I'm like, well, do you have to be there in New York, but why do you put New York? If you don't really have to be in New York? Why is the job description saying New York? So either. You know, clearly communicate that you're shifting or the jobs descriptions just can't keep up with it. Max: It's almost like the Y2K bug, you know, where they're like, we can't update the machine. But most ATS's and job boards and CRM's. They don't know how to list a job as remote. I mean, I should know. We just built that in ourselves just this year, when we've been hiring remote workers for years. But it just doesn't compute. Susan: But I really hope, in a positive light that this truly would allow people who are interested in positions seriously, and for whatever reason don't want to move. Or they feel like now that, you know, you've tested the times, you're like, hey I've done this! Do I have the networks within the organization? Do I really need to be physically present in that city? And I hope that you at least have a conversation, right? A strategic conversation that somebody wouldn't eliminate me, but please still consider me. I hope that continues to broaden and happen and evolve.Max: Talking about the work from home and compensation to our areas of expertise for you Susan, I don't know if you saw the news, but  Reddit this week announced that they're going to eliminate cost of living payment compensation. And basically what this means is it doesn't matter if you live in, you know, San Francisco or in Idaho, you're going to get paid the same. You know, we're going to pay you based on performance only, because everybody's working from home anyway. Are you seeing other employers follow that model where we'll pay you the same regardless, and we're going to stop, you know, pegging salaries, on cost of living?Susan: I personally have not seen a big trend in that yet, but I definitely, I tell you Max, you must know my calendar. I've been trying to talk to our compensation director because I'm, you know, trying to get a little bit of a handle on... we had essential employees, you know, paying hazard pay and all these different types of pay differences that we've been going through.And I think compensation's going to get challenged. So I am all for rethinking our processes. Don't just assume everything's going to be the same, you know I love how people say, when we go back or, you know, whatever this new normal is, the new error that you reset and you rethink, you just don't go back. You actually can do things different. And I'm a proponent of that for sure.Max: I'd like to ask you some practical tips on how employers and recruiters can stand out in today's markets. We talked about the fact that people are holding still a little bit of this time but clearly the employment market has reheated and companies are hiring again.And so there's going to be more offers, coming on and a lot of choices. What do you think are the defining traits of a winning talent acquisition strategy as we're entering the end of 2020 coming into next year?  What are your recommendations for our audience?Susan: Well, you know, standing out and in a competitive market is always important and I always believe how people are treated during this time, they're going to remember. And if my manager cared for me, if our company did the right thing, they're going to remember. And I think that ties back to culture. And culture I can see is going to continue to be very important from a recruiting talent acquisition position.So I would really think about the bigger impact you can have with your recruiting strategy when it comes to culture. The second thing I would think about is, you know, there is a shift in evolving skill sets. So think about how you were investing in the development of your people. So normally we don't see those two necessarily two connected.But I think when it goes from organic growth, do I invest in you and provide you the training or source the talent? But a shift, definitely an evolving skill set, you know, ADP did some research and a few weeks ago they shared that one in five positions. The way they are today will not exist. So one in five, it's like 22%. So if jobs are shifting that often that they're not even gonna exist, keeping up with the skillsets is definitely going to be a challenge in how important development is. And the last one I'll leave you with is that the focus on branding, you know, around safety and employees first.So that is going to still be very critical in the upcoming months, to focus on building out that brand and the value proposition. That the recruiters all have the same message and just, what are you doing? Is it through videos? However, you're going to communicate that.I've seen a lot of good companies that have been doing a great job of saying, you know, this is what the environment looks like we're going to share it with you through video ahead of time. We're going to give you vignettes, whatever it is, but we're going to give you a snapshot of what it is for you. And that's how you're going to keep me either as a customer or even as an employee. So those would be the few tips I would have. What do you think Max? Max: Well, I think I've got some work to do. I certainly haven't communicated enough on safety and health, internally. I'm a bit of a Maverick myself and I have not been very precautious. I hope I didn't offend too many people. I certainly think that's, you know, personal health and safety is mostly a personal responsibility. But obviously the world is changing faster than I am. And I think your rights, employers would be well advised to follow your tips on that one.And of course to continue to invest in the employees, invest in your culture, all strong themes. So, well thank you very much, Dr. Hanold for spending a little bit of time with us. Susan: I have enjoyed it!Max:  Thank you! How do people get in touch with you? Susan:  Sure, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, Susan Hanold, or through Twitter app, Susan Hanold. And happy to be a resource to anybody if they've got any follow up questions, Max. Max: Fantastic. Well, I hope we reconnect, sometime next year under a new world! And, well, have fun today. I think today is election day. So I'll be watching the results at the American club here in Hong Kong, a few hours from now.Susan:  It's going to be a long night!Max: Entertaining for sure!Susan: Yes. Well, thank you so much, Max. Max: All right. Bye-bye.That was Dr. Susan Hanold, from ADP and their strategic advisory group. Lots to unpack in this interview. Lots of great tips, notably, how do we adjust our messaging in 2020 and next year around the employee culture? And how does it take care of safety and employees first? I hope you enjoyed it. And that you'll come back for more. Subscribe to the recruitment hackers podcast, and please share.

0603 SHORT 13 Min Susan Well Organized Riot Supply Lines And What Not To Do Caught In Riot by Kate Dalley

  In this episode, we have an interview with Susan Guthrie - Family Law Attorney, Mediator, and Host of Divorce & Beyond Podcast. Learn more about Susan here: https://divorceinabetterway.com/. Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help. Shawn: In the beginning of the process, as you're doing your research, one of the most important things you can do is figure out what are your options and what are the best ways to proceed during the divorce process. And know that the traditional method of divorce litigation is not the only method that exists when it comes to the divorce process, and you may have options. There's mediation, there's collaborative divorce. But in this particular episode, I want to discuss mediation, and to do that, I'm bringing in a great guest. Shawn: Her name is Susan Guthrie. She is a family law attorney with over 30 years of experience. And she's going to give us an overview of some of the key things about mediation to think about. She'll describe the process really well in this episode. And the other thing that's interesting about mediation is that there's the possibility for online mediation. And so, there may be some advantages to that as well. So, I hope you enjoy the interview with Susan Guthrie and also be sure to check out her podcast. She has a really good podcast that's called Divorce and Beyond. So, without further ado, here's my interview with Susan. Shawn: Today on the show I have with me Susan Guthrie. Susan is a family law attorney, mediator, and a podcast host of her own. Susan, welcome to the show. Susan: Thank you, Shawn. I'm so pleased to be here. Thank you for having me. Shawn: Susan, let's start with ... actually, I just want to start with the podcast so other people can listen to it. It's great. I recently did an interview on it. Why don't you tell us about your podcast? Susan: Thank you. Yes, and by the way, your episode is doing very, very well. People are always interested in Divorce and Their Money, it's called, my podcast is, Divorce and Beyond. It's really focused on, I've been a divorce attorney and a mediator for 30 years, so I bring that insider knowledge to the divorce process, and bring experts on to help with that, such as yourself. But I also am very much focused on the beyond, because divorce is really a finite time in your life or I certainly hope that it is, and you have a future ahead. So, many of our episodes are focused on preparing for the beyond, preparing for your future. Shawn: Great, and I encourage everyone to listen to it. There's lots of great episodes on there and you bring a great collection of interview guests on there as well. That's really interesting. Susan: Oh, thank you. Shawn: So, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background. I know you said you practiced for 30 years, but why don't you give us your credentials so to speak? So, we all understand who we're listening to. Susan: I have practiced as a family law attorney and still do to some degree for 30 years. My original State of practice was Connecticut, and I was located there in Fairfield County for 25 years or so, with a pretty traditional law practice. Then, branched out on my own and started moving around the country. I moved to California first, so I'm also licensed to practice law there. But I also segued my practice over to mediation, and in fact, that's all from a divorce perspective that I do in the process of helping couples negotiate and settle their divorce issues. I now live in Chicago. Susan: My practice is now entirely online, and I help people both through online divorce mediation services as well as legal coaching services around the world because I can do it online. I feel very lucky that I have been a divorce attorney and operating at a fairly high level. I dealt with a lot of high conflict and high net worth cases during my litigation practice. So, as you mentioned, I have access to a large number of really excellent experts because I've worked with them over the years in my practice, and I love bringing that wealth of knowledge and really that insider side of things to my listeners. Shawn: Yeah, I think that's great. You worked with a lot of high conflict people and now you do a lot of mediation work. Why did you make that shift? Susan: Yeah. So, it was sort of two fold. But really what it boiled down to, and for anyone who's seen the movie that's out right now, Marriage Story, you will understand I think what I'm talking about. But I got involved in divorce litigation when I first got out of law school, because frankly 30 years ago, that's really all that was out there. The litigation process is very adversarial. It is set up on a party A versus party B platform like any other lawsuit. Unfortunately, when you're talking about restructuring families, that is not a very good model for success. Susan: Unfortunately, that process actually drives people further apart, and then, when they find themselves post-divorce needing to co-parent or communicate, the animosity and the adversity that was brought up during the divorce and exacerbated during the litigation process really only makes it worse. It sets up an ongoing conflict cycle. So, mediation is an opportunity for parties to sit down, couples to sit down, and work together in a more cooperative fashion to communicate and restructure their family in a way that works best for all of them. Susan: It's not based on that win lose model, and so now having worked in both formats, the reason I only do mediation at this point is because the results for clients are so much better. Shawn: Let's start by defining what is mediation versus litigation. Can you just give us an overview of what that means, what that process looks like, how it differs? Susan: Sure, and actually that's a great place to start because there is a great deal of misunderstanding at times for people when it comes to mediation. I always hear it called the kinder, gentler way to divorce, or the kumbaya method of divorce. I will tell you, divorce mediation, like any process that you would go through to negotiate or resolve the issues of a divorce, it takes effort. It has its moments where it's not an easy process, but divorce mediation is based upon a principle of the two parties sitting down with a neutral professional, that could be an attorney like myself. It could be a financial professional. Susan: I know a lot of professionals who are financial advisors, who also are mediators, or therapists, or other professionals, but they sit down with a trained professional who's there to help them identify the issues that they need to resolve in the divorce, to give them an understanding of the law, and context, and nuance around those issues. Then, really importantly, to support both of them in having the difficult conversations that need to be had on how those issues are going to be resolved, with an eye to identifying what works best for all of them. Again, we're always in mediation looking for the third solution. Susan: We're not looking for the win for one side and a loss for the other. We're looking for that third solution that allows everyone to get as much of what they want on a needs base or interest based perspective, so that everyone walks away with a decision and with agreements that incorporate as much as possible what they've chosen that they can and cannot live with. Shawn: Let's give a concrete example of that, and I'm just thinking of, I want to just use a very simple case. Let's just say we have a house, a couple of retirement accounts, a couple of cars. How would I know when to use mediation and what would that look like for me versus going the traditional route and what would that mediation process look like start to finish? Susan: The two processes, they look similar because any method that you're going to use to resolve your divorce is going to sort of go through the same stages. You're going to have the quantifying or the pulling together of information stage. In litigation, we call that discovery. In mediation, we call it information gathering phase, but then you're going to discuss the issues. Then, you're going to come to agreement on the issues in 95% of the cases. So, the difference with mediation is, in litigation everything is done on a compulsory manner and fashion. Motions are filed, requests for orders are made, requests for production are made. Susan: Everything has time limits, and rules, and things are done because you are under court orders to do them. The difference is, in mediation, everything is done by agreement, including the fact that the parties are in mediation at all. Mediation is 100% voluntary as opposed to litigation, which people can be dragged kicking and screaming into, or if they ignore it, it's going to happen without them. So, the mediation process itself, just as a litigation case would start, does start with the information gathering. But it's not done in that fashion where you exchange compulsory requests for information. Susan: We sit down with your mediator, with the two clients, and compile all of the necessary information by agreement that we're going to do that as a part of the transparency of the process. That has a lot of different effects. The biggest one being it takes much less time to pull together all the information because we are talking about what everyone needs to see, wants to see, and agreeing to pull it together. It's also much less expensive because the parties are not utilizing legal counsel, filing of motions, all of which that they pay their attorneys for. Susan: It's usually much more successful, because nobody will drag their feet usually in the same fashion because, again, they've agreed that they're coming to the table to work through the process. So, in many ways, I've seen litigation cases where we have literally spent years, you mentioned a simple case where there's a house and some accounts, et cetera, that could take a relatively short period of time with that type of state to value things, because you have either written statements or you can get an appraisal. But when you get into some more complicated cases, or where there's a family owned business, or a cash business, or something of that nature, I've had cases drag out forever in the discovery process because it's so hard to get the information exchange, and that really just doesn't happen in the mediation setting. Shawn: You covered a lot of things that I have some kind of followup questions on. One of them that comes up, I hear every week or so is, oftentimes one party may not be as forthcoming as they should be during mediation. How does one handle that? Susan: So, that happens. Definitely it happens in litigation as well. So, the first thing to remember is, because mediation is by agreement, both of the parties have a reason or reasons why they have agreed to come to the negotiation table in mediation. Mediation tends to move much more quickly than litigation, so maybe time is an issue for them. It's usually infinitely less expensive. Maybe money is an issue for them. Maybe they feel it's a better forum for working through the issues. Whatever their motivations are, that brought them to the table, are the motivations that will also compel people to be forthcoming with the information that is required. Susan: Because what happens is if people do not come forth with requested information, the mediation process comes to a halt. Because if you are sitting at a table and one party does not feel they have the information that they need in order to make the decisions or the agreements that need to be made, the process can't move forward. You are putting people in the position, by making that choice not to be forthcoming, you're putting the other side in the position of having to take you into litigation. Susan: Having to compel your discovery as we were talking about earlier with the motions, and the depositions, and all of that. So, usually, it takes the mediator reminding the parties why they're there, that this is a voluntary process. They agreed to be involved in it, and failure to comply with reasonable requests for information are just by necessity going to bring the process to a conclusion. Shawn: I think that makes sense. I want to ask some technical questions about mediation, or just some basic questions is, you're a mediator and you're also an attorney, do the parties also have their own attorneys? How does that work? Who's actually in these mediation sessions? Susan: The majority of my mediation sessions are just the two people who are going through the process. That is not to say that they don't have outside consulting professionals, and I am very much a believer in the team approach to divorce. I think that everyone usually will need some sort of support as they go through the mediation or divorce process, whatever they're going through. That can include a consulting attorney, because as you point out, I am an attorney, but when I am operating as a mediator, I am not representing either of the parties. Susan: That would be an ethical breach. You can't, as an attorney, represent both sides of an equation. There's a conflict of interest there. So, your mediator, even if they're an attorney, is there as a neutral professional to support both parties. But often, people will need some outside legal advice, and it can be very, very helpful to the mediation process for them to have a good professional that they can go to. Other