Podcasts about david it

As the property management industry continues to evolve, it's important to stay up to date on the latest innovations in technology. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David Normand from Vendoroo to talk about AI's role in the future of property management. You'll Learn [01:29] The AI Revolution [08:47] The Importance of Empathy and Human Touch [22:21] Decreasing the Cost of Maintenance Coordination [32:29] New Features Coming to Vendoroo Quotables “As any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best.” “If you're not reading articles and studying up on this, I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly.” “Empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better.” “Empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] David: If you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:00:14] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware. [00:00:18] Jason: All right. Welcome property management entrepreneurs to the DoorGrow Show or the Property Management Growth podcast. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive group coaching mastermind for residential property management entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for over a decade and a half. [00:00:39] Jason: I've brought innovative strategies and optimizations to the property management industry. I have spoken to thousands of property management companies. I've coached over 600 businesses. I've rebranded over 300 companies like Bar Rescue for property managers, cleaning up their businesses, and we would love to help coach you and support you and your growth. [00:01:01] Jason: We have innovative strategies for building out growth engines, for building out your operational challenges, for helping you figure out how to get to the next level in your business and one of the cool tools that I'm excited to showcase today with my guest here, David Norman, is Vendoroo. We've had you on the show before. [00:01:19] Jason: Welcome back David.  [00:01:20] David: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It felt like years ago, it was only about, I think eight months ago since we did this, so much has changed over the time, so it's great to be back. Yeah, it's great to be back.  [00:01:29] Jason: Good to have you. I know you're in the middle of this AI revolution, which AI is just innovating and changing so rapidly. It probably does feel like years ago, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been crazy. You guys have made a lot of changes too, so, you even changed your brand name from the last time we had you on the show. Yeah. Which was I think Tulu. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah. So why don't you get us caught up on what's going on 'cause, you know, there's been a lot.  [00:01:55] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you first of all for having me here today, Jason, and from the entire Vendoroo group of us, which, you know, the team has grown 10 x over the past eight months, which has been awesome. And I just also wanted to start in thanking everybody from what we call our client partners who have jumped in into this great unknown that is AI and is going to be like, how is this going to work in our industry? And so that's really what we've been focusing on the past eight months. You know, it's been a unbelievable journey of both failures, successes learnings and insights. And ultimately we're getting excited here at the NARPM broker owner which is in Denver to unveil Vendoroo. Like this is the coming out party. And so we're super excited if you're going to be there. We have a massive booth that we have set up that we have the ai alliance with other people that are working in the AI space, and I really hope that you guys come over and check it out. I promise this. [00:02:53] David: You'll never see a booth or a display like we have set up. At the NARPM broker owner. So.  [00:02:58] Jason: Now I want to go attend it. Yeah. Just so I can see your booth.  [00:03:01] David: So, let me put it this way. You may see the robot from the Jetsons walking around the booth walking around the NARPM broker owner, so, okay. [00:03:07] David: Yeah. Rosie? Yeah. You may see something like that. So she'll be vacuuming with her apron? Yeah. She'll be doing a little social engagement. It'll be cool. So, okay. Okay.  [00:03:17] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, so catch us up on what, like, let's get into the kind of the background and the overview for people that have never heard about Vendoroo and what you guys do and how you got into this. [00:03:29] Jason: Yeah. Give people kind of the backstory. Yeah.  [00:03:31] David: Yeah. Thank you for that. So really the backstory is that, you know, we know of this AI economy that's coming, right? And there was a few of us, you know, I've been in this industry for 18 years. You know, I've managed you know, portfolios of 40,000 doors. [00:03:47] David: I've managed them for governments. You know, I started off with our own property management. Much like you guys. We started off with 80 doors. We grew to 550 doors in four years. So it was exciting to know that technology that was coming that promised duplication because, you know, as any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best, right. [00:04:05] David: And so what we decided to do is to come together and say, Hey, if AI's coming, there's two things that we need to figure out. Number one is how is this going to help us show value in this new industry to this new generation of property owners that is here, that is coming, that has been raised in the technology world too, right? [00:04:25] David: And two, can it actually duplicate our efforts? Can it actually be an employee for us? Right? And I don't care what people are promising about ai, you don't know until you get into what we call like, you know, get into the weeds, you got to get into the trenches. And so that's what we did, right? We went out and we were the guys that grabbed the torch and we said, we are going to take all the risk. [00:04:46] David: We are going to jump into the mix. We're going to ask people to jump onto the bandwagon with us and we're going to figure this out. And oh my gosh, what an unbelievable eight months it has been in learning and insights. And I can't wait to get into all the things that we've learned about the property management industry. [00:05:01] David: But that's really what we've been focusing on here the past eight months, right? So we started off with well hey, can the AI assist the va? Can it turn them into a super va? Is that what it's going to be? And, you know, some people were like, yay. And some people were like nay, you know? And so, and you know, because that human failure still was there, right? [00:05:21] David: And you know, what happens if they left? There was that inconsistency. And then it was like, all right, well what can the AI own? Right? What can it do? What can it perfect? And you know, can AI actually be the last employee that I ever hire? Right. That's really, that's a really cool thing to do. [00:05:39] David: But the property managing community had some really specific demands that they said that if this is going to be the last employee that I've had, it has to do this. And that's what I'm excited about our new technology 'cause it's doing those things. You know? [00:05:52] Jason: Yeah. And now you guys have made some big moves. I know, like I've, I have clients that we've sent over to you and they've shared some incredible stories. Like one client, I think he had 154 units or something like under management, and he said in the first day you're of turning on Vendoroo, like it closed out like 80 something work orders. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah, like, it was crazy. Another client, they had a little more doors. They said it was like 50 something work orders were closed out in the first day of turning it on. And so, I mean, you're creating some dramatic stuff. Like this is a very different thing than what people are used to in maintenance. [00:06:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. And really what the exciting part about this, Jason, is that maintenance is actually really easy. And I know people laugh when I say that it's managing communications that is extremely difficult. Okay. Okay. Right, because you have, you know what AI told us about our industry over the last eight months is when we dove in with it and it took a step back and it said, whoa, you guys don't have a data problem here. [00:06:51] David: You guys have a emotion problem here. There's very specific categories of emotion that are in this space, right? Like, how do you build a technology that senses something? And I know this relates with property managers, 'cause I know this for myself. A property manager can walk into their office, sit down at their desk, and their spidey senses go off and they know something's wrong. [00:07:15] David: There's no screen that's telling them anything. There's no spreadsheet. They know something's off. Right. And so the AI is like, well, the statuses really don't matter that much to me based upon the feedback that I'm seeing from the property managers. Because the status and the communication all seem to be in order, but there's a disruption somewhere. [00:07:35] David: So I need to know about people's emotions. I need to understand about is the resident happy? Does the owner feel supported? Is the vendor being directed? And does the property manager believe that I can own the outcome for this? And it was really cool to start seeing its learning and understanding and picking up on these cues where, you know, people say that this is a data-driven industry. [00:07:55] David: It's really in an emotion driven industry.  [00:07:57] Jason: Oh yeah. It's a relationship and emotion industry for sure. Yeah. Yeah, big time.  [00:08:01] David: And it's really cool to see, and it's really started happening over this past last 60 days, the amount of residents, I was actually just looking at one before I jumped on here, that are like thanking the system, right? [00:08:15] David: Imagine that, like think of all of us that actually worked with the chat bot at like Verizon. I've never thanked that chatbot at Verizon for being their customer service. Right.  [00:08:25] Jason: And how do I get a representative? Representative. Representative!  [00:08:28] David: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Versus you seeing people, you know, seeing individuals saying to the, you know, saying to the Vendoroo maintenance coordinator, Hey, I really appreciate feeling supported and how fast you acted because you know, there's empathy that's inside of its law and learning. So I don't want to get too much into the details on there. But yeah, these are some of the exciting things that we're working on.  [00:08:47] Jason: I mean, empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better. [00:08:52] David: Yeah,  [00:08:52] Jason: I mean they, they've done studies. Teams, even in working in warehouses, are more productive if the team has a higher level of empathy. Yeah. And doctors perform better. Yeah. If there's a higher level of empathy, there's less malpractice suits, like empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient. [00:09:10] Jason: I coach clients to add that in during sales. Yeah. 'cause their close rate goes up dramatically. Yeah. Right. So yeah. So leveraging and like getting the AI to actually be empathetic in its communication. Yeah. When that's probably not a natural skill for a lot of maintenance coordinators to be empathetic. [00:09:26] David: It's not, it's not a natural skill for a lot of people in the maintenance industry. Right? Yes. Especially when you talk about burnout. People begin developing views of the rental community, right? Like, oh my gosh, they're calling again, and that empathy meter goes lower and lower and lower. [00:09:41] David: Yeah. As people have been in the industry longer. But isn't it great that you have an employee now that knows that, yeah, it's my duty, rain or shine, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year to always operate at the highest level of empathy? I never have a bad day. I never take a day off. [00:09:57] David: I'm never upset. I'm never short with somebody on the phone, never tired, never like, oh my gosh, Susan is calling me again. I'm going to let the phone just ring because I'm annoyed of talking to her. And it just is constantly hitting that same level of standard. And this is what's exciting to me, is that there are people that that have played around with this and have been a part of what I call the pain phase, right? [00:10:20] David: The pain phase is that understanding the way that agentic AI works, right? It's input in output. Input, output, right? The more that you're putting into it, the better the results are that you're going to get out of it, okay? Right. It's just like training an employee. So over the last eight months, what we've seen is that the community has trained this to be the level of a person that has now been working in the industry for five years. [00:10:46] David: In eight months. It's got five years of learning in eight months. Okay. Wow. In the next six to 12 months, we're probably looking at somebody that has 10 to 15 years understanding in the next six to 12 months and understand the level of type of tasks that it can do, especially getting into estimates and getting some other work. [00:11:04] David: And again, just you know, having empathy in my own life towards the people that jumped in that are like, what is this all about? Like, how does AI fail? Like, you know, there's still people that are involved and it was like this big like momentous train of like, you know, all these people were jumping on and giving ideas and people are in the loop and now it's weeding everything out and the AI stepping in and saying. [00:11:27] David: Hey, I appreciate all the input that you've given me. Thank you for all your effort. I'm now ready to step up to the plate and to own the outcome. Right. And that's what we're seeing at the NARPM show that's coming out. There's five AI tools. There's a master agent, five AI tools. And you know, I'll give you a couple of pieces here that, you know, we had feedback from our property managers like number one across the board. [00:11:50] David: A property manager said, if I'm hiring AI as my last employee, that has to work in my system. Yeah. Okay. Right. Like I don't want another, I don't want another technology. Yeah.  [00:11:59] Jason: I don't want a new system I got to get every vendor to use or a new system I got to get my team to use or figure out. We don't need another tool to make our lives more difficult. [00:12:08] Jason: No. They've got to use our stuff.  [00:12:09] David: They got to use, we have our existing stack. Yeah. So now the AI is fully integrated into all the most common PMS systems. You know, you have a cool chrome extension that you can download and there's a little yellow kangaroo right right there. And it's actually reading the work order that you're working on, and you can literally just ask it a question now and just being like, Hey, did anybody express frustration or concern on this work order? [00:12:32] David: Right? Because that's the emotion behind the status that you need to know. And it's like, yeah, two days ago Sally said that, you know, she was actually really frustrated about the multiple reschedules by this vendor. And it's like, great, that's a person I should be reaching out to and that's what I should be knowing that a status is never going to tell you. [00:12:47] David: Right? Yeah. It's in your slack, right? So if I have, if I'm on my phone, I'm talking to my employee and I'm laying in bed and I have a panic attack as a property manager, and I'm like, oh my gosh, did we take care of John's refrigerator and the office is closed? I can't get ahold of my employee. Yeah, you can. [00:13:03] David: Your employee works 24 7 now. Hey, can you give me an update on the refrigerator replacement at John's place? Yeah, it was scheduled this day. I contacted John. Everything's good to go. You know, go to sleep. You know, like, like that's the power. Full audit. Full syncing. So it's in your platform. That's really cool. [00:13:21] David: The other thing, it's got to be branded, right? This is a thing that we really learned about, like how important branding is to the community of property managers, right? Yeah. So the communications that go out have to be from your area code that's done. The emails that go out have to have like, you know, your company name and your logo on it. [00:13:39] David: The AI is doing that as well too. So that's being sent out, which is really cool. So people are feeling like, you know, that loyalty to brand is super important. And also do you know now that the AI can ask the residents to give a Google Review and we can link to the Google reviews and give you instant Google reviews to your page through the ai, which is cool, like how it's, it will know that if the success of a Google review is high on the way that the work order was done, that it's probably best to ask this person and it will send them a little thing. [00:14:11] David: Hey, can we get a feedback from you? And we link up to your Google review. And it posts that Google review to generate those 'cause we know those are super, super valuable to property managers. So that's actually going out today. That's kind of a little teaser there. That's the emails out now. [00:14:23] Jason: Nice. We'll have to get you to also connect it to our gather kudos links for clients 'cause then people can pick which review sites. So it diversifies the review profile.  [00:14:32] David: Love it. Love that. I'm going to hook you up with our guy Dotan. He's running that. He's one of our head of product. He's, actually out of Israel. [00:14:39] David: He's a amazing guy. I'd love to get you connected with him. Yeah. Cool. Let's do it. Cool. And then the biggest one too is like, I need a single point of contact. Right. And we knew that before there was a lot of people were still involved. There was a lot of oversight that was going on there, having that confusion and single point of contact. [00:14:56] David: Now it's in your phone, it's in your Slack, it's in your phone extension. It doesn't matter what's going on. You have one point of contact. It's your employee. You ask the question, get the answer, Jason, you can even ask for a change. You can even say, Hey, I want to change a vendor on a job and you'll see that the vendor gets changed for you in the system. [00:15:17] David: You can even say to your ai, and this is the big one: hey how do you triage this work order? And I want you to do this, or I want you to do that. And you just do it right through Slack or right through your PM chat and it makes the change for you. And now you have custom triage and all property managers have the ability to train their own AI for their company. [00:15:36] David: Think how cool that is. A person with 75 doors now, and the product that's being released has their own AI agent customized for their company, right? Yeah. Like, that's what happened over the last eight months, so you can see my excitement. There's been a lot of hard work in this. [00:15:54] David: Yeah, that's amazing. But this has been all the effort and a huge thank you out to everybody who's tried us, you know, even said that this wasn't for them at that point in time because those learnings went into what's going to make this product the best product in the property management space and is going to help people leverage sales and leverage efficiencies and blow their owners' minds away in ways that, that we have never thought about. [00:16:15] David: Oh yeah.  [00:16:16] Jason: Yeah. So I know like initially when you rolled this out, a lot of people were nervous about AI and you guys had kind of a human layer in between the AI and any communication Yeah, initially. Yeah. And so there was like, they had like a reps and a lot of people associated, oh, I've got this rep. [00:16:33] Jason: Yeah. You know, Steven or whatever is my rep or Pedro and I've got Pedro and like, oh no, what if Pedro leaves? And they were associating with that while the AI is really doing the crux of the work. Right. And so you guys have shifted away from even that now the AI is directly communicating with people. [00:16:52] Jason: Correct? Yeah.  [00:16:53] David: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, definitely, so in the beginning there was like, we all had like lack of trust. We believed what it was going to do, but it was like we had a ton of people still trying, like, you know, using qualified VAs, training them. Like, you know, like, you know, if it fails, like, you know, you have to have a person stepped in and so let's talk about that. [00:17:12] David: So, you know, it was definitely that human layer. And let's talk about where we're at today. It is very clear to us, and the one thing that separates us from everybody is we still believe that humans are super important in this process. Okay? Yeah. And where humans are very important in this process are going to be when the AI says, Hey, I need you to make a phone call to this person for me, right? [00:17:35] David: Hey, I've reached out to this vendor three times and they haven't responded yet. I need you to give a phone call to see what's going on. Right? Hey, I need you to recruit a vendor for me. I need you to reach out and do a recruitment for the vendor. For me. Hey, this owner is asking questions about this estimate. [00:17:51] David: I need you to give a call for me. So the AI is basically able, on a standard work order, the AI can handle 95% of the workflow, no problem. Work order comes in, gets assigned to the resident. It gets out to the vendor. It's under the NTE not to exceed. It's great. The work gets done, the resident uploads its photos, the AI says to the resident, are you happy? [00:18:14] David: Everyone's good. It closes the work order out. Cool. Right. And then if a human...  [00:18:19] Jason: and how is it communicating with the tenant and with the vendor typically? [00:18:24] David: Yep. So, it's very clear that and this isn't a surprise to anybody. Everybody loves text messages, right? Yeah. I mean, that's just, it's just what it is. [00:18:32] David: You literally, like, people will get a phone call and they won't pick up and the text will come back and like text back. Yeah, text me. What do you need? Yeah. Text me here. But, so here's the things that people don't see behind the scenes that we'll talk about. So the complexity that went into. [00:18:51] David: Mapping out how to allow vendors... so a vendor could have like 20 jobs, right? And we don't want to send him like a code that he has to text for every work order so that it links to the right work order. Like what guy wants to do that? Okay. Like that's not how he works. So we figured out how to allow a vendor through AI just to use his regular phone and text anything about this thing. And it's understanding it and it's mapping it, it's routing it to all those work orders because we knew that in order for this to be the last employee somebody would have to handle, it also means that the vendor has to be happy and the same for the resident. [00:19:30] David: They can just text that they have multiple work orders. It understands what work order it's going to. If it's not quite sure, I would ask them, Hey, is this question about this work order? And they say, yeah. And so there's not like, again, codes and links and things that they have to do. It has to be seamless if they're working with a person. [00:19:46] David: So yeah, text message is massive. Email is second, and then phone is third for sure.  [00:19:51] Jason: Got it. So is your AI system calling people yet or you or telling the property manager to make the phone call?  [00:19:58] David: Yeah. People are okay with. If they're calling in like our new front desk agent, which if a person calls in and they want to get information about a listing or if they want to get information about a work order or something like that, or, you know, they're okay with getting that type of information. [00:20:13] David: Yeah. But they are, it is very clear that they are not okay with AI calling them when they're asking for an update on a work order like that. Like that line in the sand very clear. Yeah. And so we have people on on the team. That are constantly monitoring into ai, giving feedback, hitting improvement. [00:20:31] David: I want everybody to know there is not a work order that is taking place that is not touched by a human at least twice.  [00:20:38] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:39] David: Okay. Right.  [00:20:40] Jason: So there's a little, there's some oversight there. There there's, you're watching this, there are humans involved  [00:20:45] David: And then the ai will when it hits certain fail points, right? [00:20:51] David: It then escalates those things up to what we call the human in the loop, right? So there's an AI assistant, we there's people now that we're training a whole new generation of people that are no longer going to be maintenance coordinators. They're AI assistants now, right? And so when the AI says, Hey, this work order is not going down the path that I think it should go to be successful. [00:21:12] David: I'm escalating this up to a human, and so now as a property manager, not only am I getting this AI agent workflow that's standardizing the empathy and the workflows and all the stuff that we talked about in the communications, I also now get a fractional employee that when the AI says, Hey, I need help, I already have an employee that it can reach out to that can make that phone call or call the vendor. [00:21:36] David: But it's also monitoring the AI for me on top of it. So yes, there is, and that's one of the big thing that separates us apart is that the platform comes with what we call a human in the loop, an expert in the loop and so we're training the first generation of AI assistants in the property management industry. [00:21:55] David: Yep.  [00:21:56] Jason: Got it. So the AI maintenance coordinator. Has human assistance. Yep. Underneath it.  [00:22:02] David: And before it was the other way around where Yeah. The AI was assisting the human right. And now the humans are assisting the ai. That's what's happened in the last...  [00:22:11] Jason: that may be the future of all of our roles. [00:22:12] Jason: So,  [00:22:13] David: If you're not reading articles and studying up on this I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly. Yeah. Learn how to write prompts. I'll tell everybody right now. Yes.  [00:22:21] Jason: Yeah. Interesting. So, now what about this, you know, there's the uncanny, you know, sort of stage where people get a little bit nervous about AI and what do they call it? The uncanny valley or something like this, or right where it gets, it's so close to human that it becomes creepy. And there's some people that have fear about this, that are concerned. You're going to have a lot of late, you know, adopters that are like resistant. "I'll never do ai." [00:22:49] Jason: What would you say to somebody when you get on a sales call and they're like, well, I'm really nervous about this AI stuff, you know, and they just, they don't get it.  [00:22:57] David: Yeah.  [00:22:58] Jason: I'm sure there's people listening right now. They're like, oh man, AI is going to kill us all and it's going to take over the world and it's going to take our jobs. [00:23:05] Jason: And they think it's evil.  [00:23:06] David: Yeah. Yeah. I, and you know, I really want to hear that fear and I want to like, again, have empathy towards that. 'cause I do understand that fear of change causes people to get... Change in general. Yes. Right. It's like, whoa, I like everything the way it's going to be. Right. And we are historically in one of those phases of like, you know, the industrial revolution, the renaissance, like the automobile from horse. [00:23:34] David: Like, this is what is taking place. This is, this will be written down in history. It's massive change. It's a massive change. Massive. So what I would say to them, and not to, not from a way of fear. But to inspire them is there are a lot of hungry entrepreneurs out there that are embracing this head on. [00:23:57] David: Yeah. That are pushing the boundaries and the limits to be able to bring insights and customer service to their clients at a much higher level. And if you want to compete in this new AI economy. I would definitely encourage you to understand and get in and start investing in yourself now. But understand that investing in AI means having some pain threshold. [00:24:21] David: Like you got to get in, like you, you need to be able to give the feedback. You need to understand that if it falls short, do you have to be able to give it the time and the energy and the reward and the payoff of what I'm seeing for property managers who've embraced that when they're sitting there and they're going, I don't touch maintenance at all anymore. Yeah, it's wild. Right? And those are the people that in the beginning of this relationship, and there's a few that come to my head, are the ones that were sending me emails constantly saying, David, this is failing me. I believe in this, but this is failing me. And as my technology partner, I know that you're going to help us get this better. [00:24:58] David: And there is, you know, I have this word down that struggle equals great con conversation, right? Like, and so they had a struggle and that opened up a great conversation and because of that, their technology and the technology is getting better. So yeah, I think that from a personal point of view in this industry, one thing that I want to solve with AI is I think that we can all say that over the past 15 years, we've probably yelled at a lot of vendors or yelled at a lot of VAs or yelled at a lot of people. Let's start yelling at the ai. And then hopefully that the AI will actually eliminate the need for us to ever have to yell at anybody again because it knows us. [00:25:36] David: Yeah. It never fails us.  [00:25:38] Jason: You know? It really is amazing. I mean, your company is creating freedom for the business owner from being involved in maintenance. Yeah. Really?  [00:25:46] David: Yeah.  [00:25:47] Jason: And it just, and they get used to that pretty quickly. Like maintenance is just running and they're like, yeah. It frees up so much head space for them to focus on growth. [00:25:56] Jason: It gives them a whole bunch of like just greater capacity. Yeah. So they feel like, yeah, we could handle adding any number of doors now and we know we can still fulfill and do a good job.  [00:26:07] David: Yeah. Fixed cost scaling. Right? That's a term that we came up with is now that you know that I have a price per door that will cover all my maintenance. So if I went in and brought on 75 doors, I know that I don't have to go out and hire another employee. The system just grows with it and I know exactly what my margin is for all those doors. Right. And as we know previous, before fixed cost scaling a property managers is like, I have enough people. [00:26:32] David: I don't have enough people. Someone quit, someone didn't quit. My profit margins are good. My profit margins are bad. Yeah. And now with these AI tools. You know, you have your front desk employee, you have your maintenance coordinator, you have these fixed cost scales, and now somebody calls you up and says, Hey, I want you to take on 25 doors, and you're like, I have the resource resources for maintenance, which is, we know is 80% of the workload already. I don't have to go out and hire another maintenance coordinator 'cause the system just grows with me, which is cool.  [00:27:00] Jason: So one of the things you shared at DoorGrow Live and you're our top sponsor for the upcoming... Can't wait for DoorGrow Live, can't wait to, so we're really excited to have you back so. [00:27:10] Jason: Everybody make sure you're at DoorGrow Live if you want. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And we're bringing, we're going to be showcasing, innovating pricing structures that are different than how property managers have typically historically priced, that allow you to lower your operational costs and close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:27:30] Jason: We're, we'll be showcasing a three tier hybrid pricing model that we've innovated here at DoorGrow, and we've got clients using it. It's been a game changer. We're going to be sharing other cool things about the future hiring systems, et cetera. Right. So you guys will also be there showcasing the future. [00:27:46] Jason: One of the things you shared previously that really kind of struck me as you showed, you did some research and you showed the typical cost. Per unit that most companies had just to cover and deal with maintenance. Yeah. And and then what you were able to get it down to.  [00:28:03] David: Yeah.  [00:28:04] Jason: And that alone was just like a bit of a mind blowing. [00:28:07] Jason: Could you just share a little bit of numbers here?  [00:28:09] David: Yeah. So one of the first things that we had to do when we started way back in the day is figure out well. Like, like what's the impact of AI going to be us from like a cost perspective, right? Is it a huge change? And so we went out on a big survey mission and we were surveying property managers and asking them, what's your cost per door for managing maintenance? [00:28:30] David: How much do you spend every door to manage maintenance? Now the first thing is less than 1% of property managers knew what that cost was. Sure.  [00:28:37] Jason: Oh, sure. Right. Because, but then they got to figure out, oh, we got a maintenance coordinator and we've got these people doing phone calls and they cost this, and yeah, it's complicated. [00:28:45] David: It's complicated. So we built a calculator. Okay. And then people could start adding in that information out into the calculator, and the average person was around $13 and 50 cents a door.  [00:28:56] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:28:57] David: Wow. Right, right. So that was where the average person was, somewhere in the low twenties. Yeah. [00:29:01] David: And others were actually pretty good. Like, I'd say like, you know, some of the good ones that we saw were maybe around like, you know, 10, $11 a door or something along that line.  [00:29:09] Jason: They probably had a large portfolio would be my guess.  [00:29:12] David: Yeah. And also I think a lot of it's just like, you know, I don't know if they were still accounting for all their software and everything that they had. [00:29:19] David: Maybe they're not factoring everything. Yeah. No, I think if we really dug in, it'd be different. So now we know that, you know, the base package of what people are getting in. The average cost of what people are paying for 24 7 services that's emergencies around the clock is about $7 and 50 cents a door, right? [00:29:37] David: So right off the bat in AI's first swing, it said we cut the cost in half. Yeah. Okay. Right. So 50% reduction. I mean, to me as an owner, a 50% reduction in cost. That's like. You know, alarms and celebration going off, you know? For sure. And then, yeah.  [00:29:55] Jason: And that's, if everything just stayed the same, like it was still the same level of quality, cutting in half would be a solid win right there. [00:30:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:30:03] David: Yeah. That's just like status quo stuff. And now what, with the release of the new Vendoroo product that, that's actually being announced here today. The email's going out to all of our existing clients of all the new features that are coming out now, we're starting to see that. You know that quality is now increasing to where if you were to go out and hire that person, you may have to be spending, you know, 55,000 or $65,000 a year. [00:30:29] David: Right? So now it's like saying, okay, if we can get as good as what these people are using for their VAs right, and we know what that cost is, and they're saying that's, you know, that's what their factors is. Well, what happens in the next six to 12 months when this is a seasoned person that you would've to pay $85,000 a year to? [00:30:45] David: Right. Yeah. And right, because they have knowledge of. Estimates and knowledge of vendor routing and knowledge of, you know, it can handle...  [00:30:53] Jason: you've invested so much time into them, so much attention. They know your properties and know your portfolio. They know the vendors. Like you've invested so much into this person that now they sort of have you by the balls so that they're like, Hey, I want 80 k or I walk.  [00:31:06] David: Yeah.  [00:31:06] Jason: You're like, you've got to come up with it.  [00:31:08] David: Yeah.  [00:31:09] Jason: Right. You've got to do it.  [00:31:10] David: Yeah.  [00:31:10] Jason: And you know, because that's not easy to create. And a lot of people, in order to have a good maintenance coordinator, they need a veteran of the industry. Veteran of industry. [00:31:19] Jason: They need somebody that's been doing this a long time.  [00:31:21] David: Yeah.  [00:31:22] Jason: And that's really hard to find.  [00:31:24] David: Yes. It's extremely hard to find as we know. One of the things that I think that we're doing for this industry is we're actually preserving knowledge that I don't think is necessary getting passed down. [00:31:33] David: Yeah. You know, there's a lot less people that I think are as handy as they once were in the Americas and so we have a lot of that knowledge. Like, you know, we know that the average age of an electrician is in the sixties, the average age of a plumber's in the sixties. And these guys, you know, they have wealth of knowledge that it can troubleshoot anything that's going on in a house. [00:31:54] David: And so to be able to try to preserve some of that, so maybe if a person does come in, you know, maybe there's some knowledge sharing along the lines. But let's take it even in another step forward Jason that in the future, you know, the AI is going to know the location of the hot water tank in that house. [00:32:10] David: It's going to then add it automatically to the system, like. It's going to know more knowledge than they will because it's going to have maps of every single property that's all currently sitting inside of, you know, that maintenance coordinator's head, right? And so it's going to, it's going to actually know more than them, you know. [00:32:26] Jason: Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. It's the future. Cool. Well, you're rolling out a bunch of new features. You're announcing these today. You've told me a little bit, but why don't you tell the listeners what's changing, what's new, what innovations have come out? What are you guys launching? [00:32:41] David: Yeah. Exciting. Yeah. So, the biggest one I think is, which is the most exciting is, is Resiroo, which is the first one that actually handles all the communications with the resident and does the triage and troubleshooting. First one of what are you talking about? So we have our products. [00:32:57] David: So you have these AI tools, right? These agents. Right.  [00:33:00] Jason: And so, you know, every, so think of them like different sort of people?  [00:33:04] David: Skill sets. Yeah. Different person. Okay. Exactly. And so that's when you come and see our display at the NARPM conference, you'll actually will see these five agents kind of in their work desk and in their environments, kind of cool. [00:33:15] David: Okay. Able to see them right. So the coolest part about that one is we're doing a major product you know, update on that for not only the knowledge base, but we're actually turning that over to the company. We were talking about this a little bit before, and now they own their own AI agent and they can customize it into how they want it to ask questions or the type of questions and the mindsets when it's triaging stuff. [00:33:41] David: Triaging work orders for their portfolio. Like super cool. So fully customizable to your company, right?  [00:33:49] Jason: So now sometimes the more humans get involved, the more they mess stuff up.  [00:33:54] David: Yes. We make sure they don't mess it up. So everyone's going to learn how to write prompts and they'll submit it into us. [00:33:59] David: And we have a great team of AI engineers that when that knowledge base is written or what they're doing. We will ensure that it is put in so that it actually produces the desire outcome, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's a very exciting one. The second one that I'm that I think is so cool, do you know that only 10% of all estimates get approved by the owner without one or multiple questions? [00:34:23] David: Because owners really struggle with trust when it comes to estimates. Like 10%. Like, that's a really bad number, I felt as the industry that owners only believe us one out of 10 times. Like that's the way I took that. Yeah. Right. And so, Owneroo is what I coined inside, is the estimate of the future. [00:34:41] David: That really was looking in understanding like what was, what questions was the owner asking when they were rejecting a bid that that we could proactively ask the answer for them to help guide them to understanding the value in this estimate that they're looking at in historical context of the property. [00:35:00] David: How many other people have experienced this issue? Like, like there's a whole bunch of factors that should go into an estimate and an estimate should no longer be like, here's a cost from Frank. Right? Like, like that was like, like that was...  [00:35:14] Jason: here's what Frank said it is. Yeah. Like that was like from the 1940s. [00:35:17] Jason: That's good. How do I trust that?  [00:35:18] David: How do I trust that? That was from the forties and we're still...  [00:35:21] Jason: how much went into this decision? Was this just out of the blue, like pulled out of your ass or is this like legit?  [00:35:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. What's the, you know, we live in a data-driven world, so what's the intellect behind this estimate? [00:35:33] David: And so I'm really excited about Owneroo, which is going to be the new standard for the way the estimates are created. We have the front desk agent which is coming out. So, that one is going to handle phone calls that are coming in, be able to talk about available listings, actual general questions about leases route phone calls over to property managers for you. [00:35:54] David: So again. Very human-like interaction, great AI voice. Actually. We feel it's going to be the best in the industry. So a person's calling in, just like they're calling your office able to handle all those front desk things. We, we have the PM chat, which is now the employee which is fully integrated into all of your systems. [00:36:14] David: It's in Slack. That's your employee that you get to talk to. We believe that if you're going to hire somebody, they should be inside of your communication channels. You have the Google Chrome extension that it's on right inside your AppFolio or your buildium or your Rentvine software that you can ask and talk to it. [00:36:31] David: So, yeah, so we have a lot of exciting products that have come out. And then of course the backbone of all of them in the middle is Vendoroo, which handles all the scheduling, all the communications. You know, a resident asks for an update, responds to them, an owner asks for an update, it responds to them. [00:36:48] David: And you know, it handles actually the body of the work order. So you have those five tools, we believe are what the property management industry said. If you are going to give me an employee, this is what the employee has to be. This is what makes up that employee. So we say that these tools, these agents were actually built by the property management industry. [00:37:08] David: And that excites me because if you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:37:25] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware.  [00:37:29] Jason: Yeah. So you guys connect with Slack. They can communicate through Slack, but it slack's a paid tool. Have you guys considered Telegram? I love Telegram Messenger.  [00:37:37] Jason: Alright. Could you do that? Write it down. Telegram Messenger is like the iMessage tool that works on every device. [00:37:44] Jason: It's free. It's one of the most secure, it's not owned or controlled by Facebook. Like, WhatsApp, like, yeah. But WhatsApp might be a close second, but we use Telegram internally, so I love Telegram.  [00:37:58] David: We'll definitely take that into, into consideration for sure. Yeah, check it  [00:38:02] Jason: out. Because I, what I love is the voice message feature and I can just listen to my team and others at like high speed, but internal communications and it's free for everybody, which is great. [00:38:12] Jason: So, yeah.  [00:38:13] David: Yeah. I think a lot, for a lot of people it was like you know, who was Vendoroo in the beginning and Vendoroo was like the team of like people that were trying to figure out like how is AI going to work in this industry? [00:38:26] David: How is it going to solve the needs of our property management partners? And this is why I say to everybody, if you thought about Vendoroo, if you came in and the experience wasn't great with Vendoroo, if you're one of our existing clients that has been with us and you're and you're still moving forward, and we thank you so much for your dedication to this, the Vendoroo product, everything that we've done, everything that we worked at is being showcased at the NARPM broker owner. The email's going out today. This is who Vendoroo is. We are a team that is a technology partner for the property management industry that is helping building meaningful AI tools, specifically by demand, by our industry to help us show value and to preserve this great industry. [00:39:09] David: For the future in this new AI economy, right? Like we need to step up. We have clients that are adding doors left and right because they're showing their clients that they use an AI maintenance system and their clients are like, this is what I expect from a property management in this community. [00:39:24] David: Right? And again, Owneroo, that estimate, we believe that in the future. Like, like owners are going to say like, I'm not approving an estimate unless it's like the estimate of the future, right? Like, like that's the new standard. So you got to know what the new standards are and you got to get technology that are going to help you compete with those new standards that will be in your community and are will be in your community in the next week, the next two weeks. [00:39:46] David: And definitely some really cool products in the next six months.  [00:39:49] Jason: All right. Well, yeah, I'm really excited to see what you guys have been able to create so far. So yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. All right. Well David, it's been awesome having you on the show. Sounds like you guys are really innovating the future. Everybody come to DoorGrow Live. David, are you going to be at that one? I will be there. All right, so you can come meet David in person. [00:40:08] Jason: We've got some amazing people that are going to be at this. We've got technology people. There's a gentleman there, one of the vendors they created another really cool tool, but he had a hundred million dollars exit, you know, in a previous business, like there's really amazing entrepreneurs and people at this event, so come to DoorGrow Live, get your tickets, and if you do, we have just decided that we're going to give out to anybody that registers. [00:40:34] Jason: You can pick from one of our free bonuses that are well worth the price of the ticket. Or coming or anything in and of itself, including our pricing secrets training that goes over a three tier hybrid pricing model or our sales secrets training, which goes over how we're helping property managers crush it and closing more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:40:55] Jason: And reputation secrets, which are helping our clients get way more positive reviews by leveraging the psychology and the law of reciprocity and getting the majority of their tenants in order to give them positive feedback online. Maybe some others. So you'll be able to pick from these bonuses one of these that you might like and that's our free, most incredible free gift ever that we'll give to each person that registers for DoorGrow Live. [00:41:19] Jason: So.  [00:41:20] David: Cool. Awesome man. Always great to see you. Looking forward to seeing you at DoorGrow Live and love that you guys are working on pricing because AI is going to make people think different about pricing. It's going to be way more efficient, so you guys are ahead of the curve on that. Great job, Jason. [00:41:33] Jason: Awesome. All right, so how can they check out Vendoroo, David?  [00:41:36] David: Just visit, Vendoroo.ai, go to the website, request a demo with one of our great sales reps, and yeah they'd love to help you out. See all the new products, see how far it's come. And again, we thank everybody from the bottom of our hearts for all their effort, people who've tried us out. [00:41:52] David: Come back and see what you built and yeah. Come check us out at Vendoroo.  [00:41:57] Jason: Got it. Go check out Vendoroo, it's vendor. If you know how to spell that, V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O dot A-I, go check it out. All right? And if you're a property management entrepreneur, you want to add doors, you want to make your business scalable, you want to get out of the day to day, you want to increase the capacity so your company could easily handle another 200 plus doors without having to make any significant systems changes, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We will help you figure it out. So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

What are the things you can control in your business? What are the things that we can look at? Identifying the very specific companies, the very specific industries that we need to be able to interact with, to be able to get our customers as close to what they need as possible. We might not be able to get them exactly what they want at the price they want it. But most of them are going to understand that. Most clients are not going to blame you for the fact that the economy is doing certain things, or that there are things happening in the world. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, cohost Kevin Rosenquist and I will be discussing focusing on things you can control. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, it's great to be here, David. I always am a big preacher around the house of "control what you can control." You know, I can't do everything. So control what you can control. So I'm excited to talk about this. David: Yeah, it's a really good topic, both from a personal standpoint and from a business standpoint. It's so easy to get caught up in the day to day of what's going on outside our own environments. Especially with the news. Everybody's talking about different things that are happening regarding the economy, the stock market, all kinds of things that are happening. When we focus too much on the things that are outside of our control, we basically abdicate the things we can work on that move the needle for us. Kevin: Do you feel like people are even more focused on stuff they can't control? Like what's happening in the world and in the news now because of how much news is thrown at us in so many different ways with social media and whatnot? David: I think so. Yeah. I think it's always been like this. But yes, it does seem to be more of an epidemic lately, than maybe it has been in the past. I remember being exposed to this concept, I think it was in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Stephen Covey was talking about your sphere of influence. Kevin: Mm-hmm. David: Where you basically draw a circle and you say, okay, inside this circle is what I can control. And everything outside. It is what I can't control, which is basically the world and everything else. Right. Kevin: Which is, which is a lot of stuff. David: It is a lot of stuff. If this is the circle, then everything outside the circle off into infinity is the stuff you can't control. Exactly. In a situation like that, the more you focus inside your sphere of influence, the bigger it gets. So when you're focusing on the things that you have control of, you end up having control of more things. When you focus your attention outside the sphere of influence, the smaller it gets. That's because you're not working on the things you can actually control. And so for those of us in business... When we are able to really pay attention to that, you can grow your sphere of influence. You can control more of your own environment to accomplish the things you're looking to accomplish. Kevin: Absolutely. So let 's get a little specific here. Let's talk about sales for a second. 'cause one of the things I think about with sales is that sales teams can get really tied up with market conditions and what competitors are doing and all that. How can sales teams kind of focus on what they can directly influence. David: That is such a brilliant example because it's so true. In sales meetings very often you'll have conversations. "Well, this person's doing this, or this person's doing that. Or these people are cutting their price." It's all valid. Those are all things that may actually be happening in the marketplace that we have to respond to. But the first thing to do in that situation is to say, how can we flip the script on this? How can we turn this into something that we can do that is going to be better, different, and received by the market in a way that makes what they're doing less important...

Getting to your ideal prospects involves identifying what our ideal prospect looks like in terms of the type of customer we're looking for, the type of industry they're in, the number of people in their organization if we're selling B2B. All these considerations that are going to add up to the ideal prospect, because until we know who it is we're going to go after, we have absolutely no idea where to go to find them. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode cohost Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the idea of getting to your ideal prospects. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much. Another great topic. We could call this one the Holy Grail of Sales. How much time does everybody spend talking to people who would never be their client in the first place? What would you do with all that extra time? David: It is an amazing amount of time. When we work with clients, that is one of the biggest ways that they get back time that is otherwise spent. Very often, when people are considering the idea of working with us to help them grow their sales and profits, it's like, “well, am I going to have time to do this?” And nine times out of 10, they don't have time not to do it. Because they're wasting, in many cases, so much time with poor, unqualified prospects. And simply by taking a few specific actions, you can pretty much eliminate a lot of that right up front, save yourself enormous amounts of time, and better still, being able to then interact with the types of clients you actually want to do business with Jay: But I'm a new company. I need money to pay my bills. I need to try and close everybody. Isn't that what you would hear? David: In the early stages, everybody says that, and after they've been in business for a while, they try to figure out, now how do I undo what I've done? How do I untie this knot that I've tied for myself over the past however, many months or years? But yeah, in the early stages, we just want to take anyone who's willing to do business with us. But eventually, when our true selves kick in -- when we find ourselves in a conversation with the wrong client, somebody that we took on a while before, and we recognize, wow, this was a mistake -- that's when you start thinking, Okay, well, maybe what I need to do going forward is to not just take anyone. I need to identify who are these ideal prospects. How can I identify and initiate contact with the right people up front so that I'm not wasting a lot of time with the wrong people down the line. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I have a business partner and he's this sage old business partner. He's built several businesses on his own over the years and I didn't know he was even doing it, but he has this list of people who he doesn't want to do business with anymore. He calls it the naughty list. And, somebody came around and they were repurchasing our services. He just, with no emotion said, “nah, I don't want to do that.” And I'm like, what are you talking…? I didn't even remember the customer. And he's like, “no, they're on the naughty list. They were a pain. They didn't provide what we needed soon enough and they harassed us on our pricing. The answer is no.” And so he's got this Santa Claus naughty list, and I was like, “but they want to give us money.” And I've just come around to his way of thinking. I am not emotional about it anymore. They're on the list. Forget it. David: It's a lump of coal for you, baby. That's how it works. Yeah. I mean, it is a strong argument for the fact that you don't need more prospects, you need the right prospects. You don't need more customers necessarily, you need more of the right customers. Because life is too short to do anything else in my view. Jay: Yeah. Let's say that you spend 10 hours a day working with customers are doing sales for potential customers, and five of those hours are spent on people who are not the right fit.

"You have to create value in the sales process, create value in all the communication that you're putting out there. When you do that, you're already positioned better and differently. So when you think about the idea of what you say about what you do, you're doing it in a way that is actually appealing to people rather than repellent." David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic "what you say about what you do." What it is, Jay? Jay: Hey, David, how's it going? Once again, it's a pleasure to be here. I think, how we view ourselves, how we talk to ourselves, what is that inner monologue? Those types of things, they matter a lot, and they're probably things that we never think about. David: Yeah. And it's interesting you should bring that up. Because when we talk about what we say about what we do, yeah, there's what you just mentioned, what we're telling ourselves in our own heads. And then there's also the idea of what we're saying to prospects and clients about what we will potentially do for them. Essentially the communication, the messaging that we are putting out into the world, that will allow someone to decide whether or not they want to do business with us. Jay: Yeah. And this is so important because if you over promise, you're setting up for failure from the beginning, right? If you under promise, then they may find a competitor who promises something faster or better. So there is a strike zone there somewhere that you have to find. David: Exactly. And our messaging is very likely either going to attract the person we're talking to, or it's going to repel them. Probably the worst case scenario is if it does neither. It's just totally boring and they're not even paying attention to what you have to say. But when we recognize that, particularly in the early stages, what we tell them about what we do or what we're planning to do for them is going to determine the nature of the relationship. If we communicate something that sounds appealing to them, It's like they'll be interested. If we communicate something that does not sound appealing to them, then it's likely they are not going to be interested. So we don't want to go into these situations and wing it, particularly when we're going from prospect to prospect. We want to make sure that we're creating a consistent experience so that each person we talk to is getting the best of what we have to offer, up front, so they can make an intelligent decision. Jay: Yeah, we've really started using, I learned it from being in the media, process language. Like, if you are out doing a news report somewhere, you didn't just say, well, I'm standing on the street corner and this is what I'm seeing. You instead say, "well, we got here about 20 minutes ago when we rolled up, this is what we saw. This is what we're seeing, right? You bring them with you to wherever you're at. And so we kind of do this process language, not just about how we got here. And process questions. Like I want to know what drove you to call me. So that's the first thing I want to know, "what drove you to call me?" The second thing I want to know is, what is your expectation from this call? Like what are you hoping to gain from it? And then we can get to where we're at. And then we'll start talking a little bit. If you use our services, this will be the process moving forward. By the time we've shaped this whole thing, it's like we've been friends for years, you know what I mean? So, it's something that I love doing and it makes the potential client very comfortable. David: It makes a whole lot of sense and it's really about being present in that moment with the prospect or client, and having them be there with you at that point as well. Where one person is not talking, another person is totally tuned out. It really is about creating that level of communication where you are interacting the way that...

The counsel and the guidance that St. John offers in this letter is unparalleled. His understanding of the role of the spiritual elder and the nature and manner of engaging those in his responsibility is deep and astute, both psychologically and spiritually. Yet what stands out the most in this letter is the dynamic that must exist between the spiritual elder and those in his care. The Abbot or the elder could never be described as an administrator or a master platoon leader in the military. Simply put, he is to be an embodiment of Christ to those in his care, being willing to lay down his life on their behalf. It is crucified love that saves and redeems us, and it is the same love that must guide the words and actions of one who has been given the responsibility for the care of others. What drives the heart of such an elder is the understanding of the care that he himself has been given, the consolation that God has offered to him. These realities move him to share what he himself has received an abundance. In fact to fail to do so is a reflection of a lack of charity as well as gratitude. By nature, a spiritual elder longs to help those in his care to avoid the pitfalls that the Evil One places before them in the spiritual life. He must be sensitive to the most subtle movements among the members of his community and the spirit that is manifesting itself among them.  Likewise, driven by love he must foster a sense of generosity between the members of the community and those in his care. He cannot allow himself the luxury of treating everyone the same - any more than a parent addresses the needs of their children in a mechanical fashion. St. John tells us “the overseers must heed to the sowing of the seed: to the season, person, quality, and quantity.” The elder must nurture and nourish as need demands. And finally, the one who does this in the fullest measure acts in a hidden fashion so that all glory and gratitude is directed toward God.  May God give us such faithful shepherds! --- Text of chat during the group: 00:10:09 Suzanne Romano: I just this minute received word that Bishop Richard Williamson passed away this evening. Please pray for his immortal soul. 00:10:54 Anna Lalonde: Are you moving there? 00:11:06 Anna Lalonde: In California 00:11:23 Anna Lalonde: Awesome 00:16:20 David: One thing I like about my Dad who keeps a saying from my Grandfather is when someone says thank you. He always says No thank God I am able. A small detail but I have come to appreciate it more with age and now do the same 00:23:04 Zachary Morgan: alhamdulilah! 00:39:34 Anthony: This relationship of shepherd to sheep reminds me of the "royal priesthood" described by St Ephrem in The Cave of Treasures.  Adam and his successor priest-kings on the mount of paradise took the care of all the faithful in their hands....until the numbers of faithful dwelling on the mountain dwindled, going into the plain and mingling with Cain's people.....and then God sent the Flood. 00:40:09 David: When I taught at a catholic school in Spain one of my mentors used to say there two types of teachers: One that seeks control and power and the other is one who learns more than the students about himself and faith. 00:51:50 Joseph Muir: For those who don't have the book, the two quotes at the end of the last paragraph come from the prophets Jeremiah and Obadiah, respectively 00:54:57 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "For those who don't ..." with

When you're creating demand for your products and services to the point where they really want it, "listen, yes, I want to do this. I want to move forward with you." That is extremely powerful. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I discuss creating demand for your solution. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Thank you so much. Once again, a great topic. If we could all do that, if we could all accomplish this simple goal, then none of us would have to worry. We'd have all the business that we would want, correct? David: It sure seems that way, doesn't it? I mean, when we are able to succeed in creating demand for our products and services, selling becomes so much easier. It's not quite unnecessary, but it gets darn close to it. When somebody just really wants what it is that you have to offer, everything gets easier. Jay: Yeah. I think may be a little bit counterintuitive, right? Where like, I need to find a demand that people have, and then I need to create solutions for that demand. And I think that's entirely appropriate, but it's not enough, right? It's maybe only half the battle. David: Right, because there's a certain amount of demand that can be found, but there is probably a lot more that can be mined with a little bit of effort. Now mining, that sort of implies that you've got to do some digging. You've got to do a little more work and just sort of saying, well, I found this, this, and this. These are the three things I'm going to talk about, and these are the three things I'm going to lead with. But when you recognize that there are things that we can say, there are things that we can do that will not just create demand for our products, particularly if we're selling commodity products. Because creating demand for our products isn't going to be helpful unless it's creating demand for the products that we're selling. Because if they can get it anywhere, I can create demand for something that they can then go buy from someone else. So part of this has to be the ability to create demand for not just the products and services you offer, but the way that you offer those things. All the little differences in the way that you do things, there needs to be demand that is created for that. And you're the only one who can do it because you're the only one who knows what those differences are. Jay: Yeah, I agree, and back to the idea that I'm going to create a business based upon a certain demand, can that demand actually support and sustain a business? You know, just because there's demand doesn't mean that you can survive off it, especially if you're only going to get a certain market share of that demand. So it better not be your only solution, right? And so I think with your website advertising, with everything that you do, you should be thinking, how do I convince people who may happen to my site or happen on my business? Wow, I didn't even think that I needed this person, but I really do. David: Yeah, and a lot of that goes to getting past the what, in terms of the product, and getting to the how. The way that you are better, the way that you are different, the reason that If they don't choose you over every other option available to them, they're shooting themselves in the foot. And that's what most people tend to miss in their messaging. They talk about products, they talk about speed of delivery, they talk about pricing, all the usual things. But so many of those things are common to everyone, that those can't be the things that you focus on. Because if you do, you're just creating more demand for the products and services, as opposed to creating demand for your method of providing those products and services. Jay: Yeah, you know, I think about our own business model. A lot of people call us and talk to us in the consultation. They're not even sure if they need help. So our first step is to convince them they absolutely do.

To hit the ground running in 2025, we can start by taking responsibility. Whenever we blame outside factors for things that go wrong, we immediately forget that there are things we can evaluate in ourselves to say, okay, well even if this is the case, even if this was just a terrible prospect, are there things that I could have done better and differently in this circumstance to create a better outcome? And almost inevitably, the answer is going to be yes. But in order for that to happen, we have to consider it. And we have to think, is this actually what I want to do? And if you do that, you're just going to feel better about yourself. You're going to feel better about your situation. Because you're allowing yourself some level of control in the situation rather than simply delegating the failure to outside factors and assume you're a victim and there's nothing you can do about it. David: Hi and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing how to hit the ground running in the new year. Happy New Year, and welcome back Jay! Jay: Thank you, David. It's such a pleasure to be here. I think everybody has a desire, you know, at the beginning of the year, to say this year's going to be different, you know, we're going to make all these changes. It's going to be fantastic. But do they really have a way to translate that into action? I picture myself hitting the ground, you know, it's like the cartoon when they start to run, you know, their feet are moving, but they're not moving quite yet. I think a lot of us are in that place. How do we get from spinning to actually moving forward? David: Yeah, it's a great question. I know in the promotional products industry, we have trade shows that start at the beginning of the new year, the ASI Show in Orlando, the PPAI Expo in Las Vegas. And, There's one in Fort Worth as well, an ASI show in Fort Worth. So we got three trade shows in the industry that are really designed to help people get up and running and get started. But as we look at today, you know, this first week of the new year, even aside from that, whether or not you're attending a trade show, chances are you're probably pretty reasonably fired up. Okay, here we go. It's another new year. What are we going to do? This is exciting. And if we think about the types of prospects that we want to interact with this year, the types of clients that we would like to attract, the types of customers that we might want to let go this year, and really focus on building our businesses as proactively as possible. Building our client lists as proactively as possible can really help to improve our quality of life in a dramatic way. Jay: Yeah. I love that. in the restaurant business, there's something called a theoretical food cost and an actual food cost. Theoretical is, what would things be like if you ran perfectly? If there was no waste, everything was perfect. And then actual is where you're at. And the goal is to constantly be trying to close that gap. And so to me, I think about it in any business, what does your ideal look like? Your ideal client base, your ideal staff, your ideal sales? So if you can know what that is and then track a course to get to it, I think that's a great way to feel progress. Because that's what I tend to miss when I'm running a business is sometimes it's just a daily grind. And I don't feel like I made any progress today. And if you do that over and over again, it's hard to continue to press forward. David: It really is. And I think a lot of that goes to the fact that very often we're just tied up in the day. Whatever it is that's going on in the day, we're just facing whatever is happening to us moment by moment, day by day. And that can get very frustrating. I remember, I think it was Tony Robbins was talking in a seminar one time about the idea that in order to create our future, we need to envision it first.

Sometimes during a group it is as if a light comes on that illuminates some aspect of life in a magnificent fashion and that speaks to each person in the group whatever their background or station in life. This was true in particular this evening as we continued to discuss St. John's writing “To the Shepherd” on the responsibilities of a spiritual elder. As we made our way through the text, it became clear that St. John's teaching about the care of souls applies to all of those who are responsible for the formation of others; not only priests or religious, but also parents, teachers, friends, etc.  Not one of us is free from the charge of the salvation of others; aiding them through our prayers, taking opportune moments to clarify their understanding of the faith, being living witnesses of the gospel and the love of the cross. All of us have the responsibility of seeking purity of heart and freedom from the passions in order that we might be able to discern with clarity and humility the needs of those around us. Lacking this, St. John tells us, we undermine our capacity to be well disposed and compassionate to each individual for whom we are responsible or who enters our life. How is it that we can serve others if we cannot discern good from evil and everything in between? In fact, St. John tells us it is a great disgrace for a superior to pray for or hold forward spiritual gifts to others that he himself is not acquired. How is it that he can faithfully guide others to God and to become partakers of the glory of God if he has no understanding of this within his own heart. Experience is the truest teacher and if the superior lacks that experience, he may only bring harm to others. Those who are spiritual elders, fathers, or mothers, must not be tempted to set aside this role in order to enjoy worldly friendship with those in their charge. It can be a natural thing to want companionship and to some extent this can exist. However, if a familiarity develops between the superior and others, he may lose the capacity to guide and feel constrained to do the bidding of others; never to contradict them, refuse them, or correct them. The elder must be pure of heart and able to understand the interior life and also the realities that sanctify us within the life of the church. The elder must be able to create a culture that forms a mind and heart directed toward God, the love of neighbor and the love of virtue. He must be able to discern the emotional capacity and maturity of others, so as not to push too hard and risk breaking their spirit or neglect giving counsel or correction of those who are quick witted and naturally gifted. Such purity of heart alone allows the elder to perceive supernatural realities and to understand the struggles that individuals have with multiple demons. The elder must be able to cure passions thought by others to be incurable. In this sense, he must have truly put on the mind of Christ and be the most humble and obedient member of the community. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:02 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 251, # 14   00:19:16 carol_000: Is much known about the repentance of Joseph's brothers or God chastising them for their treatment of Joseph   00:26:27 David: I think this is a big problem also in families. My oldest son felt I was often to hard on him. Now that he is 27 he has mentioned several times that I was the only one that loved him and was always there. It is really hard but being a father is different than being a friend only there to enjoy the good times and not try to guide someone to what has value.   00:28:48 Art: Reacted to "I think this is a bi..." with

If you want to reduce or eliminate cold calls, you need to recognize that there are other, and very often more effective ways of doing this. More leveraged ways to be able to do this. More ways of being more focused, more specific... David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing how to reduce or eliminate cold calls. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey David, I'm so glad we're talking about this. I hate cold calls and who loves them? Right? I mean, if anybody comes on and says they love cold calls, wow. I mean, maybe if you do it enough and it's successful enough, I can see how you would love them, but I'm not to that point yet. David: I've always been skeptical of that too, Jay. I've always been skeptical of people who say, I love cold calls. But I know they exist. And I've had conversations with people like that, and they tell me why they love them and how great they are at them. And when I hear that, I'm like, congratulations, that's awesome. I'm extremely happy for you. I've never actually learned anything from them, though, that I could really share with other people that would get other people to change their minds. And so for that reason, I've never been one, at any of our trainings, to sort of teach cold calling. Now, have we done it over the years? Absolutely. But it's not something that I feel like, oh, okay, I'm going to put together a course on cold calling because I feel that strongly about it. I don't. I feel more strongly that there are other, better ways of getting recognized and getting noticed, and that's why nearly everything we do in our material is focused on allowing people to do that without necessarily making cold calls. And it's not even really just cold calls. There are certain things that some people hate. Cold calls, posting on social media, engaging in paid advertising, different people hate different things. Now, if you hate all of those things, if you're not going to do anything, then it's going to be more of a challenge to get clients. But generally speaking, you don't have to do everything and it's very likely there are things that you don't like to do, that you won't have to do if you take the time to think things through and come up with a strategy that works better for you. Jay: Yeah, and I think you made such a good point there. There may be somebody who loves cold calls, there may be somebody who's successful, but that's really like a character trait. That's like an individual skill set. So if you think Oh, because this person can do it, then that means I can have five people doing it. I don't know if that's reality, finding five people who love cold calls and are successful at it. And the other thing is that because there are so many other ways to contact people now, a cold call is very surprising to me. It's like, if you didn't send me an email first, that's very strange in today's world. It's changed. David: It really is. You touched on something and this is a bit of an aside from what we're talking about, but I think it's important, which is that there are some people who are wired to do things. There are some people whose personalities are geared toward doing things extremely well. There's a sales trainer that I've known over the years. I met him in a number of trade shows. He's kind of a bigger than life character. He's tall and he's really good looking, very well spoken, very smart, makes excellent presentations. And every time I've seen him, I thought, this guy is made for this. He is built for this. profession. But what I've also noticed is that not everybody's him, right? Not everybody's as tall, not everybody's as good looking, right? Not everybody is, and the list goes on. So I think for the rest of us, for those of us who just need to be able to generate clients, qualify them quickly, get them sold into our process, and keep things moving in our businesses,

This week's episode features fresh tracks from Dirty Culture, Josh Butler, Cinthie, and Erratic. Plus, our Track of the Week is “Joyland” by Mau Maioli & Fugaz. Tune in and enjoy the sounds! Dirty Culture - On You [Vibe Me To The Moon] Mike Millrain - Find Your Soul (Original Mix) [Soul Revolution Records] Music P - Enjoy The Moment [Salted Music] Vittorio Brena - You Cant Man (Original Mix) [HOUPH] Erratic - Resonate (Baar Remix) [Be Positive Records] Piem - Sabor (Original Mix) [Knee Deep In Sound] St. David - It's Just A Dub [REK'D] Trojan - Run This [ORIGINS RCRDS] Soundscape - Feel Me (Original Mix) [Ambiosphere Recordings] Sound Support - That Song (Extended Version) [Toy Tonics] Enzo Siragusa - Last E [fabric Records] Nacho Padilla, VICTORIA WHYNOT - House Hunter [WAREBLUES] Mau Maioli & Fugaz - Pulsação Tropical (Gabi Fischer Remix) [Cocada Music] Josh Butler - Express 128 [ORIGINS RCRDS] Johnny Deep - Dark Villa [Plastic City] Brian Harden - Bliak (2024 Remaster) [Smile For A While] Andrea Maggino - Detroit (Extended Mix) [House 'n Chips] GZZ - Punchy Move [Sure Cuts Records] Mau Maioli & Fugaz - Joyland [Cocada Music] Flytz - Bring It (Original Mix) [KOOKOO RECORDS] Jun Wilder - Telephone (Extended Mix) [Schema (US)] J. Gabriel - This Worked [Onysia] Cinthie - Every Chapter (feat. Robert Owens) [fabric Records] Camilo Do Santos - My Feeling (Original Mix) [Deep Disco Music] Groovadust - Numera Fruta (Original Mix) [Juiced Music] Ken Spieker - I Need It [SOUND SOUND]

When I say your competition isn't that good, what I mean is that a lot of them are not taking the time to learn the things that will allow them to perform better. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I say, your competition isn't that good. Right, Jay? Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Do you even know who your competition is? Do you know what they offer? Do you know what people think of them compared to you? Maybe you don't even know if your competition is that good. David: Exactly. And I hear, so many times, when I'm talking to salespeople, the idea that, there's a lot of competition. Competition is very difficult. There's a lot of online competition. There's a lot of local competition. There's a lot of price-cutting competition. There are all these different variations on competition. And that's all true. But a lot of them really, honestly, just aren't that good. And if you recognize right up front that most businesses are average, right? There's an average in every business, in every industry, there's an average. And some people are better than average. Some people are worse than average. There are a lot of average. So if you're competing with the average or the less than average, then you should be able to do pretty well. If you're a conscientious individual, if you're reasonably good at what you do, if you study and practice your profession and you get reasonably good at it, you'll be able to outperform a lot of them because to the extent that there are really exceptional competitors in your market, there are a lot less of those than there are the ones on the other side. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I've always believed this, you know, you can get caught up in the muck. When I was in radio, I worked for a radio station that had a built in listenership because it was so ingrained in the community. And what that did is it made it so they didn't have to work hard to get sales or to get numbers. Now you would think, oh man, that's an amazing place to be. But what happened is, they started to get complacent, right? Everything was so easy, and then all of a sudden ratings started to shift and suddenly they realized, we don't know how to sell. Because we're so used to sitting at a desk and the phone is ringing. And we're just taking orders. So you're not a salesperson, you're taking orders, right? And their competitors started to eat them alive because their competitors had to sell all the time, and they were very good at it. So sometimes you're successful just in spite of yourself. And that may be what your competitors are in, what state they're in. David: It really could be as simple as that and as difficult as that, in either situation. But, you know, the idea that the competition is excellent, or the competition is terrible, or the competition is average. In a sense, none of it really matters. Because this is life. This is the world that we're in. These are the cards we've been dealt, right? So our competition is there. We're there. The question is, how are we going to make sure that we are outperforming our competition in all the key areas of customer contact? I mean, if you were to boil it down and say, okay, let's say my competition is very good. Let's say you completely disagree with the premise of this podcast, that your competition isn't that good, or that it's average or whatever you say. "No, I've got a lot of competition." Okay, then that's your question. How do you outperform your competition in all key areas of customer contact? Some people may say, "well, I don't know. What are the key areas of customer contact?" And if you're asking yourself that kind of question, that indicates that there's work to be done in your organization. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And do you even know how the competition functions to be able to compare yourself? I mean, that's got to be at least half the battle, right? David: Yeah, that's part of the battle.

Most writers focus on the writing part of copywriting, which only makes sense as we're writers. But maybe we should be doing more copythinking before we start to write. Our guest for the 415th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is A-List Copywriter David Deutsch. And when it comes to thinking about copy, David has few peers. He talked about strategy, writing emotional copy, coming up with big ideas, and much more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: David's website The How to Write Emotional Copy Workshop The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When we started The Copywriter Club Podcast, one of the things we were adamant about was that we would interview copywriters at all levels of experience and at all the various stages of their business journey. So we've spoken with copywriters who are just getting started along with those with years of experience. We've interviewed copywriters who call themselves content writers, strategists, consultants and various other titles. We've heard from marketers and authors and experts in all kinds of fields. In fact we used to start the podcast with the promise that you would listen and walk away with plenty of ideas you could “steal” for your own business. With that background, it's always a thrill to get the opportunity to interview an expert copywriter who has earned his place on the A-List. One of the go-to copywriters when it comes to being coached by one of the very best in the direct response world. Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, and on today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I'm speaking with A-list copywriter David Deutsch. David has generated more than a billion dollars in sales over the course of his career. Not bad. And probably someone we can learn from. You'll hear this in the interview, but one of the things David likes to talk about is the difference between writing and persuasion and copywriting. The two ought to be the same, but often they're not. I know I say this every episode, but I think you're going to like this interview. So stick around. Before we jump in with David… It's October. Which means the year is 3/4 done… we've all got one more quarter to reach the goals we set for our businesses at the beginning of the year. So let me ask you, how is it going? Are you ahead or behind your goals? What can you accomplish in the next 12 weeks that will move your business forward and set you up for a successful 2025… hard to believe the decade is half over… any way in my opinion the best place for copywriters to stretch and reach their goals is The Copywriter Underground, the paid membership with more than 100 hours of training, including an entire course on selling, a mini-course on proposals, more than 27 different templates, including a legal agreement, and so many other resources designed to help you grow. And each month, we invite a different guest expert to teach a new skill… this month's members-only persentation is by Email Marketing Hero Kennedy on creating lead magnets that attract buyers, not freebie seekers to your list. It's the kind of skill that will help you build your own list and make you so much more valuable to your clients. It's happening next week in The Copywriter Underground which you can join at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, let's go to our interview with David… David, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I would love to start with your story. How did you become a direct response copywriter, a copy coach, and I think what some people would even say, you know, original member of the A-list of copywriters that are out there? Tell us how you got there. David Deutsch: Oh, well, thanks. It's great to be here, first of all. And, you know, I started on I don't know how far back to go, but I started my advertising career at Ogilvy and Mather in New York, which was David Ogilvy's agency back when he still occ...

