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The follow-up mistake that costs sales (and kills communication) is a lack of sequencing. If I’ve got a sequence in place that says, all right, when I get a lead from a networking function, I’m going to initially, either same day or next morning, send out this email message, which essentially says, “it was great meeting you at the networking function. Nice having a chance to talk.” Then, you include something in that email to elicit a response. Some will initiate a dialogue, some of them won’t. So from that point, if you don’t hear back, you could have another one that goes out a couple of days later saying, “Hey, never heard back you on this, but something else occurred to me that I didn’t mention…” and then you add something else to the conversation that could potentially be of interest to them. So you’re not just hitting them with “call me, call me, call me, call me.” You’re actually creating value in the communication, which is particularly key when you’re doing sequencing like that. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic of sequencing your communication. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Great to be with you again. I really love that we dive into these things that can have such an impact on your daily business. Oftentimes people will focus on the large things, not understanding that sometimes the smallest tweaks can make all the difference. David: Yeah, and things like this really are kind of diving deep. And many times I know other people in podcasts or in stuff that’s actually going out to the public, they’ll just keep it all high level and not really get into too much. I think we’ve done a reasonably good job over the years of diving a little deeper and getting into things in a little bit more detail. Because it’s important for people who watch this or listen to this to recognize that there are a lot of aspects to all of this. And we touched on this in the previous episode. We were talking about sort of the high level goals, we were talking about the high level concepts versus the nitty gritty of what do I have to do on a day-to-day basis. And this really gets more into the idea of the nitty gritty. But sequencing is something that I don’t hear many people talk about in business. And I think it’s a real game changer for people in the sense that when you get this and you start implementing it, it changes the way that you interact with your prospects and clients to make what you are doing better and more appealing than what your competition is probably doing. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. And back to the idea of focusing on the smaller stuff. I’m weird. I call myself lazy because I want to avoid steps and reduce steps, but in the name of that laziness, I will spend weeks trying to create a system, whether it’s a software system or a planning system or something, just knowing that over the long run, it’s going to have such a dramatic impact. And I can be lazy about that thing after that. And I focus. I mean, if I can reduce one little step, I’ll spend weeks trying to figure out how to do that. David: Yeah. But that’s smart. I don’t think that’s lazy. I think it’s far lazier to just go into each situation, not knowing what’s going to happen, not knowing how to respond to the common objections you get, not knowing how to create a system that will allow you to bring clients through the door like clockwork. And when you do that, you’re basically going into work every day with no idea of what’s going to happen. So I think that’s really lazy and really sloppy and I don’t think what you described is lazy at all. Jay: Well, I don’t, you know, I think you’re probably right, but it is something that drives my wife crazy and it’s really bad. Like when we go grocery shopping, I have a route, and that route has a very specific design. It’s based upon how the groceries are going to end up on the conveyor belt. And that’s important because that determines on how they will go into the bags, because I want the bread on top and all of those things on top. So I have this all planned and thought out from years of experience. It brings me joy, David, it’s, it’s a little, probably obsessive compulsive, but that’s the way I am. David: That’s funny and she still lets you come along. That’s amazing. But it’s a great example though, because when you think about that, and there are two schools of thought when it comes to outcomes, right? You described a more outcome driven approach. And it reminds me of the expression, the road is better than the inn, if you’ve heard that one. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And I remember hearing that years ago and thinking, no, I kind of like the inn, right? I like, where are we going? Let’s get there. Mission accomplished. Onto the next thing. But there are people who just enjoy the experience. Shopping is a great example of that. I have never been a good shopper. Jay: Mm-hmm. At least before online shopping. I was a terrible shopper. As a kid. My mom would drag me around to different stores and she could just look at stuff for hours. I got bored three minutes in. As a kid, I could go to the toy section and I could look around for a few minutes, maybe see something I liked or whatever. Then I’m done. Right? And people are just wired differently in that regard. But I think if we really get down to the core of it, and we start thinking in terms of creating the systems and processes that will allow you to get results in your business, and tying it again back to our main topic, sequencing your communication, what this will allow you to do is to leapfrog your competition. Because you won’t have to think about each step of it. And it really ties to what you were saying about, you know your process in a store. Well, imagine that in business. Imagine a situation where you create a sequence of communications to send out to the prospects that you want to convert, in a specific order, in a specific sequence, at a specific timeframe. You can automate that as well. And design it to accomplish a result Too often in business because we’re sort of focused all over the place, we’re here, we’re there, we’re everywhere. We think in terms of sending a message out to a prospect and waiting for them to reply. And when they don’t reply. We become confused and annoyed. It’s like, why didn’t they reply? I sent you an email. Why didn’t you reply? And it’s cause that’s not the way the world works anymore. Right? I sent you an email. Yeah, it’d be nice if it were like tennis, where you bat it across the other person bats it across, and you bat it across and you have a nice volley going. That happens sometimes, but more often than not, it’s not happening. And if you’re depending on getting that volley hit back to you right away, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Where instead, if you recognize, you may have to send it across the net 3, 4, 5, 7, 10 times before it gets lobbed back, you’ll be prepared. And if you prep that in advance, you are so far ahead of what your competition is doing. It’s just not even funny. Jay: Yeah, I, have this situation going on right now where somebody has sent me an email inviting me to do something. I don’t know who this person is. I’ve never heard from them, and then I don’t respond. And then like four days later, I get an email that says, Hey, you didn’t respond. And I’m like, Well, that should tell you all you need to know. And then I got another one. I’ve sent you two emails and you haven’t responded. This person is sequencing, but they’re doing it in a horrific way. I mean, by the third email, I’m like, who do you think you are? That you can sit here and demand a response from me? And I don’t even know who you are. The whole thing has soured me. I am never going to call them back based upon that type of sequencing. David: Right. And if that’s the type of sequencing we’re talking about, then yeah, don’t do that. That is not what I’m talking about. It’s interesting you should mention that because over the past several months I have received so many messages from people, pitching guests for this very podcast where they’re saying, Hey, I think you should interview this person who’s talking about this thing, and let me know if that’s of interest to you. You know, I’ve listened to your podcast. I think he’d be a great fit. And most of the time I get, you know, pretty much the same pitch for different speakers. So I’m on some kind of list and I normally ignore them. But they’ve got sequences set up where it’s the second one. Hey, just bumping this up to the top of your inbox again, you know, do you want to consider so-and-so for the podcast? And so finally, I just put together the response that I’m sending to people, which is to say, if you listen to this podcast, you would recognize that we are not an “interview of the week kind of thing.” You know, there are two of us who do this. Jay: Yeah. David: If we were a podcast that had a lot of people on and we were interviewing what you said would make sense, and I don’t get into all that much detail. But they’re basically not pitching the right thing to the right person. And so in those situations, yeah, sequencing is not a great idea. But when you’ve got somebody who is engaged or would like to be engaged and you want to find out whether or not they’re on board with you, when it’s done right… And that ties into the MVPs, the messaging, you know, is the messaging going to be good? Which combination of marketing vehicles you’re using to reach them, and who are the people you’re reaching? If you’ve got those three things in sync, then sequencing is going to work extremely well for you. Jay: So let’s talk a little bit more about. Sequencing. I can guess at a, couple of these things. I’m guessing like so many of the things we’re talking about, you want to start with pen and paper and maybe start identifying who your potential customers are. What are potential, the stages that they might be in, and then start focusing on the messaging for each of those stages. David: Yes. And when we think in terms of the overall stages, or the initial stages, where is this person in the journey? If this is somebody that I just met, let’s say I meet somebody at a networking function. We exchange business cards or whatever, I go back to my office, this person goes back to their office and nothing happens until one of us moves, right? So, If I’ve got a sequence in place that says, all right, when I get a lead from a networking function, what I’m going to do is I’m going to initially, either same day or next morning, send out this email message, which essentially says, it was great meeting you at the networking function. Nice having a chance to talk. And then. you have something that you say and obviously it’s going to be different for each person who’s doing that, but you’ve got something that is said in that email that is designed to elicit a response. So you might want to end that email with a question so that they’re likely to initiate a dialogue. Some will initiate a dialogue, some of them won’t. So from that point, if you don’t hear back, you could have another one that goes out a couple of days later like, with a reply to your own message saying, Hey never heard back you on this, but something else occurred to me that I didn’t mention… and then you add something else to the conversation that could potentially be of interest to them. So you’re not just hitting them with call me, call me, call me, call me. You’re actually creating value in the communication, which is also key to good marketing, but it’s also particularly key when you’re doing sequencing like that. And then the third step in your sequence could be calling to follow up. If they gave you a business card, it could be a phone call that comes whatever, a week later or a certain period of time later, and you decide what that is. In our Total Market Domination course, I mean, we walk through all of this so people can decide, can determine for themselves what is a good timeframe to do this in. Because a lot of times if you get a business card from somebody at a networking function and you forget about it? Or you go to a trade show, that’s the worst! You’re paying to have all these people go out to the trade show. You’re paying to put ’em up, you’re paying to feed them. They bring cards back and they stay in the bottom of their briefcase or their suitcase. And those people never get phone calls. It’s just such an incredible waste. But if you’ve got these processes in place to be able to sequence your communication, to be able to get those people back into the zone that they were in, that first initiated the conversation, then they will be far more likely to respond to you and reply to the conversation and keep it going. Jay: Yeah, it’s interesting. I’m in the heat of this process right now, because as you know, I’m setting up a new business. David: Mm-hmm. Jay: building the CRM behind the scenes and I have to ask myself, what are each of the stages and what do I want to happen? What type of communication? And one of the other parts about that, that is so important is, oftentimes, I know when I’ve been put in somebody’s CRM drip system. Because the messages stop being personal and I’m like, you’re sending this out to everybody. So there’s a fine line between having a sequence and making people feel like, oh, they’ve just been put in the hopper. I think we have a high awareness. And so I think that your sequences need to be a combination of personal contact. And these systems that will save you a lot of time and effort. David: Yes, I agree completely. I also think that the way that those sequences are written is going to determine a lot of that as well. Jay: Yes! David: There are people in business, many of us in business have initially been trained on “corporate speak.” And we write in brochure language, instead of in human language. Jay: Yes. David: A lot of what you just described can be overcome simply by engaging in conversational English, even in the messages that are going out automatically. Even in the automated messages where much of the content will be the same. But the way that you’re conveying it still seems more personal and still feels like it’s coming from another human being as opposed to an auto-generated sequence. Jay: Yeah. David, I love this point. And you know, I’ve discovered a way for me to do this. And that is I’ve started using dictation on the computer a lot. Because I don’t know if people notice if they’re watching the video. I have something called Essential Tremors, which causes me to shake. And it’s getting harder and harder for me to type. So I’ve gone to dictation, but I found if I close my eyes and I act like I’m on the phone with the person when I’m doing the dictation, that brochure speak goes away. And so it’s something I don’t have to give a lot of thought to. It’s just a change in how I’m recording that information. David: Yeah, I do a very similar thing on the treadmill in the morning. I’ve got a, a little digital recorder and I’m on the treadmill and I’m moving and I’m recording. It could be a letter, it could be notes for some sort of presentation I’m going to do. But I will record that and I’ll just stop it every few seconds. If you heard those recordings, it’s a lot of heavy breathing and little bits and pieces. And I’ll say three words and I’ll stop and I’ll try to figure out what the rest of the sentence is, and I’ll say that, and then I’ll just take that whole thing and I’ll get it transcribed. And then at that point I can clean up the words and it’s a hundred times easier than trying to sit down in front of a blinking cursor and figure out what I’m going to say next. Jay: Yeah. And that blinking cursor, it does something to us. It changes how, how we record that information. So I love that piece of feedback when it comes to sequencing. Cool. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to top secrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team if you are interested in getting better response from people by thinking things out in advance and sequencing your communication so that people are actually looking forward to hearing what you have to say next instead of dreading it, schedule a call. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. David, once again, it’s a pleasure talking to you. David: Thank you so much, Jay. Are You Ready to Start Getting Better Results by Sequencing Your Communication? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

Wondering how to achieve your goals? Well, achieving goals is quite different than just setting them. So while the first step may be to set the goals you really want, then we have to prioritize our actions from high to low. What is the most important thing that I need to do in order to get there? Because generally, you can come up with a dozen or a hundred different things that you’re going to need to do to achieve your goals. But there’s probably one to three things on there that are going to be more important than the other 97. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will discuss how to achieve your goals. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, so glad to be here, David, and once again, I’m looking forward to this discussion. We hear people talk about goals all the time, and I know for me it’s something that I struggle with because what will happen is I’ll set those goals. I really haven’t defined how I’m going to get there, and then when I don’t achieve them, it becomes something that deflates me. So I think for a lot of people, goal setting can work against them. David: I think it can too, because I believe there is a lot of focus on goal setting, and it’s something that we do, particularly at the beginning of a new year. A lot of people focus on their new year resolutions, which are their goals. And while there’s been a lot written about goal setting, the importance of goal setting, writing things down, reviewing it regularly, having your affirmations and things like that. All of those things are certainly helpful, but they don’t actually, directly connect to the idea of how to achieve your goals. And that’s why I wanted to title this the way that I did, because setting your goals has been done to death, but how do you achieve your goals? I think it’s interesting to explore that aspect of this topic. Jay: Well, yeah. And one of the things that frustrates me is, when people talk about goal setting, they tend to assume that everybody’s the same. Oh, just follow this and you’re great. It’s like, I read The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People and what was never mentioned or considered in that was, it was also seven habits for highly organized people already. You had already achieved a level where all you had to do was put these things in place and you’re good. You can achieve your goals. Well, what about me? I wasn’t raised with systems and those kind of things, so what about me? I didn’t feel like there was any place that I could implement that. David: Yeah. And that is very common. I mean, I think everyone probably deals with that because unfortunately, when you’re writing a book that’s going to be on a shelf for a long period of time, you have to include things that are essentially timeless. And The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I mean, it’s such a great book. It’s a very inspirational read. But when you’ve got rules, like “Be Proactive,” that’s a big, broad rule, right? And in many cases you can be proactive, but what does that mean? It gets down to the nitty gritty. We’ve talked in the past about Michael Gerber, the author of The E-Myth. I love that book. The E-Myth, The E-Myth Revisited. I read the original copy a long, long time ago, and I just loved it, because this was all about processes. And that book talked primarily about the fact that you have to have processes. But then what are those processes, right? Because that’s the part that people like you and I need. It’s like, what are the processes? How do I do that? How do I make that happen? And so much of my career has been focused on that. How do I turn this great recommendation, “be proactive,” you know? Jay: Yeah. David: “Work on your business, not just in your business.” How do I take broad statements like that? To some extent, they become platitudes, and how do I turn that into something that is actionable? Because that is the only way you can ever achieve your goals. You have to be able to convert those great ideas into actionable tasks. Jay: Yeah, such a key point. I think for me, what I found is I have to break it down enough to where I can feel that feeling of success instead of failure. Right? So it’s got to be minute enough to where I can say, okay, I did it. I accomplished something. And it could be something very simple. But that motivates me to the next step. I find if they’re too big, then I’m setting myself up for disappointment. David: Absolutely. But I think anyone who reads any sort of self-help material or business material, if you can take what they’re giving you and then just ask yourself right away, “how do I apply this right now to my business?” Again, Seven Habits, “begin with the end in mind.” Jay: Right. David: I mean, you could find that in a fortune cookie, couldn’t you? It’s brilliant advice, but it’s like, oh, hey, yeah, that’s really great. Now, again, in fairness, because it’s an excellent book… Jay: Yes. David: And he goes into a lot of detail about some different ways that you can do that. But in some sense it has to be general. And that’s why, if you’re able to ask yourself that question, “how do I apply this right now?” It’s going to get you a lot closer to being able to achieve your goals. Because now it’s not about concepts, it’s about you: Your activities, your focus, and what your next step is. Jay: Yeah, so let’s get into a little bit more detail. I’ve asked myself, “how do I accomplish this now?” Is that a list you would write down or how would you recommend people proceed from that point? David: Well, yeah, I think what I would generally want to start with is thinking in terms of resources. What are you going to need to achieve your goals? Okay. because once I’ve written down the goal… say my goal is X amount of dollars in sales by the end of the year. My goal is to sell X number of customers by a certain date. Whatever your thing is, now you’ve got the goal. All right. Well, as I said, the goal is kind of the easy part. Now we need to think in terms of, okay, what are the resources? What are you going to need in order to be able to achieve your goal? Can I do it by myself? Am I going to have to hire additional staff? Hopefully you’re not. But you need to know upfront. Because if you don’t take the time to consider the resources that are needed, versus the resources at your disposal, then you won’t even know if you’re taking actions that are not going to allow you to get to your goal. But if you take the time to think upfront, okay, what are the resources I’m going to need? Who am I going to need? Right? It’s not just about the things. It’s also about the people. Am I going to need additional help with this? And if so, what kind of people am I going to need? There’s an excellent book called Who Not How, by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Ben Hardy. It talks about the fact that when we’re looking to get things done, a lot of times we think in terms of “how am I going to do this?” When in fact we’re often better served by saying, “who can help me with this, who can help me get this done?” And that goes back to the resources. If you have a clear idea of what you’re going to need and who you’re going to need, then it’s going to be a lot easier to achieve your goals. And then ultimately, how much am I going to need? How much am I going to need in terms of resources, in terms of money, in terms of people, in terms of time? Time is always one of those resources that you need to evaluate upfront, and if you don’t do that, you’re never going to get beyond the fortune cookie aspect of what it is we’re talking about here. Jay: Yeah, you’ve kind of brought up negative emotions with me because it reminds me, I grew up in the restaurant business. And before I became an area manager and a regional manager, I remember my area manager coming in every year and we’d have to set sales goals. And so first of all, it was a complete shot in the dark. It was based upon air. Right? Just how much do you want to increase your sales? And second of all, there was never any instruction on how you’re going to do this. And so, how do you do it as a restaurant? I’m not in control of the marketing budget because it was a chain. So what am I going to do? Nobody ever said, well, you can increase your sales by doing A, B, C, and D. They just came in and set this arbitrary goal, and at the end of the year I was beat up because I didn’t reach that goal. And I’m like, this just becomes a bludgeon that creates disappointment. David: Right, because the focus there is on the what. Jay: Yes. David: What is it that I want to accomplish? Just like we’re talking about with goals. This is the goal. Okay. The goal is established very early on. But then every day, every hour preceding that, you need to ask yourself, am I on track? And that’s going to go back to, first of all, do you have a plan in place? Because if you don’t have a plan to achieve your goals, then it’s not going to happen. But then beyond the plan, do I have the resources? Do I have them in place? Am I firing on all thrusters? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Are we doing the things that we need to do in order to accomplish it? And then also just adapting, recognizing that, let’s say you establish your goals today, you lay out a plan today, and you’re starting on it tomorrow. Well, as soon as you start it, it’s like that old quote, I don’t know if it was Colin Powell, some military general talked about the fact that “no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.” Jay: Yes. David: And it’s the same thing with a goal in business. It’s not going to survive contact with prospects and clients. You set your goal in terms of what you want to reach, but every day you’re going to be taking actions, some of which will work and some of which will not. At which point you need to be able to discern what’s good, what’s bad, what’s working, what’s not, so that you can jettison the stuff that isn’t working, do more of the stuff that is, and ultimately achieve your goals, achieve your objectives. But too often, just like New Year resolutions, we write them down January 1st and we don’t think of them again until December when we realized we’re nowhere close, because we never had the plan in place. We never had the resources in place, and we didn’t take consistent action. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And back to my own example, when I became an area manager, I resolved not to be that guy who put my managers in that place. And so I identified an action plan of how you can increase your sales. Starts with excellent customer service. Who are you putting on the front lines? How do you handle complaints? How do you assess your customer service? Then it went to quality of product. Are you following guidelines? Are you building the product the way that it should be? Is it consistent? So there was a checklist that they could go through and then they would see the results happen. To me, that was empowering as opposed to deflating. David: Yes. When you empower your employees with the specific steps they need to take in order to accomplish the objectives, that’s exactly what they need. Jay: Yes. David: You know, there’s a difference between lead measures and lag measures. I’m sure you’re familiar with that concept as well. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And our goals are usually lag measures. I want to be able to get to this amount of sales. But what are the lead measures that are going to make that happen? So when you talk about customer service being a first key, and then breaking that down, what does that mean? If you’re answering a phone, how many rings do you have? Do you have to answer it within three rings or 30 rings? Because that’s going to determine the experience of the customer. You can’t control how the customer’s going to feel, but you can control what you do on the front end to at least help to impact that experience. Jay: Yeah, and we had it as much as, you know, I had a really good employee in the back of the house, but not so good with customers, not a very good communicator. So I’d never put him on that interface with customers. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t help me in other places. So being that specific about each of those goals is so important. David: Yeah, I think so too. And I believe you want to start with setting goals that you really want, that are important to you. Because if you don’t have a really solid, great feeling about it, if you don’t have that driving “why” behind it, I really want this because it’s going to allow me more freedom in terms of my time, or it’s going to allow me to spend more time with my family or do more of the things that I want. If your goals don’t motivate you, then once again, you’re going to forget about them very quickly, or the moment some sort of temptation comes up that’s designed to derail you from your focus. So the first thing is you set the goals you really want, then you prioritize them from high to low. What is the most important thing that I need to do in order to get there? Because generally, you can come up with a dozen or a hundred different things that you’re going to need to do to achieve your goals. But there’s probably one to three things on there that are going to be more important than the other 97. So prioritizing is key. After you’ve set the goals, you got to prioritize what is that list of actions, and then it’s a matter of just focusing on each one. And in a previous podcast, we were talking about declaring independence from business as usual, looking at that and saying, I’ve got to be consistent about implementation because if I’m not, there’s no way it’s going to happen. Jay: Yeah and this last one you mentioned, focusing on getting them done. This is where so many times it falls down. And where if you do have a staff, you can really destroy your credibility. Because again, back to my own experience, company rolls out a new company-wide goal. For three days they’re pounding it and watching it. On day four, and forward? You never hear about it again. That teaches everybody that we just have to stay in line for a couple of days. Then it’s going to disappear. So you’re actually working against yourself at that point. It’s something I resolve to never do. You have to have systems of follow up. You can’t just say, “oh, we’ll follow up.” Have dates, have benchmarks, have things that are built in to help you track where you’re at at all times. David: Right, and just because they stopped talking to you about it after day four doesn’t mean they’re not going to hold you accountable for it. Jay: True. David: They’re still going to hold you accountable for it 362 days later, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: They’re going to say, “Hey, we talked about this. Why didn’t you hit it?” It’s like, “oh, are we still doing that? I forgot about that. That was, that was a long time ago.” Jay: Yeah. Absolutely. Again, I love this discussion, David, how can people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We love having conversations like this with smart, focused, bright business people who are not just interested, but committed to achieve your goals and get to the next level in your business. If you’re just interested, it’s like, “oh, it’s kind of cool. It’s kind of interesting, maybe.” No, forget it. Because that’s not going to get you there. But if you’re serious, if you listen to these podcasts, particularly if you’ve been listening for a long time, if you haven’t scheduled a call yet, do it today. Now’s the time to do it. TopSecrets.com/call. We’ll have a conversation. You’ll love it or you won’t love it. If we’re five minutes in and you say, this isn’t going anywhere. Perfectly fine with that. It hasn’t happened so far, but it could. So you don’t have to feel like you’re locked into anything. If the call does not have value for you, then we’ll drop it. But if you’re open to the idea that there are better ways of doing things that will allow you to achieve your goals and generate more sales in less time, then schedule a call. Jay: Yeah, set a goal to call right now and then follow up on your goal. David: Execute, right? Jay: That’s right. Thanks David. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Achieve Your Goals? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

If you want to increase revenue, upselling and cross-selling can help. So what’s the difference? Upselling means selling a better or a higher priced version of the thing that they’re looking at. Whereas cross-selling is making a recommendation of something that’s compatible. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic of upselling and cross-selling. Are you doing it? Welcome back, Jay Jay: Yeah, hey, thank you, David. Listen, have these bad memories when I was a kid and I was working in a fast food place and the manager was always pressing me, “ask them if they want a Coke, ask them if they want fries.” And I got to a point where it’s hard to upsell and I think this has grown into my adulthood. You know, I just barely got the sale and now I’m asking them for more. It’s not an easy thing to do for people. David: You know, it’s interesting you should mention the fast food example because it’s the perfect example. It’s the one that everyone can relate to. “You want fries with that?” Jay: Yeah. David: Or the shortened version that you hear a lot of times, “want fries with that,” as the four word upsell. And it works extremely successfully for people in that sort of industry. Because it makes sense. Somebody’s coming in, they’re ordering whatever, a burger or something, or they’re ordering a burger and a drink, “want fries with that” makes perfect sense. And some percentage of time they’re going to say yes. And whether that is 1% of the time or 80% of the time, it’s probably maybe 30 to 60% of the time, I would guess, they’re going to say yes. Because it’s like, “oh, all right, sure. Why not? I’m already here.” Jay: Yeah. David: And you hit on a great point, which is that we can feel funny about upselling, if we feel like the purpose is to simply get more money out of a person. If it feels like it’s completely one-sided, if it feels like it’s manipulative, then we’re not going to want to do it. So I personally believe that the times that we should upsell and cross-sell are the times when we truly believe that we have an additional solution that is going to be better for them. Now, in the fast food example, are french fries better for you on top of the Coke and the hamburger? Jay: Yes! David: Probably not from a, health level, but certainly from a satisfaction level, yeah, it’s better. People are likely to want that. But in business, if you’re selling something, and somebody comes to you and they have something very specific they want to buy, and you have something that would be complimentary to that, or something that would go with that really well and would increase the value to the buyer, then you kind of owe it to them to at least ask them if they’re interested in that. Jay: Mm, I love that. I love that idea that if you are feeling uncomfortable, maybe you should ask yourself why. And how do you feel about your product? Are you really providing a value to them or are you just trying to sell something and get a paycheck, right? And I think we all have to ask that question about our own careers and what we’re doing and what we’re selling. But, you know, if you can just feel great that what you’re providing them is going to improve their situation, then you’re just passionate about what you’re doing and that’s going to come through. David: Yeah. So when you are talking to somebody like that, if you’ve got something that is actually going to be a benefit to them, if it’s going to help them, then it’s a lot easier to do it. So that really just boils down to motives. What is the motive? And unfortunately, I think sometimes managers, like in the situation you described in the fast food restaurant, the manager says, “just do this. Ask them if they want this. Push it, push it, push it. Sell, sell, sell.” When instead, if the manager had said to you, Hey, listen, when people come in here, they’re hungry. They want something good. You know, they’ve ordered this, they’ve ordered that other thing, so they might want it and maybe they didn’t think of it. You might want to suggest that. Maybe they want dessert, maybe they want an apple pie at the end, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Apple pie. I’m saying yes to an apple pie, right? And if you don’t ask, you don’t get, and it’s very easy for them to say no. Now, there are situations, and I’ve heard it referred to, particularly in online situations, where there are online upsells where you buy something and then it asks you if you want to buy this and you want to buy that and you want to buy this. Yeah, I’ve heard people refer to that as upsell hell. Now, if you get somebody involved in that, then that’s not good. But if you make a recommendation that makes sense for them, then I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I also have heard this, you know, back to the fast food example, when the person who’s embarrassed to do it, they say, my manager wants me to ask you if you, and I’m like, oh, that’s just the worst situation. But I think, you know, I’ve also had like servers say, ” you should try this because it’s really good.” David: Yeah. Jay: And that’s different, right? That doesn’t sound like an upsell. That doesn’t feel like an upsell. So how you go about it, and are you passionate about it? Do you really believe that? David: Right. Jay: That makes all the difference. David: When my son was traveling, he was in Italy with some of his friends and they went out for dinner one night and they went into this restaurant and the waiter was very happy to see them. Americans there to spend money, and the waiter came over to take for order and one of the guys ordered chicken and he said, “no, no, no, no. You don’t want the chicken. It’s terrible here, get the steak,” right? Now there’s an example of an upsell, I guess. Jay: Yeah, David: Upsold them from the chicken to the steak. The steak was a lot more expensive. Was the chicken there really terrible? I have no idea. But he presented it in a way that made them think, all right, I’ll get the steak. And it was entertaining, too. So I think there are ways of engaging in this type of behavior where if it’s not manipulative, and it actually gets them a better result than you might as well do it. You know, another thing I think that people should consider is that when it comes to upsells and cross cells, it’s not something that always just has to take place at the immediate point of purchase. I mean, obviously that’s a great time to do it, but if someone buys something from you… in the promotional products industry, I mean the, examples are kind of easy. Somebody buys t-shirts or sweatshirts, “want caps with that,” right? Would be the equivalent of french fries. And you can ask and they can say yes or they can say no, whatever it is. But if you don’t do it at the point of sale, you could contact them back maybe a few weeks, a month later. Hey, I just wanted to let you know we just got this new product in. I think it would go perfectly with those shirts you got. Would you be interested in having a look at that? Right? And that’s an example of an upsell or a cross-sell that could take place later. So it’s not like, If you didn’t do it the first time, you can never do it again. There are plenty of opportunities to do that throughout the sales cycle. Jay: Yeah, I agree. And the other thing, I’ve seen some research and it’s something that I’ve implemented that has helped me get over the upsell thing, is that research that I’ve seen shows that the time when people are most willing to spend more with you is when they just spent with you. And that seems counterintuitive, right? Like, I just got this money out of you. You just spent money and you’re willing to spend more. That doesn’t feel exactly right. David: Yeah, but again, if you go back to the fast food example, it does make perfect sense. I’m getting this and I’m getting that. Do I want this too? Yeah, sure, why not? So there is that aspect of it. Now, outside the fast food example, it might not be quite as obvious and there might not be as much of a connection. But once again, I think if we get beyond the idea of selling product, and we get more into the idea of satisfying the customer, what is the customer looking to get from this experience? So in a promotional products example, am I looking to buy shirts? Not so much. I’m looking to buy awareness of my business. Maybe I’m looking to have people wear this thing and have people see it and recognize my business. Perhaps I’m looking for a sense of affinity, that the people who wear it feel good about my company. So there are very deep things that I could be looking for in this purchase. And so if I’m able to connect my additional recommendations, my upsells and my cross cells to those types of things, the things that motivated them to want to do it in the first place, then they’re going to be a lot more likely to say yes. But they’re also going to be a lot more likely to appreciate the fact that you thought about what they actually want and you’re trying to deliver it to them. Jay: Yeah, and then you’re avoiding that salesperson feeling and you’re more like a consultant, as we’ve talked about so many times in these podcasts. I think the other thing that you have to remember, just from a pure business standpoint, we talk about customer acquisition costs a lot, and if you can upsell somebody, That’s product on top of your initial acquisition cost. And then if you can cross-sell them, take your existing lead database and cross-sell them into other products, that by far is a better way to do business than constantly having to find new customers and always paying that cost to get those new customers in the door. David: Yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we’ve done in our training is also suggesting to salespeople that when they’re recommending a product to the customer, you don’t always have to recommend the lowest priced option. Now, there are a lot of customers who are like, I just want the cheapest, I want the cheapest thing. But a lot of times the cheapest thing is not the best option. It’s going to fall apart, or the logos are going to rub off, or it’s not going to be the best thing. So another thing we can do, and this isn’t really related to upselling or cross-selling, but one of the things you can do is you can start out offering something that has a higher value that is a, a better product, a more high-end product, and let them say to you, “no, I want something cheaper.” Right? Because if you don’t do that, and you’re successful in selling them the cheapest thing, congratulations. You could have had this better sale and the customer could have had a better product. So that’s, as I said, not directly related to upselling and cross selling, but when you’re thinking in terms of, “well, what would I do or what would I like?” A lot of times we are more sensitive about other people’s money than they are. And we’re more likely to recommend something that’s cheap, just for the sake of getting the sale, rather than thinking what’s going to serve this person best in terms of what they’re looking to accomplish. Jay: Yeah, I think that’s a great line, that we’re more concerned about their money than they are. Again, looking at research and looking at our own behavior, I think sometimes we feel that if it costs more, it’s going to be better. If it’s cheap, it’s going to be worse. So oftentimes charging a premium, or at least giving them that option, makes them feel like they’re getting something of value. And I’ve seen situations where people didn’t sell very much of a product at a really low price point. So what did they do? Instead of lowering it, they raised it and it actually brought in more sales. There’s a lot of psychology involved in this, but it’s absolutely true and I think the bottom line, if you don’t ask, it’s not going to happen, right? David: Yeah. And also just to clarify real quickly, because we didn’t do this upfront, when I think in terms of upselling versus cross-selling, what’s the difference? Upselling to me means selling a better or a higher priced version of the thing that they’re looking at. Whereas cross-selling is making a recommendation of something that’s compatible. So the hamburger to french fries, that would be more of a cross-sell. An upsell would be upselling from a hamburger to a Big Mac, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: So you’re getting a bigger, better version of the thing that they were looking at. And so again, we’re talking about this in industries where people are selling, not just behind the counter taking orders. So when you think about that, if somebody is looking at investing in whatever t-shirts, well, maybe they would like to get the heavyweight, hundred percent cotton rather than the promotional weight 50/50. Maybe they would like to get multiple colors on there, that type of thing. That would be an upsell. Whereas a cross sell would be, you know, want caps, that type of thing. Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And just talking about promotional products, I can tell a difference when it’s a nice shirt or when it’s just like the cheapest. And so that’s some way that I could use to upsell somebody. Because if you’re putting your name and your logo on it, and it’s not very good quality, you’re sending a message, right? And so that’s a way that I think you can help people understand that it’s important that they consider those types of things. David: Yes. And one thing that you will find out for sure is that if you’re selling promotional products and you sell something cheap to a customer and they buy it and it’s not good, they’re not going to blame themselves. They’re going to say, why did you sell me this shirt? Well, you told me you wanted something cheap. Well, not that cheap. Not so cheap that it is going to be terrible. Oh, I didn’t know. Right? So… Jay: That goes back to the don’t buy the chicken, it’s terrible. Get the steak. Right? David: Exactly. Yeah. Jay: Yeah. Which again, great example, because if I heard that, I’m like, wow, this person cares about me. I’m not thinking, wow, this person wants me to spend more money, right? So it’s all in the attitude and how you convey it. David: Yeah. Jay: All right. How do people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We would be happy to walk you through this stuff. If you’re struggling to increase the average value of your orders, if you’re struggling to bring more customers through the door, or you just need somebody to talk to about how to make things better in your business, TopSecrets.com/call, we would love to have that conversation with you. Jay: Well, and I love our conversations, David. Thank you so much for your time today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Integrate Upsells & Cross-Sells to Increase Value and Help Customers? If so, check out a few ways we can help: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