professionals are people like you CDFAs. I highly recommend using a certified divorce financial analyst, or a financial support team, especially in those cases. Susan: You mentioned that there are often one side of an equation in a divorce where they're not forthcoming with information. There's another paradigm that comes up all the time where we have one party who's pretty financially savvy and the other one who is not, and so, they feel very disempowered in making decisions. So, getting them some support by getting them a financial advisor or getting them a financial planner analyst, can be very helpful to the mediation process because it helps to support them and educate them as they go through. Another person that's often brought in is a therapist. Susan: If we have parenting issues, and maybe we have an issue with special needs for a child or developmental issues around the child's upbringing. So, I very much believe in the team approach to divorce, the divorce process as a whole, and certainly in mediation. Shawn: If I'm thinking about the mediation process, sometimes people think, is it just one meeting in an afternoon, is it multiple meetings? How does that work? Susan: Generally, it's a series of meetings. My mediations tend to be scheduled for two hours at a time, and that is because in two hours we usually can make some headway, start talking about real issues, and making proposals, and making agreements. But beyond two hours, it's an emotional context, right? You're talking about your kids, you're talking about your money, you're talking about separating all those things. So, the emotional content is very fatiguing. You are either in the same room, or if you are with me mediating, you're in the same Zoom meeting, and two hours tends to be where people sort of burn out. Susan: And what I don't want is my clients making decisions out of fatigue, or just saying because they're just so tired and they want to move on saying, "Fine, I'll do that." Because what ends up happening is they then leave the mediation, that session, come back to the next one having thought about it and they will backtrack. And that's harmful to the process only because now we have trust issues, "Well, you said you would do it. I relied upon that and now you're backtracking." So, it's better to do it in bite sized chunks that you can process, take your time, and move through it. Susan: Usually, it depends on the couple. It's usually a few three, two-hour sessions. It can be certainly more than that. I've had cases move faster. There are other types of mediations, so another type of mediation for family cases that people will be acquainted with is a case that's been in the litigation process all along. They're usually close to the courtroom door for trial, and they will, as what I call last ditch effort, resort, to sitting with a mediator for sometimes a full day session to try and resolve those last outstanding issues. Susan: In those cases, usually the attorneys who have been representing the clients all along are involved, and those usually tend to be one marathon type, long day type session. But for people who start in mediation, their divorce process from the start is in mediation, usually two, maybe three-hour sessions and a few of those, but infinitely faster. I will tell you, most of my divorce mediations are completed before the sixth month. California has a six-month waiting period. Connecticut has a 90-day waiting period. Susan: Those are my States of licensure, and we're definitely usually done by the sixth month mark in California, three months ... It just depends on the complications of the issues. Shawn: That's good to know, and if I'm sitting at home listening to this or wherever I may be listening to this, how do I know whether I can go down the mediation route? What kind of things should I be thinking about to say and maybe even conversations I might need to have with my spouse in terms of, "This is an approach that may work for us." Susan: That's another great question, because that's one of my key things I want people to know, that your best approach to divorce is to try mediation in most cases from the beginning. Because if it doesn't work, you always have litigation to fall back on. That will always be there for you. But knowing that it's a possibility at the beginning and giving it a try for all of the reasons of all of the benefits that it has, is something that I love for people to know from the very beginning. So, some of the things to be thinking about are, do you have the ability to self advocate? Susan: And if you don't feel that you do, can you find support to help you with that? There are a lot of amazing divorce coaches, legal coaches like myself. I work with a number of people going through mediation, helping them to strategize what they're looking for. I was just listening to one of your podcast episodes and you mentioned the question, what do you want? That's a huge question when you go into a mediation. You don't go into any process of divorce without knowing where you want to go, or the process is going to happen to you rather than you being an active participant in it. Susan: But that's really the question, is do you have the wherewithal to sit down and do the work that needs to be done with the help of your mediator? And to bring your spouse to the table, people ask me all the time, "Well, I'd love to do mediation. It's less expensive, it's less stressful, it's less time consuming, it's less adversarial. All of those things, it's better. It helps us create communication pathways for our kids so that we can co-parent in the future." All of those are benefits and those are actually the things that help you to talk to your spouse about trying mediation. Susan: Because the thing I always tell people is, the one thing that we do know after having been married to someone is usually what their interests are. And usually, there's one or more benefit of mediation that will appeal to them. Often, it's the cost savings. You and I both know the average divorce in the United States is in the 20s of thousands of dollars per person these days to litigate. Many people, even if they have that kind of money laying around, don't want to spend that kind of money on getting divorce. By the way, it can go much, much higher than that. Mediation is much less expensive. Susan: It tends to be much less time consuming, less stressful. You have much more control over the process. So, knowing whatever you know about your spouse and what would appeal to them, that is usually the best way to approach them and ask them to consider the process. Shawn: That make sense, and can someone come to you for select issues in a divorce? So, let's just say there's 10 things to figure out and they agree upon seven of them, but there's three issues that they still haven't quite resolved yet. Would mediation work for that? Susan: Oh, absolutely. In fact, I often work with couples who maybe have worked out the financial side, but they need help with the parenting plan or vice versa. They know what they want to do parenting wise, but there are certain issues on the side of the finances that they just can't quite resolve. So, you can bring limited issues to mediation. Any sort of any issue can be mediated. Many people who have gone through divorce but then after the divorce there's been a change of circumstances. Someone loses their job, someone gets a big raise, something with the kids comes up and you need to change your parenting plan because children aren't static. Susan: I often mediate that post-dissolution type matter as well. The only thing I would caution, and I just don't want people, because attorneys and mediators are accused often of ramping up, making problems in a divorce that didn't need to be there. What happens sometimes, when a couple comes to a mediator or an attorney to work out issues and they think they've resolved a bunch of them, but they have a couple that still need to be resolved. The thing with a divorce settlement is it's a puzzle. It's not separate blocks of issues. Susan: Everything works together, right? It's a family. So, the money, and the kids, and the house, and all of those things work together. So, sometimes the outstanding issues will have an impact on those issues that they feel they have resolved. So, some of those issues may need to be reworked or looked at again if they don't fit into the overall puzzle context. But, again, that's where mediation is great because you can sit down and talk about, in the broad picture, why maybe perhaps something that they thought they wanted to do isn't going to work in light of another aspect of their settlement that they also would like to accomplish. Shawn: Yeah, that's a good point, is that sometimes it's very hard to isolate particular issues in a divorce, because if you pull on one thing or adjust one thing, it can affect every other item. Susan: Exactly. Shawn: It may work in certain cases, but you have to be open to shifting or changing other parts of the big picture when you do that. Susan: Absolutely. I always tell my clients in mediation, I work off a written agenda. I find people like the visual of an agenda that outlines all of their issues, and then I take notes on it for them as we're going along. I always tell them, although an agenda is a linear thing and item one, item two, item three, and even if we're going to move through it in that order, it doesn't mean that we have to resolve issue one in order to move on to issue two. Often, it's, let's discuss issue one, come up with some possibilities, and then table issue one and work on the next issues because in the end, all of them need to work together. Susan: As an example, someone often wants to keep the marital residence, and both sides may be open to that and may have reasons why they want that to happen. But until you get into the financial side, with support and asset distribution and debt distribution, you may not know if that person can actually afford to maintain the property. So, that's a very common question that will come up, where we have to sort of resolve the support issues and the financial issues in order to know if what they want to do with the house is actually going to work. Shawn: That's great. One last question, which is, at least as it pertains to the mediation, is you do online mediation work. I know you've done in person, of course, work as well. How do you find the difference between just the setting, be it a video call versus everyone's huddled in a conference room kind of atmosphere? Can you just kind of give us your pros, cons, thoughts about that? Susan: Yeah. It's interesting because I do now have an entirely online practice, and I have to say, especially for divorce mediation, I've actually found that the parties having the ability to have a little bit of space, because they do not need to be in the same physical location in order to mediate online, that's actually been a benefit for most of my clients. That they feel more able to emotionally deal with the conversations that need to be had as opposed to sitting just a few feet away from each other in the same room. Susan: I've had many people, when I had a brick and mortar practice, who would come and I would meet with a couple for a consult to just decide if they wanted to mediate. And in the end, it would come down to one of them saying, "I loved all the benefits, but I just emotionally don't feel like I can sit in the same room with my spouse and do this at this moment in time." Because as we know, divorce, yes it is a financial transaction, we're talking about money, et cetera. But in reality, it is an emotional transaction as well. Susan: And so, the video context gives people a little more space, but still you have the ability to see the other person because 85% of our communication is visual, and most of that is our facial expressions and voice. What we say and how we say it, our voice inflections. So, much of that is still readily available in the online context. So, for me, in my experiences, it's actually been a benefit to the mediation process, and most clients are thrilled to be online. They don't have to sit in traffic. They don't have to get a babysitter. They don't have to leave work early. Susan: I know you work online quite a bit and so you know some of those benefits. It has translated very well to the mediation practice. In fact, I train other mediators in how to conduct their mediations online, because this is such a quickly growing aspect of the mediation practice. My colleagues are fascinated by it. Shawn: Yeah, and I think that's one of the hardest things is when you are getting divorced, having to be three feet away from the person you're getting divorced from, staring right at them the whole time. It can make the emotional side of things amplify them quite a bit, just being in the same room. They're funny in retrospect even from the client's perspective, but a lot of times where someone yells, stomps out, runs out of the room, just can't stand being in person with that person they're getting divorced from. Shawn: It's divorce and it's not a pleasant process to begin with. This isn't a civil suit business dispute. So, I think there are a lot of advantages to the online perspective for people who might not have considered it as well, just from that. Susan: Yeah, the ability to, in any way that we can, keep the emotional content a little at a lower level is beneficial to the process. Because the minute people start making decisions from that emotional place, from anger, from fear, from hurt, whatever, divorce unfortunately doesn't embody usually a lot of positive emotions. It's usually a lot of negative emotional content, and the higher that level, the harder it is for people to make rational reason decisions. As you know, these are decisions that are going to live with you, and your family, and your children for years to come. Susan: So, you want to make them from the best emotional place possible, and I'm not saying that it's always easy. But another thing that I do is I incorporate mindfulness techniques into my mediation practice and encourage my clients to have a mindfulness practice if they're open to that, only because it does help. When the emotions start to rise up, to be able to take that step back and find some space. It's really important to be able to think clearly, and that's another reason, going back to where I said the sessions are usually only about two hours long. Susan: I want people making decisions in a space where they feel that those decisions were good ones, or at least made from a reasonable place and that they can live with them. Shawn: That's excellent and thank you for coming on and explaining the basics and the essential parts of mediation. It's not a subject that I talk about too often on my podcast. Why don't you give us the best way to contact you and to learn more? Hopefully, have people potentially work with you in the future if mediation or other services are right for them. Susan: Absolutely. Pretty much everything about me can be found on my website, which is divorceinabetterway.com. My email is susan@divorceinabetterway.com. I encourage anyone who's going through divorce to take a look at the website. I have a lot of curated resources, most of them free, or special discounts that guests on my podcast have offered. I have your book going up on my website shortly, so that people can find it who have listened to the podcast, or go there. But I like to bring as much information to people because that is so empowering in the divorce process. Susan: Get your education, get your information. So, divorceinabetterway.com, and then also the podcast has its own website which can be found through Divorce in a Better Way, or at divorceandbeyondpod.com. Shawn: And outside of mediation you were telling me you do a few other services. Just so people can know, can you describe those? Susan: Yeah, so one of my biggest areas of practice at the moment is legal coaching, which is a little bit different than divorce coaching, because what I'm doing is getting involved in cases. Usually, they're either high conflict cases, where someone is dealing with a high conflict ex that can be a narcissist, a borderline personality disordered person, or just someone who is very difficult to deal with, or high net worth cases. I'm helping the client to learn to manage those relationships, manage the communication so that they can have as much control over their lives as possible. Susan: I help with strategizing, with negotiation strategies. I've been a divorce attorney for 30 years. I negotiate every day of my life. I have to stop myself from doing it in the grocery line because it's so second nature for me. But your average person, unless they have negotiation in their business life, that's not a normal, that's not something that many people are comfortable with. So, I work with just a lot of clients on how to identify what they want and then how to strategize and negotiate to get that in the divorce process. I work with people all around the world in that context. I have clients across this country, Australia, Europe, Canada, all over. Shawn: Well, Susan, thank you very much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed the conversation and I hope the listeners will, too. Susan: Well, and thank you so much for having me, and thank you for coming on my show. Again, I loved that episode and so do my listeners. So, thank you. Shawn: Now, before you go, I want to make sure you get some really important information. I'm going to tell you about a few things that maybe of interest to you. First as a favor, is if you could leave a review, if you're on the iTunes store, leave a review on iTunes, or if you search Divorce and Your Money on a website called Trustpilot or on Google, you can leave a review there. It's quick, it's anonymous. It only takes a few seconds and I really, really appreciate your feedback. I have lots of reviews on iTunes and on Trustpilot, and I appreciate hearing your stories. Shawn: Also, on divorceandyourmoney.com, you can get lots of great information. Of course, you can book a 30-minute strategy session directly with me. There's two types of strategy calls you can book, just a normal strategy session, where we discuss the questions that are most pressing to you regardless of where you are in the divorce process, be at the beginning, towards the end, or in the middle. It doesn't really matter. There's lots of great information we can cover during that strategy call. Also, we have a document review call. Shawn: It's been one of the biggest things that we've done over the past year, which is you can send me your documents, be it your financial affidavit, a settlement agreement, or other documents that you would like for me to review. Then, I review those in advance of the call and then we get to discuss them in-depth as part of a strategy session and get specific answers to some of the specific documents and things that you are considering. Also, for those who need ongoing support, we do have a few options for ongoing support, but regardless, it all starts with a coaching call that you can book at divorceandyourmoney.com. Shawn: Don't forget to also get a copy of my new book. It's called Divorce and Your Money: How to Avoid Costly Divorce Mistakes. It's available on my website, or also on Amazon. You just look me up and make sure you get the new edition. It is filled with excellent information regarding the divorce process, and I know that you will find it helpful. Once you've read the book, be sure to leave a review. That really helps me. I appreciate your feedback and it also helps other people as they try and find this information. And finally, last but not least by any means is on the store at divorceandyourmoney.com, if you click on the store button, you can get access to the full archive of podcast episodes. Shawn: There's over 200 episodes, and what's great about the store link is that the episodes are organized in neat buckets, and they're organized by topic. So, it's very easy to follow along with the information, and it is easy to pick out the key topics that matter most to you. You can get all of those podcast episodes in the store. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Shawn Leamon, MBA and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. Take care.    

