Podcasts about so sue

On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, Brenda McCabe speaks with Sue Tinnish- an executive coach working with CEO's and Presidents of middle-market companies. They discuss "unleashing creativity for business excellence" , ranging from Sue's experience while in hospitality to make events interactive and engaging, to using playfulness with very complex issues in analogies and stories to lead good alignment of the organization. Sue is a seasoned professional who has worked in a variety of settings. She has a diverse background in business with specific skills in leadership, formulating strategy, managing change, building teams, and delivering on strategic and tactical projects. She is currently an executive coach working with CEOs and Presidents of middle-market companies. She supports executives as they deal with their own leadership issues (delegation, time management, prioritization, decision making & mindset) as well as supporting their organization's growth addressing issues like talent optimization, sales, finance and risk. Sue earned her PhD from Benedictine University in Lisle, Illinois. She holds an M.B.A. with a concentration in finance and marketing from University of Chicago's Booth School and a B.S. in communication studies from Northwestern University.  And she likes to have fun! You can find out more about Sue Tinnish at: Linked IN https://www.linkedin.com/in/suetinnish/ or Contact her at: Sue.tinnish@vistagechair.com Resources: Why playfulness matters in Startup to Scale up. https://www.humorseriously.com/     Transcript 00:04 Welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host. This monthly podcast is now in its second season and it reaches entrepreneurs and business owners who learn about building resilient, scalable, and sustainable. 00:32 and sustainable businesses, all with great corporate governance. I wanna assist entrepreneurs and business owners in building these scalable, well-governed and resilient businesses. And I bring guests to the podcast that are themselves, founders, business owners, corporate board directors, investors and professional service providers, like Sue Tinnish, who's with us today. We all share a common... 01:01 interest in this using the power of the private enterprise, be that small, medium, and large, to create change for a better world. Through storytelling with each of my guests on topics that are gonna include their own experience with resilience, purpose-driven enterprises, and sustainable growth, my goal with the Founder Sandbox is to provide a fun sandbox environment where we can equip one startup founder at a time to build a better world through great corporate governance. 01:30 So today my guest again is Sue Tinnish. Thank you so much for joining me here, Sue. So happy to join you, Brenda, in this context. Excellent. Sue's joined in the podcast today in her capacity as a Vistage leader. For those who are actually seeing the video, I love your back screen, leading a life of a climb with Vistage. 01:57 She also has, as a member of Vistage, shares oftentimes in LinkedIn a newsletter called Making a Difference. I encourage everyone to follow Sue in LinkedIn because the messages that come across in this newsletter do resonate with business owners on making a difference. Today, we chose a topic, again, I'm all about resilience, sustainability, and purpose-driven 02:26 businesses. And when speaking with Sue on and off, we both share University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, Abu School is our background, right? That's we didn't meet there. But we did meet the alumni network is really quite active. And we discovered that we both use innovation and creativity with the work we do with our with our clients and 02:54 As I learned more of Sue's background, which I'll get to in a minute, I was just fascinated on specific tools, techniques, writing that she's used over the last 20 years at least. I'm gonna give you a brief introduction to Sue. She has a diverse background in business with specific skills in leadership, formulating strategy. 03:22 managing change, building teams and delivering a strategic and tactical projects. She is currently executive coach, working with CEOs and presidents of middle market companies. Prior to this activity, she's had experiences in academia, corporate banking, consulting and being an entrepreneur herself. So you check a lot of boxes, Sue. I thank you. I thank you again. 03:51 Also, the other aspect that we want to explore today is kind of you're a co-chair of the Chicago based Vistage Chief Executive Group and it's co-led by a male and a female. And I believe it's one of the unique or only chapters that is co-led and you're bringing in the diversity to the actual classroom itself. So I'd love to learn a little bit more later. All right. 04:19 So Sue and I have been in contact through our affiliation to the Chicago Women's Alliance. And I'm absolutely delighted that Sue's gonna tell us a little bit about some of the tools and techniques she explores as leader of Vistage. So can you share what has been a common denominator through your professional journey that has released or discovered, which you've discovered creativity? 04:49 Such an interesting question. So I guess I would say that as a leader, I've always had a real strong focus on people and teams. And so I really have encompassed playfulness, humor, and really creativity to help foster organizational growth. But it's really through people that that has happened. So that's been a very common denominator. And 05:18 I grew up in an era where what I was taught and learned about management was a little more like straight-laced and forward. And just my own personal growth, I really discovered, you know, through the process of learning and growing, I've discovered that that's not necessarily the way that you have to be. And I also think that, you know, interestingly, being a female, we bring different skill sets to the environment. 05:47 being more authentic has been meant that I've relied both on my own sense of humor, curiosity and playfulness to be effective. And you bring that into those monthly meetings with CEOs, I'm certain. Yes. You know, you, one of the articles that will later be in the show notes, is you brought in or explored kind of the entertainment. 06:16 element as a platform that unleashes creativity when you were working in the hospitality sector. Can you walk us through that specific kind of experience? It was, again, when you helped me prepare this, I was reading with awe. I was like, wow, I hadn't ever, you know, it goes back quite a while to 06:39 Yes. So when I worked in hospitality, I specifically worked in sort of the meetings and events and conference space. Okay. And my focus was really on how to create more innovative learning environments in that space. So it wasn't really focused on the logistics or the hotel arrangements or even the food and beverage. And really, earlier in my career, I spent a lot of time focusing on training and 07:09 And so I really thought a lot about how can you make these events, meetings, really more interactive and engaging in a way that's also going to create more knowledge, that's going to make what's happening in those meetings really stick. And so entertainment was one of those fields that I explored to talk about why entertainment can both be entertaining, but also. 07:38 or valuable in helping messaging stick. So like one example would be, think about like the topic of sexual harassment in Illinois, in many places most organizations. It's a requirement. It's a requirement, exactly. So no one's gonna raise their hand and say, oh yes, in a public environment, I've been sexually harassed or I'm a harasser. But when you use actors or entertainment or some kind of role playing, 08:08 a delicate subject out there in a way that people can maybe see themselves or see themselves in that situation and allow themselves to really go internally, aha, I understand now what has happened because of what I've seen on the stage. So I think entertainment can be used in a more strategic way beyond just being entertaining. 08:33 That is fascinating. And thank you for specifically providing an example. I'm just actually visually imagining a setup whereby a hairy topic is addressed in kind of an entertaining way with actors. Amazing. And I liked what you said about it allows maybe some of the learning that is happening within the meeting to stick. 09:01 because one is more relaxed, laughing, right? I actually had written a blog about two years ago on why playfulness matters in startup to scale up. And I discovered kind of five fundamental elements that I have seen or I've observed, I've introduced to my clients, there's no rules, right? 09:27 to generate more ideas, have a problem statement, allow people from all different levels of the organization compete in generating those ideas. But more importantly, when you were talking about the sexual harassment or using entertainment with professional actors, one founder I worked with actually brought in a surprise question at the end of the all hands on deck meeting. 09:56 And then there was a prize. So it really got people to pay attention to what the monthly message was about as the corporation grew. So I'm very happy to know that I'm doing something right and you're basing it on many years of experience in Vistage as well as the entertainment, the hospitality industry. So thank you. I'd like you to, I pride myself on lots of 10:26 really practical nuts and bolts in this podcast that listeners can take away and bring into their own companies. And so you provided some insight on Harry Gardner's similar work on people's concept of multiple intelligences. And there's seven ways people are intelligent. And then you bring that in actually to some of the tools and techniques you use in your session. So can you provide that background on? 10:54 Yeah, sure. What about intelligence? So, you know, Rhonda, you and I, we think we're fairly intelligent. We went to a fabulous business school. And yet, if we were in, you know, the outback of Australia trying to survive, we would not be as smart or as intelligent as an Aboriginal woman. And so there are different ways that we think. And obviously there's been a huge interest in EQ, you know, emotional intelligence, 11:24 IQ, but really, when you start to think about the skills that a surgeon might have, or an architect, they have kinesthetic skills that maybe other people don't. And so kinesthetic is another form of intelligence. Naturalism. There are people that have natural affinity to mathematics. And so you can think about your group, and some groups are more 11:53 homogenous, like an industry group, like an association. So you can think about what kind of natural intelligence that group might have, and then you can target some of the learning and the sessions in a way that's gonna harness the way that those people think. And it may not be humor or playfulness, but you're really leaning into their strengths. And I think that's so important in this topic of adult learning. That is fascinating. Again, I am... 12:24 the seven, you know, one was musical. Again, back to some of the writing I did, and I just saw it reinforced when listening to you is, you know, Mozart was a learner, but he would, he would have to write the music, but then he would never, but to keep it in his memory, and then he would never use it again. But it's really fascinating how I imagine in your Vistage meetings, you have a 12:54 cohort of, I don't know, 10 or 12. You create a safe space where CEOs are sharing current business challenges. Ultimately, they leave the monthly meetings though, and are gonna communicate decisions made to the companies that they lead, right? Yes. How do you share with them how to bring in humor if it's required, right? For the leaders communication, what have you seen to be more effective? 13:24 in some cases. Well, first of all, I'd say that, humor does not mean that you're a standup comedian. Really, when I think about humor, I think about it as more as like levity. And so my first tip always is not to be caustic or sarcastic, cause that's not gonna fly. But leaders can bring in this levity to their communication. I say in several ways. One would be just being able to laugh at yourself. Okay. 13:53 much more approachable, it helps build rapport and trust, and it makes you more authentic and human. So that's the first way, just being able to laugh at yourself. The second way is I think you can use a joke, a little levity to just capture people's attention. You know, we've all been in meetings, blah, blah, blah. Yes. Non-drona. So humor's an opportunity to catch people's attention and really get them to sit up. 14:21 Kind of like the example you were saying before about the leader that had something at the price. I also think maybe it's not exactly humor, but certainly playfulness. It allows you to take complex ideas and make them more simple. Not saying that you're trying to dumb down the conversation, but the kind of strategic issues that leaders are facing these days can be difficult to communicate. And so a little bit of humor or playfulness 14:51 really allows people to make things understandable. Like specifically, I would think about metaphors or analogies, those are great ways, or good stories can help communicate these more complex ideas to people so that people can remember them, and then you have good alignment in the organization. So those are just three tips. Right, and what about storytelling? You just... 15:19 touched it at the end of your comments there, but I've observed primarily because of the working from home and having distributed teams. And there are more and more CEOs that are stepping up and actually using storytelling to become, or appear more authentic. Are you observing that? And can you talk about storytelling and authenticity, please? 15:49 Yes, happy to do so. So storytelling can be personal. I think those are great stories to tell. And so in doing that, you bring your whole self, that whole authentic self to the table. Okay. I just made a post yesterday on LinkedIn where I was talking about my goal around losing weight. And I was like, walking around thinking I had been more successful than I had because I didn't really, I didn't really 16:19 I didn't write my goal down. I didn't write my stating weight down. And then all of a sudden I had the realization, I'm like, oh my gosh, I really actually went up by two pounds, not down by more. And so people commented on how refreshing it was. So those kinds of stories can, and then really to drive the point home, the post was really about goal setting and also how you can do a reset. 16:47 change your mindset to make sure that you do achieve your goals. Because we still have half of the year left. So I could do this. The importance of, of, you know, self belief. And so it was a story that poked a little bit of fun at myself, but really add a message. And so many people responded to that post just by talking about, oh, my gosh, it was refreshing, so honest, so authentic, they use those kinds of words. And so I think those 17:15 That's an example of how you can use a story to resonate with the population. Because again, almost like we were talking about entertainment, people grab onto stories. That's why we go to films. That's why we read books is because for that storyline, that plot. And so finding the hero and how you can get to employees that you could be the hero or you are my hero or you are part of the hero team. 17:44 in the story can, I think can be quite effective. Wow. What about the, the leading from creativity and the use of humor to actually promote creativity? Have you seen that? Do you use those techniques in your Vistage groups or elsewhere? 18:13 So, you know, one thing is humor, right? To enhance maybe leaders communication and the other is actually creativity to generate new business ideas or to think about a problem statement. What have you seen in your work? So. Yeah, I think there's great opportunity to be playful and to unleash creativity. And I know that this is something that you and I both believe strongly in. So I think there's, you know, there's a lot of things you can do. 18:42 Metaphors, I kind of alluded to this before. When you say one thing is like another, and so you can say, you know, I feel like our organization is like a twisted pretzel right now, and why is that true? Like, how is our organization like a twisted pretzel? And so that just encourages people to think more broadly about the concept. So I think metaphors are a good way. Even choosing a random word, 19:12 picking up a book, pointing at a word like, what does bananas have to do with the strategic issue that we're facing right now? And it just causes people to be like, oh, I gotta think about this differently. And it kind of breaks the ice. Yeah, exactly. Yes, and so it just gets people to say, I don't have to think about this in the same exact way. I'm also a big fan of field trips. And so one of my efforts when I was 19:40 uh, leading a training and development effort for an association was that we, um, took field trips around Chicago. Actually related in the hospitality industry. We went to various places unrelated to hospitality and we just said, what can you learn by just going on site to a chocolate place, Garrett's popcorn, a museum, what can you learn about the way that the. 20:09 those organizations greet people, the entering experience, the engaging experience, the exiting experience. What can you learn from that that would cause you to rethink how you do it in your own organization? So I think by taking field trips like when we were kids, I think that's another other way to foster creativity. I like mind mapping. I think that's a real 20:33 good way causing people to start to write things down visually or even using props or toys to try and encompass a concept. I think those can be very effective. I love, you know, I love the improv technique of yes and, which of course is useful in brainstorming, but also useful in saying we have a product design, and it's good. 21:01 And yes, and what can we add on or what else do we need to do? So I think those are some techniques that I think promote playfulness, but also cause us to open our minds to being more creative. These are very actionable. Have they been, is it necessary to, in your experience, have these in person? Can you do this virtually? And how do you get CEOs to allocate time on their busy schedule? 21:32 Well, it's, who doesn't, I mean, what CEO doesn't want innovation and creativity in their organism? So having said that, the question is, how do you really foster it? And you don't just say, okay, let's sit down and we're going to be creative, because that's not gonna work. We all have our own cognitive biases. We have our frameworks, our assumptions, our biases for how we think. 21:58 What you wanna do is break through some of those. And in order to do that, I think you really need to think intentionally about how to do it. And to me, some of the techniques I described are not wasting time at all, but rather an intentional way to allow people to be more creative. Excellent. And so. 22:24 Can you speak to it's actually not in the script, but what is a typical Vistage meeting and cohort look like in your world in Chicago? You co-lead with a male. You have two groups that you're leading now. So what is the typical format, duration, size of group? What are the things that you're finding? Are they Illinois based companies? Do you have any? 22:51 people participate virtually. This is your opportunity to share your craft as a leader of Vistage. Okay. Well, I guess I'll first talk about the group and then I can talk a little bit about what happens in the group. So the peer group is part of the Vistage experience. There's other things, research, virtual events, the one-on-one time with me as an executive coach. But in the group, typically 10 to 18, 15, 16 members 23:21 and everyone represents a different industry. They all own their own lanes. So no competitors, no vendors, customers in the room so that you can really have an open kimono and be vulnerable and being willing to say something out loud. So the kind of people I look for are clearly, you know, very successful already in their own right, but really humble enough to say, hey, what got me here may not be what... 23:50 I need the skills and the mindset and the way I need to lead in the future. We've been through a life-changing event in terms of the pandemic, and it's had a lot of repercussions. And so how do leaders function in a new environment? And so the way you may have done it in the past may not necessarily be the way that you need to do it in the future. So you wanna be, I want people who are already successful, they... 24:17 but they're still hungry. They're hungry for personal growth. They wanna grow their teams and they also wanna see revenue growth in their organizations. And then sort of putting on my University of Chicago hat. So that's sort of the psychographic. But I also think about my group as a portfolio. What I mean is I want certain voices in the room. So like right now I would love to have a person in the staffing or executive search. 24:47 industry because talent's such an issue. So I want to have that voice in the room. So my people, I look as almost like a portfolio. I also look to make sure that I have industry sectors that are either leading or lagging indicators in the economy because those leaders are going to see things first and they can bring that to the group and say, hey, here's what's already happening in 25:16 And so what's happening in my industry is gonna happen to you probably later. And so this portfolio approach, I think, enriches the group and allows everyone to really benefit from the diversity that is inherent in every Vistage group. Fantastic. What about, do you have mixed gender groups? I'm just wondering. Oh, absolutely. 25:46 Not it's people come and go in groups. It serves them well and then they need to move on. Right now I would definitely, I'm definitely looking to add some more female voices to the group. All right, well you heard it here on the founders. Exam clocks. Yes. Thank you. I'm you. 26:10 For this podcast, you provided a lot of articles that you've written over the years. That's a gift. You're a prolific and a polished writer. How do you find the time, Sue? And two, do you believe the ability to write is a skill that leaders must master? Such an interesting question. 26:40 leading does require strong communication skills. And obviously, I think there's many kinds of writing. Yeah, there's academic writing, which I've done published in journals, not necessarily very persuasive, not always persuasive writing. And then there's, you know, writing to to communicate. And so I think that 27:05 I guess I would say, you know, you can be a skilled writer, like a speechwriter, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be a skillful communicator. And I think leaders need a little bit of both. I mean, it's the kind of businesses and leaders that we work with are typically not hiring speechwriters. And so I do think it's an important skill to have if you're a small or medium sized business owner. 27:36 CEO of a huge, you know, fortune 500 company, of course, you can have speech writers write your thing, right, right stuff. And that's a that's a specific skill. So I would say, for our audience, what good or bad, you have to be skilled at writing, but also communicating those words to people. And writing in a way that is going to be persuasive and communicative. And perhaps playful. 28:04 right using humor, which is the topic of today's podcast. You know, when we I was preparing this, you know, I've been pursuing you for quite a while now. Thank you for joining. I did come across in other forums, a book that is accompanied by an assessment test called it's called humor series business. And to 28:31 professors at Stanford's Graduate School of Business have developed a course online to actually discover your type, right? And humorseriously.com. Have you had any experience with this? I thought it took off actually right in the pandemic. And just curious, because we are on the topic of humor and creativity. So, 28:58 what do I love? I love growing and learning and being a life-long learner. And so honestly, Brenda, I had never seen their work or heard about it. So I did watch their YouTube, which I found fascinating. I'm sure you'll include it in the show notes. And it's interesting, not, I think Stanford has done a really interesting job as a business and as a B-school or as a school, I guess I would say, as a university continuing to evolve. 29:24 So actually when I saw that they had this course in their business school, I wasn't surprised. And I actually have followed Stanford for a while because of their D school, their design school. Interesting. And so design thinking is not necessarily only related to the creative arts, but you know, you think about firms like, you know, who started with this concept like IDEO, but you know, this design thinking definitely has some 29:53 some good roots in creativity, innovation, breaking through borders, not thinking about constraints as true constraints and boundaries. And so to me, I wasn't surprised to see that these two were from Stanford. And it was a great listen. Thank you. I too, I was surprised to hear about it and two great schools, University of Chicago and Stanford with great alumni. So... 30:20 I do like to give my guest opportunity to share how you may be contacted. What's the easiest way and this will be in the show notes. Okay, well, I respond to my emails. I also respond to phone calls and voicemails. I love the younger generation that never listen to their voicemails. I actually do. So you can find me via phone at 847-404-7325. 30:47 Email always works and my email is su.tinish, my last at, and then here's the nice long after the at, VistageChair, like a piece of furniture, VistageChair.com. Then I am often on LinkedIn, and so people can DM me on LinkedIn and follow me. They can sign up and subscribe to my newsletter, make a difference. Yeah. Happy to respond any way that people want to. 31:15 Reach out to me, text, phone, email, or DM. Fantastic. So I'd like to bring us back to the founder sandbox and kind of the three cornerstones that I work with founders on and that's around resilience, purpose-driven enterprise and sustainable growth. And by bringing each of my guests back to, hey, what's the meaning of each of these terms? I'm absolutely fascinated that each one of my guests has a different. 31:42 you know, concept and it's so rich to listen. So what does resilience mean to you and your many years as practitioner with CEOs and small to medium sized companies? I'd say the first thing is really having a good balance between positivity and realizing that I have to grow and change and accept feedback. That maybe everything is not. 32:11 So I think especially for entrepreneurs and startups, I mean, you have such great belief in your concept. And so you do have to stick with it and stay positive, but there is that fine balance between accepting feedback and realism. And so I think resilience is balancing those two things appropriately. The second thing, the second characteristic I'd like to call out today is just really... 32:40 facing up to uncertainty. In other words, not being an ostrich and putting my head in the sand. Being resilient to me says, I'm willing to squarely look uncertainty in the face and I may not have all the data that I need. I may not be fully clear on what's the right direction, but resiliency is making that decision, taking responsibility, moving forward. 33:06 and accepting the consequences and then dealing with it all over again. Those are the two things that I think are most important to me personally about resiliency. Thank you. What about purpose-driven enterprise? Harkening back to my PhD where I did something on sustainability. Did you? Yes. So to me, purpose-driven enterprises really mean that you're gonna... 33:34 you will focus on value creation beyond simply profit. And the second quality is that there's really a strong integration in your ecosystem of all your stakeholders, not just shareholders, but that everyone is aligned and integrated and that your strategy is focused on an integrated purpose that serve all stakeholders, customers. 34:02 employees, your vendors, everyone in that ecosystem. And that's it. So you actually were a profit in your own land. Because your PhD, if you wrote on sustainability, I don't know how many years ago, it's just come back full circle, right? Yeah. It's got to be on every CEO's agenda. A triple bottom line. That's right. 34:27 And you heard it here, sustainable growth. So I kind of interchange sustainable with scalable. Again, we work with companies that are growing pretty rapidly. What is the meaning to you for sustainability? So first off, I think there's a difference between running an organization, leading an organization that's growing and leading an organization that's scalable. And so you desire both things, 34:56 you have to build in scale to make sure that you could manage your growth. So that's an element of sustainable growth. And as I alluded to earlier, I do think that this focus on the triple bottom line is really important. And even if you as a leader are not bought into it, think about the kinds of employees that you're hiring and the customers that you're serving as you get younger and younger. 35:24 this triple bottom line is so much more important to them. And so sustainable growth, in my opinion, can only be really fed by that focus on a triple bottom line. Wow. You heard it here. Thank you. Well, I have one last question. Did you have fun in the sandbox today, Sue? Oh, I did. It was fun to dig. It was fun to dig back into the past and think about the future. Yes. So delightful. So thank you so much for inviting me. 35:53 Thank you. The tools and techniques that you provided and just our conversation as well as what will be found in the show notes are invaluable. So thank you for offering these resources to my listeners. To my listeners, if you like this episode with Sue Tenesh, sign up for the monthly release of The Founder's Sandbox. It's available on all major podcast platforms. 36:20 where you're going to learn how to build with strong governance, a resilient, scalable, and purpose-driven company to make profits for good. Signing off. Thank you for being part of the Founders Sandbox.        

