2Bobs - with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

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Conversations on the art of creative entrepreneurship with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

David C. Baker and Blair Enns


    • May 21, 2025 LATEST EPISODE
    • every other week NEW EPISODES
    • 30m AVG DURATION
    • 216 EPISODES

    4.9 from 234 ratings Listeners of 2Bobs - with David C. Baker and Blair Enns that love the show mention: positioning, david c, agency, consulting, keen, firm, totally worth, expertise, management, studio, clients, design, creative, owners, marketing, entrepreneurs, apply, small, experts, business.


    Ivy Insights

    The 2Bobs podcast with David C. Baker and Blair Enns is a must-listen for anyone living the agency life. Their clear communication and engaging topics make this podcast both enjoyable and rewarding. As an agile studio, their insight has helped my business grow and become a better fit for our goals. The hosts know each other well and push each other's buttons, creating a dynamic and entertaining show. Overall, this podcast is a great resource for creative entrepreneurs and agency owners.

    One of the best aspects of this podcast is the wealth of knowledge shared by David and Blair. They have years of experience in the agency industry and offer valuable advice on pricing, positioning, expertise, and overall management of creative firms. They blend engaging topics, keen insights, and wit into one fantastic show. Each episode either highlights mistakes made in agencies or offers practical "how to" advice. The content is helpful not only in running a business but also in generating ideas to share with clients.

    In terms of drawbacks, there really isn't much to criticize about this podcast. Some listeners may not resonate with certain topics or may find that they agree more with one host than the other. However, the length of the episodes is perfect and David and Blair play off each other well.

    In conclusion, The 2Bobs podcast is a highly recommended listen for anyone in the creative agency industry. The hosts offer genuine wisdom, challenge assumptions, and deliver valuable insights in each episode. They don't take themselves too seriously but provide hard-won, well-researched advice that can make a noticeable shift in your bottom line. Whether you own an agency or run any B2B services firm, you will find immense value in this podcast.



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    Latest episodes from 2Bobs - with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

    Always Be Anchoring

    Play Episode Listen Later May 21, 2025 30:26


    Blair sees high price anchors everywhere—from buying a suit to ordering a burger. So what factors should creative firms keep in mind as they use anchoring in selling their service options? And when is the best time to present the anchor option within the sales conversation?   Links “Anchor High” by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

    What to Ask, Sign, and Share With a Potential Buyer

    Play Episode Listen Later May 7, 2025 23:54


    Following up on the recent episode on whether you should be considering that offer to sell your firm, David provides four questions to get answered, two documents to sign, and a short list of materials that can help you take the lead in early conversations with a buyer.   LINKS ”Should You Entertain That Acquisition Offer?”

    The Power of a Metaphor

    Play Episode Listen Later Apr 23, 2025 26:28


    The more unexpected the metaphor, the more information it carries. Blair has four less-obvious metaphors to give you access to entire playbooks in just four words when selling your expertise.   LINKS "The Power of a Metaphor" written by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

    metaphor blair enns links the power
    Should You Entertain That Acquisition Offer?

    Play Episode Listen Later Apr 9, 2025 24:39


    Ignoring any unexpected offers to buy your business that might come your way is not in your best interest. But neither is dating all opportunities in desperation. David has four things principals should consider, whether or not you are actively looking to sell your firm.   Links “Should You Entertain That Offer?” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com 2Bobs London Meet-up on Thursday 8 May, 2025 at 2pm

    When Your Clients Talk to Each Other

    Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2025 23:38


    Your clients are far more likely to talk to each other when you have vertical positioning. Blair has observed both good and bad things arising from this.   Links “How to Ask for Referrals” 2Bobs episode

    Facing an Existential Crisis?

    Play Episode Listen Later Mar 12, 2025 28:43


    As we are hearing about more firms that are closing during these challenging times, David offers some guidance to help cut through the confusion when our worst fears in our business become reality.   Links "Facing an Existential Crisis" article by David for punctuation.com Rory Sutherland's LinkedIn post David's LinkedIn post

    Who Should Set Prices?

    Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2025 41:01


    As Blair continues to encourage expert practice owners to price the client and not the service, he and David discuss the pros and cons of four levels of pricing authority they should be thinking about within their firm, instead of just assuming pricing responsibility automatically defaults to a specific role or job title. Links “Who Should Set Prices In Your Firm?” written by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com

    10 Reasons a Buyer Might Want Your Firm

    Play Episode Listen Later Feb 12, 2025 32:41


    David thinks principals should build their firms as if they were going to sell it while Blair's advice is to run it as if you'll never sell it. Being aware of options as your firm matures can give you the leverage you might need in negotiations.   Links “Ten Reasons Firms Are Bought” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

    To Standardize or Customize

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 29, 2025 35:31


    Through the process of writing his latest book, Blair's thinking has evolved on whether or not firms should resist the urge to productize their services as they work to creatively meet the unique needs of each client.

    Don't Bother Eating Your Veggies

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 15, 2025 24:56


    In Blair's experience, the most common reason a lead generation plan doesn't get executed is it doesn't recognize and leverage the strengths or motivations of the individuals executing.   LINKS "The Best Lead Generation Plan" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

    Adapting Hiring Strategies Over Time

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 2025 26:05


    David describes the differences in what kind of people principals should hire during the early stage of their creative firm's development when it's all about “what we can afford,” the middle stage when it's about “what we need,” and then the later days of an agency when it's about “what we can learn.”   LINKS “How Your Hiring Strategies Change” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com “The Problem of Standards” by David Maister

    The Barbell of Pricing Risk

    Play Episode Listen Later Dec 18, 2024 26:14


    Blair borrows a concept from finance and fitness to help creative agencies find the balance between low risk and high risk pricing strategies.

    Selling Your Professional Services Firm

    Play Episode Listen Later Dec 4, 2024 41:23


    Blair interviews David about his new book, Selling Your Professional Services Firm: A Primer.   LINKS Buy a copy of David's new book from him directly. Buy David's new book and audiobook on Amazon.

    Questions, Not Answers

    Play Episode Listen Later Nov 20, 2024 24:04


    Blair interviews David on his recent article about the idea that expertise does involve supplying answers, eventually, but mainly expertise is about asking the right questions, first, and then offering a few answers after the truth surfaces.   Links “Expertise Is Mainly About Asking Great Questions” by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

    Assume an Advantaged Player

    Play Episode Listen Later Nov 6, 2024 22:25


    Blair shares how to determine whether or not we are the advantaged player the “polite battle for control” within the game of sales, and how we can get the odds of winning the sale to be more in our favor.   Links “Assume an Advantaged Player” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

    The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise

    Play Episode Listen Later Oct 23, 2024 30:34


    David interviews Blair about his new book, which lays out his proven framework B2B service providers can use to increase closing ratios and average proposal values.   Links Order The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns

    200th Episode Special

    Play Episode Listen Later Oct 9, 2024 30:21


    Blair and David reminisce about their podcasting journey since Blair first pitched the 2Bobs idea to David back in 2016, sharing what they've learned along the way, and what they might like to try with the podcast in the future.

    200th 2bobs
    How Account Managers Deliver Strategy

    Play Episode Listen Later Sep 25, 2024 23:46


    David unpacks six principles that can help creative firms benefit from delivering strategic guidance through their account managers.   LINKS "Account Managers and Strategy" by David C. Baker at punctuation.com

    How to Avoid Commodifying Your Offering

    Play Episode Listen Later Sep 11, 2024 29:47


    Blair sees four common behaviors when business owners are looking to get deals moving in times of economic decline, stagnation, or uncertainty that end up doing long term harm to their positioning and pricing.   LINKS "Four Ways to Commodify Your Offering" by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com "Phase Your Client Engagements" 2Bobs episode

    Are Email Newsletter Even Viable Anymore?

    Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2024 29:37


    Every few years we're told that we need to move on from using email newsletters as a part of our marketing platform. And David says that advice has always been wrong.   Links David's article on Punctuation.com (subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page) “Email is the Most Consistent, Reliable Marketing Channel on the Web and I Can Prove It” by Rand Fishkin

    How to Make Horizontal Positioning Work

    Play Episode Listen Later Aug 14, 2024 23:25


    David provides some clear examples of what is required for a firm to be successful at offering one service for many different verticals.   Links “Strengthening a Weak Horizontal Positioning” by David C. Baker on punctuation.com

    Are You Fishing in the Right Pond?