9-1-24 David - It's About Your Relationship with God by LifeSource Church

Testings Prepare for the Wilderness   (audio) David Eells 8/25/24  UBM and the Wilderness Refuge  Eve Brast 6/7/2011  (David's notes in red)  This dream shows spiritual pictures using UBM's broader Internet/TV/radio church getting ready to go into the wilderness. In these pictures the relationship of the Man-child, Bride and the rest of the remnant church is explained along with each respective work.  I had a dream that I was in a small building that was a church. It had white walls and a white ceiling. (Representing a church clothed in righteousness.) The front door was in the back of the church. It was a small single white door. This door led from the side of a shopping mall hallway to the white church. (Christ is the Door which leads away from the shopping mall, representing Babylon's merchandising of buying and selling, and the white church. In John 10 Jesus called His sheep out of the sheepfold of Babylonish religion into a white church, meaning "called out ones") and there was a flight of red metal stairs leading down into the sanctuary. (It takes humbling steps washed in the blood to enter a white church).  The front wall of the church was actually the back and was open; there was no wall. (This church is contrary to Babylon; what is behind them is ahead for them for they have decided to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once [for all] delivered to the saints (Jude 3)). We have placed no religious wall between us and what was given behind us, in the beginning. (Isa.30:19) For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; thou shalt weep no more; he will surely be gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear, he will answer thee.   (20) And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be hidden anymore, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers; (21) and thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it; when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.) It just opened out into an empty parking lot. (Our church is not attended physically in the flesh, but spiritually by radio, Internet and TV. This last part was and will be. Videos. Etc.)  There were about 100 people in chairs facing the back of the church, which was actually the front. (100 represents fullness -- 100%. We are all returning where we came from, and the rest will fall away.) We were all singing praise to God without a "music leader". (Personal, heart-led worship in Spirit and truth as Jesus commanded.) There was a gigantic screen on the wall to the right of us. (Many join us by Internet computer screen or TV screen and watch our videos.) As my children and I were worshipping with our hands raised, Cindy, a friend of mine and a member of our local bible study, came through the white door and down the flight of stairs and found me along the aisle. ("Cindy" means light. The true children of light will come out of Babylon and through the Door of Jesus into the true church.)   She said, "I know I'm late". (Those who are waiting until now are late for the wilderness is upon us.) “I had quite a time with my kids, so I just left them at home, but I just don't care anymore. I just had to come. I know I'll find grace for this". (Those who were considered spiritual fruit in Babylon will have to be left behind if they resist. Those who come out from among them will find grace.) On the screen were colors that reacted to our praise by moving around. David Eells would come on the screen and teach us through the screen normally. (We will teach through Internet, radio and on TV again.)   But this time he surprised us all by showing up in person. (A personal invitation to come follow the David man-child reformers into the wilderness as it was with Jesus and His disciples.) He came out on the stage and stood at a podium. I (Eve) was all of a sudden standing behind him on his right. (This is the spiritual place of the Bride, which Eve represents.) All fell quiet. He spoke two words and then turned around and walked out behind or underneath the staircase. As I (Eve) was left standing on the stage facing the people, they all began turning to one another, murmuring amongst themselves, and consulting with one another and began to slowly leave out the front (back) of the church. (As we have seen, the factious murmurers are separated from the Body before the wilderness refuge.)   They dispersed out into the parking lot which was empty of vehicles. (Gen.3:20) And the man called his wife's name Eve [Hebrew: Havvah; Living or Life]; because she was the mother of all living. God has chosen the Bride company for the last Adam, Jesus Christ, who lives in the Man-child company represented here by the David ministry. This will happen very soon. The Bride is chosen before the last seven days/years which are the marriage feast. After this time the whole party is escorted by the virgins to the Groom's home in Heaven. The people murmur because they are not happy to not be included in the Bride company, but to be included in the true remnant church is still quite an honor. This parable is seen in Song of Solomon and the book of Esther. The remnant church leaves after the revelation of the new Eve to go to the wilderness tribulation.)  The two words David spoke were foreign. I didn't know if all the people understood what he said. I didn't understand the words themselves, but I knew they had the opposite meaning of the words "Terra Delphi". (These words were given to me many years ago in a revelation of the corporate body of the false prophet in the pulpits today and how they pass on their own nature to God's unsuspecting people. The opposite of this is the corporate body of the true prophet, which is Christ in His first-fruits who will pass on the nature of Jesus to His saints in the wilderness. (I will share that revelation below.)  After I watched everyone leave, I turned and followed David through the door under the stairway into his office. (The Bride will have access to the counsel of the Groom through the Man-child.) Cindy had left back up the stairs out the small door and into the mall. (Children of the light will bring the light to Babylon in a great revival.) There was a window that had been behind the stage in the church that looked like a store window on the other side in this shopping mall.  Our small Bible study group was standing around in front of this window. (What many have seen in the window into our meetings through Internet, videos and audios, they will turn and bring to the Babylonish church.) David's office was next to the window with a small door that was open. (A door will open for the Man-child ministry to bring the true Gospel to the Babylonish church.) There were about ten chairs in his office -- no books, or book shelves and no desk. It was a temporary step-up with cubical-like walls. (His books are no longer necessary for the Word of God's law has been written on the heart of the Man-child reformers to instruct the Bride and Church. "10" represents law like the Ten Commandments.) Our group was standing around in the main hall of this shopping mall. We were all talking about what we planned to do with the information that David had given us (those 2 words). (They will bring the Gospel they receive to Babylon in the coming wilderness tribulation, just as Jesus did the bride in a repetition of history.)  I said something to my husband about renting a U-Haul van and he said, "Oh, I've already got that covered. A guy I know sold me one. I got it for a real good price". I told him that was good. In my mind I could see this U-Haul and it was very small and I thought to myself, "I hope that is going to be big enough". But my husband seemed satisfied with its size. (Little will be needed in the wilderness for our husband will provide all.) The Spirit seemed to be telling me in the dream or showing me that He would be going alone, without his wife and children. (Joseph, Moses and Jesus entered the seven years without their families who came later because of their faith and obedience and it will be the same with many of our families.)   I looked at his face as he told me about this U-Haul and he was happy and excited. We were all excited. (Who wouldn't be excited if they knew that God is coming in His people in the great latter rain revival!) Whatever these two words meant to us, it was like we were all moving somewhere soon, but we all had to go home and figure out what to take and how to get there ourselves. Everyone was peaceful and calm and just talking with us and among themselves. They were excited about the two words more than they were concerned about what to take. (God is going to restore the leadership, anointing and truth that will cause the saints to walk fully in the steps of Jesus into the wilderness tribulation. PTL!)  I was not sure whether to pack anything or not. (I.e., What the Bride will need in the wilderness.) I felt a little lost. I walked back into David's office and through the other door into the church onto the stage. As I was looking out onto the empty chairs and parking lot; it was dark. It was dark outside during this entire dream. (Greater darkness will be upon the world when the Bride goes to the wilderness tribulation.) David came up behind me. He told me he had just received a revelation from the Lord that we needed to leave as soon as possible and get away from there. (We must be in the safe place of abiding in Jesus Christ before judgment takes many away.)   He told me that he didn't know exactly where we were to go yet, but that he would let us know the next day. He told me that it was very important to "only go with the clothes on our backs". He said this twice and patted my right shoulder with urgency. (The Bride's provision and protection in the wilderness are the brilliant clothes that she wears, which Rev.19:8 says are "the righteous acts of the saints". This is being dressed up with Jesus as in (Rom.13:12) The night is far spent, and the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. (13) Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. (14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfill] the lusts [thereof].)   He then went back through the door under the stairway. As I looked back out from the stage, Cindy (Children of Light) had returned and came back down the stairs and said, "Well, I tried to go home and think about what to pack, but I only packed a few things because it's just so overwhelming and I know I'll receive grace for this". (If we go without man's provision, grace will be our provision as it was with Jesus' disciples when He sent them out.)  I turned back toward the parking lot and I saw the 100 people sitting in the parking lot with sleeping bags, tents, coolers and blankets. (The complete number, 100%, chosen by God to go into the wilderness.) They had gone home to pack whatever they could manage to carry and were waiting for David to give the word. (The Davids as Moses represent the Man-child to guide God's people in the wilderness.)  I then looked off to the right of the stage and building and was transported to Renee's mobile home. (Renee means "reborn" and she is in a mobile home, which means God's people will be pilgrims and sojourners.) She is a long-time friend from high school. She and her husband were telling me how they had packed up their entire belongings into a large U-Haul and how hard it was to pack everything. (It is hard work to bring our own provision. I was reminded that when we moved to Florida we gave our house and appliances away. Some will have to leave many things behind. But God had provided us a home freely.)   They also told me Renee's mom was giving them a very hard time about moving. I was then transported into the back of a minivan. Renee's mom was driving her around and really spewing all kinds of lies and deception out of her mouth to discourage Renee from going with us. (The mother is the Babylonish religious harlot that we must leave behind) But Renee was staying strong and not allowing her mother to dissuade her. They couldn't see me sitting behind them in this minivan. (The world will call God's people deceived fanatics.) Then I was back on stage in the church.  I thought about my husband and his U-Haul and Renee and her U-Haul. (The small one that was easy on the sojourner and the large one that was hard.) Cindy had even packed a few things along with all the people in the parking lot. (Those who walk in various stages of the light.) There was both dread and excitement in the air. We were all about to leave for the actual wilderness. I felt a little panicked and worried. (There is anticipation for the trials and yet excitement to see God's miraculous provision in the wilderness tribulation.) I hadn't even gone home yet. I remembered what David had said to me as he had patted my shoulder. "Don't leave with anything but the clothes on your back, the clothes on your back!" After that I woke up. (We need only godliness as our provision from God.)    The Revelation of the Terre Delphi   David Eells  False prophets pass on their nature to those who listen to them. (Lev.17:11) For the life (Hebrew: soul) of the flesh is in the blood ...for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life. Men pass on their life (soul) of the sin nature to their children through their blood. Christ passes on His life (soul) and sinless nature through His blood. So how do we get the nature of His blood in us? In John 6:53 Jesus said that we have to drink His blood or we will not have life in us. How do we drink it? Let me explain by using one of Jesus' signs. (Joh.2:11) This beginning of his signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee. The word "sign" indicates a deeper meaning here.   In John 2:1-11 Jesus commanded the servants to fill the six (the number of man) water pots of stone (hardened clay vessels symbolizing man) with water (symbolizing the Word in Eph 5:26); then He turned it into wine (symbolizing the blood in Mat 26:27-29). The moral of the story is that if we are consuming and being filled by the Word of God, the Lord will turn it into the blood or nature of Christ. A clear confirmation of this is stated by John. (1Jn.1:7) If we walk in the light (of the Word), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Joh.6:63)...The words that I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life.   So the Word creates the blood, which is the life or nature. Then our words are spirit and they have the power, if received, to manifest our life in others. (Joh.7:38) He that believeth on me, as the said scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water (spirit words). The key then is receiving words "as the scripture hath said" so that we may pass on God's words which recreate His blood or nature. Another word creates another blood or nature. Have you not seen cult leaders pass on their nature by their words? Have you not seen apostate Christian leaders pass on a "different spirit", preaching "another Jesus", with a "different gospel" (2Co.11:4)? (Pro.18:21) Death and life are in the power of the tongue; And they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.  Many years ago I had a dream that taught this:  I was casting out demons in a church when I noticed that the church building was made all of woodwork. The columns, the walls, everything was all wood grain; and it was all stained with blood. I said to the people, "I'm going to prove to you that this is not the blood of Jesus". Then, addressing the blood, I said, "Go in the name of Jesus", and it disappeared. After this, I noticed on the pulpit, a note; it was fluttering as if to catch my attention. I knew that the pastor of this church had left me the note about himself. It read, "I'm being groomed to be the Terre Delphi".  The interpretation is this: All the demons identified this as a Babylonish church (Rev.18:2). The woodwork symbolized the human nature (2Tim.2:20; Jer.5:14) for men are symbolized as trees. The blood on the wood is the nature of "another Jesus" given to the people through a "different gospel" by a false prophet with a "different spirit" (2Co.11:4). He is coming to maturity as the Terre Delphi. "Terre" means earthly; "Delphi" was a town in ancient Greece famous for the Temple of Apollo and the Delphic Oracle, his false prophet. Apollo was the Greek and Roman god of light, healing, prophecy, music and manly beauty. Sounds very much like a false Jesus. Obviously the false prophet passes on his nature to worship a false Christ in the temple. The earthly false prophet is in many pulpits, reproducing after his own kind. Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and pray for the truth, even if you think that you have it.    Angels Guide to Refuges  Eve Brast - 07/15/2008  ... It was dark outside and it seemed like we had spent the night there. Suddenly, the next morning, late in the morning, a young man with short brown hair burst through the front glass door and braced it open with his foot and said very excitedly, "David said it's time to go to the wilderness!" We (our UBM study group) all hurried out into the parking lot with the kids and a supersonic noise got my attention. (This represents UBM study groups and families all over who are waiting for this direction.) I thought it was a jet plane flying overhead. As I looked up into the sky there were no clouds and the sky was blue, and about 11:00 AM. I saw an arrow-shaped vapor trail just clearing the mall on my right, high up in the sky and flying overhead toward the left horizon. It went all the way around the world (To give direction to saints around the world.) and then I watched it come up from the horizon ahead of me and I followed it overhead and turned around to watch it head down the horizon behind me, but it stopped 30 degrees up from the horizon and faced us. We realized it wasn't a jet but an angel. He had golden, curled hair and a simple white robe with a thin gold rope around his waist. He motioned with his right arm and forefinger to follow him in that direction. So, we all started to walk in that direction. Then I woke up. (The angels will guide the saints to wilderness refuges.) (The arrow-shaped vapor trail cleared the roof of the mall from the east, heading west down past the horizon, around the world and came up the northern horizon and headed over our heads toward the southern horizon, then stopped 30 degrees from the southern horizon. Our UBM group then all began to walk toward the direction of the south, following the angel.) Our UBM group was located in Texas, which means Friends. (When the people of God left Egypt to go to the wilderness refuge from the Beast they went south first and then went north to their Promised Land.) I felt in the dream that this angel was showing multiple groups of people at the same time around the world where their refuges were.)  Note from David: It was an angel of God that guided Israel into the wilderness place of safety from the beast kingdom (Exo.12:37; 13:20; 14:19). I believe God's angels will do this for UBM and saints all over the world. Three angels in Rev.14:6-9 preach the Gospel, warn of judgment, the fall of Babylon, and the Mark of the Beast, from mid heaven... and all of this before the middle of the tribulation.  The Lord will have us use the Starlink satellites to reach the population of Earth with this same message and will guide the elect to the wilderness refuges. Satellites are also commonly called "birds". (Rev.12:13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man [child]. (14) And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.     Entering the Cleft  Anonymous 2/05/2011  (David's notes in red)   (This dream came just before the faction began in 2011 and is accurate.) I had a dream where I stood in front of an expansive outdoor scene. It was a nice sunny day. The ground was rough, rocky and not much grass. What grass there was, was dry with little green. In front of me and to the left was a huge black mountain face with a narrow crack or cleft straight down the center of it. Sunlight streamed from inside the cleft and it looked like it was a very nice day beyond that cleft. This cleft was just wide enough for one person to walk through with maybe a regular size backpack on.  At the bottom of the cleft in the mountain, was a rather narrow path only wide enough for one person to walk. (We are individually responsible to stay on the narrow road of God's Word so we can go to the cleft of the rock of safety, Jesus.) It ran from left to right and made a gentle arch to the right and on out of view. I watched as a single-file line of local UBM folks, who are already here in TN, made their way walking at a regular pace from right to left heading directly toward the cleft in the rock. The people walking along carried no baggage. I saw no backpacks, no walking sticks, no suitcases, no canes or walking aids of any kind. We were all dressed quite casually like we usually dress for our fellowships.   I was near the front of this line of people, BUT I was the only person who was not actually on the path. Somehow I was about 2-and-a-half feet lower than the narrow path, trying to step up onto the path. I was standing in roughly torn up dirt and rocky ground that looked all around like the earth had been torn up by an earthquake. There was no sure footing around me and though I only needed to make it two steps to get up onto the little highway, I could not get a proper foothold to step up. I kept lifting my left leg to get the first step up, but found myself falling back onto my right foot again without making any progress to even take one full step up to the road.   I was right at the road and just two steps and I would be on the raised narrow path. But I just could not get a foothold to get enough oomph, so to speak, to make it up onto the road. Neither the first person in line nor any of the others coming along after would be able to give me a hand up because the path was so narrow, there would be risk that they could topple over themselves. There was no banister to reach out to grab hold of and retain a foothold if I could even gain one.   The idea of scampering or scrambling up using hands and feet did not occur to me either (... and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your loins ... Ephesians 6:13,14). The idea of backing up and getting a running start to run up the tiny embankment I needed to climb up was also not an option as, again, the path was so narrow that a running start would give too much momentum and you'd just end up overrunning the narrow path and tumble over the other side into more ravines and ground sloping downward.  As I watched myself try again and again to step up onto the road and fail, I had such a feeling of dread. “Why, oh why could I not make that step?” The others would surely pass me by and they could not help at all as help was impossible due to the narrowness of the way. They were within 40 steps of that cleft in the rock. We were all so close, within just a few, maybe 40 steps and we would enter the cleft. I so wanted to be up on that road and my worry and dread was increasing and my heart sinking that I would not make it.   This dream was shared with the local UBM fellowship that Saturday afternoon. It had a different effect on every person hearing my explanation of it. For me, I wondered about possible issues in my own personal life that could keep me outside of that cleft. Some identified with that and like me, sense a warning to be watchful and make whatever changes in heart or mind are necessary to make that last step back onto the path again. Others felt confirmation that they are indeed still on the narrow path and all is well.  The last part of this dream was removed from our site by a person who fell into faction, while building our site, because it condemned them. However, I recall very well that there were people on that path who we now know fell away to faction and slander when tested. They were all in armor as though they were making war, which was against us. As they approached the cleft of the rock they all stumbled against one another and fell to the ground and their helmets fell over their eyes to blind them. They never made it to the safety and provision of the cleft of the rock. Psa 101:5  Whoso privily slandereth his neighbor, him will I destroy: Him that hath a high look and a proud heart will I not suffer. They have all been destroyed, except a few who were reformed because they barely entered into the deception.   Tested to Be in the Ark  Anonymous  5/21/2016  (David's notes in red)  I was with a group of people. We had just gone through some very challenging circumstances in which I felt we had escaped with our lives. (We escaped the faction dismemberment that took out those not accounted worthy to be in the Bride.) I was unable to remember the details of what took place, but I knew that it was cataclysmic in nature and that we had survived and made it through. (We had overcome in the faction test of brotherly love. (Rev.3:7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia (The city of brotherly love, the Bride, one of seven daughters like Moses' wife.) write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth (They have been given the key of David to bind and loose, open and shut.):   (8) I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. (9) Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie (they claim to be Christian); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (10) Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.   (11) I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. (12) He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem (Bride), which cometh down out of heaven (born from above through obedience to the Word) from my God, and mine own new name.  We ended up on a ship that seemed to be a "safe haven" for survivors. (The ship or ark in the land is a refuge for those who pass the faction test of brotherly love. The Lord showed us this refuge through many dreams, visions, prophecies and Scriptures.) All on board were grateful to be there. (Amen!) Myself, as well as a woman (whom I do not know), were there tending to a group of children (getting them settled in) on the ship. (Both the spiritual and physical children of the obedient righteous are favored of the Lord. (Pro.20:7) A righteous man that walketh in his integrity, Blessed are his children after him. (Psa.112:2) His seed shall be mighty upon earth: The generation of the upright shall be blessed. (1Co.7:14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in the brother: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. The whole Bible is full of these verses, we shared recently.)  As we were doing this, we were talking about all the things we had just gone through. (Learning how to escape being devoured by the faction dragon through obedience to the Word.) The woman was concerned about the threat of some aspect of what we had just survived. I said, "I don't think we need to be as concerned about that as much as them". (The factious were rejected from the boat in the land/ark and many have physically died. The factious leaders died by the hand of God. This was witnessed by 14 people. Unlike those who are permitted to remain in the boat. One of the witnesses is writing a book of this amazing story.)   As I said this, I was looking either out a window or maybe off the deck of the ship. I saw a large crowd of people standing there, wanting to get on board but they could not. They were all visibly sick and desperate to get on board. (The faction want to escape the coming judgments but cannot without repentance.) Either the ship had not yet left the dock or we were still really close to land. (The ship had not left yet because it is the earthquakes that separate it from the land and that is by miles, not feet.) There were security measures that had to be met before anyone could step foot onto the ship. (They must pass the tests of brotherly love.)  It was then that we realized that there had been an outbreak of a disease or virus and that all those people were sick and contagious. They looked very sick and unhealthy. (The factious people are spiritually sick and contagious to those who live in sin or do not love. (Gal.5:9) A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.) It was at this time that the woman was tending to some children when a young black girl walked up to her and just started acting very crazy and threatening. (The ship is spiritual and this black girl is spiritual. She represents one who walks in darkness and not in light. (1Jn.1:7) but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.)  She was very obviously sick with the virus. She became aggressive toward the woman. (The aggression they feel is that of the demons that infest them.) So the woman pulled out a can of mace or pepper spray or something and sprayed her in the face. The black girl ran off. We realized that she was sick and had somehow gotten through security and gotten on the ship. (This has happened as a test for those on the ship, but it has been less and less as the infected leave the ship or die as they have been doing, leaving a sanctified Bride.)  Then the scene changed and I was back at my home where I grew up (in his Father's house). There was a black kitten that got into the house. (This represents that rebellion against the Word and darkness that got into Father's house and must be thrown out.) It was really playful and seemed harmless. I was thinking of the viral outbreak in the earlier part of the dream and had a thought that possibly the kitten had been exposed to it and could possibly be contagious. (Gal.5:9) A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. My thought was to get it out of the house before anyone got bitten or scratched. I tried to grab it but it ran. (When the demons are exposed, they always get offended and run.)  Eventually, I cornere it and decided to just grab it and get it out of there. I found myself thinking that I would rather take the risk of getting bitten myself than for someone else to get bitten. I grabbed the kitten and, sure enough, it scratched and bit me in the process. (As long as a person obeys the commands of God concerning factious people, they are immune. Demons must have legal rights which are disobedience to the Word. (Tit.3:10) A factious man after a first and second admonition refuse; (11) knowing that such a one is perverted, and sinneth, being self-condemned.   (Rom.16:7) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them. (18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent. (2Jn.8) Look to yourselves, that ye lose not the things which we have wrought, but that ye receive a full reward. (9) Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son.   (10) If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: (11) for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works. (Jas.3:16) For where jealousy and faction are, there is confusion and every vile deed.) Then I woke up. (Unfortunately this person thought he could handle the cat, representing the faction, instead of being obedient to the commands to stay separate and was scratched and infected. He destroyed his family and died by the hand of the Lord.)   Wilderness Trials  David Eells 8/18/24    We are children of the last Adam, Jesus Christ. We are a new-creation man, meant to live above this world, and to walk in His ways and His steps, and that includes going into the “wilderness.” Let's read (Mat.4:1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (2) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he afterward hungered. (3) And the tempter came and said unto him, If thou art the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.   (4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (5) Then the devil taketh him into the holy city; and he set him on the pinnacle of the temple, (6) and saith unto him, If thou art the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and, On their hands they shall bear thee up, Lest haply thou dash thy foot against a stone.   (7) Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God. (8) Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (9) and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (11) Then the devil leaveth him; and behold, angels came and ministered unto him.     Jesus went through a 40-day wilderness trial before He overcame and then He brought God's people in His day through their wilderness. In our day, those who are in the First-fruits corporate body each go through their individual wilderness first; that's where they learn to walk in the principles of the Kingdom, which is the purpose of the wilderness. Moses was a First-fruits. He went through a 40-year wilderness before he overcame and then he went on to bring God's people through their own wilderness.   Many people don't understand that the wilderness is available to every Christian worldwide because the wilderness is not some physical location to which we go; it's a place in the Spirit. It's a place where we no longer depend upon the world and the principles of the world. It's a place where we are, instead, ruled by the principles of the Kingdom. We no longer trust in the world for our sustenance, our salvation, our healings, our deliverances, and so on. Scripture tells us that most of the Israelites who left Egypt never learned that lesson: (Psa.78:19) Yea, they spake against God; They said, Can God prepare a table in the wilderness? When they could no longer depend upon the flesh-pots of Egypt, they murmured continually. They found it hard to trust in the living God.    The Israelites, are just a type and a shadow for us. They went into a literal wilderness, but our wilderness is spiritual. Everybody who walks by faith goes into the wilderness. It's not by legalism put on us by others, its only by faith. Everybody who walks by faith in the commands and principles and promises of God automatically gives up salvation by works. The promises of God are for the whole man. They are meant to save us completely in spirit, soul, body and circumstance, and they are meant to do that totally outside the principles of this world.   As a matter of fact, He even gave us promises that are all-inclusive: (Mar.11:24) Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them (The original Greek word there is past tense.), and ye shall have them. Why does Jesus tell us to believe we have already received them? It's because everything that has to do with the salvation that the Lord gave us has already been accomplished. (1Pe.2:24) Who his own self bare our sins (that's past tense because it happened behind us) in his body upon the tree, that we, having died (that's past tense) unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed. Again, the word there is past tense.   All of the promises that have to do with the sacrifice of Christ on the cross are past tense. (Eph.2:8) For by grace have ye been saved (That's what it says in the original; it's past tense.) through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory. You have been saved! (Col.1:13) Who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the son of his love. You have been delivered out of the power of darkness. (Rom.6:18) And being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. (11) Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. You were made free from sin!   When you realize that the Lord has already done this, there is nothing you can do of yourself to bring it to pass. You have to walk by faith in the fact that it is already accomplished. We enter into the New Testament “rest,” which many Christians erroneously think is a Saturday or a Sunday, but let's take a close look at what Scripture says about this “rest.” (Heb.4:1) Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. You see, the promises cause us to enter the rest because the promises are past tense and when you believe them you have to stop your own works to try to bring them to pass. (3) For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said....   When you believe these promises, you enter into the rest. For instance, you cannot do anything to get healed, if you believe you were healed. The reason men run to man to get healing is because they don't believe Jesus has already healed them, but I'm telling you something that I know. For the past 50-plus years, I've been receiving healing because I realize that I don't have to do anything to bring it to pass. All I have to do is thank God for it. (Heb.13:8) Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday and to-day, [yea] and forever. He still heals everyone who comes to Him by faith. If you accept that you were healed at the cross and you are not harboring unforgiveness or in any willful sin, then there's nothing that can keep you from receiving your healing.     (Heb.4:9) There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. The word “sabbath” there is the Greek word sabbatismos and it doesn't mean “a day of rest.” It means “a continual keeping of rest.” This is the true Sabbath that remains for the people of God. We have to cease from our own works everyday. (10) For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. God doesn't want our works; He doesn't believe in salvation by works. Whether you are talking about your spirit, your soul, your body or your circumstances, salvation is not by self-effort.     The apostle Paul also taught us, (2Co.12:9) And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for [my] power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. You see, when we get out of the business of trying to save ourselves, God's very powerful to do it for us, just as He did for Paul, who went through a lot of trials because of the “thorn in the flesh” that was given to him. (7) And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.     People like to say that the “thorn in the flesh” was a disease of the eyes or some other disability, but the Scripture plainly tells us that it was “a messenger of Satan to buffet” him and Paul lists for us these “buffetings”: (2Co.11:23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as one beside himself) I more; in labors more abundantly, in prisons more abundantly, in stripes above measure, in deaths oft. (24) Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one. (25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day have I been in the deep;    (26) [in] journeyings often, [in] perils of rivers, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils from [my] countrymen, [in] perils from the Gentiles, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren; (27) [in] labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. (28) Besides those things that are without, there is that which presseth upon me daily, anxiety for all the churches. He was brought into all those situations through weakness and in Paul's weakness God was made powerful. (29) Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is caused to stumble, and I burn not? (30) If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things that concern my weakness.  We need to do the same thing; we need to be weak to save ourselves. Many Christians today don't receive the deliverance they need because they keep trying to save themselves by their own efforts. Yet, what did Paul say? (2Ti.3:10) But thou didst follow my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, (11) persecutions, sufferings. What things befell me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. Why is that? It's because Paul was being weak in that he wasn't trying to save himself. He gave himself into the hands of God because he believed the promises of God; he believed the Lord would always deliver him.    (2Ti.4:17) But the Lord stood by me, and strengthened me; that through me the message might be fully proclaimed, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. (18) The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] the glory forever and ever. Amen. And when Paul said the Lord would “save” him, he meant he would be saved like the Bible uses the word for “saved,” which is the Greek sozo. The word sozo is used for every manner of salvation of spirit, soul, body and circumstance. Sozo is used for deliverance from demons, for healing the body, for salvation of the soul and so on.     It's the same word the disciples used when they cried out to Jesus as their boat was sinking: (Mat.8:23) And when he was entered into a boat, his disciples followed him. (24) And behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the boat was covered with the waves: but he was asleep. (25) And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Save (that's the word sozo), Lord; we perish. (26) And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. (27) And the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him? They said, “Save, Lord,” and He saved them.     “The Lord will deliver me from every evil work.” Do you believe that? We're supposed to be going into a wilderness now. You can choose to enter into it by faith, by trusting in the promises of God, because God cannot fail you, if you believe in His promises. Or you can be forced into it, along with the Church, in the coming Tribulation. If you walk by faith now, then you are walking into that spiritual wilderness and I want to tell you that the wilderness is not as bad as you've heard.     The Lord told me many years ago, “I'm sending you through a wilderness, so that you can tell My people that I still supply there,” and He has proven that to me over and over by putting me in a position of weakness. For instance, the disciples never took up offerings for themselves; they only took up offerings for other people, so the Lord wouldn't let me take up offerings. He wouldn't let me tell anybody my personal needs. He wouldn't let me store up my treasures on earth. He wouldn't let me borrow money. He wouldn't let me sell things. He wouldn't let me take any government benefits. And through all of that, I haven't worked for man and I haven't taken worldly benefits.     God has faithfully sustained me; He's paid for everything all along the way. He put me in a wilderness, but it has nothing to do with a physical wilderness and He's never failed to meet our needs. I've shared with you before how I raised five children: they didn't know doctors, they didn't know medicine, they didn't know anything but the power of God. And God always fed them, except for one time when the Lord put the trial of a fast on them. For all of these years, God has faithfully fed us, paid our bills, made sure our lights stayed on, made sure our gas stayed on and so on. He's been totally, 100% faithful.     Yes, we are all going into a wilderness, but it's one that God made and He made it for our good. He is separating us from the world. He is behind the Beast kingdom and He is bringing the mark of the Beast (Revelation 3:17) to force us into this coming wilderness. The whole world is going to hate us. We won't have the help of “Egypt,” just as Israel didn't have the help of Egypt. We are going to be thrust upon the mercy and grace of God, and the only thing we really need to be sustained is to repent of our sins and believe His Word. And when we do that, we also should expect that we will be tried.   When you are tried over and over, and you see each time that God is faithful, you enter into the rest. You just hold fast to your confession and hold fast to the Word. You don't even worry about your trial anymore. You just rest in Him because you become hardened to your flesh, hardened to the world, hardened to temptation, and hardened to sin. (Rom.5:3) And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness (“patience”).    As a matter of fact, I've enjoyed the tribulation. The tribulation is trial on the flesh, but it's so neat to see God being a personal God and loving you enough to look after everything. That's what He really wants to do. He doesn't want to share His glory with man, which He's been having to do because His people always run to the world. They always run to Egypt and its methods and its ways.     Well, the Lord put me and my family in the wilderness and I'd like to share a few testimonies of how the Lord has been faithful to sustain us. The Lord actually multiplied food for us in more ways than one. Once we had run out of everything in the house, except for some spaghetti, so my wife cooked up a pot of spaghetti and we prayed over that pot because we didn't have anything else. But I want you to know that we weren't even considering that God wasn't going to bring any more for us to eat because He had been doing this for us for quite some time. Anyway, my wife cooked up this fairly big pot of spaghetti and it was about three-quarters full when we blessed it and we started eating. We probably ate that pot down to lower than halfway and when we were done, we didn't think about it, we just shoved that pot into the refrigerator.     The next day, when we took it back out and my wife lifted the lid, we saw that God had refilled the pot! She said, “David, do you remember that the spaghetti was down to here?” And she made a mark on the side. I said, “Yes, I remember.” Folks, the Lord had replaced everything we had eaten. God is awesome! You can't get anywhere where He can't supply. Think about those Israelites. He brought those Israelites water out of a rock. God can bring you water in the middle of a wilderness (Exodus 17:1-7; Numbers 20:2- 13), He can pay your taxes out of a fish's mouth (Matthew 17:24-27), He can bring you flesh out of the sky (Exodus 16:1-13; Numbers 11:18-20; 31-34) and bread out of the sky (Exodus 16:14-36; Numbers 11:7-9). Now, if our God can bring several million Israelites through a wilderness like that and feed them, just think what He can do with us, who are actually filled with His Spirit!     Another experience we had, that I thought was even more awesome, made me realize that you really cannot get anywhere God can't feed you. (Php.4:19) And my God shall supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. If our God will supply our every need according to His riches in glory, then it has nothing to do with the economy and nothing to do with our surroundings. Even if you're in a desert, it has nothing to do with any of that. God made the promise; He's the One Who stands behind it and He will take care of you.   On this occasion, we came to another situation where we had run out of everything in the house and my wife asked, “What are we going to do?” I said, “Well, the Lord sent us here,” and she agreed. She said, “Yes.” So I told her, “You set the table and we'll go sit down at the table, and we'll eat.” So she did that and then she and I and our five children sat down around the table with these empty plates in front of us, and I prayed a simple prayer, really the only kind I know. I prayed, “Father, You sent us here and we're asking You to please fill these plates or fill our tummies.” That's just the way it came out of my mind and I'm sure the Lord put it in there because He wanted to show me something. (Php.2:13) For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.    And so the prayer had no sooner come out of my mouth when my oldest son said, “Dad, I'm full. I don't need to eat.” It wasn't long before another one said it, then another one, then another one and then I realized I was full, too. I thought, “Isn't that something!” He filled up all of us while we were just sitting there at the table. So you can't get anywhere where He cannot feed you.   Then there was one time I decided I wanted to grow tomatoes. It wasn't the Lord; I made that decision on my own. God didn't call me to grow tomatoes; He called me to study the Word of God and go out and share it with His people. But I just decided, “Well, I'll take on this hobby. I'll plant some tomatoes.”   Now, the house we lived in at that time was under big oak trees and we didn't have any sunshine in my yard, except for one place, so I planted the tomatoes in five-gallon buckets. That way, I could move them to keep them in the sun as the season went on. Soon, lots of little tomatoes popped out, but they didn't hardly get to be any size at all before the birds came and just took them all away. And I asked, “Lord, why did You let that happen?” The Lord answered, “I didn't call you to plant tomatoes; that was your idea. I have other things for you to do. Now get about what I told you to do.” So, of course, I told Him, “Yes, Sir!” and I never said anything to anybody about trying to grow my own tomatoes.     Well, the very next day, a lady who was acquainted with us was going to a local tomato farm to get tomatoes for her family and while she was out there picking these monster tomatoes, the Lord spoke to her and said, “I want you to pick a bag of these for David Eells.” She said, “Okay.” And she brought me a big bag of the largest, most luscious-looking tomatoes I'd seen in a long, long time. You know, the Lord was kind of rubbing my nose in it when the lady brought me those tomatoes the next day and I thought to myself, “I really couldn't have grown anything like those, Lord.” I had to come to that place of weakness before He would do this miracle.   We've also often prayed for very specific things and the Lord has always done miracles for us. One morning, we prayed for Him to send us poultry, mayonnaise and cheese. We asked Him for those three things and we didn't tell anybody, not a soul. This is the way God gets the glory. I remember a brother many years ago, who was an elder in the Church with me. He used to be a part of the prosperity movement, where the people would brag out in public about what God was going to do. They would tell everybody, “I'm believing God for this,” or, “I'm believing God for that,” so eventually someone else in the congregation would feel like they had to have compassion on their brother in “need” and they would bring it to them. God doesn't get any glory from that.     When you ask God for something, just believe Him. Then, when it comes, He gets the credit. So we didn't tell anybody about our needs, but that day and the next day, all three of those things came. We had a friend who was going out of town and she had this large jar of mayonnaise that she didn't want to leave in her refrigerator until she came back, so she brought it over to us. And then another person brought us a turkey and the cheese. It was exactly what we asked from God. You may wonder, “Would God do that for me, David?” I guarantee you He would. God is no respecter of persons.    (Act.10:34) And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. God is a respecter of faith, but He's no respecter of persons. He won't do anything for me that He won't do for you. I'm just trying to teach you how to be weak and to exercise faith at the same time, so that you are in this ideal position in the wilderness to see miracles from God. We've received so many over the years, I've forgotten most of them, but I can tell you that He consistently met our needs and we saw many, many miracles.   I like to share this next story because it tickles me. My children all wanted to go camping one day, but when I was a kid, I did so much camping, I've had enough of it. I like my bed and I was making up excuses. Well, I'd been back there before, walking through the woods where they wanted to go, and finally I told them, “There's nothing there to start a fire with and, really, we don't have any permission to cut down any of those trees back there,” but they were begging me, “Awww, Daddy, please.” So I gave in and we packed up our tents and other gear, and we took off into the woods.    Now, there was a downed tree in the little opening in the woods that we picked for our campsite and I want you to know that downed trees were hard to find in those woods. We set up our tents and I sent out the kids to go gather firewood, but everything they dragged back was either rotten, or little twigs and branches, or pieces of tree bark. I told them, “That stuff just makes smoke; it doesn't really make fire.” And I sent them out again, and while I was waiting, I walked a little bit away from the camp. I was kind of praying, asking the Lord to provide for us and I had told them earlier that there was nothing to use for a fire and we couldn't cut down other people's trees. Well, I had walked maybe 20 or 30 feet away from the tent when I came across this little lump on the ground.     The floor of those woods was completely covered with leaves and this was just a lump in the leaves, but when I kicked it as I walked through it, I hit something solid. So I backed up and raked all the leaves off, and there was a pillowcase on the ground. I pulled the pillowcase back and there was a Poulan chainsaw on the ground. I thought, “Wow! Wouldn't it be something if this would crank?” because we had a downed tree right there by the campsite. Sure enough, it cranked. I cut up enough wood to have a really good fire the whole time we were there. I tell you, when that chainsaw cranked and I cut up that wood, I was thinking, “I'm sorry, Lord! Forgive me! I repent, because I said You couldn't supply us with wood back here.”     God had somebody plant a chainsaw out in the middle of the woods so it would be there waiting for us because God sees the end from the beginning. He doesn't dwell in time; He has no problem meeting your needs. He will have it there when you get there. (Isa.65:24) And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. See, He answers before we call and He can have our provision already there or He can manufacture it. It makes no difference to Him.    When Jesus brought the disciples into the wilderness, He multiplied the food there. (Mat.14:15) And when even was come, the disciples came to him, saying, The place is desert (The Greek word there is eremia and it can be translated as “desert,” “wilderness” or “uninhabited place.”), and the time is already past; send the multitudes away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves food. (16) But Jesus said unto them, They have no need to go away; give ye them to eat. (17) And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes. (18) And he said, Bring them hither to me.    (19) And he commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass; and he took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples to the multitudes. (20) And they all ate, and were filled: and they took up that which remained over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full. (21) And they that did eat were about five thousand men, besides women and children. Jesus was raising up disciples. He was the teacher and He was showing them, “This is how you do it.” Then they went off into their tribulation, the Book of Acts, and they repeated what they saw. The Man-child, Who was Jesus then, was God's provision in the wilderness and, folks, nothing has changed. God's going to do it again; He's just going to repeat it with a larger group of people. Since we didn't have a big worldly income, we prayed for everything and God brought it. Back before I started full-time in ministry, we decided we were going to stop using money for the things that we needed. Instead, we started praying for what we needed and we saw God just do miracles. Things we would normally buy with money, we prayed for and God would bring them. Any money we had, we would use for His Kingdom. Folks, there are different ways you can enter into the wilderness, but all of them give you confidence in God's faithfulness. You'll find that God's going to be there and He's going to supply your needs. If you need something, pray for it. Put faith in God. It honors Him and it builds your faith. Amen! 

What do we want the overall customer experience to be like? How do we want this person to be welcomed if they happen to walk into our business? Because we want that experience to be consistent. That's another important aspect of this. The businesses that really consider their customer experience want to make sure that it is absolutely consistent. David: Hello and welcome back in today's podcast. Co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing crafting the customer experience. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David. And I feel like here once again I'm going to learn something from our discussion because I don't think a lot about crafting the experience. For me, it's like, Hey, we had a sales call. Now you're a client and we'll just fake it until we make it, I guess. David: Right. And that is certainly a way to do it. It's certainly valid. I believe it's probably what many businesses do, perhaps most. The thing that actually got me thinking about this was a trip that I took to Disney World a number of years ago. And I thought about how every aspect of the experience is crafted. It is thought out in advance. It's planned. It's choreographed. There is very little, ideally, that happens there by accident. And at the time, I thought, "wow, as a business, if we were able to craft a similar sort of experience for our customers, what would that look like?" I've done presentations on this topic over the years. It's something that a lot of businesses tend not to think about, but when I raise the issue with them, they seem to feel that it's pretty appealing and interesting. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny you bring up Disney World or amusement parks. I remember being a little kid and going to an amusement park, and I thought even the staff members were installed as part of the experience. I was amazed when I realized they actually went home after work. And then I ended up working at that very same amusement park on the backside, you know, where all the employees walk? It's so disappointing! David: It's got to be. Jay: Yeah, absolutely, and I think this is one of those topics where we're not talking about, boom, one day you've got the customer experience defined. I think this is a process. It's going to be very different from when you first open your doors, so to speak, because it is something that you should always be fine tuning, correct? David: Yeah, and we can't even fine tune it if we're not thinking about it. If we basically show up for work every day and do what we do, then we're doing what we do. We're not considering what the customer experience is. If you just take the title of this podcast to heart and say, "okay, what if I did want to craft the customer experience? What would that look like?" What happens if somebody calls our business on the phone, what happens? Is it a person who answers? Is it an auto attendant? If so, what does that auto attendant say? Is it encouraging to help people get where they need to go? Is it discouraging? Is it likely to put them off? Something as simple as that, that's one aspect of the customer experience. This is what happens when someone calls us on the phone. This is what happens if someone visits our physical location. This is what happens when I meet someone on a Zoom call or in an in-person situation. Every single aspect of the experience, if it is considered, if it's even thought about, is likely to be a whole lot better than if we're just winging it. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. And I think one of the problems, David, is self-awareness. I think about this in sports. Like when all my daughters played sports and there were players and parents of players who didn't really understand their individual skill set and they thought they were much better than they were. Because of that, they didn't ever progress because they thought they had reached whatever marker that needed to be. They're kind of prideful about it.

Patrick Madrid dives into parenting decisions on hair color and attire, emphasizing the underlying messages and the importance of modesty. He explores the significance of praying for souls at cemeteries, including teaching children to understand and embrace Catholic traditions. Lastly, he tackles the profound question of how to know God as the infinite creator.    Supreme Court sends Trump immunity case back to lower court, dimming chance of trial before election (00:31) Steve - There's a really horrible haircut called the broccoli cut and I wonder what your thoughts are since you lived through the 80s. (02:55) Email – I was disappointed that you said some people want to be homeless and on drugs David - It had been 40 years since my last confession and I felt like I had to go through a lot just to find a confession time. Gracie 10-years-old - I know the Eucharist is real, but why doesn't the Eucharist look like Jesus' real flesh? (26:43) Vicky – Do I still receive the blessing from the Mass if I'm watching a recording? (29:48) Elizabeth (email) – No Thy Self Kelly - Is there an avenue for the county or state to stop abusing the elderly? Seems like Biden is being abused and being forced to run for re-election. (34:31) Email – Why wouldn't you let your daughters dye their hair an unnatural color? (40:32) Sam (Email) – Should we make the Sign of the Cross when we pass a cemetery? (45:29) Cathy - How do we know that God is infinite and that He created the universe? (47:45)

Maintenance is often the most challenging area in a property management business. What if you could automate your maintenance workflow with an in-house, expert AI maintenance coordinator? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David from Vendoroo (formally Tulu) to talk about AI maintenance coordination and how it could revolutionize the property management industry. You'll Learn [05:25] The AI Revolution [10:51] What can AI Maintenance Coordination Do? [20:58] How Vendoroo Handles Work Orders [27:56] Why You Should Have in-House Maintenance [37:30] Where do Humans Step in? [41:37] Handling Worst-Case Scenarios Tweetables “Property management is a very human business. It's a very relationship-driven business.” “Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives.” “Residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager.” “The first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] David: Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control.  [00:00:24] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high, trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:05] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:25] And now let's get into the show. All right. So today I'm hanging out with David Normand and Reza Keshavarzi. Did I say your last name right?  [00:01:36] David: We always say it sounds like the great sauce that you would put on a steak. Keshavari. So delicious. [00:01:41] Jason: All right.  [00:01:41] David: Yes. Cool.  [00:01:43] Jason: So David and Reza are from a company called Tulu, which we'll be getting into, which I think are probably revolutionizing maintenance related to AI and our topic today, we're going to be talking about AI and maintenance coordination, maybe getting into some of the current maintenance challenges, what AI could help with, what should be automated, what shouldn't be automated because I think that's a very important thing to cover and how to turn maintenance into a profit center. Before we get into that, why don't we get into some background? So David, why don't you give us the journey? How did you two get into this? How did you event like, how did you start your journey in the property management space? [00:02:24] David: Yeah, great. It's crazy to think about it. It just all started probably about 15 years ago. Like many of you, started a property management company with a buddy of mine. I remember we started off with 80 doors. Got our 1st client, was excited. He left his job at Verizon. I was actually in the banking industry, bidding on subprime auto loans and the 2008 crash happened. And so we all knew what happened after that. And so anyway we actually had some tremendous success and in just over four years we added over 600 doors. Which was a phenomenal growth in our market. And we had a lot of people going, "Hey, what's your secret sauce? what are you guys doing?" Right. And the reality was, is that we just cared, right? We cared harder. We had fiduciary duty. And all of these owners were leaving their other property managers and saying, "Hey, Maybe these guys have it figured out," and we were getting conversions and our close rate was like 80%. [00:03:13] It was really crazy, but something happened and just like many of us, owners started getting frustrated feeling like, the magic was wearing off because at the end of the day, no matter how hard we worked. Those owner statements and those maintenance invoices at the end of the month, I realized were the main source of friction between those long lasting relationships and the same reason why somebody left that previous property manager to come over for the hope of more transparency and maintenance was the same issue that we ran into. [00:03:41] Right. So that led me on this journey of trying to figure out, how do we standardize our fiduciary duty to owners when it comes to maintenance and help them bring transparency and education and understanding to what I feel is really the cornerstone foundation of what a great relationship is? Because no, the building can be full, the mortgage can be paid, but those maintenance bills still come in and there's still the questions.  [00:04:06] "Why does this cost this much? So I had some great opportunities to work went on with Fannie Mae helped them manage their rental portfolio, but still in the back of my head, wanted to try to solve this issue. And all these years later, I get a phone call from somebody that said, "Hey, you need to meet this guy, Reza. He's in the HOA industry. And he's seen a similar issue with lack of transparency. And I think that you guys are trying to solve the same issue. Hey, why don't you meet up?" And I'll, and I'll preface this. This was the fourth introduction to a guy in a fourth type of tech or a company that we try to part with. [00:04:40] And it just shows you the journey of an entrepreneur. Like you never know when that right connection that's going to align with your passions, resources, and understanding happens. And I actually had three other techs that didn't work out before. And I didn't want to bring them to market. [00:04:52] Right. So that's our story. We got introduced to each other and the synergies have been fantastic. And I'm really excited to talk about what we're doing here in the space. So it's been a crazy journey. It's been exciting. Maybe one day I'll write a book down the road about all the things not to do. [00:05:04] Jason: I think every entrepreneur that has a little bit of success could write that book. I'm sure. So cool. David, where do you think we should start? Like there's a revolution right now, this AI revolution, like it's AI everywhere. And and it's moving fast.  [00:05:21] David: Yes.  [00:05:21] Jason: Like really fast. [00:05:22] And it's a bit crazy. And. Everything's changing. There's a million software tools and companies coming out. Maybe AI is making all of them. I have no idea, but like...  [00:05:31] David: 85 percent of all content written online is written by AI these days. So yeah, definitely.  [00:05:35] Jason: Right. There's the fake internet theory that like the majority of the traffic and communication and comments on the internet isn't even real. So it's like we're walking around this fake ghost town online. And we're consuming content and we're like none the wiser in a lot of instances. So my quick take, for those listening, as we're going through this AI revolution, it's exciting. There's a lot of change happening. [00:05:57] We don't want to be left behind. We want to make sure we're paying attention to what's new, what we can use. Everybody's probably used chat GPT once or twice or keeps hearing about it from other people. "They've got a GPT, that thing that you use." Yeah. I used it this morning, right? Like I was trying to figure out something in my Chevy Tahoe. [00:06:15] And I was like, "how do I do this thing in my Tahoe? Like, can you just tell me?" And it can collapse time, but sometimes it's not useful. I think my take on this is that human interaction is going to be a premium. It's going to be at a premium. It's going to be something that really sets people apart because we're moving away from humanity to some degree by leveraging all this tech and AI and all these tools and property management is a very human business. [00:06:43] It's a very relationship driven business. And and I think we'll get into this today. We want to be careful of using technology where we shouldn't or trying to trick people. "Well, look, I'm pretending like it's me, but it's AI. Haha. I tricked you." And what's funny is there's little indicators, like, and we know that this stuff's being used in a lot of different ways, like governments are using this now, like, we don't even know what's real on the news or what's like deep fakes or AI, like they're showing people's like doing interviews and people are zooming in and noticing their rings are disappearing and like weird stuff, right? [00:07:20] David: Yeah.  [00:07:20] Jason: And stuff's going viral on like the internet. And so we're living in this world where we're super skeptical and we wonder if anything's real.  [00:07:28] David: Yeah.  [00:07:29] Jason: Sometimes people are even asking, like, is this AI on a phone call?  [00:07:33] David: Yeah, well, you can't tell the difference now. I'll tell you, our tech team and AI guys they actually played around with me a little bit and they actually use my voice and had me doing work orders and no one could tell it was them. [00:07:44] Not me speaking and giving triage and doing that type of stuff. And I actually I tested it with my wife and I sent her a message over it and she didn't even blink an eye. Didn't even blink an eye. It was crazy. It was that first like aha moment that really when we talk about our fiduciary duty to our clients and ourselves about the power of this and where it's going, right. [00:08:01] And to that point. So when it comes to AI, I think people need to understand that really, the way that we look at chat GBT to me is just the new Google, right? It's Google on steroids. Okay. And so, yeah, for sure. Do we use some chat GBT to understand like, how to write the perfect sentence structure? For sure. [00:08:18] But the cool part about this, Jason, is that what we're doing is: how do we use these models in this education that teach it about fiduciary duty to your owners? That's what gets me excited, right? That's what gets me excited to understand and to think intelligently and to think with thoughtfulness to the owner's pocketbooks when it's considering a decision of how to dispatch for maintenance, right? [00:08:42] Like, isn't that what we're all looking for? That we need a system that every work order that comes in that it goes to a expert maintenance coordinator that we know what that costs. I'm talking expert maintenance coordinator, a person's been in this job for 15 to 20 years that you can send a work order to and they don't make an error. [00:09:00] They're intelligent. They're able to educate, they're able to be client facing. Like there's a real skill set there if you put that on a CV for somebody, right? But that's not what this industry is filled with. Actually, this industry is filled with individuals who are under pressure to find the most affordable maintenance solutions and the most affordable ways to try to find people to run those maintenance solutions. We're allocating the least amount of resources to handle what I consider the highest probability of owner dissatisfaction in the property management relationship with the owner, right? So I have a VA who's 2000 miles away that's responsible for spending a thousand dollars in my owner's money. [00:09:38] And there's all types of potential errors and things that are happening as a result of that. So the way that we look at AI and actually in our business, we just use the word smart a lot. And we try to use that word, that intelligent instead of artificial. Because you know what? There is a lot of human input that has gone into this to teach it how to be smart and to teach it how to consider the fiduciary duty. [00:09:59] So at the end of the day, I would encourage all the listeners here that are going on this journey with us today to understand, not to be skeptical, how to maximize its value, right? And that's really what we're going to be focusing on today and to show you how we're maximizing its value to help us achieve what we call our dream outcome when handling maintenance. [00:10:18] Our dream outcome is as a property manager, I'm starting a company or I'm looking to grow, or I'm hitting those next growth objectives, or I'm looking for ways to be more profitable. What is my dream outcome? And that all circles around having an expert maintenance coordination in my office that is reducing trips costs and considering the fiduciary duty to my clients. [00:10:40] Right? So that's what we'll talk about here today and how we're using AI to achieve that.  [00:10:43] Jason: Got it. Well, let's get into it. So what can AI do and what can't AI do? Like, well, specifically what can Tulu do and what can't Tulu do?  [00:10:54] Where's the line drawn?  [00:10:55] David: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:10:56] So first of all, I always tell everybody this out of the beginning: we are not an outsourced maintenance coordination solution. We're not an outsourced company. Yeah. We are not a vendor. Okay. We're not bringing vendors to your marketplace. Okay. Tulu is your expert in house maintenance coordinator. [00:11:13] So if you're thinking of "I'm hiring a maintenance coordinator" or "I'm building a property management and I need a maintenance coordinator," you now have that. That's that ability to add this onto your software, your system. It's a simple plug and play. You get to remain inside of your portal, you don't have to leave it. [00:11:30] There's not another new portal, all updates, all things are pushing to Buildium and we're pushing to Appfolio. That was a big part of it. There's no new app for the vendors. There's no new app for the clients because we know what's important for them to live inside of there. So what can it do? Well, first of all, it's a leader. [00:11:43] Okay. And being a leader means that it is going to use the information that we capture about your company to lead your VAs, to make expert triage decisions that always consider your fiduciary duty to the owner. So let's give an example right here to break that down. Right. Say a hot water tank comes in. [00:12:03] Okay. Hot water tank's leaking. Okay. First thing it's going to want to understand is what time of the day is it and where is the hot water tank leaking from?  [00:12:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:12:10] David: And then it's going to determine based upon the location of the hot water tank, the type of the hot water tank, which type of vendor at which time is the right one to send out. That is the most cost effective that has the greatest probability of resolving that issue for the best price and meets the satisfaction of the resident. Right. Now that was a mouthful right there. Okay. And if you think about all of the potential errors and data points and things that are involved, the smart maintenance coordinator considers all those and it brings out a triage and it tells the VA "here's the pieces that you're missing. Here's the information that I need. And here's what my suggestion is for you to move forward." So it's amazing at being a leader. And then it's amazing at being an expert about creating communications for the resident and to the vendor to direct them. And then it's also an educator and at the bottom of every work order. [00:12:58] And I hope to be able to show some people it's really cool. We don't believe in just telling people what to do. We should educate them and tell them why they're doing what they're doing. Right. So imagine if you had the best expert maintenance coordinator leaning over the shoulder of every VA that you have standing there and telling them every work order, every time, here's what to do, here's how to do it, and here's why you're doing it. Right. And as a result, we're finding that VAs that come over that are dedicated to the account in two weeks, they're educated. And in six weeks, the majority of them are executing as a high level maintenance expert within six weeks. Of after sitting down and learning the training system, because just as much as it's leading, it's also training and educating. [00:13:38] That is a wow moment for somebody who's been in the space, who's been here for 15 years, managing hundreds and hundreds of people for government entities and stuff and understanding the amount of time and effort and training that goes into somebody. And then all of a sudden they come and they tell you, "Hey, by the way, I got a new job. Thank you for all the training. I'm going to go make $30,000 somewhere else," right? How many times has this happened to me? Hundreds of times, right? And so that's a big part of what we're solving here.  [00:14:02] Jason: So in order to be effective and operate as an expert maintenance coordinator so that your VAs that don't have this knowledge can function as if they have this knowledge, then this has to be programmed, right? Maybe it'd be helpful for, the viewers or listeners of this podcast to find out what are all the inputs that go into this? What did they have to provide and what do you guys provide, so this AI, they can trust it? [00:14:29] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question, Jason. So first of all, I want to put it on point two to make an emphasis that in this journey that we're all learning about these smart technologies and AI, there's still a big part of human component, right? [00:14:38] And it's like when you chat, when you write something in chat GBT, like you just don't send it without looking at it. Right. You're reviewing it and making sure it's still saying that you want it to say. Right. So everybody rest assured this thing is not, living on its own and there's checks and balances. [00:14:51] But the onboarding on average takes 30 to 45 minutes. Okay. And one of the things that we did is number one is, when it comes to triaging and best practices, there's literally probably about 500,000 work orders of data points that it's considering. And it's an expert in that thing that's saying, "Hey, listen, this is how you should handle every work order that comes in because I've seen this, 20,000 times, and this is the best outcome." [00:15:18] Right. But then what it does is it allows the property manager to talk in natural language. Like you want to talk like a robot. We don't have to write weird code. Just say things. "Hey the owner of one, two, three main street really loves Tom." Tom works on his properties. Comes in 123 main street comes up. It understands what Tom's capabilities are. And it says, "please use Tom to use this." The owner prefers that Tom works on his properties. They have a great relationship. Cool. And so those little tidbits for example, if the heat goes out in unit number one, understand that access has to be in unit number two basement to the HVAC unit, right? [00:15:52] So that's good to know, but why is that important to know? Because most VAs would make a mistake. They say there's no heat. They don't check property notes. They send out the plumber. Plumber is knocking on the door at unit number one. Person says, I don't know where the HVAC unit is. Tenant next door is not home. [00:16:06] Now you just charge your owner for 250 emergency call to go out. The resident still doesn't have heat. They think that you're unorganized. It shows you're unorganized on your owner statement because there's two invoices. "Oh, no, wait, you want to cover that? You're unorganized." So you just ate 250 that you're already not marking up on maintenance and you do that 10 times a month. [00:16:25] Okay. And that's what's going on.  [00:16:27] Jason: And this is where then the owner's like, "I might as well just do it myself because I know everything and it's in my head." So how did they get all of that out of their head? All the little things they know about each property, each multi unit property, what's in the basements, what's..? [00:16:40] David: We have a cool onboarding process. And again, most times about 30-45 minutes, they sit in, it's called building your AI co pilot. Actually, a lot of people dig it. It's cool. It's a cool process. And we will be first, we go into your system and we're able to pull out all your work order data and it organizes all your vendors, and we can tell who all your vendors are and what you're doing based upon the work order types. [00:16:59] We can tell if you're a preferred guy is here. Number one guy is, "Hey. This guy always seems to be working on these properties." So there's a lot of information that we gather. And then you just come in and you're like, "yeah, he's my primary. He's my secondary. Oh, here's this little information about this property." [00:17:13] So you really don't have to get like, like crazy. Like, like, the mailbox is located, like. You can add that stuff later, but in the beginning, it's just like, what are those important rules? I remember this one that really jumped out at me as impactful, a classic mistake, this owner had a lady living in the apartment for 35 years. [00:17:31] Okay, and she's getting old and one of the rules is that no matter what maintenance ticket comes in, "don't ask her to triage. Don't ask her. It's the tenant's responsibility. I love this person. Please send her out and just take care of her. Right?" What a great rule to put into your system that shows the owner that when that work order comes in, He's not getting a call from, and I forget what her name is. [00:17:51] And like, they're asking me to change my light bulbs again. And then he's like, I told you twice not to do this. And next thing he's looking for another property manager. And I always love that example of that rule. So that's what you're looking as far as the information you're giving us takes about 30 to 45 minutes. [00:18:03] For people who have anywhere between, 150 to 350 properties. If you start having, 500, 600, a thousand, I would definitely allocate up to two hours and onboarding for sure.  [00:18:13] Jason: Okay. That's really fast when it comes to rolling out a new technology. Yeah. It's ridiculously fast.  [00:18:19] David: Yeah. [00:18:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely quick. So basically you have all this learning and understanding that's going into who your preferred vendors are. We know how to handle the maintenance work orders. There's no like integration that has to happen. And so as this triage is coming through, you're getting this expert level triage and you can add things down the road. [00:18:38] You can add it, but how to handle the work orders as we say, there's really nothing new in maintenance. What's new is: "what's the NT for the property? Are there any special conditions that we need to know? Right? What are your residents' responsibilities and what are you responsible for?" Once you have those four questions answered, how to handle the hot water tank, at what time to hit on the hot water tank, how to, how to repair this door, how to do that. [00:19:02] Those true principles of maintenance are true for everybody, if that makes sense, right? So, so that's a big part of the value that you get that You're hiring an expert maintenance coordinator. If you were to hire him, you wouldn't necessarily be telling him. "Hey, this is how you replace a doorknob." [00:19:18] He should already know that when you hired him. Right. So think of like it that way when you're considering us as a technology.  [00:19:24] Jason: So, a human maintenance coordinator, the challenge would be, there's no way they can remember every detail about every property, right?  [00:19:32] David: Yeah,  [00:19:32] Jason: it's not. Which means they would have to keep notes. [00:19:35] Let's say they've already got a decent amount of notes somewhere. Might be in the property management software, maybe they've got their own, I don't know, database of something. Is there the ability to pull in all that information?  [00:19:46] David: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. To grab those notes out. A lot of people have the ability to export it. [00:19:51] They have a good note file or something like that. We get those, we take that information and it can just be pushed up into the system for sure. So yeah, the onboarding it, it can be, again, some people come in and say, "all I have is single family houses." Everything's pretty straightforward. [00:20:03] Other people send over an Excel list. "Here's my property notes at the property levels" and upload them. So that's the cool part where. You ingest into the system. There's not a lot of data, manual input. It's reading it and assigning it. And that's where we're using technology to help even improve the onboarding process that you talked about, right? [00:20:19] You think about people wear t shirts, like, I survived the Yardi onboarding process, right? Like, technology has come a long way to help improve that process, and that was a big part that we focused on.  [00:20:28] Jason: Yeah, that's wild. So once you've got them onboarded and they're in your system, the AI knows pretty much everything about the property, but maybe it doesn't, maybe there's some things it doesn't know. [00:20:41] And so work order comes up. You're working on something and it's still just in the property manager's head or it's still in the business owner's head or maybe they don't even know yet, but it runs there. It runs into an issue. It's like it has a question maybe, or it doesn't. It needs to know some more stuff. [00:20:57] I don't know. What happens in those scenarios? [00:21:00] David: Yeah, this is a great one. So, all right, so let's talk about the life cycle of a work order. Right. And let's everybody just understand that there still is a human component involved in this, right? Every property manager has a dedicated, we call them a remote team member, who's now this expert maintenance coordinator at the cost of a remote team member. [00:21:16] Now they're able to execute at a very high level. But there are going to be things that they're faced that they don't understand. So they have the ability to communicate with you one on one, or we also have this process internally that they have this ability to go, "I need a request from the expert in the loop" and the expert in the loop is you know, invoice review, complication that they're saying that the AI is not clear on them and it's asking for additional support. And so they can bump that up to individuals, myself, and there's other members of the team members that are big part of this and they can get expert level triage inside of there, to say, "Hey, listen, I'm facing with this vendor issue. They need 25 percent upfront. The job is only 500. I'm not understanding what to do here. The building is located and they're saying access is weird. They need to bring something in." There are complications that still involve human understanding. And so that expert in the loop solves that piece in there. [00:22:07] And also speaking of humans, we believe that residents and vendors still need to speak to a human. Okay. Super important. Okay. So the value that we have is that we're able to create expert level triage, According to their specifications and the training model and all the great things and the automation and the text messages that are written for them and the codes that are written for them the emails, all those things. [00:22:31] So, if we can automate at a very high level and free up our people to be able to provide support on the phone to the vendor on the field, or to actually talk to a resident, everybody knows this and I talk to everybody, guys, residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager and that when they call in, a lot of people have not even adapted technology for anybody who has, residents have been with them with a while and they're used to talking to Janet, they're used to talking to tell him inside and next thing you can say to them, "Oh, we have a new maintenance system. And by the way, you have to talk to the system." They're like, "okay. This is lame," right? Like, so that personal connection and we have a saying inside of the office that we keep your residents and your vendors within arm's length of you, right? It's communicating. They're using your property management name. [00:23:20] They're speaking on your behalf. This is an extension of your office. This is your maintenance coordinator. Don't think of this as a vendor. Don't think this is an outsourced maintenance solution that you're setting all your maintenance to some company that's sourcing vendors or bringing them in and doing every, this is your in house maintenance team. [00:23:38] So always consider that when you're thinking about Tulu, real people. In house maintenance coordinator just powered by AI enabled execute at a crazy high level.  [00:23:46] Jason: So, yeah. So how do tickets get into the maintenance system? Like how are they initiated? Do they still have to be answering their own phone calls? [00:23:56] Are they just putting it into their property manager software? And then Tulu is going to like start taking some action. What communication does Tulu facilitate or take over if we're going to be having still needing some humans to be in Tulu allows us to increase the amount of communication and care that we show. [00:24:13] Where do we draw the line? Like, where is Tulu stepping in and doing some communication and where do we need team members to be doing communication?  [00:24:21] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So let's just go through the life cycle of a work order for everybody. I think that's what everyone really understands when they're all thinking about this. [00:24:28] Okay, let's give me a work order from start to finish. Right? So no change to your residents. No change to anybody. They log into their portal, Buildium, Appfolio, RentVine, whatever they're using. They submit a maintenance work order, that maintenance work order through their system is dispatched to the Tulu maintenance coordinator, expert maintenance coordinator. [00:24:46] All the magic is happening, all the triage, everything is taking place, and inside of the property management software, they're going to see. Work order.  [00:24:53] Jason: And is that dispatched through via email? API? Yep.  [00:24:56] David: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just through email? Yep. Set up as simple. You can set it up as a maintenance coordinator and as the maintenance coordinator is set up and the email comes in and it pings out and that creates the work order and starts to process through the, yeah. [00:25:08] Yep. Cool. And then the property manager will see that the work order has been it's in triage on the status of their system. Then it's assigned, then the vendor will be assigned there. And then from there, the updates, when it's scheduled that we call it the who, what, and the why, right? [00:25:25] What's going on, who's doing it and what's being done to progress this for. That's a note. You're constantly getting those notes. Now, the cool part about this, Jason. is behind the scenes. All of those text messages and phone calls and emails that we call the noise that are between the residents and the vendors and everybody are all being captured in a system behind the scenes. [00:25:45] Right. Super value there, right? If a resident is a little bit upset about something or you have some questions, "Hey guys, can you hand me the phone call this one to show me the text messages," right? Communications are big part. So we capture all those communications inside there at any time that the owner of the property manager wants to pull them. [00:26:00] That's great. Then the work order is completed. The completion, quick question. So  [00:26:05] Jason: all this communication between tenants and vendors, unless they're using some sort of magical system That the vendors have to be in and that the tenants are logged into. And it's like seeing all this, how does Tulu capture that? [00:26:18] How does it know that the vendor is communicating with the tenant or the tenant? Okay. So it would be any point.  [00:26:24] David: Yeah. Good point. Any point that the the tenant. Is communicating or the vendor or just communicate with two of those. So if the vendor happened to communicate directly with the tenant, it would not capture that part, right? [00:26:34] That's their phone to phone with that part, right? So it's when the resident or the tenant is communicating with the maintenance coordinator. And as we all know, tenants and vendors love to communicate by text message, right? That's their number one thing to do. So, it's really cool for vendors too, because as we know, a bunch of vendors, they hate. "I don't want to work in another app." Vendors can take pictures from their phone. They can upload estimates from their phone. The estimate comes in and it's actually turned into this really pretty estimate because we know vendors estimates are notorious for being on the back of a paper and hand scratched, right? [00:27:06] So it actually creates into a brand new Tulu estimate. And so your owners get transparency into pricing and labor. And it's standardized and everything looks clean. And so yeah, vendors love it because they're not lazy, but they're busy guys. And instead of going home and trying to do a whole bunch of paperwork, they can now just generate an estimate, take a picture and shoot it right through. [00:27:22] So, yeah.  [00:27:23] Jason: Because the challenge that there's a lot of communication involved. And so usually to decrease the amount of communication, they're trying to figure out how do we get the vendors to just talk to the tenants directly to collapse time? But if you have AI, then my guess is that Tulu will still just act like that middle person because the vendor can communicate with them, they can immediately text you, then Tulu texts the tenant, then it's just doing it real time. [00:27:45] You don't have to wait on a human being in your office to like make this communication happen. So you're like, "well, we're so slow. Let's just get them to talk to each other." The AI is making this happen. Is that accurate?  [00:27:56] David: Huge point right here is, and man you really hit off the nail on the head on this one point here. [00:28:01] The amount of people that we are seeing that they're using vendors to perform triage in this space is actually alarming. Okay. Alarming. All right. Vendors should not be performing our triage. They should not be the ones trying to figure out what is going on. They're not our client facing people. Maybe some guys are good. [00:28:20] your in-house guys, goods or whatever. The majority of people are using this, right? The beauty of the system is: Do we have enough information that is captured? From the resident, the property manager that considers the needs of the owner to formulate the correct direction to the vendor so that they can show up with the resources that they need to fix the job the right time or show up educated about what they're there to fix. [00:28:41] Jason: So let's talk about this real quick. Like vendors should not be doing triage and why not? Like, like what are the obvious ramifications here? Well, vendors, that's like asking a surgeon if you need surgery, right? That's how he makes his money.  [00:28:55] "That's the solution is surgery. We should chop that out, like, let's cut that thing out and I get paid thousands and thousands of dollars."  [00:29:02] David: Or how about this one, Jason, on an owner's report. I see a cost for so many times you see a cost for a maintenance guy, "unable to resolve expert needed." well, why? Because the maintenance vendor was sent out to do the triage. [00:29:15] That's not fiduciary duty to the owner. If we had the right information, we could have avoided that one trip. So we have some really cool case studies. I'd love to show people that out of like 260 work orders, we have one right here, a client that signed up with us. And so out of that thing here let's see. [00:29:31] They completed 194 work orders. 17 unnecessary trips were canceled. Wow. Okay. 17 unnecessary trips and 15 of those work orders had an immediate reduction in price because they said that the wrong resource was assigned to that. So think about that. 17 different numbers.  [00:29:48] Jason: So if that, if they have an in-house maintenance team, you're decreasing your your cost deploying these texts, going out and doing stupid work, like significantly. If you are using third party vendors, then there's always an expense. If you're sending anybody out, unless you're like, go do a bid, or something like this, but that's costing the vendor, which they're going to be more frustrated with you. [00:30:09] So you're freeing that up or they're charging you for it. "Oh, well, if I go out, I charge, right?" Yeah.  [00:30:15] David: I'll give you an example. We just saved owner of a pad split property who wanted to replace the refrigerator. The request came in and they asked for three estimates, okay, to replace the refrigerator. [00:30:28] Okay, the suggestion came back that basically said in a nutshell, summarize this, "why are you sending three different appliance vendors who are all going to charge a trip fee to go look at a refrigerator when a Home Depot program should be used and the cost of refrigerator should be 860? To factor all those costs in, it would have been about 1, 400. I don't understand why you're doing this. Please explain, right?" Talk about fiduciary duty to the owner.  [00:30:51] Jason: This is why owners get frustrated and they're like, "I might as well just do it myself." [00:30:55] David: " Because I knew better. I would go to Home Depot. Everyone knows to order a refrigerator from Home Depot, right? Unless there's special circumstances." And now imagine this, and this is where we're going with this, Jason. At the end of each month, these owner reports go out to all these owners, and owners sit down and they call up the property manager, and we always hear people talking about this at every conference. [00:31:14] "Oh, I don't want to answer that phone call. I know what this is about, right?" And the property manager is scrambling at the end of the month to call the maintenance coordinator, dig into work order notes and justify why did this cost this much? "Explain this to me," right? So we have this really cool report that's coming out that basically, including in the property owner, It would let you know that, Hey, you had six jobs that were able to send a handyman this month. [00:31:38] Here's what's going on. You had two emergencies, two replacements, little asterisks that said, "Hey, this trip fee was 120. Why? Well, it required two people because there was a toilet that was being replaced on the third floor so they requested an extra hour of labor to be able to bring that toilet up because it was too like..." intimate details so that your owners are feeling like they're getting this like this whole transparency, unbelievable transparency, this report, the property manager doesn't have to waste at the end of the month, which I used to send away two to three days at the beginning of each month, just to answer phone calls and questions.  [00:32:12] Jason: Right. Yeah. It's like "why did it cost us much? Why?" [00:32:14] Like they can just see it.  [00:32:16] David: Yeah. "Why didn't you send Tom?" "Well, I did send Tom to snake the drain because it was clogged in the master bathroom. We set his limit at an hour. He used a 17, 25 foot power snake. And we said, if you can't get this done within an hour, then we need to send Roto Rooter." "Oh, I get that. You really did try to save me money in the beginning. Yeah. And Roto Rooter found that 35 feet down the thing was a clogged diaper or something like that." That's what owners need to understand. And to break that down in every work order is a tremendous strain on property managers and our system in V2 that's coming very quickly. [00:32:52] I was actually working on this morning. Those owner reports will be generated then if every month that explain intimate details about the thought process. and the costs and any decisions behind breaking it down into category for every maintenance work order type for their owners. Huge value. Imagine going to a client, a new client, and you're presenting against somebody else and they say, "Hey, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:33:14] And you pull that report out and you put it down on the table.  [00:33:16] Jason: You're like, "like this is the level of detail. Nobody else is doing this." The maintenance coordinator get on the phone every time and saying, "let me walk you through all these charges and why they happened and what did." And like, how many people listen to this right now? [00:33:31] I'm like, I know you're listening to this going, "if I never had to do that again, that would be the best thing ever. Ever. Like I've never had to have that uncomfortable conversation with the owner." Like it's all in there. It's all there. Like it makes sense.  [00:33:43] David: "Here's why we are your property manager. And here's the value that I'm giving to you in the transparency to maintenance." [00:33:50] That's a huge burden. It's a significant pain point. And we know this Jason, the first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner and they're beginning Googling "other property managers around me." The third one. You're just waiting for them to look and to go somewhere else. [00:34:07] So the relationship is falling apart. Right. And we are trying to know that  [00:34:11] Jason: You got a 600 door business in four years.  [00:34:14] David: Yes.  [00:34:15] Jason: Like, and so, and you have probably heard countless stories of people if they're switching companies, it's really rare that people switch companies. Usually things have to be pretty bad and maintenance that's in communication. [00:34:27] Those that's number one factors, communication and why people leave. And so this allows you to free up a massive amount of time so you can actually be on the phone with the people when you need to be on the phone and stop wasting time with all of these repeat calls, repeat requests, what's going on with this, and yeah, this would just save so much time. [00:34:44] David: Well, think about growth, Jason, right? So the three things that we're solving for, number one is we're protecting fiduciary duty to the owners, justifying maintenance costs and reducing the cost of expert in house maintenance coordination and making it scalable. Yeah. Okay. [00:34:58] So now if I can have an expert maintenance coordinator that I add to my office, there's a fixed cost to it. I can scale infinity and not have to worry about hiring and training and staffing and issues and all these problems in global, right? My fiduciary duty to my owners, I got reporting and transparency. [00:35:17] Maybe my property manager now, instead of being able to manage 250 doors, maybe they can manage 350 doors. Isn't that cool? Like that's where we're going with this stuff for sure.  [00:35:25] Jason: Yeah, it definitely would make a business as maintenance coordination, maybe infinitely scalable. So, okay. I know somebody that's listening, that's very detail oriented and their brain doesn't think like a spider web, like mine is going, "Hey, you guys never finished the example scenario because Jason derailed it." [00:35:43] And so we've got the maintenance request. It's come in.  [00:35:46] David: Yeah.  [00:35:47] Jason: So take, let's go back to that.  [00:35:49] David: Okay. Yeah. Maintenance request comes in the triage takes place. The information is gathered once the information is gathered, and it fills the requirements of what they believe is the right decision. [00:36:00] At that point, the scheduling takes place. Okay.  [00:36:03] Jason: Okay. So which pieces of Tulu doing?  [00:36:05] David: All of this.  [00:36:05] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:36:07] David: Okay. Okay. So then we're scheduling and then the work is completed. Quality pictures are received. If the resident is satisfaction, you have happiness received, vendors invoices received, and that's all uploaded into the system. [00:36:20] And then at that point, the property manager can pay the vendor directly if they have a great relationship and maybe they want to pay them in whatever way they do. A lot of people like paying their vendors, that's fine. Or they can reimburse the Tulu system. If they just want to pay one vendor for the rest of their life, and then Tulu will pay the vendor for them directly. [00:36:38] So it is from intake to vendor payment, all updates, all communications, all triaging, everything.  [00:36:46] Jason: Tulu does all of it. Does it all.  [00:36:48] David: It is your perfect maintenance coordinator. What we call the dream scenario. It has the ability to triage, troubleshoot, knowledgeable about vendor pricing, it's client facing and experience and client facing means that you can even set the parameter that said, "Hey, if anything is over my NTE, I would actually like you to generate your justification as to why think about this and send it out to my owner." Now imagine your owner getting this super email that's like, "Hey, listen, we have this problem. So the five to fancy, here's the steps that it took place to do."  [00:37:15] Jason: So like the amount that's in the agreement that says like anything under 500 in a single month, like we have a right to just take care of it. Right. Or something like this property managers having their agreements. Okay. So, so where do they need humans then? Where do humans come in all of this? [00:37:31] David: Humans need to be there to provide expert level, the same expert level triage that the system is providing, we need humans in there to make sure, first of all, it's accurate. There is a component of that, right? We're reviewing this and training it, learning it, but as we talked about before, humans need to be there. [00:37:47] We love that they have a great relationship because they're an extension of the office with their RTM, right? With their property manager and that RTM, they get to know each other. Humans are needed to talk to the residents and humans are needed for vendor support. Okay. Vendors don't want to call into a robot when their hand is in a sewer line from the field asking about, "Hey, I need help and direction. What's going on?" [00:38:07] They don't want to hear "press two if you're unhappy with this service," like they don't want to hear that. That's where humans come in.  [00:38:13] Jason: Got it. Okay. So what are some of the results that you're seeing when you're installing in this into businesses? Like what's shifting? Because I'm hearing some things like it's going to decrease the time you're spending on the phone with your owner. [00:38:25] So it's going to decrease the amount of time doing communication. You won't have to spend time doing triages. It sounds like a large piece of maintenance coordination is going to be taken care of. It sounds like staffing costs can be reduced. You tell me what are clients noticing once they get this installed over their previous systems of using a stack of tech tools to try and get their team to be able to handle this stuff? [00:38:47] David: I think in the beginning and I think that it's cool in our relationship is just to hear people come back after the first month and go, "I can't believe it. Like I went an entire month and like, I was not involved in maintenance the way that I feel that I needed to be to make sure that all these things were taken care of. And I'm finding myself with like 20 hours extra a month." And we're like "yes, go grow. Go add more doors. Go show greater value to your clients. Maybe call your client that you haven't been calling in a month because you've been so busy." Right. So, so those are really cool. I think from a cost perspective, they are appreciating. [00:39:24] And I'm believing that. Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. So even though you're giving to somebody, they never were able to detach themselves from me. [00:39:37] And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control. If that makes sense. Or they're giving it away, but they're actually feeling they're in more control, if I'm making sense there. That's one of the coolest things is that they feel now they have their pulse on every work order where versus before they have to dive into search. Now they know that their requirements are just laid over every work order. So those are some big ones that I'm seeing, especially for those people who really show their value to their owners in the fact that they say, "I'm involved in every work order, every job." That's a great value prop. It really is. Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? [00:40:29] Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives, right? Scalable solution. And basically what we're doing is we're allowing the best in the business who are property managers who have created great relationships to duplicate themselves. And that's exciting for them to see. I think that they're like, "wow it's thinking like me."  [00:40:45] Jason: This really sounds like a serious competitive advantage for a property manager that adopts this over any other competitors that don't  [00:40:54] David: Jason, I'm going to a new client pitch and now I'm knowing that the guy next to me is sitting down showing him, "this is how I handle maintenance. This is how I'm keeping your cost down. This is the process. And that new report's coming in our V2. I was actually working some funnels that this morning. And if you're laying that down and then you're walking in behind them and the person says, "well, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:41:15] "Well, I personally call you on every maintenance ticket." We're witnessing the greatest generational movement of wealth and real estate properties from retiring baby boomers to the next generation to their kids who are all grown up in a technology world that are demanding transparency and reporting and it's just going to be the new standard, Jason, a hundred percent. [00:41:34] It's going to be the new standard for sure.  [00:41:36] Jason: Okay. We probably got somebody listening. They're super skeptical. They're like, there's no way. And they're going to throw us some crazy scenario that came up recently. And I'm sure you've heard some of these. So how would you address that? Like some sort of like, "well, what if it's like this and this," and it sounds like worst case scenario. [00:41:54] The AI just says, expert in the loop. Like it's, it raises his hand in some way and says, "Hey, I could use a human over here."  [00:42:00] David: Here's one that actually, as a guy who in my history, we had portfolios, like 30,000 properties. [00:42:06] So I've done probably over 500,000 work orders. In my career. Okay?  [00:42:10] Jason: More than most of the people that are probably listening to this. Yes.  [00:42:13] David: Yes. And as a result, just because of the size of the inventories that we used to manage the other day, a resident submitted a maintenance work order in and said, "my microwave is not working. And I assume it's because my gas stove is not turned on. And does my gas stove need to be turned on in order for the gas to flow up to my microwave?" Okay. True. True. Okay. All right. True maintenance work order. The the smart system picked that up and now imagine a VA facing that without any knowledge or an experience that's going to be an email to the property manager, a phone call to somebody, or maybe they make a mistake because they're 2000 miles away and they don't have any contacts and they sent out a plumber to go investigate. And the owner says, "why are you sending out a plumber for this?" Right? Right. Okay. The system picked up and it literally educated and trained. And it said that gas has no relevance whatsoever to a microwave solution. This is an incorrect thing, right? And that, when I saw that one, it makes mistakes. [00:43:04] Don't get me wrong. It's not perfect, but when I saw it pick up on that one, I said, man, I said, this is getting exciting that it picked up on that. So I would ask that person to come and just experience it and look at a little bit and understand guys, right? This is exciting. This is new. It's learning. [00:43:19] We're developing and it's improving daily. There's still a lot of human oversight. There's still a VAs that involved. We're getting expert maintenance coordination down to a price point that is affordable for everybody, scalable for everybody. And the biggest point at the end of the day, your owners are going to feel that every maintenance work order comes in, it's being handled by the best maintenance process in the industry. [00:43:39] And that's what you're going to be able to offer them as a property manager to compete against other competition you have in your market. And I think that's a good value prop. So.  [00:43:46] Jason: Yeah, definitely. So is there anything else related to turning maintenance into a profit center that we should cover? [00:43:52] David: Yeah the first step going into a profit center is realizing that the average person is paying between 16 to 28 dollars per door to manage their maintenance, right? If we get that down to the correct number, and I'd love to have anybody come through and we'll run the analytics for them and we'll give them a pricing model for that just off the bat, the first profit center that we're creating is what if I'm able to reduce that by 50 percent your cost, that's an immediate profit center, right? [00:44:16] That's profit center number one. And then we can look at profit centers number two, that like, all right, now I can add on if I want to add on to my markup or we have some other ways that we can show them how to. But the first profit center needs to be is what do you know how much you are paying per door to manage maintenance? [00:44:34] Take all of your staff, all of your VAs, all of your systems, all your after hour services, take all those pieces, add them all up and divide them by the number of doors that you have. So every door that you bring on, it's costing me $27 to handle maintenance emergency services. Okay. Know that number, and let's have a talk. [00:44:54] Jason: You got to build that calculator on your website.  [00:44:56] David: It's coming.  [00:44:57] Jason: A lot of calculators like that to help people calculate their cold lead marketing costs or whatever. And as soon as they fill that out, they're like, "okay, I'll sign up. Like this is ridiculous. What I've been doing?"  [00:45:06] David: We have that in product right now. [00:45:07] We have a couple of pieces. We did the finish on it, but that's coming out where people can just understand what they're paying per door. But give us a call up. We'll walk you through the exercise. We'll show you what you're costing. Think about that as your first profit center, Jason. And then we can talk about other ones and we help give some people some advice still. [00:45:22] Jason: So David, you have a lot of knowledge and experience. How much of your knowledge and experience has gone into bringing this AI up to understanding what you know?  [00:45:32] David: I've been working on this for 12 years. Of putting the data and the learnings. And again, I've been fortunate guys where it was just my path. [00:45:39] It was my journey through this, where I've got to work for some huge outfits. I had my own consulting company for seven years. I was working with some of the biggest SFR groups in the nation, guys with 10,000-20,000 doors. And I'm just fortunate to understand the amount of data. So, I've put my blood, sweat and tears into this, but at the core of that Jason, my blood, sweat, and tears. [00:46:00] Is that, 15 years ago when I was brand new in this property management space, I had a broker tell me one time that after the sale of the property is done, the success of the owner is no longer your business or mine. And it's up to them. The sale is done. And they told me that when they walked away and that bothered me to this day, it bothered me that the fiduciary duty that individuals are giving to us to manage in some cases, millions of dollars of their money and assets and portfolios, right? And what type of products or services are we demanding of this industry? That we would demand of, let's say if I gave 50,000 to my broker to invest in the stock market for me, what type of services and technology and platforms am I demanding of that person, education, schooling, name brands, right? [00:46:45] But yet, are we demanding that same of us in our fiduciary duty to somebody that's giving over maybe their retirement to us their kids', future, college... you hear all these people, "why'd you get into real estate?" "I want to create a college fund for my kids." And after two years, the guy's like, "this is not what I signed up for. This is the worst mistake I ever made. And I'm backing out of, buying more properties because of challenges," right? That's what I'm driven by. And I've always been driven by that. It's my curse. And so I'd have to say there's a hundred percent of me in this Jason, for sure.  [00:47:13] Jason: Awesome. And it, this will outlive you like AI doesn't die. [00:47:17] And this is this not to be grim, but this is the concern. Like anybody has when they're signing up for a business, they're like, all right, "how much is reliant on just this one person? How much is reliant on that key person I'm interacting with?" Right. And the AI is not a person. Right? [00:47:34] And so, yeah, so that's really fascinating to think about. Like you've built all that into it and it has immediate, instant expertise. It's not like, "Hey, well, let me go call Tom and let me go check with Fred or let me..." like all the data it has, it's there and it's instant. [00:47:54] David: What's the difference between an emergency of a hot water tank that's leaking in a basement with a permeable stone floor versus emergency hot water tank that's located in the utility closet on the first floor? [00:48:04] One doesn't have to necessarily require a person to go out because there's no damage to prevent with water leaking down there. But the other one is leaking onto the floor and damaging your drywall. So these conditions have to be taking place. Locations of hot water tanks, like there's, I can nerd out in this and I'd love to sit down with anybody and drink beers and talk about all the millions of different maintenance things that I ran through. [00:48:24] But at the end of the day, when you're able to show your owner, "we acted as an expert." That's the guy that's going to say to his buddy when they're just having a drink, "call these guys up to manage your property because they're an expert in the thing." And that's what we're trying to bring to the industry for sure. [00:48:37] Jason: So this brings a level of expertise that the business owner, the property manager, the maintenance coordinator, and certainly the VA's just would not possess.  [00:48:48] David: You're talking 15 years, over 500,000 work orders worth of data points, learning and understanding from commercial, multifamily, single family across the board, best practices. [00:49:01] And it's for somebody who wants to imagine now a person can start a property management company tomorrow onboard Tulu. And they're immediately a veteran in the maintenance industry. Immediately.  [00:49:12] Yeah. No learning curve. You're operating and executing as the best maintenance coordinator in the industry starting tomorrow. [00:49:19] That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Really cool.  [00:49:22] Jason: This is really, it's really wild. So now my brain's like, how can I get experts, how can I clone Tulu, but make an operator version of Tulu for running a property managed business. Or I can make it.  [00:49:32] David: Yeah there's, there, there are offshoots on this. [00:49:34] I would have to say, and I do want to tell anybody that in this space that we always say that property managers are safe because you know what the property managers do a great job of doing. You guys do a really good job at building relationships and creating value in your local markets. [00:49:46] Right. Focus on that. Don't get pulled into maintenance, right? Maintenance and that stuff can be automated. There are best practices. Don't struggle to have to be an expert there. Show your value and the resources and tools that you have. Lower your overhead. Produce better results. Be at networking events. [00:50:03] Shake more hands. Talk to more people. Sell more homes. Add more doors. Shine where you shine. Brokers shine when they're out in front of people shaking hands and having expensive salads over a nice glass of chardonnay and closing deals, right? Let us flip the toilets and do it well for you. [00:50:18] That's what I say.  [00:50:19] Jason: Awesome. Okay, cool. David, if they're interested in Getting started. How do they find out about Tulu? You can go right to our website  [00:50:26] David: at trytulu. com. And if anybody wants to email me personally, david.norman.trytulu.Com. I'll connect you with our sales team and set you up on a personal demo. I'll walk you through it. I promise I won't bring so much energy. I'm an energy guy. It's just my calling this space to be in the maintenance and I love to doing what we're doing and seeing owners go "yes!" Seeing property managers go "yes!" And we're not trying to replace anybody. We're just trying to help people honor their fiduciary duty to their owners. And that's my mission. That's what I'm driven by.  [00:50:56] Jason: Yeah. Fantastic. So try Tulu, T U L U. Dot com.  [00:51:02] David: Yeah.  [00:51:02] Jason: All right. Try it out.  [00:51:04] David: All right.  [00:51:04] Jason: David, thanks for coming on the DoorGrowShow podcast. Appreciate you.  [00:51:08] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jason. Always great. Looking forward to the show. Until next time.  [00:51:11] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur and you are wanting to add doors, you get maintenance off loaded, off your plate, and you want to focus on growth and figuring out how to get more doors, you want to join the DoorGrow mastermind, our growth accelerator is all about that. [00:51:29] We are really good at optimizing businesses for growth using our rapid revamp class, where we clean up quickly, all of the front end stuff that is causing you to like kill trust and leaking trust and preventing deals. And then we give you the right strategies. We've got at least seven different growth engines that we can help build into your business that you can stack that will feed you unlimited leads without having to spend any money on advertising or marketing expense. [00:51:55] You just need people and it actually decreases the amount of time those people will spend If they're following working on the warm leads and the stuff that we would get you to do instead of cold leads, which take a lot more time. So we also have our super system level of our mastermind. This is where we're focused on ops, operations, helping your operator. That key person that's going to run the entire business for you, Mr. or Mrs. Visionary Entrepreneur, and they will help take your business to the next level. We can coach and support your operators, your BDMs, your salespeople, or you, the business owner to make this business infinitely scalable so that you can go to the next level and add a lot of doors. So reach out to us, let us assess your situation and see if we can help. [00:52