I had a great chat with Sue Choi about her work and her new book. Sue Choi is a somatic movement teacher and bodyworker with over 2 decades of experience creating body solutions for clients. Her goal has always been making enduring and sustainable changes for people in their bodies that they can carry into their daily lives. Driven to understand how mental and emotional connections show up in the body, she has a particular interest in how the deep currents of trauma distort a body. Her professional trainings include yoga therapy at the Krishnamacharya Mandiram, Continuum Movement with Emilie Conrad, Rolf Movement with Hubert Godard, neurosensory training in the Masgutova Neurosensorimotor Reflex Integration Method™, manual therapies in craniosacral, visceral manipulation, myofascial release. Perceptual trainings include the Tomatis Method™ sound therapy and natural vision. The work of psychiatrists, neuroscientists, and academics as they apply to the sensory system have also informed how she works with the body in movement. Enjoy the show. Contact Sue Choi Website: coherentbody.com email: info@coherentbody.com Instagram: @coherent_body If you want more, sign up for my newsletter at: www.drsamberne.com. If you have any questions, submit them to hello@drsamberne.com or you can now text me! Text ‘Join' to 1-844-932-1291 to join the community and ask your questions!   SUMMARY KEYWORDS book, people, vision, sue, somatic, body, balance, movement, head, hearing, preserving, feel, wrote, context, posture, brain, system, outcomes, read, parents   Hello, everyone, it's Dr. Sam, I'd like to welcome you to my EyeClarity podcast. This is a show that offers cutting edge information on how to improve your vision and overall wellness through holistic methods. I so appreciate you spending part of your day with me. If you have questions, you can send them to hello@drsamberne.com.   Hey, everybody, its Dr. Sam. And I'd like to welcome you to my EyeClarity podcast today. So we have a special guest. She's an author, she's a somatic educator, she's a friend from LA, her name is Sue Choi. And she's written a new book, which I just finished. And it's called when things stick, untangling your body from old patterns. And I am so excited about the contents of this book. And I just add, I have Sue on So Sue, welcome to the program. And can you give us a background on where you've come from and who you are?   00:46 Thank you, Sam. So happy to be here. I have I'm a somatic movement therapist, and educator, I've been doing this work for over 20 years, a whole body of work that ranges from somatic movement to hands on body work that I do for private one on one clients in person. So I it's been a fun journey to bring all these things together. And it was a big kind of effort to put the book together to distill things down. But I'm glad it's out there.   01:26 Well, you know, when I read the book, you know, what, what jumped out at me is how you have put all these different disciplines together. And so how did you develop this system?   01:41 You know, it was, it was kind of piece by piece, mostly, it was focused on how to improve outcomes for clients. So if there was something that I could kind of see that just wasn't fitting in place, I would research it, I did a lot of different types of trainings that may be kind of unusual, but I, one of the books that really turned things around for me was Dr. John Radies book on the fourth theatres of the brain and attention, and he, he's a psychiatrist, and he wrote about the sensory system, and the importance of it. And it really spoke to me, because I was already doing the modest work. I had been exposed to Bates work, back in the early days when I first studied yoga therapy, and was training. So I learned about that in India, and I said, Oh, that's just yoga for vision. And so the, as every, the threads of these things came together,

Hallo bei Fünfzig über Fünfzig. Ich bin Stephanie Hielscher, 45 Jahre alt und mir fehlen die Vorbilder für die bald kommende Dekade meines Lebens. Ich sehe in der Öffentlichkeit nicht besonders viele Frauen, die ein paar Jahre älter sind als ich. Doch natürlich gibt es sie, die Frauen zwischen 50 und 60. Ich möchte hier einen Ort schaffen, an dem sie zusammenkommen. Einen Ort, an dem Lebenserfahrung und Lebensgeschichten zu finden sind. Einen Ort, an dem offen über Höhen und Tiefen und über die Herausforderungen und vor allem die Chancen des Älterwerdens gesprochen wird. Einen Ort, aus dem wir alle etwas mitnehmen können für das eigene Leben. Ich habe Gäste aus ganz verschiedenen Bereichen eingeladen. Ich spreche mit Moderatorinnen und Schauspielerinnen, mit Autorinnen und Unternehmerinnen, mit Frauen aus Medizin, Wirtschaft und Politik. Sie alle gehen ihren ganz eigenen Weg und von ihnen allen können wir lernen. Ich war in Hamburg, um die Unternehmerin Sue Giers zu treffen und mit ihr über ihre Themen in den 50ern zu sprechen. Sue mag ihr Alter gern, weil sie sich endlich bei sich fühlt, die Rushhour ihres Lebens vorbei ist, die Kinder groß sind, sie ihre schwere Trennung verarbeitet hat und sie ein erfolgreiches neues Unternehmen gegründet hat. Sue ist voll in ihrer Kraft. Aber hört selbst!

Are you feeling under-exposed and ill-informed?  That may be because the much-vaunted NSW strata data Hub doesn't tell anyone who doesn't already know stuff very much about your apartment blocks at all. We take a look at the information available on the Hub to non-residents (not much) and residents (not much more) and what's in the “coming soon” section (ditto). Which prompts the question – if having strata information on the Hub is a good idea, why isn't there more of it.  What's so sensitive about some of the info we aren't getting? Shouldn't there be an option to provide greater detail, if the strata scheme wants to? Sometimes in life, less is more – but, usually, less is just less. Also this week we dig down into the Building and Design Practitioners Act (whoo-hoo!) to explore why simple renovation jobs are suddenly costing two or three times the original asking price. And we ask why you have to be an expert data miner, digging through layer after layer of building laws, to discover the genesis of the word “exempt” beyond the tail-chasing, tautological, circular meanings you first encounter. And for those of you who are not in NSW, we are spreading our wings and bringing in a strata expert from interstate. Also, we take a moment to wonder how many ways our artificial intelligence transcription service can get the words “Flat Chat Wrap” completely wrong. All that and more in this week's podcast. Enjoy! TRANSCRIPT IN FULL Jimmy  00:00 Well after last week's marathon flood chat wrap [I left this in deliberately – JT], we're going to go for a slightly shorter version this week, partly because you're heading off to the UK. Sue  00:10 Yes, that's right. Yes, I leave tomorrow. Jimmy  00:13 I was just telling somebody about the transcription service we use for these podcasts, Otter AI, which is really good. Except it's completely incapable of getting the words Flat Chat Wrap. It gives us, flat check rip,  flat pack rope. But by the time we have tidied it all up, of course it appears as it should. Sue  00:44 Yeah, fabulous Rafa, what would we do without her? (Well, this, is the answer. She's still on a well-earned break so the transcript could make a lot less sense this week). Jimmy  00:48 Indeed. Now today, we're going to talk about what is on the New South Wales strata hub information website thing, and what isn't? We're going to talk about problems with the design and building practitioners act. And we're going to briefly mention a new correspondent coming on to the Flat Chat website. He's from Queensland, which is really exciting. Sue  01:12 Fantastic. Jimmy  01:13 All right, well, we'd better get on with it. I'm Jimmy Thomson, I write the flight check (sic) column for the Australian Financial Review. Sue  01:20 And I'm Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain. Jimmy  01:23 And this is the flat chat wrap. [MUSIC] Jimmy Sue, you suggested that I should have called us the flight route check and see what Otter did with it. Sue  01:48 Anyway, maybe it's your accent, maybe that's what the AI can't understand. Jimmy  01:52 They gotta get used to it. And there must be other Scottish people, other Scottish Australians using Otter. But it is really good. Okay, the data hub, the big information portal for strata owners and residents in New South Wales came in with a big fanfare. And not a little controversy about what it's got on it, but mostly about what it doesn't have on it. So Sue, what would a person who is not an owner in a strata find if they went looking for information on the strata hub? Sue  02:26 Yep, let's see the number of lots in a Strata community and the date the strata scheme was registered. So maybe so they'd be able to know whether it was a new building or whether it was on board or whether it was out of warranty.  And a map showing where the building is. And coming soon,

Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest MovementLet Me Run This By You: RejectionInterview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company,  Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.2 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of2 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?0 (34s):You2 (35s):Part of the building.1 (36s):Okay,2 (37s):Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.1 (41s):I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.2 (45s):That is true. Good morning.1 (48s):Good. Margie,2 (50s):Your makeup looks amazing.1 (53s):Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?2 (59s):Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,1 (1m 10s):The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.2 (1m 15s):Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.2 (1m 58s):So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.1 (2m 0s):Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.1 (2m 40s):She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash2 (3m 23s):Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it1 (3m 44s):Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop2 (4m 6s):Back. Yeah, dude.1 (4m 7s):So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.1 (4m 48s):In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social2 (5m 22s):Media. What1 (5m 23s):She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So2 (5m 50s):Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.2 (6m 40s):If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.1 (6m 57s):Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.1 (7m 43s):And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,2 (8m 0s):Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,1 (8m 14s):The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,2 (8m 45s):Oh,1 (8m 46s):There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.1 (9m 32s):Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.2 (10m 9s):Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.2 (10m 50s):Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So1 (11m 8s):I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.2 (11m 45s):Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.2 (12m 43s):They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.1 (12m 46s):It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,2 (13m 8s):Right? Yes.1 (13m 9s):And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.2 (13m 16s):And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.2 (14m 10s):And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.1 (14m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.2 (14m 48s):Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.1 (15m 22s):Yes. Yeah.2 (15m 23s):I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not1 (15m 58s):Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make2 (16m 38s):Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.2 (17m 23s):So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign1 (17m 48s):Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.2 (17m 57s):Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We1 (18m 1s):Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.2 (18m 9s):Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.2 (18m 51s):That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.1 (19m 13s):Hey,2 (19m 14s):Let run this by1 (19m 15s):You today is about rejection.2 (19m 25s):I love it.1 (19m 26s):I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?1 (20m 10s):And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM2 (20m 18s):Yeah.1 (20m 19s):Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.2 (20m 35s):Oh my god.1 (20m 37s):Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.2 (21m 0s):I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.1 (21m 8s):Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What2 (21m 32s):The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?1 (21m 36s):They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.1 (22m 21s):It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy2 (22m 45s):Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.2 (23m 24s):So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.2 (24m 6s):And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.2 (24m 50s):Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.2 (25m 31s):And that just feels shitty.1 (25m 33s):It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.1 (26m 16s):So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,2 (26m 26s):And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.1 (27m 13s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,0 (27m 47s):I'm2 (27m 47s):Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just4 (28m 7s):Yeah, yeah,2 (28m 8s):Because Yeah, go ahead.4 (28m 11s):No, most recently just two, but yes.2 (28m 13s):Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.2 (28m 55s):It is not a joke. Thank4 (28m 56s):You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut2 (28m 58s):Out. Yeah, thank you.1 (29m 0s):So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.4 (29m 34s):Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're2 (29m 40s):Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.4 (29m 41s):I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.2 (29m 54s):Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was4 (30m 2s):It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.2 (30m 24s):Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?4 (30m 53s):Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.1 (31m 14s):So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.4 (31m 26s):Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.4 (32m 9s):Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but2 (32m 11s):Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.4 (32m 27s):So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.2 (32m 51s):Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I4 (32m 56s):Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.2 (32m 60s):Like,4 (33m 1s):And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh2 (33m 12s):My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's4 (33m 23s):Harder when you get older.2 (33m 25s):No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?4 (33m 34s):She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm2 (34m 3s):Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,4 (34m 7s):Right.2 (34m 7s):Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.4 (34m 10s):I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?4 (34m 53s):Yeah,1 (34m 54s):Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?4 (35m 9s):Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.2 (35m 30s):Oh my, my God.4 (35m 32s):It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So1 (36m 5s):Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?4 (36m 33s):Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh2 (37m 12s):Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.4 (37m 20s):Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.1 (37m 28s):13. I, No, 13. Really young, really4 (37m 30s):Young.1 (37m 31s):13. Do that on your own.4 (37m 32s):So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute2 (37m 55s):Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?4 (38m 7s):So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,2 (38m 48s):My god, all the pressure. And4 (38m 49s):Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model2 (38m 55s):A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.4 (39m 10s):I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But2 (39m 30s):I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.2 (40m 13s):Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,4 (40m 16s):So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.4 (40m 56s):Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.4 (41m 36s):So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA1 (41m 56s):Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.4 (42m 17s):So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.4 (43m 3s):So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.2 (43m 14s):Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.4 (43m 18s):Oh boy.2 (43m 19s):I bet was great. Whatever it was.4 (43m 22s):The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been1 (44m 2s):Saying4 (44m 2s):I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.2 (44m 6s):Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know4 (44m 10s):It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.2 (44m 14s):Oh yeah, that's1 (44m 15s):Exactly what I did. Terrible.2 (44m 20s):Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,4 (44m 46s):So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,2 (45m 4s):Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like4 (45m 8s):At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,1 (45m 39s):This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.2 (45m 48s):No. Was1 (45m 49s):It nerve wracking?4 (45m 51s):Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.2 (46m 9s):So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?4 (46m 20s):No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,2 (46m 39s):So1 (46m 40s):I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?4 (47m 5s):You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.4 (47m 45s):Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,2 (47m 55s):I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.4 (47m 57s):Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.2 (48m 23s):Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.4 (48m 57s):So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.4 (49m 38s):I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.4 (50m 25s):And wait2 (50m 26s):A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.4 (50m 41s):17, Yeah.2 (50m 42s):You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?4 (50m 57s):I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.4 (51m 36s):And2 (51m 37s):That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so4 (51m 55s):I really wanted to go2 (51m 56s):To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?4 (52m 2s):Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was2 (52m 31s):All these like, what a power move.4 (52m 35s):I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.4 (53m 18s):I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my2 (53m 31s):God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.4 (54m 1s):I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's1 (54m 23s):So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.4 (55m 3s):No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.2 (55m 6s):Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?4 (55m 20s):Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.4 (56m 11s):And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is2 (56m 38s):Like4 (56m 39s):Directing and design, like great fallback. But2 (56m 43s):Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.2 (57m 23s):And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.4 (57m 45s):Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.4 (58m 29s):So yeah. So cool.1 (58m 31s):Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?4 (59m 3s):You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,2 (59m 27s):Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.4 (1h 0m 2s):Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?1 (1h 0m 15s):I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.4 (1h 0m 55s):That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.2 (1h 1m 28s):Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.2 (1h 2m 10s):So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.4 (1h 2m 46s):No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.4 (1h 3m 30s):And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.2 (1h 3m 45s):And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?2 (1h 4m 25s):We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.4 (1h 4m 34s):I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.4 (1h 5m 24s):I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,2 (1h 5m 51s):No, it puts more work. It's more work,4 (1h 5m 54s):More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean

Jan Stankiewicz  0:06  Hello and welcome to Thriving on the Prairie,  a podcast exploring issues concerning families and communities that inspires North Dakota movers, shakers and community difference makers to engage in lifelong learning. I'm Jan Stankiewicz, Community Health and Nutrition Specialist with NDSU Extension. And I'm so excited to have a few guests on today. Farmers markets are an integral part of local food systems and economies across the state. With the short growing season here in North Dakota, people are always on the lookout for those canopies and truck beds set up in parks, or Greenspaces, or parking lots or on the side of the road. Today, I'm chatting with market managers of two farmers markets, Sue Balcom, with Bismarck Farmer's Market and Heidi Ziegenmeyer and Jessica Fish with Spirit Lake Mobile Farmer's Market. So let's just go ahead and jump right in. We'll start with Sue. So thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm so glad you're here today. Sue Balcom  1:04  I'm delighted to be asked to be with you, Jan.Jan Stankiewicz  1:09  This is great. So I can just I'm just so excited for our conversation. So let's start with a little bit of background for you. And you in regards to the Bismarck Farmer's Market. Where does all this start? I know you've been involved in local foods and farmer's markets for quite some time. But just tell us a little bit about how it started for you. Sue Balcom  1:31  Boy, you're not gonna like this, because my history goes back a long ways. You know, sometimes you forget how old you are, and how long you've been on the planet. But when I started in local foods, officially, I didn't even know it was called local foods. And it was about 2008 when I got a job at the Ag Department as the local foods marketing specialist. But the only qualification I think I have for any of the work that I've been doing since then, including the farmer's markets, is that I have lived a local economy. I grew up in a local economy. If it wouldn't have been for gardening, when we lived in Fredonia, we would have probably had a very limited diet. But my mom was an avid gardener. My memories start way back then. And so when I found out that people were didn't know where a potato came from, or didn't know how to garden, or can I was like, What do you mean, like this is craziness. And so getting started in the local foods movement in North Dakota was really exciting. And I remember Roger Johnson, who was the ag commissioner at the time, he said to me, you don't really think Sue is going to get these people to start canning do you. And look at what's happened since then it's really taken off. And so about, oh, I'd say maybe seven years ago, I did research for a book on the German Russian food culture, because I really wanted to know how people gardened, canned, preserved, butchered, stored meat without electricity. Like, how do you bake bread with cow pies? You know, like, how do you regulate an oven? Where do you keep meat in the wintertime? Like, these are questions I really wanted to know. And in the course of all of this research, now, everybody wants to know the answers to these questions. So one of the parts of that whole scenario with the books that I did was the everlasting yeast, which is actually a sourdough starter, and all the ladies had one in their root cellar. So I thought, Oh, this is so fascinating to me, I think I'm gonna start baking bread. And so I started my culture back then. And then I ran into somebody named Diane Schmidt, who had been doing farmer's markets and Mandan. I was one of her customers for 40 years. And she encouraged me to join the farmer's market. And I did. And of course, the rest is history because I've been a street vendor for many years as an artist and this fell right into my, the way I wanted to live my life and how I wanted to make money. And so when our markets kind of like grew and split, I became the market manager for Bismarck Farmer's Market and let me tell you, that's been a real learning experience.I can imagine I really like how you talk about like the different worlds you know, you live in a world or were raised in a world where local foods wasn't even a term because it was just your lived experience. And then being exposed to or having insight into other people's worlds where it's a completely different experience. So I just really like that you can, you know, local foods allows us to kind of step in and out of that or, or see different ways of of living and experiences that's really interesting.Jan Stankiewicz  5:00  So Bismarck Farmer's Market that is, of course, in Bismarck. Tell us a little bit about your role as a market manager because I think maybe, maybe some people don't know all of the work that it takes to get markets set up on Market Day. Sue Balcom  5:18  Heck, I'd probably wouldn't have taken this job had I known how much work it was. Alright. First of all, you really, we're really strict. I hate using that word, but we're really committed to being a farmer's market. So one of the things that we require is that the people are actually growing their own vegetables, we don't do any resale. So in order to ensure that we can maintain the integrity of the market, we set ourselves up as a nonprofit corporation each, and that requires paperwork, and lots of paperwork, lots of paperwork, and annual paperwork to it didn't just stop there.We file every year with the Secretary of State's office under our name, our official name, Bismarck Farmer's Market, and, of course, we are insured because nowadays, you can't do anything without insurance. So as a market, we have insured all of our vendors while they're on the property selling. Finding a place to have a market is sometimes a challenge. You know, we we have such a following now that the parking issue is, is almost overwhelming, like all of the people that are coming to visit the market. But you know, on a daily basis, I get phone calls, inquiring when the market is. I have to do the website updates. I do a Facebook page, we do Facebook posts all the time, not just on Saturdays, our market runs four days a week. So we're doing promos all the time. And then of course, people want to join the market. So who do they call? The market manager? And anytime anybody even has questions about where to park they call the market manager. Like, leave me alone. I'm trying to market my own stuff. Okay?Jan Stankiewicz  7:07  Yeah. Sue Balcom  7:09  Well, there's there's bookkeeping, you know, you have to keep track of people, you have to keep track of their membership dollars, you have to be responsible to them. So you have meetings and you report to them what you've done with their dollars and what benefit they're getting. But farmers are independent thinkers. So sometimes I think even the vendors aren't cognizant of what a market manager is doing for them behind the scenes. Jan Stankiewicz  7:32  Mm hmm. Right. And that is that something to also kind of make note of is that farmer's markets operate very differently. So Bismarck Farmer's Market, sounds like you guys are very set up and like you said, committed, that's a good word. Committed to operating and having integrity around your products and your vendors. But there is differences across markets too. Other markets are more open or more forgiving or loose on their, like rules or regulations or anything. So just for, you know, shoppers or customers, it's just interesting to see the differences in how markets are operating. Sue Balcom  8:13   I kind of have a theory about that. And that is that I think sometimes people don't take us seriously. You know, I think sometimes they think that this is people that garden and they got excess produce and they're just bringing it to market to get rid of the excess. And that's not the case with our market. We vet our vendors to make sure that they are semi, if not fully, serious about becoming a business, I know that our market has been going, the vendors in our market range from age 12 to 97. And they file their taxes under farm taxes. You know, it's it's a business for us. It's not just a sideline and so part of keeping that integrity is ensuring that we have people that are really serious about this because I would certainly like to see people be able to make a living doing this and not just have to work off the farm like I do for health insurance or whatever you know.Jan Stankiewicz  9:15  Right? It's not just a hobby kind of a thing. Just in somebody's backyard and off a whim somebody wants to go to the farmer's market on Saturday right? It's a well thought out well-oiled machine kind of a thing. Sue Balcom  9:29  I wouldn't go so far as it sounds well-oiled, but we can still get the grease.Well and again, you know from like those external perceptions like from the outside, it looks like you guys are a well-oiled machine. So you're clearly doing something right.So right and people don't understand truly how hard our vendors work. We have people that are there four days a week. Now in addition to planting that garden, you know, they're getting up at the crack of dawn and they're picking vegetables, they're washing and bagging, and then they go to the markets for four, six or eight hours. And then the next day, they're back to picking again, because we do markets Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays. It's really hard work. And we have aging vendors, I'm sorry to say I'm in that category also. But we need to, we really need to start that mentoring, we really need to start mentoring new vendors. And that is, my goal is to give generously. And you know, when somebody comes by and asks us how we do things, or where to buy bags, or where's the best deal on a canopy, we are more than willing to help them along. So that we have more vendors, and we've had, I've had a lot of fun this year with a couple of young ladies that have joined our market. And, you know, it's a little slow starting, but like I said, when you have kids and things, it's it's really a lot of work. It is yeah. And I like creating that culture of generosity and thinking of the next generation or succession, you know, those kinds of things, where I think sometimes, in the business world in, economics, it's kind of you think of a competitive nature, where, you can only have one type of vendor, or the more vendors, the smaller market you're going to have, but it really isn't like a truly competitive thing. It's like, it's a little bit more synergistic than I think that people might might realize. Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point, too. So thinking about the market this year. So Bismarck Farmer's Market this year, it's looked a little bit different than in years past for you guys. Specifically, becoming SNAP authorized, which is a huge deal. Oh, my God, had I known on that I might have not gone through with it.I know. Don't make me regret inviting you here. Sue I'm just kidding. Just totally kidding. Oh, my gosh. So let's talk about SNAP and Double Up Dakota. All right, in you know, really on that point there. It it seems overwhelming at first, and it was a little frustrating, because there it's a federal program. And so there were some hoops jumping that we had to do. But you know what, it's gotten so much easier. And I understand it now. And so I'm working with the individual vendors to help them try and understand a little better the importance of what we're doing here.Right, but how do you explain that to the vendors, it's counterintuitive to not write your market because they bring people and then those people bring people and then. Okay, so here's a prime example, when I did art shows, I did very high end hand woven garments like 400 to $800 jackets. And when I was the only person there I was the only person they could compare my product to. So then they couldn't make up their minds as easily as if there were five weavers there, they could go around, speak to each one of them and say, you know, this is the person I really liked their soul or I really like, you know, their artist statement or whatever. And it's easier than for the next time you're there. More people will come because they're like, oh, there's like five weavers there. I really love hand woven clothes, I think I'm gonna go see what I can find. So when you have one person doing this and one person doing that, there's just not as much comparison going on. And you know, if they come in, they don't like something that one week, they're not going to come back unless they have some choices. SYeah, and that's a really good so let's maybe I'm going to take it one step back. And so just let people know what SNAP is so SNAP is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It is a USDA program that individuals or families qualify for based on income and other factors. And it helps it's it provides food assistance, so dollars to help food budgets throughout the month. And, you know, just as you can go to a grocery store and use your SNAP or EBT card is what they call it. You can, a farmer's market can become an authorized retailer to accept SNAP. And like Sue mentioned there are hoops and there are forms and there are all kinds of things to get farmer's markets equipped to accept SNAP as a form of payment just as like accepting a credit or debit card. NDSU Extension had put together this project to help farmers markets become a authorized to accept SNAP. And the primary goal was, again to just increase the number of places where SNAP participants can can buy food. And the emphasis on farmer's markets was to increase access to local foods. So some grocery stores don't carry very many or no local foods at all. And so SNAP participants can now choose if they if they wish to shop at farmer's market that becomes SNAP authorized. So Sue worked with the Bismarck Farmer's Market and is now a SNAP authorized. Ta-da!  And I would have never even thought of it if it hadn't been for Extension's assistance. Just even being there to ask questions was huge, because I had I don't know, had a little trouble there at the start getting authorized. But now that everything falls in place, this falls totally in line with building your farmer's markets. Because if I remember correctly, this program began a long time ago, many years ago, as a way to support local farm businesses. Now a part of this was to purchase food from farmers. Because if if all the farmers disappear, everyone's going to have to dig up their backyard, because it's going to be kind of hard to find fruits and vegetables in particular. Jan Stankiewicz  16:22  Right. Sue Balcom  16:23  Just think of how much more you can how much more business this will generate in a farmer's market. Plus, we're educating people about how to use local food, where they're getting it's healthier, you know, they're getting a really fresh product if they're coming to the market. And we've had not a great run. But we've had more people than I thought coming out with their EBT cards. And I'm like, so excited. I'm like, thank you guys for coming. This is so awesome. And then they're really delighted because of the Double Up program that was like a fringe benefit for all of us. Yeah, yeah. So the Double Up program is, you know, an additional source of funding, so they call it a Nutrition Incentive Program. So for every SNAP dollar that is used to purchase any SNAP eligible food at the market, the those SNAP participants and folks who use their EBT card are then given $1 for dollar match on that SNAP purchase up to $10. And those Double Up Dakota, those incentives can be used to purchase additional fruits and vegetables. So again, tying back into the access to local foods, the access to healthy, affordable foods. Those incentives really go a long way. And I really do like Sue, when you were talking about going back to why farmers and farmer's markets should or are interested in these kinds of things. Because those SNAP dollars, there is a lot of funding that goes towards those programs. And if farmer's markets can tap into even a fraction of those dollars, it truly is like an economic stimulus, like it will dramatically impact  those dollars or it can dramatically impact those dollars coming into those farmer's markets and directly to the farmers.Right. And I think these people, I at least the customers that we've had kind of enjoy the alternative to going to a grocery store. You know, I've been just surprised like, Okay, this, on Saturday, we had a young lady there, and her mother and her son, and they came over and she bought, we use tokens at our market. So she came and used her EBT card for $20 tokens to buy product. And then I said but you're gonna get these $10 and double up and she goes, You mean I get to spend $30 at the market? And I said yes. And so her son, who was probably about four or five years old, was able to select a pumpkin from one of the vendors with those double up tokens. And he was so proud of that he carried it out of the market himself and everything. And so all of this ties into the social aspect of farmers market, which I think dinner, cooking, canning all this stuff is kind of like a community thing also. Yeah, it really is those there are it's personal connections. It's relational. It's more relational than it is transactional. You know, you think about buying food or paying for things or using coupons. That sounds very transactional. But it really is relational and like the social connectedness piece. Those things really do shine through. Right? And people say all the time, you know, like, I don't know why you work so hard or even why you're standing out here and it's only 30 degrees. Well, every time I get up on a Saturday morning at 5am, and cut flowers in the dark or something, you know, wash pumpkins in the dark. And I'm like, why am I doing this, I'm exhausted. I'm loading up my trailer. Driving to the market thinking I really would like to be home with a cup of coffee. And then that first customer shows up and I'm like, I love this. I love this interaction with people. I love that people love my stuff. Like when they come back and tell me why pickles tastes just like their grandmother's. It just like, yes! I've accomplished something really important in the world today. Jan Stankiewicz  20:50  I know, right? What is it about our grandma's pickles? I have the same feeling. I hope my grandma's watching from heaven and is proud of me. Sue Balcom  20:59  Oh, I know. I know. It really is those stories and connections, those things. It just It does. It makes it worth it even even in the dark and the mud. And in the work.I think it's gonna rain one of these days on us because as you know, we're moving into winter here. But you know, we hang out until the end of October at our market. And we do do four days a week. And when we're when you know, they come in eight and they're out of produce, they leave. And for you people who are late risers, you know, you got to get with the program. You got to get there early. You want to be able to have any kind of selection, that's for dang sure. Yeah, so where, let's say you four days a week, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday. Where is Bismarck Farmer's Market located Sue? Oh, we were so absolutely fortunate to have been invited to the new Ace Hardware north, which is on the other side of 43rd Avenue. And for someone who lives in rural Morton County, I was shocked to see what's been going on for development in North Bismarck, it is in credible. Jan Stankiewicz  22:12  It is nuts. Sue Balcom  22:12  We were trying to get our old customers to recognize that we moved a little bit further north and some of them whined a little bit about it. It has been the best thing ever. We have a whole new clientele because there's a whole bunch of young families up there. So we're seeing new people, we're on a visible corner so that people can see the canopies and the trailers when we're there. And it's ended up being just a totally awesome thing. Because moving any kind of market is a scary thing. It is yeah. But I in my deep down in my heart, I keep thinking how much fun it would be to go back home to my little town of 400 people and have a farmer's market there, you know, talk about a community kind of thing. Yeah, right. I know. It definitely is a culture. It's certainly is and it's so neat to see. And you know, like we talked about a little bit earlier, the differences in that. So it would be interesting to see, you know, a farmer's market culture in Bismarck, and even that Bismarck Farmer's Market isn't the only farmer's market in Bismarck and you guys are still thriving and the other markets are doing really well. And so it's just a it is a culture. And it's really neat to see how that's kind of ebbing or flowing or shifting. Here's a shift I'd like to see. Sorry to interrupt, but I don't know, one of the things that we're always talking about is wouldn't it be super great if the Bismarck City Commission got together with Burleigh county commissioners and created a permanent structure, you know, canopy type thing for all the farmer's markets. And we could do this year round, like whoever had product to sell could come and set up in a little stall it could be heated or not heated or semi heated. You know, you could do some solar energy type, cover, you know, like I live the dream about making this really legitimate because as I mentioned before, I think sometimes people are like, Yeah, this isn't really a business. But it is a business. And it is a lifestyle for us that I think more people would really like to be able to do and survive. Yeah, you do have big vision Sue, that's for that's for sure. But right like how to create something in your community that can sustain things, you know, so it's creating those supports are those systems that can bolster it that can make it you know, a little bit easier, especially in North Dakota was such wicked weather sometimes and the growing season challenges. So if there's ways to make it a little bit more convenient or a little bit easier, or goes longer into the seasons. That's yeah, those are exciting things. Right? And then I think the word would spread and more and more people, including the SNAP people who sometimes I think, probably don't think about shopping at farmer's markets. Well, I shouldn't say that about that. Because I think there's people all over the city that don't think about shopping at farmer's markets. It's very European to go and buy your loaf of bread and your fresh vegetables weekly, instead of annually, and then store the stuff, you know, with preservatives in your cupboard. I'm sorry, my bad not to install preservatives. But...Yeah, no, it is, again, it's a culture it's a it's a way of life. Definitely, definitely differences, that's for sure. But going back to that is kind of figuring out a way to, to kind of bend people towards those shifts. So maybe, maybe I'm a family who goes on a grocery shopping trip once a month, and I get all my stuff at one of the larger chain stores. But if there's ways to bend towards or to you know, like, because shifting behavior or patterns is hard, and it takes a lot of effort. And it takes a long time. So it's those kinds of things where, you know, the more exposure we have to folks shopping at a farmer's market, or even coming to the farmers market and seeing what's available, seeing, you know, talking with the people who grow the food, who make the food, who bake the things. I think that those are the really important pieces where each little exposure each little instance or circumstance can add up to, you know, longer term behaviors and patterns and those kinds of things. And you want that you want to cultivate, sorry to use that word again, the people who are actually doing this. So I think there were statistics out there when I was working either at farms or the Ag department about if people were just to spend five or $10 a week. Yeah, market five or $10 other grocery budget at a market every week, you would be able to support X number of small businesses and you know, in light of the pandemic, you know, people have all of a sudden panicked a little bit about the empty store shelves and things like that. So I hate to say this, but it took a pandemic to get people to even start thinking about local economies. And I'm not talking just about farmer's markets here but local economies have to do with processing too like meatpacking plants and wash and pack vegetable places which I think we have none are small processors like the Amy Gordon place in Grand Forks you know, there's there's a lot of peripheral businesses that came around the small diversified farms of the past that are no longer here, you know, farmers and like there was a creamery in the town that I grew up in, you know, I mean, there was a meatpacking plant and a creamery and all of these places that played into this local economy, which also equated into security. Like food security for the people that lived in the area, which is critical issue nowadays, because yeah, I hate to say this, but nothing breaks my heart more than hearing the statistics on the people, the young kids in North Dakota that go hungry every day. Right? I know it is there's so many layers in there. And it's it is heartbreaking because North Dakota being an agriculturally based stateWe got it going on man, we could take over the industry, if enough of us put our heads together, we have the knowledge and the land and water. Right. And that's the thing too, is it's not like to, to kind of bust bust the myth of farmer's markets being like this elitist kind of environment or climate for folks shopping for food. It's not and it's certainly more of lots of us doing a little bit, not very few of us doing all of it, you know, so it is those those $5 purchases, those $10 purchases, it's not that. Very few of us ever buy all of our grocery needs from a farmer's market. But if lots of us do, you know, again with those $5 transactions, those $10 transactions, those turn into those big scale changes that we, that we're waiting for. Right? And I'll just keep plugging along with my little voice here, which isn't that little. Yes, well, Sue this has just been a tremendous pleasure. I do appreciate your time. Is there anything else that I didn't cover that you want to be sure to let folks know about?I think we pretty much ran the gamut from back in the day to what my future outcast, or my future outlook is, or farmer's market. So just give us a try, you know, like, don't be timid to ask questions. That's, that's what we do. You know, we're in the business of educating people. And I really want to thank you again, because this SNAP thing I think can only grow for us. And I would have never done it without your help, Jan. So I really, really, really appreciate the support. And it's been a real pleasure talking with you today. Awesome. That's so great to hear. Sue, thank you so much. Thank you. All right. And now we have Heidi and Jessica joining us from Cankdeska Cikana Community College. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you guys are here today. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  31:13  Thanks. We're really excited too.Sue Balcom  31:15  Awesome, so why don't you guys just take a little bit and tell us like who you are and what you do at Cankdeska. And with the mobile farmer's market? Heidi Ziegenmeyer  31:25  Yeah. Okay. So, as you said, Jan, I'm Heidi Ziegenmeyer, and I am the land grant director at Cankdeska Cikana Community College. And Jessica is my assistant land grant director and general right hand woman, Lady about town. And, and we do things for the Spirit Like community. So we are part of Cankdeska as a 1994. land grant college. So just like NDSU is an 1862 Land Grant and they do things with outreach and Extension. And education. That's the sort of the three pillars right of Land Grant and agricultural education and things we do that as well but for the tribal community. So Spirit Lake is where we are located in Fort Totten centered in Fort Totten, North Dakota. And we do things like a community garden, we till gardens for people at their homes on the reservations, we give out seeds and seedlings, we do gardening, education workshops, or even just one on one like phone calls and messages. We have student interns who are apprentices who learn how to how to garden, how to operate a tractor how to run a greenhouse and take care of all the plants on campus and grow, grow tomatoes from seed, for example. What is and is not a weed, oh my gosh, that's an aphid in the greenhouse get it, kind of thing. So, so that we do all sorts of stuff like that. And, boy, we try to do all sorts of events throughout the year, little nutrition workshops, or even like crafting workshops, seasonal things, which can be good mental health breaks, you know, and just wanted to kind of get together and breathe a sigh of relief that you know, we take a break for a moment.Oh, like the corn maze and pumpkin patch or the or the community garden. Those were ideas of from community members that you know, things that they wanted to see like like outdoor activities for the fall or for the summer depending you know, for the community garden aspect. Because they're there were very rural, you know, North Dakota's rural. So having activities, that things that people can do, that are healthy and fun and educational, like our corn maze last year had Dakota cultural and informational history information on signs throughout the maze. So as you went through the maze, you could find the signs and learn things about Dakota culture. And it was in the shape of a buffalo or Tatanka, which is a culturally significant symbol. So all sorts of fun stuff we try to do to serve the community and the farmer's market to circle back to what we're talking about is one of those things that it ties in well with the community garden and the garden tilling program, it provides a venue for people to to sell their food or value added products and thingsto sort of supplement their incomes. Spirit Lake is a you know, low income area. And it's also a food desert. So access to local and fresh and healthy food is very limited. There's very few access points on the reservation or if people have to go over to Devil's Lake, transportation can be an issue and so on. So providing a market space for, you know, local people like very local on the reservation people who can, where they can sell their, their fresh food, or their jams and whatnot. Keeping that, that that income in the community. And then also giving that that fresh access, fresh food access to to other people who might want it without having to travel too far is the whole idea. And that's why we're mobile too. Because I attended a meeting. Oh, gosh, it was COVID. Right. And the pandemic makes time just like not not even time anymore. But so I don't remember when, but, but we had a meeting and the the tribal chairman at the time or chairperson talked about services that are provided to people on the reservation and how it's really important to to not just, you know, how's that service in a building somewhere and expect people on the reservation to come to you, because transportation is an issue. They might not know where you are. If you're not from here, like I'm I'm not from here. But I do love it here. And I appreciate it here. But I'm not from here. So people don't necessarily know me and automatically know where I'm located. So to bring the market out to them to bring it, the idea is to have it at the local rec centers. There's one in each district on the reservation wellness centers or rec centers, brings it closer to people. Some of them are quite walkable from some of the areas and they could just walk up and buy food. So that's the idea behind having it be mobile and rotating through the districts, it does provide some complications in that it's, you know, having a market in a different place each week can be confusing, but we try to market very well and have it clear on the signs. And so on. So this year, though, we had it housed at the college as a central location because of well, COVID. And you know, everybody's so busy. I think everybody just understands, everybody's so busy. And trying to coordinate getting it out at the RECs where I don't even I'm not sure if the RECs are even open right now. Normally, we were trying to collaborate with a health clinic, because they do a mobile foot clinic at the same time. So we were going to do the farmer's market the same day and location and times as the mobile foot clinics. Because they have like diabetes walk ins. And again, that fresh food aspect is very good to tie into that. But they weren't doing a mobile clinics because of COVID. So it started was like well, let's just do to the colleges here. But in future. That is the plan. Yeah, and I've gone on and on now, Jan, so please ask me another question. Yeah, no, that's all really great information. Heidi, it's just so important to know. Because oftentimes, in I want to say like in the farmer's market world in North Dakota, but I don't think it's, you know, necessarily pertains only to farmer's market worlds. But it's so it is hard to get that information, like we're in it. And we think that everybody knows about it, or knows how to get the information about it. So having all of that background information, all of that the details just readily available, is really nice. And I think, you know, lots of times we we feel like we're being repetitive or saying too much or something. But you run into people all the time. And it's like, I never knew that. And we were thinking, oh my gosh, how like how do we need to how can we get this better? How can we get this message out to more people or so don't apologize for all the information. It's very interesting, I know. We can only hope that we can be that hip or something.Hey, great. And just related to if that is something that people want to know about, especially on reservations, getting information out to people, word of mouth is, of course huge. But partnering with people is a big deal. Because there'll be long standing like special Diabetes Program, or food distribution or this there are these long standing kind of institutions that work with people on the reservation that you want to reach. And so partnering with them, including them if they want to have like a booth at your market. And then they'll market for you to write. And then like our reservation has a radio station run by the tribe and so you can record they let you for free you just record a little PSA and and they'll play it for you as many times you know, as they are able on the radio. And so that was another way that we got our information out in the past so just um, yeah, keep your eyes out for partners and different ways that people get their information. I think it's a little different sometimes on a reservation or in really rural areas. That it's not necessarily like, TikTok I mean, young people sure tick tock, you know, I'm sure. But like, I'm sorry, I'm not even on I'm not on TikTok. I'm not marketing Farmer's Market on TikTok. But maybe in the future. You know.Jessica Fish  39:34  young people sure TikTok, you know, I'm sure. But like, I'm sorry, I'm not even on I'm not on TikTok. I'm not marketing Farmer's Market on TikTok. But maybe in the future. You know, I'm not I know.Jan Stankiewicz  39:43  We can only hope that we can be that hip or someHeidi Ziegenmeyer  39:46  Yes, I wish I were that hip. I'm in my 30s I am not hip anymore. But like, I don't know I was playing these days ratchet that didn't even that's old, right? But that's an old word. I don't know. I don't know what the new word is for that anymore. But you know what's cool? I say cool. And that's probably not the word anymore. But again, off topic, but fun to talk about. Um, yeah, but so you got to think about your audience back to that thinking about your audience and, and how they get their information. And here we have learned word of mouth, getting some key people in the community who, who just know a lot of people, and are willing to be kinda like a champion for you is big. We had with farms last year FARRMS, that's one of our partners, was definitely bloom Hagen. And I'm them, and they're great. And they provided us with an intern for the farmer's market last year, and this year as well, are funded one that we hired locally. And our intern last year was a local person, and she was just fantastic. She knows everybody. And so she was like, sharing it on her Facebook and her posts on her flag on her personal Facebook got more likes than ours on the college page. And I was like, dang it. All right, well, you know, go you Thank you. I'm glad I know you. Um, so yeah, just find those champions look for radio stations, or whatever it is that people, you know, get their information from. Sue Balcom  41:18  And, yeah. And so speaking of getting your message out, and like tapping into maybe some new audiences, this year was a little bit new for you guys. Becoming SNAP authorized. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  41:31  Yes. Sue Balcom  41:32  So for folks who are maybe just figuring out what we're kind of chatting about farmer's markets, at Cankdeska, but then also SNAPs, so the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, SNAP, some people referred to it, or formerly known as food stamps. It's a USDA program that offers food assistance benefits to those folks who qualify -individuals and families with limited resources. And it helps like, again, stretch food budgets throughout each month, so they can purchase food. To be up for a SNAP participant, to be able to use their card, their dollars, those places where you can buy food have to become SNAP authorized. And that is a whole process. It's, you know, a federal application, all those big scary words. But Heidi and Jessica had ventured that trail with us this year. Yes. And it was a process. It's a process, but it's also it is, it's doable, we got there. But so getting that message out to folks, SNAP participants who couldn't have used their SNAP dollars at your market, like last year or any previous year, because you weren't SNAP authorized. So if you could share a little bit about, like, what that process looks like, and then moving towards, you know, getting the word out to SNAP participants and how those how those transactions or how those transactions kind of went for you during market season. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  43:15  While the process itself, I guess I just have a noise to represent it and it was (displeasure sound) That would be my feelings about the SNAP authorization process.Jan Stankiewicz  43:29  (laughs)Heidi Ziegenmeyer  43:31  No, it's fine. But it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's what we tell ourselves. It's fine. Everything's fine. Your your the dog sitting with the coffee cup with the flames around you. It's fine. It's fine. No anyways, but as she was super, super helpful with the training in January, you were fantastic. And then you had your your helper people I won't call them in minions, but like, you know, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm your helper, other NDSU staff who were would make site visits or check in on us like we had Gabe Nelson with Benson County or I guess that's an FNP program. Yes. Good. I'm getting it sort of. Right. Right. She would check in on us and help us as well and answer questions or, you know, point me to where I could find the information that you had already so thoughtfully provided and I just had forgotten. So I'm justIt was all a learning process. And that's the thing too, is learning learning along the way learning together. Yes. So my interaction with the federal government. So yes, the noise does not represent my interaction with NDSU it is representative of the my feelings regarding the federal government for this process. Um, because you know, what could be quick and easy is no, you fill in one extra box on the form which it says you have to fill in social security number. For example,. And then oh, that triggers, you have to also submit all this other information that it doesn't originally ask for on the form. But now you have to do that. And so then they kick your application back, and then back and forth, and back and forth. And then oh, and then they want to know what, what products you sell. And you can't just say fruits and vegetables, you have to say like carrots, potatoes, onions. So they'll ask you these follow up questions sometimes. And it seemed like different people, sometimes you would, because we were in this cohort group, right of different markets. And we were asked these questions, but not everybody was. So it was be prepared, I think, for the process, the emphasis on process the long time frame. But if they respond to you be aware that you only have I believe, 30 days, or they will kick you back. And you have to start all over. So they can take your time, but you cannot. is I think where what we learned from this as well. And I'm not. I used to work for government in an aspect and I can understand their side, too. But oh, you know, frustrating. Jan Stankiewicz  46:05  Yeah, I know. Sue Balcom  46:06  And it seems like you know, you know, in our minds, like, all we want to do is accept SNAP as payment for folks to be able to use their food dollars. And then yes, we run into the obstacles. The people work, the emails, the phone calls the wait the wait time? Yeah, it is. It is, it doesn't seem. There's lots of things in life today that are so easy. They make it so easy to do certain things. And then other things, it's just not that easy. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  46:39  Yes. I think to myself, Well, gee, if I were designing this form, I would have done this instead, not have that or put this direction. But then, you know, there's probably reasons why they didn't I mean, the form of would probably be ended up like 40 pages long, if you know, you could put every little direction on there that I would have.Sue Balcom  46:58  And, and maybe some of these conversations can lead into some more informed decision making because accepting SNAP at farmer's markets across the country, it has kind of like, been a steady uptick. But specifically here in North Dakota, it's been a little bit of a slower motion forward. And so, you know, maybe some of these rumblings, some of these conversations can then, you know, move things in the direction to which we want to see. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  47:28  Yeah, and I should sort of backtrack and say like, just because it was a process doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doesn't mean it's not a good thing. It doesn't mean you can't do it, or that, you know, you'll automatically get denied. I think most if not all of us in there, you know, your cohort kind of made it we all got authorized, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, it's doable. It's not impossible. It just was frustrating at times, because, you know, we all have busy lives and have other things going on. And so then to go back and list out, oh, not just vegetables, but potatoes, carrots, onions,  I mean, you know, I just, I got cranky, but Jan Stankiewicz  48:06  For sure. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:07  But everyone should still do it. Accepting SNAP is important. Because access to food is important. Healthy food, local food, food that puts, you know, dollars in pockets of your neighbor. And then you get their potatoes and they're delicious. Because they they're so fresh. And then the Double Up Box, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, if not right now. Jan Stankiewicz  48:34  Oh, let's do it right now.Yeah. Thanks for the Segway Heidi. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:39  Yeah. So do you want to talk on the Double Ups? Or you want me to? Jan Stankiewicz  48:44  Why don't you take it - you talk. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  48:45  Take it alright, I'm taking it. Um, so Double Ups... Double Up was like, if you bought something with your SNAP dollars, or SNAP card, then you would get up to $10. In Double Up. Like, we used hope we had tokens every day in tokens, right? Double Up tokens that you would give out that then you could turn around and it was like free money. Buy more veggies. And so we actually I think, Jessica you Jessica was my like I said my main lady. And she would help people figure out how to like even in one sitting right, maximize their SNAP dollars. Jessica Fish  49:23  Yeah, so what I because a lot of people around here didn't, hadn't heard of the SNAP Double Up and weren't really familiar. And there are there are some pretty specific rules for the Double Up Bucks. You can only use them on minimally prepared fresh fruits and vegetables. So where you can use your SNAP benefits on things like fresh salsa or bread, you cannot use the double up on that. So people would come up with their order and say I've got $50 worth well, okay, spending $40 Anyway, you're going to get what you needed to get your $10 token So from there, what we can do is actually say, okay, so you're going to get $40 on your card. And then with that, you get these $10 tokens, and that will cover this $10 of potatoes or pumpkins or whatever. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  50:15  So we were like, Yeah, spend those immediately. Yeah, let's do this. We're gonna, because it also with us, we, we only did a couple markets this fall because of various issues. And so we we wanted to, you know, not expect people to hang on to them necessarily until next year or something. So spending, you know, let's maximize that. Let's do it. Now. Let's get you as much fruits and vegetables and fresh things as possible. And I think that that was awesome for them. They really liked it. Right? Jessica Fish  50:45  Yeah, it was a fantastic, and it was a great way to explain how it worked, especially for those people that had never done it before. Like, oh, okay, I see this now. That makes sense. Okay, I get it. Sue Balcom  50:57  Right. And that's so cool that Jessica, that you were there to be able to, like provide that connection with people. Because lots of times that confusion, or you can have lots of apprehension around. I'm not sure how this works. I'm not sure what questions to ask. So having that person right there, I'm sure is what contributed to a lot of your success. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  51:18  Yes, Jessica, we had Jessica, she was like our SNAP lady, you know, transaction person. And we had a whole table that was she would do the credit cards or the SNAP. And then the individual vendors would handle their cash or whatever. But we had Jessica with her table with like, different flyers and information. And like one person, I was telling him about the Double Ups. And he was like, Oh, can I spend them anywhere? And I was like, no, not anywhere. Here is, like we had a flyer with like, all the markets on the back like, these are the different markets if you were to like go to busy market. Right? And you know, you could spend it there. But but not like just on the grocery store? No. So use them now would be our advice. And we worked to help them do that. And it was it was very popular. We sold a lot of how much did we end up selling in SNAP sales and things. Jessica Fish  52:12  SNAP sales, we actually had between the two markets, almost $130 of sales just for SNAPHeidi Ziegenmeyer  52:19  Awesome. Jessica Fish  52:21  We also we did have quite a few people who held on to their tokens, but we had about $30 worth of Double Up, come from that. And then cash and credit card, we probably had just for the booths that we were running another $300. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  52:38  Yeah. And then we just we had a few, you know, just a small market. But I think a small market kind of popping up in the community with like a week or so notice really, we got we got some good turnout. And I'm really excited about the the SNAP sales, we also went to the we advertise in the blue building, right? The tribal building, yes, and where a lot of people will come in for like tribal business. And then also over at the social services, where they actually do the SNAP applications.You put flyers and stuff there. So people would know. And I told the staff there to like send them to our market, like we're accepting SNAP now. So they could kind of talk it up to them as well and really access those people who, who can use their SNAP dollars. Sue Balcom  53:26  So yeah, I know, I think that's so important. And I think, you know, from a vendor or producer perspective, it's really nice, because you open it up to folks who like, maybe weren't even considering shopping at the market before because like, if I'm using my EBT card, I know, I've got a certain dollar amount. I'm typically, you know, knowing where I spend those dollars, moving from, you know, buying my stuff at a grocery store, or let's say in Devil's Lake, but then I'm going to try to do it at a farmer's market. And you know, having that open, welcoming, warm, you know, reception at a farmer's market, and then being able to feel like you belong or you're part of the community in that way. And then also knowing that those dollars, like you said, Heidi would benefit those farmers that you're that you're buying from and so like, you know, it's a little bit of an empowerment approach and having people feel connected and belonging, I think, you know, when we talk about SNAP dollars, and you know, those kinds of things, it makes it feel a little bit transactional. But farmer's markets are so cool, because it's very relational. And, you know, incorporating the social piece to it. So it's kind of works around some of those things. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  54:46  You talked about warm and welcoming. And I was just thinking about, you know, students are walking past the market into the college and like, hey, farmer's market! They're like, Oh, who's that crazy lady, but you know, they kind of came over, I think.Jan Stankiewicz  55:02  Anyway, the ones that didn't run in. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:04  Exactly, exactly. If I didn't scare them too much. Um, they, you know, my talk of tomatoes. Let's go. Anyway, um, it was it's good time so, you know, yeah, for sure. It's not you know you don't get that at Walmart. You don't get you don't get some crazy lady yelling tomatoes at you. Um, who doesn't want that?Sue Balcom  55:33  They're just like visions happening right now. Like, what what would that be like? Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:38  Yeah, exactly like don't I want that potatoes? I don't I don't yell at people. I hope everybody out there in the podcast world is laughing as well. Jan Stankiewicz  55:51  I know. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  55:52  They're like this lady's not butJessica Fish  55:55  That's the draw to the farmers market. Yes, the person. You too can come and see that person. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  56:01  Yes. I'll be famous. They'll want my autograph. crazy lady right here. Oh, right. Okay, yeah. Another another set real? Yes. But that's fine. That's I mean, we're having Yeah, yeah. Sue Balcom  56:13  So I wanted to chat a little bit about the, the mobile piece of your guys's market. So most farmer's markets or the side of the road in a parking lot, like with a canopy over top and your setup in a park or something? You guys are mobile, and you mentioned, you know, visiting specific districts across the reservation across the tribal nation.Like how does that work? And what so you mentioned the transportation to like the why of a mobile farmer's market. And that makes a lot of sense. But talk a little bit about how you guys function that way. And like, you know, just anything about that, because it's, it's pretty novel, actually. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  56:52  Thanks we are so fancy. Um, so the mobile part, like I said, it's really important to bring opportunities out to the people. Especially in areas where poverty is an issue, transportation can really be an issue. A lot of people, gosh, you know, share vehicles don't have their own vehicle, try to get rides from others, and so on. So being able to bring the food out to them and a place where maybe they can just walk up to it or somewhere they were going anyway, like if it's to the mobile foot clinic, or were to take their kids to go play at the playground at the Rec, or something is really good. And the whys and how's I mean, so that's the why the how is really due, thankfully to our I call them our small army of interns. But we have, you know, different grants that help support us and they support the interns which get agricultural education, and all the various hands on things they do, but also in farmer's market and learning how to you know, how to run a market. They learn also about SNAP dollars and Double Ups and how to price things in a market and like if they were  ever be vendors themselves, and our interns have some of them, have turned from just interns into well, interns and community gardeners. So they had that opportunity. And I think, I'm not sure we had some produce donated from some of our, from our community gardeners. So that might have been come, some of it might have come from our interns. But anyway, so they get that kind of building knowledge, you know, that builds on itself. And being part of that market as well. So we have, but we have canopies, and tables that we provide, again, that's grant funded, and we're very thankful for that. USDA NIFA. But I'm trying to give a shout out to them. But they, we have an Extension grant through them. And part of that funds, the farmer's markets. And so we have we provide the canopies and the tables and chairs, there's no charge to be a part of our market. Again, it's just that because we're in a low income area, we're trying to help people get into doing the kind of small business thing like a farmer's market. And so adding costs, like you know, you have to provide your own canopy and tables and chairs and also pay us a fee and blah, blah, I mean, it can be a barrier. Jessica Fish  59:27  For sure. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  59:28  So we wanted to get rid of those barriers. So we provide that we we call and recruit vendors beforehand. So we have an idea of how many. We haul the stuff out there. Our interns will set it up and we have a hotspot or whatever you call it right hotspot for the credit card, you know, SNAP machine thing for us to be mobile. And it's not the easiest thing to do for sure, but I think important, worthwhile. And We've enjoyed it so far. And I think bringing it out to different areas too. We get people who, who maybe don't necessarily drive by Fort Totten, but they do drive by the rack and St. Michael, or something. And so then they'll go, Oh, hey, what's that I'm gonna go stop. And we have a big banner, you know, like, farmer's market here. Now, what we've tried to put out, you don't a conspicuous area to help people, you know, see what's going on and stop by so.Sue Balcom  1:00:26  Yeah, that's very cool. I really do. The mobile aspect of it is very intriguing for me. So it's kind of, you know, being from Bismarck, and we just set up and we're stuck with just stop there. You start and stop there. But yeah, I think that's so interesting. And it's also, you know, I'm sure it would be interesting, you know, being able to, like, create relationship with, you know, more community members, because clearly, you're doing it to reach more folks. So yeah, that's very cool. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:00:56  I do have one, thank you. And I do have one, like, asterisk on the mobile aspects, should somebody else be considering that for themselves. And, you know, hopefully, no feds are listening to this. Or if they are, they will plug your ears right now. And this won't matter to them. Anyway, I did put it on my application. So you can't say it's not on there. But you have to have a specific physical location for your market, when you are applying for the SNAP thing. SNAP up step authorization, we specific ID. So when you're applying for SNAP authorization, you have to put a specific location. And then there's a note section where I said, but we are a mobile market, we also operate at these locations. So be aware of that if you're considering being mobile, that you are supposed to have one specific location that you're authorized for, but I didn't put that on my application. Nobody asked me any questions about it. I'm saying we're good.Jan Stankiewicz  1:01:53  I know. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:01:55  They're so bad. But that's one little little, you know, asterisk caveat. Something to just think about. If you feel comfortable just putting a note and saying you're good. Yeah.Sue Balcom  1:02:07  Right. Yeah. And but that's, you know, even for other farmer's markets, like sometimes they have different, like set locations. Maybe they're mobile. Yeah, but they have like to like they're in one place on Saturday in one place on Wednesday or something. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:20  Sure. Sue Balcom  1:02:20  So right, but having that, you know, disclosed and then allowing, you know, the people who make decisions to figure all that out. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:28  Yeah, exactly. I'm just letting them figure that out. But disclosing is important. So be sure to disclose all of your nuances. Sue Balcom  1:02:37  Yeah, yeah. So knowing the last couple of years, you know, we can talk at length about all of the challenges over the last couple of years. So let's, let's shift it a little bit to maybe next year or the year after. So what do you guys see, for the Spirit Lake Mobile Farmer's Market next year in the following years?Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:02:59  Well, the future is exciting, and daunting and scary and exciting again. I mostly exciting, we'll go with that. So ah, for the future, we want to expand our community garden even more. We are talking about the college leasing additional land for a larger space. And then of course, that takes grant money to help with the setup and everything because we don't have we're not generating millions on or now that it's taken millions but you know, we're not generating a lot of dollars on our own. but it's good stuff for the community. So it'll be a process but we hope to expand the community garden Oh, there's that word process again. So not just for the government, but for us to probably you know, yes, we all we all participate in that more tilling you know, garden tilling program participants,  more seed and seedling providing and so on. So that we expand our participants in those programs that then you know is the base for our vendors for our farmer's market to to build a bigger, more vendors. We had a few, not large by any means but it's a it's a process.Sue Balcom  1:04:17  And if you could all see Heidi right now she's building with her arms and her hands she's building it up so she's willing it Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:04:24  Yes, I would have said wildly gesticulating but you building building it is much better. Yes. I'm so so that building it up is good. We also have plans to renovate our physical location here at the college to turn a classroom into a commercial kitchen space. That is approved again USDA. So that that can be both a teaching space but also a place that people can borrow kind of rent but I don't even know if we'll even charge you know, really again low income and helping and supporting people To make those value added products that they can sell at the farmers market. Jan Stankiewicz  1:05:06  That is so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:05:08  I'm excited. Sue Balcom  1:05:09  I mean, that is honestly like one that is a big gap in a lot of communities is to have that space for folks to infer, you know, a commercial kitchen space allows individual producers to make products that can be sold outside of the home and into businesses and restaurants. And yes, so it really is like a like a business economical thing. So that's so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:05:35  Yeah, we're, like, I have goosebumps right now just thinking about it was talking about it. Oh, goosebumps. Yes. Um, so that's very exciting. And then, Jessica. Jessica Fish  1:05:43  So I also have a pet project with our farmer's market, because one of the things that the college does right now is in the spring, we provide seeds and seedlings, for a small fee, and seeds and seedlings are SNAP eligible products, yes, which means that we can be promoting that to the people in our community to say, look, you can spend $1 of your SNAP money to buy this tomato plant, and that tomato plant is going to produce you, I think it's like 15 pounds of tomatoes, on average. So for $1 and a little work, you're getting 15 pounds of tomatoes. And also because the Double Up program is continuing next year, when you buy $10 worth of vegetables. You're banking $10 to later buy vegetables when you need something you didn't grow. Sue Balcom  1:06:34  Yeah, I really liked how you're putting that together. Jessica, that's so exciting. And I really like, you know, having those conversations with folks because, like, it just makes so much sense. And the the, like you mentioned, Heidi, lots of barriers and a lot of this work. And so when we can work proactively, like you guys do such an amazing job to remove some of those barriers make it a little bit more convenient for folks who are starting out or just figuring out how to maybe like add some income or create a business or expand something. So that's Oh, that's so exciting. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:07:11  Oh, thanks. Yeah. And you know, it's buy this tomato for tomato plant. I mean for $1 with your SNAP dollars. Oh, and come to our gardening workshop. Oh, and then our food preservation workshops in the fall. And, you know, we it's a whole full service thing we got going. Jan Stankiewicz  1:07:26  Right, right. It really takes you through the whole spectrum. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:07:31  Yeah, yeah. It's a thing. We're, we're happy. We're proud of it. We work hard. Right? Jan Stankiewicz  1:07:37  You guys do,  it is a thing. Yeah. You guys work so hard. Oh, thank you. Yes. Yeah. So hard. Well, I know Heartsong.Sue Balcom  1:07:48  Well, we can wrap things up a little bit. I do sincerely appreciate your guys's time. I think that it's so great to hear stories to share. I really hope it's far reaching. Is there anything else you want to leave us with anything else that we didn't cover that you want to make sure that everybody hears?Jessica Fish  1:08:07  Oh, I do have one thing. Shout out to NDSU. Because one of the things that Gabe provided us with was these great, just little cards about how to preserve vegetables. And so we had those all set out on a table. And I had several people going through going, you can freeze grapes? You can can potatoes? Like they had no idea you could save these things for later. And that was such a good draw for them to then go okay, well, if I could freeze these, I can buy a pound. And I'll just freeze them for later. So that was huge, too. Jan Stankiewicz  1:08:43  Yeah. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:08:44  NDSU is awesome. Food nutrition program in the house. Well, yeah.Jan Stankiewicz  1:08:49  All right. Yes, we can definitely end on that note that. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Thank you. Heidi Ziegenmeyer  1:08:56  Thank you for inviting us. Sue Balcom  1:08:57  Yeah, yes. Excellent. Thanks for listening to Thriving on the Prairie. To subscribe to the podcast and access a full transcript and resource links from this episode, visit www.ag ndsu.edu/thrivingontheprairieYou can find more resources for families and communities on Extension's website at www.ndsu.edu/extension. This has been a production of NDSU Extension - Extending knowledge. Changing livves. 