Networking with Local Nonprofits in Central Virginia Read the Transcript Hugh Ballou: This is a special edition today of The Nonprofit Exchange. I am attending a nonprofit trade show and networking event, Central Virginia Business Coalition. I'm here with Heather Alto. Heather, what's your vision for this event today? Heather Alto: Basically, our vision for this event, we decided to put about a community event focused on nonprofit organizations because they don't really have the avenue to get out and do bigger business expos due to the cost. We wanted to have a one-stop shop where people could come in and learn about the nonprofits in our area. A lot of this is about awareness, but also it's a place where people could bring donations today, whether it's food or coats or household items. Anything like that. This is the place to do it. A one-stop area where you can learn, volunteer, and donate. Hugh: We've just gotten acquainted. I'm going to go around and visit with some of the nonprofits here. Thank you, Heather. Heather: Thank you. Hugh: I'm going to let them tell a little bit about what they do and why they're doing it. Here's Tracy. Tell them who you are and what this organization is that you represent. Tracye Dixon: I'm Tracey Dixon. I'm executive director at Lynchburg Daily Bread. Hugh is my friend from the rotary club. My real job is a soup kitchen in downtown Lynchburg. We are looking for canned sweet potatoes, green beans, and gravy for our Thanksgiving meal. If anybody would like to help with that, we would love and appreciate it. Hugh: Tracey is a legend here. She's very active. We happen to be in the city that's got some of the highest poverty in the commonwealth of Virginia. Tracey: It's true. Hugh: We have a lot of hungry people. She and her team and a whole lot of volunteers are very active all the time. Tracey: Every day. We are open every day of the year. We'll be open on Christmas because people need to eat on Christmas, too. Grateful for your support, Hugh. Thanks for being here. Hugh: Blessings. We have people watching from all over, wondering what's going on here. So we're going to go to another one. Hope for today. Help and Hope. Tell us who you are and what your organization is. This is our first time we've met. What is this organization, and who are you? Sam: This is World Hope. I'm Sam. Sarah Johnson: I'm Sarah. Sam: And we are a humanitarian organization raising money to sponsor kids, get them education, clean water, clothing. We help build churches and schools, bring clean water to villages. Sarah: Our biggest thing that we do is child sponsorship. People can rescue a child out of poverty and get them education, clean food, and water for $35 a month. We have children in over 20 countries. 11,000 children right now. Hugh: How many? Sarah: I think it's between 10 and 11,000 children in our programs around the world. Hugh: Around the world? Sarah: Yes. Hugh: We're in central Virginia. This is Lynchburg. We are reaching out to the world. SynerVision Leadership Foundation supports charities all over the world. We support with the infrastructure of leadership development, board development, funding. I'm going around the trade show and giving you some exposure. This is a show we do every week called The Nonprofit Exchange. Thanks for sharing your ideas. Somebody somewhere will know somebody in one of your areas. Where do they find you? what's the URL? Sarah: WorldHelp.net Hugh: WorldHelp.net. Thank you for sharing. Let's see who else is here and what they're doing. I talked to you all before. These couple charming ladies. Tell me about this charity. It's really special. Claire Parker Foundation. Bethany Egland: I'm Bethany, and I'm the director of programs and family services at the Claire Parker Foundation. We support families that have children with cancer and have partnered hospitals all across the region. We're in 15 different ones from Tennessee to Texas, which is pretty incredible. We have different programs that we provide from the beginning of the diagnosis to the end. A bunch of different programs to keep kids occupied in the hospital and to support families through the journey financially, emotionally, and even to the end, if they end up losing a child, we have support in that areas as well. Hugh: We have wonderful gift kits here for the children and families. Bethany: This is their care box they get right after diagnosis. This is our birthday box to celebrate birthdays. They get a banner, a birthday pillowcase, and a gift card to Amazon. Hugh: Where can they find Claire Parker on the Internet? Bethany: ClaireParkerFoundation.org. We're on Facebook and Instagram. Hugh: I just captured somebody you may know also. Jessica Arrington. What's the organization that you work with? What do you do there? Jessica Arrington: Patrick Henry Family Services. I am the volunteer coordinator. I help with all our program ministries to make sure we have the support we need and our mission and vision stay going.   Hugh: What do you do? Who do you do it for? Jessica: Volunteer coordinator for Patrick Henry Family Services. I work with all the volunteers, with every program ministry. Hugh: Tell us about Patrick Henry. Jessica: We have several program ministries such as Save Family for Children, expanded families, Vision 30, that makes sure every child is in a safe home, in a safe environment wrapped around by the community by 2030. We believe that can happen with your help, partners, agencies, churches, and families. We also have our Hat Creek Camp and our counseling services and so much more. Hugh: Jessica is also a friend from the local rotary. She's been on our show before with the program Power of We. Jessica: Power of We Lynchburg. Hugh: Let's go look at your banner for Patrick Henry. Who's this person? Jessica: This is Nicolette. Nicolette: Nice to meet you, Facebook. Jessica:  She works with our girls' and boys' homes. We have Lisa. Hugh: What does Lisa do? Lisa: I'm the case manager for residential care.   Hugh: And this is Patrick Henry Family Services. They can find you online at PatrickHenry.org. Thank you. Here's Billy. Billy was on The Nonprofit Exchange recently. Billy told the story about the sports outreach. They know your story. Thank you. Here is Humankind. Do you want to share? Tell us who you are and what Humankind is. Tiffany Rodriguez: I am Tiffany Rodriguez. I am in the treatment foster care. Humankind has over 20 different programs. We are community outreach. Our main office is here in Lynchburg, but we also service other areas throughout Virginia. We have anywhere from counseling, treatment, foster care, community outreach. We work with kids who have autism. There is also a daycare. This is one of our new treatment foster care case workers. This is Ashley, and we are very happy to add her to our team. We are excited to be part of this opportunity as well. Thanks so much for having us. Hugh: Where can people find Humankind online? Tiffany: If they go to Humankind.org, then you'll be able to see all of our resources that we have. If you have any specific questions, you can always email us. Hugh: It's a worthy work place. Thank you for sharing with us. Why don't you tell people who you are and what is this organization that you represent? Sandra Bermudez: I'm Sandra Bermudez. I am representing Braley & Thompson Foster Care in central Virginia. We have over nine offices in the state of Virginia. My office is in Lynchburg. We have been in business for over 30 years in Virginia for children and families. We work with children 0-17 and provide foster families. If you are interested in becoming a foster family, you can visit us at BraleyThompson.com.   Hugh: Love it. Thank you for being here today. Here's one called Well of Grace. Who is this back here? Susan. What is this organization, and what does it do? Susan: Well of Grace helps ladies who have had breast surgery. We help with items their insurance may not pay or does not totally cover. That could be a lymphedema sleeve, whatever they need. We help them get those items.   Hugh: This is a lot of good people doing good work here. Where can they find Well of Grace online? Susan: They can find it at WellofGrace.org. They can also go through Absolute Perfection, who are the people who support our nonprofit. Hugh: WellofGrace.org. Thank you, Susan. Amazement Square. I've been to your organization with grandchildren. Tell them who you are. Jamie Shetley: Sure. I'm Jamie Shetley. I am the manager of donor and member relations of Amazement Square. We are here today talking about the 50% of work that we do that people don't know about, which is outside of the museum. We are talking about sponsorships for school programs. We are talking about our new initiative, Amazing Children Smart Beginnings, which is sponsored with a grant from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. We are talking about our new education center. All sorts of things going on. Hugh: Amazement Square is in what used to be a old warehouse. One time, Lynchburg was the second wealthiest city in the country. We had a lot of tobacco and leather warehouses in town, which are now dormant. Now, there's a bunch of new things. One of them is quite amazing. I have been there twice at least with grandchildren, which was an excuse for me to play. It's quite an amazing thing. Sometime, Lynchburg Symphony will do something musical with you. Jamie: Our new education center is open now. It has a huge exhibit space. It can seat over 350 people. We have the space for it. We just want people to know this space is available. Hugh: Where can people find you online? Jamie: AmazementSquare.org. Hugh: Tell us who you are and what do you represent? Susan Campbell: I'm Susan Campbell, the executive director of the Blue Ridge Pregnancy Center. This is Julia and Julie. They're both on staff at BRPC. We are a crisis pregnancy center. We help the woman who is in crisis and in need for options and counseling for unplanned pregnancy. Hugh: A lot of important work. Where can people find you online? Susan: BRPCFriends.org. We are located right next to Lynchburg General Hospital, one street over on Thompson Drive. Hugh: Thank you. There is quite a few amazing people doing amazing stuff. This is Elise. tell them who you are and what the organization is about. Elise Spontarelli: Elise Spontarelli with Vector Space. We are a community maker space. We have 12,000 square feet of tools: woodworking, blacksmithing, metalworking, 3D printers, laser cutters, sewing, all the tools. We do membership for adults so you can use those tools. We do safety training, and then we set you free on the tools. We do workshops to teach the tools. We do STEM education with high schoolers. Some cool projects. Hugh: I only found out recently about maker spaces. Describe what a maker space is. It's quite amazing. Elise: Thank you. It's a space for people to collaborate. A lot of folks have maybe a woodshop at home or some welding equipment or a 3D printer on their desk, but nobody has all of the tools together. Our members are everyone from engineers to fine artists. We have teachers and entrepreneurs and all sorts of folks with different backgrounds and different skills, coming together and learning together and teaching each other. A big part of our membership is member meet-ups and peer learning. Folks are teaching the skills they know and learning from other people new skills. We bring those together in cool ways. And teaching kids how to use these tools, too. Hugh: They're super cool. It's part craft, part art. Where can people find Vector Space online? Elise: Vector-Space.org. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. If they want to come out and see us, the first Friday of every month, we do an open house from 5-8pm. Hugh: We're in Lynchburg, Virginia. Every first Friday, it's a happening place downtown with art galleries and the craft space and maker space is beyond that. Thank you for sharing. Elise: Thanks, Hugh. Hugh: That's quite an amazing entity. Let's find somebody who's free. Hey, there. I've seen you before. But I forgot. Can you stand up and talk? She has healthy options. Everyone has sugar-loaded candy. Tell people who you are and what is it you're doing here? What is this organization? Jane Massey: I am Jane Massey with the Alzheimer's Association in Central and Western Virginia. This is Ginny Simmons. Ginny serves on our walk planning committee. The Alzheimer's Association is a nonprofit that is trying to find a cure for Alzheimer's. That is basically our vision: a world without Alzheimer's Disease. Hugh: Say your vision. Jane: A world without Alzheimer's Disease. Hugh: I was just working on vision statements for my nonprofit. It's really hard. That is a picture: a world without Alzheimer's. Here's a lesson right here. A vision is a picture of what it looks like. You can say that without reading it. Jane: Yes, I can. It's a really important vision statement. The Alzheimer's Association, we are the largest nonprofit organization in the world providing research. We are only #3 behind the Chinese government and the U.S. government in funding research. Our goal is to fight a cure, sustainable ways to live with the disease by 2025. We have an aggressive format going on. Our goal is to do it. We currently provide international research as well as local programs and services. One of our biggest events to raise awareness and funds is our walk to end Alzheimer's. That's where Ginny comes in. Ginny is our logistics chair. Want to share your experience about being on the committee? Ginny Simpson: Sure. I have been on the committee now with the Alzheimer's Association for probably 15+ years or so. I've been very involved. I don't have a personal connection, but I professionally work with those affected with dementia and Alzheimer's. It's been a joy and a pleasure working and serving the community trying to find a cure for this terrible disease. Hugh: There are probably walks all over the country. Ginny: Yes, there are. Hugh: Where can people find out more about Alzheimer's Association? Jane: Alz.org. One of the things I do want to share that a lot of people don't realize is that the Alzheimer's Association not only covers and manages Alzheimer's, which is the most common form of dementia, but we cover all dementias. We have an award-winning website where you can find information about vascular dementia, Parkinson's disease because those are forms of dementia. Hugh: If people don't know if they have something, can they or their family go and find out? Jane: Yes, they can go to the website. One of the things, if somebody is concerned about having some forgetfulness that is affecting your daily life, the first thing we recommend is seeing a doctor. Sometimes, it's not Alzheimer's. It can be something as easy as an infection, or it might be some drug interactions that are not working properly. That can cause memory issues. It's really important to get that checked out. Hugh: Great, thank you. Go to Alz.org. Easy. Thank you for your good work. Who are you? Here is their banner. Tell us who you are. What is this organization about? Andy Cohen: I'm Andy Cohen. I'm the executive director of Harmony Day Support. We have services for adults with disabilities all throughout the day so they can live as autonomously as we do every single day. We're excited about the opportunity to help them grow socially, academically, athletically, spiritually, all over. We have about 9,600 individuals we serve here locally. We are in the process of implementing and adding new services daily. Hugh: Is this a local organization? Andy: Local. Hugh: We're in central Virginia. You might know somebody here. It's HarmonyDaySupport.org. Thank you. Tell us who you are. What is this organization? Why does it exist? Adam Pavao: My name is Adam Pavao. I am the executive director of foster care services at Impact Living Services. We exist to serve youth aging out of foster care and youth in foster care. We're a relatively young nonprofit. Started in 2012 just in Lynchburg, Virginia to work with those kids aging out. Youth aging out of foster care have really bad outcomes. One in four are incarcerated before 21. One in five are homeless within a year. 71% of girls get pregnant before the age of 21. Less than 4% graduate from college. We have apartments and town homes we place them in. We get connected to employment and education and teach them how to be adults. We also have a foster care program where we work with teens in foster care. That population has a hard time getting placed with families. We believe kids should be with families and kids should have connections. We work with those families to train them, to provide support to them to make sure those kids and teens are in the home. We have offices in Lynchburg, Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Richmond. Hugh: Those are Virginia cities. This is a nice banner they have. A little bit about what they do here. What is the URL for your website? Adam: It is ImpactLivingServices.org. Hugh: Thank you, sir. Allison Zuba: These are some of the best nonprofit leaders in Lynchburg. Hugh: Who are you? Allison: I'm Allison Zuba. Hugh: Who are you? Linda Bright: I'm Linda Bright, the program manager for Bedford Ride. Vicky Craig: I'm Vicky Craig, the public relations coordinator for the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living, your area agency on aging. Hugh: Whoa, my peer group. Allison: I'm Allison Zuba. I'm the executive director at the Adult Care Center, the best place to spend your day in Lynchburg. Hugh: Adult Care Center. Do you all work together? Or I just happened to catch you together. Allison: We don't get to work together a lot, but we certainly support each other's organizations. Hugh: Tell us about Adult Care Center. Tell us about CVACL. Allison: The Adult Care Center has folks who need a little extra help and still want to live at home, but have a great place to be during the day. Folks come to us Monday through Friday, play games, have great food, and enjoy themselves immensely. Laughter is the key to the day here. Hugh: My wife might be calling you. Tell us about this organization. Linda: Bedford Ride, we are a program of the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living. We do non-emergency medical training and transportation for Bedford residents who are unable to drive. All of our drivers are carefully vetted volunteers. We have over 90 volunteers, 20 wheelchair accessible vans, and five cars. Hugh: We are in central Virginia. Bedford is the next town over. Look at this. Be a Santa to a Senior. Vicky: Right now, at the Central Virginia Alliance for Community Living, we are doing a Be a Santa to a Senior program. That is when we provide Christmas presents for our clients and others throughout the area. We do need people to come and take our tags. This is how we provide Christmas to seniors who otherwise wouldn't have Christmas. Hugh: Where can they find you online? Vicky: CVACL.org. Hugh: And where can they find Adult Care Center? Allison: AdultCareCenter.org. Linda: And Bedford Ride is BedfordRide-CVACL.org. Hugh: Those are places you can find these ladies. Do you want to talk about Meals on Wheels? People have heard of Meals on Wheels but may not know much about it. Tell people who you are and what you're representing here. Janet Lomax: I'm Janet Lomax. I am representing on Meals on Wheels of greater Lynchburg. Hugh: People may have heard about it, but they don't know what Meals on Wheels is about. Janet: Meals on Wheels delivers hot meals every day, Monday through Friday, to home-bound individuals who cannot prepare a nutritious meal for themselves or who do not have a person who can prepare nutritious meals for them. This Meals on Wheels delivers those meals for them, filling the gap for them. Hugh: We do have a pretty large need. We have a segment under the poverty line in Lynchburg, don't we? Janet: Yes, we do. Hugh: Where can people find you online? Janet: They can to go MealsLynchburg.org. Hugh: Thank you for standing up and telling your story. Let's see who I haven't interviewed yet. Tell people who you are and what's this organization you're representing. Teresa: Thank you so much. I'm Teresa Davis. I'm the communications director at Gleaning for the World. We are located in Concord, Virginia. We focus on disaster relief and humanitarian aid locally here in Central Virginia, and nationally and internationally as well. Hugh: Gleaning for the World. What is it about? What do you do? Teresa: Our mission statement is to share the love of God at home and around the world. That's what we're doing. We're sharing God's love by meeting tangible needs to people in need. Hugh: Like what? Give me an instance. Teresa: For example, right now, we have a truck on the way to California to help the people staying in shelters because of the Kincaid wildfire. This morning, they are back at the warehouse loading a truck headed to Jordan to bring clothes