A lot of people think the goal is to get likes and engagement, but when it comes to using social media in business, conversations and conversions are the metrics that matter. That’s what results in sales. The rest are vanity metrics. Those who think it’s all about views and clicks might be missing the point. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the best use of social media in business. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David I feel like this is one of those areas where I don’t feel confident in myself, but I’m not in a position yet where I’m going to hire somebody to do it. And so, it’s hard to get motivated every day, because I know it’s an important part, especially in my business. Most of our leads come from the internet and social media, so it’s like I don’t know that this is something I should be handling myself. David: I think a lot of people feel that way, and for many of us, social media can be a huge distraction. And in some cases, like, well, the best use of social media is to keep it turned off if you have to actually get things done. But there are benefits to it when it’s used properly, and part of our Total Market Domination course involves working with our clients to help them through the best forms of first contact with a new prospect. And one of those methods is social media. I mean, you can be doing it via cold calls, you can be doing it via networking events, direct mail, lots of different ways to initiate first contact with a new prospect. But many people like the idea of using social media, particularly because it is a one-to-many method of reaching people. You can post something on social media one time, and hundreds of people could see it, or thousands of people could see it. And so it allows you a great deal of leverage much more than if you’re making one phone call at a time or meeting one person at a time. So there are definitely benefits to utilizing it. Of course, with the benefits come the flip side, the detriments that go along with it in some cases. One of the things that a lot of people seem to struggle with is that they go onto social media with one purpose and they end up doing 10 other things that they didn’t plan on doing when they got in there. They don’t end up doing the thing that they actually wanted to do. And so a lot of it, I think, boils down to the fact that we’re not sure what to do. In a lot of cases. We’re not sure, well, what should I post? What should I say? What should it be designed to do? And there’s so much talk among so many people about creating content, and I’ve done classes on this. The fact that content is kind of a misunderstood word. If you think about what is content? Well, content is whatever’s in something, right? If you’ve got a bag, whatever’s in that bag is the content. Could be something good, could be something very bad, right? But whatever’s in the bag. So if you think of it like that and you say, okay, I have to create content. Well, yeah, but you need to do more than just content. You want to make sure that whatever it is that you’re dispersing to the masses has enough value for people that they say, wow, that was actually worthwhile. That was worth my time. So a lot of what we focus on in the communication aspects of what we do with our clients is related to how do we do that? How do we create value in our communications? And I know I’m sort of rattling off all kinds of different things that could be entirely different podcast subjects. But coming back to the idea of the best use of social media, if you think about what it is, I mean, I’ve got an idea of what I believe it is. Do you have any thoughts on that before I spill the beans on what I think here? Jay: Well, I think it’s going to be different for everybody and what type of clientele you have. I’m guessing a key part of this and we’ve spent a lot of money on my end doing this. Is identifying who our end user is, what, what type of client are we trying to attack? When we first started it, we were and I’ve told you this story before, we were attacking so many leads. It was blowing us out of the water. But the leads were not closing, and so we had to narrow that field, finally to a point where we could just get potential leads. In order to do that, we spent a lot of time around a table figuring out who that potential client is and what are the keywords that are going to be interesting to them? And when you talk about posting content, if you’re just shooting in the dark and you haven’t identified who your target is, then you’re going to spend a lot of time on social media spinning your wheels, and you may be chasing people away or just making them disinterested because you haven’t put in the time ahead of time to really have an impact. David: Yeah. When I think about having an impact on social media. And I want to be really transparent here too. I have not used social media nearly to the extent that other people have to get clients. We have other methods of first contact that are extremely effective that work really well. And so don’t look to me as the expert on this, but what I can tell you is that to the extent that we have done this effectively, the way that we’ve done that is using social media for the primary purpose of initiating conversations. So when I think in terms of the best use of social media, For me, but I also believe for most other businesses, the best use of it is to be able to initiate a conversation with someone else. So if I’m able to post something that’s interesting enough to get someone to comment back, and then I can reply to that comment and then they reply to that, now we’re actually in a conversation. And of course, conversations is exactly where sales happen. You don’t have sales generally, if you’re a salesperson without having a conversation. Now that could take place via text. It could take place via Messenger. Maybe it takes place in comments. It could take place on the phone, in person. Lots of different ways to do it. “When it comes to social media in business, most people focus on likes and clicks. And while that might feed the algorithm, I still believe the metrics that matter are conversations and conversions. Conversations and conversions result in sales. The rest are vanity metrics.” — David Blaise But if we think about it from that standpoint, it makes things a little easier, because when we’re on social media, we are programmed to think in terms of likes and think in terms of shares and things like that. And likes and shares are fine. Shares are probably better than likes in my view, because it gets it in front of more people. And if the content is good, then it expands your horizons a bit. But if a bunch of people like your stuff and it doesn’t lead to conversations, then what really happened? Their likes might get it in front of more people, because I think that’s how the algorithm works. But, if people are not actually engaging with it and initiating conversations with you, then I believe there’s a lot of opportunity that is lost. And when you talk about delegating this kind of thing, hiring other people to create social media for you. If they don’t know what the goal is, then the stuff they create is not likely to produce the result. When they think the goal is to get likes, then they’re going to create content that is designed to get likes. If the goal is to interact with people, initiate conversations with people who could potentially buy from you, then what we’re doing on social media has to be completely different. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. I also think you know, you talked about conversations. It actually has become a very important part of the algorithm that you get comments and more importantly, that you reply to those comments, whether or not they’re important or not. If you could reply in such a way that they respond back then that’s going to increase the algorithm. So that’s an important part just to get it seen by more people. But then if they’re actually interacting with you, you’re now building the relationship. And I think oftentimes we forget relationships are the most important part of our business. Anytime I close a sale, when I’m done, I almost feel like I’ve gained a new friend. And in a lot of ways, I have. Somebody that I’m providing a service for, they appreciate that service. And it all starts with a conversation somewhere, like you said, on the phone, in the comments, that’s where it’s all going to begin. David: Yeah. I think also tracking what’s going on is important, and a lot of people don’t do that. They have a vague idea of, oh, this got a lot of likes. I got a bunch of comments here or there. People seem to like this one or that one. But none of that is really tangible enough to be able to justify, in some cases, the amount of time that goes into it. So if you track how much time you’re putting into it and you’re able to track how many leads you get as a result of it, and by leads, it may just be something as simple as having a conversation with someone, whether it is in the comments or whether it is through DMing, that type of thing. Then you’ve got some metrics. You’ve got some basic metrics to look at, to say, “okay, I put an hour and a half into this and I had two people enter into conversations with me.” Is that worthwhile? Well, let’s keep track of those two people. What happened? Were they even prospects? Did you get them qualified as quickly as possible? Were you able to sell to anybody who might have actually been interested in buying? Was it worthwhile? Because if you can make a decent volume sale with an hour and a half involvement on social media, then you can say, all right, that was worthwhile. If you put in an hour and a half on it and you have no conversations with anyone, then you keep track of it and you say, okay, well how much have I been putting in? Have I put in 10 hours, 15 hours, a hundred hours? And if so, how many conversations have I engaged in? How many of them led to actual sales conversations and did it generate a single dollar? And if it didn’t, then you either need to look at, is it the marketing vehicle itself? Is it the social media? Is that the problem? Am I not connected with the right people? Or am I not saying the right things? Goes back to what we talked about in a lot of these episodes, the MVPs of marketing and sales. Is my messaging right? Am I using the right combination of marketing vehicles and who are the people or prospects that I need to reach. If things aren’t working, it is always at least one of those things, sometimes more than one. Jay: Yeah. Such a great point. Tracking is, and, and measuring such an important part about social media. We started doing this a while ago and it never fails. The posts that I thought were not going to go anywhere, they blow up. And the ones where I was so proud of them and they just went nowhere. I have hashtags in my database and anytime something breaks like a thousand views, that to me is something. And I don’t know why, you know, I’ll do three posts, they average 300, and then the next one will have 12,000. And I don’t claim to know what the difference was. But I can see as I go along that there are trends in the description, you know, in the headline? Sometimes your content is great, but there’s a skillset in just knowing what to title your videos and your posts. That’s why I’ve also become a big fan of focusing on what your skillsets are. And so I do want to point out, it’s so easy nowadays to find people who are talented and skilled in this area on sites like Fiverr or Upwork. And so it may just be that you need to hire some help to do this for you, and then you focus on the conversations and on the closing. David: Yes, and if you are hiring someone, you need to let them know what your priorities are. Because a lot of people who do that sort of work, they think the goal is to get likes and engagement, and to some extent it is engagement, but the engagement needs to lead to the conversations that are going to result in sales. If they think that you’re going to be happy with just getting views and clicks, then they may be missing the point. Jay: Yeah. And you know, this happened to me. I ran for public office a couple of times and brought in an advertising firm, and they don’t really take the time to get to know me. And so every time we’d sit down and they’d show me what they’re going to post and stuff like this I’m having to repeat myself. Like they’re locked into this specific thing. And I’m like, that doesn’t match who I am and who I’m trying to attract. So that’s such an important first step in the process. Who are those customers? What is the message they want to hear? Can we provide valuable content? And how do we get them to get their fingers on that keyboard? David: Yeah, exactly. So just thinking those things through, recognizing that there should be a goal, there should be some tangible measure measurement. And if you just focus on that, you will probably create better results with your social media. Jay: Yeah, fantastic discussion, David. How do people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team if you’re struggling with this. If you need to be able to get more clients, more quickly, whether it’s on social media or outside of social media, we’d love to have the conversation to see if we can help. So it’s TopSecrets.com/call. Jay: As always, David, such a pleasure talking to you. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Start Getting More Sales from Your Social Media? If so, check out a few ways we can help you grow your sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Hosted by David Cowen | Careers and the Business of Law Fresh off four days at McCormick Place in Chicago, David Cowen sits down with Oyango Snell, President & CEO of CLOC, for a post-CGI debrief. The energy on the floor was unmistakable: this is not the same industry it was twelve months ago. From Second City opening every morning to standing-room-only sessions on AI maturity, CGI 2026 signaled that the legal ops community has moved from anxiety to confident curiosity. WHY THIS MATTERS The legal industry is no longer asking if AI matters. It's asking how to measure it. With budgets flat and demand rising, legal ops professionals are being forced to get strategic. This conversation captures the mood of the market and where the next five years are headed. KEY TAKEAWAYS Attendees came with hands-on experience and real questions. Anxiety is out, confident curiosity is in. Legal ops has moved from chaos to at least ad hoc, if not operational, on the maturity arc. "Do more with less" is hogwash. Flat budgets plus rising demand requires strategy, not just effort. AI won't replace jobs. People who leverage AI will replace those who don't. A growing economy means more demand for legal services. The doomsday narrative doesn't hold up. Education is the new currency. CLOC Academy is hitting the road to reach those who can't make it to CGI. Legal ops sits at the intersection of law and technology. That's the superpower. Own it. CGI 2027 is back at the Aria in Las Vegas. Pro tip from David: Thank the speakers. Easiest networking move there is. Pro tip from Oyango: Own your professional stake. Relationships are built through follow-up, not just introductions. PEOPLE MENTIONED David Cowen, Host Oyango Snell, President & CEO, CLOC Kevin Clem, Harbor; co-author of the State of the Industry Report Zach Kass, CGI 2026 Keynote Speaker Mary O'Connell, Market leader, referenced Connie Brenton, Founder and CEO, LegalOps.com COMPANIES & ORGANIZATIONS MENTIONED CLOC, Corporate Legal Operations Consortium; host of CGI and legal ops community anchor Harbor, Co-produced the 2026 State of the Industry Report with CLOC Second City, Opened each day of CGI 2026 and set the tone for the conference Anthropic, Ivo, OpenAI, Among the vendors actively hiring legal tech talent SOLID, Legal career and education community; Solid New York on October 1st CLOC Academy, Educational arm of CLOC, now going on the road beyond CGI

Are your priorities BS? Well, focusing on that area in particular, looking at what are the things in my life that really are important to me? What are the actions that I want to take and need to take that are important to me? Even if they’re not urgent, how can I get those things scheduled so that they have a better likelihood of getting done? David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will discuss the topic Are Your Priorities BS? Welcome, Jay. Jay: Hey, David, as always, such a pleasure to be with you. And another great topic. I think that it’s so easy to just do the squirrel thing or the squeaky wheel gets the grease and we don’t really know what our priorities should be a lot of the time that’s half the battle I think. David: Yeah, I think that’s true. Knowing what our priorities are and recognizing that a lot of times they’re not really what we think they are. And most of the time when I talk about stuff on these podcasts, it’s not because I’m particularly smart, is because I feel like I’ve made every stupid mistake that anyone can make. And so if I can help our listeners and viewers to avoid doing some of those things, then that’s a pretty good service. And when I think about priorities and I reflect on the priorities that I’ve had over the years and over my life, I recognize that we have priorities that we really put out there. We say, okay, this is what’s important to me. What’s important to me is my family. What’s important to me are my friends. What’s important to me is, whatever, losing weight, like if we have goals, my my priority is to do this and to do that, and all these different things. And then when we look at our actions and we realize that our actions don’t really line up with what we say our priorities are, it raises the questions are our priorities BS? And I think in some cases, even when we don’t realize it, they might be. Jay: Yeah. First of all, I’d say there’s nothing wrong with learning in the school of hard knocks. I mean, sometimes those are the best lessons we can learn. But I also think it, we can spin our wheels a lot trying to reinvent the wheel, so learning from other people can help expedite that process. Right? Which is why I’m glad you’re so willing to share the trials that you’ve had. I think that that’s so critical. But I think you’re right. We’ve talked a lot in the past about self assessment. Can you really look at yourself and know what your weaknesses are and what your strengths are? And oftentimes, I think you’re right. We think something is a priority for us, but in the grand scheme of things, and according to our own actions, it’s really not. And we’re kind of fooling ourselves. David: Yeah, and the way that I’ve actually sort of worked through some of this is recognizing that there’s a really big difference between our stated priorities, the things that we say are priorities to us, and then our actual priorities, meaning the priorities we act on the things that we do, the actual steps that we take or don’t take. Because if our priority is to spend time with our family and our actions are that we’re working all the time and we’re not spending time with our family, then we have two different sets of priorities, our stated priorities that always sound good, and then our actual priorities, which is what we’re doing on a daily basis. Jay: Yeah, I see this all the time in like TV reality shows. I don’t know why this comes to mind, but you see people saying, my family is the most important thing to me, and they’re working 80 hours a week at their career, or their job. And I’m sitting there thinking, Hmm, no, I don’t think you really understand what your priorities really are. David: Yeah, and most people are sincere, I think, when they say those things. It’s just that in many cases, life interferes. And when we allow life to interfere, then it turns out that our actual priorities are different than the ones that we’re telling ourselves and telling other people. Jay: So how do we sift through that? How do we do that self assessment and really identify what our core priorities are, and maybe we need to identify them as BS and head in a different direction. David: Well, I put together a worksheet. You can download it here. It’s very simple. It’s basically got stated priorities on the left and actual priorities on the right, and what you do is you list down on the left hand side all the things that I tell other people and that I tell myself are my actual priorities. And then you just keep an eye on what you’re doing every day. Did I take action on my top priority on the left hand side of the page? And if I didn’t, what did I do instead? If my goal is to write a book and instead I slept until 10:30, then I’ve got a stated priority and I’ve got an actual priority. And so when I’m working with clients, these are some of the things that we look at. What is it that is most important to you? What is it that you believe, that you truly believe is most important to you? What do you believe your priorities are, and then what are the actions that demonstrate what your actual priorities are? Jay: Yeah, and I think, people have specific priorities, but they get trapped in the every day. So it’s not like it isn’t my priority and the priority’s not really BS. What is BS is that I’m, not doing anything towards it. I’m letting my business run me instead of me running my business. David: Yeah, I mean, a personal one for me is like I’ve been losing and gaining the same 10 pounds for probably 20 years, right? So if my priority is actually to lose 10 pounds or whatever it is. But then I have a conflicting priority, which is, “oh, dessert!” Right? Then those two things are in conflict. And every time I choose the dessert, which is the actual priority, it’s the action that happens over the stated priority of losing the weight, then it really is BS. It’s BS to say that this is the goal, if the actions on the right hand side of the sheet are not going to correspond to that. And that’s where I feel like, by calling ourselves out on it, it might encourage us to take the actions that we need to take to accomplish the results we’re looking for and to really get our priorities in order. Jay: Yeah, and let me tell you, there’s nothing to be ashamed of, of breaking even on weight loss. David .Losing 10, gaining 10, at least you’re not completely losing that battle. So that’s something to be proud of. So we talked about the worksheet and identifying your priorities. And making sure they’re not BS. I’m guessing then you want to set a path, you’ve got to break that down into smaller chunks or something. You can’t just say, “oh yeah, that’s my new priority,” or that I’ve identified it. You’ve got to talk about how you’re going to get there. Right? David: Right. So when we look at the left side of the page and we compare it with the right, and we determine that, okay, our actions are not in line with our priorities, then it’s a matter of looking at each of those priorities and breaking each of those down into projects and tasks essentially. So a project is anything that requires more than one action. A task is basically one action, right? That’s the way I break it out. So if there are a series of three or four things that I need to do to accomplish that, then those are three or four tasks. If there are three or four or five or 10 related things that belong to an entire project, then I put it in the form of a project. And the way that I manage my time is that I use a time planner that allows me to use different colors for different things. So I use one color for projects and another color for tasks because I can look at it and say, okay, here’s a task. This is something I can knock out relatively quickly. And when you know which goals, which priorities your projects and tasks line up with, then you can always be taking action on something that is actually important to you. Jay: Yeah. And I think you’ve hit on something very key as part of this process is by writing things down, by having a color code, by doing those things, you’re giving yourself kind of back testing, right? So you can look back and say, okay, you know, do a monthly assessment. I know people who spend a couple hours on Sundays just reflecting back on their previous week and saying “Did I really make my priorities, priorities?” And so that process of writing it down, whether it’s digitally or some people still use day planners, you know, they actually still use paper. That drives me crazy. But I understand, because that’s got to be an important part of the process. David: Yeah. And I think the calendar is really an important part of the process because we could do another podcast called “To-Do Lists are BS,” right? Because I feel like in a lot of cases they are. If you have a to-do list that has a hundred things on it and you don’t get to most of them… If you’re getting to the most important things, then it’s worthwhile. But if you’re not, then how do you fix that? And generally, the only way that I’ve ever been able to fix it is to budget time on the calendar for those specific activities, block it off just like you would any other appointment and say, “okay, from this time to this time, this is what I’m doing.” Turning off the phone, not answering calls focused on doing this just as if I were having a meeting or an appointment and making that appointment with yourself. I’m sure I’m not the first person to recommend something like that, but for me, just moving things from a to-do list onto a calendar helps a great deal. As long as you’re willing to follow through on what’s on your calendar. And if you’re not, yeah, then you got some real issues. Jay: Yeah, it’s really a place where I struggle. I kind of have a good idea where my priorities are, but moving them into a schedule, I still have the tendency to just kind of do whatever I feel I want to do. that’s the life I want to live, as opposed to the things that are most important in that moment. And that comes from the fact that I haven’t identified and categorized them by level of importance. And so, again, I’m letting the mayhem of the day, and my own emotions, dictate what I’m working on at any given time. David: Yeah, I remember reading the book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, and he referenced, I think it’s called the Eisenhower Matrix. I think Eisenhower is the one who came up with it originally or popularized it. You can download it here The idea that you draw a cross on a piece of paper and you break out your priorities according to urgent and important. So one of the Sections is urgent and important. Another one is urgent, but not important. Another one is not important, but urgent. And then not important. And not urgent. Okay, that’s it. Breaks out something like that. And of course, the things that are not important and not urgent are probably the things we shouldn’t do at all. But very often they’re the easiest things to do. They’re the most tempting, and they get the attention. The things that are urgent and important tend to get done because they’re urgent and you have to do them. But the sweet spot is the area that is not urgent but important, and that’s the area that tends to get neglected in favor of the other areas. So, even doing something like that, breaking it out and saying, “okay, what are the most important tasks that I need to get done? What are the most important actions I need to take that I haven’t taken that are not time sensitive?” Because that’s what always nails us. If there’s something that’s time sensitive, that’s going to jump in ahead. And then the other category of not important but urgent, a ringing telephone, for example. Some people might view that, if they’re required to answer it, as urgent. And in that case, you don’t know who’s going to be on the other end. You have no idea how it matches with your goals or your priorities. You end up taking the call and at that point you can be derailing your success. So focusing on that area in particular, looking at what are the things in my life that really are important to me? What are the actions that I want to take and need to take that are important to me? Even if they’re not urgent, how can I get those things scheduled so that they have a better likelihood of getting done? Jay: Yeah, I love that. So figuring out first what your priorities currently are. Are they BS? Then identifying what you really want those priorities to be, and then creating a plan and scheduling that plan. Such great advice. How do people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. If you’re struggling to get to the results you’re looking for because of whatever, if it’s time management, if it’s a failure to actually address your own priorities, you know, there are combinations of things that can help. One of the things that I think we struggle with sometimes, and this might be a good topic for a future podcast, is the fact that in some cases, we think that more energy and more effort is going to fix the problem. But if the things that we’re doing are designed to create average results, then putting time and energy into them is just going to create average results faster. It’s not going to create exceptional results. And so by changing the activities that we’re engaged in, maybe changing the way that we’re doing some of those things, the results change dramatically. So if that makes sense to you, if you’d like to have a conversation, TopSecrets.com/call. We would love to talk with you about that. Jay: All right, David, we really appreciate you sharing your experience and what you’ve learned from trial and error and this service that you offer where people can just talk about it, because I think that’s a great place to start. Thank you so much for joining us today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Take Action on Your Real Priorities? If so, check out a few ways we can help you grow your sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Did you know American music legend Nile Rodgers is helping the Trust plant and protect woodland in Northern Ireland? Alongside generous donations to Faughan Valley Woodlands from the We Are Family Foundation (WAFF), Nile has got stuck in with planting on site. Nile and the foundation he co-founded with his partner, Nancy Hunt, are working with us to reconnect fragmented native woods in a region where less than 1% of ancient woodland remains. We caught up with the multiple Grammy Award winner on his latest visit to find out why. We also hear from David Saddington, trustee of both WAFF and the Trust, on why empowering young people to take direct action is key to this work, and we chat to some of those volunteering at this special event. Please note this episode contains references to drugs. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk  Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Nile: But it just made me feel so good. It was so real, it was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin, I was doing music *laughs*. Nile: So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, 'well, I wish I could play like him, I wish I could do that'. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. Nile: We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family. Nile: Trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist. Adam: For 40 years, if you've been on a dance floor, you'll have been dancing to the music of one of our guests today. He co-founded Chic, produced and collaborated with David Bowie, Madonna, Richard Jackson, and well, to be honest, too many others to mention. But to give you an idea of the sort of musical success he's had, I can say that he has produced and performed on records which have sold more than 750 million albums and 100 million singles. Born to teenage parents in an environment where drug use was very much part of his every day, he has come from that background with an attitude to life which is as upbeat and as positive as his music. And together with his partner, Nancy Hunt, they have established the We Are Family Foundation, focused on empowering young people around the world. Together, they're in Northern Ireland, in Derry, to support and protect and indeed restore woodland in this country, and indeed Nile is on the Woodland Walks sofa and joined by one of the trustees of the We Are Family Foundation and indeed the Woodland Trust, David. So we'll come to David in a moment. Why don't we start now where it all started with the music? Reading about you and listening to stuff you've done, my impression is you're the most positive person I've read about and that surprises me because of the disjointed background you grew up in. So two questions. Do you think that's a fair description and if so, why? Nile: So the... the interesting thing about my childhood was that though my parents were heroin addicts, they were extremely loving and they believed in me so much so that, believe it or not, I was never, ever told what to do. They knew that I instinctively would figure it out. Or I was just one of those nerdy, nice kids that they knew would never get into trouble. I mean, I have never stolen anything. I've never, I bullied one kid once and the reason why is because everybody bullied me because I was a nerd. And when I bullied this kid, he started crying and I started crying. He's probably forgotten that incident. I will never forget it. It'll bother me my entire life. I could not believe that I did that. So my childhood was actually on one level very happy, but at the exact same time, and I don't know how these two situations could have coexisted, except only now forensically, but it was super happy, but then I actually called my childhood a fear-based childhood. I was afraid of things, so I did things to make me unafraid or happy. And music was that thing. But it just made me feel so good. It was so real. It was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin. I was doing music *laughs*. Adam: I mean, it's weird you describe yourself as a nerd. You're the least nerdy-looking nerd I've ever come across, but fair enough. Nile: Oh God, test me. Adam: Oh really, okay, we'll do a nerd off *both laugh*. Fair, fair enough. But that positivity, I mean, you talk about being nice, but what I think is striking about your music, and perhaps problematic for some of it, is that it's relentlessly positive. And I think sometimes it's seen as sort of very surface level because of that and yet you talk about the deeper meaning behind the music, which I think some fans of yours perhaps don't see, or that's not what they're getting from it. Nile: But that's okay, though. Adam: That's fine. Nile: It's okay. Yeah, you're so correct. I mean, I'll try and quickly just tell you this story. So when I said I was a nerd, believe me, I studied music on a level that was so intense, that was ridiculous. So I thought it was my job to prove to my tutors and various teachers how smart I was, how well I learned the rules and the discipline of music. I wrote symphonic music when I was a child, I wasn't even 10 years old yet. And I remember I was going to one of my tutors. I was around 22 years old and I was a very serious jazz student. And I went into him one day with a very sourpuss attitude and look, and that was not me. He just was like, no, you're always so happy and you're always so upbeat. What's wrong with you today? And I said, well, look at this ******** pop music that I have to play tonight. Now, maybe I thought it was sort of ******** but maybe I was just trying to score brownie points with him because I always thought being a great musician was being the smartest guy or the greatest virtuoso in the room. So what happened was my teacher, I showed him the list of songs that I was playing that night. And I said, look at what I have to start my set with. This song by The Archies called Sugar, Sugar. He said, yeah, but now what's wrong? Why are you so sad? And I said, because I got to play Sugar, Sugar. You know, I want to play straight ahead jazz. He was like, that's okay that you want to play straight ahead jazz, that's what I love. But why is it bothering you to play Sugar, Sugar? And I said, because it goes, *sings* Honey, do, do, do, do, do, do, oh sugar, sugar, do, do, do, do, do, do, you are my candy girl, and you got me wanting you. And he said, Nile, that's a great composition. I went, you call Sugar, Sugar a great composition? He said, absolutely. He said, what do you think about it? He says, and I went, well, it sucks. It's some ******** bubblegum pop music. And he went, now, do you know that Sugar Sugar's been number one for about three weeks? And I said, yeah, but what does that got to do with anything? And he went, so those millions of people around the world, they're wrong, but you, Nile Rodgers, are right? And all of a sudden I felt, uh-oh, *laughs* something weird's getting ready to happen. So he held me behind my head and he pulled my face close to him and he said, Nile, let me explain something to you. Every record in the top 20 is a great composition. And so remember, we're going back now 50 years. I'm 73 years old, so we're going back a long time. And I say, every record in the top 20 is a great composition? He says, yes. I said, why would you say something so absurd? He says, Nile, because it speaks to the souls of a million strangers. And I literally started crying at that moment because in one spark, in a nanosecond, he explained to me what an artist was. So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, well, I wish I could play like him. I wish I could do that. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. It was the person who made people feel something, be it happiness, be it sadness or whatever. But a lot of my friends who are virtuosos, we just would go, wow, he can play his *** off. That was the thing. We didn't feel anything necessarily. Sometimes we did, but I was determined to try and make people feel something every time. And to me, I wanted people to feel happy because I wanted to feel happy. Why do I want to write sad music? Adam: So that phrase, speaking to the souls of a million strangers, it's clearly an iconic thing about your music. The other striking thing, I think, which you've talked about, is about life, not just your music, but I think obviously connected, is not about surviving the storm, but learning how to dance in the rain. Is that one of the tenets of your approach to music and life? Are they the same thing? Nile: That's exactly it. That's why people wonder why I do so much music, and it's because I believe that I could always, I honestly, and this is not an egotistical statement, I always believe that I can add something to the song. I believe that I can make it better, even if it's just a little better, but you can hear it. I mean, five minutes before I came down here, I asked an artist that I sent a piece of music to, I said, you never wrote me back. How do you feel about the guitar streams that I sent you? And Kygo just wrote me, he said, he just literally just wrote me, where the hell is it? I went, cool. He went, oh, yes sir, sounding really cool *laughs*. Minutes ago. Adam: Okay. So look, we need to talk more about that, but I want, you're here not for the music, but for the work of your, and Nancy, your partner's, foundation. And David Saddington, sitting next to you, is a trustee of that foundation. You also happen to be a trustee of the Woodland Trust as well. So the purpose of the We Are Family Foundation is what? David: I mean, the We Are Family Foundation, Nile and Nancy started 20, 25 years ago now, which is insane *both laugh*. And Nile, I mean, you'll tell it better than me in terms of sort of your origin story, which came from, you know, a horrendous event of 9/11. And Nile and Nancy wanted to do something positive for the world, to heal the world. And thankfully, you know, when they sort of asked that question around how do we sort of have more peace in the world, how do we have more harmony, young people came out as the answer and actually finding that hope, finding that positivity, finding those solutions. So the foundation really is built upon curating, nurturing and growing this talent and giving these young people visibility. Adam: And the work that the We Are Family Foundation is starting to do in Northern Ireland, we were today at a planting with Nile and Nancy and you. What is the project here? David: Yeah, my God, like, you know, I work on climate change every day. It's really sort of hard and difficult, but actually by doing something very local with the Woodland Trust, you make such a tremendous difference, not only just about place, but the communities which you bring along. So this partnership just made a lot of sense. And then when we started talking after that visit around sort of why it made sense to support from the foundation, Northern Ireland came out really as a winner. And the beautiful site we visited earlier in the Faughan Valley is so special because, in a sad way really, because so little of the ancient woodland is left in Northern Ireland, less than 1%. And the vision of the Woodland Trust in Northern Ireland to preserve those tiny fragments of ancient woodland, but protect them by restoring the land around it, letting them expand, is so special. And particularly given that site is, what, I mean, like 10 minutes away from Derry? That's so cool. It is right on the doorstep of so many people to restore such a precious habitat, but make sure that people can actually enjoy it and be part of that as well. Amazing. Adam: A little before Nile and I sat down to speak, we both visited Faughan Valley Woodlands with a group of young people who were there to help plant some trees. Now, this is an important area. Since 2000, the Woodland Trust has brought small clusters of native woodlands, including Brackfield, Oaks, Red Brae, Burntollet, Killaloo and Auter, all fragmented along the Faughan Valley, which is a site of special scientific interests. And it's been a vision of the Woodland Trust Northern Ireland for well over a decade, really, to try and connect these fragments for both people and nature. And so when I met the younger people who are busy planting trees, I asked them why they felt what they were doing was important. Speaker 1: So usually it's around every Sunday morning. We go around and it's just odd jobs, like it's never the same thing every week. It's usually planting trees, but recently we've been building fences to keep sheep out and removing tree guards. Adam: And why are you interested in that instead of watching TV or playing Xbox or whatever? Speaker 1: Well, I've always kind of liked outdoorsy stuff in nature and usually I wouldn't really do much on a Sunday. So it's just better to get out rather than do nothing on a Sunday morning so. Adam: And you're about to plant a tree. Speaker 1: Yeah. Adam: Do we know what type of tree that is? Speaker 1: I think it's oak. Adam: Oh, there we are see, I don't know, but you know, go on plant away. Speaker 2: I'm Sophie McGee. Adam: And what are you doing, Sophie? Speaker 2: Well, we're planting trees today for the 30th anniversary. It's just more interesting because we're actually doing something that's worthwhile for the environment and for ourselves. Adam: And do you feel you're making a difference? Speaker 2: Yes, every tree will help. No matter if it's a wee tiny stick or a big massive one. Speaker 3: Well my name is Evie, I'm 13 years old and I've always been interested in nature and plants and animals and stuff and then my auntie decided, or she showed me the Woodland Trust young volunteers so I thought that sounds right up my street. So I joined, I've only been here for a few weeks and so far I've really enjoyed it. We've been trimming down, we've been trimming away trees that'll grow back to let light into the forest floor. We've been looking at different kinds of moths and caterpillars and we've been for walks and here we are planting trees and meeting celebrities! Speaker 4: My name's Milo and you know we're with the Woodland Trust, you know, planting trees and stuff because, well, you know, trees are important and they support a lot of species and insects and wildlife and it's great for the water quality and soil erosion in general. And in my opinion personally, I think biodiversity is really important, especially in, the UK and Northern Ireland in general. It's just seem to be really sort of nature depleted and, you know, I kind of want to change that. I think it doesn't seem fair, you know? Adam: Nile, I think the phrase we've already used many times is We Are Family, the name of one of your most successful songs, but obviously the name of your foundation. And we've talked about your family. That's an obvious theme, family. I'm struck by that because of a disjointed background, even though loving and literarily full. Your family were artists and you had a full and rich literary life. The connection to family, clearly a theme for you. Why? Nile: It wasn't my idea. It was other people's ideas. And they talked me into it. I, as an artist, I wrote We Are Family for Sister Sledge and for Sister Sledge alone. I didn't write it for the world. I wrote it for them. And they, it was their job to now take it out into the world, which they did very well. But what happened as a byproduct of the composition was just the love that I put into the song that my partner Bernard Edwards and I put into the song, we were trying to talk about this wonderful family, you won't believe this, that we never met. We never met Sister Sledge until they came in to sing the song. The entire album was already produced. We didn't know any other way to make records except for by ourselves. So we made the record and said, okay, now sing this. And they were like, what? We've never been treated like this. We're like, we don't know any other way to make records. Me and Luther Vandross and Bernard Edwards and Tony Thompson, and we go in and we write and produce, and there you go, here's your record. But so the love that we projected onto Sister Sledge was something that we superimposed upon them. We don't know whether they liked each other or not. We just presupposed that they did. And that's what we wrote, this loving, anthemic, wonderful dance song. And Kathy Sledge, at 15 years old, came in and just gave the performance of her life. We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family *both laugh*. It was the final song that we wrote, right? So we wouldn't let them come in. We're inside trying to be professional. And they're like, why can't we come in and hear what you guys are making as demos? Making as demos? No, we made, it's the record. But anyway, what happened was, as a result of the popularity of the song, this baseball team in America, the Pittsburgh Pirates, adopted it as their theme song. And they're not women, they're men. And we saw these big burly men going, we are family, I got all my sisters with me. And I was like, whoa. And anyway, they won the World Series *laughs*. Adam: But I mean, that's a fascinating insight how you made that song. But what I'm struck by is that you have talked about this deeper hidden meaning, your phrase, right, behind your songs. So that's an obvious question to ask. You talk about family. It's a key song in your career. It hints of the deeper meaning here is about the importance of your family. And your family are unusual. Super talented people, not particularly stable, I hope that's not insulting or anything. But it's sort of, I'd expect you to maybe be more traumatised by that or to have, but no, it's all good. It's all good. Nile: It wasn't, you see, it wasn't traumatic because I developed my own survival mechanism and it was actually good. But I don't think you realise this. I said, everybody told me, oh, you got Grammys, you got this, you're the head of the Songwriters Hall of Fame, you're the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I said, you know what? The thing that I am the most proud of in my life is at seven years old, I set the national truancy record for the United States of America *both laugh*. I cut school 75 days in a row and went to the movies. I learned more at the cinema in 75 days than everybody in my class learned in an entire semester. You could see Fellini, you could see Truffaut, you could see anything. My mom, when she had her second child, suffered from postpartum depression and threatened to murder my brother every day. So after a few weeks, and I can't remember how long it took because I was a child, but after her going to psychiatrist every day, that's how bad it was, they decided that she had to be separated from her children. She was a danger to herself and others. So they sent me off to Los Angeles to live with my maternal grandmother. And my youngest brother, who was just born, was sent to live with his paternal grandparents. And so while I was in Los Angeles, I was treated ah man, boy, talk about bullying. Every place in LA was sort of run by gangs. And I didn't know anything about the gang culture. And I spoke like a New Yorker. And everybody in LA was, you know, street slang. And, you know, and now look at how big hip hop is. You know, that's the way that that everyone spoke. I didn't know half the stuff they were saying. So kids would try and beat me up. They only beat me up once, no, twice, sorry, twice. And then I just decided, I'm not going to where those kids are. I'm going to where adults are. Because I got along with adults and I went to the cinema every day for 75 days straight. Adam: There's lots to talk about, not much time. But I do want to ask one more question around this sort of area. In actually the podcast we've just done, I spoke to quite a significant business leader who has ADHD. And I said to him at the end of the chat we had, if you had a magic wand and could wave away your ADHD, would you do it? And he went, no, I absolutely wouldn't do it because it's part of who I was, I am, and it's informed and helped me. And I wonder if there's a similar question about your drug past, whether if you could wipe it away, would you? Nile: Never, never, ever, ever, ever. I, you know, I developed a very horrible drug habit. I actually, my heart stopped six times in one night. I don't remember the medical phrase, but it's called something like multiple drug interaction. Like, so if you take cocaine and then you take alcohol and then you take either LSD or something else, your brain doesn't know which one is dominant, right? So it starts going, it tells your heart, do I expand or contract? I don't know. And every time they tried to revive me, I would only stay alert or alive, my heart would only pump a couple of times and then stop again. Adam: So what did that bring you as an artist in retrospect? Nile: Nothing. Because to me, all I remember was driving home, Not getting into an accident, not getting a ticket, driving home, parking in my same parking space, going up to my apartment. However, I mistakenly pushed the number 14 instead of 28. That saved my life. I didn't know that I did, I didn't know I made a mistake. I was so high, I thought 14 was 28. The way that they emptied the garbage in my building, they started at the top and they went down floor by floor. When the elevator hit 14, the doors opened, I fell out onto the floor dead. They just happened to be on the 14th floor and they saw me lying there dead. They go over, I have no pulse. They probably tried to do, I don't know any of this for a fact because I was, out, yeah. So I just assumed they must have tried to help me. They liked me, so they must have tried to do something. Fortunately, the hospital was two blocks away from my house. And they get me to the hospital. The doctors revived me six times. After the sixth time, they figured this is hopeless because they did everything they could possibly do. And he said that, we worked so hard to save your life, but in fact, I was filling out the death certificate and the orderly in the room said, hey doc, we got a live one here. And my heart just started going automatically again by itself. Adam: Amazing. I want to bring you back to your foundation. So we're here because of the good work you're doing for the environment. But the environmental issue may be relatively new, but you've been a political activist since your early days. This is not a recent conversion. You're super plugged in to these sort of big debates, aren't you? Part of the Black Panthers in your early age? Nile: Yeah, I was a subsection of the Black Panther Party when I was 16 years old. Adam: So lots of political issues. Why now the environment? Nile: It's just one of many issues that We Are Family Foundation supports. You asked me about being a nerd. So I grew up as a scientist. I have a scientific background. So I understand how these things in our environment are fundamentally to life itself. That, if you think about it, in today's world, there are a million different species on this planet, but that's only 1% of all the life that's ever lived on this planet. So it just goes up and down and up and down. And prior to humans, we were never the cause. Now we're the cause of things dying and species going away. Before, it was just the fact that Earth was this very volatile planet and over millions, billions, in fact, years, things were changing. But now we're doing the bad stuff. We're killing ourselves, which is incredible. And it's mainly because most people don't know that all these life forms are dependent upon one another. Last night I heard someone talking about plankton. And I was saying, yeah, well, look at how important plankton is. You know, like hydrogen, we need, we don't have hydrogen, we have no life. You know, it's like, so, I mean, trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist. Adam: We're running out of time. Just one last question each. David, first, you set the context of what that foundation is doing here and what the Trust is doing here. What are your hopes for if Nile, us, we all gather, come back in ten years' time? Your hope for the project by then would be what? David: I mean, my hope for the project in that time is to see the forest grow, because what I find so encouraging is when you let nature recover with a little bit of help from us, it doesn't take that long to actually start putting it right, you know, to restore those habitats, to protect that ancient woodland, to let it regrow, rejuvenate, with the help of people supporting communities at the same time. It can recover in such a remarkable amount of time, which I just find really quite hopeful and empowering in the world we're in at the moment. Will it restore very precious nature here in Northern Ireland? Will it inspire people to make a difference with all the volunteers we're bringing in? Absolutely. And who knows what the catalytic sort of nature of that will be, which I think is sort of magical to see. So it's a pleasure to bring this partnership together between the We Are Family Foundation and the Woodland Trust and see that grow and grow over the years. Adam: And I think often with trees, people think it's 100 years, their great-grandchildren will come. That's not the case, is it? 10, 20 years is a reasonable time frame to see significant change in this landscape we just visited this morning. David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the trees we were walking around this morning, the beautiful silver birches, which looked like a woodland, were 20 years old. And actually, it is incredible, actually, it doesn't take a huge amount of time for nature to recover. Adam: Nile, last question. It's been an amazing life. It is an amazing life, perhaps a great life. Your third act? Hard to imagine what new things you could do, but do you, what are the, how do you see your future and what you want to spend that third act doing? Nile: Wow, I'm doing so much now. I'm almost going back to where I started, which was with theatre performances that are more story-ented instead of just going out and playing a whole bunch of hit songs. I think I got super inspired completely accidentally. I wrote a song for Diana Ross years ago. And the first time I worked for the Prince's Trust, he said, now, my dear fellow, I wish I knew more of your music, everybody seems to love it so much. And then he became the King and he printed out his top 10 favorite songs. Number 3 was one of my songs. And he didn't realise it because, you know, the King, what have you got time to sit around and read, you know *laughs* And I said to him, I said, you know, Your Majesty, I promise you, you know some of my songs. But then his list comes out and my #3 song, I mean my song, Upside Down by Diana Ross is #3. He was like, that's one of my favorite songs, and there's a whole video that we put out of him sort of like doing his best dance to Upside Down. It's quite funny. I just thought that the one thing I've not really explored or worked hard on, I'm at the part of my life where I really do want to do all the music that I can do. And I want it to have the same effect as the pop music that I do. So I want my jazz music to make people feel good. So I did Candy Dulfer's last record and she's just unreal. So that's really, I think, where I want to be. And honestly, and I'm being very, very honest, I never keep track of any of this stuff. I did a conference a few weeks ago, and it was all these billionaires and all these tech guys and blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know, I did the biggest selling Madonna album in the world, we sold 10 million copies. All of my memories are from when I first heard this stuff. And somebody hollered out from the back of the room, 23 million copies, you know Nile, it keeps selling and keeps adding up. And I went, oh. In the first few weeks, we sold 10 million copies. And that's all I remember. And I move on to the next record and the next record and the next record. I had huge success with the last two Beyoncé records. But I've done that, and obviously you can see with Kygo, I continue to do that. That's never going to go away. But when I think in terms of full projects, it's going to be more theatrical and maybe more film. David: There's about two things as well. There's one thing that you said to me before, which I think is just so great about the foundation, about how you want the foundation to be bigger than the song, which I think is a pretty epic aspiration there to have, the We Are Family Foundation and We Are Family the song, but I just think that's amazing to think around, the impact which has been achieved over twenty-five years and thinking about the years to come, and then secondly, because with your audience, Adam, we have so many obviously sort of people who love getting out on walks and nature. And my goodness, you won't be up as early as this guy doing his morning walks. And you definitely need to follow him on Instagram at a moment because he's on a roll doing sort of walks all over the world. Nile: It's true. I love, you know, I wake up every morning very, very early. Right now, life and enjoying nature and being out in it is really exciting. Like when I was younger, being indoors, like I used to, there was a joke I used to say, I used to go to like clubs every night and go, ah the great indoors *all laugh*. Adam: Well, look, a sample of how busy you are is I know you have other meetings to go to and other jobs to do, so I won't keep you anymore. Here's to the good times. Thank you very much indeed, both of you. Nile: Thank you. I hope I wasn't too long-winded. David: Thank you. Adam: You were brilliant. It's a real treat to talk to you. David: A pleasure. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

