2Bobs - with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

Instead of beginning the relationship with a prospective client by presenting a deck on why your agency is so amazing and why you should be invited to pitch, Blair encourages us to have the “Probative Conversation” from his Four Conversations sales model.   LINKS "There Is No Credentials Meeting" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise" 2Bobs episode The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise book by Blair Enns

When it comes to positioning, David is still seeing creative firms failing to answer three essential questions in the proper sequence: category, specialization, and then secondary differentiators (or qualifying characteristics).

Blair sees high price anchors everywhere—from buying a suit to ordering a burger. So what factors should creative firms keep in mind as they use anchoring in selling their service options? And when is the best time to present the anchor option within the sales conversation?   Links “Anchor High” by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Following up on the recent episode on whether you should be considering that offer to sell your firm, David provides four questions to get answered, two documents to sign, and a short list of materials that can help you take the lead in early conversations with a buyer.   LINKS ”Should You Entertain That Acquisition Offer?”

The more unexpected the metaphor, the more information it carries. Blair has four less-obvious metaphors to give you access to entire playbooks in just four words when selling your expertise.   LINKS "The Power of a Metaphor" written by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Ignoring any unexpected offers to buy your business that might come your way is not in your best interest. But neither is dating all opportunities in desperation. David has four things principals should consider, whether or not you are actively looking to sell your firm.   Links “Should You Entertain That Offer?” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com 2Bobs London Meet-up on Thursday 8 May, 2025 at 2pm

Your clients are far more likely to talk to each other when you have vertical positioning. Blair has observed both good and bad things arising from this.   Links “How to Ask for Referrals” 2Bobs episode

As we are hearing about more firms that are closing during these challenging times, David offers some guidance to help cut through the confusion when our worst fears in our business become reality.   Links "Facing an Existential Crisis" article by David for punctuation.com Rory Sutherland's LinkedIn post David's LinkedIn post

As Blair continues to encourage expert practice owners to price the client and not the service, he and David discuss the pros and cons of four levels of pricing authority they should be thinking about within their firm, instead of just assuming pricing responsibility automatically defaults to a specific role or job title. Links “Who Should Set Prices In Your Firm?” written by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com

David thinks principals should build their firms as if they were going to sell it while Blair's advice is to run it as if you'll never sell it. Being aware of options as your firm matures can give you the leverage you might need in negotiations.   Links “Ten Reasons Firms Are Bought” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Through the process of writing his latest book, Blair's thinking has evolved on whether or not firms should resist the urge to productize their services as they work to creatively meet the unique needs of each client.

In Blair's experience, the most common reason a lead generation plan doesn't get executed is it doesn't recognize and leverage the strengths or motivations of the individuals executing.   LINKS "The Best Lead Generation Plan" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

David describes the differences in what kind of people principals should hire during the early stage of their creative firm's development when it's all about “what we can afford,” the middle stage when it's about “what we need,” and then the later days of an agency when it's about “what we can learn.”   LINKS “How Your Hiring Strategies Change” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com “The Problem of Standards” by David Maister

Blair borrows a concept from finance and fitness to help creative agencies find the balance between low risk and high risk pricing strategies.

Blair interviews David about his new book, Selling Your Professional Services Firm: A Primer.   LINKS Buy a copy of David's new book from him directly. Buy David's new book and audiobook on Amazon.

Blair interviews David on his recent article about the idea that expertise does involve supplying answers, eventually, but mainly expertise is about asking the right questions, first, and then offering a few answers after the truth surfaces.   Links “Expertise Is Mainly About Asking Great Questions” by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

Blair shares how to determine whether or not we are the advantaged player the “polite battle for control” within the game of sales, and how we can get the odds of winning the sale to be more in our favor.   Links “Assume an Advantaged Player” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

David interviews Blair about his new book, which lays out his proven framework B2B service providers can use to increase closing ratios and average proposal values.   Links Order The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns

Blair and David reminisce about their podcasting journey since Blair first pitched the 2Bobs idea to David back in 2016, sharing what they've learned along the way, and what they might like to try with the podcast in the future.

David unpacks six principles that can help creative firms benefit from delivering strategic guidance through their account managers.   LINKS "Account Managers and Strategy" by David C. Baker at punctuation.com

Blair sees four common behaviors when business owners are looking to get deals moving in times of economic decline, stagnation, or uncertainty that end up doing long term harm to their positioning and pricing.   LINKS "Four Ways to Commodify Your Offering" by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com "Phase Your Client Engagements" 2Bobs episode

Every few years we're told that we need to move on from using email newsletters as a part of our marketing platform. And David says that advice has always been wrong.   Links David's article on Punctuation.com (subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page) “Email is the Most Consistent, Reliable Marketing Channel on the Web and I Can Prove It” by Rand Fishkin

David provides some clear examples of what is required for a firm to be successful at offering one service for many different verticals.   Links “Strengthening a Weak Horizontal Positioning” by David C. Baker on punctuation.com

Given these uncertain economic times we are in right now, Blair is asking if some creative firms might need to rethink the market they serve, looking at whether their positioning might be too broad, too narrow, or just wrong.   LINKS "The Target Is Not the Market" by Blair Enns on winwithoutpitching.com

David shares his decision-making framework that will help agency principals make better decisions during chaotic times like these.   LINKS “Leading in a Chaotic World” article by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

Pricing is a prison cell of our own making. And it's cultural. Blair has come up with a series of prompts as a creative exercise to help us all move into a realm of higher pricing.   Links “Creating a Culture of Premium Pricing” by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com “Have we Hit Peak Strategy?” “Be the Client You Want to See in the World”