Particularly in the early stages, breaking through a sales plateau may just mean doing more of what you're doing. But generally, at some point, we hit a plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes, we need to get some help, or something needs to change fundamentally in the business in order to get us to that next level. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing the idea of breaking through your sales plateau. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's so good to be here again with you David, and as always, I'm very excited about this topic. I know businesses that hit these thresholds. It can be a monumental task to get to the next level and they're not sure how to do it. Is it, is it marketing? Is it adding new products? I think that's what a lot of them try to do. They're like, well, let's add 10 more products to the lineup and then we'll do it. And oftentimes that can just make the situation worse and not better. David: Yeah, it's true. Most businesses, I think it's safe to say, at some point run into some sort of plateau. They hit a level of sales and they can't get past it. I believe in small businesses this is particularly true, where you're just working and pushing and you're trying to get to that next benchmark. And you just can't reach it. And there are thresholds, I believe in small business, getting to your first hundred thousand in gross sales and then your first 250, and then you hit 500 and then a million and then 2 million and going from there. And in the early stages, you can generally do pretty well, like to get from a hundred thousand to 250 is often easier than it is to get from a million to 2 million. But most of us, at some point, will encounter some sort of sales plateau. You get there, you see it, you're targeting it, you're working toward it and you just can't seem to hit it. And so it's really just a matter of getting stuck. It's like, I feel like I'm stuck and I'm here and I need to be here and I'm not sure what to do next. Jay: Yeah. And I wonder how much of it is that they're not really sure how they got to the first plateau. I mean, they may think that they know, David: That's true. Jay: But it could be something completely different. And this could go back to something we talked about in a previous podcast: following up with your customers. Find out why they purchased, how they feel about their purchase. Are they returning customers? Are they not returning customers? So if you didn't understand why they bought in the first place and how they felt about that purchase, it's going to be hard breaking through that next plateau. David: It is, absolutely. And the biggest hangup that I see for most people is not knowing, "what do I do next?" And as you indicated, people get to a certain point in some cases, they're not sure how they did it. What's that referred to as? Unconscious competence? Jay: Mm-hmm, David: Where I'm doing things and it's working, but I'm not even sure of what I've done. So I haven't gotten around to building a system around it to put that into place so I can replicate it. But there's also the idea that what gets me to here will not necessarily get me to here. Right? So what gets me to level one won't necessarily get me to level two. That's not always the case, particularly in the early stages, you can do more of what you're doing to get to a higher level. But generally, at some point, we hit a sales plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes. Or we need to get some help. Or something needs to change fundamentally in the business, in order to get us to that next level. Jay: Yeah, something that can be very hard for people,

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT The health care sector has long struck me as having environments and dynamics that would benefit a lot from using digital signage technology. Accurate information is critically important, and things change quickly and often - in ways that make paper and dry erase marker board solutions seem antiquated and silly. But it is a tough sector to work in and crack - because of the layers of bureaucracy, tight regulations and the simple reality that medical facilities go up over several years, not months. People often talk about the digital signage solution sales cycle being something like 18 months on average. With healthcare, it can be double or triple that. The other challenge is that it is highly specialized and there are well-established companies referred to as patient engagement providers. So any digital signage software or solutions company thinking about going after health care business will be competing with companies that already know the industry and its technologies, like medical records, and have very established ties. LG has been active in the healthcare sector for decades, and sells specific displays and a platform used by patient engagement providers that the electronics giant has as business partners. I had a really insightful chat with Tom Mottlau, LG's director of healthcare sales. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Tom, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of what your role is at LG?  Tom Mottlau: I am the Director of Healthcare Sales for LG. I've been in this role for some time now; I joined the company in 1999 and have been selling quite a bit into the patient room for some time.  David: Has most of your focus through those years all been on healthcare? Tom Mottlau: Well, actually, when I started, I was a trainer when we were going through the digital rollout when we were bringing high-definition television into living rooms. My house was actually the beta site for WXIA for a time there until we got our language codes right. But soon after, I moved over to the commercial side and healthcare, around 2001-2002.  David: Oh, wow. So yeah, you've been at it a long time then. Much has changed!  Tom Mottlau: Yes, sir.  David: And I guess in some cases, nothing has changed.  Tom Mottlau: Yep. David: Healthcare is an interesting vertical market for me because it seems so opportune, but I tend to think it's both terrifying and very grinding in that they're quite often very large institutions, sometimes government-associated or university-associated, and very few things happen quickly. Is that a fair assessment?  Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. There's a lot of oversight in the patient room. It's a very litigation-rich environment, and so there's a bit of bureaucracy to cut through to make sure that you're bringing in something that's both safe for patients and protects their privacy but also performs a useful function.  David: I guess the other big challenge is the build-time. You can get word of an opportunity for a medical center that's going up in a particular city, and realistically, it's probably 5-7 years out before it actually opens its doors, right? Tom Mottlau: That's true. Not only that but very often, capital projects go through a gestation period that can be a year or two from the time you actually start talking about the opportunity.  David: And when it comes to patient engagement displays and related displays around the patient care areas, is that something that engineers and architects scheme in early on, or is it something that we start talking about 3-4 years into the design and build process?  Tom Mottlau: Well, the part that's schemed in is often what size displays we're going to need. So, for example, if somebody is looking to deploy maybe a two-screen approach or a large-format approach, that's the type of thing that is discussed early on, but then when they come up on trying to decide between the patient engagement providers in the market, they do their full assessment at that time because things evolve and also needs change in that whole period that may take a couple of years you may go as we did from an environment that absolutely wanted no cameras to an environment that kind of wanted cameras after COVID. You know, so things change. So they're constantly having those discussions.  David: Why switch to wanting cameras because of COVID?  Tom Mottlau: Really, because the hospitals were locked down. You couldn't go in and see your loved one. There was a thought that if we could limit the in-person contact, maybe we could save lives, and so there was a lot of thought around using technology to overcome the challenges of contagion, and so there was even funding dedicated towards it and a number of companies focused on it  David: That's interesting because I wondered whether, in the healthcare sector, business opportunities just flat dried up because the organizations were so focused on dealing with COVID or whether it actually opened up new opportunities or diverted budgets to things that maybe weren't thought about before, like video? Tom Mottlau: True, I mean, the video focus was definitely because of COVID, but then again, you had facilities where all of their outpatient procedures had dried up. So they were strained from a budget standpoint, and so they had to be very picky about where they spent their dollars.  Now the equipment is in the patient room, but at the end of the day, we're still going to get the same flow of patients. People don't choose when to be sick. If it's gonna be either the same or higher because of those with COVID, so they still need to supply those rooms with displays, even though they were going through a crisis, they still had to budget and still had to go through their day-to-day buying of that product.  David: Is this a specialty application and solution as opposed to something that a more generic digital signage, proAV company could offer? My gut tells me that in order to be successful, you really need to know the healthcare environment. You can't just say, we've got these screens, we've got the software, what do you need?  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, that's a very good question. Everything we do on our end is driven by VOC (voice of customer). We partner with the top patient engagement providers in the country. There are a handful that are what we call tier one. We actually provide them with products that they vet out before we go into production.  We go to them to ask them, what do you need? What products do you need for that patient? I mean, and that's where the patient engagement boards, the idea of patient engagement boards came from was we had to provide them a display that met, at the time, 60065 UL, which is now 62368-1, so that they can meet NFPA 99 fire code.  David: I love it when you talk dirty. Tom Mottlau: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there that.  David: What the hell is he talking about?  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, I know enough to be dangerous. Basically, what it boils down to is we want to make sure that our products are vetted by a third party. UL is considered a respectable testing agency, and that's why you find most electronics are vetted by them and so they test them in the patient room. It's a high-oxygen environment with folks who are debilitated and life-sustaining equipment so the product has to be tested.  We knew that we had to provide a product for our SIs that would meet those specs as well as other specs that they had like they wanted something that could be POE-powered because it takes an act of Congress to add a 110-amp outlet to a patient room. It's just a lot of bureaucracy for that. So we decided to roll out two units: one of 32, which is POE, and one that's 43. Taking all those things I just mentioned into consideration, as well as things like lighting.  Folks didn't want a big night light so we had to spend a little extra attention on the ambient light sensor and that type of thing. This is our first offering. David: So for doofuses like me who don't spend a lot of time thinking about underwriter lab, certifications, and so on, just about any monitor, well, I assume any monitor that is marketed by credible companies in North America is UL-certified, but these are different grades of UL, I'm guessing?  Tom Mottlau: They are. Going back in the day of CRTs, if you take it all the way back then when you put a product into a room that has a high-powered cathode ray tube and there's oxygen floating around, safety is always of concern. So, going way back, probably driven by product liability and that type of thing. We all wanted to produce a safe product, and that's why we turned to those companies. The way that works is we design a product, we throw it over to them, and they come back and say, okay, this is great, but you got to change this, and this could be anything. And then we go back and forth until we arrive at a product that's safe for that environment, with that low level of oxygen, with everything else into consideration in that room.  David: Is it different when you get out into the hallways and the nursing stations and so on? Do you still need that level, like within a certain proximity of oxygen or other gases, do you need to have that?  Tom Mottlau: It depends on the facility's tolerance because there is no federal law per se, and it could vary based on how they feel about it. I know that Florida tends to be very strict, but as a company, we had to find a place to draw that line, like where can we be safe and provide general products and where can we provide something that specialized?  And that's usually oxygenated patient room is usually the guideline. If there's oxygen in the walls and that type of thing, that's usually the guideline and the use of a pillow speaker. Outside into the hallways, not so much, but it depends on the facility. We just lay out the facts and let them decide. We sell both.  David: Is it a big additional cost to have that additional protection or whatever you want to call it, the engineering aspects?  Tom Mottlau: Yes.  David: So it's not like 10 percent more; it can be quite a bit more? Tom Mottlau: I'm not sure of the percentage, but there's a noticeable amount. Keep in mind it's typically not just achieving those ratings; it's some of the other design aspects that go into it. I mean, the fact that you have pillow speaker circuitry to begin with, there's a cost basis for that. There's a cost basis for maintaining an installer menu of 117+ items. There's a cost basis for maintaining a Pro:Centric webOS platform. You do tend to find it because of those things, not just any one of them, but because of all of them collectively, yeah, the cost is higher. I would also say that the warranties tend to be more encompassing. It's not like you have to drive it down to Ted's TV. Somebody comes and actually remedies on-site. So yeah, all of that carries a cost basis. That's why you're paying for that value.  David: You mentioned that you sell or partner with patient engagement providers. Could you describe what those companies do and offer? Tom Mottlau: Yeah, and there's a number of them. Really, just to be objective, I'll give you some of the tier ones, the ones that have taken our product over the years and tested and provided back, and the ones that have participated in our development summit. I'll touch on that in a moment after this. So companies like Aceso, you have Uniguest who were part of TVR who offers the pCare solutions. You have Get Well, Sonify, those types of companies; they've been at this for years, and as I mentioned, we have a development summit where we, for years, have piled these guys on a plane. The CTOs went off to Korea and the way I describe it is we all come into a room, and I say, we're about to enter Festivus. We want you to tell us all the ways we've disappointed you with our platform, and we sit in that room, we get tomatoes thrown at us, and then we make changes to the platform to accommodate what they need. And then that way, they're confident that they're deploying a product that we've done all we can to improve the functionality of their patient engagement systems. After all, we're a platform provider, which is what we are.  David: When you define patient engagement, what would be the technology mix that you would typically find in a modernized or newly opened patient care area? Tom Mottlau: So that would be going back years ago. I guess it started more with patient education. If Mrs. Jones is having a procedure on her kidney, they want her to be educated on what she can eat or not eat, so they found a way to bring that patient education to the patient room over the TVs. But then they also wanted to confirm she watched it, and then it went on from there.  It's not only the entertainment, but it's also things that help improve workflows, maybe even the filling out of surveys and whatnot on the platform, Being able to order your culinary, just knowing who your doctor is, questions, educational videos, all of those things and then link up with EMR. David: What's that?  Tom Mottlau: Electronic medical records. Over the years, healthcare has wanted to move away from paper, to put it very simply. They didn't want somebody's vitals in different aspects of their health stored on a hand-scribbled note in several different doctor's offices. So there's been an effort to create electronic medical records, and now that has kind of been something that our patient engagement providers have tied into those solutions into the group.  David: So, is the hub, so to speak, the visual hub in a patient care room just a TV, or is there other display technology in there, almost like a status board that tells them who their primary provider is and all the other stuff?  Tom Mottlau: So it started as the smart TV, the Pro:Centric webOS smart TV. But then, as time went on, we kept getting those requests for, say, a vertically mounted solution, where somebody can actually walk in the room, see who their doctor is, see who their nurse is, maybe the physician can come in and understand certain vitals of the patient, and so that's why we developed those patient engagement boards that separately. They started out as non-touch upon request, we went with the consensus, and the consensus was we really need controlled information. We don't want to; we've had enough issues with dry-erase boards. We want something where there's more control in entering that information, and interesting enough, we're now getting the opposite demand. We're getting demand now to incorporate touch on the future models, and that's how things start. As you know, to your point earlier, folks are initially hesitant to breach any type of rules with all the bureaucracy. Now, once they cut through all that and feel comfortable with a start, they're willing to explore more technologies within those rooms. That's why we always start out with one, and then over the years, it evolves.  David: I assume that there's a bit of a battle, but it takes some work to get at least some of the medical care facilities to budget and approve these patient engagement displays or status displays just because there's an additional cost. It's different from the way they've always done things, and it involves integration with, as you said, the EMR records and all that stuff. So, is there a lot of work to talk them into it?  Tom Mottlau: Well, you have to look at us like consultants, where we avoid just talking folks into things. Really, what it has to do with is going back to VOC, voice of the customer, the way we were doing this years ago or just re-upping until these boards were launched was to provide a larger format, and ESIs were dividing up the screen. That was the way we always recommended. But then, once we started getting that VOC, they were coming to us saying, well, we need to get these other displays in the room. You know, certain facilities were saying, Hey, we absolutely need this, and we were saying, well, we don't want to put something that's not rated for that room. Then we realized we had to really start developing a product that suits that app, that environment, and so our job is to make folks aware of what we have and let them decide which path they're going to take because, to be honest, there are two different ways of approaching it. You can use one screen of 75”, divide it, or have two screens like Moffitt did. Moffitt added the patient engagement boards, which is what they wanted.  David: I have the benefit, at least so far, of being kind of at retirement age and spending very little time, thank God, in any kind of patient care facility. Maybe that'll change. Hopefully not.  But when I have, I've still seen dry-erase marker boards at the nursing stations, in rooms, in hallways, and everywhere else. Why is it still like that? Why haven't they cut over? Is it still the prevalent way of doing things, or are you seeing quite a bit of adoption of these technologies? Tom Mottlau: Well, it is, I would say, just because we're very early in all this. That is the prevalent way, no doubt.  It's really those tech-forward, future-forward facilities that are wanting to kind of go beyond that and not only that, there's a lot of facilities that want to bring all that in and, maybe just the nature of that facility is a lot more conservative, and we have to respect that. Because ultimately they're having to maintain it. We wouldn't want to give somebody something that they can't maintain or not have the budget for. I mean, at the end of the day, they're going to come back to us, and whether or not they trust us is going to be based upon whether we advise them correctly or incorrectly. If we advise them incorrectly, they're not going to trust us. They're not going to buy from us ten years from now.  David: For your business partners, the companies that are developing patient engagement solutions, how difficult is it to work with their patient record systems, building ops systems, and so on to make these dynamic displays truly dynamic? Is it a big chore, or is there enough commonality that they can make that happen relatively quickly? Tom Mottlau: That's a very good question, and that's exactly why we're very careful about who's tier one and who we may advise folks to approach. Those companies I mentioned earlier are very skilled at what they do, and so they're taking our product as one piece of an entire system that involves many other components, and I have full faith in their ability to do that because we sit in on those meetings.  Once a year, we hear feedback, we hear positive feedback from facilities. We see it but it really couldn't happen without those partners, I would say. We made that choice years ago to be that platform provider that supports those partners and doesn't compete with them. In hindsight, I think that was a great choice because it provides more options to the market utilizing our platform.  David: Well, and being sector experts in everything that LG tries to touch would be nightmarish. If you're far better off, I suspect I will be with partners who wake up in the morning thinking about that stuff. Tom Mottlau: Yeah. I mean, we know our core competencies. We're never going to bite off more than we can chew. Now granted, we understand more and more these days, there's a lot of development supporting things like telehealth, patient engagement, EMR and whatnot. But we're also going to make sure that at the end of the day, we're tying in the right folks to provide the best solution we can to patients. David: How much discussion has to happen around network security and operating system security?  I mean, if you're running these on smart TVs, they're then running web OS, which is probably to the medical facility's I.T. team or not terribly familiar to them.  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, that's a very good question. Facilities, hospitals, and anything that involves network security bring them an acute case of indigestion, more so than other areas in the business world. So these folks, a lot of times, there's exhaustive paperwork whenever you have something that links up to the internet or something that's going to open up those vulnerabilities. So, Pro:Centric webOS is actually a walled garden. It is not something that is easily hacked when you have a walled garden approach and something that's controlled with a local server. That's why we took that approach. Now, we can offer them a VPN if there is something that they want to do externally, but these systems were decided upon years ago and built with security in mind because we knew we were going to deploy in very sensitive commercial environments. And so not so much a concern. You don't need to pull our TV out and link up with some foreign server as you might with a laptop that you buy that demands updates. It's not anything like that because, of course, that would open us up to vulnerability. So we don't take that approach. It's typically a local server and there is the ability to do some control of the server if you want a VPN, but other than that, there is no access.  David: Do you touch on other areas of what we would know as digital signage within a medical facility?  Like I'm thinking of wayfinding, directories, donor recognition, video walls, and those sorts of things. Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. I mean, we see everything. Wayfinding needs have been for years and years now, and those are only expanding. and we start to see some that require outdoor displays for wave finding. So we do have solutions for that.  Beyond displays, we actually have robots now that we're testing in medical facilities and have had a couple of certifications on some of those. David: What would they do?  Tom Mottlau: Well, the robots would be used primarily to deliver some type of nonsensitive product. I know there's some work down the road, or let's just say there's some demand for medication delivery.  But obviously, LG's approach to any demand like that is to vet it out and make sure we're designing it properly. Then, we can make announcements later on about that type of stuff. For now, we're taking those same robots that we're currently using, say, in the hotel industry, and we're getting demand for that type of technology to be used in a medical facility.  David: So surgical masks or some sort of cleaning solutions or whatever that need to be brought up to a certain area, you could send in orderly, but staffing may be tight and so you get a robot to do it. Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. And that is a very liquid situation. There's a lot of focus and a lot of development. I'm sure there'll be a lot to announce on that front, but it's all very fluid, and it's all finding its way into that environment with our company.  All these future-forward needs, not only with the robots but EV chargers for the vast amount of electric vehicles, we find ourselves involved in discussions on all these fronts with our medical facilities these days.  David: It's interesting. Obviously, AI is going to have a role in all kinds of aspects of medical research and diagnosis and all those super important things.  But I suspect there's probably a role as well, right down at the lobby level of a hospital, where somebody comes in where English isn't their first language, and they need to find the oncology clinic or whatever, and there's no translator available. If you can use AI to guide them, that would be very helpful and powerful.  Tom Mottlau: Let me write that down as a product idea. Actually, AI is something that is discussed in the company, I would say, on a weekly basis, and again, I'm sure there'll be plenty to showcase in the future. But yes, I'd say we have a good head start in that area that we're exploring different use cases in the medical environment.  David: It's interesting. I write about digital signage every day and look at emerging markets, and I've been saying that healthcare seems like a greenfield opportunity for a lot of companies, but based on this conversation, I would say it is, and it isn't because if you are a more generalized digital signage software platform, yes, you could theoretically do a lot of what's required, but there's so much insight and experience and business ties that you really need to compete with these patient engagement providers, and I think it would be awfully tough for just a more generalized company to crack, wouldn't it?  Tom Mottlau: I believe so. I mean, we've seen many come and go. You know, we have certain terms internally, like the medicine show, Wizard of Oz. there's a lot out there; you really just have to vet them out to see who's legit and who isn't, and I'm sure there are some perfectly legitimate companies that we haven't worked with yet, probably in areas outside of patient education we, we have these discussions every week, and it's, it can be difficult because there are companies that you might not have heard of and you're always trying to assess, how valid is this? And, yeah, that's a tough one.  David: Last question. Is there a next big thing that you expect to emerge with patient engagement over the next couple of years, two-three years that you can talk about?  Tom Mottlau: You hit the nail on the head, AI. But you know, keep in mind that's something in relative terms. It has been relatively just the last few years, and it has been something that's come up a lot. It seems there's a five-year span where something is a focus going way back, it was going from analog to digital.  When I first came here, it was going from wood-clad CRT televisions to flat panels, and now we have OLED right in front of us. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of progression in this market. And I would say AI is one of them, and Telehealth is another; I guess we'll find out for sure which one sticks that always happens that way, but we don't ignore them.  David: Yeah, certainly, I think AI is one of those foundational things. It's kind of like networking. It's going to be fundamental. It's not a passing fancy or something that'll be used for five years and then move on to something else. Tom Mottlau: Yeah, true. But then again, also, it's kind of like when everybody was talking about, okay, we're not going to pull RF cable that went on for years and years because they were all going to pull CAT5, and then next thing, you know, they're saying, well, we have to go back and add CAT5 because they got ahead of themselves, right? So I think the challenge for any company is nobody wants to develop the next Betamax. Everybody wants to develop something that's going to be longstanding and useful, and so it's incumbent upon us to vet out those different solutions and actually see real practical ways of using it in the patient room and trusting our partners and watching them grow. A lot of times, they're the test beds, and so that's the benefit of our approach.  By providing that platform and supporting those partners, we get to see which tree is really going to take off.  David: Betamax, you just showed your age.  Tom Mottlau: Yes, sir. That made eight tracks, right?  David: For the kiddies listening, that's VCRs. All right. Thanks, Tom. That was terrific.  Tom Mottlau: Thank you very much, sir.  David: Nice to speak with you. 

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT There is a lot of glass in public and commercial spaces, and the pro AV and digital signage industries have been applying all kinds of technologies to turn things like windows and dividers into part-time or full-time displays. In most cases, those jobs have come with compromises. There are films that might start curling at the corners, or discolouring. Mesh systems that look pretty good from the front, but terrible from the rear. And most recently, super-thin foils that need to be adhered to one side of glass panes. So what if the LED display was actually part of architectural-grade glass? That's the premise of a company called Clear Motion Glass - a Pennsylvania-based technology start-up that comes at the business from the angle of commercial glass. Clear Motion is a spin-out from William Penn Performance Glass, which has for many years been making and supplying laminated and tempered glass for commercial buildings. Unlike other products on the market, Clear Motion's LED displays are sandwiched inside sheets of laminated safety glass - so when a building goes up or is being retrofitted, the glass panels that go in are also active, highly-transparent displays. I had a good chat with Todd Stahl, a glass industry veteran who runs both the established and start-up businesses. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Todd, thank you for joining me.  Todd Stahl: Hey Dave. Yeah, I appreciate you having us on. It's going to be a pleasure to talk about some LED glass with you.  David: Yeah, tell me about the company. I saw you guys at DSE back in December. You were busy almost the whole time. So I didn't really have the time or the chance to have any kind of a detailed LED conversation, but I know that the company has not been around that long, but it's grown out of a pretty well-established “performance glass company.” Todd Stahl: Yeah. A little bit about the history there. So, at Clear Motion Glass, we're making the LEDs inside of the glass. I came across the LED glass around June of 2022, so I've had it for just about two years. The parent company is William Penn Performance Glass, and that's another company I started in 2011. We deal with high-end architectural Glass.  So, a cliffnote version: We go to the top architects in the country, and they're like, “Hey, who are you designing for?” And they'll say to us, “Hey, we want some really cool glass to go in the elevators for the Empire State Building.” So we got into the architectural space with glass, and actually, we'll William Penn, who was just voted one of the top 50 glass producers in North of North America. So something that we're definitely pretty proud of around here.  Then I came across LED glass around 2022, I thought it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen put inside a glass, and I wanted to be a part of it. David: So when you say you came across it, what do you mean by that?  Todd Stahl: So, there's another product in glass, another glass product that's been around, I'm going to say right around since 2000. It's a glass that goes frosted to clear from the turn of a switch, Switchable glass. So there's a company called Smart Film Blinds, and they were an applied film company that would actually take that, what we would call switch glass, but they just took the film and applied it to existing glass, and it was owned by Alan and Tracy Ackerman, and then they had this connection with LED Glass they weren't quite sure what to do with it. They knew it was really cool. And it had a chance to be really something big, but they were more of a film company, and then he and I got introduced, through a need that we had for some smart film, the switchable film, and then eventually we had a partnership for a while. Then we decided basically that I'll stick with the glass part, what I'm best at, and he'll stick with the film part, which was what they were best with. But that's how I got introduced to it, right around two years ago.  David: What you're marketing now is Clear Motion Glass. Is that your own product or are you reselling somebody else's manufactured product?  Todd Stahl: We have partners overseas, such as a company called Filmbase. That's where we get the actual LED grid or LED mesh. We bring that to my facility in York, Pennsylvania, which is in the south-central Pennsylvania area, we're 20 minutes south of Hershey, close to Harrisburg, and then we actually fabricate everything as a finished panel here. So we'll make the glass, we'll get the interlayer components. We have a laminating machine that actually works by pulling a vacuum and heating it up to certain temperatures. After that, it comes out, and we have a clear LED glass display.  David: So laminated glass is something that's been around forever. So this is just basically sandwiching the mesh in between sheets of laminated glass?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely making a sandwich component. We start with a piece of glass, say that's your component number one. Then, we start with the inner layer materials.  In a case like this, we use a couple of different techniques, but we use EVA, which is ethyl vinyl acetate. Then we'll actually put the LED mesh grid on top of that, then we put another piece of EVA, then we go with the finished component of the sandwich, another piece of glass, and we stick them in an oven, we run a certain cycle, and about four hours later, we have a laminated piece of glass, exactly how you described. It's a sandwich makeup for sure.  David: Was there a lot of R&D work involved in it? Because I would imagine if you're putting an LED mesh inside of an oven, then going to a very high temperature and all that, I'm thinking if I didn't know much about this stuff, I'd be wondering, what's all that heat going to do to this thing? Todd Stahl: Yeah. You know, we have to make sure that it can withstand certain temperatures, obviously, and if you don't heat, and just in general, if you don't get laminated glass hot enough, it doesn't bond, it does not bond correctly. What you have to achieve is cross-linking and cross-linking is basically the interlayer material to the glass itself, and that happens at a temperature of around 110 degrees Celsius, so it's not getting hot enough to cook a Turkey in there, so we're not really dealing with extremes. I think a lot of people might think when you're actually making glass out of what we call a batch, you know that's where the glass is heated up to 2000 degrees and you're really dealing with some extreme temperatures. It's not quite the same extremes at all when you're dealing with laminated glass.  David: So tell me what performance glass is, and what high-end performance glass is because I don't know the glass world terribly well.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, sure. So, so what William Penn performance glass is the performance name kind of all started because our glass looks great and it, but it's an all safety rated glass. So that's kind of the performance part of the glass. So, if you're looking at our glass, say that's used for glass handrails, that's a very specific glass that's chosen to withstand the certain load requirements of a structural application, and typically most of our handrails are tempered, and laminated glass. So there are two ways on this planet to make a piece of glass safety-rated. You either temper it or you laminate it. We happen to do both of those things in a lot of our projects, and it's kind of funny like obviously safety-rated glass is strong, but the only thing that's really taken into consideration when you're referring to safety glass are you automatically assume it's going to break and what happens when it breaks, right? So with tempered glass, you put a lot of stress on the glass itself through a heating and cooling process, and whenever that glass breaks, it breaks into small panels that would not be able to potentially cause a life-threatening wound, and then you have the exact opposite with laminated where if a rock hits your car, if that's ever happened to you the rock doesn't come through and the pieces of the glass, the shards don't come through, they stay together. So you got those two things to the requirements when you're thinking about what is safety rated glass.  David: With the Clear Motion product, is it an indoor product only, an outdoor facing product, or what are the use cases?  Todd Stahl: So what's really cool about our LED glass is that almost wherever you're using architectural glass right now, you can now use our LED displays. So it can be used in exterior applications, a building facade, glass canopies, and railings that may be exterior. All of the components are kind of encapsulated inside that glass, and that glass is making a nice, really safe, cozy home for the LED display inside of it. David: And it's bright enough that it can be on a glass curtain wall like an auto dealer?  Todd Stahl: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the really cool applications for it. In fact, you had mentioned at the trade show and boy, were we busy? I think I was just talking about this yesterday. We scanned around 450 people in that short show. Our voices were a little strained by the end of the evening. So, the brightness of our display at the show, Dave, was only running around 4%, and I thought that was one of the more amazing things about the product because it was still kind of bright at 4%. Later we started bringing that up because a few potential clients wanted to see it at 50-60% brightness. So yeah, you can totally use this as an exterior sign and get whatever brightness you need. I think some of the products are well over 10,000 nits depending on the needs, and I think one actually lasted up to 15,000 nits, so plenty bright for the outside.  David: Yeah, once you get to 3,500, you're good.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, exactly. David: On transparency. I see on your website that it says there is up to 90 percent transparency.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so when you get to some of the pixel pitches that are viewed from say, a distance of around a hundred feet, I think the pixel pitch at a 20, I believe that one may allow up to 90 percent of light to come through. It's really cool. I mean, you have this really great display, and then you're just getting all this, and you're not cutting off any spaces so if you have a traditional LED display, you can only view that from one side and I think that's kind of what's really amazing about this product and a lot of times when you're looking at the product, you don't even realize that it's transparent until the image would say it's rotating from one image to the next. And you're like, Oh, wow, that's clear, there are people behind there. So I think, yeah, it's really cool in that application.  David: From what I saw, because it's this mesh material, with super thin wiring in between each of the LED lights.  The challenge I've had with a lot of trans or “transparent products” is that they look good from the front side, particularly at a distance, but when you look at the back end of the things, there's a mesh, like a metallic mesh or something like that, a grid system that kind of makes it look like crap. Todd Stahl: Yeah. With a lot of the applied films that have been out there before, and there's not a whole lot of them, but there are a few, certainly from that backside, it doesn't look at all like the front, and the same thing, with the LED actual metal meshes, again, they look phenomenal from the front, and you get behind, and you're like, man, what am I looking at here? So with our product, what's really cool about that is you get a little bit of the halo effect, from the image that's playing on it, that you can see from, say, the view side of the glass, and then you get a slight reflection off of that front piece of glass that kind of bounces back through. So you see a little bit of a glow or a halo in the background, but it is not an eyesore, and it looks pretty good. You can see out, and you have a very clear picture of the people that you're looking through or whatever object you would be doing from the back of the product. It looks really good. It's a good look from the backside.  David: Yeah, there are numerous products out there that now do this kind of foil mesh effect, and you have to adhere it to the inside of a sheet of glass, which is all fine and everything else, but it doesn't look that good from the inside, does it? Todd Stahl: No, it really doesn't. The concept here, we touched on hockey a little bit, earlier, but you know, we have, you have all these hockey nets in the arena to protect the fans that a puck doesn't hit them, and most of those meshes are black. It's harder for our eyes to kind of pick up the black mesh than it is for white. There are some that have whites, but not many, and the black is blended in a lot easier. I'm a big hockey fan, so I've been to a few arenas, and the white ones are a little harder to, I think it takes away from the image more, and that's why we're using a black LED mesh.  When we first started, it was white, and it just didn't have as good of a; again, I thought it took away from the product from the backside.  David: So presumably there are limits in terms of the size of a glass panel that you can do because you've got a laminate in an oven of some kind and that they're only so big. So if you have, to use the example I mentioned earlier of, an auto dealer's glass curtain wall where the sheet of glass might be pretty darn big. How do you put multiple units together? And what does that look like in terms of cabling and everything?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. So we're always kind of limited in size by a couple of different things. Sometimes it might be the actual raw product glass that we're using. Some sheets are available to us, bigger and smaller, the width of the laminating materials, and then our oven as well. So basically, in our oven here in Pennsylvania, we can laminate an LED panel roughly about 6x10 feet. You know, that's a pretty sizable piece of glass, and then what we can do, if you're doing a glass facade it kind of gets into a little bit more of how the glass is installed, but you're basically stacking the panels. there's a control unit. That attaches to each panel of glass, and then those control units are all tied together and then that gives you one cohesive image plane from one panel to the next.  David: Do you have much of a seam in between them?  Todd Stahl: So, if you remember, at the trade show, I think we had two panels out there and we had a seam in the middle. So I'll see the seam, you'll see the seam, but when the image is playing, you really don't even notice it's there. A lot of times, depending on the application, a glass facade is a little different, because you're going to have all most likely all four edges of the glass covered, but, we have a lot of applications where the panels are being butt jointed together and it's a nice polished edge there. So, yeah, with the image running and stuff, you really don't even see it unless you get within a couple of feet of it.  David: So we're talking millimeters, not inches, in terms of a gap.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a gap's going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of three, three-sixteenths of an inch, plus or minus. David: So not much at all.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, not much at all. Like I said, it's pretty cool. When that image is going, you're like, it just looks like one big piece of glass.  David: And there are technical limits, like if, let's say, an airport curtain wall that might be like 80 feet high for the side of a terminal or something like that. Can you do that?  Todd Stahl: Absolutely. That can all be tied in. You'd have several zones there, and depending on how you're handling the programming from a laptop, and something like that, you just say zone one's the entire thing, and then you might break it down into individual zones if you want different things playing at different times, but yeah, we this is definitely designed to do entire glass facades or, curtain walls. David: All those little lights generate some heat. How does the heat get out?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we've been working with these products for about two years now, and I always expect when I put my hand on the glass to touch it, that it's going to be nice and warm, but it really isn't. The heat definitely dissipates quickly. There is some energy consumption, and we have charts for that. So once we get into a building design, we can get in there and say, “Hey, this is what you're going to need for your power requirements.” But it has very similar power requirements to current LED displays that have been around for a while. But yeah, it doesn't really create much heat. You would think it creates more, and I'm telling you, whenever anybody sees it, one of the first things that they almost always do is, “Oh, I expected that to be warm” and they touch it, and it really isn't.  David: Well, one of the criticisms or let's say what a naysayer might say about this, is, “All right, if I buy this, glass panel with the LED mesh embedded inside of it, what happens if there's a dead pixel? I'm stuck with that forever. It can't be repaired because it's sandwiched in between two sheets of glass.”  Todd Stahl: You know, it was my biggest concern. We spent a good bit of time.  I think the lifespan of the LED bulbs we're using is right under 11 years. So we found the biggest problem that we've encountered, and this took us a while before we were going to bring it to market because that's by far the biggest concern; anyone looks at that and goes, it's not the first time I've ever seen a bulb, you know? So there's a couple of things. There's been a lot of research and development to make sure when it comes out of lamination that we've already caused any bulbs to fail before those processes, and we actually have a little bit of a protocol we've developed. So, one of the biggest reasons a light bulb is going to fail is the heat and pressure in that vacuum. It's not so much the heat, but the pressure because there's a little bit of movement in there. So if all those connection points aren't just right, you're going to get a bulb that may come out after you've done all of the work, and then you fire it up, and you know, there's a lot of bulbs, and a diode and only one is bad, it's not good. So we actually have a pre-laminating process we run to actually replicate what is going to go through the stressors of the lamination process. And if we find a bulb or a diode that might not be working, we can replace it after that pre-cycle of lamination.  Now, on the flip side, let's say it's out there, it's in the field. If we use annealed glass on the front surface, so, annealed is not tempered, but the backlight would be tempered, so you're still dealing with a, fully safety rated tempered and laminated makeup. We actually have a drilling process where we can drill a core out of the glass, and we can actually replace that LED diode. What our experience is that once they come through lamination so far, with all the panels we've been working on we have not had one go out and we've put them in some areas of our glass production facility near our tempering oven, which is a really cool piece of equipment. It has a 600 horsepower blower that when the tempered glass comes through, it cools it to dissipate the heat, but it draws some dust, there's some heat back there. We've had a panel running there for two years in that condition without any issues. But yes, you can actually replace the bulbs if you need to, if one goes out.  David: So I'm curious when an architect and a general contractor puts a building up, they're thinking in terms of being there for decades, with maybe the exception of football stadiums, which seem to need to be replaced every five years or so. Is 11 years an acceptable operating lifespan for a sheet of glass for a builder or for a building owner?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. I mean, our interlayers, they last 20-30 years. The interlayers and the glass products, yeah, they're going to last a very long time. When we've been bringing this product to market I think, the event back to the switch light is one of the first times you're us glass guys are introducing electricity into the mix. And at first that back in 2000, I mean, it was really cool. It had the wow factor, but it didn't quite last as long for me. I didn't really get into the product until recently. But you know, that product will last around 10 years as well, and we don't get a whole lot of callbacks very often with any of our glass products.  But it seems like most clients are happy with a 10-year usage. That's been pretty good for the Switch Lite product. We talk about a decade out there to the architects and designers now that, that's a number that they all seem to be very happy  David: Let's say a car dealer goes in, they're fine, they're thinking in terms of the glass that they put in is there for 10 years, and they may switch it out anyways?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, I think you know that everybody wants to be fresh and new. So we found a lot of these high-end retail stores that we've designed with, for instance, a high-end jewelry line, and let's say they have started in California with a new design. They take that design and they move it east to New York City. By the time they get to New York City, whether that's been five to eight years, and they redesign the whole thing over again. So there's a cycle and I think, especially with retail, and a lot of these buildings, they always want to have a new, fresh look, and I think a lot of times they're redesigning in under ten years for a lot of applications.  David: I'm guessing I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing that there's hyper-competition from China for, what I would say is conventional LED displays and so on; you're probably going to have less competition for what you're doing because of the sheer weight of, even if they can make glass cheaper over in China, shipping glass panels over here would be just ghastly expensive, right? Todd Stahl: Yeah, definitely. It's pretty heavy to air freight glass, so it's always nice that there's this thing called the ocean between us and China, especially us being we've been a manufacturer forever, and thankfully, it is a little expensive to ship a finished product like that and take some time. So, yeah, and you know, right now, we're kind of pretty far ahead of the curve in how to actually laminate this properly. Our feeling was when we got involved with this, all right, we got the LED technology. Now we'll just throw it in some glass, and we got a home run and it wasn't quite as easy to just throw it in glass and end up with a finished product, you know? There are still some areas. We are not the only ones in the world laminating this product, but there are, from what I know, under five; we're the only ones who can do it with thin and large panels. We're the only ones that I know of that are actually doing some of the very specific things to make sure it's going to perform properly in these laminated glass applications. In our process, we are patent protected in our process where I think we're just like in the first phase, I don't know all the legal terminology, but we're going through the patent process for the way we laminate it.  David: Which will help you over here, won't help you with Chinese products, but again, there's that ocean thing in between. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We have a few intellectual properties here and I'm not one to get into too many legal battles, but we would have some type of recourse if someone does come and is trying to laminate in a similar technique the way we do it. David: I suspect you're kind of looking around the corner as to where this is going and the types of technologies that are emerging. Do you kind of see this as, what you have right now is Gen 1, and over time the light emitters will get smaller, the wiring will be even thinner and so on? Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly the way I see it going. I mentioned earlier: I really am a glass guy, and this is a glass company by people who absolutely love glass. Now, that's a Will Penn. Clear Motion, we have that same feeling as well, but this is more of a technology company. And what we're talking about today, like you said, generation one. We're going to revisit this in under five years, and it's going to look, I think, a whole lot different.  David: Who's buying it right now? And are you in the field with this?  Todd Stahl: So we're working on probably over 50 to 60 current projects right now in the design phase. Almost everyone we're working with has signed NDAs. So we can't necessarily say the clients that we're designing with right now. But one's a high-end fast food restaurant. They want one of these in each restaurant and that's actually for an exterior application.  David: Are these proposals or purchase orders?  Todd Stahl: They are proposals right now, so a lot of verbal commitments. We have a project we're working on in the Middle East in the design phase right now, that's 18 months out, the funding has been approved. They're designing it in the UK and then we're working with the audio visual company, I think in Texas. So this is really brand new.  David: You're in startup mode!  Todd Stahl: We really are, and this is the third company I've started literally from scratch, and I think it'll be the last one because boy, it is challenging. It takes a lot of energy. There's this great energy when you're starting it, and this is a little extra challenging because this is brand new. No one has ever seen clear LED glass displays like they just did not exist four years ago.  People might've thought they saw something similar. Like you said, it was a film or a grid that was put behind the glass. But when people are seeing this now, we're creating a new market, we're educating people to that market, and we're educating ourselves.  David: I'm guessing when people come to a stand at a trade show, you're at, the architects and the people who design physical spaces are the ones who are going, this is more like it. They haven't really liked the idea of films or foils and all that because of how they look at the back end or they're worried about a film sort of, particularly if it's exposed to UV light and all that, it's going to yellow and on and on…  Todd Stahl: So what the feedback from the A&D community has been? We did an AIA show in San Francisco last June, and we had one or two clients, say, “Hey Todd, we have the budget for this. We have clients who want this product, and we've been looking for it for years.” Then we start designing the project with them, and that's the thing: once I shake hands with an architect, we might not actually have that project begin production for 24 months to a year. So, depending if the building's coming out of the ground or if it's just a remodel of an existing one, it's a very long cycle until we actually get orders placed, and you know, something I've been dealing with for 30 years. It's kind of the way the industry is.  David: Infrastructure projects are never quick, are they?  Todd Stahl: No, they really aren't, but the A&D world is kind of our background. It's where we've been for a very long time in that space, and we've definitely noticed that companies, individuals in the audio-visual world respond to this entirely differently. This doesn't have as many questions in their minds. They're more educated because we've been used to dealing with LEDs for a very long period of time. So it's kind of interesting how the two markets work together, like the DSE show where we introduced the product, I would say more to the audio-visual world if I'm using the right terminology there, it was received just as with that much energy, a lot of more understanding right away, not as many technical questions. David: It's a variation on stuff they've been seen before, but maybe a better variation. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely, and the architects, like you were saying, and even in general, I think even though LG makes an applied film. The North American President of, I forgot the gentleman's name, he was in my shop a little over a year ago, and we were working with his film, and then we showed him our LED glass, and he was blown away by it. David: “There goes my business”  Todd Stahl: Well, I think he was like, I'm going to make that too. I don't think he was worried about his business, but that applied film that they had been using, again, from a very long viewing distance, the product looks great. It's not yet ready to be viewed in shorter viewing distances, but the fact that it's applied, I do think that there is something like when you're buying a high-end product, you don't want people to be able to come up and pick it off, and I mean that definitely happens with every piece of film, I think I've ever worked with in my life. The first thing people do is take their fingernails, and they try to scrape the edge of it. It's just something that is instinctual about humans. But I think if you take that film now, I always say, if you put a piece of film on glass, it's just film. Once you laminate that film inside of the glass, you now have a glass product that protects it.  It does what you were saying. It prevents it from being yellowed over time because the inner layer blocks out almost 100 percent of the UV rays. So I think it's a great home for the LED mesh.  David: So does William Penn and Clear Motion Glass, do they operate separately, or are you kind of in the same office, the same building, and everything else, it's just different business cards? Todd Stahl: No, actually, we are in the same overall building complex, but we're not connected physically. So Clear Motion, basically has the equivalent of its own social security number, which down here in the business and for business, the IRS wants us to have EIN numbers for our businesses. So Clear Motion has an EIN number. Will Penn has an EIN number, obviously, but they definitely operate as two companies but obviously very close connections.  David: And you are running both?  Todd Stahl: I am running both right now, and spoiler alert: two's a lot harder to run than one.  David: Yes, I bet. If people want to find you online, they just go to ClearMotionGlass.com?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, that's it. They can find us there. There are some emails there. They can shoot an email to us and we'd love to talk to anybody if this product's right for them we're really excited about it and definitely creating a lot of energy with it. David: Are you at a trade show anytime soon?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we're doing Infocomm, I believe. It's the middle of June out in Vegas. Are you going to be there?  David: Yes.  Todd Stahl: Awesome, man. We get to meet in person, then. We'll carve out some time for that, Dave.  David: Absolutely, yeah, and that's a good show for you. There are tons of pro-AV people there. Todd Stahl: Yeah, I love that. That's a new space for us. So we're a little extra excited cause that's definitely not like a glass trade show is.  David: All right. Todd, thank you so much for your time.  Todd Stahl: All right. Yeah. I appreciate it, Dave. It was a pleasure.  

Brute force selling usually comes about when someone feels like they have to sell their product or service, regardless of the needs, wants, or desires of their prospect. The alternative is better understanding, relationship building, and effective qualification. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing the idea of brute force selling. Welcome, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David. I know we've talked about a lot of different issues, you know, generating leads and those types of things. I'm very anxious to talk about this brute force. When I hear it, as a customer, I'm like "brute for selling? What exactly do you mean here?" Because I might want to run away from it. The Case Against Brute Force Selling David: Yeah, well, I'm not really here today to advocate for brute force selling, okay? So, definitely not my first choice, but it seems to me like there are so many people, so many industries that tend to engage in it, that I thought we should probably have the discussion. Jay: Yeah. I mean, nothing could be worse than chasing potential clients away. I think there's a fine line between brute force and still trying to help customers understand the importance of your products and using good sales techniques. It's really a fine line. Isn't it? David: It is. There's definitely a balance. And I think there's a big difference between persistence and brute force selling. But to get to the core of it. I think one of the biggest problems that a lot of small business owners and salespeople have today is that they think in terms of selling. I have to sell this product, or I have to sell this idea. I have to sell this concept. I have to sell this customer. "I have to sell," being the main thing. When you're approaching someone for the first time with the idea of, "I have to sell," it's easy to slip into the wrong gear about trying to push what you have onto them before you've even identified, whether they have a need desire, money, budget, willingness to spend, any of those things. When I think in terms of brute force selling, to me, it's often about people who have gotten into sales. They've been given maybe a lead sheet or in the old days, it was a phone book by their manager who said, "Go make sales. Knock yourself out." And when you don't know how to do that well, then trying to sort of push or bully or cajole people into buying from you becomes the default. So when the focus is just on sales as the first, middle, and end of the process, it's kind of a lose/lose for both the salesperson and the prospect. Also for the company. So it's a lose all the way around. Effective Qualification is the Key If we can train salespeople on the idea of first determining need, identifying whether or not this person is a good candidate for what we're selling. I mean, we're really just talking about qualifying. And a lot of salespeople and even a lot of sales managers fail to make the distinction between qualification and selling. When we're qualifying somebody, we're not trying to convince or persuade them to buy our stuff. We're trying to find out if our stuff even makes sense for them. And what I've seen over the years is that there are a lot of salespeople who waste enormous amounts of time pushing and trying to sell to people who have absolutely no capability even to buy what it is that they're selling. Without taking that step back and saying, okay, let's do a little qualification first. Let's find out what this person is dealing with, and what sort of help they need. And if I can even help them, if you do that first, then you can find out pretty quickly if somebody is a good prospect for you or not. And if they're not, then rather than trying to push them into buying something that they don't want or can't afford you can thank them for their time. And you can actually move on and get in front of somebody who has a much better li...

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT The people behind college and pro sports have increasingly focused on making events multimedia experiences that start well before fans put their bums in seats, and we're now starting to see hints of that in the way public spaces are programmed. Screens are sync'd, and content is carefully timed and triggered based on data and all kinds of variables. While most integrators and solutions providers are focused on executing on ideas and needs, the New York company ANC has for years being delivering services and software for what it calls branded entertainment. The work started with collegiate and professional sports, but more recently the company has branched into areas like retail and mass transportation - including the multi-venue, many screens experience that stretches between the Fulton Center in Lower Manhattan and underground to the World Trade Center complex. I had a great chat with Joe Occhipinti, ANC's Chief Operating Officer. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Hey Joe, thank you for joining me. I've chatted with ANC in the past with Mark Stross but that's going back like six years or something like that. I'm curious, first of all, what your company does and maybe we could get into a little bit about the background of basically buying the company back from prior owners that started as a family company and now it's going back as a family-driven company, right? Joe Occhipinti: Yes. So, Mark Stross, yeah, he's obviously still our CTO. So I'm sure you two had a fun-filled conversation. But yeah, a lot has changed in those five or six years that was probably just after, just before, Learfield had purchased ANC from our initial founder, Jerry Cifarelli Sr. who was kind of a pioneer in the signage and TV visible advertisement world. When he started ANC in the late nineties, it evolved the business into a large format, technology integrator for sports and other venues. So when Learfield took over, they obviously wanted to start integrating some of our technologies into all of their properties and universities which was great.  Joe Occhipinti: Yes. So, Mark Stross, yeah, he's obviously still our CTO. So I'm sure you two had a fun-filled conversation. But yeah, a lot has changed in those five or six years that was probably just after, just before, Learfield had purchased ANC from our initial founder, Jerry Cifarelli Sr. who was kind of a pioneer in the signage and TV visible advertisement world. When he started ANC in the late nineties, it evolved the business into a large format, technology integrator for sports and other venues. So when Learfield took over, they obviously wanted to start integrating some of our technologies into all of their properties and universities which was great.  It was a good five or six year run we had with them. And I was with the ANC for a lot of those years. I started back in 2012. So I saw the end of Jerry's initial ownership and then into the Learfield, and then I kind of parted ways with ANC in early 2022 and found my way into a company called C10 with Jerry's son, Jerry Cifarelli Jr. and shortly into 2022, Learfield reached out to us and was interested about looking into a potential acquisition and I think Learfield's business has changed a lot, right? Joe Occhipinti: Yes. So, Mark Stross, yeah, he's obviously still our CTO. So I'm sure you two had a fun-filled conversation. But yeah, a lot has changed in those five or six years that was probably just after, just before, Learfield had purchased ANC from our initial founder, Jerry Cifarelli Sr. who was kind of a pioneer in the signage and TV visible advertisement world. When he started ANC in the late nineties, it evolved the business into a large format, technology integrator for sports and other venues. So when Learfield took over, they obviously wanted to start integrating some of our technologies into all of their properties and universities which was great.  They were in multimedia rights and they've kind of shifted into a data-driven company with all their fans and engagement and I don't think it was core to them any longer and obviously with Jerry's father, having started the business, it was very near and dear to our hearts. We felt that ANC had all the right foundation but due to its success over 25 years, we can kind of take it back and change a few things, get the parts back together, streamline things, and get after it once again to bring the band back together. And that all happened in early 2023. We couldn't be happier to kind of be driving the boat again.  David: So, anybody if you meet at a cocktail party or a neighborhood party or whatever, says, what do you do? And more to the point, what does your company do? What do you tell them? Because it's quite involved. Joe Occhipinti: The loaded question. Hopefully they have like two drinks like one in each hand or something. But basically, the ANC consists of four business lines, we like to call it. So, the kind of the moneymaker, the thing that gets the most press is LED Technology installations and that could be the things that catch everyone's attention is obviously the large format LED displays but we're really a technology integrator, throughout the entire venue. So we have installed IPTV, we've installed TVs, we've installed full control rooms, things of that nature. And those are the apps which have a large format. I keep going back to that but the main video center hungs and arenas, center field boards and baseball. We have a 280 foot display at Westfield world trade center. Some of those marquee kinds of displays that you guys have heard and seen. Then we also have a services department or venue solutions we like to call it. After which all the pretty lights go up, we have to then maintain it and make sure it works for the life of that display or until the next renovation happens. So we actually have a fleet of operators out in the field who are going on pregame off days and making sure that modules are fixed and things are corrected. The proper content's loaded into the software and they're ready for the game presentation or for the next event or for the next change in scheduled content that's going to happen in an out of home venue. So we do a ton of that as well and then we also have our ad agency business. So that goes back to when Jerry started the whole business of TV visible signage, where we are acquiring inventory from teams that we work with or we go out and purchase it and then we also represent brands. So we'll place a discount tire behind home plate at a specific market that they would like to see or a number of different advertisers that we've been working with for years that really want to have that TV visible signage in sports our ad agency is mostly on the sports side we do some and out of home but obviously those are kind of owned by the properties and things like that so it's a little bit different and then what ties it all together is our software business. So It's called LiveSync now. It started as FasciaSoft, VisionSoft, VSoft and now it's LiveSync and it's all in the name. We specialize in syncing all your displays throughout the venue. So, somewhere like Westfield World Trade and Fulton Center, they're kind of one venue to put together. I think they have upwards of 75 or 80 displays between LCDs and LEDs and we have a constant stream of scheduled content. That's looping every 10 or 20 seconds 24*7 and you can sit there and watch in one area 5 to 10 displays all changing at the same exact time, frame to frame, everything running pixel to pixel. But the beautiful thing about live sync is what it does is we're wide open, open API, open source. If you want to play ball with everybody else that might be in the control room and we want to be able to trigger whatever else you might want to trigger with that piece of content. So if you wanted to run a home run graphic at Fenway park and you want to get your LED lights for a night game to flicker, you know when the guys around the bases. ANC Live Sync can trigger that software and it can all run synced and simultaneously. So, we really like to say that we can be the quarterback of the venue like somewhere like Wells Fargo Center. We trigger an IPTV program to have a goal animation run in the suites over whatever TV broadcast is being shown.  So, we've really come a long way in that regard. The software has come. Leaps and bounds, probably even from six years ago when you talk to Mark and we're really proud of the software that he's developed with his team. David: And this is your own software. It's not something you sell, right? It's software that you use when you're working with various customer venues.  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah. A lot of times our software is installed when we are doing the full install. Right. We don't really sell it out of cart. We have started to look into that, right? Like we think the software is at a point where it can do that and can be that. We did a deployment this year at I think it's PPG paints arena at Pittsburgh Penguins where another LED manufacturer got the LED job but they came to us for the software. So that was just a software standalone installation where we went in there into the control room and installed the servers and had it integrate with everything else they had there and it runs their live game presentation now. David: Right and when you're talking about being known for LED or being known for LED display control and so on but you're not a manufacturer or reseller of somebody else's product, right?  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, we're not a manufacturer at all. So we do have competitors in this space, right? You know, big name, LED installers but they're all manufacturers. So, even though we were competitors, we're kind of not, you know what I mean? Like you can see a world where we can come together with some of these and enhance their business. Right. We feel that we can do a good job on the installation side and on the service side. But we really talk to the clients and figure out what they need from the LED signage perspective and we go out and find the best possible product to deliver that.  And then we'd like to use our four business lines to create a cohesive partnership with that client. So, once we're in a venue and they want to add a display here and there. It's very easy to add it into our existing licensing software or to add it to our services. Right? So, we like to use or give the partner back ad dollars by finding somebody to buy advertisements on their home plate or elsewhere in the venue. So, we really can use our different lines to be a full service partner for all of our clients.  David: It's interesting. Years ago, I remember talking to somebody about shopping malls and how shopping malls, particularly in Asia, were no longer just seen as warehouses or Harmonized venues for retail. They were experiential places that were programmed and that had like programming calendars and special events and everything else related to it and it kind of sounds like what you're doing and what you can deliver is you're really programming a venue or in the case of down by the World Trade Center, multiple venues so that content cascades across them things happen and so on, but it's all kind of cohesive as opposed to maybe more traditional digital signage and just display work where there's something driving this, there's something else driving that maybe they once in a while sync up but they're not really working together.  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, I agree. I think these are all becoming everyone's fighting to get the people to their venue, right? I mean they want to drive sales or drive concessions or whatever it might be. And the malls are becoming more of let's go spend a few hours at the mall. I mean let's not just go pick up something I need, right? It's like, let's do this with the kids or see this special event or whatever it might be. And being able to create an atmosphere that's inviting and appealing to people's eyes kind of goes hand in hand with that. And then obviously you can promote the upcoming events and whatnot too. Right. So there's just more and more digital installations happening and the interesting thing that we're seeing in the business and it's happening in sports as well.  I mentioned Jerry Cifarelli Sr started with rotational signs like static banners behind home plate and on ribbons and that grew into LED behind home plate and then LEDs on Ravenstein, these massive center hongs. But now these at home venues and these sport venues are now expanding, right? You have these big conglomerates businesses that are doing stuff outside beyond just the stadium, right? Trying to get people there before the games and to the restaurants and to the bars and you're seeing digital marquee that you would typically see on the highway, kind of up on the back of a stadium or down the street at the bar that they just built, that's owned by the same kind of marketing company that owns the business or has similar interests. So, if they are kind of meshing a lot and they're all trying to fight for those eyeballs and fight for those people to bring the dollars and revenue in their way.  David: Yeah, it kind of seems like the worlds are converging, when I was reviewing your company website and seeing how deep a background you have in sports, both college and pro. And expanding into retail and in public spaces like mass transport and so on and thinking at first that well these are very different worlds but when you really think about it they're very similar worlds in a lot of ways these days because like airports are shopping malls and sports venues are no longer just the arena,  It's the multi purpose sort of event area with retail and residential and hotel and everything else and it's all being driven by the same developer or developer group. So they are harmonizing all this stuff.  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, that's exactly right. And we're here to help. Whatever those entities are to create a cohesive appeal to the entire look. And then what's happening too is a lot of our venues are old, right? Our malls are a little older, our stadiums are getting older. So you're going to see more of these stadiums, new builds will happen but you're going to see a lot of renovations where there's going to be seating upgrades and there's going to be changes to potential sight lines and things of that nature and make egress and easier and more exits whatever it might be. But the technology is really what's going to put the renovations over the edge and it used to be that once you walked through that little tunnel and saw the baseball diamond, the first LED you saw that day was then. Now it's like when you're a couple of miles away on the highway, you see a billboard that's on the stadium. So right away, you're triggering people's eyeballs before they even get to the park. Then you're tailgating and you're seeing advertisements run in your face and then you scan your ticket and you see an LED when you go through the lobby and the concessions and things like that, those can be obviously monetizable and you can have advertisements there. And the same things happening in malls and in transit hubs and in other places where they're trying to grab your attention before you even think about heading into that wherever you're at, wherever you're going.  David: Do you have to sell this whole notion into these kinds of venues or do they just inherently get it now because they've seen it in action elsewhere and it's no longer just this sort of exotic concept? Joe Occhipinti: They definitely have seen it and they want to do it. I think where we come in is kind of helping them bring that to life. So we actually have like an architectural designer that will go and meet with teams and say, Hey, we have this area of our club or of our mall or transit hub that we'd really love to be able to monetize and put some LED signage here but we don't really know how to do it. So that's where we come in, I would say we consult them but we're really just trying to provide another service to an existing partner or potential partner to say, Hey, we'll take some pictures, we'll create a virtual world and we'll throw some LEDs on there and you guys can kind of see and understand what it might look like. And how do we angle it right to catch the attention of people coming up the stairs so that whatever it might be. So you can maximize the eyeballs and the dollars that you would get from that, right? Or the feel or the presentation that you want there. So we're doing that constantly. We have done that at a lot of our marquee venues where we start with one install and the next thing you know is there's three or four or five installs over the next five or six years where they're adding a screen here or there because they realize it's a high traffic area or during walkthroughs or tours. It's a good place to promote their upcoming events or whatever it might be, you know what I mean? So we kind of do that a lot for our places just to allow them to continue to add to the technology and to provide a better presentation to their constituents that are at the venue.  David: Is it just the highly visible stuff? In the case of, let's say, a sports and events center, are you also driving the menu boards, menu displays in concession and the ticket windows and things like that? Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, we've done some of that. As I mentioned, Wells Fargo is like our, I don't want to say crown jewel but it's been a really great partner for us for I believe over a decade. And we literally do everything there from, they have a sports book lounge on their top level to where they were ingesting staff feeds and scores and betting lines, their main video screen is kind of kinetic. It comes down at one size and opens another and we just have to hit one button in our software which allows it to do that and then their IPTV system. I think it's upwards of 700 LCD or TV displays that they have across the venue and we don't have our own IPTV software but we built a bridge between us and their IPTV providers so that when they do score a goal or there is a win, we can send graphics out there. Or if something they want to promote to their suites or to certain areas of the business of the venue, I should say, we can do that. Or even emergent emergency messaging or something like that. We have the ability to go full blast on every display that we touch that's in there. And then even still, they're even adding more, we have billboards out on 95 there in Philly. They added some more displays on their outside, where if you go to a flyers game tomorrow, you'll see us up there kind of installing it. So, like I said, they're trying to get you from when you're a few miles away to get you thinking, you know, I'm excited for this game and I'm excited to participate in this event but also what goes out on there, you alluded to that. I kind of said the betting lines and things like that. But one of our venues we have in the city, we have two JP Morgan Chase banks and you think that's kind of like a sleepy thing like who's going there to see the LED. But what Chase does for their customers is while you're sitting there, you might see If there are any subway delays, we work with the MTA to ensure that you'll see any traffic it might be if you're heading to Queens and say, it'll say take the tunnel not the bridge or whatever it is. Right. And whether we'll pop up. So yeah, we're not creating this data but we're ingesting it from different feeds and from different sources and we're making it pretty, we're creating the graphical ways that it might show up and kind of add to the person's experience being at whatever venue they're at.  David: Right. Now if I talk to virtually any CMS software company out there these days  and I asked them about data integration, they'll say, of course, yeah we do all kinds of  data handling. We've got APIs and this and that where we're all over that stuff but I get the impression that there are very much different kind of tiers of this that you can have kind of basic data integration that yes, you could query, let's say some transit data if it's publicly available as an XML feed or something. From what you're telling me, this is quite a bit more exotic than that. Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, I believe it is. I mean, I think what we can do is if the weather variable says it's going to be cloudy, we create a graphical thing that shows what you would think would be cloudy and that shows up there, right? Or if when it's time for the weather to come through and it's sunny, the background will say 65 and it'll be sunny but if it's 65 and rainy, the background will have rain on it. So we're even going to that level where what the trigger is we're not just spitting out what the variable is but we're trying to create a cohesive content experience too, that kind of shows what's happening and then it allows us to trigger different items in our software too that if we can automatically change when the variable goes from top one to bottom one, it automatically changes the advertisements that would run in that happening. So it even comes with efficiencies on our end of what we're able to and how we're able to gain presentation and things of that nature. But yeah, I mean these are little subtle things that the customer or the fan really appreciates and it's just great for us that we have an in-house design team. We recreate these things, we're then our statistical engineers and our developers are then creating ways for it all to work together. So yeah, you do have your base level where we just want to see the scores on a ticker which we're happy to do but if they want to get more involved and do some more graphical things to enhance the experience, we're obviously able to do that as well. David: When it comes to things like game day experiences for big sports venues and multi purpose venues like that, do these organizations have their own teams that handle all that and they just kind of work with you or are you actually doing the game day experience for these companies? Joe Occhipinti: It's different at every venue. We're happy to be part of the team. However they would like us to be. It goes anywhere from a place like the game bridge field house, right? They just hosted the all star game and we live sync touches every LED display that's permanently installed there. And our operators heavily involved in production meetings need to understand what the run of the show is to load the content prior to the game. He's been there so long. I'm sure maybe he will make some say, Hey, maybe try this or that. I don't know but he's been there for a while. He's great at what he does and they fully trust us to carry out the run of shows that they have created but what might be in that run of show or graphics that the in-house design team also creates. So that's kind of part of the services department that I mentioned before, we also have graphic designers in house that if they want a special intro or some graphical element for a camera like a kiss cam or something. These keys and things that you see that help with game press, we kind of create those things for them. And our guys are downloading it, testing it, making sure that it works for the game when it inevitably runs in the game. So it is varying levels somewhere passive, right? We're like, Hey, we're here, let us know what you need us to do. Let us know what content needs to be run. And then in others where we're heavily involved where we're talking to them twice a week on content and churning out thousands of hours of graphical design and in their production meetings and we're upgrading their stat layers every season and creating a new look that might go with their season tickets or whatever it might be. Right. So they would kind of like to have that whole cohesive kind of brand. Brand look that they go for. So it does vary per client just based on your level with them and what they want to get out of the relationship.  David: Your company background is much more in sports but as we mentioned earlier, you kind of branched into retail and mass transport and other kinds of things like that. How does the business break down now? Is it still predominantly sports or are you seeing quite a bit of traction in these newer areas?  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah. I mean, obviously the legacy business, it used to be ANC sports and we dropped the sports when we started to foray into other things, the at home kind of markets. I would say we do more volume and on the support side but there's obviously a lot of growth and a lot of greenfield on the place we call it places are out of the home side. And we've been lucky enough to do some impressive installations where the clients have trusted us to perform those, even though we had a lack of experience in it. I've mentioned Fulton and Westfield, that was our first foray into it and was a hit and it looks great and still looks great, seven eight nine years later. We did a really good install down in South street seaport which we believe is really impressive. We did some stuff at Moynihan train hall. So we've been lucky to have some big marquee type installations. We are trying to build our relationships with a lot of the out of home players without naming any names. Like we were trying to build those relationships and just kind of see what the partnerships look like there and be an installer and integrator for them as well, just like we've been able to do in the sports.  So, I think the numbers will probably say that we're still more of a sports type business. But I don't think it's that far off from being even one day and I think we are going to put some resources behind it and we're going to do some stuff with the software that will help us change. We are in the process  of changing our user interface to be a little bit easier to use. We're doing some cloud type and quick play type stuff at NBC Universal right now, where they can walk around with their phones when they're doing tours and they can just change what's being displayed on the screens from their phone. So we are putting some resources behind it because we believe in it that we could help a lot of different partners achieve their goals there. David: I would imagine the typical media companies, even very large ones, would be pretty happy if somebody handled these more involved installations like Times Square or an entertainment district where there's a lot of screens because they're primarily in the business of selling media time and display faces and so on. I don't know that they really want to get all that dirty in terms of running these kinds of networks, particularly when they start to get quite complicated.  Joe Occhipinti: Literally and figuratively dirty like we're also installing the displays. It's a heavy construction type thing too. Right. So we're installing the display, we're doing the steel work and then we're plugging everything in and running the show as well. So yeah, I think we have a lot to offer. And obviously, we need to make some enhancements and it's almost like the out of home stuff isn't easier. It's different from in-game live presentations. And like you said, the legacy business was built that way. So when we got into the out of home market, it worked for out of home but we had some of these features like scheduling and overtakes and some of these things but they weren't maybe as robust as they are today cause we started doing more in it.  So, we've really focused in and debugged them and made them stronger and better so that we can run an out of home type market but it's almost too robust for the simple kind of one display on the side of a building like I'm talking about where we specialize is game presentation where you see five or six or seven different screens. They all have to be synced to kind of make the game presentation feel cohesive or in certain venues like Westfield, where you see many screens at once, you don't want it to be choppy and look off but we're maybe a little bit too robust when it comes to a single display, right? And because we're too robust, our features, maybe a little bit heavy in terms of costs. So we're going to try to address some of those things and really create something that would get all the features that we have but can also be used in an easier type setting as well and not be so cost effective and then like I said, we want to start getting our cloud infrastructure stronger and things like that, so that people can go by and change it with a phone. Right now we have people on staff that are scheduling these places for us in our lives. They're voting in and scheduling all these things. It would be easy if you work for Westfield World Trade and you're trying to court a client. You don't have to coordinate with ANC and the scheduler to, Hey, between 11 and 12, I want to show Sixteen Nine podcasts on all displays.  You could just walk around and you could press a button on your phone and right when you're showing up and you can just launch it. Right. So we're trying to do things like that.  David: The Fulton Center thing is interesting in how it crosses into a world trade in the Oculus retail area and so on. What did you learn out of that in terms of putting together a visual network that was going to run across multiple venues that aren't necessarily visible to one another. They're connected by tunnels or concourses but they're different things in certain respects and also, instead of a game where people are sitting for 40 minutes, almost all of them are constantly on the move.  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah. So obviously they placed the screens in places where they felt there was going to be higher traffic, right? Like an entrance to a subway tunnel or you come out of the path from Jersey and you're trying to get up into street level Manhattan and you walk that past, what amounts to almost four or five hundred feet of screens and it was definitely a little difficult to envision what they were trying to do but as it started to come together, it made a lot of sense to us and they kind of made it a little easier on us than had they treated the different areas of the facility to want to run different things, right? They want the whole facility to run everything all at the same time. So we're able to create the software, create batches that have all the displays and throw all the content in there and then schedule them appropriately rather than this side underneath by the path station needs to run this at this time and then over by tower two, we want to run that. And then in Fulton, we want to run this other thing.  They are two separate venues so we have two different schedules going at each one because they're different trains that run at each station, right? So in Fulton, you have four or five. And in Westfield, you have the AC and the two-three or whatever it is. So you have to decipher what goes where but the way they wanted to run it allowed things to be a little bit easier on the back end but we had to deal with network infrastructure and everything else like that which was new to us in this type of a venue. But they're really there to obviously be advertisements. Also, they need to make the place feel beautiful. Have you ever been down there? It's like all marble, it's a really beautiful facility. So they had to fit and they wanted to be in your face cause they were driving advertisements. They want to be appealing but they still need it to be beautiful and look good as well. So there was a lot of pressure on us too. The 24/7 nature of it is a little different than sports where you have a game and if something goes wrong, you generally have till the next day or two days later to fix it. That doesn't happen outside of home. Things gotta be working 23 and a half hours a day with not a lot of downtime and not a lot of issues happening because advertisers are walking through it and potential advertisers and the customers. So it was a lot of pressure on us. We literally have people walking the facilities downtown, New York, for 18 hours a day reporting issues and fixing issues. We don't want to have any downtime on these displays because the stakes are that high.  David: Yeah, really. How many people do you have working in the company? Roughly?  Joe Occhipinti: We have about just under a hundred full timers and depending on the seasonality of it, we have around 200 part timers that work for us all across the country.  David: And of the full timers are most of them kind of in the greater New York area. Joe Occhipinti: There's probably like 30 percent in this area, just cause like I said, we have a lot downtown and kind of work at our headquarters in Westchester but we're pretty spread out. We have upwards of almost a hundred venues across the country where we have something.  So, in those markets, like in LA or Washington DC or Baltimore, where we have a lot of different things going on. We have full timers that are in those markets actually running a stable of part timers as well.  David: Yeah, because they need to be there. They can't just say, well I can get there next Thursday or something. Joe Occhipinti: Yeah, they gotta be there at a moment's notice most of the time. .  David: Alright. This is great. If people wanna know more about ANC, they just go to ANC.com.  Joe Occhipinti: Yeah. ANC.com.  David: Nice and simple.  Joe Occhipinti: We do some stuff on social media but LinkedIn is really probably the one that makes the most sense if you want to check out some of our posts and what we've been up to lately. But we just did a full rebrand. We changed our logo. We kind of changed our colors after we bought the company back. I think the website looks great. So yeah, ANC.com will take you straight there and you guys can learn everything there is to know about us.  David: Powered by C10, I see. Joe Occhipinti: Powered by C10. C10's still around. Obviously, Jerry Cifrelli Jr. founded that company and that was the vehicle from which we acquired ANC but obviously with the legacy he had with his father and the name brand that ANC had, we decided we wanted to keep it. And just give it a refresh and push it forward. David: All right. Joe, Thank you very much for your time.  Joe Occhipinti: Thank you, Dave. This has been great. I appreciate it.