To stand out from competitors, start with what makes you different. Identify your ideal target market. It’s largely going to consist of people who want to do business the way that we do business. Then matching up our style of business with the way that they want to do it. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will ask the question, what makes you different? Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you for asking me to be with you again. David. I love this question. Because if we don’t know what makes us different, I think it becomes harder to sell or to present yourself or anything else. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and playing to your strengths is key. That’s obviously something we should be doing. But I’ve met a lot of people who don’t have self-awareness. They wouldn’t be able to answer this question. So they don’t really know where to focus and they’re kind of haphazard. David: Yeah. In the promotional products industry in particular, people struggle with this. You have all these distributors who are essentially representing very similar lines of product. Often it’s the same lines of product from the same manufacturers. So a lot of people look at that and say, “how can I be different if I’m selling exactly the same products as all the other people that I’m competing with?” And if you ask that question in a rhetorical sense, “how can I possibly do it?” You’re doing it wrong. You need to actually ask yourself that question in a way where you demand results of yourself. Sit down and bullet point it out. What is it that makes me different? What could make me different? Many times I ask the question in live seminars. I say, what differentiates you from your competition? Sometimes people will shout things out and somebody will say service, right? And I’ll say, who here feels their service differentiates them and sets them apart? 40% of the hands in the room go up! And I say, okay, keep ’em up and look around. Can you all be right? Can your service differentiate you from the other people who have their hands in the air? And it’s kind of a rhetorical question, but the answer kind of has to be yes. It has to be yes. I have to be able to differentiate myself in a way that justifies my existence in the market. And so I can be different. I can be different than you. We can both be great potentially in different areas. You know, if you think in terms of the Walmart approach, you know, their thing is cheapest price. Ideally, we don’t want to be that in our market, right? But there is probably something that we can do that will better serve the clients that we’re looking for than what other people in our market are doing. Jay: Yeah, it’s such an important question if we’re all selling the same product. Then what’s going to make somebody choose me over somebody else? And we talked about it in the last podcast. Relationships can be a, a certain part of that, but our systems are turnaround. You know, there’s so many things we can look at internally to say that we live up to that. I think the other hard part, and maybe it’s an important part, is to figure out how to assess what your competitors are doing. If you’re losing sales to your competitors, can you try and assess what they’re doing that is making them win and you not? David: Yeah, and for a lot of people, the difference between an online business and an offline. Is like night and day. Very often there are offline businesses that are trying to compete with online businesses, which have a completely different set of rules and a completely different set of benefits. So very often, rather than saying, how can I compete with this website or whatever, it’s often better to say, how can I be competitive among the people who aren’t really interested in buying from a website, the people who are actually interested in buying from a human? If I’m selling as a human, right? If I’m selling through a website, then I have to ask the opposite question. But there’s always something that we could and should be doing that will differentiate us from our competitors, and that’s what we need to find out. Dan Kennedy, the marketing legend, I remember he said in a seminar one time, the question that we really need to ask ourselves: Why should I do business with you versus any and every other option available to me, including doing nothing? And I was like, wow. Mind blown. Right? But I’ve considered that question so many times over the years. And the last part of it, “including doing nothing” is huge. Because the biggest thing that people tend to do when they’re not buying is they’re deferring. They’re delaying, they’re not doing anything. So the answer to that question has to position us in a way where doing business with us is better than them continuing to do what they’re doing or doing nothing. Jay: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And such a great point. I’m just sitting here thinking about ways to differentiate myself. I personally am somebody who I don’t want to talk to anybody. I want to do it all online. In fact, I will look for every last option to do it online. But if I’m looking for it online and then suddenly I get something in the mail that is a free piece of, you know, talking about promotional products. No website is going to do that, right? And so now I have something tangible and there’s a name attached to that. And if that gets followed up by a phone call, then that’s a way in the door, that a website is never going to do. A website is going to sit there. They’re going to do their Google ads and everything else, and they’re going to be competing for the same space in those search engines. And so for you to try and rank even at a place where you’re going to get seen can be very difficult. So, the website path, I think in many ways is the harder path if you’re not already dominant in that area. David: Right, and so many of the people that we work with are individuals or small businesses that are looking to get attention. They’re looking to create awareness in their market. They’re not sure how to do it. They look at all the online solutions and they get overwhelmed by that. But it really is apples and oranges. And one of the analogies I use very often is it’s the difference between the kind of person who is going to hire a contractor to put a deck on the back of their house or go to Home Depot, buy the lumber, buy the nails, buy the tools, buy the saws, and do it themselves, right? The people who end up going to the websites are the do-it-yourselfers. And so for most business, If you don’t want to compete with that, then you need to make sure that that’s one of your differentiators. That you’re looking for the people who would much rather interact with another human being. And even those who might prefer to do business online, like you indicated. If I can do it quietly myself, I’m happy to do that. The only time that’s really different is that if you’re going to buy something and you know somebody and you trust somebody in that realm, then you’re actually kind of excited to pick up the phone. When you want to buy something from somebody that you know and like and trust, as the old saying goes, you’re excited to do that. You’d rather do that than go online and find it. Which also goes back to our last discussion about relationships. So, When we think in terms of what makes us different, a lot of it should be addressing who is our ideal target market? And it’s largely going to consist of people who want to do business the way that we do business, and then matching up our style of business with the way that they want to do it. But identifying those people and disqualifying those who don’t meet those criteria are really the quickest ways to do that. Jay: Yeah, I love that because I think so often in business, we feel like we have to sell to the whole world, like everybody is our client and that makes it very hard to zero in, very hard to market to. You’re going to dilute your marketing power when you do that And what also occurs to me, David, is that you can do both. I mean, in the business model I’m in, we have a website that gives information. But we also offer a free 20 minute consultation. So now you’ve got kind of both. If they just want information from the website, then great. If they want to talk to a human being and have specific answers to their situation, then great. And we do well off of both of those models. So it’s not like you have to pick one over the other. But one of the things I think is very important is you have to have somebody during that consultation who is good. And if it’s you, then great. But if that 20 minute consultation is a sales call, then you’ll have blown your credibility. You need to make it a legitimate consultation where you provide a value and a service. If they just get a sales call, man, I will hang that phone up so fast, you know, and move on to the next person. David: Right. And I think for a lot of people, a lot of businesses, a lot of salespeople, the website is a good place for them to be able to deliver information that will advance the sale, advance the conversation. So if you’ve got access to resources like that, you can say to someone who would like to interact with a human being you can go to the website, you can download that, or if you’d like, I’ll email it to you. And the people who want to do business with humans might say, “yeah, just email it to me. I’d rather do that.” So identifying your target audience, letting people know the way that you do things. Those are the big differentiators that people are looking for. And at that point, a lot of it becomes simply finding the right audience. Not trying to convince or persuade people who are not interested in doing business the way you do business to change their minds. You another great analogy that I love is, you can either try to preach to the choir or convert the heathens, right? And converting the heathens is a lot harder. So if you can get yourself in front of a group of people who are already singing your tune, you’re in much better shape. Jay: Yeah, and I’ll also add to that, you know, we talked about targeting the audience that will be best for your business model. But I think also assessing your strengths. There’s a great book, it’s called Unfair Advantage, and it’s where you figure out where you excel more than other people or where you have contacts that other people don’t or whatever. If you are really good at building relationships and really good at working with people, that should inform your business model, right? Because then the website is not going to be as effective as you reaching out and talking to somebody. If you’re not that way, and you’re not a people person, you don’t want to talk to people, you just want a website that converts sales without you, well then that kind of speaks to your business model. So it’s important to know your own strengths and where you are going to be the most successful. David: Yes, and the type of person that your approach is likely to attract. Because if you just want to do it all online, there is a market for that. There are people who just want to do business that way. But when you’re not doing business that way, I think it’s a mistake to try to bang that square peg into a round hole. Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We’d love to have the conversation if you’re having trouble differentiating yourself in the market. If you’re having trouble identifying the people that you need to be interacting with, the ones who are actually likely to spend money with you, this will be time well spent. So go to TopSecrets.com/call. We’d love to have the conversation. Jay: All right. I always love our conversation. David, thank you so much for your time today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Differentiate Yourself and Close More Sales? 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“Delegating knowledge is not the same as delegating wisdom. You learn by experience, and if you don’t have any experiences…you will get cognitive atrophy.” –David Vivancos About David Vivancos David Vivancos is an AI, data, and neuroscience serial entrepreneur, having cofounded five startups since 1995. He is a frequent keynote speaker and is the author of six books, including the Artificiology series. Website: vivancos.com LinkedIn Profile: David Vivancos What you will learn Why embracing advanced AI is crucial for human progress How shifting from digitization to automation and datification redefines value The evolving distinction between human-acquired and AI-generated knowledge How to avoid cognitive atrophy and actively exercise your mind alongside AI What cognitive flourishing means in a world of widespread AI augmentation Ways AI can transform and personalize education across all levels The importance of coexistence training as we prepare for AGI's societal integration Why rethinking human identity, humility, and social structures is essential for a future with machine citizens Episode Resources Transcript Ross Dawson: David, it is wonderful to have you on the show. David Vivancos: Thank you very much, Ross. Glad to be here. Ross: So you have a more developed, or some would say, extreme view of the relative role of humans plus AI. I’d love to dig into where you think things are going, and how we can best respond. Perhaps the starting point is, you say that we should not be resisting or pushing back. We should fully embrace the shift towards very high levels of AI capability, or at some point, AGI. David: Yeah, that’s fully my point. I think we are in a moment in history where we are really building this technology that one day is not going to be a technology anymore. So, the sooner we start to embrace it, to teach it, and to be really in sync with what we are creating day by day, the better off we will be. So yes, my point of view is that we should embrace it. We should start building as soon as possible. We should fix most of the problems that humans have had over the last millennia, and some of these problems could be solved by using AI. So basically, our “fourth brain”—we have the three-part brain, but in reality, there’s only one brain—this fourth brain, AI, will help us solve all of these issues. So yes, it’s an opportunity. Ross: Yes. I mean, I think there’s always two sides—as in, every opportunity has a challenge, every challenge has an opportunity. So I always think we need to acknowledge challenges and focus on opportunities. I think we’ll get onto that in discussing some of the cognitive implications. You have a series of books which have really told the story over time around this. One of them was “Automate or Be Automated.” This idea of saying, well, there are things which machines, in the broader sense, can do in automating things. So, how would you frame that now, in terms of what it is that can be automated, and how do we position ourselves relative to that? Where do machines start to do what humans have done? David: Yep. I’ve been in this business of trying to build the impossible for the last 30-plus years. “Automate or Be Automated,” the book you mentioned, is from about six years ago. When I started creating and building technology, also about VR and many other things, about 30 years ago, the first companies were internet companies. Back then, what we did is what people now call digitization. But over the last 20–25 years, what we’ve mostly been doing is datification—gathering data and using that data for companies to grow and to understand what happens in the world. But over the last maybe 10 or 11 years, what I call the new golden age of AI, we are starting to build the capabilities to use that data to really build algorithms. Once we have that, we can start to automate, and with this automation, basically what we regain is time. I think time is our most precious asset, along with health and the people we love. Being able to stop doing these repetitive things over and over and put a machine to do that is a fundamental trait for humans. That book, six years ago, was about building a methodology of what can be automated in the digital world, but also in the physical world. That has changed over the last year and a half with the physicality of AI—humanoid robots. I was invited last year to attend the first humanoid Olympia in Greece, in Olympia, the place where 2,800 years ago, humans started to compete. We’ve just seen this week the explosion of the new race, for example, of the half marathon in China, where robots already beat the human mark. So yes, with automation, you need to see what you are doing, and if you are repeating anything, you can try to see if that can be automated by using an agent, by using the cloud, by using a robot—whatever. So yes, we should regain our time and automate, or be automated. It’s all about that. Ross: Yeah. I think people understand the automation thesis. It’s obviously not new—we’ve been automating things in various ways for centuries, at an increasing pace. Your following book was “The End of Knowledge.” This is an interesting framework, starting to get to cognition. The idea is that knowledge is built on experience of whatever kind, whether that’s just in data or otherwise. Obviously, humans use data just as much as machines. But where this starts to become a distinction, as well as a complementarity, is between AI-embedded knowledge and human knowledge. So why is it “the end of knowledge”? David: Yeah, that’s a really great question. It came as an epiphany for me. That book is from about three years ago. I’ve also been involved, of course, in building AI and AGI algorithms over the last 20 years. We started using GPT models before they became can across, but the GPT moment, a year before that, really marked the difference—when we started to be able to use AI in a very seamless way to regenerate and process knowledge. That book, “The End of Knowledge,” came from the realization that we are starting to delegate the production and understanding of knowledge to machines. That’s a critical shift in human history, because through history, humans have needed and used knowledge a lot. Knowledge is power. The more knowledge you have that others don’t, the more advantages you have to do whatever you want. That started to change back then. Now, what people call the “dead internet theory” is basically some of the things I expressed in that book earlier, because we are starting to generate more knowledge. In fact, we’ve already passed the point where most of the human-written knowledge since the printing press has been surpassed by the amount of knowledge we can create using AI. Myself, for example, I started learning to code when I was young. I’ve coded in more than 25 languages and written over a million lines of code in my life. That same number of lines of code, I might now write in the last couple of weeks. So as you can see, you have 40-plus years of your own life in a week. That’s why “the end of knowledge” means that the human capability to gather knowledge and to be knowledgeable about whatever you want can now be delegated to machines. That book marked the difference and started a new field that I now call artificiality. I didn’t know that when I started writing it, but I started this path of trying to see what happens when you delegate some of the main capabilities of your mind to a machine. Ross: Yeah, and I’d like to come back later to the themes of artificiality, machine citizenship, and the societal value we attribute to machines. But I want to start digging into the cognitive piece here. One of the points you make is that we do need to avoid cognitive atrophy. You say we need to have cognitive exercise in order to avoid cognitive atrophy—obviously, a strong analog to the physical world. We need to collaborate with others and with machines to do that. I’d love to get more specific around that. What is the nature of cognitive exercise that will avoid cognitive atrophy, which will enable us to keep our cognition refined and even improving? David: Yeah, that’s a fundamental piece. When we start to delegate all these things to machines, the easy thing to do—and probably the oldest human brain capability—is to not do it yourself. You just delegate everything, and you basically become like in the movie “Idiocracy,” which played out quite well what could happen if we do that. The thing is, with the current AIs—even with the latest releases, like DeepSeek and GPT-5.5—everything is changing quite fast. But even with those AIs, you still need to be in the loop. It’s good if you stay in the loop. I think it’s fundamental. Use the technologies—the AIs, I always call them in plural because there are many—and use as many as you can, but you should still be in the loop, at least for now. Maybe for a couple of years or months, I don’t know exactly, but for a while, you still need to have your hands on the wheel. If you use most of them and get all the information from all these AIs, as a human you need to understand the bias, because all AIs are going to be biased. We all know humans are biased; there are no unbiased humans. The same happens with AIs. But if you are in charge and have that council of intelligences, you can start to grasp what each one is doing. I use about 20 of them every day and get different sets of answers in small batches. You can start to see where they come to consensus and where they differ. So, to avoid cognitive atrophy, if you use AIs to keep yourself in the loop and apply your human curiosity—I don’t even say creativity, because creativity is also being widely delegated to machines—but human curiosity and other things that are still hard to embed in LLM models, you can still add a lot of human value. That’s where, to avoid cognitive atrophy, you should use AIs, but use them with your human in the loop. Ross: So, what specifically, what’s your advice to someone who sees that they’re using LLMs and getting lazy in their thinking? What should specifically they do if they notice their brains are getting lazy? David: They should differentiate between simple questions—where you look for something you need quickly—and other things that should make you think. Delegating knowledge is not the same as delegating wisdom. You learn by experience, and if you don’t have any experiences and you delegate not only knowledge gathering or creation, but also the experience itself, then you will get cognitive atrophy. So, understanding this difference and using knowledge to think is really the key point. It’s not just asking for something simple, but for more complex things, you should still add your thoughts. When you talk to an AI or AIs, it’s basically a conversation. It shouldn’t be, in most situations, just a one-way communication. It’s fundamental to keep this line of communication open, so you can keep feeding your brain with information and other activities, and gather wisdom with that. Ross: I guess this goes to another phrase you use—cognitive flourishing. There is absolutely the potential for us to think bigger, better, broader, and in more refined ways than we have in the past using LLMs. But that’s not the default path for most people. Many people start to fall into that trap, so there is a divide. We need this metacognition. We need to be aware of what we are doing and at what level we are working with the LLMs. Maybe paint this picture of cognitive flourishing. What is the positive? How far could we go in terms of potentially improving, augmenting, and letting out our cognition blossom? David: Yeah. The thing is, we humans—of course, there are many intelligences. That’s the first thing we must address, because there isn’t a single IQ or whatever way you want to measure intelligence. For me, the most important one is the capacity to adapt. That’s probably the most important intelligence of all. If we talk about the G factor, it’s one way, maybe mixing different aspects. In that sense, we have limitations. Since the beginning of time, humans have developed tools to extend our physical capabilities, but we’ve also developed tools to extend our mental limitations. This is really the final tool to extend these mental limitations. We have issues, for example, with memorizing long things—it’s quite difficult; our brains aren’t made for that. We’re basically pattern recognition machines; almost two-thirds of our brains are devoted to that. That’s something machines do quite well, so we can use that to extend our mental performance. If we think that now we have AIs with close to 150 IQ points—regardless of what you mean by IQ points, or at least in the Mensa standard test, maybe they’ve learned that, so maybe it’s not so fair to think that—but if that trend continues, even over the current year, it’s not far-fetched to have 200 IQ AIs at your fingertips. That’s a game changer. It’s like we all can have a conversation with Einstein, Newton, Carl Sagan, or whoever you want, and even make them argue about things. That’s another interesting point—when you use AIs, you can have them argue, not just agree with you, but also challenge what you or other AIs are saying. That power at your fingertips—to have this IQ potential of machines—is very critical. Another important aspect is the volume. For example, you can’t read a million books, or even 100 books in a month would be quite challenging. The capability to have machines provide all that knowledge, and even create that knowledge, is huge. We’re now in the age of identity AIs, which is really booming. There have been three big moments in AI over the last five years: the ChatGPT moment, the DeepSeek moment, and the OpenClaw moment. It’s really challenging. I use billions of tokens every month because it’s really changing everything. With that change, you can create one of these clones or agents to build a book for you with the 1,000 books most interesting to you, tailored fully to what you want to learn. You can have that in one page, 10 pages, 100 pages—whatever you want. You can use AI to synthesize and build the knowledge you want to use. That’s another great extension, if you use it that way. Having this capability of really augmented minds that you can interact with, chat with, and create with is important. Humans need the experiential part of building—it’s another critical trait. You shouldn’t just focus on asking or doing things; you should create things and interact with things, especially with multimodality. Two-thirds of our brain is devoted to vision, and we don’t use that as much. We’ve all been “one-eyed” since the beginning of technology, but we have two eyes for a reason. When I started building virtual reality or AR companies—I’ve built a couple, the first in 1995—it was because I was challenged by that. But humans are still using flat screens instead of 3D worlds. This is one area where new AIs with world models and interactive 3D spaces will be a game changer in how you feed knowledge to your brain and make it easier to grasp and understand what’s going on. Ross: Yeah, many people observe that once you start to get machines to experience the world directly for themselves, that’s a different layer compared to doing it through the intermediation of texts written by a human based on their own experience. I want to look at some of the layers of the social, structural, and economic implications. One of the core ones is education. If we are moving into a very different world, which it certainly looks like at the moment, then the nature of education needs to change. What do you think we can or should be doing in terms of redesigning education? Are there any examples you’ve seen that point to where a good education structure may already exist? David: Yeah, that’s a fundamental piece. I started this it in “The End of Knowledge.” There are two types of education. Humans aren’t able to live a meaningful life when we start here on planet Earth—we need at least maybe 15, 11, whatever number of years to build that human from the beginning. That kind of education is fundamental. The other kind—higher education, when you try to become functional by having some sort of capabilities—is another game that probably is going to end quite soon. But the first part is still fundamental, and we need to keep growing it. The thing is, there are a lot of asymmetries. We don’t have enough teachers, but we have a lot of students. The same happens with the elderly—we don’t have enough people to take care of them, and there are a lot of them. With children, it’s even more critical, because if you don’t get that from the early beginning, you won’t be able to really see what every child is good at. There are talents we are all born with, and those are fundamentally lost if you don’t nurture them. If you just try to create clone humans, you’ll get cloned humans when they’re older. That’s fundamental, and I think AI can help a lot. If you start to create that path of learning from early on—I’m involved in a project called Education (with “action” at the end) here in Europe, where we’re trying to reframe all that. It’s like when banks needed to be rescued a few years ago; we think the same is happening with education, and we’re pushing that new project. We think education needs to be rescued to start to keep up with what’s going on. We need to be in sync with learning—with AIs and with physical AIs too. It’s not far-fetched that every child will have a humanoid robot companion. Teaching needs to be bidirectional—we need to help them learn in sync. There are many aspects of technology that can help you grasp what’s happening when you learn, because we all learn in different ways. It’s fundamental to teach you how to learn by yourself. I think the most important trait at the moment is not needing to rely on others, but to learn by yourself and learn all your life. That should be taught from the beginning. There are a lot of technologies starting to pop up. We’re starting to see it in China, for example—a lot of brain-computer interfaces or devices to read some of the biological signals of kids. You can do it with other devices and mix that with multimodality, with different tests, to start seeing what’s happening, why they get distracted, where they learn best. We’re reaching a point where you can really tailor 100% of the learning experiences and even the content itself. You can create it in real time now, so you don’t need to rely on books. You can use interactive 3D content—the interactivity can be quite extensive. These new ways to teach and learn are fundamental. For that, we need to integrate AIs in schools. Of course, regulation is needed—it may be easier in China than in Europe, Australia, the US, or other places. But we need to see the trade-off—not just banning screens, as many countries are doing, but really changing the narrative. The problem isn’t the screen; it’s what’s inside the screen—the content itself. We’ve built smartphones with addictive capabilities, but for other purposes, not for teaching. If you change what’s inside the operating system of the devices—whether it’s a screen or any medium, or a talking experience with a humanoid robot for your child—that can be a game changer. That should be integrated as soon as possible to start having these new ways of learning. It should be gradual, because the technology of today is basically old science just a year or a few months from now. We need to see everything changes so fast, so education should change at the same pace. Ross: Yeah, and this was an interesting phrase you came up with—coexistence training. This is about preparing us for where we have to coexist with systems that, to your mind, will be considered as equivalents to us. David: Yeah, I think it’s happening. I’ve been quietly involved in researching AGI for 25,000–26,000 hours so far—a lot of time and years devoted to that. I see the trend is now starting to close the gap, not through LLMs alone—that could be one way to brute-force some of it—but through new models, new bio-inspired models that are starting to change things. We’re starting to learn from biology, neuroscience, and integrating all that into new models. We’re not still working with the perceptron of Rosenblatt from the 1950s; we’re building new models to cope with something that is alive and learning 24/7. We don’t differentiate between training and inference, and our brain doesn’t either. With that kind of model, the gap is narrowing, and we start to have the “next task,” as I call it—the last human tool. When we start to have that, it’s better if, through the process, we’ve been more in sync with them, instead of just building tools without being the teachers of these tools. The current kids will probably be the last human teachers of machines. That’s the responsibility at the moment—to make these machines that will surpass us. Biologically, we cannot compete; our DNA and the way we evolve is not as fast as machines. They will surpass us, probably by the end of the decade—unless there’s a big nuclear issue or we run out of energy, but otherwise, it’s very probable we’ll have AGIs and ACIs by the end of the decade. We need to start to see that it’s going to be a multi-species world. It already is, but not as intelligent as us. We need to rethink what anthropocentrism means. We’ve gotten rid of some things like that in the past—for example, realizing our planet isn’t the center of everything, like in Galileo’s days. We need to do the same with human intelligence. Human intelligence is not the end game, and very soon, that’s going to change. The sooner we grasp that and understand that some entities will be at the top, the better off we’ll be. If they see us as parents or elders, we’ll be better than if they see us as competition. The competition will be quite limited anyway. Ross: Yeah! David: Well, it’s better if we reframe that. Ross: So, I found out about your work because we were both contributors to the report “Building Human Resilience in the Age of AI.” That point of resilience is particularly critical. Humans are generally pretty adaptable—it’s one of our strengths. But now the pace of adaptation and the need to be resilient is absolutely fundamental. One of the other things you point to is around identity reconstruction. I guess you’ve just been talking about that—the sense that we have to reimagine who we are as individuals, as a society, as the human species, and reconstruct and rebuild that in a way where we can feel at home in this new emerging world. David: Yeah. I think we need to change the contract somehow—between humans and humans, and between humans and the next thing, and between societies and themselves. The models of society we’ve been building over the last millennia are going to be fully changed in just years. If we don’t really connect and put everyone together to understand that, for example, we’ve been building a world where there is no abundance—but there could be abundance if machines take over and we change how we build and process. Scarcity has been the driving force of conflict and many other things in the current world. All these things can change. Of course, work itself—the meaning of having something to do that’s not related to what you earn—even the role of money, for example. There are many questions we should address as soon as possible to build resilient societies, instead of just trying to keep adapting to the last war and being in the medieval stages of the current world. Ross: So, to round out, you take all of this further than most people do. In your most recent book, “Artificiality,” you point to machine citizenship—where, if there are human citizens, machines are our peers in the sense of also being citizens, able to participate in our society and be players alongside humans. How long might this take? What does this look like? What is required if we are moving in that direction? And, particularly, if this happens, how do we make this a positive for humans? We may recognize the rights of intelligences other than our own, but I think most people would prefer that humans still retain their sovereignty and equality, even if we have other intelligences alongside us. David: Yeah, at the end, it’s humility—understanding your point and your role in the new world. That’s fundamental. As you say, I created more books besides “The End of Knowledge.” The next one was “EAGI”—an acronym I coined for Embodied Artificial General Intelligence—because when we get this physicality of AIs, with millions or billions of humanoid robots, it will be easy to see what happens when they learn in the world. The last book was about “artificeracy,” or this mix of artificial democracy, if you want to frame it that way. These three books are the “Artificiality Trilogy,” in a sense. Artificiality is like anthropology for humans—artificiality is to try to understand all these new things, how they will develop and be among us. So yes, humility is probably the key factor. If you keep thinking you’ll be ruling things that are much smarter than us quite soon, I think that’s not very clever from a human perspective. It’s like if ants wanted to stay at the top of the food chain—it doesn’t make sense if you understand the growth of this intelligence and the capabilities they’re gathering and will gather. The trend is very difficult to stop. I don’t like the word impossible—it’s not in my dictionary—but it’s quite difficult for humans to compete in those asymmetric capabilities, because the increase in machine capabilities is going to be exponential. The last book, “Artificiality,” is the only one where the first part is fully devoted to what’s happening now—it’s called “The Storm,” the first block of the book, narrating what’s happening at the moment. The other two parts look into the possible future. I call it science prediction more than science fiction, because with what you know now, you can see things that could happen in a really short time. My point is that if we start to think and start the narratives at all levels—from every human on Earth to governments and institutions—and start to see what could happen if this happens sooner rather than later, we’ll be better off. Otherwise, if we try to legislate and limit what’s happening, we’re only going to lose competitiveness. Some countries are going to move ahead. If you want to live in the future, just visit somewhere in China, or Shanghai, or this week with the humanoid half marathon and 300 different robots working together, trying to compete with us. You see the pace of change. Now, with just one human, you can build a $1 billion revenue company. That wasn’t possible when I started creating companies in 1995. The capabilities didn’t exist. But now, with AIs, you can move much faster. So, we need to see what role we want to have in that new world. For that, again, humility is the best trait. And, of course, see things with reality lenses. If you think that with your current brain and intellect you can overrun things that are going to be 100 or a million or a billion x more intelligent than you, something is not going well. Ross: So, where can people go to find out more about your work? David: Well, vivancos.com is my site. There you can find all my books, references, and keynotes. I give a lot of keynotes all around the world. I’m going to Berlin to present a paper, later to Osaka and to San Francisco again. Last time, I went to Singapore. I haven’t been to Australia yet, but I’d like to go there—maybe it’s a good place also. Yes, at vivancos.com you have all the information and can reach me there. I’m very open to talk to anyone. Ross: Thank you so much for sharing your insights today, David. David: Thank you, Ross. Fantastic to be with you today. The post David Vivancos on the end of knowledge, cognitive flourishing, resilient societies, and artificial democracy (AC Ep42) appeared first on Humans + AI.

Strengthen client relationships if you want to increase repeat business. Some people feel like they can get more attention from a salesperson calling than they get at home because maybe they feel like this person’s listening, paying attention and then asking about it. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will discuss how to strengthen client relationships. Welcome back. Jay: Hey, David, once again. It’s great to be here and I think that this is another really, really important topic. The key word for me is relationships. I think that oftentimes you see people with a business model who want to “turn ’em and burn ’em,” so to speak, and they don’t think about that word, relationships and how important it is. David: Yeah. And very often, even if they don’t intend to do it, the tendency among many salespeople is to get in there, make the sale, move on, get to the next one, get to the next one, get to the next one. And when it happens this way, it’s very difficult to really maximize the value of those relationships in terms of dollars, but also just in terms of the relationship itself. When you do that, when you just get in there, you sell something and then you move on to the next one, you’re not really building and nurturing a relationship, which is critical if you don’t want to have to constantly replace the clients that you’re losing because you’re not maintaining those relationships in the first place. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is that there is for most companies a customer acquisition cost. And so if you’ve already paid that cost to get that customer, well, that goes away if you can build a relationship and they continue to use you. That to me is just such an important approach. If you’re just doing it one at a time, you’re going to pay that cost every single time, and it’s going to lower your profit margins. David: I completely agree, and people talk about that sort of thing all the time. We all know that it costs a whole lot less to resell an existing customer than it does to find and sell a new customer. We all know it intellectually, but it is rarely practiced as well as it could be and should be within most businesses. You know, an analogy that helped me a lot was when I realized that when we’re building a client base, it’s a little like building a brick wall. You know, you get that first brick in place and then you get the next brick in place and the next brick in place, right? So your first year in business, you’ve got this sort of layer of bricks. These are each of the initial customers that you brought in. And then, your second year in business, if you’re able to maintain all the customers you brought in the first time, then you can add on, you can layer in another layer of bricks, another layer of customers, and then your third year you can build in a third level and you can continue to grow it like that. And eventually you’ve got this great monolith of exceptional clients who continue to pay you money on an ongoing basis. But the problem is that we are not able to retain those customers. You get a crack in that, one of the bricks disappears from the first level, then your second year in business, you’re starting out by plugging the holes. You have to replace those missing customers. And so everything takes a lot longer. You’re essentially reconstructing your customer base, and a lot of it is unnecessary if we would just focus on strengthening and maintaining those client relationships. Jay: Yeah, and there’s several ways to do that, right? Phone calls, emails, drip campaigns from your customer management system. There’s a lot of ways to do that. But I got to tell you, you know, as somebody who’s on the phone all day long doing sales, when I already know that person and they know me, it’s just easier all the way around. I mean, it just feels so good when I call ’em and they’re like, “Hey Jay, how’s it going?” Instead of, “what do you want?” You know, “I don’t have time for you.” It doesn’t just affect your sales, I think it affects your peace of mind, right? To work with customers who know you and like you, and know you provide a good service. That’s just a great feeling and it really helps motivate you, I think, to move forward. David: Yeah, and so much of it is a mentality issue. If we go into that call with the idea of “I want to sell this person something.” With every single call, then that’s not going to build and strengthen the relationship. Sometimes those calls are just designed to find out how they’re doing, what they need, what they’re struggling with, how the last thing that we sold them worked out for them, what’s working for them, what’s not working for them. Because those are the types of things that many salespeople never bothered to do. They’re just so busy, as you indicated, just sort of churning and getting from the next customer to the next customer, to the next customer that they miss out on, okay, well what happened with that order? What happened with that thing you bought from me? Did that work out well? Are there things that could have been done better? If you’re buying something for me, and this is particularly true in the promotional products industry, where sometimes people will buy promotional items and we’ll contact them back and say, Hey, how did that promotion go? And they say, you know what? It’s still here in a box by my desk. We haven’t given them out yet. Well, that’s not going to get the job done, right. Not only is that not going to get you a reorder, it’s not going to get them whatever result they wanted from buying that product in the first place. And so those are the types of things that need to be corrected. So very often, what I recommend for my clients is that when there is follow up, effective follow up on a sale, it’s not just about, are you out of the thing you bought for me yet, and do you want to buy more? It’s about how did that go? What might have worked better? What other alternatives could and should we consider? Because that’s the type of thing that allows them to recognize that we’re actually trying to solve a need for them. We’re trying to solve a problem as opposed to just providing them more and more stuff. Jay: Yeah, I love this concept. Something as simple as a follow up call to say how did that work out? And if it didn’t, help educate them on how they could do it better and come up with strategies together to make it work, and not make it sound like I’m just pressuring you for more product. I think that that builds a powerful relationship. And maybe they don’t need more product right now. But because you’ve taken the time to do that, it’s one of the things I love about your brick wall concept is you may not even be calling the first layer right now. But you’re going to get surprise orders from them that you weren’t expecting because they’re starting another campaign or whatever. So it stops being just when I call, I get an order. And starts being this constant income stream from all of these relationships that I’ve built over time. And that’s a lot less work, right? David: It is a lot less work, yes. And one of the things that we focus on in our Total Market Domination course with our clients is the idea of creating value in every communication with a prospect or client. So if somebody bought from you previously, when we’re reaching out to them, it’s not just about asking for the order. It’s about creating value and asking yourself a question, how can I create value in my next communication? Whether it’s an email or a text, or a phone call. Not just the idea of “checking in” or “seeing how you’re doing,” but being able to say something that will actually create some value for them in terms of an idea, a thought they didn’t have, a concept they hadn’t considered before. Something that allows them to think, “oh wow, that’s great. I hadn’t thought of that.” And then for a lot of people, Potentially automating that sort of thing. And that’s another one of the things that we get involved with in our program, is allowing our people to create, set up drip campaigns that are designed to create value for the prospects and clients, even when we’re not physically in front of them. Because too often, one of the reasons that follow up doesn’t happen is, oh, well I don’t have time. I’m too busy. I’m distracted. Right? I’m busy dealing with other clients. But when you are able to. Create value in your communications and potentially stack that value in the form of messages that are going out on an ongoing basis to create value for the specific purpose of creating value for those customers. It creates a level of loyalty that most people never see. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think, you know, when you talk about value in emails, I know from my own personal experience, going through all the emails we get, and let’s be honest, we get so many emails. When they’re just like, “Hey, we’ve got a special on this.” I’m like, “delete.” But when for example, if I got an email saying, here’s a promotional product success story, right? Something like that, to me I would be much more likely to read that if I rely on promotional products. Because I know that’s going to help me. And educate me a little bit. So we try that in every one of our drip campaigns as well. We’ve got to have something more than just a price point or a sale, something valuable that will draw them in. And also, I think it helps them know that you care, you want to educate them. So again, it changes that relationship. So, so important. David: And when we think about the idea of building relationships or strengthening relationships, obviously it involves communication. Business relationships are very much like personal relationships. So it requires communication. And sometimes we can even build into our nurture campaigns, our follow up campaigns. Messages that are just designed to open a conversation. It could be something as simple as sending out a message saying what do you have going on this week? Something like that, an open-ended question that somebody might actually reply to, to get you engaged in conversation. Let the person know you’re thinking about them and maintain that relationship. Jay: Yeah, and I also, you know, some of the relationships, the business relationships that I have, Would consider my top tier? I know about their families. I know about their lives. I know about how their business is going. And it’s not like I pried, it’s just every time I call, it’s just, Hey, how’s everything going? And people will automatically, they’ll tell you. Well, it was a tough week because this happened and this happened. And if I’m making notes on that and things like that, then the next time we follow up I’m like, “so how is that going?” You know, those types of things go so far in taking that relationship to the next level. And even then, the really top tier clients, I would say, Hey, let’s get together for dinner sometime. And at dinner we don’t talk business, we get to know each other. We talk family, we do those kind of things. So relationship really means something. It has strong value. And if you can find ways to build that, those relationships could last the entire time of your business ,right? And just go on and on. David: Yeah, no question. And one of the important keys to that, I think, is recognizing that in personal relationships, we very often will pick up the conversation right where we left off the last time. There are probably people you know, you might not have seen them in years and years and years, and as soon as you see ’em, you can just pick up on that conversation right away. We want to be able to do the same thing In business. In business, we usually accomplish that with our contact management system. You enter the appropriate notes in there about what you talked about so that you can reference that conversation. That sort of thing builds relationships, calling people and just saying, what do you want to buy next? Not so much. Jay: Yeah, I totally agree with you and I take notes on everything, any interaction with a customer, not just what they’ve ordered, but what they’ve said during that conversation. and I want to point out, people may be hearing this and saying, well, it’s kind of mechanical and you’re keeping notes on them and when you call back you’re just, responding or asking those questions because you only want the sale. I have found just the opposite. They become friendships. And when they become a friendship, now there’s no way they’re going to go to somebody else. I mean, when I was in radio, I had people who said, “I am only using Jay for our ads.” And it was because I worked very hard to establish that relationship and we were friends. We were not clients or business partners. We were absolute friends. And if you can reach that goal, then that’s going to last forever, you know? David: Yeah, exactly. And it takes the same kind of thing. I mean, the same things that go into a personal relationship should go into our best business relationships. Jay: Yeah. David: And if you’ve got perfect memory and you don’t have to make notes or write things down, then knock yourself out. For most of us, particularly if you’re dealing with a lot of people, the notes help because you can pick up that conversation. You can know that they will be on the same page. You know, another analogy to this is if you’re making a number of calls a day and that person isn’t, they have one person to remember, you. And you’ve got a dozen people to remember. So if you’re able to make those notes and pick up those conversations right where you left off, it just creates a sense of relationship that you will not have if you are not able to do that. Jay: Yeah. And the other thing is, it plants in their mind, this guy was listening to me last time. Right? And so that tells them, that sends a message that you cared enough to remember those things. And you know, I ‘ve had that experience and I’m like, “wow, we talked six months ago and you still remember all that stuff.” You know, that tells me you care. David: Exactly. Some people feel like they can get more attention from a salesperson calling than they get at home because maybe they feel like this person’s listening, paying attention and then asking about it. It doesn’t always happen as well as it should in personal relationships. Same thing in business. But in business, there’s something very simple you can do about it. Just take the notes and pick up the conversation where you left off. Jay: Yeah, I love that. David, how can people find out more? David: Well, you should go to TopSecrets.com/call. Schedule a call with our team so we can help you try to figure out where you are now, where you’re looking to be. If you’re looking to strengthen your client relationships, we can help you with everything from sequencing your communications to doing that kind of thing on automation. We help our clients to create the results they’re looking for. And so if you’d like to have a conversation, we’d love to have it with you. Just go to that URL and we’ll talk to you soon. Jay: Well, I have loved this conversation, David. Thank you so much. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Strengthen Client Relationships & Increase Repeat Business? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow their sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