and basic materials to the refugees there. Hugh: Wow. Where can people find you online? Teresa: GFTW.org. Hugh: Thank you for sharing your story. What are you doing here? Connect Networking Group. Who are you, and what is this organization? Elizabeth Snyder: I'm Elizabeth Snyder. I am with the Connect Lynchburg Group. I like to say we are the Angie's List of Lynchburg because we have our businesses that we refer each other out and we do networking. The reason why we're here today is we also do a lot of work in the community. That's part of being a member of Connect. We do community work. Hugh: Love it. Where can people find you online? Elizabeth: We have a website. We're on Facebook. Our web URL is LynchburgConnect.com. Hugh: I think I've made the rounds. Thank you for coming by! Tell others the story of some of these great nonprofits and what they're doing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/Patty: Hey there Patty Dominguez, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast. We are in episode 15 with Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman. Two women that are moms at the time there were moms of teens and they were looking at sharing what was happening. Challenges of parenting teens and this passion project turned into something that has continued with yourteenmag.com. And I find them absolutely fascinating because of their insane amount of perseverance the way that they collaborate and they make it fun. Along the way. So these are two women that took the concept of a challenge and they turned it into a passion project. And it is truly an honor to collaborate with them as well. And so it is my great pleasure to introduce you today to Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman from yourteenmag.com.Patty: All right well thank you so much Susan and Stephanie for being on our show. You are the founders of your teenmag.com and it is a pleasure to have you on. So this is a three people podcast and Susan at the beginning was saying wait wait. Who's going to say what? And so we're just going to riff on this. People were just going to go with the flow and talk about how do you know when it's time to quit. And you're going to hear from two women who have been in business with yourteenmag.com for the past 12 years. How's that for tenacity. So thank you both for joining me today on Her Legacy Podcast.Susan: Thanks for having us.Patty: So I want to ask first and foremost typically I say hey let's get braggy. What's your superpower? But I'm speaking to an individual. But when you look at your Teen Mag what is your Teen Mag super power in your opinion?Susan: I would say it's just creating great content for Parents Day in and day out.Patty: Right. And you've been around for 12 years. What's been the feedback around. I mean certainly the longevity that you have to create something so sustainable. How do you know that what you have to offer is great and I'm being completely honest here how do you know that. Do you get a lot of rave reviews?Susan: Yeah we just actually got something today. And it was from a reader who said. Hi there. I don't think I've ever told you just how much enjoyed your teens through the years have made times that exhale.Because I found out I wasn't alone in this situation or simply got great advice. It's a wonderful publication. So we hear that all the time. And you know the best part about hearing it is that's what we set out to do.Patty: Yeah that's brilliant. And the fact is you provide community and support. And we know that when a business comes at it from a servant leadership part it just takes on a different position in people's mind. When you think about mindshare I always think about when somebody is building a brand like what's the mindshare that you capture.And I really see that with your teen mag. Just because I'm working on your project I see that there is just this level of comfort security for parents to feel that they're not alone. I think that's deeply deeply meaningful. Aside from of course that stellar content that you have so I really commend you for that because not a whole lot of people would have that level of attention to detail and care. So.Susan: Thank you. I think one of the things that we've tried to create is like a grownup playgroup for people and in our case it would be a virtual playgroup. But for many moms that was such a place to get information and to figure out. What was normal and what wasn't normal and you don't really have that anymore as your kids get older.So our goal was to create a space where you could come and you could say I have this problem and people could bolster you with their solutions or just compassion or just say me too. And. Then we have a number of spaces where that's really happening like our Facebook groups are great for that. Really supportive it's the village that we all look for.Patty: Exactly exactly that level of support. All right so take me back. Take us back all the way to the beginning. How did this start. How did yourteenmag.com start?Susan: Well since I was there first I'll start with that and then Steph can jump in. I have five kids. I went to law school. I stopped working after my third was born and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that decision and stay home with my kids. And when my kids when my oldest ones were getting near high school I really felt like I had to get out of their way. I had a lot of time on my hands but they did need. And I didn't want to go back to law.And so for years I had been saying to my husband. Why is there no parent's magazine for us as our kids get older? It's not a cumulative skill set. And I lost. And I just don't know if this behavior is normal or if I should be calling like an emergency room hospital to bring them all in. You know like you just don't know. And how do you find out. OK I don't know. But I also don't know where to go to find out without making turning everything into something extreme.And most of the things that we confront in adolescence fortunately aren't that extreme but we don't know it. So I just set out to feel the need of something I wanted and when I went and spoke to friends they wanted it to. I mean you know I had a gut that it was universal but you don't know you could be an opinion of one. And it wasn't the case every time I spoke to somebody they too were feeling alone and were looking for ways to kind of get validated or.You know as much as we don't want to hear that there's a crisis going on we'd rather know it than ignore it. So then from there we really just got a group of women Stephanie was one of them and then Stephanie and I soon after became partners. And that was the beginning of a love project really like a passion project.Patty: I think that's so brilliant. And the first part of that. Spoken like a true entrepreneur is that we really look for solutions to problems instead of just saying oh yeah that's a problem there. And so I'm assuming to sort of right around where 2006 or 2007.Susan: 2007 I think.Patty: Well the conversation started in 2007 and then the magazine was launched in 2007. OK. And then the other side of it is not only the fact that you identified that there was a need in the marketplace but you also validated it by checking in with other mothers checking in with your target audience if you will as you were developing the idea you were assessing. Yeah there is a need in the marketplace so you've looked at for the validation to say wow. Nobody's filling these needs. So now it's up to me to put something together and you rally.So I just want to give context to that because I think it's so important. I mean ideas are plentiful. People have ideas but it's the execution where most people fall short and they don't really understand how to take it through to break. And so for that reason I mean that was really great that you were able to assess not only there's an opportunity but here's what I to do about it am. So to that point. Talk to me about the beginning of me. Did you have experience with creating an online publication?Stephanie: We had no experience as you said she was a lawyer. I was a banker. We didn't know anything about publishing. Sue had this great idea we had met through a leadership course. I would say like every great relationship we were friends first before our work marriage and it was to this day we will say it with her credit that we really didn't understand the media business. We didn't even know it was called the media business to be honest. I think what we understood was that parents seemed desperate for the same information that we were desperate for. And. I guess we just kept going. Right.So we were getting some certainly some good feedback but also I think we were undeterred by this idea that OK we're you know we're helping people. It seems to resonate. Like let's just keep going. And so this idea of yeah having the skill set first and then then building the business. That's not how it happens. You know there's a saying in this leadership course you're on about building a bridge while you're walking on. Yeah that's pretty much our story. And I think. I was making notes as we're sitting here and I was just thinking about the even just the value of our partnership and being able to. Throw things back and forth at each other right and say likeOkay well when what about this or what about that or. OK well let's try this and I don't think we've ever been accused of. Waiting two longer. We're both. We will take action and we just continue to plow ahead and just watch media and while we do have the business the media experience were both smart women and I think we both have that. Mindset that we'll figure it out. We're both puzzlers. We love to win. We really love to win. And so that just propelled us forward was just you know just keep going. Keep going and keep solving keep going and keep solving.Patty: I love that. I love that. They know right before we got a call. I was like wait. Like let's go live. Because Susan said we're a 12 year start up and capturing that right. That yourteenmag.com is a 12 your start up. Tell me what that means. Tell us what that means to you.Susan: I want to say that just to respond to something Stephanie said we not only did Stephanie and I not know the industry but there wasn't one woman around the table. We were a group of women who did not know each other but someone knew someone who knew someone. And we sat around the table really working hard to get to the point of publishing our first print magazine. And no one around the table had any background so we were literally just passion.That's all we had passion and grit. But as it turned out that was a real advantage in an industry that was changing so rapidly which is why many people told us not to do it because why would you get into media when media is you know falling apart. But we had this distinct advantage of not knowing anything so the world was our oyster like when no one ever could say we've always done it this way because we didn't know we were doing so we know there was one issue.When we do this to this day but we get cover sponsor and someone who was also in the media industry said to us like where did you get that idea from. And we were like I don't know. We just you know we had some more real estate. And so we said well would you want to be on the cover. But that was hard for people who were born in the worlds of media because nobody did that for us. We didn't care we didn't know it was just a joke.Patty: I love that. I love it as an example. You made your own rules along the way and really not sticking to conventional wisdom of what. People think it should look like. And because of that there was an opportunity right there. So I think the curious action taking is something to be commended because. Most people would say well who can I model or.And it's OK to model. But I think just like you said the ambiguity and you being very comfortable in it really helped you all along the entire process. So that's pretty cool. That's a great idea. That was I'm sure completely out of left field for somebody to say well that's not how we do it.Susan: Right.Patty: And then you're probably like Oh really. And then by that time it was a really approving concept I'm assuming right.Susan: I mean it's worked great for us.Patty: That's awesome. I love that but not a great story like not following conventional wisdom So, Oh my god that's awesome. OK. So tell me now at the beginning like what were some of the myths as you put so many people are in a situation where they have a great idea with a very passionate which is what you're saying or they have like-minded friends colleagues that turn into partners and they were allowed into this journey of saying OK we got to make this happen.It takes tenacity and we take action. And so it's like I always say there's just peaks and valleys through this whole journey. What were some of the like kind of crash and burn moments where you questions. Should we continue? And how did you get out of it.Susan: I'll let Stephanie answer that but I'm just going to say that this shorter story is how many peaks were there not how many valleys.Patty: That's so sad I might need a tissue.Stephanie: Oh yeah.No no I'll give you the home where I really thought we were closing up shop like this. Sue knows the story I'm going to stop. So it just launched a new product. And we were things were going well with a distribution model we had partnered with an organization that was going to execute on this distribution model. Was going to be all over the country at different events. And so because the first event was close to where we are based in Cleveland Ohio is the you know let's go to the first one let's watch how it rolls out. You know we can always learn the server I guess or go to. So we went there and discovered that what we had agreed to with this company was not how it was taking place. So we watched you know this event unfold realized that they were not upholding their end of the bargain. And. We seize the day it's so us.I'm looking at Sue and I can see each other while were sitting there having this conversation though your listeners can't and I'm laughing because it was so us. I'm realizing maybe the theme of your team is rule breaking. So Sue and I we're taking this new publication we have and we kept like breaking all the rules.You know they were told you know we could do this but we did it. They said don't do that. Well we did it anyway because they were not upholding our ends of the bargain. We sold advertising sponsorship that this would be distributed in a certain way. So yeah it was more like a cartoon where like you know they close one door and then the little people running around on the train coming the other door and they try, were trying everything.So we get back to our hotel room that night and we realize we get a real problem here. We think rollout to you knows another 30 cities and this distribution is not working. So we're sharing a hotel room. And we're talking go to bed and wake up at about 5:00 in the morning I think we may see like a light. Sue was on her computer and her computer is on her lap. And we're trying to figure out like OK what else can we do and create our own distribution method. And I thought yeah this is the day. And meanwhile I'm appearing Sue I don't know if you remember this part. I'm appearing on a panel maybe 48 hours later all of entrepreneurs and you know these are like oh like why it's so great to be entrepreneur.And success and all these great things. Anyway we end up figuring out a new distribution within Sue, 24 hours not even. I mean we already had a new plan and we felt good about it. We felt like well we're so glad this happened. Now we own this distribution of this whole thing and yet we thought you know in those 12 hours or whatever it was it felt like a thousand and 12 hours that this was going to be how we went out of business like this was it It was going to be our biggest accomplishment was really looking like our biggest failure and failure is just. That is not in our playbook.Susan: I love it. I mean one of the things about a partnership that is a marriage and works there I mean we have a wonderful partnership is that there's this. I would say that it's you know we kind of think well neither one of us hits that point of like we should get out of this at the same time. But I don't actually think that's what happens. I think what happens is when one of us articulates starts to tiptoe into that space of panic the other one is the spouse who stands up and says everything's going to be fine.Like there's not going to be two of us panicking right now. So it's not just me and it's not just Stephanie but we each play that role to each other when one of us is feeling like I just don't think we're going to be able to pull this off.And then the other ones like oh no I had a fabulous day. And even if it's not true even if a week later we both admit that like we were just being good to each other and bolstering each other but it really really does work.Patty:] That's amazing. And what do you think is the reason for that is that personality types like ying and yang. Did you guys have core values discussion or. I mean you've been together for so long you just kind of find your ebb and flow but what initially was a reason that you were able to create something really like where you're symbiotic. It sounds like.Susan: They were just too committed to succeeding at this. I mean I often look at my own marriage and I remember someone asked Pink the singer why she's still married and she said we just don't leave. And I thought you know in my own personal marriage I often feel like it's a commitment to the marriage even more than a commitment to the person.And I think Stephanie and I are so competitive and so damn committed to making this. You know what it could be that you know we're in it we're just both in it.Patty: That's cheating. All right so I'm going to flip the script a little bit .Susan, how would you describe Stephanie as an entrepreneur. Like what are her strengths that she brings to the table that are such a key component to your Teen Mag.Susan: I think the most amazing thing is to have divided the company in a way that we didn't even know was the right way. It was kind of like well I'll do this and I'll do this. And all of a sudden like Stephanie turned into I mean I guess the word is a sales person but it's not that it's so much more. It's an ability to really understand how you partner with other people to make those relationships grow.And. You know 11 years ago ten years ago whenever it clicked in it was like astonishing to watch and I was just telling Stephanie about the first time we sat with somebody and she threw out a number that was bigger than any we'd ever thrown out. And I was like I'm not so comfortable with silence. But she had already gone into the meeting deciding that silence was the important tool like she throws it out and sit quietlyYep. And I was like praying that I do not violate her rule. Because I could have come out there and completely. Like beat against ourselves you know. And we got the contract and it was insane. And that was just the beginning of this journey of like really learning a place that, I mean I think in very ironic ways where each doing what we should be doing. But we didn't know it.Patty: And how about you. How about you Stephanie if you were to describe what Susan brings to the table those personality attributes.Stephanie: Two things come to mind. The first would be. She is a great problem solver. She can solve anything. So like there is no wall that is too tall. So like you know. She'll get to something and. somebody quit. Somebody says we can't do that.Somebody said it doesn't matter what it is she'll say OK and she'll have it solved within like. A minute literally like it's crazy. It's crazy how quickly she can go from like standing at that wall. To jumping over it around it through. Doesn't matter does not matter.Patty: That's tenacity.Stephanie: That you were saying get out. What is her? Yeah her super power. She can mount large walls and circumvent them. That's one of them. And then the other one and I already lost her. Oh she has a great ability. I mean it's really so problems solver right to come at it from another angle that I thought. Would say well wait a minute so? If we're trying to get. X. Maybe we should be asking this question. Oh. I don't even think of that and it's so funny.And this is not what you asked. It relates to maybe just how we relate to each other. Is there are so many times I just telling the story yesterday to somebody or so many times where you know I mean meeting when we talking about something and somebody I don't I will refer to. Something and I'll say yes Sue had this awesome idea and she'll start language like you knew that was your idea. It was so not my idea we were talking then and then we honestly cannot remember. He wasn't. Maybe it was yours.What were very