David, Devindra, and Jeff read up on Book of Clarence, hike into the surrealist world of Sasquatch Sunset, and dive deep into the AI scares of Eternal You. Then Blake Howard joins us for our review of Ferrari. Check out all of Blake's podcasts at One Heat Minute Productions. We're making video versions of our reviews! Be sure to follow us on the following platforms: YouTube Tiktok Instagram Threads Weekly Plugs David -  Decoding Everything: Dave's Sundance Diaries Devindra - Framework Laptop 16 review Jeff - Jeff's Cameo Page Shownotes (All timestamps are approximate only)    What we've been watching (~27:13) David -  It's What's Inside, Sasquatch Sunset Devindra - Eternal You, Kid corner: Blaze and the Monster Machines Jeff - Book of Clarence, Delicious in Dungeon Featured Review (~1:09:54)     Ferrari SPOILERS (~1:43:21) Support David's artistic endeavors at his Patreon and subscribe to his free newsletter Decoding Everything. Check out Jeff Cannata's podcasts DLC and We Have Concerns. Listen to Devindra's podcast with Engadget on all things tech. You can always e-mail us at slashfilmcast(AT)gmail(DOT)com, or call and leave a voicemail at 781-583-1993. Also, follow us on Twitter @thefilmcastpod. Credits: Our theme song is by Varsity Blue, the newest project byTim McEwan from The Midnight. This episode was edited by Noah Ross who also created our weekly plugs and spoiler bumper music. Our Slashfilmcourt music comes from Simon Harris. If you'd like advertise with us or sponsor us, please e-mail slashfilmcast@gmail.com. You can support the podcast by going to patreon.com/filmpodcast or by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, join us for a fascinating discussion with our guest David Fletcher, General Manager of Lone Star Sports and Entertainment. David gives us exclusive insights into the sports business industry, highlighting the economic impact of major sporting events on Houston. We learn about LSSE's role in the city's sports landscape and the excitement for the upcoming Tax Act Texas Bowl. David also enlightens us on why Houston is a major sports hub, touching on upcoming events like the college football championship and the 2026 FIFA World Cup. Tune in for a thrilling exploration of the fast-paced world of sports business. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chris talks with David Fletcher, the General Manager of Longstar Sports and Entertainment, about the intricacies and realities of the sports business world. David describes the significant economic impact of major sporting events on the business community, highlighting their ability to draw in substantial revenue and tourism. We discuss the role of LSSE in the Houston sports scene and its involvement in exciting upcoming events like the Tax Act Texas Bowl. David addresses some common misconceptions about the sports industry, revealing the hard work, long hours, and sacrifices behind the scenes. We delve into what it means to be a good teammate in the sports industry, focusing on traits such as being coachable, ready, and positive. David shares insights on why Houston has become a hotspot for sports business, citing its prime location, diverse population, and robust infrastructure. We discuss the upcoming national college football playoff championship and the anticipation it's generating in Houston. David gives a preview of the 2026 FIFA World Cup, expressing his enthusiasm for the global event to be hosted in Houston. I explore personal topics with David, such as his first job experience, his preference for Tex-Mex over barbecue, and his dream 30-day sabbatical destination. David shares his passion for skiing in Park City, Utah, expressing gratitude for the support and involvement of the Houston community in their work. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS David Fletcher About David TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet David Fletcher, general manager of Longstar Sports and Entertainment. David shares his insights into the business of sports, as well as the economic impact major sporting events can have on the business community. David, I wanna welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for coming today. David: It's great to be here, Chris. Appreciate the opportunity. Chris: So let everybody know, you're the general manager of what's called Longstar Sports and Entertainment here at Houston. Tell the audience a little bit about what that company is and kind of how it fits into the sports landscape here in Houston. David: Yeah, longstar Sports and Entertainment, or LSSE, as we try to call it with such a long name, is really the events production and management company at Houston, texans. So we are a primary outlet for event production, promotion and really a focus to our efforts to date around filling event dates at NRG Stadium. Most of what we do, chris, is in the sports space, although we have certainly done fair share of shows in the entertainment side, but college football, international soccer, rugby are all really big parts of what we do and inside of that we can do anything and everything that we need to do to make an event successful. We've promoted and negotiated and done our own events. We work with partners like ESPN or the Major League Soccer to host events at our building for them. We work with global brands like Manchester United, real Madrid or even Taylor Swift to bring events to our place in a variety of different ways. So really our focus is on bringing people together in Houston and we've done some other things over the years some investments and some events outside of NRG Stadium. But at our core we are a major part of making NRG Stadium one of the world class destinations for events and we're very proud of what we've been able to do over the last 21 years. Chris: That's what I love about kind of the focus at LSSC and the Texans for that matter is really a focus on doing things for the benefit and betterment of Houstonians. It seems to be kind of maybe a core focus. David: No question. I mean, look, at the end of the day, our organization is only focus on three things it's creating experiences, it's delivering incredible vowed partners and it's about doing great things for Houston. So, in that core capacity, major events, whether it be bringing Leon O Messi to play at NRG Stadium in an event like Copa America a few years ago I mentioned Taylor Swift we had a chance to host her in 2018, or Keddie Chesney or George Straits or Tim McGraw done shows with all of them over the years to the big time college football, like the Tax Act Texas Bowl that we host each and every year. Our focus is on really those three initiatives and I think they play into exactly what you said, which our organization has been all about, and the family the McNair family has been all about since day one. Chris: So, speaking of the Tax Act Texas Bowl, where we've got a match up right around the corner with Oklahoma State and Texas A&M excited about that and I would think that there is some excitement from those fan bases about being here at Houston. David: No question, our 18th year of hosting that college football postseason spectacular that happens each and every year at NRG Stadium. Last 10 years we've had the Big 12 in SEC and you mentioned it Texas A&M, who's obviously one of, if not, the biggest collegiate brand in this part of the world, going and taking on Oklahoma State, an old rival there from the Big 12 days and 20th ranked Oklahoma State Cowboys, I might add, who made it all the way to the Big 12 championship game this year and have the nation's best running back in Oli Gordon. A lot of things to be excited about on both fan bases. Texas A&M obviously a great brand, but had their struggles on the field relative to their expectations this year. A lot of transition, including bringing in a really exciting new coach and Mike Elko, and this is an opportunity for both of these teams, but particularly Texas A&M, to start their 2024 March to the championship this December 27th. Chris: Very good. So let's talk a little bit just about you and kind of how you got into the sports industry and you've been general manager now at LSE like 10 years. That's crazy because I can remember when you first took over the role. So 10 years goes by fast. David: It goes by real fast, chris. Look, for me sports has been an incredible part of my life, like many, since my early days of youth, I know as a kid. For me there wasn't a day that didn't go by literally a day that I didn't have to go to some practice or didn't get to go to some practice of some kind, played a lot of sports really important to my family growing up and ultimately developed a very strong passion for sport itself. As I got a little older I was in school at the University of Texas I realized that you could make a business out of it. You could create a life around the, not just playing on the field, and for me my playing days they definitely ended in high school, which is okay. I still get to this day, get to go out there and try and hack it with the best of them every once in a while, but I do it vicariously most of the time in working with my kids and coaching them and watching them grow. So for me, like I said, I knew sport was a big part of what I had a passion for when I graduated from UT. I had an opportunity to be to work for an NFL team in my hometown right here in Houston Texas. They didn't even have a name until a few weeks into my job, but that was the Houston Texans, and so coming out of UT and having the opportunity to be a part of building a professional team no less an NFL team from the ground up was something that I thought was really cool and I thought would be something that would help fuel that passion further, and it has. There's no question, of course, as a graduate coming out of college, many of us, myself included had bills to pay, and working as an intern at any sports team is not a great way to pay off those bills very quickly. But you know, I knew I had. I knew I had a goal in mind. I knew that I could make a business out of this if I really focused on making the most of the opportunities I had about keeping a positive attitude and really just taking every opportunity I could to grow, and I did that. I worked at the Texans during that first season, had an opportunity after that to get into a sales side where I did start making money working in media sales after leaving the team, spent a few years doing that for the University of Texas Athletics and then with the Houston Rockets, but I had a chance to return back to the team in 2010 and have been with the Texans in some way or shape or form ever since and that's been a lot of fun to really get to be in my hometown to work for the NFL team ups and downs included along the way, right, as we've had some great years and some not so great years. But going back to what I talked about earlier about being able to make an impact, particularly in my hometown, it's been an amazing opportunity for me and I still wake up every day and I know this is gonna sound really silly and I've grown a lot in my career, but we office at NRG Stadium and there are a lot of days where I walk in I'll hear the voice guy, david Brady, in my head going welcome to NRG Stadium. Chris: And it's just for me as I walk in the office. David: You know, it's a subtle reminder in my head that you know what. This is something pretty cool and this is something really special and been fortunate enough to be a part of a lot of things that have helped grow this community as a sports destination and then hopefully a lot more going forward. Chris: That's great. I mean it's a very unique position, unique opportunity. It relates to working for an NFL franchise. Right, there's only 32 franchises that you can work for, so let's talk again. So you work your way up and then you get this opportunity to move into leadership and I like to talk to guests, entrepreneurs, about leadership. So let's talk about that with you, kind of give us a little idea of your journey. Who were some of your mentors that you kind of molded your leadership style after? David: Well, I think mentors are so important, chris. They're so important to provide you you know reality, to provide you guidance, to provide you you know somebody who can ultimately be a resource, good and bad, in any situation. You know, for me it started with a good friend of ours and I still think about him all the time as Jamie Roots, you know, arguably one of the best in the business, president of the Texans for 20 plus years and spent spent really so much time, energy and effort in creating and ultimately growing the Texans brand, and so getting a chance to watch him and be a part of his team for almost a decade myself was something that you know, I've taken so much from. You know, the things that we focused on were about relationships, and that's really where it starts in any of these businesses is, you know, whether you're working with clients, teammates or employees and just trying to find ways to connect. You've got to be able to connect at all levels and build relationships with people, no matter what role they're playing in your business. So it's starting with relationships first. You know, I think, looking at how Lone Star has been approached I talked to Jamie about this a lot over the years Texans, so important and ingrained in the business of, or the fabric of, the Houston community. But what Lone Star has really helped do is expand the reach beyond just football and reach into what is already arguably the most diverse community in the country and bring them in to a place that they could celebrate, that the passions they have can create memories that last a lifetime and ultimately, yes, do business. You know, and so you know, lone Star helps us reach in. We've done, you know, 21 Mexican national team soccer events at our stadium. We've hosted Beyonce. We've had, you know, lsu take on Wisconsin or, you know, coming up, the national championship game for college football. Yes, there's some core elements that are consistent across every sport, every entertainment property, every football event that I just mentioned, but each of those tie people back to our business, they tie people into, or they bring people into, our community and they ultimately, you know, give us an opportunity to create even more momentum for the team and for Houston going forward. So, when I look at how we've approached that from a leadership perspective, you know it's really been thinking about how our business, my business, can impact people outside of what we do in the Texans. And with that, you know, like I said from the beginning, it starts with relationships. Chris: Hey, you hit the nail on the head because I think that's true. No matter what business you're in, if you're a one man shop or you're growing it to be bigger, it's all about relationships, like you said, with your external partners but more importantly with your internal teammates. So, talking on that subject a little bit, let's talk a little bit. I know you know you've built a team around you at LSSC to help put on and promote these events. What are some of the things you look for when you're going through that process? One maybe identify whether it's through the recruiting process or onboarding or, as they're there, in kind of the training to make sure you're making the best decision you can in building that team. And then maybe we'll talk about the other side is when you know maybe this wasn't the right fit, the harder decisions to make. David: Well, I think it starts. You know I mentioned it earlier, but to me there's really three core elements of being a good teammate, and I think these matter whether you're the intern or you're the leader of the organization. One be coachable right. Nobody that I have ever met, even the best in the business, know everything right, so be able to take advice, take criticism, learn from your mistakes, and that's something I think's really important. Two be ready, right. Be when opportunities exist, don't be afraid to raise your hand, don't be afraid to speak up, don't be afraid to go all in. You never know when an opportunity could be the best opportunity for you if you don't ask. So be coachable, be ready and then, from my perspective, just be positive, right. The attitude is the only thing that any of us can control, and my experience and my life has taught me that if you focus on the good, you have a lot better chance of getting there than if you focus on the bad. And that speaks to communication internally. That speaks to the way you approach how you position your business. It speaks to how you approach your competition right. Ultimately, at the end of the day, if you focus on the good, there's a better chance you're gonna get good. Chris: Like I couldn't agree more on that positive mindset, kind of staying positive, focus on the positive, learn from the bad and the negative maybe, but your primary focus has got to be on improvement in a positive way. Yeah, again, there's books written about it all over, but mindset makes a big difference. David: No question, no question. Ultimately, if you're a teammate for us and you've got those qualities, we feel like that's a great start to being a positive contributor to our group. Chris: Well, no just from being around the organization as much as I have. Y'all are known the Texans and LSSE. You're known within the sports industry of training people to be great and I guess that's a blessing and a curse. You get really good people but then people come and take them. David: Well, I've always had the mentality, chris. I know it's one that may fly in the face of common thought, but look, if anybody's being approached or anybody's being seen as having an opportunity coming from where we have brought them to, then we've done our jobs the other day and so we wanna keep as many of those on our team as we can, no question, but many times, for a variety of reasons, you have to accept that maybe reality, and so do the best of what you've got, be ready for the next opportunity, keep moving forward. Chris: So, working in the world of sports, what's one of the things you think is maybe the biggest misperception that most have about what you do? Cause it sounds pretty glamorous. David: Well, that's probably the biggest misperception. I think that, and that I have access to every ticket for every event all the time. My wife still sometimes even has that misperception, but I love her for it. No, look, I think the reality is that. I think that people do think that. Well, let me back up. I think there can be a perception that it is all glamorous all the time. Right, there's a lot of very visible and very talented people that are in the media all the time, that are compensated well, that are creating brands of their own. There certainly is an element to that, but I think that more often than not, it's a job that, if you don't have a passion for what you're doing, what you're doing, it's gonna be hard, because the hours are long, holidays are not really holidays. The players have negotiated a very significant salary, and that's not always the case for everybody else. And on the business side, and there are so many facets of what working in sports can be, and I think that's also, at the same time, an opportunity A lot of people look at. Well, you work for a team so that you're working in sports. Working in sports can be working for an agency that's working with a brand that is creating a partnership with a team. It could be working on the media side, bringing the events to life through social, digital and television content. It could be being a lawyer that negotiates contracts. It could be taking tickets and welcoming people to NRG Stadium, and so there's just so many different ways. There are over 7,000 people that work on a major event day at NRG Stadium. Just on the day, just on the day itself, right Between part-time staff, texans, employees, police fire, you name it. That's crazy. So it's such a big it becomes its own little city. So ultimately, there's a lot of different ways that sports can touch somebody. Most often, people just think of the players and what happens on the field. Chris: Well, it's nothing. You said when you started that, and I think it's true and it transcends all industries Passion To be really good at what you do, you have to have a passion for it, because it's long hours and putting in real hard time to learn and advance and grow your expertise at whatever it is, and so it has to start and stop a passion. David: No question, and if I look towards my life personally, it's been the fuel that's put me on the path to the successes that I've had. I mentioned it from the beginning. I mean, I started out as an intern with the Texans. I'm very proud of the fact that I'm the only intern or the only member of the executive team at Texans that actually started out as an intern with the team itself and that wasn't by accident. I mean, certainly there's a lot of good fortune along the way and I was able to produce results when needed. But I look at that as a testament to. Without the passion that I had, I wouldn't have been able to go through the 120 hour weeks as an intern, making minimum wage, I might add. You know working on, you know lifting heavy equipment or organizing, you know volunteer groups or you know putting together hours of copy that may not even be used, right. I mean, it's just those things that are just little steps along the way that, personally, I had to do, but I think they apply to anybody who has felt success in their business is that it starts with that passion. Chris: Yeah. So let's turn the conversation a little bit and talk about something that I don't think gets talked about enough, certainly at least here in Houston. We, when you step back and look at it, we, being Houston, which means you and others have done an amazing job of making Houston a true, like sports event destination. So we can talk about that a little bit, but what I want to do is connect that to how that the impact that has on the business community in Houston, because it's significant. David: It's massive, you know. So I'll start with a couple of things. One, you know, I think Houston's success as a destination for sport really points to. You can point to a lot of things that have been contributing factors, and they all have been geography center of the country, center of the continent, certainly a very, a very easy to get to market with all the infrastructure here from the great airports, obviously our traffic and our freeways. But the port you know, the infrastructure itself is fantastic, have served us well over the last 20 plus years with this latest renaissance, and we'll going forward. You've got a Some may need some tweaking, right? Chris: No question about it. David: I mean NRG is certainly, you know, a fantastic, world-class facility throughout its history. But that definition certainly has changed over the years and there's opportunities to continue to be the biggest and the best that we're working towards getting in the future. But the market seven plus million people in the DMA it's the most diverse market in the United States. All of that creates a lot of reasons why Houston has been a major destination. But I think the most important element is the leadership and the people and when I say people I mean the people at all levels that help contribute to the experience that's created when major events. Stakeholders are looking for a place to go and they come into Houston and they get to see it. We've got a number of groups that have worked together very successfully over the years the Texans and Lone Star, nrg Park, houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, all the major professional teams, harris County, houston Sports Authority, houston First Mayor's Office, city and Fire, the Texas Medical Center. All of those groups and many others have created a winning formula with how we approach the event experience, whether it's a festival, a conference or the Super Bowl. You throw in the hospitality community, which Houston First is certainly a driver of, but the thousands of unbelievable hotels, restaurants and entertainment options that are here in this community and how they collaborate and work together around these major events. And you see, no other market in the country can offer what we have as a collective package, and that's why you've seen Houston be awarded more major sporting events than any other market in the country over the last 15 years. That's impressive. Chris: I mean, people don't know that. They don't, it doesn't get talked about. David: They don't, they don't. There's certainly a lot of energy around. You get the first one right and then it just kind of dominos and we've been very aggressive as a community in pursuing those options. We've been very successful and when we get those options here to put our best foot forward, there are great resources at state level that certainly help with that and a spirit of collaboration with the governor's office to try and generate as many major events in the state of Texas as possible. So those are all winning points in the formula for success. But it really starts with the people and as we look at the future of the sporting event business, the major event business in Houston, there's a reason why we keep going after this and a big part of it is what you talked about the economic impact. Pick any number of these. These events Final four, college football, playoff, national championship game, fifa World Cup, super Bowl, taksac, texas Bowl, copa America I'm missing thousands of events that happen and are the Major League Baseball All-Star game, nba All-Star game, mls Cup. All these events that you see have really generated billions of dollars collectively for our community and economic impact. That's people coming to Houston and staying in our hotels. They're going and having a great time down in Galveston. They are eating at some of the world's best restaurants and that fuels our economy. We don't have the typical transient business that a vacation destination like a Miami or New Orleans may have, where entertainment in the community can spark a lot of travel. We are very much focused on conference events and entertainment opportunities and we do it better than just about anybody else out there. Chris: So let's kind of try to, you know, put some context around that. You mentioned, and obviously I'm well aware of the Texas Bowl, Taksac, Texas Bowl economic impact of that event to the greater Houston area. David: Annual basis over the last 10 years has been over $30 million on average. Every single year, we'll have anywhere between 25 and 30,000 people traveling in, staying in our hotels, restaurants, for three or four days ahead of the event. You've got people they're even driving in, too right, people that are coming in from the outer areas getting to celebrate that event. So that's meaningful, especially when that event specifically happens every year. It's right, it's a re-accuracy. End of the year, end of the year, when a lot of people are traveling for the holidays or maybe not doing as much, we've got an event that brings people into our community. That brings people here that may not be from a drivable distance. They may be coming from, you know, south Carolina, or Louisiana, or Florida, or Colorado Now that the Big 12 has expanded or Arizona, so you know, it really is something that fuels those businesses and gives our community as a whole an opportunity to celebrate around a major event, and we're proud of what that particular event has done, as well as, obviously, many others. Chris: Then we've got a couple of big events on the horizon. I want to talk about some of that. So let's talk about the first one, and that's the national title football college football playoff championship on January 8. It's a huge deal. It's the last one, I guess, of the 14 format, but you know what can we look forward to as Houstonians, with that game right around the corner? David: Well, it's a true celebration of college football, a week-long celebration. So you know, from a community perspective, you know the impact has already started. The Houston Love Teachers campaign that the Harris County, houston Sports Authority and the College Football Playoff local organizing committee has put together is has already generated millions of dollars in support for and recognition of teachers in our community, excuse me and that's an impact that will obviously pay dividends well beyond the game itself on January 8. When you look to event week itself, got four teams and four big brands that are hoping to descend upon Houston right after the New Year's. Chris: Yeah, yeah, so we've got what I mean. I think, any way you slice it, there's four or two teams that show up here are going to have big followings. David: Well, they are, and so you know what that means. It's not just about the 70,000 people that will fill up NRG Stadium. You know, again, the week long of activities, with free concerts every night during the weekend leading up fan fest down at Georgia Brown, which will have all kinds of interactive opportunities for fans to celebrate and enjoy the game of college football. You've got a number of initiatives around the industry itself that you know just further fuel Houston as a destination for business around the sport conferences and events and media opportunities, literally billions, if not trillions, of impressions showcasing our city. Chris: So you're gonna have the eyes of the world really on Houston for that kind of that weekend leading up and, I think, encourage the Houstonians right to get out and enjoy it yeah, no question, I mean it is. David: Houston is one of the best college football markets in the country the, the tax act, texas Bowl and many other events that we hosted. Our place and throughout the city. You've age rice, you know hcu tsu, prairie view. There's so much around college football that really Houston should be part of this destination, going forward on a consistent basis, and I think we'll show that as we bring everybody together here next month very good, yeah, david. Chris: So I think there's a lot to be excited about having the national title game be in our backyard, and I hope Houstonians will show up and take advantage of all the the events that are being planned yeah, it's gonna be an incredible week. David: We've earned the opportunity and I know, just like we did with Super Bowl a few years ago, with Final Four earlier this year, sonians love their sport. They will be out and enjoying another great celebration, and that's something that we should be excited about, and it's not the only one. You look down the road. We've got the world's biggest event coming just two years from now. Chris: As well, and that's the World Cup that's right. David: Yeah, fifa World Cup returns to Houston in 2020, or returns to Houston, comes to Houston in 2026. Houston, one of the venues in North America that was selected and you know just when you think about the opportunity to host five, six, seven, eight events in NRG Stadium with an average audience of a billion people and names like Messi and Neymar and Mbappe, who probably mean a lot to many people in this community but are treated as icons around the globe, and for Houston to have its name among the great markets of the world, at a truly global market which we know from a business perspective and from a from a population perspective. It is but to have that that verification on that type of stage is something that you know. As a community we also be very proud of and Chris Canetti in the World Cup office and Janice Burke and everybody over at NRG Park that ourselves included that helped to be part of making that a reality. We know we got a lot of work ahead to live up those expectations that's great. Chris: Well, david, I appreciate you, you know coming on and sharing some of these specifics. I want to ask you just a few more questions about you personally. What was your first job before days? You know the years before you were the intern of Houston Texas so I my first job I'm gonna go with. David: I've got a 1, 1a, all right. So my first job really was I worked at a Kroger in Kingwood as a checker or, sorry, as a bagger. But my my first quote real job I didn't have that one very long was I. I ended up being a server at Kingwood Country Club and the reason I say that was my first real job is that I worked in the service industry throughout my career. I mean, I still do today, obviously, but I worked in the service industry for 10 years, all the way through my time in Austin, going to school at UT, and I will tell you that nothing will teach you more about the world good and bad, than working in the service industry and I am so appreciative of the opportunities that I got to again. Start with something simple as that. But as a funny story, chris, I will say my crowning achievement as a server is I did serve as Don Johnson, the actor, don Johnson's waiter for the 10 cup rap party, because Tim Cup was hosting. That's right and so I do have that up by resume. Chris: So there you go see one of the benefits of living in Kingwood that's right. Yeah, one of the many I'll add okay, so since you work so much in, I guess, service hospitality, this will be easy for you. All right, you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Tex-mex all day long all right, and this one's gonna be hard for you to answer okay maybe not. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go? What? David: would you do? That is a great question. I don't think it's very. I don't think it's very hard for me at all. I am an avid skier and my family and I have been fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in Park City, utah, and I try and get the 30 days even now it's not possible to do in our work, but I love Park City probably more than any place else in this planet, and so I'd love to be able to go up my family for three days and just ski our behinds off got you. Chris: Well, that's great. That's a good one. David, thanks again for taking the time. Congratulations to you and the rest of the team back at Energy Park, the Texans LSSE, for all you do for Houston well. David: Thank you, chris, and we appreciate your support and involvement as well. Special Guest: David Fletcher.

David was the chief software architect and director of engineering at Stitch Fix. He's also the author of a number of books including Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails and most recently Ruby on Rails Background Jobs with Sidekiq. He talks about how he made decisions while working with a medium sized team (~200 developers) at Stitch Fix. The audio quality for the first 19 minutes is not great but the correct microphones turn on right after that. Recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. A few topics covered: Ruby's origins at Stitch Fix Thoughts on Go Choosing technology and cloud services Moving off heroku Building a platform team Where Ruby and Rails fit in today The role of books and how different people learn Large Language Model's effects on technical content Related Links David's Blog Mastodon Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today. I want to share another conversation from RubyConf San Diego. This time it's with David Copeland. He was a chief software architect and director of engineering at stitch fix. And at the start of the conversation, you're going to hear about why he decided to write the book, sustainable web development with Ruby on rails. Unfortunately, you're also going to notice the sound quality isn't too good. We had some technical difficulties. But once you hit the 20 minute mark of the recording, the mics are going to kick in. It's going to sound way better. So I hope you stick with it. Enjoy. Ruby at Stitch Fix [00:00:35] David: Stitch Fix was a Rails shop. I had done a lot of Rails and learned a lot of things that worked and didn't work, at least in that situation. And so I started writing them down and I was like, I should probably make this more than just a document that I keep, you know, privately on my computer. Uh, so that's, you know, kind of, kind of where the genesis of that came from and just tried to, write everything down that I thought what worked, what didn't work. Uh, if you're in a situation like me. Working on a product, with a medium sized, uh, team, then I think the lessons in there will be useful, at least some of them. Um, and I've been trying to keep it up over, over the years. I think the first version came out a couple years ago, so I've been trying to make sure it's always up to date with the latest stuff and, and Rails and based on my experience and all that. [00:01:20] Jeremy: So it's interesting that you mention, medium sized team because, during the, the keynote, just a few moments ago, Matz the creator of Ruby was talking about how like, Oh, Rails is really suitable for this, this one person team, right? Small, small team. And, uh, he was like, you're not Google. So like, don't worry about, right. Can you scale to that level? Yeah. Um, and, and I wonder like when you talk about medium size or medium scale, like what are, what are we talking? [00:01:49] David: I think probably under 200 developers, I would say. because when I left Stitch Fix, it was closing in on that number of developers. And so it becomes, you know, hard to... You can kind of know who everybody is, or at least the names sound familiar of everybody. But beyond that, it's just, it's just really hard. But a lot of it was like, I don't have experience at like a thousand developer company. I have no idea what that's like, but I definitely know that Rails can work for like... 200 ish people how you can make it work basically. yeah. [00:02:21] Jeremy: The decision to use Rails, I'm assuming that was made before you joined? [00:02:26] David: Yeah, the, um, the CTO of Stitch Fix, he had come in to clean up a mess made by contractors, as often happens. They had used Django, which is like the Python version of Rails. And he, the CTO, he was more familiar with Rails. So the first two developers he hired, also familiar with Rails. There wasn't a lot to maintain with the Django app, so they were like, let's just start fresh, fresh with Rails. yeah, but it's funny because a lot of the code in that Rails app was, like, transliterated from Python. So you could, it would, it looked like the strangest Ruby code in the world because it was basically, there was no test. So they were like, let's just write the Ruby version of this Python just so we know it works. but obviously that didn't, didn't last forever, so. [00:03:07] Jeremy: So, so what's an example of a, of a tell? Where you're looking at the code and you're like, oh, this is clearly, it came from Python. [00:03:15] David: You'd see like, very, very explicit, right? Like Python, there's a lot of like single line things. very like, this sounds like a dig, but it's very simple looking code. Like, like I don't know Python, but I was able to change this Django app. And I had to, I could look at it and you can figure out immediately how it works. Cause there's. Not much to it. There's nothing fancy. So, like, this, this Ruby code, there was nothing fancy. You'd be like, well, maybe they should have memoized that, or maybe they should have taken that into another class, or you could have done this with a hash or something like that. So there was, like, none of that. It was just, like, really basic, plain code like you would see in any beginning programming language kind of thing. Which is at least nice. You can understand it. but you probably wouldn't have written it that way at first in Ruby. Thoughts on Go [00:04:05] Jeremy: Yeah, that's, that's interesting because, uh, people sometimes talk about the Go programming language and how it looks, I don't know if simple is the right word, but it's something where you look at the code and even if you don't necessarily understand Go, it's relatively straightforward. Yeah. I wonder what your thoughts are on that being a strength versus that being, like, [00:04:25] David: Yeah, so at Stitch Fix at one point we had a pro, we were moving off of Heroku and we were going to, basically build a deployment platform using ECS on AWS. And so the deployment platform was a Rails app and we built a command line tool using Ruby. And it was fine, but it was a very complicated command line tool and it was very slow. And so one of the developers was like, I'm going to rewrite it in Go. I was like, ugh, you know, because I just was not a big fan. So he rewrote it in Go. It was a bazillion times faster. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to add, I'll add a feature to it. It was extremely easy. Like, it's just like what you said. I looked at it, like, I don't know anything about Go. I know what is happening here. I can copy and paste this and change things and make it work for what I want to do. And it did work. And it was, it was pretty easy. so there's that, I mean, aesthetically it's pretty ugly and it's, I, I. I can't really defend that as a real reason to not use it, but it is kind of gross. I did do Go, I did a small project in Go after Stitch Fix, and there's this vibe in Go about like, don't create abstractions. I don't know where I got that from, but every Go I look at, I'm like we should make an abstraction for this, but it's just not the vibe. They just don't like doing that. They like it all written out. And I see the value because you can look at the code and know what it does and you don't have to chase abstractions anywhere. But. I felt like I was copying and pasting a lot of, a lot of things. Um, so I don't know. I mean, the, the team at Stitch Fix that did this like command line app in go, they're the platform team. And so their job isn't to write like web apps all day, every day. There's kind of in and out of all kinds of things. They have to try to figure out something that they don't understand quickly to debug a problem. And so I can see the value of something like go if that's your job, right? You want to go in and see what the issue is. Figure it out and be done and you're not going to necessarily develop deep expertise and whatever that thing is that you're kind of jumping into. Day to day though, I don't know. I think it would make me kind of sad. (laughs) [00:06:18] Jeremy: So, so when you say it would make you kind of sad, I mean, what, what about it? Is it, I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot of copy and pasting, so maybe there's code duplication, but are there specific things where you're like, oh, I just don't? [00:06:31] David: Yeah, so I had done a lot of Java in my past life and it felt very much like that. Where like, like the Go library for making an HTTP call for like, I want to call some web service. It's got every feature you could ever want. Everything is tweakable. You can really, you can see why it's designed that way. To dial in some performance issue or solve some really esoteric thing. It's there. But the problem is if you just want to get an JSON, it's just like huge production. And I felt like that's all I really want to do and it's just not making it very easy. And it just felt very, very cumbersome. I think that having to declare types also is a little bit of a weird mindset because, I mean, I like to make types in Ruby, I like to make classes, but I also like to just use hashes and stuff to figure it out. And then maybe I'll make a class if I figure it out, but Go, you can't. You have to have a class, you have to have a type, you have to think all that ahead of time, and it just, I'm not used to working that way, so it felt, I mean, I guess I could get used to it, but I just didn't warm up to that sort of style of working, so it just felt like I was just kind of fighting with the vibe of the language, kind of. Yeah, [00:07:40] Jeremy: so it's more of the vibe or the feel where you're writing it and you're like this seems a little too... Explicit. I feel like I have to be too verbose. It just doesn't feel natural for me to write this. [00:07:53] David: Right, it's not optimized for what in my mind is the obvious case. And maybe that's not the obvious case for the people that write Go programs. But for me, like, I just want to like get this endpoint and get the JSON back as a map. Not any easier than any other case, right? Whereas like in Ruby, right? And you can, I think if you include net HTTP, you can just type get. And it will just return whatever that is. Like, that's amazing. It's optimized for what I think is a very common use case. So it makes me feel really productive. It makes me feel pretty good. And if that doesn't work out long term, I can always use something more complicated. But I'm not required to dig into the NetHttp library just to do what in my mind is something very simple. [00:08:37] Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's something I've noticed myself in working with Ruby. I mean, you have the standard library that's very... Comprehensive and the API surface is such that, like you said there, when you're trying to do common tasks, a lot of times they have a call you make and it kind of does the thing you expected or hoped for. [00:08:56] David: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of, I mean, it's that whole optimized for programmer happiness thing. Like it does. That is the vibe of Ruby and it seems like that is still the way things are. And, you know, I, I suppose if I had a different mindset, I mean, because I work with developers who did not like using Ruby or Rails. They loved using Go or Java. And I, I guess there's probably some psychological analysis we could do about their background and history and mindset that makes that make sense. But, to me, I don't know. It's, it's nice when it's pleasant. And Ruby seems pleasant. (laughs) Choosing Technology [00:09:27] Jeremy: as a... Software Architect, or as a CTO, when, when you're choosing technology, what are some of the things you look at in terms of, you know? [00:09:38] David: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, it's a weird criteria, but I think what is something that the team is capable of executing with? Because, like, most, right, most programming languages all kind of do the same thing. Like, you can kind of get most stuff done in most common popular programming languages. So, it's probably not... It's not true that if you pick the wrong language, you can't build the app. Like, that's probably not really the case. At least for like a web app or something. so it's more like, what is the team that's here to do it? What are they comfortable and capable of doing? I worked on a project with... It was a mix of like junior engineers who knew JavaScript, and then some senior engineers from Google. And for whatever reason someone had chosen a Rails app and none of them were comfortable or really yet competent with doing Ruby on Rails and they just all hated it and like it didn't work very well. Um, and so even though, yes, Rails is a good choice for doing stuff for that team at that moment. Not a good choice. Right. So I think you have to go in and like, what, what are we going to be able to execute on so that when the business wants us to do something, we just do it. And we don't complain and we don't say, Oh, well we can't because this technology that we chose, blah, blah, blah. Like you don't ever want to say that if possible. So I think that's. That's kind of the, the top thing. I think second would be how widely supported is it? Like you don't want to be the cutting edge user that's finding all the bugs in something really. Like you want to use something that's stable. Postgres, MySQL, like those work, those are fine. The bugs have been sorted out for most common use cases. Some super fancy edge database, I don't know if I'd want to be doing, doing that you know? Choosing cloud services [00:11:15] Jeremy: How do you feel about the cloud specific services and databases? Like are you comfortable saying like, oh, I'm going to use... Google Cloud, BigQuery. Yeah. [00:11:27] David: That sort of thing. I think it would kind of fall under the same criteria that I was just, just saying like, so with AWS it's interesting 'cause when we moved from Heroku to AWS by EC2 RDS, their database thing, uh, S3, those have been around for years, probably those are gonna work, but they always introduce new things. Like we, we use RabbitMQ and AWS came out with. Some, I forget what it was, it was a queuing service similar to Rabbit. We were like, Oh, maybe we should switch to that. But it was clear that they weren't really ready to support it. So. Yeah, so we didn't, we didn't switch to that. So I, you gotta try to read the tea leaves of the provider to see are they committed to, to supporting this thing or is this there to get some enterprise client to move into the cloud. And then the idea is to move off of that transitional thing into what they do support. And it's hard to get a clear answer from them too. So it takes a little bit of research to figure out, Are they going to support this or not? Because that's what you don't want. To move everything into some very proprietary cloud system and have them sunset it and say, Oh yeah, now you've got to switch again. Uh, that kind of sucks. So, it's a little trickier. [00:12:41] Jeremy: And what kind of questions or research do you do? Is it purely a function of this thing has existed for X number of years so I feel okay? [00:12:52] David: I mean, it's kind of similar to looking at like some gem you're going to add to your project, right? So you'll, you'll look at how often does it change? Is it being updated? Uh, what is the documentation? Does it look like someone really cared about the documentation? Does the documentation look updated? Are there issues with it that are being addressed or, or not? Um, so those are good signals. I think, talking to other practitioners too can be good. Like if you've got someone who's experienced. You can say, hey, do you know anybody back channeling through, like, everybody knows somebody that works at AWS, you can probably try to get something there. at Stitch Fix, we had an enterprise support contract, and so your account manager will sometimes give you good information if you ask. Again, it's a, they're not going to come out and say, don't use this product that we have, but they might communicate that in a subtle way. So you have to triangulate from all these sources to try to. to try to figure out what, what you want to do. [00:13:50] Jeremy: Yeah, it kind of makes me wish that there was a, a site like, maybe not quite like, can I use, right? Can I use, you can see like, oh, can I use this in my browser? Is there, uh, like an AWS or a Google Cloud? Can I trust this? Can I trust this? Yeah. Is this, is this solid or not? [00:14:04] David: Right, totally. It's like, there's that, that site where you, it has all the Apple products and it says whether or not you should buy it because one may or may not be coming out or they may be getting rid of it. Like, yeah, that would... For cloud services, that would be, that would be nice. [00:14:16] Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. That's like the Mac Buyer's Guide. And then we, we need the, uh, the technology. Yeah. Maybe not buyers. Cloud Provider Buyer's Guide, yeah. I guess we are buyers. [00:14:25] David: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. [00:14:27] Jeremy: it's interesting that you, you mentioned how you want to see that, okay, this thing is mature. I think it's going to stick around because, I, interviewed, someone who worked on, I believe it was the CloudWatch team. Okay. Daniel Vassalo, yeah. so he left AWS, uh, after I think about 10 years, and then he wrote a book called, uh, The Good Parts of AWS. Oh! And, if you read his book, most of the services he says to use are the ones that are, like, old. Yeah. He's, he's basically saying, like, S3, you know you're good. Yeah. Right? but then all these, if you look at the AWS webpage, they have who knows, I don't know how many hundreds of services. Yeah. He's, he's kind of like I worked there and I would not use, you know, all these new services. 'cause I myself, I don't trust [00:15:14] David: it yet. Right. And so, and they're working there? Yeah, they're working there. Yeah. No. One of the VPs at Stitch Fix had worked on Google Cloud and so when we were doing this transition from Heroku, he was like, we are not using Google Cloud. I was like, really? He's like AWS is far ahead of the game. Do not use Google Cloud. I was like, all right, I don't need any more info. You work there. You said don't. I'm gonna believe you. So [00:15:36] Jeremy: what, what was his did he have like a core point? [00:15:39] David: Um, so he never really had anything bad to say about Google per se. Like I think he enjoyed his time there and I think he thought highly of who he worked with and what he worked on and that sort of thing. But his, where he was coming from was like AWS was so far ahead. of Google on anything that we would use, he was like, there's, there's really no advantage to, to doing it. AWS is a known quantity, right? it's probably still the case. It's like, you know, you've heard the nobody ever got fired for using IBM or using Microsoft or whatever the thing is. Like, I think that's, that was kind of the vibe. And he was like, moving all of our infrastructure right before we're going to go public. This is a serious business. We should just use something that we know will work. And he was like, I know this will work. I'm not confident about. Google, uh, for our use case. So we shouldn't, we shouldn't risk it. So I was like, okay, I trust you because I didn't know anything about any of that stuff at the time. I knew Heroku and that was it. So, yeah. [00:16:34] Jeremy: I don't know if it's good or bad, but like you said, AWS seems to be the default choice. Yeah. And I mean, there's people who use Azure. I assume it's mostly primarily Microsoft. Yeah. And then there's Google Cloud. It's not really clear why you would pick it, unless there was a specific service or something that only they had. [00:16:55] David: Yeah, yeah. Or you're invested in Google, you know, you want to keep everything there. I mean, I don't know. I haven't really been at that level to make that kind of decision, and I would probably choose AWS for the reasons discussed, but, yeah. Moving off Heroku [00:17:10] Jeremy: And then, so at Stitch Fix, you said you moved off of Heroku [00:17:16] David: yeah. Yeah, so we were heavy into Heroku. I think that we were told that at one point we had the biggest Heroku Postgres database on their platform. Not a good place to be, right? You never want to be the biggest customer person, usually. but the problem we were facing was essentially we were going to go public. And to do that, you're under all the scrutiny. about many things, including the IT systems and the security around there. So, like, by default, a Postgres, a Heroku Postgres database is, like, on the internet. It's only secured by the password. all their services are on the internet. So, not, not ideal. they were developing their private cloud service at that time. And so that would have given us, in theory, on paper, it would have solved all of our problems. And we liked Heroku and we liked the developer experience. It was great. but... Heroku private spaces, it was still early. There's a lot of limitations that when they explained why those limitations, they were reasonable. And if we had. started from scratch on Heroku Private Spaces. It probably would have worked great, but we hadn't. So we just couldn't make it work. So we were like, okay, we're going to have to move to AWS so that everything can be basically off the internet. Like our public website needs to be on the internet and that's kind of it. So we need to, so that's basically was the, was the impetus for that. but it's too bad because I love Heroku. It was great. I mean, they were, they were a great partner. They were great. I think if Stitch Fix had started life a year later, Private Spaces. Now it's, it's, it's way different than it was then. Cause it's been, it's a mature product now, so we could have easily done that, but you know, the timing didn't work out, unfortunately. [00:18:50] Jeremy: And that was a compliance thing to, [00:18:53] David: Yeah. And compliance is weird cause they don't tell you what to do, but they give you some parameters that you need to meet. And so one of them is like how you control access. So, so going public, the compliance is around the financial data and. Ensuring that the financial data is accurate. So a lot of the systems at Stichfix were storing the financial data. We, you know, the warehouse management system was custom made. Uh, all the credit card processing was all done, like it was all in some databases that we had running in Heroku. And so those needed to be subject to stricter security than we could achieve with just a single password that we just had to remember to rotate when someone like left the team. So that was, you know, the kind of, the kind of impetus for, for all of that. [00:19:35] Jeremy: when you were using Heroku, Salesforce would have already owned it then. Did you, did you get any sense that you weren't really sure about the future of the platform while you're on it or, [00:19:45] David: At that time, no, it seemed like they were still innovating. So like, Heroku has a Redis product now. They didn't at the time we wish that they did. They told us they're working on it, but it wasn't ready. We didn't like using the third parties. Kafka was not a thing. We very much were interested in that. We would have totally used it if it was there. So they were still. Like doing bigger innovations then, then it seems like they are now. I don't know. It's weird. Like they're still there. They still make money, I assume for Salesforce. So it doesn't feel like they're going away, but they're not innovating at the pace that they were kind of back in the day. [00:20:20] Jeremy: it used to feel like when somebody's asking, I want to host a Rails app. Then you would say like, well, use Heroku because it's basically the easiest to get started. It's a known quantity and it's, it's expensive, but, it seemed for, for most people, it was worth it. and then now if I talk to people, it's like. Not what people suggest anymore. [00:20:40] David: Yeah, because there's, there's actual competitors. It's crazy to me that there was no competitors for years, and now there's like, Render and Fly. io seem to be the two popular alternatives. Um, I doubt they're any cheaper, honestly, but... You get a sense, right, that they're still innovating, still building those platforms, and they can build with, you know, all of the knowledge of what has come before them, and do things differently that might, that might help. So, I still use Heroku for personal things just because I know it, and I, you know, sometimes you don't feel like learning a new thing when you just want to get something done, but, yeah, I, I don't know if we were starting again, I don't know, maybe I'd look into those things. They, they seem like they're getting pretty mature and. Heroku's resting on its laurels, still. [00:21:26] Jeremy: I guess I never quite the mindset, right? Where you You have a platform that's doing really well and people really like it and you acquire it and then it just It seems like you would want to keep it rolling, right? (laughs) [00:21:38] David: Yeah, it's, it is wild, I mean, I guess... Why did you, what was Salesforce thinking they were going to get? Uh, who knows maybe the person at Salesforce that really wanted to purchase it isn't there. And so no one at Salesforce cares about it. I mean, there's all these weird company politics that like, who knows what's going on and you could speculate. all day. What's interesting is like, there's definitely some people in the Ruby community who work there and still are working there. And that's like a little bit of a canary for me. I'm like, all right, well, if that person's still working there, that person seems like they're on the level and, and, and, and seems pretty good. They're still working there. It, it's gotta be still a cool place to be or still doing something, something good. But, yeah, I don't know. I would, I would love to know what was going on in all the Salesforce meetings about acquiring that, how to manage it. What are their plans for it? I would love to know that stuff. [00:22:29] Jeremy: maybe you had some experience with this at Stitch Fix But I've heard with Heroku some of their support staff at least in the past they would, to some extent, actually help you troubleshoot, like, what's going on with your app. Like, if your app is, like, using a whole bunch of memory, and you're out of memory, um, they would actually kind of look into that, for you, which is interesting, because it's like, that's almost like a services thing than it is just a platform. [00:22:50] David: Yeah. I mean, they, their support, you would get, you would get escalated to like an engineer sometimes, like who worked on that stuff and they would help figure out what the problem was. Like you got the sense that everybody there really wanted the platform to be good and that they were all sort of motivated to make sure that everybody. You know, did well and used the platform. And they also were good at, like a thing that trips everybody up about Heroku is that your app restarts every day. And if you don't know anything about anything, you might think that is stupid. Why, why would I want that? That's annoying. And I definitely went through that and I complained to them a lot. And I'm like, if you only could not restart. And they very patiently and politely explained to me why that it needed to do that, they weren't going to remove that, and how to think about my app given that reality, right? Which is great because like, what company does that, right? From the engineers that are working on it, like No, nobody does that. So, yeah, no, I haven't escalated anything to support at Heroku in quite some time, so I don't know if it's still like that. I hope it is, but I'm not really, not really sure. Building a platform team [00:23:55] Jeremy: Yeah, that, uh, that reminds me a little bit of, I think it's Rackspace? There's, there's, like, another hosting provider that was pretty popular before, and they... Used to be famous for that type of support, where like your, your app's having issues and somebody's actually, uh, SSHing into your box and trying to figure out like, okay, what's going on? which if, if that's happening, then I, I can totally see where the, the price is justified. But if the support is kind of like dropping off to where it's just, they don't do that kind of thing, then yeah, I can see why it's not so much of a, yeah, [00:24:27] David: We used to think of Heroku as like they were the platform team before we had our own platform team and they, they acted like it, which was great. [00:24:35] Jeremy: Yeah, I don't have, um, experience with, render, but I, I, I did, talk to someone from there, and it does seem like they're, they're trying to fill that role, um, so, yeah, hopefully, they and, and other companies, I guess like Vercel and things like that, um, they're, they're all trying to fill that space, [00:24:55] David: Yeah, cause, cause building our own internal platform, I mean it was the right thing to do, but it's, it's a, you can't just, you have to have a team on it, it's complicated, getting all the stuff in AWS to work the way you want it to work, to have it be kind of like Heroku, like it's not trivial. if I'm a one person company, I don't want to be messing around with that particularly. I want to just have it, you know, push it up and have it go and I'm willing to pay for that. So it seems logical that there would be competitors in that space. I'm glad there are. Hopefully that'll light a fire under, under everybody. [00:25:26] Jeremy: so in your case, it sounds like you moved to having your own platform team and stuff like that, uh, partly because of the compliance thing where you're like, we need our, we need to be isolated from the internet. We're going to go to AWS. If you didn't have that requirement, do you still think like that would have been the time to, to have your own platform team and manage that all yourself? [00:25:46] David: I don't know. We, we were thinking an issue that we were running into when we got bigger, um, was that, I mean, Heroku, it, It's obviously not as flexible as AWS, but it is still very flexible. And so we had a lot of internal documentation about this is how you use Heroku to do X, Y, and Z. This is how you set up a Stitch Fix app for Heroku. Like there was just the way that we wanted it to be used to sort of. Just make it all manageable. And so we were considering having a team spun up to sort of add some tooling around that to sort of make that a little bit easier for everybody. So I think there may have been something around there. I don't know if it would have been called a platform team. Maybe we call, we thought about calling it like developer happiness or because you got developer experience or something. We, we probably would have had something there, but. I do wonder how easy it would have been to fund that team with developers if we hadn't had these sort of business constraints around there. yeah, um, I don't know. You get to a certain size, you need some kind of manageability and consistency no matter what you're using underneath. So you've got to have, somebody has to own it to make sure that it's, that it's happening. [00:26:50] Jeremy: So even at your, your architect level, you still think it would have been a challenge to, to. Come to the executive team and go like, I need funding to build this team. [00:27:00] David: You know, certainly it's a challenge because everybody, you know, right? Nobody wants to put developers in anything, right? There are, there are a commodity and I mean, that is kind of the job of like, you know, the staff engineer or the architect at a company is you don't have, you don't have the power to put anybody on anything you, you have the power to Schedule a meeting with a VP or the CTO and they will listen to you. And that's basically, you've got to use that power to convince them of what you want done. And they're all reasonable people, but they're balancing 20 other priorities. So it would, I would have had to, it would have been a harder case to make that, Hey, I want to take three engineers. And have them write tooling to make Heroku easier to use. What? Heroku is not easy to use. Why aren't, you know, so you really, I would, it would be a little bit more of a stretch to walk them through it. I think a case could be made, but, definitely would take some more, more convincing than, than what was needed in our case. [00:27:53] Jeremy: Yeah. And I guess if you're able to contrast that with, you were saying, Oh, I need three people to help me make Heroku easier. Your actual platform team on AWS, I imagine was much larger, right? [00:28:03] David: Initially it was, there was, it was three people did the initial move over. And so by the time we went public, we'd been on this new system for, I don't know, six to nine months. I can't remember exactly. And so at that time the platform team was four or five people, and I, I mean, so percentage wise, right, the engineering team was maybe almost 200, 150, 200. So percentage wise, maybe a little small, I don't know. but it kind of gets back to the power of like the rails and the one person framework. Like everything we did was very much the same And so the Rails app that managed the deployment was very simple. The, the command line app, even the Go one with all of its verbosity was very, very simple. so it was pretty easy for that small team to manage. but, Yeah, so it was sort of like for redundancy, we probably needed more than three or four people because you know, somebody goes out sick or takes a vacation. That's a significant part of the team. But in terms of like just managing the complexity and building it and maintaining it, like it worked pretty well with, you know, four or five people. Where Rails fits in vs other technology [00:29:09] Jeremy: So during the Keynote today, they were talking about how companies like GitHub and Shopify and so on, they're, they're using Rails and they're, they're successful and they're fairly large. but I think the thing that was sort of unsaid was the fact that. These companies, while they use Rails, they use a lot of other, technology as well. And, and, and kind of increasing amounts as well. So, I wonder from your perspective, either from your experience at StitchFix or maybe going forward, what is the role that, that Ruby and Rails plays? Like, where does it make sense for that to be used versus like, Okay, we need to go and build something in Java or, you know, or Go, that sort of thing? [00:29:51] David: right. I mean, I think for like your standard database backed web app, it's obviously great. especially if your sort of mindset bought into server side rendering, it's going to be great at that. so like internal tools, like the customer service dashboard or... You know, something for like somebody who works at a company to use. Like, it's really great because you can go super fast. You're not going to be under a lot of performance constraints. So you kind of don't even have to think about it. Don't even have to solve it. You can, but you don't have to, where it wouldn't work, I guess, you know, if you have really strict performance. Requirements, you know, like a, a Go version of some API server is going to use like percentages of what, of what Rails would use. If that's meaningful, if what you're spending on memory or compute is, is meaningful, then, then yeah. That, that becomes worthy of consideration. I guess if you're, you know, if you're making a mobile app, you probably need to make a mobile app and use those platforms. I mean, I guess you can wrap a Rails app sort of, but you're still making, you still need to make a mobile app, that does something. yeah. And then, you know, interestingly, the data science part of Stitch Fix was not part of the engineering team. They were kind of a separate org. I think Ruby and Rails was probably the only thing they didn't use over there. Like all the ML stuff, everything is either Java or Scala or Python. They use all that stuff. And so, yeah, if you want to do AI and ML with Ruby, you, it's, it's hard cause there's just not a lot there. You really probably should use Python. It'll make your life easier. so yeah, those would be some of the considerations, I guess. [00:31:31] Jeremy: Yeah, so I guess in the case of, ML, Python, certainly, just because of the, the ecosystem, for maybe making a command line application, maybe Go, um, Go or Rust, perhaps, [00:31:44] David: Right. Cause you just get a single binary. Like the problem, I mean, I wrote this book on Ruby command line apps and the biggest problem is like, how do I get the Ruby VM to be anywhere so that it can then run my like awesome scripts? Like that's kind of a huge pain. (laughs) So [00:31:59] Jeremy: and then you said, like, if it's Very performance sensitive, which I am kind of curious in, in your experience with the companies you've worked at, when you're taking on a project like that, do you know up front where you're like, Oh, the CPU and memory usage is going to be a problem, or is it's like you build it and you're like, Oh, this isn't working. So now I know. [00:32:18] David: yeah, I mean, I, I don't have a ton of great experience there at Stitch Fix. The biggest expense the company had was the inventory. So like the, the cost of AWS was just de minimis compared to all that. So nobody ever came and said, Hey, you've got to like really save costs on, on that stuff. Cause it just didn't really matter. at the, the mental health startup I was at, it was too early. But again, the labor costs were just far, far exceeded the amount of money I was spending on, on, um, you know, compute and infrastructure and stuff like that. So, Not knowing anything, I would probably just sort of wait and see if it's a problem. But I suppose you always take into account, like, what am I actually building? And like, what does this business have to scale to, to make it worthwhile? And therefore you can kind of do a little bit of planning ahead there. But, I dunno, I think it would kind of have to depend. [00:33:07] Jeremy: There's a sort of, I guess you could call it a meme, where people say like, Oh, it's, it's not, it's not Rails that's slow, it's the, the database that's slow. And, uh, I wonder, is that, is that accurate in your experience, or, [00:33:20] David: I mean, most of the stuff that we had that was slow was the database, because like, it's really easy to write a crappy query in Rails if you're not, if you're not careful, and then it's really easy to design a database that doesn't have any indexes if you're not careful. Like, you, you kind of need to know that, But of course, those are easy to fix too, because you just add the index, especially if it's before the database gets too big where we're adding indexes is problematic. But, I think those are just easy performance mistakes to make. Uh, especially with Rails because you're not, I mean, a lot of the Rails developers at Citrix did not know SQL at all. I mean, they had to learn it eventually, but they didn't know it at all. So they're not even knowing that what they're writing could possibly be problematic. It's just, you're writing it the Rails way and it just kind of works. And at a small scale, it does. And it doesn't matter until, until one day it does. [00:34:06] Jeremy: And then in, in the context of, let's say, using ActiveRecord and instantiating the objects, or, uh, the time it takes to render templates, that kinds of things, to, at least in your experience, that wasn't such of an issue. [00:34:20] David: No, and it was always, I mean, whenever we looked at why something was slow, it was always the database and like, you know, you're iterating over some active records and then, and then, you know, you're going into there and you're just following this object graph. I've got a lot of the, a lot of the software at Stitch Fix was like internal stuff and it was visualizing complicated data out of the database. And so if you didn't think about it, you would just start dereferencing and following those relationships and you have this just massive view and like the HTML is fine. It's just that to render this div, you're. Digging into some active record super deep. and so, you know, that was usually the, the, the problems that we would see and they're usually easy enough to fix by making an index or. Sometimes you do some caching or something like that. and that solved most of the, most of the issues [00:35:09] Jeremy: The different ways people learn [00:35:09] Jeremy: so you're also the author of the book, Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails. And when you talk to people about like how they learn things, a lot of them are going on YouTube, they're going on, uh, you know, looking for blogs and things like that. And so as an author, what do you think the role is of, of books now? Yeah, [00:35:29] David: I have thought about this a lot, because I, when I first got started, I'm pretty old, so books were all you had, really. Um, so they seem very normal and natural to me, but... does someone want to sit down and read a 400 page technical book? I don't know. so Dave Thomas who runs Pragmatic Bookshelf, he was on a podcast and was asked the same question and basically his answer, which is my answer, is like a long form book is where you can really lay out your thinking, really clarify what you mean, really take the time to develop sometimes nuanced, examples or nuanced takes on something that are Pretty hard to do in a short form video or in a blog post. Because the expectation is, you know, someone sends you an hour long YouTube video, you're probably not going to watch that. Two minute YouTube video is sure, but you can't, you can't get into so much, kind of nuanced detail. And so I thought that was, was right. And that was kind of my motivation for writing. I've got some thoughts. They're too detailed. It's, it's too much set up for a blog post. There's too much of a nuanced element to like, really get across. So I need to like, write more. And that means that someone's going to have to read more to kind of get to it. But hopefully it'll be, it'll be valuable. one of the sessions that we're doing later today is Ruby content creators, where it's going to be me and Noel Rappin and Dave Thomas representing the old school dudes that write books and probably a bunch of other people that do, you know, podcasts videos. It'd be interesting to see, I really want to know how do people learn stuff? Because if no one reads books to learn things, then there's not a lot of point in doing it. But if there is value, then, you know. It should be good and should be accessible to people. So, that's why I do it. But I definitely recognize maybe I'm too old and, uh, I'm not hip with the kids or, or whatever, whatever the case is. I don't know. [00:37:20] Jeremy: it's tricky because, I think it depends on where you are in the process of learning that thing. Because, let's say, you know a fair amount about the technology already. And you look at a book, in a lot of cases it's, it's sort of like taking you from nothing to something. And so you're like, well, maybe half of this isn't relevant to me, but then if I don't read it, then I'm probably missing a lot still. And so you're in this weird in be in between zone. Another thing is that a lot of times when people are trying to learn something, they have a specific problem. And, um, I guess with, with books, it's, you kind of don't know for sure if the thing you're looking for is going to be in the book. [00:38:13] David: I mean, so my, so my book, I would not say as a beginner, it's not a book to learn how to do Rails. It's like you already kind of know Rails and you want to like learn some comprehensive practices. That's what my book is for. And so sometimes people will ask me, I don't know Rails, should I get your book? And I'm like, no, you should not. but then you have the opposite thing where like the agile web development with Rails is like the beginner version. And some people are like, Oh, it's being updated for Rails 7. Should I get it? I'm like, probably not because How to go from zero to rails hasn't changed a lot in years. There's not that much that's going to be new. but, how do you know that, right? Hopefully the Table of Contents tells you. I mean, the first book I wrote with Pragmatic, they basically were like, The Table of Contents is the only thing the reader, potential reader is going to have to have any idea what's in the book. So, You need to write the table of contents with that in mind, which may not be how you'd write the subsections of a book, but since you know that it's going to serve these dual purposes of organizing the book, but also being promotional material that people can read, you've got to keep that in mind, because otherwise, how does anybody, like you said, how does anybody know what's, what's going to be in there? And they're not cheap, I mean, these books are 50 bucks sometimes, and That's a lot of money for people in the U. S. People outside the U. S. That's a ton of money. So you want to make sure that they know what they're getting and don't feel ripped off. [00:39:33] Jeremy: Yeah, I think the other challenge is, at least what I've heard, is that... When people see a video course, for whatever reason, they, they set, like, a higher value to it. They go, like, oh, this video course is, 200 dollars and it's, like, seems like a lot of money, but for some people it's, like, okay, I can do that. But then if you say, like, oh, this, this book I've been researching for five years, uh, I want to sell it for a hundred bucks, people are going to be, like no. No way., [00:40:00] David: Yeah. Right. A hundred bucks for a book. There's no way. That's a, that's a lot. Yeah. I mean, producing video, I've thought about doing video content, but it seems so labor intensive. Um, and it's kind of like, It's sort of like a performance. Like I was mentioning before we started that I used to play in bands and like, there's a lot to go into making an even mediocre performance. And so I feel like, you know, video content is the same way. So I get that it like, it does cost more to produce, but, are you getting more information out of it? I, that, I don't know, like maybe not, but who knows? I mean, people learn things in different ways. So, [00:40:35] Jeremy: It's just like this perception thing, I think. And, uh, I'm not sure why that is. Um, [00:40:40] David: Yeah, maybe it's newer, right? Maybe books feel older so they're easier to make and video seems newer. I mean, I don't know. I would love to talk to engineers who are like... young out of college, a few years into their career to see what their perception of this stuff is. Cause I mean, there was no, I mean, like I said, I read books cause that's all there was. There was no, no videos. You, you go to a conference and you read a book and that was, that was all you had. so I get it. It seems a whole video. It's fancier. It's newer. yeah, I don't know. I would love to hear a wide variety of takes on it to see what's actually the, the future, you know? [00:41:15] Jeremy: sure, yeah. I mean, I think it probably can't just be one or the other, right? Like, I think there are... Benefits of each way. Like, if you have the book, you can read it at your own pace without having to, like, scroll through the video, and you can easily copy and paste the, the code segments, [00:41:35] David: Search it. Go back and forth. [00:41:36] Jeremy: yeah, search it. So, I think there's a place for it, but yeah, I think it would be very interesting, like you said, to, to see, like, how are people learning, [00:41:45] David: Right. Right. Yeah. Well, it's the same with blogs and podcasts. Like I, a lot of podcasters I think used to be bloggers and they realized that like they can get out what they need by doing a podcast. And it's way easier because it's more conversational. You don't have to do a bunch of research. You don't have to do a bunch of editing. As long as you're semi coherent, you can just have a conversation with somebody and sort of get at some sort of thing that you want to talk about or have an opinion about. And. So you, you, you see a lot more podcasts and a lot less blogs out there because of that. So it's, that's kind of like the creators I think are kind of driving that a little bit. yeah. So I don't know. [00:42:22] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I can, I can say for myself, the thing about podcasts is that it's something that I can listen to while I'm doing something else. And so you sort of passively can hopefully pick something up out of that conversation, but... Like, I think it's maybe not so good at the details, right? Like, if you're talking code, you can talk about it over voice, but can you really visualize it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you sit down and you try to implement something somebody talked about, you're gonna be like, I don't know what's happening. [00:42:51] David: Yeah. [00:42:52] Jeremy: So, uh, so, so I think there's like these, these different roles I think almost for so like maybe you know the podcast is for you to Maybe get some ideas or get some familiarity with a thing and then when you're ready to go deeper You can go look at a blog post or read a book I think video kind of straddles those two where sometimes video is good if you want to just see, the general concept of a thing, and have somebody explain it to you, maybe do some visuals. that's really good. but then it can also be kind of detailed, where, especially like the people who stream their process, right, you can see them, Oh, let's, let's build this thing together. You can ask me questions, you can see how I think. I think that can be really powerful. at the same time, like you said, it can be hard to say, like, you know, I look at some of the streams and it's like, oh, this is a three hour stream and like, well, I mean, I'm interested. I'm interested, but yeah, it's hard enough for me to sit through a, uh, a three hour movie, [00:43:52] David: Well, then that, and that gets into like, I mean, we're, you know, we're at a conference and they, they're doing something a little, like, there are conference talks at this conference, but there's also like. sort of less defined activities that aren't a conference talk. And I think that could be a reaction to some of this too. It's like I could watch a conference talk on, on video. How different is that going to be than being there in person? maybe it's not that different. Maybe, maybe I don't need to like travel across the country to go. Do something that I could see on video. So there's gotta be something here that, that, that meets that need that I can't meet any other way. So it's all these different, like, I would like to think that's how it is, right? All this media all is a part to play and it's all going to kind of continue and thrive and it's not going to be like, Oh, remember books? Like maybe, but hopefully not. Hopefully it's like, like what you're saying. Like it's all kind of serving different purposes that all kind of work together. Yeah. [00:44:43] Jeremy: I hope that's the case, because, um, I don't want to have to scroll through too many videos. [00:44:48] David: Yeah. The video's not for me. Large Language Models [00:44:50] Jeremy: I, I like, I actually do find it helpful, like, like I said, for the high level thing, or just to see someone's thought process, but it's like, if you want to know a thing, and you have a short amount of time, maybe not the best, um, of course, now you have all the large language model stuff where you like, you feed the video in like, Hey, tell, tell, tell me, uh, what this video is about and give me the code snippets and all that stuff. I don't know how well it works, but it seems [00:45:14] David: It's gotta get better. Cause you go to a support site and they're like, here's how to fix your problem, and it's a video. And I'm like, can you just tell me? But I'd never thought about asking the AI to just look at the video and tell me. So yeah, it's not bad. [00:45:25] Jeremy: I think, that's probably where we're going. So it's, uh, it's a little weird to think about, but, [00:45:29] David: yeah, yeah. I was just updating, uh, you know, like I said, I try to keep the book updated when new versions of Rails come out, so I'm getting ready to update it for Rails 7. 1 and in Amazon's, Kindle Direct Publishing as their sort of backend for where you, you know, publish like a Kindle book and stuff, and so they added a new question, was AI used in the production of this thing or not? And if you answer yes, they want you to say how much, And I don't know what they're gonna do with that exactly, but I thought it was pretty interesting, cause I would be very disappointed to pay 50 for a book that the AI wrote, right? So it's good that they're asking that? Yeah. [00:46:02] Jeremy: I think the problem Amazon is facing is where people wholesale have the AI write the book, and the person either doesn't review it at all, or maybe looks at a little, a little bit. And, I mean, the, the large language model stuff is very impressive, but If you have it generate a technical book for you, it's not going to be good. [00:46:22] David: yeah. And I guess, cause cause like Amazon, I mean, think about like Amazon scale, like they're not looking at the book at all. Like I, I can go click a button and have my book available and no person's going to look at it. they might scan it or something maybe with looking for bad words. I don't know, but there's no curation process there. So I could, yeah. I could see where they could have that, that kind of problem. And like you as the, as the buyer, you don't necessarily, if you want to book on something really esoteric, there are a lot of topics I wish there was a book on that there isn't. And as someone generally want to put it on Amazon, I could see a lot of people buying it, not realizing what they're getting and feeling ripped off when it was not good. [00:47:00] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, if it's an issue with the, the technical stuff. It probably is. But I, I know they've definitely had problems where, fiction, they have people just generating hundreds, thousands of books, submitting them all, just flooding it. [00:47:13] David: Seeing what happens. [00:47:14] Jeremy: And, um, I think that's probably... That's probably the main reason why they ask you, cause they want you to say like, uh, yeah, you said it wasn't. And so now we can remove your book. [00:47:24] David: right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:26] Jeremy: I mean, it's, it's not quite the same, but it's similar to, I don't know what Stack Overflow's policy is now, but, when the large language model stuff started getting big, they had a lot of people answering the questions that were just. Pasting the question into the model [00:47:41] David: Which because they got it from [00:47:42] Jeremy: and then [00:47:43] David: The Got model got it from Stack Overflow. [00:47:45] Jeremy: and then pasting the answer into Stack Overflow and the person is not checking it. Right. So it's like, could be right, could not be right. Um, cause, cause to me, it's like, if, if you generate it, if you generate the answer and the answer is right, and you checked it, I'm okay with that. [00:48:00] David: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:01] Jeremy: but if you're just like, I, I need some karma, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer these questions with, with this bot, I mean, then maybe [00:48:08] David: I could have done that. You're not adding anything. Yeah, yeah. [00:48:11] Jeremy: it's gonna be a weird, weird world, I think. [00:48:12] David: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. [00:48:15] Jeremy: that's a, a good place to end it on, but is there anything else you want to mention, [00:48:19] David: No, I think we covered it all just yeah, you could find me online. I'm Davetron5000 on Ruby. social Mastodon, I occasionally post on Twitter, but not that much anymore. So Mastodon's a place to go. [00:48:31] Jeremy: David, thank you so much [00:48:32] David: All right. Well, thanks for having me.

“Don't let anything or anyone keep you from fulfilling the mission that you came here to fulfill. There's a way to do that and it might be through using the power of plant medicine to get you there.” - Declan OcegueraControversial opinion: psychedelics can unlock new dimensions of self-discovery and help you embark on a transformative journey like no other. In this Webdelics episode, guests Declan Oceguera, Joe Apfelbaum, David Morin, and Katherine Bell, along with host Scott Mason, delve into the truth about psychedelics and plant medicine, challenging myths and reshaping the narrative. They share their experiences with how psychedelics propelled them towards spiritual awakening, personal growth, and the dismantling of the ego and explore the power of guided journeys, the importance of responsible usage, and the potential of psychedelics to heal deep-seated traumas. Katherine Bell is a dream coach. With a background in astrophysics, and a fascination with the inner world and dreams, she brings a unique perspective to the discussion about the transformative power of psychedelics. Declan Oceguera (called Rich in the audio version of this episode) is a media consultant and video visibility coach. He helps individuals share their messages with the world using video. David Morin is a performance coach and advocate for ketamine treatment, particularly for treatment-resistant depression. As the CEO of a digital marketing agency, Joe Apfelbaum understands the power of communication and breaking stigmas. He recognizes the immense benefits that psychedelics can offer.Highlights from the conversation:While it's important to consider the insights of scientists and experts, what truly matters are the human stories that reveal the profound impact of psychedelics. As Scott puts it, "Human stories are the ones that matter most of all." Insights from David MorinDavid's near-death experience transformed his perspective on psychedelics and spirituality. He shares, "My perspective on psychedelics vastly changed because I had a very intimate experience with near death." Psychedelics are not a quick fix, but rather a tool that, when combined with personal agency and support, can lead to profound transformations and enlightenment. David remarks, “One dose of ketamine combined with talk therapy, rewires the brain, … allows [the patient] to reformulate their life in such a profound way…”David shares how psychedelics have opened his eyes to the distinction between the personal experiences shaped by societal constructs and the boundless energetic realm that encompasses us. This journey has brought him peace and a transformed outlook on existential challenges. Insights from Katherine Bell“One of the things that dreams do is they take things from the waking life, they take things from the past, they take things from the present, they take things that are totally made up, and they mix them all together, and they bring together these different ideas, these different memories, different experiences, and they put them together in new ways,” Katherine tells Scott. “…And I think psychedelics do something similar.” Embracing both dream and psychedelic states offers you an opportunity to let go of your rigid beliefs and rearrange your priorities, resulting in a fresh outlook on life when awake. Katherine reflects, “But there was something about psychedelics that kind of focused me into realizing that there's more than this body, then there's more than this earth…” She believes that psychedelics are a catalyst for spiritual exploration as they awakened her to the concept of spirituality and opened her up to the idea that there is more to life than just the physical world.Insights from Declan OcegueraDeclan shares his personal journey, where he found a sense of spirituality through psychedelic experiences. He describes a transformative moment on the dance floor, feeling a deep connection and considering it his own form of church. These experiences helped him explore spirituality outside of the traditional religious context he grew up in.At a low point in his life a guided psilocybin journey helped Declan remember and reconnect with his true self and spiritual practices, “and I can honestly say if I hadn't had that journey, that one particular guided journey, I don't know if I'd be here right now to be telling the story.” “I'm a huge advocate of using [psychedelics] in the proper way, in the right circumstances, using these tools, because they're tools that are ancient, that have been here for millennia in different cultures around the world in different ways, and they can be life saving,” Declan emphasizes. Insights from Joe Apfelbaum“To me,” Joe says, “death of the ego is being able to observe your own identity and knowing that you're not the voice in your head. … And we all know what that voice is. It's there judging and criticizing and all that stuff. So for me, the death of the ego allows me to turn off the right and the wrong, removing the judgment.” “Fear is what makes us stop taking action,” Joe tells Scott. He acknowledges the limitations of ego and the benefits of experiencing life without judgment and with heightened senses, connecting with the present moment. Psychedelics can give you a sneak peek into the spiritual realm and broaden your consciousness. They open doors to a whole new way of seeing and comprehending reality, as well as new insights into your own being. Advice for listeners:David: “It's time to start choosing to have the uncomfortable experiences that are really going to help you grow in such a profound transformative way. So don't let fear reservations and excuses and that little box that you put yourself in and what you think capable will stop you from having the experience.” Rich: “...if you get into this rut that you can't seem to get out of, then getting with someone who's trained, who's a professional to support you, perhaps with one of these psychedelics could literally be life changing or life saving.” Joe: “The things that are making you uncomfortable are action signals for you to be able to experience a whole new level of life.” Katherine: “...one of the big parts of the journey of the psychedelics and the journey around dreaming has been learning to trust myself.” ResourcesKatherine Bell: Website | Instagram | Facebook | The Dream Journal PodcastDeclan Oceguera: LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram | SoundCloudDavid Morin: InstagramJoe Apfelbaum: Ajax Union | LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | LinkTreeWebdelics On the web | YouTube | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn

Sustainability has become one of the main focal points for businesses to address in the last few years, and for good reason! We're already seeing the devastating effects of simply doing nothing in the form of more extreme weather, occurring much more frequently in areas not equip to handle it.  To encourage action from businesses, we're seeing more public and private sector contracts include a tendering requirement to show your commitment to sustainability. One such example is the need for a PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plan. In this weeks' episode David Algar, Principal Carbonologist at Carbonology, joins Mel to explain exactly what PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plans are, what the requirements mean in practice and the consequences if a business does not meet the requirements. You'll learn ·       What are PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plans? ·       What the requirements mean in practice ·       Benefits to a business ·       What if a business does not meet the requirements? Resources ●      Carbonology ●      Book a call with David Algar ●      A quick Guide to creating your PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plan   In this episode, we talk about: [00:42] Episode Summary - We're talking about PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plans because there is a government requirement to submit one. This episode will cover the what and why, in part 2 we'll go into more detail about how to create a Carbon Reduction Plan.    [02:10]  What is a PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plan? Procurement Policy Note 06/21 was introduced back in June 2021, hence the 06/21 part, and is a tendering requirement for companies looking to win contracts in the public sector that links to the Government's Net Zero target. [02:28] What is the UK government's Net Zero target? The ‘net zero target' refers to a government commitment to ensure the UK reduces its emissions by 100% from 1990 levels by 2050.   [02:55] Who does PPN apply to?: Public sector, so any businesses that works with education, local authorities, housing, infrastructure, defence, transit, and of course, the NHS who have set a goal of Net Zero by 2040. Officially this is for contracts that are valued at £5M or more, but in April 2024 the NHS will be requesting a Carbon Reduction Plan for all procurement. Unofficially, this framework could be adopted by any business, so even if you don't deal directly with the public sector, or are a subcontractor, your supply chain may soon be requesting a Carbon Reduction Plan! [04:05] Why do you need a Carbon Reduction Plan? Although the Government's targets and policies around Net Zero keep changing, the overall goal of PPN 06/21 is to encourage businesses to reach Net Zero before 2050, come up with a plan to do so, and implement emission reduction initiatives in the delivery of Government contracts. [04:35] From a businesses perspective, what are the main benefits? There are 2 main benefits: ●      It's essential for some tendering, with as much as a 10% weighting based on your carbon management and social values. Put simply, if you don't produce one when needed, you may fail the tender requirements and probably won't make the sale. ●      The second main benefit is that this isn't just a piece of paper with a graph on it, it's a great opportunity to investigate your business' GHG emissions, and put a plan in place to reduce them. This also helps you show to stakeholders that you are actually committed to environmental protection and could identify some cost savings in your business after going through all the data. ●      It's also a great addition to any existing ISO 14001 or ISO 50001 Management Systems! [06:10] What are the key requirements of PPN 06/21? –    Firstly you'll need to make a commitment to achieving net zero by 2050 at the latest. This includes annually calculating your emissions and updating the Carbon Reduction Plan. Next you'll need to report on a minimum set of GHG categories: 100% of your Scope 1 emissions, so direct emission from company vehicles, gas heating (so stuff you burn) and any fugitive emissions, which are leaks from HVAC systems for most businesses. 100% of your Scope 2 emissions which is electricity most of the time but can also refer to steam you import from an external source. You'll also need to report on 5 Scope 3 categories, these are your indirect emissions: ●      Waste generated in operations ●      Business travel in vehicles you don't own, so staff cars, flights, trains, etc ●      Commuting, so staff traveling to and from work, being careful not to double count business travel not already claimed under expenses ●      And arguably the most complicated, upstream and downstream transportation, i.e. goods in, and goods out – physical transport of goods [09:50] Are there any other categories covered by scope 3 that we should consider? –  Generally, when we produce a CRP for our clients, we'll look at a few extra Scope 3 categories such as water, homeworking, or purchased goods, so carbon reduction planning can extend to other elements of the business. In all cases you'll need to report in tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent, or tCO2e, as this accounts for the global warming potential of multiple GHGs. [11:30] Are there any ISO standards that you can align the Carbon Reduction Plan to? Yes! At Carbonology, we use ISO 14064-1. This sets out a series requirements and guiding principles for the quantification and reporting of emissions. We wouldn't necessarily have to go all the way to meeting every single requirement of the standard for your CRP but we always align with the key requirement of the standard when completing a CRP. And if you're lucky we'll also cover your SECR figures! [12:05] What is SECR? -  Streamlined Energy and Carbon Reporting. This is mandatory reporting for businesses that are defined as large, so 250+ staff, and 36M turnover or 18M on the balance sheet. [18:20] Asset Management -  In 8.2 there is a consideration for Asset Management on your side. You should take care of any assets relating to the customer, where it's stored and how it's being looked after. Standards such as ISO 27001 (Information Security) and ISO 55001 (Asset Management) already have some considerations for this. [13:30] You've calculated your GHG results, what's next?-  Once you've calculated emission from the required sources, you'll then need to look at the carbon reduction side of your Carbon Reduction Plan. To start with you'll need to outline existing initiatives you have, for instance, a sustainable travel policy, EV charging on site or a hybrid working model. It's really important that these are relevant to the delivery of the contract you are trying to secure. Next, you'll need to outline planned future initiatives, but bear in mind, these will need to be realistic and relevant, so no wild claims about buying an EV fleet or going zero waste next week! Once you've done all this you can then start looking at carbon reduction forecasts and what the numbers might look like between now and 2050 (or you chosen date. [15:10] Additional PPN 06/21 tips from David:  It will need to be signed off by a director, or equivalent, at your business to demonstrate leadership commitment. If the document isn't signed off on you may fail on the tender. You'll need to publish it on your website, making it easy to access. Simple solution to this is just add a link at the bottom of your landing page. And finally, you'll need to make sure this is kept up to date each year. Reporting for emissions occurs on a 12 monthly basis. This can either be calendar year or your financial year, but ideally, you'll want to publish the updated version as soon as you can after the year-end, certainly no longer than 6 months after. [16:40] What does a Carbon Reduction Plan look like? - When the government announced this requirement, they also released a template document that businesses can complete. This is to simplify the process for businesses that are reporting on emission for the first time, but more importantly it standardises reporting. However, the template is a bit basic! You're not marked on presentation, but you can dress it up a little as long as you don't deviate from the template too much. So feel free to put come company branding on it, make a cover page, change the font, etc. You could also make a ‘full' version of your CRP that includes further details on boundaries, methodologies and results, just make sure you only submit the template version to tenders. [19:10] What happens if you don't meet the requirements? - If you don't meet the requirements without a valid reason, chances are you'll fail the selection criteria. The selection criteria is a bit like the marking scheme associated with PPN. We can't say for a fact that this means you'll subsequently fail the tender, but it will certainly have a negative impact. For further information, David has prepared a quick guide for creating your PPN 06/21 Carbon Reduction Plan. Feel free to download it from the link provided in the Resources section.   Lastly, if you have an questions or would like to learn more about how Carbonology can help you, feel free to book a call in via David's Calendly. We'd love to hear your views and comments about the ISO Show, here's how: ●      Share the ISO Show on Twitter or Linkedin ●      Leave an honest review on iTunes or Soundcloud. Your ratings and reviews really help and we read each one. Subscribe to keep up-to-date with our latest episodes: Stitcher | Spotify | YouTube |iTunes | Soundcloud | Mailing List

Scary issues for business owners and salespeople often boil down to what you're trying to do versus what you're actually able to do. Those gaps are really the things that are going to make the biggest difference. And a lot of what we do with our clients is help them to identify, "all right, how can we help you plug these holes, overcome these fears, so that you can generate the revenue you need and the profit you need to have the business that you want to have." David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing scary issues for business owners and salespeople. Happy Halloween and welcome back, Jay. Jay: Yeah, Dave, it's great to be here with you again. And I love the Halloween theme. A lot of times starting out a new business can be very scary. But also, for me the biggest thing is the unknown and how do you plan for that? David: Yeah, that is a great one. It covers a lot of territory too, doesn't it? The unknown, because nearly everything that we think about that scares us in business is probably because we either don't know what it is or we don't know how to handle it when it comes along. So yeah, that's a really nice big umbrella one to start out with. The unknown, which in business includes a whole lot of stuff. Jay: Yeah, I think part of that is having your systems in place so that you're prepared for the unknown. I mean, we talk about the unknown, but in business, I think you can generally deal with those issues. If you've been in business over time, you kind of know annually where the scary times are going to be, but just starting out, it's hard to know. David: It really is. And as I was thinking about this episode and discussing this episode, I took some time, not always a great thing to do, but I took some time to think about what were some of the biggest scares I had over the years in business and what did they generally relate to? And I didn't actually come up with the word unknown. You came up with it, but it really does take into a lot of different things. When we think about unknown, my thinking goes back to the time when you're a child and you're scared of the dark, right? And the reason we're scared of the dark is not because of the dark. It's because we don't know what's in there. It really is about the unknown. It's not our fear of the dark. It's our fear of what could happen in the dark that could potentially be a little scary. So as I was thinking about this in terms of business, and it goes for salespeople, anyone in business, and even people who are employed and just get a salary, there are a lot of things that can come along and make life a lot scarier. A lot of them have to do with money, especially not having enough of it. If you're a business owner, the question, can I make payroll comes up? Can I pay my tax bills? Am I able to afford the things I need to do? Can I pay my mortgage, right, for my home or rent for my business, whatever it is So I think money is a big one and the unknowns that are related to that Jay: Yeah, I agree. Money is the hardest one. And people, especially starting out, they don't really know and understand the term cash flow. Right? So you may be making great money, but people aren't paying you up front or they're not paying you on a regular basis. I've worked for a company where you work for insurance companies and you had to harass them constantly in order to get your receivables paid. And in the meantime, how do you pay for the electricity? How do you pay for your staff? How do you pay for those kind of things? It can be a very difficult situation. David: It really can. And I think a lot of times the default is to say, okay, let's cut costs. What can we cut? And a lot of times that comes with, whatever, it can come with manpower. It can come with overhead. And the problem with cutting overhead, or cutting costs in some cases are first of all,