David has NEVER had a pedicure in his life... and since he just ran the Boston Marathon, his feet are a mess. So Sue and Kendra are going to take him (for the first time) to the spa and get his feet the luxurious treatment they deserve! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Don't like your lemons whole? Undercooked? So Sue(t) me! Bad bakes call for bad puns and from cauldron cheesecake to sloppy pudding, it wasn't our bakers finest hour. Who's going to wobble? Are YOU ready for their Jelly? It's another episode of Baking Bad!And if you want to watch this on video, head to our youtube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXFSeKcg9lKfauvXB818mPA/Baking Bad: The Bake Off Podcast is part of The Jerk Store.Follow us on:Facebook: http://facebook.com/thejerkstorecomedyInstagram: http://instagram.com/thejerksto.reTwitter: http://twitter.com/TheJerkSto_reTwitter: http://twitter.com/RossDrummondTwitter: http://twitter.com/HarryMonaghan

Forensic nursing.... Truly, so many questions. What nursing interventions are on your menu as a forensic nurse. How do you cope with the fact that you know these people you're caring for have participated in violent and sometimes reprehensible conduct that have likely ruined their victims lives? How do you even cope with the curiousity of it all? How disconcerting is it when your patient comes with an entourage of custodial officers? Is it.....scary????? Well, in the interests of nurses and midwives exploring what career transition options might be out there, this seemed like a no brainer to explore given it's so foreign. So Sue hit Tanya Mularczyk and Sandra Dewhirst up and asked them all the questions you wanted to know about Forensic Nursing

GUEST BIO: Dr. Sue Black is an award-winning Computer Scientist, Technology Evangelist and Digital Skills Expert.  She is a professor in the department of Computer Science at Durham University, a government advisor, thought leader, writer and public speaker. Sue was awarded an OBE for services to technology in the 2016 Queen’s New Year’s Honours list. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Dr. Sue Black. She has worked in the IT field for nearly 25 years, primarily in education-related roles. However, she has also been heavily involved in other projects and roles. For example, she is a UK Government advisor, a technology columnist for The Guardian, the founder of techmums. Up until 2011 she ran the campaign to save Bletchley Park. Sue is currently a Professor of Computer and Technology Evangelist for Durham University. In 2016, she was awarded an OBE for services to technology and, in 2017, won the Social Impact Abie Award. She is also a well-known tech conference speaker. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.03) – So Sue, can I ask you to expand on that brief intro and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Sue explains that she left school at 16 but did not go back into education until she was 26, when she took a maths course. From there, she became a full-time student. She left university with a PhD in software engineering. From there she became a full-time lecturer at senior, then principle, level. Fairly quickly, she became the head of department at the University of Westminster. In November 2018, she became the Professor of Computer Science and Technology Evangelist at Durham University, her dream job. Sue, mentions that she has” done a few things outside of that”, which is actually a bit of an understatement. She is and has been heavily involved with a wide range of tech projects and initiatives. (2.07) – What particularly excited you about working in the field of education? The fact that education changed Sue’s life so much has been a big inspiration for Sue. When she took her maths course she was a 26-year-old single mum. She had realized that if she went back to work she could not even earn enough to pay for childcare. This realization led her to go back into education. Plus, she has always had a curious mind and loved learning. She loves learning and really enjoys helping people to understand the world of technology. Sue finds it to be a wonderful thing. (3.28) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience, something that perhaps they should know? Twenty-one years ago Sue set up a network for women in technology. Chairing that group taught Sue the true value of connecting with other people. She knew it was important, but, over the years has seen just how effective it is. When you talk to people you like and who you share similar or connected interests with, a whole new world opens up. Of course, you talk to each other about what you are doing, discuss ideas and get feedback. But, something else also happens. Your work starts to become known. If you are networking with people within your company as well as outside the understanding of what you do and your true value increases. Getting a promotion becomes a lot easier. Plus, importantly, networking helps you to make good friends. (4.53) – Please, tell us about your worst career moment and what you learned from that experience. When Sue was doing her PhD, she hadn’t backed up things properly and ended up losing 3 months worth of work. Naturally, she was devastated. She was also too embarrassed to tell anyone. It took her close on a month to come to terms with what she had done and a further 2 months to catch up. The whole experience shook her and it was several more months before she was able to get properly up to speed. That was a harsh way to learn the importance of backing things up. Now that everything is in the cloud Sue says that you do not have to worry so much. You just have to remember to set up anything stand up like Word to save every 30 seconds or so. (6.39) – Phil asks Sue to share her greatest career moment. Winning the Social Impact Abie Award from the technical women’s community at Grace Hopper Celebration was Sue’s greatest moment. As a computer pioneer Grace Hopper is definitely someone to look up to, so it was a great honor to be chosen. Giving a speech to 17,000, mainly female, computer science graduates from across the world was an amazing experience. It gave Sue the chance to share a bit of her story, the struggles as well as the success. The sheer scale of the event and the fact that most of the attendees were women who were involved in tech was just amazing. (8.44) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? Sue really enjoys the way tech is becoming involved in absolutely everything we do. As a result, technology skills are going to become increasingly valuable. It frustrates her that more people do not consider an IT career. Technology careers are not just about sitting there coding all day. There are so many other roles to fill. There is a place for everyone within the technology sector. So, everyone should be doing their best to learn as many tech skills as possible. There is already a skills shortage. This means that there are jobs available for anyone who is even a little bit tech savvy. Sue is also excited about the way in which tech connects everyone together. When she was working on the Bletchley Park project it was Twitter and social media that sparked the necessary interest to keep things on track and complete the project. Twitter enabled Sue to instantly find everyone who was interested in Bletchley Park and engage with them. Twitter is an incredible way to find like-minded people. (11.24) – What first attracted you to a career in IT? Sue says for her it was probably money. When she was deciding on which degree to take she had the choice of math or computer science. At the time, her priority was earning enough to support her and her three kids. So, taking computer science was the most sensible option. (11.54) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Sue said that was – “Go for promotion”. Apply any time you get a chance, after all what is the worst thing that can happen when you do so? (12.24) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Sue says that she has always regretted not becoming a stack developer. A role she could not consider doing now, because she feels that she no longer has the energy for it. But, if she were starting over again, as a younger person, that is what she would want to do. (12.44) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Sue wants to change the world with technology. Right now, her focus is helping people who have come from a disadvantaged background, as she did. That is why she has set up her social enterprise, techmums. Sue wants to empower people through technology. She is also interested in becoming a University Vice Chancellor. Fulfilling that personal ambition is something she is also working towards. (13.31) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? Sue says being able to chat with people and make friends has really helped her throughout her career. When she was doing her PhD her supervisor told her she had to network. At the time, that was the last thing Sue wanted to do. In fact, she was scared of doing it. But, she pushed herself to follow that advice. Now, she believes that is the thing that has made the biggest positive difference to her career. Talking to people, finding out what they do helps you to find common interests so that you can connect and collaborate. Networking has negative connotations, but, when done properly it should not have those. If you are genuinely interested in others and happy to share what you are doing getting to know people can only be a positive thing. (14.41) Phil says you make a good point about networking. Really, we need to find a different word for it to get away from the negativity surrounding it. Sue agrees. For her networking is primarily about friendship. She remembers sitting alone at conferences not knowing a soul. It took a lot for her to say Hi and talk to others about what they were up to. But, when she did good things happened. Some of those people have been her friends for two decades now. (15.25) – Phil asks Sue to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Sue’s advice is to do a job that you love. But, bear in mind that it can take a while to get to the point where you enjoy every aspect of your job. It has taken Sue many years to gradually work her way into her dream job. But, with perseverance it can be done. BEST MOMENTS: (3.17) SUE– "Seeing that kind of light bulb moment when someone actually gets something that you're talking about is just a wonderful thing." (9.12) SUE– "Technology skills are just going to become more and more valuable" (9.44) SUE– "Everyone should be doing their best to learn as many tech skills as possible" (10.29) SUE– "For finding likeminded people Twitter is just incredible" (13.57) SUE– "Over my 25-year career, the thing that's made the biggest difference is just going and chatting to people.” (15.25) SUE – “If you work doing something that you really enjoy doing, you're going to do well.” CONTACT SUE: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dr_Black @Dr_Black LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sueblack/ Website: https://sueblack.co.uk

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/Patty: Hey there Patty Dominguez, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast. We are in episode 15 with Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman. Two women that are moms at the time there were moms of teens and they were looking at sharing what was happening. Challenges of parenting teens and this passion project turned into something that has continued with yourteenmag.com. And I find them absolutely fascinating because of their insane amount of perseverance the way that they collaborate and they make it fun. Along the way. So these are two women that took the concept of a challenge and they turned it into a passion project. And it is truly an honor to collaborate with them as well. And so it is my great pleasure to introduce you today to Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman from yourteenmag.com.Patty: All right well thank you so much Susan and Stephanie for being on our show. You are the founders of your teenmag.com and it is a pleasure to have you on. So this is a three people podcast and Susan at the beginning was saying wait wait. Who's going to say what? And so we're just going to riff on this. People were just going to go with the flow and talk about how do you know when it's time to quit. And you're going to hear from two women who have been in business with yourteenmag.com for the past 12 years. How's that for tenacity. So thank you both for joining me today on Her Legacy Podcast.Susan: Thanks for having us.Patty: So I want to ask first and foremost typically I say hey let's get braggy. What's your superpower? But I'm speaking to an individual. But when you look at your Teen Mag what is your Teen Mag super power in your opinion?Susan: I would say it's just creating great content for Parents Day in and day out.Patty: Right. And you've been around for 12 years. What's been the feedback around. I mean certainly the longevity that you have to create something so sustainable. How do you know that what you have to offer is great and I'm being completely honest here how do you know that. Do you get a lot of rave reviews?Susan: Yeah we just actually got something today. And it was from a reader who said. Hi there. I don't think I've ever told you just how much enjoyed your teens through the years have made times that exhale.Because I found out I wasn't alone in this situation or simply got great advice. It's a wonderful publication. So we hear that all the time. And you know the best part about hearing it is that's what we set out to do.Patty: Yeah that's brilliant. And the fact is you provide community and support. And we know that when a business comes at it from a servant leadership part it just takes on a different position in people's mind. When you think about mindshare I always think about when somebody is building a brand like what's the mindshare that you capture.And I really see that with your teen mag. Just because I'm working on your project I see that there is just this level of comfort security for parents to feel that they're not alone. I think that's deeply deeply meaningful. Aside from of course that stellar content that you have so I really commend you for that because not a whole lot of people would have that level of attention to detail and care. So.Susan: Thank you. I think one of the things that we've tried to create is like a grownup playgroup for people and in our case it would be a virtual playgroup. But for many moms that was such a place to get information and to figure out. What was normal and what wasn't normal and you don't really have that anymore as your kids get older.So our goal was to create a space where you could come and you could say I have this problem and people could bolster you with their solutions or just compassion or just say me too. And. Then we have a number of spaces where that's really happening like our Facebook groups are great for that. Really supportive it's the village that we all look for.Patty: Exactly exactly that level of support. All right so take me back. Take us back all the way to the beginning. How did this start. How did yourteenmag.com start?Susan: Well since I was there first I'll start with that and then Steph can jump in. I have five kids. I went to law school. I stopped working after my third was born and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that decision and stay home with my kids. And when my kids when my oldest ones were getting near high school I really felt like I had to get out of their way. I had a lot of time on my hands but they did need. And I didn't want to go back to law.And so for years I had been saying to my husband. Why is there no parent's magazine for us as our kids get older? It's not a cumulative skill set. And I lost. And I just don't know if this behavior is normal or if I should be calling like an emergency room hospital to bring them all in. You know like you just don't know. And how do you find out. OK I don't know. But I also don't know where to go to find out without making turning everything into something extreme.And most of the things that we confront in adolescence fortunately aren't that extreme but we don't know it. So I just set out to feel the need of something I wanted and when I went and spoke to friends they wanted it to. I mean you know I had a gut that it was universal but you don't know you could be an opinion of one. And it wasn't the case every time I spoke to somebody they too were feeling alone and were looking for ways to kind of get validated or.You know as much as we don't want to hear that there's a crisis going on we'd rather know it than ignore it. So then from there we really just got a group of women Stephanie was one of them and then Stephanie and I soon after became partners. And that was the beginning of a love project really like a passion project.Patty: I think that's so brilliant. And the first part of that. Spoken like a true entrepreneur is that we really look for solutions to problems instead of just saying oh yeah that's a problem there. And so I'm assuming to sort of right around where 2006 or 2007.Susan: 2007 I think.Patty: Well the conversation started in 2007 and then the magazine was launched in 2007. OK. And then the other side of it is not only the fact that you identified that there was a need in the marketplace but you also validated it by checking in with other mothers checking in with your target audience if you will as you were developing the idea you were assessing. Yeah there is a need in the marketplace so you've looked at for the validation to say wow. Nobody's filling these needs. So now it's up to me to put something together and you rally.So I just want to give context to that because I think it's so important. I mean ideas are plentiful. People have ideas but it's the execution where most people fall short and they don't really understand how to take it through to break. And so for that reason I mean that was really great that you were able to assess not only there's an opportunity but here's what I to do about it am. So to that point. Talk to me about the beginning of me. Did you have experience with creating an online publication?Stephanie: We had no experience as you said she was a lawyer. I was a banker. We didn't know anything about publishing. Sue had this great idea we had met through a leadership course. I would say like every great relationship we were friends first before our work marriage and it was to this day we will say it with her credit that we really didn't understand the media business. We didn't even know it was called the media business to be honest. I think what we understood was that parents seemed desperate for the same information that we were desperate for. And. I guess we just kept going. Right.So we were getting some certainly some good feedback but also I think we were undeterred by this idea that OK we're you know we're helping people. It seems to resonate. Like let's just keep going. And so this idea of yeah having the skill set first and then then building the business. That's not how it happens. You know there's a saying in this leadership course you're on about building a bridge while you're walking on. Yeah that's pretty much our story. And I think. I was making notes as we're sitting here and I was just thinking about the even just the value of our partnership and being able to. Throw things back and forth at each other right and say likeOkay well when what about this or what about that or. OK well let's try this and I don't think we've ever been accused of. Waiting two longer. We're both. We will take action and we just continue to plow ahead and just watch media and while we do have the business the media experience were both smart women and I think we both have that. Mindset that we'll figure it out. We're both puzzlers. We love to win. We really love to win. And so that just propelled us forward was just you know just keep going. Keep going and keep solving keep going and keep solving.Patty: I love that. I love that. They know right before we got a call. I was like wait. Like let's go live. Because Susan said we're a 12 year start up and capturing that right. That yourteenmag.com is a 12 your start up. Tell me what that means. Tell us what that means to you.Susan: I want to say that just to respond to something Stephanie said we not only did Stephanie and I not know the industry but there wasn't one woman around the table. We were a group of women who did not know each other but someone knew someone who knew someone. And we sat around the table really working hard to get to the point of publishing our first print magazine. And no one around the table had any background so we were literally just passion.That's all we had passion and grit. But as it turned out that was a real advantage in an industry that was changing so rapidly which is why many people told us not to do it because why would you get into media when media is you know falling apart. But we had this distinct advantage of not knowing anything so the world was our oyster like when no one ever could say we've always done it this way because we didn't know we were doing so we know there was one issue.When we do this to this day but we get cover sponsor and someone who was also in the media industry said to us like where did you get that idea from. And we were like I don't know. We just you know we had some more real estate. And so we said well would you want to be on the cover. But that was hard for people who were born in the worlds of media because nobody did that for us. We didn't care we didn't know it was just a joke.Patty: I love that. I love it as an example. You made your own rules along the way and really not sticking to conventional wisdom of what. People think it should look like. And because of that there was an opportunity right there. So I think the curious action taking is something to be commended because. Most people would say well who can I model or.And it's OK to model. But I think just like you said the ambiguity and you being very comfortable in it really helped you all along the entire process. So that's pretty cool. That's a great idea. That was I'm sure completely out of left field for somebody to say well that's not how we do it.Susan: Right.Patty: And then you're probably like Oh really. And then by that time it was a really approving concept I'm assuming right.Susan: I mean it's worked great for us.Patty: That's awesome. I love that but not a great story like not following conventional wisdom So, Oh my god that's awesome. OK. So tell me now at the beginning like what were some of the myths as you put so many people are in a situation where they have a great idea with a very passionate which is what you're saying or they have like-minded friends colleagues that turn into partners and they were allowed into this journey of saying OK we got to make this happen.It takes tenacity and we take action. And so it's like I always say there's just peaks and valleys through this whole journey. What were some of the like kind of crash and burn moments where you questions. Should we continue? And how did you get out of it.Susan: I'll let Stephanie answer that but I'm just going to say that this shorter story is how many peaks were there not how many valleys.Patty: That's so sad I might need a tissue.Stephanie: Oh yeah.No no I'll give you the home where I really thought we were closing up shop like this. Sue knows the story I'm going to stop. So it just launched a new product. And we were things were going well with a distribution model we had partnered with an organization that was going to execute on this distribution model. Was going to be all over the country at different events. And so because the first event was close to where we are based in Cleveland Ohio is the you know let's go to the first one let's watch how it rolls out. You know we can always learn the server I guess or go to. So we went there and discovered that what we had agreed to with this company was not how it was taking place. So we watched you know this event unfold realized that they were not upholding their end of the bargain. And. We seize the day it's so us.I'm looking at Sue and I can see each other while were sitting there having this conversation though your listeners can't and I'm laughing because it was so us. I'm realizing maybe the theme of your team is rule breaking. So Sue and I we're taking this new publication we have and we kept like breaking all the rules.You know they were told you know we could do this but we did it. They said don't do that. Well we did it anyway because they were not upholding our ends of the bargain. We sold advertising sponsorship that this would be distributed in a certain way. So yeah it was more like a cartoon where like you know they close one door and then the little people running around on the train coming the other door and they try, were trying everything.So we get back to our hotel room that night and we realize we get a real problem here. We think rollout to you knows another 30 cities and this distribution is not working. So we're sharing a hotel room. And we're talking go to bed and wake up at about 5:00 in the morning I think we may see like a light. Sue was on her computer and her computer is on her lap. And we're trying to figure out like OK what else can we do and create our own distribution method. And I thought yeah this is the day. And meanwhile I'm appearing Sue I don't know if you remember this part. I'm appearing on a panel maybe 48 hours later all of entrepreneurs and you know these are like oh like why it's so great to be entrepreneur.And success and all these great things. Anyway we end up figuring out a new distribution within Sue, 24 hours not even. I mean we already had a new plan and we felt good about it. We felt like well we're so glad this happened. Now we own this distribution of this whole thing and yet we thought you know in those 12 hours or whatever it was it felt like a thousand and 12 hours that this was going to be how we went out of business like this was it It was going to be our biggest accomplishment was really looking like our biggest failure and failure is just. That is not in our playbook.Susan: I love it. I mean one of the things about a partnership that is a marriage and works there I mean we have a wonderful partnership is that there's this. I would say that it's you know we kind of think well neither one of us hits that point of like we should get out of this at the same time. But I don't actually think that's what happens. I think what happens is when one of us articulates starts to tiptoe into that space of panic the other one is the spouse who stands up and says everything's going to be fine.Like there's not going to be two of us panicking right now. So it's not just me and it's not just Stephanie but we each play that role to each other when one of us is feeling like I just don't think we're going to be able to pull this off.And then the other ones like oh no I had a fabulous day. And even if it's not true even if a week later we both admit that like we were just being good to each other and bolstering each other but it really really does work.Patty:] That's amazing. And what do you think is the reason for that is that personality types like ying and yang. Did you guys have core values discussion or. I mean you've been together for so long you just kind of find your ebb and flow but what initially was a reason that you were able to create something really like where you're symbiotic. It sounds like.Susan: They were just too committed to succeeding at this. I mean I often look at my own marriage and I remember someone asked Pink the singer why she's still married and she said we just don't leave. And I thought you know in my own personal marriage I often feel like it's a commitment to the marriage even more than a commitment to the person.And I think Stephanie and I are so competitive and so damn committed to making this. You know what it could be that you know we're in it we're just both in it.Patty: That's cheating. All right so I'm going to flip the script a little bit .Susan, how would you describe Stephanie as an entrepreneur. Like what are her strengths that she brings to the table that are such a key component to your Teen Mag.Susan: I think the most amazing thing is to have divided the company in a way that we didn't even know was the right way. It was kind of like well I'll do this and I'll do this. And all of a sudden like Stephanie turned into I mean I guess the word is a sales person but it's not