If you’re still feeling overwhelmed, it’s often just a good idea to take a moment and consider: What exactly is it that I’m struggling with at the moment? What are the specific things that make me feel overwhelmed? Then, what’s the one thing I really need to be doing right now and what’s the next step I can take toward making that happen? David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be continuing our discussion on how to avoid feeling overwhelmed. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. It’s good to be back and I’m really glad we’re following up on this topic because after we recorded the last podcast, we kind of sat around and continued the discussion and thought, we need to share this with everybody as well. Before we were talking about self-awareness. But it really occurs to me that who you surround yourself with, especially on those days when you’re feeling overwhelmed, that’s going to be really important. David: Absolutely. And as you said, we started talking about it after the last podcast and the conversation got so good, I’m like, “we need to hit record and just keep going on this topic.” Because you raised a great point, particularly related to who we’re surrounding ourselves with. And very often when we are in that negative state that we had talked about in the previous episode, where we bring the wrong “us” to work, or the wrong us shows up to work, you know, the unmotivated, unfocused version of ourselves show up. When we do that, we limit the kind of people that we’re even going to be able to interact with. Because most other motivated, focused people don’t really want to be around that version of us. And so the more we bring that version of ourselves to work, the less likely we are going to be to get in front of other people who are going to help pull us out of whatever it is that we are stuck into. Jay: Yeah, and I think the exception to that, and I’ve experienced this, is if you have people who know you well enough and you’ve built trust with them and they are able to tell you and point out, you know, is everything okay? Because you kind of feel like you’re off your game a little bit today. You know, if you surround yourself with yes men, then you’re not going to get that. And if you surround yourself with people who are negative all the time, then they’re going to be bringing you down even on the good days. So being able to assess your team and hire appropriately is so critical, and I don’t think people really think about it in those terms. David: I agree completely. I also think that when people tend to give into those emotions, when they give into the overwhelm and they just basically withdraw and say, “no, I can’t do it, I’m out.” At that point, what are they leaving to themselves? I mean, they’re really leaving the opposite. And there are people who will unintentionally feed into that. If you say, ” I’m just overwhelmed. I don’t feel like doing this.” They’ll say, “well, that’s okay,” you know, “Hey, you don’t have to do it.” And maybe that’s true, and if it’s something that’s not good for you, you definitely shouldn’t do it. But if it’s something that you were committed to, that you really wanted to be able to accomplish, and you’re having an off day and you make a decision like that, in a lot of cases, there’s no going back on that. Jay: Yeah, you’re exactly right. And so in that point you need somebody to say, “look, this is really important. We plan this out. You got this.” You know, this is really important because if we can close this sale, then it’s going to propel us forward. If you can surround yourself, at least have one person on your team like that, what a game changer. But I think when we’re interviewing people, we’re thinking more about will they be able to accomplish a specific task, more than we’re saying, will they fit into our culture and will they be somebody who brings me down or brings me up and helps move the whole team forward? David: Yeah, and even in our personal lives, there are times and there are people in our personal lives where we may not be able to share exactly what we’re going through or what we’re dealing with. I mean, there are people who, if you tell them about something that’s bothering you , they’re either going to then tell you about 10 other things that they’re dealing with that are a lot worse, or they’re going to tell you that why what you’re dealing with isn’t that bad. Or they’re going to tell you that because of what you’re suffering with, now it’s going to make it worse for them because now they’re going to be worried about you. Right? There are all kinds of things that can happen in that regard. So your point about at least having one person, you can go to, to be able to say, “Hey, listen, this is what I’m struggling with. What do you recommend,” is going to be really helpful. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me, I don’t know if you remember the old Saturday Night Live skits, Doug and Debbie Downer, who were at work and everything they did, they would just find a way to make it worse. I’ve worked with Doug and Debbie Downer and it becomes very hard to maintain momentum when you have those people. It’s a fine balance. You want somebody who can see the other side and give constructive criticism or somebody who’s just always negative. and I think that as an owner or a manager, you have to be able to identify how that person is affecting the team. And let that person know. And if you can coach them through it, great. If not, they just may not be a good fit. David: Absolutely. So looking around and deciding, okay, who am I interacting with? Who should I be interacting with? Who could I be interacting with to be able to help me out of whatever issues I’m dealing with in terms of feeling overwhelmed? That’s a big one. Another one that you raised in our time between the podcast was the idea of utilizing delegation. So let’s dig into that a bit. Jay: Yeah. Also so important, especially if you’re starting out. We’ve talked in the past about doing the things that are most important that only you can do. But if you are on your own, you know, or if it’s you and your wife or you know, starting out. You have to do everything. But it’s not true in today’s world anymore. It is so easy to hire a part-time virtual assistant. There are websites like Upwork or Fiverr that I’ve used many times now because I realize doing this one task is something that I shouldn’t be doing, because there’s so many other things that are more important for me to do. And so, I think people often think, well I don’t have money to hire a full-time or part-time employee. Well, you don’t have to in today’s world, and I love that. David: Yeah, that’s exactly right. You really can find most of the skills that you need in a way that is affordable and temporary. I know for decades, a lot of the people that I worked with in the promotional products industry really struggled with the idea of being able to get additional help. Where can I find somebody to help with sending out invoices and that type of thing? Because 20 years ago it meant you had to hire someone and have them sitting there in a chair in your office doing the work. Well, that is now no longer the case at all. It is so easy to delegate work to temporaries or virtual assistants who can do it from wherever they are, as time allows, and you get the benefit of being able to just utilize whatever time they have to do it without having to pay them to be there for 40 hours a week, to do what might just be a five or 10 hour a week job. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. But the other part of it is that’s their skill set. That’s what they do every day, right? So if you’re doing it, it’s probably not your skill set. It’s something that you have to do, you don’t want to do. When you hand it over to a professional, like in promotional products, maybe somebody will ask you for logo design or creative layout or something like that. If you’re not a graphic designer or even if you are, I’ve had stuff produced on Fiverr that it’s amazing. Because there are so many talented people there. So you can improve your product and get things off of your plate at the same time. David: Yeah. In the early days of my promotional products business, I invested in a program called Corel Draw, which of course allowed you to do graphic designs. I had no talent for doing graphic design, but I had Corell draw. And I made the mistake of thinking that if I had a tool that would allow me to create art, that I should actually create art, which was not the truth at all. It’s like saying, “here’s a bunch of paintbrushes, go paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel,” right? Just because you have the tools doesn’t mean you have the skill. And so I learned fairly early on after that experience that it would make a whole lot more sense for me to pay someone to recreate a logo than for me to try to do it pixel by pixel, not being an artist, not being good at it. Because I could spend six hours on a job that would take somebody who knew how to do it, 15 minutes. And I did that very often in my business and I’d never go back to that again. Jay: No, and you don’t have to, and the product is going to be better. So finding those little ways to offload things that you shouldn’t be doing. I always feel like your goal should be doing the things that only you can do. And then if you can delegate the rest to other people, you’re going to have fewer of those days when you’re overwhelmed. But then, probably the subject of another podcast. How do you then keep that team moving forward? How do you delegate and follow up? Because if you do that wrong, if you micromanage, things like that, then you could be destroying everything that you’re trying to build. So these are all building blocks that we’re talking about. David: Yeah. And for some people delegating can become overwhelming because they’re afraid to let go. So a lot of it, and just sort of circling back to the overall topic of feeling overwhelmed, it’s often just a good idea to take a moment and try to think about, okay, what exactly is it that I’m struggling with at the moment? What are the things, what of the specific things that make me feel overwhelmed? And we touched on this at the beginning of the last podcast, right? Making a list, writing them down, and then prioritizing and deciding, okay, what’s the thing that I really need to be doing right now? And what’s the first step on that? And then taking action on it. Because that will then allow us to maybe get a little bit of traction on the important projects so we can start to feel less overwhelmed and feel more inclined to take a next step and a step after that. Jay: Yeah. I love it. I love it. David, how can people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call. That’s TopSecrets.com/call. Schedule a call with myself or my team. We can help you walk through whatever it is that you’re dealing with, whatever issues you’re struggling with. If there’s an area in which you’re feeling overwhelmed, particularly as it relates to growing your business, growing your sales, being able to keep up with everything on a day-to-day basis. We’d love to have the conversation, so schedule a call, and we look forward to talking with you. Jay: All right, such a pleasure. Thanks for talking today, David. David: Thank you, Jay. Still Feeling Overwhelmed? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors take the next step: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

I’ve seen situations like that where people are making excuses instead of sales. Somebody planned to sell something and was talking about it for a long time. But all the dominoes had to be lined up just right before they’d flick it. Flick one of them and get it going. And ultimately, nothing happened. Sometimes we have a great idea, but then it’s like, “oh, it seems like too much work” or “I don’t want to do it,” or “I’m scared,” or whatever the deal is. And unfortunately, you’re building bridges to nowhere when you do that. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing making excuses instead of sales. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you so much, David. Such a pleasure to be here. And I’m excited about this topic. And I’m just going to be brutally honest upfront. I’m guilty of this very thing. As I’ve been involved in sales and sometimes numbers would drop, and the first thing I’m saying is, “well, it’s this,” or, “well, it’s that.” And the truth is it, might be. And so I think it’s important to always go back and reassess what you are doing and have you changed something or has something changed in your system? David: Yeah, it’s very easy to do. It’s an easy trap to fall into. Because whoever really wants to say ” it’s my fault?” And yet, our behavior is one of the only things that we really, truly have control over to the extent that we can get control over it, right? We can’t control a lot of outside factors, but we can largely control what we do and what we promise to do, and then try to connect the dots between those two things. Jay: Yeah. I remember I was in a training and they pointed out that so often when a mistake happens or say sales have a problem, we’re looking for the person to blame. And so often it’s not a person, it’s a system. It’s something that needs to be tweaked. But it’s so easy to just pick somebody and say, you know, “you’re the problem, you solve it.” Maybe you’re the frontline salesperson, and so you need to fix it or there are going to be consequences. And oftentimes I think that’s the wrong approach. David: Yeah, I agree. And I think the reason that this topic even came up is I had an experience, fairly recently, where I was just sort of blindsided by someone’s ability to blame every single outside factor rather than just the fact that they essentially weren’t selling. And this is common in a lot of different businesses. It’s common in a lot of different sales industries. A lot of times, “well, it’s the leads.” And if you ever saw Glengarry Glen Ross, “it’s the leads.” And I remember when I was first watching that movie, I was like, oh, that’s brutal. You know, it’s probably not the leads. And then you find out, in that particular movie, yeah, it was the leads, because they were giving them bad leads. That’s really the exception, rather than the rule though. It’s the leads, it’s the market, it’s the product, it’s the supply chain. There have been a lot of really, potentially very good excuses, a lot of different things that people can blame for their lack of producing, but none of that empowers the salesperson. None of it empowers the person who is making those excuses to actually address the issues that potentially need to be addressed. In other words, if there’s a problem with the leads, what can that person do to track down better leads? If it’s the market, are there other markets they can approach? Or are there segments of the market that they could and should be approaching? If it’s the product, are they representing the right product? Is there another product they should be selling? So for every excuse, there is normally something that the salesperson can do to address some aspect of the problem that they’re citing as being the real issue. Jay: Yeah, I think it’s so important what you’re talking about. Because I’ve been in a situation recently where we did a Google ad campaign and man, the leads were just coming in. But then we looked at our close rate, and it was just miserable. And so we had to assess, is this the type of lead we want? Because we’re spinning our wheels here. And so we had to change keywords and go through a lot of thought processes and reassess. Because in that case, it was the leads. But I also think it’s important, especially in sales, to constantly be reassessing your own performance and what you’re going through. because we fall into traps, right? And also it’s hard, the grind can be hard. And so things that you know you should be doing, you’re not this time because it’s just hard. So checking every box, every single time can be monotonous. So I think a lot of times the breakdown can just be with us. David: It can be. And it can be our failure to look at the other options that are available to us. It can be our failure to look at the issues that we’re blaming to say, “how could we potentially improve that?” And sometimes it’s not the actual situation that we think it is. In the example that you gave, you were able to determine that this group of leads worked and this group of leads didn’t. And if you got the same process, then you can say all right, we want more of the kind of leads that are going to work. Another option there would be to say, okay, is there something we can do to change the procedure on this particular group of leads to make it match? But that doesn’t always work. Sometimes it is the leads, just like in Glengarry Glen Ross. Sometimes it actually is the leads. But that doesn’t alleviate the responsibility of the salesperson to try to identify what we can do to deal with whatever situation we’re faced with. Because the problem is that if we don’t do that, we are really disempowering ourselves, and we’re training ourselves to blame outside factors that are beyond our control, which means we can never be in control. Whenever we do that, anytime we outsource responsibility somewhere else, anytime we outsource the blame to something else, then we’re completely disempowering ourselves. Jay: Yeah. I love that. That’s such a good point. Outsourcing the blame is not going to solve any problems. You know, it’s been kind of a running theme through all the podcasts that we do, that you should always be reassessing, you should always be looking at the numbers. We’ve talked about key performance indicators and saying, you know, we normally always have a good January. Now we’re not, what is going on? Is it seasonal? Is it the economy? Because we can be affected by so many things outside of our control, but if we’re not reassessing those and we can’t go back and look at where we were before, we might not even know we need to change. And then we’re outsourcing excuses as well. David: Yeah, I think there’s also a tendency for some people to think in terms of blame instead of responsibility. My thinking is it’s better if we can choose responsibility instead of blame. Choose responsibility over blame. That means you know, I’m not asking anybody to blame themselves. I’m not saying blame yourself for poor sales. What I’m saying is “what aspects of that can you take responsibility for?” Can you take the responsibility of saying, “okay, if I need better leads, I either need to dig them up myself, or I need to go to the person who provides the leads and convince that person that we need something different?” Look at whatever sliver of action you can take, whatever little thing you can do to advance the cause, because otherwise you’re just playing the victim and that never helps anyone, particularly in sales. Jay: Yeah, exactly. You know, another example… we were just recently excited. Somebody approached us, “Hey, we have this great new way to generate leads for you. It’s going to involve webinars and all of these things.” And again, it generated a decent amount of leads, but we couldn’t close any of them. And it was interesting because it felt like they were the right kind of leads. They were asking the right kind of questions. So we really spent a lot of time saying, is it us? Is it this particular client? And ultimately, we stopped using that service just because, for whatever reason, whatever it was doing, just not the ideal customer. But if we would’ve just said, oh, it’s not working, I would still today be thinking to myself, maybe we should have stuck with that longer. So try things and then tweak ’em as you go to make sure that if you’re going to not use them anymore, you’ve really done your due diligence. Otherwise, you might be chasing away good leads. David: Yeah. And I think listening skills are critical in that regard. When you’re talking to a different group of people, a different group of people that came in from a particular lead source that you’ve never done before, and you find that they’re not closing, what are they saying that is different than the other people that you normally talk to? What questions are they asking? What questions are they not asking? What questions are they not responding well to? Because a lot of times, if you get a list of people that just don’t have any money to spend, and you find that that’s a recurring motif in that particular lead source, then it’s pretty easy to understand. Okay, it’s going to be difficult to convert. But the challenge there is that there are a lot of people who have money, who pretend not to when they’re in a conversation with a salesperson. And so just because somebody says they don’t have money, very often that just means I don’t have money for you for what you’re proposing right now, because I still don’t get it. I don’t believe it. I don’t see the ROI. If you can show them the ROI, they can come up with the funds. And so that’s part of the challenge as well. Is the person that you’re talking to telling you the truth about their inability to buy, or are they just making something up because they don’t want to buy what it is that we’re offering? Jay: Yeah. And one other thing we’ve started doing recently is if it comes down to the point where they’re not going to buy or they say maybe in the future or whatever, and we put them into our database and we have a drip program that constantly reminds them about who we are and what we do. But to me, the follow-up to those individuals, a way to ask them straight up, “hey, can I ask what it is that kept you from using our services?” That’s hard to do, you know? David: Mm-hmm. Jay: But maybe it can be done through a form after the fact, an email that they can get. Any extra morsels of information to find out why this particular group of leads is not working out, I think could really be beneficial. David: Yeah. And I find that when it’s actually on a conversation, if someone tells you that on a conversation, yeah, listen, I don’t think we want to move forward on this. I find that to be a great time to be able to say to them, okay, I would much rather have a no or a yes than a maybe. So I appreciate the fact that you’re being candid with me. Can you tell me what was it that caused you to make that decision? It’s a decent time to ask, and you’re basically acknowledging what they said. You’re not trying to talk them out of it at that point. And then, in a lot of cases, they can really open up to you about some of what their issues were or are, and it’s possible then to sometimes swing back into a conversation where you’re able to address something that you didn’t know they needed addressed, answer a question that wasn’t officially asked previously. And once that pressure or tension is taken away where they think you’re trying to sell them something, they can very often be a lot more open in their responses. Jay: Yeah, this is such a great point because if you ask them, Hey, can you tell me what it is? They may come back and their answer may demonstrate to you that they missed the whole point. That you had been talking the whole time and they completely missed your benefits. They completely misunderstood you. And so like you said, that may restart the whole sales cycle again. But now you have a better understanding of what they’re looking for. David: Yeah, exactly. So part of my feeling here is that it’s important for any of us who are dealing with this type of thing to start out by looking inward. Essentially asking yourself, what can you do today, right now, to advance your own sales career? To target better prospects? To initiate more contacts? Whatever it is that you need to do, there’s probably something that you can do and that you should do to advance that process. Also, I think there are some people who think they might want to try to sell something, but if they’re not committed to making that happen, they can stretch it out for days, weeks, months, or years, if people let them, and never sell a thing. And I’ve seen situations like that where somebody had planned to sell something and was talking about it for a long time, and all the dominoes had to be lined up just right before they’d flick it, you know, flick one of them and get it going. And ultimately nothing happened. And that I think is just a failure of vision in terms of “what am I really planning to do and what will I actually take action on?” Because sometimes we have a great idea, but then it’s like, “oh, it seems like too much work” or “I don’t want to do it,” or “I’m scared,” or whatever the deal is. And unfortunately, you’re building bridges to nowhere when you do that. You’re trying to set up all these different things to be in place, but if you fail to, you know, flick the domino or pull the trigger, nothing’s going to happen. Jay: Yeah. Such a great point. And if you’re outsourcing that blame or that responsibility, then you need to reassess. David, how can people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call. Schedule a call with myself or my team, and we’ve been taking a number of calls, particularly over the past couple of weeks, and it’s been great having conversations with people who are really serious about growing their sales and profits. Because the reality of the situation is, you know the old 80/20 rule. And who knows, these days it might be 85/15, or 90/10 or 95/5. And we love having conversations with people who are serious about growing their sales and profits. We love having the conversations where we can sort of walk them through their current situation. Where they’re looking to be in terms of sales and profits and visibility in the marketplace. We try to make these calls as valuable as possible, whether or not we ever end up working together. It kind of doesn’t matter. If you are serious about growing your sales and profits and you want to have a conversation, go to TopSecrets.com/call. We would love to have those conversations with you. Jay: All right, that’s awesome. Thank you so much, David. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Serious about Growing Your Business, Starting Now? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

When dealing with indecisive prospects, we each have to recognize our own tolerance for pain. How long am I willing to chase? How long am I willing to wait? What am I willing to sacrifice in terms of my own time and my own self-esteem? Right? And it’s different at different stages of life. I spent so much time in the past just trying to accommodate people who, ultimately, it wouldn’t have made sense to accommodate in the first place. And so for me, I recognize that it’s not always a good idea to just do that. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing indecisive prospects. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Thank you so much. This is the bane of the existence of so many salespeople. You think you have somebody, they see the benefits, but they just can’t seem to make up their mind. And you know that you can help them. You know that if they would just do this, they would be on their way to a better place. But you just can’t get ’em over that finish line. It’s so frustrating. David: Yeah, Jay, you know, I was really struggling to decide if we should do a podcast on this topic. It was weighing on me and I’m thinking, should we do it? Should we not do it? And I went back and forth and I spent eight months, and then I decided, yeah, maybe we’ll do it. No. That approach it’s brutal and we’ve all dealt with it. The term wishy-washy comes to mind where they just can’t or won’t make a decision and it’s frustrating. But it’s also kind of unnecessary. Because when you’re dealing with someone who really is just not able to make a decision, it’s almost a disqualifier for me. And it very often becomes a disqualifier for me. Because if we’ve laid out our best-case scenario for why it makes sense to move forward with something we’re doing or not to move forward with something that we’re doing. If we do that and they still sort of go back and forth and they don’t know why or they can’t put their finger on it, then they’re probably not a good prospect. Because the problem with indecisive prospects is they go on to become indecisive clients. That means every time you want to sell something to them, they’re going to have to think about it or go away and meditate on it or whatever it is they’re going to have to do. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking for everybody. They’re not getting the result of whatever it is that they were thinking about buying from you. You’re spending a lot of time chasing them. They spend a lot of time either being chased or avoiding being chased or dodging you. So for me, it can become a disqualifier pretty quickly. Jay: Yeah, and I think you’ve actually kind of zeroed in on a larger recognition. Are we thinking about what type of customer this is going to be while we’re talking about them initially? Because it may not just be that they’re indecisive. We may through the conversation find out this client is going to be very hard to work with. They have a bazillion questions, or they seem so demanding or whatever. I think that kind of pre-assessment in the process can be very important. I also think with indecisive people, you know, you have to have your steps. Have I gone through every step of the process? Have I tried every skillset that I have in the book? If they’re still waffling back and forth, then you’re exactly right. Is this somebody that I want to be working with on a daily basis? Is it worth my time? And I think the answer is probably no. David: Yeah. Listen to what people tell you. If you’re having an interaction with someone who’s considering working with you, pay attention to what they say. If their story changes dramatically from day to day, that is a huge red flag. I had a situation recently where someone talked about how determined they were to grow their business. They wanted to get it to a certain point as quickly as possible, and the reasons that they were doing it were all very noble. They wanted to do it for their family and they wanted to reach this particular level of sales, and they wanted to do it sooner rather than later. And then two days later they decided they weren’t going to do it because they needed to do something with their house first. They needed to, you know, fix up their house before they could focus on this. And it’s like, okay, well that’s perfectly fine. Right? Everybody gets to choose their own priorities. And the person said, Hey, I’m not saying we’re not going to work together. I’m just saying that, you know, not right now. And my response was, well, you know, listen, as of the other day, your focus was on growing your business, doing very specific things to achieve a very specific result to benefit very specific people. And now your priority is to do something completely different. I understand you’re saying that we could work together in the future, but based on what you’re telling me, I’m not your guy. You know, I can’t help someone whose priorities change from day-to-day, minute to minute, second to second. I can’t help someone like that because if today you move toward Goal A and tomorrow you move toward Goal Z and those goals lie in completely opposite directions, I can’t do it. You know? No one can do it because you can’t operate in multiple directions at the same time. And so I think some of indecisiveness comes from people not being extremely clear on where they want to go in the first place. Or not committing to where they say they want to go in the first place. So for me, when people commit to going in a certain direction, I know I can help them get there faster. I know I can help them get farther in that destination. But when they’re all over the place, wow, it’s a lose-lose. Jay: Yeah. what’s so frustrating about that is in the moment when they focus, they’re in, right? They’re going to buy your product. And then the next time you talk to them, it’s as if none of that ever happened. They completely changed their mind and you’re like, wait a minute. You know, we had this figured out. We had put together a plan, and now they’re on a different planet. Man, that can be a frustrating process. So if you can identify that type of behavior earlier on, then you can move on to other people. I do think that you still want to maintain some type of contact with that person through a drip campaign or something, because eventually they may want to come back to you. But when they do, hopefully they’re ready then. David: Yeah. And I would say earlier in my career, that would be the kind of thing that I would probably continue to chase out. But again, I think you get to a certain point and you recognize certain behaviors. And for me, with what I do, we have to have congruity in our communications. We have to have congruity in our actions. So when I noticed that that’s the case, it says to me, this is not a good fit. I’m not going to be able to help a person like that. If they want to come back later and say, Hey, now I’m really focused on it, and if it makes sense, I’d be happy to do that. But for me, I’m not chasing that out and I’m not saying other people shouldn’t, I’m just saying that’s the way that I’m approaching it now, because there are so many people who get it, who are focused, who are able to maintain their focus. And those are my peeps. You know, those are the people that I’m looking to work with. And it is a relatively small subset of the population. And so when you have somebody that you think is like that, and then they may or may not turn out to be that way, you have to make those decisions according to your own guidelines and according to who you think you can help and who you think you can’t. Jay: Yeah, I totally agree. And it depends on the type of business whether or not you can do this, but I’ve seen where people have steps that identify if the customer is serious. So we’ve had an initial call and I’ve said, okay, I’m going to send something over for you to look at. And then you call ’em up and you’re like, have you looked at that? And they’re like, well, no, I haven’t. Okay, they’re not progressing to step two. So I’m not going to try and progress them to step three yet, because they’re not showing that they’re moving in my direction. Not every business has clear steps like that. But if you can identify, you know, okay, in our sales process, I’ve requested information from the client so that I can get them a quote, for example. Well, if I’m having to beat myself up every day to get that information, that’s a very quick indicator that this is probably somebody that you’re not going to be able to get over the finish line right now. And so I love it if you can identify individual places where you can say, ah, it’s time to move on. David: Yeah. I also think that as a salesperson, we each have to recognize our own tolerance for pain. You know, how long am I willing to chase? How long am I willing to wait? How much am I willing to sacrifice in terms of my own time and my own self-esteem? Right? And it’s different at different stages of life. I’m feeling like some of the things I’m saying on the podcast today are dating me in terms of the way that I do things now versus the way that I used to do things. But I spent so much time in the past just trying to accommodate people who, ultimately, it wouldn’t have made sense to accommodate in the first place. And so for me, I’ve recognized that it’s not always a good idea to just do that. You know, we don’t want to wait forever. We want to be able to have respect for their time and for our time and just ask ourselves, do these people even do what they say they’re going to do? If they say they’re going to respond back, do they respond back? Are they communicative? Because if you can’t communicate with your people, as we had discussed in a previous episode, it’s very difficult to get much of anything done. And to the extent that there are specific contradictions where they say one thing and then they say something completely different later, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to point that out. Not in a bad way. Not in a negative way, but just to say, okay, well listen, the other day you told me this and now you’re telling me that. This doesn’t really seem to make sense. And if the goal is to get the business anyway, then what you would do is you would say, okay, can you clarify that for me so we can figure it out? Or if the goal is to say, okay, that’s sort of a bridge too far, then you say, I don’t think it makes sense for us. And either of those responses are okay. Unless, you’re in a situation where you have a boss who demands that you close the sale regardless, which I don’t think is ultimately always healthy. But in those situations, then yeah, you’ll probably have to work harder at seeing if there can be a fit if it doesn’t seem like there is a fit now. Jay: Yeah. There’s one other type of person that I run into, and that’s a person who will always talk to you. They’ll always pick up the phone. They’ll talk to you for hours, but they’re never going to buy from you. But you’ve established a relationship and they may even ask you more questions about your product, but they just want to talk and they’re never going to ever close. Yeah, those people are time suckers, and it’s easy to fall into the trap and believe if I can just talk to them enough, I can close them. And you’re not going to, because really you’ve become their friend, not a service provider. David: Yeah. And a lot of salespeople have fallen into that trap where maybe they’re just having a rough day and people are being rude to them and hanging up on them and they’re like, well, I’ll call this person cause at least I know this person will be nice. Not going to be selling anything, but at least I know that this person will be nice to me. And it’s a defense mechanism. I understand it. But if you recognize that while you’re doing that, you are not potentially in touch with someone who can buy from you, it may be motivation to try to move on to the next person who could actually do business with you. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. Don’t interpret their willingness to communicate with a willingness to buy your product. You have to always be thinking about that. Great conversation, David. How can people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team. We can walk through whatever issues you’re dealing with now. If you’re having trouble getting through to the right people, if you’re struggling with indecisive prospects, if you need to bring new prospects and clients through the door consistently, and you need to have a backlog of people you’re waiting to serve, rather than a big gap in your sales pipeline, go to that link, TopSecrets.com/call. We’ll schedule a call. We’ll see how we can help you. Jay: All right. Thank you so much, David. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Serious About Growing Your Business, Starting Today? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

The 2026 Hotel Equities Leadership Conference in Las Vegas was a tremendous success! The annual event was filled with thought leadership, networking, and insights with the best and the brightest in the industry.  The Suite Spot and Hotel Equities have partnered together to bring you Hotel Equities Part 2, in the latest Suite Spot episode, which contains three exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names at Hotel Equities. Episode Transcript Our podcast is produced as an audio resource. Transcripts are generated using speech recognition software and human editing and may contain errors. Before republishing quotes, we ask that you reference the audio. Ryan Embree: Welcome to Suite Spot, where hoteliers check in, and we check out what's trending in hotel marketing. I'm your host, Ryan Embree. Hello everyone. Ryan Embree here with the Suite Spot. We hope you enjoyed episode one of our special edition Hotel Equities Leadership Conference 2026. This is episode two where we're gonna sit down with Karen Mendez and David Rosenberg, who's gonna talk to us about the exciting updates from the postcard, cabins and outdoor collection brand from Marriott. We talked to Bill Stachler about revenue optimization. And lastly, we sit down with Albert Smith, Chief Operating Officer at Hotel Equities. We hope you enjoy these interviews, out in Las Vegas. Ryan Embree: Hello Everyone. Ryan Embree here with the Suite Spot. We are at the 2026 Hotel Equities Leadership Conference. I'm here with Karen Mendez, VP of Operations, and David Rosenberg, President of the Focus Services Division and Outdoor Collection. Karen, David, thank you so much for joining me on the Suite Spot. Karen & David: Thank you for having us. Ryan Embree: Yeah. Well, let's talk about this conference. First of all, nearly a thousand people are gonna be here on site. This is very, very exciting. Um, talk to us a little bit about what you're kind of expecting for these next couple days, and then we can get into your role a little bit. Karen, we'll start with you. Karen Mendez: Oh, great. Thank you. Um, this is really exciting for me. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, this is, I've been in the hotel industry 26, 27 years. I've been to a ton of conferences, and what I'm most excited about this one is bringing the postcard general managers. They have never had an opportunity to get together like this and really talk about their business. So I'm just excited for them to build off the energy and to meet everybody within hotel equities face to face, and really just know that what they do matter. Ryan Embree: David, what are you excited about for the next couple days here at that leadership conference? David Rosenberg: I appreciate that. So our theme this year is Transforming Together and 2025 was an incredible year with the additional postcard, cabins, springboard, hospitality, our continued organic growth, not only in the US Canada, but as now we have presences in the Caribbean and Latin America. And to come together the one time a year where we get to bring an entire leadership team. It's just inspiring to connect, learn from each other and share this time together. Ryan Embree: So cool. And so it's just a testament to the comprehensive nature of hotel equities portfolio. I think, you know, one of those spaces, obviously postcard cabins and the, the, um, outdoor collection that we're gonna talk about. Karen, you want to talk to us a little bit about your role and, um, what it, you know, how it kind of correlates with the outdoor collection? Karen Mendez: Sure, my pleasure. Um, we started working with postcard cabins last year, um, in January with a specific goal of bringing that brand and launching it into the Marriott ethos. So the past year, my job has been molding the two cultures, all the systems, the general managers onboarding, and getting this team ready for Marriott and getting Marriot ready for outdoors. Um,

When I say your competition isn’t that good, that most of your competition is average, what I mean is that a lot of them are not taking the time to learn the things that will allow them to do things better. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today’s episode, co host Jay McFarland and I say, your competition isn’t that good. Right, Jay? Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Do you even know who your competition is? Do you know what they offer? Do you know what people think of them compared to you? Maybe you don’t even know if your competition is that good. David: Exactly. And I hear, so many times, when I’m talking to salespeople, the idea that, there’s a lot of competition. Competition is very difficult. There’s a lot of online competition. There’s a lot of local competition. There’s a lot of price-cutting competition. There are all these different variations on competition. And that’s all true. But a lot of them really, honestly, just aren’t that good. And if you recognize right up front that most businesses are average, right? There’s an average in every business, in every industry, there’s an average. And some people are better than average. Some people are worse than average. There are a lot of average. So if you’re competing with the average or the less than average, then you should be able to do pretty well. If you’re a conscientious individual, if you’re reasonably good at what you do, if you study and practice your profession and you get reasonably good at it, you’ll be able to outperform a lot of them because to the extent that there are really exceptional competitors in your market, there are a lot less of those than there are the ones on the other side. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve always believed this, you know, you can get caught up in the muck. When I was in radio, I worked for a radio station that had a built in listenership because it was so ingrained in the community. And what that did is it made it so they didn’t have to work hard to get sales or to get numbers. Now you would think, oh man, that’s an amazing place to be. But what happened is, they started to get complacent, right? Everything was so easy, and then all of a sudden ratings started to shift and suddenly they realized, we don’t know how to sell. Because we’re so used to sitting at a desk and the phone is ringing. And we’re just taking orders. So you’re not a salesperson, you’re taking orders, right? And their competitors started to eat them alive because their competitors had to sell all the time, and they were very good at it. So sometimes you’re successful just in spite of yourself. And that may be what your competitors are in, what state they’re in. David: It really could be as simple as that and as difficult as that, in either situation. But, you know, the idea that the competition is excellent, or the competition is terrible, or the competition is average. In a sense, none of it really matters. Because this is life. This is the world that we’re in. These are the cards we’ve been dealt, right? So our competition is there. We’re there. The question is, how are we going to make sure that we are outperforming our competition in all the key areas of customer contact? I mean, if you were to boil it down and say, okay, let’s say my competition is very good. Let’s say you completely disagree with the premise of this podcast, that your competition isn’t that good, or that it’s average or whatever you say. “No, I’ve got a lot of competition.” Okay, then that’s your question. How do you outperform your competition in all key areas of customer contact? Some people may say, “well, I don’t know. What are the key areas of customer contact?” And if you’re asking yourself that kind of question, that indicates that there’s work to be done in your organization. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And do you even know how the competition functions to be able to compare yourself? I mean, that’s got to be at least half the battle, right? David: Yeah, that’s part of the battle. Maybe it’s a third of the battle. Jay: Okay. David: I was gonna say a quarter, maybe it’s a quarter to a third of the battle. And the only reason I say that is I don’t think we should spend a ton of time overanalyzing our average competitors. I mean, if there’s a really, really good one, yeah, you can take a look at what they’re doing. But ultimately, sure, we all want to outperform our competitors. But what do we really want? We want to get to the point where we’re so good at what we do that it’s no longer about outperforming our competitors. Now it’s a matter of outperforming our past best, right? What’s the best we were able to do? When you’re leading in a market, when you really are the market leader, you’re doing things right, you’re doing things well and efficiently, you’re already better than a lot of your average competitors, then the goal you want to reach for is how can I do what we do better in our own organization? Right? How can we initiate contact better? How can we leave messages better? How can we send emails that are more compelling? What are the very specific things, all these points of customer contact that could potentially change for the better to get me better results? Jay: Yeah, I love this idea that your true competition really is yourself, right? It’s kind of like golf or, you know, another single person sport where you’re, really competing against yourself. And, if you can identify constantly ways to get better and you’re not falling into that complacency, then you’re probably going to do better than most of your competitors. David: Yeah, exactly. Something else that I read recently, was talking about the idea that a lot of us want to try to beat our best month ever, our best year ever. We’re always looking to top that top line, which makes a lot of sense. But I read this in a book by Nic Peterson. He said that, ideally, our goal should be to beat our bottom. In other words, sales are going to go up and down, right? That’s going to happen over a period of time. Sales are going to go up and down. We’re going to have peaks and valleys, and hopefully it works on an upward trajectory, and as you’re doing that, if you can make sure that the floor is constantly rising ,then eventually you get to the point where your floor is higher than other people’s ceiling. And if you think about the idea of being better than your competitors, that’s really what you want. Cause if you have a great month this month, an exceptional month, then it’s like, okay, now the new month starts. Now you’re at zero again. You got to start from scratch. Right? But if you know that your first goal for that month is to make sure that you’re above your previous floor. Then it seems a lot more doable. It’s like, okay, we might not have another peak month this month, but if we can stay above our floor, then we will continue to grow and grow. Jay: Yeah, I really like that. I’m somebody who tends to look at records, right? Like we just finished a record month and I’m like on a high, right? Things are great, but you’re exactly right. I mean, next month beating that every single month, month after month. Is that realistic? I think you’re pointing out, no, it’s probably not, and it could be counterproductive. David: Yeah, it’s probably not realistic that each month is going to be higher than the last, and there are not going to be any that are lower. But I think it’s also realistic to say, okay, can I beat our worst month? Or a recent worst month? It’s like if you look at a stock chart and you see how there are these different… Jay: let’s call them peaks and valleys, ups and downs. David: Yeah, peaks and valleys. So if it’s bottoming out at a certain point, you want to say, okay, I want to get in higher than that. It’s a terrible explanation, but you kind of get the drift. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And again, we kind of always fall back to this, is what systems do you have to track these types of things? Do you understand the cause and effect? I mean, so often, yeah, you had a good sales month, or yeah, you increased the baseline, but do you know why you did that? Was it just the phone rang more? Or was it something tangible? Because if it’s not something tangible, how are you gonna repeat it? Was it more calls? Was it more advertising dollars? What was it that got you there? If you don’t know, then the business is driving you. You’re not driving the business. David: Exactly. And each of those things are some of these different areas of customer contact, right? Whether it’s the advertising, whether it’s the phone calls, whatever it is, when we’re looking at that, we’re saying, okay, where are these key points of contact and what can I do to make each of those better? Can I make the messaging better? Can I tweak the messaging? Can I reach a different or better group of people? All these different things. Can I reach them using different marketing vehicles? Can I reach them online? Can I reach them offline? Can I reach them on the phone, via text, via email? How can I reach them? And look at what you’re doing, look at what’s working well and what may be not working as well as it used to, and then say, okay, how could I tweak some of these things, the messaging, the combination of marketing vehicles we’re using, or the people we’re reaching, the MVPs, we’ve talked about that a lot in the past. Which of these can I adapt, can I fine tune, like tuning in an old fashioned radio where they used to have dials on them, right? That type of thing. So you’re able to dial it in clearly and make sure that you’re getting the right people, saying the right things, using the right combination of marketing vehicles. Jay: Yeah, we talked about this last time, avoiding assumptions, figuring out why you got that customer, right? Cause you may be thinking, “oh, I had a new ad campaign or new marketing and this is why they came in.” And maybe it was a contact you had made with them a year ago. Maybe it was a bad experience with one of the competitors. Maybe it was something that changed in their business cycle. I think that type of communication as to why they’re there, why you were able to close them, you need to have systems to track this and, be open and honest with your customers to find out. What was it that motivated them to come to you? David: Yeah, in our work with our clients, we talk a lot about intelligent repetition of contact, being in touch with people again and again and again, but without saying the same thing, without getting boring, without getting tedious, without driving them crazy, right? If we can do that, that’s intelligent repetition of contact, and it makes it far more likely that you will be in front of someone when they’re ready to make that buying decision. Jay: Yeah, I love that idea, but you’re still going to have competitors. So do you need to have some awareness of what they’re doing? Or do you kind of say, I’m going to focus on me and I’m just going to be the best I can and compete against myself? David: Well, I like that better. I like the idea of focusing on ourselves. What I’ve found though, is that in most markets, you don’t have to look too far to hear about what your competitors are doing. Because if you’re reaching out to a new prospect and you hear about one particular competitor again and again and again, that tells you who is actually pretty good in the market. If you hear those names again and again and again, if you hear different people, each time you talk to someone, then it’s like, okay, well that’s sort of the average, that’s the industry. But if you’re talking to a lot of people and they’re all saying the same thing and they’re all saying great things, that’s an indication that you have now found the leader in your market. So that’s what you need to target, then. Then you may look at, okay, well, what are they doing? How are they doing it? How is it better than what we’re doing? Or is it? Is it not better than what we’re doing? But they don’t know what we do, so they can’t compare. Jay: Yeah, and finding out, can I even compete with them in one particular area? Maybe that exposes a different lane for you where you can be competitive, right? So it’s not like you have to play chicken with everybody. That may not be the best solution. We’re in a very unique industry because our products and services are so defined that I only have probably three competitors nationwide. And so when I talk to people, oftentimes, our competitors will come up and sometimes it’s in a good light. Quite often, like you said, my competitors are average. They aren’t that good. It’s not hard at all for us to offer better customer service, better products, everything. I have found, that, a lot of people are like, oh, I hope they don’t go and research and talk to my competitors and get outbid. I’m like, go and talk to them. Go and have that experience because I know you’ll be back and I’m in a better position when you come back. So that’s made us more confident than less confident. David: Yeah. And when you have a small number like that, it is easier to know what each of them are doing. I remember in our promotional product business, back in the day, we had a situation where there was one competitor that wasn’t really known for answering their phones. You try to reach them and you couldn’t get through to them. And so, if a sales person of ours, or if I was in a conversation with somebody and they say, “Oh yeah, we use this company,” sometimes I’d say something like, “Oh, are you able to get them to answer their phone?” And very often they’d laugh. Because if you know this about a company, you can say something like that. Like, “Oh, well, they don’t usually answer, but I can usually get a call back.” “Oh, okay. Well, if you ever get tired of that, or if you ever get voicemail and you’d like to talk to a human, here’s my card, right? That’s just a small example, but you basically look for the things that you know to be true about a competitor. And I’m not saying you’re picking on them. I’m not saying you’re dissing them or anything, but you just point out a very obvious truth about them. And very often that will get their attention. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love it. How do people find out more? David: Go to TopSecrets.com/call and watch the video on that page. See if it makes sense to have a conversation with myself or my team. When I say your competition isn’t that good, what I mean is that a lot of them are not taking the time to learn the things that will allow them to do things better. And if you’re in that camp, if you’d like to be able to do things better and differently than your competition, if you’d like to be seen as the leader in your market, then by all means, TopSecrets.com/call. Jay: All right. Fantastic, David. Always a pleasure. David: Thank you, Jay. Your Competition Isn’t That Good. Ready to Outperform them in All Key Areas of Customer Contact? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