good and I always say this like. Often people call me Sue call her Steph and we make jokes with the same person and that am what you ask. Our values are very much the same. We have good marriages right. We have good relationships and we bring it into this business too But, We are very good. I would say at if we don't agree on something. And this gets back to nothing the same person we are very good at talking it through. And one of us eventually. It's never the same one will say you know what ,you got this.You got this like this is your you know like you were excellent at like throwing something back and forth. Well I don't see it like that. You know what. You take it. You're right or I don't even know I don't even care. You know you handle.Patty: And so here is what I'm seeing and I think is really important is that in the partnership you complement each other really well. You can recognize each other's strengths and then at the same time it sounds to me like there's little to no ego whatsoever. About who had the idea or who gets this or who gets to that because you know that it's all for making your teenmag.com get better at putting out a different product. That's very rare. Very rare.Susan: I want to say that we learned early on from somebody who turned out to be a wonderful mentor to us. That collaboration was a really it was the most valuable thing we could do in our business. And it came at a time that was so important for me personally because I was seeing everybody else in the space that we were in as a threat. And her response was at one time said look at this like to show her the competition and she said oh my god that's so exciting.Give them a call. And I was like. What? She's like yes maybe you can work together. So that really changed. I think for both Stephanie and I how we run the business and so when we can't figure out whose idea was that is the consummate compliment about collaboration that we've had people work for us and it didn't work out for them well at all because. That was a process that they couldn't wrap your head around that at the end we weren't going to know who got credit.That it was going to be like this brainstorming every second of every meeting where something bubbled to the top but it was a word from every single person. And at the end it was just the right thing. I love that there are people who can't just. I mean it's not better or worse it's just not the environment they work well in.Stephanie: Sue do you remember whose idea the cover sponsor was.Susan: No clue.Stephanie: Exactly.Susan: Do you?Stephanie: No I have no idea. That's my point. No idea, it could have been your idea Patty. I have no idea.Patty: Well I was going to say this I remember one of the best bosses I ever worked with corporate was so great because he was all about collaboration. And I remember we had a presentation in front of our biggest client at the time is when I was in management consulting and that something had happened at home my son had to be hospitalize he was like 3 years old. And I called them up and I was Paul, I can't make it. Like literally I have to be here.It's you know my son is in the hospital like anybody else would be like well what are we going to do in this and that. And then it was like without hesitation he's like, No problem. So and so we'll pick up the ball and one of the things that I so appreciate it at the beginning of why I got that job was because we've worked together, we play together we win together. And if you don't understand that I will cut you off like cancer.Like he was so militant about that one whirl. And because of that we operated like a well-oiled machine it was probably the best situation I've ever been in in the tenure that I had in corporate life you know 18 years because the majority of people are all about well who gets the credit. I want to look good. It's very self-serving. Whereas he was like he understood.Those by all of us contributing were so much stronger. Right. And we're all going to get the accolades that we want by collaborating in that way. And that's such a distinct Sense of leadership and emotional intelligence that literally 99 percent of people just don't have. So that is a huge competitive advantage to you guys that I could see just from the outside looking at. So I think that's phenomenal.Susan: OK I want another chance to give Stephanie superpowers.Patty: Yeah go ahead.Susan: So the two that make. Life fun. Is that Stephanie laughs like a lot? She laughs. I mean I wish I could see what my sister in law gave my husband. But it was something about how no one thinks I'm funnier than me. So my husband in my work status.Believe that, like they both they like look at her. I mean you can see her but her whole body is involved in a lot of right thing.Susan: Right. So they both find themselves very funny which of course actually does create just an atmosphere of Laughter. It does.Patty: Yeah.Susan: And so that's so much fun and cuts through any problem you ever had and then the other thing that I marvel at because I think I'm 8 years older than you right?Stephanie: I know I'm going to be 50 in March.Susan: I'm going to be 58 in April so that's a good idea.Stephanie: There you go. Were also good at math.Susan: Yes you're very good at that. The thing is I cannot remember anybody's name anymore at all. And Stephanie knows if your daughter was dating. Am and who the person was and where they went to college and they were thinking about transferring so she made a connection and she checks up on that. So if you're going to be in sales you want to. STEPHANIE.Stephanie: Yeah I was at one. No you don't. Because she belongs to you. So but yeah that is a phenomenal spokes at. For a 50 sample yesterday morning Sue and I are sitting in a coffee shop already at 2 waiting for a meeting I look over the coffee shop and I think I'd recognize someone that we met with one time it's been awhile it been a year So I'm out mother just see her, Sue look across over there. I think that's the person and I start You know, and Sue put her glasses on and she's looking in out first no one can see my face but she's got this look like I've never seen that person before in my life right.That look and I go Oh see you' recognize her huh. And we started. I'm like crying. Like everything is fair game. I agree with Sue says I'm going to be. If you can find any shred of something to laugh at. Count me in.Patty: That's awesome. That's awesome. All right so we're turning the corner. What do you each individually excited about. Of where yourteenmag.com is going.Susan: All right. Well last I think two weeks ago, Stephanie hadn't been out of town I would have called her and said we need to meet and talk about whether there's any way to pull this off. And two weeks later I think we are going to kill it in the biggest way.And I can't even believe. How things have come together. Working with you. This is extraordinary. Working with the people you're giving us which is extraordinary having. Like a man who has no reason to want to love us say he will work for us for pennies because he wants to see us succeed. I mean it's all. There's just all these things happening right now and they're working they're working. I think. You know it's like the sky's the limit right now. It's really exciting and we're never going to say it was an overnight success.Stephanie: I know.Susan: It is. Hard hard work more sleepless nights than nights with sleep. And we could never pull ourselves away from this because it's been a passion project.Patty: Well I love it.Stephanie: And the one thing I'll add to that is and they just said this to someone the other day. That I look around the table and look around like if the players can have their hands in Your Teen right now. And it's the right team. You know I look at every piece and my husband has a saying that when you see someone who's.Doing the job they were meant to do it. And he always says they're sitting in the right seat. I look around our table and I say Oh my God we've got every. It's all the right seeds. And like I've never felt like that in the business as much as I get. Excited is I feel different times whenever I can honestly look around now and say wow like how do we get so lucky.Patty: That's awesome. That is great. And it just shows because you were committed. You're committed until it wasn't until it's convenient or until you're tired or any of that it's like until ,until it gets to the levels of success that you that you deserve and you're looking for so I love it.I mean it's such an honor to be a part of you guys his journey on your teen and where you want to take it because there is so much more coming you're going to see the incredible feedback and how you can serve your customers or clients at such a different level in 2019. So for the people listening for more information check out your teenmag.comPatty: And you're on Facebook on Instagram or you on Pinterest as well.Susan: Twitter. Interest.Patty: Am I missing anything.Susan: [00:31:10] Twitter.Patty: Twitter. I always forget Twitter Twitter and now that again yourteenmag.com I so appreciate your heart because both of you have such tenacity and you guys in my book are bad asses so just so you know. It's official. You are bad asses.Susan: That's a compliment.Patty: A deep compliment because most people it just won't do what it takes to keep going so. So this was all about how do you know when it's time to quit. Well the answer is you don't. You don't when it's a passion project and you have the right team and the synergy is there and the collaboration is there and there's no ego in the whole thing.And I also really commend you for having a beautiful partnership that you've able to curates develops into something meaningful and it almost kind of crosses over doesn't it. Between the professional and personal like were you deeply are like gosh you guys are like family right. Like that level where you look at your team and say you all are like family. We deeply care about each other. That's when you know you hit the mark in terms of the lines are blurred in such a good way. That there's no difference between working or b right.It's a love that dynamic team is just jelling and it takes on a life of its own. So I see it very clearly with that you guys are developing. So thank you so much. Oh one last question I can't believe my famous question. The question is that each of you answers please. When all was said and done what do you want your legacy to be?Susan: Well I mean I love your teen. It's been a journey and a gift. And some of the things about your teen I love but my family I mean I already feel like you know there are moments in life I remember right after I got married being on a plane with a tremendous amount of turbulence and I thought well if I die right nowI have this great love affair like you know that I got to experience that. So I feel that way in my own life like to have this husband and these kids and these friendships and the partnership with Stephanie and all of these other people we've gotten to meet along the journey. It's hard to think of something better.Patty: Wow I love that How about for you Stephanie?Stephanie: No you can't take the words out of my mouth but I will add to that. It's funny you are saying about being a bad ass. The one thing I always say is I want to be known as a kind bad ass.Patty: Okay. Yeah definitely. There's a difference right about. The fact that you are a success but how you got to be a success. Right. If you like burn bridges in the process that was the big bad ass.Stephanie: Yeah yeah. Now that kindness goes a long way. I hope people think about me I was about that with my kids too that they were kind. Come to teach you Steph.Patty: Gracias she's throwing up the P sign. All right. All right ladies thank you so much for being on her legacy. Get yourteenmag.com and I so appreciate you and I think it be a good idea to come back on the podcast.Right because we're so many good things are happening for you all and see what happened right. The 12 year starts of what's the story of glory. We could talk about that about would be really cool. Sounds good.Susan: I think you got in steady.Patty: You so much for joining us on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast...Links mention in this episode:Website: yourteenmag.com,Media Handles: https://www.facebook.com/YourTeenhttps://www.instagram.com/yourteenmag/https://www.pinterest.com/yourteenmag

Susan Grace is a writer, intuitive, and empathic astrologer dedicated to the Collective’s call to usher in the End of Suffering. She has read thousands of charts for people of all walks of life from all over the world. She says she does this work to ensure no one feels alone in the massive shift happening in the world. And she has some important messages we need to hear right now. GUEST LINKS - SUSAN GRACE betheevidencepodcast.com podcast betheevidence.live platform | community susangrace.org HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Slade: You write on your site, I climbed my way out of a deep dark well I had fallen into by feeling my way through astrology and listening to the whispering guidance from souls beyond the veil. Tell me the story behind that. Susan: Well I looked up and found that everything was falling apart. And I fought it for a long time. I tried to hold everything up with duct tape. I could feel that energies bigger than me were saying, You don't understand. You're done here. So I finally gave in and I just felt like something bigger than me was guiding, and I thought, Alright! Whatever you feel like you need to take down, because it's in my best interest, go ahead. But if we're going to do this, we're gonna do it all right now. Because I'm not doing this for ten years. And I swear, it was like the planets went, You heard the lady. And just... WHAM! It took everything down! All the rest of it! And I had to trust it. I had to trust that it was in my favour, that it knew what it was doing, and I had to ride it out. I ended up on the other side, exactly where I needed to be, course-corrected. And that made me start to dig into astrology and say, I need to understand what's happening here. Because I can't figure this all out by myself. I've got my limited perception as a human, can't figure all this out by myself. I need help. And so I just started digging and digging and digging and digging into the astrology to learn what was happening. And that's how I got started. Slade: How far back does your interest in astrology go? Was this something that you dabbled in when you were younger? Do you have a lifelong history with astrology? Susan: Well, I have a lifelong history with horoscopes, just sun signs, right? When I was coming up, there was no internet. We had things like newspapers and magazines. And I would follow horoscopes for the same reason. I needed help. I'd take all the help I can get. But then, once the internet came out, and once I saw my chart, I saw my chart in 2012, and that changed me forever. Then I was like, Oh, this is what I need! This is the key I've been looking for. Slade: Wow... So how did you get from that epiphany to actually doing readings for other people professionally? Susan: Social media. When I first started really reading, I felt like these astrologers I was listening to were talking a lot about all the mechanics within a chart, but they weren't putting it all together. I kept ending up saying to myself, I hear what you're saying, but what do you mean? What are you talking about? What does this ultimately mean? And I got to the point where I could sit in a chart for the day, and I'd figure out everything that was happening, and I would be like, Alright, this looks like anxiety. And then I would go and take art images and match that with the astrology, within social media. Nobody knew what the hell I was doing. All I was doing was feeling it out, mostly for myself, but then it caught on. And people started to share it a lot. And then, eventually it got to the point where people are going, Can you look at my chart? I was like, I'm not an astrologer. And then they kept saying it. I had a friend of mine who said, Susan, I'm going to PayPal you, and you are going to open my chart and read it. And I said, Okay! And then that's when it started. I had a friend of mine who had me on one of her shows. The two other panelists, off mic, were saying, Are you an astrologer? And I said no. And they're like, I believe you are! They had an intervention with me. And then it really got to where people wanted to hear what I had to say, not just my interpretation through art. The art fell away and now it's just me and my voice. Slade: Mmm... What do you think makes your astrological readings different from other astrologers? Susan: In my personal chart, I have a lot of water, water signs, which, in astrology, that means that I feel everything all the time. When I'm in a chart with someone, I walk them all the way through it. I've had readings with other astrologers and they give you basic, broad interpretations of your chart. When I read a chart for someone, I read EVERYTHING in their chart to them. Every placement. Every aspect. Every transit. Where the planets are now. And the phases of life they're going to go through. I tell them everything. They should know as much as I do about their own chart. And then I'm able to feel it too. I'm able to say, This looks like, for instance, something really rough happened when you were a kid and you've been trying to make up for it since then. And they're like, YES. And I'm like, Alright, well let's talk about it. And I get them all the way through feeling out who they are too. Not just book knowledge. Slade: So you use your intuition quite a bit then. Susan: Oh, yeah! And I did not even plan on this. When I first started reading... I'm gonna go ahead and tell you the truth about this... Slade: Mmhmm! Susan: When I first started reading, the very first professional one I did, someone's deceased father came through from the other side and I had never experienced that before. I decided on the fly to be brave and be like, Listen, this is going to sound crazy, but this is the energy I feel right behind me. As if this person is here. I described that they were in blue jeans wearing a t-shirt and they had a hammer in their hands. And they were like, tapping the hammer into their other hand, as if they're frustrated. And she said, Ohmygod. That's my dad. He used to build fences. And I said, Well I don't think he likes your boyfriend. And she said, I don't think he does either! So yeah, weird things like that have opened up, since I've become a professional reader. So it's a lot of intuition, it's a lot of messages from guides, it's a lot of outside energy saying things like, Tell them again! Tell them again! Tell them again! Tell them again! Sometimes I have to say, Alright! Back up! I just said it. I will say it again. But back up a little bit. It's that kind of stuff. Slade: Mmm... I have to tell you that, looking at someone's chart is my portal into reading for them and that was how I started doing intuitive readings was, if I know someone's sun, moon and rising sign, I can do an intuitive reading based on those three pieces of information. But for some reason, it's like... I've heard of other psychics who use even playing card decks or they have a coin that they twirl in their hand or they have these weird ticks that they have that are kind of their little gateway ritual, or whatever. And mine has fallen away to be just intuitive. But for a long time, that was how I would tune in to someone. I would just go and I would cast their chart and I would look into their chart. And I used to say, I wasn't even really reading their chart. It was more like the graphic became sort of the window. It was like a symbolic window. But if I looked through that window, it became representative of connection to that person. So that's very interesting that you have this combined, intertwined experience with that as well. It makes total sense to me. Because, same kind of thing. I was sort of drafted. Hey, can you read for me? Can you connect with my guides? ... I can try! That's sort of how it happens. I always think about what happened to you, with your friends being an example of one of those... The Purpose that the Universe picks for you, as opposed to maybe the one that you would've picked for yourself. You know what I mean? It's like, Nope. Here's your Purpose! You're drafted. Susan: Yeah. In my chart, I have placements around the galactic centre and when that happens, often the Purpose of your life, they come and get you. I could go hide under the bed. They were still gonna come get me somehow. You know, if you go back to my 10 year old self, my 20 year old self, and said, What do you want to be when you grow up? I never would've said an astrologer online. Because there was no astrologers and there was no online! It didn't exist! So that feeling of something coming