that it's so much more. It's an ability to really understand how you partner with other people to make those relationships grow.And. You know 11 years ago ten years ago whenever it clicked in it was like astonishing to watch and I was just telling Stephanie about the first time we sat with somebody and she threw out a number that was bigger than any we'd ever thrown out. And I was like I'm not so comfortable with silence. But she had already gone into the meeting deciding that silence was the important tool like she throws it out and sit quietlyYep. And I was like praying that I do not violate her rule. Because I could have come out there and completely. Like beat against ourselves you know. And we got the contract and it was insane. And that was just the beginning of this journey of like really learning a place that, I mean I think in very ironic ways where each doing what we should be doing. But we didn't know it.Patty: And how about you. How about you Stephanie if you were to describe what Susan brings to the table those personality attributes.Stephanie: Two things come to mind. The first would be. She is a great problem solver. She can solve anything. So like there is no wall that is too tall. So like you know. She'll get to something and. somebody quit. Somebody says we can't do that.Somebody said it doesn't matter what it is she'll say OK and she'll have it solved within like. A minute literally like it's crazy. It's crazy how quickly she can go from like standing at that wall. To jumping over it around it through. Doesn't matter does not matter.Patty: That's tenacity.Stephanie: That you were saying get out. What is her? Yeah her super power. She can mount large walls and circumvent them. That's one of them. And then the other one and I already lost her. Oh she has a great ability. I mean it's really so problems solver right to come at it from another angle that I thought. Would say well wait a minute so? If we're trying to get. X. Maybe we should be asking this question. Oh. I don't even think of that and it's so funny.And this is not what you asked. It relates to maybe just how we relate to each other. Is there are so many times I just telling the story yesterday to somebody or so many times where you know I mean meeting when we talking about something and somebody I don't I will refer to. Something and I'll say yes Sue had this awesome idea and she'll start language like you knew that was your idea. It was so not my idea we were talking then and then we honestly cannot remember. He wasn't. Maybe it was yours.What were very good and I always say this like. Often people call me Sue call her Steph and we make jokes with the same person and that am what you ask. Our values are very much the same. We have good marriages right. We have good relationships and we bring it into this business too But, We are very good. I would say at if we don't agree on something. And this gets back to nothing the same person we are very good at talking it through. And one of us eventually. It's never the same one will say you know what ,you got this.You got this like this is your you know like you were excellent at like throwing something back and forth. Well I don't see it like that. You know what. You take it. You're right or I don't even know I don't even care. You know you handle.Patty: And so here is what I'm seeing and I think is really important is that in the partnership you complement each other really well. You can recognize each other's strengths and then at the same time it sounds to me like there's little to no ego whatsoever. About who had the idea or who gets this or who gets to that because you know that it's all for making your teenmag.com get better at putting out a different product. That's very rare. Very rare.Susan: I want to say that we learned early on from somebody who turned out to be a wonderful mentor to us. That collaboration was a really it was the most valuable thing we could do in our business. And it came at a time that was so important for me personally because I was seeing everybody else in the space that we were in as a threat. And her response was at one time said look at this like to show her the competition and she said oh my god that's so exciting.Give them a call. And I was like. What? She's like yes maybe you can work together. So that really changed. I think for both Stephanie and I how we run the business and so when we can't figure out whose idea was that is the consummate compliment about collaboration that we've had people work for us and it didn't work out for them well at all because. That was a process that they couldn't wrap your head around that at the end we weren't going to know who got credit.That it was going to be like this brainstorming every second of every meeting where something bubbled to the top but it was a word from every single person. And at the end it was just the right thing. I love that there are people who can't just. I mean it's not better or worse it's just not the environment they work well in.Stephanie: Sue do you remember whose idea the cover sponsor was.Susan: No clue.Stephanie: Exactly.Susan: Do you?Stephanie: No I have no idea. That's my point. No idea, it could have been your idea Patty. I have no idea.Patty: Well I was going to say this I remember one of the best bosses I ever worked with corporate was so great because he was all about collaboration. And I remember we had a presentation in front of our biggest client at the time is when I was in management consulting and that something had happened at home my son had to be hospitalize he was like 3 years old. And I called them up and I was Paul, I can't make it. Like literally I have to be here.It's you know my son is in the hospital like anybody else would be like well what are we going to do in this and that. And then it was like without hesitation he's like, No problem. So and so we'll pick up the ball and one of the things that I so appreciate it at the beginning of why I got that job was because we've worked together, we play together we win together. And if you don't understand that I will cut you off like cancer.Like he was so militant about that one whirl. And because of that we operated like a well-oiled machine it was probably the best situation I've ever been in in the tenure that I had in corporate life you know 18 years because the majority of people are all about well who gets the credit. I want to look good. It's very self-serving. Whereas he was like he understood.Those by all of us contributing were so much stronger. Right. And we're all going to get the accolades that we want by collaborating in that way. And that's such a distinct Sense of leadership and emotional intelligence that literally 99 percent of people just don't have. So that is a huge competitive advantage to you guys that I could see just from the outside looking at. So I think that's phenomenal.Susan: OK I want another chance to give Stephanie superpowers.Patty: Yeah go ahead.Susan: So the two that make. Life fun. Is that Stephanie laughs like a lot? She laughs. I mean I wish I could see what my sister in law gave my husband. But it was something about how no one thinks I'm funnier than me. So my husband in my work status.Believe that, like they both they like look at her. I mean you can see her but her whole body is involved in a lot of right thing.Susan: Right. So they both find themselves very funny which of course actually does create just an atmosphere of Laughter. It does.Patty: Yeah.Susan: And so that's so much fun and cuts through any problem you ever had and then the other thing that I marvel at because I think I'm 8 years older than you right?Stephanie: I know I'm going to be 50 in March.Susan: I'm going to be 58 in April so that's a good idea.Stephanie: There you go. Were also good at math.Susan: Yes you're very good at that. The thing is I cannot remember anybody's name anymore at all. And Stephanie knows if your daughter was dating. Am and who the person was and where they went to college and they were thinking about transferring so she made a connection and she checks up on that. So if you're going to be in sales you want to. STEPHANIE.Stephanie: Yeah I was at one. No you don't. Because she belongs to you. So but yeah that is a phenomenal spokes at. For a 50 sample yesterday morning Sue and I are sitting in a coffee shop already at 2 waiting for a meeting I look over the coffee shop and I think I'd recognize someone that we met with one time it's been awhile it been a year So I'm out mother just see her, Sue look across over there. I think that's the person and I start You know, and Sue put her glasses on and she's looking in out first no one can see my face but she's got this look like I've never seen that person before in my life right.That look and I go Oh see you' recognize her huh. And we started. I'm like crying. Like everything is fair game. I agree with Sue says I'm going to be. If you can find any shred of something to laugh at. Count me in.Patty: That's awesome. That's awesome. All right so we're turning the corner. What do you each individually excited about. Of where yourteenmag.com is going.Susan: All right. Well last I think two weeks ago, Stephanie hadn't been out of town I would have called her and said we need to meet and talk about whether there's any way to pull this off. And two weeks later I think we are going to kill it in the biggest way.And I can't even believe. How things have come together. Working with you. This is extraordinary. Working with the people you're giving us which is extraordinary having. Like a man who has no reason to want to love us say he will work for us for pennies because he wants to see us succeed. I mean it's all. There's just all these things happening right now and they're working they're working. I think. You know it's like the sky's the limit right now. It's really exciting and we're never going to say it was an overnight success.Stephanie: I know.Susan: It is. Hard hard work more sleepless nights than nights with sleep. And we could never pull ourselves away from this because it's been a passion project.Patty: Well I love it.Stephanie: And the one thing I'll add to that is and they just said this to someone the other day. That I look around the table and look around like if the players can have their hands in Your Teen right now. And it's the right team. You know I look at every piece and my husband has a saying that when you see someone who's.Doing the job they were meant to do it. And he always says they're sitting in the right seat. I look around our table and I say Oh my God we've got every. It's all the right seeds. And like I've never felt like that in the business as much as I get. Excited is I feel different times whenever I can honestly look around now and say wow like how do we get so lucky.Patty: That's awesome. That is great. And it just shows because you were committed. You're committed until it wasn't until it's convenient or until you're tired or any of that it's like until ,until it gets to the levels of success that you that you deserve and you're looking for so I love it.I mean it's such an honor to be a part of you guys his journey on your teen and where you want to take it because there is so much more coming you're going to see the incredible feedback and how you can serve your customers or clients at such a different level in 2019. So for the people listening for more information check out your teenmag.comPatty: And you're on Facebook on Instagram or you on Pinterest as well.Susan: Twitter. Interest.Patty: Am I missing anything.Susan: [00:31:10] Twitter.Patty: Twitter. I always forget Twitter Twitter and now that again yourteenmag.com I so appreciate your heart because both of you have such tenacity and you guys in my book are bad asses so just so you know. It's official. You are bad asses.Susan: That's a compliment.Patty: A deep compliment because most people it just won't do what it takes to keep going so. So this was all about how do you know when it's time to quit. Well the answer is you don't. You don't when it's a passion project and you have the right team and the synergy is there and the collaboration is there and there's no ego in the whole thing.And I also really commend you for having a beautiful partnership that you've able to curates develops into something meaningful and it almost kind of crosses over doesn't it. Between the professional and personal like were you deeply are like gosh you guys are like family right. Like that level where you look at your team and say you all are like family. We deeply care about each other. That's when you know you hit the mark in terms of the lines are blurred in such a good way. That there's no difference between working or b right.It's a love that dynamic team is just jelling and it takes on a life of its own. So I see it very clearly with that you guys are developing. So thank you so much. Oh one last question I can't believe my famous question. The question is that each of you answers please. When all was said and done what do you want your legacy to be?Susan: Well I mean I love your teen. It's been a journey and a gift. And some of the things about your teen I love but my family I mean I already feel like you know there are moments in life I remember right after I got married being on a plane with a tremendous amount of turbulence and I thought well if I die right nowI have this great love affair like you know that I got to experience that. So I feel that way in my own life like to have this husband and these kids and these friendships and the partnership with Stephanie and all of these other people we've gotten to meet along the journey. It's hard to think of something better.Patty: Wow I love that How about for you Stephanie?Stephanie: No you can't take the words out of my mouth but I will add to that. It's funny you are saying about being a bad ass. The one thing I always say is I want to be known as a kind bad ass.Patty: Okay. Yeah definitely. There's a difference right about. The fact that you are a success but how you got to be a success. Right. If you like burn bridges in the process that was the big bad ass.Stephanie: Yeah yeah. Now that kindness goes a long way. I hope people think about me I was about that with my kids too that they were kind. Come to teach you Steph.Patty: Gracias she's throwing up the P sign. All right. All right ladies thank you so much for being on her legacy. Get yourteenmag.com and I so appreciate you and I think it be a good idea to come back on the podcast.Right because we're so many good things are happening for you all and see what happened right. The 12 year starts of what's the story of glory. We could talk about that about would be really cool. Sounds good.Susan: I think you got in steady.Patty: You so much for joining us on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast...Links mention in this episode:Website: yourteenmag.com,Media Handles: https://www.facebook.com/YourTeenhttps://www.instagram.com/yourteenmag/https://www.pinterest.com/yourteenmag

As your relationship changes, are things getting better and better? Or have you gotten stuck along the way? If you get stuck - how do you get unstuck? And no matter what happens, how do you foster a sense of collaboration, of being on the “same team” with your partner? Today’s guests, Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson, have charted the course of how relationships develop - in fact, they created the “Developmental Model” for working with couples. Along with practical experience from having helped many couples, Ellyn and Peter are among the leaders in the field of training couples therapists to become more effective. Their book for therapists, In Quest of the Mythical Mate: A Developmental Approach to Diagnosis and Treatment in Couples Therapy is a classic that has stood the test of time - unlike many other books and theories that have come and gone. Today you’ll learn how to figure out where you’re stuck in your relationship, and how to be on the same team as you steer things back in a healthier direction. Also, please check out our first episode with Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson - Relationship Alive Episode 24: Why We Lie (and How to Get Back to the Truth) As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode has a cool new sponsor with a special offer for you - Songfinch.com. Songfinch.com helps you create an original song as a unique gift for any special occasion. You tell them what the occasion is, what emotions you want your song to evoke, what type of song you want, and give them a little bit of your story - and they bring your story to life with a radio-quality song that captures it all. Songfinch is offering you $20 off a personalized “Song from Scratch” if you use the coupon code ALIVE20 at checkout. Resources: Check out Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson's website Get Ellyn and Peter’s Guide to Super Negotiation for Couples and find out about their other resources FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict… Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) www.neilsattin.com/development Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Thank you so much for being with us here today on Relationship Alive. Pete Pearson: It's good to be here, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, really happy to be with you again, Neil. Neil Sattin: Awesome. Yes. It's been a while since episode 24, which was when we last spoke, when we're now in the 150s here. So ... Pete Pearson: Oh my goodness. Neil Sattin: I know, I know. So Pete, we were just talking, and we were talking about the ... Before we started officially, we were talking about this question about what people do when they get triggered, and you said, "That's not the most important question for people to be asking." And so I'm curious, from your perspective, what is the most important question that people should be asking? Pete Pearson: See, here's what's interesting, Neil. In just about every couple that we see, a couple will get an insight into where they're stuck, how they're stuck, and why they're stuck. And the next question almost inevitably is, "Well, what do we do about it?" And that's an understandable question. And I used to think, "Oh, they're asking me for advice. I'll give them advice about what to do right now." And then they will leave, they will practice what I just expressed, they will come back, and they will be on bending knee thanking me for my wisdom, intelligence, smarts, etc. Pete Pearson: What I discovered is, and they say, "God you're so wonderful, what other advice do you have? And we're gonna tell all our friends about you, because you're so smart. " Well what I discovered was, it didn't happen that often. But yet they asked, "What do we do about it?" And then I discovered, the what do we do about it is a good question, but it's a premature question. Really the question that comes before is, "How motivated are you to do something about it?" See, it takes a strong motivation, a bigger picture that pulls us forward, and that bigger picture, that stronger motivation is what allows us to unhook from those triggers. And if the motivation is puny, then no matter what I say that could be effective, will not be applied. Neil Sattin: Yeah, we had David Burns on the show, and he was talking about how surprised he often is that when it gets right down to it, a lot of couples that he's worked with, actually aren't willing to change. Even though they are coming to couples' therapy, they would prefer being stuck where they are, versus whatever's required to change the direction. Pete Pearson: Well I think that's true for one part of them. Here's what I mean. And I think the dilemma of change was summed up brilliantly by James Baldwin, the playwright and writer, when he said, "Nothing is more desirable than to be relieved of our affliction." And that's the motivation that brings couples into therapy. "Nothing is more desirable than to be relieved of our affliction, and nothing is more terrifying than to be divested of our crutch." And that I interpreted as, "nothing is more terrifying than to be divested of our coping mechanisms. Our self-protections." Pete Pearson: So couples are in a terrible bind. They want to be relieved of their affliction, yes, and it's terrifying to be divested of their coping mechanisms. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and you speak also in your work about the importance of both people recognizing that there's something in it for them, whatever it is they're experiencing. I'm thinking right now of the example you give of people, and we'll explain this a little bit more as we go, but people who are in a symbiotic and practicing relationship. Where one of them is working to be more independent from the other, and the other one is like, "No, come back here. Be with me." And it creates all of this tension and conflict and it's easy for the practicing partner to overlook the fact that they actually benefit a lot from that symbiotic welcome home, that they get from their partner, even though it's confounding them in their quest for independence. Pete Pearson: Ellen, you want to speak to that? Ellyn Bader: Yeah, but I'm not sure what the question is. I can speak about that type of couple, but Neil, did you have a question there? Neil Sattin: Yeah, good point. So the question in there, I think it was more of an observation that this is a situation where people are invested in the problem, or invested in the crutch as Pete was talking about. Maybe the question is, what are some strategies you have for helping people become aware of their role or of the crutch that they have in the moment, even if they think, for instance, that something is all about their partner's problem? Ellyn Bader: So I think what you're asking is, first of all, at least to me it's like, how does a person take a look at what they're doing that's getting in their own way, and can you get some acknowledgement that a particular thing somebody is doing, is actually getting in their own way of being able to realize the dreams that brought them together or being able to accomplish something they want to accomplish. So there's the question of, "Okay, what are some things you do to help somebody realize it?" So that's one piece. Then the second piece is what Pete was talking about, is "Can you lay out what it's going to take to change it, and then increase motivation? Or is there motivation to actually do the work or put in the effort." And then certainly you want the couple to be able to collaborate and work together on that process of change, so that they are reinforcing each other as they go through what is challenging and difficult for them to do. Ellyn Bader: So when you can get all three of those things really solidly in place, you're gonna have a couple that's motivated and working with you in the therapy process. When any one of those things, is missing, you're gonna have a much harder time, and therapists often report having sessions that are repetitive and seem to go nowhere and the couple comes in week after week with the same fight or the same dynamic. So I think you have to look at all three of those, and make sure that you've got them all in place. Neil Sattin: Yeah, where do you feel would be a great place to start? I mean, what's popping into my mind immediately, is your concept of developing a strong future focus for a couple, based on where they are developmentally? Pete Pearson: See, that's an important place when we start to figure out the steps for change. But to get people to own their part, I find now is, what I do in the first 10 or 15 minutes of the first session, is to have people own their part. But I do it in a rather indirect way. It's like it's traditional for most therapists, when a couple comes in for the first session to ask, "Why are you here," or "How can I help?" And at that point most couples launch of barrage of cross complaints about, "Well, I'm here because my partner is insensitive. They're a slob. They're not affectionate. They're not responsible. They don't follow through." Etc., etc. And so they trade blames. Pete Pearson: And then after a few minutes, everybody in the room is feeling miserable, I know that because I've been there so many times. And then I found there's a much better way to get to the bottom of what they struggle with without any blame at all. And I will say to them, "It's typical for most therapists to ask when we start the first meeting, is to say, 'why are you here?'" I say, "I don't want to do that, because it just ends up everybody blaming everybody. So what I'd like to do is ask you guys a diagnostic question, and it lets me know how well you've been listening to each other. Which also lets me know how hard you're gonna have to work in here. So Joe, tell me what do you think are Sue's major complaints about you are? And Sue, what do you think Joe's major complaints about you are? And it doesn't matter who goes first, because you both get a chance to express that." Pete Pearson: And at that point, Joe will say, "Well Sue will say that I'm too preoccupied with my devices. I don't spend enough time with the family. I don't call if I'm gonna be home for work. I just, and I want affection without being nice during the day or the evening, and ..." And then I'll say, "Oh, man, those sound really good, Joe. What else?" And he says, "Well, I think she thinks I'm not very careful with money." Well I'll say "Dynamite. Those are good. Joe, how confident are you on a scale of one to ten that Sue's gonna say you nailed it?" Joe'll say, "Well about a seven or eight." And then I'll say, "What those complaints you just mentioned, is there some legitimacy to her complaints?" And he'll say, "Well, yeah." But I don't go into detail. Pete Pearson: See at that point, and then I'll say, "So Sue, how good has been doing?" "Well he's been listening, and frankly, I think he's listened better than I thought. I'd give him about a seven or eight on that or maybe even a nine." "Sue, do you have any appreciation for Joe, listening so well to you? Now why hasn't he done anything is why you guys are here. But is there a part of you that appreciates that at least he's been listening?" And she'll say, "Well yeah." "Well tell him." "Joe I didn't know you listened so well. Thank you for listening." Pete Pearson: So instead of being defensive, now they're collaborating and giving each other compliments, and each of them, when they do that, have just laid out what the problems are by owning their stuff instead of having their partner do it for them. Almost nobody Neil, nobody wants to meet somebody and within 10 minutes start being ripped by their spouse about all their flaws and faults. All that does is create shame, embarrassment and guilt. But doing it this way, people claim their stuff for themselves, I don't have to work as hard, I get to understand the problems, and the atmosphere in the room is a whole lot better. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I can see how that would get things started off on the right foot. Both with giving you a sense of what's going on for them, and how well they listen, and also, the degree to which they're able to see their part or take responsibility for at least what they think their partner is complaining about with them. Pete Pearson: Exactly. And that can only be done in the first 20 minutes. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. That's perfect. I'm curious. Do you still ... You talk about the paper exercise in your book, The Inquest of the Mythical Mate. Do you still do that exercise with couples? Ellyn Bader: Actually, you're right where I was gonna go. Because that exercise is an absolutely fabulous exercise. In five minutes a therapist can see and then can help feedback to the couple where they break down. It's an exercise that's designed to help you and couples ... And a concept the we talk a lot about is the concept of differentiation. And basically, the way the exercise goes is the therapist hands the couple a piece of paper and asks them to hold it between them, and gives them up to five minutes to decide who gets to hold the paper without ripping or tearing it. They can do it verbally, they can do it non-verbally, they can do it anyway they like, but at the end of five minutes, decide who has the paper. Ellyn Bader: And then you get to sit back as the therapist, you get to sit back and watch for five minutes, and then in watching, you're going to be giving the couple feedback about how they do. And the exercise, I can give you a few highlights right now. It's a very wonderfully sophisticated exercise for getting to leverage stuck places in couples' relationships. But I mean, you're looking for whether people self-define. Whether they avoid conflict. Whether they're able to go into the conflict. Whether they have skills to negotiate and move a conflict forward. Ellyn Bader: And so when you can talk to a couple about, "Hey, here's what I saw. Does this make sense? Here's what I think each of you did that was positive and great and effective, and here's where I think you're stuck, or here's where I see you getting stalled. And usually what you see in terms of how couples are getting stalled in that exercise, are similar to what they do at home, that prevents them from solving problems or sets them up to be angry at each other. And it's a very not-threatening, very sort of collaborative process that you can get into with couples when you do that exercise with them. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and what I loved about reading your book, was not only the recognition that I had about, "Oh, okay. Yeah. I recognize having been in a relationship that was stuck in this place or that place," and let's, before we go too much further, we'll define them so that people know what we're talking about. But I also love PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:17:04] Neil Sattin: how, I think it's easy to, let's say, someone here says, "Well, I'm going to try that with my partner. Let's grab this paper and see if we can figure it out." And then for some reason they can't or they have a huge eruption or at an impasse to feel like, "Wow, we must be really horrible as a couple because we couldn't even do this paper exercise right." Neil Sattin: But what I love is that it just is simply a way of getting insight into where you are, but that each place where you might be stuck simply represents a place where you need to grow and growing past that place gives you a pathway to a new level of intimacy and being able to handle conflict better and being able to stand really strongly in who you are while still enjoying intimacy with your partner. Ellyn Bader: Oh, absolutely and one of the things that I think is so valuable about it is that it's easy when you're in the midst of it with your partner and you're like going home after work and you're having fights or you're not getting along well on weekends or you're fighting over disciplining the kids. It's easy to think you have a whole lot of problems, but when you can find the leveraged place, the place that repeats, and you learn how to do that differently, then you start doing it differently in all the different areas that you have conflict. So you don't actually always have to go back and solve every single problem that you think that you have if you change the process of how you talk and the process of how you approach things that are stressful. Neil Sattin: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. How much do you feel like awareness, before we dive into it, briefly, of the developmental model, how much do you think that awareness is helpful for a couple to be able to see, like, "Okay, this is the span of how couples develop looks like and this is where we're at." Is that enlightening or confining? From a couple's perspective versus the therapist's perspective. Ellyn Bader: I can tell you what the therapists in my online training program report. And so, I have therapists who work with me, basically, who are in countries all over the world and many of them report that their clients feel relieved when they see the process. We have little brochures that we use and that a lot of therapists give to their clients which layout the stages and sometimes they'll send a couple home to look at it and figure out where they are. Sometimes they'll just talk about it. But when couples can see, hey, there is kind of a normal progression that a lot of relationships go through and either we're right on track, which is sometimes the case, or hey, we got stuck here and this is what our challenge is so that we can move forward. And what we always say is, when couples get unstuck, then they can get back into their own developmental process. They don't need a therapist all the way through their whole development. Neil Sattin: Right. So, would you be willing, or I could do this too, but because I don't want to put you on the spot completely, but to give sort of the two to three minute overview of, what are we talking about, the developmental stages that a couple goes through? Ellyn Bader: Pete, do you want to do it or do you want me to do it? Pete Pearson: Go ahead, Ellyn. Ellyn Bader: Okay. So, the quick version is, two people meet, they fall in love. In the ideal world, everything is beautiful, wonderful. They have that incredible falling in love period, which I sometimes call a period of temporary psychosis. But it's a period in which there's bonding and attachment and not everybody starts that way, but a lot of couples do. And then it's normal by about two years into the relationship, sometimes a little sooner, sometimes a little longer, but it's very, very normal to hit a period of disillusionment when the partner is taken off that pedestal and instead of being seen as wonderful, all of a sudden the flaws start to show up and that disillusionment period is normal. Ellyn Bader: And then what people have to contend with is, how do we work out who are you and who am I given that we not only have parts of ourselves in each other that we love, but parts of each other that we find sometimes disgusting or we don't really want to be around or we don't like and that's all normal. But what's hard for couples is to learn how to manage those differences effectively instead of ineffectively. When they handle it ineffectively, they start to blame, accuse, or withdraw and then they get into some negative patterns. Ellyn Bader: So the second stage of relationship is the stage of differentiation. It's a stage in which partners do learn how to come to terms with their differences. When that goes well, actually people are able to have a lot more independence than they had in the first two stages because there's a base of connection and a base of, hey, we know to solve things. We solve them well. And then they can be out in the world more. They can be doing more independent things, enjoying other things that they're bringing back to help nourish the relationship, and so there's often a period in which that can go on for many, many years in which each partner is developing their own self-esteem apart from how the relationship is fairing. Ellyn Bader: And then at some point often there's a period of reconnection or of returning to the relationship as a source of greater nurturance and often couples at this time tend to focus more on their sexual relationship or on different aspects of intimacy when they're reconnecting. And many couples who get through all of this end up wanting to create something together and so we even talk about a last stage being a synergistic stage. A stage in which one plus one is really greater than two and they support each other in ways or goals or projects that are meaningful to both of them. So that's a very quick version of sometimes what I teach in a whole morning. Neil Sattin: That was great. And I'm thinking back to how you mentioned that you're working a lot with entrepreneurial couples these days and I'm curious to know how you draw distinction between couples who are working together from a synergistic place that one plus one is more than two, versus couples who are coming at that from a more enmeshed place where they're not ... It's about just not being able to be without each other. Pete Pearson: I guess, that gave me, what a great question. If couples want to start working together and they haven't been able to work out yet how to manage their differences or their disillusionments, boy, are they in for a wild ride. If you think about all the different areas of interdependence that couples have when they're not even working together, where they have areas of interdependency, our family and friends and finances and fitness and food and fidelity and faith and man, there are a lot of F words in an interdependent relationship. Pete Pearson: And each one of those areas require a set of negotiation problem solving skills and working together. And then you add all those areas of interdependency with all the areas of interdependency at work, when they're working together. What could possibly go wrong? So, the problems just are geometric when you work with your partner, your spouse, and yet, more and more couples are working together. There's a lot of entrepreneurs out there on the internet or doing franchise operations and their spouse is involved and that just really doubles the opportunity to collide. It also doubles the opportunity to synergize your strengths and abilities. Pete Pearson: So, it really, the push and pull is enormous to deal with the differences and it's ... Sometimes I will say, I will ask couples, "Would you want to be married to a personality clone of yourself?" Most couples say no. And I'll say, "Well, why is that?" And the category it's generally falling to, "Well, if I'm married to a clone of myself ... If I married a clone, it would be like World War 3." Or, "If I married a clone of myself, it'd be really interesting, but nothing would get accomplished." And as one woman said, "I would have all my problems times two." Pete Pearson: And so the good news is, they're smart enough to know that differences can enhance a relationship, but the same differences can also corrode a relationship, but we want to marry somebody who is different. And that's the good news and the bad news. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I'm just thinking too about how time, being such a limiting resource in many respects with everything that people are trying to accomplish in today's world and so I could see that providing incentive for people to want to work together as a way to actually maybe be able to spend more time together. Pete Pearson: Right. Neil Sattin: And yet, from what you're saying, I also gather, like, wow, it is so important in that case to be able to identify, oh, here we are not handling conflict very productively and here are all the signs of that. Whether it's increased resentment or increased ... Just increased conflict that gets explosive versus actually resolving. And that comes from what you were talking about, right Ellyn? That sense of, have you differentiated effectively enough so that you can stand in who you are, but actually meet the other person as a whole person unto themselves and have a collaborative way of being on the same team as you navigate those places where you're not in alignment. Ellyn Bader: Yeah. One of the things, Neil, that I find really interesting, as I said, I've started doing some more work with entrepreneurs and their spouses and particularly, I love working with the couples who are fairly new to going into business together because one of the things that they know they have a ton at stake because if they don't make it, their business is going to have problems or have to be split up as well as their marriages or their committed partnerships. And so they actually have, in some cases, a much higher motivation to get it right at the beginning, and also sometimes it's easier for people to get the concept that in business, our roles and responsibilities need to be really clearly defined. Ellyn Bader: And that's also true on the home front with a lot of couples, but couples don't tend to think about it that way, they tend to think about it as, well, if our relationship is good, everything will just go smoothly and we can move back and forth smoothly. Neil Sattin: Right. It all just works itself out. Ellyn Bader: Exactly. And so they know- Pete Pearson: That's the hope. Ellyn Bader: Right. That's the hope and the belief that it should be easy. But yet, when you have clearly defined roles, it mitigates a lot of conflict. Ellyn Bader: Here comes our gardener making some noise I'm sorry to say. Neil Sattin: I can hear it, but it's so faint in the background and you're coming through so loud and clear that as long as you're able to concentrate, then I think we're good. Ellyn Bader: Okay. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So, I love that. So, one potential option if you're having trouble motivating to actually change is to start a business together. Ellyn Bader: Well, except if your relationship is a mess, it's not a great time to start a business together. Pete Pearson: You'll have all your problems times two. Neil Sattin: Just kidding. But it does bring us back to that question of how you get people to buy-in. To like ... Okay, this is actually going to require something of me to create change in our relationship. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, and most people who have worked in the workplace understand that there are different roles and responsibilities that come with a job and they've been in jobs where they've had people on a team who are doing different aspects of the work. And so they've had that experience and it makes logical sense. But then when they go home and they think, there's just two of us, they don't think about saying, okay, who's responsible for organizing childcare? Who's responsible for our finances or is somebody paying the bills and somebody else doing the investments? Who's responsible for cooking dinner on Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday or does somebody always cook and somebody always clean up? And they get into patterns, but often it's not really clearly delineated. Neil Sattin: Right. So, is there a process that, if I'm listening to this and thinking, "Oh, you know, some of those things we haven't actually figured out," or "I wonder if we've differentiated effectively?" How could I diagnose myself or our relationship to know if that's happened or not? Pete Pearson: Well, the easy way to know that it's happened, Neil, is, what does my partner do that annoys me? And when you start from a place of, what does my partner do that annoys me in what area of stuff around the house, I would bet that it's because you haven't clearly delineated and agreed upon the roles and responsibilities of that area. Couples kind of normally fall into those patterns in kind of like happenstance, but there's a lot of slippage and a lot of boundary confusion or unclarity about who is really responsible for what and who gets the deciding vote in that area. And that's when our annoyances almost always come from expectations, "My partner's not meeting my expectations." So, the annoyances have to do with expectations of partners that haven't been clarified very well or agreed upon. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Or assumptions that you're making. Pete Pearson: Assumptions, yes. Neil Sattin: So, I'm curious for couples who say, think, "Well, generally it works out okay, but when we try to have that conversation, it doesn't go so well, like either ... That could be an explosive argument, or it could be I just always have to give in, because we can't have that conversation. What are some ways that you offer couples to help them have that conversation in a way that's more generative, and you talk about ... I think you talk about fighting fairly or conflict ... I can't remember the exact phrase that you use, but agreements around how you have conflict. Ellyn Bader: Well, before we even go there, let's say that when couples are trying to negotiate, they make some mistakes. One of the big mistakes that people make is caving in too quickly and they don't realize that when they hit that place of tension, that's actually the place where it's important to stay with it a while longer and figure something out and not see that tension as something bad, but see that tension as where their growth edge actually is. Ellyn Bader: And so, it's a long story, and we won't go into all the details, but Pete and I talk about many years ago, when we ran workshops together, how we reached a point of conflict, and where we each wanted something very different and it took a full year to sort it out and a full year of actually having to work with the tension, until we came to something that worked for both of us and enabled us to keep working together, because otherwise we would've had too much conflict and not been able to continue working together, running workshops together. People think they should get through stuff faster sometimes than is actually possible. Ellyn Bader: The process of getting through it is a process where both you get to know yourself better, and you get to know your partner better, if you can stay curious about why something matters to your partner, stay curious about why is it so important to you, learning how to ask really good questions, learning how not to cave too fast. There's many different capacities that are involved in successfully differentiating and successfully managing conflict that get strengthened. The emotional muscle gets built as couples go through that together. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, so I could almost see, like for instance, if you sense that your partner is just caving in, because you've hit that point of tension, to have the willingness to say, “No, I don't want to just get my way here. Let's figure out a way to have this conversation, as long as is required.” Ellyn Bader: Right, right, and you know, people who tend to be very active and assertive often end up with partners who are a bit more passive than they, themselves, are and for a while it may work to let the more passive person just cave in, but then, over time, instead of having clear roles and responsibilities, what you actually have is the active person doing way, way, way, way more, and the other person doing less, and resentment building. You need to be able to stop that caving in process early. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, what's ... Maybe we could talk briefly about a structure that could be helpful for people, when they realize they're at this place, a point of tension that's where they tend to get stuck. What might- Pete Pearson: Hey, I have an ... Ellyn, I have an idea. Neil, if we could post somewhere, where your listeners could go to and get a four-page document called, “Super Negotiation for Couples.” Neil Sattin: Love it. Pete Pearson: It's a really step-by-step process for how to negotiate and how to avoid the two big problems of negotiation, which is either caving in too quickly or pushing yourself too hard to get what you want, at the expense of the other. I can give you a link where your listeners could go and get that document. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that would be great, if it's easy. We can always post it in the transcript of the show, as well. Pete Pearson: That would be great, but very quickly, and then we'll send you the link, and it could be posted in the transcript. It's couplesinstitute.com/blog, and then in the blog, it's Super Negotiation for Couples, couplesinstitute.com/blog, and the blog is “Super Negotiation for Couples.” It's four pages, which is really good, a step-by-step process to lead you through what can be negotiated, and, interestingly enough, what cannot be negotiated, and even more importantly, how to prepare ahead of time to make an effective negotiation. Neil Sattin: Great. I can already envision enlisting Chloe and doing it experimentally and recording ourselves for the podcast- Pete Pearson: Oh, cool! Yeah. Neil Sattin: So that you can hear us live going into negotiating or not, something really sensitive for us. Pete Pearson: Oh, that would be interesting. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, totally. I appreciate your sharing that link, and we will definitely have a direct link to that in the transcript and show notes, as well. Pete Pearson: Terrific. Neil Sattin: I guess that saves us from having to go through the whole thing here. Pete Pearson: Right. Neil Sattin: One thing that I want to touch on is when people get into relationship and, Ellyn, you mentioned, very often, not always, but very often there's that initial falling in love or that feeling of merging, or we're the same, or we're meant for each other. This is perfect. Then the disillusionment happens, where you start realizing the person isn't perfect. Yet, towards the end of the developmental process, when you're actually in that place of synergy, I don't think you're going to feel like you're the same again, but you will feel an intense level of intimacy and closeness that, in some ways, is at least a variation on the theme of that kind of intimacy that you experience at the very start of your relationship. Neil Sattin: I want to bring this up, because I feel like, so often, the struggle for people is wanting to hang onto what they experienced at the very beginning out of fear of moving like that, in the differentiation process, they're going to lose each other. How do you keep people connected, while they're differentiating? Ellyn Bader: First of all, one of the ways that I explain this, and I think it's a visual that people really get, is you know the disco balls that have mirrors all around them? Neil Sattin: Yes. Ellyn Bader: I keep a disco ball in my office. What I say is a disco ball represents each person, and all the mirrors on the ball are different facets of yourself. When you two met and fell in love, the disco ball mirrors that were facing each other or were setting each other off, and you were falling in love, and all the brain chemicals got going, are those places where you really felt like you were the same, like you were meant for each other, like everything was just perfect. Ellyn Bader: Well, because everybody has so many different facets of themselves, it's inevitable that those balls are going to spin. There's going to be a period in which the ones that are facing each other are actually the ones where you don't get along so well, or you're not the same, and where you have growth that needs to take place, in order to keep the connection. Over time, the balls are going to continue to spin, and you will learn things that will deepen your connection and, actually, the kind of intimacy that most couples experience when they get to the other side of that is a kind of intimacy that feels more real and more grounded than that super-exciting, temporary psychosis that went on at the beginning. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I mean the disco ball isn't terribly effective when it stays in one place. It needs to spin for- Ellyn Bader: Exactly. Neil Sattin: Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Ellyn Bader: Now, and a relationship needs juice. It needs energy, and some of that energy comes from the differences, as well as from the similarities. Neil Sattin: I suggest that you, at home, you pick your favorite disco tune, and you can hum it to yourself when you're in a moment of uncertainty about the direction that you're headed. I'm already getting it might be the night fever, we know how to go it. Pete Pearson: Cool. Neil Sattin: There's that reassurance that you're headed towards that place, and yet it can feel really scary to give, to grant, freedom, or to take freedom, let's say, to take that independence. Is there a specific way that you encourage people to do that, to enter into that required process, but to maintain an awareness of the other person's heart and how they're affecting them, but not in a way that leads to codependence? Pete Pearson: That question, Neil, brings us full circle back to where we started. Instead of saying, “Here's how you do it,” or, “Here's the way to do it,” it's like, “What is your motivation for doing it? What are the advantages for put ... Why would you put forth the effort? Why would you take the emotional risk? Why would you take the sustained effort to bring that about?” Then we can talk about how to do it, but let's first talk about the "why" you would be willing to do it. It's the why that gives us the motivation to do the work. Ellyn Bader: Pete, I think of some of the stuff that you've been doing lately around couples as a team also is part of an answer to Neil's question. Pete Pearson: Totally, because we first have to identify where we get stuck, where the pain is. That's easy for couples to do. Pete Pearson: “Here's where I get triggered. When my partner does X, this is what happens, and I get triggered.” Pete Pearson: I say, “Great, let's look at what you feel/think when you get triggered.” Pete Pearson: They go, “Oh, that's easy to do.” Pete Pearson: Now I will say, “Let's shift, because we have to shift from where you are in that emotional brain, that lizard brain reflex, that self-protection, and let's talk about how you aspire to be instead. If you come from your higher self, your transformative self, you're better self, what would that look like? Instead of responding from a defensive, blaming, accusatory, withdrawing place, what would be a better way of responding?” Pete Pearson: Most of the time, people can say, “Well, I'd be better if I was calmer, if I was curious, if I was a little more compassionate, if I was a better listener.” Pete Pearson: Then here's, I say, the key question, which is, “Why would you be willing to make the effort to go to that future focus, that forward focus? Why would you be willing to do that?”  Then, that gets us to all the benefits for change. People only change for three reasons: to avoid a greater pain, for the benefits involved or the rewards involved, and to live more within our integrity about how we aspire to be. We talk about why they would be willing to make the effort. Pete Pearson: Then, I'll say, "When you get stuck, when you get triggered, I want you to clasp your hands together and squeeze. That will, first of all, distract you from being looping in that emotional, lizard brain response. Then, think about how you would aspire to be, and why you would change and be that way. When your partner sees you clasping your hands, that's a signal to your partner that you are struggling to change your response and come from your better self. Then your partner will say to you, 'Oh, thank you. I appreciate your willingness to try to avoid going into that old place and do something different. I really appreciate that. What can I do to help that? What can I say or what can I do right now that would be helpful?'"  I say, "When you guys do that, now you're working together as a team." Neil Sattin: Perfect, and that being the whole goal is recognizing that, even as you progress through these stages of togetherness leading into greater independence, leading back to greater interdependence, that you're on the same team with each other. Pete Pearson: Yes. Neil Sattin: You're not out to get each other. You've got each other's back, and you can help each other through that process. Pete Pearson: Exactly. Neil Sattin: Well, Pete Pearson and Ellyn Bader, it's been a treat to have you on the show again, just like the first time around. I wish I had read your book, In Quest of the Mythical Mate, years ago, but I'm so thrilled that I read it now. I would say it's required reading for any couples therapist out there. You're doing a lot of work, training couples therapists, as well as work helping lay people just do better in relationships, through your work at The Couples Institute. Neil Sattin: Thank you, again, for being with us here today. I'll make sure we have links to your website, so people can find your work. I just want to say how grateful I am for the work you're doing in the world, and for your willingness to come and share it with us here on Relationship Alive. We could talk more, and hopefully, we'll get that chance again sometimes soon. Pete Pearson: Thank you, Neil, so much, for what you're doing to bring the message to the people out there. Neil Sattin: My pleasure. Ellyn Bader: Yes, thank you, Neil. It's always a pleasure talking with you, and I also will mention that I'm going to be doing a free online workshop between August 13th and 25th, so if any of your listeners want to participate in that, I can send you a link for that, as well. Neil Sattin: That would be great, and I can actually send that out to my mailing list, as well, so that people can find out about it that way. Ellyn Bader: That would be fantastic. Pete Pearson: Thank you, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, that would be great. Neil Sattin: Absolutely. Well, we'll be in touch about that, and always great to talk to you guys. Take care. Ellyn Bader: You, too. Pete Pearson: Bye-bye, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Bye.  