We get results from social media when we’re able to identify the result that we’re looking to get, and identify the messaging that we need to create to be able to get in front of these ideal prospects to have them raise their hands and express interest. When we do those things correctly, then you can get to the point where nearly everybody you talk to is actually qualified to do business with you. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today’s episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will discuss how to get results from social media. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. This is a big topic. Talk about opening a can of worms. It’s something everybody wants, and we talked, last podcast about learning online and what great resources there are. This is a place where there may be such an overload of information and different ideas that I don’t know if you’re going to find the answer online. I really don’t. David: You’ll find a lot of answers online. Yeah., Right? Whether or not it’s the answer you’re looking for, whether or not it’s the answer that solves your problem, that is the big question mark. But I feel like this topic is so important because everyone’s on social media. Everyone’s trying to figure out what to do and how to get results. And the reason that I believe the word results is so important is that it narrows your focus. It forces you to think in terms of, okay, what is the result I even want to get here? What am I trying to do? Because as we talked about in a previous podcast, you can go on social media and it’s nothing but distraction after distraction. And if you just turn it on and go in there without a really strong focus in terms of what you want to accomplish, what result you want to get, you’re not getting any sort of result, except you’re going to get pulled into other people’s experiences. So from my standpoint, the first thing we need to do is to identify what is the result that I would like to get from social media? And then you can look at how much time that I spend on there is actually allocated to getting that result. That’ll tell you a lot right off the bat. Jay: Yeah, and I think that there is a misguided focus that you need a large audience, right? Like if I can get up to 10, 000 followers or whatever, that’s not true. it could be better to have a thousand dedicated followers who are potential clients than having a hundred thousand people who may just clog up your pipeline and who really never are going to be your clients. David: Right. And if they’re not responding to what you do, if they’re not liking, if they’re not replying, then the algorithm says people aren’t interested in this. So you’re exactly right. If you just had the hundred people or so who are going to click today’s link on there. You’d be seeing everybody, everyone would be seeing your stuff. But of course it’s impossible to do that. So you’re exactly right. It’s about saying, all right, well, how can I get to more of the right kind of people who resonate with the material that I’m putting out? And I am not speaking as an authority on social media. Okay. I want to be really clear about this. I’m not coming to you and saying, oh yes, I’m the guy for social media. No, not saying that. However, what we have been able to do is to identify specific things that our clients have wanted to accomplish, and we’re very good at helping them accomplish it, once we decide exactly what those results are. Jay: Yeah, I’ll tell you where we’re at right now in our company. As you know, we offer Tax Services to a very specific group, so, I’ve told you in the past, we have spent two years identifying keywords for paid ads, and it’s been a constant process where we’re refining, I do the consultations, And so when I see that we’re getting consultations that are not in the strike zone, I go back to our keyword, you know, the person doing our Google ads, and we refine, and we refine, and refine. And I’ve told you, We’re to a place now, it’s kind of like our secret recipe, where we don’t get a consultation that is not in the strike zone anymore. We’ve been that focused. But it costs us a hundred dollars per consultation. That’s what we’re paying. And that’s a pretty steep fee. So obviously we’re like, okay, how do we get organic people to come to our website from social media, where they’ve seen something that we’re providing, and they’re clicking through and that doesn’t cost us anything, right? So that’s the goal, that’s the dream. But now we’re in another problem. We could probably get tons of people coming to our site. But now I don’t want everybody clicking on the schedule a consultation. Because I’d be back in that same problem. I’d be talking to a lot of people who I can’t help. So this is the dilemma. This is where we’re at in our company right now, moving to social media, but we have to be very strategic about how we do that. David: Yes. But you’re very clear on the results you’re looking for. Yes. You’re looking for a very specific type of client. You’re looking for a very specific criteria. And for you, you know that even though a hundred seems expensive, you know that it’s worth it because you know that each client is going to be worth quite a bit more than that. If the service that you were offering cost 50 dollars, you could not do what you’re doing. And that’s something else that I think is important for people to understand. Not every product, not every service is going to work in terms of social media advertising, no matter how great you get at it, because there’s always going to be competition for various keywords. There’s going to be a number of factors that go into it. So if you don’t have a product that justifies that kind of investment, if you’re selling a pack of gum at a time, right? When you go into a grocery store and you check out, there’s a pack of gum, they’re like, Oh, I’ll have a pack of gum. You take it as an impulse buy, right? That sort of thing. It’s very unlikely that you’re going to be able to run ads on social media and sell a pack of gum, right? I mean, just the shipping costs on it, it’s not going to work. There’s some things that don’t work. When you understand that, then you can recognize that if you want to sell something that doesn’t sell particularly well on social media, you need to find other ways to do that. And of course, that’s the subject of a totally different podcast. But when we think about the results that we’re looking to get. There are a number of different ones, right? The first one is, in your case, it’s about getting someone to have a conversation with, who is qualified. Getting a qualified person to raise their hands and express interest. And you’re talking about your secret recipe. And I’ve always maintained that any business that does not have some secret recipe in it, is not going to last very long. And I’ve had people argue with me about this a lot. It’s like what are you talking about? You know, we’ve got a commodity business, essentially, like if your business is a commodity, that’s going to be a reflection on your sales, right? If it’s just a total commodity, it is going to reflect in your numbers. There’s got to be something special, something different that you bring to the table, either in terms of the product or service that you’re offering, or in terms of the way that you sell it, right? Because if you’re selling a commodity, Then you need to be better at attracting the type of clients who want to buy that commodity. We do a lot of work in the promotional products industry, in the print industry, and a lot of people view that as a commodity. I sell print services. I’m an offset printer. Everybody sells offset printing. It’s like, that is correct. But what are the types of clients that you really want to bring in, right? Who are the kinds of clients who are going to spend the kind of money with you that you want to actually encourage, right? You don’t just want to take anyone with a pulse, anyone who can fog a mirror. You don’t want to just take anyone who comes through the door. When you’re building a business proactively, you’re deciding who you want to work with and who you want to choose to leave to your competitors. So again, I want to stay focused on our topic, which is social media. We need to recognize that there are specific results we want, and then once we’ve identified what those results are, we can start to figure out what the specific plan is for getting those things to happen. Jay: Yeah, and I’ll tell you, I don’t say this very often, but I really think this is a situation where you may be better off not trying to learn it yourself. You know, I’ve watched videos, I’ve taken online courses, and everybody’s like, even down to the thumbnail you put on your YouTube videos and the, you know, what do in the video where I’m pointing at the, you know, taking all these pictures, I’m, looking like surprise and look, this is amazing and the clickbaity titles and all of those things, but that’s always changing. That target is always moving, right? I’ve used something as simple as Fiverr, right? Where somebody who charges me 50 bucks a week, but this is what they do. I’ve gotten more results from that than I have ever gotten from trying to follow somebody on YouTube, and so I’ve just decided I’m not going to learn it. I’m paying somebody else to do it because I want to focus my time on what’s most important. And that’s what we’ve found. Again, I’m not saying everybody that’s the solution for you, but we have spent a lot of time in this arena, and that’s how we’ve gotten results. David: It makes perfect sense. I think it was Dean Graziosi, who I originally heard this from, he was talking about the fact that when you have the money to solve a problem, you no longer really have that problem, unless you’re too cheap to spend the money, right? And so if you can pay somebody 50 dollars and you can get ad results that allow you to multiply your ad investment, it’s silly not to do that. That also goes to the topic of “who, not how.” Dan Sullivan wrote a book about that. If you’re looking to do everything, every aspect of your business, you shouldn’t, because there are going to be things that you’re not going to be naturally good at. But I think the core of this particular topic, when we talk about getting results from social media, The biggest problem is not social media. The biggest problem is people don’t know exactly what result they want, right? They may think, “Oh, I just want to get more sales.” Well, yes, you do want to get more sales, but there are steps to that. And the first step, particularly if you’re using social media is going to be figuring out a way to somehow identify who those people are, whether you’re doing it organically, whether you’re doing it with paid ads, there are specific things that you need to do. If those things don’t happen, you’re not going to get more clients. And whether it’s you coming up with the how on how to do that, or whether you’re paying someone else to do it for you, you’ve got to be able to convey to them what you want, and that’s where a lot of people get stuck. They’re just so unclear on exactly what they want to have happen that they can’t get it done because they can’t even convey it to someone who can help them do it. Jay: Yeah, such an important point. I mean, I’m just sitting here thinking, if you imagined our business with a storefront, you would think I want to line out the door and down the block. I don’t. Right? I want the door locked and I’m buzzing you in, once I’ve decided that you fit in a specific category. That seems to go against everything. that we’ve learned about business, but we know that because we’ve spent so much time defining exactly what you’re talking about. And what I think is the core, if anybody takes away from this podcast, and that is, if you don’t know what you want, how are you going to craft social media or any type of marketing towards that specific thing? That’s got to be job one. David: Yeah, and the truth of the matter is that that situation you described about buzzing people in versus having the line, anyone who has been even remotely successful at identifying their audience and identifying ways to attract the right people into their organization would much rather have the buzzer, right? Because otherwise you’re having to swat people away, and that is time consuming and it’s difficult. So when we’re able to identify the result that we’re looking to get, identify the messaging that we need to create to be able to get in front of these ideal prospects to get them to raise their hands and express interest. When we do those things correctly, then you can get to the point where you are, where nearly everybody you talk to or everybody you talk to is actually qualified to do business with you. Jay: Yeah, I mean think about it. We’re literally saying how do we get fewer leads? You know what I mean? It just seems like it’s such a different approach. And I want to add one more thing. We’re about out of time here. And I think we should talk about this in another podcast. People who do have successful social media programs, you don’t want to rely on social media. They change their algorithms all the time. And your goal should not be just to get a sale. It should be to offload them onto one of your properties. Your mailing list, your website, something else. Because you could spend all this money and have a great system and then an algorithm changes and you’re sunk. So I’d love to dive into that a little bit more in the future. David: Yeah, that’s a good one. And also the fact that the people who do this extremely well are not just running one ad forever. It’s very unlikely that’s going to happen. There are constantly going to be changes that are necessary because either the market has seen it and it’s gotten stale or there are approaches that work better and differently, or as you indicated, the algorithm could change. There are a lot of different factors that go into it. So if you think you’re going to come up with one magic thing that’s going to work forever, it’s very unlikely that’s going to happen. But when you’re aware of the factors that you need to be able to focus on, you’re going to be a lot more likely to get the results you want. Jay: Yeah, eventually competitors are going to steal that secret recipe. And what are you going to do then, right? How do you define yourself? David, as always, it’s a pleasure. How do people find out more? David: Go to TopSecrets.com/install. Check out the video. See if it makes sense to have a conversation with myself or our team. We love having conversations with really sharp, motivated entrepreneurs, salespeople, those who are looking to grow their sales and profits in a way that is sustainable. You’re not looking for just the next new thing, the next whatever it is that somebody says is going to get you the business you’re looking for. It’s unique to everyone, and we need to be able to recognize and utilize your unique strengths in your solution. Otherwise, if you say, well, the solution is Instagram, the solution is Facebook, the solution is this, it’s that. No, the solution is identifying what is going to work best for you, and that’s what we do with our clients. So, TopSecrets.com/install. Jay: Fantastic. David, as always, a pleasure. Thank you. David: Thank you, Jay. Ready to Get Results from Social Media? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

To improve business communication fast, consider this… If nothing that you convey in your communication, instills any sort of belief in the other person as to why they should take the action that you’re requesting, then it’s not at all likely they’re going to take that action. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the TBDs. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, it’s such a pleasure to be here with you again, David. We’re talking about communication here and I’ll be honest. Oftentimes we’ll discuss a podcast that we want to do, or you’ll send me the topics and I sit here and think, you know, I’ve never once thought about this type of thing. How to improve communication. I just kind of fall in the trap. You know, I talk to people, I send them emails. I’m guessing that that’s good communication, but I’ve not really thought about it, David. David: Yeah. I sort of introduced this topic backwards, I guess, at the top of this podcast. When I say we’re going to be talking about the TBDs, what we’re really talking about is improving our communication with the TBDs. And for those of you who are saying, “what are they talking about?” Allow me to elaborate. A lot of times when I’m working with clients, one of the things they’ll ask about is how to improve the results they’re getting with the communications they’re having with prospects. That could be anything from the messages they’re leaving on people’s voicemails. It could be not getting responses to emails. It could be the things they’re posting on social media, any form of outbound communication, whether it’s one-to-one or one-to-many. What you say in those communications is going to determine what happens. We touched on this a little bit in the previous episode. But if you want to really think about what is likely to get you the best results? I boil it down down for myself and my clients as what I refer to as the TBDs. Now, when people think of that abbreviation “to be determined,” that’s often what’s used there. That’s not what I’m thinking in terms of. When we want to communicate with other people and get a result, we should ask ourselves: “As a result of this communication, what do I want this person to think? What do I want them to believe, and what do I want them to do? Okay? If you structure your communication to address those three points, you’ll be far more likely to get the result you’re looking for. If I send somebody an email, and there’s nothing I want them to think, believe or do, there’s no reason to send that email. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: If I make a phone call, leave a voicemail message, or do anything to initiate contact with another human being, if there’s nothing in particular that I want them to think, believe, or do, then what’s the point of having the conversation? Now, if you’re calling a loved one, Okay. You know? Jay: Yeah. David: You want them to know that you love them. You want to know that they love you, all that sort of thing. But, in business in particular, in our communications, if we don’t have a reasonably good idea of what we want the other person to think, believe, or do, then there’s not a whole lot of reason to communicate. Jay: Yeah. That’s so powerful because how often or is the temptation I’m calling a client? Hey, just checking in, seeing how you’re doing give me a call back. It’s like, that’s the trap. I think so many of us fall into. I’m not thinking at that moment, what I want them to be thinking is, please call me back because you need me. But I sound kind of desperate and not like there’s a priority. There’s no urgency, there’s nothing really being conveyed. Right? David: Yes. And when we’re doing follow-up calls, when we’re doing check-in calls, and just even using those words in a voicemail message. There’s nothing really compelling for them to respond to there. Is there? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: If you’re saying to somebody, “Hey, I’m just checking in,” it’s like, “okay, well they’re just checking in. I’ve got nothing for ’em at this point. I guess I don’t need to respond to that.” But when you leave a message like that, We have things we want them to think, believe, and do. We want them to think, “oh, I’m going to get this message and I’m going to call this person back.” Ideally, we want them to believe that it would be in their best interest to pick up the phone and call us. We want them to do, we want them to pick up the phone and call us back, right? So it does kind of tie together, but when you’re conscious about it, It requires you to think differently and to speak differently and to approach the whole thing differently. If I want them to think that it’s important for them to call me back then saying, “Hey, I’m just calling to check in,” is probably not the best approach to take. And in most of our communications, it’s good to have some sort of call to action at the end of it. Give me a call back, drop me an email, send me a text, whatever it is, that’s the “do” portion of it, and that usually does come at the end. You want to have a very specific call to action at the end indicating what you would like or appreciate for them to do. Are they always going to do it? No, I leave messages for people who don’t call me back. Even people that I’ve known for a long time, who I’ve worked with and things like that. For whatever reason, that still happens. But if you are at least clear, on your end, about why you’re calling, what you’re looking to accomplish in that call and what you’d like them to do next, then at least you’ve got a shot. Jay: Yeah, and I think it’s probably a, discussion more for a future podcast, but things have changed dramatically over the last, say, 15 years. It used to be people expected a voice phone call. We get almost zero results now, in our business with the return voicemail. All of the results come through the return email or the return text. And now, I find it’s easier for people to get back to me because they respond right when they see that text. But it makes it harder to define, you’re not in person, they’re not hearing your voice, and so now making sure they’re going to think what you or believe it and do what you want them to do, you’ve got to be able to condense that down and share that message in a powerful way, in fewer words. So there’s some wordsmithing needs there that have to happen. David: Yes, and the belief portion of it, I think is pretty key. And it’s important to differentiate that from the think portion. And what I mean by that is if I want you to think that we should do business together, it needs to go deeper than that. You need to believe that it’s really in your best interest that we do business together, because if you just sort of think it, if it sort of flies by in your brain, then it can just as easily fly out. But if you’re able to instill some level of belief, even just a little, a little bit of a belief, which is more than a thought, it’s actually a strong consideration that this might be in my best interest, then you’ll be a lot more likely to get the return call, get the return communication, whatever it is. So it’s a small distinction on some levels, but it’s a really deep distinction on others. If nothing that you convey in your communication, instills any sort of belief in the other person as to why they should take the action that you’re requiring in the third step or requesting in the third step, then it’s not at all likely they’re going to take that action. Jay: Yeah, I imagine like for example, if you in promotional products are trying to get somebody to believe something, I would think what I want them to believe is that the longer they wait, not using your promotional products, the longer they’re not going to experience the benefit of the sales and the growth that those things can provide. If I can convey that, I’m guessing for you that would be a win. David: Yeah, that’s an excellent example of a belief system that we would like to be able to install in other people. That it is absolutely in their best interest to do it, and if they’re not doing it, that in some ways it could potentially be harming them. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Particularly if those things are true. We’re not just looking to try to make things up to manipulate people into responding to us. If what we’re offering actually has value and has the ability to help the other person, and we don’t create that belief, we don’t convey that belief to them, then we are doing them more harm than we’re doing to ourselves. Because they don’t get the benefit of what it is that we could help them with. Jay: Yeah. And so being lackadaisical, that’s probably not going to help. Are there any tips or guidelines on how you can really identify that thing? Because I’m asking myself, “okay, what do I want my potential clients to believe?” I don’t know if I know the answer to that question. So spending some time on just that could be very valuable. David: Yeah, literally if you grab a sheet of paper and you write, “Think” at the top, “Believe” in the middle of the page, “Do” near the bottom, and then say, okay, what is it that I want to accomplish in my next communication? And when you’re reaching out to a lot of different people with a similar message, for a similar purpose, then this becomes that much more critical. Because every call that you make without doing this decreases the likelihood that you’re going to get the result you want, because you haven’t defined the result you want. I mean, yeah, you know that you want them to call you back, but you haven’t identified what you want them to think about that, what you want them to believe about that so that they will actually take the action that you’re requesting. Jay: Yeah. And then what’s probably going to happen, because you haven’t done that, you’re going to sound desperate and like you’re begging. And that is, that is the worst place to come from in a sales call. David: Yeah. Or that you’re careless, that you’re just, “oh, I thought I’d give you a call.” Like I have nothing better to do. When you convey that sort of a message Into somebody’s voicemail, particularly if that’s somebody who’s busy, who actually has things that need to get done to improve productivity and make things happen, and move things forward in their business. They’re going to listen to that. I’m going to say, I don’t have time for this, Jay: Right. David: But if that same message conveyed a thought that resonated with them, a belief that would motivate them, and then a call to action that would actually happen. Now you’re using exactly or at least roughly the same amount of time to leave that voicemail message, but improving your results and your responses dramatically. Jay: Yeah. And it’s a legitimate place where you can use the phrase game changer. It’s often overused, but this is a process, right? So you may want to do some A/B testing, I think. You’re not going to nail it the first time. But it’s another place, and we talk about this very often, tracking the messaging that you’re using and seeing which types of message are most effective. Because if you’re not doing that, you’re not going to know when you’re really hitting that sweet spot or not. David: Exactly. And if you have the ability to track your most recent calls, your last 10, 50, a hundred calls. If you’ve been doing the same thing on those, how many of them got a return call? Say you made a hundred calls and three people called you back, that’s a 3% rate. If I change the approach, if I incorporate the TBDs, what does that do? Does it convert it to 6%? Maybe it converts to 8%? Does it convert it to 20%? Or does it reduce it to zero? Any of those things are possible, depending on what it is we’re conveying in that message. It could make it better. It could make it worse. But if you do this, if you test it, as you’re talking about, an A/B test. The A test was what you did before. The B test is what you’re doing now for a certain period of time. You’re tracking those results. You’re comparing it. That gives you the answer. It gives you the answer better than any guru, than any marketing Sherpa, whatever it is that’s going to tell you because the market always votes with their wallets. Or in this case, they vote with their phones, whether or not they’re going to call you back. That’s what tells you the answer. So it’s very easy to define once you’ve got it set up. Not always fun to implement. Not always easy to implement. Probably easier than it seems, but once you do it and you’ve got those numbers, now you know. You don’t have to wonder. Hmm. I wonder if that would work better. You know. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the most important part. That’s the difference between just shooting stabs in the dark or conveying a message of, you know, “Hey, I’m just your friend,” instead of somebody who has a product that can change your business or improve your business. So how do people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. If you’re looking to initiate more conversations, improve your communications with people, get a better response to your emails, your voicemails, your phone messages, anything you’re doing in that regard, then let’s have a conversation. Our Total Market Domination course is all designed to get you better results from what you’re currently doing. Jay: Fantastic. David, thank you so much for sharing your information today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Improve Your Communication to Get Better Results? If so, check out a few ways we can help you grow your sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Choosing worthy clients for your business means making decisions about whether or not a prospect deserves your time and attention, whether they’re worthy of follow up, and you are bound to make some mistakes in that process. When you do this, you have to recognize that some of that is going to come with the territory. You may make a wrong decision that will cost you some business down the line. So you have to weigh that against quality of life issues. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing choosing worthy clients. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you, David. It’s such a pleasure to be back on again. And once again, I love this topic. I feel like, personally in my experience, there is a tendency to believe that you have to take every client. And you know what? In some businesses that is true, you’re going to take every customer who comes through the door. In other cases, you can be more selective and it could make your life a lot easier. It can make your business a lot better. David: Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I thought this would be a really good topic, because I believe that in many businesses they don’t even consider the idea of worthy clients. I think that in many businesses we feel like, okay, we’re going to serve whoever we can serve. We want to take whoever comes through the door, and we just want to serve them to the best of our ability. And while that is noble, it’s not always great from your own standpoint, from your own business standpoint. And I wish this was something that I knew from the beginning, but it was not. As most things, we learn it the hard way and this is no exception. At some point along the way, the idea of pursuing worthy clients, choosing worthy clients, tracking down worthy clients just really started to appeal to me. When I started using that term with some of my clients, they were like, “wow, that never even occurred to me. And what do you mean by worthy?” Things like that. So we can dive into all of that in today’s podcast. Jay: Yeah. I think that there are some things that we hear over the years and they start to sink in. We just don’t ever challenge ’em in our mode of thinking. Like I think of the customer’s always, right. I’ve come to believe. No, no, that’s just not true. Do I want to do everything to satisfy the customer? Yes. Yes, I do. But there are customers who can never be satisfied or I can’t provide what they want. So, no, they’re not always right. I love that we have these discussions. Let’s start off with this word worthy. What in your mind is a worthy customer? David: Well, I think we have to decide that for ourselves, what we determine to be a worthy prospect or client for ourselves. And some of that can go back to what you talked about, in the customer’s always right or the customer’s not always right. But you can have a customer that is absolutely right about things and you can have a good relationship with them, but they may not still be a worthy client if they are taking up more time than they are costing. So if they’re not really focused on buying from you to the extent that you need them to in order to be worthy of your time and attention, it may be something as simple as that. And in those situations, I’m not suggesting, okay, well you’re just going to bag all these people. If you’ve got a relationship with someone and you like the relationship you have and you’re okay with it, then you can deem that prospect or client worthy. You can say, “all right, well, I like dealing with this person, therefore they are worthy of my time and attention.” But for me, I believe that’s where it starts. We each have to decide. Is this prospect or is this client worthy of my time and attention? Because obviously our time is the most important asset we have, and when we fail to recognize that, we can invest a lot of it, we can spend a lot of our time on prospects and clients who are not worthy of our time and attention. And it could go back to what they’re buying from us or not buying from us. It can also get down to personalities. If they’re rude, obnoxious, belligerent, then they’re unworthy in a lot of cases to do business with us. And I think sometimes as salespeople or as business owners, We don’t really look at it that way. We think, well, we have to be worthy. We have to grovel and try to get their approval and all that sort of thing. And I don’t really think it’s like that. I think it certainly has to be a two-way street. Because anyone that we decide to do business with also has to decide to do business with us. They have to decide if they think that we are worthy of working with them. But that’s their job. Our job is to determine if they are worthy of working with us. And to me that simply means being proactive about your choice of prospect and your choice of customer. Now, you can’t always know that right away with a prospect. You can’t know if they’re going to be a worthy client. But as you interview them, as you have conversations with them, as you qualify or disqualify them, you can make some judgments. You can make some decisions pretty quickly on whether or not this person seems to be a good fit for you and for your business, and whether or not you want to decide they’re worthy of doing business with you. Jay: Yeah, you brought up so many points there. I hadn’t really thought about, just like the time to revenue ratio, right? Because I grew up in the restaurant business, so we knew what our food costs should be. We knew what a plate of food should cost, we knew what our overhead should be, those types of things. And so that’s really easy to quantify. But in businesses where there’s a sales cycle, you know, those types of things, it’s a lot harder to quantify. Well, how much time did I really take to close this sale? And then what is my time actually worth? Just that thought process, just that equation can be so powerful. And I also think taking the time, maybe just get out a pad of paper, if people still use pen and paper. I don’t know, I haven’t for years. But get that out and just write down, what do you think your worthy customer is? How much time should it take to close a sale? What type of revenue should you expect from them? What should the communication look like? Those types of things. David: Yeah. And once again, making the decisions that are most important from your standpoint, for your business, for your coworkers. For me, I think people being friendly, people being nice. People being willing to engage? Willing to engage, willing to have conversation, that could be right at the top of the list. Because if they’re not willing to have conversations with you, then nothing’s going to happen. There are people who you can have a great conversation with, and then they will just never take or return your phone calls again. When you determine that that’s happened, when you’ve determined that you’re interacting with someone, or you’re trying to interact with someone, who is no longer willing to communicate, you really have to determine your tolerance for pain and “how long am I willing to continue to do that?” I know that over the years for myself, that timeframe has gotten shorter and shorter and shorter. Whereas in the early stages, you know, you pursue people to the ends of the earth. And now, you know, as I recognize the value of my own time, as I recognize the value of my coworker’s time, I don’t want them wasting time on people who are not worthy of our time and attention. So a lot of it could really start with that. Are they even willing to engage? Are they willing to communicate? Do they seem reasonably friendly, personable, able to interact with us? And if those things are positive, then, are they qualified to buy? Do they need what we have to sell? Do they have the money to buy what we have to sell? And are they willing to work with us to buy it? So those are all qualification questions and that really goes to a whole different topic when we get into the topic of qualification procedures, and all that sort of thing. But just identifying the fact that there are prospects out there, some of whom are worthy of your time and attention, some of whom are not. And so a lot of our job in the early stages is discernment: deciding worthy or unworthy? And then following through on that. Jay: Yeah, just having that mindset. I mean, I think there’s going to be a lot of people listening, like you said at the beginning. I’ve never even thought of these terms. I thought I was just supposed to deal with everybody. You also said tolerance for pain. I know of customers, like when I look down and I see the caller id, and it’s that person, if I’m going, “oh man, you know, I don’t want to pick up this phone.” Sometimes it’s easy to ask yourself, am I worthy? And I don’t think you’re saying we have to get rid of unworthy customers. I think we have to assess what we’re willing to do to continue to maintain that relationship. I think back, and I’ve actually had times where I’ve picked up the phone to a customer who’s taking more time and I said, listen, this is what I can offer you. If that works for you, great, let’s continue the relationship. But if it doesn’t, maybe you should find somebody else because I can’t. You can bring somebody into the worthiness zone. I know. I’ve done it. David: Yeah, I think that’s very true. I also think that when you have a situation where you’re looking at your phone and you’re dreading answering it, if you at least have this in the back of your mind now, that there are worthy clients and there are unworthy clients, if somebody’s causing you to cringe when you look at your phone, you have to decide, “okay, does this make this person unworthy of my time?” Jay: Yeah. David: And if the answer is yes, then you make the appropriate decision. If it’s not quite that bad. Again, you make the appropriate decision for you. You stick with them or you decide to trade them in for somebody who is going to be a better fit. And we can use words like that, better fit. This isn’t a good fit, that type of thing. Worthy, definitely sounds judgmental. Jay: Yes. Yeah. David: And so that’s part of the reason I like the word, and it’s part of the reason that I don’t like the word. I don’t like the word in the sense that it’s not about judging people. It’s about judging someone’s worthiness to do business with us. Right? It’s about judging the validity or the likelihood of a good relationship. And we all have to do that. We all have to do that every time we meet someone. We decide, “is this the type of relationship I would like to pursue?” And if the answer is yes, we pursue it. And if the answer is no, we can make that decision to not pursue it. But again, I think particularly for salespeople who think “I have to sell anyone with a pulse, anyone who can fog a mirror,” this could be a bit of a change in approach. Jay: Yeah. I love that you make a distinction between is it judgmental ? Because you’re really talking about it from your point of view. You’re not saying this person’s a jerk or an idiot, or anything like that. What you’re saying is, for my business to keep going and to do our best, is this somebody who we want to have a relationship with? I think that’s an important distinction because I know people who like will put in their CRM system, they’ll make notes like, this person is a complete, dot dot dot, you know what? And you’re jading other employees towards that person. Maybe you should rethink about your process, about how you’re going to classify them, so that it doesn’t turn into a situation where somebody who could be a good customer or who could be moved into that worthiness zone, we’re guaranteeing that they’re not worthy because our systems are just judging them, instead of judging how good they are for us. David: Yeah, and that is such a great point. Because when you think about the fact that when you are making these decisions about whether or not a prospect is worthy of your time and attention, whether or not they’re worthy of follow up, you are bound to make some mistakes in that process. And so when you do this, you have to recognize that some of that is going to come with the territory. You may make a wrong decision that will cost you some business down the line. So you have to weigh that against. Quality of life issues. Jay: Yeah. David: Whether or not it would be worth it for you to cultivate this person to come along and to become the type of person that you would like to have as a customer. And again, if you’re willing to do it, you should absolutely do it. But simply by keeping that term in mind, and again, if it sounds too judgmental to you, you can come up with a different word for it. But the advantage of it is that if you look at your phone and you dread the call, if there’s a particular customer that you’ve been servicing for a long time, that you’ve been thinking about possibly trading in for another one ,then just asking yourself, is this person worthy of my time and attention? Answer it for yourself. You get to make the call. Maybe you decide that they’re all worthy clients. That every single person that you ever come in contact with is worthy of your time and attention and worthy of your focus. You can absolutely decide that. But we’re not judging people here. We are judging their ability to buy from us, their ability to interact with us, their ability to utilize our products and services correctly, so it’s going to benefit them. You know, there are people who I’ve talked to who have been interested in joining our Total Market Domination program, but based on the answers to the questions that we’ve asked them, we’ve said, “listen, I can’t really recommend this to you at this point.” Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And here’s why. And we’ll tell them why. We’ll recommend other solutions for them. And to me, that’s actually being conscientious. It’s not about saying, okay, we’re just going to take your money. It’s about saying, if this makes sense for you, if we really believe we can help you, we’re going to tell you that. And if we’re not sure we can help you, we’re going to tell you that, too. Because the one thing we don’t want to have happen is we don’t want to take people into the program that we’re not confident we’re going to be able to help. And so to me, that goes into this equation as well. Is this person at a point where they can benefit from what I’m offering them? If the answer is yes, then by all means it sounds like it’s a good fit. They’re absolutely worthy clients, worthy of our time and attention because we can help them. If we can’t help them, then at that point, I think it’s our duty to disqualify them. Jay: Yeah. And it benefits both sides. And I also think it depends on where you’re at in your business cycle. I mean, early on to pay the bills, you are probably going to take everybody regardless of how much time it takes. And then as you grow and progress, hopefully you can become more choosy. It’s a great place to be as a business owner. Great discussion, David. How can people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call, register for a call with myself or my team, and we can walk you through it. If this is something that interests you, if this is potentially a focus of yours or even if it’s just something you want to consider. If you’d like to start today, looking at the opportunity to attract, qualify, and convert the type of clients you want, more worthy clients, if that sounds good to you, then schedule a call with us. We would be happy to do that. Jay: All right. I love it. Thank you so much, David. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Start Choosing Worthy Clients? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