    Play Episode Listen Later Jul 31, 2024 32:10


    Given these uncertain economic times we are in right now, Blair is asking if some creative firms might need to rethink the market they serve, looking at whether their positioning might be too broad, too narrow, or just wrong.   LINKS "The Target Is Not the Market" by Blair Enns on winwithoutpitching.com

    Leading in a Chaotic World

    Play Episode Listen Later Jul 17, 2024 28:51


    David shares his decision-making framework that will help agency principals make better decisions during chaotic times like these.   LINKS “Leading in a Chaotic World” article by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

    Creating a Premium Pricing Culture

    Play Episode Listen Later Jul 3, 2024 31:05


    Pricing is a prison cell of our own making. And it's cultural. Blair has come up with a series of prompts as a creative exercise to help us all move into a realm of higher pricing.   Links “Creating a Culture of Premium Pricing” by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com “Have we Hit Peak Strategy?” “Be the Client You Want to See in the World”

    Building a Scalable Sales Strategy

    Play Episode Listen Later Jun 19, 2024 26:48


    David wants agency principals to develop new business plans which delivers more new leads with less labor so their organizations can have more controllable growth, as well as increasing their likelihood for a successful exit when that time comes.   Links 2Bobs episode: “The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation” NY Times article: “How a Self-Published Book Broke ‘All the Rules' and Became a Best Seller”

    Have We Hit Peak Strategy?

    Play Episode Listen Later Jun 5, 2024 24:01


    Blair thinks too many design firms and other service providers are trying too hard to raise prices by presenting themselves as more “strategic.” Both he and David see these agencies losing more and more work to competitors moving to off-shore teams and AI centered services.   Links Blair's “What Is Strategy?” episode of the Ditching Hourly podcast with Jonathan Stark

    What Tech Bros Get Right...and Wrong

    Play Episode Listen Later May 22, 2024 21:21


    David definitely doesn't want anyone to be like tech bros, but he has recognized a few things creative agencies might be able to learn from them.

    Turning Your Delivery Team Into a Sales Team

    Play Episode Listen Later May 8, 2024 30:29


    Blair has five steps creative agency leaders can take to turn their account managers, project managers, developers, engineers, and advisors into a source of instant scale to their sales efforts.    LINKS “Turning Your Delivery Team Into a Sales Team” article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com

    Advising Clients Ethically

    Play Episode Listen Later Apr 24, 2024 24:15


    Whether you call yourself an advisor or consultant (or not), David has seven core ethical principles that should govern advisory work.   LINKS "Advising Clients Ethically" article on Punctuation.com

    Just Stop Talking

    Play Episode Listen Later Apr 10, 2024 31:12


    The fact that sales people tend to talk too much is nothing new, but Blair has observed in recent client work just how profound of an effect this pervasive problem has on sales outcomes.   Links “How and When to Talk About Your Firm” “Replacing Presentations With Conversations”

    Working With a Maverick

    Play Episode Listen Later Mar 27, 2024 23:12


    When it comes to qualifications for ideal clients, David doesn't hear anyone talking about how agencies can benefit when the person across the table is someone who presses boundaries and ethically skirts the rules within their own organization.

    The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson

    Play Episode Listen Later Mar 13, 2024 23:51


    As Blair is finishing his new book that drops later this year, he comes to the realization that pretty much everything he does comes down to the fundamental issue that experts think they need to show up as a different person during the sale: pitching, persuading, and convincing instead of as the leader their prospective clients need them to be.   LINKS "The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson" article by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com "Ditch the (Sales) Script"

    Maximizing Pro Bono Opportunities

    Play Episode Listen Later Feb 28, 2024 19:23


    While discussing eight ways creative firms can do pro bono work better based on an article David wrote recently, both he and Blair discover a couple new profound insights together.   LINKS “Maximizing Your Pro-Bono Contributions” by David C. Baker at Punctuation.com Left-handed Mango Chutney

    Attending the Way

    Play Episode Listen Later Feb 14, 2024 21:51


    Blair recognizes how a Confucius quote is really bad business advice, but is still moved by how a highly principled creative firm in New Zealand continues to thrive by prioritizing their creative practices and client fit over new business strategy.   LINKS "Attending the Way" article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com AltGroup.net

    A 7-part Theory of Principal Compensation

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 31, 2024 23:13


    David frequently gets hired to help resolve issues at firms between multiple principles when it comes to who does what and how much each should get paid, so he's come up with a 7-point framework he can use in each unique scenario.