Today's guest is David Lecko.   David Lecko is the founder and CEO of DealMachine, the highest-rated mobile app to help real estate investors find off-market deals.   Show summary:   In this podcast episode, David Leko, the founder and CEO of Deal Machine, discusses the evolution of his mobile app for real estate investors. He explains how the app started as a tool for finding off-market deals and expanded to include features like running comps and pulling lists. David shares his journey from being a software developer to starting Deal Machine and how the app has improved the lives of investors. He also talks about the transition from real estate investing to running a software business and the importance of simplicity and user experience.    -------------------------------------------------------------- The Journey to Real Estate Investing [00:00:47] Building Deal Machine and Transitioning to a Business [00:03:18] The Growth and Success of Deal Machine [00:06:54] Improving App Design [00:09:16] Simplifying Features for Beginners [00:10:21] Using AI and Chat AI Format [00:11:20] Cell Tower Leases [00:18:21] Investing in Parking Lots [00:19:18] Racing [00:21:25] -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with David: Instagram/TikTok: @dlecko Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidlecko Twitter: @tweetingdavid Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100091388075419   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: David Lecko (00:00:00) - We weren't trying to change a behavior. People were driving for dollars for decades, and we just made it easier for them to do that. And then as we grew, we found out people also want to run comps. They want to know the MLS data is providing that comp, they want to pull lists. And so we've been able to do that. And I'll do it in the mobile app, which is pretty unique. I don't know that there's another solution that does all that in a mobile app.   Intro (00:00:24) - So welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.   Sam Wilson (00:00:37) - David Leko is the founder and CEO of Deal Machine, which is the highest rated mobile app to help real estate investors find off market deals. David, welcome to the show.   David Lecko (00:00:47) - Thanks, man. It's a pleasure to be here with somebody who's got such a wide experience and real estate as you write, you did single family to commercial to laundry facilities.   Sam Wilson (00:00:58) - This is true, but this show is not about me. This show is about you, David. So I'm excited to have you on the show. I've actually in a previous life and it found I'm finding out from you here before we kicked off the show is that maybe I'll start using Deal Machine yet again. There was a previous life when I was doing Single Family. I used the machine quite a bit. So it it's kind of fun to have you here on the show many years later. But before we get into all of that, there are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   David Lecko (00:01:29) - I started in Indianapolis. I'm now in Austin, Texas, and I took an airplane to get here, believe it or not. Actually, that's a lie. No, I had to drive me and my cats on the road trip. But to to seriously answer your question, I was actually my life really sucked before real estate investing.   David Lecko (00:01:47) - I was the only software developer at a company as well as the tech support and customer service representative. So I was sleeping with my computer under my pillow and at my best friend's wedding I even had to leave and go fix a bug on this software. So, you know, real estate was a way to earn more money, but also kind of earn my time back. And I took the advice to drive for dollars and look for properties. I built a little widget for myself to look for those first few properties, and that turned into a company called Deal Machine. When I found out other people were willing to spend money to try new marketing methods for their own off market deal search. So I am just blown away by how other people have been able to improve their lives using the app I created for to do myself. So I've got about I've done 15 real estate deals and I have 12 rental properties. They're all in Indianapolis.   Sam Wilson (00:02:46) - Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about I mean, because there's a, there's a, there's a split there where you find out that your business might be worth more than what you were doing in real estate itself.   Sam Wilson (00:02:58) - Like you found that shovel selling shovels to the miners became more profitable than mining itself. Kind of the old, you know, gold miners like that's and not not that you can't make money in real estate, but but that's kind of what you are like. You're selling a service to real estate investors at this point. So talk to us about that kind of transition for you and how that process worked.   David Lecko (00:03:18) - Yeah. So I got into the game because I wanted rental properties. I wanted that cash flow that would securely give me that cash flow every month, no matter what the stock market was doing. And even no matter what the real estate market was doing. I mean, rents don't go down if you look at the Federal Reserve graph. So I just knew that was my calling. I bought about, I say nine rental properties and then I stopped buying it because it had been three years or so. Deal Machine was really picking up steam and I started focusing on that. It was a bigger, faster growing opportunity.   David Lecko (00:03:53) - And then fast forward five years to now and I noticed I was like, Man, I got like $1 million of appreciation on these nine houses that I was holding. I wish I would have bought a lot more. And so now I'm, you know, I'm buying more properties again, I've done just my third deal this year so far. So kind of like a slow, steady start back into it this year. But it's been really fun. I'm loving doing it now.   Sam Wilson (00:04:20) - That's interesting. That's not the answer I would have expected. I mean, because you've built a cool I mean, a cool platform deal machines, an awesome app. For those of you that have no idea what I'm talking about. Well, now you know the name of it. Go. Go look it up, find it and figure out how to use it. But tell me, tell me. I mean, you are a software developer, so this kind of came to you naturally. But what was like how did how did you figure out? One of the questions I always had because this was what year did you launch Deal Machine 2018, 2019?   David Lecko (00:04:48) - Yeah, it was actually I started working on it 2016.   David Lecko (00:04:52) - Okay. And then I put it on the app store in 2017. Okay. And then, yeah, it wasn't well known and say I would say until 2019.   Sam Wilson (00:05:01) - Yeah, we were using it in 2018 because I hired a guy and I gave him the app and I just said, Hey, you know, here's how you drive for dollars, go out, find these houses, take photos and then bring them back. And that's what he did, actually using the Deal Machine app. But one of the things I always found to be interesting was how did you because you can pull data from counties, but how did you get it to where it would work nationwide? Because county data is so disorganized on a county by county basis that finding accurate information can sometimes be a bit of a cluster.   David Lecko (00:05:32) - So yeah, it only worked in Indianapolis. People really started talking about it though, and it was just terrible that they couldn't use it in their counties. I was wasting that moment where they wanted to try this new app that was out there, but it wasn't set up to use in there.   David Lecko (00:05:47) - So what I did was there's like several companies that aggregate this. The best is actually first American title company. Okay? And so but we tried a lot of different data providers and ended up being able to license that from one of those aggregator companies. So we get daily updates and so then that's that's live in the app. So if you've added a property, you're marketing to it saying, Hey, do you want to sell your house? If it sells, then the app will automatically update, shut that mail off and it'll tell you, Hey, this property changed hands. So we're turning off the marketing, right?   Sam Wilson (00:06:19) - No, that's cool. That makes sense. That makes sense. And that was a question I probably hadn't researched or thought more about until now because I'm getting rewinding five years of my business going. How did they get that? So you went to a third party aggregator of data, not directly to the source, because at the source was just such a quagmire of relevant information. I'll say it.   Sam Wilson (00:06:41) - I'll say to that that way. So talk to me about Deal Machine. What's it been like growing that app? What's it been like growing the user base, the iterations of it, the team that supports it? Talk to us about just the business side.   David Lecko (00:06:54) - Yeah, I feel thankful that I started this journey for freedom and luckily I was able to build a business without any investors and I have a business partner who's my best friend, but we kind of. Always have to please the customer, but there's not necessarily like an individual that would tell us to do one thing or another. And so I've been fortunate that we've had such a great partnership over these seven years without having to do that, which is so typical with software also. I mean, I think the true reason why that happened is because we weren't trying to change a behavior. People were driving for dollars for decades and we just made it easier for them to do that. And then as we grew, we found out people also want to run comps.   David Lecko (00:07:35) - They want to know the MLS data is providing that comp, they want to pull lists. And so we've been able to do that. And I'll do it in the mobile app, which is pretty unique. I don't know that there's another solution that does all that in a mobile app. So that's been pretty wild. The growth, I mean, like I said, I only wanted one property and that was the outcome of making this widget, you know, and I the I'm just continue like I continue to be thankful for the success that we've had and those that we've been able to help. And man, one of the stories that just sticks out to me is Cody Shafer is a guy I met a few months ago at a conference, and he was an Uber driver making $30,000 a month because he drive Uber, take the money he made from Uber, put it into his marketing to market to these rundown houses that he saw while he was delivering food. And I was like, Dang, you've got to be like the highest Uber driver out there.   David Lecko (00:08:32) - And so Cody is a guy who just makes me smile. I'm like, Dang, he's using my app to do that.   Sam Wilson (00:08:38) - That's cool, man. That's really, really cool. Talk to you about the iterations of this app. I mean, because that's it seems like keeping up. And again, I'm not a software developer, I can barely send an email. So keeping up with the iterations of like the new developments, keeping up with stuff in the App store, keeping up with the I mean, because I'm sure you get a thousand requests for, hey, can you make this thing, you know, fly us all to the moon? Like, no, I can't add that one on the list, but thanks for the offer. Like, how do you keep up with those? Just probably endless requests for updates.   David Lecko (00:09:07) - Yeah, well, so first of all, it looked really ugly because I made it myself, but I knew how to use it. It was functional, but it just looked ugly.   David Lecko (00:09:16) - And then I started getting a few signups per day. I was getting on 30 minute phone calls with them to tell them how to use the app. I was like, Man, it's got to be more self explanatory than that. So step two was I called my partner and he wasn't my partner at the time, but I was like, You're a better developer than me. You've got to make this look good. And so people need to know how it works without calling me for 30 minutes. Yeah. So that was step two. And then step three, we did we did listen to all the feature requests and in fact, we built them all. But Sam, I've got to be honest, like I always am. I'm always honest. Such a weird thing. I actually regret doing that because all of that complexity actually made it confusing for a new person who was just trying to create financial freedom for themselves and do their first deal. It made them have more analysis paralysis. So then step four is we kind of made it very simple again, even though we can do other things like run comps that it didn't do in the first place, It's just if there's an advanced feature, it's kind of tucked away.   David Lecko (00:10:21) - It's very hard to make complex things simple, but we've put a lot of effort into making it simple. And then five is just reduce the bugs further, make sure this is the most stable experience possible so that it is always feeling polished and nobody can tell when we've updated it. It wouldn't disturb their workflow, but we've kind of gotten a really good groove of that. So those would be like the five iterations I would say with Deal Machine, that's wild.   Sam Wilson (00:10:48) - Yeah. And that I think is the challenge of all. And it's funny, I was talking to another, another software firm here this morning on the show and we were talking about that, you know, taking the complex and making it simple, making the dashboard simple, making it to where there's no coding, no training, no like, hey, watch the 87 videos on how to actually get this to work. Right process, which, you know, I find that most most things that do require that. So you kind of dialed back a lot of the more robust features and went back to the back to the basics.   David Lecko (00:11:20) - Yeah. Like, for example, a lot of times I don't know what a property's worth, I will guess, but the comps tool is helpful for me to see that we now have the AI. When that all came out, we put that in the app and then it has access to real estate data, which is unique. The AI is out there, don't have access to real estate data otherwise. And so it can help me know what is the property worth, what does it think the comp is worth? And so I can also ask it for advice on responding to an objection from a seller. And that's a tool that's helping a lot of beginners get past that analysis paralysis in that in that chat AI format, right? You can ask it a lot of things just all right there in the chat window. So that's just one example of how we've incorporated something that's a little bit more advanced. But still in a simple way.   Sam Wilson (00:12:07) - Right. And I guess getting into the cops thing, I mean, that kind of goes if you have the feature, that's cool, but it kind of goes against the whole driving for Dollar's methodology, which is that really we're out here, we want to find 100 properties that we want to market to.   Sam Wilson (00:12:24) - And if they're, if they're dog looking properties, yeah, I want to take a photo of that and I want to market it like so the cops.   David Lecko (00:12:30) - Comes, the cops comes later when they call you back from your mailer and then you put together an offer. So that's what the cops are for, is when you're later in the process getting that call back.   Sam Wilson (00:12:41) - Right. Right. You don't need that the day you're standing there in front of the house going, man, like this grass is eight feet tall. I wonder what this house is. Actually fair market value is like, who cares? Take a picture like, Yeah, send him a postcard. Can I. Can I. Can I. Can I make you an offer? Well, let's talk about that side of it. I mean, when when I was using the the app back in 2018, I mean, you would drive up to a house, you could take the picture, and then you could mail a postcard. Right from the app, which I thought was one of the coolest features.   Sam Wilson (00:13:08) - Do you guys I haven't used the app in five years. So tell me, is that something you guys still do?   David Lecko (00:13:13) - Of course, yeah. I mean, I just did a deal a couple of months ago, and she called me because she's like, Hey, this postcard you sent, it has the picture of my actual house. Now, I didn't take it, but I pay a driver 20 an hour in Indianapolis to drive around and look for rundown properties. So he took the photo and I knew it was a good house because I could review the photos. I was like, Yeah, this this looks rundown. And so then she was like, Well, I called you because it looked like you put in a lot of time into this. I got other mailers, but I called you because you're stood out. I ended up missing out on the deal, but I kept in touch with her and said, Hey, is this thing closed yet? I just want to make sure you're taking care of.   David Lecko (00:13:51) - Funny enough, it fell out of the deal, fell through. And so then I got it for my original price and I did end up buying that deal for 122. I hear anecdotally that these mailers, they're actually causing people to call me instead of somebody else. So that's something that I've continued to do, is send the mail with the picture of the house on there. I think that's part of the magic.   Sam Wilson (00:14:14) - Part of the magic, absolutely. And the fact that, again, it's within and I'm not you know, I'm telling you things you already know, but it absolutely was when I was using them like, this is so powerful that I can take a picture of the house, you know, or like you, you know, I had a guy that was driving around taking photos for me. He could take a picture of himself like, Hey, here I am, you know, stand in front of your property like I'm actually here. Yeah. And so it removed a lot of the complexity and hit mail right from the app.   Sam Wilson (00:14:39) - So I think that's really, really cool. I love the way that you've also simplified it when you add it on to when you feel like this is too hard, we're going to do we're going to dial this back. Where does Dial Machine go from this point forward? What's what's the horizon look like for you guys?   David Lecko (00:14:54) - I think there's a lot of people that want to quit their jobs and build a business with a proven business model. I mean, most of the people use our app to do wholesaling real estate. I think we've only even scratched the surface. So my team, like the app grew on its own, which was crazy. I'm so lucky for that. And we've been now been able to reach more people this year specifically than we have in the past because we've started doing marketing. So, you know, I just am excited about the people we can help achieve an awesome life where they're not bound by just a 9 to 5 and they can make more in a month than they possibly did in a year sometimes, which is always really, really fun to do.   David Lecko (00:15:35) - So that's what I'm really excited about. In terms of what can dial Machine the app do, I would say there's one thing, Sam, that it still doesn't do yet and we will be getting to that eventually, but it's receiving the phone calls through a number that is incorporated in deal machines. So that way, you know, when your cell phone rings, you know, hey, this is like a money phone call and then the call can be logged automatically in deal machine. So that hasn't been done before, but I think that's going to really close the loop on that thing we all struggle with. It was just like follow up and entering notes in the CRM and keeping track of things like that because just like the deal I mentioned, that follow up was awesome and that's what got me the deal. So if the calls are coming back in through Deal Machine, I know we can help people with that follow up piece as.   Sam Wilson (00:16:28) - Well, right? Yeah, the money's in the follow up, so that's, that's really cool.   Sam Wilson (00:16:33) - I love I love that. It's always fun to hear. I mean, there's it's we never solve all the problems. We just kind of like every new solution creates another problem to solve, which is kind of kind of the way of life in its own right. But it's also you get to work on the ones that are even more fun. What about on the commercial side of things? I'll ask a question that pertains to me personally in in the sense that we are in heavy acquisition of laundry facilities. And so let's assume I drive up to a inn. Maybe, maybe this is where the challenge becomes. So I'm going to present to two challenges to you. I drive up. To a laundry facility will deal machine recognize commercial properties as well. Or is it just residential?   David Lecko (00:17:11) - Yeah so you're typical single family type list. You know, might be code enforcement list or absentee owners with high equity or expired MLS listings, all of which you can pull in deal machine. But on the commercial side, you can search buildings by units if you're looking for apartments, for example.   David Lecko (00:17:31) - And then we have this fun part of the app called Weird and Unusual property types. So beyond just being entertaining to look through, we've got dry cleaners slash laundry service and we also have self-service laundromat. And then right below that is a slaughterhouse stockyard. So you're probably not interested in that. You probably just stop right there, but thought that would be a fun example of what else is in that weird and unusual property type category.   Sam Wilson (00:17:57) - Yeah, I'm going to stop at the slaughterhouse and or stop before we get there. But but thanks for making that option one.   David Lecko (00:18:04) - One of the other property types was there's an investor who just invest in cell towers, and I thought that was really interesting. He said most carriers will actually rent the cell tower. Yeah, so that's even a property type that you can search for.   Sam Wilson (00:18:21) - Now, that's really cool. I mean, it was Amir Waldman, the guy that was was was he the one you talked to about the cell tower leases?   David Lecko (00:18:30) - I can't think of his name, and I don't know if that was his name.   David Lecko (00:18:33) - Okay. Okay. But you know somebody.   Sam Wilson (00:18:35) - Yeah, I do. Yeah. He specializes in brokering cell tower leases. So anyway, for those of you who are listening to the show, look up Meir Waldman. If you're just curious, like who? The world. What's he talking about? Really cool. Yeah, really cool knee. She came on the show maybe two years ago. And of course, I can't forget his name because the only guy I've ever met that specializes in cell tower leases. But yeah, you can go back and find that one. It's somewhere, I don't know, 300 episodes ago, but we were talking about something totally different than The Machine. He got off on a tangent, but that's a cool property type that you can look up and those are oftentimes the things that are just they're so nuanced. Well, here's here's let me throw this nuance at you. At one point I was investing in parking lots like surface parking lots and parking garages. Do you guys have that as a weird and unusual asset type?   David Lecko (00:19:18) - We do.   David Lecko (00:19:18) - And I actually had a dream before I ever bought any property. I was like, Man, I would love to own a parking lot because there's no upkeep on it. And they charge $40 a parking spot per night sometimes.   Sam Wilson (00:19:33) - So we bought we bought a parking asset in Houston, Texas. We paid, we bought 19. Who cares? We're talking. We'll talk about a lot of fun things in the show today. But 19 parking spaces, we paid $1.2 Million for it. Okay. That's a lot. It's a lot. That's it. Literally, it was a lot. I mean, yeah, it's a lot. And it was a lot. But it threw off $150,000 a year in not operating income.   David Lecko (00:20:00) - And not a lot of expenses. Right? Like, what's it going to do?   Sam Wilson (00:20:03) - What's it going to do? Flood We'll wait for the water to go down like. Right. Okay. It's it's a service parking lot. So yes, yes. There are opportunities like that where it's like, okay, this is just a stupid return with.   David Lecko (00:20:16) - How did you find that deal?   Sam Wilson (00:20:18) - Uh, driving for dollars.   David Lecko (00:20:20) - Heck, yeah. That's awesome. You just sent the mail to the owner, and they called you back.   Sam Wilson (00:20:24) - Researched them, making maps. I mean, that's a whole nother conversation earlier today. But, yeah, it was literally just okay, you know, mapping out all of the parking lots in Houston, Texas. I literally have a Google map still with every pin of every parking lot finding the owners, which is a total pain in the neck and then making offers. And so, yeah, it can be done. So it But just to your.   David Lecko (00:20:44) - You're my idol.   Sam Wilson (00:20:46) - No, sir. No, sir. I'm just just copying a page out of your book on driving for dollars. So that's, that's really the way that works. I mean, so that's really cool that you have that asset class in there because nobody else at this point has really ever said. I mean, it's just been a very manual process of determining what those are.   Sam Wilson (00:21:00) - So that is fantastic. I'm gonna have to compare what you have in your database against what I can go back to five years ago or four years ago and say, hey, what, what, what was I missing at any particular city? So that's really cool. Let's talk about something even more random and fun. We talked about racing. You moved to Austin and you moved to Austin and you got into racing Watts. What's that about?   David Lecko (00:21:25) - Yeah. So back in 2019, my friend said, Hey, I'm doing this race where you bring a $500 car and you drive it for 24 hours and we've got three drivers, we'd need a fourth. Would you want to do it? Usually a person who likes just weird stuff like that. And even though I had never driven this car or been on a track, I was super pumped. I said yes. And the first time I drove it, we didn't even practice with it. And the seat was like too small. And I was strapped in too tight and I was like, Dude, I cannot do this.   David Lecko (00:22:01) - I was the second driver. Cars are flying by on the track and he just shut the door and he's like, Do it. See you later. Be careful. And that was the first time I ever drove. And it took all of my mental capacity and I was not even going up to speed, but it was all almost like too much, right? But it was so refreshing that I couldn't think about anything else. I was just focused on what was going on right there. And and then I started to notice every lap I got a little bit more comfortable. So open up, more capacity, I could go a little bit faster and then just competing to see how fast could I go. And that was that was just an amazing feeling. Like I said, it was a break from anything else that was going on in life and that was something I really, really loved. So then I moved to Austin like a year and a half ago. There's a club racetrack here. It's $300 a month and they have a Miata Race series.   David Lecko (00:22:53) - So you have to have like a 1991 miata and it's only got 100 horsepower. That is the cap. And then they strip it all down and it's all everybody is the same car. So then it's skill based. So there's like 30 people out there. We do 18 races per year. This is we I've done ten races so far. So I got a coach, worked a lot with him and went from getting lapped to now I finished like fourth place was my best finish. The last race we did. So it's been fun just to get better at stuff and that is just one of the most rewarding things in the world to me.   Sam Wilson (00:23:28) - Dude, that's so cool. Like what? What a nuance and what what a what to talk about niche like that's way niching down a miata 1991 Mazda miata 100 horsepower car I do you had a $500 car that was supposed to run for 24 hours straight.   David Lecko (00:23:47) - That's part of the challenge. It's a racing's not just for rich idiots, for all idiots, you know.   David Lecko (00:23:52) - And so but yeah, so, so now the Miata Race series, the car is definitely I mean, I've spent like 14,000 to buy the car and set it up properly. Um, but it is one of the best cars to actually learn on because if you do not execute the corners in the highest speed way, you don't have horsepower to fix the problem. So you're going to be slow the whole straightaway. And so it really is great for driver development and being out there in a real race against other cars. It puts you in these situations where it's not only good enough to be faster than somebody, but you have to know how to pass them to. And that's like a totally different thing when you're trying to, you know, get around somebody who's like of a similar skill level as you. So it's just a lot more to learn. And it's so much fun, like I said, to get better.   Sam Wilson (00:24:43) - Wow. That's really, really cool. I mean, how fun is that? And again, like it just that's, that's the thing I love about stuff like that.   Sam Wilson (00:24:52) - You said it already, but it's like you can't think about anything else. You can't think about your work. You're not you can't think about Deal Machine. You can't think about your properties. You think can't think about, you know, pending closings. It is I have to race and there's nowhere else for my mind to go except for right here.   David Lecko (00:25:08) - Exactly.   Sam Wilson (00:25:09) - That's so cool. And like, not for just for rich idiots. It's for all idiots. So that's. That's pretty fun, man.   David Lecko (00:25:15) - That race series is called The 24 Hours of LeMans, which is a play on Word to that famous race called Lima in France. So it's yeah, it's like a race that they do those all around the country.   Sam Wilson (00:25:26) - Dude, that's cool. I'll have to check that out. The 24 hour race. I'm going to write that down here. David It's been a blast having you come on the show today and talk about Deal Machine. Talk about you growing the company, the app, how you've used it personally and then how it's making a difference in other people's lives.   Sam Wilson (00:25:41) - I don't know if you know this as well. I was I'm a Hoosier as well, actually. I used to own a business in Carmel, Indiana, which is where I think you're from. So it's it's blast to have you here on the show today and talk about a lot of different random stuff. But if we if our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   David Lecko (00:25:58) - I got to do a selfish plug for my own podcast, The Deal Machine Real Estate Investing podcast. I co-host it with Ryan Haywood, who's done 400 deals after he did a 14 day challenge back in 2019. So he and his wife, they made 8500 bucks in their first deal. Now we co-host a podcast and we talk to. People who have quit their jobs through this wholesaling real estate business model. And so that would be a great way to get to know me because just like this podcast, I just learned so much of random stuff talking with you and that was so fun.   David Lecko (00:26:33) - So but I'm also on Instagram is the best place to contact me on Instagram.   Sam Wilson (00:26:39) - Fantastic. Delete, go on Instagram. We'll make sure we put that there in the show notes. David, thank you again for your time today. I do appreciate it.   David Lecko (00:26:46) - Thanks, Sam.   Sam Wilson (00:26:47) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.

In the studio today is David Leon, Director of Workforce Programs at the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services (DARS), and Kate Kaegi, Project Manager for the DIF. In recognition of Disability Awareness Month, the second podcast of our DIF series includes David and Kate explaining how Virginia's DIF grant was initiated, implemented, and adjusted to best reach their initiatives of placing 750 individuals with disabilities in STEM and healthcare careers, registered apprenticeships, and State, County, and City jobs. Learn about the challenges they navigated and what they recommend when applying for a DIF grant.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} David: Don't be afraid to apply for a diff grant. It is an amazing opportunity to infuse energy and enthusiasm into your workforce. It is a chance to stretch, learn new skills, try new programs. You get to see staff flourish and more importantly, get some really cool outcomes for the clients we serve.   Kate: I was a little intimidated with the idea of RSA, but what I have found is this RSA is there to help us. They want us to succeed.   David: You can accomplish some great things.   Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David Leon, director for workforce programs at the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services, or DARS, and Kate Kaegi, project manager for the DEP. So David, how are things going at DARS?   David: They are great. We are plugging along, working on our grant. A colleague has a SWITZI grant, so it's been neat to really try a bunch of new things here in Virginia.   Carol: Very cool. So how are you Kate?   Kate: I am doing spectacular. Thank you for having me here today.   Carol: You bet. So, David, you and I had a chance to visit in a podcast on work incentives counseling in April of 22. And just so you know, you were one of my top five downloads. And when I think of Virginia, I always think of you and all the amazing things that have been cooking all the time. You guys always have something in the hopper and this is no different. So I started a series of podcasts focused on the diff grants and career advancement, and you are the second in my series and happened to fall in October with a nod to Disability Employment Awareness Month. So I want to just give our listeners a little snippet again about the diff grant. And so this particular round, the grant activities are geared to support innovative activities aimed at improving the outcomes of individuals with disabilities. And the Career Advancement Initiative model. Demonstrations were funded in federal fiscal year 2021. They were intended to identify and demonstrate practices supported by evidence to assist eligible individuals with disabilities, including previous served participants in employment who reenter the program to do the following. They were looking at advancing in high demand, high quality careers like science, technology, engineering and math, or those Stem careers to enter career pathways in industry driven sectors through pre apprenticeships, registered apprenticeships and industry recognized apprenticeship programs to improve and maximize competitive integrated employment outcomes, economic self-sufficiency, independence and inclusion in society, and to reduce reliance on public benefits like SSI, SSDI, or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and State or local benefits. Now, I remember reading in the announcement some of that sort of I thought it was disturbing data that provided the base for why RSA picked this particular area and chose to fund it. And they based it on the program year 2019, RSA 911 data. And some of the things that they said were participants that were exiting the program in competitive integrated employment reported a median wage of 12 bucks an hour and working like 30 hours a week. And the top ten most common occupations were reported. They were like stock clerks and they were order fillers, customer service reps, janitors, cleaners. I call it the whole Food, Filth and Flowers. So I know through this initiative they were trying to do more. So let's dig into what you guys have cooking in Virginia. David, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. How did you get to VR?   David: Thanks, Carol. Started as a job coach years ago. We won't say when. It'll make me feel old, and I worked for a private nonprofit. I then assisted in Virginia, working with individuals, exiting a training center and moving towards community living. From there, I came back to the Richmond area to work for a community service board and again was a job coach and then worked within a sheltered work and day services program before coming to DARS, where I started with the Ticket to Work program and now have that the work incentives and a few grants and the workforce programs.   Carol: You and I have very similar backgrounds. I too was a job coach. I did work in a sheltered workshop for a while as well and all of that. It's always interesting how people find their way to VR. Kate, how about you? Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got to VR?   Kate: I kind of fell into this. A lot of times, similar to other people. Unexpectedly, I found out about East Carolina's rehab program and that they had a scholarship for people who wanted to get their master's. And I'm like, Oh, free money. So I jumped into that. Absolutely loved it. I did my internship at the Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitative Center. It was called something or a different title when I started back in the day. As I tell my kids, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I was there, started off there as an evaluator and then kind of moved across the state, became a rehab counselor in the field, have done transition counseling, substance abuse counseling, went back to Boca Vale for a little bit, even dipped my toes into the world of job coaching and worked with David for a period of time at the CSV, came back to DARS, worked with the Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired, and also, as an aside, also had joined the military during that timeframe on the reserve side. So I'm out of that at this point. So I have quite an eclectic background. As a supervisor once said that I couldn't make up my mind what I wanted to do, but it was all overall 24 years of work working with individuals with disabilities in a variety of areas. So it really kind of dovetailed well for me to work in the first dif grant that we received prior to this grant where I was a VMA or Virginia Manufacturing Association liaison for our grant. And when we were working on this Phase two grant, it was just pulling from what we've learned previously and growing from there. And so here I am.   Carol: I love it, it positions you really well for the work under this new grant. Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. So, David, why don't you paint us a picture of Virginia DARS How many staff do you have? About how many people are you all serving?   David: Okay, DARS comprises the Division of Rehabilitative Services, the Disability Determination Services, Aging Services. We have roughly 28 to 30 offices around the state and are currently serving just around 18,000 clients. If you include Pre-ETS in those totals.   Carol: that's a bunch., holy cow. I didn't realize you guys were that big.   David: Yeah, and that doesn't include however many cases DDS is handling or our aging or the other units. But that's a little bit about DARS, and I like to say we stretch from the Atlantic Ocean all the way to almost as far west as Detroit. If you go down to Bristol, Virginia, which is technically a little further than Detroit. So lots of types of environments and communities and very unique challenges in different areas.   Carol: Yeah, so you're definitely facing different geographical issues and I'm sure probably even economic differences. You know, if you're talking the coast versus maybe more of a rural area. So I'm sure there's probably some challenges there with even getting providers or how you're providing services.   David: It's interesting. One of the things we've been able to see in, for instance, Southwest Virginia, there is an economic center that's only 16 miles away from an office. But to get there, you go over three mountains and it could take two hours. So are those jobs really accessible to someone without a vehicle? On paper from Richmond, it might look like, why aren't we placing folks in this community out of that office? Well, it's a two hour drive each way, and that's the only way to do it. You mentioned at the beginning those top ten job areas. And one of the things we're really trying to challenge ourselves with now is giving people the information to make an informed decision about a career choice. But if they choose a career that might not look as great, what is the best potential version of that job? What is the job within that sector that actually could become a career? So at the beginning when we were starting to work on this, our agency had been in order of selection for years with categories closed and with the pandemic. That all changed. But the clients we were seeing didn't change and their goals didn't change. I think that's going to be a longer term conversation. But if we can do things to promote the best version of a position. And so I'll just give you one example. And our commissioner, other folks would probably say, why do we have so many folks who want jobs in food service or in this? Because typically they're low paying. Typically there's a lot of turnover. It's hard to become stable. One of the first projects we worked on in this grant was a partnership with a school nutrition program, and we've been able to help a few individuals enter into work in a kitchen at a school where they have the same hours. Monday through Friday. They have the opportunity for benefits. In one case, we couldn't find transportation. That school system was allowing the individual to take the school bus for that person. That's a really stable job and it's somewhere they can grow and thrive for years. So I do want to just say we have to think a little bit differently about what Kate or I or others might think of as a career. How do we find that best option for someone where there is room for growth, but equally important room for that time for stability to get to mastery, to then look at other skills and hopefully down the road they'd come back, not because they lost that job and need it again, but because they've learned so much that they want to go on to the next thing of their own accord.   Carol: Yeah, I like that you said that because I remember that when we visited before talking about that best version of that job. So not to mean that no one can work in kind of food, filth and flowers. I know I say that and it sounds sort of condescending and it's not meant to be. But we typically relied on kind of those occupations, really entry level. But I like that you're taking a spin on that and really looking deeper because we need folks to work in those occupations too. And there's people that love doing that work. But how like you say, can you do the best version of that? So you have benefits and you're looking at those long term like working in a school district, you can get retirement and all these different really awesome things that go with that. So, Kate, I'm going to switch to you. So big picture, break it down for us on your grant proposal and what you're hoping to accomplish with I know you had said you have three core components. Talk a little bit about that.   Kate: Sure. I do want to make a caveat that I love about this grant is it is a demonstration grant, meaning we have the opportunity to try out innovative products and projects across the state. I just want to put a caveat on that to keep that in your mind as I'm going forward here. So our main goal is to place 750 individuals with disabilities in federal, state, county, city jobs and or registered apprenticeships or also Stem and health careers. So we have those three main components on that. And when we looked at this grant and David worked on the development and the proposal for this, we really wanted to touch individuals that had been kind of missed in the first grant. And this I think, is something as we're doing a grant, you're learning all the time. And we wanted to make sure that we were hitting those unserved and underserved across the state. So individuals that aren't as plentiful in different areas. So say like Winchester has a large Hispanic population, does that reflect the number served in the actual DARS office? How do we get Spanish speaking individuals more involved in DARS? How do we get women who may only recognize those areas that you talked about that flower filth? And because that's what they're aware of, that's the work they've done in the past. So I just need another job in that area. How can we open up some possibilities? Have you thought about the IT field? Have you thought about advanced manufacturing and can you see yourself doing that? So providing those opportunities, it's a way for us to look at those unserved and underserved across the state. And we're defining that as we're going and we're looking at the census data, we're looking at who we're serving within each state. And then we're also looking at our plans, the plans that the rehab counselors are creating. What are those plans? What is the main goal? Overall we see a lot of customer service because it's kind of a catch all. What does that mean? Is that customer service as a helpdesk technician as opposed to just somebody as a receptionist? So we're really helping both the VRC, the counselor, and the candidate explore possibilities like that.   Carol: I like that. I just love what you guys are doing and really fundamentally getting down, digging in and really focusing on those folks that have been underserved or unserved and just taking that twist on the occupation because there's a wide range like within customer service, you have the job from here to here.   Kate: Exactly.   Carol: Yeah, that is very cool. Now, I know you all had some really weird hiccups in the beginning when you were starting out with this particular grant. So what were some of those kind of hiccups and how did you overcome that? And Kate, I'll probably shoot to you first on this.   Kate: So part of the thing that I didn't mention was is that the roles that our team players have. So we have a liaison with Department of Labor and Industry, specifically the registered apprenticeship side. So they have their foot in the DOLI world and the foot in the DARS world. We also have a team member who has their foot in the Department of Human Resource Management Liaison, and then also her toes are also dipping in the DARS. So we've had some different team members on that. We also have a quick response, counselor, somebody who can go in and respond to immediate needs of employers, of an individual that might be working with them, that has a disability, that might need some help, whether that's in a registered apprenticeship or on that particular job. During the first year we hired and we had everybody up and running and we had two team members, one had a medical emergency and had to move away from the position because there was some driving involved. And then unfortunately, we had Lisa Hanky, who passed away unexpectedly on us. So, you know, you get all getting that hiring going and then all of a sudden we lost two individuals, so we had to restart that process.   David: But Kate, if I can add to that, and I believe this is true for everyone in our round of this DIF funding, I believe we were told two days before the beginning of the project, it was about a day after that that, you know, many agencies coming out of the pandemic have had challenges with staffing and we had those challenges in our procurement division. So getting contracts signed, getting those staff replaced. But the other thing that has been a challenge and we're finally coming out of. We created three positions that this agency has never had, and it had meant that we had to learn how to provide quality support to two other state agencies in the context of working with DARS and similarly with our quick response counselors. So we created these positions that we had an idea of how they could work. But once someone got into those roles and was learning the other agency, we've had to be flexible in understanding how they can actually benefit our clients and our agency. And that has been a learning process.   Carol: You guys bring up a really good point because I think sometimes when folks are applying for the DIF grant, you're not recognizing off the get-go That first year can be a struggle because like you said, you found out two days before and then you get the money. And then as we know with any state government, it takes time to hire and like to get through all those processes. And so RSA may be on one hand going like spend the money and you're like, we're trying, but we've got to get through all our HR processes and all this crazy stuff. So it takes a little bit to get rolling in that first year. And I know we often on the TA world are talking with people as they're applying for grants going just know as you're going into it that first year, you're probably not going to spend the amount of funds you projected originally because there's just is a time factor and getting through all of that.   Kate: Absolutely. That was the one thought that David and I, if you know, we apply for another one down the road, maybe making that first year a little bit less intensive and spreading it out from year 2 to 5 because that's where the major work will be done.   Carol: Yeah, that's smart. Very smart. So I know you guys were talking about some challenges. What are some other particular challenges that you're experiencing right now?   Kate: Well, I'll get started on that piece. One of the things we have found similar to the staffing, the challenge that we had when we first started of hiring individuals, we're finding a turnover in staff in DARS. And so we are having a lot of younger counselors that have, in some cases don't have a rehab background. They might have a social work background. So we have a lot of training that we're doing and then redoing on that. We're having a training coming up in October for the VOC rehab counselors and we're getting kind of back to basics. What makes a good referral for our Pathways Grant, looking at those possibilities of not just that receptionist job, let's look at helpdesk. What are the opportunities that are out there? And so that has been kind of a challenge, is just retraining. And I think this is kind of normal across the board. But these rehab counselors are busy. They have a lot more documentation they have to put in Aware. There's a lot more individuals coming through their door because we have the rapid engagements, so they are overwhelmed. And how can we dovetail our services to best support them, how to make the referral process as easy as possible for them, what supports make the most sense for them? So that's been one of the interesting challenges.   Carol: So, Kate, have you guys done anything around just the way in which your staff or the support of those counselors, do you have like other staff that are kind of wrapped around them, whether you call them maybe a rehab tech or some sort of a case aide or whatever it might be that can help the counselors with sort of all the documentation requirements and that kind of thing. Have you done some work in that?   Kate: Actually, here in Virginia, we do have support. We have vocational evaluators, placement counselors and what they call employment service specialists that run the job club and things like that. And they can help support with some of the paperwork. But similar to other states that actually have like a rehab tech that would do some of the counseling or the that kind of thing, not as much. And each office is run a little bit different. That's part of the appeal. And what I mean by that is, is some of the offices might not have a vocational evaluator, some might have a placement counselor that might be covering more than one office so that there is enough differences on that piece. But yeah, that has been a struggle for keeping all of that work and getting it done for them.   Carol: Yeah, You're definitely joined by your colleagues across the country on that. I keep hearing that over and over. David did you have anything else you wanted to add to that about any of the particular challenges?   David: Yeah, I think we wrote this knowing we needed to do some things better and serve certain populations differently to get to where people had the same outcome regardless of gender, race, ethnicity. And that is still a challenge. We are learning that we have a long way to go to effectively serve those folks who have English as a second language. And when we started the project, we started with like a counselor advisory board to help not only create buy in, but inform us what the counselors needed. We have now shifted to an advisory board geared towards helping us do better with the Hispanic Latino population, and that English is a second language. So we're hoping over this next year, working with members of our state who are representative of those groups will actually help us figure out what services are going to be most likely to bring people in for help. What supports we will need to think about providing for those individuals to be successful. And again, it goes back to how do we help people see for themselves greater opportunities and careers than they might have.   Carol: So are you linked in then with your like your WIOA partners on your adult basic ed side? Like under that, you know, the English as a second language, Like they're more expert than us in working with that group?   Kate: Absolutely. One of our key partners is the Virginia Adult Learning Resource Center, who teach the adult ed, they help support them across the state when we get further along I'll talk about some of the projects that we're working with with them.   Carol: Yeah, that's excellent. I love that. So I know you guys are seeing some exciting results. What kind of exciting results are percolating up?   Kate: So one of the things that we found as we're moving forward is we actually had working with adult Ed, we had a program that we were doing Intro to IT, where we're starting a basic starting platform for accounting fundamentals, and we were ready to go. We had seven individuals in this first cohort, and one of the things we found was the individuals that we met, even though we just came through Covid with all of the tech training, we had individuals they knew enough to get on to Zoom and to do some items, but we really needed to step back and do some basic tech training. So, they had enough gaps in their knowledge that they couldn't move forward without some major help. So what happened on this is, is we stepped back and started to do some digital literacy training and they moved forward with that. And each of those individuals are now moving forward with the accounting fundamentals this summer. So stepping back, we're actually looking at what we're calling digital work skills training, which is really exciting opportunity for individuals to get started with North Star digital literacy. We're working on goal setting some soft skill development just to get them started on that end. So we have individuals that would typically not be able to go to a virtual training actually get started there. And what we're finding with that end is, is that we have some individuals, you know, those customer service people who just want to do clerical, they're getting introduced to IT. And so we've had a few individuals that have moved on to our next training, which we call the Max Career Lab. And Max Potential is an employer here in Virginia. And I think they go into other states as well, several other states. And what they are, they're a temp agency for IT employment. So they hire individuals to work with Dominion, to work with, you know, with all these employers doing various IT. But they have a unique hiring model. They actually have an opportunity where individuals come in and they go through a career lab five day, three hours a day, 15 hours of a career lab. Then they do an interview. During those five days, they do an overview of data analytics, networking, all these different career areas. So they'll do an hour and a half of overview of the career, and then they do an actual interactive activity that they break out in groups for. So it's a great way to explore the IT field. So we've hired them to actually run career labs for us. They do the 15 hours, then they get homework and then they have an interview assessment. So the interview is just like a typical interview that they run, but they follow up with what activities that they're interested in. So this has been a wonderful way for us to explore different IT areas and to help individuals determine what area of IT they want to do. Here in Virginia, we're blessed. We've got Nova, we've got a lot of IT careers, but counselors and vocal evaluators don't always know how to direct somebody into the right avenue because technology is always changing. You know, cybersecurity, cybersecurity, that's always a great one, right? Because we're right here in Nova. However, not everybody wants to do cyber. Have you thought of data analytics? Have you thought of the different networking positions? Have you thought of machine learning? You know what, all is out there? And so it's an opportunity for us to do a hands on career exploration and next steps with an actual employer running the sessions for us.   Carol: That's cool. Yeah, I hadn't heard about a career lab before like that. That is very intriguing because so many people learn much better, you know, by actually experiencing seeing what that's about because it can sound cool. You read about something like the cybersecurity was the big deal, but then you get into it and you're like, Oh, I don't really want to do that, you know? So giving them that opportunity, I think that's fabulous.   Kate: Yes, and we have had our first cohort. We had 25 people sign up. We had 22 complete the whole piece. That includes the interview.  Of that group we had six individuals. So they compare the group together, but they also compare them to the other public groups that they have across the board. So of those individuals, six are encouraged to look at direct work experience. The rest have been encouraged to do a few other activities, like maybe develop more professional skills or develop more tech training, possibly, you know, accounting fundamentals. We had one that decided they did not want to do IT training. And I'm thinking, what a great opportunity you now know what you don't want to do. And for us, that can be great, right? So we're looking at some other options for that young man. It has been a wonderful opportunity. We're now in our second cohort and our hope is, is to keep continuing this as we're going through this grant and to see how we can set this up once the grant is over.   Carol: Very cool. Have you had any surprises kind of as you've started this. I know you're in year two. Are there any surprises?   David: I think there are always surprises. This is right. Staff and surprises some of the opportunities that have come up. I don't think we anticipated. So we've shifted to take advantage. One of the big pieces of this grant is our focus on state hiring and the individual we hired for that aspect worked diligently during the first six months with them on an alternative hiring process through the legislation, had a go live date, whether we were ready or not. And what we didn't understand is during the first year, this process, it wasn't available to current state employees who may be disabled. That created a lot of issues for folks who were upset that they couldn't access this to move up within state government. We weren't able to change that ourselves, but it was changed in legislation. And starting in July of this year, we were allowed to offer a certificate of disability to someone who was currently employed and that has seen an increase. We've had roughly 1500 people request certificates of disabilities. I think part of what was surprising is what a great opportunity that has become as a referral source for DAR's. Roughly 300 individuals have chosen to get more information and receive VR services, and we are seeing that as a really nice piece of the process. Additionally, I think we finally had our first individual who went from what we call part time wage employment to full time classified, which was one of the intents of the process we developed. So it's nice to begin to see that work. But for Kate and I, we have to remind ourselves some of this might take two, three, four years before we really actually see these things that could be possible in action. And I think the other big surprise there is just how great of a partner our Department of Human Resource Management has been. They recently allowed us to present to 120 hiring managers and we will be a regular part of their monthly recruitment network action meetings. They've bought into our use of windmills training. They advertise it every month and we are co-sponsoring a job accommodation network training in October for them that they will heavily market to state hiring managers. So I think that's been really great. And then the other surprise, it turns out that our division of registered apprenticeship within the Department of Labor and Industry is moving to a new state agency. So we will see what that does. You know, you think things are pretty stable and static in certain ways, but they can change. That's been a surprise. But it's not a good or bad. It just, you know, might be a chance to actually work with more of our partners more directly.   Kate: And David, another surprise that we had was the use of data. We have been doing some trainings with the field and they you know, when you bring numbers involved, people get a little, oh, I don't know if I want to touch this, but what we found was the counselors, the evaluators, the placement, they enjoyed looking at this data. They ate it up. So the use of data as a tool to look at who we're serving, how are we serving them, has been an eye opener. At least it was a surprise for me. Now I'm a vocational evaluator, so I love data and I thought I was, you know, unique. But I'm not you know, everybody is, you know, surprisingly likes that data.   Carol: Yeah.. Well, and definitely how you present it to the field, you know, if you're just like blah, blah, blah, whatever, they really are interested because it's the culmination of their work, you know, so they see what's happening. It really helps to paint that picture and then they can react and respond and do things in a different way in response to that data. So I think that's smart that you guys are doing that. Now. I know you both had talked about shifting the conversation around employment and shifting that whole narrative on barriers to advancement and employment. Talk a little bit about that.   Kate: So one of the things that the counselors are really good at is, is when somebody comes in the door and they say, hey, you know, I need help finding work. But when we look at the definition of what we do, it's getting and but it's also keeping or advancing in your career. So what is that advancement look like? So if you have somebody coming in who I need a job right away, maybe this is where somebody is going to go for a stock clerk. But what about the idea of doing a quick training so that they can get a credential in the Certified logistics associate and then moving from there, maybe when they do that interview, now that they have that credential, maybe they can ask for a little bit of a raise. And what is the next step on that piece? So we've definitely looked at that. How do we make, as David said, the most of the career that you're looking at or the other areas that we've already talked about? Let's look at other areas.   David: One of the things that actually came from one of our offices that they wanted was we've heard more and more about attrition and attrition from application to plan, but also attrition from plan before employment or before successful closure. And we have created a group called Work Wise, which is designed for individuals who have just become employed to meet once a week in the evening, talk about their jobs, have an opportunity with a staff person to talk through issues, challenges. It's been really a powerful group, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how the individuals who choose to participate in a couple of cases did not want to stop going when their case was closed because of how valuable it was to in close to real time talk through things that were happening at work with someone with a VR counseling background. And that has been a really powerful group because it's also given folks to learn from each other and get to that stability and confidence to maybe also look for future opportunities. I know we're getting ready to also hold a salary negotiation training for folks. So again, let's help people think through and have those skills now that they may use now or they may use later when an opportunity to move up comes around. And similarly, we've started a group that we're calling money wise where we've partnered with a local credit union with that hope of how can we help make sure folks maximize their the benefits they choose to take advantage of from an employer. How do we help someone make sure that if there's a 401 match and it's X amount, that they do that much at the very least, Right. Those things that everyone is told, Well, if there's free money from an employer, you take it or if there's tuition assistance or some other thing, maybe there are things to plant some seeds. So someone would continue to move forward.   Carol: I can see how so much of this work that you are doing is so foundational and will be of benefit to, you know, your other colleagues across the country with the things you've uncovered and the things that you are working on, these different classes and groups and all of that. I'm sure other people are going, Gosh, I want to do that too. I think this will be amazing to help plant the seeds across the country. Now, David, I know you were concerned about implementing something that could withstand the test of time. And I know DIF grants are meant it's a demonstration grant. You're trying something out, but you want to also be able to carry forward these ideas into the future. So how are you guys structuring this to make that happen?   David: We really are thinking about sustainability and to Commissioner Hayfield's credit, that's been one of the things that she and Dale Batten have really stressed to us. It's great to do great work in a period of time, but how can we make sure that the things that have the potential to be value add or transformative continue and don't just end the day the funding stops? And we've really thought through many of the activities that we are creating, we are working on from at the beginning. What would this look like when there's no funding? How will we continue these? It's part of our partnership with Valray. We're working to get some of these pieces put into Canvas and set up through that learning management system. But within some of the positions, you know, one of our hopes is that the DHRM VR liaison could become its own full time non restricted position at the end. Similarly, we would hope that for the others, or at least those activities become a part of multiple staff strategically throughout the state. And that's one way we're looking at it.   Kate: And yeah, we're looking at the train, the trainers, also the tools that we're using. One of the pieces for vocational evaluators would be English language acquisition and knowledge. So there are assessments that are out there that can test somebody's English language, which is important for us to know if we're working with individuals and we're trying to place them on the job. So how do we get the tools necessary into the hands of the individuals and trained up for that so that that can be moving forward? So we're being proactive for these individuals that we hope to come into our doors a little bit more often.   Carol: That's excellent. So what do you guys see as your next steps? Where are you going from here? The point you're at right now, what are the next steps?   Kate: So a lot of our programming that we're doing right now is in partnership with adult ed. We see a great marriage between DARS and Adult Ed because Adult Ed works with a lot of individuals with disabilities already. They're adult educators. They can provide a little bit more support for our learners for credential training. They've got different things that are across the state. I'm working with our rehab center, Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitation to really figure out how can we marry these? Right now I'm coordinating all these trainings. Is there a way that the center can provide this? And this gives the center an opportunity to look at a virtual environment? What does this look like? We're not sure what it looks like, but we're giving a try to see for that next piece so that max potential with the employer, can that be run through Wilson so that it is open and able to run after the grant is over.   Carol: So for our listeners that would want to apply for a grant, but they've been afraid to do so. What advice would you give to other people?   David: Don't be afraid to apply for a grant. It is an amazing opportunity to infuse energy and enthusiasm into your workforce. It is a chance to stretch, learn new skills, try new programs and get some great outcomes. If there are things you've wanted to try and you don't necessarily have the budget to do or don't seem to fit a demonstration grant is a phenomenal opportunity, and when I came into this agency under grants and special programs, usually we had to worry about things like a match component. And if you have the chance to apply for a grant where there isn't a match and you are willing to be patient with that work, you can accomplish some great things. You get to know your partners better. You get to see staff flourish and stretch and more importantly, get some really cool outcomes for the clients we serve.   Carol: Love that infuse that energy and enthusiasm. I wrote that down. That was a great. You're like giving a commercial for the RSA DIF Grants, that's awesome.   Kate: One thing I would add on this too is when I first came in eight years ago on the other grant, I was pretty much kind of a newbie in the grant world, and I was a little intimidated with the idea of RSA. But what I have found is, is RSA is there to help us. They want us to succeed. And if you have a solid grant application and know what you want to do, they will help you give you some ideas. They invited other states to meet with you to kind of talk about different things. So they have been very good about sharing knowledge and they want to see us succeed.   Carol: That sounds so great. Well, I am going to definitely tell our listeners like they should reach out to you too, if they've got some questions to reach out to David and Kate, because you all have a lot of very cool stuff cooking, and I'm sure you're willing to talk to others about what you've been doing as they're thinking about maybe applying some of this, even though they may not have a DIF grant, but applying some of the things that you're learning into their own work in their states?   Kate: Absolutely. We're here.   Carol: Excellent. Well, I appreciate you both. Thanks for spending time with us. And I look forward to circling back with you a little bit in a couple more years as time flies on this grant and see where you're coming in at and those good results. So have a great day.   David: Thank you very much.   Kate: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!  

The popular concept of emotional intelligence only begins to scratch the surface of understanding the true nature and power of the human emotion. Emotions can uplift and heal and transform a life or relationship. They can also inflict and become self-destructive; lead us to either our salvation or downfall. Some people believe the emotion plays a central role in human evolution. Why is an energy so powerful and personal often so unpredictable and seemingly hard to manage? A clue is in the word: “emotion” comes from a Latin derivative meaning “energy in motion”. Emotion isn't static; it creates energetic pathways connecting people with themselves, with one another, with their communities, and the universe. The real emotion problem is not emotion itself; it's how we use the most powerful energy naturally generated by our human design. In this new episode of “Current Openings: What the World Doesn't Quite Get Yet”, Aviv Sha har and David Price Francis delve deeper into the nature, mystery, and larger potential of human emotions. The conversation adds a new chapter to the unfolding story of the human predicament.Among their insights:A species guarantees its continuance more through tribal arrangements than just individual DNA. It's the logic of why human emotions are a self - preservation technology.The emotion that evolved in humans engenders the capacity to care, share, and bond — the qualities that nudge and lead us to collaborate and work together.There are dimensions in the universe that need higher human sensitivity and resonance. It's logical the universe would support the emergence of compassionate life that's more like itself than not.Summoning the emotion is engaging the most powerful energy we have access to. It can be overwhelming if not used wisely. The balance is found in living in harmony with the emotion.We're not victims of our emotions; we can elevate our understanding and use the emotions as objects of purpose inside the theater of our experience.Emotional energy can be very potent healing; seeking with our minds to harness the heart-centered energy and move together to a particular purpose, like healing another person.This conversation builds on concepts and insights first explored in The Energy Problem. It is part of the continuing Portals discovery into what is emerging on the frontiers of human experience in this time of profound change. Information about upcoming special events can be found on the Events page. Also visit and subscribe to our YouTube channel.TWEETABLE QUOTES “One way I look at human beings is as having three major channels or pipes for energy. There are three major expressions: energy in, energy out, and we're always in process. So those are the three things I look at in us: we have mental energy; we have emotional energy, whatever that is, and we're going to get into it; and we have physical energy, which is inside the physical energy.” (David)“It's so when there's an empathy flow, there's very much that connection between the two people between whom the energy is flowing, and there's a very interesting difference there between the person whose energy primarily flows about themselves for themselves, which is more where we get these expressions like narcissistic c rage or narcissistic display, and so they're still emotions, but the emotions stay inside that person's field and are held for them, and this is where you get the person who's able to act emotionally.” (David) “So a compass is something that goes 360 degrees. So it's almost like you take the compass and you have your center point, and you can draw a circle, and the idea of real compassion is that it doesn't just go to a person who's your friend, or it doesn't go to a particular cause. But to release suffering in the world, it takes a 360-degree approach, like the sun shining on everybody at once. So that, to me, is very much the seat of that devotional practice, and we're both wearing what appears to be what looks like regulation blue.” (David) “So you can take your emotional fuel and burn it up very rapidly with a bout of hot anger, you can be in the car, and someone comes past you, and you start yelling, and you go into road rage. But then, is that the best use of that fuel? And I think that's a kind of wisdom about the person, so I have the right to it. Well, yes, you do. You have the right to eat coal. You have the right to do many things. With that permission, you can go for it. But just have that pause. Is it really the best thing to do for your life? Or is there a better way to use it?” (David) RESOURCES MENTIONED Portals of Perception WebsiteAviv's LinkedIn Aviv's TwitterAviv's WebsiteEnergy Worlds

Welcome to The Dr. Brian's Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian welcomes Lung Transplant Specialist, Dr. David Weill to the show to discuss how Dr. David is helping patients, patient's families, and transplant teams navigate their transplantation journey to reach optimal outcomes. What is emphysema and what causes it? Is vaping safe? What can we all do to keep our lungs as healthy as possible? Find out in today's episode! If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap Key Takeaways 01:16 – Dr. Brian introduces today's guest, Dr. David Weill, who join the show to share his expertise as a transplant pulmonologist and the top reasons people need a lung transplant 07:08 – What is emphysema and what causes it? 09:26 – A fun fact about our lungs 10:28 – The dangers of vaping and the risk of lung re-transplants 17:55 – Tips for keeping your lungs as healthy as possible 21:04 – Dr. David's book, Exhale 25:44 – Empathy, caring and separating emotion from outcome 28:58 – The decision to transition out of clinical practice 32:00 – Finding common ground among differing personalities 36:24 – Where listeners can connect with Dr. David and find his book 37:39 – Dr. Brian thanks Dr. David for joining the show to share his expertise Tweetable Quotes “One in five patients who are listed for a lung transplant will die on the waiting list. So, there's a real shortage not only in lung, but in the other organs as well.” (04:37) (Dr. David) “A smoking related lung disease, emphysema is a chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Some people may have heard of COPD. That's essentially the same thing.” (07:43) (Dr. David) “There's a vast array of chemicals in a vape and what goes into the lung. But even more than that, it's thermal energy. So, in other words, it produces very high heat in the lung, and the lung is quite sensitive to very high temperatures. The damage can not only come from the chemicals that are contained in the vape oil, but also from the heat that's generated. It's much hotter than cigarette smoke.” (10:52) (Dr. David) “As marijuana increasingly becomes more mainstream in our society, we're seeing more and more research that it's not quite the benign drug that we thought it was maybe early on, mainly because there wasn't much research on it when it was illegal.” (18:19) (Dr. David) “It was very difficult for me to separate how much I cared from accepting an outcome that was not good. And, I don't think I ever really learned how to do that well over the course of my career.” (25:25) (Dr. David) “What I try to do now is coach the teams through everything and try to figure out a way to get on the same page. That's probably the number one value that I can bring to programs now.” (31:46) (Dr. David) Resources Mentioned Dr. David's Website Dr. David's Book Dr. David's Instagram Dr. David's Twitter Dr. David's Facebook Dr. David's LinkedIn DM Dr. Brian your questions and he will respond back with answers⁠ ⁠Dr. Brian's Website⁠ ⁠Dr. Brian's TikTok⁠ ⁠Dr. Brian's Instagram⁠ Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information. Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast

In this episode, Dan connects with retired Navy officer, legendary communicator, speaker, leadership strategist, and coach David Albritton. The founder and CEO of Nineteen88 Strategies, David cut his PR and communications chops at the Pentagon and followed a career track that led to his role as Chief Communications Officer at Exelis. That would have been the career-high mark for most communicators, but not for David. From the pinnacle of the comms world, he made that rare, perhaps unique, jump to running an entire enterprise, ultimately becoming the President of General Motors Defense. Through it all, he saw the value of coaching and mentoring in his life and decided to dedicate his third - and current - career to helping others realize the same.  How did he (and how does he) do it? How do you make the journey from being the PR guy to running a multi-billion-dollar business? Maybe it's how he fostered a learning mindset. Perhaps it's how he recognized when it's important to embrace change. Or it could be that a "Learn-or-Die" mantra is a prerequisite for success. He and Dan explore these and many more lessons from David's career to find some answers.  Listen in and learn … Why communications professionals need to develop business acumen The dynamic nature of communications professionals' role and the significance of continuous learning and growth.  The value of mentorship from a personal and professional perspective. The difference between a small “m” mentor and a large “M” mentor. How the universe recognizes your mentoring efforts and will reward you accordingly. The role of your worst day and how it can be used to push you forward.  The importance of respecting the expertise of others.  The Hole in Your Swing Philosophy and why it's important to address it. Why leaders understand the value of surrounding themselves with smart people.  That sometimes people can see the leader in you before you can see the leader in yourself.  Coaching is a safe place and there is a difference between coaching and mentoring.  The game-changing aspects of coaching on a personal and corporate level.  Some of the amazing resources David used to fuel his growth including, “Business Acumen for Strategic Communicators” by Ron Culp and Matthew W. Ragas.  Notable Quotes: “There have been so many people who have mentored me and didn't even know it.” (4:56) – David “I'm truly one that believes you can get through this life journey alone.” – (5:43) – David “Believing in others and their ability to help you and your ability to help them is what makes us human.” – (7:30) “There's a whole lot of goodness in this country that we don't get to see through the media all the time.” (10:06) – David “What is the story of David Albritton?” – (12:55) – Dan “You can't be a good leader until you've learned how to be a good follower.” – (14:33) – David “A soldier is trained to carry a rifle to fight wars and all those types of things. They're not trained to move a family with a baby that needs diapers and blankets.” – (34:14) – David “I never believed that by myself I was smart enough to do anything.” – (39:48) – David “PR isn't an exact science.” – (40:23) – David “I realized that I couldn't just be a communications person. I had to become more of a business partner.” – (40:54) – David “Just because you have title does not mean you know.” – (44:24) – David “Communications gives us (communicators) license to try and learn everything.” (47:31) -Dan “Then I had a huge left hook thrown at me that knocked me on my butt.” – (56:00) – David “I realized that if I could become a coach and get paid to be a coach, I never have to retire.” – (1:00:22) – David “We all deal with change differently.” – (1:03:40) – David “The job of a coach is to look into your future.” – (1:08:22) – David “It's not so much about who you know but who knows you.” (1:13:07) – David “Go into every situation as prepared as you can be.” (1:14:22) – David “Ask smart questions to people when you don't know things.” – (1:18:32) – David “You have to be known because you are contributing.” – (1:20:27) – Dan “People will stay with you if they feel like they have the opportunity to grow.” – (1:26:39) -David About David J. Albritton, ACC David Albritton, Founder and CEO of Nineteen88 Strategies, is an accomplished ICF-certified executive coach and business leader with over 30 years of diverse leadership experience spanning corporate, nonprofit, and military sectors. From his unique transition as a Chief Communications Officer to a business division chief executive of a Fortune 25 company, to his current role on the board of NASDAQ-listed Embecta Corp., Albritton exemplifies career versatility. His extensive roles, including President at General Motors Defense and VP Communications roles at Amazon Web Services, Exelis, ITT Defense, and United Way of America, reflect his expertise. As a seasoned executive coach, Albritton employs a holistic and authentic coaching framework to empower high-performing executives. His passion lies in enhancing leadership presence, personal branding, and emotional intelligence among others. He is also a Service-Disabled Veteran with degrees from the U.S. Naval Academy, Naval Postgraduate School, and executive education from top universities including Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. Nineteen88 Strategies David Albritton | Linkedin David Albritton - Instagram  David Albritton - Twitter Four Forces Executive Group Dan Nestle Links The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com) Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook Dan Nestle on Twitter Timestamped Summary Introduction to today's guest. 0:00 David's introduction. 1:49 Putting positivity out into the universe. 6:22 How did you get to the mindset you have? 11:49 The mindset of a public relations professional. 17:57 Learning to be a media communicator. 25:09 Rising through the ranks of the military. 29:38 Dealing with the perceptions of the military. 37:22 The common theme of leaders who are not the smartest. 44:48 Becoming a CCO at Exelis. 48:52 The importance of having the right talent. 53:09 Understanding your why and your purpose. 57:40 Being directive as a mentor. 1:02:06 Coaching is about helping people. 1:07:04 The importance of being prepared for every meeting. 1:11:49 The crux of it all. 1:18:56 David's advice for leaders. 1:23:48 David's work with veterans and charitable orgs. 1:27:52 *Notes were created by humans, with some help from Capsho and Otter.ai. 

Welcome to a special episode of the Knomii Podcast: Episode 20! In this episode, Cynthia (LMHC) and Madeline (Co-Active Coach) embark on a unique journey with 11 diverse individuals who open up about their interpretation of self-awareness and its manifestations in their lives.By sharing their introspective experiences, we hope to provide our listeners with a broader understanding of self-awareness, its crucial role in our lives, and how to cultivate it for personal growth and authenticity.In this enlightening episode, you will:Discover the varied ways in which our guests raise their self-awareness in their everyday lives. From mindful practices to nurturing emotional intelligence, their shared wisdom will inspire you to enhance your own consciousness.Explore how heightened self-awareness can allow us to be more true to ourselves. Through our guests' personal stories, you'll gain insights on how self-awareness has empowered them to live authentically and align their actions with their true values and desires.Learn about three practical exercises you can incorporate into your routine to develop your self-awareness. Guided by the reflections of our guests, we'll break down these exercises and demonstrate how they can help you observe and understand your emotions, thoughts, and behaviors better.Join us in this collective exploration and learn to navigate your own personal galaxy with greater self-awareness and authenticity. After all, understanding ourselves is the first step towards meaningful growth and transformation.What We Discussed:(00:00) Introduction: What does self-awareness mean to you?(01:21) Jasmine: Discovering and Accepting All My Parts(02:36) Elizabeth: The Higher Vantage Point(03:01) Milam: Mind, Body, Soul(04:31) Michelle: Underlying Knowing-ness and Being-ness(05:35) Jaclyn: Seeing and Loving Myself(06:26) David: It's a Daily Practice(07:49) Sam: Being True to Myself(09:07) Matthew: Recognition and Understanding(10:11) Maggie: Living Authentically(12:14) Cynthia: Drivers and Gardeners(14:23) Madeline: A Building Block(15:09) 3 Exercises to Increase Your Self-Awareness(19:06) Ending with a QuoteQuotes for Reflection“Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.” Aristotle“The greatest journey is the journey inward.” Eckhart Tolle.“The better you know yourself, the better your relationship with the rest of the world.” Toni Collette.“Self-awareness is the key to unlocking your true potential.” Oprah Winfrey.“Self-awareness is the foundation of emotional intelligence and authentic connection.” Brené Brown“Self-awareness is a starting point of personal growth and lasting change.” Gary ZukavSupport us on Patreon for more tools:For as little as a cup of coffee per month, you help support us so we can support you. It's a win-win. You'll get access to exclusive content, extra tools, and can even get 1:1 coaching sessions as part of your membership.You can become a member by supporting us on Patreon at 2 levels and learn more here: https://www.patreon.com/knomiiWant to get in touch?Go to our website at https://knomii.coach or email us at podcast@knomii.coach or madeline@knomii.coach to request a topic, give feedback, or learn more about our 1:1 sessions.Follow Knomii on