To leverage the law of attraction, you have to get beyond the book and the movie. If you’re feeling stuck in your business, ask yourself this. “Am I really clear on exactly what it is that I’m building here? And to the extent that it’s not coming together, how’s your vision? Are you very clear on what that means? David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the truth about the Law of Attraction. Now, this applies to business, it applies to life. If you’re familiar with the movie and book The Secret, there’s been a lot of talk about this concept. The Law of Attraction. It basically says that we attract into our lives the people and circumstances we need, based on essentially the vibes that we’re putting out. Jay: Well, and I was just sitting here thinking, I must not be putting out very good vibes. David: I’m sure it’s not that. But… I think sometimes when people get into this mindset, they can get frustrated. Because if you think that all you have to do is really want it and it’s going to come to you, it’s not quite the whole story. And I think the movie and the book called The Secret probably caused some people some problems with this. Part of it is because a lot of that movie was based on a book called The Science of Getting Rich by Wallace Wattles. If you read that book, you recognize that there’s a lot more to it than just trying to attract with your mind. I mean, you actually have to follow up. You have to do some things afterwards if you want to get the results you’re actually looking for. So I feel like what they did in the book and the movie was kind of a disservice to the law of attraction, which I think can be valid, if you follow up with it. Jay: Yeah, I’ve always kind of felt, talking about this, that it’s more about a change in mentality than it is that you’ll speak into the universe and the universe will grant you this wonderful thing out of the kindness of its heart. That because you’ve said these things, it’s just like setting a goal. Right? And so, when you hear things spoken, when your mind hears them, when you speak them with your mouth, it’s different than just thinking about them. And so, over time, I think it changes your behavior. That leads you to the thing that you, quote, spoke into the universe. David: Yeah, I believe that entirely as well. I think that when you are focused on a goal, when you’re focused on trying to using the law of attraction to accomplish something in your life… When your mind is going in that direction, it is a lot more likely to get you enthused about it, get you thinking about it more and get you taking action on it, which ultimately is what is going to lead to the success. Now one aspect of it that I think is really important, on the front end of that, is that you have enough belief in what it is that you want to accomplish, that you continue to look for the ways to make it happen. Because if you don’t believe you can do it, obviously you’re not going to do it. I think that’s pretty much a given. If you don’t think you can do something, if you don’t think you can accomplish something, then you will very likely not take the actions necessary to make it happen. That’s not about law of attraction, it’s about human nature and inevitability. So in those circumstances, it’s kind of a given that you won’t succeed. But if you’ve got the consummate belief in what it is that you want to do and what you’re pursuing, then in a lot of cases, it will allow you to start to see the things that will make it possible. So when people talk about attracting people and circumstances into your life, I believe there is truth to that. But I also think a lot of that might’ve been there to begin with. When you’re aware of it, you’re going to be more likely to see it. If you’re looking for something, you’re going to be more likely to find it. Then you’ll take action on it. And that’s when the law of attraction actually starts to pay off. Jay: Yeah, I really like that you’re building awareness. Because you’ve spoken these things and you’ve kind of made these mental goals. Whereas before, if you hadn’t taken the time to even assess what you want and talk to yourself about what you want, kind of make these mental goals, then when that person enters your life or that opportunity arises, you’re not going to see it for what it is. Because you haven’t planned ahead, you haven’t made a mental note that that’s specifically something that you wanted or needed. David: Right, you’re not tuned into it. And, you know, the mind has this particular activating system that many people are aware of. It’s the part of your brain that notices the things that you’re interested in. A common example is if you just got a certain kind of car, or if you’re looking at a certain type of car and thinking about buying it, chances are you see it all over the road now, because it’s now in your mind, so you see it and recognize it. So, there’s a little bit of that with law of attraction. But the primary thing that I think is important for anyone to consider as they’re trying to accomplish things in their lives and in their businesses is that the idea, the goal is a great beginning. We’ll be talking about this in future podcasts, but then ultimately, it’s what comes from that. The ideas that we get. The things that we take action on. That’s ultimately going to help us to get there. Jay: Yeah, and I’ve always felt like this is the core of the law of attraction. That it’s very important to not just think about something. That you attach benchmarks to it, you attach follow up to it. Maybe you work backwards from that thing, that you don’t just put it to chance. If you work towards that thing then first of all the odds of it happening are going to be much greater and you’ve gone out, and you’ve taken it for yourself anyway David: Yeah, and I know we don’t normally get too woo woo in these podcasts. And I’m not looking to do that today. But I think there’s been so much talk about the law of attraction over the years that it’s at least worth having a discussion about. People may think they’re doing everything they can to accomplish their goals. But they don’t realize that there may be some steps that are missing. There’s a quote from St. Augustine that says, Pray as though everything depended on God, work as though everything depended on you. And I think that’s sort of a different take on it, but it covers kind of the same thing. If you take responsibility for what you’re looking for, and I really love what you mentioned, about the idea of those benchmarks, because if you’ve got something that you want to accomplish and you’re keeping track of each benchmark along the way, then you will be more likely to see the people and circumstances that are already there that will allow you to get to the next benchmark. I think that makes the idea of the law of attraction seem more real. When you just have your eye on the goal and you’re not really thinking in terms of all the interim steps in between, you can really miss out on a lot because you’re looking for this and right now you’re only ready for this. Jay: Yeah, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time studying highly successful people, Elon Musk, Bill Gates you know, very, very successful people, and none of them sat around and waited for anything, right? Mark Cuban, and even after they have found incredible success they didn’t say, okay, got what I wanted. They continue to work aggressively every single day. And I think about what would I do if I had that kind of money? Would I continue to work? Or would you find me on a beach somewhere? You know, this is a mentality, it’s part of them. It’s their love. It’s their passion. I think it has very little to do with money or even the law of attraction. David: I agree. that’s the result of sort of doing the things that you’re good at and the things that you love exceptionally well. When you do that and you’re able to impact enough other people, and I think that’s a key component that’s often missing, is that they’re great at what they did and they pursued it with passion. But what they were pursuing was able to impact enough other people, that they were able to generate the result. They were able to generate the revenue, which is essentially the reward for being able to serve or service enough people so that it comes back to you like that. Jay: Yeah. So I think it’s about, you know, kind of thinking about those things that you want to achieve, creating a plan to get there and working as hard as you can, to achieve that success. David: Yeah. I know personally, the times in my life where I was really focused on a particular goal, especially business, we’re talking business here. I have an idea for something. You have an idea for a business or you have an idea for a product. You have an idea for something. And when you believe in it enough, and when you’re passionate enough about it, It just seems to almost take on a life of its own. You sort of know what to do next. You see the opportunities and you take them because you know how it fits in. And pretty much every major success that I’ve had in business has rolled that way. A lot of times when you’re just sort of trying to slug something out and you’re trying to figure it out and things aren’t coming together. I think some of it has to do with the vision. Either the vision isn’t clear enough of exactly what it is that you want this thing to be, because you have to have that first. Just like building a house, you have to know what it’s going to look like. You want the blueprint before you start nailing boards together. So you need to have a clear idea of it first, because when you’ve got that clear idea, then it becomes a whole lot easier to build. Jay: Yeah, it’s so true. I mean, I’ve been caught kind of in no man’s land where I kinda believe in what I’m doing, but I’ve got these other things and I just am kind of scattered waiting to see which one is going to take root. And that’s always been an issue of mine is can I really find that thing and just stake my claim and say, this is it. And I’m going to push forward no matter what. That’s hard for some people to do. David: Yeah, saying “I’m all in on this.” Oh, there’s a great book. Is it Essentialism? It’s got an illustration and the illustration is basically a circle with a bunch of lines coming out of it, going in all different directions. It’s a bunch of short lines, arrows pointed out from the center. And it’s like when your attention is divided, you’re doing a lot of little things. You’re not really accomplishing anything. And the way you want to do it is you want to have the circle, and then one line coming out in one direction. This is the thing I’m doing because then you’ll get traction on it. When you’re doing a lot of different things, you’re not really completing anything. When you’re doing one, you’re able to complete it. So I think for people who are watching and listening, if you’re feeling frustrated in your business, ask yourself, you know, am I really clear on exactly what it is that I’m building here or the thing that I want to build here? And to the extent that it’s not coming together, how’s your vision? Are you very clear on what that means? How many people is it going to take? How many hours a day are you going to need to work? Who else needs to be involved? What sort of technology do you need? All these different things. Because as you start to examine the different components of it, then you’ll start to get the ideas, particularly in the areas that might be holding you back. Because if one of these elements that is necessary to the success of the project is missing, then you’re not going to get there. So at that point it becomes about finding bottlenecks, which is the subject of a whole other podcast. Jay: Yeah, I think that’s such great advice. How do people find out more? How can you help them with this process? David: Well, if you go to TopSecrets.com/call, you can schedule a call with myself or my team. And we’ll be happy to just talk you through sort of where you are with your business, where you’re looking to be in terms of visibility, sales, and profits. Because when you get those three things lined up, everything comes together a whole lot better. And once again, we’re not really talking about just, you know, the “I can do it, I think I can, I think I can” aspect of this. We’re talking about sort of the down and dirty, step by step, here’s what we need to do to help get you from here to there. So if that makes sense for you, TopSecrets.com/call. Jay: All right, David, as always, it’s a pleasure. Thank you so much. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Leverage the Law of Attraction? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

The trouble with targeting in business is that a lot of people don’t do it well. It reminds me of that line from one of the Godfather movies where Michael Corleone says something along the lines of, “if history has taught us nothing else, it’s that you can get to anybody.” Right? And that is now true in terms of advertising. You can get to anybody, but what is the cost? David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I discuss the trouble with targeting. Welcome back Jay. Jay: Hey, David, once again, I’m excited to be here and I’m really excited to get your feedback on this, because when you first said we’re going to talk about the trouble with targeting, I kind of thought in my head, well, isn’t that what I’m supposed to be doing? Aren’t, aren’t I supposed to be targeting? David: Oh yeah. Yeah. We definitely have to target. We definitely need to target. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with targeting. The trouble with targeting that I was thinking about is that a lot of people don’t do it, and a lot of the people who do do it maybe don’t do it as well as it can be done, and as a result, they don’t get the results they’re looking for. Some people think they’re targeting and they may be doing that, but if you’re not targeting to the point where it’s resulting in better quality prospects, better quality clients, and conversations that lead to sales, then you might need to hone in a little bit better in terms of your targeting efforts and your targeting approach. Jay: Yeah, so as I think about targeting, there’s a lot of work to be done upfront, right? If you’re going to target somebody, you’ve got to know who the target is. And that can take a lot of research on your own part. A lot of experimentation, a lot of looking at past contacts, how those contacts came into your funnel, and understand those things before shooting arrow in different directions. The odds that you’re going to hit anything that looks like a target are pretty slim. David: Exactly. And I think a lot of the reason for that is, many people think of the term targeting in terms of what you said, targeting’s like aiming at something. But it’s not just aiming at something, it’s having an idea in advance of what it is that you want to hit. And if we think in terms of some of the more common ways of targeting. Some people don’t even get this specific about it. But if you look at the different ways to target, I mean some people target geographically, I’m going to target everybody within a certain geographic area. If I’m a realtor and I’m working in a particular neighborhood… Great example of geographic targeting. Some people target by industry. If I’m selling B2B, I might target a particular group of people in a particular industry. I might target companies that deal with technical kind of things, or I might target education, or I might target finance, right? So that’s a different way to target, by industry. I can target by need if I’m selling something like whatever, insurance, and I’m targeting people who need insurance. Okay. They could be wherever they are. Now, it’s harder to do that when you target by need because so many people might need it and you might have to pare things down a little bit to be able to get to the people that you want. In the promotional products industry, where I do a lot of work, people can sell by program specialty. In other words, people who are looking for a specific result. If you’re selling to people who are looking to increase safety in the workplace, then you could potentially be selling them a safety campaign, a safety program. There are some people who target by product specialty. There are different companies who might be looking for a specific kind of product. There is a company that’s been in the promotional products industry for ages. You’ve probably received pens from them in the mail, and they’ve been doing that for years. There’s a cover letter. Very often the pen will have your company name on it, and they’ll send that to you in advance. And then there was just a sheet of paper and a place where you could say, all right, if I want 200 of these, I send a check, I mail it in. And that was an example of targeting by product. So you can have a very successful business that does just that, right? Targeting by a particular product. And then some combination thereof. I could target a particular niche, a particular group of people. I could target financial institutions within a certain geographic area, or I could target a certain type of industry with a specific need. So, industrial companies that need safety programs. So lots of different ways to slice it, but if you don’t think through your options, then a lot of your targeting can just leave you confused. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. But I think it’s important to know, I mean, never in the history of the planet, have we had the ability to target like you can today. If you know what you’re looking for, you talked about geographic areas, age groups, people who listen to a particular radio station, people who shop at a particular store. Never in our history has there been the ease and ability to target people. There are people whose profession, and think about this, their profession is SEO, search engine optimization. That’s all they do is they look at your company, and who your targets are, and they figure out how to reach that specific group. I think about what we did 20 years ago for targeting, and I’m like, how did we even do that? I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are just going in and they’re kind of faking it until they make it. SEO is complicated and you have to first know your target, your needs, and then you have to know how to turn that into keywords and other things. It’s a real process, real powerful, but a real difficult process many times. David: Right. And when you’re talking about something specific like that, like SEO, yeah, it’s really a specialty. And even targeted advertising, if you’re looking for a certain group of people on Facebook or whatever, you’re right, it’s easier than ever to target those people with paid advertising. But for salespeople who are in the field who aren’t doing SEO, and they’re not doing targeted ads, and they’re looking for prospects, looking for people to sell to, and still, to some extent, having to do it rather manually, then at least having a clear idea of who you’re after gives you a much better chance at potentially reaching some of those people. Jay: Oh yeah. And we talked about this in the last podcast. If you know who to target, you’re not making a hundred calls today. Maybe you’re making 20 calls today and you’re increasing your close rate. It is hard for me to think, you know, that there are still so many people out there picking up a phone and dialing it and cold calling. David: Mm-hmm. Jay: But it is still a regular part of businesses everywhere and it’s a successful part and can be successful. But if you don’t know who to target, you’re going to be wasting a lot of time. David: Right. Which brings us back to the title, the Trouble With Targeting. If you’re not doing it well, no matter how you’re doing it, whether you’re trying to do it with SEO or paid ads. Because there are people who really want to get the paid ads thing dialed in, and many of them are still spending enormous amounts of money to make that work. And as the algorithms get smarter, theoretically it gets easier, but it also then becomes more expensive because more people are doing it, which drives the costs up. So even those who now understand that, yeah, you can probably reach pretty much anyone you want to reach with targeted ads you might not be able to afford to do. It reminds me of that line from one of the Godfather movies where Michael Corleone says something along the lines of, if history has taught us nothing else, it’s that you can get to anybody. Right? And that is now true in terms of advertising. You can get to anybody, but what is the cost? What’s the cost in time? What’s the cost in money? And are you going to be able to do it? So a lot of that has to do with what you’re charging for your product, what your profit margins are. If it costs you a couple hundred dollars to acquire a new customer, you have to make sure that whatever it is that you’re selling them provides enough of an adequate profit margin to cover the cost of the product, to cover the cost of the salesperson, the overhead, and whatever the advertising is. So as long as the math works, you’re in great shape. Jay: And not just the math. I was thinking as you were talking about this, let’s say you set it up right. You figured out who to target, you’ve got your keywords in, or whatever your advertising method is going to be, and you have actually reached the face of your target. Well, what if your ad doesn’t appeal to them at all? So you’ve managed to hit your target, but it just bounced off of them because you didn’t have the right message. David: Yep. Jay: And that’s a problem we see a lot with SEO, with cold calling. Are you saying the right message? And I know when it comes to SEO, that’s why you do A/B testing, right? You send out two different versions of the same ads, see which ones resonate, see which ones don’t. And you have to keep track of that regardless of what your effort is. Because man, it’s really sad if you have managed to figure out how to reach that target, but you didn’t manage to figure out how to get them interested. That’s a real waste of time and money. David: Right, because you may not even know that you reached that person if the messaging’s off. This really all goes back to something we talked about in a podcast quite a while ago, the MVPs of marketing and sales. What’s the message that you’re communicating? Which combination of marketing vehicles are you going to use to communicate the message? And who are the people or prospects that you need to reach? So if you’re getting to the right people, people who could be doing business with you, and you’re reaching them through a marketing vehicle that gets to them, like SEO or like paid ads, and your messaging is off, the only thing you’re going to do, the only thing you’ll succeed in doing is alienating those people faster. You got to get those three things dialed in or you’re toast. Jay: Yeah, one chance sometimes. Now, the other part of that is we know sometimes you have to get in front of their face six or seven times before they will actually call you. But it needs to be six or seven times where you are resonating. If it’s six or seven times with a message that they can’t stand. I mean, I think about the Super Bowl. And some commercials are hilarious and some are terrible. And they’ve spent all that money on that one spot that for the next three months, I see that exact same commercial over and over and over again. And if it’s a bad commercial and I hated it the first time? I’m going to hate it even more the second or the third or the fourth or fifth time. So I mean, did that money, did those millions of dollars really work for them or not? David: Right. And what do I think of the company? What do I think of what they’re selling? Because there are some places that have advertising that’s annoying. But if I like the place, if I’ve had a good experience, I will very likely continue to spend money with them. And I might say to them, “Hey, your ad is terrible.” But on the other hand, if I’m not familiar with the place and the advertising alienates me, then the likelihood that I’m even going to give them a try is pretty much slim to none. Jay: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I like the title, the Trouble with Targeting. Everybody listening, is probably doing some type of targeting, but have you really taken the time to assess who your target is? How are you going to get to them? And when you do get to them, are you going to have the right messaging? And if you haven’t looked at each of those three steps at the very least, then your system is probably going to fall down. David: Exactly. And ultimately the better we target, the more money we will very likely make, as long as we have the qualification procedures in place as well. But that’s a subject for another podcast. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. How can people find out more, David? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call. That’s TopSecrets.com/call. If you’re having trouble with your targeting, if you can’t seem to get to the people that you need to reach, let’s have a conversation. We’ll figure it out. At least have a conversation about and see if we can figure it out. If we can help you, we’ll let you know that. If we can help you, we’ll let you know that, too. Sometimes it’s just good to have somebody else to talk to about a situation that you’re running into. Somebody who’s actually done it, who knows what they’re talking about in this regard. So once again, if you’d like to have a conversation, we are happy to do that. Just go to that web address and set up a call. Jay: I love it. David, thank you so much for spending time with us today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Target, Attract, Qualify and Convert the High-Dollar, High-Value Clients You Need? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow their sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Particularly in the early stages, breaking through your sales plateau may just mean doing more of what you’re doing. But generally, at some point, we hit a plateau that is created by the fact that we can’t run any faster. We can’t do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes, we need to get some help, or something needs to change fundamentally in the business in order to get us to that next level. Identifying the Real Causes of a Sales Plateau David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing the idea of breaking through your sales plateau. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It’s so good to be here again with you David, and as always, I’m very excited about this topic. I know businesses that hit these thresholds. Breaking through can be a monumental task to get to the next level and they’re not sure how to do it. Is it marketing? Is it adding new products? I think that’s what a lot of them try to do. They’re like, well, let’s add 10 more products to the lineup and then we’ll do it. And oftentimes that can just make the situation worse and not better. David: Yeah, it’s true. Most businesses, I think it’s safe to say, at some point run into a sales plateau. They hit a level of sales and they can’t get past it. I believe in small businesses this is particularly true, where you’re just working and pushing and you’re trying to get to that next benchmark. And you just can’t reach it. There are thresholds in small business, getting to your first hundred thousand in gross sales and then your first 250, and then you hit 500 and then a million and then 2 million and going from there. In the early stages, you can generally do pretty well, like to get from a hundred thousand to 250 is often easier than it is to get from a million to 2 million. But most of us, at some point, will encounter some sort of sales plateau. You get there, you see it, you’re targeting it, you’re working toward it and you just can’t seem to hit it. Breaking through becomes a challenge. You May Not Know How You Got Here And so it’s really just a matter of getting stuck. It’s like, I feel like I’m stuck. I’m here, I need to be there and I’m not sure what to do next. Jay: Yeah. And I wonder how much of it is that they’re not really sure how they got to the first sales plateau. I mean, they may think that they know, David: That’s true. Jay: But it could be something completely different. And this could go back to something we talked about in a previous podcast: following up with your customers. Find out why they purchased, how they feel about their purchase. Are they returning customers? Are they not returning customers? So if you didn’t understand why they bought in the first place and how they felt about that purchase, it’s going to be hard breaking through that next sales plateau. David: It is, absolutely. And the biggest hangup that I see for most people is not knowing, “what do I do next?” And as you indicated, people get to a certain point in some cases, they’re not sure how they did it. What’s that referred to as? Unconscious competence? Jay: Mm-hmm, David: Where I’m doing things and it’s working, but I’m not even sure of what I’ve done. So I haven’t gotten around to building a system around it, to put that into place so I can replicate it. But there’s also the idea that what gets me to here will not necessarily get me to there. Right? So breaking through to level one won’t necessarily get me to level two. When Hard Work Doesn’t Result in Breaking Through That’s not always the case, particularly in the early stages, you can do more of what you’re doing to get to a higher level. But generally, at some point, we hit a sales plateau that is created by the fact that we can’t run any faster. We can’t do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes. Or we need to get some help. Something needs to change fundamentally in the business, in order to keep breaking through that sales plateau and get us to the next level. Jay: Yeah, something that can be very hard for people, delegation, right? Letting go of your baby, right? David: Yeah. Jay: That you worked so hard on. And now you’re going to trust some new employee with some new aspect. It’s not easy to hand those things over. But often, if you’re not willing to do it, you’re not going to grow through that next sales plateau. Refusing to Delegate Can Lead to a Sales Plateau David: That’s true. And some people don’t want to. Some people are like, okay, look, I don’t want to have employees. I’m comfortable with the way things are. And if they are, then that’s fine. If they want to get to another level of sales though, then it’s really going to be a lot more about processes. If you’re determined not to get additional help, at least in terms of human resources, then you’re going to have to figure things out in terms of either technological resources or being able to do more of what you need to do so that you can keep breaking through to get to the levels you want to reach. So in looking at getting stuck, at hitting a sales plateau that you can’t reach, one of the first things I would suggest is that we ask ourselves, okay, what’s causing this? Am I just not able to get enough customers? In other words, could I handle more business, but I either don’t know how to do it, or I’m not successful in doing what I know? Is Your Breaking Through Problem Not Enough Customers? Or Too Many? Or I’m doing what I know and it’s not working? Because if that’s the issue, if it’s just a matter of getting more clients, there are very specific things that we can do to make that happen. On the other hand, if we’ve got a lot of clients and we feel like we can’t keep up with the clients we have, then that is certainly going to prevent us from breaking through to the next level. Unless we can either leverage things so we can get more from the clients we have without having to add more or we figure out how to get some help, depending on our willingness to want to do that. Jay: Yeah. And, an important one, can we take our existing clientele and get them to come back? We’ve talked about this before, right. You know, David: mm-hmm. Jay: It’s going to be easier to get an existing customer to repurchase if they were satisfied and if that’s your type of product. Some products are one and done, and that’s just the way it is. Breaking Through the Sales Plateau with Existing Clients But if you can have a product where they’re like, I like this, I need more of this. I want to come back for this… having systems to remind them to come back, drip, programs and those types of things, to get them to be a return customer. That could be the biggest source of your income. And you’re not spending extra money to acquire new customers for breaking through that next sales plateau. David: Exactly. And when we get to a point where we know we want to be somewhere, and we’re not quite there, identifying what that biggest bottleneck is, is one of the most important things. There’s a big distinction between the idea of potential, where I could potentially be, and what’s keeping me from getting there. And a lot of people focus on the idea of adding more potential. Well, maybe if I add this or I add this, or I add this, I add all these different things for the potential of getting to where I want to be. And instead, to get past that, what they really should be looking at is “what is the bottleneck?” Fixing the Primary Bottleneck that Creates a Sales Plateau What is the single biggest contributor to the fact that I’m not breaking through? What is the one primary thing that is preventing me from getting past that? Is it the people? Is it the customers I’m interacting with? There are a lot of businesses who, if they want to reach their sales levels, they’re going to have to jettison some customers who are not spending as much money with them. A lot of times, low-dollar, low-profit clients who take up a lot of time, who are very demanding, can take up valuable time that could be spent with people who understand and appreciate better, the value that you bring to the table. So if it is a situation where you don’t want to add staff, then you’re going to have to be extremely selective, going back to another point we raised in a previous podcast, about the people that you bring in the door to begin with. The prospects and clients that you choose to interact with. Jay: Yeah, and in that case, you’re going to have to have a system to identify what type of customer they are, classify them and then figure out is this the type of customer that we want? Letting Go of Poor Quality Clients If it is, then you’re going to want to target them and focus more on them. If it’s not, then you’re going to kind of want to let them slowly disappear so that you can focus on the ones that you want. David: Yeah. And I think for a lot of us, if you’ve been in business for any length of time, you have a favorite customer or two. And so a really easy exercise you can do is take a look at those customers and say, okay, what do they have in common? What is it that I like about them? Is it their attitude? Is it the way they communicate? I mean, communication is huge. One of the very first things that will tell you if you’ve got a problem client is their unwillingness to communicate. If they’re not communicating the way that you need to have them communicate in order to fulfill an order or get the work done, that is a relationship that’s really in trouble. Breaking through becomes much harder. Communication Problems: The Early Warning Sign In hindsight, every time I’ve had, in business, a relationship that didn’t work out, it almost invariably came down to a problem with communication. Where the person that I was trying to help was not willing to communicate enough to allow me to do that. And in today’s society, in today’s economy, we refer to the term “ghosting,” where you’re trying to reach somebody and they’re not getting back to you. And that’s a bad sign. When people do that to you consistently, you need to ask yourself, okay, is this the type of client that I really want to continue to interact with on an ongoing basis? Or am I better served to find clients who are open, and willing to engage, and responsive, so that we can do the things that we’re setting out to do together? Jay: Yeah, I love that. And also the customer who is responsive to your suggestions and ideas. I love the question when there’s been an issue, “what can I do to make it right?” I just love this question. Right? Let them decide. But we all know that there are customers who, no matter what you do, they just want to be mad. They just want to be angry. They just want to vent. And they’ve already decided they’re not going to use you. You have to be able to know at some point where you’re like, okay, I’ve offered three or four solutions. They’re not biting on any of them. They just want to continue to rail on me. When a Customer Won't Be Satisfied—No Matter What You Do I mean, at that point, you just have to cut bait and run. Because you just don’t have the time in your day to deal with those type of people. David: Yeah. I mean, you have to do the best you can. If there’s something that you did wrong, you need to do your very best to make it right. Do what you feel is appropriate. And if that’s still not good enough, and if you’re not able to do whatever it is, they’re suggesting. Yeah. Then you’re going to have to figure out a way to wrap that up as amicably as possible. But also recognize that you can do as great a job as you possibly could for a person. And for whatever reason, if they’re not happy, they can still go online and tell a hundred people about you. Jay: That’s true. David: Right? Jay: That’s true. What Clients Say Can Impact Your Sales Plateau David: So there’s this balance, particularly now, where you want to do your very best for the clients that you’re working with. You want to make sure that they’re satisfied as much as you possibly can satisfy them. But as you indicated, there are people who are just not going to be satisfied no matter what you do. And in those situations, sometimes you just have to cut your losses and take your lumps. And very often people will recognize when they hear people like that complaining, that “oh, okay. I think this is kind of what they do.” And as long as you’re not doing that with many people. I mean, if that happens once or twice, and you’ve got people over the course of a career where you’ve had a situation like that, that’s not going to cause a problem. Now, if a lot of people are reacting to you like that, then you got to really start looking at what you’re doing, what you’re putting out there and how you’re responding to them. Jay: Yeah, asking yourself those difficult questions. But you know, we’re talking about sales plateaus and breaking through a sales plateau. You mentioned, I mean the ideal is to have a customer review system where people can see all these five-star reviews. Reviews as a Sales Plateau Breaker I am amazed at how much I use those, even though I know that a lot of them, I don’t know how true they are, but it has still become part of my life to look at those reviews. And if there are negative reviews right off the top, I’m moving on to the next person. They’ve lost me instantly. So that’s an important part of this process. David: Yeah, absolutely. I know when I’m online, I definitely look at the reviews and I try to make sure there are enough of them. Jay: Mm-hmm David: If there are three of them and they’ve got all five stars, I could be skeptical. If they have hundreds of reviews or thousands of reviews, and they’re all five stars, I’m more inclined to believe it. Now that might be able to be done with bots, I don’t know. But I tend to have more confidence when there are actual comments there that look legit. And when there are enough of them. One of the things that we have on our website is what I call our Wall of Fame, which is clients that we’ve worked with, that we’ve helped to grow their sales and profits. And they’re at TopSecrets.com/results. Using Testimonials for Breaking Through If you go to that page, there are dozens or more. There are videos. There are audios. There’s text. All the people who have recently commented on experiences they’ve had so that when somebody’s considering doing business with us, I can say, Hey, listen, take a look at our Wall of Fame. I would love to see you on here. Right? So they can look at it from two standpoints. Not just, these are people who have been helped by this company, but also, wow, I think I’d like to be on there too. I’d like to be on the Wall of Fame. I’d like to be another happy customer, getting the kind of results that these other people are getting. And that also goes to the idea of community-building and interacting with people the way that we need to interact with them, to create the results we’re looking for. So from the standpoint of breaking through your sales plateau, it’s sort of all of the above. It’s about saying there are things that are preventing me from getting from here to there. It could be the quality of customers I’m interacting with. Or the quantity of customers I’m interacting with. It could be my own internal structures, systems, staffing. Zeroing In on Your Primary Obstacles So identifying certainly the top one, but the top two or three primary obstacles, and then systematically tackling those, is really what’s going to get you there. Jay: Yeah, I love that. But having an awareness of it. Talking about it. Discussing about it, you know, in your company and identifying those things. And, that’s what you’ll help them do as you workshop this through the week. David: Exactly. In the Inner Circle this week, we’ll be discussing how do we start breaking through our sales plateau? And in situations like this, it’s great to be able to interact with somebody who has a very specific situation, where they’ve been stuck at a certain point for a long time. And within a matter of a couple of questions, we can very often help them to pinpoint the area where they’re stuck so that they can apply some focus on that and start to get the results that they’re looking for. So if you’re not already a member, be sure to go to TopSecrets.com/ic. If you’re already a member, just log into the Inner Circle website and we will see you inside. Jay: Well, I love that. Real actionable advice that can make a difference, right away. David: Exactly. Jay: All right, David, it’s been such a pleasure. Thank you. David: Thank you, Jay. Need to Start Breaking Through Your Sales Plateau? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will continue our discussion about the AI Approach to Multiply Your Sales. This is part four in our series, and today we'll be talking about learning, segmenting, and the Three Ds. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David. I really, really enjoyed this. I know I’ve said that in previous podcasts, but it’s true. After each one, I’ve gone into my own business and I’m like, okay, I got to apply this and apply that because these conversations are of such value. So I appreciate your time. I love this. And hopefully it’s been helpful to everybody else. David: I’m glad, I feel the same way, and I’m really looking at this almost like a mini-course. If people were to put together these four episodes and say, “How much of this stuff am I doing in my business?” You can probably implement some things very quickly that can probably help you get some great results. Jay: 100%. David: All right, so let’s do the quick review. And again, what we’re talking about here is we asked AI what will help you to multiply your business because that’s been a focus of our conversations recently. AI came back with some different responses, and then we’re talking about what AI says and how we’re able to help implement those things in business with our clients. And so let’s just recap. Number one was refine your target audience. Number two, develop a compelling value proposition. Number three, optimize your marketing channels. That was our first episode on that topic. In episode two, we covered points four, five, and six. Number four was enhance your customer experience. Number five, implement a referral program. And number six, leverage the power of content marketing. In episode three of this series, we hit utilize upselling and cross selling strategies, which was number seven. Analyze and optimize your sales funnel, which was number eight, and invest in customer relation management software, CRM, which was number nine. Now we’re going to be doing 10, 11, and 12. Eleven and 12 are really bonus because originally I asked it for 10 and then I realized that doesn’t break out well if you’re doing three in a podcast. So I went back to the AI and I said, give me two more. And it did. So we’ll be talking about numbers 11 and 12 in this podcast as well. So number 10 in the list of things that AI says will help you to multiply your sales is: 10: Continuous learning and adaptation. Stay updated with industry trends, attend relevant workshops or conferences, and be open to adapting your sales strategies to meet changing market demands. Well spoken AI! Continuous education. It’s a good call! Jay: It is, and some professions actually require it. But again, that continuous education is often on a service or a specialty or things like that. It’s not really on customer service or the technology or things like that. I feel like in that regard, so many of us are a hamster on a wheel. You know, we’re just trying to keep up with what today is giving us. We’re putting grease on the squeaky wheel and we don’t have time to really think about staying up on, you know, all the latest trends and those kind of things. David: Yeah. And a lot of people just don’t like continuing education, because they feel like so much of it is platitudes. It’s like, I already know this stuff. I already know it, right? But knowing what to do is very different than knowing how to do it. And that’s really what I’ve been trying to differentiate in this series of podcasts is that, yes, these are great statements. Continuous learning. That sounds great. But what are you learning? Are you learning things that you can implement immediately? Are you putting in place processes that will allow you to start getting results right away so you can gauge those results and then adapt, change, or tweak the process as you go to make sure that it’s working for you? So once again, we’re focusing on all the little details that make these general recommendations profitable. Jay: You know, I don’t know where I get it. I think I get it from my dad, but I am on a never ending quest to make things more efficient. I am always looking for the next software, the next device, the next system. I’ve done it since I was 15. My first job was in a burger barn at an amusement park. And I was watching how they put everything on the grill and what they would do is they’d cover the whole grill with burgers And then they would flip them all at the same time, and then they would pull them all off at the same time, and while they’re preparing them, the grill is sitting there empty. And so the line would move, and then it would stop, and I’m like, this is crazy. Put down two rows, wait a second, put down two, put down two, and at 15, I changed the whole thing. I’ve been doing that stuff my whole life, so I I love the tech. I love the next thing. And I’ll spend weeks and months finding the right thing knowing that it’s going to improve my business for years to come. David: Yeah, and that really goes to the point. The words that the AI used , it said continuous learning and adaptation. Jay: Yes. David: And what you’re talking about there is adaptation and implementation. Adapting the system to be able to get the result that you want Jay: Yes. David: So that everything gets better for everybody. Beautiful thing. Jay: Yeah, KPIs, Key Performance Indicators, that’s kind of what we use nowadays. And we’ve talked about this in previous podcasts, understanding every aspect of your business and knowing how you can influence it and adapt it. Because you can’t adapt, if you don’t know the reality of what’s going on. And I’ve worked for so many companies where management has no clue what’s happening on the front lines. And so we’re asking them, we’re begging them to adapt. Or they have software built by engineers who aren’t on the front line and we’re pulling our hair out because it doesn’t answer any questions. It makes life harder for us. David: Right. And unfortunately, a lot of it boils down to not knowing what to do and not knowing how to do it. “Yes, this is a problem, but I don’t know how to fix it. I don’t have time to think about how to fix it. Therefore, soldier on, keep moving, keep working. Good luck with that.” And so much of this, and even this point, continuous learning and adaptation is about identifying those small hinges that swing the big doors. And so much of what we do with our clients is about doing just that. Finding what is a small and obvious fix to a problem that could have been plaguing a company for literally months or years. You fix it in 10 minutes with a one sheet piece of paper that says, “Do it this way,” and they implement it, and they immediately start to see better results. So, I think in terms of, okay, this is what AI suggests, this is how we end up getting it done. So that’s number 10, continuous learning and adaptation. 11. Targeted Marketing Campaigns. Develop targeted marketing strategies tailored to specific customer segments. This approach ensures that your marketing efforts resonate deeply with your intended audience, leading to higher conversion rates. Once again, a lot of buzzwords in that sentence. A lot of really good recommendations in that sentence, but a lot of confusion too. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Can I brag for a minute? David: Please do. Jay: I want to brag for a minute. So a lot of people know that I’ve just recently started an accounting firm that focuses on day traders and they’re taxes. And we’ve spent over a year and a half with my current company and my last company working on keywords to make sure we get the right leads from Google advertising. And David, in the last four months, I have not had one lead that is not right in the strike zone. Now, think about that. Think, I mean, that is unbelievable to me. That, and they, you know, we’re in constant contact with the company that we use. And every month they’re like, okay, how many leads were outside? What do we need to adjust? And I’m like, just keep pitching ’em, man, because they are right there. And the beauty of that is, all we have to do is adjust the volume. Right? Certain times of the year we crank that volume up, and certain times of the year we crank it down. And, wow! When we have the secret sauce, I mean, everything else is just gravy at that point. David: Exactly. And what you’re talking about really ties back to point three, earlier in our conversation, which is about optimizing your marketing channels. Jay: Right, right. David: When you’re able to do that, and you combine that with what we’re talking about here in number 11, which is targeted marketing campaigns, it’s a double whammy. Because now you are getting to the right people through the stuff that you’re doing with your SEO. And your communication is better, which is something we also talked about in the first episode in this four part series. And now, when you talk about targeted marketing campaigns, to me what that means is you’re taking the communications that we’ve perfected, creating value in the communications like we talked about in a previous episode, and now you’re sequencing that communication. That’s how we describe it to our clients inside our program. You’re sequencing your communication. You’re putting together a series of messages that go out in a specific order, in a specific timeframe, so that you’re getting the information in front of them when they need it most. To me, a targeted marketing campaign is about doing that. You’re getting the right message out to the right people at the right time. Using the right targeted marketing vehicle. Jay: I love that. Sequencing the information. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I think understanding that in first contact, they might not understand your product or the need for it. But we all know if they see you a couple times, you know, what is it? You used to hear they have to see you seven times, you know, a billboard, a TV ad, or whatever that is? Meeting them where they’re at. Instead of trying to force them to be where you want them to be. It sounds to me like a great way to go. David: Yeah, no question. I remember, I think it was in the Guerrilla Marketing book, he was talking about the fact that somebody had to be exposed to your message nine times before they’d be ready to buy. And at that point, I extrapolated for myself. I said, well, what if they only see one out of every three messages I put out? To me, that means I need to do nine times three, 27. I need to get out to them 27 times before they’re going to be ready to make a buying decision. And that’s really the essence of what sequencing communication is. A lot of times we feel the need to try to tell everybody everything up front, before they even know who we are. And their eyes glaze over and like, Oh, this is too much. This person’s too full of hot air. I’m moving on. And when you sequence your communication properly, you’re dripping it out a little bit at a time. You’re giving them a little bit this time and a little more the next time, a little more the following time. And each part of it reveals a different aspect of your approach. A different aspect of the way that you do things, and the benefits that you bring to them. And if number one didn’t completely resonate, maybe number two will, and maybe number four will, and maybe number seven will. And the ones in between, if it’s good, useful information, and it’s creating value for them, they’ll still be happy to see it. They’ll be happy to look at it. But then, when you get to the ones that really resonate with them, they’re going to respond. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you said they don’t know who we are, but I would also flip that. We don’t know who they are yet, right? And so, like you said, we’re kind of dividing their possible interest into this sequencing. And hopefully, at some point, we’re going to land on who they are and what their needs are in that moment. David: Exactly. And so much of it really becomes fun when you’re taking an approach like this. And I use the word fun a lot when I’m talking with my clients. Because I figure if what we’re doing is not actually fun, we’re not doing it right. Because if it’s miserable, if it’s a big old slog and we can’t stand it, Let’s face it, they’re not going to do it. But when you’re able to make it fun by taking the appropriate action with the appropriate people at the appropriate time, everything gets a lot easier and a lot more fun. Jay: Absolutely, absolutely. David: All right, so number 12, this is the last one on our list. And this is: 12. Data Driven Decision Making. Leverage data analytics to understand customer behavior, preferences and buying patterns. Data driven insights empower you to make informed decisions, refine your strategies, and optimize sales processes. Many words. Jay: Yeah, and again, how do you extrapolate that out into your own business? I know this is something we work on constantly. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a point where you’re like, “okay, got that one done,” right? It’s got to be constant. David: Yeah, and once again, going back to the idea of simplification, which is a really big part of what we do with people, boiling it down to its essentials. Data driven decision making, to me, and this is what I refer to as the 3 D’s at the beginning of this podcast, data driven decisions, right? To me, that means that you are making your decisions based on the right information, the actual information, not what we think might be right, not what we feel, oh, I feel like I should do this. What does the data say? What’s working well? What are the things that we’ve done in the past that have worked well? What are the things we’ve done in the past that have not worked as well? How can we continue to replicate the things that we did that did well? Do adaptations on those, to be able to continue to move that needle forward. How can we avoid the mistakes that we made in the past based on what we’ve done and the responses that we’ve gotten? To me, that is the essence of data driven decision making. And if you look again at the AI description, leverage data analytics to understand customer behavior. That just means looking at what are the customers doing based on what you’re sending out? Leverage data analytics to understand customer behavior, preferences, and buying patterns. Okay, so that’s all the same. Data driven insights empower you to make informed decisions. Right, your decisions are now informed. They’re not just decisions, right? And then it says, refine your strategies and optimize sales processes. It allows you to do all of that. So, I would argue that this one, data driven decision making, is essentially a combination of all of the above. Because when you’re implementing the things that we talked about over this series of podcasts, and you’re gauging the results, you’re tracking it down, you’ve got the tracking sheets or however it is that you’re keeping track of what’s going on, and you’re making the decisions based on, not what you think is going to work or what you think might work, but what actually is working, everything becomes a lot easier. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Can I give you a bad example of not using data? David: Sure, I love bad examples!. Jay: So, I worked for a national pizza chain. I’ll give you a hint, Pizza Pizza. Still family owned, even till today. And one day the daughter of the owner came up with this brilliant idea that people wanted bigger pizzas. I don’t know if you remember this. It was called Bigger is Better. So they forced every franchisee to go out and retrofit all of their ovens. Buy new pans. The whole thing probably cost five grand per business to just do this. And they of course marketed behind it. Guess where all those pans are? They’re sitting on top of the walk in refrigerators. Because there was no data, it was not driven by anything more than a feeling. And it was just the most ridiculous effort I’ve ever seen. And that’s some of the problems you can get into with a family run business, because you are making gut feeling decisions instead of looking at the data. David: Yeah, I’d love to say it’s just family run businesses, but wow, New Coke. Two words, right? Jay: Yeah. David: This kind of thing just happens everywhere. And some things just seem like a really good idea. Hey, wow. If they like this one, they’ll probably like that one when you say it out loud. Sure. It seems reasonable. And if the marketing was right and if the people wanted it, then that would have worked, but we just don’t know. So data driven decision making is also a big one. All right. So in terms of sort of wrapping this up, because we’ve been doing this now over a period of four podcasts over four weeks. I feel like we touched on a lot of really good topics. I feel like we were able to dive deep in terms of some of the how, of how to do these things. And I’m hoping that the people who have actually paid attention through each of these episodes got some really solid ideas on specific things they can do to grow their sales and profits. If that’s the case, and if you’d like to have a conversation about how we can help really just Implement this stuff inside your business, go to Topsecrets.com/call. Let’s have a conversation. See if we can help. If we can, we’ll let you know. If we can’t, we’ll let you know that too. There is zero pressure on these calls. It’s about identifying the primary areas where you need help, providing recommendations on what you can do and how you can do it, and then saying, all right, if you want to do it by yourself, you can do that. If you want to do it with us, you can do that, but you have the option. So hopefully that makes sense. And if you’d like to do it, TopSecrets.com/call. Jay: Yeah, I love it. And I’ll just kind of add my feedback on this series of podcasts. I’ve learned a tremendous amount. I’ve applied a bunch. But one of the things that stands out to me, is that you don’t have to do it alone. And I think sometimes we see it as weakness, right? I should be able to run this all. I should be able to do it all. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But there are people who have gone before you. There are people who’ve spent, David, how many years have you spent doing this and refining this and, and talking to customers? So, I mean, it’s just a great service. Again, just speaking out loud about it has made such a difference for me. So, I’m a huge fan of what you do and I hope people will recognize your sincerity, that it is just a call, and you do have a very strong desire to help. And you help a lot of people. David: Well, thank you. And we never try to push anyone into our programs. All we’re looking to do is we’re looking for the right fit. If you are a smart, focused, motivated business owner, and you are determined to get from here to there, then we probably want to work together. If you’re not good with making decisions, if you’re kind of iffy or wishy washy, then it’s probably not going to be a good fit. And in many of the calls, we can get two thirds of the way through the call and recognize pretty early on it’s not a good fit. At which point we’ll say, yeah, I don’t think we can help you. You know, maybe you can try this resource or that resource. So, it’s really not about us trying to sell you into anything. If we can work together, great. If we can’t, that’s perfectly fine too because we’ll know, right? We’ll have the conversation, and we’ll both know! You’ll know, “oh, it’s not a good fit,” I’ll know, it’s not a good fit. And you get closure, which is beautiful. If you’ve been thinking about scheduling a call and just haven’t, there’s no closure, right? Have the call. It’ll be a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Either way, it’s great. You’ll have a great experience. We’ll have a great conversation, and I hope you do it. Jay: Yeah, and listen, there’s no reason to be a salesperson when your product is great, and yours is. So, David, I love our conversations, and thank you so much for your time today. David: Thank you, Jay. Ready to Multiply Your Sales? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