Rev. Sue Washburn writing in Presbyterians Today Sept/Oct 2016 p. 4 When the world goes dark, the faithful testify with their lives to the light of the world Soul Opportunitya sermon by Rev. J. Christy RamseyClick the title above for a mp3 recording Audio from Lake Tahoe Community Presbyterian Church on November 13, 2016, text below edited from a flawless transcription made by edigitaltranscriptions all errors are mine. Luke 21:5-19 Sermons also available free on iTunes Sometimes, a doorbell just doesn’t work. Like when you get the pounding on your door at three in the morning, saying, “Get out of your house now. The fire is coming. We can’t promise to save your house, but we can save you if you leave with us right now.” And so you go. Will you come home? Will your home be all right as you left it? Will it be damaged? Will it be destroyed? Will there just be a patch of ground there? Doorbells don’t work on terrible, awful, no-good days. Maybe you had one of them. Where is she? She’s supposed to be home by now. She’s never late. She always calls. What happened to her? Should I call the police? Should I call the hospital? You’re waiting. You’re not going to go to sleep. Where is she? Is she having too much fun? Or is she in an accident? Is she hurt, or worse? Did someone take her? Will she come home again? Are you worrying too much, or not enough? Terrible, awful, no-good things, the things that might happen, the things that might have already happened, the things that are going to happen. The terrible, awful, no-good days. It seemed real special relationship. He really loved you. He wanted a special picture. So you took a private picture with your phone and sent it just to him. Now it’s all over Facebook. Now everyone at school has commented, either on what type of slut you are, how easy you are, how terrible you are; or some kind of rating system about your very body, whether you’re a four or six or seven. And then there’s other folks that go on and say all sorts of horrible, awful things they want to do to you because of that picture that you only sent to that one special one. What are you going to do? And what if your parents found out? Everybody at school already knows. You’re going to have to move. You can’t go back to school. What do you do when terrible, awful things surround you. Your phone is your life. Your whole life is in there. You can’t imagine somebody has an app to find their phone. It’s never out of your hand. If you were to lose your phone, really it’d be like you lost track of your hand. Everything is there. You talk to your friends. You connect to your friends. You make plans about what’s going on. You find out what other people are doing. That phone is you. And you get up, and you look at it, and you and every other black freshman at Penn State have been invited to a lynching. A daily lynching. Are you coming, or are you not? Your phone wants to lynch you and everyone in your class who’s black. Who’s in this? Who did this? Who thinks this is funny? Are they going to kill me? Are they going to drag me out and kill me and everyone that’s black? Or are they just going to beat me up? I can’t even trust my phone, much less people. Terrible, awful rumors of war. Times of trouble. What do Christians do? What have you tried? What has been tried on you? Oh, it’s nothing. Oh, you’re being too sensitive. Are you sure it happened that way? Don’t have such a thin skin. Oh, it’s not as bad as that. What about someone who can’t go home? The person who said, well, you know, yeah, he hits me sometimes. But he doesn’t really mean it, and he always says he’s sorry. I mean, he doesn’t really, you know, really hurt me. Except that one, well, that couple times. But then he was really nice after. But then he started hitting my child. I can’t do that. I can’t go home. I’m not safe. My child’s not safe. I can’t let my child – risk my child. I’ve got to – what am I going to do? Where am I going to live? What’s going to become of me? Is he going to find me? Is he going to find my child? Aw, give him a chance. Aw, you’re being oversensitive. You know, there are some things you did wrong, too, you know. You shouldn’t be talking about him that way. You should be more Christian. That’s the next step, isn’t it, that religious thing of dismissing and gaslighting, you know, telling you your reality isn’t true, what you experience is not real. Gaslight, you know, when you get all, say, wait a minute, is that really true? Did I really get beat up? Did I really get threatened to be killed? Did I really worry about my daughter? Did I really get shamed on Facebook? The next thing, you know, the Christian stuff, it comes out, well – you’ve got to do your clutch your hands and say: “Well, you know it’s God’s will.” And there’s just a teeny, teeny, as appealing as that is to Presbyterians, is teeny, teeny bit step to go from that to saying that God is the author of evil and not of good. And I read from Genesis to Revelation that God created the world, and God created and looked at it and said it was good. God said it was good. Not you. Telling somebody that’s hurting, someone that’s grieving, someone that fears for their life, someone that wonders if their parents are going to be deported, someone that’s crying, someone that wonders if they have to go back in the closet, someone that wonders and says, “Oh, my God, I got married, and now they know I’m gay.” To tell them, oh, it’s God’s will. Well, you ought to give them a chance. Well, you got too upset. Well, well. That helps you. That doesn’t help them. And that’s all right. We all need that. We all need what we need. But be aware that when you talk about those kind of things, that they really should be behaving better, oh, they really should give them a chance, oh, this on that, you know, you really should look on the bright side of the death. That’s helping us. That’s not helping them. Be aware of that. Well, gee, Christy, what do we do? It’s in our Scripture. Sometimes it isn’t the first time when people are upset. You know, this lectionary was chosen years ago to come up today, way back 50 years ago, whatever the lectionary is, come up today, the Sunday after the election. Whoo, wars and catastrophe and terror and awful. Last week I looked at it, and I said, well, whoever wins, half the people are going to be, you know, happy; half are going to be unhappy; and half didn’t vote. Three halves. But it’s emotion, not math. You know, it’s going to be a difficult Sunday, and what do I have to tell the people? Well, it’s in the Scripture. Jesus tells us in the Scripture. Testify. You know, he’s kind of like me. When my children or the youth group or anybody that – the campers, and you know this, they say “Do I have to?” What do I tell them? You get to. You don’t have to do this. You get to do this. And so all these horrible, awful things are happening, and you say, “Jesus, give us a word. What do we do? Do we be fearful? Do we be scared? Do we fear? Do we fly? Do we get out of here? Do we run? Do we fight? What do we do, Jesus? Do we fear? Do we fight? Or do we flee?” And Jesus says, “Good news. You get to testify.” You have an opportunity, as the New RSV says, you’ve got an opportunity to testify ‘cause there is no time better to shine a light, when things are dark. You have an opportunity to shine, church. You have an opportunity to shine, Christian. You have an opportunity to testify. And you know it says, “Don’t worry about the words.” That’s okay because it even though you that testify is about talking, is about words…It’s not about words. That form of the verb “testify” in the Greek is not about words. It’s not about talking. It’s not about what am I going to say? It’s going to be what about what you do. Testify means an action, a thing, an example that testifies to what you believe and how you stand. So don’t worry about the words. Oh, I need that zinger for that guy at work. Oh, geez, oh, wait till I get to him. I’ve got this great one. Oh, yeah. It’s not about what we’re about. You have an opportunity to do what you believe in. I can’t go back home. She took a restraining order out on me. Can you believe it? She’s the one that hits me. She’s the one that threw the dishes at me. And I’ve got a restraining order against me because, you know, she’s a woman and I’m a man. I don’t know what to say but I know what I will do. I invite him to stay with me. I testify that we got a whole lower floor for him. It’s got a bathroom. It’s got a couch. Got cable. We even have WiFi. Come on in. You sort it out, you figure it out, you stay there as long as you want. Testify. I believe that homeless people should have a home. Testify. I’m volunteering at that warming shelter. I’m going to make sure that’s always staffed. Testify. I’m going to go and work at that med clinic because there’s going to be some people that don’t have insurance that’s going to need some help. Testify. I’m going to go to bed and broth. I’m going to give them food, and I’m going to serve it up because hungry people need to be fed. Testify. I’m going to talk to the kids about how the Internet is freaking forever, and don’t put anything anywhere if you don’t want it posted right up there on the bulletin board at Lake Tahoe Church. If you don’t want it up there, don’t put it online ‘cause I know someone that’ll put it up there, just to show you. Anybody can get it. We had a youth group. We had a dating seminar. And, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a dating seminar with young people. Good times. One of the things you find out is the boys have no clue. I hate to be sexist, but it’s true. The boys have no clue. Zero clue. So they need to hear some testimony. That’s where they need to be. And, you know, girls don’t need to be taught much. They know what’s going on, pretty much. The boys are clueless. What is the greatest fun thing to do, you start a list by asking: “Okay, boys, what do you do to protect yourself on a date? How do you stay safe when you’re on a date?” And the boys will just look at you with the biggest, glassiest blank stare you’ve ever seen. They have no clue what you’re talking about. The board stays empty. And Then you say, “All right, well, let’s ask the girls. Girls, what are you doing safe?” Then they start to testify, to instruct. You’ve gotta have a friend. You’ve gotta have your phone. You make sure you have a plan. You make sure you have money. And the on down the list. And then I said, “Boys? You see what it’s like for girls? Why are they so scared? Because the way you’re acting.” That stops. You stop. Locker room talk is gone forever. When you’re around, you don’t allow that. Not because, oh, they’re my woman, and I’ve got a sister. No because they are related or connected to you a man, but because they’re human, and we don’t talk about other humans that way. Testify. And you don’t act that way. You don’t scare women. You don’t take advantage of women. Testify. Lynching’s not funny if you’re the one being lynched. Persecution’s not funny if you’re the one being persecuted. Oh, I’ve had trouble. I tell you, friends and neighbors, it may feel the same, but it’s not. Losing privilege is not the same as facing persecution. Let me say that again. Losing privilege is not the same as facing persecution. Testify. Use your privilege to help those that don’t have any. Speak up for those that can’t speak up. You look at my Face- you look at my Twitter feed now, and you’ll see a picture from 2010 of me and two Muslim women, a mother and daughter that was with us in our church in the hijab. And I’m standing in front of the church sign, the big, massive church sign that the good folks brought there. And I had said “Ramadan Kareem” blessed month to our Muslim neighbors. Because they were getting beat up. Their places were getting burned. Their people were getting threats. And I said no. I stood up, and I took a picture of them with it, and it was in the paper. And even my brother in Japan read about it in his local news. Why is that so rare? Why is that news? Testify. Me and my friends already got a plan. They start making a Muslim registry, I’m signing up. I’m going to get other people to sign up. We’re all going to sign up. You come for them, you come for me. Testify. Testify. I care who you vote for. I’m nosy that way. But I care more about how you live. No matter who you vote for, if you did vote, we’re not just this election. Election day isn’t just the day that defines who we are as a people, as a Christian, as a church. Nothing is done in one day. You have this argument and that argument. Let’s go on. Here’s where we are. What are we going to do? We’re going to testify. We’re going to say we value every human here. We value every human not here. We’re going to work for what we believe. We’re not going to be afraid. We’re not going to fight. We’re not going to flee. We’re not going to gaslight people and say, oh, it’s not so bad to be you. Oh, no, no, no, it’s okay. You’re just too thick-skinned. Quick, quiet, could you quiet down? Your protest is bothering me. Hey, friends. Protest is supposed to be bothering some. That’s the whole point of a protest. Take note. Gee, Christy. You finally come back, and then you give us such a downer sermon. No wonder we didn’t get you as pastor, because it’s like down, down, down here. So what I did, I asked my friends for help. And this is what you can do, too. And I hope you’re a friend. I hope you’re a friend to all the folks that are in trouble, all the folks that are scared, all the folks that are upset, all the folks that are worried. I hope you’re a friend. I asked my friend, Sue Washburn. Sue Washburn met me on the Sunday after September 11, 2001. I had just started at Delmont Presbyterian Church as interim pastor there. And sure enough, I reflected, well, that’s strange. Why [indiscernible] – I got called back to church after being out five years. I go, well, that’s odd how did I ended up back in a church on September 1st. And then 11 days later, on 9/11, they needed a pastor. Boom. Terrorist attack. And Sue came up to me and goes, says, are you going to talk to the kids about September 11th, about terrorists? And I said, “Well, hello to you. I’m Christy. And, yeah, I’m going to talk to the kids about their freedoms.” “Okay, I’m not bringing my kids here.” And she took the kids out of church. Okay, Sue. So, but then she got to know me. And a year later, on the anniversary of September 11th, we put together a community communion service and invited the whole community in as in remembrance of that day. And for healing it, we did that. And she went on from that service to go to seminary and become a pastor. And now she’s a pastor at a church in Pennsylvania and also the editor of Presbyterians Today. So I take complete and total credit for all that she has done and accomplished. But I asked Sue to help me out here. This is from her editorial a couple months ago in the Presbyterians Today. Sue, there, is very creative, as I told you. And she’s got bubbles there for the sermon. Has absolutely to do with the quote. So if you’re trying to match them up, you know, just stop, it’s okay, they don’t go together. We look at the gaping holes between us and feel overwhelmed… Jesus’ life show us that reconciliation starts small, as a baby born in an empire - Rev. Sue Washburn Presbyterians Today Sept/Oct 2016 p. 4 But Sue is a very creative person. And she doesn’t perhaps look like what you think a pastor might look like. I don’t know what you think a pastor might look like, but maybe it’s not Sue. So Sue in times will tell people she is a pastor, and people would pretty much unload on her and say, “Well, I’m a Christian, but I don’t go to church.” And she usually hears about some kind of fight, or they change the hymnal, or they had an 8:00 o’clock service start up again. Who knows? Something. So Sue would say, just look at them with their – she is angelic face, completely blank, and just says, “I’m a ice skater.” And they don’t – people are nice. They, okay, I guess we’re talking about ice skating now. And then they said, oh, are you a figure skater, or competitive? They say something. And then she says, “Oh, I don’t skate. I never go on the ice. I never practice. I never – I don’t even have ice skates.” But I’m an ice skater. It’s not just one day. And it’s not about what we say. It’s what we do, what we testify by doing with our lives. And reconciliation, Sue says, is like that. It’s every day. We go to church to hear about how we can be better and how we can be reconciled to the world, whether it’s what color to paint the church, what time to have service, whether it’s to reconcile about whether or not we’re going to do same gender weddings in the church. Sometimes it’s little; sometimes it’s big. And we practice that in the world through the week, and we come back the next week, and we try to get better at living our life and being a better figure skater. We look at the gaping holes between us and feel overwhelmed. Jesus’s life shows that reconciliation starts small, as a baby born in an empire. Jesus shows us that everyday choices matter. Each time we choose to eat with someone who no one will eat with, each time we touch someone who no one wants to touch, each time we talk with someone who no one wants to hear, we can make the hole that keeps us apart a little smaller. Aren’t you glad I invited Sue? Isn’t she great? You’re great, too. No matter who you vote for, or whether you voted or not, you’re all great. And you have an opportunity to be greater, to be a light to those in darkness, to be a help and a heal to the hurting. To give shelter to the homeless. To give food to the hungry. To give hope to the hopeless. To give safety to those under persecution. That is what the church is about. No matter which way you went on last Tuesday. That’s what we’re about. So if someone says, “Oh, they shouldn’t be doing that,” when someone says, “Oh, you shouldn’t be doing that,” or “They shouldn’t be complaining or that,” don’t take the easy way out. Don’t flee from it by saying, “Well, it’s God’s will. We all got to get along.” Don’t fight by saying, “Well, you know that electoral college, we got more of a popular vote.” Don’t fight. You want to. I know you do. I do. Don’t flee. Don’t flee. Just because the Canada website for immigration crashed on election night. Stay here. Stay here. If you must move, please move to a swing state. You know who I’m talking to. Don’t fight. Don’t fear. Don’t flee. Testify. Testify. So when people look at Lake Tahoe Community Church, they’ll say, “Those people live their faith. Say what you want about their politics, but those people are God’s hand, God’s will on Earth.” Amen? Post differs from the recording with some repeats and speaking errors edited out. Transcription done by edigitaltranscription.com Recommended for fast, accurate, and patient transcriptions. Christy Ramsey. Some rights reserved. This work is licensed under aCreative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.

How would you like to know the LITTLE SECRET to doing HUGE, six-figure flips in a simple, predictable, HIGHLY REPEATABLE way? If four- and five-digit profits just aren’t big enough for you anymore, then you’re going to love today’s episode. I’m Carole Ellis. This is Episode 20.Seriously guys? Four- and five-digit profits aren’t enough anymore? Okay, okay, I get it. If you could make $100,000 or MORE every time you did a deal, you’d certainly have to do fewer of them, and I imagine we could all find great things to do with that time, like spending time with our loved ones or pursuing passions outside of real estate. But let’s face it: the majority of the deals you do in residential real estate are going to net you profits with four and five digits, not six or seven. If you want those bigger numbers, then you’re going to have to do something that today’s guest refers to as “becoming someone’s JOB.” I’ll explain what she means by that and how it can – and should – revolutionize the way you think about your involvement in real estate today.First, however, I’ve got some other HUGE news that has a much smaller price tag – just about three digits. According to the American Society of Landscape Architects – did you even KNOW there was such a society? That’s what I love about real estate – there is a society or data giant out there for EVERY TOPIC! Anyway, according to the ASLA, this spring’s homebuyer is loving the outdoors more than ever, and that means that adding a small upgrade to any home can, in effect, add the entire square footage of the yard TO YOUR LIVING SPACE! Want to know more? Head on over to the News & Networking section at www.REI.Today and check out the “Lesson Learned” section in our Must-Have Upgrade for 2016 report.Now, back to what I know has you drooling…those six-digit profits. To talk about buying TRULY BIG in real estate, I brought in a lady who knows the big business of real estate – and don’t get scared, but I’m going to go ahead and tell you these types of profits require investments with the word “commercial” in the title – inside and out. Her name is Sue Nelson, and when I asked her for a headline that encapsulated her real estate investing experience, she came up with this beauty: “Struggling art teacher turned real estate investor purchases 2,000 apartments so she can stay home with her toddler and infant children. If she can do it, so can you.” That’s a good summary of her bio in less than 30 words, but I’m going to give you just a little bit more. This commercial real estate dynamo’s name is Sue Nelson, and she started investing in commercial real estate when her daughter was born. Sue’s daughter had some serious health complications as a baby and, like any parent, Sue knew that she would have to do whatever it took to take care of that little girl (oh, and her 18-month-old at the time brother as well). Unlike most people, however, Sue thought much bigger than you might expect. While a lot of us might think “I need to learn to wholesale three-bedroom/two-bath houses,” Sue decided she’d start with a 104-unit apartment complex.Here’s why that made sense, and why Sue was successful in her own words from an exclusive Q&A Interview with Real Estate Investing Today:“I actually thought originally that I’d buy a three-family triplex,” Sue says, adding that this deal quickly turned into “a nightmare.” She explained that she quickly discovered that managing the small property was going to be very difficult because, in her words, “it was nobody’s job but mine!” Essentially, Sue discovered on her first foray into real estate investing that for her, the key was going to be investing SO BIG that someone ELSE’S LIVELIHOOD depended on her deals. Pretty gutsy, huh? But hey, it makes sense! So Sue starting thinking and looking for cash-flowing deals that were bigger – about 101 units bigger, to be exact. “An apartment complex is someone’s job,” she explained. “The manager, the maintenance crew, those people have to CARE about the property because if they don’t, then they don’t have a job anymore. So if a property is cash-flowing” (and I should note here that Sue has a unique cash-flow analyzer that helps her identify the right types of deals that matter in the right way to the people involved in that cash-flow process and to future buyers of those deals) “then I know that it’s a deal I can do whether I’m nearby or far away.”So Sue plugged this 104-unit apartment complex into her cash-flow analyzer and decided it was big enough to be important and that the cash-flow was such that she’d be able to find a buyer. She took the deal to her attorney to have some paperwork drawn up and the guy took one look and said hey, why don’t you just sell this thing to me and I’ll pay you $120,000 for it. And thus, Sue was hooked and her commercial real estate career was born. I’ll let her tell you about that part, because I couldn’t possibly say it any better.Sue said, “Oh my God. Well, that launched me, because I realized if someone would buy these deals from me, I could stop right there. That was actually five years of art teaching! So I closed it, and I just kept replicating the process.”Now, since that time, Sue has done more than just “replicate the process.” She’s been a commercial buying MACHINE, and she’s got a pretty great system down pat that has enabled her to, well, let me just give you a few more quick examples:*Help a student buy 242 units for $7 million without laying out any of his own money*Work with a stay-at-home grandmother to “Flip” an entire apartment complex for a fast $180,000*Close on a $2.3 MILLION CA PROPERTY WITHOUT TAKING OUT A LOAN.If those numbers are sounding “IMPORTANT” enough to you, then you’ll want to hear EVERYTHING Sue has to say, including the details on those and lots more deals that she’s done over the past decade. Can’t wait to hear more? Head on over to www.rei.today/IMPORTANT to get the full scoop right now. That’s www.rei.today/IMPORTANT, because IMPORTANT is our word of the day. Admit it: now you’re feeling like six-digit profits are the ONLY WAY TO GO, so head over to www.rei.today/IMPORTANT right now to take this IMPORTANT TRAINING right away.When you do that, you’ll also be able to GROW YOUR NETWORK by interacting with me and your fellow listeners to REI Today… so stop by to ask questions, make comments and network with other investors across the country in addition to having the chance to interact directly with Sue herself.REI Nation, thanks for listening in. Now, more than ever, please remember this:Your best investment is ALWAYS your own education. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hello Everyone Christmashanukwanzafestivus episode 7! Kinda like Chrismaween, but better. So Sue please please dont sue us Nightvale the perfect christmas gifts If its on the Internet its true Glen Stampy Dumbo Wolfe he resembles this comment …

Listen: Episode 23 Watch: Youtube Feed: RSS Notes Special Report – File Sharing Lawsuit Last Years File sharing Case Application Last July before Justice Kelly J in commercial court. BT, Eircom and other ISPs should provide Names and Addresses linked to I.P of file traders US Company – Media Sentry hired by IRMA to gather data Method of … Continue reading Technolotics #23 – So Sue Me →