Plague, Invasion, Revival, Refuge  (audio)  David Eells 5/28/23  A US Military camp at Eagles Pass Texas was bringing in and housing Iran's Revolutionary guardsmen. “This is a well-planned effort to take down the United States of America from inside – an active, well-coordinated invasion into the nation.” …General Flynn   General Flynn Shared This: Eagles Pass Texas – Military Camp (Must See Video) – American Media Group (amg-news.com) Eagles Pass Texas has a military camp where they are housing & bringing young adult military aged men, from the river onto white buses, into this facility. “This has been a planned coordinated effort to take down the United States of America from inside. This is an active, well-coordinated invasion into the nation. We have Iran's Revolutionary Guard & QST forces flying into Venezuela & the Venezuelan government is then giving them passports and proper documentation. If you think that fertilizer is not going to be utilized, that ammonium nitrate that can be used as massive bombs.”  (26 tons of ammonium nitrate turned up missing. Tim McVeigh only used 2 tons to blow up the Murrah Building.) …General Flynn There is an invasion of Chinese “Immigrants” flowing over the Southern Border. I believe most of their reasons are false. The liberal DS is touting it as a victory for what? A military takeover of the country. These are mostly military aged men. Former, Current Border Officials Slam Biden Admin For Touting Success Of Illegal Immigration Policies | The Daily Caller  “We're still in the middle of the worst self-inflicted border security crisis in our lifetime, and they're trying to claim victory,” Morgan added.  Border authorities aren't turning away any migrants using the CBP One phone app, one of the Biden administration's legal pathways, to claim asylum at ports of entry, DHS immigration official Blas Nunez Neto told reporters on a phone call Wednesday. ‘These Numbers Are Staggering': Chinese Migrants Continue To Surge Across Southern Border  | The Daily Caller  "Border Patrol encountered 3,182 migrants from China at the U.S.-Mexico border in April alone, according to CBP data.”  (I already shared a smaller portion of this but thought it important to get out to larger UBM so everyone can pray accordingly.)     “Let Me Show You Something”   Dana Coverstone (Notes in blue) 5/19/23 (David's notes in red) https://www.youtube.com/live/Fmmd82K8fQw?feature=share (This revelation seems to be the backlash of the DS against the supporters of the Alliance and the American people in general.)  Preface: Dana said that this dream lasted from April 17th to May 16th, almost a month, almost 30 days, it's been one the longest dreams he's had.    The dream began with me sitting in the top of a very tall tree, looking down on fog and mist that hung over the entire nation. It was covering over Canada and Mexico as well. It did not cover the water, just this nation, only the land. (It appears as a fog but is man-made and controlled. Prevailing winds would remove it.) I can see the physical land covered in fog. It covered Canada and Mexico as well, but it looked like the fog was churning. It was moving. It was staying in place over the United States of America, (Man-made and controlled) but not over Mexico or Canada. It reminded me of a locust swarm that you can see like in a National Geographic photo. (The locusts in Joel 2 were the Assyrian army that was able to take down apostate northern 10 tribes but not the Bride, Jerusalem.) It was just moving effortlessly, but it was also frothing. It was like the steam coming off of hot coffee or hot cocoa or hot tea or something. But what it covered was thick and you cannot see anything below what you were seeing from the top of the fog. (True fog skips dry areas and manifests over damp watery places.) And as I was pondering the moving of the fog, is when the man appeared to me, and I believe the man is Jesus or represents the Holy Spirit at times, but he came out and he simply said, “Let me show you something.” And he grabbed my hand, and we stepped out into the air. Because I was in a tall tree, looking down, I was kind of hanging, you know, like holding on to a limb with my feet just looking at it. I'm thankful that God sees all the things that are going on. He knows what's coming, he knows what's happening. And I just had that sense as I was watching that I was about to be instructed or told some things. We descended down through the fog, we were not flying, it was like we were walking. The fog seemed to be very evil and very intentional. That it appeared to try to reach out and grab me with these eerie ethereal arms. (It is a menace to man and will kill many.) It was almost like the fog was alive. (It is alive to spread disease) It was dark, it was evil, but it was trying to grab hold…   The man led me on until he reached the ground and then he said, “Look up.” When he said that, I realized that the fog was gone, but I could see jets that were flying in all directions and it appeared to be almost 7:00 or 7:30 at night. It was dusk. (How often we have seen this same thing? Chemtrails.) The lights were going off as people were getting ready for bed. Darkness was hitting; it was almost like I could see traffic had stopped and people were home going to bed and to get ready for work the next day. (Poisoned as they slept.)  So I'm watching all these jets that are going back and forth, north, south, east and west, flying in all directions. It was obviously dusk and the lights were going out. And that's when I realized that I heard this loud hissing and every single jet was spraying something out of the exhaust. (Now we would call these things chemtrails. And I've discussed some of that.) And the jets flying north would be going north for a while. Then suddenly turn around and come back and spray the same way. The ones going east would go east for a couple miles and then come back and it was like regional. It wasn't like one jet going all the way north and south, it was not just east and west. It was like this in every state, there were jets flying over in every state, every region, every area, in that sense. And the jets flying east, and west were doing what the ones going north were doing. They kept blanketing the country in whatever it was spraying. The time passed and the jets disappeared. (In A.A. Allen's vision he saw the same thing and then people started dropping dead everywhere in the U.S.) Then I saw people getting up leaving their houses and going to work. So all of this stuff was being done at night. And the sense that I have about it was a whole lot of evil that's going on right here and right now in our world. This spraying was going on at night when no one was aware. No one was watching and no one was awake. Almost as if there was some elite and corporate plan to poison the nation. (It's a Satanic depopulation cult.)  Once again the fog was over Mexico and Canada, but it was not moving anywhere except the United States of America. (Also, I realized that this is probably a real conspiracy, these things that were going on, the things that we're seeing in that regard. And it's all happening at night, so nobody sees them.) People are getting up for school, getting on the buses and going to school. And then the next thing that I see happening is this, I was standing in Times Square watching those jumbotron television screens with a breaking news item of a major outbreak of a new virus. Now, the timeline that I could tell in the dream is late summer, early fall as the news broadcast we're talking about this.   The World Health Organization was laying out guidelines that must be followed regardless of constitutions or national law. (This is to kill the population and make money for the DS pharmaceutical companies.) Those are the two words they used, “regardless of constitutions or national law”. There were military tanks and Hummers, that started patrolling as the announcements were being made. And I said to the man that the jets appeared to be the source of the medical issue.   The man nodded and said, “There's more to see.” And then we suddenly appeared on the southern border. (So here I saw that the news was complicit and almost an accomplice with what was going on and what was being said. Obviously somebody was behind this; it was happening at night. And so who knows if that's the cause (of the disease). All we realize is that there is something sinister happening in our world and it's being allowed. It's being pushed probably by those in power.) Then he said to me, “There's more to see.”    Suddenly I'm on the southern border. I saw an enormous line of volcanoes that seemed to have sprung up overnight and they were just on the border. They covered from the western point of California all the way to Texas. Literally these were volcanos on the border. (HAARP has the ability to awaken volcanoes and possibly to create them over underground lava flows that flow through huge tunnels made on the border by the DS nuclear boring machines. But also a volcano can represent Hell's demons coming out upon the earth to join with the wicked enemies. Rev 9:2-3 And he opened the pit of the abyss; and there went up a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth; and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.)   They were very tall, they shadowed the ground. And I cannot emphasize this enough. It was volcanoes on the border, and they were (shooting) hundreds of miles up into the air. The ground was shaking, seemingly creaking, and the volcanoes trembled, and they started erupting magma and lava. And then suddenly the entire border shook and I saw the volcanoes appear to grow and the ground below them looked like it was torn. Now, like if you've ever seen a tree that gets knocked over in the wind or damaged by a tornado; there was just a little area of the of earth that was open there. Okay, so the volcanoes tip backwards, they're still spewing lava and all these other things. But there was a hole where the volcanoes came up along the entire southern border. (This can only be man-made, like the border itself.)  At that moment all sorts of people dressed like normal migrants came running out and they were sprinting. (This would be in addition to those who have already come across the border and those anarchists and radical muslims already inside the US. And the left wing military faction. It has been reported that millions of migrants are below the border waiting and many are military age men, and also there are many Communist Chinese there to support their DS. MS-13 has been an arm of the DS military too.) They were running as hard and as fast as they possibly could to get into the country. As they ran, they were taking off backpacks and they were pulling out weapons and they were putting them together. There were weapons that can be folded down. They were unfolding and they were pulling them out. They were putting clips in, but they're doing it as they were running. They were running as hard as they could.   The people in the American side were watching the eruptions, watching the magma and the lava and the smoke and the ash cloud and they didn't even notice the people that were running towards them. They pointed to the sky making all sorts of faces and making noises. Almost as if they were watching fireworks, they were just, like “Oh wow! Look at that.” And they pointing over there, and over here and saying things, like, “Look at that!” They were looking up and they did not see any of the people that were rushing towards them. And now the runners were running up and they were shooting. They were teaming up on people, they were storming properties, but they took nothing.   When they went into the homes and the houses, they took nothing, they just shot people. They killed the people. They sprinted on and they were moving with skilled intent and military precision. They would come together to a house, they would go in, and you would see gunfire; they run out, not taking a thing. They were brutal. They showed no mercy. And there were some that carried samurai swords and they were beheading many people along the way. (What I saw was this, that we don't have an immigration issue, we have an invasion going on and what you don't know will kill you. People are looking at the wrong things. People are seeing the whole wrong issue of what's going on out there. Instead of looking at what's really happening and seeing what's really happening and the danger that it is.  We just kind of push it off and think, “Oh, Washington will fix that or whatever.”)   I saw death and destruction. I saw danger. I saw chaos on the border and it was rushing towards us. It was rushing north. This was on purpose, a “dismantling” and this was also on purpose, a “distraction”.    Back at Times Square, the broadcaster was informing citizens that spectacular eruptions on the southern border were getting people out of their homes to watch. So now they're saying, “Hey, hey, folks, you need to go out of your homes and watch these incredible magma fields and watch these incredible volcanic eruptions that are going on. Go outside and watch.” He also encouraged anyone within 100 miles of the border, and that's exactly what he said. He said, “If you live within 100 miles of the border, you need to go outside immediately and see if you can see them from where you are.” (On foot they could not go very far without stealing vehicles from their victims. Maybe 100 miles before the volcanoes were out of view and their attack was discovered and people and the military would take them down.) And I said to the man, that newsman is trying to get people outside so they will be killed and the man nodded. And then he said, “There's more.” (I think all of us know that the news media is complicit with the lies that are coming out of our leadership.)  Suddenly we're standing outside the Capital of Washington, DC. Then I could hear all kinds of noise going on inside the Capitol building. And someone yelling with a bullhorn. (Now look, a bullhorn is just a cheap way to get attention, so if you don't have a sound system or good balance, or stereo or speakers, you use a bullhorn. It's cheap communication.) But these people are talking about taking the country back (Obviously from the Alliance and Trump) and making people listen.   There were screams that seemed very demonic and just wild coming out of humans. It was like growls and screams and cries. Demonic, almost like banshees. And there was a fence outside the Capitol building. They surrounded it. But suddenly police and military came and they tied ropes, like they made loops and threw them up on the tops of the fence, like a noose. And they grabbed the top parts of the fence and they began to pull them down. They were pulling with all their might pulling the fences down. They bent the fences over. They didn't push them out of the way they didn't knock them down. They pulled them down.  (We have been told that military tribunals are being held there at this time. Hence the fence.)  And then just as suddenly, the doors of the Capitol pushed open and the congressmen, congresswomen, senators, faces of people I recognized, people who are in power, leadership, elected officials at the federal level. (Satanists, the head of the dragon devouring the people.) They all came rushing out into the streets and they were jumping and leaping and stepping over those fences. (This could just symbolize that the leftist DC leadership, some under investigation will escape and will join and be behind this invasion against the people. As far as I know they are not meeting in the Capitol anymore.) And they were armed. They were armed with guns and clubs. And they began attacking and beating any citizen that was close. (Symbolizing their abuse of the people.)  They left this extremely bloody trail. And they pursued people, until the people became so exhausted, they dropped from exhaustion, and then they beat them to death. I watched elected officials beat these people to death. (Now I do not think this is what's going to (physically) happen. I think the whole point of it is the people who were there, were the ones that make the laws, the ones who provide for those things out there.) This is horrific because they were beating people to death in the streets and it was getting darker. (Through more demon possession and death.)  It was horrific to the point I said to the man, “Why are our elected officials are doing this to the people?” Well, this time he didn't move, he didn't nod, he didn't move his head at all, but he said, “There's more to see.” And it suddenly became very, very quiet. (Folks, we have laws that are changing and shifting, we have people that believe that men can be pregnant, that men can be women, and women can be men and everything else. And we know better. We absolutely know better. We're starting to see culture believe every single lie that's being pushed out there and then we have new laws are being passed to protect those lies. Think about that.)   The Congress began to beat these people to death. They were attacking ordinary citizens. I saw families taking pictures outside the capital who were just pummelled and beaten down by people and the elected officials who were running, were covered in blood from the people that they had beaten to death. (Meaning they are guilty of the blood of the people.) And they just kept on going, looking for somebody else to attack and beat on. The man didn't move his head when I said, “Why are elected officials doing this to the people?” He didn't move his head at all. He just simply said, “There's more to see.” (Well, obviously, we know what this is. We know the government is corrupt, we know the government is compromised, everything it is and was and it's going to be. It's not to be trusted, it's not going to be a help to us at all.) (And the Alliance has gathered all their crimes to prosecute and in many cases execute them as is going on now. So they are desperately trying to save their lawless lives.)  Continuing with the dream, the difference in what I just heard with the screams for help and the people running was significant. Now everything is quiet. So, I've seen the jets spraying, I've seen the volcanoes erupting and the distraction of the volcanoes going off, and all the people were watching, the people were running out from the border and they were headed out towards anyone they could kill getting to America. And they were headed north, folks. No one was headed South.    Then I was standing on the banks of a river early in the morning. It was early morning; it was quiet and if you're a morning person, you understand there's just a morning feel. There's a small amount of fog that began to dissipate and I can hear frogs croaking in the background. I hear fish jumping in the water. Suddenly, there was no noise at all. It became deathly quiet. I remember it being almost uneasy because it was so quiet. And then the man stood beside me quietly, and he pointed to his head. He did this twice. And he pointed across the river, so he taps on his head, taps near his ear twice and points across the river. So I walked to the edge of the river and I listened as intently as I possibly could, but I could hear nothing. So I began to strain to hear because I knew that the man had pointed twice and tapped his ear twice and making the point that he was telling me to listen.    Finally, I began to hear what sounded like muffled little cries. The fog continue to lift and I can see the sun shining and now I'm looking at a little country church. And it was at the end of this long gravel road. But there were no cars parked near this church. And I could hear people inside that little church. The windows were open and I can hear them crying out. And there was just a wisp of fire, just like if you got a fire that's almost dying. There's a little wisp of a fire that was on the roof of that little church and it's burning. l could see it in the sun. (Fire on the roof represents revival of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Also in  A.A.Allens vision he heard the sounds of singing and rejoicing and there was a people who were spared in the cleft of the rock and apparently in revival.)    It's a little country church and the windows are open and this long gravel road and but no cars. So I immediately got the idea that nobody drove here. (We have dreams of an EMP hitting the US, which would eliminate the vehicles and most of our military. For there to be any success any planned invasion as we are seeing would likely start with an EMP.)  Everybody walked down this long gravel road. They walked down this uneasy gravel road and they came down there with one reason; that reason was to pray. They were crying out. They were repenting, they were calling out names of elected officials. I heard governors' names. I heard senators' names. I heard congressmen's names. I heard names of leaders in this country. I heard those people calling out their names and asking God to expose the corruption in them, asking God that they would repent. They were asking God for conviction to come to their hearts and lives and their mind. They were praying that corruption would be exposed. That was the highlight of it and they were praying in tongues.  Something else that caught my attention, I heard them speaking, specifically in English and in Spanish. I kept hearing certain Spanish words. And they were praying with a passion. It was refreshing and as I walked closer to the building in this dream, I began to see the people inside. They were packed and there was no walking room. These people were packed together and they were praying and they were praying with passion and there was fire in their prayers and they were going, I mean they were going at it. If you have ever been in a Pentecostal prayer time where the focus is on God and God's presence is there, the fire is hot. This is what I'm saying, it was that type of atmosphere.    There's a table stand with a globe, like a little pillar, with a globe, like one of the things you see in the school, and you could spin it. It was standing on a pillar near the pulpit and there were people who laid their hands on that globe and they were praying for the nations. They were calling out for kings and queens and prime ministers and leaders and officials and presidents. They were calling out the leaders of nations. I heard Zelinski's name. I heard Putin's name. I heard King Charles' name. I heard Trudeau's name. I heard the Mexican president's name. I heard different places from all people who were just praying and this whole room was full. Nobody was talking or looking around. They were engaged in prayer the whole time they were there. They were praying intently. They were focused. There was passion, there was fire.   They laid their hands on that globe and they were praying for the nations, and they were praying for those nations by name. And I began to pray on the outside of the window, and the man said to go tell them he was pleased with their passion, but they must not stop. This was an absolute determined cry on God's behalf, to tell the truth. Don't stop praying. Don't stop praying! Don't think it's too bad. It's too ugly. Don't think it is. We've got to keep praying, folks. And then he said this to me, “Prayer is the most effective way to push back the darkness that is both here and is coming.” (Nobody has to tell us it's going to get worse, we know that it is.)   After he said, “Prayer is the most effective way to push back, the darkness is both here and coming,” He then breathed towards me. Now I'm next to the building looking at him. The building is behind me, the church is behind me with a little fire on the top. He breathed towards me, and it went past me and it felt like a hot breeze on a hot August summer day. It was hot! I mean, it was hot to the touch. This hot breath goes by me. It went through me and even in the dream, and even at night it felt like the hair of my arm was standing up, because of what had just gone past me, the Breath of God! And when it got to the building, it set the entire church on fire. There was fire there before, but when he breathed on it, that's when the fire erupted and it was like the burning bush that was not consumed and even looking in the windows, you can see the fire was inside the building. So they've been praying with passion, passion, passion, a little bit of fire on top. The fire of what Jesus breathed towards us, or towards that church of people praying, it erupted! It was like when you hear that WOOSH sound? That was what it was like.  And people were praying with fire and they were praying loud and they got louder and louder and louder and louder! It was exciting! I have a lot of different emotions when I'm having the dreams. In the dream, it was like, “This is good! This is powerful, Lord! I knew this is what I want for my life!” I turned to look at the man now instead, because I had been looking at the building that had just erupted into flame and burning. I turned to look at the man, but he was gone. But I heard his words, and he said, “I am with you church. I am with you. And there is more to do. Verily, verily, I say unto you.” When he tapped his ear twice and pointed, I knew he was saying, “Church, listen, you need to pray.”       Overcomers and the Evil Army   Tianna Fire 5/21/23 (David's note in red)  I saw all the local brethren together worshiping, and they were all in the light and unity in Christ. I then saw an enormous army of evil spirits of all different kinds, hatred, murder, perversion, unbelief, witchcraft, unforgiveness and so very many more evil spirits. The evil spirits had an enormous variety of weapons and tactics. (What is also true is that these hordes of demons prefer to assault others in a host of wicked humans.)  There were waves of these evil spirits and there were so many it heavily outnumbered the brethren. (Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, And increasest thine indignation upon me: Changes and warfare are with me. Psa 27:2-3 When evil-doers came upon me to eat up my flesh, Even mine adversaries and my foes, they stumbled and fell. 3 Though a host should encamp against me, My heart shall not fear: Though war should rise against me, Even then will I be confident.)  The evil army got closer and closer to the brethren, but there was this invisible wall and roof of protection around them. The evil spirits couldn't get into this individual house of protection. (Psa 91:1-3 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust. 3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.)   But the evil spirits could see them (but were not able to touch them), and the evil spirits had such anger and unforgiveness to the brethren (Because they cannot accept that they are forever separated from God and their judgement is pending.) They were jealous of the brethren, because they could see that God loves them and God's grace on them and they could see Jesus in them. The evil spirits hate all of this and are pure evil.   The evil spirits tried to send fear to the brethren by making scary faces (Sometimes seen in the faces of their hosts. vain imaginations, dread, apprehension of evil.) and by trying to get them to doubt God, or by trying to make them think and feel themselves to be unworthy and unholy. (Rejection.) The evil spirits would try to intimidate the brethren by sending lies to cause fear from outside this invisible protection, but these unclean spirits were unsuccessful, because the brethren cast down all unholy thoughts, fears, rejection, doubt, unbelief, etc. (2Co 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh 4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds), 5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ; 6 and being in readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience shall be made full.)    The enemy could not do anything (faith in the promises bind the enemy) because the brethren ignored them. The brethren did not entertain or accept those thoughts and feelings. Instead, they kept their focus on, and being in Jesus, so they were completely protected, and the enemy was defeated. (NENT Eph 4:27 neither give place to the devil. Jas 4:7 Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you.)      End Time Dream: Man-Child In Training  Samuel Fire 5/25/23 (David's notes in red) I dreamed it was the end-times era. Everything was dry and dusty, and orange colored. (Orange often represents warning, danger or anarchy.) There were no trees or grass, and only dirt. (The wilderness)  Many people were missing and very few people inhabited the city. (The coming destruction will cause many to flee from the cities and to flee from man.) Many homes were vacant. Cars were left scattered everywhere. (People won't be driving their cars, possibly because of EMP, or because of the fuel shortages, loss of jobs, sickness from the JAB, businesses are closing, banks foreclosing, etc.)   Everything was collecting dirt and dust and had a thick layer on anything that had not been used. I was dressed in old clothes, with a rag for a scarf and an old baseball cap with ski-goggles to keep my eyes protected, and I was carrying a backpack. (Luke 17:28 Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: 30 after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and let him that is in the field likewise not return back.)  And Heb 12:1-2 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.)  I went out because we needed food, even though my wife was very adept at making a big meal from very little ingredients. We now were running very low, and I reluctantly had to go out to source goods. My wife and son were safe and didn't need to go with me. So, I got ready in the early hours before sunrise, so I had as much time as possible to travel and get back home. (We all want to be ready before the Son/sun rises in the man-child, so we don't miss what God is going to do.)   I walked for a very long time, checking many buildings to see whether there were any groceries left in cupboards. I didn't find much, only a couple of can of beans. Along my journey I met a man. He was very cautious. His dress was like the biblical times but also wearing a jacket and a wide brimmed hat. He had a long beard and wore sunglasses. He didn't say very much but he was very friendly. (I asked the Lord who the bearded man is, and my finger was on a list of “sons” from Luk 3:24-38. I think the bearded man represents another brother in Christ, more mature in the ways of Jesus.)  The man led me to a shop, but it was not a typical store. There was barely anything, just a few shelves with hardly anything on them. The shop looked like it was a front for something else. The man then asked me what I was doing out here. I replied, “I'm out here for food. We rely on God for everything.” He said, “Hmm, okay.” (Act 7:11 Now there came a famine over all Egypt and Canaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.)  He then asked one unusual question, “Do you have anything that someone could use to identify you? I said, “I have my wallet.” He said, “Okay.” Then suddenly he said, “Now quickly, get down and pray in silence and don't move.” Then shortly after, a man with a bicycle entered the store. I saw to my side that this other man just stood there staring at me. Then he slowly moved through the store while walking his bike going past me. I saw him open up a secret door and he went through it and closed it behind him.(Hidden in plain sight)  The bearded man and I, got up from kneeling and I said, “There is a secret door here. There must be a secret base behind it.” The man said, “Yes.” I said, “But the door has no locks or password combo.” He said, “Yes, only those led by God will know where it is and would be able to come in.” (Rev 3:8 I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name.)  We went in, and it looked like a small group of maybe 11 or 12 people were in there talking. (12 is the number for the elect, 11 is the number of the elect without Judas.) They looked like they were leaders of refuges and had gathered for a meeting. The man I was with talked to them, and then he came back to me.  He sat me down at a desk and handed me a few sheets with interesting drawings. The drawings were about things required to give up, so you could be able to continue with God and if you had passed all the requirements on the first sheet, you could go on to the next sheet. After all these lists, the group deemed it good to be able to lead a group in a refuge. (1Ti 1:12 I thank him that enabled me, even Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he counted me faithful, appointing me to his service;  Mat 19:29 And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.)   One of the refuge leaders started explaining about all these things, but I forget what they were, except for one that I remembered. As he went down the list, I called out and said, “This one is about lust.” He said, “Yeah. That's the one where so many fall away.” I said, “Wow, okay.” (Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.) I then asked the group, “What if someone turns up on the opposition; you know, a bad guy?” They said, “God will lead us and tell us when, where, and what to do.” (1Jn 4:1-2 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.) Later, after we all had eaten, cleaned up and got into newer clothes, they handed me a bag of canned food to take home.   Then a couple, a man and woman, came in. They appeared to be nice and friendly and were dressed in modern clothes. They said they were just like us. I told the whole group what I thought about them, plainly stating, “They're government. So, what do you do about them?” The man then said, “How did you know that?” I said, “They clearly aren't like us and are pretending to get in.” (Gal 2:4 and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:) The bearded man said, “God will tell us what to do. We are not worried about anything. If we have time, we can gather items and leave. If not, we leave with the shirt of our back and run. God has always protected us.”  Then the impersonating couple reached for a radio or phone and pressed a button. Suddenly I could hear that there were multiple cars driving up to the area. Everyone got up and rushed about and grabbed stuff and ran in different ways out of the base.  I went with the bearded man. We were running through streets and over fences etc. We were being chased by a car and were being shot at by the passenger in the car with a pistol. I became separated from the bearded man, and I ran to the right up an alley. When I came out the other side, I saw a white Mercedes in very good condition. I thought, “I wonder if this is unlocked and if I can use it?” I tried, and it opened. I exclaimed, “Praise God!” I jumped in turned it on first go and it sounded so smooth and powerful, and I drove off. (White vehicle represents power to the sanctified ones.)  I saw the bearded man from before; he was running along the fence line, so I drove to pick him up. Just afterwards the bad guy's car came again and started shooting at us again. I drove the car as the Spirit led me, taking corners like a pro race driver and they couldn't hit us or keep up with our speed. (Rom 8:12-14 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.)  We had to go onto a main road to continue, and then an armoured tank, completely black in color, came up on the horizon towards us.  I thought, “Oh wow, That tank could blow us apart.” The bearded man said, “Never fear.” (Psa 56:2-4 Mine enemies would swallow me up all the day long; For they are many that fight proudly against me. 3 What time I am afraid, I will put my trust in thee. 4 In God (I will praise his word), In God have I put my trust, I will not be afraid; What can flesh do unto me?)  I immediately turned right, and I drove through fences and through yards and into an alley, and then behind many houses. We kept going past many larger homes with huge yards. Strangely, no one was home in any of the places. (The cities are prime targets for invaders and are under the most judgment from God according to the Word. People have left their homes and belongings and fled into the wilderness.) We then saw a drainage area on the side of the road for when if it rained too much and the area flooded. We drove into it and stopped. We both felt calm and knew no one could see us here.   Just then, in the natural, my phone made a noise and I woke up. (Be ready to answer the call to follow Jesus!)      UBM Wilderness Refuge  Tianna Fire 5/24/23 (David's notes in red) I dreamed that there were many people that wanted to go to the UBM refuge, but to get there they had to go through this difficult and dangerous wilderness (This is to test whether a person is ready to enter a refuge or needs more chastening in the wilderness. To the Israelites the wilderness was a filter to keep the wicked from entering the Promised Land. NENT Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye by the narrow gate: for wide and spacious is the way that leadeth unto the destruction, and many are they that enter thereby. 14 Because narrow the gate, and straitened the way that leadeth unto the life, and few are they that find it.)  There was a certain city, and on the outskirts of this city was a giant grassy terrain, and it went on further than you could see. It eventually led to snow and dessert areas also. There were many hills and mountains with caves too. But once you left the city, it was just this wilderness that you saw and no civilization. (Leaving the city of Babylon/Egypt of this world, would be trials and tribulations of the wilderness.)  Many people would come to this area to start their journey to UBM, and mostly people would come in groups, to try and help each other get there. Some people would get lost and were never found again, others would die from animal attacks or from the weather, while some people would return back to the city and only a few people ever made it to the UBM refuge. (Many people have moved here and have been tried and tested to see if they should be part of this holy Body of Christ. Some people never made it here. Several people who have come, have failed in their love tests and have not had a true desire for holiness and submission to Christ. 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.)  I was coming from far away to get to this place, so I flew on a plane to this city, and then I was transported by a vehicle that was like a roller coaster to get to the starting point of the journey in the wilderness. (This represents the mountains and valleys.) The rollercoaster was very high off the ground, and it seemed very unstable, and it was completely packed with many people. (Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain.)  The rollercoaster travelled fast through the city to the outskirts of the city and suddenly, the rollercoaster started going in circles so fast, and many people fell off the rollercoaster as the seatbelts and everything else was very unstable. (Rollercoaster rides have been used to type many up and down and back and forth trials of life and truly that is where many are headed.)  I held onto the seat with one hand and I almost slipped off, but I asked God for help and God supernaturally kept me from falling off, because naturally I should have fallen off. (NENT Rom 10:13 for, Whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.) The rollercoaster landed on the ground, and there were less than half of us left that were originally on the rollercoaster. (The great falling away.) We were now at the starting point of the journey to the UBM refuge.  We were advised to stick together, and we were given a map on how to get there. (A unity in one corporate Body of Christ.) The whole wilderness area was a gigantic size with different types of areas. (Around the World.)   We stayed together in a group the first day, following what the map said. Towards the evening we found a very run-down, tiny, ancient house. It was completely empty, and the ground inside was dirt, but it protected us from the weather and wild animals. (1Tim 6:8: but having food and covering we shall be therewith content.) We all slept on the floor in there, and heard many wolves howling outside.  I had a dream where God clearly said to me "The map they gave you was made by man and it is not the right instructions to get to UBM”.(This is like many are taught the Bible with carnal interpretations and wont arrive in the Kingdom.) I woke up and knew that I couldn't go any further with what the map said, and I prayed heavily, and God told me that the real way is the complete opposite direction to what the map said. He showed me the next step about where to go next. (Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will counsel thee with mine eye upon thee. Pro 3:5-6 Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding: 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he will direct thy paths.)  When morning came, I told everyone what God showed me and only five of the people believed me. Everyone else continued to follow the map. Now it was me and five others and we stopped to seek God constantly to get the right directions. (What seemingly is true may be ear-tickling doctrine. All your ways need to be checked with Holy Spirit according to His Word.)   During the day we went through desert and rocky areas, and we ended in grassy terrain. It was now late evening, and we were to start going into desert terrain, but then God stopped me and said, "Don't continue anymore today, stay here tonight and continue tomorrow".  I obeyed and only two others believed me and stayed with me. The other three continued alone into the desert. One of the people that stayed with me said that if those others don't have faith in God to protect them and keep warm, they will freeze overnight. (Ecc 4:9-12 9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their labor. 10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow; but woe to him that is alone when he falleth, and hath not another to lift him up. 11 Again, if two lie together, then they have warmth; but how can one be warm alone? 12 And if a man prevail against him that is alone, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.)   We continued journeying through all different terrains, and a few times God led us into caves to keep warm, and one time he made the resources for a fireplace to appear. My faith kept increasing in the dream, and I got to a point where I believed that God would keep me warm even without a fire and God would protect me from wild animals. (God can do supernatural things through our faith in the promises of Christ.) One night, some hyenas came around us intimidating us, and one of the people with me was fearful and didn't believe God would protect him, so he was taken out. However, the remaining person and I believed, and we were kept safe, and the animals couldn't touch us.   It felt like weeks, maybe months of us walking through this wilderness, but God said we were almost there. It was hot one day, and the other person I was with became weary in his soul, and started becoming weak in spirit and gave into doubt and unbelief, and he died.   I was alone. I kept praying and going on where the Lord said to, and I eventually made it to the UBM area. I was greeted by Chuc, Winnie and Lakeisha. I gave them all a big hug and felt so much love and care from them. Winnie and Lakeisha helped clean me up and gave me clothes and food and they were all so kind. I went and sat on the couch next to the two women. Chuc was on another couch. In the dream he had a British accent and then he started to share his testimony about how he got to UBM. I woke up.      Angels Guide to Refuges Eve Brast - 7/15/08 (David's notes in red) ... It was dark outside and it seemed like we spent the night there. Suddenly, the next morning, late in the morning, a young man with short brown hair burst through the front glass door and braced it open with his foot and said very excitedly, "David said it's time to go to the wilderness!" We (our UBM study group) all hurried out into the parking lot with the kids and a supersonic noise got my attention. I thought it was a jet plane flying overhead. As I looked up into the sky there were no clouds and the sky was blue about 11:00 AM. I saw an arrow-shaped vapor trail just clearing the mall on my right, high up in the sky and flying overhead toward the left horizon. It went all the way around the world and then I watched it come up from the horizon ahead of me and I followed it overhead and turned around to watch it head down the horizon behind me, but it stopped 30 degrees up from the horizon and faced us. Then we realized it wasn't a jet but an angel. He had golden, curled hair and a simple white robe with a thin gold rope around his waist. He motioned with his right arm and forefinger to follow him in that direction. So, we all started to walk in that direction. Then I woke up.   (The arrow-shaped vapor trail cleared the roof of the mall from the east, heading west down past the horizon, around the world and came up the northern horizon and headed over our heads toward the southern horizon, then stopped 30 degrees from the southern horizon. Our UBM group then all began to walk toward the direction of the south, following the angel.) Our UBM group was located in the Dallas / Fort Worth area in Texas. (When the people of God left Egypt to go to the wilderness refuge from the beast they went south first and then went north to their Promised Land) I felt in the dream that this angel was showing multiple groups of people at the same time around the world where their refuges were.)   Note from David: It was an angel of God that guided Israel into the wilderness place of safety from the beast kingdom (Exo.12:37; 13:20; 14:19). I believe God's angels will do this for UBM and saints all over the world. This way only the right people will be there.  Also, there is another type of angel, or messenger, that will guide God's people to their wilderness refuge during the tribulation. Satellites are commonly called angels nowadays. Sky Angel is a satellite network. There is a road angel satellite navigation system. The military has had a program since 2004 called  Autonomous Nanosatellite Guardian Evaluating Local Space, or A.N.G.E.L.S., to watch over the U.S. There is also Digital Angel which has designed microchips readable from satellite for the beast system. Three angels in Rev.14:6-9 preach the Gospel, warn of judgment, the fall of Babylon, and the mark of the beast, from mid heaven... and all of this before the middle of the tribulation.   We believe the Lord would have us use satellite angels to reach the majority of the population of Earth with this same message and will guide some to the wilderness refuge. Satellites are also commonly called "birds". {Rev.12:13} And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man [child]. {14} And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. See also Davids Will Preach The Word From Heaven. Refuge Ministry to the World     America, a Nation of Refugees Vincent Xavier - 7/10/08 Americans will be roaming through the streets. The Lord has shown this writer that America will be known as a NATION OF REFUGEES. People will be roaming to and fro from one city to another, seeking shelter and rest. The Lord said what we saw in New Orleans after the hurricane called Katrina hit will become a national reality. Just as those people fled from their destroyed city to other cities, so shall it be in the days ahead. Because of the several nuclear detonations, natural disasters and other terrorist-related incidents in major cities across America on the same day, millions will be wandering from sea to shining sea looking for a place of safety and rest. During this time of wandering people will become infected as biological and chemical weapons are released upon the population. Great food shortages and water shortages are going to cause rioting and looting in an unprecedented way. Great violence will emerge and a strong spirit of brutality will manifest. KATRINA IS THE PICTURE multiplied a thousand times. Las Vegas, Nevada will be a GHOST TOWN. People will be wandering through the emptied and mostly destroyed casinos and city shopping malls. They will fondle gambling "chips" that possess no value. Las Vegas shall surely be a haunt of every unclean bird and jackals will reside in that place. Martial law will be imposed within the nation. A time of complete desperation will hit. Those who barked like dogs in so-called revivals will whimper at the devastation and all their foolery will amount to nothing. Those who refused to repent, but went after the GIFTS, will come away empty-handed and their short-lived healings will be met with eternal burnings because their hearts were led astray into great deception, as the Scriptures said they would. The burning heart of repentance can no longer be seen in America. The cry for repentance is falling upon deaf ears and the masses are being led into the slaughter. The day of slaughter began on 9/11; it has escalated into a worldwide epidemic as hundreds of thousands are being destroyed daily. The prophets are fools (those in the harlot church)! The people are mad upon their idols! A sword against the treasury of the United States has been unsheathed. I will strike their treasures and take them away to another land. I will transfer the wealth of the nation to another. It is over! The collapse is sure! The time of debate is ended! America will be a nation of refugees. Those who hate shall meet with hatred! Those who mocked shall be a derision! Those who refused to obey shall be punished! Terror shall take hold of a nation that has forsaken the LAW OF THE LORD! SAINTS, find your way to the cities of refuge now! Begin to build your lives in those places. Go to those places that uphold the Laws of the Lord. You will be protected. Build cities that will welcome and provide for survivors who are sent from the Lord. These will be seeking Christ Jesus from true hearts. Establish Godly leaders within the cities of refuge for the transfer will come to a nation within a nation! Fill up the storehouses! Many will be led by the Spirit to these safe places they never knew of. The coastlands will perish! Seek refuge now! It is late! Let us not linger anymore! David: The real good news is that revival will spring forth wherever the elect are and people will know the value of Psa 91. Psa 91:1-16 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust. 3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence. 4 He will cover thee with his pinions, And under his wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.  7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked. 9 For thou, O Jehovah, art my refuge! Thou hast made the Most High thy habitation; 10 There shall no evil befall thee, Neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent. 11 For he will give his angels charge over thee, To keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, Lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.  13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the serpent shalt thou trample under foot. 14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. 15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble: I will deliver him, and honor him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him, And show him my salvation.

David Colebatch, CEO at Tidal.cloud, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how Tidal is demystifying cloud migration strategy. David and Corey discuss the pros and cons of a hybrid cloud migration strategy, and David reveals the approach that Tidal takes to ensure they're setting their customers up for success. David also discusses the human element to cloud migration initiatives, and how to overcome roadblocks when handling the people side of migrations. Corey and David also expand on all the capabilities cloud migration unlocks, and David explains how that translates to a distributed product team approach.About DavidDavid is the CEO & Founder of Tidal.  Tidal is empowering businesses to transform from traditional on-premises IT-run organizations to lean-agile-cloud powered machines.Links Referenced: Tidal.cloud: https://tidal.cloud Twitter: https://twitter.com/dcolebatch LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidcolebatch/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey:  LANs of the late 90's and early 2000's were a magical place to learn about computers, hang out with your friends, and do cool stuff like share files, run websites & game servers, and occasionally bring the whole thing down with some ill-conceived software or network configuration. That's not how things are done anymore, but what if we could have a 90's style LAN experience along with the best parts of the 21st century internet? (Most of which are very hard to find these days.) Tailscale thinks we can, and I'm inclined to agree. With Tailscale I can use trusted identity providers like Google, or Okta, or GitHub to authenticate users, and automatically generate & rotate keys to authenticate devices I've added to my network. I can also share access to those devices with friends and teammates, or tag devices to give my team broader access. And that's the magic of it, your data is protected by the simple yet powerful social dynamics of small groups that you trust.Try now - it's free forever for personal use. I've been using it for almost two years personally, and am moderately annoyed that they haven't attempted to charge me for what's become an essential-to-my-workflow service.Corey: Have you listened to the new season of Traceroute yet? Traceroute is a tech podcast that peels back the layers of the stack to tell the real, human stories about how the inner workings of our digital world affect our lives in ways you may have never thought of before. Listen and follow Traceroute on your favorite platform, or learn more about Traceroute at origins.dev. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while at The Duckbill Group, I like to branch out and try something a little bit different before getting smashed vocally, right back into the box I find myself in for a variety of excellent reasons. One of these areas has been for a while, the idea of working with migrations on getting folks into cloud. There's a lot of cost impact to it, but there's also a lot of things that I generally consider to be unpleasant nonsense with which to deal. My guest today sort of takes a different philosophy to this. David Colebatch is the CEO and founder of Tidal.cloud. David, thank you for joining me.David: Oh, thanks for having me, Corey.Corey: Now, cloud migrations tend to be something that is, I want to say contentious, and for good reason. You have all the cloud providers who are ranting that cloud is the way and the light, as if they've just found religion, and yeah, the fact that it basically turns into a money-printing machine for them has nothing to do with their newfound advocacy for this approach. Now, I do understand that we all have positions that we come from that shape our perspective. You do run and did found a cloud migration company. What's your take on it? Is this as big as the cloud providers say it is, is it overhyped, or is it underhyped?David: I think it's probably in the middle of this stage of the hype cycle. But the reason that that Tidal exists and why I founded it was that many customers were approaching cloud just for cloud's sake, you know, and they were looking at cloud as a place to park VMs. And our philosophy as software engineers at Tidal is that customers were missing out on all the new capabilities that cloud provided, you know, cloud is a new paradigm in compute. And so, our take on it is the customer should not look at cloud as a place to migrate to, but rather as a place to transform to and embrace all the new capabilities that are on offer.Corey: I've been saying for a while that if you sit there and run a total cost analysis for going down the path of a cloud migration, you will not save money in the short term, call it five years or whatnot. So, if you're migrating to the cloud specifically to save money, in the common case, it should be for a capability story, not because it's going to save you money off of what you're currently doing in the data center. Agree, disagree, or it's complicated?David: It's complicated, but you're right in one case: you need to work backwards from the outcomes, I think that much is pretty simple and clear, but many teams overlook that. And again, when you look at cloud for the sake of cloud, you generally do overlook that. But when we work with customers and they log into to our platform, what we find is that they're often articulating their intent as I want to improve business agility, I want to improve staff productivity, and it's less about just moving workloads to the cloud. Anyone can run a VM somewhere. And so, I think, when we work backwards from what the customer is trying to achieve and we look at TCO holistically, not just about how much a computer costs to run and operate in a colo facility, look at it holistically from a staff productivity perspective as well, then the business case for cloud becomes very profound.Corey: I've been saying for a while that I can make a good-faith Total Cost of Ownership analysis—or TCO analysis—in either direction, so tell me what outcome you want and I can come up with a very good-faith effort answer that gives you what you want. I don't think I've seen too many TCO analyses, especially around cloud migrations, that were not justification exercises. They were very rarely open questions. It was, we've decided what we want to do. Now, let's build a business case to do that thing. Agree, disagree?David: [laugh]. Agree. I've seen that. Yeah, we again, like to understand the true picture of total cost of ownership on-premises first, and many customers, depending on who you're engaging with, but on the IT side, might actually shield a few of those costs or they might just not know them. And I'm talking about things like in the facilities, insurance costs, utility bills, and things like that, that might not bubble up.We need to get all those cards on the table in order to conduct a full TCO analysis. And then in the cloud side, we need to look at multiple scenarios per workload. So, we want to understand that lift-and-shift base case that many people come from, but also that transformative migration case which says, I might be running in a server-ful architecture today on-premises, but based on the source code and database analysis that we've done, we can see an easy lift to think like Lambda and serverless frameworks on the cloud. And so, when you take that transformative approach, you may spend some time upfront doing that transformation, or if it's tight fit, it might be really easy; it might actually be faster than reverse-engineering firewall rules and doing a lift-and-shift. And in that case, you can save up to 97% in annual OPEX, which is a huge savings, of course.Corey: You said the magic words, lift-and-shift, which means all right, the gloves come off. Let's have this conversation.David: Oh yeah.Corey: I work on AWS bills for a living. Cloud cost and architecture are fundamentally the same thing, and when I start looking at a company's monthly bill, I can start to see the architectural patterns emerge with no further information than what's shown in the exploded bill view, at least at a high level. It starts to be indicative of different things. And you can generally tell, on some level, when companies have come from a data center environment or at least a data center mentality, in what they've built. And I've talked to a number of companies where they have effectively completely lifted their data center into the cloud and the only real change that they have gotten in terms of value for it has been that machines are going down a lot less because the hard drive failed and they were really bad at replacing hard drives.Now, for companies in that position who have that challenge, yeah, the value is there and it's apparent because I promise, whoever you are, the cloud providers are better at replacing failed hard drives than you are, full stop. And if that's the value proposition you want, great, but it also feels like that is just scratching the surface of what the benefit of cloud providers can be.David: Absolutely. I mean, we look at cloud as a way to unlock new ways of working and it's totally aligned with the new distributed product team approach that many enterprises are pursuing. You know, the rise of Agile and DevOps has sort of facilitated this movement away from single choke points of IT service delivery, like we used to with ITIL, into much more modern ways of working. And so, I imagine when you're looking at those cloud bills, you might see a whole host of workloads centered into one or two accounts, like they've just replicated a data center into one or two accounts and lifted-and-shifted a bunch of EC2 to it. And yeah, that is not the most ideal architectural pattern to follow in the cloud. If you're working backwards from, “I want to improve staff productivity; I want to improve business agility,” you need to do things like limit your blast radius and have a multi-account strategy that supports that.Corey: We've seen this as well and born-in-the-cloud companies, too, because for a long time, that was AWS's guidance of put everything in a single AWS account. The end. And then just, you know, get good with IAM issues. Like, “Well okay, I found that developer environments impacted production.” Then, “Sounds like a skill issue.”Great, but then you also have things that cannot be allocated, like service quotas. When you have something in development run amok and exhaust service quotas for number of EC2 get instance info requests, suddenly, load balancers don't anymore and auto-scaling is kind of aspirational when everything explodes on you. It's the right path, but very often, people got there through following the best advice that AWS offers. I am in the middle of a migration myself from the quote-unquote, “Legacy” AWS account, I built a bunch of stuff in 2016 into its own dedicated account and honestly, it's about as challenging as some data center moves that I've done historically.David: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the cobwebs build up over time and you have a lot of dependencies on services, you completely forget about.Corey: “How do I move this S3 bucket to another account?” “That's the neat part. You don't.”David: [laugh]. We shouldn't just limit that to AWS. I mean, the other cloud providers have similar issues to deal with through their older cloud adoption frameworks which are now playing out. And some of those guidance points were due to technology limitations in the underlying platform, too, and so you know, at the time, that was the best way to go to cloud. But as I think customers have demanded more agility and more control over their blast radiuses and enabling self-service teams, this has forced everyone to sort of come along and embrace this multi-account strategy. Where the challenge is, with a lot of our enterprise clients, and especially in the public—Corey: Embrace it or you'll be made to embrace it.David: Yeah [laugh]. We see with both our enterprise accounts that were early adopters, they certainly have that issue with too much concentration on one or two accounts, but public sector accounts as well, which we're seeing a lot of momentum in, they come from a place where they're heavily regulated and follow heavy architectural standards which dictate some of these things. And so, in order for those clients to be successful in the cloud, they have to have real leadership and real champions that are able to, sort of, forge through some of those issues and break outside of the mold in order to demonstrate success.Corey: On some level, when I see a lift that failed to shift, it's an intentional choice in some cases where the company has decided to improve their data center environment at the cost of their cloud environment. And it feels, on some level, like it's a transitional step, but then it's almost a question that I always have is, was this the grand plan? So, I guess my question for you is, when you see a company that has some workloads in a data center and some living in the cloud provider in what most people call hybrid, is that outcome intentional or is it accidental, where midway through, they realize that some workloads are super hard to migrate? They have a mainframe and there is no AWS/400 available for their use, so they're going to give up halfway, declare victory, and yep we're hybrid now. How did they get there?David: I think it's intentional, quite often that they see hybrid cloud as a stepping stone to going full cloud. And this just comes down to project scoping and governance, too. So, many leaders will draw a ring around the workloads that are easy to migrate and they'll claim success at the end of that and move on to another job quite often. But the visionary leaders will actually chart a path to course that has a hundred percent adoption, full data center closure, off the mainframe, off AS/400, you know, refactored usually, but they'll chart that course at a rate of change that the organization can accept. Because, you know, cloud being a new paradigm, cloud requiring new ways of working, they can't just ram that kind of change through in their enterprise in one or two years; they really need to make sure that it's being absorbed and adopted and embraced by the teams and not alienating the whole company as they go through. And so, I do see it as intentional, but that stepping stone that many companies take is also an okay thing in my mind.Corey: And to be clear, I should bound what I'm saying from the perspective that I'm talking about this from a platonic ideal perspective. I am not suggesting that, “Oh, this thing that you built at your company is crappy,” I mean, any more so than anything else is. I've never yet seen any infrastructure that the people running it would step back and say, “This is amazing and perfect.” Everyone thinks it's a burning dumpster fire of sadness and regret and I'm not entirely sure that they're wrong.I mean, designing an architecture—cloud or otherwise—on a whiteboard is relatively straightforward, for a junior employee, even. The problem is most people don't get to start from scratch and build that thing. There's existing stuff that needs to be migrated in and most of us don't get the luxury of taking two years of downtime for that service while we wind up rebuilding it from scratch. So, it's one of those how do you rebuild a car without taking it off the highway to do it type of questions.David: Well, you want to have a phased migration approach, quite often. Your business can't stop and start because you're doing a migration, so you want to build momentum with the early adopters that are easy to migrate and don't require big interruptions to business. And then for those mission-critical workloads that do need to migrate—and you mentioned mainframe and AS/400 before—they might be areas where you introduce, like, a strangler fig pattern, you know, draw a ring around it, start replicating some services into cloud, and then phase that migration over a year or two, depending on your timeline and scale. And so, we're very much pragmatic in this business that we want to make sure we're doing everything for the right reasons, for the business-led reasons, and fitting in migrations around business objectives and strategies is super critical to success.Corey: What I'm curious about is when we talk about migrations, in fact, when I invited you on the show, and it was like, well, Tidal migrations—one thing I love about calling it that for the domain, in some cases, as well as other things is, “Huh, says right in the tin what it is. Awesome.” But it's migrations, which I assumed to be, you know, from data centers into cloud. That's great. But then you've got the question of, is that what your work looks like? Is it migrations in the other direction? Is cloud repatriation a thing that people are doing, and no one bothered to actually ever bother to demonstrate that to me? Is cloud to cloud? What are you migrating from and to?David: Well, that's great. And we actually dropped migrations from the name.Corey: Oh, my apologies. Events, once again, outpace me.David: Tidal.cloud is our URL and essentially, Corey, the business of migration is something that's only becoming increasingly frequent. Customers are not just migrating from on-premises data centers to cloud, they're also migrating in between their cloud accounts like you are, but also from one cloud provider to another. And our business hypothesis here Tidal is that that innovation cycle is continuing to shrink, and so whereas when I was in the data center automation business, we used to have a 10 and 15-year investment cycle, now customers have embraced continuous delivery of their applications and so there's this huge shift of investment horizons, bringing it down to an almost an annual event for many of the applications that we touch.Corey: You are in fact correct. Tidal.cloud does have a banner at the top that says, “Tidal Migrations is now Tidal.” Yep, you're correct, not that I'm here to like incorrect you on the name of your own company, for God's sake. That's a new level of mansplaining I dare not delve into.But it does say, “Migration made modern,” right at the top, which is great because there's a sense that I've always had that lift-and-shift is poo-pooed as a bad approach to migrating, but I've done it other ways and it becomes disastrous. I've always liked the approach of take something in a data center, migrated into cloud, in the process, changing as few things as possible, and then just get it stable and working there, and step two becomes the transformation because if you try and transform while it moves, yeah, that gets you a little closer to outcome in theory, but when things don't work right—and their computers; let's not kid ourselves, nothing works right—it's a question now of was it my changes? Is it the cloud environment? Is there an unknown dependency that assumes things in the data center that are not true in cloud? It becomes very hard to track down the why of these things.David: There's no one-size-fits-all for migration. It's why we have the seven-hour assessment capabilities. You know, if one application, like you've just talked about, that one application might be better to lift and shift than modernize, there might be real business reasons for doing that. But what we've seen over the years is the customers generally have one migration budget. Now, IT gets one migration budget and they get to end a job in a lift-and-shift scenario and the business says, “Well, what changed? Nothing, my apps still run the same, I don't notice any new capabilities.” And IT then says, “Yeah, yeah. Now, we need the modernization budget to finish.” And they said, “No, no, no. We've just given you a bunch of money. You're not getting any more.”And so, that's what quite often the migrate as a lift-and-shift kind of stalls and you see an exodus of talent out of those organizations, people leave to go on to the next migration project elsewhere and that organization really didn't embrace any of the cloud-native changes that were required. We'd like to really say that—and you saw this on our header—that migrations made modern, we'd like to dispel the myth that you can either migrate or modernize. It's really not an either/or. There's a full spectrum of our methods, like replatform, and refactor, rehosting, in the middle there. And when we work backwards from customers, we want to understand their core objectives for going to cloud, their intent, their, “Why cloud?”We want to understand how it aligns on the cloud value framework, so business agility gains, staff productivity gains, total cost of ownership is important, of course. And then for each of their application workloads, choose the right 6R based on those business outcomes. And it can seem like a complicated or comprehensive problem, but if you automate it like we do, you can get very consistent results very quickly. And that's really the accelerant that we give customers to accelerate their migration to cloud.Corey: One thing that I've noticed—and maybe this makes me cynical—but when I see companies doing lift-and-shift, often they will neglect to do the shift portion of it. Because there's a compelling reason to do a migration to get out of a data center and into a cloud, and often that is a data center contract expiry coming up. But companies are very rarely going to invest the time, energy, and money—which all become the same thing, effectively, at company scale—in refactoring existing applications if they're not already broken.I see that all the time in my work, I don't make recommendations to folks very often have the form, “Oh, just migrate this entire application to serverless and you'll save 80% or more on it.” And it's, “That's great, but that's 18 months' worth of work and it doesn't actually get us closer to our business milestones, so yeah, we're not going to do that.” Cost directly is very rarely a compelling reason to make a migration, but when you're rebuilding something for business purposes, factoring cost concerns into it seems to be a much better way to gain adoption and traction of those ideals.David: Yeah, yeah. Counterpoint on that, when we look at a portfolio of applications, like, hundreds or thousands of applications in an enterprise and we do this type of analysis on them with the customers, what we've learned is that they may refactor and replatform ten, 20% of their workloads, they may rehost 40%, and they'll often turn off the rest, retire them, not migrate them. And many of our enterprise customers that we've spoken to have gone through rationalizations as they've gone to cloud and saved, you know, 59%, just turned off that 59% of an infrastructure, and the apps that they do end up refactoring and modernizing are the ones where either there's a very easy path for them, like, the code is super compatible and written in a way that's fitting with Lambda and so they've done that, or they've got, like you said, business needs coming up. So, the business is already investigating making some changes to the application, they already want to embrace CI/CD pipelines where they haven't today. And for those applications, what we see teams doing is actually building new in the cloud and then managing that as an application migration, like, cutting over that.But in the scheme of an entire portfolio of hundreds or thousands of applications that might be 5, 10, 20% of the portfolio. It won't be all of them. And that's what we say, there's a full spectrum of migration methods and we want to make sure we apply the right ones to each workload.Corey: Yeah, I want to be clear that there are different personas. I find that most of my customers tend to fall into two buckets. The first is that you have the born-in-the-cloud SaaS companies, and that's the world I come from, where you have basically one workload that's 80% of your application spend, your revenue, et cetera. Like, they are not a customer, but take Datadog as an example. Like, the Datadog monitoring application suite would be a good example of this, and then you have a bunch of longtail stuff.Conversely, you've got a large enterprise that might be spending $100 million or so every year, but their largest single application is a couple million bucks because it just has thousands upon thousands of them. And at that point, it becomes much more of a central IT planning problem. In one of those use cases, spending significant effort refactoring and rebuilding things, from an optimization perspective, can pay dividends. In other cases, it tends not to work in quite the same way, just because the economies of scale aren't there. Do you find that most of your customers fall into one of those two buckets? Do you take a different view of the world? How do you see the market?David: Same view, we do. Enterprise customers are generally the areas that we find the most fit with, the ISVs, you know, that have one or two primary applications. Born in the cloud, they don't need to do portfolio assessments. And with the enterprise customers, the central IT bit used to be a blocker and impediment for cloud. We're increasingly seeing more interest from central IT who is trying to lead their organization to cloud, which is great, that's a great sign.But in the past, it had been more of a business-led conversation where one business unit within an enterprise wants to branch away from central IT, and so they take it upon themselves to do an application assessment, they take it upon themselves to get their own cloud accounts, you know, a shadow IT move, in a way. And that had a lot of success because the business would always tie it back to business outcomes that they were trying to achieve. Now, into IT, doing mass migration, mass portfolio assessment, this does require them to engage deeply with the business areas and sometimes we're seeing that happening for the very first time. There's no longer IT at the end of a chain, but rather it's a joint partnership as they go to cloud, which is really cool to see.Corey: When I go to Tidal.cloud, you have a gif—yes, that's how it's pronounced, I'm not going to take debates on that matter—but you have a gif at the top of your site a showing a command line tool that runs an analyze command on an application. What are you looking at to establish an application or workload's suitability for migration? Because I have opinions on this, but you have, you know, a business around this and I'm not going to assume that my strongly-held opinions informed by several weeks of work are going to trump, you know, the thing that your entire company is built around.David: Thanks, Corey. Yeah, you're looking at our command-line utilities there. It's an accompanying part of our product suite. We have a web application and the command-line utilities are what customers use behind their firewall to analyze their applications. The data points that we look at are infrastructure, as you can imagine, you might plug into VMware and discover VMs that are running, we'll look for non-x86 workloads on the network.So, infrastructure is sort of bread and butter; everyone does that. Where Tidal differentiates is going up the stack, analyzing source code, analyzing database technologies, and looking at the schema usage within your on-premises database, for example, which features and functionality are using, and then how that fits to more cloud-native database offerings. And then we'll look at the technology age as well. And when you combine all of those technology factors together, we sort of form a view of what the migration difficulty to cloud will be on various migration outcomes, be it rehost, replatform, or refactor.The other thing that we add there is on the business side and the business intent. So, we want to understand from leadership what their intent is with cloud, and there's some levers they pull in the Tidal platform there. But then we also want to understand from each application owner how they think about their applications, what the value of those applications are to them and what their forward-looking plans are. We capture all these things in our tool, we then run it through our recommendation engine, and that's how we come up with a bespoke migration plan per client.Corey: One of the challenges I have in the cost arena around a lot of these tools that oh, we're going to look at your various infrastructure-as-code situation and see what that's going to cost you for a given change. It's like, sure, that that's not hard from a baseline of I want to spin up ten more EC2 instances. Yes, that is the tricky part of cloud economics known as basic arithmetic. The problem where I see is that okay, and then they're going to run Kubernetes, which has no sense of zone affinity, so it's going to wind up putting nondeterministic amounts of traffic across a AZ boundary and that's going to spike data transfer in some use cases, but none of these tools have any conception as to what those workloads look like. Now, that's a purely cost perspective, but that does have architectural approaches. Do you factor things like that in when you move up the stack?David: Absolutely. And really understanding on a Tidal inventory basis, understanding what the intent is of each of those workloads really does help you, from a cloud economics basics, to work out how much is reasonable in terms of cloud costs. So, for example, in Tidal, if you're doing app assessment, you're capturing any revenue to business that it generates, any staff productivity that it creates. And so, you've got the income side of that application workload. When you map that to on-premises costs and then later to cloud costs, your FinOps job becomes a lot easier because now you have the business context of those workloads too.Corey: So, one of the things that I have found is that you can judge the actual success of a project by how many people who work at the company claimed credit for it on LinkedIn, whereas conversely, when things don't work out super well, it's sort of a crickets moment. I'm curious as to your perspective on whether there is such a thing as a migration failure, or is it simply a, “Oh, we're going to iterate on this in a new direction. We've replaced a failing part, which turned out, from our perspective, to be our CIO, but we have a new one who's going to move us into cloud in the proper time and space.” We go through more of those things than some people do underwear. My God. But is there such a thing as a failed cloud migration?David: There absolutely is. And I get your point that success has many fathers. You know, when clients have brought us in for that success party at the end, you don't recognize everybody there. But you know, failure can be, you know, you've missed on time, scope, or budget, and by those measures, I think 76% of IT projects were failing in 2018, when we ran those numbers.So absolutely, by those metrics, there are failed cloud migrations. What tends to happen is people claim success on the workloads that did migrate. They may then kick it out into a new project scope, the organizational change bit. So, we've had many customers who viewed the cloud migration as a lift-and-shift exercise and failed to execute on the organizational change and then months later realized, oh, that is important in order for my day two operations to really hum, and so then have embarked on that under a separate initiative. So, there's certainly a lot of rescoping that goes on with these things.And what we like to make sure we're teaching people—and we do this for free—is those lessons learned and pitfalls with cloud early on because we don't want to see all those headlines of failed projects under that; we want to make sure that customers are armed with here are the things you should consider to execute on as you go to cloud.Corey: Do you ever run an analysis on a workload when a customer is asking, “So, how should we go about migrating this?” And your answer is, “You should absolutely not?”David: Well, all applications can go to cloud, it's just a matter of how much elbow grease you want to put into it. And so, the absolutely not call comes from when that app doesn't provide any utility to the business or maybe it has a useful life of six more months and the data center is going to be alive for seven. So, that's when those types of judgment calls come in. Other times we've seen, you know, there's already a replacement initiative underway by the business. IT wasn't aware of it, but through our process and methodology, they engaged with the business for the first time and learned about it. And so, that helps them to avoid needing to migrate workloads because the business is already moving to Salesforce, for example.Corey: I imagine you're also relatively used to the sinking realization that customers often have when they're used to data center thinking and you ask them a question, like, “How many gigabytes a month does your application server send back and forth to your database server?” And their response, very reasonably, is, “Why on earth would I know the answer to that quest—oh, God. You mean, that's how it bills?” It's the sense of everything is different in cloud, sometimes, subtly, sometimes massively. But it's a different way of thinking.So, I guess my last real big question for you on this is, moving technology is relatively straightforward but migrating people is very challenging. How do you find that the people and the processes that have grown up in data center environments with people whose identities are inextricably linked the technology they work on, being faced with the idea of it is now time to pick up and move these things into an environment where things that were incredibly valuable guardrails in a data center environment no longer serve you well?David: Yeah. The people side of cloud migration is the more challenging part. It's actually one of the reasons we introduced a service offering around people change management. The general strategy is sort of the Kotter change process of creating that guiding coalition, the people who want to do something different, get them outside of IT, reporting out to the executives directly, so they're unencumbered by the traditional processes. And once they start to demonstrate some success of a new way of working, a new paradigm, you kind of sell that back into the organization in order to drive that change.It's getting a lot easier to position that organizational change aspects with customers. There's enough horror stories out there of people that did not take that approach. And quite rightly. I mean, it's tough to imagine, as a customer, like, if I'm applying my legacy processes to cloud migration, why would I expect to get anything but a legacy result? You know, and most of the customers that we talk to that are going to cloud want a transformational outcome, they want more business agility and greater staff productivity, and so they need to recognize that that doesn't come without change to people and change the organization. It doesn't mean you have to change the people out individually, but skilling the way we work, those types of things, are really important to invest in and I'd say even more so than the technology aspects of any cloud migration.Corey: David, I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me about something that is, I'd say near and dear to my heart, except I'm trying desperately not to deal with it more than I absolutely have to. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?David: Sure. I mean, tidalcloud.com is our website. I'm also on Twitter @dcolebatch. I like to tweet there a little bit, increasingly these days. I'm not on Bluesky yet, though, so I won't see you there. And also on LinkedIn, of course.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:29:57]. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.David: Thanks, Corey. Great to be here.Corey: David Colebatch, CEO and founder of Tidal.cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that you will then struggle to migrate to a different podcast platform of your choice.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

When a business is sold, it can create a lot of anxiety and challenges for both the existing team and the new owners. Communication is critical to making the transition as smooth as possible so the business can continue and grow. Today's guest, David Nemes, is an entrepreneur and an active business investor who's been part of several acquisitions.On this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, David and host Ken Trupke discuss the challenges that come with the transition to new ownership, and David talks about his experience working on bank closures.Timestamps(00:59): David's background(03:01): Ensuring a smooth transition(04:38): Communicating before the deal's done(05:58): Mistakes David's made and what he's learned(07:51): Building internal support(13:13): How David got into bank closures(17:38): Explaining loss share(20:19): Things that work and don't work(23:44): David's recommended reading and listening(27:10): Ways to connect with David Nemes Episode Quotes“Walking in on Day One, you're not the smartest person in the room.” (David)“It's always an awkward kind of moment because there's fear. So, you've just got to really be warm and tell them it's going to be okay and we're going to do the right things.” (David)“One of the things that I've learned is to have some industry expertise that you can bring in with you, whether that's just someone advising or the old owner sticking around. But you need a plan for leadership transition.” (David)“I like to say I'm a mile wide and inch deep on a lot of things, and I'm a quick learner. But there's nuance to every industry.” (David)“In my experience, coming into companies as an advisor, it's helpful to build some kind of internal champions – people you can count on to tell you what's happening. They don't necessarily have a position, but they've been around long enough, or they've just got the respect of the people.” (Ken)“We're not going to be successful doing nothing. We are going to be successful doing something, even if it's not exactly right. At least we're trying.” (David)“The phrase I like to use is, ‘We can't steer a parked car,' so let's at least get the car moving.” (Ken)“You have to first understand how you think and what drives you and your behaviors.  You have to be comfortable in your own skin about who you are and how you operate and understand that not everyone's going to operate there, no matter what you try to force them to do.” (David)“There's capital, there's opportunity, and there's operators. I am not an operator. I help operators reach success.” (David) Recommended Reading and ListeningInsights from Oak Tree Capital by Howard MarksWarren Buffet's annual letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholdersThe Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else by Hernando De SotoConnect with David NemesDavid Nemes on LinkedIn  

Pursuing unqualified prospects is a waste of time. Lately, I've also been on a bit of a kick in terms of commitment versus interest. If you're interested in the possibility of working with us, that's very different than if you're committed to getting the results you want in your business and working with us to do it. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the pursuit of unqualified prospects. Welcome, Jay! Jay: Hey, it's so great to be here again, David, and I always love the topics that we get into. I think usually, or mostly, especially in my case, I'm in pursuit of just any prospect and I don't give a lot of thought to are they qualified, are they not? It's like, just send me all the leads and all sort through it, and I'm sure that I'm wasting a lot of time doing that. David: It's funny, isn't it? It's like just looking for warm bodies. Anybody who can fog a mirror, right? And to some extent, that's part of every process. Because we really don't know who's qualified and who's not until and unless we have a qualification procedure in place to figure that out, or if we just sort of get good at it from having conversations and hearing what people say. So I think you're right. I think no one really sets out to pursue unqualified prospects, and yet, to some extent, we all do it every day. Jay: Yeah, exactly. I will tell you that as a company, we've done some things. when we first started using Google ads, it was crazy. I mean, we were getting so many responses. And then after taking all of these leads and calls, we realized that 90% of them were not good. Because, our key words that we were using for Google were bringing us the wrong type of client that we couldn't help and that we couldn't close. So once we just did something as simple as figure out our keywords, wow, that saved us a lot of time and money. David: It really helps to dial it in, doesn't it? When you're more specific and it, you're right. It could be the difference of one additional parameter, one additional thing that you're saying in the messaging that you're putting out there. Because all of that's going to contribute to the type of people who respond to your ads when we're talking about leading with advertising. Jay: Yeah, exactly. The other thing we found is a seasonality to it, and you and I have talked about seasonality a lot when it comes to sales. But we've found that the same keywords don't work the same all year long, that there's different motivations that things change. And so, we're kind of starting to keep track of that now for the first time, and I'm excited. You know, we probably won't reap the benefits of that until next year, but that's how far ahead we have to be, to know when and how to start pivoting and adjusting. David: Yeah, I can see exactly how that could be the case. And it's something that you discover through doing it, right? Through iterations. You try different things and you say, Hey, this isn't working. This used to work. What's the reason for that? So a lot of it too is sometimes talking to people. One of the things that we've done for a long time is when people make a decision not to work with us, or sometimes, if someone expresses interest in working with us, but then doesn't follow through, we'll reach out to those people and find out. "Hey, it looks like you were thinking about contacting us. Looks like you were maybe thinking about scheduling a strategy session with us. You didn't do it. What was it that held you back? And the answers you get from that can be extremely helpful in terms of finding out what might also be holding other people back. Jay: Yeah. That is so powerful and I think sometimes people are afraid, because they've turned you down and they're afraid that if you make another phone call you're going to be bothersome to them. But if you do it in the right approach,

Very often, inferior competitors play the price card: Jay: I get that question. "Well, I talk to your competitor and they're less expensive than you are." Well, now I have to find a way to let them know, yeah, we are more expensive, but there's a reason. And it's because we're very good at what we do and we have certain guarantees that they don't, or whatever it is. David: Yeah. A pack of cigarettes is cheaper too, but that can also kill you. No, that would not be a good answer. But sometimes it's what we feel like saying... David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host, Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the idea of losing business to inferior competitors. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's good to be here, David, and this is one of the most frustrating things for me when I know that I have a better product, I have better customer service. I know this because I've heard complaints about my competitor and all of these things, but you lose it to them for whatever reason. Well, that can really ruin your day , and it can also affect your business. David: It really can. And I think just this idea and even the word inferior competitors, probably anyone in business who has competitors that you've run into has had this experience. And you're like, I can't believe they went with that person instead of us. You know that what you have is so much better and offers so much more and is going to transform the person in positive ways so much more than they will if they go the other way. And yet they go in that direction. It can be extremely frustrating. So when we think about this idea of how to avoid this, how to avoid losing business to inferior competitors, there are a number of different things that we can do. But I think it starts with recognizing, first of all, that they're out there. That there are a number of people out there who are not as good as we are. And then it's about, okay, how am I going to be able to communicate that to my prospects in a way that doesn't make me sound like I'm bitter, or make me sound like I'm frustrated? And that can be the challenge sometimes. Jay: Yeah, I agree. I have people regularly ask me, what's the difference between you and your competitor? And I find that you have to be very careful with this question. And the tactic that I've chosen is to say, here's the value that we can bring you. Here's what I know we can do. And I try and s teer it back or say, you know, I haven't worked with them directly, but let me tell you this is where we shine. And I know we're going to bring you success in this way because it's always been weird to me that somebody would believe what I say about my competitor. I'm the worst person to ask. It's like in politics when somebody runs an attack ad, why would you believe the guy who's, you know what I mean? It 's the worst person to ask, but we put so much faith and trust in it. David: Right. And I think, going exactly along that line, one of the things that we've tried to do when people come to us and they ask us about it, is we'll basically say to them, well, listen, anything I say is obviously going to be biased. Why don't I fill you in on some of what our customers have said about that topic? And then we've got videos and we've got audios, and we've got written testimonials of customers who have worked with us and we'll point them to that. And allow them to hear what other people just like them are saying about the products and services we offer. Sometimes there are situations where a customer will talk about a bad experience they had with one of our competitors and the reason they came to us, and so sometimes we'll share those stories as well. Say, well, listen, I can't tell you this personally. I've never personally dealt with this other company. But you know, we've had a number of customers who were dealing with them in the past, and here are the reasons they gave for switching over to us.

Perhaps the most serious predicament facing the human race may be easy to spot by its toxic and destructive effects on our life and the planet, but why is its core cause so hard to see?It's a critical puzzle to ponder, which means it's also an excellent topic for our special series “Current Openings — What the W orld Doesn't Quite Get Yet.” This collaboration with David Price Francis, author, spiritual teacher, and co-founder of Energy Worlds, explores what's appearing in the flow of newly emerging intelligence and evoluti onary possibility.The predicament: environmental and cultural crises that seriously threaten life on this planet; a level of disharmony, discord, and disconnect that would have been hard to imagine even a few years ago.In this conversation, David and Avi v Shahar explore the predicament's origins in what is known as the brain/body conundrum. Our brain, a marvel of engineering and power, continually seeks stimulation and excitement, often in the extreme. And often to the detriment of our bodies, which by de sign are naturally tuned to the regenerative rhythms and energies of the planet.Imagine the predicament when human lives governed by the brain's drive for constant stimulation — rather than the body's natural connection to planetary regeneration — are mul tiplied on a global scale.But... there is a promise in the predicament, and a way out of the conundrum, as David and Aviv reveal. Among their insights:There is a way out of our predicament because we have the superpower of conscious choiceThere's nothing wrong with our brain; our brain is not to blame. It's the programs that have gotten into itThe myth of the Selfish Gene, which is a fallacy, because we are wired to survive individually through collective survival. We were sold on the theology of self-interest, which is not trueHow did we get to a situation where the most profitable industry on the planet is weapons of war, the second is drugs, and only the third is food?This conversation is part of the continuing Portals discovery into what is emerging on the frontiers of human experience in this time of profound change. Information about upcoming special events can be found on the Events page. Also visit and subscribe to our YouTube channel. TWEETABLE QUOTES“Well, the human race is in a predicament. There's a lot to add up about that and then to come alongside it, as we discussed in our bridging conversat ion with the human proposition, because if we only stay with the predicament, then we are caught up in a kind of potentially circling argument.” ( David )“If we don't bring humility, we're going to have a rude awakening because the picture of life and livi ng is a shape-shifting , dynamic, evolving story, and we're likely to wake up tomorrow morning surprised, unless we bring humility. But if we refuse to be confident in stepping forward to engage with life fully, we may already be frozen and petrified by the challenges of living. So there is that ambidextrous dance of being true and authentic to the challenge the way we embrace it and at the same time being light about it.” ( David )“So I think of that in terms of the human's predicament now is how governed we are by precedent and what has been, looking to the future and how not to be entirely governed by past precedents.” ( David )“So, even if we look at our brain, part of our brain is in harmony because it's automatically working with our systems. But then we have our, I like to call it, "voluntary brain" that is busily doing other things.” ( David )“It all takes the time that it takes according to the planet's laws, and there are actual planetary laws that govern behavior here, and part of being in harmony is knowing about timing and things, so we might want to have an instant result. But any farmer can say... any person who works with the land can say, “No, it doesn't work that way,” and it's the same with working with our brain and working with our body. If we've had years of having certain programs put in place, we can't expect to just change the programming overnight. We need to then say, "Oh, this is like a serious, lighthearted but serious endeavor, and that means multiple applications.” It's not just a one-off.” ( David )RESOURCES MENTIONED Portals of Perception WebsiteAviv's LinkedIn Aviv's TwitterAviv's Websitehttps://energyworlds.com/https://portalsofperception.org/portals/current-openings-series/ 

 Home About Updates Services Books Text Search More Refuge and Provision for Man-child and Bride (Audio) David Eells - 2/19/23 Money Out of the Fishes Mouth Samuel Fire - 11/8/22 (David's notes in red) I dreamed that my wife, Tiannah, and I were in a hotel. (A type of a Church body as in Eph. 2:19-22 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.) Looking down out of the window from the top story, to the parking lot, there were heaps of cars lined up and ours was at the very back. (The top story represents maturity and dwelling in heavenly places in Christ.  Samuel's vehicle being at the back of the parking lot represents humility and that “the last shall be first.”) We were at this hotel for a fishing competition. (Jesus said in Mat. 4:19 And he saith unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you fishers of men.) We had a very large blue bag, but no fishing rods. (This represents spiritually catching people through heavenly methods.) We left really early in the morning for the competition, before everyone else left. (This represents the first fruits going out into the wilderness on the morning of the first day.)  The scene changed and we were in the back of a boat, out in the middle of open water and no land within sight. There were two other men in the front. I never saw their faces or spoke to them in the dream. They were looking out towards the water fishing, but without rods. (These two men represents either the Man-child reformers) I saw in the water what looked like a soccer ball shaped jellyfish, with a beak like a parrot. (Representing the faction whose mouths are predatory and unruly.) I reached out to grab the jellyfish but Tiannah said, “Don't. They have stingers?” (Representing factious people with spirits of rejection who are “Porcupine christians. They will sting you if you try to corner them because of their fragile egos represented by the “Jellyfish”. Pro. 6:16-19 There are six things which Jehovah hateth; Yea, seven which are an abomination unto him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood; 18 A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren.) So, I didn't touch it. I felt this was distracting us from catching the competition prize fish. (Representing the factions distraction which is always an attempt to Destroy those coming to Christ.) Not long after, the grand prize fish just swam up next to me, and without any effort I just picked it up and brought it into the boat. We looked into the fish's mouth and it had a giant gold coin, a little bigger than the size of the palm of my hand. We had won the competition! (Mat. 17:27 But, lest we cause them to stumble, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a shekel: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.) In the next scene we were back at the hotel, looking out the window, from the upper room, and many other cars started driving into the parking lot. They came back late after us. I saw them unpacking their cars and I saw they had a big blue bag like ours, however, our bag was branded, but theirs was the cheap imitation of ours. I said to Tiannah “Look if we hadn't gone early in the morning, they would have gotten the prize fish instead of us”. (These others with the false imitation blue bags represent those trapped in apostate religion. They are “strangers” in bondage to their legalistic doctrines that won't catch fish for the Kingdom. Mat. 17:24-26  And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received the half-shekel came to Peter, and said, Doth not your teacher pay the half-shekel? 25 He saith, Yea. And when he came into the house, Jesus spake first to him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? the kings of the earth, from whom do they receive toll or tribute? from their sons, or from strangers? 26 And when he said, From strangers, Jesus said unto him, Therefore the sons are free.) We found out that we had won the competition and that we had also won a fancy expensive house and they wanted us to go visit it. So, we drove straight away to the house, we got there at around sunset. The house was a giant, 3 story, fancy house located on the very top of a mountain. You could walk around on the decks and have a 360 view and see everything all around, all the way to the beach and it was overlooking everyone else. (This is the House of David on top of Mt. Zion, the Bride. The Bride is Jesus' prize and He will rule over Mt. Zion through the Man-child reformers. Rev. 21:2  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.) The house was located on the Gold Coast, Queensland. (This is a play on words regarding the “gold coin” from the “prize catch” and Queensland is representing Mt. Zion, the Bride.) The house had many rooms and the best quality of everything. It had patios, skylights and fancy furniture and the top-of-the-line appliances and built-in fireplaces, pool tables, a pool. It had all the fancy expensive things. It had a stone fireplace which we really liked. It had automatic blinds, every bedroom had a king bed and a spa in every bathroom. It was a multi-million-dollar home.  After seeing the house Tiannah and I looked at each other and I said “Let's sell it for the Kingdom, we don't need it”. We only want a tiny, simple home”. Tiannah agreed. The lady showing us the house suggested that we rent it out and we said “No. We don't personally need or want all that money”. Then, I woke up. (Jesus said in Luke 18:22 And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, … sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And Mat. 13:44-46 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found, and hid; and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a merchant seeking goodly pearls: 46 and having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.) The Bride's “Mansion” Anna Stewart - 2-10-23 (David's notes in red) (Eve is being used in this dream to represent the Bride Body because of her name. Eve was the bride of the first Adam and she represents the corporate Bride of the last Adam, Jesus, the Father of the new creation. 1Co. 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. This is why we must be born again from above, spirit, soul, and body.) I dreamed that local UBM was gathered at Eve's house for fellowship. (Heb. 10:19-25 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 and having a great priest over the house of God; 22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water, 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised: 24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works; 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.)  I was surprised to see that now she lived in an enormous mansion. (This is a corporate mansion for the corporate Bride and speaks of the beauty of the natural life of the holy people.  God is going to bless the Bride in the times to come and there will be a great abundance of provision during the wilderness Tribulation so that the needs of His elect can be met.) I thought that it was my childhood house that someone had “flipped” and remodeled; however, now, it was nothing like my old, small, childhood home. (This is Speaking of growing to maturity from the house of the child to the house of the Bride. Isa. 54:1-3 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes. 3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Each room was huge with just a few quality furnishings in each room, giving it a spacious, beautiful feel. I walked through the house, admiring each room, getting more excited as I discovered more. There was a huge master bathroom on the left of the house but Eve's personal master bath was on the right. (Sanctification is large in the lives of those in the first fruits Bride body. This is their only focus who wash on the right.) There was an entire spa in her bathroom. I remember thinking, “This is a lot of space for one person, but if anyone deserves it, it's Eve.” (The Bride has gone through much crucifixion at the hands of the factious Judas' to come to this sanctification.) (Isa. 54:11-17 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will set thy stones in fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make thy pinnacles of rubies, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy border of precious stones. 13 And all thy children shall be taught of Jehovah; and great shall be the peace of thy children. 14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression, for thou shalt not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near thee.  15 Behold, they may gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall because of thee. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness which is of me, saith Jehovah.) That was the end of the dream. An Abundance of Provision for the Bride (1)  Tiannah Fire - 12/15/22 (David's notes in red) I dreamt that Samuel and I were in a restaurant. (Partaking of the spiritual food of the unleavened bread of the Word of God.) Inside, there was a machine and, when you pressed a button, it would create a random number.  If someone got the correct numbers, they would win money. (Each member of Christ has been given a measure of faith. When applied, they are gifted with spiritual gifting's for their Kingdom service. 1Co 12:4-11 (NENT and elsewhere) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all the things in all. 7 But to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10  and to another workings of powers; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits: to another kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues; 11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally even as he willeth.)   Everyone in the restaurant had a go with this machine, and then I had a go, and it landed on the exact winning numbers for me. The money prize was $1,550,000. (Ask Father God and you shall receive. Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. Strong's Greek #155 is: aitéma: From aiteo; a thing asked or (abstractly) an asking -- petition, request, required.' ) (Est 5:3  Then said the king unto her, What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be given thee even to the half of the kingdom.)  We were very excited, and wanted to entrust it to David Eells to give to the Body of Christ for the Kingdom of Heaven. (The David Man-childs are apostolic like their Lord. We are going back to the Book of Acts communal living and equality. Act 4:34  For neither was there among them any that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35  and laid them at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto each, according as any one had need.) Eph 4:12  for the perfecting of the saints, unto a work of ministry, unto a building of the body of the Christ. And 1Co 12:12  For even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also the Christ.   David was living in a special, secret place, and because we hadn't been there before, we didn't know where to go. (They are hidden in the Psa 91, secret place of the Most High, which is abiding in Christ. I am being used in this dream to represent the David Man-child reformers because of my name. Like the first disciples, they didnt know the way to go.) Joh 14:4-6,  4  And whither I go, ye know the way. 5  Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? 6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.  (Jesus manifested in the David Man-child reformers will show God's elect the mystery in Col 1:26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints, 27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.) So, we prayed and then we were translated to a place of refuge. There were mostly trees and some grassy open areas and a beach in the surrounding area. We went over into this big yellowish colored building that was an open living plan, like a library. (The building in the refuge is yellow because it is the color of the sun/Son. It is like a library because those in the building study the book of Jesus who is the Word made flesh.)  There were different sections. There was a section which had many racks of clothing for men and women and shoes and hats and everything for covering, there was so many different options. (The clothing represents doing the works of Christ.  But need I say that men should wear men's clothing and women, women's clothing. Rom 13:14  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.  Rev 19:8  And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. There were items for all needs. (Father supplies all, when we store up our treasures in Heaven [by meeting the needs of others and the harvest]. Php 4:19  And my God shall supply your every need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.)  (Mat.6:25-33 Therefore I say unto you, be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment? 26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value then they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto the measure of his life? 28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:  29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.) There was another section for books, which were all spiritual and Biblical books. (The Word is preserved always; available in various format to be ‘eaten'.) There was another section for all household needs and many other things. There was a section that had fruits and freshly made pastries for snacks, but no kitchen. There was a section of couches to sit on and rest. This building had everything anyone could need and everything in it was free.  Isa 55:1-2  Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2  Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? (“Freely you have received freely give” Those who charge are out of order.  We give our old life for our new life as Jesus said.) and your labor for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.  …We walked around the island and found another small green store. … We went in and a man greeted us and knew our names, and said he had been waiting for us. We had never seen him before so we weren't sure how he knew us. (The saints of God know one another after the Spirit.) This building had many tanks of fish. It was like a pet store but there were no cats or dogs but only fish, and they were all free. (Fish are for those who are fishers of men. Mat 4:19  And he saith unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you fishers of men.)  Behind the part where the fish were, it looked like the man lived at the back of the store as there was a bed and toilet. The man said he wanted to show us around the area. He was so very friendly, gentle and sweet. So, we got on motorbikes and followed the man to another part of the island. We drove past an area that had fruit trees and vegetables and wheat growing. (Representing the fruits of the Spirit born out of the saints that lived there.) There were other buildings on the island and we drove over to all these wooden cabins.  Some of them were small and others a little bigger, and some of the cabins were higher off the ground. (Log cabins form “cross shapes” at every corner and represent a tabernacle that is built upon a crucified life. Luk. 9:23-25 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self?) There were at least two rows of about 20 cabins. (2X20 = 40 which represents the Wilderness Tribulation as the Israelites were in the wilderness 40 years. Jesus was tested in the wilderness 40 days.) We got off the bikes in the middle of the two rows.   On the other side a little further away there were more rows of cabins. The man said that they have many brethren come in and stay here. Some stay in these cabins a short time, some a long time, and some permanently. (The ones who stay in the crucified life permanently represent those who have endured to the end to be saved. Mat. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. Or this represents those who bear fruit 30, 60, and 100 fold. Mat. 13:23 And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.) … The man said that we … will have our own studio house building in a different part of the island. (I believe the Lord has told me we will have our own studio in a quiet building to make videos and broadcast and telecast programs but I have not told others this.) We told the man that we wanted to speak with Mr. Eells. He told us the location of David's house which was on the other side of the island. (This is true too.) We thanked the man and he let us keep the bikes. (Bikes require balance and forward movement to stay erect and progress.)  He told us we can speak with him anytime (Representing the Holy Spirit), and if we ever need anything he will help us, and he is usually always at the “fish” store. (Representing the place of evangelism.)  I felt that there was another area on the island that was like a large dining room, where everyone that stayed in the cabins would all eat together. (You are what you eat spiritually. When we all partake of the Word of God which is Jesus, we become united with Him and each other. 1Co. 10:16-17 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ? 17 seeing that we, who are many, are one bread, one body: for we are all partake of the one bread.)  So, we got on the bikes and drove to another area of the island, and we arrived at this sky-blue house. (The house of David is the heavenly house on top of Mt. Zion.) We knocked on the door and David opened it and invited us in. We walked inside and looked around. The house design was an open plan or a studio. …David's house was the only building that I saw a kitchen in. (The kitchen represents the preparation of Spiritual Food, given in the gift of teaching.) (David represents the David Man-child reformers in whom Jesus lives by His Spirit and Word. These will be our guides through the wilderness tribulation as Moses was.) The first yellow building, the pet shop, and the cabins didn't have any kitchens; just beds and toilets. (These buildings represented the journey towards sanctification and resting from our own works represented by the beds and getting rid of waste in our lives represented by the toilets. The yellow library is where we are introduced to and invited to study the Word. The “fish store” is where we learn to evangelize and become fishers of men by sharing the Good News of the Gospel learned in the Son-shine library. Again, the cabins represent our crucified lives in our personal wilderness trials where we bear the fruit of Christ 30, 60, and 100 fold.) Heb 5:12-13  For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the beginning of the oracles of God; and are become such as need milk, not solid food. 13  For every one that partaketh of milk is inexperienced in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. And 1Pe 2:2  as newborn babes, long for the reasonable guileless milk, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation.   In the center of the house, in between the bed and kitchen was this giant spa bath; about four times bigger than a normal bathroom spa bath. The kitchen wall and the spa bath wall were all see-through, and there was a nice deck outside. (Representing the greatness and purity of the Word preached and transparency of sanctification show cased to the world through the Bride. Confessing sins is also represented by transparency.) I looked out through the see-through wall and there was beautiful green grass for about 110 yards with beautiful trees towards the left and right. After the grass there was a little sand leading to beautiful water. (Peter said, “All flesh is as grass”. This represents that our enemies on the outside of the wall of sanctification will be conquered.  110 represents the same thing in Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.  (Representing that the flesh is under our feet.) 2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion: Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. (The Bride will raise up many by teaching the crucified life.)  3 Thy people offer themselves willingly In the day of thy power, in holy array: Out of the womb of the morning Thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand Will strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He will judge among the nations, He will fill the places with dead bodies; He will strike through the head in many countries. (This is starting as we speak)  7 He will drink of the brook in the way: Therefore will he lift up the head. We were so very excited to tell David that God has answered all our prayers about provision. David went over to the spa and started cleaning it with a pool net in order to scoop up bits of dust and little bits of leaves. (The good shepherds, represented by David, always protect the water of the Word from contamination from apostasy and worldly dirt and impurities.) 2Co 13:5 (NENT) Test yourselves, whether ye are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or know ye not as to yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be disapproved.   I went over and asked him why he was doing it, and he said so it's clean for you to get into. (The good shepherds are very protective of the purity of the Word that they offer to their sheep.) I said to him, “That's kind, but you can go sit down and relax with Samuel, and I will clean it.” (We must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.) He smiled and gave me the net and went and sat on the couch with Samuel and I cleaned the spa. (The good shepherd's don't just moralize people, they teach them how to clean up their lives through showing them what the pure water of the Word should look like. This gives people the tools they need to “work out their own salvation.”) Then I woke up.  An Abundance of Provision for the Bride (2)  Lakeisha Watson - 2/3/23 (David's notes in red) I had a dream where I was in what looked like a big warehouse that had bank tellers in it. (Representing the Fathers provision of wealth to bring in God's elect.) I went to get a statement for my account and when the lady handed it to me I noticed I had about $37,000,000,000. (God's supernatural provision for the Man-child reformers and Bride.) In the dream, I remember thinking that, “Yesterday, I was thinking about how I wanted a billion dollars” but I hadn't asked God for this. (In real life I have no desire to be a billionaire. The number 37, in Bible numerics, means, "Word of God".) (Those who have the Word manifested in them will be rich for eternity.) In the dream, my goal was to keep the knowledge about how much money I had a secret and use it anonymously for good. I was planning on using it to build a personal house, a church building for UBM, to get Bryan a new truck, and to help others in need. I remember thinking in the dream that, “I would just keep my current car.” End. …In dream #2) It was a sunny day. Bryan and I were looking into getting another house. We were looking at one that was multi story and had 2 kitchens. UBM was there looking at it with us. I thought that it would be a great place for pot blessings. (This represents the “Headquarters” that the angels said we would have.) I remember specifically seeing Gabe and Michael and didn't think much about it. But later in real life I think the Lord reminded me that two of His arch angels are Michael and Gabriel. (His angels watch over the affairs of UBM.) …I asked the Lord for a verse by faith at random about these dreams and got, Rom. 1:17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith. Sow and I Will Give the Increase  Samuel Fire - 8/22/22 (David's notes in red) My wife, Tiannah, son, David, and I were in a run down suburb of a city. I remember that there was a lot of concrete structures and we were walking along an open corridor with vacant shops on one side. (This run down city represents World Babylon which is currently being destroyed politically and financially.) There was only one shop operating we walked passed it and kept going because it was a news-agent, selling papers, pens, newspapers, lotto tickets and the like. We didn't need any of that stuff. (The mainstream media is the last operational propaganda machine that the Babylonish Beast has remaining to control the masses with and it is ignored by the righteous.) I saw a lady up ahead of us and she was excited and frantically trying to operate what looked like an ATM. (This woman represents the “little sister of the Bride in Song. 8:8-9 We have a little sister, And she hath no breasts: What shall we do for our sister In the day when she shall be spoken for? 9 If she be a wall, We will build upon her a turret of silver: And if she be a door, We will inclose her with boards of cedar. As we will see, the Bride, represented by Samuel and Tiannah will meet the needs of the rest of the elect of God with the abundant provision that is provided for the Tribulation refuge.) There was hardly anyone in sight. We walked closer and I spotted some coins on the ground. It wasn't more than a few dollars in value. I said to Tiannah "Look I found some coins.” Tiannah said "Ask that lady if she dropped them". I called over to the lady nearby as we all walked closer to her and I said “Are these coins we found yours?"  I tried to hand them to her but she just said, "No. I'm busy.”  (Right now, the “little sister” is trapped in apostasy and distractions; chasing after the things of the world.) Then she got a ticket out of the machine and ran off to the news-agent shop. (The apostate Christians settle for less than God's best because they don't believe the Real Good News given to them in God's Word. Their doctrine limits God.)  I then said, "Lord, what do I do with these coins?". I felt Him say, "What is Caesar's, give to Caesar.”. I said this to Tiannah and the message of Mat. 22:21 came to mind. “Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”  I looked to my left and fed the coins into the machine. This machine wasn't an ATM but a lotto type machine and I had no idea what I was doing. Two tickets randomly generated and the machine spoke out "3rd Prize" and showed the value of the first ticket to be $627,835 and then the machine said, "Grand Prize" and showed the value of the last ticket to be $30million. (Give and it shall be given… Pro. 13:22 …the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the righteous.)  These tickets were really long pieces of paper and at the top it said in bold, "Do not process as cash.” I told Tiannah that I wanted to somehow give this away. I also told her, “I want to give this 3rd prize ticket to that lady we had seen before.” The lady from before was still at the news agent shop and we went over to her and I said, "Here, have this.” She took it but didn't say anything. (This is representative of the Bride giving to the “little sister” mentioned earlier out of the abundance of provision from God in a time of great need and lack.) Then, I gave the $30 million ticket to the agent to do the transaction for us. It was deposited into our account. We walked away and wanted to know what to do with this $30 million and, while praying, we both felt to give it away. I immediately said, “Let's give it all to UBM”. (The angels told us that the majority of the financial provisions for UBM would come from men being so impressed with the supernatural signs and wonders that they would heap financial gifts into our bosom.) Tiannah was pleased and I felt the Lord say "Sow and I will give the increase". I then checked our account and asked Tiannah, "Should I send the $3,000 we have personally as well?" She said, “Yes". We felt that we were being obedient to our Father. We sent it to UBM and carried on with our walk. (Luk. 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again. UBM has always given to the needs of the Kingdom.) Then I woke up. The Man-child Visits Abraham's Restaurant  Tiannah Fire - 12/19/22 (David's notes in red) I dreamt that there were many brethren sharing a medium size house in the suburbs together. … Some had their own tents in the back. (Original church living and sharing together.)(The Church will return to communal living in the wilderness. Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common. As we will see, this first group represents the first fruits Man-child reformers and the Bride.) Eph 2:19-22  So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of God's household, 20  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being chief corner stone; 21 in whom every building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22  in whom ye also are builded together into a habitation of God in Spirit. They all had their own tasks to take care of the place, and everyone was in unity and exercising their part and gifts in the Body. Some of the women did cooking, cleaning and taking care of everyone's things. Others were always praying and the men were praying together and getting deep into the Word. (Each member is part of the Body in Christ) 1Co 12:27  Now ye are Christ's body, and severally members thereof. And Rom 12:4-5  For even as we have many members in one body, but all the members have not the same office: 5 so we, the many, are one body in Christ, and severally members one of another.  There was a very long hall that went throughout the house, at one end were all the bedrooms and at the other end was a large lounge room which they used for prayer, Bible studies and fellowship. They spent most of their time here. (The long hallway that went throughout the house represents the straight and narrow path that Jesus spoke of in Mat. 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.) Everyone was in unity, and the women all shared clothes and were meek, quiet and gentle. The men always led the group and took charge and they were all very strong and manly- mentally and spiritually. (Representing the right order of relationship and Church governance that the first century Church held in high esteem.) There was a man named Timothy who was more mature in Christ than the others, although he was a young man… (Timothy means, “honoring God” or “God has honored” and he represents The Man-child reformers who will establish Christ's Kingdom Church in these last days.) This group of brethren didn't initially have much money but none of them worked for money. They just sought the Lord all day, every day. (Seek first the Kingdom and all your needs are met. Mat 6:33  But seek ye first his kingdom, and righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.) (Luk. 16:10 He that is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much…) They had all their needs met and they were all so content and happy and they all loved living together in unity. (1Ti. 6:6-8 But godliness with contentment is great gain: 7 for we brought nothing into the world, for neither can we carry anything out; 8 but having food and covering we shall be therewith content. There is no time left for distractions of life. We must be about our Fathers buisiness which is the harvest of souls.) I then started experiencing Timothy in the first person in this dream. He said to the group that he needed to get a “medical certificate” signed from a restaurant called Abraham's. (The sons of Abraham are those with faith.  They have scriptural, legal authority to heal the sick in our Kingdom. The “medical certificate” could represent the healing anointing that will come upon the Man-child reformers in order to bring revival to “Abraham's seed” who will recognize their authority to speak for God confirms His word with signs and wonders. Abraham is the Father of all who are in the true faith. Gal. 3:6-9  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham,'saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.) … Timothy drove to Abraham's and shared a little bit of the "Real Good News" and everyone in there was so very intrigued and could see the light of Jesus. Timothy preached about how God provides all our needs and he testified of seeking God and resting in Him and trusting Him with every little thing. …The whole time Timothy was at Abraham's restaurant he was manifesting the fruit of Jesus. (When the anointing comes, many, who are father Abraham's seed, will see the glory of God upon the Man-child reformers.) Timothy asked if he could pray for everyone there and they said, “Yes.” Everyone in the building was still watching Timothy and no one had spoken since Timothy entered the building because they were so interested in him. (The coming great revival will bring healing and deliverance to all of God's elect and confirm their words.) Timothy then looked to everyone and lifted up his voice and thanked God for each of their lives and he asked God for an outpouring of His grace, mercy and love upon them and to give them all ears to hear and eyes to see. He asked God to speak to each of them and to bring them all into His Kingdom. They all seemed to be in agreement with his prayer. They were in shock as they had never seen the Light or presence of God before. Timothy blessed them all and left. … I then saw a few years into the future and Timothy now had three sons. (Just like Noah had three sons who helped him build the first Ark refuge.) Timothy and the brethren owned a giant amount of very green land that was separate from other towns and they had built many buildings and houses on it. (UBM will also have a refuge which is shaped in the form of an Ark in the land by earthquake fault lines.) Timothy and the brethren were now financially rich because God had blessed them for seeking Him and doing His will. (The Lord provides for His Kingdom to be established.)  Gen 22:14  And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of Jehovah it shall be provided.  And Php 4:19  And my God shall supply your every need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.   I saw that the brethren all lived together in this refuge town that Timothy had established with the brethren. There was an even larger number of brethren now, and they were all seeking God every day and desiring His will and they were all taking care of each other. Everyone that lived in the town were brethren and they all owned it and were in unity and gave God all the Glory. Timothy was reminded of the time he went to Abraham's restaurant and he … felt God wanted him to go back and testify how God provides for His children and that, in our own strength and self-works, we can't do much, but with trust and faith in God and doing His will, the impossible can be done. (This represents the Man-child reformers going out to bring the Good News of the Gospel to the rest of Abraham's seed who are the faithful of God.) The people in the restaurant could see how much Timothy was on fire for God and hadn't physically had much but, now, from seeking God, he had been blessed with his own town for Jesus. Timothy felt that when he went back to the restaurant that many others would come join them in their refuge town, to seek Jesus also. (Many will follow the Man-child reformers out into the wilderness Tribulation and be drawn to the refuges during God's judgments. Also they will receive training there.) Then I woke up. Life at the Refuge Sandy Shaw - April 2011 (David's notes in red) I was in a forest (wilderness). Many women were cooking, cleaning and preparing meals. Off to the side, women were washing clothes and others were sewing.  I spoke to a younger lady and said, "It's time to pray and intercede". Then we went to this place where we prayed. Many women were already there praying. Some were standing, some were kneeling, some were prostrate on the ground interceding.  It was as if everyone knew what to do and when to do it. Very smooth and orderly. When women got through with a particular job, they would then come over and pray and intercede.  Then I saw two small children (ages 9-10) come running from the forest, yelling, "They are coming! They are coming to get us". Very much afraid because they had seen two ships on the water close to the refuge.  I said to them, "They can't bother us or see us because we are under God's protection". Two men from the refuge came out then and told the kids not to worry, that all would be fine and God would protect us. Native  Tiannah Fire - 1/12/22 (David's notes in red)  I dreamt that Samuel and I moved to a place called ‘many peaks' that was out in the middle of nowhere, in a desert place. All the ground was an orange color either sand or dirt. (Representing the wilderness.)  The only road was a one lane, dirt road, and people drove along this road to travel to different states. They would be driving for a long time in this desert bush area. There were no other houses around except the one we moved into. This place wasn't really an area where people lived but they would just drive through. The previous owners had used the place we moved into as a motel for passers by; otherwise, the people would have had to sleep in their car because it would be days of driving until getting to civilization.  …The previous owners told us that they used the top right-side building for themselves, and they rented the left and bottom one for people driving through which they said wasn't often. The owners then left us alone.   The whole place was set up for off-grid and natural living, and there was a river nearby. Samuel and I decided that we didn't need much space so we only lived in the building on the right and the other 3 were for travelers. We also didn't feel right about charging anyone for staying here, so we agreed that people could stay here for free.  I got to work inside to prepare the wood oven and Samuel went out hunting with a bow and arrow. I then saw everything in the Spirit.  Samuel went near a bush area that had orange sand or dirt hills, and was searching for food. A Native American Indian that had braids and feathers on his head came over to Samuel and he was guiding a horse. (As we will see, the Native American represents God's elect who are entitled to the benefits of the Kingdom, because they are the original owners of the promised land, but they are currently turned off by apostate Christianity. He is guiding his horse representing that his beastly flesh is in submission and he's looking for the truth.)  Samuel introduced himself and the Indian didn't seem happy. He knew that Samuel had moved into the motel. Samuel said something about Jesus and the American Indian stopped him and started complaining about the previous people who owned the motel, as they confessed to be Christians, but were hypocrites and it turned him away from Jesus. (The previous owners of the “motel” represent the apostate leadership who have brought disrepute to Jesus and Christianity through their hypocrisy.) (People want the truth, not ear-tickling apostate doctrines.)  Samuel was understanding and calm and apologized for the people who had misrepresented Jesus, and he spoke about how the real Jesus is and he spoke the Word to the Indian.  The man softened and opened his heart and could see the Light, and he agreed with what Samuel said about Jesus, and the man suggested for them to meet up again to discuss more about Jesus.  Then Samuel asked for advice for living out here and getting food etc. and the Native American Indian gave him secrets and tips for getting food, water and other survival techniques. The Indian also helped us with physical things, and God used Samuel to help with spiritual things. I felt that everything would be okay. (Many of God's elect will be reconciled to God and the real Jesus in the wilderness Tribulation and they will also bring their gifts to the Bride as in (Isa. 60:10-12 And foreigners shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee. 11 Thy gates also shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the wealth of the nations, and their kings led captive. 12 For that nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.) Then I woke up. David's School Bus Driving to Mt. Zion Tiannah Fire - 12/31/22 (David's notes in red) I dreamt that many brethren from the Outreach and Local UBM were all living in a really nice, green area. The air was so fresh and there were colorful gardens and beautiful trees and this beautiful river. I remember seeing the ‘Galchenko' family and ‘Timoschuck' family. (The green area is a place of refuge and safety.)  All the brethren didn't live in houses but they all lived off the land and slept under the stars, although each family had their own private area. All the brethren were in unity and fellowshipped every day and they shared all things physical and spiritual. (It was like the original Church of communal living Act 2:44  And all that believed together had all things common.)  We all had this giant yellow bus that we could all ride in. I remember seeing David driving alone in the bus while everyone was at home. (The yellow school bus with the David Man-child reformers driving represents their gift of understanding and teaching the deeper things of the Word to all in the UBM school.) I then had a birds eye view of David driving from this place to the end of the river and driving along the sea coast for a while. He crossed the border into Canada and then kept driving on the coast even though there was no road. (Canada is in the North from the U.S. Spiritually, this represents heading in the direction of the Kingdom of God which is described as being situated on the “sides of the North”. Psa. 48:2 Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, Is mount Zion, on the sides (or coasts) of the north, The city of the great King.)  I saw him turn right for a while and then straight ahead, up and down hills and around hills for a long time. (We must keep to the right and stay on the straight path even though we will encounter many ups and downs on our journey to Mt. Zion.) He then got to a giant mountain which he drove around to the side on the sea coast and parked the the bus, and walked up the mountain. This was the place we were moving to and it was even more beautiful than the previous placed we lived. (The David Man-child reformers are paving the way through their many trials of the ministry of Christ and the crucified life in order to rule on Mount Zion.) I then saw all the brethren back at the nice, green area, and we were all preparing the families for the move. We didn't have many physical items - as we were just mostly living off of the land. David came back with the bus and we got on board. However, there were a few people that didn't want to go to the new place, so they stayed at this place. (Some will not want to make the journey to the top of Mt. Zion but the first fruits will continue up to the summit.)… Then I woke up.   Angels Guide to Refuges Eve Brast - 7/15/08 (David's notes in red) ... It was dark outside and it seemed like we spent the night there. Suddenly, the next morning, late in the morning, a young man with short brown hair burst through the front glass door and braced it open with his foot and said very excitedly, "David said it's time to go to the wilderness!" We (our UBM study group) all hurried out into the parking lot with the kids and a supersonic noise got my attention.  I thought it was a jet plane flying overhead. As I looked up into the sky there were no clouds and the sky was blue about 11:00 AM. I saw an arrow-shaped vapor trail just clearing the mall on my right, high up in the sky and flying overhead toward the left horizon. It went all the way around the world and then I watched it come up from the horizon ahead of me and I followed it overhead and turned around to watch it head down the horizon behind me, but it stopped 30 degrees up from the horizon and faced us. Then we realized it wasn't a jet but an angel. He had golden, curled hair and a simple white robe with a thin gold rope around his waist. He motioned with his right arm and forefinger to follow him in that direction. So, we all started to walk in that direction. Then I woke up.  (The arrow-shaped vapor trail cleared the roof of the mall from the east, heading west down past the horizon, around the world and came up the northern horizon and headed over our heads toward the southern horizon, then stopped 30 degrees from the southern horizon. Our UBM group then all began to walk toward the direction of the south, following the angel.) Our UBM group was located in the Dallas / Fort Worth area in Texas. (When the people of God left Egypt to go to the wilderness refuge from the beast they went south first and then went north to their Promised Land) I felt in the dream that this angel was showing multiple groups of people at the same time around the world where their refuges were.)  Note from David: It was an angel of God that guided Israel into the wilderness place of safety from the beast kingdom (Exo.12:37; 13:20; 14:19). I believe God's angels will do this for UBM and saints all over the world. This way only the right people will be there. Also, there is another type of angel, or messenger, that will guide God's people to their wilderness refuge during the tribulation. Satellites are commonly called angels nowadays. Sky Angel is a satellite network. There is a road angel satellite navigation system. The military has had a program since 2004 called Autonomous Nanosatellite Guardian Evaluating Local Space, or A.N.G.E.L.S., to watch over the U.S. There is also Digital Angel which has designed microchips readable from satellite for the beast system. Three angels in Rev.14:6-9 preach the Gospel, warn of judgment, the fall of Babylon, and the mark of the beast, from mid heaven... and all of this before the middle of the tribulation.  We believe the Lord would have us use satellite angels to reach the majority of the population of Earth with this same message and will guide them to the wilderness refuge. Satellites are also commonly called "birds". {Rev.12:13} And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man [child]. {14} And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. See also Refuge Ministry to the World and Davids Will Preach Word from Heaven. SERVICES Ubbs Outreach Friday Night Worship CONTACT Share Your Testimony Request Prayer Technical Support Questions SUPPORT US We are a non-profit organisation based in United States. Our goal is to empower and equip people to discover more about Christianity and point them to a life of happiness, peace and purpose. Donate © Unleavened Bread Ministries 2023 Disclaimer