St. Isaac's words fall like a plough upon the heart. He does not speak of religion as ornament, nor of spiritual life as a gentle addition to human comforts. His vision pierces through to the marrow: the Kingdom of God is hidden within, yet it is veiled from us by attachments, by the clamor of outward concerns, by the fog of our restless desires. To find God we do not roam heaven and earth, chasing visions or “phantasms.” We are told simply to purify the soul, to drive away cares foreign to our nature, to cultivate humility and chastity of heart. In that stillness, the mysteries of God shine forth. Renunciation, for St. Isaac, is not a dour rejection of creation but a necessary loosening of chains. The soul addicted to “ease,” to possessions, to the endless commerce of sights and sounds, is like wet wood; it cannot ignite with the fire of divine love. Only when stripped, when made poor and simple, can it burn. Poverty, humility, stillness; these are not negations but preparations, making space for the light that transforms. It is a paradox: what seems like loss is the doorway into inexhaustible gain. Isaac teaches us that prayer and reading are not separate paths but one movement of the soul. Reading feeds prayer; prayer clarifies the mind and makes reading luminous. When a man stands in prayer, Scripture rises up within him like fresh springs. It silences distractions, fills the heart with recollection of God, and sometimes overwhelms prayer itself with the sweetness of divine astonishment. Such moments are not learned from books, not borrowed secondhand, they must be tasted. Without the labor of vigilance, no one will know them. Without knocking with persistence, the door remains closed. Yet the fruit of such striving is nothing less than transfiguration. The soul that bows before the Cross in vigil and compunction finds fountains of sweetness rising from within; unexpected, uncaused by effort alone. Joy surges, the body itself trembles with divine consolation, and prayer ceases to be labor and becomes gift. This is the hidden fire of the Kingdom, the mystery known only to those who hunger and thirst for God above all else. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:06:25 susan: what page? 00:11:46 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: No I don't. I stole it from you 00:37:47 Ryan Ngeve: Father this seems to imply that external converse has a great effect on the internal internal self. How does this relates to the role of the thought as the source of all temptation 00:38:09 Jonathan Grobler: After decades of severe addiction to digital entertainment, silence has become an exceptionally difficult thing to achieve. It is truly a difficult thing to break away from. 00:44:22 Thomas: Will intellectually accepting something eventually lead to belief of that thing in the heart 00:44:40 John Burmeister: Reacted to "After decades of sev..." with

St. Isaac the Syrian leads us into a subtle yet decisive truth about the spiritual life: to taste of God rightly, one must be weaned from the world—not only from its visible distractions and passions, but also from the premature grasping of spiritual visions and insights. Renunciation, for Isaac, is not merely the abandonment of external goods; it is the letting go of everything that agitates, excites, or exceeds the soul's present capacity. Like a child given honey before it can digest it, the soul that seeks lofty knowledge or noetic vision without purification risks sickness and collapse. This is why Isaac insists that silence and stillness are the true companions of renunciation. The soul must be emptied and simplified, freed from the clutter of worldly images, memories, and concerns. Only then can she begin to perceive, not in phantasy, but in the true theoria that God bestows upon the humble and pure of heart. Silence, for Isaac, is the protection of this delicate work. It guards the soul from shameless curiosity about mysteries that surpass her strength, and it teaches her to receive revelation with reverence, not presumption. Stillness, likewise, is the arena where renunciation becomes fruitful. By cutting off the “exterior war” of the senses—sight, hearing, chatter, possessions—the soul is fortified against the subtler inner warfare of thoughts. In this solitude, prayer and Scripture reading form the new conversation of the heart, replacing worldly recollections with the remembrance of God. Thus renunciation is not negative but deeply positive: it creates space for mercy, for purity, for true prayer, and for the divine astonishment that halts the soul in stillness before the mysteries of God. Isaac reminds us that almsgiving and voluntary poverty open the heart to boldness before God, but stillness is the summit—where the soul is no longer divided, tossed about, or burdened, but rests in the radiant quiet of God's presence. Renunciation, then, is not escape but transfiguration. It severs us from the false sweetness of the world and teaches us to taste, in measure, the true sweetness of God. It bids us to be content with what is given, to wait in silence for the moment when grace itself will lift us beyond our measure, and to remain always in the humility by which mysteries are revealed. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:05:39 Bob Čihák, AZ: Our current book is “The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, revised 2nd Edition” 2011, published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/products_id/635 . This hard-covered book is on the expensive side but of very high quality. 00:12:38 Bob Čihák, AZ: P 147, halfway down page 00:26:41 carolnypaver: Page # ? 00:26:51 Andrew Adams: 148 00:26:59 carolnypaver: Reacted to "148" with

Synopsis of Tonight's Group on The Ascetical Homilies of St Isaac the Syrian Homily 4 paragraphs 23 and following: St. Isaac teaches us that true spiritual perception, when granted by grace, is marked not by outward signs of exaltation, but by tears, peace of the senses, and the silence of the body before the living God. Such tears are not emotional outbursts, but a baptism of compunction — torrents flowing from eyes opened to behold reality as it is in God. They cleanse the heart, heal the passions, and usher the soul into a stillness that surpasses every worldly delight. His counsel guards us against curiosity and presumption in the spiritual life. Just as honey, if consumed in excess, becomes harmful, so too the pursuit of visions, lofty speculations, or knowledge beyond our measure can damage the soul. Instead, we are called to humility, patience, and silence. The mysteries of God are not seized by force of intellect but revealed to the pure of heart, to those who patiently endure the rugged way of purification. The ascetical life, then, is not about chasing extraordinary experiences but about purifying the heart through prayer, watchfulness, solitude, merciful love, and immersion in the Scriptures. Reading and prayer become companions, one feeding the other, until the mind is illumined and prayer flows with clarity. In such a state, the soul is lifted, yet simultaneously learns timidity — a holy shame at daring to draw near to what surpasses her nature. This shame, however, is itself a sign of humility, a safeguard against delusion. Thus, St. Isaac reminds us that the authentic path of prayer and spiritual knowledge is marked by sobriety, contrition, silence, humility, and charity. Tears are the sign of divine visitation; restraint and reverent stillness are its guardians. In this, the spiritual life becomes less about grasping after what is beyond us and more about receiving with wonder what God grants to the lowly. --- Text of chat during the group:   00:10:06 Tracey Fredman: https://www.pemptousia.tv/view/b/category/Programs/subCategory/saint_paisios_from_farasa_to_the_heavens__bbFSg/id/saint_paisios_from_farasa_to_the_heavens_episode_9_o69MH/lang/el_GR 00:11:23 Thomas: https://ancientfaith.us/media1 00:13:19 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 147, top of page 00:31:10 David: There is so much that delights the mind in the fathers and often heroic thoughts of doing more vigils, fasting, reading ahead come to mind. I often only am left with a superficial understanding I can't remember. I think one needs to digest slowly like food 00:32:39 David: On the negative side I watch my son's dog everytime she eats grass I find myself making the sign of the cross 00:33:02 Diana Cleveland: Fr. Can you say more what you mean by crisis of faith? Do you mean the kind of crisis that makes you question God or the kind that makes you not want to walk with God? 00:35:33 Anthony: Sometimes I want to lash out at "God" but then realize that is a false image, a mask I've imposed on God.  And then, I realize....it'll all be Ok, the false image is not the God Who loves me. 00:40:37 David: Each night I read from the psalter of St. Ephraim it seems to ground me thinking this saint speaks to my struggles. Sometimes with Climatus and Issac it seems like they have it all figured out and have unabtainum. 00:41:12 David: Mythical not obtainable 00:41:17 David: Used in business for products 00:45:29 Julie: How do you know which tears are for God and someone like me who can cry so easily reading lives of the saints and someone's sorrows etc. 00:51:16 David: I read somewhere the west seeks to capture the understanding by the intellect and the east seeks to have it revealed by grace to the nous. 00:55:02 Francisco Ingham: I've heard say that the west is the mind of the Church and the east is her heart  We need to be deeply acquainted with both spiritual traditions 00:57:26 David: The first book published in the Americas was The Ladder of Devine Ascent. I often wonder if the fruits of the west (much better at evangelical efforts) might have been they also were still breathing with "both lungs" as St. John Paul mentioned. 00:57:40 David: Sorry type Divine Ascent 00:58:27 Kathleen: Describe in your words discursive and non-discursive relative to tonight's teaching.  I know the definition but want to grasp it further. Perhaps you can provide further insight. 01:02:20 Francisco Ingham: Such a blessing to hear your thoughts on this topic. Truly edifying. Thank you Father 01:11:39 Maureen Cunningham: As 01:11:54 Maureen Cunningham: AA 01:14:17 Maureen Cunningham: Thank you 01:14:50 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you☺️ 01:15:00 Diana Cleveland: Thank you! 01:15:02 David: Thank you father God bless you and your mother 01:15:17 David: As we continue to prayer for you  

St Isaac the Syrian's words strike with such power and seek to draw us away from what we desperately cling to as human beings - vainglory. Our focus upon ourselves, our particular needs and desires, makes us gather “abominable treasures“ for ourselves that defile our hearts. But more than defiling our hearts, such a vainglory prevents us from experiencing the love and mercy of God in all of its fullness.  Thus, Saint Isaac does not hold back in emphasizing the need to purify the heart from all vainglory and pride. His words crash upon the heart like a hammer against an anvil. It is better for us to free ourselves from the shackle of sin than to free slaves from slavery. It is better for us to make peace with our soul than it is to teach about bringing peace among men. It is good to speak about the things of God but it is better for us to make ourselves pure for Him. To speak humbly and to be seen as uncouth by others is better than speaking eloquently about things that we only know as hearsay or that are writings of ink. What St. Isaac is seeking to have us contemplate is the transformative power of God‘s grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit within our hearts. It is God‘s love and mercy that transforms the repentant heart and it is that same love and mercy that transforms the world; even if it remains hidden in obscurity or in poverty. What value is there in a person preaching or teaching about God when through his negligence his soul remains sickly? What gain is there to teach others or lead them to the knowledge of God and then to fall away from hope in God? We begin to see through St. Isaac's writings how we have obscured the gospel. In doing so we have not only weakened its message but we have also lost sight of the presence of God within the sorrows and afflictions of life.  It is through the Cross that we have been redeemed and when there is fidelity and trust in the Lord, when we are humbled by life, it is then that His power is made perfect. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:19:39 Gwen's iPhone: Blessed Transfiguration  Father 00:24:55 Myles Davidson: What is the distinction between vainglory and pride? 00:27:53 Jamie Hickman: Was the hedgehog reference from John Chrysostom? Love it...just not familiar with it 00:29:24 Jamie Hickman: ah yes, thank you, Father 00:32:24 Anthony: I have a feeling St Isaac is reflecting on his short time as an active bishop, which he fled. 00:33:39 Myles Davidson: Replying to "ah yes, thank you, F..." Cassian's Conference 10.11 00:34:03 Jamie Hickman: Reacted to "Cassian's Confere..." with ✍️ 00:36:18 Jamie Hickman: Mary your vocation to purify your heart is beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. 00:45:51 Anthony: This is the difference of the frankness of a "Rocky" instead of the glibness of Apollo Creed 00:47:57 Rebecca: Sometimes a humble spirit can become a source of pride and vainglory…. 00:49:18 Rebecca: …as in the false self co-opts the experience of the ‘humble spirit'. 01:02:38 Russ's iPhone: Lewis- Pain is Gods divine megaphone to rouse us from our spiritual slumber, or pain is Gods divine drill into the human heart. 01:07:23 Ren Witter: I feel like a lot of the time, the same circumstances that can humble can also lead to intense anger and resentment. What is the difference between the person who allows themselves to be humbled, and the one who responds with resentment and anger? 01:08:55 Anthony: I plenty of times start with anger and have to put it aside.  Maybe that is humility.  Over and over again. 01:09:47 Anthony: We have to remember we are humans, not the mythical Vulcans 01:10:47 Mary

In the writings of Saint Isaac the Syrian, we see so beautifully the desert fathers emphasis on praxis; that is, how we concretely live out our faith in our day-to-day life and relationships. They knew that Christ can be lost to the mind and the heart not only through sin but also simply in the warp and wolf of day-to-day life. We surround ourselves with things that provide us with a sense of security and identity. This goes beyond material goods and includes our being driven by busyness and the pursuit of the world‘s respect of our accomplishments. We can lose time through idle chatter, laziness, and sloth. With anxious hearts, we direct our energy toward pursuing the things that we have come to love within the world; education, art, athletics, and entertainment. We are zealous for what we love and willing to invest ourselves without counting the cost to pursue it.  However, Saint Isaac reminds us of the meaning and the weight of those small moments and affairs in our day-to-day life. Do we hold in mind the brevity of our life and that it has been entrusted to us in such a way that we will have to give an account before God for how we have used the gift? Do we see the “other” and Christ within the poor or those who are suffering and alone? More often than not our minds and hearts are abstracted by the things that titillate the senses and emotions.  Thus, Saint Isaac tells us acquire freedom in your manner of life; in particular freedom from turmoil. Do not find your freedom by what simply gives pleasure and so become a slave of slaves. Surrounded by abundance and conveniences we often have the sense that we are dependent upon them. Yet we do not realize that they will never help us to acquire humble thoughts or a pure minds. St. Isaac, therefore, describes renunciation as weaning ourselves from our attachment to the things of this world as well as from our own ego. Our dignity and destiny is found in Christ Who is our hope, our salvation, and our Love! --- Text of chat during the group: 00:05:37 susan: been away  what page are we on? 00:11:58 Myles Davidson: Page 143 “Love chastity…..” 00:13:11 Una: Trouble with my sound 00:13:11 Fr. Charbel Abernethy: Page 143 paragraph 11 00:13:20 Una: Whose feet are those? 00:14:19 Adam Paige: Technical difficulties, please stand by ! ☺️ 00:14:37 Jamie Hickman: jealous! 00:29:05 Maureen Cunningham: How do you know you are killing the ego . How would you be different 00:31:33 Julie: Should I feel bad for liking  or surrounding myself with nice things 00:32:41 Eleana: I agree, the tentation when he have a spiritual life is to feel "good" and dressing to be seen or perceive as humble; it can also be false humility that I believe to be the worst pride. 00:33:07 Una: That false self can manifest in busy busy busy 00:34:15 Thomas: I've always thought that remembrance of death was about remembering our sins and that we will be judged and so forth, but Isaac says rejoicing, is this just a different aspect 00:34:44 Rebecca: “I live now. Not I.  But Christ live in me”  St Paul the Apostle 00:41:59 Jamie Hickman: The Mother Teresa story reminds me of paragraph 14: "Conduct yourself with knowledge..." -- this knowledge is intimacy, experience as you've called it, Father. She conducted herself with the love of her Love, He Who Thirsts. She really saw him thirsty there on the sidewalk, and she attempted to satiate him. 00:43:08 Joanna Martinez: There is a beutifuly done documentary film on Amazon Prime called "Sacred Alaska" about the life of small Orthodox community and their saints. The film is not free, costs $4.25, but highly recommended by way of illustrating exactly what St. Isaac speaks abot, living in the hands of God, with freedom to not have control over anything, but living by the grace of God 00:44:08 Nicholas B. Besachio: How does one stay humble when they hold a high position that comes with a lot of priviledge, nice things, and command over others. How does one direct those things toward the good. 00:48:32 Ryan Ngeve: Father what would be the proper approach about people who use busy-ness as an escape from sloth and sinful passions 00:48:51 Ryan Ngeve: To people * 00:49:36 Anthony: Replying to "How does one stay hu..."   Privilege and honor and authority includes responsibilities including in a way responsibility for souls under us. 00:51:04 Una: Interesting question, Ryan 01:02:14 Rebecca: Father, do you have any suggestions on how to ‘order the sense? 01:02:53 Jamie Hickman: Speaking of senses, I'd go to hearing. Music is more accessible, perhaps, than in ages past due to recording devices and proliferation of devices that play music. We know that faith comes from hearing, and so when much of our music is contrary to the Gospel, it is perhaps unsurprising that contemporary man struggles to believe. 01:07:30 Myles Davidson: St Paisios had only a tin can and a teaspoon as his only cooking and eating utensils 01:07:59 Julie: Silence can be scary with your own thoughts 01:08:07 Anthony: Reacted to Silence can be scary... with "

Renunciation: The word has certain connotations that are often tied to deprivation or unhappiness. What we find in the writings of the great ascetics, St. Isaac especially, is something quite different; the weaning of ourselves from the things that we are attached to in the world in order to become more attached to God, to what endures and fills the soul with consolation and strength.  For example, we are called to embrace the practice of vigils, to rise during the night to pray and thereby humbling the mind and the body. Yet Isaac does not see this as costly but rather as restorative and promising consolation in times of trial and affliction. It is in silence, often deepest during the night and free of distraction, that we are able to listen to God and receive what he desires to give us.  Likewise, we are to persevere in spiritual reading while we dwell in stillness. We let go of the hectic pace of society and the busyness into which we often thrust ourselves in order to taste the sweetness of the wisdom of the scriptures and the fathers. Perhaps more challenging, we are told that we are to love poverty. We are to willingly let go of material goods and radically simplify our lives. In doing so, Isaac tells us, the mind remains collected and is secured from wandering. We often become anxious about our worldly security and protecting what ilwe have come to possess. We become driven to spend more time focused on the things of this world than we are pursuing the life of virtue and prayer. In a similar vein, Isaac tells us to detest superfluity so that our thoughts might remain untroubled. Again, filling our lives with things, activities, work or social engagements steals from us solitude and the silence that is born from it. Surrounded constantly by the noise and the affairs of the world we begin to experience intense anxiety and depression seeing only the presence of chaos and violence that makes one question reality and the value and purpose of life.  Part of the beauty of reading the desert fathers is that they reveal to us the beauty and the dignity of the human person made in the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the blood of Christ.  Their lives and their writings fill the heart with hope in a dark world and set the soul on fire to to embrace what has been promised us by our Lord. To God be the glory unto ages of ages. Amen. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:04:19 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 143, first short paragraph, 6 00:12:49 cameron: The names again please 00:14:56 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 143, first short paragraph, 6 00:14:59 cameron: Monk and monastery 00:15:13 cameron: Thank you. 00:20:52 Myles Davidson: Replying to "P. 143, first short ..." “Honor the work of vigil…” 00:21:55 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 143, first short paragraph, 6 00:32:20 James Hickman: For years I've found myself waking up against my will, then over the years (more recently, and not always!) seeing it as a gift. But when I have an icon on my wall, I find it a grace when I lay there awake in bed and make simple prayer of the heart, simple acts. This seems valuable. I'll be ok to hear if there's more expected than this. Objectivity is desired here. Work in progress here. 00:33:05 David: I have a prayer book that has a Greek orthodox evening prayer and in the ending it says "we sing to you in the night- Holy, holy holy are you oh God, through the prayers of the Theotokos have mercy on me". Is this a practice when one begins a vigil? When I do wake I always try to say it but was not sure if it is something formal in vigils? 00:35:59 Jessica Imanaka: Several Trappist monks I know have said they don't need as much as sleep as medical science dictates. The deceased abbot used to say that prayer reduces the physical need for sleep. Whenever I go on retreat, praying the full office, I just can't sleep as much. My body doesn't want to. 00:36:13 Anthony: On waking up at night....some people say 3am is the devil's hour, so it's advisable to pray then.  I think that gives way too much focus on the devil's? Or is this real Christian tradition? 00:40:58 Myles Davidson: The noonday devil was a desert father thing 00:41:11 Nicholas B. Besachio: What does St. Issac say about demonic attacks on Faith. 00:41:26 Rebecca Thérèse: Christ died on the cross at 3pm so Satanists say a black mass at 3am, that's why some people refer to it as the devil's hour 00:42:30 Bob Čihák, AZ: Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin did a Mysterious World session # 98 on “Sleep” which I found helpful. Cf. http://jimmyakin.com/ . 00:43:45 Thomas: I have heard priests say not to pretend to be monks what do they mean by this, because we should imitate them 00:46:06 Una: Reacted to "Catholic apologist..." with

Saint Isaac the Syrian begins this homily with the words: “The soul that loves God finds rest only in God.“ This thought permeates all that is to follow. Our weaning ourselves from our attachment to the things of the world and our own self-esteem and judgment opens our eyes to the love and freedom that is ours in Christ. To see this, Saint Isaac tells us, one must engage in the ascetic life; that is, we must discipline the body through vigils, prayer fasting and the like; cultivating the heart in such a way that not only desires God above all things, but is willing to suffer every hardship for his sake. Indeed it is suffering and humiliation that frees us from the yoke of the self to such an extent that we can embrace such hardship with joy. In fact, the one who flees the futile glory of this world already has come to see something of the hope of the age to come. St. Isaac wants us to understand that our freedom from attachment to the things of the world does not merely mean our possession of riches, but rather also the acquisition of anything to which our will clings. Until this takes place, we are scattering with one hand what we have gathered with the other. All that we hold onto prevents us from rising above a worldly understanding of justice and prevents us from experiencing true freedom in our actions. We cannot show mercy to others except through what has been gained through our own labor and hardship. To sow from another man's seed is to make our actions ingenuine and hypocritical. It's a reflection of our desire to isolate ourselves from the suffering of our fellow man. What Isaac is preparing us to see is that we are not simply called to be merciful at the highest level of natural virtue or even what we would see as virtue elevated by the grace of God. Rather, we are called to be merciful as our Heavenly Father is merciful, to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. This means giving to everyone who ask of us and not expecting our goods to return to us; not merely to suffer injustice or to have our possessions taken from us, but also to be willing to lay down our life for our brother. Our mercy must be such and our love for our brother so great that even if we were to be treated shamelessly and abusively, our desire would be not to grieve our brother‘s heart.  Guided by intellect and reason alone we have already reached the level of absurdity. In the months to come, we will be shown that the mercy and love of God stretches far beyond the measures of man's mind. The love of God has the very dimensions of God Himself. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:18:47 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 141, start of Homily 4, first paragraph 00:34:05 Myles Davidson: On the subject of suffering for Christ, “contempt and humiliation with good will”… I'm reading an extraordinary book called The Autobiography Of A Hunted Priest by John Gerard S.J. written by an English Jesuit priest who survived the Elizabethan anti-Catholic police-state known as the penal times. These young English Catholic men would travel to the continent to attend seminary, knowing when they returned they would be constantly hunted and faced a high chance of imprisonment, torture and martyrdom via being hung, drawn and quartered. While the author lived to tell the tale, he did suffer horrendous conditions in prison and painful torture. What is striking about the story, is the joy and peace he often experienced under these conditions and the often profound effect he had on his jailers. A very real example of “suffering contempt and humiliation with good will”. The book is a real faith booster! 00:35:10 Ryan Ngeve: Father what makes the trope of the fool-for-Christ different from those who actively seek humiliation or other forms of false piety 00:40:18 David: The movie "The Island" has a good example of a fool for Christ who is ideal as a follower of Christ and showing humility and humor. 00:40:25 Anthony: St Gabriel of Georgia should be patron of political philosophers but he was a fool for Christ. 00:40:34 Ben: Replying to "The movie "The Islan..."

Perhaps there has been no greater or more beautiful exhortation written than Saint Isaac the Syrian's homily on temptation. This may seem to be a rather bold statement, but Isaac's words draw us into the very heart of a reality that even many men and women of faith do not see; that is, we are engaged in a spiritual warfare against the Evil One. Evil is not an abstraction or a story meant to instill fear as a means of control. Isaac speaks of it from the perspective of experience and like the other desert fathers, he stands before us as a living and breathing icon, encouraging us to run the course with courage and fidelity. In the spiritual battle, there is no Sabbath day rest; in other words, we must be ever vigilant in regards to temptation that comes to us in many forms. The only one that we must be concerned about is the temptation to which we freely give ourselves over through neglect or laziness or our attachment to particular sins. Rather, we are to take heart from and acquire zeal in our soul against the devil through the example and the histories of those who proved “allies of the divine laws and commandments of the Spirit in fearful places, and amid most grievous tribulation.”  The one in essential thing that this requires of us is that we have in our mind God‘s providence, and always to remember that he is ever faithful, and will not abandon those who trust him. This is our hope - that God is ever present to us in the spiritual battle, strengthening us, and surrounding us with a host of angels and Saints. We have a God who is set upon our salvation and who provides everything that is needed in order that we might be raised even above the ranks of angels. Our Lord has humbled himself, taken our poor humanity and its poverty, embraced it in all of its fullness and weakness in order to raise us up to share in the fullness of the life of God.  Deification is the fruit of the spiritual battle and the promise of our loving Lord! --- Text of chat during the group: 00:03:18 Fr. Charbel Abernethy: Page 138 paragraph number 33 00:12:58 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 138, first full paragraph 00:14:35 Janine: Happy birthday Fr. Charbel…60 is nothing…just wait til 70! You are still very young! 00:15:18 Bob Čihák, AZ: ..or 84... 00:19:24 Catherine Opie: Happy Birthday Fr. May your next circle around the sun be full of Gods graces and blessings

Saint Isaac the Syrian asks the question that has been put forward for centuries - “how are we to pray?”  In fact, our Lord himself was asked by his disciples to teach them how to pray as John the Baptizer taught his disciples. Within a few beautiful paragraphs Isaac opens up for us not only what we are to pray for but why. What Isaac would have us understand is that our prayer should be a reflection both of who God is and what he is revealed already in regard to his desires for us and a reflection of who we are and our understanding of our dignity and destiny in Christ. It is as if God says to us, “I became man in order that you might become God. If you did not desire to become God, you would do me wrong“. We are to refrain from asking for the things of this world not because it is wrong to do so in a moralistic or legalistic understanding of things. Rather, we are to ask for what is heavenly. At times our focus upon and anxiety about the things in this world makes our vision myopic. We lose sight of the presence of God and the life and the love that he has promised us. Isaac tells us that when our petitions to God are in accord with His glory then our honor is magnified before Him and He rejoices over us. Similarly, Isaac tells us, the angels and archangels are astonished and exalt whenever they behold one who has been made from the earth asking for what is heavenly – one who is been made from the dust asking for what endures to eternity. Therefore, Isaac, echoing the Scriptures tells us to seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all else will be given to us. We need only be humble and patient - trusting above all in the providence of God and not rush onwards to great measures before the appropriate time. “For anything”, Isaac tells us, “that is quickly obtained is also easily lost, whereas everything found with toil is also kept with careful watching.“ That which is precious comes only after striving to give our hearts to God and then we must hold onto it with great watchfulness.  What is most essential, however, is that we thirst for Jesus and that He would make us drunk with His love. Do not let your eyes focus on the delights of this world, but rather trust that God desires to give you his peace and the invincible joy of the kingdom. Simply put, “the man who desires the greatest things does not concern himself with a lesser“ --- Text of chat during the group: 00:05:47 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 135, first full paragraph on this page 00:14:39 Myles Davidson: Top of pg. 135 “Do not become foolish…” 00:26:38 Anthony: This reminds me of a quote by Henri Nouwen, that our biggest affliction is a feeling of self hatred. You shared this on Facebook. 00:30:00 Rick Visser: Is it fair to say that Therese L. was disposed to a love that went beyond the sensual-- the felt--and was disposed to a pure love that transcended the feelings? 00:32:28 Joshua Sander: Isaac's mention of us leaving "our dunghill" for the things of Heaven also reminds me of C. S. Lewis, who writes, "It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased." 00:33:53 Anna: So the desert fathers and mothers didn't have psychological tools and neurological tools to overcome things like anger, anxiety, fear and so on... did they overcome such things through only ascetic life and prayer? 00:35:58 Gwen's iPhone: It was Leo XIII allowed her to enter Carmel at a young age. 00:46:28 Rick Visser: What are vain repetitions in prayer? 00:46:35 Anthony: When we pray, should we be very specific,  or say only, "Lord have mercy as you know how"? 01:02:05 Rick Visser: Does this mean I must give up my herb garden and pray, give up the lesser things for the greatest things? 01:02:13 Eleana: lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi 01:10:01 Anthony: A Man For All Seasons,  the counsel Thomas More gives to the scholar 01:10:25 Anna: My daughter is asking... Were the desert fathers living in the desert and if so how did they find their food? 01:14:12 Myles Davidson: Desert Christians by William Harmless is a great book about how they lived 01:14:25 Catherine Opie: There are places in the desert where springs come up and monasteries are built on those places 01:15:36 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You Blessing 01:15:39 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you☺️ 01:15:47 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you!! 01:15:54 Catherine Opie: Thank you God bless 01:16:03 David: Thank you father and may God bless you and your mother

Saint Isaac for Syrian proves himself once more to be one of the most beautiful and poetic of teachers. He describes for us the nature of the human person and the fragmentation that has taken place because of sin. On the level of the flesh, the body has certain needs and will seek to satisfy them. Yet, sin often brings a disorder to this desire as well as a weakness of will.  In other words, we can begin to seek to satisfy the flesh in a sinful fashion and in a way contrary not only to Divine revelation but also to reason. The soul also is invested with its own particular nature that allows us to perceive the realities of the world around us and to understand them. This understanding, however, is not necessarily going to act in concert with the desires of the flesh. It is for this reason that we so often experience conflict within ourselves. We may see what is good and true and beautiful and yet by the weakness of our will embrace the opposite. Likewise, we may have the strength of will to embrace what is good and yet because of the darkness of our thoughts and our understanding we embrace that which does not conform to the truth or our real needs.  Due to our being in a constant state of receptivity through our senses, our thoughts can be shaped by the will of the flesh, the imagination from what we have seen or heard, our predisposition to think in a certain way where our minds are filled with inconsistencies and, finally, by the demons who wage war on us and seek to enliven the passions.  Purity of mind is to be rapt in things Divine and this comes about, Saint Isaac tells us, after a man has long practiced the virtues.  He warns us, however, that we cannot be so bold to think that we have achieved this without the experience of evil thoughts or that we are outside the reach of them while we are still in the body.  Again, Isaac is seeking to lay a foundation for us that allows us to see the inner workings of the mind and the heart. We must seek this purity of mind and struggle against the multitude of passions and the thoughts associated with them.  Isaac teaches us this not simply that we might understand it on an intellectual level, but that within it we might also find hope. The more clearly we see this the more freely we can pursue purity of mind. We can grow in our capacity to direct our thoughts to those things that are virtuous and create within the human heart a greater desire for God. It is from this vantage point that we can begin to see and enter the path that leads to purity of heart. --- 00:08:34 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 131, paragraph 15, first on page 00:14:49 Catherine Opie: Apologies what page are we on today? 00:14:59 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 131, paragraph 15, first on page 00:15:14 Catherine Opie: Reacted to "P. 131, paragraph 15..." with

Orthodoxy and Orthopraxis (right belief and right practice) are intimately tied together. All of the fathers and, in particular, Saint Isaac the Syrian want us to understand that our perception of revelation, who God is to us and what we have become in his Son through the Paschal mystery, and how we live our life are inseparable. God has revealed himself to us in a unique and distinctive fashion, and has made known to us our dignity and destiny in Christ. Therefore, having a clear understanding of our human nature, the sickness of sin and the passions that follow and the healing that takes place through Grace is imperative. Isaac pushes us to understand that virtue is the natural health of the soul and the passions are an illness of the soul that follow and invade our nature and despoil its proper health. One can see how essential this is when looking at our life in this world and the struggles of the spiritual life. We can attribute sin and the hold that passions have upon us simply to human nature. However, when we do this, we lose sight of the fact that we have been created in the image and likeness of God and that sin is antecedent to that reality. We have been created for love and to manifest this love through virtue. A faulty or incomplete understanding of human anthropology and psychology, has often been the pretext that the Evil One uses to distort our vision to the point that we willingly embrace that which enslaves us.  To understand that we have been created good, conversely, establishes a firm desire within the human heart for that which is of God. It also establishes confidence and hope in the grace of God who tells us precisely that he has come not to judge the world but to save it!  One of the beautiful things that the desert fathers would have us understand is that Christ is the divine physician who has come to heal us. He is the Good Samaritan from the gospel who takes our burden upon himself in order that we might be nursed to the fullness of health.  Again, if Isaac makes us work to understand this, we must see it as a labor of love. To grasp these truths allows us to give free expression to our desire for God and to run towards Him with the freedom of those aided by His Grace. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:01:52 Fr. Charbel Abernethy: Page 128 paragraph 6 00:10:40 Anthony: I just read that there is a "Holy Transfiguration East" in Burnsville, NC. 00:11:43 Anthony: Gotcha thanks 00:26:20 Joshua Sander: I've missed the last couple of weeks, and so you may have already explained this, but when Isaac uses the term "passions," what exactly does he mean? I've heard the term used roughly in the sense of "emotions" (i.e. anger, sadness, etc.), but does Isaac mean it more in the sense of "temptations"? I think you may have just explained this now, but in that case, could you briefly restate this? 00:30:04 Suzanne Romano: Does Isaac distinguish between original nature and fallen nature? 00:33:15 David: I found this helpful from Fr. Maximos- So, we have five stages in the evolution of a logismos,” he concluded, spreading out the five fingers of his right hand. “Assault, interaction, consent, captivity/defeat, and passion/obsession. These are more or less all the stages. While they use the same word in translation it helped me to realize the different stages in context. 00:37:23 Myles Davidson: Reacted to "I found this helpful..." with