    The Time Value of Knowledge

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2024 29:20


    David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he takes a lesson from investing with compound interest to understand the increasing returns we can receive from our relentless pursuit of knowledge over time.   Links “The Time Value of Knowledge” article on WinWithoutPitching.com

    Revisiting Remote Work

    Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2024 27:55


    David looks at the current data and weighs all the pros and cons of continuing to have staff who work from home in our post-pandemic economy, which makes Blair wonder if he would even survive if he was starting out in his profession today.   Links “The Pros/Cons of Remote Work”

    Ditch the (Sales) Script

    Play Episode Listen Later Dec 20, 2023 24:30


    Blair sees too many creative firms talking at prospective clients using sales scripts instead of having a series of wide ranging conversations on their unique issues and objectives that set the tone for the potential long-term engagement.   Links “Ten Set Pieces” “Mastering the Value Conversation”

    Constrained by Artificial Boundaries

    Play Episode Listen Later Dec 6, 2023 24:19


    Blair's latest obsession is bounded rationality, in which he sees too many creative firms failing to make “rational” decisions because they choose to bind their businesses with outdated and overly-constraining ideals like the 80/20 principle.   Links “The Great Convergence is Upon Us” by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching Award-winning “Unapologetically Human” ad campaign by Kruger and BHLA Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services to Scalable Products by Eisha Tierney Armstrong

    A Theory of Leisure

    Play Episode Listen Later Nov 22, 2023 26:12


    David shares his thoughts on some bad advice he hears involving the focus on pursuing personal passions in business.

    The Death Throes of the Pitch

    Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2023 28:16


    Blair weighs in on this year's Forrester report, which shows the ridiculous amount of money agencies have been wasting on pitches.   LINKS "Are These the Last Days of the Pitch?" by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching "A New Forrester Report Urges Brands and Agencies to 'Ditch the Pitch'" by Olivia Morley for AdWeek published on 4 A's  

    How Much Should You Spend on Your Own Marketing?

    Play Episode Listen Later Oct 25, 2023 29:44


    David addresses another frequently asked question, looking at what creative firms should budget in terms of both money and time for their website, SaaS/automation, PR, content creation, and social media.

    The Conflicting Ethics of Selling and Negotiating

    Play Episode Listen Later Oct 11, 2023 22:57


    Blair identifies the differences between the ethics of selling expertise and the three schools of bargaining ethics, and what happens when we don't adapt our bargaining approach to match our opponents in the game of negotiation.   Links “The Conflicting Ethics of Selling & Negotiating” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

    Doing Employee Orientation Right

    Play Episode Listen Later Sep 27, 2023 23:02


    In an era of rapid turnover and remote working arrangements, developing a structured onboarding process for new staff is more important than ever. David has a checklist to help agencies get their new employees up to speed as quickly as possible.

    The War on Payment Terms

    Play Episode Listen Later Sep 13, 2023 32:54


    Blair sees non-standard payment terms as a two-sided issue, where agencies should be creatively leveraging terms more to their own benefit as opposed to just defending themselves against procurement departments who impose onerous terms.   LINKS "Payment Terms, On Your Terms"

    What Your Team Wants From You

    Play Episode Listen Later Aug 30, 2023 31:51


    While analyzing data from his Total Business Reset surveys, David has noticed five significant trends which principals should be aware of to run their firms more effectively, as well as one thing your team wishes you'd stop doing.

    How to Ask for Referrals

    Play Episode Listen Later Aug 16, 2023 27:06


    As a follow-up to the discussion in the previous episode, Blair has some criteria for firms that would beneift from prioritizing and codifying an effective referral strategy as a way to gain new business.   LINKS “The Best Referral Machine I Have Ever Seen”

    How to Make Referrals

    Play Episode Listen Later Aug 2, 2023 26:43


    In part one of a two-part discussion about developing a business referral strategy, Blair is surprised to hear that David wants to cover how and why we can get better at giving away business, before talking about how to get more referrals.

    Do You Even Need New Business People?

    Play Episode Listen Later Jul 19, 2023 23:36


    Blair runs through one of his constraint driven exercises with David by having us imagine running our business with nobody dedicated to the various functions under the banner of new business.

    Predictive Traits of Successful Owners

    Play Episode Listen Later Jul 5, 2023 24:22


    David has observed six common characteristics of agency principals that can affect whether or not their business succeeds.

    Six Barriers to New Business Success

    Play Episode Listen Later Jun 21, 2023 28:02


    Even after understanding and trying to adopt the philosophies from Win Without Pitching, Blair sees many creative firms struggling to increase profit because of these six obstacles involving their people and processes.   Links Mastering the Value Conversation The Complexities of Commission Culture Innoficiency in Your Agency The Enemy Within The Complex Battle for Margin Debriefing After a New Business Call Is Your Firm Addicted to New Business? Who's Going to Own This?

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