to find you, I don't know, I'm noticing it happening more and more to people, no matter what placements they have in their chart. Because we're all kind of being called up right now. We're all needed in the world. Slade: Mmm... 2012. That was such a milestone year, expectantly. Like something was supposed to happen in 2012 and it did for you. For sure. Susan: So it happened for the world too. We just haven't seen it all play out just yet. You'll see. 2020 is the next marker and you're going to see it play out even more. Something DID happen in 2012. Slade: Mmm... Can you tell us? Susan: Sure! Slade: Well you're here! Go for it. Susan: If you've been following things like this, December 21, 2012 was the end of the Mayan calendar. People were saying it was the end of the world, and that's not true. It was the end of the world as we knew it. And what happened in 2012 was our solar system, which orbits around our sister star Sirius, was coming out of the darkest part of its orbit from Sirius. When we're closest to Sirius, we're the most conscious. When we're the furthest from Sirius, we're the least. It takes 2000 years for our solar system to go through the darkest part of its orbit from Sirius. We came out of that in 2012. Also in 2012, the same year, there's a planet called Regulus, very big planet that marks the leadership of the world. It takes 2000 years for Regulus to go through a sign. The exact same 2000 years, Regulus was in Leo. When we were in darkness, or unconsciousness, we were king and kingdom led. 2012 the same year that we're coming back into consciousness, Regulus clicked in to Virgo. Now the leadership of the world for the next 2000 years is the healing goddess energy. And the healing goddess energy is coming for everyone. Everyone is going to be healed one way or another. Slade: Mmm... So what happens in 2020? Susan: In 2020, Pluto is in Capricorn. Last time just Pluto was in Capricorn was when U.S. signed the Declaration of Independence. Saturn will cross Pluto in 2020. The last time Saturn and Pluto together were in Capricorn was the Renaissance. When Saturn crosses Pluto in 2020, Jupiter will be here too. The last time those three were in Capricorn was the year 1284, in the middle of our darkness. So the control of the world is going to flip. That control mechanism, fear mechanism, suppression, oppression, all of those are going to collapse and we are going to replace it with what we truly find valuable. It's Uranus going through Taurus. So it's going to be going back and healing the planet. It's going to be healing our own traumas from being suppressed and pushed down. It's going to be building new systems for education and for finding water for people, for healthcare systems, everything. Everything is going to be rebuilt. Slade: This is good news. Susan: Yeah! Slade: Hallelujah. Ohmygosh. That's really good to hear, Susan, because it's been a rough couple of years. Susan: it's been rough for all of us and people are exhausted. Exhausted! And if you don't understand... This is one of the reasons I will never ever put astrology down. If you don't understand where we are, what's been happening and where we're going, you could give up! And this is NOT the time to give up. I keep saying over and over and over. And I'm gonna keep saying it. We are going UP not down. So if you're starting to witness collapse, what you need to pay attention to and what you need to participate in is what's replacing it. Because the collapse is going to happen with our without your participation. And you want it to happen. But what comes next? Go there. Slade: I love it. So, I have to ask you, just really quickly before we move on from your readings, do you record your sessions? Is that an option for people? Susan: Yes, I record sessions and then I send it. I do it face to face on Zoom so that I can share my screen with them and I can show them everything I'm talking about in their chart. And I record it and I send it to them through Dropbox. Slade: Okay, excellent. Because I was just thinking, I have the wonderful benefit of having recorded you saying all of that. And I also have a transcriptionist. So I have access to that information and I wanted to make sure, because something shifts when you start reading like that. Like you kind of become a channel, a little bit. Susan: Oh yeah. And I can tell whenever I'm channeling. My voice gets more forceful and I start talking faster. I become very emphatic. It's almost like my feminine water steps aside and the masculine comes forward and starts being like, Pay attention. I'm telling you something important. Slade: Right. Susan: And then it kind of fades off. And then the water in me comes back more. Slade: I love it though. It's so cool because I've been listening to a lot of your podcast with Aubrey. Most people will have listened to my interview with Aubrey Cara. She's your co-host on the show Be the Evidence. Aubrey and I ended up talking about you so much in that interview that I literally Facebook-messaged you the minute we were finished recording. I was like, Your ears have to be burning. You need to come do an interview with me immediately, otherwise people are gonna be like, Where's the other chick, you know? So you've been on my list of potential guests from the beginning of my show for over a year. A lot of my listeners actually recommended you to me, but at that time, this newer podcast actually wasn't even out yet. So I feel like the timing has worked out. It's a very cool show concept. I have been listening to it as preparation for speaking with both of you guys. I love it because it is very much about what's going on in the moment. I'm going to turn it over to you and let you tell me about this show, Be the Evidence, from your perspective. Tell me about the name and the concept and what it's all about. Susan: Sure. It was, I guess two years ago. I was working with someone when I was still in my executive position at a corporate job and the president of the company had cancer. And I was in Houston with him helping him go through treatment. I was in the hotel room and I really felt like I was around that air of, I don't know if you've ever cared for someone who has something like that. There's like a heaviness around it. There's a heavy energy around it. I found myself going, How do I know that I'm right, that we come out of things like this? How do I know I'm right when I say, We heal out of suffering. We are healing out of suffering. We're going up not down. How do I know I'm right about that? Instantly, it came: You have to be the evidence of it. So I wrote down, Be the Evidence. And that became a tag on my website, and then (sorry there's a siren outside my window). Slade: Of course there is. There was a large truck moving some limbs around earlier on my end. It's part of the humanizing charm of our show. Susan: So when Aubrey and I started talking about doing a podcast, and she said, What do you think about the concept? Well it comes from my website, and I don't know how you feel about that but I'm kind of stuck on this Be the Evidence thing. And she's like, I don't care if it came from your website. I like it. Let's do it! That's where we come from, is that you have to be the evidence in the world. It's not going to do for us to all sit back and pontificate about where we think we should be going, with humanity. We've got to get out there and do it, in all of our questioning, in all of our confusion, in all of our vulnerability, in all of our going, I don't know what's going on, do you? Nope! And we have to keep doing it. You have to keep showing up. Show up! And be the evidence of what we can become, because nobody else is coming to do it. Slade: Mmm... The thing I love about your show is, it feels like a conversation that I have with some of my closest girlfriends, who will text me and be like, What the hell is going on?? Is something in retrograde or you know? And I mean, I'm not even an astrologer, but I usually am well versed enough in some of what's going on, or I will have picked it up, or heard it from this person or that person. So I will engage them with whatever little piece of new age perspective I have on it. A lot of those conversations actually end up being my content for my show, my blog post. One of my PR people. She and I became really close friends and for awhile, she would text me once a week and ask me some kind of heady question. I was like, That's a really cool question. Keep asking me those! Because they were generating stuff. So it reminds me, when I listen to you and Aubrey, it reminds me of those conversations. It feels like we're eavesdropping on Aubrey calling you up and saying, What's going on in the sky? And then your... whatever it is that happens, you start channeling, right? You're a channel. It'll go through this conversational phase, and then you have these moments where it's like, Susan is up on the soapbox telling it to us. I love it because it's really in the moment. You did a show on the full moon in Aries, which was a day or two ago. And I can listen to that in that moment when I'm feeling that energy. So you guys do 3 shows a week. It is very much in the moment. I'd like to hear a little bit about the process. How does that all work? Susan: The process is what it sounds like. Aubrey and I will, just for a few minutes, before we start recording, off mic, that's exactly what happens. I go, How are you feeling? She's like, Not so good! And then I'm like, Okay, let me show you what's happening in our charts. And she's like, That explains it. And I'm like, So these points I think are the strongest points of what's going on. And she goes, I agree. Let's go. And then we just hit record. We don't talk about how far we're going to go. We don't set up any kind of outline. We just start talking. So we have noticed, I think we're on number 24 now. We've noticed that we've started developing a pattern without even talking about it. We get on when we're both very human, very vulnerable, going, Man, I feel lost too. Wow. And then we get on a roll. And then there's a chan... Like you say, like you describe it, sounds like there's a channeling step going on. Something bigger comes through. By the time we finish, we both go, Right, that was complete. That's it. We laugh sometimes because it really is like you guys are listening in on us processing what the hell is happening. That's exactly what we do. Slade: I love that. I mean, it's such a cool concept. I try to keep everything really evergreen with what I do. But I do introductions that are very much in the moment. And I talk about my personal life and those often take on a life of their own. Sometimes I'm like, Wow, that was better than the planned segment. So I love the philosophy behind your show. I love the way that you approach it. It's very much the same kind of idea that we have here for this conversation. This is you and I meeting for the first time, talking about things that we have in common and the conversation has a life of its own. But you guys are impressively cranking out these episodes. Like, you make a lot of them. Susan: That was by choice. We started out, I think the first one was a week apart. We did it just weekly. And then we're like, that's too long. So we went to two a week. So we podcast on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We felt like Friday to Monday was too long. And so now we're up to three. And we've talked about going daily, and we might! Because we really feel like the energy is saying, No you don't understand. All hands on deck right now. And we are meeting that call. We're ready. We're ready to show up for the collective and anything that's going to happen, we are totally going to walk straight through this with people. We want to make ourselves available as much as we possibly can. Slade: I love it. I think it's a really cool show concept. I've been enjoying it. I don't know how other people will work it into their daily... Maybe they'll listen to it on their commute, or when they're on the train or the bus, or driving. I listen to it when I'm shaving. Like when I take my shower and I'm shaving. Because they're 20 minutes. It's a good amount of time to kind of check in every day, or maybe on those days where you really do feel like, Something's going on this week! I'm gonna see if what I'm feeling is right. And one of the things I've noticed about you even off mic, before we really started recording is, you have a very eloquent way of succinctly kind of stating things that it would take me a whole paragraph to say. And then you'll say something that's a phrase. I call those Shining Sentences. That is a channeled thing. Like the name for your show and how that came through. That was a shining sentence. You speak in shining sentences! You have a very poetic quality to your content, especially when it's written - your Facebook posts, your website. I notice that you even style them.. They're blocked on the page more the way that poetry is. Which, anyway, I just think is cool. I'm just analyzing you for the fun of it. Sometimes we're not aware of what we're doing artistically. Other times it's super intentional. Am I right in assuming that all those things are kind of part of what you're trying to create and I'm just picking it up? Susan: First of all, it's intentional but it's not my intent. When people finally started saying, We need to hear your words, it just started coming out in verse. I don't know why. And it still comes out in verse. Sometimes I go back to my own posts, going, What the hell is happening? And then I read my own and I go, Oh, okay. Yeah, right. Got it. But also, I've had more than one person tell me, when they finally talk to me, beyond just reading my words, they're like, Oh, you talk like you write! And I don't realize I'm doing it. Slade: That's very cool. It's a unique style and I like it. It's one of the things that draws me in. The use of the astrological vocabulary, I'm a little bit fluent in that so... But even sometimes when you talk about things that are really nuanced, I get the energy of what you're saying because of the way that you say it. There's a layer. It's definitely got a poetic quality to it. I can't find a better way to describe it. When we were writing back and forth, corresponding about the show, you wrote to me saying that you believe we are web-building right now. What did you mean by that? Susan: Well it's a very old paradigm, very patriarchal, to feel like there's one person going to do all the heavy lifting and then we're all going to follow that one person. No. That's not what we're doing anymore. Now we all rise together. We share resources, we share ideas, we support each other. We cross-promote. We are here to build a tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter web. A web of us all coming up together. Because there a power in our numbers. And because we all house our own special kind of tapped-in to the energy, all kinds of resources, our own specialties, our own bodies of knowledge. We all have something different and it's all needed. And so we build these things together. If you're out there competing right now, you've already lost. You have to find what you're really good at and then hook up with everybody else and what they're really good at. And conversely, if you're going out and you think you're gonna do what everybody else is doing, wrong answer. If it's already been done, it's already dead. So find what you do really well, your own specific way, and then we build webs. We don't fight each other. We join together. Slade: One of my marketing mentors, he has a very progressed view of what it means to put yourself out there, as a business person. He always says, You find a group of people and then you become relentlessly helpful. Susan: Yes! Slade: That, to him, is the definition of marketing. Find a group of people that speak your language, that are like-minded, and then go be relentlessly helpful. I love that. I don't know that I'm always pulling it off, but it's definitely in my mind to lean towards that, right? I feel my own practice expanding when I chose to do the podcast. It became a platform for other people to talk, not just me. And that was a huge shift! I was surprised, as someone who likes to control everything, you know, a perfectionist, south node in Virgo I think is the way you would say that... Susan: Yeah! Slade: Moving into that more Piscean kind of north node mindset or whatever, for me, has been about recognizing how good it feels to collaborate with people. Susan: Yeah. Listen Slade, south node in Virgo, right? Slade: Mmhmm. Susan: South node in Virgo people, it's not just that you're perfectionists. It's also that you've got this thing where you feel like everything is up to you. Nobody else is gonna do it so I gotta do it. And people with south node in Virgo, it's like you've got bleeding calluses on your hands, because you're the one doing all the work. Everybody else has already gone home and you're still doing it. And north node in Pisces is trying to say, Listen, there's a greater force of life at play here too. And you can allow that to contribute. It doesn't have to all be on you. Slade: Yes. Yes! Hence these wonderful interviews that I do. Do you realize how much easier it is for me to record an interview with you than it is to prepare an episode where it's just me? Just the actual workload of what is involved is so completely different. The energy is so different collaborating with people. And it feels so cool to be, to feel, I said to someone, I said, I feel like I'm kind of hosting a party for a bunch of people. I'm not teaching anyone anything. I'm inviting a lot of really interesting people to come together and hang out and interact. That's where it feels like it's growing, and I love that because it's actually easier, Susan. It's actually easier to let other people do some of the work, especially the parts that they're better at. Susan: And don't you know that's teaching people a lot? We're teaching people a lot in doing that. We're showing that you're a way-shower. Slade: Mmm... I've heard that before. Susan: The thing about a way-shower is that you go out in front and you figure things out. And then people are going, I don't know what to do. You go, Hang on, five more minutes. I've almost got it figured out. And you figure it out! And then you go, Okay, now I got it. And you show people the way. And what I've been trying to say to way-showers is, really think about that in the opposite direction too. Think about the miracle of you, figuring out a way, and showing people you haven't even met yet, people out there who feel lost, have someone up ahead thinking about them, and they don't even know their name. That's a miracle. Slade: Mmm... Thank you for that. That was really lovely. What do you hope to contribute to this greater collective, you know, when we think about personal development, and maybe that term isn't even a really good one anymore, from what you and I have been discussing and describing. But what do you hope to kind of contribute to the conversation about astrology, about spirituality, about human evolution. Susan: Oh, for sure, I know this sounds kind of grandiose but I really believe it, in my bones, that this wave of humanity, if you're alive on the planet today, you are part of a wave that is going to bring humanity out of suffering. We are the bridge between suffering and liberation. Sometimes that can feel like you're being pulled apart, like you don't know which side is going to win. But I'm telling you, that we are going to pull humanity all the way out of suffering and we are going to heal ourselves. Now is the time. That's the task that this generation, this wave of humanity, has. So whenever you feel overwhelmed with suffering, when you feel overwhelmed with pain, you feel overwhelmed in darkness, it's important to remember that this is the last of it. We're meant to get in and heal it all the way out. Don't stop. You have to keep going. Because that's what we're being called for to do. Slade: Susan, thank you for taking the time to come and speak with me today. Susan: My pleasure. Slade: So tell everybody where they can go to find you online, if they want to get a reading with you or if they want to find your podcast. Susan: I am at SusanGrace.org so you can read more about me there. Or under the Services page, where my readings are listed. And I also have a set of, what I call 'The Papers'. These are just short little write-ups I've done for trends that I see in people's charts. Those are available there too. Be the Evidence is under Be the Evidence, whatever podcast you're streaming, including iTunes. And then on SimpleCast we're under Be the Evidence as well. And on Facebook, I'm under Susan Grace, and on Instagram as well, Susan Grace. Slade: Wonderful. We'll put all those inks in the Show Notes to make it really easy. That was great, Susan. Thank you for coming on. Susan: Thank you for having me.