David wants agency principals to develop new business plans which delivers more new leads with less labor so their organizations can have more controllable growth, as well as increasing their likelihood for a successful exit when that time comes.   Links 2Bobs episode: “The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation” NY Times article: “How a Self-Published Book Broke ‘All the Rules' and Became a Best Seller”

Blair thinks too many design firms and other service providers are trying too hard to raise prices by presenting themselves as more “strategic.” Both he and David see these agencies losing more and more work to competitors moving to off-shore teams and AI centered services.   Links Blair's “What Is Strategy?” episode of the Ditching Hourly podcast with Jonathan Stark

David definitely doesn't want anyone to be like tech bros, but he has recognized a few things creative agencies might be able to learn from them.

Blair has five steps creative agency leaders can take to turn their account managers, project managers, developers, engineers, and advisors into a source of instant scale to their sales efforts.    LINKS “Turning Your Delivery Team Into a Sales Team” article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com

Whether you call yourself an advisor or consultant (or not), David has seven core ethical principles that should govern advisory work.   LINKS "Advising Clients Ethically" article on Punctuation.com

The fact that sales people tend to talk too much is nothing new, but Blair has observed in recent client work just how profound of an effect this pervasive problem has on sales outcomes.   Links “How and When to Talk About Your Firm” “Replacing Presentations With Conversations”

When it comes to qualifications for ideal clients, David doesn't hear anyone talking about how agencies can benefit when the person across the table is someone who presses boundaries and ethically skirts the rules within their own organization.

As Blair is finishing his new book that drops later this year, he comes to the realization that pretty much everything he does comes down to the fundamental issue that experts think they need to show up as a different person during the sale: pitching, persuading, and convincing instead of as the leader their prospective clients need them to be.   LINKS "The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson" article by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com "Ditch the (Sales) Script"

While discussing eight ways creative firms can do pro bono work better based on an article David wrote recently, both he and Blair discover a couple new profound insights together.   LINKS “Maximizing Your Pro-Bono Contributions” by David C. Baker at Punctuation.com Left-handed Mango Chutney

Blair recognizes how a Confucius quote is really bad business advice, but is still moved by how a highly principled creative firm in New Zealand continues to thrive by prioritizing their creative practices and client fit over new business strategy.   LINKS "Attending the Way" article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com AltGroup.net

David frequently gets hired to help resolve issues at firms between multiple principles when it comes to who does what and how much each should get paid, so he's come up with a 7-point framework he can use in each unique scenario.

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he takes a lesson from investing with compound interest to understand the increasing returns we can receive from our relentless pursuit of knowledge over time.   Links “The Time Value of Knowledge” article on WinWithoutPitching.com

David looks at the current data and weighs all the pros and cons of continuing to have staff who work from home in our post-pandemic economy, which makes Blair wonder if he would even survive if he was starting out in his profession today.   Links “The Pros/Cons of Remote Work”

Blair sees too many creative firms talking at prospective clients using sales scripts instead of having a series of wide ranging conversations on their unique issues and objectives that set the tone for the potential long-term engagement.   Links “Ten Set Pieces” “Mastering the Value Conversation”

Blair's latest obsession is bounded rationality, in which he sees too many creative firms failing to make “rational” decisions because they choose to bind their businesses with outdated and overly-constraining ideals like the 80/20 principle.   Links “The Great Convergence is Upon Us” by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching Award-winning “Unapologetically Human” ad campaign by Kruger and BHLA Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services to Scalable Products by Eisha Tierney Armstrong

David shares his thoughts on some bad advice he hears involving the focus on pursuing personal passions in business.

Blair weighs in on this year's Forrester report, which shows the ridiculous amount of money agencies have been wasting on pitches.   LINKS "Are These the Last Days of the Pitch?" by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching "A New Forrester Report Urges Brands and Agencies to 'Ditch the Pitch'" by Olivia Morley for AdWeek published on 4 A's  

David addresses another frequently asked question, looking at what creative firms should budget in terms of both money and time for their website, SaaS/automation, PR, content creation, and social media.

Blair identifies the differences between the ethics of selling expertise and the three schools of bargaining ethics, and what happens when we don't adapt our bargaining approach to match our opponents in the game of negotiation.   Links “The Conflicting Ethics of Selling & Negotiating” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

In an era of rapid turnover and remote working arrangements, developing a structured onboarding process for new staff is more important than ever. David has a checklist to help agencies get their new employees up to speed as quickly as possible.

Blair sees non-standard payment terms as a two-sided issue, where agencies should be creatively leveraging terms more to their own benefit as opposed to just defending themselves against procurement departments who impose onerous terms.   LINKS "Payment Terms, On Your Terms"

While analyzing data from his Total Business Reset surveys, David has noticed five significant trends which principals should be aware of to run their firms more effectively, as well as one thing your team wishes you'd stop doing.

As a follow-up to the discussion in the previous episode, Blair has some criteria for firms that would beneift from prioritizing and codifying an effective referral strategy as a way to gain new business.   LINKS “The Best Referral Machine I Have Ever Seen”

In part one of a two-part discussion about developing a business referral strategy, Blair is surprised to hear that David wants to cover how and why we can get better at giving away business, before talking about how to get more referrals.

Blair runs through one of his constraint driven exercises with David by having us imagine running our business with nobody dedicated to the various functions under the banner of new business.