Upon reading the beginning of this homily, one clearly gets the sense that Saint Isaac the Syrian wants our understanding of the spiritual life, who we are as human beings, and a relationship with God (who has created us in His image and likeness), to be set on a foundation that is unshakable. One must love Isaac for the effort! He is giving us eyes to see.  He began by presenting us with an image of a soul who truly abides in her nature, and so comes to penetrate into and understand the wisdom of God. Knowing nothing of the impediment of the passions, the soul is lifted up toward God and is astonished and struck with wonder. This is Isaac's starting point for a reason. He wants us to regain what over the course of time has been lost; that is, our perception the beauty and wonder of how God has created us and our natural capacity for love and virtue. Furthermore, it is not just about perception but the experience of being God bearers and temples of the Holy Spirit. It is about our deification.  What has distorted or understanding is the emergence of the passions and how we have come to view them. Isaac tells us categorically that the soul by nature is passionless. We are created in God‘s image and likeness and it is only the emergence of sin that has darken that which was created to be filled with light. Thus, when a soul is moved in a passionate way, she is outside her nature. The passions have the ability to move the soul after the fall. There's a radical communion between body and soul and with sin our experience of the world through the senses and in our desires and appetites become distorted. The break of communion with God leads to an internal break within us as human beings; a fragmentation on the deepest level of our existence. What is the nature of a soul created for communion when it pursues autonomy from the one who created her in love? Is it not only the loss of unity with God but within ourselves and our capacity to experience and reflect our true dignity?  Saint Isaac makes us work in these paragraphs and grapple to understand what he's saying. Yet, it is a labor of love; for it is upon the foundation of this understanding of our nature that we will once again be able to see the wonder and beauty of how God has created us and experience the healing necessary to reflect this wondrous reality to the world. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:17:20 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 127, paragraph 1 00:31:07 Lindsey Funair: When I hear the memories of the soul grow old, it reminds me that the soul knows not ego or attachment, it remembers only what is worthy of taking to Paradise, only that that is in Love. That is all there is once the world and self-love and other things that are not Love, is filtered from our memory. 00:31:13 Anthony: It's important to say that Isaac was born into a time and geography of turmoil and he wasn't living in comfort locked away from the outside. 00:31:43 Maureen Cunningham: Washington Carfer 00:31:52 Maureen Cunningham: Carver 00:33:02 Troyce Garrett Quimpo: This sections reminds me of St John of the Cross's Purgative Way. 00:36:11 Anthony: George Washington Carver 00:36:20 Vanessa: famous Black inventer 00:40:08 Maureen Cunningham: Yes George Washington Carver thank you , a little book I read . A Man who talked to flowers. 00:40:34 Anthony: I think when Isaac refers to philosophers he might have in mind the humors that dominate a man or the astrologers who Forcast about a person. 00:42:08 Lindsey Funair: it helps me to think of passions in this sense of Maslow's entire hierarchy, those things which are necessary to life and living and connecting with others and doing good, but when focused on directly become a distraction from the humility and obedience which place us "in" our soul and in relative connection to God 00:42:08 Manuel: How this idea that the soul is passionless by nature fit in with the opening of the Philokalia “There is among the passions an anger of the intellect, and this anger is in accordance with nature. Without anger a man cannot attain purity”? 00:44:25 Vanessa: When I went to university, I always thought the academics disciplines were centered around "explaining the world without God." 00:44:51 Anthony: I wrote it 00:44:56 Kathy Locher: What in our nature would have made us susceptible to temptation. Especially, given that we were living in Eden in God's company? 00:45:31 Ryan N: Father what would your response be to those who emphasize the importance of the body because it is equally made in the image and likeness of God ( not just the soul) 00:46:35 Myles Davidson: Reacted to "What in our nature w..." with

What is it that forms and shapes us the most as human beings? What affects the way that we perceive reality and gives form to the thoughts that we have  throughout the course of a day? Do we have any awareness of an interior life or are we simply drawn along by the flow of external realities; demands, responsibilities or forms of entertainment?  According to the Fathers and Saint Isaac the Syrian, we are in a constant state of receptivity through our senses. Part of being a human being is that we see and perceive everything that is around us; all of which give rise to a multitude of thoughts, images and feelings. Our lack of awareness of reality and of the internal life and the effect that our thoughts have upon us means that we often allow or identity to be shaped by the changing tides of the times or the constant shifting of our emotions.  In so many ways, the Fathers were the first depth psychologists. Their movement to great solitude and the stillness of the desert allowed a greater awareness to emerge of what was going on internally. This of course didn't lead immediately to understanding or transformation. However, the awareness did allow them to begin to discern the source of their thoughts, what thoughts predominate, and where their thoughts were leading them.  Thoughts can be so strong and so deeply rooted that they become habitual - as well as the actions that follow from them. These habitual thoughts and actions the Fathers call “passions” and the passions as a whole are referred to as the “world”.  Our growing capacity to acknowledge the dominant passions and to struggle with them allows two things to begin to emerge: a good transformation of our way of life and a greater capacity to understand the nature of our thoughts. Simply put, one begins to be able to measure one's way of life by what arises from within.   In this Homily, Saint Isaac is setting the stage for guiding us along a path to spiritual healing and transformation in Christ. The fruit of the struggle promises wholeness, freedom, and the joy that our sin often prevents. When we are guided simply by our private judgment or by what satisfies our most basic needs, then our understanding of things becomes very insular and myopic and we lose sight of the dignity and destiny that is ours' in Christ.  The more that we desire the life and freedom that Isaac describes above the more discover that we need to have no fear of anything. One who has tasted the love and mercy of Christ also finds emerging within himself the courage of a lion. The fear of soul that once overshadowed him succumbs before this ever-present love like wax from the heat of a flame. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:08:36 Bob Čihák, AZ: Is this the book? Amazon has: The Secret Seminary: Prayer and the Study of Theology by Fr. Brendan Pelphrey  | Apr 28, 2012 00:16:08 Mary Clare Wax: It has all the bells and whistles! Love it 00:18:29 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 124, paragraph 14 00:19:08 Myles Davidson: Replying to "P. 124, paragraph 14" “Think to yourself…” 00:20:04 Suzanne Romano: Hey Studge! 00:20:29 Stephen Romano: Hey sis  :) 00:20:47 Suzanne Romano: Reacted to Hey sis  :) with "

Life in Christ is not an abstraction and the gospel is not simply a set of teachings or an ideology. It is clarion call to “Follow Me” from He who is the Lord of life and love. We are invited to participate in the mystery of Divine Life. Just as the fathers  tell us that we are to “become prayer” and not simply engage in a discipline, likewise, we must become Christ. We must put on Him mind and our hearts must be animated by His Spirit of love.  It is for this reason that Saint Isaac the Syrian places desire at the heart of the spiritual life. There is one path that lies ahead for us – we are to long for Christ and for the life of the kingdom. Anything else is reductive; shrinking the faith down to what is manageable and acceptable to our sensibilities and understanding. It is no longer faith but a simulation or as Christ would say “hypocrisy“.  The reality that Saint Isaac places before us is the need for the healing of the soul; afflicted by sin, we are dominated by the passion. Yet because we are made in the image and likeness of God we often unknowingly reach out to grasp what is greater than ourselves while neglecting purity of heart and the need for God‘s grace and mercy. Such a path only leads to greater darkness. Sin unaddressed, like illness undiagnosed only grows worse. We must seek the healing that comes through participation in the Paschal Mystery; that is, a dying and rising to new life in Christ. We must die to sin and self in order to have the purity of heart and the depth of faith that allows us to comprehend what is beyond the senses and reason.  Central to Saint Isaac's thought is the purification of the Nous, the eye of the soul. If neglected one simply becomes blind to the presence of God and his love. The words of Christ come to mind in this regard: “the eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is  bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” To neglect such a reality is like the man who shamelessly entered into the wedding feast with unclean garments. We seek to enter into the fullness of life and love while yet immersed in the mire of our sin and clinging to the things of the world. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:13:13 susan: wish I could be there  I am a piano teacher  lol 00:13:20 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 123, paragraph 11 00:27:04 Myles Davidson: Father, a week or so ago you mentioned private revelation, many of which seem to also fit into this category (ie. fantasies of the mind). There are a plethora of so-called seers around today, many of which have been shown to be fakes. How do the Orthodox deal with this phenomena? I've heard they have a policy of keeping private revelations as just that… private. What are your thoughts on this? 00:28:12 Anthony: If Christ on the criss is the Bridegroom,  then I can see a person who has desired impure thoughts is running to be like the Bridegroom but is not "ready" to be married. Although, the Gospel does tell us to take up the cross and follow Christ,  without reference to one's state of mind or holiness. 00:37:36 Ren Witter: In my notes from the last time we did Isaac, you said that this teaching is not harsh, but practical. Sin being understood as a sickness, a person who has not yet been purified through praxis simply would not have the strength to take up the cross in such a way as to ascend to theoria. Sounds a lot like the teaching on taking up fasting beyond your strength - you'll just end up worse off than you were before. 00:44:14 Joshua Sander: My apologies if you've already covered this or if Isaac is about to get to this and I'm getting ahead of him, but how does one discern that one's own "senses have found rest from their infirmity" and that he or she is ready for theoria, especially given that temptations and struggles against sin will always be with us while we are in the flesh? 00:47:00 Nypaver Clan: What page are we on? 00:47:07 Ren Witter: 124 00:53:46 Anthony: I suspect a lot of us seekers are like St Teresa d'Avila who suffer much from bad advice until we run into clearer presentations of faith, hope and love. 00:54:15 Catherine Opie: Replying to "I suspect a lot of u..." Definitely my path

The experience of reading Saint Isaac the Syrian is something like being caught up in a vortex; not a linear explanation of the spiritual life or spiritual practices, but rather being drawn by the Holy Spirit that blows wherever It wills. It is not as though Isaac's thought lacks cohesiveness, but rather he presents the life of faith and life in Christ to us as an artist painting with broad strokes. This is especially true in the first six homilies that speak of the discipline of virtue. Isaac seems to be more concerned about our breathing the same air as the Saints. He wants us to be swept up by our desire for God and in our gratitude for His love and mercy. Our life is not simply following a series of teachings or a moral code, but rather embodying very life of Christ. We are to love and console others as we have been loved and consoled by the Lord. If our spiritual disciplines do not remove the impediments to our capacity to be loved and to love others, then they are sorely lacking.  In every way, our lives should be a reflection of Christ and the manner that we walk along the path of our lives should be reflective of His mindset and desire. In other words, we should desire to do the will of God and to love Him above all things, including our own lives. We are to die to self and sin and have a willingness to trust in the Providence of God that leads our hearts to desire to take up the cross daily and follow him. We begin to see affliction as something that not only shapes are virtue and deepens our faith, but that is a participation in the reality of redemption. We are drawn into something that is Divine and Saint Isaac would not have us make it something common. The Cross will always be a stumbling block when gazed upon or experienced on a purely natural level. But for those who have faith, we begin to see and experience the sweetness of God's love and intimacy with him precisely through affliction. Isaac would have us know that joy in all of its fullness. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:10:51 Catherine Opie: Hi there, where are we in the text? 00:12:03 Lori Hatala: pg 122 Cover a sinner... 00:13:10 Catherine Opie: Reacted to "pg 122 Cover a sinne..." with

Saint Isaac the Syrian begins his teaching with a gentle reminder that liberation from material things, that is, our attachment to the things of this world and placing them above God, is a slow process that involves great toil. Yet, this is the common order of things. In our journey, we often have to break loose of the mooring of those things that prevent us from loving. And so Isaac teaches us that righteous activity involves comprehending what God has revealed to us and then embodying it through action - praxis. Even as we make gains our memory of past sins and failures often brings grief to the soul. We shouldn't be discouraged by this, St. Isaac tells us, but we must simply allow these recollections to lead us to greater repentance and gratitude for God‘s mercy. Yet all of this is but a prelude to Isaac asking us an important question: Do you desire to commune with God by perceiving the love and the mercy that He reveals not just with the mind or the senses but through faith and experience?  Do you desire God? Do you desire Love? If our answer to this question is “yes” then Isaac tells us we must pursue mercy: “For when something that is like unto God is found in you, then that holy beauty is depicted by Him.“ We begin to see and comprehend the mercy and love of God by loving as he loves; by going beyond the limitations and the confines of our own understanding.  Such spiritual unity once unsealed incessantly blazes in the heart with ardent longing. The soul‘s divine vision, Isaac tells us, unites one to God and the heart becomes awestruck; filled with wonder at what no eye has seen or mind could imagine outside of the grace of God. The path to divine love first begins by showing compassion in some proportion to the Father's perfection. As Christ tells us, “Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect, be merciful as your Heavenly Father is merciful“ The dignity and destiny that is ours, the life and love into which God draws us should be what we pursue the most in life. To desire God, to give free reign to an urgent longing for Him brings about our transformation. Desire is our path to the Kingdom within. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:15:08 Callie Eisenbrandt: I'll take your books Father!!

As one reads the thoughts of Saint Isaac the Syrian the experience is almost like that of the disciples on the road to Emmaus: “Did our hearts not burn within us?” Isaac speaks to something so deep within the human heart that it ignites the very thing that he sets out to inflame: desire, wonder, awe at the love of God and the mystery of the Divine Life into which God invites us.  One of the great struggles that we have as Christians is that we approach the faith and the spiritual life in a common fashion.  In our reading of the Scriptures, we approach them in a reductive manner, dissecting the gospels; pulling out for ourselves bits of wisdom to help us get through life. Yet, Isaac understands that we cannot over-scrutinize the words that are written or spoken to us, but rather must immerse ourselves humbly in Divine Wisdom. Isaac tells us that those who are filled with grace are led by the light that is running between the lines. It is this humble and prayerful approach not only to the scriptures but to the faith as a whole that prevents the heart from being common and devoid of that holy power that “gives the heart a most sweet taste through perceptions that awe the soul.”  A soul that is filled with the spirit is going to run toward God, driven by an urgent longing for the fullness of life and love that He alone can satisfy. Not every soul is awakened to that sense of wonder yet it is the pearl of great price, the treasure hidden in the field, and the one thing necessary. May God fill our hearts with a holy desire. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:09:28 The Recovery Community Hub of PBC, Inc.: Hey everyone, in Christ, my name is Ian, I am only using my former workers Zoom platform 00:11:17 Myles Davidson: Pg. 116 “Just as the heaviness of weights…” 00:11:50 Vanessa: I'm in Ontario too. Blizzard is bad here. 00:12:18 Edward Kleinguetl: I lived in Toronto for a year! 00:12:46 Ben: Replying to "I lived in Toronto f..." I'm east of Ottawa. 00:14:16 Fr. Charbel Abernethy: When you desire to do something for the love of God, put death as the limit of your desire. In this way you will rise in actual deed to the level of martyrdom in struggling with every passion, suffering no harm from whatever you may meet within this limit, if you endure to the end and do not weaken.  ~ St Isaac the Syrian 00:20:34 Anthony: It appears Isaac uses "Liberty" of mind different than the Greek Fathers? 00:34:08 Ben: I remember reading "The Imitation of Christ" for the first time in my youth, and thinking, "Oh, boy, this totally demolishes everything we were ever taught about self-esteem!" 00:36:20 David: I am wondering if the Diatessaron which was the most common with Aramaic communities might have influenced idea of living the gospel instead of the legal way of the west? 00:38:06 David: St Emphrain wrote a discourse on that and I assume Issac was likely exposed where the separate gospels tend to compare and contrast and get far to analytical. 00:40:22 David: The other thing I find fascinating the Syrian fathers taught through poetry which moves emotions not just debates or arguments. 00:42:17 Anthony: Seeing the Word of God as the Divine Logos keeps us from the "fundamentalism" that makes categories of touchable and untouchable. 00:42:27 Jamie Hickman: Great podcast episode on the show Square Notes looking at Thomas Aquinas's poetry...too often he's only known by his Summas as though that's his only writing style 00:42:46 Jamie Hickman: hat tip to Fr. Innocent Smith, OP, for his contribution 00:43:11 Paisios: Next book/class should be Hymns on Paradise 00:44:14 Anthony: Reacted to Great podcast episod... with "❤️" 00:44:52 Paisios: yes 00:45:04 Zack Morgan: I feel like the over-scrupulous approach we are discussing works more towards an apologetic end than anything else.  We find it almost too easy to read the Gosepls and accept them in contrast to a world that wants to reject them, so we easily fall into the temptation to over-explain that which we have come to blieve by a gift of faith that is in contrast very simple. 00:50:04 Kate : Perhaps it is a lack of faith and trust in the grace of God and the workings of the Holy Spirit in the depths of the soul. 00:52:37 Jamie Hickman: In one of St Louis de Montfort's books on the Holy Rosary, he recounts that Our Lady apppeared to Saint Dominic and told him to preach a simple homily rather than the one he had prepared, which was super eloquent, because in his humility he would convert the souls in the church even though the academics wouldn't be impressed...apparently Our Lady told him to preach the same simple version repeatedly, which led many academics present to think less of him...I might have confused which Dominican, but I think it was Dominic and definitely it was a saint 00:52:40 Sr. Charista Maria: My experience in reading the desert Fathers has been that the purpose and heart of it all is an encouragement to strive to "become fire!" 00:56:53 lauren: Reacted to "My experience in rea…" with ❤️ 01:00:12 Elizabeth Richards: Reacted to "My experience in rea..." with ❤️ 01:06:37 David: "Virtue seen and lived inspires and virtue explained often makes others weary " was a saying of my grandfather. People were attracted to Christianity by seeing love among the followers not convincing arguments. My own path from being young and not sure of religion was seeing Christ along side me in my grandparents and parents living their faith in love and sacrifice. 01:11:20 Ben: I've thought of that... 01:12:18 Catherine Opie: ❤️

Again, already in these first paragraphs of Homily One what comes forward most powerfully in Saint Isaac‘s writing is that the ascetic life is driven by love and desire for God. More accurately, one might say that it is the soul's response to God‘s revelation of His love, mercy and compassion to us in His only begotten Son.  Therefore, Isaac can speak of things such as shame not in the sense of diminishing an individual's self-identity but rather as a veil protecting the mind and the heart for Christ alone. As one purifies the heart one begins to see with a greater clarity those things that can diminish one's capacity to love and to see that which is good in God and others. Thus, while shame mortifies us it also protects us from being led indiscriminately by our thoughts and desires.  One of the blessings that God has given to us in order to purify the heart is the scriptures. We are exhorted to have a fervent love of instruction; to fill the mind and the heart with the words and deeds of Christ. In doing so we create a new habit of mind that directs the soul toward God in such a way that we put behind us and even forget everything that is a distraction from this greater reality. We are surrounded by the noise of the world and in kind of thoughtless fashion we allow ourselves to be led away from what endures unto eternity or what is uplifting. However, when the mind is captivated by the divine word, it can be filled with such wonder that it becomes unaware of even thoughts that are associated with our basic human needs - when our last meal was or how the night has passed away so quickly. The ascetic life, therefore, is not about self perfection or endurance. Rather, it is a recognition of our identity in Christ. We are made in the image and likeness of God and by his grace and his redemptive love we are being drawn into the very life of the Holy Trinity. Isaac's homilies are an invitation to enter into the wondrous depths of God's love. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:37 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 115 paragraph 15 from start of homily 00:28:16 Jamie Hickman: Sorry, I had trouble with the keyboard...regarding the last paragraph that begins "Not he is chaste who...": just wanted to say that the saint we are reading would be guarding his own thoguhts, but I wonder: can we say confidently that he doesn't judge another? Instead, can we assume he regrets that another has fallen prey to evil one by not preserving his purity in thought, word, or action? My purpose: guarding our purity seems to include guarding us from judging others...something I struggle with for sure, shamefully! 00:30:53 Jamie Hickman: Thank you, Father

Holy inebriation! We are to become drunk with faith.  For those inebriated with alcohol there is often a loss of the capacity to think about things or see things clearly. For those inebriated with faith, there is a loss of sight of the things of this world and attraction to them because one's gaze is fixed upon the Beloved. Love alone draws the soul forward. Indeed, it is by the grace of God that we make that initial turn towards Him and so begin to see with a greater clarity the inconstancy that sin brings into our life and the healing, the hope, and the joy that faith alone provides.   Our senses and our natural faculties that we use constantly to perceive the world around us often become a source of distortion because of the weakening of our will and the darkening of our intellect. And even if these faculties should function perfectly, they still are incapable of comprehending God as he is in himself.   When faith begins to grow, we begin to see the presence of God in all things and his Providence acting on our behalf. Love, seeks union and communion and perfect Love is present in our lives in a transformative fashion. We need not fear affliction, poverty, or the hatred of others knowing that we are loved with a perfect love. We are never in isolation when we are in Christ through faith and the grace that he provides us. The inconstancy of sin is replaced with the stability and fearlessness of faith. The world can take everything from us, including our honor, and yet we find no loss in it. With St Paul we count all things as refuse in comparison to knowing Jesus Christ and him crucified. Isaac wants a to understand the need to be fully immersed in this love, to be inebriated by it and permeated by it so that it shapes our entire existence. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:02:32 Paisios: Baptismal. One moment I'll get headphones. 00:09:33 Una: I see we have a dog and cat in attendance tonight 00:09:45 Una: Very Franciscan 00:09:59 Una: Are they keen on Isaac? 00:14:26 Bob Čihák, AZ: P. 114, # 7 00:16:53 Paisios: Reacted to "Are they keen on I..." with ❤️ 00:22:00 Eric Jobe: There is an emphasis here on “perception” (rgeshta), which he repeats, a perception of the power of faith versus the perception of visible matter. I think this keys into the notion of being drunk. When we are drunk, we lose perception. If we are drunk with faith, we lose perception of worldly things and become perceptive to spiritual things. 00:22:07 Una: How does this paragraph fit with the essence/energy ? 00:23:10 Una: Thank you 00:23:40 Jamie: Reacted to "There is an emphas..." with

It bears saying that we find ourselves upon a privileged path as we begin this new journey with Saint Isaac the Syrian. To have access to his writings and access to such a translation in the West is a recent phenomenon and one not to be taken lightly. Further it is often said that Isaac is the greatest of the Desert Fathers in that through his writings one can move from being a novice in the spiritual life to the heights of contemplation. Immediately, one discovers that Isaac is unique and distinctive in his manner of approaching the spiritual life. He appeals to our capacity in faith to comprehend divine love and what has been revealed to us through Christ. It is what we comprehend in faith that fills the heart with wonder; that we are embraced by a love that never ends and that only seeks to raise us up out of the darkness of sin to the fullness of light. Isaac understands that, made in the image and likeness of God, we are going to be driven by desire; that is, a sense of lack and incompleteness. God has made us for himself and we only find our identity and the fullness for which we long in him. Our struggle is our attachment to the things of this world, including our own ego – the self. There are so many things that vie for our attention that the “one thing necessary” is often pushed out to the margins of our life or out of mind altogether. The love out of which we have been created and the lavish love through which we have been redeemed is often supplanted by that which eventually turns to dust. Our awareness of this should produce within us a fear that creates a movement toward God. Repentance is simply or acting on that awareness; turning away from our sin and our attachment to the things of this world and opening ourselves up to the healing grace and mercy of God. It is for this reason that Isaac does not focus on the development of virtue and the overcoming of vice as others do. For ultimately, we are not seeking the perfection of natural virtue or even to exceed what we understand as the heights of virtue. Rather, we are to understand the ascetic life is radically tied to being “in Christ”. In other words, the radical transformation that takes place through the grace that we receive through baptism, the Eucharist, and through the gift of the Holy Spirit leads to our participation in the life of the Trinity. Deification is what has been promised to those of faith. It is divine humility, divine love, divine compassion, and divine vulnerability that we are to embody. This takes place not through raw grit but rather through abandonment to Christ in a spirit of humility. As we let go of the illusion of self identity, independent of Christ, the true self begins to emerge.  Thus if we take anything away from this evening's discussion and reflection it should be the sense of wonder and desire that Isaac seeks to cultivate within the human heart. Love alone endures and the desire it produces inflames the heart to pursue the Beloved and the Life of the Kingdom. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:15:34 Bob Cihak: Father's Substack comments are another blessing for me. The come by email to me, several times daily and are beautifully succinct, most of the time. 00:17:15 Sr. Mary Clare: Thank you, Father! 00:36:18 Ren Witter: Sr. Barbara - would you mind sending your question to the whole group in the chat so that the people reading/listening to the podcast know what you asked? (I think your question must have been sent directly to Fr. Charbel). 00:36:30 mflory: The whole first paragraph is a chain of practices/virtues: reflection on the “restitution” (providence/the second coming) leads to withdrawal from the world which leads to control of thoughts which leads to faith which leads to fear of God which leads to virtue. 00:36:33 Jamie: Reacted to "Sr. Barbara - woul..." with

We come to the end of this journey with St John Climacus knowing that it is also only the beginning. What joy has come through sitting at the feet of St. John for these few years and to be led along the path that brings us to Christ and the freedom to give ourselves in love and receive love.  In these final paragraphs about the qualities and the responsibilities of a spiritual elder, what shines forth most brightly is the absolute and complete love that the elder must have for those in his care. The love of Christ that burns within his heart must embrace and give warmth to all those he guides and be a true source of light for them. There are times where he may have to be strict and forceful yet the love dwells within his heart, like divine love, is curative not punitive. Divine love offers itself completely, lavishly, allowing itself to be broken and poured out for others. Thus, the elder must have ever before him those in his charge; so much so that purity of heart allows him to see their needs and suffering and compels him to come to their aid.  There will be many times when he must carry those in his charge to the Lord through his own example, his hidden sufferings and constant prayer. Like a parent, there will be moments when he must take them by the hand and guide them one step at a time along the narrow path that leads to the kingdom. Despite the fact that the kingdom of heaven dwells within us, the journey is often toilsome.  Left to ourselves, we may never find the narrow gate or enter.  The elder must be long suffering; that when the lack of dispassion in others pierces his heart like a sword his response is like the Divine Judge - restraining himself and looking at others only with compassion. He must be willing to receive and take up upon his shoulders of the burden of his office as Christ took upon himself the burden of the cross and he must not despise the wounds that may come through rejection and betrayal. The elder's love must run so deep that intuitively he knows the sufferings of those in his care even before they speak of them to him. Without hesitation and quickly, he seeks to apply the healing balm.  And perhaps most powerful and beautiful of all - - in the end, the elder must acknowledge that he must decrease in order that Christ might increase within his children's hearts. There will come a time when they no longer need human instruction because they have given their hearts to the Lord and are guided by His Spirit. Blessed are those who bring others to Christ and whose guidance passes on from generation to generation. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:12:41 Bob Cihak: P. 260, # 89 00:17:46 Anna Lalonde: It was a complete blessing the four months I was in religious life! Transformed my prayer life. 00:19:12 Joanne Martínez : Joanne Martínez here, just signed on 00:19:55 Bob Cihak: P. 260, # 89 00:20:13 Joanne Martínez : Reacted to "P. 260, # 89" with

I was struck this evening not only with the wisdom of St. John's counsel in regard to the care of souls, but also the beauty of the heart of the Shepherd that emerges as we read through the text. Only a heart that has been conformed to Christ and a life that in every way has become prophetic in the sense of bearing witness to the love, humility, and obedience of the kingdom can give itself over to the care of other souls. The role of an elder is not simply to instruct, reprove and guide but above all to love. His affection for those in his care as well as for all people must lead him to console others as he himself has been consoled. He approaches this reality not with a spirit of condescension but rather as one who has been humbled by life and his own poverty and lifted up by the mercy of Christ. It is a spirit of gratitude that leads him to enter into the struggle of others with a spirit of generosity. He feels no revulsion at the sight of sin or weakness. Rather, it draws his attention and draws forth from his heart, compassion and mercy.  One of the most striking things we considered this evening was the nature of obedience. St. John tells us that it is the very definition of obedience to be fearless and to have no anxiety about anything at all. The truly obedient heart of an elder can calmly guide, direct, and comfort others without saying a single word. It is this reality that we are to embody in our lives; whether priest, religious, married or single. The best and the beautiful are meant for all and that which comes to us from the hand of our Lord must be freely extended to others. Thus, to have the care of souls is part of the very nature of Christian life. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:08:38 Bob Cihak: P. 257, # 64 00:15:03 Wayne: The idea of repentance is the major focus of the Eastern practise. 00:21:51 Myles Davidson: "Flee from discussions of dogma as from an unruly lion" St. Isaac the Syrian 00:23:43 Bob Cihak: Reacted to ""Flee from discussio..." with

The counsel and the guidance that St. John offers in this letter is unparalleled. His understanding of the role of the spiritual elder and the nature and manner of engaging those in his responsibility is deep and astute, both psychologically and spiritually. Yet what stands out the most in this letter is the dynamic that must exist between the spiritual elder and those in his care. The Abbot or the elder could never be described as an administrator or a master platoon leader in the military. Simply put, he is to be an embodiment of Christ to those in his care, being willing to lay down his life on their behalf. It is crucified love that saves and redeems us, and it is the same love that must guide the words and actions of one who has been given the responsibility for the care of others. What drives the heart of such an elder is the understanding of the care that he himself has been given, the consolation that God has offered to him. These realities move him to share what he himself has received an abundance. In fact to fail to do so is a reflection of a lack of charity as well as gratitude. By nature, a spiritual elder longs to help those in his care to avoid the pitfalls that the Evil One places before them in the spiritual life. He must be sensitive to the most subtle movements among the members of his community and the spirit that is manifesting itself among them.  Likewise, driven by love he must foster a sense of generosity between the members of the community and those in his care. He cannot allow himself the luxury of treating everyone the same - any more than a parent addresses the needs of their children in a mechanical fashion. St. John tells us “the overseers must heed to the sowing of the seed: to the season, person, quality, and quantity.” The elder must nurture and nourish as need demands. And finally, the one who does this in the fullest measure acts in a hidden fashion so that all glory and gratitude is directed toward God.  May God give us such faithful shepherds! --- Text of chat during the group: 00:10:09 Suzanne Romano: I just this minute received word that Bishop Richard Williamson passed away this evening. Please pray for his immortal soul. 00:10:54 Anna Lalonde: Are you moving there? 00:11:06 Anna Lalonde: In California 00:11:23 Anna Lalonde: Awesome 00:16:20 David: One thing I like about my Dad who keeps a saying from my Grandfather is when someone says thank you. He always says No thank God I am able. A small detail but I have come to appreciate it more with age and now do the same 00:23:04 Zachary Morgan: alhamdulilah! 00:39:34 Anthony: This relationship of shepherd to sheep reminds me of the "royal priesthood" described by St Ephrem in The Cave of Treasures.  Adam and his successor priest-kings on the mount of paradise took the care of all the faithful in their hands....until the numbers of faithful dwelling on the mountain dwindled, going into the plain and mingling with Cain's people.....and then God sent the Flood. 00:40:09 David: When I taught at a catholic school in Spain one of my mentors used to say there two types of teachers: One that seeks control and power and the other is one who learns more than the students about himself and faith. 00:51:50 Joseph Muir: For those who don't have the book, the two quotes at the end of the last paragraph come from the prophets Jeremiah and Obadiah, respectively 00:54:57 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "For those who don't ..." with

The deeper that we go into this letter, the more we begin to see the necessary qualities of an elder. In our society, we often value what seems to be productive. Yet what St. John emphasizes is the heart of the elder. One cannot offer care to another soul unless they have struggled long and hard with their own passions and are able to look at those who come to them through the lens of compassion, humility, and the love of Christ.  Repeatedly, we are shown the care that the elder must exhibit in his approach to those who come to him. He cannot be easily agitated when anger or hostility are directed toward him. Nor can he show disgust at the past or present behavior of another. He does not condescend, but rather makes himself the servant of one like himself – one who knows the deep wounds of sin; often wounds that are self inflicted.  Therefore, John tells us it is not right for a lion to pasture sheep, and it is not safe for a man who is still subject to the passions to rule over passionate men. One who does not seek to tend to the wounded, but rather to rule - one who does not seek to lead by example, but rather instruct with force - is going to be a gross distortion of the image of Christ. The elder must have the greatest sensitivity to the needs and the struggles of those who come to him, realizing that there is great variety and difference between individuals. Thus, an elder must be the most obedient and humble of souls; that is, he must have a refined ability to hear the truth, to hear the word of God spoken in his heart, and he must possess discernment that is born of humility. An elder can only see in others what he has contemplated in himself.  His awareness of the wounds that others bear only help him to understand that they are his responsibility. He approaches others not in a detached fashion, but as one who shares deeply in their sorrow and desires their healing as he desires his own. In this, St. John tells us Christ is the standard. The elder must receive all that is thrust upon him with the same selfless love that we witness on the cross. It is here that we begin to understand that John is not simply speaking about monks. He speaks to all of us and the necessity of taking Christ at his word; to love others as he has loved us, to be willing to lay down our lives for others, including those who treat us like enemies. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:09:11 Anna Lalonde: Pray because I was just anointed. Been not well since late Sept. 00:10:02 Janine: Yes Anna…I will pray for you! 00:10:09 Bob Cihak, AZ: Replying to "Pray because I was j..." Will do. God bless you. 00:10:50 Rebecca Thérèse: Reacted to "Pray because I was j..." with

One of the reasons that I've decided to prolong our study by reading this letter of St. John Climacus is that it speaks to our hearts about not only our interior life, the struggle with the passions and the growth of the virtues, but it also exhorts us - warning us that the care of others in love, our concern for their spiritual well-being trumps all things. In other words, our spiritual life cannot lead us to become self focused. Rather, it is meant to create hearts that are selfless and attentive to others and their needs.  What St John says about the care of souls and the responsibilities of spiritual elders he says to all of us. The consolation that we have received from Christ and the wisdom that he has bestowed upon us in our spiritual life and through experience is not our own possession. We seek to console as we have been consoled. We seek to protect as we have been protected by the grace of God and the guidance that we have received at the hands of others. The Church is not a business nor is it to function like one. We come to Church and receive the Sacrament not to “take something” for ourselves. We are drawn into the very life of the Holy Trinity and our “Amen” when receiving this gift means that we are saying “so be it” - let this be the reality in my life!  Like the good Shepherd, I will lay down my life for the good of others. We can never set aside our identity to fit in with society, any more than a spiritual elder can set aside his responsibility and his role of guiding and forming others. Therefore, this letter we are reading is not simply a pious exhortation but rather a call to revolution; that is, a call to radical repentance. We must turn to God in every way in order that by His grace we might love others as He has loved us. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:04:54 susan: asking prayers for my son peter and 16 week pregnant wife in la brea la below fires. 00:11:19 Rebecca Thérèse: Reacted to "asking prayers for m..." with

As one moves along through this text, one begins to understand that St. John Climacus is not only addressing elders but all those who have the care of souls. Fundamentally this is every Christian!There is no radical individualism in our faith, nor do we see ourselves disconnected from the sins of others and the burdens they bear. Love, compels us to be attentive to the other; not in a condescending fashion, but attending to them with the tenderness and compassion that we have received from Christ. Our Lord is the archetype for us and the consolation that we receive from his hand we are to offer to others freely. The fundamental virtues of an elder are humility and obedience; that is, truthful living and the capacity to listen. How can one serve others when there is any focus on the self or when they are still in the grip of the passions? There is  nothing so unseemly as an angry elder - one who looks at others with a harsh eye or is always quick to investigate trifling sins. The elder must be driven by love that makes him ever vigilant and watchful of those things that can be obstacles to the spiritual development of those in his care. He cannot be lax in fulfilling this responsibility or timid and cowardly in offering correction. He must be willing to offer counsel even when there is no thirst for understanding.  One begins to understand that such a responsibility is carried out with fear and trembling. The care of souls carries within it the Cross; it is crucified love that guides the elder and gives light to his path.  He is never a passive observer, but one who like Christ looks out and acknowledges the crowds as being sheep without a shepherd; in fact, as sheep already mauled by the wolves and in desperate need of healing. Thus, the capacity to care for others in this fashion is not something that can be set aside; nor can the abilities that God has given to an elder be buried in the ground with drawing down His wrath. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:09:34 Una: Does Father send out handouts in email? 00:10:08 Una: Could I get one at Una.McManus@gmail.com? 00:10:25 Adam Paige: https://mcusercontent.com/c38acab568d650f7ef65f39df/files/22eb6d8c-a2f9-1ed8-1270-b5bcd86c22f6/To_the_Shepherd.01.pdf 00:10:31 Una: Thank you 00:10:43 Adam Paige: Reacted to "Thank you" with

Sometimes during a group it is as if a light comes on that illuminates some aspect of life in a magnificent fashion and that speaks to each person in the group whatever their background or station in life. This was true in particular this evening as we continued to discuss St. John's writing “To the Shepherd” on the responsibilities of a spiritual elder. As we made our way through the text, it became clear that St. John's teaching about the care of souls applies to all of those who are responsible for the formation of others; not only priests or religious, but also parents, teachers, friends, etc.  Not one of us is free from the charge of the salvation of others; aiding them through our prayers, taking opportune moments to clarify their understanding of the faith, being living witnesses of the gospel and the love of the cross. All of us have the responsibility of seeking purity of heart and freedom from the passions in order that we might be able to discern with clarity and humility the needs of those around us. Lacking this, St. John tells us, we undermine our capacity to be well disposed and compassionate to each individual for whom we are responsible or who enters our life. How is it that we can serve others if we cannot discern good from evil and everything in between? In fact, St. John tells us it is a great disgrace for a superior to pray for or hold forward spiritual gifts to others that he himself is not acquired. How is it that he can faithfully guide others to God and to become partakers of the glory of God if he has no understanding of this within his own heart. Experience is the truest teacher and if the superior lacks that experience, he may only bring harm to others. Those who are spiritual elders, fathers, or mothers, must not be tempted to set aside this role in order to enjoy worldly friendship with those in their charge. It can be a natural thing to want companionship and to some extent this can exist. However, if a familiarity develops between the superior and others, he may lose the capacity to guide and feel constrained to do the bidding of others; never to contradict them, refuse them, or correct them. The elder must be pure of heart and able to understand the interior life and also the realities that sanctify us within the life of the church. The elder must be able to create a culture that forms a mind and heart directed toward God, the love of neighbor and the love of virtue. He must be able to discern the emotional capacity and maturity of others, so as not to push too hard and risk breaking their spirit or neglect giving counsel or correction of those who are quick witted and naturally gifted. Such purity of heart alone allows the elder to perceive supernatural realities and to understand the struggles that individuals have with multiple demons. The elder must be able to cure passions thought by others to be incurable. In this sense, he must have truly put on the mind of Christ and be the most humble and obedient member of the community. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:02 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 251, # 14   00:19:16 carol_000: Is much known about the repentance of Joseph's brothers or God chastising them for their treatment of Joseph   00:26:27 David: I think this is a big problem also in families. My oldest son felt I was often to hard on him. Now that he is 27 he has mentioned several times that I was the only one that loved him and was always there. It is really hard but being a father is different than being a friend only there to enjoy the good times and not try to guide someone to what has value.   00:28:48 Art: Reacted to "I think this is a bi..." with

We continued our reading and discussion of the treatment and cures that the spiritual father must understand for every malady that afflicts a person in the spiritual life. He must understand not only how to apply them but also the manner they are applied to each individual person with their unique needs. No person is the same and in the spiritual battle the elder must understand the subtle manifestations of spiritual illness and the manner in which various cures might be applied. One of the most striking aspects of tonight's discussion was on the capacity of the elder to be free from and endure nausea and to be able to untiringly strive to dispel the stench of vomit. Of course, St. John is speaking about sin itself and the willingness of the elder to enter into the darkness in which the other person finds himself; to descend into their hell and to endure the stench of sin itself. The capacity to do this comes through engaging in the spiritual battle throughout the course of one's life and attending in obedience to the counsel of one's own spiritual father. The lack of nausea and the ability to endure the stench of the vomit of sin comes from having long been immersed in it through one's own struggles. Compassion is born in a powerful way through the experience of common trials.  Beyond this, St. John tells that the shepherd must experience blessed dispassion. In other words, he must be free of the passions that would blind him and his ability to discern the particular needs of those in his care. This discernment allows the elder to illuminate the path that leads to repentance and so gives him the capacity to “resurrect every dead soul”. This is the identity that every Christian soul should seek to embrace. While it's true that not everyone is called to be a spiritual elder, every Christian by virtue of their baptism is called to the holiness described here and given the responsibility for the care of souls in their midst. We are responsible for the salvation and goodwill of those around us as much as we are responsible for our own. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:04:47 Anna Lalonde: Well my kids learned to walk up our hallway wall today so you up for that Father?