Susan C Shea won a writing contest - and the prize – a year's  membership to Mystery Writers of America convinced her that writers were such lively off beat people she'd like to be one too. Fast forward to today and Susan publishes two different mystery series – one set in the glitzy San Francisco art world, and the other in an out-of-the-way French village. Hi there, I'm your host Jenny Wheeler and today Susan explains why creating mysteries is like composing songs, how “writing what you know” works for her, and shares the authors she loves to binge read. But before we talk to Susan, just a reminder that the show notes for this Binge Reading episode can be found on the website, The Joys of Binge Reading.com That's where you'll find a full transcript of our discussion, plus links to Susan's books and website, as well as details about how to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss future episodes. Six things you'll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: Why writing mysteries is like composing songs How 'writing what you know' worked for her Her passion for all things French Why parity for women mystery authors is important The writers she admires most What she'd do differently second time around Where to find Susan C Shea:  Website: http://susancshea.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/susancshea  Twitter: @susan_shea  What follows is a "near as" transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here's Susan. .  Hello there Susan and welcome to the show, it's great to have you with us. Beginning at the beginning  -  was  there a “Once Upon A time moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction?  And if there was a catalyst for this, what was it? Susan: Yes there was a catalyst, actually. I won a writing contest a long time ago and the prize was a year's membership in the Mystery Writers of America. I was living in San Francisco, and I started going to the San Francisco meetings and I met all these wonderful people! Lively, curious, bright and a little off beat, who were published mystery writers. And I would go every month to the dinner, and became friends with some of those people who are still my friends. I thought, I'd like to do this too! Susan C Shea - mystery author Jenny: Fantastic! So you just sat down and started writing? Susan: Well, sure I did. But I was also raising kids and working full time. That's easier said then done, to sit down and start writing. I had a lot of false starts, but I kept being encouraged by the members of Mystery Writers and the local chapter who said "persevere, don't give up, keep writing, keep reading". It sorted of gestated in me for a long time before I actually decided to take the plunge - to quit my day job and start writing full time. Jenny: Great. And so you were naturally drawn to the mystery genre it sounds like, right from the beginning? Susan: Yes, I really was. I think one of the things I like about mysteries is that there's a structure and there's an expectation. It's sort of like listening to a piece of music where you know where the bridges are, you know where the verses, you know where the choruses are. There's a kind of pleasure in the rhythm of that. That appealed to me both as a reader and a writer. Jenny: That's a great analogy. I'd never thought of it that way before. It is a very good way to look at it. You've currently got two different mystery series on the go – one set in a picturesque French village, and the other in a prestigious San Francisco art and antiquities museum . .  How did you get going on these? Susan: Well the Dani O'Rourke series set in a museum in San Francisco was the first one I did, and I had for a long time been debating how to structure a story and who the protagonist was going to be. Dani O'Rourke mystery - Book Three I had been a fundraiser,

Susan Hyatt is a master certified life coach, weight loss expert, and the author of BARE. She’s the creator of the trademarked BARE Process, the BARE Deck, a podcast called BARE, and an online community called BARE DAILY. We talk about: Helping women stop dieting How you know the inner voices are not your higher self How to silence the voice of the Inner Mean Girl Flipping the dialogue away from self-violent thoughts "There's no upside to violent self-thoughts. They don't help in any way," Susan says. "The more you allow yourself to be seen and take up space, the more you can conquer those voices that say you shouldn't." MENTIONED ON THE SHOW If I'm So Smart, Why Can't I Lose Weight? by Brooke Castillo GUEST LINKS - SUSAN HYATT shyatt.com BARE daily BARE Podcast BARE by Susan Hyatt (the book) HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Susan: I help people get what they want. Slade: What does that mean? Susan: That means, so when you say to people, I'm a life coach, still most of the population has no idea what that means. Theres an elderly woman on a plane that thought that meant I was a hospice worker. And so I look at it more as a conversation starter. So I'm not, if I just say, I'm a life coach, people's eyes kind of glaze over and then they are like, Oh, okay. If I say, I help opoeple get what they want, then they're like, WHAAAT? Say more! And then it's a conversation I'm having about, I'm a life coach and an author and I specialize in helping women stop dieting. Sometimes I just say, I help women stop dieting and you can see, I've written a couple funny stories because especially women are like, What?? You help them stop?? What would you do that? Because we're so immersed in diet culture. People think that dieting is being healthy and it's actually the opposite of that. Slade: Hnm.. How did that land in your lap, by the way? How did that become your thing? Susan: Well, it became my thing because I was 35 - 40 pounds over my natural weight when my first year as a life coach. And I knew that there were underlying issues about that. And I felt like, Hahaha it was my final frontier to conquer. It wasn't, but it certainly was one issue that I needed to deal with. And I hired a weight loss coach named Brook Castillo who's amazing, and she has this great book, If I'm So Smart, Why Can't I Lose Weight? And what we really did was dive in to the emotional side of eating, which really rocked my world. And I lost that weight within about six months. And I was somebody who I joke, that I was, I really had a PhD in being a couch potato. I mean, I refused to exercise, I didn't want anyone telling me what I could or couldn't eat, and it really rocked my world. And I thought, If I can lose this extra weight, then I want to help other women do it. And so I became, I added weight loss coaching to my repertoire. And what I started to notice after coaching hundreds of women was, I was really spending the bulk of my time, because I could help anybody lose weight. It's really the inner deep work that makes weight loss sustainable, and it has nothing, I promise, to do with calories in, calories out, no pain no gain, all that stuff we're taught. It's really about, Is this woman cherishing herself, loving herself, giving herself enough daily pleasure so that she's not getting her entertainment from food, so that she's not getting her comfort from food, so that she's not numbing out. And I really started to notice that my clients, I could help them lose 50, 100 pounds, and then they would start complaining about other parts of their bodies. So yes, they had lost the weight, but now they were fixated on stretch marks, or, I still have a muffin top, or, Maybe I should get cosmetic surgery. And I started focusing on learning how to love your body as it is, right now. And THEN we'll do this other stuff. And BINGO! Everything changed. And so I developed this process called BARE, and it's really a process of bringing a woman back to herself. And figuring out that diet just keeps you on this deprivation cycle that you can't win. And the diet industry's actually counting on that. It's like, I think the latest statistic, it's a over 100 billion dollar industry and it's designed to keep you dissatisfied with how you look so that you keep spending money trying to become something else . Slade: Wow. Do you remember what the breaking point was for you? The shift that happened in your own mindset. I mean, now, working with the other clients, you were able to see it from outside and observe it in controlled environment. But when that happened to you, can you go back and remember what that mindset shift was? Susan: Yeah, I can remember. There was this moment, it was, I think maybe I had lost about 16 pounds of the 35 to 40, and we were going on spring break vacation and my daughter at the time was maybe 7. And I bought a new bikini and I was so excited in the store about having this bathing suit. And I remember my coach wanted me, she made a joke about a client of hers that she had asked to take a picture of herself in a swimsuit and send it to her. And when the photo arrived, it was a photo of her client flipping her off. And I started laughing and I said, "Don't ever assign that to me." And she was like, "Oh, really?? That's your homework then!" And so I have my daughter, I put my swimsuit on, I was actually feeling great. My little 8-year old Emily takes a photo of me and I felt fine the entire process. Until I looked at the photo on my big desktop screen. And all of a sudden, all of these really negative thoughts started flooding in. That were still there about, Oh, you don't look as good as you thought, and just really self-violent thoughts that almost all women have about their bodies. And I thought, You've got some real work to do. And I often think about, I was doing a webinar yesterday and I was talking about this. When you look at little kids. Say a film crew shows up at an elementary school, little kids are fighting, shoving each other out of the way to be seen on camera. This is an exciting thing, like, Look at me, I'm on TV! And at some point, we receive messages from either family of origin or culture at large that the way that you look is not acceptable. And by the time we reach our age, we're so full of these messages that we should look a certain way and we're not good enough. And in that moment when I looked at myself on screen, I was like, You have got to figure out how to be like that again. Be like, There I am! Look at me! And show up. And stop this hiding because you have some cellulite or whatever it might be. And that was really a moment, an AHA moment, a breaking point moment, a moment where I shifted and decided to devote myself to figuring that out. And I did! And I can tell you that people are always asking me, I don't understand how you get all that stuff done. And I can tell you, the reason I get so much stuff done, is because I'm no longer obsessing about food and body and how I look. Slade: Mmm... Tell me about, well, first I have to tell you. You probably know this about me but I like to personify the archetypes, I like to communicate with voices, a lot of the work I do with people is around policing the negative self talk. You know, it's really about learning how to, not only identify that, but one of the things that you pointed out was, these voices come from your family and society. They don't come from your higher self. They don't come from little kid you. You've got them from somewhere. You took them on, you download them, and you call them your own thoughts and they're really not. I noticed when I was looking at your website, before the interview, that you have an archetype called the Inner Mean Girl. Tell me about her. Is that who it is that's saying all these mean things? Susan: Yes! And you're absolutely right. These thoughts that we absorb and take on as our own, we were not born into this world with those kind of beliefs. We picked them up along the way and yeah, your inner mean girl is the one saying really horrible things to you about yourself that are untrue and the way that you know they're not true is because they make you feel horrible. And I think most women think that that is because they talk with their girlfriends, they talk with their mom, they talk with other people and everybody goes, "Oh yeah! Me too!" And so they think, Well that's normal and that's just the way it is. But it is prevalent in our culture but it's not what we were meant to experience, and so we have to clap back at that and tell the mean girl to have a seat and educate her on how you want to be treated. And you can flip the dialogue on that and practice talking back to her and saying kind things, because, listen, even if you want to argue with me and say, No, but she's right. I DO need to lose weight. I don't exercise. I am lazy. You've to to ask yourself different questions and tell yourself different things so that you change your behaviour, but there's no upside to self-violent thoughts, if you haven't noticed. There's no upside to it. Slade: Right. Susan: It doesn't help in any way. Slade: So you recently landed a big book deal. And I know this because we're friends on Facebook and you've been talking about the process and everything. Is this book deal, The BARE Message, is that what this is about? Tell me about the book. Susan: The book is called BARE, and we're still working on the subtitle. But thank you very much. Yes, I'm so excited to have a book deal for it. It's basically - Slade: Yay! Congrats! Susan: Thank you!!! I'm so stoked! Actually, just had a meeting with my publishing team yesterday, and they are on it. It's gonna be fire. I cannot wait for it to hit. Actually, pre-sale, the book is not going to be out until January of 2019, so there's a big process to getting these books out into the world, and I'm slightly impatient... Slade: Yeah... Susan: I would like it to be in your hands tomorrow, but pre-orders, actually, will start fairly soon, but the books will not ship until January. And yes, it's a book full of personal stories and client stories and it walks you through the BARE process. And the thing that I like about the BARE process is - so when you get the book, it's a story, and then there's a challenge. So it gets you taking action immediately. Side note, I have a podcast, the BARE podcast, which is going to drop on iTunes maybe by next week, so people, while they're waliting on the book, can check out the podcast. I'm dropping an entire season at once, so it can walk people through... there's 8 episodes in season 1. It walks people through the BARE process. You can do it on your own or you can decide to hire a coach to help you. Slade: Oh! Okay. You also have, for people who don't want to wait, who want to dive in and work with it, this platform, this work, this material exists in various forms. You have a community, an online community around it already, right? Susan: Yeah, yeah! It's called BARE Daily. The way that it's set up is, if someone joins the community, they get access, a username and password to an online classroom that has the BARE process in videos, so you can watch a video, there's homework assignments, there's tons of stuff in there. And then, in the private forum, I'm in there every day and so are my BARE coaches. So let's say you sign up and you start doing the BARE process, and you hit a wall or you have an issue, which you will. Coaches are there 24/7 to coach you through what's happening in the forum. So it's really a sweet set up. Slade: I have to ask you this question. I love to ask everyone this, and I'm trying to learn to ask it in a more postitive way, but, as someone who's spent some time now in the personal development world, what do you most hope to change about the conversation? Susan: So many things, Slade. So many things. Primarily, I want to disrupt diet culture. So the segment of the self-help industry that focuses on food, body and weight, I want to change the conversation from fear and deprivation to pleasure, love, positivity. So that's number one. People who are promoting unhealthy, unsustainable lifestyle changes, things that you wrap your body in, or starve yourself. All these kinds of things. I definitely want to, not flip the switch, flip the table on those folks. And then, also, the part of the self-help industry that is selling a bill of goods around, how do I say this? So I'm a big believer in spiritual grease plus elbow grease. Meaning, Yes, the Universe has your back. Yes, the Universe is conspiring in your favour. And whatever higher power you believe in, yes, your higher power, your higher self wants you to have everything that you crave. But you have to couple that faith in belief with action. And so, I get pretty worn out with people who are selling the idea that if you just believe it hard enough, it will happen. Slade: Mmm... yeah. Like the law of attraction method, I mean, not like specifically, but some of that stuff. Like thinking it will be true, feel your way into the reality, that kind of stuff? Susan: Yeah, because it's only part of the story. I have dear friends who are big law of attraction teachers, and I think people misunderstand it and they think, Well if I pay this money and I make a vision board, and I just believe that I'm going to own a Mercedes, and it's going to appear in my driveway... And tomorrow, I'm going to be dancing with Cardi B and Bruno Mars. It's gonna happen. Yes, if you do some things to put yourself in the path of Cardi B, if you do some work and go to the Mercedes dealership, you know? Slade: Right. Susan: It's just, I believe in magic, I believe in miracles, but I grew up Catholic. I'm a recovered Catholic. But my mother used to always say, God helps those who help themselves! And I guess that's really stuck with me, because I believe that to be true that, yes these miraculous things can happen, but you have to get out of your own way and do some work. Slade: I actually believe that too and I wasn't even indoctrinated to believe it. But that line, you know, God helps those who help themselves, really does work for me. You know, if somebody says it to me and I'm like, Amen! You know what I mean? Susan: Hallelujah! Slade: And I do write and teach law of attraction stuff in hopefully my corrected methods but, one of the things I like to introduce into the conversation is that, what you describe that the vision board thing is like working with one element as opposed to all the sacred elements. It's like legs on a stool kind of thing. You've got some other legs you've got to attach to this thing before it'll stand up. Susan: Yeah! And I totally, I mean I do vision board workshops online. It's not... I love all those things. They just have to be combined, like you said, with other practices. Slade: Well that's one of the reasons I wanted you to be on here. Because this is fewer hearts and flowers, we still love all the spiritual stuff, right? And the thing I love about you is you embody that very down to earth use of these things as tools. It's not an airy fairy thing for you. You love to show yourself doing it. You're on camera a lot. People can Facebook live right into your office on a daily basis. Susan: Yeah, it's true. Slade: And I love that about you too because you're never full hair and make up and wearing a glitter gown, except in a photo shoot, which you do. You get that out of your system. Susan: You gotta bring the big guns in sometimes, but yeah, on a daily basis I'm typically in my work out clothes with no make up. Slade: Well, you know what? That was very inspiring to me as I was developing this podcast and putting it out, because one of the pieces of advice that I got was, just don't worry about the intro music and the this and the that at the other thing. It's about you speaking, it's about the content, and it's about letting people hear you and the guests that you connect with. Just think of it as a big voice mail. Just take it down a notch. And that was very freeing for me. And you and I had a little interaction on Facebook probably about a year ago about that whole thing and you encouraged me. You were like, Yeah, people need to see you. Susan: Hmm? Slade: That probably will be my next step. Is to get to let my face be out there more. But that's one of those things... Susan: Dude! Why would you not let your face be seen??? You're a hottie! Slade: Because! Susan: McHotterson! You are depriving your audience of... You will be blessing the interwebs with your face. Slade: Alright. Susan: I need to come over there and smack you around. Slade: Well you'll be proud to know that I'm going to do my first Facebook live next week. For my - Susan: Next week?! How about this afternoon?? Slade: Well because it's a training for my Automatic Intuition peeps, so they get to be exposed to me first. But I was thinking about it and I was like, Yeah, you know what? I'm just going to sit on camera and... And I totally thought I 'm going to do this Susan Hyatt style. That you were my inspiration for that. Susan: That's awesome. And I have to say, that's part of the BARE process. Is to make you seen and be seen. So you have to, the more you allow yourself to be seen and take up space, the more you can conquer those voices that say that you shouldn't, that you don't look alright, like, whatever. Put yourselves out there, people. Slade: Well that was kind of my last big question for you, was about the whole make a scene concept. We're all rooting for you, living through you vicariously, as you're making your scenes and