With Sleep Medicine Specialist Dr. David Gessert   What's your idea of the perfect vacation getaway? Imagine if money were no object and you could go anywhere, would you choose to sightsee in an exotic, glamorous location? Or, is your idea of the perfect getaway a sunny beach somewhere? Although our concept of the ideal vacation may vary, rarely do we book a trip with the idea of getting away from home simply for a good night's sleep. Instead, we return home filled with wonderful memories but feeling like we may need a vacation after our amazing trip just to recover!    Well, that might be about to change. One of the hottest wellness trends for 2023 is booking a vacation with the primary goal of getting a proper night's rest. According to a recent article in “Pure Wow,” several well-known luxury hotels are now offering wellness travel packages that prioritize the perfect night's sleep. These days, new hotels are being designed specifically to promote sleep, health, and well-being with features such as sound-deadening materials in the doors, walls, and floors to ensure a quiet night's rest along with air purifiers and soft lighting.   Taking it one step further, the Hotel Cadogan in London features a Sleep Concierge service where you can book a session with leading hypnotherapist and sleep expert, Malminder Gill. The service also includes sleep-inducing meditation recordings by Gill along with a “Pillow menu” that allows you to select your choice of pillow firmness, weighted blankets, a bedtime tea, and a scented pillow mist, all designed to support the best possible sleep. But you don't have to travel to London to get the perfect night's sleep. Right here in the U.S., numerous hotels are also offering sleep packages. For example, the Westin Hotel chain is famous for the sleep amenities they provide, including Lavender Balms, White Tea body lotions, and scented candles along with their luxurious Heavenly Bedding. The Park Hyatt in New York provides sleep masks along with their Sleep Suites which feature the Bryte Restorative Bed that dynamically adjusts to the guest's sleep stages throughout the night to relieve pressure points and control the climate and temperature of the bed. Finally, the new Fairmont Century Plaza offers a combination of infrared technology, compression therapy, and healing sound waves on a specially designed anti-gravity bed. Additional amenities include CBD bath bombs, oversized soaking tubs, and black-out curtains.   If a “sleep destination” trip isn't an option right now, there are still simple things you can do to get a better night's sleep. For example, establish a nightly routine by going to bed at the same time every night and rising at the same time every morning. Exercise early in the morning rather than late at night so you don't get overstimulated and find it hard to fall asleep. Spending just fifteen minutes outside in the sunlight, even during the winter, could help reduce insomnia. Finally, don't bring your phones, iPads, and laptops into your bedroom because the blue screen light can trick your brain into thinking it's still daytime.   But if these helpful suggestions don't result in a better night's sleep, you may wish to consult a doctor. And in the meantime, check out my 2021 interview with Sleep Medicine Physician, Dr. David Gessert from Henry Ford Health.   What You'll Hear in This Episode: How did David get involved in sleep medicine? Can we break up our sleep instead of getting it all at once? What is sleep deprivation? What is “microsleep” and why is it dangerous? How much sleep should adults aim to get every night? Why is sleep deprivation linked to triggering anxiety and depression? What role does a good night's sleep play in balancing our hormones? How much sleep do children and teenagers need? What are the five categories of sleep disorders? What is sleep apnea and why do people snore? How can some people function on very little sleep? Is it possible to catch up on lost sleep? What is included in healthy sleep hygiene? Does lack of sleep cause weight gain? Is there such a thing as getting too much sleep? How does the loss of sleep affect your immune system and mental health? What about sleeping pills like Ambien? How can you combat chronic sleep deprivation? What is involved in sleep apnea testing and treatments? How can you contact Dr. David Gessert to schedule an appointment?   Today's Takeaway: A chronic lack of sleep is not only exhausting and leaves us feeling tired and irritable, but it also can be extremely damaging to our health. It's not just our physical health that can be affected. A chronic lack of sleep can also trigger bouts of extreme anxiety and depression. But the good news is that there are ways to make up for lost sleep. Practicing good sleep hygiene can be the first step toward getting a better night's sleep. Making positive changes to your nightly regimen by creating a healthy bedtime routine might help you sleep better at night. Identify the factors that are preventing you from getting your best night's sleep. Eliminating caffeine and power drinks after mid-day, reducing your alcohol consumption, practicing meditation or deep breathing, and avoiding heavy meals before bedtime are all ways in which we can improve our chances for a good night's sleep. By providing our body with the adequate rest it needs, we not only give ourselves the chance to perform at our best the following day, but we're able to be there for our loved ones as well. Remember that every day is a gift and the gift of a good night's sleep is a gift we need to give ourselves. I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.”   Quotes: “A lot of the really good quality sleep comes at the end of a long stretch of sleep.” — David   “Anybody's going to be irritable if you don't get enough sleep. And so that can make it tougher for the kids to behave during school.” — David   “You know, the heavier you are, the more likely you are to snore, and the more likely you are to develop sleep apnea.” — David    “If you're under six hours, you're not getting enough sleep.” — David   “For people who continuously don't get enough sleep, their performance continues to decline.” — David   “It's not really possible to catch up on sleep. You have to maintain getting adequate sleep each night.” — David   “Simple fixes can have a very large difference in your sleep quality.” — David   Brought to You By: Florine Mark   Mentioned in This Episode: David Gessert, MD Make an appointment with Dr. Gessert or call 313-916-4417

INTRODUCTION: David Hernandez is the founder of Body By Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast, Listen, You're Not Defeated.  He is passionate, inspiring, andmotivated. He believes that each of us was designed to live a life of purpose. He believes in one core component in everything he teaches... providing VALUE. So that men and women can learn the principles needed to achieve a healthy, fit and fulfilling life. His life's mission is to empower OVER 1MILLION people to live a better life, healthy, fit and free! After losing hischildhood best friend to obesity at the age of 21, David promised himself thatno one he loved or cared about was ever going to die of obesity if he couldhelp it.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Super Sickening Health Advice·      Male Self Esteem Issues·      Obesity Concerns·      Emotional Eating·      Our Relationship With Food·      Fitness Industry Tea·      Lagging Indication Of Lab Tests·      The Benefits Of Weight Loss·      The Stress Of Weight On Internal Organs·      The Mental Effect On Exercise  CONNECT WITH DAVID: Website: http://www.DavidHernandez.coWebsite: http://www.EmotionalEatingSupport.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3k6mW3tFacebook: www.facebook.com/davekhernandezTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/davekhernandezInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/davekhernandezLinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davekhernandez/  DIETICIAN RECOMMENDED INFO: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/weight-management/adult-overweight-obesity/health-riskshttps://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: David Hernandez[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Good morning everybody, and welcome to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. So glad to have you with me today. David Hernandez is the founder of Body by Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast. Listen, you're not defeated. Join David and I today as we get deep and heavy about obesity, our relationship with food, mental health, self-esteem, and so much more.David [00:01:00] lost a friend to obesity and had a near death experience himself,and so this episode is quite emotional.Please listen and share. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I love having all of you. I love having sex with all of you. I love doing drugs with all of you, and I love talking about Jesus with all of you. David, how are you? David: I'm doing fantastic. My man's doing, doing a, a great morning here and excited to be here with you.Thanks for having me. De'Vannon: Hells fuck yeah. So y'all, David Hernandez is in Florida. He's the founder of Body By Purpose. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's the creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's a certified personal trainer, a certified nutrition specialist, the member of the International Sports and Science [00:02:00]Association.He's gonna tell me what that is in a moment, cause I'm most curious about it. He's the host of. Of of the podcast called Listen, you're Not Defeated, and he's gonna give us some tea about that too. So I'll walk you, I'll walk you through everything that you gotta tell us. So first, what is Body by Purpose?David: Yeah. Awesome. And look, I believe our body was designed with the specific purpose, and each one of our purposes are unique. And if our body isn't aligned to our purpose, to our desire, to our lifestyle, to the things that we desire to achieve and do in life, well, we may fall short of that because our body is the instrument that takes us there.right? It's what makes us travel to that destination in life. And so I believe that when we align our body to that purpose, we can truly become unstoppable and ultimately able to achieve whatever we desire to achieve. So that was critical with me. I was, I was kind of thinking about what name do I wanna [00:03:00] give?Because I believe that health is bigger than us, right? And if we can include purpose in all that we do, well, then we can make our body achieve that as well. De'Vannon: So is this like a nonprofit? Is it, you know, like your fitness organization? What is it? David: Yeah, it's my company where I run all of my fitness through.But primarily it's also A, a kind of like a, like a motto that I, that I want people to adopt in their own life, so to speak, because it's a message, right? And I think that when we put a message or a meaning to everything that we do, then we can enhance the value of what we're doing. And I believe that our body is a critical tool.It's an instrument that oftentimes we ignore. We're now starting to talk a lot about, a lot about the mind, and we talk a lot about our emotions and we talk a lot about many things, and the body's also talked about, [00:04:00] however, I believe the body is not presented in the correct. I believed oftentimes when we look at the media, when we look at how we should look, there's a specific stigma.There's a specific style. Right now we're getting back into the really, really skinny look, and oftentimes if the look or the body, again, isn't specifically aligned to your purpose, then it doesn't matter what body you have, it's gonna ultimately keep us from achieving our ultimate desires in.De'Vannon: Okay. All right, cool.So what is the Elite Champion Fitness Academy? David: That's the academy that I put together where I utilize to train all my students. So instead of me telling you what to do, I believe in educating you to take control of your own health. So it's a platform that I have. All of the years that I've been in fitness, 15 plus [00:05:00] years, all of the education that I've acquired, I've condensed it to a very specific core component system, so to speak.And in that academy, I put all of the principles that I believe are necessary for one to achieve the ultimate health that they desire in one place. And so that's basically my coaching platform that I put together, and it's what I utilize with all of my students. De'Vannon: Fabulous. Now, what is the International Sports and Science Association?David: That's where I got my certification from. It's a certification education company or a certification company where you can get your nutrition certification, your personal trainer, asso certification and all things related to health basically. De'Vannon: All right. Now they had me atk. I was like, okay,So the podcast, listen, you're not defeated. What is its premise? David: The premise is really to tell [00:06:00] people that doesn't matter what situation that you're in, you're really not defeated. And oftentimes as humans, we have one area or a few areas where we might feel defeated in, and that might be nutrition, that might be in health.I can't release weight. That might be in mindset. I don't know how to take control of certain negative thoughts to get me there. So it's a lifestyle show where we basically cover many areas to ultimately help you live a not defeated life. De'Vannon: Now, when I was researching that on your website it's the verbiage kind of makes it seem like it's geared toward women.Is that still the case or has it expanded to include. David: It's expanded to include everyone, and it's really now to the place of, well, what is your ultimate desire, right? In life, which initially when we started it, it was geared very specifically towards only health. But I realize that in that [00:07:00] health is covering all areas, right?It's not just a physical health, it's also a mental health. It's also emotional health. It's also spiritual health. And health is bigger than us because it does impact everything that we do. So through our development and kind of going episode to episode, we've now been able to diversified and expand it to anyone that wants to basically just live a freedom lifestyle or a lifestyle of freedom.for proper English, De'Vannon: oh, fuck, proper English . One thing, one thing I despise about this country. Is that we don't have like an actual language of our own. That's right. You know, we speak English well, that came from fucking England and fuck the king off with his head. Yeah. . You know, may I think that, I think that Mad Queen might've had a few Few.Hmm. A few, few, few good points there. [00:08:00] I don't know. I just it would be, I just love it that every other, basically every other country has its own fucking language. Yeah. You know, Australia at least has a goddamn accent, you know, and at least they have an accent, you know, over there in the uk, but pretty much every other country, you know, they have and in that their own language and that language really unites them, you know?Yeah. And everything like that. It's like, it's like, it's like when you're on a job, but you learn to speak that occupation's language and it bonds you. Mm-hmm. , you know, David: I feel like, I mean, it's an essence, right? I believe it's, it's an essence that makes up a country and it makes up an identity type. And look, I, I think holding onto that, that conversation there, I think it's the same thing for all language in terms of who we are as people, right?Because when we look at language, it, it's the, it's an essence that, that identifies something or someone, a country. [00:09:00] And I believe that in America, oftentimes we don't have our own unique language, meaning we strive to sometimes be like somebody else, to copy somebody else, right? To, to, to, to live the life that somebody else has.And we sometimes forget about, well, what is our core essence that we can adopt to live our own life and set our own standard, so to speak, in what we want in our life? So I just thought De'Vannon: I'd throw that in. Feel free to throw in anything you want, man. So I love, I love how how deep of a thinker you are. And the reason why I really wanted to have you on my show is that that passion, you, you talk like a preacher, like you have like one of the good preachers, y'all, not one of the rapy ones or one of the molesters , not one of the grif ones.Good one. So you have like that certain fire and intensity and passion and I could tell that you're living, like you're calling [00:10:00] and you even fused that into health and fitness and so Right. Thought it would be a unique take. I could have gotten anybody on here to talk about health and fitness, but I, I was, I was needing that, you know, I was looking for that, that.And so, which you have that spark. And so I'm curious when I Oh, you're welcome. And so when I was read, you know, researching you and everything I saw where you in the beginning of your fitness journey, you would go to the gym and you, you start up like the big muscley guys or whatever like that and mm-hmm.and I read where you were able to extract insight and wisdom and tips that you said that you felt like the personal trainers and things like that either didn't know or they weren't sharing. So I would like you to share with us some sweet ass David: secret. Yeah. Look, it really, what I've learned through I guess, looking at many bodybuilders life is that they've got [00:11:00] two to three things very clear for the.They've given meaning to everything that they're doing in the gym. Like it has a certain value and it has a certain standard of meaning for them. It's what drives them. It's what gets them up. It's what keeps them on diets for months and years on end. It's what keeps them committed to a specific outcome.So much so that even if they don't get it, they live satisfied because they know that the process and the journey has gotten them close to it or to achieving it. Right? And when I look at health, I look at, well, I started asking questions and saying, well, why is it that people don't stick to the journey?Why is it that people fall off? Why is it that they have, they're able to commit to other things, but yet they fall off? When we're talking about health, and I really come back to this piece, they've either not given health the value. That is necessary for them [00:12:00] to continue, or they've put other things at greater value that are overvalued or have greater value than they've put on health.And then the second component is really looking at, well, they haven't given value or they don't find value in themselves. They don't feel that they might be worth it. They feel that they might not be worthy enough. They might feel that they're not deserving of having the health or the life that they desire.So that was a big one. And I said, okay, so if this bodybuilder is living in this way and he's given this meaning to them, that's keeping them stuck, well, why can't we incorporate that to just any average person? To help them in their own health and fitness journey. Right? So that was one. The second, the second thing that I learned, the second sort of secret, right, which is really not a secret, but is their commitment to process, meaning their determination and dedication to the [00:13:00] sport, right?Or to their body or to their life. Because we look at, well, what does it take to get a body so greatly proportioned, so immaculate, right? So precise in a sense that it comes down to a science they're determined to achieve, that they're dedicated to that process. And oftentimes when we're looking at an average person, right, or, or, or a, a person that is on their own journey, sometimes that might be lacking the dedication, the determination, and it help, it doesn't allow them to get to their ultimate goal and destination.Right. And then thirdly, a lot of it was learning how they actually work out some of the methodologies in terms of how they're sculpting the bodies, how they're actually doing certain movement patterns and taking that muscle to failure and making the muscle grow through increasing the blood flow in that body part, right?And [00:14:00] ultimately reducing down to as little body fat as possible. So it, it brought a lot of insight that I was able to incorporate and look at, okay, if I'm not training a bodybuilder, how can I still incorporate some of these principles or some of these things that they do to a average person that is looking to maybe release 20 pounds, 30 pounds, 10 pounds, 50 pounds, a hundred pounds?Right. And it was some, some of the core essences that I believe have really impacted many people in their, in their own journey. De'Vannon: You know what I'm curious about? I don't really think like a male. I identify more with feminine energy, so I think more like a woman on mills dating. Okay. Right. And so I'm curious cuz all of this, everything that you said is like, so like meaningful and deep in terms of physique and stuff like that.So from talking to other guys and within yourself, like what are some of the things that motivate men to go, [00:15:00] you know, to work out, to get, you know, really, really defined bodies? We're gonna talk about like the obesity and everything. Yeah. You know, in just a second. weight loss goals can be different, you know?Absolutely. Going from 300 pounds to one 90 is like a huge deal, but you may not be like chiseled and well defined, but you are in super great shape, especially relative to what you were mm-hmm. . And I know that once you get like a six pack and eight pack, a nine pack or whatever, every guy I know who has that, the, if he gets out of the gym for like a month, that damn thing goes away.Mm-hmm. . And so so whenever, so they don't go more than like a week out of the gym and whenever they travel, they take their asses over the Gold Gym, fitness or whatever, like, like religion. So when I look at a man like that, I think, okay, he's hot. This is like a sexual thing. Mm-hmm. . But the, but from hearing you describe this, and from the way I have [00:16:00] observed other guys, I don't know that it's like a sexual thing.And so I don't, so how, how do men look at, how do y'all look at your own David: body? A lot of it is driven by ego in a sense that because we as men are achievers, right, strivers, we want to be in that place of, of chasing after things, achieving the provider at the home or whatever that might be for you.It really is driven oftentimes by. How can I be the best version of myself or how can I be better than him? Or how can I be better than myself to become better? Or oftentimes it's, I used to be this type of person that kept me in a low self-esteem state that wasn't who I wanted to be, for example. I can really identify to that.Growing up, I was super. [00:17:00] I was given a nickname, skinny. My dad used to call me that he didn't know. He thought it was a good thing for him, but for me, it would affect my self-esteem. It would affect the way I would view myself because I did not like the way I looked. I was excessively for my standard skinny.I would be made fun of because I wasn't able to possibly perform, be good at sports because I was a specific physique type, right? And I always found myself having to prove myself, proving myself that I was able to play football, proving myself that I could become the best athlete, proving myself that I was much more than what my body said.And so that took me into, okay, so how can I change that? I started reading magazines. I started looking at these bodybuilders and these physiques and saying, oh my gosh, who is this? Can I possibly achieve that? Then I look at their back stories, and many of these bodybuilders were the same way. They were skinny.They were very thin, they were bullied, they were made fun of. [00:18:00] And then that drove them to change that. So oftentimes it, it really comes down to each person's unique story, but I believe deep down inside there is something of that nature that is driving them, either growing up excessively skinny, low self-esteem, maybe being bullied, or it can ultimately come down to an ego-based drive that's just like, I wanna be the best.How can I achieve that wall? Let me be intimidating. Let me have these muscles because it's gonna give me a certain look or a certain presence, right? Wherever I go, that when I walk into a room, I can change or capture the environment based on how I look.Okay. No, I can't speak for every male. Right? But that's what oftentimes I've, I, I believe is, is the reasons. De'Vannon: I mean I think you might speak for quite a [00:19:00] lot of them, especially men who, who are more on the masculine side, you know, and you know, cause even like the gay world mm-hmm. , you know, your tops and everything.You know, you, you have your tops, your bottom tops are like, the dudes bottoms are like the girls, you know, for lack of better. Right. References. Even them, they get like this thing about being too thin. Mm-hmm. , you know, for me, I've always been able to keep a weight on, so I've always been like, okay, how can I get this shit offYeah. But I, but I didn't wanna be muscley or nothing like that. I wanted it like a nice, you know, curvy like, you know, womanly physique and stuff like that. And I, I guess it's just, and I guess it's just because I don't think like a guy like it, it was, it, it has been absolutely perplexing to me in my existence.Why somebody who's not overweight. Who's like super skinny has a problem with that. Yeah. You know, [00:20:00] I, you know, hearing you explain it helps me to digest that better, because all my life I'm like, okay, how can I get down to, to being, you know, skinny mm-hmm. , you know, and and then the skinny guys are like, I'm not enough.You know, I want to be more. And, and I'm all like, boy, don't you know, you fine as hell. What do you want? Like, what more do you want? So, and then perspective. Perspective, right? And then the relationships. That I've had, you know, the, the, the, the dude, he's all like, he thinks he's too thin. I'm all like, okay, whatever you need to do.I'm not judging your body, but they have it in their head. So much likes saying like, I can't, I just can't be thin. I need to like, have muscle or whatever. And so I don't know if that's like the xy chromosome primal. If I need to defend myself, I need to be bigger than the other person too. Maybe some of that's getting worked in there.I believe David: so. Yeah. And, and oftentimes it can become a coping mechanism [00:21:00] to something like when we're talking about life experiences, right? We're talking about emotional triggers, emotional pain, trauma, right? Something in experience that causes some type of impact to us emotionally or psychologically will produce a stimulant to search for a coping mechanism.And as humans, we all need them to survive to allow us to release whatever emotional impact we've received by X situation or X circumstance, right? And oftentimes, if it's body dysmorphia, right, which we can kind of label that as as well. I see myself skinny. I see myself skinny, but dude, you're not right.In our head, we create that dysmorphia type where we may never be satisfied or we just see ourselves at something else. And oftentimes when we're chasing after this and we fall into this coping action physique wise, [00:22:00] it can become a trap because again, we're never satisfied. I remember on my body building journey, it didn't matter how big I was.I wanted to be bigger. It didn't matter how good I looked, I wanted to look better. It didn't matter how many compliments I received of, dude, you have a great physique. No, no, no, but this, but that, right? We have a tendency of finding the flaws of not being satisfied, and that ultimately is caused in my belief by finding a coping action in the wrong things or releasing our set circumstances that we're feeling emotionally satisfying them or trying to satisfy them with the wrong things.if that makes sense. Oh, it De'Vannon: makes perfect sense. And that's a huge reason why I do all the work that I do to try to, to get people to understand themselves. Because so often we don't. And we think we do. Yeah. Yeah. So you hear me say all the time, people, why do you think, what do you think? Why do you feel [00:23:00] what you feel?Where do you get that belief and value system from? I love that. Is it valid? I love that. Yeah. I, I went the opposite direction. No matter how thin I got back in the day. It wasn't thin enough. I lost so much weight that I couldn't fit the men's jeans in the store that I would go to. So I had to start wearing wow jeans as I was down like a 26th waistline.And I was like, I need to be thinner, you know? And so so I guess that's like how the girls, that's how we do. And thin enough, the boys, you're not big enough. Oh my God, help us to just figure this shit out, , . David: But look, if we are doing things for the wrong reasons, that can quickly spiral to that. So that's why every time I'm doing a consultation, right, and I'm talking to a potential client, it's why do you wanna release weight?Why do you wanna build muscle? Because if the reason why you're doing it is an incorrect reason, right? Just to give it a, a name, to give it a [00:24:00] category. If it's placed for the wrong reasons or it's placed on the wrong things, that is when things can quickly become destructive. Mm-hmm. . It's why sometimes I even ask myself, right?And now, now we're get, I'm getting hypocritical because this is me and this is how I tend to look at things based on my understanding and knowledge. I become hypercritical about certain things, and it's okay, I wanna have this whole pizza. Why do I wanna have this whole pizza? I wanna have this cake. Why do I wanna have this cake?Right. And it might be, I don't sit there and ask myself this question. It happens here now because of the practice that I've had. But if we can get into a place to, to, like you said, ask ourselves questions. Why is it that I want this? Why is it that I wanna do that? Why do then we can stop and really think, is this really necessary?Is this what I want? Which is why [00:25:00] one of the questions that I teach my students to ask them is, is this choice that I'm, I'm about to do in line with who I wanna be in line with, who I wanna become? Mm-hmm. in line with the life that I desire. If we can practice, like you said, to ask ourselves these questions, I believe that we can really get good at taking control of our impulses, of our reactions, of our emotions, right.That sometimes drive us or lead us to making choices that later we can regret. . Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: you preaching now. Amen. And amen. . So, so you mentioned consultation. So tell, tell us about exactly the, so what, what kind of, so you have clients, are they seeing you in person? Is it virtual? Clearly they're coming because they want to change their physique.So kind of walk us through what that looks like and if people would reach out to you through your website. Like how does a, what exactly are you offering here? David: Yeah. Before, [00:26:00] before Covid, a lot of it was in person and it was very exclusive, right? It was like only a certain type of people. Only certain, certain instances would I take them.And after Covid I realized, look, I, I, I could be impacting more, right? And really the reason why I do everything that I do, it was to be able to help people avoid. Going through what my best friend went through, and we can touch on that story story a little later, but it was to support and to help people.And when this epidemic happened, it was a great opportunity for me to then make that expansion. So now everything is virtual. Everything is now online based, right through the academy, and we've got several different types of formats. We have a one-on-one type coaching, and then we have a group type model.And it's to accommodate people at different levels based on their commitment and also based on their finances. But it's really [00:27:00] just, we make it unique and personal to you because we're that type, right? As humans, we're all unique. We're all different types of people, so no program should ever be the same for.Because we're different, right? We have different desires. We have different lifestyles. And that's really the big key, because I believe if whatever you're doing today doesn't align to your lifestyle, meaning who you are as a person, the type of career you have, the type of of schedule you have, the type of time that you have, the commitment that you have, if it doesn't align to that, at some point or another, you will quit or you will fail, you'll give up, right?Because it just becomes unstable. It's not sustainable. So my approach in every consultation is really getting down to the root and to the desires of each person's life. Why do you wanna do it? What is your motivation? What is the driving force, right? What are the desires? What do you wanna achieve? And then from there, it's really getting to the person's commitment level, [00:28:00] right?So how much time are you willing to invest? What is your life like, right? How can we make this align or come together with your life? Because. If you're, if you're chasing health in a f in a program mindset, meaning I have an exercise program, I have a, a nutrition program, that means it's not necessarily a part of your life.You're just following a specific program. And at some point, if you don't like that program anymore, you are gonna stop doing it. But if I can now introduce health to become a part of your life, now I marry it. I bring it together with your life. It's gonna be a lot easier for you to sustain, and you're more likely to hold onto it.Why? Because now it becomes a part of you, a part of your essence, a part of your d n a, a part of your makeup as a human and as your life. [00:29:00] So that's a very critical component for me. When we're doing consultations and we're, we're working closely with any student because I wanna ensure that. You keep it lifelong.So De'Vannon: then give me an example of the sort of help you would offer. Is it meal plans? Is it workout plans? Is it helping someone see like, like, like, like what, like what, what would it actually David: be? Yeah. Again, it's customized for everyone's need, right? So it would include all those things. If let's say, no, I only need help with the exercise part.Okay, we'll tailor it to that. No, I need help with a lot of things, right? I need help with my nutrition, my, my exercise. And then I'm also battling some type of unhealthy relationship somewhere. That might be with sugar, that might be with, with alcohol, right? That might be with another controlled substance type form.There's all types of. [00:30:00] Of needs, so to speak, and we tailor it to what you are needing from mindset, the psychological side, because a lot of what we do stems from there. A lot of the choices that we're making stem from there. And my object or or my process is I wanna help you identify why you're doing what you're doing.If we can get to the core root of what is driving you to make these food choices of what is driving you to have this relationship with food, this relationship with yourself, this relationship with exercise, it might be non-existent. You might hate doing exercise, but if I can change your relationship to exercise, you're gonna have a different psychological understanding of what that is.Therefore, then you're going to be more likely prone to holding onto it and doing it long term if we can make the relationship healthy and your understanding to that is a healthy understanding. , [00:31:00]right? So we work with emotional people that deal with emotional eating, stress, eating, binge eating, right?Unhealthy, toxic relationships with their body, with themselves, with all sorts of, of, of relationship issues in that format, De'Vannon: as it says in the, in the book of Proverbs, in the, in the, in the Bible. In all, in all that I get and get understanding . That's right. So, that's right. So we're gonna, so we've talked about some of the some of the skinny boy issues.Now we're gonna talk about some of the some of the obesity issues. Mm-hmm. . And before we get into Eric, Eric is his best friend's name and he's gonna tell us Eric's story. And but I, I wanted to read some of the statistics that we had discussed before because I feel like it leads into that. So I'll read this, you can talk about that, then you can tell us about Eric.Cool. And so it says emotional stress eating is something that affects between 83 and 88% of [00:32:00] Americans, and it produces 75, 70 5% of all overeating. A recent article by C N B C revealed that 11 million people die each year due to non-communicable diseases caused by poor eating habits. And I pulled this from David's website.He has two emotional eating support.com, and then David hernandez.co. Of course, all that will go in the show notes. So just speak to us about those statistics and then tell us about Eric. David: Look, these statistics are meant. Not to alienate or not to bring shame or bring judgment to anybody. They're simply to bring awareness to help us recognize that this is a potential threat to many people's lives.And if there's a threat, the threat is to let us know while, let's avoid falling into that, or let's avoid being impacted by that threat. Or if I'm in that threatful situation, right, [00:33:00] being impacted by this, let's do something about it. Let's change because I believe we can do something about everything. If we're still breathing, we can impact it and bring change.Right. And my best friend was one of these individuals. He was part of this sort of of, of group, of people growing up. He was that kid that just. Kind of never fit in. He was husky, he was slow. He wasn't good at sports. He was he w he didn't, he wasn't coordinated, right? So he always felt like this outcast, and I was the opposite.I was skinny athletic, into fitness, into sports, super coordinated. So we had this really unique dynamic of a relationship that I loved him for who he was, but I [00:34:00] ultimately also wanted better for him because he desired it for himself. And so, through the years, we'd work out together, we'd do things together.I'd, I talked to him as much as I could about health because he was overweight and he always battled with being overweight. And his, his, his battle was, I wanna release weight, but I don't know how. I don't know what to do. And that's where I would come in. Right? I'd give him as much as I could at the time to help him.18 years after high school, we split. I moved to Miami to study nutrition and culinary arts, and he stayed in Texas and we kind of lost, we went our separate ways, so to speak. We lost communication for several years, and at the age of 21, I got a phone call, you know, that he had passed away and I couldn't believe it.I said, what happened? How did this happen? So he got so obese and he became so desperate to get the weight off that he went to get a gastric bypass surgery. Two days later, he got an infection [00:35:00]and he died. Right? And that tore me apart because I started blaming myself. I started to feel guilty. I started to.Blame. Why didn't I do more? Why wasn't I there? Why didn't I support him more? Why didn't I help him get that weight off? So after about eight months of this self sabotaging guilt and shame, I finally had to come to a place and realize, well, there was really not much more I could have done. There had to be something within him that really ignited to do whatever it took to fight for his own health.But after that, I looked at, well, what were the reasons that kept him stuck in that it was his relationship with food, even though he wanted to release weight, his relationship with food was so specific. Eating, [00:36:00] eating processed. Right, eating junk food all the time. He would love chips with cheese and hot sauce, right?He would eat that as a snack. He would love burgers. He would love pizza. He would love all of these foods that were leading him to this path. And so his relationship with food and his own psychological understanding of food was what kept him trapped. He was an emotional eater. He loved sugar, right? And it didn't matter how much he worked out.It didn't matter how, how, how he tried to change his food choices. He just could not give up what he already knew. And so when we look at people that are in this place, right, according to the statistics, it's we're using food for the wrong reasons. Our relationship with food is an unhealthy relationship.Therefore, our psychological view of food or [00:37:00] understanding of food is also an unhealthy one. And if we do not fix this or get to the core of these reasons as to why a person is making these choices, to get 'em to become obese and stay obese. Doesn't matter what diet you do, doesn't matter what exercise program you follow.It doesn't matter what ills you take, what supplements you take. The root, the core of what makes you up is your relationship with food and your psych, psychology of food. Therefore, if we do not change that identity piece, you're gonna stay stuck and you're gonna continue to go back to these habits. Right?Go back to these choices. That's why these statistics are so alarming and so eye-opening that if we don't do something about it, somebody in that state can become one of those 11 million. Right? And it's a staggering number. Hmm. [00:38:00] because of this poor relationship with food. Right. Meaning the poor habits that we have with food.De'Vannon: And you know, if when people go out and get these surgeries and everything, if their relationship with food doesn't change, they're just getting the weight back. Anyway. That's David: That's right. That's it. That's what I'm getting to. A hundred percent. Right. And we see that through many stories. But here's the thing.People go to that place because they're desperate. Mm-hmm. , right? And oftentimes people are just desperate. Give me a quick fix. Give me something. Just, that's why trends and the fitness industry makes so much money off of this. I have news for many people out there. The fitness industry doesn't care about your life.They care about your. , which is why they take out new supplements every year, new trends, every six months, right? Because they're playing off of your emotions because they know you're vulnerable. They know, a, as humans, we become very vulnerable [00:39:00] and become desperate for answers. So therefore they go, oh, now it's this.Ha ha, we just made several billion dollars. Okay, now it's this. Ah, we just made more million dollars off of this. And supplement companies know this, right? And that is where a lot of this toxic relationship starts to happen. But if we can pull back for a moment and say, okay, let's stop chasing these quick fix, let's stop going to just a quick, simple solution.Let's stop doing that and let's simply focus on this component. It's a small piece, but it is a large makeup of who we are. If I can teach you, That your relationship with food happened at a certain time in your life. And if I can help you change your relationship with food, therefore impacting your psychological understanding of food, your own psychology of food, we're gonna be able to [00:40:00]rewire your brain, which is now going to make sure that you don't go back to these unhealthy choices.You don't change you, you change those issues. Now you change you as a person. Now you don't need a diet program now. You don't need supplements right now. You don't need these quick fixes because now you've changed your core essence. And if we can change you and your makeup, you're gonna be able to stick to it.De'Vannon: It's been a long time coming, but change is going to come, so. So in your coaching, do you have like coaches that work under you? Do you deal with everyone yourself? How does that work? David: Right now everyone is myself. I do have, you know, other people within my business that help me with the management that help me with different of the technical side of things.But right now it's really just oversee by me because I've set it up in a way where I can manage it through group [00:41:00] trainings. If it's a larger base format through one-on-one type coaching. I only take a certain amount of students at a time to ensure that I'm bringing the best coaching to every individual.And then we also work with corporations helping them create corporate wellness programs for their own employees. De'Vannon: Marvelous. Now I wanna talk about, like, get a little bit more granular about some of like the the, the the health implications of becoming overweight. So it's not really about like looking fat so much as what it is doing internally.Yes, we buried somebody who was. In their mid twenties, you know, and he, because he was overweight, he, he, he was like, like his, he couldn't breathe. Mm-hmm. . And so before he, when as he was dying, he was in the hospital on a breathing machine and they had to induce a coma. Mm. You know, to just basically [00:42:00] let him pass, because what, what a lot of weight does it, it like, it strains everything.So That's Right. If you're, if you have like extra as they call it in the, in the, in the health world, Addie, post tissue, that's the scientific way of saying fat. That's right. That's right. I learned that in massage therapy school. Yeah. So if, if you have extra weight hanging on you, then it takes strain on the body.So that means your organs have to work harder to do what they're doing. They're less efficient. Your blood doesn't flow as well, because it has all this. added post tissue. In fact, to move around. It's like it's like if you feel a car full of just a whole bunch of junk and weights, it's gonna drain the gas faster, it's gonna grind the gears faster.The brakes are gonna wear out quicker of the extra weight. If you pick up a 50 pound weight and then you put it down, you feel lighter. Yeah. And so when you lose weight, you can move about easier, you sleep better, your whole quality of [00:43:00] life. Hell, for me, when I've been, like, when I've had a extra weight on me, it was hard for me to reach down and like time my shoes and shit like that.Like absolutely little simple like that, that simply get, like, that goes a really long way for like mental health and emotional wellbeing. Just That's right. Being able to, and then, then, you know, you know, sexually too, sex drive goes up when the weight goes down. That's right. So diabetes, heart disease, stroke, sleep apnea, which is kind of what I was talking about earlier.But tell us about, you know, your take on how this affects people in their daily lives and internally in their organs. David: Well, think of, think of a Python or a serpent that com contracts and compresses, right, and strangulate. When we have an excess amount on our body of this tissue, it's literally doing that.It's compressing our organs together. It's compressing our heart, it's compressing our veins, it's [00:44:00] compressing our tissues, it's compressing our lungs, a lot of it, and it literally starts to impact us in ways psychologically, emotionally, physically, right in bed to sleep, to have sex, to have relationships with people, to communicate.Most people that become overweight or become. In any of the levels of obesity also become very introverted, right? They're shamed. They don't wanna go out, they wanna stay inside, they get depressed. There's a lot of impact that happens to our life, and it's not so much about simply living, it really comes down to what is your quality of life like, what type of life, what quality of life would you like to have?So if we're in this state of being overweight and possibly OB obesity, your quality of life [00:45:00]isn't at a good standard. It's not a good quality. And when it's not at a good quality, it starts to really do a lot of damage, not only health-wise, but emotionally, psychologically, right? Which tears us down even faster.That is why health is a responsibility that we have to give to ourself and it's bigger than us because it doesn't only impact you, but it impacts everybody around you. It impacts your relationships, it impacts your mood, it impacts the way you speak. It impacts your energy levels. It impacts your relationship with your kids, with your spouse, with your boss.It impacts your performance. And so that is why I'm such an advocate of understanding that health is a [00:46:00] part of my life, my makeup. If we can take the view of it, our perspective of it in that way, which is why I'm really on a mission to change the scope of how people view health, right? And how people view healthy living a lifestyle of healthy.Freedom versus simply wanting to lose weight, simply wanting to look better. That's part of it, but it's not the makeup that really is the impactful part that should be impactful for many people's lives. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. , very well stated man. Very well stated. And I, and I also wanna point out like, you know, obesity in younger people.Yeah. It's like, it's like, just because you don't have like negative health problems specifically today mm-hmm. , sometimes it, it's like a [00:47:00] lagging indicator. It's like if you keep that weight on you for too long it can. That's right. Cause you to have problems later. Because, you know, sometimes some people go, well, you know, I feel fine.All my labs look good. I'm able to mm-hmm. , you know, but the thing is, Is that is that shit is sneaky, you know, it catches up. That's right. And lab, lab results and tests only things have to get bad enough for the lab results to the lab tests to be able to pick up on it. That's right. You know, it's like if you don't have enough of a problem, you know, those, those tests are not that thorough where they can just pick up on a little bit of an issue.It has to be enough of it. Yeah. For it to manifest on a test, and then by the, sometimes by the time that shows up, then it's too late to really deal with it. Yeah. So what I'm saying is don't think because you are young and you know, and you, you, you're, you're eating all of this. You what, how you know you're [00:48:00] overweight, that your health won't like suddenly fail you one day.Yeah. Like, I don't want people to fall into this trap of thinking like, well, everything looks good. So That's right. David: Yeah. Yeah. Because in the same way, it, it's just one moment, one. One consistent choice away from making all of that flip. Right. And look, and it's the same for skinny people. Did you know that skinny people are, have the highest heart attack rates than anyone out there?No, because they believe, because their metabolism, right. Is keeping them in this state of being thin. They believe that, oh, I can eat all this. I can eat this food, I can eat this, this burger, I can eat all this. So their intake of fatty food, of sugary foods are at a higher rate oftentimes that then causes that heart attack to happen.Right. And so it, it's, it's, it goes back to what is our [00:49:00] relationship with food like, what is our psychology of food like? Because if it's unhealthy at some point or another, it is going to break. It's going to blow up. In the same way, when we look at a relationship with a partner at the beginning, there might be some arguments, there might be some fighting.Then comes a push. Then that push becomes a slap. If the relationship is unhealthy, it starts to get unhealthy. If we don't address it, it's just a matter of time for it to blow up, right? Which is why a lot of what we do when we're even talking about obesity, I believe obesity is learned. Because when we look at, well, what makes up a person to become obese, if we're talking about the relationship with food and their psychologic psychology of food, well, we learn that at some point we were taught to eat this way.Food was introduced to us [00:50:00] from our young age. Therefore, in those moments of us learning how to become a human, how to eat, how to react, how to act, it stemmed from home. So if growing up all we were given was frozen food, ramen noodles, fast food, right? , as you grow up, you're gonna stay with that same relationship and sometimes it's gonna magnify to go from ramen noodles to eating, I don't know, one cup to five cups or whatever it is, to another type of food.Very similar to that. To salty foods. Right? To sugary foods. And that is why it's important parents, right? Or those that are adopting kids. We've got to learn for ourselves how to develop a healthy relationship and a healthy psychology psychology of food so that then we can teach that to our young kids so that then they can grow up with a healthy relationship the same way.[00:51:00]De'Vannon: Yeah. And I feel like marginalized and a lot of like ethnic. Communities are impacted more by this sort of thing because, you know, when you growing up in the hood and in poverty like I did mm-hmm. You know, you know, you too, the parents and everything are too focused on keeping a roof over the head or keeping you from getting murdered or shot or whatever.Yeah. So we never talked about like, okay, this is you gonna balance this plate. Like I have a dietician now, and so, you know, through the Department of Veterans Affairs and awesome. So they're like, and nobody's ever explained to me before. Okay, so if you're going to eat, say, boiled eggs, you just need two of those per day.And then you be sure that the most of your plate is vegetables and not proteins. You don't actually need that much protein. That's right. Like actually laying up re reading the back of a food label, paying attention to mm-hmm. , the amount of servings not being all quick Oh, a hundred calories. But it's Tenten servings in the [00:52:00] Yeah, that's right.That's exactly thousand calories. Yeah. Yeah. And so, So I just really David: wanted to, and how much is the serving? 10 chips? 14 chips, right? And we're eating the entire bag saying, oh, okay, great. There's no problem with this. Right? And look, we're responsible for our own, for our own body, for our own health, right?It's our responsibility. But we also have to look at, look, our environment may not be helping us, right? Let's look at the American standard diet, right? It's not the best. So it's very quick to sometimes say, well, this is the reason. Well, our boss is the one that brought these, these things. My friend is the one that brought my coworker, brought these donuts here.But just because things are like that in our environment doesn't mean we have to give into our environment. Doesn't mean we have to conform to these things. It doesn't mean we have to say yes every time they invite us to go get ice cream or to go do this. Right. It really ultimately, like you said, is educating ourselves [00:53:00] and taking this as our own responsibility.Because if I can be responsible for my own health and I can teach those around me as an example piece of how to be responsible the same way, then we can start to really take control of this thing that has just really spiraled from us, right? Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Absolutely. And so we just have a few minutes left here.I want to So we, so we, you know, we, we, we've given people some very, very heavy Yes. Information right now. And so I wanna lighten it up for a little bit. it takes back heavy again because I'm gonna have you close us out towards the end with your near death experience. So let's talk about some ways that people can maybe implement this.So for me, what I found is that I'm, I'm, I'm from Wakanda, so I like it hot. I don't do Yeah. Temperatures below like 70 degrees. I'm like, bitch, it's cold. I'm [00:54:00] putting my teeth David: up, and running. I'm inside the house with the sweater and the, the, the ACS off , De'Vannon: right? I'm like, I, so I, I observed within myself. I work out when I w used to try to go to the gym, come like October, I'm like, fuck all that.I'll see y'all again in April. Yeah. And so my weight would go up in the winter. Right. So what worked for me was I had an empty room in my house and then I put a treadmill in there, which you can get them from like Walmart at Target. Yeah. A weight bench. I got adjustable weights so that they take up less.Beautiful. That's right. And then my dad gave me one of those multi-function machine thingies and so, so that I had to bring the gym to me, so that's perfect. Yeah. That's what worked for me. So what suggestions do you have for people to, to make it work for them or anything like David: that? Look, that's one example of a great way we can do that, but might, some people might say, well, I don't like working out in that format.Okay, great. It's [00:55:00] how can we keep things simple? If one thing you take away, I want you to take away this is asking ourselves, how can I make health or healthy living? Simple meaning, what's one thing I can do? That is simple that I can achieve, but that I can make it fun. We forget that healthy, a healthy life should be fun.And when we get to these states, they're darn well fun because you're able to do more. So in today, if we look at, well, all I can do is walk. Okay, great. How can we make walking freaking fun? Can we find a, a partner that we could do with? Can I listen to some awesome music? Can I watch a video while I walk?Right? Can I, can I skip? Oh, what are people gonna think? Who gives a rats? [00:56:00] What can you do that is fun? You like to. Put on a freaking show in your living room. You like to sing, freaking sing your heart out in the living room while you dance. That is part of exercise that is part of fun. I had a student a lady, she, she loved to country line dance.What would she do? She'd go dancing as many times as she wanted, as she could line dancing, and that was her exercise, right? Get some pool noodles and freaking sword. Fight with your partner, get some Nerf guns and play outside, right? Like, it really is about how can I make it simple and how can I make it fun finding something today that you can do?What is one thing? Oh, well, I don't have time for this. Oh, well, I don't have time for that. What can you do? Let's stop being negative and look at what's One thing I can do. Another thing that I tell my students is every time you go pee, when before or after you're done, do five squats. Do 10 squats. [00:57:00] How much does that take you?That literally takes you five seconds to do that takes you 10 seconds to do. You go pee 10 times. How many, how many squats did you already do in one day? 50 to a hundred squats in a matter of seconds. Right? So it's really about how can I simplify this thing? Because if it, anything that we do in life is overwhelming and complicated, look, oftentimes we overcomplicate it, right?But if we can simply keep it down to, to the core essence, what is health? Health is being active, okay? What's one thing I can do to be active? Go up and downstairs while you listen to some cool music. Go walking, go punch, get a punching bag, put somebody's face that you hate and punch the snot out of it. I don't know.Let's get creative because it's so able, it, it, it's accessible and it's so achievable, but it really just comes down [00:58:00] to us.I De'Vannon: just love to hear you speak and y'all, he has a, a book that he's working on that'll be out eventually and I can't wait to get my fucking hands on it. To, to, to, to devour the written version of this artistic poetry that you weave with your vernacular. And so Yes, yes. But where, where are you? The book anyway, David: we are, first draft is done.We're going. Making tweaks and adjustments and we should be working on that second draft here pretty soon and hopefully becomes the final draft and then we can send it off to, to printing. So we're excited. De'Vannon: Oh, oh my God. If you could get a book edited in three drafts, I would be impressed. It took me 10, I believe it mine.My, David: what helps is my wife is she's like a, a, a really strong, she [00:59:00] didn't get her English major, but she got her psychology major, but she is one of her strengths if she could go back to school, would be to become an English major. So she's helping me make sure that that thing could be ready as soon as possible.So we're excited. And what's the De'Vannon: premise of the book or the, or David: it's, the premise is really to introduce this concept, this understanding of the root causes of why we stay stuck in certain behavior patterns. And it's really to shine insight on, it's not just that. There's a flaw in you or that you can't be healthy, you can't release weight.No, no, no. We all can. If we can really simplify it to the core principles that makes up this, which is really our choices and our behavior patterns, right? So we're really breaking this down into a very simple, digestible understanding for people to learn this, this side of of health, because I believe it's gonna really be groundbreaking for people to [01:00:00] start changing their choices that yet then changing their behavior patterns to become healthier.De'Vannon: Okay. I can't wait to have you back on the show to discuss that. So, before you talk about your near death experience, it just occurred to me, I'd like you to, to address some, some people may say, well the healthy foods only at places like Whole Foods, and I can't afford that shit. , you know, what, what would you say to people who may have like, budgetary concerns or believe that Great question.The healthy food is, is super expensive. David: Yeah. Great question. Great question. I believe we can all be healthy in any budget, right? Because we don't ha we don't have to eat all foods, we don't have to eat everything in a grocery store, right? There are core principles that if we can adopt and understand, we can make good food choices.And that starts with understanding, well, what is a lean protein? There's, there's four makeups, right? In the way we should be eating. There should be [01:01:00] some type of protein in every meal. There should be some type of fiber, right? There should be a small amount of carb, right? To give us energy. Our, our primary food, our primary energy source from our body comes from carbohydrates, right?And then there should be some sort of essential fat. That is the key essential fat, right? Not just fat of all, of any kind. Right. So it really, if we can simplify it and look at, okay, what lean, what protein can I get that is inexpensive right now? Prices have gone through the roof. Okay. Can we get canned chicken, right?Can we get tuna? Can we get things that are proteins that are fairly inexpensive? We don't have to have the high processed foods. When we're talking about carbohydrates, there's low glycemic carbohydrates, meaning they have some type of fibroid substance that allows it to be [01:02:00] slowly dispersed in our body to turn into sugar, right?We don't need the chips, we don't need the ramen noodles, we don't need the pasta. We can find a list of low glycemic foods. Carbohydrates that help us find good sustainable energy. Right. We got our brown rice, which is very inexpensive, right. There is couscous, which is also fairly inexpensive, right? We have whole grain foods that we can find that are fairly inexpensive vegetables.Oh, well I don't like vegetables. Okay, well why don't we start with one that you do like that we can eat, right? And then, like you said, is having a vegetable with every food choice, with every meal, as many as we can. Right? So it's, again, it's about the education piece. It's about the knowledge piece. Can I understand what good or healthy relationship with food is so that I can then start to implement it?Right? So it's find these three cores. [01:03:00] If we can have a protein in every meal, if we can have a carbohydrate that is a low glycemic carb with every food, and if I can have a vegetable. More than likely we're already cooking within essential fat anyways, like an olive oil or some type of, of avocado oil, which is a, a essential fat.That's really all we need. Hope that's helpful. De'Vannon: Very fucking helpful. So tell us about your near death experience and then that'll pretty much wrap us up. David: Fantastic. I'd love to. 2018, I went on a mission trip to Haiti. Went to go work with a lot of help and support kids, orphanages. We have a close friend who's out there who has a, a men's kids, young men's orphanage, and a w and a young girl's orphanage.So we went to support him in what he was doing. I got back five days later. I was rushed to the hospital, what seemed to be a cold, but I had very high fever, about 110, 109. They [01:04:00] couldn't take it down with anything. Two days in there I was misdiagnosed six times. They couldn't figure out what w what I had.The third day there, there was a doctor from Puerto Rico who happened to be there. He overheard a conversation. He comes in and he says, I know exactly what you have. You have dengue fever and two other tropical viruses, and you're gonna feel like you're gonna die and you just might because there's nothing else that we can do.It's up to your body if it wants to survive. And he walked out. So, to give you a kind of a, a of a picture of this, I was at my strongest and biggest in terms of physique in size. I was actually training to compete the following year in body building. So I was about 245 pounds. I had about 25% body fat, a lot of muscle on me.I was the biggest I'd ever been. And after telling me this, I wanted to die. What we know about the dengue fever is that it's called the bone [01:05:00] crushing virus. It literally breaks up your bones from the inside, and it starts to shut down and eat your organs from the inside, right? It eats the muscle fibers, the muscle tissues, everything from the inside.My left lungs shut down, my organs were starting to shut down. My kidneys were about to shut down. I was one step away from hemorrhage and I wanted to die. That was it. I didn't wanna fight anymore. And so I just stayed there, literally unconscious for 10 days. And on the 10th day, the doctor came in and he said, well, we've got good news for you.You've beat this ding. And he said, had it not been because you were so healthy and you had so much muscle on you, you would not be here today. There's no reason you should be alive. And I said, well, if it wasn't because I was healthy and I had that muscle mass and because of God, I wouldn't be here today, right.Based on my faith. And so that experience turned everything around for me because [01:06:00] after I got out of the hospital, there was like this little internal, small voice that said, now that you've been given a second chance of life, what are you gonna do with it? What are you gonna do about it? And I woke up, I was like, wait, what do you mean?I thought I'm doing my best. I thought I could be more. I, I, I thought I, I am doing a lot with my life. But that really brought me into the turning point of what I was doing with my business, right? I was only, like I said, working with very exclusive clients. And at that point it was like, well, I'm not doing enough to impact as many people as I can with what I know.And that's what really put together body by purpose. That's what changed my whole concept, my whole value of life, my whole appreciation to people. Because when I, I, I made a commitment with my best friend that as long as I knew of somebody, I wanted to help them avoid what my best friend went through.But I really wasn't holding myself to that fully right? And so that's why I say that this experience, near death experience was the best [01:07:00] thing that could have happened to me. It changed my perspective on life. It changed my perspective on so many things. And obviously I don't take life for granted ever, but also the way I live life has also changed for me.How, De'Vannon: how in the hell does somebody catch UE fever? Is that from, so did something bite you? Is it air, mosquito bite?Well, , I'm glad That's right. I'm glad that your body decided to just, you know, everything happens for a reason. Yeah. And and it seems like the, the lower, you know, God takes us knowing he's gonna pull us back up. It's like we're stronger. That's right. For it. Yeah. I was devastated when I got H I V and I thought I was gonna die and I had this whole nervous breakdown, but now I'm like, you know what?I'm glad everything happened the way it did because it refined me, you know? Very well said. Yeah. So many different ways. And so, yeah. Alright. Yeah. So his website is [01:08:00] David hernandez.co emotion. His other website is emotional eating support.com. They click through to each other, and I will put all of this in the show notes with David's social media.Yeah. Well do you have any closing words forDavid: you're incredible. I mean, if y if I can get you to understand that and what that really means, that I don't know what life situation you might be in. There is still a makeup and a creation inside of you that is far greater than

In the studio, today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. David has focused on making MCB the best it can be. Learn about the concept of disability as a qualification, the Accessibility Technology Survey, the entrepreneurial program developed with NIB, and dig into the 32 reallotment projects MCB has done over the past few years.   David is the Idea Guy and shares a lot of information in this brief 30-minute conversation.   Find out more about what is happening at MCB:     MCB Home Page 2020 Reallotment Project Summary 2021 Reallotment Project Summary   Listen Here   Full Transcript {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. Thanks for joining me today, David. How are things going in Massachusetts?   David: Going very well. Looking forward to a great 2023. And thanks for having me again.   Carol: You bet. Me too. I love this 2023. I have my little resolutions for this year. You know, I really want to be intentional. That's one of my things. So I know I had you on the show over a year ago and we were talking about some of your great employment strategies during National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And you have had so many cool initiatives going on in your state that I think of you as the Idea Guy. I put you and Joe Xavier from California up there as two bold leaders in VR that we can all learn something from. Now, I know you've been keeping your head down and really looking forward focused on making your agency the very best it can be. And it also seemed like you were having some just really amazing employment successes for customers during COVID. So now more than ever, we need to take some serious steps to address the problem of spending VR dollars and improving outcomes. And you started looking at the problem when you first started at MCB and you hit the ground running. So let's dig in. I know we have lots to talk about. So David, can you remind our listeners about yourself? Where did you come from and how long have you been at MCB?   David: Sure. Well, I'm a consumer of MCB also, and being legally blind from a young age. I remember getting VR services back when I was in junior high school and high school. So that's really my first impression with MCB was as a consumer, as a young man. But since joining MCB in 2018, I came over from the Office on Disability, where I was the director of the Massachusetts Office on Disability. So when the MCB position opened up and got an opportunity to serve. And, making great strides for these past five years and looking forward to hopefully more time to be able to get our people employed and help lead our people to more independence and self determination.   Carol: That's awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about MCB? Like, how many staff do you guys have and how many customers are you serving currently?   David: Sure. So we're one of the first blindness agencies in the country. We often argue with Connecticut, if they were first, we were first, but we were established in 1906 with one of our first commissioners being Helen Keller. So we have a long history and track record of providing services for people with blindness throughout Massachusetts. We currently serve approximately 24,000 people in Massachusetts with all types of services. Massachusetts is a little bit different than many of the other states. We don't provide just for VR services, and that's not to diminish VR services, but we also provide what we call our services or social rehabilitation services and deafblind extended support services. So we serve people who are blind and deafblind and people with blindness and then additional significant disabilities. So that adds up. Our 24,000 people and our range of blindness really is the whole spectrum. So everybody from hi partial and legally blind like me all the way to somebody who has no light perception at all. And we know from the data that we've collected that actually there's probably more people at MCB as consumers who have visions closer to me than vision, closer to somebody who has no light perception at all. So we've got some data that's going to be coming out that I would encourage everybody to look at. We did an assistive technology survey recently with all of our consumers that really reveals information that I think people will take notice of because many times people were thinking that, oh, well, your consumers, they can't see, so they're not on the Internet or they're not taking part with this technology. And our survey really sheds new light on that. So stay tuned for that. You can check that out on our website, Mass.gov/MCB. It's really going to be an important survey when we reveal these results. It's going to be eye opening for people.   Carol: Well, cool. Yeah. Shoot me a note when that comes out. I'm really interested in seeing that. Do you also serve individuals like starting as babies? Like because some programs I know do that. We did not in Minnesota but I know some start very young with kids.   David: Yeah in Massachusetts we serve people from birth to death. So cradle to grave with all of our services and the social rehabilitation services that we provide are really geared around independence and self determination. So we will start providing services as soon as somebody gets that mandatory report of legal blindness and they're declared, which we are the keeper of, that we register somebody as legally blind after their doctor, their eye care provider, has provided us with that record. And then we get the services flowing, whether it's teaching Braille or providing assistive technology, orientation and mobility, training, all of these core services, we really believe getting those in place first.   Carol: Yeah   David: That's really going to help in terms of VR. It's setting the bedrock so people are already independent and self determined and then can focus on their career goals.   Carol: Yes. So smart. You've got the foundational pieces in place and early, you know, you're getting at the students early, which is incredible. That is great. That is great. So I really liked your getting grounded in that three part framework. You talk about it and I was reading it again on your website about the Path to Prosperity is Paved with Perseverance. Can you tell me more about that?   David: Sure. Carol, thanks. Really. I first said that publicly during the commencement address that I gave for Lesley University's Threshold Program. Lesley University has a great program for people with intellectual disabilities where they provide a college like experience. And back in 2017, when I was director of the state's Office on Disability, I had the great opportunity to be able to provide the commencement address there. And that's really where I first laid out that I believe the path to prosperity is paved by perseverance. Or what does that mean? I think that becoming employed is not a one step thing. There are many steps on that path on your career journey. So we really try to instill in to our consumers here at MCB that there is no get rich quick scheme. This is not a one click approach like so many of us are conditioned today through these devices and through technology. Just one click in your in. Getting a career, getting employed, getting your job, getting on that path to prosperity takes many steps. You got to hang in there because it's not easy. If it was easy, it would be done easily and everybody would do it. Everybody would be a multimillionaire. It takes many steps and depending upon your disability or in mass commission for the blind on your blindness, there's such a spectrum. And really we have to work with everybody individually because everybody is in a different stage in life. And some people are aging into blindness. Some people, it comes upon them quickly. Some people have it from a young age, some people come to it at mid age. It's so different for everybody. And we really just want to make sure that people are clear what the expectations that we're going to be with them through their journey along this path and that it does take time. All good things come in time. So that's really what the path to prosperity is paved with. Perseverance is about that you've got to persevere. These are challenging things. The very essence of being a person with a disability. Disability comes with challenge, It does. And so we try to get people to accept their disability, accept that challenge and then help them work through it. And so I believe in people and I believe anybody can become employed. I think work matters. I think it goes to the identity of a person. If I were to see you in the grocery store and we would have strike up a conversation, invariably one of the first questions that you or I would ask each other is, Well, so what do you do? And if you're employed, you're going to tell me about your job because it goes to the identity, it goes to who you are and what you're accomplishing. So work matters. Our consumers matter, and that's why we want to try to get them employed, because there's so many contributions in our community that we're trying to bring out for the benefit of our consumers, but also for the benefit of society. I really believe that our people have a lot to give and you've got to hang in there. That's part of being on the path to prosperity.   Carol: I think that is one of the cool things with blind services. It's very foundational. All the things that you have to learn. And I remember being at Minnesota blind and just seeing that, especially with people that came in that were new to their vision loss and it happened abruptly. Something happened, an illness or something overnight almost, and you wake up and you can't see and everything changes. How you read, how you get around in the world, how you get around in your home and your clothes and like how you do everything and having to learn all those foundational pieces first and getting that acceptance and then working on work skills because you can't just launch right into that when somebody goes, I don't even know if I'm wearing the orange socks with the black suit. I don't know what I have on.   David: One of the initiatives we've been working on and we keep advancing is something that I came up with about ten years ago that I've been trying to encourage people in VR to embrace, and that is the concept of disability as a qualification. I really believe that the lived experience that our people have to learn to problem solve around is a qualification in and of itself. Let me give you an example. If I were to take somebody with good vision and ask them to cross a busy intersection, they probably wouldn't think twice of it. Right?   Carol: Right.   David:  But to take one of our consumers who can't see and ask them to cross an intersection, the skills involved and the intestinal fortitude involved with crossing that intersection. You know what? I want that person on my team, if they're going to be able to go out and have the intestinal fortitude to be able to do that and then the demonstrated skill to be able to do it, because that takes sophistication, if that life experience does not qualify you for some type of role that deals with problem solving. How many employment opportunities are there out there for people who are good problem solvers, for people that have a solid backbone and won't just roll over? Right?   Carol: Right. I love that you say that.   David: Those are qualifications, those matter.   Carol: They do matter. So I'm just going to say a little thing about me. When we were in Minnesota at the blind agency, all of the leadership team and the VR counselors, the staff, you had to go through six weeks of sleep shade training, so you were under sleep shades for six weeks. And so doing that as a new director myself, having that experience, it's just a taste, but we did go to one of our Adjustment to Blindness Training Centers. We had the experience of the classes all day under sleep shades. I still remember at the end of the day, walking out. I had my cane. I was still had my sleep shades on. I'd taken them off and I got in my car. I scared a lady that was across the street. She's like, That blind lady is driving now, but getting that very firsthand experience about that problem solving that goes into everything you do during the day that is so interesting and very applicable to the world of work, for sure.   David: Yeah. So that's why we're pushing disability as a qualification. We believe that those lived experiences are going to help employers and a really good qualifications for employees.   Carol: Yeah, that's very cool. Very interesting thought. So I want to take you back to 2020. You asked for reallotment dollars, but you had some very specific initiatives you wanted to accomplish and in fact, you were dealing with the pandemic and you wanted to figure out your role in pioneering a path forward in a post-COVID recovery. So talk to me about what went into that 2020 that ask for reallotment dollars and kind of how you framed up all of those initiatives.   David: Sure. Well, we wanted to make the best use of our time knowing that we were not going to have the community interactions and be able to travel freely like we had been doing. So we said, let's study this and let's come up with some things now, some of the things we had put in motion, some of the plans that we had put in motion were prior to COVID. So it seemed that we were prescient on some of them, like our ad campaign we did, What's Your Vision? So now we've been on Massachusetts television with our announcements, not just public service announcements, but paid ads to be able to get the message out to employers, Hey, we've got candidates for you and get the message out to our consumers that, hey, we'll work with you to get on this path to employment. So there's campaigns like that. But then we followed it up. Once we knew COVID was in there and we did our Quest for Independence, which is a graphic novel which is aimed at not only the consumer, but people in the consumer's sphere of influence, their brothers, their sisters, their fathers and mothers and guidance counselors and people there so that those people can understand the path to employment that we lay out in the process that we do. So it starts at pre training and goes through all of the steps along the way and we make it like a questing journey. We made it like kind of cool and try to put it in a format that people of Pre-ETS age would be more apt to buy into. So many of the VR documents are black and white text only small print, like who's reading that? Who's consuming that? Certainly not a 15 or 18 year old person that we're trying to get interested in the workforce. So whether it's things like that or whether it's studying Disability as a Qualification that we just talked about or trying to do some of the other surveys that we put together, we really tried to make the best use of our time. I think in all total now we're up to 32 or 34 reallotment projects that we've done over the past three or four years.   Carol: Oh my gosh!   David: Yeah. We've really tried to make good use of our time and build the catalog of information. And all of this is available to VR people if they want to visit our website again, Mass.gov/MCB. All of the re allotment projects are out there. We have studies on the Built Environment in the Workplace. We have studies on Disability as a Qualification on Assistive Technology. So many different topics we have data on as well as these ad campaigns. We did one with Sleep Machine recently. We worked up 16 different types of consumers and interactions that it's not a one size fits all approach. We really got it into 16 different approaches, so it tries to suit all of the different demographic areas, and that's a VR approach that we took so many different projects that we encourage people to find out more on our website.   Carol: I know you did a lot of data analysis. There were a lot of projects around different data analysis, so maybe talk about one or two of those and how you used that data to now kind of inform your programming or whatever you're doing now at the agency.   David: Well, the assistive technology one is a perfect example like. When I came to MCB and I said, I want to do a survey, they kind of like chuckled and I'm like, Why do you want to do? And I said, Well, how many of our people have email or how many of them use the Internet? I remember distinctly without naming names, but some really veteran VR people saying, none of our people use the Internet Commissioner or they don't do this. Well, come to find out that 70% use it daily. That right there was like informing our programming because no longer was I going to allow this myth to be put forward that our people don't use the Internet. That's just not so. Now we've got to make sure that we're making these sites accessible. So a recent proposal that I've been working on is a registered apprenticeship program for our consumers who are blind. Who better to make these websites accessible than people who are already using screen reader technology? So we're trying to get two registered apprenticeships, one in making web pages accessible, and then the other for making other online things accessible apps and forms and documents online and things like in the electronic space. So we're working right now with the Department of Labor, but we're also seeking other states. You need five states to be able to make a cohort to do it. So if people are interested in joining our cohort, please contact us and let us know if you want to join in this registered apprenticeship program that we're going to be launching soon.   Carol: That's super cool and very smart and needed. I mean, there's a lot of sites, a lot of websites in a lot of trouble because they are not accessible. I love that you did the Assistive Technology survey. I've thought for years, like the invention of Apple and the iPhone and all of that single handedly changed just information for people who are blind, visually impaired because that device is accessible and it was built-in. There's so many cool apps now and things out there that our folks are using now. I know you also contracted out for your comprehensive Statewide Needs Assessment and that that isn't necessarily new. A lot of states do that because it's much easier to contract with someone than do it yourself. But what was different about that particular assessment and how do you use the information that you got from that?   David: Yeah, again, I think that was the one where we put it out there and the awarded bidder I think was the public consulting group. So they're a pretty big firm. They had worked in other states before. I think one of the things that they had worked in was like Indiana. And so we work with them. Obviously our sister agency, MRC, we wanted to make sure that we were kind of on the same page as well. So I think that helped and really it helped strengthen the things that we already knew we were doing well. They really came in and were able to look at that and say, Yeah, you know what, you should probably keep doing that. Did identify some areas and we've made some adjustments as well. And I think now in this post COVID world, we were prescient that we were trying to already get our people to be able to work remotely, whether it be our staff, who a significant amount of our staff are actually our consumers also, which were very prideful in that they'd been remote prior to COVID. And so now the trends in employment with less and less people in an office environment, we really were again, a little bit ahead of the curve in trying to predict that We think that's where the workforce is going. There's going to be more and more opportunities that are away from an office environment. So if you can work online effectively, that's just going to increase opportunities for our consumers.   Carol: Oh, I agree 100%. So how has all of this helped your numbers? Like where are you at today? Do you feel like have things moved up or are you getting customers back? How about people getting into employment, all these different initiatives? Has it led to some success and outcomes?   David: Yes, it has led to success and outcomes. Our numbers are up generally across the board. There's a couple of exceptions, but things we really like to talk about is the nature of the jobs that we're able to help our people navigate into. And just to be clear, we are very up front with our people. People like, get me a job, get me a job. We're very upfront with them and say, we can't get you a job. We can help you get you a job. We don't get anybody jobs. Our consumers get themselves jobs. We're there to help and build value and work within whether it be any of the networks that we develop with stakeholders or using the existing public systems or education, whatever the case may be. It's consumer driven, it's consumer informed, and it's consumer driven. We make that clear that really we're just a partner in this, and it's up to the consumer to be able to make the final decision. One of the things that I think is very successful is that there's more choice than ever before. I think our consumers were faced with maybe one opportunity, and if they didn't take it, it was like, all right, let's start all over again. Or, you know, now let's go on another six month search. Now our consumers are being presented with multiple offers, multiple opportunities. That's a really good sign. Another really good sign is the nature of the jobs that they're getting. We're now going past just the entry level job or the base job, and we're into more management. Some of our placements are six figure placements. These are consumers that many of them have been with us for a while, but some are fairly new. So like before, this is where I think our ad campaign is really helped us because consumers who maybe hadn't approach MCB before are now approaching MCB. So we're doing our best to reduce the stigma of what it means to join MCB. So many people before who were low vision, high, partial, legally blind...   Carol: Yes...   David: ...didn't really feel that they were. Well, I can see I'm not really blind. Well, if you're legally blind, then you're entitled to the services. And so people with existing track records of employment that they've been in the workforce for 20 years and now they've lost their vision. Before, many of them were just leaving. And then we would find out five years later, well, I left because I was depressed or I left because I couldn't do the job. Now we get to them more quickly and actually work with them and the employer to let them know, Hey, we're there for you. We're there to provide these reasonable accommodations. We're there to emphasize the great skills that you have. So many of these things can be remediated now with technology. So we're seeing six figure placements. We're seeing management level placements. These are all very encouraging signs. But again, they didn't just happen overnight. It's the culmination of all of these programs working together. And most importantly, let me just give a great shout out to our counselors, our VR counselors develop these relationships and work with these consumers. And really, they're part of the secret sauce here, sitting at their kitchen table with them and their families and letting them know that we're going to be there with them. I think that's irreplaceable. And you can create whatever program you want and fund it however you want. At the end of the day, that needs to happen. Without that, I don't think we'd be having the success that we're having.   Carol: I love that. I know your PSA campaign was really clever because I had looked at the ads. Very cool. Are you still continuing to do that? Is that still going on?   David: Yeah. So we're looking at another reallotment project to fund another ad buy. We're going to have a dialogue with RSA about it. I think we can show that we got results from it and if we can, I'm hoping that they'll say that that's a good use of the money. You know, right now we've gone through some change. We've had a significant aging of our MCB workforce. We've had retirements of people that have been at the agency for 40 years, 38 years, 39 years. So I think COVID really helped in a way where it gave people a pause to be able to adjust. And that's not only our consumers and our counselors, but really like the whole workforce. And as a result, many people are saying, you know what, it's now time I've put my time in and it's time to give it up to the next generation, which is good. But it's a challenge because now we spent a significant amount of time trying to backfill these positions and like something with orientation and mobility. I think one of our O & M people we got from California, another one from Michigan. So hunting around trying to find talent can be challenging and we're certainly not trying to raid other agencies or muscle other competition out because Massachusetts is the state where the cost of living is quite high. We want to make sure if we're getting people here, that they're positioned for long term success. So we've definitely been trying to navigate some of that, as I think many of my colleagues can probably resonate with on at their state level.   Carol: Oh yeah, that is the hot topic of the day. The mass retirement and kind of exodus of people out of VR. I know when I was at Minnesota, this is, you know, ten years ago I walked in the door in HR hands me a list saying I think it was over 50% of the staff were eligible to retire in the next three years. I just went, what? And they did, you know, people did because people have been with the agency. They all started together. They'd been there 30, 40 years together. And they all went. And then that just got exacerbated by the pandemic. People going out the door for sure. If people are wanting to find your PSA information, is that also on your website still?   David: It sure is. And it's on our YouTube channel as well. When I came to MCB, we had no social media. Now we've got Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and our own YouTube channel and all of these avenues that we've gotten such great input from our consumers and their families because, yeah, it's about serving the consumer, but it's also about serving their families because that's oftentimes the people that are working with the consumers just as much, if not more than our counselors. So it's about empowering the whole consumer. And what I mean, the whole consumer, I mean, it's their extended family. It's their spouse or their son or their daughter or their niece or their nephew. They're aunt, their uncle or their friend or neighbor. It takes a village. And we've had good success with that approach.   Carol: Great. It absolutely does take a village. Can you give that website address one more time?   David: Yeah, sure. It's. Mass.gov/MCB. So, its Mass dot gov. Forward slash m c b.   Carol: Excellent! Yeah. Because I know you have a lot of really good stuff out on the website, so I know you are always thinking you don't ever stop. You're on to the next thing. So what's up on deck next for MCB?   David: Yeah, I think we just need to continue to now emerge from the pandemic and continue to assimilate so many new staff that we've got. I mean, I think of our 130 staff, about 40 of them are new within the past couple of years. So there's a big assimilation going on, number one, but really making sure that our community feels safe to get back out there and independent and self determined, ready to go. That's job one.  Is getting that adjustment to blindness, that acceptance of blindness, continuing to find new consumers to be able to provide the services to. Then once we do that, then at the tried and true, it's wash, rinse, repeat on what our counselors and what VR has established so well. It's mentoring and then interning and then interviewing and then getting a job and then staying upwardly mobile in that job and trying to move up into management or entrepreneurial. And one of the new things we're working on that we piloted last year successfully with National Industries for the Blind is this entrepreneurial program. We really believe that that is the future for many of our consumers that are interested in a small business opportunity, and that is establishing an e-commerce presence online where you own your own thing and you're really an entrepreneur at that point, selling products and services online through their accessible platform. For years, we tried to get our consumers interested in selling on Amazon or eBay or these other e commerce platforms. But the platform itself, the app, the technology itself was not accessible to screen readers working with the national industries of the blind and tremendous credit to them for investing a significant amount of their time and resources into making an e commerce platform that is accessible for screen reader technology. This is a huge opportunity for people with blindness who are interested in being their own business owner online in the e commerce space. Like I said, we piloted last year. We proved the proof of concept. We have another class now going in. I would encourage anybody who thinks they have a consumer interested in this space to contact national industries of the Blind. Mention the pilot with Massachusetts that we've done. They'll know what you're talking about and get your consumers enrolled because this really is the future and it's a great opportunity.   Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a super smart idea when I was reading because that was one of your re allotment projects was to study it and to look at it and to figure that out so that can actually be a viable option for your customers.   David: That's right. We didn't just rush in horns first. We studied it, we spent time, looked around, conferred with NIB, and NIB has done a great job. Like I said, they've really made a major investment here and using their Ability One shops that they've had, they have such a tremendous network of providers and vendors that many of the products, I think it's about half of the products are actually made by blind people also. So it's almost like a double win when you really get down to it. To be able to sell these products online. We're very optimistic about it. Good things start humbly and that's where we started. We started with the first class. I think we started with 12 people. Then it went to 6 because some people didn't have the screen reader skills necessary that you would need. Then from the 6,, 3 of them dropped out because they didn't want to own the lemonade stand. They just wanted to work the lemonade stand right there from the 3. It went to 2 and then 1 ended up actually seeing it all the way through and becoming profitable. So we've proved the proof of concept. We just now need more consumers. So if you've got consumers in your area, let's get them going.   Carol: Well, it always starts with 1. You need one, you know, and then there's 2 and then there's 3 and it keeps moving up. That's great. At least it gives another opportunity. And it really is the gift that keeps on giving. You know, when you look at using those reeallotment dollars, it doesn't just benefit you. In Massachusetts, the work that you're doing can benefit the whole country.   David: Yeah, I really think that, Carol. And if people again go to Mass.gov/MCB, look at the, again now, I think it's either up to 30 or 32 different real allotment projects that we've done. There's quite a bit of information in there from studies to these campaigns to the Quest for Independence guide that we did, all of these different things. they're there for everybody else to be able to use. If we've had success, you can just kind of repurpose it and have success in your area with it.   Carol: Well, and your quest to  independence. Guide You've been being very modest about it, but that is hilarious because it's a comic book and you're the superhero. In it. It is the coolest thing. I thought that was the most clever thing I had seen in that Pre-ETS space.   David: Well, thanks, Carol. If it leads to one more employment, then we'll be pleased.   Carol: Yeah, that's cool. So, David, I know there's a lot of new directors across the country like you were a few years ago. What kind of advice would you give them as they're wrestling with ways to effectively spend their funds?   David: Yeah, it would really be, Don't just settle for what has been done previously. I've found the people at RSA to be very supportive, to be willing to listen, and just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. Find out what your consumers need and then figure out how to backtrack that to these federal dollars to be able to get them the resources that they need to be successful, whether it's a small business enterprise or Randolph Shepherd or they want to go to kind of a more traditional route of getting employed, whatever the case may be. There's a program that can be crafted to individualize everybody so that they feel like the job they're getting is the job for them, because that's what we want you to spend so much time getting somebody in the workforce. We want to make sure these people are staying in the workforce, staying gainfully employed, because again, we really believe that independence and self determination, that's the thing that you've got to get through so that people can long term stay viable on their own.   Carol: Well, well said. Thanks so much for being on the show today. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time and I just really wanted to get your message out to our listeners and have folks look at your website and the very cool things you can do. I know there's a synopsis of all of your projects so people can get a really good sense of what you did and what you learned. I think it was brilliant, so I wish you the very best of luck in 2023 and thanks for joining me today.   David: Carol, Thanks so much. You do such a great job. I appreciate you. Thanks for everybody for listening. And please contact us if we could be a support in any way.   Carol: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