posting about that. And people just have to follow you online to get the full experience of what I'm talking about, because it unfolds, as you encounter things in your daily life and you share it. So, I used to, my friends in college actually used to call me Julie Sugarbaker, and I was notorious for telling some people off. You know what I mean? And I was really good at it. But I reached a point where I kind of had to dial back a lot of my anger. I had to go all the way back, strip back down and work my way back up again, and as we all know, this last year or so has been very trying when it comes to posting things online about your, the things that you're pissed about. I always look at you and I'm like, How is she coming out smelling like a rose every time? Because you are so good at doing something. Like, if I do what you do, I end up in a flame war. I mean... Susan: Oh! You mean with your following. People get mad. Slade: Yes! Like, you are so good at treading the line on making the scene and sharing the fact that you're pissed and putting it out there and calling stuff out without, somehow, ending up in tears at the end of the day and you wasted your whole day arguing with people online. So I'm wondering, What am I missing? Where do we draw the line there? How do you police that energy? Susan: So I have an unfair advantage, and my unfair advantage is that I have, for 19 years, parented a man named Ryan Hyatt. And Ryan Hyatt is some of the biggest most challenging energy that you could encounter. So I feel like I have been in boot camp with how to have boundaries, express feelings, call it like it is, in a way that doesn't set fire to everything. Sometimes I do want to set fire to everything, so there's number one. So sorry Slade, I'm going to have to ship Ryan off to you so that you can get some practice with that before, but... Secondly, I think I'm always, one of the things that I teach in writing, or when I'm training coaches on how to come up with content, how to come up with content for Facebook, how to come up with content for your blog, for your podcast, for whatever reason, a fellow Sugarbaker over here, I have always been able to come up with topics more readily, more easily, if I think about what has irritated me or pissed me off lately. And then what I do is say, Okay, I'm really irritated about whatever, these people who are selling diets. Then I try to come up, before I open my mouth, I try to come up with the life coachy solution to it, so that it's not just a rant. That I'm offering my displeasure, and I'm all, Let me tell you something, but I couch it in, Well here's what you could do for yourself if you're experiencing this too. And so I think that's what keeps it from just being something that would ruin someone's day. My day, your day, whatever. Slade: I like it. Susan: Yeah. So there's a little bit... Then also, you know it, I do get hate mail, I do get people who disagree and who will post things, but I shut it down pretty quickly. I don't let them have a platform on my platform. I'm open minded, so if they're talking about something respectfully and they just disagree, that's fine. But if they're trying to set fire to my Facebook thread, then they're immediately blocked. That's it. You don't get to come over on my page and do that. Sorry. Slade: You know what? I actually realized as you were saying this that, I teach this in terms of, journalling. I used to keep diaries a lot and that's a big tool for me and at some point I realized, it was nothing but whining. And when I did Morning Pages for the first time, the Julia Cameron style, I remember being like, You know what? I'm not just going to bitch every morning for 15 minutes. How's that a way to start the day? So I made a rule with myself that the only way that I can mention something that was wrong in my diary is if I put a potential solution there. Or, I am broke, here's what I'm going to do about it, kind of thing. And I teach that to people a lot. You can't, it's one thing to, like you said, it's one thing to rant, and it's one thing to vent, but I think even venting in your private space, without having constructive context, is damaging. You're just letting the inner mean girl have a dance party in your head. Susan: Right. Slade: So, what's next for you? You've got this big book coming out but it's going to take awhile. So what are you going to do in the meantime? Susan: So what I'm doing in the meantime is, I'm trying to build my BARE membership community up and I am spending a lot of time inside there. We have cooking classes and exercise classes... Just all kinds of great content that happens privately in there. I'll be spending most of my time in there. I'm also doing some international retreats this year. One to Italy that's already sold out and one to England and maybe one to Paris. That's one of my favorite cities. And then I'm training a bunch of BARE coaches, so coaches in the BARE methodology, so that they can spread this far and wide, and just on my regular! Slade: It must be fun to be you. Susan: It IS fun to be me! And I tell you, I remind myself of that every morning when my inner mean girl wants to whine about how much she has to do. I slap her around and tell her she is so lucky, that she's to stay in the miracle and be grateful for this practice and this business and this life. Slade: Mmm... Susan, I truly do love your energy. I could talk to you all day long, and one of the reasons why I had to get you on my show is because you'll probably be too famous next year to be on my show. Susan: Stop it! Never too famous for you. Slade: Anyway, it was fantastic to get to capture a chat with you and introduce you to some of my peeps who may not have heard of you before. So tell everyone where where they can go to find you online. Susan: Thank you so much, by the way. This was a delight. My website URL, is SHyatt.com. And then you can follow me on Instragram @SusanHyatt, or on also Facebook, same handle. Thank you for coming on the show Susan. Susan: Thank you! Thanks again for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast. For show notes, links, and all the past episodes please visit www.shiftyourspirits.com You can subscribe in iTunes or Stitcher or whatever app you use to access podcasts. If you’d like to get an intuitive reading with me or download a free ebook and meditation to help you connect with your guides please go to https://sladeroberson.com/ and if you’re interested in my professional intuitive training program, you can start the course for free by downloading the Attunement at https://automaticintuition.com/

Hear more English at: http://fullenglishexperience.com/.  'Hear English' and 'The Full English Experience' are blogs that provide podcasts and transcripts to help people learn English, find us at http://hearenglishhere.blogspot.com/.Free image courtesy of 'stockfreeimages.com'The Water Cooler (Slow)Too slow? Try the faster version in the next post. They may look like busy professionals, but the staff at Colourful Solutions Ltd (Colsol), aren’t always as serious or hardworking as they appear, and we find out what mischief they’ve been up to as they talk around the water cooler.Click above to listen.  You can get the mp3. here.Episode 8 - Health and Safety (Slow) Too slow? Try the faster version in the next post. Featuring the vocal talents of Sophie Iafrate (Susan).  (Free sound effects courtesy of 'Soundjay.com'), Susan: Good morning Keith.  Have you seen the new health and safety rules have been sent to everyone?  I think we have to sign something to say we have read then and promise to abide by them.  It all seems a bit unnecessary.Keith: I did see them.  In fact, I have already filed them for future reference.Susan: Really?  I thought you were going to complain like you usually do!  And as for filing – I didn’t think you even had a filing system in place… wait a second.  Keith, you haven’t filed your document; you’ve put it in the waste paper bin.Keith: Exactly, appropriate filing is absolutely essential.Susan: Well, even if it is a bit over the top, I do think you ought to at least take a look at the updated requirements Keith.Keith: [dramatic sighing] OK, but I can’t see what it will say that I don’t already know.  Health and Safety is really just common sense.Later…Susan: [entering room] Ahh! Why are there hazard signs all around my desk?  Keith, do you have anything to do with this?  Why are you wearing a helmet?Keith: Well Susan, I followed your advice and read the Health and Safety document.  It was eye-opening.  Are you aware of the number of dangers present in your work area?Susan: I might have known you would take this too literally.Janet: Hello team. I am afraid that we need to discuss the new risk assessments we have to consider.  What has happened to your desk Susan?Keith: Ah, that was me Janet.  I am afraid that Susan’s desk constituted a major risk according to these new rules.Janet: Really?  Which things have you highlighted?  Hmm, a personal photo frame with glass.  Yes, I suppose that is a risk, it might be best if you took that home Susan.  And a coffee cup without a lid could be very dangerous if it had boiling water in it.  Maybe you could change to a cup with a lid.Keith: Or you could only drink chilled drinks.  No ice though; that is a choking hazard.Janet: What else? The chair too?  Yes, I can see that now.  Whilst this might be a very comfortable chair, I don’t imagine it is the best one for at a desk.  We will have to swap it for an upright one.Keith: Chairs without cushions are recommended in this case.Susan: Honestly, this is just Keith being silly.Janet: It might appear that way Susan, but we really can’t be too careful these days.Keith: ha ha ha, sorry, a bit of a cough there.Janet:  Do you know what Keith? We need to recruit some more Health and Safety officers now, and I must admit that I didn’t even consider you before.  It means doing more administrative chores and there are monthly meetings to attend and I didn’t think it would interest you.  However, you are clearly passionate about Health and Safety, so I will put your name forward with strong recommendations.  Plus, I will leave you in charge of the risk assessments.  I am sure you will enjoy doing this far more than Susan.Keith: But…Susan: Congratulations Keith.  You know what they say: if that cap fits, wear it.

Hear more English at: http://fullenglishexperience.com/.  'Hear English' and 'The Full English Experience' are blogs that provide podcasts and transcripts to help people learn English, find us at http://hearenglishhere.blogspot.com/.Free image courtesy of 'stockfreeimages.com'The Water Cooler (Fast)Too fast? Try the slower version in the previous post. They may look like busy professionals, but the staff at Colourful Solutions Ltd (Colsol), aren’t always as serious or hardworking as they appear, and we find out what mischief they’ve been up to as they talk around the water cooler.Click above to listen.  You can get the mp3. here. Episode 8 - Health and Safety (Fast) Too fast? Try the slower version in the previous post. Featuring the vocal talents of Sophie Iafrate (Susan).  (Free sound effects courtesy of 'Soundjay.com'),Susan: Good morning Keith.  Have you seen the new health and safety rules have been sent to everyone?  I think we have to sign something to say we have read then and promise to abide by them.  It all seems a bit unnecessary.Keith: I did see them.  In fact, I have already filed them for future reference.Susan: Really?  I thought you were going to complain like you usually do!  And as for filing – I didn’t think you even had a filing system in place… wait a second.  Keith, you haven’t filed your document; you’ve put it in the waste paper bin.Keith: Exactly, appropriate filing is absolutely essential.Susan: Well, even if it is a bit over the top, I do think you ought to at least take a look at the updated requirements Keith.Keith: [dramatic sighing] OK, but I can’t see what it will say that I don’t already know.  Health and Safety is really just common sense.Later…Susan: [entering room] Ahh! Why are there hazard signs all around my desk?  Keith, do you have anything to do with this?  Why are you wearing a helmet?Keith: Well Susan, I followed your advice and read the Health and Safety document.  It was eye-opening.  Are you aware of the number of dangers present in your work area?Susan: I might have known you would take this too literally.Janet: Hello team. I am afraid that we need to discuss the new risk assessments we have to consider.  What has happened to your desk Susan?Keith: Ah, that was me Janet.  I am afraid that Susan’s desk constituted a major risk according to these new rules.Janet: Really?  Which things have you highlighted?  Hmm, a personal photo frame with glass.  Yes, I suppose that is a risk, it might be best if you took that home Susan.  And a coffee cup without a lid could be very dangerous if it had boiling water in it.  Maybe you could change to a cup with a lid.Keith: Or you could only drink chilled drinks.  No ice though; that is a choking hazard.Janet: What else? The chair too?  Yes, I can see that now.  Whilst this might be a very comfortable chair, I don’t imagine it is the best one for at a desk.  We will have to swap it for an upright one.Keith: Chairs without cushions are recommended in this case.Susan: Honestly, this is just Keith being silly.Janet: It might appear that way Susan, but we really can’t be too careful these days.Keith: ha ha ha, sorry, a bit of a cough there.Janet:  Do you know what Keith? We need to recruit some more Health and Safety officers now, and I must admit that I didn’t even consider you before.  It means doing more administrative chores and there are monthly meetings to attend and I didn’t think it would interest you.  However, you are clearly passionate about Health and Safety, so I will put your name forward with strong recommendations.  Plus, I will leave you in charge of the risk assessments.  I am sure you will enjoy doing this far more than Susan.Keith: But…Susan: Congratulations Keith.  You know what they say: if that cap fits, wear it.

成人微信学英语，咨询报名：abcjust9关注公众号：江山国际英语，发现更多有趣、有用的知识。插图：桑桑老师：Cathy音乐：Counting starts -OneRepubicCount me in 把我算上吧朋友们打算一起去旅行，你也非常感兴趣，你可以说：“Count me in."意思是“把我也算上吧。”但是你不太想去的话，就可以说：“Count me out."意思是别算上我。例句Susan:Well, Jeff, you can count me in. 苏珊：嗯，杰夫，你可以算我一份。Please count me in this project. 请让我参加这个项目。If you are going to a movie, count me in. 如果你们要去看电影，我也要一起去。留言翻译：听起来不错，算上我一个。

'Hear English' is a blog that provides podcasts and transcripts to help people learn English, find us at http://hearenglishhere.blogspot.com/.Free image courtesy of 'stockfreeimages.com'The Water Cooler (Slow)Too slow? Try the faster version in the next post. They may look like busy professionals, but the staff at Colourful Solutions Ltd (Colsol), aren’t always as serious or hardworking as they appear, and we find out what mischief they’ve been up to as they talk around the water cooler.Click above to listen.  You can get the mp3. here.Episode 7 - Bees (Slow) Too slow? Try the faster version in the next post. Featuring the vocal talents of Sophie Iafrate (Susan).  (Free sound effects courtesy of 'Soundjay.com'), Susan: Hello Keith.  What have you got there?Keith: I thought our office was looking a little drab so I have brought some flowers in to liven it up.   A little bit of colour will boost our morale.Susan: That is a lovely idea, but I am very allergic to flowers.  Didn’t you hear me saying to Janet yesterday how bad my hay fever was this year?  Keith: How terrible Susan, I had no idea.  Well, I will keep them to my side of the office then; I’ll even open the window to ventilate the room a bit.  Here, you can put the trophy I won for being a good team player on your desk; that will keep your side of the office from looking too glum.Susan:  You didn’t win that trophy Keith, I know that you bought it yourself; your story for why you were awarded that trophy changes every time.  Besides, it is no good, there is too much pollen in the air now.  I will go and see if I can work in another office for the rest of the day.Keith:  Finally, an office all to myself. The perfect crime! Eh eh eh.A few minutes later…Janet: Keith, thank goodness I have found you here.Keith: I was only getting a quick cup of coffee, I will be back in my office in just a jiffy.Janet:  No!  Don’t even think of going back into your office – it is full of bees!Keith: Full of bees?  Janet: Yes, I have no idea why, but a huge swarm of bees has flown in through your window.  Something must have attracted them, and I can’t see how we are going to get them out again.  We have closed off the room.  Thank goodness Susan wasn’t in there at the time; she said that something in there was aggravating her hay fever.  Ah, there you are Susan, is everything OK?            Susan: Yes.  I was going to move all my things into the storage room at the end of the corridor until the bee situation is sorted out.  That will do as an office for the short-term.Janet:  Hmm, I’m not sure that is the best room for you Susan.  It’s really dusty in there, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that room wouldn’t also set off your hay fever.  Tell you what, I am away on business for the rest of the week, so why don’t you take my office?Keith: I suppose I will have to join you.Janet: Sorry Keith, but even though my office may look expansive and spacious, it is really only due to the tasteful styling and clever layout of furniture.  Honestly, there is only room for one person to comfortably work in there.  I know the storage room isn’t very nice, but considering that you don’t suffer from hay fever, I think it is best that you take that as your temporary office, just until we get pest control in.Keith: The storage room! That doesn’t even have a window.Susan: Well, how about you take your hard-won trophy in there with you?  That is sure to brighten the place up.

'Hear English' is a blog that provides podcasts and transcripts to help people learn English, find us at http://hearenglishhere.blogspot.com/.Free image courtesy of 'stockfreeimages.com'The Water Cooler (Fast)Too fast? Try the slower version in the previous post. They may look like busy professionals, but the staff at Colourful Solutions Ltd (Colsol), aren’t always as serious or hardworking as they appear, and we find out what mischief they’ve been up to as they talk around the water cooler.Click above to listen.  You can get the mp3. here. Episode 7 - Bees (Fast) Too fast? Try the slower version in the previous post. Featuring the vocal talents of Sophie Iafrate (Susan).  (Free sound effects courtesy of 'Soundjay.com'),Susan: Hello Keith.  What have you got there?Keith: I thought our office was looking a little drab so I have brought some flowers in to liven it up.   A little bit of colour will boost our morale.Susan: That is a lovely idea, but I am very allergic to flowers.  Didn’t you hear me saying to Janet yesterday how bad my hay fever was this year? Keith: How terrible Susan, I had no idea.  Well, I will keep them to my side of the office then; I’ll even open the window to ventilate the room a bit.  Here, you can put the trophy I won for being a good team player on your desk; that will keep your side of the office from looking too glum.Susan:  You didn’t win that trophy Keith, I know that you bought it yourself; your story for why you were awarded that trophy changes every time.  Besides, it is no good, there is too much pollen in the air now.  I will go and see if I can work in another office for the rest of the day.Keith:  Finally, an office all to myself. The perfect crime! Eh eh eh.A few minutes later…Janet: Keith, thank goodness I have found you here.Keith: I was only getting a quick cup of coffee, I will be back in my office in just a jiffy.Janet:  No!  Don’t even think of going back into your office – it is full of bees!Keith: Full of bees? Janet: Yes, I have no idea why, but a huge swarm of bees has flown in through your window.  Something must have attracted them, and I can’t see how we are going to get them out again.  We have closed off the room.  Thank goodness Susan wasn’t in there at the time; she said that something in there was aggravating her hay fever.  Ah, there you are Susan, is everything OK?           Susan: Yes.  I was going to move all my things into the storage room at the end of the corridor until the bee situation is sorted out.  That will do as an office for the short-term.Janet:  Hmm, I’m not sure that is the best room for you Susan.  It’s really dusty in there, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that room wouldn’t also set off your hay fever.  Tell you what, I am away on business for the rest of the week, so why don’t you take my office?Keith: I suppose I will have to join you.Janet: Sorry Keith, but even though my office may look expansive and spacious, it is really only due to the tasteful styling and clever layout of furniture.  Honestly, there is only room for one person to comfortably work in there.  I know the storage room isn’t very nice, but considering that you don’t suffer from hay fever, I think it is best that you take that as your temporary office, just until we get pest control in.Keith: The storage room! That doesn’t even have a window.Susan: Well, how about you take your hard-won trophy in there with you?  That is sure to brighten the place up.