David: I want to talk a little bit about the hospital, but I'm also curious about your life. So first, just tell me your name and what you do at Kijabe Hospital. Linette: My name is Linette. I'm a medical officer, general doctor at Kijabe. I work in the Internal Medicine department in general wards.  When COVID was here in COVID ward – now it's respiratory center, and in ICU/HDU [Intensive Care Unit/High Dependency Unit] Unit. David: Why did you end up with adults? Linette: [Laughter]Well, I love internal medicine. Anything to do with Internal Medicine, I love it. Whether it's an adult or a baby. I just love it. I feel like it's easier and maybe it's easier because of where I went to school. . . Where I went to school there's a lot of lifestyle diseases, less infectious diseases.  David: When you say lifestyle, what do you mean? Linette: Like hypertension, diabetes, things like that, which is most of internal medicine. And so, it was not like Kenya where you have infectious disease to think about. I feel like that was my foundation when I came for internship, I found this safe place, this comfortable place in internal medicine.  So, it's like, oh, I know that. It's not new to me because I've seen it, and that just made me love it more and more because I felt like I know that and now I can build on that.  I mean, it turns out you don't know anything.  You don't know what you don't know! But it's fun to build on that one. Yeah. So [Internal Medicine] is my favorite one. And why adults? I'm very emotional when it comes to kids, and my pediatric rotation was full of a lot of tears. So, I was like, “No, I need to like, get myself together and be a doctor and look like a human. . .what?  Hard-board or something. . .like nothing is touching me, I'm just okay.” But inside I'm all mushy. So, I feel like kids really remove that from me. And then adults are like, “okay, I can cry about this later, let's deal with it now.” But then kids, cry now!  [Laughter] David: That's great.  You did your you did your internship at Kijabe? Linette: Yes. Yes. David: Tell us about medical school. How in the world did you go to school where you went to school? Linette: I went to school in Russia, the Russian Federation. And it was just it was a miracle of sorts because I had no idea that I could go to school in Russia. In fact, I didn't even want to be a doctor until my last year of high school when I feel I felt the Lord telling me to be a doctor. And I was really against it for like a month. I spent a month arguing with God in my closet. Like, really? You really want me to do that? I've never wanted to do that. I want to be a lawyer. I want to be a scientist. I want to do research. I had all these other plans. David: Anything but medicine. Linette: Yeah, anything but medicine. Everyone wants to be a doctor, but who is going to take out the trash?  Who's going to be the mechanic? Who's going to be the engineer?  I don't want to be a doctor, everyone's going to be a doctor.  It turns out not everyone became a doctor - I became the doctor! God has a sense of humor because the thing that I was fighting so hard not to do turned out to be the thing that I do the easiest.   I went to med school and God make it made it so easy for me to learn and to understand the concepts. . .to understand physiology and how the body works and what drug goes with that. So, I was like, "Hey, man, it's good to follow what you feel God is saying to you." And boy, am I glad I did that.  And then Russia. A friend of mine visited from Russia. I hadn't seen her for years. She was in second year [of medical school]. She told me Russia is good. David: She's Kenyan? Linette: She is Zambian. At that time, I was living in Botswana, that's where I grew up. So, my Zambian friend comes home for holiday and I'm like, "Hey, long time, I haven't seen you. It's been years. Where have you been?" She's like, "I've been in Russia." What are you doing? "I'm doing medicine." And I'm like, okay, that's amazing. I hadn't yet agreed with this whole plan to do medicine in my heart, but I thought, "This is a good like idea to look into Russia as a school option."  I didn't want to stay in Botswana to do my university. So, I asked her questions, and she said that teachers are good, the groups are small when you study so the teachers can follow you very closely. And she said everything except that they don't speak English. [Laughter] And I feel like God literally blinded me to that because I asked every question except, "What language do they speak?" I mean, I know there is Russian, but surely, surely, they speak English, right? They're white! No, they don't. And I found that out when I landed in the country. [Laughter] So, I out of curiosity, I study Russian. I'm so excited.  I'm going to Russia! And then, I land in Russia and it turns out I have survival skills now. I decided, "Well, I'm here, so I have to keep a positive mind about it and learn it as fast as possible so that life can get easier." And that's what I did. So, I learned it and life got really much easier. David: And so that was how long? Five years? Six years? Linette: Yes, six. David: And then. So, you're from Botswana. How did you get to Kenya? Linette: I'm from Kenya. David: Okay. Linette: I was born in Kenya. My parents are Kenyan, my dad is a civil engineer.  When I was five, my dad applied for a job with the government of Botswana, and he got it. He moved to Botswana to look for greener pastures. Then the family followed him. So that's where we all grew up, me and my sisters, except for my youngest sister, who was like a bit young when they moved back to Kenya when I was in third year in Russia. When they moved back now, home became Kenya again. So, when I finished with Russia, I came home to Kenya. So now I had to learn a new language, Swahili [laughter] because, I know how to say hi, but everything else is a blur because I was five when we left. But because I had learned Russian, I was like, "This is nothing impossible. Surely it's just a language." And now I speak it fairly well. I can speak Swahili and no one knows I'm not really Kenyan, but when I speak English, they know because my accent is not Kenyan. David: Yeah, Botswana - that's like the usually the voice actors and people like on TV in America, like that's the pure like, classic African accent.  So, like in Disney movies it's always a Botswana accent. David: And so, what were challenges? Did you have time off in between in between finishing medical school and starting internship? How did you end up at Kijabe? Linette: I had a whole year of nightmare. None of my papers were Kenyan, so I went through such a terrible time. I went to try and verify my degree and they said I had to verify my high school certificate. And then when I went to try and verify that, they said I had to verify the primary school certificate. And most of that was like, we need a physical letter from the governing body in Botswana. I have no family left there. How am I going to get like a real letter from them? But thank God for friends. I asked a couple of friends to help me, and they sacrificed time from their jobs to help me chase down that. It took a whole year from the time that I came back to the time that I started internship. And even after doing the whole verification thing, turns out you don't just do internship, you do pre-internship, which is like an internship, but then it doesn't count. And then you write board exams. So, I did that. And then just as I was about to ballot for a government place in the internship, a cousin of mine asked me, “have you tried Mission Hospitals?”  She had worked for Mission Hospitals and she feels like they're great. Linette: I was like, "I've never thought of that. What's that?"  She told me, "the last interview is next week, Monday, find a way there."  So, I found a way there [laughter], showed up, did the Kijabe interview and I fell in love with Kijabe just from talking to the doctors on the panel. Dr. Arianna was on that panel that day. I was I was so in love with Kijabe. I was like, I'm done. I'm going to Kijabe!  I didn't even interview the other two places. I'm going to Kijabe - I'm not going anywhere else. So, I went home all happy. I'm like, "I'm going to Kijabe, I'm going to Kijabe!" I don't know, that was just I was just so sure. I fell in love with this place before I came here. And since I came, I've not been able to leave since, like you think about going anywhere else and you're like, okay, so what's life going to be like there? Nope, I'll stick to this one. David: What particularly do you like about it?  Linette: I love the compassion with which people approach medicine.  I mean, there is science and there's evidence and there's all that. Anyone can get that anywhere, you know? But there's a human touch and aspect that you can't buy anywhere. You can't buy that. And then a lot of these doctors are Christians. . .and missionaries, they're here not because their homes are not comfortable, or their countries are not good.  I mean, I've been a foreigner. I know it's home that's always best. It's very uncomfortable to be a foreigner sometimes, but the [missionaries] are here because they feel like their call to humanity is higher or greater than their comfort.  I feel like because God told me to be a doctor, it's great to be around people who take medicine like a calling. There's also the evidence-based approach, you know.  It's not quack medicine, it's not abracadabra. It's, "Okay, I read this paper and it says, 'This approach is better for this disease.'" And that's what we do. We do that because the best idea wins.  The best idea is tested. It's tried. It's been through trials and studies and that idea wins. So, every protocol changes according to the idea, the evidence that has come up. The system of correction for mistakes, audit, is taken very seriously. Audit helps us change protocols, change our approach. It's one thing to say, "we will do" and then it's another thing to actually do. It's a culture that goes on from the highest doctor to the lowest staffer.  Even a patient assistant adheres to the protocol. That's a cultural thing that you can't buy. If people's mentality is "I'm here to get my money and go," then they would never do that. But the fact that we say something in a meeting, and it actually happens - that's wonderful.  David: Wow. That's awesome. I love it. So, internal medicine. . .What's good about it and what's hard about it? What do you love and what's the most challenging? Linette: Let me start with what's hard. What's hard is at least once or twice a week, there is this one patient, who, I'm like, "I have no idea what's going on here." And then, once in a while, there's this patient who everyone is like, "I have no idea what's going on."  Really? That's mind boggling. But then that's also why it's great because every time you think you know, you don't know.  You don't know what you don't know. But then, every time, you find out there's more to learn. I love that opportunity to grow.   I like places where I can be put under pressure to grow.  There's no bigger force or pressure than the feeling of "I don't know." Then there's this culture of mentorship that Kijabe has. I have awesome seniors who don't make me feel dumb for not knowing. So, when I don't know, there's always someone a phone call away who might know. And if they don't know, they're so honest. I love that they're so honest when they don't know. And they're always willing to offer advice on, "have you tried this, and have you tried that and how do you check this and that?" Then they teach you how they think so that you can be a proper mentee. I love that. That's what I love about internal medicine in Kijabe. I don't know about internal medicine in any other place, but here, it's like you're free to be dumb if you're dumb and we will help you get smart. David: I don't think that's a problem for you. You're very humble. Doctor Tony Nguyen is the head of internal medicine right now, and he was telling me that. . . Linette: He's my boss and he's awesome. David: Oh, that's great. He was talking about ventilated patients, that a lot of your patients are younger. Why do patients come to you? What are their issues? Linette: Well, our vented patients are younger, and most of that is because of our resource limited setting. Because of our resource limited setting, we can't afford to intubate everyone. So, our protocol favors a younger patient with less chronic disease going on. It's very sad that we have to make that decision, but we only have a very small amount of resources - in this case ventilators. David: So how many do you have that are working right now? Linette: We have five good vents.  David: I think your definition of good is different from mine. Linette: Like, it keeps the patient alive. That's good enough. David: So, that's the distinction. There's actual good, because you have some good [ventilators] and others from 1953 and it's a small miracle. . . Linette: It's working. It's working. (laughter) David: But that makes me very nervous. Linette: It does. It does. But then we live by faith. I mean literally surviving on small miracles. So, there's two really, really good ventilators that have this nice screen. David: The GE ones? Linette: Yeah. They have all these screens that you can read. And then there's these [old] ones which are guessing some of the stuff in the background.  David: It's totally manual, right? You have dials, you can adjust, but there's no waveform, there's no tidal volume, you're just. . . Linette: Guessing. There's nothing to see. It's just put in the settings that you want and hope and pray that that's it. Then if that doesn't work, you try something else and see if that works. And that's how we live. Imagine. David: Yeah, not that that's not good, but that's what I'm hoping we can improve on someday. Linette: If I have five solid ventilators, I think I can depend on. I mean, I think they can save five lives.  David: And so, you're saying you can have protocols for younger people.  What about - I don't know if you call it a dance or juggling - interactions between different departments work because? I mean, patients are surgical or medical somewhat, but there's a lot of overlap. Linette: Yes. It's a lot of teamwork that's required because a lot of patients in the ICU are surgical. But then if they're in the ICU, they're your patient [medical team]. They are surgical, but they're still yours. And that [relationship] needs a lot of communication between us, a lot of understanding, because sometimes we see with our eyes the medical stuff and they see with their eyes, the surgical stuff.  And we don't see what they see, and they don't see what we see. So, every time we make decisions, it's important to like double back and ask them, "Okay, we want to do this. Is this going to affect what you are doing in any way? Is this going to harm the patient instead of help the patient?" Because sometimes you might do something and maybe cause bleeding or maybe it does something that we didn't intend to do, but the surgeon would have known that, and we didn't. So, it takes a lot of teamwork to survive a patient in ICU.   Linette: Sometimes when we are admitting patients, we feel like this patient might need intubation and we might not be able to give them that resource, we try our best to refer them at the door before they even get to the point of deteriorating and needing the intubation. We just tell them, "Look, it's not looking good.” Usually, it's the family we are talking to because [the patient] is so badly off, and we tell them “It's not looking good. It's likely they're going to need intensive care. We don't have room, please go to another place.” Some of them refuse. Oh gosh, some of them refuse. They're like, “we don't have anywhere else to go.”  Those are tough because they end up staying in Casualty forever. And then we end up like creating an Intensive Care Unit in Casualty because you can't just watch someone die. That's a hard thing. And then some of them die. That's the painful part because you're like, "If we had this, they wouldn't have died," but we don't. David: Do you have a sense of what it would take? I mean, we want to get we want to get some new ventilators. We want to get ten, maybe more, high dependency unit beds. What would it take to treat everybody you think we should be treating? Linette: Oh, my gosh. A lot of money! David: Well, not in the money sense, but how many HDU beds? How many ward beds? What would it take to do everything you would love to see us doing? Linette: That would be crazy, because, if I compare it to what other hospitals are actually achieving, they can have anywhere from 20 to 30 or 40 ICU beds and we have 5. So that's a huge dream for us.  And then we have ten HDU (High Dependency Unit) beds. You can imagine if they have 20 ICU, they have like double that for HDU and we have only 10. So, it's going to take that much more muscle.  Then the other issue is staffing, because we are so few in our department and a lot of our people are missionaries. It's wonderful because they are here to help, but then they can't always be here to help because they have their homes to go back to. So, we have a lot of visiting doctors who come in. Oh my gosh, when they come, we're like, oh, we can breathe a little bit, you know.  We breathe for like a month. And then they go and then we're dying again.  We have ECCCOs who are in ICU every week. David: What does that stand for? Linette: It's Emergency and Critical Care Clinical Officer. They are clinical officers who have a higher degree in critical care and emergencies. They're awesome. Awesome. They run the ICU very well. A whole ICU really depends on an ECCCO. If the ECCCO is good, they respond to the emergency quickly. They call the doctor quickly. And they a lot of times you get to [the patient], they're already intubated.  They are so good. They respond to emergencies very, very quickly.  So, there's always one just one in a whole week who does the day and then one in a whole week who does a night and then one in a whole week who does casualty. If we were to ever expand, I think more beds would be overwhelming for one ECCCO.  And sometimes we have two because there's one and then a student. But then sometimes that could slow the [senior] one down because they're trying to do teaching, you know, like they're trying to show the other one. So that would take more doctors, more critical care nurses who by the way, are so awesome.  David: And there's training, there's a lot of training going on. This is one of the things I look at. I think, "five beds." There's the patient side. There are more patients who need help.  But then the training side, Oh my goodness. We have a critical care nursing program. We have the emergency and critical care clinical officer training program. Linette: Yes. David: And when I just look at it, I think we need to take care of more patients so they can, to use an exercise term, do more push-ups.The more patients they see, the better they will be coming out of school. Linette: It's much better for them. David: And then you're also taking the nurse anesthetists. They come through. Linette: On rotations, higher degree nurses doing their rotations and the anesthesia residents and surgical residents. David: Oh, and surgical. So that's part of their that's part of their residency? Linette: Yeah, there are a lot of learners, actually. Our teams are more than the patients by far. By far. David: That's at least 50 learners in a year.  Linette: They could be more, because per week, it's crazy.  The last time I was in the ICU, I had three ECCCO students and three KRNA's (Kenya Registered Nurse Anesthetists) and one more intern and two or critical care nurses. That's ten learners.  And then if you're on the rotation, you have to teach the ICU curriculum for that week.  David: So, you're doing that teaching? Linette: Yes. Yes. I teach. Right now, I took a break because I've been so busy with my family, but I teach physiology in the school. David: Oh, for the nursing students?  Linette: For the clinical officers. Linette: I teach human physiology. David: Awesome. That is a lot. Linette: Yeah, it is. That's why I, like, put a pause on it, because I'm like, “Let me just have a baby first and then I can think about it.” David: Yeah, that's awesome. How old is your little one? Linette: He's turning one [year old] this week.  David: So, you're entering a new phase, you're starting to sleep. And you're also starting to, realize, every second there's more trouble. Linette: He can get into. Yes, I'm battling chronic fatigue. He's such a handful. He's all over the place. And then he just discovered how to walk. So now it's like, "get everything out of the way." And just when you think you got everything out of the way, he discovers another one. David: What would it take to build a proper ICU?   That will be a phase-three of the hospital master plan.  This year there will be a new oxygen and facilities plant that they're calling an Energy Center. That will go It will be just outside of Wairegi [the men's ward]. That's part one.  Part two is the new outpatient center.  And then part three will be where outpatient currently is. They want to build a huge building that will be maternity, internal medicine, ICU. I think it'll take that [building] to get to 30 or 40 beds. But I'm hopeful that we can figure out how to do something substantially more in the near term.  If we get equipment, it can roll where it needs to go.  Knocking out walls and things like that are permanent, but equipment can follow the need. If it needs to go to Centennial [ward], it can go to Centennial. If it needs to go wherever, it can go wherever. So, I hope I hope we can do a substantial expansion this year. Because it's important and it needs to happen for you guys to be able to do what you're good at. Linette: Yeah. And now we have a renal unit, so we have, super-sick patients who we used to refer because we didn't have a renal unit. Now that we have an actual dialysis center in our hospital, we get called more and more into the unit because they code on the dialysis bench and we have to go there and resuscitate.  That's an ICU patient.  They cannot be anything less.  If you resuscitate, and then you don't have a ventilator, you'll just be bagging and bagging and bagging and you're like, "okay, I'll be the vent for now." But then, "how long am I going to do this? Are we going to get an ambulance? Are we going to go to another hospital?"   Most of them don't have the money to go to a hospital with an ICU. Kijabe is so friendly, in terms of ICU cost, on your pockets. So, you tell them about any other hospital in the family is like, "no, we can't afford that happen." David: Do you have to save ventilators? You have that dialysis situation. Do you have to reserve ventilators for surgical patients? Like if somebody knows something bad just came in, they're going to surgery. Linette: All the time. Yes. Every night I'm on call, I'm like, "how many ventilators do we have?" And the ECCCO tells me we have three vents. And then they're like, “the surgery team called ICU and they said that they're taking in a complicated case, and they want us to save a vent." So, if I get any emergencies overnight and I had four vents and I'm saving that one for the surgical patient.  If I get any anything in casualty that needs an intubation, I can't accept. So, I have to refer. And that's terrible for those who come crashing because they crash, and our reflex is to intubate. We don't even think, we just intubate. And then suddenly somebody is bagging and we're like, "we don't have a vent."  Sometimes we end up having to give away the vent we have reserved for an emergency, and that causes a whole chain reaction of problems because now the surgeon is angry at you because they saved the vent for the patient, and they've already cut. And you're like, "let's pray to God that you come out of anesthesia." Yeah, it's just a jumble, it's just a mess on those bad nights. And then sometimes we have to quickly extubate someone who we didn't plan to extubate today. Maybe we plan to extubate them tomorrow, and we're like, “maybe tomorrow they'll be able to get off the vent,” and then we're like, "Okay, you need to breathe for yourself now because we're coming off now." But you see, that's a problem because you're extubating prematurely and you're like, “fingers crossed, legs crossed, please breathe.” And then they breathe, and you say, "Thank you!"  David: So how do you manage all this emotionally?  Linette: That is just it's painful. It is very painful. Sometimes there is moral injury that comes with denying the vent to some patients because you're like, “if I had intubated, I am not 100% sure that you wouldn't have made it.” I'm just basing this decision on your co-morbidities or your other diseases and the fact that you have significant disease.   There's this other [patient] with less significant disease and that you are likely to not make it. So that's a bit hard.  David: What do you do with that? Like, how do you how do you process this?  How do you not explode? Linette: Our culture in the ICU is when you have a really tough time, we debrief, we call the chaplain to come talk to us, or the palliative team. They're very good at counseling staff members about "What are you feeling about this? What are you feeling about having to extubate this one? What are you feeling about having to do this?" And everyone opens up their heart and says, "Well, I feel like crap, like this is terrible." And, well, I have a good husband at home and he's like a doctor now because I take all my stories to him. So, I just offload on him and he's a very good listener. So, I feel better because I have that at home.  I have good support at home.  David: I love that.  Linette: Yeah. It's a tough journey, but it's also fun because we see people and its life changing. It's the difference between life and death for someone. So, our extubation days are really good. Like, "Yes, you did it, we saved one! And then 10 million more to go!” Always celebrate the small wins. David: I love that. Awesome. Thank you so much, Linette Linette: Thank you for having me. David: Appreciate, you're amazing. Linette: Thanks.

He's here, he's there; Dr. Hillman brings drug safety everywhere! So given the rules and regulations he needs to follow, the title “vigilante” could be nothing but ironic.We chart David's progress through choosing pharmacology as a subject to study, and settling on pharmacovigilance as a career to pursue. Listen: The Bollywood beats come courtesy of Cambridge-based artist Anish Kumar whose music you can also find on Bandcamp: anishkumarmusic.bandcamp.com, YouTube, Instagram and Twitter.Watch:Subscribe to our YouTube channel now for all future recordings. Episode transcript[Background intro music playing is "Nazia" by Anish Kumar]Parmvir: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the 2Scientists podcast, where inspiring scientists share their work with you, wherever you like to listen. Today we come to you from a rather unique spot, rather than a cafe or bar we are camped out in Kensington Gardens in London, because it's a glorious day and our podcasting equipment allows us to do that. But enough about me and us, we are here today, of course I am your host Parmvir Bahia here and we're here with David Basanta, but we also have with us another David who is very special to me, he is an old friend of mine from my PhD program, and we shared much time and much swearing over experiments together at University college London. How are you David Hillman? David: I'm doing well. Thank you. It's, as you say, it's a, it's a lovely day and, it's nice to be back with old friends. Parmvir: Yes, yes. Of course everything rotates background to COVID and whereas we would normally see each other once a year. It's been three, four, possibly? David: Three, I think that's yeah.Parmvir: Miserable. David: Yeah. Sad times we shall have to make up for it. Parmvir: We will, we will. There's a bottle of Cava with our name on it. Once we've done with this. David: And onion rings. Parmvir: And onion rings. Yes. Fancy Marks and Spencer's one's though. So let's start at the beginning. I'm not talking about like, where were you born kind of thing. Although you can mention Kidderminster if you'd like. So as I understand it, we had a relatively similar track as undergraduates. So you did a bachelor's in pharmacology, correct? David: Yeah, that's right. Parmvir: So tell us why, why pharmacology? David: So this is gonna age me, age us.So I, for my A levels, so for my senior school exams, I, studied chemistry, biology, and maths, and I wanted to study something at university that combined chemistry and biology. And so this is the bit that will age us. So back in the day, if you remember, you would go to the, career advice department who were trying to help people to steer people towards what options they might want to pick at university.And they had this huge telephone directory effectively, which, mapped together people's different, combinations of A level courses and then gave you a list of options that you could, study at university. So I was sat in this little tiny room with this career advisor person, and they were basically running through this list of different courses.And when they came to pharmacology, they'd already mentioned pharmacy, which, you know, most people know what it is, but then they said pharmacology and I stopped them and said, well, what's, what's the difference? And they actually gave a pretty good summary. They said, it's more the biology of medicine. It's more the, the research and development of new medicines. They said it's potentially a controversial topic because it's the pharmaceutical industry is itself sometimes controversial and there's other aspects to the industry, which are, challenging sometimes. But yeah, that's how it started. So I picked a few different pharmacology courses, one of which was King's College London. I was always very practical, so I liked the idea of doing a year in industry at some point. So I chose a sandwich course like you and yeah, so that took me to KCL all that time ago. Parmvir: Mm. So I didn't realize how similar our tracks had been, because I also did biology, chemistry and maths, and I wanted to do something with the chemistry and the biology.And I got put in that direction by David: did you pick it out of the phone book as well? Parmvir: I did. What was it called? There was a name for it. David: It was pretty like a UCAS publication. Parmvir: Yes. It was just, it was enormous. David: Yeah. Parmvir: But yeah, in any case, I also, I did a sandwich year and I got to go and hang out in Germany for a year, which was fun.But yeah. So obviously after that you came to do a PhD at UCL where we were, well, I was a year ahead of you, I think. David: Yeah. You were. Parmvir: Why? Why did you do a PhD? David: So well for the reasons that I guess a lot of people do them, which is that I wasn't sure what to do next [both laugh] and a PhD seemed like a good way to string it out for another few years before I figured that out.But the reason I landed on UCL was that when I did go and do my year in industry, which like you was for a large pharma company, I worked in a lab looking at some non-clinical safety models. And we were using electrophysiology techniques at the time that was sharp electrode electrophysiology.Parmvir: You're gonna have to explain what electrophysiology means. David: Oh, don't make me do that. It's been 20 years [Parmvir laughs]. Oh, it's basically where you take either isolated cells or tissues and you put tiny, tiny electrodes into them and measure the changing currents across cell membranes. And as you put different drugs on, you can look at different effects of those drugs how they affect the electrical signals that you can measure.And really it's ions moving back and forward across membranes by little things called ion channels. So yeah, so I'd done sharp electrode electrophysiology there. I went back to university to finish my last year, and then the question came up about what to pick for a PhD. And I thought, well, although I hadn't enjoyed electrophysiology, it's something that I had started to, I guess, gain an interest in. Plus I had some skills that in that area. So, yeah, so I found a course, rather a PhD studentship at UCL, which seemed to fit the bill. It was looking at using a slightly different electrophysiology technique, so patch, clamping in a different area, but I thought it was something that I could use what I'd learnt in my year in industry Parmvir: I gave you some of these questions beforehand. David: Yes, because I'm incapable of spontaneous reaction to questions [Parmvir laughs]. Parmvir: Actually, I loved it so much that I have to read out your description of what your memory is like. David: I was quite proud of that. I coined that yesterday. I used to think of my memory as a lobster pot. Parmvir: All right. So you said I've just come up with a good analogy for my recall memory. It's like a reference library. You have to put in a request and then go away for a bit. When you come back, I'll have retrieved something from the vaults. Hopefully. David: Yeah, exactly. Parmvir: But aside from that I wanted to say this might be something of a loaded question, but what did you think of your PhD experience?David: You know, I really, I look back on those years with fond memory. Now it's partly because looking back, you edit out all of the stress and anxiety associated with doing a research project like that. I remember at the time when I first started UCL ran some induction courses where they pulled together PhD students and other postgraduate students from all sorts of backgrounds and John Foreman who you'll remember who was the Dean of students at the time, he gave a little introduction to UCL, but also gave some interesting advice let's say and pointers.And one of the things he pointed out in that session was the high degree of mental illness that is encountered by students in general taking these types of courses because they are stressful. And you often feel like you are kind of on your own. Driving your own research project forward. Sometimes through difficult times. So I do remember that in particular, but you know, what I remember mostly is just how impressed I was with all of the people that surrounded me because our department was not particularly flashy in its kind of presentation, but there were some seriously impressive people there.So I always like to think of our lab in the sense of, you know, it was run by effectively by Dennis and, and Guy when we got there. But before then it had been run by Don and before then it had been run by Bernard Katz who was a Nobel laureate. So it felt like we were the either grandchildren or great grandchildren of a Nobel Laureate and the whole department was a bit like that. It had a lot of very understated people who were world experts in their, in their field. And I always felt like the dumbest person in the department. But that didn't bother me too much because you know, being surrounded by all this greatness and even just, you know, the little glimpses of things you would see at the kind of coffee breaks and in the corridors, some of those memories still live with me, you know. Bearing in mind, this was back in what, between 2001 and 2005.So very, very early days of smartphones, things like trios and things like that, which seem antiquated now. But I remember coming across two old professors, so probably in their seventies or eighties comparing their smartphones and that like little microcosm, are the things that I loved about the department.Parmvir: Actually, I mean, I think you're, you're definitely selling yourself short. Like nobody would say that you weren't smart enough to be there. And I think one of the things that kind of ties into the, the mental health aspect is that we all felt that way. David: Yeah. Parmvir: Except we didn't express it to anyone else. It's, it's utterly ridiculous. How can we all be the least smart person in the room that's just not possible. David: Yeah. Parmvir: And after that, we all got our PhDs anyway, so, you know yeah. David: I certainly have no regrets about it. And I look back on those times with, with very fond memories, for sure. Parmvir: Yeah. Just talk briefly about what you did for your project and what the difficulties were.David: So the lab that I joined, so which, which you were a part of as well, their specialty was calcium activated potassium channels. And over time, the lab had looked at these ion channels in various different settings. The project that I was given was looking at these channels in vascular endothelial cells, which was a cell type that no one in the lab had ever studied before.Parmvir: Mm. David: So one of the biggest challenges that we were hit with straight away was that no one in the lab could really help that much with firsthand experience of how to obtain these cells, how to isolate them, how to culture them, how to grow them and really how to manage those cell types. So you might well remember that, the first, probably nine months of my PhD was just spent trying to culture these cells. Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: and it started with you know, available tissue from rats and other small mammals.But then eventually we were not having success with culturing cells from those models. So I switched onto pigs and, you know, I'd done a bit of reading that, you know, these vessels, because they were much larger the blood vessels, it was easier effectively to culture cells from, so I looked in the phone book and I found the address of an abattoir out in the middle of Essex.And there began my weekly trip for getting on for two and a half years to the deepest, darkest corners of Essex to go and retrieve pig, coronary artery cells once a week. Parmvir: Yeah. And essentially you suffered because these things were so flat. [David laughs] And when you're trying to, so you, for anyone who's listening, you have to picture trying to get a very, very fine tube onto something that is incredibly flat, and essentially you need this thing to form a vacuum seal and that just wasn't gonna happen. David: No, so, you know, vascular endothelial cells, they're the cells that line blood vessels, which is why they're, they're very flat. They're like tiles almost on the inside of veins and arteries.And you know, with other cells in the lab that were being looked at like the ones that you were looking at, like DRGs and like neurons and things like that, you know, you were basically putting the, the electrode down onto like a ball. Parmvir: Yeah. David: So the gap between the bottom of the dish and the top of the cell was who knows, 10, 20 microns, something like that. The cells that we were looking at, they flattened themselves out so much, they were about one micron, I think we estimated and therefore the tiniest vibration in the room would destroy the cell. And yeah, so the first stage was trying to culture, the damn things, and that was extremely challenging. It took a long time, but nine months of the way through managed it, and then began the whole pain of trying to get electrical recordings from them, which turned out to be as difficult. Parmvir: Yeah. So one of the things, I don't know if we ever talked about this, but what did you aspire to do after you'd done your PhD originally?Like, did you have any kind of idea? David: I mean, I think I was always headed into the pharmaceutical industry, which is where I landed up. In my undergrad degree in, I think my either first or second year, I did a very nice course, which was a kind of practical introduction to the pharmaceutical industry and from very top level, how drugs are developed and how pharma companies are organized internally and how the research progresses. And that, I'd always found that interesting. I mean, I find the entire pharmaceutical industry absolutely fascinating. And still do to this day. It's such an amazingly complex industry. And so, yeah, so I think I'd always been heading in that direction. Sure enough, the PhD certainly made me decide I was done with bench science [Parmvir laughs]. So, you know, by the time you've spent three plus years plodding along with these experiments that have a success rate of one in 50 sometimes. Parmvir: Yeah. David: You know, days and weeks without getting any data, and towards the end, still being in the lab at three o'clock in the morning, trying to get something to work and breaking more and more glassware as time goes on [Parmvir laughs]Yeah, I decided I was done with bench science, although I loved being in the labs, I loved playing in the labs. But I was never that into the kind of reading of the scientific papers and that sort of thing. Once it came down to maths and things like that, I wasn't so engaged. I needed to see practical things. Parmvir: Yeah. I feel like at some point we realized we were both some kind of engineer at heart rather than David: Yeah. Maybe Parmvir: scientist, David: maybe. Parmvir: It's more like, how does this work rather than trying to answer a bigger scientific question. David: Yeah. Parmvir: But obviously you were, you were a little bit scarred by your experience there, and you ended up going off in, I guess, a very different track from what the standard academic education leads you towards. So I think at this point this might be a good place to put your disclaimer in. David: Yes. So I work in the pharmaceutical industry and over time I've worked for, and with a variety of different companies.Any of the content that I describe today are my opinions and my opinions alone, and often they're really based off things which are in the public domain. In fact it's all based off things that were in the public domain and also some of the education that I've received, because actually, even after I finished my PhD, I then years later went on to study a, another academic course specifically in pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology.Parmvir: Oh, where did you do that? David: London school of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Parmvir: Oh. David: And it's interesting because it's a short course and I felt was a very valuable course. It's a course where regulatory authorities also send their people to learn too. Parmvir: So there's a lot of questions I can ask next.But one of the things that your job description throws up is this word "pharmacovigilance". What does that mean? David: Okay. So somewhere because I'm not gonna do it justice from memory, I'm going to read out the WHO definition of pharmacovigilance. It doesn't roll off the tongue, unfortunately, which is why it's never quite there in my head.So per the WHO: pharmacovigilance is the science and activities relating to the detection, assessment, understanding and prevention of adverse effects, or any other medicine, or vaccine-related problem. So essentially it is the process and the science relating to drug side effects. Now as you'll remember from pharmacology days, very early on, you're taught that all pharmacologically active substances, if it applies to the human body have side effects. The same side effects are not encountered by every person.And you know, some of the side effects might have obvious clinical manifestations. Some might not, you might get side effects, never know you've had them. And of course they vary massively in severity. So when you are looking at a medicine, particularly one that you're introducing to kind of general use in humans, you have a trade-off to make because you have an expected therapeutic benefit, but you also have to be mindful of potential side effects, particularly serious side effects and how much tolerance you have for those versus the good that the drug is supposed to do.And achieving that balance is one of the big challenges that's faced in drug development.Parmvir: So what you do really, it kind of comes at the end of the whole process of clinical trials and so on for given products, right? David: It actually starts right at the beginning of clinical development.So. Parmvir: Oh, hang on, I have to ask David's question: does that make you a Pharmacovigilante? David: [David and Parmvir laugh] I've often wondered the same thing myself. But yeah, so pharmacovigilance takes off really where toxicology leaves. So before you can put a drug into clinical development, by which I mean development in humans, drugs first have to go through preclinical development and that's where all the various toxicology studies are run.Parmvir: Can you quickly define toxicology for us? David: Sure. It is really focusing on the well, the potentially toxic side of medicines. So before you put a drug anywhere near a human, you want to be absolutely certain that it doesn't cause various catastrophic side effects in humans.So, for example, you need to be confident that it doesn't cause cancer. You need to be confident that it's not gonna cause a heart attack immediately, or cause a stroke immediately or things like that. So as per regulations in pretty much every country in the world, before you put a drug anywhere near a human in a clinical trial, it has to go through a standard set of tests.And there's various ways to achieve that. You know, sometimes those are tests using computer simulated models. Sometimes they are using individual cells or cultured cells or tissues. And sometimes as is well known in the industry they're using animal models and these are legally required tests.So every drug that goes through the process has to go through these. So that's done before it gets to clinical development. And then you start with phase one clinical trials which are studies on, usually on healthy volunteers and they're very small trials. They involve perhaps a few tens of patients. And the only purpose of those trials is to look at the safety and tolerability of the drug. So this is the first time you're putting the drug into humans. There is a bit of an exception to that. So although these are usually conducted on healthy volunteers, for some drugs, including, for example oncology drugs. Those drugs are usually along the more kind of toxic end of agents, so it's not ethical to put those into healthy volunteers. So sometimes those studies are conducted in a patient population. So once a drug moves into human studies into phase one, from that point, really for the rest of the lifetime of that drug as a human medicine pharmacovigilance is involved. So all the way through the phase one, two and three studies and then once the drug goes onto the market, pharmacovigilance continues.So the companies or the pharmaceutical or biotech companies that are developing these assets have a legal requirement to collect and analyze this data on an ongoing basis pretty much forever. Until that drug is eventually, perhaps if it's lucky enough to get to the market, until it's withdrawn from the market, perhaps many decades later.Parmvir: Very good. And I think that there are probably some very topical things that have come up recently as a result of COVID 19, which is important to consider when we're talking about these things, in that we are not just relying on these clinical trials that have gone out to ensure that these things are safe, but once they're out there that you have to continue to get feedback from people who are taking these to ensure that they continue to be safe in the long term, right?David: That's true. So, you know, ordinarily in clinical development, once you get through phase 1, 2, 3, and if you are lucky enough to have a drug, which is sufficiently efficacious, tolerable to go to market, then yes, you know, the drug's released to market and you continue to monitor for this stuff.Vaccines are in a particularly special category because they are drugs that are given to healthy people. Mm yes. And so therefore the benefit risk balance is more complicated in some ways, because , you know, it's, it's hard to consider the benefit to the individual of taking a product when they don't yet have that disease.So now there are other drugs that are in a similar category, other drugs that are given to healthy people. This is where I can ask you some questions. So what, what do you think those other drugs include? Parmvir: Oh, goodness. Um, I'm trying to think off the top of my head, what they might be. David: Yeah. It's very unfair. Parmvir: All I can think of at the moment are the other vaccines. David: Okay. So, Parmvir: but there are lots of prophylactic things. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of anything David: Contraceptives. Parmvir: The obvious prophylactic. Yes. David: Drugs used for travel. So things like anti-malaria tablets. Parmvir: Oh yeah. David: Drugs used for things like smoking cessation Parmvir: mm-hmmDavid: stuff like that.So again, these are all drugs that are generally given to healthy people. So, you know, and this is where benefit risk balance comes into sharp focus, because if you have a drug that has been developed to treat a very hard to treat cancer, let's say, then when you consider benefit risk balance you know, if these patients are effectively going to die without a treatment, and this is the only treatment available, you might be able to accept that a drug has a one in a hundred chance of causing a fatal stroke. Particularly if that drug is given in hospital and these things can be, can be managed. If however, you are developing a cough medicine, then your tolerance for any type of dangerous side effects is basically zero, and of course, many drugs elsewhere on that scale. So yeah, benefit risk balance is a key part of what has to be looked at during drug development. And yeah, as we say, vaccines are particularly challenging. Often these days when a new drug is developed the clinical development and the studies don't stop necessarily when the drug is released for marketing. So, often as a condition of the marketing authorizations that are granted for these drugs, there have to be continuing studies to look at safety. These are called post-authorization safety studies. And so there's ongoing collection of data in a rigorous way to keep monitoring for various things. Either new things that we didn't know about the drug before, because of course when you're in clinical development, your number of patients is normally quite small Parmvir: mm-hmm David: so you're less likely to spot very rare side effects. You wouldn't usually detect a one in 50,000 probability side effect in a clinical trial cohort. Parmvir: Yeah. David: But sometimes these post authorization safety studies allow you to pick up more of that and enable you to characterize some of the side effects that you do know about more in detail.Parmvir: Yeah. So David B here asks essentially how long do these things go on after the drug's been on the market? For example, is there still pharmacovigilance for aspirin? David: Yes. Every single drug that has a marketing authorization out there it is the law in pretty much every country in the world that all safety data that becomes available to the marketing authorization holders, that's the company that owns the rights to the drug and effectively sells the drug, they're required by law to collect process, analyze and report this data. Now as drugs age, the natural reporting rate for some of these drugs drops so the probability of a physician or a pharmacist or a nurse, or even a patient reporting a side effect probably drops over time because theses are not new medicines anymore, but even so, any data that is collected has to go through that process, which is the pharmacovigilance that we were referring to earlier. In addition to that, all companies with marketing authorizations have to look at scientific and medical literature. It all has to be reviewed, so in European requirements, including the UK on a weekly basis, companies have to trawl some of the big literature databases, such as PubMed and M base, they have to trawl that information for any articles on their drugs. And any indication of side effects or other similar challenges. Parmvir: So how is this information collected and processed? Cause you've said obviously doctors, nurses, patients, they will all report certain things. Mm-hmm how do you kind of get them to a central place and cataloged and how do you decide what are actual side effects versus David: So if we think about the front end of the process, most pharma companies out there will have medical information help lines. So these are help lines that are set out there so that healthcare professionals. So that's the physicians, the, the pharmacists, the nurses and others but also consumers can contact the company for more information about the medicine and also potentially report adverse events, side effects. In parallel to that the same thing's going on with the regulators. So in the UK, for example, we have the yellow card scheme, which these days is a web portal system where anyone can go in and report side effects of medicines they're taking. In the us, you have the MedWatch scheme, which is very similar. Most companies around the world have similar things. Plus you've also got ongoing clinical trials, clinical studies, so data is coming in that way too. We've got data coming in from literature that I've mentioned. The regulators, when they receive stuff directly, they often pass that information over to the pharma company.So essentially all this information is coming towards the pharma company. It all gets directed to a pharmacovigilance department. And then we go through the process of processing that data. And so that data comes in from everywhere around the world where the drug is available for patients to take both in clinical trials and on the market.So the process basically consists of firstly translating the data, if it needs to be translated that gets captured into a safety database and there are various commercial safe databases out there. This is where companies collate all the information received on their drugs. And it goes through a process whereby data is kind of standardized it's put into standard terminology in a way that is compatible with the regulatory requirements. A narrative is constructed. So we write a story of what's happened to the patient from beginning to end. We look at various things like if the information is available to us, you know, what other medications were the patients taking? What's their medical history? What was the sequence of events? So what was the time to onset if possible, if we have that information between the patient taking the drug and them reporting the side effect, what the clinical course of the side effect was, so did the patient recover? Was any adjustment made to the the, the dosing or any treatments given? And so all that gets written up, we then decide what other information do we need to know?And then there's a feedback loop to go and ask the reporter if they'll provide additional information. Usually we ask for more information on more serious adverse events. We don't wanna overburden the reporters. Now reporters in clinical trials, so physicians involved in those, they're legally obliged to help with that process. Spontaneous reporters that we refer to, which is just where any healthcare professional or consumer contacts, the company, that's a voluntary reporting system, so we can ask them for additional information, they don't have to provide it, but we have to ask the questions anyway. So the information gets pulled together. It then goes, usually goes through a medical review, so we have kind of scientists pulling the data together. And then we have physicians reviewing the case, making sure it makes medical sense. And then depending on the seriousness of the case and other attributes, that case might have to be reported out to regulators worldwide.And a lot of the reports which are serious, have to be reported out within 15 days of what we call day zero, which is the first day anyone in the company became aware of the report. Parmvir: Mm-hmm. David: But to give you an idea, the large pharma companies are dealing with potentially tens of thousands of reports a week that are coming in on all of their products. So these are vast systems that are set up and they have to be set up to be able to meet all of the regulatory requirements in terms of timelines, for reporting. So the data's coming in, the expedited reports are going out in the format that the regulators require. We also have to pull together what we call aggregate reports. So these aggregated analyses of data over time for newer drugs, for example, those are submitted in Europe every six months. And then over time as the drug gets older, the gap between reports gets longer. And then also we're doing something, what we call signal section, which is where we are analyzing the data. And we're looking for trends in the data. Where we think we've got patterns we're starting to then look into researching those patterns a little bit more, you know, if we start to see, for example that I don't know that we are getting what appears to be a disproportionate number of nose bleeds, let's say, in a patient cohort, we would, you know, do background research on, well, you know, is there a plausible biological mechanism that we know about through the development of the drug? Was there stuff seen in the animal studies or even the human studies that might indicate that there's a, there's a root cause here.We'll look into confounding effects. Are all these patients on other drugs, which actually are likely causing that? And yeah, so kind of an appraisal is done: what's going on? Is it likely to be caused by something else? And if not, you know, we, keep on looking and those conversations then have to be shared with the regulatory authorities.And over time, what you'll see is the labeling of the product, the professional labeling which in Europe, including the UK, is the SMPC, the summary of product characteristics, which is a bit like the instruction manual for the product, which is available to healthcare professionals and the simplified version of that PIL those little leaflets you find inside of packs, those eventually get revised on an ongoing basis to accommodate the new knowledge that we are gaining on the side effect profile of the drug. So this is an ongoing process and it happens throughout the entire lifetime of the, of the drug. Parmvir: But yeah, so here's a subject that no one's talked about for a little while. COVID 19 David: mm-hmm Parmvir: [laughs] Obviously I know there's probably a collective groan from people listening right now, but it seems like a relevant subject, given the conversations around safety that people are having with regard to the vaccine. So do you know if there's been like a major uptick in these reports by individuals, of side effects from the vaccines, or do you take account of the fact that so many billions of people essentially at this point have received at least one shot of the vaccine versus how many reports you get coming in?David: Yeah. So this is one of the big challenges, and one of the things I should have said about drugs like vaccines is because they're given to such vast numbers of people, it becomes a particular challenge to differentiate between things which are being caused potentially by the vaccine and other things, which unfortunately are just bad luck of being a human being.And by that, I mean, so years ago when I was doing one of the academic courses we were being taught about the vast amounts of research that had to be done in terms of epidemiology before the HPV vaccines were released. So these vaccines were being released for use in teenage girls, and at the time it was felt that there was perhaps an insufficient understanding of the general health of that population, including things like what is the probability of a freak occurrence that a teenage girl is going to have a stroke or something like that? Things which we think of as of course, they're exceptionally rare, but they do happen.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: and I'm talking about in untreated populations. Parmvir: Yep. David: But of course, you know, some of these patients are also on birth control and things like that, that also have other risk factors associated with them so my understanding is before the HPV vaccines were released, a huge amount of epidemiology research was done so that when the new vaccines were released, we knew that we would expect, and I'm just gonna make up a number here that, you know, one in 500,000 teenage girls would have, I don't know, some kind of fatal event which would just naturally occur, you know, even without them having the vaccine. And so that's similar for other vaccine rollouts as well. There has to be a good understanding of the background events of other things that, people will have happen to them, which have nothing to do with the medicine that you are giving.So, you know, that data is kept available and kept an eye on by the regulatory authorities and also the pharma companies. We don't have background rates for everything, so being prepared for what might come and then, you know, there perhaps isn't so much panic when the first case comes in of a patient that has one of these catastrophic events but if you start to see more than that, that's when you start to perhaps get more interested in: is this really being caused by the vaccine or the drug of interest. So, yeah, a lot of upfront work has to be done before you even put the drug out there. I mean, in terms of the COVID vaccines and the treatments, because of the high degree of public interest and scrutiny a lot of these drugs when they were first given and the vaccines were first given, so adverse events, side effects were tracked through post-authorization safety studies. So actually a lot of people, when they got their first doses, consented to have maybe a follow up call from an investigator who would ask them about various side effects that happened. So in addition to all of the natural spontaneous reporting that was coming in, there were very large cohorts of past study data coming in which is a robust way to look at these things. I know as well, there were legitimate questions about, you know, the COVID vaccines in particular were produced fairly quickly compared to the usual 10 to 15 years in development of, of a product. But you know, there are various reasons for this. So vaccines are perhaps one of the medicines where it's more possible to template out the product and therefore switch out components. But they still have a product which is similar to other products that have previously been used. But also, the COVID era in terms of vaccine development and treatment development was, in my opinion at least a completely unique event in terms of drug development so far. If you think of drug development as a kind of universe, or I'm gonna use some wonky analogies here, but let's say as galaxies, which have solar systems within them that have planets within them.So if you think of the galaxy of drug development you have all of these different stakeholders involved. You have the pharmaceutical companies and biotech companies and the service companies that support them, that's one area. You have the regulatory authorities but you have many other stakeholders.You have patients, of course they're the most important. For chronic diseases you might have patient advocacy groups. But also, you know, you guys are part of this universe as well, because you are the ones doing basic research, which is the foundation on which all, you know, all of this is, is ultimately built. So you have universities and other research organizations. You have the funding bodies that sit behind those that decide where the research money goes. And then out the other end of the process you have ethics committees that are involved in approving clinical trials. You have payers. So these are the organizations that ultimately pay for medicinal products in the UK, for example, that's the NHS. Parmvir: Yep. David: In the US, that would be insurance companies. Parmvir: Yeah. David: You have many other stakeholders. So you have obviously healthcare professionals at the end of the day, new drugs have to be woven into the fabric of medicine. And so you have to bring HCPs along with you. There are the learning bodies as well in relation to HCPs, the kind of professional bodies.So that's really at a kind of galaxy level, these are all the different solar systems. And then within them, if you look at the pharmaceutical biotechnology and service provider solar system, within those you have an incredibly complicated set of different skills departments, functions, you have the functions that are doing discovery.So these are the early days of, development where, you know, biologists and chemists are working out, you know, what are the new therapeutic targets we can look at? Then you have the clinical development division. You have the patent divisions, you have the regulatory affairs functions. You have the pharmacovigilance functions. You have the medical affairs functions, you have the medical information functions [Parmvir cackles]. There are, and I'm going to miss out many, many. You have the, the bio stats folks, you have the medical writers. And then of course you have the manufacturing, which is in itself a completely different, you know, specialized world.So yeah, you're dealing with a very complicated process with lots of things which are interlinked. But for me, if you think of all these things, like if you use layout or different compass, let's say, and I'm talking about the compass you use to check direction, not the ones you used to draw circles [Parmvir laughs] and if you scatter them all out they'll all be pointing at different directions. You know, all of these different entities have their own priorities. Because of course the industry as a whole is developing many different medicinal products for different reasons. I think when COVID came along, it was like drawing a magnet across the top of all those compasses and it got all the needles to point in the same direction.So you had governments who had a clear incentive to try and support the development of treatments. So you had governments putting up money, which was perhaps slightly unusual. They were putting money into basic research, such as the type of stuff that you guys do. They were putting money into diagnostics, which are critical for things like COVID.They were putting money into the development of vaccines and into treatments. And then of course, you know, you have the pharma companies where there was a scramble to try and develop something, to help humanity in its hour of need. You had the regulators with a lot of focus on them you know, and everyone watching their, every move and trying to ensure that you know, as many processes that often might take months, or perhaps even years were made as efficient as possible.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: And it was a unique point in time because everyone was lined up with the same objective. So it meant, for example, that, you know, parts of the industry, which are normally a nine to five job, became a 24/7 job. Parmvir: Yeah. David: For a short period of time.And there was a huge amount of collaboration, which happened between the different stakeholder groups, you know regulatory authorities offered perhaps free scientific advice to companies that were developing this stuff. They met very regularly with companies that were in development. They gave a lot of advice as to what their expectations were when the data was received by them. They shortened some administrative pathways let's say which usually take a lot of time. They prioritized resource. So there's resource specifically waiting for this data to come in. And so, yeah, a lot of normal processes were adapted so that things could be done as efficiently as possible.And the outcome was that, you know, these drugs went through the entire process in a much more efficient way than would usually be encountered. I think another thing as well is with things like vaccines, the side effects that we anticipate to see, including the rare unusual ones ordinarily these manifest within, you know, days or weeks.It's not something that usually we anticipate things to occur years later. So there was that aspect too, but yeah, it was a, it was a unique time. Parmvir: Yeah. And actually this is a good throwback to Dr. Carina Rodriguez's podcast because she ran one of the clinical trials for the vaccine in children at USF where I work.David: Oh, fascinating. Parmvir: Yeah, so she talked about some of the things that you mentioned as well. David: I should say I was not involved sadly in any of the COVID vaccine development, but you know, it was fascinating to watch and actually to see my profession become a talking point in the news every day. Parmvir: Yes. David: It was very interesting to see all of this play out.Parmvir: Yeah. So actually, that's probably a good point to pause and ask you, what do you actually do? David: Okay. So [everyone laughs]. So as I've kind of indicated the process of pulling in adverse event data of coding it, which is the term we use for tidying up all of the data, putting it into a safety database, writing those narratives, getting the medical review, getting the important cases out the other end to the regulators, writing the reports, doing the signal section.These are very complicated processes and every company will develop them slightly differently. You know, small biotech companies, they might only have one product. It might only be approved in one or two countries. A top five pharma company will have hundreds of products authorized in many countries around the world. But all of these processes are put together in compliance with extremely strict regulations. Regulations that as I said exist in almost every country in the world and actually the regulations kind of cross over in the sense of, if you have a product that's authorized for marketing in the UK and the US, for example you know, the UK requires you to collect all the data and analyze it as does the US.They also require you to collect the data from each other's territories so companies are in the middle of the very complicated regulatory framework, which is a little bit different in each country, but fortunately is harmonized through some international bodies and international terminology. But building pharmacovigilance systems is complicated and it has to be done right. Firstly, for the obvious reason that we want to protect patients it's in no one's interest that that that patients are not protected. But also, you know, the penalties for not complying with these complex regulatory requirements are severe. And so my job really, as a, let's say senior leader within a pharmacovigilance department is to make sure that we build the right structures.And for these companies that we that we keep an eye out on all the areas, which are potential challenges and that companies are being compliant with the legislation to which we're all held. And so, so yeah, so building pharmacovigilance systems, I think is the simplest way I can describe it.Parmvir: It sounds pretty heavy and pretty complicated. David: Yeah. I mean, if you look at the larger pharma companies, if you add up all of the resource that they put into pharmacovigilance that they're legally required to put into pharmacovigilance, to service the needs of their products. A lot of things are outsourced these days, if you the count everything that comes from the outsourcing organizations as well, the big pharma companies have thousands of people like me involved in the processing and analysis of this data. So it is a big area, and that is all we do. You know, we are not involved in any other aspect of the drug. Not involved in the sales and marketing, for example, with the product, that's almost the complete opposite side of the company to us, all we do is you know, work in this very professionalized, very standardized discipline, which is pharmacovigilance. Parmvir: So David has a couple of questions. So first one should be relatively quick, which is that, is there a regulatory authority that is the gold standard? David: [David laughs] This is a very politically sensitive one.There are certainly some regulatory authorities who, particularly in some of the larger markets who are let's say more prominent. So examples would be the US FDA, the food and drug administration that is the drug regulatory authority for the United States. In the UK, we also have an extremely prominent regulator, the MHRA they're one of the oldest regulators, I believe in the world. So that's the UK medicines and healthcare products, regulatory agency. But you know, every country has its own regulator and whilst there are some who put themselves out there, perhaps as world leading regulators, there are just as many others that are doing the same important job for their countries. The European Union and European Economic Area has a slightly more complicated system because they have a coordinating regulatory authority, which is the European Medicines agency, the EMA, who many of you all have heard about in news reports, particularly during the COVID situation. But at a national level, you also have all of the national regulators who are working in tandem with the EMA. Parmvir: Okay. So this sounds quite different from, obviously it's very different from what you were doing during your PhD. David: Yes. Parmvir: He also wants to know, how did your PhD work, prepare you to do what you do now. David: If I could sum it up in one phrase, and this is a phrase which is overused, but I think in this case, it is really true: problem solving.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: because it's interesting, you mentioned earlier that you and I we're almost engineers. Well, I went from becoming a physical engineer, at least in a lab environment to a process engineer. And, you know, I always used to think very naively when I was doing the basic research with you, I used to think, look, we are solving problems that no one knows the answer to. This must be the hardest job in the world. [Parmvir laughs] We're not solving manmade problems. Manmade problems must be so easy to solve. But no manmade problems [Parmvir laughs] are also particularly challenging. And when I say manmade problems, you know, I'm not talking about problems that someone is deliberately created, it's just, you know, logistical challenges, and just the challenges caused by working in, you know, different regulatory envionments with different sets of requirements and how to build processes that meet all of the requirements at the same time. And react to events, of course, because it might well be that you've had a product that has been ticking along nicely for a long time. And then suddenly there is a safety concern with the product. And if that safety concern is in the public domain, you will be deluged with reports in relation to that product called stimulated reporting. And you know, of course sometimes companies will be subject to class action lawsuits particularly in the US. So they might also receive large volumes of reports all in one go. All of those reports have to meet the same legal timelines, but now suddenly you've got 10,000 reports landed on your desk. Each one takes four hours to process and they're all due to the regulators in 15 days. So yeah, it is challenging working in a hyper regulated environment. Parmvir: Essentially these are problems that come about because we are humans. David: Exactly. Yeah. Parmvir: And we have to somehow live together. David: Yeah. Parmvir: So I had a couple of questions from my little sister and these might not be directly related to your work, but they are related to the fact that you work within an environment that involves clinical trials and patients and so on.And so Sukhy wants to know are side effects from drugs, usually the same for healthy people versus patients. David: This is a great question and cause me a little bit of head scratching. I think, I mean, the answer is it depends, I think by and large. Yes. But there will be some exceptions and those exceptions include things like some of the oncology treatments, because obviously there is an interaction often between the drug and the tumor, for example, so in a healthy person you can't emulate that because there is no tumor. So an example would be a phenomenon called tumorlysis syndrome which can only occur when there's a tumor to react to the particular drug. But by and large, yes, we extrapolate safety data from healthy individuals initially, which is why the earlier phases of studies are done often in healthy volunteers with some exceptions. But yeah. Then when we move on to phase two and then phase three, phase two and three are conducted in patients that have the indication of interest, I have the disease that we're trying to treat.Parmvir: So another question she had: how do you know people who are not healthy will be able to tolerate the drugs given that initially that they're tested on healthy people?David: So the first thing I would say is I'm not an expert in the design of clinical trials, but as I said, as you go through phase one which are the trials that are normally on healthy patients, you actually start out with a tiny, tiny dose. So you have an idea of dosing from your animal studies, but the data isn't always transferrable. But you take the maximum tolerable dose in animals, including in the most sensitive animals. And you then cut that by huge factor by perhaps 500 fold. Parmvir: Right. David: So you start out with a tiny amount and then you escalate up the doses to see how the patients are tolerating the drug, not the patients subject, I should say. So these are healthy volunteers usually. Parmvir: Yep. David: So that's phase one, but yeah, then of course, when you go into phase two, you're dealing with a different patient population. I don't know exactly how that's always done, but of course, you know, trials are put together by experts in the field. And they involve, you clinicians whose expertise is this particular area of medicine.Parmvir: Yeah. David: And of course it's not just the physicians at the pharmaceutical company and the biopharma company and the scientists, I should say as well. Also, this stuff is going to regulatory authorities, it's going to ethics committees, all of whom will have their own areas of expertise. So, you know, protocols are designed around the patient and to ensure the patients are not put at unnecessary risk.Parmvir: Ah, sometimes David sends me one of those questions that really makes me giggle. And this is if regulations are so important and onerous, how do I start my own biotech in the garage? David: [David laughs] Well, it's interesting, you know, companies don't necessarily have to be that big themselves to get started, but what they will need is a lot of help.Parmvir: Yeah. David: So what you'll see these days is you know, new biotechs starting up. But they rely very heavily on outsourcing. So they will partner with service providers with contract research organizations, with contract manufacturing organizations, all sorts of other parties that have the expertise that perhaps they aren't able to pull together themselves.But yeah, there are some companies out there, particularly smaller companies in earlier development that are, you know, pretty small might have 20 people in the company. Parmvir: Yeah. David: But they will need to rely on the help of many others, because going back to the kind of universe description that I gave, you know, there are so many specialized areas that you need to have covered in order to pull together everything you need, both to run a clinical trial. and also to submit a marketing authorization application. And then also keep your product compliant with all of the legal requirements that are out there.Parmvir: It's a lot.David: It is a lot, and you know this is why drug development is so costly because it needs a truly vast number of specialists involved. And, you know, quite a lot of physicians as well. And also, you know, most drugs that enter drug development don't make it all the way through the other end, so the end costs of medicinal products also have to cover the cost of the drugs that didn't make it.And plus companies only have a certain period of exclusivity before their drug becomes generic, i.e., other companies can start making it. Parmvir: So this is purely from a personal perspective, from your point of view: what do you think about the fact that obviously you have these companies who have put so much money developing these things, which were designed to treat a global pandemic. And yet we found that for example, like entire continents, like Africa still don't have a lot of people vaccinated against COVID 19, and those companies will refuse to open up the patents to allow them to be able to get people to stay healthy. David: Yeah, it's an area that really I'm not really sufficiently qualified to talk on. And I'm not just saying that, you know, through not wanting to put my foot in my mouth, but particularly with some of the vaccine technologies that were used, they were not simple medicines to manufacture. So not simple to manufacture, not simple to store, not simple to distribute. And sometimes I guess, it is perhaps a legitimate concern of a company that if other companies start making their same drug to a lower quality, that can have ramifications elsewhere. Now I'm not saying that that was the reason behind some of what you mentioned. Now there was a vaccine that was developed the UK vaccine which was specifically developed from the outset to be made available in developing world countries, let's say, and specifically to be made available at cost. And even the way that product was designed, it can be manufactured and stored at fridge temperature Parmvir: mm-hmm, which is a big deal. David: Exactly. It is a big deal, you know, those are all very important components to consider. A vaccine that could be used in those environments. But even, I remember because I vacuumed up all of the documentaries I think on television, Netflix, everywhere else about all of the challenges that were being faced. And, you know, there were even things that you just wouldn't think about, which was, you know, because the mRNA vaccines had to be stored at -80 [degrees Celsius], there wasn't enough minus 80 freezers in the developed countries, let alone figuring out how to develop and ship these to other countries with different climatic conditions.And so you even had the manufacturers of that type of equipment, having to up their game and suddenly churn out much more equipment than they previously had. So, yeah, there's no simple answer. I mean, historically there've been other challenges in the past with other types of drugs, such as the HIV medications. In the end access to those drugs was resolved through very careful dialogue between companies, regulators others. Access issues, I believe to those drugs, and again, this is just basically what I see on documentaries and other things; where are access problems these days, they're not in relation to the drug supply chain they're in relation to other things like people not wanting to come forward and receive treatment because of the stigma associated with things like that.Parmvir: So in short, do you enjoy your work? David: I do. I mean, I can honestly say that in my work every day is different. I'm very privileged in my job to support a number of different companies that are developing different products with a very wide variety of indications. And also, you know, just when you think you've seen it all worked with a wide variety of medicinal products, suddenly something completely new will come along. For example, we are now on the precipice of many commercial gene therapies coming out. Parmvir: Ooh. David: And you know, those products have some different considerations. Perhaps some of these interventions are irreversible Parmvir: mm-hmm.David: So, you know, what happens if patients do start developing something rare and unexpected. You have patients surviving a lot longer than was originally envisaged so, you know, are there other things which come about you know, as a result of the underlying disease that just no one had ever seen before. And yeah, many other types of technologies and the regulations are always having to evolve to take into account of these new therapies and the challenges associated with them.Parmvir: Well, it sounds like you will continue to live in interesting times. David: Yeah. I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon . Parmvir: Well, thank you so much for your time today, David. That was fantastic. And yeah, as I say, we kind of thought of you as soon as we started thinking about the safety surrounding things like COVID vaccines and knew that was your jam.So yes, we very much appreciate your time today. David: Okay. Thank you very much. [musical interlude]David: So I mentioned earlier that at an early point in my PhD, I switched to studying vascular endothelial cells that were harvested from pigs. So essentially these were pigs that were being slaughtered for the meat industry. And so I had to look through a phone book and identify an abattoir that I could go to and get the tissue that I needed to do my experiments so obviously this all had to start somewhere. So I put in a call to an abattoir in deepest, darkest Essex. And I gingerly made my way on the train to this place, which of course was in the middle of rural nowhere. And unfortunately the first day that I picked to go, it was snowing. Now we don't get vast amounts of snow in Southern England, but this was a decent sprinkling of snow. So I arrived in this quiet rural destination and I walked across various fields. I think I'd perhaps just got GPS on my phone, but it was very early days. And I was lost in fields of white in no time at all. So I ended up putting in a call to, the guys, to, come and pick me up, which they very kindly did. So then, you know, at that time I really didn't know what a coronary artery looked like so what I decided to do for that first trip was I just collected the fresh hearts that they were able to bring out the processing facility. So these were kind of warm pig hearts, freshly harvested from animals. I think I had three hearts or something like that. And so I had a large polystyrene box with me with some ice in it. And I think they were kind enough to give me the ice, as I put these hearts inside bags and put them in the box and then started making my way back to London. And of course, you know, this being a cold day, the heating was on, on the train, and so as I was sat on the train, in fact, I think it was when I got onto the tube, I suddenly became horrified that my polystyrene box was starting to leak water. And of course I knew, but no one else knew on the tube that within that water were bags, perhaps not secured, very tightly containing hearts and containing probably a fair amount of blood.And I suddenly started sweating that this puddle that was starting to pull around my polystyrene box on the floor of the tube would suddenly start to go pink and then red. And then before I knew it, I would be in serious trouble. So it was just one of those situations where the tube journey seemed to get longer and longer, and I was sweating more and more and then it got to the point where I felt that I couldn't wait any longer, so I kind of dashed outta the tube at the next station went up what was perhaps one of the longest escalators on the underground and managed to just get out the other side before I caused perhaps a fake terrorist incident or something like that. I was trying to think about how I would explain that I'd got three hearts in my polystyrene box and a set of scalpels bearing in mind that pig's hearts are very similar size to human hearts as well. So, yes, I managed just about to get to the lab. I clearly looked quite distressed, I suppose when I got back to the lab. So I started telling this story to my PhD supervisor, Dennis, and uh a retired professor that had come into the department, Don. And before too long, the two of them were crying with laughter at my story.So, um, so yeah, so that was my very first trip and yes, never, never forgotten.[musical outro]David: Our lab, when we first joined, it was quite old and a bit dog eared. And there was one particular chair in the office, which was, I mean, it was like a typical office swivel chair, but it had definitely seen better days and it was extremely uncomfortable. And when we had lab meetings, no one wanted to sit on this chair. And so Parmvir and I nicknamed it, Beelzebub's stool.

Ole Miss head coach Lane Kiffin deflected when asked Saturday about his potential candidacy at Auburn.His radio silence has only continued a few days later.To be fair, with school out and Thanksgiving week upon them, Kiffin has adjusted the Rebels' practice schedule, and his weekly press conference on Monday was pushed to 4 p.m.But that hasn't slowed speculation, including from The Athletic's Bruce Feldman, who most recently put Kiffin's chances of leaving Ole Miss for Auburn at 75 percent.Ben Garrett and David Johnson have to disagree in the latest edition of Franchise Player, a site-crossover podcast of the Ole Miss Spirit/On3 and Inside the Rebels/247. Plus, they've got an early look at the Egg Bowl, which is set for Thanksgiving night at 6 p.m. CT on ESPN.Here's a brief exchange from the nearly 40-minute conversation.Ben: What's your confidence level now with Lane Kiffin: One being he stays (and) 10 being he leaves?David: I'm actually down now to about a five and a half.Ben: Still coin-flip territory for both of us, and that sounds like a cop-out, but that's genuinely how I feel.David: It's a coin toss.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Thinking back fondly on the time Dick Cheney shot a guy ... David: Online journalism leveled the media playing field ... Is Russiagate an example of Democratic demagoguery? ... Mickey's little-known past as a squire to DC's elite ... The rewards of outrageousness ... What does it take to get drummed out of public life in 2022? ... David: It's sad that so many Americans accept Trump's prolific lying ... Does backlash against perceived media bias explain Trump's support? ... The undiminished shock value of January 6 ... Is there any Democratic alternative to Biden and Harris in 2024? ...

Thinking back fondly on the time Dick Cheney shot a guy ... David: Online journalism leveled the media playing field ... Is Russiagate an example of Democratic demagoguery? ... Mickey's little-known past as a squire to DC's elite ... The rewards of outrageousness ... What does it take to get drummed out of public life in 2022? ... David: It's sad that so many Americans accept Trump's prolific lying ... Does backlash against perceived media bias explain Trump's support? ... The undiminished shock value of January 6 ... Is there any Democratic alternative to Biden and Harris in 2024? ...

It's been 6 months since our new host David Banmiller joined the Interchange. In that time he has journeyed through the world of solar storage, EV policy in the US and UK, carbon capture, and hydrogen. The podcast has explored the power of community solar, geothermal energy technology and sustainable rocket fuel.We've been joined by CEOs from Alight, Quaise Energy, Ecosene and more and David has spoken with some of the leading innovators in every field of renewable energy, and dived deep into emerging tech that could solve some of the biggest problems facing the energy transition.For this special episode - we look back at some of the highlights of the past 6 months, featuring clips from Alight, the Coalition for Community Solar Access, WattTime, UC Davis, Quaise Energy and Ecosene. A message from David: It's been a journey on the Interchange: Recharged so far. I've learned more in the last 6 months than I ever hoped to as the host of the show, and it's taken me to some really interesting places. Solar Power Purchase Agreements in Norway, geothermal energy at MIT, sustainable rocket fuel in the UK, and other emerging technologies from all over the world. I can't wait for the next 6 months, and beyond, so thanks for joining me so far, and I look forward to taking you on the next step of the journey with me. We'll be back in 2 weeks and taking a look at the financing of the energy transition, with Matthew Nordan, Partner at Azolla Ventures. The podcast is also going to be heading off to the Solar and Storage Energy Summit from June 6-9, where I'll be broadcasting live from the 3 days of solar and storage talk with some of the biggest names in the industry. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.